It's just about 7 o'clock on a Wednesday evening. 
And that means it's time for Off the Hook. 
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall. 
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a cough. 
It couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would. 
Bundyly Bumper, the best, expect the worst. 
I hope that's understood. 
Bundyly Bumper! 
All right. 
We'll be right back. 
Distorted, if somebody could maybe fix that. 
Yeah, this is Emanuel here. 
Are we okay? 
Kyle over there. 
How do you sound? 
Hey, what's up? 
You sound much better than I do for some reason. 
I've been told that. 
Okay. 
And in Skype land, we have Rob T. Firefly. 
Good evening. 
We have Gila. 
Good evening. 
And we have Alex. 
Alex, are you on a train? 
Alex, you're moving your mouth, but no sound is coming out. 
And you're still doing it. 
Does sound not work on trains? 
Is that the problem here? 
Okay. 
This is silly. 
He's talking, but can you hear me, Alex? 
Nod your head if you can hear me. 
All right. 
We can't hear you, so you have to figure out how to make your microphone work. 
While everybody in New York waits, you have to get your microphone to work. 
How fast is that train going? 
I don't know. 
Faster than the speed of sound, apparently. 
Faster. 
Way fast. 
Yeah. 
Okay. 
So we have a backup plan. 
In case this doesn't work, we can call him on the phone. 
Oh, of course. 
All right. 
All right. 
See, now you're distorted. 
Yeah. 
Okay. 
Well, folks. 
Alex, any progress? 
Because this is not helpful for a radio audience. 
Let's have somebody we can't hear. 
Okay. 
Well, now you're muted on Skype. 
You weren't before, I don't think. 
All right. 
Are you able to see this, Rob? 
Are you able to see what the problem is? 
I'm able to see the mute icon showing that his Skype is muted from his end. 
Okay. 
So that tells me he tried to... 
And now he's put the phone down. 
He tried to unmute himself. 
And so doing double muted himself. 
Okay. 
Well, let's get him on the phone, then, if we can't get him on the... 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
I'll go ahead and work on that. 
Okay. 
So let's see. 
What are we supposed to... 
Yeah. 
He's holding his finger up. 
But do you have a solution, Alex? 
Okay. 
I don't know how we're supposed to communicate this way. 
This is insane. 
Maybe he's getting him to stop the train. 
Alex, if you get out of the quiet car, that might help. 
Maybe that's the case. 
Maybe he's on a car he's not able to speak. 
Yeah. 
Let's get him on the phone. 
That's our solution here. 
Okay. 
So we have... 
Let me just launch into... 
We're in the final... 
Actually, we extended our EFF fundraiser for the HOPE Conference up until this coming Friday. 
So that means that if you want to support the Electronic Frontier Foundation, who basically are responsible for any remaining rights that we might have on the Internet and in the digital world, you can do two things at once. 
You can go to the HOPE Conference and support EFF as we're donating 10% of every ticket sold up until the end of this week, up until the end of Friday. 
So go to HOPE.net. 
There's more details there. 
Normally, that runs through the month of April. 
We decided to extend it another week because we're terrible at promotion, and we just weren't promoting it nearly enough. 
But I think now we... 
Hopefully, we'll get more people involved. 
And also, you know, speaking of... 
I hear sound. 
Is that good? 
I believe Alex is now rejoining us audio only, or he is back with both audio and video, and it's working. 
Okay. 
All right. 
There you are. 
There you are. 
You know, someday we've got to test these things before the show. 
Okay, so... 
When will the fun be in that? 
Yeah, no fun at all. 
I'm sure our listeners would agree. 
So anyway, just finishing up here, for people who want to get involved in the conference as far as giving talks, we're still accepting speaker submissions. 
We're still accepting workshop submissions. 
For those who don't know, the Hacking on Planet Earth conference takes place July 22nd through 24th at the campus of St. 
John's University. 
It's going to be an amazing hacker gathering, and there's all kinds of ways to participate, to be a part of that. 
So all the details, again, at HOPE.net. 
We've been tearing our hair out, organizing things, and it's going to be a lot of fun. 
All right. 
So let me just say, at the start of the show, because the Supreme Court material that you might have heard about was leaked illegally, we're not allowed to talk about it. 
So we have to skip that subject. 
You're joking. 
That's not true. 
Imagine if that were true. 
But I see people nodding and saying, okay, I'll comply. 
No, don't do that. 
Don't do that. 
That's wrong. 
We're sometimes told things that are basically false, given rules that don't make sense. 
And you always have to question. 
You always have to question when you're told certain things. 
So, yes, of course we can talk about the leak of the Supreme Court decision about Roe v. 
Wade and how unprecedented such a thing must be. 
Alex, as a lawyer yourself, you must be blown away by living in a time where the Supreme Court is basically being dismantled by being shown to be an organization of political hacks. 
I mean, I don't want to be too harsh there, but I think that's pretty accurate right now. 
Alex, are you there? 
Now he's frozen. 
This is ridiculous. 
It's just the 21st century here, and we can't make a - okay, can we just get him on the phone already, please, Kyle? 
Thank you. 
Yeah. 
We had better connectivity in the 80s, I think. 
So, okay, how about Rob and Gila? 
How about you take this? 
Okay, well, out of the two of us, I think I should be the one to speak about this. 
So, no, go ahead, please. 
I am - oh, my goodness. 
Angry is not even the word to - does not even begin to cover it. 
I was saying to someone this morning I've just kind of existed at a state of low-grade nausea for the last couple of days, and I am curious what the endgame of this leak is. 
And there are so many things that could happen because of it, but wondering where and why and how and what it means. 
And ultimately, I find myself less concerned with the mechanics of the leak than I am with its contents. 
And as a person with a uterus, I am utterly terrified. 
Even as a person living in a state where reproductive rights have been enshrined in state law, as a person with a uterus, I am terrified. 
And I could keep repeating that I am terrified. 
So, if anybody has anything that's more productive, I'd be happy to hear that, too. 
Well, you know, it's interesting. 
There's been a lot of activity, obviously, on Twitter about this particular subject. 
And I had some interesting conversations when this was taking place on Monday night. 
And the thing that bugged me, I was basically, you know, upset like everybody was. 
And one of the comments I made was, you know, what might change this is a million people on the street. 
And overwhelmingly, I was lambasted for saying such a thing. 
No, that won't do any good at all. 
We tried that. 
It didn't work. 
Everybody is so jaded, so cynical. 
They just assume that, no, you can't do anything about it. 
It's done. 
And I was getting the same reaction from people who were on the right, who supported what the Supreme Court is about to do, and also from people on the left who bitterly opposed it. 
Now, you know, for the latter, I think it's just really, really sad when we have convinced ourselves that our voices don't matter, that we can't make any change by being out there. 
Let me tell you, a million people in the street, every day, constantly, loudly, for a decision that has not actually officially been made yet. 
I have to think back at things like, you know, the Vietnam War, the Arab Spring, the fall of the Iron Curtain. 
And that wasn't done by legislation. 
That was done by people power. 
And we have to start realizing that we have power as people and stop assuming that it's all lost. 
Yeah, it sucks. 
It's, you know, a terrible situation we're in right now. 
But we can't give up. 
We can't say, you know, I've seen people say things like, you know, we have the House, we have the Senate, we have the presidency, and we still can't do anything, so I'm not going to vote anymore. 
You know, you might as well just go out there and throw your support in for the right wing. 
You just might as well do that, because that is exactly the result you get when you give up like this. 
Look, you don't take steps all at once. 
You take many steps. 
And right now, we're taking very tiny steps, because it's a very tiny majority. 
You need to make a bigger majority if you want to take bigger steps. 
If you give up and say, I didn't get it all at once, guess what? 
You go backwards. 
And the people you're opposed to, they're the ones who make the decisions. 
So, you know, I don't think it's a choice. 
I don't think it's a choice between being in the streets and voting. 
No, you do both. 
And if you're in the streets and things don't change, well, they're not supposed to change immediately. 
It takes time. 
It takes a lot of journeys to the streets. 
It takes a lot of elections, too, sometimes. 
But we have to be not only patient, but forceful and driven. 
And I just fear that we're losing that and turning on each other. 
And that's totally the wrong way. 
And that's exactly what the other side wants. 
And I understand we have Alex on the phone now. 
Is that right, Alex? 
Yeah. 
Can you guys hear me now? 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
How about why do we do it this way to start with? 
We don't need to see you. 
I mean, you know, it's great to see you, but we don't need to see you. 
Well, I agree with that. 
But then again, you know, where would the fun be in working all these kinks out ahead of time? 
What are you doing on a train? 
I am heading back from D.C. 
Actually, at an event that my firm hosted entitled Hack the Capital, which was pretty cool. 
And we had hosted a bunch of members of Congress and their staff and talked about, you know, ICS, SCADA, critical infrastructure related issues. 
Great set of speakers, I think so. 
But that's neither here nor there. 
I think we're talking about this Roe v. 
Wade draft decision. 
And I want to bounce off some of the things that you had said, Emmanuel, with regard to whether or not we can still make a difference here. 
And I think that ultimately the intention behind the leak of this draft will determine whether or not we can make an impact with regard to the actual terms of this decision. 
Because this is such an unusual thing to happen from any court. 
I mean, I started out my legal career a long time ago in D.C. as a federal appellate law clerk. 
So at a court that was one level below the Supreme Court. 
I wasn't a law clerk at the U.S. Supreme Court. 
But I was a law clerk for the chief judge of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces. 
We were essentially the Supreme Court of the military. 
And the idea that any one of the law clerks for the judge, essentially you write the opinions for the judge, their orders, you prepare a bench memorandum, you confer with them about how they should decide a case. 
It's the closest you can ever come to being a federal judge without actually being a federal judge appointed by the president and confirmed by the Senate. 
So it's a pretty cool job to have right out of law school. 
They're very coveted. 
And you're right at the beginning of your career. 
So it would be really, really unusual for a law clerk at the Supreme Court to leak this type of document. 
Although it may very well have come from a clerk and possibly from a conservative clerk. 
Because the court likes to pride itself on being completely insulated from political vicissitudes and the political process. 
And that's one of the reasons why they have these life appointments. 
But leaking this document and then exerting a great amount of political pressure, either through protest or through Congress, if that does affect the court now, then that's some kind of acknowledgement that the court is not above these processes and is not insulated from it. 
And so the idea of leaking this document, leaking the draft, well after it was prepared in apparently February and well before it would be issued, which would be in June, could be to socialize the notion of Roe v. 
Wade being overruled in this country so that it doesn't come as a massive shock in June. 
And it allows the court now to essentially thumb its nose at all of us protesting about these rights because they're the ones with the ultimate say on the issue. 
Well, a conservative would do it, and I apologize for the background noise here. 
If anybody's on a cellar 2126 to New York, come say hello in the cafe car. 
I don't know why you'd advertise that, but maybe you can move away from the loudmouth that you're near because there's somebody there that doesn't have an off line. 
You're probably coming in better than I am, I would imagine. 
So why would a conservative clerk leak this? 
Precisely because now that the opinion, the contours of the opinion are in the public domain, if the court were to change course, it would seem like it would, that the court was then being influenced by outside forces. 
So by leaking it now in a form that is very palatable and very pleasing to conservatives could essentially lock in that language. 
It could mean that now there is not going to be any change because any further change would acknowledge that change can come from without as opposed to within the court. 
Interesting. 
Okay, I see what you're saying. 
So if, well, of course, it is a draft, so it's supposed to change. 
It's expected to change. 
But you're saying if it does change, the conservatives will latch upon that and say, aha, that's proof that the court has been politicized. 
Yeah, absolutely. 
And the court itself doesn't want to make any kind of action that would acknowledge the fact that they are responding to protests or responding to the calls of the population because they are supposed to be above that. 
That's the whole point of having Article III federal courts in the Constitution with judges that have lifetime appointments, is that they are not subject to the political vicissitude, to the whims of the people. 
They are looking after the long-term interests of the country and the people. 
But the other thing that I think has been missed a lot in mainstream media, and I think that we should talk a little bit about and come off the hook because it's important to our listeners and important to the hacker community, is that Roe v. 
Wade, of course, it's a case that's about abortion, but fundamentally, it is a case about privacy. 
Roe v. 
Wade was decided on the basis of the 14th Amendment affording a zone of privacy that the fundamental and personal rights that flowed down from the Constitution through the 14th Amendment to the states created the zone of privacy within which a woman had a right to choose, especially during the first trimester, whether or not she was going to carry a pregnancy, carry a child to birth or to terminated through an abortion. 
And so this is about a fundamental right to privacy, and destroying the fundamental right to privacy could have a real knock-on effect to the right of privacy itself. 
I see. 
So there could be an effect on all sorts of other things that we take for granted as well. 
This doesn't necessarily stop with the issue of abortion. 
I'll assume you're agreeing with me, as you've probably lost signal, maybe. 
It seems like a real originalist sort of thing where it's a lot of the language around it is that this isn't explicitly mentioned in the Constitution. 
Therefore, there's no guarantee of it enshrined at a base level of our system, of our constitutional documents and ideology. 
Well, we have an interesting story that was basically forwarded to us. 
A location data broker known as SafeGraph has stopped offering data related to Planned Parenthood and other similar family planning centers after Vice Motherboard found it was possible to buy information on how many people were visiting the facilities, where they came from, and where they went afterwards, something that experts saw as highly concerning in the wake of the Supreme Court's potential plan to repeal Roe v. 
Wade. 
SafeGraph's response last night shows that location data brokers do and can make decisions about what specific sets of data to make available for purchase. 
In light of potential federal changes in family planning access, we're removing patterns data for locations classified as NAICS code 621410, family planning centers. 
Wow, they have a code. 
From our self-serve shop and API to curtail any potential misuse of its data. 
That was from SafeGraph's CEO who wrote that in a blog post that was published earlier today. 
Now, SafeGraph sells access to several different types of data. 
They include information on where businesses or other points of interest are physically located in the world, aggregated transaction data on how much money people spend at them, and aggregated location data showing where groups of people who visited these points of interest came from on a census block level and what other businesses they went to afterwards. 
That last set of data is based on location information harvested from ordinary apps installed on people's smartphones. 
This is scary. 
This is really scary. 
It's good that they disabled this, but it's scary nonetheless that this is even possible. 
Do we have Alex back? 
Yeah. 
Alex, are you there? 
No, he's not there. 
Okay. 
Yeah, I'm here. 
It's very, very faint. 
Your audio coming into me is really low. 
Okay, well. 
It was a little bit hard to hear. 
It's hard to hear because of that guy who was broadcasting his entire life to the whole train. 
Oh, my God. 
Can you maybe move to another part of the car or a different car or between cars or on top of the train or something? 
I'm trying. 
I'm telling you. 
This guy is incredibly loud. 
You know what, Alex? 
Go into the... 
Yeah, well, you don't have to be next to him. 
Go to the bathroom. 
Those are great places to have conversations. 
That's not a bad idea. 
Yeah. 
And they're nice and big, too, on ESLers. 
Yeah, that's true. 
They are. 
Not necessarily wide, I think. 
In fact, you're... 
Yeah. 
Well, that's what I'm talking about. 
Oh, this restroom's out of service, if you can believe that. 
Okay. 
I'll be back. 
All right. 
Robin, you forwarded the story to us. 
So, any thoughts or comments on it? 
Well, it was interesting watching this develop, because just yesterday, there was the story that broke on Vice Motherboard about this company and the fact that they were making this information available to anyone who wanted to buy it and the extent of the information. 
And the next day, the same site published that this company was no longer going to be selling that data. 
And, of course, it's now a sensitive subject. 
Now it's in the public consciousness. 
But they were doing this for how long? 
They were doing this basically unregulated for how long? 
And I think it really spotlights a problem that a lot of people don't think often about, which is the fact that the phone in your pocket tracks everywhere you go by default. 
And you can't always control with whom this information is being shared. 
You can turn off location in your phone settings if you care to dig down that deep. 
Or you can install a fake GPS app, which can be a lot of fun to play with, that will claim you wherever you want to be. 
But at the end of the day, this information is being gathered, it's being logged, it's basically being made available to anyone who wants to use it for or against to the general public. 
And that's a big problem with the data environment as it stands. 
Yeah, I think the only way to really stop this is to just turn your phone off, right? 
Yeah, I mean, you could turn off GPS tracking in your phone, but it does cost you a lot of utility. 
A lot of people use their phones to find directions to places or find things nearby or whatever. 
And you do lose that when your phone isn't using the location functionality. 
Also, not all phones make it easy to disable that. 
It depends on what you're using, what phone and what make and model. 
But yeah, it's one of the many things that has kind of been accepted as a modern convenience, but which can come at a great cost. 
And in the case of this company, they were tracking people who went to a family planning facility, say, or a place where abortions were being made available, and then tracked where those people went after that. 
And obviously, many of these people would go home. 
And that information being made available to the wrong sort of people can be a threat, an actual physical threat to the safety of someone who had to use a service like that. 
So this should not stop here. 
The discussion should not stop because this company said, oh, we won't sell this anymore. 
This should only be the tip of the iceberg in really reexamining the operations that deal in this information, but also the fact of the software that gathers this information by default. 
This could be an app on your phone that does something completely unrelated to location that decides it wants to track your location. 
There have been flashlight apps that track your location and send it to who knows what because the app makers make money selling that data. 
And that data gets sold on and sold on and gets gathered by firms like this who sell it to anyone. 
Now, you say firms like this. 
This isn't the only firm that does this, right? 
There could be - this one turned it off. 
This one stopped collecting that data or sharing that data. 
But how many others are out there? 
I couldn't even begin to speculate, but it is a big business. 
It is just part of the complete - the huge business there is. 
There are tons of money to be made in metadata, in information about individual people. 
That's where you go, what you buy, what you like, what you talk about. 
And all of this is being gathered, and all of this can be made available to somebody who just has the money for it. 
And in cases like this, it is not only an invasion of privacy. 
It is a real threat. 
And it's not just happening in this sort of way because we had this motherboard article open on the screen in front of us. 
So I clicked over on another link about the CDC buying data to make sure people were locking down effectively for COVID. 
The CDC buying tons of data to track specifically monitoring the effectiveness of policy in the Navajo Nation because they could, because it was there. 
And I will say that John Oliver did a thing on metadata harvesting and the kinds of things you can do with it a couple weeks ago on The Daily Show - not The Daily Show, excuse me - last week tonight. 
It was fantastic. 
It was insightful. 
And I think it was - it is probably going to help reach a lot of people who might not understand this sort of situation otherwise. 
I think it has a lot to do with the workaround, the sort of ad-fueled innovation life cycles we've lived through with many companies offering free services but finding that this is a way to make money without charging people. 
And the other benefit is a lot of people and the other benefit is a lot of the pressures on intelligence and, you know, surveillance and privacy has forced greater scrutiny to the government. 
And they then in turn, much like with bug bounties, created this whole ecosystem of private entities that are already being used in the ad networks. 
They're already there, so they're gathering information. 
So why not have government and other entities that are ostensibly barred in officially collecting and gathering and organizing in some regards? 
Not all regards, though, of course. 
But rather they find there's plenty in the private marketplace they can buy just as easily as someone who is building an app around this kind of data or ad network. 
But the other thing is this isn't new. 
And I remember, and this also relates back to a bunch of the pregnancy stuff that we've been talking about, because there are people, there was an article I remember reading this, Kyle, you pinged it in my mind, 10 years ago. 
And the headline was how Target knew a girl was pregnant before her dad did because she used a credit card to buy a pregnancy test. 
And they were like, oh, so they started sending coupons for baby formula to this house. 
And there are stories of women who have, people who have been pregnant and then who weren't pregnant anymore but had been pregnant and were getting stuff about, hey, your kid must be old enough to start kindergarten. 
Here are ads for backpacks. 
And this can become insidious. 
And it's not just about privacy, but it can also become about, like, the mental health of people and the tracking that happens and the ways that we use the data and what it means to be not just a data point but a person and where the two melt, I suppose. 
And that's obviously something that we deal with a lot here is where the line is. 
Yeah, I think it's important really to always think like a hacker in all these scenarios with regards to being tracked by advertisements like Gil just mentioned. 
You don't always have to be you online. 
You don't always have to have your real name. 
You don't have to have your real address. 
I know it can be a hassle sometimes keeping track, but it can also be fun. 
And you can confuse these systems that are there to track you, and you can learn something about it as well. 
It's easy when you do this on a regular basis, and you don't become as much of a victim. 
Yeah, I like to have a couple of good fake birthdays. 
Yeah, exactly. 
I know other people that do too. 
It's great. 
Yeah, why should Facebook be the arbiter of all that? 
You know what? 
I care so much about them, I'm not going to say what they are. 
But I know what they are, and I think it's fun. 
Yeah, absolutely. 
And just basically, any way that you attract, for instance, we were talking about the cell phones, how you want to use GPS if you have navigation, if you want to get somewhere, obviously you need the GPS to be on. 
Well, maybe somebody could write a utility where basically if you request that particular application, it automatically turns on GPS, and then when you arrive at your destination, it turns it off. 
So that you don't have to always be the one to worry about enabling it and disabling it, figuring out how to enable it or disable it in the first place on your phone. 
If these can be things that are easy to use and desirable, I think we'll be able to strike a blow for defending our privacy to an extent. 
And as far as thinking like a hacker, with this particular story that we're focusing on right now, there are so many ways to do that, to thwart the system, to figure out ways to outsmart it. 
I know that in many cases, abortion pills are what people use rather than actually having abortions. 
So, you know, I was wondering, so are they going to make sending abortion pills to somebody who wants an abortion, that's a crime? 
Okay, well, then what if you send an abortion pill to somebody who isn't even pregnant? 
Is that a crime? 
What if everybody was given abortion pills in advance so you just have them? 
That way, everyone has what they need. 
And, you know, it's a silly scenario, but you have to think differently and outsmart the system because it's stupid legislation, it's backwards thinking, and we're better than this. 
Go ahead, Rob. 
And you mentioned why can't this be easy to do, to just, you know, set it up in some way that protects you by default. 
And the answer to that is because it is incentivized on behalf of the people who make their money this way. 
It is - they have an incentive to make it difficult for you. 
All of us know when, say, news articles started giving you the cookie warning screens before you read that, say, you know, this site uses cookies for this, that, and the other, and you can accept all by clicking one button. 
But if you want to make any sort of other decision, you have to click through a menu, click through a bunch of switches, click through something else, and then you can read your damn news article. 
And it is made so difficult to assert your rights, basically, that they're expecting people to just leave it, let it go, and you give up that much more of your privacy. 
And that's what this is all about. 
It's about privacy. 
Alex had mentioned, and I think Gila as well, that this Supreme Court issue, this Roe versus Wade issue, is about privacy. 
And you had mentioned this too, Emmanuel. 
And it will not stop at Roe versus Wade. 
The medical privacy issue affects trans people. 
It affects all sorts of people who need certain protections that will not be given to them, that can then be denied them under the law. 
And this is the beginning of a very scary, very slippery slope. 
Well, fortunately, there's not very much in the way of anti-trans or anti-gay legislation, right? 
Right. 
I haven't read a newspaper in a few months. 
Oh, Lord, what are we facing? 
Do we have Alex? 
Is Alex on the phone or is he on Skype? 
He's all over. 
Alex has sent a chat message that says he's out of the tunnel the train was going through. 
So if you want to ring him again, you can get him back. 
So he's not connected. 
Okay. 
You know, we should have a light. 
We should have a light that lights up when we pick up the phone. 
So, Kyle, are you able to reconnect to him? 
Well, you're next to the phone. 
It's logical. 
All right. 
Soon we'll be hearing from Alex again. 
This train ride has been so disruptive. 
Alex, are you there? 
No, he's not there. 
Okay. 
I'm going to turn that off and hopefully, Kyle, you can connect to him and actually get him in person. 
Yeah, yeah. 
I'm working really hard on it. 
Yeah. 
He's saying that sarcastically. 
All right. 
So as far as other stories going on, the other major story that we have not been on the air for is Twitter. 
What's going on with Elon Musk taking over Twitter? 
Any thoughts from you guys? 
I don't expect this to suddenly make Twitter as much fun again as it once was, but I know it's certainly making certain corners of it much more active, and that's maybe not such a great thing. 
I do note that it seems to be fueling a wave of renewed interest in Mastodon, the free, decentralized, open-source, community-owned and operated sort of Twitter clone, which you can get more information about at joinmastodon.org. 
And, yeah, there have been people that I've known for a long time on Twitter who have sort of poked their nose into Mastodon and started looking around recently, looking for that social network experience, perhaps with a little less muskiness. 
I was hoping you guys could talk a little longer while we're trying to connect to Alex. 
We certainly could. 
Yeah, the thing about this is it is another case of somebody with a whole lot of money using that money to centralize power over a huge chunk of public discourse. 
You know, billionaires own the major news outlets. 
They own the major television outlets. 
They own the major radio outlets, and they own the major social media outlets online. 
You have Facebook. 
You have Instagram. 
You have Twitter. 
And, you know, I don't personally find Elon Musk somebody who is particularly charming or trustworthy or, you know, even at all confidence inspiring in how he would run something like Twitter. 
So I don't know how much longer I'll be tweeting, but I know I'll probably stick around on Mastodon for a good long while because you can't buy it. 
But, Rob, why is it necessary that you like the person that owns it? 
Because at the end of the day, when you use something, you're making them money. 
You are legitimizing their hold on it. 
And I don't know how much more of my crap posting and stupid jokes that I like Twitter for need to be increasing shareholder value for somebody who is actively making things worse. 
Yeah, well, I'm not sure how much better it was doing before, you know. 
And, you know, I think if I look at everything that I use and apply that scrutiny to it, I won't be using a whole lot because just about every major company out there is going to be run by people I detest. 
The thing is, can I get something that I want out of it? 
Will I be prevented from doing what I want to do? 
I don't really care. 
I don't really care who is running it or how they run it as long as they're not doing really terrible, heinous things. 
But I don't really expect them to be the kind of person I'd want to hang out with at any time. 
Emmanuel, the one other thing that seems to be thrown around here about this that I'm wondering about your feelings on is there seems to be scuttlebutt that he wants to bring the banned former president back onto the platform. 
Yeah, that would be an issue for me. 
Definitely would be an issue. 
It's got nothing to do with censorship. 
It's got to do with hate speech, disruption, you know, white supremacy, all that nonsense that apparently Twitter would then be embracing. 
That, to me, would be something that would be a problem, a huge problem. 
But, you know, just his personality or the things that he says, that's not enough there. 
But doing something that would completely turn Twitter into a cesspool again, yeah, that to me would be - it's time to look for something else. 
It's time to look for a replacement. 
Gila, go ahead. 
Is it not? 
I mean, so if Elon Musk takes over Twitter, are they going to stop enforcing the terms of service? 
They're not really well enforced now, honestly. 
And whether he reinstates the former guy or not, there are a lot of usage cases where people report violations of the terms of service and are told, no, that's not really a violation of the terms of service. 
And just because you can have a username that calls for genocide or for violence against a group of people or genders or sexual identities or whatever it may be. 
So, okay, they're not enforcing the terms of service. 
They won't enforce the terms of service. 
I fail to see - I'm not thrilled, but I don't know if it's going to get worse necessarily. 
It's not great to begin with. 
There's also something that I've really been missing about the social media experience in general. 
And, like, I love online social media. 
I've been using it since there's been such a thing, basically. 
I was on Usenet. 
I was on, you know, email lists. 
I was on LiveJournal. 
I was on MySpace, you know. 
And there was always this sense from the people - from the core crowd of people who enjoyed these things and gathered on them that you were kind of always looking for the next thing. 
Like, okay, where are we going from this one when this one starts to suck? 
And there would always be that moment when the service you're using, like, loses touch with its users or changes the TOS or does some other boneheaded move that has the users going, okay, time to go somewhere else. 
Where are we all going next? 
And we would hop sort of from service to service. 
There would always be something new that popped up that looked interesting. 
And some things would fail. 
Some things would catch on. 
And you would go from place to place to place. 
And then Facebook came along. 
And Twitter came along. 
And they stayed. 
And people, like, stopped moving. 
And it became sort of a general public thing and sort of all-pervasive, rich, powerful thing. 
And I think there's a lot that's been lost about that sort of spirit of just we're going to search for more because we know that we can get more from this experience than this one centralized service is giving us. 
And I wonder if it's time that that sort of attitude came back about social media, that it didn't have to be a one thing that you were on forever. 
I think maybe the problem is social media itself is unsustainable. 
You can't get everybody together. 
You can't share everything. 
You can't just display your personal life and expect it to be okay with the rest of the world. 
And they're going to respect your privacy and your thoughts and opinions and things like that. 
I think there's something inherently flawed in just doing that in the first place. 
And that's kind of why I've shied away from Facebook and these sites where everybody kind of displays everything they're doing. 
First of all, I'm not interested. 
And I'm not interested in sharing that information in the first place. 
And I think it's a tremendous security issue for so many people that they don't realize. 
I mean, you know, it used to be that private eyes and detectives would have to investigate people. 
Now, you're doing it to yourself. 
You're basically giving all the evidence of where you live and where you go to school and where you work and where you've been. 
You're doing all their work for them. 
It's really, you know, kind of pathetic. 
I think, you know, there's still plenty of ways that people can communicate and express their opinions. 
But again, going back to what I was saying before, does it have to be you? 
Does it have to be your specific name, your specific address? 
Can you be somebody else? 
Like in the old BBS days, nobody cared who you really were. 
And that's what bothers me about what I hear Elon Musk saying. 
It's like there's not going to be any more anonymity. 
I think anonymity is the key to being able to express yourself safely and securely if everything is, you know, attached to a real person. 
First of all, it doesn't make the dialogue any more intelligent. 
You know, proof of that, look at newspapers that require you to be a real user or Facebook that requires a real name. 
And you see plenty of people proudly using their real names and their real towns and saying the worst things possible. 
You know, they've been weaponized. 
They're not afraid anymore to express those thoughts. 
So I don't think anonymity is the issue at all. 
I think that is, in fact, possibly the salvation for, you know, communications in the first place. 
A big thing I think had an impact on some of those platforms staying is the previous ones that Rob was talking about were based on web pages and desktop computing. 
A lot of these newer platforms started going with people everywhere because the mode that you're publishing things was in your pocket. 
It's in mobile form, and that completely changed the way people were using social media, and it stuck in ways that when you're sitting at a machine typing paragraphs on your web blog and carefully curating images, it just wholly changed when people are out having fun with their media generator within reach and at their fingertips the whole time. 
You know, sharing their actual life, and I think we did romanticize that stuff way too much, way too much, to a point where we have generations of people who think it's just dope to go and commit crimes while recording yourself, and no one will care. 
Like, there are so many domestic violence and harassment and divorces and stuff. 
I mean, SMS is an admissible form of evidence these days, and people just think, like, you know, if I'm harassing someone or I'm stalking or if I'm out there, you know, generating hateful visual or other kinds of media and weaponizing it and weaponizing it and using it on people in really hurtful and damaging ways that no one's going to pay attention and it's just going to slide because of free speech or something. 
That is just so completely wrong. 
I'm not trying to say that, you know, people should get away with more and be more careful in their hatred. 
I'm just saying that there's this feeling, this sense of permission or just that, you know, whatever they do in their life is validated by their followers, so somehow society has to accept that behavior no matter how hateful. 
And then, of course, quickly throwing up some banner of speech and then calling it good in such the way that Mr. 
Musk's absolutist attitude sees it totally as, you know, society's fault for not saying more over the disgusting stuff. 
Well, I got news for you. 
There's a lot more of that ugly stuff out there, and it's not just bots. 
Yeah, exactly. 
That was my point. 
You put all the lovely, happy, or charged rebuttals and counterpoise, you're just going to get more of that hate, maybe tenfold. 
I mean, it is, I think, really misguided to convince yourself of that just because you have, well, you think you're an expert at everything and, you know, you don't even know what your lane is. 
But somehow, yeah, that is, you're going to save us all. 
It's just very naive because, you know, it's easy to say, oh, let's just let everybody speak and it'll work itself out. 
No, it's not that simple. 
It really is not that simple. 
And, you know, I've seen this attitude from people that really don't know what they're talking about, and to see it with somebody this powerful, oh, boy, it's going to be an interesting ride. 
You know, we've kind of given up on Alex because we tried reaching him. 
He wasn't picking up his phone, and I don't know if he's... 
Hello, can you hear me now? 
I hear something, but are you going to be there longer than ten seconds? 
I think he's in the bag. 
Well, let's hope. 
Let's hope. 
All right. 
I'm in a better spot. 
Doesn't Acela have Wi-Fi? 
I thought that was one of the selling points. 
Well, it's not very consistent either, but... 
Well, I'm glad you're here now because... 
You know, I wanted to bounce this off of you because this is a really important story that we saw in the two weeks that we weren't on. 
But basically, you were talking about Virgil Griffith, who was sentenced to five years in prison for going to North Korea and going to a cryptocurrency conference, et cetera, et cetera. 
Well, now, you know, it's gotten bigger. 
Yeah, it's gotten bigger in the last two weeks. 
The United States has issued an Interpol Red Notice against someone named Chris Ems for allegedly violating U.S. sanctions against North Korea. 
He's currently being held in Saudi Arabia. 
He's fighting U.S. extradition. 
Here's the thing. 
Chris Ems is not a U.S. citizen. 
He's from Reigate in Surrey in England. 
And basically, the United States has accused him of violating the International Emergency Economic Powers Act despite not being a, quote-unquote, U.S. person and thus not subject to the legislation. 
Yeah, this is crazy. 
This is insane. 
This shows you that once our government gets a taste of what it can pull off, and I'm thinking of Julian Assange as a good example of this, there's no stopping them. 
No stopping them at all. 
So, basically, he's a blockchain expert, which makes him a threat right away. 
He's been a prominent speaker on regulatory issues and a broker and consultant for companies with blockchain and Web3. 
He went on to open the first ever kosher food distribution company in the Gulf, significantly investing in the region, giving him the opportunity to play a crucial role in the Abraham Accords. 
And that's why he was in that particular part of the world. 
He also attended the cryptocurrency conference in North Korea, along with Virgil Griffith, who was a U.S. citizen, and others that he had not met until the first day of the conference. 
On the day of arrival, all attendees had their belongings rigorously searched. 
And, basically, I went through all of that. 
But, I don't know, this whole thing is really crazy. 
He spoke at the conference. 
He covered information that can be found freely on the Internet, which North Koreans have access to. 
We were even shown libraries where this information could be accessed, he recalls. 
He provided no information that could have helped the government evade U.S. sanctions against them, and no information that was secret nor unavailable on Google. 
But the important thing is, he's not even a U.S. citizen. 
He's allowed to go to North Korea. 
He's a British citizen. 
He's not subject to these rules. 
How, and I hope we still have Alex, how does the United States get away with this? 
Right. 
I'm here. 
Hopefully, you guys can hear me. 
Can you hear me all right? 
Yes, we can. 
Talk quickly. 
Okay. 
Coincidentally, by the time, Kyle, when you were trying to call me before, I picked up the wrong line. 
Another number was calling. 
It wound up being Virgil. 
So, Virgil, coincidentally, called me and wanted me to relay to everybody that he says hello, he's doing well, and he encourages people to read about the crypto wars in the 90s. 
He thinks there is an analog to what's happening today. 
Wow. 
Yeah, that's, it comes from Virgil, and that's why I didn't call me before, Kyle, because I picked up, and Virgil was talking about it. 
Okay. 
Talk quickly, Alex, because we're running out of time. 
With respect to these two new indictments, yeah, with respect to these two new indictments, I mean, I don't want to speak too much about it. 
I'll go into how they can be part of the crime that they alleged involved Virgil, right, that there was essentially a conspiracy to violate the IEPA statute, the International Emergency Economic Power Act, by which North Korea was sanctioned, and that those two were part of that conspiracy. 
Obviously, Christopher Enzo, the other person that was also indicted, was a Spanish national by the name of Cal de Benos, who was also the subject of a BBC documentary called The Mole, which is quite an interesting documentary about the Korean friendship association with Cal de Benos. 
I'm sure our listeners will find it fascinating to watch that, because it's all part of the same nexus of facts, but there aren't many issues, I think, as you rightly identify about, all about, you know, whether or not those laws would apply to foreign nationals and whether they had notice of it. 
So, that will undoubtedly be litigated after the extradition request is addressed in the courts in Saudi Arabia and potentially Spain as well. 
So, this is definitely something that's going to unwind over the next few weeks and months, and we are going to be watching it with a very close eye. 
Okay, and hopefully, maybe we can talk about this a little bit more on Overtime, which is coming up at 8 o'clock on Channel 2600 on YouTube. 
Follow the link on the 2600.com page, and you can also write to us, OTH at 2600.com. 
And please, please, support WBAI. 
Give to WBAI.org is the website, or call 212-209-2950. 
Pledge whatever you can afford to keep the station going. 
And, again, another reminder, we have the EFF fundraiser going until Friday. 
For anyone who buys a ticket to Hope, Hackers on Planet Earth, please send in your talk submissions and workshop submissions. 
We'll see you next week. 
Good night. 


And hello everybody on YouTube we have made it to off-the-hook overtime and I think everybody else has made it as well Kyle. 
I see you over there on the other side of the room allegedly. 
Yeah I see Gila Icy Rob, I'm here too. 
I even see Alex Alex. 
Are you actually there? 
Oh My god you know You're basically pointing out everything that's wrong with Amtrak They say they have Wi-Fi they don't have well, I don't know what this is it's not Wi-Fi You can hear a little bit of train noise there, but couldn't hear him. 
I know that he is Frantically trying to get some some more power on his device so Amtrak and the entirety of the engineering staff on that train is Working desperately to make sure that he has enough power to get through they have they have power outlets I know they have those they might even stop the train and like get power from some overhead wires or something I'll stop to kick him off Alex. 
I see you again. 
Can you hear us? 
We hear noise We hear noise, but it's not you we're hearing I There's something with your setup that is just not right. 
I don't think your microphone is on we can hear the train But we can't hear you Thank you, maybe in dark territory or something Oh, but we we can't remember on YouTube We see him and we we can hear his voice very far in the distance But we it's it's not on Rob's confirmed. 
We're on YouTube. 
Yes. 
I heard that's that's wonderful. 
Thank you Rob. 
Yeah You're very welcome Alex, we can't keep doing this all night long So either figure it out or we'll have to do this next week. 
Hopefully not on Amtrak though Yeah, okay he's now he's frozen our phone number go ahead Kyle I was just gonna say Alex tribe voice only with I can't we connect on the telephone I don't understand why we can't connect on a damn phone. 
We're gonna take calls Yeah, but we can at least say goodbye to him on the before somebody's calls in we could do that Right No, theoretically, okay. 
So can we just call him and then have a finishing conversation with him and Then we'll be done. 
Yeah, but you know, it's not gonna you know, what fun. 
Let's just try it. 
I will reserve my opinion. 
Yeah We can express your opinion on off the hook overtime feedback that follows this show You know Emanuel and all the time I've been working with you on this program You know you have said so many wonderful things about trains and about Amtrak and now I I don't I don't know if I'm convinced Anymore. 
Well, no the trains the trains are fine and phones are fine It's just when you put them together. 
That's gonna be a problem. 
Now Alex. 
Do we have you? 
Oh For God's sake Alex we can hear the train we can't hear you again on the phone was wrong I think he's having problems with his vocal cords I think there's some interference But you hear you hear the sound don't you hear the train now that we not hear him. 
Well, it's more static or Any better? 
Yes. 
How did you just do I? 
Stopped using the damn Bluetooth Headset that I was used. 
Why were you doing that? 
Yes, that was obviously the problem Well must have been but it usually works perfectly fine. 
I think the problem was Was I don't know what the hell's going you're in a crowded train there could be other people using the same frequent You know, there could be interference. 
There could be mechanical things with the train that are interfering. 
It could be a lot of stuff You sound so good now well, the thing is, you know, I couldn't really you I couldn't I could not use headphones before because We were on Skype so that's very difficult to do otherwise you have to have the You know the speaker on Alex Alex, why did we need to be on Skype? 
The phone is fine for radio. 
The phone is perfect Well, and there's the call the audio only mode on Skype to that was my thought but I just was going with Whatever people were requesting me to do. 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
Okay. 
Yeah, we're here now though and YouTube's there while we have you Alex. 
Did you have any any closing thoughts on the last story we were talking about? 
You know, I don't remember what what it was I've been so clustered dealing with this goddamn Train issue and going through tunnels and getting disconnected. 
Oh, oh, we were talking about the The Yes, yeah, yeah No, I mean, I don't want to speak too much about it either because you know There's still be could be some some crossover there with with Virgil's case but We don't have to talk about the case, but how about just this reach that the United States seems to have Where somebody who's not even a citizen can be extradited to this country that they have not been to because Our country says they violated one of our rules But and how does how you know, if if we say something critical of Russia, how do we not get extradited over there? 
It's a face trial. 
It sounds like the same thing Yeah, I mean certainly I mean and if you think about you know, what's going on with Julian Assange, it's it's Very similar, right? 
I mean everything that he was doing was without the United States Yet, you know, they were claiming that he helped somebody namely Chelsea Manning in the United States. 
Try to break the law try to access Your computer systems without authorization, you know, or offered that assistance. 
I think in the form of a rainbow table Or whatever it was I haven't read the indictment in quite a while, but you know it it is certainly problematic when you think about the issue of fundamental fairness and And to process requiring something like that's okay something Who Individuals about what the law is. 
I mean, how do we expect? 
people in Spain and the UK to know what the law is the United States and And and to Be guide and to guide their actions by it as well. 
It also seems like you know, they're there's definitely notice issues here And I think that if the extradition were to occur These indictments certainly would be subject to attack And I would I really would be interested in seeing how this plays out because it does seem that you know That that they're trying to use Virgil really as the nexus to the United States here Interesting so I guess my next question then is what is it that prevents us from falling victim to this through another country Well, you know it it doesn't right I mean there there really is nothing I mean if you You can be indicted in another country for doing something else Alex it's whatever you did you went back at the Bluetooth mode or something? 
We've lost your your voice Wow, this is an incredible confluence of technology and how it doesn't work I don't know if you can hear me. 
But if you can't hear me Alex, we can't hear you because it reverted back to what was before All right We're gonna have to put an end to this. 
It's too much so let's disconnect and we'll give out our phone number eight zero two three two one four two two five and we can talk to people who have working phones and Can give us their opinions or feedback of one sort or another You know two three two one hack is our telephone number here on overtime for a little while and Yeah, any any thoughts from you guys? 
Well, I I think we need to chip in and buy Alex a better Bluetooth headset but Beyond that, you know, it's uh, it's interesting. 
We've spoken a lot about Virgil's case and other cases being used as sort of scapegoats as you know people in our community so often find themselves in these cases where they get completely irrational punishments for minor transgressions and That's that's pretty sad and I don't I don't see that. 
I don't see that situation improving anytime soon I'm not sure where we need to get out and protest to make that all better. 
But I'm open to ideas All right again our phone number eight oh two three two one four two two five I think the ringers on Okay, we might have hung up on you if we did was sorry, there we go because we care so much Yeah, we do care so much. 
We care too much. 
I think Go ahead. 
You're on off the hook overtime Hey greetings, it's Kirby. 
Yes for a total go. 
Hey, how you doing? 
Pretty good up there in Ontario, right? 
That's it, all right, I have the the truckers gone Well, the truckers are yeah, pretty much. 
Okay, there's been some kind of raucous protests over the last Couple of weekends, but I don't really don't know what's going on and I've avoided the scene I think that was rolling thunder right the motorcycle people. 
Correct? 
Yeah, correct. 
Always something that was a roller coaster Wow, so what's new with you up there? 
Well, I guess Springs come in a spring election here we have our premier who's guided us through the Pandemic there be a re-election Doug Ford Doug Ford it is He has little competition from the other parties I'll tell you that much and he's given out money and stuff in the last couple of months Okay, just giving out really He canceled he canceled a license plate and fee for us in Ontario, so we don't have to pay 125 bucks a year And he gave back like two years worth of the previous license fee She really got a check for like 240 bucks about a month ago And now let me just ask you a couple other questions about his positions does he support abortion rights and does he support health care for all He does for both Yes, yes, he does and this is a conservative He actually just made a statement about abortion rights and he said that he believes in access for all this This is as right-wing as it gets pretty much up in Canada and yet The people there support abortion rights and health care. 
Yeah, it's it's all a matter of perspective, I guess well, but I I guess you understand that if it's a there's a different Tinge to it. 
It's it's conservative, it's right-wing there's a lot of the same concepts are there but I mean I guess maybe the motivations behind it are different and that's why the reality is different or You know, maybe here there's just less of an organized force that's trying to drive the political system and more of a person personal I don't know how to explain it. 
But you know, it's it's more controlled by the people But but do you have a faction of people who are more like our right wing that? 
Basically, certainly. 
So where do they fit in the political spectrum? 
So, I mean the right-wing party there was a party in the federal level that was formed I believe it's called the People's Party and they were like the extreme right-wing type of thing that as far as it goes and They didn't even win a seat or anything along those lines, but they did receive, you know You you can say they received I forget how many votes but you know a substantial number of votes hundreds of thousands or whatnot But they didn't get any No, they didn't get any power. 
I mean in Canada It's pretty much the left and the right moving between center and back trying to appeal to you know It's such a small scale and some of the writings and stuff that it's really a region by region thing very targeted very Organized the the parties. 
There's three main parties here. 
Two of them are really a competition The medium left is the NDP party. 
The New Democratic Party is not really much of a force Wow Well, yeah, it still sounds it sounds so much better. 
It sounds so much more sane It's not perfect and it's it's it's not all great I mean, he's crazy in his own way not because he's a right-wing mostly because he's a politician Yeah, but all of you Doug Ford, you know He was as right as it gets as right wing as it seems to get in Canada at least from our perspective and yet hearing Positions his positions would be welcomed here by people on the left. 
It's just wow, what a difference Yeah, definitely. 
Definitely. 
It is a real it's a real middle-of-the-road type thing. 
It's not so extreme and also, you know The makeup the religious makeup everything in Canada is kind of on a smaller scale and a little bit less Extreme I'd say. 
Mm-hmm People just kind of go about their business here. 
It doesn't seem to be so Inflammatory and Us against them type of this is something you might be interested in I Kyle was doing a bit of research on this place. 
We went to a couple years ago called Shefferville up in Quebec it turns out they have they have infrastructure now that is Basically better than anything around Yeah, it's really fascinating what's going on up in Shefferville a place that we visited and We found so really so incredibly interesting. 
Basically, we were coming there in the fall and winter and they had just had a summer of Running fiber optics along the very train ride We were talking about and marveling about and documenting in our travel our short trip up there fast forward They've now rolled out. 
I've offered the service even with All the distancing and crazy stuff going on with health we were just first hearing about Kovat emerging when we were with With some of the residents of that community traveling back home for back home for them and for us to this really unique place so the name of their provider is Sitchin and it is a really cool partnership for three different Communities Shefferville Matamakos and Kawa Kawa chickum chicka muck Pretty good, I butchered that you did better than anyone within a hundred miles could have done. 
My point is it's It's really exciting for them. 
And I I looked at some of the prices for broadband and stuff and it's it's not like cheap cheap What we would consider affordable, but if you imagine a place that has nothing that has incredibly expensive Satellite They are pretty competitive if you're a household if you're sharing, you know with a couple neighbors You can go in on something like this and it's not bad and functional they're rolling out They've just out of huge demand got IP TV. 
They're gonna be adding 4g Cellular service and stuff which as travelers is really important to us. 
That's probably the most you know Common thing we would interface with their new network but it struck me that a lot of these rural places are being encouraged to take on like Starlink and all these kind of new but Less let's face it. 
They they aren't really terrestrial their outer space and Resilient in some ways but maybe less resilient in other ways perhaps there's room for all of them, but it struck me that had Had Starlink been really popular this this project may never have broken ground and They just kept going as they did and you know People will get satellite and other other stuff once they're there, but they have this backbone in the ground Which is incredible and they're building businesses on top of it co-location and all kinds of services and it's just amazing to Imagine a place that hadn't had something and that is so far-flung and now This Infrastructure is just basically transforming the community the the ability to to access the rest of the world tell their stories And and make calls with IP phones and stuff. 
It's just it's pretty cool I guess they went from 300 initial subscribers now, they're up to like 500 so it's just it's kind of cool that this thing didn't exist while we were traveling and it's since Turned into this this whole new Internet service we were there in January of 2020. 
Have you heard of Shefferville Kirby? 
I Have from the other show. 
Okay. 
Yeah for those who don't know it's it's the northern part of Quebec You actually take a train through Labrador and it's a train that's that's run by the native community. 
It was bought from From the Canadian Rail for I think a dollar and they they operate it now It's really the only way to get to Shefferville because it's it's it's pretty remote I'll just add like for example. 
Mm-hmm We now we're the ones without the technology Because we demonstrated as you recall on that train ride. 
There was a hockey team and they had Game consoles. 
It was a peewee hockey team. 
Let's not get excited. 
They were hardcore and They would play these games. 
Well now they can probably play those games online. 
We could probably Play hockey against them online and get our butts kicked. 
Yeah, I couldn't I could not I Would say our problem is nobody around here could get PlayStation. 
So It was pretty funny or you know, any console or something? 
I I was kind of laughing to myself about that but at the time it was like wow, they're really into this and now they've So many other opportunities with at least being connected and we can I don't know maybe there will be more businesses Maybe there'll be more Like storytelling or radio stations. 
I'm thinking streaming radio. 
Yeah, I'd be great I was really wondering I was even gonna see you know, what other kinds of media maybe there's been more I want to go back up there because you know when we went up there on January 2020 We could only stay overnight and go back the next morning because otherwise we'd have to stay three days because that's how often the train Runs next time I'll stay to three days. 
I want to see what it's what it's really like there and spend some time yeah, we didn't really get to even go to like a cafe and and really scope out different places and just try to you know, Have a regular day there exploring but having been up there. 
It just it's something we're often thinking of when we hear from you We're we're so excited because we're like man, you know I really want to go back up to to the north a little bit and explore or say hi to people and stuff and just Be on the on the road again. 
Yeah, so we're looking forward to plans and certainly thinking of you up there Well, that's cool. 
Definitely. 
You're all you guys are always welcome The whole squad. 
Yeah, cool. 
We just to bring it back at technology-wise in terms of what you're talking about and with what we're talking about with Doug Ford is one thing I found out in in Ontario and Probably similar in the States is the province determines the growth of the Building and the density of the building that's going to come and then they create this document and they say, okay This has to be we have to develop this like this. 
We have to have this many people living over here by this year We have to have this and then it's up to the cities and the municipalities to implement What the province tells them they have to do Wow Yeah, it was it was actually very surprising to me, uh-huh and that's how it is so throughout Canada um, at least Ontario, I would assume that the other provinces have a similar type of relationship with that I guess the it would be the Development board or Ontario forget what it's called but um, I think that has a lot to do with the what you're talking about with the fiber and stuff because You know within two or three hours of Toronto alone let's just say, you know, it's it's pretty much maxed out and Ontario has to grow and things are warming up and the north is cold and it's getting warmer and you know The natural progression is to drive all that growth northward And go back in like Shefferville and all those places. 
I mean that really is Gonna be heavily developed in the future technology wise Infrastructure and people because you know, the projections for population Ontario are huge Absolutely Even defense in the Arctic like way up in alert On the edge of that. 
I mean that is a huge priority for all the countries In North America and in this part of the world as well With shipping changing and those those transit routes opening up All the exploration stuff that's going on as far as natural resources. 
It's Different kind of rodeo and of course, it's all melting too. 
So Yes, but they're increasing the train services up to Tim Timmons and moose to me these kind of places and normally, you'd have to go up and fly in for an hour on like a Tiny little plane everything is super expensive Churchill's, you know, it's it it's really amazing really amazing There's such a big country to grow into I heard there were new there's a new train service up in Northern, Ontario. 
Is that right? 
Or some in regards to somewhere in Ontario I heard there they were starting up train service that hadn't been running Yeah, that's the one I'm talking about. 
Okay Yeah, so basically up between right now you drive up north you go to Timmons mm-hmm and Between Timmons, you can take a train or a plane from there or there was a train to Cochran and then you take a plane from there and so basically they're talking about making a direct link between Moose and II a moose factory and and Timmons and Cochran so that Moose and II a moose factory and and Timmons and Cochran so that it would it would just open it up now You can't even drive a car. 
Is that no road to get there? 
Wow, is that part of via rail or go or something? 
That I'm not sure. 
Okay, and and Kyle you mentioned Churchill, which of course is the other native community I think in Manitoba that has a rail line. 
That's really the only way you can get there other than plane Yeah, it came to mind just in the conversation. 
It sounds it's another place you want to explore Had not have not been on it. 
Of course, it's a real serious exposed kind of out there trip but that line has been repaired and I know it's in service and it is also native owned and just an interesting north-south route that is part of what you're talking about just the needs and expansion of The country in general, but just and or naturally as you said and sort of a migration migratory way But just just yeah having alternates then flying which is incredibly costly in many in all regards and and Not exactly accessible to very many people at all So just I just did a quick look here and on April 10th 2020 the Ontario government of Doug Ford has announced they're investing 75 million To bring passenger rail service back to northeastern, Ontario Wow See, that's another thing. 
There are right-wing people. 
They hate trains for some reason I think I just don't like everything that I like. 
I think that's what it is It's personal train. 
Mm-hmm. 
That's good. 
They drive cars. 
No, I mean, Wisconsin is a perfect example They they had all these initiatives to have commuter rail and the Republican government Vetoed every single one of them and they just want people in their cars. 
They don't want anyone riding trains It's nuts and to be fair like I mean, you know, I'm I have a little fun stuff and Doug Ford's a bit of a buffoon, but we have to remember that Years ago his brother and with his support, you know derailed a Project to build a light rail transit that was completely paid for by the province Because they claimed that everybody wanted a subway instead Wow and so this subway ended up becoming this like political thing and he's finally just broken ground on this subway that he's promised that it's supposed to replace the LRT that was free that he canceled so that his brother actually canceled, but he was this was no, I mean It's not all it's all roses with these guys. 
Where where was this? 
What city was this? 
In Toronto doesn't Toronto In Toronto's East End, there's a region called Scarborough and Scarborough is is very poorly serviced by transit Okay, and it's the lower-class areas and the lower Income communities they have to take bus after bus to get to the subway. 
I see and so for years there's been a kind of a you know, we need to expand out there and They had a free LRT that the province was going to pay for and It was canceled now they're building this three-stop subway that's connecting them with the existing subway So who knows? 
Oh, you know what? 
I remember about the the Toronto subway is just they have this antiquated paper ticket system Do they still have that? 
No, no, we're all on the Presto now. 
Okay, the ticket collectors walk around the station now. 
Uh-huh. 
It's hilarious Okay, they had to come out of there Well, they have to come out of their booths because there's nothing to do in the booths and now they're just wandering around I guess trying to be helpful or something Interest like a ambassador or whatnot, but they don't do anything Wow Cool. 
Any anything else to report from up there? 
Anything else to report the election a lot of buildings going up. 
No, not too much. 
I don't know Okay, are we gonna talk to you guys we're gonna see you at hope Yes, I'm coming and I'm organizing a hacker poetry event. 
Oh, wow. 
That sounds great hacker poetry. 
Yeah like that Mm-hmm. 
So right now we're in the works We're I'm talking to some people were you know, organize it very least some kind of performance event where people be encouraged to perform as well as some people we plan to perform Cool Yeah, we'll see what happens. 
All right Well just one example of the many things you can do at a conference like hope and anyone wants to get involved and do their Own thing hope.net is where you find out more information Very cool. 
All right Kirby is great hearing from you again and look forward to seeing you in July Super and hello to the whole team Yes, they're out there Hello quiet, but they're out there No problem. 
All right. 
Take care. 
Talk to you later Wow, I see we have an icon for Alex. 
Does that mean he's there or just we just looking at his icon He is auditing this part of the okay. 
All right. 
He's here in spirit. 
So he won't be getting a grade That's right. 
Our phone number 802 3 2 1 4 2 2 5 8 0 2 3 2 1 hack That's our phone number we're also available at hacker radio show as well as as well it I Don't know what this button does I'm gonna press this button up but go ahead now you louder But the phone might ring on it as well as at Hope comp on Twitter And I think that's that's our Instagram too you see that noise if I had the button pushed in you'd be lower But you wouldn't have heard that noise. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the hook overtime Hey, how you doing, what's up with your world? 
Oh, you know with battling technology other than that, we're fine Well, you know a No, but it sounds horrible Well, it's a Hollywood reporter has the thing on it. 
I think I think Rob, you know something about this. 
I Just I just heard the sort of chattering about it. 
But yes, I'm please please tell us more caller Yeah, it's called finding Jack and it's a Vietnam action flick And what they're gonna do for the action part is they're gonna have a body double But the rest of us gonna be deep fake so they're gonna be fake his face and his voice Okay, basically Who wants this exactly I Don't know but you know, I'm kind of curious how it'll work out. 
I mean Why James Dean I don't know maybe because his Likeness rights are about to come up or something like that. 
It's got to be something like there's just nobody available to sue them That's got to be something like that And as it's a it's a test to see what they'll plunge into next and and before you know it You'll just be seeing all your dead celebrities coming to life again Yeah, like Peter O'Toole. 
You know, I guess I give them ideas. 
But yeah anyone mm-hmm and Um What you're caught in Captain Tomorrow, you know Think about think about what it can be done with living people such as well say politicians running for office Did they say that or did they say something else you you'll never know Well that actually happened over in Korea. 
Yeah, I heard Yeah, like also they did it with a Brandon Lee Remember when he died from the crony like digitally redid his face, you know actor replaced him You know, this is it's kind of scary I guess I mean if you're I Mean, what do your family do? 
I mean, what do they do to protect your likeness? 
Yeah Women Yeah, I have some I have some feelings about that whole thing just in general and it's interesting because if you're if you're curious About it the most recent season of the Mandalorian the Star Wars show and you know, may the fourth be with you had had some scenes which featured a young Luke Skywalker from the original Star Wars films and what they did to achieve this was they had a Double play the physical part of Luke Skywalker But they popped a computer-generated face on to him and then also computer-generated the dialogue So it wasn't even Mark Hamill voicing his younger self It was a robot like Alexa basically Speaking the lines and there was a lot of reaction to this with people thinking it it just seemed a bit off It seemed uncanny valley and it just didn't seem very good And I don't know if I want to sit in front of a whole movie of that But James Dean Alexa stop Play Rob, please, you know, we've talked about don't say a like don't say the word because then she does things I have to have to stop. 
I Just wanted to add that Alex has told me that misappropriation of another's image is a criminal offense in New York. 
Well, you have backchanneled Alex No, I am I am a medium through which Alex speaks. 
Oh My god, this is getting out of control. 
Yeah, it's off the metaphysics, uh-huh Wow, and I happen to hear you say May 4th. 
Today is May 4th. 
May the 4th is May the 4th But it's also the anniversary of the anniversary of Kent State Massacre just so I can put things in perspective Man and I didn't get you a card the the other thing about this though is that As someone who's into filmmaking and has done some work in that field like there are so many actors out there struggling for work who have talent and are just waiting for their shot and their chance and Rather than you know, give one of those newbies a shot They're they're going to computer generate somebody who is dead and has nothing to do with any of this happening Yeah, but one day those actors one day those doctors will die too, and then they'll have their moment Yeah, it's like my art career I'll take right off after I'm dead, uh-huh. 
Yeah, well it gets much more valuable but it's it's it's a Crazy world. 
We're moving into it. 
Let's just never forget that. 
It's crazy. 
It doesn't make any sense and Just try to derail every opportunity I guess Why not just like completely generate a whole new person like the Japanese company did with the singer while back or max headroom Or max headroom Yeah, I mean just just start from scratch. 
I mean why do you bother with this when you just start from scratch? 
I mean It technology is about there. 
Mm-hmm. 
No Yeah, you can have that you could have that fake person be your Facebook persona You could have them have credit cards and and be a real person Except they're not Yeah, I don't know if you've been watching the Johnny Depp stuff I've been trying to avoid it personally It's messed up Like today they were she was like talking about how they went out to a trailer park Apparently rich people and celebrities have a trailer park. 
They can go to in a place called Hicksville Hey, hey, we have a Hicksville here on Long Island. 
So be very tread carefully We're very sensitive to that name It's it's a train junction to this this there's you know, three platforms so it's a it's a big deal So it's just it's just strange that you know, rich people are just like plumbing it in like a double watch somewhere. 
I Mean it's just like I can't I can't get around it's like I Keep thinking of the squid bill. 
You ever seen that show? 
Yeah, whatever happened to that They ran out of story That's too bad Yeah, I know to bring them Beavis and butthead back. 
Oh, they have to do that. 
Really? 
Okay, yeah, I liked it back when I was young but you know, I don't know I look back on it now like You know Beavis and Butthead is just so tame now with what's considered edgy now That's true Yeah, when the Simpsons first came on the air that was controversial. 
There were petitions to stop them. 
Yeah, I remember I remember in middle school they Kept us from buying t-shirts and when I'm school You get worse since the t-shirt Wow, I Could see Mike judge doing different stuff, but Why go back to that? 
He's done so many other cool different things He could do something that's totally different from what Silicon Valley was He's gonna bring back the king king of the hill king of the hill Why do that again go the hills on Family Guy this week for a second There's already enough reference and derivative to it and but the story was unfinished We need to know what happened to their other story propane accessories and and little Bobby Yeah, the king of the hill movie I go to that I would yeah and then make a sequel make a couple sequels and Franchise that puppy a prequel to yeah, how did it all begin? 
Good luck. 
Mm-hmm. 
Yeah I like I like to see a crossover Jane Silent Bob the trailer park boys, and it's always sunny in Philadelphia We're gonna track down the best weed in Canada. 
Uh-huh in Philadelphia. 
I Think it'd be great Yeah, sure. 
Let's have all kinds of crossovers Yeah, I mean Let's see, um, there's not much else going on I guess besides the abortion stuff, but you know What can you do when you vote people in and they still don't do anything? 
You know, I mean, well, you're talking about people that would prevent this. 
I think it's it's because They're not enough of them were voted in Yeah It's just I don't know I mean It's going back to states rights over Understand and you're in a you're in Missouri, right? 
Yeah, so that's a state that only it's one. 
There's only one abortion clinic here anyway Yeah, and people are probably dancing cartwheels for what's what's happening there. 
But is there is there much opposition that you can see? 
No, I mean, it's I Don't listen really radio out here nothing like that. 
So I don't know what they're saying about it. 
Mm-hmm on Facebook, you know my People on the back home. 
They're not really saying nothing about it. 
Be honest all the same people who would put memes up like about abortion stuff like it and the precious the precious little angels and all that other stuff and And they haven't really said anything about it, it's Actually, it just seems like It seems like the Republicans are mad because they didn't get to do photo op more than anything else That's a leak about the leak It's called they didn't get to break the news themselves ago. 
Ha ha and here's their photo op It just doesn't seem it just doesn't seem to be Dancing in the streets over anywhere. 
I've seen I mean, it's Kind of you know If I don't think it I don't think I Think the room was made without even Putting much thought into it just to you know, sue some political Stuff or whatever, but Mm-hmm, like the polls say most people on it. 
Yeah, it's it's two to one It's funny because Fox came out with something yesterday. 
I just basically said no, it's not it's this not like they basically made it up They said they have 52% of Americans support banning abortion I don't know how they came up with a number like that, but every poll that I have seen it's it's something like 64 65 percent are in favor of Roe versus Wade and about 20 24 percent Are are directly opposed to it? 
so it's it's just insane when you have news outlets that just basically will make things up and And it's about that as fact and and a lot of people will believe it and before you know it in Orwellian fashion It becomes fact Well, that's the thing like, you know, the news doesn't have to be honest, I mean There's no long thing. 
It has to be honest. 
I Know that Biden did his thing with them putting them to the disinformation Department in the in the Homeland Security or something like that Okay But that could backfire, I mean you can get a bunch of crazy conservatives in there next time around next election, right? 
The thing is if if if votes matter, you know if they actually count votes fairly Then that shouldn't happen if people care enough to actually turn out Yeah Well, the thing is it's like, um, you know, I don't know what it is about voting with Americans, I mean nobody We should just have it as a holiday to be honest. 
Oh, absolutely Yeah, I mean we go through this every time should be on a weekend like every other country. 
It should be a holiday It should be easy. 
But again, look who's preventing people from voting. 
Look who's trying to make it harder It's Republicans because the fact is when people turn out Republicans lose they want less people to turn out They want their people to turn out, but that's it. 
And that's why they're fighting so hard to prevent What what was just a shadow in 2020 from happening again down the road now Imagine if people really turned out if they really were empowered But you know, we're so cynical in this country that we are convinced if we don't get what we want immediately It's not gonna work. 
We shouldn't try it again and And and voting really is the only way to make a difference and I say getting on the streets and showing some passion is Another way to inspire people to do these things Yeah, it's like those truckers are still out doing it. 
I guess they are yeah, they went to they went to Sacramento did like a little rally thing and Then the mandates dropped and then they started doing an anti-abortion thing and now this happened. 
I Think that way back to DC. 
They're just looking for a place to park is what they're doing. 
Yeah, that's pretty much That's pretty much all they do They bump for money and a couple were on stream like bragging about going to a strip club like last night and stuff like that After begging for money because we don't have enough money to do whatever they need to do and Well a couple of them. 
Well, they stopped in Portland. 
They stopped in the middle of the highway They had a fire truck and they took a water hose to what they claim was in Tifa up on an overpass and sprayed them They had a fire truck fire truck, how do they have a fire truck fire truck? 
How do I get a fire truck? 
So cool Well, you have it. 
You have that band. 
So yeah, but I can't put out a fire with I could start a fire with but I can't put one out Yeah Yeah, and well up there and they also pulled out guns and started shooting Wow, there is actually video where they when you pan over you can see one of them pulling out a Sand color gun There's one that's from from inside of the car Or it looks like they just like got a gun like held up against the door and everything They're shooting just that anything in particular randomly They said in people's turn rocks Adam I'm starting to think it's a put-on because You know the cops looked into it, yeah, they found some cases and stuff like that, but you know I'll send a lot of streamers on this thing start saying well deep within it It's not not to press charges and like that don't sound right So I'm just wondering if they kind of just made it all up, you know Just stopped in the middle of an overpass say hey, we'll meet here And we'll do this that near the register over your head, you know, try to make the news with it Why would they want to make the news by firing guns at an overpass? 
So how is that good publicity for them? 
Well, the way they've been finished like any Publicity is good publicity, right? 
Even if it's bad But they're starting to lose their funding from like online sources like cash app and stuff like that So they kind of someone were tripping over that They also Apparently there was some somebody's running for mayor son and not Portland, but uh, I Can't remember I think was Olympia or something like that. 
It's a Trump guy and One of them decided to go next to a campaign trailer, whatever There's like it's big boom big explosion that sound like somebody put a firecracker in a paint can You know, you know, I mean Yeah, it was just loud And they try to say and people was trying to bomb the mayor Candidate or something like that and then they were took off either. 
It's just Just bad, I mean the Big name like organizers don't even show up for the meetings anymore one got fired or something Now like Can I just say as as the assistant to the regional manager of Antifa over here, Long Island We're bored with them we are we've changed the channel we've moved on so whatever they're doing not interested Well, they they had like these It's a video these four women like dressed up all in black with black mask and black flags Like dancing around in a circle Saying that was Antifa. 
I hope someone's making a film of this though. 
It's it's so entertaining I Should like try to put something together. 
Yeah, why not? 
Why not? 
It sounds like you have a lot of water say There's a YouTube channel called meanwhile, mm-hmm that covers this and there's a lot of just takes clips of them the same meanwhile and and It's it's crazy. 
Another pedophile showed up live streaming Announced all together Well, listen this way, you know, this this has been fascinating update we're gonna we're gonna move on give some other people a chance to get through But please give us give us a call in the future. 
Give us a little bit of this All right. 
Take care. 
Bye. 
Bye. 
Bye 8 0 2 3 2 1 4 2 2 5 8 0 2 3 2 1 hack you guys in sky plan you're awfully quiet You still out there? 
We're here. 
We're here and while we're waiting for you to come on the show. 
We're gonna have a little bit of a chat We're here we're here and while we're waiting for another phone call, I'll just throw out there really quick that 2600 meetings are happening all over the place this Friday including hours here in New York at the City Group building 53rd in Lexington NYC 2600 net for more info awesome Wow happening everywhere all around unless otherwise designated on our website 2600 comm slash meetings Absolutely, I need to be safe. 
I think you need to dot HTML as well but yeah, that's it's there and Every every month we get more meetings coming back, which is great And if you want to start a meeting right to meetings at 2600 comm and let us know is Alex there I see his icon, but I don't know sure if he's actually able to speak. 
I Think he's still listening in case. 
He's not able to speak. 
Um, I I Imagine if he wanted to he could jump in and speak, but if nothing else, he's listening He could write messages in the chat. 
We can read them. 
I just see a sketch of his face, but that's yes I drew that sketch. 
That's that's really something. 
Maybe you can hit a touchtone or something if he's oh, no, he's not on the phone Is he there's nothing you can do on Skype. 
I don't get it. 
Let's take another phone call. 
Good evening You're on off the hook overtime. 
Go ahead. 
Hi, man. 
You're gonna turn it up a bit You don't think you're loud enough right now because I think you know, no, I'm not I don't know but it's The voice was done before you were pushing a button. 
Yeah. 
Well, okay The thing is I I push the button is what I do when we're getting a call I push the button in and I get lower when I push the button in for some reason because that's how the board works If I don't do that You see I distort a little bit If I don't do that If I don't do that, then you hear all that phone noise when Kyle picks up and hits a touchtone and all that so but then when I get a caller on the on the board, I Unpressed a button and I become louder again And I imagine this is something that you're happy with it is my level now good enough for you No, your level is now good But it's that when you're listening online like I was looking for the last caller, but I was just low I mean, would you guys a hacker? 
I mean you can't figure this out. 
I mean, I'm surprised Wow Okay way to make us feel bad. 
Well, that might be a setting on on the mixer thing You know, we go through this every week and it never seems to get better Yeah, if I turn it up, it's gonna be too hot. 
And then if we turn it down, it's gonna be not loud enough Nobody's ever happy I think what happens though the best way to listen is in the archive because and not on the YouTube archive on the 2600 archive because Jones Masterfully fixes all the audio issues. 
So at least at least for history for posterity. 
I think it sounds okay Well, you know when your archive with the 2600 thing, I don't like that player though It's like it's very little small and you can't really forward very, you know You can't use your keys to forward that like when I was listening to like old off the hooks You click on you know old shows or whatever it click on whatever show you want It has this default player that you can't really it's not that very I mean, it's a player It's good, but you can't you know It differs from browser to browser for one thing and second you can download the show and use whatever play you want Yeah, that's true. 
Um, yeah um, are you gonna have a high a Social engineering panel at the conference, right? 
Maybe we'll see, you know We're trying to fit in a lot of things and and you know, it's it's a lot of work but I actually you know I would I would welcome somebody submitting a social engineering panel because I'm not sure I've got time for that. 
Oh well, I mean I could do it like maybe like Social engineering like scam callers cause that I don't like people get I think you'd be perfect to give some kind of presentation for sure Maybe with a couple other people definitely do that one. 
I mean, uh You know or and I mean that I mean something with scammers, I mean but the problem with that is You when you can you know, they cheat changing the phone numbers You can't really call them that you know what I mean? 
Like they call you and then yeah, I call you from a phone number you try and call him back. 
It doesn't work It's it's difficult to do live live presentations. 
Go ahead Kyle. 
What did you have? 
I was just gonna remark that you know, one aspect of it is the the Ability to maybe Do a social engineering Panel beforehand, maybe maybe in other words Dispense with having it live. 
I know that's Heartbreaking. 
Well, you don't have all of it live You could have demonstrations that are recorded because you know What part of the problem that we had with social engineering? 
Was calling places that nobody picked up the phone or they weren't there at the time Well, it would be on a weekend and variably at an odd time of day and you've got hundreds of people watching you and It's kind of hard to to make it work perfectly and a lot of places that really deserve to hear from us And I mean that sincerely they might not be there, you know during the weekend and that's always been a bit of a hassle when we're Pitching and talking about ideas and going back and forth on what would be really fun for that But social engineering Department of Defense best time to do that is like weekdays business hours and you know Then you can record that Right. 
Oh, you know on this live show you're doing you should have like a live chat or you not want to do that We're not live though. 
That's the thing. 
Um, we're actually recorded right now. 
I would encourage Maybe using IRC dot 2600 net and going into the pound off the hook IRC channel, that's a plenty good chat area if chat is your gas But we're not going to do it on the streaming site We'd prefer to just keep it where people have already been been sort of going back and forth about the show I'm sorry. 
I was missing on the comment. 
I was misinformed. 
Apparently we are live. 
I thought we were on tape This was explained to me before but I guess I misunderstood. 
This is live. 
Okay. 
So yeah, of course This is live because I'm speaking right? 
No, no because Damn, I had this before No, because if we're on tape than you're on tape because we're in the same same same I Don't know we have an engineer. 
No, we would never tell rebel if we were on tape with him. 
That's right We didn't tell him we were we were on tape. 
Yeah, you're rebel. 
You're actually this is exactly how it's supposed to go you're buying into it and The plan worked Maybe I'm just a computer-generated voice that's calling you. 
Yeah, we're an IV our system. 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
Yeah, it's definitely He's a deep fake if I ever if I've ever met one speaking of all that and augmented real or whatever. 
It's called I mean, um, you know, I'm part of autumn Reality not automated reality. 
I'm like Like Whatever Intelligence intelligence like the artificial intelligence When you go, you know that GoFundMe has algorithms that you know, see whether you know How why do some people make tens of thousands of dollars on go for me? 
and like if I was to put I want the 50 thousand dollars for me to go travel around the world or something I mean that wouldn't get anything. 
But if somebody else said, oh I need money for medical bills then that gets them thousands of dollars. 
Hold on a second Hold on a second You mean you're upset that you can't get the same kind of treatment for your travel around the world as someone else is getting for life-saving medical procedures Well, no, it's not really like saving medical. 
It's not like just like taking them people who do for like weddings and for their wedding and for Somebody that you know is I don't know I think being sued or whatever from store that it's being sued or something for But we're not remaining close to something. 
They got all the support maybe because the media it was on the media. 
That's probably why Yeah, how you get how you get attention? 
That's that's what matters Does anybody know if you get the money immediately for like a GoFundMe if you're yeah, you get I I think I think what happens That you say I want to raise $10,000 and then Somebody donates with their credit card or whatever. 
They donate and then you get like say $5,000. 
It's in like a Not really an account, but like a thing It'll say Oh 5,000 of 10,000 was raised and that the person is Raising the money can take that money. 
They link it with their bank account and just put it into their bank account immediately Okay, cool. 
Yeah, but I think you have to be taxes on it or something or I don't know how that income. 
Yeah, of course Yeah, but how they don't ask for your like Social Security number or anything, I don't know I've never done a GoFundMe I'm sure they do. 
I'm sure they they take all kinds of info they forward to the IRS or something Maybe you should do a GoFundMe to raise money for like, you know equipment and like better, you know I don't know things No, there's plenty of other people. 
I think that really need to use those kinds of platforms. 
Yeah, and we people I mean It people seem to think that money will fix everything that we talked about and that's really not our jam Yeah, we just have to be smarter. 
I mean money Well, I mean is involved in a lot of things but it's not like just gobs of money would not make our show better No, it helped educate us so that we know what we're doing because you know, we have yet to achieve that That's Yeah It's like YouTube, you know how they have algorithms on YouTube to make Well, like if I'm put a you I put I made a video And I put it like New York City, New York City before covered 19. 
I did this like a 2000 15 from went around and recorded things like Grand Central and Wall Street and Penn Station and and different things around the city and It got only like maybe a hundred views or 200 views But I mean some of the videos that I did like when I got my first electric bike dad got lots of use Go move. 
Um, you do as this algorithm of what? 
You know makes views I mean like to get better more views or something or Well, I think I think the goal here is to make rebel viral, you know, if we can do that Then you'll have no trouble reaching GoFundMe for anything that you want to raise money for It's the same thing as YouTube they have an algorithm that you know, like You know, so you want to figure out how to game sort of traffic, but through either YouTube or like a fundraising campaign Just like well, yeah, I don't like Google like if you have a business on Google Well, it's search engine optimization SEO search engine optimization I mean, it's a thing people do it for for running their business and stuff, you know But it's like reviews like reviews I like it like it a lot I want to stay at a particular hotel or go to a particular restaurant and I want to feel their view the bearded There's a company that actually takes the bad reviews and puts them at the bottom So if there's like a hundred reviews of this particular business All the bad reviews are at the bottom because then they know that people aren't going to scroll down there and all the good reviews Are on the top Rob go ahead The thing with the algorithms on sites like GoFundMe and I've worked on this sort of thing I've worked on some Kickstarter campaigns and stuff like that is that those sites themselves their own algorithms don't have all that much influence at least in the beginning because where you're gonna get your traffic if you're running a Kickstarter or a GoFundMe or any kind of campaign like that is You need to post that link around on your other channels where you hopefully have audiences So like if you have your GoFundMe, then you need to post that to your social media You need to post that to Forums that are into the sort of thing that that you're trying to raise money for you need to get that traffic pull it in yourself Because GoFundMe themselves YouTube themselves. 
They're not just gonna hand you traffic out of nowhere You need to get interest going in your thing And then once there's interest going in your thing It might end up like going to the top of say the Kickstarter home page or the GoFundMe home page or or whatever else And they're like featured projects Sections so it's it's never it's not as much about the algorithms on those site themselves as as it is the algorithms on everything else that you're using to bang the drum and And get and get people interested in donating to you You know We can we can go on the radio where people are listening to our show and say support WBA I because it's important WB You know gift to WBA I org and You know some of the people listening will be interested in that hopefully and we'll go to the site or call or whatever Because we are using We are using the the appropriate sort of Venue to get that word out You know if we just put gift to WBA I org up on the internet and never told anyone about it That that wouldn't do much for us If we put on the Empire State Building though, then all of a sudden we're exposing to a lot more people Right, but why when my I put out when I got my first my new electric bicycle I got thousands of views on YouTube when I reviewed it when I you know But then New York City like I would think that me posting videos called, New York City Tour or whatever, you know walking around in your city, whatever. 
We may have to be before covered 90 Thank God, you know, not not very many few Likely happened is somebody with a lot of followers noticed your electric bicycle video and said hey people you guys see this You won't believe it and a bunch of people went over and saw it This person was not so impressed with your next video or didn't know about it Well, I mean I It I'm sorry Yeah, but I don't have very many like subscribers what I have So, I mean they don't have to be a subscriber though It's just somebody who found it by you know, either you told them or somebody, you know told them or they just found it randomly That's how that's how these things start So I think the key is to make you know Consistent quality and if there is a fan base, then they'll keep wanting to see what you do next well, but go funny has this algorithm and I like the people who donate to like the Ukrainian of Mission like trying to help you crank the people in you could they they're trying to screen out the people who are scamming them like if I put a Something let's say I create something I go for me thing I want to go to you to please help me go to Ukraine and help the people there or whatever it brief 10,000 They their their algorithm will probably say oh, that's probably a scam or maybe it won't maybe it will I mean me I mean, I've heard on a news report. 
I don't think you need an algorithm to know that's a scam I think anybody reading that would know immediately that was a scam But rebel let's let's do one thing then we're gonna move on to another call Tell us your your YouTube channel name and maybe people will hear it now and go to you go to your videos Well, I mean that's the thing. 
I want to put content up. 
My channel is Richard Conti my name Richard Conti There's also a Richard Conti at the floor. 
If you just put Richard Conti, you know, it'll that's the other thing Richard Conti is a common name. 
So That's the name of my channel. 
How do you spell it? 
Like how do you spell that? 
It's content c-o-n-t-e, okay And now I could put rich the rebel. 
I mean I could put that well, you could but maybe somebody else has that Right, but Richard Conti is you know, the one that I that's the channel name But now I just want to I mean, I don't know what kind of content I mean, I have things like going around New York City and things like that and and Come into thinking like Flushing Queens and that got a lot of views my you know Recording different parts of Flushing Queens You know our listeners out there Go to his channel and maybe tweet maybe tweet a couple links to videos you like and maybe we can Drive your your viewer count up and then see see what happens as you climb the ladder of YouTube success I mean the other thing when you do is they don't let you With Contact a subscriber Contact the subscriber of content or not even subscribers, but people contact the the user. 
Yeah person who made it the the the page the How do they prevent you from doing that if you tell them who you are? 
No, no, no, no, not showing you when you want to contact them to like email to say Something like private but not on the public, you know Each video has like a comment section Right, if I wanted to if somebody wants to comment, but not publicly they can't comment to the to the creator of the YouTube You could give me an email address. 
I can comment to you that way. 
I could give you an email Okay, which I have simple enough a rebel great hearing from you and we're gonna move on I went I went to the 2600 meeting last month. 
There was nobody there. 
Is that true Rob? 
I I was there and so we're a bunch of other people. 
Yeah, so, you know, I make sure you People playing like Bingo or something. 
Are you are you calling us liars? 
Yes Go to the right part of that. 
First of all, you're going to the right building, right? 
You're not going to the old building No, I'm going to the 20 the one way we used to have it in the where that that huge thing is now Alright if Rob says they were there they were there Yeah, there was a bingo game going on in the room But we were on the other side of the table sort of section. 
So, you know wander around a bit Faces, I'm sure they're bingo people. 
They're the same night. 
We're there. 
What the hell? 
Nothing more disruptive There was what now? 
There was a drag show going on as well. 
And I think the drag show was doing the bingo I'm not entirely sure Wow. 
Well, that's gonna be an interesting bingo. 
I'll say that Rebel good hearing from you. 
Stay safe. 
We'll talk to you later Okay, bye and I'm gonna say one more phone call. 
That's it eight zero two three two one four two two five eight zero two three two one Four two two five. 
There's a phone. 
I'm gonna press the button now and Kyle's gonna press the other button We're gonna do this seamlessly and do we have a call? 
Okay. 
Good evening, sir. 
Go ahead. 
You're is that Bobson? 
Yes, sir, Bobson from Bulgaria. 
What a great way to end the night. 
How have you been? 
Oh, look Alex's is here alive Alex's did you make it back home Alex or you want to train still? 
He's shaking his head. 
We still he still can't speak. 
I don't believe this Bobson. 
So, how are you? 
Well, all right, I guess May made a force be with you. 
Yes, and to you and also with you I Hope you have more to say than that Well Let me think about it You didn't think of before you called us that would have been the bet in the time to think about it Well, yeah, you know, I've got Bobson here thinking, you know in slow motion and I've got Alex who's mouthing things I can't hear him. 
This is this is the shot. 
Look at this He's typing things and they last on the screen. 
You see this Kyle. 
They're on the screen for like five seconds and they're gone Yeah, Alex is asking about Russian oil not going to Bulgaria now Wait, we're supposed to convey messages from Alex who's there on the screen But for some reason can't talk and and read them to Bobson. 
Okay, go ahead read the question Petroleum I Heard that Bulgaria is also extending its Mechanical repair expertise to busted military equipment from across the border in Ukraine. 
You heard that Alex heard that no I heard that reported from the Kiev independent. 
I believe there's another message on the screen there from Alex There's a lot of Decision made decisions made about support to be extended to the Ukraine Yeah It's incredible Yeah, they're really doing what they can and I think that's great that's you know what there's probably a lot of broken stuff and There's probably a lot of people in Bulgaria who are like, yeah, we can fix some stuff. 
We'll do that. 
Bring it. 
Mm-hmm Let's let's let's get it back out there So Alex just wanted me to let you know Bob's in that he had a Bulgarian Lyft driver in Chicago this week what a Bulgarian lift lift. 
I thought he was on like a forklift or something lift. 
Okay now I get it. 
Yeah lift lyf. 
Yeah Yes, it's a brand. 
Uh-huh You have any comment about that. 
Do you know this driver in Chicago? 
Obviously, yeah, because all Bulgarians know each other all know each other, but you feel free to not really. 
Yeah. 
All right I'm gonna let Alex know you have no further comment on the I'm not saying I don't know the person but Hmm it may not be Yeah, what was the person's name Alex? 
I mean, how you supposed to know, you know, if you don't give a name All right. 
Let me delete that. 
I'm gonna just say he may not know him, but he might wait Why are you saying that Alex can hear us? 
You don't have to retype what what we're saying on the radio because I was just typing Out loud, but yeah, it's for a fact. 
I was trying to be look at that Alex is completely frozen or Amtrak has stopped Which it is and now it's gone Unbelievable, he's never take Amtrak again during our show. 
It's it's Alex just says Dave No, Dave was his name. 
Okay. 
Do you know Dave Bobson a Bulgarian named Dave? 
No, he does not. 
All right anything else What time of day what happens start with that what happened with DST on your end. 
They like savings time was in full effect right now Well, yeah, except maybe it isn't Well, it's gonna stop not you asking if we decided to keep it and stay in daylight savings time people were talking about that But I don't think it's gonna happen. 
It's a stupid idea to start with well, I think you started it for a Couple weeks in March and then you reverted to standard time. 
No, that did not happen We went into daylight savings time and then we stayed in daylight savings time and we'll stay there until I think October Well, you're in Bulgaria I'm here in America and I think I know how time works in America Sorry, I don't mean to sound so You know, so gung-ho there but yeah, that was like pretty self. 
Well time is something I take personally Back off a little look we're gonna we're gonna keep doing the same thing because it's a stupid idea You know Why it's a stupid idea to have daylight savings time all the year long Because the morning and people don't seem to realize this will get very very dark and kids will be waiting for school buses in pitch Black dark. 
I know because I was one of those kids when we tried this in the past it's a stupid idea people will complain about it immediately and We just wind up going back if you want to do anything keep standard time. 
It'll get dark earlier. 
That's fine You know, I don't really care if it's if it's, you know light at 10 o'clock at night And that makes a bit more sense. 
It's called standard time. 
There's a reason for that. 
So if you're gonna do anything you do that Yeah, that's what we did in the Year so you guys are on standard time forever now, you know, you're not going back to daylight savings Nope. 
Okay, which means that there is a difference in time now between you and us Which wasn't there last year? 
Because you would be on daylight savings time as well. 
So how many hours difference is 913 here? 
It's nearly 4 a.m It's got to be 313. 
I would say right It's not really nearly 4 a.m. 
It's Yeah making Bob's and work here to look at the clock Which in Bulgaria is not the easiest thing in the world to do Where you keep your clock It's on my computer which is locked in a way that makes it not visible they make portable clocks now, you know Well, yes, and I'm speaking to you on one of them yes, you could just look at that It's 415 415 a.m. 
Oh, wow. 
So so it's seven hours difference now That's different. 
Okay used to be six now. 
It's seven Yeah, because oh Yeah And I guess in the when it's hmm when it's Standard time when we go when we fall back That means it'll be eight hours difference. 
Is that what's gonna happen? 
Because it'll be 815 right and it'll still be 415. 
Well geographically. 
It's seven hours difference in terms of time zones and such You're not Central European time though, right Central European time is is another hour, right? 
Yes, we're Eastern European and That's what makes me think that you people went back to standard at some point after switching to summer time for well We if if they did nobody told me and in fact there have been days when the time has switched and I haven't even known About it because everything switches automatically Okay All right, well I'm glad we had this conversation about time it's something I'll I'll think about any any closing thoughts Well, I think I'll wait for the closing thoughts for a few decades know that Yeah, yeah you said that before too Yes, I know I'm repeating myself Any concluding remarks for this evening Bobson Well, I Can't come up with anything better than made a fourth day with you so Again also stated multiple times, but then it's good hearing from you and hopefully we'll hear from you again Technically It's the fifth there. 
All right. 
All right. 
Yeah, it is the fifth what what gives Well, it's the fifth here, but not there. 
Happy Cinco de Mayo. 
There you go Well, okay, you know, do you get that over there Well Some parts of Europe probably have it like Spain and Portugal and places like this Mm-hmm All right, then Good evening, everybody. 
Stay in touch. 
Thanks for listening and making a call. 
We'd love to catch up. 
Yes. 
Take care All right, that's gonna do it for us here tonight on off the hook overtime boy. 
What a What an ordeal If thoughts from you guys out there in Skype land including Alex who I don't think we can actually get his microphone to work That's from here Abortion is a human right trans rights are human rights reproductive rights are human rights fight Donate do something But get angry. 
It's a way to get angry. 
Yeah, I just want to say everyone knows that Everyone knows that life begins at a social security number. 
There you go. 
Yeah, that's how you know All right. 
I see Alex's face there, but we can't hear him. 
So he's waving and You'll have to take our word for that We'll see you again next week, and hopefully nobody will be on a train night