you are returning a call to a prepaid calling service system and the party that called you cannot be reached at this number 
the telephone keeps ringing so i ripped it off 
i cut myself while shaving now i can't make a call 
we could be at much worse but if they could they would 
monday mom for the 
best expect for worse i hope that's understood monday monday 
We'll be right back. 
For so long, has come and gone. 
Hackers on Planet Earth is over, and this is one of those shows where we all just kind of recover, I guess, live on the air. 
I'm Manuel Goldstein, joined tonight by Kyle. 
Hello. 
And in Skypeland, we have a whole bunch of people. 
We have what looks like Greg Newby up there. 
Greg, are you there? 
Hey, I am, and it's great to be here. 
Looks like you're in some kind of an airport or something. 
I am on the way home, and it does actually take a little while to get there. 
Now, when you say home, you're talking about the Yukon Territories in Canada, so it's no small trip. 
Indeed. 
And Greg... 
The northwest corner of Canada. 
That's right. 
And I can't wait to see it. 
But Greg has been so instrumental in having this Hope Conference get pulled off successfully. 
And there's a reason why this one was a particularly important one. 
We'll get into that in just a moment. 
Let me finish the introductions. 
We also have... 
Voltaire is joining us. 
Voltaire, welcome. 
Hi, how's it going? 
It's, you know, jet lagged. 
Let's put it that way. 
I'm local, but I'm jet lagged. 
Jet lagged from Queens? 
Yeah, I don't understand how that's possible, but it is. 
And, of course, Alex, who's with us each week. 
Welcome, Alex. 
Good evening, everybody. 
We have Mitch Altman. 
And you're usually in Germany, but it looks like you're in the same room as Voltaire right now, so I guess you're in New York. 
I'm in New York. 
I go back home on Saturday. 
Okay, wow. 
And we have Liz Gorski. 
We're in little Ukraine. 
Okay, we have Liz Gorski joining us as well, from parts unknown to me, at least. 
Yeah, I'm still in Queens. 
Oh, you're in Queens? 
But I live here, so... 
You're in Queens? 
You live in Queens? 
Yeah. 
I didn't know that. 
Wow. 
Okay, well, you know, let's start with that, because the Hackers on Planet Earth conference that took place this weekend, it was our 14th conference, I believe, and every single one of those conferences has taken place on the island of Manhattan, all of them at the Hotel Pennsylvania, except for Beyond Hope, which took place at the Puck Building. 
This one took place in the borough of Queens, the most diverse borough, the most diverse county university in the entire United States, and I was just so proud and privileged to bring people there. 
I grew up in Queens, too, if you consider eight years old, grown up, that's how long I lasted. 
And just to see all these people come to St. 
John's University instead, a university setting instead of a hotel setting, was truly inspirational. 
It was a completely different mood. 
As we said at the beginning of the conference, this is going to be history. 
We're setting a tone right now for the future, because Hotel Pennsylvania is no more. 
I believe it's being destroyed as we speak, which is awfully sad, but we have to consider how we're going to survive and move on and continue doing what we do. 
And St. 
John's University was a great place to have the conference, it turned out, because it's a fantastic campus, a lot of open space, and a lot of infrastructure and great rooms to use for various speaker tracks and workshops and all sorts of other projects. 
So who wants to go first as far as giving some recollection? 
Greg, looks like you have something to say. 
Well, actually, I was curious if you think we would like to share the story of how we came to be at St. 
John's. 
And I know Kyle knows the beginning of that story, and I know sort of the middle of that story, but it's a pretty interesting story of how St. 
John's and Hope got together. 
Well, I can start with the very beginning, which is Hotel Pennsylvania tripling their prices after the 2018 conference, which devastated us because we could not have put on a conference that would be affordable to average people. 
It would have to be one of those $1,000, $2,000 ahead type of deals, and that's just not who we are. 
So we started looking throughout New York City thinking, yeah, it has to be another hotel. 
And boy, you know, Hotel Pennsylvania was a fairly cheap hotel compared to everything else. 
And when we saw what other hotels were going to be charging, it even made the tripling of the price that Hotel Pennsylvania was pulling. 
It made that seem cheap in comparison. 
So, you know, people were giving us all sorts of suggestions many times saying, why don't you - you don't have to have the conference in New York. 
You can come to this particular town, and it happens to be the town that I live in, but we think that would be - I think that would be the best place for the conference to be. 
It's a mile from my house. 
We got a lot of suggestions like that, and we took them seriously. 
Yeah, sometimes it was just like an empty pier or like a dock or something. 
Well, yeah, it doesn't have to be inside. 
It can be outside. 
You know, a lot of people don't realize what it takes to put on a conference. 
It's - yeah, it has an open field by my house. 
We can have it there. 
Yeah, it's - no, it doesn't work that way. 
So, Greg, I know you were very much involved in the search at that point, and I think the next chapter is yours. 
Well, the thing that was interesting is there's a predecessor history, which Kyle was involved with, where we had a bunch of students and some faculty from St. 
John's, from the cybersecurity program there, attending Hackers on Planet Earth in a pretty big group, and I think that was 2016, but it was early 2018, where they sent a bunch of students. 
And so they knew about us. 
We knew a little bit about them. 
They had the cybersecurity program, some other interesting things going on. 
And so when it came time to shop around, we sent out a formal RFP. 
We got some nice support from the New York City Tourism Department to send out an RFP for venues. 
We got some really strong proposals back from some of the big monster hotels in Manhattan. 
And one of the first things we discovered is that if you're going to work in a big monster hotel, it's very difficult to bring volunteer labor. 
And HOPE is a volunteer-led conference. 
So the economics were going to be problematic, maybe even more problematic than Hotel Pen tripling its price. 
But St. 
John's was part of the mix there. 
And they said, not only do we have this sort of alignment of, you know, we have a cybersecurity program. 
We've been sending students. 
We're interested in what you're doing. 
We're sympathetic to, you know, 2600 Magazine and the HOPE Conference and Off the Hook Radio Show. 
So also, though, we really want to let you be creative and sort of follow your dreams. 
And we want to be part of that. 
So that was really an enlightened response from St. 
John's University. 
And I think we built from there. 
Of course, that was back, maybe it was 2019. 
That was back when we were planning a 2020 event. 
And, of course, we didn't have that. 
We had a virtual event in 2020. 
But we maintained the relationship. 
So here in 2022, all that we thought they were, you know, sort of aligned with us on really came to be. 
You know, we really got what we wanted from St. 
John's and all the expectations in terms of collaboration, cooperation, real openness to the sort of things that our attendees do. 
All of that came to be. 
Yeah, it was a great, great relationship, just accommodating that many students coming to a place like Hotel Penn and trying to find a place that suited us, that matched the way we wanted to do things, that had all as many of the amenities, many as many of the details that like proximity to transit and so forth that we could emulate. 
Emulate, but in a different location, because we didn't have that previous one. 
But the familiarity with the school, it really was intriguing how our search was sort of in parallel. 
And as we went through our options, this campus emerged as a possibility. 
We didn't know for sure. 
There was a lot of unknowns going into it. 
And we really didn't, we just kind of mentioned it in some of our discussions with the student advisor there, Denise, and that program. 
And they were kind of enthusiastic. 
And it still wasn't clear what it was going to take. 
And that's the thing that I think a lot of us were surprised about. 
And the school, of course, probably, you know, they had a lot of questions about, you know, how to get it right. 
And we wanted to make sure it happened. 
Here's the thing. 
St. 
John's has a great cyber program. 
They have really state-of-the-art networking. 
And they were enthused to have something like Hope on their turf. 
And, you know, I can certainly see why it's definitely a changed mood when you're on a college campus as opposed to in the middle of midtown Manhattan in a crowded hotel. 
It becomes a lot more relaxed, a lot more open to all kinds of conversations. 
Because, you know, the hallway track, the hallway track is what people always talk about at conferences. 
That's where you basically are talking to people outside the actual prepared talks. 
And that's where you network, that's where you meet people. 
And the entire campus was a hallway track. 
There were all kinds of places to go. 
I saw people at 2 in the morning sitting at tables outside having conversations. 
That is what it's all about, that kind of community, of getting together. 
That's what we were hoping was going to happen. 
But, you know, none of it would have worked if the attendees had rejected it or hadn't been comfortable there. 
And I'm happy to say from everything I've heard so far, it's a good fit. 
Now, there are things we can improve upon. 
We're going to talk about that a little bit. 
And that's something we can use help. 
We can use advice. 
But mostly, I think this is a good pairing. 
And it's a different chapter in our community because we're moving from one venue to something completely different. 
And, you know, it's kind of like starting over again. 
It's hence a new hope. 
Now, Liz, I know as you live in Queens, you must have heard at some point, hey, hope is coming to something fairly close to your neighborhood. 
How did you feel when you first heard that? 
I was honestly, to be able to go to Hope and sleep in my own bed at night, that was just like perfect because we lived less than 15 minutes away from campus. 
So that was actually, like, great. 
I could see everyone, go home afterward, pet my cat. 
Where is she? 
But, yeah, no, that was super exciting. 
I did miss the environment of just being in Manhattan because, you know, growing up on Long Island, you know, it's a big deal to, like, go into Manhattan for the day and to go for a conference. 
But to have it essentially right in my backyard, it was quite lovely, honestly. 
Well, I mean, it's good for people who live in Queens, obviously. 
But for the people who came, I was amazed how many people had never been to Queens before. 
We asked that at the closing ceremonies. 
And the majority of people had never been to Queens. 
Now, there were a couple of options for places to stay. 
If you didn't live in Queens, you could stay in a dormitory on campus, which is what me, Kyle, Mitch, and Greg decided to do. 
And it was the right choice, I think, for us because we could just roll out of bed and walk across campus, not a very long walk at all, and just be at the conference. 
But there were also hotels down the road. 
And I know, Alex, you were telling me earlier that you were hanging out at one of those hotels. 
It's literally right smack on the Long Island Expressway. 
I mean, it's not on the Expressway, but it's on that service road, Horace, Harding, whatever that is. 
And there's two hotels there, and there's a bar, the Emerald Pub, I think is what it's called, on the ground floor. 
And you were actually hanging out in that bar. 
And that's what I was hoping people would do, that they'd find some kind of a place to hang out after hours and just meet other people in that kind of a setting. 
What was that like? 
Well, yeah, we were certainly there for hours after hours. 
And I got to say, it was fantastic. 
I mean, the Emerald Pub, which was right next to the Fairfield Inn, which is, I think, one of the hotels that the conference had recommended. 
And also, let me back up and go farther back in the day. 
This was Saturday night when I was there. 
But speaking of Queens, you had also recommended, Emanuel, that a colleague and I go out to Flushing. 
And, you know, I live in Manhattan, and I'm never, ever over in Queens, and especially not Flushing. 
And I have to say, you know, the last time I was in Flushing, it was probably 20-something years ago. 
The place has completely changed. 
And it honestly felt like I could have been in a city in China. 
And we had such a great experience. 
We found so many amazing restaurants. 
We wound up on the roof of the Hyatt Hotel with another conference speaker who shall remain nameless, you know, for good reason, because we were out way too late. 
And we just had a blast. 
We had a blast just running around, exploring the place, and feeling like we're literally 25 minutes away, you know, maybe 11 miles from where I live in Manhattan. 
But it felt like a completely different world. 
And then on the way back, so it was just probably about 1.30 in the morning, maybe later, we had stopped back at the Emerald Pub. 
And it was chalk to the brim with hackers and people from the conference playing pool, hanging out with locals. 
The Emerald Pub was open until 4 a.m., like a tried-and-true New York pub prior to the pandemic. 
Everyone was playing darts, playing pool, hanging out outside. 
It was a great time. 
It really reminded me of, you know, when you think about kind of dive bar, dingy Irish pubs and Hope, it reminded me a hell of a lot of the Blarney Stone. 
But yet here we are in Queens finding essentially the equivalent, the new tradition, I think, that will be our drinking spot for Hope for hopefully many years to come. 
We had a blast. 
It was just a great time. 
Yeah, that's awesome to hear, and that's everything I was hoping would happen because we do need that kind of a place to hang out in. 
The campus is a dry campus. 
You can't drink on campus. 
Honestly, I welcome that because almost all of the problems we've had in the past have been connected in some way to drinking. 
And it's just good to not have those problems right in the middle of the conference. 
So, you know, if you want to go off campus and, you know, have that kind of a hangout, fine. 
It's nearby. 
It's plentiful. 
And as you said, the neighborhood is just so interesting. 
Flushing is just a few minutes away by Uber or Lyft or a yellow cab. 
But our experience Sunday night after we did most of the loading of trucks after the conference had ended, it was my thought that we'd just head down to Flushing, but it got really late. 
It was midnight, and we were desperate, thinking, oh, are we going to wind up in a fast food joint or something? 
But, no, this is still New York, and we were able to find this awesome Chinese place on a side street in Flushing. 
It even had Hope in the name. 
I'm not going to say the full name, but it was such a bizarre coincidence. 
And when we went in there, Alex, like you said, it was like going into China because it was one of these places that's inside another place that's upstairs and around the back. 
It was so incredibly awesome, and the food we had was so authentic and so spicy. 
And just really, it made me happy after that weekend to be able to just sort of go to a place like that that was so close by. 
And I just hope many people had similar experiences like that. 
And, by the way, if you had an experience at Hope, whether it was in person or online, because we had a lot of online attendees as well, you can write to us, feedback at hope.net. 
And tell us what it was like. 
Tell us what you experienced. 
Tell us the things that worked, the things that didn't work. 
We'd love to hear from you. 
Now, Volter, I know you were at the conference. 
Somehow, I didn't see you at the conference, but I know you were there. 
How do you compare it? 
I really liked it. 
I thought that the classroom atmosphere would work super well, especially for the workshops. 
It was just, I think, it was much easier as a participant, and I assume as a presenter, having everybody in front of you, as opposed to at Hope where it's kind of like in spreading circles. 
So, it was easier for the workshop giver to come around and help everybody and make sure to find out how many people were behind and ahead with soldering. 
So, that went really well, and it actually gave me a lot more confidence working on it. 
I soldered two different projects there, and that was really rewarding. 
Yeah. 
Mitch and other people, I believe, were also teaching people how to solder. 
And that enthusiasm was there throughout, and all kinds of interesting talks and workshops and projects. 
Now, Greg, I think you have something? 
Well, I was going to suggest, actually, what you just started on, which is maybe for listeners who didn't attend or are thinking of attending, maybe we should just give a quick rundown of some of the types of activities and some of the highlights from the event. 
And I can start. 
We had three simultaneous tracks with a whole bunch of speakers. 
We had a really interesting keynote discussion with a Facebook whistleblower named Sophie Zhang. 
Very, very interesting talk. 
She was so awesome. 
But over 70 different talks. 
She was incredible. 
I was just fixated to the screen. 
I was actually in the room. 
The streaming was flawless, by the way. 
We were able to watch it from anywhere on site or even in the world. 
But just watching her keynote address on Saturday was simply incredible. 
Such an amazing person. 
Such a courageous person. 
Really inspirational. 
And all of those talks were streamed live, but they were also recorded. 
So you can find them. 
You will be able to find them on channel 2600 on YouTube. 
I don't know what the ETA is, but probably within about a month or so. 
So keep your eyes open for that. 
It'll be sooner than that, Greg. 
We're sort of wading through them right now. 
We have some things to say about YouTube. 
We'll get to that a little bit later. 
But we're making it work. 
I know it's frustrating they're not there right now. 
It wasn't our idea to do it that way. 
But that's how it is. 
We are working on them. 
And maybe Mitch can summarize some of the workshops that we saw, because those were also incredibly awesome. 
Yeah, the workshops were really fun, and it did work really well in the classrooms. 
We had three simultaneous workshop rooms for scheduled workshops, and we had a room that I called hardware hacking area room for unscheduled activities, plus villages. 
That's some that we planned and some that spontaneously cropped up, like lockpicking village, which I was really sad that we couldn't make that plan, but one cropped up anyways, which was great, and a lot of people made use of that. 
I taught personally about 150 people how to solder. 
And a 15-year-old young woman who calls herself BSI lab taught lots and lots of people how to solder quite often early in the morning, and people got up early in the morning to go learn to solder with her. 
And there were all sorts of different workshops, some doing physical things, hardware, and others on more soft things, and even things that are, you know, obliquely, but very much related to what we do, like freedom of information. 
And we had a couple of those workshops, and how to deal with European law if your data is, you think it might be being misused, GDPR laws for how corporations use your cookies, all sorts of really interesting talks, very diverse. 
And I was really glad that so many different people stepped up to the plate and offered what they do to share with all the HOPE people. 
Yeah, and there were some last-minute workshops, some that replaced others, because we had so many people that were affected in one way or another by COVID or by flight cancellations. 
I know one of our security guys hit a pothole in his car and was completely prevented from getting to the conference. 
All sorts of horrible things happened to keep people away, but so many people were able to make it at the same time. 
Now, it was smaller. 
We intentionally kept the number of attendees down so that we could see how this would work the first time. 
We wanted space. 
We wanted people to make use of the outdoors as well. 
We told everybody to wear masks because we don't want anything being spread like at other conferences where they did not do that. 
We also had a vaccine check, which, you know, we were a little worried that might turn into something contentious. 
But thanks to the folks over at Operation Hammond who handled that part of it for us. 
It was separate from the actual conference. 
No information was saved or transferred or anything like that. 
Just a quick check. 
Are you vaccinated? 
Great. 
Go on in and hit registration desk. 
And I don't think we had a single problem. 
Or if there were problems, I could count them on a couple of fingers. 
Go ahead, Greg. 
Oh, go ahead, Kyle. 
Oh, all right. 
Thanks. 
I was going to follow up from before. 
The spontaneity of hope was always really cool. 
But this time, we had enough space. 
And we also sort of upped our technology game and the program so that it got even easier to find people that were like-minded. 
So you mentioned Lockpicking Village. 
There were also some informal soldering sort of classes and activities. 
There were also villages like the Internet of Things Village. 
In addition, we had this fourth track where people could show up, sign up, and just give a talk on anything. 
And I'll tell you just one funny thing, which was sort of a hacker joke. 
There was one of the very first talks to sign up was called Hacker Procrastination. 
And they signed up for Friday morning and then put a big X through it and said, Postponed. 
And so I liked that. 
And then they actually did the talk. 
I confirmed they actually did the talk at around 3 o'clock on Sunday afternoon. 
Wow. 
I didn't know they did the talk. 
In the last hour or so of the conference. 
Wow. 
That's something. 
Okay. 
Well, that's kind of cool. 
We also had, and this is something not everybody knew about, we had a parallel conference going on at the same time. 
MCH may contain hackers. 
The hacker camp in the Netherlands was taking place at the same time. 
What we did was we actually had three rooms set aside for each of their three speaker tracks. 
And we would start it up at four in the morning because that's when 10 o'clock in the morning is in the Netherlands over here. 
And it would run until about six at night our time. 
So you could go into any of their tracks and watch their talks as well. 
There's also another room where I believe you could communicate back and forth with people. 
I think, Voltaire, you took advantage of that? 
Yeah, I think that was one of my favorite aspects of the conference. 
In fact, I was able to message on Signal friends that were at MCH who were watching Hope Talks while I was watching MCH Talks. 
And that was fun to be somewhat live when they weren't able to be at each other's conferences. 
And I think that gets to one of my favorite parts about Hope is that compared to a lot of other infosecond hacker conferences in the States, we're a lot more activist and I guess you could say even political focus as opposed to a lot of purely tactical talks. 
And I think it's something we have in common with the Dutch series of camps as well as CCC. 
And I think it's what makes us unique. 
Yes, absolutely. 
Does anybody else have any interaction with MCH? 
You have something to say, Alex. 
Go ahead. 
Yeah. 
I was raising my hand before you asked the question. 
So, yeah, there you have it. 
But one thing I wanted to mention too, which was my panel that I hosted on Friday night at 7 o'clock, I just have to say it was such a great time. 
And we were talking about the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and changes to the Department of Justice's prosecutorial guidelines for essentially hacking offenses. 
And there was this massive change that happened on the 19th of May this year, which was for the DOJ now to reinterpret this particular, quote unquote, hacking statute to carve out ethical security research and ethical hacking from being a criminal offense. 
And so if there was an access of a computer for good faith security research, it's no longer to be prosecuted as a crime per Department of Justice policy, which is a huge change. 
We're able to pull together a panel that consisted of Sagar Ravi, who is the co-chief of the Cybercrime Division with the U.S. Attorney's Office of the Southern District of New York here in Manhattan. 
We also had a supervisory special agent, Joel DeCapua, who also works in the FBI cyber division, as well as Jay Kramer, who's a retired supervisory special agent from the FBI and the managing director of the National Cyber Forensics Training Association, and who's also a private practice lawyer for a little while as well. 
And so we just had this real powerhouse team of people, you know, and I being, you know, the mental midget of the bunch, you know, in this particular group. 
And we had a great time. 
As luck would have it, the panel that was after ours or whatever was scheduled last in the evening had canceled. 
So we were able to spend almost two hours with a packed audience answering questions about the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. 
And Greg, something that you had said to me when we finished the panel, I know you were listening, you know, it really struck a chord with me. 
And, you know, we addressed things like, you know, really even controversial subjects like, well, you know, do these guidelines come too late? 
And had these guidelines been in place before, you know, would there have been a tragedy like Aaron Schwartz's? 
You know, and everybody responded to that and had heartfelt and I think really healing responses and kind of bridging the gap between the government and the hacker community, which I think is just so incredibly important. 
But, you know, one thing that you said to me, Greg, really struck me was that you could tell that everybody on stage was was a man of integrity. 
And and I have to say they felt the same way about Hope and the attendees. 
And the feedback that I got from them was, you know, that it was an incredible conference. 
They all want T-shirts. 
They all said that they're going to wear their Hope T-shirts very proudly. 
And one of the attendees once we were going through the vaccination check and getting his badge, you know, and, you know, a tall woman kind of in a goth type outfit on rollerblades came passing by and he just looked around and he said, wow, this is a really different conference, isn't it? 
This place is really cool. 
And so that just kind of set the stage for the rest of the weekend for me. 
And I know that all of my attendees that aren't normal, all of the members of the panel that I put together who aren't normal Hope attendees just had an awesome time. 
Now, Greg, I know you did a talk as well. 
You want to tell us something about that? 
Well, sure. 
This was sort of a mixture talk, but it was primarily about the technology involved. 
It was about the proof of vaccination credential that I was involved with with the Canadian government as someone that works for one of the provincial or territorial governments. 
And this is a really cool technology that basically uses a QR code to standardize how you can communicate whether you have the necessary vaccinations for a particular purpose. 
And so, as you can imagine, one side is, OK, how do we make this sort of foolproof and fraud proof so that someone presents this? 
Of course, it's not as easy to fake as one of those little vaccination receipt cards you get from, you know, Walmart or wherever you got vaccinated. 
And the other thing is, well, we'd like to be able to automatically apply the policy so that when you see one of these QR codes, you can have a little app or a, you know, program on your computer that says, OK, I've read in these vaccinations. 
Do they meet the requirements of wherever I happen to be? 
And of course, in New York, you have the Excelsior pass, which does the exact same thing, uses the same standard. 
And then there's an Excelsior scanner app that's used by places that need to confirm. 
So that's really what my talk was about, the technology involved, the technology of the apps, the ability to have policy, and the cooperation at the national and international level to make this happen. 
And there were two things that I think are good takeaways there. 
One is that the people I was involved with in the apps and the QR code are extremely privacy-preserving. 
And one thing that's neat and I learned a lot about is that the Apple and Google stores do a code review. 
And if you're doing something that's even remotely related to health care or COVID, they review the heck out of this thing. 
And they ask a lot of questions. 
You have to fill out a number of different forms. 
And if they have concerns that you're, for example, sharing data or storing data and you say you're not, then you can't even get it into the store. 
And so these apps do not store data. 
They don't turn on the camera. 
They disable screenshots. 
They do a whole bunch of stuff to preserve privacy. 
And that was really impressive. 
And the other thing - so privacy by design is what I'm talking about. 
And the other thing that I learned, because this was my first time working closely with the federal government, in this case it was Canada, but also these provincial and territorial, which are sort of the equivalent of states in the U.S. 
But all of these government folks, all they wanted to do was preserve privacy and make it easier for citizens to follow the guidelines. 
There was no politicking. 
There was no grandstanding. 
There was very much a focus on getting things done. 
And it was a cooperation between the health policy people, so the people that run hospitals and healthcare and vaccination clinics and stuff like that, and the technology folks like me that are trying to say, okay, let's take what you want to do and get it all to work. 
So it was really kind of an inspiring process, and it was really a pleasure to share that process and the technology behind it with the HOPA audience. 
It was really fascinating, and just your involvement in that and why that's so relevant today, how it affects so many people. 
It's great to be able to share that. 
Now, Liz, you were behind the information desk for much of the conference. 
In fact, I think every time I looked there, there you were. 
I hope you got to experience a lot of the conference as well, but can you tell us what it was like being behind the info desk, what kinds of questions people would come up to you with? 
Sure. 
A lot of the questions that we got mostly were like, where's registration? 
Because when you walked in, the first desk you actually saw was information desk, not registration or the vaccine check. 
So it was go through the glass doors, desk is on the left, then come back out, make a right, that's registration. 
I usually said registration was the bigger desk that I was supposed to have, but a couple people found that a little funny at least. 
It was a lot of the people who were signing up for 4th Track Talk, they actually also came to us. 
We prepared those schedules for 4th Track for I think it was like the different rooms. 
They also had like printed out signage that we handled. 
And I guess like the unscheduled thing that I did, I actually wound up doing some resume reviews. 
I popped on Matrix, I was like, hey, you know, if you're looking to have your resume reviewed, I could do that. 
And I got to talk with a couple of people. 
And even though it's only been a couple of days post-conference, one person has a mentor already to go to their chosen company. 
Another person is already in the application process for his dream company, which was kind of wild for it to happen so quickly. 
And it's actually something that Dan and I were talking about making a whole workshop just going through resumes for Next Hope. 
Wow. 
That's pretty awesome. 
One thing I noticed with the info desk this time, it was so much more on the main drag, so to say. 
Yeah. 
People had to pass by it before you had to sort of seek it out. 
But there, you know, it was - and it actually is an information desk too because St. 
John's has an information desk in that building. 
So we didn't have to make a new sign or anything like that. 
It already said information. 
So it just - it seemed to work out. 
People knew exactly where to go to ask questions. 
And I think they were well-directed to go wherever they needed to go. 
Thank you. 
But, wow. 
That was just one of many parts of the conference we didn't have before. 
We had a whole coffee shop to ourselves, which was kind of neat. 
We used that as an unscheduled track as well. 
We had - well, I guess we should talk about the T-shirts, the T-shirts from Stefan in North Macedonia. 
Yes. 
They really turned out great, I think. 
Yeah, they're absolutely beautiful. 
I've actually known Stefan because we go back on IRC for years. 
And he mentioned that he had done the art for them. 
I was like, oh, okay, yeah, sure. 
And I was like - it took me a couple of minutes to like, wait a minute. 
And I know this person. 
But, yeah, they turned out so beautifully. 
And, yeah, it's - I mean, I can't go on more about them. 
Yeah, they're really nice. 
Yeah. 
Well, you can see what they look like by looking at the website, hope.net. 
I don't know if we have any extra, but if we do, we'll certainly let people know. 
A lot of people were involved. 
There was a lot of feedback from the organizers and the volunteer leaders, and Stefan was really patient with us as we incorporated different ideas. 
I know Greg had some great ideas that came along, helped us with our space design on the back, I think. 
And, yeah, it was - And you said something at closing ceremonies, which was just so amazing because there we were. 
We had some people on the screen, and you said, you know, Stefan, I've never seen you before. 
And it was true because he's in North Macedonia. 
We're here. 
We work through email and sometimes maybe a Zoom call, though I don't think he was ever on a Zoom call. 
I talked to him once or twice. 
I had never heard his voice before and I had never seen him. 
So it was that kind of a conference where you're just working with people, but you don't necessarily see them or certainly you don't get to hang out with them. 
But I think we made that work. 
But one thing that we really were able to prove is that we have space. 
You know, we could easily have two or maybe three times as many people there, and now we know better ways to utilize the space and, you know, to try new things. 
And if we had, you know, five times as many people, there's more places we can go. 
It's a college campus. 
It just seems to keep expanding. 
So it's magic in that way. 
Oh, yeah. 
And I think a lot of people's experience, especially volunteers and people helping coordinate different parts of the event, were integrating it as much as they could. 
You know, what spaces were there, like you were talking about the info desk and so on. 
Just basically kind of making it our own, making it something that people would be, they would recognize as a hope fixture. 
And, yeah, the ergonomics of it were just sort of, we were figuring it out as we go. 
And a lot of people, I think, felt that that added space left room for a lot more creative and, I think, relaxing, which is what these kinds of events should be to some degree. 
Because a lot of people are working and trying to find time to get away and go and share with people they haven't seen in a while and watch some talks. 
So it's crucial that we take a little bit of a break. 
The same thing was true with having all the IT infrastructure and not having to build everything from the ground out. 
Yes, having resources is a good thing. 
Now, Greg, I know you have to get on a plane pretty soon, but we really have to talk about AV and the magic our team pulled together because that was nothing short of incredible. 
Well, of course, every time we do this event, it's a miracle and it's impossible. 
And we do it anyway because that's what we do. 
And in this particular instance at St. 
John's, we had a couple of rooms that were kind of shells. 
And we had an audiovisual team led by Chaos and Jason and a few other key people that are experienced in theater, they're experienced with electronics, they're experienced in different areas. 
And so they come in with a design, they rent a whole bunch of stuff from a number of different rental companies, things like draperies and lights and sound systems, and they make a plan and they show up and they build it on site. 
And I hope we get some photos out on the live stream. 
Of course, you'll be able to see that eventually on the YouTube as well. 
But these were theatrical-grade experiences. 
They had just fantastic lighting, wonderful sound system, booming, booming audio when we had some performances late at night. 
And it turned basically an empty shell into something like a concert venue. 
So really inspirational. 
And one thing that's neat about this, I want to make sure we talk a little bit about volunteering. 
One thing that's neat about this is that the AV crew, because they're so experienced, can take in volunteers that are relatively new. 
You know, they don't know too much. 
Maybe they're not even ready to hold a wrench or plug in some electricity. 
But these folks that are brand new can actually get a whole lot done in terms of laying out the cables and setting up the truss and helping to spot the ladders and stuff like that. 
And I like to tell people, this is how I got involved in Hope back in the year 2000 at H2K. 
I showed up and I was on the agenda, so I gave a talk, but I was kind of interested in helping out. 
And before I knew it, I was standing behind a camera. 
And before I knew it, I was talking with the AV lead and helping to break down. 
And the rest is history after that. 
So it was a fantastic experience and really, really wonderful production. 
And let's mention the streaming also. 
People saw the streaming. 
This was done by a group called Sonos, which we got introduced to by a conference called MagFest, another conference where we know some folks. 
So the Sonos group brought in a ton of AV gear, a whole wall full of laptops and cables and hard drives and all kinds of things. 
And these folks did a streaming experience, which was absolutely consistent with like a major commercial streaming operation that you would see for a $1,000 or $2,000 per person conference. 
So the production value of the conference this time on site and for streaming went up at least one or two notches. 
And it was thanks to the hard work of all these volunteers that brought in the fantastic equipment, experience, and also, as I said, invited volunteers to help out. 
And you're welcome, Mark. 
I'm here. 
Is that your flight? 
It's simply incredible what we're able to pull off when we have dedication and skill combined. 
And on that subject, you might be hearing the musical notes of Cameron Glass, who once again put together the intermission music between talks where you go from one track to another. 
And it just kind of defines the conference in so many ways. 
And in addition to that, we had all sorts of performances upstairs late at night, which were very well received. 
We had Radio Wonderland. 
We had Dent, who is also Cameron Glass, a whole bunch of others. 
Did anybody attend these conferences? 
I know it's kind of late for some of us. 
There's the inverse phase. 
The demo scene shows that were also extended from some talks. 
What was the other one? 
Friday night. 
Here's a program. 
We have printed programs, which is something else that many conferences don't do. 
But everybody was holding the printed program so they could see where they should go next and just how many things they had to choose from. 
It's great to be virtual, but it's also good to have physical paper sometimes. 
Yeah, but this is unscheduled stuff. 
Oh, it's unscheduled. 
I'm sorry. 
That's not on paper. 
I noticed that Greg is not with us anymore, so maybe he was forced onto his plane. 
Oh, no, I see light. 
He's probably running down the hallway now. 
Okay, I guess now is as good a time as any since we're running out of time. 
We will be on overtime at 8 o'clock on YouTube, but let's talk about YouTube because if there is any negative part of the conference, it was at one point during Saturday night when we had this really incredible talk that was focusing on hacker representation in both TV and cinema. 
It was fascinating. 
A lot of people were watching it. 
A lot of people all around the world were watching it, but Google decided, Google owns YouTube, they decided that this was running afoul of their ultra-paranoid copyright restrictions because we were using fair use to show clips of movies and TV shows, and we got one warning, and then five minutes later, they shut down the entire stream. 
And by shutting down the entire stream in that particular track, what they did was they wiped away the ability for anybody to go back and see talks that had already happened. 
And there was absolutely nothing that we could do about it, except hope that it didn't happen again, because if it happened a second time, they would have cut off all three of our streams, and we wouldn't be able to post again for a full week, including that this show wouldn't be able to air on YouTube at 8 o'clock. 
So it's just, it's insane, it just shows how evil Google has become with this really, really restrictive policy that they have, where people are afraid to even show an image for a second. 
I guess it's an indication of just where we have to apply pressure. 
Today, we were looking into how to review what happened, and there's a process on YouTube where you do that, and we followed all the steps, and they said, you can review your material to see if you want to repeal, and we got to the page where we were supposed to review the material, and they simply said, thank you for reviewing the material. 
Do you want to repeal? 
We never got to see the material. 
Very Soviet-esque, you know. 
We were not able to actually look at the evidence. 
We were just told we were guilty. 
So that was something. 
I don't want to spend too much time on that. 
It was an outside source that just didn't get who we were. 
Typical. 
Typical, I guess. 
Greg, I see you're back. 
It looks like you're on a plane. 
Is that true? 
Yes, I am. 
Thanks to the miracles of modern technology, I actually dropped off the airport Wi-Fi and got onto the mobile network as I walked down the gangway. 
So I'm comfortable here probably for another five or ten minutes with you. 
So I won't join off the hook, but I don't think we support streaming on the aircraft yet. 
Probably not, but if anyone's going to find out, it'll be you. 
Since we're in the last couple of minutes, and Liz, since you don't have video, I'm going to give you the opportunity to say some last words, and anyone else, just raise your hand. 
Go ahead, Liz. 
Sure. 
If you're wondering, you know, if you're, like, nervous about volunteering, please do. 
This has been the fourth Hope I've attended and the third I volunteered at. 
It's always such a great experience. 
Please, please do. 
The conference needs volunteers to run, and we could always use the help. 
You don't need to know how to, you know, hack the government or anything ridiculous like that. 
You know, just being able to be there with a smiling face and giving someone directions, that can be a big help. 
Also, I just want to give a special shout-out to the attendees, because this would not have been as excellent as it was if it wasn't for the people who are attending and making that warm, welcoming environment. 
It was absolutely healing after the 2018 conference, absolutely healing. 
That's what we all needed. 
We all needed. 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
And, you know, I'm taking this energy, and I'm putting it toward, you know, a thousand different projects that needed to happen. 
So it's going to get busy for me, but that's a good thing. 
I like being busy. 
What a terrific audience we had. 
They were just so incredible, really into it. 
No incidents that I'm aware of, and just everything that the hacker community can be, and it's through them that we're going to build something even bigger and better. 
Yeah, absolutely. 
And, but to do that, we need people. 
We were, I'll be honest, we were short. 
Oh, yeah, big time. 
This was a miracle. 
We had some people commit to being at InfoDesk, you know, my usual friends, who unfortunately for a variety of reasons couldn't make it. 
Yeah. 
So on Sunday, it was just basically, you know, three people. 
So I just hung out and let my other people go to talks, because I was fine. 
And it was me and the glass wall, and, you know, that was fine. 
We're down to our last couple of seconds. 
Everybody is welcome to join us in overtime in a few minutes. 
But, Greg, you're actually on an airplane that might be taking off. 
So I'm going to give you a second to say any final words. 
Well, thanks very much. 
I wanted to go back to the artwork and talk about the symbolism behind that. 
So a lot of people that are listening to Off the Hook every week on WBAI, wonderful WBAI, know that this is a radio show that's part of an organization, 2600. 
Hope is part of the same organization. 
This is an organization with beliefs about the value of science, about the value of being backstated, about following guidelines for your own personal health, and the symbolism with the owl, and then also with the pioneer plaque on the back of the T-shirt. 
This is really all about saying that this is an event that stands for some values and is open to a whole lot of different interpretations of, you know, what might make a great conference. 
What we found was that the attendees that showed up not only bought into that, you know, not only were, you know, happy to go along with that essence, but also they were really there. 
I felt that attendees were really there to build a community. 
People have been locked up in COVID land for a while, and they wanted to get out, enjoy each other, build that community, and think a little bit about how to build a brighter future for themselves. 
So this was, to me, very tangible at the event and very much appreciated. 
And it went all the way from the symbolism through the opening ceremonies and messaging before that all the way through to the end of the conference. 
And that, to me, was - it's always life-changing, but that, to me, was extra inspirational to have the attendees with that approach to this event. 
Well, I can't thank all of you enough for making this happen, and we are going to continue the conversation at 8 o'clock on Channel 2600 on YouTube. 
We'll try to get Greg. 
He'll be on a plane, but we'll see if we can make that happen. 
And, of course, we'll be taking your phone calls, which are already coming in. 
Just a final note, thank you to Queens. 
Queens, the most awesome borough in the country. 
And also, Norman Lear is 100 today. 
So I think the two of those things can sort of combine into our closing piece. 
O-T-H at 2600.com is our email address. 
We'll see you next week, and we'll see you in a few minutes on YouTube. 
And enjoy our closing theme tonight in honor of Queens.