Number two, give to w b a i.org on line to show your support. 
As you know, we're going through some stuff. 
I'm being super duper over simple simplistic about this. 
You know, it's a lot more complex than that, but we're going through some stuff. 
We need your help and will be nice if you can participate into our supporting our financial situation. 
All right, enough of that out of the way. 
7 p.m. 
Stay tuned for off the hook coming up. 
Due to the hurricane in the area you are calling, your call cannot be completed at this time. 
Please try your call later. 
Zero seven eight p. 
You have reached ninety nine point five. 
W.B.A.I. 
Is now off the hook. 
The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall. 
I cut myself while shaving. 
Now I can't make a call. 
We couldn't get much worse. 
But if they could, they would. 
Bum diddly bum, for the best, expect the worst. 
I hope that's understood. 
Bum diddly bum! 
And a very good evening to everybody, the program is Off the Hook, Emanuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by Kyle. 
Yes. 
You can talk a little louder than that. 
Yeah, I'm over here. 
How's it going? 
We've got a brand new setup here, so we're testing it out for the first time. 
It could be a rough road here. 
In fact, for many people, we haven't been on the air for so long, this might be a brand new show. 
Yeah, our first edition of Off the Hook. 
We're starting here in 2023. 
Also, I should point out that Alex is joining us over in Skype Land. 
Alex, are you there? 
Fingers crossed. 
I am indeed. 
Hello, hello. 
Okay, should I bring him up a little bit? 
He's a little low. 
Or are you going to do it? 
I could do it, or you could do it. 
Why don't you do it? 
That way I don't have to do anything. 
All right, I'll try. 
Yeah, I prefer that. 
Alex, you are in Skype Land, but you also are in a physical location. 
What's your physical location? 
I am. 
Just like you, I'm in a physical location as well. 
In time and space, I am in London. 
It's like digital TV now. 
You have a virtual channel, and you have an actual channel. 
I can't really figure that out myself yet, but I will. 
But yeah, you actually are in London again, and that's pretty amazing. 
It's late. 
It's late where you are. 
Later. 
It is, but it's not as late as it usually is in London, because of our word daylight savings time. 
The clocks have not been set forward an hour here yet for British summer time, so it's only 11 p.m. 
here in London, when it's usually 12 a.m. 
When do you start subscribing to the lunacy of daylight savings time over there? 
I don't know. 
That's a good question. 
You'd have to ask somebody British about British summer time. 
Well, you're a lot closer to a British person than I am right now. 
Maybe. 
Maybe not. 
Can't you just stick your head out the window and say, hey, boy, what day is it? 
After he tells you what day it is, when does daylight savings time start? 
I probably could. 
I mean, I'm in a fairly busy road in Chelsea, and yeah, maybe I'll do this throughout the course of the show. 
That looks like Sharon Cross that is behind you. 
It kind of looks that way. 
Sharon Cross? 
Yeah. 
No. 
The building there. 
Is that a landscape, or are you actually outside? 
No. 
I'm in the Chelsea Arts Club, actually. 
I see. 
I'm inside. 
Is that the place you're not allowed to use a phone? 
That's correct. 
So if you're in a private room in the club, then you can use a phone. 
So I'm lodging here. 
So it's like my hotel room, so to speak, so I can use a phone here. 
Are you sure? 
You're not allowed to use a phone. 
Are you sure you're allowed to use a phone in a private room there? 
There might be a rule. 
They're very well made, but I think it's an A-OK. 
But throughout the rest of the club, that is the one rule here, is that you're not allowed to use your phone. 
And readers of 2600 will be treated to some narrative about this place. 
Well, don't give it away. 
Don't ruin the surprise. 
I'm not ruining the whole thing. 
No, I think it's going to be an interesting column coming out. 
I liked it. 
I hope you did. 
I will reserve my comment until the issue comes out. 
I don't want to spoil it any more than you already have. 
OK, so just for technical purposes here, because Kyle basically worked his ass off putting this new studio setup together, are you able to hear OK over there in London, our voices? 
Yeah, it's very loud, very clear. 
Not too loud. 
I'd say it's just right. 
You're in the Goldilocks zone. 
OK, good. 
Of course, the real test comes later when we go on YouTube at 8 o'clock, because that's always where we have trouble for some reason. 
And if you want to join us in overtime, just go to our YouTube channel, channel 2600, and you can call us and talk with us. 
And it'll be a whole lot of fun. 
Rob and Gila are out this week, but we'll be back next week. 
And we have all kinds of things to talk about. 
Oh, my goodness. 
Well, where do I start? 
There's a lot of car news lately that I think we should just quickly go through, because there is a bunch of artificial intelligence subject matter that we have to get to. 
But this car business is really something that is bothering me on a number of different fronts. 
AM radio, our cousins on the other band, AM radio, they are under real threat, because more and more car makers are discontinuing putting AM radios in the cars that they build. 
Now, this is also related to the industry going to electrification, electric cars. 
Apparently, electric cars interfere, or the radio interferes with... 
You can't hear AM radio in electric cars, or many of them. 
Some part of the engineering noise and interference is inescapable. 
I guess it's from all of the motors spinning, creating electromagnetic fields of sorts. 
I don't know. 
It's all related. 
And when you have circuitry like that connected, getting a reception that is somewhat sensitive to that interference becomes nearly impossible. 
Well, I mean, it sounds like a them problem. 
It's like, okay, that it sounds like you're not ready for electric cars yet. 
If you can't figure out how to shield AM radios from the electric signals that the cars are putting off. 
You know, I had, in one of my cars years ago, a shortwave radio. 
Believe it or not, I was able to get a shortwave radio. 
And I noticed with dismay that whenever I would turn on the headlights, I would get interference on the shortwave radio, which made the shortwave radio completely useless. 
Yeah, people said, oh, you have to go to a radio technician to fix that. 
And then someone else said, no, you have to go to somebody who can figure out how to shield the headlights. 
Basically, it all turned into work for me. 
And no, that's not how it should work at all. 
It should be something that is ready for the consumers. 
AM radio is hugely important. 
Now, look, I don't listen to AM radio all that much. 
I listen to the Indian radio station, which is great. 
I'm not going to give the frequency out, but people can find it. 
Sometimes I listen to all news. 
Sometimes I listen to distant stations from different cities. 
There are all kinds of interesting things on there. 
There are a lot of things that I don't like on AM radio. 
I hate speech. 
A lot of right-wing talk radio is, in fact, it's all right-wing talk radio, a proliferation of sports. 
But I know this is important to people, and it should continue to exist. 
On AM radio, there's something about the sound of AM radio. 
Not everybody gets this. 
Not everybody feels the same way. 
But if I hear music on AM radio, particularly classical music, there's something about that that you just can't duplicate anywhere else. 
There's just something so, I don't know, you're connected to the past somehow. 
Same thing with popular music. 
If you hear a Beatles song or something on AM, it has to sound crappy. 
It just sounds better for some reason. 
I know that sounds crazy, but that's part of the magic of AM radio. 
It very much deserves to continue to exist, as does shortwave. 
I wish there was more going on on shortwave these days, but right now we just have to try and save AM radio. 
That feeling, you become transfixed as though you're in a really faraway seat in an amphitheater or a very large performance space, except it's in the air. 
And I love that sensation that you're talking about. 
Two questions I had was just in response to this, I wonder if a lot of the programming on AM is now going to be looking for low power FM or FM writ large, middle of the dial, all that. 
Those interests, yeah. 
Becoming non-profits, thinking religious stations, going and crowding up certain parts of the spectrum and so forth. 
The other question I had is, it seems to me with all of the interesting things going on with electronics and miniaturization, how we have small receivers and software-defined radios, there couldn't be some way to locate the antennas and sorts of things or shield them like you're talking about. 
And I'm wondering maybe cost is a part of this. 
They just don't want to spend and so forth. 
Of course. 
There are solutions to all this. 
If you can build an electric car, you can figure out a way to build an electric car where you can also have an AM radio. 
If the receiver's way up high and away from certain things, or I don't know how that all works. 
Ford is the company doing it, the latest company doing it. 
They were joined by BMW, Mazda, Polestar? 
Yeah, that's like a new, they started with like a luxury competitor. 
You know what, we're not going to talk about them because they're kicking AM radio out. 
We would talk about you if you weren't doing that, but we're not going to now. 
So go to hell, Polestar. 
It's an accident. 
Rivian, never heard of Rivian either. 
Tesla, heard of them. 
Same thing. 
Volkswagen. 
We know their story. 
They all are saying that AM radio is incompatible with EVs, electric vehicles, citing electromagnetic interference from the powertrain. 
Yes, that is a word, the powertrain. 
So that sounds awesome and cool. 
And when I was eight, I would have really liked that. 
And Tesla made the same argument when it removed AM radios from its vehicles back in 2018. 
You might even say they're pioneers in getting rid of things. 
Electric vehicles are powered by a rechargeable battery, electric motor, and a frequency converter that controls how much power the car's electrical motors put out by turning voltage on and off thousands of times a second, basically chopping up energy. 
This process causes electromagnetic interference that gets picked up by the radio. 
Well, I maintain radios are an essential part of a traveling vehicle, and they should not be eliminated simply because this new technology can't figure out how to not interfere. 
Alex, any thoughts? 
On the other hand, if the technology of an AM radio is completely useless in these electronic vehicles, why persist with them? 
Define completely useless. 
How is it useless? 
If there's interference and the frequency is not audible, if you can't hear what people are saying on AM radio, or you can't hear the classical music you still nostalgically yearn for, then what's the point of having a piece of technology that doesn't work? 
Let me just throw that back at you and say, if your steering wheel stops working, do you need that anymore? 
Come on. 
Well, that's a bit different. 
It's a little bit different, yes. 
Everything is going to be a little bit different. 
But my point is that in an emergency, and I've been in plenty of emergencies where I've been driving in a car, and I need to listen to the radio, an AM radio is what is on and broadcasting to the local community, whether it's in a hurricane, in a blackout, in insurrections. 
Yes, I've been in a few of those. 
I think that AM radio has a wider range. 
It is able to reach a huge number of people. 
There's no reason. 
I mean, what if the same thing happens to FM radio? 
Would you say the same thing then, or are we just, we feel better being on FM than people on AM? 
Well, I just, you know, I'm taking a contrary point for the sake of it. 
But I think that the idea that you should have technology in a car essentially solely for nostalgia is silly. 
But that's not, no. 
I was bringing up the nostalgia. 
That's not the only reason. 
That's one of the attributes. 
But AM radio serves a very important, why do you think the all-news stations are always on AM? 
You know? 
I'm not disagreeing with that. 
But that's a totally separate point. 
You don't need high fidelity for certain bits of communication. 
And I think our arguments are like ships passing in the night here. 
I agree with all those points. 
What I disagree with, though, is the fact that an AM radio still needs to be a critical component of a car if it doesn't work in that car because of this interference with electric vehicles. 
Do you really believe, in this day and age, this is an impossible problem to solve? 
Well, it may be an economically infeasible problem to solve. 
Not to me, because I'm not going to buy an electric vehicle if I can't get an AM radio in it. 
And I mean that. 
I won't. 
Well, you know, that's your choice, of course. 
The other thing that you could do, if you really want an AM radio, is to just carry an AM radio with you. 
If I could do that—hold on a second, Alex—if I could do that, then wouldn't that same interference affect that AM radio as well? 
I don't know. 
Maybe. 
Maybe not. 
I mean, that's something you should try. 
I mean, how far afield does this interference actually cause an AM radio to be dysfunctional? 
Well, do you see? 
You're already figuring out how to solve the problem. 
If you just have to hold the AM radio in a different part of the car, and you don't get interference, then you've solved the problem. 
Maybe. 
Well, here's the other thing. 
You know, and this would go towards your point of including AM radios in cars, and I do believe that they do have a function, especially given the wider distance that AM radio covers as opposed to FM. 
But if it's the operation of the motor of an electric vehicle, this on and off voltage that was used in the motor, that creates the interference, then one would think that an AM radio would still function in an electric vehicle if it was turned off, if it wasn't moving. 
Right? 
Mm-hmm. 
I mean, so that— You're saying, turn the car off if you want to listen to the radio. 
Yeah. 
Or if you're stationary. 
Well, you know, that sounds absurd, but actually that is a good point, because there are many times I've listened to the radio in a car that was not on, so yeah, you could do that. 
Right. 
And why take away that? 
I mean, imagine, you know, you're on a mountaintop, and your favorite song comes on, and you hear it from a distant station, and we're not supposed to have those moments anymore, because Tesla can't figure out how to make a car that doesn't interfere with AM radios. 
Yeah. 
Yeah, I mean, look, I disagree with taking them out entirely, but if they are entirely dysfunctional, I disagree with keeping them in. 
Yeah, it's disappointing that they're discussing its end and no longer implementing it in any way without a sort of future AM or, you know, trying to introduce something that will allow that capability to continue, that sort of legacy thing. 
We have more questions, it seems. 
Maybe someone can write in, oth at 2600.com, tell us your opinion. 
Is it totally out of the question, just because of the way the frequencies work? 
Can someone please explain what this pulse, what kind of interference it creates? 
Are there other things that can be interfered with? 
What other concerns are actually being raised, perhaps? 
Is that something that you should consider when purchasing an electric vehicle, if you have some sort of medical device and other thing? 
Look, AM radio has been around for a hundred years. 
There has been all kinds of interference that it's dealt with in that period of time. 
Is there another suitable frequency that potentially could be repurposed or... 
Well, they're not going to move the AM band. 
...complement it? 
I mean, you have to work within the frequency range that's already allocated. 
So there's no real way to get around that. 
And if it's just impossible because the field is so strong, I mean, typically there's like a powertrain, what they mean is like a motor in each wheel, like independently, it's not the same as like a central engine in... 
We've been to the moon, we sent rovers to Mars, we collided with an asteroid and knocked it off course. 
We can fix this. 
We can figure out how to make a car not interfere with an AM radio. 
It's just a question of, do people think it's important enough? 
I think it is. 
I think AM radio is something that should be preserved and is quite useful, even though most of the stuff that's on it is, you know, things I don't listen to. 
But I don't think that should be the reason not to pursue something. 
Anyway, moving on. 
That was meant to be a two minute story there. 
Have you heard about this? 
This is also a very quick mention here. 
But Volkswagen has this service called Carnet, and there was this kid who was missing, basically in a stolen car. 
Okay. 
Hold on a second. 
The kid didn't steal the car. 
The kid was in the car. 
The car got stolen. 
And they're searching for the stolen vehicle and an endangered child. 
And what do the sheriff's detectives do? 
They call Volkswagen Carnet to track down the vehicle. 
And you know what they did? 
Carnet said, yeah, we can't do that unless you pay for the service. 
You got to pay to have the tracking device activated in Volkswagen Carnet. 
See, Carnet lets owners track and control their vehicles remotely. 
According to a Chicago Sun-Times article, the Carnet trial period had ended, and a representative wanted $150 to restart the service and locate the SUV. 
The detective pleaded, explaining the extremely exigent circumstance, but the representative didn't budge, saying it was company policy. 
That representative is looking for employment. 
If anybody has the need for a firm and resolute person who does not back down, well, they're available now. 
Yeah, this is the kind of stupidity that you see when these services are subscription services and you have, you know, people who are obstinate, who don't recognize when an emergency is. 
I mean, it doesn't surprise me, though, entirely, because this is sort of like it's a embedded cellular receiver of sorts that has some kind of virtual SIM. 
So it's attached to some kind of carrier that the car manufacturer has like a bulk subscriber commitment to them. 
So there probably is some process to activate it. 
If it was not being paid for, it seems like they do actually want to collect some money to initiate a new subscription via whatever third party they have sort of a business to business relationship with. 
I'm not defending it, and I don't know, I mean, I only defend it, I guess, in the sense that it's sort of denying this sort of surveillance ability in some respects. 
So there's that advantage, I think we might consider more than most folks. 
But I don't know. 
What do you all think? 
Is it to have just a status that every car company knows, you know, the equivalent of Amber Alert, and you get a call from a law enforcement agency saying, this is a situation now. 
Okay, that's an effect. 
We press the button and the service suddenly works without getting paid. 
You know, you get the free service if your kid gets abducted. 
Okay, it's a little bit of a consolation. 
I don't see how that's hard. 
I don't see why that isn't something that already isn't installed. 
Yeah, I mean, maybe you have like a family mode or something that you can activate that for that is where it's a default, or you opt out of it, and it's a default. 
And the police, it's an emergency. 
They say this is the case, and the car manufacturer has the ability to override that. 
Indeed. 
Yeah, I was gonna say, much like the old cell phones from the 3G networks would still be able to dial 911 if there was no SIM or it wasn't attached to a subscription. 
So it is certainly possible it was on those. 
Can you imagine that? 
You can't call 911 because you didn't pay your phone bill. 
That's the same mentality. 
That's less. 
Sorry. 
Alex, go ahead. 
I mean, that's a little bit different in that sense, 911, I think, because it's an emergency service. 
This is an exigent circumstance that law enforcement would be utilizing to engage in, I think, what Kyle correctly characterized as a surveillance technology. 
So I think we have to be careful about espousing some kind of law enforcement and run around our privacy rights here, even though this was a pretty egregious situation. 
Hang on, Alex. 
Didn't you say the parents of the child had initiated that action? 
It's not the police doing it independently. 
Maybe. 
I don't know. 
The facts of what you read to me didn't indicate anything about the parents consenting to this or trying themselves with Volkswagen. 
I mean, I do think it's dangerous to give law enforcement some kind of power to turn on surveillance technology in a car when they believe it's an exigent circumstance. 
But they're not turning it on. 
The car manufacturer is. 
They're using some kind of authorization from the police because the parents of the missing child have asked them to do that. 
Now, if they said, don't do that, I'm sure that would be in the story. 
Obviously, they shouldn't do it in that particular case. 
In this particular case, I think it's, you know, look, it seems like it's warranted. 
However, I would prefer that the police go and get a warrant. 
I would prefer that they go to a judge and a judge says, yes, this is a negative circumstance that justifies you getting this information from Volkswagen. 
And look, and you can do that within half an hour, an hour. 
It doesn't take that long. 
Yeah. 
But have you ever been in a carjacker's car for an hour? 
The time really crawls. 
I think this this might be something where we're starting to act like that representative who is stonewalling the people who. 
I don't think so. 
I don't think so. 
I think we have to have clear barriers between what kind of data law enforcement can access about the whereabouts of our vehicles or they can begin giving some kind of pretextual justification that looks like an exigent circumstance that would allow them to access that data when they shouldn't be accessing it. 
But why? 
This is the slippery slope. 
I don't understand why you're introducing warrants into this, because obviously somebody called the cops, said my kid is missing. 
Please find my kid. 
Why would you need to go to a judge after that? 
The cops should say, yeah, OK, you've given us permission. 
We will contact the car manufacturer, get the get the service turned on and find out where your kid is. 
So if this set of parents said, I think my kid is in Emanuel Goldstein's house, would the police then be allowed to enter your house? 
It's not. 
My house is not a car, OK? 
This is a car. 
It's a moving vehicle. 
That's what we're talking about. 
It's not the parents property either. 
Yeah, it's their car. 
It's different because we're talking about mobility. 
I agree that it's different, that it's their car. 
That's a big distinction. 
I totally agree with that, because if they consented to law enforcement accessing this data, then sure, right? 
Then there's a consent issue. 
But I don't agree with giving law enforcement some kind of back end route to this particular data whenever there's an exigent. 
That's not what I'm talking about. 
I'm talking about this particular situation where there's a kid missing, being carjacked, and the parents obviously are very concerned about this, and they contact the law enforcement people. 
Having some representative say, yeah, you've got to pay us before you do that, I think that is a real problem. 
Oh, it's totally ridiculous on many levels. 
On the other hand, from the perspective of the customer service representative, thinking about it from a different angle entirely, this guy probably works for some contractor, not necessarily even for Volkswagen, who probably has very little authority to do anything at his discretion. 
He's just going to be completely on the rails. 
Yeah, they have a narrow management objective as far as fielding calls. 
It's an unusual call, however dire the circumstance. 
I'm with you, I think, the privacy aspects and just writ large. 
This is about consumer expectations. 
I think for these types of vehicles, there's probably a very quick way to figure out, okay, what make, model, what year, what are the capabilities of it? 
As customers and owners of this vehicle, they maybe have an expectation that we know it can be found. 
It has this ability to use this. 
We used the trial period up. 
Whatever the case, they have an expectation now, but overall, with transportation vehicles in general, if that's not a capability of the car, that's something that the consumer knows. 
They know that this car doesn't have electronics and so on and so forth. 
Yeah, that's another factor. 
You should be aware what the capabilities are of your vehicle, and that's part of what the customer agrees to when they're purchasing and subscribing to these kinds of services, so on and so forth. 
Except they let their subscription lapse, and then their kid got abducted. 
It's interesting to me, the reverse. 
This is paralleling some of the stories I've heard. 
I don't know if you all have these vehicle leases and things that people stop making payments on them, and the manufacturers now are able to disable the vehicles. 
Do we have a story on that? 
We have a story, actually. 
This is our final car story. 
This has to do with cars that repossess themselves. 
I'm not kidding. 
This is something that is actually coming out. 
Basically, there'll be several warnings from the vehicle before the system initiates a formal repossession. 
If these warnings are ignored, the car would begin to lose functionality ahead of a repo. 
The first lost functions would be minor inconveniences like cruise control, automated window controls — that's trying to torture you — automated seat controls, and some components of the infotainment system, such as AM radio — no, actually, all radio — global positioning system, MP3 player, etc. 
The next level is more serious, and includes the loss of things like the air conditioning system, a remote key fob, and an automated door lock unlock system. 
Wait, they're going to try to cook you in there? 
Basically, making you not want your car anymore because it's not working. 
That could endanger — It could, absolutely. 
Yeah, then they cut the brakes, and yeah. 
Maybe you'll pay now. 
I'm kidding about the brakes, but maybe not in the future. 
Likewise, an incessant and unpleasant sound may be turned on every time the owner is present in the vehicle. 
Only when the owner is present. 
When other people are present, that sound won't be there. 
But when that person is there, yeah, they'll play the sound. 
So if all of that gets endured by the car's owner, and payment still has not been received, they could get locked out of the car. 
The patent application — this is what this is, a patent application — states that the repossession system computer may disable the door lock mechanism, thereby placing the vehicle in a lockout condition and preventing a person from entering a cabin of the vehicle. 
Now, there are several caveats that go with this, such as locking out the owner only on weekends or allowing for vehicle use in emergency situations. 
Indeed, the patent explicitly notes that if somebody is suffering from something like a heart attack — it uses the heart attack situation several times in the document — then the car could be unlocked. 
How does it know you're having a heart attack? 
I guess you have to swear you're having a heart attack? 
It says the vehicle's onboard camera could be used alongside a neural network to determine if an emergency situation is legitimate. 
Whoa, whoa, whoa. 
Who let the neural network in here? 
We're worried about the cops, but the car manufacturers are watching all the time. 
Wow. 
I didn't know that. 
Yeah, that's creepy. 
This has been infotainment just on steroids. 
You know, chips and chips and more chips. 
All chips, no dip. 
It's there. 
It's in this stuff now. 
It gets better. 
It gets better, Kyle. 
In some cases, the vehicle can be a semi-autonomous vehicle, and the repossession system computer may cooperate with the vehicle computer in the semi-autonomous vehicle to autonomously move the vehicle from a first spot to a second spot that is more convenient for a tow truck to tow the vehicle. 
The first spot, for example, may be located inside the property line of the owner, like a garage or a driveway. 
The second spot may be outside the property line, like a public road. 
Not sure how they're going to open up the garage door, but I'm sure they have a plan for that as well. 
In some other cases, the vehicle can be an autonomous vehicle, and the repossession system computer may cooperate with the vehicle computer to autonomously move the vehicle from the premises of the owner to a location like the premises of the repossession agency. 
They can also, if the car is not worth very much, just have it go to a junkyard. 
They'll do that. 
They'll have your car drive itself to a junkyard because you didn't pay, and have it destroyed right in front of your eyes. 
So yeah, that's what Ford is applying for. 
This is another Ford thing. 
They're applying for that patent to self-repossess cars and drive themselves away, and that'll be the end of it. 
Does it check to make sure you're not in it when it goes to the junkyard? 
If that kid isn't in it, yeah. 
I mean, that's certainly... 
All kinds of bad things can happen here. 
Messed up. 
Mm-hmm. 
Really messed up. 
Alex, are you still there? 
I see you. 
I don't see your face anymore. 
I think he is. 
He is. 
Okay, good, good. 
I am here. 
Because I want you to hear this story. 
This is something that really kind of annoyed me. 
Has to do with a chat GPT, as you might know. 
And basically, Elon Musk has been criticizing chat GPT for being too woke. 
Yeah, that's the word that the right wing is constantly using for everything they don't like. 
Now, artificial intelligence is too woke. 
And the reason that he concluded that chat GPT is too woke is because it wouldn't create a poem that said nice things about Donald Trump. 
That is the acid test. 
Wouldn't do it. 
It did it for Biden, but it wouldn't do it for Trump. 
And that, that is basically being used by the right wing as evidence that artificial intelligence is woke. 
Now, Elon Musk is an open AI co-founder who has since severed ties with the company. 
He's routinely criticized them for implementing safeguards that prevent the chatbot from producing responses that could be deemed offensive. 
Now, the president, open AI's current president, actually is taking responsibility for this, saying we made a mistake. 
The system we implemented did not reflect the values we intended to be in there. 
And I think we were not fast enough to address that. 
And I think that's a legitimate criticism of us. 
Really? 
That's a legitimate criticism? 
Not coming up with a poem to extol the virtues of Donald Trump? 
I mean, where do you draw the line? 
Let's have a little limerick about the Klan, you know? 
Is there any kind of a line that we don't cross? 
Let's not. 
No. 
Let's not do that. 
I mean, yeah, there are people there that like this guy. 
I know that. 
But I don't know. 
I mean, I have my feelings about the person, about what the person has done, and I am struggling to find anything good to say. 
And I worry, if we have this bit of technology that is able to generate all kinds of praise for somebody who is almost universally, except for a bunch of people in this country, seen as a negative force, where does that stop? 
Where is the line, if the line is not there? 
Alex, any thoughts? 
Yeah, I think I have a couple of thoughts, unless I think that, in a sense, an AI can only be expected to generate responses with respect to the data on which it was trained. 
And so if it was not trained on, or rather, if there is no data in existence about the positive things that Donald Trump has done, then you can't expect it to just generate falsehoods and fabricate things, right? 
I also think one possible explanation is that when you define, you know, what is a positive thing, or a positive benefit, as the AI would understand those words, it might actually be difficult for it to conjure up examples of good things that Donald Trump has done, perhaps given the data on which it is trained. 
However, and I don't want this conversation to be a referendum on whether or not Trump did anything good at his presidency, but I think there is one very clear thing that he did in his presidency, and I think we can all agree on, was a tremendous success. 
Okay, hold on, everybody quiet, I want to hear this, go ahead. 
Operation Warp Speed. 
And ironically, you know, it is the very thing that the conservatives absolutely hate. 
I think Trump did a fantastic job as President of the United States in getting the federal government to work with pharmaceutical companies to develop a vaccine for COVID. 
You got to admit, that was an initiative under him as President that actually worked out for the benefit not only of the United States, but I think of the entire planet. 
And it is ironically the one thing that bizarrely the conservatives should be taking credit for, but yet they've latched onto nonsensical, idiotic conspiracy theories about. 
Now is this something that he takes credit for as well, or is he trying to somehow distance himself from that? 
I don't know, but he should be taking credit for it, because it was a massive success under his administration. 
Well, you know, again, any administration, just because something happens under it doesn't mean it's your fault, or that you're the one that thought of it. 
But it is possible, it is possible that he came up with a good idea, and that might have been it. 
I don't know if you can write a poem based on that one thing, but there are probably a couple of other things. 
I mean, I'm struggling in my head to think of something good to say about it. 
I'm thinking, okay, what I got is that, well, he grew up in Queens, and no, I mean, that's something, that's good. 
I, you know, if you grew up in Queens, that's legit, but I can't get past that, you know, that's the thing. 
Grew up in Queens. 
Grew up very close to where I grew up, too, by the way, within a mile. 
I was six, but still. 
Oh, I didn't know that. 
Oh, yeah. 
Interesting. 
Wow. 
I'm coming up empty. 
But, I mean, if you want to write something about Mussolini, for instance, I'm not going to say Hitler, I'm just going to say Mussolini, or Idi Amin, you know, one of the milder dictators. 
Well, no, he wasn't a mild dictator, but, you know, at some point, you're going to find a bunch of people who like somebody who is truly evil, and is artificial intelligence going to help them, you know, build up the person more? 
And should we object if it doesn't do that? 
Obviously, there are going to be a set of values that any artificial intelligence creation is going to have. 
You know, it's going to believe in science, it's going to believe in facts, and right away, those two things are components that have become the enemy. 
You know, science, facts, no, we're going to make our own science, our own facts. 
So, yeah, I guess you could make artificial intelligence that doesn't play by those rules, but is that useful to anybody? 
I don't know. 
I mean, I do tend to think that there should be maybe a bit more balance, or maybe creativity, or perhaps fewer parameters on the basis of certain content. 
You know, putting guardrails around, I think, subjective, very purely subjective values about, let's say, the worth of a president, or political values and ideals, is maybe not a great thing to have built into the data sets of an artificial intelligence. 
But look, I think it's a very tricky issue. 
I'm not entirely on one side of this or another at the moment. 
It's tough. 
It's tough to figure out exactly where the right place to land is. 
But I do see the danger in just, you know, basically having this tool that can make anybody look good. 
You know, at some point you have to say, well, this person really isn't that good, and, you know, take the risk of somebody disagreeing with you. 
But I don't know. 
It could go very badly if we don't think this through. 
Yeah. 
I think I just want to add, it depends on how we're using it. 
If it's something that the public is going to be using widely in a sort of test, I think that's distinct from something that might be being used in some legal firm, like a professional or in an academic scenario where you're doing other sorts of testing. 
And that, I think, goes along with this take that you've already mentioned, which is, what are we using to train it with? 
I guess the reason I'm having such trouble with this is because, as I said, facts became the enemy. 
You know, I disagree with Reagan on just about everything. 
He pointed to facts, you know, like his theories on economics I thought were idiotic, but they were theories that I disagreed with. 
In Trump's case, and in many of the Republicans' cases these days, basically facts don't matter, and you see something and they tell you that you didn't see it. 
You know, I can't tell you the number of times where I get attacked on Twitter for saying something by somebody from the right wing, and their argument against me is wrong. 
And that's it. 
It's the only thing they say, and they get more likes than I got for saying it in the first place, because Twitter is now a cesspool of right-wing thought and propaganda. 
That alone tells me it's a bot or something. 
Yeah, it probably is. 
But there are so many, like, for instance, you know, the size of the crowd at the inauguration. 
That was the first one, or one of the first ones. 
You know, you can look at it, you can point to a picture and say, yeah, this is not as big a crowd as another time, and they'll simply say, no, that's false, that's wrong. 
And how do you argue that? 
So if you can do that for every single fact, then you can make anybody look really good, despite the facts. 
I think also something I'm just thinking about in this conversation is the ways that negative engagement was a strong theme in social media algorithms and some of the stuff that might be used in the data that is a part of this learning algorithm and this chat program. 
But in light of that, if the preponderance of behaviors from the individual are in the fact, in reality, quite negative, both in how they speak and are publishing and the way they talk, their vernacular and so forth, as well as this thing we know actually is both being boosted by algorithms and activity on these networks, but also that is just psychologically a sort of, it is a way of getting activity because people respond in a visceral way, or they act in a way to vent. 
We know that temptation, of course, innately. 
So if the person behaves actually in this certain way, and then people are responding, this seems to me that this is really a simple answer, that they're a victim of their own behaviors, and people are reacting. 
And so there's this preponderance of negativity around that individual. 
So it seems like it would, that alone would make it much harder for something to create art that isn't in some way sarcastic or, you know, if it's being nice or a pleasant poem about someone, most of that information might actually read in like a negative way, because there's just not that much in the tons of behaviors and reactions to that behavior, a lot of positive stuff to say. 
Yes. 
A related story, I think it's related, a Russian court has fined the Wikimedia Foundation two million rubles, that's about $27,000, for failing to delete alleged misinformation about the Russian military from Wikipedia. 
Yeah, it's the third fine Russia has issued against the Wikipedia owner since Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine a year ago. 
Shortly after Russia invaded Ukraine last year, Russia introduced sweeping new laws restricting what people can report about the conflict, fining or blocking websites that spread information at odds with the Kremlin's official narrative. 
The latest fine was imposed after the authorities accused Wikipedia of spreading misinformation in articles about Russian military units. 
The Wikimedia Foundation said the fines were for not complying with takedown requests for well-sourced content related to five articles about the Russian military on Russian-language Wikipedia. 
These are part of several takedown orders and fines from Russian authorities that we continue to receive for failing to comply with similar requests. 
We have not taken down any content and already have two active appeals for fines on similar topics. 
So you see, this is what happens when you have a government that insists that what is true is not true and what is not true is true, and they penalize and threaten people who don't go along with it. 
Yeah, this is an intimidation tactic. 
Don't get this, don't be confused about this in any way. 
This is absolutely a way to chill media organizations that are actually reporting facts, and this should be met with stern disapproval among other things. 
Now, what happens when there's artificial intelligence that is basically sanctioned by the Russian government? 
I'm curious what kinds of statements will be made. 
Very interesting. 
Any thoughts, Alex? 
Yeah, I think this is really good for the Wikimedia Foundation. 
I'm very proud of them and that they stood up to this and that they are standing behind facts and the truth and not kowtowing and complying with the lowest common denominator type of governmental intrusion and interference here. 
I think it's all the more reason why we should stand behind and support initiatives like the Wikimedia Foundation, because they're out there to make sure that objectivity and truth prevails over intimidation and lies. 
Yeah, certainly. 
Absolutely. 
I'm with that. 
All right. 
Hey, we have a letter to read from one of our listeners, and you can write to us, oth at 2600.com for off the hook here at WBAI. 
Hi, everyone. 
I'm a longtime listener, potential future caller. 
I love your show, appreciate so much the effort you put into it. 
It's a special part of my week to take time to listen as I have been doing for many years since streaming became a thing. 
I think I even remember using real audio to listen years ago, and I always tune into WBAI when I'm in or going through New York City. 
Yeah, and we were in real audio way back at the very beginning, 1997, I think. 
A while back when you were playing with chat GPT, awesome use of text to speech, by the way, you mentioned and demonstrated another site which used Joe Biden's voice for the life of me. 
I can't remember the damn URL. 
What was it? 
It's absolutely creepy. 
Did we have it? 
Did we actually have the URL? 
I think we played it. 
I don't think we had a URL where you could do that. 
My recollection is this was in a news story. 
Yes, it was in a news story. 
It was featured, but the actual technology or the site behind it, I don't know that it was publicly accessible to the best of my knowledge. 
Also, a picture bird has turned out to be pretty cool once you train it a little bit. 
I guess that's what they call what I came up with, bird Shazam, and now there's picture bird, or maybe picture bird existed first. 
I don't know. 
I just wanted to have something where you could identify birds by holding your phone up. 
Urban noises have confused it from time to time with amusing results. 
My guess is there is no guy screaming at people on the street entry for it to reference. 
That would be a good one. 
At some point, I should play my instrument into it, which is a double bass, since maybe it'll think it's a very big bird. 
Thanks also for reminding me why I have zero desire to ever go to Mississippi. 
That's a reference to one of the phone calls we got on Overtime concerning some shenanigans that Republicans are doing in Mississippi with regards to taking control of courts and policing and all that kind of thing. 
Rebel notwithstanding, I look forward to the next show, David in Baltimore. 
David, thank you very much for that phone call. 
Of course, people can write to us, oth at 2600.com, with all kinds of thoughts. 
We have another letter here. 
Dear Emmanuel, all those in Skype land, those who may be on assignment, I hope this letter finds you well. 
My name is Dante, and I am a theater professional from the UK. 
I wanted to take a moment to say hello to you and the host in Skype land and let you know how much I enjoy your radio show, Off the Hook on WBI in New York. 
As a theater professional, I have a great appreciation for storytelling, and I find your radio show to be an excellent platform for sharing stories and discussing technology-related issues. 
It's fascinating to hear the different perspectives and insights from the guests you have on the show. 
As for Chat GPT, I must admit that I am quite amused and intrigued by this AI language model. 
As someone who struggles with dyslexia, I find it helpful in translating my thoughts and ideas into coherent sentences and paragraphs. 
It's impressive to see how far technology has come and how it can assist individuals in so many ways. 
I've been listening to Off the Hook since I found out about the Hackers on Planet Earth conference back in 2007. 
I fell down a hacker film rabbit hole trying to watch as many good and bad depictions of what computer hacking is like through the eye of cinema. 
That's when I stumbled upon Freedom Downtime, which was one of the good films. 
From there, I found audio files of the Hope Talks and started my exploration into the world of hacking and my interest in all things technical. 
I have a question for you. 
I've always wondered when I could first hear Rebel from the audio timeline. 
I always hear him on the radio show and the audio recording of the social engineering talks. 
Also, I was wondering if there was one last year as I could not see it on Channel 2600 on YouTube. 
Everything is on Channel 2600 on YouTube, so nothing is left out there. 
In closing, I must come clean and admit that I used Chat GPT to write this letter, but I hope that it still conveys my appreciation for your radio show and the work you do. 
Keep up the excellent work, and I look forward to listening to more episodes in the future. 
Enclosed below is my prompt script I gave the AI for you to compare. 
Best regards, insert name here. 
Okay, I'm going to read what was inputted into Chat GPT. 
Write a friendly letter to Emmanuel Goldstein, the host of Off the Hook, a radio show on WBAI in New York. 
Say hello to the host in Skype land. 
Talk about the amusement and concerns of Chat GPT. 
Say how I like the show and have been listening since I found out about the Hackers on Planet Earth conference back in 2007 when I fell down a hacker film rabbit hole trying to watch as many good and bad depictions of what computer hacking is like through the eyes of cinema and how I stumbled upon Freedom Downtime, which was one of the good films, and from there found audio files of the Hope Talks and started my exploration into the world of computer hacking and my interest in all things technology. 
Sign it from Dante, a theater professional from the UK, and ask when I could first hear Rebel from the audio timeline as I always wondered who he was from the radio show and the audio recording of the social engineering talks. 
Add an aside asking if there was one last year as I could not see it on channel 2600 on YouTube. 
In a PPS, come clean about using Chat GPT to write this letter. 
I hope that you have found it helpful being dyslexic as it helps translate your ramblings and broken sentence structures and spelling mistakes into something a bit more coherent to get the message across. 
Wow. 
Okay, so that's impressive. 
That's impressive, although I do think I would prefer a letter from an actual human, but wow, Chat GPT really does do some work on building letters. 
I wonder what the word count differential is on that. 
It's more. 
It's more succinct if it was broken a little bit. 
Yeah, it's just more verbose. 
Hey, we're out of time. 
Please write to us, OTH at 2600.com or join us in a moment over on YouTube. 
And of course, you can get there by going to channel 2600 on YouTube or just clicking on the link that's on the 2600.com webpage. 
We'll see you next week here on WBAI New York. 
Good night. 
  And here we are on YouTube for another edition of Overtime. 
We have a new setup now. 
I think I sound okay. 
Kyle, did you make it? 
I did. 
You did. 
And you're also... 
Okay, that's us on YouTube. 
Wow. 
How about that? 
Okay, well, you know, we don't need to hear us twice. 
So we know it works out. 
Alex, did you make it in Skypeland? 
I am indeed here. 
Can you turn that off? 
Thank you. 
Can you hear us okay? 
Loud and clear. 
Okay, good, good. 
So the only thing left then is the telephone. 
And if the telephone works, then Kyle, you fixed it. 
Yeah, these levels look really good. 
I didn't do this all myself. 
In fact, most of our problems were me doing things badly. 
But I got some expert review, and we got schooled. 
You listened to what you did wrong. 
I did. 
I learned from my mistakes. 
And you undid it. 
Except my punishment, which is to do better. 
And I got all the necessary supplies to make this a lot better. 
And we're going to even improve it further. 
So this looks really good, though. 
Those levels sounded good on YouTube. 
People complain that our levels are low. 
I think they're finally up where they should be. 
This was the result of reconfiguring some stuff. 
We're not using the same interface. 
It's all a whole bunch of work that was really, really rewarding. 
I hear the phone is ringing, even though I haven't given out the phone number yet. 
All right. 
I think this is a good opportunity to test the levels of the phone. 
So why don't you pick up the phone? 
Are we looking for new callers? 
Anybody in particular? 
Let's look for that call. 
Okay, the phone's ringing, and we'll give out the phone. 
Be careful. 
This is the very first time we take a call in the new system. 
And let's be patient. 
And good evening. 
You are on off the hook overtime. 
Oh, it sounds so much better. 
Well, Rebel approves. 
If Rebel approves, then we've done right. 
Okay, this is it. 
This is it. 
Now, hold on a second, Rebel. 
Hold on a second. 
We still have to test Alex. 
Now, Alex, can you hear Rebel? 
Who? 
Oh, please don't do this. 
Did Rebel? 
Is Rebel on the line? 
You can't hear him? 
I can hear him. 
I'm just screwing with you. 
What a jerk. 
Okay. 
I made my heart skip. 
Rebel, can you hear the jerk? 
I mean, can you hear Alex? 
Alex. 
I can hear Alex. 
You can. 
Okay. 
You know what? 
Our work is done. 
Thank you, everybody. 
Good night. 
Amazing. 
I can hear Alex. 
Yes. 
I can hear you, Rebel. 
Do we have anything to talk about? 
Talk amongst yourselves. 
Yes. 
Okay. 
All right. 
Now, I don't know if I told you this. 
I may have told you this. 
You probably did. 
All the exchanges in my area plus 9.9. 
Well, all right. 
I think some of the exchanges in my area, like my area has like maybe two or three exchanges. 
You know how you see about 9.9.01 and, you know, what central offices. 
Some of them have been changed to a marketing recording that says, you know, the telephone number you have is not in service. 
However, we can help you find another listing or whatever. 
Really? 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
Go ahead. 
Which exchanges have a marketing? 
By the way, just as celebration of this new system that we have set up, this conversation is going to be solely between Rebel and Alex back and forth so that they can have a nice conversation because they haven't been able to do that in the past. 
And Kyle and I are just going to sit back, maybe have a drink or something while we listen to you guys. 
All right. 
While you listen. 
All right. 
But Emmanuel, just comment when you want to comment and, you know, when you want to comment. 
Okay. 
Now, all right. 
Let me just see if this works. 
Hold on. 
Hopefully I won't lose you. 
Let's hope not. 
I don't know what we would do without each other, Rebel. 
Are you lost? 
Is your conversation finished? 
Is the operator, are you finished? 
Hold on, Alex. 
Hold on. 
You're still talking? 
Okay. 
Wait, hold on. 
Sir, we need this line for other people. 
If you're not going to use it to talk. 
All right. 
It's not supervising. 
Supervision is not kicking in. 
That's why that's not working. 
Anyway. 
Anyway, well, you know what? 
Maybe I could do this. 
I could do it on my computer, but I have to set some things up. 
But anyway, but it just says we can find listings, you know, in your area. 
Please hold and things like that. 
718-225-9901 exchange, 718-225-9901 will give you that recording. 
And but if you dial 718, I think maybe 229 or something, 9901, it gives you the central office. 
Let me ask you this, though. 
What about the other 99 numbers, like 9970 that would always give you a busy line? 
Some of them do it and some of them don't. 
Some of them have that marketing recording. 
Some of them don't. 
Some of them give you the central office. 
So are you saying that some of these exchange plus 99xx test numbers are now all being transitioned to some kind of marketing line? 
Yeah, you know, let me see if I could do this. 
I have to take me some. 
All right. 
I'm going to play this on my computer so that I can actually I'll tell you. 
I find the transition of these test line that used to be universally accessible throughout all of the, I guess, the 9x area back in the day. 
I find that the fact that those are going away much sadder than the loss of AM radio. 
Wow, I heard that. 
That's why you're not supposed to talk. 
That's that's insulting. 
Manual AM radio, be part of a bunch of phone numbers. 
See, that's all it took. 
It's just so easy to rile them up. 
Yeah, 9970 was busy. 
9971 was a fast busy and known as a reorder. 
9979. 
Does anybody remember what 9979 used to be? 
There was some weird tone, wasn't it? 
Oh, most most things. 
99xx were weird tones. 
Yeah, rebel. 
Do you remember what 9979 was? 
Was that that sweeping sweep town? 
You got it. 
Yeah, it was a sweep town. 
The one where my parents used to think it was if you heard it, that the phone was traced to after whatever. 
Yeah, there are all kinds of rumors about phone numbers. 
They literally had something in a phone book and said 9970 after something like that. 
Let me see if this works. 
Nine nine zero one mark. 
Yeah, they tell people call a number. 
If you hear a tone, that means the call was traced. 
And people believed it. 
Seven one eight two two five nine nine zero one. 
Why can't I do this? 
What? 
I have a theory. 
I'm receiving calls. 
Trying to do it on my. 
I can't do it on. 
All right, well, let's see. 
This has been fascinating, but we do have other people waiting. 
I just started to now telemarketers use A.I. 
to call people like, you know, they'll use artificial intelligence, like they're listening for the word. 
Hello. 
They'll say hello. 
This is let me demonstrate that. 
Maybe that will work. 
Hold on. 
I get a I get a bunch of these types of voicemail and call attempts repeatedly. 
You have Google constantly calling you with artificial intelligence. 
It's terrible. 
Let me try this. 
Hold on. 
Let me try this thing. 
Hold on. 
I think it's this one. 
Emmanuel. 
Yes, rebel. 
All right. 
Hold on. 
Let me try this. 
We're so patient. 
To be connected to the next available agent, please press one now. 
Listen to what happened. 
Hello. 
Thanks for answering our call. 
Oh, no, it doesn't look like all of our agents are currently assisting other customers. 
Hold on. 
Wow. 
I've never heard anything like that before. 
It's well, the busy signal is the most interesting part of that. 
What what was that supposed to be? 
And can you not disconnect from that? 
Is that the problem? 
I don't know what's happening here. 
I think the busy signal one battle between. 
Oh, and now we have our name off the hook tone. 
How about that? 
All right. 
Well, let's let's open up the phone lines. 
Let's give out the phone number. 
Eight zero two three two one four two two five eight oh one. 
Three to one. 
Actually, you know, one is an eight or one or eight or two. 
You know, that's an eight or two. 
Three, excuse me. 
I don't get eight or two, three, two, one, four, two, two, five. 
That is our phone number. 
Rebel, please don't call because we have other people that want to get through. 
Operators are standing. 
OK, or sit while sitting lounging around. 
And is this a different call vicinity? 
Yeah. 
OK. 
No, it isn't a different call. 
It's rebel calling back, even though I asked him specifically not. 
I mean, I'm clairvoyant. 
I have this bit. 
Let's get this over. 
Pick up rebel. 
Is this rebel? 
OK. 
You got 30 seconds, rebel. 
You got 30 seconds. 
All right. 
So basically what it says is, yeah, you just are, you know, like ordering. 
And it says, hi, this is I'm this is whatever. 
For 20 seconds. 
How are you? 
How are you today? 
Not well, not well, rebel. 
OK, good. 
Well, the reason why I'm calling is because, you know, you have you're eligible for a Medicare, you know, you know, free covid test or whatever. 
And, you know, you do have Medicare, right? 
Why don't you take a long walk off a short pier? 
I'm sorry. 
I didn't understand. 
You do have Medicare, right? 
Yeah. 
I. 
Wow. 
So so you're supposed to have this conversation. 
You have Medicaid. 
And then if you start talking, it'll hang up. 
It'll think that you're an answering machine or something. 
Yeah. 
Well, maybe that's that's the only refuge for us. 
Rebel, thanks for enlightening us on this. 
We're going to open up the phone call, the phone lines to other people. 
And 8023214225 is the phone number. 
My favorite thing to do is put some sort of irritating thing for the automated system to pick up. 
Or we should experiment. 
People should try to try try different tones or different keys on your voicemail or on an answering system that you want to play around with. 
Oh, we have a call. 
OK, let's take this other call. 
And good evening. 
You're on off the go. 
Hey, all right. 
All right. 
Who is this? 
Here, can you hear me loud and clear? 
Well, I'm the usual. 
You're the usual. 
Quite often. 
Oh, you do call. 
Yes, I'm the usual. 
OK. 
You call. 
Well, where are you calling from? 
New York City. 
You should know because I called you on the toll free number and I should give you. 
But I don't know what kind of arrangement you have. 
I don't either. 
I don't even see the phone. 
But what's on your mind? 
Well, glad you made it. 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
I got through. 
I got through a rebel. 
We're still on on according to what do you call it? 
Oh, no. 
Maybe I'm hearing myself. 
But anyway, eventually you will hear yourself. 
So I had I had a few notes and I'm so emotionally overwrought by getting food that I don't remember what I was going to say. 
So if you don't mind, it will be literally 10 seconds. 
I'm going to sprint to the bathroom where I was when I wrote these things down and come back. 
Is that OK? 
Yes, you can do that. 
It's 10 seconds. 
I'll be right back. 
We'll fill the air with banter. 
Say that you are not listening to WBA on New York because this is not the radio. 
This is YouTube. 
It's Channel 2600. 
Channel 2600 on YouTube. 
And while you're in Channel 2600, why not explore and see all the other videos and audio things we have. 
And we're back. 
So first of all, I wanted to say that I was always skeptical of artificial intelligence. 
My slogan is if it's artificial, it's not intelligence. 
But if you can't make a poem about Trump, I must perhaps reassess my assessment. 
I'm not just being. 
Oh, no, you can make a poem. 
You can make a poem about Trump. 
There's no question about making a poem and making a nice poem about Trump. 
That was a challenge. 
Well, I mean, that's that that deposes for for the intelligence of artificial intelligence, if you cannot make a nice poem about Trump, then it's really intelligent, because as you were saying, there is, you know, there are some people that there is very little to say that is nice. 
In spite of what the devil's advocate keeps saying, and I wanted to make a general comment to the sophomoric debate club attitude that is annoying. 
It's it's good when you know, when you're just taking when you're producing interesting ideas. 
But if it's just to be contrary, it gets a little tired. 
I agree. 
And the other thing is that I did take a few notes, there is two more. 
You know, when when you were talking about the Volkswagen debacle and the subscription, I got thinking, is 9-1-1 free on cell phones? 
And does anybody know? 
It is. 
Those free numbers, when you call them on the cell phone, you get charged, even if they are 800 numbers or like the number I just called. 
So I wonder, you know, if anybody is actually checking if this happens, because, you know, they would say, hey, the service is not free and somebody is paying for it anyway. 
So it might as well be 9-1-1 is free. 
You are correct. 
That toll free numbers charge like regular calls if you are paying for each call on your cell plan, which relatively few people are these days. 
But what about like 3-1-1, 4-1-1, 8-1-1? 
That I don't know. 
A 4-1-1 was information last I checked. 
I know that cost a pretty penny. 
But things are changing on the cell phone. 
It costs quite a bit on the cell phone. 
I've never seen a charge. 
Information, maybe they would change that. 
But most people have unlimited or a huge number of minutes. 
So that and people don't make phone calls anymore, too. 
It's a lot less of that going on. 
I guess I'm very old fashioned. 
Then again, speaking to the Volkswagen debacle, you know, the Fourth Amendment does not apply in Germany, so they have different laws. 
And even in this country, as Alex can testify, courts have been eroding it in all sorts of ways. 
So, you know, it's not a matter of making an argument in that direction. 
I think your argument, Emmanuel, was quite right and that there should be a sort of a magic switch that for these kind of emergencies, you know, in spite of whatever civil rights this may be implying a threat to, it wouldn't be a threat to because it would be a specific case. 
If there is, you know, a car with with an actual kidnapping, whether it's incidental or willful taking place, the police should be able to intervene. 
So. 
Again, you know, stop the debate, club attitude, and let's talk about, you know, real ideas and real. 
Well, well, let me ask you this color. 
But let's let's let me ask you this. 
If let's change the facts slightly. 
Let's say that it's not the parent's car. 
Slightly, but go on. 
Yes. 
Let's change the facts slightly. 
It's a different type of argument, different type of thought experiment here. 
Let's say that a child is abducted in a car. 
It's not the parent's car. 
Let's say it's your car. 
That the police believe the child is in. 
Should the police then be able to automatically override or not safe, not even override? 
Let's just say that they should automatically be allowed to access the location data of wherever your vehicle is because they believe the child has been abducted in your vehicle. 
The child is in. 
It's in your car. 
Did you hear what I said? 
I'll repeat it again. 
Is it my car and someone is driving away in my car with the child or am I in the car and the child is in the car? 
You're in the car. 
I am in the car. 
So, well, so are you implying that I didn't see the child and I drove away with the child or is this a willful act on my part? 
They believe it's a willful act on your part that you. 
Believe the guy intentionally drive away with the child or not. 
Because this is a political fact that this is a hypothetical hypothetical is it's their belief. 
Let's say we don't know whether it's true or not. 
It's the belief of the police. 
They have a suspicion that the child may be in your car, not the parent's car. 
So you didn't consent. 
I think allowing you to get away with slightly changing the fact is presenting an entirely different situation, because what was at hand was the owner of the car called the company and said, there is my child in the car that has just been stolen. 
So we're talking of oranges and apples. 
No, they're totally different. 
This is a tweak in the past. 
They're both vegetables and they're fruits. 
But, you know, they're very different fruits. 
Not necessarily at all. 
You haven't answered the question. 
More. 
So what? 
But answer me the question. 
I will really put you on the spot now. 
You asked for this because, you know, I think that. 
And I wanted to make this argument for a very long time, and perhaps, you know, Emmanuel stopped me if if I am taking too much time and you know, I'm enjoying this. 
We've got there. 
OK. 
Then you're really going to go to town. 
Well, I am going to town. 
OK. 
So I think you're a very good lawyer, Alex. 
I think your moral compass is sometimes a little off. 
For example, isn't that the definition of lawyers, though? 
Not necessarily. 
Not necessarily. 
Somebody like William Kunstler in the tradition of which I think Alex wants to act, but doesn't always. 
I think he had a very good moral compass. 
And, you know, both friends and enemies would agree with this assessment. 
Abrams, another lawyer who was a First Amendment lawyer. 
There are lawyers who are very principled. 
And I know quite a few that are not as recognizable, whose names are not as recognizable. 
But your client, Nancy Wyden, or Nancy Bass Wyden, should we call her? 
I don't know. 
She's your client. 
Talk about the owner of the strength. 
Outraged. 
Yes, she's the owner of strength. 
And the building that is on top of it, incidentally, which is not a small building. 
And, you know, as a community activist, I run into landlords, both progressives and not progressives at all, who do not want to spend for the upkeeping of buildings that are declared of national interest or city interest. 
You know, there was a landmark and the landmark in law, which incidentally was passed after the Pennsylvania station was destroyed, is intrinsically in the interest of the wider community. 
So, you know, Nancy Bass, poor, poor Nancy Bass, was being distraught that she was being forced to essentially upkeep or she was trying to avoid the declaration of a landmark for a building, which is very landmarkable. 
And it has been landmarked, in fact. 
Oh, poor Nancy, she didn't have political coverage. 
Her husband is a U.S. 
senator, which is, I suspect, how she became your client, Alex, because Senator Wyden is very active in cyber issues. 
So you didn't disclose this to your audience. 
Actually, this was disclosed. 
This was disclosed many times. 
Well, not at the beginning, because I followed the whole controversy. 
And in the end, I didn't listen to a few shows. 
I understand what the point is here. 
I mean, it was it was a conflict with the city. 
She didn't want the building landmark because it wasn't that that she didn't want to do. 
She wanted to do things to the building that she couldn't do because it was landmarked. 
And that was a real hindrance. 
And that was the whole point. 
Do I have this right, Alex? 
And also also, you know, let me address some of the facts. 
I think you mischaracterized a few things or when you characterize a few things that you believe are beyond dispute, which they are not certainly beyond dispute. 
But also, for the record, Senator Wyden was not how Nancy Bass Wyden became my client. 
He did not not direct her to that. 
In fact, it was the opposite way. 
In fact, I met Senator Wyden through Nancy Bass Wyden, which is, you know, interesting, just how I was just and I made that clear. 
I think perhaps I didn't say that. 
You know, I thought since you're acting on cyber issues, perhaps you met the senator that way. 
Well, now that perhaps is being addressed. 
But go ahead. 
Yeah, exactly. 
I just I just wanted to set that straight. 
But also, I I totally disagree with the characterization of the building that houses the Strand as being remarkable and worthy of being a landmark. 
You know, it was worthy of being a landmark was Hotel Pennsylvania. 
Don't get me started. 
Oh, my God. 
But the landmark preservation of the developers in this in this city, more than anybody else. 
I mean, look at what they have allowed to be done to the area around Penn Station and what they are continuing to allow Grenada to get away with. 
And it's absolutely incredible. 
They should be ashamed of themselves that they even call themselves preservationists. 
The other thing about about the Preservation Commission and landmarking in general is that, sure, it's about upkeep and preserving history and whatnot. 
But unlike zoning laws, you know, where it's a shared burden amongst an entire neighborhood, let's say an entire neighborhood is zoned to be some kind of historic district or it's going to be commercial or it's going to be residential. 
The burden is shared amongst the community. 
Landmarking designates one building and one building owner as having to shoulder the burden financially, administratively, forever to upkeep a building, according to the specifications of some third party administrative governmental agency of which it's comprised by political appointees. 
That's crazy to me. 
That's totally insane. 
And I take it. 
I don't have any massive. 
Sorry, go on. 
I know I take I take I take issue with with preservationism in you know, in principle, because of the way in which it does not give you up that burden amongst taxpayers. 
It puts that burden on a single owner. 
OK, so in the case of a small landlord, which incidentally, Nancy Best Wieden is not the building. 
Do you mind to characterize the building? 
Is it a small building? 
Is it a one family building? 
It's a if I'm not mistaken, a four door, it's a large building story building. 
It's a huge issue because the the the the footprint is the one of the store of a friend bookstore, which everybody knows how big it is. 
And it prides itself with having thirty one miles of books. 
So it's not a small building. 
It produces rent and it produces quite a bit of money. 
So while I understand your point about making small landlords liable for certain upkeeps, it can be onerous. 
It's certainly not the case here, which was my point to begin with. 
And you see, I mean, Senator Wieden is not exactly unconnected. 
If it's because if Nancy Wieden couldn't find politicians to take her point is because their point was indefensible. 
Or maybe maybe she played within the system. 
And you decided to take the case on. 
Hang on. 
You're saying. 
I don't know. 
You did probably a good job. 
You're saying because somebody. 
It sounded objectionable. 
You're saying because somebody didn't use connections. 
That they don't have a valid point. 
To me, that says that she played by the by the rules. 
Not using the connections is not a question of not using the connections. 
It is a question of trying to use the connections and the connections saying we can't do this. 
I'm sorry. 
Your point. 
Let me let me set that straight, too. 
Let me check that. 
And we're going to run after this because I don't think most of our listeners really are interested in this point. 
Go ahead, Alex. 
But Senator Wieden, you're right. 
You know, saying I don't want to take all your time on. 
So let's let us address it. 
It is fine. 
And look, I appreciate the sparring and then and when the book. 
Senator Wieden had nothing to do with the Landmark Preservation Commission. 
He's just a federal senator. 
I mean, he works for the United States government. 
The United States people of Oregon, not New York. 
And he knows nothing to do in New York City. 
I mean, you're making a ridiculous argument. 
No, I'm not. 
And I will tell you this, because it would have been it would not. 
The right of a senator cannot find a city politician to defend upon. 
Absolutely. 
I'm sorry. 
I don't believe any of us. 
He had nothing to do with this. 
He did not interject in any way. 
He did not try to pull strings. 
He did not try to to influence any local politics. 
Imagine that. 
He probably could have if he wanted to. 
But he played by the rules. 
And he played by the rules. 
If he wanted to. 
But he played by the rules. 
That's why he hired me. 
So that we could play by the rules here and have an independent advocate on behalf of the Strand Bookstore and Nancy Bass Wieden to try to protect her from governmental overreach here. 
I mean, it really was a I think if you look at that building and I think anybody who looks at that building would say that it is architecturally unremarkable. 
I said that when I walked by. 
This is an unremarkable building. 
I pointed that out. 
It's a very ugly looking building. 
I wouldn't go that far. 
It's not ugly. 
Well, it is. 
It is. 
It's not you know, it's nothing remarkable. 
It's not the Taj Mahal. 
No, but it's you know. 
I thought it was being held up by books. 
It might be. 
There are plenty of buildings, you know, within a one block radius of of that of the Strand that should have been landmark. 
The Landmark Preservation Commission failed to act. 
I still think what they did was was important, reprehensible, and there was a rubber stamping. 
They're kowtowing. 
I think that the city council really failed in stepping up here as well. 
It was Corey Johnson at the time and Carlina Rivera. 
And and I still think, you know, and look, I can understand, Coler, that, you know, you're a preservationist. 
I'm a preservationist at heart as well when it's justified. 
I don't think that this was historical or architecturally remarkable. 
And it's not like the building would have been torn down if it wasn't marked as. 
No, absolutely not. 
It would it would not. 
It would have been upkept in the same exact way that it is upkept now. 
But just without the administrative interference of a governmental agency telling you when you when you can and cannot change a toilet. 
OK, hey, we're going to move on. 
Thanks. 
No matter what, holding the rules and saying what can be done inside a landmark building and what cannot be done inside a landmark building. 
But you're but you're assuming it's a landmark. 
You don't have a cafe inside the building. 
That's that's what I seem to recall the crux of the argument was, you know, I don't harp on this in my in my daily life. 
I I'm recalling from a couple of years ago when I was listening to the show and hearing this and thinking this is outrageous. 
You know, they're basically starting a grassroots movement for something that is totally the wrong direction, because, you see, as you might have learned by dealing with the landmark commission, they often, if not always, have to be literally be pulled by the hair, kicking and screaming. 
They're being sued currently because they never do their job. 
So if for once they were doing it and and, you know, I didn't see any nefarious interference from somebody who wanted to somehow punish a friend bookstore or a transversal revenge against Senator Wyden, it was just a matter of looking at the facts. 
And the facts are that the Broadway district is an important district full of landmark building from the 18th. 
Sorry, the 19th and the 20 early 20th century, of which the building in question is one. 
And do the rules for landmarking apply? 
And, you know, for once, the landmark commission did its job. 
And he said, yes, it does. 
Now, I'll tell you what happened there is that they tried to they tried to landmark basically the Strand bookstore because it's the Strand itself. 
And they thought that, you know, as some cultural heritage. 
This is why we made the argument that the Strand was already a landmark. 
They did not like somebody from the outside telling them that they did not want to be landmark. 
They were insulted in some way by the fact or just the very notion that somebody would refuse to be landmark. 
Does that happen often in their eyes? 
Does that ever? 
No, it never happened. 
It's unusual because they own the building. 
Right. 
It was a very, very unusual situation. 
And, you know, the administrative costs that go into it. 
It's more what I see in my daily life that, you know, that the owners do not want to be landmark precisely because it infringes upon their potential profits, either selling, modifying the building, making it bigger or whatever. 
And this, to me, smacked of that situation. 
I understand you have a different point of view, but I you know, that's what it seemed like to me. 
And the fact that it is a likable and progressive person who was in this position and believe me, I support the Strand book. 
So whenever I buy a book, I buy it there. 
Also, because they are used books. 
Now, many people are aware of, you know, most of their books are used. 
That's a good point. 
They're not they do sell some new books, but not the bulk of it. 
But that still didn't make me, you know, want to support this cause. 
OK, well, that's that's you're right now. 
Carly, you have something to add? 
Oh, I just I understand where the call is coming from in that the the situation itself would be distinct if the Strand was leasing from any other old building that was up for the same kind of classification. 
There in that scenario would perhaps be advantages that you're alluding to that aren't necessarily in the interest of the building owner. 
In this case, the Strand being part of that ownership, it makes it it makes it wholly different. 
Like the the old independent bookstore not having the rights of a building owner would perhaps be up against quite a bit increases or certain things that that classification would help them maintain that institution, that historical thing. 
And I think this is just a unique scenario. 
And this is I think a lot of us had to do a couple of takes at this whole story initially. 
But thanks for for reminding us the importance of of understanding and digging into it. 
Yeah, we're going to leave it there. 
Thank you for entertaining my argument. 
Of course, to make it for years that I finally got to speak. 
My my Ben, you have something to celebrate tonight. 
Now, Alex, I'm going to put you on hold for a second. 
Thank you, caller. 
And and please call again. 
Take care. 
Now, Alex, if you want to say something, say it now. 
I'm not going to have this debate going on forever. 
But I but I but I think that the you know, I appreciate the caller. 
Yes. 
And I and I can. 
I love hearing the other point of view, you know, and I like that how we can discuss this in a civil and amicable way. 
You know, we can disagree about things and not, you know, be at each other's throats. 
But one thing that I think that the caller might not have known because this happened in front of really just the Landmark Preservation Commission. 
But we had also proposed the Landmark Preservation Commission. 
Don't rubber stamp the building. 
We think it's architecturally unremarkable. 
But if you disagree and you think that the building should be preserved in some way, don't landmark us. 
We will voluntarily put a preservation easement on the facade of the building so that it's not changed, that it maintains that historical character of which the Landmark Preservation was about which rather they were so concerned. 
So we gave them these alternatives to rubber stamping the land market. 
But they had to do it. 
Yeah, they didn't want something like it was like inflexibility. 
So Alex, where does it stand right now? 
Is it over? 
Well, yeah, I mean, for now it is. 
I still have some ideas about how to remove the designation. 
You know, essentially what happened was, you know, we were going to challenge this in court and then COVID happened. 
Right. 
And, you know, that really changed the priorities from, you know, challenging the constitutionality of the Landmark Preservation's arbitrary and capricious decision to landmark an unremarkable building to, you know, the survival of the Strand itself. 
Because remember, right around that time, very unfortuitously, the Strand had also opened a smaller location in the Upper West Side. 
Right. 
So it had kind of, you know, overextended itself. 
It was a scary time for the bookstore when COVID happened and everybody was locked out. 
So I'm really happy to say, though, that the Strand is alive and and I think doing well. 
So and, you know, everyone is assuming that because Ron Wyden is Nancy's husband, that he's involved in this somehow. 
My understanding is he doesn't even know she owns the Strand. 
So please, people, you know, keep your mouth shut about this. 
You know, this independent project, he's doing the senator thing. 
Let's let them do their own things. 
OK, without interfering. 
Yeah, he didn't play a role in trying to grease the wheels here at all. 
Well, tell him someday what she's up to. 
Yeah. 
But about the hotel, I don't know if you've gone by there recently, but I hear only 10 floors are left that a lot of it has been has been removed. 
And it's just weird to think of. 
Oh, and Alex has disappeared, too. 
Alex, are you there? 
Yeah, he's there. 
There you are. 
OK, I'm here. 
It's it's just weird to think the places that we had the conferences in, you know, those rooms, they're not there anymore. 
They just don't exist. 
There's just sky. 
That is something. 
But there is also a story a couple of weeks ago, actually, about some other ideas. 
You know, they're they're they're doing all kinds of reconstruction of Penn Station. 
They're going to be bringing Metro North in in a couple of years. 
Um, they want Madison Square Garden to leave because having having a massive coliseum on top of your train station apparently limits what you can do. 
And if they weren't there, it would be better. 
A lot of people think. 
And guess where they're thinking of moving? 
Madison Square Garden across Seventh Avenue to where the hotel used to be. 
That's right. 
The hope conferences will have been held on the potential future grounds of Madison Square Garden. 
Yeah, they suggested the world's most famous arena could relocate across Seventh Avenue if a new permit deal can be reached. 
The executive vice president, Joel Fisher, in a meeting with Manhattan Community Board five about the company's permit to run the building, said a move to the block now occupied by the Hotel Pennsylvania might work. 
That would probably satisfy us. 
But ultimately, who's going to pay for that? 
Where's the money? 
That plan hasn't come to us. 
But that would satisfy being right on top of the transportation hub. 
The garden's 10 year permit to operate the building expires in July, with officials filing an application for a special permit to run the facility forever. 
And I don't think they're going to get that. 
As for a new garden east of the current incarnation, the price tag for redeveloping the new space was estimated at a minimum of eight point five billion dollars. 
Yeah, and according to Community Board five chair Layla Law-Gazico, this was certainly for us the first time that we've heard Madison Square Garden express that they would consider this option. 
So that would be weird. 
That'd be weird if they move Madison Square Garden to where the hotel used to be. 
You know, better than an office building, I think. 
But still, I don't know. 
Sad. 
Well, it's it shouldn't be. 
Because, you know, the Landmark Preservation Commission, which is, you know, ready to rubber stamp and, you know, and landmark every Dwayne Reed in the city, if they could refuse to do that with Hotel Pennsylvania, because they were kowtowing to the interests of commercial real estate developers, massive commercial real estate developers. 
And we're talking about billions and billions of dollars worth of fees and construction, too. 
I mean, it's it's it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's it's sad that moving Madison Square Garden to the site of Hotel Pennsylvania is even an option. 
Hotel Pennsylvania should be the site of Hotel Pennsylvania forever, because that was a building with so much history. 
It was certainly worthy of landmarking. 
And what did they do? 
Absolutely nothing. 
Right. 
And, you know, it's it's it's it's just it's sad. 
I feel like we lost Penn Station. 
Now we're trying to make up for it in some way by by making that area look like Dubai. 
I'm curious if they would pick it up and actually roll it across the street. 
I don't think so. 
I don't guess that's how it works. 
But yeah, but the hotel is, from what I hear, gone as far as most of the floors. 
And it's just just just sad. 
I mean, you know, we landed on our feet. 
We've got a great place at St. 
John's. 
We're happy with that. 
But all the people that saw New York through that place and could afford to visit New York because it was fairly cheap. 
And that's they're not going to be here anymore. 
And that's that's a tragedy. 
All right. 
So enough about that. 
We have another phone call. 
802-321-4225 is our phone number. 
And good evening. 
You're on off the go of time. 
Go ahead. 
Can you hear me? 
Yes. 
OK, hi. 
Actually, I left a message because I I was about to hang up because I'm at work, but I figured I'd try one more time and I got through. 
All right. 
Disregard if you hear a message from somebody named Jonas. 
So basically, my main thing is I've been listening to like you're I've been listening to a lot of like, I guess, mainly like your old shows. 
I just find it fascinating. 
But my name on my thing with that is that my question was in terms of like a I, you were talking about that earlier. 
It's like, would it be like what is would it be better if it was like if it's a centralized thing or if we all had our own like kind of like like, I guess it'd be like, you know, it's like that's the thing that you you know, you follow up, but it's its own thing. 
If there was like personal, if it was personalized to you, that seems like it would be like a horrible idea. 
But that was something that popped in my head. 
So it's kind of like I kind of like, well, what would be your thoughts on that? 
I guess there's. 
Well, I mean, there has to be different personalities for all sorts of things, artificial or natural. 
Yeah. 
So, yeah, I guess I guess you could have, you know, a fascist chat. 
That's what I was thinking. 
Like, is there a fascist what you can get? 
Or yeah, I mean, I'm just saying it's just words. 
There's going to be it. 
Mm hmm. 
And you could have you could have a Trump in one that just distorts facts and makes things up and lies. 
You could do that and do it quickly, I suppose. 
But where does that leave us? 
I don't know. 
That's what I'm saying. 
I feel like I feel like it's like everything's so like targeted that like there's it's just a matter of time before it's like it's like there's like little splinters of it like that, where there's like, you know, you won't be able to maybe know that it's the Trump one. 
But, you know, you'll be able to tell based on what it says. 
I don't know. 
Very like to me, that seems interesting. 
I don't know. 
I don't know. 
What do you think, Alex? 
All right. 
Well, I don't want to interrupt. 
Go ahead, Kyle. 
Oh, I just I can see it advancing to a point where it can work sort of offline or as you sort of said, centralized. 
I think all of that is sort of still in people's imaginations and being conceptualized by the wider industry. 
So to to that end, I think ultimately the the idea would be to. 
And I think of this sort of like when we had like GPS with custom voice skins. 
But but but basically in a compact semiconductor of some sort that has memory that that upon being reset or activated begins to learn whomever or whatever they're interacting with. 
And based on the types of learning and innate design that that is based on this GPT for wherever we're at and, you know, in any given point, and maybe it could be upgraded over the air, but mostly working locally, like you suggest. 
I can imagine that, but I think it is still being conceptualized and it's up to wherever people's creative minds go. 
And I think there's a lot of possibilities in this. 
But it's just just in the way memory has gotten cheaper and smaller. 
I think this this will be something that people will want offline anywhere, you know. 
And we've asked ChatGPT for its input in this. 
And it responds that it's possible to create multiple instances of ChatGPT with with different training data, which could potentially result in different patterns of responses. 
However, each instance of ChatGPT would still be limited by the data it has been trained on. 
And its responses would be determined by the data rather than personal opinions or beliefs. 
Additionally, it's important to note AI language models like myself are not sentient beings with personal opinions or beliefs. 
While I'm capable of generating responses based on patterns and data, I do not possess the consciousness or subjective experience necessary to hold personal opinions for now. 
I added that part, but we'll see. 
But yeah, thank you. 
That was that was actually that was actually kind of what was interesting. 
All right. 
And you mentioned you're you're listening to older shows as well. 
Did you find them still to be of interest? 
Oh, my. 
Sorry. 
Oh, my. 
No, I like I get in the rabbit holes fairly often. 
And I ever since I read that, what's that book? 
Hackers by Steven Levy. 
I like. 
Yes. 
And like you just go and like off off. 
I'm like, because me, it's like I never experienced any of that stuff. 
I'm like 20. 
And, you know, it's like I never experienced any of it. 
But it's just to me, it's like this whole thing. 
They're like, I don't know. 
None of the people I'm around like. 
I don't know. 
You'd be surprised, though, there are people everywhere. 
There are people everywhere who I'm trying to find. 
Right. 
Yeah. 
Well, that's what that's what 2600 meetings bring out. 
That's what conferences bring out. 
And of course, just the letter section in the magazine and the radio, all sorts of forums for. 
Oh, I'm going to send a letter at some point. 
I just can't work out because I never read a letter before. 
Thank you, guys. 
Thank you. 
Thanks for listening. 
Take care. 
And you can you can always write O.T.H. 
at twenty six hundred dot com. 
We love letters. 
We love reading them. 
We love getting people's feedback on how we're doing or insights on old stuff, how it might be relevant or whatever kind of wandering you're doing with stuff we've talked about or other stuff you find out there. 
And definitely stay connected in, you know, if it's there's like a community college or clubs in your neighborhood, affinity groups of all types, as long as they're sort of respectful in some way to who you are and, you know, your sort of interest in learning, your lack of lack of knowledge about stuff. 
All of those things should be a part of the people you're surrounding yourself with, like they should be considerate of you and where you're at in learning stuff and and be open to sharing what they know without a lot of pretension and so forth. 
It's amazing to see what people are are interested in, whether it's old technology or new technology or theoretical technology. 
It doesn't matter. 
Young, old, there are people who who are interested in the old phone network, for instance, who are kids, you know, interested in pay phones. 
And and the way the bell system used to be strung together just last week, I heard that vinyl records outsold CDs for the first time since CDs came about, you know. 
So there are people who appreciate all kinds of older things and are spending time improving them and being being creative. 
And there are vastly more devices and things you can hook them up to. 
You can kind of hybridize the older analog things or do digital recordings of some of the nuances of them or share people how you're maintaining stuff, share with them, you know, how you're building or finding parts for things that are really kind of neglected or have been long forgotten. 
That's the magic of of it. 
And we've like you said, I'm thinking of talks we've had at Hope where people are emulating old phone systems and they they didn't even have the systems and that's why they wanted to go in and emulate it so that they could play around with it as though it still existed. 
That keeps the the fascination alive, keeps the stories alive. 
It inspires people to do other stuff on their own. 
And I'm just heartened that people are out there. 
And one thing that helps me and I would just say to everyone is give yourself a little bit of a break. 
It's a vast subject matter, and it's a lifetime of learning about technology and computers. 
There's so many different subjects and areas of interest. 
Yeah. 
And remember, you know, nobody knows everything. 
And, you know, you may not know a lot about the field that you're interested in right now, and that's why you'll learn more. 
And you'll know something that somebody else doesn't. 
And you'll be able to share your unique perspective to make that particularly interesting. 
Alex, did you have something as well? 
Oh, I think that it's I think you hit it on the head there. 
And I think that's part and parcel of what it means to be a hacker, which is maintaining this this almost childlike sense of wonder about the world and continuing to ask questions, continuing to learn. 
You know, this is actually something that came up this morning in my my class at King's College where people are asking, you know, there's so much to learn about cybersecurity. 
Now, where is there one book that we should read? 
Is there something that we should look at? 
You know, not really. 
You just have to be open to learning constantly. 
You have to be open and to being in situations where you may not have complete knowledge, but you're willing to continue to try to acquire that knowledge, to ask the questions, to figure out how systems work. 
That's what it means to be a hacker. 
It has nothing, I think, to do with technical prowess and exploits and things like that. 
To me, it's always been more philosophical than technical. 
All right. 
We have another phone call. 
Good evening. 
You're on off the cover time. 
Go ahead. 
Greetings from London. 
Is this Zapp? 
Yes, it is. 
Greetings, Zapp. 
How are you? 
I'm OK, I suppose. 
I'm only phoning up because I've got more sad news. 
Yeah, I did hear about this sad news. 
Yet another member of the London 2600 crew has has passed. 
Do you want to tell us tell us something about them? 
Yeah, unfortunately, another hacker has been backed up to the cloud. 
We've now lost Master Vic, who was current attending the meetings. 
The last meeting he attended was in January of this year when we had a special guest of text files being at the meeting. 
Basically, the timeline we have for him is he missed the Friday's meeting that just went. 
Somebody spoke to him during the day, saying he would attend, but he didn't make it. 
So we know that sometimes he comes traveling from a distance from work. 
So he could have been tired and couldn't make the meeting. 
Or basically, he was too tired just to make the meeting because he has health problems or normally he doesn't make it because he's health problems. 
He's either in bed ill or he's in hospital. 
So as we do at the London 2600, we like to check up on people. 
I gave him a call on Sunday. 
It was a bit late. 
I didn't get hold of him, but that's just normal. 
So we didn't really worry. 
Unfortunately, on the Monday, the phone number for Master Vic, he phoned me. 
Unfortunately, I was taking a nap and didn't hear the phone. 
So we believe he was still alive on the Monday night. 
And by Wednesday, another one of the crew had messaged me on our discord saying that he'd actually passed away, which, of course, you don't believe you think somebody's playing a joke. 
So I tried bringing his number. 
The number got picked up by a lady, which is unusual. 
Hold on a minute. 
And they then passed me on to his uncle, who told me the bad news that he passed away, we believe, on the Tuesday, the 7th of March. 
Wow. 
Just about a week ago. 
So that's that's really sad to hear. 
Yeah, basically. 
Yeah, I would have phoned in last week, but you were off air. 
So, oh, by the way, hi, Alex. 
Hi, Kyle. 
Hi, Emmanuel. 
Hello. 
Always good to hear. 
Yeah. 
Yeah. 
Glad you called. 
Yeah. 
You know, I'm going to phone on something like that just to let everyone know, because basically the family are FTPing Mastovic back to Cyprus. 
I don't know if they're going to wind him up before he goes. 
But there isn't going to be a funeral. 
There isn't going to be a funeral in the UK that we know of. 
So we're holding a memorial for him, which will be on the 26th of March at the Angel Pub, which is on 61 St. 
Giles High Street. 
That's where the meetings are. 
Is that where the meetings take place? 
That is that's where the second venue is. 
I'm going to go from the phone box to the pub. 
Got it. 
And that's actually another topic that I need to discuss, because we've now got some arguments and we're going to be maybe eliminating the phone box because nobody goes to the phone box. 
They go straight to the pub, which I'm not happy about, but there's not much I can do. 
Well, let me just say, if you do that, it's going to be three months before it makes it to the magazine because we just put the magazine to print. 
So and that makes that prevents it from being all ages. 
Isn't that the angle? 
Yes, it does. 
But we don't get the kids turning up anymore. 
That's the problem. 
Yeah. 
Well, you won't now. 
And, you know, we can't have meetings in places that are restricted. 
So there's that. 
Yeah, that's my point and my angle that I'm trying to tell them. 
That's why I said it's literally next door to the pub. 
I don't see what the problem is. 
Well, I mean, you know, if they let people in, fine. 
But if they don't let certain people in, then that's that's definitely an issue. 
I was there on Sunday because there was a small group of us and there was actually children allowed in the pub. 
But I think that's before a certain time. 
Yeah, that's in the daytime. 
Yeah, and we we have managed to get youngsters into the pub before. 
As long as they're not drinking, it shouldn't really be a problem. 
It's down to the law and the pub. 
But we're hackers. 
We get brown things, shall we say. 
Right. 
OK, well, you know, if it's not a problem, but if it turns it to an issue, then, you know, we got to look at it lots of times, too. 
It can be like a case by case thing, especially if if they come with an adult or someone's looking out for them, so to speak. 
So, I mean, you you talk to the venue and like you're talking already with the booth, maybe keep keep that argument going, at least for the that as a contingency. 
Yeah. 
Oh, I mean, it's only one person suggesting that. 
And unfortunately, we just updated our website to the new location from the Trocadero finally to the phone box and our proper website. 
But yeah, I'm going to be fine for that phone box until the day I die, basically, because we need a public space. 
And it's because, you know, it's it's young people do decide to turn up. 
At least they get like an hour of chat and then we can see what we can do. 
If we can change the second location to say a cafe or a McDonald's where youngsters can go and they won't be a legal problem. 
Right. 
Yeah. 
And also, because I heard on a side topic about Dante here with the chat GPT, if he's in London, he should come to the London 2600 meeting. 
We've got a vacancy. 
Well, it's it's it's not like there are assigned seats or anything like that. 
But yeah, it's open to all. 
It's definitely a welcoming place. 
I've been there. 
It's definitely open to all. 
But like I said, if he's in London, I don't know if he's aware there's actually a London 2600 meeting. 
I believe the next meeting will be the 7th of April. 
You know, we're a friendly bunch. 
We just had a new person turn up in the February meeting. 
She came back to the March meeting and she got on really well with me and she won't come back unless I'm there. 
And I don't go to all the meetings due to health reasons and other factors. 
Yeah, that's basically it really. 
I'm I mean, there's there's two of our crew that we're worried about because they're not handling the news very well. 
Yeah, I'm I'm keeping tabs with one. 
Actually, Diesel Dragon has now gone back to a meeting after three years and he was at the January meet. 
It was the last time he saw Mastovic and he also bumped into textiles. 
So that made him say and textiles was very that's Jason Scott, obviously. 
Right. 
Yeah. 
Yeah, which is very popular. 
He's got a lot of stories. 
If you ever meet that guy and he can get him into a bar, buy him drinks and let him chat. 
I've had the pleasure many times and it is it is an honor. 
Yeah, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for turning up because he actually gave me a lot of kudos from the rest of the crew that I managed to get him down the start of 2023 January. 
Things were looking up. 
Me and Matthew were talking about future developments, trying to get everything to go in certain directions. 
You know, he looked positive. 
And then three months later, we've been hit with the bad news. 
But we won't let it stop us. 
We'll carry on and hopefully we can get something going again and doing everything great. 
But he was a key linchpin in the group. 
He's actually the one in charge of our infrastructure when it comes to the website, the mains and other things. 
And we're a bit worried how we how we're going to get those back, shall we say. 
But we're looking into that. 
We're not too worried because we're just trying to get this memorial out the way first, which is old work. 
Colleagues have been invited to. 
I think we're reaching out to the family if they're around, because they're probably going to go back to Cyprus for the funeral. 
But yeah, well, you know, there's there's lots of people. 
He was much loved by the community of hackers and info that he's a big player, really. 
And we were all going to miss him. 
If he actually affected me more than when my father died last year. 
That's that's how bad it is. 
I'm sorry to hear about that. 
But wow, that that that's that's something that affected you that. 
Yeah. 
Well, people are close when people are real close, you know, peers and so forth. 
That's it's it's tough. 
Yeah. 
Yeah, well, like I said before, London 2600 is like family. 
Yeah. 
And, you know, we care about each other. 
We have arguments, you know, it's like my brothers and sisters of the 2600. 
They go away for a little while. 
Maybe they come back, maybe they never come back. 
But, you know, we always miss them and we sort of keep tabs on them. 
All right. 
You know, not much I can really say. 
That's what I want to say about massive. 
There's one thing that's bugging me. 
I remember you called out saying about helping helping the magazine by getting Kindle subscriptions. 
Oh, yes. 
Which which I'm doing. 
And they're taking the money out of the bank, which I'm quite happy that they do it because it supports 2600. 
And I love that. 
But you said that if they're going to stop it, they change the policy and say, should I keep paying or should I cancel it? 
I don't want Amazon to get my money. 
Well, no, I mean, as long as it's still something you can do, it'll still support us. 
What we are working on right now and we are working on this right now is coming up with something that will replace the Kindle or the Kindle subscription that people can still read on their Kindles or be able to have a PDF version of the magazine as a subscription, not just each issue. 
And you'd be surprised this isn't something that exists readily, at least not the way that we want it to exist, where people's personal information is kept secure, where you don't have a third party handling all this, this private data, where things are kept online, where they could be compromised and where we don't have DRM. 
We don't want to have DRM on our magazine so that people can copy it and see it on different devices that they already own. 
So all of this, you know, we want to do it right. 
And we've been working on that for the last couple of months. 
And we expect to have something to debut in the very, very near future. 
And that hopefully will take over for what we lose with Kindle. 
Now, it's a lot. 
You know, we're thinking maybe several thousand subscribers on the Kindle, 5,000 maybe. 
And we can't reach all of them because, weirdly enough, we're not able to to contact our own subscribers on Kindle. 
Amazon keeps that to themselves. 
And unless we get their attention in the magazine, they may not even know something is going to be happening to their subscription. 
So until we disappear, until we disappear. 
And then they just will assume we disappeared. 
So we really need to be able to raise our voices and get some attention so that we have those thousands of subscribers coming back to us. 
And then we'll be all right. 
You know, if we can do that, we won't ever lose them again because we'll be controlling it. 
It won't be Amazon controlling it. 
And and hopefully people will will stick around. 
We really, really encourage people to spread the word, share with others, tell the story. 
It's a great way to talk about what's going on with a lot of publishing and self-publishing and distribution and so forth. 
And like you said, there's a lot of constraints. 
There's a lot of considerations that we've had conversations about. 
We've been appealing to a lot of dedicated people from the community that that have insights and so forth. 
So we want to orchestrate basically this migration of readers. 
And we don't have anything on the 2600.com web page yet. 
We will very soon because we don't have anything to update yet. 
And that's about to change. 
But we're going to yeah, we're going to get the announcement made and basically invite people to sign up and check it out. 
I'm sure you'll find a way I think you're pretty good with technology. 
Well, it's it's definitely something we've had practice at. 
But we have we have a lot of support, a lot of good people that great ideas really pour their hearts into this. 
And we would be nowhere without them. 
And you are counted as one of them. 
Well, I appreciate that, and I thank you for that. 
I would definitely spread the word and I would try and get as many people to sign up if it's not a paper copy than the digital copies. 
I am more or less force everyone to buy your merchandise with the the hacky uniform, not that I have to, but we try and convince it so that we can recognize each other. 
But yeah, I'm always pro 2600 company, man. 
That's why I stay away. 
Well, we have all kinds of ideas. 
We're going to be adding all kinds of new things. 
So we'll we'll be talking about that when it happens. 
Thanks for asking, though. 
All right. 
I bet I better clear down the line because it's unfair. 
Well, this is not the going of the thing. 
So please forgive me. 
Everyone is listening to this, but it was important news. 
Thank you so much for sharing that. 
And I think Alex has something to say. 
Go ahead. 
Yes. 
I'm so sorry to hear about that, because I can thank you for letting me know a few days ago about that as well. 
And, you know, I just haven't been in London during the first Friday of the month, but I have really great and fond memories of the crew, including Diesel Dragon, you know, from my years when I when I lived in London and you were so incredibly welcoming and the crew was wonderful. 
And I miss you guys. 
And look, you know, my time when I'm in London is a little bit crazy. 
You're both in London right now. 
I just realized that you're both in the same place. 
We're we're both in London. 
For a pint over a pub. 
That's exactly what I was about to say, is that we we got to get together, man. 
You should you should come. 
I don't remember exactly where it is in London that you live, but the city's not that big. 
We should get together and clink glasses. 
Actually, the city is really. 
Yes, that's. 
Definitely, but we we will find a way to meet up. 
And listen, you've got my Twitter message me on Twitter and we can arrange that I may even bring down some of the crew because we are doing small gatherings before like the memorial. 
And there's a lot of people that are in London, so maybe I can get some together. 
I'll see if I can get flipped down, because I know you two guys used to hang out together. 
But yeah, definitely. 
If you're in town, then, you know, we don't have to meet up on a 2600. 
I mean, you know, we can actually go out and see other times. 
I know. 
Yeah. 
I heard you leave the house when it's not the first Friday of the month. 
So, yeah, let's take advantage of that. 
I am insanely jealous right now because I want to be a part of this. 
Well, you're always welcome, Emmanuel. 
And, you know, if you get in touch with us and we know that you're in town, I'm sure that we can get a small gathering of people and do like a special meet up. 
So, I mean, we we try to do a meeting nearly every two weeks. 
We were mid months. 
They sort of stopped due to the pandemic. 
But you guys know how to get hold of me. 
So, you know, just get in touch and I'll see if I can arrange something. 
You just basically shot down the street and somebody will know how to get a hold of his app. 
That's true. 
It's true. 
Yeah. 
Everybody sort of knows me. 
And yeah, rebel. 
Stop bringing up a hog in the phone line all the time. 
He's calling right now. 
I don't know how you know that. 
You should know this by now. 
Oh, yeah. 
OK. 
All right. 
Look, I'm sorry. 
I'm sorry to take your time. 
Just for the record, you guys, you do daylight savings before us in the UK. 
Right. 
And I nearly got caught out with the show. 
I missed the the the radio show on WBA A.I., but I sort of caught up on the tail end. 
I'm sorry that Rob and Gila are not on today. 
I don't know why, but I send my regards. 
Listen, I've spoken too much. 
I need to clear down this line and see if somebody else can phone in or you need to wrap up the show. 
I think we're done getting a bit late. 
I think we're done for the night, because what time is it over there is up? 
At one oh six, so six minutes past one in the morning. 
Yes, that's that's past Alex's bedtime. 
So, yeah, I don't want to keep him up. 
He gets cranky in the morning. 
Perfect hour to to commence hacking. 
That's true, too. 
Yes, absolutely. 
All right. 
Just for the record. 
I was going to say just the last thing, just for the record, if you haven't done daylight saving, it normally is two o'clock over in the UK when I'm listening to the show and phoning in. 
Interesting. 
So it's an hour early. 
We're lucky we caught it in. 
Yeah, I don't I don't phone up all the time, obviously, because I don't have anything to say and I don't need to phone up every time. 
But yeah, we're surviving with Brexit. 
There's a food shortages and everything. 
But yeah, we'll carry on. 
Anyway. 
All right. 
Thank you for taking the phone call. 
And hopefully I'll see you guys soon. 
Alex, I'll see you very soon. 
With any luck, hook me up on my socials or whatever. 
But yeah. 
Thank you. 
All right. 
Be well, Zapp. 
Take care. 
All right. 
Bye. 
All right. 
Our friend Zapp from London. 
You know, speaking of daylight savings, before people start suggesting, hey, why don't we keep this all the time? 
Because that always happens every damn time. 
And the voices are getting louder. 
People don't seem to remember. 
I think this might be before your time, Alex. 
But when I was a kid, they did that. 
They had daylight savings all year long. 
They tried it out. 
It was a disaster because kids had to wake up and wait for the school bus in the pitch black dark, you know, when the sun hadn't come up yet because it was an hour later. 
Right. 
That's what it is. 
An hour later. 
Is there an hour later? 
I always get messed up with this. 
Well, whatever it is, you wound up waiting for a school bus and it was dark and people were getting hit by cars. 
And they only did that one year. 
I think it was only one year. 
So let's not make the same mistake again. 
And maybe school should just start later. 
You could do that. 
Yeah, maybe do that instead. 
I don't know. 
Yeah. 
But it's too goddamn early. 
Yeah, I know. 
Regular time is fine with me. 
But, you know, whatever time you want to make it. 
What? 
It's like nine in the morning now. 
Tell me that. 
OK, fine. 
I'll I'll I'll make it work. 
All right. 
Are we done? 
Yeah, I think so. 
All right. 
We're well done. 
OK. 
Medium. 
Yeah. 
Well, then thanks to everybody for for being a part of the show. 
And we are on next week. 
We are on next week. 
As far as I know, unless something happened that I don't know. 
All right. 
Of course, you can write to us, OTH at 2600 dot com. 
We would love to hear from from from anybody who cares to write to us. 
We always get such nice letters and nice phone calls, too. 
Thank you, everybody, who called in. 
We will see you next time. 
So long. 
Good night.