this radio station by calling 212-209-2950 again the number is 212-209-2950 or go to give to the number to wbai.org online all right it's 7 p.m stay tuned for off the hook coming up due to local telephone company trouble in the area you are calling your call cannot be completed at this time please try your call later 078p the telephone keeps ringing so i ripped it off the wall i cut myself while shaving now i can't make a call we couldn't get much worse but if they could they would want to leave mom for the best is paid for worst i hope that's understood so so so so so so and a very good evening the program is off the hook it's emmanuel goldstein here with you joined tonight by kyle yes indeed i am i'm i'm present good good and uh over in skype land we have rob t firefly good evening we have gila good evening and we have alex good evening well um uh you're signaling mccann what you want me to do please tell me oh the skype is a little bit hot a little bit hot thank you okay you're well you're waving your hands as if it's that's english and i don't i don't know what that's radio uh semaphore no but i didn't know what you meant okay sorry folks um yeah we haven't been on the air in a while so we're out of practice uh yeah another two week gap uh i guess we should welcome all our new listeners because the only people tuning in now probably tuned in by accident so yeah this is off the hook we've been on the air since 1988 but uh occasionally you'll find us in 7 pm on wednesdays and uh we talk about technology and hackers and uh security and all kinds of fun things like that and we aren't afraid to say what's on our mind right ever yeah um anybody have any business i want to take care of before we get started no we good um go ahead rob there's there's uh go ahead there are things on our mind i'm just uh you know sort of generically grateful for the people who have kept us going here on wbai over those years since 1988 and uh how important it is to keep wbai going and uh doing its thing with us but also with everyone else and all our other uh colleagues at wbai that's right every hour of every day actually except for uh except the middle of the day for the next week or so i believe when they're doing transmitter maintenance uh except for that um this radio station always has something different on and uh if you don't like one program just wait a little bit and something else will come on and you might not like that too but then you'll like something a lot and then you'll like something even more after that and before you know it you're calling all the time to support wbai because we've been on the air since 1960 doing things like this when nobody else would dare yeah let that sink in okay uh we have some um uh interesting news that's um that's coming down the pike um where do we start okay um i'm gonna go out on a limb here um and talk about this this particular thing i might not land on the right side i might have some disagreements with people here but there's this new tv show apparently called ring nation and there was a piece in vice that just ran uh i'll just read the beginning of it on tuesday 40 civil rights groups published an open letter calling an mgm calling on mgm television executives to cancel the studio's upcoming reality show ring nation which will feature former nsa employee and comedian wanda sykes wanda sykes worked for the nsa yeah i i'm sure uh you knew that i didn't know that i thought she was a comedian it's a great way to get into comedy no i didn't know that i didn't ever know that don't make like you do then okay so anybody know wanda sykes used to work for the nsa okay uh well that's what it says here this is the first time seeing that uh former nsa employee and comedian wanda sykes presenting humorous surveillance footage captured from ring doorbell cameras now the groups say the studio is normalizing and promoting amazon rings dangerous network of surveillance cameras uh which along with the neighbors app violate basic privacy rights uh fuel surveillance-based policing that disproportionately targets people of color and threatens abortion seekers and enables vigilantes to surveil their neighbors and racially profile bystanders um okay you know this is the kind of thing that i i i really think makes us look bad uh because what would i mean correct me if i'm wrong but this is a program where people have their little ring doorbell things they see something funny and they send it in here uh here we're basically bringing up uh privacy rights we're bringing up uh um all kinds of surveillance abortion seekers uh people who are disenfranchised people of color and all that ah it's it's they're sending them in voluntarily it's not like they're being taken from their homes without their consent they bought the product yes i know it's owned by amazon i know amazon is evil but when when you put yourself out here like this all the rest of the country sees is that these people are trying to cancel a popular tv show just because they don't like the product look there are important issues here and and ring surveillance is an important issue but it doesn't mean that we should just uh try and shut down anything related to it that involves what people are doing themselves with the devices that they bought am i getting this wrong am i am i not understanding the story uh go ahead oh well the first thing i was going to say was wanda sykes worked for the nsa 30 years ago okay she has not worked for the nsa since 1992 it was her first job out of college she worked there for five years then her comedy career started taking off she left the nsa so that's piece number one it's 30 years ago so i think job out of out of college was was uh nsa my first job out of college was a dishwasher wow okay fine i'm sorry go ahead so i i think that's a piece of it and honestly you know if we're going to be talking about what amazon thinks will be an interesting corporate synergy cross-promotional version of america's funniest home videos which i'm assuming is assuming is where they're trying to go with ring nation right you know is that more or less problematic than something like cops than something like pd live pd um all these pieces that really people have no control over appearing in um i i think that's an interesting pardon me add a hiccup um yes but it looked like you were going to say something well i'm if you know cops i definitely have issues with uh but again if if you try and and and take cops off the air it doesn't land right with most people in the country they just see people taking a tv show off the air because they don't like what they what they see on it rather than attacking what's wrong with the show week by week and and offering counterpoints and things like that but just you know silencing it because you don't like the product uh i just don't think that's that's the right move now you know one thing i i would have a problem with uh this is called ring nation does that mean that if you have a different kind of doorbell app that records people coming to your door and yes they do have control if they're on the on the thing if they come to your door uh they're going to be recorded that i mean you know i i i wouldn't be surprised if i was recorded knocking on somebody's door i just wouldn't be surprised these days but uh if you use something else that's not ring does it is it disqualified because it's not the right brand i'd have a problem with that so you know that's how i could get on board this this uh this bandwagon yeah go ahead sorry well it just seemed to it could spread more uh awareness and uh making it um more open to other uh things that are surveilled privately and uh depends on how they're talking about this particular service and maybe they under the people's understanding will be a little bit deeper of of the the issues at play instead of people uh tearing it down like before it's even been out there at all well that's the thing it hasn't aired yet so uh you know i don't know what the format is going to be i mean this whole thing of wanda sykes working for the nsa why they mention that in the story why they say former nsa employee if if that was her first job out of college and and it was it was 30 years ago was it 30 years ago and a long time ago and uh i don't think she carries that around with her today and i never heard that before it just seems like kind of unfair ammunition to be using in the story uh to make you think okay this is this is bad and i you know i certainly believe that the ring um network that police use is a very bad thing where where they basically uh is it without the permission of the people who have the cameras or do they do they consent to it see i don't have a ring device so i don't know these things alex do you know i think in certain instances or at least there's been reporting that in certain instances the ring surveillance footage was provided to law enforcement without the consent or knowledge of the customer and that's because a lot of that data is stored in amazon's cloud so you know it's not necessarily on a local device so they have access to that and my my beef here is i think similar to yours emmanuel and that i i don't see it necessarily as inherently evil or bad but there is this something that's deeply unsettling to me which is the the notion of surveillance as as entertainment and and the normalization of the fact that we're always on camera everywhere we go at any time forever when you come up to somebody's house you have i mean just this this expectation of privacy that we had 20 30 years ago doesn't exist and can't even be fathomed by people that were born i think you know after 1990 so it's a it's it's a terrible thing i think to normalize well that's a great point but if you don't air something like this the cameras are still there all you're doing is making so people aren't aware that the cameras are there if you have a show like this everyone's going to know there's cameras everywhere it doesn't change the circumstance but it does raise awareness about it yeah perhaps but i mean the the flip side of that is the cameras are out there and hey they're funny this is great this is entertainment and so it it normalizes it and makes it fun or funny in the sentence and and entertainment and i think that's that's the danger here from a privacy perspective is that you know the cameras are still there but they're not seen as dangerous anymore they're seen as fun well it's it's really the the opinion of the person who owns the camera if they think it's fun you know if they it's it's if the police department was the ones um uh sending in the footage saying look what happened at this particular door yeah that'd be a huge problem but these are people that have their own cameras saying uh this is i thought this was funny the other day out on long island this cat came home after several weeks out and rang the doorbell and it was captured on ring i mean do you want us to be deprived of moments like that i know what a great time to be alive huh it's a smart cat too rob go ahead talking of smart cats um this is a huge sort of forceful leveraging of amazon's monopolies um amazon owns big fish entertainment which is the production company that's making the show okay amazon owns mgm which is distributing the show amazon owns amazon prime where they're probably going to air the show um and also amazon owns rings so they're using basically their powerful media empire to push their own security product um and uh you know talking about america's funniest home videos we all remember people back in those days uh those of us who were around and watching that show how many people bought camcorders because of america's funniest home videos and they wanted to they wanted to tape the next big funny thing that uh went that era's version of viral um it sort of demystified camcorders for a lot of people and really normalized it as a thing that you should have as a you know red-blooded american consumer and uh this is doing this with ring which is uh you know it's it's power it's powerful it's a it's a powerful tool it's also a powerfully misused tool and it's in the hands of a production company which has a history of making the show live pd which was um which which had its own sort of um really really uh really prominent uh problems in how it was produced because it was streaming interactions with cops live which uh was not giving the um people captured you know sort of their their fair share at uh being innocent until proven guilty it was just hey look at these yokels and the heroic cops are busting them it was canceled in the in the wake of the george floyd protests last year or or the year before last rather but uh they've quietly brought it back as another show called uh on patrol which is the same thing well you know i can see i can see a risk like what you're discussing here where people are so enthralled by this that they not only have ring but they have cameras all over their house and outside because they think something funny might happen somewhere so they're constantly filming that that could definitely be a social problem but you know i i think we're kind of moving in that direction without amazon's help already we have cameras every place where it's it's being normalized and you know when we say that yeah they own the distributor they own the uh the production company they own the method of getting the video out they own the cameras i mean they own it all already can we really say uh no you shouldn't be allowed to use all of that i mean the the real question should have been raised when they were buying all these things uh you know if there's some kind of monopoly that that uh they're they're they're engaging in that's where you raise the question when they actually start to use these tools that they already own i'm not sure it's a really good argument go ahead i think beyond that at least for me there's uh issues of monopoly but also of balkanization and i think the fact that every media company and their mother decided to set up a 24-hour on-demand streaming service there's not enough content to support all of these things unless i think we're heading for the truman show soon i really do because we're running out of program ideas so amazon's like hey we can do this cool we've got all these cameras everywhere and yeah this is also going to demystify it and defang it in a lot of ways which make it scarier but then when they run out of content are they just going to go into the bank by themselves and say oh hey this looks fun you know we i knew someone who had a ring doorbell years ago on their apartment they lived in a 24-hour doorman building but also wanted a ring doorbell and would just sometimes check in from work to see if anybody was at their door i don't know what like this was their very own ring nation program wait they would check in wouldn't it contact them if somebody was at their door they would have to check themselves no just you know they would just check the feed throughout the day just for funsies and yes then if someone checked in but again if you have a 24-hour doorman at your building probably not going to be a lot of people at your door in the first place except your neighbors are you spying on your neighbors is this the plan well who else are you going to spy on of course you're going to spy clearly but spying on their neighbors for years but yeah now they can save what they what they are spying on time shift it's it is a sort of voyeurism that uh is out of our control we're not buying a standalone camcorder or something that is um uh in you know completely uh self-contained and so so forth these are um machines that are communicating uh and and um running software that you don't you don't have uh the same level of um access to and you're relinquishing much of how it operates to how this company's dictating and then of course using it uh uh as content well you know apart from a cat coming home and ringing the doorbell i'm wondering what kind of content uh these people are going to find to fill an entire tv show i mean people aren't going to be uh jumping on trampolines in front of your front door uh there won't be all kinds of humorous accidents and things like that it's you know most of the time it's people either trying to break in or uh you know friends or just people uh doing boring things so what i mean apart from animals okay that's probably the number one draw what else do they think they're going to capture alex i mean i i think i think content is the the primary motivation here i think you got it absolutely right and i want to seem overly pugnacious towards the privacy advocates here but i i think that what amazon has stumbled upon is essentially an inexhaustible and incredibly fertile source of content because it's not just people delivering packages or ups personnel doing funny dances down the the porch or something like that i mean think about back to the fourth of july there was this massively viral video that that uh came from somewhere in suburbia presumably from a ring camera uh fireworks going off uh behind that car that exploded and caused people to run from from their point i mean there's any there's car accidents there's any number of things that happen on the street right but that's not funny there's nothing funny about that i think it could be or you know it could could be a kangaroo jumping out of anything again animals yes animals will be the leading content provider here but what else can you do in the front door anything that happens outside can happen on a on a ring camera that's a massive uh amount of opportunity uh gila go ahead yeah it could be uh you know a truck is driving down your street and it gets a flat tire but and you know it spins out that's funny is somebody is that really funny okay i think it's funny when people fall down i am a terrible person but i think there's also an element of what this could turn into if you think about things like the citizen app that is a bunch of people like someone suspicious is standing outside like you guys heard about the pastor in alabama there was a pastor in alabama who was watering the flowers of his neighbors who were out of town oh yeah the guy got arrested for doing that he got this man got arrested for watering the flowers because his because people in the neighborhood thought it looked strange well it's also that neighborhood you should point out large on that neighborhood is 1962 they didn't mention that in the story they never advanced um so to take that and have it writ large when what you see on cameras lacks any kind of context and that could be problematic as well well the other uh potential issue here which i think maybe is is more worthy of focusing on uh do you give the right to use your image uh if if something happens to you uh in view of someone's ring camera um and and they send it in because it's humorous it seems to me that's a violation of your rights you know walking down the street you're not uh consenting to having your image grabbed and saved uh maybe if you go up to the front door i don't know i'm not sure alex of the course decided if you go up to someone's front door uh do you have the expectation of privacy i know in texas there's been instances where people have killed somebody just for knocking on their door and they've gotten away with it so your mileage may vary yeah i mean it's different i mean you think about when we walk around the streets of new york and if they're doing any kind of filming there's always some kind of disclaimer placed up that says you know there'll be filming here and by going down the sidewalk or the street you consent to your image being used and whatever uh is actually being filmed right so there's usually some kind of consent required in a public place i think it's it's going to be a little bit different from a licensing perspective i think possibly based on the jurisdiction where the cameras are located um and and the fact that they are very likely to be on private property that raises it'll be different that raises a great question because what has have they established as the criteria for signage of uh recording in progress or you know you're being surveilled or smile you're on a ring television show tune in on this night you know for season four or whatever you know it's like it doesn't seem like those are you know across the board required to have any kind of like lawn sign or or sign next to it so in many cases that defeats the purpose they want to catch you know or you they want you to trigger some kind of light or something so if but that as alex pointed out could be a situation that varies across different states wherever uh the camera is placed is it is it a public uh street or what percentage of the frame is is private versus public um i don't know it just see it raises a lot of concerns i've never really seen like a ring uh sign that that that says recording is going on not in the same way that um security systems or something would would say hey you know you better be mindful that you're being recorded i think that might be a very good idea you know and maybe this is something that the people who are fighting this can push for is some kind of notice saying that um you know ring surveillance is on from this door if you walk past this area you will be filmed and i see nothing wrong with that because that's that's the equivalent of having uh you know burglar alarm sign uh warning people that you're under surveillance but let people know about it and and that has been required in other places other countries i know uh in england there are certain rules about that so uh that might be something worth battling for uh to to actually get some changes go ahead rob yeah the the consent issue is also uh going to be very interesting with this because entertainment lawyers know all about things like image rights personality rights and things like that and uh the whole industry is uh is built on extensive contracts that you have to sign before something can get out there but in the case of something like this you know if i'm walking up the stairs to somebody's front door and i uh you know fall comedically on my ass and it goes viral like who who uh who then owns that who then gets to sell that footage it's going to be the person who owns the house who owns the camera but uh yeah but it's your what if i it's your ass you should get a taste get a taste at least i i should get a piece of that action or at least the option to say no i'd rather not have this uh you know broadcast everywhere what what kinds of activities will this encourage too i mean people might want to have sort of exhibition uh attention uh exhibition i got it a whole soap opera ring theater yeah you do like it across neighborhoods and and people tune in alex can you copyright this one because yeah the listeners go too fast sometimes and get our ideas before we do we're gonna need this ring theater spelled re and uh basically it's it's a traveling troop a traveling troop that goes from city to city yeah and puts on little performances kind of like uh they they did this years ago uh with surveillance camera players yeah the surveillance camera players uh maybe we could uh work with them as well but we just go you know to people's private homes and stand in front of their front doors and engage in little plays and and you know miniature comedy scenes it's what they want well obviously that's where we're moving but okay you know uh this is going to be interesting to see how this plays out i just don't think trying to shut it down is the right approach because um educating people is far better getting people to to reject it that's that's a better um uh method rather than saying we don't like you because you're amazon and because uh this is you know um indicative of a bigger problem you need people to reach that you need people to reach that conclusion not not uh talk down to them uh the other question i had from all this um ring cameras i'm not very familiar with them but can you tell if a ring camera is on a door is it does it show anything on the outside or is only on the inside or is it even on the inside gila do you know there's um a thing that looks like it's a doorbell and it's about i don't know it's the size of a doorbell and there's a circle on it that's the the lens and i think it lights up blue much in the same way as um an echo device so you can tell pretty easily that okay all right well that's good i guess right yeah they have a pretty wide product range and i don't want to you know be an infomercial for it at all but the the the ability to identify is crucial you know know what you're looking at and maybe there's uh different kinds of wearable uh lighting and and things that they can uh mess with them a little bit look since these things are going out and grabbing images of people in the public how about the public also grab all the ring cameras and make a little map as to where they all are and maybe you know a google maps overlay or something like that i mean you know if you're going to accept one you really should accept the other okay moving on uh another surveillance uh issue that i kind of have an issue with uh privacy groups are outraged at new york's plan to install cameras on all subway cars in a bid to stop crime the proposal was announced by governor hochel yesterday as an expansion of an earlier pilot project that the governor said was working very well under her expanded plan there will be two cameras in each of new york's 6 455 subway cars now the reason i have an issue with this i thought this was already done i thought there were cameras already in all the subway cars there seemed to be cameras in all the buses you know i fought caller id and there came a time where i realized you know what that battle is over and i lost i think we're at a similar point here i don't know what the point of getting outraged that this is it's going to happen people embrace it it's happened in a lot of places already yeah i i i really think we should just make our peace with it and um and and fight the abuse of this but to say don't put surveillance cameras in subway cars i don't know what do you guys think i mean this one's an interesting one too because i i think we have to be somewhat on on the fence here but also question the timing the motivation and the reasoning behind this particular proposal i think it's it's very clear that having cameras on the subway would certainly have some form of deterrent effect on crime that happens on subway cars i think we can all agree that there would be a deterrent effect and that that's one of the motivations here uh but the subway crime issue really got out of hand during the the first stages of the pandemic when people weren't really riding the subway because of covid uh and then crime got out of hand and then as people started to come back to work slowly but surely there was much much more crime happening on the subways and the subways i think we can also all agree were a bit of a scary and weird place in the middle of the pandemic there it wasn't a fun place to be at all there was always you know some jerk on every subway car not wearing a mask and you know it was strange right so but now you ride the subway and it's almost like we're back to normal in a sense you know there are very few people wearing masks because you know i don't want to say we're totally through the pandemic that's not the argument and it's a bit of a point somebody already said that so you wouldn't be alone if he said that now yeah i agree i'm not sure i agree with that but the the the issue i'm raising and the point i'm making here is that i think that the subway camera proposal is trying to solve a problem that is already being solved or maybe doesn't even exist anymore which is rampant crime on the subway and that initiatives like this things that impact privacy should really not be taken lightly even though we might have thought that there were cameras before and there are cameras on almost every single subway platform i think that you know the public here should really be included in the discussion and much like when you're erecting a new building or excavating a new site or some kind of environmental impact analysis that has to be done before you can erect a new building or drill a well or something that i think that for these types of initiatives there should be some kind of privacy impact analysis or assessment that weighs the public benefit against the detriment to personal privacy and that if we do agree and i think it wouldn't be an unreasonable proposal to put uh cameras in subway cars that um this data and and i think you're right about this emmanuel that on the back end of it the data should be very highly controlled access to the data needs to be audited there needs to be long trails and logs of who had who touched that data why and for what purpose and on whose authority was access granted was a judicial authority was an executive authority so the data itself i think has to be really highly regulated and certainly secure it wasn't too long ago i think it was just last year we were talking about a massive breach of security cameras through the the through vercata and um and i think that there have to be very highly specific and narrow reasons why that data and that footage could be accessed and it includes some kind of real-time monitoring of law enforcement so um i think accessing uh or rather auditing accesses to this data and having some kind of transparency report open to the public is is going to keep these subway cameras continuously in the public debate yeah i think that's a good point that i think mtas uh law enforcement they probably are the first people to handle all the video anyway uh and mon as a normal part of uh operating so uh and the the point you raise about platforms they're already chock full of cameras like ridiculously along with everything that's above ground uh and on the street level going to above ground platforms included so it's like the this is just adding coverage and i think it's a intentional uh look at um how where there are blind spots and i think these subway cars end up being blind spots when when crime occurs on the cars themselves and you have a great point that you know that a lot has to be considered as far as the overall impact and long-term handling of all of this but one thing that uh strikes me is that it's not necessarily going to be a lot of retrofitting it's more that a lot of as the subway changes some of their um rolling stock and gets newer cars this is like the default it's built into most new um subway carriages that's true gila then rob so i guess my other question is what is the ultimate point of this existing is somebody going to be monitoring each of the 10 10 000 plus feeds that's happening at any minute is someone going to say hey something is happening and then dispatch law enforcement to a car in the middle of a tunnel underneath the river like how is this going i'm not even thinking about privacy concerns i'm just thinking about how on earth this is going to work and what ultimately the end game is here because if cars are excuse me cameras are on platforms is that accomplishing anything now i'm concerned that if our train is stopped and i lean up against my husband because it's 11 o'clock at night and now i'm taking up two seats am i going to get a ticket in the mail like are they going to match that to my omni card and say hey that was you and i'm going to get a ticket for taking up two seats on an empty subway car because there's a camera and it's on me at last justice go ahead rob that ties a bit into my concern with this because uh alex you mentioned uh us all basically agreeing that uh cameras will deter crime i i disagree um i don't think cameras are deterrence they're not going to stop a crime from taking place um this has been borne out by studies i'm looking at a study from uh 2008 a release from 2008 by the aclu who uh has concerns with this situation and uh basically cameras don't have any appreciable effect uh they have they have not been found to have any appreciable effect on whether or not crime happens yes if a crime happens you can use the recording and uh try and track down who did it if you're if you're lucky maybe it'll help if you're not like with the subway shootings uh in spring of this year the uh the cameras will be there but uh people will find out afterward that half of them don't work the mtv the mta has already demonstrated that uh they're unable to keep the cameras they have working and now we want to add uh thousands more you see i don't understand that that argument though because saying that uh they they're inept and they don't work properly and that's the reason why we shouldn't have more because you're not good enough at keeping them operating it just sounds like you want them to do a better job so that they can have more cameras i'm not saying that that's a reason we shouldn't have them but i'm saying that the mta has already demonstrated they don't know how to use these things properly but uh if they do if in some perfect world these are all working it's not going to protect people in the subway car it's not going to stop the crime from taking place and the sort of people who uh attack people on subways who uh you know cause all kinds of uh mayhem and damage and and things um i don't think that's the sort of person who's going to look up see a camera and rethink their life decisions well let's not generalize criminals because they're all different they come from all different backgrounds and and one person might see a camera and say okay i'm not going to commit this crime there i mean in england not to keep harping on england uh they're a surveillance state they found that uh most criminals just commit their crimes off camera but they still commit the crime they just know where the camera is and they go somewhere else so you know we can't say for certain that uh it's it's not going to have a deterrent effect but i agree this is mostly for after the fact like for instance the subway shooter is what everyone's pointing at uh knowing if those cameras did work i think we all wanted them to work at that point so they could find the guy quicker but uh eventually they did find the person because people were looking out for a particular uh image um but i do think if uh you know if if they're if they're um working properly and something happens they can see okay where this person go and and where they go after that but that can also be a problem for somebody who didn't commit a crime but are we are we thinking that is what they are going to do with the um uh with the information are they going to start tracking people who aren't suspected of committing crimes how is our privacy in danger here specifically well i think that that's the reason why the data has to be extremely highly controlled and audited and can only be accessed upon certain narrow uh for certain narrow reasons you know i think that you know other than crime there's also going to be some other reasons legitimate reasons why i think uh there should be access to the uh to this particular footage if it does in fact exist in the subway car i mean for instance you know what if something happened to a child if the child went missing or let's say there's you know a a person with alzheimer's who is lost or something happens something there's somebody innocuous or something is is even lost let's say on on a subway platform somebody left something valuable you know there's all these other reasons why i think cctv footage could be helpful in certain ways but i i also i tend to to disagree you know with the aclu's commissioned you know report on this as well rob in the sense that um i i can agree to a certain extent that yes there's still going to be crime on subways and cameras aren't going to solve at all but i do think it will deter certain people from committing offenses that they would they know they would otherwise have gotten away with and i think it will also deter people from minor uh annoyances things like you know harassment i think it will also decrease the the type of that and severity of harassment that that women are would be subjected to on on subway cars as well because if you know you're being monitored you're going to regulate your own uh behavior but it does not get away from the fact that you know again for the very same reason that i oppose you know the the notion of ring cameras being everywhere that we are living this life now where every single thing we do we have to assume is being inspected audited and perhaps retained forever but let's also remember this is a two-way street uh look at what happened in hong kong a couple of years ago where uh the police or or uh these um ununiformed security people burst onto a subway train and beat the living crap out of innocent people and that was captured that was captured on surveillance and you know these things you know all the injustices that we see perpetrated against innocent people a lot of it is captured by security cameras and certainly by by our phones too which is another form of of uh surveillance go ahead gila so i think uh alex just seizing on something that you said a lot of as you know the woman here i can say that sometimes the harassment that women face isn't going to get captured on video because if it's just some dude it looks like he's on his phone but it turns out he's upskirting you or it turns out that he's creeping on you while ostensibly playing pokemon go on his phone this is just a hypothetical it didn't happen to me but these are things that cameras aren't going to help us find but you guys i have an idea more cameras well sort of yeah i think we could solve the mta's budget problem create unlimited content what if the mta and amazon got into partnership and all the cameras on the trains were ring cameras thus creating unlimited content for ring nation fixing the mta's money problems you guys i think i may have just like this is it this is it solved solved everything this is the one ring transit alex get on this one right away ring transit that's the idea that's the that's the show right there ring transit and you know what it doesn't have to be in new york it can be in chicago it can be in tokyo it can be all over the place ring we basically record people as they do funny things on the train and if they want to get somewhere they have to agree to be filmed and and we get all the profit let's talk about this swiping your metro card is swiping your your metro card or you know hitting your omni or whatever getting into the system that is your blanket consent exactly for being filmed well we can also put a wrap on the train that is the release so you read it as the door opens and my more advertising that uh okay uh yes clear the closing doors everything you do is on camera just make the button on a check box or something we come up with some great ideas on this show go ahead alex another great idea i think the title of the show can be it's showtime i came up with ring transit you don't like that yeah i think that's already used all right i mean ring transit all right but yeah it's showtime a phrase all new yorkers were familiar with who ride the subway all right believe it or not there are other stories going on um and by the way uh when we run out of time which will be soon uh you can join us at eight o'clock on off the hook over time over on youtube youtube.com channel 2600 is how you get there and um you can also just click on the link on the 2600.com web page and please write to us here at off the hook oth at 2600.com and don't forget to continue supporting wbai go to wbai.org or give to wbai.org give the number to wbai.org and uh support the place so we can continue having spirited conversations like this where we test our uh belief systems and all sorts of other things so um u.s government officials are adding data from as many as 10 000 electronic devices every year to a massive database they've compiled from cell phones ipads and computers seized from criminals at the count uh the country's airports seaports and border crossings oh wait i read that wrong i said criminals i meant travelers they're not criminals uh the rapid expansion of the database and the ability of 2700 customs and border patrol officers to access it without a warrant two details uh not previously known about the database have raised alarms in congress about what use the government has made of the information much of which is captured from people not suspected of any crime not even suspected of any crime cpb officials i'm sorry cbp officials uh told congressional staff the data is maintained for only 15 years details of the database were released last thursday in a letter to cbp commissioner chris uh magnus from senator ron wyden why is it always senator ron wyden that's on top of these things why does nobody else seem to care it's depressing he uh criticized the agency for allowing indiscriminate rifling through americans private records and call for stronger privacy protections i'm sorry if you're a senator out there and i just defended you it proved me wrong okay just express an interest in it and and you know stand behind ron wyden because uh this is this is wrong i mean you know you're at the border you're crossing one country to another and they they take your phone they take your computer and um they they they scan it they look through your contacts who knows what they do uh and if you refuse they just take it they take it and they can keep it for months and and really go through it at that point and uh that's not right under any circumstance that is not right i've never had to deal with that myself but i imagine if i did i i would i would not give it uh give it up easily i would try to wipe it probably because you know regardless of what's on it any device it's none of their damn business unless you are suspected of a specific crime and you're under investigation they should not be able to do that alex is this fantasy that i'm engaged in here is it or has reality changed uh it's it's a a unique factual circumstance i think that we're dealing with here where you know it's been called for a long time you know airports and borders are are uh infamously known as fourth amendment free zones and so what i see happening here is there are cbp customs and border protection is utilizing this essentially fourth amendment free zone to inspect and seize travelers as devices and then it collects that data and it puts it into a different context and now that that data is in let's say a database or it's searchable or it's indexable it might be tied to a certain person's name identity context etc you're no longer storing that data within the confines of this fourth amendment free zone it's now in a place that should reasonably be subject to the fourth amendment and and should only be accessible upon the showing of probable cause and there should be some form of judicial oversight you know for access to this type of data i think the fact that it was acquired in a context where the fourth amendment does not necessarily have as strong a reach as uh as it wouldn't let's say your house is just a way of the government performing an end run around our privacy rights but yeah i can't say i can't say i'm surprised and i don't think anybody should be that the data is being abused uh at this stage you know my objection was taking the data in the first place and i i i feel like we've given up on that i feel like we're saying that for some reason at the border you don't have the same constitutional rights as you do in your home and i when did that get decided when when when was it uh decided for us that yeah they can they can go through all your your your personal electronic data if you're standing over here in this country as opposed to over there yeah this this whole thing is really strange to be honest with you because you know how how people's devices are being seized and inspected and uploaded and data retained is is is is something i think that these articles don't necessarily touch upon as well and i think that you know that that to me is a threshold issue that needs to be investigated that's something that's been going on for a while so it's not as sexy a story as this this new database but the very fact of the data collection itself is is really problematic to me uh i've gotten an update actually ron wyden apparently is not the only senator uh who cares about this um there was a bill introduced um basically um um to to require this happened last year to require border officials to get a warrant before searching a traveler's device and that uh bill was introduced by senator ron wyden and also are you ready senator rand paul yeah i i i i saw that simultaneous look of disappointment and despair on everyone's face but you know occasionally occasionally he comes up with a a decent idea or proposal but uh everybody else where are you how about that do you want ron paul to take credit for this come on we can do better this is wrong this is wrong and uh we'd like to hear from anybody who has experienced something like this and what what you went through oth at 2600.com if you did yeah i really am interested in the uh notion of uh being secure in your papers uh your documents this is no different in in the uh fourth um fourth amendment uh search and seizure uh uh clauses and that that stuff itself seems to me to apply regardless of the the actual medium with which it's stored and and whether you're going through this zone or not um just being a traveler you should not be suspected of being a criminal i think that is a really bad uh um uh way to treat people that are going out and and going across borders they even say they're not suspected of being a criminal you know what's to stop a customs agent from saying hey you know she looks hot i'd like to see her contacts and and basically just doing that because he can you know that's wrong and that's an abuse and don't be surprised when that happens because we all know that's going to happen well and especially since this medium itself is imminent uh imminently more uh uh or infinitely more sorry uh uh copyable and and um modifiable like this uh chain of custody how it is physically handled um can be interfered with a lot more readily uh and authenticating things and you're you're creating um a situation where someone who is not prepared to defend themselves and as alex stated are in a historical uh um legal zone that is distinct um it's a way of victimizing people that is uh really really uh insidious so we only have one minute left but um and in that minute um ways of preventing this if you're traveling um i mean can you put everything on your phone onto a sim card and just simply hide that sim card somewhere else or maybe swallow it and get it back in a couple of days what uh what do we suggest quickly i've heard over the years a lot of different ways to do it um but you could have multiple devices and um basically bring one that is uh uh unused to uh the location you're going and use secure methods to download it uh onto the new device once you get there oh it's very quickly yeah i think it's be very difficult to repeat this because it's a cbp directive that gives officers the authority to look at essentially anyone's device and scroll through it if they if you refuse or try to frustrate that your device could be seized apparently for up to five days the way to do okay fine but uh you you've you frustrated uh well beforehand and you put your data somewhere else safe to to avoid this kind of thing that's if you care about your privacy uh rob if you can do this in 15 seconds yeah if you factory reset your phone backing everything up first that you want to keep but uh factory reset it uh right before your trip then uh when they when they ask you why why your phone has nothing on it just say i'm a nervous traveler i don't want to lose my you know have my identity stolen anything like that i did that once where i came through absolutely nothing no baggage no phone no nothing and i got a weird look but they said okay welcome to the usa don't make something up we are we are out of time but we're going over to youtube over time uh channel 2600 we'll see you there we'll see you next week oth at 2600.com good night he made his way to the border in the shadow under the trees down by a stream turn your head feel the breeze and the red queen was waiting and the red queen was waiting for the white king to move and the balance hung upon the head of one who tried to stay in the shadows and keep his own the corner secret times they let him in by a back way into a chamber reserved for the queen she took the note that he gave her opened it slowly and started to read run to the treasury and bring me back some gold give it to the poor new game she cried she says the white king thinks the game of chess is wrong but no the poor she's crowded down and this is what she told the government is wrong go to the store by the dungeon take all the red paint take all the white make up a new born color call me your neighbor we'll be alright there'll be the game today she cried across the board every day will be a holiday and all the pieces cheer there's tiny spread of warm and the pink green sat and smile at the cat we smile the pink the pink you know there's nothing like that but yeah it's very interesting and that it is like and all the with me the well And the very good inventory by the program is off the hook overtime. 
It's 8 p.m. 
Eastern Time and Yes, I've I think I've made it have I made it Kyle you came over here to adjust some things No, it's just double checking and I'm joking. 
Okay. 
I just got here too. 
It was a long Transition for me It's a malfunction, but I'm here now. 
I wouldn't call the malfunction. 
Just a double-checking. 
It's all right Did I Skype friends make it to see levels Rob? 
Are you okay? 
I am fine. 
Okay, and Gila you're there too also fine also fine and YouTube seems to be fine as well. 
Oh, I don't I don't see Alex anywhere You know, I'm right here. 
I don't hear him either. 
I don't hear see or hear Alex No, I'm kidding. 
I'm kidding. 
I both see and hear you, but I want to message you a little bit Fun, you know, we we we we kid ourselves sometimes it's gonna be one of those. 
It's gonna be one of those overtimes Yeah, Rob, can can you verify in fact that we we we made it? 
We we have indeed we have indeed made it and we sound good Okay. 
Oh, I see you moved the table that I used to hold all my stories Kyle. 
Thank you for that No, I have nothing to put my My stories on that's okay. 
No, you don't have to run and get it Actually, you move my stories too though, so I don't have the stories to read Wow You're just thinking how he gets when he doesn't have his stories. 
I have nothing to talk about If I'm not scripted, I've got nothing. 
I just can't I can't wing it You move the table that had the stories on top of them out of the room very thorough there thank you for that so we have we have all kinds of Compromising of sites and things like that. 
That's So much fun, did you hear about Grand Theft Auto? 
Yeah, well if you didn't hear about Grand Theft Auto, maybe you heard about uber. 
Apparently they're related uber got hacked I think last week and That was followed by Grand Theft Auto supposedly by the same people uber believes the hacker behind last week's breach is affiliated with the Lapsus extort it might pronounce now. 
How do you pronounce a dollar sign? 
It's LAP su s dollar sign Lapsus yeah, but how do you pronounce the dollar sign as an s but that's already an s there Yeah, you pronounce it Similar, you know, I guess according to the letter of the alphabet to which it is most similar. 
Yeah, but then this You know, I don't want to piss off these people. 
They're extortionists. 
Okay. 
I want to make sure I pronounce their name, right? 
It's important So with all due respect lapsus people just please send us a memo if we pronounce that wrong we'll get we'll get it, right They are known for breaching other high-level tech profile tech companies such as Microsoft Cisco Nvidia Samsung and Okta Okta Don't think I ever said Okta before the company what Okta I don't care if I mispronounce them the company added that the attacker used the stolen credentials of an uber ext Contractor in an MFA fatigue. 
Okay, what's with all the acronyms? 
I don't know what the acronyms mean What's an ext contractor someone tell me that external? 
Well, why wouldn't they just say external they capitalized ext? 
Maybe it's an official program that they're titling or and I'm supposed to know about referring to what's an MFA fatigue attack Multi-factor authentication. 
That's right. 
Yeah, I should have known that. 
Okay I Just get you know Also could be a master of fine arts attack. 
I doubt that very much I really do but I get acronym happy, you know, I just too many of them and I just don't know what any of the mean anymore So MFA fatigue attack where the contractor was flooded with two-factor authentication login requests until one of them was accepted So basically a lot of two-factor authentication that makes it a multi-factor authentication attack or fatigue attack. 
You just say you know what? 
I give up Kind of how I feel now this social engineering tactic has become very popular and has been used in recent attacks targeting well-known companies worldwide including Twitter Robin Hood MailChimp and Octa when they were targeted before They're gonna end every single list of companies is going to be octa because they've always been targeted Anyway from there the attacker access several other employee accounts Which ultimately gave the attacker elevated permissions to a number of tools including G suite and slack That's according to ubers explanation. 
The attacker then posted a message to a company-wide slack channel, which many of you saw and Reconfigured ubers open DNS to display a graphic image to employees on some internal sites I don't even want to speculate what the graphic image was The company added that found no evidence that the threat actor could access production systems that store sensitive user information Including personal and financial data like credit card numbers user bank account info personal health data or trip history Why would you have personal health information for a customer if you need assistance of some kind or you have a condition like? 
Your hearing impaired or maybe visual impairment. 
So you tell uber that okay. 
All right cares Not Enough to I keep their system secure apparently but all right fine at the moment the company is investigating the incident with help from the FBI and the US Department of Justice as Soon as they finish with Trump. 
It's gonna take a while so anyway as far as Grand Theft Auto It's anybody surprised by this somebody hacked Grand Theft Auto. 
I mean for God's sake. 
It's it's a it's a game about stealing cars and just doing whatever the hell you please and Somebody stole their site and did whatever the hell they pleased and I Think it's probably good publicity, you know, because more people are talking about grant I didn't know Grand Theft Auto was still around but apparently it is The hacker there claims to have stolen GTA 5 and 6 source code and assets GTA 6 testing build but is trying to extort Rockstar games to prevent further data from being released However, the threat actor says they are accepting offers over $10,000 for the GTA V or Grand Theft Auto 5 Source code and assets but are not selling the Grand Theft Auto 6 source code at this time Because folks this is integrity. 
All right, you basically you sell the old stuff first you hold on to the new stuff and you hold it and Hope that it means something to the company and and you only release it if they don't Treat you with the respect that you deserve and and and that's that's how it works. 
Yes. 
It's decorum. 
It's it's tradition So after Members of a particular forum Showed disbelief that the hack was real the threat actor claimed he was behind the recent cyber attack on uber and Leaked screenshots of source code from both Grand Theft Auto 5 and Grand Theft Auto 6 as for the proof Rockstar games the makers of Grand Theft Auto have not released a statement or responded to any email Concerning the attack and this is from Bloomberg and they have confirmed the attack That the leak was valid after speaking to sources at Rockstar I Think people are still gonna buy the game, you know, I think people are going to be excited about it and all that It's just there's more there's more talk about it. 
I think that Though it is one thing to mess with the the group it a question here Lazarus Lazarus Lazarus But I think Rockstar might be pretty Pretty mad about this. 
I mean mad enough to not even comment mad enough to kill. 
Oh, I don't know I mean what kind of formidable Adversary are they? 
I mean, they're not necessarily your average man. 
It's then another another idea here Video game about a video game that gets hacked. 
All right, and and basically the the executives at the video game company turn into these Iconic figures that go out and do battle with the hackers that took over the previous video game. 
That was part of the previous release and That's the game. 
We just need a name for it. 
But that's that's our third idea tonight. 
Oh I'm not exactly following we can take that one offline Hmm, we'll discuss this afterwards Rob Rob. 
Go ahead There was there was an update on this story on Monday Rockstar did comment they confirmed they confirmed the intrusion They're not mad. 
It seems just disappointed They said we're extremely disappointed to have any details of our next game shared with you all in this way Our work on the next grand theft auto game will continue as planned and we remain as committed as ever to delivering an experience Yada, yada. 
Yada. 
No, no, no. 
No. 
No what they should have said was okay. 
Yeah, you caught us we did it This was our attempt to get more publicity, what do you think of our hack? 
That's what they should have said. 
Come on. 
You know how mad that would have made the person who actually did it But the answer is very mad and and so what would they have done hacked them again? 
They've already been hacked. 
So I think they've already thought through some of these options. 
I mean, these are probably all the stages of Reaction they're going through. 
Uh-huh as they sort out their next steps the 12 stages of being hacked. 
Oh Write that one down access number four. 
That's another good idea. 
That's like a pocket. 
We're hot tonight. 
I don't know like Christmas Carol, we could write it as a Christmas Carol. 
Oh, that's good, too. 
Yeah, and there's just enough time for that Mm-hmm. 
I mean they come out next month. 
So yeah, we should be able to put that together Hey, our phone number is eight zero two three two one four two two five. 
That's right You can join the conversation. 
You can talk to us eight. 
Oh two three two one hack No matter where you are. 
No matter who you are We want to hear from you So, please give us a call and tell us what's on your mind or react to something that we might have said Or correct us if we were wrong about something We are interested in all of this we want to know what's on your mind we want to know what you're thinking We want to know what you're thinking about any of the stories we talked about on off the hook prime I'm over on the radio and in the past hour or anything else. 
We're talking about here To O'Reilly and we don't want to know what you're thinking We would define know what you're saying, you know, and I'm not gonna do a mind probe or anything like that We don't have that technology yet. 
Maybe you don't okay. 
All right We have a call Kyle. 
All right. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the hook overtime. 
Go ahead Hello, it's anybody there. 
Hello guys, how you doing today? 
Hey, how you doing? 
I just want to say um Guys, um I'm just happy you still have that show on BAI man, because they're You know, like I told rich Johnson I said at worst comes to worst man The station should try to get a serious XM channel, but that's another topic. 
I want to talk about like the MTA situation Okay, I would like a serious XM channel. 
In fact, you know back when they first started I think we were on the verge of getting one and then the person that was going to get us one got fired So we never got one but boy there's there's a lot of crap on serious XM that could be replaced by something like BAI I'd like to see that precisely, man So the thing with the MTA man the MTA They always they always shoot theirselves in the foot man. 
They don't they don't know how to order buses They put chains on on the buses tires during the winter and in the winter time Northern Transit Agency does this and that depreciates the arm The structural integrity of the buses Really I didn't know that that is what I guess it's one example Wow, so from so from 2000 to like 2017 the MTA ordered Tech trains, they ordered all 142 starting from like 2000 that it was the r160s So like the BMT ID divisions and the latest ones they ordered was our 179th On the J train, you know, you know, you're trying did you work for them? 
You know about this I'm like, well, I'm like, um, I'm like one of these guys That are like real fans. 
Oh, okay Like a small community of us. 
We have like videos on YouTube. 
Oh, we see these videos all the time In fact, we have them up sometimes where basically just trains are passing all night long and they're great Exactly, and we see some people who just go around filming things in the system. 
There's one where people go to abandon stations It's really pretty awesome Yes, yes, that is true So they ordered like over a thousand Tech trains from like mm Started with the end the r142s and the latest order was the r179 for the J train And they're actually supposed to get the r211s, which was which was which replaced the r 68 trains on the a train Those are from the 70s right now all these tech trains they order from like mm They couldn't have Kawasaki or Bombardier already have cameras installed Mm-hmm while they were building the trains this way the intake of this program the cameras and This way people would be I'm sorry. 
I'm outside now. 
So that people would be indoctrinated not to do anything If they had started this thing 20 years ago now, they have cameras and all their buses Yes, they have a fleet of they have a fleet of almost 6,000 buses. 
We have the biggest network in the nation Wow, but I think the MTA they just make these dumb decisions man, you know, they um They do something good and then they They turn around and um They just found they just make decisions that defeats the purpose You know one one good thing that I think almost everybody agrees on in fact I think it was a New York Times article about this a really good article about the Metro card machines and how people are gonna be sorry to see those go because they were just so solid and they Worked and it's one of those rhythm. 
Sorry They shouldn't get rid of that. 
That's a dumb decision because the Metro card itself came out in 97 I was in college I remember when it first came out before they actually had believe it or not people know they had the Metro card the white and blue cards Yes, they came out in 94. 
That was just for like, um Like people that really like like corporate people that had like like like worked in them and in Manhattan Uh-huh, and you could bet they just need they needed that Because of their community from Jersey you should you should check out our First hope video one of our first hope videos in 1994 Which is about hacking the Metro card and you can see how much things have changed over the decades. 
It's really incredible. 
I Think it's dumb because that'd be a waste of money because they spent how many millions put in kiosks in every station Mm-hmm from from the from the stations like in the in the worst neighborhoods in East, New York to like Wall Street every station I think it's for like about 500 stations. 
They have kiosks now, right? 
You got to keep that because they're still that's still It's still an innovative apparatus. 
The MTA shouldn't get rid of what they should do Keep that and have Omni The token thing was wonderful. 
And I think what they should do they should ban coins No, just board. 
They should just worry about banning coins because of the coin shortage Because they're doing they're gonna do all this stuff and then they're gonna waste the money When they could have people from the community making suggestions Yeah, they don't that's a good suggestion and you know those machines I didn't realize they were so artistically put together by color and just like, you know A natural flow of progression as you're as you're buying something or updating something It really you know You see that so rarely and unfortunately the decisions already been made to get rid of them and to replace them something else I just hope it's not something terrible that we're used to that the MTA comes with I Mean, I've used Omni on the bus. 
I mean, it's very convenient to have um, I have a SoFi card Mm-hmm, and that's a credit karma card. 
Like a lot of these bank cards now didn't Did they have they have they have the magnetic strip which did they're retaining that and they have the chip and they have the on the wife that Wi-Fi Symbol. 
Mm-hmm. 
That's happened. 
Those symbols. 
Yes. 
So it's very I've used I've used Omni several times. 
It's very convenient and It's a pretty good deal too if you use it a certain amount of times I don't know if the exact number is but if you use it a certain amount of times You don't have to pay any more for that week Yeah, exactly just like easy pass yes in the way easy pass does I don't think there's a maximum on easy pass I think you can spend a lot of money on that Yeah, so that's that that's that's all I had to say I'm with the cameras in the MTA They must have been at the big time and because they could have been doing this 20 years ago when they got when they first got the r142. 
Well, you know, they have to listen to people like us for one Thing okay, you know when they when they first introduced those, you know, I don't know the the model numbers You probably do the first we called them the evil six trains Because they had the red red circle and the six in the middle, but they they had they had the stops Had this lit up arrow and oftentimes it would tell you which which way the stations were going But many times that arrow was pointing the opposite way that the train was moving and it was very confusing to people from out of town They replaced that with something better You know that has all the stations up on by the ceiling and they they basically are able to change The the next station or say the next five stations or whatever. 
It's a better system But I've seen much better in other countries as well Yeah, man, I've seen that. 
I'm only 43. 
I'm actually 45 in December I've seen that. 
I mean, I remember the end. 
I've seen that that that that whole operation transition like, you know before they had We had tokens We didn't have everything was analog man now they have um, yeah, you know going to every station you have that automated arm announcement thing You have the LED signs Mm-hmm in the stations tell me know You know that have all the stations have real-time now From other topic. 
I'm ahead. 
Um, I need some help guys. 
I have a have this wonderful Windows Nokia 1520 phone Okay, now I understand that on Windows said something about they they won't provide updates for Windows phones I Think Windows 10 was up like that like the last go-around. 
I was able to update my my Nokia 1520 last last summer Mm-hmm, but I noticed that like some websites, um, they don't load up all the way. 
It's missing a lot of graphics so I tried I went to a Wi-Fi area and I Went to upgrade advisor And they said that there's no updates available at this time So, I guess I guess um now I'm hoping that I was hoping I can still update get updates for that phone But I think I'm Microsoft I think Microsoft they're really um They're serious about you know, they're one day not doing updates those phones because I love my Nokia 1520, man Yeah, I mean look at some of the support forums for the model specifically, but also that mobile OS Within the Microsoft knowledge base a lot of times there are patches and things that you can manually otherwise I don't know exactly how the operating system works, but maybe you can transfer some things over That aren't necessarily a part of whatever update suite is in the phone itself I know that's really frustrating and congrats for having an operating system such as that This day and age when I mean a lot of the alternatives from the big the big two are Few and far between I know there are projects and there are free phone OS's and stuff But absolutely back up what you have to make sure you copy and and clone that I've I've had Blackberries and and and other devices one thing I'm trying to figure out now is how to copy contacts out of a sim So ideas ways people do some of the the stuff to at least make a clone of it and and have something that is not on the device that that you can keep and You know don't ask Border Patrol to do it do it yourself Yeah You know you just you just have to have a Wi-Fi Connection which doesn't make any sense of this. 
I don't know why you can't use your own mobile data to do updates I never understood that Yeah That's peculiar. 
I don't know if that's a setting in the the phone OS or some somehow the way they've Set that particular operating system to work on the network Through some of the controls and how the sim and the baseband operate on the the actual chip itself, but it's Worthy to keep around and especially if your data is there make sure you're you're protecting yourself and getting getting at least a copy I think Rob has something to add go ahead Rob Yeah, as far as Windows phones as an as a platform go Microsoft got out of the Windows Phone operating system business in 2019 the last version of the Windows mobile operating system reached its end of life and end of support So basically they aren't going to have anything for you and their official recommendation on the Microsoft comm Frequently asked questions page about the the end of life of Windows 10 mobile is Their official recommendation is well try Android or iOS or other things So they basically are not going to be of help So any any further use that you get of that you get out of your device on Windows is not really going to be considered Safe as far as security patches as far as the safety of your of your data And any and so any any real future that your device has is going to have to be from some kind of Alternative operating system if one exists that you would have to install yourself like like I was talking about You know how Linux rose up, you know, and and and basically enthralled so many people We need something like that in the phone spectrum where we're basically we control it, you know, we design it we update it There there are things like that in the Android sphere because Android is based on Linux and so there are several free community Supported community built alternatives to the stock Android operating system and a lot of older phones still run Well with those a lot of current phones, you know Maybe it takes some time to for people to get them running but they do exist and they are out there Can you delete the Facebook app? 
Can you delete it? 
Not just disable it. 
That's the test Generally you can because the community operating systems are very good at giving you total control of your device and Letting you decide what's on there and what's not. 
Yeah, I really want to see I'm eager to see more collaborations people pulling a lot of these sort of separated and Specious little projects that are way, you know way interesting doing awesome stuff with different hardware and really pulling it together into something that is Sort of a sturdy competition to the dominant players right now and I think the biggest challenge is What do all what is the interest of all of those groups? 
Collaborating or coordinating or what is the interest of someone who would? 
Pick the best of those projects and the most ideal configurations and development styles for the need you're trying to replace and I think that's a really hard question because There's a lot of different attitudes towards it Even though we have more control than ever over what's running on your phone. 
Hey, I call our two final questions I know they were planning on introducing a new subway car Where you could see from one side to the other, you know from the front to the back, you know That's the r211. 
They're supposed to replace the a trains. 
Okay, that's the one. 
Yeah. 
Yeah, and where are those? 
Are they are they being introduced anytime soon? 
That's I think they're testing one now because um, they're gonna be made by Kawasaki and you know, they have you know, they're They have a they have a plan right here in Yonkers. 
Oh, that's just the county Wow Finally final assembly plant. 
They come from Japan. 
Uh-huh, and um Well final assembly on location is on young Yonkers over there by um the train station By Larkin Plaza. 
Uh-huh. 
Okay. 
Can we drop by for a visit? 
You know? 
Well, I don't walk there, you know, but you you can I mean, you know, I guess you're welcome to To view it from the Hudson line, you know, we discovered When traveling across the country last year that there's a lot of cities I think Oklahoma City is one of them that have trams like they do overseas, you know streetcars and they're made I think in Pennsylvania, which is pretty awesome. 
I want to visit that place as well One one final question for you. 
You mentioned YouTube. 
Do you have any any videos you'd like to point us to or anything? 
Videos you'd like to point us to or channels Yeah, I have a channel um, I need to channel is on milestone underscore achiever okay, and um and It's just like a recreational thing. 
I'm not doing nothing. 
I'm not I don't have a Like a channel like Casey Neistat or something like that someone like that, you know You know, I just um, I think it's just um bus fanning rail fanning and um I'm just into my electric scooters Cool, so banner self-balanced cruising. 
I'm doing some modifications with those. 
Where are your helmet? 
Yeah, where your helmet and for those who might not be familiar with the whole concept of rail fanning can can you describe it briefly? 
Well rail fanning does not People think it pertains to people that work for transit. 
That is not true you got tons of people that that they just had like a It just fell up with trains and buses from childhood and With the advent of YouTube now It's since you know the way we can put stuff out this Has become so at technology advanced You know, anyone could just do a YouTube and there the whole world could see it, right? 
Don't we know it yeah, it's incredible Yeah, and some of the live feeds are really entertaining as well because you never know what's what's going to happen There are they're all over the country all over the world in fact You know, there's so many different and new unique things that you almost you wonder like oh, this has been around forever You can't imagine a time when you didn't have these kinds of interesting audio-visual presentations right at your fingertips the the anything you can think of to search for It the implications are I think still unfolding. 
Yep Well, thanks for calling Thanks for calling check out. 
Yeah, I would say check out Trevor Trevor Logan. 
Yeah. 
Yeah, okay He's really in he knows a lot about transit and he has like a big website man Okay, well, we're gonna check into all the channels Thanks for calling and for the information and keep doing what you're doing. 
Yeah, good luck All right now phone number eight zero two three two one four two two five eight oh two three two one hack It's a entertaining call informative to Alex looks like you have something to say I just echo the same sentiment. 
I think yeah, so he's nice to get calls from new callers as well Well, you don't know he never called before. 
I Checked my voice database and there were no matches not nothing that rose above 85% certainty. 
So I Don't think he's called before. 
Mm-hmm All right again our phone number eight oh two three two one four two two five eight oh two three two one hack Is there anything Kyle Yes, no. 
Yes. 
Okay, and good evening. 
You're on He said there was something there. 
Did they hang up? 
Well, did you make a loud click? 
I just answered. 
Okay eight. 
Oh two three two one four two two five I think we have a caller online. 
Is there somebody there? 
Yes. 
Hey, how you doing? 
Surviving and you Know you're surviving your we've survived. 
So yeah, I guess we're still surviving Good What's what's on your mind? 
Good to hear I Was wondering when a winner winner winner win. 
Are you going to remember? 
To thank me by my full name on the air Okay, we did this already well we don't we don't thank full names on the air and we're not going to Because that's just we've always done that that's that's we we do. 
Thank you for your support. 
We did. 
Thank you on the air We have to move on to other things But But that is the custom when the person requested the way you did it might as well been anonymous Call it caller. 
What if we say thank you right now, and then you say your full name I'd like it to be on the air, please. 
Okay, we we really really sweet want to move on from this Conversation because look if you're donating just to get thanked that's the wrong reason to donate. 
All right, sir No, I was not donating just to be thanked But I donated for your program to support it because it was attacked in front of the FCC and I would like to be thanked and that is the You were saying everybody you were thanked we thank you we do not give We do not give out people's full information. 
We will not do that. 
Even if you ask us to do that You're welcome to call in and say your full name You can do that, but probably won't be a very entertaining call and that's that's that's just our policy We have never done anything other than that Okay, is that understood? 
Policy this has always been the way we've done it go listen to all the years Program you're making up a policy. 
It doesn't apply to all the rest then call the rest, but our policy is our policy Seriously that's that we do it for a reason because we're aware We you don't want to give out all your information to people over the radio It's it's not something that we're all my information I am an open book and like I said, you can do that, but we're not going to do that ourselves That's just our policy this shouldn't be such a big deal it really shouldn't be such a big deal But it is ungracious of you. 
Okay. 
Well, I don't think it is it we're thanking you We're just not thanking you the way you want us to thank you, but I'm sorry that that's We are wasting time here, that's yeah, do you have anything else to say? 
Whatever it was I've forgotten it by now All right Well, we'll pick it up in the future. 
Thanks. 
Thanks for your call Let's move on 802 3 2 1 4 2 2 5 good. 
God, I mean Thanks for thanks for your support back there guys, but anything you want to add now that the callers gone Well, we I don't think we wanted to interrupt But that's such a good rapport you guys had going. 
Oh, thank you. 
Thank you for that. 
Let's pile all on me This is always what we've done. 
We've never done anything different Well, you you were doing so well, you did you did very we we we are grateful to to that to that caller who is called Eleanor and everyone else who helps WBA I stick around because like we couldn't do it without them But yes, like you said if if the reason you're donating is to get a loud Thank you with your full name on the air that that's not going to happen. 
We don't do that. 
But We are thankful we are grateful we are feeling that gratitude in our radio producer hearts Yeah people are welcome to come on the air do a show or call in and bark out their entire name if they if they want Like I said, it won't be that entertaining if you do But we are not going to engage in that ourselves because you know, it's a bad precedent. 
It's a bad precedent to set Then all of a sudden we're saying someone else's name and then it turns out that wasn't the person's name Someone else is giving us that name and get into all kinds of battles. 
We've been doing this for decades on multiple radio stations It's always been the policy of the people who broadcast you that's how we do it And if you don't like that, there's another show that probably will do it differently and you can you can ask them It's as simple as that. 
Okay, we have another phone. 
We good evening. 
Sorry. 
Sorry. 
Sorry Rob. 
Good evening. 
You're on the air. 
Go ahead Okay, well that why that person's figuring out how to use the phone go ahead Robert what you're gonna say We we just happen to be of a community that has a very sort of particular unique relationship with names Especially full names and so like we don't want to accidentally disrespect that look by doing so What if someone insisted we say their social security number on the air, you know? 
Look, if you want to do that, go ahead and do it, but we're not going to do it. 
It's very personal information What if you want your address given out again? 
Not something we're comfortable giving out But maybe you want to do that because you're having a bake sale or something and you want people to come over fine You have that power, but please don't ask us to do it. 
Okay. 
I think we have another phone call. 
Good evening You're on off the hook overtime. 
Can you hear me fine? 
We hear you now. 
Go ahead. 
Okay How you guys doing? 
It's Philip again from Virginia by Missouri by Virginia down there I'm all right. 
I took your advice and I called I Wrote a letter to the paper and They came and cleaned up all the britches. 
Oh my god. 
Look at you. 
You actually got that done. 
That's incredible. 
Yeah Congratulations. 
Yeah Well, I'm going to write him another one cause we need stuff to do around here Maybe have like a pit parade or Halloween parade. 
Okay, you know like a zombie run or something like that just something to do Well, this is my suggestion make sure you thank the people that got it done and Space your letters out. 
So you're not writing every every day or every week, you know, you don't be be too insistent But it sounds like you you hit the right people and that's really good So you're not being whacked in the face by by branches anymore That's true Also, we were talking about the the the the Extortion over the source code for currently, it's almost sick I Mean, there's nothing to gain from that other than people just being jerks. 
I just don't understand it I don't understand. 
Why do you even call it hacking because All they did was what they just like Pounded like kind of like a lady for their like Factor of syndication, whatever. 
Yeah credentials for for log Yeah, there's nothing to gain from that they won't gain any knowledge they weren't exposed to any new vulnerability They were just doing it to try to get money. 
Yeah, Phil. 
This is their core business. 
Yeah, it isn't it's their core business You know, they have other games and stuff, but it's not like it's not like they just sort of like Opened one little storage closet and and took some stuff like they're probably really annoyed by this Grant that thought oh, yeah. 
Yeah, we're rockstar. 
What else does rockstar? 
Ironic, but yeah, does rockstar make other series. 
It is a studio, right? 
Uh-huh. 
So I don't know what they're up to Uh-huh. 
Yeah. 
Yeah, you know see we're talking about them. 
Now. 
This has got to be good publicity For the city You know, it's just Like the most outrage I've heard on YouTube about it's like oh, they're talking about the spoilers It's like who cares about the spoilers. 
So I mean There's a rockstar. 
It's more upset over their spoilers in it and then the leaked footage or whatever. 
Mm-hmm leak source code Yeah, but you know when the first person plays the game that person can tell everybody so it's really It's not as big a deal It's like, you know a book getting out. 
You're still gonna you know, if you're a fan, you're gonna buy the book Yeah, I mean, I Just think I just think that the whole old two spoilers is what's really the problem is. 
It's just BS You know these people who complain oh, there's a woman in tagging a protagonist in it or an antagonist I don't know how you would characterize They're like, uh, yeah, well protagonist to the story, but You know, you're going around robbing people. 
So wait what people are upset when it's a woman doing that Yeah. 
Yeah, there's like there's like this outrage over. 
It's like the Do you have the black mermaid thing? 
Yeah, but but if they're saying women can't steal cars. 
That's really what their belief I really don't understand it either. 
It's just If there's that upset over it want to just learn to code their own game cause I made a I made a cheap version of Starfox one time just using go dot which uses pearl No, that's not Python, sorry and You know if I could pull that off surely they could pull off your own Grand Theft Auto and put whatever you want in it Could keep could keep from going to Twitter complain about it. 
I I just wonder how many how many different ways? 
Can you steal a car? 
I mean, how long has it been going on for? 
It's just they keep stealing cars and the cops never seem to learn from it Yeah, well the red dead I would go around like on the dirt roads and everything away from town. 
I like Take people after shooting off their horses Drag the body out to like the lake somewhere and just drop it off I got out of the car I got out of the car and just ran for like miles down a street just to see what happened Yeah, and eventually I got to the end of it Well, there's like there's like a UFO in Grand Theft Auto. 
You can bond There's the in red there there's like there's like a cult There's like it goes in like a Like the Klan it's in there Actually burning crosses, you know This is I mean Who has time for all this? 
I barely have time to drive my own car let alone a one in cyberspace Well when you we like me no girlfriend, no money, you know No, nothing. 
You got all the time in the world to go do this stuff Wow So, you know, I don't know I just think it's I can understand the source code part But I don't understand the whole. 
Oh, no, there's spoilers release. 
No, I mean, it's just like We're at a point where we're country that get upset over the little things anymore We got politicians on Twitter. 
Like I keep saying going on there just complaining about Muppets taking vaccines Stuff like that Can I ask you I mean because I'm really not that attuned to the video game world But has there ever been a video game? 
That's all about hijacking a plane or is that considered bad taste because if it is considered bad taste Why is it okay to steal a car and kill people and run people over but not hijack a plane or maybe there's a whole Industry of plane hijacking games. 
I don't know about the people aren't talking about them You can't you can't sneak into an airport or into a military base and still playing In video and you can probably Yeah modern warfare 2 You were deep undercover and you had to shoot down civilians. 
Oh, wow. 
Okay That's part of a part of Russian terrorists is trying to frame the United States for the terrorist I'm just saying with the realism in Grand Theft Auto You know if you could get on to a plane and fly different parts of the world and then interact with people there Just saying it could be a real cultural exchange Yeah You know Alex, that's that's the next idea. 
Can you write that one down too? 
That's the the hijack a plane video game I think I think there's something there angry diplomats Where Trump is tracking down the Illuminati and the The lizard people in the in the elites Okay, yeah, you have cable TV turn turn on Fox News Channel, you'll get all that and more There is a movie on TV called Trump versus the Illuminati. 
No joke Wow All right, cool. 
I go check it out and at this whole Trump keeping nuclear secrets saying and Yeah, he kind of bit up work at you on this one calls them the Judge today went to that they clamor for so much said well, you need presents and evidence of this or else We're going to like to say his own his own judge in Florida said that Know that the one that they appeal to and they agreed to appeal to on all the appeals query. 
Okay? 
Yeah, the special master 11 special master. 
Okay. 
Yeah Yeah, New York It's just a bunch of Stupid garbage. 
I hope he goes to jail Well, there's so many possibilities because you know, I I saw a list of all the different cases right now against him And you know, they almost ran out of space on the screen. 
There's there's that many so if he doesn't go to jail He's gonna be living in hell for quite a long time Yeah, it's just unbelievable. 
You see did you see with little thing over the weekend in, Ohio? 
Yes, like playing apparently QAnon has a theme song now. 
Oh, yeah Where did the theme song where did the theme song come from? 
I never heard of a theme song let alone I I don't know, but they said it was the same song and he was playing it and now they're like saluting Like with two hands and two fingers pointed up. 
Well, no, so one finger salute, which I you know, I have a version Okay, I use a version myself on a regular basis, but not the one they were doing It's scary to see a whole bunch of people pointing out their arms straight outwards like that It's it's hilarious. 
They don't seem to know that that is is crazy-looking This how bad a Nazi is Disney was afraid to show Nazi saluting in in Captain America. 
So they had him do a dual hand salute Remember that I think so. 
I think so. 
Yeah We're gonna move on any any final thoughts I don't know. 
I'm gonna I'm gonna beg them for more stuff. 
I will get this place there and you know, all right You're definitely on a good path and you know, people are gonna notice the change and they'll they'll find out it's you Yeah, that is responsible Yeah, organizing the neighborhood and well on your way to ombudsmanship. 
Mm-hmm. 
You'd be running the place soon Yeah, I mean with the pet parade they can get like the animal shelter involved. 
Mm-hmm Get free statin and deuterium going on and that's a great idea. 
Great idea. 
Absolutely voter drive Yeah, cool, you know, I'm sorry about you guys. 
I hope you have no bother at all Just please keep us updated on these things and and and keep making the place better. 
It sounds great Okay, you have a good man. 
All right. 
Take care All right, why don't you more 802 3 2 1 4 2 2 5 8 0 2 3 2 1 hack is our telephone number It's so nice to hear from him, yeah, it is it's uplifting fun evening Can I tell a story about the special master? 
Yes, please the more the better laugh you made the special master laugh how twice You guys remember when I had jury duty in May Yeah, it was it was that judge yeah, really I've wardered in his courtroom Wow Yeah, that's what can't tell us about him. 
What you know, he he's very no-nonsense, but very kind and when he was, you know interviewing each of the jurors the perspective jurors, he was going down the list and he You know, we were in federal court in Brooklyn so it was pulling a lot from Brooklyn and Queens and there were a lot of Names that might have proved difficult for people to pronounce on first guess. 
He was mine included and He got mine right on the first go and I said well done your honor and he laughed and he said thank you. 
So You know nice guy I made him laugh with some of the answers to the questions and He then excused me from jury duty. 
So Two thumbs up because he was afraid you're gonna keep making him laugh during the trial eminently possible so Well done Gila You got out of jury duty by making the judge laugh. 
I made John Cleese laugh. 
So that's something that's very impressive I said something and he liked it on Twitter, which means he laughed or he said at least he didn't feel bad So if you can make John Cleese laugh, I think that's it. 
It's nothing more you can accomplish. 
I really know Yeah, we have another phone call. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the hook overtime Good evening gang. 
This is Tim from Connecticut. 
How you doing? 
Hey, what's up? 
Oh I wasn't gonna say anything, but I noticed on a little website CNN.com Says that the DOJ can resume the criminal probe of classified documents from Mar-a-Lago the appeal court says that that happened tonight Well, we ran came out Wow 739 Hell yeah Wow Less than an hour ago. 
Yeah, we've been unplugged offline and on air. 
So that's interesting. 
So let me let me ask Alex I wasn't I wasn't gonna call up to steer the phone conversation that way, but you've made us very happy So that's good to know but Alex may ask you So now with this happening, is there any chance that they can freeze it again and say we're going to the Supreme Court or We'll just keep going if they do go to the Supreme Court They can go to the Supreme Court now and ask the same question But my question is what would the investigation have to stop while they're waiting for the Supreme Court or will continue Until they get to the Supreme Court. 
Well, that would be up to the Supreme Court whether they grant a stay They would have to make an application for a stay. 
Okay to Essentially preserve the status quo preserve the statuses things exist at this particular moment and then And then depending upon the merits of the case and the the rights that are at issue The Supreme Court would determine whether or not to grant that stay so you so right now the Supreme Court could say All right, stop no more investigating until it gets to us They could do that or they can just let it play out or they can rule on it a month from now So I guess now we kind of wait but meanwhile While the investigators are able to actually look at the evidence They can go 24-7 right they can they can move pretty fast. 
Yeah, they they could I mean if look they would have to It's not certain at all by any means that the Supreme Court would even take this case I'm the parties would have to petition for a certiorari and then if the Supreme Court takes the case they would Determine whether and then it would decide it on on the merits, but I I would think that What trump's lawyers would probably have to do in the? 
Near immediately would be to petition for a stay at the supreme court and then file For certiorari which would be for for them to actually, you know Certify the issues in the case that would take them a lot longer and the court would have to vote on it in order to Take the case and then file for certiorari And the court would have to vote on it in order to take that particular case, but they uh, They could ask for a stay um, and if a stay were granted they would um You know, that would be a clear signal obviously that they would take the case um I I think you know They might be able to go to the circuit court and ask for a stay too if perhaps if they're asking for a rehearing Maybe if you're asking for the whole court to reconsider the issue Um rather than a panel of three judges, you know that that might be a possibility so there there might be some procedural Wrangling that they could do but what if I were And I hate to even say this if I were trump's lawyers. 
Oh boy Yeah, I know First of all, you're not getting paid Cut his mic The uh, if I were trump's lawyer What I would do is signal to the government That despite the ruling they probably should not resume Because that would prejudice trump's rights and let them know that you plan on petitioning for certiorari and filing a stay And you could signal signal the government by blinking your eyes a certain amount of times just like any hostage would But you just ask them to stay Just a little bit longer Please please. 
All right, jackson brown. 
That's enough of that So call it call any more, uh details or any other subject you want to discuss no, no, no, well, I just Like I said, I didn't mean to push it off into a political uh conversation, but this is about justice since I didn't initiate it. 
Oh and I wanted to just say to the um lady that wanted um to be Acknowledged on air with full name of all the programs that are played on bai This is not exactly the program i'd want my full information out on That's that's probably wise yeah, I probably wouldn't care but I mean here I would wouldn't you be able to say that not necessarily every nice person on earth is listening to this particular? 
It's not so much that it's just this is what we're comfortable with. 
It's what we've always done Please don't ask us to change what we do You know unless there's a really good reason for it And I think the caller's hitting it the letter sections of the You know 2600 magazine. 
It's not like everybody's name and address. 
No, we always try and obscure that, you know, unless unless told otherwise yeah, I in another way to put it would be that it's just contrary to all of um The kinds of advice we give around some of these big issues on security and privacy. 
So it would be very odd For us to make that a uh practice. 
Yeah Right intentionally, yeah, it's really weird Okay, well have a good night guys, thanks, uh, thanks for the info and thanks for calling take care sure. 
Bye. 
Bye. 
Bye Wow, uh, so now how first of all alex, did you ever? 
Appear before the special master Uh, no, I didn't okay. 
I've been before the supreme court, but not the yeah But you know gila's been in front of that judge not uh, and made him laugh twice and you've never appeared before him So I just think that's something to to relish at the moment Not not that I recall but Yeah, I don't I don't think I have but you have appeared before many judges because you're a lawyer not because you're engaged in crime That's correct. 
But um One one judge you did appear before was the judge that sentenced our friend virgil to to five years in prison Who I understand you saw recently. 
Can you tell us something about that? 
uh Uh, well, I didn't see him you're talking about judge castell. 
Yes in the southern district of new york No, I saw a uh a different judge, by the way. 
Oh, you did. 
Okay. 
I thought it was I thought you were familiar with that judge Yeah, you're talking about the eth dot link saga No, i'm not talking about that. 
I'm talking about virgil's case You know who actually got when he got sentenced by the judge. 
Oh, yeah. 
I saw I saw him. 
Yeah That's what i'm talking about, yeah, we didn't even bring up the eth dot link thing but now we'll get into that after After you tell us how virgil is because you saw him Yeah, that's correct. 
I did see I did see virgil last week and um You know, I don't want to go into obviously everything that we discussed but he is uh, he's doing much better and uh, and I think was in really good spirits and was deeply deeply appreciative of all the support from the community and I think I think that's making a real measurable difference uh for him and um, you know, he really wanted me to Reach out and thank everybody You know, it would be great if we can get him on on the show sometime somehow if we can figure out how to do that Yeah, if he's open to it It'll be difficult I think in in the short term, but you know, maybe in the long term um, you know, and that's essentially what he's got to do is is really just Yeah blend in and um and get through this uh, but you know, it was um You know, it was an ordeal getting over there and seeing him, but i'm i'm really glad that I didn't I have to say, you know um You know having a conversation with virgil is always Interesting. 
Well, he's miles ahead of you in so many ways not not you specifically, but just No, no, I mean, it's very clear. 
You're not the smartest guy in the room whenever you're talking with them, right? 
That's why the judge was so angry with him because he he's just so dwarfed in comparison Goddamn smart such a fascinating guy and and you know and inherently kind too. 
So um Yeah, it was it was good to see him. 
I'm glad that I did I'm glad that I can report that that he's doing well and and and everybody should I think you know continue to support him He's got um He's got a ways to go. 
But if we're all here for him Um, it's going to make a difference now, can you tell us a whole eth.link story whatever you're able to tell us? 
Yeah, well we talked about a couple of weeks ago. 
I'll just you know, talk about where things stand. 
Um now at the moment so we actually filed a uh a lawsuit on behalf of the ethereum name service and virgil in federal district court in phoenix, arizona, and we had Successfully argued for the return of the domain name to go back to the plaintiffs virgil griffith and the ethereum name service by obtaining a preliminary injunction against godaddy dynadot And the purchaser of the domain name when it was sold at auction for 852 around I believe 852 thousand dollars Manifold capital so that's where things stand now. 
Um, I think it was a great result huge win a big big win for virgil and the ethereum name service and um, and I think really is uh Hopefully an indication that things are are on the right track for this matter to be to be disposed of in the right way Well, uh It was really something that um That you know, he went all the way down there to take care of this Yeah, we had to we had to go into we had to go to phoenix so I I had just come back from uh, from corsica in italy and then had to get on a plane to phoenix and uh, but look we did it and I worked with some uh, an absolutely amazing team, uh, my firm with kroll and Uh, we were able to put this together over labor day weekend Put the labor unfortunately into labor day, right got this filed got called into court flew over there Uh and won the motion so, um, yeah, that's where things stand I think there's uh, still a lot of activity on this front and Uh more to report in future weeks. 
Cool All right. 
Uh, should we uh Try to take one more phone call Yeah, I think so. 
Yeah. 
All right eight zero two three two one four two two five That's our that's our phone number and Do we have do we have why am I so low all of a sudden I didn't do anything I'm just sitting here and my volume changed. 
There's something Something going on with the board over here You know what it was this This is it Kyle when you told me to turn this level down you also were turning me down it was oh wow So because of that i'm not gonna listen to you that thing where it jumps Uh, it has something to do with us looping audio back to them so they can hear us But uh, I I don't have time to play with it. 
No, none of us have any time do we have a phone call No, okay, so our listeners don't have time to call us either well we only have about a minute left before Uh, we're contractually obligated to stay Uh, so if anyone wants to call us eight zero two three two one four two two five eight oh two three two one hack and um Yeah I'm out of things to say Well while while we're waiting i'll also just uh throw out there you can find us on twitter at hacker radio show and uh A listener called uh, ryan sent us a picture over twitter, which is not really something we can relate well over audio Um, except to describe it as a picture of a bottle of barbecue sauce with off the hook written on it Which uh, wow. 
Yeah, I I appreciate I appreciate the gift of this photo. 
Thank you. 
Ryan that can be sent into Um, uh to articles at 2600.com and possibly printed on the back cover of the magazine So consider yes, ryan if you're listening, you should do this Yes before you disqualify yourself by sharing with too many people so it becomes well known before you send it in We have a call. 
We need marinating instructions, too Yes, there's a call there's a call okay and good evening you're on off the cover time Is Carl you said we had a call if this is a call it's a very quiet call Okay, that was not funny that was an off the hook tone I think so meta There was a network intervention at the top of the hour And uh, we give it another minute and then then we're out of here we'll wait but the future is also waiting And we can't spend it here with you No, but speaking of the future uh, not entirely hacking related but uh confidential to everyone who is Celebrating next week best wishes for happy healthy sweet new year Oh, yes, I thought it was the mets who we were going to be celebrating because maybe they'll be still in first place then Anything is possible. 
Also. 
I hear Aaron judge has something percolating but um yep, just Shouting out my jews. 
Uh-huh. 
Uh-huh. 
Shana tova everybody. 
Very cool Now kyle you made another mysterious motion. 
Does that mean we have a call? 
Yes. 
Okay. 
We have another call Let's try this one. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the hook overtime. 
Go ahead Hey guys, how's it going tonight? 
Hey, what's up? 
Hey, what's up? 
Hey, my name is dave. 
Uh, I thought i'd chime in on the the uh apple Kerfuffle that's been going on the last few weeks. 
Oh, I didn't know that was still going on. 
Okay, but yeah, I chime in Um, yeah, I I I think that there's I I I want to defend you a little bit um, and I I know that uh, sometimes the frameworks and the software can be confusing and stuff, but I'm, not an apple fan boy. 
I'm not calling it as an apple fan boy I'm an old commodore ibm guy from the early days um, but uh It's a hardware company essentially and I don't know. 
I wanted to hear your thoughts on if you're going for like a security Minded point of view wouldn't you want a hardware company to be on your side? 
Instead of a instead of an advertising company. 
Oh, that's a good point Yeah electrical electrical engineering and uh other um areas of expertise are Maybe not not uh staffed in the same way as at alphabet Huh interesting and any any thoughts gila? 
I just appreciated the defending gila part. 
I very much appreciate that caller. 
Thank you. 
Um I I do feel like my dignity was impugned a little bit but No, I mean I don't want to have to go through a second step I don't know why I have to run everything through itunes and I can't just Like there's an mp3 file somewhere on my phone and I can't just hit a button and play it That's all I want to do. 
That's all I want to do I want to listen to our wedding song on a regular basis. 
Is that so wrong? 
well That's the question I guess I think that's the User-friendly aspect of it. 
I think at at the core of it though. 
We're talking about like a unix based system from security Which is you know, like mixin unix kind of have that under control whereas windows took years to catch up um and You know mp, you know, like how you get your files around Can be annoying but I would think at the end of the day we would want to support the more security minded platforms And I I'm of the I'm of the mindset that now at least Apple Is more in tune with that that could change and it may not have always been the case, but I think that's where we're at I'm i'm not wading into this one. 
But uh any any thoughts from you guys and uh, we'll uh, we'll we'll leave it I guess I I just have an intrinsic distaste for any time. 
I'm using a computer that is trying to hide from me what it's doing Wow On any level it's like a car when it has one thing that's like something is wrong with your car It's the same kind of thing Tell me be specific let me know what you're doing But yes, thank you for coming to my defense caller we're all so terrified But yeah, thanks for thanks for entertaining my call i'll call back all right Yeah Thanks for listening and uh, if any of your uh observations are totally welcome anytime please others I've been listening for 25 years. 
I want to keep with as long as you can do it Wow, you might need a break. 
I mean 25 years. 
That's a long time to deal with us not continuously Even so but wow, thank you for thank you for your support Yeah, all right. 
Take care Wow, okay, that's a good call to end on I think yeah, I was just going to add further insights Uh, please write us oth at 2600.com. 
I was very serious about my question about uh, Accessing sim like what what kinds of software? 
What do people do when you're moving? 
Information from a sim or you just want to interrogate a sim you want to have a real stern conversation about what kind of data? 
Is there? 
Uh, I have a couple i'm playing around with and i'm i'm really curious what the state of the art is And I like the idea of of keeping your your data on a sim That way you can just take it out of the phone whenever you want if you're going through a border And just put it somewhere else or mail it to yourself or something. 
Of course, you know encrypted uh, but maybe that's a better way than keeping things on your phone if they're going to uh, basically violate your rights and search it without a warrant Although if you're using the next generation of iphone, I think they've announced that it's going to be seamless You see now here we go again with it with mac, you know apple and that's so true rob I mean, you're right. 
It's these decisions. 
It's all a virtual sim now, uh, or assigned Numbers or serialization instead of a physical Um a piece of hardware. 
How about this? 
I'm sure this software exists where you just basically hit a button and your entire phone is encrypted And that's it and and uh, it can't be unencrypted for real encrypted for real encrypted not just You know a passcode to open up unlock your phone that they can guess but a passphrase something, you know, really difficult Are they saying that you have to basically give up your phone if you won't tell them what it is? 
You know has this been tested? 
I'm sure it has Yeah, I mean all the encryption in the world won't help you if you're in a situation in which an authority figure is Telling you you have to unlock this for me now Yeah, I would refuse to do that but I would I would prefer it if um It was backed up someplace else so I could still get to it Yeah, play the game the way they're playing I mean if they're if they're creating a choke point with devices just make it so that you're not bringing devices through that I mean, that's the the way to not be uh, uh considered disrupting it and uh, You just have to work around this stuff. 
It's a physical network There's uh, of course a huge virtual network that we're all using all the time So I think that you you must uh, uh act accordingly until these things have built-in protections. 
So we actually understand um who actually is accessing some of this stuff and um really if there is real justification or if um, it's being considered an accident and all that kind of stuff, you know, or just sort of oops, we just took everything and uh, We we have some loss somewhere some or it's somebody's call the in the moment and uh, no accountability I know what if we made our own sim card? 
Okay for those phones that use sims and we simply uh populated it with uh, all kinds of messages and contacts and things like that, but it's just You know our version. 
It's just we make we create a fake persona And a history in life and we we we basically sell that to people And then when they come into a border they take their sim card out They put ours in they have a whole new identity And before you know it cousins and border patrol are getting all these phones from people that are all the same person That drives them crazy. 
Alex write that one down. 
That's that's my best one yet. 
That's that's that's the one I want to go with tonight. 
I got it. 
I got it. 
I got what do we call that one spartacus sim spartacus sim I am spartacus. 
I love it. 
That's beautiful. 
That's amazing Okay, we got to cut off because we're coming up too many ideas and the listeners are going to take them all Thank you listeners Yeah that and the algorithms And uh, please write to us oth at 2600.com. 
We'll see you next week really want two weeks in a row Are they mad that hasn't happened in a while? 
Keep hacking. 
Yeah, and uh, we'll be back on bai at 7 p.m And on youtube at 8 p.m and um Write to us oth at 2600.com and keep alert and awake and let us know what you find out. 
Thanks for listening. 
Good night