Nobody is safe from the long arm of EU law
http://www.telegrapBy Philip Johnston
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 06/10/2008
Here is something the Government told us would never happen. When Britain signed up to the European Arrest Warrant (EAW) six years ago, critics pointed out that an individual could be extradited to another EU state to face prosecution for something that is not a crime in Britain and had not even been committed in the requesting country. Ministers dismissed such concerns as fanciful, but it has come to pass. An Australian teacher is currently in jail in London, following his arrest at Heathrow airport by British police acting on a warrant issued by the German authorities. Gerald Töben, 64, is wanted in Germany for the offence of "Holocaust denial". It used to be a fundamental protection in British law that no one would be sent for trial in another jurisdiction for something that is not an offence here. It was called the principle of dual criminality. However, when the EAW was drawn up this principle was removed for a list of 32 offences, which include the crimes of "racism and xenophobia". advertisement
 These offences have no equivalent in this country; but it is now clear that denying the Holocaust, or "defaming the dead", falls into the category. Moreover, Töben did not physically commit the alleged offences in Germany or even within the EU. The arrest warrant, issued in 2004, alleges that he had carried out from Australia (where it isn't a crime either) "worldwide internet publication" of material that denied, approved or played down the mass murder of Jews perpetrated by Nazi Germany during the Second World War. A few years ago, ministers gave an assurance that a British citizen based in the UK posting similar opinions on a website accessible in Germany could not be extradited. However, the legislation left it open to the courts to decide the location of the offence. If a foreign national can be detained in prison for something that is neither a crime in his own country nor in this, there is clearly something seriously amiss, whatever you think of the individual concerned. When the EAW came into force, ministers maintained that Britain had similar laws to Holocaust denial, such as incitement to racial hatred, but they are not the same. Britain has no offence of
"racism", although it is unlawful to incite racial hatred in a way that
could lead to a breach of public order - a law used against Islamist
radicals fomenting violence on the internet. Nor is there any legal
definition of "xenophobia" This case exposes the fundamental problem with the European Arrest Warrant. It assumes the legal systems of all the signatory countries contain the same safeguards and reflect shared cultural priorities. But they don't. Most continental jurisdictions, for instance, do not have habeas corpus; so it is possible to be extradited without any prima facie evidence that a crime has been committed, and to be held for months or years while an investigation takes place before a charge is laid. Here, that cannot happen; but under the EAW, hearings are supposed to be a formality and the requesting country does not have to present evidence of a well-founded case. Nor is the accused even allowed to argue that he will not get a fair trial; again, the assumption is that he will. It has been a long?standing principle in English law that extradition would not be allowed to a jurisdiction where the procedures were considered unjust. This is the issue in another current case involving a 19-year-old British student called Andrew Symeou, who is wanted by the Greek authorities for questioning over the death of Jonathon Hiles, 18, from Wales. He suffered head injuries when he fell from a podium at a nightclub on the island of Zakynthos in July last year. Mr Symeou was arrested under an EAW, even though he says he was not in the club at the time. There is no reason why his word should necessarily be taken and a proper investigation is needed in order to obtain justice for the distraught family of Mr Hiles. But that is not the point. In the pursuit of European judicial integration, a basic principle of British law, developed over centuries, is being set aside: that prima facie evidence of an offence having taken place is needed before someone is arraigned. In the Symeou case, this has not been established, yet he could face months in prison before it is; in Töben's case, there is not even an offence to be answered under our law or that of Australia, where he now lives. There is a way to avoid jailing someone for Holocaust denial in Britain when it isn't a crime here - and that is to make it a crime here. This has already been proposed by the European Commission. The offence would be punished by up to three years in jail; even wearing a swastika would attract a prison sentence, which would have been bad news for Prince Harry a few years ago. The EAW was rushed through in the aftermath of September 11, ostensibly to make it easier to extradite terrorist suspects, but in reality to speed the creation of a common European judicial area. It is now being used as cover for the extension of thought crimes. |
Comments
Martin Hill-Jones 11:31 AM
Philip Johnston was not making a case for a law of holocaust denial but
pointing out that this is what the European commission is pushing us
towards, as is clear from the context.
Posted by tom towers on October 6, 2008 5:31 PM
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Our only hope is that the EU falls apart
during the forthcoming depression.
Posted by Bertie Poole on October 6, 2008 5:26 PM
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"Philip
Johnston ruins an otherwise exceellent article by advocating the UK
makes Holocaust Denial an offence. It's understandable that Germany is
a little touchy on the subject, but such a law is utterly
objectionable. What next - Climate Change Denial?"
Posted by Martin Hill-Jones on October 6, 2008 11:31 AM
Martin, I would not even joke about it.
Posted by Bertie Poole on October 6, 2008 5:18 PM
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Why all the criticism?, Adolf would have been proud of the EU's defeat of British democracy.
Posted by Anthony on October 6, 2008 5:17 PM
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Does
this mean that I could be sent to France for calling my pet porker
Napoleon?Thankyou Modern man for your comment,I have now renamed it
Boney.
Posted by Robert Boyd on October 6, 2008 5:17 PM
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The
Red Cross Reports on conditions in the concentration camps prior to the
mass bombing raids on Germany can still be read on the internet. But
for how long?
Posted by Colin, Hounslow on October 6, 2008 5:14 PM
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So Philip, what are you going to do about it? What do you suggest we do about it?
Nothing? I thought so.
Posted by Bertie Poole on October 6, 2008 5:14 PM
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What
concerns me particularly is that the man was committed to prison for
possibly weeks, pending the extradition hearing. Surely normal minimal
bail conditions could be set?
Posted by jaytt on October 6, 2008 5:11 PM
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At
some point, the voters of Britain will recognize the degree to which
the rights guaranteed by Magna Carta and countless beneficial acts of
Parliaments past have been frittered away willy nilly in the name not
of common law but the phantasm of "comity" with Europe. Soon the steel
inherent in the spines of most of the people of this green and pleasant
land will be rediscovered, and a great shout of "No More" will change
forever the relationship with those unfortunates on the eastern shores
of the Channel.
Posted by Dennis Eagan on October 6, 2008 4:26 PM
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This
tale tells us that those who decide things for us, using the delegated
powers we freely give them, are casually willing to sign up for
anything that is sanctioned by the EU.
For these people the EU is the new Deity because of which all is
resolved for the good of all things. It is not a matter for casual
dismissal. The high priests of this new Deity are the bureaucrats
appointed to serve it and nothing else.
That a German is wanted for race crimes is not the point at all.
The point at issue is, who is safe? With this sort of arbitrary power
no-one is safe within the borders of the European Union? It is a
tyranny in the making and we in the UK are to be among its first
innocent victims.
British politicians seem to be completely dazzled and rendered
helpless by the whole idea of the European Union. We were a people
raised on Empire and we still seem carried away by the idea, even if we
have no control of it. It is big and its powers of patronage are mighty
and available to the chosen and fortunate few on it generous payrolls
and expense accounts. You don't need to be directly elected. It is a
Party reward for political compliance, misplaced gratitude and timidity
before one's masters.
There is no responsibility; no debate; no guilt; no questions; no
answers; no balls are required, just a blank mind and a thick skin. If
you are not corrupted when you go there you will have to work very hard
to remain clean. You have the satisfaction of knowing that once you
have served Brussels in this way no-one else will trust you again and
you owe your lifelong allegiance to Brussels on pain of losing you
pension.
Loyalty to this monster-in-the-
Let someone tell us of one advantage our MEPs have secured that makes our membership of the EU worthwhile.
There must be an MEP who reads this and could tell us what we actually get out of the EU.
Look at our singular record of servility and total compliance with
the letter and intention of every Regulation, Directive and Decision.
We take them goldplate them and then seek to do more than any other
state to make them as demanding as possible. We are the creeps of
Europe led by our miserable and sycophantic creatures of MEPs.
If British people hate and are fearful of the EU, let gentlemen in
Brussels now abed thank our wicked, treacherous and selfish
representatives for this state of affairs.
We stand and cheer as the prospect of a meltdown for the EU becomes
a possibility. It could not be worse for us as a people. It is as
though we fought a long war and finished up on the losing side with a
Treaty of Settlement to make our lives miserable and utterly pointless
from now until the ending of the world!
Posted by Greville Warwick on October 6, 2008 4:10 PM
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To quote frpm the Remembrance poem:
'Take up our quarrel with the foe
To you with failing hands we throw
The torch. Be sure to hold it high.
If YOU BREAK FAITH WITH THOSE WHO DIE
WE SHALL NOT SLEEP...
Though poppies grow in Flanders fields.'
Think about it.
Posted by Hagar on October 6, 2008 3:22 PM
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Re: Posted by buterfly Oct.6 2008 4:35am
Professor Frederick Toben is the name to Google. Wikipedia confirms all.
Isabel NZ.
Posted by Isabel Witty on October 6, 2008 3:19 PM
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Again
we have America good,Europe bad. Our lame administration will happily
allow anyone to be extradited to America and Guantanamo bay, even if
they've never been to America and committed no crime. The threat from
Europe is non-existent.
Posted by David Rawson on October 6, 2008 3:11 PM
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The
really sad element to this story is that the Minister who gave his
assurance that the law would not be abused would have believed that
what he was saying was within his gift to deliver.
He is not alone. All of the main political parties (including the
SNP) are in denial of EU reality. Worse, newspapers such as the Daily
Telegraph do not hold them up to ridicule, preferring misguided loyalty
to seeing their principles through to a logical conclusion.
Regrettably, the vast majority are completely oblivious as to what
is going on, and will remain so until either they are affected
personally, or it becomes a storyline in their favourite soap.
Inevitably, however, something or someone will penetrate their consciousness, and the pressure cooker will blow.
A managed withdrawal from the EU really would be preferable.
Posted by Roger Smith on October 6, 2008 3:10 PM
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We
in UKIP having been telling anyone who cares to listen of these
impending horrors perpetrated upon the British people's liberty,
legislature and sovereignty for ten years.
It seems it takes an example like this before the comatose forth
pillar of society (the media, and journalism in particular) wake up to
it ... then what does this idiot recommend as the answer .. .make
holoucaust denial a crime here !! in other words ignore the fundamental
problem and accept teh EU diktat whole!... and what of free speech then
???
The only answer is to leave this country now if you are young
enough, or accept living under a fascist dictatorship in the making.
Posted by Douglas denny on October 6, 2008 2:41 PM
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Arrest, detention and deportation to another country without trial for
publishing an opinion upsetting to a foreign countries' sensibilities
seems like behaviour consistent with that of the Nazis or Soviets.
Posted by Revolting Peasant on October 6, 2008 2:38 PM
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Pity
that the "Long Arm" cannot be used to bring the EU auditors before the
European Court to make them give witness to the financial incompetence
of their Political Masters in the EU.
Posted by Conkeyron on October 6, 2008 2:33 PM
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"Germany be aware: you are in fact mimicking the Fuhrer in this matter."
Posted by Hugh on October 6, 2008 8:51 AM
My thoughts exactly. In their zeal to show how different they are to
their predecessors they are goose-stepping over other countrys'
objections to their view of what is right.
How unlike them.
Posted by Karen Timms on October 6, 2008 2:08 PM
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"Posting propaganda on German websites is the same as acting as if you were in Germany." Gary on October 6, 2008 7:14 AM
It is difficult to know where a web site is based and we should not
have to consider the issue. We used to have freedom of expression in
this country and consider ourselves a free people. We were free to say
things other people did not agree with.
The counter view was grounded in argument, logic and evidence, not
criminal charges. What next? Extradition to China for not denying the
Tien An Men massacre?
Many countries have ridiculous anti-truth legislation in place, but
only the current crop of second-rate politicians who are ignorant of
our history of free speech would dream of going along with it. Now if
we could lock them up for free-speech denial I might just go along with
the legislation…
Posted by Steve Adams on October 6, 2008 1:59 PM
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Posted
early on this but never saw it appear. Essentially I think that
established principles like habeas corpus are being eclipsed by
faceless bureaucrat derived law.
We are heading towards a European Federal State which will control
a society which has layer upon layer of ostensible elected and paid
representation (hence the backing of the political class of all hues),
but no responsibility, no accountability, to the people.
A legal system where a state is not even required to furnish a
case which would be valid in the second state where a person is to be
arrested, or even in the third state where the alleged offence was
committed is not what most of us can accept. This is just a tiny
example of the way total control of every aspect of our lives is being
lost - and where whoever is actually in control is completely
obfuscated and thus unaccountable.
It is all starting to look irreversible - as is much of the damage which Labour has done in Britain.
Posted by simon coulter on October 6, 2008 1:48 PM
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The
ministers who lied should be charged with deception. And bliar should
be charged and extradited for all the deaths he's caused.
Posted by john fitzgerald on October 6, 2008 1:38 PM
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Time to get out of the EU. The EU is not going to be a totalitarian regime, it already is one.
Come on Mr Cameron, why not offer the people of the UK a referendum on membership.
Posted by daniel1979 on October 6, 2008 1:36 PM
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Erm Neil, sorry to spoil your fun, but the US is not
in Europe.
Posted by Peter Evans on October 6, 2008 1:36 PM
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link
"....Like other utopian fantasies, far from ushering in a new era of
tolerance and enlightenment, this creates the very illiberalism it
purports to oppose.
More and more arrests and prosecutions are taking place against people
who are deemed to offend against 'hate speech' - simply because they
are preaching Christianity, denouncing immorality or even, in one
consummately ironic case, scrawling on a wall 'Free speech for
England'.
And all this against the background of the campaign by certain Muslims
who seek to outlaw even the term 'Islamic terrorism' in order to shut
down debate about that particular threat.
This sinister encroachment of hate crime into English law has little to
do with preventing harm and more to do with an abuse of power. And the
EU has put rocket fuel behind it.
It is this erosion of fundamental liberties and denial of national
differences at the heart of the EU project which is behind the current
alarming rise of neo-Nazi parties in countries such as Austria - which
jailed David Irving for Holocaust-denial.
It is not bigots like Fredrick Toben who pose the biggest threat to our
freedom, but the EU and its incendiary doctrine of nation-denial.
Posted by Doris in a Morris on October 6, 2008 1:34 PM
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It's a nice one. British people being arrested because the Germans don't like what they say?
Remind me again why we fought the last war?
Posted by Roger Pearse on October 6, 2008 1:26 PM
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What has judicial integration got to do with the establishment of a common market? And who asked us?
Why are we allowing our common law tradition to be subverted by alien, dicatorial, Napoleonic, codified legal systems?
Why isn't the Tory party screaming its anger and disgust from the rooftops?
Who is going to stop this?
Posted by Michael P on October 6, 2008 1:21 PM
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So it's true then that:
EU = 4th Reich = 5th Republic
Posted by Greg Russell on October 6, 2008 1:18 PM
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Holocaust
denial as a crime is preposterous. There is equal evidence, if not
more, that evolution happened so do we make it illegal to be a
creationist? Or do we just tolerate their views whilst trying to change
their mind in a peaceful manner.
"But denial encourages the far right" I hear you say. Well guess
what? Thats a legitimate if unpleasant political viewpoint. Shall we
ban the unions because they encourage the far left? I don't much care
for their opinions.
How about it being offensive to Jews? Offence is only something
that can be taken, not given. I'm not sure that there are that many
jewish people wanting to lock this guy up anyway.
If two views conflict with each other you present evidence and make
a decision based on that evidence. If you present sufficient evidence
then you win the opinion of others through demonstating scientific
rigour.
"Offence" is the device of the oppressor to repress debate or logical rigour.
If I find it offensive that people believe in christianity or Islam
will you ban them? Or will they ban me? In this case you get the
majority bullying the minority, which leads to genocide and oppression.
Now the German thought police can get you anywhere. I hope I'm not next!
Posted by Matt on October 6, 2008 1:13 PM
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Freedom
of speech in Germany does not exist. The intention of the EU puppet
masters is to make this prevention of free speech to be law in all EU
nations punishable by threat of jail - depending on the selective
subject matter of course!!!
'Pure Orwellian Big Brother Politic'.
There is indeed evidence that people have been telling lies when
writing the history of WW2 and cover ups are rife as is expected of the
victors in wartime. For some of us the truth about history is what is
most important and wanting to know the truth is not in reality a hate
crime or a thought crime.
Politicians worldwide are renowned for their deceit and sheer lack of
being trustworthy so why are so many people so willingly like sheep
ready to believe what they say is fact from fiction regarding history?
The accepted view does not necessarily reflect the true occurrences of history. We see this time and time again.
Posted by Jonathan Fitz-Gerald on October 6, 2008 1:07 PM
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Nothing surprises me any more,even inoffensive opinions expressed on this posting are excluded by the moderators.
Posted by Sue on October 6, 2008 12:56 PM
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Outrageous,
even for someone as morally repugnant as Toben. How can it be right
that we can be arrested for breaching legislation that other
parliaments enact? I hesitate to sugegst it but will fox-hunters now be
arrested in France becasue they are breaking UK law? Or perhaps we
could get the EU arrested en-masse for false accounting?
Posted by Tim on October 6, 2008 12:54 PM
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"The EAW was rushed through in the aftermath of September 11, ostensibly to make it easier to extradite terrorist suspects,"
Our feeble-minded Home Secretary used this argument to justify the EAW
on a radio phone-in back in the summer. However, just as Labour used
its new 'anti-terrorist' law to expel a heckling pensioner from its
conference, it was inevitable that this latest act of Euro-dictatorship
would be used much more broadly. The EU will use any excuse to further
its centralising agenda. The sooner we are out of the EU, the better.
"It about protecting the media's ability to be objectionable and offensive. Is that what we all really want?"
Well, I for one prefer the media to have the freedom to be
'objectionable and offensive' than to have some unelected
Euro-commissar decide what they can or cannot say.
Posted by DaveS on October 6, 2008 12:48 PM
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Basil Fawlty must be running for his life...
Posted by J.Wilkes on October 6, 2008 12:40 PM
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Welcome to hell - sent there by your traitorous governments. OUT OF THE EU NOW
Posted by V on October 6, 2008 12:40 PM
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If
you want to know how it is that these things can happen here, just look
at the number of people who have felt the need to comment in this
thread. Compare it with an article by Heffer or Daley on Labour or
Conservative policies or actions at home where we would see literally
hundreds of people posting comments. Apathy is a wonderful thing if you
are a Politician. You can beat your breast in public about the
disenfranchising of the people and the lack of interest in elections
whilst laughing all the way to your new, well paid, fully perked job
with promotion prospects including a place at the famous EU trough!
I actually now feel that we have lost this battle before it has
been fought. I think we are at a place where the scheming,, duplicity
and downright lying we have seem from our politicians over the last 40
years have done their job to the point where it cannot, now, be
reversed. I now see Cameron, and his promise to allow a referendum, as
the last possible hope for this country. If he is not voted in, or is
and fails to deliver on his promise, then I feel there will be much
trouble ahead as the free thinkers and the caring are finally joined by
the sleepwalkers on the day they wake up to the terrible things being
done in their name. Our politicians have taken advantage of the
qualities of fair mindedness, trust and willingness to take some pain
for the greater good that are inherent in the British people. To do
that for their personal gain is one thing. To do it to betray the
people and hand them, and their country, over to foreign powers is
criminal and must surely have some treasonable element to it. Can
nothing now be done???????
Posted by PaddyBoy on October 6, 2008 12:33 PM
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Presumably
therefore it is just as valid for Russia or Pakistan to issue death
sentences in absentia on anyone they wish and they can carry out their
verdicts on foreign soil withjout the fear of recrimination. Tit for
tat after all.
I always thought that the idea of national sovereignty was that a
nation was free to impose laws within its own boundaries and that
nationals could expect their respective governments to protect them
from others wishing to impose their laws. The EU soviet marches on me
thinks and has adopted the fatwa mentality for its inspiration.
Posted by Adam Kosterski on October 6, 2008 12:28 PM
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Posted by Gary on October 6, 2008 7:14 AM
What are you on?
The only country where holocaust denial is illegal is Germany. By your
argument if we discuss the subject in the UK and it is overheard by a
German then we could also be guilty if he complains to his government.
Free speech does not exist in a Nazi state, it seems the EU is creating
one.
Posted by rich on October 6, 2008 12:28 PM
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"Liberty, if it means anything at all, is the right to tell people what they don't want to hear."
George Orwell's definition of freedom and I would add that the very
hallmark of freedom is also the "right to be told something that you
don't want to hear." This is the point: Freedom of speech wouldn't even
need to exist as an idea if we all happily agreed with one another. It
only ever needs defending when someone is "offended" by the expression
of a thought or idea.
Being "offended" confers no special status of victim hood that
trumps the rights of others to express their thoughts. However, the UK
passed the incitement of religious hatred bill, the EU wants holocaust
denial to be a Europe wide crime and the UN has passed an
anti-blasphemy resolution attempting to curtail the right to free
speech.
We need an American styled first amendment that guarantees our
right to free speech. FOS is a non-negotiable right and an absolute
that is necessary to guarantee all our freedom.
If the Tories want vote-winning policies that would be immensely
popular with the electorate then they can insist on having our own
first amendment on the Bill of Rights they wish to introduce. However,
for such a Bill of Rights to work or be legally enforceable then we
have to derogate from the outdated Human Rights Act and actually leave
the EU.
Posted by Jason Mead on October 6, 2008 12:27 PM
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and how many Britons have been extradited to Europe fr committing an act in the UK that is not illegal here?
amd how many Britons have been extradited to the US for committing an act in the UK that is not illegal here?
Posted by rob on October 6, 2008 12:24 PM
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The
UKIP has been trying to tell the Great British Public about the result
for Britain of the EAW ever since it was agreed to by our despicable
government. No luck. As usual, the Telegraph and the media in general
ignores anything the Party of which I have been a long time member has
to say. Now, perhaps, with this and the way in which Ireland is being
steamrollered to accept the Constitution/
Of course, with the present financial crisis, there is always the
possibility that the whole thing will fall to pieces anyway. But don't
count on it.
Posted by Sonya Porter on October 6, 2008 12:03 PM
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What next - Climate Change Denial?
Posted by Martin Hill-Jones on October 6, 2008 11:31 AM
Except that we all know that the Holocoast actually happened and
likewise any thinking man knows that climate change is just a hyped-up
myth with no basis in science.
Posted by Henry S on October 6, 2008 12:03 PM
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Sending
a citizen away to stand trial in another country, under a different
legal system and in a foreign language, most likely with inadequate
interpretation, is THE most heinous crime against humanity! It is
something only a criminal state could agree to.
Our politicians of all important parties are unfortunately getting
so far out of touch with everybody except the small ruling elite that
we're nearing the point where a revolution is the only way to
re-establish democratic rule.
Posted by M P Jones on October 6, 2008 11:58 AM
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How
bizarre, the Germans start two world wars, allegedly kill millions of
Jews and then they dish out international arrest warrants for anyone
who says they didn't do it, what's the problem are they still run by
Nazi's who don't want the world to forget what they're capable of or is
it a pride thing?
Remember Agincourt, it was on the 25th of October 1415 when we gave the
French a sound thrashing which they had better not forget or deny or I
will be sending out international arrest warrants.
Posted by Cromwell on October 6, 2008 11:54 AM
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What next - Climate Change Denial?
Posted by Martin Hill-Jones on October 6, 2008 11:31 AM
Coming soon, I fancy.
Posted by SD on October 6, 2008 11:50 AM
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What does the great David Cameron say about that ?
Do not vote Tory at the next election....
Dont vote
Destroy the democractic system by NOT voting
;
Posted by man on waterloo bridge on October 6, 2008 11:46 AM
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new labour have been introducing european laws ,like their was no tomorrow.
Posted by thomas on October 6, 2008 11:44 AM
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Philip
Johnston ruins an otherwise exceellent article by advocating the UK
makes Holocaust Denial an offence. It's understandable that Germany is
a little touchy on the subject, but such a law is utterly
objectionable. What next - Climate Change Denial?
Posted by Martin Hill-Jones on October 6, 2008 11:31 AM
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Gerald Frederick TÓ§ben is Austrian by
birth and Australian by
nationalistion. He is an acknowledged
anti-semite and holocaust denier.
He was a teacher until 1994 when he
established the Adelaide Institute an
anti-semitic and holocaust denial
organisation that produces a
particularly nasty website from
Australia targeted towards Germany in
as much as parts of it are in German.
He was imprisoned in Germany for 9
months in 1999 for breach of
Germany's Holocaust denial Law.
Let's know at least the kind of
person we are talking about.
Further the warrant under which he
was arrested cites allegations of
"publishing 'antisemitic and or
revisionist' material" which would
seem, at least to some extent to be
in conflict with our law. In any
case, this issue will be resolved
British Court before the warrant is
executed.
It might be further useful to
consider that increasingly,
administrations are extending the
jurisdiction of their national laws
in certain fields beyond their own
frontiers. The laws that appertain to
child pornography are classical
examples.
One can argue that the advent of mass
travel and communications make such
actions inevitable.
Posted by Mel on October 6, 2008 10:58 AM
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I
don't blame the Germans - this is to be expected from continentals with
dubious democratic credentials. They are just being themselves.
It is the traitorous, lying pestilential politicians and their faceless masters who I reserve my hatred for.
Hopefully one day a party of decent patriotic Britons will hold the
reins of power and we can restore this country to its former glory.
Posted by Derek Thomas on October 6, 2008 10:43 AM
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Sir
– One of the profound long-term paradoxes of this case is clear: it is
likely to increase `racism' along tribal and racial lines in this
nation as men begin to cease recognising EU law (the continental
consent to holocaust denial law is different because of their
collaboration with Nazism).
As Roger Scruton has predicted describing the eventual disconnection between `theirs' (EU law) and `ours' (British common law):
`Even so we, the citizens, are powerless to reject these laws, and
they, the legislators, are entirely unanswerable to us, who must obey
them. This is exactly what Kant dreaded, as the sure path, first to
despotism and then to anarchy. And it is happening. The despotism is
coming slowly: the anarchy will happen quickly in its wake, when law is
finally detached from the experience of membership [of this nation],
becomes `theirs' but not `ours' and so loses all authority in the
hearts of those whom it presumes to discipline… The aim has been to
keep national sovereignty in place just so long as is necessary to
secure the structure that will suddenly replace it.'
England and The Need for Nations (Civitas (2006))
The interesting point (historical) is that the British rejected the
proposed EU wide law on holocaust denial (fearing it to be a breach of
civil liberties too far); the fact is that it has come in by proxy
through the European Arrest Warrant.
Come the General Election, come that great and dreadful day.
Posted by D. Singh on October 6, 2008 10:32 AM
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In days gone by, it used to be said
that ignorance of the law is no
excuse. That was in the days when
laws made sense, weren't changed
every five minutes and weren't
being churned out at the rate of
3,000 per year.
Now, we are expected to know the
law of all other countries and to
abide by them, whether or not we
agree with them.
Worse than that, we can be
detained for 42 days without
charge, without knowing what
`crime' we have committed and can
be convicted without knowing who
the accuser is or without even
being present at the `trial'.
This country and the EU is
becoming a totalitarian nightmare.
I have absolutely no confidence in
this rotten government to "do the
right thing" in any matter it
touches.
If Cameron doesn't win the next
election, I'm off to a saner, safer, less
costly part of the world.
Posted by Arlene on October 6, 2008 10:31 AM
Report this comment
The
fundamental issue with the EU Arrest Warrant is that no prima facie
evidence has to be supplied. All that has to happen is for the relevant
boxes to be ticked, and to claim that a suspected individual is
required for investigation under any one of the 32 offences covered by
the warrant (which may or may not be crimes in the UK!).
In other words - Guilty by denunciation!
It is unlawful in Turkey to insult the Turkish Nation. If (when)
Turkey becomes a member of the EU, you can expect to be tried in
absentia and arrested by our own police, transported to Turkey and act
out your own version of Midnight Express, just for saying you hate
kebabs!
The Łmillions we have spent protecting Salman Rushdie from the
fatwa issued against him will have been wasted money when we learn he
can be arrested and sent for trial abroad for insulting islam - the
same goes for the Danish cartoonists and Geert Wilders.
Considering the recently created EU death penalty for "rebellion",
(hidden in a footnote of a footnote in the Lisbon Treaty) one can see
that the machinery necessary for totalitarian repression is now in
place within the European superstate - a truly Orwellian system ready
to be activated on January 1, 2009, whatever the outcome of the Irish
referendum, when they will again be told to come up with the 'right'
answer.
Shame on the Queen for betraying both her Coronation Oath and her loyal subjects by giving all this her royal assent.
Ooops - can I be sent to jail in Lithuania for saying that?
Posted by Doris in a Morris on October 6, 2008 10:27 AM
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"It
is now being used as cover for the extension of thought crimes." If it
looks like censorship sounds like censorship and functions like
censorship, then call it what it is - Censorship.
This is the next step into the removal of all freedom of speech in Europe.
Posted by Neil Jones on October 6, 2008 10:26 AM
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The
E.U. is the Dark empire of Star Wars!I have just read the novelisation
of Revenge of the Sith!The parallels between it and the
gradual,stealthy grabs for power by the E,U from national
governments,
Posted by ray douglas on October 6, 2008 10:26 AM
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In
Germany, a second world war German aircraft in a museum cannot have the
swastika on its tail fin- I think it is replaced with a smaller "Balkan
Cross" as used on the wings- for it is illegal, whereas German aircraft
in museums in the UK do have the swastika insignia. German and British
built aircraft in Finnish museums flown by the Finns during the war
likewise display the swastika. The Finns adopted the swastika as it was
the personal emblem of a Swedish aristocrat, Count Eric von Rosen who
gave them their second aircraft during the Finnish Civil War in March
1918. The Allies pressurised the Finns to drop this emblem in 1945
after the Finns changed sides in World War 2- so they began to use a
roundel, like the RAF. The Germans have their reasons for banning
emblems redolent of The Third Reich, but the use of the swastika- and
it is very much in evidence in Hindu art- especially when deities are
portrayed, is hundreds if not thousands of years old- not just the 20
odd years after a dentist concocted the iconography for a (then)
relatively obscure demagogue in Bavaria. I can only assume that when
the ban comes into effect there will be a derogation for religious use,
as long as it's certain defined religions or religion.
Posted by Nick R on October 6, 2008 10:02 AM
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I'm sorry, whether views are offensive depend on where you are.
The right to speak out on controversial topics, even if racist or
xenophobic, must be sacrosanct. An earlier poster alluded to the
controversy over Armenian genocide, there is controversy over mass
murders of Poles in WW2 - laws of this nature not only protect people
with preposterous positions, they prevent discussion of genuine
controversies and cover-ups.
They are also, might I add, insulting to the rest of us, assuming we
are incapable of thinking for ourselves or examining evidence. The
loony AGW people will be the next to use them, wait and see.
Fortunately , that debate takes place mainly outside the EU, and in
countries that actually have a constitution to protect themselves from
outrageous laws of this kind.
Posted by redbirdpete on October 6, 2008 10:02 AM
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I
like reading stories like this. If I ever have days when I wonder why I
left the UK for New Zealand, I read them and am strongly reminded how
much greener the grass is here!!
Posted by Ex-Tax Cow on October 6, 2008 9:54 AM
Report this comment
The
arrest of Australian national Gerald Frederick Toben at Heathrow
airport at the request of the German government on Holocaust-denial
charges cuts to the very heart of the EU super state Gestapo danger.
Holocaust Denial is a self-defeating honey trap aimed at diverting
attention away from the real issues facing Britain in 2008, namely the
effects of mass immigration and the loss of our national identity.
The real issue with the Toben case is not, therefore, his silliness
in getting involved with events of 70 years ago, but actually the
frightening ability of EU states to order the arrest of other state's
nationals — for thought crimes which are not even offences in most
countries.
This is a direct assault on personal and civil liberties, the
suppression of which Europe was supposed to have liberated itself in
the war against Fascism more than six decades ago. It is incredible to
think that the nations of Europe — who fought so hard to rid themselves
of Nazi and Fascist dictatorships, should themselves resort to those
very tactics.
This is rank, dire, wretched hypocrisy of the worst degree, and
shows that the era of Nazi book burning has been reborn in the form of
the EU — and modern leftist regimes.
The EU Gestapo works like this: A person of any nationality —
Britain included — says or thinks something which is not a crime in his
home country. An EU state issues an arrest warrant, and can order the
police of a third state to arrest that person anywhere in the world,
and bring that person back to the EU state for trial.
The police have no discretion in the matter: they are forced to act by the EU super state.
The last time Europe experienced such a thing was during the witch
burnings of the Middle Ages, the Nazi era, and the tyranny of
Communist-ruled Eastern Europe. The EU has excelled itself over these
eras.
At the very least, the Nazis made no pretence of being democratic,
and were open about their aims. The EU on the other hand, lies and
pretends to be democratic, when in fact it is just as totalitarian, if
not more so, than the worst witchcraft trial judge or Nazi book burner.
In fact, the Nazis never reached Britain, whereas their spiritual
descendants in the EU bureaucracy now have.
Euro-sceptics, including those who support UKIP, will doubtless
find these events a confirmation of all they fear about the EU Gestapo
super state. But UKIP supporters should also be aware that in January
2005, UKIP MEPs voted for these laws which are now being enforced for
the first time on UK territory.
Not content with lying to their supporters, the UKIP MEPs have
actively taken part in the suppression of British civil liberties, and
deserve to be punished for this collaboration with the Fascists.
Posted by Cheeky Monkey on October 6, 2008 9:54 AM
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We
have been sold into EUSSR slavery by our own elected sleazeball
politicians. Who now can change this slavery? David Cameron - will he
have the courage and foresight/hindsight to do something about this? I
believe moral and political courage has been bred out of our current
crop of 'leaders'. I can think of no British politician with the sheer
guts to finally speak the truth about this 'EU maw' into which are
disappearing all our rights. To hell with being 'good europeans' let us
be good British subjects.
Posted by Peersrogue on October 6, 2008 9:49 AM
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This is an excellent article by
Philip Johnston dealing with a
fascinating but controversial issue:
Arrest and detention of German-
Australian Dr. Frederick Gerald Toben: A holocaust denialist, by
UK law-enforcement authorities,
en route from the United States
to Dubai. When his plane landed in
London's Heathrow Airport, Scotland
Yard whisked him off. Thus, began a
round of this latest odyssey.
A London magistrate denied bail,
and Dr. Toben is scheduled to appear in court October 17.
I din't know anything about this
issue until I read it in yesterday's (Oct. 5) Telegraph View:
"Dr. Frederick Toben's arrest should
alarm us all," where I posted an
elaborate, belated commentary
(5:10 PM). Here, Telegraph View
outlined EU Arrest Warrant provisions
that clash with UK's free-speech and
human-rights statutes that might may make the case non-extraditable. Then,
I fronted some near-universal, legal
doctrines and principles that could
invalidate these trumped-up charges.
Johnston has impresiively argued
some of them in his article.
The conclusion after reading and examining this case (also, embodied
in my yesterday commentary), is that
this is a farce manufactured in
Germany). Dr. Toben is airing a
German, historical "Dirty laundry"
through his outbursts of Holocaust
Denialism--which in the extreme claims Holocaust never took place, or
to the moderate, 6 million figure is
an exaggeration. This amounts to
historical revisonism found in
religions, Hollywood productions;
and more. Historical revisionism attempts to revise history through
prejudice, bias, personal views, institutional doctrines, local
interests, or other global, contemporary trends and pre-existing
dynamics. But, it's hard to subject Holocaust to historical
revisionism. Holocaust didn't start in World
War II, it's a trend as old as Christianty thriving on
anti-Semitism-
historians. Holocaust is the climax.
I have analyzed these tends in some of my past secular-religion commentaries. If eyewitness accounts
can't convince Holocaust denialists,
motion-picture evidence and
photographs are there to prove it.
Which begs the question: Why is Germany dredging up an inglorious and
forgettable past? Holocaust is better
memorialized in museums; not by
suppression of free speech, which
extols Western Civilization (minus
the prurient, concupiscent decadence) above most other cultures:
manifest in its defense of free speech and civil libertarianism.
Let me refrain and rephrase what
I said about Dr. Toben's ideas:
Are they obnoxious? Yes. Criminal?
No. Why? He published it in his
web site--not on TV, radio or
newspaper with wider audience and
some regulations, because of
broadcast licenses. And why would
anybody go to Dr. Toben's web site if
that person has no compelling
interest in Holocaust Denialism?
What Germany's fruitless efforts have done is giving Dr. Toben the
publicty he lacks. Otherwise, people
like me preoccupied with giving more
positive, constructive information and knowledge, might not know him
and his polarizing ideas. And, as a
strong defender of free sppech, he
has the right to air a speech that
doesn't advocate violence as some
militant fanatics do. It's the
militancy and the homicidal, or
insurrectionist, treasonable or
destabilizing implications in
speeches, that broach the law,
leading to charges and prosecution; not just spewing obnoxious, venomous
utterances.
Brtain should stay away from this case; just as Australia, his adopted
country, did. This is Round Two of
Mannheim, Germany v. Dr. Toben. The
city has jailed him before for
distributing criminalized "anti-Semitic, revisionist lietarture."
Scotland Yard probably didn't know
what they got into. Maybe, they
thought they had a terrorist fugitive. Now UK knows the truth, she should let him go.
Igonikon Jack, USA
Posted by Igonikon Jack on October 6, 2008 9:40 AM
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As a member of UKIP for the last 8 years we told
any one willing to listen about the danger of this
and other legislation from the EU.
Don't expect any of the Lib/Lab/Con to extract
us from this nightmare as they are all wedded to
the EU. The EU never gives back any significant
powers like this to the nation states.We either
withdraw from the EU or accept Corpus Juris a
legal system inimical to the British.
Posted by Lawrie Brownlee on October 6, 2008 9:40 AM
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Stop blaming the government. Parliament, supposedly our representatives, passed these laws.
Posted by Michael Fremlins on October 6, 2008 9:39 AM
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An objectionable and offensive media
is far worse than a shackled,
censored media and no one is forced
to read or watch what they don't
like.
I select what I watch amongst the
proliferation of garbage and do not
read sensationalist newspapers which
publish rubbish.
Our freedom of speech within the
current legal limits has already gone
too far and must never be compromised
further.
Posted by Benny on October 6, 2008 9:29 AM
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In the Lisbon Treaty, criticising the EU and EU foreign policy is to be criminalised.
Indeed, no treaty is needed by the EU to create a crime. The Eu
Justice ministers can simply have activities such as yawming made a
crime by a directive - and the EU police can go out and arrest anyone
believed guilty of yawning, ie anyone the EU wants to get rid of on
some pretext or other.
We are back in Kafka's land, in a land with the legal framework and forces of a Nazi-Stalin totalitarian state.
Posted by pat on October 6, 2008 9:19 AM
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An
as yet unnamed elite, lawless organisation is actually running the
country by stealth, in effect a silent insurrection from within, on
behalf of the EU. The control must be total, absolute, and lead
top-down from the centre. What and who cannot be controlled must be
destroyed by nulabor. An unelected cadre already runs the country,
bypassing Parliament, the Judiciary, and all the institutional
safeguards that were designed to ensure our freedoms. This cadre
answers to the EU.
The direction this country is going is clear. Anyone arbitrarily
deemed to be a threat to the EU's agenda is summarily subjected to
sanction and prejudice. This is guilt by accusation, and evidence
becomes a barrier to the EU notion of justice.
Posted by martin on October 6, 2008 9:18 AM
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In the Lisbon Treaty, criticising the EU and EU foreign policy is to be criminalised.
Indeed, no treaty is needed by the EU to create a crime. The Eu Justice
ministers can simply have activities such as yawming made a crime by a
directive - and the EU police can go out and arrest anyone believed
guilty of yawning, ie anyone the EU wants to get rid of on some pretext
or other.
We are back in Kafka's land, in a land with the legal framework and forces of a Nazi-Stalin totalitarian state.
Posted by pat on October 6, 2008 9:18 AM
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Another
reason to leave the EU. Germany should find some backbone and stand up
to these bullies instead of kissing their backside.
In a democracy you should be allowed to question anything. Indeed,
you should be encouraged to question things, especially key events in
history. Truth does not need a law to protect it.
Posted by Alan Heaton on October 6, 2008 9:17 AM
Report this comment
The
EAW is undemocratic and flies in the face of most established legal
principles which go back many centuries and were separately determined
in the parallel systems of countless countries as the right ones.
As we can read, this all counts for nothing in the fledgling
European Superstate - a place with no time for the individual and where
the bureaucratic state will supplant the elected representation of the
people - not least by diminishing the coherence of the latter using
regional fragmentation.
All leading politicians in the mainstream know this to be
happening, whether in government or opposition - and tacitly, it seems
they subscribe to this concept of layers and layers of paid
representation for the political class - but no real power at all. Jobs
for the boys they used to call it. We are being led towards darkness.
Posted by simon coulter on October 6, 2008 9:14 AM
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"It about protecting the media's ability to be objectionable and offensive. Is that what we all really want?"
Rubbish, as usual P.R. It's about questioning "established" views. If
Mr Toben has evidence then let him produce it for us to judge. We are
not idiots.
The action of the Germans smacks of a witch hunt.Any historical
event is open to interpretation by vested interests and should,
likewise, be open to scrutiny.
We have , in this coutry, laws protecting the individual from libel
and slander, they have been perfectly adequate. We do not need state
sanctioned thought control.
There is no "right" not to be offended.
Posted by AndrewG on October 6, 2008 9:02 AM
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Let's
not fight this, let's have some fun with it. As capital punishment is
illegal in this country, why not issue an arrest warrant for any and
all American politicians who have been a Governor of a State that has
practiced it. Then when George Bush (for example) goes to Germany he
will have to be arrested. Then we will see if any other country plays
along. Or what about having the US issue an arrest warrant for all
Germans who drank under the US legal drinking age of 21 and demand to
have them extradited to the US.
Posted by neil on October 6, 2008 8:57 AM
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I
understand that it is also "illegal" in Germany to display a swastika.
Can we look forward to the cast of 'Ello 'Ello being extradited ?
In Italy, so I read, there is a "law" against insulting the
President. There are, I assume, many such ludicrous laws in other EU
countries too.
From now on I will only vote for a party which promises to maintain
the primacy of English (NOT British, Scotland as their own system) law.
I have my "rights" too and they are not transferable to Europe
under any circumstances. Just because a "government" does something it
doesn't make it either right or legal.
Posted by AndrewG on October 6, 2008 8:56 AM
Report this comment
How
very ironic that the very people who slaughtered the Jews (and lest we
forget, the gypsies, gays, commies, mentally retarded, strange-looking
academics etc) are now emulating old Adolf's most heinous crime against
humanity - that of a fundamental right to the freedom of speech and
expression.
What came first: Auschwitz or a lack of free speech in Germany? Does
anyone seriously think that Zyclon-B would have been in such high
demand after the Wannsee Conference if the German populace - and the
conquered Poles - were allowed to peacefully stand outside the
Auschwitz gates with placards saying "Genocide! Not in my name"
No, the very first thing on the checklist of any aspiring Evil
Dictator is to eradicate free speech. Which is why, however repugnant a
fellow's views may be, he should always be allowed to voice them.
Germany be aware: you are in fact mimicking the Fuhrer in this matter.
Posted by Hugh on October 6, 2008 8:51 AM
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In
addition to the re-readings of Orwell, I again urge the reading of the
works of Ayn Rand, particularly Atlas Shrugged which is a much closer
parallel to our current headlong rush to oblivion than is 1984.
Posted by John Galt on October 6, 2008 8:46 AM
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This
is just another outrage perpetrated by this miserable govenment and
follows hot on the heels of the one sided extradition treaty with the
US. No one is safe in the UK whilst NULabour is in power. But where is
the outrage from our weak-willed,
Posted by oldasiahand on October 6, 2008 8:43 AM
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Is there no end to the deprivation of our liberties that this wretched government is actively prepared to allow.
Posted by Simon Marshland on October 6, 2008 8:38 AM
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To all those who supported the Danish cartoons- where's the freedom of speech now?
Posted by abdullah on October 6, 2008 8:36 AM
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I
understand the vicar of Sutton Courtenay has had a demand from the
French courts to exhume the body of Eric Blair, a resident of the
graveyard, so that his remains can be tried in France and imprisoned.
In France, it is illegal to name a pig Napoleon.
So, anyone who promulgates a view on the internet which is illegal
in a EU country may be arrested whenever he or she visits any EU
country. Bear in mind we also have a law which says you may not
criticise the EU. So, all you Americans, Africans and Asians,
thoughtcrime is real; don't come to Europe!
Posted by Modern Man on October 6, 2008 8:33 AM
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The
trouble is that when dealing with europe and the facist state it is
becoming, our politicians need to develop a big set of balls and a
spine.
Not since Thatcher have these been in action.
The Spineless Cowards that sit there causing situations like this
should be prosecuted for Treason, the first duty is to protect the
country and the citizens, and this they have failed to do.
Posted by David Coulter on October 6, 2008 8:29 AM
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It
can only be a matter of time before questioning global warming brings
the same sanctions. After that, questioning government policy will be
equated with treason.
Posted by Philip Alsop on October 6, 2008 8:24 AM
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"When will we wake up to the fact THEY are just not like US."
Are THEY like anyone? It appears the increasing detachment from any
notion of democracy makes the EU unaccountable to any and resembling no
member state. If it is possible to concoct the worst of all, I'm sure
they'll achieve it.
Posted by H on October 6, 2008 8:15 AM
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If this is a step too far what about
the hundreds of other laws and
regulations to which we are bound but
which do not enhance our lives one
iota.
We should start doing what most of
the other members do - flout the
laws, ignore the rules and then wait
for the fines which are, of course,
never paid.
And then leave the EU for good.
Posted by Benny on October 6, 2008 8:11 AM
Report this comment
So
we in Britain are now subject to German law.When I think of the
sacrifices made by the brave men and women who fought against the
Germans in the 39-45 war to prevent this happening it makes me weep.
If we do not get out of the eu we are doomed.
Posted by Ron on October 6, 2008 7:57 AM
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"It about protecting the media's ability to be objectionable and offensive. Is that what we all really want? I dont".
Posted by PRW Richardson on October 6, 2008 6:39 AM"
No it's not. It's about the right of a British subject to hold an
overbearing Parliamentary executive, of whatever persuasion, up to
public scutiny. Taking ito account your sudden appearance on site and
your left-leaning posts, that is not a right you would probably wish to
support.
Posted by Grumpy Old Man on October 6, 2008 7:56 AM
Report this comment
Recently
a person I know, had a friend from Germany come to stay with him for a
week. His conversation was liberally coloured with how Germans hate the
EU and want their country out of it.
This is only one such similar story that is slowly but surely leaking out of that Closed Cabal called the EU.
It is likely, from those leaks, that this discontent and anger is rife all over the EU.
So we, in Britain, are far from alone.
Xenophobia? Probably not.
Time to wise up, friends.
Posted by TESS NASH on October 6, 2008 7:53 AM
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I'm
surprised that Mr Toben wasn't elevated to commisioner status within
the EU and brought in as an education advisor to Browns education
department given the current left wing agenda for dumbing down then
re-writing history. There will come a time when all of the facts
surrounding Germany's actions leading up to, and during WW2 will be
reduced to palatable inconveniences.
The 'laws' being envoked here are yet another triumph for Bin
Ladens gang, not to mention the conspiracy theorists. It will be
interesting to watch the escalation in actual European wide Police
powers to counter the growing discontent of those who dare to speak
out.
Posted by Vandiemen on October 6, 2008 7:23 AM
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You
say that the crime was not committed in Germany. This is a very black
and white view that doesn't take into count the medium he was
committing the crime through. Just because he was sitting in a room in
oz doesn't mean he wasn't committing the crime in Germany, that's the
nature of the internet. Posting propaganda on German websites is the
same as acting as if you were in Germany. Yet another poor article from
a journalist that can not see the other side of the argument.
Posted by Gary on October 6, 2008 7:14 AM
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Ludicrous
I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't read it in a usually reliable paper
Posted by Richard Black on October 6, 2008 6:56 AM
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It
has to be said that Töben is a toe-rag, a deeply unpleasant individual
whose Adelaide Institute regularly publishes hatefilled articles
entitled, for instance, "Filthy Jewish Lies About Iran". These articles
are published globally, so the fact that he published from Australia is
irrelevant. Much of what he has written and published could be
perceived as an offense under UK hate crime laws. I don't like the way
the law is being used, but I am a lot more comfortable with this man's
treatment than I am with the inmates of Guantanamo Bay, for instance.
Posted by Eric Westermann on October 6, 2008 6:53 AM
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Yet
another reason to leave the EU and its thought police. When will we
wake up to the fact THEY are just not like US. We must resist the
constant drive to make US like THEM! Economic "integration" makes some
sense but societal integration does not.
Posted by John Wordsworth on October 6, 2008 6:44 AM
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Readers may ask what the fuss is really all about -
"[The UK has no] legal definition of "xenophobia"
It about protecting the media's ability to be objectionable and offensive. Is that what we all really want? I dont.
Posted by PRW Richardson on October 6, 2008 6:39 AM
Report this comment
Excellent
article. Now count the number of times in this thread Toben's thought
crime is characterised as "reprehensible" or "vile", and his own
character likewise besmirched.
To even begin to be free of the Salem mentality that causes Germans
to criminalise investigation into the Holocaust narrative one has to be
free of false consciousness - the imbibing of beliefs and feelings from
propaganda.
This propaganda is stuffed down our children's throats in primary
school, and shoved at us by Hollywood, and affirmed by paid
politicians. Who here is free? Not many, I fear.
Posted by Guessedworker on October 6, 2008 6:34 AM
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Is
it any wonder that the "European National Anthem" (setting aside that
Europe isn't a "nation") has had the title and wording of Schiller's
"Ode to Freedom" changed to "Ode to Joy"?
In Europe one may be as joyful as one wishes; but only within strict limits and strict control of freedoms.
Posted by Mike Spilligan on October 6, 2008 5:42 AM
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I guess people are frightened to comment against in case the Germans issue an arrest warrant against them.
Who are these Europeans anyway?
Posted by Afraid on October 6, 2008 5:35 AM
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Next up at the EU,
anti-segregation quotas,
mandatating more mixed race,
multicultural neighborhoods.
When people try to move house,
they will be blocked
under the new EU law
declaring that 'white flight'
is a violation of
the neighborhood race quota law,
and therefore
a racist, xenophobic hate act subject to prosecution.
Posted by OurUnionJacked on October 6, 2008 5:23 AM
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This means we have lost our sovriegnty British
law counts for nothing.
We have now been taken over as a nation if
another country can take our citizens and
holding our citizens accountable to foreign law
in our own land.
We simply don't have a country anymore.
At least in the past before extradition someone
would have to show evidence.
I love the UK, but I want OUT. Either UK out of EU
and our country returned or to go somewhere
independent that cares for its citizens e.g.
Canada, Australia, USA,
What is next - if xenophobia is a crime will they
decide that an eurosceptic is also xenophobic so
then the EU will be unstoppable - xenophobia
can be applied to anything its such a catchall
that it can be used to persecute anyone for
THOUGHTCRIME.
I am currently re-reading 1984 - I suggest
everyone does. SOO SOO very much of it is
reminiscent of EU.
What's next a sedition act ? I've lived in countries
with a sedition act that were more free than the
way the EU is going
Posted by Fredd Bloggs on October 6, 2008 5:16 AM
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'Fools rush in....'
So, where does our parliamentary outrage sit over the 42 day rule,
when relatively trivial 'crimes' in Europe can result in exactly that
same situation or worse? When the world-respected British Police Force
detains a terrorist suspect, for whose misdemeanors there is much
circumstantial evidence, but asks for time to get it's case together -
there is self-righteous uproar from Runnymede fans.
Which is potentially worse, the two cases you have cited, or the
guy who may well turn good honest British citizens into strawberry jam,
on some bizarre medieval whim?
I pass!
Posted by Graham King on October 6, 2008 5:01 AM
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When someone
steals your identity
and uses it to commit
financial crime in say, Romania,
and you are extradited
to stand trial,
how do you prove
that it wasn't you
if no one 'saw' the crime?
We in Britain,
indeed all of us in Europe,
are at a critical juncture.
I sense that soon,
there will be upheaval
of the most unsavory sort.
Posted by Sammie Hall on October 6, 2008 4:59 AM
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Having
never heard of Dr.Boden before,who, by one account of your paper
today,is going by first name of Frederic,and by another-by Gerald,I
looked him up on the Net. Well,well..There is no site of his.Just as I
suspected,he doesn't exist.It is an elaborate hoax, perpetrated by the
media.Why?..
Posted by buterfly on October 6, 2008 4:35 AM
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First
the NatWest Three, now this poor misbegotten sod -- it's a great
opportunity for a government for whom ancient rights are tosh to get
rid of anyone they find embarrassing. One can only hope that the
Scandinavians, for whom liberty of expression is non-negotiable, will
make a fuss in the not too distant future.
Posted by R. P. MacKay on October 6, 2008 4:31 AM
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As usual when it comes to Europe we have been lied to and deceived.
As a Briton in Britain I am now bound by German law. Utterly disgraceful.
Posted by Bandraboy on October 6, 2008 4:20 AM
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Like so many other things rushed through, this is a VERY BAD THING!
So what if I say something did not happen?
Let's give it a go: "Margaret Thatcher was not Prime Minister of Britain!"
Anybody believe me? No? Thought not.
Would it be a crime to deny that World War 2 did not happen? Or only parts of it?
99.9999% of the population believe that the holocaust happened, and the
Rawandan Genocide and so on, because they DID happen. There is evidence
that proves it.
Locking someone up just because that person is deluded into saying
something did not happen that we all know did happen is akin to locking
up people who claim that the Titanic never sank or that NASA never
landed on the moon.
That aside it is a total disgrace that the British police even
acted on the warrant and that the lying, self-serving cretins in
government allowed it to become so.
Posted by Shem Horowitz on October 6, 2008 3:46 AM
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Why
all the fuss? Isn't it to be expected of the sometime 7th State of
Europe (position shared with Denmark and Ireland) or the 51st State of
the US?
What happened to your campaign against the unbalanced UK - US
extradtion treaty. It was described as "manifestly unfair" in July
2006, is it still?
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - don't make me laugh.
Posted by Rob Craig on October 6, 2008 2:59 AM
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PC
(Politically Correct) Peter Paperwork was at it again at Heathrow, I
suppose we should be grateful they didn't use those luvverly German
Heckler and Koch machine guns at the departure gates. Did they send
SO-19 in as back-up?
Yes this teacher has warped views. Yes this attempted rewrite of
history is contemptible - all the more so in a teacher...but, let's be
clear on this, this is the thin end of the wedge and many anti-EU
groups in the UK have been warning about future problems with the EAW
for years.
This type of extradition had been predicted the question is what we do about the EU?
Let's sit on our hands as usual and keep voting Lib-Lab-Con and
tut-tutting over the toast and marmalade listening to the warm and cosy
BBC who helped set all this up in league with the FCO, as the next
grand post-war idea which deliberately deceived the British people
about what was intended for them. From town-twinning local authority
jollies, through jeux sans Frontieres (It's a Knockout) and Eurovision,
to the same colour passports and money (thank God we stayed out of that
one)...and now this.
The German funded EU (mainly with Britain second, while the
vainglorious French clean up on hidden EU subsidy, energy takeovers and
the CAP) know it will be hard to go against this particular thought
crime because of public antipathy, but here it starts, the thin end of
the wedge precedent is set, and "our betters" knew it was coming.
Cameron needs to listen; we must end this experiment of EU dominance, which is destroying our political heritage.
The Germans throughout the 19th century, in their Princeling states,
were often admired by the British - their education system, their (and
our) monarchy and religion, their attention to detail and growing
industrial might based on a University sector that had moved away from
Law and Theology towards Science and Mathematics and troubling
new-found industrial muscle. However nascent Germany was also known for
its intolerance of political dissent and soldiers on every street
corner. This, once again, is more of the same and Britain is now
legally tied to this way of doing business.
We must leave the EU and let it find its own way and the British must
refind its own industrial muscle and a role in the world post credit
crunch. We can no longer rely on the financial sector or Big
Government. We must revert to competition and finding an industrial
edge that isn't suppressed by the EU.
When the fight against an unreformable 7th century Islam starts
across Europe, where will the Germans and the EU stand then on throught
control? It's no good dismissing that as right-wing. The indiginous
peoples of Europe feel threatened and EU derived legislation will one
day be peeled away and revealed as a failed attempt at social
engineering.
I wonder whether the Nu-model Germans will have the same zeal in
extraditing UK Islamic extremists as they plot to undermine Europe?
They could all go to prison in Cologne or Berlin, meet their mates,
borrow their prayer mats, and swap martyrdom stories.
We'll keep monitoring them as usual and wait for a political swing or
the threat to melt away as with the 19th century anarchists and 20th
century communists - the British muddling way.
At the moment the Germans only act on those guilty of banned
thought crime that came in with their post-war constitution. When will
anti-EU or anti-Islamic throught crime be also extraditable one
wonders?
Never mind Westminster will be there safeguarding British
interests. I don't think. Let's hope our Intelligence Services at least
are batting for Britain. Who knows anymore let's hope it's not battling
for survival in an EU which wants it all.
Is it any wonder UK politics feels set to tip - and not into the lap of the Tories.
Posted by John Ruddock on October 6, 2008 2:27 AM
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When I read this sad account of how British freedoms have been thrown out of the window, I give thanks that I emigrated.
George Orwell's nightmare has become true because the traditional
British political parties clearly approve of this police state
development.
Even more shameful, the BNP, which is the only party which would put
this atrocity right, is accused, by those who pretend to be the
protectors of our liberties, of being Nazis.
Posted by Herbert Thornton on October 6, 2008 2:10 AM
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AND if Turkey joins the EU one could be held in UK for "genocide affirmation" rather than "holocaust denial"
But if you all have done nothing to hide and therefor have nothing to fear.
What is Cameron's answer to this?
Next up, being tried in absentia for criticizing the EU itself.
Posted by Al Hamilton on October 6, 2008 1:59 AM
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