We're sorry. 
The number you have reached, 99.5 WBAI, is now off the hook. 
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall. 
I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call. 
We couldn't get much worse, but if they could, they would. 
One Big Big Bump, but the best is back from worse. 
I hope that's understood. 
One Big Big Bump! 
We'll see you next week. 
Thanks for reading. 
Thanks for listening. 
Thank you. 
finds fun We'll see you next week. 
We'll see you next week. 
Thank you. 
This is one of those times. 
So if you're listening right now, it's your lucky day. 
Yes, Off the Hook is back. 
We were not on last three weeks, I don't believe. 
So here we are. 
This is Emmanuel. 
Over there is Kyle. 
Yes, indeed. 
I got the name. 
Okay. 
It's been so long. 
I almost forgot your name. 
That's the right name. 
Unfortunately, the other co-hosts of the program have since retired because it's been such a long time since we've been on. 
Yeah, I'm going to keep this up all hour. 
I'm going to be rubbing it in all hour long. 
But no, we do have some special guests tonight. 
Well, funny story. 
We'll tell you a little bit later. 
But joining us from, I believe, the German Republic is Mitch Altman. 
Is that correct? 
I see his mouth moving, but I don't hear any words. 
Okay. 
We've gotten good at this, but apparently not good enough. 
Yeah, somebody's muted somewhere along the line and figured in the last three years we should have gotten this right. 
I want to try again. 
We have the potential here on our end. 
We have Mitch's connection. 
Anything else that we could possibly be muting? 
Mitch, you have to say something, otherwise we don't know if you're - he's still muted. 
Okay. 
Well, while we're figuring that out, we have another guest. 
This is why we have two guests. 
And coming from the wilds of the Yukon, we have Greg Newby. 
Hey, can you hear me now? 
I hear you fine. 
It just goes to show - It's a pleasure to be here. 
I am in Yukon, and I am very interested in hearing more about this off-the-hook retirement plan. 
It sounds like something maybe I could buy into. 
No, you don't want that. 
It's not a good plan. 
But this is testament to the fact that the telephone always is dependable and always works in the end. 
So we're talking to Greg on a good old-fashioned telephone line. 
Are you on a cell phone or a landline? 
So this is an interesting story. 
I'm on what you would call a landline, except it's actually a radio telephone. 
So I'm not connected to the electrical grid or the telephone grid, but I am on a regular phone with a regular dial tone. 
Wow. 
Well, that's great. 
And we have the same here. 
So it's basically kind of a landline-to-landline situation. 
Amazing. 
Glad you made it. 
And I want to try again with this other technology. 
What's going on? 
Hey, Mitch has a cat in back of him. 
Look at that. 
Well, that's, I think, the engineer. 
That's the problem. 
That's definitely why it's not working. 
But we just have to bypass the cat somehow and get his audio back. 
The video is great. 
Oh, there he is. 
I hear you. 
I hear you. 
Mitch. 
Skype automatically connected me to the mic it thought was good and not the mic that I normally use. 
So the cat is not the problem. 
It's the technology itself. 
Well, the cat literally just jumped up on the table while you were talking. 
You might have heard the thud. 
So if the cat is not the problem now, it will be the problem sometime this hour. 
Boy, that cat has energy. 
That cat took off. 
You know how in the cartoons there's like a little puff of smoke? 
I saw the puff of smoke. 
That's incredible. 
Yeah, the Warner Brothers people definitely had cats. 
Greetings from Berlin. 
Berlin in Germany. 
I got the country right. 
That's great. 
And Greg is in the Yukon. 
We're here in New York. 
So basically we're covering a good part of the planet. 
So that's good to know. 
Now, funny story. 
I said I'd tell a funny story. 
We weren't on last week. 
We were preempted at the last minute, literally the last minute. 
And there's a story behind that. 
You might have heard that we moved our transmitter a couple of years ago from the Price Gouging Empire State Building to the much nicer four times square, a little bit further north in the city, but not quite as high. 
But unfortunately, there's a little feature that comes along with that new site. 
They were doing maintenance for about, it felt like a month. 
It might have just been a few weeks, but it was in the middle of the day, literally from around eight in the morning to around five in the afternoon for an entire week at a time. 
And, you know, you don't have to know a lot about radio to know that pretty much cuts into your broadcast day something fierce. 
And when you're trying to raise funds constantly, as we are here at WBAI, because we don't have any commercials, well, yeah, you find yourself at a disadvantage. 
Now, we are not the highest fundraisers on the radio station, unfortunately. 
In the past, we have been. 
But, you know, things change and I don't know. 
But for some reason, there are other programs that if you fill them in, they get more of a response. 
So, you know, we can understand. 
We can't understand why, you know, the last minute notification, that was a little annoying. 
But I can certainly understand why the station needs to think of its future. 
That's the most important thing. 
And, of course, if you do support the station, I would hope that you would support the station by either calling 212-209-2950 or going to the website, give2wbai.org. 
That's give the number to wbai.org. 
And showing your support and saying thanks for having this amazing place. 
So we had you guys scheduled last week. 
We wanted to have just the two of you on. 
And, of course, you made all these plans. 
You canceled a wedding. 
There's all sorts of things that, you know, you did just to join us. 
And we really appreciate that. 
And we had to tell you they canceled the show at the last possible minute. 
So we said, okay, next week, meaning this week. 
And then we found out about a couple of hours earlier that they wanted to cancel us again this week to raise funds again. 
And we had a discussion about it. 
And it was rethought. 
And here you are now. 
I'm not sure if we're going to be on next week or the week after. 
You know, it's a week-to-week thing. 
But the important thing is that the stations stay on the air. 
So, you know, as inconvenient or annoying as it might be to us or our listeners, let's just not forget that is the main goal. 
And that is something that we have been successfully doing since 1960. 
So let's try and keep the station on at least until 2060. 
Yeah. 
The time is absolutely critical to contribute, wrangle as much support, spread the word, tell people about programs. 
And let's look at our accomplishments. 
Having weathered so much over the years, this is not insurmountable. 
But it really is about getting as many people to sign up, become recurring members, part of the WBAI Buddy program, or just a one-time gift. 
It's that end-of-year season. 
So think of giving a tax-deductible donation to this wonderful nonprofit here in the city of New York and serving so many communities through our web presence. 
And we do as much as we can here. 
So please give back. 
Think of us. 
And that amount, anything you can do, a small donation, incremental donations over the year, please do what you can. 
It makes so much of a difference. 
And we hope to continue capital improvements and getting programming and other exciting new things off the ground. 
But we need the support. 
I look forward to seeing the studio again. 
We haven't seen the studio in three years. 
You know, so we're actually two years, but still, two and a half years. 
It's been a while, and I'd like to actually see people again. 
That would be nice. 
But obviously, we're not quite there yet, but we've made a lot of progress. 
But I think this also points out the importance of radio. 
Like, people say, why don't you just do a podcast? 
And the podcasts are all fun, glory, and all that. 
But you don't get any, at least in our case, you don't get anywhere near the same audience as you do with radio. 
I know other podcasts do. 
Ours does not. 
And I think this also is proven by the fact that the station was off the air, but broadcasting on the Internet. 
And we weren't able to reach our goals because online simply wasn't enough. 
On air is what matters. 
Well, and podcasting has become very popular, and it is a quite saturated and intense marketplace of ideas and time. 
There are very long, lots of audio, long-form productions. 
People are getting really into it, and commercial, non-commercial stuff. 
We like the path we've navigated so far, and a big part of that is radio being on formats that are not necessarily the same as the tech we talk about. 
But it's critical that we have a voice. 
There are so many different things going on with legislation, going on with the public airwaves, the society, the community in general. 
And when there's an emergency, a crisis, when you have to get the word out, whatever it may be, we want to be here, this station, this type of broadcasting, community radio in general. 
So that spirit is just as important to us as being able to share with you just our thoughts for an hour in the evening or on some other mode. 
Either way, it is important to us to be able to share, but this would be not the same if we abandoned this format. 
No, I'm only comfortable if I know my voice is emanating through the atmosphere from a transmitter somewhere. 
You know, that's how I feel comfortable. 
It's not the same thing to have your voice going through a wire or, you know, on Wi-Fi or anything like that. 
It's just not the same. 
It's not the same feeling. 
Plus, there's this other amazing part about radio. 
You never know who's listening. 
Online, you can look. 
You can see. 
You can actually see the IPs of people who are connecting. 
It's a lot more intrusive, a lot less privacy. 
Radio is anonymous. 
Radio, you can just be listening under your covers. 
You can be listening in your car. 
There's all sorts of magic involved in that unknown. 
And you find out later how many people actually were listening because they remember. 
They talk to you. 
They say, I heard you on the radio as I was driving across the bridge. 
And, you know, these moments matter. 
So to all the people listening to us now on 99.5, it's good to have you back. 
It's good to be back. 
All right, folks. 
Sorry, we've talked enough, Mitch and Greg. 
Anything you want to share about radio or perhaps things that you're up to right now? 
Well, I definitely support the WBAI mission and encourage everything you just said. 
It seems like there's a lot going on in the tech world. 
I have a lot going on with my own personal telecommunication. 
I wouldn't mind telling you about some of that journey. 
And I'm also interested, though, to hear a little bit about Mitch's travels. 
You know, Mitch is kind of the - I think of you, Mitch, as kind of the Johnny Appleseed of making and soldering and building and arduinos and stuff like that. 
And I know you've been out and about, and I'd love to catch up on that as well. 
All right, let's talk about those things. 
And at some point during the hour, we will tell you how we managed to get kicked off of YouTube. 
Yeah, again, actually. 
We had an incident during Hope, but this was a bigger incident that happened since the last time we were on the air. 
So we'll talk about that as well. 
But first, I want to hear what you guys have been up to. 
Mitch, why don't we start with you? 
If that cat doesn't hit you in the head. 
No, no. 
Jumping all over the place. 
He knows - he's very energetic, and he's like two and a half years old, and you should have seen him when he was a kitten. 
But he doesn't go on my keyboard. 
He's the only cat I've ever had who doesn't go on my keyboard. 
And he knows when his claws are out not to break human skin. 
So he's a good kitty cat. 
For now, he is. 
Yeah, but he's also - I've been traveling a lot since March, and I just got back from a maker fair in a town - the second biggest town in Czech Republic, which is very difficult to pronounce because it only has one vowel, and it's at the end. 
Well, you're going to have to try to pronounce it. 
I want to hear this. 
Yeah, I'll try to pronounce it Bruno. 
The Germans, they just put a vowel in theirs, and they just call it Brun. 
Wait, wait, wait. 
How do you get the U sound without a vowel? 
You try it. 
Well, I'm assuming it's spelled B-R-U something, right? 
No, it's B-R-N-O. 
Really? 
There's no U there. 
Wow. 
Yeah, there's no U. 
I remember a long time ago, back when there used to be Yugoslavia. 
Remember that? 
Yeah, totally. 
Yeah, and then our illustrious country decided to bomb the hell out of it, but the Union had an article that said there was a serious lack of vowels there, and they were going to do a vowel drop. 
Wow, okay. 
Yeah, that's what I think of when I go to a city with a name that has only one vowel at the end. 
But it's a really cool town, a lot of universities, they have a maker fair, and it was mobbed. 
It had a really beautiful early 20th century architecture building, exhibition center. 
I did a bunch of workshops, two just for teachers, to teach teachers how to teach this kind of tech, and then two for general public, people of all ages, of course, people soldered, and I can say solder now because I'm talking to the United States of America, not Europe, where I have to add the L sound because there's an L in that word, remember? 
Yeah, but they make you do that? 
Well, people in Europe, if you don't pronounce the L, they look at you very oddly, and same with in the UK, so I have to say solder, and that always sounds weird to me, but it sounds normal to people here. 
Well, yeah, they do look at me very, very oddly. 
It's good to know why now. 
I didn't know that was the reason. 
Yeah, well, there might be other reasons. 
I always suspected there were, but you make it sound so simple, so all I have to do is throw that L in there, and they'll stop looking at me like that. 
Try it and see if it helps. 
It helps for me in certain occasions. 
Okay, I'll get off the play and start shouting solder and see what happens. 
Yeah, I think a lot of people will look at you strangely, but your mileage may vary. 
Yeah, so I was there, and because of that, the cat has missed me, so he's now very excited that I'm home. 
And, yeah, I'm also now, you know, so there's this annual Congress conference in Germany put on by the Chaos Computer Club that you and Kyle are aware of, and Greg as well, and many of the listeners. 
This would have been the 39th Chaos Communications Congress, but it was only going to be called the 37th because the last two, well, pandemic, you know. 
Just can't get to that 40, can we? 
Well, time keeps happening regardless, and the black hole of a pandemic, black hole of time during a pandemic. 
But, yeah, it was canceled, so they couldn't really decide what the best approach would be to have a huge Congress of many thousands of people getting together in a beautiful hall in Hamburg. 
Couldn't figure out what the best approach might be while a pandemic is still happening with unknown rules and regulations about to hit. 
So they canceled it, and now they're pushing for a decentralized one. 
And a lot of people are stepping up to the plate, including us here in Berlin. 
We're going to try to rent the place that it used to be at when it was in Berlin, the Berliner Congress Center. 
That is such a great idea. 
The BCC, the Berliner Conference Center, was where the Chaos Communication Congress used to be held. 
It was the most fantastic setting, but it can only hold about, what, 2,500 people or so. 
So CCC grew really, really big and moved to a much larger place, but I think it lost some of the magic. 
I've always hoped that someday they would somehow have a conference there, maybe at the same time as the Congress or something independent. 
It seems like this might actually happen, though. 
Yeah, it's definitely happening. 
We may or may not be able to have it at BCC because we got a quote from them, and it was rather expensive. 
But we negotiated with them, and they dropped the price considerably because they really like the idea of CCC people coming back to BCC. 
There's a lot of Cs here and a B, but no vowels, you'll notice. 
Anyways, but there are other options. 
There's another possibility that just came up today and that the city of Berlin, I believe it is, or maybe it's the federal government here, offers a grant for putting on conferences. 
And they'll pay up to perhaps 60 euros per participant. 
And if that's the case, then maybe we can have even tickets for outrageously cheap. 
The biggest problem we would have if this is actually going to work for us is how do we have a conference of only 999 people, that's our limit, when there are way more people than that who want a ticket? 
Yeah, well, that's always been the problem, and that could be mitigated, I suppose, if there were lots of conferences going on in lots of cities throughout Germany. 
But Berlin, obviously, is the big one. 
Yeah, and especially if it's at the BCC, because a lot of older folks like us who've been to BCC when it was happening there really have fond memories of it, because it's a beautiful place, and it's a perfect place to have a really cool conference in Berlin. 
So, yeah, well, we have the voucher system where we'll give vouchers to people, and then they can give it to people, and then it self-replicates once someone gets a ticket. 
It's kind of complicated, but it works. 
New people will come because people are friends of friends of friends, and if you give vouchers to people within the community, then people within the community have a chance to go. 
So it's not ideal, but it's an okay enough compromise, maybe. 
Maybe we can limit the stay to like an hour. 
People can go there, but they only stay an hour, and then a whole new flock of people come in for the next hour, and that way we can fit everybody. 
Yeah, timeshare it. 
Probably not. 
No? 
I'm trying to help you. 
I'm coming up with ideas. 
Appreciate it. 
There are no bad ideas. 
No, they're just stupid ones. 
Thank you. 
Thank you very much. 
So what else? 
Any Maker Faire? 
That sounds awesome. 
I'm glad there are still Maker Faires around. 
I really miss the big Maker Faire that used to take place in Queens. 
And, you know, as we found out, or we already knew, but a lot of people found out this summer with the Hope Conference, Queens is an awesome borough, and you can have a lot of fun in Queens, and we certainly hope to have tons more fun in future years with future Hope conferences. 
But, boy, I do miss the autumn Maker Faire that used to take place on the old World's Fairgrounds in Queens. 
Maybe it'll come back someday. 
I hope so. 
So the organization that put on Maker Faire and Make Magazine went out of business, but then they reformed with a slightly different name. 
And I'm not sure what the status is of Maker Faires at this point. 
But in Europe and elsewhere in the world, people are still using the branding, even though it's, I guess, unofficial now, as far as the original, you know, company goes. 
So if somebody wanted to host 100,000 people in the middle of Queens and really make, you know, a lot of kids really, really happy and show technology and, you know, teach soldering and all kinds of other things like that, they might be able to license the name and do it that way. 
That's a possibility. 
Yeah, they definitely can do that. 
And I'm not even sure if there's an organization that licenses the name anymore, maybe, but Make Community, I think, is the name of the organization now, and with the original person that started at Dale Doherty. 
Yeah, they were fantastic. 
I was involved for five years at the beginning, five years from 2006 to 2011, pouring my heart and soul and volunteering into helping grow that community. 
And, yeah, it was super, super fun. 
And I haven't been to a Maker Faire in so long. 
So it felt really, really good to be there. 
There's Maker Faire, and they pronounce it without vowels again, so I'm not going to attempt it. 
But the Czech Republic has, I think, eight Maker Faires, and Bruno is the most recent one, and they're going to do more. 
And people who I taught how to teach are going to give workshops at the next ones. 
And, yeah, I look forward to more of those. 
But there's a lot of conferences that have been happening this summer since they've been allowed, as Hope was allowed, which we're so grateful for. 
And, yeah, so I've been teaching soldering or soldering, depending on where you are in the world, at all of them, and also giving talks. 
And I was in the Czech Republic just three weeks ago for - and, again, there's a lot of words without vowels, which I won't pronounce. 
But it was a really cool conference, which is, thankfully, shortened with an acronym, HCPP. 
And HCPP is an organization that has a parallel society that only works with cryptocurrency payments. 
And these people are really going for trying to make a new world separate from our capitalist society. 
It's kind of interesting. 
Anyways, I gave a talk where it has one of my favorite themes, which is getting people to quit jobs that they don't like. 
And after the talk, three people promised to quit their job, and one person already did. 
So I think that was successful. 
Wow. 
Greg, we can't see you. 
So if you have any questions or things you want to say to Mitch or in response to what he's saying, please feel free. 
Well, congratulations to those people that quit their jobs. 
That's a great, courageous step forward to whatever's next. 
And resisting the fear of what's next, I think, is an important message. 
Absolutely. 
Definitely. 
So any other adventures, Mitch, or is that pretty much summing up since hope? 
Oh, there's been so many places that I've been, but yeah, that's probably enough, because the other places were similar kinds of stories. 
And I love doing this. 
I've been going around the world teaching people since 2007, and people often say, doesn't traveling get you all exhausted? 
Yes, of course it does, physically, but psychically, I get way more energized, and I can always sleep, so I do. 
And then I wake up and do it again. 
Can you outline the places that you have been since you were in Queens this summer? 
Let's see. 
Where have I been since then? 
And by the way, if you like a place with no vowels, go to Wales. 
I've been to Wales. 
Actually, that was one of the places I went to. 
Okay, there you go. 
North Wales, there's a friend who I met through going to Chaos Communications Club events, who bought a small cathedral or a large chapel made out of stones, very big stones with a rose window and everything. 
And he's got a hacker space there that some people live in, and there's a really nice community there. 
He calls it Astral Ship, and when he has an event there, he calls it a voyage, and, you know, a bunch of hippies, you know, how we are. 
So it was super fun, and we had a bunch of workshops. 
There's some small organic farms there, and I showed them how to automate some of their processes. 
That was very manually intensive for keeping small plants alive, and now a lot of that's automated, so they can hopefully grow better quality food and more of it with less effort. 
So, you know, that was a really cool thing. 
Go ahead, Greg. 
Yeah, I just want to plug your Instagram, Mitch, because I saw some of the pictures of this, and they were fantastic, and I know your Instagram is public. 
So people are interested in this type of setup. 
It's sort of a whole environmentally focused or sort of a minimalist or I don't even know what to call it, sustainable, you know, environment for growing stuff and making stuff. 
Did he have a brewery of some sort also or something like there's some alcohol involved, but vegetables and all kinds of things? 
Yeah, there's a group that makes their own beer over there, and I don't drink, so I couldn't taste it, but other people say it's really good. 
And what was that Instagram page again? 
What is my - I think I'm Mitch Altman23 on Instagram, and everywhere else I'm Maltman23, but that was taken on Instagram when I got it. 
Now, you were listing some other places you had been? 
Let's see if I can even remember. 
My brain is kind of tired right now. 
I was just in a sauna for the last several hours before coming home to be on Skype. 
What a life you lead out there, Mitch, I got to say. 
It's incredible. 
You're talking to people by cathedrals and just wandering around Europe teaching people how to solder. 
If you know how to solder, you likely know it because Mitch taught you at some point. 
Think about that. 
Yeah, I've only taught about 90,000 people how to solder, and I wrote a comic book for the people I haven't taught directly. 
Okay. 
Well, comic books are the best way of learning. 
I'm sorry. 
I keep interrupting you. 
So any other places you remember, any other countries? 
Yeah, so I was in - that was before Hope. 
I was at EMF camp, and that's in the UK. 
There were 5,000 people there, and we set up a large hardware hacking area. 
I hang out with a lot of Belgians, and there's this one Belgian who has a gigantic bus that has a gigantic tent that attaches to it. 
Where we can seat over 100 people underneath it, and we made lots and lots of food. 
The previous camp that we did the bus, we went through 120 kilograms of potatoes and made fries because, you know, Belgians need to make fries, and I'm an honorary Belgian. 
I don't drink beer, which kind of gets in the way of the honorary Belgian thing, but they had plenty of that to give to other people who enjoy it. 
But, yeah, let's see. 
Where else? 
MCH I couldn't go to because we couldn't avoid having it on the same weekend as Hope. 
That was the Dutch hacker camp that we were supposed to be simulcasting, but we never heard from them during Hope. 
But I heard it happened, and people were happy with it. 
It did, and they had a tent where they could talk to us in that one classroom, upper floor in St. 
John's. 
Yeah, anyways, there's lots of travels in there. 
And, yeah, being in the old country was really good to visit friends, and, of course, there were 1,200 of my closest friends at Hope, some of them new friends who I'm definitely keeping in touch with, and who I'll see again hopefully here in Berlin at the end of December, which is when our - I think we're calling it hacking in parallel. 
Well, HIP. 
That would be the second HIP, because hacking in progress took place in 1997 in the Netherlands. 
Yeah, and it's sort of a nod to them as well. 
All right, well, hopefully they don't nod to you in the courtroom and take action against using the same acronym, but we'll see. 
Because I'm friends with the person who named that one. 
Okay, all right. 
Hold on to that. 
Greg, tell us what you've been up to. 
Well, nothing quite as illuminating. 
So after the Hackers on Planet Earth conference in Queens, it was mostly catch up and rest and carry on. 
I had a - I think my only travel, actually, was I had a foot race in Alberta, sort of a couple hours out of Edmonton last month. 
So that was nice, exhausting, as they always are. 
And otherwise, I've stayed at home, carried on with workplace stuff, getting ready for the winter, which has started here in Yukon. 
And we've got snow on the ground, and we'll probably have snow on the ground for the next seven months. 
Wow. 
And also, I'm very distracted with trying to figure out an Internet solution post-ExploreNet pre-Starlink, which will be - that'll be my scenario in the new year on January 1st, having sort of a shortage of Internet here in the home front. 
Well, yeah, it's a challenge where you are, because you're off the grid, right? 
Yeah, it's kind of doubly challenging. 
So, of course, being off the grid always creates its own challenges, so I don't have an opportunity for DSL or an actual fiber or copper line coming to my house, because I'm off the grid. 
But also, I'm in a northern community a little bit north of Whitehorse in Canada. 
And Canada is about like the U.S. as far as rural Internet, which is to say not good. 
Rural Internet is not so good in the U.S., and it's not so good in Canada, despite having received incredible government subsidies over the years to the telecoms. 
So it's not good in the first place, but also I'm off grid, so I can't even get the stuff that's not so good that my neighbors have. 
They have the DSL and complain about it. 
So my situation as two components, not counting the radio telephone that I'm talking to you on now, but for Internet, we have the mobile cellular data, so your regular LTE4 mobile cellular network, which is not always terrible, but sometimes it's terrible due to capacity limits. 
And then also we've had something called ExploreNet, which is just like Qsnet is in the U.S. 
So this is a geosynchronous satellite. 
So you have a dish, a KU band dish that points towards the southern sky. 
And this is actually remarkably reliable, but it's kind of laggy, and also, in other words, the latency is not so good, and also the congestion is an issue. 
So we do end up, particularly in the evenings, with very, very slow Internet service. 
And just to give you an idea, like a typical sort of low-end DSL might be 150 megabits, sorry, 150 kilobits. 
150 megabits would be good. 
No, 150 kilobits downlink speed. 
And we're kind of lucky if we ever see that. 
Like every once in a while, we'll get a megabit, but we don't reliably get DSL speed with ExploreNet. 
And that's a fascinating technology. 
The geosynchronous satellite technology is great stuff, very important. 
These are in the same realm as our TV satellites and a lot of other important telecommunications satellites, 22,600 miles in the sky. 
Finally, the particular satellite that we use for this company, ExploreNet, is, however, deorbiting. 
It's run out of propellant, and it reached its end of life a couple of years earlier than expected. 
So suddenly we got a note earlier in the year. 
Actually, it came up two years ago, and then they extended. 
So we got a note earlier in the year that they were decommissioning the satellite at the end of this calendar year. 
So we're going to be down to mobile data only, which, as I mentioned. 
They didn't have a plan for that? 
They didn't have a plan for decommissioning their satellite? 
I think they have a plan that involves people elsewhere that are going to pay more money for their services. 
So rural, and this is why telecom and rural areas are so bad in the U.S. as well. 
Rural areas just don't have the density of people to make the dollars that these companies want to make. 
So I think they maybe eventually have another satellite going up. 
But at the same time, they know that low-Earth orbit solutions are what's coming in. 
And so Starlink, of course, is the Elon Musk company where the satellites are on the order of a few hundred miles high instead of 22,000 miles high, which is an interesting variety of technical standpoints. 
But the same companies that have the geosynchronous satellites, their next step is to do the low-Earth orbit satellites rather than more geosynchronous satellites. 
So now when Starlink starts operating, do you know when that will be? 
How will that affect you? 
It's an unknown. 
So Starlink is available, and they have a coverage map, and they've been in the news for providing coverage to Ukraine, which turns out to be pretty important for their purposes in fighting off the Russians there. 
But in order to serve the northern communities above about 54 degrees, and I'm just a little bit above that, a little further north than that, they have to have polar-orbiting satellites as opposed to satellites that are more close to the equator. 
So if you look at a given satellite, it's sort of looping around the Earth and processing, but it doesn't go too far out of its zone where it launches. 
So they haven't launched the polar satellites yet. 
They've only done, I think, three launches, and they need eight launches. 
So we're waiting patiently for Starlink to decide that. 
One thing that's cool, recent news, is that Starlink is now selling service to airplanes that go across the poles as opposed to ones that are just sort of in the mid-latitudes. 
And in order to do that, they have to launch these other satellites. 
So I'm sort of hopeful that they'll be doing it by the first quarter of 2023, which is kind of what they're talking about. 
Quite a challenge. 
I mean, you know, next time we complain about our bandwidth, I guess we should think about, you know, you up there in the wilds of the Yukon and you're getting by with a couple hundred kilobits. 
Yeah. 
That's like the thrill of a high-speed modem almost. 
You know, it's not a whole lot faster than that compared to, you know, fiber-to-the-home type of situation. 
Yeah, and of course we do have Iridium. 
Like there's, you know, there's a couple of other services. 
So, you know, we can use an inner-reach type of phone or like a Garmin, you know, tracker, spot tracker, these types of things. 
So it's not that we don't have coverage. 
And we can watch TV. 
You know, we have those satellites are still there. 
But in terms of the bidirectional Internet, there's very few choices that are available up here. 
Well, you know, in a way it's kind of refreshing. 
I know that's not much comfort if you really want to do something online. 
But still, you know, the way people are attached to being connected constantly all the time, they forget the magic of just, you know, being in a forest or in a field or something like that. 
So hopefully you get some comfort from those moments. 
Well, we get both. 
Yeah, we get both. 
We do get the magic of being in the field and looking out over Lake LaBerge, which is the lake that's in the cremation of Sam McGee by the service. 
Oh, great form. 
Literally out my window. 
Yeah, so I'm in an amazing location. 
And as soon as I leave the small coverage area of my mobile booster device, I have no mobile phone service. 
But at the same time, I do appreciate the value of having somewhat better Internet because often it's just unusable. 
Like we literally can't, you know, watch a video, load an email, whatever, because all the kids are home from school watching YouTube and playing games and stuff like that and sucking up all of our precious Internet. 
Yeah. 
So we do appreciate it when there's a shortage, that's for sure. 
That demand is immediate, yet these projects have taken so much time and dollars to be projected and people making these sort of sales or business decisions around it, not really acknowledging in the process just how many lives are really out in the wind without it. 
And even in suburban areas, you get incredibly slow speeds like you referenced over DSL, and, you know, not to mention rural areas like where you are and, of course, off the grid. 
I just am really encouraged by some of those connectivity projects in far-flung places, just hearing more about them. 
Those can then become hubs for other modes of connectivity like wireless. 
So, fingers crossed, but I can see you're sort of straddling it there. 
And like you're saying, it's like unusable, and you're really just paying for the ability to pay a bill. 
Like you can't even go online and pay your bill with the service that you're paying for, and that is it. 
You know, if it's unusable for the demand you have now, it feels just really pointless. 
But it sounds like you're getting creative. 
It truly is disenfranchising. 
You know, and this has always been the argument for rural telecom, you know, all the way back to when we were just talking about basic phone connectivity and then modem connectivity and things like long-distance charges was disenfranchising to not have access to this or to just pay, you know, really a high multiple of what everyone else is paying, to have basic ability to, you know, order from the Sears catalog on the phone or have 911 service or things like that. 
And, yeah, it's a brutal story of how the telecom industry has taken and taken government subsidies and charged really high prices and just failed to deliver at the rural level. 
These are problems that a lot of First Nations communities are facing constantly because they're in remote areas, many of them, and they simply don't get the same level of service and are forever at a disadvantage. 
It really can be extremely frustrating. 
And you see the same dichotomies in cities where, like, oh, all the condos, they have great Internet there, but these other places in industrial and other parts of town, they don't get anything, or they get a subpar service, the investment doesn't ever get there. 
It can be just as distinct in a densely populated area or, like, suburban area. 
You know, Greg, you were mentioning how it's impossible to stream a movie online. 
It seems to me that if there is ever a place where a video store could still survive, it's where you are. 
Well, there are. 
Yeah, there's one in the little mini mall not too far from where we drive into town. 
So, yeah, there are still video stores here. 
I don't think there's actually a blockbuster, but there's, you know, a homegrown one, which is even more surprising. 
Yeah, we do, you know, we are able to get videos, and people watch, you know, Netflix and all that sort of thing, but it's not always available because of congestion. 
You know, it's just sometimes unusably slow because there are too many people trying to use the network at the same time. 
So, yeah, so we're looking for one thing that's done for us is we're looking more carefully at outer space because of the, you know, the potential of these low-Earth orbit satellites being a real solution and an equalizer for rural internet because not only is it, you know, good for people that are just off the beaten path a little bit, a little bit further north, but it also is a solution for people that are in a truly disconnected area, so people that are, you know, on a highway or in a park or something in the middle of nowhere. 
And so I find myself paying attention to Starlink and their various competitors. 
You know, SpaceX, of course, is the one that puts up the Starlink satellites. 
And, you know, looking at the couple of other competitors to them, like One Earth, yeah, One, was it One Earth? 
I can't remember. 
One Earth, One Web, but a couple other companies that are promising to do the same thing, but so far only one company is actually doing it at scale, which is a Starlink company. 
That's fascinating, too. 
I mean, what does it mean, I think, is what I'm hearing in your comments. 
What does it mean to have a competition for this at that altitude? 
And, you know, when it gets competitive for certain coverage areas, or would people in a certain area that maybe have an interest in owning the infrastructure, are they even able to access and compete? 
I mean, can you launch satellites like that? 
I mean, it's really kind of turned that into a marketplace that, I don't know, it has its own limitations and barriers, much in the same way broadband rollouts are the same, like relying on big investments. 
This is Off the Hook. 
We're broadcasting for another just under 10 minutes, I think. 
You can write to us, OTH at 2600.com. 
We're talking to Greg Newby up there in the Yukon and Mitch Altman in Berlin. 
I wanted to tell the story about YouTube because it's kind of momentous and kind of crazy what happened to us. 
As you know, we have a program that follows this program called Off the Hook Overtime. 
It starts at 8 o'clock. 
It's on our YouTube channel, Channel 2600. 
You can catch the link on the top of the 2600.com page. 
We got a notice a few weeks ago. 
It was addressed to Channel 2600 from YouTube, owned by Google. 
And it said, Hi, Channel 2600. 
Our team has reviewed your content, and unfortunately, we think it violates our misinformation policy. 
We've removed the following content from YouTube, and it was our entire overtime show for September 28th. 
They continue, We know that this might be disappointing, but it's important to us that YouTube is a safe place for all. 
If content breaks our rules, we remove it. 
If you think we've made a mistake, you can appeal, and we'll take another look. 
Keep reading for more details. 
Now, under How Your Content Violated the Policy, this is what they say, Content that advances false claims that widespread fraud, errors, or glitches change the outcome of the U.S. 2020 presidential election is not allowed on YouTube. 
In addition to that, yeah, how surprised is anybody to hear us accused of that? 
In addition, we basically were told that there was a strike against our account, and that further such behavior would result in our channel being permanently shut down. 
Yes, the channel that hosts all the content for every whole conference would be shut down because Google, for some reason, thinks that we were spreading election lies. 
Now, Google would not elaborate on what precisely they were accusing us of. 
As you may know, we've been outspoken defenders of the 2020 presidential election, so to be accused of the exact opposite was a bit of a shock. 
We were given the opportunity to review the content, but they didn't tell us what the actual problem was. 
They just pointed to the entire 60-minute episode. 
Well, we did a bit of listening, and we figured it out. 
I'm going to play you a minute excerpt here and see just what it was that triggered Google. 
Listen. 
Whatever we have at the time and our takes on it, we're certainly not experts. 
We're relying on one another's perspectives to inform overall consensus or maybe what priorities are in light of whatever the stories are. 
So, I don't know. 
We do as much as we can, and we want to give people an opportunity to talk, too. 
And, you know, sometimes our minds change. 
Sometimes we're convinced. 
Sometimes we find out that, hey, I'm wrong. 
I wasn't informed completely. 
Now I am, and I've changed my perspective. 
Yeah, and you get more information over time, too. 
Things have a different appearance over time. 
That election was stolen. 
It was. 
And let me tell you why. 
I'll tell you that as soon as I tell you why all vaccinations are bad. 
No, I'm kidding. 
I'm kidding. 
You know, we can joke, right? 
We can, right? 
Yes. 
Okay, thank you. 
Yeah, from time to time, it's allowed. 
No, no, no, no. 
It's not allowed. 
It's no longer allowed in the world of YouTube. 
Yeah, so I made a little joke. 
I made a little joke saying, hey, guess what? 
The election was stolen, pretending to be an election denier. 
And that got Google to ban our channel, to shut us down. 
That's just, it's unbelievable that that actually happened. 
So, we filed an immediate appeal. 
All kinds of listeners were weighing in on this one. 
And within an hour, we got a message back saying, after taking another look, we can confirm that your content does not violate our community guidelines. 
You think? 
Wow. 
But they didn't answer any of our questions. 
How did this happen in the first place? 
Was this an automated process or somebody who had no sense of humor whatsoever? 
What guidelines are they utilizing? 
You know, we support restrictions on hate speech and all kinds of blatantly false information that's designed to mislead the public. 
But we've mentioned that we stood up for our democratic elections. 
We've sided with science over superstition. 
And we also believe a company can make whatever decisions they want as far as their own systems go, provided they're not discriminating against people based on race, religion, sexual identity. 
But what Google did here was well over the line. 
Even if they do legally have the right to shut out people, they consider to be spreading lies because this time they went after sarcasm. 
Whether through artificial intelligence or humorless human, such behavior is certain to have a chilling effect on free speech of all sorts. 
Now, people have been sending us all kinds of hints as to phrases we should avoid and methods of expressing opinions that won't cross the line and get us kicked off of YouTube again. 
And we're grateful. 
We thank them for this. 
But we're going to continue to use sarcasm whenever we deem it damn necessary. 
And we do it quite a lot. 
A lot, a lot. 
And we're going to continue to talk to people with differing opinions. 
If someone were to call into our podcast later on and express alternate thinking on anything from elections to vaccines, we would engage them in some form of conversation, attempt to get them to reconsider. 
That's our call. 
Not Google's, not Facebook's, not Twitter's. 
We're not going to be intimidated into avoiding the conversation altogether, lest Google somehow takes offense. 
And you can count on us doing this a whole lot more in the future, because that's how it works. 
When you tell hackers they can't do something, they do it 10 more times. 
Boy, that annoyed me. 
That really, it's just to wake up at three o'clock and see that your channel has been shut down. 
It's just, it's so wrong. 
Guys. 
We're testing the limits here. 
And there's probably phase one of testing the limits, which is to play back what got you booted in the first place and see what happens when the WBAI episode goes up live on YouTube. 
Let me tell you right now, well, this doesn't go on YouTube, but Overtime, which follows immediately, goes on YouTube. 
And that is how we're going to start the show. 
So if you want to see a kerfuffle, folks, join us over on YouTube in a few minutes, eight o'clock, channel 2600. 
Follow the link on 2600.com. 
We will continue this conversation over there in just a few minutes. 
Please write to us, O-T-H at 2600.com. 
And we will see you again soon. 
We hopefully will be here next week, maybe in two weeks, maybe in three weeks. 


And welcome everybody to YouTube where we are joining you now for overtime Emmanuel over here Kyle. 
Did you make it? 
Okay. 
Oh indeed. 
I'm here. 
I'm ready. 
All right, and Let's see if Skype land has worked Mitch. 
I see you. 
I see the cat you both there We're both here. 
It's funny. 
The cat was sitting on the chair as if the cat was part of the broadcast It was a really incredible now Greg. 
I you've migrated from the phone over to Skype Indeed. 
I'm watching my ping time go down and down as the evening progresses here You've gone and we'll see if Skype works. 
So we'll see if it works out the reason that was necessary Yeah, that was necessary because we want to be able to take phone calls And if you're on the phone, obviously, that's that's a bit of a challenge But before we we get started or continue the conversation I just wanted to play something for the benefit of YouTube that election was stolen It was and let me tell you why I'll tell you that as soon as I tell you why all vaccinations are bad No, I'm kidding. 
I'm kidding. 
You know, we can we can joke right we can right Can we let's find out? 
Let's see. 
Let's see what happens if we Maybe play this a few times But it still pisses me off that they did that that they they forced us to jump through hoops and waste our time because they Don't understand sarcasm. 
Well now hear me out Would you be more upset if something really abhorrent was said and it wasn't flagged or recognized? 
Like are you that I said, are you upset that it's overbearing or would you be more upset if it was? 
Looser and and like crazy stuff wasn't getting you know Little love letters like that look if we if we had one of those conspiracy podcasts, right and we were we were just spreading all kinds of misinformation and lies and things like that and you know expect some kind of backlash for that, but That's not what we were doing. 
They don't have a sarcasm algorithm. 
No, we're literally talking about disagreeing That was what the conversation was about. 
It's about you know, how we disagree and and and just as a joke I disagreed a lot Let's just show how crazy it can get but we can handle it Google We don't we don't need a paternalistic Overlord to tell us how to behave now if you find people that are actively out to spread lies And that is what they do. 
Yeah take action against those people but let us have our conversations and like I said on the radio show if somebody calls us and has a different view and You know a view that we might have a problem with I don't want you to cut it off Let us deal with it. 
Let us have the conversation Work on your network. 
Look man. 
I'm taking it I'm taking it as a compliment that our natural language is crazy natural It's just you can't you can't keep up with it. 
No. 
No, you can't Greg. 
Go ahead Well, I know there's different theories, but but I'm absolutely of the opinion that this is simply pattern matching and there's no way And this is what we saw with mr. 
Robot at the hope conference, there's really no way of accounting for Sarcasm when you're simply looking for strings in your speech-to-text algorithm along the lines of the election is stolen or He said it. 
He said Yep Jehovah Jehovah, I heard that too. 
Oh My god, yeah, it's so okay. 
So if he can't deal with sarcasm, then that's not how to to monitor speech You know The whole nuance which protects the First Amendment and and balances fair use I mean in the u.s There's a huge law about this and it's absolutely Inconsistent with the idea of pattern matching. 
I mean, it's all about the nuance and all about the intentions behind the words Mm-hmm Mitch and you know, I know in Germany things are a little bit different as far as speech Is there anything you can point to that that would stand out for us here in America? 
You know, it is really interesting that when I first started visiting Berlin for chaos Congress in 2006. 
I was really surprised to find out that Germany does not have freedom of speech And there's some pretty good Reasons for that too that are interesting and there's no like real right and wrong Certainly people's rights are limited by other rights and they come into conflict here there were a bunch of people a few decades ago that were espousing lies and hatred and It became a populist kind of a thing kind of like we're experiencing somewhat recently in our dear land and And that took over and they don't want to have a repeat of that. 
So how do you stop that? 
What's an effective way to stop that while still giving people? 
enough rights to live lives that they find way worth living and there's no really good answer for all of that and and You know and similarly what we're experiencing now with so-called social media There's billions of accounts on there many of them bots but many of them actual human beings with very different points of view and some people are just going out to try to get as popular as pop as possible and Playing off this populism thing. 
How can how can it how can these companies? 
Possibly limit that without impinging on the rights of others accidentally or purposefully, you know and here we have Someone who I love to hate Elon Musk claiming that he's gonna take Twitter and make it a free speech haven I hate to see what that's gonna come to and our Actual friend aesthetics wants to see Twitter go out of business as a result of all of that and that might actually happen Wow Yeah, we're witnessing a lot of things here. 
Definitely and somehow we keep getting dragged into it Yeah, well as Hackers as you point out we're always pushing limits and so it makes sense that we're gonna be the people who sort of have to pay the Deal with some consequences earlier than others that election was stolen. 
It was oh That's gonna be our new theme. 
It really is. 
I'm gonna keep saying that over and over again What else can I say vaccinations are bad? 
Everything is evil The government is not your friend Don't push us. 
Well, we'll say all the things you don't want us to save if you overdo it I Think especially Go ahead Greg That hates hate speech is is is going to be more protected then then then then like a legitimate Even intellectual debate over something like vaccination for example So yeah, we're I mean the thing related to what Mitch was saying is we're in an attention economy I mean and you could trace all this back well beyond someone like Hitler in Germany But Nowadays people get news coverage. 
They get tik-tok coverage, you know, they get retweeted Whatever it is when they say something that's over-the-top and absurd and maybe false and then you know Maybe eventually they end up in front of a court or something and then they can't say that anymore and we see this all the time in the in the US midterm elections where where The absurd over-the-top statement gets to the headlines and And the debate never almost never even gets a chance to to occur and I don't know what to do about the the the well, I guess what I was saying before the role of Automated, you know censorship basically, you know, but automated pattern matching Some I mean, I think maybe there's a role for that, but it doesn't do anything about the extreme Attention-getting that you know that bypasses all that stuff and uses Subtlety and and maybe maybe more subtle sarcasm than than what we're hearing here Yeah, and also it makes martyrs of the wrong people and that's something really to be concerned with. 
So There's pointers. 
There's all kinds of advice we can't we can offer We've been dealing with this kind of crap for a long time with you know, BBS isn't IRC and all that So maybe Google's somewhat new to the game, but there's there's ways of Controlling the quality of content and ways not to do that And I think we're seeing some some demonstrations and you know Just on the subject you're talking about the hate speech hate speech is not something we engage with I mean somebody called up and had all kinds of hate speech to share No, we wouldn't continue that conversation. 
Absolutely not. 
But somebody is woefully misled on a Topic on something going on in the news We have every right to have that conversation and we resent greatly being told that we can't talk about that So that's that's the line for us. 
We have a call. 
We didn't get off the phone number yet So, you know, it's got to be rebel, right? 
8 0 2 3 2 1 4 2 2 5 but right now the the line is occupied So, let's see who's out there. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the hook over time Well, it's not rebel, but it's Phil from Virginia Phil from Virginia, okay, well now you're the new rebel I guess Yeah Well, it's been a while What's happened? 
We sucker-punched a nastroid. 
That's true We uh, I mean, I think it's just amazing that we were able were able to meet manipulate still object now Did you hear about the scientists that? 
had Human brain cells in a Petri dish claim Kong. 
I Did not hear that Kyle you heard about this. 
Yes. 
What what tell us what's it? 
Going call you tell us Well, okay, they were experiment with brain cells and they cultivate some brain cells into a Petri dish and taught it to play pong Okay, I'm both amazed and freaked out and scared Yes, because Okay, is that a human being now? 
Right because it's human brain cells, right? 
Well the ability to play pong. 
Is that how you measure what's human and what's not? 
I Don't know Petri dish why is human now? 
I'm pretty sure Mitch's cat can play pong. 
So that doesn't that doesn't make it human. 
Oh You know, I Don't know you got these you got these thinking abortion people what would they think about it? 
Okay, let's confuse them. 
That's a good idea Only if you lose the game, but you know, is that biological way I or I just I just want to get into the mind of this guy's like, you know what? 
I'm gonna go with a Petri dish and this was the goal. 
Was this the goal or was it an accident? 
Something they're playing around with But but can you imagine your cell phone having a human neural network? 
What if it develops schizophrenia? 
I Wish my cell phone had pong now that I think about it. 
That is interesting that if you're using biological based Processors and if they have like a mental breakdown you have true like panic in your system because it's it's Having a rough day or something If you were to put this thing Like make a space probe with the right Have some way for to have like a nutrient bath or something like that. 
Thank you for lobbying Huh? 
What's it keep the space probe from going friggin nuts? 
That's something to worry about only Mitch you had something go ahead Mitch let me there we go. 
It took a while for first Skype to unmute me. 
I just looked up and there's an NPR story Saying that about 800,000 cells linked to a computer Gradually learned to sense the position of the pong games electronic ball and control a virtual paddle Wow, and that's in the journal neuron So evidently this actually happened and it was intentional to use this actual neurons as the neural network To learn to play this simple game and what happens when they learn how to play Grand Theft Auto? 
Forget Terminator, it's gonna be worse Greg. 
Go ahead Maybe not too surprising about this is And it's that you barely even need a neural network is this is you know, basically operant and a petitive conditioning You know, this is the type of thing that bacteria can learn and you know nematodes which only have a few hundred Neurons and things like this. 
So so, you know if you think of pong in terms of Going to the gym or going to the gym, you know, it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's If you think of pong in terms of Going towards reward and away from punishment or you know combination of both I'd say it's not not really too surprising You can you can this is something that is a really very very basic Game, uh grand theft auto would be would be indeed a little more interesting or or you know, even chess or checkers or something like that Self-driving cars with human neurons There's christine right there, right well, let's check in in 20 years i'm sure we'll be further along Go ahead greg, uh, I do have an idea Which is maybe we put these, uh, this petri dish full of neurons in charge of censorship on youtube Maybe that's part of the answer Yeah, maybe it's already that could be why it happened. 
Absolutely Well, uh carl, right anything else going on down there in virginia? 
Uh, let's see while i'm working on the parade stuff. 
Um, I got like the 501st You ever heard of the 501st? 
stormtroopers I don't think so Their charity that like just look like stormtroopers for the halloween thing. 
They might show up. 
I got like a guy called stuff West virginia batman Who's got like an actual batmobile? 
Uh, like the 89 batmobile Um, and this is all for a halloween. 
Yeah, there's a halloween parade you're organizing Yeah, awesome. 
Yeah. 
Wow Yeah, and I got my astronomy club I got a room for it the first meeting's like on november 19th I am getting Have you heard of skype with scientists? 
No Okay. 
Well, it's where you can like use skype to talk to scientists and they'll like do little lectures or whatever with you or Do q and a's so i'm trying to get a couple astronomers for that um to link into your club Yeah, great, that's a good idea And you you've you've done all this since we talked to you last organizing, uh astronomy club and i'm waiting on to hear from the animal shelter and I gotta call the community society here to see about getting a A tax code to get to pet smart to see if they will sponsor the pet parade thing Um, didn't this all start with you getting them to cut a branch? 
Yeah Amazing This this is inspirational. 
So I just showed up at the um at the um town meeting one night. 
Uh-huh and uh, you know just Did my did my thing and um It turns out our town is so broke that they're trying to use rent up an old bar To try to pay for a fire truck. 
So i'm just gonna like slide in well, why can't we just do a tax, you know? 
Make more sense, but it's Virginia Well, it sounds like it sounds like they're listening to you, which is awesome Yeah Um, I got the I got the permits I got to fill out the permits because I don't know how well this is going to go And I still got a year off for it. 
Like i'm i'm planning for june to be the pet parade thing And uh halloween around halloween for the halloween like a week before halloween It went so much as that email elvira Because I want to hear you like judge elvira looking like hunk. 
Okay But yeah, I mean, uh um i'm just trying to keep from going crazy in my little apartment, but Also, um, did you have you been watching the dale brooks case? 
the witch case Dale brooks No, I don't think so. 
I ran into the parade Okay, I didn't know the name I didn't want to know the name but uh, uh, I heard about it. 
Yes He is a sovereign citizen, which means just like those ranchers southwest a while back Then the government can't tell us what to do because we declare ourselves Independent from the government blah blah blah. 
So he's there renting a raven And i'm not making himself look pretty look any good. 
But yesterday A a person went on to reddit And claiming to be a juror from a from the trial And almost led to a mistrial They had an investigation so forth and later on it turned out to be a prank but you know, um Like I was watching one of your youtube. 
Um Lawyers talk about it and they're like well, you know That's why we can't have nice things because when you do things publicly like it's like publicly live stream like Trials you're going to get people like this and it can lead to a mistrial I guess well while you think about that, I mean Well, it's not going to be a mistrial if the person's just lying and isn't an actual juror You know people do that all the time If they were to you know Well say the judge like say okay. 
Well, you know, we can't risk this And I know the juror said he didn't do it. 
But still You know, we're going to have to get a new jury and this trial got to start over, right? 
Well, that'd be a pretty dim way to judge if they had no evidence and was simply relying on somebody posting to reddit saying They were on the jury Yeah, you need actual evidence It just shows how how something we do How we we we can make a little Little just a little joke like you were talking about earlier like being sarcastic and stuff like that We can make a little joke and all of a sudden they can be blown up out of proportion into something that wasn't meant to be Well, I mean if if it's a juror making a joke, that is a big deal If it's if it's somebody who's not related to the case in any way, then it's it's completely irrelevant Yeah, I don't know if I don't know if the person could be charged with anything um Who did it? 
Well, it depends if they're just lying on reddit I don't think that's a crime if it is a juror in fact messing up the whole case and there's probably some kind of penalty for that Yeah But I from what you told me I I assume it's not a juror. 
So I didn't get to talk to you about the alex jones thing. 
Um, so what's your take on that about what now? 
Alex jones and the almost billion dollars. 
It's gonna pay out Uh, the info wars settlement, oh alex jones Oh boy, uh, yeah. 
Well, you know Here's here's here's my thought on that. 
Um, you know, it's a hefty penalty, but uh, he's a pretty hefty uh idiot And and he caused so much pain so much anguish tortured people who were already victims And um, you know, I I don't expect him to cough up a billion dollars But I also don't expect him to ever get rich or to benefit in any way from any of this He should basically be living out his days now paying off those people that he basically tortured For no reason. 
I mean, why would someone do something like that? 
It's so disgusting You know and we we talk about we talk about sending messages to people for the crimes they commit Well, where's the message here? 
You know that that you can you can spread a whole lot of crap. 
That's completely false Uh make people who are already suffering suffer even more And and and become a celebrity become more of a celebrity benefits sell t-shirts. 
No No, if you do something like that, you're held accountable. 
All right, and um We have to treat each other better than this Yeah I felt very strongly about this. 
Uh, like people trading in uh what the hacking community is all about and then all of a sudden representing it profiting and misrepresenting it and and uh making it out to be something for their aims instead of uh, Something that is widely. 
Um Kind of self-directed and and understood as other people Understand that's just greed and and simple theft and this is this is beyond that this is no Innocent people and making money. 
I mean that was that was the big thing. 
He was trading in it So yeah, you can't get more. 
This is like stephen miller evil. 
You can't get more evil than this. 
He really can't yeah So, uh, you know, I applaud the verdict. 
I applaud the penalty and I just hope that something happens where you know He he he feels the pain Yeah, I mean it's it's i'm hoping to see them see the victims like actually take over the info war studio I hope to see the info war studio Be turned into something completely different, you know Where it doesn't pollute any airwaves or or uh anything anymore I mean this guy he was mocking he was mocking the um, uh, The people even after this was announced saying they're not going to get a penny that I think they're gonna get any money He doesn't get it. 
He doesn't get he needs to get it. 
There is no question about that greg You had something to say about this The specific thing, you know alex had been Deplatformed already and deplatformed again and we can just hope that he keeps getting deplatformed more and more So that he has no way of getting his wacky message out And uh, and that's there's some justice in that in addition to uh, you know, uh restitution But also being unable to continue and unfortunately, he didn't express a lot of regret and it sounds like he's going to be trying Uh to uh, you know to to keep keep on and I thought that was there's a broader. 
Uh, Topic there. 
I just saw a new york times, uh newsletter about the different platforms, you know in the context of musk buying twitter But also saying that all these uh, uh replacement platforms like parlay Um, they had something like 40 000 users per day versus facebook, which still has something like, you know, a billion and a half Users per day. 
So even these alternate platforms are having a lot of difficulty, uh thriving and surviving which To me is is probably okay. 
I mean, I mean, I like the idea of having small micro platforms You know We know all about that in the hacker community And and there's there's something to be said for that on the other hand if the platform exists Just like alex jones just to abuse just to profit from the pain of others then, you know, basically, you know, fuck them Yeah, because we're on youtube and we say that you can say that go ahead mitch and then kyle Yeah, well, um, I don't know if uh, how many people are aware of this there's a movie that came out like about 1980, uh, richard linkletter's first movie called slacker and It's an it's an interesting film if you've never seen it. 
Uh, I recommend checking it out There's not much of a plot It starts off at dawn and then goes from character to character to character and then back at dawn And the movie starts and ends with this total wacko in a van with a huge speaker on the top With a pa and he's saying all sorts of crap that um in 1980 He was and this is actually a a real character who existed in austin texas where the movie was made and our uh link later the filmmaker, uh lived and uh He was kind of like laughed at and he seemed harmless enough Uh, he was spouting all sorts of conspiracy weirdness And that was alex jones Oh, wow, and that was his platform back then was a Microphone with an amplifier and a speaker on a van and he just drove it around All day in austin texas and back then that was harmless people could laugh at him And he was kind of fun, uh in a weird way and he thrived on that kind of attention uh Fast forward a few decades to so-called social media and that same message repeated Finds that people have likes and this same guy Finds that he can magnify those kind of messages And get more and more extreme and more and more absurd really and get more and more attention And this is you know part of the problem with these so-called social network platforms uh, you know as greg said there's billions of people there and Uh, there's going to be a lot of different people using it for all sorts of different motivations I don't think there's any way to actually stop Uh it being used just to get attention for attention's sake and people profiting from that there's lots of attempts and i'm glad people are trying but Um, yeah, good luck with that Yeah, it's you can copy it. 
It's imitatable It lives on because there are recordings of it um and the the the sites the larger ones that this uh that we found uh propagated this Uh so well because that's how they were designed and are are run and and then of course as far as we can Uh presume we don't have a lot of insight. 
Although there's been um A lot of asking and a lot of questions around that But basically these smaller sites like parlor and and other ones like as greg was referencing are themselves Um isolated they don't interoperate as well as some of them I don't know if they're based on discord or any of the federated stuff there's there's a lot of cloning of systems and and so forth, but when you have a much larger system that casts that out over a broad pool of people who are Essentially all connected on this one service that is distinct from smaller services um that are kind of isolated because they don't they can maybe share links and and so forth depending on the type of service, but they are um Basically fragmented but still there um, so the effect is different maybe the the algorithms the the base of whatever platform it is doesn't operate essentially exactly the same way but um They're not going away and and when when they are, um Uh persisting in isolation We need insight about it. 
I think people need to know what is being said there uh, whether it's policed or not, but we also need to beware of like, uh, the ability of them to connect and and you know, what kinds of um, shape it's changing forms and and and moving around in constantly, um, because It's it's it seems to be uh an ideology and a behavior that um hasn't been resolved socially Yeah Oh, the the sad thing is is that it works it makes people money and that's how I get to charlie cooks and then fager university and in fox news and and You know like ben shapiro you get all those guys And it's because it works it makes the money And you know, the thing is it makes it makes them money makes them famous But for some reason that's not enough. 
They have to keep going for for the jugular. 
They have to like, you know, uh, Make people really hurt And and and be just complete jerks and and we have to we have to react when people do this It's like their opposing party now has like this like this hit list of What they want to do to everybody? 
Like now they're trying to block the uh, student loan thing um But I don't understand why we want to block a data from like not collecting on their debt. 
Is this making sense? 
I mean, it's them. 
Yeah their claim their claim, um, the um, the states that have like probably injunction to halt it Or stay it, um, their claim is that it's going to take tax money away from the states But the Republicans are anti-tax, right so Yeah, I guess you can trip them up on their own logic there um, I just wonder how somebody In a state, uh where your state is fighting to make sure that you don't get loan forgiveness Uh, how does that make you feel? 
You know where you do everything in your power to make sure those people don't get re-elected Yeah, I sure hope so. 
I know I know the people I know the people who support these guys are all in on it They're all for it and you you try to talk to them out and they'll get mad. 
Yeah, it's like hang up on you or whatever Yeah Um But it's like the I think it's just reality hitting them and they don't want to face it Like wait a minute. 
What? 
Wait a minute, I could have an electric car now, but i'll rather keep paying five dollars a gallon for cash and Yeah, it's what it's not Hey, listen, we're gonna open up the phones to some more people. 
It's great hearing from you though No, it's all about it. 
It's you you've you've done some amazing things down there and I hope uh to hear more Well, i'm hopeful at all. 
I mean It's a lot of hard work and uh-huh, but it feels it feels good Doesn't it? 
It feels good when you actually get a response It's only the beginning apparently charged by how far far ahead the job or whatever so hopefully we can figure that out uh, but you know, uh, I uh, also, you know, they have A charity group that's like a ghost special day I'll play ghosts if they go around doing stuff Yeah, you'll find all kinds of characters i'm sure yeah, well, uh, it's good talking to you guys, you know, likewise And uh, i'll catch you later. 
All right. 
Take care later on Wow 802-321-4225 is our telephone number Um, yeah, great hearing from uh from our callers. 
We haven't talked to in so long. 
It's been a while. 
Go ahead greg. 
Can I make it? 
A related pitch for a podcast. 
So, uh, you mentioned on the bai show, uh The power of the airwaves and and how wonderful it is that the the you know The radio station and we know that uh, mass media is still out there tv and radio There's a fantastic podcast called the flamethrowers. 
It's a cbc podcast And it uh includes the story that we just heard about alex jones And it focuses a lot on the career of rush limbaugh and how he essentially was a kingmaker to the tune of uh, Really being instrumental in getting donald trump in the in the white house But it also goes all the way back to some religious people and a lot of other things. 
Uh in the uh, 1930s afterwards so the flamethrowers Cbc podcast about power of the radio and basically how this stuff sells And that's all you need to know about why they keep doing it. 
It's because they can keep making Uh, you know being extreme and having extreme viewpoints regardless of uh of truth or or consequences Can I just say cbc does some of the best radio I have ever heard? 
We have a channel we have the serious xm crap Most of it is utter garbage, but the cbc radio one is is just so incredible last night I heard um a segment on their daily show as it happens. 
They were talking about 3.5 inch floppy drives And how there are there are places that still use them and uh just talking to people about this it's just so interesting I I've stayed in my car much longer than I need to from many occasions because something was on the radio That I had to hear the end of So, uh, that's that's the measure of good radio. 
I think and they really they really do it. 
Right? 
They really do We have another call Uh, yes, and I believe this uh might be from that part of the world That part of the world canada indeed are you from canada caller Uh, greetings kirby from etobicoke calling wow, you must be some kind of uh soothsayer, uh, kyle How did you know that that his caller was coming? 
So now we have two people, uh connected to us right now uh north of the border Well represented and and three people out of the country and we're the minority now kyle We're we're the only ones in in the united states safely. 
Yeah. 
Wow. 
So, uh kirby, how you been? 
I'm doing great greetings. 
Mitch. 
Um, kyle emmanuel and greg Yeah, we've all met in person now. 
So that's cool That is cool So what what's what's new up there in ontario losses happens losses happen tell us um last uh two days ago, we had a municipal election and Um for the first time in I don't know like 23 years or something. 
There's no ford In toronto. 
Wait, you mean they all um, you got rid of ford We didn't get rid of them. 
They all got jobs in the province No, but I mean he's no longer your uh, whatever it was that he was No, he's still that but we had a municipal election and it's the first time when he hasn't had that etobicoke north seat That um him and his family name have run for like 23 years because he got his um nephew a job um, you know In state level so to speak I see Okay. 
Well, I guess that's a good thing. 
That's a victory It is a victory and get this okay, so etobicoke central, um, we defeated we were the only um place in toronto that defeated the incumbent By 2 000 votes we got rid of that bum and we got somebody new and um 2 000 votes so everybody that voted really thinks that they made a difference. 
Yeah And and I hope people in this country realize that too They realize how much their vote matters and if you're listening to the sound of my voice Make sure you vote this year because boy, it's it's important if you've been watching anything on television Yes, listen to kirby here Nobody the thing was everybody was so not interested That it was up to the people that were interested and and that isn't like When you poll somebody you're supposed to be polling like what people are going to vote because those people are going to vote You know what? 
I mean? 
It's not like That's the opinion of the people if they decide to vote Correct. 
Yeah kind of thing. 
So I think that really when it comes down to it I think that's the bottom line these days is getting participation It's not so much what the percentages are. 
It's how can you get people out to vote? 
And it also has to be uh, relatively painless to vote in the first place whether you're voting absentee where you're voting early Whether you're voting locally or by mail Uh, it has to be something every state is different. 
Every province is different. 
You have to Explain it. 
You have to make sure people are aware and you got to follow up and remind people you know remind people to get out there and exercise their their civic duty because If you don't someone else will do it for you, and you probably won't like the results But like this is literally in um my part of um, toronto a thousand households You know change change the tide. 
That's incredible and it's pretty cool. 
Yeah. 
Yeah Yeah, yeah Wow, this this just happened when yesterday Uh two days ago was the election and um, it was quite a surprise like I mean we we hoped for the best but we didn't expect uh the um outcome to be uh It was it was close, but it the whole night like we kind of had a lead. 
So it was it was a fun night Boy, I want to I want to be able to say that yeah in two weeks I want to be able to say that boy, you know We were we were hopeful for the outcome, but we didn't expect it to be this good. 
I want to say that at least once Well, you know what people just have to care Yeah, take it really all it comes down. 
Mm-hmm. 
Totally totally Well, I know people care. 
It's just I I think people are convinced that they they don't matter And that really has to be changed, you know that you have people out there telling you uh, you know that don't even bother it's not going to make a difference or In in some cases even being threatening to them saying stay away from the polls or Making up rules that uh don't pertain to them. 
It's um, you know, it's something they have to get past greg. 
You had something Well people who don't vote are absolutely a major problem There's also reasons though why people don't vote. 
It's often not that convenient. 
It's on a work day uh, uh, there's issues we know all about gerrymandering and we know all about um, Uh voter suppression and pulling places not being open and long lines and all this sort of thing So it's unfortunately there is a there are real barriers to voting but apathy doesn't need to be a barrier like, you know If you care if you have an opinion then then why not? 
uh Make the effort to to go out and have your have your voice heard because it can make a difference And it's it's guaranteed to be easier than you think it is if you if you think there are barriers just Go to your state election website and and look up your particular situation if you're away at school If you're you're um bedridden Uh, if you know you want to vote early, um Where your local polling place is all sorts of things like that. 
Uh, go ahead mitch then greg Yeah, and even for us, uh refugees and immigrants living in other countries we can vote by mail and we can also vote by going to Um consulates and oh really I didn't know this. 
How do you vote? 
I do it by mail. 
Okay So they they mail you in germany I I have a friend. 
I kept my um address with a friend in the u.s. 
So my voting goes there Okay, uh now that i'm a um a resident of germany I probably should just stop doing that and then I can vote at the consulate Interesting, I didn't know you could do that Wow greg, go ahead Yeah, actually interesting the the for me. 
It's a somewhat of different experience. 
So mitch is uh, I think california residency, right? 
Uh, and for me, it's alaska. 
So as an alaska, so here's the thing Once you are a u.s. 
Citizen Whether you're born there become naturalized or something else You must pay taxes you must file with the irs every year on all income worldwide legal or illegal And because there once was a complaint about taxation without representation as I recall from some history books Uh, you do get to vote even if you're not in the u.s Uh, now you don't necessarily get to vote for like school board and local level elections I think that that depends probably on the local board and whatnot But uh, but I have been able to vote in the presidential elections for the senate and the house seats I even get to vote for judges back where uh, where my residency was And if at some point I move back to the u.s and take up residency somewhere else Then that would be where I vote but it does the implementation of voting Does vary state by state as we know? 
I mean that was like a really big deal in uh In the 2020 election and probably will be a big deal again in two weeks how different states do different voting In my case mitch, um Uh, I had to file I have to file paperwork every year to uh To say that i'm an absentee this year that in other words that i'm going to be either Uh out of the country on election day or one of the election days Or that i'm, uh, you're just permanently out of the country But every year I have to renew this and then uh, they email me a a ballot package And if I wanted to I could get it by postal mail, but they email me a ballot package and then I return it by either Uh fax or postal mail and it has to be postmarked in time And by the way, alaska is doing not instant runoff voting. 
They don't call it that they call it ranked choice voting Don't ask me what the difference is between the two, but they're doing a variation on uh, winner take all As of last year. 
Yeah, sarah palin doesn't like that Confuses her now kyle You have I think the best system because the state of washington finds you wherever you are and mails you like six times Don't exaggerate please but you're always voting. 
There's always some kind of an election stop Oh my gosh, it's true. 
No, it works the way it should it does i'm curious if what uh technology there is to uh, are there apps in various states to help people find polling places um, or to register or sign up or at least get reminders about deadlines because um, for some of these things some of these processes you do have to you have to arrange in advance or you have to Maintain correspondence make sure you're you're updated Um wherever you are, but for people that travel, uh for a living that are mobile and moving around um, there are a lot of accommodations and um, I encourage people just to find a way that works for them like have a friend or trusted um, a colleague help you out, um, Sort it out the way you can so so in my instance, uh, i've been absentee. 
My my whole state is Is absentee, um and and has been they switched over so there's no uh polling place to go to everyone votes by mail and um, so to that end, uh, i'm able to um, basically uh, I get a packet and then I keep up with um, some of the places that uh, um do some of the um, uh Reviews of the candidates so to speak you can say you can say who you look at because it's really awesome I think people should well, I i'm a big supporter of the stranger in seattle and they they do the secb Uh, the election control board don't live there. 
It's worth reading just for the commentary Well, it's hilarious. 
But uh beyond that king county elections and other counties in washington. 
They distribute a pamphlet So essentially you'll get a pamphlet from the county and there are statements from each candidate They write personal statements and they talk about their platforms So you use that as a guide and then newspaper endorsements, um or publications like I just mentioned they put out reviews they actually go and talk to people I encourage you, you know, find the a place you trust and um, uh get some of the opinions find out what was said in in some of those discussions and That can help you as you're going through and filling in Um your bubbles as it were but do it it's it's uh, it doesn't take long and if you have help if you have the guides or Um stuff to go through it really does not end up being a huge process I was going to mention that one of the things I voted on was whether um, there should be ranked choice, uh ballots that was one of the one it was put to the uh to the people so to speak and uh, I I um I was into it. 
Okay I won't say how I voted but so I think the three of you Kyle citizen of washington in new york mitch citizen of california in germany and and and greg citizen of alaska in yukon You all demonstrate how easy it is to actually vote in those situations And of course, it's easy when you're not in a different place Uh when you you know, you're pulling places in your community So there really are very few excuses that I can think of that should prevent somebody from voting You have all kinds of early voting possibilities you have absentee voting every state is different all the deadlines are different but The opportunity is certainly there Uh kirby anything else from you manuel may I yeah, go ahead Um, I think For me, there was a very low voter turnout in the provincial election and municipal election and everybody I talked to that I guess Didn't vote said oh I vote nothing ever changes Well, you know you're in canada Things are a bit more sane in canada. 
You don't have you know, the the women's right to choose you just had you just had the prime Minister, uh within the last week just basically comment that though, by the way, it's illegal to sell or buy or transfer Uh handguns, so they're Just like that, you know, I I so envy the way people live up there Well, I mean there is there is a lot more intricacies to that than meets the eye but I I will accept that as a You know, that's that's not a bad thing It's not gonna it's not gonna hurt. 
It's not gonna hurt anybody and if anybody has a problem with it, they can um, you know Raise their concern and say they have to have a gun for this reason or whatnot. 
I'm sure they can have it I'm amazed I think our our shock and really what? 
Stands out about that is just it's so far so quickly and no one's excited about it here, it's like you bring it up about having any kind of incremental study or Second look at a way we do one aspect of one type of one Part of one type of weapon. 
It's like Off-limits, it's like it's changing. 
It's not the same. 
I I don't think it's quite as excitable now. 
Um, uh because uh as Polarized as people want to make the issue. 
It's it's an issue that spans political party. 
It's not as black and white and really with all of the kinds of repeated attacks and and um tumult in american society, it's it's It's past time to to work on it as hard as it is for us But it's astonishing to see a place like canada just move so quickly Well, you know, there are people who are upset about it, but mostly they're in sparsely populated states Kind of like similar in the united states except in our particular case when people are upset in sparsely populated states Somehow they become the dominant voices somehow. 
They're the ones that we have to follow and you wind up with situations uh, you know where well texas not exactly a sparsely populated state, but This is the craziness of it mass shootings galore And their response is to make it so you don't even have to have a license to have a gun now that's that's the reality that we're living in so So yeah, you know When canada does something it's um, it's always a breath of fresh air. 
I contend. 
It's it's Excited folks that are that make that sound and seem more. 
Uh, uh, like a More of a reaction than it really is to most people in this country They're just very loud and passionate about it. 
Go ahead kirby Well, I was just going to say that uh, you know Uh up here people find other weapons and do this with each other with so of course There's always going to be another weapon. 
It's not going to stop violence Yeah, I mean there's going to be violence. 
Absolutely, but uh, you don't have to make it so damn easy, you know Or or your political opponents. 
I'm, sorry. 
Go ahead kirby what? 
Oh, I just thought it's you know, like so damn easy. 
So, uh, yeah It's not only can you kill somebody or shoot somebody or maim somebody anybody that just kind of finds it can It's it's one of the things that Um, it's just such a game changer in the hands of almost anybody Well the the mass shooting that happened beyond the the the mass shooting at a school in st Louis, uh, which was a couple of days ago. 
Yeah, uh that particular case The the person, um, uh who did this Was suspected of having mental issues. 
There was a gun in the house They called the cops to get the gun out of the house The gun was taken out of the house Given to somebody who was a relative and the guy went and got the gun from the relative. 
These things don't work You know guns are the problem They are the issue and and there's too damn many of them and they're too easy to get your hands on Too easy to get your hands on and in this particular case, I don't even know if a law was broken I don't think that was this is how the system is designed to operate and it's just It's it's it's so ridiculously stupid and we don't seem to ever learn. 
So congrats on learning. 
Um, Canadian fun fact. 
Yeah. 
Um, I went to I went to school with the um federal minister that declared the Guns are banned Okay, that's that's something Yeah, no, it's just yeah, I went to grade school grade school with the guy and uh Now he's the federal minister of public safety. 
So I went to school with kevin james Well, not at the same time, yeah, well he he lived in my neighborhood Yeah, I didn't know that until a long time afterwards. 
But yeah Um, I mean, why would I know it then because he wasn't he wasn't famous then? 
Oh, well you went yeah, uh, go ahead greg and then we're gonna move on to another call Yeah, just very briefly, uh, uh The role of money in politics in canada is much less role of money in politics in the u.s And that i'd say that's probably the single biggest Uh cause of some of these differences And also I went to school with anthony scarabucci Okay. 
All right. 
So mitch, who did you go to school with? 
Fred Fred Just fred Yeah, okay Uh, kyle, anybody you want to name? 
No I went to school some cool people. 
Yeah, i'm sure you did. 
They're all really cool fascinating academic career, but they're not like People I would drop, you know that Anyone would know necessarily I that I could think of and you know, maybe you need to check in Maybe they've gone on to great things. 
I'm afraid to uh for about half of them And some of them may have gone on to do horrible things they've gone on i'm sure i'm sure a lot of them have Good on them. 
I'm here doing this frank here. 
Uh, kyle is the most famous person ever to come out of his school It's just the way it is. 
I didn't say that i'm not and i'm i'm just saying i'm here doing this and i'm just as happy To be you know around still thing about somebody went to school with jeffrey dahmer, you know, so there's there's that Yeah, I wonder if yeah Yeah, some some names you just you're like, yeah, I don't want to I don't want to talk about I don't know how we got into this. 
How did we get into this particular subject? 
kirby great hearing from you and um, um, hopefully we'll hear from you again next time we're on the air whenever that is Okay, uh quick shout out go ahead uh, um, uh audrey She's been doing great, uh with her math and science and french And keep up the good work. 
Awesome. 
Congrats audrey All right, we'll talk to you again soon and take care everybody. 
I hope you have a yeah good time. 
All right be well You know next time we're on the air. 
It might be it might be after uh, uh election. 
Was that the delay that you had greg? 
You said by kirby about 10 seconds after he left leave his delay. 
I'm telling you i'm watching the ping The thing is just getting longer and longer. 
Okay, we got we got to do an experiment but um, uh, Next time we're on the air. 
We might be it might be after election day. 
So This might be the last time we sound so chipper give that phone number out again Oh, wait, I want I want to see how long greg's delay is. 
So greg i'm going to count down Uh from from three and I want you to say one the same time you think i'm going to say one. 
How does that sound? 
Okay, here we go three two one One wow, that is a delay. 
That is a delay one second. 
Huh? 
How about you mitch? 
Okay, let's let's try you ready? 
All right three two One one much better in germany. 
All right, kyle. 
How about you? 
What you're in the same room, but there's still a delay All right We take this phone call. 
Yeah, what? 
Are you smoking? 
No, no, there's no smoking in this. 
No, i'm engineering been over this No, I was uh, I was I tried to pick up this call and I think I got it this time There was another call. 
There's a second time. 
They tried they'll pick up two calls at once. 
Actually. 
This may not be them No, this might be them. 
Try this. 
I'm gonna try this. 
All right, uh, Good evening. 
You're on off the hook overtime Good evening gang. 
This is tim in connecticut tim in connecticut. 
How you been? 
Not too bad. 
Not too bad. 
Hey, I was just to get in on the voting thing I think australia has the right idea with mandatory voting. 
Oh, yeah They say that they consistently get between 90 and 95 percent Of people of a turnout because they issue fines if you don't vote You know who would argue against that? 
Yeah, what's your reason for arguing against that because you can always you can always vote for uh, you know None of the above you can always say that you can voice that opinion if that's what you believe But just not participating at all not having any voice who would be in favor of that? 
Yeah, I mean, I really don't see a problem with it. 
I mean, it's part of your you pay taxes, you know You want some representation? 
Yeah, absolutely Mitch did you have something to say on this? 
Yeah, just that there's several countries I hang out with belgians like I said on uh earlier on the on the radio show Uh, it's it's mandatory there too. 
And uh, I have friends in brazil It's mandatory there and even if you're out of the country like I have friends from brazil here From brazil here they go to the consulate Wow, I didn't know that Yeah, and and you pay a fine in these places as well It's a small fine, but still it encourages people to vote and many people they just turn in a blank ballot If they're totally not into it, but most people actually vote It's kind of like the census in a way, isn't it? 
Yeah, although Yeah census has there's some people that don't want the government to necessarily know where they are Yeah, but I mean as long as something can get to you somehow, uh, you know You have to pay your taxes. 
You have to be on a jury occasionally at least show up Uh, so they need a way of getting it doesn't have to be your actual home address But as long as they can get to you and they know that you're a different person than someone else then um, That should be sufficient Yeah Well, that was my input for the evening i'll get off the line and let you get take another call Okay. 
Well good hearing from you Have a good one guys. 
Take care Wow mandatory voting kind of like that idea and you know for something like that you have to make it easy for people to vote So, you know, it seems like a win-win And you have to have the systems in place. 
Yeah, you're gonna fool around with all this We got this type or it's not working this way, you know, there's an expectation you're requiring people to show up You gotta have stuff work. 
We can't even get past the uh, tuesday election day thing Which is all based on farmers, you know with their crops and you know, it's it's it's fall So it takes them this long to leave on a on a weekend to get to the polling place So that's why it's on a tuesday the first tuesday in in november Uh, it's just so silly. 
Why can't we have it on a sunday like the rest of the world? 
You know, at least we have early voting in many places where people can do things like that Do we have another call? 
All right, and good evening. 
You're on off the hook Can yeah, it's it's rebel doesn't let me even finish the sentence. 
I'm going to do the greeting rebel All right. 
Let me do the greeting. 
Okay. 
Good evening and welcome to off the hook overtime You are now on the air caller. 
Please address us in a pleasant tone of voice Yes, even though we're not on the air. 
We're online. 
We're on the virtual air air-coated air Anyway, um By the way, uh, the election is november First this year. 
No, it's not How dare you lie? 
It's not november 1st. 
It's november 8th. 
That's missing. 
Yeah. 
Oh, it's november 8th Wow misinformation you're gonna get google to ban us again alphabet is gonna I mean, come on Overtime. 
Yeah, well speaking of misinformation It was you tell you're talking about uh, um the info wars thing, uh, the I think their ads are pulling out of the the Their their appetizers are uh ban are boycotting Yeah, I wonder what concerned them Well, I mean, well the teachers at that school in connecticut they you know, they I remember on a news report They said that it was like pearl harbor It was like pearl harbor No, that's what a teacher that's what the teachers say that that that I'm saying. 
Oh, yeah, of course Yeah, i've heard awful stuff too But it's interesting That's a step in in that it took Them that long. 
I mean for for those advertisers in particular, they're not probably Um ones everybody's familiar with but that they have stuck with him so long and then They're finally, uh abandoning His brand as it were That is something it's interesting though that it took what and this actual action for them to say Okay, this is enough. 
Like it's not that big of them Let's say what else um, wow rebel you ran out of things to say quickly this week Um, you know, um There are um, I I think it should be I think we'll make her a good uh, either movie or Private film or or video or whatever, you know, like when a stranger calls, you know, that's a I think that was a movie in the 70s It was I think it was in the 50s, but maybe it was the 70s. 
I don't know But i've heard the movie but they shouldn't we should have a home movie called when a scammer called oh I like this Yeah I think we should do that Okay, let's do that when it's chemical Um, if you want to go to my uh, youtube page of richard conti And of you, you know, I call scammers. 
I haven't been doing it lately But um, you know, I get a lot of calls and they come from 800 numbers and you know 917 numbers and and numbers that are like, you know uh, either not existent or whatever that they keep numbers, I I guess Maybe then they like the college, uh, since the college, uh tuition, um, the college loan Um forgiveness was announced I've been getting a lot of even though I don't have any college loans or grants or anything I gotta get calls from these places that say, you know, would you like to um? 
Oh, you know what? 
I could uh, I could three-way you maybe no, don't do that. 
There's uh, there's no call for that Uh, all you have to do is not pick up the damn phone Just pick up Well, no I do and I just you know, kind of like, you know, like play with them saying hello, this is the operator I have a collect call So he's making a study of it. 
So he because he has this abundance. 
He's turning it into something he can refine into An assessment of these types of colors. 
That's a great idea For more for your research just give out your phone number and i'm sure people can sign you up for all kinds of things Wait, right. 
Is that what he wants? 
He's more to the incidental ones. 
Uh-huh Well, we can probably give out his number because I'm sure we have it somewhere You know because if you if you call it then then you know, it's going to go to like, uh, um, you know This the number you would be is not in service Yeah, but we're not fooled by that Now by the way, uh when a stranger calls, uh, you were right 1979 And uh, here's the synopsis during an evening of babysitting high school student Jill johnson is terrorized by a caller who keeps asking have you checked the children lately? 
And when she calls the police they inform her that the calls are coming from Come on, say it Oh for god's sake rebel really inside the house inside the house. 
Thank you Come on, it's one of the most famous things ever to say the calls are coming from There's a lot from this film that I didn't realize that's where that phrase comes from The calls are coming from inside the house and also have you checked the children lately? 
Which I never heard before that film came out But that's not a stranger then if it's coming from inside the house, well, it could be a stranger inside your house I mean, what would you call a person who broke in and you don't know? 
I guess an intruder I guess. 
I don't know but when an intruder calls like but they're It doesn't make that's a silly title. 
I mean, come on. 
I'm a straight first of all Now the point is you don't know they're in the house. 
So they're a stranger from the outset Okay, then you find out that the stranger is an intruder. 
Okay, I guess you could rename the film at that point But who does that? 
Really rebel some of the things you suggest. 
I just don't know. 
Um, what? 
What um, what um when I remember I remember back in the 70s That I would used to make a prank call to this person this one woman that um And uh, she would keep me on the line like saying hey, I'll um, you know, I was home alone at the time Uh, it was like maybe 10 years old. 
Uh, she said well, um, uh, are your parents away or where did they go? 
Did your mother go shopping or you know trying to make conversation with me? 
You know i'm on the phone with her for like three minutes I hang up we have two lines one line Which is where I called from which is the phone on the desk, right? 
And then there's another phone in the kitchen that has another line Total took a lunch she called on the kitchen phone, which it took which is a totally separate line And then she said this is a police station um Richard is making prank calls Are you ever going to call mrs. 
Klausner again? 
I remember I got so scared at that point. 
How did you know my name? 
Because she knew who you were I don't know how she knew who you were But it's obvious she knew who you were. 
She knew your other phone numbers She knew your first name and she knew that you were the person who would do this I think we all know that the genesis of rebel has this been something that's been hanging over your head since you were 10 years old Actually It has it has like extremely like how do they like three minute bernie s would know something like this? 
Rebel if you called me, all right, and I heard your voice I would know it was you no matter what number you use But they knew you they your your reputation precedes itself people know you all right, even at 10 people knew you The entire neighborhood People probably exchange all kinds of notes on you back then because this person I found in the phone book That's how I hit my prank prank calls the person I picked in the phone book who had the same last name as well a friend of mine's name so Maybe she called my friend. 
I don't know. 
I don't know. 
What what what year was this? 
1978 or 79. 
Okay, so it's pre-caller id so they didn't have caller id right Well, you know It was where you had it Stay on the line like keep the person on the line for at least three minutes in order for it to trace or something I heard something like that I'm sure there's more to the story. 
Um Greg or or or mitch did either of you have something to add somebody's raising their hands Were they around in those? 
Go ahead greg Yeah Yeah, we were so so um I was going to comment on We've talked on the radio show before about how a lot of people don't want to respond to email Or use email about how a lot of people now don't pick up the phone and we're hearing about why it's like you don't know Who's there and the chances are pretty good that it's just crap Uh, and so you end up with platforms like facebook offering messenger where you're only getting messages from people that are on your contact list That's your settings and uh, and it's easy to understand, you know that uh, as someone that's uh, as someone that Considering that if I were younger and someone was saying, okay, we have all these ways to communicate We have email and cell phone and i'm like, well, that's just a bunch of crap that's coming my way that I don't want to even Even pick up the phone first is in 1978 when his phone rings Of course, you're going to pick it up because you know It could be someone you want to talk to and that's the only way you talk to them Um, so I do understand I think some of that rationale by the way i'm living now with um, 26 year old woman in the house We have someone that's staying with us to help out with the dogs And her method of communication is facebook messenger and when it's time to communicate about Shall we get together and take care of the dogs or something? 
My wife is sending her a facebook message from the first floor to the lower floor where the apartment is and that's that's the preferred Communication as opposed to even even wandering downstairs. 
What happened to bellowing down the stairs people don't do that anymore well That's what I would I would just bump bump on the floor, you know, and come on up. 
Uh-huh Absolutely, or get a cordless phone so that you could answer the phone on uh, you know, if you're upstairs Or get a radio shack intercom Radio shack intercom. 
I don't remember those. 
I didn't wear like Oh, yeah, absolutely radio shack intercoms. 
They were the best Well, that's the difference between phones and email and emails you could like ignore and delete phone calls just ring and you know Either pick it up or not pick it up or you could set up a pirate shortwave station And then have a shortwave radio downstairs so that you can transmit and the person can tune in and hear you Actually, I don't know why does it have to be shortwave? 
I guess it could be fm It doesn't have to be shortwave, but then anyone in the world could hear you as well. 
Go ahead mitch You had something I remember. 
I remember your name mitch. 
I don't think your name is mitch mitch speak. 
Go ahead mitch I just had something too silly to say with a radio shack intercom Which of course I had when I was a little kid and I had a bump Shared a bunk bed with my brother and I set up an intercom between the top bunk and the bottom bunk That's perfect, that's cool, but you're right there in the same bunk bed you really needed an intercom Well, we were both geeks, you know Well, this proves it for sure Wow, that's amazing the important thing is find a way uh-huh that that works and and it's so funny like the um, the idea that a phone call or a Uh message on a system that is public ostensibly, um Is suspicious is that's a new phenomena that that really um Unless it's a text that you understand or unless it's a a call you're anticipating because you scheduled it And arranged it in advance over some other form of communication it's a very odd way that um Something that was exceedingly that allowed you to be exceedingly accessible unlike the public telephone network um it then um It changes and transforms just in the basis of people suspecting that more often than not People using that mode are really just solicitors and it's it's sad in a way uh, and it I liken it to what I was talking about with um, uh speech and certain platforms allowing certain things and others not and then those Splintering off whereas you you'd sign up for a platform and everybody would be on there So you're accessible to people that you don't necessarily Uh talk to or agree with and now of course, uh as they fragment and splinter in the same way that you know, um Maybe it's not a suspicious call, but it's a political Uh confrontation that you don't want to be exposed to on this more or less well private uh community uh, we're experiencing similar things repeating I guess is the the short version of of what i'm noticing and um, And and it's it's odd that what people end up using is sort of Endlessly hybrid forms of all of it and sort of unifying it in their own ways Rebel, we're going to allow you one more comment then we're going to move on I remember when I was uh back maybe 1980 or or maybe 81 or something like that uh The pay phone in the shopping center where I usually you know, go right which is right near me where I live Uh would ring and it would ring it rang and I answered it and persons and hello you have won a prize and you know, they I think they're from a radio station and you've won a prize and oh what's your address to send your price? 
And I was stupid enough to get my address but nothing ever showed up or nothing You know, maybe they could maybe it was like a you know a scam of some sort What kind of scam was that you gave him your address and nothing happened? 
I don't believe anything happened. 
No And those are the days we could call a pay phone you can't do that anymore, it's just so weird these technology evolutions become Known for how they were abused more than the positive attributes of them and as we moved from like web 2.0 or whatever these uh, uh platforms are to even more intensely, um, uh, uh advanced systems What kinds of abuse will they be characterized or known for We haven't even thought of it yet. 
And uh, we're still trying to figure out the consequences of what what technologies we've Embraced and now are turning away from in many respects. 
It's fascinating always count on abuse being number one. 
It's weird It's like everything we look back on it's like, oh, how is that? 
Just completely upended for from its original intent and and and not not Taken seriously rebel good to hear from you as always. 
We look forward to next time. 
Okay. 
Take care And that was rebel, um mitch, I know it's very late where you are what time is it 3 11 in the morning. 
Oh, it's pretty late and greg where you are. 
What time is it? 
That's only 6 11 and uh pm and the dogs are being fed and and you might have heard, uh, our dog mod Barking in the background. 
She's still hungry. 
How is mod? 
She's doing remarkably. 
Well her brother, uh wayne, unfortunately, uh went over the rainbow bridge About two or three months ago. 
So he uh, he had some deterioration that was fairly rapid But mod is uh mod is getting on by she's uh, I think 14 or so years old now. 
She's 14 healthy good appetite has some did you say she had some liver problems? 
We have her on some meds. 
Uh-huh I mod's mod's my favorite of all your dogs. 
So some somehow I don't think of mod as a dog It's like she's a step above and she kind of handles things It's really cool. 
I uh, I also heard through the grapevine that you lost bear Yeah, yeah, so we've uh, we've actually uh had a few more dogs come into the house since uh, since we had our big uh, Get together a few years ago now and uh, but there is one of the ones that actually turned out He was born in new york. 
We didn't know that until a little bit later on And I had a couple other places. 
I don't think new york city, but new york state and uh lived a couple other places And we adopted it in alaska and then moved him from alaska to ontario and then uh to yukon But yeah, he was uh, he was pretty old. 
I knew it was uh, it was time For uh for old bear he was about 16 and that's uh for a pretty big breed like a husky That's about as old as they generally get to be uh, sometimes sometimes only uh, 13 or 14 Or typically 15 or 16, by the way, as long as it keeps coming up, you mentioned alaska I gotta recommend the new tv program that's on abc called alaska daily. 
You would like it greg. 
It's about a Uh a reporter moves to alaska to work on a newspaper. 
It's it's a lot of Um subject material about uh missing and murdered indigenous women, which is a big problem Uh in in that particular part of the world, uh, and it's it's it's really covering ground that you don't expect on network tv. 
So, um Check that out. 
I said it to all the listeners on thursdays, I believe Documentary or no. 
No, it's it's it's a one hour um a fictional piece prime time show and it's pretty pretty good scripted and uh dramatic and filmed in alaska For that wow, that's really cool type of show. 
It's pretty outstanding um where they've taken it and and they're treating the subject matter with uh, The kind of reverence I think it deserves a lot of good characters a lot of interesting people. 
Yeah, it's kind of fun alaska daily Uh, okay. 
So let's uh one more call Yeah, i'm ready. 
Uh 802 321-4225 uh, we will um, uh, wait for one more call if we don't get one more call, of course We will simply go our merry way without a call extra points for calls that um Talk about ways, uh to use technology to help get the vote out Yeah, sure. 
Are you do you have a favorite voting app you're using? 
Do you do you spread the word on on? 
different, um ideas for for Getting people signed and registered Um, thanks teacher kyle for making homework. 
Did you have an experience voting? 
Please rate your voting experience. 
I thought we were gonna get away without an assignment. 
This was the voting show Yeah, it certainly was Uh 802 321-4225 Is our phone number and of course if you've already called that it doesn't count if you call back So I feel I have to say that Um, and of course you can write to us at off the hook oth at 2600.com We'd love to hear from you. 
We do get letters from people and sometimes we read them on the air. 
Go ahead greg Um voting is an area where there's such a opportunity for technical solutions for teleconferencing based solutions and for Anti-fraud measures to be put in place and we've seen that some of the solutions are out there And it's just amazing and they're applied but unevenly because it's just amazing how little will there seems to be By the politicians and bureaucrats that make the rules to uh, to put some of these solutions in place And I wish so it ends up being if that's what's interesting about it is it's voting voting security voting access voting equity All these types of things are solutions Ready, and yet the will is not there The technology is there but the will is not there which is kind of the opposite A lot of times we're waiting for the technology, but in this case, there's so many great choices Absolutely and document, you know, if something is is going on at a polling place. 
It looks funny Take a picture, you know, you already you have uh all this uh technology, uh at your fingertips make sure you bring your phone, you know, and uh, and uh, maybe look up, uh ways to To report stuff that that you might think You know is definitely intimidation and we want to make sure people are safe and and out there. 
Um participating in the process so if if you're not using mail or some other technology and and stuff, uh, document what you see and um And uh share maybe we can make this stuff better. 
Mm-hmm. 
Yeah, but careful though. 
I mean we don't want confrontations Well, no somebody is uh being intimidating towards voters You definitely want to note that as simple a thing as a picture whatever i'm just saying There's existing technologies that we shouldn't forget about That they could really help in in these situations. 
Absolutely. 
We did not get a call not yet Okay, well give it one more minute and then after that one minute we're going to say good night. 
Mitch. 
Go ahead So, um Uh, we were talking about uh different kind of platforms platforms for people to communicate Um, this has been going on for a long long time There's always been people who communicate but preferably on one rather than another people who will only use irc if they're geeky People who will not use irc because they hate it. 
Uh, they'll only use email or whatever and now there's um, How many you know hundreds of different platforms and some of them more obscure than others There are people who only communicate on facebook and I have some of them. 
So I check my facebook once a day and um I was super busy today So I I was actually checking that before I got on with um all of you on skype for off the hook radio And I happened to have facebook Still open on my computer here and it dinged Uh, just as greg was talking and uh, we were talking about scams earlier, uh Arianne, this is from someone who I don't know and i'm not friends with uh in quotes, um Arianne, my girlfriend says she needs three hundred dollars and is in the middle of nowhere 20 hours from her hotel and was robbed and it's scary She has no recollection How can mitch how can we help Send three hundred dollars and we will repay you. 
Okay. 
Do they take credit cards? 
Because uh, you know, I want to send cash to the mail. 
That's stupid. 
I I don't want to be scammed Yeah, don't be stupid. 
No So i'll get my credit card number, uh, if you give me a phone number, uh to help arianne That sucks. 
I boy, you know, she should be more careful yeah, this is from uh, perhaps this is a real person and their their account was scammed but uh, Yeah, so anyways, um, uh, there's some interesting scams on um facebook lately over the last year I've gotten I haven't seen this before this year, but people will Take someone's account. 
They'll copy their um whatever they call their main picture, um their facebook picture and then they'll uh, contact all of their friends through facebook messenger saying um you should um Uh, well, first of all, I'll give you a friend request and and then they'll say. 
Oh, yeah my my account was hacked and then they'll say that they uh got a huge amount of money from a government agency and that you should Contact this particular person on facebook Because of course government agencies all use facebook to give away money. 
They're smart. 
Yeah Yeah, so that's happened to me several times hang on a second All right, so I take the face of somebody that's on facebook now, then I say that's me Uh, and I lost my account and if the person is continuing to say stuff, they're lying and they're they're scam artists But then I introduced this government agency that has all this money. 
So what do I do? 
Yeah Yeah, so so like you emmanuel have a facebook account, right? 
And and you've been on for you know years and years and you have your uh, facebook. 
Um, Profile photo right and so I come along and I like uh go well emmanuel has a lot of facebook friends So i'll take his account. 
I'll create a new one with your name and then add uh And do facebook friend request. 
I thought I was the scammer here. 
Now suddenly you're the scammer. 
Okay, fine You take the scale. 
I'm yeah, I want I want to I want to taste though You're a good guy and i'm a bad guy. 
So um, so I I created an account That looks exactly like yours except there's no Content because it's new and I get all of your friends to believe that your account was hacked and they should make me a friend And I am impersonating you and now I say yeah, you know, what's new with you? 
Oh, but for me what's new with me as I got a hundred thousand dollars from the government agency of blah blah blah And you should too you'd be checked into it. 
You should check it out Um, anyways, this is just a common scam going on now and then when they check into it what happens They just get their info. 
Uh, well i've i've followed When someone tries to scam me, I try to scam them back. 
Um, so I I go on there and i'm like so Yeah, well tell me about this and um, uh, so they give me the link to their Facebook friend who is this government agent who's going to give me a hundred thousand dollars if i'm eligible And then I report it to facebook and then about an hour later they're all gone You spoil all the fun mitch Party, I know i'm really no fun because I am a bad guy, you know We have a call our last call is here. 
Good evening. 
Welcome to off the hook overtime Greetings everybody. 
How you doing? 
Where are you calling from? 
I'm phoning from london. 
It's zap zap. 
How you doing? 
Hey, not bad It's uh pretty late over there, too Yeah, it's about two Coming up to 225 in the morning. 
Uh-huh. 
Uh-huh. 
So what's what's new over in the uk? 
Well, I know it's new Yet another prime minister my god Going through them like baseball. 
Yeah, we didn't vote. 
That's the reason why i'm phoning basically Uh, we've had about three prime ministers in the last two and a half months or something. 
Mm-hmm So, um, yeah, not even voting and we're getting new people Yeah, that's taken care of for you by the party it's that must be comforting And you got a king. 
Yeah, you got a you got a new king. 
It's been rough. 
I haven't talked to you I love how you guys went from the oldest or the longest reigning monarch to the shortest reigning prime minister Within a month that was incredible. 
Yeah, very short time, but I think canada has the same monarchy. 
So they've got it as well That's true greg, you're you're under under the king's realm, I believe We are yeah, in fact in my workplace we have something called the Queen's printer which is who does the printing and that's uh been renamed the king's printer So, uh things have to change but I wanted to comment about this parliamentary system because we heard from the earlier caller from canada about how uh Some of the fords didn't manage to uh, you know to place in the ontario or the toronto elections And the thing that's weird and we just heard two examples from england same system Is in the parliamentary system you vote for your local person your local member of parliament who goes to the federal system? 
Or your local member of the legislative assembly who goes to the provincial or territorial system? 
So very similar to like a state representative and a federal representative house or senate And then those people Are the ones who decide who's the leader of the party? 
And that person becomes the premier of ontario in the case of doug ford or the prime minister of canada in the case of justin trudeau or the prime minister of uh, You know england in the case of this, uh, this other rich guy um that uh that got elected so it's really fascinating to me that We don't have direct uh ability even vote for the people that are going to be your you know Equivalent to the governor or the equivalent to the president We're letting zap reply it's sinking in. 
Yeah. 
Okay. 
Just making sure You heard that okay good. 
Yeah. 
Yeah, it's similar here in germany. 
Is it similar in germany? 
Wow. 
Okay Cool anything else uh happening over there in uh in london? 
Yeah. 
How are you holding up? 
Not really Um, i'm sort of holding up best I can considering my circumstances, but the main reason i'm phoning Is I saw you sent out a message on twitter Asking for everyone to try and subscribe via amazon well, um Okay, there was something sent out by 2600, uh, encouraging people who have kindles Uh to subscribe to the magazine because it's it's super cheap. 
It's a monthly thing. 
It's under a dollar Uh, and it helps the magazine uh, because what we've been faced with, uh in in recent months and pretty much throughout the years is just Skyrocketing printing costs and especially after the pandemic or through the pandemic They just keep going up relentlessly and um, there's there's really no escape from that it's it's not something that you can uh, just um, uh, you know weigh something else to counteract it and and solve the problem so We think that um, uh, you know a strong digital reaction whether it's um through our pdfs We're still trying to get a subscription model going with the pdfs or uh with kindle editions, um That would help offset the the massive printing cost because keep in mind, you know, we just had a conference we had About half number of people that we wanted to have at the conference because of covid we we we kept that down Uh, so, uh, it's you know, we we have some lean times ahead It looks like at this point unless we figure out some some alternatives We want to be able to keep doing all the things that we love doing uh, but um These things affect us they they affect everybody but especially You know a printed magazine. 
Those are few and far between a printed magazine with no advertisements You know people will tell you it's impossible and uh, I don't want to agree with them I want to start saying yeah, they were right I think we can get through this but it just means We we we have to ask for support and we never want to just ask for support without giving something back So I just feel You know as many ways as you can figure out to support 2600 That'll keep us going I totally agree. 
I think it's worth every cent or every penny Unfortunately, you're gonna have to wait 28 days to get my money because i'm in a trial period Is there any other way that I can get you? 
More money by getting maybe buying some pdfs of the website, for example Well, we're going to be uh, you know, we're looking into this. 
It's it's just um, uh, it's been difficult finding the right solution for Uh pdf subscriptions where you can actually get the pdf version delivered to you automatically We hope to find that and have that solved. 
We're also going back And uh, and and making pdfs available of individual issues. 
We go back to 2019 now, I think So we're going to try opening that up as well. 
So there's a few things that we're going to be doing Yeah, I I just want to add to this that we are looking intensely at um specifically custom subscription management software it is a really kind of simple thing um in function, but it is a really Oversaturated market there's all of these different. 
Um Software as a service companies trying to to to get in on this need that um People have whatever they are selling whether it's a subscription for for um physical goods or uh in our case digital items and and um Publications and so forth. 
So we're really looking intensely at pretty much everything that's out there And a big part of there's a wide range of options as I said a big part of it is cost and scale and We want to make it custom so that it does what we want it to do We want it to deliver the way we want it to do. 
We want it to manage our subscribers in a very Let's just say controlled way um, you know, we care very uh much about who and how that's being handled and Suffice to say we're not going to be developing something custom ourselves. 
We'd like to um uh work with someone that is uh able to do Basically what we want without all the extra stuff and without basically robbing us Because a lot of them are set up to basically you just hand over all this all this control Um, and they charge you a lot just to get in Uh onboarded as they as they like to use in the language and then they gouge you. 
Um That's not fair, but it's it's uh also impractical for us to um to learn how to build widgets and and um develop this ourselves, uh because we're doing a lot in the way of Publishing the actual magazine and this is a common problem with publishers making the leap from physical to digital And we like as he said we'd like to keep printing. 
Yeah, so if we can straddle that in some way Uh, we we look at a lot of the different things that um other publications do and in terms of layout and engineering and stuff like that, but this this um Subscription management thing is something we are really keenly interested in So if anyone has suggestions on how to customize how to do this affordably how to scale it affordably We would love to get insight on on um ways that don't feel like you're dropped off Abandoned in a wilderness because that's a lot of where we're at now Everything and everybody is basically telling us printing doesn't make sense doesn't work. 
You know, it's it's expensive to print It's expensive to mail. 
The stores are going out of business. 
People don't go outside anymore And there's just something so special to me about something that you hold in your hand that is printed ink on paper And that's how we got started. 
That was uh, you know the romance that lured us in and that's not something I just you know want to give up on I think there is uh, there's plenty of future there But there's also future in other things as well that can help offset The investment we have to make to keep the print going So hopefully we can we can figure this out as a community. 
The community has always been super supportive So i'm just hoping that we find a way Yeah, getting better. 
The community is very supportive. 
It is very supportive Um, i've been spreading the word. 
I got a subscription. 
I don't even use kindle I know you can get an app, but i prefer the paper version So I do agree that your magazine in your hand physically is great Especially if you want to swap flies a lot cheaper than getting your tablet But yeah Yeah, that's the thing. 
It's a format that doesn't use batteries. 
It's uh, uh shareable in in many ways, uh, you can Bring it with you and and uh, yeah we're going to continue to do as much as we can to keep it, um in that form and and use as many of the Different options there are um, because this is not a unique problem necessarily, but we want to also enhance that um ability to Use it use the formats that people are Also using like tablets and so forth to just keep up with it and um Keep refreshing it with with stuff that's accessible. 
Like that's really what it's about is is it accessible? 
Is it convenient for people and those other management features that That integrate with our store and stuff like that is um, that's where it's at for us We want to make sure that that is top notch and as good as it can be um Retaining people and just keeping it. 
Um as as good as it can be and it's it's lagged behind We've not given it as much attention. 
We're definitely working on that right now and zap We want to thank you for your support. 
You've always been there for us You've always been this this voice of comfort in hard times at uh, and sanity as well So don't think that's not noticed Well, like you said the last time I phoned 2600 is like my family Um, we're very close at the london meets. 
We're branching out. 
We're trying to get more meetings We'll have more meetings in the uk in 2023 with any luck We're working on the italian one, uh to get rome up and going Um, but that person's had a few problems. 
Um, so we're not going to put any pressure on them. 
So you know The love got shared around, you know To me, it's my life. 
It's all been a big place in my life. 
I've met some very very good friends through 2600 meets And um, likewise, I just love the community really? 
Yeah, it's just my life. 
It's so unique. 
So awesome. 
I am thinking about I was thinking about rebel Okay, it does feel like the 90s again when he phoned in and I was wondering do you want us to send the boys around? 
Like we did last time I can sort of take care of him Because I do believe if you go through the archives the radio show after beyond hope It was the last time we dealt with the rebel situation. 
Well, I gotta tell you. 
Um, Uh, I don't know if you listened, uh in years past where we were going through old voicemail recordings Uh or voice bbs recordings from back then. 
Um, there are lots there are tons of you remember we had a voice bbs In yeah in 1996 97 Well the messages for that board still exist except they're in a format that we could not Um translate and and thanks to some listeners. 
It took us a while We were able to do just that but now we're in the process of going through hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of messages And weeding out the ones that are obviously private messages or ones that are unsuitable for one reason or another And rebel is on a lot of those he's on a lot of those talking about beyond hope you're probably on a couple uh, and um We're gonna hear them at some point So it's just that that universe is still out there and it was very unique a very special time and yes send the boys around I imagine they've probably gained quite a bit of weight by by Over the years just but there's still an intimidating. 
So, you know though, but rebel's been He's been shooting hoops and stuff. 
He's got boys too. 
He's been he's been working out. 
Yeah, so you might be surprised They have his back Well, you know, he's been a great good memories, yeah, he's traveling around the world now he went to russia of all things I think he came via london, but he didn't tell me he was passing through the nerves, right? 
He should have Yeah, well, we'll certainly tell you when we're in I'm i'm still trying to track down some of the people from beyond hope actually because he got the tiny t-shell Uh net weasel, especially i'm trying to track down i've had no word of net weasel What happened net weasel? 
I don't know what happened to a lot of people It's it's it's kind of weird to think you You know listening to these things you hear a voice and it triggers a memory and you say what happened? 
Where did that person go? 
What became of them and there's oftentimes no trace at all because all you knew was a handle And you know if it's someone like net weasel, okay, what does that translate to? 
How are you going to find somebody with that name? 
So, um, yeah, oh i've got his real name but i'm not going to give it out. 
Okay. 
Well then you're ahead of me Yeah All right. 
Yeah. 
No, I miss all those guys Um, we had a good time. 
It's the first time I went to new york and I hope Yeah, I remember I remember that very distinctly. 
It was uh, it was an event. 
It was an amazing event Keep the stories alive, you know share What you can remember and and uh try to get in touch like like you're uh mentioning because that's how you keep keep, uh what it was and and and uh, Keep it pass it along that memory and and uh people will get the spirit from those stories I think of course anyone has recordings or pictures. 
Please share those as well because that way we document that I just want to add just that voicemail thing. 
Like we mentioned it once on the air nobody said anything and this is after I found like a power supply from a mac that like eventually got this old like uh 386 go or it's It's a 286. 
I think it's windows 3-1. 
We have to run. 
I think it's even earlier Yeah, it's anyway that that booted up. 
We copied the files. 
I don't know how we got them off the hard drive Somehow with like an ide converter. 
It was it was a made an appeal. 
Nobody said anything Then we mentioned it again a couple years later on the radio and somebody actually responded and told us what was going on with it Played around with it a little bit and uh, and then we did a bunch of batches and are going through them So many messages. 
Oh my god, just keep going is this is the theme there? 
I guess just relentlessly and uh get those stories. 
Uh, make sure that That they don't just disappear on that hard drive or whatever it is. 
You're doing, you know share and uh Other people will react and that that that stuff's priceless and and share it with jason over at internet archive And uh, if you don't do anything, it'll be preserved forever Yep, um, i've got a load of photos. 
I need to scan maybe send some to you There's some video. 
Um I'm still trying to track down the video of you emmanuel abseiling outside the pub I have that somewhere on one of my computers just there was a video of me It was weird because I had to make a flight to paris I think early in the morning you guys were having a party in a pub and the only way that we could have the pub was Uh for the door to be locked at a certain time And so I couldn't go downstairs and leave when when my taxi was arriving the only way for me To leave the second floor was out the window and that of course presented a problem of how to do that safely and somehow You you guys over in the uk were prepared for this they managed. 
Oh my and and it was scary And if you look at me, i'm like, uh, basically my my head is pointed directly down at the ground I'm upside down. 
I'm just going very slowly down until I until I actually was on the ground and and that was it That was how I left london Yeah, um i'm thinking that was 96 1996 Possibly yeah, I I was in england then so no definitely. 
I've got a very good memory That's the problem. 
I have a very good memory if I get arrested and they ask me about the hacking scene in the uk A lot of people get busted Well, don't tempt them They're going to be looking for you It's okay. 
I just say i'm crazy and I should get away with that. 
I'll be the insanity You could probably you could probably get away with that. 
Yes Well, I think I could jab is so great to hear from you. 
Uh, and and please stay in touch And we look forward to seeing you again Will be all right. 
I'll find you when I want to phone in. 
All right, cool. 
All right. 
Take care everyone. 
Be well All right folks, I think that's going to do it for us tonight I think we've uh We said enough that election was stolen. 
Oh, shut up. 
It was shut up. 
Get out of here. 
So sorry I'm sick. 
I just wanted to remind you. 
Yeah You've warmed up the uh, the transcription engine the ai is awakened You want to make sure we uh send a few more messages? 
Do you think youtube's going to kick us off again? 
Maybe we should bet on this. 
Uh I would think I would think yes folks if you're listening, you better grab this show now Well, actually we always keep a copy on our site anyway, which is why you you run your own site So that this kind of crap can't happen or whoever's in charge of appeals Go ahead and uh, keep the light on for us. 
We'll be there Soon as it's taken down, but uh, yeah, whatever I I don't I don't I don't suffer this gladly at all. 
I just don't One more time for the road. 
You want me to play it again? 
Fine the whole thing that election was stolen It was and let me tell you why i'll tell you that as soon as I tell you why All vaccinations are bad. 
No, i'm kidding. 
I'm kidding. 
You know, we can we can joke right we can right Well, we'll find out I guess I guess we will. 
Yeah Well guys, it was so much fun having you this week. 
It really was Change of pace. 
We had a treat. 
Thank you. 
Yeah, and and and just spanning the globe the way the way you guys are It's it's just you're both Testament to the joy of travel and innovation and it's just so much fun every time we're together Indeed and this is the first time we're together since july in new york Yeah, remember the chinese place we found at two in the morning in flushing. 
Oh so much fun so much fun, we were exhausted and just all your help throughout and and uh, We're just happy to share that experience and and everything, uh to come with with y'all and everybody listening but that that That just was it the the that we made it and had a successful event It was a sunday too a sunday night at two in the morning We found the that's how you know, you're in new york city at two in the morning can find great authentic chinese food in In queens and the place had open the name. 
What was it called? 
Hope to see you Let's just hope that was the name of the place. 
What was it called? 
Hope to see you. 
I believe yeah, okay Yeah Yeah, that's great. 
So that was a totally fitting way to end a totally crazy experience Uh, no the totally fitting way was the next morning driving in a 2600 van in a severe thunderstorm That was the that was the actual way to leave Well me and greg missed that particular Actually, no I was driving the rider truck wasn't I or the rental truck I was I was behind you You were in the 20s. 
I was and this is a true story. 
Uh, I was at an intersection in queens It's pouring down rain and this stupid truck which I was having an argument from the very beginning had no air conditioning It was awful I couldn't figure out how to turn the windshield wiper on because Every vehicle has it in a different place and this one it wasn't a switch. 
It was it was a dial but I couldn't find it so I at the light i'm yelling to kyle where I have to come up here and help me In in the middle of traffic he runs up and and shows somehow, you know Shows me how to turn the windshield wiper on and that's how we got back Yeah, yes i'm very Intuitive and kinesthetic for all the smoothness you ever experience at a hope conference There are many scenes like that that happens. 
So just keep that in mind but we we figured out together, so Until next time let's stay in touch. 
Yes Listeners, we hope to see you again soon. 
Thank you. 
And thank you guys Mitch greg. 
Yeah. 
Thanks. 
Be well Have a good one. 
Be well. 
Bye. 
Bye. 
Appreciate all the calls, too