And I see Rob T. Firefly. 
Good evening. 
And I hear him, too. 
I see Gila. 
Good evening. 
And is that Alex I see over there? 
It is. 
Good evening. 
Okay. 
Again, your microphone is weird. 
But we'll struggle through somehow. 
Okay. 
You've all heard. 
We haven't been on the last couple of weeks. 
So a lot has happened. 
And the story that probably everybody who is a listener to this radio program has heard by now is that tale that every media outlet has aired. 
Every newspaper has printed, the last public pay phone in New York City has been removed from Midtown. 
I believe that was the headline in The Gothamist. 
And in just about every other newspaper. 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
And, you know, I can't tell you how many times we were alerted, contacted, given sympathy. 
People sent bouquets of flowers. 
It was ridiculous. 
Look, we have a great affinity for pay phones. 
But, you know, we don't feel actual pain when something bad happens to pay phones. 
You know, we're as sad as anybody. 
And a bit angry, too, because I think it's a dumbass move to get rid of pay phones. 
What happens if there's an emergency on a city block and you don't have a cell phone or your cell phone isn't working or the battery is dead or, you know, there's some kind of other emergency which makes all the cell towers not work? 
Having a pay phone is a good idea. 
Up in Canada, they get it. 
Virtually every town where you drive through, you see a pay phone booth. 
Everybody knows where it is. 
And it's a place to go. 
The lines don't go down the way that cell phone lines can go down. 
So it's a bad move. 
But it's also not entirely accurate because while there may have been this big to-do about a particular type of pay phone being removed from Manhattan, it does not mean that it was the last pay phone in Manhattan and certainly not in New York City. 
For those who don't know, New York City encompasses the boroughs of Queens, Brooklyn, the Bronx, Staten Island, and Manhattan. 
Five boroughs. 
They all are part of New York City. 
So just because something is removed from Manhattan does not mean it was removed from New York City. 
There are pay phones still that exist. 
I believe, you know, Rob Gila, you're in Queens. 
Are you aware of any pay phones that currently are living peacefully in the streets? 
No? 
You're muted, so we can't hear you. 
Huh. 
Huh. 
How about now? 
Yeah, that's better. 
Fantastic. 
I was going to say, we used to have that pay phone a couple blocks from us, which you remember when we did the show remotely from the pay phone? 
Yeah, that was a couple of years ago. 
That pay phone is now gone. 
You were supposed to watch over that pay phone. 
How did it disappear? 
I think it might have been during lockdown. 
We just looked the other way and we came outside and it was gone. 
You know, that's what this whole COVID thing was really all about. 
It was a ploy by the government to get rid of our pay phones. 
100%. 
Yeah, we all know that. 
Do your research. 
You'll find out. 
You will. 
But, okay, there are pay phones, though. 
I mean, on the subway platforms, there are pay phones. 
Our friend Rebel reports to us that in the Rockefeller Center concourse underground, there are pay phones. 
Friends are our pay phones in New York City. 
And there are old pay phones inside old restaurants that people have forgotten about. 
I think there are even phone booths in some places. 
What we would like for our listeners to do is let us know where they are. 
Take pictures. 
Say, hey, there's still a phone here. 
And maybe it has a dial tone, too. 
If it has a dial tone and it actually works, then that's especially important to spread around. 
But also, there are all kinds of different companies that can be operating pay phones. 
I mean, I imagine, you know, with customer-owned coin-operated telephones, CoCuts as they're called, anybody can pretty much set up a pay phone any place they want. 
So what's to stop individual citizens of New York City from setting up pay phones outside their homes, their apartments, or even inside? 
They can put them pretty much anywhere. 
I'm sure there are many, many pay phones still in existence. 
So that story, not entirely accurate. 
In fact, there is another story in hellgatenyc.com titled, The Death of New York City Pay Phones Has Been Greatly Exaggerated. 
And it's certainly true. 
Monday morning, the city of New York's, this was two Mondays ago, the city of New York's Department of Information Technology and Telecommunications, which is known as DOIT. 
It really is. 
Department of Information Technology and Telecommunications. 
They announced the end of an era. 
They were removing the last working pay phone in New York City. 
Once there were 79,000, and now there are none. 
So it all, it's their fault. 
They're the ones that spread this misinformation. 
It's, you know, somewhat accurate, but it's not entirely accurate. 
The milestone was marked with a bizarre amount of fanfare, including a photo op of a crane hoisting the last non-functional phone booth away. 
And no doubt, it will be taken to a pay phone farm upstate where it can run around and make as many collect calls as it wants in the fresh air. 
Actually, in reality, it's going to the Museum of the City of New York. 
But this wasn't the last pay phone in New York City, as we have said. 
In fact, just a few subway stops down from the press conference in the Union Square train station next to a CVS vending machine. 
What's a CVS vending machine? 
No clue. 
I couldn't tell you. 
Okay. 
Well, now I'm curious about two things in Union Square. 
Omni-scanners, I know what those are, and other trappings of our thoroughly modern world. 
One of these analog beauties gives a sweet dial tone. 
It works when you pick it up. 
It even charges you more for a long-distance call, which means anyone without a 212-347-917 or a 718 area code, and the other ones too, which I don't remember off the top of my head. 
The receiver was clean, meaning somebody's wiping it down somewhat regularly. 
So, yeah, they exist. 
Don't believe the hype. 
Thoughts? 
I mean, 646 and 929. 
Justice for 929. 
Yes. 
I'm just going to say, Justice for 929. 
But also, no, it does make me wonder if this was just a photo op that got picked up, and everybody fell for it. 
Everyone said, oh, this is, you know, there was a show on TV a few years ago called The Last Man on Earth, and he was not, in fact, the last man on Earth. 
But if people had believed that in the same way, I can only assume it would happen if people ran into Will Forte on the street and said, hey, you're the last man on Earth. 
I think this is an overblown publicity stunt that a lot of people fell for. 
And, yeah, I would encourage people around and about to take pictures of payphones they see in the wild and send them to us here at OTH2600.com so that we can take a look. 
I say go a step above that and send them to the media and say, look, explain this. 
You know, issue a correction. 
How about that? 
Go ahead, Rob. 
It also just seems a weird thing to have this kind of fanfare and photo op and press releases about, like, the payphone which was taken away, which was one of the, if you're local, you'll know the Titan payphones, which Titan was the company that inherited the street payphones from Verizon, what was formerly Bell Atlantic, 9X, and so on. 
But Titan had the contract for these things on the sidewalks, and basically they were more in the advertising business than they were in the telephone business. 
Their revenue streams were basically selling ads on the outside of the kiosks, and the phones themselves fell into disrepair. 
They were neglected, but they still worked in an emergency sometimes if you needed them. 
But I think that might be the last Titan payphone that was hauled away, and maybe someone somewhere just saw the wrong bit of paperwork. 
And took it the wrong way and thought, well, this must be the last payphone of any kind. 
But no, there are more payphones out there, and they do exist, and they are just fascinating bits of history and fascinating things to actually play with. 
If you go to hellgatenyc.com and find this article about the payphones, it was posted on May 23rd, there's actually an embedded sound file of a call that they made, that this writer made to his editor on that payphone. 
And you can hear it. 
It sounds like a payphone, and it's interesting. 
I like it very much. 
This is the hellgatenyc.com article we're referring to. 
But it wasn't just someone misinterpreting. 
It was New York City's Department of Information, Technology, and Telecommunications, the do-it people. 
They're the ones that announced this two Mondays ago and said, this is the last payphone in New York City. 
So maybe they're the ones that should issue some kind of a correction. 
Go ahead, Alex. 
I mean, I think regardless of whether or not it is entirely accurate as to whether this is the last payphone in New York, in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn, whatever it is, it does signal a changing tide in terms of telecommunications and in terms of what kind of society we are right now. 
 They are essentially these obelisk-looking mechanisms, very big, kind of bulky, rectangular structures that are on many corners in all five boroughs, I believe, of New York. 
And they provide Wi-Fi access to the public. 
And you can also make telephone calls. 
You can make local calls. 
You can make long-distance calls. 
You just saddle up to the kiosk itself and put in a telephone number that you're calling and go ahead and have a phone call right there. 
But it's not the same as being able to dial on a payphone. 
Number one, I believe that you only can have speakerphone on a LinkNYC kiosk. 
So that makes it a little bit difficult to have a private call when you're on speakerphone. 
Let's say, you know, on a very busy corner of New York, it's not really an ideal location to carry on a conversation. 
Number one, there might be some kind of speaker port, but I doubt it. 
And that would require people to have, you know, non-Bluetooth headphones. 
And it's just it's a different type of mechanism when it comes to how we communicate. 
It's not nearly as private. 
It's not a phone booth. 
It doesn't have it doesn't have any barriers around the side of it. 
You know, we are in this area now, I think, or rather this era that involves open communications. 
We're expected to just talk out in public without any concern whatsoever for privacy. 
And as Rob mentioned before, I think there's an analog to the LinkNYC kiosk and the Titan payphones that were removed. 
Because like Titan, LinkNYC does not necessarily make its money from providing municipal services to the people of the city of New York or London or wherever they're located. 
They make money by displaying ads on the side of their kiosk, just like Titan did. 
So this business model persists, but the form of telecommunication is completely different. 
All right, Gayla. 
I think also to kind of piggyback on what Alex is saying, that the press release announcing the end of the payphones came as a joint release from Do It and CityBridge, the people who run LinkNYC. 
Oh, did not know that. 
I didn't know that either. 
Wow. 
Well, it's in the Hell's Gate NYC post. 
But the other thing, Alex, to sort of talk about what you were saying is that there are a few LinkNYC kiosks across the street from our house. 
And there's one across the street from where I live. 
And excuse me, where I work. 
Pardon me. 
And if the goal is for them to be making money on advertising, they're doing something wrong, because 99% of the stuff I see on the screens are PSAs. 
Like, if New York City seems to be buying all the ad time, it's all, hey, this is the bus stop near where you're standing. 
And, hey, here's where you can go get a shot. 
And here's, like, points of interest on your block. 
And it seems to be missing a step. 
Also, didn't they used to have tablets that had to be deactivated because people were, in an interesting example of no privacy on these things, people were using the tablets they were there to pull up porn just in the middle of the street at all hours of the day. 
So they disabled the tablets that were there. 
And, you know, LinkNYC is not everywhere. 
It's not working as well as it could be. 
But, yes, Do It and CityBridge were the ones making a big, noisy fuss about this being the end of the payphone because LinkNYC is coming. 
So what we actually might have been seeing then was a big PR stunt on the part of LinkNYC. 
But I also want to add to what Gila was saying. 
If they are, in fact, not having as much advertising as we expected, we're not complaining about that. 
That's a good thing. 
If, in fact, New York City is taking more of an interest in programming these things rather than have it, you know, be the latest Calvin Klein advertising or something that is staring you in the face, that's something that, you know, we can live without for sure. 
These can be very valuable public service devices if they are spread out evenly throughout the city and if they're maintained. 
I mean, I like the fact that, yeah, you can make phone calls on them and you don't have to pay for the phone calls. 
That's a difference between that and payphones. 
Maybe that makes the fact that you're broadcasting your call to everybody around a little bit more palatable. 
It's something for an emergency. 
You know, that's my thing is covering emergencies that require you to be able to call something, somebody. 
Of course, the power issue is still a concern because if there's a blackout, you know, payphones tend to work. 
And I don't think LinkNYC is going to stay up very long in a power failure. 
I guess we have to test it and find out. 
Kyle, then Rob. 
I think I'm hearing this theme or a through line of ads in general not serving the kinds of businesses that people are applying them to. 
It's just not a revenue model. 
It's not a model you can apply to all kinds of things. 
And as was said about Titan, they turned into basically like ashtrays with ads and like things that people would stick gum to and like write on and leave trash and like empty drinks and stuff. 
It was years that they languished in that mode and were not installed. 
And I agree, like if this is City Leap or Bright Beam or Google Dog Food, I don't know what company it is. 
But if their way of doing a PR ad is just because they have the cranes or the contracts to use the cranes to yank stuff out, I really would rather see them talking about how they're enhancing the kinds of equipment that they've replaced it with. 
And the other thing I'm hearing and thinking at the same time is that I'm a little bit thankful at least that it's put the kinds and the ways we communicate back into the public psyche a little bit. 
Like what was that for and are the things that have supposedly replaced them like serving us in the same way? 
And like like the fact the way Titan Boost went was like this is what we think of public telecommunication, public telephone, people communicating anonymously perhaps in some instances or when they may not otherwise be able to have their own private line of sorts. 
So, you know, what kind of city is that creating and have we really advanced? 
I don't know that we have. 
I'd like to hear more PR stuff about what they're building and how they've upgraded and made these kiosks more functional, more available to more people the way those phone booths. 
Rob, one second. 
What I would like to know, though, from people who are right now going into the subways to find these pay phones for us, who's operating these pay phones? 
What company is actually behind that? 
Because Titan is no longer in the business. 
There's no more New York Telephone running pay phones. 
I don't think Verizon is doing it. 
So let us know who it is that's actually operating that particular pay phone that you might find on a subway platform. 
Go ahead, Rob. 
That's a very interesting question. 
Also, the other functions of the LinkNYC kiosks, we talked about them extensively on this program when the LinkNYC thing got started, which is they're loaded with cameras, they're loaded with antennas doing all sorts of interesting things, I'm sure, that they don't talk about. 
But I really like what Australia did. 
Our Australian friends have a good deal because when pay phones kind of faded out of use as a revenue-making stream, Australia's phone company just made the pay phones free. 
They left the pay phones where they were. 
They're still connected to the phone network. 
They're still making calls. 
They just don't charge you anymore. 
You can find a pay phone and make a free call. 
That's how it is. 
Because they didn't need to replace anything. 
Collecting those coins takes a lot of effort. 
I don't know if people remember this, but back in the day, in the 80s, you would see New York Telephone or whatever your phone company was, you would see step vans, like an Intimates truck. 
But they were phone company trucks. 
Those were for carrying the coins from pay phones. 
They were so heavy. 
They took so much space. 
You needed a truck like that in order to do that. 
I haven't seen a truck like that in a long time. 
Just totally dedicated to coins. 
Go ahead, Alex. 
I had basically wanted to make the same point as Rob, even though the fact that Titan may have been turned into an ashtray, as I think Kyle had mentioned, but we did neglect, I think, to consider the privacy component of having a telephone call without having cameras on you. 
I mean, in these Titan kiosks, or whether it was a booth or something like that, you could go into them, you could dial zero, you could make a collect call, you could put money into a pay phone and make a call in a completely anonymous way. 
Whereas if you were to walk up to a LinkNYC kiosk, you'd be on camera because there is a camera facing you. 
And if you were to try to approach that kiosk from the right or the left, you'd be on camera because there's cameras facing the right and the left. 
It's impossible, I think, to make a call without being caught on camera from one of these LinkNYC kiosks. 
And say what you will about Titan or CoCut companies, customer-owned coin-operated telephone companies, but at least there wasn't video surveillance of you making whatever call you made. 
I mean, the error of making some kind of anonymous phone call or a tip or something, people may undercut, I think, or underestimate the validity of what I'm saying here. 
Well, why would you need to make some kind of anonymous call? 
Well, think about it from a whistleblowing perspective. 
If you are really concerned about, let's say, relaying certain confidential information about wrongdoing, you don't want to use your cell phone to do it, you want to do it an anonymous way, a pay phone would have been a great way to do that. 
But you can't even use a LinkNYC kiosk anymore, let's say, to relay confidential information. 
So there really are, I think, significant privacy implications to this that we haven't all worked out yet. 
What you're saying, Alex, here in 2022 must be striking a lot of listeners as very alien because you're concerned with having a conversation that other people cannot hear. 
You're concerned with walking up to that device without cameras seeing you do that. 
And I guess, you know, the average person would say, what does Alex have to hide? 
Why does he want everything to be anonymous and secret? 
Everything is out in the open. 
You post your life on Facebook. 
Every thought goes on Twitter. 
You know, people know where you are at all times. 
Why do you want to be different? 
Why do you want to hide and be that horrible anonymous word? 
Oh, my God. 
Yeah, that is how far away we have gotten from the way things used to be. 
And it's kind of scary. 
Go ahead, Gila. 
I was thinking about that and extrapolating because also if you think about making phone calls in New York City and you think about transit in New York City because now we're getting very close to the end of anonymity with our mass transit working with Omni, you can't ride anonymously anymore because to have an Omni card, to put money on it, you have to have an account for it. 
And that tells you when and where you swiped. 
And it's creepy. 
And it's not like you can grab a handful of tokens and be wherever you want to be and no one knows. 
Like the city is tracking us in a lot more ways than we're used to. 
Well, a couple of things. 
First off, in the wake of the recent subway shooting, I think a lot of people are going to want to say, yeah, I want to know where everybody is and when they checked in and when they checked out, even though we don't check out on the New York City subway. 
And there's always that argument that you're going to wind up having. 
But as far as the anonymity with Omni, I haven't used Omni yet, but I'm thinking about ways to use it. 
You can use, and correct me if I'm wrong, any credit card that can transmit, you can use that as your entry pass. 
So you don't have to get a card using that card, right? 
That's correct. 
Yeah, you can use any contactless credit or debit card to pay your way through an Omni gate. 
But again, that's attached to your real identity or your legal identity. 
When you get an Omni card, that's a contactless card that you can load money onto with your accounts on whatever else, your credit or debit or bank accounts. 
But it just consolidates it to that one card you're using. 
So that Omni card that you get, how do you get that? 
Where do you get that? 
You get that at this point still in certain shops, certain retail stores. 
I think I finally found one in Walgreens or a CVS or someplace like that. 
They're at convenience stores, 7-Eleven, in your gift card display. 
But eventually the MetroCard vending machines will be replaced with Omni card vending machines. 
Okay. 
So let's say you go to that Walgreens or whatever. 
For safety, put it talking over your head and walk up to the man and hand him cash and say, please give me the Omni card quickly. 
And where's your identification there? 
It seems like you're getting something anonymously if you buy an Omni card using cash, correct? 
It is, but you can only buy Omni cards in small denominations. 
I think you can buy a $5 Omni card or a $10 Omni card or things like that. 
And that's not going to last you very long. 
And you're going to need to put more money on it. 
And with that, you need an Omni account. 
You can't do that in the subway system? 
You can't re-up down there? 
I think the plan is to have it possible to re-up at the stores that sell these things, which you could theoretically do with cash. 
But I don't know that that's in place yet. 
But I do know that walking into a store and buying something in this city usually means you're on several cameras anyway. 
I don't understand why you would lose the functionality in the subway system. 
Right now I have a MetroCard that has a certain amount on it. 
If I want to add to it, I go to a MetroCard machine, add money to it. 
Why would you lose that functionality with the Omni card? 
Or forcing you to go to a store or something like that? 
Because they haven't put in the machines for Omni cards yet. 
You will be able to use an Omni card vending machine to, I think, put money on it as well. 
But of course, these vending machines have cameras in them. 
And, you know, log everyone who even puts cash into them. 
There's a close-up shot of your face. 
Rob, everything has cameras. 
My credit card probably has a camera in it. 
Everything is watching you. 
There's no escaping that. 
But the question of being able to have the account at least, you know, on a credit card, you could buy 10 Omni cards, I would imagine, and hand them out to various people. 
And it's not attached to their real name that way. 
I imagine that's what crime syndicates are already planning. 
And people who are concerned with, you know, anonymity, Alex. 
Those people are probably still buying MetroCards right now while you still can. 
Oh, they still have subway tokens. 
But go ahead, Gila. 
I was going to say we're just taking buses with handfuls of quarters. 
Yeah, you can still do that. 
You can still do that for now. 
Okay. 
Kyle, go ahead. 
Well, I just think they're trying these systems out. 
And I know from experience, one of the other systems I have a card from, they, like, got rid of one system and had everybody - they forced everybody to migrate onto another system. 
And I went back and looked at the log to see if I could see any of my past trips, and it all started over. 
Oh, okay. 
Yeah. 
Interesting. 
So it's like I was never on the system. 
Wow. 
Because they had some new management site they wanted to implement. 
So, you know, all that logging, yeah, maybe when you're using it, of course, it's a lot more sensitive. 
But it may not be forever if they're still trying to figure out what the heck they're doing. 
So - and there should be, like, a lot more options, not just, like, funneling everybody into this kind of really limited stuff. 
Another option, hop the turnstile. 
You can still do that. 
Although they'll probably watch you on camera when you do that as well. 
That is still really dangerous. 
So, like - Dangerous how? 
You trip over the metal bar? 
It's dangerous. 
So, you know. 
Okay, yeah, I guess it is. 
You have to stay in shape. 
Make sure - yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Alex Sanguila. 
I think part of the issue with the LinkNYC kiosk, placing payphones, this lack of anonymity stems from not just the fact that the cameras are there, right? 
I mean, if you think for a second and say, all right, well, you know, some crafty listeners, I'm sure, were thinking, well, if you went into a payphone, the chances are that you would be caught, let's say, on a public street on some kind of CCTV system that belonged to, let's say, you know, a bodega or a chain store or some kind of outward-facing camera or some of that, and that if you went to go make some kind of anonymous call, in all likelihood, you'll be on camera somewhere walking there or coming back from that particular payphone kiosk. 
But I think the issue with respect to the erosion of our privacy rights derives not from the fact that you're on camera itself, but from the very fact of the centralization of all of this data into the hands of one party. 
Right. 
And that's LinkNYC, right? 
So that means that if you go and you make that phone call and they want to know who made that phone call or what did that person look like who made that phone call, they don't have to go to a court and get a court-authorized subpoena and then serve that subpoena, let's say, on a business owner who then has to collect the data, who may or may not have that data. 
By that time, it might have been erased or re-recorded or might not have been saving anyhow. 
But the data is right there at the hands of LinkNYC or Sidewalk Labs, whoever the hell it is that's running these things, has a massive amount of information about what people are doing, where they are going, the networks to which they're attached. 
You know, their privacy policies haven't been the greatest in the past. 
And in fact, I think, you know, one of our own who spoke at Hope, I guess it was the last time, and I think the prior Hope before that, but our buddy Charlie had found some really interesting stuff with respect to Sidewalk Labs and GitHub that indicated that they were looking into using something called the K-Means algorithm to measure the distance that people were to these particular kiosks. 
You know, that's generally what this K-Means algorithm would have done, and he did find some indications of this on GitHub. 
And in fact, I believe The Intercept wrote a story about this a couple of years ago. 
Maybe we could re-link to that via the Hacker Radio Show Twitter account after the fact, just to remind listeners of some of the stuff we were up to years ago. 
Go ahead, Gila. 
Oh, I was just going to say, if you're jumping kiosks, where are you? 
Because a lot of them now have the tall turnstiles, the gate turnstile that you can't jump. 
Yeah. 
So I was just curious where you're jumping turnstiles, because a lot of the ones I deal with are not jumpable. 
Okay. 
This is not for spreading around, but basically, you know, the exit doors, you know, alarm will sound, that kind of thing. 
You need somebody on the inside, obviously, that will hold it open for you, and you just kind of slip in there, you know, no hopping involved. 
And that's good if you're not in the best of shape. 
Just saying. 
All right. 
We don't advocate that, but that's true. 
Okay. 
You know, we always have these spirited conversations about mass transit, and they get a lot of listener response. 
But we are going to move on. 
Does anyone else have any final words on this? 
No? 
Okay. 
Here's a letter that we got, and it was, well, it was unsigned. 
There was an email address, but I'm not going to read the name on the email address. 
But if somebody doesn't sign their email, we're not going to read your name. 
I feel compelled to write just to articulate my appreciation of your decision to suggest that attendees of the HOPE Conference not wear MAGA paraphernalia. 
A long-time listener, I've always admired the political positions you've taken, however unpopular amongst some of your listeners. 
In my humble opinion, those who took your suggestion as an affront to their freedoms are more concerned with the political posturing of discord and division. 
Neither I believe is the intent of the HOPE Conference to begin with. 
During the last show, you said 90%. 
This is actually in overtime we talked about this. 
The last show, we said 90% of the communication we received was against this suggestion. 
And I want you to know there are listeners out there who agree with you 100%. 
Tell Alex I appreciate his humor, and I find him hilarious at times. 
You see, the thing is, he's not trying to be hilarious. 
It's just sort of, okay. 
It's a condition. 
He falls into it. 
It does. 
It's, yeah, pratfalls and all. 
You guys are great. 
Thank you for all you do. 
My Wednesdays are not the same when Off the Hook is preempted. 
So we're sorry for last Wednesday when we were preempted. 
And yes, you know, we have gotten a lot of positive feedback. 
I guess, you know, the negative feedback is just louder, which is kind of a parallel to what's going on in the country. 
You think there are so many people out there that are unreasonable, and there really aren't that many people who are completely unreasonable. 
Just a lot of loud people keep saying the same things over and over again. 
And all we're saying in this particular case is that we don't want people to be basically creating uncomfortable situations, and that is exactly what will happen if you walk around wearing a MAGA hat in this area, in New York City, at our conference. 
Because it's just going to cause issues and problems. 
Believe whatever you want, you know, be conservative, be Republican, be pro-Trump. 
But when you push it in people's faces, you're going to get a reaction. 
And then that's what it becomes. 
It becomes all about that. 
If it's so important to you that you have to walk around wearing that hat all the time, don't think you're going to have very much fun at Hope. 
And we certainly won't having to worry about you. 
So it's, you know, it's a simple request, and I think most people get it. 
And I guess we all agree. 
Okay, good. 
So we basically had our deadline yesterday for speaker submissions, workshop submissions, panel discussion submissions for the conference coming up in July, July 22nd through 24th. 
Now, yeah, the 31st was the deadline. 
I've already heard some heartbreaking stories about why people missed the deadline. 
Look, if you missed the deadline and you have a good reason, you know, coming out of a coma or, you know, just at the end of a kidnapping negotiation, various reasons. 
There's all sorts of reasons. 
Let us know the reason. 
We'll take it into consideration. 
You're still going to be at the bottom of the list because there are the people ahead of you who did meet the deadline. 
But, you know, we will listen. 
Within reason. 
So you can still look at the call for participation, which is on the Hope.net website. 
And that'll be pretty awesome when we get everything together. 
Now, I know we've had all kinds of developments as well. 
The hotels are almost sold out from what I hear. 
And we've added a bunch of hotels. 
Go to the website and you'll see what they are that just basically have regular cheap-ass rates. 
Right? 
That's what we're going for, the cheap-ass rates in Queens. 
And they're all within a couple of miles of the convention. 
So they're easy to get to. 
Uber, Lyft, taxi. 
Remember taxis? 
You can even walk. 
It's not that big. 
Or bicycle. 
All sorts of things you can do. 
And, you know, if you want to stay in Manhattan, you can do that and take the LIRR out to St. 
John's. 
It doesn't take very long at all. 
All kinds of options. 
A million options. 
The website has a day's worth of reading as to all the ways that you can do this if you choose to. 
Gila, do you have anything more to add to this? 
No, I mean, I think that's very important to keep in mind. 
We are going to be providing information about points of interest in the local neighborhood, things you can do, ways to get around, how to get from the various hotels to each other, and how to get from the various hotels to St. 
John's, things you can see, things you can do. 
And the thing we're really trying to remind everybody this year is if you want to stay at one of the hotels here, that's great. 
If you want to stay somewhere else in the city, getting to St. 
John's, literally, there are 15 ways to get to St. 
John's that are all on the website, and that's not even talking about if you have a car. 
One of the best things we can tell you is that if you have a car, driving in New York can be fun, but we have the biggest headache about driving in New York is finding a place to put your car. 
And we've got a ton of free parking at St. 
John's, so if you're coming to Hope and you want to drive, this might be the right time to do it. 
And we're going to link to the St. 
John's website where they give you driving instructions from all directions, literally all directions. 
The only thing we can't help you with is teleportation. 
Everything else is possible. 
Everything else is welcome. 
And wherever you want to stay, we've got a spot for you. 
So check it out at Hope.net. 
And the teleportation thing is not finished yet. 
We're still working on it. 
Right. 
We just don't have a way to write up instructions for it yet. 
But anything could change between now and July 22nd. 
Alex, did you just want to add? 
I think the transportation thing is one issue. 
But, you know, this is going to be a conference that burns so brightly. 
I think there'll be some kind of starburst-type pattern emanating from Queens. 
You should just be able to follow the light. 
Okay. 
Well, I hope that works out. 
Now, Kyle, I actually wanted to bring this up with you because talking about vehicles and things like that, we're actually asking people to bring their cool hacker vehicles. 
Now, we have the 2600 van, which is an old phone company van that we repainted, and it's well-known throughout the hacker community. 
But there are other hacker vehicles as well. 
And we have outdoor space that we can use to display these particular vehicles. 
So if you have an idea for a hacker vehicle, if you have a hacker vehicle, we want you to write to us. 
I can write to hope at hope.net and give us the details there. 
You can write to us here at the radio show, OTH at 2600.com. 
But if you have something that is of particular interest to the hacker community that you'd like to show off, here's an opportunity. 
We never could do this in Manhattan. 
The best we can do, we circle the block in the 2600 van. 
And God forbid we parked it for five minutes, we'd get a ticket immediately. 
So this is very different, and we'll have the ability to be outside and see these displays. 
But we want to see what else people have out there. 
Absolutely. 
This fits with so many of the fixing and DIY culture, the people that make and build things. 
They're always taking apart things. 
And we know along the lines of cellular and all kinds of new communications technologies, it's just made being mobile that much easier. 
And what comes with that, I think, is a lot of vehicles, vehicles of all kinds, and they're becoming more complex. 
We've talked about it a lot on the show. 
And we want to showcase and demonstrate and give an opportunity that people might not ordinarily get to focus on their project, focus on different modes of transportation, whatever it is out there. 
We know people are working on it, and it is an interesting and evolving area of hacking. 
So we want to invite that and promote more right-to-repair awareness and really discuss how people can own modern vehicles that are ever more complex. 
Go ahead, Rob. 
Okay. 
Just to drift off topic for a brief moment, we were talking about the LinkNYC kiosks and their lack of privacy. 
Our friend Pyro, friend of the show, let us know over Twitter that they do have a 3.5-millimeter audio jack on all the LinkNYC kiosks, but that does also require that you be carrying around an earbud or a headphone or something that can plug into that in order to gain your privacy. 
Anyway, back to Hope. 
Yes, back to Hope. 
I see. 
Yes, so bring your hands-free systems. 
If you have a vehicle, tell us about what you're doing with communications equipment or radios or war driving is still a thing. 
It used to be a thing with hackers. 
I mean, maybe there's stuff that people are doing with radio in their vehicles or who knows, robotics, all this kind of cool stuff. 
We hear about it. 
We talk about it. 
We want to show it off. 
We want to let you share with other hackers, and maybe you'll get some ideas. 
Maybe it'll inspire some other people. 
And this is new stuff that we haven't done before because we didn't have the kind of space that we have now. 
So we're just basically thinking outside the box, coming up with new ideas, and seeing what develops. 
Maybe the 2600 van will be the only cool vehicle there. 
But I'd like to think that we can get, you know, half a dozen, maybe even more, just to be showing off. 
There's all kinds of possibilities in the hacker community. 
So, okay, so we have new hotels. 
We have the speaker deadline. 
Also, we have on-campus housing, too, if people want to stay on campus. 
There's a whole blurb about that on the Hope.net website. 
There are some interesting rules that you have to follow if you stay on campus, but that's part of dormitory living, I suppose. 
Yes, Gila, go ahead. 
The thing I was going to say is that, yes, there are a lot of things to keep in mind. 
And this is a new and fun and exciting learning experience for us because we're moving from a massive event hotel where everybody could fit and there was no question to a slightly more decentralized kind of situation. 
The fact is that the facility of the 2,000-room hotel just doesn't exist. 
So we're learning a lot as we go this year, and we invite you to come and be a part of it and find out what works best. 
Come and join us. 
Be part of this new revolution in hope. 
Plus, the fact is people really couldn't fit in the space that we had previously, and we're a lot more spread out than now, so that will be a lot more comfortable. 
Okay, also, I forgot this. 
We have an announcement, a keynoter, Sophie Zhang, Facebook whistleblower. 
She'll be keynoting at the Hope Conference. 
And she became a whistleblower after spending almost three years at Facebook trying to fix the company from within. 
All kinds of stories. 
She's going to be interviewed by Yan Zhu, who talked to Chelsea Manning at our 2018 conference. 
So that's going to be fascinating. 
But there are so many other speakers. 
We're posting some of them now on our website, the Hope.net website. 
But we'll be posting more as we wade through the ones that have come in prior to the deadline. 
So all sorts of things are happening. 
Keep checking the Hope.net website for updates on that. 
It's going to be fun. 
Only about seven weeks away, I believe. 
It really crept up on us, didn't it? 
But behind the scenes, we are doing so much to wrangle every last detail of this we can. 
And, you know, as a member of the speaker committee, I'm impressed with the stuff we've got. 
We've gotten some really good stuff that I'm very excited about putting on our stages. 
And just the sheer creativity that we're going to see at Hope and have to perform on the fly to make this happen. 
As the rest of you have said, this is going to be a first for us as well. 
And we're all learning along the way. 
And one thing we didn't mention is that the conference is also virtual. 
So if you don't want to come here in person, deal with the hotels, the driving, and everything else, you still will be able to experience the virtual aspect of Hope. 
The information for that is at Hope.net as well. 
And that goes for speakers as well. 
We do have a number of virtual speakers. 
The majority are in person, but, yeah, we're doing a little bit of both as it is kind of a transition back to normalcy that hopefully we stick around in. 
Yes, Alex. 
Is there going to be, for this Hope, the same type of chat server for the attendees? 
Are you going to be using the same kind of matrix server? 
That was such a hugely popular innovation during 2020, and I think it really engendered a sensitive community that lasted well beyond the conference. 
Well, as a matter of fact, Alex, we are reconstituting it and going to be probably, I think, updating, but maybe using it in basically the same way, but perhaps to a lesser degree, of course, because so many people will be joining us in Queens, and it will at least be there as a communications mode. 
But that's amidst all that planning that Rob mentioned. 
So absolutely, we're going to try to reimplement that and make it available so that those that are not physically present can still have that presence, because we found it worked out fairly well, and I think a lot of other people found it useful for getting information and augmenting other resources like our wiki and newsletters and so forth. 
Okay, very quickly, because we are running out of time, this happened fairly recently. 
It happened yesterday, I think. 
The Supreme Court of the United States temporarily blocked that sweeping Texas law that restricts the ability of Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube to moderate content on their platforms. 
It did this yesterday, five to four vote. 
They granted an emergency request from the tech industry to block a lower court order that would have allowed the law to take hold. 
Alex, what does this mean? 
It means I need to get better at removing my mute button more expeditiously, I think. 
When you just call me like that, put me on the spot. 
Tick-tock. 
Time's running out. 
It means that we were exactly right about this when we called out these particular laws over the last two weeks, because what those laws completely neglect is the fact that corporations have what we consider to be a legal fiction of personhood, and those corporations themselves also have rights guaranteed under the First Amendment, namely the freedom of speech. 
And so what the Supreme Court had acknowledged in making sure these laws do not take effect during the pendency of the litigation, namely the appeal, is a recognition that, yes, in fact, this does very much implicate the First Amendment rights of corporations. 
If you force them to publish things that they decide they themselves do not want to publish, that's an infringement on the First Amendment rights of a corporation. 
And being a private party and having the government come in and tell you that you need to allow certain information, content that may violate your community standards, content that may be anti-Semitic or against your particular views as a corporation, you don't necessarily have to do that. 
But, I mean, this is a battle that's far from over, and I think we're seeing more and more states, again, performatively enact legislation that on its face does not pass the smell test constitutionally. 
I don't think this is at all over, but I think we should certainly watch to see how this appeal plays out in the court. 
And what was terrifying to me was that this was really a five-to-four decision, and the dissenters believed and wrote, I believe in their dissent, that certain platforms have this public sphere component, and we should consider, as Clarence Thomas noted last year in one of his opinions, that really was kind of a bizarre opinion, that companies like Twitter and E-Flatroom should be considered to be something akin to public utilities and regulated like telephone companies. 
So that's the push and pull on the court, and it was a five-four decision. 
So this is certainly not over. 
We have to watch this and care for it. 
So you mentioned a five-four decision. 
And the dissenters were, as you mentioned, Clarence Thomas, but also Neil Gorsuch, Samuel Alito. 
Can I guess who number four was? 
It was Sotomayor or Kagan. 
It was Liberal Justice Elena Kagan. 
Kagan, that's right. 
Okay, can you explain the logic there? 
I don't think it's about political persuasion. 
It's about legal arguments here. 
And I think the fact that you had conservatives in the majority here speaks volumes about the nature of the judiciary and the whole reason why that they are appointed for life. 
They're supposed to be apolitical. 
I would like to see more liberal justices joining with more conservative justices and considering the issues rationally without regard to politics. 
I see this really as a good thing, not necessarily a bad thing. 
Yeah, well, it's kind of a strange thing because, you know, you had Brett Kavanaugh. 
You had Amy Coney Barrett basically voting in favor of the emergency request against Texas. 
And then you have Leslie Kagan voting against it. 
So, yeah, it doesn't seem to be political. 
Certainly. 
I mean, one could be more in favor of regulation. 
The conservatives may be concerned about the proverbial slippery slope here. 
If you start eroding constitutional rights of corporations, you may begin to erode the rights of corporations under a case law like Citizens United, you know, which allows corporations to make certain types of political donations, I think, protected by the First Amendment. 
So those types of implications certainly come into play and maybe were thought of. 
All right. 
We're going to have to leave it there. 
We are out of time. 
We will be starting up over time, though, on our YouTube channel. 
Our YouTube channel is called Channel 2600. 
That's the number 2600. 
No spaces. 
Or you can just click on the link that's on top of the 2600.com webpage. 
Write to us, OTH at 2600.com. 
And please don't forget to support WBAI, this terrific radio station that enables all of this speech to go out unfettered over the airwaves. 
Give to WBAI.org, give the number to WBAI.org, or call 212-209-2950 with your generous pledge. 
We will see you back here again next week and in a few minutes on Overtime. 
Good night. 


Okay, here we are on overtime and hopefully a steady connection. 
I'm having a little bit of issues with the stream here. 
Please let us know if you're having any kind of difficulty. 
Kyle, I see you made it safely. 
Yeah, yeah, I'm here. 
I'm with you. 
And Alex, I see you. 
I am here. 
Gila, I see you front and center. 
I'm also here. 
And I don't see Rob. 
No, Rob unfortunately has been called away on an urgent matter and will not be joining us for overtime. 
I see. 
Okay, all right. 
Well, I hope that works out. 
We all do. 
Okay, so good discussion. 
Of course, our phone number is open as always. 
You want to give out the phone number at the beginning this time because people always call it before we give it out and this time maybe we can beat the rush. 
What do you think, Kyle? 
Yeah. 
Okay, ringers on? 
Hold on. 
Nobody's connected? 
All right, I'm ready. 
I have all the tools to do that now. 
802-321-4225. 
That's 802-321-HACK. 
That's our telephone number. 
You can call us and converse and give us your thoughts, feelings, feedback, ideas, all sorts of things like that. 
Yeah, because we run out of things to say apparently. 
It takes a little while to permeate. 
People have to get their dialing fingers stretched and everything. 
I didn't know it was raining. 
It's raining outside. 
Yeah, there's a lot of weather coming through. 
Wow. 
I believe that would be our first call. 
Sounds like a call coming in. 
Yeah, all right. 
Let me see if it's a real call. 
Don't go crazy. 
Real call? 
It sounds like a real call. 
Yeah, I think it is a real call. 
Yeah, all right. 
Well, then pick it up like you would a real call. 
I dare to. 
All right. 
And good evening. 
You're on Off the Hook Overtime. 
Client manual calling from Turkey. 
Okay, Rebel, we know you're not in Turkey. 
I was hoping you'd make it to the Union Square subway station maybe and tell us something about the payphones in there. 
I was, you know, the payphone, there was a payphone at the Rockefeller Center station and it's still working. 
It's one payphone. 
There used to be three payphones at the Rockefeller Center where you go between, at the F train, you go between like the buildings, like these little hallways between the buildings at Rockefeller Center. 
There's one payphone working. 
There used to be like three or four, but they took them all out except for one and it's still working. 
So let me ask you because you might know the answer to this. 
Who is operating that payphone? 
You know, it is not Verizon, obviously, but, you know, I'll have to look and I'll have to, it's a private company. 
You will have to, Rebel, because we expect you to do this. 
We expect you to know this. 
Right. 
And when I, when I, um, I was gonna tell you, um... 
No, I don't. 
I have no idea what you're gonna tell me. 
Oh, when I was on a website, that's a thing. 
Somebody called me and I'm in Poland, yesterday, you know, I was just in Poland. 
Wait, wait, wait, hold on a sec. 
Are you really in Turkey? 
I'm in Turkey, the country Turkey. 
Yeah, as opposed to what, the bird Turkey? 
Yeah, obviously you're in the... 
So wait a minute. 
It's just that you sound better when you're in New York. 
I don't understand that, but you're gonna have to tell us something that, that confirms that you are in fact in Turkey. 
So what, what could that be? 
I don't know. 
Do you want me to have you, somebody speak Turkish or something? 
I don't know. 
I don't know. 
Hold on. 
Wait a minute. 
Yeah, the caller, the caller ID, um, uh, Rebel, the caller ID says you're in Hackensack. 
So, um, I'm a little, uh, concerned about your truth telling. 
You know what? 
Okay, but because I'm using Google Voice, that's why. 
Hang on, Alex. 
What's that? 
What's that, Rebel? 
I'm using Google Voice. 
That's why it says my Google Voice number, the 201 number. 
Blaming Google again. 
Alex, go ahead. 
I, I can speak some Turkish, so tell them to put somebody on the phone. 
Wait a minute. 
You can speak Russian, you can speak Italian, you can speak a little English, but now you, you claim to speak Turkish as well. 
The other thing I want to tell you is somebody called me from the United States. 
I got a call from Greece. 
The country code was like 3-0, and it was Greece, and I said hello, and they said, hello, um, is this Richard? 
Yes. 
Would you like, be interested in, and they were asking, they were trying to sell me, like, investment things. 
I said, no, I don't want to go buy something in Greece. 
I said, no, I'm not in Greece, I'm in Long Island. 
I hung up, I called the number in Greece, and some Greek person answered. 
What do you expect? 
You call a number in Greece, some Greek person's gonna answer. 
That's what happens. 
But how did that happen? 
Like, somebody in New York called me from wherever, and they showed up as a number in Greece. 
It's probably, it's probably a random number that they just keyed in someplace, and that poor Greek person is, is confused to this moment as to why you called him or her. 
Right, but why didn't it say the network ID of, you know, that person at 516? 
It's called a disguise. 
They're basically putting in random numbers. 
Sometimes they put in numbers that, that are similar to your number. 
A random number from Greece? 
I mean, well, maybe, maybe it wasn't supposed to be Greece. 
Maybe they thought it would be an area code, and, and, and, you know, a slip digit made it appear to be a country code instead of an area code. 
Who knows? 
But it's probably not some telemarketer in Greece trying to sell you something on Long Island. 
Right. 
That was interesting that that happened today that I'm in Turkey. 
Hi, Rebel, do you have, do you have anybody on the phone there that I can talk to? 
Yeah, hold on. 
Let me, um, let me get you the hotel. 
I mean, I, I really have to sleep tonight because I want to see Istanbul. 
Tomorrow I'm visiting Istanbul. 
I mean... 
Emmanuel? 
Yes, go ahead. 
Um, yeah, tomorrow I'm visiting Istanbul, but I want to spend the day in Istanbul, but I mean, like, it's three o'clock in the morning here, and I'm... 
Istanbul is in Turkey. 
He must know what he's talking about. 
I'm gonna be touring Istanbul tomorrow. 
How would he know Istanbul is in Turkey unless he was in Turkey, right? 
Okay. 
No, we're starting to believe you, Rebel. 
I know it's three o'clock in the morning in Iran. 
But you're not in either of those countries, so, and plus Iran is on a half-hour difference, so... 
Yeah, I know Iran is on, yeah, I know they do that, but like in Dubai, it's three o'clock, in Dubai it's four o'clock in the morning. 
What could we ask him to prove that he's in Turkey? 
Um, what is... 
Put someone on the phone, I'll talk to them. 
No, but, is there somebody there that will talk Turkish to us? 
Boy, that sounds good. 
Uh, sure. 
Hold on. 
Um, how do you say this radio show in New York in the United States? 
Say it in Turkish. 
Too bad my cab driver wasn't here, he would, uh, speak Turkish. 
Yeah, just, just, just put him on the phone. 
They really are looking at us like we're a retard. 
Okay, Rebel. 
I know you're, I know you're from Queens, but, um, try to keep up with, uh, with the years. 
Uh, yeah, I, I, I, I want to believe him. 
Uh, okay, how did you get to Turkey? 
Let's, let's, let's try that. 
Uh, how did I get to Turkey? 
I took, from Poland, I took a lot of Polish airlines from New York City to Poland, and then from Poland, I stayed in Poland like three, three days, and then I took Turkish airlines from Warsaw, Poland, uh, which I like Warsaw, um, Warsaw, Poland to, uh, to Turkey, to Istanbul. 
Okay, well, let's, let's start with Warsaw, then. 
Um, did you see the ugliest building in the city? 
Yeah, I did, actually. 
And what was that building like? 
Can you describe it to us? 
Uh, well, some of the windows were boarded up, and it looked very Soviet kind of style. 
Okay. 
And how, how tall was it? 
Oh, I don't know. 
I don't remember. 
Um, I can send you a video. 
Was it, was it, was it three stories tall, or was it? 
I don't remember. 
I think as I passed it, I was, I can send you a video of me, because I've been taking pictures and videos and stuff. 
Yeah, yeah, those couldn't be faked. 
Um, what do you think, Kyle? 
Should we believe him? 
I feel like we have trust issues with Rebel, and it's a, it's deep. 
Rebel, why don't you go and say this to somebody. 
Say, Arkadash Telefondatky. 
You're just showing off, Alex. 
And he's going to get a fat lip because of something you tell him to say. 
Oh, I would hardly get, uh, Rebel in trouble. 
Then there'll be an international incident of one sort or another, and then you have one less country in NATO. 
I'm, I'm presuming we're still, uh, FCC regulated, even in Turkey, so don't, don't worry about me. 
We're not even on the radio, so no, we're not FCC regulated. 
Exactly. 
I'm just operating with an abundance of caution here to say, tell somebody Arkadash or Arkadashin, which would be my friend, Telefondatky, on the phone. 
Yeah, I don't, I don't think he's going to do that. 
I wouldn't do that. 
You wouldn't trust me? 
Hey, Rebel, tell us something about, um, uh, have you, have you seen, um, um, the telephone number format? 
How many numbers, how many digits are in a telephone number? 
No, I don't know. 
You mean where? 
In Turkey? 
Yeah, in Turkey, where you are now. 
Um, you know what? 
I'll go check. 
Okay. 
I don't know what he's checking. 
Is there a payphone? 
Or is he, is he going to, going to some private area to look at somebody's phone? 
And don't tell us the phone number. 
Okay. 
No, I'm not telling you the phone number. 
Uh, the country code is nine zero. 
The country code is not nine zero. 
I don't think that's true. 
I thought it was nine zero. 
Is the country code in Turkey nine? 
That's nine zero. 
Hang on, hang on, hang on. 
I could be wrong about that. 
And the city code in Istanbul? 
He's right. 
It is nine zero. 
I did not know that. 
I figured, you know, the zero would make it special. 
Two one two. 
Guess what the area code here is? 
Two one two? 
Wow. 
Hang on, hang on. 
And what, what city are you in? 
Istanbul. 
Istanbul. 
It's two one two. 
Okay. 
You know what? 
I'm cashing my vote now. 
I think Rebel is in Turkey. 
So now the next question is why are you in Turkey? 
What's your, what are you doing? 
I'm, I'm touring, just touring countries. 
Okay. 
How are you getting around? 
Uh, well, I'm, I have now rented quite a bit and taken the Metro and things like that. 
Mm-hmm. 
Okay. 
That's good. 
And where are you going after Turkey? 
Um, Russia. 
Wait, I thought we agreed you weren't going to do that. 
Well, I had to come to Turkey to get to Russia. 
Oh, this is not a good idea. 
Did you actually get a visa? 
I didn't. 
That's the thing. 
I thought I was not going to be able to. 
I thought they weren't giving visas to U.S. 
citizens, but I inquired and yes, they are giving visas to U.S. 
citizens. 
I mean, I got one and I went through, you know, hoops to get one and I got the currency and, you know, all that. 
So you actually have a visa and your passport for Russia? 
Yeah. 
Okay. 
Uh, Alex, any advice? 
Um, yeah, I would say, you know, be really careful. 
Um, you know, try to blend in and, uh, definitely, you know, stay out of Turkey. 
How is Rebel going to blend in in Russia? 
How do you propose he do that? 
Um, you know, I think he can, yeah, blend in almost anywhere. 
I remember what Rebel looks like from many years ago and I think he would fit right in in Russia. 
It's not what he looks like that is a concern. 
It's the kinds of things he might bring up, you know. 
He's a very honest person. 
He says what's on his mind. 
And he'll tell you if your telephone is inadequate, for one thing. 
That's true. 
And people there might not want to hear that. 
And also, being an American, that also might be a disadvantage at this time. 
Yeah, well, that's it. 
I think being an American over there, you've got to be really careful. 
I also think, you know, be very careful about what you say, to whom you say it, and whether or not you are publicly criticizing what's happening in Ukraine right now. 
Yeah, I know, you know, because I'm a guest in their country, so of course I'm not going to, you know. 
Yeah, you're a seasoned traveler. 
You know the rules. 
It's good to have people that will look out for you over there. 
Do you have any contacts? 
Well, there's a person on YouTube that does languages and stuff. 
And I emailed her, and she said that maybe when you get to Moscow, contact me, you know. 
Okay, that's not the best kind of contact, but, you know. 
Somebody who knows the language and, you know. 
There are people, we do have one 2600 meeting still running in Russia. 
Maybe tweet at them. 
And I know Moscow has suspended their meetings temporarily, I hope. 
But you're on Twitter, right? 
I'm not on Twitter, actually. 
I'm on Facebook. 
Well, get on Twitter. 
It's not hard to do. 
And simply send them a message. 
Maybe they can hook you up with some people. 
Yeah, but I've got to have an account for Twitter, an account for Facebook, an account for Instagram. 
This is not the time to complain about how many accounts you have. 
I'm trying to help you out here as far as getting connected to somebody in the area who knows the ins and outs and can be a friend to you. 
So, that's what I would suggest. 
All right, well, the 2600 meeting is now, let me see, Friday. 
Oh, yeah, it's going to be this Friday. 
Where will I be doing this? 
I'll be, like, settling in then. 
Maybe I will be. 
There aren't 2600 meetings in Moscow at this time. 
Hang on, I'll find the name of the city that does have them. 
Well, I'm only going to be in Moscow. 
That's the only place I can go. 
Okay, well, then, you're not going to a 2600 meeting. 
But that doesn't mean you can't contact the people who are part of those meetings that aren't happening. 
Right. 
Well, in Poland, I did talk to somebody at the laundromat in Warsaw, Poland. 
He was from Russia, and he... 
Again, these aren't the kinds of contacts that are really going to be of much help to you. 
Talking to somebody in a laundromat is pleasant, but, yeah. 
Well, he's from Siberia. 
Okay, well, that's certainly interesting. 
The Twitter handle of the people running Moscow 2600 is, not surprisingly, Moscow 2600. 
So, if you're able to break down and get a Twitter account and you send them a message, Moscow 2600, maybe they have somebody that can meet you over there, that can show you around, that can help you out. 
Again, I don't know. 
That might be the last thing they want to do. 
But it's something. 
I emailed you a picture of something, I think. 
Is it a pay phone? 
I think I emailed you the link of the pay phones not being in New York City anymore. 
But you know that that one in Rockefeller Center is working. 
I should actually take a picture of it and send that to you. 
Yes, when you're back in town. 
Definitely do that. 
I did not see any pay phone in Warsaw, Poland. 
What's going on with your... 
Was your mouth full or something? 
No, I'm having dinner. 
Well, it's very rude to talk on the phone while you're having dinner. 
The people around you must be very upset. 
People around? 
It's 3 o'clock in the morning here. 
And it's also rude to have dinner at 3 o'clock in the morning. 
Poland's from another country. 
Wait, why are you still? 
You're in Turkey and you're on New York Time. 
That's kind of strange. 
I know. 
I mean, it's such, you know... 
Oh, it's because of us. 
It's because of us. 
It's our fault. 
Yeah, you're listening to us... 
This is like Bobson, except he's a lot more lively, I guess, being on New York Time. 
Whereas Bobson is on Bulgarian Time, which is 3 in the morning. 
Oh, he's not on. 
He didn't call. 
Not yet, because... 
Oh, I flew over Bulgaria. 
Okay, I'm sure that excited everybody over there. 
Guys, Gila, Alex, any questions for Rebel? 
It's 3 in the morning. 
He can't stay on much longer. 
Right. 
So, Rebel, have you tried... 
Rebel, you have to stop talking when other people are talking. 
Go ahead, Alex. 
Have you tried any of the Turkish ice cream yet? 
What is it with you and desserts? 
No, that I'll do tomorrow. 
I'm sure it's not as good as Carvel. 
No product placement, please. 
But is there a Turkish dessert place near you now, Alex? 
I mean, I'm in Manhattan. 
We're never too far from it. 
Oh, that's true. 
A place that serves Turkish delight, right? 
Yeah, I'm not in Pennsylvania tonight. 
I'm in Manhattan. 
But the Turkish ice cream, real Turkish ice cream, is very interesting. 
It's a lot different because it's really elastic-y. 
It's very stringy. 
And the ice cream vendors can do lots of interesting tricks with Turkish ice cream. 
You don't mean Turkish taffy, do you? 
No, Turkish ice cream. 
Okay, because that's elastic-y, too. 
Turkish ice cream. 
I traveled around Turkey. 
God, it was a long time ago. 
But I loved it. 
I thought it was an absolutely beautiful country. 
Wonderful people. 
Food was fantastic. 
Amazing amount of culture, history. 
And I just had a lot of fun. 
I think Istanbul is, to this day, one of my favorite cities. 
Can I ask you, Rebel, are you in Europe or Asia? 
The European side. 
But you can literally walk to Asia in Istanbul, can you not? 
Well, it's not really Asia. 
It's more the Middle East. 
Because I know it's like a thousand miles to the actual Middle East. 
Okay, but legally, it's Asia. 
I wouldn't stand on ceremony. 
No, Asia's in China. 
You can walk across a damn bridge and be in Asia. 
I suggest you do it. 
Yeah, I'm going to be in the Middle East. 
If you cross the Bosporus River, you're technically on the continent of Asia. 
Yeah. 
How many times can you say that? 
Well, you have to do it first, Rebel. 
You'll probably be on the continent in the Middle East. 
I'm on the Eastern European side. 
You know, great minds have said over the centuries that all you have to do to get to Asia is cross that bridge. 
So I would not refute them. 
Just go ahead and do it. 
Something else you can say that you did. 
Yeah. 
Any other final words from you? 
I could take the metro there, too. 
Next week at this time, will you be in Russia? 
Yes, I will be in Russia. 
Okay, well, be sure to call us then. 
We'd like to know how you're doing. 
Because, wow, that's something. 
That's an interesting trip. 
I'd love to go there, too. 
I really would. 
I always have fun in Russia. 
Haven't you been to Moscow? 
I thought you've been there. 
Yes, I've been there a couple of times. 
And I took the Trans-Siberian Express. 
Oh, yeah, that's right. 
I remember. 
That's right. 
You did. 
And, you know, going to a place, it's really not enough to just see it in a picture, watch a video, see it on, like, Google, whatever. 
You really have to be there in person, seeing it in person. 
You really do. 
No, I agree. 
Although, in this day and age, you're able to find a YouTube video that is an entire train ride, walking through streets of some city. 
So if you can't make it over there, it's a damn good substitute that you're able to experience these things through other people's eyes. 
But it's really not, there's no substitute for really actually doing it, being there, and looking for yourself, you know? 
Yeah, unless you can't do it, in which case you need a substitute. 
And that's a pretty good substitute that we never had before. 
It's just like working from home. 
You know, you can work from home, but you really have to be there, shaking people's hands, and meeting people face to face. 
You know, people don't, like, travel anymore. 
Like, they don't go to, like, business meetings. 
They just do it on, like, you know, virtually. 
But it's really, it's nice to do that, but that's if we have that. 
But it's really no substitute for actually being there, shaking a person's hand in person, looking at them face to face, and, you know. 
I'm just trying to picture all that. 
Yes, but yeah, you're right, there's no substitute. 
There's no substitute. 
Okay, he's in Turkey, because people do smoke in Turkey. 
A lot of people smoke there. 
Is that what's happening? 
Yeah, there's a lot of cats in Turkey, I think. 
A lot of cats in Turkey. 
We're going to check that. 
We're going to check into that and make sure that's true. 
Yeah, that's what I hear. 
Rebel, it's 3.23 in the morning, I believe, your time. 
And you should get some sleep and start out fresh tomorrow. 
Let us know what happens. 
Yep. 
Okay. 
Good hearing from you. 
Take care. 
Okay, everyone. 
Bye-bye. 
You just couldn't resist, could you, Alex? 
And he was gone by the time you said that, anyway. 
Hopefully he heard. 
Rebel, I did not believe him when he said he was in Turkey. 
I thought he was yanking my chain. 
I thought so, too. 
All right, well, I was going to give out the phone number, but I guess I can't because it's already ringing. 
802-321-4225, that's our phone number. 
Do we have a connection, Kyle? 
Good evening, you're on Off the Hook Overtime. 
Hello. 
I can barely hear you. 
Okay, I keep hearing our audio is low. 
Is there anything we can do, Kyle, to fix that? 
Yeah, I'll work on that. 
Over the air, your audio dramatically improved at 10 after. 
It's a YouTube thing. 
Well, we didn't change anything at 10 after, either. 
Well, what came out changed, whether you did anything or not. 
But, obviously, I've turned off the sound coming through my computer to talk with you on the phone. 
And when you raised your voice louder, that worked. 
Okay, you know, I don't know what to say. 
If we're low, turn the volume up on the archive. 
We'll fix the levels. 
There's only so much we can do, you know, because we don't hear what you hear. 
We don't hear what you hear. 
We don't hear what you hear. 
We don't hear what you hear on this end. 
Well, I'm just reporting for your information. 
We only increase the volume to accommodate this issue once per show. 
Is that true? 
Yeah, we've already done it once this show. 
It's a physical limitation that we have. 
Anyway, what's on your mind, besides our audio levels? 
Were you, by any chance, given a list of people who pledged for you in the past week in support of the unjust attacks on you? 
I have not been given any list of anybody, pro or con. 
And if I were given such a list, I would not accept it because I don't believe in prying eyes. 
Although sometimes we do thank people who pledge specifically to our show, but we don't get that list normally. 
You don't get that list what? 
We normally do not get that list. 
Oh. 
Because I was asked, did I wish to be thanked? 
So you ought to get the list. 
Well, we don't get the list. 
Someone might be thanking you, but it ain't us. 
Other than us saying thank you, you know, when we find out about it. 
But we don't get the list, so we don't have the ability to thank you. 
Yeah, we assume that everyone is contributing. 
So, it's implicit that we thank you because you are contributing. 
Okay, well, you should demand that they give you the list of people who you're supposed to thank on the air by name. 
Well, how about you say your name and we'll thank you. 
Okay. 
Eleanor Elizabeth Foreman. 
We don't have to give out your full name. 
We usually just do a first name and we get that. 
Oh, I want to give out my full name. 
Eleanor Elizabeth Foreman, thank you for your generous pledge. 
Yes, but we're not on the air at the moment. 
That's true too. 
We'll have to wait until next week. 
Wow. 
Okay, somebody write it down. 
We'll make sure we say it. 
But then it sounds like we only have one person contributing. 
Well, that's why you should be asking them to give you a complete accounting. 
Now I feel frustrated that we're not getting it. 
Exactly. 
I want to agree with the caller. 
I think that this was sort of a tradition that has fallen out of favor and it is a really great way to also show how much people support means to us. 
Yeah, but we used to be in the station and the phones would ring down the hallway and after the show we'd go down and say, oh, who pledged? 
And we'd get the names that way. 
We haven't done it that way in years. 
Even before the pandemic got stopped. 
That's the operational reason. 
We don't have the same proximity to Tally Room. 
Tally Room itself is disembodied to a degree. 
So there's differences in how we operate. 
But of course, if it's still on the form and they don't just like maybe annotate, put some first names and send it to us, maybe it shouldn't be on the form. 
So you raise a good point and apologies that we hadn't already thanked you the way you thought you would be thanked. 
It is absolutely not something we don't notice as far as contributions and how much enthusiasm we get during our fundraising hour. 
So we appreciate you regarding this. 
Well, I'm also trying to make a public statement and my belief that you should be supported against that dreaded FCC complaint. 
You know, the only time we hear about that is during overtime. 
We only hear about that when people tell us on overtime about the FCC complaint. 
But no one is saying anything to us outside of this one hour of the week. 
So I don't think it's a huge deal. 
If it is, we haven't heard about it yet. 
I think it's a very silly complaint. 
At least our involvement in it certainly is. 
Your involvement certainly is. 
Yeah, you know, other than laughing a bit, we haven't really devoted much attention to that. 
Unfortunately, it's going to cost the station in Pacifica thousands of dollars. 
No, that is unfortunate. 
It's an abuse of the system. 
I know. 
And it could even cost us our license. 
It's an outrage. 
Well, it's not going to cost us our license because I don't think the station did anything wrong. 
But it does tie up resources. 
Not with you, but some of the other complaints do stand up. 
Well, you know, I can't speak to that. 
I'm not really aware of what they are. 
But there are complaints. 
There are complaints about any station you can make. 
Is it enough to lose a license over? 
Very, very doubtful. 
I mean, some of the things I've heard radio stations get away with, other radio stations, would put this, you know, these would pale in comparison if these even are offenses of one sort or another. 
And again, I can't speak to that. 
I'm not aware of them. 
Well, I'm worried. 
Not until the lawyers tell me there's nothing to worry about. 
They never tell you there's nothing to worry about. 
Alex, tell me there's nothing to worry about. 
See, he can't do it. 
Can't do it. 
It's not in his DNA. 
It's not in his DNA to say there's nothing to worry about? 
Ask him. 
No, I'm constitutionally opposed to, you know, saying that. 
I mean, look, I think that it's frivolous, de minimis, all kinds of, you know, basically any way you can describe something that is, you know, not a major concern. 
But you never know how these regulators are going to look at things they're going to want to delve into. 
And it's also part of the reason why I think we don't want to give too much oxygen to this. 
I don't think it's a great idea to be discussing factual circumstances and things on this. 
It seems silly. 
I don't want to give it any more airtime if that makes sense. 
We addressed it. 
I think we addressed it pretty thoroughly. 
We should continue addressing it with the same people over and over again. 
I agree with Alex on that. 
I don't think avoiding it is the right thing to do, but we didn't avoid it. 
We addressed it. 
We should address other things and hopefully this is something that gets defeated. 
I'd like to encourage lots and lots of people to support off the hook while it's being attacked. 
Thank you for that. 
I agree. 
And WBAI as well, because we would not exist without WBAI. 
It's an important forum for so many people. 
We're very keenly aware of it and it's detraction from the other initiatives, the other needs of the station. 
Acute needs, as you're aware of as a supporter. 
I think there's a lot of symptoms here that really are misplaced in the true spirit of what WBAI is and what it is capable of becoming. 
We want to put our efforts into doing good radio and supporting the stations in the ways we have been and in the ways we know how. 
That really gives us the opportunity to have this kind of discussion and support other people. 
Have interested listeners yourself, keeping us aware. 
We appreciate everything you're hearing and your continuing support of us. 
That means the world. 
Can I just jump in here? 
I'm getting a YouTube error. 
I like people who are out there to tell me if there's a problem, saying we're not receiving enough video, and now it just went away. 
YouTube is so annoying. 
They flash these errors for a second and you can't read them in time. 
People might be experiencing buffering If you have low audio, if you have crappy signal, you can always listen to the archive that we post on our website, which is 2600.com. 
It seems to be running fine. 
YouTube is lying to me. 
2600.com slash OffTheHook, that's where all of our shows are kept. 
In fact, these people that were complaining about us, they used that site to make a transcript of the show, which I thought was hilarious. 
We keep them all online, and it's great. 
Anyway, anything else from you, Eleanor? 
Well, I think I reported, I don't know, did I report that my long distance has finally been the finger pointing between the two companies, I finally got them to talk to each other. 
This is breaking news for us, because we weren't on last week, so tell us how this got resolved, or if it got resolved. 
I kept insisting, instead of Company A telling me to call Company B, it's their fault, and Company B telling me to call Company A, it's their fault, and Company A saying everything is fine on our end, and Company B saying everything is fine on our end, I insisted, talk to each other, and I said it enough times that finally they did. 
Wow, that's impressive, and did it resolve? 
Yes. 
Terrific, wow, that is something, that is a victory. 
Thank you for... 
Yes, but it took more than a month, and I had to miss two WBAI Community Advisory Board meetings, because I couldn't make a long distance call to call into the meeting, and the meeting is only by phone, not by computer. 
Thank you for sharing with us, and for being an advocate for yourself. 
Yeah, absolutely. 
I'm sure you'll inspire many more people to do similar things like that. 
So, good job. 
Wow, I'm impressed. 
Are there any payphones in your area? 
There used to be a payphone right in front of my building, but it's gone, and it was useless for a long time before it was removed. 
Are you aware of any at all? 
Are you aware of any in your neighborhood, or in the vicinity? 
I don't get out much, you know, with me being at high risk for COVID, I just mostly stay put. 
I'm not aware of any payphones in the area, but then again, I hadn't been looking. 
All right, that's a fair answer. 
I'm also not aware of any of those kiosks that you described. 
The Link NYC? 
I don't know if I've ever seen one. 
You've never seen a Link NYC kiosk? 
Wow, okay. 
I'm kind of envious. 
Maybe I did, and I just don't remember. 
I think you'd remember. 
I think you'd remember that. 
It's like seeing a monolith from 2001. 
All right. 
Well, good hearing from you. 
Congratulations on your victory. 
We're going to open up the phone lines. 
Okay, bye-bye. 
And again, thank you for your support. 
You're welcome. 
Okay, and our phone number 802-321-4225 802-321-HACK We're on for a few more minutes at least. 
Yeah. 
Alex, you got something? 
Well, I just think it's wonderful to hear that despite the fact that we're not fundraising actively, begging for money online, that some of our devoted listeners and regular callers saw fit to support WBAI the station. 
I think that's great. 
I'm glad that she brought that to our attention, and I agree with Eleanor that we should I think thanking more of our supporters publicly, I think it would encourage more support. 
So, we got a call. 
How did you know? 
Wow. 
Yes, we did have a call. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the hook all the time. 
Go ahead. 
Greetings. 
Hello, Gila, Rob, Kyle, Alex, Manuel. 
Greetings to everyone out there. 
How you doing? 
It's Kirby from Etobicoke. 
Hey, Kirby. 
What's up? 
Hi there. 
Not too much. 
How's Ontario? 
It's election night. 
Oh, wow. 
How about that? 
We've got to turn on the Canadian TV and see what's going on there. 
It's tomorrow night. 
Wait, tomorrow night or tonight? 
Tomorrow night. 
Tonight's the eve. 
It's like Hallow's Eve. 
June 2nd. 
Ontario election. 
Just for everybody out there, there's four major parties. 
Two of the Conservatives, the Liberals, the New Democratic Party, and the Green Party. 
Doug Ford's government seems to be heading for another majority. 
If you're out there and you're from Ontario, make sure you get out and vote. 
Have your say. 
I'm a little bit resentful of Canada. 
I mentioned this on last night's show. 
We had the mass shootings and you guys get the gun reform. 
How is that fair? 
We deserve the gun reform. 
Trudeau goes out there and says, you know what? 
No more of these assault-style weapons. 
We're going to stop the sale of handguns. 
In this country, we just basically keep voting for the same thing over and over again. 
It doesn't matter how bad it gets. 
We just keep letting it happen. 
It's disgusting. 
Congratulations. 
Seriously. 
What happens in Canada is we have more than just two main political parties. 
Currently, as far as I understand, the minority liberal government, which had enough seats to more than anybody else, but not enough to have a majority, has made a deal with the farther-leaning left New Democratic Party. 
That deal is for a couple of years. 
The New Democrats will support any of the bills that they put on the floor. 
I think that's why it's possible to get this done during a government that's not a majority government. 
Just the fact that you can get it done at all is more than we have here. 
It doesn't seem to matter if we're majority Democrat, majority Republican. 
We just seem to stagnate, and we keep pointing to things from the 1700s that don't apply, that don't make any sense. 
There was a terrific piece, actually, in the Washington Post today. 
We talked about this last night, basically saying how the Second Amendment has been interpreted by radicals since the 80s, and it's not interpreted the same way as it was before then. 
In other words, from the 1780s or 90s all the way up to 1980, for about 200 years, it was interpreted in a particular way. 
Then, with this new Republican movement that we've been suffering under for so long, it was, I guess, radicalized, where it basically means anybody can get anything and do whatever they want, and you've seen the results. 
We're told that that's the way the Founding Fathers intended it, and I don't believe it. 
I don't believe it for a second. 
We've been too timid to tell people that they're wrong, their interpretation is wrong. 
It's been the same attitude, like, oh, you're unaware of this type of that firearm or this or that. 
The details are too much for you because you don't advocate for it, so you must be educated. 
It's the same thing, that creep of interpretation of this amendment has morphed into something where, oh, you liberals don't understand because you don't support this. 
We're telling you this actually means this. 
Conservative elitism, that's what that is. 
Yeah, and it's forced this weird cowering of like, oh, well, maybe they're right. 
It's very easy to tell half of a lie and have that stick. 
It's like, Alex, I've told you this story many times, but when I was in college and we would basically distribute false memos all over campus to basically cause all kinds of mischief, we announced that a curfew was being re-established at the university from the 1960s, and there had to be this whole big PR campaign to tell everybody that, no, we are not re-implementing the curfew. 
Everything is staying the same. 
This curfew was in effect in the 60s, but it's not in effect now. 
There was never a curfew, but we somehow were able to change history so that when they denied it, they had to say that there was a curfew in the 60s because they didn't do their research and realize that they were being completely fooled. 
That's what's happened to us with this interpretation of the Second Amendment. 
We're told that this is what it means over and over again until we start saying it ourselves, and it's not what it meant. 
It's never what it meant. 
You have to look at the entire Constitution to see what a well-regulated militia actually means, and when you do that, you realize it's not the way it's being interpreted now. 
That requires you to not pay attention to the rest of the document. 
I just wanted to add that what the result of this is, it ends up being the people who have been told one thing talk to people and try to educate them with the wrong information because they think they're right. 
They've been told by the gun manufacturers, the political leadership, the NRA. 
They've been told this fallacy about this amendment. 
They run around heavily armed, telling all their best friends and neighbors and family members that, oh, this is true. 
This is a fact, and while they're loading up their assault rifle, and we're supposed to confront them and say, no, you're wrong. 
That's the setup. 
Kirby called us from Ontario just to say hi, and here we are basically standing up and yelling about guns and the Second Amendment and all that. 
I'm sorry, Kirby. 
We just get impassioned sometimes with what's going on in the world. 
Listen, it's passionate times. 
After what's gone on, I understand your emotions completely. 
And, you know, this is a discourse. 
It's no problem. 
Whatever you guys want to talk about. 
Hold that thought because Alex looks particularly perturbed now. 
In fact, he's sweating. 
He's got something to say. 
Go ahead. 
Well, on the subject of the NRA, I think it's worth mentioning something somewhat historical in a sense. 
I mean, it's the NRA. 
Emmanuel, or anybody, what does the NRA stand for? 
What is that? 
You're asking me what the NRA stands for? 
Yeah. 
Well, what does that acronym stand for? 
They stand for terror, Alex. 
They stand for illogical. 
They stand for absurd interpretations of the Constitution. 
What do the letters stand for? 
Is that what you're asking? 
What is the R in particular? 
Rifle. 
Yes, I know. 
It's rifle. 
Right. 
So, rifle. 
National Rifle Association. 
Right? 
Rifle is an interesting choice of word when you're forming an organization. 
Right? 
Because a rifle is a long gun, number one. 
It's not a handgun. 
It's not something that you would conceal in most states. 
Most states' rifles are not nearly as regulated as handguns. 
But the NRA, when it was founded, had nothing to do with gun rights and gun advocacy. 
It was a marksman's club. 
It was for people who shot rifles. 
And that's what it was for a really, really long time. 
It was up until, I think, the 70s, and then during the 80s, it wasn't involved in politics. 
It was an apolitical organization. 
Once they started getting involved in politics and the position of the NRA became that they would oppose any kind of gun legislation, any kind of reform that would regulate firearms, the NRA was adamantly going to be opposed to that. 
And that became its mantra. 
And that's how it wound up becoming basically the apolitical action committee and organization that it is today, and how it went from being a marksman's club to this massive and powerful political organization with millions of members around the country. 
Alex, when did that start? 
When did that change start? 
It changed when there was a certain CEO. 
I can't remember his name off the top of my head. 
Put me on the spot. 
There was a CEO of the NRA. 
Interesting story. 
There was an article about this. 
I believe it was in the FT last weekend. 
I'll look it up. 
Once I shut my mouth here, I'll go back and look up the name of it. 
But the gist of it is that there was this CEO of the NRA, or the executive director of the NRA who came in, I think it was in the mid-70s or maybe the early 80s, and he rejiggered the entire organization to be much more of a political animal than an actual sportsman's club. 
The 1980s is the same period we were talking about before. 
Exactly right. 
But what was interesting was this guy who became like a household name, it came out way after he had completely reformed the NRA that he was convicted I believe when he was 17 or 15, I think he was 17 years old, he was convicted of, I believe, manslaughter for killing a 15 year old with a firearm. 
And nobody knew about this. 
How does nobody know about that? 
How does that slip by? 
It seems like a really relevant thing to know about somebody who would be running the National Rifle Association and turning it into a political animal. 
But this is a guy, the person who made the sea change and the policy of the NRA, was he himself convicted of killing somebody, another human being, I believe a 15 year old child with a firearm. 
I'm going to shut up and I'll get the additional details on this now. 
These days I think they'd see that as a plus. 
Like, oh, he knows how to aim a gun. 
Disgusting things like that. 
Emmanuel, may I speak? 
Yes, please, go ahead. 
I just wanted to say that, you know, sometimes I call the line and stuff and we talk about Doug Ford of politics. 
And I'll just say that I keep it light and fun because this isn't an Ontario politics show or whatnot. 
But, you know, tomorrow the election, Doug Ford has basically bought it with, he gave $240 to everybody that owns a car and he rebated licensing fees. 
And, you know, he makes appearances at local McDonald's saying he loves french fries. 
He plays, honest to goodness, he plays this handyman role like he's in a photo op, like he's helping somebody jack up a tire or something or, you know, helping somebody carry a box into a truck. 
And the bottom line is, everything's not so sweet in Canada and Ontario. 
It's the same kind of cronyism. 
It's not guns in this case. 
You know, he's building a highway that's going to infringe on a green area and, you know, that's going to kill people in different ways. 
It's just an example of how these politicians, it's really, in my opinion, a lot of it is cronyism and doing it for their buddies and they owe somebody a favour. 
You know, suddenly this highway, everybody, all the land around the highway is owned by people he knows. 
You know, that kind of stuff. 
Uh-huh. 
This is a kind of cronyism... 
I just want to say... 
Go ahead, finish. 
Well, I was just going to say if anybody's out there in Ontario and they're waffling or they don't know if they should vote or whatever, just take it seriously because another majority of Doug Ford will just mean that his buddies get paid off and, you know, everybody else suffers. 
I work in the public service at different institutions in Ontario and there's been like a 1% pay increase freeze for like 4 years or 5 years, you know, and everybody knows what inflation is doing. 
And so just to end all that, I just, like I say, I just don't want anybody to get the wrong idea that everything is rosy in Canada and the politicians are getting things done and, you know, everything is fine. 
It's great that we're putting this on the table. 
We'll hope it passes. 
Canadians are mostly supportive of a handgun ban. 
Nobody in Canada needs a handgun except for sport. 
And that's an extreme exception. 
And it's even a different kind of gun. 
And I will tell you, less than 5 kilometers from where I'm sitting, in Toronto, one of the Toronto Maple Leafs was carjacked with a handgun. 
So I don't want to make any, you know, I don't want anybody out there to think that we're saying that, you know, Canada is better or doesn't have these problems. 
It has different forms of them. 
If I could just disagree, you are better. 
I mean, I'm not saying these problems aren't real and that you can certainly do better than Doug Ford, and if you have that opportunity, you need to take it. 
But the fact is, you know, you guys get it as far as gun control. 
You guys get it as far as health care. 
And you can even go to the people on the right, and they will at least get that much. 
They'd be called radicals in this country for the left, but that doesn't mean that they don't have serious problems. 
That doesn't mean that you shouldn't think carefully and do better, absolutely. 
But I'm envious of some of the things. 
Nobody in this country, generally, okay, let's not say nobody, let's say most people in this country that own a gun don't own it because they have to shoot somebody that's coming to get them. 
They have it for a different reason, and I think that's one of the definitive points. 
The other thing, though, is in the states with this discourse and the way that the pro-gun people talk, I mean, it's obvious that, okay, this is an argument. 
An argument turns into a fight, and what happens if they lose the fight? 
Then they're going to shoot you, right? 
That's really the problem with the discourse is that at the end of this argument, if they don't win, they're just going to kill you anyway. 
Yeah, and I think that's part of the reason why they maintain the platform so long is that people are scared of them. 
Exactly. 
Wow. 
Exactly. 
Well, a lot to think about. 
I just hope that we're making progress. 
Alex, I think you had something to say? 
Go ahead. 
Yeah, I just want to clarify what I mentioned earlier, and I have the actual facts here. 
The person to whom I was referring, who became the leader of the NRA and changed it from essentially a marksman organization to a political organization We got a drumroll here. 
It was a guy by the name of Harlan Bronson Carter. 
He was alive from 1913 to 1991, and he was an advocate. 
This is from his Wikipedia. 
He was an advocate for gun rights in the United States and a leader of the NRA, National Rifle Association. 
Carter's 1977 election as NRA Executive Vice President marked a turning point for the organization. 
During his tenure from 1977 to 1985, the years we were discussing, he shifted the organization's focus from promoting marksmanship and sports shooting towards strident advocacy for less restrictive gun laws. 
Under Carter's leadership, the NRA became less compromising on guns rights issues. 
It also tripled its membership and gained considerable political influence. 
Carter killed 15-year-old Ramon Cassiano in his youth and was convicted of Cassiano's murder. 
It wasn't manslaughter, it was murder. 
Although this conviction was later overturned. 
I think it might have had something to do with a jury instruction. 
The incident was not generally known during most of Carter's leadership of the NRA, but rose to greater prominence and infamy later. 
Wow. 
That is something. 
I did not know any of that. 
You'd think that would be something I would know. 
You would think that would be a big, you know, fact about the checkered history of the NRA, but it just gets eclipsed by many other blotches in its past. 
Gila, did you have something? 
You're muted, Gila. 
Sorry, how about that? 
Speaking of things you'd think, as we're talking about the NRA and as we're talking about the state of the discourse, since we went on air, there have been three mass shootings in the country in the last hour and a half. 
God, I don't want to hear that. 
Any details? 
I hate to have to ask this, but how big mass shootings are they? 
Minor mass shootings? 
Minor. 
They're not, you know, 19 schoolchildren. 
I don't have a lot of details about stuff, but I don't know what we need to do. 
I don't. 
And, yeah, sorry to bring the room down, guys. 
Kirby, thank you for calling, because it's always nice to hear from you. 
We were already kind of down as it is, but one thing that I think we should start with, one thing we should start with is not politicizing these mass shootings, not saying there's a difference if it happens in Chicago or if it happens in Oklahoma. 
It's terrible no matter how people get guns. 
It's terrible if it's a fight. 
It's terrible if it's some lunatic mowing down a church or a school. 
It's terrible if it's a, as we're seeing more and more now, groups of people with guns firing at each other, because they all believe they're the good guys with the guns. 
You know, it's just, you're going to see it more and more circumstances where the only common denominator are the guns. 
So, that's the thing that we have to all realize no matter what side of the political spectrum we're on. 
It's not a political issue. 
It really isn't. 
It's a health issue. 
It's a societal issue. 
And, you know, again, let's not forget the vast majority of people in our country, the United States, they want to see gun reform. 
They want to see assault-style weapons banned. 
And they probably want to see a lot more than that. 
So, we have to stop pretending that this loud, vocal minority really represents anyone but their own selfish interests. 
And we need a way to make sure they do not have the power they have now. 
I'm sorry, Kirby. 
That's the last I'm going to say about the subject. 
Hey, listen, it's a show for everybody. 
So, don't worry. 
Whatever way it goes, it goes. 
Can you tell us something maybe nice and positive from Up Your Ways? 
Certainly. 
Alright. 
Okay, okay. 
Notice how quickly he said something. 
Good news, bad news. 
Go ahead. 
The good news is I got my flight booked and I got my hotel booked for the Hope Conference. 
Awesome! 
Wow! 
Yeah. 
The bad news is I, because of the pandemic and, you know, just the uncertainty of everything, I've decided not to do some kind of roundabout route in order to get to the conference, just because the logistics and here and there and everything, you know. 
You do know Rebel is currently hitchhiking through Turkey, so not all of our listeners follow the same advice. 
Well, that is true. 
That is true. 
Now, that being said, I will be landing in New York four hours from where I sit. 
You mean it'll take you four hours to get? 
Okay, that's not bad. 
Including the international pre-booking, including everything, the flight's an hour and 25 minutes. 
Wow, that's quick. 
Yeah, it's great. 
It's probably better than driving over across town in the morning to get to, like, you know, a job on the other side of the city. 
Now, can I ask which airport are you flying into? 
Uh, Newark. 
Okay, so you're flying into the least convenient airport, but that's fine, because... 
But it's the most convenient for me on this end. 
Okay, fine. 
So, Gila, how do we walk him through this? 
What would you suggest? 
Oh, um... 
Right, because we've got two airports in Queens, and you're flying to New Jersey. 
So, excellent choice, Kirby. 
This is very exciting. 
It's actually not hard. 
Okay. 
I'm unfamiliar with Newark, because I'm in Queens. 
What do you suggest to me? 
They have an air train, too. 
Okay, it goes to every terminal. 
There's a monorail, which is very exciting, and you basically get a ticket on that, and that takes you from the terminal to Penn Station. 
It's that simple. 
You take the monorail to the train station, and then you get on New Jersey Transit and take that to Penn Station. 
Don't get on Amtrak. 
If you get on Amtrak, you'll be charged a much higher rate. 
It probably won't stop there anyway. 
You get on New Jersey Transit. 
The trains are frequent. 
And then you're in Penn Station. 
Okay, you're halfway there. 
Then you switch at Penn Station to a Long Island Railroad train and take that to Jamaica. 
They almost all go to Jamaica, and they leave very frequently, and the trip is not very long, like about 20 minutes or so. 
And from there, there's... 
I don't know which hotel you're staying at, but there's a bus, I believe, that goes to the hotel from there, or... 
I'm not exactly sure what the best way to get to the hotel is. 
The venue... 
I'm sorry? 
The two starter hotels that you listed, they're about two or three miles away from the venue. 
Yeah, they're less than two miles away. 
Yeah, so that's... 
That's nothing. 
Just put the backpack on and get on the running shoes and just start walking before you can even... 
Absolutely, yeah. 
But you can get to the venue very easily from Jamaica Station by train. 
There's a bus that goes directly there. 
And from the venue, it's very easy to get to the hotels. 
I know that much. 
All of these things are true. 
And also, if you get to Penn Station, if you don't feel like taking the Long Island Railroad, you can also take the E train on good old New York City Transit, the E train to Kew Gardens Union Turnpike, I believe. 
But again, all of these instructions for all sorts of various modes of transit can be found on hope.net slash travel dot html. 
Transit? 
Gila has spent months putting all of this together. 
So we strongly suggest everybody read every word so that her efforts are not in vain. 
Well, as a international visitor, I was able to book the hotel through the website and get the proper codes. 
Cool. 
It worked out great. 
Thank you. 
For those of you who are bemoaning the fact that you might be too late because they are selling out, we just posted five more hotels on our website. 
They have good rates as it is. 
We don't need a special code with them. 
Check those out as well. 
They're all within two miles. 
Great. 
Good hearing from you. 
I look forward to Hope coming up in just about seven weeks. 
I just got to take a plane for an hour and a half. 
You guys got to run the whole thing. 
Yeah. 
We better start thinking about that. 
Great hearing from you. 
We'll follow the election tomorrow and we'll think of you as it's happening. 
Are there elections all throughout Canada or is it just Ontario? 
It's Ontario only, but it should be a lively night on Canadian television. 
Oh, yes. 
Absolutely. 
All right. 
Take care. 
Take care, everyone. 
Shall we try for one more, Kyle? 
What do you think? 
I think the system can handle it. 
Can we handle it? 
We've been on the air or online for over an hour. 
Let's do one more call. 
802-321-4225. 
802-321-HACK is our phone number. 
Yes, Gila. 
Oh, no. 
Sorry. 
You were raising your hand. 
I was playing with a little laser pointer. 
I'm sorry. 
I forgot that I was raising my hand. 
My apologies. 
That's okay. 
Playing with a laser pointer, that can be dangerous, unless you have a cat. 
And we have a phone call? 
We have a call. 
And go ahead. 
You're on Off the Hook Overtime. 
Speak up. 
Is anyone there? 
Yes. 
Sorry. 
Hi. 
What's on your mind? 
Hi. 
I think I found out what this non-nonsense is all about. 
All of it? 
Yeah, I don't know about all of it, but at least the good foundation of it. 
Okay. 
Let's hear it. 
Well, it makes a lot of sense. 
You hear it, you're going to think, you know, the other side kind of justified if they're believing this and if they're, you know, been selling this information around and saying, like, hush, hush, don't tell anyone else, except us and people getting riled up about it. 
Anyway, it's the Simpsons. 
The Simpsons? 
The characters. 
Yes, the Simpsons did it. 
I knew it! 
Didn't I always say it was the Simpsons? 
They're at the root of all this crap? 
Not just this, everything. 
People blame Family Guy, they blame South Park, but it's always the Simpsons. 
Yeah, it's those Harvard grads. 
Wow. 
You know, they've only had one female writer. 
Is that true? 
Apparently. 
Yeah, and her name is Caroline Owens or something, which I think is a Red Sox reference. 
I wouldn't know. 
Interesting. 
Did you see their season finale, though? 
Boy, that was kind of, you know, radical as far as the things they were saying? 
No, I have no idea what was going on. 
I suggest people watch that. 
I'm surprised they put it on TV, to be honest. 
Wow. 
Well, if you think about the names, the character names, and there's a lot of different characters on that show, every single one is pretty much a sexual pun. 
Okay. 
And the puns, not only that, are they like sexual puns? 
They tie into the storyline. 
It's kind of interwoven into the series that there's an alternative, you know, stories. 
Weren't some of them named after family members of Matt Groening's? 
I don't know. 
I mean, possibly, but I mean, remember like... 
Okay. 
You know there's the three-eyed fish? 
Yes. 
Caused by the nuclear power plant. 
Yeah. 
Okay. 
Have you ever studied language, particularly learning English, and then there's a way... 
There's like this little... 
I don't know what it's called. 
It's like a cute little example to say that, you know, the English language, the spelling in it, is very, um... 
I don't know, forced. 
Because the English language imports so many different words. 
It's inconsistent, yes. 
There are all kinds of different weird rules. 
Yeah, and the thing is, you spell out fish, and you spell it out in a way that it's, um... 
I don't know, like a G or something. 
So if you think about that, and I think the second episode, Bart was in a, um... 
like a special school for, like, gifted children, and they said, you know, RDRR. 
That was like... 
And then they had a lot of prank calls, backward speech, a lot of anagrams, like the whole thing. 
There's a lot of, you know, wordplay in it. 
Interesting. 
So if you think about all the character names, they're, um... 
Go ahead. 
Are you talking about spelling fish G-H-O-T-I? 
Maybe. 
I'm not quite sure. 
I took Latin in high school. 
I remember the teacher, the instructor, writing and saying, like, oh, you could spell it out this way, and then you use the pronunciation from all these different words that you borrowed the letter from. 
You could say, you know, it would be pronounced fish. 
But it wouldn't look like... 
So... 
Yeah. 
G-H-O-T-I. 
G-H as in tough. 
O as in I don't remember. 
And T-I as in initial. 
It spells fish. 
You know, this gives us a lot to think about. 
And I think listeners should do some research on this. 
There could be something here. 
But thanks for sharing it with us. 
Yeah. 
Yeah, anytime. 
Love the show. 
All right. 
Take care. 
And I think that's going to do it for us tonight, because we are tired. 
And, boy, this day went by fast. 
Gila, Alex, good talking to you again. 
Gila, looks like you have something else to add. 
Just two things. 
I was just going to say, don't forget, 2600 meetings are this Friday. 
Oh, my God. 
I forgot. 
I totally forgot. 
2600 meetings are this Friday. 
Check it out, wherever you may happen to be. 
And also, happy Pride, everybody. 
That's right. 
It's June. 
It's June 1st. 
Make some noise. 
Throw a brick. 
Be proud. 
When you say throw a brick, I mean, you know, be careful where you throw the brick. 
Be prideful. 
Stonewall was a riot, for Pete's sake. 
Have a brick in your hand, in case. 
Yeah, that's fair. 
Alex, any final words from you? 
No, I'm all topped out. 
Good night, everybody. 
Have a wonderful week. 
Yes, I think that's a good sentiment to end on. 
Thank you, everybody, for calling. 
Again, write to us, OTH at 2600.com. 
And please send us any info or interesting articles or whatnot that you think might benefit from. 
Again, more information on Hope.net will be appearing on almost a daily basis at this point. 
We will see you next week on Off the Hook at 7 and on Off the Hook Overtime at 8. 
Good night.