Organized Religion (READ FIRST POST CAREFULLY)

[muaddib]

This post is to discuss the possibility that organized religion is nothing but "mind control" tactics. This is NOT A RELIGIOUS FLAME WAR. Any deliberate attacks on a specific religion will NOT be tolerated. Facts about specific religions may be stated, as well as opinions, but there will be no outright attacking of anyone or their religion.

I personally believe that organized religion is a form of mind control. There are a lot of reasons but the most important to me is the fact that most organized religions believe that they are the ONLY right religion. How can that be? How can a tribal native living in the jungles of South America go to hell because he does not embrace Jesus. He has never even heard of Jesus. Organized religion is also mind control because one of the main goals of a religion (in my eyes) is to enforce a certain code of morals, ethics, and behaviors on a group of people. There are consequences for not following the path that the religion sets for you (you go to "hell", etc.) and this is not right. If God made us free to choose, he didn't make us free to choose with restrictions on what choices we can and can't make. That is not freedom.

Once again, NO attacks, NO flames. Opposite opinions are welcome, let's turn this into a good debate. Let's respect each other's opinions and express our own with dignity. I hope this doesn't create something bad...have fun : :shock:

[Crudd]

Heres a nice link to take a look at. Lots of interesting info about christanity. http://www.bluehoney.org/Spirituality.htm
Crudd

[muaddib]

Blocked "Abused Drugs" :P

[sai]

muaddib, you are totally right. I never accepted religion to conquer parts of my life although I accept that other people may believe in "god" and go to church and so on. To me, religion is just the most stupid thing ever invented by human beings and it is much more dangerous than any nuclear weapon.

[linus]

Most of you are probably familiar with Marx's quote, "Religion is the opiate of the masses."

This begs the question, why do the masses need to be subdued?

A good book on this topic is "The Lucifer Principle (http://www.bookworld.com/lucifer/)." It outlines in greatly researched detail that masses of humans and their collective actions highly resemble individual organisms and their actions. Bloom uses the term, 'superorganism' to symbolize this concept.

One of the criteria for the existence of a superorganism is shared memes. This is the 'collective subconscious' of the superorganism that allows it to act without thinking. Regardless of what the conspiracy theorists believe, the stupid white men that make grand sweeping decisions that affect millions are but the brains of the superorganism. Bloom shows that we seem to be part of a giant pulsating superorganism that has its own agendas, of which we are only a part.

It seems clear to me that Marx may have been correct in his assumptions about religion subduing the masses in his day, but in our present day how much does it subdue? The belief structure/system that a superorganism holds forces it to move when stimulated in the proper ways. An interesting author called this a 'neucoid-coorelation matrix'.

So, if religion itself is merely a neucoid-coorelation matrix that is composed of memes that, when prodded in the correct ways, forces a superorganism to act, what then?

That, we must all decide for ourselves. Take for example the recent advertising campaign in america that uses the words, 'what would jesus drive' as its slogan. This campaign is prodding the neucoid-coorelation matrix of memes within the super-organism of fundementalist christians who look to jesus (their saviour) for the example of how to conduct their lives in ways that further their cause. Namely, reducing the consumption of foreign oil in america.

So, to conclude, it is true that religion is a 'mind control' system that is used to manipulate masses of people. But, it is not beyond the resources of a few individuals to reverse the belief system and use it to their own advantage. Just something to keep, 'in mind'.

linus

[muaddib]

Great post linus!

Sai: I do believe in a "god" maybe not a God or a god but a "god" ... a collective subconscious as linus put it. It may be personified as a god or not, but I believe that to some degree it exists.

I like linus' interpretation of the wwjd advertising campaign. I never thought of it that way (especially the fact that it is designed to reduce foreign oil in america...strange...) but yes religion can very well be used as a mind control in that sort of fashion.

Religion fills a gap in the lives of most people in some way...and they need it. For some reason it makes the vast majority of our population feel like they are a part of something special...like someone is watching over them.

It has also been used as a form of total control (ie the crusades, witch trials, settlers in america, etc.) thousands of times throughout history. It is (was?) a scary force to deal with on that level.

Religion has also influenced our laws, ideals as people, and ways of life so we must also look at it in a positive light. Although maybe not directly (if you don't fall for religion) it has influenced you to be the very person you are through your surroundings. We must look at it in a good way because our society, technology, and many things we have were discovered or invented partly or fully because of religion.

What are some of the good/bad points of religion?

[kw]

My two cents...

To think about anything, you need to see it in its purest form to analyze it best. In the case of religion this would be a matter of time.. We would need to go back to the middle ages, or even further than that perhaps.

Back then, empires had trouble controlling their people.. There was no organized justice system, or law as we know today. Thus, religion was easily accepted by the nobles of most countries, partly by their own willingness to believe in a life after death. This added a third group to society.. There were the nobles, who controlled the lands and fought wars. There was also religious group, who were indirectly controlling the third group, which was the general population.. The general population did the rest, the regular work.. Provide food, build things, trade, etc.
Now, the reason why religion was such a 'hit', was the simple fact that societies functioned MUCH better when they had a religion..

Imagine two different situations:
- A man who's wife has died (which happened quite easily in those days) and he will never see again, which leaves him rather depressed, has to do some work for an oppressive leader that tells him that if he doesn't do so, he will get whipped.

- The same man who's wife has died, which he is told has gone to a very beautiful place called 'heaven', where everyone is always happy, who knows that if he follows the rules the religious leaders say (work hard, dont commit crimes, etc.) he will go to this very happy wonderful place, and see his lost loved ones again.

The difference is in how these two men would act.. The first man would not be motivated, and would be entirely undependable.. While the second man would work as hard as he could, be a model citizen, and generally function very well in society.


Of course, science has disproven a lot about religion (the big bang is one example, the earth being round is another ;)). So in modern times, religion has made compromise after compromise, and is constantly just as abstract as necessary so people will still find it credible. I dont believe in a god of any sort, even the most abstract ones people try to create to justify still believing in a 'god'. The aforementioned collective subconscious is a good example of this. Don't get me wrong, I believe the theories behind us all acting as a seeming 'superorganism' is correct.
Though, I see no reason to believe there is any pattern to it. It is just simple biological function. We (humans) evolved as organisms and all have different minds, which all have to function together in one society.. This forces us to all work together (we are a solidary species) and act as one 'superorganism' we could also call 'global society'. This does not mean it has a plan however, just because we can't prove it *doesn't*.
(which is how most attempts to save religion as a concept are started now, by "BUT HOW CAN YOU PROVE IT DOESNT" which really isnt much of an argument when you think about it)
My post is getting quite long,
I suppose I had better cut it off here..
I'll end by saying this, perhaps I've formulated some things poorly, I'm just typing as I go along. Excuse me if I've offended someone, but I believe I have not bashed any religious area in particular (believing in no religion at all makes me treat every one of them equally I guess ;))

Just my thoughts, please THINK about what I'm saying.. Don't think I'm wrong just because you've always thought different, try to see thngs from my point of view and reason with me..

-Kwazy Webbit

PS, A nice quote to think about too, if you are indeed a religious person:

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
-- Stephen Roberts

[SantMat]

I got a sec here....more later

Concerning 'wwjd', 'What would Jesus Do'

Well, to sum up the absurdity of that whole 'thing':

wwjd?, well first and foremost I know that he sure wouldn't go around wearing braclets and necklaces with 'wwjd' on them ;p And trying to pump himself up to others.

hehe, always liked that

[evilTeach]

I'd like to pose a slightly modified view RE the "mind control" issue.

Religion of an artifact of a society. It is an attempt to "civilize" the masses. In that respect, religion is a tool (and just one of many) used by a society to subdue it's members. Other tools would include television and radio (and possibly even computers and the internet?) It is civilization itself that is all about "Mind Control". Religion is just one of the ways to achieve the means.

Freud wrote a short text, "Civilization and It's Discontents." In it he proposes that civilization exists to suppress mankind's primal nature, but that this attempt is destined to fail. If you suppress these emotions by one means they'll find another way to re-emerge.

I believe that religion has been a very powerful tool used by civilization. Was religion originally intended to be used this way? Probably not. I picture one "caveman" sitting near a fire sharing his philosophy on life, with other "cavemen" nodding their heads in agreement, calling the first a "wise man". In all likelyhood, that first man didn't want to control anyone. He was just sharing his ideas. It's the others, without their own creative answers to life's mysteries, who put the first man up on a pedestal, creating a religion around his ideas (if not around the man himself).


Poor Jesus! Poor Buddha! The icons of religions around the world have become unwitting (and maybe even unwilling) pawns of a society that is using them to control others. But WHY???

Last question: What does a group (like the folks at the Vatican) gain through their use of religion in this way? Money? Power? Is that all it's really about?

I see that I've mostly posed questions and rambled on here! Sorry if my comments have been a waste! Also, please excuse my complete use of the masculine examples throughout! For all anyone knows, it was a woman that started this whole ball rolling :wink:

[linus]

It does seem to be true that religion is used to control the public. Following that thought, one must ask why that occurs. This, is extremely complex. Let's take your mourning serf example, in modern day times.

An individual works for a major corporation in the United States and is Catholic. What benefits does this individual, let's call him Muhammed, percieve himself to gain from adhering to the Catholic dogma?

(These are merely possibilities)

1. Eternal life in union with an infinite and all loving God and all of his dead relatives (who were also Catholic).
2. Not burning in a lake of fire for eternity.
3. The opportunity to be part of a community (while on this Earth) that has indirect benefits of its own.

What is the sum of these benefits, let's say the 'meta-benefit' that Muhammed may or not be aware of? It is the opportunity to be comfortable in the belief that 'things are going to be okay'. This opportunity to be comfortable is the driving force behind humanities achievements, in my opinion.

So if this is the driving force behind most human actions, what is the necessary consequence? That those with power will attempt to use their power in order to make themselves comfortable. Those in power justify their lack of moral obligation to look after the comfort of others by using Ayn Rand type philosophies of "reasonable self-interest." Regardless of that, it is clear that some people will sacrifice other's comfort in order to be more comfortable themselves.

So, logically then, in order to make myself more comfortable, I need people to work for me, and make me money. How do I convince them to do that? By making them comfortable, so they don't have to question their surroundings, they can 'just do their job'.

So religion then, is the result of the human drive to make ourselves and our families comfortable on this planet.

One can further draw back the scope of the critical eye to find the purpose of these repetitive actions that lead to a comfortable existenz. What ends does this drive of comfort achieve? The ability for reproduction is the most obvious. The continuation of our species. This is what Richard Dawkins refered to as 'the selfish gene'. It can be argued either way, whether or not the ultimate purpose of our existenz is to further our species, and that we are only doing our DNA's bidding, but for the sake of argument, let's say it is true. So if it is true that we are merely husks that have developed over time for our DNA to be comfortable and therefore continue, what is religion?

It is one of the necessary illusions that most humans give themselves unkowingly because their DNA demands it. I sometimes imagine the DNA within us whispering in our ears says, "Yeah, you'll live a life eternal in heaven.....sure....." And then the DNA snickers... But, that's just my twisted imagination :shock: [/i]

[Soros]

"... man has dominated man to his injury"—Ecclesiastes 8:9.

As an example the leaders while JC was here was a bunch of greedy jerks as far as I'm concerned: "because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things"—Matthew 23:23.

And as we can understand, "God is [a God], not of disorder, but of peace."—1 Corinthians 14:33.

So the creator of all standards and moral standards obviously know very well what justice means.

“Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness."—Genesis 1:26.

"Then that slave that understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do in line with his will will be beaten with many strokes. But the one that did not understand and so did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him; and the one whom people put in charge of much, they will demand more than usual of him."—Luke 12:47-48.

"As regards the resurrection of the dead, did you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32*‘I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob’? He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living.”—Matthew 22:31-33.

[Thigo]

Even if what I will post here (first post ever here, hi guys(/girls?) !) will probably be the same as other did before, i'd like to comment on this.
I do not personnaly believe in any god or any supernatural influences (as Asimov named them) and I want to say that I respect people who have a religion and are fervent in it, as long as they're not fanatic / extremists.

This beeing stated, I can go further. I think that religion was the consequence of an unexpressed need, I mean, in the beginning of history, people had very hard lifes and needed sth in which they could get strenght and comfort. If you consider the texts of the 3 main religions (at least, the occidental / arabic ones, the ones I can talk about since I know almost nothing about other religions), you can see that they all extol (ultralingua rox) the love of your fellow man but, as they became bigger, they needed head to lead them. And as always, when power is in the game, some did bad things with their power and, because the mass following this religion was uneducated, they followed their leaders blindly, thinking they were acting for their own good.

Religion isn't a bad thing, it's needed, or at least, it was needed because it seems that nowadays (in our occidental civilisation) people are more down to earth than before or maybe they find other ways to escape the hard life.

Just my 2 cents,
Thigo

[w00tz`]

Religion is something that people can pick up on to have in their lives as some type of motivation, even though that the most prostrated argument for no God is the natural human being initiative to believe in a "Big Brother" but that still does not cover the bases of the God existence. Let's look at it this way, in terms of some C code ;-)



if ( god.Exists() == true && you.Believe() == true )

* * you win completely, if god exists and you believe in him, expect no punishment of that sort

else

* *//now down to the other conditions

* *if (god.Exists() == false && you.Believe() == true)

* *//you still win, you didn't die a non-beleiver so u just lay there in your grave

*

*but* here's teh big issue

*

* if( god.Exists() == true && you.Believe() == false)

* * *you're fucked. its not even funny, all that hell and shit they talk about will be on your ass

*

*if( *god.Exist() == false && you.Believe() == false)

* * you win.,



*

now taking all the cases and the result that since you have 2 different options you can only have 4 combinations of 2 different / similar choice, mathematically its wiser to believe in God based on consequences.



if you are accepting the first 50 percent of believing in a god you win both ways, however if determined NOT to believe in a god and there is one that exists, you are risking possibly a torment of Hell and Brimstone (and all that lovely gruesome punishment imagination)



so taking my chances, i'd rather believe in some God than believe in none at all, just due to simple arithmetic.





ciao

[Pinczakko]

I think that religion is not truly "mind control" or something like that. It's just some or maybe big part of their followers practice things that to other people seems like a "mind control". To my view-point, it's more like a "rules of behaviour" for human, to make their life "as human as possible". Unfortunately lots of the religion's followers just take things for granted, they don't analyze it. Human is a free creature, we can behave as we want it to be, but that doesn't mean we can do anything. There are some things that will destroy ourselves, civilization, etc. if we proceed doing it anyway. I myself hardly accept any religion before it can convince me in all aspects of mylife, most importantly does it makes sense at all? As the most logical approach to this thing, I learned several religions holybooks, to see what they may have inside of it, and I'm not done yet. Anyway, if they are right then they must have something in it to prove it :). Anyway, since most of the holybook stated implicitly or explicitly that it's universally accepted, it must have been using some form of symbolism. Since to me, without it, how can it explains things that happen after it was written. To put simply, my approach to this is "hacking the holybooks". This will show me what exactly within those books. Anyway, just my own opinion ;)

[Devine9]

Does anyone know much about Kaballah? or however you spell it.. I watched a documentary on it last night on television.. I guess 3 people in California have become priests of it and commercialized the shit out of it.. and are ripping off a lot of people, primarily hollywood stars etc.. selling red string to go around the wrist for $25 etc.

I have known others however in the past that have been with this religion and it was similar to the jewish religion.. perhaps a spinoff but focused a little closer to rasta.. who knows, but the documentary basically cut it all up to shit and exposed the priests for ripping off the people.. I wonder how such a documentary would be received if it were focused a a more predominant religion.

-DR

[anunitu]

This can be a very charged subject, depending on a persons "Belief", That being somewhat undefined in a solid reality. Talk of "Faith", something believed without any direct physical data to see and examine. That is what keeps religions going, it is "BAD" not to have "faith" in many religions. It seems that if you can't just believe on "Faith", then "GOD" won't recognise you. I am not a religious person, but I wouldn't say I am not spiritual..There is a difference. I can see and feel the effects of nature, and try and understand how the various factors(Animal life,insect life,etc.) co-exist, and effect each other. Also weather effects life here. Though it is a very complex system, it IS a system we can study, and try to understand.

Religion needs "Faith" to continue, while a Spiritual nature requires the ability to alter perceptions if and when one finds an alternate solution to a theory of how nature interacts. The Spiritual nature, adapts, rather that just accepting things, without researching them as in orginised religion. I do understand that a lot of people "need" religion", as a social control, that has been the case from the beginning of religious thought. My main problem with "Religion" is when it becomes political and attains enough power to disrupt and attempt to force people to follow it. I am a rational person, and "faith" is not always rational...I may come back to this subject later...

Anunitu :unsure:

[mysticdrew]

IMHO religion is

1. Control
2. A way to give meaning to our meaningless lives.
3. control
4. Greed of the church to take our money.
5. control
6. Give a reason to why things are the way they are.
7. control.
8. Gives us hope that there is life after death.
and
9. control

[quitsendingmetrash]

Life is rather bizarre. For instance how curiosity has gathered us. How does that joystick control the character on the screen? How does that tape contain music? How do I get my computer to do what I want it to do. How can I break that protection? How do locks work, and how the hell do I pick one? Did I have to be born? If my parents did not have sex, would I still be forced into this damned world? If there is a God, how did things get so fucked up?! Is time man made or did the Unknown bind us in it? Who came first Adam or the caveman? What is the opposite of time?

How do you discuss religion withOUT all the onesidedness and emotions? Everybody has a different life, different experiences, thoughts, perspectives... Perspective! Maybe that could help out. Let's combine some aspects of Reversing with that of Irrelevantism.

The reverser's mentality does not need much elaboration. It is curious and persistent. Often rebellious and nonLemmingish. A reverser will come across much garbage that others call software. What he does not like he can adapt, what he does like he can consume. It can take a lifetime to become the ultimate reverser. Things are always changing. Regardless, deep down inside he's always had that feeling/calling/curiosity whatever you want to call it.

The irrelevantist, well the word itself says it all. Everything is irrelevant. You believe in God, you don't believe in God, SO WHAT!!! You think this, you think that, AND??? How many people have lived before you and how many more will live after? Where does one measly life get its significance? If one is insignificant then all are. It goes along with these statements: If you have thought of something, then someone else has already thought it. If you think of something, it is already on the net, even if you can't find it. To take irrelevantism to its extreme! If one blew up the entire world (all of creation) and destroyed all mankind it would prove everything is irrelevant. It would not harm anyone, because no one is left. No mourning, no pain, just nothingness. If God existed it would still be irrelevant because the good would be in happiness, the bad in horribleness. It could never change, because you're in your eternal dwelling. If there was no God then guess what, IRRELEVANT!

Man really is an ignorant being. He thinks he knows things. He thinks he can do great wonders. He looks back on the generations of the past and laughs at the beliefs and conclusions of his predecessors!!! Later generations will do the same to his. He builds upon foundations that were laid before him, then claims rights. There was a time when people would not have believed in microOrganisms, invisible light rays, or a round earth. The ignorance of man's past entrusts his ignorance in the future.

My point is that if you want to know about reversing. You can read books or webPages. You can seek guidance from another. You can try a couple crackmes. You could spend many a year dibbling and dabbling. You get out of it what you put in it. If there is a God, I imagine it would take the same dedication to build a relationship.

If someone claims that some code is irreversible does that mean you believe them. Since so many people are using Microsoft that means it is the best. OpenBSD is the most secure operating system. Ruby is the most beautiful of all the programming languages. If you really want to know something, eventually you have to get your hands dirty, get your mind a crank'n, do some examining and determining of your own.

A problem with religion is there is no hard proof that guarantees it in all minds. A faith based system. Many of those that are faithful to one religion will be the first to reject the next one. Even if I become religious, am I still destined to hell for choosing the wrong one? The flip side is that there is no hard proof that guarantees God does not exist. Man can claim that his science has proven God is false. Science is just his interpretation of things once/still unknown. If I was the Ultimate, could I not just snap my fingers and bigBang the universe into existence? Man's vain attempts to disprove God with science may be better off realizing that he is trying to disprove something that religion never had the rights to claim. Is the world square? What's that got to do with religion? When was the last time someone's God divinely intervened and informed the father of their religion that the sun was a box?

God == THE Mathematician ??

Someone brought up the Kaballah. I don't know much about it. Although I once read a book about it. I don't remember the title and it is one of those that I loaned out and haven't received back. I have always been curious about the reason of my existence. Did I have to be and what the hell for. This Kaballah book had three reasons for existence. Only one can I recall. I'll just put it in my own words: Everything is energy. The universe, the stars, the lifeForces, etc. So lets just picture all preLife (human for the time being) as one giant energy ball. Maybe even God is part of this giant energy ball. So everyone is part of the all. There are no individuals because all are a whole. There is no understanding or appreciation of loneliness, love, pain, withdrawal, fear, creativity, separation, existence, etc. because all have always been, and has always been one. When you are born you are plucked from the ball. Now you are an individual, alone, separate. While living your life you realize you look, think, act, and ARE different from all the others around you. You are here to realize who you are. Your actions and experiences here in life evolve you into what you are to become. Now death passes. You go back to the energy ball. So what's the difference? Well now even though you are part of a whole, all one energy ball, you know WHO you are amongst the rest. You have become a unique piece of the whole. You now understand and appreciate love, togetherness, etc.

Another thing that always bothered me with religion is the damnation part. How is this determined. Who exactly is to be damned. After much pondering, and after reading the Kaballah book something dawned on me. Looking at it from a Kaballah'n point of view may shed a little light. Just maybe if we all do go back to a whole, this may not only insist that I am a unique part of everyone, but that we all know what everyone else has EVER thought and done. So if we all know all the details about ourselves and everyone else, what is the need for a judgement day? Or what exactly is a judgement day? If we all know and we all are what we lived, then everyone is simply where they belong. If all you did/thought was good. Everyone would see you as that. If all you did was bad... So whether or not there is a judgement day is a mute point because everyone knows what/who/where you are based on you/the life you lived.

Man is free to choose? That gets to me sometimes. Man is not free to choose shit. I don't know about you but I don't remember choosing to come to this place. Sure once I'm here I can choose to be a jerk or a nice guy. How many choices do we really have. Regardless of how we got here(came to existence), we have to breath, eat, drink, etc. There are some rules that still must be followed. Such as worlds and galaxies orbiting. Many things we have no choice of. I still can not fly.

So who did come first? Adam? or the caveman? Did God create Adam. Adam pissed off God. God kicked Adam out of his paradise and took the majority of his knowledge away. Adam goes out to the land of the caveman. Caveman learns from Adam. Adam's lineage mates with cavePeople's. || Did God create the caveman. The caveman evolved to Adam only to be turned back into a cavemanish being? Ok I'm going to far! Got to think that one out better.

I've met many that believe we were created by aliens. Ok cool. I'll buy that for a dollar. Except wouldn't that be admitting the need of a creator? So, who created the aliens?

Translations? Transliterations? Interpretations? PERSPECTIVE? How many, which ones, and by whom? Hmmm... Let's use the story of the Tower of Babel. From the eyes of a journalist, no this was back in the day so I will call him a documenter. Our documenter stumbles across the desert to find a group of tribes(all speaking the same language) constructing a structure. Wow! what is that? We are building a tower to reach heaven. Can you really do that? We are going to find out! Over the months our documenter records the daily activities. About the time they are reaching the closet they've come to the clouds, various tribes(all speaking different languages) from separate regions within the line of sight of the radius(the tower) start to gather in their own villages. Whoa! What's that? I don't know. Some of us better go check it out. Let's go! In time all kinds of people from all kinds of unknown regions are piling into the district of the tower. Yes all speaking unknown tongues. Of course our religious documenter comes to the conclusion God has been angered and punishes the infidels with the curse of babbling speech. How could they be so wretched, to think they could build to the heavens!

One more before I go Enochian on you!

Wonders/Ponders? Aren't I full of them? So how did things get so weary? If there is an Almighty how did we get so far off track? Another one of my bothersomes. Here is my concoction. Let's compare God to a grandpa. Eventually a great...great grandpa. Grandpa is just a daddy right now cause he only has two sons. One is the ideal son. The other rebellious and hateful. Around the age of manhood the rebellious son takes off across the world to never come in contact with his previous family again. While the other lives off the land his father has given him. The ideal son has children. They grow up and mature with everyday interaction with there grandfather. Picking up on his beliefs/intelligence/wisdom/knowledge/love/etc. The rebel is off somewhere in the unknown. Eventually has kids of his own. These children grow up under the wing of their demented chipOnHisShoulder father. Whether he is all that bad or not is almost irrelevant. The point is: the one set of children will grow up without the interaction of their grandfather. They have never even been told anything about him. They never had the opportunity to come in contact with such a righteous mentor. Now imagine what happens through the generations... I will not drag on about how bad the one son's lineage can become. Just want to point at how far they would be from the grandpa. Generations down the line never having the knowledge that they could have had. Is it the children's fault? Is it the grandpa's fault? Is there even a fault? Is it just the way things have become?

The book of Enoch? Anyone down for more?
I'm ready to quit, I did promise so here goes: This is a quite recent light bulb that went bling bling in my head. I'm far fetching here so enjoy. Back in the time when the fallen angels came to earth and bore children with the daughters of man. They showed them the knowledge of the metals of earth, the art of crafting weapons such as swords, knives, shields, etc. Revealing enchantments, makeup, astrology, weather, rootCutting, etc. The angels knew such great mysteries, but all where worthless ones. They taught such things to WOMEN and men that God never intended for them to be introduced. With these great technologies man has done such horrific doings. Even to this day we build and thrive on advancements that we learned from the angels. I have spent more time on the computer than I have done anything else. It was able to be invented through these teachings. Does that make it evil for me to use my computer? That's not the question I am interested in asking/answering. The question is how much distraction has tvs, computers, videogames, cars, theories, sciences, maths, astrologies, nuclear weapons, etc. taken away from the true intent God had for us creatures? So if man is to be judged, does man do the judging of the angels? So if all of these things are truly distractions to keep me away from God. How much time and effort must I spend to find him. Do I even have a chance? Is there even a God?

I once asked a wise man: Why must so many people from all over different parts of the globe create some form of God? It was designed in ther nature to do such! Was the answer I got. So must man seek God? Obviously not each individual, what about the rest. If I raise some test tube babies on Mars or in the middle of the Earth, with no contact with the rest of man/civilization, will they eventually create a God? How about a government? Is the need for a government just a byProduct/steppingStone of the need for a God?

To actually answer the original question. Yes, organized religion definitely is/canBe a form of mind control. The greedy will always exploit the ignorant. Sometimes I think that is why the earth spins on a crooked axis. Perhaps, that's my point. Why an organized religion? If one wants to know should one not seek God oneself? In the end who's going to get you in heaven? Is it all the others in your religion? Why a religion at all? Mind control???????? Or is religion just a, way off the track, form of beliefSharing? How many think Abraham was interested in the religions/beliefs/gods of others? Just maybe he was so disgusted with all the ignorants around him and sought out to seek a real God.

AAhhh, did all that just come off the tip of my fingers!!?
Excuse me for:
Still going! Nothing outlasts the jibberJabber/babelJabber! It keeps going, and going, and going...

[BiteR]

muaddib, you are totally right. I never accepted religion to conquer parts of my life although I accept that other people may believe in "god" and go to church and so on. To me, religion is just the most stupid thing ever invented by human beings and it is much more dangerous than any nuclear weapon.

100% agree with you :)


IMHO religion is

1. Control
2. A way to give meaning to our meaningless lives.
3. control
4. Greed of the church to take our money.
5. control
6. Give a reason to why things are the way they are.
7. control.
8. Gives us hope that there is life after death.
and
9. control

100% agree with you :)

in my words any religion or secta is a VIRUS :D

[nanoreactor]

All of these criticisms are easy to make from the comfort of a world that was built by organized religion. One, rather, a few posts stated organized religion == control. This is undeniable. What I wonder, though, is weather or not those people think they need to be controlled. Did they spring from the womb already able to make choices that benefited the maximum number of people? Did they figure it out on their own? Or did people tell them along the way, "No that is wrong, do this instead". Our instinct is to be purely selfish, but we are 'controlled' into acting otherwise by society. A child who does not receive this control remains a selfish monster for his/her entire life. We have no choice but to be controlled. Our only real choice is what to be controlled by. Instinct? An addiction? or some rather hard to pin down sense of right and wrong? Where does that sense of right and wrong come from? It's easy (and quite plausible) to chalk it up to evolution. "We do what is best for the hive because we are programmed to do so". However, we stopped evolution 10,000 years ago when the first person decided it would be a good idea to heal the sick, feed the hungry, and shelter the poor. When the weak survive, evolution is severely impeded. Perhaps even rendered mute. What then stops me from killing people? (I am sure I am not the only one to have been sorely tempted!) I certainly don’t fear other humans. I could kill them just as easily. Fear of divine retribution has the lion’s share of responsibly for keeping people behaved over the last several thousand years. No amount of law enforcement ever really changes the crime rate. It's kind of hard to argue weather or not organized religion is right or wrong with a straight face because our society was created by organized religion. It smacks of children discussing weather or not their parents 'get it'. A fear of god will always create a society where the maximum number of people can find some measure of contentment. Without a higher power (or at least a belief in one) any sense of right and wrong is nothing but self-righteousness, and no one respects self-righteousness. So believe whatever you like, follow the morals you borrowed from the Ten Commandments, and sleep well knowing that you are being protected by those who do not care about you, but protect you anyways because they believe in something greater than this madness we call life. People who will fight for you so that you have nothing more pressing to worry about than "is religion right or wrong?".

I forgot to make my point! lol, my point is, its pointless to argue the existance of a god because its impossible to prove either way, Organized religion, however, is a very important part of human society that i don't feel we will ever stop needing. God or no god, we need religion. And if any of you ever experaince truely hard times (im not talking bill collecter phone calls!) youll see why.

[mih1]

Truth is you don't realy need a certain religion to tell what right and wrong.You can feel that yourself.You can feel what's right and what's wrong.
Speaking of control.Humanity does not have much control with or without religion.

[karma]

Hi Dudes...
do you know about fuzzy logic? fuzzy logic says: never agree and disagree 100% with anything in this world. I believe thats true... There are many many many many... factors in a single phenomenon. everything is good and everything is bad... Einstein tried to say this by his mathematical theories that we are not totally of what is happening around us and theres NO absolute!!! i cant say that the whisky is bad or good. but i can say that the whisky can be used as a drug to heal some diseases but if you overuse it will be harmful. thats a little bit complicated, we cant discuss it here. the only thing we can do is to stop denying.

[leenco12]

Blocked "Abused Drugs" :P

muaddib, you are totally right. I never accepted religion to conquer parts of my life although I accept that other people may believe in "god" and go to church and so on. To me, religion is just the most stupid thing ever invented by human beings and it is much more dangerous than any nuclear weapon