Hello, it's WBAI New York. 
It's Wednesday evening. 
It's 7 o'clock. 
It's off the hook. 
The telephone keeps ringing. 
So I ripped it off the wall. 
I cut myself while shaving. 
Now I can't make a call. 
We couldn't get much worse. 
But if they could, they would. 
Bum Diddly Bum, but the best is back from the worst. 
I hope that's understood. 
Bum Diddly Bum! 
Bum Diddly Bum Diddly Bum! 
Bum Diddly Bum Diddly Bum. 
We'll be right back. 
We'll be right back. 
Didn't expect to be third, did you? 
Yeah, Alex, your microphone, something really messed up with it. 
Is that right? 
Okay. 
Much better now. 
Much better. 
What about that? 
That's terrible now. 
I think you have to lean forward. 
All right. 
Like it's the 1990s or something. 
Yeah, there's a proximity effect here. 
Yeah, I don't know what kind of hardware you're using there, but it's... 
You are coming in, though. 
We see you. 
That doesn't help the radio audience, does it? 
Yeah, okay. 
It looks like he's got some hardware. 
He's still tidying up there. 
Did you guys... 
It's a tin can and some string. 
He's getting the soup out of the can. 
I just was alerted to this tweet. 
Do you guys look at Twitter at all? 
Somebody tweeted that they're not going to listen to Off the Hook anymore because we're too anti-Putin. 
I mean, thank you for that. 
That was the humor that I needed today. 
But oh my goodness, we're too anti-Putin. 
Can you be too anti-Putin? 
I don't know. 
Apparently around here you can. 
Well, this is as good a time as ever to test my new hardware. 
Is this any better? 
I hope you got the receipt. 
Seriously? 
It's that bad? 
Well, it's a little distorted, but then again... 
I think you went too far the other way. 
Alex, you get kind of distorted sometimes. 
It might be too close. 
Yeah. 
Just back it up a little, and then you're just right. 
It's like... 
Are there radio shows test things out before they go on the air? 
No, let him try it. 
Let him try it. 
He's got it. 
I think he's got it now. 
Well, testing, testing. 
How are we doing here? 
That's fine. 
I mean, we're hackers. 
We test hardware out on the air. 
So how do you feel about that? 
Okay, we're fine. 
We're fine. 
All right. 
We got all the lightheartedness out of the way, some lightheadedness as well. 
On to the serious subject matter. 
And we had the day in court yesterday for our friend Virgil Griffith, who... 
It's been a long time coming. 
You know, we expected this back in September. 
When he was convinced to plead guilty and sentencing was pushed back to, I think, December, then to January, and then all the way to April at his lawyer's behest. 
We'll get into that later. 
And it wasn't good. 
We didn't expect it to be good, but it really wasn't good. 
He was sentenced to around five years in federal prison and forced to pay a $100,000 fine. 
I'd like to just read a couple of excerpts from a couple of different stories. 
First, this story from Coindesk.com. 
I'm going to read the opening paragraph to this story, and I'm going to read an opening paragraph to a different story. 
Former Ethereum developer, Virgil Griffith, will serve 63 months in prison and pay a $100,000 fine for helping North Koreans use cryptocurrencies to evade sanctions. 
Yeah, that's how the story is being reported in most of the mass media. 
You even saw that on BBC. 
And it's wrong, because that's not what he did. 
He did not help North Korea use cryptocurrencies to evade sanctions. 
Now, I'd like to read you the opening paragraph to a story from The Daily Beast, written by our friend Jose Pagliari. 
Virgil Griffith, a computer programmer known for his contributions to Wikipedia and the digital currency, Ethereum, was sentenced to 63 months in prison on Tuesday for speaking at a cryptocurrency conference in North Korea. 
Boom. 
That's it. 
That's the story. 
It's amazing what you can convey in an opening paragraph. 
And I think, you know, most people who, and I got to say, most people have no sympathy for Virgil because of the way it's been presented, because they believe that is what he was doing, that he was helping North Korea. 
When, in fact, he went to North Korea, spoke at a conference, answered some questions, which is what you do when people ask you questions in North Korea, and then got involved and, to his own admission, a bit over-involved in trying to figure out how to crack the security. 
That would allow North Korea, that would allow North Korea, that would allow North Korea, that would allow North Korea to evade sanctions. 
It was a mental exercise. 
There's no reason on earth he would be interested in helping the North Korean regime. 
It was a challenge. 
And that's something that so many people, unfortunately, in the legal system don't seem to understand. 
Alex, you're a rare exception. 
I'm going to read a little bit more from this story until I physically can't take it anymore, the coin desk story, that is. 
Most of it's not badly written, but the facts just are really upsetting. 
Though the crime carried a maximum penalty of 20 years, Griffith's plea deal with federal prosecutors brought the sentence down to a range of 63 to 78 months. 
So, I guess we're supposed to feel grateful for that. 
Yeah. 
He spent approximately two years in custody, though he was released on bail for 14 of those months. 
And the court will count the remaining 10 months as time served. 
So, even though his life has been living hell since 2019, those three years or so, 10 months. 
That's what he gets. 
The sentence was handed down by U.S. District Judge Kevin Castell of the Southern District of New York. 
And, as mentioned, it's on the lower end of the prosecution's suggested sentencing guidelines. 
So, let's all bow down and give thanks for that. 
Before he was sentenced, Virgil and his attorneys had a chance to address the court with any last objections or remarks. 
Um, Brian Klein, who was Griffith's lead attorney, urged Judge Castell to consider factors that he believed had not been accounted for in the prosecution's sentencing guidelines, including the harsh conditions at Brooklyn's Metropolitan Detention Center, where he has been held. 
Where I believe he's being held right now. 
Uh, Klein described, and, and, listeners, prepare yourselves, uh, described several really trying and inhumane conditions that, uh, Virgil experienced at MDC, including extended solitary quarantines due to COVID-19 outbreaks, no family visits, limited access to blankets and warm clothing, even being forced to use his sink as a toilet. 
He said that, uh, Virgil has been limited to two or less meals a day, usually peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, because gangs in MDC control the kitchens and the commissary. 
And because of those harsh conditions, Klein asked the judge to consider counting the 10 months that he has spent in prison as double. 
And also asked that his client be moved to Allenwood in Pennsylvania, where he might be closer to extended family. 
I don't know how the second, uh, request went, but the first request denied. 
Klein also informed, uh, Judge Castell of recent psychological assessment of Griffith, et cetera, et cetera. 
Um, he, um, was found by a psychiatrist to be treatable, not likely to reoffend. 
Didn't matter. 
Uh, when, uh, Virgil himself was given an opportunity to speak, he told the court that he had spent time in prison thinking about how he genuinely, arrogantly, and erroneously thought I knew better than his loved ones who warned him against going to North Korea. 
I've learned my lesson. 
I'm still profoundly embarrassed that I am here and of what I have done. 
Why is that not enough? 
The hell he has gone through already. 
And, and, and, and. 
Basically owning up. 
To what he did, what he actually did. 
Why doesn't that seem to matter at all? 
I want to, um, to read some things the judge said, because I think this is really, really important and revealing. 
This is what Judge Castell said. 
There is an argument that Virgil Griffith is a kind and thoughtful man. 
He, um, goes on to say, but those are not the facts. 
How dare he? 
This is my friend. 
This is somebody I know well. 
Did you even have a conversation with this guy? 
And you preach from your bench and, and, and, and, and condemn him to five years in prison based on ignorance, based on, on hatred and ignorance, because you do not know him. 
You didn't bother to find out. 
You might as well just be reading Fox News. 
What you see here, Castell continued, is an intentionality and a desire to educate people on how to evade sanctions. 
Note the words there, educate people, not just educate North Korea, people, all of us, you, you, Judge Castell, could have heard something. 
You could have learned something from this. 
The FBI could have learned something. 
We all could have benefited from this knowledge, but no, he had this desire to educate people on something that you don't want people to know about. 
But the security holes he's talking about, still there, you're not going to learn about them now. 
And you can't blame him for things that happen when he's not around to, um, uh, to point out the security holes in the first place. 
Judge Castell read a series of text messages and emails from Virgil, which, um, he admits to sharing information with North Korea for the express purpose of helping the repressive Kim regime evade sanctions. 
Well, I'd like to see those very messages and interpret them the way they were intended. 
Because text messages are not broadcast to the world. 
They're sent to individuals and they can contain sarcasm. 
They can contain exaggeration. 
They can be completely fictionalized. 
But I don't expect the federal judge to understand that. 
We're just looking at the literal interpretation. 
And, um, when you do that, you can condemn somebody for almost anything. 
But this is what really apparently upset Judge Castell. 
More than anything. 
A photo of Virgil at the conference, wearing a traditional North Korean suit. 
Hey, I got news for you, Judge. 
Can I call him Judge? 
Is that too disrespectful? 
Your honor, your honor, and I'm air quoting. 
That's what you get when you go to North Korea. 
You get a suit and that's what you have to wear. 
Okay? 
It's not a choice. 
It's not Virgil being a wise guy. 
Although he could be a wise guy and there's nothing wrong with that. 
But he was wearing what he was told to wear over there because that is the respectful way of presenting yourself in those situations. 
I did the same thing when I went over there. 
So, anyway, that pissed him off. 
Wearing a traditional North Korean suit and, um, standing in front of a blackboard on which it read, No sanctions with a smiley face. 
Hey, you know, obviously humor is not something I'm going to be able to successfully explain here. 
But it's clear that, uh, this was something that was, was spur of the moment. 
I don't know if he wrote it. 
I hadn't heard about this before. 
But, uh, writing no sanctions with a smiley face doesn't seem like a federal crime to me. 
It seems just like a bit of whimsy and mischief. 
Is it, is it right? 
I, you know, it's, it's a stupid question. 
Is it right to write a smiley face and say no sanctions? 
It's silly. 
That's the, that's the most that it possibly can be, can be defined as. 
Uh, Castell goes on to say the fact of the matter is Virgil Griffith hoped to come home to Singapore, which is where he lived, by the way, or elsewhere as a crypto hero. 
Apparently the worst thing could possibly be to be admired and praised for standing up to government sanctions for his fearlessness and nobility. 
He blasted Virgil's history of cooperation with the government. 
He's blasting Virgil's history of cooperation with our government. 
Look how fast they sell you out. 
What the hell? 
Both before and after his trip to Pyongyang. 
Which the defense rightfully held up as evidence of his good nature. 
But Judge Castell called it narcissism. 
This guy is willing to play both sides of the street as long as he is a center of attention. 
Castell said. 
To a room of people that were hanging on to his every word. 
You're a damn federal judge. 
You're the center of attention. 
You know what it feels like. 
It's not a crime to want attention. 
Okay, he's guilty of that. 
He was on a reality show and I know that, you know, boosted his ego a bit once. 
And, you know, he figures things out and when he does, he gets praised and he likes the praise. 
That's not a crime. 
And to imply that it is? 
Simply because he was proud of what he was able to figure out and he was willing to share it with the FBI? 
With the U.S. government? 
But this judge considers that a bad thing. 
No, you just want to be the center of attention. 
Obviously, you want Kim Jong-un to be the winner in all this. 
What is this based on? 
It's fantasy. 
It's fiction. 
Both the judge and the prosecution, get this, referenced the ongoing war in Ukraine, as well as the U.S. government's use of sanctions against Russia to justify the need for a harsh sentence to prevent future violations of U.S. sanctions. 
How dare you imply that Virgil would ever, ever take the side of Russia against Ukraine and basically help people get slaughtered and help in the invasion of powerless countries next to superpowers? 
No. 
That is not who he is. 
But implying that with these words is so damn offensive. 
I'd like to now go over to the other story that is a little bit more fair from the Daily Beast. 
At a federal court in New York City, U.S. District Judge P. Kevin Castell handed down the stiff five-year sentence. 
Yeah, it's a stiff sentence. 
It's not a minimal sentence. 
It's a stiff sentence, as well as a $100,000 fine, marking an end to an FBI investigation that, at times, seemed like a heavy-handed crackdown. 
Thank you. 
You won't get that from the mass media. 
To North Korea watchers aware of the lengths that Kim Jong-un's henchmen will go to learn about cryptocurrency and blockchain in order to skirt sanctions and boost the country's nuclear weapons program, the spread of knowledge on cryptocurrency seems dangerous. 
Yeah, spread of knowledge is always dangerous. 
This is something we know. 
We've been spreading knowledge for a good long time. 
And people are always trying to stop us from doing it. 
Because knowledge is power. 
And that can be dangerous. 
North Korea's obsession and dependency on cryptocurrency has no bounds. 
And they'll be quick to take advantage of a misjudgment made by otherwise smart and capable individuals. 
That's what Vikram Theker, technical director at Symantec, told the Daily Beast. 
Under the bite of harsh international sanctions, North Korea has been hacking cryptocurrency-related entities for years to generate revenue for the regime. 
From 2019 to 2020 alone, this is before Virgil could have even helped. 
Kim's hackers stole $316.4 million worth of virtual assets to fund North Korea's weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missile programs, according to a United Nations investigation. 
And, you know, maybe they used the money for something else, too. 
I don't know if it's necessarily just used for the evil things, but the point is, the sanctions are there for a reason. 
We all know that. 
Kimberly Jane Raviner, federal prosecutor with the Southern District of New York, said, Virgil's actions, quote, struck at the heart of the United States sanctions regime, unquote. 
And pointed out several text messages where Virgil made clear his intention was to teach North Korea how to dodge restrictions. 
Again, show me the text messages, because I bet they don't say that. 
According to his lawyers, after his North Korean speaking engagement, Virgil actually went straight to the U.S. embassy in Singapore, where he was residing at the time, to tell them all about the experience. 
Can't really get more open than that. 
He also chose to meet with the FBI without a lawyer in New York. 
I was there. 
Well, I wasn't at the FBI meeting. 
I was there in New York, urging him to get a lawyer before he went there. 
And that was a big mistake. 
Trusting the FBI was a huge mistake. 
And anyone out there, anyone out there, whoever gets a call from the FBI saying, and we just want to talk to you, do not trust them. 
This is proof right now that you cannot trust them. 
They will tell you, oh yeah, nothing's no problem at all, and thank you for being honest with us, and please tell us more. 
And then a few months later, they'll arrest you at an airport when you're trying to visit your family on Thanksgiving. 
They'll make things up. 
Go with a lawyer, or don't go at all. 
The arrest immediately generated criticism as the exceedingly eccentric and devoted community of cryptocurrency enthusiasts cast their prosecution as a crackdown on free speech. 
We are exceedingly eccentric, I guess. 
Meanwhile, the federal government played right into that by shrouding the case in secrecy. 
So many court files were kept sealed that journalist Matthew Russell Lee, who runs the publication Inner City Press, asked the judge to reconsider in a letter that noted the ceilings and withholding here are unacceptable and go beyond those requested, even in the Central Intelligence Agency trial of accused WikiLeaks leaker Joshua Schult. 
During his chats with FBI agents, Virgil came clean and offered to help the feds explore his North Korean contacts and activities, according to a source close to Virgil. 
The source described, at length, his willingness to cooperate with the American intelligence agencies and the potential to become something of a spy asset. 
Those hopes were dashed, obviously, when they pounced on him. 
His defense team also noted that in similar cases where people visited sanctioned countries to speak at business and academic conferences, Americans typically got off with a cautionary letter from the Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control. 
But federal prosecutors countered that. 
Virgil did more than appear as a guest for a single event, citing his months-long conversations with co-conspirators, where he detailed his willingness to help the brutal North Korean regime. 
Well, who are these co-conspirators? 
Am I one? 
Because I've talked to them. 
And, you know, theoretically, you know, you say, well, I wonder if this would work if this particular chain of events was followed. 
Is the system that insecure? 
That's absolutely how conversations go. 
It doesn't make people co-conspirators. 
It makes people co-thinkers. 
In one text message, Virgil explained the value of setting up a computer node in North Korea that would allow the country to take part in the computer network that processes transactions of the digital currency, Ethereum. 
It'll make it possible to avoid sanctions on money transfers, he wrote in another text. 
Boy, that sounds like something you might want to look at. 
That's how these flaws are found. 
It could cause all kinds of problems. 
But, no, we don't want to read it that way. 
We want to read it as some James Bond villain who just wants to cause harm to his country, which he doesn't even live in. 
Boy, what a hateful, horrible person he must be. 
And Judge Castell continued on his rant against Virgil, saying, you have to look at the text messages, which I want to do. 
Release them. 
I'd like to see them. 
Uh, he has to do a lot of work on himself. 
Yeah. 
All right, well, you know, that's the situation. 
Alex, I assume I'm allowed to criticize a federal judge on the air, but I don't know anymore. 
You know, for the last few years, we've all been kept on a short leash. 
You know, we didn't want to do anything that could hurt Virgil. 
I've not talked to Virgil in all this time. 
And, um, you know, we've been advised by his legal team to not say or do anything to avoid pissing off the judge. 
I hope it's time where we can finally speak honestly, because that's what I've been doing the last few minutes. 
And I'm fed up with being told that, you know, we have to be careful and it could get much worse. 
It's, it's, it's worse. 
It can't really get much worse than this. 
He should be out. 
He should be in academia. 
He should be teaching people. 
He should be living his life. 
This is tantamount to torture, barbaric conditions. 
And I'm just ashamed to be in any way a part of a system like that. 
Well, let me chime in here and respond to, you know, quite a few of the things that you said. 
And let me first say that I agree with that, that last statement. 
I think Virgil, even though he pleaded to this crime, has been sufficiently punished, sufficiently deterred. 
And I think that what has happened to him has sufficiently deterred any others from engaging, even, even in activity that barely resembles what, what Virgil did. 
You know, this is a very clear warning shot to researchers, to scientists, to academics all around the world about being extremely careful with the people with whom, about the people with whom you collaborate. 
I do want to say with respect to the, the criticism of a federal judge. 
Now I'm a, I'm a member of the bar. 
I'm a member of the bar of the Southern District of New York. 
And also was working on behalf of Virgil with some of the defense team since last summer. 
I was not a counsel of record, neither was my firm, but we had been working in the background. 
And, and so for, for that reason, I, I want to say quite clearly that I don't join in your criticism of Judge Castell or the federal judiciary. 
These are people in front of whom we have to continually stand up. 
So I'm sure that you will understand what I separate myself from your personal opinions of the judge. 
Of course. 
That being said. 
You don't have to praise him either. 
I'm not going to praise him either. 
I've had quite a few matters in front of Judge Castell and he's certainly a tough, but extraordinarily smart judge as well. 
I will say this though, with regard to the sentence of 63 months, the plea agreement established, I believe it was 63 to 78 months was the range. 
And the government here was really, really going for the jugular. 
They wanted a higher sentence than they got yesterday. 
And I was in the courtroom. 
I took the train up actually from DC yesterday morning. 
And despite some Amtrak snafus that we can discuss perhaps on overtime later tonight, Amtrak snafus, and then the what would look like a terrorist attack in Brooklyn, I did miss about the first 10 minutes of the hearing and then popped in and, and, and, and was there. 
But it was very, very clear that the government was going for a higher sentence. 
That was clear from their submission with respect to sentencing, their sentencing memorandum. 
They were going for 78 months or higher and they were going for a fine of not a hundred thousand dollars, a million dollars. 
They wanted a fine at the top of the spectrum here. 
And so, you know, as Judge Castell was reading out his, his, his reasoning and identifying the materials that he relied on in meeting out the sentence to Virgil, it was pretty harsh and we were all expecting possibly an upwards departure, something that might've been higher than 78 months. 
And when he read out 63 months, I have to say, given the harsh treatment that Virgil had received in the minutes prior to that, it, it was a bit of a relief. 
It's, and I, but on the other hand, the defense team, um, uh, you know, that, that was council of record and everybody that was there, myself included, were very disappointed that there wasn't a downward departure. 
If you read, uh, the memorandum submitted on behalf of Virgil, we were asking for, I think it was 28 months or 24 months, something like that, whatever was in the memorandum. 
Um, so the, the judge stuck very clearly to the parameters of 63 to 78 months. 
There is a reason for that, uh, uh, as well, because the, I believe the agreement had some kind of term about, you know, they're not being really, um, a right to an appeal if, if the, if the sentence was within those parameters, if it went higher than that, I believe Virgil may have had some, some right to appeal the sentence component, but here it doesn't look like it. 
But a couple of things have factored into this that, that judge Castell had, um, identified during his monologue about Virgil before he meted up the sentence for, uh, the bail revocation that happened last summer. 
Um, that did not factor into the equation very well for Virgil at all. 
Uh, as well as the fact that he pleaded guilty to the crime right on the eve of trial. 
You know, you get, you get some, uh, points credits under the federal sentencing guidelines. 
I think you, you lose two points for pleading to the crime, but I don't think the judge appreciated it. 
And the prosecution brought it up that he had done this on the eve of trial, essentially after litigating the case. 
Um, I think that, um, with respect to the cooperation issue there, that was really disheartening for me to, to hear Virgil's cooperation and the fact that he self-reported to the embassy being used against him. 
Um, and it goes to show you that, you know, the prosecution here was very adept. 
They're very smart lawyers. 
They're very good. 
They're able to take that information and use it in a context together with text messages and other activities of Virgil to make it look like it wasn't innocent, that it wasn't, uh, something for which he should be given some credit. 
And, and they did that effectively. 
Uh, however, you know, in most cases where people go to other countries, as you noted, Emmanuel, and as the defense brought up during their argument, most people that go to other countries and speak to, let's say, you know, Iran or others, and especially in an academic setting, and they come back and self-report and say, oh my goodness, I shouldn't have done that. 
They usually get a cautionary letter. 
Um, that, that was brought up. 
This was, uh, and Virgil did in fact self-report. 
Um, he didn't hide this either. 
I mean, the fact that, uh, the visa wasn't in his passport, I think was also brought up, uh, They don't put it in your passport. 
I've been there. 
They don't put it in your passport. 
Yeah. 
Number one, they don't put it in your passport. 
But number two, he wasn't trying to hide this. 
If I recall correctly, he posted it on Twitter. 
Isn't that crazy? 
Absolutely. 
No, everybody, everybody knew this. 
It wasn't a secret at all. 
I know. 
I know. 
Um, you did mention this issue of educating people, right? 
People in quotes here around air quotes. 
Now that, that, that certainly was an odd word that stuck out in my mind too. 
And I think the reason why Judge Castell chose the word people is because of the way in which the prosecution had framed their case. 
This was rather interesting because there was a stipulation that the government engaged in during, uh, the lead up to trial. 
And that stipulation was that what Virgil said at the conference did not give North Korea any additional capabilities than they already had. 
Absolutely. 
That's the government of North Korea. 
That's a very, very important stipulation, I think, to recall in the context of this case. 
Because that means that Virgil didn't teach the country of North Korea anything at all. 
It was the government's theory that there were certain individuals, certain people in the audience that benefited from the things that he said at the conference. 
Not the country itself, but certain people. 
And I think that's probably why Judge Castell chose the term people. 
But couldn't those people have gotten that same information from other people in their country that already knew the answers? 
Possibly, but, you know, for, you know, for, that's, uh, I think a distinction without a difference for our present purposes, unfortunately. 
Mm-hmm. 
Uh, you know, one thing that also stuck out in my mind here, too, was the procedure at the sentencing, uh, hearing itself. 
You know, there is no set prescription for how these things work and different courts and different judges will do it in different ways. 
But the order here was that the government was able to speak first. 
They had the right to, to make their case with regard and, and contest the government's sentencing memorandum, the government's positions. 
At the, uh, conclusion of the government's, I'm sorry, at the conclusion of the defense's statement, that was when Judge Castell gave Virgil the opportunity to speak. 
And I will tell you this, Judge Castell listened and hung on to every single word that Virgil said. 
He listened more astutely to Virgil than anybody else in that courtroom. 
And he even had interrupted Virgil at the outset of his statement and had said, and asked him to clarify what exactly it was that he was saying in his first sentence because he wanted to make sure he understood it and then he even read back some of his words in his sentencing pronouncement. 
Um, and, and I thought that, you know, that, that was a good thing. 
You want a judge to listen to the defendant. 
But the procedure here was defense first, then the defendant, Virgil, got to speak, and then the government got to go. 
And that means that the government really had the last word here. 
And the government at that point had the opportunity then to speak to the points that Virgil spoke about when he was talking to the judge. 
And in a lot of cases, as I understand it, in a lot of different courts, uh, it's the defendant who usually gets the last word. 
But there's no set prescription on, on how these things work. 
But I think it's just a matter of course, it's the defendant's liberty at stake here. 
Uh, and I think it just makes more sense to have, um, the defendant speak last. 
But that's, you know, that's frankly, um, up, up to the judge. 
Uh, I will say this too. 
Uh, it was brought up in the government's case, uh, that, uh, certain representatives of Virgil's had gone onto the radio and were trying to drum up support for his cause. 
Okay, hang on. 
So obviously they're talking about us and, uh, we're representatives of, see this, this is what I mean. 
They, they distort, they, they make things up and they paint a picture which is completely untrue. 
We're not representatives of anyone except ourselves. 
And we're speaking about a friend of ours, but to make it sound like he had us do his bidding, which is what I take from this statement. 
That's completely inaccurate. 
Well, I don't think it's too inaccurate because Virgil was also my client, still is my client. 
But did he tell you what to say on the radio? 
No, he of course didn't give me direction of what to say on the radio. 
He sure didn't tell me because I haven't talked to him since 2019. 
So he didn't tell me what to say. 
And, you know, I've been pretty much the most outspoken one here as far as this particular case goes. 
So, you know, just painting that picture in a courtroom, I think, is very, very unfair and just not accurate. 
Well, I just don't see how it's relevant. 
I mean, I don't take any offense to the characterization of me being representative. 
Why did they bring it up? 
They brought it up. 
I think that's accurate. 
They brought it up to gain an advantage of some sort, right? 
They brought it up to gain an advantage to show that, you know, Virgil had, was trying to use the media to drum up support. 
They had this notion in their sentencing memorandum that he was trying to use this case as a cause celeb to, you know, to promote himself as a form of self-promotion. 
They seemed to bring it up in that type of context. 
You know, there were podcasts, there were radios, you know, his representatives were out there, you know, banging the drum and trying to get supporters. 
I mean, it was, we were on this radio station several times talking about this case. 
You had to opine for, I recall, maybe 40 minutes after Virgil pleaded guilty on 27th of September, 2021. 
I'm sorry. 
And we were asking for nothing other than people to reach out and write support letters for Virgil. 
That's what we were doing. 
We were asking people that had some contact with him, that knew him, to contact us and tell us in a support letter about how Virgil may have helped you, how he may have contributed to your charity, contributed to your education, done something helpful because all of that helps the court form a better and richer picture of the defendant. 
Except it didn't. 
Except it didn't. 
He didn't pay attention to any of those letters. 
Not one of them made a bit of difference. 
What I don't like is the fact that what we were doing was not ill-intentioned in any way. 
We were trying to generate a more full and rich picture of who Virgil is as a person so that he could be properly sentenced before the judge so that justice could be served and taking that kind of action, that kind of innocent activity where we're out asking for support for somebody whose liberty is imminently to be taken away for a number of years and whose liberty had been taken away since last summer and we're out there speaking on his behalf, that should not be something that comes up in the context of a negative characteristic, something for which he should be sent. 
And, you know, but frankly, it wasn't something that factored into at all. 
No, I think it was because look at what Judge Castile said. 
He said that Virgil wants to be the center of attention. 
He wants to be some kind of a hero and that factors in directly with him having his representatives basically paint him in a good light on the radio. 
It's nonsense. 
It's not accurate. 
It's false. 
Let's give some other people on the show a chance to weigh in. 
Kyle, I know you had something to say. 
Well, oh gosh, there's a lot of different responses I had just listening to all of the coverage you were citing and your kind of reaction personally. 
I just, I don't think that this has fixed things quite as much as the government might think it has. 
I don't think that, you know, speaking of sanctions in general, like the country of North Korea has been evading them for quite some time and well before the advent of cryptocurrency. 
And I think this idea that future crimes, and this is sort of a core tenant of the criminal justice system or sham or whatever, you know, you want to think of it as in society. 
It is about sort of preventing further crime because these will be the consequences. 
And citing an ongoing war with a different adversary that did not, that preceded, you know, that was after this activity, this speaking at an event, that I think seems like he's paid the cost and is going to pay the price for these possibility, the mere possibility that sanctions or someone will transfer technology in the future. 
And I mean, that's, I don't know. 
I mean, this isn't, this is someone who self-reported this was not like a quid pro quo or like some kind of scheme. 
of where he was being, you know, financed or for hire in some way. 
He was simply sharing ideas and stuff. 
So that, that kind of irks me, that bothers me a bit because I know that stuff is going to continue to go on. 
And ultimately, I think it seems like the government are like with the self-reporting stuff didn't need him, maybe already knew what they wanted and or had their other, had other avenues to, to contain cryptocurrency. 
But I think the things that he was sharing, like having a server hosting there, you know, I'm not saying that they should have been, you know, planting ideas with him and immediately like setting up some kind of sting or having him be, orchestrate something like on behalf of the government, on behalf of the US or intelligence or private security or other agencies. 
I just, I don't see that that was his intent. 
He was just saying like what he had observed and just so that he could be cleared for having traveled and done it. 
And I think he had researched a little bit beforehand, before he had traveled. 
like he was from how I heard his story of traveling and making this talk, it seemed to me, my impression was that he had been on the up and up beforehand or, you know, afterward and of course when he was traveling, visiting on the East Coast and then was intercepted once they had a sort of a little bit different case than maybe he thought was going on. 
Give you an example, he asked me to go. 
You know, I don't know anything about cryptocurrency. 
I'm not in any way an expert. 
And, you know, this wasn't about that. 
This was about seeing a crazy place like North Korea. 
I'd already been to North Korea, didn't need to go back. 
I've seen it. 
I get how crazy it is, but I do recommend it to people. 
And the whole like Trump spur of the moment ban of Americans being allowed to go to North Korea, it wasn't seen as a serious thing. 
I don't think anyone has been prosecuted for that up until this. 
And, you know, it didn't seem like the kind of thing that anybody was really going to take that seriously. 
And going to a conference as an excuse to go to North Korea, answering a few rudimentary questions, again, didn't seem like a big deal. 
I know, I talked to him at the time, and the only thing I was worried about was that he might say something in North Korea that would get him in trouble over there. 
Never thought for a second that the people he had to worry about were the people in this country. 
That really, that's a very sobering thing for me to realize. 
Yeah, a lot of backward stuff, like our counterintuitive things that just seemed just to be the way that wove a narrative other than the sort of honest and I don't know, just brave. 
I mean, it's brave to make that trip in the first place, and I don't think I would touch it with a 10-foot pole. 
I think that's a different decision for different people. 
I think the concerns about how you go about doing that kind of travel, but it's not unheard of for people to travel there, even journalists. 
Of course. 
But so much is going on there with people who have visited, and I don't think it would be, I don't think it was a wise decision. 
I mean, I don't have the kind of options, and personally, it wouldn't have been my decision, but just saying that you're open to something like that shouldn't be a suspicious thing, and it just seemed like at every step, even being open and researching it, he was reframed to fit something that served other purposes. 
That has been established. 
He made a mistake. 
It was bad judgment. 
How much do you make somebody suffer for that mistake? 
That is really what the question is. 
Robin Gila, the floor is yours. 
Yeah, so if the judge said that Virgil sent representatives plural to go talk him up on the radio, I mean, we've only got one Alex, and nobody else was working in any way on this case, so that's already incorrect. 
But also, and I have not passed the bar, but I know a little bit, I do not speak for anyone but myself when I say this. 
I think this verdict is full of crap, and I think this a great wrong has been done. 
As we've discussed on this program time and again, he was over there not working for an enemy government to do all sorts of high-level crypto stuff. 
He was at an event for enthusiasts, kicking around Wikipedia-level knowledge of this stuff. 
They did not need Virgil Griffith for that information. 
People had that information. 
People had access to that information, and it was certainly nothing beyond where they already were on an organizational level, on a governmental level, with this technology. 
So what we are seeing, I believe, is something that we are all too familiar with in the hacker community, which is somebody gets set up by a prosecution into just a big example of what happens when you do something naughty, when you go against the rules, when you hack. 
And I think we've been seeing this for generations now in the hacker world. 
We have seen people get sentenced ridiculous amounts of time for crimes which shouldn't perhaps have even been crimes in the first place. 
And this is affecting somebody who does not deserve this. 
And I'm looking into the facility. 
He's in MDC Brooklyn. 
And even just the visitation situation over there is extremely restrictive, even for a federal prison, as I understand it. 
And it does not paint a good picture of his future in this facility. 
So I want to know from Alex, what do you feel about the chances of him being moved somewhere else from where he is? 
Well, he will be moved somewhere else and hopefully in short order. 
MDC is essentially a holding facility for people pending trial. 
Once you have been sentenced or you've been acquitted, you leave the MDC. 
And it is a pretty terrible place, I will tell you. 
You know, I can't obviously go into things that Virgil has said to me directly, but some of the stories are absolutely horrendous. 
And I've been there numerous times and it's visiting Virgil and on one occasion they turned away a colleague of mine, even though he was on the cleared list. 
On another occasion I showed up there, cleared the whole morning, and the place was on lockdown. 
And they said, nope, can't come in on lockdown. 
And that just happens. 
I mean, it becomes very difficult sometimes to get in touch with your clients. 
And while and look, it's no secret now, but, you know, Virgil had contracted coronavirus last year and was on a pretty severe lockdown. 
And because the coronavirus was running rampant through the facility, everybody was on lockdown for an extended period of time. 
And it was really horrendous conditions for him to endure. 
He will be transferred to a new facility, though, to answer your question, Rob. 
Judge Castell did agree to make the recommendation for Allenwood in Pennsylvania. 
That carries with it a great deal of weight, especially since Virgil has family connections over there. 
In all likelihood, within a month, and fingers crossed, he will be transferred there. 
Because it's Allenwood, my understanding in discussing with others who are more familiar with this type of situation than I am is that because it doesn't involve a flight, it doesn't involve transferring through other facilities, and it's just a few hours away and accessible through a bus or via a bus, Virgil could be on his way over to Allenwood in a short period of time, maybe within a week, maybe two weeks, but very certainly, hopefully within a month. 
And I think the sooner that he leaves MDC, the better. 
And Allenwood, I think, would be a good place for him too, because this is a pretty bad sentence. 
It's a long sentence. 
It's 63 months. 
It's harsh. 
In federal prison, you generally will do about 85% of that time. 
However, there are other therapies and programs that you can take advantage of during your sentence that can help you reduce that sentence even further. 
So if he takes advantage of all of those things that are available to him, hopefully at Allenwood, I think it's possible he might be able to get his sentence further reduced. 
And I think the sooner we get Virgil out of there, the sooner he can begin to contribute back to society. 
This is a person that Judge Castell himself acknowledged during sentencing has a great deal to give back to the world, a great deal of skills. 
And I think somebody who not only has contributed, in my opinion, a tremendous amount to others, to our community, but who also has tremendous potential. 
This is not going to be the defining moment of Virgil's life if he has any say about it. 
Well said. 
And just to be clear, Virgil pled guilty, so the verdict was pretty much decided at that point. 
It's a sentencing that seems overly harsh. 
And as to what you just said, Alex, you know, I really, I wish the judge had had a conversation, like a 20-minute, half-hour conversation with Virgil in his chambers. 
He would have gotten to know him. 
He would have gotten to understand a little better who it was he was dealing with. 
We know him. 
We know he's a unique individual. 
We know his quirks and things that you just cannot sum up on paper. 
But you can make someone look really, really bad. 
And that is what has happened here and why there is so little sympathy for Virgil, because people read what is said in newspapers, on the Associated Press, and if they get particular facts wrong, like the story I read where they got basically the opening sentence wrong, that's how you're going to judge the person. 
And it's not fair. 
When somebody is accused of spying for North Korea, that's hard to come back from. 
And it doesn't matter that it isn't true. 
Gila, did you have anything? 
Well, I'm just, I'm overtaken by sadness in this whole thing. 
Sadness about feeling hopeless in that what is there to say, what is there to do, the concept of the carceral system and this whole sense of making him an example in the hope of stopping people further from this sort of activity, whatever activity they've decided it was. 
I'm sad. 
I'm not even to angry yet. 
I'm just sad. 
Sad and it's almost paralyzing sadness. 
And I've never even met Virgil. 
I'm just sad. 
And you know what? 
The person who would comfort you in this situation is Virgil himself. 
He would be the one out there telling you it's going to get better. 
He has that amazing ability. 
You know, he sent me a Christmas present. 
He was in prison and he somehow was able to send me this really complex mathematical thing. 
Kyle, I think you can describe it better. 
I couldn't understand it, of course, but to take the time, and I know I wasn't the only one, to take the time to actually think of somebody when you're going through this hell. 
Yeah, he sent us a couple books and a geode or it's like a specific shape, a mathematical shape, and it doesn't stay upright. 
I don't know how else to describe it. 
Exactly. 
These are the kinds of things that he values. 
It's a puzzle. 
It's kind of a spectacle. 
And, you know, I couldn't even respond to him for fear of saying the wrong thing that might get him in more trouble. 
You know, I like to think at this stage, okay, it's done. 
I can finally A, express myself, and B, hopefully talk to him and maybe see him in person. 
You know, it's the very least that I think I can do. 
Yeah, well, I think, you know, let's keep our fingers crossed here that Virgil gets his assignment, goes over to Allenwood, gets out of the MDC, and begins, I think, a productive sentence over there. 
I have no doubt in my mind that he's going to be doing good things for other people, will be making the most of his time, and that, as I said before, I think he still has a great deal to give to this world and to give to our community, and I look forward to that. 
Yeah, absolutely. 
I cannot believe, I guess I can believe we took the entire hour to talk about this. 
It's an important case. 
We're going to talk about other things on Overtime in a few minutes over on YouTube. 
Check the link on the top of 2600.com or just go to YouTube channel 2600. 
The channel is called channel 2600. 
We'll be on there at 8 o'clock. 
You can write to us, OTH at 2600.com. 
That's our email address. 
Give us your thoughts, opinions, whatever you feel like saying. 
And of course, don't forget to support WBAI because without this radio station, we couldn't even talk about this and reach people. 
Give a call to 212-209-2950, pledge whatever you can afford, and encourage other people to do the same, or go and visit give2wbai.org. 
That's give2wbai.org, and you can pledge for all kinds of interesting premiums on that website. 
But having a voice like this in the middle of the FM dial in the middle of New York City, it matters. 
It really matters, just like so many things we talk about, and try to appreciate. 
They matter as well. 
All right. 
We'll see you over on Overtime, or we'll see you next week at 7 p.m. 
Good night, everybody. 


And welcome everybody on YouTube to off the hook over time where we Continue the conversation and maybe even take phone calls from our listeners. 
Did we make it to YouTube Kyle? 
I'm still checking but I am here. 
You're here in person. 
I mean, I could have told you that but But since we don't have Robin Gila tonight, they they had a previous engagement. 
They must be off to We have to check this ourselves on our end I think we Alex you're in Skype land. 
Can you have a phone up to your ear? 
So maybe you can tell us as well Yeah, I'm listening right now. 
Okay, good. 
We're on that's awesome. 
Wow, I think I think our level Your levels are messed up because we did only heard the first part of that sentence I think our levels are a little high. 
They're high this week. 
Usually they're they're they're low and on YouTube Kyle does that seem to make sense to you? 
Are they are they in fact high? 
Should I bring them down? 
Okay, maybe just a little bit but it sounds great it sounds it sounds like overtime, okay Well, people don't like when we sound great We sound okay, you know, yeah, we want to sound. 
Okay, not great. 
We sound like enough Yeah, well, we always are enough. 
All right. 
I was um, that was quite a show Alex how much trouble am I in for for bashing a federal judge? 
I mean, I just you know, no disrespect intended Well, maybe a little but I just you know I feel like I've been bottled up and I can't say what's on my mind and then you just hear things that aren't true coming from someone who you expect to get it, right and It's just too much to bear. 
I wouldn't be good in court You know, I I would I would be trying to say something that I guess I'm not allowed to say Well, I don't know. 
I think I think with some discipline you'd probably and I don't mean to insult you But you'd probably make a pretty good lawyer II. 
Well, yeah shock therapy is very effective and I do know that My my behavior could be modified Yeah, no, no doubt. 
I mean look We we are we live in that country where you can still speak your mind about any kind of federal official and and that's exactly what you did and and I think that You know as Jose Pellieri indicated in his article that you know what had happened is certainly subject to lots of different types of criticism and and let's not forget that during the the dependency of Virgil's case it had come out that Certain bits of evidence that were collected through search warrants of his were being made accessible to the wider FBI Yeah, what was that all about? 
That was never brought up that this is something that unfortunately When Virgil pleaded to this is this really was no longer an issue in his case But if I recall correctly the government did make the representation to the court that it would follow up at the court based on a wider investigation to determine the extent of the different types of evidence that were Being accessed through this erroneously configured Palantir system and I believe Palantir Again, if I recall correctly Had indicated that this wasn't designed improperly but had been Configured improperly But we don't know I To my knowledge there hasn't been an update about this. 
It would be great to to learn a bit more and I I think that Frankly, I think I think it would be great if the court had inquired of the government What was happening in that particular matter in that in that issue in Virgil's matter before sentencing? 
Yeah, I agree Maybe some other case we'll bring it up. 
But It just seemed like this case was designed to be a headline to be a lesson and it didn't matter You know about facts. 
They could just be Facts they could just be manipulated in various ways Yeah took long enough to cook this up. 
It's like it did. 
Yeah a couple years get it looking just right I mean think about that. 
This has been going on since late 2019, you know Thanksgiving when they you know It just shows you the the callousness of it He's on his way from Singapore to visit his family on the East Coast and that's when they grabbed him You know and and after after he's talked to them after he's told him everything he knows and offered to help them That's when they start making his life a living hell and since that day in 2019 it's now 2022 Three years of hell equals ten months in their eyes and another five years to go. 
It's crazy of course, you know, I know Virgil is going to make the most of it and I know he's going to be strong and inspirational and if anyone can Get something positive out of what's ahead. 
It's him I'm just pissed off because you know, I want him to be outside I want him to be you know able to enjoy himself and and and To share his knowledge and learn things from the rest of us you know, I feel that way whenever something bad happens to any of my friends and this is one of the worst things One of the worst because you just hear the lies and you realize people aren't getting it They don't want to get it they're not listening they're not trying to See who he really is. 
Yeah Let me let me make something clear here too, because we didn't discuss this during the show. 
Maybe we should have but You know when Virgil pleaded to this on the 27th of September last year That was a very very painful and emotional day for him. 
I mean you could feel the pain in his voice In in pleading to the to the charge and It was It was hard for him. 
You could see it. 
It was rough yesterday Virgil was very strong. 
I mean he sat there. 
He looked up at the judge. 
He looked at the prosecution He didn't flinch. 
He wasn't even emotional He was he stood there and he admirably took the sentence that was meted out to him and the sense I think you know, it was what he expected given the Position of the government and how the case had had gone up until that point I think there was also some hope but this was all within the realm of expectation and I Was watching him I was right there in the front row with his parents sitting right next to his mother and his father and Virgil was strong He stood up. 
He was sat upright He looked everybody in the eye and you could tell that this is somebody who has a seriousness of purpose Who will go and do what is expected of him and won't come out even stronger I have no doubt in my mind and I told him and as much as that as well, so I Think I think he's come a long way as a person during this whole ordeal and and I don't I'm not saying that, you know, he wasn't a good person before or anything, but I think this has certainly changed him in a lot of ways and he is Going to continually get stronger through this process Yeah, I find it interesting that beforehand and be prior to this he had been Really trying to get this technology to so many different parts of the world places in need. 
I remember You know, I met him a couple times. 
I knew him from Hacker events, of course and your relationship Emanuel and of course He would be stopping in town. 
So yeah, I remember him talking about Going to places that had had been disaster ridden and trying to implement this technology going to places where people didn't have the ability to process transactions and And could make use of this And outside of all kinds of systems all kinds of systems Capitalist governmental working ad hoc building stuff and I think Him not being involved is a real loss. 
You know, there was a story recently too about what was the deal with aetherium? 
being sort of distanced early on and then And then I think there was some statements recently I don't know if anybody has any updates about that, but it just seems like they were also Afraid to say yeah, this is the kind of thing we want to be behind This is the kind of place that could use this for good because of the harshness of sanctions Let's let's be clear though. 
He wasn't advocating for North Koreans to be You know other than theoretically To be evading sanctions and and using cryptocurrency. 
He Obviously was helping those countries are facing disasters And in our own country Puerto Rico being one of them but It was in his blood to figure out how to make a system work in this particular case North Korea was very different than say Haiti Puerto Rico or you know other impoverished places that were dealing with disasters This was something that was you know more of a political type thing But it was a mental exercise and he had never been right. 
It was also his curiosity exactly And if you know if he wanted to do that, he could have easily hidden everything that he was up to he didn't have to tell anybody you can go to North Korea and Nobody will ever know I'm telling you that right now. 
This is how you do it You go to China and from China you go to North Korea. 
There's no visa in your passport There's no record of it anyplace. 
You just need to have an invitation from North Korea which is fairly easy to arrange and When you back Your passport will not show anything. 
So unless you tell somebody that you went there Nobody will know he told everybody He told the US government. 
He he was he was wanting to share what he learned and That was his mistake being open So what message does that send? 
Yeah, I think you're right that wasn't emphasized enough that he was bringing back a lot more From there and it's sad even like I think he's not gonna be able to contribute and continue to be a part of that community And do work that way I is one thing but to think he hasn't even really been able to process What what he did find out when he was presenting there the kinds of questions the things that people were asking I'm sure he's thought about it personally, but This has been just surviving in this this Case is preoccupied What he was doing there and and and trying to learn and share and and do for himself, you know that this this became the focus because of the ends that I think the prosecution and the Those investigating were we're seeking and the fact that it was mentioned yesterday that There were co-conspirators that he was talking to Alex what does that mean? 
What why didn't they go after these co-conspirators? 
Were they just trying to send the message with Virgil? 
What does that say to you that there are these other people that they think they say we're plotting with Virgil? 
Well First let me say I don't want to And I don't think any of us are encouraging anybody to go to North Korea Yeah I'm simply saying how how it is how easy it is to do that and not tell anybody We're not encouraging anybody to go and you know violate sanctions on North Korea or do anything like that, but I'd with respect to the the The co-conspirators sure. 
I think I can't recall exactly from the papers But I think there were five or six co-conspirators and they were described I Want to be very careful about how I address that because some of this obviously I I know who they are But you know, there are various reasons why they haven't been charged in this case And some of them may be, you know outside the reach of of jurisdiction things like that There's there are a number of reasons. 
It seems to me. 
They don't really care. 
Am I am I right in saying that? 
No, I wouldn't say that I would I wouldn't characterize it as that I think that they I think that they care about it But I think that the the facts and circumstances surrounding the other co-conspirators are materially different than then Virgil's Situation. 
I need to be you know careful about how I address that though Okay, well just it really seems like They were focusing primarily on him and that's that's the message they wanted to send That's the message they wanted to send Also, I I should point out I should point out it's not a violation of sanctions to visit North Korea It's a violation of Trump's decree where basically he said, you know what? 
I don't want anybody from America going to North Korea except me and When I went to North Korea I went as a European citizen But I could have gone as an American citizen and it would not have been a violation of the sanctions at all It's different than Cuba where they make it much more difficult or they did make it much more difficult for you to go there In any way, but North Korea was easy to get to Before Trump and and I don't know why it hasn't reverted back. 
It should it should still be Easy for people to visit any place in the world, I think Yeah, and what's in place right now is is still that Trump based travel ban on North Korea? 
So going there would would in fact, you know be a violation of the law And we don't encourage people to violate the travel ban if you're an American citizen if you're a Canadian if you're a Brit that you Know and anyone else basically can go there exactly, it's important to remember that that was not in effect when I know it's probably immaterial, but When Virgil was there this was no it wasn't in fact Trump's Trump's decree was in effect Did it occur right when he was it right? 
It was it was shortly before I'm not sure exactly if it was a year or less But I wasn't really tapped into living. 
It was yeah, he lived in Singapore Oh, he had he didn't come to the United States very often. 
He lived in Singapore. 
He was very close to North Korea geographically Imagine, you know the silliness of saying oh my god, you know Trump says I can't do this Even though it's so easy for me to do this It's not a lot but then he he basically asked permission anyway, because he never thought that they would say no and then they did say no and You know his mistake was doing it anyway But like I said, that shouldn't be a mistake that you pay for for so long and in such a horrible way Hey, let's give out our phone number eight zero two three two one four two two five eight. 
Oh two three two one hack If anyone wants to call in and be part of a conversation or start a different conversation, that's fine with us as well Didn't mean to spend all night talking about this. 
But hey, it's a human life. 
It's something important and it's a friend of ours and I Don't really feel like talking about anything else to be honest because it's it's just very upsetting I wish I could have been there yesterday. 
We had so many things happening at the same time It just was impossible physically to get there. 
But Alex, what was the The courtroom where there were there a lot of people there Yeah, it was it was pretty much packed and because of the kovat restrictions there were You know not even as many seats available As before in one of the things that I thought was interesting, you know When you get into the the courthouse now, if you don't have a KN 95 mask They will give you one to to where everybody had to wear those KN 95 masks and in the courtroom and I'll tell you this I almost missed the entire hearing and You know, I came in a little bit late. 
I alluded to this during the show, but I had I traveled to DC The day before the The hearing to to go down for a conference and a dinner the IAPP conference and and then I had to take a very very early train back up to New York a 650 a.m. 
Amtrak train to get back to New York that was supposed to get me in at 9 52 a.m to Penn Station and Then the hearing would have been at 11, which is way more than enough time to get downtown To the Southern District of New York. 
I mean you can we could walk down there within an hour easily, so I Get on the train at 6 50 a.m. 
And Shortly thereafter I think you know right around Wilmington the conductor makes an announcement that you know You may have noticed but the train is running a little bit more slowly than it ordinarily does and our max speed is capped At I think was around 79 miles per hour Because there was some kind of mechanical failure with the engine. 
Oh dear and I said, oh my god. 
Are you kidding me? 
So we're losing time the entire way that we're going They started announcing. 
Well, there's going to be substantial delays on this train. 
I'm thinking. 
Oh my god Are you kidding me? 
And then they start announcing that there's going to be excessive delays We've so we move from substantial then to excessive and everybody's freaking out on a train because you know, we've got stuff to do You know, we're on a 6 50 a.m Train because you know, you have places you have to be in New York You don't take that train because it's a it's a convenient time for you to leave At some point the next train is gonna pass you too, isn't it? 
Yeah, probably not sure how that works, but there's got to be a train behind you that that isn't being delayed So then we finally get to Philadelphia, you know slowly But surely and then they make an announcement as we're pulling into Philadelphia that they're gonna do something with the train's engine they're gonna take the one from the back and put it on the front or Some kind of fix for this they can do that. 
They can do that You know I've seen on the West Coast what they do sometimes when an Amtrak engine fails is a they use a Union Pacific Freight train engine and just haul the whole thing that way that happens sometimes I don't know if they do that on the Northeast Corridor though Well, however, they fix it and whatever they do it takes time and I estimated that the time to take this To fix this issue would have been 30 to 50 minutes Which means that you know, it's definitely gonna take over an hour if they're estimating, you know up to 50 minutes Couldn't they just put you on another train they have trains there in Philadelphia. 
I see them parked all the time Yeah, yeah the well the that wasn't what they intended to do That wasn't what they were planning to do So then if there was a 50 minute delay on top of all the other delays and we're leaving Philadelphia That late there's no way that I was gonna get to New York in time to see even probably The last 10 minutes of the hearing So I start freaking out and I was looking at the timetable and the schedules are what the hell can I do? 
Talking to the conductor turns out there was a regional train. 
That was following us. 
That was behind us. 
You took SEPTA No, it was still Amtrak Okay I thought you took the local transit because you can do that you could take SEPTA up to Trenton and then get on a New Jersey transit train to Penn Station It's slow and it's cheap, but it does get you there Yeah, so I hopped off the train in Philadelphia and the the regional train was leaving in nine minutes Okay, I've been leaving in nine minutes So I was able to get a ticket book a ticket Get back on the regional train and then get into Penn Station around 1045. 
Hang on. 
Hang on. 
Hang on. 
Hang on Hang on. 
We mean you had to get a ticket. 
You already had a ticket. 
Why can you use that ticket? 
Can't use that same Amtrak ticket to get on a different train. 
I had to pay a new fee. 
That's wrong. 
No, I'm sorry That's right, especially if it's their fault Of course, I mean, I'm gonna try to contest this I'll represent you in Amtrak court, which I can do by the way You can't but I can and this is another story we can get into today I was actually I was in I was a defendant in court today and And I can talk about that a little bit later. 
Wait, you were defendant not a lawyer. 
I Was that's right. 
I was representing myself pro se. 
Well, we can get into that later. 
Okay, you've had an interesting day So I get in well, I'm Poised to get into New York at 1045 Which is still not enough time for me to get right down to the Southern District of New York in 15 minutes You know for the the hearings to start but at least I will have only missed a few of it, right? 
So I get on the regional train. 
I sit next to this guy and then I get a CNN alert About the attack that had occurred in Brooklyn and I think myself. 
Oh my god now now this has happened here, right? 
So when I pull into Penn Station the subways are snarled that's very difficult and because the subways are snarled All of the the traffic outside is completely snarled up and I wind up, you know getting into a cab That's available right out of Penn Station Rushing down the guy is Russian. 
He barely speaks any English And it doesn't really know where he's going I had to to use ways to tell him the most efficient way to get down there In and you know This took about like probably about it You know a half an hour or something to get down to the Southern District and it should have taken, you know, 10 minutes it were 15 maybe at the most but It was a crazy situation and then I had to go through the metal detector. 
It's a little bit expedited for attorneys, but Finally got up to the Southern District in the courthouse around 1115 or 1120 Wait after all that you're only 15 minutes late After that, it was only 15 minutes late and it was insanely stressful because you know, I'd been this is obviously a very important hearing You know traveled back and forth to DC in in a single day in less than 24 hours And something I've been working on for quite a while and to see an Amtrak Malfunction about to screw up, you know your entire ability to get there and you know And more importantly you want virtual to see you there. 
Mm-hmm, you know that it knows that you care and that you know He has your support Especially as you know One of his quote-unquote Representatives we got to see you burst through the door and then your briefcase fell open and all the papers on the floor and everyone Laughs it was a light-hearted moment. 
Well because I was the latest person to come in And and I was looking around for a seat and there were no seats Every single seat was taken and then one of the marshal said to me if you can't find a seat You're gonna have to leave Wow. 
I said, well, you know, there's no way I'm not finding a seat after that ordeal So I walked straight up to the front of the galley. 
I saw that there was a Open seat probably a little bit too close for comfort for maybe you know No, but but it was right next to Virgil's mom and dad and you know, I went over there They recognized me despite the KN 95 mask I gave them a hug and sat down next to them and and nobody bothered me So I got there quite an entrance quite an entrance Alex yeah, it was definitely an entrance and Let me tell you I mean you just can't rely on Amtrak, you know Well, look this happens on any mode of transit, you know airplanes certainly and buses But Amtrak people are amazing people and they always are trying to help you in one way or another and if more money was just poured into that infrastructure You wouldn't have these kinds of problems maybe we could have actual high-speed rail and you could get from DC to New York in a couple of hours and You know like other countries Yeah, I mean look that would be great. 
You know, if it was more efficient and more reliable but yeah This happens to you one too many times and you don't want to take it anymore Then you may want to start taking flights and and I hate taking flights. 
Yeah Well, tell me how that works out Alex. 
So tell me about the Streamlined service that you get by by getting on the jam-packed onto a sardine can yeah, there should be a more Reliable and efficient way to get between New York and DC and tell you you know driving is horrendous Mm-hmm train can be unreliable flying is like the logistics of it are just too I want to say, you know torturous to deal with You're flying at a LaGuardia flying flying is not gonna get any flying is not gonna get any better Then I can make planes go any faster and and highways are gonna be congested Trains can be improved. 
The the rail can be improved. 
The speed can be improved. 
And that's what I hope that that happens We have a caller. 
Hopefully we still have a caller. 
I didn't hear the phone ring Kyle I guess we're on silent mode, but we do have somebody's been patiently waiting. 
Yeah, it was but it's back on now It's back on now. 
Okay, so we will hear the gentle sound of the phone ringing and good evening You're on I'll talk over time. 
Thank you for waiting Hey, what's up Yeah, it's it's terrible I have a question about that though. 
If he had held that call in the presentation like virtually Instead of being there in person Would he have? 
Faced any kind of repercussions? 
Oh interesting question. 
What do you what do you think about that Alex? 
So what if he had done it from his house? 
What if he had answered questions from people in North Korea at his house? 
This is a fact situation that I have considered numerous times, you know and in different permutations as well You know, what if? 
the situation were Perhaps that let's say he was giving a presentation in Geneva And there happened to be a North Korean in the audience and singular North Korean person was able to derive some kind of benefit From what he said similar to what the government's case the theory of their case was was that there was one individually and remember the Stipulation was that what Virgil said and did in North Korea did not give them any additional capabilities that they did not already have But there were certain individuals in the audience who benefited from that So I think I think I think Phil is is absolutely right to bring up this analogy. 
It's something I've thought about many times over, you know since last summer and I Don't know the answer to it. 
I mean, I I think based on the government's theory you would have The same result that you have benefited somebody in North Korea the difference being though is what? 
Judge Castile focused on in his pronouncement at the end of the hearing which was the intentionality component of this if you unintentionally help somebody who you know, maybe North Korean in your audience that seems to me as being less morally culpable than Intentionally going there and intentionally speaking to certain people. 
I think that's what the distinction under the law Would be the difference between something that was an intentional act and an unintentional consequence. 
Oh But what if you know you're over there in North Korea and as it was said in the in the judges on statements He was helping people not representatives of the North Korean government If if you believe that these people out there are innocent people that aren't affiliated with an evil regime Would that not by by this logic be an excuse to to to say that your intentions were good No, not given the blanket sanctions that that applied to North Korea as a whole so just because they're North Koreans and He answered their questions and and benefited them as a result. 
That is reason enough Well, I think I think it could be I think I think the context is what would drive Decision here, you know if you were at you know it was a blockchain conference and the audience was known to be people that worked in I guess the Technology sector and or the government things like that if you were Talking at I don't know a Care Bear Convention or something like that Then I think that you know, and you happen to mention something about cryptocurrency and it may be You know depending upon the intention and your knowledge of what the audience was and you know Maybe that could work the same result But I think but I think the Phil's point and and to your point as well manual There are lots of permutations of the fact patterns here that call into question the legitimacy of the government's theory Mm-hmm Anything else color on well, here's here's another thing like Say for instance, he did the whole presentation. 
It's like a TED talk that was put on YouTube, right? 
Because that's basically what this sounds like. 
It's just like Something that would be in a TED talk, right? 
Say for instance a North Korean solid on YouTube. 
What what would I mean? 
What would happen? 
I mean anything or Yeah Yeah, I mean I I think it's the same Situation here, right, you know You can have there are all of these streaming platforms and and if they're accessible to somebody else but I I think goes back to this this notion of What was intended by the act? 
you know and and the greater the intentionality the the greater the level of Culpability for the act so an intentionality and culpability in mathematical terms would be directly proportional to each other the less and or and you know unintentional consequences, you know well, rather if you have an unintentional act that has Unintentional consequences or an intentional act that has unintentional consequences, then there's less culpability for for that particular Act and its consequences. 
So I think if you were focusing the YouTube video to a North Korean audience I think yeah, certainly absolutely the government's theory would probably apply What if it happened to accidentally reach a North Korean? 
I think it would be much flimsier much more tenuous case See, it's the whole thing about intent. 
You know, we understand Virgil's intent We know him and to see it misrepresented in court and and his sentence basically being decided Because of someone else's interpretation of what he intended to do That's so disturbing and and just unsettling. 
I Think we should have a North Korea track at hope Something that only gets fed into North Korea, you know even joking about that We could probably get in trouble in this in this climate. 
I'm not living in that world. 
No Yeah, okay, let's tell ourselves that and anything else caller Wait, are they still out there? 
The convoy is still out there. 
Well, they were they repounded the payment today. 
They Had to go walk around on concrete and hand out flyers. 
They didn't like that very much. 
Uh-huh. 
A lot of people left one dude left Did a YouTube video how they're not gonna reimburse the fuel cost anymore I Know the guy went back home to Oklahoma and he went on a rant about something that turned out to be about a sex Crime he did with his sister We don't need to hear that. 
We don't need to even think about that Yeah, I mean it was it's weird seeing a live stream about that and he's got so paranoid about it He's been like leaving living literally live streaming himself sleeping now but um The other guys the new place they moved to it's like a place in Banning, California and it happens to be right next to a nuclear Nuclear waste dump that one of the streamers just happened upon just walking around the property You know check out the place out. 
I was looking at some hills like oh, there's a sign that says there's radiation here We shouldn't go here So it's not it's not going well at all for him Mike land is the leader of it. 
You just like had a bunch of them like show up at a weigh station Apparently they just sat there in trucks at a weigh station all day Doing nothing Honking the horn. 
Well, I mean it's kind of the theme what they do. 
Anyway, it's just not at a weigh station Just honking horns and doing nothing You know, I can I can rent right now. 
I can rent for like 50 bucks like a billboard Digital billboard somewhere that can put the message up at certain times a day, you know, uh-huh Also, well, you know just watching this stuff around to something else Um, did you know that then that the Minneapolis Sheriff's Department or it might be the police department? 
I can't remember which one they did a thing called to truck patrol live where they actually live stream their patrols at night Okay, that doesn't sound like it could go wrong Well, yeah, well, you know, I was watching it because I like well, I never heard of this He just showed up and wanted one of the recommended things. 
I guess because I'm watching this Conway crap But I'm not opposed to it. 
I think I think watching the cops, you know live would be beneficial. 
They They took free food from bars. 
I mean Actually took free food from bars. 
Wow. 
It's a couple of domestic disputes from what I saw Dispute from what I saw one dude said he had a gun and stuff like that and they They thought they were they were upon a a stolen car called some The lady driving it didn't know enough to put her tag on the outside Don't the people that they encounter have to give permission to be broadcast You know, I'm not sure I know they did not put the camera up on them I guess because the way body cams are done. 
I don't think they would have to do that I think I would count as the dash cam or something like that. 
All right But you know, I mean They have free food it just And also I last night on one of these streams, um with the Conway thing they had a You should see this. 
There's one called fried TV Where they got like 20 screens up of the other streamers and every stream And I'm still doing the M still messing with him up the restreaming. 
Um, I think he's probably right along I actually made my way onto Zillow and talked to him a little bit. 
Mm-hmm, and they got mad at me Yeah, they'll do that questions about stuff. 
Huh? 
Well, they'll do that. 
They'll get mad if they don't recognize somebody on Yeah, I started playing the convoy song, you know the old yeah from the 70s But um But anyway, um another thing I ran into it's like something called Texas storm chasers where they they're professional storm chasers Yeah, they chase tornadoes. 
Yeah, they do some interesting things Yeah, it's pretty cool. 
I thought was cool from what I could see of it Oh, I'm just shut up. 
I'm seen into shooting suspect called in tip that Led to his arrest. 
No, he did the subway shooter turned himself Well, he he gave the tip that turned himself in I guess he gets the reward now that how it works Yeah, that's it's smart yeah, but interesting couple of days in New York You know, it's been a while since I've been in New York I was there when you 15 or whatnot But um, they still have the National Guard hanging out I believe so in some places. 
I haven't been in that region for a little while, but I think they're still there Yes, there are a lot of different Agencies that co-operate and coordinate in various locations all over Manhattan Everyone from the State Patrol to the National Guard to NYPD to MTA PD And especially when people are setting off smoke bombs in the subway. 
Yeah. 
Yeah, that's a Bunch of that. 
Well, yeah, that's happened in Brooklyn I mean, I remember going to the Bronx and I didn't see anybody Again, I went in and got off a day at Yankee Stadium And I saw the biggest rat nut I ever saw in my life there. 
It's nice of a cat. 
It's like oh my god, it's true But yeah, I mean Just hanging out with that what we need best for the For these cyber crimes or whatnot, it's just an educated legislator legislative and Judicial system. 
We definitely need a cyber court to deal with all this stuff As far as a tribal band thing, I don't know how The only thing I could think of you could have done it without getting in trouble like doing it virtually Right, but I don't know If that would count as doing like transaction stuff or something like that with sanctions, I mean I Mean if I was to make the phone call, right? 
To North Korea would I get in trouble for that or I don't think so, but it's it's hard to do in the first place Yeah, we just need them we just need to go out there and vote for people who Who actually Know what they're doing and try to change some of this stuff. 
Also. 
Did you hear about California trying to pass along to them? 
Make a workweek 32 hours. 
I did not hear about that Yeah, I heard about on camels better night. 
Uh-huh Something else for corporate America to get mad at everybody about Wow All right. 
Listen, we're gonna move on to another phone call, but thanks Thanks for calling in Happy to hear from you. 
Keep listening. 
Yeah our phone number eight zero two three two one four two two five And we're gonna hear the phone this time. 
I believe if it does ring eight. 
Oh two three two one hack on for a few more minutes and There it is just like clockwork Are we connected? 
Okay, and good evening. 
You're on off the hook overtime Hi, you know, it's rebel. 
How you doing? 
Yeah Kind of still disappointed that I can't go to Russia, but oh, okay. 
So wait you decided not to go to Russia. 
That's news Well, it's not that I decided not to go. 
I can it's just the logistics of it is just you know It'll be just too much. 
That is a decision. 
You made a decision. 
You made a good decision Wait, well, maybe next year. 
Well, the reason good for three years, you know, I got the piece and you know In the process of getting the visa, it's good for three years. 
Hope I can't go this year. 
Maybe I'll go next year I didn't know it lasted three years. 
Wow, that's amazing Yeah, and then if I can't go next year, then maybe I could go the next year I thought it lasted three months, but I'm wrong. 
That's really smart rebel because you're keeping your options open right Now, how do you go to North Korea and Cuba and all when you couldn't exchange money and they don't take American credit cards How did you do it? 
When I went to North Korea first, I went as a European citizen because I have a European passport But I could have gone as an American citizen. 
It was it was open at that point not everybody has that option as what to go as different Yeah, but I could have gone as American my point is I could have gone as American too It was open to Americans up until Trump and all you had to do was go to China And and meet up with the people that ran the tour the tour group and and and they would fly you over and you were There I hate to be a pest but you just randomly chose the European one Tell me tell me you didn't consciously say, you know what? 
I don't want to use this option I want to I'm choosing chocolate because I don't want to choose vanilla. 
I have no idea what you're talking You know, why choose one or the other? 
I mean, obviously you're using my European passport instead of my American passport I'm saying some people don't have options. 
You had the option you chose one Obviously chose the option right but say you're one with the your only option is the one you didn't choose That's what I mean. 
Not everybody has the option. 
That's that's all I'm saying Okay, look, it's it's like you have you have standard and then you have deluxe and you choose standard come on, the European passport is better for going into that country because You're trusted more as a European citizen than an American citizen But my point is that I didn't have to do that I could have gone as an American and I wouldn't have been able to take the train out of the country that was that was one of the options that Europeans had That Americans did not have they had to fly in and out But once once you got there, I believe all the expenses were taken care of by the travel agency you paid them and they they covered all your meals and and Travel and all that so you weren't actually exchanging money With people in North Korea, so I think that's how they got around that Okay. 
Now, what about Cuba? 
Cuba was a little bit more complicated because We were able to go as journalists the American government was happy with that and Unfortunately in in Cuba, they don't like journalists. 
So there was this weird kind of Gap between how my status when I left and my status when I arrived there were a few questions being asked in Havana when when I got there and and they They seemed to be sort of fixating on how are you a tourist that's that flew in from Florida when tourism isn't allowed? 
But eventually the tour guide the person that was basically in charge of transporting people to hotels Got so impatient. 
She started yelling at the customs guy and he got intimidated and just kind of let me go It was that simple. 
So somehow I was able money and how about money and And you think you know, you can't use credit cards there I think you know, I don't remember a number of years ago but I'm pretty sure that When you have a reason to go there You obviously have to pay for things like food and and and a place to stay I think that's that's allowed if you're allowed in the country you're not able to make you know, massive gifts and and you know purchase homes or things like that, but No, I mean like a painful hotel they can't use an American Express code or a visa card to pay for a hotel or use you know, like a Their currency to pay for like a subway ride or a you know, like a snack or whatever, right? 
Well, we probably you know again, this is a while ago probably had to exchange currency. 
There are two different kinds of currency there is a currency for for people who lived in Cuba and there's a currency for people who did not live in Cuba and Totally different prices depending on on which you were but like I said because If you qualify to go there as a particular in my case a journalist You're able to spend money there. 
Just you know, not an extravagant amount but enough to to get by I wonder if the Soviet you like back in the Soviet days like in the like before the 90s How did there was a thing called interest where if u.s. 
Citizens wanted to visit Soviet Union they could go to this First agency, I guess I wonder how they did that with the ruble. 
Yeah, there are similar things in Belarus I'm pretty sure so if you want to go back to the Soviet Union try try Bella. 
Well, don't try it now after And and you can get imprisoned in Belarus if if you take a train from Poland and you wind up in Belarus They will throw you in prison if you don't have a visa, so be careful I'm glad I'm not getting here. 
I don't think I'm gonna go anyway this year and maybe the whole conference will be my That's the right thinking the Belarusian passport is Installed in your passport. 
I mean the visa. 
I'm sorry Yeah visa the the Belarusian visa to get into the country is affixed to your past, you know Crazy crazy thought here. 
There's nothing wrong with getting a visa. 
I mean get a Belarusian visa get a Russian visas. 
Don't go But that's the passport fill your passport with visas. 
Why not? 
That's that's a that's nice safe way to travel except you're not going anywhere well, you know European your Portugal and European Union and Germany and London and Paris and you know, I went to Ukraine like two years ago and Uh-huh, you're mentioning unions and countries and cities, you know, it's a Europe is comprised of all of that. 
So, yeah Yeah, yeah, but I'm saying I went to Ukraine two years ago, you know, just Ukraine two years. 
Mm-hmm. 
It was a different place then Yeah But I'd like to this year go to Poland and Italy and in sweet Switzerland and Ireland. 
No reason you can't I Know I can't I I mean, well, it's a lot of money and I'd like to save it for you know, other things I'd like to go to odd countries, but you know, I'd like to this is like Europe and Common countries that people visit but rebel countries like you say, I'm sorry you say It's it's costly, but don't get don't get into that trap because that is the most common reason Americans say they can't go somewhere or they don't have time or that it's yeah too expensive That that is made up. 
That is like resort travel or like all-inclusive That kind of thing. 
It does not have to be expensive if you don't if you don't make it expensive Yeah, and and there's true, you know, but I like to but I like to enjoy the finer things in life Of course you do but you know that you're not like Now he saw he's high-class, but it's not the lion's share your trip There's certain things like if you ride an overnight train Well, then you don't you don't have a plate You don't have to worry about a hotel room because you're sleeping on the train You have a room on the train so that you get your your travel and your accommodations Like, you know, we took the QM to across the damn Atlantic Ocean that took like seven or eight days and you might say Oh you took an ocean liner but if you divide what we spent on it by what we would spend in a hotel for each one of those nights and the travel it actually It's not that much so it depends on how you think about it and also rebel just putting this out there when you go places you can You can often, you know spend money in places where the exchange rate is to your advantage You're supporting you're you're going to a strange place. 
You're supporting the economy there a little bit you're learning about it and And and many of the places when we were visiting former Soviet Former Yugoslavia Countries that they were a part of that many times we would be like amazed at just the quality and how How good people were to you the hospitality? 
yeah, it was extended to you, even though you're so you're from a far-flung place or or you know, you're not completely like Familiarized with the area that stuff is is so priceless when you're traveling and those little Little ways to be smart about it Can really make it quite affordable. 
I remember as a child there there was some kind of it was an airline or a travel agency or somebody that was Advertising going to Europe and and talking to those people who would always make excuses and and their line their pitch was You know If you keep making excuses every year you make excuse for not going to Europe Because it's too expensive because you think you can't afford it. 
You're one year closer to never going Such a dark way of selling travel to Europe, but it was effective But we just we hear a lot especially with people that are professionals. 
They work, you know in You know regular hours and stuff like that. 
They're like, yeah, I just can't get away I can't get away from the holiday or from families and this and that of the job You know Sometimes all of those things they're they're valid but cost shouldn't be it because there's so many cool things you can do to make it Worth your while or make it work for your situation. 
Well, that's all I'm saying Don't let it bar you from trying look at what you're not spending here when you're when you're over there Especially if you're able to rent out, you know your apartment or your house or something while you're away And then apply that to to travel but rebel, you know what? 
I would suggest if you're looking for interesting places to go try former Yugoslavia like Kyle mentioned because that's a bunch of really unique different countries and it is cheap as hell I mean you will find quality hotel rooms for like, you know, $40 or something food is is plentiful and cheap and good and There were just so many different places to to explore they're all different Right and Yeah, I would I mean, I actually I would never go on a cruise I wouldn't I don't think I would want to sleep on a boat or sleep on a train I mean, you know things like that. 
You should try at least the trains, you know I mean, I never slept on like a room in a train. 
You should try it you you want adventure. 
That's adventure Oh We've done that a few times but I'm talking about in Europe where they actually, you know Know how to do it Well, you can get a really nice room and it's very comfortable and you go right to sleep on the rail or or You test the waters. 
They're a little pun for you Remember the Liverpool to Belfast ferry that was overnight. 
That's true. 
Yeah, that's what I wanted to take. 
That's a short one Easily that was a great one. 
That would be really fun you take that Get a room or or the the hookah Harwich the hookah Harwich ferry that goes from England to Netherlands, that's that's an overnight ferry to that's that's you can get a room on that one No, I was gonna tell you I was gonna fly into Ireland and then go from Dublin to like Northern England Central England on a boat that takes like three or four hours Across like English mixing. 
Well, there's a faster boat, too But you know, they actually brought back the slow boat because people were complaining it wasn't as much fun So that gives you an idea of the spirit of travel something else you could do You could you could drive to Nova Scotia a place called Sydney and get on a ferry there get on a ferry there and take It to st. 
John's, Newfoundland. 
That's an overnight ferry and you know, it's you can do the whole thing I have been to Newfoundland. 
I mean, oh, I haven't been to Nova Scotia. 
Never been Newfoundland But I think last week you said you were in Newfoundland. 
So you must have meant Nova Scotia but mixing and matching Yeah, Newfoundland. 
You should check out. 
Yeah, Newfoundland's an island Mm-hmm. 
They're similar Newfoundland used to be its own country and in fact TV and radio stations They're still begin with V some of them. 
Make sure you try different modes though That's another great technique because just you get to put a little bit of space in between your connections but you go from one mode of transport and you just it kind of keeps you keeps you moving keeps you traveling and That pace will I think it's something that travelers grow to enjoy now I want to travel damn it rebel you you made me into a traveling with Alex Do you have any advice for rebel and his uh, his potential journeys here? 
I Think you guys have nailed it mostly and You know, I can Certainly attest to the fact that you can travel on the cheap I mean I have been all over Western Europe into parts of Eastern Europe just taking trains staying in hostels You know literally living off dollars per day You know, not not very recently, of course, but you know back in the in the 90s and in the early 2000s I mean you even was in Russia in 1999 and Just you know, I think back at it, too I was about you know, 20 years old and you know flew with a friend of mine and my girlfriend into Moscow and We didn't really have a plan We knew we wanted to get to st Petersburg and then maybe go into the Baltic States and we're just sort of figure it out from there And we had a few weeks and so You know, we just with no smartphones no GPS nothing but a guidebook Got on a plane went to sleep and landed in Moscow. 
Why did you fly to st. 
Petersburg? 
If that's where you want to go? 
Well, we wanted to go to Moscow first Oh, we want to travel up to st. 
Petersburg and then go from there either to the Baltic States or into Scandinavia And you know and we did it and we did it really really on the cheap And we were able to make our way around you know Russia without any GPS and and not really speaking the language I could speak a bit but Yeah, it was pretty awesome and I have some of my best memories and best stories from these crazy times where that were completely unscripted you just had a Destination and you figure it out as you go. 
It's still my my favorite way to travel They totally stick with you the memories. 
I was just thinking about Bratislava the other day You remember the places you ate, you know, or you know, you're in the first night where you're trying to get your bearings and What the town was like once you got more familiar with it. 
Yeah, it's amazing when you first arrive in a place It's completely different than the next day when you wake up and start exploring it It seems it seems alien and hostile and then you become really familiar with it You know, we felt that way in Sarajevo We took a bus from Croatia and and wound up in Sarajevo and it was so intimidating when we arrived there at night And we had no idea where we were and then the next day was most incredible thing Just going through this this this huge market with people from all different parts of the country all different religions It was it was really cool. 
It was it was one of the most amazing moments What I like about Russia as I see videos of everything like the food service like the McDonald's and the and the and the restaurants and the cafes, they're all clean it's like like like in a Picture perfect clean like that you see videos of like Russia and and and probably other countries too in Europe and even in Western Europe it's so clean like Unlike here in the United States where people don't care about cleanliness. 
Well, hold on a second You know that may that may be the case for like Switzerland or the Netherlands or something like that But I can tell you there are parts of Russia that are very very dirty and also London and and even Paris There's they they have dirt Yeah, I know but you know Well, my plan was to go to to go to Ireland and uh, see Ireland a little and then go take a boat to England Uh, and then like drive up to like Scotland and not drive up. 
I take a bus or train up to Scotland Yeah, that's that's a lot of fun. 
Have you ever driven on the other side of the road? 
That's why i'm not gonna do that. 
I'm not gonna try. 
No, you should try it's it's it's surprisingly easy It really is you just you just adapt you'll be surprised And and and oftentimes you have to drive a standard too, so you're shifting with one hand and yeah, the shifting's harder I know they're trying to get it And I thought I was going to go to Switzerland and go to Switzerland and see Switzerland Then I was going to go to like, you know, um, maybe Italy and Rome and then you know, Poland But it's going to cost like six thousand dollars for all this. 
Oh, no, no It should not cost anything like that. 
It really shouldn't get your train book. 
Yeah, your budget for train tickets, you know the um, um You should get the train book like kyle suggested. 
I forget what it used to be the thomas cook train timetable Um, it's um, european rail. 
Yeah, just look up the european rail timetable It's it's a book comes out every month And you can you just have a copy sent to you and it's you know, the times usually stay about the same throughout the year Um, what is it? 
Yeah, the european rail timetable Uh, it's published every month. 
It used to be called the thomas cook european rail timetable Get this book even if you don't go anywhere if you study this you'll see all the possibilities and it's really fascinating, right? 
But i'm not going to take the train to some london england to switzerland. 
I mean you can Absolutely. 
Can you take a eurostar and even the best plans? 
Can't account for maybe some change maybe um, there's a reason you want to stay somewhere longer If you have a resource at your fingertips where you can just flip through it Um that doesn't rely on cell service or foreign, you know, uh sims and stuff You can just flip through it change your plans Go get the tickets make your arrangements and all of a sudden you're you're um You're traveling with a different itinerary on the fly Because you never know Worry about airlines like going to the airlines and changing things like then, you know I fly from london to switzerland on like swissair and then uh, Rebel there's rebel. 
There's a great website. 
I'm going to give you right now. 
You got a got a pen You might already know it. 
Uh, yeah, okay. 
It's called seat61.com Okay seat61.com it's a it's a thorough guide to rail systems all around the world including prices and possibilities And you just basically click on any country this guy will explain how their trains work how you connect to them How you get the cheapest ticket? 
It's just fascinating to read even if you don't go it's fascinating to read this So check that out And there are buses too that you can you know, I don't know much about buses but yeah, there are buses That's about all I know Anyway, we're gonna we're gonna move on because there are other people who might want to get through and we're almost almost done tonight But um, keep us updated Yeah, all right. 
Take care Okay I I admire his enthusiasm, you know, and I hope he um I hope he gets to travel a lot. 
I hope we all do All right, the calls are coming in fast and furious I Can't see the screen Kyle It doesn't matter we're gonna pick up not who it is so it's not like, uh, it's a guest pass or something like that I almost hung up Because of who they are. 
No, I hit the wrong button because I was trying to show you. 
Uh, some information I just I like to give you the area code at least a little hint about where where the call is coming Yeah, unfortunately that caller id device when you when you pivot it, uh, the the light glares off it. 
I just know it's not backlit Yes, it's terrible old school good evening you're on off the govertime Seriously, yeah, you're seriously on Well, hey, emmanuel. 
It's good to hear from you and talk to you. 
This is your old friend. 
Pam. 
I'm calling to old. 
Hey, man Nice to hear your voice and the whole show was great Uh, your old buddy red balaclava aka, uh jeopardy. 
Jim is really not doing well so we heard and alex And emmanuel is he's much worse. 
He's like 123 pounds at six foot five Uh, his spirits are good. 
I sent you all his actual phone number You can dial it like an old modem with commas in the middle to get right to his extension and his bed I thought that would make everybody like giggle a little and then do it. 
Is there is there? 
Is there information you can give to the general public so that uh, yes Okay, absolutely go right ahead me too and i'm happy to read the number right now go right ahead Okay, jim's direct number Is one seven one eight two oh five eighty one hundred his extension is four oh five So you could put comma comma four oh five and get right to his bed or you can ask the operator for extension 405 Or jim vichench That's his last name. 
It's hard to say v-i-c-h-e-n-c-h He doesn't speak very well, but he absolutely understands everything everybody says And he would love to hear from you guys anybody who wants to call him It doesn't matter who? 
He's he's probably only got two to six months to live. 
We'll know more at the end of the month, but That's awful Call him, please. 
Please call him. 
Yeah, he's listening now, too. 
Oh, he is shout out to jim. 
He's listening to overtime I sent him. 
Yes. 
I sent him chinese food. 
I always do when he listens to the show and he I put I Was talking to him and I said go watch overtime. 
He has youtube. 
That's what he has. 
He doesn't have email they didn't install his twitter i'm working with their it to get it, but so, um, we'll get email and twitter and everything else set up for him within the week, but uh, I was just there and it's really bad conditions and I might actually break him out and just take care of him myself Um, and he's allowed to so it's okay. 
Okay. 
Well, we won't go into details on that but but uh, Thanks for the information as far as just uh, free jimba tench and uh, please call him Just give him a call shout out on the on the show, whatever you can do Um, he would love to hear from anybody who wants to talk to him. 
Thank you. 
All right, pam. 
Thank you so much Hey, man, thanks for taking the call. 
Of course. 
It's been a long time. 
All right, you take care Well, that's so sad to hear, you know those of you, um, Who've listened to the show for a while will remember that jim, uh was a part of this show for for a number of years uh back in um, the early 21st century, I think before that as well he was at the first hope in fact That's I think where we where we first got to know him Uh as red balaclava the guy who was talking about hacking the metro card Uh, and just uh, it's been a part of our lives for so many years after that and uh, Boy, you know, he had suffered a stroke continued to come to the radio station continue to be a part of the hacker community continue to uh, come to the meetings and to um, uh to the conferences And i'm going to hold out hope that um, there's uh some kind of miracle that uh is in store for him. 
He certainly deserves that but please um Reach out if you're able to please reach out Uh adding to that if I could is uh, you know speaking speaking directly to jim, you know, we we love you we miss you uh, and I I always look fondly on on the times and I thought it was just awesome of him to When it was so difficult for him to get around and to communicate To come and meet us for dinner after off the hook Some really great times where you know, we're this this crazy band of misfits packing into the car Getting it, you know driving from brooklyn into manhattan and walking around arguing about places to eat and what to drink and Um, you know, those were really good times and uh, I I I know he still has his independent spirit and uh, Still aware of all the things going on around them. 
Yeah, i'll just uh remind everyone he was the token republican on off the hook So he says he would remind people often and I want people to be very clear that he had a Very firm political position, but you know, I enjoyed not afraid. 
I enjoyed talking to him more than other republicans So that's why you know, I uh, it's it's hard to imagine him in that in that camp our beloved token republican All right. 
We have another phone call. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the hook over time. 
Go ahead Hello you're talking to me now, yeah talking to you go ahead Hey, what's going on eric, this is adam from stony brook country corner wsb and i'm now in germany Calling you. 
I know who you are. 
Okay. 
Yes. 
Hi. 
How you doing? 
Very well you this is uh, I turned on my youtube and I saw that off the hook overtime was on And I I figured out the number and I've called you. 
I haven't thought this through but here we are. 
Hello. 
How you doing? 
Quite all right. 
Uh-huh And uh, this is wild because uh, I I've sent you an email about it But you're kind of I don't know if we're allowed to talk about foreign radio stations on wbai Oh, of course, but we're not on wbai right now. 
We're on youtube. 
Yeah, it's over time. 
Yeah, um, I started um, Uh, i'm in germany down in bavaria and I started uh, my corona project Uh exactly two years ago was to start an internet radio station here. 
Uh-huh and uh And I started alone and now we have like 40 people making shows. 
Oh, wow, but very often Late night, we play old brain damages. 
Oh my god, we download from 2600 Wow For those who don't know brain damage is a show that I used to do back in the 1980s and early 90s And yeah, it's all available on 2600.com boy how embarrassing Yep, I I did ask your permission yet at some point. 
But yeah, we play these old Brain damage and just let it run. 
Um, and you know, they'll talk about They'll be talking about the tawana brawley case or just the the primary election from 1988 Or Just whatever was going on in the day and it's and it's wild or a lot of satan Satan music, uh on there, you know, uh-huh There there is wonderful. 
There is uh people are here. 
Uh They love it, it's really just wild there was a period where we We went christian for a while. 
We did christian brain damage. 
Yeah, we played those too. 
Yeah That was uh, I would I felt enlightened. 
It was wonderful. 
Uh-huh It just it demonstrates the fun you can have you have fun you can have with radio and I think you know What the folks over at wusb where we still do a show on tuesdays uh, they just uh inspired me to be creative and a lot of what I do now is is a direct result of that when I was in college It's it's been an inspiration for us here, um, we we do a weekly, uh local politics show um That we talk about all the corruption because corruption's everywhere even in in the promised land of europe and germany Corruption everywhere, you know, we're building a street, but it'll cost three million dollars if you let us, you know, um, same old stuff But uh our opening, uh, uh music to it is is still the uh, philip glass, uh your opening Wow, okay use that we stole it. 
It's wonderful palakatsi. 
I believe is where that comes from That's the one but actually took one where you threw lots of effects on and echoes and messed with it Yeah, we we we cut that out of a brain damage and use that it's sort of an homage That is so amazing to hear that uh that show lives on up to so long and uh, you know that that's why we Try to we try to archive everything because you never know who's going to speak to years down the road I know there are people who listen to shows almost randomly and they they send an email to us Arguing points that we made 30 years ago or you know, 10 years ago And uh, sometimes they say hey you were right about this So this is exactly what happened and sometimes we're completely wrong, but it's just it's fascinating that it still works Can you tell people the name of of your uh, radio, uh station or whatever you call it? 
Yeah, it's it's it's called ghost town radio ghost town radio. 
Um It's based out of regensburg germany. 
Okay, and uh ghost, uh dash mina, uh ghost go I can do this ghost dash town dash uh radio uh dot de Um, but we're only on live we have no archives it's live or never but uh And uh, we have a lot of people just make shows and and we do uh some live stuff um We do a lot of live stuff basically for for two years. 
My apartment was a radio station Wow, and we did almost pirate shows because everyone had to stay home at night. 
Uh, um But we'd still come here and do these shows it was really weird and uh different guests would come and We just hang out all night because you couldn't be on the street after nine o'clock It was a lockdown till five in the morning, right? 
So we were stuck from nine in the morning till five in the morning I mean nine at night till five in the morning and we just do radio all night. 
It's great. 
It's it's an amazing Calls and and just play music and talk about it was wild. 
It was a pretty punk rock What's so fantastic about what you're saying is that this is not it's there's elements of it that are very um, very vintage very old school kind of um, i'm hearing like last century stuff about this where it's uh, uh lockdowns or curfews or you know, and and people are just uh, uh seeking that that comfort in the radio, but what's fascinating too is how um, So many other elements can be connected I mean much in the way we have calls here or in the radio stations, but being able to um, Tell those stories to people in all kinds of places, uh over the internet, but also bring in people bring in stories bring in um, other forms of technology and and uh Story things that augment that storytelling is fascinating because we have so much more that we can connect up and do now So I love that you're you're playing and and exploring this medium Well, we did it. 
Yeah, we did it, you know, we could take calls I figured out a way to wire that in then we could take facebook book calls or whatever We will you know, we'd always expand what we could do And then you know, we're in germany. 
We have shows they're being made from northern germany and switzerland and sweden Some people jumped in they found us and made their own show. 
It's pretty cool. 
And you get listeners from all around the world Yeah, but most of it most of it's local most of us in germany, but you'd be surprised I can see where the There's people who pop in from everywhere. 
It's cool Now, I know you said that you don't keep archives, but but you know You're taking shows from the 1980s that I did and using them somebody could do the same thing with you So I I suggest you uh, you keep archives I know I keep archives i've recorded every second. 
We've ever oh good broadcast because of the way things are here um with um um I can't have archives because then you have to pay Um, I can't have it on our site Because because of the hosting music. 
Yeah copyrighted music and germany is actually really strict with this stuff extremely strict Yeah, you notice that on youtube sometimes things are available every country except germany because they have they have strict laws really bad but like, you know, I I intend to to load, you know, load it up to the internet archive, which i'm a big fan of yes And just get it up there Or or just make our own or we you know, we we have now just tons of time um, that'll come but right now It's also my philosophy the problem. 
We we do radio and and people like that that you have archives I say no because right now, uh, the idea is You know you listen live or you don't and as soon as people know Oh, I can listen later and then they then I know they won't listen now and they won't listen later Okay, yeah if we're talking in a in a time span of weeks, you know, yeah, that's a that's a valid. 
Uh, uh approach and it's it's um uh, I mean it makes people uh, uh, uh, It's a style. 
I think it's a stylistic choice almost right? 
Oh, definitely totally the lot the live, uh warmness of radio just we're all talking to each other We're all here. 
It's a shared experience um, and there's not that much left of that in the world these days, so Very true. 
We catch it together or we don't catch it at all And then you know in a few years I'll load it up, you know, i'll get it out there but right now day to day Because I really I really believe yeah as soon as they people know Yeah, you can listen to it at your convenience then their convenience is never Interesting because that is how a lot of um, uh, a lot of uh stations operate They do have archives, but I see your point where you know If you want people to listen live that might dissuade them from doing that My my only advice is just make sure you have backups of all those archives because you know Media always goes bad. 
I'm having I have two hard drives in two different houses good. 
Okay No, do you do regular scheduling or are um Like are there regular programs because that may may make it also a little bit easier In other words places that are archiving people are maybe can't actually listen to one or the other program in the grid so to speak Well individual djs can can load and they can do whatever they want with their show, you know, that's fine But we did a hybrid thing because really we had a really hard lockdown here in germany Like it was or at least in bavaria. 
We were the hardest there was We had six months where you just you could only have one person at your house Uh, everything was closed for six months uh Back in 20, you know fall of 2020 to the the spring of 2021 You just couldn't have guests. 
You couldn't do anything uh for six months and so we did our format was I would do live shows out of my place, but everyone else like Um, hey, you make a radio show send me your hour Record it. 
You gotta you gotta talk and tell us what music you're playing or whatever you're doing and you send me. 
Um, Uh a wave file And i'll program it in in your slot So basically they were recorded podcasts um But in a schedule that everyone was listening to and the thing was also because I'm paying the fees for music We can actually use because people were using twitch and youtube for a little while until they said no Copyrighted music you're out, you know and So here everyone, you know, they would do their show, you know once a week we'd have the punk rock show and we'd have the we'd have the the grindcore show and all these people their thing and they I They had to you know, do it like a radio show, but they'd send me the hour and I'd plug it into their to their hour you know And that's how we did it for a long time and then the live shows would come out of my apartment That's great, especially under the circumstance that really probably complemented. 
Um what people were going through and that intimacy And uh, it seems like it's created. 
It's uh become a real community for you Oh, totally. 
I was I was shocked. 
It was really cool. 
Um, and uh, yeah, I started really alone two two friends three shows And then in two weeks it was every day People just jumped in. 
Uh-huh. 
They're all addicted That's amazing. 
It shows You know, maybe someday over there. 
They'll give you a frequency you can broadcast over the actual airwaves No, no, no, I'd never want one you wouldn't want that. 
Um, because here it's it's it's so regulated It's so Every 10 minutes I have to tell you what the weather's going to be. 
It's really no like free radio um freedom here, um I don't know. 
I mean tightly controlled the public airwaves are It's no fun at all I I I like to know more about that because I always had the impression that pretty much every place You know, you could broadcast more things than you can here in the states. 
So maybe everyone just has that perception of their country Yeah, I know and germany's terrible. 
Huh? 
Um, yeah, you know, they really have to make sure they're they it's not as free here on paper, it's free, but Not at all The media here is very top down. 
We'll take care of you. 
It's you know, it's all basically bbc stuff Yeah, but that's that's the public channels. 
What about what about commercial channels? 
Are they they have to do the same thing? 
They're terrible. 
They're the worst. 
Uh-huh um, but they still you know, every 15 minutes they're going to give you a little bit of news and they just have to do all this stuff and All right, then a pirate frequency. 
Let's do that Just not obey any i'd love to man, but i'm not messing with it. 
They'll find me in a heartbeat man. 
That's true. 
Yeah Well, i'm glad you're doing what you're doing on the internet works. 
You can throw it on your cell phone You can I do love the idea of a real radio where you can hear it wherever you are It's in the air around you but right now with with wi-fi or just with cell phone stuff You can listen wherever you are, man. 
That's true. 
And you know what you can rebroadcast it over your airwaves somewhere So that's that's always the magic of radio Yeah, no, it's it was it's really cool and and that's the thing over here in germany they don't really have a community radio, um, tradition They don't have that Um, and that's why a lot of people jumped in they were like what I can just do a show Yeah, whatever I want like yeah, so I can play whatever I want. 
Yeah That's really cool. 
You have to talk. 
It's not a spotify playlist You have to talk and you know, tell us why and you know, so the personality so adam I'm gonna ask you to buy it. 
I'm gonna ask you to give out the um, none of that They don't have the bottom of the dial, right? 
college They don't have that here at all I'm gonna ask you to give out the address one more time and and tell us uh, Are you on the air 24 7 or what hours you are at all? 
Okay. 
So what hours can people hear you right now on a week because I do everything So we're doing a break till easter, but it's um ghost dash town dash, uh radio Dot de deutschland, you know germany We usually broadcast we broadcast Our show is live in the evening here, which we afternoon at you by you know in your time zone And then we repeat it the next day um But every day I post the schedule for that day. 
So I see you call yourselves the moral airwaves The moral airwaves actually right now wait, let me check let me check my website What is are we still the moral airwaves? 
That's what it says the moral airwaves right now actually our our motto is culturally appropriate Okay Wow I love the typeface. 
We change it every month. 
Uh-huh Well good good Adam was great hearing from you. 
It's a really cool thing and we got people just jumping in and doing stuff Uh, you know, it's amazing that you know, you're from you're from the local area on long island and uh here you are in germany now Uh doing radio over there Uh, it's it's it's incredible Oh, yeah, I I caught the bug, you know, you know from my dad he did radio at wsb a long time too I remember the classical the classical shows that he did were were phenomenal Yeah, that was he was top-notch we've actually played some of them and they were a big hit here too because I've A bunch of his cassettes and we actually did classical mondays for a while Every monday we play like one side of a tape because he recorded everything as well We just play one side. 
So for a month for a month, we play the schubert special which is a three-hour show, but it takes Uh four side, you know, you know Every every every monday 45 minutes of it, you know Uh-huh, and uh people loved it. 
Yeah, it was incredibly popular, uh on long island. 
Absolutely But also yeah your brain damage is also just the people call like wow, this is so amazing Just how free it was how the people would talk and call the children would talk and also the politics Like, you know, it's amazing even back then it was you know Dude, a lot of the calls are really reactionary um or really just just You know really totally offensive like wow But instead of freaking out and saying and calling them enough you're like, yeah, you'd ask them like oh, yeah Why do you think that? 
Okay, where are you? 
And it was with tongue-in-cheek and you let them Dig their own grave and pretty much And just the act of letting them talk about it. 
Then suddenly they weren't so angry as when they started. 
That's true It was a really wild show Well, it's bringing back a lot of memories just hearing you describe it so Wow, i'm glad it had that effect and the best part is always the concert billboard right at the beginning Just to hear what was playing at the roseland You know on april 2nd 1991, you know, right, right The concert billboard was ridiculous. 
What how how it was so it was just every night was bands. 
You've heard of crazy Uh-huh well the way to get to it, let's go to 2600.com and Hover over the radio selection and you'll see an other selection click on that and you'll see brain damage You can listen to every episode And uh, we live great through the 80s and the 90s out. 
They're so wild Wow. 
Well, thank you so much. 
Adam is great hearing from you I hope you come back to the states at some point or i'll be back in july I'll let you know and just i'll ask you here. 
Um at one point Um, i'd love to have you as a guest on our radio live the people would love it. 
Absolutely. 
Absolutely. 
Definitely We'll work that out and maybe when you're in new york, you can you can Thank you for taking my call and keep doing what you do. 
This is fantastic All right, maybe we'll see you at the hope conference when you come to new york in july. 
So, uh, look forward to that What's the date on that? 
Uh, the 22nd through the 24th I might just be there. 
Okay, and then i'll show up. 
That'll be great hope.net all the details But uh great hearing from you and um and keep the spirit alive Always all right first station of the 90s, baby. 
Good night. 
Good luck. 
Sleep. 
Well dream. 
Well, all right be well Okay, that's gonna be the last call. 
I know we have a lot of calls coming in but uh, That was awesome. 
So I try to say that again That was awesome to hear from him. 
Yes, and uh be thrust back into that Well, just you realize you don't know who's out there, you know, and who you have an effect on That's uh, that that was like being uh retweeted from the 80s or something you remember brain damage right alex Yeah, I remember it. 
I do. 
Yeah And and I love that. 
He brought up the concert billboard because I could hear it I had now and I haven't fit in 20 something years and I mean I remember that from the 90s The concert billboard on wsb was amazing And was it wasn't it? 
Christina that we had a whole bunch of different people who did it Um, but basically it's people listening concerts that are playing I guess that's entertaining now to hear what what and who was playing where But but it was how you learned about who was playing where back then too. 
You listened to the radio Somebody told you That you know at the roseland or the wetlands was this band or that band and it was long island and it was the city So, you know it was uh, it covered a very wide geographic area. 
I I Yeah, I would love to hear the concert billboard again well You can just go to the website and click on one of those shows and and we have shows We have shows that are even earlier than that voice of long island was the early 80s. 
So Oh boy, it's a real trip down memory lane interesting to just have a you know a podcast. 
We're not taking that. 
I'm, sorry We're not taking that You know, I think that would be uh amazing um, but before we sign off though, I I do want to uh explain something if we have a few minutes because uh, I left hanging out there that I was a defendant today in court. 
Oh, yeah. 
Yeah. 
Tell us more. 
What did you do? 
What were you alleged to have done? 
So I have uh, I got a I got a ticket A traffic ticket. 
Oh no over two years ago, you know right before covet started. 
Wow. 
All right Uh, when was it? 
Uh, it was yeah was it in late? 
Uh, february or kind of mid-february I guess of 2020 And I was I was going over the williamsburg bridge where I was about to go over the williamsburg bridge And I uh, I got pulled over for not having a front license plate on my car You know, I bought the car in pennsylvania where you don't need it So they didn't have the hardware there and i've been driving it around for a really long time Ben never had a front license plate. 
So this cop this particular day decided Well, you know that was it and it was my turn to get a ticket for not having a front license plate Hang on one second. 
Alex. 
Is it pennsylvania plates or new york plates? 
New york plates. 
Well, i'm gonna have to side with the cop on that because new york you do require both sides But how did he wait for the car? 
Did he wait for the car to pass by and check to see if it was new york or pennsylvania? 
Probably. 
Yeah. 
Well, I mean he did come up from the you know behind me so Yeah, it was right before I got on the bridge. 
So I almost escaped to brooklyn You know where of course I have no jurisdiction, right? 
But uh So any event so he gives me this ticket he writes me a ticket tells me why You know turns his body cam on and all this, you know, it makes a big spectacle the whole thing and uh And I and I have to say the guy was just such a jerk He was really, you know, uh arrogant You know nasty kept me waiting for forever and i'm going out to brooklyn to do this training thing this surveillance thing and um In any event he uh, he comes back and he's nasty I get to get the freaking ticket and I decide you know what Uh, i'm going to contest the ticket and try to see if I can negotiate it down Because I I think it was going to be a moving violation which would then increase my insurance and all this and you know It would be a pretty significant fine So I was like forget this, you know So I I uh, I pleaded not guilty. 
I was going to try to negotiate the fee and then Uh covid hit So the hearing was pushed back and then covid got worse It was pushed back and it was pushed back like three or four times And then I rescheduled it and rescheduled it until finally today was the day where I had this hearing and it was online And so I show up for this online hearing uh on time Because your driver's license will be suspended if you fail to show up for this online hearing which seems insane You know if you can't get webex to work you're you're going to lose your driver's license Wow, so I uh, I show up to the online hearing and you're just waiting there It's dot dot dot your hearing will begin momentarily dot dot dot, you know on on a website and it's not refreshing or You don't have a queue number. 
You have no idea. 
You're just You have faith that this website is ultimately going to refresh and bring you to a page where magically You're going to have a virtual hearing about your ticket Uh, and there was some There was some message that had a timestamp from like 12 hours before that instructed you to uh Download webex. 
I put webex on as the client Finally after waiting like 25 minutes without any kind of counter the page Indicates that it's now going to redirect me to the hearing and the hearing is going to begin And it forces a download of webex, so if you don't have it installed you install it then wow While everybody's waiting for your hearing But I had it installed so the hearing went into it not seamlessly I would say but uh There were some weird video and sound problems and then all of a sudden you're in the hearing And you see this hearing officer. 
He begins to ask you who you are. 
You know, what's the ticket number? 
You know, we're on the record there's going to be hearing and then I realized this isn't a negotiation with like, uh an ada To try to get something dropped down to maybe like, you know, a broken taillight or something like that This is the actual trial and they had the police officer who gave me the ticket There to give testimony now when you say there First of all this this hearing officer was he in a hearing room? 
Was he at his house and was the cop in the same room as him? 
The cop was in the same room as him except it seemed like a big room Where they have individual booths that where you can go in and have these hearings It doesn't seem a bit unfair though The cop is in the same room as the as the person is going to decide if you're guilty or innocent How come you're not in that room pleaded not guilty this thing so many times this was like the actual trial I didn't realize this but it was like the actual trial where you know, they're going to determine based on testimony You realize you required him to be there The cop was required to be because you contested it Yeah, yeah, because I contested they had to take this cop off duty and bring him there, right? 
Like the hearing officer says to me. 
All right. 
Well, you know, this is how it's gonna work I'm gonna take testimony from the from the responding officer and that's when I realized like what? 
That the guy is even there right so, you know, or where is he I thought he was virtually somewhere else And then we're going to hear testimony from you. 
And then if I find you guilty We're going to look at your driving history and figure out, you know, what an appropriate penalty is. 
So According to what I see on the website here That's 200 plus a 93 surcharge for not having a front license plate in new york, but you don't get points on your license Yeah, and what the hell does it have? 
What does that do with your driving history it's not driving yeah I thought you know, I I thought you got points on your license for that But if it but it said it was basically a 300 fine, right? 
Right? 
No so I uh Said yeah, the guy tells me, you know, this is how it's going to work Said uh, okay, and then he asked me, you know, do you have an attorney? 
So I said to him well, you know I am an attorney and he said well, he's like well, that's not what I asked You know, do you have somebody who's here to represent you? 
Do you realize you could have just gone off screen and put on a hat or something and pretended to be somebody else? 
Like, you know roger an american dad does Why yes, uh your honor I am uh representing Oh, I mean this is this is this could be a whole youtube can't do that in court, but you can do that online Hold your finger up for a mustache That's right the mustache nose glasses you put them on Right No, no, that guy has a different color mustache or you can have one of your kids be your lawyer I mean, you don't have to show a certification that you're actually a lawyer because it's all online That's that's true. 
That's right Well, I just turned my face into a cat like the lawyer who actually was in a hearing with a judge Accidentally had that became, you know a viral sensation in 2020. 
That really was a good one So in any event this guy uh He asked me. 
Yeah, so, you know, do you have a lawyer? 
I said well, I am a lawyer That's not what I asked you is, you know, somebody gonna represent you So I I laughed a little bit. 
I said i'm i'm happy to go pro se here, you know You know meaning, you know for for yourself or by yourself so he he had a little chuckle about that and then he goes and Starts taking testimony from the police officer where he just turns the camera around There's the guy standing behind this thing. 
This is you know, you say your name, you know, you know, who are you responding officer? 
He said, you know, okay. 
Tell me your uh Tell me what happened, you know on february blah blah blah blah, you know, the the Respondent was driving a vehicle eastbound Uh on delancey street and I noticed he didn't have a front license plate. 
So I pulled him over and issued the citation That's essentially what he said and the hearing officer then uh asked him Is that the uh full sum and substance of your testimony and the officer said yes, it is And then the hearing officer turned the camera back to himself and he said uh, mr. 
Abellas um I find the testimony of the hearing officer To have certain material deficiencies and I find the charging instrument to have certain material deficiencies and i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and Uh declare you not guilty. 
Wait a minute. 
Hold on a second. 
I I don't I don't normally take the side of cops, but What's deficient about what he said what he said is what happened? 
How is that deficient? 
Well, there there are certain deficiencies on the ticket. 
I don't think that he tied the registration directly over to me And his testimony also didn't name Me as the owner of the car, so he may have failed to establish a material element, which was that I own the vehicle that Uh, he had pulled over quite possibly but in any event, I just think that the hearing officer Realized this was a two-year-old ticket for something really stupid And and gave me a little bit of I don't know if it was professional courtesy if it was just being a decent human being I hope it was the latter rather than the former but um You know, he just discounted the testimony of the cop Declared me not guilty and it gave me such great joy because again that cop was such a jerk He was really rude really arrogant and he was forced to go in and give testimony in this inconsequential matter That was then summarily dismissed and I was declared not guilty and think of the awkwardness afterwards because they're in the same room And he just said you know what without without the defendant saying a single word. 
I don't believe you Have a good day or or you know Sometimes what they do, uh in hearings with cops the cop has to go in and do all his tickets on the same day So he might have just gone to the next person and the cop might have stayed in the room with that hearing officer Oh, maybe that's you know, that'd be an efficient way of doing it You know if he had lots of contested tickets for sure I can't imagine so many of them get that far down the road though, but I I don't know But it was a uh, yeah, it was a great. 
Uh, I feel like you know, i've had a lot of wonderful legal victories Uh so far well, can I ask can I ask did you ever put a front license plate on that car? 
Yeah, I did almost immediately. 
Oh, you did. 
Okay, so you did learn something Of course, yeah, all right, absolutely. 
Yeah But um, but yeah, that was the uh, that was that was the story of uh, my virtual hearing today. 
It was pretty good on that note, uh, we started with uh horrors in courtroom and we end with with triumph in the courtroom of sorts, I guess um Yeah, so I guess we're going to sign off. 
Um all the time. 
Um tonight, you know one day i'm going to forget to sign off and Broadcast everything that happens after the show for hours and hours, but I think that's it for tonight any closing remarks Uh, I just want to thank everyone for listening and uh send out lots of uh warmth and love to jim Yeah, absolutely It's uh, it's hard to even fathom. 
What's uh, that entirely. 
Yeah, we miss you jim and um, you know, we weren't sure if we could announce Anything publicly about your health, which is why we why we didn't I think that that's worth mentioning too and um, you know, but but for covid and everything, I think we all would have been You know back together a hell of a lot sooner. 
We'll hope to see you soon Yeah, and I think speaking for rob and gila the the sentiment, uh would probably uh, definitely be extended from them as well um also Virgil front of mind for us. 
I hope for many of you. 
Um, you can share you can learn from his story I hope um You know what now is what i've been thinking as i've been sitting and listening to a lot of this. 
So, um i'll try to shake the headache and uh, and uh And we can hopefully look ahead to something better. 
But please share this story. 
Let's let's try to learn from this and and i'll be um Better for it as if that's even possible Okay on that note We're gonna say good night. 
We will see you next week off the hook at 7 p.m on wbai And i'll talk over time 8 p.m on channel 2600. 
Everything is on 2600.com archives live shows And um and more hope.net for anything Regarding the conference. 
Yeah, the hope conference coming up a new hope july 22nd through 24th. 
St John's university In queens it's going to be awesome and we have plenty of room still for more speakers and Workshops and all sorts of ideas of ways. 
You can participate all the details on hope.net more to come in the days and weeks ahead Again, see you next week. 
Good night