Art Bell Coast to Coast AM Radio Show
19 July 1996, 11pm-4am PT

Featured Guest:
Courtney Brown, PhD

Transcribed by PJ Gaenir, fire@zmatrix.com
This is also available from the Art Bell Web Page

For an audio tape of this show, contact:
Chancellor Broadcasting Company Tel: 541-664-88292
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This interview is also available via audio to the public without charge, in the Real Audio archives
on the Art Bell web page. See: http://www.artbell.com/ for more information.

Transcriber Notes: This transcription is verbatim. Some limitations based on web site Real Audio transfer and recording audibility are included. Efforts have been made to be accurate. Question marks indicate something which could not be deciphered (or in some cases, spelled).

[begin transcript]

ART BELL

• A few announcements, and then a real cosmic voyage ahead. Because tonight as promised, a tenured PhD professor at Emory University, Dr. Courtney Brown, heads a group of remote viewers at something called the Farsight Institute. And this is one of the most fascinating topics that one can imagine. So all the way from the home of the newly opened Olympic games in Atlanta Georgia, Dr. Brown will come... [discussion of other subjects]

ART BELL

• This morning's guest, Dr. Courtney Brown, professor Brown, also has a web page, and when you go to my web page this morning to get one of these crop circle pictures no doubt, and you want to know about Cosmic Voyage, about Remote Viewing, we have a linkup, as we usually do, due to the attentiveness of my webmaster, Keith Rowland. You will see that link, and you can jump over to the good Doctor's web page... [discussion of other subjects]

ART BELL

• All right, are you strapped in, are you ready? Courtney Brown, Doctor Brown, Professor Brown, P-H-D, is an Associate Professor of Political Science at Emory University in Atlanta, specializing in non-linear mathematical modeling of social phenomenon, environmental politics and elections. He held the Charles Grove Hanes's Professorship at UCLA and was a Hewlitt fellow at the Carter President Center. He is the author of several books including Serpents in the Sand, sounds interesting, Essays on the Non-linear Nature of Politics {chuckles}, and uh - I like that title - and Human Destiny and Chaos and Catastrophe Theories, both published in 1995. The good doctor heads a group of remote viewers at a place called the Farsight Institute, and one of their main targets, I understand, has been Mars, but let us begin at the beginning, uh Doctor welcome to the program, can you hear me?

DR BROWN

• I can hear you very well and Art, I wanna say thank you very much for having me on your show, it is truly a great honor.

ART BELL

• Well, it is a great honor to have you, and I can assure you that over the last weeks and months I have been inundated with faxes and email and so forth and so on forth saying, you have got to get Doctor Brown on! {Brown: ...kind words...} Alright, uh, I guess for our new listeners and we have many, uh, who have not, and don't understand and who have not heard what Remote Viewing is, it would be in order, I've got sort of a written description you sent me here but I'd like to have your words, Doctor, uh, for the uninitiated, what is remote viewing?

DR BROWN

• Well, remote viewing quite simply is a mental procedure. Now, it's a trainable mental procedure. It enables a person to extract accurate, descriptive information from distant locations. Now remote viewing it also works across time, in the sense that the remote viewer can actually extract information from the past, present or future. Totally transparent with regard to time, as if time doesn't exist, in fact we know now that that's not a metaphor, we know now that in reality, I'll talk about this as the hours go on but we know now that the actual fact is that time is a limitation of our perception, time is not a real thing.

ART BELL

• Isn't that time is our invention?

DR BROWN

• Well, uh, that's uh, that's what many people have recently been discovering, that uh, we may in fact in the broader view of things before our lives and after our lives be a species that in fact helped design our current situation and [?] in fact an invention, but I, think I perhaps I should touch upon that a little later on in the show with a little more background to it, the reality is time with remote viewing is not a hindrance at all, you can see anything past, present or future. Uh, Scientific Remote Viewing is the version of remote viewing that I'll be talking about tonight. It refers to -- sometimes it's called "SRV," Scientific Remote Viewing -- it refers to a set of protocols that are a modernized version of the original techniques that were used and developed by the U.S. military in the 1980's and 90's, totally for espionage purposes --

ART BELL

• Alright, I'll stop you there, and uh, those who don't know, Nightline, ABC's Nightline, did a full show on the military's revelations that they had been using remote viewers, remote viewing, doing remote viewing, in an ongoing project for what Doctor, 20 years, something like that?

DR BROWN

• Well actually they'd been using operationally uh, during that time the 80's was really when it was at its highest point, but the remote viewing studies, the scientific studies funded by the military had been going on for as long as, as long as 30 years. The military had been deeply involved in this for a, a long time for very very good reasons. First of all, it did just recently come out that the military was involved in all of this, but it was one of the most highly classified secrets held by our government basically since the Manhattan project --

ART BELL

• -- and I take it no doubt that the Russians were involved as well --

DR BROWN

• Well of course, there, you know during the cold war there was something on our side for everything that there was on their side, and vice versa, and they had their own psychic warfare espionage program, but they looked at it from a different angle from the way the United States did it. We approached it from the perspective of developing a set of procedures that could be trained so that you would not have to rely on natural psychics, and the Soviets went a different route, they developed a set of screening techniques that were used for sorting out the very best natural psychics in all of their territory. They in fact did develop a program that was very successful. The U.S. military's program had an operational success rate, uh, variously? reported but in general, uh, 85% of the data had to be correct 85% of the time. {Bell: Wow.} Now that was extremely high, that was nothing remotely similar to anything you get with a 1-900 number {Bell: laughs} and that type of thing, this was a very highly classified project --

ART BELL

• Well let me ask you this --

DR BROWN

• But the Soviets did it differently, they used natural psychics.

ART BELL

• -- and their success rate?

DR BROWN

• Eighty percent. But that means they got to be fairly close to the U.S. accuracy rate. But the Soviet Union came apart, as you know, and it should be noted that their technology for doing this, for setting up a team and getting the procedures set in place that organized the highly trained psychics to get this eight-five accuracy rate which was no small task, those procedures were sold to the highest bidders when the Soviet Union collapsed, and two countries bought them, and one of those is a perceived enemy of the United States, that we have bombed in the past, and so, you can be guaranteed, whether you hear about it in the news or not --

ART BELL

• Iraq?

DR BROWN

• Uh, actually, it's so sensitive, there are a couple of topics that I don't want to mention specifics {Bell: and we just [found?] one of them?}, but they are, they are countries that we have bombed, that have, that long memories, that have grudges, and remote viewing will be around for a long time, if for no other reason than for national security interests.

ART BELL

• Uh hmmmn. Um, what do you say to somebody who says baloney, new age, claptrap, what a bunch of silliness, uh, there's no uh, way to document the kind of success rates that people like yourself claim, I'm throwing the worst at you here {Brown: Sure.}, how do you respond to that?

DR BROWN

• Well this is a very common statement, uh, you must understand that it comes from a species that is genetically designed to be almost blind to the "other side" of life. In my book, Cosmic Voyage, quite literally as the subtitle says it is a scientific, scientific discovery of extraterrestrials visiting earth, but you must understand that much of the scientific community is hampered by the very fact that we are genetically set up, so to speak, to be so blind to that other side of life, I call that side of life, that's been called the spirit side or the soul side, I, I use a more generic term, um, which is, basically there's a whole realm of life that we've now discovered on that other side of life, the side where we came from, where the soul is, we are in fact part of it, I call it the sub-space side of life, and that has in fact caught on quite well because it describes a whole arena of existence and we are in fact composite beings, with a physical, you know, blood flesh and bone --

ART BELL

• Alright doctor let me ask you this -- [lack of clarity as Bell and Brown both talk]...

ART BELL

• ...with respect to this side, uh, of life, and I agree with you, that uh, but uh, what I'm not sure about is whether it's something we once had, and have become numb to in modern civilization, and has always been there, or whether it is something we are now refining, acquiring, using more of our brains, is it something new or something old that is just now new again...

DR BROWN

• It goes back to the beginning of existence. You see remote viewing is innate in every human, you don't have to be talented to do it, you have to be trained to do it, and it goes back, in fact the earliest remote viewers were the prophets, the ancient the seers, and some of them were pretty good {Bell: Nostradamus}, some of them were very excellent at being able to perceive things across time, across space, in fact many of our biblical stories are in fact fairly accurate remote viewing perceptions. Uh, in my book Cosmic Voyage, for example, I [?] -- there's a chapter on Adam and Eve. And that was a very interesting target to look at, because at first we thought that was just a biblical story --

ART BELL

• You looked at it?

DR BROWN

• Oh yeah, because it's a very important -- we found out a very important thing, because in fact, see the remote viewing done by the early, early seers, they didn't call it remote viewing of course but they just had people who were naturally inclined, they perceived something, but they put it within their own framework of understanding, and these ancient seers perceived in their own trance-like states that there was a, somehow couple involved in the early days of humanity, and that somehow there was a dispute, there was a war of some type, that there was some type of a betrayal, and that somehow Adam and Eve were somehow involved in the beginning, the Genesis of human life, as, as the early remote viewers the early seers knew it, so when we actually did the remote viewing for this, we found that in fact, the ancient prophets were pretty good, they got most of it right, what they didn't get is things that they could never understand within their culture, within their time, what they didn't get was that the couple, Adam and Eve, were project managers of a genetic and cultural uplift project [?...] --

ART BELL

• Holy mackeral!

DR BROWN

• -- they came here with ships, and there was in fact a sub-space, and physical dimensional war, and that the sides did in fact, did have to take sides -- [lack of clarity as Bell and Brown speak simultaneously]

ART BELL

• Doctor wait, uh, boy this is getting heavy fast, let me stop you -- again just for a second -- so that I understand and the audience understands, a practiced professional uh, uh remote viewer, how does he do it? -- do you in other words, go into a trance state -- hear my whole question -- I would like to know, and the audience I'm sure wants to know, it it like, are you looking through somebody else's eyes, are you physically having an out of body experience and looking at it with uh, with your own eyes, as though you would stand up in the room, in other words, I wanna know how you see, and what it is that you see...

DR BROWN

• OK. What these procedures are, very simply, when you're sitting down you're sitting down at your own desk, and the procedures for the remote viewing session, just the mechanical procedures themselves, take about an hour, with prep time of about half an hour, there's a lot, there's some analysis and other things that are done afterward, the total thing takes about three hours start to finish before you're out of there, but the actual procedures themselves start to finish take about an hour. Now, the remote viewing itself, what it is is the following: the best way I can tell you what the experience is like, when someone is remote viewing during that hour of intensive orientation, it's not an out of body experience, that's something different. It is not a trance experience either. What it is is a shifting of awareness, a shifting of perception, now basically, look at this, what are you looking at now, you don't have to answer, just in general, you're looking at your microphone?, your listeners may be looking at the steering wheel of their car, or they may be looking at something in their homes, whatever they're looking at, they're looking at something, whatever you're looking at, in your mind's eye, keep your eyes open, bring in the image of a pencil. Now with your eyes open, you're still looking at whatever at your look -- now you're also looking at this image of a pencil in your mind's eye, now note the [?] heart label, notice the #2 on the pencil, the metal band around the eraser, the pink eraser, the sharp point at the other end, notice that this pencil that you're seeing, even though your eyes are open and you're not physically looking at a pencil, you're nonethless seeing a pencil. And what we have found out is that -- this is from the neurologists that found this not, not the remote, they're neurologists -- have found out that inside the brain, there is a physical layer of cells that basically is in the frontal part and goes back of the brain, that the ocular image from your eye is projected onto, literally like a movie screen. And when you see the [?] heart label, the pencil and everything, the remembered image is taken from say, your hard drive of the memory, it's taken from your memory and projected on to that same screen. But notice that image of the pencil, notice it's a little transparent, it's a little {Bell: Right.} uh, translucent in the sense that you can see through it, not as bright an image as the stuff that's coming into your eyes, so the remembered image is dimmer than the actual ocular image. Now, the remote viewing image, you get all the other senses working with remote viewing as well, but the, the basic, the image is dimmer still than the remembered image, it's foggier, it's fuzzier, it's [?] -- what you're doing when you're remote viewing is you're shifting your awareness, even though your eyes are open, you're shifting your awareness, away from the physical ocular image {Bell: I understand.} away from the remembered images {Bell: I understand.}, onto this remote viewing image --

ART BELL

• I understand, Doctor, Doctor we've gotta pause right here... stay right there, Dr. Courtney Brown is my guest and we'll be right back...

[BREAK]

ART BELL

• And underway, a good, cogent explanation of what remote viewing really is. And for the first time, I'm beginning to grasp where we're going. My guest is Dr. Courtney Brown, Professor Brown from Emory University. He leads a team of remote viewers. You'd be well advised to listen closely, because maybe you too can take a cosmic voyage, I and suspect the answer is yes. [discussion of other subjects]

ART BELL

• All right here we go again, Doctor, welcome back to the program. I really am able to grasp so far where we have been, uh to look at an object in front of you, picture the pencil, uh which I can easily do, and that is as if it is from our hard drive, we have dredged this from our memory. But that is not remote viewing, is it?

DR BROWN

• No that's remembering an image from the past. And it's as if there are three different projectors in our own brain, and the three are, the projector that gets images from the eye, another projector with a lower luminosity, a dimmer bulb, that gets images from the memory, and then a third projector with the dimmest bulb, and probably the foggiest lens, and that is the one that gets things from what we call the sub-space side of ourselves. Now, I want to say something that's very important, that most of your listeners are gonna really wanna key in on this, you know there've been a lot of complaints over the decades, uh, about wasted military spending {Bell: Yes.}, about how our military's spent so much money for a hammer, so much money for a toilet seat or whatever, but I want to tell you that the military, the US Army, the Defense Intelligence Agency, not the CIA, the DIA, every branch of the government has its own spies, even the IRS has it's own spies, but the defense intelligence agency, the DIA, the Pentagon, invested over a couple decades, only 20 million at Stanford Research Institute, now called SRI International, 20 million dollars is pocket change as far as the Pentagon is concerned, and for only 20 million dollars they developed over a couple of decades these protocols of remote viewing and let me tell you that if you have no other reason for wanting these protocols around than this, listen here: what the scientists did at Stanford Research Institute, at SRI International, the most, one of the most prestigious defense scientific think tanks, laboratories on the planet earth, what they did is give the world absolute positive proof, certifiable positive proof, in laboratory conditions, of the existence of the human soul. Because you see, remote viewing is not possible in the absence of a soul, because you see don't physically go to any of these places but you can describe these things with _extraordinarily_ accuracy across time, space, anywhere on the planet and beyond, exact descriptions, down to the most incredible details {Bell: wait a minute.}, reliably consistent --

ART BELL

• Right, wait, wait just one second, that really is incredible, but how does it prove it - it - let me ask it this way -- you say it proves the existence of the human soul --

DR BROWN

• Because see, the soul has different physics, different physical characteristics, different aspects, than the human physical body, it extends beyond your physical body, we now know that when the physical body dies it sloughs off -- you are not dead, the personality does not go away, the part of you that is in fact doing the remote viewing is the essential self, and that continues on -- and what you must understand is that the remote viewing itself, when you're doing that, we call that other side of ourself, that is, human, the soul side, the "sub- space" aspect, and that, that is the component of yourself, the essential you that you're using when you're remote viewing, and it's that component that is projecting onto the physical brain, that foggier, fuzzier image --

ART BELL

• Got you {Brown: that you're using...} but I'm -- but I'm still not clear, in other words, suppose I were to say to you, what you're talking about, I firmly believe, uh, does exist, I believe you can do it, it can be done, people can be trained to do it, but: um, suppose I were to argue with you and say, it does not establish scientifically the existence of the soul, it establishes scientifically the ability of the brain to accomplish things that, that we have long forgotten --

DR BROWN

• Well you see, the, the brain is a electrochemical physical apparatus [Bell: right], under the normal laws of three plus one dimensional physics, it is not possible for anything electrochemical physical to do what it does with regard to remote viewing, there has to be another component, another aspect, completely un -- well, not yet completely understood by the science of today, and in scientific terms what you'd say is, there is a hypothesis. An hypothesis is a statement that you want to see if it works out. {Bell: Yes...} And the hypothesis is, if there is a soul that is fundamentally non-physical but exists as real as the head or the foot or anything else, if there is a soul which is fundamentally non- physical then it should be able to do things, such as know things, perceive things, that the physical body cannot do, and so you give it a test, you develop and use these remote viewing procedures and in fact you find out that you have to reject the null hypothesis which is that there is no soul, you have to accept the alternative hypothesis that there is, because you in fact are able to do that which the physical body cannot do.

ART BELL

• Well...

DR BROWN

• That's the nature of the hypothesis testing - if you're wondering about that, I have to say that that's what all of science is out there doing, they're doing these hypothesis, they say IF this exists, then you must be able to this do X, Y or Z with it -- and that's how we build our airplanes, that's how we build our skyscrapers, our bridges, all the realm of physics, all the realm of science is built up, built up on establishing hypothesis, and these hypothesis are what we use to fundamentally come up with what we call our laws. The laws of sub-space are in our, what you might call our state of Genesis, of understanding, we don't understand all of the physics of the soul, we don't understand all of the physics of the sub-space side of life, the spiritual side of life, but there is nothing in any spiritual text where God has forbidden us to ever investigate the physics of the spirituality, or the physics of consciousness, and we're just at that beginning, so part of your question I've answered Art, the rest of the question is to be answered not by myself, but to be answered by physicists, other scientists, as the decades go on, as we unravel every little small piece of this physics of the, of the soul. But we know at this point with absolute certifiable uh, factual understanding, that there is more to us than just a physical body because in fact remote viewing would be impossible without that other aspect of ourselves.

ART BELL

• Does remote viewing, uh, at any point establish, truly, the immortality of the soul itself?

DR BROWN

• Well, just the fact of being able to remote view does not do that. {Bell: Right. Right.} But having remote viewed both myself and re - and have, and you know we've had over thirty students at the farsight institute, that's F-A-R-S-I-G- H-T like seeing far, one word, and we've had over 30 students, and the military itself trained nineteen remote viewers. Having had these remote viewers operational, uh, we now know that in fact we've perceived all sorts of things, uh, that, uh, it's clear as could be that we do not die. It's not just the existence, ability to remote view and train it, it's the fact that we have, once gotten that existence, gotten that ability, trained ourselves, used it perceiv, before our own birth, after our death, we have perceived things that deeply go into the realm of the non-physical -- mind you, that everything that I've talked about with remote viewing as originally developed and in training, was always done with verifiable targets, physical hard targets {Bell: Understood.} that you can verify, so when you use these exact same procedures, you get extraordinarily accurate, great accuracy rates, on the more difficult targets, more esoteric targets, things with the realm of life after death and so on, we get very, very good, reliable types of information, using those same, those same procedures that are sufficiently accurate to risk men and women's lives on the battlefield for, you can then use those procedures to answer other questions {Bell: Yes...}, other more global --

ART BELL

• Alright, before we leave the nature of the soul, I wanna -- the soul, I wanna ask you about the nature of the soul, obviously you, uh, far sight, uh with regard to the nature of the soul, uh Doctor, do we come back, are we reincarnated, are --

DR BROWN

• We have, we have found that there is no police force out there that would stop a personality, a sub-space being, a soul, from coming back in physical life if he or she so wished. We have found that in fact many people have had, we have checked it out, we have remote viewed under totally blind conditions and I'll explain that later on in the show, under totally laboratory type conditions, we have found out that in fact, people have existed before, we have found out that they have existed in physical form many times -- you see, the physical body, we know, is just a vehicle, like your car, and after a certain number of years, it wears out and it drops off -- but the driver is still there. The driver, the personality, the sub-space being, you may call it the soul, is there before the physical body is turned on, and it's there after the physical body decays, and drops off. But we absolutely know that the body is just something we live within, we are occupying it, and the genetics of the body is absolutely spectacularly fascinating {Bell: It is!} because our genetics are so structured that, in our particular genetic mix, a lot of ET's we now know, do not have genetic mixes, genetic mixes like ours, our particular genetic mix makes us almost totally blind to the flavor of the soul, to the flavor, to the memory of who we were, who we are in fact, where we came from, in fact, uh, in ET circles we've found out that we are often referenced as a species, as -- and not derisively, not mockingly, but with admiration -- we are often called 'The Masters of Limitation' because we have collective, we have a set of genes that, that develop into bodies that make us almost blind to whatever came before, and whatever comes after, and we don't see past time, we don't see past our physical bodies, our physical experience, and that's because of the genetic structure we have, other ET's have different genetic mixes, and in fact, don't have those problems at all. Well you may say, 'Well that's a problem with us,' but --

ART BELL

• In fact, I would say, doesn't it mean we're more or less cosmic dummies?

DR BROWN

• Well, you could say that, but you see, but before we were physically born we knew everything, and after we die, we know everything once again, what would be the purpose of wanting to come into these very limited physical bodies? Well the purpose is, we now know from remote viewing, data that goes back a long time, we now know that what happens when you come into physical form like this, by forgetting everything that you've been before, you basically as far as you're concerned, have a hundred years, approximately, a little less, or more whatever, however long you live, to pack everything you possibly can imagine into that short period of time, every experience you can possibly think of, to make love one more time, to get another car, get another job, to go to the beach one more time, to get, to write one more book, to do one more thing, the point is you develop your personality more in one lifetime as a physical human because you run a race of time, for those few short years of your life you do everything --

ART BELL

• Otherwise we would be like cosmic welfare recipients sitting around not concerned about packing anything into this life at all --

DR BROWN

• We, we have found out that other -- in the sub-space side of life that you don't die, that there's no real pressure to develop, and development occurs more slowly {Bell: Fascinating.}, this is an acceleration school that we live in, and uh, in fact, I might mention that we have remote viewed a few other species, uh, and in fact when you remote view Adam and Eve, right now of course they're not dead, they're not dead anymore than when they were project ET genetic and cultural uplift managers in their project here, but when you remote view them, and it's an interesting flavor that uh is sometimes perceived, um, some of the remote viewers don't perceive much of a change in Adam and Eve when they were back here on Earth long ago and where they are now, and they have a different genetic mix, much more transparent across the sub-space divide, so they knew from the get-go that they were composite beings, two things put together, physical and sub-space, and um, even when I did the remote viewing on them I sort of said, boy someone needs to put a burr under their saddle, they've not done much in all these thousands of years, so that's what the advantages of being a human is, by cutting yourself off from the past for these short years, you put yourself through the juggernaut of trying to evolve quickly and when you're done, you know I must say that we have found out, this was done, uh, not only through remote viewing studies but also at the Monroe Institute in Faber Virginia, it's an institute developed by Robert Monroe, uh --

ART BELL

• I was honored to interview Robert Monroe before he died.

DR BROWN

• He's uh, a great being, and when uh, at the Monroe institute they had found out, uh, using different technologies but -- technology that has also been extensively used by the U.S. military -- that when people graduate from the human school, from the human experience, when they go on, and they finally? had enough, they are extremely well respected out there, uh, basically it's one of these situations, you find someone that no longer comes back into human form, uh, no longer needs to experience, goes on and does other, bigger better things, I mean infinity is a long time to be around, so they have to keep on doing things, but when other beings interact with someone who's graduated from the human experience, the word has it that they're incredibly impressed, but -- it's sort of like you bump into them and say "Wow, you're a very impressive person, where'd you come from?" and the person would say "Well, I'm just so&so, but I, um, I used to be human, but I don't do that anymore" and the other person would say, "A human! you mean, you, you graduated from the human [?], you mean you basically became self realized while you were human, you became, you became aware of who you were inside the human limited form?" and the person would say, "Yeah, that's what I did," and then the other person would say, "Well now wait a sec, this is like amazing, like, start in the beginning, we have to know everything like how'd you do this, so like, you were born? alright, so like, then what happened? -- " [lack of clarity as both Brown and Bell talk}....

ART BELL

• ...like a monkey can suddenly talk --

DR BROWN

• Yeah, it's a, it's a very, an impressive thing when someone graduates from the human experience, that's what we've, that's what Bob Monroe and their Institute found out extensively -- [lack of clarity as both Brown and Bell talk}....

ART BELL

• ...a fairly rare occurrence? {Brown: Pardon me?} Fairly rare occurrence?

DR BROWN

• It doesn't happen as much as it will happen in the future, because when you are in such a limited physical body, that is so cut off from who you were, who you are, uh, it really is tough to fight through it, and a lot of specialized procedures are often used to accelerate that process, remote viewing is one of them, uh, the Monroe Institute offers a variety of others, and in my book, Cosmic Voyage, I actually offer, I also talk about uh, other procedures, meditation procedures that are very compatible in a mechanical sense, non- belief-oriented sense, such as TM, the TM Siddhis program, which are oriented around literally just the concept of self realization. Understand self realization is simply one thing, it's a very simple thing. It something that a person while in physical form became experientially aware of their other side, the soul, the sub-space side, as much as they're aware of their hands and their feet -- [lack of clarity as both Brown and Bell talk}....

ART BELL

• ...it's like you're talking about a sort of a cosmic speed course --

DR BROWN

• That's what the human experience basically is.

ART BELL

• Yes indeed, but I'm, in terms of rising beyond or even approaching graduation, you're speeding these uh, souls, these, toward that uh, toward that end, and have you ever been concerned that you are indulging in unnatural, uh, process?

DR BROWN

• No, we're learning, and it's not unnatural at all because we're not doing anything that's unnatural, other than learning in the remote viewing sense, to shift the awareness to something that is already there, something that has already been there since the beginning of time, it's just a flavor of information, a sense of data that is coming across, that is mostly ignored except in those intuitive moments. For example: if a woman, with children, any mother will tell you that if something's wrong with her kids, I mean seriously wrong with one of her children, she'll know it {Bell: She'll know it. Yes.}, she'll, will have no ambiguity something's wrong, or something's wrong with a person's spouse, the other person often knows deep in their heart something's going on, and what that is is the sub-space side of life, the, the, the soul, the sub-space being, that aspect, is picking up remote viewing in a sense, and in a very crude way, bludgeoning through all the electrochemical apparatus that's genetically, that's genetically uh programmed, bludgeoning through that awareness, into the physical electrochemical brain, so that it comes through finally that's something's wrong, and we pick it up as an intuition. What remote viewing is, Scientific Remote Viewing, the version that we use here at the Farsight Institute, is a way of writing down those intuitions in a scientifically controlled fashion -- [lack of clarity as both Brown and Bell talk}....

ART BELL

• Discipline? Discipline would be a word wouldn't it, for that? In other words, a disciplined intuition.

DR BROWN

• That's a good way of writing, that's a good way of talking about it, uh you might also add to it a, a discipline with uh, a involved set of mechanical features. So it's not that you simply have to be disciplined like an Army Sergeant, but you're following a set of procedures. We know how the -- we've got the bugs worked out of these procedures, in fact, the procedures that we now use at the Farsight Institute, Scientific Remote Viewing, are much more evolved than the early military, uh, version -- everything changes as it proceeds, and I'm a scientist, more than anything else, which means --

ART BELL

• Right. Well the only thing I was concerned about with understanding of the nature of the soul, is that in essence you're taking, say a 12 year old prodigy and uh, graduating that 12 year old from college and thrusting that 12 year old out into the world from a soul point of view sort of, and, and that uh, some of your subjects are missing what they should have gone through, now think about that for a moment, we'll break here at the top of the hour, relax, we'll be right back, this is radio, we've got lots of time, Doctor Courtney Brown, Professor Brown, my guest, we'll be right back...

[BREAK]

ART BELL

• Good evening. Actually good morning for most of you across the nation, evening for Alaska and Hawaii yet. My guest is Professor Courtney Brown from Emory University, he leads a team of remote viewers. Remote viewing is a mental procedure that enables a person to extract accurate, descriptive information from distant locations. Remote viewing also works across time, in the sense that a remote viewer can extract information from the past, present or future. Scientific Remote Viewing refers to a set of protocols that are a modernized version of a technique developed and used by the U.S. Military in the 1980's and 90's for espionage. These protocols allow any normal, well balanced individual to remote view with tremendous precision. Scientific studies using multiple remote viewers employing these protocols can yield results that approach one hundred percent accuracy, consistently. Scientific remote viewing has several uh, distinct stages. Each one brings the remote viewer into closer contact with a target. A target is the location, person, or event about which information is desired. In each stage, different types of information are extracted about the target, and the overall result is typically a complete set of descriptive information, including sketches. In a moment, Professor Brown once again.

[BREAK]

ART BELL

• Alright back now to uh, Professor Brown, who happens to be in the city now opening the Olympics, Atlanta, uh, Doctor Brown you're back on the air. We talked about remote viewing, uh, the nature of the soul, uh, and the last question I recall asking is, are you certain that you are not, in effect, taking people who are supposed to go through more of these "limited life experiences" and graduating them early...

DR BROWN

• Well that's an extraordinarily important question. Two parts to the answer, both short. First of all, we are, are, we are aware now that most people don't have a few life experiences but many, many lifetimes, or life experiences, and uh, school is not bad, we all go to school, we shouldn't be superstitious about learning, opening one's eyes does not hurt us, but with that in mind, let me say that, I'm going gonna say now something that is my opinion, all things of course that I'm saying are something that is my opinion but in this particular thing I wanna emphasize that this is my opinion and that the military remote viewers, uh, as much as I love them all, they're, they've all had their moments of genius and their contribution to this entire field, every single one of them has been great, but in my opinion, the military remote viewers were not well served by the exact method of training and procedures that they went through, because they learned remote viewing in the absence of a broader course in the growth in consciousness, it started be - out as a parlor trick, it ended up as an espionage tool, but, you know before -- you know, in my years of exposure to these people, I have yet to find one that spoke to me in terms of them understanding what they were actually doing when they were remote viewing, that they were using their soul to extract the data - they, at least in conversations with me never put the two together and made an understanding that this has a soul, or a sub-space aspect connection, it was always a 'strange new power' --

ART BELL

• That actually makes sense, and I would expect that's the way the military would approach it, they wouldn't want to get into or even care about, and probably would shy away from, any discussion of what might seem to be of, uh, a religious nature --

DR BROWN

• Yes, but the result is, you know, we strip away religion from this discussion and just say, "If it could happen, it's in the realm of science," and what we have to say is, in my personal view that some of the military people were - - uh, well, were, were affected in a, in, in a way that was not uh, always the best, which is regard to the perception was, that I can do this now, it's an ability, I'm different from, better than, capable of doing something other people can't, and then, uh, you know, the normal process of uh, competition within them, egos growing and things like that, this is not, uh, a fault of a personality but, the process itself was not well explained to them, and it's partly the result simply of the fact that we were new and learning the procedures and understanding the ability in the beginning and these things were, were normal. But, as a consequence of my, of my personal interactions with these people that - I have restructured the training program completely at the Farsight Institute, not only have we modernized the actual Remote Viewing procedures, but we also imbed the training uh, with lectures, discussions, presentations for example, uh, with regard to other approaches to consciousness, so that we encourage people not just to learn how to remote view, with great accuracy, but to also pursue growth in consciousness that leads them in the direction of healthy self realization, in that regards, we have a very close and supportive relationship with the Monroe institute in Faber? Virginia, they use a different type of technology that is oriented toward self realization, and we also support the use of TM, Transcendental Meditation, and the TM Siddhis program, the advanced version of that, which is a mechanical approach we've found it to be very compatible with uh, Scientific Remote Viewing --

ART BELL

• If I may, let me stop you -- before we get away from the military aspect {Brown: Right.}, um, I know that you don't want to discuss other people, and I don't think we need to, but I did interview Major Ed Dames, who was involved in the military program, and uh, is now out, has formed a company called Psi-Tech, and um, what he said to me was very interesting, he said, when we were doing the military remote viewing, we were concentrating on very specific espionage- related military targets, it was very, very disciplined, and, but a funny thing happened along the way: we began to see some other things. For example, he said, we saw looking into the future, we saw babies dying. Now, we didn't pay attention to it, um, uh, we, it was seen, it was noted, and it was dismissed because it was not of interest to the military, and then he expanded on that after he left the military, and he has since gone back and uh, done more work in that area, but would you expect that would be true, that a lot of the military people saw things that they simply dismissed, they simply, um, erased, as part of the discipline {Brown: Mhmmn.}, to get the target they were after, yes?

DR BROWN

• Yeah - Well actually, um, the story that you just said is, is very interesting, and it uh, uh, literally every single one of the military remote viewers uh, has their special mark in history with regard to this whole thing, and, and the story that you just said is very interesting, because, that is exactly what occurred, many things were happening in the sessions when they were doing it, and things were being observed, that they didn't know how to - how to place - for example, they would for example be trying to locate [?], a terrorist, or they would be going after, uh, the location of Mohamar Khadafi, or they would be trying to do some type of operational, uh, thing with regard to Desert Storm, and in the process of doing all of this stuff, some of the remote viewers, many of the remote viewers, most perhaps -- and uh -- although I do not, uh, I myself was not in the unit, I was not in the military, uh, so, uh, don't, I didn't have personal contact with every one of them, but perhaps all of the remote viewers, did notice things sort of over their sub-space shoulder, over their remote viewing shoulder, light beings, uh, other things happening, things that were happening on the sub-space side of life, and in fact, they were not capable of dealing with that information, so they dismissed it --

ART BELL

• The military, the military didn't _want_ them to deal with it --

DR BROWN

• They didn't want them -- they didn't know _how_ to deal with it, it -- remote viewing itself didn't fit into the normal accepted paradigms, uh, and certainly the stuff that they were getting didn't fit into the normal accepted paradigms, and one of the things that has happened with Scientific Remote Viewing, is that we have changed, at the Farsight Institute we have changed some of the procedures, most of the language, making it more easy to teach, making it simpler, but in the same sense we've expanded the procedures, and, we've expanded the types of information that we get so we explicity in our sessions now have places for, and recording, uh we explicitly have procedures for recording the things that were dismissed by the early remote viewers, all of the sub- space activity for example, we have explicit places for that information to be recorded, we don't dismiss it any more, I might say just as a vignette on that interesting topic that you raised, is that there was a -- I, I don't really want to talk about uh, personalities, but there's one personality I will mention. There was a brilliant general, two star major general, Albert Stubblebine, who uh, was in charge of the, oh, area under which the remote viewing unit was assigned {Bell: Okay.} in INSCOM, and uh, the, the problem with General Stubblebine from a job perspective, was that he was doing his job, perhaps a little bit too well --

ART BELL

• Meaning what?

DR BROWN

• I have been in -- pardon me? Well in the sense that he ran into a lot of problems within the military when his remote viewing teams began to come up with data, results, and he as the good General started to report it, and some of the data dealt with some of this information that was being discarded, that was being not used, uh, no place for it, not within the right paradigm, and some of the military higher-ups, uh, looked at General Stubblebine with uh, not, not complete favor, and he ran into some, some professional problems, really due to no fault of himself, uh, the information he was carrying was a little bit too different for a lot of those people, and so, uh, you know, within any institution there are types of information that are accepted within that institution, that's not just the military but any institution, and some of the remote viewing data absolutely stretched the military's levels to it's very edges --

ART BELL

• I bet it did -- I mean, if you were trying to figure out where Saddham Hussein was, and you had a team concentrating on that, and somebody came and talked to you about Adam & Eve --

DR BROWN

• -- yeah, or while you were remote viewing Saddham Hussein you saw a light being over your shoulder, they'd think you were nuts.

ART BELL

• That's right.

DR BROWN

• Uh, but the reality is, life is more complicated than we thought, with our simple, narrow, limited three dimensional plus one 1 time expectations.

ART BELL

• Believe me, military careers can slow to a crawl over things like that.

DR BROWN

• Yeah, and, and General Stubblebine was one of those people who took a little bit of flak, and there was, you know, all of these people, every one of them, had their great moments in the history of this development.

ART BELL

• Um, well that would be true, and probably suffered greatly for it, like most uh, founding groups or fathers.

DR BROWN

• Well stated.

ART BELL

• Um, so now you've got a private organization -- Farsight Institute is private, is it?

DR BROWN

• Right, what we, what I did was, I had, when I wrote Cosmic Voyage, a Scientific Discovery of Extraterrestrials Visiting Earth, that's, that's under the [?] label, it's a Penguin Book, uh, when I wrote that, uh, I was originally going to treat this just as any other book, the only difference between my use of Remote Viewing and the miliitary's was that instead of looking for terrorists or bombing targets or whatever, I used those same procedures, but aimed them up, towards the extraterrestrials, the ETs, the UFO phenomenon, the enigma, and I focused just basically on that. But, when I did it, I had the expectation, as controversial this book would be, and I knew it, I had the expectation I had to walk away from it, start my next book, right after that, just like all academics do, we write one book, we finish it, we go onto our next project. But at the very last stages of, uh, right before the book went into production, it had gone through all of its editorial stuff, it had gone through everything, I had a conference call with, uh, my editor, and uh, the lawyers, the best legal minds available in New York on literary matters {Bell: I'll bet.} and uh, they're the lawyers of Penguin, and there's the conference call. And they said, "Doctor Brown, we have one last thing: you have described to us your procedure, what you went through to get training from some of these military guys. Well, there aren't many of them out there, and uh, you know, what you had to go through, was something that may be difficult for a lot of people, to go through," in terms of finding them and getting things going at least at the time, that I was doing this, it was very difficult for me to get the training, but I finally got it, and, uh, and they said, "and the people that are available for training don't do it the way you would suggest it to be done," now, the whole thing about Science is replicability, that's the fundamental characteristic of science, is you've got something going on the laboratory, you've gotta be able to replicate it --

ART BELL

• Absolutely.

DR BROWN

• -- under the exact type of conditions. So they say, "Uh, Doctor Brown, uh, we need an institute, there's got to be an institute for doing this stuff the way you think it should be done, uh, that's the whole clai], I mean, we're gonna put ourselves, this is a major press, Penguin, we're gonna put ourselves on the line and push this book, uh, and uh, don't you think we need an institute?" and that was the lawyers saying this, and then I said, "Well an institute, but I don't have an institute {Bell: laughs}, I just do my research and I go onto my next book," and then there was this, uh, long, pregnant pause, and my editor chimes in and says, "Boy we'd sure like to sign off on this book today, Dr. Brown," and I said, "Oh. Is that it?" So the implication was that if I didn't [?] an institute [?...] there'd be -- so I basically just squeaked out, "Ok, I'll do it," but, you know, I realized what that would mean, that would mean hiring secretaries, I'm just talking about organization -- but I did it, and uh, I'm glad it actually happened that way, so we now have an institute, a regular, full-fledged academic institute where we teach people, anyone who is interested, from scientists to reporters to just plain interested people, uh, how to do the most modernized form of the originally military derived, uh, remote viewing protocols, and we have regular classes, we've had a variety of classes, we've trained so far 31 remote viewers, and I must say, that 28 of these remote viewers have given us written permission to post their results up, or parts of their results up, the results that are uh, understandable and can be presented easily on the Internet, uh, uh, to post these results up on the Internet, and, to date I've got, uh, we've got 11 results, partial results, uh, posted up on the Internet, so people that go to your web page, and then snap over to uh the Farsight Institute web page, you might -- you mentioned my web page -- uh, people that go over to my web page, they can go to a section called the Student's Corner, and they can see 11 results, and all done under totally blind conditions, which is what we use at the Farsight Institute - Uh, Art - I hope you ask me one time what that actually means, 'cause that's very important, your viewers are gonna wanna know, what does this, how do we know this really works, to know that you have to know what blind conditions is all about --

ART BELL

• Doctor, you have Viewers, I have listeners.

DR BROWN

• Okay. {Bell: laughs} I'll, I'll do it then. What blind conditions is, that the Farsight Institute only uses blind conditions. Now what that means is, now get this: we have a target that we want to send someone to, to perceive, to accurately describe in minute detail, say, the great wall of China, or the Eiffel tower, or the assassination of J.F. Kennedy, anything that you can think of, we can go to. And we have, uh, that target, but we don't wanna tell the viewer what the target is.

ART BELL

• You don't?

DR BROWN

• No. Because then the viewer's mind, the conscious mind, is gonna be all activated and everything in memory is gonna start flooding out, and they'll start saying, oh, I remember what this is, and so, it'll be more difficult for the remote viewer. So what we want to do is to give them the identification of the target without telling them what the target is. So what we use is two four-digit random numbers. The reason is, these numbers come from a random number table, or from a computer program that we use --

ART BELL

• Alright doctor, we must, uh, this is network, and we must break here --

DR BROWN

• I'll describe it right after the break.

ART BELL

• That's good -- stay right there. Professor Courtney Brown, author of Cosmic Voyage, is my guest, Remote Viewing the topic, we'll be right back.

[BREAK]

ART BELL

• My guest is Doctor Courtney Brown, a tenured PhD professor at Emory University. He runs the Farsight Institute, a group of remote viewers. It is a fascinating topic. And we're gonna get back to it in just a moment.

[BREAK]

ART BELL

• All right, now back to Professor Brown. Professor, if you had not been a tenured uh, PhD, um, at Emory, after Cosmic Voyage was published, would they have blown you out of there like a bad dream?

DR BROWN

• Well that possibly could have happened, but you know, uh, to give a good story about this, John Mack, a tenured professor of Psychiatry at Harvard, Pulitzer Prize winning author, founder of the department of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, when he came out a couple years back, year and a half ago actually, about two years back, with uh, uh, uh, his book "Abduction," which was about the uh, basically one species of G- of ETs called Greys -- fascinating book, when he came out with that, uh Harvard went through an academic inquisition no less, and that's unheard of these times, where basically they dragged him through approximately forty closed-door hearings, lawyers-only type things, where they were trying basically uh, no-holds-barred to get him removed {Bell: Right.}, now --

ART BELL

• M-Hmmn. Actually it was a very close call.

DR BROWN

• It was a very close call, and after a year and a half of uh, closed door meetings and really, nip and tuck as far as John Mack was concerned, Pulitzer Prize winning author or not, he almost lost his job, and what finally happened after a year and a half, the dean finally put closure on it, and said ah, I guess this is an academic freedom issue, and, uh, you know uh, just closed the -- closed the door on it, said this is it, let's not hear any more about this, John Mack can do whatever he wants, but by doing that, John Mack actually set out a principle for all universities {Bell: Ah.}, because by doing that, he forced Harvard to make a statement saying that people studying these high, advanced level subjects of consciousness and extraterrestrials, ETS, UFOs, that this is legitimate within the range of scientific inquiry. By forcing Harvard to do it, he saved uh, the careers of an awful lot of other scientists, because no other university's gonna do something that, that uh, Harvard finally at long last decided not to do. Now understand Harvard is, is not known for its innovation. Harvard basically hires people that are, that have done their creative work uh, and you know, they, they are, really, often their creative work has been done elsewhere, and then Harvard hires them, you know, after they become you know very big --

ART BELL

• Very conservative.

DR BROWN

• And in that sense Harvard is very conservative, not the, the bastion of innovation and creativity as much as they are the defense of the orthodoxy, and they have a prestige to defend, and you know the harder, the higher they come, the taller, the harder they fall, [inaudible] --

ART BELL

• What about Emory? Have you run into any --

DR BROWN

• I've run into no problems with Emory, I don't know how much of it is because of Emory's long standing commitment to academic freedom, which really is there, or, and how much of it is due to the fact that uh, my book came out after, right after John Mack forced Harvard to make that decision [inaudible] --

ART BELL

• Alright, let us return now to remote viewing. You were telling us that in order to insure that there's not a lot of false information flying about in the brains of these uh, viewers, they are assigned targets by numbers. Now I can't understand that, how would a series so -- so make me understand --

DR BROWN

• OK that's fine. So this is what's called blind conditions. What we have is, we have a target, the Great Wall of China, the Eiffel Tower, the assassination of JFK, [?] whatever, and that's our target, that's what we wanna get information about. Now we don't tell the remote viewer that this is what the target is. What we do is, we say well let's go to the computer program or to a table of random numbers and get two four-digit random numbers. Why two four-digit? Well it goes back to the old military days, it's a tradition, where they thought coordinates were needed, geographical coordinates, latitude and longitude, so that's a leftover from those days when we have two four-digit random numbers, but they're totally random, they mean nothing to the conscious mind. And on a piece of paper, right next to whatever the target may be, uh, uh, say, say you know, Nagasaki destruction event, we put down uh, those two four-digit random numbers. Now. We then go over to the remote viewer, and we say, here is the target, and we tell the remote viewer those two four-digit random numbers, say, 7275 5131.

ART BELL

• There is your target --

DR BROWN

• And the remote viewer writes those two four-digit random numbers down. Now. That's _all_ the remote viewer is given about the target. Now. The physical conscious mind, the electrochemical brain has no way of knowing what those numbers mean {Bell: For sure.}, that, that, that they mean the destruction of Nagasaki or Martians, [?] {Bell: I understand.}, ETs, Greys, President Clinton in the Oval office, [?] St. Louis, whatever it may be -- has no knowledge of what those numbers mean. But: the sub-space component of the, of the remote viewer, you might call it the soul, or some people call it the unconscious, we have found that the vast other part of ourselves, the essential being of ourselves, has instant awareness of all things, including what those numbers represent. And what we do is we send the remote viewer through this set of procedures, mechanical procedures, on those numbers, beginning with those numbers, and the information that comes across through the soul, through the sub-space aspect, projected onto the brain, dimmer, foggier, fuzzier, but nonethless the remote, the remote viewers are trained to recognize it and to write it down, that information is written down, and what we do at the end of the end of the session is we have a complete description of what that target is, and the remote viewer was never told what the target was, and then at the end of the session after all the information is down on the piece of paper, in indelible ink, can't be erased, after all the information is down we then, the remote viewer says "whew! That's over. What was that?" and we tell them, that was uh --

ART BELL

• OK now let's get to the scientific repeatability aspect of it: can you take Remote Viewer A, and assign them, uh, Target A in, in one room, and Remote Viewer B, C, D and E, uh in separate rooms, and assigning them the same target, and establish roughly the same report?

DR BROWN

• That's exactly what we do! Except, we don't do it with two. At the Farsight Institute we typically do it with eight students at a time, all separated, so they can't see each other working, they're all separated physically with barriers, but the point is, we teach them the procedures, and then we give a target, and then all eight work on the target {Bell: Right.} in silence, all separated, they can't see each other, and then at the end of the session, when we say put your pen down, put your pens down, we then collect everybody's session up, and then one at a time we put them on the table and everybody looks at everybody else's session. You can often hear a pin drop when they look and they say -- you know, you can always discard your own work, they say - you say, ah I must have done that by chance, how could I have done that, but when you see eight other people in the same room coming up with the same information, it's just awe inspiring.

ART BELL

• Alright, give me the numbers. Uh, with regard to your research so far, what percentage of accuracy can you repeatably demonstrate?

DR BROWN

• Well, it, it, it varies as you get better at it, so when you first start it, but, but, I should say this, to start with, we have not had a single person in our institute, of 32 that have come through, that have not been able to learn it, and have not been able to do it, every single one has -- can do it. We know how to work this now, we've got all the bugs worked out of this. Secondly, information at the end of training is as good as the military people _ever_ were. But: the requirement is that the people at the end of training have a professional monitor, someone to remind them of which procedure comes next, there to make sure that no mistakes are made. After the initial week, intensive training that we give, we have another course, called Farsight Seer, which is the uh, professionalization course, where even that limitation is removed because they become monitors themselves, they become, they become experts, they become professionals, and then we even have a teacher training course, and we're actively teaching, we're actively developing a large uh teach -- group of teachers -- so the point is that a professional, someone who's gone through the introductory course as well as the professionalization course {Bell: Yes.}, those people -- and if we do, everything that we suggest especially, and don't do anything wrong, we do not have a _single_ unexplained missing of the target. In the sense that, as long as nothing was physically done wrong, like a blunder as might be done in say the introductory parts of training, as long as there's no physical blunder, uh, no gross mistakes, in the execution of procedures, uh which is very rare among professionals, we don't have a single case of anyone completely missing the target. We know how this thing works.

ART BELL

• So you're saying repeatably --

DR BROWN

• Replicability is the bottom line.

ART BELL

• A hundred percent of the time?

DR BROWN

• Well, what we're saying is the following: like when you ride a bicycle, you fall down in the beginning. So do you say, well is the bicycle gonna be stable 100% of the time, well in the beginning, you fall down, but you know, look at the olympic bicyclists, it's a very rare damned -- it's a very rare moon whenever they fall down off a bicycle, you know they're good at it -- so the point is, when people do everything that we say [?], that, that we tell them to do -- you know it may be in the future that we'll find out that you know, certain percentages of the targets don't work very well, but the reality is, when people become professional using this stuff, we - and they don't make - and there's no gross mistakes being made in the procedures - uh, we don't have a single case yet where people have completely gone off target. {Bell: That's quite a claim.} So we really understand this, and, I must say that I am a scientist, and all science evolves, so that what we know now is an improvement over what was going on in the original military program, and what will go on in ten years and in twenty years will be an improvement on what we do now. So, science is constantly evolving. There is no original perfect set of procedures that [good?] for the rest of time, everything evolves, and that's why we look at the - at the Farsight Institute as a real academic institute where research is going on, where we constantly innovate and do things -- by the way I should also mention, that we have a medical course that we anticipate to offer in the beginning of 1997, and uh, the procedures are being used, very accurately and productively in hospital settings today. And uh, you know, you never do it if somebody has broken a leg, if it's a broken leg you just fix it --

ART BELL

• Diagnostics?

DR BROWN

• But, but for very complicated diagnostics where you don't have the foggiest reasons, idea of what to do next, doctors can use it, and actually come up with very, very important information about what's wrong with people.

ART BELL

• Really remarkable, alright, let me take you in a sort of a side direction for just one moment. {Brown: OK, sure.} Having established what you can do scientifically, and I think you have established that, um, let me ask you about ethics a little bit. Um, if I were not an ethical person, and I came to you and I came, and I went through your course, and I went all the way through your course and became _very_ good at what I do, could I not, uh, with my talents, attain great power, great riches, great everything -- in other words use this, um, ability, for personal gain -- must I be ethical with it, or uh, is the very process itself driven uh, to do, to an ethical boundary, or stays within an ethical boundary, you see what I'm trying to ask, I'm sure --

DR BROWN

• We, we, the point is that we truly live in a free will universe, and the remote viewing procedures are mechanical, they are not belief oriented, so anything is possible, including what you just suggested -- with that said, however, I want to state that at the Farsight Institute we take particular efforts, very great efforts to explain remote viewing in the realm of larger growth of consciousness. For example, we now know that it is literally the sub-space component of all of us, the sub-space side of us, of our composite nature, two things put together, our soul, that actually does the perception. And if you look back at it, what did the military use it for? -- now this is not a criticism, this is just, this was their business and they had to do it this way, but what did they do it for --

ART BELL

• Wait doctor, the same sort of thing that I'm gonna ask you about right now, bringing you back down to ground level. I go through your course. I go to work for some microchip company. {Brown: Right.} I say look guys, how would you like to have the latest research, two or three years ahead of what you're doing, going on in Tokyo right now -- I can give it to you, I can give it to you, $500,000, a million dollars, whatever it is, I can give you this technology.

DR BROWN

• That's already going on. Uh, there is a, a remote viewer that um, uh, a military remote viewer, Joe McMoneagle, who's out at the -- who can be -- he often shows up in classes at the Monroe Institute in Faber Virginia -- uh, he's a natural psychic, he's not trained, he's a natural psychic and he has an accuracy rate of about 80% -- but uh, he works for contract for private companies all the time, and there are, there are a significant number of patents out there where people hire him, and some other remote viewers, for technology transfer, but most of all from off planet and from the future. And uh, patents are, people are making money on patents with regard to this stuff -- there's another professor, such as myself, but this is a full professor at a very prestigious, uh, one of the most prestigious engineering universities, colleges in the country, that is uh, getting patent after patent after patent using a remote viewer, and he has actually tried to show some of his colleagues how they're getting the information, but the colleagues just don't wanna listen, they just say, just take your patent, I don't wanna know how you get it, but you know, the point is that, he with the remote viewer has found, has, has found uh, an ET, an ET library, believe it or not, a, a library, and uh, they're -- works on the level of consciousness and they're just tapping into it -- [lack of clarity as Brown and Bell both talk]...

ART BELL

• ...again, the ethics, now, if I go to a company and I say, look guys, I can steal the latest for you, the key word there is steal, theft, it is theft, if you're able to remote view somebody else's technology then assume it for your own, that, Doctor, is theft.

DR BROWN

• Yeah -- well you understand that this level of secrecy that you're talking about being broken only exists within the limitations of our genetic makeup. Once you break that, there are no secrets anymore. I'll give you an example --

ART BELL

• At that plane, yes, but here on earth Doctor, that is theft.

DR BROWN

• No, on earth now, we've broken it now, on earth, in the physical level, we're no longer limited by this anymore, we can remote view anything. So all those secrets are no longer secrets --

ART BELL

• No more secrets.

DR BROWN

• Let me give you an example. In my book, Cosmic Voyage, there's a chapter, I was monitored by a former retired high ranking member of the military uh, during the entire process of writing this book, uh of doing the research, and this monitor sent me, under completely blind conditions, into the white house, into the oval office --

ART BELL

• Oh really...?!

DR BROWN

• And I described that session. And it took 25 minutes for me to go through the procedures, and finally I said to the monitor, uh, I'm sorry, but the only thing I'm getting is that I'm in a room, it's round, and I'm standing in front of the president, President Clinton is here, what am I supposed to do now? And at that point the, the monitor ended the session, as that indeed was the target, and he told me afterwards that's the target, that's end of session, took 25 minutes, and then the monitor says, yeah we could have done some interesting things, I could have sent you into the mind of the president, but you know, being former military types we still have some respect for the commander in chief {laughs}. But the reality is, he could have sent me right into the mind of the president to extract any information that was necessary.

ART BELL

• Seems to me Doctor, if you can really do that, you could be killed for that.

DR BROWN

• Well, no, it's not because of me you see, we're teaching people how to do this now -- [lack of clarity as Brown and Bell both talk]...

ART BELL

• You could be killed for that.

DR BROWN

• Well I have a respect for our president as well, so I don't do things like that.

ART BELL

• But maybe not all your students will.

DR BROWN

• Well actually, to be quite honest, we do teach them how to enter the minds of people in training, that's part of the training process, it's {Bell: Really.} called a deep mind probe, and I just had a student the other day --

ART BELL

• No fourth amendment problems here eh?

DR BROWN

• Well, we have to understand science is changing and, and, you know you could have said, uh, in the old days, you could have said, well when technology changes does the rest of the world has to stop, but we now know that when technology changes, and remote viewing is a technology now, uh, our physical realm has to adapt, and --

ART BELL

• Alright now, hold it there, we're gonna break, and we need one after all that, we'll be right back, Doctor Courtney Brown is my guest, don't move...

[BREAK]

ART BELL

• My guest is Professor Courtney Brown. He is a tenured PhD professor at Emory University. He has written a book called... isn't that terrible? {laughs} It's cosmic -- is it Cosmic Journey? Cosmic Voyage? It is... a Cosmic trip, that's for sure. And what we have done, in the last uh, in the last two hours, is to establish the scientific validity of remote viewing, the ability to look, uh, at a distant geographic location, the ability to look at a distant person or object, the ability to enter their mind, the ability to read into the future -- see, literally, into the future or the past -- and without uh, without going through all of uh, the discussion of the past two hours I will tell you, if you have been listening, you should be, by now convinced, of the scientific uh, reality and viability of remote viewing. We have not yet talked about some of the targets that uh, Doctor Brown uh, has viewed. That part is coming up. I could not have done that, ladies and gentlemen, in my view, uh, without having established the base, the scientific um, repeatable base of proof for the existence of remote viewing. Having done that, and I think, having done that, we will indeed begin to ask about specific targets shortly.

[BREAK]

ART BELL

• Doctor Courtney told us that under scientific conditions it is possible to take eight trained remote viewers -- I said eight, in separate rooms, assigning them a target, not one that they know of, but a number that relates to a target, or more specifically actually does not, and the eight remote viewers will uh, go to their target, report the information, uh, then uh, these eight will be gathered together, the notes, the information on the target will be identical, it can be done with trained pros to the point where it is or can achieve near 100% accuracy. That's scientific, it's repeatable, and I guess it's real, and it's kind of, it's kind of frightening, isn't it doctor, uh, for the uninitiated --

DR BROWN

• Well, for the uninitiated it, it, it could be a little bit new, and all new things are a little bit surprising, uh, but but I wanna say just to help clarify something, that the results necessarily are not, are not necessarily identical across remote viewers, and that is because the, the personality of each remote viewer is involved in what they particularly go for.

ART BELL

• But isn't the goal to suppress as much of that, uh --

DR BROWN

• That's right, but let me explain: Every remote viewer goes to the site and gets aspects of the site that are clearly, clearly, unambiguously related to that site. But not every remote viewer goes to the same aspects of the site. For example, if you're to target the, uh, the blowing up of the 747 that happened couple days ago, then, and you're to send eight remote viewers there and figure it out, what's going on, uh you may write the target in such a way that all eight remote viewers, they'll all get an explosion, they'll all get people dying, lives, people falling out of the sky, they'll all get a jetliner blowing up or something like that, some aerial explosion, but some of them may, if this thing was a missile for example that blew it up, uh some of them may give you much more detail about the missile whereas others won't even have any detail about the missile. Uh if it was a bomb inside the airliner, some of the remote viewers might actually pick up uh, how the bomb was actually placed in the, in the jetliner, where as other remote viewers wouldn't, wouldn't have gotten that particular information. {Bell: Alright, so that's clear.} So, so the personality of each remote viewer gets different aspects (Bell: That's clear.), so that it's not that we're all carbon copies, also when we do things at the Farsight Institute, we sometimes put people in separate rooms, but other, but we also have uh, training where all eight people are in the same room, but it's a very large room and they're all separated by barriers, so they can't see each other, so uh, but nonetheless your description is correct in the sense that right after that they are separated from each other, and right after that they come together and uh, review everybody's work. It's really quite a moving experience for everyone when they first start seeing that.

ART BELL

• I brought up the subject of the effects of it, and somebody sent me a fax here that says, "Knowledge can't be owned. It's not theft. It's merely the universal database and access to it."

DR BROWN

• In fact, getting into some of our targets, uh, ET related targets, we have to understand that the big difference between us humans and advanced ETs is, as a rule, technologically as well as experientially, they are self- realized, the ETs, they have complete understanding of the composite physical and [inaudible] --

ART BELL

• Are you sure they are --

DR BROWN

• They have no secrets.

ART BELL

• Are you sure they are -- well there are no, in your world there are, there are no secrets in it, there are no longer any secrets, that's a frightening prospect. Um, are you sure they are ETs? I know many have seen beings of light. Different beings. Uh, how can you be sure these are really extraterrestrials in the very purest form of the meaning, they are living on or have been on other planets in other systems?

DR BROWN

• Good question. Art, there's no ambiguity about this. With the exact same procedures that are used to put men and women's lives at stake on the battlefield -- and the military had a minimum eighty-five percent accuracy, eighty-five percent of the time -- that was better by the way than some of their normal spy stuff, 'cause you know, when you get physical spies out there, a lot of the physical spies are given disinformation {Bell: Yes.}, not everything you get is correct, so the remote viewing data was very competitive, often superior, than the information they got from their regular ordinary spies. So, with that same level of accuracy, and above, uh, we've used this same procedures to target the extraterrestrials, and one thing I want to tell you and you do not have to believe me, science is not a matter of belief, it's a matter of replicability under controlled scientific laboratory conditions, and, we do not have just me as a remote viewer doing this. Uh, besides the military folks, the former military folks, uh, we have thirty one, thirty two remote viewers, thirty two remote viewers at the Farsight Institute who have become very proficient at, at uh, at uh, getting information from physical targets that are just normal, Eiffel Tower, whatever, uh, using the same procedures on ET related targets, and getting very, very accurate results in the sense of compatability. Meaning, if someone goes to Mars and is supposed to be looking at something life-oriented around Mars or on Mars, you get all the same people describing the same thing, uh, using the exact same procedures. Now if the procedures didn't work, we'd have no business committing men and women's lives on the fields for this. {Bell: That's right.} Uh, the procedures do work -- [inaudible]

ART BELL

• OK here's a hard question, a hard question for you, on the subject: it is my understanding that the military is now, or claims, that they have ended their remote viewing project, correct?

DR BROWN

• That is correct.

ART BELL

• If it's so damn effective, then why have they done that? If it's better than human assets on the ground in many cases, with regard to intelligence matters, why in the world would they end the project? Or is the answer, they really have just ended the public, uh knowledge --

DR BROWN

• That last part is [inaudible] -- there is, there is still an operational capability within the military. There are people still in uniform who are remote viewers, and one in fact that is a very high ranking military officer. With that said, I must say that there are three different reasons for the, for the elimination of the actual unit.

ART BELL

• Let's hear 'em.

DR BROWN

• The first is, that the Generals themselves have their own traditional belief systems that the remote viewing stuff really goes right against. They're like anybody else.

ART BELL

• Religious... ?

DR BROWN

• All types of traditional belief systems {Bell: Alright. I can buy that.} religious and stuff like that, and when you start bringing in remote viewing stuff, you start challenging basically _all_ belief systems, because you're bringing in vastly new information. {Bell: OK. I can buy that.} And so some of the Generals have a difficult time with that. The second reason for it is that politically, remote viewing is not easy to do, to, to, to, accept on the political popularity reasons. What, what is the problem is that the, that the, the American government {Bell: In other words, getting money for it?}, might not want a scandal. They do not want people saying, oh this is another way of throwing money down the drain and the military's investing in psychics, and {Bell: Yes, OK...} the government wants to avoid things like that, because it takes too much time to explain it. You're having me on for over two hours {Bell: Right...}, people are basically just now getting it right, but in the normal news, you've got a ten second, thirty second sound bite at most {Bell: That's right.}, and it's just too difficult to explain, and the government says, I just can't explain this. {Bell: Well that's why I hate TV.} So well basically that's the problem, so the government, the government has eradicated these types of controversies. The third reason uh, for this is that the government is now backpedaling a lot with regard to this program. They're acknowledging the existence of the unit, uh, but they are very, uh, concerned about what happened to the members of the unit. The unit was supposed to be very highly classified. {Bell: Oh? And it's all broken out.} And it's everywhere.

ART BELL

• But still doctor, I can't believe they'd stop it -- look our CIA, bless their hearts, they've got the morals of an alley cat, and if they could get information about what's going on in Russia or China or whatever, I - I - I'm just absolutely certain they've still got a program going on somewhere, maybe not the military one that accounts for your beginnings, but --

DR BROWN

• There is no training program going on, I know that. Uh, the only -- there is no training program going on right now within the miltary. Really they're trying to, they're trying to distance themselves from what has occurred as the former, now retired, remote viewers, uh, are, uh a number of them, not all of them, there were you know, nineteen people that were trained by, uh, Ingo Swann, the original military group, and uh, their, you know, the military right now is trying to backpedal as fast as they can from some of the people that were in the unit that are now coming out publicly talking about it. Basically we're talking about breaking security oaths, we're talking about coming out uh, publicly uh, uh, writing books, trying to make movies, things like that, on something that was one of the most highly classified projects ever {Bell: Right.}, and the government's not happy with that, and uh, the military itself is not, not looking [inaudible section] all this information coming out from its trusted spies --

ART BELL

• Then how come, how come Ingo, Major Dames, all the others, whoever, why are these guys still walking around, why aren't they --

DR BROWN

• Well they've actually clamped down on all the others, they have their own, they have a few Internet outlets, one of them has almost become what you might consider the former military's home page {Bell: {laughs}}, uh, you can get to it by going under Yahoo and looking under, under remote viewing, just search remote viewing under Yahoo on the Internet, and you'll get two institutes, one is mine, the Farsight Institute, actually I can't just say it's mine anymore, there's so many people working -- and the other is the Controlled Remote Viewing home page of uh, one of the former military people {Bell: Right.}, and uh, the whole history of the unit, uh, all of its bumps and everything, warts and everything, can be found there. And uh, uh, you know, the government's not very happy about that. In fact the Controlled Remote Viewing home page, of this retired unit, was actually decimated once by a uh, hacker that got into the internet site where it's housed, got through all the firewalls in fell swoop, went to the home page, eradicated it without eradicating anyone else's, uh, so badly that it couldn't be rebuilt, and had to be uploaded originally again --

ART BELL

• Yeah the, the Internet may be the biggest enemy of government secrecy --

DR BROWN

• [inaudible] anyway, they rebuilt, they rebuilt the site, uh the actual home page for that remote viewing home page, and the next day it was eradicated again by the same hacker who went through yet again more firewalls, and uh, this time the hacker said, you know, I'll show you, and destroyed the actual Internet server {Bell: Wow.}, the actual machine that the, that the site was made on, and then, the hacker so thoroughly destroyed -- this is a high-level hacker that knows everything -- so thoroughly destroyed this thing that the company had to actually go out and buy a new web server for all of its customers, because the machine was destroyed, I mean it was a total eradication -- {Bell: That's amazing} -- so you know, a common run-of-the-mill teenage hacker can't do things like that, so, the basic bottom line is that --

ART BELL

• So the answer is, they _are_ after them.

DR BROWN

• Well they, they haven't gone after the home page again for that group, the Controlled Remote Viewing home page, and the best information I've got so far is that they've basically abandoned the attempt to go after anybody.

ART BELL

• Alright look, we're gonna talk about specific targets here shortly doctor, but you mentioned and teased a little bit, and I did ask you about it the other day, I don't pre-interview but I talk to you for a few moments, and I couldn't resist asking about Flight 800. {Brown: Sure.} You have not yet targeted Flight 800, have you?

DR BROWN

• No, we haven't. And one thing we do know about Remote Viewers is that you can perceive virtually anything, but you only know what you looked at. Like a closet, unless you've looked inside the closet you simply don't know what's there. So with regard to Flight 800, uh, it'll be a great target for the future, but we haven't assigned that to anyone yet.

ART BELL

• Are you going to do that?

DR BROWN

• Oh sure, when they least expect it {laughs} when they, when they're absolutely sure the next target will be the Eiffel Tower, that's when we'll [snap at them?].

ART BELL

• Just a quick answer, if you would. {Brown: Sure.} Um, if you have a group targeting say, Flight 800, would there be any other remote viewers out there that could know you're targeting it, you know could, in essence, understand that you're in the process of targeting something?

DR BROWN

• Well, that's a fascinating question --

ART BELL

• And it requires a quick answer, is the answer yes?

DR BROWN

• Yes -- but the, but the answer that I'll give right after the break is more fascinating than you can imagine.

ART BELL

• Alright, that's a good teaser, stay right there, we'll be right back.

[BREAK]

ART BELL

• Without question, this has been the best, most comprehensive explanation to date of remote viewing. There's no question about it. If you would like a copy of this program, you can get it by calling 1-800-917-4278... you can call right now. Back now to Doctor Brown, Doctor, continue please.

DR BROWN

• Well you had just asked me if it is possible for uh, another remote viewer to perceive you know, a different remote viewer doing something {Bell: Targeting, yes.} -- a target -- well there's two fascinating answers to this. First is, when the U.S. found out that there was a Soviet psychic espionage unit in existence as well during the cold war, the U.S. team was given the target, some members of it were given the target, of literally remote viewing the Soviets. Now remember, the Soviets had a different set of procedures. {Bell: Right.} They did not do training, they did, they got the best natural psychics and coordinated their activities and they developed an 80% accuracy rate. Now, the U.S. team in the Pentagon targeted the Soviet team, and they came, they sent a remote viewer there, under highly controlled conditions again, the remote viewer was not told what the target was [inaudible] just a target -- and the remote viewer found himself uh, looking at a conversation between a woman, who turned out to be uh, the high ranking commander of the Soviet unit, uh having a conversation with somebody else. Now this woman was a natural psychic mind you, she didn't [?] the complicated procedures that the U.S. team did, so she had sort of natural abilities, and one of the first instances of its type happened during this session. The woman turned, and looked directly at the spot where the American remote viewer was located, inside the Kremlin -- or inside -- you know inside Moscow, wherever the actual location of the remote viewing person was, the Soviet one. But the remote viewer, the U.S. remote viewer in the Pentagon then reported to the monitor, but with considerable surprise, that he was discovered, that the female actually looked at him, after he described who she was, uh, uh then the monitor said, oh this is a national security breach, we have to retract this immediately, so they ended the session and brought the American remote viewer immediately back into the Pentagon {Bell: Wow.} and then the Soviet woman extended her consciousness out -- 'cause she was a natural mind you, she didn't need all the elaborate preparatory stages that the American team needed {Bell: Came right back at us.} -- she came right back at him moments later, followed him back, and ended up in the Pentagon looking at them. And it was at that point that the Soviets started to bombard, with probes, the U.S. team, and that's when the psychic warfare took off. Now, in addition to that, uh to answer your question, uh, one of the scientific discoveries, in laboratories -- and actually this happened at Stanford Research Institute, SRI International, Palo Alto, in California, uh formerly associated with Stanford University, and they had to break off uh, during the, after the, actually because of the Vietnam war, students were upset that the university was accepting so many defense dollars, so that SRI International had to break off, but, uh, in the research laboratory, Ingo Swann, who was the original developer of the original military protocols, was sent to a target. And completely identified the target and described it and so on. Couple years later, Joe McMoneagle, one of the natural psychics that was being tested at SRI International, uh, uh, was sent to the same target, couple years later. And Joe McMoneagle, who was uh, uh, one of the military remote viewers, again, he was a natural, not one of the trained remote viewers, he was one of the natural remote viewers, uh, he was sent to the same target in the laboratory, in the laboratory at Stanford Research Institute, and started to describe the exact same target. And then at near the end of the session he said, "But there's one thing that's odd. Uh, over my shoulder, behind me, uh, Ingo Swann is standing there." {Bell: Oh...! {laughs}} So what actually happened was, you see when you remote view, it's not an out of body experience, but some aspect of yourself sort of materializes or becomes part of the scene, and another remote viewer can perceive it, so that once you remote view something, you actually become part of the history of that spot, for example [inaudible]--

ART BELL

• [inaudible] -- in effect, remains there --

DR BROWN

• -- it remains there, for, forever. {Bell: Wow.} In my book I was given, in my book, Cosmic Voyage, as a uh, as a, what they call a calibration target, uh just to check on the, it's a verifiable target just to check on your use of the procedures, I was given the target, under totally blind conditions again, the Battle of Gettysburg. And you know, after doing the procedures I did end up at the Battle of Gettysburg and describing it and even identifying it at the end of the session, this is the Battle of Gettysburg, it was a horrendous scene, it was very emotional [?], I never saw so much, so much uh, life ended --

ART BELL

• Don't you come out of them, don't you come out of them drained? I mean how can you go through the Battle of Gettysburg, seeing it, feeling it --

DR BROWN

• That often does happen. Uh, some of our remote viewers go through a couple sessions, uh three or four sessions a week, and a couple -- some of them go through one a week -- depending on the nature of the session. If the target is the Eiffel Tower, there's not much draining there. But in that case for example, in the Battle of Gettysburg, that was really quite an experience for me, to see that many people kill themselves, and uh, if some other remote viewer were to go to the Battle of Gettysburg, and to poke around long enough, they'd eventually find me. Meaning, they'd see something, they'd call it a spir -- some sub-space being {Bell: Fascinating.}, hovering above the battle --

ART BELL

• I'm with you doctor, listen though, to me for a second, while I ask this, doesn't this go back to our discussion of the nature of time?

DR BROWN

• Well, this is a fascinating subject. We now know that time in reality does not exist. Let me explain.

ART BELL

• Well that would seem to validate it, is what I was saying.

DR BROWN

• Yeah but there's more to it, and you will be shocked when you hear this, because when I heard it, it shook me to my, to my absolute boots: the problem is the following: we found out that time really doesn't exist. What we have when we're in this three plus one dimensional world, in these physical bodies, what we have is not time, what we have is the limitation of perception. When we're looking with our eyes, it's as if we're looking out the window of a fast-moving train. And everything that blurs past the window we see, but in a moment it's gone, and just because a train passes by a tree, and you can momentarily see it [?] you can't see it anymore, it doesn't mean that the tree doesn't still exist. What we found is that there's no experiential difference at all when you remote view something that's in the past, present or future. It's as if it's all in the here and now. And what we now know is that since time really doesn't exist, the only thing that exists is a limitation of our perception so we can only see instantaneously what's occurring in the now {Bell: Gotcha.}, what we really have is a situation in which the past still exists. It never went away. Our limitation of perception limited our ability to see it, but it's still there, and the most amazing thing about this, when it hit me, when I realized after the first time I said, "Oh my lord -- that means the holocaust is still going on. Everything that was bad, everything that was good, still exists. It's not gone anywhere, we just can't see it. Everything that's ever happened, and ever _will_ happen, is in the here and the now. The only thing that's different is that we can't perceive it unless we use specialized procedures that allow our, our soul to get that information about what's in the here and now in the past, in the present, and the future, to our physical electrochemical minds, our limitation of perception is the only thing that's stopping our perception that the past, present and the future all exist -- that means with the future can perceive the past, and it is possible for the past, present and the future to interact {Bell: Sure.} and this is another interesting lesson to learn: if you have some of your listeners out there who have seen flying saucers, UFOs, ETs, and they saw them in the sky and felt fear perhaps, they should discard that fear, because in very great reality, you never know what you're looking at. Who's flying that saucer? {Bell: That's true.} We now know that there are, there are extraterrestrials, truly, [?] species -- [inaudible as Bell and Brown both talk]

ART BELL

• And "when" are they, I was going to say --

DR BROWN

• [inaudible]... some of them are future humans. Well the point is --

ART BELL

• Doctor I've got to ask you about something, if I don't uh, my fax machine will burn up, everybody asks you, and it's gotta be _the_ question, and you have to have targeted it I hope, "Hi Art, can you ask the Doctor please, if Oswald was the lone gunman?"

DR BROWN

• Oh. Well. Let me say... I'm going to give you an answer that you're not gonna be satisfied with, but I'm gonna give it to you anyway. We have targeted the, uh, assassination of JFK, for sure. But we have not made a project out of it, which would answer that question. We send trainees there regularly, uh, and we do in fact get -- in fact, one of the, one of the sessions, uh of a trainee, doing the JFK assassination, is up on our web page {Bell: Is is?}, yeah, so you can actually go to it, I forget which -- we only have results for eleven people up there right now, but by the end of the summer we'll have over thirty up there. We're trying to get the results up as fast as we're, as manpower allows. But we got eleven, but one of them near the end, I think it's eleven or ten, or something, is the JFK assassination, and the trainee was not sent to all the different aspects of the target, that trainee was sent for example to just the JFK assassination, all the basics, and they got, they got the horror, they got all the details, the person in the car, and the metallic vehicle moving, the whole thing -- other viewers have targeted it and have actually followed bullets, and actually got to it and figured out what it was during the target, during the session in fact it was so powerful, but to answer the question Art of whether Oswald was the sole gunman requires a project with multiple remote viewers, professional remote viewers, not trainees, but professionals focusing on just that one target. And there are so many important projects that are with us right now we haven't had a chance to do that one. And uh, but we do have lots of trainees go to that target, and it's a very interesting target, uh, and some of the results [?] be found on the Internet as we speak.

ART BELL

• So they - do they -- ok, alright, and there could be further news.

DR BROWN

• Uh, we could resolve that, if we had the manpower to just focus just on that, we could resolve that.

ART BELL

• Alright. Um, "Please ask Mr. Brown if he agrees with Ed Dames" -- let me tell you what Ed Dames said. Uh, two major things, uh, professor, one: that he saw massive numbers of babies dying, uh, and the second: that he saw massive problems for life forms here on earth due to the jet stream literally coming down "on deck," producing tremendous winds on earth. These are things that uh, he is, he's certain of. Um, have your viewers seen anything that would suggest the same sort of thing?

DR BROWN

• Well, let me say one thing. Uh, you know {sighs}, it's very important for me to differentiate myself and what we're doing here at the Farsight Institute and what other people are doing. Because people can only speak for themselves. {Bell: Understood.} And, and with regard to what other remote viewers have, have done, understand that, that our procedures that we have used, that we are now using and teaching at the Farsight Institute, have evolved from the original military procedures, and that uh, while the information can be gotten -- uh, and there's nothing _wrong_ with the military procedures, uh, just that there's been innovation from that -- and um, and I feel it's very important for your listeners to understand that uh, if I say, no we haven't seen something, or, something else, that doesn't mean --

ART BELL

• That it wasn't seen.

DR BROWN

• That -- you know you, it's like closet, you only look at what you see, you only see what you've looked at, and for some of these things that you've mentioned that other remote viewers have seen, uh, may differ from what we get, in part because we have not looked at certain things, and in also part because we're not doing things... quite as they were doing them, or still are doing them sometimes, and uh, we're doing different procedures, and time will tell, uh, the, with regard to our, you know, our changes, our evolutionary changes in the procedures, whether it's accuracy or whether it's -- whatever - - but in regard to the changes that you're talking about, those particular changes {Bell: Yes, yes.} -- not commenting on that particular person's work, but, just commenting about earth changes {Bell: Yes.} -- uh, so I'm not saying, I'm not comparing what I'm saying now to that person {Bell: OK.}, I'm just saying, you've asked me about earth changes {Bell: Yes.} and you can make the comparison yourself {Bell: Go, go ahead.}. However you want. {Bell: Indeed.} There definitely are climactic differences, changes that are coming. Uh, we are -- and I write about these, in my book, Cosmic Voyage, in quite detail -- uh, whether they're involved with the jet stream changing or something else, um, you know, those are, those are things that I'm, uh, those are details that we've not looked at {Bell: Alright, but --} -- but the point is, that the climactic changes that are coming are not just climate, in the terms of global warming, ozone stuff and things like that, but the fundamental driver of this whole thing is our population on the planet, and in the book Cosmic Voyage, I [?] -- report remote viewing, extensive remote viewing {Bell: Yes.} that goes as far as 400 years out in the future, and what we do now, this may sound strange, but it's true: the future is not deterministic. It's not set in stone. It's probablistic. Now what this exactly means we're not sure, but we do know that the future can change. That's why we have the future, future beings, say, yourself, you could be looking at a flying saucer and not realize that a future version of yourself is actually the pilot, so how could you be afraid of yourself? -- but the point is, tgat the future actually can interact with the past, and the timeline can change. {Bell: Alright --} What I'm gonna say is we have seen some dramatic changes on the planet {Bell: Like what?} -- that are very -- well, if you go out, if you go out thirty, forty years, you start seeing, uh, population problems, really being very severe. And uh --

ART BELL

• As in, as in diminishing?

DR BROWN

• No, in the sense that the population's still growing, but you're running out of food, you're getting starvation in various places -- by the time you get to the year 2075, which is less than 100 years away, I mean you're not talking very far actually {Bell: That's right.}, you're talking when your, when your children and grandchildren are running around and having you, that, their robust time {Bell: Yes.}, you start entering a Mad Max scenario, and you start, it's quite clear at this point that the civilization has to hunker down and go into underground shelters --

ART BELL

• Anar -- underground shelters?

DR BROWN

• Yeah, the population comes apart, the political systems fall apart, there are roving gangs on the surface, the population basically survives in underground bunkers, um, very large encampments, and uh, and it's not everybody gets to go in the bunkers, most people slug it out on the surface, then you go out to two-hundred fifty years, you find the only inhabitants are the people in the underground bunkers, and uh, the rest of the world is barren, basically, and if you go out as far as three hundred years, you start to see that the earth is being terraformed again by humans, slowly coming out of the bunkers, and you go out four hundred years you see sort of a garden of Eden, the humans are much wiser, much smarter, much more careful about their environment, and very carefully putting greenhouses all over the place, in the sense of re- terraforming and bursting the whole planet into life. I have not gone out further than four hundred years. Robert Monroe at the Monroe Institute, when he was still alive, he and some others had gone out as far as a thousand years, and they found a completely reborn planet, I mean completely reborn, robust and very wise humans that are completely reoriented with regard to their role as not users and abusers of the planet, but caretakers. Uh, so we are going through a shift. Humanity does not get wiped out, but we have some hard times ahead --

ART BELL

• Well excuse me if I say, holy smokes -- Doctor, hold on, we need to get to the phones, and we'll do that next hour if you're up for it --

DR BROWN

• I'm up for it, and we should also get to the ETs, the book Cosmic Voyage is all about those, [?] bottom line of the whole thing --

ART BELL

• Oh believe me, we will, and if you knew how much what you just said sounds like what Major Dames said... I guess you'd probably start digging. I'm

ART BELL

• and this is CBC.

[BREAK]

ART BELL

• Professor Courtney Brown is my guest. He heads the Farsight Institute. He is a tenured uh, PhD Professor at Emory University and he is a remote viewer. And in a moment, we're going to talk about the others.

[BREAK]

ART BELL

• Alright. Doctor, two fast questions if I might. One, could ghosts, or what we think of as ghosts, actually be remote viewers?

DR BROWN

• {Laughs} Actually -- actually that's -- uh, you could, they could be misperceived as remote viewers. The point is that, ghosts are just people without physical bodies, and uh, you know, a remote viewer, their, their consciousness, the presence of a remote viewer, can be perceived by a very sensitive person -- normally humans, ninety-nine percent of the time plus, are not aware that you're remote viewing them. That is not the same with ETs. Um, most ETs like Greys and others, they know from the get-go that you're going. They know you're coming before you're even going there.

ART BELL

• We're just, we're just about to get to the ETs. But before we do, one last question, and that is: What would happen Doctor, if during a remote viewing session, you died?

DR BROWN

• Well uh, what would happen if you, like you had a heart attack or something like that?

ART BELL

• Yeah. Died.

DR BROWN

• Well nothing would happen. Uh, you -- it's not an out of body experience, so you're not departing the body anyway, uh, what would happen if the person physically died is that their sub-space aspect, just like any death, would disconnect from the physical body, and they would look back at the physical body, sort of like in the Whoopi Goldberg movie "Ghost," very much like that, no quite literally, it's very much like that, we've seen that happen. You look at a lot of deaths when we do remote viewing because a lot of interesting events have death in it.

ART BELL

• Indeed. Dramatic, traumatic moments. Alright, you --

DR BROWN

• If I could just interject one thing, just before the break, uh, you made a comment, that uh, that might frighten some people, thinking that, you know, like, disaster is imminent, or like uh, should we start digging. And I want to say that I have no indication of anything like that, if anything I have you know, the indication that the changes that are going to happen are going to be gradual, and that uh, you know, the very near term future for humans on this planet is, this is one of the most exciting times to be alive, as you'll see when we talk more about the ETs and so on like that --

ART BELL

• Indeed Doctor, but you did say our children's lifetime.

DR BROWN

• Well the future that far out is, is, very difficult, and I also mentioned that it was probablistic, meaning [?] one that we see, but for reasons that we don't completely understand, it is possible for the timeline to change, I'm hoping for the best.

ART BELL

• I understand. Alright. ETs. You, you did make a serious professional project of Mars, didn't you.

DR BROWN

• Well I studied two ET species. Remember, with remote viewing, you can perceive anything, but you only know, you only know what you looked at. There may be many other ET species, uh, some of which may be interacting with humans, but I only know -- in _detail_ -- about two. And those two species are a species called the Greys, uh, there's written, been written extensively by uh, about by Whitley Streiber, as well as John Mack, David Jacobs, professor of History at uh, Temple University (Bell: I've interviwed every one of them.} -- OK, and uh, Martians. Now, let me tell you something about Martians. If I had wanted to ruin my professional career by writing a book about ETs, uh, and dream up something about a species, and to earn $10,000 from a book {laughs} and ruin my professional career and the whole thing, if I'd wanted to do something like that, to write a book of fiction and try to sell it as fact -- which I have _not_ done, Cosmic Voyage _is_ a book of fact -- but if I had _wanted_ to write a book of fiction and try to sell it as fact, I _never_ would have mentioned anything about Mars. It's too much like Ray Bradbury. It's too much like H.G. Wells. It's just too far- fetched -- the reality is, however, I'm a scientist, and I'm committed to science more than I'm committed to anything else, and a scientist who's worth his weight, his or her weight in salt, must report exactly what the scientific experiments result, and the reality is, we live not alone in our own solar sys -- in our, in our universe, in this galaxy, or, very surprisingly, even in our own solar system. Let me tell you the story about Mars.

ART BELL

• Please.

DR BROWN

• Long ago, at the time when dinosaurs roamed on Earth, there was an ancient Martian civilization. We are very close to understanding that fact. The end of this year, in just a few months, two Martian probes will be sent, from -- by NASA, to Mars, they will be arriving in the middle of next year, and, you know, more of the details of all of the remains of the ruins on Mars will come out into the public light soon. But, let me say this: the Martians of long ago experienced a planetary holocaust _not_ of their own making. They were rescued. We now know that wherever Beings are, they organize themselves. You put people in an elevator long enough, they'll eventually figure out how to, how to organize themselves, who's gonna push the buttons first or whatever {Bell: Yeah.} -- the point is, that the Beings in our galaxy have organized. And there is something called, that we call, the Galactic Federation, there is an actual Galactic organization. When the Martians, they had a civilization that technologically was pretty similar to the ancient Egyptians, three thousand years ago, the pyramid Egyptians. They did not have high-technology, but they had a planetary holocaust that wiped out their civilization, but before they were wiped out, they had a rescue group come in. A group that was sanctioned by this Galactic Federation to go in and basically rescue the Martians. They were a group of Greys, [many?] the Beings that are involved in the so-called abduction phenomenon, that you hear so much about in the literature, and John Mack has written extensively about that in his book -- and these Greys, a rescue unit of these Greys, were actually sent in to rescue, we don't know how many -- all? most? many? -- we don't know -- but, very many many Martians were rescued. They just basically packed up and -- now you have to understand something about the Greys --

ART BELL

• Taken off-planet?

DR BROWN

• Yes, they have an ability, the Greys have an ability to move their ships through time, as easily as space. They have a technological ability to do this. We already have a remote viewing ability to do this, and it's only a matter of years before our scientists in our laboratories, our physicists, understand the physics of why we can do that -- well, once you understand the physics, it's only a matter of time before you have gizmos that can do this as well. The Greys have those gizmos, and they basically can go through a billion years of time like we walk across the street. They brought many, most, all, we don't know how many, but lots of those Martians up to the present time period, actually about a decade, decade and a half, twenty years ago, they brought them up -- where did they bring them? Back to Mars. They are now awakened in underground caverns in Mars -- inside, not on the surface. They are happy to have been rescued. They are ticked off that they happened to have been rescued in the particular manner, meaning, they would love to have been brought to Earth, say a hundred and fifty years ago, they'd be running this planet by now, but the problem is, right now they're on basically a dead world that has no future for them. They must leave. The Greys have bootstrapped their technology, so that they have about a hundred and fifty year technological advantage over us humans. They have an ability to have fast flying saucers, fast ET ships, that go between Mars and Earth, for shuttle runs, to get supplies and things like that. They do not have interstellar, nor do they have inter-time capabilities on the level that the Greys have. So the Martians have no choice. They're between a rock and a hard place. They have got to leave Mars, they must come here. And, this planet is fully populated with an aggressive, hostile, human species that has movies about invasions from Mars, and the Martians themselves are terrified. They don't know -- they're stuck between a rock and a hard place, they are _not_ interested in conquering, they just need to be rescued.

ART BELL

• So they're "IN" a rock and a hard place.

DR BROWN

• They're "in" a rock and a hard place, and the remote viewing results on this are absolutely unequivocable.

ART BELL

• Alright, well alright, what can you tell us about the Martians themselves? What are --

DR BROWN

• Well they're humanoid, just like us now, uh, there are some Martians on Earth. We actually have located one base of theirs.

ART BELL

• You have?

DR BROWN

• It's a, it's a processing base. And in the book Cosmic Voyage, I have actually described where that base is. It's underneath a mountain outside of Santa Fe, called Santa Fe Baldy, and it's underneath that mountain, there's a base. Now mind you, that the Martians are not interested in warfare, they're interested in defense, and their only major defense is clandestine activity. They're hiding. And the real reason is, they have got to get to a point where humans openly want to both discuss things with them, talk to them, and say, you know, can we help, offer a helping hand. We now know for a fact that the rest of the galaxy is looking. This is the biggest spectator sport in the galaxy, to figure out what humans are going to do when they finally take their heads out of the sand like the proverbial ostrich, look up and say, "Alright, alright, alright, you've been flying under our noses for long enough, we admit, we are not alone in this universe, galaxy, or even our own solar system, you exist out there, let us talk." Are the humans going to freak out and send missiles? {Bell: [inaudible]} "My lord, we have Martians, let's bomb them." Or, are we going to say, with compassion, "We hear you have troubles. Uh, can we help?" {Bell: {laughs}} That's what the galaxy is actually looking to see if we will respond. Are we going to be mature participants in what we now know is a robust galactic community of life, or are we going to stay in the daycare camp of the galaxy, and remain primitive?

ART BELL

• We're gonna fill 'em full of lead, Doctor.

DR BROWN

• I have different remote viewing results than that --

ART BELL

• Well I hope, I hope you're right.

DR BROWN

• [inaudible] exciting time to live.

ART BELL

• Listen, it must be 12 fingers down from their point of view on ID4.

DR BROWN

• Oh yeah, but you know, Independence Day was a really fun movie, I enjoyed watching it. You know why it was so great? It's not really realistic. We're not being invaded. But uh, it's very useful from a very important sense. There is an underlying sense, tremendous sense, with regard to the human populace, with regard to the ETs. Most everybody realizes there's something out there. And the government -- and I'll explain why, I explain it in detail in the book, Cosmic Voyage -- but the government has had a very difficult time getting to the point where it can explain things to people. The reality is however, what good does Independence Day, the movie, do? It gets all of that fear out onto the surface. It's like your therapist telling you to go over and punch that couch. What happens with Independence Day? The worst of our fears comes out, and we can just let it vent. The idea of an invasion from outside. And, what also happens is, something very useful. What's the human response? Well, Will Smith, remember what he does, he, he fights with, in a, in a fighter, a jet fighter {Bell: Well I don't wanna get away from --} where an ET -- he punches one in the nose {Bell: Right --} -- and drags it across the desert in an absolutely fearless sense. In the sense, he, ID4 is valuable for the human psyche because humans are not passive in it, we fight back, and so on {Bell: Right.}, so the reality is, we're not being invaded so we don't need to fight, but there, the good part of ID4, of uh, Independence Day, the movie, is it, is it portrays humans in a non-passive way so that we don't feel helpless anymore, and in the same sense, it uh, it gets us to vent all of that fear, get it out like a cathartic release so that we can get on to the reality, which is uh, much more complicated.

ART BELL

• Um, if I were to see a Martian, one that is here on Earth now --

DR BROWN

• You may have already done that.

ART BELL

• Well, that was my question. Would I --

DR BROWN

• You probably would not know the difference. There are various genetic strains of Martians. Some of them look variously different than us. But they're all humanoid, and some of the Martians are very, very close. The closest connection that you might find to the largest genetic strain, the largest group of Martians, would be the Native American community. Uh, they're more like Native American Indian orientation. Uh, not Indian-Indian, but you know, Native American type orientation. {Bell: Yes.} That's the closest you can get to the largest group. But they have a variety of different genetic strains just like we do, that have uh, various, various differences, we have to get over the idea of uh, of uh, racism being the thing that divides our society, and realize that the future is going to be species- ism, species-ism, so we have to understand that we are going to be one species in a large group of species --

ART BELL

• Doctor, do they know who they are?

DR BROWN

• Yes, absolutely, they know who they are, they're trying desperately to hide from us, because they know they have to come here, they don't wanna make us as enemies, they gotta beg their way in here -- on the other hand it's not so many Martians that we're gonna have any population problem -- the other thing is, you must understand --

ART BELL

• Important question: how many are there?

DR BROWN

• We don't know the exact number, but there are many. Uh, but it's not gonna cause a population problem, it's sort of [inaudible] --

ART BELL

• We have five billion plus on our planet. Are we talking, tens of thousands, millions --

DR BROWN

• We're probably talking enough to populate a, a reasonable city.

ART BELL

• That's a small number, really.

DR BROWN

• We're talking, we're talking maybe a few million. We don't have hard numbers on this. But we're definitely not talking a billion.

ART BELL

• Alright.

DR BROWN

• We're talking, we're talking no major change in terms of, in terms of numbers, but we are talking _major_ change in terms of our society recognizing that we're not alone, that we even have near neighbors. Now the other thing is, that you may say, what is the incentive, why should we help them? People have actually said to me, "You know forget the altruism of us having a good name in the galaxy. Why should we help anybody? I mean we had trouble accepting Cambodian and Vietnamese refugees, at the end of the Indo-China war, at the end of the Vietnam War -- uh, why should we help Martians of all people?" Uh, the reality is that even if you don't buy the altruistic argument, that we have to participate in the galaxy of life and help others as we have been helped, we now know that we've been helped countless times -- but even if you don't buy that, there are selfish reasons why we should do that. Generals -- think - - [?] go back to the military. What do Generals hate most? Hate most? And that is, a battlefield surprise. The last thing they want is new technology to appear on the battlefield unannounced. {Bell: You bet.} Now listen. We have Martians out there with about a hundred and fifty year technological advantage over us, we, they are -- the Martians themselves are in desperate -- you have no idea how desperate conditions they are living under right now -- they need to get off that essentially dead world that has no future for them at all -- now what would happen if the rest of the human race stays blind and says "No, we're gonna keep our heads into the sand like that proverbial sand and never lift it up," but somebody like Saddam Hussein for example buys a cheap radio telescope and beams it in their direction and says "Hey! You want a planet, you want a place to land, hey you like desert? We got _lots_ of desert. Just come on over here, you can stay with us, we got lots of empty room. Uh, the only payment we ask for is, why don't you give us a couple of those ships?" _One_ of those ships would have completely reversed the course of Desert Storm. The Iraqi's could not only have taken Kuwait with impunity, but also Saudi Arabia and Turkey and any other place they want -- Generals don't like that scenario, you can be guaranteed the U.S. Military, when it gets to that time, in the _not_ distant future, the U.S. Military's gonna be putting pressure on the President, saying, "Hey look Mr. President, I know this may be a political thing for you, but as far as we're concerned, this is men and women's lives at stake, if there are Martians out there, get those ships into Nevada, get them into Arizona, get them under NATO command, get those things under UN command, United Nations command, let's not have high technology just roaming about for a place to land, let's get those things down here and get those Martians in through proper immigration processes" -- I have to say one more thing: Art: in the processing center underneath Santa Fe Baldy in New Mexico, the Martian base, there's a nursery. There are nurseries elsewhere on the planet as well.

ART BELL

• Nurseries, oh my god -- hold it right -- [inaudible as Bell and Brown both talk]

ART BELL

• Doctor, Doctor you must hold. It's a good cliffhanger anyway. Stay right where you are.

DR BROWN

• I'll be here.

[BREAK]

ART BELL

• My guest is Professor Courtney Brown. Doctor Brown is a tenured PhD Professor at Emory University. He is a remote viewer. He runs the Farsight Institute. And if the kind of thing that uh, we are now discussing scares you, turn your radio off. Because it's getting uh, it's getting to be very, very interesting. And we'll get back to it in just a moment.

[BREAK]

ART BELL

• Alright back now to Professor Brown. Professor, um, the -- what uh, what killed their planet?

DR BROWN

• Oh. Mars? That's a fascinating story. It was not of their -- it was not an environmental problem like what we're doing with our planet, or basically what happened to the Greys and their own homeworld, we visited there as well -- uh, what happened there is there was a outside celestial body that passed by, um, apparently it got very close, um, very, it dipped right into the atmosphere, and caused a uh, atmospheric disruption, uh, that caused climactic changes. Uh, it apparently didn't impact on the planet, it apparently passed by, but whipped right through the planet, it was a very large asteroid, and uh, what happened was it uh, caused atmospheric disruption that uh, Mars didn't have a sufficiently large, sufficiently high gravity to dampen down that, those disruptions, and the atmosphere started to vibrate, and when it got a little higher off the planet it started to experience a situation where much of it was carried by some of the solar wind, and uh, then the climate started to change very rapidly, over a matter of a few months, um, and more uh, place became you know, very destroyed, very upsetting, and a rescue team had to be sent basically in. It was a aster -- it was an interplanetary problem that occurred, it was not something due to the Martians themselves.

ART BELL

• Alright. The Martians are here. {Brown: Yeah.} Now this is, uh, this is, I want a serious answer to this question, if I can get it -- ah, there are, we have two choices apparently, to accept them, and allow them to in effect uh, immigrate and come above ground as they apparently want to do, a -- according to you, or, to reject them, fight them, to react as humans so frequently do, violently: if that is the case, uh would they, like a cornered animal, fight?

DR BROWN

• I -- I don't think so, they don't have anything in their makeup to, they're not an aggressive hostile species, uh, they're so desperate right now there'd be no benefit for them to do something like that.

ART BELL

• Well there is a modern expression about desperate people doing desperate things.

DR BROWN

• On the other hand, your question raises a good point, and uh, it's probably one of the things that the Generals are going to be talking to the President about, saying "Look, we don't want a battle on our hands, if they're desperate let's resolve this thing peacefully, 'cause if they need to get out of there and their only option is suicide, then let's resolve this and help them." But we have to understand there's something else. There are -- uh, we now know, and I've written about it, you know all the things that I'm writing, talking about briefly here are in _detail_ in the book Cosmic Voyage, it's available in all the major bookstores, if they're sold out they'll order it, so you know, if your listeners are wanting to get the rest, of the meat and pot -- the meat that goes on these bones, it's there, you don't have to wait to get it. And the reality is that, that, when it comes to Martians there are -- I mentioned one base, it's a processing base, underneath Santa Fe Baldy outside of Santa Fe inside a National Forest, New Mexico. But there are other places on the surface where villages live, and they're basically mistaken as being thought that they're just sort of Native, uh you know, you know, Native American, or actually not American, but South American, indian stock and things like that, but the point is, uh that they're living a clandestine life because of the nature of their existence, and -- but you have to understand, for example, inside the base underneath Santa Fe Baldy, right here in the United States, in New Mexico, there is a nursery, and this is very typical about the nurseries that exist. There is a nursery where moms are taking care of kids. Now, you have to understand, a lot of those kids were born in that nursery, they were born here. That means, face the facts, we have a constitution, the reality is, some of those kids are American citizens. And their parents have legal rights for expedited green card status. So we have some real reasons for having uh, legal reasons for having a desire to lift our heads up out of that sand like the proverbial ostrich and start saying, not only are we not alone, but some of them are us, and you know, they don't need warheads, what they need is passports.

ART BELL

• Is there a way, is there a way to delineate um, in any way at all between somebody of Martian origin, somebody of Earthly origin?

DR BROWN

• It's as easy to do that as it is to know the difference between an African and a Swede. But you can nonetheless find black Swedes. And you have to, you know you have to understand that if people want to keep themselves hidden, uh, a little makeup, some hats, some glasses go a long way. But the point is, yes, when we actually do start interacting with Martians we will notice some differences. Some, less than others. But with some strains there's gonna be you know, significant differences. The reality is, they are not carbon copies of humans. But they're interesting.

ART BELL

• Well -- well, give me an example, if you know of one, uh or if you're willing to tell of one, of a difference that would be obvious if exposed.

DR BROWN

• Well uh, when I say this, understand what I said early on in the show. What is the remote viewing image like? It's foggier, it's fuzzier, shiftier, you don't get high resolution images in remote viewing. {Bell: Right.} They're shifting, uh low resolution foggy images. So, with remote viewing it's not ever going to be as good as like a TV camera. So the reality is that anything I say may be different when -- and, and, may be different in detail -- when we actually start interacting with these Beings and, and uh, the veil comes off completely. Uh but, uh, in the old days when they were on Mars, the, they were clearly thinner, wispier, weaker, physically weaker Beings. They didn't have as much gravity to deal with, they were much different. Now they seem to be, uh especially the surf -- the ones that are living on the surface, seem to be thicker, heavier, Indian-type stock, you would very easily confuse them if you were going through Latin America, with uh, with Indians in the local neighborhood. {Bell: OK.} On the other hand, there seems to be, in the base underneath Santa Fe Baldy, they seem to be taller, thinner, lighter skinned, and uh, we're, we're not completely sure the eyes are the same, uh, but it -- we're just, we're just gonna have to, it'll [?] be better, we know that they exist and the differences are it's better that we just see them at this point. The best answer to that is, let's wait a couple years and just invite them. {laughs} Invite them in front of the camera themselves. They've gotta get over this very soon. This is not something that we're talking about our children or our grandchildren experiencing, this is something that we're gonna see in our lifetime.

ART BELL

• How soon?

DR BROWN

• Well, I don't expect anything before the presidential election for sure, and when I tell my colleagues uh, you know, how they should judge Cosmic Voyage, uh, I tell them, give me two years for things to sort of pan out a little bit, in terms of open awareness of [?] extraterrestrials, open acknowledgement that the extraterrestrials exist, uh, and so on, and then to get communications starting, but I would think something has to happen very soon, before the year two thousand, because those Beings on Mars are not happy campers, they've got to get off, something has to happen soon, and in addition, the Martian thing is going to be coming to a head very soon because we've got these probes going -- now either the probes are going to be blown out of the sky, uh, which is what happened to the Mars Observer probe that we sent up, I have a chapter on that, Mars Observer probe in Cosmic Voyage, uh to us an interplanetary probe is one thing, to _them_ it's a spy satellite, and it's one thing to send Viking stuff, but to send, to send high-resolution modern interplanetary probes there takes away the clandestine nature.

ART BELL

• Will they blow, will they blow them up?

DR BROWN

• Well they make take it out, but no matter how it happens, somebody, people are gonna ask questions. If they, if they blow them up, 'cause they don't want us to see, 'cause they wanna continue the clandestine nature because they're frightened of us, then people will ask questions, in which case, stuff will start coming out. If they don't blow them up and they actually arrive on the planet and start taking pictures, I mean one is gonna be a rover, on the surface, [?] on that orbits the [?], if we start taking pictures then people are _definitely_ gonna start asking questions. By the way, I should say something that's very important. Do you know -- well, actually, you do know -- I uh -- that there is an internal rule in NASA that's absolutely enforced under all conditions, that right now there are no live out the window uh, video broadcasts that are done from any uh, uh, shuttle that's orbiting the earth. Meaning, if a shuttle's above, uh it's absolutely illegal under NASA rules to, to actually put a, a video camera out there and actually film what's going on out there. Why? Because too many times, the ETs use it [as an?] opportunity to attract our attention, fly a ship in front of the camera, really quick.

ART BELL

• Well there was SKS48.

DR BROWN

• There's all types of problems like that. Now, with Mars, there's a similar thing, there's an internal rule in NASA saying that there's no live coverage before it goes through security clearance, of anything that they discover on Mars. So, you know, NASA knows that there's something going on, in fact, in Cosmic Voyage, in the chapter about the Mars Observer probe that was taken out, uh, I actually cite a New York Times article, and, you know, and in that front section of the New York Times they actually, when Mars observer uh, _was_ taken out, uh, some of the people in NASA started to talk openly, and in that New York Times article it actually describes, it actually quotes some of the people uh saying "Look, that place is a jinxed place," we're actually talking about, uh...

ART BELL

• Doctor I remember when the Mars Observer was destroyed. And I can't recall the source, I'm so sorry, but there was something about an object, or something, that was just briefly seen, or sensed --

DR BROWN

• No. You're thinking now about the Phoebos probe that the Russians sent out. And what happened was the uh, they took out that probe as well, and what happened was, the last photo that came from the Phoebos probe was of a, basically a very highly lighted ET ship approaching the craft at high speed.

ART BELL

• That's right.

DR BROWN

• But the last -- well that's well known. But what was not well known is, is the telemetry of the probe, the last telemetry that was sent over was an energy pulse that surged throughout the ship, and then it went silent. So it was blasted. Now, when it took out the Mars Observer probe, we know this from remote viewing data, [?] -- you know we sent people there on -- it's a very interesting target to send people to, so we do that -- and uh, uh, the Mars Observer probe was not taken out with an energy pulse. They apparently didn't want to make the same mistake that they did with the Phoebos probe. So what happened was, they didn't want any suggestion that an ET ship was approaching, or that an energy pulse went through the ship, they didn't want any last minute or last second evidence of it. So they took it out with a physical, you might call it like a cannonball, a physical, a physical object, so they literally shot it with a, with a humongous cannonball and just blasted it out of the sky, and then it, for all intents and purposes, it just blinked off {Bell: It did.}, from the uh, from all the stuff in NASA, it basically looked like a meteor hit it, so that was a, a change in strategy, I don't know what's gonna happen to the two probes that we're gonna be sending up but you can be guaranteed next year's gonna be very interesting.

ART BELL

• Alright. Why are they doing this? If they are desperate for contact, then why not allow Mars Observer, why not allow --

DR BROWN

• They may, they may allow the next two probes. But the point is, up until now, they wanted to keep themselves secret, because they're literally just on a survival race right now. The Greys didn't put them in a situation where they have everything that they -- you know they didn't have the kitchen sink and everything that they could dream of -- they just, they literally have to rely on -- and they're just like us, they're conservative, they want conservative, guaranteed strategies, they want the ability to fly in and out of this planet and get resources, for food and other things they need, and they don't want restrictions, and the last thing they want is a, is a panicky human race and aiming them up rather than at each other {Bell: Yeah, that makes sense.}, they, they want us to get to the point where we're calm. Now I must say, when my book Cosmic Voyage first came out, one of the most important things that I did, nature provides these things, I don't believe in coincidences anymore, was I was offered a chance to go to New Mexico, and I was put on the strongest radio station in New Mexico, broadcasts out of Albuquerque but it has uh, transmissions all over Santa Fe and everywhere else {Bell: [KROB?].} and it's the very same station that I'm broadcasting on with you right now {Bell: That's right.} and uh, for three hours on a talk show I talked to all of New Mexico and it was beamed right over Santa Fe Baldy, the Martians were listening and there's no question about it, I talked for three hours counseling humans about how they, how we need to be tolerant and acceptant, of other species, of other groups in trouble, and it was the first time that Martians were able to see a human counseling other humans in such a broadly publicized fashion, about the -- about their own existence, about the Martian existence. That is gonna be a very great thing. A very great maturing step for us as a species. When we not only acknowledge that we do not live alone, but that we have neighbors, and that we need to participate with these neighbors. The plot thickens every single day on this thing. It's not like we just say, "OK we have neighbors, so they're there." It's like, we've gotta interact with them.

ART BELL

• Doctor, the Brookings report --

DR BROWN

• Oh yes.

ART BELL

• Oh yes. Well, for all your counseling, I mean, right now on the planet, we can't even get, we can't even get along with ourselves, uh despite Rodney King's best uh, uh, pleadings, we can't get along with ourselves, so, Martians?!

DR BROWN

• That's correct, but you know, we have -- uh, I'm an optimist with regard to us, we have a lot of growing to do, that's why we're here, remember this physical human experience, getting back to the very beginning of the show, is an education for us, and one of the things we need to learn is, sometimes growing a curve's fast, sometimes it's slow, but these next ten years [are?] on the fast track of growing, and as a species we are going to be going through some major changes with regard to our awareness of ourselves, who we are, our composite nature. Just the idea of remote viewing is changing everything. By the way, you know they did a survey, of scientists, a regular survey done by normal scientists uh about telepathy, and it's now passed the fifty percent mark. Fifty percent of all scientists now acknowledge that telepathy probably does exist. We're getting there.

ART BELL

• I believe it, I don't doubt that at all. But here's a good question for you. If these Martians have been protective of their identity and their presence, then uh, forget about our government, they must be, they must be very upset with people like you.

DR BROWN

• No, they're happy, because they know that this clandestine nature, the secrecy has to end. They have to come here, and it has to be open. They're waiting for it to occur. How do they want it to occur? {Bell: Are you --} They want it to occur with the best possible, the best possible means, they want it to occur in a situation where humans awaken, look up, and say "welcome." {Bell: That would be nice.} Not arm ourselves {Bell: I understand.}, but --

ART BELL

• That would be nice, but we're armed to the teeth, Doctor. And --

DR BROWN

• Yes, that's why the Martians are staying secret, because it's a very dicey situation.

ART BELL

• Dicey indeed.

DR BROWN

• Well it's a very delicate situation! You're dealing with a panicky human race that has a genetic composition that can't see beyond its birth and death, and uh, you know, and has movies about invasions from Mars. I mean in the, in December there's gonna be a new movie coming out called "Mars Attacks." Now I'm not upset about that, because it's another one of those cathartic releases that gets it out and it also opens the idea of Mars being alive again, but I -- I don't know what the screenplay is, but the very idea of 'Mars Attacks' coming out at the end of the year is gonna be sort of interesting. We bring Mars back to consciousness again as being a, a, a planet that has life, but the reality is, the Martians are very concerned about their image, I mean they've got a bad rap with regard to uh, movies. {Bell: They do. They [inaudible as both speak simultaneously]} -- they've gotta get over that, but it's not their problem, it's our problem, we're gonna grow out of that, but the result is, we've done the remote viewing into the future. Art I have to tell you that the remote viewing in the future is absolutely, unequivocably, is absolutely certain. We do get over this hump. And we do establish relations with our neighbors. {Bell: Well -} And they do come here.

ART BELL

• With respect to the, the, what you have told us about the Martians, there and here, how sure are you?

DR BROWN

• I'm certain. Now look, first of all, I'm not a gambler. The only time I've ever gambled was when I was in Reno and I was passing through on a bus, much younger --

ART BELL

• Yeah, that's gambling.

DR BROWN

• - and I put 187 pennies into a slot machine, and lost every one {Bell: laughs}. Now listen: I don't gamble. I'm a very conservative person. I have a pristine reputation in non- linear chaos catastrophe theory type application and social scientific research. I don't need the problems of, of a book on ETs. The reality is, I don't do anything unless I'm certain. I'm certain enough to risk my entire professional career. If there are no Martians, I wouldn't be able to get an article, I wouldn't be able to get a letter published with Dear Abby --

ART BELL

• A point well made, and the last one this hour, looks like we'll go the whole way, stay right there, I'm

ART BELL

• [small piece of introductory message missed here] .

[BREAK]

ART BELL

• Professor, um, suppose somebody were to go to New Mexico with big digging equipment and explosives and um, test your um, your, your, your theory --

DR BROWN

• Well let's hope that doesn't happen. Uh, you know, uh, if they were actually going to attempt to physically extract the Martian base, hopefully the government would get involved, besides, it is a National Park, so that wouldn't be allowed you see, a National Park is a perfect place for such a situation {Bell: That's true.}, not many people, it's a low density state, it's a National Park, uh, the only thing they have to worry about is backpackers -- understand that the Martians have a technological ability that's not very far away for us even, figuring out -- uh, the ETs, both Greys -- by the way, we've gone four hours and we haven't even _begun_ to talk about the Greys, and you won't _believe_ their story, [?] it's an extraordinarily interesting story --

ART BELL

• It's right on my list --

DR BROWN

• -- Yeah, but uh, let me just, let me just mention that somehow there's a technological ability to change the phase, vibrational something or other of matter, so that physical matter can pass through other matter. Uh, ET ships don't need a tunnel to get through rock. They flip a switch and they go through. In the abduction uh, phenomenon, the abduction literature, for example the stuff that's written about by John Mack {Bell: Right through walls.}, he writes extensively about how ETs uh, pass people through walls {Bell: Right.}, windows, they never open the window {Bell: That's right.} uh, and, the reality is, for the Martians to get to their base, they're flying their saucer, they're flying their ships, they flip a switch, they go right through the mountain, and then flip the switch off when they get inside the hangar, underneath the mountain, uh, it's a perfect place, uh, the only thing that they have to worry about is backpackers, uh, so it's certainly a good enough place for a processing center, uh for the next, uh, could, couple some-odd years, while we're sorting things out, but the remote viewing, I have a chapter about this in Cosmic Voyage, the remote viewing done under totally blind, laboratory controlled type conditions uh, of the future of that base is that eventually uh, it's a, a tunnel is made to get into the base, and it becomes an immigration processing center. {Bell: OK.} And so uh, you know, a tunnel is made, train tracks are put through it, I mean, passing in and out with advanced ships may be ok for the Martians, but when it gets to humans putting people in and out on a processing center, immigration processing center, we're gonna want tunnels and, and, you know, vehicles that can go in and out normally.

ART BELL

• OK. Since time is short, I wanna ask -- I've had Graham Hancock on my program. Um, Richard Hoagland on my program. And countless others who would tend to verify a great deal of what you're saying. So I've got to ask you, about the pyramids {Brown: {inaudible as they both speak simultaneously}} -- wait now, wait now -- the pyramids on Mars, the face on Mars, and what we have at Giza, and how it relates to what you've been telling us, if it does.

DR BROWN

• Well, the Martian Cydonia complex, where the pyramid is, as well as the uh, the face and so on like that, those, those are clearly the ruins of an Ancient Martian city, we send people there all the time, it's one of our favorite spots to send people, because it's such a clear target, we send them back in time to the time when that place was actually active, and in fact you see people running around, people doing things, you can actually see the city in dismay when a volcano erupts nearby {Bell: Really?}, yeah, when the, it's a, it's sort of like Pompeii when, when the volcano goes by, but also when the climactic problems start to occur, you see the destruction of the city, 'cause they didn't have a high technology back in those days. And so they were really, terribly affected. And so um, uh, that's clearly the remnants of a, of a city. So those are -- [?] so what Richard Hoagland and others have been saying about those being ruins is true. Those are ruins. And that's very near-term, you're not gonna have to wait for your kids and grandkids to know that, you'll know that in your own lifetime. Now the other thing is, uh, Mars and, uh, Egypt, you know, seems very, very parallel, because we indeed have a Sphinx, we have pyramids and so on, and we have to remember that the word Cairo, the root to the word Cairo, in Arabic, is Mars, Cairo means Mars, that's the root of the word. And uh, there was a tremendous parallel in culture between the Egyptians three thousand years ago and the ancient Martians that were destroyed. There may be a very specific link between Mars and the ancient Egyptian culture. I don't know that link, we haven't, we only have, we're trying to get more remote viewers to solve so many of these problems, but the, I don't believe in coincidences anymore, there's enough coincidental similarities to make me think that it's certainly worth a very good look, uh, because the word Cairo means Mars, uh, the pyramids, the face, the same type of stuff, the same ruins, uh it's too reminiscent of --

ART BELL

• So these will be targets.

DR BROWN

• Yeah, these -- but something like that has to be resolved in a project, and a project means a whole bunch of remote viewers {Bell: I understand.} remote viewing something under tightly controlled -- and you're dealing with professionals at this point, not just trainees. {Bell: Right.} Trainees have experiences and we publicize that, and we put them up on the Net, but many of these projects require uh, professionals working -- and we're getting that way, let me tell you that there are many people uh, in our Professionalization Program, after taking the Farsight Voyager, the first intensive one week course, there are many people that have you know, stayed with it and are going onto the Professionalization Program. Everybody that takes the course, so far, absolutely every single person has had very clear remote viewing results, but the point is, we want many of those people to go on and become professionals, and as many as are intuitively driven, or drawn, we want them to become teachers, we want them to become better than the best ever were, we want them to be better than myself, uh, you know, every generation of remote viewers is gonna be better than the past generation. So uh, we're trying to get you know, this Institute expanded as much as possible. We know that the future of the Institute is very bright, because, we know that uh, uh, the things that are already out in the press, Cosmic Voyage, things like that, those are things that are just on the very near horizon for being verified. You know the one thing is, we have known the remote viewing results for a long time. The laboratories have had solid evidence of remote viewing being an operational capability for three decades. But it's not made a dent on the planetary population. Scientists and others have been able to just simply disregard it, and say it's just not relevant, or just plain say it didn't happen, like just to ignore it, but the reason Cosmic Voyage is so important as a book, is it raises the stakes phenomenally, because it's no longer a parlor trick. Now, remote viewing, a demonstration of who we are as composite beings, remote viewing is now used to say something before it actually occurs, and when the actual ET stuff really hits, in the very near future when we really all are, the planet talking about our interplanetary neighbors, then everybody will say, wow, remote viewing really isn't a parlor trick, consciousness really matters, this stuff was all known and published in advance of it actually occurring -- that means that the understanding of who we are as beings, the nature of our soul, leaves the realm of idlers and enters the realm of the mainstream, and that is one of the most exciting planetary changes that we're going to be seeing.

ART BELL

• The Greys. Let's do it. Who are they?

DR BROWN

• Those Greys are interesting. You know, they had a bad rep. What had happened with the Greys was, the early abduction literature was filled with horror stories, about how they were abducting people in the middle of the night, performing gynecological and neurological experiments, and, and procedures, and --

ART BELL

• Are they?

DR BROWN

• Well -- in a way, but the reality is, we now know the whole picture. You see, back when we first got introduced to Greys, back in 1947 when in fact, the Roswell thing did occur, we sent people there uh, under uh, under totally blind conditions regularly because it's such an interesting target, there really was a crash. We can even now, find, we occasionally target even the wreckage now, where the remaining parts are, what laboratories the parts are and things like that. The point is, back in 1947 when we first found out as a government about the Greys, the government was put between a rock and a hard place. What could the military tell President Truman, and all the other presidents afterwards? They could say, "Well look Mr. President, you can tell people on the radio or on television or whatever, uh, that the ETs are here. They have extraordinarily advanced technology. Basically we're defenseless. And that they may be doing some things to our citizens that our citizens may not particularly like. Oh and by the way Mr. President, the only other thing you could tell them is uh, that everyone can panic at their own discretion." And every president since Truman has said the same thing: I'm not going on the air with that.

ART BELL

• Well I wouldn't either.

DR BROWN

• You've gotta give me something better, there's got to be some hope at the end of this tunnel, and one of the main reasons for Cosmic Voyage is to give the other end of the picture, to give the information that was lacking back in 1947, so we now know that in fact we're not being invaded by hostile species, if anything the Greys are, are as helpful to us as they were to the Martians, they're the calvary, the rescue corps, but the reality is, the Greys are an _extremely_ interesting, _extremely_ benign and helpful species. Now let me explain. They had a lot of, lot of bad press. And the reason is, because they're so different from us. Let's go back. The Greys. Unlike the Martians, destroyed their own homeworld. It wasn't a interplanetary holocaust that was not of their own making, they were very similar to us, except they were, they did not have the limitations that we have, that were completely telepathically aware, even back then, uh, but, they were very similar to us in that they were burning themselves off their own home planet. They basically killed their own planet through wanton abuse of their environment, greed, selfishness, the works. And what happened is, they had to go underground in order to survive. Not too dissimilar to what we're gonna be facing in a hundred years -- actually less than that, about eighty -- but, the point is, they had to go underground, and when they went underground, the [?] as a matter of survival, they had a collective nervous breakdown. They had -- well now we have to start fiddling with our science, with our genes. Well we'd, it'd be nicer if we were a little shorter, because it's hard to walk around in these tunnels. It'd be nicer if we had larger eyes, there's not that much light down here, down under. And then they started to saying well, you know, as smaller Beings it's harder to give birth, we might as well start raising our fetuses in, in tubes, in like, large canisters. And then they started to say, "Well look, we're getting good at this genetics manipulation stuff, why don't we solve the problem in the first place. Why don't we get rid of the rampant emotions, the greed that we have and everything else that drove us to this stuff?" And then they did the following: You know when you have a happy experience? You have happy molecules that are created electrochemically in your brain. When you have an unhappy experience, you have unhappy molecules that are created. That's why a mood takes a little while to dissipate, 'cause the molecules are still hanging around. And the Greys said, "Let's change our brains, genetically, so that we have only the one electrochemical response to any stimulus that we get. And we'll try to advance spiritually." They were self-realized, in the sense they knew they were composite Beings. "We'll try to advance in the spiritual realm, and we'll get rid of all the anger, all the hostility, everything" -- they even got rid of love. On the electrochemical level. And what they have is basically a society that's not that [?] different from Spock. Electrochemical brains that produce only one benign response to anything that happens to them, and they evolved spiritually, tremendously -- but they realized eventually they were in a cul-de-sac, a dead end, the reason for them Being composite beings, physical as well as subspace, was so that they could experience something in the physical realm. And then, they realized that unless they had more emotional flexibility in their minds, they couldn't be like some of the very great Beings that they discovered out in the realm. They needed to experience more. Yet they were terrified of going back to their own past. They were terrified of their own past genetics. Because that's what led 'em into that problem, that collective nervous breakdown in the first place. They went to the Galactic Federation. All of this is explained out in detail, point by point, in the book Cosmic Voyage. And they went to the Galactic Federation, served as, as outstanding members of the Federation for many projects, including rescuing the Martians, for a long time, and they eventually, finally, submitted, like going for a National Science Foundation grant, they submitted their own application, for help in a genetic uplift project for themselves. And they picked our planet, Earth, because a tremendous variety in genetic variation on this planet. And they applied to the Galactic Federation and said, may we have permission to go there and use the gene pool? They were awarded the grant. They were said, they were given permission. And then, they got here, and what they do, you have to understand, we were alive before we were alive, we were alive before we were physical bodies. They go around, we've witnessed this countless times, they go around and people, human beings, or Pre-human beings, people before they are physical human beings, volunteer. And they say, countless times we've seen this, and the Greys ask for permission. And the people volunteer and say, "When I am a physical human being, I am willingly going to participate in this so-called abduction phenomenon so that you can get some of the genes to help uplift the species." By the way, I have to say, before the commercial happens, I have to tell you, we have to come to this at the next half hour, the project works. It is one of the most beautiful transformations of the species that anybody has witnessed on -- ever, and the point is, many humans volunteered before they were human, knowing full well that when they were, when they did become human, because of the limitations that we have self-imposed on ourselves with regard to our own genetics, that we would not remember the experience. And when you actually have an abduction experience, you don't remember that in fact you gave permission, but the Greys are almost comical, in the way that they ask permission for _everything_, and so the point is, that when we remote view, say, for example, a woman, but it happens with men too, but a woman, being abducted, being transported up to a Grey ship, having gynecological procedures going on and fetuses going in and out and so on, on the surface level if you put a meter up to her electrochemical brain it's like right at the meter, it would break the meter, panic, chaos, horror, everything: but then the remote viewer can go deeper, and we have, many times, you go into the subspace component, the subspace aspect of the person, the soul, and you find ecstasy, the reason for existence, fulfillment of purpose, and it doesn't make sense! And then the remote viewer has to travel back in time, before the person was born, and you find a fully sentient being saying, "I participated."

ART BELL

• Alright. Hold it right there, we'll be right back. Doctor Courtney Brown is my guest. There'll be more.

[BREAK]

ART BELL

• Back now to Doctor, uh, Brown. Doctor, um, they want you to talk more about the Greys, I've got a few phone calls I really really wanna get to, but I wanna ask you, where are the Greys from?

DR BROWN

• They're from another planet. They're clearly not future humans. They're from another star system in our galaxy. We're not dealing with galaxies that are far away. By the way, we must understand something that's very exciting. One of the remote viewing sessions uh, that was introducing this concept, we've later gotten it much more thoroughly, but the remote viewing that I've written about in the book, Cosmic Voyage, uh, one of the remote viewing sessions indicated that we, when we got to the Galactic Federation Headquarters, uh we actually had an interview, uh, the military remote viewing was never interactive, it was always just -- they disregarded any interaction is basically what happened, but we have gotten it to the point where we actually, with telepathically capable Beings, you actually can get information backward and forward, uh, when you're doing the remote viewing, uh, professionals can, and uh what we've found out was that there, is that the Galactic Federation actually needs us, we're not just kids coming out of the daycare camp, there's actually a role for us to play, the Galactic Federation is _not_ spread throughout the entire galaxy, and there's, you know, there's, it's literally like the Star Trek series {Bell: Somehow I'm not surprised.}, the Federation is expanding, and there's, you know, and there's literally [?] to explore, and things like that --

ART BELL

• Somehow I'm not surprised. What you seem to suggest though is that genetically, um, without tampering, without changing genetically a race, any race, really, is ultimately doomed.

DR BROWN

• Well no, no, no. Listen, listen, listen, listen. Nothing, nothing, ever, stays constant. {Bell: [?]Yes.} So in that sense, everything is doomed. The point is, evolution is the only name of the game in town. There's no other game. The reason that the Greys are different from humans is that some Beings prefer the Grey experience to existence over the human experience to existence. {Bell: I understand.} And we choose to enter the human realm and to participate in this human realm for awhile until we get tired of it and move on, but uh, the difference is, is that there is endless variation to existence, and some experiences are different than others. And the Greys experience life differently than us. Now. Art. Before we run out of time, I - I just have to say one thing. I'm a very controlled remote viewer, in the sense that, uh, I'm fully professional, I run a school, uh, actually there's a number of people, a whole bunch of us running it now, but the point is, that in a remote viewing session, I never "lose it," in the sense of, you know, any emotions I get are clearly put in the right spot and I don't, they don't affect what I'm doing. But twice, I almost lost it. Let me tell you those two experiences. The first, was when I remote viewed the future Greys. The result of this genetic project. The Greys found they needed a new experience, a different experience. They didn't want their old genetics, they wanted something brand new, they wanted part of our genes. They don't want the whole thing, they consider us a dysfunctional species in some regards. {Bell: Oh, we are.} We're aggressive, we're territorial, we fight, look at our divorce rate, look at how we treat kids a lot of times, or the homeless people. Well, they don't want our aggression, our hate, our anger, our fear, our territoriality, they don't want that. But, they do want the love, the nurturing, the caring, all the good things. And so those are the genes that produce those type of electrochemical responses for love, caring, nurturing, things like that, that they're splicing in, slowly but surely, into their own genetic framework. And when we have remote viewed the future, the first time I did this, the future of the Greys, when you go to their planet, yes they have a planet, a future planet, when you go to the planet where they take this race, that literally is our grandchildren, they are our offspring, they're half us {Bell: I understand.}, and when you go to this planet, and look at them, and do a mind probe and perceive them, it can, it's just one of the most beautiful things anyone could ever see. They're like, you know we've also remote viewed uh, famous personalities, like Jesus, Buddha, things like that -- uh why not? They lived at one time, they -- obviously no one dies, so you can remote view them at any time. And uh, the Jesus personality is a very interesting personality. Uh, when I remote viewed the Greys, the big difference between the personality of Jesus and the personality of the Greys was that Jesus had more of a command structure, more of a command personality, more of a, you know, sort of an authority type of -- very pleasant, but you have to sort of experience it, the words don't do it justice -- uh, but Jesus is a very uh, beautiful personality to remote view, we send trainees there from time to time, he's been very cooperative under completely blind situations. But, with the Greys, it's like that, you get all the love, all the nurturing, all the caring, none of the hostility, they're like the types of people you want next door, the ones who always have a cup of sugar when you need it. {Bell: Good neighbors, yeah.} And now the other time, the second time, that I uh, almost lost it in a remote viewing session, and what that means is I almost had to just break off the session, the emotions were so overwhelming, is uh, the emotions of the target were so overwhelming to me. Was when I remote viewed the Martian flotilla, leaving Mars, finally, when the day of exodus, like the, like the Israelies, Israelites leaving Egypt, the day of exodus when they leave their prison planet and come here, that flotilla -- it almost chokes me up when I just think about it -- but, the emotions of those people, the euphoria, of coming, to the promised land, Earth, coming out of their imprisonment to the promised land, the emotions inside that flotilla when it comes in our not distant future, is just one of the most remarkable states of emotional awareness that has ever been experienced by anybody. {Bell: Alright, I --} They're happy to come here.

ART BELL

• Doctor, we've gotta take a couple of calls. I have people waiting, so let's do it. First time caller line, you're on the air with Professor Brown, hello. CALLER Good morning Art. Uh, you've absolutely outdone yourself this time, this is incredible. Uh, Doctor Brown, good morning to you.

DR BROWN

• Good morning, and I want to thank you for calling.

ART BELL

• Where are you Sir? CALLER Uh, [?] Colorado, [listening to you on KCSB out of Pueblo], and uh, Doctor Brown, I'm a skeptic, but I'm an open minded skeptic, and uh, I'm one of these "show-me" type people --

DR BROWN

• That's healthy. CALLER And I'm gonna, I'm gonna get your book tomorrow, and I'm wondering if I'll be able to find information in that about your, your intial one week uh, seminar there --

DR BROWN

• Absolute -- well actually, in the back of the book, there is a section for contacting the author at the Farsight Institute, so the, the PO Box and everything, the address, is there in the book. I want to also say that in the web page, people can contact us on the web page, and uh, uh, we're also in the phone book and stuff like that, we have information packets, plus applications that we mail out. In addition, if you go onto the web page, you can not only find us, find out about us, but you can also see some of the student results, we're trying to get them posted as fast as we can, by the end of the summer we'll have a whole bunch of new stuff, but uh, uh, we've got a, we've got 11 people's stuff posted now, and lots more is coming {Bell: Alright --} -- uh, yeah --

ART BELL

• Thank you very much, so there's the answer, caller, all the information you need, uh for contact is in the book, and the book is in any, just about all the bookstores --

DR BROWN

• It's in all the bookstores, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's selling very very well and uh, uh I should also say that there eventually will be a paperback version, but that probably won't be 'till 1997. {Bell: {laughs}} By the way if a bookstore's sold out, just tell them to order it, they can get it quickly.

ART BELL

• Alright. Wild Card line, you're on the air with Professor Brown. Hi. Where are you? CALLER Hi. I'm in Toronto, Canada. Um, Doctor Brown, you were talking about Roswell {Brown: Yeah.}, and uh, I was wondering if the Army has possession of the bodies, if there were bodies that were found, and if they were Martian or they were Grey, or do you have any description on that.

ART BELL

• Good question.

DR BROWN

• They were Grey, they were not Martian. Uh, you know the odd thing about that Roswell event -- by the way yes, the wreckage is uh, is still around, we even send some remote viewers from time to time to the current location of the wreckage, it's sort of -- when you get to the point where you can do things like this, you have to think of new targets that will keep the --

ART BELL

• I understand. Where is, where is the wreckage?

DR BROWN

• Actually, you know, to, I, to, to, to locate it geographically is something you can't do with a trainee, and that's all we've done, we've send trainees to the actual location and they get identical descriptions of this type of thing. But to locate the actual geographical location you need a full project, and that we just have not had the resources to do yet. {Bell: Alright -- } Cosmic Voyage is a full project, we have some full projects, Cosmic Voyage is a printed full project --

DR BROWN

• I am beginning to understand the difference. Uh, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Professor Brown, hello. CALLER Uh yes, this is Bill in Minnesota. Uh yes, Professor Brown, I'm wondering uh, how do your uh, administrative supervisors at Emory University uh, how much do they know about your work, and how do they feel about it?

ART BELL

• Good question.

DR BROWN

• Oh they know, they know all about what I do. But I do, I do different things at Emory than I do at the Farsight Institute, I've clearly separated them out, and also, they have a very great respect for academic freedom here at Emory, so at the Farsight Institute, uh, which is a private institute, uh we teach the remote viewing, we talk about these things, and at Emory University I teach my courses in, in non-linear mathematical applications of social scientific phenomenon, and other things like that. I keep those things basically separated, and, and Emory has a very very strong tradition of intellectual freedom, it's one of the most prestigious universities in the country, but I must stay that it started out, as a, as a Methodist university, long, long ago, so it was founded on the basic idea that there is something real to the unseen. CALLER I mean, are they generally supportive, are they, don't consider you sort of an oddball or something like that?

DR BROWN

• Well uh, you know it's more benign neglect than anything else, and that's the way it should be, because that's the way, I've, I've asked it to be that way.

ART BELL

• {laughs} Alright, fair enough. Uh, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Doctor Brown, hi. CALLER Hi this is Dawn, um, I'm calling from Phoenix Arizona. I have a question about uh, as far as research you've done, and your studies at the college there, uh, have you ever had a situation where any of your controlled subjects had an um, an experience, or told you about, control stations dealing with influences about remote viewing, uh, of a different kind, not so controlled, on a deeper level? I'm trying my best here to attempt this...

DR BROWN

• Explain it a little more. Um, I don't quite understand -- CALLER I have done remote viewing, with control stations throughout the United States, I have worked with the government, the military, um, I am a subject of a different approach of that one aspect of remote viewing. And I wondered if they have ever seen anything of the nature of, um, you know, um, government, computer systems, people -- literally, things tapping into your brain -- [inaudible as Brown and caller talk at the same time]

DR BROWN

• Uh, I have no -- you know, one of the good things about being a Professor is uh, you, you have the authority to say, you don't know. And to be quite honest, I don't know. We haven't had any experiences with seeing anything like that, that doesn't mean something like that doesn't occur, I know some people in the military, in the official military remote viewing project, have stated to me on occasion that they think such things go on, um, and some of the -- I don't know -- but uh, I don't know anything about it.

ART BELL

• OK, good enough. Let's uh, let's continue, we only have a very few moments, and I've kind of ignored the phones, first time caller line, you're on the air with Doctor Brown. CALLER Good morning.

ART BELL

• Good morning, where are you? CALLER Southern Utah. I'd like to ask uh, Courtney Brown a question. My question is uh, I know Joe McMoneagle, I was at Monroe Institute uh, for two different weeks, I'd like to find out, uh, phone numbers on how to get a hold of this Farsight Institute.

ART BELL

• Do you want to give that out, Doctor?

DR BROWN

• Oh sure. Actually, the best way is to write us though, because uh, we're overwhelmed after a show like this, with the phones, and uh, but I will give out the phone number, but let me give out two phone numbers, uh, the fax number is something good, because something physically written like a letter or a fax is always better because we have an address we can clearly get, and the fax number is 404-636-5148. And if you faxed us your address and so on like that, then we can get information packets to you. And the regular phone number, and uh, if the secretary's not in there'll be a computer voice mail system that will allow you to uh, leave address and so on like that, is 404-320-2007. But it's much better to uh, other than leaving voice message, it's much better to actually write us, at Farsight Institute, PO Box 49243 Atlanta GA 30359 USA. The address for that is in the back of the book, Cosmic Voyage. And uh, for people who are interested in remote viewing training, a very good first step is often just to get the book, and uh, uh, ask for an information packet, and we send it right out. And to those people who do have Internet access of course, you can get _immediate_ satisfaction by just zipping through our home page.

ART BELL

• So Doctor you are right now at the home of the Olympics, which have just gotten underway -- you have not taken a look at whether they're going to be safe, have you?

DR BROWN

• No, we haven't looked at that. You know, you have to understand that there's so many projects and the, the things that are sort of, uh, current events happening right now, uh, it's very hard, given the number of people we have trained right now, to mobilize things for sure like that. In the future, when there are literally more remote viewers and more projects going on, then we'll be able to do things like that. But at this current time I'm just looking like everybody else is looking, at the television and wondering what's happening.

ART BELL

• Alright. East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Doctor Brown, hi. CALLER Yes hello, this is Mark in [?] Kentucky. I came in a little bit late, so I apologize if this has already. Um, I'm like one of the other callers, I'm a little bit skeptical with some of this, um, I was wondering if Doctor Brown could give us any kind of an unequivocable, undeniable future event, in the near future, so that we can confirm this really works.

DR BROWN

• Absolutely. Go out and buy the book Cosmic Voyage, I've put my whole reputation on the line with that. The point is, it's printed, it's in print, and it's either true, or it's not true, you don't have to argue about it, in the sense that, someone can say you cross the street, you can talk to them about it and you can say, well what do you think, and they can want to get into an argument about it, and you know what you can say? Just say hey, there's no use in arguing, let's just wait a while. Patience is a virtue. And if it turns out to be true, you'll know it. The books is the proof. If it turns out that, that there are no Martians, that there are no Greys, then you know, I'm ruined. I'm not a gambler, I'm not gonna be ruined. But the point is, the book is the proof. It's the biggest proof that'll ever be needed. In fact it's written precisely to be that way, so that the question of, of whether we actually have a composite, a composite nature, whether remote viewing actually works -- that will be totally and irrevocably removed from our setting, from our agenda, forever, when the ET stuff finally happens.

ART BELL

• Well Doctor, we're running out of time. Um --

DR BROWN

• It's been a joy.

ART BELL

• It really has been a pleasure to have you. And we will -- obviously, there's so much untouched ground that we will have you back again.

DR BROWN

• Well, I will be very pleased and always honored, uh, whenever you invite me to come.

ART BELL

• Doctor, get some sleep.

DR BROWN

• I shall.

ART BELL

• Thank you my friend.

DR BROWN

• Thank you Art, and you have a great day.

ART BELL

• And goodnight. Alright everybody, that was Professor Courtney Brown, and many many many of you have requested his presence on this program for a long time, and, so we finally connected. Now, I would like to close by thanking all of you who have no doubt stayed with us throughout the night. I will tell you to get a copy of the absolutely incredible program that you just heard, you can call 24 hours a day, 800-917-4278. That would be the program you just heard with Professor Courtney Brown of the Farsight Institute and Emory University.

[end]

Transcribed by PJ Gaenir, fire@zmatrix.com
Other firedocs at http://www.paradigm-sys.com/firedocs/

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