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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:34:24 -0800 (PST)
From: martykaiser <marty..._at_prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: [TSCM-L] {3411} Re: Receiver oscillator as transmitter
To: TSCM-L2006_at_googlegroups.com
In-Reply-To: <946d87a20902270527t2252f40ft688030085c316ccc_at_mail.gmail.com>
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Humberto
=A0
This brings back a lot of happy memories.=A0 I=A0taught surveillance/counte=
rmeasure at=A0Army Intelligence, Fort Holabird, MD.=A0 Although the curricu=
lum was built around my equipment there were several of the newly introduce=
d Mason A2's to play with.=A0 As I tuned to a bug I noticed (on the scope) =
that the LO of somebody else=A0zeroing in on the same frequency.=A0 We enjo=
yed playing LO tag up and down the bands.=A0 I thought I'd try to recover a=
udio from the LO.=A0 At the time the primary bug was the Kel T1/R2.=A0 They=
were very narrow band (500Hz) FM units.=A0 I moved one of the A2's LO to t=
he R2 frequency and wallah! room audio.=A0 And that's the rest of the story=
.
=A0
Marty
--- On Fri, 2/27/09, Humberto Sod re <hrs..._at_gmail.com> wrote:
From: Humberto Sodre <hrs..._at_gmail.com>
Subject: [TSCM-L] {3411} Re: Receiver oscillator as transmitter
To: TSCM-..._at_googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, February 27, 2009, 8:27 AM
Marty,
=A0
Can you give me=A0additional informations=A0about "Room conversation would =
also FM the LO but nobody wanted to know that"?
Thanks in advance.
Humberto.
2009/2/26 martykaiser <marty..._at_prodigy.net>
Hi Reg
=A0
Mason A-2's were notorius from local oscillator leakage.=A0 I'm talking mil=
liwatts.=A0 Room conversation would also FM the LO but nobody wanted to kno=
w that.
=A0
Marty W3VCG
--- On Thu, 2/26/09, Reginald Curtis <reginal..._at_hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Reginald Curtis <reginal..._at_hotmail.com>
Subject: [TSCM-L] {3394} Re: Receiver oscillator as transmitter
To: tscm-..._at_googlegroups.com
Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:59 PM
Humberto,
=A0
Sorry for the belated reply to your posting. Other matters active at the ti=
me and I just let that day's emails=A0slip after that. Anyway, two points r=
elating to radio receiver uninteded transmissions by ships using 1930's (an=
d perhaps earlier)=A0technology during WW II.
=A0
1. Apparently, many if not all, were using the earlier regerative technolog=
y as opposed to a superhetrodyne circuit.=20
=A0
2. Probably not a major item but interesting. At the beginning of the war m=
any ships were wired for 110 volts DC as opposed to the usual 110 AC. I am =
not sure how long this continued to be the norm.
=A0
Thanks again,
Reg Curtis/VE9RWC
=A0=20
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 15:32:33 -0300
From: hrs..._at_gmail.com
To: TSCM-..._at_googlegroups.com
Subject: [TSCM-L] {2793} Re: Receiver oscillator as transmitter
=A0
Red,=20
Forgive me for my mistakes,=A0because I=B4m not fluent in English.
Here in Brazil=A0in my=A0Engineering of Communications Course, I=A0had Dr. =
Theodor Helmut Schreyer as a teacher. He was a German engineer who took a P=
hD in Berlin in the year 1939. In his doctoral thesis he submitted a new ci=
rcuit, which was a flip-flop mounted with the gas valves, since there was n=
ot=A0the technology of semiconductors only discovered in the 50's. He confi=
rmed that at the beginning of the World War II the=A0receivers of German su=
bmarines had not=A0buffers and the=A0RF signal from antenna followed direct=
ly to the mixer where it was mixed with the local oscillator signal resulti=
ng=A0FI. This=A0causes that only with the receivers ON, the RF signal produ=
ced by local oscillator=A0was radiated by the antenna, which=A0allow Britis=
h Navy to locate the signal from the local oscillator of radio receivers, a=
nd destroy the German submarines.=20
Dr. Schreyer was instructed by German Navy to develop a solution and he cre=
ated a=A0intermediary=A0stage=A0(buffer) between antenna and mixer, which=
=A0was an=A0amplifier that receives the signal from the antenna, amplifies =
and delivery to the mixer,=A0thrn=A0mixed to=A0the signal from the local os=
cillator, resulting in=A0FI, which is processed and demodulated in the foll=
owing stages, as is currently the case with any superheterodine receiver.=
=20
After the end of World War II, Dr. Schreyer, unlike many other scientists w=
ho went to the United States or to Russia, came to Brazil where he lived un=
til the end of his life as head of=A0Brazilian Postal Services=A0Laboratory=
and as a professor in the Military=A0 Telecommunications Engineering Insti=
tute, a=A0Brazilian Army school where I was graduated=A0as communications e=
ngineer in 1979. He was one of the best and most capable teachers I had.
Regards,
Humberto Rigotti
2008/8/6 <reginal..._at_hotmail.com>
In World War II, there was some fear that German submarines were
locating Allied ships by 'dfing' oscillations from ships' receivers.
The following comes from the July 2008 issue of 'Practical Wireless',
a British magazine dealing with Amateur Radio. The article, at pages
44-46, is titled "Amateur Radio Personality" and gives a career
profile of G3IK who started out as a junior radio operator in the
merchant marine in 1943. He later became an electronics engineer. One
very interesting portion deals with his experiences as an operator
during the war and relates to the use of a ship's receiver as a
transmitter. The article commences with:
" Rob G3XFD: 'Thank you for agreeing to be featured as our Amateur
Radio Personality Ed! You've had a remarkable life and the letters
following your name, including MBE, surely reflect your adventures?
When did you first get interested in radio?'
Ed Chicken G3BIK: 'It's my pleasure to join you Rob, I'm delighted to
share my story to you for PW readers. My lifelong involvement with
radio began at 15 years old in 1943 using Morse code on and about
500kHz at the Colwyn Bay Wireless College, North Wales where I
obtained a PMG Certificate in Wireless Telegraphy.
Maritime receivers were still mainly t.r.f. [tuned radio frequency?]
types with reaction, but because the transmitters all used tone-
modulated carrier (m.c.w.), the receiver's reaction control was used
primarily to maximise the receiver's sensitivity, just on the verge
of, but not quite "plopping" into oscillation, such as would have been
necessary for reception of c.w.'
Rob G3XFD: 'Life in the Merchant Navy was incredibly dangerous in the
Second World War Ed!'
Ed G3BIK: 'Yes, it was risky as we crossed the Atlantic in slow
merchant ships. However, we were warned to avoid turning the
receiver's reaction [r.f. gain?] up too far whilst at sea, as it could
act as a transmitter on 500kHz enabling enemy U-boats to locate us!'
.....
Rob G3XFD: 'A narrow escape Ed, but I think that you have had some
more adventures and managed to =A0use your Spanish again very soon
afterwards?'
Ed G3BIK: 'Yes Rob, engine failure gave me my first opportunity to
break the mandatory radio silence on 500kHZ, to seek help via the
Americans in Panama. The IFF unit was used in earnest when an American
Catalina flying boat came to meet us. ....'
.......
Rob G3XFD: ' You obviously had an eventful war Ed! What direction did
your career take you in peacetime?'
Ed G3 BIK: 'Having left the Merchant Navy, I got a shore job mending
domestic wireless sets, a service in demand because new sets weren't
available. I applied for and was granted my own Amateur licence with
callsign G3BIK. My PMG certificate exempted me from exams but I was
still restricted to 10 watts of c.w. for the first year.
War surplus equipment became readily available at attractive prices
but I couldn't take real advantage of that because my parent's home
didn't have electricity! So, I acquired a battery-operated trawler-
band two valved [two-tubed] t.r.f. receiver with "reaction", I used
the house wireless-aerial and earth spike and began searching for
Amateur transmissions on the 160 metre top-band. To my great delight I
heard G6UP calling "CQ" in Morse, but only recognisable as c.w. tones
after turning up the "reaction".
My excitement was boundless, as was the frustration of not yet having
a transmitter to reply. That's when the wartime warning about the rash
use of 'reaction' sprang to mind, so I unplugged the h.t. wander-plug
and used it as a make-shift Morse key to tap out a response to G6UP in
hope that this would be my first ever G3BIK transmission.
Joy upon joy, he came back with "G3BIK de G6UP. UR 579c"". I was fully
readable and fairly strong but with some chirp! So the wartime concept
of receiver acting as transmitter was proven right!'
......"
The End.
Reg Curtis
--0-1142347489-1235766864=:85498
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Humberto</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This brings back a lot of happy memories. I taught surveill=
ance/countermeasure at Army Intelligence, Fort Holabird, MD. Alt=
hough the curriculum was built around my equipment there were several of th=
e newly introduced Mason A2's to play with. As I tuned to a bug I not=
iced (on the scope) that the LO of somebody <SPAN>else</SPAN> zeroing =
in on the same frequency. We enjoyed playing LO tag up and down the b=
ands. I thought I'd try to recover audio from the LO. At the ti=
me the primary bug was the Kel T1/R2. They were very narrow band (500=
Hz) FM units. I moved one of the A2's LO to the R2 frequency and wall=
ah! room audio. And that's the rest of the story.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Marty<BR>--- On <B>Fri, 2/27/09, Humberto Sod re <I><hr..._at_gmail.co=
m></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Humberto <SPAN>Sodre</SPAN> <hr..._at_gmail.com=
><BR>Subject: [TSCM-L] {3411} Re: Receiver oscillator as transmitter<BR>=
To: TSCM-..._at_googlegroups.com<BR>Date: Friday, February 27, 2009, 8:27 AM<B=
R><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv912579214>
<DIV>Marty,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Can you give me additional informations about "Room conversa=
tion would also FM the LO but nobody wanted to know that"?</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks in advance.</DIV>
<DIV>Humberto.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>2009/2/26 martykaiser <SPAN dir=3Dltr><<A href=
=3D"mailto:marty..._at_prodigy.net" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>marty..._at_pr=
odigy.net</A>></SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px=
0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV>Hi Reg</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Mason A-2's were notorius from local oscillator leakage. I'm tal=
king milliwatts. Room conversation would also FM the LO but nobody wa=
nted to know that.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Marty W3VCG<BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 2/26/09, Reginald Curtis <I><<A h=
ref=3D"mailto:reginal..._at_hotmail.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>regina=
l..._at_hotmail.com</A>></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Reginald Curtis <<A href=3D"mailto:reginal..=
._at_hotmail.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>reginal..._at_hotmail.com</A>>=
;<BR>Subject: [TSCM-L] {3394} Re: Receiver oscillator as transmitter<BR>To:=
<A href=3D"mailto:tscm-..._at_googlegroups.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollo=
w>tscm-..._at_googlegroups.com</A><BR>Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:59 =
PM<BR><BR>
<DIV>Humberto,<BR> <BR>Sorry for the belated reply to your posting. Ot=
her matters active at the time and I just let that day's emails slip a=
fter that. Anyway, two points relating to radio receiver uninteded transmis=
sions by ships using 1930's (and perhaps earlier) technology during WW=
II.<BR> <BR>1. Apparently, many if not all, were using the earlier re=
gerative technology as opposed to a superhetrodyne circuit. <BR> <BR>2=
. Probably not a major item but interesting. At the beginning of the war ma=
ny ships were wired for 110 volts DC as opposed to the usual 110 AC. I am n=
ot sure how long this continued to be the norm.<BR> <BR>Thanks again,<=
BR><BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#ff0033><STRONG>Reg Curtis/VE9RWC</STRONG></FONT></DIV><=
/DIV><BR><BR><BR> <BR>
<HR>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 15:32:33 -0300<BR>From: <A href=3D"mailto:hrs..._at_gmai=
l.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>hrs..._at_gmail.com</A><BR>To: <A href=
=3D"mailto:TSCM-..._at_googlegroups.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>TSCM-.=
.._at_googlegroups.com</A><BR>Subject: [TSCM-L] {2793} Re: Receiver oscillator=
as transmitter<BR><BR>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>Red, <BR><BR>Forgive me for my mistakes, because I=B4m =
not fluent in English.</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>Here in Brazil in my Engineering of Communications=
Course, I had Dr. Theodor Helmut Schreyer as a teacher. He was a Germ=
an engineer who took a PhD in Berlin in the year 1939. In his doctoral thes=
is he submitted a new circuit, which was a flip-flop mounted with the gas v=
alves, since there was not the technology of semiconductors only disco=
vered in the 50's. He confirmed that at the beginning of the World War II t=
he receivers of German submarines had not buffers and the RF=
signal from antenna followed directly to the mixer where it was mixed with=
the local oscillator signal resulting FI. This causes that only =
with the receivers ON, the RF signal produced by local oscillator was =
radiated by the antenna, which allow British Navy to locate the signal=
from the local oscillator of radio receivers, and destroy the German subma=
rines. <BR>Dr. Schreyer was instructed by German Navy to develop a
solution and he created a intermediary stage (buffer) betwe=
en antenna and mixer, which was an amplifier that receives the si=
gnal from the antenna, amplifies and delivery to the mixer, thrn =
mixed to the signal from the local oscillator, resulting in FI, w=
hich is processed and demodulated in the following stages, as is currently =
the case with any superheterodine receiver. <BR>After the end of World War =
II, Dr. Schreyer, unlike many other scientists who went to the United State=
s or to Russia, came to Brazil where he lived until the end of his life as =
head of Brazilian Postal Services Laboratory and as a professor i=
n the Military Telecommunications Engineering Institute, a Brazi=
lian Army school where I was graduated as communications engineer in 1=
979. He was one of the best and most capable teachers I had.</DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV>Humberto Rigotti<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>2008/8/6 <SPAN dir=3Dltr><<A href=3D"mailto:reginal..._at_hotmail.com"=
target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>reginal..._at_hotmail.com</A>></SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><BR>In=
World War II, there was some fear that German submarines were<BR>locating =
Allied ships by 'dfing' oscillations from ships' receivers.<BR>The followin=
g comes from the July 2008 issue of 'Practical Wireless',<BR>a British maga=
zine dealing with Amateur Radio. The article, at pages<BR>44-46, is titled =
"Amateur Radio Personality" and gives a career<BR>profile of G3IK who start=
ed out as a junior radio operator in the<BR>merchant marine in 1943. He lat=
er became an electronics engineer. One<BR>very interesting portion deals wi=
th his experiences as an operator<BR>during the war and relates to the use =
of a ship's receiver as a<BR>transmitter. The article commences with:<BR><B=
R>" Rob G3XFD: 'Thank you for agreeing to be featured as our Amateur<BR>Rad=
io Personality Ed! You've had a remarkable life and the letters<BR>followin=
g your name, including MBE, surely reflect your adventures?<BR>When
did you first get interested in radio?'<BR><BR>Ed Chicken G3BIK: 'It's my =
pleasure to join you Rob, I'm delighted to<BR>share my story to you for PW =
readers. My lifelong involvement with<BR>radio began at 15 years old in 194=
3 using Morse code on and about<BR>500kHz at the Colwyn Bay Wireless Colleg=
e, North Wales where I<BR>obtained a PMG Certificate in Wireless Telegraphy=
.<BR><BR>Maritime receivers were still mainly t.r.f. [tuned radio frequency=
?]<BR>types with reaction, but because the transmitters all used tone-<BR>m=
odulated carrier (m.c.w.), the receiver's reaction control was used<BR>prim=
arily to maximise the receiver's sensitivity, just on the verge<BR>of, but =
not quite "plopping" into oscillation, such as would have been<BR>necessary=
for reception of c.w.'<BR><BR>Rob G3XFD: 'Life in the Merchant Navy was in=
credibly dangerous in the<BR>Second World War Ed!'<BR><BR>Ed G3BIK: 'Yes, i=
t was risky as we crossed the Atlantic in slow<BR>merchant ships.
However, we were warned to avoid turning the<BR>receiver's reaction [r.f. =
gain?] up too far whilst at sea, as it could<BR>act as a transmitter on 500=
kHz enabling enemy U-boats to locate us!'<BR><BR>.....<BR><BR>Rob G3XFD: 'A=
narrow escape Ed, but I think that you have had some<BR>more adventures an=
d managed to use your Spanish again very soon<BR>afterwards?'<BR><BR>=
Ed G3BIK: 'Yes Rob, engine failure gave me my first opportunity to<BR>break=
the mandatory radio silence on 500kHZ, to seek help via the<BR>Americans i=
n Panama. The IFF unit was used in earnest when an American<BR>Catalina fly=
ing boat came to meet us. ....'<BR><BR>.......<BR><BR>Rob G3XFD: ' You obvi=
ously had an eventful war Ed! What direction did<BR>your career take you in=
peacetime?'<BR><BR>Ed G3 BIK: 'Having left the Merchant Navy, I got a shor=
e job mending<BR>domestic wireless sets, a service in demand because new se=
ts weren't<BR>available. I applied for and was granted my own
Amateur licence with<BR>callsign G3BIK. My PMG certificate exempted me fro=
m exams but I was<BR>still restricted to 10 watts of c.w. for the first yea=
r.<BR><BR>War surplus equipment became readily available at attractive pric=
es<BR>but I couldn't take real advantage of that because my parent's home<B=
R>didn't have electricity! So, I acquired a battery-operated trawler-<BR>ba=
nd two valved [two-tubed] t.r.f. receiver with "reaction", I used<BR>the ho=
use wireless-aerial and earth spike and began searching for<BR>Amateur tran=
smissions on the 160 metre top-band. To my great delight I<BR>heard G6UP ca=
lling "CQ" in Morse, but only recognisable as c.w. tones<BR>after turning u=
p the "reaction".<BR><BR>My excitement was boundless, as was the frustratio=
n of not yet having<BR>a transmitter to reply. That's when the wartime warn=
ing about the rash<BR>use of 'reaction' sprang to mind, so I unplugged the =
h.t. wander-plug<BR>and used it as a make-shift Morse key to tap out
a response to G6UP in<BR>hope that this would be my first ever G3BIK trans=
mission.<BR><BR>Joy upon joy, he came back with "G3BIK de G6UP. UR 579c"". =
I was fully<BR>readable and fairly strong but with some chirp! So the warti=
me concept<BR>of receiver acting as transmitter was proven right!'<BR><BR>.=
....."<BR><BR>The End.<BR><BR>Reg Curtis<BR><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>=
<BR></DIV><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD><BR>
<DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR><BR><BR></D=
IV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table>
--0-1142347489-1235766864=:85498--
Received on Sat Mar 02 2024 - 00:57:17 CST