To: "Jonathan Kirwan" <jkirwan@easystreet.com>
Subject: RE: MASM references
From: "Terry Leeper" <tleeper@microsoft.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:34:25 -0800

Hi Jon,

It was good talking to a guy who still likes assembly (like me)!  My
comments are inline....


-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Kirwan [mailto:jkirwan@easystreet.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 4:33 PM
To: Terry Leeper
Subject: Re: MASM references

Thanks much for the call, today.  Appreciated.

I'd like to summarize my understanding of our conversation and then to
ask a few questions:

(1)  Microsoft currently supports ML as part of the VC++ product set,
not as a separate product on its own right.

*That is correct.*

(2)  Although ML is currently available in the DDKs from Microsoft web
sites, that mechanism is still under review and may change soon
(perhaps prior to or near the release of VC++ 7.0 on Feb 13th, next
year.)  It is possible that the only mechanism remaining will be to
purchase VC++ 7.0.  It is possible that some other method may become
available.

*No.  DDKs will always carry MASM, which is why I was bringing to your
attention.  We are looking at other methods than VC7 and DDK.*

(3)  There was a "licensing issue" of sorts which brought all this to
your attention recently, regarding the lack of a licensing statement
meeting Microsoft policies on ML.

*There was a missing MS EULA in some of the links.  I was also concerned
with a non-MS link.*

(4)  Microsoft does intend, at this time, to continue providing
updates to ML and making it available through the VC++ product
distribution.  Other methods of distribution are still under review.

*Correct.  ML is not going away.*

(5)  On request, Microsoft does sometimes provide ML for use by
universities and colleges for schoolwide educational purposes.

*Correct.*

(6)  The Feb. 13th release version of 7.0 VC++ still won't include
partial template specialization.  However, a later release (not so
delayed as the 6.0 products might lead one to believe) will likely
include it.

*Correct.  A PTS-enabled release will be before 8.0 ships.*

(7)  There is some work going on with the VC++ linker product which
may support embedded purposes.  But no specific information, at this
time.  (It still lacks the features found in GNU's ld.)

*Can you be specific wrt what functionality you would like the linker to
do?*


Some questions:

(A)  Does your group still produce the version 6.1 boxed sets they
used to produce, a few years ago?  Can I get my local college book
store to purchase them for their shelves?  Or is the packaging no
longer in production, at all?

*No, we don't produce that anymore.*

(B)  Can your group consider the possibility of releasing into the
public domain some fixed, older version of MASM or ML together with a
.DOC or .PDF of the manual set?  I'm thinking here of Microsoft's
release of the 6.10 product or similar.  No need to worry about
updating it into the future, since the purpose would be primarily for
personal, educational use and possibly for embedded product use.

*It's possible.  Feel free to let me know your thoughts on the matter.*

.. .. ..

I hope you don't mind me asking these questions.  I commit about 300
to 500 hours a year as a volunteer, after-hour science teacher and on
occasion, I get a few students wondering how they can learn assembly
language mostly on their own.  When I think about answering that
question, I really wish I could point them to the ML program and to
the documentation for it -- the docs were excellent references and
very helpful; better than much else out there.  Randall Hyde's AofA is
an excellent supplement, but it would be much better to have the
Microsoft documents available for their use.  The bare ML program just
doesn't cut it.

*I taught assembly at the university level when I was in grad school, so
I like ML, too!  Your requests are duly noted.*

Frankly, I really don't think that Microsoft would be harmed in any
way by releasing the 6.10 version.  I actually think it would be a
positive PR boon without a downside.  But I don't have your
visibility, of course.  Still, I'd like to encourage you to consider
the possibility.

Thanks much for your time,
Jon