phone calls so if you have questions this is your golden opportunity to let management knows your questions and how you feel once again this is a report to the listener tonight at 10 p.m from the wbai's management team okay stay tuned for off the hook coming up this is wbai new york 99.5 fm and wbai.org online the number you have dialed is not in service at this time please check the area code and number and dial again the number you have dialed is not in service at this time or may have changed to a different area code please check the area code and number and dial your call again the telephone keeps ringing so i ripped it off the wall i cut myself while shaving now i can't make a call we couldn't get much worse but if they could they would one day we'd bomb for the best to expect the worst i hope that's understood one day we'd go so and the very good evening program is off the hook Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening joined tonight by Kyle oh yeah yes come in you got a loose connection there it sounds like you do have a loose connection you know what I'll work on that yeah work on that while I introduce the people over in Skype land we have Rob T. 
Firefly there good evening you sound better than in person and we have Gila good evening and we also have Alex good evening and they're not all in the same room you'll have to figure out who's where because we're not going to tell you we're here for an hour this week no overtime I'm sorry we have no overtime on YouTube scheduled for 8 o'clock like we usually do reason being Kyle and I specifically are going out of our brains with post-hope coordination specifically trying to get the damn videos up online and available boy you know audio editing is fun I like audio editing video editing is the demon out of hell I mean there's just no other word for it you basically you convert from one file format to another file format that takes a day and then you you try and save one hour that takes another day you know and that's the best software the worst software they go and they change the colors or maybe they they get the audio completely out of sync every single thing you could imagine has been has been hitting us and you know it's all because we we made some bad decisions you know we should have had this in a in a format that was much easier to deal with we should not have depended on YouTube these are all things we know better but people make mistakes and this is one of the things at least we have it all and at least we will get it all out there it's just we're tearing our hair out they might every talk might be in a different format no no no no no they're all going to be perfect we're taking great care to make sure that there's consistent stuff but we weren't quite prepared and there's a lot of tools involved we have experts from every major corner well here's what happens when you're dealing with a large number of people it doesn't matter that you got it right the last time because if you hand it off to somebody and they say oh I'm going to do it this way and and you're not aware they're doing it that way until it's been done yeah then then all kinds of unpredictable things happen so we're basically getting old versions of programs to see if maybe this will work better on that than something new that has all these features you don't need that slow things down it's it's it's one of a few hassles that happen after the conference but the thing is it was fun it was great everyone had a wonderful time and we will get this done soon yes it's like we're doing we have all of the recordings we're doing intensive surgery on everything to get it published as quickly as we can make it possible but be assured that it's correct it looks good you know from what we've been able to see so far it looks really good we're noticing yeah and informative and all rough spots you know it was it was a frenzy getting going in a new space but we were so glad to get back to looking at it because we were quite busy all volunteers and everybody with build up so catching some of what was said and and how it looks it's it's pretty encouraging so by this time next week hopefully we'll sound a lot happier I really hope so look forward to it it's going to be some long nights I mean it's only been a week you know so we're still recovering but yeah we should be doing better we know that if anyone has any suggestions out there on good software that works that does what you want edits MP4s and does it properly write to us OTH at 2600.com we'd love to hear all kinds of differing opinions on that okay let's talk about breaches there have been a bunch of breaches because that's what happens Justice Department is investigating a data breach of the federal court system Alex this might interest you the federal court system has been breached yeah according to the Justice Department they basically this information was released on Thursday a House Judiciary Committee Chair Gerald Nadler from right here in New York told fellow lawmakers that three hostile foreign actors attacked the U.S. 
court's document filing system I hope there's nobody out there that thinks that we're talking about actual actors from like England or something no we're not we're talking about what that means is Alex can you explain it better than I can it's not it's not people it's it's countries and entities it could be people it could be people but it's probably nation states or something like that yeah I mean these are what are known as threat actors right or as we used to call them way back in the day bad guys right so the threat actors also known as the bad guys like that guy in Westworld that guy in Westworld with the hat that's he's a threat actor yeah the Ed Harris character is that you're talking about I think so I'm bad with names but yeah he's mean yeah yeah yeah the bad guys those are the actors nobody's putting on a show but these are are generally known as threat actors okay which is you know a better way of describing them than saying hackers right well I mean that's a word that is bandied about quite a bit and misused in many ways I'm sure we'll get to some of those tonight as well but this basically is a system security failure in case you didn't already know that that happened back in early 2020 now these comments were at a committee hearing on oversight of the Justice Department's National Security Division which is in danger of losing at least one of those names it was the first public disclosure of the hack Nadler said the committee learned in March about the startling breadth and scope of the breach which was separate from the SolarWinds hack revealed in late 2020 remember that one SolarWinds involved Russian government-backed hackers infiltrating the networks of over a dozen U.S. 
federal agencies for much of 2020 including the federal court systems this is different Assistant Attorney General for National Security Matthew Olson testified to the committee that NSD is working very closely with the Judicial Conference and judges around the country to address this issue and committed to updating the committee on the investigation as it progressed a committee aide said that Nadler's questions came after the committee received a briefing on the attack noting that the sweeping impact it may have had on the operation of the Department of Justice is staggering the aide was granted the aide was granted anonymity in order to discuss a private briefing yeah Representative Sheila Jackson Lee of Texas pressed Olson for more details on how many cases have been impacted by the breach I would expect your preparation and for us to be able to get that information as quickly as possible in a setting that would be appropriate but this is a dangerous set of circumstances that has now been publicly announced and we need to know how many were dismissed she said Nadler questioned Olson on whether the breach had in any way affected cases pursued by the NSD and Olson testified he could not think of anything in particular and Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon is a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee he wrote a letter on Thursday to the Administrative Office of the U.S. 
Courts expressing serious concerns that the federal judiciary has hidden the consequences of the data breach from Congress and the public the federal judiciary has yet to publicly explain what happened and has refused multiple requests to provide unclassified briefings to Congress boy I mean you know already there are all kinds of scandals with you know missing text and things like that but you know not being forthright forthcoming with details on this kind of a breach seems like serious do you agree Alex? 
yeah I do I do think it's you know it can potentially be very serious because we but we don't know what the implications of this are just yet on the other hand it's got to be pretty serious I mean a breach of the case management system may seem like well you know all these documents are part of the public record anyway so what's the big deal right you know they're all just going to be filed and you know out there and available but that's not necessarily the case there are a lot of documents that are filed under seal for various reasons to protect the privacy of individuals to protect personal information to protect health related information there's also a lot of documents that may be filed under seal because they they could potentially contain damaging information trade secrets classified information so there's any number of reasons why sophisticated cyber adversaries also known as threat actors also known as bad guys sometimes erroneously called hackers would go after this type of information from the federal judiciary I mean there's if you think about the federal courts right I mean federal courts are really just a publicly funded dispute resolution system and there's a lot of really important disputes that happen and not all those documents are public so yeah this could be a very interesting breach to watch unravel in the public I find it somewhat troubling because the federal judiciary as Senator Wyden noted was not particularly forthcoming about the details of this breach and if the federal judiciary is not forthcoming about the details of a breach then to whom can you complain to compel them I was going to ask you that who did they answer to they're the people that you complain to generally yeah I mean they're at the top of the food chain so to speak when it comes to legal persuasiveness so the federal judiciary if you think about the independent federal district courts the southern district of New York and Manhattan the eastern district of New York and Brooklyn and Long Island the federal trial level courts they would answer to the circuit courts so those would all be part of the first circuit Massachusetts other bits of New England would be part of the I'm sorry New York would be part of the second circuit Massachusetts would be part of the first circuit etc so they would answer to the circuit courts the lower courts that is the circuit courts would then answer to the Supreme Court and that's it that's really where the buck stops after that I think is God almighty yeah God is in some way yeah of course yeah it's gotta be you know in God we trust of course but I mean it says it on the coins in any event the federal judiciary if we're talking about independent federal courts presumably the circuit courts or the Supreme Court could compel them to respond to Congress but if they're all the Supreme Court Alex really you think the Supreme Court gives a rat's ass about anything involving justice I'm sorry my cynicism is carrying me away but yeah I mean look I still believe in the Supreme Court as an institution I think recent events notwithstanding it's certainly taken a blow on account of the overturning of Roe v. 
Wade and completely disregarding the principle of stare decisis among many other things that have come out in the recent term but yeah I think the Supreme Court could compel a lower court to do the right thing and I think that they would but if they all act in one concerted manner to stop all Congress then what are they going to do then what's Congress going to do I noticed you know the Congress people that were involved in this Nadler and Jackson Lee and Wyden all Democrats so that right there tells me that something's going on that Republicans aren't taking as much of an interest in this for one reason or another well you know maybe I would also say to you know when it comes to anything that relates to data anything that relates to data breaches or the misuse or abuse of personal information and data Senator Ron Wyden is is really second to none in Congress when it comes to hounding the bad actors making sure that there's some kind of accountability following up on this when nobody else does I mean he's always the one he's the tip of the spear of the Senate when it comes to policing bad behaviors and data so it doesn't surprise me whatsoever that he's out in front there and it also you know bears mentioning perhaps that you know one of our former guests on the show Nancy Bass Wyden the owner of the Strand bookstore is actually married to Senator Ron Wyden so you know I do know him pretty well all right well speaking of bad actors or threat actors there's a threat actor out there known as Adrestia I think I'm pronouncing it right forgive me if I'm not and also the other the other character in this little play is known as MBDA MBDA is a major European developer and manufacturer of missiles okay our action begins with the group calling themselves Adrestia saying that they took 60 gigabytes worth of files from MBDA including secret information on the company's involvement in quote closed military projects unquote the threat actor Adrestia posted information about the breach on several hacker forums claiming they found a critical vulnerability in MBDA's network infrastructure that allowed them to siphon the 60 gigabytes of data currently the volume of downloaded data is approximately 60 gigs the downloaded data contains confidential and closed information about the employees of your company which took part in the development of closed military projects of MBDA and about the commercial activities of your company in the interest of the Ministry of Defense of the European Union the four letters by the way in MBDA represent three French Italian and British companies that merged to become the MBDA Matra by Dynamics and Alinea now there is a response to this the European missile developer and manufacturer denies being hacked but they admit that they lost data I don't know how confident that makes anybody they say that the hackers tried to blackmail the company with non-sensitive information obtained from an external hard drive following the company's refusal to yield to this blackmail threat and pay a ransom demand the criminal group has spread information on the internet making it accessible for a payment that's according to an MBDA spokesman who told an outfit known as Cyber News MBDA has contacted Italian authorities to investigate the attack and the company said it will take legal action against what it sees as a criminal act of blackmail they request that the hackers identify themselves so that proceedings can move forward because they have no idea who they are it would help if they tell them it's just yeah it's you know it's a gentleman's game here so let us know who you are and we'll come after you fair it sounds fair yeah well you know this is this is an interesting one too because he threat actors or the bad guys here trying to convince a company that it was breached when it wasn't breached by showing them data that they obtained through acquisition of an external drive is is pretty new to me at least and you know they might have been trying to claim that they they continue to have some access and would extort the company in various ways there but i will tell you that the idea that an external drive only contains 60 gigabytes of data is is also kind of strange i mean maybe this was some kind of thumb drive that's not a lot of data to be on an external drive no it sounds like a lot but it's really not you know a few years ago that would have been an immense amount but 60 gigs that's nothing it it really isn't all that much i mean yeah with the rate at which you know that's you know i'm being facetious here but you know at the rate at which things are going it's like 10 word documents you know and it's absolutely ridiculous but i mean it is a lot of data but if you think about it in the context of something like the panama papers which i think was 2.6 terabytes of data that was a massive amount of data and if you recall back in 2016 at hope and bring up hope again you know i i gave a talk about the panama papers and my theory on how the panama papers this data was exfiltrated and stolen was not that somebody had breached the the law firm of mossack fonseca because 2.6 terabytes of data is a massive amount of data that would be really hard to exfiltrate even through a really fast network connection and let's say you know you had a hundred megabit connection and you were using that at full throttle well then people would probably notice because the network would would degrade there'd be a lot of latency in the network things would slow down so my theory that i presented at hope was that in all likelihood somebody walked away with an external drive somebody either hooked up an external drive maybe perhaps a rogue it person who wanted to become a whistleblower and coincidentally i think it was last week as a matter of fact the whistleblower who still has never been identified in the panama papers spoke again i think to sudeutsu uh and was talking about you know how he was you know amazed at the the impact of the panama papers and and how it's made ripples around the world and especially in the context of of the ability to track russian assets and oligarchs in the context of the the ukraine war so you know you never know where this data is going to end up or or be useful but um to go back to the original point here um you know external drives are something companies really have to keep a handle on that's true that's true and 60 gigs is you know nothing to sneeze at but uh it's not that much if you're if you're looking to cripple an entire company um i'd expect to see more than that unless unless i used uh you know the zip format maybe maybe they compressed it but again not that impressive uh by the way uh alex's talk um from that conference can be found online as well and i believe it's about two gigs in size so uh that gives you a sense too so uh rob dealer did you have anything to uh to to add i haven't heard from you in a few minutes well i i uh i do like the name of this outfit adrastia which uh for those unfamiliar is the name of a goddess from the greek pantheon um the goddess of inevitable fate uh pressing necessity and the inescapability of punishment whoa that's a good one yeah not being punished she also uh that's something that i think we all strive for yeah she also hung around with uh nemesis the goddess of divine retribution and uh you know has some fun stories associated with her um on uh on on uh completely off the subject but uh hey guys we've been away for a while it's good to see you again yes um what what have we missed you look similar to the way you to each other have we been spending too much time together no that's not what i meant but i guess you know i could see it if i squint my eyes but uh no it's it's it's been a while you're right and i guess you know we just kind of lose track of all the things that have been you know going on around us it's just it's a whirlwind um so uh yes welcome back um and um um hopefully our listeners have joined us as well it's indeed it's it's good to be back it is good to be back we we had a we had a uh bout with the covid um finally after uh two and a half years streak of not getting it uh we we decided to break the streak and we were out of commission for a month or so a month wow that's that's that's uh that's classic covid you got there we were stricken and um i said to someone yes we declared our independence from not getting covid um i first tested positive on the fourth of july so it just kind of wrecked the rest of the month um but we're back and we're back that rest of the month included all of hope so uh that that really sucks i'm i'm so sorry we'll have to do another one just for you guys in a couple of years um and on that note uh you know we've been we've been um talking to a lot of people who did attend the conference and um it looks like uh hope was not a super spreader which is what we were shooting for you know people were wearing masks and we made sure people were vaccinated there there have been a couple of people who have gotten covid since traveling uh to new york and that's inevitable when you travel some people are going to catch something from people in various places but um and i'm crossing my fingers here knocking on on wood of all sorts uh but i i'm hoping that um the conference itself was not a source uh of course um you know we'll keep monitoring but it's been a couple of weeks now no it's actually been about 10 days right yes i've lost track um but the important thing is that it's still out there uh covid is still out there we still have to take precautions especially in large groups and i just hope that uh we continue to do that until it's truly behind us it is it is still a concern we we were both uh you know vaxxed early on and boosted and uh boosted careful always masking it's it's there and it's real and just be careful yeah had we not done so it it uh certainly would have been much worse on us but uh but you know we we dealt with it and uh yeah don't act like it's over because it's not yeah and uh you know i think biden expressed it well the the first time he he had covid a week ago uh as opposed to the second time which is now uh saying that um you know he's he's 80 years old practically 80 years old uh but um it's it's it's relatively minor the effects that it's having on him as opposed to his predecessor who had to be airlifted out of um uh out of the white house um because the vaccine the vaccine exists now and that's why it's so important to uh stay up to date on that and just pay attention to what's going on um health wise and you know i was just so thrilled at the conference to see so many people who took that seriously i mean everybody did everybody you know was was really good as far as following the guidelines and it didn't it didn't affect anyone adversely you know we all were able to have a great time and and participate and and hang out and of course it'd be better to not have to wear masks while doing that and one day we'll have that event but um so much better not to be hearing about a lot of people getting sick as has happened at other conferences where masks were not required prematurely thinking this was over absolutely and it was just a small uh bit of guidelines and and uh watching out for one another to make sure um people were handling it as as carefully as they could and that adherence it really really paid off and i heard a lot of stories things like you know people who hadn't been been uh to large events and and quite some time really appreciated that we had um helped people understand you know the importance of it and and and um made sure that people were uh taking precautions and we were checking some of that stuff so um i hope as you do that it really that it pays off for for what a wonderful event it was hey uh guess what's back winamp is back i just saw this article in gizmodo uh i'm gonna read the opening paragraph uh winamp died and then it came back then it died again now it's back once again as the first release candidate of the resurrected winamp 5.9 has been made available for download to a new generation who years ago transitioned away from mp3 files to streaming services you know i didn't know winamp was gone we use winamp on the show that's how we play our music winamp is great you know it's uh it's it's how you play mp3s i'm shocked to find out that uh most people today apparently don't even have mp3s anymore i thought mp3s were what replaced cds but apparently now mp3s have been replaced by streaming services that is a big mistake because if you replace your your actual um media that resides on your hard drive with something in the cloud it can go away at a moment's notice somebody can snap their fingers and say we no longer support this we no longer will allow this artist to be streamed on our platform and uh you add a look then because you don't have the actual material on on your device you're depending on a company to provide it for you you know this is something that um i i've been concerned about from the get-go with regards to to tv shows and movies and and and and records and books you know you have to have physical possession of it if you buy something you own it and this seems to be a recurring theme that we're seeing in everything from you know from automobiles to uh to entertainment um we don't seem to be learning the lesson because uh everyone is just streaming everything and not saving anything and not having any control yeah recognizing the amount of work that you put into creating your music and curating a collection that uh is yours is i i think it's getting lost in some of the hype around services like music as a service basically like a an online jukebox and uh you know we have space we have storage so why aren't people making files you know and and taking care of um to to have all that stuff and i think controlling your files you know the content that you're creating or that you have purchased or you know you want to own and and be able to move around on different devices and enjoy right in perpetuity i think um that's so crucial as well as some of the stuff we were talking about earlier the means of of editing whether it's imagery or um audio if you're recording audio you're a musician the ability to use a digital workstation or in video as well the means of production how to um to edit and and control your movie making ability i mean it's so crucial and important for society like uh broadcast and television so um now that the means of creating all of that is a lot more affordable and pervasive people people should take hold of it every one of our shows that we have ever done is available for download so you can have it so you can have it on your local device you know in case uh our our site goes away or in case uh something catastrophic happens there are copies that exist in other places that should be the the norm and it doesn't take much effort uh you know i have i have um uh vinyl and i have cds of the vinyl and i have mp3s from the cds that i ripped and i can also stream if i want to stream but that's you know it's redundancy it's a way of of having access in case you lose access to something else you're not dependent on anyone yes gila i mean it's redundancy but you know rob and i find ourselves in a mixed marriage um i have an iphone rob is an android user wow yeah i didn't know that i did not know that wow wow okay and one point of contention has been that um i as an iphone user i can't put music on my phone unless i purchase it from one specific place and download it in one specific way so despite the fact that i have a teeny tiny sim card sim card it's not a sim card it's a it's an s thank you an sd card sorry sorry um that has gigs and gigs and gigs of music on it i can't put it on my phone so this this quest that we've been on to simplify and streamline and have everything in one place is simply not available to you if you were an iphone user i would have to repurchase all of that music that i have that i have been getting and saving for all these years stuff that's out of print stuff that's unavailable and it is fascinating to me that there are systems that are trying to shift you to one particular vendor and cut you off from your own purchases and your own data well that's that's that's the thing i can't quite wrap my head around when you buy music what format do you get it in i get mp3s if i get it from amazon if i get it from that ukrainian site that i use i always have an mp3 i can always copy it listen to it on whatever device i want what what happens with with the mac world um there's the proprietary format through itunes and now wow i don't think that yeah i don't even think that it um is exclusively downloadable um if you own there was music i bought i don't know years ago and it's all in my apple id and it lives on my phone but i don't necessarily have local copies of it and i've stopped listening to music on my phone rob because rob i'm sorry do you still have the intervention chairs because we might need to do something later this is we have to pull her out of the mac world this is this is crazy what strikes me is that if you wanted to perform like a private party for your relatives or something and and you know dj gilo is in the house oh yeah and you wanted to mix up some of your hard hard earned you know uh content uh with some music you know performance software or on another type of device to play out and and do your set not you know to to make any money often not for you know uh broadcast or anything but just to privately enjoy mixing up your own stuff you would have you wouldn't have it in a format that you could manipulate it and that that's what really bothers me with a record you could you could scratch it if you wanted you know you could play it backwards or or uh uh really fast um that that tactile nature of even having the file now is it's just it's bizarre that it's um something people will um accept wow um okay let's move on to some listener mail you can write to us oth at 2600.com we uh read all email sometimes we even read it on the air as we are about to do now hey folks just a little bit of info about the google copyright policy for music versus spoken word emmanuel said how can it violate you for your own voice well last week we had an interesting discussion on overtime about that um well it hits you if you play an instrument with your own hands too but it's hit or miss uh pink floyd happens to usually be a hit i'm talking about very obscure songs like the gunner's dream and fearless i got copyright claims on both of those songs which i included in lesson videos not the studio recordings just myself playing the chords even if i play it in the wrong key at the wrong tempo or sing the words incorrectly my god of course roger waters uh isn't sitting in his ivory tower say haha google is doing my bidding he probably doesn't have any say in the matter but some artists artist songs get consistently caught in the algorithm way more than others like queen eagles floyd especially the beatles and they're they're well-known blockers this is probably a deliberate corporate decision the only video that i've had actually taken down as opposed to simply tagged with a copyright claim is motley crew in fact i've even had copyright claims on my own compositions oh my god what a nightmare i i am too small scale to get monetized in the first place so it just doesn't make sense to challenge the claims uh as the corporate people obviously wouldn't help anyway yeah but someone else is getting monetized on on your work apparently uh anyway keep putting uh pressure on these parasitic monopolies the people behind these things need to be made as uncomfortable and as embarrassed as possible they know what they're doing is wrong thanks ian thank you ian for that amazing letter and yeah i think you hit the nail on the head it's it's insane what goes on not only in youtube but just in the whole uh google-fied um uh internet where people live in fear of um of upsetting the corporate giants uh with their copyright claims uh whistling a tune or or humming something or having a snippet of a song from a car radio as you walk by play on on on something that you're recording it's not normal this is not normal what's normal is sharing music sharing thoughts uh and um not living in perpetual fear of of the algorithm finding you yes rob yeah um just uh just this week i was uh communicating with someone who was an artist that i followed years and years ago they made uh mashups they made uh bootleg mixes they made uh creative remixes reuses of you know existing audio video material and uh i was trying to get hold of a piece they had made and was which was no longer on the internet anymore and so i got in touch with them and uh they said back to me that basically they they got out of the uh hobby of making such work because the instant they would put any of it up anywhere it would immediately get copyright claimed content id'd and uh and it just wasn't worth the hassle anymore and i think that's a shame because remixes are a thing remixes are are a valid uh form of artwork um i do creative remixing myself of things i i love i love the art forms that that come of that sort of thing and here's someone who was basically drummed out of uh you know there wasn't even money in play it was uh they were just drummed out of the hobby um by the robots that uh that work for the music companies and i think that's really sad i think something of value has been lost um with that person and and every case like that and uh you know when you're putting up a video of say uh a hope talk and you know there's a small snippet of music in there that uh that trips some alarm somewhere and suddenly the entire talk as a work is uh is taken down or muted or otherwise affected um there's a lot of uh collateral damage in this uh war on uh you know copyrighted material that's that's out there it's really it's it's it's regretful there's one thing though um if you're doing something like this as a hobby and it's not a source of income there's no reason you can't continue to do it you just can't post it on those particular hostile sites you know like youtube uh because they'll immediately take it down but there's no reason to curtail your artistic freedom even if if you're doing it just for yourself or your friends or you're you're distributing it in some other way uh the answer should never be to stop being creative that's that's my opinion on alex go ahead yeah i mean i i tend to uh agree mostly with with rob on this and and i also think that this is something that uh volterra brought up a bit last week when when he was on as part of our uh hope reunion show where he mentioned that there were these uh i think mostly in the european union concepts or rather ideas that all of these platforms over a certain size should have to have some kind of filtering algorithm or system that detects copyright infringement and we talked about this i think even a couple of years ago on the show but the problem that i have with all of this is that it's not the detection or the algorithm itself but it's the presumptions made based on the detection and that's you know let's say hope is a perfect case in point here or you know frankly almost anything in that if let's say you detect uh a metallica song or you know bob dylan or whatever you take a snippet of it it detects the song and it automatically presumes that it's copyright infringement instead of you know presuming some kind of innocent use like fair use you know where you can take a snippet of something and use it you know in a non-commercial way which most of what these these videos are doing on youtube are are non-commercial i mean they might be generating some kind of ad revenue and most of that ad revenue is going back towards the the platform or google whatever it is but i think just the presumption that a user is infringing a copyright is what's wrong and that's what should be turned on its head there should be a presumption of there being an instance of fair use and then maybe a notification that would go over to the copyright holder the copyright holder then could take some kind of affirmative action and say hey i reviewed that video and it is infringing because it uses the entirety of my song but let's say you have a 10 second snippet of enter sandman by metallica in in a video well there should be a presumption that's that that's fair use because you know it's a non-commercial video and it's a tiny snippet and then it should be beholden the burden rather should be on the copyright holder i think after a notification to come out and say otherwise well you know part of the problem is that when you say copyright holder oftentimes it's not the person who wrote the song oftentimes it's it's a company you know yeah faceless uh organization who couldn't care less yeah and it's just computers answering computers but you know what i always wonder about these uh these particular issues what is the concern what is the worry if i if i had to ask the people on the other side okay so this person has your song in the background of their video where they're skateboarding what are you worried about specifically that somebody is going to copy that song uh with all the other sound effects in the background and not buy the cd or or or the streaming service that you offer because that will be good enough for them to just have it in the background with all kinds of street noise is that what you're worried about what is it that you're trying to prevent maybe you know if we if we speak about this as human beings instead of just accepting this bizarre uh scenario where if you know three notes of a song um are heard all of a sudden you're committing copyright infringement you know i i just want to understand the thinking is there any thinking you know it really is uh it's it's a crazy situation we find ourselves in it really feels like it's all or nothing because they they can't expend the resource or it's not financially feasible for their uh model to expend the resource to police a case-by-case use to prevent the abuse of allowing it like if you allow it because you're like yeah you know people need to be creative and then um you know it's abused wholesale not that it won't be how do you define abuse what is abuse i mean to me abuse is if somebody puts out a commercial song and starts selling it and saying it's theirs you know that's abuse like if someone monetizes beyonce's album on a youtube channel right now and um and uh has the whole the whole thing up there on their channel and they're claiming i don't know that that that they have a right to to host it and monetize i don't know if that's a good example because there's probably 10 000 people doing that right now anyway um i i tread carefully yeah but yeah all right all right all right so that's a bad scenario but like if somebody's if somebody's content is is um if somebody's just got an account where all they do is put still images and albums right and and they're somehow monetizing it and taking the views and and they're you know good rips or whatever kind of uh file that they're uploading um youtube will like consider that abuse because they're monetizing a channel with copyrighted content and uh recoup it they can't let that they can't let them do that because the musicians and other entities won't will come down hard on them if they're just using the music and someone else's photography and making money off that i can see that i i i don't see shutting it down completely because it is an you know a derivative expression of of creativity but they shouldn't be profiting solely from somebody else's creativity yes rob funny you should mention beyonce um there was there was a big to do on uh social media this week because beyonce's new song came out and someone noticed that there were 24 uh writers credited it wasn't that someone noticed it it was diane warren which is also terribly relevant in that context because diane warren is a celebrated songwriter who then okay carry on with your story but this will become relevant okay um i i didn't know that bit of it but uh but the the issue behind this was that how can one song have uh 24 different authors and what happens is it's the creative sampling issue because she used bits and pieces from other songs from existing material and sampled them in her song which is great but she is able to do this because she is beyonce she is the massive media franchise machine um with the power of uh you know the entire music industry behind her and this then becomes something that's uh very scary to people like me which is this is an art form that exists that's accepted as valid by that art form but it's only accessible to people with the wealth to do all this uh finagling and get all this legal guff together and you know i am not allowed to do that kind of thing she is um because there's money to throw at it but tell me about diane warren well first of all you used to be able to do that you know back in the days of public enemy uh there weren't these kinds of of restrictions that that limited it to only the rich and powerful go ahead so that was part of the thing because diane warren is a reasonably well-known oscar-winning grammy-winning songwriter you may not like her stuff but she is a songwriter and she basically does it herself so she went on social media after the album came out and said how were there 24 credited songwriters i don't understand it actually turned into a question of uh culture race about people having about sample culture and you know but how is it that beyonce is she credited also like the guys from right said fred because she used a snippet of i'm too sexy ergo the guys from right said fred are credited writers on whatever track it was but there were also people who were sampled on the album who were not having any thank you so i think i said like calice was upset that she sampled milkshake i think and um i think that sample's now been removed but what that does auditorily auditorially auditor audit in terms of the audio that word was not happening but yes what it means um on a side note i looked at my youtube channel there are 18 videos on my youtube channel six of them have been copyright claimed wow which i found fascinating now with regards to 24 uh writers though it was beyonce just being generous or was she required to credit all 24 of those because it does seem a little unusual that's a question i don't know the answer to but when you think about also the way that the music business is built now and when you have people who if you think about the brill building and the way that the songwriting business was built in the 1950s and 1960s where you had buildings full of people in their cubicles cranking out entire songs right but now you have people who just write hooks if you're writing a 10 note 30 second piece of music but you take 10 of those and put them together and that's a song yeah there's 20 people who wrote a song as opposed to two people but if you're writing hooks instead of that's the thing i think the the pieces of songs that you're writing and then putting them together that adds up to a lot of people really really it does and then you start crediting the people who invented the instruments you know and it really can add up um or we can just say this is derivative work uh everything is based on something else and that's that's evolution yes alex go ahead happy the final final word i think sure you know that i want to go back to this issue of you know why the platforms do this because i you know i think the more rights holders there are the more the more complicated this gets the more there's potential infringement and it all goes back to a law a manual with which you have some intimate familiarity the dmca the digital millennium copyright act right you know um and and the dmca states that any kind of platform or provider is going to be liable for the dissemination of copyrighted materials but there's something called safe harbor so so long as a platform removes access or takes down infringing materials after a copyright holder has given some notice that there is infringing material on their site then they're not liable for that infringing content so that the inverse of this or the converse of this always get them confused uh is that if platforms don't remove infringing content then they can be liable because there would be uh no safe harbor that would be protecting them now the issue then is you know okay well you know why don't they just wait for a copyright holder to raise their hand and say hey that's that's my copyrighted work that's playing in the background over there and the reason is it's just too they're too big in the volume and the velocity of the videos and and music that are on their platforms is immense so that it's too unwieldy for these platforms to rely on actual human beings to report to investigate and then remove content so they have to rely on algorithms to find what could be infringement presume it's in and preempt before there's anybody before anybody has investigated it so it's about shielding them from liability and maintaining safe harbor under the dmca you know the good bumper sticker would be keep your lawyer away from my art yeah i think a bit wordy but you know i'm sure we can refine it and and that's mine by the way i've already copyrighted it so don't try using that um okay so uh we are out of time but uh rob i know you have something to say about uh the special events coming up this friday yes indeed this friday uh 2600 meetings um are happening in all sorts of places go to 2600.com meetings um to see the ones that have been restarted since the uh since the lockdown days and uh get more information on possibly restarting one near you if it doesn't exist already now here in new york city uh we uh are back at the city group building used to be called the city court building uh and um i understand they've rebuilt the um the food court there and uh people are people are showing up on the first friday of every month between five and eight right yes indeed in the food court which is now called the hue um i think it's probably named after hugh grant or uh you know someone like that but um it is it is really nicely done up there's lots of good food and drink options for all uh palates and dietary requirements um come on down first uh friday of every month uh including this friday and if you are in a particular part of the world where you would like to start a 2600 meeting they generally take place the first friday of every month uh in in late afternoon early evening but we do have exceptions uh if they're if the case is compelling enough uh simply go to uh 2600.com slash meetings or write to us meetings at 2600.com uh generally we um we like to have meetings in a publicly available place like a food court uh something that people aren't restricted as far as getting into nothing in someone's home or a private property or anything like that uh the idea is to meet people meet new people and and and show uh the world what hackers are really all about we've been doing it since 1987 and uh took quite a hit during the pandemic but we're we're coming back we're coming back and uh every every month we get more meetings that are either starting fresh or that are resuming after a couple of years so hope to see you a bunch of you uh and at one of the meetings this friday and we'll be back again i believe next week at this time hopefully with overtime next week we don't have overtime this week because we're too damn busy making the videos uh and again write to us oth at 2600.com and we're off the hook it's emmanuel goldstein have yourselves a good night bye good night you yeah ooo You see the old man outside the seaman's mission He's just another hero from a land that doesn't care So how can you tell me you're not me? 
Don't you say to me, your sun don't shine And have you seen the old girl who walks the streets of London She ain't got no money and she's all dressed in rags And have you seen the old girl who walks the streets of London And she carries her old knickers into Barla Bean's bed So how can you tell me you're not me? 
Don't you say to me, your sun don't shine Well let me take you by the hand And lead you through your streets of London And I'll show you something you'll never understand Well let me take you by the hand And drag you through your streets of London And I'll show you something that'll make you really see Bye Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah No Yeah Yeah Yeah Let me take you by the hand And lead you through your streets of London And I'll show you something we'll never understand Let me take you by the hand And drag you through your streets of London And I'll show you something that I might really see