Chaos Computer Club Interview
by John Drake
Not much is known about the Chaos Computer Club, except for the abundance of scary "you should hire me because of hackers like them" tales peddled by computer security consultants.
Further hype about the "mythical hacker elite" has also been perpetuated by the worldwide media coverage when a story is picked up by a major news service.
This past fall two members of the Chaos Computer Club were passing through my metropolis. They decided to hunt me down with the little information they had about me. Since they didn't have the street number, the duo spent a night ringing the doorbells up and down the street asking for John Drake... Their eventual success resulted in this interview.
When was the Chaos Computer Club formed?
Hmmm, I can tell you the date when the first Datenschleuder ("The Data Slingshot") was delivered. This was in February 1982 and it wasn't photocopied. The club must have been around since 1981. The reason there were some contacts between the hackers was that there was an article in a newspaper in Germany... I think it was an ad, in fact - some of us trying to find people interested in computers, in a paper called Tagensign - an alternative newspaper. This is how they got together.
After this, I think there was an article about hackers - people who work with computers and that mentioned the Datenschleuder. It was in Der Spigel, like Newsweek here, or Time, and so suddenly many people phoned an wanted to get the Datenschleuder. Then from there the second issue of Datenschleuder was printed a lot, then the Chaos Computer Club.
Who then started the Chaos Computer Club?
Wau Holland, he's the originator. He had extra rooms and he gave the rooms to people who came to visit him before it was a club, and the rooms of the Chaos Computer Club are also next door to his place in Hamburg.
Where does Peter Glaser come in?
In 1982, or even before that... very early. A Peter Glaser lived in Hamburg. He worked with computers for a text processing company. He had so many contacts with other people. Swen Yacktoff lived with him. Swen was the first to have contacts with Wau Holland. He was one of the first, far before there was a Datenschleuder, or anything of this kind, who had contacts with Wau Holland.
He lived together with Peter so there were other contacts there and Peter would come in contact with people who were using computers for more than only typewriting. So Peter became a "hacker." I don't know if he is really a hacker... it's a silly word. When he got a modem for a birthday present from someone From the Chaos Computer Club, from that time you only see his back. Yes, when you wanted to communicate with him you had to buy a modem yourself. But, that's over now, he only goes online very seldom.
How is the Club set up in relation to Datenschleuder?
That's very hard to say because as an officially registered club it's only been a year now. Before then it was just the Chaos Compute Club. But then you need someone for the bank account and you need a registration.
It's a galactical connection without structures. Anyone can come without having to be a member.
How many people receive Datenschleuder?
We are printing two thousand. I think, but only about 800 to 1000 are actually mailed.
How has "the press" looked at the Chaos Computer Club? You always see reports about the Chaos Computer Club breaking into one system or another...
When you give them (the press) something to eat, they all come running.
Examples?
When you hear we have just gone into a databank, everyone from the German press will come and write about it. In the beginning this was very fine and some good actions came about because of the Btx hack... now there is the NASA hack which is very famous.
But often there are journalists who think "What can we do in our newspaper?" and then they say, "Ah yes, something with Computers - let's phone the Chaos Computer Club. Is there anyone here with the number?" then they phone and say, "Please show us some hacking, let's see how you do it." And you can't do it because it is forbidden in Germany. It's not the reason why the club exists: for journalists to let people know there are hackers.
When a byte somewhere goes wrong they always phone the Chaos Computer Club, because they think we can fix it on we know what has happened or who did it. Someone once told me that because of the Chaos Computer Club he had sold a lot more of his security software and he thanked us.
Is the main aim of the group computer literacy or is there a faction inside the group for hackers?
There are many different people who think of many different aims of the club, some of them socially acceptable ways of working with computers. Some of them are hackers but not all of them. We are not hackers.
Is it then a straight computer club?
No, it's not a normal computer club. It's more of a "Chaos Communications Club" than Chaos Computer Club. I don't think you need the computer. It's more for people who think more than hack, perhaps. There are also hackers in the club, sure, that's a bit of the problem because hackers have different interests than people like us who are more interested in communication and art. Whether they're just freaks that know a lot about the technical side...
There are other people into real live Hacking, like showing press passes to get into things, that's real hacking.
What type of laws exist in Germany to deter hacking?
At the moment when you change something in someone else's computer, it's already an offense. So when you login and you're not supposed to login, you change something because it's reported somewhere that you have logged in. So you have already changed something if you follow the law strictly. I think that they are still working on these laws.
Has anyone been caught and fined on a hacking charge?
The only, thing that i can think of is Steve in prison, but he hasn't been charged.
Can you give me some examples of media distortion?
There was this bit with a bank in Hamburg, on a Videotex system in Germany. It has many many bugs and many mistakes in it and when you have an overflow of data, anything could happen. So in this way they found out the password of this bank in Hamburg and they used this, and then the Chaos Computer Club ran a section of information pages on the Videotex system. They also have a movie in there which you can look at but you have to give a donation for looking at the movie - five dollars, which is the maximum sum for Looking at a Videotex page.
Well, they made the bank look at this page over and over again. They wrote a little program so it was always calling it back again and had it run over the weekend so no one from the bank was there to stop it. In the end it was 150,000 marks worth of donations from the bank to the Chaos Computer Club. The Chaos Computer Club could have claimed the money from the bank because there are no laws saying that this wasn't O.K. They didn't, but they showed the national data security office what is possible. The bank was very thankful for the hint.
The host operator of the system said, "It's only because of the Chaos Computer Club that the Btx Videotex system is a flop." They were telling us at the demonstration of Btx that it was because of the Chaos Computer Club that people won't use it.
Also, whenever there is a show of the Btx Videotex system, people call up the Chaos Computer Club's movie on the demonstration accounts.
How does the phone system work in regard to modems? Is it digital or a clunking mechanical system?
You still have the clunk, clunk, clunk system in most towns. They have just started to change to the digital system.
If you want a modem you have to buy it or rent it from the Post Office. Or you use a Hayes modem which is illegal. The modems from the Post Office aren't very powerful. There isn't any good software to work with them and they're very expensive. In Germany it is forbidden to do anything yourself with the telephone line. There is a joke that you even need permission when you use a pen to dial the phone.
If you need a longer cable you have to go to the Post Office and pay 65 marks and fill out a request form for a longer cable to your telephone.
So phone phreaking is not a hot subject in Germany?
There are sometimes people who try to make Blue Boxes or things of these kind but I don't know if they work. There was one guy we knew who had a thing like this, but he disappeared into prison or somewhere. We have to try... Maybe it will work when the new systems are installed. Telephone calls are very expensive in Germany, especially long-distance calls and so it would be a useful thing.
We are charged for all the local calls in units of eight minutes in the day and in 12 minutes at night.
What happened to Steffen Werrney when he went to France?
Steffen was invited to a security congress to report about what happened with NASA and to explain what is possible in these networks. He Was arrested right away when he arrived at the airport in France and questioned for 24 hours. They kept him there waiting while they had absolutely no evidence whatsoever that he was in any way involved in the NASA story.
What actually happened with NASA as opposed to what the newspapers said?
They're not members of the Chaos Computer Club. They were one year working for a company and suddenly they found out that they were in the NASA network. After a while of working inside there, they one day began to understand that it was very dangerous.
There are stories about the CIA - they don't ask questions, but shoot first. I don't believe these stories myself, but then I think the Americans must be silly...
Then one day they phoned and came to the Chaos Computer Club and said to the people there, "We have some computer print-out and we don't want to be killed by it. What shall we do?" Steffen and Wau said O.K., keep quiet and we will use our contacts. Then the machine started. They tried to give information to the CIA via the German secret service. They saw that one week later the account was still working.
They gave notice to the company that was manufacturing the terminal software. Then there was a new version distributed that still carried the same mistake.
What did the communication Software allow you to do?
It allowed you to look at the user list. Usually it tells you that you have no permission to look at it or do anything there. It gave the warning in the program but it wouldn't cut you off. You could go farther despite it saying you couldn't.
So they went in and gave themselves privileges in the system, and they put in these Trojan horses - programs that wiped out all traces of themselves in the system so no one knew. It also copied itself into other systems on the network and brought back information about passwords to the kids. They have been in 135 different systems.
Die Hacker Bibel 1 & 2, what is it?
You find some reprints of some American stuff in it (TAP). Complete reprints of old Datenschleuder, and some articles you will only find in the book. You can find this over the counter in any bookstore.
I think it has an ISBN number. Die Hacker Bibel 2 is due soon. It's been printed. We're waiting for Steffen to send us copies. Die Hacker Bibel 3 is now being worked on.
