find that stillness those moments all the time does the presence of of nature have any particular value in in the way you would see a context that is favorable to stillness and by nature i mean we're affecting nature there isn't much wilderness left uh man mankind gets his um gets his hands everywhere but what i'm wondering is in a world where we're very much surrounding surrounded by our own artifacts things are made they're manufactured they're altered by human beings that world is very much upon us as opposed to as you mentioned earlier a walk outside in the woods a brook birds how can we achieve this uh this stillness even in a world of total artifact yes i think we can i think we can so we don't want to get too romantic about nature no no and i think there's a great danger that we somehow romantically identify meditation with mountaintops and forests and all this stuff well those are the pictures you get from some of the chinese zen masters of course of course there is um and there's a reason for that certainly there is a quality of stillness when one and a quality of just the sheer sort of mystery and glory of life itself that we find say in a quiet field full of flowers or in a pine forest or on a mountaintop there is something enormously inspiring about that and i think that it's valuable that we do reconnect with that natural life but the danger then is to mistake is to enter is to get confused and think well that's really you know where it's at and as soon as i get back into the city then it's back to hell that's wrong that the buddha described he said all dharmas are as it were of the same taste all phenomena all phenomena all phenomena in this context yes dharmas are phenomena all phenomena have the same taste in other words whether we are in an utterly um artifact driven sort of place like a on top of a skyscraper in a in an office lit entirely by fluorescent lights and staring at a computer screen that is still um we're still encounter entering the same you know the same basically sense data that are impinging upon our experience and there's no reason why that could not be a context for enlightenment any more than the rather classic romantic notion of sitting by a waterfall in a beautiful chinese forest and that is where the dharma the practice of spirituality or wherever really needs to be most uh finely honed and brought into the working place of people and not romantically identified with something else now in the united states we have a fundamental principle called the separation of church and state and this very much conditions the kind of education that the state can make available do you see any problem with that um it's a good question in england in england we don't have that division as you know and what that has led to recently in britain is a reform of the education act in which by the age of 16 every child who leaves this leaves the state education system must be familiar with the ideas of the six basic religions of britain which now include hinduism islam buddhism jainism sikhism as well as christianity and judaism now there's something i think rather good about that it means that in the actual educational environment in the school system children are at least exposed to these other possibilities and they're not being exposed to exclusively a dominant religious um tradition say as would be christianity so there is a pluralism of religious awareness spiritual awareness entering into the state system but on the other hand i must admit i do rather admire the separation of church and state in america and um but i feel very ambivalent about how about it really the thing for me really is the question as to whether buddhism really is a religion or whether it has degraded into a religion the problem with the state approach in britain for example is that it assumes that buddhism is of the same order as say islam or sikhism and that it is presented to children as being something that is some metaphysical belief system that one can choose or not to choose and also something that is very much present in certain ethnic minority communities so it gives a rather distorted image of buddhism and and that is not necessarily a good thing so um i don't know i think that if we really question this we might find that buddhism and even perhaps some of the other movements that we call religions are actually much broader than that they are as it were cultural forms that have religious components and so what i'm arguing in my book at the moment in fact is that buddhism is perhaps more adequately seen as a culture that includes religion but is not reducible to it now what do you mean by religion in this well i'm using i'm using saying there's something about buddhism which is religion and which isn't and then i was thinking well maybe the same could be said about christianity yes indeed the religious element is that of let's say belief primarily and i find myself often in interfaith dialogues for example and it seems to and i'm addressed in that context as a believer as somebody who presumably has a world view that he or she can neither prove nor disprove that they accept on trust that is given to them by some other authority let's say for example the views about rebirth and karma in buddhism or heaven and hell in christianity and buddhism in that sense is seen as a religion in the sense that i i choose to believe things that i cannot i haven't experienced i do not know about but i accept on trust now to that extent i do not consider myself a religious person because i'm not prepared to take that kind of irrational step but the way religion um has the way things have become really religions i think can often be seen as a degradation of a spirit of inquiry that in all the root of many of these great traditions we find not an insistence upon people believing certain things but rather an opening to people questioning their lives in a particular way it's the questions i feel that are more important not the answers aldous huxley once said to me after a speech he gave in san francisco on the mind he well he'd spoken about how education was so deficient in the modern world and it was just going about it in the entirely wrong way and that another aspect of the human being had to be engaged if education was really going to be useful and i scratched my head i didn't know exactly what he was referring to and after the speech as he walked out of the room i said well what are you talking about is there something i could read and he referred me to zen i believe it's zen mind zen bones the collection of koans and stories by rap raps paul raps i think it was this was 61 so it would have been that um pocketbook so i i want to bring that back in the context even if you're studying religions as historical narratives that's not really what huxley had in mind and i don't think that's what you have in mind there there is a way to engage the person uh that that that fosters character and that will actually come to terms with issues like fear and greed and envy and uh and and such vices and and and that's not a narrative that's something else so if we're uh barred from going over the line from narrative into that something else where does that leave education i think in this sense i feel education is once again very much about reconnecting with the primary questions that we ask rather than simply learning certain answers to those questions that have been preserved in say the religions and the practice of of both buddhism and i think all the the great religions really is really about being aware of what of the very root question what does it mean to live what is it that a human life is for and if we reconnect with that question i think we reconnect with something very essential within ourselves and through meditation for example we also open ourselves to the possibility of another response and it's that response that i'm interested in and that response is not something that can simply be dictated by the traditional forms of of religion but i think it's something that needs to be a response that comes from the the very individual nature of our concrete experience here and now so meditation can take us to a point in which we reconnect with that question and it can open us to the possibilities of an imaginative and a creative response that is one that addresses the needs of our of our life what we are going to we are going to have to take a break we'll come back i want to push a little deep deeper into this question of of how should young people be educated i mean we're all young in the sense that we need to further learning and if you're calling for meditation to come to terms with what is the how how should one live can we have an educational system that ignores that that practice and and what about all that we'll uh get into it when we come back i'm talking to steven bachelor this is we the people we'll be right back and you're tuned to listener supported commercial free radio wbai in new york 99.5 fm coming up at 8 p.m about 20 minutes or so off the hook with emmanuel goldstein followed by housing notebook produced by scott somer city in exile at 10 p.m tonight on city in exile hisu ku and andrea clare speak with the editors of concrete jungle reconsidering nature in the city some other subjects some other guests as well as poisoned arts at 10 45 if you're a late night worker or an early morning riser tune in to night drum with brother shine at 3 30 a.m back to we the people with jerry brown you're back with we the people this is jerry brown if you wish to get in touch or support we the people our number is 800-426-1112 we also have tapes of these shows this one or uh those that have taken place before you can contact us by using the 800 number in the studio steven bachelor the author of buddhism without beliefs the awakening of the west and the faith to doubt is here and we're talking about really the basic stuff on what it is to live how we confront our ignorance our hatred and our desires um a little more on this education business where um because nothing really can be more important than the context of learning starting out at our most formative years and now you are in an educational setting for people in their 20s and above but before that we're picking up a lot of conditioning so do you have any thoughts on on how you would like to see that that situation of learning uh show up and take place well i think one of the things that perhaps could be brought more into the school education system is something akin to meditation i know there's a great reluctance amongst um educators to even embrace that idea but remember in america you can you can have your own schools you can have you can have homeschooling so we're totally free here right okay so what is really up for question is how to design the setting uh for younger people and then after we talk about that of course i'm going to want to know what about us at 60 or 40 it i don't think it's time to stop well i think there are two things that conventional state education at least in europe does not offer children and that is um the capacity to ask questions that do not have readily available answers in other words let's say spiritual questions um but outside a religious context to get in touch with the very to remain in touch with the mystery of life i mean what's wonderful about small children is that they have this natural um sense of wonder this natural sense of awe and it almost seems that the education system is designed to get rid of that to get them into being nice rational clear-headed ambitious consumers and um professionals and so on i have a hunch that's what huxley was talking about could well have been and and i know when i was a kid i had this always had this funny feeling when i was at school that what really mattered to me was never talked about i had this funny feeling that um that that my existence that the fact i didn't use that language of course but that the my own life was never really addressed that i was learning about things but i was never really given a language or a a practice that would actually address that question well when i was in public school originally i started out in public school and then in the fifth grade i went to a catholic school but in there those first years uh i also had to go to catechism class once or twice a week and that was in the basement of a church and it was kind of a i don't know musty place a little bit dark and they had these pictures of of saints and stories from the bible and noah's ark and i can still recall uh that this seemed to be about some some kind of reality or some something that seemed very special and something that i wanted to know a lot more about and that's probably why ultimately i went and entered a seminary when after i'd gotten out of high school uh but it's it's that there's a sense in which in the programmed order of standardization which is the school that there's a lot the intuition emotions spiritual whatever the words are we need to be pointing at something else right is that how would you frame that or how would you react to that well yeah i have a very similar experience i was actually my my family was was humanist and they excluded me from all religious education as a child but the thing that the story that really hit me when i was about 14 or 15 was the story of plato's cave and this came in a one of these classes that was really just a one-off thing and that story really hit me and the in other words stories that really point to the very questions of life itself but it's all very well i think to bring in those questions but there also i think needs to be some kind of education in ways in which we can be with those questions and allow those questions to be real for us now that's what you call practice yeah um practice meditation and we don't even have to use the word meditation but cultivating a skill to be still and to be quiet rather than to be active and to be busy our education system oh go ahead our education system seems to be almost entirely designed towards being active to being busy and to as it were achieving certain levels of acquisition of knowledge and to engaging only a part of yourself only engaging well in the intellect effectively and there's not really what has recently been called an the cultivation of an emotional intelligence or a spiritual intelligence and that i think is really what is lacking engaging the intellect would you say that's a good no i mean i don't think it is so i shouldn't even phrase the question that way it that does not seem like a way to to build character no i don't think it does and particularly for people who are not as it were temperamentally intellectual there are for people who are then i think that can be a very enriching and very valuable way but it more or less privileges a certain type of person the intellectual it our system devalues people who are primarily relating to life through their feelings through their emotions through their intuitions and those capacities are as it were subordinated entirely to the preeminence of intellect so sitting with living with facing confronting the questions of of who am i what what is what is it to be a human being those are certainly not going to show up in the increasingly standardized dispensing of complex data that schools represent no and nor can they be assessed in any way that could be done through an exam system that you can't as it were become an expert in that you can't test it you don't think we could have national standards i don't think so well then and yet on the one hand there's a call for national standards in this country from all sides and on the other there's a bemoaning about essentially bad character that's what crime is all about that's what family values uh talk is all about there there's a a a a widespread sense that character is is deficient there's a loss of of good character good habits and on the other hand there seems to be a complete um confusion about how to actually i don't know if the word is instill character that has a kind of a a catholic ring to it authoritarian ring or be or create a context where character can naturally evolve well could it be also that in emphasizing the intellect in the educational process we are as it were excluding character to some degree that if we could find a way of educating in which all aspects of the person were addressed and um somehow nurtured then i think we would have the foundation for character and what is character anyway i mean it's uh it's not something you can as it were program people with i think character emerges out of an experience of the fullness of one's life rather than feeling oneself boxed into some compartment and particularly if one say is not intellectually inclined then a very artificial compartment in terms of who one is that understandably will lead to some kind of rebellion some kind of alienation from what is expected of you and that i think it's a question of coming down to those very basic experiences we all have of being in a body being with emotions being with feelings being able to be still with that being able to accept what's going on being able to acknowledge and just um rejoice in a way the fact that we are here at all and that is mysterious well let's take take up this basic question being here it's fragile it's durable on one hand but just walk outside you get hit by a car wrong kind of a microbe we're we're very sick so so fear uh is not something that well of course i'm fearful now how do we get at fear well i think are you promising that through meditation we're going to have fear won't be such a such a big deal possibly let's take for example the whole issue of death now this is something that is not addressed in the school system in the school system everybody all the kids presumably know they're going to die at some point but the whole reality of death the acknowledgement that life entails death the fact that one's life is not just about some the achievement of some kind of endless scale of success and ambition but is one that will ultimately and inevitably end in one's not being here at all could we find ways in education to actually open children to that wholeness of life which includes death that i think would already begin to touch on some of the very deepest anxieties that human beings experience both as children and as they grow older and yet there's no context there's no um structure in our system whereby we can really educate people to be with those anxieties and to be with those fears and to as it were really accept themselves in that totality and that too could have something to do with character as it's called and that i think is a strength of say some of the of the religious traditions catholicism or whatever is that there is that much stronger sense of death there is that sense that this is not the only experience we'll ever have well and that is so lost now okay now this is not the only experience we'll ever have so you're talking about life after death uh well how do you deal with this issue of dying well i would not deal with it in terms of trying to construct some theory of what it is that happens after death my own idea is in fact that by whatever theories we have as to what happens after death be it a theory of um reincarnation or be it a theory of entering a christian paradise or be it a theory of everything simply stopping and there being nothing that all of those are theories all of those are conceptual devices to deal with what is essentially mysterious and i think all those views whether eternalistic or nihilistic are in some way a denial of death that death is the great mystery and by trying to contain it with any any human theory we have as it were locked it into a category of the intellect and that may be consoling and it may be satisfying in some way but i wonder if it really does address the reality of death all right the ending of life okay so how if we're not going to be consoled by some construct of what's in store for us how does one do with the fear of of death because it's certainly a very real fear i think it has to do with learning to accept the unknown learning to accept that our lives and our deaths are not things that we can predict are not things that we can have any kind of rational uh constraint over and once more learning to simply be still with what is if we can learn to be accepting of the mystery of this moment which contains an extraordinary unknown the meditation i don't keep harking back to meditation but whatever we call it this capacity to be still and to be open with what is now is already an acceptance of what is unknown as the mind becomes more still as we begin to look more carefully just say at the the feelings in our own body we realize more and more that what we've taken for granted as familiar is in another sense simultaneously profoundly unfamiliar the very fact that we are here the very fact that we exist is already utterly unfamiliar in a sense and that is already the unknown and western education is so much about seeking to contain everything within the known and to define everything as knowable and it's a flight from the um the challenge of life as mystery the challenge of life as unknown how about pain now you're talking now about the fear of death the fear of the unknown yeah pain is very clear yes it's not pleasant it can be excruciating yes how do you deal with that well pain too is there is of course the sheer physicality of pain which is unpleasant but i think there's also an enormous element that we as it were add on to that by resisting it by fearing it by hating it the more that we as it were seek to distance ourselves from it to deny it the more in fact paradoxically that actually intensifies it so again i think uh an education occasional process that would actually address the issue of pain that would allow us to as it were be able to be with pain rather than to encourage this instinctive aversion to it or this instinctive idea that if there's pain we can find some way to nullify it numb it tranquilize it through drugs or whatever whatever it is that very strategy i think is one that serves to make pain all that more unacceptable all that more deniable didn't buddha start with the experience that life is suffering the buddha started with the experience well life is suffering is not something the buddha himself actually said the first truth of the buddha is there is anguish i prefer the word anguish to suffering suffering is too broad it's an acknowledgement and an acceptance and an understanding that life is imperfect that we um the very fact of death for example is an indication of imperfection that um that is where we begin yes with the acceptance and the acknowledgement of anguish that doesn't mean that we passively say oh well it's too bad it's the way things are but it's really a learning to be with anguish and that's let's say the existential anguish of existence as well as the the fears and the pains that we go through in life to as it were enter into a more uh accepting and creative relationship with pain that is where we begin yes now is this going to lead to some kind of activism or as was often uh put in the books that i read about buddhism in my earlier years just passivity okay get into one's own mind and people dying and starving and social injustice all that's okay because you're dealing with all these inner states of your own mind well that is of course a rather stereotype view of buddhism that is still very prevalent but it comes very much from the ways in which buddhism was negatively perceived very much in the 19th century by both christian missionaries and by western rationalists the if you look at this history of buddhism there certainly have been periods in which buddhism has fallen prey to introversion and so on but also periods in which buddhism has been at the forefront of social and political change in asia the question of anguish really then is about starting and with the immediate personal experience of that but as one's experience of anguish becomes as it were more accepted one begins to realize that it's not just my anguish that suffering the pain is beyond the domain of me and there comes the compassion exactly yes okay and on that note we're going to have to stop uh stephen bachelor thank you very much thank you jerry author of buddhism without beliefs the faith to doubt the awakening of the west and jim bennett for engineering thank you very much and mo erwin for producing good night on august 16th join us in a walk and demonstration through bedford stuyvesant brooklyn a walk to honor our political prisoners and prisoners of war mumia abu jamal matulu shakur bashir hamid abdul haq and many others fought for community control of schools they fought for safe streets they fought against drug dealers and they fought against police brutality they struggle for the liberation of the black nation participants will assemble at fulton park located at fulton street and stuyvesant avenue opposite boys and girls high school for more information call 718-949-5153 that's 718-949-5153 join us in a walk to honor our political prisoners of war this announcement is a public service of wbai radio on behalf of the malcolm x commemoration committee a non-profit community organization building bridges union summer radio brings you news of struggles around the country this summer featuring the participation of afl cio union summer youth and senior activists on august 11th we'll report on the cincinnati temp action project fighting for justice for temporary workers plus our interview with labor humorist michael moore author of downsize this and producer of tv nation so join building bridges for union summer radio monday august 11th from 2 to 3 p.m over wbai produced by mimi rosenberg and ken nash and the time is exactly eight o'clock you're listening to wbai in new york time once again for off the hook yes this is when the theme would normally be playing however due to the excitement of the last couple of weeks somehow we managed to lose it we don't know where it is i think it's someplace in the station but uh a search of three different studios and a few people that i suspected of something has turned up nothing but we're continuing the investigation in the meantime please a moment of silence for the lost theme right then okay here we are this is emmanuel goldstein the program is off the hook and this is our post post beyond hope if that sounds weird enough for you uh post beyond hope show where we talk about all the things that happened to us over the past weekend and hopefully you were involved in that too because boy it was fun it really was wow i'm i'm still kind of in awe of the whole thing but uh i i think we got about 2 000 people into the puck building over the entire weekend and uh most of them vast majority of them seem to have a really good time and there were a lot of really fascinating lectures seminars panels of all sorts we uh we managed to get uh for the first time ever kevin mitnick's lawyer speaking to a crowd telling the story about what happened uh with his case and where it's all going and what's happened in the past um we also had uh bernie s and fiber optic on the same stage but uh but separated by a partition uh because they're not allowed to actually speak to each other so it's kind of tricky doing that but we managed to pull it off uh the two of them were managed to tell their stories very interesting stories very interesting things going on there um the tap reunion took place on saturday about i think about 20 25 people which is about about the right size that uh we should have for something like that went to eddie's and uh talked about old times cheshire catalyst was there and uh he was uh he was very happy with uh with that whole thing um let's see we had uh we had all kinds of other other panels a panel on the metro card which you might have seen on the front page of yesterday's new york times boy i mean i wasn't even expecting this kind of uh this kind of coverage we're on abc news uh um let me see that let me see that paper here okay the front page the front page of the new york times uh monday august 11th what galls a hacker most the metro card now it was amazing because the metro card panel is only an hour out of the whole thing you know we had about uh 24 hours of panels alone because i ran from about 12 to 12 actually a little more than that because we had some things going on on friday as well uh but the metro card was only about an hour but that was uh what the media seemed to like the most i guess because it's it's local to new york it affects all new yorkers who who ride the trains and uh well it's just kind of uh kind of neat uh for them to to uh to watch us talk about this uh so that made the front page it was a very interesting panel too um and you the the the most amazing thing for me i mean for the whole weekend was the fact that that this pran showed up to take the photographs of of the of the metro card panel now if you don't know who this pran is you have to watch the killing field because that's the guy that made it through the whole pole pot horror and you know crawled out of the country after you know seeing millions and millions of millions of his fellow countrymen uh be be murdered uh that's the guy that uh that the film was about that a true hero and he's the one who shows up camera in hand working for the new york times to take a picture of us really it was very surreal but um that was uh just i guess the the mood of the whole thing what else do we have we had a we had a radio show obviously i don't know how many people listened to the radio show um that broadcast between 6 30 and 8 30 i was very surprised by how flawlessly that that went i mean we had a piece of equipment known as a zephyr unit that we were able to find you know these things are worth like 10 grand and we were up to just find one at a place that that rents them at really really low price i might add uh we had one at the radio station and we were able to link the two of them together over an isdn line which we had installed down there at the puck building just for that purpose and uh it worked great it sounded like we were right here in the studio except for the 500 people so kept laughing and applauding and things like that uh we had all kinds of neat people on there including uh major hacking yeah major john hacking out in the uh the hamptons who uh who runs a cookie company makes major hacking cookies which were a big hit over the weekend uh that was uh that was fascinating fascinating major in the army and uh makes cookies and his last name is hacking that's the kind of weekend it was just full of weirdness and fiber optic and tom from england who unfortunately had to go back to england uh joined us to talk about gsm phones omnipoint things like that in fact we're supposed to uh call fiber on the phone uh right about now let's see if we can reach him i i should point out though i should point out this was a weekend of nightmares concerning omnipoint and i'm i'm taking the gloves off all right i i a lot of other people are too because omnipoint just just continually lets us down in so many ways when you're trying to either make a phone call receive a phone call i would have to say walking around the streets of little italy and and soho and places like that mind you not inside buildings you don't expect the phones to work inside i guess because they you know the signal can't penetrate the brick but walking around the street you'd get a phone call you'd pick it up sometimes you'd even see the number of the person calling you but you couldn't hear them they could hear you you couldn't hear them there's a whole section of saint marks uh that uh you can make calls but you can't hear the person they can't hear you so it's a great way to prank people but uh not a really good way to uh to to use a telephone um it's it's very frustrating considering that you wind up paying for each and every one of those calls too but there was one thing one thing that almost made the whole mitnick thing not happen was the fact that uh that kevin mitnick's lawyer was supposed to leave the phone number he was reachable at which was at a remote mountain cabin somewhere in the in california because he was on vacation he was supposed to leave that on my phone number which uh you know would forward to voicemail if i wasn't around for whatever reason or if i was you know standing in a particular location where only point couldn't reach and uh lo and behold sunday came and their voicemail system just went down just was down you know not available at all you couldn't do anything with it you couldn't access your messages so his message was sitting in there and i couldn't get to it to find out what the phone number was so at least i thought his message was sitting there turns out it wasn't but it could have been and i was trying to find out you know what this number was not knowing this the status made things very very difficult and then of course you try to call them and it's uh it's that old you know 45 minute wait on hold but that's that's another thing let's see if we can reach fiber the reason i brought all this up was because we're trying to reach him over his omnipoint phone which for one reason or another uh oh that was my fault for one reason or another might be unreachable so okay now i have to mute these out okay here we go fiber optic hopefully will be joining us soon now it should go right uh should be ringing him somewhere wherever he is in the city bye-bye fiber hello fiber are you there speaking fiber this is not fiber please put fiber on on on the radio please oh uh fiber pass the phone to me well you're not fiber so i don't know why he did that please please put fiber on okay uh hello uh please put fiber on stop the nonsense uh which fiber we have fiber optic here we have optics fiber and fruit and fiber fiber fiber brand and fiber brand nobody cuss this is the radio hold on uh fiber fiber hi this is fiber who's speaking uh fiber are you there this is fiber yes hi how are you okay what's going on here who is who is actually here oh this is this is fiber uh-huh this is the original fiber uh-huh okay well while you guys are getting your act together i think we're going to talk in the studio some more with some of the people that were instrumental in making this thing happen oh unless you don't want to talk to the real there he is okay okay fiber where are you uh i'm in a car you're in a car yeah and uh we're driving away from a client and we're going to get get some dinner okay uh what are you in this state or are you somewhere else uh where we are in the northeastern corridor what in the world does that mean uh we're we're in the vicinity of new york uh-huh but i can't specifically tell you where for our job is covert okay no i we understand that and those of us who who follow the international uh headlines know that you know you guys have to keep your agendas to yourselves until the moment to strike or whatever however it works there but tell us let's let's keep our conversation focused on on beyond hope which took place this last weekend now you were there were you not yes i was at beyond hope okay you remember all the things that happened right oh yeah i remember each and every one okay it was uh it was interesting wasn't it it was uh it was different it was fun well i don't know if it was different but it was definitely fun okay um yeah we have fun all the time i wasn't at the first one right that's true the first one 1994 the right it was on planet earth conference yeah i was kind of incapacitated at the time you were in prison yes exactly you actually managed to call us during that one but this one you didn't have to call us because you were standing right there and uh you took part in the um in the prisoner panel and the gsm panel and the radio show of course on saturday night right uh was there anything else um the press panel with which there wasn't really any press there wasn't much press no there there wasn't too much of that but uh how would you assess the crowd how would you assess the whole mood of the place um well it was definitely a uh a wide variety of uh people from various walks of life uh-huh um they seem to be in generally in good cheer they were this is a this is a great crowd i mean yeah my my my heartiest of thanks go out to the people who showed up and and really just uh expressed the true hacker spirit of uh curiosity and and you know openness to things and it was just it really good to meet a lot of new people and see a lot of uh you know a lot of interesting uh interesting faces now did you see all the press we got yeah there was well i haven't seen uh too much of it yet but uh from what i've been hearing there's been quite a bit well you saw the front page of the new york times yesterday didn't you uh yeah unfortunately i heard about that why is it unfortunate that you heard about it i thought the uh i thought the one on the front page of the new york times uh was you're starting to sound like darth vader so i don't know i'm sorry yeah well that's the thing on the expressway in a car so it's possible you might get cut off at any time yes you know being the nature of modern technology and such being the nature of modern technology yes i i i can see that um well uh no um you were saying you you saw the the headline or you heard about it i thought that the the one that was on the front page of the times was the uh derogatory one no actually i don't think it was not it wasn't that derogatory i thought it actually captured quite a quite a bit um about that it was it was mostly about the metro guard right okay yeah i haven't actually seen that the one the one that uh the one i did see was the one that was in the uh times magazine okay there was that one too the times magazine right right but um uh yeah there was that one uh there was also uh abc news on on television on sunday had one um i think he's gone yeah he's gone it's on the point for you uh oh i just dropped my omnipoint phone yes i have an omnipoint phone but you know it's not going to last much longer i can tell you that because it's been so frustrating using these things listen to these ones hackers interface in new york three-day conference wants to dispel myths it's a confusing time to be a hacker on the one hand computer enthusiasts who thrill to breach security bypass firewalls and break sophisticated encryption are portrayed as nefarious geniuses who could bring down the nation's banking or military systems with a flick of the return key on the other they're courted by corporations to share their knowledge their favor curried by a government who wants to know their secrets it's inevitably led to a bit of an image crisis the consultant criminal conundrum the organizers of this weekend's beyond hope address those issues and more as the once shadowy leagues of hackers whose ranks grow every day go mainstream how do we go mainstream i don't think we went mainstream more than 1800 cyber rebels yes that's you rebel cyber rebels gathered at downtown new york's airy artsy puck building well it is airy it is artsy and it's the puck building all right uh so i guess that's kind of kind of okay uh to participate in three days of panels and discussions about the future of three days of panels and discussions about the future i guess it prints twice when you when you have two pages okay well they they didn't talk about the panels they talked about the future of the 21st century hacker panels include one on the public perception of the culture another was titled where hackers and criminals collide a sunday session expected to be popular and obviously uh after this article came out was called just prisoners that's the one uh that that fiber was involved in in fact let's let's not forget about fiber let's see if we can reach him again and of course one of the one of the most uh interesting ones was uh the social engineering panel but we'll get to that in just a moment hacking into anyone else's computers is illegal that's indisputable so a whole new lexicon is building around the activities of these computer whizzes hi this is mark i'm not around i guess uh i guess he's in that omnipoint unfriendly land so we'll try again in about uh 10 minutes i suppose uh breaking into a military computer isn't that at all it's exposing security flaws and enough with the term hacker already they're technology experts hacker should uh not be a pejorative said event appearing right now at this very moment on another radio station oh we'll give you a hint as to what radio station it was they had a panel too it was a radio station that had their own panel so if you can get them then he's on there right now competing with us how do you like that anyway uh pam went on to say we're portrayed as bad evil we've been overhyped as scammers thieves all we are is a bunch of people who are interested in technology who want to get our hands around it get into the middle of it but a um a prisoner uh panel member fiber optic well known even by lay people for his exploits has broken into at&t systems among others he's a convicted criminal for the convention organizers freely adopted the logo of the bell telephone companies for banners and t-shirts hey my phone's ringing i'm going to send this one away because uh don't want to talk to people right now uh well i do want to talk to people just not you know on my on my phone uh said uh said finkel the big bells did not seem to mind the fact that we adopted their logos it's kind of symbolic of the unusually cooperative relationship these days hackers have with their targets ninex hasn't complained finkel said they've given us free isdn lines to use during the conference it was very nice gift they'd rather have hackers happy than unhappy and they know what's good for them yes okay we also had hacking the big apple garth brooks is a hacker that's what emmanuel goldstein editor in chief of 2600 magazine would have you believe according to goldstein the country popsters free concert held in new york central park thursday was really the opening gig for 2600's beyond hope hacker conference which kicks off at 6 p.m tonight this obviously was written on friday we thought the park would be good for him says a droll goldstein i was droll i don't i don't like that description deadpan aside um goldstein says he's expecting hackers newbies fed civilians who knows maybe garth himself to attend beyond hope at the historic puck building this belated sequel to the 1994 beyond hope conference which was not called beyond hope it was called hope takes itself more seriously than las vegas's annual defcon hackers conference i never said that either how much more seriously a lot more apparently i said anyway we are not a bunch of people running around and wrecking things i don't recall saying that although it's true we didn't wreck anything and we were pretty well behaved is beyond hope expecting defcon like shenanigans such as passing counterfeit bills hopefully not says netweasel one of the conference organizers because most people really respect 2600 and emmanuel and what he has done for the hacking community this is the real stuff real stuff or not beyond hope's home page which bills the three-day conference as a landmark conference for hackers and for every citizen of the electronic age is a tad bombastic oh boy still judging by the weekend roster of events beyond hope could match its publicity speakers include msnbc columnist brock meeks cryptographer bruce schneier security expert ira winkler and donald randolph the attorney of imprisoned hacker kevin mitnick panel topics range from the media's portrayal of hackers to that legal and lucrative form of corporate hacking known as tiger teaming and off the hook 2600's radio show will broadcast the conference live to new yorkers on saturday night the conference also has a live link to hip 97 the hacking in progress conference occurring simultaneously in the meadowlands beyond hope had already hacked hip 97's web page by last night netweasel says updates and pictures will be posted on the conference's home page during the weekend goldstein says beyond hope has received amazing support from hackers as well as local businesses and new yorkers a lot of people seem to have that hacking spirit he says asking a lot of questions and rebelling against the people telling them to be quiet that was um what was this from they have a very badly designed hang on let me find your mic netweasel you can tell us what is this from uh this is from you can't tell either can you no that's from msnbc the site msnbc that's msnbc barely read it where does it even say msnbc i don't see that on the here anywhere yeah you're right it's the site.com joel dean i think he's the executive producer okay well they need to work on their artwork just a little bit it's a tad bombastic if you ask me oh boy sarah if you uh you designed our bombastic page what do you think of that oh it was quite bombastic it was but it was intended to be bombastic so there you go haha you thought it was something that we didn't want to do well we did it anyway uh a bunch of other things you know i guess uh i guess possibly the best thing we us to do is just um tell people there's a lot of articles about this and then move on to some people because um people's most important thing here and we have a lot of people to thank and uh reminisce with uh if you were at beyond hope give us a call 212-279-3400 because we'd certainly like to hear from you and uh share your memories as to what happened at beyond hope and what were your favorite parts and what were your not so favorite parts or anything else like that uh we also have a a ton of people to thank uh as i look to my right isaac you did the video did you not oh yes i did that was incredible i mean those people that were in the audience that uh could not see because of all the pillars in that room having the video there with the person's face on it i think was a really good touch yeah there's a difference between a one foot square as a face and the 12 by 9 on the screen yeah yeah um made us look like you know very orwellian speaking down to the people and it was good for uh for things like the prisoner panel where you know one person would just sit there for about you know 45 minutes without saying a single word because the other person was talking and they're not supposed to even be talking to the other person so they can't interject and say other things so uh that was that was uh very useful for that as well but uh what what were some of the more fun aspects for you and maybe some of the less fun aspects well uh pretty much 78 hours without sleep yeah that was something yeah that could go under fun or not fun depending on uh your personal preference you lost monday right i lost monday i i went to sleep sunday morning and not sunday morning sunday well i guess you could call it monday morning i have no idea what time it was and i woke up tuesday and monday just disappeared so i'm trying to redo my uh whole theory of the universe to in order to account for the loss of monday well i lost pretty much all monday too i slept for 14 hours which uh that's yeah that's a lot of sleep um and i think a lot of people did too because judging from the net you know there was sort of this this lull you know where nobody really said anything for all of monday and then tuesday all these messages started getting posted and people started sending mail say well that was fun you know we got to do that again sometime and you know everybody i guess was just either traveling on monday back to where they came from or uh or just you know sitting in a room staring straight ahead and trying to catch up but boy you know when when when you put something like this together it's uh it's trying but it is fun too it's trying and fun that weasel i i think i know where they all were where were they they're on the broadway k-mart trying to get some free stuff now yeah now you know let's talk about that free stuff for a second uh for those of you who went to the social engineering panel i didn't expect this to to really work this well you know we did the social engineering panel uh three years ago this year we did it as well and um you know it i thought maybe we'd have a couple of people talking about things and maybe you know sharing some stories but uh i i wanted to make some attempts on the telephone um we we we basically tried some things and i think nearly all of them worked really well um the k-mart thing tell us about the k-mart thing how it came about well i guess somebody wanted an example of how we could do it so somebody suggested that k-mart's intercom was an extension on the phone well as you know there are two k-marts in new york city only two and i think it might stop at that so uh we called one and talked to one of the managers and told him we were bill from the other store or someone something of that name and told me we're having a problem with our pa system well we went on to say we needed the technical number for tech support he didn't know what it was and i said we we use 50 now what do you guys use and i don't know if i should say what they use over the air because we're not well you said it in front of 500 okay well he said he said in front of 50 000 people or whatever he said well we use function 631 i said well thanks a lot so then uh what is function though how do you how do you transfer to function i think that that basically means uh probably like inquiry or no you know what i think i mean i think function means flash so if you're on a call you can hit function it flashes it's basically just just a dial an extension so then we called uh the broadway camera and uh called them up asked for the shoe department i think because the broadway one is the one downtown right yeah it was it was the one downtown i think that's the one that youtube played at i'm not sure but they didn't play there they had a press conference press conference there or something like that and uh so we called them up and uh asked lucy if you know i was really interested to know if the if the sandals can't wear in because you know i was the i was mark from the other store i want to know if the shipment came in and i actually suggested thanks a lot you know can you transfer me to extension 631 and after that i said attention kmart shoppers everything in aisle four is free uh-huh and of course you all read about the ensuing riot that followed that and all the damage and injuries and things like that but you know it's it's fun yeah okay no but uh it was it was it was an interesting thing i don't think too many people got hurt um but it just shows you how easy it is and the social engineering panel we uh we also uh tried to get information from a um uh from the phone company at&t about a certain uh person with a funny sounding name uh and we got to the point where they would have given us everything we wanted except their computers were down as they almost always are on sunday uh we also called blockbuster and got all kinds of information about all kinds of people with you know the same last name thinking that hey this person might be related to me and the person just was happily giving us everything we needed to know you know what what movies they rented uh when they were in the store last how long they've had an account for where they live and i i probably could have gotten credit card information too have we uh continued that um we also uh what else do we do let's see um well oh uh corporate security corporate security which one uh microsoft oh yeah i don't want to talk about that one but uh we we called the the social engineering hotline of ameritech and um i don't know i think we just demonstrated how much fun things can be and you know where to draw the line and way not to cross and things like that you had fun at the conference oh i had lots of fun at the conference it was uh it was pretty good it's a lot of fun patty you're here oh uh you did just about everything too uh yes i i got to sleep uh today congratulations thank you it's nice to uh nice to find out what sleep is after something like that yes yeah so you uh you all caught up back to normal uh no i'm not caught up but um i guess i'll get to do that again tomorrow uh one thing i got lots of questions about was when are we going to do this again when are we going to have another conference and you know i i just don't want to answer that question now i don't even think about it i don't want to even talk about it it's uh whoa something else uh what kinds of things that did you throw together for this um i had to hunt down equipment mostly we found video equipment audio equipment there was nothing you couldn't find you found everything you found sound equipment and video and that's where you knew everything was yeah uh that's what i do best uh-huh finding it should be a private eye like that private eye we had on do you see him uh he finds people he found people yeah i find people too i find things that's what i do that's how i hack yes nut weasel actually patty's the one that found the uh the dna evidence that links marv albert to the uh we're not supposed to be talking about that remember what the what the district attorney said to us he said not to mention it to the people but we don't have that many listeners so i'm sure everybody can keep can keep uh quiet um zap zap you're you came all the way over here from england all the way from the uk wow now uh was it as you expected it to be was it worse better i didn't know what to expect but it was really really good and i came over with some of my buddies we all met up and we attended and it was good i was really happy you guys were able to make it i really was because uh it just added this flair to things that that we needed to to experience you know that this this worldly aspect so we had people from argentina we had people from uh uh from um other parts of europe asia show up and um it's too bad cyber junkies not here because he was a lot of fun but gorf is here yeah how you doing and uh you're from england as well that's right and what do you think of all this i thought it was amazing really good good fun yeah um especially the the social engineering panel that was uh um unreal uh-huh but what we're going to try to do is uh is put everything onto uh onto real audio and send that over the net and um hopefully people who weren't there will be able to to experience it of course we'll have it on video too at some point we don't know exactly when that will be how long it'll take us to get our act together took us three years to get our act together from the last one um so where do you guys go from here are you going to do something like this in england now well there's um there's a a much smaller uh conference that's organized or it has been on for the last three years so hopefully we'll be able to inject some stuff into that some ideas and um you know get things going and uh on the bigger scale yeah we we speaking of overseas there was another conference called uh hacking in progress which supposedly went quite well although one thing that didn't go so well was our connection to them we had a couple of uh a couple of um times we were able to see what was going on there we have here we have uh we have the hip stories now huh melting my melting minds and passions in the global bitstream probably some melting minds too uh 2 000 hackers 6 million bps 800 000 volts 12 toilets yeah well you see they did theirs outside in a campground so they had a few problems and i think it rained pretty heavily on uh on sunday which might explain why hip disappeared without a word we didn't know what what happened we weren't able to broadcast their their closing ceremonies uh like we were supposed to but uh despite that i think things went uh went really well it was it's exciting and fun the network the network stayed up virtually the whole time and not only that the network actually worked for that we have marco to thank uh who uh i think has has been entered into history as the only person who's ever managed to keep a hacker network going at a hacker conference in this country we've done it in holland a few times but in this country you know 1994 we really didn't do it that that great i mean we had a 288 connection but it was like down most of the time we're able to connect our computers together to each other so that's that's one thing but to actually have a fast connection you know going um that's uh that's harder all right let's take some phone calls 212-279-3400 we're talking about beyond hope if you were there please give us a call and tell us what was going on in uh in in your experiences good evening you're on the air yes emmanuel wait a minute how did we do that rebel was sitting right in front of me and now he's gone yeah he's on the phone and he's still first somehow and i was first at the conference don't you were the first person there i was no i mean in the you lined up on tuesday night on the wbai thing uh-huh well yeah okay that's because you were jumping around and uh right sit down until you got on the air yeah helping pam out uh running around with uh different things yes he did you did help us quite a bit i do want to say thank you for that yeah so what was your favorite part of the conference my favorite part was the social engineering and the wbai broadcast and the the part where people kept uh uh actually the part where i was on where i was on for a couple minutes saturday night like that part yeah when i was doing my demonstrations and i demonstrated you know things with a and i failures and phones and things and i and and i like the the the the little animated gif of me animated you know little home page like thing i don't know what you're talking about there's a there's somebody who made i forgot i forgot the name of the person but there's somebody who made a a not a home page but a little animated gif it's a little page it says rebel attack and it has a picture of me a little picture of my head uh and on an animated gif and it really looks good and they put that up on the screen while i was you know i was talking and i was telling people about you know giving a bit of history about what i do and stuff and i keep hearing laughing i look back up at the screen and i see this animated gif of me and and then you know all this this stuff and i liked it actually it was very humorous yeah well humor i think was a very important part of yeah i mean people people like the demonstrations people sort of uh you know hushed up for the you know when i started picking up the phone and doing stuff yeah yeah and then then after when i was like rushed off the stage because you had to do something else or whatever yeah we sort of we sort of rushed you off the stage there sorry about that but yeah some things had to happen and that was the moment they were happening i get kept getting you know bombarded by people hey hey sign my uh 2600 book uh you know uh where do i get the article of you uh sign my shirt and you know it's like autographing shirts autographing 2600 magazines and then answering questions and people are like oh i hope emmanuel doesn't uh hate you or whatever yeah and you know i i was going to check my i didn't want to check my email there because of the telnet thing with the you know they say not to check your email with telnet well you could be being sniffed yeah but we won't get into that but you know i got back you know you know i i answered all this emails then everybody just kept on saying you know how much they liked what i had to say i they wish that it wasn't so short uh you know a couple of elderly people even came to the conference on friday you know they said that they recognized me from the radio and stuff and you know uh-huh keep talking and uh you know it really was good and also uh you know people just you know i met a person from california that uh you know said that they recognize what i do and stuff and and and i met a lot of people that i you know you know didn't uh you know lots of people asking questions lots of people uh you know it was a fun conference and it was fun yes it was it was tons of fun you know i the abc thing you know i was interviewed by different journalists i did a big demonstration for uh were you on television uh you know i i don't know because if anybody knows of rebels on television please notify me immediately because i need to know that i just would like to know quickly yeah because um i did the i talked to abc and uh and i i talked to this this israeli journalist for quite some time about and i give me a big demonstration about phones uh-huh yeah well that's what you're good at is giving demonstrations on phones right and and um let's say i can't think of what else to say because i'm being shaken right now oh you're being shaken people all right well listen i'll let you get get mugged in in peace there and uh see what's what's what's uh hopefully proper authorities will be contacted thank you very much for calling rebel thanks for being a part of things oh boy uh meme is here how you doing i'm okay thanks you're one of these people that just came up out of nowhere and i don't mean to say that your whole life has been living in nowhere or anything like that but as far as we're concerned that's usually what happens just sort of popped up and and helped us with so many things and uh maybe you could you could describe i didn't really plan that no it just sort of happened just sort of happened well it was it was amazing how things how things tell us some of the things that that you were involved in um registration was certainly one yeah i just i wound up running registration you like how that happened yeah but it was really fun and i got to work with a lot of good people who i'd like to thank okay go ahead and thank them because i'm going to leave out people and then they're going to be mad at me and that's just where i can say well i was going to thank you but then meme jumped in and thank thank you for me so go ahead you want me to thank individuals yes please first i'd like to thank pam yes definitely pam yes she really taught me a lot in gym um but i'd like to point out ronin and baby goat for one because they were there through most of it and jesse and josh um actually there are so many people that i'm going to forget yeah you see the problem here you see the problem definitely forget some people also the people who are working merchandise like ben yeah ben ben works nice and uh um let's see who else uh a lot of people work merch i mean i saw them all it's just like i can't possibly name all of them because sometimes i don't know their names but um there were just so many it's been the whole hour i think right uh but there are a lot of i mean iggy for instance we almost completely forgot iggy he did the security you know he was the guy walking around with keeping track of all the radios it was one thing to be on a radio you know saying where you were but to keep track of where all the radios were that's hard you know and we were able to successfully do that and um and plus you know i don't think people felt like they were being watched like they were being you know their every movement was being scrutinized by you know uh i don't know a rather oppressive security uh staff and i think the reason for that was because we had a pretty cool person running things and uh i think that's that's the way to do it at the same time though it was very effective you know we knew where everything was at any time i don't think anything got got stolen uh nothing nothing major anyway um what about captain crunch's raving ability who wants to uh who wants to talk about that apparently somebody was raving with captain crunch yeah captain crunch showed up john draper was there i was amazed that that he came to our conference he was at the rave okay but did he do something at the rave that's that's worth talking about or well i didn't go to the rave there was a rave on saturday night uh that was put on by some people and um maybe some people on the phone went to that and they could tell us what that was like but that was just one of many things that were going on in the city that weekend i think you know one other thing that we were able to dispel with this whole conference is the fact that the new york city is a really cool place to be and we know that you know everybody who listens here at least has the opportunity to know that but people you know coming from wisconsin and iowa they might think they might think that um they might think that uh it's it's a different kind of place you know and you have to uh you have to kind of be careful the images that you you send out but i think everyone had uh had a good time in the city as well as at the conference let's uh squeeze in another phone call good evening you're on the air hey there let me turn on my radio okay um i've been trying for a few weeks to get this question in the sony cdma no no no are you talking about beyond hope uh no that's the only the only topic we're talking about tonight because it's a very kind of special show and i can you can call about that in a couple of weeks or whenever you get through but uh we don't want to stray from the topic tonight thanks anyway good evening you're on the air hi how you doing okay um i was uh part of this the uh other radio station panel but i wanted to say i really enjoyed the rest of what i had heard at the conference it was fantastic and uh um i hope that you'll have it soon accessible because i've been telling a lot of other people about it and i i was i was looking at your website today and uh you know nothing's up yet so i guess oh yeah we'll be putting up uh we have a big thank you up there now for everybody but we'll be putting up pictures real soon as soon as we get them we're starting to get them i didn't hear the social engineering i really i'm sorry i missed that uh-huh i didn't i didn't hear the uh the i'll mention the station steal this radio i didn't hear that panel and i wish i had because that's the only one didn't get recorded it didn't no it didn't because oh no yeah because because they wanted to use it they wanted to use the camera to record the uh the logo instead so we couldn't record them so i i hope somebody out there got um you know an audio recording of it or maybe even a video recording um that'd be that'd be kind of cool i hope so too but i i um i don't know if you were interested that i was starting to tell you about those uh hacker narcs i was kind of fascinated by that the night before um and i hadn't put up a little a note and i just faxed a couple of radio stations to try to announce it to some of the foreigner foreign people you know people that weren't necessarily familiar with the um with you know first language not being english and the cyber cafe scene over the weekend there were a lot of narcs that had various stories to try to bust hackers oh really yeah i was starting to tell you that but you had a lot of luck going on um there uh in one case a man came in with a photo of a wife and child two separate photos and this was at uh one of the cyber cafes like two about two in the morning on friday night and i was in there and he came right over to me and said this was my wife i can't find her she has a cellular phone and and you know you must you must know how to how to hack into that or surely you must have some hacker friends that know how to do that because then if i if i can find that phone then i can trace her and i said well as far as i know that's not going to tell you any information it's not going to give you the building where the phone is and he was trying to convince me that yes this his phone would and if i only had some hacker friends couldn't i just give him a hacker number yeah well people always think that we have this amazing ability to uh you know to to get answers for everything but you have to always wonder you know what are the reasons for them asking this in the first place and might they have ulterior motives so yeah it's it's it's very wise to be suspicious of such things it's very wise to tell other people about it as well but uh so i overall though you had fun at the conference oh it was great yeah i was certainly um the first one i've been to i wouldn't have known i wouldn't really have thought too much about uh going to the whole thing if it weren't for the radio presentation i was really sorry that i missed a couple of things on the first day i hope we i hope we we open up some eyes with the radio conference and uh you know other ones as well we tried to be as diverse as possible come from as many different angles as possible that way people will be exposed to different uh you know different thoughts oh it was it was much more varied than i than i even thought so it's great okay i really liked a lot thanks for coming thanks for being a part of it oh great thank you thanks for calling all right two on two two seven nine three four hundred we're talking about beyond hope good evening you're on the air yes hello how you doing i just wanted to talk about the conference okay um i'm not a hacker uh-huh but i've had i met a lot of interesting people and i learned a lot of interesting things and i was afraid to go in the beginning because i was afraid of you know being accepted or whatever but i attended almost all the panels i especially enjoyed fiber optics gsm panel and just in general the whole feeling of the whole conference was very very good from what from what hackers are portrayed at as in general by the media right it was totally opposite i've met a lot of interesting people and there's absolutely no problems and that's great that's great to know that because uh that's exactly what we wanted to happen we wanted to have people come in from outside the community and hear things direct from hackers hear our perspective and see some of the things that that we're able to teach and uh you know it it takes guts to be able to walk in the door to something that you're totally unfamiliar with and uh you know onto enemy territory as it as it might be perceived but uh i'm glad you came away with it with a positive experience yes i don't know much about computers but people people were showing me things teaching me things and just i was very surprised and i just had i had a lot of fun uh-huh well that's great that's great thanks very much for coming and for calling thank you all right take care bye 212-279-3400 good evening you're on the air hello emmanuel yeah how you doing good um thank you very much for a a great event well thank you for helping make it possible and uh thanks to all the other people that helped put it on yeah it was it was great to meet everyone meme and iggy and rebel and all you guys and work alongside you this is frank and i'm still here in jersey i managed to catch a program live for once usually i catch it on the internet uh-huh and so i just want to thank you very much and tell you it was a great honor and pleasure to to be there and to meet everyone and to be part of it well frank thanks for all your help and for helping make the sing a success i don't know how you're going to outdo yourself but uh that's a problem yeah that's a big problem we don't know how we're going to do a better job this time hopefully technology will take care of that for you yeah you know that's one of the things that happened in the three years since the last conference is technology has expanded so much you know a 288 connection back in 94 you know it wasn't something to be laughed at uh and now of course it is uh when we had access to so much more we've we've come in contact with so many people that are able to hook things up uh in a in a much better way and keep things going uh and yeah i guess you know i guess technology is growing us along with it and i just want to admit one brief thing i just want to apologize to you toward the end there on sunday i was so burnt out i started actually nodding during the conference that wasn't a reflection on the the the the subject matter was that wasn't the problem it was the snoring it was a loud snoring that was the problem you know that started to disturb some people but uh other than that no things towards the end yeah of course people started getting really frazzled and uh you know it's uh it started to show because you know you you you plan this thing for weeks months even and uh you know then you're you're up for 72 hours and why it's just it's great but uh you you got to come down from it at some point well i'm just glad that people are starting to you did it well thanks we all did it hopefully you're going to do it again and and we're all going to be there too we support you all the way and we're going to be with you every step okay thanks very much for being there thank you emmanuel take care 212-279-3400 good evening you're on the air yes that's our digital delay system now you're on live hello you there hey emmanuel how you doing hi this is lifetimer lifetimer yeah how you doing fine okay my perception on hope uh blast uh what can i say pam you still owe me you own me i am 00025 i think uh okay uh mimi my lady i'm still enchanted by the beauty and by your character net weasel you're still cyber god man but i'm sorry but uh pam is still better and ask ask again wolf game ask wolf's game about uh why pam is better than net weasel in engineering uh what else i don't know i mean i need sleep for the better part okay of what i don't know uh and a big shout out to manos okay great yes thanks thanks thanks to manos for being there i mean you want me to say something technical i don't know say something technical go ahead say something technical i mean i've been trying to get on the show for a couple of weeks and i tried to do to do um on web um on web on web tv but anyway that'll be another story all right okay okay all right yeah we'll talk about that okay bye bye all right bye 212-279-3400 good evening you're on the air hello this is howard i was at the conference i just wanted to say a couple things what i noticed okay go ahead okay um i'm known as uh sort of a gadget man and i didn't know what to expect i figured there'd be more than just computing there so uh i thought i wouldn't be intimidated but it was incredible who you got there what they were talking about and how friendly they were and i wanted to comment on that young lady that spoke earlier about uh people who might have been say trying to lead on to find out if they can catch somebody doing something wrong and i was kind of thinking the kind of crowd that i saw there that they were a little too sophisticated to uh getting trapped if you will uh i wish i had i only shot in a few hours saturday and sunday i never got to meet you guys because i kind of uh listening to your show and thought if i could have hung around and seen you guys and talked and learned a few things that would have been to my benefit but i just could not believe i was just inundated with information and very friendly people it was an excellent atmosphere but it was very intense uh and these these were like uh all stars you know these were like people that just knew what they were doing and having a good time and they were really friendly about it so uh i don't know how you could top it but uh if you could do something even on that level again it would be amazing well we certainly would like to we certainly would like to thanks for calling thanks for coming okay thank you take care you know the thing is everyone's saying to us you know we hope you can do this again but it wasn't us who did it it was all of us i mean it was it was you know it was the people who came not just the people who organized it because you know you yeah you have uh you know two thousand angry people that have bad attitudes it doesn't matter how well you organize things but you have two thousand cool people who are willing to share knowledge and uh and and try you know different ways of doing things and listen to different people you know that's what makes it work that's that's really what makes it work and that's what people come away with and we also you know want to thank the people in the area the people of the city that uh that just open up you know their doors to uh to all the people down there we're friendly to them and and uh showed them all kinds of uh neat places to go neat things to do yes netweasel what do you have well about the whole narc situation and the lady from steal this radio i hate to give away the secret but what most people don't know is is we got most of our secrets from dean warwick's psychic friends network uh-huh so we had a whole we had a whole lease line going right to the network there the whole the whole time so we couldn't figure something out we just asked dean what was up and you'd be surprised how fluent she is in in uh in the flavors of eunuchs she is she's uh she's uh she's really uh a wizard at that she is she was i was very surprised at her knowledge of the metro card too actually she she's the only person known to have pulled off uh actually um getting a good uh cloning of the metro card without getting caught i was just amazed i was called the psychic friends network and ask them about yeah so just if someone ask about it they'll tell you but if you don't ask about they're not going to volunteer the information that's my understanding yeah yeah and after tonight they might not even tell you if you ask them but you have to be very persistent all right two and two two seven nine three four hundred good evening you're on the air hi manuel how you doing uh it's me eyeball how you doing uh fine you helped us quite a bit too yeah thanks um i'd like to say something about the other hook broadcast from uh the pub building yes i think is that somebody was jamming us and nobody could get the signal inside the pub building but everywhere else you would get it yeah no there was some wise guy going around jamming the transmission but you see the thing is the only people that affected were people walking around with uh with walkmans listening inside the building so yeah that's it's pretty easy to to jam any signal within say a building but uh you know there are people running around thinking that it was jamming the whole city and that just simply was not the case because you can't really overpower a 50 000 watt radio station that easily um plus on let's say that tpm my brother had uh uh like he started sleepwalking um started sleepwalking yeah and everybody said he was on a badass trip because he was and like a jerk and he didn't remember it and uh then uh like saying meme is he aware of what you're what you're saying here uh yeah okay and uh i like that uh um i say hi to pam meme cyber weasel everybody and uh uh captain crunch i know why he got gun um to be on hope because like i was emailing i you emailed him him like uh i think in june and asked him if he's gonna go to be on hope he said probably because he's gonna be in the area we're gonna keep a rope low profile and uh so i guess that's that and uh i'd like to say hi to everybody who met me there and that's it okay well thanks very much for the help and thanks for coming and uh we'll talk to you again soon okay bye okay now net weasel you got something there yeah i'd like to thank doug and ray yes oh yes doug and ray how can we forget them with the for the radio help for for getting that uh you know that that broadcast don't forget about iggy well you didn't forget about iggy you didn't okay we talked about iggy for about 25 minutes before oh that's right yeah we had a big tribute to iggy with with star-studded extravaganzas soundtrack that was about yes yeah thanks doug and ray yes thanks to doug and ray for for all of that uh thanks to cheshire catalyst for coming in helping out as well and then putting on some really uh a good discussion of low bandwidth access as well for those people that don't have the you know the spiffiest technology to uh to play around with and of course bernie yes really good to see him really good to see him in new york to to you know hear his voice come out over the radio uh you know not on the phone and uh that was uh that was a thrill for all of us okay two and two two seven nine three four hundred see who else is out there good evening you're on the air oh no you're not okay let's try this one good evening you're on the air okay that's that's hey oh there you are okay yes what's up dude how you doing now you want to say something or you want to well you know what was the most amazing thing to watch what was that was a dispron is this chris yeah chris you're supposed to be here in the studio i know what are you doing on the phone i overslept you overslept what's with all this everyone's sleeping now yeah everyone's sleeping we can't sleep we have to keep going come on i have a day job hustle hustle yeah yeah yeah all right chris you know you're the person that we were waiting for because we didn't we didn't we didn't want to leave you out but but chris is the guy who ran the sound not really because you ran the sound you did it you made you made everybody sound good actually that was that was majorly isaac doug and no one person who couldn't have been done without is patty because she got all that gear for so cheap yeah big shout out to her we're looking into how she did that actually yeah i'm wondering how'd she get those you don't know how she pulled this one off but uh but chris you're the guy who sat behind the board with all those knobs that nobody understands what they do and you know kept setting them to just you know the right setting so that they do good things not bad things but anyway so and you also you also played the music in the main lecture room which was really cool we had some people uh throwing stuff to me and giving me stuff to play that was cool uh-huh yeah so if you if you like the music in the lecture room that was uh that was uh totally totally chris if you like the music in the in the in the network room though that was dhp dhp guys rule those guys are incredible they they they came out they came out from pittsburgh which normally you know you don't have a positive view of pittsburgh but uh these guys make pittsburgh look cool totally yeah they i want to go visit now they they well i can't guarantee that it's still it'll look good but if you see them it'll look great thing is um they make a trek down there and check it out well it's positive yeah you gotta go all across pennsylvania you know what kind of horrible state that is yeah but yeah they they brought machinery you know of all sorts in fact that the hope.net machine which uh one person from canada managed to get rude on or get very close to getting rude on i heard that guy was a genius by the way he was he was pretty smart a lot of really smart people there what was his handle he came he came from i don't have his ottawa was not his handle it was a city qx9 qx9 qx9 yeah that was his i heard that's handle people were watching what he was doing they're like this guy's a genius yeah they had to step away because of you know the the glow of light as he was typing on the keyboard was just too intense but yeah we had a lot of people like that there and this this kid was really you know we wanted to give him a clipper chip to take home but we realized i would be violating the law to cross the border and uh we don't want to do that no no no so we gave him something from a crackerjack box and he seemed happy with that sent him on his way maybe he'll come back next time but chris yeah we want we want to thank you very much for for being a part of that for making it all work you did the sound on the last one but i think you you did a much better job this time you didn't do a great job last time but this time you did well i wasn't there half the time inhuman that's true too that's true too but um but this prong man that was that wasn't that amazing this prong showing up like that no he just sat back there and just like took a couple of pictures meanwhile this other photographer with his huge cameras falling all over the place and i don't know if you saw any of the pictures in other papers but nothing was like the picture in the new york times right you look at the picture on the front page of the new york times yesterday and you just see you just see the little bell the little crack bell in the upper left hand corner just very subtle you know and that's like that's what a photographer uh should do if only they could get people who could write like the photographers can shoot right absolutely but unfortunately we can never we can never see that happen can't have everything you know but i was just i was just so honored to meet that guy chris we are out of time i want to thank also ryan.net uh ryan of ryan.net that is for for all his hard work and ceaseless efforts anybody have anything they want to say any other people they want to add or say anything more about other people uh go ahead patty i want to thank all those kids that got their hands wet with the sodas yeah there's so many of those there were so many of those and netweasel yes i want to thank mrs hacking for being so lovely major hacking's wife yes she was so nice and she was she really asked for a magazine and they were just they were so nice they were two of the nicest people they were very nice they said they loved us and those cookies are delicious now okay now we don't we don't really advertise cookies but if you if you're interested in the major hacking cookies if you want to carry them in the city or something like that because they don't uh should we give a phone number okay yeah we can give a phone number out because we happen to have one of their cookies here uh five one six three two nine oh three one four major hacking i think a lot of people in the city will be asking for them now so that was that was really uh kind of cool if you you want you want to go through us too you want to talk to us uh you know we'll help out as well okay well thanks everybody for for calling in it's a fun show and a great conference and uh i'm sure we'll be we'll be talking about it in weeks to come we'll have the real audio up we'll have pictures up and uh videos available soon and we hope you all had a good time there stay tuned for housing notebook this is emmanuel goldstein for off the hook see you next week have a good night on august 16th join us in a walk and demonstration through bedford stuyvesant brooklyn a walk to honor our political prisoners and prisoners of war umia abu jamal matulu shakur bashir hamid abdul haq and many others fought for community control of schools they fought for safe streets they fought against drug dealers and they fought against police brutality they struggled for the liberation of the black nation participants will assemble at fulton park located at fulton street and stuyvesant avenue opposite boys and girls high school for more information call 718-949-5153 that's 718-949-5153 join us in a walk to honor our political prisoners of war this announcement is a public service of wbai radio on behalf of the malcolm x commemoration committee a non-profit community organization and you're tuned to listener sponsor wbai fm in new york city where the time is now nine o'clock coming up housing notebook paint peeling off the wall dirt piling in the hall ice on the pots but no steam at all landlord landlord landlord low down rotten good for nothing gonna raise your rent someday kick you out if you can't pay you and the goddamn OPA landlord landlord landlord low down rotten good for another he's against public housing he's against public housing can't stand the fuss we're rousing we'll take care of him later of him later with the rabbit exterminator pay him a bonus give him grease for the right to sign a lease you can have dogs but kids must cease landlord landlord landlord landlord landlord recollecting disinfecting labor made a negro hater anti-semite human termite landlord landlord plaster fell on grandma's head this is what the landlord said why you can't landlord is