Ä [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Ä Msg : 80 of 86 + 83 From : LANCE REICHERT 9:2400/120 Thu 26 May 94 09:03 To : ALL Subj : Beginner's Gun Book ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I am starting to get serious about buying a gun. Lacking a handy, reliable mentor, I have purchased a book called "Beginner's Guide to Guns and Shooting" by Clair F. Rees. It appears to be written at about my level. It strongly encourages purchase of a 22 rimfire as a starting rifle or handgun, largely so the novice can focus on safety and hitting the target without having to contend with the distractions of excessive noise and recoil. Have any of you seen this book? If so, is there anything he's flat out wrong about? In consideration of today's political climate, is his recommendation of a first gun still valid or is there something overriding his reasoning? Finally, he noted that there is a conversion kit to adapt the Colt 45 ACP to fire 22LRs. He noted that it was an expensive kit. (Anybody know how expensive?) Does this sound like a good compromise, considering that the Colt is the handgun to which I hope to graduate. Rees said that there is at least one state in which it is legal to put a loaded gun in plain view on the front seat in your car but where it is illegal to carry it unloaded, disassembled, and inaccessible in the trunk. Clearly, logic and common sense won't keep me out of trouble. To where should the neophyte turn to get up to speed on national, state, and local controls on the purchase (local and interstate & what about interstate gifts?), use, and transport of firearms? I'll need a concise, understandable summary, preferably all in one place with a good index. (Dream on...) Lance ==>-------- -=- + OLX 2.1 TD * A fault recognized is half corrected. --- SLMAIL v4.0 (#0386) * Origin: LIghthouse BBS Filebone Hub 319-366-1985 (9:2400/120) Ä [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Ä Msg : 81 of 86 Loc From : Larry Gowdy 9:2500/0 Sun 29 May 94 13:46 To : Lance Reichert Subj : Re: Beginner's Gun Book ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ LR> purchase of a 22 rimfire as a starting rifle or handgun, largely so LR> the novice can focus on safety and hitting the target without having LR> to contend with the distractions of excessive noise and recoil. Probably a good idea. For those of us that have been shooting guns most all our lives, noise and recoil aren't even considered much (we're already deaf and dumb,,, I mean Numb! ). Few guns are so loud or hard kicking that they would be something to fear. The one and most important thing for the beginner is indeed to become familiar with guns, learn not to point (or shoot) them at people, how to maintain and clean the gun, and to get used to the actions of storing and the general handling of a gun. Like being scared the first time you drove a car, you'll probably be nervous the first time with a gun. 22s are like bumper cars, about as safe as they come, and lots of fun to learn with. LR> In consideration of today's political climate, is his recommendation LR> of a first gun still valid or is there something overriding his LR> reasoning? Still a valid recommendation for a beginner. Probably always will be. The only problem with a 22 is that you'll outgrow it very quickly. Within a couple weeks you'll be wanting a 7.62x39 or 30-06 or something. IMHO, I'd recommend getting a 22 rifle such as the Ruger 10/22 or Remington Viper to learn on, and be able to do some serious hunting with later too. Nothing beats a 22 for rabbits and other small game (the critter of choice for survival hunting). (BYW, I don't own a Viper but have been seriously considering one for a long time. Knowing Remington, they're probably very good rifles, plus they're very light and inexpensive). Don't think of your first gun as a temporary one, think of it as one that you're going to be using for many years to come no matter how many others you buy. 22 ammo is cheap ($10 per 500), and you'll be wanting to do a lot of plinking with it rather than throwing 50 cent bullets down range all the time. I have a semiauto Remington 22 rifle my dad got me for my 16th birthday almost 25 years ago that still looks like new, and we still use it regularly for target practise. As for a handgun, I don't know. I haven't shot many 22 pistols, but as a comparison, the Ruger MkII 22 pistol is louder and has more of a kick than the Ruger P89 9mm pistol (or at least it does for me). Aside from target practise, 22 pistols don't have a lot of other uses (self protection is questionable with such a diminutive caliber). Guess my idea here would be just to make sure you buy one that looks and feels good. Hey, they're designed to be fun anyway, not something to really brain storm over. Just for comparison, 22 ammo = 2 cents each, 9mm = 13.5 cents ea, 45 = 20 cents ea., premium 308 = $1 ea, and some biggies run $5 ea.. The big advantage to a 22 is you can shoot all day long for under 5 bucks. LR> Finally, he noted that there is a conversion kit to adapt the Colt 45 LR> ACP to fire 22LRs. He noted that it was an expensive kit. (Anybody LR> know how expensive?) Does this sound like a good compromise, LR> considering that the Colt is the handgun to which I hope to graduate. I believe the kits range from $100.00 to $200.00. Hmmmm, guess that'd have to be matter of personal preferences. I like having lots of guns in lots of calibers in lots of sizes (most are still on my wish list however). Now if you were going to just get a cheap-o 22 pistol and then the Colt, I'd say get the two. If you're looking at some high dollar 22s, the conversion kit may be more realistic. Hard choice, but too, if you think you might be teaching someone else to shoot later on (a wife, daughter, son, friend), the extra gun would be nice. One thing to be aware of here is that the actions and safeties are usually quite a bit different between pistols. The Colt 1911 compared to say a typical 22 auto is like a Harley compared to a scooter. To me, the actions on the 22 autos are horrible, and possibly a little dangerous. The 22 semi-autos will jam fairly frequently and that posses an extra problem. Have you considered getting a 22 single action '6 shooter'? Very reliable, easy to operate, far more accurate usually, considerably safer, and about the same price. (dang, now I'm wanting one......) LR> To where should the neophyte turn to get up to speed on national, LR> state, and local controls on the purchase (local and interstate & what LR> about interstate gifts?), use, and transport of firearms? I'll need a Call your local police and sheriff's departments. Usually, they'll be able to answer those questions. If you're planning on traveling, call those areas too. In the real world, laws are only as strict as the police that enforce them. Example; here, I might drive down the highway at 120mph and have the highway patrol wave as they pass to stop someone else doing 56mph. There are areas known to me where everyone carries concealed (extremely illegal) and nobody's pestered by the cops because there's no crime there. Elsewhere, some poor slob may have a perfectly legal shotgun in the trunk, and he'll still get sent to jail. It all depends on the LEO you're dealing with. ... 7.62x39,,7.62x51,,7.62x54,,numbers you can have fun with! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 --- FMail/386 0.98 * Origin: -->point MUDGE bbs * V32b * Shelton, WA USA<-- (9:2500/0) Ä [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Ä Msg : 83 of 86 - 80 From : Don Litten 9:2400/1013 Sun 29 May 94 20:22 To : LANCE REICHERT Subj : Beginner's Gun Book ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ -=> Quoting LANCE REICHERT to ALL <=- LR> purchase of a 22 rimfire as a starting rifle or handgun, largely so LR> the novice can focus on safety and hitting the target without having LR> to contend with the distractions of excessive noise and recoil. Congratulations on your first buy LR> In consideration of today's political climate, is his recommendation LR> of a first gun still valid or is there something overriding his LR> reasoning? The answer depends on one big question...will this be your first gun or last gun or your only gun...for a first gun and a casual gun a 22 is great. In a pinch a 22 is also an effective defense tool, not my first choice, but I wouldn't feel ill at ease either. If it will be your only gun I would opt for a large bore revolver. This is mostly because it is more versitle...also try a few out and see what YOU feel comfortable. No subject has inspired more fights than what the perfect gun is. R> Rees said that there is at least one state in which it is legal to put LR> a loaded gun in plain view on the front seat in your car but where it LR> is illegal to carry it unloaded, disassembled, and inaccessible in the LR> trunk. Clearly, logic and common sense won't keep me out of trouble. LR> To where should the neophyte turn to get up to speed on national, LR> state, and local controls on the purchase (local and interstate & what LR> about interstate gifts?), use, and transport of firearms? I'll need a LR> concise, understandable summary, preferably all in one place with a A good index won't help . there are federal laws that were supposed to protect interstate travelers but are ignored for the most part...The best advice THAT I COULD GIVE YOU is: 1. keep it out of sight, a briefcase unlocked and open with the key in it is great...it's accessable but if your pulled close it and lock it and pocket the key before you stop, remember the cop is mostly concerned about being shot and you can't shoot him from a locked container. 2. Never tell anyone including the cop, that you have a gun. He may ask, lie. 3. never consent to a search, he may say something like " I can get a warrant if I have to" he can't without probable cause but more fools fall for that one than anything else. 4. be polite. 5. When anyone gives you advice keep an open mind, think about what they're saying and form YOUR OWN JUDGEMENTS...many a person has made a fool out of himself bu uttering the three words I've been told! Lastly enjoy the sport and don't worry too much about getting caught with it in the car, as a rule they don't look too hard if they don't have any reason to. LR> -!- SLMAIL v4.0 (#0386) LR> ! Origin: LIghthouse BBS Filebone Hub 319-366-1985 (9:2400/120) ... 0++++}===P=A=N=====> --- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR] * Origin: GRC BBS: Survival at it's finest! (9:2400/1013) Ä [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Ä Msg : 70 of 81 - 67 + 71 From : Don Waybright 9:2400/1013 Tue 31 May 94 22:11 To : LANCE REICHERT Subj : Beginner's Gun Book ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message LANCE REICHERT to ALL it was said: LR> It appears to be written at about my level. It strongly LR> encourages purchase of a 22 rimfire as a starting rifle or LR> handgun, largely so the novice can focus on safety and LR> hitting the target without having to contend with the LR> distractions of excessive noise and recoil. A .22 is a great rifle to start on. The ammo is very cheap and shooting pronciples are universal: Sight Alignment, Sight Picture, BRASS (Breath, Aim, Slowly Squeeze), etc... If you really wish to get a good start keep a shooting data book. In the USMC we use to have them on the range. You aim in, shoot, call the shot where you think it went and then go see. Note the wind and it's direction. Lighting and such. SOme will say this is a big overkill. But believe me it worked. I shott a 244 out of 250 in bootcamp and served 10 years in the corps. 9 of those 10 I qualified expert.... That last year in the Persian Gulf there was no KD Rifle Requal for obvious reasons. Anyway. The Ruger 10-22 is a great little bute and is really affordable. Though I have never owned on personally my brother and good friend both have one... I have gone out shooting the with everything from CBEE's to Stinger's and they are a great little gun... LR> and common sense won't keep me out of trouble. To where LR> should the neophyte turn to get up to speed on national, LR> state, and local controls on the purchase (local and LR> interstate & what about interstate gifts?), use, and The general rule of keeping the ammo out and away from the weapon is a good one. If you have a car and have the weapon in your trunk and unloaded I do not see where that would be a problem.... If you get pulled make sure you inform the officer... They will usually want to check it and see if it's loaded or not (At least that had been my expierence in: VA, NC, SC, GA, and FLA). Hope some of this is useful to you. Rds, -=Don=- ... Richmond's 1st Satellite Connection --- timEd-B11 * Origin: G.R.C. BBS <804-737-3932> (9:2400/1013) Ä [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Ä Msg : 71 of 81 - 70 + 78 From : Don Litten 9:2400/1012 Thu 02 Jun 94 12:38 To : LANCE REICHERT Subj : Beginner's Gun Book ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ LR> I'm not looking for advice on the perfect gun, just suggestions with LR> the reasoning behind it so I can make my own decision. I appreciate LR> your comments. My reasoning for the revolver, and I admit I've used one all my life, is,#1 that they are not pickey about loads, this may become very important if reloading and or ammunition supplies become regulated. an example...I use a 357 mag mostly...i shoot at least 250 rounds of wax bullets a week in my back yard ( i live in a subdivision)...I use buckshot and bullseye powder for squib loads when hunting small game...I use light loaded full wadcutters for target...I cast my own semi-wadcutters and swage my own jacketed bullets...if powder were no longer available I can make my own blackpowder..etc.etc.etc...an autoloader just will not function under these extremes...This 357 is an older Dan Wesson and I can change barrel lengths and styles to suit what I'm doing...the exception to the revolver rule is a 22...I have several autoloading 22's and wouldn't trade them for anything..another issue about revolver vs. auto is safety, I hate to bring this up because it's embarrassing...I had a partner several years ago who bought a Detonics 45...he took it along on an arrest we had to make in Maryland, because we had to cross state lines I told him that we had to lock the weapons up in the trunk...I locked mine up and he proceeded to shoot me in the hand, I don't think he would have with a revolver...we all like to think that we are Daniel Boone but the simple fact is a revolver is easier to handle safely than an auto. Where does one go to "try out" a variety of models Join a target range...a lot of the better ones have rental guns, There is at least one here in the Richmond area...If the range you belong to does not have rentals, I think you'll find that nearly all gun people are more than willing to let a newcomer try their gun out..good luck LR> -!- SLMAIL v4.0 (#0386) LR> ! Origin: LIghthouse BBS Filebone Hub 319-366-1985 (9:2400/120) ... 0++++}===P=A=N=====> --- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR] * Origin: Southside bbs (9:2400/1012) Ä [20] Survnet: SURVIVAL_ORIENTED TOPICS (9:2500/0) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SURVIVAL_ORIENTED Ä Msg : 80 of 82 - 78 From : Scott Scheibe 76:6020/1 Sun 05 Jun 94 00:32 To : Larry Gowdy Subj : Beginner's Gun Book ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ On 29 May 94, Larry Gowdy wrote to Lance Reichert: LG> don't know. I haven't shot many 22 pistols, but as a LG> comparison, the Ruger MkII 22 pistol is louder and has more of LG> a kick than the Ruger P89 9mm pistol (or at least it does for LG> me). Aside from target practise, 22 pistols don't have a lot LG> of other uses (self protection is questionable with such a LG> diminutive caliber). Guess my idea here would be just to make Compared to my Mark II the Glock 17 I have on loan from my boss to help me make up my mind about buying a Glock 23 kicks like a mule. I can shoot the Mark II all day long, after a few clips through the Glock 17 I am ready to call it quits. The Mark II is also quieter although it is loud because I use high velocity rounds. (Remington golden bullets, BTW I can get a brick around here for $10-$11) Same rounds in my 22 rifle are much quieter with the longer barrel length. I have a standard Mark II, I would suspect the bull barrel models kick less with their heaver weight. There was a good article on 22 LR as a self defense weapon in I believe Guns and Ammo late last year. I can't find the darn magazine now that I want it of course.. The gist of the article was the 22 LR is an ok defense weapon if you are accurate with it. The bullet has a tendency to wander around in the body causing multiple wounds to organs. They gave the case of the man who was killed after being shot in the hip the bullet deflected and went up through the torso and ended up in the heart. It is a given this is not usual. Although a 22 LR doesn't have the knock down one shot stoppability of a heaver caliber if accurately placed can be quite effective. The Israeli Massaud (SP?) extensively uses 22LR because it can be silenced easily and can be made light and compact. 22 LR is better than say a 25 any day. Scott Scheibe ... It's not so much the size of the bullet; it's how you place your shots. --- FMail 0.96â * Origin: Mike's Freedom's_Voice freq freedom 602-832-4479 (9:2400/310)