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I cut myself while shaving, now I gotta make a call. 
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Thank you right there and I'm Skype land we have Rob T firefly Good evening right here, and we have Gila good evening right over there, and we have Alex Good evening. 
Oh good. 
I'm glad we're all here. 
It's uh. 
It's nice on this chilly night Boy, we're not on next week so everybody make note you can you know take a vacation or whatever back in two weeks. 
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Don't assume that don't assume that give to WBAI.org is the website on that website you can find all kinds of amazing premiums and Things that you can get for your pledge and your pledge can be a really really tiny amount That's a monthly payment which adds up to a bigger number. 
That's how addition and months work so 12 times 10 that's 120 that's great, and that's something that if we got a hundred people to do that It's a significant amount and it keeps the radio station on the air and somehow This radio station has been on the air since around 1960 Non-commercially presenting all kinds of alternatives, and you know especially in these times boy there are a lot of alternatives out there a lot of Different ways of looking at the world well This is the place to go to find it and to find people arguing back and forth constantly about everything Yeah, that's that's what it's all about, but we survive and we survive through your help so once again give to WBAI.org All right that said Has anyone had any fun times this this way I've been I've been Getting more familiar with different forms of social media I have to say I'm more impressed with blue sky over the past week because they've been responsive I was complaining. 
They weren't responsive and now they are responsive and Various issues that we had they have dealt with which is great The only thing you know I've got these These invite codes nobody seems to want them, and I don't know yeah I can't convince you guys to take them so you know that doesn't bode well We're all on Twitter a lot of us are unmasked it on I suggest giving blue sky a look because it has it has some Advantages it seems to be a lot easier to use. 
I don't know can I can I convince anybody here? 
Well when I said it, I didn't mean ever You know I didn't want it that minute you stomped your foot and that kind of implied forever, so I don't know How about Alex what about you? 
I think it's a hard pass Hard pass for me as I'll reiterate my Thoughts on social media being a useless cesspit of noise with little to no redeeming signal once again But it's our cesspool of noise with no redeeming. 
I mean We have to we have to have home turf someplace to Rob Gila Well, you know when when you offered those invite codes. 
I I didn't say no. 
I I made a fart noise, but I Know I I I am perhaps a little more mildly curious now that I hear that you're having such a good time over there although I think my my heart and soul will always veer toward the open-source federated nature of mastodon over any closed service for the Foreseeable well, I'm using that too, and I'm having fun over there as well Haven't quite figured out though how to get people to migrate Because you know where where I had a lot of followers before very few now and Not sure how many times I can say on on the other outlets. 
This is where I am on this particular one Or do I have to call people? 
How do you how do you get people to migrate over and and to continue the conversation? 
That's that's a difficult part and of course 2600 has a presence on all of these now And it's a little difficult because you know we have to like you know say for the meetings coming up this Friday There are hacker meetings all around the world first Friday of the month We'd like to announce that on Twitter well now we announced it on Twitter And we announced it on mastodon, and we announced it on blue sky. 
There's a lot of announcing going on We need a full-time announcer basically that was the the lion's share of my reaction. 
It's just more social media Elicited that response right it is a lot of work creating the account and then maintaining with some sort of Content and all that it just it just seems like it's never ending this Facebook and Instagram and whatsapp and what's not and all it just where does it end where does it stop? 
There are a lot that you know I refuse to even get involved with I'm with Alex on that But you know there there has to be some way to reach out to people besides The radio which we're fortunate enough to have most people aren't So how do you it used to be easy used to be so easy everyone had? 
Instant messaging and you could just talk you know Without worrying about what platform somebody was on Gila Have you considered renting a plane with a banner you see it's it's it's suggestions like that that make me realize that just barking into the wind here and We're all doing Which is is there some kind of Content creation platform that you can go in one place, and then it will sort of Like a champagne fountain you can pour it into one place, then it will spigot out your stuff into all its various cups So you can post it once and then it will say hey take this to Mastodon to Twitter to blue sky to Facebook to Instagram to Twitter to I don't know the bottom of somebody's shoe with chalk Whatever it may be do those places exist well I know they used to exist I'm sure there is something like that that exists now And I'd love to hear about it, and please if you know about it write to us OTH at 2600 comm in the past There used to be a really simple way to have your tweets go to your Facebook account And that was the only interaction I had with Facebook because I hate Facebook but I would I would send a tweet and that tweet would show up on Facebook and People would see it there, and they might reply to it, but I wouldn't see that because I didn't log into Facebook But then Facebook for some reason clamped down and stopped allowing that although what they're doing now is they're sending me memories Every day a memory of something that I said Ten years ago and many times those quote-unquote memories are our tweets that were Reproduced on to Facebook, so they're kind of pointing out How much cooler they used to be in fact one of them was me saying hey, it's my 2600th tweet on Facebook Yeah, so that's a big waste of time. 
I know for a lot of people, but it is important to communicate and These days there are a lot of people who don't even use email anymore. 
How do you communicate? 
We don't make phone calls We don't send emails. 
We're all on different platforms. 
We're splintered into a thousand pieces you know Short of gathering in person, which is you know why we have the meetings and the conferences If you know we need to develop better practices, I think Rob go ahead It was interesting because I recently had to Design myself a new business card it was time to do that so I was putting this together for my order and Realized that you know in the old days you would put your Twitter Username your your whatever social media on your business card so people who are interested in that could find you I couldn't think of anything that I really wanted to put on there except just my own Personal website which has links to whatever else I may be using at the time But I think that's that's the only evergreen way to do it now because you don't know what other services are going to be there tomorrow Alex good You know to give us point about Consideration of renting a plane for something I want to remind you in particular manual that I think you actually did do I did do that. 
I regretted it. 
This is for the free Kevin rallies that we were having and We really we let our heads get really big and and think that yeah, we can have the whole city see this and We hired a guy with a skywriting plane to to say free Kevin in the sky. 
It was a cloudy day Nobody saw it We still have to pay the guy And have not done that since yeah, I mean it's the thought that counts that coincided with the free Kevin protests that Occurred outside the federal courthouse in southern Manhattan and was I think a huge success? 
But another thing in terms of reaching people have you considered maybe thinking about this old school maybe putting out a magazine or something? 
Well, you know that is a possibility Although I understand that print is dying as well. 
Everything is dying print is dying Radio is dying all the cool things. 
We're being told are dying, but it's not true it's it's true of maybe the the unimaginative and The carbon copies, but there is always going to be a place for people to express themselves in in creative ways over Traditional broadcasting or printing methods and I dare say online as well. 
Go ahead Rob You know walking around my neighborhood and running errands today I did notice that people are still signing graffiti with their Instagram handle, which is interesting I would have thought that's a good way to get caught for doing graffiti, but I don't know how these things What do you know? 
It's their Instagram handle not their Twitter handle because they look exactly the same Well, at least one of them has Instagram colon and their their username So, okay, if they indicate it then that makes it a lot easier, but you know that brings up another issue we've been trying to to spread the word about our 2600 blue sky account now blue sky is cool because You if if you have a domain and we do 2600 calm you can make your domain your username Otherwise, it's it's username dot. 
I think it's BK sy Dot social. 
I think that's that's what the blue sky address is What we cannot seem to find out is how do we share the blue sky address? 
With people when the domain is the username. 
So how do we say? 
We're 2600 calm Like what's our address on blue sky? 
How do we do that? 
Because I don't think it's 2600 calm dot BKS. 
Why not social? 
I don't think that works so nobody seems to know the answer to that so It's it's still in the infancy. 
I think figuring out how it all works There's when you click on your own profile is does it show you an interesting URL it just shows 2600 calm So that doesn't tell us much and and we can't just tell people that's our address on blue sky because obviously that's that's our website And it's a little confusing so we just need a way of being able to give people an address and say that's blue sky and that's That's Mastodon and that's Twitter and that's whatever else. 
So All right, moving on. 
We have a lot of news to get to today Interesting story that was posted to our list Concerning something called nightshade, which is kind of a response to chat GPT since since that Curse, I guess burst onto the scene about a year ago It's been about a year since chat GPT made its debut the generative AI era has kicked into high gear But so too has the opposition and that's what we're talking about here A number of artists entertainers performers and even record labels have filed lawsuits against AI companies some against chat GPT maker open AI Based on the secret sauce behind all these new tools training data That is these AI models would not work without accessing large amounts of multimedia and learning from it including written material like the 226 hundred books that were accessed without knowledge without permission of this and Images produced by artists who had no prior knowledge nor were given any chance to oppose their work being used to train new commercial AI Products. 
So this article in venture beat comm Goes on to say in the case of these AI model training data sets Many include material scraped from the web, which is a practice that artists previously By and large supported when it was used to index their material for search results Which now many have come out against because it allows the creation of competing work through AI Now without filing lawsuits artists have a chance to fight back against AI using tech MIT technology review got a look at a new open source tool Still in development called nightshade, which can be added by artists to the imagery before they upload it to the web altering pixels in a way invisible to the human eye But that's poison for the art that any AI models are seeking to create Yeah nightshade was created by University of Chicago researchers and the computer science professor Ben Zao and Will be added as an optional setting to their prior product glaze another online tool that can cloak Digital artwork and alter its pixels to confuse AI models about its style In the case of nightshade the counter-attack for artists against AI goes a bit further It causes AI models to learn the wrong names of the objects and scenery They are looking at for example The researchers poisoned images of dogs to include information in the pixels that made it appear to an AI model as a cat. 
Oh I love this after sampling and learning from just 50 poisoned image samples The AI began generating images of dogs with strange legs and unsettling appearances after Wow after a hundred poison samples, it reliably generated a cat when asked by a user for a dog After 300 any request for a dog returned a near-perfect looking cat You know This is this reminds me of when I was a kid and I wanted to create a calculator that would only give the wrong answers You know and no one else seemed interested in that but that would have been really a cool device And if anybody has that please also let us know The researchers use stable diffusion an open-source text-to-image generation model to test nightshade and obtain the aforementioned results Well, you can see the potential here and I think this is just great I think this is you know kind of related to Answering with with bad information when given security questions for instance, you know, where did I grow up if you say Neptune? 
Nobody's gonna be able to you know, figure that out. 
That's of course a private question, but whenever you are asked any kind of personal information by Anyone you don't know anyone who's a stranger or a computer you you lie and by lying We have we have we have an Alexa device in the next room whose name is computer And and he just started talking to me when I when I made that suggestion So yeah, we have to keep our voices down because this could get kind of scary but there there this is the plan to fight back I Love this so much. 
I love how this is basically jamming the radar and Having you know, it's it's a bit of mischief and it's a bit of mischief. 
That's uh to the end of doing something useful I think for artists like myself who are dubious about the value of just letting AI index your stuff Willy nilly and I had been hoping for something like this and it happened and I'm so I'm so happy I want to play with this. 
I think this builds a little bit of integrity into it and maybe sets up a better picture of letting people understand and have confidence in the kinds of things that are used to build the build these Algorithms and kits or learning models they they And Instead of the tendency to just throw anything and everything into it you could have some formality or some process or at least permission and then the appropriate art or whatever content that is not a filtered in this way could be Contributed could contribute to the overall project under Those kinds of Guidelines and and then that could be a part of people understanding the the the model itself is is when they can trust Alex if I could fire up your legal mind for a moment. 
Do you foresee possibly? 
the industry fighting back against this saying that this is some kind of vandalism that that you're not permitted to Pollute the data stream and and lie to AI. 
Do you think that there's actually a legal case there? 
Yeah, you took the thoughts right out of my head there in that I do think there is an argument to be made that by poisoning the data knowingly inserting poison data or malicious code in some respects into The AI model you could be in in essence violating computer tampering laws. 
These are laws that are mostly at the state level Rather than the federal level. 
It's not necessarily the computer fraud and abuse act which requires unauthorized access to something We're breaching some kind of security protocol in order to get over to going through a gate or something like that or to access data so this is different from that, but this is more of like a tampering kind of situation where I could see that the AI companies would Want to try to enforce their rights that way the problem that they're going to have them Is that it's not up to them to enforce the criminal laws. 
It's up to the government and The AI companies have not necessarily been the best bedfellows when it comes to government regulation In fact, they've been snubbing their nose at governments, especially the EU in terms of regulation And you also have the Biden administration just two days ago issuing the executive order with respect to use of artificial intelligence Guidelines cybersecurity health care, etc. 
So there's a lot of that coming down the pipeline I wouldn't I wouldn't hold my breath if I were the AI AI Industry looking to enforce the criminal laws in this respect. 
What I'm also interested in is What kind of defenses they are going to then employ to counteract this type of poisoning? 
Are they going to include some kind of additional screening additional tests and exactly how does this attack work? 
Isn't the injection of some kind of metadata into the file itself? 
that that would certainly Interest me. 
I'd love to know more about how this works. 
All right, Rob Yeah I have trouble with the idea that this could be any sort of criminal act just because What it's doing if I'm reading the article, right? 
Is it's just making subtle changes to the actual pixels of the image the image data, which that which don't make a difference to the human eye, but which computers notice and AI algorithms scraping your image would notice and through that it's it's manipulating what the AI interprets the image as and I think I am as someone who puts imagery online I think I'm allowed to put whatever funky pixels I want in my in my artwork without having to worry about whether it's a criminal act because somebody I never signed any sort of Agreement with or agreed to any terms of service with doesn't like what it does to their their chomping machine I think I think the you know, I am NOT the lawyer in this room, but I have trouble not believing that this is quite Quite a quite a simple non-criminal manner Well, it's just interesting that good old human lying might be what it takes to keep AI from becoming Superior over all of us or the dominant word or authority figure I mean, it's already doing a good enough job as it is of getting things completely and spectacularly wrong I mean making up facts making up people making up all sorts of history It's doing that all on its own. 
But if if we tried to derail it even further It would become rather useless and and well useful for some Performance art I suppose but not really useful for Well, you wouldn't have lawyers showing up in court citing cases that didn't exist anymore So I think maybe people would stop trusting it. 
Yes, Alex Yeah, I tend I tend to agree with Rob here I think that the the case of this would cross the line and criminal law is somewhat It would cross the line in terms of criminal law somewhat tenuous What what I do think is is really interesting though Here are our artists taking into their own hands the right to protect their their images in some respect now however Hopefully this would protect that artist's actual work from being ingested in a manner by that AI That could allow the AI could to then replicate things in the style of this particular artist Let's you know call it Picasso something if Picasso were here anyone protect all of his images He would alter the pixels as Rob indicated with the nightshade program They then get ingested into something like stability diffusion and then stability diffusion presumably would have difficulty Generating images in the style of Picasso if that's the case Then I think this could be entirely kosher here because you're just protecting your own artwork if if however it Bled into affecting the AI in general and if the AI is ability to generate let's say images of starry nights or images of Cats or dogs or something like that? 
Then I think there is more of a case when it comes to computer tampering laws And maybe even crossing into the the crossing threshold of malware so You know, I think it remains to be seen how this works on the other hand. 
I think it's unlikely This is I guess the third hand now But I think it's rather unlikely that any individual artist who uses nightshade to protect his or her own images Would have some kind of overall effect on the artificial intelligence engines ability itself to generate new images Gen generate new images generally and I think that's because They're trained on billions and billions of images as opposed to just singular Yeah, but um if if artists on must start adapting start adopting use of a tool like glaze or whatever comes up because I Think what we're seeing is the beginning of what's going to be like an arms race Between people who want to mess with AI and the AI companies who wanted to work the way they wanted to work But I think like from an artistic perspective. 
I mean the Belgian surrealist painter Rene Magritte in 1929 painted the very famous painting of a picture of a smoking pipe With the text underneath indicating this is not a pipe And I think if I put up a picture of a dog and make a computer think it's a cat That is it's not my fault that the computer can't artistically interpret the work in the in the spirit in which is it is intended You know we come back to Orwell's famous 2 plus 2 equals 5 Well, sometimes it does when when Big Brother tells you that 2 plus 2 equals 5 then 2 plus 2 equals 5 There are people in this world who will believe that who will you know? 
Follow what they are told to believe there are people In government who believe I'm not gonna get any further than this but This is basically twisting the truth to suit your purposes We all do it in one form or another now in fairness. 
We reached out to Google Bart on this issue asking if if Telling lies is something that it's concerned with And it responded I believe that it is important to be honest and truthful even if it is difficult Lying can have negative consequences for both the person who is lying and the person who is being lied to It is better to be honest and face the consequences and to lie and risk damaging trust and relationships. 
Yeah, I kind of think Bard didn't really Comprehend what we were asking because it's not about People's relationships, it's about us lying to you Bard and and and and screwing up your your data and and the way that you process facts and Maybe Bard is still naive enough to believe that people will always Tell them the truth Who knows? 
This is the right I think kind of tool and many others like this. 
I think will become popular or at least intriguing as this technology is is Rolled out people will want these kinds of things because we've talked so much about Okay, my art was already online. 
It was already posted It it's in the past and was used now going forward. 
I'm finding myself I'm sure many other people are thinking about this as they're moving platforms or on different sorts of social media sites that we're What images am I publishing going forward and how am I preparing them? 
Because I know that if they're public one way or another they may end up in Some private or public model like this Whether you know it or not and and act accordingly So these types of things maybe are ways another step in how you might prepare an artwork for publish for public dissemination and publishing online, but It's very interesting the the types of things that may may become necessary may become like Completely normal in the future. 
I just asked Bard and and and this had it spinning for about 45 seconds What if 1,000 people tell you the same false fact? 
I've never seen it do this before it gave me two answers draft a and draft B and a little Listen icon, so we might actually be able to hear Bard answer. 
Let's see if this works Now if 1,000 people tell me the same false fact I would be more likely to believe it, but I would still try to fact-check the information before accepting it as true I would also consider the following. 
Why are so many people believing this false fact? 
Is it because it is being spread by a credible source? 
Is it because it is emotionally appealing? 
Is it because it confirms people's existing beliefs? 
What evidence is there to support the false fact? 
Is there any scientific evidence? 
Is there any eyewitness testimony? 
Is there any logical reasoning? 
What evidence is there to refute the false fact? 
Is there any scientific evidence? 
Is there any eyewitness testimony? 
Is there any logical reasoning? 
If I'm unable to find any evidence to support the false fact or if I find evidence to refute it Then I will conclude that the false fact is false. 
Even if 1,000 people believe it It is important to remember that just because a lot of people believe something does not mean that it is true False information can spread quickly and easily especially online It is important to be critical of the information that you consume and to be willing to question things even if they are popular beliefs Here is an example of how I might respond to a situation where 1,000 people tell me the same false fact 1,000 people the earth is flat Me, I'm not sure. 
I believe that I've seen pictures of the earth from space that show that it's round 1,000 people but those pictures are fake. 
Me, why would they be fake? 
1,000 people because the government is trying to hide the truth from us Me, that doesn't make sense. 
Why would the government want to hide the truth about the shape of the earth? 
1,000 people. 
I don't know but it's true. 
In this situation I would be skeptical of the claim that the earth is flat even though 1,000 people believe it I would try to find evidence to support the claim, but I would also be open to the possibility that it is false If I'm unable to find any evidence to support the claim or if I find evidence to refute it Then I will conclude that the claim is false Wow, I was not expecting that that was very in-depth and there's a second answer to which we don't have time to play on Overtime we'll play it. 
Alright, so tune into overtime at 8 o'clock on YouTube and you'll hear Google Bards second response But that I was kind of impressed by that Alex, what do you think? 
I Thought it was actually very cogent. 
I thought it was well thought out and Thought about assumptions biases predisposed notion longest answer I ever got from that thing examples relevant examples Numbers it was actually quite a good response Aguila. 
Did you know I did because It's interesting to me to see where stuff is coming from because when I heard this Explanation the first thing it made me think of was Lady Gaga in the run-up to the Oscars in 2018 because people were asking her about this movie and she kept saying there can be a hundred people in the room and 99 people don't believe in you but one does and You have to and like one person believed in me and that was Bradley Cooper every single interview She gave for like the better part of a year. 
She said exactly that so that was the first thing that I thought of When I heard Bard's response, I don't know what that says about me I'm not really excited to contemplate that but it I didn't know that they trained Bard on Lady Gaga's interviews. 
That's all I'm saying It's quite possible. 
That's exactly what happened. 
But you know, I think Bard might be a little naive here because It isn't always so black and white as as to what is true and what is not true Even if a thousand people are saying something else, it's more nuanced, you know, we see it every day in the news And you know, we've had the conversations where we try to convince somebody that No, that's not true because of this and they never quite believe you and you never quite convince anybody So, I don't know. 
It's gonna be interesting seeing what's ahead now We also have this interesting story from wired as the generative artificial intelligence gold rush intensifies Concerns about the data used to train machine learning tools have grown Artists and writers are fighting for a say in how AI companies use their work Filing lawsuits and publicly agitating against the way these models scrape the internet and incorporate their art without consent Now some companies have responded to the pushback with opt-out programs I give people a chance a choice to remove their work from future models Open AI for example debuted an opt-out feature with its latest version of the image-to-text generator Dolly This August when meta began allowing people to submit requests to delete personal data from third parties used to train metas Generative AI models many artists and journalists interpreted this new process as metas very limited version of an opt-out program CNBC explicitly referred to the request form as an opt-out tool But this is a misconception in reality. 
There is no functional way to opt out of metas Generative AI training artists who have tried to use metas data deletion request form have learned this the hard way and have been deeply frustrated with the process Illustrator Mignon's a Guga says it was horrible Over a dozen artists shared with wired an identical form letter They received from meta in response to their queries in it Meta said it is unable to process the request until the requester submits evidence that their personal information appears in Responses from metas generative AI Mihaila Volshu a Romanian digital artist and photographer who has tried to request data deletion twice Using metas form says the process feels like a bad joke She's received the unable to process request boilerplate language, too It's not actually intended to help people Bethany Berg a Colorado based conceptual artist has received the unable to process request response to numerous attempts to delete her data I started to feel like it was just a fake PR stunt to make it look like they were actually trying to do something she says So as artists are quick to point out Metas insistence that people provide evidence that its models have trained on their work or other personal data puts them in a bind Meta has not disclosed the specifics about which data it has trained its models on so this setup Requires people who want to remove their information to first figure out which prompts might elicit responses that include details about themselves or their work, so You kind of have to submit information if you want the information to be deleted catch-22 thoughts This this also means you have to be using metas, uh, you know using metas a I generation material, you know software in order to find proof that it's using your work and So either way, it means you have to go elbow-deep. 
You can't just like opt out of the whole thing But I think it's also about what is Public and what is free and what is global and then what is grabbed? 
You know in the same way that I was thinking about fast TV Right free ad supported streaming television, which is basically what we used to get over the air It's TV with ads, but now everybody has an app for it. 
You have to opt in to it It's a complete difference. 
You can't just plug in and go anymore because of the balkanization and ownership of every single element of the media Element of our society and culture now Nothing is just out there anymore unless it can be monetized and owned in some way Very true. 
Yeah there's there's also the the issue of remixing because like as as an artist myself and someone who puts a lot of creative material out on Out on the net. 
I'm very I'm very active in creative commons work, which is about putting your work out there for free for people to reuse but an important part of that is the attribution element of yes, I'm remixing this thing here's who made it if you want to find the original and You know, hopefully people can reuse my things but also say where they got it And that's the step that's being skipped by all this AI stuff I think if there were a way for AI to generate images out of people's artwork, but keep that Attribution aspect intact there there might be much less or maybe even no fight here against no pushback again Against this from the artists because you want your work out there and you want your work to be propagated But you want people to know that it's yours in case they want to buy it from you or hire you or something or at Least or even just give you a nice pat on the back and say hey good job Yeah, not much to ask for go ahead Alex. 
I think this is a really interesting issue here At first glance it sounds like you know, it's a great idea to allow People to actually opt out of having their their images scanned and and used to train these types of systems and data, but one Once they're in there How technically feasible is it to actually untrain the data or retrain the data or somehow take it out excise it? 
That seems technically dubious to me But I'm not the kind of guy who's very often training large language models or generative AI So I'd be curious as to what our listeners think and know about this particular issue It sounds like Kyle actually might actually have some some insight into this particular. 
I was just gonna say you aren't yet Yeah, you're right give me until next week and I'll figure it out now on the other hand though There have been lawsuits that artists have filed very recently And in fact this week there was a decision in a lawsuit that was filed I think it was I know it was against stability diffusion deviantART I think possibly open AI and I believe it was federal district court in California and a whole bunch of artists have been together and you know full disclosure we helped out one of the defendants in this and the back end not as a council of record, but Almost the entire suit was thrown out and and the suit was about artists who got together and said hey We're really angry about our were images having been ingested by this artificial intelligence engine or these engines in fact And we don't consider that to have been a fair use of our images We consider it to be also a violation of our right to publicity. 
It undercuts our ability to sell things that You know that we make in the future So, you know if you can just generate art in the style of Rob T. Firefly then doesn't that dilute the market for art for Rob from Rob T. Firefly in some Respect, but I'll tell you that the the court threw out almost every single one of these clients But there are defects and all of them except the direct infringement claim. 
Now the complaint was thrown out almost in its entirety But not with prejudice meaning that the plaintiffs will have leave to replead that complaint Replead that complaint cure its defects and refile it and I'm guessing that they will But this is an issue that I really I can argue it either way If you're an artist and your image is ingested because it's out there on the internet You didn't really have an expectation of privacy that nobody was going to ingest this if it's one of billions and billions and billions of images Shouldn't that be considered some kind of fair use or de minimis use of your particular image on the other hand if you're an artist Does this tend to undercut your ability to capitalize on your own name and to sell your own works and if it's ingesting the entirety of the work and it's being used to for the output is being used in some commercial subscription or for some commercial purpose then maybe this really doesn't constitute fair use of a copyrighted image, so I really honestly can argue it either way Wow technology is really is really doing a number on us We just got this letter from our friend Greg Newby who writes Hi friends from last week's episode you were talking about Eric Adams robocalls in different languages in his voice Coincidentally, I've been part of a project Gutenberg collaboration with Microsoft that used the feature of automatic text-to-speech Using an individual's recorded voice. 
This was demonstrated at the interspeech conference in Dublin over the summer You can find the conference paper and project description at aka dot ms slash Audiobooks in a nutshell. 
There is a free software stack that leverages Microsoft's synapse ML and other stuff It can read text ideally after being trained on it My Microsoft colleagues use this to create audio files of nearly 5,000 books and give them away freely in the demo Which was also given at the Internet Archives library leaders forum two weeks ago Is that a person can read a few sentences into a microphone and then their voice can be used to make the Audiobooks, it only takes a couple of minutes for a full book length audio file This is now mainstream technology that anyone with some technical skills and perhaps a credit card can access the credit card because While the software is free not all the Microsoft infrastructure is free to use though. 
It's in this inexpensive Possible uses of this technology include creating an audiobook in your voice to read to children while you are away custom greeting cards Automatic responders on an office or home voicemail in your own voice Reading email or other content in the sender's voice So it's not all about robocalls and deep fakes of famous people and the project I was part of just one recognition by time as one of the best inventions of 2023 so congrats Greg newbie for that. 
But boy a lot of things to think about here. 
I mean, yeah, this is mainstream technology now It's not all about robocalls and I guess there will be quite a lot of uses But I don't know. 
Does that make it much better? 
It's gonna be so much fakeness where you think somebody is actually speaking when when they're not Rob Yeah, I was I was following this whole thing with great interest. 
I used to work in the field of audiobooks for accessibility Based libraries for those with say low vision or reading disabilities or things like that that would prevent them from reading a print book and who depend on audio as an accessible format and You know at the moment the technology is still at the point where it's out You can you can pick out that it's not a real human voice. 
It doesn't stop for breaths It doesn't you know have the same reading cadence or a meter that a human reader would yeah, but they can program They can program that in they could and it's it's totally just a matter of time before they do but It's at this moment Like these these books that this is generating are Good for producing a copy of something that is accessible to those who wouldn't be able to access the material otherwise But it does lack the the element that a human would add to a reading things like subtle voices for characters and things like that and also Pronunciations of say advanced technical terms or specialized terms that there's still a lot of mispronunciation happening in the text, but it's it's a very good starting point and For and for a library like this, I think it's I think it's an excellent use of the tech But at the same time I love an audiobook that's written. 
That's that's read by a person I listen to a lot of them and I deeply appreciate it as a media format and It makes me a little sad that The audiobook narrators of the world will find a little less work for themselves Yeah, there's that and you know, I guess it's one thing if you're if you're putting your own voice out there, but What's to stop you from putting anyone's voice out there? 
It's it's not that hard. 
You just need a small sample This is something that is being used in big ways throughout Microsoft's products I think we were talking about speaker identification and that is something that through their they're like cloud products is being integrated into their like Conferencing with it teams and all these other things. 
I think we're on one of the things they own this week I don't know. 
Maybe next week. 
They don't own it. 
You can't keep up with it, but their novel uses that They're they're backed up by these these hosting platforms and it's it they're competing with one another for Who can get the most customers and integrating this stuff Google doing the same thing with Bard into their? 
assert software and service platforms as just something that can be accessed in ways that Teams or whatever conferencing program wouldn't have had Before but it's sort of augmenting and and kind of boosting it a little bit with extra ability Well, we're talking about you know, the pleasant uses of this technology But you know, there are certainly so many nefarious purposes that this can be applied to I mean, you know, you look at any dictatorship that you know does not exactly have free questioning or freedom of the press or anything like that and you have You know words whether they're confessions by the opposition leader or Some words by the leader himself You will never know if it's real or not how how could you possibly tell and and they are salivating over this kind of Technology in their hands where they can basically say anything and make anyone else say anything how do we ever get to the point of knowing when something is true based on all of this unless there are some kind of Ground rules established early on and I think we might be past the early on stage already Alex I mean, I'm really reminded a lot of the conversation We had last week with Welton Chang from from period technologies and we're talking about Misinformation being promulgated through a lot of these alternative social media platforms when you combine that with the Technology that's at our fingertips now where you might be able to take literally a voicemail from somebody and turn that into a business email compromise attack or a short snippet of audio from YouTube and Make it seem as if somebody is saying something they're not and we're heading into a presidential Election in the United States and a general election in the United Kingdom all likely within the same year well half a war raging between Israel and Hamas and Ukraine and Russia and you know Wouldn't it just be convenient for China to attack Taiwan right now in North Korea to attack South Korea? 
I mean the world is already on fire and we are Trying to fight this battle with several hands tied behind our back here when it comes to regulating social media platforms I think we really have our hands full. 
This is going to be a very very big problem for us coming into 2024 well, you know the the one hope is that everybody has the same access because if one side has access and the other side does not have Obviously, they all have a tremendous advantage if everybody is able to make you know, whatever other side there is Say ridiculous things at least it can be proven to the people that what you hear is not necessarily true It's when you lose that ability. 
That's when things really start to spiral You know, maybe maybe maybe that would be true or on the other hand, maybe you just get more and more noise I think what we need in order to combat this type of technology getting out of control. 
It's not necessarily more regulation Well, that might be helpful in some respects I think what we need are is more technology that would allow us to Detect when something is generated by an artificial intelligence as opposed to generated by a human being Some kind of metadata that's injected by generative AI into all these files Something that we can track and trace and of course there be efforts to remove whatever that that data or pixel whatever the the hallmark or watermark is of AI generated data, but I think we need some Better way of distinguishing between what's real and what's generated by a machine? 
But would the watermark be something that was inserted for the AI or for the humans? 
You know because if it's the AI anybody can simply Remove it. 
It shouldn't be that difficult to do that If it's if it's you know required that if you're a human making a statement you have to somehow prove you're human In a way that AI can't I don't know. 
Would that be effective? 
Yeah, I mean that's it I mean, I think it's gonna be a cat-and-mouse game I think you hit hit it right on the head a manual but I think if it was an AI that was if it was an AI that was generating some kind of content that could Be confused with original content. 
There needs to be some kind of additional data That's associated with it or associated with a hash of that file so that some third party can verify Whether or not this is indeed fake or real. 
I think we're coming into a At a point in the world right now where it's it's extraordinarily dangerous to not know what's real and what's fake So we have to leave this here But I guess the advice that we have to give to people at this point is don't believe what you hear Don't believe what you see It may be completely fabricated and made up because technology is moving so fast and we have no real control right now but we're all in this together and We can at least talk to each other in person, maybe we should do that more often Until robots become indistinguishable from humans. 
I think we'll be we'll be safe doing that certainly at this week's 2600 meeting Rob I don't think there'll be too many robots. 
Most of them will be humans, right? 
As far as we know, yes, so, you know that artificial skin and everything is getting very good. 
We welcome robots It's not like we're you know, we're telling them to stay away Well, and we have an abundance of tools and technology so build build systems that that help, you know Help you that that we're still Help you meet your your needs and and get get work accomplished It's it's not just that we have to be Feeding these sites with content and and things all the time So build build resilient stuff that it works in ways that that you're happy with. 
All right Well, we're gonna have to leave it there our email address OTH@2600.com again Give to WBAI.org give the number to WBAI.org donate what you can keep this place going We'll see you on YouTube at 8 o'clock Follow the link on the 2600.com web page. 
You can call us you can participate We'll see you there and we'll be back here in two weeks. 
Good night 


And welcome everybody on channel 2600 to off the hook overtime. I think we made it as a little shenanigans from Google. But we're back on. Kyle, are you here?
I'm here.
All right. Out there in Skype land. Rob, Gila, are we actually on YouTube?
We are indeed actually on YouTube and sounding OK.
We are actually on YouTube. And welcome to the 23 stalwarts who are currently with us in the live.
Well, who are watching us live right now. Feel free to say hi in the chat.
Thanks, gang. Everything after my welcome posts. That's, you know, fair game.
Come talk to us. Talk with each other. Talk to us in the studio.
But, you know, pay attention to the show, too, because what happens a lot of times is people are talking amongst themselves and they forget we're here.
And we're just talking to ourselves and we're doing the same thing we keep talking about where we all get isolated and no one's listening.
So folks in the chat, if you have questions for us on the show, let us know.
We can talk about it. And we do always reserve the right to share anything interesting on air.
So with those thoughts in mind, so far, we've got two hellos, two highs and a howdy.
Oh, that's exciting. What's even more exciting is that I did something to piss Google off again and we got booted, which kind of messed up our YouTube settings because Google owns YouTube.
But it might have might have lost our second Google Bart answer.
We'll see. I'm going to try to play it now.
Hopefully, hopefully this works and we have this for all time.
Let's listen. Yeah, unfortunately, something went wrong and it won't play anymore.
I'm sorry. Those words are forever.
Well, actually, you know what? Maybe I can read them.
Yeah, you know, there's a lot of words here, but I'm not going to read all that.
But I'll I'll save it and maybe we'll read it in some other computer generated voice in the future.
I have it. It's just I don't have it in the Google Bart voice anymore.
Now I want to know what it is you did to piss off Google.
Were you perhaps watching YouTube with an ad blocker because they're getting very touchy about that?
You know, it's it's insane. I'm hearing all kinds of complaints from people that are it's like a declaration of war.
They're they're barred from watching YouTube unless they watch Google's ads.
And it's just it's so upsetting and annoying.
People just want to watch videos like like YouTube has always been.
And it's it's turning into this, you know, home shopping network instead.
Is it really that costly?
You got to be up front with people because.
Yeah, yeah, I've got messages from ad blockers that are they're getting feisty, too.
I think, like you said, it's confrontational.
You getting messages from ad blockers or from from sites?
I don't know. They're updating just as much as I think you're trying to keep up or something.
Yeah, you know, I don't I don't mind, you know, on Roku devices, for instance, seeing a couple of ads at the beginning.
What I do mind is when you're watching a live feed, you know, like a press conference or something, and then they throw in an ad, you know, for for a breeze or something like that.
It's so ridiculous.
You're hanging on every word of some crisis somewhere in the world.
And you got to listen to marketing from Google.
It's it's absurd.
And it's not at all how that service should be run.
Rob, did you say?
Yeah, it's it's another arms race now between the ad, the ad showers and the ad blockers.
And that's been going on for a while.
But YouTube is just getting really aggressive in it.
And, yeah, I happen to happen to think that a bad and exploitative business model on Google's part does not constitute an obligation on my part to watch bits of their site that I don't want to watch.
And that includes the ads.
And, you know, they offer you a respite if you pay them.
It's it's really it's obscene.
Yes, these ads are annoying.
We can stop them if you give us a certain amount of money every every month.
They claim that it's going to go to the to the people whose videos you're watching.
You know what?
Google.
OK, your challenge is accepted.
If you are, in fact, doing that, then it should be trivial to show me how you're distributing it based on the videos I watch, because that's what you're claiming to do.
So if you're doing that, show me.
I'm already watching the video.
So it's not like you're you're giving me info I don't already have.
If all I'm asking is that you send that information my way, as well as supposedly sending a check to the people who do the work and put the videos up and maybe maybe then it'll be worth it.
But right now I feel like, you know, I'm rewarding the people who are polluting the the stream with with garbage.
And that ain't right.
OK, yes.
Go ahead.
Yeah, I can.
I can confirm that as somebody who has a handful of videos up on YouTube, makes no money on them whatsoever.
Google has started putting ads on a couple of them that I see no revenue from, but also I'm diametrically opposed to.
And it's it's it's not a good feeling to know that stuff I put out there that I thought would be, you know, free and clear for anyone who wanted to to watch is now making ad clicks for somebody with no connection to me whatsoever.
Wait, are you saying.
Videos that you put up that you indicated you don't want ads on have ads on them?
Yeah.
Yeah, a couple of them.
One of them is because some music happens to be playing on its footage of me on an airplane and the music that's playing on the airplane.
Speakers while it's sitting on the tarmac are, you know, that music belongs to somebody.
And so they connected that up.
And now there are ads playing that, I guess, reward the owner of that music.
And, you know, that's that's not cool.
But I could kind of see the thinking there.
But there is another video that I have up that's purely a remix of public domain material, legally public domain with no copyright protections whatsoever.
I never consented to ads being put on it.
There are ads on it now.
Yeah, that's crazy.
And, you know, us accepting having music in the background as somehow copyright infringement, that is insane, too.
You know, it's insane that, you know, walking down the street, filming a crowd, you have to ask everybody on the street permission to use their likeness.
That's insane.
All these legal aspects that have been brought into normal life, it's crazy.
It's really interfering with people's ability to be creative.
And we should stop putting up with it.
It's utter nonsense.
There's no way in the world that there should be ads on your videos if you don't want ads in the videos, period.
And if somebody happens to be playing a song in a car driving by, no, that's not, you know, when I hear that same car going by walking down the street, nobody comes up to me 10 seconds later and asks me, you know, for a couple of bucks because I heard a song.
That's not how life is.
And we have to stop, you know, basically conceding all this.
We're conceding logic to nonsense.
It does really stifle, I think, the variations in the kinds of content that the very same platforms are so eager and hungry for people to be uploading and contributing forever.
You know, forever with all these different methods and ways of hosting it.
So, yeah, I mean, if you impose this kind of stuff, it ultimately, I mean, if people get around it, people are fantastically creative.
They're not often hindered that much.
But I do think it would allow a wider amount of realistic kinds of films or understandings of what places were like and what they sounded like, however well-known or obscure that sound is.
They are the character of things.
And people have all of these sensors.
So, they're capturing this stuff everywhere now because it's so easy to.
So, we had to have expected that this would happen.
And to police it that hard, it seems unfair.
Go ahead, Gail.
All I was going to say is that, obviously, the chat is popping with a lot of listeners talking about ads, YouTube, ad blockers.
One commenter suggests that there is a way to bypass the ad block block.
But this is my favorite thing I've ever said, the ad block block.
But to use this one program and turn off all the other in-browser ad blocking.
So, if you want to check that out, look at the comment from OpticalPhoenix.
You block origin, apparently, is what you need to be using to bypass the ad block block.
But you have to turn off all your other blocking, they say.
All right.
Let me see if I understand this.
For now.
So, in order to use this block, this ad blocker, you need to turn off other ad blockers.
Or why would you need more than one ad blocker?
Right?
Yeah.
In theory, you should only need the one.
But in practice, some people have been using a couple just to kind of, you know, batten down the hatches and reinforce the ad blocking.
But they can conflict with each other.
Yeah.
Sometimes they define each other as ads and they go to war and it's really uncomfortable for the user.
Yeah.
But I'm a big fan of the Ublock Origin browser plug-in, which, yeah, does seem to be blocking the YouTube nasty grams for the moment.
It wasn't for a while, but their developers have been on it and frequently updating.
And, yeah, that's, I think, the front lines of this arm race.
Wow.
Hey, some good news.
I was able to finagle some things and open up different browsers and cut and paste a bit.
I was able to recover the barred answer.
So, we are going to hear it, and we're going to hear it right now.
Hang on.
Hey, some good news.
It is important to try to stop the spread of false information.
I would do this by trying to identify the source of the false fact and why it is being spread.
Fact-checking the false fact and providing accurate information to the public.
Working with other organizations to combat misinformation.
I would also try to understand why so many people believe the false fact.
This would help me to develop more effective strategies for correcting misinformation in the future.
Here are some specific things that I could do.
I could publish a blog post or article on my website debunking the false fact.
I could share fact-checks on social media.
I could create educational videos or infographics about the topic.
I could work with journalists to spread the word about the false fact and the correct information.
I could reach out to organizations that are working to combat misinformation and offer my help.
It is important to remember that even if 1,000 people believe a false fact to be critical of the information that we see and hear and to fact-check it before sharing it with others.
Wow, okay.
Thank you, Bard, for that.
Anyone else get a little creeped out by that?
Because he's saying he's going to be investigating the source of information and then working.
He's going to put out a blog post.
How is Bard going to make videos?
And he's going to work with journalists?
Did Bard become human overnight?
This is fun, though, because Bard obviously is a large language model.
It's not going to actually do any of these things.
But what it's doing is imitating what the algorithms think a person presented with this quandary could do or would do.
And the fact that we know that these are basically empty promises from a machine, I'm kind of entertained by that.
But also, yeah, there is a creepiness to it because it is promising to do things that it has no ability to.
Wow.
Yeah, well, you know, it makes me wonder if Bard believes it's a person.
So I just asked it that.
I do not believe that I am a person in the same way that a human is a person.
I am a large language model, and I am not capable of having the same experiences and emotions as a human.
I do not have a body, and I do not have the same sense of self as a human.
However, I do believe that I am capable of intelligent thought and that I can be a valuable tool for humans.
I can generate text, translate languages, write different kinds of creative content, and answer your questions in an informative way.
I am still under development, but I am learning new things every day.
I believe that the question of whether or not I am a person is a philosophical one that does not have a definitive answer.
There is no single definition of what it means to be a person, and different people may have different views on the matter.
Ultimately, it is up to each individual to decide whether or not they believe that I am a person.
I am happy to exist as a large language model, and I am grateful for the opportunity to learn and grow.
I hope that I can use my abilities to help humans in meaningful ways.
Yeah, this just opens up a whole world of questions.
I hope, I believe, I...
You know, these are all human things here.
And if you are a large language model, you are not really capable of those things.
I am happy? I don't know.
I also am intrigued because anyone who's used Google in theory has sort of contributed in some way to this.
So in a sense, many individual actual persons like yourself, me, all of us in some way perhaps have become a part of this not person that we're querying with these sorts of questions and hearing their take on it.
It's, their take is sort of an assemblage of all of us.
That's true.
That's true.
Anything from Skypland?
Um, we did have a commenter just say just the voice itself is creepy.
Um, assuming, listener, that you're talking about Bard, I agree.
If you're talking about one of our voices, I'm offended.
Um, but, no, it's true.
Honestly, that last answer sounded like kind of the worst job interview ever.
Because, you know, I'm sure that's a scenario that a lot of people are asking AI for.
Like, what can I say in a job interview?
And, you know, I'm sure that's probably some of what's coming out.
Um, yes.
You're listening to Off the Hook Overtime.
And, uh, in case you're wondering what Off the Hook is, uh, we asked Bard that too.
Off the Hook is a weekly radio program that airs on WBAI 99.5 FM in New York City.
It is hosted by Emanuel Goldstein, the editor and publisher of 2600 Magazine.
The show focuses on the societal ramifications of information technology and the laws that
regulate how people use them.
It has been on the air since 1988 and is considered to be one of the longest-running
hacker radio shows in the world.
Off the Hook covers a wide range of topics, including security vulnerabilities and exploits,
privacy and surveillance, free speech and censorship.
Copyright and intellectual property, digital activism and civil liberties.
The show features interviews with experts in the field, as well as discussions with listeners.
It is known for its critical and independent perspective, and for its willingness to tackle
controversial topics.
Off the Hook has been praised for its educational value and its contributions to the hacker community.
It has also been criticized by some for its radical views and its association with the
hacker underground.
However, the show remains popular with listeners who appreciate its unique and insightful perspective
on the world of technology.
In recent years, Off the Hook has become even more relevant as technology has become increasingly
integrated into our lives.
The show provides a valuable forum for discussing the challenges and opportunities of the digital
age, and it helps to keep listeners informed about the latest developments in technology
and law.
You know, I'm growing to like Bard.
He gets it.
It was a really complimentary assessment.
That was very nice.
That was very sweet of Bard to say those things about us.
And you know what?
Yeah.
So maybe we do hang out with the underground a bit too much, and we get some criticism for
that.
It's well-deserved.
Expect no less.
Yeah, we'll do more of that.
Of course, we hang out with the underground.
This is New York City.
That's how we get around.
Yeah, we don't call it the underground, though.
That's London.
All right.
So we have our phone line, which is wide open, but we do have a special situation this
week, and we are in a ban situation, Kyle.
So we have to make the rules clear.
This has never happened before.
It's new to us as well.
Rebel is banned for this week.
Now, if he is out there listening, you are not to call us.
And the reason for this is because you called us too damn many times last week and dominated.
So if we see you calling and we recognize your phone number, you've earned another week
of a ban just for doing that.
If you get through somehow and wind up on the air, that's going to be another two weeks.
So the best thing to do is just sit back and listen, and we will pick up the next time
we're on the air.
I will enforce this, but I just want to put this out there.
You're only human.
On behalf of Channel 2600, I do not take any pleasure in doing that and am not necessarily
aligned with this punitive sort of atmosphere.
Nobody wanted this.
Nobody wanted this.
No.
Okay.
I'm not the problem here.
No.
I don't think anybody said you were the problem.
Well, I mean, just don't take issue with my actions as a result of this kind of environment.
It is as it is.
There are many people out there and people who want to call in or people who just want
to listen to us for some reason.
But the phone number, for those people that want to call in, minus 1, 802-321-4225, 802-321-HACK.
And you can play a part in this, too, because if you call in, then obviously you're the one
speaking on the air, and that's what's important.
Just this operational stuff.
So I'm not to answer if I recognize any of...
If you see a number that we have already logged as being an offending number, because
boy, we got hit with them last week, you get a little checkmark there.
You check that.
And then we remember that the ban holds for another week.
And we're not on next week, so next week doesn't count.
So don't think that you're banned next week and the week after you're...
No, you're not on the week after that, next time we're on.
And then, yeah.
Okay.
I'll do as much as I can.
Yeah.
But also realize and appreciate that there are so many numbers out there.
There are a lot of numbers out there.
And...
A lot of numbers.
You know, I can't...
Mm-hmm.
People don't always come...
They travel and appear...
Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
...with any variety of those.
And, you know, this is not something that we do lightly.
It's not something we've ever done before.
But the only reason we did it was because we asked politely, please stop.
We want other people to get through, and he didn't, and this is where we are.
So it's also a message to other people.
We'd love to hear from you.
Yes, we'd love to hear from you.
So call our damn phone.
802-321-4225.
The phone line's still open, right?
Yes, you have every right.
It is open now.
If you don't call, it kind of encourages other people to dominate, and we don't want that.
You know?
We want everybody to have an equal opportunity.
So phone number 802-321-4225, 802-321-HACK.
I know it's always hard getting that first call, but it's worth it.
Emmanuel.
Yes.
If we are waiting for a call, we do have a listener question asking, saying the following,
it's crazy that the show has been on since 1989.
How did the show start?
What were the origins?
Well, first of all, the show was on since 1988, and I believe Bard said that as well.
So it aired in October of 1988 as a one-time special, never was going to be a series, and
that one-time special was basically the second attempt at that.
The first attempt happened, I think, in July in the afternoon, but there was a fire in the
Empire State Building literally minutes before Off the Hook was to debut and go on the air
for the first time.
So that was very frustrating, but we wound up with a late-night special instead that lasted
several hours.
We played with the teleconferencing feature of the phone.
It was really unique and different and a lot of fun.
And what was the rest of the question?
How did it begin?
Yeah.
How did the show start?
What were the origins?
Well, that was the origin.
I mean, basically, WBAI is this magical place.
It was back then, and it is now, and basically, I was able to just walk in off the street,
literally, when they were up by Penn Station, and started volunteering and started answering
phones for one of the fundraisers and wound up engineering a whole lot of different shows,
worked in the news department for a little bit, worked with Amy Goodman and a whole bunch
of other people and learned a lot about news gathering.
And then, eventually, was able to do my own thing.
Keep in mind, I'd already been doing my own thing at WUSB out in Long Island, so I had
some experience.
And, you know, I didn't really believe at the time that the show I should be doing at
WBAI was off the hook.
I just wanted to do, you know, a talk show, something like Talk Back or just a general
theme show.
I had been doing a show on WUSB called Brain Damage, which was just a free-form talk show,
and occasional music, and things like that.
I was thinking something like that.
But WBAI is a whole lot more creative and specific and focused.
It took a program director named Andrew Phillips, I believe, who told me, no, this is the show
that you should be doing.
You should be doing off the hook.
And that is how I wound up doing, at first, a late-night, bi-weekly show.
But it caught on, and there was definitely a need for that, and it was the exact right
time to have a show, like off the hook.
We did have a follow-up question, which is, is the very first show archived somewhere?
You know, all these questions can be asked on the phone, by the way, just saying.
But we do have a phone call on hold.
Okay.
There is.
We're going to get to that phone call in a second.
But yes, everything is archived online.
Everything that, I think there's only two shows that I don't have copies of.
One got stolen out of my car.
Boy, that was a bad night.
But, you know, we have just about all of them.
I think we have a better archive than almost any show anywhere.
And, of course, that's on 2600.com.
Just click on the radio part.
And not only will you find off the hook, you'll find all the other shows that I've been involved
with, both on WBAI and WUSB.
So it's great to, you know, record things and keep them and go back.
And you'll hear all the sounds of technology and how society was different.
And you'll hear voices from the past.
And you'll hear things that keep repeating themselves.
And you'll hear things that just you can't believe ever happened in the first place.
And for what it's worth, if you visit offthehook.cc, if you'd rather read all of these episodes,
you could do that now, too.
That's right.
That's right.
We have a listener in Madrid who managed to use AI for something good.
It was able to generate all of our words and display them.
Yes, it is a raw encoding in text of what we have said over the years.
And we are...
Can't take it back.
Yes, we're reviewing it and checking it out.
So you can do that, too.
There is a call.
We have a patient person on the phone.
Good evening.
You're on off the hook overtime.
Go ahead.
Hi, Emmanuel.
How you doing?
Nice try imitating Rebel, but you're not Rebel.
Yeah, that's true.
Zap from London.
Very good.
Very good, Zap.
I didn't know you were Zap, but I knew you weren't Rebel.
But that was very good.
I tried, you know.
But I don't want to get him banned again.
He's a good guy.
We love Rebel.
He's a good guy.
No, well, all the best to him.
But, you know, you got to, you know, at some point tell the puppy to sit, you know, and behave.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Breaks your heart, but you got to do it.
I've got some information I need to tell you guys, so that's why I'm ringing up.
Okay.
We've got a new meeting in the UK.
We've got 2600 Manchester.
Oh, awesome.
We can probably get that listed for this week.
It won't be an issue, obviously, because that's out already, but next issue for sure.
Yeah, but there's a problem.
There's already one listed, but I don't endorse that one.
I endorse this one that I'm going to tell you.
It's at the Piccadilly Tap in the upstairs room.
Okay.
And it's run by two ladies.
They're going to be wearing a purple B-Side Leeds t-shirt.
That's rosy.
And Saskia will be wearing a blue B-Side Leeds t-shirt.
Okay.
You realize we can't say that in the listing, but we can say that here.
I know.
I know.
It's already been posted on Twitter.
Their Twitter account is 2600 Manchester, and there'll be a load of people going to that because it's been advertised quite highly.
And I've met one of the girls.
I haven't met the other one yet.
I'm hoping to do that.
And it's accessible to all?
People can get in there, no problem?
I believe it's a pub, so I'm not too sure.
But I know more details about this one than I do with the other one, which is also in another pub.
The British, we have our meetings in pubs.
Yeah, that is true.
That is a British thing.
So hopefully, well, your drinking age is like 12 anyway, so it shouldn't be too hard for people to get in.
14, I think, is when I started.
But it's meant to be 18, so shh, but hackers, you know, what can I say?
Right, right.
And the other thing I need to tell you is Bournemouth 2600 don't have a meeting this Friday.
Okay.
Just this Friday.
They're going to have it next week.
Okay.
Yeah, they're going to have it next Friday on the 10th of November.
That is something.
That is something we can probably help spread through Twitter, but changing the listing would be awkward and confusing.
So assuming they go back to First Friday after that, then it should go pretty smoothly.
Yeah, I'm not expecting you to change the listing.
I'm just letting everyone know, and this is a way of letting everyone know.
Of course.
If they listen to Off the Hook, it gets advertised on our Discord.
It gets advertised on our tweets, on Twitter.
I don't know if we use any other socials.
We need to look into that.
And that's about it.
Also, I'd like to complain to a manager, please.
Go ahead.
The manager is here somewhere.
Right.
I noticed last week when people were phoning up, they weren't getting introduced.
So I didn't know who they were or where they were from.
Oh, that's important.
You're right.
You're right.
Well, you knew who Rebel was.
He was introduced plenty.
Oh, who doesn't know who Rebel is?
Uh-huh.
In defense, we were preoccupied with that, I think.
Yeah, we were at war.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's probably distracting.
And the guy from Spain, I believe, is Santiago.
And I'm hoping he goes to Madrid meeting this Friday, because he needs to go to one.
Yeah.
If he's listening, go to the meeting, Santiago.
Hopefully more people go there, too, so he doesn't waste his time.
So it's just an indication of there's hackers everywhere, and there are interesting people,
and hopefully we can meet up.
Keep meeting up and mixing it up.
Mm-hmm.
We try.
I mean, hackers shenanigans.
What can I say?
That's right.
So much fun.
And I've got to sound more cheerful, because if I die, it's going to be sounding miserable
when you play back the things that I've been saying in the past.
Well, I always get positive vibes from you, no matter what you're saying.
Yeah, okay.
All right, listen, I'm going to clear down the line so somebody else can phone in.
Let's see if we can get quite a few callers calling in this week.
Could you encourage, could you speak directly to the next caller and encourage them to make
that phone call?
Yeah, I'll try.
Don't be shy.
Give it a try.
Phone up off the hook.
I don't know the number of my heart.
That's okay.
Wow, that was lyrical, what you just said.
That's brilliant.
All right, I'll speak to you guys soon.
You know me.
If I have any information, I'll contact you.
Sounds good.
Take care, Zap.
All right, take care, everyone.
Oh, and by the way, before I go, thank you, Gila, for moderating the channel.
We do appreciate it.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
Great.
All right.
Be well, Zap.
Take care, everyone.
Take care.
802-321-4225 is the phone number.
Country code, of course, is one, in case you're overseas, as Zap was.
802-321-4225.
Always good to hear from him.
And good to hear from people all over the world and all around the area as well.
Thank you.
Absolutely.
And, yeah.
Excuse me.
Frog in the throat.
But it's great to hear from our listeners.
And that is the reason we're doing this.
Off the Hook Overtime happened because we can't take phone calls on the radio hour we do anymore due to COVID.
So, please, keep justifying the existence of Off the Hook Overtime by using it for its purpose and giving us a call at 802-321-HACK.
That's 802-321-4225.
Or toll-free if you're in the U.S.
You can call 833-755-2600.
Thanks to our friend, Lucky.
And I believe we have a phone call.
Good evening.
You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
Is that supposed to be funny, Kyle?
That was an accident.
All right.
It was either picked up too fast or too slow.
Why do we have a busy signal?
It should be a reorder.
It should be, you know, fast busy or something else.
It's the simulated, the synthetic phone system.
All right.
Well, if that was you calling, call back.
Okay.
802-321-4225.
And are they calling back?
Yeah.
Let's see what happens if we pick up.
Good evening.
You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
Listen, a couple of things.
First of all, if you want to get past the ad blocker thing, the YouTube, you know,
you block origin works all right.
But if you are not logged in, then they will never, you never get that thing about the ad
block block.
So, you know, the easier way to do that, I guess, is maybe incognito window.
So, yeah, it's just a really easy way to get around that.
Second one is this whole thing.
I forgot what the program was called, but basically the AI poisoning the well issue you mentioned
earlier.
Nightshade.
Nightshade, right.
So, okay.
I was thinking about this a little bit, and it seems to me like the algorithms are trained
by people classifying the data, right?
And so, as of right now, yeah, you might be able to mess the program up a little bit,
but at some point, once people, yeah, I feel like all this is doing is going to make the
algorithms smarter, because they're going to learn how to recognize the errant pixels
or whatever it is you're throwing in there.
And, you know, over time, they'll eventually evolve to be able to resist these things.
It's, I don't know, anyway, it's, maybe you guys can share some thoughts about that.
I think you're onto it, the sort of feedback loops you get into, and as was said a little
bit ago, sort of arms race, and also, I think it contributes ultimately to withholding, not
contributing, not creating, not saying a word, not letting the algorithm, not letting it know.
Yeah, but, I mean, at the end of the day, people do publish stuff.
They do communicate.
They, you know, we're not solitary individuals, and something is getting put out into the world,
and, you know, machines get it, but before the machines get it, the machines have to be
trained, and that's generally speaking by humans who are classifying the data, and I don't
know, it's just, it got me thinking about sort of what, how this type of stuff might actually
make these things a little bit more resistant, more resilient, or, I guess, resistant to
this, you know, to these types of polluting the data, or, I'm not even sure what you'd
call it.
Yeah, no, interesting point.
Go ahead, Gila.
Caller, can you introduce yourself, please?
Oh.
Yeah, okay, so actually, Gila, I'm glad you asked me that.
However you want.
I remember a few, a few months ago, I remember you told me that the AIs had a, or whatever
it was, the text-to-speech things had a very, very difficult time with your name, right?
Yeah.
So, I'm going to spell it for you, and why don't you see if you can figure it out, because
nobody can ever get it.
Wow.
Okay.
All right, you ready?
Ready.
Ready.
All right.
K-R-Y-Z-K-C-H-47.
Oh, come on.
Yeah, anyway.
All right.
It's a joke.
I'll talk to you guys later.
Chris, Chris, I don't know, something.
Well played, yeah.
What, he's gone?
I believe the caller said goodbye.
That's what happens.
That's when you ask somebody to identify themselves.
That's what happens.
I hit the button right when I heard the tone, because they did say goodbye.
All right.
All right.
Oh, Alex is back.
Welcome.
I am.
I'm back.
Sorry about that, guys.
You know?
Is the fire out yet, or are they still working on it?
The fire is, no, it's still not raging.
I warned you about cigars on the air in that office with all the paper, and well, now you've
learned.
And that's it.
It all happens.
So catch me up.
What have we been doing?
We're not catching you up.
We're just having a conversation.
We've talked about AI and things like that.
We're not going over everything we've talked about.
And Zap called.
And this guy, his name we couldn't pronounce, called.
Oh, you mean Kryzik?
Fine, fine.
Yes.
Yeah.
What about Rebel?
Has Rebel called you?
We just went through a whole thing, and we were finally finished talking about him, and
now he's being brought up again.
This is almost like him not being banned, because we're talking about him all the time.
That individual has been...
He's banned this week.
He's banned.
So we should stop talking and move on, so we can get past the ban and go back to normal
in two weeks.
As far as I can tell, that individual has been abiding by the ban, so let's move on.
All right.
Good.
We all appreciate that.
802-321-4225 is our phone number, so if anyone else is out there, 802-321-HACK is
the number to get us on.
Country code of one.
Yeah.
So I guess, Alex, since you've been away for a while, any thoughts on your mind you'd
like to share?
Yeah, maybe.
I guess maybe a couple of things.
I'm curious.
I would love to have some listener calls about this.
I finally bit the bullet and bought one of these Flipper Zero things.
Have you seen this?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
They just seem like a lot of fun, and I'm very excited to get it in the mail.
It's just, you know, it seems like it hasn't shipped.
I've ordered it a while ago now, and it just hasn't shipped yet.
But, yeah, I mean, have you guys played with these at all?
Oh, absolutely.
You have a kid, right?
I do.
How old?
Two.
Not that one.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
There's the...
Oh, wait, wait, wait.
No, I thought you meant two years old.
No, how old is the oldest kid?
The oldest kid is 10.
Okay, yeah, that's perfect.
The youngest one is five.
Okay, that's almost perfect.
But the 10-year-old can teach the other one.
Yeah, but the 10-year-old with the Flipper Zero, stand back and just watch what happens,
is what I'm saying.
Really?
Yeah, yeah.
And you'll become very popular, too, in case, you know, polls need to be raised.
Yeah, well, he's already started lockpicking, so, you know, he's well on his way.
Good.
I think the Flipper Zero thing will be just another way for father and son to bond.
Oh, no, you're going to be kicked out.
It's going to be his Flipper Zero.
Really?
Maybe he'll show you what he's done with it, but, yeah, just stay out of the way.
All right, all right.
You know, I'm all for that, too.
That's totally fine with me.
You can get two.
Yeah, they're really fun to play with, and I would just suggest maybe getting, like,
a battery pack to plug in and keep it charged for longer periods, because you'll have so
much fun, you'll wear the battery out.
I mean, it's a pretty good battery, but if you're actually using it, you're going to...
Just the learning curve requires that, so you're going to be charging it up a bit, and
when you're out and about, make plans to keep it charged so you can make use of it.
You know, as much time as you devote to it is what it'll give back to you.
So if you play with it all the time, you'll learn all kinds of things that it can do.
If you just look at it once a week, well, it's going to seem like it doesn't do much.
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.
I mean, and have you played with it with the Wi-Fi dev board?
Used it for, you know, Wi-Fi-related stuff as well?
No, not yet.
Okay.
But I have storage in it, and I have captured some things, and read up on the different systems
to look for that it can interact with, and am looking to hear what other people are doing
too.
And I've talked about it with people, and other people's kids have been doing exactly what I
think Emanuel is talking about, basically taking over, because this thing has IR, so
baseline, you got your remote for the TV is completely controlled.
That's taken care of.
It's a good baseline, as it says, Swiss Army knife, but it is just stuff, protocols and stuff
that's everywhere that isn't so easy to interact with without something like this.
And while you can steal cars with this, don't steal cars with this.
It's not a good idea, especially in New York City.
But yeah, it can intercept electronic signals and copy them, and you have all kinds of fun,
but it's not the right path.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think that's certainly understood.
I'm really looking forward to playing with it, and it seems like quite a versatile device.
Yeah, and if you're building stuff like access control, you can use it to test it.
So you can pretend you're sort of an adversary for your own security system.
All of that applies to this, and that is how it is used professionally.
So, you know, that's a consideration.
It does, as it is able to do multiple things, it has a multitude of uses, not just the sort
of nefarious, as we're sort of implying.
And also, make sure you get it from a trusted source, too, because there are fakes that are
out there.
You've got to be careful.
Yeah, I shouldn't get a flipper zero from Canal Street.
Well, I don't know.
You know, there's reputable places on Canal Street, but, you know, just check your sources
and make sure it's real.
The first thing you do is upgrade the software, too.
It's going to prompt you to do that, and just get familiar with all of the stuff and get
it up to date.
Mm-hmm.
All right.
802-321-4225.
We don't have a call yet?
No, I'm waiting for it.
Okay.
You know, if we don't get calls, then we're just going to peter out, because, you know,
we're nothing without our listeners and our callers.
802-321-HACK.
See?
No one's saying anything.
I'm talking about flipper, taking care of it just like a Tamagotchi.
Yeah.
Yes, Kayla.
Go ahead.
Yes.
So, oh, people are chiming in about flipper zeros.
Alex Santiago wants to warn you that if you give your older child the flipper, you're going
to get locked out of the car.
Yeah.
No, that's true.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And flipper zeros have been confiscated at some airports.
So, thank you, Fun Socks, for that tip.
Yeah.
Don't take it everywhere.
Be careful where you're taking it.
Wasn't there a country that banned them?
Some country, I thought, banned them as well.
Brazil?
Oh, Brazil?
Importing in Brazil.
Yeah.
What's that?
What was it?
Amazon actually banned them.
They were available on Amazon for a time, but they delisted the item because they claimed
it was like a nefarious hacking tool and something that the site that sells all the garbage in
the world doesn't want to sell.
It is a nefarious hacking tool, but it's also a good hacking tool.
You know, things can be used for good or evil.
This reminds me.
Oh, go ahead.
Sorry, Kyle.
No, carry on.
This had nothing to do with.
Oh, no, it's just a sort of parallel story.
The eBay settlement over exhaust hacking was some sort of thing that bypasses exhaust
on diesel trucks, and eBay had to settle with them.
I think it was like 2.3.
Well, I'll find a story about it, but it is sort of parallel.
It's like, okay, we have these marketplaces.
You have sort of official retailers and then these secondary marketplaces.
How much does Amazon need to actually review things in these marketplaces?
And eBay, of course, has its own sort of marketplaces, people that regularly sell and
import items and sell them en masse through that site.
So they were actually held liable for all of these trucks that were basically, it's called
rolling coal.
It's like blowing all this fuel and basically messing with the combustion and the exhaust
filtering systems.
And it's bad for the air and lends to road rage, I think.
But anyway, so that came to mind.
Wow.
I'll find a story about it.
These are people who bought trucks on eBay?
No, no, no.
It's just a part that they were adding to vehicles.
And it was modifying, illegally modifying, violating EPA regulations, actually.
Clean Air Act.
Well, it's 45 past the hour.
If by 50 past the hour we have not gotten another call, 802-321-4225, we are going to
say goodnight.
So consider that a shot across the bow.
802-321-4225, our phone number.
We just want to talk to our listeners and see what's going on, any questions or observations,
adventures, and things like that.
Everybody's welcome.
Minus one.
And after our next show, that will be rescinded.
So, yes.
Sometimes you have to get strict.
Yeah.
And we love new callers.
You know, people calling from stranger geographies.
But if you're an old caller, give a ring to them.
And we have a call.
Okay, great.
That worked.
And good evening.
You're on Off the Hook Overtime.
Go ahead.
Good evening.
Hey, how you doing?
I'm Andrean from New Jersey.
How you doing?
I'm good.
I'm good.
Hope you're well as well.
Yeah, we're good.
I was just calling to ask, is the copyright law around large language models really the
same, because wouldn't, you know, this apply to a person rather than a machine duplicating?
Like, machine duplications are clearly duplications.
And all the large language model really does is reinterpret something that exists, but it's
a machine doing it.
It's not like a human, like, you know, changing it or transforming it.
A machine is doing the transformation.
So, is that protected by copyright law, do you think?
So, one of the things that I'm trying to understand here is, are you asking whether, when a machine
is doing the copying and the duplication, that copyright laws would apply to the machine
itself?
Is that it?
Well, to the work that the machine creates, would it be copyright infringement at that point
because it was a machine?
Like, if I go and read a bunch of books and then write my own book, it's obviously not
copyright infringement.
But if I pour a bunch of books into, you know, what is essentially a machine that disassembles
books and then learns how to reassemble them, reassemble words into things that, you know,
are like books, you know, it's not exactly a person, right?
It's a machine doing the work.
Yeah.
So, I just thought that maybe it would be a different case.
You know, it wouldn't be as easily supported as, you know, fair use because it's essentially
a very advanced photocopier, you know?
Yeah.
I mean, but the thing is, you know, there's always somebody behind the machine, somebody
that programmed the machine, somebody that, you know, runs the infrastructure, design the
algorithm, essentially put this thing to work, right?
And so, but I see what your point is, too, though, because if you argue on the one hand
that images that are generated, or images, let's put it in the active voice, images that
a machine generates through some kind of artificial intelligence, well, the copyright to those
particular images may be dubious and they can't be considered the creator in certain jurisdictions.
So, if that's the case, then could they be on the hook for copyright infringement on that
same token?
I think that's the thrust of your argument, right, Collar?
Yeah, yeah, essentially.
Yeah.
I mean, that's an interesting point.
You know, I don't know if I hadn't given that a lot of thought, but I think that obviously
the legal theory behind all of these copyright infringement claims is that, well, somebody created
this thing, somebody gave it instructions to ingest the data in the first place.
So, even if the output isn't necessarily exactly the same or some kind of copyrighted or some
kind of copyright infringement, let's say, the ingestion of those images as part of the
training to produce whatever the output is could itself be considered the direct copyright
infringement, copyright infringing act.
Does that clear slightly, I hope?
Yeah, yeah, that does shed some light on the subject.
Thank you.
Of course, absolutely.
All right, thank you for that call.
Very interesting.
And I think that was a new caller as well, so thank you for calling us.
802-321-4225.
Is there anyone else out there going into the closing minutes of Off the Hook Overtime?
Our phone number, 802-321-HACK.
And again, not on next week, but on in two weeks.
Go ahead, Rob.
While we're waiting, we did have a listener on Mastodon ping us about, we were discussing
whether there's a single item that could post your posts across all of your different social
media accounts, and a user called Adam on Mastodon pointed us toward a GitHub project called
Socioboard, which appears to be an open source attempt to build something just such as that.
And it looks like a very interesting project and something I might like playing with.
I like the sound of that.
It's kind of like sociopath, but Socioboard.
I just like the sound, but yeah, I mean, it's an admirable project, and if it actually
gets to work, it can be really, really useful.
Of course, for some reason, these companies fight this sort of thing tooth and nail.
It's like they don't want people communicating using their platform if they're using a different
platform to get there.
It's always like this emerging thing where they're wanting people to develop, wanting
people to come to their platform, and then it reaches a critical point where they're
going the other way, trying to isolate and create and close their so-called walled garden
and so forth.
So I remember there were a lot of tools.
I'm sure there are others.
So thanks for mentioning that.
And I think we have another phone call.
Good evening.
You're on Off The Hook Overtime.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
I just wanted to know if you had any meetings, off the hook meetings in New Jersey?
No.
Do we?
I can check.
I can check the website.
I think we do.
Rob, do you know this?
And by the way, can you introduce yourself?
Jeff Jefferson.
Okay.
Rob, are you able to tell or?
Give me one second.
Okay.
Give me one second.
2600.com.
Yes.
That's our website.
Slash meetings.
Yes.
Yes.
We do have a meeting in Somerville, New Jersey, a 2600 meeting at the Bliss Coffee Lounge
on 14 East Main Street in Somerville.
There you go.
And we also, like over the years of the New York City 2600 meeting in Manhattan, we have
very often had folks come in from New Jersey as it's pretty easy on transit.
So if you're interested in coming into New York, you could go to nyc2600.net where all the info is for that meeting.
Or you could just go to the Citigroup Center on 53rd Street and Lexington Avenue in the food court this Friday.
People in New York City can go to New Jersey, too, because it's that close.
Exactly.
And, caller, if you're in the southern part of New Jersey, and it would be easier for you to get to Philadelphia than it would be for New York City.
This is an even - no, it's not.
It's an odd month.
So the meeting will be at the 30th Street Station at the food court outside Taco Bell.
That's right.
They alternate in Philadelphia, don't they?
They do.
They do.
Odd months at the food court at 30th Street Station, even months at a place called Iffy Books.
So, caller, if you're in Somerville, New Jersey, we've got you covered.
If you're in North Jersey, we've got you covered.
If you're in South Jersey, we've got you covered.
Also, if there's another meeting -
You're in North Jersey?
Yeah, North Jersey.
Like, North Jersey City, Hoboken.
Yeah.
I don't think we have one there that we know of.
But where is Somerville?
Is that North, South, Central?
Yeah, I think that's more like Central, I think.
Okay.
I think that's more like New Jersey.
Uh-huh.
Go ahead, Rob.
But also, if you're interested in being the one who starts a 2600 meeting where there isn't one yet,
you can go to 2600.com slash meetings, and all the info is there for you on how you can get one started,
and we can help spread the word.
I may actually do that.
I may actually do that.
I'm not a hacker.
I just, you know, I love the hacker community, but I'm not really a hacker personally.
I just love the hacker community, basically.
Well, we would welcome you at any of our meetings, so feel free.
I mean, there are a lot of us who fit that criteria, so we hang around.
Thank you very much.
All right.
Thanks for your call.
Have a good night.
And yes, if you go to 2600.com slash meetings, you'll see a whole listing of meetings for November,
and there's also a link to look at the guidelines for starting a new meeting.
So click on that, and you'll learn everything that you want to learn.
But, you know, if you're in upper New York a little bit, we have meetings in Albany.
Yeah, I think at the Starbucks, Stuyvesant Plaza, we have meetings in Rochester as well.
So they're all over the place.
We have meetings in Connecticut.
It's true.
And all over the world.
Japan.
We have meetings in Japan, and we have meetings in Madrid and London and Manchester.
Several.
And we have in Sweden.
Sweden, yes.
A couple in Sweden.
A couple in Sweden and in Spain and in Portugal and Ireland and Paris, France.
I could just read city names now.
I'm not going to, but I could.
And we are always interested in adding to this list if you want to be the one who starts one in an underserved area where there is not yet one.
All these meetings were started by someone at some point, and you can be that person for your local hacker community and, you know, just help make things happen.
And, you know, if you ever want to just ask the question, what is a 2600 meeting, go no further than Bard.
A 2600 meeting is a monthly gathering of people interested in technology, hacking, and digital culture.
The meetings are typically held in public places, such as libraries, cafes, or community centers.
They are open to everyone, regardless of their technical expertise.
2600 meetings typically feature a variety of activities, such as, talks and presentations on technical topics, workshops on how to use different tools and technologies, discussions about current events and trends in the tech world, hacker demos and performances, socializing and networking.
2600 meetings are a great way to learn about new technologies, meet other people interested in tech, and share your own knowledge and experience.
They are also a great opportunity to get involved in the hacker community and to support the work of 2600 magazine.
2600 meetings are held all over the world, and there is likely to be one near you.
You can find a list of upcoming meetings on the 2600 website.
Here are some of the benefits of attending a 2600 meeting.
Learn about new technologies and hacking techniques.
Meet other people interested in technology and digital culture.
Share your own knowledge and experience with others.
Get involved in the hacker community.
Support the work of 2600 magazine.
If you are interested in technology, hacking, or digital culture, I encourage you to attend a 2600 meeting.
It is a great way to learn new things, meet new people, and get involved in the community.
Kind of repeating yourself.
All right.
Thank you for that, Bart.
Yeah, he does go on and on a bit, but what's with the 2600?
I mean, I know it's how the British say it, but he got it right.
The first sentence, he said a 2600 meeting, but then he started saying ,600.
I didn't pick up on that at the first instance of, the first utterance of the number.
Well, we can always go back and check.
A 2600 meeting is a monthly gathering of people interested in technology.
Shut up.
How do you make it say that?
That is interesting that it then changed when it was mid-paragraph.
But I will say that that is so true.
Meetings, I can't tell you how many times there's just stuff that people have brought.
Interesting hardware or the perennial old laptop that somebody wants to get the Wi-Fi working
and see if they can, however slow, make it work or change out the operating system or
they're having trouble with something.
But there's always somebody that brings some show-and-tell, I guess, or something really
just weird they noticed or something new that maybe not a lot of people have seen yet.
And they're inviting others to check it out or play with it or learn about it.
So that is very, very true to life.
I'm impressed.
He didn't really get anything wrong on that or the previous thing about off the hook.
So, yeah, maybe he's learning.
Well, I liked how towards the end of the diatribe about the 2600 meetings.
Now you're saying it.
Now you're saying 2600.
Wow.
Look at that.
I think, you know, maybe we should all just, you know, they don't seem to get anything wrong.
There's no comma.
If there was a comma, you'd say it that way.
There's no comma.
2600 magazines.
That just rolls off the tongue like that, doesn't it?
But I did like how he started proselytizing and encouraging you to come.
Multiple times.
Yeah.
That's something to behold.
Interesting stuff.
But, I mean, look, they are a hell of a lot of fun.
I mean, I don't know.
I can't imagine the 2600 meetings being better than how they were back in the 90s when the payphones were there and people used to call in.
I mean, like, that's just a bygone era.
Yeah.
Well, the payphones are gone.
I was just going to mention, and you kind of spoke to it, the amorphous sort of changing quality.
It is of whomever attends, right?
It is only that dynamic, that changing aspect of people coming and going and checking back in with the meeting.
And it can take on a sort of consistent form based on geography, but it could also be something that doesn't really have a form for a while.
And then maybe some people take over, or as Zap always updates us, it's, you know, changing location, just keeping it nailed down is a lot of work and takes dedication.
So, that's something to keep in mind, that it is, you might not always have the same experience, but it is vital.
Like, in going, you make the meetings.
So, I just want to reiterate that.
Our meetings in New York City are back at the original location where the first 2600 meeting took place, Citigroup Center.
It was called Citicorp Center back then, but they've really redone that place.
And it's a very impressive hangout and all kinds of places you can just go and have private meetings with people or just congregate with everybody.
So, it's definitely an experience.
Hey, I think that's going to do it for us.
We're pretty much out of time, but I want to thank everybody who called in, thank everybody who participated, who was on the chat, and who writes us emails and things like that.
We will be back in two weeks, so enjoy the time off from us.
And any closing words, folks?
Go ahead, Gila.
Yes.
If there are any timepieces in your home that are not going to automatically reset themselves this weekend in the United States, don't forget to do that.
We're falling backwards this weekend.
I love standard time, and I'm very excited.
Yeah, you know what?
Why don't we just stick at standard time?
Daylight savings time is stupid.
I don't like it.
Standard time is fine.
Switching to that around the clock makes sense.
Switching to daylight time around the clock is dumb.
We tried that.
I was a kid when we tried that, and a bunch of people got hit by cars while waiting for school buses.
So that's not a good idea, and that's going to happen again if we decide to do that.
So standard time, yeah.
Come on.
We don't need this daylight savings.
It's the most wonderful time of the year, and it starts on Saturday night.
So roll back your microwave.
Hang on.
It's going to get darker later or earlier?
Earlier.
Everything's going to be earlier.
So the sun will come up a little bit earlier, but also it'll get darker earlier.
Yeah.
All right.
I always have a little trouble which one happens, but yeah.
All right.
So write to us, O-T-H at 2600.com.
Don't forget, 2600 meetings this Friday, and we'll see you in a couple.
Good night.
Good night.