UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Sep

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Sep 1998

  Sep 1:

   Earth Microbes On The Moon - Stig Agermose [81]
   Mars Ship May Also Be Crew Quarters - Stig Agermose [112]
   Re: Mexico City UFO Footage - Leanne Martin [18]
   Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint - Donald Ledger [39]
   Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report? - Greg St. Pierre [17]
   Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint - Scott Carr [30]
   Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint - Gre St. Pierre [8]
   New Device Authenticates UFO Videos - Stig Agermose [47]
   Plan For Planes Over Mars - More - Stig Agermose [163]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles - Jakes Louw [11]
   Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint - Michel M. Deschamps [142]
   BAR 199808 - BufoCalvin@aol.com [171]

  Sep 2:

   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles - Mark Cashman [27]
   Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint - Mark Cashman [63]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles - Mark Cashman [27]
   Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report - Donald Ledger [14]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Perry Mick [7]
   Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint - Donald Ledger [25]
   Re: '75 Sightings at Loring AFB? - Bob Young [17]
   Re: Pointer To The Circles? - bruce maccabee [17]
   Black Helicopters? - Keith Stevens [26]
   Circles Reported in British Columbia - Paul Anderson [52]
   Re: David Jacobs Target Of 'Skeptical Enquirer'? - John Velez [12]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Bruce Maccabee
   [51]
   Re: P-1947: Walt's Woes - The Decline of MUFON - Jerome Clark [50]
   DISPATCH # 102 -- the weekly newsletter of - ParaScope@AOL.COM [126]
   Sites On Ardennes UFO Wave Now In English - Stig Agermose [6]
   Re: '75 Sightings At Loring AFB? - Michel M. Deschamps [402]
   Current Books Whose Titles Include 'UFO' - Rebecca [63]
   Phoenix Light Arrays - Bruce Maccabee [9]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles - Bruce Maccabee [14]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #268 - Alfred Lehmberg [55]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Mark Cashman [27]
   Ashland County, Ohio Flaming UFO 08-29-98 - Kenny Young [223]
   Re: Black Helicopters? - Bob Shell [31]
   Re: Mexico City UFO Footage - UFO UpDates - Toronto [22]
   Re: Black Helicopters? - Donald Ledger [15]
   Re: David Jacobs Target Of 'Skeptical Enquirer'? - Greg Sandow [41]
   Ashland County - Update - Kenny Young [255]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Larry Hatch [14]
   Re: Phoenix Light Arrays - Serge Salvaille [3]
   Re: Black Helicopters? - John Velez [17]
   Re: Mexico City UFO Footage - Mark Cashman [11]
   Re: Phoenix Light Arrays - Bruce Maccabee [2]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles - Michael Christol
   [66]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Mark Cashman [8]
   Mars Global Surveyor - Status Report - Stig Agermose [61]
   Mars Multimedia Pages - Stig Agermose [26]
   Black Hole Time Travel Theory Disputed - Stig Agermose [37]
   Re: Mexico City UFO Footage - Dennis Stacy [14]
   Re: Little Green Burning Men - Stig Agermose [87]

  Sep 3:

   Re: Black Helicopters? - Bruce Maccabee [5]
   September UFO Update at The Temporal Doorway - Mark Cashman [27]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Bruce Maccabee
   [30]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Bruce Maccabee [5]
   Liquid Metal Calls The Shots - Stig Agermose [42]
   Re: Mexico City UFO Footage - Bruce Maccabee [33]
   Re: Mexico City UFO Footag - Mark Cashman [31]
   Re: Mexico City UFO Footage - Scott Caput [6]
   Re: Mexico City UFO Footage - John Velez [30]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Leanne Martin [37]
   Re: Review - Friedman Lecture, Brisbane, Oz, - Kathleen Anderson [30]
   Re: Black Helicopters? - Kevin Randle [23]
   Re: Review - Friedman Lecture, Brisbane, Oz, - Steven Kaeser [21]
   NIDS Essay Contest - Dennis Stacy [9]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Mark Cashman [25]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Bruce Maccabee
   [43]
   P-1947: Re: MUFON's Moribundus - Francis Ridger - slk [68]
   Re: Black Helicopters? - Alfred Lehmberg [20]
   P-1947: Re: MUFON's Moribundus - Steven Kaeser [36]
   Filer's Files #35 - George A. Filer [299]
   Re: Mexico City UFO Footage - Jim Deardorff [33]
   Re: David Jacobs Target Of 'Skeptical Enquirer'? - Jerome Clark [22]
   Re: Black Helicopters? - michael Hodges [14]
   Re: Black Hole Time Travel Theory Disputed - Stig Agermose [46]
   E.T., E-Mail Home - Stig Agermose [116]
   Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles - David Rudiak [198]

  Sep 4:

   Re: Alien Rupture - the truth breaks out. - David Rudiak [73]
   Re: Black Helicopters? - Kevin Randle [3]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - RobIrving [7]
   Re: Mexico City UFO Footage - Steven Kaeser [27]
   Re: TNT UFO Special on September 13th - Steven Kaeser [23]
   Re: Mexico City UFO Footage - Robert Irving [6]
   Re: Mexico City UFO Footage - Alex Franz [121]
   Spacecraft Finds New Evidence Of Lunar Water - Stig Agermose
   Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk> [82]
   Lunar Prospector Provides Wealth Of Data On Moon - Stig Agermose [72]
   UFO Experiences Caused By Electromagnetic Signals? - Stig Agermose
   [121]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Michael Christol
   [11]
   Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles - Michael Christol [171]
   Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles - "Serge Salvaille" [21]

  Sep 5:

   Re: E.T., E-Mail Home - Michel M. Deschamps [108]
   Essay Contest - URL Correction - Dennis Stacy [7]
   Re: Alien Rupture - the truth breaks out. - Tim Matthewsm [77]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Staqcy [106]
   Re: Black Helicopters? - Ted Viens [18]
   Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report? - Michael Christol [11]
   Re: Mexico City UFO Footage - Serge Salvaille [5]
   What's That? - Gerry Lovell [33]
   Carolinas A Hot Spot For Saucers - Stig Agermose [84]
   Update On Vandehoof, BC Circles - Paul Anderson [68]
   SETI Scientists Plan To Double-Team Search This - Stig Agermose [92]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Greg St. Pierre
   [16]
   Re: Mexico City UFO Footage - Steven W. Kaeser [5]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Bob Shell [13]
   Re: TNT UFO Special on September 13th - Bob Shell [8]
   Re: E.T., E-Mail Home - Larry Hatch [59]
   Triangular UFOs Also In Dutch Skies - Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. [20]
   Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report? - Steven W. Kaeser [11]
   North Carolina UFO Hot Spot - Stefan Duncan [34]
   Australian UFO Reports & Experiences - Sept '98 - Robert Frola [640]
   UFO Web Sights To Visit In Australia - Diane Harrison [38]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Andy Denne - A.U.R.A.
   [12]
   Nellis, UFO Buffs, War Games And Deadly Crashes - Gerry Lovell [63]
   BWW Media Alert 19980905 - BufoCalvin@aol.com [96]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - James Bond Johnson [95]
   Maree Man - Update - Doc Barry <authority@webtv.net [275]

  Sep 6:

   UFO Seen When Two Japanese Fighters Disappear - Stig Agermose [20]
   Re: UFO Seen When Two Japanese Fighters Disappear - Stig Agermose [34]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - James Bond Jonson [35]
   Barwood No Longer Affiliated With UFO Believers - Stig Agermose [81]
   Re: Barwood No Longer Affiliated With UFO Believers - Frances Emma
   Barwood [43]
   UFO*BC Web Update - UFO*BC [17]
   C-E: Area-51 Crash With Comment - Kenny Young [95]
   UFOR: Inexplicata - The Journal of Hispanic Ufology - Francisco Lopez
   [8]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Bruce Maccabee
   [21]
   Re: Black Helicopters? - Bruce Maccabee [2]
   Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles - Bruce Maccabee [17]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [18]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Michael Christol
   [10]
   Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report? - Michael Christol [15]
   Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles - Michael Christol [4]
   Re: E.T., E-Mail Home - Michel M. Deschamps [42]
   Re: Mexico City UFO Footage - Alex Franz [57]
   Gulf War UFOs Request - David Baker [13]
   Re: TNT UFO Special on September 13th - Keith Stevens [1]
   Re: Mexico City UFO Footage - Josh Goldstein [36]
   Re: Black Helicopters? - Keith Stevens [23]
   Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles - Serge Salvaille [40]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Phot - Jerome Clark [10]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - John [9]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Andy Denne - A.U.R.A.
   [13]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Bob Young [7]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #269 - Alfred Lehmberg [83]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Bob Shell [10]
   Re: Triangular UFOs Also In Dutch Skies - Jeroen Kumeling [31]

  Sep 7:

   Re: Mexico City UFO Footage - Bruce Maccabee [23]
   Re: The Antonio Villas Boas Abduction - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [18]
   Re: Donald E. Keyhoe Journalism Competition - Steven W. Kaeser [20]
   Re: Physical Evidence - Greg St. Pierrre [52]
   Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles - Greg St. Pierrre [45]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 36 - Joseph Trainor [570]
   Re: Mexico City UFO Footage - Steven W. Kaeser [27]
   Forgotten Secret Soviet 'Files'? - Stig Agermose [329]
   Use of "Film" When Referring To Video - Moderator, UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [37]
   NUFOC '98 Draws Nigh - Karl T. Pflock [64]
   Re: Use of "Film" When Referring To Video - Bob Shell [12]
   Re: Use of "Film" When Referring To Video - "Steven W. Kaeser" [9]
   Re: Black Helicopters? - Ted Viens [10]

  Sep 8:

   Re: Mexico City Footage - Reply From VideoMeister - Leanne Martin [40]
   UFO Web Site Links - Stefan Duncan [13]
   Re: Black Helicopters - Steven Mark Ledbrook [15]
   Black Triangle? - Roy Hale [9]
   Clarification To The List Members - Alex Franz [50]
   UFO Sightings Lake Waccamaw, North Carolina - Stefan Duncan [183]
   Ed Fouche Responds To Tim Mathews - Ed Fouche <fouche@connecti.com
   [1470]
   Martin Cannon Interview on #Visitations - Angela Shilling [26]
   Number of Triangles Sighted? - Stefan Duncan [20]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Michael Christol
   [20]
   Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary - Roy Hale [22]
   Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles - Bruce Maccabee [12]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Andy Denne -
   A.U.R.A. [5]
   Aztec 'Crash' [was: Forgotten Secret Soviet - Bruce Maccabee [25]
   Re: Mexico City Footage - Reply From VideoMeister - Bob Shell [19]
   Re: UFO Sightings Lake Waccamaw, North Carolina - Bob Shell [5]
   Re: Mexico City Footage - Reply From VideoMeister - Moderator UFO
   UpDates - Toronto [55]
   Re: Aztec 'Crash' [was: Forgotten Secret Soviet - Steven Kaeser [20]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [97]
   Re: Ed Fouche Responds To Tim Mathews - Tim Matthews [34]

  Sep 9:

   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Phot - Dennis Stacy [4]
   Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture' - Gildas Bourdais [105]
   Bodies at Roswell? [was: Symbols Discovered on - Dennis Stacy [48]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [14]
   Re: UFO Sightings Lake Waccamaw, North Carolina - Jerome Clark [7]
   U.S. Cable Viewers - Mark Your Calendar - On TNT - Doc Barry [30]
   Re: 'Supermassive' Black Hole Found In Center Of - Stig Agermose [67]
   Soviet UFO show on TNT, Sunday, Sept 13 - Scott Carr [14]
   Re: Mexico City Footage - Reply From VideoMeister - Bruce Maccabee [74]
   Re: Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary - "Dr. Virgilio
   Sanchez-Ocejo" [6]
   Michael Wolf's Credentials? - Kathleen Andersen [10]
   Re: Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary - Michael Christol [4]
   An Honorable Man - John Velez [71]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Leanne Martin [16]
   FEMA's Real Mission - Gerry Lovell [63]
   Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs - Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug [18]
   Re: C-E: Area-51 Crash With Comment - Donald Ledger [7]
   Kecksburg - New Documentary Refuels Debate - Ignatius Graffeo [7]
   Re: Clarification To The List Members - Edoardo Russo [12]
   Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture' - Dennis Stacy [24]
   Re: - Jerome Clark [20]
   Re: Aztec 'Crash' - Edoardo Russo [36]
   Mogul Explanation - Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. [30]
   WAMC-NY UFO Radio Show - 09-11-98 - Larry Clark [3]
   Re: Soviet UFO show on TNT, Sunday, Sept 13 - Steven Kaeser [22]
   Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs - Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug [9]
   Re: Bodies at Roswell? - Dennis Stacy [10]
   Re: Michael Wolf's Credentials? - Doc Barry [11]
   Re: FEMA's Real Mission - Steven Kaeser [14]
   Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture' - Tim Matthews [20]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Jerome Clark [20]
   Re: An Honorable Man - Brian Straight [7]

  Sep 10:

   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [40]
   Puerto Rico - Contacts - Max Burns [12]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Kevin Randle [101]
   Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles - Serge Salvaille [51]
   Brookhaven National Labs Alien Crash Site? - Jim Mortellaro [9]
   Re: - James Bond Johnson [15]
   Re: Mogul Explanation - Kevin Randle [9]
   Re: An Honorable Man - Pamela Stonebrooke [9]
   The Kecksburg Files - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - Stig Agermose [215]
   Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs - RobIrving [11]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Rob Irving [34]
   Key to 'Why Lie About Roswell Crash?' - Leanne Martin [47]
   'Out There' Online Talk Show - Stig Agermose [13]
   Brown Mountain Lights? - Doc Landry [58]
   Barwood Defeated - Stig Agermose [48]
   Re: Roswell and 'Alien Rapture' - Kevin Randle [23]
   UFO Landing Cases - Philip Mantle [21]
   New Aircraft Coming In 2 Weeks - Kathleen Andersen [19]
   C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story - Anatoly Kutovoy [285]
   London (UK) UFO Meeting - John Hayes [25]
   Not A UFO, But New Pulsating Safety Lights - Stig Agermose =20 [72]
   Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs - Bob Shell [14]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Jerome Clark [34]
   Re: An Honorable Man - Scott Caput [9]
   Re: Brown Mountain Lights? - Bob Shell [20]
   Re: Brookhaven National Labs Alien Crash Site? - John Velez [32]
   Re: Brookhaven National Labs Alien Crash Site? - Scott Caput [9]
   Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs - David Baker [6]
   Pamela Stonebrooke & Forgotten Questions - John Velez [53]
   Re: Aztec 'Crash' - Bruce Maccabee [6]
   Re: Roswell and 'Alien Rapture' - James Bond Johnson [104]

  Sep 11:

   Re: Michael Wolf's Credentials? - Bruce Maccabee [10]
   Re: New Aircraft Coming In 2 Weeks - GT McCoy [19]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [102]
   Many Witnesses See Large Cylinder In Brazil - Stig Agermose [32]
   Earth Life May Have Originated On Mars... - Stig Agermose [322]
   ... Or On A Dust Grain In Icy Interstellar Space - Stig Agermose [290]
   Re: UFOR Sighting Reports List - Francisco Lopez [12]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [39]
   Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs - Leanne Martin [7]
   Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles? - Leanne Martin [17]
   Re: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story - Leanne Martin
   [11]
   Recent Ardennes UFO Video Online - Stig Agermose [16]
   Re: Michael Wolf's Credentials? - Larry Hatch [14]
   Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs - Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug" [10]
   UK TV Show Is Looking For UFO Info - Philip Mantle [17]
   Jaime Maussan British T.V. Interview - Ian J. Darlington [35]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Steven W. Kaeser [28]
   Randle & Johnson On Roswell [was: Roswell and - Kevin Randle [75]
   Filer's Files #36 - George A. Filer [298]
   Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs - Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug [9]
   Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs - Rob Irving [20]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Jerome Clark [68]
   Re: - UFO UpDates - Toronto [112]

  Sep 12:

   Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs - Rob Irving [28]
   Re: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story - Brian Straight
   [9]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - David Rudiak [831]
   Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs - Rob Irving [4]
   Re: Brown Mountain Lights? - Jerome Clark [8]
   Vanderhoof, BC Circles Update - 09-11-98 - Paul Anderson [132]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [45]
   Re: Jaime Maussan British T.V. Interview - John Hayes [13]
   Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs - Rob Irving [108]
   alt.ufo.reports Archive - Geoff Dittman [7]
   Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture' - Bourdais Gildas [58]
   Sherlock Holmes & the Universe - Brian Cuthbertson [16]
   Re: Randle & Johnson On Roswell - David Rudiak [411]
   Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs - Rob Irving [4]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Kevin Randle [77]
   France Probes UFO Sighting Captured On Videotape - Stig Agermose [39]
   Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs - Bob Thrift - Institute for UFO Research
   [41]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [77]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Bruce Maccabee [340]
   Re: Brown Mountain Lights? - Larry Hatch [44]
   More UFOs Over France - Jeroen Kumeling [27]
   Einstein's Gravitational Theories To Be Revised? - Stig Agermose [56]
   Sighting Report - UFO UpDates - Toronto [49]

  Sep 13:

   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Jean-Luc Rivera [11]
   Re: Brown Mountain Lights - Doc Landry [13]
   Re: Brown Mountain Lights? - Bob Shell [5]
   Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs - Bob Shell [16]
   Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs - Keith Stevens [13]
   Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture' - Jim Deardorff [21]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #270 - Alfred Lehmberg [97]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [39]
   Re: Brown Mountain Lights? - Greg St. Pierre [9]
   RAF Feltwell - UFO Trackers? - Gerry Lovell [45]
   Chat with Bob Dean - "Yvonne Hedenland" [25]
   Voreppe UFO Video, French Press Coverage - Sean Jones [38]
   'Pulsar' Newsletter - Issue No. 1 - James Easton [575]
   BWW Media Alert 19980913 - BufoCalvin@aol.com [132]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Jerome Clark [88]
   Area 51, Little A'Le'Inn & Glenn Campbel - Gerry Lovell [264]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [52]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [84]
   Re: Brown Mountain Lights - Michael Christol [7]
   KGB Files Show - Greg St. Pierre [23]
   Re: Vanderhoof, BC Circles Update - 09-11-98 - Leanne Martin [21]
   UFO Video Technique - Alex Franz [51]

  Sep 14:

   Re: Brown Mountain Lights? - Larry Hatch [20]
   Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture' - Scott Carr [28]
   Keith Basterfield Home Page - Diane Harrison [10]
   Re: Brown Mountain Lights - Stefan Duncan [15]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Doc Barry authority@webtv.net> [10]
   Re: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kirgizstan - The Real story - Anatoly Kutovoy
   [12]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 37 - Joseph Trainor [594]
   Re: Who is Nelson Marcel [was: Symbols Discovered] - Kevin Randle [17]
   Re: UFO Video Technique - Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug [21]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Kevin Randle [41]
   -[For The Record]- P-1947: Cabell on Flying Saucers - Jan Aldrich [36]
   -[For The Record]- P-1947: The Beaver Falls, Pa - Stan Gordon [35]
   -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Greg Long [143]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Steven Kaeser [18]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Nick Balaskas [31]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Scott Carr [25]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Dennis Stacy [5]
   Fortean Times - No. 114 - Editorial - Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [97]
   -[For The Record]- C-E: Sturrock Panel on NPR - .ra - Bobby & Peggy
   Richardson [6]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Kevin Randle [143]
   Re: Shaitan Mazar, Kirgizstan - The Real Story - Andy Denne - A.U.R.A.
   [13]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - bruce maccabee [3]
   Re: UK TV Show Is Looking For UFO Info - Bruce Maccabee [2]
   CSICOP's Response to TNT's KGB UFO Files - Geoff Dittman [411]
   Re: Jaime Maussan British T.V. Interview - Bruce Maccabee [4]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Greg Sandow [36]
   Re: Brown Mountain Lights - Leanne Martin [17]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Doc Barry [11]
   Re: UFO Video Technique - Alex Franz [49]

  Sep 15:

   CNN's John Holliman Dies In Car Crash - UFO UpDates - Toronto [42]
   Re: UFO Video Technique - Bruce Maccabee [7]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Greg St. Pierre [12]
   Jeff Rense's Show Pulls Numbers - Skye Turell [110]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Kerry Ferrand [20]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Leanne Martin [12]
   Re: UFO Video Technique - Leanne Martin [14]
   Re: CNN's John Holliman - UFO UpDates - Toronto [48]
   Jodrell Bank Hunts For Alien Radio Signals - Sue Kovios [39]
   Re: UFO Video Technique - Cheyne Conrad [14]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug [55]
   'Sightings On The Radio' - Yukon Report - Bill Oliver [4]
   Re: Jodrell Bank Hunts For Alien Radio Signals - Doc Barry [20]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Steven Kaeser [11]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Marie Ivey [11]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Serge Salvaille [7]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Michel M. Deschamps
   [49]
   Re: Jeff Rense's Show Pulls Numbers - John Velez [17]
   Re: Rocky Raccoon as Alien - Dennis Stacy [14]
   China Lake & Flying Disc Construction - Tim Matthews [14]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Steven Kaeser [39]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - "Jerome Clark" [63]
   Re: Jaime Maussan British T.V. Interview - Ian J. Darlington [12]

  Sep 16:

   Re: Jeff Rense's Show Pulls Numbers - Bill Oliver [2]
   Angel Hair? Crop Circles? - Richard Goldsmith [31]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Mark Rozela [30]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [14]
   Re: KGB Files Show - James Mortellaro [7]
   Re: Rocky Raccoon as Alien - John Velez [44]
   Who is Nelson Marcel? [was: Symbols Discovered on - David Rudiak [24]
   Need To Ask And Tell - Alex Franz [26]
   Re: UFO Video Technique - Bruce Maccabee [4]
   DISPATCH # 103 -- the weekly newsletter of - ParaScope@AOL.COM [87]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Bruce Maccabee [16]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Kerry Ferrand [11]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis tacy [10]
   Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs - Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug [9]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Steven Kaeser [6]

  Sep 17:

   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Jerome Clark [9]
   Re: Who is Nelson Marcel? - Dennis Stacy [28]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: The Beaver Falls, PA - Bob Young [18]
   Re: Brown Mountain Lights - Keith Stevens [11]
   Re: Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary - Francisco Lopez [18]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Bourdais Gildas [27]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Jeff Westover [8]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Jim Mortellaro [20]
   Re: UK TV Show Is Looking For UFO Info - Keith Stevens [9]
   A Research Question - Scott Carr [13]
   Re: UFO Video Technique - John Velez [48]
   UFO KGB Files Webpage - Evaluation Of TNT Program - Alex Hefman [5]
   CSETI Assumes 'The Position' - Francisco Lopez [363]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Bruce Maccabee [29]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Bruce Maccabee [34]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - David Rudiak [10]
   Exploring The Moon's Atmosphere - Stig Agermose [45]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Leanne Martin [13]
   Discovery Of Water Would Open Moon To Development - Stig Agermose [140]
   Strange Object In Schalksrust, South Africa - Stig Agermose [22]
   ELFIS ISSUE 6 part 2 - Stephen MILES Lewis [42]
   'Landing' In Tanrow, Poland? - Stig Agermose [15]
   UFO In New Hampshire, US, Last Week - Greg St. Pierre [40]
   ELFIS ISSUE 6 part 1 - Stephen MILES Lewis [72]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - David Rudiak [335]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Serge Salvaille [35]
   Satellite Rocket Crash - Sean Jones [10]
   Re: UFO Video Technique - Leanne Martin [17]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis [222]
   More On Alleged Tanrow - Poland - Landing - Stig Agermose [20]
   Rense, Lindemann & Alford - Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto [13]
   Re: UK TV Show Is Looking For UFO Info - John Rimmer [11]
   Re: UFO KGB Files Webpage - Evaluation Of TNT - Alfred Lehmberg [17]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Steven W. Kaeser [23]
   Re: More On Alleged Tanrow - Poland - Landing - Andy Denne - A.U.R.A.
   [6]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Doc Barry [15]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug [29]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Jerome Clark [8]
   Sighting Report - Redcliffe, Brisbane, Australia - Diane Harrison [25]
   Re: A Research Question - Bruce Maccabee [1]
   UFO Magazine [US] Website - Don Ecker [13]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Dennis Stacy [36]
   Re: CSETI Assumes 'The Position' - John Velez [53]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. [8]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Bruce Maccabee [22]

  Sep 18:

   Re: Brown Mountain Lights - Leanne Martin [24]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Susan Baldwin [4]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis [21]
   Re: Operational Readiness - CSETI Position Paper - James Mortellaro
   [26]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Leanne Martin [4]
   Re: Filer's Files #37 - George A. Filer [418]
   Re: UFO Magazine [US] Website - Steven W. Kaeser [25]
   Re: A Research Question - Scott Carr [7]
   NASA's Goldin On John Holliman - NASANews@hq.nasa.gov [34]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - James Easton [67]
   NASA Regains Control Of Soho Spacecraft - NASANews@hq.nasa.gov [81]
   Re: A Research Question - GT Mccoy [5]
   Re: CSETI Assumes 'The Position' - Bob Thrift - Institute for UFO
   Research [22]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [13]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [51]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [53]
   Re: Brown Mountain Lights/Lumonous Owls - Andy Roberts [15]
   Re: Review - Friedman Lecture, Brisbane, Oz, - Allan Clayton [39]
   Re: A Research Question - David Rudiak [21]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - David Rudiak [140]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - David Rudiak [341]

  Sep 19:

   Re: A Research Question - Alex Franz [82]
   Re: UFO Magazine [US] Website - Don Ecker [35]
   Re: A Research Question - Donald Ledger [5]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Steven W. Kaeser [37]
   Re: CSETI Assumes 'The Position' - John Velez [56]
   Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al - Dennis Stacy [214]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Karl T. Pflock
   Ktperehwon@aol.com [24]

  Sep 20:

   Re: Brown Mountain Lights - Keith Stevens [36]
   Re: A Research Question - Greg Sandow [6]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - bourdais gildas [27]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Stanton Friedman [26]
   Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al - Dennis Stacy [165]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Robert Todd [304]
   New UFO Documentary - Paul Williams [39]
   Re: A Research Question - Ted Viens [17]
   Re: Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary - Roy Hale [19]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #271 - Alfred Lehmberg [71]
   The Sky _Is_ Falling - Doc Barry [51]
   BWW Media Alert 19980919 - Bufo Calvin [98]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Bruce Maccabee [17]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Bruce Maccabee [11]
   Beautiful UFO Rendering - Kenny Young [14]
   -[For The Record]- P-1947: The Nuclear Connection - slk [7]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Jim Mortellaro [21]
   -[For The Record]- P-1947: The Term 'Grey' - Jerome Clark [9]
   Re: A Research Question - Bruce Maccabee [12]
   New Information About Flying Discs - Tim Matthews [49]
   Re: CSETI Assumes 'The Position' - Ralf Zeigermann [12]
   Re: New UFO Documentary - Jeff Rense [10]
   Re: New UFO Documentary - Ralf Zeigermann [4]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: The Term 'Grey' - Ralf Zeigermann [6]
   Keyhoe Award Submissions Sought - Steven W. Kaeser [22]
   Internet Confusion Causes Problems for FUFOR - Steven W. Kaeser [21]
   Argentinian UFOs - Carlos Roselli [18]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Jerome Clark [69]

  Sep 21:

   Real and Apparent Size? - Tinus de Beer [10]
   Voreppe - Confirmed A Balloon - Bourdais Gildas [31]
   The UFO Phenomenon CD ROM - Sean Jones [31]
   KGB-UFO Footage Request - Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. [15]
   Barry Greenwood's UFO Historical Review - Jim Klotz [27]
   KGB UFO Files - Another Film Stock Fraud? - 'Roger' [44]
   Chat with Vince DiPietro - Yvonne Hedenland [28]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [8]
   TNT-Special - Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. [14]
   Strange Object Over Schalksrust, South Africa - Maurice Kellett [49]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Robert Todd [12]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Dennis [73]
   Re: TNT-Special - Steven Kaeser [3]
   Re: KGB UFO Files - Another Film Stock Fraud? - neil morris [26]
   Re: Real and Apparent Size? - Mark Cashman [20]
   Re: KGB UFO Files - Another Film Stock Fraud? - Steven Kaeser [6]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Jerome Clark [14]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Bruce Lanier Wright [2]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 38 - Joseph Trainor [444]
   Re: Real and Apparent Size? - Larry Hatch [39]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Bourdais Gildas [5]
   Re: TNT-Special - Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. [11]
   Re: Strange Object Over Schalksrust, South Africa - Greg St. Pierre
   [16]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Phot - Andy Denne - A.U.R.A.
   [19]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Bruce Maccabee [19]
   Re: Real and Apparent Size? - Bruce Maccabee [53]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [91]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Alfred Lehmberg [17]
   Re: TNT-Special - Michael Christol [5]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis [14]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Bruce Lanier Wright [4]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Stan Friedman [36]

  Sep 22:

   Re: Real and Apparent Size? - Bob Thrift - Institute for UFO Research
   [34]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - David Rudiak [60]
   Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al - David Rudiak [259]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Tim Matthews [8]
   Re: HOT GOSSIP UK - SEPT '98 - Georgina Bruni [104]
   -[For The Record]- P-1947: Beaver County, - Mark Cashman [20]
   Roswell AFB 'Smoking Gun' Telegram Read? - James Bond Johnson [19]
   BBC TV Interested In UK Skywatchers - Philip Mantle [15]
   Re: Roswell AFB 'Smoking Gun' Telegram Read? - Donald Waldrop [11]
   Re: A Research Question - Bob Young [25]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Karl T. Pflock [10]
   Re: Strange Object Over Schalksrust, South Africa - Maurice Kellett
   [21]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Keith Stevens [69]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [37]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Bruce Maccabee [56]
   Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al - Dennis Stacy [100]

  Sep 23:

   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - David Rudiak [27]
   Re: Roswell AFB 'Smoking Gun' Telegram Read? - Kevin Randle [13]

  Sep 22:

   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Greg Sandow [18]

  Sep 23:

   IUFOG/PROJECT 1947 Website Back! - Jan Aldrich [6]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [13]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Dennis Stacy [14]
   CIA Dirty Secrets? Why, I'm SHOCKED! SHOCKED!! - Doc Barry
   authority@webtv.net [66]
   A Russian's view of KGB UFO Files - Karen Guetzow [4]
   Re: UFO KGB Files Webpage - Evaluation Of TNT - Leanne Martin [40]
   Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al - David Rudiak [84]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - James Bond Johnson
   [14]

  Sep 24:

   Re: Roswell AFB 'Smoking Gun' Telegram Read? - Neil Morris [8]
   Re: A Research Question - Bruce Maccabee [7]
   Re: University's UFO Degree - Sean Jones [11]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Keith Stevens [34]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - David Rudiak [35]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Tim Matthews [8]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Robert Todd [134]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - David Rudiak [52]
   Re: KGB UFO Files - Another Film Stock Fraud? - Roger Evans [28]
   MAGONIA ETH Bulletin #7 - Mark Pilkington [251]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Dennis Stacy [64]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Bruce Maccabee [49]
   FOCUS Magazine UK - Roy Hale [43]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Greg Sandow [50]
   Re: KGB Files Show - A. J. Gevaerd [24]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Bruce Maccabee [11]
   Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets - James Bond Johnson [31]
   The Fort Worth Photographs - Neil Morris [21]
   UFOR: Oberg's Open Letter To CSETI - Francisco Lopez [62]

  Sep 25:

   Chat with Jeroen Wierda and Philippe Piet van - Yvonne Hedenland [26]
   Re: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets - Steven W. Kaeser [5]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Dennis Stacy [37]
   Re: Angel Hair Cases On The Rise? - Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug [10]
   Re: University's UFO Degree - John Hayes [84]
   Re: Mars Surveyor To Tighten Orbit - Steven L. Wilson Sr [30]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Stan Friedman [11]
   Double Pleasure In Planet Quest - Stig Agermose [123]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswel - Leanne Martin [8]
   More On Ramey Photo & Note - Nick Balaskas [71]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Leanne Martin [16]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Dennis [76]
   Filer's Files #38 - George A. Filer [293]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Leanne Martin [18]
   Re: The Fort Worth Photographs - Leanne Martin [10]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Stan Friedman [21]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Greg Sandow [96]
   Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk - Roger Evans [85]
   Re: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets - Kevin Randle [11]
   Re: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets - Kevin Randle [24]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Jerome Clark [14]
   Roswell Reward [was: Symbols Discovered on - Bob Young [58]
   Re: FOCUS Magazine UK - Jan Aldrich [30]
   Re: KGB UFO Files - Another Film Stock Fraud? - Bob Young [29]
   Re: The Fort Worth Photographs - Joel Henry [13]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Kevin Randle [65]
   Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk - Neil Morris [20]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Jerome Clark [29]
   Re: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets - James Bond Johnson
   [32]

  Sep 26:

   Salon Magazine Article - UFO UpDates - Toronto [201]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Greg Sandow [54]
   Re: More On Ramey Photo & Note - James S. Mortellaro [21]
   ELFIS ISSUE 6 part 3 - Stephen MILES Lewis [48]
   Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk - Roger Evans [52]
   Re: Salon Magazine Article - Bruce Maccabee [22]
   Re: Salon Magazine Article - GT Mccoy [24]
   Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk - Michel M. Deschamps [59]
   Russian Ufologists? - Philippe Piet van Putten [16]
   Old VTOL Aircraft and 'Saucers'? - Philippe Piet van Putten [14]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #272 - Alfred Lehmberg [56]
   Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo - Robert Todd [88]
   Re: Roswell Reward - bourdais gildas [28]
   Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk - Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. [22]

  Sep 27:

   Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk - Stephen Lewis [48]
   Re: KGB Crashed Disc - Jim Mortellaro [64]
   Re: Salon Magazine Article - Jerome Clark [11]
   Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk - Steven Kaeser [59]
   Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk - Roger Evans [103]
   Info Needed on 1967 Sudan Incident - Doc Barry [16]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - David Rudiak [101]
   Re: Salon Magazine Article - Larry Hatch [31]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Dennis Stacy [140]
   Re: Roswell Reward - Robert Todd [87]
   Throw A Stone Anywhere... - Melanie Mecca [81]
   Re: Old VTOL Aircraft and 'Saucers'? - Dave Everett [6]
   Kal Korff Receives Russian UFO Fragments in TNT - Kal K. Korff [56]
   David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings - Kal K. Korff [102]
   Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk - Neil Morris [8]
   Re: Salon Magazine Article - Jerome Clark [13]
   Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk - Roger Evans [68]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Jerome Clark [48]
   Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings - Alfred Lehmberg [54]
   Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings - Serge Salvaille [4]
   Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings - Jerome Clark [78]
   Sighting Near Pine Gap, Oz - Diane Harrison [95]
   UFO KGB Files Independent Evaluation - Alex Hefman [4]
   UFO Desk Web Site - Paul Williams [16]
   Chat with Charles Emmons, Ph.D. - Yvonne Hedenland [25]
   Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell - Dennis [21]
   Re: Salon Magazine Article - Dennis [16]
   Re: Roswell Reward - Bourdais Gildas [23]
   'Rudiak On Roswell' - Lorenzo Kimball Responds - Dennis Stacy [252]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 39 - Joseph Trainor [451]

  Sep 28:

   Re: KGB Crashed Disc - Leanne Martin [19]
   Jim Moseley & Hurricane Georges - Karl T. Pflock [11]
   Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings - Mark Cashman [49]
   Re: Throw A Stone Anywhere... - John Velez [27]
   Re: More On Ramey Photo & Note - Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug [39]
   Re: BWW Media Alert 19980928 - Bufo Calvin [60]
   Re: More On Ramey Photo - James Bond Johnson [25]
   Re: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets - Stan Friedman [3]
   Re: KGB Crashed Disc - Steven Kaeser [13]
   Voreppe UFO - Joachim Koch [7]
   How To Hold A Scalpel And Scissors - Joachim Koch [9]
   Re: KGB Crashed Disc - "A.U.R.A." [9]
   Re: 'Rudiak On Roswell' - Lorenzo Kimball Responds - David Rudiak [373]
   Re: 'Rudiak On Roswell' - Lorenzo Kimball Responds - Bourdais Gildas
   [18]

  Sep 29:

   Re: Info Needed on 1967 Sudan Incident - Nick Balaskas [14]
   Snipers & Shooters - Roger Evans [84]
   8th Annual International UFO Congress - Doc Barry [66]
   Exchanging UFO-related Web Links - Stefan Duncan [14]
   Making Money With UFOs - Doc Barry [18]
   MIB Abduction? - Robert Earle [32]
   Re: More On Ramey Photo - Jim Mortellaro [12]
   Re: Salon Magazine Article - Bruce Maccabee [2]
   Re: How To Hold A Scalpel And Scissors - Bob Shell [6]
   Re: KGB Crashed Disc - Leanne Martin [29]
   Re: KGB Crashed Disc - UFO UpDates - Toronto [18]
   For Collectors Of 'Alien' Art-effects - Moderator, UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [8]
   Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk - Bob Shell [34]
   Screening and Discussion w/Budd Hopkins - John Velez [80]
   Re: Snipers & Shooters - Jim Mortellaro [35]
   Re: Rudiak On Roswell' - Lorenzo Kimball Responds - Dennis Stacy [12]
   Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings - Greg Sandow [34]
   Re: MIB Abduction? - Jerome Clark [13]
   Re: KGB Crashed Disc - Steven Kaeser [53]
   Re: DISPATCH # 104 -- the weekly newsletter of - ParaScope@AOL.COM
   [134]

  Sep 30:

   Re: Screening and Discussion w/Budd Hopkins - Jerome Clark [7]
   Re: Snipers & Shooters - jerry anderson [14]
   Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings - Robert Todd [28]
   Re: Voreppe UFO - Bourdais Gildas [45]
   Re: 'Rudiak On Roswell' - Lorenzo Kimball Respond - John Rimmer [4]
   Re: KGB Crashed Disc - Jim Mortellaro [12]
   Re: MIB Abduction? - Greg Sandow [33]
   Re: MIB Abduction? - Ivo Westerlaken [11]
   Re: Snipers & Shooters - Moderator UFO UFO UpDates - Toronto [44]
   Re: Snipers & Shooters - Greg St. Pierre [23]
   Re: Snipers & Shooters - Nancy White [18]
   Re: KGB Files Show - Nick Balaskas [28]
   Not 'Links' But People Facts - Leanne Martin [29]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 1

                         Earth Microbes On The Moon

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 02:04:44 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 07:41:10 -0400
Subject: Earth Microbes On The Moon


Excerpt of NASA news. The page is impossible to render in
txt-format, but this is the URL

http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast01sep98_1.htm

Stig

*******

Earth microbes on the moon=BF

Three decades after Apollo 12, a remarkable colony of lunar
survivors revisited

September 1, 1998: For a human, unprotected space travel is a
short trip measured in seconds.


What could be worse for would-be space travelers than a
catastrophic breach in their protective spacesuits, the
high-tech, multilayered fabric blanket that balloons under the
pressure of a life-saving flow of oxygen and insulates against
the frozen harshness of deep-space vacuum?

But for some kinds of microbes, the harshness of space travel is
not unlike their everyday stressful existence, the successful
execution of ingenious survival tricks learned over billions of
years of Earth-bound evolution.

(Click the image at right for a synopsis (below) of astrobiology
at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center.)


Forthcoming anniversary


Space historians will recall that the journey to the stars has
more than one life form on its passenger list: the names of a
dozen Apollo astronauts who walked on the moon and one
inadvertent stowaway, a common bacteria, Streptococcus mitis,
the only known survivor of unprotected space travel. As Marshall
astronomers and biologists met recently to discuss biological
limits to life on Earth, the question of how an Earth bacteria
could survive in a vacuum without nutrients, water and radiation
protection was less speculative than might first be imagined. A
little more than a month before the forthcoming millennium
celebration,=BFNASA will mark without fanfare the thirty year
anniversary of documenting a microbe's first successful journey
from Earth.


Apollo 12 remembered


In 1991, as Apollo 12 Commander Pete Conrad reviewed the
transcripts of his conversations relayed from the moon back to
Earth, the significance of the only known microbial survivor of
harsh interplanetary travel struck him as profound:

"I always thought the most significant thing that we ever
found=BFon the whole...Moon was that little bacteria who came back
and lived and nobody ever said [anything] about it."=BF

(Left: Astronaut Pete Conrad (photographed by crew mate Alan
Bean) inspects Surveyor 3's camera assembly. Surveyor 3 landed
on the moon on April 20, 1967, at 2.94=95 S, 23.34=95 W in Oceanus
Procellarum.On Nov. 12, 1969, Conrad and Bean piloted the Apollo
12 Lunar Module (background) to a landing 156 m (512 ft) away.)

Although the space-faring microbe was described in a 1970
Newsweek article, along with features in Sky and Telescope and
Aviation Week and Space Technology, the significance of a living
organism surviving for nearly three years in the harsh lunar
environment may only now be placed in perspective, after three
decades of the biological revolution in understanding life and
its favored conditions. As the lunar voyagers answered a similar
question more than a century ago, in Jules Verne's classic, From
the Earth to the Moon: "To those who maintain that the planets
are not inhabited one may reply:=BFYou might be perfectly in the
right, if you could only show that the earth is the best
possible world."=BF

The remarkable lunar survivor from Apollo 12 thus gives
scientific pause.


Three decades, the biological revolution


To a biologist, freeze-drying microbes for harsh space travel
conjures up rather mundane kitchen science, a simple reenactment
of how a yeast packet taken from the freezer can make bread
dough rise prior to baking. But to a new breed of biologist
exploring the harshest conditions on Earth, how a delicate
microbe manages to counteract vacuum, boiling temperatures,
burning radiation, and crushing pressures deep in the frozen
icecaps is the study of life itself.=BF

For example, only now after 30 years of biological progress can
scientists begin to scan down the genetic script underlying the
causes of malaria, syphilis, cholera and tuberculosis. Within a
few years, it is estimated that 50 to 100 complete genomes of
living organisms will be entirely deciphered, presenting the
first opportunities for deep evolutionary comparisons and
insights into exactly the remarkable means by which the common
Strep. bacteria could revive itself after 2.6 years on the moon.

(Left: Interior view of Surveyor 3 TV camera; surviving
microorganisms cultured from the polyurethane foam insulation (1
mL) covering the circuit boards (upper left).)







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 1

                     Mars Ship May Also Be Crew Quarters

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 02:40:48 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 07:43:43 -0400
Subject: Mars Ship May Also Be Crew Quarters


Source: AP via Popular Science magazine

http://www.popsci.com/news/08241998.mars_sleeper.html

Stig

*******

August 23, 12:01 EDT


Mars Ship May Also Be Crew Quarters
by Marcia Dunn

AP Aerospace Writer


SPACE CENTER, Houston (AP)  - Astronauts aboard NASA's future
space station may find themselves eating, sleeping, exercising
and unwinding inside a balloon, rather than a can.

Space station managers expect to decide by the end of September
whether to replace the aluminum cylinder that's known as the
habitation module with a larger yet lighter inflatable chamber
designed for Mars trips.

It's called Transhab, short for transit habitat.

This huge pop-proof balloon, folded for launch and filled with
air in space, is envisioned by NASA as Home Sweet Home for
astronauts journeying to and from Mars. Similar balloons sent in
advance would house the crews once they land.

NASA figures if Transhab is feasible for Mars or possibly an
asteroid, then why not for the international space station, due
to begin soaring by year's end? And what better way to further
interplanetary travel than to tack on a Mars ship to the
orbiting laboratory, giving both programs a plug?

"Anything that we can do that excites people and makes it more
real to them, the better the chances overall" of sending
astronauts beyond Earth orbit, says Doug Cooke, head of the
explorations office at Johnson Space Center.

With sufficient funding, NASA could launch a Mars expedition as
early as 2012, Cooke says. The agency would be a step closer to
that goal, he notes, by testing Transhab on the international
space station.

If Transhab is approved for the mostly metal space station being
built by Boeing, construction likely would begin at Johnson in
2001. A space shuttle would carry Transhab up in early 2004,
making it the last piece of the station to fly.

It would cost about the same as the original, still-incomplete
habitation module - less than $200 million - but provide three
times more room, according to Transhab deputy project manager
Horacio de la Fuente.

Astronauts have helped de la Fuente develop a rudimentary
three-level mockup, which is on display at Johnson, and a
winning floor plan.

Among the frills: Cathedral ceilings. Picture windows. Penthouse
gym. Kitchenette with a table that can seat 12. Six bedrooms
equipped with desks and personal computers and surrounded by a
2-inch-thick wall of water to shield against noise and surges in
radiation. And, of course, storage galore.

Never mind that all this luxury would be in a balloon that would
be in an Earth orbit littered with dangerous space junk.

The 1-foot-thick shell would be "bulletproof" in space, de la
Fuente says. The 17 or so layers would be made of ceramic
fabric, polyurethane foam, polymer film and Kevlar, a tough
material used in police vests, and be better than metal.

"This is very different from a child's balloon," de la Fuente
explains as he shows off samples of padding. "This is much more
like a football. You can drive a nail into a football and it
doesn't just pop."

Like a football, the 40-foot-long, 27-foot-diameter Transhab
would have a bladder system that holds in the air. The shell
encompassing Transhab would have three bladders, in fact, for
redundancy.

Outside these thin-film bladders would be Kevlar webbing and
then sheets of ceramic fabric, each separated by 3 inches of
foam. It's this ceramic, called Nextel, that would protect
against micrometeoroids and other orbital clutter zooming by at
tens of thousands mph.

In ground tests, aluminum marble-sized balls fired into the
Transhab padding at orbital speed were pulverized by the outer
ceramic layers before reaching the air-containing bladders.

Even skeptics were impressed.

"Once they see our micrometeoroid and orbital debris shots ...
they begin to realize, 'Hey, this isn't a bad thing at all,' "
de la Fuente says.

"You also have to remember that the aluminum (space station)
module is a balloon, too. Any pressure vessel is truly a
balloon. Just because it's made out of aluminum you still get
the same pressure stresses."

Indeed, when identical balls were shot at 1 1/2 -inch-thick
aluminum plates, 3-inch-wide craters emerged and the shock waves
ripped chunks of metal off the back of the plates.

If fired at the reinforced aluminum plates intended for the bulk
of the international space station, the balls would penetrate
the skin, de la Fuente says.

Even in a nightmare case like last summer's near-catastrophic
collision between a Russian cargo ship and Mir, astronauts and
cosmonauts would be "much safer" in Transhab because of all the
protective padding, de la Fuente says.

"I would feel much safer if I was in there," he says.

Unfortunately, NASA cannot use the ultrathick Transhab padding
on the conventional aluminum modules that will make up the rest
of the international space station, de la Fuente says. The
cylinders barely fit into the shuttle cargo bay; another foot of
insulation on either side would make them too wide.

That's the beauty of Transhab, de la Fuente says.

It's relatively lightweight -- only about 26,000 pounds -- and
can be folded for launch. So more of it can soar.

Astronauts would have three levels instead of one in which to
spend their off-duty time, providing a homier touch as well as
additional privacy. What's more, an opening between the first
and second floors would create the sense of open space.

All that's missing is a color scheme.

Astronaut Andrew Thomas, who returned from a 4 1/2 -month Mir
tour in June, would choose blue.

"The colors inside Mir tended to be browns and grays," Thomas
says. "You need to have bright, uplifting colors rather than
these dull shades."


Popular Science is now available on America Online. Keyword:
POPSCI

www.popsci.com - The official Web site of Popular Science
Magazine. Copyright (c) 1998 Popular Science, a division of
Times Mirror Magazines.






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                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:34:47 PDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 08:00:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage


Dear List,

I agree that the Mexico footage is more than likely a hoax but I put
this to those who may know . . .

Given that that this footage appears to have been shot on a camera
that uses a CCD imager to record, and this CCD imager is a grid array
of vertical and horizontal receptors, is it not possible that the
changes noted in the vertical and horizontal edges of buildings are a
direct result of the image movement across the receptor boundaries?

Also, would it not stand that as the UFO was being tracked by the CCD
that its edges would not show any similar changes being a curved
shape- especially as they would not align with any vertival or
horizontal part of grid?

Has anyone done the obvious and tried to shoot a comparative bit of
footage in that location, or similar, to see if the same effects are
reproducible?

Regards,
Leanne Martin
Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia







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                     Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint

From: dledger@ns.sympatico.ca (Donald  Ledger)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 00:20:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 08:05:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint


>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:09:35 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint

>>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:42:16 +0100
>>From: dledger@ns.sympatico.ca (Donald Ledger)
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint

><snip>

>>I had a little trouble with this reasoning myself when I read it
>>and this is not the first time this subject has cropped up. Your
>>analogy of the policeman is a good one. If push came to shove on
>>crime in progress, particularly a violent one, I'd much rather
>>have the testimony of the policeman than an inexperienced
>>civilian. You want the criminal put away.

>While I would tend to agree, your unstated assumption is that
>the policeman has greater training and ability in the art of
>observation, and/or that his opinion would carry greater weight
>in the legal system because of his chosen profession. This is
>probably not always the case, but usually true.

The police themselves will tell you that for the most part the
typical witness is usually unreliable, particularly in a
situation where there is a great deal of stress and excitement.
This of course would hold true with UFO sightings. The police
are put into situations during training where they are expected
to notice certain things during the test in order to sharpen
their observation skills. As a pilot you are continously
bombarded with information during your training while flying and
you have to get it right, particularly during the takeoff and
land phase or in the circut [pattern in the US]. These tests
sharpen your observations skills both for inside and outside of
the aircraft.

As a UFO researcher we are constantly reading forms, or
documents, or testimony about sightings which I am sure has to
lead to greater observation skills than the average citizen and
perhaps even a police officer. That's not to say all
researchers.

>>Why not the same with an experienced UFO researcher, who in many
>>cases might know exactly what to look for through experience and
>>probably because s/he had often wished the witness of some UFO
>>sighting in the past had done certain things.

>>What if Hynek, James MacDonald, Wilbert Smith or Jacques Vallee,
>>for example, had had a good sighting? Would we trash it simply
>>because they were and are experienced UFO investigators.

>>I had a good sighting last November in BC and I had two areas of
>>experience to bring to the sighting. Experience as a UFO
>>investigator and many more years as a pilot. I hate to think I
>>was disregarded as a witness because of the former experience.

>>Don Ledger

>I think that your sighting would be of interest to most of us
>here, but there are some who would probably take your apparent
>beliefs into account as they review any evidence you submit.
>This would be a shame since you would indeed bring a perspective
>to that observation that would be invaluable.

Yes but would we not argue that point with those who would
consider these "beliefs" of ours [to be honest with you, I hold
no firm beliefs in this area] as biased and therefore
unreliable. I think I would use the arguments we've been
discussing in my defence. Having said that, I've seen RCMP UFO
documents, for instance, that have stated that the observer in
question is very interested in UFOs or a UFO nut and therefore
infers that the witness is unreliable.

>On the other hand, I can think of a few researchers that I >
wouldn't feel the same way about, so I don't think the issue is
>all that simple.

Sure, we all know some and I don't disagree with you, but again
as in everything else in this field, it's an uphill struggle for
some degree of legitimacy.

>If a researcher wishes to pursue this as a full
>time profession, then their ability to view the genre from an
>independant position becomes more questionable. Their research
>could be solid, but the appearance of a possible bias might
>impact how others view it.

>Steve

It might also be dependent upon how many letters the person has
after their name or community standing etc. For the time being,
and this is what I was referring to originally, I'd like to
think that our peers in this field would be less inclined to
blow off a researcher's sighting as a beginning to some
legitimacy in the general population. For the most part we know
how much we can trust the observations of those in the UFO
research community and the "newbies' will have to earn their
spurs so to speak.

Don






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                    Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 21:10:00 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 07:50:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?


>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:26:39 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?

>I think it has been noted that the U.S. was aware of the
>possibility that Pakistan was capable of creating a nuclear
>weapon prior to the "test", which resulted from our watching the
>flow of various components into Pakistan from other countries
>(most notably North Korea).


Steve,

I agree that US intelligence had some idea that India and
Pakistan were poking around with the big A, but they sure acted
surprised when they lit one up.

I simply believe that with all the problems in the world today
and the new enemies the US is creating lately, satellites have
(or should have) more important things to do than draw pictures
in English crops. In fact, seems like the Communist Party has
been smacking their chops lately at the thought of gaining back
some control in Russia. I'd sure like to know what's going on
there behind the scenes if I were a member of the US
intelligence community.

Anyway, as you indicated, there doesn't seem to be any evidence
that satellites are capable of producing the phenomenon. There
is at least a small amount, however, to suggest a connection to
UFOs, whatever they turn out to be.

Greg






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                     Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 00:16:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 08:09:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint


>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint
>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:42:20 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto >updates@globalserve.net>

>I think we all know, really, what was being raised by Scott in
>his original posting. That is, the researcher who claims to have
>seen UFOs again and again and again, and who, when placed under
>scrutiny, turns out to be almost as imaginative as the strawman
>raised by debunkers as their model of the UFO witness. Yes,
>there are some people like that in the Ufological community, and
>it is a problem. (Oddly, Scott's website seems to give credence
>to Dr. Bruce Cornet, who falls almost perfectly into this
>profile).

I agree 100% that Dr. Cornet falls into this category. One of of
my primary interests in FSG is in the investigation of the
culture that has developed around the UFO phenomenon.
Specifically, Pine Bush, and the sociology of the skywachers
there, has been a primary focus.

Bruce Cornet is inarguably a key proponent of the Pine Bush
skywatching scene, and in the pages of FSG I have spent
considerable time reviewing his research and analyzing his role
in this sociology- I'm fascinated by how the UFO phenomenon has
affected him (and many others) sociologically. But I have NEVER
endorsed his claims, his wild beliefs, or his many, many alleged
sightings and experiences. My review of his work, while
extensive, has often been quite scathing and always logical. Dr.
Cornet himself is quite aware of my position on his work, and
has maintained an amicable relationship with me and my
publication (All things considered, he is a very decent and nice
guy.) While I happily published his article on his remembrance
of sociology of the Pine Bush skywatchers, I will state for the
record that I remain highly skeptical of his fieldwork.

I sincerely hope that my point has not been lost or
misrepresented. FSG prides itself on its common sense approach
to ufology and the sociology of the UFO culture. I sincerely
believe that it is just as important to look at the researcher,
as it is to look at the research.

Sincerely,

-Scott C. Carr
Editor, The flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY








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                     Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint

From: Gre St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 21:46:47 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 07:58:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint


>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:42:16 +0100
>From: dledger@ns.sympatico.ca (Donald  Ledger)
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint

<snip>

>Why not the same with an experienced UFO researcher, who in many
>cases might know exactly what to look for through experience and
>probably because s/he had often wished the witness of some UFO
>sighting in the past had done certain things.

Thanks Don, that is precisely my point. I should have just put it
that way! :-)

>I had a good sighting last November in BC and I had two areas of
>experience to bring to the sighting. Experience as a UFO
>investigator and many more years as a pilot. I hate to think I
>was disregarded as a witness because of the former experience.

What did you fly? It so happens that I had my first official flying
lesson yesterday, although I've been up already in many different
types. I'm hoping that the new skills I acquire as a pilot will come
in handy in the UFO field.

Greg






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                     New Device Authenticates UFO Videos

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 06:37:54 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 08:13:00 -0400
Subject: New Device Authenticates UFO Videos


Source: The Bangkok Post

http://www.bangkokpost.com/today/010998_Business22.html

I have added a rather interesting item about the black budget
operations of the US National Reconnaissance Office, taken from the
same page.

Stig

*******

September 1, 1998

Insider

<snipped>

Picture perfect

A salute to Harlan Brothers, operating on the frontiers of
science, for inventing something the world really needed.

Mr Brothers, of Connecticut, has patented an encryption device
that can help to authenticate videotapes. It uses a Global
Positioning System satellite receiver to encode tape with the
time and place it was taken. On playback, a special decoder
displays the information about the time and place.

He suggests a socially useful application: "In the case of UFO
sightings, you would be able to know whether the tape was
doctored in any way."

He may be missing a bigger and more lucrative market - divorce
lawyers looking to get the goods on errant spouses.


*******


Our military windfall: What to do?


Most of us have experienced the pleasant surprise of finding
money in the pockets of trousers we hadn't worn for months. So
we can vicariously share the delight the government's auditors
must have felt when they discovered $367 million of your money
in a US bank.

The funds were put there aeons ago by the military under a
long-gone programme to pay for US-supplied military equipment.
Then everyone forgot, or so they say. Now comes the fun part of
trying to persuade the military that the money could be put to
other uses elsewhere. Suggestions? Let us know.

Don't forget, this windfall is not connected with the so-called
secret fund the military maintains to pay for things no one is
supposed to ask about, for national security reasons. Spy
novelists call it the black budget.

The black budget champion remains the US National Reconnaissance
Office, which builds spy satellites. That's about all anyone
knows about this organisation.

It managed to construct a $300-million office building without
anyone finding out. Over 10 years it lost track of $2 billion in
taxpayers' money. If asked, it wouldn't tell, even if it knew.
It's national security.


e-mail: insider@bangkokpost.net=BF


=A9 Copyright The Post Publishing Public Co., Ltd. 1998
Last Modified: Tue, Sep 1, 1998





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   Sep > Sep 1

                      Plan For Planes Over Mars - More

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 03:19:20 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 07:54:23 -0400
Subject: Plan For Planes Over Mars - More

More on the Mars Kitty Hawk can be found in the San Jose Mercury News
online at

http://www.mercurycenter.com:80/premium/scitech/docs/marsplane25.htm


Stig


*******


Published Tuesday, August 25, 1998, in the San Jose Mercury News


From Kitty Hawk to Mars

Scientists at Ames hope to send plane soaring over red planet


by Glennda Chui
Mercury News Science Writer


One hundred years to the day after the Wright brothers made the
first powered, controlled airplane flight at Kitty Hawk,
scientists at NASA/Ames Research Center in Mountain View hope to
accomplish another aviation first by sending a plane soaring
over another planet.

The place is Mars; the date, Dec. 17, 2003.

And if the plan comes to pass, the public will ride along,
watching on live video as an unmanned plane called Kitty Hawk
prowls the Valles Marineris, a mysterious canyon miles deep and
as long as the United States is wide. The plane would provide a
unique vantage point -- closer than an orbiting satellite, more
sweeping than the perspective of a robot roaming the surface.

"Of any project we've ever worked on, this is the one that
everyone I've talked to says is cool," said Michael Ravine,
advanced projects manager for Malin Space Science Systems in San
Diego, which would build the plane's scientific instruments.

The proposal is one of 29 now competing for NASA funding. Two
will be selected in spring as Discovery missions,
faster-better-cheaper enterprises that can be assembled in a few
years for less than $299 million.

The first three in the Discovery series -- the Near Earth
Asteroid Rendezvous spacecraft, Mars Pathfinder and Lunar
Prospector -- all launched on time and under budget. Three more
are in the pipeline, getting ready to visit comets and sample
the solar wind.

Given the effort that NASA is already putting into Mars
exploration, with plans to hurl a spacecraft at the red planet
every couple of years for the next decade, some scientists
figure that any proposal involving Mars has even less chance
than the 2-in-29 odds imply.

But backers of the airplane mission -- known as MAGE, for Mars
Airborne Geophysical Explorer -- say it promises a matchless
view.

Orbiting spacecraft can snap pictures of the entire planet, one
skinny strip at a time, but they can't make out features smaller
than about six feet square, said Larry Lemke, chief of the
advanced projects branch at Ames and chief engineer for the
mission.

At the other extreme, the Sojourner rover nuzzled right up to
rocks. But its wanderings took it only about the length of a
football field.

An airplane would fill the gap. Flying within half a mile of the
surface, it could capture details just a few inches square and
cover 1,100 miles of terrain in three hours, sending 50 billion
bits of data back to Earth before ending its mission with a
crash.

The Martian Kitty Hawk would do more than take videos and
photos. It would carry a suite of instruments designed to probe
the structure and composition of the rock.

"What we want to know is what's going on beneath the surface,"
Ravine said. "Now we can't just dig it up. So we carry
instruments that sense the gravity field and the magnetic
field," which together can reveal patterns of rock beneath the
ground.

Another instrument, the thermal infrared imaging spectrometer,
provides clues to the rock's composition. And one that measures
electric fields may be able to tell whether liquid water -- the
prime prerequisite for life -- lies within five or six miles of
the surface, because water changes the electrical conductivity
of rock.

Lemke said the first serious studies of a Martian airplane were
done a couple of decades ago, when engineers were looking for a
follow-up to the Viking missions.

The original plan was to fold the plane into an entry vehicle
and pack that inside a Viking spacecraft for delivery to Mars.
Once there, the plane would pop out, buoyed by a parachute, and
unfold its wings. Then, powered by an engine that burned rocket
propellant, it would fly during daylight hours, land at sunset
and take off again the next day.

Two years ago, his team dusted off the concept, made the plane
smaller and simpler and submitted it to NASA as a possible
Discovery mission. The agency rejected it. It was still too
complicated, with too many things that could go wrong.

So they tinkered some more.

They eliminated takeoffs and landings, trimming the total flight
time to just a few hours. Because of that, the equipment will
not have to survive extreme temperature differences between day
and night on the planet's surface.

"There's no landing gear, no rocket propulsion system," Lemke
said. "The navigation system is a lot simpler" because the plane
wouldn't get anywhere near the ground until its work was done.

The Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, D.C., would build
the plane, which would weigh 330 pounds and measure 32 feet from
wing tip to wing tip. Orbital Sciences Corp. of Dulles, Va.,
would build the spacecraft that carries it to Mars, as well as
the cocoon that protects the plane as it enters the Martian
atmosphere.

"We're basically mimicking the Mars Pathfinder as much as we
can, taking the heritage of that vehicle" as the basis for the
Kitty Hawk mission, said Ann Mauritz, an engineer at Orbital who
is involved with both. The main difference, she said, is that
this time the spacecraft will deliver a plane to Mars instead of
a rover.

The target of its investigation is one of the biggest and most
intriguing features on Mars.

"Valles Marineris is a really interesting place," said Michael
Carr, a planetary geologist at the U.S. Geological Survey in
Menlo Park who is not involved in the proposed mission. "It's
interesting geologically, and it's interesting from a biological
viewpoint."

For one thing, people don't know how it formed. The canyon runs
out from an enormous bulge on the planet's surface that appears
to have been made by volcanic activity, Ravine said. There is
some evidence that the canyon was formed by a type of faulting
in which the ground pulls apart and a block of rock sinks,
forming a bottom.

But the canyon walls are striped with layers of rock -- the kind
of formation that, on Earth, would have been deposited through
the action of water or by lava flows from a volcano.

"What are these layers made of? How were they laid down?" Ravine
said. "Geez, what the hell's going on here? It's an enormous
feature, caused by planetary-scale forces.

"Then there's the fact that it's a big hole in the ground, which
means since it was formed, material has been transported into
it" by landsliding or by flowing water. Some people have even
suggested there may have once been lakes in the canyon bottom,
Ravine added, although that's "really, really speculative."

While the canyon is the kind of place where explorers might
conceivably look for signs of past life, it's unlikely that a
spacecraft would go there to bring back samples of rock, Carr
said. The terrain is too rough.

On the other hand, this is a place where a deep cross-section of
the planet is exposed -- including rocks that could be billions
of years old.

"Whatever the story is, there would be important clues about the
overall history of Mars," Lemke said. "For example, if it turns
out it was substantially water-carved, it would tell you, by
golly, there must have been a lot of water there at one time"
and water may still exist beneath the surface.

The plane would fly at a constant altitude -- about 5.5 miles
above the "zero point," an altitude that serves the same
reference function as sea level on Earth. Since the walls of
Valles Marineris rise about five miles above the zero point, the
plane would soar within about a half-mile of the ground.

Although the Martian atmosphere is exceedingly thin -- about
1/100th as dense as Earth's -- it's still thick enough to
support flight, Lemke said. He said the flight of an
experimental NASA plane over Hawaii two weeks ago demonstrates
the point. It reached 80,000 feet.

While the atmosphere there is about three times as dense as the
one Kitty Hawk would find on Mars, that planet's gravitational
pull is weaker, so the plane there would weigh only about a
third of what it would weigh on Earth. The effects cancel each
other out, making the atmospheric conditions equivalent.

The space agency is scheduled to whittle down its list of
possible Discovery missions in November. That gives the
finalists a few months to fine-tune their proposals before the
winners are announced in May.

If Kitty Hawk survives the cut, it'll be the second Mars mission
to take advantage of a splashy arrival date. In 1997, Mars
Pathfinder touched down on the Fourth of July.



=A91997 - 1998 Mercury Center. The information you receive online
from
Mercury Center is protected by the copyright laws of the United States.







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              Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles

From: Jakes Louw <louwje@telkom.co.za>
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 08:35:03 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 09:08:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles


>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Can Microwaves From A Satellite Cause Crop Circles?
>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:17:18 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net


>" The smaller the transmitter array, the
>larger the angle of divergence of thetransmitted beam. A highly
>divergent beam will spread out over a greatdeal of landarea, and
>may be too weak to activate the rectenna. In order to obtain a
>sufficiently concentrated beam, a great deal of power must be
>collected and fed into a large transmitter array."

Mark, does it then follow that a very large array with "normal" (ie:
physically acheivable) output in the range you mentioned, that
can concentrate its output into a very small area effectively
can increase the resultant radiation at that focus point?

How about HAARP bouncing its waves off the concave
ionosphere? That concave factor would concentrate the
beam to a point, if the outgoing beam from HAARP was
set up correctly.

Just a thought.

Jakes E. Louw
louwje@telkom.co.za






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   Sep > Sep 1

                     Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint

From: Michel M. Deschamps <739411@ican.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 04:04:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 09:23:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint


>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint
>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:42:20 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:42:16 +0100
>>>From: dledger@ns.sympatico.ca (Donald Ledger)
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint

>>>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>>>Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 20:33:58 EDT
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint

>>>If a police officer witnesses a murder... do you think his
>>>testimony would be discarded or retained? It makes him
>>>personally involved, but he has a job to do, and if he is a
>>>professional, he'll do it without letting personal feelings
>>>interfere.

>>I had a little trouble with this reasoning myself when I read it
>>and this is not the first time this subject has cropped up. Your
>>analogy of the policeman is a good one. If push came to shove on
>>crime in progress, particularly a violent one, I'd much rather
>>have the testimony of the policeman than an inexperienced
>>civilian. You want the criminal put away.
>
>I think we all know, really, what was being raised by Scott in
>his original posting. That is, the researcher who claims to have
>seen UFOs again and again and again, and who, when placed under
>scrutiny, turns out to be almost as imaginative as the strawman
>raised by debunkers as their model of the UFO witness. Yes,
>there are some people like that in the Ufological community, and
>it is a problem. (Oddly, Scott's website seems to give credence
>to Dr. Bruce Cornet, who falls almost perfectly into this
>profile).

<snip>

I wish to apologize for not clarifying a few things.

First, the only possible explanation I can come up with for why
myself and other people around here have had so many sightings,
is the fact that Sudbury, Ontario, Canada was, at one time,
known to be the nickel capital of the world.

Here, we find one of the largest deposit of nickel in the
world...the result of an asteroid impact. Sudbury's main
employers are INCO and Falconbridge, the two mining giants. I
don't know if anyone else out there did their homework, but UFOs
are attracted to sites such as these. I have spoken with former
INCO workers who have had severaI sightings of UFOs. I've even
spoken with two former INCO police officers (At one time, INCO
had their own police force).

In September 1961, at 8:03 in the morning, they saw two flying
saucers, one above the other, as they maneuvered over the
Creighton Open Pit (today, the site of the Sudbury Neutrino
Observatory). 20 minutes later, four men coming to work spotted
the two objects over the Copper Cliff park.

When I went to check the Sudbury Star newsclippings for 1961, I
realized I had already found the article containing the account.

Another man I know (I'll refer to him as D) worked as a master
welder in the welding shop at the Copper Cliff Smelter. Between
1966 and 1975, he has witnessed approximately 53 sightings, most
of which were very unusual lights in the sky. But the others
were very Close Encounters.

(Later, when I purchased microfilm reels from the National
Archives in Ottawa, I was able to find only three of his
reports...where are the others?)

Why would a man have so many sightings? It just so happens that
1967 was a bumper crop for UFOs in most countries, and Sudbury
had more than its fair share of it. D said to me that you didn't
even have to be lucky to see one. Every night, or every second
night, between 12:00 and 3:00 a.m., you would see something. And
they weren't satellites! D and the other workers knew about
satellites because in those days, the newspaper used to print up
the schedule for the satellite overflights, which they kept at
work, and they used to sit out at break time (10 - 10:30 on the
4 to 12 shift) and watch them as they went by.

One night in particular, they witnessed a UFO as it headed
straight for a satellite moving in the opposite direction. When
they "touched", there was a flash, but the satellite never came
out the other side and the UFO continued on its way. It was
reported in a national magazine that NASA had lost contact with
a satellite. One year later, the satellite reappeared, going at
the same speed, on the same orbit! No explanation was given. But
seven men witnessed this.

Here's another good one: one night in 1967, D and his best
friend and co-worker, J, were up on top of a hill overlooking
New Sudbury, when they noticed, through their binoculars, two
star-like objects moving side by side. A few seconds later, one
of them dropped from the sky and headed for a large hydro
station located east of there. For half an hour, the object
would move up and down the power line, causing the lights in New
Sudbury to dim. When it was done, it flew up and "parked" next
to the other one. Then, the second one came down and did the
same thing for another half- hour, but this time, all the lights
went out. After the two objects had left the area, the two men
drove down to the hydro station and spoke with the guy on duty.
Asked if he had seen it, he said that this was the second time
that week that this had happened! He said that when the first
object came over the line, the power dropped from 100,000 volts
to 30,000 volts. But when the second object came down, the power
dropped all the way down; there wasn't even a 1000 volts in the
line, he said. He added that Hydro knew about these incidents,
but that the public wasn't allowed to know the truth about the
power outages.

These are just a couple of examples of things that have taken
place in and around this city. Since I met D in 1990, I've
gotten to know him and his wife very well. His wife has seen a
few things too, and at very close range. D has related to me
several other incidents where police officers have chased UFOs
down the highway... sometimes having UFOs chase them, flying
parallel to the cruisers. (For eight years, D and his wife went
bowling with two police officers and their wives, and they would
talk amongst themselves about UFOs). I could go on and on with
these accounts, most of which never made the headlines, but I
don't want to give my book away.

During our research into newspaper archives, fellow researcher
Todd Fraser (739419@ican.net) and I have collected several
accounts of UFO sightings made at other locations, such as
Timmins and Kirkland Lake. But mines aren't the only attraction.

CFS (Canadian Forces Station Falconbridge is another hot spot
for UFOs.

Most researchers are familiar with the October-November flap of
1975, when UFOs were reported at four US military installations.
One day after Travis Walton had been returned (Nov. 11), the
Falconbridge Radar Base picked up four UFOs on its radar
screens. Six nurses at a Sudbury nursing home saw the objects in
the sky at the same time. Police officers were sent out and also
reported the UFOs. I, like everyone else, thought it was the end
of it. But in the fall of 1990 (Oct. 9), a few months after I
met D, I saw an object brighter than Venus come straight down
from the sky, eventually making its way towards the Radar Base,
where it hovered for approximately 5 minutes. Through my
binoculars, I noticed that it was pinkish-white in color, and
pulsated like an road-side emergency flare (distance = 4 miles
away). The next day, I went back to the same spot, and through
my binoculars, I noticed that a section of the base was as wide
as the UFO had been, the night before. I got the opportunity to
go up to the base (abandoned since 1987) and measure the
building in front of which I place the object, and it came out
to be forty feet by forty feet square. Which meant that the
object had a width of approximately forty feet. Simple
deduction.

As for my objectivity. Yes, I am biased when it comes to my own
sightings and those of the people I've come to know. And yes, I
am (sort of) skeptical (suspicious is  more like it) when I meet
someone for the first time, who is reporting a sighting to me.

I've had to be careful because a former "associate" of mine
tried to take credit for work that I had done when I
investigated a landing trace case in 1991. I've got to "get the
feel" of the person for a while before making a decision whether
or not he/she should be trusted. Usually, I find that if the
person is dishonest, it eventually shows through. And when
they've really seen something, you can it in their eyes because
it changes your life forever.

Once you've had a sighting, that's it...you're screwed. You
can't close the floodgates again. Some of my friends, who have
had a sighting, were completely skeptical before. Now that
they've seen UFOs, they are no longer skeptical. Not only do
they KNOW that UFOs are real, but they've had additional
sightings, sometimes in the presence of their girlfriends and
family members. We've become pretty good observers.

All this talk I hear about human perception and whether it's
faulty or not is just a lot of bull!

No doubt there are crackpots out there, but if you're really
observant, you can almost weed them out everytime. Heaven's Gate
is a perfect example of this. And remnants of the 1950's
Contactee Movement is another. If someone comes up to you and
asks about information on Venusians, you know that person's got
to be crazy. That's happened to me at a convention in Toronto,
so I know.

Perhaps one day, people will stop wasting time accusing each
other of misperception or lack of objectivity.

Let's stop pussyfooting around, let's get our asses in gear, and
do what we're supposed to do: collect the data and use it to
educate the public.

Better yet, let's wait until the ETs show up, scare the crap out
of people, cause a few heart attacks, and then, maybe, we'll
bring out the facts.

I guess better late than never!

----------







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 1

                                 BAR 199808

From: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 01:13:14 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 09:06:53 -0400
Subject: BAR 199808


Bufo Calvin
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA  94596
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Website: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufo
calvin<;/a>
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this
edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made
to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with
strangers before you e-mail them something.  If you forward this, please make
sure it is clear that you are forwarding it).
 August, 1998 (Vol 1, #8)

Books mentioned in BAR can be ordered on most e-mail systems by clicking on
the hyperlink title.  This will take you to the book at Amazon.com.  You can
read more about it at that point and decide if you want to order it.  If you
do, you add it to your "shopping cart".  Then, if you want another title
mentioned here, please click on it in this post.  If you have questions,
please e-mail Bufo at bufocalvin@aol.com.  Books are also available by phone
from Greenleaf Publications at 1-800-905-UFOs (1-800-905-8367).  If you call,
please be sure to tell them that Bufo sent you.

If you have books to recommend, please let me know.  If you would like to be
named as recommending it, include that information as well and tell me you
would like to be cited.

In this issue: Recommended by Others, Recent Additions, and Most Intriguing.
I expect Featured Title to return next month, but I'm trying to get this out
in August...

----------

RECOMMENDED BY OTHERS

Read a great book?  E-mail me at BufoCalvin@aol.com.

The W-Files
Subtitle: True Reports of Wisconsin's Unexplained Phenomena
(<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0915024594/bufosweirdworld">
The W-Files</A>)
by Jay Rath
Paperback (pagination unknown)
December, 1997
List Price: unknown, Amazon Price*: $14.95
Reviewed by larryk@sturminc.com (Larry Katerzynske)
Recommended book, although it's quite regional, as the title suggests:
"The W-Files: True Reports of Wisconsin's Unexplained Phenomena"
by Jay Rath.  Written in a somewhat light-hearted style, but very readable and
you can tell the author is very intrigued by his subject.  He even encountered
his
own personal "MIB" while doing the book!  Everything included:
Bigfoot, UFOs, werewolves, lake serpents, Atlantis... even kangaroo sightings!
1997, Wisconsin Trails, Madison, WI  800-236-8088
(PS: I am not affiliated with the author or publisher- I just happened to pick
it
up at the library yesterday and couldn't put it down.  LK)

------------

Night Siege
Subtitle: The Hudson Valley UFO Sightings
(<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/156718362X/bufosweirdworld">
Night Siege (Hudson Valley UFOs)</A>)
by J. Allen Hynek, Philip J. Imbrogno, Bob Pratt
Paperback (288 pages)
This Revised Edition May 1998
Review by JSMortell@aol.com (Jim)

A book I read recently intrigued me enormously, and I am not quite sure why.
I am driven to read everything I can on the subject of UFO's, but much of what
I read, frankly, is merely a rehash of the same old pap.  But this one was
different.  I could not put this one down.  Perhaps it was because the
sightings reported in the book took place in my backward.

In any case, the book is, "Night Siege, the Hudson Valley UFO Sightings" and
was written by Dr. Hynek, Phil Imbrogno and Bob Pratt.  The book is published
by Llewellyn Publications.  I ordered it online from Barnes and Noble.

The book stars the "triangular and boomerang" twins frequently seen in
Westchester, Putnam and Orange Counties in New York's Hudson Valley region.
They were also seen in Western Connecticut.  Even more recently, I had an
opportunity to speak with someone who was there at the time, had some
sightings himself and even had a hot line set up for reports.  That was Peter
Gersten of CAUSE.  The chat with Peter took place AFTER I read the book, but
his opines clarified some issues and created even more interest in just
exactly what happened.

Also, the book is written largely, by those who had the sightings, written in
their words.  Even more interesting are the witnesses.  They span the cultural
and professional range of the people spectrum.  But more important is that
many of these witnesses are technical professionals, people whose opinion has
greater validity than, say, a guy who just fell off the back of a turnip
truck.

I loved it.  Others may agree.  But it is worth a reading.

Jim

---------
Thank you again for your recommendations!  If =you= have a book (or video,
etc.) to recommend, I'd appreciate the opportunity to pass it along.  Please
be sure to let me know if you would like to be cited.

RECENT ADDITIONS:

Some of the items recently added to Bufo's WEIRD WORLD BOOKS:

Fairy Spells
Subtitle: Seeing and Communicating with the Fairies
(<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0285634593/bufosweirdworld">
Fairy Spells</A>)
by Claire Nahmad
Hardback (64 pages)
October 1998 (but available now)
List Price: $12.95, Amazon Price*: $9.06

Gods of the Dawn
Subtitle: The Message of the Pyramids and the True Stargate Mystery
(<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/072253549X/bufosweirdworld">
Gods of the Dawn</A>)
by Peter Lemesurier
Hardback (256 pages)
September 1998
List Price: $24.95, Amazon Price*: $17.47

How to Defend Yourself Against Alien Abduction
(<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0609802631/bufosweirdworld">
How to Defend Yourself Against Alien Abduction</A>)
by Ann Druffel
Paperback (256 pages)
August 1998
List Price: $12.00, Amazon Price*: $9.60

----------

MOST INTRIGUING:
The most visited books last month at Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Books included:

1.The Complete Books of Charles Fort
(
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0486230945/bufosweirdworldA/">
The Complete Books of Charles Fort</A>)
by Charles Fort
Hardback, (1125 pages)
This Omnibus Reprint, 1974

2.Cosmic Top Secret
(<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0938294733/bufosweirdworld">
Cosmic Top Secret</A>)
by William Hamilton, III
Paperback, pagination unknown
April 1992
Amazon Price*: $15.00

3.The Field Guide To North American Monsters
Subtitle: Everything You Need to Know About Encountering Over 100 Terrifying
Creatures in the Wild
(<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0609800175/bufosweirdworld">
Field Guide to North American Monsters</A>)
by W. Haden Blackman
Paperback (272 pages)
June, 1998
List Price: $15.00, Amazon Price*: $12.00

4.The Day After Roswell
Subtitle: A Former Pentagon Official Reveals the U.S. Government's Shocking
Ufo Cover-Up
(<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/067101756X/bufosweirdworld">
The Day After Roswell (paperback)</A>)
by Philip J. Corso, William J. Birnes
Paperback (400 pages)
June 1998
List Price: $6.99, Amazon Price*: $5.59

5. (tie) Flying Saucers Over Los Angeles
(<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0932813542/bufosweirdworld">
Flying Saucers Over Los Angeles</A>)
by Dewayne B. Johnson, Kenn Thomas, David Hatcher Childress
Paperback (248 pages)
June 1998
List Price: $16.00, Amazon Price*: $12.80

5. (tie) The Ultimate Alien Agenda
Subtitle: The Re-engineering of Humankind
(<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/156718779X/bufosweirdworld">
The Ultimate Alien Agenda</A>)
by James L. Walden
Paperback (320 pages)
June 1998
List Price: $9.95, Amazon Price*:$7.96

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Prices are set by Amazon.com.  Clicking on the link will take you to their
current listing and reflect the current price.
____________________________
___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly
redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by
e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com.  You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to
Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if
there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t
he week before.
_____________________________

**OPUS is the Organization for Paranormal Understanding and Support. I am an
Executive Boardmember, and Director of the OPUS Educational Institute. OPUS
encourages its officers and Network Associates to express their own opinions:
however, it is important to note that I do not speak for OPUS in this piece
or others presented under my own name.  For more information on OPUS, see its we
bsite at http://members.aol.com/josephxx3






   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 2

              Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:33:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 08:28:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles

>Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 08:35:03 +0200
>From: Jakes Louw <louwje@telkom.co.za>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

>Mark, does it then follow that a very large array with "normal" (ie:
>physically acheivable) output in the range you mentioned, that
>can concentrate its output into a very small area effectively
>can increase the resultant radiation at that focus point?

My point was that those energies are not achievable with current
technologies. They are not just an order of magnitude beyond
conventional power plants, they are eleven orders of magnitude
larger. At the least it requires a fusion explosion and would
only be able to be delivered in a pulse.

>How about HAARP bouncing its waves off the concave
>ionosphere? That concave factor would concentrate the
>beam to a point, if the outgoing beam from HAARP was
>set up correctly.

In the model I presented previously, I simply postulated a beam
about 0.1 m on a side from end to end. SPS research postulates a
much larger beam from a larger emitter to a larger collector.
Your suggestion is the focusing of a large beam to a small
point. Obviously focusing can increase the wattage per square m
at the receiving point, but the inverse square law still
operates, and I believe the energy required does not alter. The
implausibility of generating 10^20 W from any generator is at
the crux of the argument, along with the implausibility of
delivering it undetected.

It will take some pretty solid evidence to convince me that
reflection from the ionosphere will have a focusing effect. It
seems to me that, at best, the ionosphere will act as a
relatively flat mirror in regard to microwave beams of any
reasonable diameter. Also, any such beams, as with the
previously mentioned problem, would probably be easily
detectable on radio, television, and by nuclear alert sensors.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 2

                     Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:00:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 08:33:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint

>From: Michel M. Deschamps <739411@ican.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint
>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 04:04:30 -0400

>First, the only possible explanation I can come up with for why
>myself and other people around here have had so many sightings,
>is the fact that Sudbury, Ontario, Canada was, at one time,
>known to be the nickel capital of the world.

>Here, we find one of the largest deposit of nickel in the
>world...the result of an asteroid impact. Sudbury's main
>employers are INCO and Falconbridge, the two mining giants. I
>don't know if anyone else out there did their homework, but UFOs
>are attracted to sites such as these.

Michel -

No, I have never, in all of the geographic studies I have seen,
found mines as a UFO hot spot, and I would find it difficult to
name even one report which came from such. Bodies of water, yes.
Power plants, yes. Military bases, yes. Mines, no. To prove such
a contention requires that you show a significant percentage of
UFO reports come from such areas. If you can do so, I'm sure we
would be interested.

The problem with any sort of contention of any particular type
of locality as better than another for UFO reports on a
statistical basis is that the distribution must be normalized
for population (which we don't know is a safe thing to do),
exact locations of the UFO must be present (thus, landings or
close to the ground hovering (i.e. CE's) are required), and then
the resulting distribution needs to be compared to a random
distribution, as Vallee did in checking Michel's orthotenic
hypothesis.

I'm sure a study could be done with the French 1954 wave since
Vallee used those cases in his orthotenic study and good
coordinates are publicly available in one of his books. I'm not
sure where you'd get French mine locations for that year, but
there must be references.

I urge you to consider validating your hypothesis in this
manner. That's the kind of thing which can make the study of
UFOs scientific.

>Then, the second one came down and did the
>same thing for another half- hour, but this time, all the lights
>went out. After the two objects had left the area, the two men
>drove down to the hydro station and spoke with the guy on duty.
>Asked if he had seen it, he said that this was the second time
>that week that this had happened! He said that when the first
>object came over the line, the power dropped from 100,000 volts
>to 30,000 volts. But when the second object came down, the power
>dropped all the way down; there wasn't even a 1000 volts in the
>line, he said. He added that Hydro knew about these incidents,
>but that the public wasn't allowed to know the truth about the
>power outages.

As custodian of the Project 1947 EM Effects catalog, I would be
interested in knowing more about this report. Is the location,
date and time available? The witness names? Was a followup ever
done with the power station management by an investigator? Was a
profile of power problems in the area done, to determine whether
the temporal correspondence was tight or just coincidence? What
was the duration of the sighting and did the power return to
normal when the object departed?

>All this talk I hear about human perception and whether it's
>faulty or not is just a lot of bull!

Michel, it's not bull. Every investigator should be completely
familiar with the uncertainties of human perception, especially
with regard to NL class cases. I refer you to Haines (1980),
Observing UFOs, the most comprehensive reference on the subject,
as well as to any readable work on cognitive psychology.

Hynek and Vallee have both written extensively on the
misperceptions which are part of the reporting of this
phenomenon. Every competent investigator is aware of the sort of
cases they discuss - often because we've run into them.
Balloons, aircraft, even fireworks. They are part of the noise,
they exist, and they reflect a certain frailty to human
perception that is key to the work of the objective
investigator.

For you to make such a comment causes concern to me as to
whether I can rely on the reports you mention. If you are
unaware of these effects or are deliberately ignoring them as
"bull", then how can you be filtering UFO sightings?

>No doubt there are crackpots out there, but if you're really
>observant, you can almost weed them out everytime. Heaven's Gate
>is a perfect example of this. And remnants of the 1950's
>Contactee Movement is another. If someone comes up to you and
>asks about information on Venusians, you know that person's got
>to be crazy. That's happened to me at a convention in Toronto,
>so I know.

There are certainly plenty of New Age crazies, and yes, they can
be fairly easy to filter. Kenny Young recently reported the case
of an enthusiastic family who did not fit that profile, but who
made UFOs from every star and planet. Those are the kind of
witnesses that are harder to filter without an on-site visit and
reenactment.

>Perhaps one day, people will stop wasting time accusing each
>other of misperception or lack of objectivity.

When people stop mispercieving and cooking the data, it will be
safe to do so. Not until then.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------






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              Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:33:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 08:29:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles

>Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 08:35:03 +0200
>From: Jakes Louw <louwje@telkom.co.za>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

>Mark, does it then follow that a very large array with "normal" (ie:
>physically acheivable) output in the range you mentioned, that
>can concentrate its output into a very small area effectively
>can increase the resultant radiation at that focus point?

My point was that those energies are not achievable with current
technologies. They are not just an order of magnitude beyond
conventional power plants, they are eleven orders of magnitude
larger. At the least it requires a fusion explosion and would
only be able to be delivered in a pulse.

>How about HAARP bouncing its waves off the concave
>ionosphere? That concave factor would concentrate the
>beam to a point, if the outgoing beam from HAARP was
>set up correctly.

In the model I presented previously, I simply postulated a beam
about 0.1 m on a side from end to end. SPS research postulates a
much larger beam from a larger emitter to a larger collector.
Your suggestion is the focusing of a large beam to a small
point. Obviously focusing can increase the wattage per square m
at the receiving point, but the inverse square law still
operates, and I believe the energy required does not alter. The
implausibility of generating 10^20 W from any generator is at
the crux of the argument, along with the implausibility of
delivering it undetected.

It will take some pretty solid evidence to convince me that
reflection from the ionosphere will have a focusing effect. It
seems to me that, at best, the ionosphere will act as a
relatively flat mirror in regard to microwave beams of any
reasonable diameter. Also, any such beams, as with the
previously mentioned problem, would probably be easily
detectable on radio, television, and by nuclear alert sensors.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------






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                     Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report

From: Donald  Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 13:58:12 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 09:11:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report


>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 21:10:00 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?

>>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:26:39 -0400
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?

>>I think it has been noted that the U.S. was aware of the
>>possibility that Pakistan was capable of creating a nuclear
>>weapon prior to the "test", which resulted from our watching the
>>flow of various components into Pakistan from other countries
>>(most notably North Korea).

>Steve,

>I agree that US intelligence had some idea that India and
>Pakistan were poking around with the big A, but they sure acted
>surprised when they lit one up.

>I simply believe that with all the problems in the world today
>and the new enemies the US is creating lately, satellites have
>(or should have) more important things to do than draw pictures
>in English crops.

Also, don't you think it would piss off the governments and
farmers of England, Canada, the United States and Australia to
name a few, if they found out that the US Intelligence community
was destroying crops in other countries. Everyone tends to
forget that some poor farmer is taking a loss every time these
turkeys get in there and tramp down his crop...not to mention
the curious who show up afterwards.

>In fact, seems like the Communist Party has
>been smacking their chops lately at the thought of gaining back
>some control in Russia. I'd sure like to know what's going on
>there behind the scenes if I were a member of the US
>intelligence community.

I would think there is a big difference now between the
communists of the old regime and those of the new in Russia.
Remember France has a communist party in power now, I think, I'm
not sure. If not now, they were previously.

>Anyway, as you indicated, there doesn't seem to be any evidence
>that satellites are capable of producing the phenomenon. There
>is at least a small amount, however, to suggest a connection to
>UFOs, whatever they turn out to be.

A very small amount I warrent, but I have trouble associating
this with the UFO phenomenon.

Don Ledger





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             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Perry Mick <perrym@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 08:39:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 09:06:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?


>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Can Microwaves From A Satellite Cause Crop Circles?
>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:17:18 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net

<snip>

>"Further, the intensity of power in a microwave beam drops off
>as 1/(range^2); by the time a weather radar beam hits a target
>and bounces back, the antenna usually measures at most
>milliwatts of power.

I don't buy it at all that satellites could possibly be
producing crop circles, but does a laser or maser power really
drop off as 1/(range^2)?  It seems this wouldn't apply to a
coherent source. The 1/(range^2) applies to something radiating
equally in all directions, so the wavefront spreads out as it
moves away from the source.





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                     Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint

From: Donald  Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 13:44:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 09:09:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint


>From: Gre St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 21:46:47 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint

>>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:42:16 +0100
>>From: dledger@ns.sympatico.ca (Donald  Ledger)
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ufology - A Personal Viewpoint

><snip>

>>Why not the same with an experienced UFO researcher, who in many
>>cases might know exactly what to look for through experience and
>>probably because s/he had often wished the witness of some UFO
>>sighting in the past had done certain things.

>Thanks Don, that is precisely my point. I should have just put it
>that way! :-)

>>I had a good sighting last November in BC and I had two areas of
>>experience to bring to the sighting. Experience as a UFO
>>investigator and many more years as a pilot. I hate to think I
>>was disregarded as a witness because of the former experience.

>What did you fly? It so happens that I had my first official flying
>lesson yesterday, although I've been up already in many different
>types. I'm hoping that the new skills I acquire as a pilot will come
>in handy in the UFO field.

Hi Greg,

I learned to fly on Piper Cherokee 140s and the PA-28 and since
then have flown several different airplanes but I own a
Cessna-172 B at the moment. If anything it should teach you how
to scan the sky looking for other aircraft. It also teaches you
how to do and think about 10 different things at once. You will
understand what I mean a little further on in your training,
particularly after you solo.Anyway it might help you in the UFO
field in at least three areas:

1] Identification at a glance of a couple of hundred aircraft
from all angles. It's something you learn on your own.

2] Determining height from the ground improves to some degree.
You get to know the altitude of specific aircraft by their
apparent size.

3] You get a good grounding in the air traffic control system
and can therefore avoid certain common mistakes made by the
public ie. the tendency to think that the military can do pretty
much whatever they feel like doing in controlled airspace or
that objects can be dropped from aircraft at will, like flares.

In any event you will be looking at the sky a great deal, as
pilots do, because they are always looking for the weather and
wondering if they can go flying today:-)

Good luck with your training and enjoy yourself...though it's
hard not to.

Don Ledger





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                      Re: '75 Sightings at Loring AFB?

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:13:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 09:15:40 -0400
Subject: Re: '75 Sightings at Loring AFB?

>From: Geoff G. Dittman <gdittman@autobahn.mb.ca>
>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 15:17:09 -0500 (CDT)
>Fwd Dte: Mon, 13 Aug 1998 21:32:07 -0400
>Subject: '75 Sightings at Loring AFB?

Geoff Dittman queried for information on these sightings.

I have a friend who has been a lifelong astronomy enthusiast who
was a member of the airbase security unit at Loring at the time.
He told me that other guards would report UFOs which were
astronomical objects, and even auroral rays would be reported as
UFOs behind the trees.  He told me it was really wild, that
other guys were reporting "everything" as UFOs.  In his opinion,
and he was out there at night on patrol, was that nothing out of
the ordinary (beyond aircraft and sky objects) happened.

Philip J. Klass has proposed that astronomical objects (one
light and no radar contact, for example) and flights by a
civilian helicopter taking survey pictures provide good
explanations.  See the details of his investigation in: 'UFOs:
The Public Deceived', Prometheus Books, 1983, pp. 89,
92-97,105.)

Clear skies,
Bob Young






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                         Re: Pointer To The Circles?

From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 18:15:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 09:39:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Pointer To The Circles?


>From: Gerry Lovell <ed@farshore.force9.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Pointer to the Circles?
>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 16:58:41 +0100

>One of the earliest to document crop formations in England was
>Arthur Shuttlewood, a journalist and author who went on to write
>a number of UFO-related books. In the 1960s and early 1970s such
>observations within the fields of Wiltshire were treated almost
>as an aside to the main sequence of events. Far greater emphasis
>was placed on the abundance of UFO sightings, landings and even
>alleged alien encounters. Most of these having been recorded in,
>or in relatively close proximity to the market town of
>Warminster.

Thanks for your post of information regarding early "landing
traces" or what would have been called "saucer nests" (a la
Tully "nests" in Australia in latter '60's) or landing circles
(e.g., Edwin Fuhr, Canada, 1973(?)) where the tall grass/grain
is swirled and lying flat (dead). I was not aware of thes work
you refer to. I don't recall whether or not it was mentioned in
Colin Andrews' first book, which does include a historical
overview,

Anyway, you suggest (I guess) that perhaps agriglyphs are caused
acoustically by some military device(s). I don't know what sort
of physical phenomenon you enlist to explain such a thing.
Simply bombarding with high power low frequency acoustics might
cause some small changes. However, it seems to me that it would
not cause heating to the same level that microwaves could cause
heating without having acoustic powers great enough to cause
shock waves in the atmosphere. If some device were generating
periodic shock waves it would have been heard.






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                             Black Helicopters?

From: Keith Stevens <k. stevens@virgin. net>
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:58:44 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 09:31:06 -0400
Subject: Black Helicopters?


Hello List

Would someone answer a few questions that I have regarding
'Black Helicopters'?

I live in an area frequented by Military Helicopters, the
standard British Army/RAF 'Camo' patterned types.

One thing I've noticed is that they all look Black at a
distance, some, depending on the light available and the angle
of the sun can look Black surprisingly close. As for markings,
if you have not got a pair of 'Binos' to hand, forget it you
will not see any.

Question - Has anyone actually asked people who have seen Black
Helicopters where the sun was at the time, how far away the
Helicopter was, what where the weather conditions, how familiar
with Helicopter I. D. is/was the observer?

My next point is that one of the Golden Rules of
Surveillance/Covert Operations is 'Do nothing to draw attention
to yourself'! With this in mind, flying around in Black
Helicopters during the daylight hours is hardly discreet.

If these Black Helicopters are really engaged on some form of
covert mission they are sure drawing a lot of attention to
themselves. Surely, if Helicopters are required for daylight
covert ops they would be better suited, i.e. Civilian Colored
and Marked?

Am I missing the obvious?

Comments please.

Regards Keith.







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                    Circles Reported in British Columbia

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:13:59 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 09:33:49 -0400
Subject: Circles Reported in British Columbia


Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Update
September 1, 1998

The Canadian wave continues...

CIRCLES REPORTED IN BRITISH COLUMBIA

*Preliminary Report*

A report was just received this morning, September 1, from Chad
Deetken (Pacific Research) and Graham Conway (UFO*BC) of ten
circles in an oat field near the town of Vanderhoof, BC, just
outside of Prince George. According to a CBC Radio news report,
the circles range in size from about 30 feet to 150 feet.
Discovered by Vanderhoof Flying Services. No tracks, etc.
reported. Dogs reported barking through the night. More
information as soon as it is available. UPDATE ON CONQUEST /
OUTLOOK FORMATIONS

Further investigation of the circles at Conquest and Outlook,
Saskatchewan has shown that several of the circles have
intricate "cross" features attached to them, comprised of two
layers of flattened wheat overlapping each other at right
angles. Additional ground investigation was conducted this past
weekend by Gordon Sopczak, CPR-Canada and CCCS representative
for Alberta. All circles have very nice spiral lay patterns,
with the crop pressed hard to the ground. The circles themselves
are still there, even after being combined, as the wheat in the
circles is pressed very close to the ground, and therefore was
not cut. The farmers at both sites have been very cooperative,
as have local reporters. Also, the Outlook circles were first
discovered August 11, not August 18.

The Conquest and Outlook circles were featured in a full page
article, including colour ground photographs, in the August 27
issue of The Western Producer, one of Canada's leading
agricultural publications, which constitutes a significant
breakthrough in bringing this phenomenon to the serious
attention of the mainstream farming, media and science
communities in this country. There has also been other local
media coverage of these formations, plus the Esterhazy dumbell.

Web site updated as of September 1.

Also, update on Canadian circles upcoming this week on Art Bell,
so tune in!

For further information or correspondence, contact:


Paul Anderson

Director
CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA
Affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International

Director
MILLENNIUM RESEARCH INSTITUTE

Representative
BLT RESEARCH, INC.

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue, Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4
Tel / Fax:  604.731.8522
E-Mail:  psa@direct.ca

CPR-Canada Web:  www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310
MRI Web:  mypage.direct.ca/p/psa/








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              Re: David Jacobs Target Of 'Skeptical Enquirer'?

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:38:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 09:36:44 -0400
Subject: Re: David Jacobs Target Of 'Skeptical Enquirer'?

>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 03:07:54 +0200
>Subject: UFO Researcher At University Among Targets Of Columnist

>Source: The Philadelphia Inquirer

>http://www.phillynews.com:80/inquirer/98/Aug/31/entertainment/PSYC31.htm

>Stig

>*******

>August 31, 1998

>Call it freedom? Or beyond the fringe?

>Activity at Temple's Center for Frontier Science is the target
>of a columnist.

The Skeptical Inquirer is just the 'propaganda wing' of CSICOP.
It's a low circulation rag and who cares what they think! I would
simply ignore it as I'm quite sure David is doing. The worst thing
that anyone could do would be to dignify those Medieval dolts with
any kind of a response.

Peace, end of story-

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
________________________________________________






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             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 18:19:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 09:59:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?


>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Can Microwaves From A Satellite Cause Crop Circles?
>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:17:18 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net

>A little quantitative thinking may help here. First, let me cite
>from a web reference, concerning radar, which is, of course,
>a microwave source:

>http://www-cmpo.mit.edu/Radar_Lab/FAQ.html

>"2.How much energy do radars transmit? Is it dangerous?

>"This varies with the radar, but the answer to the second
>question is almost always no. Weather radars might transmit from
>100-500 kW peak power, but they only do this in very short
>bursts. For example, the MIT C-Band radar transmits 150 kW peak
>power, but only in 1 microsecond pulses, 1000 of these per
>second. So the average power over any 1 second interval is only
>(150,000 * 10^-6 * 1000) kW or about 150 Watts - perhaps as
>strong as a couple of bright light bulbs.

>"Further, the intensity of power in a microwave beam drops off
>as 1/(range^2); by the time a weather radar beam hits a target
>and bounces back, the antenna usually measures at most
>milliwatts of power.

<snip>

>Since microwaves follow the inverse square law, and therefore we
>can determine the amount of energy required to cause a ground
>effect by a little back-of-the-envelope reverse calculation.>

>Since the suggestion was made that the effect shown in crop
>circles had been duplicated in a microwave oven, let's look at
>the energy necessary to duplicate those conditions from
>geosynchronous orbit (roughly 22,000 miles distance).

>If the microwave oven output is 1.3kW, and the distance is 0.1m,
>and 22,000 miles is 35,405,638.811m, which is 354,056,388.110
>s 1.629627036487 x 10^20 Watts. That is what's needed to
>produce a microwave oven level effect on the ground in a space
>the size of the interior of a microwave oven. This ignores
>dissipation of energy into the atmosphere through heating or
>ionization, and it also ignores the dispersion of the beam as it
>travels through the atmosphere.

<snip>

This is a false comparison because the radiation in a microwave
oven is contained within a box, "cavity", and does not fall off
as 1/r^2. A better method would be to estimate the amount of
power necessary to affect an area the size of the heating area
in a microwave oven, say 100 cm^2 (10 cm by 10 cm square area in
the oven.... and then calculate the initial beam power at a
satellite say somewhat over 100 miles up (the "absolute"
minimum altitude for any satellite that might have such a beam;
at higher altitudes the power would be greater, unless the
diameter are were increased in proportion to the distance.)

If we accept 1.3 kW as the power within a 100 cm^2 area then
assume this is at the center of a beam projected over a distance
of 200 km = 2 x 10^7 = 2E7 cm. How wide would a beam be at te
earth's surface if it started from an aperture (antenna) that
would be a reasonable size for a satellite of low orbit, say 1 m
= 100 cm in diameter? This depends upon the wavelength. Lets
assume for simplicity 3000 MHz radiation with a wavelength of
(3E10 cm/sec)/(3E9 Hz) = speed of light/frequency = 10 cm. The
divergence angle from an antenna is approximately given as
3(wavelength) /diameter (full angle) so in this case it is 3 x
10 cm/(100 cm) = 0.3 (radians) (This is an approximation for a
circular antenna or "dish"; other shapes may have lightly
different radiation patterns). "Simply" multiply the divergence
angle by the distance and add the initial beam size to get the
size at the distance desired, in this case 2E7 cm: beam diameter
at earth = 2E7 x 0.3 = 6E6 cm. beam area at eath = (pi/4) x
(6E6)^2 = 2.8E13 cm^2 For a VERY CRUDE approximation that the
beam intensity is constant over this beam diameter, we would
require that if over 100 cm^2 area we have 1.3 kW, then over the
total beam area we would have a WHOPPING 1.3 kW x 2.8E13/100 =
3.7 E11 kW ..... I do believe this far exceeds the power output
of th Grand Coulee Dam or any nuclear power station. Now, it is
true that the assumpion of constant power over the beam area is
not true. The power drops off "at the edges" , i.e., is
concentrated at the center. So cut the power level in half and
get closer to the "true answer." To improve the situation one
could increase the diameter of the antenna, but clearly one
would need an antenna hundreds of meters in size to reduce the
power to a reasonable number (satellite power measured in
kilowatts nowadays). (see Cashman comments below) Alternatively,
decrease the frequency. Go to infra-red or visible to get the
beam sze down. But then your heating process is not the same and
it may not affect the plant nodes the same way... if at all....
or might simply burn the plant! Another note of interest, this
time from

The power requirement goes up as th square of the distance if
the antenna size stays the same. Hence at 22,000 miles one would
need nearly 50,000 times more power.... or the same power with
an antenna abou 220 times bigger in diameter.






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               Re: P-1947: Walt's Woes - The Decline of MUFON

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 98 19:26:33 PDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 10:05:55 -0400
Subject: Re: P-1947: Walt's Woes - The Decline of MUFON


>From: Nick Humphries <nick@the-den.clara.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: P-1947: Walt's Woes - The Decline of MUFON
>Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:06:08 GMT

>>Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:55:13 EDT
>>From: Herb Taylor <HerbUFO@AOL.COM>
>>Subject: Walt's woes
>>To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

>>Greetings to the List:

>Sadly this is now a world-wide phenomenon - I left BUFORA a year
>or two ago because they were giving more credence to the
>"fringe" areas (Lear, Santilli, NWO, etc), presumably to try and
>hook more members by the sensationalism of the material. Sadly
>(for them) it didn't work and they're now in messy times at the
>moment - see previous 'BUFORA Watches' for more details.

>The fact is that time is ufology's worst enemy - many 'landmark'
>cases are now solved or very close to being solved as more and
>more information comes out.

What nonsense. The strong cases, the ones that have been the
cornerstone of the case for UFOs as extraordinary phenomena,
remain as puzzling today as they were when they occurred (as,
for example, Ted Phillips is about to demonstrate with a classic
CE2; we could also usefully note the conclusions of the Sturrock
panel here -- or have they and it been forgotten already?).

This is precisely the sort of breathtaking bloviation ufologists
in their hairshirt mode seem distressingly fond of these days,
and it serves neither them nor the truth. It does, however, tell
us more about the mindset of current ufology than it tells us
about the classic cases. (These include Socorro, Delphos,
Levelland, McMinnville, JAL, Coyne, and all the rest which seem
to be slipping out of ufologists' historical memory [which seems
about as susceptible to amnesia as people's historical memory
generally]; for a refresher course, see my encyclopedia and its
extensive bibliographic references, not to mention Brad Sparks'
in-depth reinvestigation/reanalysis of the seminal RB-47 case
[pp. 761-90]).

Let's start talking sense, shall we?

>- the Thomas Mantell incident: originally believed to be some
>sort of UFO abduction/crash of a plane - sometime in the 80's
>ufologists finally agreed he was actually chasing a Skyhook
>balloon and ran out of oxygen when he flew too high - the sad
>thing is that the Skyhook explaination was known in the 60s but
>was rejected as part of the "cover up" and/or the work of
>debunkers.

It's been a long time since the Mantell incident (never thought
to be an "abduction", by the way; maybe our correspondent has it
confused with another case) was considered a significant UFO
incident. If this is an example of a big case that's been
explained to our profound disillusionment, I am even more at a
loss to grasp the point our correspondent here is trying to
make.

Incidentally, the problem is not, as our correspondent would
have us believe, that Philip J. Klass is misunderstood; it's
that he is all too well understood. I speak (or type, anyway) as
one who has a massive file comprising nearly two decades' worth
of correspondence with this strange man. What's amusing about
this, of course, is that there is no small number of skeptics
and debunkers whose reading of Klass' personality is precisely
like mine and other ufologists'. I know -- I've exchanged
observations and information with a number of them over the
years. One was a friend, now sadly deceased, who used to work at
CSICOP headquarters. He had no use for Klass, who he said was
known among the organizational hierarchy to be an "extremist"
(not scare quotes; the actual word expressed) but was considered
to be a _useful_ extremist. I was reminded of FDR's famously
cynical observation about the dictator of Nicaragua: "He may be
a son of a bitch, but at least he's _our_ son of a bitch."

Anyone who's trying to make an intellectually serious skeptical
case would do well to jettison Klass from the discussion, just
as sober ufologists do to the extremists in their own ranks. In
any event, are there any conversations in ufology more tedious
than those of which Klass is the subject?

CSICOP and its ilk deserve Klass. The rest of us don't.

Let's grow up and move on.

Jerry Clark









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 2

                 DISPATCH # 102 -- the weekly newsletter of

From: ParaScope@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 22:11:06 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 10:09:28 -0400
Subject: DISPATCH # 102 -- the weekly newsletter of

S O M E T H I N G   S T R A N G E   I S   H A P P E N I N G

8/2/98

Quote of the Week

"Man's greatest joy is to slay his enemy, plunder his riches, ride his steeds,
see the tears of his loved ones and embrace his women."
--Genghis Khan

-----------------------

Rant of the Week: �Making Nazis Worse�

Every week we pick the wackiest, scariest, nastiest or funniest rant from the
hundreds of letters received by us here at ParaScope headquarters, and present
it to you as our Rant of the Week. This week, �Raymond� provides what is
undoubtedly the most fantastic and enjoyable colleciton of hilarious non-
sequiturs in Dispatch history. Enjoy.

"What is the result when Hydrogen is breached...and this applies to our
deliberate daily lives.

"We may have a mess on our hands.  I HOPE I am simply just a little silly at
this moment.

"This moment, our moment, everyone's moment.

"I feel what I feel, I think what I think this day, the day Russia
collapsed...with 30,000 nukes, as everyone says.

"Hydrogen=proton plus electron. This is a plus atom and a minus atom.

"I am not happy about this folks.

"What happens when the plus and minus are breached, and mixed with heavy metal
wavelengths?

"What happens when atoms do not mate?  What happens when they can NOT mate...

"I hope for more than my life that I am simply a crank...but I have a hunch I
am not wrong.  Damn it.

"The bombs went off...and go off.  I hold myself personally responsible.  Call
this a cranky rant.  I hope you are right. I hope I AM a luniatic in this
case.

"Somebody built the bombs then, as they do now.  Now an alleged 30,000 of them
are lose in a territory which has fallen.

"God save Bilderberg and it's policies....the destroyer of us all. (Sarcasm).

"Genocide is routine, in 'cleansing' the planet...I suppose to return it to
it's "natural" state in their minds.  The world does not NEED animals.  It
needs intelligence.

"I suppose the answer to the question is the fact that you do NOT split the
atom.  You simply split up HYDROGEN. I am far less than happy to be in this
mess. So often I wish I really was a lunatic, so I could take a holiday,
ANYWHERE.  Jail, Mental Hospital - whatever.  To have to THINK for a living is
worse than prison.

"Split Hydrogen, huh?  Splitting hydrogen is like making Nazis WORSE.

"Nazis are evil, for they play the part of hydrogen.  Remember the HYDROGEN
Hindenberg?  Hydrogen people...

"And yet somebody out there is doing WORSE than the Nazis ever did.

"It appears, though I can not prove it, that Bilderberg and Phillip
Mountbatten are up to it.  And yet it is obvious if one is not brainwashed.

"There is no warning to give.  There is no anger to state.

"I love, and fear the golden rule.  Some do evil simply because they forgot
the golden rule.

"British Intelligence may supply entire tribes with weapons, and stir up
slaughter.  They have no idea that they are COMPLETELY accountable for their
actions.  It is no human judgement. It is MATHEMATIC.

"Humanoids currently spend their time fighting, rather than cooperating."

------

All rants are printed �as is,� with spelling and grammar goofs left
uncorrected. Some rants may be edited for brevity or clarity, to the extent
such a thing is possible. If you�ve got a rant you�d like to share, send it to
pscplady@aol.com with �possible rant� in the subject line of your letter.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Coming Up This Week!

Catch a number of great stories this week on the ParaScope web and AOL sites,
including daily updates to our Conspiracy Newsline and Daily Dose features.
Among the articles you'll want to check out:


CIA Anniversary: 51 Years of Hidden History

History is catching up with the CIA. As the spy agency celebrates its 51st
birthday, Dossier will note the occasion with an updated round-up of our
detailed and documented features on CIA covert operations. The mind control
experiments, the dalliances with death squads, the assassination plots and
secret coups -- it's all here, and it's all on the record. The long-hidden
history is now available to you.

-------------------

UFO CAUTIONARY TALES #5: TOO MANY MYSTERIES
The Maury Island Case -- Deros, Flying Donuts, Radioactive Slag, and JFK

The majority of UFO encounters simply involve a sighting in which the witness,
or witnessess, see an aerial object they cannot explain. They report it, and
no mundane explanation is found. These sightings ultimately prove little in
the grand scheme of things. But once in a while, a UFO case comes along that
has so much data, so many entanglements, and so many weird associations that
it cannot be easily categorized or digested. Such is the case with the Maury
Island affair, which occurred very early in the modern UFO era, on June 21,
1947. In this all-new UFO Cautionary Tale, Nebula editor Paul B. Thompson puts
some perspective on the submerged truths of the Maury Island's murky myths.

-------------------

Mysteries of Coral Castle

In Homestead, Florida, there stands a bizarre complex of massive coral
structures known as Coral Castle. Composed of a courtyard filled with towers,
altars and monuments to the moon and the planets, it was entirely constructed
with giant blocks of coral weighing several tons each. But Coral Castle was
not created thousands of years ago by an ancient race -- it was built between
1920 and 1940, by one man working alone and in secret. The eccentric architect
never explained his reasons for building Coral Castle, or revealed how he did
it, although he claimed to have discovered "the secrets of the pyramids." In a
special report from FATE  magazine, Frank Joseph examines the history of
America's modern answer to Stonehenge.

-------------------

Vampires: Origins of the Myth

How are we to understand the vampire? Is it myth, a mere legend, the story of
romantic, gothic writers? Or is the vampire based in fact -- at least to some
extent? The original vampire was not like the sophisticated, suave European
aristocrat that we know of today. The vampire, at its origins, was a monster.
ParaScope correspondent Adrian Nicholas McGrath takes an in-depth look at the
history of the vampire legend, tracing its evolution from ancient Greece and
Asia, through the Middle Ages, and into Slavic folklore and the writings of
Bram Stoker and Anne Rice. This special  report also examines current
scientific and medical theories on the question of whether vampires exist.

-------------------

UFO Roundup

Get the latest UFOlogy news and sighting reports from around the globe,
courtesy of Joseph Trainor's UFO Roundup! Chupacabras blamed for mass slaying
of exsanguinated livestock in Puerto Rico; three crop circles appear in
Saskatchewan; Massachussettes launches "Big Brother" police helicopter strike
force; Goddard Space Center damaged in mysterious fire; lots more news and UFO
sighting reports.

...All this, and much, much more!

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Jane, Stop This Crazy Thing!

Thought you were tough enough to handle the Dispatch and now you realize
you're not? Starting to think you've made a wrong turn off the info highway?
Well, we're only going to go over this once, so listen up!

To unsubscribe yourself from Dispatch:

1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com

2) In the body of your mail, type: unsubscribe dispatch

That's all there is to it!

Likewise, to subscribe:

1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com

2) In the body of your mail, type: subscribe dispatch

----------------------------------------

ParaScope
11288 Ventura Blvd., #904
Studio City, CA 91604

America Online -- keyword: parascope
parascope@aol.com

World-Wide Web -- http://www.parascope.com
info@parascope.com






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 2

                  Sites On Ardennes UFO Wave Now In English

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 03:35:22 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 10:07:38 -0400
Subject: Sites On Ardennes UFO Wave Now In English


Regular readers will know of the recent wave of sightings over the
Ardennes.

Belgian UFOCOM's brilliant pages are now available in English. Go to

http://195.74.196.113/UfocomHq/uscharleville1.htm

http://195.74.196.113/UfocomHq/uscharleville2.htm


Stig






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 2

                      Re: '75 Sightings At Loring AFB?

From: Michel M. Deschamps <739411@ican.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 22:30:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 10:39:28 -0400
Subject: Re: '75 Sightings At Loring AFB?


>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 15:17:09 -0500 (CDT)
>From: Geoff G. Dittman <umdittm0@cc.UManitoba.CA>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Loring AFB

>I received this email yesterday, but not being familiar with the
>incident I wasn't of any help. Does anybody here having any
>information?

>----------------------------------------------------------------

>Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:23:05 PDT
>From: Patrick Mowatt <telperion@hotmail.com>
>To: umdittm0@cc.UManitoba.CA
>Subject: Loring AFB UFO sightings

>Dear Sir or Madam:

>I am writing this as a letter of inquiry. I am seeking any
>information you can send me with regard to the 1975 UFO
>sightings at Loring AFB in Maine. I have read various postings
>on the net which have led me to the understanding that Canadian
>bases were also overflown at the time, and that Canadian
>fighters were on alert status.

>I live in New Brunswick on the border with Maine, about three
>hours from Loring AFB, which is part of the reason for my
>interest in this matter.

>Thank you in advance for your time.

>Please send any replies to:
>telperion@hotmail.com

>Sincerely,
>Pat Mowatt

To Patrick Mowatt,

Your best bet would be to get your hands on the book entitled
'The UFO Cover-Up' by Lawrence Fawcett and Barry J. Greenwood
(First Fireside Edition 1992, published by Simon & Schuster Inc,
ISBN: 0-671-76555-8).

It describes, at great length, the October-November 1975 flyover
of UFOs at several US and Canadian military installations.

Chapter 2 (entitled "Intrusions at Loring") speaks for itself.

Chapter 3 (entitled "Faded Giants"?) covers the happenings at
Malmstrom AFB, Montana.

And Chapter 4 (entitled "Wurtsmith and Others) describes the
incidents that occurred at Wurtsmith AFB, in Michigan; Minot
AFB, in North Dakota, and CFS Falconbridge (Radar Base), near
Sudbury, Ontario (of which I have the official documents).

You will _not_ be disappointed! As an added bonus, I'm including
newsclippings about some of the happenings that are covered in
this book. Enjoy.

While reading these newsclippings, you will note the stupid
explanations that were put forth to explain away the sightings
over Sudbury. They originated with Ian Halliday of the National
Research Council of Canada, the government's so-called UFO
'expert', at the time.

Michel M. Deschamps
UFO Researcher/Historian
Sudbury, Ontario, Canada
739411@ican.net

---------------------------------------------

October/November 1975.txt

North Bay, Ontario, 'Nugget', 1 November 1975

Radar Didn�t Identify UFO

The Canadian Forces Base, SAGE complex, was asked to assist OPP
officers to identify a UFO hovering over Iron Island, Thursday
night.

The OPP detachments in North Bay and Sturgeon Falls observed the
bright white light from about 10 p.m. to 1 a.m., when the light
went out.

Capt. E. Philip Ripley, 22nd NORAD Region Control Centre, told
The Nugget Friday, the SAGE complex did not track a UFO on its
radar.

He said this particular sighting, like most others, was a
stationary object in a low-lying area. The radar equipment is
designed to pick up relatively slow-flying aircraft above
geographical obstructions.

The object could be mistaken for heavy cloud cover or part of
the landscape. One-half-inch on a radar screen covers about a
ten-mile radius, giving a wide area in which to focus on such a
small object. Also adding to the difficulty of tracking is the
fact that most of these objects move vertically, out of the
radar scope, at a tremendous rate of speed, he said.

"There were no aircraft reported in that area, Thursday night,"
Cpt. Riley said.



Sudbury, Ontario, The Star, 11 November 1975

Radar base, police see UFO here
by Rob Rowland, The Star Staff
Writer

Unidentified flying objects were sighted over Sudbury and
Haileybury, early this morning.

At least seven Regional Police officers, one Ontario Provincial
Police officer, and the staff at Canadian Forces Station
Falconbridge saw the objects. The UFOs were also spotted on the
Falconbridge radar screens.

Four people at the radar station at Falconbridge saw the UFOs in
the sky and tracked something on radar. But a spokesman for CFS
Falconbridge would only say there was no apparent correlation
between Police sightings and anything that might have appeared
on radar.

Confirmed

In Ottawa, National Defence Headquarters confirmed that four
people at the radar station, alerted by the Police, saw three
bright circles with two black dots, about 6:15 a.m. The objects
were photographed by the base staff.

The UFOs picked up on radar were moving upward between 42,000
and 72,000 feet. They were visible at about 30 nautical miles
from the station, for about 14 minutes. Other objects, too far
away to be observed, were also seen by the station staff.

First to see the UFOs here were Regional Constables Bob
Whiteside and Alex Keable.

They spotted three objects in the sky about 4:50 a.m., and
drove to a vantage point on Logan Ave., in the west of the city.
There, they saw four objects; the brightest in the eastern part
of the sky. One in the southwest, moved at times and seemed to
jerk; another in the northeast remained stationary throughout
the time the two officers were observing.

The objects were still visible when the two officers went off
duty at 7 a.m. by that time, their report said, the sun was
coming up and The Stars were gone.

Another officer saw an object north of the city, moving at a
high rate of speed toward the northwest, for about a minute.

Cons. John Marsh, on patrol on Highway 17E near Coniston, said
in a report, the sky was cloudy but he was able to observe
lights in the sky toward the southwest. Those objects too, moved
in a jerking manner, and were pulsating. "It was different from
what you would normally call a The Star," Cons. Marsh said in his
report.

Between 5 a.m. and 7:15 a.m., Cons. Gary Chrapchynski and
Policewoman J. B. Deighton, watched an UFO in the west part of
the city.

They said they saw an object lighting up the clouds, and
obtained a pair of binoculars to watch the UFO. Their report
said the object was cylindrical and bright. It remained in the
sky until after the sun rose and The Stars had gone.

The Sudbury Provincial Police office said it was called by
Regional Police, but saw nothing. One officer at the Dowling
detachment, who wouldn�t give his name, said he followed a
bright object down Highway 144 and Errington St., in the
Chelmsford area.

In Haileybury, more than 100 miles to the east on the
Ontario-Quebec border, Provincial Police reported a civilian
radio dispatcher, Fred Sauve of New Liskeard, spotted a bright
object over Lake Temiskaming, about 5 a.m.

An OPP spokesman said a report was not ready on the sighting,
but the object was bright, white and larger than a The Star,
according to Mr. Sauve.



Sudbury, Ontario, The Star, 12 November 1975

U.S. Jets Scrambled On UFOs More Sightings Reported; Radar Base
Won�t Comment
by
Rob Rowland, The Star Staff Writer

A squadron of U.S. Air National Guard F-106 interceptors were
scrambled, Tuesday morning, to check the skies over Sudbury for
UFOs spotted on radar, The Star learned today.

The jet fighters were sent aloft, several hours after the last
Sudbury Regional Police sighting at 7:15 a.m. A North American
Air Defence command (NORAD) spokesman in North Bay said the
fighters were scrambled from the U.S. Air Force base at
Selfridge, Michigan, at 12:50 p.m. local time.

In Colorado Springs, Del Kindschi, a Public Information officer
for NORAD, confirmed something had been tracked over Sudbury.

He said an object was picked up on the Falconbridge radar about
30 nautical miles south of the station. He added that whatever
was spotted visually by the station personnel - three glowing
lights with dark centres - was not necessarily the same thing
seen on radar. The U.S. fighters did not find anything when they
reached here, Mr. Kindschi said.

In North Bay, the Public Affairs officer for 22nd NORAD Division
said North Bay-based aircraft did not respond. Sudbury is part
of the 23rd Division, and for a routine scramble, such as the
one on Tuesday, the response comes from bases in the 23rd
Division.

"In a real emergency, planes from North Bay would come," he
said.

Another UFO was reported last night by Sudbury Regional Police.
Two officers, whose names were not released, saw a lighted,
blinking object while on patrol on Highway 69 north, from 1:40
a.m. to 2:20 a.m.

The officers said in a report, the object was definitely not a
The Star and displayed different changing colors.

In Nairn Centre, Theresa Bouillon reported she and her two sons,
Roger, 14, and Claude, 13, saw several objects over their home,
between 10 p.m. and midnight, Tuesday.

The first object was bright yellow and orange, and was seen in
the eastern sky, towards Sudbury.

Later, another object, bright enough to hurt their eyes, was
seen to the east, over Espanola. Mrs. Bouillon said she called
Provincial Police in Espanola, but an OPP spokesman said no
other reports were logged at that time.

Four At Once

At one point, Mrs. Bouillon said, she and her sons saw a total
of four objects in the sky at once. At midnight, because it was
cold and they were frightened, they went in to go to bed.

"It�s the first time I�ve seen one and I hope it�s the last,"
she commented.

A spokesman at CFS Falconbridge had no comment, today, and
referred The Star to NORAD when questioned about last night�s
sightings. In Colorado Springs, Mr. Kindschi said he had not yet
received a report on the Tuesday night sightings.



Sudbury, Ontario, The Star, 14 November 1975

NORAD-tracked UFO Was No Hoax, Says United States Expert
by Rob Rowland, The Star Staff Writer

An unidentified radar blip seen at the same time as Sudbury
Regional Police saw an unidentified flying object, Tuesday,
apparently was on the radar screens at CFS Falconbridge for
several hours, The Star has learned. And a top U.S. civilian
authority is convinced the object was "no hoax."

The U.S. fighter-interceptors sent here were scrambled, a North
American Air Defence command (NORAD) spokesman said, because the
blip was "a persistent phenomenon."

NORAD wouldn�t say just how long the blip was visible. The first
Police sighting came at 4:50 a.m., and the Falconbridge
personnel saw an object south of the station, at 6:15 a.m. At
the same time, an object was picked up on radar 30 nautical
miles south of the station, going upward between 42,000 and
72,000 feet.

 The last sighting by Regional Police was about 7:30 a.m., and
almost six hours later, at 1:50 p.m. The 171st F-106 squadron of
the Michigan Air National Guard was scrambled, apparently
because radar still was tracking the UFO. They found nothing
when they got here.

No Hoax

There is still no explanation of what the unidentified object
might be.

Dr. J. Allen Hynek, chairman of the astronomy department at
Chicago�s Northwestern University, and who heads an official,
U.S. government-sponsored UFO information service, said what was
seen over Sudbury is called a "radar-visual" UFO, meaning it is
picked up on radar and seen visually.

"When a radar-visual fits a pattern, it�s not unusual," Dr.
Hynek said. "But when NORAD confirms something, that is unusual.
It rules out a hoax."

"The critical thing in the visual sighting is motion," Dr. Hynek
said. "If the UFO doesn�t move over a long period, it is likely
the object is a bright The Star. Both Venus and Jupiter are very
bright right now," he pointed out.

Suspects Planet

Dr. Hynek, who vacations each summer in the Blind River area,
said he was aware that there had been interesting UFO sightings
in Sudbury, in the past.

Canada�s UFO expert, Ian Halliday of the Hertzberg Institute of
Astrophysics at the National Research Council in Ottawa, said
what the Police officers saw was likely Venus or Jupiter.

"At this time, when the planets are bright in the sky, we expect
a lot of UFO sightings, and we do get them," Mr. Halliday said.

"Venus rises around 3 a.m. high in the southeast, and is still
bright and high in the sky, after sunrise," Mr. Halliday said.
"Jupiter is also bright, and sets about 4:30 a.m. Mars, the red
planet, is getting brighter," he added.

One problem with the reports he received from the Sudbury
Regional Police is that they are too vague to tell if what the
officers saw on Tuesday night, are actually Mars, Venus or
Jupiter, he said.

Coincidence

Asked about the sightings on radar, Mr. Halliday said: "As near
as we can tell, it is a coincidence. We have no way of knowing
of any connection between the visual and radar sightings."

"This sort of thing is not uncommon on radar. They just happened
to see one at the same time," he added.

The fact Police said the UFO lighted up the clouds did not
necessarily rule out The Stars. Venus can light up thin clouds, Mr.
Halliday said.



Sudbury, Ontario, The Star, 15 November 1975

First �yes then �no� No pictures taken of UFO There were no
photographs taken of the Sudbury UFO Tuesday morning, a base
spokesman at CFS Falconbridge now says.

On Tuesday, The Star was told by North American Air Defence
command (NORAD), District 22 headquarters at North Bay, to
contact National Defence Headquarters in Ottawa for information
about the UFO. A spokesman there, said one of the station
personnel had grabbed a camera and taken a picture of the bright
object in the southern sky.

The Star was told: "They weren�t sure how the photographs would
turn out."

Later, Tuesday afternoon, the Public Information office at
Headquarters in Ottawa, told The Star that it was all right for
the photographs to be released to the press. When contacted, the
Falconbridge base said the photographs, which had not been
developed, could be picked up, Wednesday morning.

When The Star called Falconbridge, Wednesday morning, Major
Robert Oliver said there had been no photographs taken, nor any
messages sent to Ottawa that mentioned photographs. He said he
had investigated, and had found "no one who had grabbed a
camera."

On Friday, The Star received a message to call the Falconbridge
radar base and was told again, "definitely no photographs were
ever taken."

The base spokesman added: "Since the object was 30 nautical
miles away, any photographs probably wouldn�t have turned out,
anyway." (Thirty nautical miles equals 36 statute miles, the
kind most of us are familiar with.)



Sudbury, Ontario, The Star, 15 November 1975

Latest sighting of UFO easily explained Friday

Sudbury Regional Police received a flood of calls reporting
unidentified flying objects over Sudbury, about 5:30 p.m.,
Friday. All the calls said the UFO was in the southeast.

That UFO, however, turned out to be the planet Jupiter, which is
the first The Star visible after sunset, at 4:51 p.m.

Regional Police sources, meanwhile, disputed a contention by
National Research Council UFO expert Ian Halliday, that what
Policemen saw Tuesday morning, were the planets Jupiter and
Venus. Police said the objects were too big and too bright to be
a The Star.

One Policeman apparently reported one object was bright enough
to hurt his eyes, while another saw one object moving upward, a
motion that tallies with what was seen on the radar screen at
CFS Falconbridge.



Toronto, Ontario, The Star, 20 January 1979

Our jets scramble after UFOs by Joe Hall, Toronto The Star

WASHINGTON -- Canadian jet fighters "scrambled" at least twice
in one week in an attempt to intercept unidentified flying
objects, it was confirmed last night. The incidents were
revealed in previously top secret documents released in
Washington by the U.S. Air Force and the Defence Department.
They were confirmed by a National Research Council official in
Ottawa.

The U.S. and Canadian reports said the UFOs were seen near a top
secret Canadian military installation and hovering over a number
of nuclear missile launch sites and bomber bases in the United
States.

U.S. and Canadian military personnel reported mysterious craft
visiting the North American Air Defence Command (NORAD) base at
North Bay, Ont., and defence bases along the Canadian border in
Montana, Michigan and Maine, the records show.

On radar

The sightings, both visually and on radar, at North Bay were
described by Dr. Bruce McIntosh of the National Research
Council�s Hertzberg Institute of Astrophysics in Ottawa.

All the sightings were reported in the last few days of October
and first few weeks of November 1975.

The U.S. government records describe the intruders variously as
helicopters, aircraft, unknown entities and brightly lighted,
fast-moving vehicles that hovered over nuclear weapons storage
areas and evaded all pursuit efforts.

The U.S. Air Force sent fighter planes and airborne command
planes aloft on unsuccessful pursuit missions. The released
records do not indicate whether the fighters fired on the
intruders.

McIntosh said that on the night of Nov. 5, 1975, apparent
targets were spotted on the radar at North Bay - part of a chain
of command centres on permanent alert to warn of air attacks on
North America.

Canadian interceptors were scrambled later that morning, when
the targets remained on the radar screen. Nothing was found,
McIntosh said.

The U.S. records show that several sightings were made in the
same period, at Loring Air Force base in Maine, of objects
hovering over the weapons area.

Radar and visual sightings were made and a KC-135 tanker plane
took off to oversee pursuit efforts by a helicopter from the
Maine National Guard.

The object disappeared toward the canadian border where Canadian
jets were waiting on alert, the records show.

There was no indication in the records that the Canadian planes
spotted any craft.

There was a rash of UFO reports in Canada during the first week
in November 1975, from Newfoundland to British Columbia.

McIntosh�s office gets about 200 UFO reports a year from across
the country. His planetary sciences office is concerned
primarily with sightings of meteors, but a UFO file has been
kept since 1962.

Lack of evidence

McIntosh says he is not a believer in space ships piloted by
alien beings "because there is just not enough concrete
evidence."

"If I were a gambling man, I would not place any money on it.
But there are lots of things we cannot explain. I would be the
happiest guy in the world if one landed in my backyard. Now that
would be proof positive.

The U.S. records show that two days after the North Bay
incident, at Malmstrom Air Force Base in Montana, Capt. Thomas
O�Brien was coming off duty as a missile launch officer when he
said an aircraft resembling a helicopter approached the silo
area.

He and his deputy heard what they thought was a helicopter rotor
over the building where they were resting.

The unidentified deputy looked out the window and saw "the
silhouette of a large aircraft hovering about 10 to 15 feet
above the ground" and about 25 feet from the launch area fence.

He reported seeing red and white lights on the front, a white
light on the bottom and another on the rear.

Darkness prevented him from seeing markings or personnel on the
craft which left after a minute or so of hovering.

Lights reported

Military crews at two other nearby launch facilities reported
moving lights in the air, on the same evening.

McIntosh said one explanation for whatever was spotted on the
North Bay radar was that on a clear night, a high density of ice
crystal layers in the sky could reflect radar beams onto
aircraft over the horizon, not normally picked up on radar.

"I looked at the situation at the time - not very thoroughly, I
must admit - and I talked to the officer on duty at NORAD and
satisfied myself that it was a coincidence (the radar sightings)
and the UFO," McIntosh reported.

Venus, at some times in the year, is 10 times brighter than any
The Star and often seems out of place, "sticking out like a sore
thumb," McIntosh said.

Having seen targets on the radar, the officer probably went
outside expecting to see something in the sky, he added.

Defence Department officials in Washington said yesterday, that
formal investigation of unidentified flying objects ended in
1969 and there are no plans to re-The Start the probe, which went
under the code name Operation Blue Book.



Sudbury, Ontario, The Star, 24 January 1979

Well thought-out answer

We have no idea how many unidentified flying objects might have
been sighted in the Sudbury District in the close-to-100 years
that have passed since permanent settlements developed here, but
there have probably been a few dozen reported.

Among the more recent occasions when people were seeing things -
and the phrase can be taken in either of its two meanings was in
mid-November, 1975, a little more than three years ago. Things
appeared on the radar screens of the armed forces base near
Falconbridge, and the NORAD complex at North Bay. At least eight
policemen claimed to have seen strange things in the night sky.
Ordinary people spotted flashing lights and unusual shapes, too.

Sightings were spread out over two nights and American F-106
fighter-interceptor planes swooped over Sudbury from bases in
northern Michigan. The North Bay NORAD base would have provided
planes, but did not have any properly equipped for tracking down
unknown objects described in many different ways.

What was it or were they? Because of its persistency on radar
screens and descriptions of speed and appearance, the head of a
government-sponsored UFO investigation group in Chicago said it
was definitely no hoax. A National Research Council expert in
Ottawa said it was the planets Jupiter and Venus. Local
policemen said if he thought that he was having hallucinations.

Know what they were seeing all along? Crystallized ice in the
atmosphere, that�s what. But that enlightening tidbit is not a
part of the story as it unfolded back in 1975. That�s the
pronouncement of the National Research Council. . .made public
just this week.

That�s reversing the field on the Jupiter-Venus opinion given at
the time, but better right and late than wrong forevermore. It�s
fascinating to ruminate on all the heavy thinking going on all
through those three years in the Ottawa NRC headquarters.





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                  Current Books Whose Titles Include 'UFO'

From: Rebecca <RSchatte@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 01:58:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 11:29:44 -0400
Subject: Current Books Whose Titles Include 'UFO'


From: "We've Found the Books You're Looking For" <eyes@amazon.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 22:03:44 -0700 (PDT)
To: rschatte@AOL.COM
Subject: Books whose keywords include "UFO"


Hello from Amazon.com Books!

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The UFO Files : The Canadian Connection Exposed"
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RevisedBinding: Paperback
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----------------------------------------------------------------
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----------------------------------------------------------------

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1 EdBinding: Hardcover
Expected publication date: September 1998
ISBN: 0312185308
URL: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0312185308/e







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   Sep > Sep 2

                            Phoenix Light Arrays

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:55:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 11:22:26 -0400
Subject: Phoenix Light Arrays

For those of you interested in the controversy over the
March 13, 1997 arrays of light videotaped at about 10 PM
over Phoenix Arizona..... the controversy is about to heat up
again.

For the text of my report see:

www.geocities.com/area51/stargate/5518/maccabee.html

The figures discussed in the report are posted as gif
images at:

www.riskers.com/pictures/phoenix






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   Sep > Sep 2

              Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:21:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 11:20:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles


>Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 08:35:03 +0200
>From: Jakes Louw <louwje@telkom.co.za>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

>>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>>Subject: Can Microwaves From A Satellite Cause Crop Circles?
>>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:17:18 -0400
>>To: updates@globalserve.net

>Mark, does it then follow that a very large array with "normal" (ie:
>physically acheivable) output in the range you mentioned, that
>can concentrate its output into a very small area effectively
>can increase the resultant radiation at that focus point?

Make the array large enough and you can make the focal area or
volume small  (there is an inverse relation between the size of
the radiating aperture - antenna- and the size of the region of
focus..... but you can never get "perfect" focus with all the
power flowing through a zero area.

>How about HAARP bouncing its waves off the concave
>ionosphere? That concave factor would concentrate the
>beam to a point, if the outgoing beam from HAARP was
>set up correctly.

>Just a thought.

>Jakes E. Louw

EM radiation like microwaves, diverging from a source on the
earth's surface can be reflected from ionize layers.  Because of
the curvature of the layers there would be some focusing effect.
But the radius of curvature is basically the radius of the
earth. Hence the focal point will be somewhere way down deep
in the earth, beyond the center of the earth. In other words,
the radius of curvature is so large that it would not focus
radiation to a small point (volume) on the earth's surface but
rather to a point deep inside the earth.





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   Sep > Sep 2

                            Alfred's Odd Ode #268

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 07:05:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 11:31:47 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #268


Apology to MW #268 (For September 2, 1998)

I mean, you'd help me build it -- right? . . .That place where
you could go.  . . .Where answers ask the questions, and the
questions don't blow smoke. Where everybody's interested, and
has no ax to grind . . . just folks concerned with clarity, and
tired flying blind. Where art is done for art's sake, just
commercials for the soul -- where classics don't sell lunch
meat, but they serve the truth up cold. Exposing some unusual
lies, admitting what we should despise, copping to the starry
skies -- and _satisfaction's_ in reprise.

I mean, you'd help me build it -- right? . . .the stone work
architecture, the streams and ponds -- the shady spots . . . the
site of our conjecture. A place to sit with back support. A spot
to put your feet. Hot water from a tap that's free, and air
that's cool and sweet. And leaves of grass in different greens,
an interwoven tapestry -- splashed with reds that never rust,
our painting of a rhapsody. A place to go -- see different
things, study stuff that leaps and sings, watching _close_ what
spreads its wings -- imagination's wanton fling!

I mean, you'd help me build it -- right? . . . the stars would
paint the skies, and the focus is explicit as they shimmer from
disguise. Words take on new meaning -- definitions are profound,
what's heard is CD quality -- somber bursts of ultra sound. And
the humor _is_ full bodied, and the laughter's not at you.
Everyone's respectful -- even Christians, Moslems, Jews.  No
sacred cows, or inhibitions -- no phony, harmful prohibitions,
examining our inquisitions -- changing all the cold conditions.

I mean, you'd help me build it -- right? . . . the screens that
show full motion, all the hardware that contains them, and the
software smooth as lotion. Cameras have strange angles, and
unusual fields of view to capture crystal empathy that may leave
you unconfused. And a library for enjoyment with Teddy Sturgeon
now on hand. Andy Vachss will clean your clock, and then he'll
help you understand. Know truest love, without collusion,
respect up front (it's no intrusion), examine every institution,
improve, at length, _your_ constitution.

I mean, you'd help me build it -- right? . . . the places by the
falls in the mists of acquisition where we hear a lectern call.
Where sunlight's dappled softly into shadows well perceived.
Where we can talk, and eulogize the ignorance we cleave. Where
space spins out unending, and the speculations call. We shan't
be cheated from it; we shall laugh, and have it all! We'll sally
forth in all directions, our senses sharpened for connections;
we'll make (at once) the course corrections, choosing paths for
_best_ detection.

I mean, you'd help me build it -- right?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

I know not what course others may take -- but mine is changing
now.

Restore John Ford!

--
Explore the Alien View? <Updated 31 August>

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake for proposing to build it.







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             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:27:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 12:25:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

>Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 08:39:46 -0700
>From: Perry Mick <perrym@teleport.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

>I don't buy it at all that satellites could possibly be
>producing crop circles, but does a laser or maser power really
>drop off as 1/(range^2)?  It seems this wouldn't apply to a
>coherent source. The 1/(range^2) applies to something radiating
>equally in all directions, so the wavefront spreads out as it
>moves away from the source.

Perry -

You are correct on the properties of the coherent source.

Note that a precise laser has a beam divergence of 2
milliradians (ref: Hecht, Understanding Lasers ISBN
0-7803-1005-5), which, in the case of a laser directed from
geosynchronous orbit, generates a ground level beam radius of
about 708 km (Radius = Distance x tan(BeamDivergence)), again,
ignoring any atmospheric effects.

Because of this, obviously, the power falloff would not be as
great as in the inverse square case, but it still exists.
Assuming the intensity to be required at any square m to be
1.3kW, the total delivered energy on the ground must now be
1.3kW x (area of circle of 708 km radius). Falloff, I think, is
(1/((distance^2) * 0.02milliradians) or something to that
effect.

Note several items. According to the above reference, coherent
masers are not developed to the point of practical use.

Lasers in general range in power to light conversion efficiency
from 0.001% (argon-ion) to 30% (semiconductor). The rest of the
energy is disspated as heat. A 1kW laser generates 1MW of
heat, which must be dissipated.

Thanks for your input.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------






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                  Ashland County, Ohio Flaming UFO 08-29-98

From: Kenny Young <task@fuse.net>
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:41:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 12:08:41 -0400
Subject: Ashland County, Ohio Flaming UFO 08-29-98

UFO Sighting: August 29, 1998 - 9:30 p.m.
Ashland/Wayne County, Ohio
____________________________________

Note: This UFO report, accompanied by an interesting JPEG
drawing of the alleged object furnished by the primary witness,
is located at:

http://members.tripod.com/~task_2/West_Salem98.htm

____________________________________

Initial Report

Background inquiries made regarding a UFO sighting reported to
Peter Davenport of the National UFO Reporting Center resulted in
the identification of additional witnesses to a peculiar oddity
happening near the Hidden Acres Campground in Ashland County,
Ohio.

Investigations began shortly after 4:00 p.m. on Sunday, August
30 when Mr. Davenport, NUFORC Director, advised of a sighting
from a resident of West Salem, Ohio (in Wayne County).

Description of object

A female resident of West Salem, Ohio contacted Davenport at
1901 hrs. (Pacific), Saturday evening (29AU98), and left a
detailed message about a peculiar cluster of four lights the
color of a "caution light" that were seen by her to flash very
brightly on several occasions, after which a "flame" poured out
from "behind" them.

Mr. Daveport contacted the witness at 2130 hrs. (Pacific) and
took an 8-minute report from her. She stated that she was on
State Route 42, south of Salem, OH, "near Ashland," when at
approximately 2130 hrs. (local), she witnessed a bright flash of
"yellow" light.  Her attention immediately was drawn to a
cluster of four yellow, circular (??) lights, that appeared to
her to be "two trees high" (above the ground).

According to the witness, the object "flashed" several times,
perhaps as many as five flashes.  After each flash, a long
"tail" of fire -- "like a jet's exhaust"-- was seen to shoot out
of the "back" of the object.  She said that the "exhaust"
appeared to be physically separated from the object.

The object appeared to be four amber or yellow lights situated
in an unwavering position, relative one to another.

After she had witnessed several bright flashes, she stopped her
car and stepped outside in order to get a better look at
whatever was causing the light.  While she was standing on or
near the roadway, the object flashed several more times, after
which she witnessed the "exhaust" again.

She detected no sound during the entire incident. The oddity was
last sighted as it moved off to the west from her position.  She
was not aware of any other vehicles on the road at the time of
her sighting.

Follow-up interview

The primary witness was contacted for a follow-up interview late
Sunday evening. She lives within the Hidden Acres resort, which
is a mobile-home park that also has a campground.

The object was alleged to have been descending toward the
campground, the witness informed, and she said that that it
exhibited definite movement in a 'downward' direction.

After the sighting, she stood outside by a dumpster and scanned
the sky for a few minutes.

"The thing reminded me of fire that emanates from the back end
of a fighter jet," she said. "It was really low, I had to duck
my head to a certain point to see beneath the trees, that's how
low it was."

She said the object could not have been a jet, however. "I had
my window down, I had no music playing. There was no sound, no
nothing. Just flame and flashing."

>From her estimate, the UFO looked like a series of 4-yellow
lights in a tight diamond shape which did not waver in position.
All four lights would go out at same time, then the four would
suddenly flash simultaneously (a real bright flash but not
casting shadows), followed by a big silent flame. The flame was
twice the width of the 4-lights and 4-times as long. She said
this action repeated between 5 to 8 times.

The fire, when first visible, was described as a blue color,
which became orange. There was no shape or object visible behind
the lights, flashes or flames.

"I thought it was a meteorite at first. I've never seen anything
like it before. It was very pretty, but also very weird," said
the witness.

Animal reaction noted

The following morning, she talked with a neighbor who lives near
the location of the sighting. Before telling her of the UFO
sighting, her neighbor explained how her Himalayan Cat went
'absolutely crazy' the previous evening, running to the door and
then hiding. She said this was not 'normal behavior' for the
cat. After being told of the UFO sighting, the neighbor then
suggested that the UFO be reported.

Corroborative testimony

During the investigative phase of this case, I placed a phone
call to the Hidden Acres Campground, and the employee in the
office informed that she, too, had seen something unusual the
previous evening.

"It was certainly strange," said the campground employee. "It
looked like a red light with flames coming out the back."

"It almost looked like a flame coming from it, but its hard to
say after I think about it. It could have just been the angle I
was at," she said, while informing that her husband also
commented on the oddity.

"We were doing safety checks at 11:15 or 11:20, just making sure
that the campgrounds were quiet and everything was normal. And
while driving around the grounds in the golf cart, we spotted
this red... unusual red light, it looked like it had a tail of
fire. I commented about it to my husband, and we later assumed
that it must have been the new cell-tower that was just put in
last week."

The campground employee rationalizes that a cellular telephone
tower was recently installed in the area, and that its
unfamiliar appearance caused her to have noticed it.

"The tower is right there in this same direction, so what I saw
was probably that tower," she surmised.

Strangely, however, she said that several campers also saw
something the same night and reported it to her sister who
resides near the campground.

"The weird thing about this is that these teenage campers had
came down screaming about it, and they wanted to report a UFO.
We just thought they must have saw the cell-tower too."

According to the employee, the teenagers had packed up and left
the campground earlier in the afternoon because they had to go
to school on Monday morning. "They described something that did
flash," said the campground employee, who informed that the
teenagers had told her sister of their sighting 'sometime last
night.'

The employee affirmed that there are no flashing or strobing
lights on the cell-tower.

E-mail correspondence was made with the primary witness, who was
asked to investigate the location of the cellular tower relative
to the position of the UFO. She did so, and advised that the
cell tower is approximately a 3/4 mile distance away from where
the flashing lights and the "flame" was spotted.

She said the tower shaft can be seen, even on a cloudy evening.
She stressed that she had no trouble discerning the cell-tower
to be a "ground object."

Additional witnesses

The witness added that she and her husband went outside and
talked with neighbors, and an 8 or 9 year-old girl told them
about a "fire that was in the sky last night."

Additionally, the witness reports that a four-year old boy also
said that he saw a UFO which was "like a ball, and had a tail,
then a ball, and another tail."

Further Investigations:

The Wayne County Sheriff's Office (330-287-5700) was contacted.
The female dispatcher who was on duty checked around the office
and knew of no UFO reports received from last night.

The dispatcher knew that Hidden Acres Campground is in Ashland
County, and that a call to the Ashland County office might be
beneficial.

The Ashland County Sheriff's department was then contacted
(419-289- 3911) and the dispatcher said that he had been on duty
the previous evening at 9:30 p.m. and did not have knowledge of
any UFOs reported. He suggested a call to the Ashland County
State Patrol Office be made.

The Ashland County OSP was contacted (419-289-0911) and the
dispatcher on duty did not have information regarding any UFO
sightings. He said that he, too, had been on-duty the previous
evening at 9:30 p.m. and their department sometimes handles
calls from this area.

Jet aircraft/military operation hypothesis:

Peter Davenport stressed several intriguing similarities this
present case has to the Michigantown, Indiana case of August 26,
such as the yellow color, happening on an abandoned road,
multiple lights seen in a formation, and silent operation. He
also cautioned that a similar case from Washington State in
August of 1994 and from July of 1995 involved a privately owned
Mig-19 that was performing nighttime aerobatics on the west side
of Puget Sound generated many UFO reports. The aircraft had two
"flame generators" mounted under the wings, the purpose of which
was to maximize the pyrotechnic effect of the flight.

To address the possibility of military aircraft maneuvers
happening in this area or airborne flares resulting from these
operations, an August 15, 1997 FOIA (Freedom of Information Act)
letter from the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) identified
two zones of special-use airspace within Ohio that are reserved
for military flight training. These areas are the Buckeye MOA
(Military Operations Area) and the Brush Creek MOA. The August
15, 1997 FOIA response from the FAA informed that military
flights within the closest zone, the Buckeye MOA, are restricted
beyond the 4:00 p.m. time-frame on Saturdays. In addition,
altitude restrictions prohibit flights from dropping beneath
5,000 feet. Furthermore, both zones are in Southern Ohio, and
such military traffic or flares within this area could not be
seen in the Northern Ohio area of Wayne or Ashland Counties,
which is more than 150-miles north of the Buckeye MOA.

Additional comments:

When asked if the sighting could have been caused by a
mischevious camper shooting off fireworks, the primary witness
felt it most unlikely. "I highly doubt it, as there was no
smoke, no smell, no sound, as it usually associated with
fireworks."

The remarks made by the employee of the Hidden Acres Campgrounds
may provide soft corroboration of the initial eyewitness report.
The time frame of the campground employee's sighting was placed
at around 11:15 or 11:20, known by the time that she and her
husband were conducting a 'safety check.' This is more than
90-minutes after the initial report which described four amber
or yellow colored lights, situated in an unwavering position and
exhibiting fiery conduct described as an exhaust-like "flame"
pouring out from an object.

Although claiming that she was drawn to the 'red light' when
first seen, and thinking to have seen 'flames,' she rationalizes
that she had simply observed the light on the cell-tower, which
is in the same direction.

It is not know the precise time of the sighting reported by "the
teenagers" to the campground employee, who vaguely recalls that
it was reported to her sister "sometime last night." The only
description available from this source is of an object which
flashed. This detail is consistent with that of the initial
report, and not consistent with the visual observation of the
cell-tower, which is not equipped with a flashing or strobing
light, according to the campground employee.

The initial report of four amber, or yellow lights in an
unwavering position and exhibiting fiery conduct described as an
exhaust-like "flame" pouring out from an object (and happening
during repeated episodes) does not seem consistent with the
sighting of a light on top of a cell-tower. The witness comments
that the phenomenon resembled the fiery exhaust seen on a
jet-fighter, but noted its low elevation, silent performance and
lengthy 1-minute visibility in the residential area.

West Salem, Ohio is about 46 miles Southwest of Cleveland and
81.5 miles west of Youngstown.

Many thanks to Peter Davenport of The National UFO Reporting
Center
for the initial details of this interesting report.

Filed;
August 30, 1998
Kenny Young
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/task/





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   Sep > Sep 2

                           Re: Black Helicopters?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:37:56 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 12:29:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Helicopters?

>Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:58:44 +0100
>To: updates@globalserve. net
>From: Keith Stevens <k. stevens@virgin. net>
>Subject: Black Helicopters

>Hello List

>Would someone answer a few questions that I have regarding
>'Black Helicopters'?

>I live in an area frequented by Military Helicopters, the
>standard British Army/RAF 'Camo' patterned types.

>One thing I've noticed is that they all look Black at a
>distance, some, depending on the light available and the angle
>of the sun can look Black surprisingly close. As for markings,
>if you have not got a pair of 'Binos' to hand, forget it you
>will not see any.

>Question - Has anyone actually asked people who have seen Black
>Helicopters where the sun was at the time, how far away the
>Helicopter was, what where the weather conditions, how familiar
>with Helicopter I. D. is/was the observer?

>My next point is that one of the Golden Rules of
>Surveillance/Covert Operations is 'Do nothing to draw attention
>to yourself'! With this in mind, flying around in Black
>Helicopters during the daylight hours is hardly discreet.

>If these Black Helicopters are really engaged on some form of
>covert mission they are sure drawing a lot of attention to
>themselves. Surely, if Helicopters are required for daylight
>covert ops they would be better suited, i.e. Civilian Colored
>and Marked?
>
>Am I missing the obvious?
>
>Comments please.
>
>Regards Keith.


Keith,

I think I may have mentioned this on this list previously.

In "real life" I am a photographer and photo magazine editor. I
conduct photo workshops all around the country.

One of the places that I conduct an annual photo workshop is the
Valley of Fire State Park in Nevada. This park is due east of
"Area 51" only about 20 miles from the boundary of the Nellis
Range.

Several years ago during my workshop we were photographing in a
fairly narrow little canyon. We heard a noise and looked just
in time to be buzzed by a black helicopter which was coming down
the canyon. I was part way up the canyon wall at the time and
was about on eye level with the chopper pilot. I could have
recognized him if he hadn't had a black face shield on his
helmet, as did the man beside him. The sun was high overhead
since this was just after our lunch break from noon to one.

The helicopter was painted a dull, flat black. There were NO
markings on it at all, period. I have good eyesight, and this
was no trick of the light.

I mentioned this to the head ranger at the park and he got
visibly angry. He said these choppers are buzzing tourists in
the park all the time, and are in violation of FAA regulations
and state law for flying too low and flying within the park
without permits. He said he had tried many times to find out who
to complain to, but since the helicopters are unmarked no one
knows who to complain to about them. He has called Nellis about
them, but they just deny that they are theirs.

So, black helicopters are real. Now this does not mean that
there are not mistaken reports based on seeing normal choppers
at a distance.

Bob








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   Sep > Sep 2

                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 11:18:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 11:18:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:21:38 -0400
From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage
Sender: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage
>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:34:47 PDT

>Dear List,

>I agree that the Mexico footage is more than likely a hoax but I put
>this to those who may know . . .

>Given that that this footage appears to have been shot on a camera
>that uses a CCD imager to record, and this CCD imager is a grid array
>of vertical and horizontal receptors, is it not possible that the
>changes noted in the vertical and horizontal edges of buildings are a
>direct result of the image movement across the receptor boundaries?

The spacings between "receptors" (the picture elements or pixels
in the CCD array) are much smaller than the distance over which
the building edge blur occurs. In the two frames of the video
where the building edges are blurred enough to be visible to the
naked eye (as seen in a video presentation) a similar amount of
blurring is not evident at the lower edge (or the upper edge) of
the UFO image, even though such blurring should be present.

(Note. the edges of all the building images in the picture are
smeared to the same amount by camera motion. We know it was
camera motion that created the smear because th image changes
position in the frame of the video from one frame to the next.)

>Also, would it not stand that as the UFO was being tracked by the CCD
>that its edges would not show any similar changes being a curved
>shape- especially as they would not align with any vertival or
>horizontal part of grid?

The bottom of the UFO image is not very curved. Any vertical
camera motion great enough to smear the horizontal edge of a
building should be enough to smear the bottom edge of the UFO
image. See attached GIF image Has anyone done the obvious and
tried to shoot a comparative bit of footage in that location, or
similar, to see if the same effects are reproducible?







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   Sep > Sep 2

                           Re: Black Helicopters?

From: Donald  Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 13:36:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 14:26:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Helicopters?


>Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:58:44 +0100
>To: updates@globalserve. net
>From: Keith Stevens <k. stevens@virgin. net>
>Subject: Black Helicopters
>
>Hello List
>
>Would someone answer a few questions that I have regarding
>'Black Helicopters'?
>
>I live in an area frequented by Military Helicopters, the
>standard British Army/RAF 'Camo' patterned types.
>
>One thing I've noticed is that they all look Black at a
>distance, some, depending on the light available and the angle
>of the sun can look Black surprisingly close. As for markings,
>if you have not got a pair of 'Binos' to hand, forget it you
>will not see any.
>
>Question - Has anyone actually asked people who have seen Black
>Helicopters where the sun was at the time, how far away the
>Helicopter was, what where the weather conditions, how familiar
>with Helicopter I. D. is/was the observer?
>
>My next point is that one of the Golden Rules of
>Surveillance/Covert Operations is 'Do nothing to draw attention
>to yourself'! With this in mind, flying around in Black
>Helicopters during the daylight hours is hardly discreet.
>
>If these Black Helicopters are really engaged on some form of
>covert mission they are sure drawing a lot of attention to
>themselves. Surely, if Helicopters are required for daylight
>covert ops they would be better suited, i.e. Civilian Colored
>and Marked?
>
>Am I missing the obvious?
>
>Comments please.
>
>Regards Keith.


Hi Keith,

In my opinion you have every right to be skeptical about the
so-called "Black Helicopters" that seem to be invading our
skies. Of course they are. More and more the air forces and
military of countries all over the planet are investing in
helicopters as part of their inventories. And since it makes
sense to camoflage them to make them less visible to the enemy
they are dark in colour, some of them black.

At night helicopters flying in formation [and not close
formation, I might add] display very weak lights due to a
problem with flicker vertigo, a situation which can arise when a
bright light shines through the turning rotor blades as seen by
the pilot. It was found to be a factor in quite a few chopper
crashes in the early years of the machine.

Don Ledger






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              Re: David Jacobs Target Of 'Skeptical Enquirer'?

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:24:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 14:39:59 -0400
Subject: Re: David Jacobs Target Of 'Skeptical Enquirer'?


>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:38:46 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: David Jacobs Target Of 'Skeptical Enquirer'?

>>Call it freedom? Or beyond the fringe?

>>Activity at Temple's Center for Frontier Science is the target
>>of a columnist.

>The Skeptical Inquirer is just the 'propaganda wing' of CSICOP.
>It's a low circulation rag and who cares what they think! I would
>simply ignore it as I'm quite sure David is doing. The worst thing
>that anyone could do would be to dignify those Medieval dolts with
>any kind of a response.

Low circulation, maybe, but high-profile, and read by some
influential academic types.

Some years ago, Philip Klass made trouble for a major university
that was going to host a UFO conference. Admittedly, he did it
by writing a letter, rather than by publishing something in the
Skeptical Inquirer, but he did do damage.

And, as we can see from this incident, Martin Gardner's
Skeptical Inquirer column, attacking Temple University, sparked
a news story in the Philiadelphia Inquirer, thus bringing
Gardner's accusations before a wide audience.

What's going on here, I think, is a dangerous form of
McCarthyism. Martin Gardner wants to stamp out all research that
he disagrees with, or at least to deprive it of its academic
connection. Think of where this could go, if it became a serious
campaign. Robert Jahn and his thoroughly scientific research
into psychokinesis might be booted out of Princeton. Stuart
Appelle, a psychologist who edits the Journal of UFO Studies,
might have to choose between his UFO work and his university
position. We've already seen John Mack threatened with censure
at Harvard, because he believes abductions are real, and had the
gall to say so very publicly.

And, in a much smaller, unpublicized event, Jodi Dean, a
political scientist at a small university, ran into trouble
because of a book she published on the political meaning of
abduction belief. After a brutal attack by Frederick Crews in
the NY Review of Books (which has a small but very elite
circulation), she was asked to defend herself before a faculty
committee. She hadn't said abductions were real, but she hadn't
said they weren't, either; plus she'd suggested that abductees
be given a sympathetic hearing. That was enough to get her in
trouble.

Maybe some "fringe" research is questionable, but we can trust
the Skeptical Inquirer not to make any distinction. Anything
that smacks of the paranormal is, to them, irrational in its
very nature, and needs to be stamped out. Let's hope Martin
Gardner won't have much influence, but just think what could
happen if he -- and others of his stripe -- went after the
scientsts on the Sturrock Panel! Some of them might well decide
that UFOs just weren't worth all the heat and
controversy.

Greg Sandow









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   Sep > Sep 2

                           Ashland County - Update

From: Kenny Young <task@fuse.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 14:25:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 14:52:00 -0400
Subject: Ashland County - Update

UFO Sighting: August 29, 1998 - 9:30 p.m.
Ashland/Wayne County, Ohio
____________________________________

Note: This UFO report is updated and revised due to additional
information from other witnesses to the sighting. The report,
which is posted on the website URL below, is accompanied by an
interesting JPEG drawing of the alleged object furnished by the
primary witness. This sounds like a good case. The address is:

http://members.tripod.com/~task_2/West_Salem98.htm

____________________________________

Initial Report

Background inquiries made regarding a UFO sighting reported to
Peter Davenport of the National UFO Reporting Center resulted in
the identification of additional witnesses to a peculiar oddity
happening near the Hidden Acres Campground in Ashland County,
Ohio.

Investigations began shortly after 4:00 p.m. on Sunday, August
30 when Mr. Davenport, NUFORC Director, advised of a sighting
from a resident of West Salem, Ohio (in Wayne County).

Description of object

A female resident of West Salem, Ohio contacted Davenport at
1901 hrs. (Pacific), Saturday evening (29AU98), and left a
detailed message about a peculiar cluster of four lights the
color of a "caution light" that were seen by her to flash very
brightly on several occasions, after which a "flame" poured out
from "behind" them.

Mr. Davenport contacted the witness at 2130 hrs. (Pacific) and
took an 8-minute report from her. She stated that she was on
State Route 42, south of Salem, OH, "near Ashland," when at
approximately 2130 hrs. (local), she witnessed a bright flash of
"yellow" light.  Her attention immediately was drawn to a
cluster of four yellow, circular (??) lights, that appeared to
her to be "two trees high" (above the ground).

According to the witness, the object "flashed" several times,
perhaps as many as five flashes.  After each flash, a long
"tail" of fire -- "like a jet's exhaust"-- was seen to shoot out
of the "back" of the object.  She said that the "exhaust"
appeared to be physically separated from the object.

The object appeared to be four amber or yellow lights situated
in an unwavering position, relative one to another.

After she had witnessed several bright flashes, she stopped her
car and stepped outside in order to get a better look at
whatever was causing the light.  While she was standing on or
near the roadway, the object flashed several more times, after
which she witnessed the "exhaust" again.

She detected no sound during the entire incident. The oddity was
last sighted as it moved off to the west from her position.  She
was not aware of any other vehicles on the road at the time of
her sighting.

Follow-up interview

The primary witness was contacted for a follow-up interview late
Sunday evening. She lives within the Hidden Acres resort, which
is a mobile-home park that also has a campground.

The object was alleged to have been descending toward the
campground, the witness informed, and she said that that it
exhibited definite movement in a 'downward' direction.

After the sighting, she stood outside by a dumpster and scanned
the sky for a few minutes.

"The thing reminded me of fire that emanates from the back end
of a fighter jet," she said. "It was really low, I had to duck
my head to a certain point to see beneath the trees, that's how
low it was."

She said the object could not have been a jet, however. "I had
my window down, I had no music playing. There was no sound, no
nothing. Just flame and flashing."

>From her estimate, the UFO looked like a series of 4-yellow
lights in a tight diamond shape which did not waver in position.
All four lights would go out at same time, then the four would
suddenly flash simultaneously (a real bright flash but not
casting shadows), followed by a big silent flame. The flame was
twice the width of the 4-lights and 4-times as long. She said
this action repeated between 5 to 8 times.

The fire, when first visible, was described as a blue color,
which became orange. There was no shape or object visible behind
the lights, flashes or flames.

"I thought it was a meteorite at first. I've never seen anything
like it before. It was very pretty, but also very weird," said
the witness.

Animal reaction noted

The following morning, she talked with a neighbor who lives near
the location of the sighting. Before telling her of the UFO
sighting, her neighbor explained how her Himalayan Cat went
'absolutely crazy' the previous evening, running to the door and
then hiding. She said this was not 'normal behavior' for the
cat. After being told of the UFO sighting, the neighbor then
suggested that the UFO be reported.

Corroborative testimony

During the investigative phase of this case, I placed a phone
call to the Hidden Acres Campground, and the employee in the
office informed that she, too, had seen something unusual the
previous evening.

"It was certainly strange," said the campground employee. "It
looked like a red light with flames coming out the back."

"It almost looked like a flame coming from it, but its hard to
say after I think about it. It could have just been the angle I
was at," she said, while informing that her husband also
commented on the oddity.

"We were doing safety checks at 11:15 or 11:20, just making sure
that the campgrounds were quiet and everything was normal. And
while driving around the grounds in the golf cart, we spotted
this red... unusual red light, it looked like it had a tail of
fire. I commented about it to my husband, and we later assumed
that it must have been the new cell-tower that was just put in
last week."

The campground employee rationalizes that a cellular telephone
tower was recently installed in the area, and that its
unfamiliar appearance caused her to have noticed it.

"The tower is right there in this same direction, so what I saw
was probably that tower," she surmised.

Strangely, however, she said that several campers also saw
something the same night and reported it to her sister who
resides near the campground.

"The weird thing about this is that these teenage campers had
came down screaming about it, and they wanted to report a UFO.
We just thought they must have saw the cell-tower too."

According to the employee, the teenagers had packed up and left
the campground earlier in the afternoon because they had to go
to school on Monday morning. "They described something that did
flash," said the campground employee, who informed that the
teenagers had told her sister of their sighting 'sometime last
night.'

The employee affirmed that there are no flashing or strobing
lights on the cell-tower.

E-mail correspondence was made with the primary witness, who was
asked to investigate the location of the cellular tower relative
to the position of the UFO. She did so, and advised that the
cell tower is approximately a 3/4 mile distance away from where
the flashing lights and the "flame" was spotted.

She said the tower shaft can be seen, even on a cloudy evening.
She stressed that she had no trouble discerning the cell-tower
to be a "ground object."

Additional witnesses

The primary witness added that she and her husband went outside
and talked with neighbors, and an 8 or 9 year-old girl told them
about a "fire that was in the sky last night."

Additionally, the witness reports that a four-year old boy also
said that he saw a UFO which was "like a ball, and had a tail,
then a ball, and another tail."

The following evening, I received a telephone call from a man we
will identify only by his first name, Dave. Dave was camping at
Hidden Acres during the event, and is the father of the
teenagers who witnessed the happening.

Dave explains that he is the father of 2-daughters, one 15 yrs.
old and the other 13 yrs. old. They regularly camp at Hidden
Acres, which he says is a 'very nice campground.' They were
walking with another 13 yr. old and adult when the saw a flaming
object in the sky.

His daughters thought that the object remained stationary, as if
hovering. It had blinking lights going 'around it' and was
orange in color, with flames.

Dave said they watched the object for several moments and then
it was 'just gone.' The adult was concerned that the object
might have been an airplane.

The time of their sighting was 10:30 p.m. Dave explained that he
later conferred with the campground employee, and determined to
her satisfaction that the object she saw was not the cell-phone
tower.

Dave also added that one-month earlier, his daughters thought
they saw a blue-colored object 'going back and forth' near the
campground.

Dave added that he will try to have a camera on-hand during his
next campout at Hidden Acres.

Further Investigations:

The Wayne County Sheriff's Office (330-287-5700) was contacted.
The female dispatcher who was on duty checked around the office
and knew of no UFO reports received from last night.

The dispatcher knew that Hidden Acres Campground is in Ashland
County, and that a call to the Ashland County office might be
beneficial.

The Ashland County Sheriff's department was then contacted
(419-289- 3911) and the dispatcher said that he had been on duty
the previous evening at 9:30 p.m. and did not have knowledge of
any UFOs reported. He suggested a call to the Ashland County
State Patrol Office be made.

The Ashland County OSP was contacted (419-289-0911) and the
dispatcher on duty did not have information regarding any UFO
sightings. He said that he, too, had been on-duty the previous
evening at 9:30 p.m. and their department sometimes handles
calls from this area.

Jet aircraft/military operation hypothesis:

Peter Davenport stressed several intriguing similarities this
present case has to the Michigantown, Indiana case of August 26,
such as the yellow color, happening on an abandoned road,
multiple lights seen in a formation, and silent operation. He
also cautioned that a similar case from Washington State in
August of 1994 and from July of 1995 involved a privately owned
Mig-19 that was performing nighttime aerobatics on the west side
of Puget Sound generated many UFO reports. The aircraft had two
"flame generators" mounted under the wings, the purpose of which
was to maximize the pyrotechnic effect of the flight.

To address the possibility of military aircraft maneuvers
happening in this area or airborne flares resulting from these
operations, an August 15, 1997 FOIA (Freedom of Information Act)
letter from the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) identified
two zones of special-use airspace within Ohio that are reserved
for military flight training. These areas are the Buckeye MOA
(Military Operations Area) and the Brush Creek MOA. The August
15, 1997 FOIA response from the FAA informed that military
flights within the closest zone, the Buckeye MOA, are restricted
beyond the 4:00 p.m. time-frame on Saturdays. In addition,
altitude restrictions prohibit flights from dropping beneath
5,000 feet. Furthermore, both zones are in Southern Ohio, and
such military traffic or flares within this area could not be
seen in the Northern Ohio area of Wayne or Ashland Counties,
which is more than 150-miles north of the Buckeye MOA.

Additional comments:

When asked if the sighting could have been caused by a
mischevious camper shooting off fireworks, the primary witness
felt it most unlikely. "I highly doubt it, as there was no
smoke, no smell, no sound, as it usually associated with
fireworks."

The remarks made by the employee of the Hidden Acres Campgrounds
and the father of the teenagers may provide corroboration of the
initial eyewitness report. The time frame of the campground
employee's sighting was placed at around 11:15 or 11:20, known
by the time that she and her husband were conducting a 'safety
check.' This is more than 90-minutes after the initial report
which described four amber or yellow colored lights, situated in
an unwavering position and exhibiting fiery conduct described as
an exhaust-like "flame" pouring out from an object. Details
acquired from Dave, father of some of the teenagers, explained
of a sighting around the 10:30 p.m. time-frame. This information
may help us fill in the time-gap to establish the possibility
that an object was indeed present in this vicinity, periodically
or otherwise, for at least a 90-minute time frame.

The teenagers also described 'blinking lights' and an
orange-colored object with flames. This is consistent with that
provided by the primary witness and campground employee.

The campground employee claimed to have been drawn to the 'red
light' when she had first seen it, and thought to have seen
'flames.' During a telephone conversation on Sunday August 30,
she rationalized that she had simply observed the light on the
cell-tower, which is in the same direction. However, according
to Dave, she changed her mind on Monday, August 31 and
determined that the light on the cell tower was not in the same
direction as the object which caught her attention.

The cell-tower is not equipped with a flashing or strobing
light, according to the the primary witness, the campground
employee and Dave.

The initial report of four amber, or yellow lights in an
unwavering position and exhibiting fiery conduct described as an
exhaust-like "flame" pouring out from an object (and happening
during repeated episodes) does not seem consistent with the
sighting of a light on top of a cell-tower. The witness comments
that the phenomenon resembled the fiery exhaust seen on a
jet-fighter, but noted its low elevation, silent performance and
lengthy 1-minute visibility in the residential area.

West Salem, Ohio is about 46 miles Southwest of Cleveland and
81.5 miles west of Youngstown.

Many thanks to Peter Davenport of The National UFO Reporting
Center for the initial details of this interesting report.

Filed;
September 2, 1998
Kenny Young
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/task/





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   Sep > Sep 2

             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 13:37:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 18:26:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

>From: Perry Mick <perrym@teleport.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

>>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>>Subject: Can Microwaves From A Satellite Cause Crop Circles?
>>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:17:18 -0400

>>"Further, the intensity of power in a microwave beam drops off
>>as 1/(range^2); by the time a weather radar beam hits a target
>>and bounces back, the antenna usually measures at most
>>milliwatts of power.

>I don't buy it at all that satellites could possibly be
>producing crop circles.


Mark, I don't believe that either, but why satellites?

How about some much larger, more powerful (and presumably
silent) craft at low altitude?

Someone showed me pix of a crop-glyph so intricate, detailed and
perfect that I cannot see how anyone on the ground could have
pulled it off. Unless the pictures were hoaxed (which I doubt
due to the source) then some flying craft must have projected
them somehow. My first thoughts gravitated toward secret
military high-tech experiments, although that brings in a host
of different problems.

Highly mysterious, I do not connect crop formations to UFOs. Not
yet anyway, so I know relatively little about them..

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                          Re: Phoenix Light Arrays

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 17:58:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 18:52:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Phoenix Light Arrays


>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:55:21 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Phoenix Light Arrays
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>For those of you interested in the controversy over the
>March 13, 1997 arrays of light videotaped at about 10 PM
>over Phoenix Arizona..... the controversy is about to heat up
>again.
>
>For the text of my report see:
>
>www.geocities.com/area51/stargate/5518/maccabee.html
>
>The figures discussed in the report are posted as gif
>images at:
>
>www.riskers.com/pictures/phoenix

The correct URL is:

www.riskers.org/pictures/phoenix/

Serge Salvaille






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                           Re: Black Helicopters?

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:01:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 21:03:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Helicopters?

>Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:58:44 +0100
>To: updates@globalserve. net
>From: Keith Stevens <k. stevens@virgin. net>
>Subject: Black Helicopters

>Hello List

>Would someone answer a few questions that I have regarding
>'Black Helicopters'?

Hi Keith,

You might want to try contacting Tom King. He's the webmaster
for the OVNI Chapterhouse website. (Not sure URL sorry!) Tom
was out one day videotaping those damn 'starlike' things that
are flying around up there (and that we're all videotaping in
broad daylight! ) and as he did so he also videoed several black
helicopters flying in a very tight formation -and at fairly close
range! I have posted several single frame captures from that
video to this list about a year or two ago.

Talk to Tom. You can tell him that I referred you.

Peace,

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
________________________________________________






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                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 16:53:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 20:31:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:21:38 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>In the two frames of the video
>where the building edges are blurred enough to be visible to the
>naked eye (as seen in a video presentation) a similar amount of
>blurring is not evident at the lower edge (or the upper edge) of
>the UFO image, even though such blurring should be present.

Bruce -

But if the camera is following the UFO, wouldn't you expect the
blur amounts of the UFO and the stationary building to differ?

I know you'll have a good answer for this, and I apologize if
you've posted one, since I just didn't spend the time to look
through the previous posts in the thread.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------







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   Sep > Sep 2

                          Re: Phoenix Light Arrays

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 19:02:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 20:34:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Phoenix Light Arrays


>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:55:21 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Phoenix Light Arrays
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>For those of you interested in the controversy over the
>March 13, 1997 arrays of light videotaped at about 10 PM
>over Phoenix Arizona..... the controversy is about to heat up
>again.

>For the text of my report see:

>www.geocities.com/area51/stargate/5518/maccabee.html

>The figures discussed in the report are posted as gif
>images at:

>www.riskers.com/pictures/phoenix

Ooopppssss..  error  (tilt). Should be:

www.riskers.org/pictures/phoenix






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              Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 18:03:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 20:54:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles


>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles
>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:33:09 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>In the model I presented previously, I simply postulated a beam
>about 0.1 m on a side from end to end. SPS research postulates a
>much larger beam from a larger emitter to a larger collector.
>Your suggestion is the focusing of a large beam to a small
>point. Obviously focusing can increase the wattage per square m
>at the receiving point, but the inverse square law still
>operates, and I believe the energy required does not alter. The
>implausibility of generating 10^20 W from any generator is at
>the crux of the argument, along with the implausibility of
>delivering it undetected.

Hi Mark...

AS far as having the energy to produce such a concentrated beam,
I'm not sure I can substantiate that the energy to do that is
available. However, please note the following information which
I found in a booklet entitled: 'Space, The New Frontier',
published by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration,
i.e., NASA...U.S GOVERNMNET PRINTING OFFICE: 1962 0 -637081...
Page 22, under heading:

TRANSIT -- Transit is a U.S. Navy program leading to an
operational sattellite system for world- wide all weather
navigation. The Transit operational system, consisting of four
satellites in proper orbit, will provide accurate data for
navigatonal fixes to ships and aircraft throughout the world on
an average of once every 1 1/2 hours.

Transit 1-B was launched April 13, 1960, carrying a payload
weight of 265 pounds. This included two ultra-stable
oscillators, an Infrared scanner, two telemetering receivers and
transmitters plus solar cells and nickel-cadmium batteries for
power. Transit 1-B proved the feasibility of an all-weather
navigation satellite system.

(Skipping two paragraphs which teal With Transit 11-A adn Transit
111-B, I will continue...)

Transit IV-A, launched June 29, 1961, carried the first nuclear
power system into space, a SNAP (System for Nuclear Auxillary
Propulsion) type generator. This SNAP generator, shaped like a
slightly elongated grapefruit, was developed by the Atomic
Energy Commission and the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration. It weighs about 4 1/2 pounds and is capable of
producint 3 watts of power, sufficient to run two Transit IV-A's
four transmitters. The SNAP genreator fuel is plutonium 238
which has a 'half-life' of 89.6 years. Its radioactivity will
decline only fifty percent during that period, so such a space
generator is theoretically capable of powering a space
transmitter for an extremely long time. To avoid any danger of
accidental radiation hazard, the casing containing the plutonium
238 was designed to be strong enough to survive the force of an
explosion (in case of mishap at launch) and to burn up on
reentry."

Now, Mark...My point is, if they powered this Transit IV-A
weather satellite with a neuclear powered generator, in June,
1961, what are their capabilities today? I doubt very seriously
that you will convince me that they have not imporved on the
amount of power needed to produce large amounts of power. We are
talking about 37 years of advanced science.

The Air Force also launched a project called: "WEST FORD," which
orbited millions of short fine copper wires, called dipoles,
creating a radio-reflective band around the world. The purpose
of this was to determine whether long-distance communications
could be accomplished by bouncing radio waves from the band...

Then there were the Weather Satellites as well: TIROS, NIMBUS,
AEROS, etc. They not only scanned the earth with television, with
variable focus, Zoomar lenses, for close-up views of particular
storm areas, they included Infrared and Microwave transmitters
and scanners.

>It will take some pretty solid evidence to convince me that
>reflection from the ionosphere will have a focusing effect. It
>seems to me that, at best, the ionosphere will act as a
>relatively flat mirror in regard to microwave beams of any
>reasonable diameter. Also, any such beams, as with the
>previously mentioned problem, would probably be easily
>detectable on radio, television, and by nuclear alert sensors.

I can only again ask, how much advancement has been achieved
since the early '60s? I personally think they have advanced many
years beyond what the public sciences are aware of and they
protect that technology in the name of National Security and
Military development to protect the United States...

I have not yet found the material describing the capabilities of
the early spy satellites to "read a newspaper" which I commented
on earlier. Give me time, and I will find this information and
post it here for you... I have it in my research material, I
just don't know exactly where it is.

Just my opinion Mark...

REgards, Mike







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             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 20:15:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 21:02:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?


>Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 13:37:10 -0700
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

>Mark, I don't believe that either, but why satellites?

>How about some much larger, more powerful (and presumably
>silent) craft at low altitude?

Hi, Larry. Satellites were someone else's suggestion.

>Someone showed me pix of a crop-glyph so intricate, detailed and
>perfect that I cannot see how anyone on the ground could have
>pulled it off. Unless the pictures were hoaxed (which I doubt
>due to the source) then some flying craft must have projected
>them somehow. My first thoughts gravitated toward secret
>military high-tech experiments, although that brings in a host
>of different problems.

I don't follow them much. You'd have to check on the known
hoaxers to see how they do that sort of thing.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------







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   Sep > Sep 2

                    Mars Global Surveyor - Status Report

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 02:50:54 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 22:03:42 -0400
Subject: Mars Global Surveyor - Status Report


Source: Florida Today

http://www.flatoday.com:80/space/today/090298c.htm

Stig

*******

FLORIDA TODAY Space Online

"Planet Earth's best source for online space news"

For September 2, 1998

Mars Global Surveyor Flight Status Report

NASA/JPL Release for Friday, August 28

A major milestone was reached on August 18th as the flight team
celebrated Surveyor's 500th orbit around Mars. As of today, the
spacecraft has completed 520 orbits and continues to transmit
nearly 500 megabits of science data per day back to the Earth.
Since the beginning of the summer-long science collection period
at the end of May, nearly 200 orbits worth of data have been
collected by Surveyor's instruments.

August's science activities were highlighted by the successful
observation of the Martian moon Phobos on two separate attempts
earlier in the month. This tiny satellite orbits the red planet
once every 7.7 hours and is a potato-shaped rock about the size
of Manhattan. During close approaches just after the low points
on orbits #476 and #501, the spacecraft was commanded to slew
its science instruments across the moon in order to obtain
detailed images.

Planning activities to ensure success of the operations were
complicated by the fact that no observations of orbit
determination quality had been made of Phobos for nearly a
decade. This lack of current and precise position data
significantly increased the difficulty of pointing Surveyor's
instruments. However, once the images were successfully
obtained, chief navigator Dr. Pat Esposito confirmed that Phobos
was within one kilometer of its predicted position.

Images and scientific commentary from the previous two attempts
and from a third observation attempt scheduled for Monday,
August 31th will be available in a press release on September
10th. Images will be posted to the project's web site that day.

Currently, the flight team is busy preparing for the temporary
suspension of science activities and the resumption of
aerobraking. The first maneuver to lower the low point of the
spacecraft's orbit into the upper fringes of the Martian
atmosphere will occur early in the morning on September 14th.
For the following five months, Surveyor will repeatedly fly
through the upper Martian atmosphere and use air resistance to
gradually shrink the size of the orbit. The goal is to reduce
the period from its current value of 11.6 hours to just under
two hours. Global mapping operations from this two-hour orbit
are scheduled to begin in April of next year.

After a mission elapsed time of 659 days from launch, Surveyor
is 223.34 million miles (359.43 million kilometers) from the
Earth and in an orbit around Mars with a high point of 11,098
miles (17,861km), a low point of 108.0 miles (173.8 km), and a
period of 11.6 hours. The spacecraft is currently executing the
P517 command sequence, and all systems continue to perform as
expected. The next status report will be released in
mid-September.


Use of this site signifies your agreement to the Terms of
Service updated February 1998.

Please e-mail comments or questions about Space Online to Editor
Mark DeCotis.

Contact Space Online Manager Jim Banke to inquire about becoming
a sponsor.

This World Wide Web site is copyright =A9 1998 FLORIDA TODAY.







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                            Mars Multimedia Pages

From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 03:03:38 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 22:10:30 -0400
Subject: Mars Multimedia Pages

Source: Detroit Free Press

http://www.freep.com:80/news/science/captionqtvr2.htm

Links are preceded by asterisk.

Stig
*******

Click your mouse on the image and drag it around to explore the
surface of Mars

The Mars Pathfinder rover Sojourner is seen in the so-called
monster panorama released by NASA Wednesday, July 9, 1997. The
first chemical analysis of the martian rock nicknamed Barnacle
Bill, to the left of Sojourner, shows that at least one rock on
the dusty red planet is rich in silica, the quartz material found
in sand. Sojourner is expected to analyze "Yogi," the larger
stone in the upper left on Wednesday. (AP Photo via Jet
Propulsion Labratory)

*Get the QuickTime plug-in here.


MULTIMEDIA SPECIALS

*Mars: Fourth rock from the sun

*An overview of the Pathfinder mission

*Mars rocks


QUICKTIME MOVIES

*A look at the rocks of Mars

*How the rover is controlled

*How the camera works

*How the Sojourner rover analyzes rocks

*Partial color panorama

*Full black and white panorama







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   Sep > Sep 2

                   Black Hole Time Travel Theory Disputed

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 03:20:45 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 22:13:45 -0400
Subject: Black Hole Time Travel Theory Disputed


Source: BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/sci/tech/newsid_163000/163334.stm


Stig

*******

BBC News Online: Sci/Tech
Wednesday, September 2, 1998
Published at 20:06 GMT 21:06 UK


Time Travel Theory 'Full Of Holes'

Scientists appear to have dashed hopes that black holes might
provide a way to travel around the universe by jumping through
the fabric of space and time. Our science editor Dr David
Whitehouse reports

Two Israeli scientists appear to have found out that if anyone
tried to use a black hole this way they would be ripped apart.

A black hole is an object from which light cannot escape. It can
be the extremely dense remains of a collapsed star.

Professor Stephen Hawking and Sir Roger Penrose showed that
inside every black hole there is always a thing that scientists
call a "singularity".

Here matter and also space and time is condensed to a point. The
normal laws of physics break down.

Some scientists have speculated that under certain conditions
such a singularity might be a tunnel across the universe.

If it was possible to go through the hole in a spaceship you
could jump across the universe in an instant, or even emerge in
a completely
different universe.


Ripped To Shreds


Tsvi Piran and Shahar Hod of Jerusalem's Hebrew University used
computers to simulate both how a black hole forms and how the
singularity behaves.

The simulations showed that an electrically charged black hole
creates a new kind of singularity which forms an impassable
barrier.

This work is not the final word on this idea. Many scientists
say that even if it were theoretically possible to use a black
hole this way it would be impossible to do so practically.


=A9





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   Sep > Sep 2

                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 21:19:30 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 22:48:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage
>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 16:53:28 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>Bruce -

>But if the camera is following the UFO, wouldn't you expect the
>blur amounts of the UFO and the stationary building to differ?

>I know you'll have a good answer for this, and I apologize if
>you've posted one, since I just didn't spend the time to look
>through the previous posts in the thread.

>------
>Mark Cashman

Mark,

Think of it this way: A human is videotaping a UFO and all of a
sudden the buildings surrounding same "shake" from camera
movement. Wouldn't you expect the UFO to shake the same degree
if, like the buildings, it was physically there, in the picture
frame?

Camera lens here, distant objects there. Lens moves, objects
move. All objects.

Give it up, people. The Mexico City UFO video is a hoax.

That, or Mexico City suffered a small earthquake just as the UFO
was flying by. Yeah, that must be it! That would explain why the
buildings move and the UFO doesn't.


Hey, whatever it takes, right?

Dennis








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                        Re: Little Green Burning Men

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 04:16:12 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 22:42:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Little Green Burning Men


Source: Wired News

http://www.wired.com:80/news/print_version/culture/story/14747.html

Go to the page for relevant links!

Stig

*******

updated 4:25pm 2.Sep.98.PDT

Little Green Burning Men
by Niall McKay

4:00am 1.Sep.98.PDT

Up to 15,000 hipsters, primed to tune in, camp out, and burn
on, are beginning to make their way to Nevada's Black Rock
Desert for the week-long Burning Man Festival. The groupies hail
predominantly from the West Coast, and their annual return to
the desert marks what may be the world's largest tribute to
alternative self-expressionism. This year's theme is "The Great
Above, Aliens, and the Space Age."

Since its humble beginnings on San Francisco's Baker Beach in
1990, Burning Man has experienced explosive growth. What began
as a casual gathering of self-confessed weirdos has become a
massive undertaking with a million-dollar price tag, forced to
assume the organizational trappings of a small city.

"Last year we lost US$250,000 dollars because the local
officials caught us off guard," said Crimson Rose, performance
and administration manager for Limited Liability Company (LLC),
the festival's organizers with a history of run-ins with locals.

Last year, officials of Washoe County, Nevada, where the Black
Rock Desert lies, didn't grant Burning Man a festival license
until the day before the the bash began. Then county officials
confiscated $300,000 in admission fees to pay for the 44 fire
and medical personnel the permit required.

To afford the Burning Man community a foothold in Washoe,
earlier this year an LLC member known as Flash, moved to
Gerlach, became manager of the Black Rock Saloon, and set up the
Gerlach Chamber of Commerce. He helped convince the locals to
view Burning Man as a business opportunity instead of a drain.

The LLC now has a team of 15 volunteers training with the US
Bureau of Land Management to make sure the remote site isn't
harmed. The LCC also has mustered its own police force -- called
the Black Rock Rangers -- and medical personnel. The company
also has several licensed pyrotechnicians on staff and onsite.

In recent years, Burning Man has attracted, much to the chagrin
of many old timers, a certain crowd of rubberneckers: yuppies
who cruise into the desert with their four-wheel-drive suburban
assault vehicles to watch naked hippies frolic. Rose said she
wants more visitors to "participate rather than spectate."

Although torching the 40-foot man will still be the focal point
of the festival, this year there will be 430 interactive camps,
with themes ranging from alien invasions to Catholic
confessionals.

The event has always drawn artists who like to work on a large,
if not larger-than-life, scale. "It's one of the only places
where you can build an artistic installation on a very large
scale or do performance art that involves fire," Rose said.

This year's new attractions include the Nebulous Entity, a
30-foot luminous float that sucks people up, absorbs their
information, then spits them back out; The One Tree, a giant
installation that will spit water by day and fire by night; and
a 12-foot dandelion with a blast furnace at its base and glowing
glass rods at the top.

"Each year the theme camps get more sophisticated," said Evil
Pippi, Burning Man's media maven of the playa, clearly referring
to the complexity, rather than the flavor of the exihibits.

Private individuals, not companies, run most of the
installations, theme camps, and performance activities. In
recent years, organizers have had to resist many offers from
commercial interests.

"Companies tend to view Burning Man as the perfect marketing
event. But we don't want it to become a trade show like Earth
Day," said Evil Pippi.

For example, Spin magazine planned to distribute free magazines,
and Nantucket Nectar wanted to airlift in two hundred cases of
free juice. Both were discouraged from using Burning Man as a PR
stunt.

"We don't want people to stand in line for an ATM to buy a
life," said Rose. "People tend to deal with each other on a
different level if there is no money involved. Besides, if
you're naked, where are you going to keep your plastic?"

But what is Burning Man really about, if not to some extent, a
free-market economy? Visitors have to make up there own mind,
Rose said. "What is so exciting is that we really don't say what
Burning Man is. We want you to tell us what it means to you."

But it's not for everybody. You got to be willing to survive in
the desert for 72 hours, she adds.

Check on other Web coverage of this story with *NewsBot

Wired Digital offers HotWired, Wired News, HotBot, Wired
Magazine
online, Suck, and NewsBot.

Copyright =A9 1994-98 Wired Digital Inc. All rights reserved.






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   Sep > Sep 3

                           Re: Black Helicopters?

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:28:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 05:52:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Helicopters?


>Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:58:44 +0100
>To: updates@globalserve. net
>From: Keith Stevens <k.stevens@virgin. net>
>Subject: Black Helicopters

>Hello List

>Would someone answer a few questions that I have regarding
>'Black Helicopters'?

>I live in an area frequented by Military Helicopters, the
>standard British Army/RAF 'Camo' patterned types.

>One thing I've noticed is that they all look Black at a
>distance, some, depending on the light available and the angle
>of the sun can look Black surprisingly close. As for markings,
>if you have not got a pair of 'Binos' to hand, forget it you
>will not see any.

>Question - Has anyone actually asked people who have seen Black
>Helicopters where the sun was at the time, how far away the
>Helicopter was, what where the weather conditions, how familiar

Very perceptive... but so what? I've seen helicopters painted
black with no markings at close distance... tens of feet. Sun
location irrelevant.

Also viewed some through binoculars. Whether black helicopters
are related to UFO sightings or not, they exist.






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   Sep > Sep 3

                September UFO Update at The Temporal Doorway

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:10:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 05:33:07 -0400
Subject: September UFO Update at The Temporal Doorway

The following are the new UFO materials added to The
Temporal Doorway:

1/8/81 Renato Nicolai, Trans-en-Province, France, 5:00
PM - A circular trace was found and examined by police
authorities, the French space agency, and civilian investigators
shortly after a retired construction worker observed a UFO
which landed on his property. Final version of a detailed
analysis of the trace and when it was formed.

The volume of UFO reports varies over time, forming waves,
flaps, and concentrations. A graph is presented courtesy
Larry Hatch and his excellent *U* database.

The following two cases show objects similar to the
Delphos KS object, whose trace is among the most
famous CE-II cases:

4/21/57 Mrs. Gilberte Ausserre and Mrs. Rolande Prevost,
Montlucon, France, 1:45 AM - Hemisphere with luminous skirt.

7/20/64 Anonymous Government Clerk, Illinois State Route
101, Illinois, 4:45 AM - Object shows a variety of luminous
configurations.

Additional cases added to analysis of a consistent feature of a UFO.

Check out this and more from

        http://www.temporaldoorway.com/whatsnew.htm

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------






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   Sep > Sep 3

             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:28:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 05:49:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?


>Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 08:39:46 -0700
>From: Perry Mick <perrym@teleport.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

>>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>>Subject: Can Microwaves From A Satellite Cause Crop Circles?
>>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:17:18 -0400
>>To: updates@globalserve.net

<snip>

>>"Further, the intensity of power in a microwave beam drops off
>>as 1/(range^2); by the time a weather radar beam hits a target
>>and bounces back, the antenna usually measures at most
>>milliwatts of power.

>I don't buy it at all that satellites could possibly be
>producing crop circles, but does a laser or maser power really
>drop off as 1/(range^2)? It seems this wouldn't apply to a
>coherent source. The 1/(range^2) applies to something radiating
>equally in all directions, so the wavefront spreads out as it
>moves away from the source.

XCoherent or not, as you move away from the source while staying
within the beam the power per unit area (intensity) drops off as
1/2. You can see this for yourself by realizing that the total
power over the whole beam remains constant (ignoring absorption
or scattering in the atmosphere). However, _every_ beam
diverges, gets bigger in diameter, with increasing distance from
the source. The divergence angle tells you how fast the beam
gets bigger. Coherent sources (laser) have smaller divergence
angles than incoherent sources, but they still diverge.

Now consider that the beam area grows like the surface of a cone
with distance measured from the cone apex. If the cone angle is
A in radian measure (degrees times pi/180), then one can write D
= diameter of beam = Do + RA where Do is the initial diameter
(antenna size) and R is the range. If A = 0.001 radian and R = 1
kilometer, then RA = 1 meter. If the initial beam diameter were
also 1 meter, then at 1 km the beam dameter would be 2 m.
Typical spotlight beam has a divergence of about 5 degrees=
0.087 radians. Typical laser has divergence of 0.001 radians.
For light/microwaves of wavelength L the approximate full
divergence angle (first zero of the Airy function) Aa = 2.4
L/Do. Thus for 1 mm waves (300 Ghz = 3E11 Hz) and a 2.4 m
diameter antenna the cone angle is about 0.001radian.

The area of the end of the cone is pi x A^2 x R^2. Hence the
average power per unit area over the area of the beam at
distance R is P/(area) = P/(pi A^2 R^2), from which we
immediately seen the 1/R^2 fallof of intensity within the beam.
(A more correct approach would use the actual radiation pattern
of the antenna, but the 1/.R^2 would still apply along any
distance measured radially outward from the source.)





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             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:28:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 05:59:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?


>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 18:19:15 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

<snip>

>= 100 cm in diameter? This depends upon the wavelength. Lets
>assume for simplicity 3000 MHz radiation with a wavelength of
>(3E10 cm/sec)/(3E9 Hz) = speed of light/frequency = 10 cm. The
>divergence angle from an antenna is approximately given as
>3(wavelength) /diameter (full angle) so in this case it is 3 x
>10 cm/(100 cm) = 0.3 (radians) (This is an approximation for a
>>circular antenna or "dish"; other shapes may have lightly
>different radiation patterns). "Simply" multiply the divergence


Correction:  I should have used 2 (wavelength/diameter)
for the divergence.   Doesn't make much change in the final
conclusion, however,


>3.7 E11 kW ..... I do believe this far exceeds the power output
>of th Grand Coulee Dam or any nuclear power station. Now, it is
>true that the assumpion of constant power over the beam area is
>not true. The power drops off "at the edges" , i.e., is
>concentrated at the center. So cut the power level in half and
>get closer to the "true answer." To improve the situation one

<snip>

>The power requirement goes up as th square of the distance if
>the antenna size stays the same. Hence at 22,000 miles one would
>need nearly 50,000 times more power.... or the same power with
>an antenna abou 220 times bigger in diameter.







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                        Liquid Metal Calls The Shots

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 05:43:16 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 06:06:07 -0400
Subject: Liquid Metal Calls The Shots


Source: Discovery Channel Online

http://www.discovery.com/news/briefs/brief3.html


Stig

*******

'Liquid Metal' Calls the Shots


Heavy metal's got a brand new bag, and it comes in liquid form.

A new metal alloy, called Vitreloy, is the first ever produced
whose atoms remain in a liquid state -- called an amorphous
structure -- which gives it unprecedented properties of
strength, hardness and weight.

According to today's issue of the journal Materials World, most
alloys crystallize into planes as they cool, which in turn makes
them susceptible to fractures, defects and other wear. But the
secret to Vitreloy is all in the cooling.

Researchers at Cal Tech and then at the Howmet Corporation in
Greenwich, Conn., discovered a way to mix mostly zirconium with
beryllium, titanium, copper and nickel, and then cool it slowly
so that it doesn't turn into solid form: liquid metal.

As a result, Vitreloy is twice as hard as titanium, for example,
with three-quarters the density of stainless steel and a
chrome-like smoothness.

"It's actually a high-density liquid," says Mike Tenhover, an
engineer for Amorphous Technology International, which purchased
the license from Cal Tech and markets golf clubs made of the
alloy under the name, Liquid Metal Golf. "It was actually
designed specifically for golf. But there are a variety of other
applications as well that we're exploring."

Tenhover says they are developing Vitreloy under a U.S. Army
contract for anti-tank weapons. At the same time, they are
looking into the production of watch cases that would replace
nickel and other metals, which can cause allergic reactions.

To take advantage of Vitreloy's smoothness and hardness, they
have successfully tested the medical use of the metal in
hip-replacement joints.

Steve Hill, editor of Materials World, says, "The key is the
process that allows this metal to form the way it does. I can
see a whole host of uses, including aerospace applications,
where you need incredible strength and a lightweight nature,
like airplane frames, for example,
although it remains to be seen what will be cost effective to market."


By Christopher Jones, Discovery Channel Online News

DISCOVERY ONLINE

Copyright =A9 1998 Discovery Communications Inc.






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                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 00:16:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 06:30:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage


>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage
>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 16:53:28 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:21:38 -0400
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>In the two frames of the video
>>where the building edges are blurred enough to be visible to the
>>naked eye (as seen in a video presentation) a similar amount of
>>blurring is not evident at the lower edge (or the upper edge) of
>>the UFO image, even though such blurring should be present.

>Bruce -

>But if the camera is following the UFO, wouldn't you expect the
>blur amounts of the UFO and the stationary building to differ?>

>I know you'll have a good answer for this, and I apologize if
>you've posted one, since I just didn't spend the time to look
>through the previous posts in the thread..

>Mark Cashman


Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify this matter
These two frames are NOT successive frames. The are about 100
frames apart, as I recall. What is unique about these is that
they occur when the camera is goung through a very rapid, short
duration upward motion (so that th images move quickly
downward). The camera "recovers" imediately. That is the
stationary frames are within 2 frames of the smeared ones. Now,
you are correct that if the camera were panning with the UFO its
edges could be sharp while the building edges are smeared.
However, in this case it would require a panning motion that
lasts at most 1/15 sec and probably more like 1/30 sec. This
would be an 'accidental pan' that just happened to be equal to a
random camera vibration.

But, if it _were_ an accidental upward motion that just happened
to 'stop' the UFO image motion, i.e., a momentary pan, then it
would mean that the UFO jumped upward some distance (several
feet if it were beyond the building) in 1/30 sec and then
immediately returned to its initial position (altitude).

I should point out that, although these two frames show the
effect the clearest, there is a lesser effect throughout the
video. The camera used a fast shutter and this made it difficult
to see even smear on the building edges in almost all frames but
these two.

There is a more obvious problem when the UFO image passes over
the second wind sock. But this only becomes apparent in
stabilized versions of the video. You then see that it makes a
double bounce lasting a fraction of a second at the very time
that the building images undergo a rotation of about 1.5
degrees. This bounce, we believe, is a result of the failure of
the hoaxer to take into account the rotation, even though he/she
has accounted for the x-y motion of the camera due to hand
vibration as he/she placed the UFO image into the video frame
according to some planned scheme of travel for the UFO.






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                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footag

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 02:49:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 06:45:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footag

>Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 21:19:30 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>Mark,

>Think of it this way: A human is videotaping a UFO and all of a
>sudden the buildings surrounding same "shake" from camera
>movement. Wouldn't you expect the UFO to shake the same degree
>if, like the buildings, it was physically there, in the picture
>frame?

Dennis, that isn't what Bruce seemed to be implying he was
talking about. It seemed to me that he was talking about motion
blur, which is why I asked the question.

>Camera lens here, distant objects there. Lens moves, objects
>move. All objects.

You're not thinking clearly about the model of the situation if
this is how you interpret it. Camera here, distant object there,
camera pans to follow UFO, distant, near, whatever non-UFO
object is more blurred and perhaps blurred in a different
direction than the UFO, depending on UFO motion, camera motion
and user tracking accuracy.

Disentangling shake, pan, autofocus instability, and other
effects from a video is not, it seems to me, a simple matter. I
certainly intend to avail myself of Bruce's expertise in this
and find out everything I can about how he does that. That's one
reason I'm here.

Every investigator wants to know how conclusions were
determined, to judge their validity and to be able to avoid
being taken in by a hoax when we have to make those judgements
ourselves. And if Bruce missed something, he won't mind the peer
review any more than any other scientist does.

>Give it up, people. The Mexico City UFO video is a hoax.

Naturally I and anyone else interested in the subject would like
to know the details of how Bruce and Jeff arrived at their
results and whether we should agree with them and why. There's
nothing wrong with discussing or even disputing them. That's
science, like it or not.

>Hey, whatever it takes, right?

Dennis, I trust you're not intending to imply that I am gullible
or a "believer". I'm sure you know better.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------







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                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

From: Scott Caput <scaput@shadow.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 00:32:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 06:36:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage


>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:21:38 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage
>>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:34:47 PDT

>>Dear List,

>>I agree that the Mexico footage is more than likely a hoax but I put
>>this to those who may know . . .

>>Given that that this footage appears to have been shot on a camera
>>that uses a CCD imager to record, and this CCD imager is a grid array
>>of vertical and horizontal receptors, is it not possible that the
>>changes noted in the vertical and horizontal edges of buildings are a
>>direct result of the image movement across the receptor boundaries?

>The spacings between "receptors" (the picture elements or pixels
>in the CCD array) are much smaller than the distance over which
>the building edge blur occurs. In the two frames of the video
>where the building edges are blurred enough to be visible to the
>naked eye (as seen in a video presentation) a similar amount of
>blurring is not evident at the lower edge (or the upper edge) of
>the UFO image, even though such blurring should be present.
>
>(Note. the edges of all the building images in the picture are
>smeared to the same amount by camera motion. We know it was
>camera motion that created the smear because th image changes
>position in the frame of the video from one frame to the next.)
>
>>Also, would it not stand that as the UFO was being tracked by the CCD
>>that its edges would not show any similar changes being a curved
>>shape- especially as they would not align with any vertival or
>>horizontal part of grid?

>The bottom of the UFO image is not very curved. Any vertical
>camera motion great enough to smear the horizontal edge of a
>building should be enough to smear the bottom edge of the UFO
>image. See attached GIF image Has anyone done the obvious and
>tried to shoot a comparative bit of footage in that location, or
>similar, to see if the same effects are reproducible?


Please allow me an answer the obvious.....

If the camera was following the UFO across the landscape
(tracking), the same effect would be evident on the border of the
UFO as is evident in the stationary objects. The UFO would
appear stationary (or almost stationary) in the camera frame.

Scott






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                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 17:00:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 06:22:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage


>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:21:38 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage
>>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:34:47 PDT


Hi Bruce, hi All,

I've been away from my UpDates posts for a couple of weeks
and I haven't read all of the back messages yet so please
forgive me if I'm bringing up something that's already been
covered. <G>

>>Dear List,

>>I agree that the Mexico footage is more than likely a hoax
>>but I put this to those who may know . . .

I agree based on what Jeff and Bruce are presenting as evidence.
But I too still have some questions.

>The bottom of the UFO image is not very curved. Any vertical
>camera motion great enough to smear the horizontal edge of a
>building should be enough to smear the bottom edge of the UFO
>image. See attached GIF image Has anyone done the obvious and
>tried to shoot a comparative bit of footage in that location,
>or similar, to see if the same effects are reproducible?

Bruce, could the lack of 'smearing' on the UFO as opposed to the
vertical edges of the building be accounted for by 'tracking' of
the UFO by the cameraman? If his motion matched the objects
perfectly then it would be expected that the object being
tracked would remain in focus while all else around it shows
motion blur.

Also, is this smeared surroundings/focused UFO thing consistent
throughout the entire video? You have presented the above few
frames as an example but I'm curious if it is consistent
throughout the entire sequence. If the anomaly appears -only- in
these few frames then maybe accurate tracking of the object
could explain the discrepancy. (Forgive a curious amateur all
his questions. I'm just picking your brain and trying to learn!
<G>)

Again, if any of my questions have already been covered then do
a 'Gilda Radner' with it. -'Never Mind!'- <VBG>

Peace,

John Velez, Inquiring citizen
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
________________________________________________






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             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 00:10:21 PDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 06:49:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?


>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 18:19:15 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>>Subject: Can Microwaves From A Satellite Cause Crop Circles?
>>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:17:18 -0400
>>To: updates@globalserve.net

Dear List,

It's good to see that my thoughts on microwaves from satellites
as a possible cause of 'crop circles' is generating a good deal
of discussion. Plus I have played a bit of a Devil's Advocate
about it. The only way a satellite could cause a 'crop circle'
that I know of for sure would be if it crashed in a crop field.
But, the answer is out there and observable 'circle' creations
have occurred in guarded fields so that tends to rule human
physical contact in the non-hoaxes. So, what of Occam's Razor
here?

What prompted me initially to raise this topic was that I had
recalled reading (and I apologise for not recalling the source
publication) that some one/body/group/company/agency had posited
that it should soon be possible to supply power to earth using
microwaves generated by a solar collecting satellite.

What concerned me at the time was the thought of all that
intense energy being beamed down would likely have a
catastrophic effect on the environment around the receivers -
should the required amount of energy be producable in the first
place. The workaround would have to be in beaming to very
isolated places - at sea, desert areas, etc. This may also be
uneconomical due to various factors _unless_, of course, you can
control the focus to get maximum yield.

Then, naturally, one would think this concept would not have
been put forward unless someone, somewhere, somehow has done a
lot of work on the idea. If this was as thoroughly researched as
it needed to be then more than likely they had done the work on
the focussing of such a beam, or know where it might already
have been done by the military or other body, and what the
results are.

If someone has figured out how to focus then the chances are
they have mastered precise positional control as well.

If anyone on the list can recall the news item from about a year
ago I would appreciate your input.

Regards,

Leanne Martin
Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia







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                Re: Review - Friedman Lecture, Brisbane, Oz,

From: Kathleen Anderson <KAnder6444@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 01:15:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 07:31:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Review - Friedman Lecture, Brisbane, Oz,


 [Occasionally, some messages manage to hide themselves
 in my 'InBox'. My apologies to Ms. Anderson for the
 tardy posting of the following.--ebk]


>Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:09:15 +1000
>To: UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Allan Clayton <aclayton@vision.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Review - Friedman Lecture, Brisbane, Oz, 08-12-98

>Has anyone else in Australia been to see his lecture?

>He is actually coming to Tassie [mania] so I thought that I
>might go along for a look but from the sounds of it, it might be
>a bit of a waste of time...

>Emma, could you reply via e-mail so i could discuss it a bit
>more with you please!  My e-mail is aclayton@vision.net.au.

>bye
>alf


Dear Alf,

On behalf of Stan Friedman I would like to say that of all
people, He is one of the hardest working people in the UFO
field.  It's easy to play arm chair critic about some of the
lecturers as I am sometimes guilty about.

It takes a lot of courage to give up a lucrative job as a
physicist to venture out on a wild goose chase with UFOs. And
remembering, Stan got into this when it wasn't the popular thing
to do.  I have been an MC at a couple of conferences and must
admit Stan is one of the most approachable speakers there is. He
is always open to listening to what people have to say without
acting snobby. He doesn't run off with a clique of other
speakers but stays and talks to the audience.

No one has all the answers, Stan Friedman included, but I have
to admire the man for keeping at it, digging into information
and having the conviction to circulate it to the public. We
don't have to agree with what someone has to say about the UFO
phenomenon, for we are all babes in the woods when it comes to
what the truth is. But its nice to know that some people aren't
afraid to get up on a stage and and try to education the public
about what possibilities can exist.

Personally, we as individuals must make a decision what value a
speaker might have. After all is said and done,  you might learn
something new and that's not  so bad is it?

Kathleen Andersen
MUFON State Section Director
Seattle Washington








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   Sep > Sep 3

                           Re: Black Helicopters?

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:03:26 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 09:56:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Helicopters?


>Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 13:36:32 +0100
>From: Donald  Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Black Helicopters?


>Hi Keith,

>In my opinion you have every right to be skeptical about the
>so-called "Black Helicopters" that seem to be invading our
>skies. Of course they are. More and more the air forces and
>military of countries all over the planet are investing in
>helicopters as part of their inventories. And since it makes
>sense to camoflage them to make them less visible to the enemy
>they are dark in colour, some of them black.

The American military, for a long time now, has been using
"flat" paints for their aircraft to prevent sunlight
reflections. Rather than the large numbers that used to be on
them, those markings have been significantly reduced, again for
defensive purposes. Anything that can reflect light, provide
any sort of "heat" signature, or anything that would aid the
enemy aquisition of the aircraft has been removed, repainted or
significantly reduced.

>At night helicopters flying in formation [and not close
>formation, I might add] display very weak lights due to a
>problem with flicker vertigo, a situation which can arise when
>a bright light shines through the turning rotor blades as seen
>by the pilot. It was found to be a factor in quite a few
>chopper crashes in the early years of the machine.

>Don Ledger

As possibly the only helicopter pilot on this list, and probably
the only one with a great deal of formation flying time, I will
note that Don is correct about "flicker vertigo" which can also
be cause by sunlight through the rotorblades and the rotating
beacon on the back of helicopters.

We had dim lights on the helicopters, not to prevent flicker
vertigo but because bright lights drew enemy fire and bright
lights wrecked night vision. The small dim light were on top of
the helicopter and on the tail boom to help keep the spacing in
a formation. But, you have to remember there were also the
normal nav lights, those red and green ones on the wings of
airplanes and the sides of helicopters.

Anyway, the point is, that at night, in formation, there were
many lights on a helicopter.


KRandle






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                Re: Review - Friedman Lecture, Brisbane, Oz,

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 09:20:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 10:00:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Review - Friedman Lecture, Brisbane, Oz,

>From: Kathleen Anderson <KAnder6444@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 01:15:43 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: A word about Stan Friedman

<snip>

>Dear Alf,

>On behalf of Stan Friedman I would like to say that of all
>people, He is one of the hardest working people in the UFO
>field. It's easy to play arm chair critic about some of the
>lecturers as I am sometimes guilty about.

>It takes a lot of courage to give up a lucrative job as a
>physicist to venture out on a wild goose chase with UFOs. And
>remembering, Stan got into this when it wasn't the popular thing
>to do. I have been an MC at a couple of conferences and must
>admit Stan is one of the most approachable speakers there is. He
>is always open to listening to what people have to say without
>acting snobby. He doesn't run off with a clique of other
>speakers but stays and talks to the audience.

>No one has all the answers, Stan Friedman included, but I have
>to admire the man for keeping at it, digging into information
>and having the conviction to circulate it to the public. We
>don't have to agree with what someone has to say about the UFO
>phenomenon, for we are all babes in the woods when it comes to
>what the truth is. But its nice to know that some people aren't
>afraid to get up on a stage and and try to education the public
>about what possibilities can exist.

>Personally, we as individuals must make a decision what value a
>speaker might have. After all is said and done, you might learn
>something new and that's not so bad is it?

>Kathleen Andersen
>MUFON State Section Director
>Seattle Washington

I will second Kathleen's comments. I've attended several events
at which Stanton Friedman was a speaker, and found his
information to be valuable. However, there certainly room for
discussion regarding his conclusions, as many other researchers
have looked at some of the same "evidence" and drawn different
conclusions.

If I had any criticism, it would be that Stanton's presentation
has been given so many times that you could almost recite it
along with him if you attend a few events. This isn't
necessarily a negative, depending on how often you get to his
lectures. I should add that I found his first video to be nearly
identical to his presentation given a couple of years ago, and
while I haven't completed a full comparison I would suspect that
his CD-ROM contains much the same presentation.

Friedman is one of a few investigators who are doing their
research full-time, and relying on the income from lectures and
book sales to survive. Some may see this as a reason to question
his veracity, but I believe that criticism is often
self-serving.

Steve







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                             NIDS Essay Contest

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:11:31 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 10:20:47 -0400
Subject: NIDS Essay Contest

List,

If this has been posted before, please forgive me for repeating
it. But Robert Bigelow's National Institute of Discovery Science
(NIDS) is sponsoring an essay contest with three $5000 winners.
The subject matter of the contest will change every 75 days or
so. The deadline for the first round was in August, so a new
theme should be announced shortly. For additional details, see:

http://www.accessnv.com/nids/essay/shtml

Dennis







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   Sep > Sep 3

             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:45:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 13:27:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?
>Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 00:10:21 PDT

>What prompted me initially to raise this topic was that I had
>recalled reading (and I apologise for not recalling the source
>publication) that some one/body/group/company/agency had posited
>that it should soon be possible to supply power to earth using
>microwaves generated by a solar collecting satellite.

>If anyone on the list can recall the news item from about a year
>ago I would appreciate your input.

Leanne -

My original post on this subject referenced a web site which
contained information on this subject.

http://www.skypoint.com/members/rab/sps.html

According to that document:

"The result of this study was a design for an SPS which
consisted of a 5 x 10 kilometer (3 x 6 mile) rectangular solar
collector and a 1-kilometer-diameter (0.6 mile) circular
transmitting antenna array. The SPS would weigh 30,000 to 50,000
metric tons."

Note that the Saturn 1B payload to LEO (Low Earth Orbit, 185 km)
is 18,600 kg or 18.6 metric tons, so quite a large number of
very large rocket flights would be required to emplace such an
object.

(http://solar.rtd.utk.edu:81/~mwade/lvs/saturnib.htm)

"... The peak intensity of the microwave beam would be 23
milliwatts per square centimeter (148 milliwatts per square
inch). The US standard for industrial exposure to microwaves is
10 milliwatts per square centimeter,while up to 5 milliwatts per
square centimeter are allowed to leak from microwave ovens."

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------







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             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:42:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 13:34:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?
>Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 00:10:21 PDT


>>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 18:19:15 -0400
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

<snip>

>What prompted me initially to raise this topic was that I had
>recalled reading (and I apologise for not recalling the source
>publication) that some one/body/group/company/agency had posited
>that it should soon be possible to supply power to earth using
>microwaves generated by a solar collecting satellite.

>What concerned me at the time was the thought of all that
>intense energy being beamed down would likely have a
>catastrophic effect on the environment around the receivers -
>should the required amount of energy be producable in the first
>place. The workaround would have to be in beaming to very
>isolated places - at sea, desert areas, etc. This may also be
>uneconomical due to various factors _unless_, of course, you can .
>control the focus to get maximum yield.

Catastrophic effect? Nah! The beam spot would be rather small by
design (tens of feet to hundreds of feet a most) and would be
collected by special devices to collect same. The biggest
environmental effect would be smal heating of the atmosphere
within the beam.

_Of_course_, there is the fact that there would be an increase
in _thermal_pollution_ of the earth (ignored by even the Gore
types) would occur by virtue of the fact that any power obtained
from a solar powered satellite would add to the net power input
to the earth and ..... contribute to raising the overall
temperature.

So, yes it would be "free" energy...don't have to use a
consumable (chemical or nuclear) on earth, but it would
ultimately have an impact (sorry about the Rush...and others)
but not a "catastrophic" local impact (potentially a
catastrophic global impact... depending upon how much power is
beamed to the earth.)

>Then, naturally, one would think this concept would not have
>been put forward unless someone, somewhere, somehow has done a
>lot of work on the idea. If this was as thoroughly researched as
>it needed to be then more than likely they had done the work on
>the focussing of such a beam, or know where it might already
>have been done by the military or other body, and what the
>results are.

From the _conceptual_ point of view, the idea of power beaming
is no big thing. From the _practical_ point of view th main
fundamental problems are (in addition to design, construction,
launch, orbit mechanics, etc.)

A) a source of power (sunlight converted to microwave in some
way)

B) creating a beam that can be controlled to deliver the power.

Typically one thinks of perhaps a geosync satellite that remains
over a fixed location on earth (would have to be "above" the
equator) beaming power to a fixed area on earth. The beam
diameter would be big enough so that even at the multimegawatt
to gigawatt level total beam power the intensity (power/area)
would be small enough so that birds and airplanes, etc. wouldn't
get fried. Consider that 10E9 watts over 100 x 100 m area (10E4
m^2 = 10E8 cm^2) corresponds to only 10 w/cm^2. Not particularly
dangerous (the microwave oven example used 1.3 kW/cm^2, 100
times more intensity).

As far as creating agriglyphs is concerned, the technical
ability to beam power is much too "coarse" to create the find
designs in the fields. So even if there were some sort of power
beaming satellite it would not be able to draw pictures in th
fields. The best it could do would be to hold the center of the
beam at a fixed point on the earth's surface (to within some
error..... which would mean that the receiving area would
probably have to be up to 50% larger than the beam area).






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                       P-1947: Re: MUFON's Moribundus

From: Francis Ridger - slk <slk@EVANSVILLE.NET>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 08:38:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 13:58:38 -0400
Subject: P-1947: Re: MUFON's Moribundus

At 06:33 PM 8/25/98 -0700, Jan Aldrich wrote:

>I think in the beginning it was thought that CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS
>was going to be an alert and investigative network.

>However, we could establish a list with investigators and
>researchers. Communication could be by E-mail and a list.
>Obviously, we are basically talking about MUFON here when we
>talk about an investigative network.

Hi Jan, List,

Sorry I overlooked this email during a busy period earlier. This
is really good, Jan. This is exactly what I intended Current
Encounters to be. There are plenty of other lists similar to
what we DON'T need to operate. And with your/our idea everybody
on the list knows what is going on, not just investigators &
researchers.

I spent an hour or more last evening talking with Walt Andrus.
He called ME and I was surprised how much he was in-tune* with
all the needs we've been talking about. I just wish I could get
him (and the coalition) to support Peter Davenport's effort more
and help him get it fully staffed. Also, getting calls means
nothing if FI's are not dispatched to investigate. Naturally,
only screened, important cases need to be investigated further
than a phone call.

I also mentioned to Walt that we need a "crisis line" for FI's.
He agrees MUFON needs a new Director of Investigations and
Deputy Director of Investigations. Ray Fowler (like myself)
doesn't have the time to direct investiagtions. And T. David
Spencer is unable to process casework since he his paying job
now requires more time.

I suggested:

1) We help him find someone to replace T. David Spencer, the
Deputy Director of Investigations. Someone to process the
paperwork of UFO investigations. David also was inputting
sightings in the database, but that's another story. 2) Find a
Director of Investigations who can operate a "crisis line" type
operation, whereby someone can advise FI's (especially FIT's,
Field Investigator Trainees) in the field DURING or even BEFORE
an investigation. This needs to be someone VERY knowledgeable in
that area. Someone with years of experience.

I didn't mention it to Walt, but I thought about it later: We
discussed putting the FI Manual on a website and he mentioned
that, even though it wasn't a big seller, it was some needed
revenue. Later I thought, FIT's are required to purchase it
anyway, so why would placing it on a web site hurt? VERY FEW of
these sell outside the training field. No money would be lost
and UFOlogy would have a great tool which, even the FI's &
FIT's, would use online. They could even produce blank forms and
even reports.

Folks, we CAN work together and restructure what we already
have. FI's in the field who do not want to follow important
guidelines need to be corrected or replaced.

Walt wanted me to take the DOI or DDI position, but I just don't
have the time. However, I will help all I can.

Finally, he was a little concerned about NICAP and yet another
UFO organization. I told him that I was authorized to set up a
web site only and provide Best Evidence in the tradition of
NICAP, guided by peers with years of experience. MUFON, CUFOS &
FUFOR can and should link to the NICAP site as a main source of
information and training, and even help provide data to fill
needed gaps.

The internet became a threat and put over three dozen state
newsletters out of business, killing the publication of my UFO
Intelligence Newsletter two years ago. It also has an effect on
ALL UFO publications, even the MUJ & the IUR. But it is HERE TO
STAY!!! We just have to use it to our advantage. If we're really
serious about doing something about UFOlogy, the internet is the
greatest tool we could have even imagined. We all can provide
the FREE information, and somehow find something to sell in hard
copy to make the funds we need.

Francis Ridge
NICAP Site Coordinator


InterLink Site Directory:
http://www.evansville.net/~slk/InterLink.html

* [Couldn't be because a certain UpDates Moderator was
   forwarding Bcc:s to MUFON HQ? Nah! Couldn't be..... --ebk]







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   Sep > Sep 3

                           Re: Black Helicopters?

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 09:57:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 13:36:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Helicopters?


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:03:26 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Black Helicopters?

>>Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 13:36:32 +0100
>>From: Donald  Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Black Helicopters?

>>Hi Keith,

>>In my opinion you have every right to be skeptical about the
>>so-called "Black Helicopters" that seem to be invading our
>>skies. Of course they are. More and more the air forces and
>>military of countries all over the planet are investing in
>>helicopters as part of their inventories. And since it makes
>>sense to camoflage them to make them less visible to the enemy
>>they are dark in colour, some of them black.

That's the long and the short of it.

>The American military, for a long time now, has been using
>"flat" paints for their aircraft to prevent sunlight
>reflections. Rather than the large numbers that used to be on
>them, those markings have been significantly reduced, again for
>defensive purposes. Anything that can reflect light, provide
>any sort of "heat" signature, or anything that would aid the
>enemy aquisition of the aircraft has been removed, repainted or
>significantly reduced.

Yep.

>>At night helicopters flying in formation [and not close
>>formation, I might add] display very weak lights due to a
>>problem with flicker vertigo, a situation which can arise when
>>a bright light shines through the turning rotor blades as seen
>>by the pilot. It was found to be a factor in quite a few
>>chopper crashes in the early years of the machine.

>>Don Ledger

Fact.

>As possibly the only helicopter pilot on this list, and probably
>the only one with a great deal of formation flying time, I will
>note that Don is correct about "flicker vertigo" which can also
>be cause by sunlight through the rotorblades and the rotating
>beacon on the back of helicopters.

Nope -- at least one other (who has more time sitting in POL
waiting for hot gas than either one of us has total -- and I
have around 45 hundred hours) -- than myself, concurs. In fact
it is standard operating procedure in most military units to
extinguish strobes and rotating beacons in a formation flight,
except for the trail aircraft. Also -- these light will be
extinguished in poor weather conditions, manipulated for signal
purposes, and must not flash, or turn and flash between two
prescribed internationally agreed numbers.

>Anyway, the point is, that at night, in formation, there were
>many lights on a helicopter.

But not all the time, and all of them _generally_ recognizable
to anyone who has seen them before. I think that's fair.

>KRandle

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

--
Explore the Alien View? <Updated 1 September>

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.








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                       P-1947: Re: MUFON's Moribundus

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@KONSULTING.COM>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:51:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 14:15:42 -0400
Subject: P-1947: Re: MUFON's Moribundus

At 08:38 AM 9/3/98 -0500, you wrote:

<snip>

>I didn't mention it to Walt, but I thought about it later: We
>discussed putting the FI Manual on a website and he mentioned
>that, even though it wasn't a big seller, it was some needed
>revenue. Later I thought, FIT's are required to purchase it
>anyway, so why would placing it on a web site hurt? VERY FEW of
>these sell outside the training field. No money would be lost
>and UFOlogy would have a great tool which, even the FI's &
>FIT's, would use online. They could even produce blank forms and
>even reports.

FITs are only required to purchase the FI manual if they can't
find one to borrow, and want to take the FI exam to have the
"Trainee" label removed from their membership card.  There is no
actual requirement that forces the FITs to take the exam, and
many probably signed up originally to just get the MUFON Journal
(I don't recall that the "Associate" membership was an option
when I first signed up).

>Finally, he was a little concerned about NICAP and yet another
>UFO organization. I told him that I was authorized to set up a
>web site only and provide Best Evidence in the tradition of
>NICAP, guided by peers with years of experience. MUFON, CUFOS &
>FUFOR can and should link to the NICAP site as a main source of
>information and training, and even help provide data to fill
>needed gaps.

>The internet became a threat and put over three dozen state
>newsletters out of business, killing the publication of my UFO
>Intelligence Newsletter two years ago. It also has an effect on
>ALL UFO publications, even the MUJ & the IUR. But it is HERE TO
>STAY!!! We just have to use it to our advantage. If we're really
>serious about doing something about UFOlogy, the internet is the
>greatest tool we could have even imagined. We all can provide
>the FREE information, and somehow find something to sell in hard
>copy to make the funds we need.

The genre is going through a period of adjustment caused by the
Internet, as are a number of other publications.  This is not
unique to UFOs, and so far there is no end in site as the
capabilities of the "net" become expanded.

There is a great amount of data that could be published by the
three main organizations on the Internet, but that is their
source of income and few detailed articles are actually placed
on line.  Many major newspapers have put their entire newspapers
on line daily, but they are able to sell ads on the web pages
that provided the needed revenue.  Most people still like to
hold their reading material in their hands, so the computer
isn't yet a real threat.  But, that could change in the future
as a new generation of computer oriented children come of age.

IMO, there is no way that a monthly publication can compete with
the immediacy of the "net".  If there is a sighting, it is
broadcast around the world on the Internet and it's "old news"
by the time that any publication goes to press.  Any report that
is "episodic" in nature would probably fit into this category.

On the other hand, in depth analysis of such sightings can be
held for publication, and most require some sort of assurance
that the submission is exclusive to that publication, so the
information should be relatively "new".  To maintain a position
in the marketplace, many publications will have to identify the
needs that are not being addressed on the "net", and
strive to fill that gap.  Those that do will survive.

My 2-1/2 cents worth.

Steve






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                              Filer's Files #35

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:00:36 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 13:39:46 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #35

Filer's Files #35-1998,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George  A.  Filer,     MUFON  Eastern  Director,
September 3, 1998,   Majorstar@aol.com  609 654-0020

The SECRET KGB UFO FILES will be shown on US television Sunday, September 13,
1998, at 8:00 PM (et/pt).  This is an extraordinary TNT special featuring
never before--seen footage of actual gun camera film of Soviet fighter
aircraft chasing UFOs.  It shows Soviet aircraft apparently shot down by UFOs.
A crashed saucer and an alien autopsy.  Although I personally was not able to
authenticate the film, some of it is the best I have ever seen.  The film is
narrated by Roger Moore who is best known for his James Bond roles.  The KGB
agents information correlates well with our own intelligence data.  First time
interviews with experts who have seen the documentation and know the truth.
You will see what the Soviet's were really hiding behind the Iron Curtain.

GEORGIA:

CHATSWORTH: On August 22, 1998, State Director Tom Sheets, ASD Mark Ausmus
accompanied by Barbara Sheets and Amy Seville traveled to investigate UFO
activity reported in the area of the mountains and valley surrounding
Chatsworth.  The witness indicated that on August 8, about 9:30 PM he was
relaxing on his patio deck facing north, which is at 3,200 feet altitude.
There was a cloud cover, but no precipitation.  As he sat there, he noticed a
glowing yellowish orb descend below the cloud cover in the northeast, 1/2 to 1
mile from his home, and over the adjacent mountain terrain.  The orb seemed to
have a glowing halo around it with a black space in the center.  It hovered
for a short period, no more than 10 seconds, then vanished completely.  He
indicated that the apparent size was that of a basketball held at arms length.
He added, he had made past observations of anomalous lights and objects in the
wilderness.  An additional objective of this visit was to survey the
surrounding valley and ridge lines as a lot of activity seemed to originate
there.

COHUTTA WILDERNESS:  This area to the NE is part of the Chattahoochee National
Forest which is closed to all vehicular traffic and only backpackers, hikers,
and horse traffic allowed.  This area is crisscrossed by hiking trails that
cover some of the steepest and most rugged terrain in Georgia.  It includes
the Jacks River and Conasauga River basins.  This 200,000 acres of terrain is
classified as an official wilderness area.  This Field Investigator (FI) has
packed into the area for camping on numerous occasions and can attest to its
remoteness for an arm of the Blue Ridge Mountains.   These four FI's, along
with David and Michelle Sheets, set up a surveillance beginning about 9:00 PM.
Within a short time, a bright glowing object, brighter than a star, appeared
above the ridgelines to the NE and descended quickly into the mountainous
terrain, disappearing from sight.  It was observed to be about 5 to 10 degrees
above the ridges, and was more intense than Jupiter's magnitude.  Mark Ausmus
indicated it looked yellowish/white, and displayed a slight 'wiggle' as it
descended out of sight.  David Sheets indicated he observed some reddish tint
to the light.  Event duration was about one to two seconds.  The weather was
clear and mild, CAVU, slight haze toward the far mountains, calm to light
breeze.  While not as spectacular as some events reported in this area, it
seems to support the statements of the witness and other individuals in Murray
County concerning anomalous lights in the night sky.  Thanks to Walter Sheets.

MICHIGAN

I want to share the sighting I had here in June at 11:30 PM, when I saw a
small black object spinning counterclockwise between the houses across the
street.  It spun a few seconds, then it rose up in the air and disappeared.
Then, suddenly a large oval shaped object moved into view.  It was bright like
a full moon but oval in shape.  It moved slowly, then a similarly shaped black
one moved over it so that you could see half the oval disc and make out half
of the black.  Then, as they moved together overhead, the light disc and the
dark one separated and came together a couple more times before they
disappeared at high speed.  During this time, I was frozen on my driveway.  I
had no control over my body- I couldn't run or yell out.  When it disappeared
over the house, I ran in and dragged my Mom out to see.  I spent the night
outside until the wee hours hoping it would return.  Right after that, my
dishwasher became very hot inside even though we had not run it.  Two days
later, my son and I woke up with strange stains on our feet and on our
pajamas.  I will never forget that beautiful sight that night.  MUFON
investigators came to my house and investigated my sighting.  It felt good to
be able to tell someone about it right after it happened.  The local police
referred me to them saying, that they take UFO reports seriously!  How
refreshing!  I also called the Air Force to ask if they had any sightings.
They said no, and asked why.  I said I saw something I can't explain.  The man
I talked to said they are not allowed to take any UFO reports.  I said OK and
just as I was about to hang up he said "but I am very interested in what you
saw."  This was the third time I have seen UFOs.  The first two happened in
Hawaii when 20 of us saw a huge triangular ship fly right over our heads.  The
Air Force told us it was a weather balloon.  Oh well.  Thanks to John Thompson
ISUR, and Mari at 82.detroit-06.mi.dial-access.

SAGINAW: Jeff Westover of Mt. Pleasant witnessed Black Apache-style Helicopter
and UFO sightings Thursday, August 20, 1998, at 5:50 PM EST, while I was
traveling south on I-75 Jeff watched a huge 75 feet wide reflective silver orb
quickly descend out of the sky from the east to the west in a stairstep-type
descent.  This descent was far too fast for a helicopter.  It came down over
the Zilwaukee Bridge over the Saginaw River and descended behind some trees.
An odd long thin horizontal pole or boom, as long as the orb's width, seemed
to project from the orb's trailing edge, giving it a helicopter-type
appearance.  Thanks to Jeffrey S. Westover.

INDIANA:

MICHIGANTOWN: Kenny Young writes that The National UFO Reporting Center,
received a report from a man who advised of a sighting in Clinton County.  Two
witnesses observed a "circle of yellow lights descend vertically, then rotate,
tilt upward, and disappear back up into the sky."  The witness is an
instructor of electronics, said he was driving north at 10:15 p.m., on Highway
29 on Monday, August 24, 1998.  He and his nephew spotted an UFO low over the
roadway near their car.  "We watched these lights drop out of the sky at 25 to
30 yards distant, it was 'powerline' high.  "It resembled the bottom of a
helicopter with two rows on the bottom of the base, but it rotated and looked
like a solid line of lights."  It rotated 90 degrees and tilted vertically and
then it went up and disappeared."  The nephew said, the object appeared to him
to be of a circular shape.  He also thought the yellow lights had a blue
tint."  The object was first seen low to the ground near the roadway.  It then
looked as if it was starting to 'go up' and in the split second that he leaned
forward to watch the object, it rapidly ascended and disappeared.  He drove on
for a short distance and then stopped his car in attempt to see the object
again.  The duration of the event was around 5 or 6 seconds, and no sound was
heard.  There had been a severe storm earlier in the evening, at the time of
the sighting the sky was clear and many stars were visible.  The temperature
was about 60 degrees.  The Frankfort Police Department and the Clinton County
Sheriff's Office (765-654-5563) were contacted but they had no UFO reports.
Michigantown is about 42 miles north of Indianapolis, Indiana.  Thanks to
Kenny Young -- public relations director of Tri-States Advocates for
Scientific Knowledge, T.A.S.K.

ILLINOIS

RIPLEY: On Thursday, August 20, 1998, at 10 p.m., the Bowman family were
working late outside and talking with some neighbors when, all of a sudden, a
strange light appeared in the sky."  'I saw two lights in the sky, quite a way
apart,' said Patrick Bowman.  'They went out and moved over behind the trees,
no more than a second or two.  They went on again, then dropped again to the
right behind another tree.  When they were back on, they were three-
dimensional, like a three-winged craft with lights at the bottom.  The lights
went on in sequence, then they went back off in sequence, then they shot up
through the top wing.  That's all I saw.  It wasn't anything from here.  It
made me nervous.'   Ripley residents saw the UFO "just after ten o'clock."
The object was also sighted in Rushville, Pittsford and Mount Sterling.  "An
Illinois State Trooper, who did not wish to be identified, also saw the
strange lights west of Mount Sterling.  He declined to comment other than to
say he saw them," Ripely is on Highway 24 approximately 246 miles southwest of
Chicago.

CHAMPAIGN: A UFO was sighted 45 minutes earlier by a woman in Champaign,
(population 63,502), a city 137 miles south of Chicago.  Mrs. J.C. reported,
"I had left my house around 9:15 PM, Thursday.  My daughter lives only three
blocks from me and called on the phone and told me to look at the light in the
sky."  Mrs. C. did so and saw a strange white light in the direction of
Ripley.  Thanks to UFO Roundup #35, 8/31/98, Joe Trainor Editor, Gerry Lovell
and Errol Bruce-Knapp.

TEXAS

FORT WORTH: On August 24, 1998, Texas Ufologist Mike Harman reports "I had
just gone to the break room at 1:25 PM, on the second floor when I spotted a
daylight disk or diamond-shaped object.  I was looking west out the office
window.  The object was very dark and moving very fast.  It swayed back and
forth rapidly gained speed and then slowed.  "The object looked like a diamond
or disk and was small, one-quarter the size of a pencil's diameter at arm's
length.  It was just under a thunder cloud, and as I watched for about three
minutes, it moved into another area of the sky that was full of white fluffy
clouds.  It made some turns as I watched.  It would turn in one direction and
then turn back in, as if correcting and aligning with its original direction.
I observed it until I was no longer able to see or make it out in the sky."
Thanks to Mike Harman and Skywatch International Inc.

OREGON:

Beaverton:      On August 28, 1998, at 12:03 AM, my friend and I were laying on
my
trampoline when we witnessed the most shocking thing of our lives.  I was
looking up at the sky, there were light clouds out but we could still see the
stars, when I noticed a moderate orange/yellow light coming through the trees.
I quickly told my friend to look and we watched the rectangular object flying
600 feet from the ground.  It looked like a glowing animal of some sort, like
a large bat flapping it's wings but it was just in a moderate flash, it had to
have been going about 550 M.P.H. We watched the object fly almost directly
above us until when it was in the distance it stopped, made three circles, and
then disappeared.  We thought it had left until we saw it shoot across the sky
at about 2000 M.P.H. We weren't sure if we would see it again but we were so
scared we did not do anything.  Then all of a sudden it shot back towards us
going 3 times faster and crossed the whole sky in a split second and then was
gone.  We haven't seen it since but we will keep you updated about any other
encounters.  Please believe us because nobody else will.   Thanks to Jason A.
Cole and Matthew V. Stone, jaydamac@yahoo.com (Jay)

CANADA:

ONTARIO: Robert Mussell reports "I saw an odd thing in the northern sky on
August 26. 1998, and I'd thought I might ask for some opinion here?  Around
11:30 while walking along a beach about a mile north west of Buffalo, NY, I
saw an odd mass of light in the sky.  The moon was not up, and there were no
clouds in the sky.  To describe what I saw.  While walking along the beach,
which ran east to west, I saw a strange "pulsing" to the north.  At first I
dismissed the phenomenon as someone shining lights in the sky.  However, after
several minutes, as the lights grew to cover a quarter of the sky, I was
forced to abandon this explanation.  The "Lights," were in two sections.  To
the West was a "ribbed region," that was motionless.  The larger section,
appeared to move like a wave.  "Ripples" seemed to pulse across the northern
sky.  After several minutes, the lights had moved southward, until it was
overhead.  These "ripples" seemed to move with constant frequency and
brightness from the South.  Over several minutes, the lights faded, a residual
arc was left denoting the farthest southern approach of the lights.  Then the
lights retreated back below the northern horizon.  Was this the Aurora
Borealis?"  Editors Note: Recent solar storms likely excited the Aurora
Borealis.  Thanks to Robert Mussell at Barahir@aol.com and Skywatch
International Inc

UNITED KINGDOM

TELFORD, ENGLAND:  I had another sighting at 11:40 PM last night, September 1,
1998.  I was just closing my window to go to bed when I saw something flying
in my direction.  It silently glided along the same flight path and height
about 800 meters as my sighting of two diamonds in October of last year.  The
shape was like a squashed pyramid but more like just the top half of a
diamond.  At arm's length it was about 1 1/2 inches wide by about 1/2 inch
high.  There was a red light on the left of the object and a green one on the
right.  Between these was a white strobe light.  The white strobe light lit
the underside of the object going across from the red to the green light.  I
went to bed and about five minutes later Thanks to: Adam at adam@adl.enta.net
(Adam)

IS OUR ENVIRONMENT GETTING WORSE?

Frogs and salamanders that have lived on the Earth for 350 million years are
dying in alarming numbers in many areas of the world.  In many pristine areas
of the world frogs are dying from unknown causes.  Half the Nicaragua's frogs
have disappeared and large populations in pristine areas of Minnesota our
dying or being born with alarming birth defects.  These are indicator animals
that tells us the worlds environment is in trouble.

The Los Angles Times reported steadily warming ocean is devastating marine
life along the coast of California.  Researchers at the Scripps Institution of
Oceanography said, "From microscopic plankton and forests of kelp to the fish,
birds and mammals that depend on them for sustenance marine life is dying."
The researchers, who studied extensive water temperature records dating to
1916, documented an overall temperature increase of 2 degrees Fahrenheit in
coastal waters along the length of the West coast in recent decades.  The new
blanket of warmer water is slowly smothering ocean life by preventing more
fertile deep Pacific currents from rising to the surface.  This blocks the
source of nourishment for the rich menagerie of marine life for which the West
Coast is known.  The warmer waters also enable fish and animals to migrate
northward from tropical waters and edge out California's native species.  The
decline in plankton which form the basis of the marine food chain had severe
consequences for many larger species.  Abalone, Squid, and Chinook salmon are
almost gone.

Rueters reports a melting Antarctic glacier could lead to the collapse of the
West Antarctic Ice Sheet, causing global sea levels to rise as much as 20
feet, researchers said.  Satellite radar images between 1992 and 1996 of Pine
Island glacier in West Antarctica showed the glacier is shrinking.  "It is
important because it could lead to a collapse of the West Antarctic Ice
Sheet," said study leader Eric Rignot, a radar scientist at the Jet Propulsion
Laboratory in Pasadena.  "We are seeing a glacier melt in the heart of
Antarctica."  Antarctica has about 90% of the world's glacial ice.  Scientists
say this data from remote and stormy West Antarctica could be the first real
evidence that some of these massive glaciers might actually be retreating
rapidly.  "The continuing retreat of Pine Island glacier could be a symptom of
the West Antarctic Ice Sheet disintegration ," said Craig Lingle, a
glaciologist at the University of Alaska in Fairbanks who is familiar with the
study.  "If the sheet did collapse, it would push sea levels up throughout the
world, with regions near sea level experiencing more flooding and faster
erosion," Lingle said. From Reuters 7/23/98

The New York Times  reported "The AIDS virus is spreading rapidly in many
parts of the world.  Africa is particularly hard hit with as many as 25% of
adults aged 15 to 49 years being infected with the virus that causes AIDS.
Around the world the disease rivals the greatest epidemics of history.  The
United Nations claims that more than 30 million people now carry the HIV
virus.  Over 20 million live in Africa where the disease is spreading at an
ever increasing rate.  Botswana and Zimbabwe a quarter of the adults are
infected with 13 countries having over 10% of the adult population infected.

In Europe although AIDS infection is comparatively low, a population implosion
worries a graying Europe.  Birth rates in many countries are in a rapid,
sustained decline.  Never before except in times of war and plague have birth
rates fallen so low for so long.  No country in Europe is having enough
children to even replace its population.  The citizenry is growing old and
there are not enough children to replace them.  For example, in Italy is the
first nation in history to have more people over the age 60 then there are
people under 20.  This year Germany, Greece, and Spain will also pass the
magic divide.  There is also an alarming reduction in the sperm count among
young men contributing to the lower birth rate.
Editors Note: Its almost as if an outside force is working to reduce the
population in Europe and Africa.  These trends are alarming and indicate
trouble ahead for our civilization.  It struck me that all these environmental
problems may not all be man-made.

FIREFLY STEALTH AIRCRAFT

Aerospace Writer Bill Rose responds to last week's article on the alleged
triangular NATO aircraft.  May I add a few comments to the recent report on
Firefly.  Firefly  (proper name Lampyridae) is a stealth interdictor aircraft,
semi-secretly built by Messerschmitt-Bolkow-Bohm, (MBB) now Daimler Benz
Aerospace in Germany.  Designed by DR Gehard Lobert, this fighter sized
aircraft is essentially a second generation F-117A.  Two demonstrators were
flown at the Overberg Test Range in South Africa during the late 1980s, but
the project was placed on the back burner and has probably been canceled.
The British HALO (High Agility, Low Observability) program is definitely not a
smokescreen for any program called Firefly, because HALO is itself highly
secret.  The exact nature of HALO remains classified, but BAe (British
Aerospace) and the MoD (Ministry of Defence) have acknowledged that small
demonstrators are being test flown.  HALO is believed to involve an ongoing
series of UCAV (Uninhabited combat Air Vehicle studies, although HALO may
include manned prototypes based on US designs like the canceled A-12A Avenger
11.  Reports indicate the existence of several large experimental LTA (Lighter
Than Air) craft that operate within UK airspace, although there is nothing
which shows a link to BAe.  These airborne vehicles are considered to be
experimental platforms for new sensor technology or exotic bi-static radar
systems.  Pinning down a suitable base for trials of these craft is difficult,
but a strong possibility is RAF West Freugh, a highly secret facility in
Western Scotland.  The suggestion that these platforms are equipped with sonic
and psychotronic devices cannot be anything more than speculation.  Non-lethal
weapon programs have received substantial black budget funding in many
industrialized countries, although little technical information on these
projects has become public knowledge.  NATO pilots fly each other's aircraft
on a fairly regular basis (including recent Russian jets) and these programs
sometimes stretch into the black domain.  RAF and Luftwaffe pilots flew the
F-117A before it was declassified.  However, there is no evidence NATO teams
are operating secret stealth triangles with exact measurements of 184 feet
from tip to tip.  Thanks to Bill Rose. bill.rose@virgin.net

FREE REAL ESTATE RELOCATION SERVICES:

As a special aid to our readers, we can help you at no cost to you with free
relocation information and consulting services.  If your planning to sell or
buy a home or property and would like a top flight real estate agent from the
top companies give me a call at 609 654-0020 or e-mail me at
Majorstar@aol.com.

Filer's Files Copyright 1998 by MUFON EASTERN DIRECTOR all rights reserved.
Readers may post items from the Files on their websites or in newsgroups
provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the
date of issue in which the item first appeared.

Send your letters to George A. Filer at Majorstar@aol.com.  If you wish to
keep your name confidential please so state in your E-mails.







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   Sep > Sep 3

                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:42:25 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 15:16:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage


>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 00:16:09 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

<snip>

>There is a more obvious problem when the UFO image passes over
>the second wind sock. But this only becomes apparent in
>stabilized versions of the video. You then see that it makes a
>double bounce lasting a fraction of a second at the very time
>that the building images undergo a rotation of about 1.5
>degrees. This bounce, we believe, is a result of the failure of
>the hoaxer to take into account the rotation, even though he/she
>has accounted for the x-y motion of the camera due to hand
>vibration as he/she placed the UFO image into the video frame
>according to some planned scheme of travel for the UFO.

Bruce or others,

This kind of discussion makes me think it would be useful to
have a basic estimate of the degree of hand-held camera jitter
to be expected, in terms of amplitude and frequency. Has anyone
made power spectra of this: amplitude of jitter versus
frequency, over a frequency range from, say, 0.3 cps to 30 cps?
Maybe it's been done before within photography (Bob?), or within
health sciences, such as analyzing the degree of smearing on a
time exposure of a stationary distant point-source of light at
night, but using high-speed movie film in order to extract the
power spectra, and analyzing the amplitude variations in the
vertical and horizontal directions separately; then averaging
such tests over different persons, but presumably excluding
oldsters with the shakes. The graduate student in mind would be
urged to do these tests and analyses with cameras of different
weight, but starting with the typical cam-corder weight, and
with/without holding the camera against one's head. (Big thesis
project!)

This would measure the combined effect of translational jitters
and angular-variation jitters, but the angular variations should
greatly dominate, so that "amplitude" of jitter could be
measured in terms of fractions of a degree, vertical and
horizontal, versus frequency.

Although the excitement of a real UFO video-taping would likely
enhance the magnitude of one's jitters then, but be difficult to
test in the lab, it probably wouldn't much change the shape of
the power spectrum of jitters.

So if a hoaxer feeds oscillations into his complex camera setup,
one could at least check to see if he fed in unrealistic ones
that deviate greatly from the power spectrum of a handheld video
camera, thus giving away his hoax.


Jim Deardorff







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              Re: David Jacobs Target Of 'Skeptical Enquirer'?

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 98 12:01:16 PDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 15:13:52 -0400
Subject: Re: David Jacobs Target Of 'Skeptical Enquirer'?


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: David Jacobs Target Of 'Skeptical Enquirer'?
>Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:24:45 -0400

>>Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:38:46 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Subject: Re: David Jacobs Target Of 'Skeptical Enquirer'?

>>The Skeptical Inquirer is just the 'propaganda wing' of CSICOP.
>>It's a low circulation rag and who cares what they think! I would
>>simply ignore it as I'm quite sure David is doing. The worst thing
>>that anyone could do would be to dignify those Medieval dolts with
>>any kind of a response.

>Low circulation, maybe, but high-profile, and read by some
>influential academic types.

>Some years ago, Philip Klass made trouble for a major university
>that was going to host a UFO conference. Admittedly, he did it
>by writing a letter, rather than by publishing something in the
>Skeptical Inquirer, but he did do damage.

>And, as we can see from this incident, Martin Gardner's
>Skeptical Inquirer column, attacking Temple University, sparked
>a news story in the Philiadelphia Inquirer, thus bringing
>Gardner's accusations before a wide audience.

>What's going on here, I think, is a dangerous form of
>McCarthyism. Martin Gardner wants to stamp out all research that
>he disagrees with, or at least to deprive it of its academic
>connection. Think of where this could go, if it became a serious
>campaign. Robert Jahn and his thoroughly scientific research
>into psychokinesis might be booted out of Princeton. Stuart
>Appelle, a psychologist who edits the Journal of UFO Studies,
>might have to choose between his UFO work and his university
>position. We've already seen John Mack threatened with censure
>at Harvard, because he believes abductions are real, and had the
>gall to say so very publicly.

>And, in a much smaller, unpublicized event, Jodi Dean, a
>political scientist at a small university, ran into trouble
>because of a book she published on the political meaning of
>abduction belief. After a brutal attack by Frederick Crews in
>the NY Review of Books (which has a small but very elite
>circulation), she was asked to defend herself before a faculty
>committee. She hadn't said abductions were real, but she hadn't
>said they weren't, either; plus she'd suggested that abductees
>be given a sympathetic hearing. That was enough to get her in
>trouble.

Greg is right on target when he compares this sort of thing to
McCarthyism. There is more than a small degree of hysteria in
academia's heretics-under-the-beds response to heterodox claims
and phenomena, and if you value intellectual freedom, it's
scary.

Martin Gardner is largely responsible for the slash-and-burn
style of debunking which infests discussion, intellectual and
popular, about anomalies and the paranormal. His book Fads and
Fallacies in the Name of Science (1952, 1957) anticipates the
particular sort of polemical approach debunkers over the next
four decades would employ in their effort to stamp out hated
heresies. What's sad is that they've been largely successful.
CSICOP, with its endless, shameless fund-raising and promotional
genius, is a cash cow, and it commands far more resources than
serious anomalists can ever hope to attain.

The good news, I guess, is that anomalies are not going to go
away and someday science will have to find a way of dealing with
them that's more productive -- and truthful -- than it's gotten
from the professional heresy-hunters to whom it has largely
passed its responsibilities. One day all of this will be judged
a shameful episode in the history of science.

Jerry Clark







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   Sep > Sep 3

                           Re: Black Helicopters?

From: michael Hodges <mwhod@roanoke.infi.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 12:30:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 13:46:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Helicopters?


>>Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:58:44 +0100
>>To: updates@globalserve. net
>>From: Keith Stevens <k. stevens@virgin. net>
>>Subject: Black Helicopters

>>Hello List

>>Would someone answer a few questions that I have regarding
>>'Black Helicopters'?

Hello list,

This is my first post to this list and I simply pose a question
in regard to the black helicopters, that are being seen in a lot
of areas.

Is it possible that these belong to the FEMA organization?

I think that there is much more to be known about the group than
most know.

As I understand it, there are about 42,000 in the group and
about 10,000 of them are used in national diasters, some seem to
think of the group as a secret police force. I have read a
number of UFO sightings where they were also in the area.

I basically am looking for information with the question.

Michael


[Perhaps that naice Mistah Stewart would respond? --ebk]





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                 Re: Black Hole Time Travel Theory Disputed

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 20:18:16 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 15:07:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Hole Time Travel Theory Disputed


I wrote:

>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 03:20:45 +0200
>Subject: Black Hole Time Travel Theory Disputed


>Source: BBC

>http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/sci/tech/newsid_163000/163334.stm


>Stig

>*******

>BBC News Online: Sci/Tech
>Wednesday, September 2, 1998
>Published at 20:06 GMT 21:06 UK


>Time Travel Theory 'Full Of Holes'


Discovery Channel Online supplies a more detailed report. Go to

http://www.discovery.com/news/briefs/brief1.html

Stig

*******

Time Travel Idea Nixed

The concept of using black holes as galactic transport tunnels
through time and space some day may sound like a good idea, but
recent computer simulations show you'd be ripped apart,
according to Israeli scientists.

Black holes are the super-dense remains of a collapsed star.
Their gravity is so enormous that Einstein theorized space and
time can be warped. Even light cannot escape their grasp.

Scientists have speculated that if you were to fly into a black
hole in a spaceship, you travel to far reaches of the Universe
in an instant. Others argued that a black hole's gravitational
pull is too strong for a spaceship to pass through. Worse,
anyone trying to fly through a black hole would ram into a
"singularity," a point where the bending of space-time becomes
infinite and all matter is obliterated.

But several years ago, physicists speculated that a spinning or
electrically charged black hole might have a stretched-out
singularity in the shape of a ring. In theory, a spaceship could
fly through the ring without getting shredded.

"It allows the observer to fall into a black hole and fly
through it, and emerge nobody knows where," Nickolay Gnedin, an
astrophysicist at the University of Colorado at Boulder tells
New Scientist.

By using computers to simulate both how a charged black hole
forms from the remains of a star and how the singularity would
behave, Tsvi Piran and his colleague Shahar Hod at Jerusalem's
Hebrew University have nixed this idea.

Simulations showed that the formation of a black hole creates a
new kind of singularity due to an effect called "mass
inflation." When a traveler moves towards the black hole, the
apparent mass of the hole increases to infinity. So in the end,
the traveler would indeed become space spaghetti.

"This singularity goes through the entire system," Piran tells
New Scientist. "It doesn't leave any hole through which matter
may pass."

"It's quite an amazing piece of work," says Eric Poisson, an
astrophysicist at the University of Guelph, Ontario. "There's no
way to go through if the singularity really is a brick wall."

DISCOVERY ONLINE

Picture: Roeland P. van der Marel/STScI)/Frank C. van den
Bosch/University of Washington/NASA |

Copyright =A9 1998 Discovery Communications Inc.





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                              E.T., E-Mail Home

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 20:11:05 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 15:03:02 -0400
Subject: E.T., E-Mail Home


Source: Intellectual Capital

http://www.intellectualcapital.com/issues/98/0903/icsmart.asp

Stig

*******

E.T., E-mail Home
by Elias Crim

September 3, 1998

Following this article, we have set up a special moderated
discussion section for those who wish to comment. After you read
the article, be sure to add your opinion.

Among the stranger e-mails I have received lately was one from
my pal Zeke. The strange part was the attached file -- a big
glob of raw data.

"So what is this gunky file you sent me?" I asked when I finally
reached Zeke at his hacker's home base.

"Hah, can't you tell? That's probably some kind of
extraterrestrial high-five looking back at you."

Oh no, I thought. "Did you say extraterrestrial?"

"Yeah. I signed up for the beta test team on the Search for
Extraterrestrial Intelligence, or SETI for short. There will
soon be thousands of us out here, all downloading pieces of sky
from giant radio telescopes and then crunching our little data
files to see if we can hear some galactic talk radio or
something."


The Search Continues

I had vaguely heard of the SETI project. "Something to do with
the late Carl Sagan and the University of California at
Berkeley?" I asked.

"Bingo!" Zeke answered.

I also remembered former Wisconsin Sen. William Proxmire
awarding this kind of expensive channel-surfing for aliens one
of his uncoveted "Golden Fleece" awards.

"That guy!" Zeke scoffed. "A lot he knew! What about that
Martian meteorite they found with the microbes in it? Leading
astronomer Frank Drake predicts we'll have contact by the turn
of the millennium."

"Contact." That's the hot term among these data trekkies.
Because NASA has not been permitted to take on this type of
project, the SETI Institute was formed in 1993, funded by
high-tech titans William Hewlett and David Packard
(Hewlett-Packard's founders), Gordon Moore (Intel's founder) and
Paul Allen (Microsoft's co-founder).

Zeke assured me that far more than 100,000 fellow E.T.
enthusiasts already have volunteered to crunch small pieces of
data on their personal computers -- the project is nicknamed
"SETI@home" -- with a free software program supplied by the SETI
Institute. The data are collected by Puerto Rico's Arecibo
telescope, the largest ear to space ever built.


Light Years Apart

If a volunteer discovers anything "interesting" in the newly
crunched file, he or she sends the file back to SETI's experts
for a second look. Given the number of people signing up, we are
talking about the largest distributed computing project yet
seen.

"After all, we've been leaking TV and radio shows into space for
decades," Zeke remarked. "Think of it as a chattering bubble of
radar, with the Howdy Doody Show, Top 40 and Edward R. Murrow
inside it, the whole thing about 100 light years across."

I paused to let this bizarre idea sink in. "So why don't we try
transmitting specific messages back as well as just listening?"
I asked.

"Very expensive. We sent a message toward star cluster M13 back
in 1974, with digital images representing the major elements in
the earth's chemistry, the shape and size of the human body, and
so on."

"Ever hear from them?"

"Ah, not right away. M13 is about 25,000 light years away,
actually."

Hmm. "But we need more than just life forms for 'contact,'
right?" I asked. "I mean, we need aliens who are good at going
online or whatever?"

Zeke agreed. "One Harvard guy, Ernst Mayr, estimated that we've
had maybe 50 billion different species on Earth since the origin
of life, but he points out that only one of these ever created a
civilization based on high intelligence."


An Extraterrestrial Education

Ah, a skeptic.

"Yeah," Zeke added. "Mayr says there are eight different
conditions to be met before SETI can expect success -- like, do
the aliens have sense organs that can receive our electronic
signals? Mayr says six of these conditions are improbable. So
multiply them with each other and the improbability of
extraterrestrial intelligence is, like, astronomical."

Zeke recommended that I also read the late Carl Sagan's response
to Mayr's critique of SETI-type projects.

Finally, in a related effort, fans of political correctness will
be pleased to know that NASA has sponsored a workshop on
"Cultural Aspects of the Search for Extraterrestrial
Intelligence," partly aimed at educating citizens to avoid
negative stereotyping of bug-eyed monsters -- er, I mean,
aliens.



*Elias Crim is the founding editor of Online Access Magazine and
is a publishing executive in Chicago. He is a regular
commentator for IntellectualCapital.com. His e-mail address is

eliascrim@intellectualcapital.com.


Related Links

The truth is at the *Seti Institute home page. *The Planetary
Society originally published the debate between *Ernst Mayr and
*Carl Sagan in 1995. *Arecibo figures prominently in an *X-Files
episode.

*******

Do you believe in extraterrestrial life forms? Why or why not? Should
the government invest money in trying to find extraterrestrials? What,
if anything, could be learned from aliens if they were found? Post your
opinions *here.

*[SUBMIT RESPONSE]

9/3/98 tekur@aol.com
I like the idea of using volunteers to donate time and computing power
to a problem like this. You can choose to participate or not. Very
democratic! Actually, better than democratic since the people who do
not want to participate are not forced to by the majority. I do not see
how this really applies to what government is supposed to be doing,
though. So, why should tax dollars be used for it?

9/3/98 Pastor of Muppets pastorofmuppets@rocketmail.com
Ernest Mayr sounds like an idiot.

IntellectualCapital.com is a service mark of
A2S2 Digital Projects, Inc.
email us at info@intellectualcapital.com











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                    Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:46:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 15:27:45 -0400
Subject: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles


>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 05:58:30 -0500
>Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:25:45 -0400
>Subject: Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?

>>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>>Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 22:04:46 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?

>>Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 13:38:28 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?

>>How would you surmise that they would be any more likely to
>>project the images on the wheat than a sophisticated, solid
>>state, high tech, computerized, graphic oriented, microwave
>>generating, beam capable communications satellite could?

>>I don't surmise it at all. American satellites were incapable of
>>bringing to the world's attention India's nuclear capabilities
>>until after the weapons were detonated. Yet, somehow there are
>>satellites over Europe that have the optical or energy-focusing
>>resolution necessary to produce the intricate, frequently woven
>>patterns hundreds of miles below? Even if such a system existed,
>>it clearly works perfectly...so why keep testing it (in the same
>>place), and risk discovery of the pattern's source?

>You are assuming that the American Government is being totally
>truthful with us. I on the other hand doubt that they are. It
>has been said as far back as the 60's that American Spy
>Satellites had the capability of reading a newspaper over the
>shoulder of a person standing on a street corner.

Time for Mr. Christol to get a physics reality check. Anybody
who said an American spy satellite could read a newspaper
obviously didn't know what they were talking about. Even under
_optimum conditions_ (e.g., no atmospheric distortion), the
maximum angular resolution "A" of a circular aperature imaging
system of diameter "d" imaging a wavelength L is given by A =
1.22*L/d. Furthermore, "A" is also the size of the element you
are trying to resolve, call it "x" divided by the height "h"
that the satellite is above the ground, or A = x/h = 1.2*L/d.
From this, we can calculate that the minimal resolvable size on
the ground is x = 1.22*Lh/d.

Now let's select some _optimal_ numbers for the variables to
give you the best possible resolution (again neglecting such
things as atmospheric turbulence which wreaks havoc with
telescope images, seriously degrading them). Suppose your spy
satellite is only 100 miles (160 km) up, about the lowest
practical distance you can place it without it quickly being
dragged out of orbit by residual atmospheric friction. Suppose
further that "d" is equivalent to the largest current
space-based telescope, namely the Hubble telescope, with an
aperature of 60 inches or about 1 m in diameter. Now choose a
relatively short wavelength of light to again increase
resolution. Let L = 5 * 10^-7 m, the wavelength of blue-green
light.

So even after using all these optimal numbers, we still get x =
10 cm or 4 inches. That represents the width of the elements you
are trying to resolve. Suppose you were trying to make out a
large newspaper headline with the letter "C." Each resolvable
element must be separated by at least 10 cms. So that letter "C"
will have to be at the very least 30 cm or 1 foot tall --
absolute minimum. That's one tall newspaper headline! Such an
optimal system couldn't even resolve ordinary newspaper
headlines much less the actual newsprint on a page.

>Another thing, you seem to assume that they are testing the
>satellite...I on the other hand do not make such an assumption.
>I suggest they are deliberately adding to the UFO lore

The only one here "deliberately adding to the UFO lore" seems to
be Mr. Christol, with his elaborate and almost impossible
theories of fantastic military secret projects somehow
accounting for nearly all UFO reports, and even crop circles.

>by doing this, when in fact it may have nothing to do wiht UFOs. As far
>as risking discovery of the pattern's source, how is that going
>to happen? You don't see a "beam" projecting into the fileds
>from above. You don't see anything.

Here's one way it could happen. An airplane flies into the path
of the potent microwave beam, has it's navigation disrupted, and
crashes. Or how about a slight guidance error, which results in
the microwave beam hitting a populated area instead of some
field. That would get people's attention.

If the military wanted to play with space-based to ground energy
beams, they would test them out in some highly deserted area,
not direct them near populated regions. The danger of
catastrophe is simply too great. And nobody has ever accused the
military of having a delicate, artistic side. Their goal with
powerful weapons is to make things go BOOM, not draw
etch-a-sketch patterns in wheat fields from space using
extraordinarily expensive systems.

>Again, this a purely subjective area of ufology.

No, it's not a purely subjective area of ufology, because Mr. Christol's very
fanciful theories of military secret weapons from space creating crop circles
can be shown to be complete bunk using simple, very basic physical arguments.
"Subjective" would mean that there was insufficient information to resolve the
issue. That's not the case here.

>>>Just how would the UFO project or lay out the pattern? Would
>>>they not have the same capabilities as those mentioned in the
>>>preceeding paragraph?
>
>>Are you suggesting that we may have the same technology as ETs
>>hundreds or thousands of years in advance of our own? I think
>>not. I think there would be far greater and noble uses for such
>>technology if we had it.

>No...I am suggesting that ET's have nothing to to with this at
>all. I am suggesting that it is purely a local phenomena, one
>origionating, not in the depths of space, but from right here on earth.

No, some space based military microwave beam won't work at all,
which becomes much clearer below. Such a project would have to
be absolutely massive in scope, a FACT that Mr. Christol doesn't
seem to grasp.

>I am going to be honest with you Greg. I am not sure there are
>ET's visiting this planet. I am convinced that at least 90 per
>cent of ALL UFO sightings are a result of advanced technology
>produced by someone on this planet, and that it has always been such.

Mr. Christol seems to be pulling more fanciful rabbits out of a
hat. Study after study has shown that 90% (give or take) of ALL
sightings are misidentification of common objects and natural
phenomena. Where did Mr. Christol come up with the figure that
90% are the result of advanced military technology? Who knows?
Perhaps Mr. Christol can cite even ONE study that has shown
this.

>I know this is not a popular point of view, but I have not seen
>any evidence to dispute this.

It's not a popular point of view, because numerous studies have
proven it false. If Mr. Christol hasn't seen any evidence to
dispute this, he simply hasn't been looking. He could start with
something like Blue Book Special Report #14, which does a
statistical analysis of over 2000 UFO reports.

>I know it is popular to blame everything on ET's.

Mr. Christol's strawman argument. Nobody who is in the least
knowledgable about the field "blames everything on ET's."

> But I also
> know that the Military powers in this country have been working
> with the CIA and other groups developing Mind Altering Drugs and
> other techniques including sonic devices which effect the brains
> ability to tell the difference from what we call reality and fantasy.

If Mr. Christol "knows" this, it must be based on personal
experience, given his inability to tell the difference from what
we call reality and fantasy in the rest of his arguments,

>I also know this taps on the average UFO believers sacared beliefs.

Again, I guess he "knows this" in the same way he knows that spy
satellites can read newspapers, military satellites create crop
circles, and 90% of all UFO sightings are really military secret
projects.

<snip>

>>So how does one stop the microwaves from just blasting into the
>>ground? How would they withhold their "bending power" until just
>>above the ground? Why were no bad experiments found, wherein
>>obvious failures in the system occured during initial testing
>>stages? To my knowledge even the simplest legitimate circles
>>were still perfect in dimention. Would microwaves be attenuated
>>by cloud cover? Could the imaging system look through the clouds
>>with sufficient accuracy to create the desired result? Crop
>>circles can and do occur under overcast conditions.

>Sure microwaves could produce the patterns through cloud cover.
>They are using infrared devices to view the earth's surface
>during cloudy weather and at night. These things you are
>suggesting are not a problem.

Well let's get down to the crunch here. What sort of space-based
microwave imaging system would it take to create something
remotely like a crop circle? It's really the same basic physics
optics problem as in the spy satellite resolution question, but
in reverse. The spy satellite receives EM radiation in the
visual range. But the hypothetical microwave crop circle
generator must transmit in the microwave range. The BIG
difference here is that microwaves are orders of magnitude
greater in wavelength than visible light and thus require orders
of magnitude in size greater imaging systems. This is due to the
inherent wave nature of light, which causes the waves to spread
out from any aperature and also to interfere with themselves
creating a diffraction pattern. This places fundamental
limitations on how tightly you can focus any form of EM wave
with a given size aperature.

Let's illustrate this with an example. Keep your "crop circle
generator" only 100 miles up. Assume that it must be able to
focus a spot on the ground only 1 m across to create something
of the intricacy of geometric patterns seen in crop circles. To
aid in getting this resolution, let's use a relatively short
wavelenth of microwaves, namely 30 gigahertz microwaves, which
would have a wavelength of only 1 cm. Now the question becomes,
how big a microwave "dish" does it take to create such a spot
(again assuming optimal atmospheric conditions causing no
scatter)? Rearrange the first equation, and we get the equation:

d = 1.22*Lh/x

Plug in the values and you find that d = ~2000 meters!!!! That's
a mile and a quarter across! How did our brilliant military
manage to do that? How do they keep such a huge object invisible
from the ground? Can you imagine the enormous resources it would
take to place such an attenna in orbit? And to do what? To
create crop circles, according to Mr. Christol, just to confuse
us.

In another post, Mr. Christol even went so far as to claim that
his microwave crop circle generator was in geosynchronous orbit.
Well, that greatly eases the tracking problem from low orbit,
which is ENORMOUS. (Imagine trying to guide a rapidly moving
giant antenna in space such that it remains focused on a spot
100 or more miles away.) But look at what happens to the size of
your antenna.

The height "h" of the satellite increase from 100 miles (160 km)
to 22,600 miles (36,300 km), an increase of over 200 times. The
size of the antenna dish "d"needed to image the same size 1
meter spot on the ground must similarly increase over 200 times.
Our hypothetical crop circle generator becomes 275 miles across!
Now our clever black budget military is assembling objects the
size of artificial moons, and still keeping it all invisible to
the gullible ET believers.

The only conceivable way to avoid using some impossibly huge
dish antenna is to employ something along the lines of a phase
array antenna, such as the ground-based HAARP project in Alaska,
which is using a large array of radio- frequency attenae to get
a focused beam of radio frequency energy. Thus instead of one
solid structure for an antenna, you could put up a large fleet
of individual satellites, and through another stupendous feat of
space engineering, maintain them indefinitely at a constant
distance from one another and emitting microwaves bearing a
carefully controlled phase relationship to one another. If you
can overcome these very formidable problems, you also get the
advantage that you no longer need to physically steer the
antenna in orbit in order to point the beam at the same point,
but can electronically steer the beam by altering the relative
phase between
emitters.

But all this takes a big fleet of satellites if you want a
narrow beam. If you try to do it with just a few satellites, the
vast bulk of your energy gets lost in the side beams produced by
the interference pattern. Besides requiring much more energy to
create a powerful enough central beam, this creates the very
serious problem of a lot of targets being struck by the mulitude
of side beams. It's like an assassin trying to shoot someone in
a crowd by using a sawed-off shotgun loaded with buckshot at 100
yards instead of using a rifle with a telescopic site. A lot of
innocent people are going to get hit in the process and most of
the ammunition is simply wasted.

>Where they get the energy to
>produce these things is easy...most of them are solar powered
>these days. Which gives them an endless access to the power
>necessary to operate all of the satellites operating systems.

See Bruce Maccabee's post on this. If you try to use a smaller
antenna, you get a very large beam spread instead of a tightly
focused beam because of diffraction effects absolutely INHERENT
in the physical situation. The smaller the aperature, the
greater the diffraction effects, or spread due to the waves.
That's why for better resolution, you always opt for bigger
lenses, mirrors, or antenna dishes.

So if you use small antenna and your beam is spread out all over
the place, you require some ENORMOUS power plant just to get a
sufficient energy density to cause the crop circles once the
microwaves strike the ground. (This also ignores the fact that
you can no longer carve out some highly localized, intricate
pattern with such a spread-out beam). So if Mr. Christol thinks
that it is "easy" to produce such energies with solar panels,
maybe he should look at Bruce Maccabee's calculation that you
would need something the size of 100-1000 nuclear power plants,
that is hundreds of millions of kilowatts of power (and that's
just from low earth orbit -- raise the power figures by four or
more orders of magnitude for a geosynchronous orbit). Then
figure out how big a solar array would be needed to produce that
much power. You end up with numbers in the region of 100s to
1000s of square miles (or millions of square miles from a
geosynchronous orbit). How "easy" is that?

In summary, with a small antenna, you would need huge solar
arrays to achieve the necessary energy densities on the ground.
Inversely, if go to tightly focused beams to decrease the energy
demands, then you need an enormous antenna or antenna arrays.
Either way you're into massive space engineering projects that
might cost hundreds of billions to trillions of dollars. Where
do you get the money to build such systems, how do you launch
and assemble them in space, all the time doing this completely
unseen even after you have assembled these orbiting monsters?

>>Sorry, I just don't think it's satellites.

>Hey, Greg...that is fine...I have no problem with your opinions.
>I am simply exchange ideas with you, not attacking you. As I
>have said, to this point it is purely subjective...

I suggest Mr. Christol take a course in basic physics. Perhaps
then he can learn to tell the real difference between what he
terms "opinions" and the "purely subjective," and physical
FACTS. Just a little back-of-the-envelope type calculations
can go a long way. It proves that his space-based, military,
super-secret microwave crop-circle generator is unbelievable
nonsense, more fantastic than believing UFOs _might_ be
responsible for _some_ crop circles, and even far more fantastic
than believing they are all hoaxed by Doug and Dave.

David (not Doug and Dave) Rudiak






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   Sep > Sep 4

                  Re: Alien Rupture - the truth breaks out.

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 16:31:34 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 09:19:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Rupture - the truth breaks out.


From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 06:57:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:19:27 -0400
Subject: Alien Rupture - the truth breaks out. Challenge!

>I have been reading this Edgar Fouche stuff. Alien Crapture more like!

>It is utter nonsense as I show below with just a few quick
>examples. The first thing to say is that most of the correct
>technical details - there are always a few in disinformation or
>science fiction - could have been gleaned from any half-decent
>textbook on military affairs or through the most casual perusal
>of a book or article by Bill Sweetman.

Although there is good reason to be skeptical of Fouche's book,
which indeed could have been written after gleaning information
available through other books, I nevertheless must take issue
with the following totally unfounded criticisms by Tim Matthews.

>Slide 69; "TR3B Operational Version".

>Reducing the mass of a nuclear generator by 89%? I don't think so.

Fouche certainly isn't the first to propose that UFOs might
reduce their mass in order to achieve high maneuverability, high
linear acceleration, and hoverability. E.g., James MacCampbell
proposed this in his book "Ufology" some 25 years ago (but
proposed no mechanism to account how they might do so). And
recent theoretical work by Puthoff and Haisch as to the
fundamental origins of inertial mass leave the possibility open
that it can be manipulated.

>"With the vehicle mass reduced by 89% the craft can travel at
>mach 9 vertically or horizontally. My sources say the
>performance is limited only by the stresses that the human
>pilots can endure. Which is a lot, really, considering along
>with the 89% reduction in mass, the G forces are also reduced by
>89%."

>Utter nonsense. Mass and g forces have no relationship to each other.

Utter nonsense? That is one of the most fundamental equations in
all physics: Force = Inertial Mass * Acceleration. You know,
Newton's second law of motion, taught in the first week of high
school physics.

So if you reduce the inertial mass by 89%, the force experienced
by that mass undergoing an acceleration is likewise reduced by
89%. QED. That's all Fouche is claiming, and in this one
instance, the man is absolutely correct.

>Regardless of so-called 'mass' the pilot would suffer the g turns.

True utter nonsense. Any "suffering" would be reduced by 89% if
you reduce the mass by 89%. A 100 G turn at 100% ordinary mass
would be equivalent to an 11G turn at 11% reduced mass.

>As to travelling vertically 'at mach 9' with a pilot. Forget about it!

Why? Space shuttles do it all the time at even higher Mach
numbers.

>At mach 9 and travelling in a straight line g forces would be no
>problem as such. Only when performing turns or evasive maneuvers
>- fairly impossible at Mach 9 but no matter - would g forces
>operate.

True, only when actually accelerating does the craft and crew
experience G- forces. The acceleration can be linear (speeding
up, slowing down) or when making turns (centripetal
acceleration).

But the real point is still this: the G-forces on craft and crew
during any acceleration are reduced by 89% if the inertial mass
is reduced by 89%. Some maneuverability at Mach 9 then becomes
possible.

>"The crew of the TR3B should be able to comfortably take up to 40Gs".

>Are we really expected to take this seriously?

Absolutely. If you reduce the inertial mass by 89%, then the
crew only experiences .11*40 = 4.4 G's. That's pretty standard G
forces for military pilots (or astronauts to give another
example), who may pull 2 or even 3 times for brief periods in
extreme maneuvers. They could tolerate 4.4 G's standing on their
heads.

>Read any basic aviation text; +/- 9g maybe, even 10g. get to
>between 12-18 g and you're talking UAVs.......

Again, it is quite obvious that Tim Matthews doesn't grasp really BASIC
Newtonian physics. If you reduce the mass, you reduce the G-forces. Ergo 40
G's becomes 4.4 G's if you could somehow reduce the mass 89%.

>The reason that classified projects have concentrated upon
>active camouflage is precisely because a plane at high speeds
>might not be able to out-maneuver the new range of
>near/hypersonic AA missiles - obviously g turns rule out evasive
>action at such high speeds.....

>If you see what I mean.

We see what you mean, but you are simply wrong in this instance.

<snip>

>Well folks this is just a brief comment upon second reading of
>the talk supposedly given by Fouche at the Laughlin UFO
>Conference just recently. I could call Fouche a liar but I think
>he's just on the bandwagon.....the real classified Projects
>people must really love him......

>I challenge him and any of his supporters to debate these issues
>either live in front of an audience or on a talk radio show.

>Know what? They'll lose.

Not in this instance. Mr. Matthews loses big time. There are
other bones I could pick with Mr. Matthews various statements in
this and other posts, but his utter lack of comprehension about
the relationship between mass and G forces just stuck out like a
sore thumb. What is it with these Brit UFO skeptics anyway?
They're taught how to debate and write, but don't any of them
take science and math courses?

>Tim Matthews - standing up for common sense and factual analysis!

Yeah, yeah. Tell us all about it. Like only the UFO skeptics are
for common sense and factual analysis. Funny how their "facts"
are so often complete rubbish as they arrogantly criticize the
pro-UFO faction.

>FIND OUT ABOUT THE BOOK THEY FAILED TO BAN! "UFO REVELATION -
>THE SECRET TECHNOLOGY EXPOSED!" BY TIM MATTHEWS OUT VERY
>EARLY 1999. IT'S GONNA KICK ASS!

Oh great! A British version of Kal Korff, complete with the
capitalized shouting and the self-promotional bragging how his
new book is going to rip the lid off of this or that.

Like I said at the beginning, there is much to be skeptical
about Fouche, but the man shouldn't be attacked on highly
erroneous grounds. If I were to judge the Fouche claims of
inertial mass reduction, it would be on the basis of whether the
proposed mechanism made any sense. Fouche doesn't really spell
out the basic physical principle underlying this proposed mass
reducer. That would perhaps make it falsifiable and subject to
scientific analysis. Instead it's simply a claim that can't be
evaluated one way or another, and, therefore, could simply be
made up.

David Rudiak






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   Sep > Sep 4

                           Re: Black Helicopters?

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 16:24:14 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 09:15:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Helicopters?


>Subj:   UFO UpDate: Re: Black Helicopters?
>Date:  98-09-03 15:34:34 EDT
>From:  updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
>To:    updates@globalserve.net

>Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 09:57:04 -0500
>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Black Helicopters?

>>As possibly the only helicopter pilot on this list, and probably
>>the only one with a great deal of formation flying time, I will
>>note that Don is correct about "flicker vertigo" which can also
>>be cause by sunlight through the rotorblades and the rotating
>>beacon on the back of helicopters.

>Nope -- at least one other (who has more time sitting in POL
>waiting for hot gas than either one of us has total -- and I
>have around 45 hundred hours) -- than myself, concurs. In fact
>it is standard operating procedure in most military units to
>extinguish strobes and rotating beacons in a formation flight,
>except for the trail aircraft. Also -- these light will be
>extinguished in poor weather conditions, manipulated for signal
>purposes, and must not flash, or turn and flash between two
>prescribed internationally agreed numbers.

I stand corrected.

And trail would turn off the rotating target if the LZ was hot.

KRandle






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   Sep > Sep 4

             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: RobIrving <RobIrving@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:43:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 17:02:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?
>Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 00:10:21 PDT

Leanne,

>But, the answer is out there and observable 'circle' creations
>have occurred in guarded fields so that tends to rule human
>physical contact in the non-hoaxes. So, what of Occam's Razor
>here?

I noticed you citing this previously, and now you are citing it
in the plural - as if crop patterns have appeared in 'guarded'
fields on more than one occasion - I'm wondering what your
source is?  And when you say 'observable' do you mean that these
patterns were actually witnessed being made?

Rob






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   Sep > Sep 4

                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 17:10:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 16:55:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:42:25 -0700 (PDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

<snip>

>Bruce or others,
>
>This kind of discussion makes me think it would be useful to
>have a basic estimate of the degree of hand-held camera jitter
>to be expected, in terms of amplitude and frequency. Has anyone
>made power spectra of this: amplitude of jitter versus
>frequency, over a frequency range from, say, 0.3 cps to 30 cps?
>Maybe it's been done before within photography (Bob?), or within
>health sciences, such as analyzing the degree of smearing on a
>time exposure of a stationary distant point-source of light at
>night, but using high-speed movie film in order to extract the
>power spectra, and analyzing the amplitude variations in the
>vertical and horizontal directions separately; then averaging
>such tests over different persons, but presumably excluding
>oldsters with the shakes. The graduate student in mind would be
>urged to do these tests and analyses with cameras of different
>weight, but starting with the typical cam-corder weight, and
>with/without holding the camera against one's head. (Big thesis
>project!)

>This would measure the combined effect of translational jitters
>and angular-variation jitters, but the angular variations should
>greatly dominate, so that "amplitude" of jitter could be
>measured in terms of fractions of a degree, vertical and
>horizontal, versus frequency.

While this estimate would be helpful, I suspect you'll find that
the variation from person to person would be fairly high.  When
Bruce presented his findings (albeit hurriedly) at a recent
event in Maryland he mentioned that the the shutter speed was
twice the normal speed found on most video cameras, which would
help to minimize the smearing (which was a factor probably taken
into account when it was created).  This was mentioned in
passing by Bruce in an earlier message, but I think that it's
significant. Most photographers would adjust the aperture to
take the bright sky into account, increasing their depth of
field, but this photographer chose to change the shutter speed.

Because of the shutter speed change, the smearing was apparently
difficult to detect.  But Jeff and Bruce were able to compare
the images frame by frame and found a number that showed the
effect of smearing due to the hand held camera motion.  In one
comparison, a windsock (or small flag) on the roof of one of the
buildings actually disappears in one frame, but the "craft" in
the image shows no smearing in that same frame.  As pointed out,
unless the "craft" was able to move up and down in conjunction
with the camera then it was likely added to the video at a later
time, indicating that this was a hoax.  One other video that
Bruce showed was of the same scene generated by computer as part
of a test, and it looked very convincing.  These are, of course,
only indicators.  Unless someone comes forward to acknowledge
this as a "hoax", it will likely remain a subject for debate.

Steve







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   Sep > Sep 4

                    Re: TNT UFO Special on September 13th

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 17:22:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 16:57:56 -0400
Subject: Re: TNT UFO Special on September 13th

"Filer's Files" included reference to the upcoming UFO Special
on Turner Network Television, which premieres on September 13th.
A few details can be found at the TNT web site (ignore the cute
intro):

http://tnt.turner.com/kgb/

==TNT Text==
For the first time ever, viewers learn what many consider to be
the terrifying truth about the Soviet Union's encounters with
extraterrestrial intelligence and UFOs in Russia, Romania, China
and the Eastern Bloc. Roger Moore hosts this extraordinary
special featuring never-before-seen footage of what is believed
to be actual crash sites and alien autopsies, first-hand
accounts with former agents of the KGB of UFO incidents,
powerful re-creations of alien encounters and first-time
interviews with the experts who have seen the documentation and
know the truth. THE SECRET KGB UFO FILES paints a disturbing
picture of the KGB's hidden campaign and discloses startling
revelations that will forever change the way the world thinks
about this phenomenon. Rating: TV-PG ==end text==

This page is actually well done, and provides a few images to
tease those who are interested, including a (cute) Quicktime
video clip.  This looks like a good show with Richard Haines and
Stanton Friedman (among others).







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   Sep > Sep 4

                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

From: Robert Irving <RobIrving@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:43:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 17:01:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage


>Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 21:19:30 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

Hi Dennis

>That, or Mexico City suffered a small earthquake just as the UFO
>was flying by. Yeah, that must be it! That would explain why the
>buildings move and the UFO doesn't.

Of course, if the camera operator had a firm enough grip, being
that the 'saucer' was the only object unaffected by the quake it
might be the only thing appearing to move in the image.

(That'll be two cents.)

Rob








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                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 17:56:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 20:34:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage


> Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:21:38 -0400
> From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
> Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage
> Sender: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

> >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
> >To: updates@globalserve.net
> >Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage
> >Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:34:47 PDT

Hi all,

I disagree with all who try to make any valid conclusions on the
Mexico City UFO Footage of August 06 1997.

I support my disagreement based on the following:

If you don=B4t have the ORIGINAL Mexico=B4s UFO video you can=B4t make
any evidence proclamation since a copy of the video could have
been manipulated by another source as Bruce Maccabee states in
his literal Initial Comments On Mexico City UFO Video Aug-6-1997
based on analysis of a video copy (originating source unknown)

See: http://www.genesis-3.com/mexico97/tekrpt02.htm

The original Video and Camera brand confirmation including the
Video Tape Quality should be considered as the Primary source to
analyze. Any other intent to have a valid result is in vain.

Another notation, if you film and follow a body in movement with
any COMMON filming device the adjacent static objects should
appear as blured or deformated,(tape and camera speed must be
considered).

The film should be processed under rigorously controlled
conditions (if it has not already been processed commercially).
If the camera is available but empty, the same operations should
be conducted wit a film of the same type as the original.

The investigator should visit the original site and make
measurements concerning the three-dimensional geometry of the
observed landscape or this information should be extracted from
detailed maps. If the photograph has been acquired at night
time, an astronomical map of the sky at the time of acquisition
will be necessary.

The investigator should determine the meteorological conditions
from the official offices or air bases in the neighborhood with
particular attention to the horizontal visibility, visibility
reductio phenomena as blowing dust, heavy smog, (very common in
Mexico City). Atmospheric reactions between hydrocarbons and
nitrogen oxides, under sunlight influence.

IMECA Measurements of August 06 1997 were 237 from 255
(Emergency Level) between 12:00 and 20.00pm

Prevailing Visibility was reduced to less than 2SM (status mile)
due to Haze and Smoke on the afternoon of August 06 1997. One
mile =3D 1609 meters x 2 =3D 3128 meters or 3.128 km.

Prevailing visibility: The greatest distance that can be seen
throughout at least half the horizon circle, not necessarily
continuous; the visibility that is continuous; the visibility
that is considered representative of visibility at any place.

IMECA=3D "Metropolitan (Mexico City) Atmospheric Contamination
Ambient Index" in Spanish "Indice MEtropolitano de Contaminacion
Ambiental"

This IMECA units don't mean they are determinant of the
horizontal visibility, IMECA is a unit conformed by several
components which determine a life treat. Principal IMECA
components: Ozone O3, Nitrogen Dioxide NO2, Sulfur Dioxide SO2,
Carbon Monoxide CO, carbon Bioxide CO2 and Suspended Particles.

Data obtained from:(SEMARNAP) at:

http://www.calidad-del-aire.gob.mx/sima/ddf/_re_imke.html


Video And Photographic Analysis

The investigator should also take into account all quantified or
quantifiable elements of the witness testimony including the
estimated shape, angular size, velocity, color, etc.

For analysis of the photograph or video, it is essential to work
from the original tape or negative. This should be carefully
washed and examined under a microscope to look for possible
tell-tale artifacts and scratches, and to check the regularity
of the grain structure so as to detect multiple exposures. The
negative should be analyzed by conventional photographic
instruments (enlarger, projector, etc.), and the information on
the negative should be digitized by a micro-densitometer.

Once digitized, the image may be analyzed by computer analysis,
using the classical tools of contrast enhancement, noise
suppression, contour detection, restoration, etc., and more
specialized techniques such as maximum-entropy analysis that may
be used to remove the effects of target motion and/or camera
motion. Such analysis will assist in the detection of a possible
hoax.

For instance, a suspension thread may be brought into evidence
through standard differential operations. Also, one may estimate
the distance (hence the size) of the object through MTF
computations, based on an analysis of atmospheric diffusion and
contour blurring.

If there are black areas on the object, it is possible to obtain
estimates of the distance by comparing the luminance of such
regions with other identified black parts of the scenery. If the
object is nearer than the minimum depth of field, one should be
able to detect geometrical distortions in the image. If the
operator had a slight movement while taking the picture,
analysis of the corresponding blur on the object and on other
elements of the landscape may allow the calculation of a
possible range for the distance of the object.

In the case of a color photograph, one should carry out the
above procedures in three steps using three appropriate color
filters for scanning.

Most lenses including the human lens are not perfect optical
systems. As a result when visual stimuli are passed through them
they undergo a certain degree of degradation. The question is
how can this degradation be evaluated? Before we can answer this
question we need to define "modulation."

Recall in a square wave grating there were dark bars and light
bars. We can measure the amount of light coming from each. The
maximum amount of light will come from the light and the minimum
from the dark bars. If the light is measured in terms of
luminance (L) we can define modulation according to the
following equation:

           modulation =3D (Lmax - Lmin ) / (Lmax + Lmin)

where Lmax is the maximum luminance of the grating and Lmin is
the minimum.When modulation is defined in terms of light it is
frequently referred to as Michelson contrast. Indeed when one
takes the ratio of the illumination from the light and dark bars
one is measuring contrast.

Now, let's assume that you have a square wave grating of a
specific frequency (v) and modulation (contrast) and this
stimulus is passed through a lens. The modulation of the image
can now be measured.

The modulation transfer function (MTF) is defined as the
modulation, Mi, of the image divided by the modulation of the
stimulus ( the object), Mo, as shown in the following equation.

                       MTF(v) =3D Mi / M0

A lens system may behave differently depending on the nature of
the optical information that passes through it. For example,
lens systems vary as a function of the spatial frequency of the
stimuli that they handle. You undoubtedly noticed, above, that
MTF has spatial frequency (v) as a parameter.


Best regards to all investigators and list members,


Alex Franz
alcione.org






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   Sep > Sep 4

                Spacecraft Finds New Evidence Of Lunar Water

From: Stig Agermose Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 02:07:23 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 23:17:06 -0400
Subject: Spacecraft Finds New Evidence Of Lunar Water


Source: The Nando Times

http://www2.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/health/090398/healtht_20635_noframes.
html

Stig

*******

Spacecraft finds new evidence of moon water

Copyright =A91998 Nando.net
Copyright =A91998 The Associated Press

WASHINGTON (September 3, 1998 5:02 p.m. EDT -- As much as 10
billion tons of water may be frozen near the moon's poles,
according to data from a lunar spacecraft -- water enough to
build a moon village or to fuel rocket ships cruising even
deeper into space.

"There is an abundance of hydrogen at both lunar poles and we
interpret that to mean there is water there," said Alan Binder,
chief scientist for the Lunar Prospector spacecraft now orbiting
the moon. "There is at least one billion tons of water, but
there could be as much as 10 billion tons."

That would be 10 times the amount previously estimated, enough
to build a colony on the moon's surface and to operate a rocket
service station for journeys beyond, he said.

"We knew from the Apollo missions that we could go to the moon
and build a base there, but we would have to take our water and
fuel with us," Binder said. The deposits of water or hydrogen,
he said, are "an enabling resource. You could build a colony
without it, but this really makes it a lot simpler."

In addition to sustaining life in such a colony, water also can
be used for rocket fuel by breaking it into its constituent
chemicals -- hydrogen and oxygen. Propellant for the space
shuttle's main engines, for instance, is hydrogen and oxygen.

Paul Spudis, a researcher at the Lunar and Planetary Institute
in Houston, called the discovery significant: "We've debated for
30 years whether or not there is ice on the moon and now this
shows there is."

Spudis was on the science team of an earlier lunar mission --
the Clementine spacecraft -- that found radar indications of
water on the lunar south pole. Now, he said, the presence of
lunar water has been confirmed by two different research
methods.

"This makes colonizing the moon a lot more attractive," said Ed
Weiler, a space scientist at NASA. "I think before we colonize
to Mars we need to colonize the moon for practice, so from that
perspective, this is a major discovery."

Binder, head of the Lunar Research Institute in Gilroy, Calif.,
and researchers from the Los Alamos National Laboratory report
their findings from the Lunar Prospector spacecraft on Friday in
the journal Science.

Lunar Prospector, launched in January, has spent months orbiting
the moon, gathering signals with four instruments.

The craft found water or hydrogen deposits with a device that
measures the energy, or speed, of neutrons that form when
radiation from the sun strikes the moon's surface. They bounce
around in the soil and then out into space. The soil's chemistry
affects the neutrons' energy or speed.

By measuring the ratio of intermediate-speed neutrons to the
fast and slow neutrons, the researchers were able to determine
the presence of hydrogen in the lunar soil, Binder said.

Ice appears to be at both poles, but about 50 percent more
appears to be around the north pole, the researchers said.

Binder said the most logical form for that hydrogen to take is
as a constituent of water. And since the moon is so cold, the
water is certain to be frozen solid.

All of the deposits are in patches within craters that never see
sunlight. Temperatures there are constantly about a minus 250
degrees F, said Binder. This keeps the ice in place "virtually
forever," he said. The data suggests the ice is in layers,
covered with up to 18 inches of soil.

Even more ice could be in layers below two feet of soil, said
Binder.

Harvesting the ice would involve digging it up and thawing it
using solar reflectors. A chemical process then could separate
hydrogen and oxygen.

"The only trick would be to build equipment that could work in
those extremely cold temperatures," said Binder.

The water probably came from comets smashing into the moon over
millions of years, Binder and Spudis said.

An impacting comet would spray water vapor around the moon, some
of which could get trapped in deep shaded areas -- cold traps,
Spudis said.

"Once it's trapped there, it could be stuck for two or three
billion years," he said.


By PAUL RECER, AP Science Writer

Copyright =A91998 Nando.net






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   Sep > Sep 4

              Lunar Prospector Provides Wealth Of Data On Moon

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 01:46:39 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 23:12:06 -0400
Subject: Lunar Prospector Provides Wealth Of Data On Moon


Source: Reuters News Service

Stig

*******

Lunar Prospector Provides Wealth Of Data On Moon

02:20 p.m Sep 03, 1998 Eastern

By Mark Weinraub

WASHINGTON, Sept 3 (Reuters) - It may not have taken the giant
step for mankind that Apollo astronauts did when they landed on
the moon, but NASA's Lunar Prospector has gathered a wealth of
data since it began circling the moon in January.

Highlights from the information Prospector collected during its
first few months in orbit, including new evidence showing the
presence of water on the moon, were published on Thursday in the
journal Science.

Prospector reported back the presence of hydrogen, which is
often bundled into water molecules, on both the north and south
poles of the moon, according to William Feldman, a laboratory
fellow at Los Alamos National Laboratory, who led the study on
Prospector's search for water on the moon.

Prospector found a total of approximately 3 billion metric tons
of water ice on each pole of the moon, Feldman said.

The water ice, which was probably brought to the moon on the
tails of comets or asteroids, is buried between 1.5 feet (50
centimetres) and six feet (two meters) under the surface of the
moon.

This finding differs from data received from the spacecraft
Clementine, which indicated the possible presence of water on
the moon. Clementine's findings, published in Science in
November 1996, showed less water.

The presence of water on the moon is important if the moon is
ever going to be colonised or used as a stopping-off point in
exploring planets, Feldman said.

"It would be less expensive by far if we could live off the
resources that are found on the moon," he said in a telephone
interview.

Feldman will get a chance to further check these findings when
Prospector dips from its current altitude of 63 miles (100 km)
to an orbit of just six miles (10 km) above the moon in January.

The Lunar Prospector spacecraft is a cylinder, about five feet
(1.5 meters) in diameter and four feet (1.2 meters) tall and
weighs about 650 pounds (295 kg). Its engines need to be fired
only once every 56 days to correct its orbit.

Prospector has no onboard computer, only an electronics box that
executes commands it receives from a team on Earth.

"It's a very stupid spacecraft which is great because nothing
ever goes wrong," said Alan Binder, director of the Lunar
Research Institute and designer of the Lunar Prospector Mission.

The spacecraft's simplicity also has benefits for the research,
since it produces little background noise to interfere with the
scientific experiments, Binder said.

Prospector is mapping the entire moon, determining the
concentrations of elements that make up the moon. The Apollo
missions only mapped about 25 percent of the moon, in the areas
around the moon's equator.

Prospector houses five separate scientific instruments which, in
addition to the mapping and the search for water, have been
relaying information about the moon's gravity and its magnetic
field, which may have been caused by the impact of comets,
Binder said.

Prospector is travelling at a speed of 3,669 miles per hour
(5,868 kph). It circles the moon about once every two hours.

"The real highlight of Lunar Prospector is the quality of the
data we're getting for the low cost," Binder said in a telephone
interview.

The mission, which cost $63 million, is part of NASA's Discovery
Programme, which funds space missions planned by an independent
group to keep down space exploration costs, capped at $150
million for Discovery missions.

Previously, NASA would plan the mission and solicit bids from
independent groups to work on individual components of the
project, resulting in higher costs and taking more time to
complete.


Copyright 1998 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved.







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             UFO Experiences Caused By Electromagnetic Signals?

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 01:05:59 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 23:09:32 -0400
Subject: UFO Experiences Caused By Electromagnetic Signals?

Some of the readers will know of Persinger's theories. I believe
that at least some UFO and paranormal phenomena are real, so I
don't accept all of his conclusions, but his research is
interesting.

Source: ABC News

http://www.abcnews.com/sections/living/SecondOpinion/secondopinion.html

Stig

*******

Health and Medical Issues in the News

Zapped by Science, Again

Second Opinion
by Nicholas Regush

"There is little study looking at how our states of awareness
and imagery might be affected by the electro- magnetic corridors
we inhabit."

                                        -- Michael Persinger, neuroscientist


Special to ABCNEWS.com

In a basement at a university in a small Canadian city sits a
chamber resembling a cramped bank vault. The experiments
performed there may challenge the scope of the raging debate
over whether electromagnetic fields from power lines, home
wiring and appliances can cause health problems.

Volunteers sit in the chamber's cushy armchair and don a
snug-fitting modified motorcycle helmet =97 studded on both sides
with coiled wire cylinders. They wait to be zapped with magnetic
fields sent to the brain via computer.

Neuroscientist Michael Persinger, the chamber's mastermind,
knows from extensive published data that he can control some of
the imagery his subjects experience by manipulating complex
electromagnetic patterns and their delivery to sites in the
brain.


Mind Games

Persinger has demonstrated under controlled conditions that he
can induce perceptions of mystical and paranormal events,
including visitations by gods, demons or other apparitions, and,
yes, indeed, of being abducted by alien creatures.

Persinger's research at Laurentian University in Sudbury,
Ontario, reveals that the brain can discriminate and respond to
even weak external magnetic fields, particularly when the fields
affect the temporal lobes.

"The brain is highly sensitive to information," says Persinger,
"and when magnetic fields are complex or irregularly pulsed,
these fields can begin communicating with the brain, altering
its information flow and the way the individual perceives
himself and the environment."

Studies elsewhere have shown that regions deep within the
temporal lobes, such as the amygdala and hippocampus, are
strongly associated with the regulation of emotions and are
highly unstable electrically. Stimulate those areas during
surgery, for example, and people typically report perceptions of
strange beings and mystical encounters.


Pathological Fixation

But in the studies of electromagnetic fields, Persinger says,
"Science has unfortunately almost entirely neglected their
impact on consciousness and behavior. There is very little study
today looking at how our day-to-day states of awareness and
imagery might be affected by the increasingly complex
electromagnetic corridors we inhabit."

His criticism is well-founded. The latest official scientific
pronouncement on the health effects of EMFs, released in July by
the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences and the
Energy Department, pays scant attention to consciousness and
behavior.

The main focus of debate on EMFs has always been on leukemia and
cancer. This latest assessment includes the "possibility" that
magnetic fields generated by power lines can cause leukemia in
children, and that on-the-job exposure can cause leukemia in
adults. Among other conclusions, the report cites weak evidence
that EMFs can cause sleep disturbances and inhibit a drug's
function in the body.


Stop, You're Scaring Me

No doubt we're in store for another round of scientific and
political controversy over EMFs. Some pundits have even called
for an end to research on the subject, declaring that science
has more or less shown there isn't much to the issue. Let's not
keep frightening the public, they plead.

Persinger suggests that such shortsighted debate will continue
until hell freezes over unless researchers pay more attention to
the patterns underlying electromagnetic signals, as he has done
in investigating their effects on the brain.

"There has been an obsession, based on current funding, with
studying very symmetrical and simplistic electromagnetic
signals," he says. Approaching it that way, he adds, "We're
going to miss out on a lot of information."

So is living in the midst of an electromagnetic smog something
like hanging out in Persinger's chamber? Is our day-to-day
existence modulated by pulses coming at us from this smog?

His research suggests that it's possible that our consciousness
and behavior are affected by certain electromagnetic signals.
Tests at Laurentian also indicate that some individuals might be
more vulnerable to these hits because their temporal lobes are
more electrically unstable.


Visions and Revisions

But why do so many subjects in the chamber experience strange,
even bizarre imagery? Persinger calls attention to the
instability of the temporal lobes and how everyone to some
degree has brief electrical outbursts, or microseizures, in
those regions.

He theorizes that when this occurs, information from the brain's
right hemisphere, more dominant in spatial, nonverbal tasks,
intrudes into the left hemisphere, noted for its role in
language and in providing us with a sense of self. For a moment,
at least, an altered state of awareness can emerge, including
visual and spatial distortions.

Do visions of demons, gods, UFOs and religious revelations occur
when these electrical brainstorms are coupled with our emotions
and cultural expectations? Are these events enhanced by complex
electromagnetic signals, and can we expect more of the same as
the EMF fog thickens?

Well, Persinger says yes, but obviously more research is in
order.

It always makes me smile when people think science has settled
an issue. And, oh, by the way, I've had the experience of
getting zapped in Persinger's chamber. Suffice to say that I'll
probably never walk under or near a power line again without
recalling that amazing 20-minute session.

Nicholas Regush produces medical features for ABCNEWS. In the
weeks ahead, he'll take an inside look at other trouble spots in
medicine, herald some innovative achievements and analyze
medical trends that will likely have great impacts on our lives.


Copyright (c)1998 ABCNEWS and Starwave Corporation. All rights
reserved.







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   Sep > Sep 4

             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 21:32:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 23:31:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?


>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:42:39 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>As far as creating agriglyphs is concerned, the technical
>ability to beam power is much too "coarse" to create the find
>designs in the fields. So even if there were some sort of power
>beaming satellite it would not be able to draw pictures in th
>fields. The best it could do would be to hold the center of the
>beam at a fixed point on the earth's surface (to within some
>error..... which would mean that the receiving area would
>probably have to be up to 50% larger than the beam area).


What would happen if a sensor of some type were implanted in the
field where the agriglyph was to be constructed, and the
satellite beamed a signal to the sensor, thus triggering the
creation of the glyph?

We know that microtechnology can create a complete computer
circuit on the head of a pin, so why could they not also create
the technology to do this?

Has anyone scanned the fields where these crop circles are
formed for some type of electronic device in the ground?

Just a thought.

REgards, Mike






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                  Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 23:26:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 23:42:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:46:55 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Comments: Space-based microwaves & crop circles

>>You are assuming that the American Government is being totally
>>truthful with us. I on the other hand doubt that they are. It
>>has been said as far back as the 60's that American Spy
>>Satellites had the capability of reading a newspaper over the
>>shoulder of a person standing on a street corner.

>Time for Mr. Christol to get a physics reality check. Anybody
>who said an American spy satellite could read a newspaper
>obviously didn't know what they were talking about. Even under
>_optimum conditions_ (e.g., no atmospheric distortion), the
>maximum angular resolution "A" of a circular aperature imaging
>system of diameter "d" imaging a wavelength L is given by A =
>1.22*L/d. Furthermore, "A" is also the size of the element you
>are trying to resolve, call it "x" divided by the height "h"
>that the satellite is above the ground, or A = x/h = 1.2*L/d.
>From this, we can calculate that the minimal resolvable size on
>the ground is x = 1.22*Lh/d.

Apart from all of this, please do me a favor and call me Mike.
Mr. Christol was my Father, and he is deceased...Thank You.

I won't even try to argue or rebut the following discourse. I
simply stated my opinions...

I am not a Physicist, and don't claim to be. I am simply a UFO
Investigator, who has been studying this phenomena since the
late 1950's.

I have run the gauntlet from "believer" to "skeptic," as I have
studied thousands of cases, talked with some of the top
authorities (if there is such a thing in this field) on ths
subject. Those who know me, know some of my work, even though I
am not an author, or circuit lecturer.

I am not impressed with the present application of physics in
these messages. It simply implys to me that someone wants to
impress us with their knowledge of physics and higher
mathmatics. I am not nor do I have an interest in such a
display. I will continue to express my opinions from time to
time, and I know that there are others out there who have seen
some of the articles to which I have referred in the past. If
they would simply come forward, they may very well have
reference to them.

>>Another thing, you seem to assume that they are testing the
>>satellite...I on the other hand do not make such an assumption.
>>I suggest they are deliberately adding to the UFO lore

>The only one here "deliberately adding to the UFO lore" seems to
>be Mr. Christol, with his elaborate and almost impossible
>theories of fantastic military secret projects somehow
>accounting for nearly all UFO reports, and even crop circles.

In fact, I am not "adding to the UFO Lore," but removing UFOs
from the equasion. Why is it that it is more likely that E.T.'s,
cross the Universe or jump through time and dimension, and let
us know they are here by creating crop glyphs. I don't think so.
I don't know how they are being created, apart from the human
factor. Show me the Alien...show me the Alien...show me the
Alien...<g>

>>by doing this, when in fact it may have nothing to do with UFOs.
>>As far as risking discovery of the pattern's source, how is that
>>going to happen? You don't see a "beam" projecting into the
>>fileds from above. You don't see anything.

>Here's one way it could happen. An airplane flies into the path
>of the potent microwave beam, has it's navigation disrupted, and
>crashes. Or how about a slight guidance error, which results in
>the microwave beam hitting a populated area instead of some
>field. That would get people's attention.

You mean like possibly flight 800? or the Swiss MD11 which just
crashed? I don't want you to assume that I am saying that US
Satellites had anything to do with their crashes, I am just
asking a question in response to your quotation above. <g>

>If the military wanted to play with space-based to ground energy
>beams, they would test them out in some highly deserted area,
>not direct them near populated regions. The danger of
>catastrophe is simply too great. And nobody has ever accused the
>military of having a delicate, artistic side. Their goal with
>powerful weapons is to make things go BOOM, not draw
>etch-a-sketch patterns in wheat fields from space using
>extraordinarily expensive systems.

I object Your Honor, the plaintif is speculating...it is his
opinion, simply hearsay... I refute this arguement by stating
that when the Military was developing the Atomic Bomb, in the
early 1940's, the deliberately exploded the bombs within two
miles of field soilders, and told them to dig a fox hole or duck
behind large rocks and not look into the flash of the bomb. Yes,
sir, they sure would test them in deserted areas... Just like
they have tested their virus's on the American public and the
Soilders in war zones....Agent Orange, for one, and what appears
to have been an Anthrax virus or nerve gas which apparently
infected and has been responsible for about 15,000 deaths and
illinesses of those soilders in the 1990 Gulf War. I am not the
source of this Information...It can indeed be checked out if one
wants to find it hard enough. One of the Doctors whose own
daughter served there and contracted the sickness, treated her
and then started treating others who came to him. No, the US
Military wouldn't test their technology on the public or in
populated areas...<sigh>

>>Again, this a purely subjective area of ufology.
>
>No, it's not a purely subjective area of ufology, because
>Mr. Christol's very fanciful theories of military secret weapons
>from space creating crop circles can be shown to be complete
>bunk using simple, very basic physical arguments. "Subjective"
>would mean that there was insufficient information to resolve the
>issue. That's not the case here.

Thank you for saying I have a vivid imagination...maybe I should
write a book on UFOs and Abductions, and swear that I was
abducted...wow....that sounds familiar...hmmm...where have I
heard that before? <g>

Let me say for the record that I have not been abducted by any
aliens, nor have I seen a "flying saucer," or "space ship." I
did have a UFO sighting in Sept. 1967 of 7 lights in a V
formation, but that is of no conquence here...

>>No...I am suggesting that ET's have nothing to to with this at
>>all. I am suggesting that it is purely a local phenomena, one
>>origionating, not in the depths of space, but from right here on earth.

>No, some space based military microwave beam won't work at all,
>which becomes much clearer below. Such a project would have to
>be absolutely massive in scope, a FACT that Mr. Christol doesn't
>seem to grasp.

You talk about facts, and yet when I suggest we are dealing with
a phenomena which origionated right here on this planet, built
and operated by humans of special intellectual bearing, then I
am the one who does not grasp "fact?" OK...I'll admit to that.

>>I am going to be honest with you Greg. I am not sure there are
>>ET's visiting this planet. I am convinced that at least 90 per
>>cent of ALL UFO sightings are a result of advanced technology
>>produced by someone on this planet, and that it has always been such.

>Mr. Christol seems to be pulling more fanciful rabbits out of a
>hat. Study after study has shown that 90% (give or take) of ALL
>sightings are misidentification of common objects and natural
>phenomena. Where did Mr. Christol come up with the figure that
>90% are the result of advanced military technology? Who knows?
>Perhaps Mr. Christol can cite even ONE study that has shown
>this.

Mike...remember? Mike...

Yes indeed, study after study does show that 90 percent of ALL
sightings are misidentification of common objects and natural
phenomena. I have no problem with that. But, I do have a problem
with those who automatically give credit to an alleged ET
civilization, which has not yet been proven to exist. So, if
there is no ET civilization coming here and performing all these
feats, then jut who the heck is? Could it be the "Ninja
Turtles?" How about the "Power Rangers?" See how rediculous this
sounds? I meant it to sound that way. I prefer to give credit to
those whom I know have the "means and where with" to possibly
create such a system, which, by the way could also be used for a
weapons system! Call it fantasy if you wish. I don't care. Just
show me differently. Isn't that what you are asking me to do?

>>I know this is not a popular point of view, but I have not seen
>>any evidence to dispute this.

>It's not a popular point of view, because numerous studies have
>proven it false. If Mr. Christol hasn't seen any evidence to
>dispute this, he simply hasn't been looking. He could start with
>something like Blue Book Special Report #14, which does a
>statistical analysis of over 2000 UFO reports.

Not only have I read Blue Book Special Report # 14, but I have
studied not only the 2000 reports they cite, but many, many
more.

In my 42 years of study and investigation of UFOs, I have
managed to accquire a quite extensive library of books, video
and audio tapes to which I can refer for information. Enough
about me...You don't need to know that much about me. But, as I
have said, there are some on here who do know me and know of my
involvement in this field. <G>

>>I know it is popular to blame everything on ET's.
>
>Mr. Christol's strawman argument. Nobody who is in the least
>knowledgable about the field "blames everything on ET's."

Mike...please...Mike...

I am not aruging...I am simply stating my opinion. You have
taken my remark totally out of context...you have twisted it and
made it sound as though it was I who blamed everything on ET's.
Shame on you. <g> But, I am not offended...keep on hammering...I
enjoy it...

>> But I also
>> know that the Military powers in this country have been working
>> with the CIA and other groups developing Mind Altering Drugs and
>> other techniques including sonic devices which effect the brains
>> ability to tell the difference from what we call reality and fantasy.

>If Mr. Christol "knows" this, it must be based on personal
>experience, given his inability to tell the difference from what
>we call reality and fantasy in the rest of his arguments,

Apparently, I have a source of Information which you don't...
What is in fact "Reality and Fantasy?" Can you convince me that
your world view is "a Reality?" How about an "Actuality?"
Everyone of us has "realities," but they are not always
"fantasies," nor are they "actualities." What is, IS... What we
"think a thing is," does not always constitute a FACT, or
Actuality! But, this is not the medium for this type of
discussion...please for- give my abuse here....

>>I also know this taps on the average UFO believers sacared beliefs.

>Again, I guess he "knows this" in the same way he knows that spy
>satellites can read newspapers, military satellites create crop
>circles, and 90% of all UFO sightings are really military secret
>projects.

I know you are being "cute/curt" here, but that if fine. I know
what I know...It is you who is misleading those who read this
message. I suggest you do some historical research on this and
not just lambast me for your own pleasure...However, I do
appreciate the attention...all attenion is welcome, good or bad.
<g>

>>Sure microwaves could produce the patterns through cloud cover.
>>They are using infrared devices to view the earth's surface
>>during cloudy weather and at night. These things you are
>>suggesting are not a problem.

>Well let's get down to the crunch here. What sort of space-based
>microwave imaging system would it take to create something
>remotely like a crop circle? It's really the same basic physics
>optics problem as in the spy satellite resolution question, but
>in reverse. The spy satellite receives EM radiation in the
>visual range. But the hypothetical microwave crop circle
>generator must transmit in the microwave range. The BIG
>difference here is that microwaves are orders of magnitude
>greater in wavelength than visible light and thus require orders
>of magnitude in size greater imaging systems. This is due to the
>inherent wave nature of light, which causes the waves to spread
>out from any aperature and also to interfere with themselves
>creating a diffraction pattern. This places fundamental
>limitations on how tightly you can focus any form of EM wave
>with a given size aperature.

I can't answer your question. But, I can speculate, as I have
already done. You speak "with authority." I salute you for your
knowledge...I just hope you know of what you speak. I hope it is
not just "opinion," for the purpose of giving others a negative
opinion of ME! If so, that's fine, I am not nor will I be
offended. Nor do I wish to offend you in return.

>Let's illustrate this with an example. Keep your "crop circle
>generator" only 100 miles up. Assume that it must be able to
>focus a spot on the ground only 1 m across to create something
>of the intricacy of geometric patterns seen in crop circles. To
>aid in getting this resolution, let's use a relatively short
>wavelenth of microwaves, namely 30 gigahertz microwaves, which
>would have a wavelength of only 1 cm. Now the question becomes,
>how big a microwave "dish" does it take to create such a spot
>(again assuming optimal atmospheric conditions causing no
>scatter)? Rearrange the first equation, and we get the equation:

>d = 1.22*Lh/x

>Plug in the values and you find that d = ~2000 meters!!!! That's
>a mile and a quarter across! How did our brilliant military
>manage to do that? How do they keep such a huge object invisible
>from the ground? Can you imagine the enormous resources it would
>take to place such an attenna in orbit? And to do what? To
>create crop circles, according to Mr. Christol, just to confuse
>us.

WOW! I am impressed..."a mile and a quarter acorss!" They are
better than I gave them credit for... No, I can't imagine the
enormous resources it would take. In my "opinion" this suggests
a knowledge of the latest scientific discoveries and
applications to military and scientific projects, which are not
shared with the public.

My knowledge of "Computer" technology, and the latest
advancements which the public has access to in computers
suggests that in less than ten years, the average person will be
able to perform almost magical feats at their computer
terminals. Remember, NASA landed a manned machine on the Moon in
1969 with a computer which is far inferrior to the average PC or
MAC in use by the average person today.

What else can they do with this technology? I would suggest that
the militry/scientific community has technology far in advance
of what the public is aware of at this time.

A contact of mine, which I cannot name, due to confidentiality,
told me, that if "WWIII" breaks out, or is emminant, that we
will see things in the sky which will seem like science
fiction!!! These machines of such fantastic development are
"allegedly" stored in the Underground Hangers which the Military
has developed over the past 50 plus years!

Just my imagination? Just fantasy? Shrug...who knows, but it
makes a good story...<G>

>In another post, Mr. Christol even went so far as to claim that
>his microwave crop circle generator was in geosynchronous orbit.
>Well, that greatly eases the tracking problem from low orbit,
>which is ENORMOUS. (Imagine trying to guide a rapidly moving
>giant antenna in space such that it remains focused on a spot
>100 or more miles away.) But look at what happens to the size of
>your antenna.

Do you remember the 100 foot sphere which was launched in the
early 60's called "ECHO?" It was a milar satellite which
reflected the sun's light for tracking experiments, for one
thing. I am sure it had other activities as well.

Those shperes could be positioned around the planet and used to
amplify the microwave or solar energy, could they not? They
could also be constructed to be much larger, possibly as much as
five or ten miles when they were inflated.

Did I not just read that NASA was replacing one of the aluminum
modules on the space station with a "baloon" which was much
stronger and "bullit proof" as well? Hmmm...what else are they
doing with such devices? Could they possibly use such a device
to "simulate a UFO" sighting? Hmmmm...just another thought.
Isn't the imagination wonderful?

>The height "h" of the satellite increase from 100 miles (160 km)
>to 22,600 miles (36,300 km), an increase of over 200 times. The
>size of the antenna dish "d"needed to image the same size 1
>meter spot on the ground must similarly increase over 200 times.
>Our hypothetical crop circle generator becomes 275 miles across!
>Now our clever black budget military is assembling objects the
>size of artificial moons, and still keeping it all invisible to
>the gullible ET believers.

Yawn....purely hypothetical, as far as I am concerned. Again,
you "assume" that the technology is far more primitive than it
may well be. I just don't know.....

>The only conceivable way to avoid using some impossibly huge
>dish antenna is to employ something along the lines of a phase
>array antenna, such as the ground-based HAARP project in Alaska,
>which is using a large array of radio- frequency attenae to get
>a focused beam of radio frequency energy. Thus instead of one
>solid structure for an antenna, you could put up a large fleet
>of individual satellites, and through another stupendous feat of
>space engineering, maintain them indefinitely at a constant
>distance from one another and emitting microwaves bearing a
>carefully controlled phase relationship to one another. If you
>can overcome these very formidable problems, you also get the
>advantage that you no longer need to physically steer the
>antenna in orbit in order to point the beam at the same point,
>but can electronically steer the beam by altering the relative
>phase between
>emitters.

Conceivable to whom?

>But all this takes a big fleet of satellites if you want a
>narrow beam. If you try to do it with just a few satellites, the
>vast bulk of your energy gets lost in the side beams produced by
>the interference pattern. Besides requiring much more energy to
>create a powerful enough central beam, this creates the very
>serious problem of a lot of targets being struck by the mulitude
>of side beams. It's like an assassin trying to shoot someone in
>a crowd by using a sawed-off shotgun loaded with buckshot at 100
>yards instead of using a rifle with a telescopic site. A lot of
>innocent people are going to get hit in the process and most of
>the ammunition is simply wasted.

Interesting...I saw something like this on StarTrek Voyager,
when a group of alien ships formed a ring around the central
ship and each joined their fire power in a concentrated beam
which totally destroyed the Borg planet....

>>Where they get the energy to
>>produce these things is easy...most of them are solar powered
>>these days. Which gives them an endless access to the power
>>necessary to operate all of the satellites operating systems.

>See Bruce Maccabee's post on this. If you try to use a smaller
>antenna, you get a very large beam spread instead of a tightly
>focused beam because of diffraction effects absolutely INHERENT
>in the physical situation. The smaller the aperature, the
>greater the diffraction effects, or spread due to the waves.
>That's why for better resolution, you always opt for bigger
>lenses, mirrors, or antenna dishes.

>So if you use small antenna and your beam is spread out all over
>the place, you require some ENORMOUS power plant just to get a
>sufficient energy density to cause the crop circles once the
>microwaves strike the ground. (This also ignores the fact that
>you can no longer carve out some highly localized, intricate
>pattern with such a spread-out beam). So if Mr. Christol thinks
>that it is "easy" to produce such energies with solar panels,
>maybe he should look at Bruce Maccabee's calculation that you
>would need something the size of 100-1000 nuclear power plants,
>that is hundreds of millions of kilowatts of power (and that's
>just from low earth orbit -- raise the power figures by four or
>more orders of magnitude for a geosynchronous orbit). Then
>figure out how big a solar array would be needed to produce that
>much power. You end up with numbers in the region of 100s to
>1000s of square miles (or millions of square miles from a
>geosynchronous orbit). How "easy" is that?

I didn't say a thing about it being easy...I just suggested that
it could be done. Not by me, that's for sure. <G>

>In summary, with a small antenna, you would need huge solar
>arrays to achieve the necessary energy densities on the ground.
>Inversely, if go to tightly focused beams to decrease the energy
>demands, then you need an enormous antenna or antenna arrays.
>Either way you're into massive space engineering projects that
>might cost hundreds of billions to trillions of dollars. Where
>do you get the money to build such systems, how do you launch
>and assemble them in space, all the time doing this completely
>unseen even after you have assembled these orbiting monsters?

Where do they get the money to do all of the other things they
do? If they want it, they will get the money...even if you and I
have to give it to them.

Yep, they use the technique of "hiding it in plain view." And to
borrow a line from a movie: "We don't lie, we just deny."

>>Hey, Greg...that is fine...I have no problem with your opinions.
>>I am simply exchange ideas with you, not attacking you. As I
>>have said, to this point it is purely subjective...

>I suggest Mr. Christol take a course in basic physics. Perhaps
>then he can learn to tell the real difference between what he
>terms "opinions" and the "purely subjective," and physical
>FACTS. Just a little back-of-the-envelope type calculations
>can go a long way. It proves that his space-based, military,
>super-secret microwave crop-circle generator is unbelievable
>nonsense, more fantastic than believing UFOs _might_ be
>responsible for _some_ crop circles, and even far more fantastic
>than believing they are all hoaxed by Doug and Dave.


Ha, ha, ha...yes, I remember Doug and Dave quite well. But as
far as taking a basic physic course goes, I did...back in High
School. But that was another lifetime.

I won't debate you on this terminology now...Most of what we are
discussing did not exist in our reality back then.

>David (not Doug and Dave) Rudiak

Take care David...I really enjoyed your discourse.

REgards, Mike






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 4

                  Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles

From: "Serge Salvaille" <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 00:50:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 23:50:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:46:55 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Comments: Space-based microwaves & crop circles

<snip>

>system of diameter "d" imaging a wavelength L is given by A =
>1.22*L/d. Furthermore, "A" is also the size of the element you
>are trying to resolve, call it "x" divided by the height "h"
>that the satellite is above the ground, or A = x/h = 1.2*L/d.
>From this, we can calculate that the minimal resolvable size on
>the ground is x = 1.22*Lh/d.

>Now let's select some _optimal_ numbers for the variables to
>give you the best possible resolution (again neglecting such
>things as atmospheric turbulence which wreaks havoc with
>telescope images, seriously degrading them). Suppose your spy
>satellite is only 100 miles (160 km) up, about the lowest
>practical distance you can place it without it quickly being
>dragged out of orbit by residual atmospheric friction. Suppose
>further that "d" is equivalent to the largest current
>space-based telescope, namely the Hubble telescope, with an
>aperature of 60 inches or about 1 m in diameter. Now choose a
>relatively short wavelength of light to again increase
>resolution. Let L = 5 * 10^-7 m, the wavelength of blue-green
>light.

<snip>

David,

For the fun of it:

From:
http://www.coseti.org/9008-065.htm

Hubble has

Primary Mirror Diameter = 2.4 m (89 inches)
Angular Resolution (500 nm) = 0.043 arcsecond
Pointing Accuracy = 0.012 arcsecond

From:
http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/hst/QA/Definitions/Arcsecond_defined.1

We get that:

.043 arcsecond = 1.194 * 10^-5 deg
ResolutionFactor = sin(.043 arcsecond) = 2.085 * 10^-7

Resolution at 100 miles . . .

ResolutionFactor * 160 000 m = 33 cm = 1.375 inches

You'll probably be able to read the newspaper headers when
McGuire hits 62nd.

Nice view,

Serge







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 5

                            Re: E.T., E-Mail Home

From: Michel M. Deschamps <739411@ican.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 01:16:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 00:05:35 -0400
Subject: Re: E.T., E-Mail Home


> From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
> To: updates@globalserve.net
> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 20:11:05 +0200
> Subject: E.T., E-Mail Home

> Source: Intellectual Capital

> http://www.intellectualcapital.com/issues/98/0903/icsmart.asp

> Stig

> *******

> E.T., E-mail Home
> by Elias Crim

> September 3, 1998

> Following this article, we have set up a special moderated
> discussion section for those who wish to comment. After you read
> the article, be sure to add your opinion.

> Among the stranger e-mails I have received lately was one from
> my pal Zeke. The strange part was the attached file -- a big
> glob of raw data.

> "So what is this gunky file you sent me?" I asked when I finally
> reached Zeke at his hacker's home base.

> "Hah, can't you tell? That's probably some kind of
> extraterrestrial high-five looking back at you."

> Oh no, I thought. "Did you say extraterrestrial?"

> "Yeah. I signed up for the beta test team on the Search for
> Extraterrestrial Intelligence, or SETI for short. There will
> soon be thousands of us out here, all downloading pieces of sky
> from giant radio telescopes and then crunching our little data
> files to see if we can hear some galactic talk radio or
> something."

<snip>

I felt it was time for me to put my foot down when it comes to
SETI and its "search" for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. I have
seen and heard these astronomers so many times on TV
documentaries, explaining what their work consist of, how
important it is, and justifying it by showing off all the neat
instruments they get to use. What arrogance!

Personally, I think SETI's all a waste of time, money, and
energy. Some of those astronomers have even said themselves that
they "believed" extraterrestrial intelligences to be more
advanced than we are. And yet, they expect us to believe that
the ETs are (or would be) using radio signals to communicate
with us? What kind of logical assessment is that?

If ETs are thousands of years (or more) ahead of us (based on
the fact that they've had a head start on us by a billion years
or so...depending on the age of other stars in comparison with
our Sun), then it would be more logical to say that, by now,
they would've achieved (and possibly mastered) space travel.
Which is what we, their much younger counterparts, are just
beginning to do. Within the span of a hundred years (or less),
we have gone from flying the Wright Brothers' airplane to
sending astronauts to the Moon. We have achieved great feats of
technological advances. Should we not expect the same of a
species that is more intelligent, and possibly much older than
we are?

Physical landing traces left behind by landed objects of unknown
origin have been documented for the past fifty years or more.
The proof in NOT out there; it's down here. A lot of folks have
beaten the astronomers to the punch. Contact has already been
made by several people around the world who have found
themselves face to face with UFO Occupants (Read book:
'Encounters With UFO Occupants' by Coral & Jim Lorenzen;
Copyright 1976, by APRO, Inc. SBN: 425-03093-8). Not to mention
that some astronomers themselves have had sightings of unusual
objects through their telescopes (See attachment).

I believe that the only reason SETI astronomers want (or expect)
to be the first ones to make contact with an alien civilization
is that they want to justify all the years they spent studying
astronomy in College and University. They just don't want to be
told that it was all a big waste of time.

But don't get me wrong. When it comes to studying stars,
planets, galaxies, and other astronomy-related phenomena, no one
is better suited for the job than an astronomer. But don't get
involved in something you know absolutely nothing about.

Oh yeah. I almost forgot the most important thing. Next time you
see these astronomers on TV, take a good look. Most of the time,
you'll see them sitting in front of a computer monitor, looking
for any sign of radio signals. Don't expect them to see any UFOs
any time soon. They're cooped up inside somewhere, while the
rest of us actually get to go outside and look up at the sky
whenever we want to. Standing behind a telescope isn't helping,
either. While they're spending their time looking up at a small
fraction of the sky, they're missing out on the activity taking
place on the sideline.

I've had several sightings of UFOs, both daytime and nighttime.
I know (and have met) a lot of other people who have had far
more interesting sightings than my own. People who have seen
UFOs draining electrical current from power lines. Others
reported that their cars stalled as objects got closer to them.
Some said they could feel static electricity on their skin as
the object flew over them at a height of fifty feet, etc... I've
spoken to (and gotten letters from) people from every walk of
life: police officers, miners, lawyers, real estate agents,
telephone company workers, mechanics, etc., who reported having
seen UFOs at different times of day, at different locations,
within 200 miles of here. And that's just one small spot on the
globe. So you can just imagine that there's a lot of folks out
there who know (and have seen) a lot more. We can't all be
crazy. I hope these astronomers get a chance to see something,
before they get too disappointed and depressed with their jobs.
That's it, thanks for your time.


Michel M. Deschamps
UFO Researcher
739411@ican.net


The following mentions were taken from 'UFODaze - A Different
Ufo Event For Every Day Of The Year' by Pat Nolan.


March 6, 1716:

Astronomer Edmond Halley watched an object which illuminated the
night sky for two hours.


November 17, 1882:

Astronomer E. Maunder of the Royal Observatory, England, saw "a
strange celestrial visitor".


August 12, 1883:

The first known photograph of UFOs was taken by Jose Bonilla at
the Zacatecas Observatory in Mexico, as almost 150 objects
passed in front of the sun.


December 24, 1909:

James Fergusen, an amateur astronomer from Lemerick, Ireland,
watched a bright object darting around the horizon.


August 9, 1949:

Astronomer Clyde Tombaugh, the discoverer of Pluto, observed a
cigar-shaped object with a row of yellow openings over Las
Cruces, NM.


August 3, 1951:

Professor Walter Webb, of the Hayden Planetarium, watched a
yellow-red light dart about the sky in Lansing, MI.


July 6, 1954:

Astronomer Frank Halstead of the Darling Observatory in MN, saw
a large straight black line in a crater on the Moon where no
line was there before or after.


May 30, 1963:

Astronomer Bart Bok of Canberra, Australia, along with two
others, observed an orange circular object.


October 29, 1963:

The Lowell Observatory, AZ, detected two clusters of bright red
lights in a crater on the Moon, that were moving about.

July 27, 1967: A group of astronomers in Newton, NH, observed a
cylindrical object.







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   Sep > Sep 5

                       Essay Contest - URL Correction

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:35:34 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 00:19:56 -0400
Subject: Essay Contest - URL Correction

>List,

>>If this has been posted before, please forgive me for repeating
>it. But Robert Bigelow's National Institute of Discovery Science
>(NIDS) is sponsoring an essay contest with three $5000 winners.
>The subject matter of the contest will change every 75 days or
>so. The deadline for the first round was in August, so a new
>theme should be announced shortly. For additional details, see:

>http://www.accessnv.com/nids/essay/shtml

>Dennis


Sorry about that, List. Chop off the final "essay/shtml" and it
should work.

That would make the URL read:

http://www.accessnv.com/nids

Scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on NIDS Essay
Competition.

Dennis







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 5

                  Re: Alien Rupture - the truth breaks out.

From: Tim Matthewsm <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 07:02:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 01:17:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Alien Rupture - the truth breaks out.


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 16:31:34 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Alien Rupture - the truth breaks out. Challenge!

>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 06:57:32 +0100
>Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:19:27 -0400
>Subject: Alien Rupture - the truth breaks out. Challenge!

>>I have been reading this Edgar Fouche stuff. Alien Crapture more like!

>>It is utter nonsense as I show below with just a few quick
>>examples. The first thing to say is that most of the correct
>>technical details - there are always a few in disinformation or
>>science fiction - could have been gleaned from any half-decent
>>textbook on military affairs or through the most casual perusal
>>of a book or article by Bill Sweetman.

>Although there is good reason to be skeptical of Fouche's book,
>which indeed could have been written after gleaning information
>available through other books, I nevertheless must take issue
>with the following totally unfounded criticisms by Tim Matthews.

>>Slide 69; "TR3B Operational Version".

>>Reducing the mass of a nuclear generator by 89%? I don't think so.

>Fouche certainly isn't the first to propose that UFOs might
>reduce their mass in order to achieve high maneuverability, high
>linear acceleration, and hoverability. E.g., James MacCampbell
>proposed this in his book "Ufology" some 25 years ago (but
>proposed no mechanism to account how they might do so). And
>recent theoretical work by Puthoff and Haisch as to the
>fundamental origins of inertial mass leave the possibility open
>that it can be manipulated.

>>"With the vehicle mass reduced by 89% the craft can travel at
>>mach 9 vertically or horizontally. My sources say the
>>performance is limited only by the stresses that the human
>>pilots can endure. Which is a lot, really, considering along
>>with the 89% reduction in mass, the G forces are also reduced by
>>89%."

>>Utter nonsense. Mass and g forces have no relationship to each other.

>Utter nonsense? That is one of the most fundamental equations in
>all physics: Force = Inertial Mass * Acceleration. You know,
>Newton's second law of motion, taught in the first week of high
>school physics.

>So if you reduce the inertial mass by 89%, the force experienced
>by that mass undergoing an acceleration is likewise reduced by
>89%. QED. That's all Fouche is claiming, and in this one
>instance, the man is absolutely correct.]

Just a minute. Both you and Napoleon, sorry Fouche, are making
assumptions. In fact you are supporting this manipulator's wild
speculations. Fouche is making it all up as we all know. Did you
know he's a direct descendent of Napoleon?

That's what he's claiming. Off with his head I say!

Your possibilities are slim possiblities not facts. Don't mix
the two up.

In the case of the shuttle pilots they're going in a straight
(ish) line and not violently moving from side to side in a
'recovered technology' triangular craft horizontally and
vertically at mach 9.


>>Regardless of so-called 'mass' the pilot would suffer the g turns.

>True utter nonsense. Any "suffering" would be reduced by 89% if
>you reduce the mass by 89%. A 100 G turn at 100% ordinary mass
>would be equivalent to an 11G turn at 11% reduced mass.

But I want Fouche to give us details about how this is done
please!!!


>>As to travelling vertically 'at mach 9' with a pilot.
>>Forget about it!

>Why? Space shuttles do it all the time at even higher Mach
>numbers.

You've missed the point entirely!


>>At mach 9 and travelling in a straight line g forces would be no
>>problem as such. Only when performing turns or evasive maneuvers
>>- fairly impossible at Mach 9 but no matter - would g forces
>>operate.

>True, only when actually accelerating does the craft and crew
>experience G- forces. The acceleration can be linear (speeding
>up, slowing down) or when making turns (centripetal
>acceleration).

Turns or vertical ascent? NOT the same thing! Horizontal flight
with a sudden vertical ascent at mach 9. Count me out! Talk
about Mr. Ketchup head!

>But the real point is still this: the G-forces on craft and crew
>during any acceleration are reduced by 89% if the inertial mass
>is reduced by 89%. Some maneuverability at Mach 9 then becomes
>possible.


Yeah but Fouche is not talking about some. He's making all kinds
of wild claims in non-defence contractor language.

No doubt he'll argue that he's trying to make it easy for us!

>>"The crew of the TR3B should be able to comfortably take up to 40Gs".

>>Are we really expected to take this seriously?

>Absolutely. If you reduce the inertial mass by 89%, then the
>crew only experiences .11*40 = 4.4 G's. That's pretty standard G
>forces for military pilots (or astronauts to give another
>example), who may pull 2 or even 3 times for brief periods in
>extreme maneuvers. They could tolerate 4.4 G's standing on their
>heads.

But how has this been acheived? Must be those aliens that Fouche
or Lazar or Lear have never seen......

>>Read any basic aviation text; +/- 9g maybe, even 10g. get to
>>between 12-18 g and you're talking UAVs.......

>Again, it is quite obvious that Tim Matthews doesn't grasp
>really BASIC Newtonian physics. If you reduce the mass, you
>reduce the G-forces. Ergo 40 G's becomes 4.4 G's if you could
>somehow reduce the mass 89%.

Yes, but HOW?

More ifs and buts....No facts.....


>>The reason that classified projects have concentrated upon
>>active camouflage is precisely because a plane at high speeds
>>might not be able to out-maneuver the new range of
>>near/hypersonic AA missiles - obviously g turns rule out evasive
>>action at such high speeds.....

>>If you see what I mean.

>We see what you mean, but you are simply wrong in this instance.

><snip>

>>Well folks this is just a brief comment upon second reading of
>>the talk supposedly given by Fouche at the Laughlin UFO
>>Conference just recently. I could call Fouche a liar but I think
>>he's just on the bandwagon.....the real classified Projects
>>people must really love him......

>>I challenge him and any of his supporters to debate these issues
>>either live in front of an audience or on a talk radio show.

>>Know what? They'll lose.

>Not in this instance. Mr. Matthews loses big time.

I don't think so.

>There are
>other bones I could pick with Mr. Matthews various statements in
>this and other posts, but his utter lack of comprehension about
>the relationship between mass and G forces just stuck out like a
>sore thumb. What is it with these Brit

English actually

>UFO skeptics anyway?
>They're taught how to debate and write, but don't any of them
>take science and math courses?

Well actually do you know one way the military have done it? By
putting pilots in a prone position. This allows for 'g' turns up
to even 11 (I'm told) and that's it.

Anything else is just sci-fi at this stage but then Ufology is
sci-fi...

What's with this handful of Americans who support every wild
and unproven theory?

I don't see Rudiak supporting Fouche's comments about hydrogen
in the upper atmosphere, MJ-12 (fake!), the Corso book, the
"TR-3B" his numerous mistakes about the SR-71 and so forth.

He also supports the 'Alien Autopsy' film. Another nail in the
coffin.

Yes, you just have to be skeptical. One day people like Mr
Rudiak will have to admit that this alien thing is a convenient
cover for the operation of a range of secret military aircraft
and other secret technologies.

Unlike the EThers we have REAL documents and real aircraft.

Why do we never hear anything about Project Silver Bug?

Of course I don't expect anyone especially Friedman, Clark and
co to change their minds and I don't expect people in the US to
ask many difficult questions about Roswell, the ETH, supposed
abductions because all these have combined together nicely with
anti-government paranoia to create a new religion for the late
Twentieth Century and the new Millenium.

The more I read about Fouche and his claims the more ridiculous
they seem. Extraordinary evidence? No - just extraordinary
claims supported by very little except an insistence that we
must believe.


>>Tim Matthews - standing up for common sense and factual analysis!


That's me!

>Yeah, yeah. Tell us all about it. Like only the UFO skeptics are
>for common sense and factual analysis. Funny how their "facts"
>are so often complete rubbish

Er. not really.

> as they arrogantly criticize the pro-UFO faction.

There are objects described as UFOs - undoubtedly - but as far
as most sensible people are concerned no alien recovered
vehicles.

What a marvellous cover story for the retrieval of Soviet (in
the recent past) aircraft and experimental US airplanes.

I often disagree with the 'skeptics' - whoever they are -
because they trot out plenty of official propaganda.

BUT, as my mate Chris said to me last week, "don't bother
arguing the toss because you end up arguing with tossers".

I hope you pick up your CIA paycheck soon.

Only joking!

>>FIND OUT ABOUT THE BOOK THEY FAILED TO BAN! "UFO REVELATION -
>>THE SECRET TECHNOLOGY EXPOSED!" BY TIM MATTHEWS OUT VERY
>>EARLY 1999. IT'S GONNA KICK ASS!

>Oh great! A British version of Kal Korff, complete with the
>capitalized shouting and the self-promotional bragging how his
>new book is going to rip the lid off of this or that.

The advert obviously worked on you!

Actually, I'm not for ripping lids off anything much.

The book is OK and actually I rather like Kal Korff's expose of
that nut Billy Meier.

>Like I said at the beginning, there is much to be skeptical
>about Fouche, but the man shouldn't be attacked on highly
>erroneous grounds. If I were to judge the Fouche claims of
>inertial mass reduction, it would be on the basis of whether the
>proposed mechanism made any sense. Fouche doesn't really spell
>out the basic physical principle underlying this proposed mass
>reducer.

Because it probably doesn't exist and even if by some quirk of
fate the scientists working on classified projects had developed
similar technologies why should this be evidence of alien disc
recoveries!

>That would perhaps make it falsifiable and subject to
>scientific analysis. Instead it's simply a claim that can't be
>evaluated one way or another, and, therefore, could simply be
>made up.


And simply is made up like all the other crap in his book.

Let's do that debate!






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 5

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis  Staqcy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:16:18 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 01:22:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 19:53:49 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

<snip>

David,

I'm curious about some of your assumptions, which you seem to
think are carved in granite, or HARD EVIDENCE, as you put it.

>Unlike Mr. Kal Korff, I do have the following HARD EVIDENCE
>strongly suggesting deception by Ramey in Fort Worth:

>* 1947 newspaper stories indicating that Ramey had changed the
>crashed disk press release story within about an hour of it
>going on the wire, Ramey stating at this time that he thought it
>was the remains of a weather balloon and radar target. This was
>about an entire hour BEFORE Mr. J. B. Johnson showed up in
>Ramey's office to take pictures, about 2 hours before Irving
>Newton was called in to identify the debris, and most
>astoundingly, before Marcel's plane even arrived in Fort Worth.

Surely, you admit that Ramey had access to a telephone. He
wouldn't have had to wait for a plane to land, in other words,
if someone on the ground in Roswell had already concluded that a
huge mistake had been made. Plans to hold a press briefing in
Ft. Worth could have been already underway and, logically, they
would have been, the latter being more accessible to the press
than remote Roswell. What's so "astounding"?

>* At the same time, Ramey stating originally that the
>tinfoil-composed object was 25 feet across. Does anybody see
>anything remotely close to 25 feet across in the photos? Do you
>supposed Ramey made this up?
>

Again, I can't follow your reasoning. So what? Would you expect
him to have something 25 feet across hauled into his office for
pictures? Wouldn't they have to considerably widen a door or
knock down a wall to accommodate same? Furthermore, who's to say
the quote was accurate? I've been quoted in the past both by my
local newspaper and Newsweek, and misquoted at that in both
instances.

>* A 4-foot long stick in the Fort Worth photos that is too long
>to agree with the testimony of Mac Brazel, Jesse Marcel, and
>Robert Porter, all of whom placed the longest beam or stick at
>three feet or less. The 4-foot stick could only have gotten
>there by substitution. What's more, somebody involved with the
>1995 A.F. Report (most likely Lt. McAndrew, who was responsible
>for this portion of it) obviously noticed the discrepancy and
>altered the photographic evidence to make it agree with the
>testimony. When McAndrew turned the Fort Worth photos over to
>CIA photoanalysts to determine stick length, the offending 4
>foot stick was cropped down to three feet in the working
>schematic and in the final calculation. (See Attach. 33 in the
>Report)

This looks like mountains out of mole hills to me. Brazel or
anyone else saying that the longest piece was only three feet
long would have been making a judgment call at best (if
accurately quoted). You would also have to assume that he/they
personally viewed every piece of debris in what was supposed to
have been a huge debris field. While you're at it, you might
hazard a guess as to why the internal support beams of a flying
saucer (if that's what they were) would come apart in lengths
universally less than three feet long.

>* The remains of a radar target in the photos that don't even
>add up to the remains of a single radar target, much less three
>Mogul radar targets (see same photo analysis in A.F. Report --
>there are only16 feet total of sticks vs. 48 feet for a full
>ML-307 skeleton). A small pile of balloon debris that would
>represent only a tiny fraction of the two dozen neoprene
>balloons making up the alleged crashed Mogul. An FBI telegram
>and statements from Ramey and Irving Newton that this was the
>remains of a SINGULAR weather balloon and a SINGULAR radar
>target, not a multi-balloon, multi-radar target Mogul.

Again, I find your reasoning hard to follow. Are you suggesting
that _everything_ recovered at this point should have been
hauled into Ramey's office and dumped on the floor for
photographs? This is absurd. And if the FBI telegram is so
theoretically important, why would Ramey have had it in his hand
during the picture session, when a reporter might have asked
what it said? Why wasn't it safely tucked away in a desk drawer?

>* Rubber balloon debris that looks remarkably intact and pliant
>for a balloon that was supposedly left in the hot sun for a full
>month, where it should have deteriorated into small, brittle
>flakes. In fact, it looks very much like a deflated, SINGULAR
>weather balloon. Hmmmm.

Do we know that it was hot sun for a full month (or was it three
weeks?) during the time in question?

>* No mention of any odor to any of the debris by any witness who
>may have come in close contact with it BEFORE Fort Worth. In
>particular, nobody mentioned anything about the acrid smell of
>old neoprene rubber weather balloons left in the sun to rot. The
>very first mention that there was such an odor was by Johnson,
>who noticed it when he came into Ramey's office. This was AFTER
>both Marcel and Dubose claimed that Ramey swapped in a
>substitute balloon for the real debris.

But then they would have come into contact in the open air, with
wind blowing, which is quite a bit different environment than
the confines of a closed (perhaps un-airconditioned) room, isn't
it? This assumes that all witnesses were asked about an odor or
chose to volunteer such information.

>* Newspaper stories the morning of July 8 (e.g., Roswell Morning
>Dispatch), with one of Ramey's top officers, Col. John D. Ryan,
>the Fort Worth base operations officer (and a future A.F. Chief
>of Staff), stating he thought radar targets might account for
>the flying saucer reports. Clearly this explanation for the
>flying saucers was in Ramey's inner circle the day BEFORE the
>crashed disk press release, plenty of time to have cooked up a
>weather- balloon cover story if necessary.

So what's so sinister? This is a perfectly innocent and
"logical" statement to make, so far as the military was
concerned at the time.

>* Newspaper stories on July 9, stating that the Army and Navy
>had embarked on a campaign to debunk the saucers. There were
>several staged Army or Navy weather balloon demonstrations in
>the days following (one of them being at Alamogordo on July 9),
>in which radar targets (including Mogul style ML-307 radar
>targets) or more commonly used radiosonde weather balloons were
>trotted out and used to explain all of the nationwide rash of
>flying saucer reports. I hope to have the photos and newstories
>up on Jean van Gemert Website soon.

I look forward to seeing same.

>* No note or indication of any sort in Jesse Marcel's subsequent
>military record of him screwing up a balloon identification and
>nationally embarrassing the Air Force from Roswell to the
>Pentagon. On the contrary, Marcel receiving recommendations for
>promotion to Lt. Col in the Reserve from both Blanchard and
>Dubose (acting on behalf of Ramey as his Chief of Staff) just
>four months after Roswell. Col. Blanchard's evaluation of Marcel
>the following April, which covered the period of the Roswell
>events, gave Marcel his HIGHEST numerical rating ever, placing
>him well-within the "Superior" range. Col. Dubose endorsed this
>evaluation, noting no negatives. When Marcel was transferred to
>higher intelligence work (how did he manage that?) a year after
>Roswell, Col. Ryan (remember him?) called Marcel's record "most
>outstanding" and "most exemplary." But best yet, Gen. Ramey
>likewise called Marcel "outstanding," protested his transfer
>(saying he had nobody to replace him), and finished by saying he
>thought Marcel was definitely command officer material based on
>his past performance. How exactly did Marcel finagle such praise
>from people like Ramey, Ryan, Dubose and Blanchard (all of whom
>finished as USAF generals) if he supposedly so badly screwed up
>and embarrassed himself?

No note in Marcel's record, either, that he obviously violated
existing security procedures by stopping by his home with the
debris before reporting to his commanding officer. Wouldn't you
consider that a breach of conduct on the part of an intelligence
officer? No indication, either, that Marcel and Cavitt thought
that what they had retrieved from the Foster ranch warranted
waking up Blanchard in the middle of the night. Presumably,
Cavitt simply went home and went to bed. Hmmm. Best as we can
tell, the debris wasn't shown to Blanchard until the following
morning.


>* Marcel's next post being SAC Chief of a foreign technology
>intelligence division. The SAC insisted they get him when the
>A.F. Hdqtrs at the Pentagon asked to have him for another post
>at the same time. How exactly did a so- called bungling
>intelligence officer get such a technical intelligence post,
>when he supposedly couldn't even identify simple balloon debris?

You might as well ask (and explain yourself) similar questions
regarding Blanchard's behavior. Not only did he authorize a
press release announcing the recovery of a flying disc (not
small, shredded pieces of same) without prior approval from
higher headquarters, but he also seems to have badly bungled the
press release he did issue.

For example, he could only have gotten his information from
debriefing Marcel and Cavitt the following morning, having
simultaneously viewed the debris samples they would have shown
him. How, then, did he manage to issue a press release stating
that a relatively intact flying disc had been hauled into a
rancher's shed for storage? No pro-Roswell researcher that I
know has ever adequately addressed this question. May you be the
first.

Note that Blanchard screwed up royally in this regard -- by
issuing the press release without approval from higher
headquarters -- but that he, too, was later promoted.

>* Ramey remaining involved in UFO investigations in some
>capacity after Roswell and continuing to deceive the public. On
>July 29, 1952, Ramey, now Air Defense Command Chief, was at Gen.
>Samford's side during the infamous Washington press conference
>in which they debunked the highly publicized Washington
>radar/visual cases as being caused by thermal inversions.  Gen.
>Ramey then went on CBS-TV (see N.Y. Times, 8/4/52, p. 3) and
>stated that although 20% of UFO cases studied were still
>unidentified, there were no cases at all where anything could be
>tracked consistently on radar or shown other evidence of being a
>material object. (This was more of Ramey's deception, since
>there were several good radar cases plus photographic evidence
>in A.F. files which we now know of.) Ramey then suggested they
>may be some form of unexplained natural phenomena and
>constituted no threat. In other words, Ramey took the standard
>A.F. debunking line when speaking to the public.

So? If he was hell-bent on dissembling, why would he have
mentioned the fact that one out of five cases were unexplained?
Why wouldn't he claim that only one or five per cent were
unsolved? And if he said UFOs couldn't be "tracked consistently
on radar" (your words) what's wrong with that? Do you have hard
evidence, excuse me, HARD EVIDENCE, that UFOs _can_ be tracked
consistently on radar, or is that tracked only on occasion?

<snip>

[Korff said]
>>William, what _hard_evidence_ do you have that Roswell
>>"witnesses" were threatened with death, etc?

>Well here's some _hard evidence._ We definitely have a quote
>from Sheriff Wilcox published in the Albuquerque Journal the
>next day. When pressed for more details on what the debris
>looked like, the Journal reported that Wilcox "declined to
>elaborate," explaining that he was "working with those fellows
>at the base."

>Although this obviously doesn't prove that Wilcox was threatened
>with death, it does strongly indicate that anything Wilcox
>stated to the press on July 8 was NOT independent testimony nor
>necessarily freely given. By this time he was working with the
>military, as he admitted. And it is right in line with
>statements from two members of the Wilcox family that Wilcox had
>been threatened.


First, you start off saying that you have _hard evidence_, then
in the next graf you say, "Although this obviously doesn't prove
that Wilcox was threatened with death..." So which is it? Hard
evidence or circumstantial evidence, depending on nearly 50 year
old memories and anecdotal accounts? And what about Glenn
Dennis's claims of death threats? How highly (ie, credible) do
you rate those now?

<snip>

>It is no different with Roswell. We do have the documented
>statement direct from Wilcox indicating he was unable to speak
>freely. That is right in line with testimony of the Wilcox
>family and also AP reporter Jason Kellahin, who says he tried to
>speak to Wilcox in Roswell later that day, but Wilcox was very
>circumspect.

So Wilcox was circumspect? Wouldn't that have been the case if
the Army hadn't wanted Project Mogul made public? You use
"documented statement" as if that solved everything. We've got
all sorts of "documented" statements about Roswell that we now
know to be less than true or honest, let alone documented
(whatever that means).

<snip>

>
>Now why in the world would they need to keep Brazel locked up
>for a week if it was nothing but a Mogul balloon crash?
>

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but it's always been my
impression that Mogul itself was a secret project at the time.
Secret is secret. You might as well assert that
Japanese-Americans on the west coast were locked up because UFOs
were reported over Los Angeles in 1941, although it seems more
likely that it was an aftermath of Pearl Harbor. That assumes
that all statements about Marcel's incarceration are not just
documented, but actually reflect reality.

<snip>

>David Rudiak


Dennis







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 5

                           Re: Black Helicopters?

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:51:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 09:39:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Helicopters?


>Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:28:40 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Black Helicopters?
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:58:44 +0100
>>To: updates@globalserve. net
>>From: Keith Stevens <k.stevens@virgin. net>
>>Subject: Black Helicopters

>>Hello List

>>Would someone answer a few questions that I have regarding
>>'Black Helicopters'?

>>I live in an area frequented by Military Helicopters, the
>>standard British Army/RAF 'Camo' patterned types.

>>One thing I've noticed is that they all look Black at a
>>distance, some, depending on the light available and the angle
>>of the sun can look Black surprisingly close. As for markings,
>>if you have not got a pair of 'Binos' to hand, forget it you
>>will not see any.

>>Question - Has anyone actually asked people who have seen Black
>>Helicopters where the sun was at the time, how far away the
>>Helicopter was, what where the weather conditions, how familiar

>Very perceptive... but so what? I've seen helicopters painted
>black with no markings at close distance... tens of feet. Sun
>location irrelevant.

>Also viewed some through binoculars. Whether black helicopters
>are related to UFO sightings or not, they exist.


Why do so many revel in their fantasies of what constitutes
legal and illegal aircraft markings?  A few years ago, perhaps
on a skunkworks newsgroup, someone who seemed to be speaking
authoritavely, said that the current requirements for military
aircraft markings were that you had to be able to read them at
armslength from the surface in midday light.  No requirement at
all that they be visible in flight by the casual observer.  Many
military planes are now marked in deep black on their dark grey
surface.  And, any dunce driving by a military airfield in the
past few years would have to notice that more and more aircraft
are giving up their camo schemes for some dark shade of grey.

So, if a person sees a "black," "unmarked" helicopter flying
over their neighborhood, it is as likely flying a fresh supply
of toilet paper to a suburban weekend warrior field training as
doing anything sinister...  However, if you see a corporate
marked bird circling over your house with an orthogonal pair of
log periodic antennas pointed at your roof, pause to worry...

Bye...  Ted..








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 5

                    Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 18:44:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 09:50:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?


>Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:26:39 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?

>As far as possible "beam" capabilities, and their alleged
>involvement in the creation of Crop Circles, I have seen no
>actual research or evidence that would indicate that such a
>linkage exists. This seems like a theory based primarily on
>capabilities that are rooted in rumor and beliefs, and not hard
>evidence.

>Steve

Hi Steve.

I did not mean to imply that they were using "beam" capabilities
to read "newspapers." They simply use highly sophisticated
camera's. I did not make this up. I have a printed article
somewhere in my data base, hard copy, directly from a newspaper
back in the middle to late 60's, which made that statement.

I just wish, for my sake, <G> that I could find it. Then, people
would have to argue with the newspaper which published it,
rather than me. <G>

Take care.

REgards, Mike








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                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 21:58:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 10:04:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage


>From: Robert Irving <RobIrving@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:43:41 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage


>>Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 21:19:30 -0500 (CDT)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>Hi Dennis

>>That, or Mexico City suffered a small earthquake just as the UFO
>>was flying by. Yeah, that must be it! That would explain why the
>>buildings move and the UFO doesn't.

>Of course, if the camera operator had a firm enough grip, being
>that the 'saucer' was the only object unaffected by the quake it
>might be the only thing appearing to move in the image.

>(That'll be two cents.)

>Rob

Dennis and Rob,

If there was a quake, then not only did the landscape and
buildings move, but evidently the camera operator himself !!!

This time, it's free.

Serge







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                                What's That?

From: Gerry Lovell <ed@farshore.force9.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 00:43:12 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 09:43:28 -0400
Subject: What's That?


Source: The Evansville Courier [Indiana]
Date: Sept 4  1998
Header: What's that?

Group Of Illinois Men Sees Strange Lights In Sky
Byline: Len Wells

FAIRFIELD, Ill. -- A group of Wayne County men, including a
former Fairfield mayor and a police officer, say they saw some
strange lights in the area Wednesday night.

The men, who were attending a private gathering in the Pond
Creek bottoms near Fairfield, said a sequence of bright white
lights, then thunder, then orange lights repeated about every
five or 10 minutes for almost an hour.

"They started showing up around 9:30 - bright white lights
dancing around in the sky," said Fairfield police officer Braden
Willis. "When the white light disappeared, we all heard what
sounded like distant thunder rolling toward us."

Harold Tubbs, former Fairfield mayor, his son, Richie, and
several Fairfield Municipal workers also told the Wayne County
Sheriff's Department they saw the lights.

One possible explanation is that the 181st Fighter Group out of
Terre Haute, Ind., often flies in that area, said Jeff Light, an
Evansville Regional Airport air traffic control spokesman.

Light added that fighters often undergo refueling operations
with C-130 tankers in that area, which could account for the
number of lights and their intensity.

However, normally such operations are carried out at high
altitude and would not be visible to the casual observer, Light
said.

A spokesman for the National Weather Service at Paducah, Ky.,
said there was no unusual weather phenomenon in the area
Wednesday night.

-- end --

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 > > >  Gerry Lovell / Far Shores |http://www.farshore.force9.co.uk
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -







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                      Carolinas A Hot Spot For Saucers

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 05:35:11 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 10:24:02 -0400
Subject: Carolinas A Hot Spot For Saucers


Source: AP via The Augusta Chronicle

http://www.augustachronicle.com/stories/090598/tec_LM5745-9.001.shtml

Links are preceded by asterisks.

Stig

*******

Carolinas a hot spot for saucers

Web posted Sep. 04 at 08:42 PM

Associated Press

MYRTLE BEACH, S.C. -- Startled by the cry of his chickens and
ducks and the neigh of his father's mule, Horry County resident
Lloyd Booth grabbed his .22-caliber pistol at midnight, Jan. 29,
1953, and went outside to investigate.

Mr. Booth spotted a gray saucer hovering 10-feet over a row of
pine trees, emitting a low hum and moving slowly across his
property.

Scared for his life, Mr. Booth fired five shots, each
ricocheting off the metallic surface. Unharmed, the saucer
disappeared.

This is a well-documented case that grabbed headlines and can be
found on most UFO Web sites. UFO investigator George Fawcett,
who has been researching sightings for 54 years, still gets
excited about the case.

Of the 1,200 cases Mr. Fawcett has explored -- including 200 in
South Carolina -- it's the only one that involved a shooting.

Mr. Fawcett said the Navy claimed it was a blimp.

"Booth knew better than that," he said. "He was an ex-military
man."

Mr. Fawcett recently donated his life's work -- more than 40,000
books, articles, journals, documents and photographs -- to the
International UFO Museum and Research Center in Roswell, N.M.

He is keeping 600 items for a book he is writing about UFO
encounters in the Carolinas. In a time when people are eager to
gobble up as much UFO information as possible, Mr. Fawcett
thinks it will do well.

He calls the Carolinas a hotbed of UFO activity. North Carolina
ranks fourth in the number of sightings, and South Carolina
ranks 14th.

There are several reasons. For one, the Carolinas have so many
UFO investigators -- 161 at last count, Mr. Fawcett said.

Also, large bodies of water, military bases and power plants are
key areas for sightings, he said.

"(UFOs) may need water for their cooling systems and for
samples, and they could possibly be surveying our military
installations for our response technology potential," he said.

The large amount of UFO activity in South Carolina prompted Jody
Pendarvis of Bowman to build a UFO Welcome Center. The
42-foot-wide wood creation was built to model a saucer and has
flashing lights.

"Sometimes when planes fly overhead I flash in Morse code, `UFO
Welcome Center," he said. "When I first started doing it, planes
would circle the area trying to figure out what was going on."

Mr. Pendarvis has never had a sighting and takes a light
approach to UFOs, calling himself a fun-loving guy. But he said
he is counting on UFOs visiting him one day.

"I want to be an ambassador to the aliens," he said. "When they
arrive, I'll probably ask them how they are doing and then tell
them to leave before F-14s come and blow them away."

Cheryl Gilmore, Mutual UFO Network director for South Carolina,
said the number of area sightings has decreased.

"When they do report, it isn't official," she said. "People
don't want to give their name. People are scared of what might
happen to them."

Ms. Gilmore, who had a sighting at age 14 in Ohio, recalled one
case in which Bill Herrmann of Charleston said he was abducted
four times from 1978 to 1983.

"We haven't heard anything about him in awhile," she said. "I
heard he was kicked out of his church and someone tried to burn
his house down."

Police in Andrews reported two cases in July 1994. A person who
identified himself as a University of Georgia student reported
seeing a UFO hovering over Litchfield Beach. Another witness
claimed to see two at about the same time.

Myrtle Beach Air Traffic Control said it may have been a large
formation of C-41 cargo planes flying in the area.

A lot of the sightings can be explained, Mr. Fawcett said.

"I have found 78 percent of sightings to have a perfectly
logical explanation, but the other 22 percent do not have an
explanation," he said.


(Image text: Jody Pendarvis, proud creator of the "UFO Welcome
Center" stands in the front yard of his Bowman, S.C. home
Friday, Dec. 12, 1997, where his giant silver spaceship entices
visitors to inspect the welcome center. AP Photo/The Post and
Courier)


All Contents *=A9Copyright The Augusta Chronicle

Comments or questions? Contact the *webmasters.






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                       Update On Vandehoof, BC Circles

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 01:59:42 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 10:32:24 -0400
Subject: Update On Vandehoof, BC Circles


Four New Saskatchewan Reports,
Update on Cando #1      September 5, 1998


Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Update
September 5, 1998



Update On Vanderhoof, BC Circles
-
New Circles At Cando, Saskatchewan
(CANDO #2)
-
Three New Reports From Midale,
Saskatchewan (#1, #2, #3)
-
Update On CANDO #1

___________


Update On Vanderhoof, BC Circles

The Vanderhoof circles have attracted much media attention, as
well as visitors to the site. There are 11  circles (not 10 as
first reported), in three groups, in one oat field covering a
total area of approximately 450 by 200 feet, ranging in size
from about 10 feet to 100 feet diametre. Most circles are very
close together, almost touching. All circles are beautifully
spiralled, with no broken plants, no footprints or other tracks
seen and no disturbance to the soil beneath the flattened
plants. This is definitely a first for this province! Circles
have been sampled for Levengood / BLT. Further photos, video
available soon. Also an increase in UFO sightings in area in
past few days. Dogs in area reported barking all night, the
night of creation (August 27 / 28).


New Circles At Cando, Saskatchewan (CANDO#2)

Two more circles were reported on September 2. Found around
September 1, while combining. They are approximately 100 - 150
feet from the first "4:20" formation (Cando #1). They may have
been made the same time. Further details when available.


Three New Reports From Midale, Saskatchewan

Report, plus scan of newsclipping were received this morning
(September 4) by CPR-Canada of three more formations, in the
Midale area of southern Saskatchewan, near Estevan.

Midale #1 - single circle, found August 17, 15 ' diameter.

Midale #2 - three circles, found August 24, in separate field
west of #1

Midale #3 - three circles, found late August, each is 22'
diameter.

Like others reported, all these circles were perfectly
flattened, no breakage, no tracks and no disturbance to soil
beneath flattened stalks. More info ASAP.


Update On Cando #1

The "4:20" formation contains intricate "layering and weaving"
of the plant stalks, going in different directions. Also contains
blown nodes, according to ground investigation. Strange bright
glowing light above the field was also later seen by farmer's son.
Aerial and ground photos also will be available soon.

_________


CPR-Canada Web:
www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310

1998 Updates:
www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1998

_________


For further information or correspondence, contact



Paul Anderson

Director
CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA
Affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International
Web:  www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310

Director
MILLENNIUM RESEARCH INSTITUTE
Web:  mypage.direct.ca/p/psa/ (being revised)

Representative
BLT RESEARCH, INC.

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue, Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4
Tel / Fax:  604.731.8522
E-Mail:  psa@direct.ca









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               SETI Scientists Plan To Double-Team Search This

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:38:42 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 10:40:50 -0400
Subject: SETI Scientists Plan To Double-Team Search This

Source: MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.com:80/news/193176.asp

Stig

*******

SETI scientists plan
to double-team E.T.

By Alan Boyle

MSNBCSept. 5 --The quest for alien contact goes into overdrive
this month, with two groups of researchers planning to use the
world's biggest radio telescope simultaneously. Although this is
the most ambitious campaign yet, both groups stress that we're
still just in the early stages of the search for
extraterrestrial intelligence.

THE TWO GROUPS - Project Phoenix and Project Serendip - use
different strategies to search for radio signals from other star
systems. And although both will be using the 1,000-foot-wide
Arecibo radio telescope in Puerto Rico, they will have separate
systems to gather and process data.

The idea is familiar to anyone who has seen the movie "Contact"
or read the Carl Sagan book on which the film was based: Some
scientists theorize that if there are other intelligent
civilizations out in space, they would eventually discover radio
technology as a means of communication. Under this scenario,
regular radio signals would leak out into space - or even be
sent intentionally into the cosmos. Those signals could be
picked up by sufficiently sensitive receivers on Earth. It would
be just a case of looking at the right place at the right time.

Scientists have been conducting the search for extraterrestrial
intelligence, or SETI, for almost four decades, and at one time
the U.S. government funded SETI research. But congressional
opposition eventually ended that federal funding, meaning that
the bulk of the SETI effort is funded by private donors such as
software billionaire Paul Allen and foundations such as the
Planetary Society.

Project Phoenix, run by the SETI Institute, targets more than
1,000 nearby sunlike stars. It recently moved its equipment to
Arecibo from the National Radio Astronomy Observatory's complex
in West Virginia and is due to begin its new campaign around
Sept. 10.

Project Serendip, based at the University of California,
Berkeley, does a quicker search of far more targets in a wide
swath of the Arecibo sky. For more than a year it's been using
"piggyback" equipment that can operate even while Phoenix is
conducting its own search.

"They're both very powerful searches, and they go after
different strategies, and we don't know what the right strategy
is," said Dan Werthimer, Serendip's principal investigator. "I
think the right strategy is to use both strategies."

Serendip is readjusting its equipment to search 168 million
separate radio channels around 1420 MHz, the frequency at which
hydrogen radiates. That point on the spectrum is also known as
the 21cm wavelength, part of what SETI researchers call the
cosmic "waterhole."

"It's the wavelength that people think is the preferred band for
interstellar communication," Werthimer said. "We don't really
know what the right band is, but if I had to make a guess and
could search only one frequency, that would be my first choice."

Project Phoenix, meanwhile, plans to monitor each of its target
stars in 2 billion separate radio channels, 28 million channels
at a time. Although there are 595 stars on the target list for
Arecibo, the SETI Institute's Seth Shostak says there's no way
researchers will get through the whole list during the upcoming
two- to three-week observing session.

"If you only spent a couple of minutes at each frequency, it
still takes half a day to observe all the channels for one
star," Shostak said. "If we get through 50 of these stars,
that'll be a good start."

The name of the game in the SETI business is channels. It's hard
to pick up the faint chords of "Close Encounters of the Third
Kind" or even a steady tone if you're also picking up the static
from surrounding wavelengths. But if you can adjust the
fine-tuning dial to pick up a narrow sliver of the
electromagnetic spectrum, it's easier to find the signal in the
noise.

So SETI researchers may find themselves monitoring the same
regions of the sky they've monitored before, only with
increasingly sensitive tools. Arecibo, for example, is at least
30 times as sensitive as the largest telescope used by Project
Phoenix in West Virginia. And Serendip's current analyzing
equipment has 42 times as many channels as the equipment it
replaced.

Neither Shostak nor Werthimer expect to happen upon E.T.
overnight. Under the current plan, Project Phoenix will get two
or three weeks' worth of Arecibo observing time every fall and
spring for the next few years. And Werthimer says SETI experts
are already discussing new strategies for research through the
year 2020 - perhaps using observing systems that will link
together scores of radio telescopes the size of hot tubs.

"There's still a lot of spectrum to be explored," Werthimer
says, "and Earthlings are just beginning to get into this game."

For more information about developments in space, click on the
links below. Send your comments to Space News Editor Alan Boyle
at alan.boyle@msnbc.com.





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             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 07:43:02 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 10:50:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

>Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 21:32:47 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

<snip>

>Has anyone scanned the fields where these crop circles are
>formed for some type of electronic device in the ground?

Researchers have used various types of equipment, and often do
note magnetic, electronic, and sometimes accoustical anomalies
within the formations. On many occasion this equipment fails to
work within the formation, and the researchers are unable to
obtain readings. No devices or sensors have ever been
discovered. Bear in mind one detail that distinguishes the
authentic formations from the hoaxes; the lack of _any_ physical
contact with the plants, or the soil that supports them. If
someone had planted any sort of sensor or device, it should be
evident that the ground had been tampered with, unless it was
planted some time after the last tilling but before plant
maturity.

And we are still left with the problem of generating sufficient
energy to produce the effects to the crops.


Greg






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                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 09:34:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 11:10:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage


>Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 17:56:51 -0500
>From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

<snip>

>The film should be processed under rigorously controlled
>conditions (if it has not already been processed commercially).
>If the camera is available but empty, the same operations should
>be conducted wit a film of the same type as the original.

What film? I've seen no comments to indicate that this was a
"film", but was video taped with a hand-held Camcorder.

Of course, I could have been out sick the day it was announced.

Steve






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 08:45:31 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 10:54:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:16:18 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis  Staqcy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 19:53:49 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

<snip>

>>Now why in the world would they need to keep Brazel locked up
>>for a week if it was nothing but a Mogul balloon crash?

>Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but it's always been my
>impression that Mogul itself was a secret project at the time.
>Secret is secret. You might as well assert that
>Japanese-Americans on the west coast were locked up because UFOs
>were reported over Los Angeles in 1941, although it seems more
>likely that it was an aftermath of Pearl Harbor. That assumes
>that all statements about Marcel's incarceration are not just
>documented, but actually reflect reality.

Kal Korff and others have been harping to me about the fact that
even though the purpose of Mogul was secret, the actual
components used in the project were not. Ranchers found them,
brought them in, collected their money, and went home. No big
deal.

Are we to assume that Brazel (not Marcel) was treated
differently because he somehow knew the purpose of Mogul? That
doesn't make any sense to me. I think Brazel was treated the way
he was, and perhaps later rewarded, because he had found
something unlike anything found before.

I don't think Brazel found balloon debris.

Bob








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                    Re: TNT UFO Special on September 13th

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 08:49:59 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 11:09:14 -0400
Subject: Re: TNT UFO Special on September 13th

>Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 17:22:18 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: TNT UFO Special on September 13th

>"Filer's Files" included reference to the upcoming UFO Special
>on Turner Network Television, which premieres on September 13th.
>A few details can be found at the TNT web site (ignore the cute
>intro):

>http://tnt.turner.com/kgb/

>==TNT Text==
>For the first time ever, viewers learn what many consider to be
>the terrifying truth about the Soviet Union's encounters with
>extraterrestrial intelligence and UFOs in Russia, Romania, China
>and the Eastern Bloc. Roger Moore hosts this extraordinary
>special featuring never-before-seen footage of what is believed
>to be actual crash sites and alien autopsies, first-hand
>accounts with former agents of the KGB of UFO incidents,
>powerful re-creations of alien encounters and first-time
>interviews with the experts who have seen the documentation and
>know the truth. THE SECRET KGB UFO FILES paints a disturbing
>picture of the KGB's hidden campaign and discloses startling
>revelations that will forever change the way the world thinks
>about this phenomenon. Rating: TV-PG ==end text==

>This page is actually well done, and provides a few images to
>tease those who are interested, including a (cute) Quicktime
>video clip.  This looks like a good show with Richard Haines and
>Stanton Friedman (among others).


Hi all,

I'm interested in this special, but will be out of the country
on assignment when it airs.

Is anyone on this list willing to tape it for me?

I'll reimburse cost of tape or send you a blank tape.

Reply directly to    bob@bobshell.com

Thanks.

Bob








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                            Re: E.T., E-Mail Home

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 05:49:59 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 11:07:34 -0400
Subject: Re: E.T., E-Mail Home


>From: Michel M. Deschamps <739411@ican.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: E.T., E-Mail Home
>Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 01:16:12 -0400

Dear Michel Deschamps:

I both agree and disagree with your statements below. Please see
my 14 centimes worth, inserted as comments.....

>>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 20:11:05 +0200
>>Source: Intellectual Capital

>>http://www.intellectualcapital.com/issues/98/0903/icsmart.asp

>>E.T., E-mail Home by Elias Crim

>>September 3, 1998

<snip>

>.. be sure to add your opinion.

<snip>

>>.. . There will
>>soon be thousands of us out here, all downloading pieces of sky
>>from giant radio telescopes and then crunching our little data
>>files to see if we can hear some galactic talk radio or
>>something."

><snip>

>I felt it was time for me to put my foot down when it comes to
>SETI and its "search" for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. I have
>seen and heard these astronomers so many times on TV
>documentaries, explaining what their work consist of, how
>important it is, and justifying it by showing off all the neat
>instruments they get to use. What arrogance!

>Personally, I think SETI's all a waste of time, money, and
>energy.

I strongly disagree. Even some SETI people disdainthe UFO types,
the fact remains that they are out there looking! They have
something most of us do not .. the physical and mathematical
tools to document their findings, should there be any.

>Some of those astronomers have even said themselves that
>they "believed" extraterrestrial intelligences to be more
>advanced than we are. And yet, they expect us to believe that
>the ETs are (or would be) using radio signals to communicate
>with us? What kind of logical assessment is that?

Here I must sadly agree.

A race of ETs even a thousand years in advance of us will know
so much more physics than we do, that radio signals may seem to
them, like jungle drums do to an Englishman.

We humans seem to discover new particles all the time. Every
particle shares a dual nature with a wave, in ways that are
hard, if not impossible to explain to the general public.

_Any_ particle/wave entity can be made to transmit information.
Do some of you old-timers remember the "Infra-Phone"? This was a
pistol-like device which used heat waves for two-way
walkie-talkie communication. _But_ .. both parties had to aim
the damned things at one another just right, so there was no way
to introduce beer commercials, and it flopped.

Long before we knew what electricity was, (a current of
yet-undiscovered "electrons") experimentors were making all
sorts of findings .. and parlor tricks!

What was the first practical use of electricity? Light? Heat?
Labor-saving electrical motors? Absolutely not. It was the
copper-wire land-line Telegraph.

Try to imagine a society sufficiently advanced to discover,
detect, create and modulate "gravitons".

Before they can use them for propulsion, what do you think they
might do?

There's all sorts of other particles yet to be tamed and named.
Some have names, but are still to be
experimentally detected with any credibility!

>If ETs are thousands of years (or more) ahead of us (based on
>the fact that they've had a head start on us by a billion years
>or so...

Oh a million years is sufficient, perhaps some small fraction of
a million years..[massive ship]

>Physical landing traces left behind by landed objects of unknown
>origin have been documented for the past fifty years or more.
>The proof in NOT out there; it's down here.

Proof? I see some darn good evidence, but I would not takethe ET
case into the courtroom yet.

I believe the SETI people are making what they believe is the
best fact-finding survey of the skies that they can.

They cannot be blamed for not using technology which they do not
possess.

Maybe they remind some of us of the jungle native, with his
hands cupped over his ears, listening for drumbeats, just
underneath a radio transmitter.

Maybe some technician (seeing this) will come out of the
radio-room and whisper " Hey native! Listen to my record player!
"

If SETI ever _does_ get some undeniably artificial signal, we can
perform statistical tests on it, which should be sufficient to
convince all but the most religiously hard-headed critics.

All the second hand UFO sightings on record have failed to do
that; in spite of the quality and quantity of observers who have
bravely come forward with their incredible accounts.

I would like to see what the Psycho Social people do with an
expansion of pi to 433 decimal places .. _provided_ it can be
proven to have an ET source.


Best Wishes

- Larry Hatch






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 5

                     Triangular UFOs Also In Dutch Skies

From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 18:53:53 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 18:08:36 -0400
Subject: Triangular UFOs Also In Dutch Skies

Not only France and Belgium were visited by large triangular
craft early this August. Also in the Netherlands there were
reports of these objects. On August the 1st residents of
Enschede(ca 200 Km east of Amsterdam) saw a large, dark triangle
above the house, after watching the object flying slow in a
straight line for about 30 minutes, it suddenly changed it's
course and shot of in the direction of the German border. On the
12th of August, other witnesses in Enschede witnessed a
triangular with a bright, white light on each corner, the
witnesses reported seeing the object three times that night.
We're trying to get more info on these cases and as soon as we
know more, I'll let you know. Ofcourse you will also find it on
A.U.R.A.s website, where we also put up some stills of the
video, showing the "French" triangle. Visit us at:

http://members.tripod.com/~A_U_R_A


With Kind regards,

Andy Denne
A.U.R.A.
The Netherlands
aura@telekabel2.nl






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 5

                    Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 11:45:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 17:50:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?

>Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 18:44:11 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?

<snip>

>Hi Steve.

>I did not mean to imply that they were using "beam" capabilities
>to read "newspapers." They simply use highly sophisticated
>camera's. I did not make this up. I have a printed article
>somewhere in my data base, hard copy, directly from a newspaper
>back in the middle to late 60's, which made that statement.

>I just wish, for my sake, <G> that I could find it. Then, people
>would have to argue with the newspaper which published it,
>rather than me. <G>

>Take care.

>REgards, Mike

I'd like to see how the newspaper phrased it, but I believe
there are factors beyond the scope of optics that would prevent
the ability to read newsprint from orbit.  Although, I'm also
sure that the capabilities of surveilance cameras used in space
are far more sophisticated than have been acknowledged.

Given the time period you indicate, this could well have been a
bit of misinformation that was targetted at the Soviet Bloc to
convince them that our capabilities were far in advance of their
own.

Steve







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   Sep > Sep 5

                         North Carolina UFO Hot Spot

From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@foto.infi.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 12:58:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 18:04:53 -0400
Subject: North Carolina UFO Hot Spot


During the earlier months of this year, I began receiving
numerous reports of UFOs, triangles and orbs in the High Rock
Lake area, est. 20 miles north of Charlotte, N.C.

We received reports of triangle shapes seen - one that has been
described as at least 5 football fields wide. I recorded one on
video on April 29th doing a slow roll over at about an est. 20
miles an hour.

The week that I moved from the High Rock Lake area about two
months ago, I was receiving reports of Orbs hovering on the
highway and following cars to the passenger's home. A deputy
discovered a huge orb hovering by her house.

Last weekend, I went to Lake Waccamaw and audio taped a woman
saying she was visited by a "little man" and also described her
and many of her neighbors seeing a reoccurring UFO. Several of
the neighbors believe they may have been abducted.

Since I live in North Carolina, I am trying to gather all the
information of the sightings that I can. In two weeks, I will be
going back to Lake Waccamaw to interview members of the
community.

These stories are written in more detail of AUFON. The Lake
Waccamaw sightings will be in the upcoming issue of AUFON.

Oh, two weeks ago, a woman was interviewed on a local
Fayetteville, N.C. TV news station about being abducted in
Cumberland County, N.C.


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Stefan Duncan
Director of XPI
Editor of AUFON
5396 Sumac Circle
Fayetteville, N.C. 28304
swduncan@foto.infi.net
http://www.aufon.com
ICQ 11878618
(910-425-2976)








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   Sep > Sep 5

               Australian UFO Reports & Experiences - Sept '98

From: Robert Frola <ufologist@powerup.com.au>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 02:08:04 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 18:01:10 -0400
Subject: Australian UFO Reports & Experiences - Sept '98

Attached is the latest REports Listing. Thanks goes to all who
sent in information. As usual, the attachments are in Word 7
Doc, text, and rich text format.

Enjoy.


Australian Ufo Reports And Experiences 1998 Issue Seven September

Compiled by Robert Frola UFO Investigation Centre Queensland PO
Box 805 Springwood QLD 4127



_______________________________________________________________


SPECIAL UPDATE: North West Cape, Western Australia 23.10.73
Revisited

Clifford M Dubery


Here is an example of a UFO sighting and two interpretations of
the event, worth considering.

The following report was among RAAF UFO sighting files first
examined by Bill Chalker in 1975. Two US servicemen stationed
at the US Navy's Communications Station at North West Cape
independently observed a mysterious object. The base
incorporates a NSA facility within the Naval Security Group.
Area 'B' within the base contains a high-frequency transmitter.

At about 7.15pm, Lt. Commander M[censored], USN, was driving
south from the Communications Station to nearby Exmouth when he
saw a 'large black airborne object' in the west at a distance
of about 5 miles (8kin). He watched it hover, at an estimated
altitude of 200Oft (60Ore), for about 20-25seconds. It then
flew off to the north, 'accelerating beyond belief'. Lt. Cdr. M
said he had 'never experienced anything like it.' The UFO made
no noise and Left no exhaust or contrail.

At much the same time, Fire Captain (USN) Bill L[censored] was
on the base itself when he was called to close the officer's
club. In his own words: 'I proceeded towards the Club in the
Fire Department pick-up 488, when my attention was drawn to a
large black object, which at first ] took to be a small cloud
formation, due west of Area "B". Whilst travelling towards the
Officers' Club I couldn't help but be attracted by this
object's appearance.

'On alighting from pick-up 488, I stood for several minutes and
watched this black sphere hovering. The skies were clear and
pale green-blue. No clouds were about whatsoever. The object
was completely stationary except for a halo round the center,
which appeared to be either revolving or pulsating. After I had
stood watching it for approx. 4 minutes, it suddenly took off
at tremendous speed and disappeared in a northerly direction,
in a few seconds.

'I consider this object to have been approx. 10 metres [3Oft]
in diameter, hovering at 300 metres [985ft] over the hills [Mt
Athol] due west of the base. It was black, maybe due to my
looking in the direction of the setting sun. No tights appeared
on it at any time.

Australia and the NSA

In 1973, Australia hosted a quite different multiply witnessed
UFO event (see Case #27). Bill Chalker, who discovered the
sighting report, put an intriguing spin on the mysterious black
object, seen by two American witnesses a considerable distance
apart, that hovered near the US Navy's top-security
Communications Station at North West Cape, Western Australia.
Chalker saw the event in the context of the Yom Kippur war.
Hostilities began on 6th October 1973 with a simultaneous
attack by Egypt, Jordan and Syria on Israel, whose general
staff had misread the military situation and were caught
unprepared. On all fronts a desperate fighting withdrawal began
as Israel's citizen army frantically mobilized; the
battlefields saw scenes of unbelievable heroism, especially in
the hard-won tank battles on the Golan Heights. Then, on 11th
October, North West Cape and the other US bases in Australia
went to a high alert.

The reason for this (not elucidated by Chalker) was that,
having begun a successful counter-attack against Egyptian
forces on 8 October, the Israelis launched another against
Syria at 11.00am local time on 11th October. Within six hours
they had knocked the Syrian forces back by 10 miles (15km), and
in places twice that. Looming behind the contestants were the
Soviet Union, standing by the Arab nations, and the USA,
backing Israel. The Americans believed that the Soviet Union
might support its clients directly if Israel decisively turned
the tide of the war. Israel did so, but intense diplomacy
averted escalation and a UN resolution called for a cease-fire
at 6.52pm on 22nd October. The combatants accepted the
deadline, but bitter fighting continued on the southern
Egyptian front until late on 24 October.

At this point, as Chalker notes, the NSA's misreading of a
signal from Syria to the USSR in turn misled the US government
into thinking the Soviets were preparing airborne divisions to
move into the Middle East. On 25th October came the reaction.
The North West Cape station signaled US forces in the region,
putting them on nuclear alert - without telling the Australian
government. And on the same day a mysterious black UFO visited
the NSA/US Navy station at North West Cape.

Chalker wonders if this UFO event is the one glimpsed at
paragraph 9 of NSA's top-secret affidavit of 1980 to the US
Federal court, which discusses NSA SIGINT (signals
intelligence). Chalker does not pretend to know if the strange
black object was a remote-controlled drone of either a friendly
or hostile power, or a bona-fide UFO. But he does conclude that
the case shows that UFO sightings may harbour implications for
national security. Chalker is undoubtedly correct, if the
object was indeed a piece of airborne hardware. But the fact
that the witnesses may both have been in possession of a
terrible secret that, for all they knew, was the first step
toward Armageddon, may also be the key to their experiences.
Several ufologists have observed how UFO sightings increase in
times of national (which is also personal) stress, shock, or
unease about the future. American UFO flaps, in the days when
they used to happen, bloomed regularly in the late summer of
presidential election years. The flap of 1973 (in which this
sighting may reasonably be counted) began amid far greater
uncertainty, with the first congressional hearings on
Watergate, chaos in the Nixon administration, and tile
scandal-ridden resignation of Vice-president Spiro Agnew. It
peaked against the background of the Yom Kippur war and the
ensuing crisis in which oil prices tripled overnight.

While it seems altogether likely that a physical object of some
kind triggered the sighting, this UFO is strikingly symbolic.
Like a mocking negation of the antipodean sun, black and
foreboding, it hangs in the west, the traditional direction of
death, and disappears into the war-torn wasteland of the north.
A psychosocial interpretation of this case at least deserves
some consideration. (Source: UFO and Government Files, Peter
Brookesmith, Blandford London 1996 p134-136 Case #27 The UFO
and the Nuclear Alert NORTH WEST CAPE, WESTERN AUSTRALIA
25.10.73. Credit: Clifford M Dubery e-mail:
duberycm@ocean.com.au - Sunday, 2nd August 1998. Diane Harrison
e-mail tkbnetw@fan.net.au M.O.R.E. Network (Mike Farrell), and
SkyWatch International)
_______________________________________________________________
_



REPORTS:

17.06.98 Behanna Creek, nr Gordonvale, QLD 0105hrs (NL/CE1)
(Source: Russell Boundy e-mail: uforb@internetnorth.com.au
UFOR(FNQ) Ref: QB98031) The two females witnesses were
travelling south on the Bruce Hwy from Cairns to Babinda, they
noticed a bright light in the sky when they were north of
Gordonvale and did not take much notice of it. At Behanna Creek
the object was now seen to the left side of the road above the
tree top level, although the night was dark the witnesses
believe the object was about 300m distant and 16cm at arms
length. It was a round shape with rays of light coming off it.
The driver of the vehicle sped up and the object paced the car
at keeping the same distance. The driver stopped the car at
road works traffic light at Mt Sophia, the object stopped
similarly at the same distance. The witnesses traveled to the
next road works traffic light north of Deeral where they
stopped again. The object stopped at similar distance again.
The sky according to the witnesses "went strange", the object
dropped down and now appeared as an orange/red crescent shape
about 60cm at arms length. Its light levels increased as white
light lit up the surrounding area as if daylight. The driver
"floored it" as the traffic light indicated green. The object
moved away becoming a small white light and continued to follow
the car at a distance. The witnesses stopped their car 6
minutes later at the DPI inspection station north of Babinda.
The object went downwards and out of sight. The witnesses then
drove home without further incident. At no time did the
witnesses hear any sound emanating from the object.

Additional Information: No air traffic movements were recorded
in the area at the time. The witnesses noticed no other cars on
the highway when the object was close. Staff at the DPI station
apparently did not see the object. The witnesses believe they
saw the object again on the 24.06.98 at similar time but only
as a bright point source light. There were four people in the
car this occasion. It did not follow them. It remained
stationary in the sky. (It seems likely that this sighting was
of an astronomical object although no definite conclusion could
be reached). Duration of sighting: 16 minutes, probably more.
(UFOR(FNQ) - Investigator: Holly Goriss)

01.07.98 nr Edmonton, QLD (NL) 0115hrs (Source: Russell Boundy
e-mail: uforb@internetnorth.com.au UFOR(FNQ) Ref: QB98032) Two
female witnesses travelling from Cairns to Babinda area
observed a very bright light just south of Cairns. The object
was larger and brighter than any stars and was described as
pulsating in brightness. The witnesses say the object followed
their car south until they reached the DPI Inspection roadblock
station north of Babinda. The witnesses stopped here and got
out of their car and alerted DPI staff to the object's
presence. The DPI staffs (three persons) are adamant that the
object was not a star. The two witnesses in the car drove to
Babinda. When they arrived home the object was approximately 75
degrees elevation and appeared to be coming closer. One witness
woke her son and they observed the object a further 30 minutes
until it moved away to the north. The three witnesses at the
DPI station observed the object moving slowly north and south
several times that morning until approximately 0630hrs.

Additional Information: No air traffic movements were recorded
in the area at the time. At times the description of this
object appears characteristic of the movement of an
astronomical body. The planet Venus does not seem to be in the
correct position to account for the sighting. It was not above
the horizon for the earlier part of the event.

Conclusion: It would seem possible that some sightings of the
object were in fact sightings of the planet Venus, in
particular those described by the one or two of the DPI staff
of the stationary object. They often observed the object at
intervals. Duration of sighting: from 30 minutes to up to three
hours. (UFOR(FNQ) - Investigator: Holly Goriss)

02.07.98 nr Bramston Beach, QLD 2345hrs (NL) (Source: Russell
Boundy e-mail: uforb@internetnorth.com.au UFOR(FNQ) Ref:
QB98033) At about2345hrs EST the male witness was driving his
vehicle eastwards along Bramston Beach Road at the Ellis River
crossing. He observed a round bright white object low and
stationary in the sky and ahead of him. The witness almost
stopped and turned around being worried as to what the object
was. He decided though to drive on towards Bramston Beach. The
object was ahead on his right. It commenced pacing his vehicle
at distance and went behind the low mountains. The witness
drove on through the range and on coming out the side saw the
object now behind him on the right. Light emanating from the
object lit up the surrounding area. He turned his vehicle
around to look at the object, then he got out of his vehicle
and stood looking at the object. At this point the object began
moving away from the witness in a westerly direction. It moved
downward and behind a hill.

The witness described the round shaped object as clearly
defined edges of white light, two protuberances like "goatees"
( cone or triangular shaped) attached at the bottom of the
circle of the same colour. He described the objects size at its
closest as that of a tennis ball at arms length.

Additional Information: No air traffic movements were recorded
in the area at the time, although in the nights following RAAF
aircraft were operating in the area on exercise only until
1930-2000hrs. This seems to have been a previously planned
exercise with the Army and Airforce, not a reaction to the
presence of the object the night before. No sound was heard
from the object even at its closest point to the witness.
Duration of the sighting: 10 minutes. (UFOR(FNQ) -
Investigator: Russell Boundy)

27.07.98 Townsville, QLD (NL) (Source: Mike Farrell, e-mail:
mikefarr@midcoast.com.au & Diane Harrison, e-mail:
tkbnetw@fan.net.au. The Keith Basterfield Network 10.08.98)
Luminous orange UFOs appeared on two nights last week in
Townsville, Queensland state, Australia, and were seen by
dozens of people. "The sudden appearance of seven unidentified
flying objects over Townsville last night (28th July 1998) and
Monday night (27th July 1998) have left officials baffled."

"Several officials were spooked when seven orange- reddish
lights were reported gliding over Annandale, Garbutt and
Kirwan. Senior air traffic controller Squadron Leader Trevor
Beams (Royal Australian Air Force, RAAF) said police, Army and
RAAF were unable to explain it. 'I have no idea what it was,'
he said."

"Three air traffic tower duty-officers saw three lights at
6:45pm and four lights at 7:45pm on Monday. Squadron Leader
Beams said the lights were moving slowly the sky at 800 to
1,000 meters (altitude) due east. Bicycle store owner Sam
Bratton said he saw four large orange lights move northwest
over Kirwan at 7:45 (pm) on Monday. 'I saw them and called out
to the people in the pizza shop (next door) to come and have a
look,' he said. 'This was weird. I have never seen anything
like this before in my life, and I am 75 years old. It was
quite scary. I was not drinking, and I have seen some strange
things in my life, but this would have to be the strangest.'"

"Cranbrook resident Peter Fox reported seeing five or six
orange lights at 8:50 to 9 p.m. last night (28th July) before
they disappeared in the direction of Mount Stuart. 'I thought
at first they might be helicopters, but there was no sound and
they weren't blinking,' Mr. Fox said."

"The Queensland Fire and Rescue Authority was called at 8:53pm
by an off-duty officer, also in Cranbrook (Ainsley Pavey,
Townsville Bulletin, 29.07.98)

07.08.98 Meringa, nr Edmonton, QLD 1925hrs (NL/Shape) (Source:
Russell Boundy e-mail: uforb@internetnorth.com.au UFOR(FNQ)
Ref: QB98035) The female witness was travelling along the Bruce
Hwy in her van, just north of Meringa. She observed a very
bright white triangular shaped light high in the sky. The
object was travelling on a north trajectory at a speed
described as faster than a jet aircraft. The object was
obscured from the witness's view by some high trees ahead of
the witness on the north side of the highway. The witness
described the object as the shape of a long skinny triangle of
bright white light, the edges of the shape were clearly defined
and sharp. The apex of the triangle was the leading point. The
witness described the size of the object as similar to that of
a B-747 aircraft when they fly over the area, or a little
smaller than the size of the moon.

Additional Information: Checks with the Cairns Airport Traffic
Control revealed no air traffic movements travelling north at
the time of the sighting. The record logbook in the control
centre had no abnormal sightings logged for the time. The
object described does not appear to be a conventional aircraft
as normal lighting configuration was not evident. The object's
description is not characteristic of meteorite or space junk
entry/burns. Duration of sighting: 4 seconds. (UFOR(FNQ) -
Investigator: Russell Boundy)

10.08.98 Eagle Heights, QLD (Mt Tamborine) 2130hrs (NL)
(Source: Diane Harrison, e-mail: tkbnetw@fan.net.au. The Keith
Basterfield Network 12.08.98) Ms K Wickson spotted a bright
object in the sky the size of a ten cent piece she called her
mother Mrs. S Wickson of Eagle Heights Mt Tamborine to have a
look. The family then witnessed the bright light zig zagging
across the sky for around 20 minutes, Location between Logan
Village & Beaudesert (UFOICQ) . 10.08.98 Brisbane, QLD (Logan
Reserve) 2150hrs (NL) (Source: Diane Harrison, e-mail:
tkbnetw@fan.net.au. The Keith Basterfield Network 12.08.98) A
lady travelling home from TAFE along the Logan Reserve Road,
said the object appeared quite large but it seemed to be moving
slowly away from her. It seems that this witness was looking at
the same object observed by an Eagle Heights woman ten minutes
prior. There was a bright light flashing underneath the object.
She said she watched it and it moved toward the Beaudesert
area, then it stopped and moved backwards before it
disappeared. (UFOICQ)

11.08.98 Northern Australia bet 1930-2200hrs (Identified)
(Source: Diane Harrison, e-mail: tkbnetw@fan.net.au. The Keith
Basterfield Network 12.08.98) The manager of a roadhouse south
of Tennant Creek, NT claims mysterious lights in the sky last
night looked like fireworks.

There have been several reports of a bright light travelling
across the sky, from Alice Springs at about 7.30pm dropping
into the Gulf of Carpentaria in Queensland after 10pm. Lou
Farkas, from Wycliffe Well, NT who markets the roadhouse as a
site for UFO sightings, says he heard a 'bang' as well as
seeing the light.

"Imagine the shape of a fighting boomerang, you know how it's
got that bend in it - so the light was formed and it was
probably about two to three inches wide probably in the sky, so
it covered quite a big area. But it formed completely. So it
started then formed the shape of the boomerang then it held
until there was an explosion then it all disappeared."

Additional Information:

Astronomers at the Tidbinbilla tracking station in Canberra say
a bright light that shot across the Northern Territory skies
last night was most likely a meteor. Territory police say there
were sightings from Alice Springs in the south to the Arnhem
coast in the north, with some witnesses claiming night turned
into day. Duncan Osborne from the Deep Space Tracking Station
says the reports are consistent with the effect of a meteorite
entering the earth's atmosphere and burning up.

"Normally if you see an object such as this stop what you're
doing, if you're driving the car pull over, because a lot of
UFO sightings are actually mistaken meteorites," he said. "But
when people are driving they mistake the light itself is moving
and if it travels in a straight direction that's a good
indicator that it's probably a meteorite." (ABC Online News,
Alice Springs 12.08.98)


Angel's Hair Case Quirindi, nr Tamworth NSW

Investigators: Moira McGhee, Bill Chalker, Bryan Dickeson,
Diane Harrison, Robert Frola UFO Group: INUFOR, UFOIC,
UFOR(NSW), UFOICQ Date of Experience: 10.08.98 Report written
by: various

Original Story:

Mrs. E Stansfield 61 years said that she saw cobwebs falling
from sky she saw 20 silver balls "....when some of them
maneuvered and increased speed this cobweb like substance
started to drop to the ground. Some of it got caught on the
telephone lines".. When she went out to her daughter she too
was covered in a fine film off cobwebs. When she tried to pick
it up it disintegrated in her hand. The family car had cobwebs
all over it John? Scooped it up and put it in a jar it to
disintegrated. Mr. E Stansfield stated that they were flying
higher than local air traffic. (Tamworth's North Daily Leader,
10.08.98)

Investigation to date:

"Ross Dowe" posted this Story to the Australian Associated
Press from the Australian UFO hot line, which in turn faxed it
out to all the newspapers. In which Tamworth's North Daily
leader ran the story. Duty officer stated that without an
extensive search of the duty rosters book or talking to his 70
manned staff, he is currently unaware of any UFO sighting and
has received no phone calls as of Friday 10.00am today
(14.08.98). (Robert Frola, 14.08.98)

The "angel hair" UFO spectacle at Quirindi, New South Wales,
Australia, on 10 August, 1998, has now been the subject of
interviews and investigation. Moira McGhee of INUFOR spoke with
the family on the evening of 11 August and arranged for a
sample of the material, which had been sealed in a yogurt
container with glad wrap and rubber band, to be dispatched to
her. It was packed with a cardboard cover and securely sealed
(we hope!). Moira kindly made the sample available to me on
Saturday 15 August. Bryan Dickeson of UFOR(NSW) also spoke with
the family. I have undertaken discussion with some specialists
working with me and we are attempting to arrange at least gas
chromatography. The determination of detector and column
combinations has to be determined. We may also try to undertake
some micro video imaging if the nature of the sample permits
it. I have discussed the incident at length with 2 of the
witnesses. Mrs. Eunice Stanfield told me that 2 strands of the
material originally about 3 feet long were put into the
container. They were "evaporating" and she indicated that prior
to dispatch the material appeared to have reduced in volume to
about the size of a match had. Because of this we have cooled
the sample. It is currently held in a freezer. This will assist
us to determine if phase changes occur. Because of the severe
sample limitations we may only get one crack at this. I will
advise all concerned of any results. I have refrained from
opening the sample to facilitate needle sampling under control
sampling conditions, if this is determined as a viable option.

Apart from my physical trace interests the following account of
my own experience with apparent "angel hair" will serve to
highlight that I have more than a passing acquaintance with the
subject. Is it spider's web or something more exotic? We will
have to wait and see. (Moira McGhee, Bill Chalker, Bryan
Dickeson, 17.08.98)

Account from Eunice Stansfield, aged 61. (One of at least four
witnesses.)

Seen above southern section of township of Quirindi, NSW (31deg
30 min South, 150deg 41min East) some 61 km (south) from
Tamworth .

Soon after midday - around 1 o'clock(?) Eunice and Noelene were
in the back garden finishing their cups of tea. Noelene lay
down on bench looking straight up into the sky, while Eunice
took the cups back inside. On returning Eunice heard Noelene
say "That's going bloody fast!"

Eunice looked directly upwards where Noeleen was pointing and
saw a silver ball moving quickly across the sky from East to
West (?) over Quirindi.

Then several other objects appeared. They were all a long way
up "higher than the jets they often see going overhead" and
were a bright metallic grey with a size "like tennis balls".
They moved quickly, or stopped (hovered) and started in a very
complex series of movements. They moved up and down and around,
but "never got any lower than the usual height normal planes
travel over [Quirindi] at". The objects made absolutely no
noise.

Her husband, Mario (an ex NATO pilot in the 6-day Middle East
war) estimated they were flying around the 50-60,000 feet.

She noticed that one of the larger spheres seemed to turn
side-on slightly , and she could see that it was in fact two
spheres, connected ("tethered") by a cylinder (soon after
described to Eunice as a "dumb-bell" shape). Two of these
dumbbells were seen during the sighting, which lasted well over
1.5 hours (possibly 2 hours).

Mostly the objects were the smaller, simple spheres and at one
time there were about 20 objects in the sky at once. They
tended to arrive slowly from the East or the West "in waves",
before beginning their fast and complex maneuvers.

Eunice described the larger objects as being "2-3 inches long"
at arm's length which suggests they were between 820 and 980
metres across (900 + 80 metres) - (Peter Turner, Bryan Dickeson
- details to be confirmed).

Maneuvers very complex, and covered whole of the sky -
difficult for any one witness to follow all that was going on:

Examples of movements (some details to be confirmed):

1. Objects in formation would veer off to the left and right,
or come up close to each other, almost to the same point and
stop/hover - showing fast, precise flying, right-angle turns,
or same complex maneuvers mirrored by several objects, or
objects moving side-by-side.

2. Would come in reasonably slow but maneuver very fast - at "a
speed like jets" turning and formation flying. Up to 20
maneuvering at a time, and others "coming in over the house"

3. At one time there were four spheres stacked up one on top of
each other and stationary.

4. Lines of stationary spheres would leapfrog one another. One
sphere would move up and over a stationary one in front or
behind it and fall into line position in front or behind the
stationary sphere by exactly the same distance. The next sphere
would leapfrog under its neighboring sphere and take up
position. These were precise and deliberate, controlled
movements.

5. From a flying 'arrowhead' formation of five, one banked
left, one right, one or two would fly straight-ahead and one
fly straight downwards.

6. Two spheres followed each other in tight formation and at
very high speed while other spheres were moving in and around
these two central objects, travelling even faster and in a more
intricate flightpath.

7. Mario saw at least one of the smaller spheres fly up and
into one of the bigger dumb bells (after he had been talking to
another Ufologist he began referring to these two larger
dumbbell craft as 'motherships')

8. One of the stationary dumbbells had a smaller sphere head
directly towards it at very high speed as if to collide, then
executed a right-angle turn, and swerved to pass right through
the dumbbell and came out the other side unchanged -- all at
high speed!

No 'exhaust' could be seen when these objects flew in a
straight line from A - B. But when objects maneuvering, they
could clearly see a light whitish material streaming out from
inside (?) the object and behind (this was definitely not a
vapour); "it came out of the back of the craft and fell
downwards."

The light material appeared to consolidate into long,
substantial whitish strands that could be seen falling slowly
downwards all around the local area, onto telephone wires and
trees. It was not being blown by the wind - there was no wind -
there had been several days of heavy rain previously (in other
nearby parts of NSW record rainfalls had/were creating flood
conditions); Monday was the first clear, clean blue-sky day
after this rain. The air temperature was still cool and wintry.

The white material appeared to be carried by slight warm-air
"thermals". Very little of this material actually landed in
Eunice's place, but pieces fell in surrounding areas and on the
street nearby. Noelene first retrieved a 30-cm strand from a
nearby bush - it was extremely light, whitish and strong, like
cotton, requiring a good tug to break. It quickly "dissolved"
away to nothing when handled.

Noelene retrieved a second piece which was about 90 cm long and
which seemed to be made up of two separate strands. This was
put into a clean yogurt container with a piece of glad wrap
over the top and a rubber band to hold the glad wrap in place.

Eunice had gone to speak to husband Mario, who was working in
the front of the house on the verandah on repairs, sawing wood
with an electric saw. At first, he thought Eunice was pulling
his leg but could see the objects flying around above the roof
of the house

Mario turned his saw off and placed it on the ground. The saw
turned itself back on (which was unusual) -- still to confirm
what happened with saw after that (Peter Turner, Bryan
Dickeson)

Mario (ex-NATO pilot) said the craft were some way off - higher
than most jets at possibly 50-60,000 feet. He's familiar with
conventional aircraft over flying the area.

Looking straight up, he saw four objects stacked one on top of
the other, in line. In the middle was one of the larger dumb
bells. He thought it must be helicopters at first, but too big.
Appeared to be going to one side and then the other. Mario
watched display for a good 50 minutes - very clear.

Eunice went inside to telephone others and look for their video
camera. She first phoned Telstra Information to see whom she
should call. They put her on to Ross Dowe's National UFO
Information hotline. She spoke to Ross Dowe for about 5 minutes
(at about $3.20 per minute) before saying she had to ring off
because she couldn't afford to keep paying for the call (Ross
wanted her to keep talking). She gave him her phone number so
he could call her back (Ross had said he couldn't guarantee
that he would call her back).

(Apparently Telstra gets the first $3.20 per call and Ross gets
any further time/value per caller - (Bryan Dickeson))

Within a few minutes, the phone started jumping as radio
stations and newspapers began calling Eunice back - Ross must
have put it on the wire (WITHOUT even asking Eunice's
permission) and had still not called back by the following
Friday. By the time she gave up answering the phone and went
back outside, the objects had all gone. No video was taken.

Mario said that the objects had been "jumping from side to
side" - they appeared to fade-out in one location and fade-in
in another location nearby, before they all disappeared.

The same day, but later on that evening at around 7.30, Mario
heard all the neighborhood dogs barking and went outside - he
saw a very bright reddish orange ball of fire, a little smaller
than the moon pass slowly and smoothly overhead from the east -
as if covered with flames. He was unable to estimate it's
height, except to say it was probably not very high up - It
soon disappeared after several minutes behind a range of low
hills/mountains to the west of Quirindi.

After an account appeared in local papers, such as the Northern
Daily Leader (A short, mistake-ridden account also appeared in
the Sydney Daily Telegraph on Tuesday 11 August) and state-wide
radio news telephone interviews with Eunice, she was contacted
by Gary from Gunnedah. He is a Telstra technician who was
visiting the telephone exchange at Piallaway, 40 km North of
Quirindi. At about 2 p.m. Gary noticed masses of white
cobweb-like material falling down around him - falling onto
fences, telephone lines and bushes etc and onto his car. He
could not see anything up in the (clear) sky at all. Mystified
by it all. The cobweb-like substance evaporated fairly quickly
when he handled it. When he got back home to Gunnedah, he
noticed there were still some remnants on his car but this had
since vanished. During all her unanticipated 'public'
interviews with (some very smart-ass) city radio reporters,
Eunice has remained completely unflappable about what they all
saw in Quyirindi. To her it's a fact that they saw something
unusual. Eunice has since been interviewed over the 'phone by
Moira McGhee (INUFOR), and Peter Turner and Bryan Dickeson
(UFORNSW); but has had numerous other calls from media.

Eunice decided to send her yogurt container of angel's hair to
Moira McGhee of INUFOR in Sydney. (Eunice posted it Wednesday,
and Moira received it on Thursday.) Moira contacted Bryan
Dickeson (UFORNSW) on Friday - who suggested she put it into
fridge freezer (angel's hair is a notoriously unstable material
which sublimates from solid to gas phase very quickly) while
Bryan located someone to analyze the material. Time is now of
the essence.

The yogurt-container 'sample' has since been passed on by Moira
McGhee to UFO researcher Bill Chalker (on Saturday evening 14
August) for laboratory analysis via his contacts - for gas
chromatography tests, in vacuum, by a Sydney laboratory. The
package still had not been opened in Sydney on Saturday
evening, to check the state of its contents, HOWEVER......the
Angels hair (AH) sample may have already sublimated altogether.
Reports of AH are fairly common from the 1950s and 1960s (much
rarer recently). One author (Dickeson) remembers a personal AH
incident from March 1958 (when aged 7) in New Zealand when a
small hank of fibres landed on his sleeve from a completely
clear blue sky and sublimated within 5 minutes before he could
get home 1/2 kilometre away to show parents.

There are extremely few good AH cases from the late 1960s to
1990s. Most incidents have since been attributed to 'gossamer'
incidents (the massive accumulation of web-parachutes created
by millions of small spiders for seasonal dispersal/migration -
AH ideas have fallen out of favour in recent years due to the
lack of good, recent examples)

Theories from 1950s (1959) and 1960s re angel's hair could now
be tested fairly reasonably if UFO researchers have good/prompt
access to gas chromatography and X-ray crystallography
equipment.

Back then, AH was seen as a sort of polymer of air molecules
(nitrogen and oxygen) caused by the unusual high frequency,
electromagnetic and plasma effects associated with some UFOs
(especially spinning disks). For example, in a fairy
floss/candy floss machine, coloured sugar is melted in a small,
heated, rotating cup and flows outwards through tiny holes in
the walls of the spinning cup by centrifugal force. When the
molten sugar hits the air it cools into the fibres of coloured
sugar-glass we call fairy floss.

Similarly, AH is thought to form by a metastable polymerization
of Nitrogen and Oxygen. The plasma electromagnetic effects near
UFOs create highly-directed, 180 degree metastable N-O bonds,
which link up into long polymers/fibres around a
quickly-rotating body such as a disk, or in air streaming
through the magnetic field generated in the central cylindrical
section of a bar-magnet-type field. This is consistent in the
Quirindi case with a moving dumb-bell-shaped object, where AH
was seen to form behind the object. This 180 degree bonding
seems chemically possible using some of the so-called
'forbidden' electron states of Nitrogen and Oxygen (states
which are usually only seen to occur in some aurora phenomena
in the near-vacuum plasma environment at the top of the
atmosphere, and which can be simulated in the laboratory).
These bonds are, however, unstable under normal conditions and
the N and O atoms drop off the ends of the AH fibre and return
to their usual N2 and O2 states - that is, the fibres sublimate
from a solid to a gas without melting (to a liquid) in between.

If you have ever used an out-of-synch arc welder, you can
(under the right temperature and moisture conditions) create
small amounts of a similar sort of white 'ash' at the
electrode, which quickly sublimates. Also, a light white
material is created momentarily by the sparks from a large,
discharging Van de Graaf generator in the laboratory. (Bryan
Dickeson has seen this phenomenon at the School of Electrical
Engineering at 11am, in Christchurch New Zealand in 1974. A
path of 'ash' an exactly duplicate the shape of the discharge
sparks is created. This always floats downwards for a second or
so, presumably under the influence of gravity, before
fading/disappearing. The two electrical engineers present
acknowledged this phenomenon and said it didn't seem to be a
visual artifact created on the eye retinas of observers by the
bright discharge spark, but weren't interested/didn't know what
it was). This material has(to our knowledge) never been
analyzed, because it's seen to have no commercial/research
potential.

For ufologists, recreating AH in the laboratory could well
indicate the sorts of electromagnetic conditions found near
UFOs. Any information Bill Chalker's analysis team can find
about the Quirindi material will therefore be most welcome.
(Peter Turner, Bryan Dickeson, 18.08.98)


Sources for this issue:

INUFOR, PO Box 783, Kogarah, NSW 2217
Mike Farrell, PO Box 2526, Port Macquarie, NSW 2444
UFOIC, PO Box W42, West Pennant Hills, NSW 2125
UFOICQ, PO Box 805, Springwood, QLD 4127
UFORNSW, PO Box Q95, Queen Vic Bldg, Sydney, NSW 2000






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 5

                    UFO Web Sights To Visit In Australia

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 00:27:14 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 17:43:40 -0400
Subject: UFO Web Sights To Visit In Australia


Keeping you all in touch with the land down under.

Regards Diane Harrison ;-)

*****************************

Chris's web Page
**********************
http://members.tripod.com/~Cosmic_Chris/index.html

OZ FACTOR page
***********************
http://www.pip.com.au/~paceman/

Australia's  Staton's Page
*******************************
http://www.labyrinth.net.au/~stanton/greys.html

Australian UFO Reports and Experiences
*************************************************
http://ufoinfo.com/ufoicq

Australian UFO Research Network
*****************************************
http://www.bigfoot.com/~auforn

Australian UFO Encounters
**********************************
http://www.flex.com.au/~eagle1

Tasmanian UFO Investigation Centre
********************************************
http://www.netspace.net.au/~tufoic

UFO Research New South Wales
***************************************
http://www.ufor.asn.au

ASFR & UFORUM
**********************
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~amilani/ufo.html

Victorian UFO Research Society
***************************************
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~vufors

Clare Williams - Independent Investigator
***********************************************
http://www.cfmeu.asn.au/cwilliams

Australian UFO Research
********************************
http://www.networx.com.au/home/slider

UFO Investigation Centre Queensland
********************************************
http://powerup.com.au/~ufoicq

Government installations in Australia
********************************************
http://banzai.apana.org.au/update_log.html

http://banzai.apana.org.au/geographical/ashton_hill/

http://banzai.apana.org.au/track/tidbinbilla/

http://banzai.apana.org.au/geographical/nurrungar/

UFO pictures in Australia
******************************
http://www.ebom.org/ray/raysufopictures.html

***************************************************************
If you do visit these sites please drop them an e-mail

Regards Diane :-)
Happy Posting







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 5

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 19:34:36 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 18:08:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 08:45:31 -0400 (EDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:16:18 -0500 (CDT)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Dennis  Staqcy <dstacy@texas.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>
>>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>>Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 19:53:49 EDT
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

><snip>

>>>Now why in the world would they need to keep Brazel locked up
>>>for a week if it was nothing but a Mogul balloon crash?

>>Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but it's always been my
>>impression that Mogul itself was a secret project at the time.
>>Secret is secret. You might as well assert that
>>Japanese-Americans on the west coast were locked up because UFOs
>>were reported over Los Angeles in 1941, although it seems more
>>likely that it was an aftermath of Pearl Harbor. That assumes
>>that all statements about Marcel's incarceration are not just
>>documented, but actually reflect reality.
>
>Kal Korff and others have been harping to me about the fact that
>even though the purpose of Mogul was secret, the actual
>components used in the project were not. Ranchers found them,
>brought them in, collected their money, and went home. No big
>deal.

>Are we to assume that Brazel (not Marcel) was treated
>differently because he somehow knew the purpose of Mogul? That
>doesn't make any sense to me. I think Brazel was treated the way
>he was, and perhaps later rewarded, because he had found
>something unlike anything found before.

>I don't think Brazel found balloon debris.

>Bob

Hi guys,

I agree with Bob there, how much debris could a balloon leave?
Balloons were nothing new for the inhabitants of New Mexico in
those days! Besides, it still leaves to much questions open in
the Roswell-Epos..for example:

What do we do with the accounts of bodies? Should we believe the
ludicrous test-dummy explanation the USAF wants us to buy? Or
should we go and simply dismiss these stories? Or were the
Mogul-balloons occupied by Top Secret Children ;-)

Seems to me the 'mogul-theory' lacks to answer these few rather
important points...

Andy.






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   Sep > Sep 5

               Nellis, UFO Buffs, War Games And Deadly Crashes

From: Gerry Lovell <ed@farshore.force9.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 21:18:07 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 23:43:48 -0400
Subject: Nellis, UFO Buffs, War Games And Deadly Crashes

Source: The Las Vegas Sun [NV]
Date: Sept 5 1998
Header: Nellis Range home to UFO buffs, war games and deadly crashes
Byline: Tim Dahlberg [AP]

LAS VEGAS - The F-117 stealth fighter flew secret nighttime
tests there. So did the U-2 and other spy planes. UFO buffs
believe the government studies aliens in a top-security area on
its northern fringe.

Military mysteries aside, it's no secret Nellis Air Force Base
range can be a deadly place.

The crash of two helicopters about 25 miles south of the top
secret Area 51 section of the range in the early morning
darkness Friday was the latest deadly mishap in an area where
pilots and crew practice dangerous war games nearly every day
high above desert floor.

Though Area 51 and its secret programs are steeped in mystery,
the war games played out are no secret to the small towns
bordering the range, which are routinely buzzed by pilots
engaging in simulated dogfights in the restricted airspace.

The range, 5,200 square miles of desert and dry mountains, is
the home of Red Flag exercises, which pit Air Force pilots and
those from other countries against pilots trained in re-creating
tactics of former Soviet bloc fighters.

Air Force officials say the unit the helicopters were assigned
to flew in Red Flag exercises as recently as Thursday, but that
the two downed helicopters were not involved in Red Flag at the
time of the crash.

Fatal crashes involving various Air Force planes date back four
decades, but the grimmest moment may have come Jan. 18, 1982,
when four pilots of the Air Force Thunderbirds demonstration
team slammed their T-38 jets into the ground while practicing on
an auxiliary field north of Las Vegas.

Just a few months earlier, a C-130 crashed while practicing
nighttime landings at the field, killing seven people.

Area 51, on the northern edge of the range, is shrouded in
mystery. It is here the government has tested some of America's
most exotic aircraft, including the U-2 and SR-71 Blackbird
high-altitude spy or reconnaissance planes, F-117 stealth
fighter and now the top-secret Aurora, another spy plane.

The military has refused to acknowledge the existence of the
heavily-guarded Area 51, 85 miles northwest of Las Vegas near a
spot called Groom Lake.

UFO buffs claim a purported alien found in the crash of a space
vehicle near Roswell, N.M., July 8, 1947, was taken to Area 51.
The government has denied the wreckage found in the New Mexico
desert was that of a spacecraft.

The lore figured in the 1996 blockbuster movie "Independence
Day," which showed a top-secret underground lab at Area 51
conducting alien autopsies and studying a flying saucer.

The Nevada Department of Transportation, mindful of the growing
interest in this remote area, recently named the 92-mile stretch
of state route 375 the "Extraterrestrial Highway," and is
planning to post special road signs.

Souvenir shops around Las Vegas peddle T-shirts, keychains and
other trinkets featuring space aliens with bulbous heads.

Several former workers at Area 51 are suing the government,
claiming they were harmed by burning of toxic materials at the
base, but say their case is stymied by an executive order from
President Clinton blocking release of information about
activities there. They went to the U.S. Supreme Court last
month, appealing a court order protecting the information.

-- end --

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 > > >  Gerry Lovell / Far Shores |http://www.farshore.force9.co.uk
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -







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   Sep > Sep 5

                          BWW Media Alert 19980905

From: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 15:13:34 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 23:28:11 -0400
Subject: BWW Media Alert 19980905

Bufo Calvin
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA  94596
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Website: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufo
calvin<;/a>
<A HREF="surprise link to Amazon.com">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=048
6230945/bufosweirdworldA/<;/a>
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this
edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made
to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with
strangers before you e-mail them something.  If you forward this, please make
sure it is clear that you are forwarding it).


September 5, 1998

Once again, short on time, but this is a much better week.  I did see the
bigfoot piece on PUBLIC EYE, although I didn't find out about it early enough
to tell you.  It was a goofy fluff piece: although they apparently had access
to "more serious" folks, like Grover Krantz, it was much more of a PR piece on
a comedian.  It's sometimes amazing how reporting standards go out the window
in pieces like this.  The KGB UFO piece on TNT will be the big news this
week...

TELEVISION

A&E
Sunday, September 6, 3:00 PM, THE UNEXPLAINED: ALIEN ABDUCTIONS

BBC ONE
Wednesday, September 9, 7:00 PM, X-CREATURES: FATHOMING THE MONSTER (Loch
Ness...this British series is not getting a good reaction in the
cryptozoological community, at least that I've heard so far).  Thanks to Loren
Coleman for the heads-up on this

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL
Sunday, September 6, 1:00 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE POWERS: FROM
MIND TO MIND
Sunday, September 6, 1:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE:  SECRETS
OF ANCIENT WORLDS
Sunday, September 6, 2:00 PM, ANIMAL X: MYTHICAL BEINGS (the Yowie ((a hairy
biped in Australia)), lake monsters, Maryland's goatman)
Sunday, September 6, 2:30 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: BEAST OF THE MOORS (the "Beast
of Bodmin", a big cat in the UK)
Sunday, September 6, 3:00 PM, UFOS DOWN TO EARTH: DEEP SECRETS (Area 51, etc.)
Thursday, September 10, 9:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: LAKE MONSTER ("Champ" of
Lake Champlain)
Friday, September 11, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: LAKE MONSTER ("Champ" of Lake
Champlain)
Friday, September 11, 2:00 PM, TRAVELERS: LAS VEGAS (includes UFOs)
Next Sunday, September 13, 1:00 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE
POWERS: FAIRIES, PHANTOMS, AND FANTASTIC PHOTOGRAPHS (includes the Cottingley
Fairy photographs, championed by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle)
Next Sunday, September 13, 1:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE:
GIANTS OF EASTER ISLAND
Next Sunday, September 13, 2:00 PM, ANIMAL X: AMAZING ANIMALS (not sure if
this will be appropriate, but it usually is)
Next Sunday, September 13, 2:30 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: LAKE MONSTER ("Champ" of
Lake Champlain)
Next Thursday, September 17, 9:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: CHINESE WILDMAN
Next Friday, September 17, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: CHINESE WILDMAN

THE SCI-FI CHANNEL
Continues their daily reruns of SIGHTINGS.
Sun, September 6 7:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #5064
Sun, September 6 11:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #5064
Mon, September 7 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #223
Mon, September 7 8:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #223
Tue, September 8 9:00 AM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #5065
Tue, September 8 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #224
Tue, September 8 8:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #224
Wed, September 9 9:00 AM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #5066
Wed, September 9 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #225
Wed, September 9 8:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #225
Thu, September 10 9:00 AM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #5067
Thu, September 10 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #101
Thu, September 10 8:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #101
Fri, September 11 9:00 AM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #5068
Fri, September 11 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #102
Fri, September 11 8:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #102
Sun, September 13 7:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #5069
Sun, September 13 11:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #5069

TNT
Sunday, September 13, 8:00 PM, THE SECRET KGB UFO FILES (hosted by Roger
Moore: a lot of people have been waiting for this one!)
Sunday, September 13, 11:00 PM, THE UFO COVER-UP: LIVE FROM AREA 51 (hosted by
Larry King: I assume this is a repeat of a show done some time ago, featuring
UFO experts.  One of the elements I remember most is Stanton Friedman really
being negative on Bob Lazar...to the extent that he came off as nasty, in my
opinion.  Didn't help Friedman's credibility on the show, which is too bad)
Wednesday, September 16, 11:00 PM, THE SECRET KGB UFO FILES (hosted by Roger
Moore: a lot of people have been waiting for this one!)
___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly
redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by
e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com.  You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to
Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if
there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t
he week before.
_____________________________

**OPUS is the Organization for Paranormal Understanding and Support. I am an
Executive Boardmember, and Director of the OPUS Educational Institute. OPUS
encourages its officers and Network Associates to express their own opinions:
however, it is important to note that I do not speak for OPUS in this piece
or others presented under my own name.  For more information on OPUS, see its we
bsite at http://members.aol.com/josephxx3






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 15:50:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 23:30:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


Bob, Dennis and David: [Shell, Stacy & Rudiak]

We all love to be a part of anything "secret"! Having served
four tours at the Pentagon on the Army and Joint Staff and on
several theater military operational staffs as a senior Army
officer I am somewhat familiar with "secrets." However, the
Mogul balloon train "secret" you refer to in connection with the
Roswell Event was anything but that.

Consider that the very next day after I photographed General
Ramey, Colonel Dubose and Major Marcel with the Roswell debris
in Ramey's office in Fort Worth on July 8, 1947, the Army Air
Forces demonstrated a "Mogul" train for the press and even
allowed close-up pictures to be taken. Of course, it wasn't
described then as a "Mogul" train because that term had not yet
been born, according to Professor Charles Moore, project
engineer.

Take a look at the coverage of this event which was reported on
the front page of the Alamogordo (NM) News on Thursday, July 10,
1947. The banner headline proclaimed "Fantasy of "Flying Disc"
Is Explained Here". A secondary headline says "News Men Watch
Army Radar Crew Launch "Disc"." Four AAF officers pictured are
identified in the cutlines as being assigned to the "Watson
Laboratories Army Materiel Command long range radar detection
project (emphasis added) at the Army Air Base nine miles west of
Alamogordo. These are the officers in charge at the station and
Major (W. D.) Pritchard (one of the four pictured) is the one
who invited members of the Alamogordo News staff to view the
launching of a corner reflector Wednesday at 1 p.m."

Cutlines under another picture describe that the "Launching of
the radar experimental device is about to take place in the
above picture. This is undoubtedly the device reported far and
wide as the "flying disc." It is in the above picture as snapped
by a member of the Alamogordo News staff, shown to be a
two-balloon carried pair of commonly used radar reflector paper
triangles covered with tinfoil and held tightly by small wooden
strips. Each of these corner reflectors is held to the other and
the two supporting balloons by twine. On the edges of each
"flying disc" is stapled a slip of typed paper bearing the words
"Property of Army Materiel Command, Watson Laboratories, Army
Air Field, Alamogordo, New Mexico."  Sure nothing very "secret"
here!

Incidentally, there MUST have been SOME kind of material
"switch" here because the debris I photographed in General
Ramey's office obviously was not the remains of the kind of
"device" shown in Alamogordo. In my photos there are no
"property notices", "small wooden strips" (the beams I
photographed are shaped, drilled, hollow and certainly not wood)
and NO TWINE -- none whatsoever -- is to be seen!

There are quite detailed descriptions in the accompanying
stories of the "long range radar detection" devices and details
as to their mission. Also, the newspaper staff was allowed to
cover the ensuing flight until it landed. Several things
mentioned are of special interest:

The stories state that the multi-balloon "trains" aim for 30,000
to 40,000 feet altitude and that some have drifted west to
Arizona and north to Colorado. They are tracked in flight by
radar and by B-17s and other aircraft. "We do not use the
devices here for weather observation", Major Pritchard
explained, "but for training of men and experimental purposes."
Sure no attempts here to be very "secret."

This radar device launch demonstration for the press and the
permitting of close-up photos was consistent with the absence of
obvious security or of any kind of restrictions imposed on me in
photographing the debris in General Ramey's office the day
before. There, as has frequently been reported, I was permitted
without any supervision to help unpack and "pose" for
photographing the debris which Major Marcel had brought from
Roswell to Fort Worth. Strangely, apparently I was the only
civilian photographer ever to have an opportunity to photograph
the strange debris.

One last observation: the Alamogordo stories include that:

"These corner reflectors when packed before attaching to the
towing balloons, are about 48 inches across and are a perfect
triangle. The balloon, or balloons, are then attached by a
string to the center of this triangle... (the train) is very
light and is towed by a synthetic rubber balloon made of
neoprene which is boiled an hour before use so as to increase
its life and resistance to atmospheric conditions. The balloons
are about four feet in diameter and light colored."

Again, there was nothing meeting this description included in
the smelly debris which I photographed in General Ramey's
office.

As to the mission of these experiments, the articles stated
that:

"These experiments and many others will continue at the local
base, the group stated, with the hope of perfecting radar
equipment to a greater range, more efficiency and towards the
goal of photographic-radar tracking that is instantaneous."

Mysterious? Absolutely! Secret? Nah.

By the way, I hear tell there will be a sensational "smoking
gun" announcement re Roswell made by Ron Regehr when he speaks
to MUFON Orange County later this month. Ron is, as you know, a
well known satellite project engineer for Aerojet and also is
coordinator of the RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team)
which has been busy "revisiting" the Roswell photos for several
months now with increasingly fascinating results!  Keep tuned!






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   Sep > Sep 5

                             Maree Man - Update

From: Doc Barry <authority@webtv.net
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:59:40 -0700 (MST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 23:26:40 -0400
Subject: Maree Man - Update

Thanks to Clifford M. Dubery <duberycm@ocean.com.au> for sending this
update on "Marree Man",

To view a photo taken from the air of the 2 and one-half mile long
drawing go to:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518/abman400.html

=3D=3D=3D=3D WHODUNIT? =3D=3D=3D=3D

The Mystery of Marree man.
by Roy Eccleston.=A0 From: The Weekend Australian 5 September 1998

ARTIST Christopher Headley should not have been too surprised
when the local policeman from Marree, 600km north of Adelaide,
rang to quiz him about the discovery of a 4km-tall depiction of
an Aboriginal hunter ploughed into a local plateau. Not to put
too fine a point on it, the constable wanted to know if Headley
was the culprit ... er, artist responsible. Not me, the quietly
spoken Headley, 47, told the officer, who was acting on
information received. Information such as a letter the artist
had sent to officials at Woomera, also in the State's north,
proposing a large drawing on the ground there. Small wonder,
then, that Headley became a suspect. After all, how many people
go around making enormous pictures in the landscape? Well, none
that Headley can think of in this country --and he should know
because he's researching the subject as part of a PhD through
Monash University.

So far, Headley has drawn camels-on-wheels on to a saltpan near
Mildura,.a Meccano boy cyclist on to a former industrial site in
Port Adelaide and three dolphins on another disused site beside
the Port River. All can be properly viewed only from the air --
so he pays an aerial photographer to record them. But, says the
ceramicist who was turned on to giant art after viewing the
ancient Nazca lines in Peru, Marree Man wasn't his style.

"It looks like a one-off thing, a hit-and-run job," he says. "To
me art is about making serious comment... a statement about the
human condition." And he doesn't understand what the image
represents, apart from possibly an old photograph. Besides, says
the man who keeps a 14kg ball of string in his studio to mark
out his works, it wasn't his scale. "I've been describing my
work as large drawings," he says of his creations, none of which
have measured more than 300m across. "Now I've got to call them
medium size."

The Marree Man is certainly big, 28km in circumference and
ploughed into the plateau with the aid, surveyors suggest, of a
satellite-linked global positioning system. Equally big has been
the stink that followed his appearance in July. Anatomically
accurate maybe, Marree Man was anything but politically correct.
"Crass graffiti," cried the critics of the depiction of a hunter
about to throw a stick-like object held, curiously enough, in
his left hand. "Environmental vandalism." "Culturally
insensitive."

Maybe it's all those things, but it's something else as well: a
big puzzle. Why would anyone bother? Among the most famous of
enigmatic landmarks are the Nazca lines in Peru, thought to have
been created on a rainless plain sometime between the first and
eighth centuries AD. Covering about 500sqkm, the enigmatic lines
and designs were produced by removing red gravel to reveal
yellow-white stones underneath.

There are swirls, zigzags, straight lines going nowhere and huge
representations of animals and plants including a 120m-long bird
and a 50m spider. Some claim this all is aligned somehow with
the movement of the heavens. More famously, Erich Von Daniken's
late-1960s book Chariots of the Gods? likened the Nazca lines to
landing markings at an airport.

Even older are the chalk drawings in England -- the White Horse
at Uffing-ton, the Long Man at Wilmington and the sensational
Cerne Giant who, at 55m tall, is a midget next to Marree Man. At
least, the Cerne Giant, in Dorset, is supposed to be ancient --
although underlining the ability of these works to inspire
debate, some claim he's a baby at just 300 years old.

In fact, an entire book was written just last year on the
argument, with author Rodney Castleden concluding the giant was
a pre-Roman warrior drawn into the chalk hillside between 500BC
and 100BC. Wielding a wicked club, the giant is most famous for
his 7m erect penis, which Castleden reckons equates to a
sizeable 23cm on a normal man.

As no one knows why the giant was put there in the first place,
it hasn't been clear why he needed such a large appendage. That
hasn't stopped childless couples trying their luck on that 7m
patch of grus. One local artist was so moved by the giant's
excitement he thought he needed a partner, and proposed an
outline of Marilyn Monroe, skirt blowing around her hips, on a
hill opposite. That was rejected by local authorities.

Castleden argues everyone's got it wrong,  the giant's not
over-endowed or randy. His erection, he says, is the equivalent
of a single-fingered salute to his enemies. And the generous
length? The giant was merely given an extension 100 years back
when Victorians cutting back the grass that grows over the chalk
mistakenly mistook his belly button for the tip of his penis.

Marree Man may not last as long as these examples but, in the
short term, he's providing just as much intrigue. Whodunit?
Everyone's got a theory and, as Hercule Poirot might see it,
quite a few might also have a motive. There are the locals, of
course, who stand to gain most in tourism. For example, this
newspaper reported last month that the local hotel had been put
up for sale and the airline operating joy flights had ordered a
new plane.

But the town of 80 says it knew nothing of the work -- until the
pub received an anonymous fax in early July announcing a giant
image on Crown land on a plateau at Finnis Springs. When a small
posse, including the local constable, arrived at the site, they
apparently found a satellite photograph of the man, a US flag
and a note =B7 mentioning the Branch Davidian cult.

It wasn't long before the mystery was picked up by the media,
and the finger-pointing started. Western Mining Corporation,
with its Roxby Downs mine a few hundred kilometres away, got a
call from Reg Dodd, one of the Aboriginal leaders from the
Maxtee area, asking whether its workers were responsible. WMC's
Richard Yeeles says he looked at whether employees or
contractors could have done it, "and there is no possibility
anyone associated with WMC did this".

Then there were reports of Australian army vehicles moving
through the area. It turned out 17 Construction Group had been
working with Aborigines on pro-j jects in the west of the State,
but "it wasn't us", says the army. "I spoke to the commanding
officer of Land Command in Sydney," says Defence PR's spokesman
in Canberra. "The thing was, the closest they ever went [to the
site] was at least 200km."

The attention on the military is understandable. Aerial
photography would have been needed to pick out a suitable site,
as well as some surveying expertise to plot an outline over such
a large distance. It would be relatively easy to transfer a
photograph on to a computer, blow it up to a size that fitted
the plateau, and then map in co-ordinates of latitude and
1ongtitude.

Using a hand-held global positioning system, each co-ordinate
could then be marked on the site with a stake every hundred
metres or so, says Adelaide surveyor Shayne Hennig. "From a
surveying point of view, it's not very difficult," he says. "You
have to lean towards the army, they would have all that kind of
stuff."

Other clues come from the language of the anonymous press
releases, which have a military and foreign tone. The first one,
calling the outline "Stuart's Giant" after the explorer John
McDouall Stuart, proclaimed it the world's largest work of art,
50 times bigger than any other human form.

Using miles, yards and inches, the writer wrote of "your State
of SA", the "Queensland Barrier Reef" and talked of Aborigines
"from the local reservations". In another release, the writer
referred to the time Stuart crossed the plateau at "0:7:30
hours". Another referred to the previous largest work of art
being the Great Serpent in Ohio, a snakelike mound made by
Indians and not widely known about outside art circles or the
US. The police don't think it's the Americans, though.

Detective Sergeant Des Bray from Port Augusta CIB says: "I don't
think there's any doubt at all, the Americans have got nothing
to do with it. Why would they?" So, perhaps all the imperial
measures and stuff about reservations was a red herring. After
all, which Americans would be able to do it? And where would
they 'get the idea?

Headley has his own theory on that. He sent two letters to
Woomera earlier year, one to the Australian area administrator
and another to Colonel Tom Meade, head of the US Air Force
contingent at the joint defence facility at Nurrungar, due to
pull out at the end of next year. The Woomera idea, he says, was
inscribe a toy spaceman in his ship launched from an anvil.
Maybe, he suggested to Meade, the work could be as a
commemoration of the American time in Australia and could even
made permanent.

But, although the area manager suggested Headley visit the area,
the letter to Meade went unanswered (although several
unsuccessful attempts were made to tell HeadIy "no thanks" by
phone). Headley says he told the Marree Police of the letter to
the Americans. "Perhaps it triggered someone's lmaglr,~tlon," he
thinks. "You know: 'This is a good idea and we can do it
ourselves.'" It does seem a bit of a coincidence. One of the few
people anywhere creating giant art suggests the idea to the US
military and soon after a giant drawing appears as a "gift" to
South Australian tourism, announced by faxed material full of
Americanisms. Hmmm.

So did the letter get into someone else's hands at Nurrungar and
give them an idea? "I can answer that," says the Joint-commander
of the base, Wing Commander Jim Walker of the RAAF. "Anything's
possible." But, he adds, it's highly unlikely. He and Meade have
made some inquiries about whether their men could have been
involved. They don't think they were. In any case, the police
haven't approached the base on the matter. "I haven't conducted
a formal investigation," says Walker, adding that there is no
grading equipment at the base. "Our people think it's a bit of a
joke, just like the rest of Australia."

Not everybody. The local Aborigines may be split into two groups
contesting local land ownership, including the Marree Man site,
but they have both condemned it. The South Australian Government
also has warned people to stay away from the plateau and says it
won't allow the outline to become more permanent by digging to a
layer of chalky material underneath. (Instead, the image is
likely to be outlined with plant life, thanks to the use of a
plough to mark it.)

Certainly Dr Philip Jones is not laughing. The head of
anthropology at the South Australian Museum says the outline is
vandalism, without doubt, and he strongly suspects the hand of
foreigners. "If these characters [who did it] are Americans and
they've taken it upon themselves to improve the Australian
landscape in that way, I think it does amount to vandalism," he
says. "And people rightly ought to be concerned about it,
particularly when it involves an appropriation of Aboriginal
imagery."

Like HeadIy, Jones believes the perpetrators have used an old
photograph and reversed it to make it fit on to the plateau.
Hence the man is throwing something with his left hand, but what
is it? According to a "clarification" faxed to media from those
who did it, the giant is a hunter with not a club, as some have
reported, but a throwing-stick, a weapon "carried at all times"
and used to bring down birds.

Jones says this is more evidence that those responsible didn't
really understand Aboriginal culture. The stick is, he says, a
boomerang, as is made clear from the stance. But because of the
angle, the boomerang's curve is hidden and so it has been
mistaken for a stick. If it really were a throwing-stick as in a
spear-thrower, a woomera (a clue, Monsieur Poirot?) it would
have been held at a different angle and have a spear attached.
"Getting around with a throwing stick and pretending you can be
a hunter is a bit like going around with the stock of a gun
without a barrel," scoffs Jones.

As well, the giant is depicted nude while he almost certainly
would have had a loin cloth draped over him for the purpose of
the 19th-century photograph. "To" my mind, that feature [the
genitals] has not only been drawn in but probably exaggerated as
well." All of which might seem like, harmless fun. Not to Jones.
"I do think it's harmful. It creates a precedent to interfere
with what's a pretty fragile environment." As well, it's another
example of White People looking at the land and thinking it's
empty and belongs to no one, when it has deep meaning to the
Aborigines.

Even the name given by those responsible- Stuart's Giant -- was
a case of not being able to find meaning in the landscape beyond
that of a European explorer who happened to cross it. "It's a
bit pathetic the way that people have fallen over themselves to
see this as a tourist attraction, when really the country is far
more interesting without it," says Jones.

Marree Man has his supporters, though, and they're not just the
postcard and T-shirt makers, or tourist operators such as
Oscar's Outback Tours, which has anointed the drawing an
artistic "masterpiece" and the "eighth wonder of the world". Kym
Bonython, prominent Adelaide art promoter and gallery owner for
three decades, reckons it's marvellous,  and it's art. "It will
become like Ayers Rock. It's well done, not disrespectful in any
way to Aboriginal people and a remarkably well-made piece of
art." Others beg to differ. To be sure, there was an art
movement in the late 1960s and early 70s called earth works, or
land art, in which artists forsook the galleries and "precious
objects" and used the land as their raw material. This was often
only seen by the public in photographs.

One of the best known examples is Robert Smithson's Spiral Jetty
in the Great Salt Lake in Utah, where tonnes of rock and earth
formed a swirling shape on (now under) the water. Dutchman
Dennis Oppenheim once cut a great cross in a field of wheat
he’d grown and called that art. Christo, the great wrapper
of landscape and landmarks, including Sydney's Little Bay in
1969, is from this school.

But one of Australia's foremost practitioners, Ken Unsworth,
sees little if any merit in Marree Man. After hearing a
description of it, he says it appears to be a great
insensitivity to the site and the Aborigines. "It still
surprises me today that anybody, let alone artists, would still
be guilty of crass ignorance or disregard for Aboriginal
sensitivities," he says.

The Art Gallery of NSW is showing a retrospective of Unsworth
later this year. Its contemporary art curator, Victoria Lynn,
won't rule out Marree Man as art because she says that much
depends on the context. Yes, it might be offensive, brutal,
unwanted, but that doesn't mean it's not art, "if it's done by
an artist in a particular context", she says. "I think the
context is very important and as we don't know who did it and
what the intentions are, it's very difficult to know whether one
can understand it as art or vandalism."

Whatever it is, it remains a mystery. The police are no longer
investigating and no one looks like owning up. That makes
everyone's theories equally valid.

Those responsible had the last word in another press release
late last month. Urging the Olsen Government to allow Aboriginal
groups to charge an access fee to the site, they vowed to remain
anonymous but clearly believed they had created something
artistic. "Finally, our view is summarised as follows," ended
the untraceable fax. "In Stuart's Giant, half the art is mystery
and so, enduring, let it be."


******"UFO Interest" news updated TWICE daily =3D "What's Up Doc?"
www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518/







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   Sep > Sep 6

                UFO Seen When Two Japanese Fighters Disappear

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 01:51:46 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 00:06:33 -0400
Subject: UFO Seen When Two Japanese Fighters Disappear


Source: The Japan Times via "alt.ufo.reports".

Stig

*******

>From Japan Times
Author:=BF cheese =BF
Email:pop@pop.com
Date:1998/09/05
Forums:alt.ufo.reports view for bookmarking =BF=B7=BF text only=BF

From Japan Times:

quote

MISSING FIGHTERS: Two Air Self-Defense Force F-1 support fighters
disappeared off the coast of Iwate Prefecture on Aug. 25 during
night-flying practice over the Pacific Ocean. The two F-1 fighters lost
radio contact and vanished from radar screens at about 6:59 p.m., about
half an hour after taking off from Misawa Air Base. The pilot of
another F-1 that was in a three-plane formation with the missing
fighters told the agency he saw a red fireball during flight.

unquote

Note: The Mitsubishi F1 is a single seat tactical fighter
version of the T-2 trainer, similar in design to the
British/French Jaguar.



=BF






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              Re: UFO Seen When Two Japanese Fighters Disappear

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 02:19:02 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 00:13:51 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Seen When Two Japanese Fighters Disappear

Source: The Japan Times

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/news8-98/news8-26.html

Stig

*******

(August 26)

<snip>

Debris offers clue to fate of ASDF jets

*

Floating debris found in the Pacific early Wednesday was
confirmed as pieces of one or both of two Air Self-Defense Force
F-1 fighter jets that disappeared after apparently colliding
Tuesday during evening low-altitude drills, a Defense Agency
spokesman said.

The spokesman said the rescue teams also found part of a human
body, though the agency has yet to confirm if it belonged to
either of the two missing pilots.

The Self-Defense Forces and Maritime Safety Agency dispatched 13
search planes as well as 13 patrol boats Wednesday to look for
the two missing pilots of the single-seat fighters -- 1st Lt.
Hirokazu Nagai and 1st Lt. Madoka Nakaya, both 29. MSA patrol
boats found the metal debris floating some 60 km off Kuji, Iwate
Prefecture, early in the morning.

One chunk, a 50-cm by 30-cm fragment painted dark green on one
side and white on the other, was confirmed as part of the
camouflaged horizontal stabilizer of one of the Mitsubishi F-1
support fighters, the spokesman said.

Radio contact was lost with the two jets and they vanished from
radar screens over the Pacific at about 7 p.m. Tuesday, half an
hour after they took off from Misawa Air Base in Aomori
Prefecture.

The pilot of another F-1 that was part of a three-plane
formation with the missing fighters, told the agency he saw a
red fireball during flight, according to the spokesman.

<snip>

Copyright (C) 1998, The Japan Times
All rights reserved






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   Sep > Sep 6

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: James Bond Jonson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 20:11:33 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 00:10:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 15:50:37 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

Bob, Dennis and David: [Shell, Stacy & Rudiak]

An addendum to my earlier response:

The more one reads the various written accounts of the Roswell Events the more
one can become confused due to the reporting varieties encountered! For
instance, in the Alamogordo News coverage of the official Army Air Forces
"flying disc" explanation and flight demonstration held at the Alamogordo AAF
base on July 9, 1947, the very next day after the official AAF announcement of
the capture of a "flying saucer" near Roswell, it is stated by Major W. D.
Pritchard, AAF spokesman and project team member, that the "long range radar
detection project" (much, much later identified by the Air Force as the "Mogul
Train Project") had "periodically released" these "widely discussed and
reported" "balloon and corner reflector radar experimental devices" over "the
past fifteen months from this local headquarters of the Army Materiel
Command..."  The Alamogordo newspaper also stated that Alamogordo residents
had reported frequent sightings of these balloon train launches during that
period and that a number of the devices had been recovered by citizens and
turned in to the AAF to receive a reward. So there was nothing new or novel
about these flights.

The grounds for confusion:

At noon on July 8, 1947, the AAF officially announced (at Roswell Air Base)
the capture of a "flying saucer."

At 6 p.m. on July 8, 1947, the AAF officially announced (at Fort Worth) that
what had been "captured" actually was a "weather device."

At 1 p.m. on July 9, 1947, (one day later) the AAF officially announced (at
Alamogordo Air Base) that what was "captured" was NOT a "weather device" but
was just another launch in a 15-month old experimental "long range detection
project".

On July 27, 1994, (47 years later) the USAF officially announced (following an
extensive research project) that what was "captured" "most likely" was "one of
the Project MOGUL balloon trains", a balloon-launched classified government
project designed to determine the state of Soviet nuclear weapons research."

In July of 1995, (another year later) the USAF officially announced (following
another extensive research project) that what actually was "captured" were
just some dummies dropped out an airplane in the 1950s. This time discrepancy
was not explained. The USAF nervously stamped "Case Closed!" on this report.







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   Sep > Sep 6

               Barwood No Longer Affiliated With UFO Believers

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 01:05:58 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 00:38:47 -0400
Subject: Barwood No Longer Affiliated With UFO Believers


Source: The Arizona Daily Star

http://www.azstarnet.com/public/dnews/126-6089.html

Stig

*******

Saturday, 5 September 1998

Bayless, Barwood view secretary of state role differently

By Jill Jorden Spitz
The Arizona Daily Star

*

Betsey Bayless and Frances Emma Barwood are both Republicans.

They both have held public office.

They're both 54.

They're both seeking the Republican nomination to be secretary
of state.

And that's where the similarities end.

Bayless, who was appointed secretary of state last September, is
warm and understated. Barwood, a former Phoenix City Council
member and vice mayor, is high-spirited and outspoken.

Bayless prides herself on her efficiency, integrity and
leadership. Barwood takes pride in her take-no-prisoners
sensibility and willingness to take on whomever and whatever is
in her way.

Bayless is buttoned-down and businesslike. Barwood appeared at
her campaign kickoff with UFO researchers who vowed the
candidate would bring unexplained, extraterrestrial visitations
to the forefront.

After unexplained lights appeared over Phoenix in March 1997,
Barwood - then a city councilwoman - demanded an investigation.
She now says she still wants to know the source of the
mysterious V-shaped light formation reported by hundreds of
Phoenix-area residents, but she maintains she has no particular
interest - or belief - in UFOs.

She says she no longer is affiliated with the UFO believers who
attended her kickoff press conference.

But perhaps the biggest difference between the candidates is in
their ideas for cleaning up the voter rolls. During her year in
office, Bayless has worked to purge the names of voters who have
died, moved out of the state or been convicted of a felony.

Barwood says that's not enough. She believes voter fraud is
rampant - particularly among illegal aliens and people voting
under false names. The only way to combat that, she contends, is
to require voters to show proof of identification and U.S.
citizenship at the polls.

"There is absolutely nothing to check the validity of voters,"
Barwood said. "We found people voting under criminal aliases,
bogus names. Even animals were registered to vote."

Although the U.S. Justice Department has ruled it illegal to ask
for proof of citizenship, Barwood said that's a ruling she's
prepared to challenge.

"We need to have somebody in that office who's not afraid to
deal with the hard stuff," she said. "If that means taking on
the federal government and saying, 'This is our state and this
is the way we're going to do it,' so be it."

In Bayless' view, her job is to uphold the law - not to fight
it.

"Whatever I do from this office will be done according to the
law, because that's the oath I took." she said. "I am unwilling
to put tax dollars at risk and our elections at risk by
undertaking elections that could be illegal in the eyes of the
federal government."

Beyond cleaning up the voter rolls, Bayless wants to increase
voter turnout. Her office mails birthday cards and voter
registration forms to 18-year-olds, and plans extensive research
and community forums to determine why people don't vote.

Barwood said she would push for greater Election Day
accountability, with large windows that allow the public to
watch as ballots are counted. She also would like all counting
videotaped, and favors keeping ballots for the term of each
office.

Considering the office's relatively unexciting role overseeing
elections and processing paperwork, differences between the
candidates may seem inconsequential.

But consider this: The secretary of state steps into the
governor's office should it be vacated. And consider this: In
the past two decades, three secretaries of state have ascended
to Arizona's highest office.

Last fall, Jane Hull was sworn in after former Gov. Fife
Symington was convicted of federal bank fraud. In 1988, Rose
Mofford became governor after Evan Mecham was impeached.

Wesley Bolin moved into the governor's office in 1977, after
Raul Castro resigned to become U.S. ambassador to Argentina.

The winner of Tuesday's primary will face House Minority Leader
Art Hamilton, who is the sole Democrat seeking the post.










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   Sep > Sep 6

             Re: Barwood No Longer Affiliated With UFO Believers

From: Frances Emma Barwood <fbarwood@primenet.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 18:45:09 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 00:52:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Barwood No Longer Affiliated With UFO Believers


>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 01:05:58 +0200
>Subject: Barwood No Longer Affiliated With UFO Believers

<snip>

>After unexplained lights appeared over Phoenix in March 1997,
>Barwood - then a city councilwoman - demanded an investigation.
>She now says she still wants to know the source of the
>mysterious V-shaped light formation reported by hundreds of
>Phoenix-area residents, but she maintains she has no particular
>interest - or belief - in UFOs.

>She says she no longer is affiliated with the UFO believers who
>attended her kickoff press conference.

Dear People,

This article was emailed to me by Jim Hickman and several
others. It was the first I saw it and I never interviewed with
that reporter. I did interview with the editor, Mike. He asked
me if Steve Bassett was still with the campaign and I said no
and that I didn't even know what he was doing now. That was all
that was said.

I still have all the friends I started with regarding the
Phoenix Lights and have not nor will I ever distance myself from
them. There are some really neat people that I met due to
whatever it was over Arizona.

It seems so interesting that first they blasted me for asking
the question and now they are trying to cause disension within
the ranks. The Tucson paper has never been known for their
accuracy and is known as the Red Star even by Tucsonians. Wonder
why?

If you have any doubt that I will stop pushing for answers
regarding March 13, please put it to rest.

Most of the UFO community have been invited over to my house
election night. I would not be writing this now if I shyed away
from questioning the govt. or if I reacted to pressure to change
my thinking.

Remember all the people that have been attacked from within and
don't fall for the last minute minipulations of the news media
who are afraid to ask the govt the tough questions. They only
know how to create gossip. Feel free to visit my website. I wish
that I was asked about this before it was assumed the article
was correct.

Thank you and please feel free to call, email or write.

Frances Emma Barwood
Candidate for Arizona Secretary of State
Sept. 8 PRIMARY Nov. 3

GENERAL
http://www.barwood.com
P.O.Box 86189,
Phoenix,
AZ 85080-6189
602-780-7650
602-780-9125 fax

"People can lie, cheat, steal and murder in this world, and they may get
away with it, But we are all going to judgement and that is all that





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                              UFO*BC Web Update

From: UFO*BC <pengilly@axionet.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 17:17:47 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 00:58:44 -0400
Subject: UFO*BC Web Update

We have recently updated our website - http://ufobc.org

1) Vanderhoof Crop Circles - Crop circle expert Chad Deetken
believes these are the real thing. Read the Prince George
Citizen article and see one of the photos. Amazing!

2) Tagish Lake Photo - Excellent article by Martin Jasek of
7 strange objects seen over Tagish Lake, in the Yukon.

3) "Now, Just Watch the Birdies" - Report by our president,
Graham Conway, of strange balls of light in Richmond.

4) "Surrey Strange Happenings (part 2) - Report by Steve Adair
 about more strangeness in the Surrey Corridor.

5) New additions to our Archives: 1911, 1924, 1967.

6) Latest sightings to come across our desk.

***********************************************************

If you do not want to receive these updates, please reply
with your e-mail address and I wil gladly rempve your name
from the list. Thank you.

Dave Pengilly
dave@ufobc.org






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                       C-E: Area-51 Crash With Comment

From: Kenny Young <task@FUSE.NET>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 03:10:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 01:20:15 -0400
Subject: C-E: Area-51 Crash With Comment

A Search For Clues In Wake Of Deadly Air Force Crash
1.44 a.m. ET (546 GMT) September 5, 1998

By Angie Wagner, Associated Press

NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. (AP) -- The Air Force helicopter
crews were practicing rescues, going over how to find downed
pilots in the dark Nevada desert.

But the two aircraft crashed in the Nevada desert near the
top-secret Area 51, killing all 12 people aboard. The wreckage
was found at 2 a.m. Friday, 90 minutes after the HH-60G Pave
Hawk choppers were due back.

 The choppers were flying through the rugged Pintwater
Mountains, 6,000-foot peaks that drop 3,000 feet to desert
valley floors. Light rain was falling at the time of the crash,
said Brig. Gen. Theodore Lay, commander of the 57th Wing at
Nellis.

 It wasn't known whether the helicopters crashed into each other
or went down separately, Lay said. Crews were searching the
terrain for clues to the cause of the crash.

 A support center was set up at Nellis for grieving relatives.

 "As we await further information about this terrible incident,
our thoughts and prayers are with the families of the crew
members,'' Vice President Al Gore said.

 The crews were on a standard mission to practice recovering
downed pilots. Normally that involves recovering either a crew
member or a dummy from the ground, Lay said.

 Crew members are supposed to wear night-vision goggles on such
missions, Lay said, but he would not speculate on whether that
was a factor in the crash.

 Tech. Sgt. Richard Covington said wreckage was spread over a
wide area but would not elaborate. The area is a bombing range
with unexploded munitions.

 The helicopters are with the 66th Rescue Squadron, which
specializes in rescuing downed pilots and others from behind
enemy lines. Units recently returned from duty in Turkey and
Southeast Asia, and have seen action in the no-fly zone over
Iraq.

 The crash site is in the Nellis Range, 5,200 square miles of
mountain and desert northwest of Las Vegas that's used for
training and test flights. It is not far from Indian Springs,
about 55 miles northwest of Las Vegas.

 The site is also southeast of Area 51, a mysterious section of
the range where the F-117 Stealth fighter and other classified
aircraft have been tested. The Air Force won't officially
acknowledge the existence of the area, shown on some maps as
Groom Lake.

 Area 51 is a staple of science fiction; UFO enthusiasts and
conspiracy buffs are convinced the wreckage of a flying saucer
they believe crashed near Roswell, N.M., in 1947 was taken there
to be studied.

 Previous air disasters at Nellis include the January 1982 crash
in which four Air Force Thunderbird pilots slammed their jets
into the ground while practicing at Indian Springs. All four
were killed when a stabilizer stuck in the lead plane and the
three others followed him into the ground.

 The HH-60G helicopter, built by Sikorsky Aircraft Corp.,
normally carries a crew of four people: two pilots, a flight
engineer and a gunner. Some, including the two that crashed,
also carry two rescue crew members.

 The Air Force said it has 99 HH-60G helicopters in use at 12
bases in the United States and abroad.

 The crash was the 22nd major aviation accident in the Air Force
in the fiscal year that ends Sept. 30, with "major'' defined as
causing a death or $1 million damage. That has been one of the
best records in the military, officials said.

 In same 11-month span last year, the Air Force logged 25 major
accidents.

End of article
___________________________________________

Comment:

Might I complain about the "staple of science fiction" comment
used by Associated Press reporter Angie Wagner? If the lore
surrounding Area-51 is mere science fiction, as the reader is
informed, why is this fiction referenced in her reportage?

Why is Wagner noting the lore of Roswell and crashed UFO stories
if the reader is subsequently informed that it is all nonsense?
Where and why would this "science fiction" reference be relevant
to reportage of an Air Force mishap involving twelve casualties?
How does the mention of fantasy and delusion benefit the reader
who should be informed of a serious military mishap instead?

Perhaps by referencing Area-51 and all of its mysterious
attributes, this A.P. reporter lends further support to the
rumors and hearsay surrounding this installation, and deals
with... even acknowledges... the popular consensus that this
'mysterious' facility is gripped with potential scandal and
conspiracy.

I guess I'm nitpicking, but the 'conspiracy buff' and 'UFO
enthusiast' words used by Wagner, with all of their negative
implications, could very well be thrown back to her.

"Why mention this in your article?" one could ask Wagner, "if
you are not one of those conspiracy buffs or UFO enthusiasts
yourself?" After all, referencing 'UFOs and conspiracies' are
the things these Buffs and Enthusiasts like to do.

KY
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/task/





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             UFOR: Inexplicata - The Journal of Hispanic Ufology

From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 14:32:14 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 09:17:32 -0400
Subject: UFOR: Inexplicata - The Journal of Hispanic Ufology


From: Lornis@aol.com
Via: IUFO  Mailing List

Dear Friends,

Our website is finally up and running! Please visit us at
www.inexplicata.com to see the best that Latin America and
Spain's UFO and paranormal research has to offer.

Best regards,

Scott Corrales









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             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:22:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 09:15:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?


>Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 21:32:47 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

>>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:42:39 -0400
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>As far as creating agriglyphs is concerned, the technical
>>ability to beam power is much too "coarse" to create the find
>>designs in the fields. So even if there were some sort of power
>>beaming satellite it would not be able to draw pictures in th
>>fields. The best it could do would be to hold the center of the .>
>>beam at a fixed point on the earth's surface (to within some
>>error..... which would mean that the receiving area would
>>probably have to be up to 50% larger than the beam area).>


>What would happen if a sensor of some type were implanted in the
>field where the agriglyph was to be constructed, and the
>satellite beamed a signal to the sensor, thus triggering the
>creation of the glyph?.

>We know that microtechnology can create a complete computer
>circuit on the head of a pin, so why could they not also create
>the technology to do this?>

>Has anyone scanned the fields where these crop circles are
>formed for some type of electronic device in the ground?>>

>Just a thought.


Apparently your "just a thought" involves projecting a picture..
a "glyph" on the field...using some electronic device as an aid
to pointing the beam and "exposing" the grain all at once rather
than scanning a small spot around. This is sort of what
microlithography does, but at very small size and very small
power with very, very short wavelength light.

Problem is, the focal property of a lens or beam antenna to
focus a picture onto a surface is limited by the same
diffraction (growth of the beam) as is a single beam. Previously
we have seen that the smallest spot created by a space-based
microwave beam weapon or por source would be LARGE. Think of
this as the size of one "pixel" or picture element of a drawing.
This is a measure of the resolution of the projected picture. A
little more thinking shows that, aside from the extreme
complexity of creating a "picture projector" in space, the
smallest picture thus created would be many times larger than
the smallest spot the beam projector could make.

But so what... this discussion has gone far beyond reason. The
bottom line is there is no such thing up there, at 100 miles or
at 22,000 miles

So, do have another thought.... about something else.!.






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                           Re: Black Helicopters?

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:22:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 09:21:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Helicopters?


>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Black Helicopters?
>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:51:42 -0500

>So, if a person sees a "black," "unmarked" helicopter flying
>over their neighborhood, it is as likely flying a fresh supply
>of toilet paper to a suburban weekend warrior field training as
>doing anything sinister...  However, if you see a corporate
>marked bird circling over your house with an orthogonal pair of
>log periodic antennas pointed at your roof, pause to worry...

>Bye...  Ted..

Ha Ha Ha...  (gulp)
time to hide your stash!!!!






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                  Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:22:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 09:20:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: "Serge Salvaille" <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles
>Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 00:50:39 -0400

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:46:55 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Comments: Space-based microwaves & crop circles

<snip>

>>system of diameter "d" imaging a wavelength L is given by A =
>>1.22*L/d. Furthermore, "A" is also the size of the element you
>>are trying to resolve, call it "x" divided by the height "h"
>>that the satellite is above the ground, or A = x/h = 1.2*L/d.
>>From this, we can calculate that the minimal resolvable size on
>.>the ground is x = 1.22*Lh/d.

>>Now let's select some _optimal_ numbers for the variables to
>>give you the best possible resolution (again neglecting such
>>things as atmospheric turbulence which wreaks havoc with
.>telescope images, seriously degrading them). Suppose your spy .
>satellite is only 100 miles (160 km) up, about the lowest
>practical distance you can place it without it quickly being
>>dragged out of orbit by residual atmospheric friction. Suppose
>>further that "d" is equivalent to the largest current
>>space-based telescope, namely the Hubble telescope, with an
>>aperature of 60 inches or about 1 m in diameter. Now choose a
>>relatively short wavelength of light to again increase
.>resolution. Let L = 5 * 10^-7 m, the wavelength of blue-green .
>light.

><snip>

>David,

>For the fun of it:

>From:
>http://www.coseti.org/9008-065.htm

>Hubble has

>Primary Mirror Diameter = 2.4 m (89 inches)
>Angular Resolution (500 nm) = 0.043 arcsecond
>Pointing Accuracy = 0.012 arcsecond

>From:
>http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/hst/QA/Definitions/Arcsecond_defined.1

>We get that:

>.043 arcsecond = 1.194 * 10^-5 deg
>ResolutionFactor = sin(.043 arcsecond) = 2.085 * 10^-7>

>Resolution at 100 miles . . .

>ResolutionFactor * 160 000 m = 33 cm = 1.375 inches

>You'll probably be able to read the newspaper headers when
>McGuire hits 62nd.>

>Nice view,

>Serge


Poor Dave-and-not-Doug Rudiak seems to be taking some hits from
people who marginally know what they are discussing.

In this case, although it is true that the Hubble would provide
a great view in outer space (note the above calculation should
say 3.3 cm, not 33 cm), there is one thing not in th above
estimate of visual resolution not accounted for here... AIR!
(including HOT "A.I.R.") .

The atmosphere is why the Hubble is over 100 miles up and not on
the earth (where there are already much bigger telescopes, but
which can't get the non-atmosphere-affected view of the Hubble).
Now, in the previous discussion of microwave beaming the
atmosphere would probably have little effect in increasing the
beam size.  However in the present discussion of visible light
the atmosphere does cause beam "aberration" or spreading.






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:03:43 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 09:28:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 19:34:36 +0200
>From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>Hi guys,

<snip>

>What do we do with the accounts of bodies? Should we believe the
>ludicrous test-dummy explanation the USAF wants us to buy? Or
>should we go and simply dismiss these stories? Or were the
>Mogul-balloons occupied by Top Secret Children ;-)

>Seems to me the 'mogul-theory' lacks to answer these few rather
>important points...

>Andy.


What _do_ we do with the accounts of bodies?

Seems to me you ought to go back and critically re-examine the
issue of how they got introduced into the Roswell equation in
the first place. Certainly Marcel never mentioned seeing bodies,
nor did Brazel.

Gerald Anderson mentioned bodies at the site and he's been
thoroughly discredited in the interval. Glenn Dennis mentioned
bodies, and as far as I'm concerned, his credibility is zero,
too.

The Air Force didn't ask you to buy anything. Giving people like
Anderson, Dennis, Kaufmann and others the benefit of the doubt
(without calling them outright liars, for which they might have
been sued), the Air Force simply tried to supply a scenario
which might explain their accounts.

In short, there is no credible evidence that bodies were
retrieved at Roswell, period.

Dennis







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             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 22:40:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 10:38:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

At 10:50 AM 9/5/98 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 07:43:02 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

>>Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 21:32:47 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

><snip>

>>Has anyone scanned the fields where these crop circles are
>>formed for some type of electronic device in the ground?

>Researchers have used various types of equipment, and often do
>note magnetic, electronic, and sometimes accoustical anomalies
>within the formations. On many occasion this equipment fails to
>work within the formation, and the researchers are unable to
>obtain readings. No devices or sensors have ever been
>discovered. Bear in mind one detail that distinguishes the
>authentic formations from the hoaxes; the lack of _any_ physical
>contact with the plants, or the soil that supports them. If
>someone had planted any sort of sensor or device, it should be
>evident that the ground had been tampered with, unless it was
>planted some time after the last tilling but before plant
>maturity.

>And we are still left with the problem of generating sufficient
>energy to produce the effects to the crops.

>Greg

This will always be a kink in our ideas, until we can determine
how this power sufficient enough to product these effects can
be generated.

I know there are several researchers which are working with
the "N-Machine," which is more or less a machine which inputs
a small amount of energy and outputs a great quanity.

I don't know how it is done, but someone seems to be working
on developing it.

REgards, Mike






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                    Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 22:15:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 10:35:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?


>Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 11:45:57 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?

>>Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 18:44:11 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Bruce Maccabee & The AIR Report?

><snip>

>I'd like to see how the newspaper phrased it, but I believe
>there are factors beyond the scope of optics that would prevent
>the ability to read newsprint from orbit.  Although, I'm also
>sure that the capabilities of surveilance cameras used in space
>are far more sophisticated than have been acknowledged.

>Given the time period you indicate, this could well have been a
>bit of misinformation that was targetted at the Soviet Bloc to
>convince them that our capabilities were far in advance of their
>own.

>Steve

That is indeed a possibility Steve. I realize that so much of
the information displayed in the news media in those days were
for the two fold purpose of sending the Soviets misinformation
and to some extent the American people also.

As an open society, they had to inform the public of what was
was happening in order to justify the cost of the space program.
The military program was black listed from the public under the
guise of National Security. We know they have used NASA's launch
vehicles to send spy satellites into space...the shuttle has
delivered many military packages...in fact, some of the shuttle
flights were strictly military and although the launch was
televised, the payload was not disclosed.

I will continue my search for the newspaper article...if I can
find it, I will post it here, definitely.

REgards, Mike








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                  Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 22:27:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 10:37:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles

>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: "Serge Salvaille" <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles
>Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 00:50:39 -0400

><snip>

>David,

>For the fun of it:

>From:
>http://www.coseti.org/9008-065.htm

>Hubble has
>Primary Mirror Diameter = 2.4 m (89 inches)
>Angular Resolution (500 nm) = 0.043 arcsecond
>Pointing Accuracy = 0.012 arcsecond

>From:
>http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/hst/QA/Definitions/Arcsecond_defined.1

>We get that:

>.043 arcsecond = 1.194 * 10^-5 deg
>ResolutionFactor = sin(.043 arcsecond) = 2.085 * 10^-7
>
>Resolution at 100 miles . . .

>ResolutionFactor * 160 000 m = 33 cm = 1.375 inches

>You'll probably be able to read the newspaper headers when
>McGuire hits 62nd.

>Nice view,

Alright Serge!!! <g> You will probably be able to read them
from the shuttle (if it were flying at the time) with a pair
of binoculears!!! Ha, ha, ha...

REgards, Mike






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                            Re: E.T., E-Mail Home

From: Michel M. Deschamps <739411@ican.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 01:25:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 11:36:29 -0400
Subject: Re: E.T., E-Mail Home


> From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> To: updates@globalserve.net
> Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: E.T., E-Mail Home
> Date: Saturday, September 05, 1998 11:07 AM

> Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 05:49:59 -0700
> From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> Subject: in defense of SETI


> >From: Michel M. Deschamps <739411@ican.net>
> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> >Subject: Re: E.T., E-Mail Home
> >Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 01:16:12 -0400

> Dear Michel Deschamps:

> I both agree and disagree with your statements below. Please see
> my 14 centimes worth, inserted as comments.....

> >>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
> >>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 20:11:05 +0200
> >>Source: Intellectual Capital

> >>http://www.intellectualcapital.com/issues/98/0903/icsmart.asp

> >>E.T., E-mail Home by Elias Crim

> >>September 3, 1998

> <snip>

> >.. be sure to add your opinion.

> <snip>

As usual, I must not have expressed myself clearly enough. I was
saying that the folks at SETI think these beings, no matter how
much advanced they might be, would use radio signals (or any
kind of signals for that matter) to communicate with anyone.
This is completely ridiculous. I don't think, for one minute,
that the EBEs would be using radio signals if they've already
"mastered" space travel.

Now, given the probability that someone out there, who is as
young or younger than we are, makes the right discoveries, such
as radio waves and so on, _They_ might develop technology for
transmitting radio signals. And if they've just reached that
goal, then perhaps they have not yet "mastered" space
travel...in essence, preventing them from coming here and being
spotted by a passer-by.

SETI also thinks that intelligent extraterrestrials do not
resemble us in any way. They have said that creatures from other
planets would likely be exotic in appearance, perhaps resembling
some of the things we see in Science Fiction movies. If that's
true, how could a creature with tentacles, for example, build a
transmitter containing delicate parts?

But then again, a few of the creatures observed by witnesses
were highly unsual in appearance. So there's only so much that
can be said for that. But for the most part, the beings that
were seen had a head, two arms, two legs, and a body. Sometimes
wearing a uniform with a backpack. Sometimes a jumpsuit.
Sometimes, no clothes of any kind.

With all this information I'm mentioning, I think the time has
come for a group of people to get together and create an
internet database for each aspect of the UFO phenomena: one for
landing traces, with photos; another for EBEs, with sketches and
photos of footprints, when possible; one for all UFO pictures
found to be genuine; a database for crop circle patterns that
have been found to defy any rational explanation, and so on.
That way, every fact would be at everyone's fingertips. You've
already weeded out a lot of crap when you created the U
database. There are so many cases of Occupant sightings that I
feel it's time it was offered to the public in a responsible
fashion, allowing them to view the evidence of landings and
face to face contact and decide for themselves.

Michel M. Deschamps
UFO Researcher/Historian
739411@ican.net

----------






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                            Gulf War UFOs Request

From: David Baker <davbak@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 13:04:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 22:52:27 -0400
Subject: Gulf War UFOs Request


Dear all,

Does anyone have any cases of UFOs reported by troops during the
Gulf War?

After a recent appearance on a radio phone-in, I have received
one such case of a UFO "buzzing" troops just across the Saudi
border. It's in it's infancy, but initially it sounds
impressive.

If anyone out there can help, or is interested in the case,
contact me privately.

I thank yew-

Dave Baker,
Yorkshire UFO Society
- davbak@globalnet.co.uk







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                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 06:35:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 22:50:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 09:34:55 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>>Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 17:56:51 -0500
>>From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

><snip>

Steven,

I hope this replay clarify my intention to provide all of you
with enough material regarding some procedures that I guess
should be done to discover a hoaxed video film or photograph.

BTW Steve, you 'sniped' my post where I clearly explained
this...

>>Another notation, if you film and follow a body in movement with
>>any COMMON filming device the adjacent static objects should
>>appear as blurred or deformed ,(tape and camera speed must be
>>considered).

To complete my post of the above sniped text it says ..

>>The film should be processed under rigorously controlled
>>conditions (if it has not already been processed commercially).
>>If the camera is available but empty, the same operations should
>>be conducted wit a film of the same type as the original.

>What film? I've seen no comments to indicate that this was a
>"film", but was video taped with a hand-held Camcorder.

I understand that you haven't seen another facts. The term
'video filming' is commonly used by many professional video
editors and processing center units. A video filming device same
as the CCD video camera that was used in the Mexico's City UFO
video.

Here are some examples to support my exposition, comments are
welcome:

------

Source: http://www.prdvideo.com/

Welcome to PRD Video Projects Web Site! We are a Specialist
Video Production company that provides professional video
filming using Betacam SP DV and SVHS 3CCD Cameras. Video post
production and special effects

-----

Source:http://www.prdvideo.com/services.html

Filming Reel Life Video provides professional video filming
using DV 3CCD cameras, including multi-source sound recording
and lighting.

-----------

Source: http://www.sages.org/sg_vidguide.html

Sages Video Production Guidelines

<snip>

Videotape Format

The highest quality videotape format is recommended when filming
the original raw footage, such as U-matic (3/4 inch tape),
Betacam, S-VHS, High-8 mm. VHS and 8 mm are also acceptable but
are somewhat lower in quality. Original footage should not be
recorded on long play (LP) or extended long play (EP) modes.

<snip>

-----------

Here you'll see how the technology used in the CCD hand held
camera allows the possibility that a hoax exist.

This is from Cannon site:

Source: http://www.canon.co.uk/press/27_10_97d.htm

<snip>

Based on Canon's successful EX2 Hi video camera, the XL1
combines optical and imaging technologies unique to Canon in a
camcorder ideal for professional film makers demanding
portability and broadcast quality film whilst also appealing to
semi-professional and amateur enthusiasts requiring a wide range
of features alongside ease of use.

Digital image quality- 3CCD and Pixel Shift Technology Superb
picture quality results from using a larger light capturing area
foreach pixel to give higher sensitivity, higher signal noise
ratio and a greater dynamic range. In addition, stunningly clear
still images can be obtained from moving video action. <snip>

The last quote is essential to suspect that the Mexico City
Video images or frame pixels were shifted with this new CCD
technology, at least there is a possibility of a manipulation
technique.

>Of course, I could have been out sick the day it was announced.

>Steve

I wish you don't get sick again.

Regards,

Alex Franz
alcione.org






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                    Re: TNT UFO Special on September 13th

From: Keith Stevens <k.stevens@virgin.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 12:33:53 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 23:03:23 -0400
Subject: Re: TNT UFO Special on September 13th


>Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 17:22:18 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: TNT UFO Special on September 13th

>"Filer's Files" included reference to the upcoming UFO Special
>on Turner Network Television, which premieres on September 13th.
>A few details can be found at the TNT web site (ignore the cute
>intro):

>http://tnt.turner.com/kgb/

Any one heard if this is being aired on 'Brit TV'?







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                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 02:16:26 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 22:42:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage


>Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 17:10:27 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:42:25 -0700 (PDT)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

><snip>

>>Bruce or others,

>Because of the shutter speed change, the smearing was apparently
>difficult to detect. But Jeff and Bruce were able to compare
>the images frame by frame and found a number that showed the
>effect of smearing due to the hand held camera motion. In one
>comparison, a windsock (or small flag) on the roof of one of the
>buildings actually disappears in one frame, but the "craft" in
>the image shows no smearing in that same frame. As pointed out,
>unless the "craft" was able to move up and down in conjunction
>with the camera then it was likely added to the video at a later
>time, indicating that this was a hoax. One other video that
>Bruce showed was of the same scene generated by computer as part
>of a test, and it looked very convincing. These are, of course,
>only indicators. Unless someone comes forward to acknowledge
>this as a "hoax", it will likely remain a subject for debate.

>Steve


I have discovered something rather fantastic! Upon reading the
posts regarding rates of camera speed and degrees of
jitter-smearing, I then embarked to construct a test fixture in
my home laboratory. The camera pointed a sensor at a light
source in the dark. The camera was mounted on a movable table
programmed to go from stable to jitters of desired amplitude and
frequency. I began the protocol of operations. Early in the test
programme the most astounding and remarkable vision appeared in
the field of view of the camera. The smearing of the single
point of light became like a ray. At precisely 3cps the ray
smear created a perfect crop circle with a complexity beyond
human capabilities. Yes, before my very own eyes, with my
reading glasses on. The white point of light soon became a white
ray that coalesced into the most beautiful crop circle I ever
beheld. This occured at 3cps and only at 3cps.

It only lasted in my view 4 minutes and then dissapeared,
returning to a single point of white light. It was a sign, a
message that I can't decode or recall.

The videotape containing the vision and recorded test data has
been forwarded upcountry to a Mr.Raymond Santilli. Here at
Oxford we were informed that he was responsible for presenting
the (till now) singular most important UFO film, The Roswell
Alien Autopsy, a forensic marvel. We were also informed that Mr.
Santilli was highly revered for that magnificient discovery. We
were informed that significant ufoligists invoke his name as
often as we quote Shakespeare. Mr.Santilli will present the
video and the test data to the planet earth upon the ending of
further analysis.

No, I did not hoax the Mexico City video but I momentarily
created a crop circle in my most recent testing. I have stayed
glued to the video monitor, eating and sleeping before it but
the crop circle never has returned. I'll stay on post the
remainder of the year.

Joshin' you,
Josh Goldstein
MUFON dupe-LA <G>






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                           Re: Black Helicopters?

From: Keith Stevens <k.stevens@virgin.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 12:29:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 23:03:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Helicopters?


>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Black Helicopters?
>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:51:42 -0500

>Why do so many revel in their fantasies of what constitutes
>legal and illegal aircraft markings?

<snip>

>Many
>military planes are now marked in deep black on their dark grey
>surface. And, any dunce driving by a military airfield in the
>past few years would have to notice that more and more aircraft
>are giving up their camo schemes for some dark shade of grey.


May I be allowed a few moments of your time to clear up a few
points here.


I'm not really interested in what constitutes a legal/illegal
aircraft marking, just what markings a Helicopter does or does
not carry during an alleged Black Helo sighting. I personally do
not harbor any form of overt or covert fantasies regarding
them.I simply want the facts.

This particular 'Dunce' lives a fair number of miles from our
one and only RAF/Military Airfield, i.e. RAF Aldergrove. This
RAF Base has an extended perimeter, with roads in the area
closed to civilian traffic etc and, it is patrolled by the
Military. It is possible to carry out limited observation of the
Aircraft park from the adjacent Belfast International Airport,
closer examination is-not-recommended ;) I envy you your implied
freedom of observation.Some of us do not have that luxury, even
in a Democratic Society, remember that.

Based on local observation, the Green/Grey Camo' still is very
much in fashion.I am not sure what 'deep black' is, I was always
lead to believe that Black was/is Black. Once again I am only
interested in obtaining the facts regarding these alleged
sightings, if anyone would care to pass on to me there
experiences, I would be grateful.







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                  Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 14:15:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 23:22:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles


>Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:22:10 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: "Serge Salvaille" <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles
>>Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 00:50:39 -0400

>>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:46:55 EDT
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Comments: Space-based microwaves & crop circles


<snip>

>Poor Dave-and-not-Doug Rudiak seems to be taking some hits from
>people who marginally know what they are discussing.

>In this case, although it is true that the Hubble would provide
>a great view in outer space (note the above calculation should
>say 3.3 cm, not 33 cm), there is one thing not in th above
>estimate of visual resolution not accounted for here... AIR!
>(including HOT "A.I.R.") .

>The atmosphere is why the Hubble is over 100 miles up and not on
>the earth (where there are already much bigger telescopes, but
>which can't get the non-atmosphere-affected view of the Hubble).

<snip>

Bruce,

Being devoted to the democratization of knowledge, I will submit the
following.

From:

http://astrosun.tn.cornell.edu/courses/astro201/seeing.htm

"The seeing of an image should correspond to either the
diffraction limit or the atmospheric seeing, whichever is
greater.


From:

http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~jlotz/aoptics/node3.html

<snip>

"... r0 is the atmospheric coherence length or Fried parameter.
r0 is about 10 cm for a vertical path for visible wavelength and
characterizes the effect of turbulence on the incoming
wavefront."

<snip>

" The diffraction limit of resolution for 4m (D aperture)
telescope at 500 nm (Wavelength) is given by equation 17:

        1.22 * Wavelength / D = 1.2 * 10 ^-7 rad"

(This is a mistake: the result should be 1.525 * 10 ^-7 rad.)

Assuming , the angular resolution due to atmospheric turbulence
R is

        2.1 * Wavelength / r0 = 2.1 * .0000005 / .10 = 10^-5 rad

So turbulence in this case degrades the resolution by a factor
of 100!"


In the case of the Hubble telescope, we should get:

        Resolution = 1.22 * .0000005 / 2.4 = 2.54 * 10^-7 rad

        160 000 m. * sin (Resolution) = .0407 m = 1.7 inches
        resolution at 100 miles in SPACE.

Of course, on the ground, we always have the 10^-5 rad
turbulence-dependent resolution.

        160 000 m. * sin (10^-5 rad) = 1.6 m = 4.9 feet GROUND
        resolution at 100 miles.

Which means that, at 100 miles from SPACE, you can barely see a
car in a parking lot.

This is science.  But is it true ?

Enjoy,


Serge Salvaille









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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Phot

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 98 14:22:12 PDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 23:27:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Phot


>Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:03:43 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 19:34:36 +0200
>>From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>What _do_ we do with the accounts of bodies?

>Seems to me you ought to go back and critically re-examine the
>issue of how they got introduced into the Roswell equation in
>the first place. Certainly Marcel never mentioned seeing bodies,
>nor did Brazel.

>Gerald Anderson mentioned bodies at the site and he's been
>thoroughly discredited in the interval. Glenn Dennis mentioned
>bodies, and as far as I'm concerned, his credibility is zero,
>too.

>The Air Force didn't ask you to buy anything. Giving people like
>Anderson, Dennis, Kaufmann and others the benefit of the doubt
>(without calling them outright liars, for which they might have
>been sued), the Air Force simply tried to supply a scenario
>which might explain their accounts.

Let's see here. I want to be sure I've got this straight:

Gerald Anderson and Glenn Dennis are "outright liars," but it's
okay anyway for the Air Force to use their testimony to bolster
its absurd explanation for the bodies. Their testimony is bogus,
irrelevant, and useless only when it refers to _Alien_ bodies.

>In short, there is no credible evidence that bodies were
>retrieved at Roswell, period.

I don't think that's the point you've made, Dennis. The point
you've just made is that there is no credible evidence that
bodies of crash-test dummies were recovered at Roswell. Period.

Cheers,

Jerry Clark








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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: John <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 11:33:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 23:15:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:03:43 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 19:34:36 +0200
>>From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Hi guys,

><snip>

>>What do we do with the accounts of bodies? Should we believe the
>>ludicrous test-dummy explanation the USAF wants us to buy? Or
>>should we go and simply dismiss these stories? Or were the
>>Mogul-balloons occupied by Top Secret Children ;-)

>>Seems to me the 'mogul-theory' lacks to answer these few rather
>>important points...

>>Andy.


>What _do_ we do with the accounts of bodies?

<snip>

>In short, there is no credible evidence that bodies were
>retrieved at Roswell, period.

>Dennis

Which brings everyone right back to; -then WHY 'explain' them!-

Tag! You're it! <G>

John Velez, ;-)

________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
________________________________________________






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 17:49:43 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 23:18:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:03:43 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 19:34:36 +0200
>>From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Hi guys,

><snip>

>>What do we do with the accounts of bodies? Should we believe the
>>ludicrous test-dummy explanation the USAF wants us to buy? Or
>>should we go and simply dismiss these stories? Or were the
>>Mogul-balloons occupied by Top Secret Children ;-)

>>Seems to me the 'mogul-theory' lacks to answer these few rather
>>important points...

>>Andy.

>What _do_ we do with the accounts of bodies?

>Seems to me you ought to go back and critically re-examine the
>issue of how they got introduced into the Roswell equation in
>the first place. Certainly Marcel never mentioned seeing bodies,
>nor did Brazel.

I never claimed they did,

<snip>

>The Air Force didn't ask you to buy anything. Giving people like
>Anderson, Dennis, Kaufmann and others the benefit of the doubt
>(without calling them outright liars, for which they might have
>been sued), the Air Force simply tried to supply a scenario
>which might explain their accounts.

Come on now... the good ol' USAF was so nice to find an
explanation,please!

You almost make them look too kind, you forget to mention
however that that same Air Force is the one covering up the
entire incident, so one could argue that the explanations given
by them are explaining the incident _away_  rather than simply
explaining them. Why are all those people not credible ?

>In short, there is no credible evidence that bodies were
>retrieved at Roswell, period.

You of course mean in _your_ book there is no credible
evidence...

Andy Denne
A.U.R.A.






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 15:42:10 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 23:30:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
>Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 19:34:36 +0200
>Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 18:08:24 -0400
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

<snip>

>What do we do with the accounts of bodies? Should we believe the
>ludicrous test-dummy explanation the USAF wants us to buy? Or
>should we go and simply dismiss these stories? Or were the
>Mogul-balloons occupied by Top Secret Children ;-)

Hello, Andy Denne and list:

Very good questions! Perhaps the experienced eyes on this list
can come up with an answer: When, exactly, and where, did the
accounts of bodies first begin to surface for Roswell?

Clear skies,
Bob Young.








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                            Alfred's Odd Ode #269

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 12:54:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 23:24:45 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #269


Apology to MW #269 (For September 6, 1998)

I write _without_ apology; s'what makes them so ironic, and I
_wallow- in this irony of life I find a tonic. My interests may
be bothersome -- unpleasant, un-benign -- to throw the light
where it won't go, and cop to what we find. UFO's are in the
news in fits and starts -- pretensions; I should think my
interest healthy, and allay your apprehensions. But then the
_implications_ are apparent, and they raise their mottled heads.
And most would rather _die_ then switch, and shoot their foot
instead. They'd live in floating castles just to keep their
dream alive, given by the shadows that are handed down
contrived. The damage is disruption of the few that make
connection, so they won't get together and demand a SANE
detection.

I had a friend till recently; he wrote a note and called it off.
He said, "Now get behind me Satan, you make the ground too soft.
Foundations are a crumble, and my livelihood is threatened,
you've threatened, too, my wife and child -- distracted with
your legends. You've jeopardized employment. You've compromised
my life. You've set me up for failure. You write a script for
strife"!

I knew he couldn't help it. I know condition squeezed him hard.
I know that he can't mean it -- not a button, part, or shard. I
was amazed at my dismissal, a little hurt -- you want the truth,
for he is but a casualty of the ones that stand aloof.

You know the *ones* of whom I speak. The ones that have his
answers! The ones that should allay his fear, and cure their
lying cancers! The ones that threaten needlessly; the ones so
rife with guilt! The ones that hide intentions like a knife
shoved to its hilt! The one's that slide away, so well, while
sitting on his back! The ones that will, so quickly, let him
fall between their cracks! The ones that persecute him for the
reasons that they hide! The ones allowing punishment for
conditions they contrive! The ones that hide the UFO's so deeply
in the Earth; the ones that keep the secrets, and, so, _are_ (in
fact) truth's dearth.

I will mourn his contribution that's now lost in all the mist, I
will mourn the conversation that was once so smart and brisk.
I'll feel like a loser that might end up without friends, and
will they fall, then, one by one until my inquest ends? And what
of  I; will I succumb; will I give up the ship? When, finally,
I'm pressed _his_ way -- by wife and job or shit! Will I change
my phone and E-mail? Will I shut my web site down? Will I sigh
and vote republican -- let my smile morph to frowns? Will I
re-glue scabrous scales that had fallen from my eyes, will I
give in, and then embrace what, now, I must despise?

And that's the real reason, I imagine, that I mourn. My friend
is ME, and he goes down as I must -- that's forlorn. He's proof
that they are winning (the ones I writ above). They ape
marauding raptors, and he's the hapless dove.  He metaphors the
powerless. He is, then, you and me. He needs his home, and wife
and kids. He needs his job, so he's not free.

I'm consumed with my resentment at a system so capricious that
it's allowed to stifle all the questions that beseech us. I'm
enraged that these conspirators are allowed the awful power so
destructive to relationships that hammer at their towers!  I'm
angry that they CHOOSE MY FRIENDS, or make them run away, or
provoke them to forsake me -- these are _shadows_ in my day.

So I'll wallow in my ironies -- they're a valid tonic still.
I'll use their satisfactions, and it's with them I'm fulfilled.
I'll borrow from Will Shakespeare, and to myself be true, apply
my OWN philosophy that it all comes down to *you*.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

"You" is, of course, a metaphor for the individual. It is the
individual that is the real power, and why 'they' work so hard
to program, coerce and control. They use any slimy trick in
their fearsome bag of dirty deeds. They strike at foundations
they've _made_ vulnerable in their campaign of corrosive control.
Fear, censure and intimidation are their tools, and these are
used without regard to the rules they demand everyone _else_
follow. There is no fair play on a level playing field. If there
was they'd disappear.

Society, as it stands, is an illusion maintained by each
individual in it. All I'm saying is we could have _better_
illusions -- better dreams. Dreams that look out and in -- never
down. Dreams, finally, that don't cost me efficacious friends.

I'll miss your charm, wit, and courage -- buddy.

Restore John Ford.

--
Explore the Alien View? <Updated 4 September>

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake; at the last -- forsaken and alone.








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   Sep > Sep 6

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 10:44:27 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 23:13:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:03:43 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 19:34:36 +0200
>>From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Hi guys,

><snip>

>>What do we do with the accounts of bodies? Should we believe the
>>ludicrous test-dummy explanation the USAF wants us to buy? Or
>>should we go and simply dismiss these stories? Or were the
>>Mogul-balloons occupied by Top Secret Children ;-)

>>Seems to me the 'mogul-theory' lacks to answer these few rather
>>important points...

>>Andy.


>What _do_ we do with the accounts of bodies?

>Seems to me you ought to go back and critically re-examine the
>issue of how they got introduced into the Roswell equation in
>the first place. Certainly Marcel never mentioned seeing bodies,
>nor did Brazel.

>Gerald Anderson mentioned bodies at the site and he's been
>thoroughly discredited in the interval. Glenn Dennis mentioned
>bodies, and as far as I'm concerned, his credibility is zero,
>too.

>The Air Force didn't ask you to buy anything. Giving people like
>Anderson, Dennis, Kaufmann and others the benefit of the doubt
>(without calling them outright liars, for which they might have
>been sued), the Air Force simply tried to supply a scenario
>which might explain their accounts.

>In short, there is no credible evidence that bodies were
>retrieved at Roswell, period.

>Dennis


Dennis,

I assume, then, that you do not believe the story that
Brazel was supposed to have said when someone mentioned
little green men, "but they weren't green."

I think the Air Force gave away their hand when they tried
to explain bodies at all.  Personally, I take this as a
tacit admission that bodies, or something resembling bodies,
did turn up at the crash site.

To each his own.

Bob








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                   Re: Triangular UFOs Also In Dutch Skies

From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl>
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 23:14:50 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 23:56:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Triangular UFOs Also In Dutch Skies


Here is some more information about the Dutch triangular UFOs.

The Dutch UFO research group UFO Werkgroep Nederland is now
investigating UFO reports above it's residence Enschede.

The reports of triangular shaped UFOs is not new in this area.
20 percent of all UFO-reports has something to do with
triangular craft.

There are now more witnesses found that saw the UFOs on August
the 12th. All of them saw the objects in the evening at 11.00,
11.15 and about 11.45 h.  The discription by the witnesses of
the  first sighting was that the they saw three lights in a
triangle.

During the second (11.15h) sighting the three lights were moving
and later (seen by one of the witnesses) moving around each
other. During the third sighting the three lights were again in
a triangular shape. There was no sound.

The researchers of the UFO-Werkgroep Nederland are now trying to
find more witnesses.

The Dutch MUFON reported me about a triangular UFO above
Purmerend also in August.

I hope they can give UFO UpDates more information about that.


Jeroen Kumeling,

UFO-Werkgroep Nederland
ufonet@xs4all.nl
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ufonet
Postbus 2191,
7500 CD Enschede,
Netherlands
tel/fax: +31 74 2425514
UFO-HOTLINE: +31 53 4310412

Maybe interesting : 5 km north of Enschede there is a military
airport.







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   Sep > Sep 7

                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 23:39:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 00:38:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage


>Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 02:16:26 -0800
>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>I have discovered something rather fantastic! Upon reading the
>posts regarding rates of camera speed and degrees of
>jitter-smearing, I then embarked to construct a test fixture in
>my home laboratory. The camera pointed a sensor at a light
>source in the dark. The camera was mounted on a movable table
>programmed to go from stable to jitters of desired amplitude and
>frequency. I began the protocol of operations. Early in the test
>programme the most astounding and remarkable vision appeared in
t>he field of view of the camera. The smearing of the single
>point of light became like a ray. At precisely 3cps the ray
>smear created a perfect crop circle with a complexity beyond
>human capabilities. Yes, before my very own eyes, with my
>reading glasses on. The white point of light soon became a white
>ray that coalesced into the most beautiful crop circle I ever
>beheld. This occured at 3cps and only at 3cps.


If in fact you did create a "shaker table" (probably not too
hard to if you couple a mechanism to a powerful "woofer" type
speak and drive it with a very low frequency high power signal
source, and if you did in fact cause a pattern on the video at 3
Hz, then what probably happened is that you "hit" a resonance in
which horizontal and vertical vibrations occur simultaneously
making a 2 dimensional pattern.

Many (too many) years ago I actually got a patent on a little
device to be attached to a loudspeaker cone which was a
reflector of a (red) laser beam. As a sound wave was driving the
speaker cone the mirror on its special mount would creat large
angle patterns of reflected laser light on a wall.

If the camera were vibrated (not to roughly) it seems
conceivable that some mechanical oscillation, perhaps inside the
camera, could cause a distant "point" of light to create a
pattern.

On the other hand, you might do even better if you put you
camera in a field of grain somewhere and waited until an
agri-glyph  (crop circle) is created there.

I understand that the creation of such a thing is an "earth
shaking" experience, so maybe it would create great patterns in
your video camera.






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   Sep > Sep 7

                    Re: The Antonio Villas Boas Abduction

From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <pharaoh@web2000.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 19:28:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 00:04:27 -0400
Subject: Re: The Antonio Villas Boas Abduction


Greeting, List,

Next October 15 is the forty first anniversary of the Antonio
Villas Boas abduction in Brazil. The first abductee to report a
physical sexual event. We bring this case up because the subject
was never contacted by telepathic means, nor was he paralyzed;
contrary of what is happening in today abductions.(Illustrated
with Photo and Sketches).

Also, we could like to share with you some unknown or little
known UFO cases we investigated with the late Dr. Allen Hynek:
Filiberto Cardena's Case (Miami), William Ortiz's Case
(Colombia), Ricardo's Saga (Argentina)

Visit our newsletter Web Page MIAMI UFO REPORTER at:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center

"When the solution to the UFO puzzle comes, I think it will
prove not to be just a step in the march of science, but a
mighty and unexpected quantum jump". Dr. J. Allen Hynek





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   Sep > Sep 7

                 Re: Donald E. Keyhoe Journalism Competition

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 20:35:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 00:07:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Donald E. Keyhoe Journalism Competition

(Please feel free to distribute to your local media)

PRESS ADVISORY (For Release September 8, 1998)

September 8, 1998


Donald E. Keyhoe Journalism Competition


For the 10th consecutive year, the Fund for UFO Research, Inc.,
is conducting a journalism competition named for the late
aviation and UFO writer, Maj. Donald E. Keyhoe, (USMC, Ret.)

Traditionally, prize money of at least $1,000 is awarded. It
may be split into Print and Electronic Media divisions,
depending on the number and quality of entries.

The purpose of the competition is to encourage mainstream
writers and reporters to contribute to the public understanding
of the UFO phenomenon. The author's point of view is not taken
into consideration.

The competition covers stories published or aired during the
calendar year 1998.  The deadline for entries is February 15,
1999.

For more information and an entry form, contact the Fund for UFO
Research, Inc., P.O. Box 277, Mt. Rainier, MD 20712  Tel/Fax
(703) 684-6032.






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                            Re: Physical Evidence

From: Greg St. Pierrre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 21:37:26 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 00:16:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Physical Evidence


Dear list,

I found the following at:

http://cropcircleconnector.com/1998/cherhill98.html

-----

It seems to be yet another piece of interesting physical
evidence that pictograms are not created by people.

>snip<


On Friday July 17 1998 I discovered many dead flies in one of
the most interesting formations (in my opinion anyway): the tiny
random looking Cherhill formation in the field directly below
the White Horse. The first time I was in that formation I sat
down in one of the little circles. I saw many little black
flies, sitting on the standing stems in the centre of the
circle.

When I looked more carefully, I noticed that they were dead. It
amazed me, so I looked closer and noticed the flies were all
stuck to the plants with their tongue, as if they had been
sucking some fluid out of the plants after which they died. I
looked for more and I found them easily; they were all over the
formation, but mainly in the standing stems in the circles�
centres and in the circles� perimeters. There was another
interesting feature: most of the flies had stretched their legs
and wings as if they died in chock. Furthermore I found flies
that seem to be blown up: they were totally dried out and torn
apart. Almost like a variation on blown nodes: blown flies...
Were they killed when the formation was actually formed?

Moreover I discovered some flies that were still alive but
obviously dying; their tongues were also stuck to the plants and
in some cases I managed to pull them off the plants. They stayed
on my hand as if drugged, but recovered after about ten minutes
and flied away. Some flies were dying but so very stuck to the
plants that I could�t pull them off the plants without ripping
their tongues out, so I left them there.

I really don�t know what to think of all this. The flies only
appeared in the formation, not outside, except in places where
there was a lot of wind damage and where new details had been
added later to the formation. (We�have visited the formation
several times now and more details keep popping up; the energies
seemed to have touched most of the field).

We also found dead flies in the Seven Blade formation at
Stockbridge and the Double Pentagram north of Oxford. The
characteristics were the same: we found them only in the
formation, mainly on standing stems and in the perimeter. I
walked through the tramlines for miles, up and down the fields,
to see if the flies could be found outside the formation also,
but in vain, which makes it hard to believe it�s just pesticides
that caused this, unless maybe the energies did something really
strong with the pesticides.

What caused it I don�t know. Did this happen to give us a new
lead? Or was it always part of the formations and were we just
never really perceptive?

I took many samples that will be sent to Dr. Levengood and to a
Dutch lab. Naturally as soon as something comes out of that
research, it�ll directly appear on the Connector.







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                  Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles

From: Greg St. Pierrre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 20:56:39 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 00:14:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles

>Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 23:26:05 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles


>I won't even try to argue or rebut the following discourse.

A bit late for that, don't you think?

>I am not a Physicist, and don't claim to be. I am simply a UFO
>Investigator, who has been studying this phenomena since the
>late 1950's.

You may not be a physicist, but as a (self proclaimed) UFO
investigator, you should have some knowledge of basic physics,
among other things, if you ever hope to be able to distinguish
between the mundane and the unusual. If you don't care about the
methods and knowledge used to distinguish between the two, then
IMO you shouldn't be a UFO investigator, because you can't
determine what is identifiable and what is not, especially if
you answer each strange report with "Obviously some kind of
military vehicle."

>I am not impressed with the present application of physics in
>these messages. It simply implys to me that someone wants to
>impress us with their knowledge of physics and higher
>mathmatics. I am not nor do I have an interest in such a
>display.

No one is trying to impress you. Do you always react that way
when confronted by someone more knowledgeable than you? I for
one am glad that Mr. Rudiak spoke up. He simply presented some
good reasons why satellites are not likely to be the culprits
behind the crop circle phenomenon. IMO, everyone on this list
has opinions. Occasionally we venture them at some risk. If you
don't want a pet theory of yours to get "beaten up" then don't
stick it out. If you don't mind, then prepare to defend your
position with information or reasonably good data. If you can't
defend it adequately, you lose.

>In fact, I am not "adding to the UFO Lore," but removing UFOs
>from the equasion.

If you are removing UFOs from the "equasion", then why are you a
UFO investigator? They have not removed us from the equation,
I'm happy to observe. New reports come in every day.

>Why is it that it is more likely that E.T.'s,
>cross the Universe or jump through time and dimension, and let
>us know they are here by creating crop glyphs. I don't think so.
>I don't know how they are being created, apart from the human
>factor. Show me the Alien...show me the Alien...show me the
>Alien...

And why is it that you automatically assume I believe that
aliens are producing crop circles simply because I mentioned a
possible connection between UFOs and sightings of them near crop
circles? Did I say aliens?

>You mean like possibly flight 800? or the Swiss MD11 which just
>crashed? I don't want you to assume that I am saying that US
>Satellites had anything to do with their crashes, I am just
>asking a question in response to your quotation above.

I think Mr. Rudiak meant if these sorts of crashes happened
frequently near the sites of numerous crop circles, then someone
might begin looking for an orbital source, especially if no
other explanation could be found.

>...and what appears
>to have been an Anthrax virus or nerve gas which apparently
>infected and has been responsible for about 15,000 deaths and
>illinesses of those soilders in the 1990 Gulf War. I am not the
>source of this Information...It can indeed be checked out if one
>wants to find it hard enough. One of the Doctors whose own
>daughter served there and contracted the sickness, treated her
>and then started treating others who came to him. No, the US
>Military wouldn't test their technology on the public or in
>populated areas...<sigh>

I have little doubt that soldiers in the Gulf War were exposed
to something nasty, and that the US government is reluctant to
admit it. However, it's source was not the US military, it was
Iraq. I am sympathetic towards the Gulf War veterans, but they
were not "the public", they were military, and they were at war.
This may come as a shock to you, but there is some degree of
personal risk to joining the military and going to war. It's not
all 'college funds' and patriotic music.

>But, I do have a problem
>with those who automatically give credit to an alleged ET
>civilization, which has not yet been proven to exist. So, if
>there is no ET civilization coming here and performing all these
>feats, then jut who the heck is?

In one breath, you admit that ET civilizations have not been
"proven to exist". In the next, you say there is "no ET
civilization coming here". Have you proven the latter? Guess we
can all go home now...show's over.

Or is it?

Greg






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                      UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 36

From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:50:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 08:31:45 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 36


UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 3, Number 36
September 6, 1998
Editor: Joseph Trainor

STRANGE POWER FAILURE
DOOMED SWISS JETLINER

     Officials believe a catastrophic electrical failure was
responsible for the crash of Swissair Flight SR111 off
the coast of Nova Scotia.  The crash on Wednesday,
September 2, 1998, killed all 229 people aboard.
     Flight 111 took off from New York City's John F.
Kennedy International Airport at 8:18 p.m., bound for
Geneva.  Aboard the McDonnel Douglas MD11 jetliner
were 215 passengers and 14 crew.  At the controls
were pilot Urs Zimmerman, 50, and copilot Stephen
Loew, 36.  Both men were veterans of Switzerland's
air force with hundreds of hours of flight time experience.
     At 9:14 p.m., Zimmerman radioed Canadian air
traffic control, saying "Pan, pan, pan!"   He then told
controllers that there was smoke in the jetliner's cabin
and asked for permission to turn back and land at
Logan International Airport in Boston, Massachusetts.
(Editor's Note: Pan is an aviation code word for an
inflight emergency.  It's derived from the French word
panne, meaning "breakdown.")
     Air traffic control instructed Zimmerman to proceed
north to Halifax International Airport in Nova Scotia,
Canada, a destination much closer.
     At 9:20 p.m., Flight 111 began its descent from
30,000 feet, starting its final approach into Halifax,
50 miles (80 kilometers) to the north.
     "The 229 people aboard Swissair Flight 111 spent
the last 16 minutes of their lives struggling with life
jackets and choking on the smoke that filled the
crippled plane as it shuddered over Canada's rugged
Atlantic coast."
     "The pilots struggled to keep control of the
plane, aiming for an emergency landing in Halifax...
'Ten minutes more and the aircraft would have
landed,' said Philippe Bruggisser, chief executive of
SAirGroup, Swissair's parent company."  (See the
New York Daily News for Friday, September 4, 1998,
"Jet fell minutes short of Halifax," page 3)
     Air traffic controllers at Moncton, New Brunswick
gave Zimmerman a private radio channel for use during
the emergency.  Flight 111 then jettisoned its reserve
fuel over St. Margaret's Bay, south of Blandford, Nova
Scotia (N.S.)
     At 9:35 p.m., "at 8,000 feet, the plane disappears
from radar, and radio contact is lost."
     "Radio contact with Moncton was lost.  Controllers
were officially in the dark about the fate of Flight 111,
but they knew the chain of events they had 'witnessed'
could mean only one thing."
     "Meanwhile, in the tourist hamlet of Peggy's Cove,
Nova Scotia, perplexed residents rushed from their
homes after hearing sputtering noises from the low-
flying aircraft passing over them."
     "'The motors were still going, but it was the worst-
sounding deep groan that I've ever heard,' said Claudia
Zinck-Gilroy."
     "Eddie Boyle, a resident of the nearby town of
Blandford, said the plane was so low, he thought it was
a helicopter."
     "'The plane went right overhead.  It sounded terrible.
I joked that it sounded like a UFO because it was just
droning,' Boyle later recalled."
     "Then, just minutes after the flight had disappeared
from the radar screen, came the horrifying sound of a
crash in the pitch-black ocean."
     "'We knew it was an explosion; there was silence
for two seconds after the explosion, then my ears
popped,' said Darrell Fralick, 26, 'At that split second,
I looked at my watch.  It was 10:35 p.m.'  (9:35 p.m.
New York time)."  (See the New York Post for Friday,
September 4, 1998, "Final moments to death," page 3)
     "Isabel Hubley, 80, lives five minutes from the crash
site and helped local rescue teams locate where the
plane went down."
     "'I was sitting where I couldn't see out the window.
But I jumped and put my windows down.  I said, 'Holy
smoke, that didn't give me no warning.'  It sounded like
a big clap of thunder because it rattled the house."
(See the Boston, Mass. Herald for Friday, September 4,
1998, "Electrical failure," page 4)
     "'The crash could be from something as minor as an
overheated wire or something as major as a cargo fire,'
said Herb Armstrong, a former FAA air-traffic controller
and assistant dead of aviation at Dowling College."
     "He said that when a plane drops off the radar
screen like Flight 111 did, there's a '50-50' chance that
a power shortage caused it."
     "The Federal Aviation Administration cited faulty
wiring in the cockpit as a safety problem on the MD-11s
and ordered them replaced last year."
     "But Swissair officials yesterday said they abide
by FAA safety rules and replaced the wires on the
MD-11 jet on March 6 of last year."  (See the New York
Post for Friday, September 4, 1998, "Electrical power
failure likely cause of tragedy: experts." page 2)
     Over 100 soldiers of G Company, Canadian Armed
Forces, commanded by Maj. Bill Pond and based at
CFB Gagetown, New Brunswick, were brought to the
shore to search for victims' bodies.  "They formed lines
of up to seven abreast, looking intently downward and
moving slowly down the shore, filling at least a dozen
bags with debris...the 105-man G Company troop
combed the small stretch from Bayswater to Blandford,
the main focus of the land search."  (See the New York
Post for September 5, 1998, "Searchers find only horror
on one-peaceful Canada coast." page 9.)
     "As dawn broke yesterday (Friday) morning, the
200-foot submarine HMCS Okanagan began mapping the
150-foot depths with sonar, but the seach was suspended
late yesterday afternoon without a sign of the plane's
larger pieces or the so-called black boxes--the cockpit
voice recorded and the flight data recorder."  (See the
Boston, Mass. Herald for September 5, 1998, page 4)
     Among the victims were two scientists employed at
the Brookhaven National Laboratory in Shoreham,
Long Island, N.Y.
     Per Spanne, 53, was born in Sweden and resided
in Shoreham, N.Y.  Spanne "worked for the European
Synchrotron Radiation Facility in Grenoble, France."
He was also "a Brookhaven National Laboratory guest
researcher and pioneer in diagnostic X-rays and related
fields."
     Klaus Kinder-Geiger, 36, was born in Germany "and
worked at the Nuclear Theory Group at the Brookhaven
National Laboratory in Shoreham, N.Y."  (See USA Today
for September 4, 1998, "Crash Victims," page 3-A)
     The Brookhaven National Laboratory achieved notoriety
in 1994 when John Ford, then president of Long Island
UFO Network (LIUFON), claimed that crashed or retrieved
UFOs were being evaluated at the facility.

BLAZING BLUE FIREBALL
STREAKS OVER DETROIT

     On Friday, August 21, 1998, at 12:30 a.m., Mary B. was
at her home on the east side of Detroit (population 1,016,400),
Michigan's largest city, when she spotted a UFO.
     "I was looking straight up at the sky," Mary reported,
"Trying to catch some spiders for my fish--two big Oscars--
when I saw a large burning ball of light streak across the sky.
It was light blue on the outside turning to a small bright
orange color in the center and had a number of sparks
tumbling from it.  At first I thought it was a firework of some
kind, but it was very high and exhibited no sound.  It lasted
about four seconds.  I couldn't believe that I had been
looking straight up when it appeared."  (Many thanks to
Steve Wilson Sr. for this report.)

DAYLIGHT DISC SPOTTED IN
PERTH AMBOY, NEW JERSEY

     On Sunday, August 30, 1998, Jeff B., 51, and his
lady friend, Gabrielle, were driving through Perth Amboy,
New Jersey (population 41,967) on their way to New
York City's Staten Island borough when they spotted
something gleaming in the daylight sky.
     "I was in New Jersey approaching Staten Island on
Highway 278," Jeff reported, "I was about ten minutes
from the toll booths for the Outer Bridge (which connects
Staten Island to Perth Amboy--J.T.)  I looked out at about
30 degrees to the horizon to the west and the object
appeared to me to be a flattened oval.  It was about the
size of a child's aspirin held on edge at arm's length and
was silver.  It appeared to be completely motionless.
There was blue sky and a few cumulous clouds at great
distance beyond it."
     "I said to my lady friend, Gabrielle, who sat in the
passenger seat, 'What is that?'"
     Jeff then commented that the object "did not look like
any aircraft known to me--no wings, no tail, nothing in the
way of a distinguishing profile."
     "It diminished in size very rapidly.  It appeared to be
moving at a high rate of speed straight away from us at
an angle of ascent of about 10 degrees above my original
line of sight.  Its color changed to gray once it began to
move.  It was gone in three seconds."
     "Gabrielle's eyesight is much better than mine.
She felt that its shape, which was roughly that of a
flattened oval, was actually trapezoidal--she could discern
edges and to her the object appeared to be five-sided."
     "Approximately ten minutes later, we were just
approaching the Outer Bridge.  Gabrielle was looking out
the passenger window to the south when she saw another
object of the same relative size...She thought, 'What a big
bird,' when the object moved straight down very smoothly
and with great uniformity of motion."  The second UFO then
disappeared.
     "I'm an atheist, and my mental bent is very skeptical,"
Jeff added.  "I've always approved of Carl Sagan's statement
that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.  I've
never seen a UFO until last Sunday."  (Many thanks to
Paul Williams of WBAI in New York City for this report.)

COLLEGE COUPLE SEES UFO
IN NORTH CAROLINA

     Two college students, a girl and her boyfriend, went
camping last week in Pinnacle, North Carolina, in the
state park between Mount Airy and Pilot Mountain,
about 125 miles (200 kilometers) northwest of Raleigh,
and had a UFO encounter.
     "We were at a campground off Route 52 North,
exit 129, about 20 miles (32 kilometers) north of
Winston-Salem," she reported.  Around 11 p.m., "the
dogs began barking.  As he (her boyfriend) opened the
opened the tent to get a better look around, he saw an
object quickly fly away.  Too quick to be an airplane.
He woke me up, but it was too late.  It had flown away."
     "Then, at 1 a.m., it was back.  A ball of light, getting
bigger, then smaller as it moved back and forth.  We were
a bit shaken."
     "After 30 seconds, we thought, 'let's shine a light on
it to see what it does.'  It became agitated and moved
around more vigorously.  It seemed as if it mimicked the
patterns in which we were shining the light.  Now we
were really scared."
     Shortly thereafter, the couple walked to another
campsite and pointed out the weird light to the other
campers.  One man "also saw it moving.  He said in
fact he had seen something similar a few nights
before, and there are no air/military bases nearby."
     "At 1 a.m., we noticed a second smaller craft at
8 o'clock (position).  The last thing we both remember
before succumbing to sleep was two red flashes of
light spreading across the sky.  I woke up suddenly
and startled around 3 a.m.  I woke my boyfriend up.
He also was shaken.  This time the first craft (light)
was at 4 o'clock (position).  We decided to leave, so
we threw the dogs in the car and headed back to
the campus."
     She added, "The size of the object at its brightest
was about three stars put together, twice as bright
as the North Star (Polaris)."  (Many thanks to Rev.
Billy Dee and UFOSSI for this report.)
(Editor's Comment:  According to author Manly Wade
Wellman, those mountains are the haunt of a strange
"critter" called "the Behinder."  See the Wellman
story, The Desrick on Yandro.)

UNUSUAL UFO SPOTTED NEAR
WEST SALEM, OHIO

     On Saturday, August 29, 1998, at 9:30 p.m., a woman
motorist driving on Ohio Route 42 between Ashland
(population 47,507) and West Salem (population 1,534)
spotted "a peculiar cluster of four lights the color of
a 'caution traffic light,' i.e. yellow or amber.
     The woman "observed a bright flash of 'yellow' light.
Her attention was immediately drawn to four yellow
circular lights that appeared to her to be 'two trees
high' (above the ground)."
     "According to the witness, the object 'flashed' several
times, perhaps as many as five flashes.  After each flash,
a long 'tail' of fire--'like a jet's exhaust'--was seen to shoot
out the 'back' of the object.  She said that the 'exhaust'
seemed to be physically separated from the object."
     "After she had witnessed several light flashes, she
stopped her car and stepped outside to get a better look
at whatever was causing the light.  While she was
standing on the edge of the roadway, the object flashed
several more times, after which she witnessed the
'exhaust' again."
     "She detected no sound during the entire incident.
The oddity was last sighted as it moved to the west of
her position."  She then called the National UFO Reporting
Center in Seattle, Washington to report the incident.
     The case was further investigated by Tri-States
Advocates for Scientific Knowledge.  T.A.S.K. public
relations director Kenneth Young spoke to a female
employee at the Hidden Acres Campground near
Ashland to see if anyone else had reported a UFO.
     "'It was certainly strange,' said the campground
employee.  'It looked like a red light with flames
coming out the back.  It almost looked like a flame
coming from it, but it's hard to say after I think about it.'"
     "'We were doing safety checks at 11:15 or 11:20.
just making sure that the campgrounds are quiet and
that everything was fine.  And, while driving around the
grounds in a golf cart, we spotted the red..an unusual
red light.  It looked like it had a tail of fire.  I commented
about it to my husband, and we later assumed that it
must have been the new cell-tower (cellular telephone
relay tower--J.T.)."
     "The weird thing about this is that three teenagers
all came screaming about it, and they wanted to report
a UFO," she added.  "We just thought they must have
seen the cell-tower, too."
     Meanwhile, the original witness spoke to neighbors
in West Salem, and a nine-year-old girl told her about
"a fire that was in the sky last night."
     A four-year-old boy said he saw something "that
was like a ball and had a tail."
     Young telephoned both the Wayne County
Sheriff's Department and the Ashland County Sheriff's
Department, but police dispatchers said there were
no UFO reports received that night.
     West Salem is located 46 miles (73 kilometers)
southwest of Cleveland.  (Many thanks to Kenneth
Young of T.A.S.K. and Peter B. Davenport of the
National UFO Reporting Center for this news story.)
(Editor's Comment: For more lowdown on a UFO
with an 'exhaust,' see the following story.)

CARTOONIST SEES UNUSUAL
UFO IN SOUTHERN BRAZIL

     On Sunday, August 23, 1998, at about 4 a.m.,
Mauricio de Souza, the famous Brazilian cartoonist,
was driving from Rio de Janeiro to Sao Paulo on
the old coast highway.
     Crossing the border into Sao Paulo state, he
was midway between the small cities of Poa and
Ferraz de Vasconcelos "when he saw what appeared
to be a strange star in the cloudless sky."
     "The point of light moved at first very slowly, but,
after a moment, both its speed and its glow increased
dramatically."
     Souza "stopped the car and was about to grab his
Nikon...but worried that he would not have enough time"
to properly focus the camera, "he preferred to keep
observing the object."
     Souza described the UFO as "an intense orange
color that was flying at an estimated altitude of 10,000
meters (33,000 feet).  The speed at this moment was
typical of a commercial airliner, and the object had a
bluish jet flame that did not touch its body, like the
flame of a solder (acetylene torch--J.T.)."
     "Another witness that was passing by confirmed
this sighting, and both of them 'seemed not to have the
faintest idea what it was, but it was definitely not an
airplane.'"  (Muito obrigado a Sergio Graciotti por
eso caso.)

MORE CROP CIRCLES FOUND
IN WESTERN CANADA

     More crop circles have appeared in the western
Canadian provinces of Saskatchewan and British
Columbia.
      On Monday, August 17, 1998, a single crop
circle measuring 15 feet in diameter was found in
Midale, Sask. (population 497), a town on Provincial
Highway 38 about 93 miles (144 kilometers) southeast
of Regina.
     The following week, on Monday, August 24, 1998,
three crop circles were discovered in a neighboring
field in Midale, just west of the first site.
     On Tuesday, August 25, 1998, a strange formation
was found in a wheat field in Cando, Sask., about
40 miles (64 kilometers) south of Saskatoon.  The
formation consisted of circles and the numbers 4:20.
     According to Paul Anderson of Circles Phenomenon
Research-Canada, the circle was about 15 to 20 meters
in diameter.  "Top circle is anti-clockwise; the bottom
circle is clockwise...Neighbor also reported seeing a
'large shiny object' near the spot the previous day."
     During the last days of August, three more crop
circles were found in Midale.  Each circle measured
22 feet in diameter.
     On Tuesday, September 1, 1998, an airplane crew
spotted 11 crop circles in an oat field outside of
Vanderhoof, British Columbia (population 4,028), a
town on Provincial Highway 16 about 58 miles
(93 kilometers) west of Prince George, B.C.
     According to Graham Conway of UFO*BC, "All
circles have very nice spiral lay patterns, with the crop
pressed hard to the ground."  The formation "covers
an area approximately 500 by 200 feet," with the crop
circles "ranging in size between 10 feet to 100 feet in
diameter.  Most circles are very close together, almost
touching.  The circles are beautifully spiralled with no
broken plants, no footprints or other tracks seen, and
no disturbance to the soil beneath the flattened plants."
     On Wednesday, September 2, 1998, two more
crop circles appeared in the field at Cando, Sask.
about 100 to 150 feet away from the 4:20 formation.
The circles were found by a farmer combining the
field.  (Many thanks to Paul Anderson of Circles
Phenomenon Research-Canada and Michael J. Strainic,
Bill Oliver and Graham Conway of UFO*BC for these
reports.)

WEIRD CREATURE REPORTED
IN WESTERN AUSTRALIA

     A strange quadruped animal, described as
being "like a black panther" was reported to be
responsible for the death of a sheep on a station
(ranch in the USA--J.T.) at Jarrahdale, Western
Australia (W.A.)
     "The mysterious predator believed responsible
for unexplained livestock killings in Jarrahdale has
struck again."
     "The hunt for the animal, thought to be a
cougar-like cat, is to be stepped up after the
discovery of another savaged lamb."
     "Veterinary technician Harry Findlay said he was
waiting for a second opinion on what animal was
capable of biting the lamb cleanly in half...The cruel
kill happened within 500 metres of the site where a
pet lamb was mauled in May."  (See the Perth, W.A.
Sunday Times for August 16, 1998, "Killer 'cat' strikes
again."  Many thanks to Diane Hamilton for forwarding
the newspaper article.)
(Editor's Comment:  For more on Australia's weird
critter, see this week's from the UFO Files...feature
story.)

CRUISE SHIP PASSENGERS
SEE A UFO WEST OF MEXICO

     Cruise ship passengers reported seeing a UFO at
sea last week, just off Mexico's west coast.  The motor
vessel had left Puerto Vallarta, in Jalisco state 774
kilometers (484 miles) west of Mexico City, and was
bound for Cabo San Lucas in Baja California Sur when
the sighting occurred.
     "The group of six passengers," including one woman
from Los Angeles, California, "spotted a very big ball of
light in the distance.  At arm's length, it was larger than
a quarter, but she estimated that it was over five miles
(8 kilometers) away."
     At first, the UFO "was stationary, but it was not
stationary very long.  It moved slowly, like a hummingbird,
making dips toward the (Pacific) ocean, then sideways,
then downward.  The movements were erratic.  Then it
zoomed off across the sky and disappeared."  (Many
thanks to Jim Hickman for this report.)

PYRAMIDAL UFO SPOTTED
IN TELFORD, UK

     On Tuesday, September 1, 1998, Adam W. "was just
closing my window to got to bed" at his home in Telford, UK
"when I saw something flying in my direction.  I was struck
by the silence, so I opened my window again" to get a better
look at the UFO.
     "The shape was like a squashed pyramid, more like the
top half of a diamond.  At arm's length, it was about 1 1/2
inches wide by about 1/2 inch high.  There was a red light
on the left of the object and a green light on the right.
Between them was a white strobe light.  As the white light
strobed, it looked as if it was going (across the pyramid's
base) from the red light to the green light."
     "I went to bed, and about five minutes later, I heard a
helicopter in the area, so I watched the sky for a while and
spotted the 'copter at a fair distance away with just the
usual red flashing light."  (Email Interview)

TWELVE KILLED IN NEVADA
HELICOPTER CRASH

     Twelve U.S. Air Force crewmen were killed early
Friday morning, September 4, 1998, when two helicopters
collided north of Indian Springs, Nevada (population 1,164).
     The crash took place in the rugged Spotted Mountains,
about 40 miles (64 kilometers) northwest of Las Vegas.
     The two HH-60G helicopters were from a rescue
squadron of the USAF 57th Wing, headquartered at
Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada.
     "Mike Estrada, a Nellis spokesman, said it was more
likely the helicopters collided before they crashed.  But he
and others said it was also possible the helicopters both
crashed into the rugged mountainous terrain."
     The USAF crews were reportedly on a night training
exercise that "called for using night-vision goggles and
officials assumed crew members were using goggles at
the time of the crash."
     "Early yesterday (Friday) afternoon the Air Force
confirmed all crew members had perished."
     "'We were hoping for survivors.  It's a fairly remote
area.  That's why we took so much time,' said Brig. Gen.
Theodore Lay, commander of the 57th Wing at Nellis."
     "The helicopters were operating on Nellis Range,
5,200 square miles of mountain and desert stretching
north of the base."  (See the Boston, Mass. Herald for
September 5, 1998, "12 Die as Air Force helicopters
crash in Nevada," page 3)

INQUIRY BOARDS DISCUSS
VORTEX AND SOHO

     "A momentary loss of electrical power led to an
explosion that destroyed a Titan 4A rocket and the
top secret spy satellite (Vortex) it was carrying, the
Air Force said."
     "Investigators for the Air Force and Lockheed
Martin, which built the rocket, are trying to determine
what caused the outage."
     "The Titan 4A, the most powerful unmanned U.S.
rocket, blew up 42 seconds after liftoff from Cape
Canaveral on Aug. 12 in one of the most expensive
space disasters in history."  (See USA Today  for
September 3, 1998, "Titan Probe.")
     "Faulty commands sent by NASA controllers
caused the June 24 failure of a U.S.-European science
satellite orbiting the sun, " the Solar and Heliospheric
Observatory, a.k.a. SOHO.
     "An investigative board said controllers at the
Goddard Spaceflight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland
failed to fully monitor the $1 billion" SOHO satellite
"and inadvertently disabled some systems.  Engineers
regained radio contact with SOHO last month.  They
hope to put it back into a useful orbit within two months."
(See USA Today for September 4, 1998, "SOHO Woes"
by Paul Hoversten.)

<B>from the UFO Files...

5>1978: PANTHER-LIKE CREATURE
          SEEN IN AUSTRALIA

     Mysterious black-panther type creatures have been
seen all over the island continent of Australia.  The
majority of the sightings have taken place in the states
of Victoria, South Australia and Western Australia.
     Ancient Aboriginal legends tell of a "black furry
monster" that terrorized the tribes during the long-ago
"Dreamtime."  Indeed, cave paintings of these "devil
dogs of the Dreamtime" have been found west of
Alice Springs.
     Here's a typical encounter:
     In August 1978, Mr. and Mrs. Fred Waites reported,
"We were driving across the Nullarbor Plain on the Eyre
Highway towards Ooldea around 8 p.m. one night in
mid-August.  There were no other cars on the road.
Suddenly, we were surprised by a massive black monster
caught in the glare of the headlights, walking across the
highway some distance ahead of us."
     "As I brought the car to a quick halt about 20 feet
from the animal, it snarled directly at us, then dashed
off the road into the darkness across open ground."
     "The animal looked like a giant panther--big head,
large body and long tail--and at least seven feet from
head to tail, and about three feet in height on all fours.
Its legs were powerful-looking and it had big paws."
     According to author Rex Gilroy, "In October 1972,
at Latham, north of Perth and west of Lake Moore, the
settlers of the outlying areas were concerned about a
number of cattle mutilations and sightings of one or
more enormous catlike or panther-like beasts."
     Gilroy postulates that the "panther" may be an
unknown marsupial predator, distantly related to the
opossum and the kangaroo, fulfilling the same role in
Australia's ecosystem as the cougar in North America
or the jaguar in South America.
     "And some eyewitnesses claimed to have seen
'panthers' carrying pouched young.  If so, it is obvious,
as I've already claimed, that we are dealing with some
hitherto unknown species of giant marsupial cat,
perhaps related to the marsupial lion, Thylacoleo
carnifex, which roamed Australia during the last ice
age at least 12,000 years ago."  (See MYSTERIOUS
AUSTRALIA by Rex Gilroy, Nexus Publishing,
Mapleton, Qlnd., 1995, pages 87 through 93.)

<B>FUN UFO WEBSITES:
     Chupacabras and UFO author/researcher Scott Corrales
has a website about to go online.  If you'd like a sneak
preview of his Inexplicata website, go to this URL:
http://208.22.247.81/
     For the latest Bigfoot sightings, drop in at Northwest
Mysteries at http://www.nwmyst.com
     Cory Kostyniuk just lauched a new UFO website.
It's at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/7649/
     For more information on the recent UFO sightings in
the Ardennes, check out UFOCOM of Belgium's page
at http://195.74.196.113/UfocomHq/uscharleville1.htm
     And don't miss our parent site!  You can always visit
UFO INFO at http://ufoinfo.com
     Interested in back issues of UFO Roundup?  Then
drop in anytime at our webpage at this address...
http://ufoinfo.com/roundup

     Thirty-two years ago, on September 8, 1966, the
original Star Trek series premiered on NBC.  If I
remember correctly, the first episode had Doctor McCoy
encountering his old girlfriend, Nancy Crater, on a
distant planet.  But it turns out that "Nancy" is not what
she seems.  I won't ruin it for the newcomers.  See it
for yourself on the Sci-Fi Channel.  They're running all
79 episodes of the original series, newly restored and
digitally recolored, between now and January.

     We'll be back next weekend with more saucer news
from "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."  See
you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1998 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
items from UFO Roundup on their websites or in
newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter
and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.</PRE></HTML>






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 7

                         Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 07:58:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 09:06:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

I'll refrain from snipping this post as I reply to a couple of
points.


>Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 06:35:59 -0500
>From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>>Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 09:34:55 -0400
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>>>Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 17:56:51 -0500
>>>From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>><snip>

>Steven,

>I hope this replay clarify my intention to provide all of you
>with enough material regarding some procedures that I guess
>should be done to discover a hoaxed video film or photograph.

>BTW Steve, you 'sniped' my post where I clearly explained
>this...

>>>Another notation, if you film and follow a body in movement with
>>>any COMMON filming device the adjacent static objects should
>>>appear as blurred or deformed ,(tape and camera speed must be
>>>considered).

>To complete my post of the above sniped text it says ..

>>>The film should be processed under rigorously controlled
>>>conditions (if it has not already been processed commercially).
>>>If the camera is available but empty, the same operations should
>>>be conducted wit a film of the same type as the original.

>>What film? I've seen no comments to indicate that this was a
>>"film", but was video taped with a hand-held Camcorder.

>I understand that you haven't seen another facts. The term
>'video filming' is commonly used by many professional video
>editors and processing center units. A video filming device same
>as the CCD video camera that was used in the Mexico's City UFO
>video.

If you use the word "film" as a verb (as in the example you
mention), it applies to video taping, but not when used as a
noun. "Processing" film refers to "film" that is checmically
based, and not magnetic media. Your use of the term in your post
appears to confuse the two, and I don't understand your
reference that the "film should be processed under rigorously
controlled conditions". I sense that English may not be your
primary language, and perhaps this is a translational problem.

You also refer to the smearing being the result of the
cameraman's trying to pan the video camera as the craft moves,
which makes sense. However, the smearing that has been detected
is clearly the result of the fact that it was hand-held and it
was zoomed in on a distant object. The movement of the camera
should have resulted in much more smearing than is shown, but
the "shutter speed" (or video tape equivilent) had been
increased to twice normal (according to Bruce Maccabee). This
appears to show a pattern that supports the contention that this
video was planned and constructed, rather than it being a
natural event that was accidentally caught on video tape.

Does this prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the Mexico City
Video is a hoax? Absolutely not. Until someone comes forward
to claim credit for this as a hoax, there will always be doubt,
and all we have are indications that this was faked. However,
as we have limited time and resources, I would suspect that most
researchers will move on to more productive endeavors.

>Here are some examples to support my exposition, comments are
>welcome:

>------

>Source: http://www.prdvideo.com/

>Welcome to PRD Video Projects Web Site! We are a Specialist
>Video Production company that provides professional video
>filming using Betacam SP DV and SVHS 3CCD Cameras. Video post
>production and special effects

>-----

>Source:http://www.prdvideo.com/services.html

>Filming Reel Life Video provides professional video filming
>using DV 3CCD cameras, including multi-source sound recording
>and lighting.


>Source: http://www.sages.org/sg_vidguide.html

>Sages Video Production Guidelines

><snip>

>Videotape Format

>The highest quality videotape format is recommended when filming
>the original raw footage, such as U-matic (3/4 inch tape),
>Betacam, S-VHS, High-8 mm. VHS and 8 mm are also acceptable but
>are somewhat lower in quality. Original footage should not be
>recorded on long play (LP) or extended long play (EP) modes.

><snip>

>-----------

>Here you'll see how the technology used in the CCD hand held
>camera allows the possibility that a hoax exist.

>This is from Cannon site:

>Source: http://www.canon.co.uk/press/27_10_97d.htm
>
><snip>

>Based on Canon's successful EX2 Hi video camera, the XL1
>combines optical and imaging technologies unique to Canon in a
>camcorder ideal for professional film makers demanding
>portability and broadcast quality film whilst also appealing to
>semi-professional and amateur enthusiasts requiring a wide range
>of features alongside ease of use.

>Digital image quality- 3CCD and Pixel Shift Technology Superb
>picture quality results from using a larger light capturing area
>foreach pixel to give higher sensitivity, higher signal noise
>ratio and a greater dynamic range. In addition, stunningly clear
>still images can be obtained from moving video action. <snip>

>The last quote is essential to suspect that the Mexico City
>Video images or frame pixels were shifted with this new CCD
>technology, at least there is a possibility of a manipulation
>technique.

>>Of course, I could have been out sick the day it was announced.

>>Steve

>I wish you don't get sick again.

>Regards,

>Alex Franz
>alcione.org








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   Sep > Sep 7

                      Forgotten Secret Soviet 'Files'?

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 08:42:57 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 08:59:50 -0400
Subject: Forgotten Secret Soviet 'Files'?


Source: NONSOLOUFO (Italian)

http://www.videosoft.it/nonsoloufo/nufo001e.htm

This page is a rather incoherent automatic English translation
which I have tried to make comprehensible below, without
digressing too much from the text. The original article from the
Italian newspaper La Stampa and the automatic translation
follow.

The Jimmy Carter quote is based on the automatic translation,
too, as I didn't have much time to look for the original. Maybe
someone has it at hand?

I did find a very well-known Carter quote with almost the same
contents, though.

During his presidential election campaign in 1976, Carter told
reporters about a UFO that he and others had seen in 1969 before
his speech at the Lions Club in Leary, Georgia, and emphasized:
"If I become President, I'll make every piece of information
this country has about UFO sightings available to the public and
the scientists."

Unfortunately NASA and the Air Force, among others, succeeded in
preventing his vow from being fulfilled (Timothy Good, Beyond
Top Secret, London 1996, p. 434 and 438).


Stig


*******


>From the daily LA STAMPA February 10, 1993:


UFO - The cover-up in Moscow


The revelations of director Mario Gariazzo who is preparing a
movie in cinema verit=E9, entitled "The Cover-Up". [Cinema verit=E9
is the art or technique of filming a motion picture so as to
convey candid realism --Stig].

Top secret archives in Moscow, but the CIA is hiding the truth,
too.

Franco Nero plays lead as a Soviet officer.


ROME. The other day it was announced in the news that a secret
dossier on the flying disks had been discovered in Russia. We
were informed that 1965 in Hanoi Soviet anti-aircraft defences
fired at a UFO, which answered the fire with a luminous ray,
causing the death of 200 people. It seems like science fiction.
We spoke somewhat to director Mario Gariazzo who is preparing a
movie in cinema verit=E9 on UFOs, entitled "The Cover-Up" with
Franco Nero playing lead as Major Jurij Leonov, an ex-agent of
the KGB. The film doesn't show interplanetary craft, but it
intends to eviscerate the superpower's plot to hide the truth of
the phenomena from the public eye - deeply worried about a
possible attack on Earth. The film will materialize in the
United States and Russia, with the aid of Aldo and Daniele Ricci
of Italy Films Production and of Ital Service Video.

Gariazzo explains:

"I think I have arrived at the point of breaking the wall of
conspiracy of silence, regarding this question. I am encouraged
by the election of Bill Clinton as President - a fresh American
voice.

Who knows? Maybe he wants to be the one himself or allow others
to reveal what Jimmy Carter promised, when he told the country
during his campaign:

"If I become President I will inform the world about UFOs. There
are quintals of material in the National Archives, labelled
secret, which the public must become familiar with. We must not
close our eyes, even though reality is bewildering." But then he
didn't do anything about it. Why?

Mario Gariazzo has a thorough knowledge of the subject, having
been part of a very important investigation committee on UFOs,
NICAP, or the "National Investigation Committee On Aerial
Phenomena" which for many years has collaborated actively with
the CIA. Gariazzo has come into possession of documents that
seem important and are strictly confidential.

"They are real - he says - in fact all of them carry the
following label: "Reproduction of this document in whole or in
part is prohibited except with permission of the office of
origin." Be aware that to impose a cover-up on the subject, the
responsible authorities didn't hesitate to gerrymander some
data, and they have forced to "strange suicides" many persons
who had taken too close an interest in the problem."

But now the truth seems to emerge in Russia.

"In Moscow in Lubianka Street 6 all of the secret services are
located. KGB's agency is on the fourth floor, and here are the
headquarters of KRU, the "Kontr Razvedochnoe Upravlenye," i.e.
the agency for protection of military secrets. Here the UFO
dossiers are safeguarded, too. An enormous material which I have
been able to consult."

And these dossiers are the starting point of his film?

"Not only. I possess US documentation, too. In short, I have
picked up a considerable bulk of data. I wanted to do a
worldwide journalistic investigation. Then I decided for the
movie -   dealing not with science fiction, but with
intelligence services - in which it is documented that the
governments of the world are hiding the truth about the flying
disks."

And are they hiding the truth about the extraterrestrials, too?
Is it a truth that they have been bagging and alienating?

"Certainly. I have been able to see a deep-frozen alien in
Dayton, Ohio. But first you must know that in the summer of 1949
a nuclear experiment was performed near Aztec in New Mexico. A
flying disk was attracted to Earth by the burst. It didn't have
openings: compact and solid like a coin. After having struggled
for weeks the experts succeeded in opening it, and they found
six dead bodies inside. Here is the testimony of university
professor Spencer Carr, depicting one of the extraterrestrials:
"Apparent age of 30 years, perfect set of teeth, chromosomes and
human blood." But through dissection of the cranial canopy it
has been discovered that the brain didn't fit the age, but that
of a man of 400, 500 years."

Depict what you have seen!

"Not a monster, but a being structured like a human. Nude, of
male sex. A creature of around 90 centimeters, of olive color,
but in proportion to the body, with arms and legs thinner than
ours. Big eyes and Mongolian features."

Aren't you afraid of being labelled a dreamer?

"Why on earth? My work, my seriousness testifies to the
contrary. If I say that I know a lot about the flying disks and
then realize a cinema verit=E9, you'll see that I possess ample
documentation. There are many scientists that know of the
existence of the disks, and they have declared so."

Could you supply a name?

"Names? In tens. One above all, professor Colman Vonkeviczky,
who was U Thant's secretary in the UN - U Thant was Secretary
General of UN from 1961 to 1971, Stig - and in 1967 declared:
"We impugn the plot of governments regarding this serious
problem that involves international security. The scientific
questions concerning UFOs, behind which the governments are
entrenched, are used to hide the preparation for a space war"."

Are the extraterrestrials going to invade the Earth then?

"Why otherwise this confederacy of silence around the phenomenon
of flying disks? It is time to get ready to the big event, the
meeting with creatures very distant from us, either in time or
in space."


Nevio Boni


*******

The Italian original is at

http://www.videosoft.it/nonsoloufo/nufo001i.htm

***

La congiura del silenzio

Archivi top=BFsecret a Mosca ma anche la CIA nasconde la verit=E0


Dal quotidiano LA STAMPA del 10 febbraio '93


UFO =BF La congiura del silenzio a Mosca

Le rivelazioni del regista Mario Gariazzo che sta preparando un
film=BFverit=E0 dal titolo "La congiura del silenzio".

Archivi top=BFsecret a Mosca, ma anche la CIA nasconde la verit=E0.
Franco Nero protagonista =E8 un ufficiale sovietico.

ROMA. =C8 dell'altro giorno la notizia che in Russia si sono
scoperti segretissimi dossier sui dischi volanti. Si viene cos=EC
a sapere che nel 1965 ad Hanoi la contraerea sovietica ha fatto
fuoco contro un Ufo che avrebbe risposto al cannoneggiamento con
un raggio luminoso provocando duecento morti. Sembra
fantascienza. Ne parliamo col regista Mario Gariazzo che sta
preparando un film=BFverit=E0 sugli Ufo dal titolo =ABLa congiura del
silenzio=BB con Franco Nero protagonista nel ruolo di un ex agente
del KGB, il maggiore Jurij Leonov. Il film non mostra veicoli
interplanetari ma vuole sviscerare il complotto delle
superpotenze per nascondere la verit=E0 dei fenomeni all'opinione
pubblica, vivamente preoccupata per un eventuale, possibile
attacco alla Terra. Il film verr=E0 realizzato negli Stati Uniti e
in Russia, produttori Aldo e Daniele Ricci dell'Italia Films
Production e della Ital Video Service.

Dice Gariazzo: =ABPenso sia giunto il momento d'infrangere il muro
d'omert=E0 sulla questione. Mi incoraggia l'elezione del
presidente Bill Clinton, una voce nuova dell'America. Chiss=E0 che
non voglia essere lui stesso o permettere ad altri di rivelare
quanto aveva promesso in campagna elettorale Jimmy Carter che
allora disse: "Se diventer=F2 Presidente far=F2 conoscere gli Ufo al
mondo. Ci sono quintali di materiale tenuto segreto negli
archivi nazionali che il pubblico deve conoscere. Non dobbiamo
chiudere gli occhi anche se la realt=E0 =E8 sconcertante". Ma poi
non ne fece nulla. Perch=E9?=BB

Mario Gariazzo =E8 un profondo conoscitore della materia avendo
fatto parte del pi=F9 importante comitato d'investigazione sugli
Ufo che =E8 il NICAP di Washington, il =ABNational Investigation
Committee on Aereal Phenomena=BB che per molti anni ha collaborato
attivamente con la CIA. Gariazzo =E8 venuto in possesso di
documenti che parrebbero importanti, oltre che strettamente
confidenziali.

=AB=C8 vero =BF dice =BF infatti riportano tutti la seguente dicitura:
"Reproduction of this document in whole or in part is prohibited
except with the permission of the office of origin". Sappia che
per imporre la cortina del silenzio sull'argomento, le autorit=E0
responsabili non hanno esitato a manipolare certi dati ed hanno
costretto a "strani suicidi" molte persone che si erano
interessate al problema troppo da vicino=BB.

Per=F2 adesso in Russia sembra che emerga la verit=E0.

=ABA Mosca in via Lubianka 6 =E8 dislocato l'insieme dei servizi
segreti. Al quarto piano esiste l'organismo dell'ex KGB ed =E8 qui
che ha sede anche il KRU, cio=E8 il "Kontr Razvedochnoe
Upravlenye", che =E8 l'organismo per la protezione dei segreti
militari. Qui sono custoditi anche i dossier sugli Ufo.
Materiale enorme che in parte ho potuto consultare=BB.

E da questi dossier ha preso spunto per il suo film?

=ABNon solo. Possiedo anche una documentazione Usa. Insomma, ho
raccolto una mole considerevole di dati. Volevo farne
un'inchiesta giornalistica mondiale. Poi ho deciso per il film.
Non di fantascienza ma di spionaggio, in cui si documenta che i
governi del mondo nascondono la verit=E0 sui dischi volanti=BB.

E nascondono anche la verit=E0 sugli extraterrestri? =C8 vero che
sono stati catturati degli alieni?

=ABCerto. Io ho avuto la possibilit=E0 di vedere un alieno in una
cella frigorifera a Dayton nell'Ohio. Deve sapere che
nell'estate del 1949 venne effettuato un esperimento nucleare ad
Atrec, in New Mexico. Un disco volante per l'esplosione venne
risucchiato a terra. Non aveva aperture: compatto e solido come
una moneta. Dopo averci trafficato per settimane gli esperti
riuscirono ad aprirlo e trovarono all'interno sei cadaveri. Ecco
la testimonianza del professore universitario Spencer Carr che
descrive uno degli extraterrestri: "Apparente et=E0 di 30 anni,
dentatura perfetta, cromosomi e sangue umano". Ma nel sezionare
la calotta cranica si =E8 scoperto che il cervello non
corrispondeva all'et=E0, bens=EC a quella di un uomo di 400, 500
anni=BB.

Descriva quello che ha visto lei.

=ABNon un mostriciattolo, ma un essere strutturato come un umano.
Nudo, di sesso maschile. Una creatura alta circa 90 centimetri,
di colore olivastro. Per=F2 in rapporto al corpo con braccia e
gambe pi=F9 sottili delle nostre. Occhi grandi e tratti
mongoloidi=BB.

Non teme di venire considerato un visionario?

=ABE perch=E9 mai? il mio lavoro, la mia seriet=E0 testimoniano il
contrario. Se dico che so molte cose sui dischi volanti e se ci
realizzo un film=BFverit=E0 vuol dire che possiedo un'ampia
documentazione. Ci sono molti scienziati che conoscono
l'esistenza dei dischi e l'hanno dichiarato=BB.

Pu=F2 fare qualche nome?

=ABQualche? A decine. Uno per tutti, il professor Colman
Vonkeviczky, che fu segretario di U=BFThant all'ONU, che nel 1967
dichiar=F2: "Accusiamo i complotti dei governi in relazione a
questo serio problema che coinvolge la sicurezza internazionale.
La questione scientifica degli Ufo dietro la quale si trincerano
i governi =E8 usata per nascondere la preparazione d'una guerra
spaziale"=BB.

Allora gli extraterrestri stanno per invadere la Terra?

=ABPerch=E9 altrimenti questa congiura del silenzio attorno al
fenomeno dei dischi volanti? =C8 ora che ci si prepari al grande
evento, all'incontro con creature molto lontane da noi sia nel
tempo che nello spazio=BB.

(Nevio Boni)


*******

The automatic English translation is at

http://www.videosoft.it/nonsoloufo/nufo001e.htm

***


The cower=BFup Archives top=BFsecret in Moscow but also the CIA hide
the truth



>From daily LA STAMPA of February 10, 1993

UFO =BF The cower=BFup in Moscow

The revelations of the director Mario Gariazzo that is preparing
a film=BFverity from the title "The cower=BFup"

Archives top=BFsecret in Moscow, but also the CIA hide the truth.
Franco Nero main part is a Soviet officer.

ROME. It is of the other day the news that in Russia have been
discovered secret dossier on the flying disks. We come as to
know that in the 1965 to Hanoi the Soviet anti=BFaircraft has done
fire against an Ufo that would have answered to the cannonade
with a bright ray arousing 200 deceased. It seems science
fiction. We speak any with the director Mario Gariazzo that is
preparing a film=BFverity on the Ufo from the title =ABthe cower=BFup=BB
with Franco Nero main part in the role of an ex agent of the
KGB, the major Jurij Leonov. The film dont show carriers
interplanetary but it wants to eviscerate the plot of the super
power for hide the truth of the phenomenons to the public
opinion, warmly worried for a contingent, possible attack to the
Earth. The film will come realized in the United States and in
Russia, Aldo and Daniele Ricci of Italy Films Production and of
the Ital Service Video.

Tells Gariazzo: =ABI Think have arrived at the moment of break the
wall of conspiracy of silence on the question. It encourages me
the election of the president Bill Clinton, a new voice from
America. Who knows that he doesn't want to be heself or allow to
other of reveal as had promised electoral Jimmy Carter that then
told in the country: "If I will become President I will do know
the Ufo to the world. There are quintals of material liable
secret in the national archives that the public must know. We
must not close the eyes also if the reality is bewildering". But
then he didn't do anything of it. Why?=BB

Mario Gariazzo is a bottom connoisseur of the matter having been
part of most important committee of investigation on the Ufo
that is the NICAP of Washington, the =ABNational Investigation
Committee on Aereal Phenomena=BB that for many years has
collaborated actively with the CIA. Gariazzo has come in
possession of documents that would seem important, beyond that
stricly confidential.

=ABIt is real =BF he tells =BF in fact all bring again the following
label: "Reproduction of this document in whole or in part is
prohibited except with the permission of the office of origin".
Know you that for impose the cower=BFup on the matter, the
responsible authorities have not hesitated to gerrymander some
data and they have forced to "strange suicides" many persons
that had taken an interest in to the problem too much nearby=BB.

But now in Russia seems emerge the truth.

=ABIn Moscow in Lubianka street 6 is located the whole of the
secret services. To the fourth floor exists the organism of the
ex KGB and it is here that there is the head=BFoffices of the the
KRU, that is the "Kontr Razvedochnoe Upravlenye", that it is the
organism for the protection of the secret military. Here have
safeguarded the dossiers on the Ufo also. Material enormous that
I in part have could consult=BB.

And from these dossier has taken starting point for his film?

=ABNot only. I possess also a documentation Usa. In conclusion, I
have picked up a considerable bulk of data. I wanted do a
journalistic world inquest. Then I have decided for the film.
Not of science=BFfiction but of spying, in which is documented
that the governments of the world hide the truth on the flying
disks=BB.

And do they hide the truth on the extraterrestrials also? It is
truth that they has been bagged alienate?

=ABCertain. I have had the capability of see an alien in a cell
freezing to Dayton in the Ohio. You must know that in the summer
of the 1949 came effected a nuclear experiment to Atrec, in New
Mexico. A flying disk for the burst came attracted to earth. It
didn't have openings: compact and solid like a coin. After have
us trafficked for weeks the experts succeeded to open it and
they found inside six dead body. Here the testimony of the
professor university Spencer Carr that depicts one of the
extraterrestrials: "Apparent age of 30 years, perfect set of
teeth, chromosome and human blood". But in the dissect the
cranial canopy it is been discovered that the brain didn't
coincide to the age, but to that of a man of 400, 500 years=BB.

Depict that you have seen.

=ABNot a monster, but a being structured like a human. Nude, of
male sex. A creature of around 90 centimeters, of olive color.
But in report to the body with arms and legs thinner than the
our. Big eyes and features mongolians=BB.

Doesn't you fear of come advised a visionary?

=ABIs it why never? my work, my seriousness testifies the
contrary. If I tell that I know many things on the flying disks
and if I realize us a film=BFverity, tell that I possess an ample
documentation. There are many scientists that they know the
existence of the disks and they have declared it=BB.

Could you do any name?

=ABAny? In tens. One for all, the professor Colman Vonkeviczky,
that he was secretary of U=BFThant to the ONU, that in the 1967
declared: "we accuse the plots of the governments in relation to
this serious problem that involves the international security.
The scientific question of the Ufo behind which the governments
are entrenched is used for hide the preparation of a spatial
war"=BB.

Then are the extraterrestrials about to invade the Earth?

=ABWhy otherwise this confederacy of the silence around to the
phenomenon of the flying disks? =C8 It It is time gets ready to
big event, to the meeting with very distant creatures from us
either in the time that in the space=BB.

Nevio Boni







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 7

                    Use of "Film" When Referring To Video

From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 11:54:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 11:54:00 -0400
Subject: Use of "Film" When Referring To Video



As far as posts to the List are concerned I usually adhere
to Glenn Campbell's credo 'moderate moderation'.

That said, I feel the urge to jump in here.....

>Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 07:58:54 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>>Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 06:35:59 -0500
>>From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>>>Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 09:34:55 -0400
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>>><snip>

>>Steven,

>>I hope this replay clarify my intention to provide all of you
>>with enough material regarding some procedures that I guess
>>should be done to discover a hoaxed video film or photograph.

<snip>

>>>What film? I've seen no comments to indicate that this was a
>>>"film", but was video taped with a hand-held Camcorder.

>>I understand that you haven't seen another facts. The term
>>'video filming' is commonly used by many professional video
>>editors and processing center units. A video filming device same
>>as the CCD video camera that was used in the Mexico's City UFO
>>video.

"Video Filming"? Commonly used? By professionals?

The _fact_ is that, be they cinematographers, videographers or
even photographers (no slight intended, Bob) 'we', all use the
expression "shoot" - as in "Shooting film", "shooting video" or
"getting shots".

_Professional_ 'Shooters', directors, editors, etc., have a
professional language they use to communicate with each other.
They _don't_ mix imaging-technique descriptions.
Clarity promotes understanding and efficiency.

The syntax problem appeared with the advent of home-video.
Writers have not helped - especially those not versed in the
language of imaging. They've helped to fuel the confusion.

Hence gems like the following:

>If you use the word "film" as a verb (as in the example you
>mention), it applies to video taping, but not when used as a
>noun. "Processing" film refers to "film" that is chemically
>based, and not magnetic media.

"Film" applies only to _film_ - moving or still pictures. When
referring to video, one "shoots", "tapes' or "records" - period.

ebk

Videographer, shooter, director, editor



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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 7

                            NUFOC '98 Draws Nigh

From: Karl T. Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:58:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 12:24:18 -0400
Subject: NUFOC '98 Draws Nigh

Greetings, Fellow List Slaves -- NUFOC '98 promises to be one of
the more interesting ufological gatherings of the year. The
information below is the latest available and includes what may
be the final speaker lineup. Hope to see many of you there. --
Cheers, KARL

THE 35th ANNUAL NATIONAL UFO CONFERENCE CON

NUFOC sponsors the oldest continuing annual UFO convention in
the United States, perhaps the world, and maybe even the Galaxy
(Universe might be pushing it). Founded by Rick Hilberg and
others, NUFOC sponsored its first convention in Cleveland in
1964 and has held one in various cities throughout the United
States every year since then. James ("Saucer Smear") Moseley has
been Permanent Chairman since 1971, heading an illustrious
governing board called the Permanent Organizing Committee (POC).


>>>>>>> THIS YEAR: "APPROACHING THE MILLENNIUM" <<<<<<<

WHEN -- Saturday, November 7, and Sunday, November 8, 1998.

WHERE -- The Days Inn, Bordontown, New Jersey (near Trenton), on
Route 206, just off New Jersey Turnpike Exit 7. This is about 45
miles southwest of Newark Airport, where cars easily can be
rented.

WHO --

-- Local Chairman: Legendary New Jersey UFO researcher PAT
MARCATTILIO.

-- Master of Ceremonies: Ufology's Gadfly and Keeper of The
Field's Sensahumor Since 1954, the More Than Legendary JAMES W.
MOSELEY.

-- Confirmed Speakers:

* UFO historian and investigator KARL PFLOCK with an illustrated
presentation on the intriguing results of his re-examination of
the classic 1952 Scoutmaster Sonny Desvergers Florida
"saucer-attack" case.

* FATE columnist ANTONIO HUNEEUS on UFOs in Chile and elsewhere.

* RICHARD SAUDER, Ph.D., on underground bases.

* BOB DURANT on "Roswell? YES!"

* RICK HILBERG on "UFOs: The First Three Decades."

* TOM BENSON on "One Good Case Is Enough."

* DAVID HUGGINS on his "Lifetime of Abduction Experiences."

* MATT GRAEBER presenting a cornucopia of his hillarious
ufological cartoons.+ * JAMES MOSELEY on "Highlights of 45 Years
in the UFO Field."

* CURT SUTHERLEY, author of STRANGE ENCOUNTERS, on "Magical
Mystery Tours."

* PETER A. JORDAN on "Cattle Mutilations and UFOs."

* GEORGE HANSEN on Remote Viewing.

* MARSHALL BARNES on "The Case for the Philadelphia Experiment"

* "KATIE X," abductee, on "What the ETs Are Telling Us to Do."

* PAT MARCATILLIO on abductee implants.

* MELANIE GREEN, abductee, on her abduction experiences.

+IMPORTANT NOTE:        Matt Graeber, may not be on the program, but
will be in attendance on Saturday.

Most lectures include slides, and more surprises will surely be
added as the conference date draws nigh.

ADVANCE REGISTRATION -- Cost is $35 for one day, $65 for both
glorious days, IF PAID IN ADVANCE BY MAIL prior to October 20.
Send check or money order made out to Pat Marcattilio to: NUFOC,
PO Box 1709, Key West, FL 33041. After October 20 and at the
door, rates are $40 for one day, $70 for both.

HOTEL ROOMS -- The special NUFOC rate at the Bordontown Days
Inn, the convention hotel, is $50 plus tax per night, single and
double. Make your reservation directly with the Days Inn at
800-329-7466 or 609-298-6100. Be sure to ask for the special
NUFOC convention rate.

FOR MORE INFORMATION -- Call 609-883-6921 or 305-294-1873 or
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   Sep > Sep 7

                  Re: Use of "Film" When Referring To Video

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 11:21:45 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 12:26:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Use of "Film" When Referring To Video


>Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 07:58:54 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>I'll refrain from snipping this post as I reply to a couple of
>points.

<snip>

>>>>The film should be processed under rigorously controlled
>>>>conditions (if it has not already been processed commercially).
>>>>If the camera is available but empty, the same operations should
>>>>be conducted wit a film of the same type as the original.

>>>What film? I've seen no comments to indicate that this was a
>>>"film", but was video taped with a hand-held Camcorder.

>>I understand that you haven't seen another facts. The term
>>'video filming' is commonly used by many professional video
>>editors and processing center units. A video filming device same
>>as the CCD video camera that was used in the Mexico's City UFO
>>video.

>If you use the word "film" as a verb (as in the example you
>mention), it applies to video taping, but not when used as a
>noun. "Processing" film refers to "film" that is checmically
>based, and not magnetic media. Your use of the term in your post
>appears to confuse the two, and I don't understand your
>reference that the "film should be processed under rigorously
>controlled conditions". I sense that English may not be your
>primary language, and perhaps this is a translational problem.


Steve,

As editor and writer for major photography magazines I have
always insisted that the term "film", whether noun or verb, not
be used when referring to video. I think using it in that way is
improper and only leads to confusion like this.

When using a video camera you are "shooting video", "video
taping", or maybe just "videoing", but you are not filming.

Similarly, a person who does this is a videographer, not a
cinematographer. I suppose both could be called "cameraman",
since a camera is involved in both cases.

Bob








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                  Re: Use of "Film" When Referring To Video

From: "Steven W. Kaeser" <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 17:06:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 18:38:31 -0400
Subject: Re:  Use of "Film" When Referring To Video

>Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 11:21:45 -0400 (EDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>>Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 07:58:54 -0400
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage

>>I'll refrain from snipping this post as I reply to a couple of
>>points.

><snip>

>>>>>The film should be processed under rigorously controlled
>>>>>conditions (if it has not already been processed commercially).
>>>>>If the camera is available but empty, the same operations should
>>>>>be conducted wit a film of the same type as the original.

>>>>What film? I've seen no comments to indicate that this was a
>>>>"film", but was video taped with a hand-held Camcorder.

>>>I understand that you haven't seen another facts. The term
>>>'video filming' is commonly used by many professional video
>>>editors and processing center units. A video filming device same
>>>as the CCD video camera that was used in the Mexico's City UFO
>>>video.

>>If you use the word "film" as a verb (as in the example you
>>mention), it applies to video taping, but not when used as a
>>noun. "Processing" film refers to "film" that is checmically
>>based, and not magnetic media. Your use of the term in your post
>>appears to confuse the two, and I don't understand your
>>reference that the "film should be processed under rigorously
>>controlled conditions". I sense that English may not be your
>>primary language, and perhaps this is a translational problem.


>Steve,

>As editor and writer for major photography magazines I have
>always insisted that the term "film", whether noun or verb, not
>be used when referring to video. I think using it in that way is
>improper and only leads to confusion like this.

>When using a video camera you are "shooting video", "video
>taping", or maybe just "videoing", but you are not filming.

>Similarly, a person who does this is a videographer, not a
>cinematographer. I suppose both could be called "cameraman",
>since a camera is involved in both cases.

>Bob

Bob and Errol-

I don't disagree, and if we all adopt this standard it will make
communication much easier.  But at some point common usage will
impact the official definitions we use, and I'm afraid it may be
too late as far as the use of "film" as a verb is concerned.

I feel that if the issue I raised had not been addressed,
confusion regarding whether or not there was "film" involved in
the Mexico City Video might have developed.

Steve






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   Sep > Sep 7

                           Re: Black Helicopters?

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 12:04:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 18:35:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Helicopters?


>Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 12:29:35 +0100
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Keith Stevens <k.stevens@virgin.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Black Helicopters?

>>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Black Helicopters?
>>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:51:42 -0500

>>Why do so many revel in their fantasies of what constitutes
>>legal and illegal aircraft markings?

><snip>

>>Many
>>military planes are now marked in deep black on their dark grey
>>surface. And, any dunce driving by a military airfield in the
>>past few years would have to notice that more and more aircraft
>>are giving up their camo schemes for some dark shade of grey.

>May I be allowed a few moments of your time to clear up a few
>points here.

>I'm not really interested in what constitutes a legal/illegal
>aircraft marking, just what markings a Helicopter does or does
>not carry during an alleged Black Helo sighting. I personally do
>not harbor any form of overt or covert fantasies regarding
>them.I simply want the facts.

>This particular 'Dunce' lives a fair number of miles from our
>one and only RAF/Military Airfield, i.e. RAF Aldergrove. This
>RAF Base has an extended perimeter, with roads in the area
>closed to civilian traffic etc and, it is patrolled by the
>Military. It is possible to carry out limited observation of the
>Aircraft park from the adjacent Belfast International Airport,
>closer examination is-not-recommended ;) I envy you your implied
>freedom of observation.Some of us do not have that luxury, even
>in a Democratic Society, remember that.

>Based on local observation, the Green/Grey Camo' still is very
>much in fashion.I am not sure what 'deep black' is, I was always
>lead to believe that Black was/is Black. Once again I am only
>interested in obtaining the facts regarding these alleged
>sightings, if anyone would care to pass on to me there
>experiences, I would be grateful.

Get thee to an air show... At the Houston air show last October,
half of the Helo's were in some form of black with no easily
seen markings...

Get thee to a paint store... We have varieties of black that
will make your head spin...

Here in the States we have aircraft bases in the flat scrub
deserts where it is impossible to hide aircraft from the public.
Many elsewhere have surrounding hills and mountains offering a
good view of the planes...

Bye...  Ted..







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   Sep > Sep 8

              Re: Mexico City Footage - Reply From VideoMeister

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 19:06:14 PDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 02:40:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City Footage - Reply From VideoMeister


Dear List,

I received the following error message when I tried to email a
reply VideoMeister. He/She had emailed me with a response to my
query on the vertical/horizontal grid of CCD receptors in a
video camera that may account for some image anomoly. His/Her
message to me is printed below the error message and appears of
interest to people. It does, however make me ask, still, whether
the possibly relatively motionless (to the CCD) image of the UFO
should have shown any smear at all (sorry- graphics just isn't
my thing).

Is anyone able to confirm a correct email address for the
VideoMeister?

******************************************************
Error message to email reply:-

  Message-id: <19980908014700.15981.qmail@hotmail.com>
  Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 18:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
  From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>  To:
JSAINIO@QGRAPH.COM
  Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage
Your message cannot be delivered to the following recipients:
  Recipient address: JSAINIO@QGRAPH.COM
  Reason: Remote SMTP server has rejected address
  Diagnostic code: smtp; 553 5.7.1 you are not allowed to use this
address: JSAINIO@QGRAPH.COM  Remote system: dns; racerx.qgraph.com
(TCP|206.158.124.5|1180|161.49.28.200|25) (racerx.qgraph.com -- Server
ESMTP [PMDF V5.1-10 #24057]) (racerx.qgraph.com)

Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 20:03:50 -0600 (CST)
From: HiSpeedVideoMeister beep 838-7647 <JSAINIO@qgraph.com>
Subject: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage
Cc: leanne_martin@hotmail.com, brumac@compuserve.com


******************************************************

VideoMeister Message:-

Your concern about the relative edge sharpness of the UFO and
buildings is a good point. To control for this, I checked
against both the nearby building and a far one (with the
triangular shape). The UFO edge sharpness is intermediate
between the nearby and far buildings. Both buildings showed
motion-smearing; the far one showed more, as expected from
theory. (The reason is complicated, having to do with stochastic
noise, digitizing, and thresholds.)

So I eliminated edge-contrast as a possibility for creating the
UFO lack of smearing.








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                             UFO Web Site Links

From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@foto.infi.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 22:03:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 02:49:06 -0400
Subject: UFO Web Site Links

I am seeking to exchange links with other UFO websites.

Email me at swduncan@foto.infi.net

Thanks.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Stefan Duncan
Director of XPI
Editor of AUFON
5396 Sumac Circle
Fayetteville, N.C. 28304
swduncan@foto.infi.net
http://www.aufon.com
ICQ 11878618
(910-425-2976)








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                            Re: Black Helicopters

From: Steven Mark Ledbrook <ledbrook@mpx. com. au>
Date: Mon,  7 Sep 1998 23:46:25 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 02:58:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Helicopters


Several weeks ago while delivering a digital piano for the music
store I worked for at the time brought me to the Sydney suburb
of St Ives. I had missed a turn off and had to turn around in a
side street, as I made the turn I glaced through the windshield
of my car to see two helicopters flying in Wing Man formation.

As I am an avid flyer myself, with about ten hours in a glider I,
am particulary interested in all aircraft and am familiar with
the required port and starboard light required by international
law.

The thing which struck me as strange was the fact that these two
choppers were not displaying any lights. A red tail rotor light
or underside strobe was not visable on either helecopter. They
were black in colour and flew from the East to the West towards
Paramatta. The helicopters were flying at a low altitude, as best





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   Sep > Sep 8

                               Black Triangle?

From: Roy Hale <roy_hale@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 21:17:31 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 03:04:14 -0400
Subject: Black Triangle?

>From roy_hale@yahoo.com.uk

Hi All,

Can anyone give me the statistics of how many sightings of the
Flying Triangle have been recorded since the start of the year?

UK Only Please.

           Please e-mail me on the above
*******************************************************
                Quote of the month:
"How long do you say you have been coming here"

                     Regards
                     Roy..






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                      Clarification To The List Members

From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 23:52:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 03:06:20 -0400
Subject: Clarification To The List Members

Dear list members,

I present my apologies to all of you, my intention was not to
disturb but to participate with clear and documented
expositions.

I really tried hard to stay 'on the line' about the Mexico City
UFO Video analysis, I exposed my personal opinion regarding the
anonymous video origin and I repeat that if we don't have the
original videotape then we can't be right when doing any
analysis of frames, pictures, video stills, etc...

I participated as much as my knowledge let me support or deny
any information posted in this list. I believe I presented my
points of view and always provided the source or the facts that
I could support in my posts.

I repeat here, in my intent as a researcher to reach the truth
and that analyzing any material different from the original is
in vain. I always try to be objective and unprejudiced. As an
investigator I must use first my common sense.

My intervention purpose was only to cooperate in the search of
the truth regarding the evidence showed by some members in the
list who provide interesting topic observations, and others who
distorted my posts intention deviating the attention to other
topics like 'film', 'filming' 'video filming' in which I did my
best to search and reach conclusive results in general.

I was very clear when I stated 'Another notation' in the post
about the term 'video filming' I was talking about FILMING check
please if you keep record of the posts and check my message:

I am sorry to disturb but I have the right to defend my truth.

<quote> Subject:  Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Mexico City UFO Footage
Date:     The, 03 Seep 1998 17:56:51 -0500 From:     Alex Franz
<alcione@mail.serve.com>

>Another notation, if you film and follow a body in movement
with >any COMMON filming device the adjacent static objects
should appear >as blured or deformated,(TAPE and CAMERA SPEED
must be considered). <end of quote>

I said 'film' and 'filming device' which happens to be any
filming camera. Please read well again, I won't spite to any of
you.

I searched the Net with Altavista about the term 'video filming
device' and found 1,491,490 matches, most of the resulting sites
make use of the term 'video filming' as I checked out. I can
show them to you but the list is very long. Try by yourself and
if I'm wrong or lie don't hesitate and expose me.

My native language is Spanish, I also speak little English,
German, French and Italian. I always have my dictionary and
translator at hand but as you can see my intent doesn't work
very well. I think the point is not about translation terms but
of mere
logical deduction.

Regards,

Alex Franz
alcione.org






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                 UFO Sightings Lake Waccamaw, North Carolina

From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@foto.infi.net>
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 01:45:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 03:41:01 -0400
Subject: UFO Sightings Lake Waccamaw, North Carolina


UFO Landings, Little Man, Abductions, Reported Happening In A Small
Community By Lake Waccamaw, N.C.

by Stefan Duncan


During a routine trip to Lake Waccamaw on Aug. 29th for an
evening of observations, I was told a person in Hallsboro, N.C.,
several miles west of the lake has been having UFO sightings,
including an encounter with a "little man."

This lady, who asked for her name to be anomalous, is a
prominent figure of the county along with her husband. I
interviewed the woman, whom we will call Haley, and recorded the
discussion on audio tape.

These events occurred off of Honey Hill Road.

"In 1972. I have been living away and I moved back home. You
know how on TV you hear that whirring sound that is symbolical
of an UFO. Well, first of all I haven't even thought of a UFO.
But, you hear of all of this on TV. You hear this thing and you
say, gee that's weird.

"I was living next door to mom and dad's in Hallsboro. I heard
this noise. I didn't think anything else about it. I got ready
for bed. Because I live alone I kept a pistol by my night table
because it is right by me.  And if anything moved, you know my
intent was, I'd shoot it. You come in my ouse  - I shoot you,
because I am very nervous. I don't like living alone.

"I am laying there and I am sound asleep and I have this
distinct impression there is somebody looking at me. I was
sleeping with a couple of pillows behind my head almost in an
upright position.  I opened my eyes.

"It was a little man. I call him my little man. He was about
four feet. He was not a grey. He was more  like a slit mouth, a
flatter face. All I saw was his face, basically, because he was
very short. His eyes were slits. But, the thing I remember about
him was his smile. It was very sweet. There was no fear. And I
looked at him and I smiled. It was like, hey, this is cool,
everything is fine. There was no fear. I'm awakened in the
middle of the night. There's this thing at the end of my bed
that looks like a little man.

 There is a sense of calm about me there is no fear.  I look at
this and I smile and my little man smiles and I look at my
nightable with the gun, but never think of the gun, never am
afraid, because I think, hey, I'm dreaming. I look back he's
still down there, he smiles, I smile.

"When I look back he is gone.  I just go immediately back to
sleep with absolutely no fear. I slept. It is later on and I go,
gee, there was a little man in my room last night. This is not
the kind of thing you tell about to people.

"When I saw an object... I came home in October, 1987. My
husband was still at the office. It was very dark. There was no
moon out, very cold. As I started to turn in the drive way I
looked at my right to my neighbor's house. Behind their house,
right at the edge of the woods, is a  huge bright white light. I
thought, what is this? I mean it's not a street light, they
don't have a night light.

"And, I see this huge big light right above the tree top level.
So I backed my car out of the drive way. I went back down to the
other house where my cousin lives. I honked the horn very
loudly. The guy came out, my cousin's son. I asked if his mother
was home. He said no she wasn't. Now this is a guy that never
says anything.

"He is very very quiet. I said come and go with me I want you to
see something. So we go back up there. We go up a road beside
the house by the field. We are sitting there and we see this
white light. Then, it starts very quietly - I put the windows
down - very silently come right toward us. I did not get out of
the car. He did. It came over my car. It was so low that we
could see the underbelly of it when it passed over my hood.

"He could see it all. He said he could see inside of it, that it
had a lot of windows. Well then, it goes across behind my house
so we then pulled out of my driveway, go back, take a left and
proceed to follow it. So, we got up to the end of the road and
take a right. It is hovering over a clear field. We pull into
the driveway of a house by the field. And, I see the lady there
and she says, yeah, that is an UFO.  Now, I saw the windows on
the side. It was cylinderal. It was big as a football field. It
had two huge lights at each end. It was lighted from inside with
what appeared to be windows on the side. They were a row of tiny
little windows.

"And I said, well look at it. It started moving. We started to
follow it and she decided to go with us. Her brother was there,
and at that time he was about 70. She said he would not go
because many, many years when he was a young man, he was
abducted.

"And he said to her, he felt they were coming after him. Now,
this is what the woman said to me.

"Well, we proceed to follow this thing and we follow this thing
all the way to Hallsboro to the school, it was on the far side
of the football field. We are sitting in the car, watching it,
and it is still very very low. Then all of a sudden, we said,
well, it is not moving, we are just going to go.

"So, when we leave it followed us.   If followed behind our car
at treetop level. We go back home. I drop the guy off. And, I
take the lady home. And I see my husband. He can't get in the
house. He did not have a key. I said look at this. He said,  I
don't want to be bothered. This is ridiculous. There's no such
thing. "Well, the following week, the same time on a Friday
night. My husband is home. I say to my husband. You know you
don't believe me. You don't think I saw anything. Let's go
outside and see if we can see it.

"We go out and stand in the middle of the road. And sure enough
I look up, but it is really, really far up. We get the
binoculars and I tell my husband there it is I see it. I mean it
is really up and is not tree top level anymore.

"We look at it in the binoculars and it is rotating with
different colors lights. Then it does a dancing jig. It goes up
and down and up and down. You know aerobatics actually.

And so then, our neighbors come out and ask what we are doing.
And we are looking at this. Well, you look. They see it. Another
neighbor comes by and sees it. I tell her to blink her car
lights. Let's signal it.

"She blinked her carlights. Well, all of a sudden, my husband
turns his back and says, I'm going, nothing is happening. And
all of sudden, he whirls around and he says, 'Oh, my God! Look!'


"And here is this huge cylindrical object at tree top level,
silently crossing the road again making no absolutely no sound
with two huge lights at each end of it. And he and I, proceed to
run toward it. Because there is a sense of safety and security.
It made me think of a scripture in the Bible when Elizah went to
heaven on the big wheel or something. I found it was a religious
experience. It just kept going at treetop level. We could not
catch it. We turned around and went back to where everyone else
is standing. And a car drives up, and it is the neighbor's
husband who asked, ' What are you guys doing out here in the
street?'

"We told him what happened. He said, that is so strange, just as
I was driving up my radio and everything went out on my car. So
then, we got in his car. We tried to find it. But we could not
find it.

"I think it will come back.

"Down on this same road. I go to this Bible Study and I have to
drive through these woods by myself. So I am coming home from
Bible Study one night and just before you enter the woods. The
minister was driving in front of me. I pulled over and said, did
you see it?  He yeah, I see it all the time.

"We pulled up to his house because he lived up above me. I had
to go a mile in my car by myself. I am in my car and you know
when you look in the passenger window out of the peripheral
vision, for you to see anything has to be low. Well, I am
driving along and in my peripheral vision I look and this thing
is coming down and setting down in the woods.

"And when I see that I am terrified, I accelerate my car fast as
it could go. I went home. It scared me so bad I quit going to
Bible Study because I would not go through those woods by
myself. I remembered how the car cuts off..."

(1998)

"My nephew and this little girl came to live with us for a
while. We are talking about this and I see this thing in the
back of the house one night. I told him about it. And I said,
you know, I think it is here. There it is. There is one of them.

" I tell them, let's go see it, let's go see if we can find it.
We start down the woods because I remember where the last one
landed. We drive down there just to see if we can see anything.
And as I am driving before we got there, I had never felt such
an ominous feeling... such a sense of absolute terror in my
life. And I told those kids.. I said, uh, uh... we are - I still
get goosebumps talking about that one - we are going back. I
said this is not good. This is bad. We don't want to know about
this. So, we returned and went back home. I was really
frightened. I real sense of fear.

"Usually it is October they come. Yes. I see them. I see them.
But, I don't pursue them. They are always high up. I don't
signal. I don't do anything anyway because of that experience
when I was so frightened. I don't try to contact anymore because
I don't know who I am going to contact."

The area where the UFO has been landing, Haley pointed out, was
now cleared of trees. The woods are further back from the road
now.

Several of the sightings that Haley reported were reported by
others and published in the local newspaper. XPI will be
launching an investigation by attempting to interview others
Haley mentioned and others in the community. We will also find
out who owns the land where the UFO had landed.

Haley has the number to XPI and is instructed to call us the
moment the UFO is sighted.

Lake Waccamaw is 30 miles west of Wilmington.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Stefan Duncan
Director of XPI
Editor of AUFON
5396 Sumac Circle
Fayetteville, N.C. 28304
swduncan@foto.infi.net
http://www.aufon.com
ICQ 11878618
(910-425-2976)









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                      Ed Fouche Responds To Tim Mathews

From: Ed Fouche <fouche@connecti.com
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 16:29:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 02:22:47 -0400
Subject: Ed Fouche Responds To Tim Mathews


RE: Alien Rapture - The Chosen by Edgar Fouche & Brad Steiger.

You will find Tim Matthew's comments about 'Alien Rapture',
which he has not read, but considers himself an authority of in
part I, along with my comments via Brian C are included.

In Part II you will find Mr. Dave Rudiak's comments to Tim.

Tim says in part II: "Just a minute. Both you and Napoleon,
sorry Fouche, are making assumptions. In fact you are supporting
this manipulator's wild speculations. Fouche is making it all up
as we all know. Did you know he's a direct descendent of
Napoleon? That's what he's claiming."

In my Presentation posted on UFO Mind, and MSN UFO Forum, and
bio in the book and on fouchemedia.com, I have simply stated
that Joeseph Fouche was the head of Napoleon's secret and
national police. I am a descendent of Joeseph Fouche, not
Napoleon.

If I couldn't read and understand any better than Tim, I'd keep
my mouth shut. "A closed mouth gathers no feet."

A debater who twists facts and misquotes his sources comes
across as ignorant and ill informed.

If you take the time to read Alien Rapture and the presentation
I gave at the UFO Congress, you'll see that Tim has misquoted
and taken out of context. I was recently invited to give a
presentation to the Tesla society in Denver, but had to decline
due to conflicting appearances. I stand by what I have said in
the past about the flying triangle being a Top Secret USAF
vehicle.

Sincerely
Ed Fouche

----------------------------------------------------------------
PART I.
----------------------------------------------------------------
A letter from Brian C. in regards to the Matthews slur.

Brian: Since Ed Fouche isn't on the Updates email list, and
since I just happened to know his email address, I forwarded him
Tim Matthews's posting critiquing his book Alien Rapture and his
talk at the Laughlin UFO Congress.

Ed responded within an hour or two answering Tim's comments.
I've appended his response below. I'm taking no sides in this; I
just figure critical reviews deserve a hearing from BOTH sides.

I've edited Ed's response only as as required to conform to the
line length requirements for postings to Updates. For those of
you unfamiliar with the book Alien Rapture, see web site
http://fouchemedia.com

Here's the note Ed prepended on his response to me regarding
Tim's review:
Brian

----------------------------------------------------------------

Ed Fouche's response to Brian regarding Matthews slur.

Dear Brian:

Thanks for the input. I expect no less from some people. This is
why the Ufology group never gets anywhere. Everyone attacks
everybody else. I have not said one negative thing about other
researchers or writers in this field. Everyone is entitled to
his or her opinion.

But some try to promote their own ideas and book by putting down
others. Sort of like an insecure bully in school don't you
think. The bottom line to his rebuttal is his bottom line:

Tim: "FIND OUT ABOUT THE BOOK THEY FAILED TO BAN! "UFO
REVELATION - THE SECRET TECHNOLOGY EXPOSED!" BY TIM MATTHEWS OUT
VERY EARLY 1999. IT'S GONNA KICK ASS!"

Ed: I really don't care what he thinks. I wrote the truth as I
knew it, and indeed I did not do research for this book and had
only read Project Blue Book many years before. I did not want to
copy anyone else's opinion. The presentation I gave at Laughlin,
the UFO Congress, has very little to do with the book. However,
I will take two minutes and answer a couple of his points.
Please feel free to forward this to anyone who is interested,
including the Ass Kicking Tim.

Sincerely
Ed Fouche

----------------------------------------------------------------

And here is Ed's response to Tim Matthews ramblings.


Tim: I have been reading this Edgar Fouche stuff. Alien Crapture
more like!

Ed: Of course he hasn't read the book, that would take too much
energy.

Tim: It is utter nonsense as I show below with just a few quick
examples. The first thing to say is that most of the correct
technical details - there are always a few in disinformation or
science fiction - could have been gleaned from any half-decent
textbook on military affairs or through the most casual perusal
of a book or article by Bill Sweetman.

Ed: Perhaps, but when have you had the details of the operations
at Groom, especially the goggles that visitors wear. Ask a few
USAF Test Pilots, and SR-71 pilots who flew into or out of
Groom. Why hasn't anyone before me mentioned the details that
are in Alien Rapture? Because not one of these so called
insiders were inside.

Tim: My view is simply this. The whole thing has to make sense
and basic concepts must be presented correctly in order for the
account to be credible.

Ed: This was a simple presentation put together with my own
personal slides. No doctoral thesis was intended. Just an
overview of what I know.

Tim: 1 - The other semi-anonymous characters referred to by EF
have conveniently died or are not available for comment. Rule 1
of BS is to ensure that sources cannot be checked.

Ed: These 'characters', are personal friends whom I have known
20 to 30 years. Three very important people have met them and
can verify their existence. I'm sorry two of my dear friends
died before you could try and ridicule them in order to promote
your KICK ASS book. This is a little petty, even for someone
trying to promote their KICK ASS book.

Tim: OK - perhaps somebody might want to talk about something
but given the very definite compartmentation resulting from US
security and classification procedures there is NO WAY that any
of these people would be able to present so much of the picture
about any classified project.

Ed: That's what they said about Woodard and Bernstein. I claim
no special investigative powers. Just contacts within the DoD
and special programs who trust me enough to talk to me.

Tim: 2 - It is simply not credible under any circumstances for
EF to claim that he was given permission to come out with this
information. Anyone breaking security protocols and being
discovered faces loss of clearance, loss of job and most likely
- imprisonment. Even if a problem arose with a particular worker
he/she may temporarily lose their clearance.

Ed: Bingo, the obvious! That is why the book had to be written
as fiction. No person writing about their secret experiences in
the government is writing NON FICTION. If they were, the hammer
would fall quickly.

Tim: 3 - From EFs account; "It was an unmanned reconnaissance
vehicle which took off from a B-52 bomber" etc. etc.

Ed: For your information, there are B-52s at Groom which are
currently used to drop special programs aircraft. You don't have
to R&D and FOT&E a new host aircraft. The B-52 is perfectly
adequate for the job.

Tim: I think he got this idea from the very public D-21 drone
which reached Mach 3 plus in the 1960s. No alien technology
there I'm afraid!

'Slide 53';
Story about SR-71 encountering a UFO. No evidence at all to back
this up. An SR-71 encountering such problems - said to include
serious pilot problems both in the air and upon landing - would
not have made it. Never said serious problems upon landing. Read
some books about operations and you'll see why. "SR-71 revealed"
by Graham (Motorbooks). A good starting point... No technical
details about SR-71 operation are mentioned and that's because
Fouche doesn't know any.

Ed: The SR-71 is old technology, what would you like to know
about it. I'm current, even of NASA using them for research. The
bringing them back, cutting the funds, etc. They are now
dismantling, and have been for a couple of months this program
in Lancaster CA. Why do you think the Air Force has fought this.
They don't need it. It was replaced.

Tim: SR-71 pilots hitting the bottle; absolute crap. The pilots
would have been booted out of the Squadron immediately.

Ed: You were obviously never in the military. Drinking is a way
of life; to cope, to self medicate. The US Military has the
highest functioning alcoholic rate except for Law Enforcement.
Just because you drink a lot at night, doesn't mean you can't
function during the day.

'Slide 55';
Tim: "A laboratory named DARC" sounds like sci-fi and totally
unnecessary. Again, the template appears to be DARPA - Advanced
Research Projects Agency. Again, what is 'super-secret'? Top
Secret ensures solid secrecy! There is no 'Above Top
Secret'......

Ed: NOPE. DARC does exist. Someday, soon I expect, everyone will
know this. Again, wrong. There are clearances above Top Secret.
Having had an SBI, EBI, and SPBI, I know. Not to mention SCIs.

Tim:"One operational TR3B is now stationed in Scotland, another
in Diego Garcia". Nonsense. Having spent a great deal of time
looking in RAF Macrahanish there is evidence to suggest previous
operations and maybe the very occasional landing of something
hush-hush - but nothing more. The facilities at DTEO West Freugh
are impressive and undoubtedly stuff has flown out of there but
no TR3B.

Ed: And how would he know. Ever been through all the hangers,
every day. Conjecture on his part.

Tim: There is NO EVIDENCE of a TR3B and EF is obviously unaware
that TR means Tactical Reconnaissance. He also shows a complete
lack of understanding of the Tier drones designations.

Ed: In the presentation and in Alien Rapture I use this term.
You missed it. Sorry, but you were in to much of a hurry to
promote your ASS KICK book. I also mention the TEIR program.

Slides 57, 58, 59.
Tim: Something has been recorded off the US West Coast
approaching Groom Lake at Mach 4. The SR-71 was almost certainly
not responsible and is not 'still breaking world speed records'.

Ed: The Ministry of Defense in England has admitted radar
tracking of vehicles from Mach 8 up to the limits of the radar's
capabilities. Read Nick Redfern's really kick ass book, he's a
pro and didn't have to attack anyone to get recognition for his
research.

Tim: SR-75; a model kit aircraft from testors. More fiction.

Ed: Wouldn't be the first time a model came out that was true.
Look at the B-2 model.

Tim: 'Hypersonic speeds start at approximately Mach 5'. Well
Mach 5.4 actually where the air stagnates in front of the air
vehicle but again a total lack of technical detail from a
supposed knowledgeable insider....

Ed: Yes it is. Mach 5.4, rounded off, is Mach 5. Besides,
depending on which text book you read, the figure goes from mach
5 to mach 5.6 It also depends on the vehicle's design.

Tim: 4 - Author's Note; "The MJ-12 documents presented in the
book were copyrighted also". Obviously fake documents (sorry
Stanton) copyrighted? I do wish we knew who they belonged to!

Ed: The documents were copyrighted in 1993 and 1994 with
inserts, to prove this information was out before the Autopsy
film and Corso's and other's claims.

Tim: Mention of the alien autopsy and Corso. Well we all know
what a load of bull Corso came out with - lots of factual
errors. Autopsy film? In tatters thanks to UK researchers.

Ed: I agree, the film was a fake. But it was made by the
government in Lancaster Texas for that purpose. The best lie is
the one closest to the truth. Courtesy of PSY OPS.

Tim: Slide 69; "TR3B Operational Version". Reducing the mass of
a nuclear generator by 89%? I don't think so.

Ed: Never said the mass of the nuclear generator was reduced
alone. Every thing within the Magnetic Field Disruptor
accelerator is reduced.

Tim: "With the vehicle mass reduced by 89% the craft can travel
at mach 9 vertically or horizontally. My sources say the
performance is limited only by the stresses that the human
pilots can endure. Which is a lot, really, considering along
with the 89% reduction in mass, the G forces are also reduced by
89%."Utter nonsense. Mass and g forces have no relationship to
each other. Regardless of so-called 'mass' the pilot would
suffer the g turns. As to travelling vertically 'at mach 9' with
a pilot. Forget about it!

Ed: Obviously. But if gravity is warped around the MFD
accelerator then the G forces would be reduced.

Tim: At mach 9 and travelling in a straight line g forces would
be no problem as such. Only when performing turns or evasive
maneuvers - fairly impossible at Mach 9 but no matter - would g
forces operate. Ed: "The crew of the TR3B should be able to
comfortably take up to 40Gs".

Ed: By reducing the G forces by 89 percent. Then the 40 G forces
would be reduced to approximately 4 Gs.

Tim: Are we really expected to take this seriously? Read any
basic aviation text; +/- 9g maybe, even 10g. get to between
12-18 g and you're talking UAVs.......

Ed: You sound like a nuclear physicist from the 50s debating
advanced programs of which you know nothing of. In 1935 how few
people really knew what the A Bomb would do if explodes. Even
Opinhiemer wasn't sure.

Tim: The reason that classified projects have concentrated upon
active camouflage is precisely because a plane at high speeds
might not be able to out-maneuver the new range of
near/hypersonic AA missiles - obviously g turns rule out evasive
action at such high speeds.....

Ed: ---and to reduce the reflected radar image. If you can't
see it, you can't shoot it. The ASPJ Program at ITT is an
example. If you see what I mean.

Slide 73;
Tim: "In the upper atmosphere with hydrogen propulsion and in
orbit with hydrogen/oxygen propulsion".

Ed: Wrong. Hydrogen won't burn by itself up there - No Sir! Yes,
but when mixed with Oxygen it will.

Slide 74;
Tim: He uses a computer graphic of the supposed TR3B despite
claiming to have access to the real thing??

Ed: You bet!

Slide 75;
Tim: !THE CLINCHER!

Ed: The thrilla in Manila again.

Tim: "From the evolution of exotic materials, advanced avionics
and newer propulsion engines the stealth aircraft were born".
This proves the guy is talking BS. Stealth has NOTHING TO DO
with avionics and engines.

Ed: You couldn't be further from the truth. Active stealth
coating Is electro chemical active and works with the Stealth
ECM suite. The electronics counter measures controls the active
stealth coating. It's not like a mood ring Matt.

Tim: Look at the F-117A. The low RCS was achieved through an
understanding of Ufimtsev's mathematics relating to the
reduction of an aircraft's radar cross section. The ONLY thing
of concern was to build a low RCS aircraft in order to
(initially) avoid Soviet SA-6 missile batteries and then to act
perhaps as a 'silver bullet'.

Ed: This was not the only concern. Trying to fly a non
aerodynamic vehicle was achieved with computers to control the
awkward flight dynamics.

Tim: Hence the 'Hopeless Diamond'. Faceting is not mentioned
re; stealth and neither is any other technical detail - which
suggest that he doesn't know any. I'm no expert but I know more
than he does!

Ed: Perhaps. But, I never claimed to be a know it all.

Tim: In terms of both the F-117A and B-2 the engines and
avionics are not the big issue. The F-117A now has a new
avionics suite but this has nothing' to do with stealth.

Ed: As I explained. WRONG again.

Tim: Stealth is not a new idea and many aviation writers note
the very strong possibility that the Horten Brothers flying wing
aircraft (late 1930s and early 1940s to 1945) with their
composite materials would have had a very low RCS. The testing
of captured aircraft such as this by the USAF and US Navy
through the later 1940s proved this.

Ed: The first time they used Chaff dispensers that was a form of
stealth. To block enemy radar tracking.

Tim:In fact original ideas of low observability are as old as
aircraft...

Ed: Yes, the color of an aircraft provides a modicum of
camouflage

Tim: EVEN by reading a basic book on stealth Fouche should have
known this. He is obviously making most of it up as he goes
along. Sorry - you've been rumbled. I hope the advanced was a
big one!

Ed: Didn't have to make up any of this stuff. It's all real Tim

Tim: 5 - No information on the US Navy even though they have
been involved in more black aircraft programmes than the USAF
and CIA put together. Last time I looked US Navy classified R+D
amounted to some $8 billion - more than the USAF. I'll check on
that but the point is that I have an official intel' doc (Sign)
admitting that the US Navy had an experimental a/c mistakenly
reported as a UFO. It used jet engines.

Ed: WRONG AGAIN, the USAF has the biggest Black Budget.

Tim: The Navy had operational saucers too and more information
on this is due to emerge in print very soon!

Ed: Yes, from your KICK ASS book, I presume. The AVRO saucers
were funded by the NRO (Navy) in case you didn't know. Read Dr.
Paul Hill's book, Unconventional Flying Objects. He was a NASA
UFO investigator for 30 years. He only got his book out because
his daughter took the manuscript to a publisher after his death.

Tim: Well folks this is just a brief comment upon second reading
of the talk supposedly given by Fouche at the Laughlin UFO
Conference just recently. I could call Fouche a liar but I think
he's just on the bandwagon.....the real classified Projects
people must really love him...... I challenge him and any of his
supporters to debate these issues either liv in front of an
audience or on a talk radio show.

Ed: I have, and I will continue to do so. This was not much of a
debate though.

Tim: Know what? They'll lose.

Ed: To the Great KICK ASS debater. Have a good day.

Tim: Tim Matthews - standing up for common sense and factual
analysis!

Ed: Common sense says you read someone's book before taking
shots. It's called research.

Tim: FIND OUT ABOUT THE BOOK THEY FAILED TO BAN! "UFO REVELATION
- * THE SECRET TECHNOLOGY EXPOSED!"

Ed: You can get arrested for exposing yourself, TIM.

Tim: * BY TIM MATTHEWS OUT VERY EARLY 1999. IT'S GONNA KICK
ASS!

Ed: In all sincerity. Tim has a right to his opinion. But, I
obviously disagree. When I have time I will respond in kind to
others. But I have a company to run. So I don't have time to
cruise the Internet and send out mass mailings to promote my
book like others. Please forgive the misspellings as I did not
take time to check them.
Ed Fouche

----------------------------------------------------------------
              PART II.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Dave Rudiak's Response to Tim's comments.

Tim:I have been reading this Edgar Fouche stuff. Alien Crapture
more like!

It is utter nonsense as I show below with just a few quick
examples. The first thing to say is that most of the correct
technical details - there are always a few in disinformation or
science fiction - could have been gleaned from any half-decent
textbook on military affairs or through the most casual perusal
of a book or article by Bill Sweetman.

Dave: Although there is good reason to be skeptical of Fouche's
book, which indeed could have been written after gleaning
information available through other books, I nevertheless must
take issue with the following totally unfounded criticisms by
Tim Matthews.

Slide 69; "TR3B Operational Version".

Tim: Reducing the mass of a nuclear generator by 89%? I don't
think so.

Dave: Fouche certainly isn't the first to propose that UFOs might
reduce their mass in order to achieve high maneuverability, high
linear acceleration, and hoverability. E.g., James MacCampbell
proposed this in his book "Ufology" some 25 years ago (but
proposed no mechanism to account how they might do so). And
recent theoretical work by Puthoff and Haisch as to the
fundamental origins of inertial mass leave the possibility open
that it can be manipulated.

Ed: "With the vehicle mass reduced by 89% the craft can travel
at mach 9 vertically or horizontally. My sources say the
performance is limited only by the stresses that the human
pilots can endure. Which is a lot, really, considering along
with the 89% reduction in mass, the G forces are also reduced by
89%."

Tim: Utter nonsense. Mass and g forces have no relationship to
each other.

Dave: Utter nonsense? That is one of the most fundamental
equations in all physics: Force =3D Inertial Mass * Acceleration.
You know, Newton's second law of motion, taught in the first
week of high school physics.

So if you reduce the inertial mass by 89%, the force experienced
by that mass undergoing an acceleration is likewise reduced by
89%. QED. That's all Fouche is claiming, and in this one
instance, the man is absolutely correct.]

Timie: Just a minute. Both you and Napoleon, sorry Fouche, are making
assumptions. In fact you are supporting this manipulator's wild
speculations. Fouche is making it all up as we all know. Did you
know he's a direct descendent of Napoleon?

That's what he's claiming. Off with his head I say! Your
possibilities are slim possiblities not facts. Don't mix the two
up.

In the case of the shuttle pilots they're going in a straight
(ish) line and not violently moving from side to side in a
'recovered technology' triangular craft horizontally and
vertically at mach 9.

Regardless of so-called 'mass' the pilot would suffer the g
turns.

Dave: True utter nonsense. Any "suffering" would be reduced by
89% if you reduce the mass by 89%. A 100 G turn at 100% ordinary
mass would be equivalent to an 11G turn at 11% reduced mass.

Tim: But I want Fouche to give us details about how this is done
please!!!

As to travelling vertically 'at mach 9' with a pilot.
Forget about it!

Dave: Why? Space shuttles do it all the time at even higher Mach
numbers.

Tim: You've missed the point entirely!

At mach 9 and travelling in a straight line g forces would be no
problem as such. Only when performing turns or evasive maneuvers
- fairly impossible at Mach 9 but no matter - would g forces
operate.

Dave: True, only when actually accelerating does the craft and
crew experience G- forces. The acceleration can be linear
(speeding up, slowing down) or when making turns (centripetal
acceleration).

Tim: Turns or vertical ascent? NOT the same thing! Horizontal flight
with a sudden vertical ascent at mach 9. Count me out! Talk
about Mr. Ketchup head!

Dave: But the real point is still this: the G-forces on craft
and crew during any acceleration are reduced by 89% if the
inertial mass is reduced by 89%. Some maneuverability at Mach 9
then becomes possible.

Tim: Yeah but Fouche is not talking about some. He's making all
kinds of wild claims in non-defence contractor language. No
doubt he'll argue that he's trying to make it easy for us!

Ed: "The crew of the TR3B should be able to comfortably take up
to 40Gs".

Tim: Are we really expected to take this seriously?

Ed: Absolutely. If you reduce the inertial mass by 89%, then the
crew only experiences .11*40 =3D 4.4 G's. That's pretty standard G
forces for military pilots (or astronauts to give another
example), who may pull 2 or even 3 times for brief periods in
extreme maneuvers. They could tolerate 4.4 G's standing on their
heads.

Tim: But how has this been acheived? Must be those aliens that
Fouche or Lazar or Lear have never seen......

Dave: Read any basic aviation text; +/- 9g maybe, even 10g. get
to between 12-18 g and you're talking UAVs.......

Tim: Again, it is quite obvious that Tim Matthews doesn't grasp
really BASIC Newtonian physics. If you reduce the mass, you
reduce the G-forces. Ergo 40 G's becomes 4.4 G's if you could
somehow reduce the mass 89%.

Tim: Yes, but HOW? More ifs and buts....No facts.....

Tim: The reason that classified projects have concentrated upon
active camouflage is precisely because a plane at high speeds
might not be able to out-maneuver the new range of
near/hypersonic AA missiles - obviously g turns rule out evasive
action at such high speeds..... If you see what I mean.

Dave: We see what you mean, but you are simply wrong in this
instance.

Tim: Well folks this is just a brief comment upon second reading
of the talk supposedly given by Fouche at the Laughlin UFO
Conference just recently. I could call Fouche a liar but I think
he's just on the bandwagon.....the real classified Projects
people must really love him...... I challenge him and any of his
supporters to debate these issues either live in front of an
audience or on a talk radio show. Know what? They'll lose.

Dave: Not in this instance. Mr. Matthews loses big time.

Tim: I don't think so.

Dave: There are other bones I could pick with Mr. Matthews
various statements in this and other posts, but his utter lack
of comprehension about the relationship between mass and G
forces just stuck out like a sore thumb. What is it with these
Brit

Tim: English actualy

Dave: UFO skeptics anyway? They're taught how to debate and
write, but don't any of them
take science and math courses?

Tim: Well actually do you know one way the military have done
it? By putting pilots in a prone position. This allows for 'g'
turns up to even 11 (I'm told) and that's it. Anything else is
just sci-fi at this stage but then Ufology is sci-fi...

What's with this handful of Americans who support every wild and
unproven theory?

I don't see Rudiak supporting Fouche's comments about hydrogen
in the upper atmosphere, MJ-12 (fake!), the Corso book, the
"TR-3B" his numerous mistakes about the SR-71 and so forth. He
also supports the 'Alien Autopsy' film. Another nail in the
coffin.

Yes, you just have to be skeptical. One day people like Mr
Rudiak will have to admit that this alien thing is a convenient
cover for the operation of a range of secret military aircraft
and other secret technologies.

Unlike the EThers we have REAL documents and real aircraft.
Why do we never hear anything about Project Silver Bug?

Of course I don't expect anyone especially Friedman, Clark and
co to change their minds and I don't expect people in the US to
ask many difficult questions about Roswell, the ETH, supposed
abductions because all these have combined together nicely with
anti-government paranoia to create a new religion for the late
Twentieth Century and the new Millenium.

The more I read about Fouche and his claims the more ridiculous
they seem. Extraordinary evidence? No - just extraordinary
claims supported by very little except an insistence that we
must believe.

Tim: Tim Matthews - standing up for common sense and
factual analysis! That's me!

Dave: Yeah, yeah. Tell us all about it. Like only the UFO
skeptics are for common sense and factual analysis. Funny how
their "facts" are so often complete rubbish as they arrogantly
criticize the pro-UFO faction.

Tim: There are objects described as UFOs - undoubtedly - but as
far as most sensible people are concerned no alien recovered
vehicles.

What a marvellous cover story for the retrieval of Soviet (in
the recent past) aircraft and experimental US airplanes.

Dave: I often disagree with the 'skeptics' - whoever they are -
because they trot out plenty of official propaganda.
BUT, as my mate Chris said to me last week, "don't bother
arguing the toss because you end up arguing with tossers".

Tim: I hope you pick up your CIA paycheck soon. Only joking!

FIND OUT ABOUT THE BOOK THEY FAILED TO BAN! " UFO REVELATION
-THE SECRET TECHNOLOGY EXPOSED!" BY TIM MATTHEWS OUT VERY EARLY
1999. IT'S GONNA KICK ASS!

Dave: Oh great! A British version of Kal Korff, complete with
the capitalized shouting and the self-promotional bragging how
his new book is going to rip the lid off of this or that.

Timmy: The advert obviously worked on you!

Dave: Actually, I'm not for ripping lids off anything much.

Tim: The book is OK and actually I rather like Kal Korff's expose of
that nut Billy Meier.

Dave: Like I said at the beginning, there is much to be
skeptical about Fouche, but the man shouldn't be attacked on
highly erroneous grounds. If I were to judge the Fouche claims
of inertial mass reduction, it would be on the basis of whether
the proposed mechanism made any sense. Fouche doesn't really
spell out the basic physical principle underlying this proposed
mass reducer.

Tim:: Because it probably doesn't exist and even if by some
quirk of fate the scientists working on classified projects had
developed similar technologies why should this be evidence of
alien disc recoveries!That would perhaps make it falsifiable and
subject to scientific analysis. Instead it's simply a claim that
can't be evaluated one way or another, and, therefore, could
simply be made up. And simply is made up like all the other crap
in his book.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Read for yourself: My presentation at the International UFO
Congress in Laughlin Nevada. Ed Fouche - Presentation by Edgar
Rothshild Fouche Copyright 1998 Fouche Media Associates


SLIDES: {1/Alien Head until I start then {2/Presented by slide

GOOD AFTERNOON:
My mother once told me that I was going to Hell if I didn't
change my ways. Judging from the heat outside, I'd say I'm not
too far from there.

SLIDES: {3/AF Thunderbird Aircraft, {4/Flags at Randolph AFB
My name is Edgar Rothschild Fouche.

SLIDE 5: MJ-12 Cover

I'm here to speak about Secret Government Technology, reverse
engineering of Alien Artifacts, and the Top Secret MJ-12
committee, which I write about in my new book, Alien Rapture -
The Chosen, with my co-author Brad Steiger. Brad is the author
of 143 published works including the Best Seller Project
Bluebook.

SLIDE 6: TR-3B

Before I'm through, you will know exactly what the Flying
Triangle is. The one that has been sighted around the world. It
is the world's most exotic and classified aerospace vehicle. It
could be stealthily hovering somewhere over Phoenix - Arizona,
Gulf Breeze - Florida, the country of Belgium, or your city.
I'll show you pictures of Air Force aircraft I've worked,
declassified aircraft, and pictures of classified aircraft never
before seen in public. I'll also explain how we came upon this
technology.

First I'll Share Some Of My Family Background:

I was born to fifth generation French-Americans, and many of my
relatives, for generations, have historically been involved with
the government, in fields of intelligence, black programs,
crypto, and classified development projects.

SLIDE 7: Joseph Fouche -Duke

This is true as far back as the French revolution where Joseph
Fouch=82 was the Prime Minister under Napoleon. He was the head of
the French secret National Police Force and a direct ancestor of
mine. Joseph Fouch=82 started and controlled the world's first
professionally organized intelligence agency with agents
throughout Europe.

SLIDES: {8/CIA Badge, {9/KGB mix, {10/Various Spy Logos

The CIA, the Russian KGB, the English MI-5, the Israeli Mossad,
and many other Intelligence Agencies, have used and expanded on
his methods of intelligence gathering, networking information,
and political survival.

Some French historians consider him a scoundrel because he
survived many of his leaders, including Napoleon.

SLIDE 11: Master Sergeant Fouche photo

My Career Background Spans 30 Years, and Since the government
isn't about to support my claims, you will see from the
positions I've held, and the Programs I worked, that I was in a
position to gather the information, I am presenting.: My first
job was as a machinist, making bombs for the USAF at R. G. Le
Tourneau Industries in Longview Texas. For the next 25 years, I
would be involved with the Department of Defense in one way or
another. After being drafted into the Vietnam conflict, I
initially went through a year of electronics, communications,
intelligence, and crypto-logical schools. During the years
1967-1974, I was stationed or worked at many Tactical Air
Command, Air Training Command, and Pacific Air Command Air
Forces bases. During the Vietnam conflict, I assigned to special
projects at Kadena AFB Okinawa; Udorn AFB Thailand; Ben Hoi AFB
Vietnam, and spent anywhere from a day to a month at many other
South East Asian military bases. With my training and
experiences with intelligence equipment, special electronics,
black programs, and crypto-logical areas, I received other
government opportunities. I filled positions as Major Command
Liaison, Headquarters manager, and DoD factory representative
for TAC, SAC, ATC, and PACAF following the Vietnam war. Later in
my career, as a manager of defense contractors, I dealt with
classified "black" programs developing state-of-the-art
Electronics, Avionics, and Automatic Test Equipment.

SLIDES: {12/Shop F-16 Radar, {13/Test Equipment shop,
{14/repair of LANTIRN unit

I was considered an Air Force expert with classified electronics
counter-measures test equipment, crypto-logical equipment owned
by the National Security Agency, and Automatic Test Equipment. I
worked with many of the leading military aircraft and
electronics manufacturers in the US. I participated as a key
member in design, development, production, and
Flight-Operational-Test and Evaluation in classified Aircraft
development programs, state-of-the-art avionics, including
electronic countermeasures, satellite communications,
crypto-logicaland support equipment.

During my military career, I was "hand picked" (Development
Cadre) for many of the Air Force's newest fighter and bomber
development programs. I was cadre for:

SLIDES: {15/F111, {16/F-15 going up, {17/A-10 bottom, {18/4
F-16s, {19/B-1, show when named
the F-111 swing-wing fighter-bomber
the F-15 Eagle air superiority fighter
the A-10 Wart-hog close air support fighter and tank killer
the F-16 Falcon fighter
and the B-1 Lancer Bomber.

Other research and development programs I worked as far back as
the 70s are still classified Top Secret. I received over 4,000
hours of technical training from the military and government, of
which about half was classified training.

SLIDE 20: F-22 Raptor

This is a picture of the new Boeing-Lockheed F-22 Raptor, ATF or
Air Dominance Fighter. My involvement with black programs
developing stealth aircraft is classified. I am perhaps the only
person who has actually worked at the Top Secret Groom Lake Air
Base, within Area-51 of the Nellis Range, and written about it.

SLIDE 21: F-117 Stealth Fighter tested at Groom at night with
fog engines in work for cover.

I spent twenty years working directly for the US Air Force and
DoD Agencies followed by another eight years as a Defense
Contractor Manager. My last position for the Air Force was as a
Strategic Air Command Liaison

SLIDE 22: SR-71 3D Wire Frame

As a Defense Contractor-Manager; I performed as an Engineering
Program Manager and Site Manager for DOD contractors involved in
classified development, logistics support, electronic
engineering, and technical data development from 1987-95. I am
now CEO of Fouche Media Associates, which I run with my
beautiful wife, Rebecca. I am also the inventor of Neurosync
MIME, a behavior modification software using hypnotic
Entrainment and Subliminal Messages.

SLIDE 23: AR Book Cover

I wrote Alien Rapture - The Chosen in 1994 and 95, after my last
trip to California, New Mexico, and Nevada.

I undertook this trip to do research for the Alien Rapture,
which included a meeting with five close friends who had agreed
to release confidential information to me, and discuss their
closely guarded personal experiences. I also interviewed other
contacts who had worked classified programs or flown classified
military aircraft to gather information about UFO sightings and
contact.

At this point I was blessed with teaming up with a great man and
a great writer, Brad Steiger. I had decided to get out of the
Defense Industry, as I felt that fraud, waste, and abuse was
rampant, both on the government and contractor sides.

I wanted to work for myself as a writer and develop some product
ideas that I had. So far I've been a terrible boss, I've worked
myself long hours, without many benefits, and the salary is
meager, compared to what I made as an Engineering Program
Manager.

WHO WERE THE FIVE FRIENDS AND CO- CONSPIRATORS and a host of
other insiders, You may ask?

It started when some old friends of mine, met in the spring of
1990 in Las Vegas. There were five of us then, all who had
remained close following the Vietnam War. I've always been the
networker for my DoD, Military, and Contractor friends, so I'm
the one who set up the meeting.

I. The First friend, Jerald, was a former NSA or National
Security Agency TREAT Team member. TREAT stands for Tactical
Reconnaissance Engineering Assessment Team.

He worked for the DOE or Department of Energy as a National
Security Investigator. That was his cover, but he really worked
for the NSA. His job required him to 'watch employees' with Top
Secret and "Q" clearances at the Nevada Test Site and the Nellis
Range which includes Area 51. Area 51 is where the most
classified aerospace testing in the world takes place. You may
know the base as Groom Lake Air Base, Watertown, the Ranch, or
Dream-Land. He was found dead of a heart attack a year after our
last meeting.

II. The Second friend, Sal, was a person who had worked directly
for the NSA with Electronic Intelligence (E lent) and became a
Defense Contractor after his retirement.

SLIDE 24: SR-71 Spy Plane - black with red stripes.

III. The Third friend, Doc, was a former SR-71 spy plane pilot
and a USAF test pilot at Edwards Air Force Base.

IV. The Fourth friend, Dale, and I were in the service together
during the Vietnam conflict, and I've known him since the early
70s. His father worked for over 20 years for the NSA and he is
the one who sent me the MJ-12 documents his father had obtained.
I'll discuss the MJ12 documents last.

V. The Fifth friend, Bud, was a DoD Contractor and Electronics
Engineer. He had worked on Top Secret development programs
dealing with Electronic Counter Measures, Radar Homing and
Warning, ECM Jammers, and Infrared Receivers. He retired as a
Program Manager and later died of a brain tumor within 30 days
after his symptoms appeared.

SLIDE 25: TR-1 black glider - over clouds

I also received input from four other SR-71 pilots, two U-2
pilots, a TR-1 pilot, and about two dozen bomber and fighter
jocks. I got the picture of the TR-3B from a person in this
latter group.

SLIDE 26: TR-3 flying triangle - side view

At the time, I had no intention of writing about programs I was
involved with due to the Secrecy Act and classification
documents I had signed. I'd had my fill of working with the
government, military, and defense contractors.

However, it bothered each of us that we'd had experiences with
unusual phenomena, extremely advanced technology, and witnessed
Unidentified Aerial Contact, that had not been previously
reported.

As we sat at a table in a dark corner, of the Silver Dollar
Saloon and Casino in Las Vegas, discussing our experiences and
swapping knowledge. Each of the group of five assured me that,
they had enough confidence in me, to believe that I could write
the story about their guarded experiences.

We agreed to get together again the next year with the
understanding that I would contact each of them to set up the
meeting. In the meantime, each member of the group, including
myself, was to write down as much information as he could
remember about unusual phenomena and personal sightings.

Many of the things the group revealed to me were startling: I
used this information to piece together the story now titled,
Alien Rapture - The Chosen.

I'll Share some of these Secrets and Unusual Phenomena with you:

SLIDE 27:
SR-71 with gold plasma ball on wingtip

The SR-71 was designed as a spy plane for the CIA in the 60s and
designated the A-12. The Mach 3 plus aircraft first flew in
1962, taking off from Groom AFB in Area 51. Later, once the Air
Force operated it as a reconnaissance plane, it was designated
the SR-71 black-bird.

My friend, Chuck, a SR-71 pilot, related to me an in-flight
incident he had in the 1970s. He was returning from a
reconnaissance flight, and, while at an altitude of 74,000 feet
and at the speed of almost Mach 3, (3 times the speed of sound)
he noticed something flickering in his peripheral vision.
Hovering over his left wing tip was a ball of dense plasma-like
light. It was so bright, that when he stared at it for more than
a few seconds, his eyes hurt

SLIDE 28: SR-71 red arrow pointed to air inlet spike.

Chuck tried to use his UHF-HF and VHF communications sets to no
avail. There was nothing but static. Repeatedly glancing briefly
at the ball of light, he watched in amazement as it moved
effort-less-ly about his aircraft

At one point the light positioned itself a few feet in front of
the large spiked cone at the air Intake Inlet. The enormous
amount of air rushing into the engines should have sucked in,
and shredded almost anything in its path, but the light orb was
mysteriously unaffected.

SLIDE 29: SR-71 with gold plasma ball on wingtip again

The light, he noted, acted in a curious manner, if something
inanimate could act at all. It moved from time to time to other
parts of the vehicle, staying with him until his approach to
Beale AFB in California. He was in sight of the Air Base when
the light swung away from his aircraft in a wide arch with ever
increasing speed.

Of course, after reading his incident report, his Operations
Commander told him not to ever speak about his experience. When
Chuck related the story to me, he told me he was absolutely
convinced, that the ball of light was controlled by some form of
intelligence. I have about two dozen stories from pilots of
similar in flight incidents with UFOs and plasma balls.

SLIDE 30: TR-3B triangle schematic diagram with Top-Bottom-Side
views

Have You Ever Heard Stories about Missing Memory?

Sal worked a program, for almost two years, in a Top Secret
Research Facility in California. At the end of the program he
started having flu-like symptoms, and after several days of
worsening symptoms, he went to the doctor. His company doctor
prescribed some medication and sent him home for two days of
rest. When Sal got up on the third morning to go to work, he
couldn't remember where he worked, or who he worked for. His
brother called his company, and asked what he should do.

The person at the company related, that my friend had been
terminated because his contract had run out. To this day, the
only thing Sal knows about that project, is from his notes, pay
records, and letter of offer when he was hired. The company in
question was involved with developing the TR-3B gravity
disruption device called the MFD. His paranoia now exceeds my
ability to describe it.

Has Anyone Ever Heard of the super strong foil like Material recovered after=
 the Roswell Crash?

Another friend who worked for General Dynamics in Fort Worth,
TX, described a program in which he worked with a plasma
accelerator in the mid-60s researching gravity warping
techniques. He is a physicist by education and work experience.
This was his first Top Secret Program. He described a foil-like
material, much like the material that was reported discovered
after the Roswell Crash. He described the foil as 12 layers of
material, less than ten thousandths of an inch thick. It was as
flexible as a plastic trash bag, but virtually indestructible to
piercing, burning or cutting.

In order to cut the material used for the project, the material
was super cooled, a large electrical charge was applied to
polarize the molecular structure, and then a laser cutter was
applied. Large ribbons of this material were used to reinforce
the accelerator, which contained the mercury based plasma.

The plasma was cooled to super-conductive temperatures, rotated
at 45 thousand revolutions per minute, and pressurized at 150
thousand atmospheres. This would be considered state-of-the-art
technology even by today's standards, some 30 years after he
worked this project. He related that the project achieved its
objective. Instruments and test objects within the center of the
accelerator showed a 50 percent loss of weight, attributed to a
reduction in the gravitational field.

You'll hear more about this technology when I address the Top
Secret USAF Tactical Reconnaissance, flying triangle, or TR-3B
and it's Magnetic Field Disrupter.

SLIDE 31: YB-49 Flying Wing 1948

From 1973 through 1976 I was home-based out of Edwards AFB.

It is near Lancaster California and even nearer to the San
Andrus Fault.

SLIDE 32: B-2 stealth bomber

Edwards has a long history with secret technology and
experimental aircraft. The YB-49 was flown in 1948 at Edwards
AFB which looks a lot like the B-2 Stealth Bomber.

SLIDE 33 : XB-70 Valkyrie 1964

The XB-70 flown in 1964 looks a lot like the still Top Secret
SR-75 that the Air Force says doesn't exist.

SLIDE 34: SR-75 with specification data at bottom

Edwards is the home of the US Air Force Test Pilot School and is
Responsible for Flight Operational Test and Evaluation of the
Air Force's newest aircraft. It hosts a number of Tenant
Organizations from NASA to a Jet Propulsion Laboratory facility.

SLIDES: {35/black F-111, {36/F-15, {37/F-16, {38/A-10,
{39/B-1  (Shown quickly as named)

I worked with the F-111 swing wing bomber. the F-15 air
superiority fighter, the F-16 fighter, the A-10 close air
support attack aircraft, and the B-1 stealth bomber. I was
involved with these and other classified development programs,
when they were just a gleam in some pilot trainee's eyes.

SLIDE 40: A-10 aircraft with external engine pods. and snarling
teeth on aircraft nose.

One night a long time friend of mine and I were standing on top
of the Fairchild A-10 hanger. It was about 2 AM, and was a clear
night with millions of stars visible to the naked eye. This was
a common clear, cool night. I noticed a group of stars that
seemed to be shifting in color. At the time I could name most of
the visible planets and constellations. I pointed out to my
friend that the three bright stars in triangular formation, were
not part of the big dipper.

We watched as the strobing stars shifted from bright blue to a
reddish -yellow in color. After a period of about 20 minutes we
could tell that the objects probably weren't stars, because they
were getting larger. This was somewhat unnerving. It was further
unnerving, when the space in-between the enlarging lights, began
blocking out the stars in the background.

We decided it probably was a Top Secret Air Force vehicle of
some type. Still, we weren't sure. The vehicle had gone from
half the size of the big dipper to twice it's size in under a
half hour and had moved from the west to the east towards the
base. About the time we could make out a silhouette or outline,
of the triangular vehicle, the lights, or possibly exhausts,
flared brighter and vanished from the sky in an instant. This
experience wasn't my first sighting, but it was one of the few
where I had a witness.

SLIDE 41: Nevada

In the summer of 1976 I relocated to Nellis Air Force Base north
of Las Vegas. I spent the next 3 and a half years there. I
worked primarily with the F-15, Electronics Countermeasures, and
Automatic Test Equipment. I had heard rumors of airbases located
in the desert, at places called Mercury, Indian Springs, and
others that didn't even have names. Before the fall of the
Berlin wall, and the collapse of the USSR, no-one talked about
their classified work experience, nor did we repeat rumors of
Top Secret technology and aircraft. Most of us who had Top
Secret clearances, never even told our wives what we were doing,
and where we were going, when on these type projects. I once
spent six months in Vietnam, while my ex-wife thought I was
attending a classified technical school in Colorado.

Slide 42: Groom Lake:

The Military, in a court of law, actually denied the existence
of a classified Air Force Base, Inside The Nellis Range, out in
the Nevada Desert. Don't you know, the plaintiffs, who had
worked at Groom, and their lawyer were surprised to hear this.
But, that's another story.

I was one of the few personnel at Nellis who had a Top Secret
clearance with Crypto access. I was certified to work on Mode 4
IFF, (an aircraft system which responded to classified,
encrypted codes.) I was also certified to work on other Crypto
equipment which I cannot discuss.

It was due to a combination of coincidences and my technical
experience that I was requested to be temporarily assigned to a
place, which had no name. I was told by my commander that I was
to report to an office on the base, and that he didn't have a
clue where I was going or what I was going to be working on. And
let me tell you, he wasn't too happy, to have been left in the
dark.

I left one Monday morning long before sunrise. It was 4:30 AM
when I boarded a dark blue Air Force bus with all of the
windows blacked out. There were 28 other people on the bus, not
including the 2 security policemen, holding M-16 automatic
weapons, and the bus driver. We were each told when boarding,
"Do Not Speak on this bus, unless you are spoken too." Not one
of us uttered a word, believe me. There is nothing which can
inspire compliance like an M-16 sticking in your face,  I
assure you.

The bus drove through the desert, this much I know from the
poor air- conditioning on the bus and the amount of fine dust
that came through every crack in the old vehicle for several
hours and it was soon obvious where I was

SLIDES: {43/SR-71, {44/TR-1, {45/F-117, (Shown quickly as
named)

In the 1950s the government started building the super secret
Groom Lake facilities for the CIAs U-2 spy plane. It's located
in the north central part of the Nellis Range and is designated
as Area 51. Construction of facilities within the Nellis range
continues, even to today. The SR-71, TR-1, F-117, and B-2 were
tested at Groom.

SLIDES: {46/SR-75, {47/TR-3B

Now the Top Secret SR-75, SR-74, and TR-3B are operated there.
Many of these aircraft have been mis-identified as UFOs.

SLIDE 48: Nevada Topographical Map / or satellite

When we reached Groom, the bus pulled into a hanger and they
shut the doors. The security personnel checked me in, while
other security personnel dispatched the others to their places
of work. I was given a pair of heavy glasses to wear, which can
only be described as looking like welder's goggles. The lenses
were thick, and the sides of the goggles were covered to
obliterate my peripheral vision.

Once I had these goggles on, I could only see about 30 feet in
front of me. Anything beyond that distance became increasingly
blurred. If an M1 Abrams Tank barrel, had been pointed at me
from about 50 feet away, I would not have seen it. It was very
disconcerting to have to wear those glasses.

The whole time I was there, some 10 consecutive days, followed
by several follow-up visits, the routine was the same. Leave
Nellis before sunrise and return home to Nellis after dark
every day.

Only once did I get a chance to see the whole base, and that
was when I was flown up from Nellis, in a helicopter to Groom,
for emergency repairs of their crypto test equipment.

For those stationed at Groom, or commuting there daily, the
flight schedules are posted for classified flights. Everyone
not cleared for that particular program and flight, must be off
the ramp and inside 30 minutes prior to the scheduled
operation.

A couple of thousand personnel are flown into Area 51 daily,
from McCarrin Air Port in Las Vegas and from Edwards AFB in
California, on contractor aircraft. Several hundred commute
from Tonapah and Central Nevada via the North entrance near
Rachel Nevada. Other commuters use the South entrance via
Mercury or Indian Springs, which is West of LV.

While at Groom I made contacts and met people from other
programs. Over time, a few became friends and we exchanged
stories.

On my 3rd day on the job at Groom, I had to remove a module
from a multi-bay piece of satellite communications equipment,
used to support certain special mission aircraft. I noticed
while inside the bay checking out the wiring, that it contained
a sealed unit about the size of a large brief-case. It had a
National Security Agency ID Plate on it.

The nomenclature on the name plate was; Direct Orbital Code
Link. I thought this was strange, as the unit was part of a
digital communications link, used solely to communicate with
classified Air Force vehicles. I was unaware at the time of any
military orbital missions not related to NASA. Remember, this
was in the late 70s. The shuttle didn't fly until 1981.

I disconnected the unit and, out of curiosity, I removed the
rear access cover. To my amazement, there were some half-dozen
large hybrid integrated circuit chips inside. The largest chip
had over 500 hair-thin leadsattached and was approximately the
size of a Zippo lighter. The paper inspection stamp on the chip
was dated 1975.

In 1975 the most advanced processor speeds, on the most
classified projects were equivalent to a IBM 8088 which ran at
4 million cycles per seconds. This unit had a processor speed
of 1 billion cycles per second. It wasn't until more than a
dozen years had passed before I saw comparable technology with
integrated circuit chips. Then it was at a Top Secret avionics
development project at ITT.

In the mess hall at Groom, I heard words like Lorents Forces,
pulse detonation, cyclotron radiation, quantum flux
transduction field generators, quasi crystal energy lens, and
EPR quantum receivers.

I wrote down everything I saw, heard, and touched in my log
every night before going to bed. By the way, the food at the
Groom Mess hall was excellent. But what would you expect. There
was no cable, no alcohol, and no women. I guess they figured
they'd better do something right.

Later, while back at the base, my routine went on as normal, as
did my part time job that summer at the Silver Dollar Salon. My
NSA friend, Jerald, who investigated and "watched" those with
highly classified jobs at the Nevada Test Site and the Nellis
Range, happened to show up. He was checking up on a guy who had
a drinking problem, who worked at the Nevada Test Site, where
they set off underground atomic explosions.

SLIDE 49: B-52 bomber landing

He happened to mention a vehicle that could be boosted into
orbit, and return and land in the Nevada desert.

It was an unmanned reconnaissance vehicle which took off from a
B-52 bomber and used booster rockets to place it in temporary
low earth orbit for the purpose of taking reconnaissance
pictures.

I thought he was feeding me a line of bull. Then he said,

SLIDES: 50/51/52: Virtual Reality Lab pictures.

"This vehicle is remotely piloted and communications are made
via the DOCiLe system at Groom." I'm not usually too slow, but
it didn't hit meuntil he repeated, "you know, the Direct
Orbital Communications Link -- D. O. C. L." Bingo, the
light-bulb went on. I had seen a piece of the DOCiLe equipment
at Groom. The NSA unit with the large chips.

These are old pictures of the Virtual Reality Lab at Brooks Air
Force Base where the software to remotely fly exotic aircraft
was developed.

Let Me Get Back To The Development of Alien Rapture - The
Chosen.

After I agreed to write my co-conspirator's story, I talked to
several military Judge Advocate General (JAG) Lawyers. I told
the lawyers that I wanted to write about some of my experiences
in the military and had been on many classified projects. I was
told that I had to write my-story as fiction, which I have.

I was told that I couldn't name any real individuals with
clearances or covers, or use their working names. Which I
haven't.

I was also told that I couldn't discuss any secrets of programs
that I had been personally assigned to. Which I have not done.
Then, I was told as long as I did that, I could damn well write
anything I wanted to.

Of course, I didn't tell them I was going to write about the
government conspiracy to cover-up UFO contact and the reverse
engineering of alien technology. Or, that I was interviewing
pilots who had flown classified air craft.

In the summer of 1992 we met again in Las Vegas. I had compiled
my notes from our first meeting, my interviews, and the input
the five friends had passed on to me. Each had reached out to
their friends and contacts, which uncovered even more
information.

We agreed I was the only one who could get away with writing
about our experiences since I no longer worked for the DoD as
military or government employee or as a defense contractor. My
friends were still connected.

I took one last trip to Nevada in December 1994, without
benefit of my friends. I wanted to see a few of my retired
military friends to cross check some of my facts.

Bud, one of my conspirators, had informed me that he had a
cancerous tumor and was going through some severe depression.
He was dead thirty days later. It was a real blow to us. We had
lost Jerrold a year before of a heart attack.

Of the remaining three friends, Sal has dropped of the face of
the earth and none of his or my contacts have been able to
locate him for two years now. He was extremely paranoid about
the two deaths, and had second thoughts about the book. He said
he was going to move and didn't know when or if he would
contact me next.

SLIDE 53: black SR-71 with red stripes

Let me talk about my friend Doc. He has a theory that UFOs Seem
To Like Fast Aircraft.

The SR-71 pilot whom I knew well, Doc, was stationed at Kadena
AFB, where they were located on the SAC side of the base in
1973.

While flying back across the South China Sea from a
reconnaissance mission, the SR-71 pilot encountered a shadow
over his cockpit. Doc said his avionics systems went totally
hay-wire, and he felt the aircraft nose down slightly, which
can be dangerous at two thousand miles per hour, or 35 miles
per minute.

When he looked up, he was so startled, that he almost panicked
and immediately made an evasive maneuver to the right and down,
which is one of the many maneuvers that they make if a missile
is detected approaching.

Doc said the object was so big that it totally blocked out the
sun. His estimate was that it was 250 to 300 feet across. It
was oval in shape, and appeared to be a bright blue-grey in
color, but he wasn't sure, as a shimmering halo of energy
surrounded the vehicle.

About three minutes later, and some thousands of feet lower,
the vehicle reappeared on his left wing tip. He tried his UHF
radio and all he could pick up was a deep electrical hum. He
abandoned his attempts to use his radio, as his immediate
survival was more important for the moment.

For the next ten minutes, the large oval vehicle moved from his
left wing tip, to the rear of the aircraft, and then to his
right wing tip. Doc said he got this sound in his head, 'like a
swarm of bees in my brain' as he described it. The movement
from the left, to the rear, to the right wing tip took about
two minutes, and then it reversed the movement.

On the UFO's last swing to the rear of his SR-71, his aircraft
started buffeting wildly, which is terrifying at Mach 3, then
it stopped after about fifteen seconds and he never saw it
again.

When Doc returned from the mission he immediately went to his
debriefing. The minute he mentioned the incident, with the
unidentified aerospace vehicle to his commander, he was pulled
away from the debriefing and taken to his commander's office.
His commander, a colonel, filled out an incident report, in
detail, and then told my friend not to mention the incident to
anyone or he would be subject to severe and speedy penalty
under military regulations.

Doc told me that he didn't know one SR-71 pilot or astronaut,
who hadn't had a close encounter or a UFO sighting. He felt
that not one of them would ever go on record with their
experiences, because of fear of retaliation from the Department
of Defense, and loss of their retirement pay and benefits for
breaking the secret's acts.

During the nine years after this in-flight incident, Doc
related that, a few of his trusted friends related similar
incidents with the same type vehicles, or glowing orbs of dense
light dancing around their aircraft.

Then Doc told me another story.

His friend Dave, another SR-71 black-bird pilot, while drunk on
Sake' in Japan, told him in whispers that he didn't use to
drink until, he made a reconnaissance flight over the Eastern
border of Russia six months before.

When Dave returned, he was delirious, and semi-conscious. His
crew had to pull him out of the cockpit. The Flight Surgeon
attributed his symptoms to loss of oxygen. He didn't share his
night-mares with the Air Force doctors, for fear that the
Flight Surgeon would ground him, and he would lose his flying
status. But, under the influence of alcohol, in a quiet bar,
with a trusted fellow SR-71 blackbird pilot and friend, Dave
opened up.

He tearfully related in an emotional story, that he had
nightmares every night, that something had gotten to him during
his flight over Russia. What made matters worse for him was
that he had absolutely no memory of the flight, from the time
he lifted off from the Air Base until the day after he
returned, and found himself in the Naval Regional Hospital in
Okinawa. I managed to track down Dave, who lives in Southern
California, and he confirmed, off-the- record, that the
incident as related to me was true. Dave said that he was
actually happy someone was writing about stories of contact and
sightings by military pilots. He also said he was sure he had
had some type contact with the UFO.

SLIDE 54: F-15 over Arizona

One day, while still at Nellis, We were informed that their was
an F-15 that had crashed on the Nellis Range, which is where
Area 51 is located. The

F-15 crash happened in 1977. A Lieutenant Colonel, and Doc
Walters, the Hospital Commander actually flew into the side of
a mountain while doing a routine, Functional Check Flight.

I've written about this incident in Alien Rapture - The Chosen.

A sergeant who worked for me recovered the F-15 Heads Up
Display film cannister, while assigned to the Accident
Investigation Team.

He told me a guy in a dark jump suit, who was out of Washington
DC, personally took it from him, which was unusual since
everything else was picked up and logged, and taken back to the
assigned hanger for analysis. A prototype video camera was also
on the aircraft. It was recovered as was the flight data
recorder, and also handed over to the guy from Washington.

One night, a couple of weeks after the crash, my NSA friend,
Jerald related to me at the Silver Dollar Saloon, that the
Lieutenant Colonel had radioed the Nellis Tower that he had an
extremely large 'thing' over his aircraft, right on top of him,
and that he was experiencing loss of flight systems. His
communications went dead, and a few seconds later the aircraft
exploded into the side of a mountain top.

Jerald who was the most 'connected' person I ever knew, told me
that the viewing of the 'video,' showed, that some type of oval
vehicle of nd excavation for underground, and mountainside
facilities. EG&G built these hidden bunkers, mountain hangers,
and vast underground facilities at Groom, Papoose, and Mercury
for the government.

These facilities and observations posts are well camouflaged,
inside the Nevada Test Site, and the Nellis Range.

Starting in 1971 and continuing through 1975, a massive amount
of excavation took place at the Groom and Papoose facilities.
Most of the subsequent construction has also taken place
underground.

In 1972, EG&G was granted an indefinite contract, called
"Project Redlight" to support the DOE and the military. This
contract gave them responsibility to assist in the recovery of
nuclear materials, in cases of mishaps and to provide aerial
and ground security, for highly classified government and
military sites. My sources say that the DOE and NSA are
primarily responsible to the MJ-12 committee, for reacting to
sightings of UFOs and recovering artifacts in case of a crash.

So What's Going On Today, You ASK. Let's talk about the newest
secrets and rumors:

SLIDES: {57/Hillary Platform, {58/Avro Saucer, {{59/Northrop
Wing.

The Hillary platform and the Avro saucer and the Northrup wings
were aerospace vehicles, where advance technology was developed
and tested. Each emulated some characteristic of UFOs as
described by the late Dr. Paul Hill. Hill was a NASA UFO
investigator who talks about the UFO's technology in his book
Unconventional Flying Objects.

Lockheed's Advanced Developmental Projects Division, known as
the "Skunk Works," developed the A-12 for the CIA, and a later
version called the SR-71 for the USAF in the early 60s. Thirty
years later, the SR-71 was still breaking world speed records.

SLIDE 60: SR-71 spy plane.

The sleek, matte-black, stiletto shaped spy plane, the SR-71,
broke the world air speed record from LA to Washington DC on
it's retirement flight in 1990. 2,000 miles in 1 hour and 4
minutes.

SLIDE 61: Satellite of the Groom facility

Area 51 - the Groom Air Base facilities, has a 6 mile long
runway, the longest in the US. The Department of Defense and
CIA's most exotic aerospace vehicles are tested and modified at
the Groom Lake facilities.

Why a 6 mile long runway? You need a runway this long if the
minimum, or stall speed of an aircraft, is a very high speed.
Aircraft without wings, like wedge shaped lifting bodies, or
those with 75 degree swept back wings, have a very high stall
speed. So they take off very fast and land even faster. It's a
place where curious outsiders circulate rumors, about aliens
and extra-terrestrial technology, being utilized to accelerate
the various programs at Area 51.

My sources estimate that up to 35% of the SDI funding was
siphoned off to provide primary expenditures for the Air
Force's most secret 'Black Program', which started in 1982. It
is called - The Aurora Program. Aurora is the code name of the
ongoing project to build and test advanced aerospace vehicles.

As early as 1992, the Air Force had already made contingency
plans to move all of it's aircraft out of Groom Air Base. The
public eye was on the base and they didn't like it one damn
bit. Everything like the SR-75 were removed by early 1992 to
other bases in Utah, Colorado, Alaska, Greenland, Diego Garcia,
and another remote island in the Pacific.

Glenn Campbell, more than anyone, of UFOmind.com, and the Area
51 Research council and Desert Rat news sheet, spooked them.
Short take-off and landing vehicles, especially the bat-wing
TR-3A and the triangle TR-3B were relocated to Papoose in the
Southern part of what used to be called area S-4. If I indicate
otherwise, it's because all of my research and contacts took
place to 1994. I take off my hat to him, a true patriot who had
the guts to stand up to the government.

SLIDE 62: SR-75 side view

For the last few years, high-tech buffs speculated that at
least one new and exotic aerospace vehicle existed. The SR-75,
the first operational Aurora Program vehicle, went operational
after 2 years of flight testing and modifications in 89.

The top secret SR-75 is a hypersonic strategic reconnaissance,
or SR spy plane, and is called the Penetrator. It is also a
mothership, which I will explain shortly. Hypersonic speeds
start at approximately Mach 5.

The SR-75 replaced the SR-71 spy plane, which was retired in
1990, by the Air Force, who said, "there is no replacement, all
we really need is our spy satellites to do the job. Ha!

SLIDE 63: SR-75 view with specification data at bottom

The new SR-75 is capable of positioning anywhere in the world
in less than 3 hours. It caries multi-spectral sensors, such as
optical, radar, infrared, and laser.

It collects images, electronic's intelligence, signals
intelligence, and illuminates targets.

The Top Secret SR-75 far exceeds the classified military speed
and altitude records set by the old SR-71, which could fly at a
still classified Mach 3.3 and reach a ceiling of 85 thousand
feet.

The SR-75 attained altitudes of over 120,000 feet and speeds
exceeding Mach-5, or 5 times the speed of sound. That's over
3300 miles per hour. From take-off to landing, the stealthy 75
can make the round trip from central Nevada to Northeast Russia
and back in under 3 hours.

It's 162 feet long and has a wing span of 98 feet. The belly of
the vehicle stands 10 feet off the ground.

It carries a crew of 3 - a pilot, a reconnaissance officer, and
a launch control officer, who doubles as the electronics
warfare officer.

Two methane and LOx fueled, high bypass turbo-ramjet (combined
cycle) engines are housed under each wing, and the bays run
some 40 feetunder the wings, terminating at the trailing edge
of the wing.

The explosive Pulsed Detonation Wave Engines that push the
hugeSR-75 to speeds above Mach 5, are now reported to be
pushing Mach 7, or 4500 miles per hour, with the latest engine
modifications.

Although this plane has been sighted on numerous occasions, has
been picked up on military radar, and the pulse detonation wave
contrail it leaves behind it has been seen, the Air Force
vehemently denies its existence.

SLIDE 64: Radar operator

The 2 large engine bay inlets located under each wing of the
awesome black SR-75 mother ship, hang down 7 feet from the
underside of the wing and are twelve feet wide. You could drive
a Volkswagen Beetle into one of the engine exhausts.

The SR-71, and 75, and the daughter ship, the SR-74, were all
built bythe Lockheed Advanced Development Company, commonly
known as the Lockheed "Skunk-Works."

The SR-74 Scramp is the daughter ship and rides piggyback on
the huge SR-75 until take off. Scramp is from Scram-jet and
rocket propulsion. Scram-jet means a supersonic combustion ram
jet.

Jerald witnessed the flight of the big black Air Force SR-75
carrying the little unmanned SR-74 while inside Area 51. It was
sitting piggy-back on its upper raised platform on top of the
SR-75 Penetrator.

I heard talk about the 75 as far back as the late 70s while at
Groom, andI have 2 additional friends who have seen it at
Groom.

Remember, the SR-74 Scramp can't take off from the ground.

It can only launch from the SR-75 mother ship at an altitude
above 100,000feet, and then it can attain orbital altitudes of
well over 800 thousand feet or 151 miles.

The Air Force uses the Scramp to launch small, highly
classified, ferret satellites for the National Security Agency.
It can launch at least two 1000 pound satellites measuring 6
feet by 5 feet. The Scramp is roughly the equivalent size and
weight of a F-16 fighter. It can easily attain speeds of Mach
15, or a little less than 10 thousand miles per hour.

SLIDE 65: NASA Shuttle on gantry

The NASA Space Shuttle is an antique by comparison. The joke is
on the taxpayers. If you think these rumors are far-fetched.
Look at the YB-49 and XB-70 flown in 1948 and 1964 respectively.
Now look at the SR-75 which has been spotted numerous times. You
say, the government can't keep a secret. You're wrong if you
think they can't.

SLIDES: {66/YB-49 wing, {67/XB-70, {68/SR-75 front view

There are new Rumors that we've placed two new vehicles in
permanent orbit. One of these is the Space Orbital Nuclear -
Service Intercept Vehicle (SON-SIV). It is code named Locust.
The SR-74 and the TR-3B can deliver spares replacement units or
SRUs, service fuels, fluids, and chemicals to the SON-SIV.

Then, the robotic SON-SIV uses these deliverables to service,
calibrate, repair and replace parts on the newer NSA, CIA, &
NRO satellites, which are built to be maintained in space.

SLIDE 69: TR-3B Operational Version

Finally, I've saved the best 4 last. The Operational model
of the TR-3B

A friend said, he would never forget the sight of the alien
looking TR-3B based at Papoose. The pitch black, triangular
shaped TR-3B was rarely mentioned--and then, only in hushed
whispers--at the Groom Lake facility where he worked. The craft
had flown over the Groom Lake runway in complete silence and
magically stopped above Area S-4. It huv-ered silently in the
same position, for some 10 minutes, before gently settling
vertically to the tarmac. At times a corona of silver blue
light glowed around the circumference of the massive TR-3B. The
operational model is 600 feet across.

SLIDE 70: TR-3B prototype Top Secret Flying Triangle

The 200 feet Prototype & the 300 feet Operational TR-3Bs are
Code named Astra. The tactical reconnaissance TR-3B first
operational flight was in the early 90s.

The triangular shaped nuclear powered aerospace platform was
developed under the Top Secret, Aurora Program with SDI and
black budget monies. At least 3 of the billion dollar plus
TR-3Bs were flying by 1994.

The Aurora is the most classified aerospace development program
in existence. The TR-3B is the most exotic vehicle created by
the Aurora Program. It is funded and operationally tasked by
the National Reconnaissance Office, the NSA, and the CIA. The
TR-3B flying triangle is not fiction and was built with
technology available in the mid 80s.

Not every UFO spotted is one of theirs.

SLIDE 71: Top Secret USAF TR-3B

The TR-3B vehicle's outer coating is reactive to electrical

Radar stimulation and can change reflectiveness, radar
absorptiveness, and color. This polymer skin, when used in
conjunction with the TR-3Bs Electronic Counter Measures and,
ECCM, can make the vehicle look like a small aircraft, or a
flying cylinder--or even trick radar receivers into falsely
detecting a variety of aircraft, no aircraft, or several
aircraft at various locations.

SLIDE 72: TR-3B Schematic diagram with top bottom and side
views

A circular, plasma filled accelerator ring called the Magnetic
Field Disrupter, surrounds the rotatable crew compartment and
is far ahead of any imaginable technology.

Sandia and Livermore laboratories developed the reverse
engineered MFD technology. The government will go to any
lengths to protect this technology. The plasma, mercury based,
is pressurized at 250,000 atmospheres at a temperature of 150
degrees Kelvin and accelerated to 50,000 rpm to create a
super-conductive plasma with the resulting gravity disruption.

The MFD generates a magnetic vortex field, which disrupts or
neutralizes the effects of gravity on mass within proximity, by
89 percent. Do not misunderstand. This is not antigravity.
Anti-gravity provides a repulsive force that can be used for
propulsion.

The MFD creates a disruption of the Earth's gravitational field
upon the mass within the circular accelerator.

The mass of the circular accelerator and all mass within the
accelerator, such as the crew capsule, avionics, MFD systems,
fuels, crew environmental systems, and the nuclear reactor, are
reduced by 89%.

This causes the effect of making the vehicle extremely light
and able to outperform and outmaneuver any craft yet
constructed--except, of course, those UFOs we did not build.

The TR-3B is a high altitude, stealth, reconnaissance platform
with an indefinite loiter time. Once you get it up there at
speed, it doesn't take much propulsion to maintain altitude.

At Groom Lake their have been whispered Rumors of a new element
that acts as a catalyst to the plasma.

With the vehicle mass reduced by 89%, the craft can travel at
Mach 9, vertically or horizontally. My sources say the
performance is limited only the stresses that the human pilots
can endure. Which is a lot, really, considering along with the
89% reduction in mass, the G forces are also reduced by 89%.

The crew of the TR-3B should be able to comfortable take up to
40Gs.

The TR-3Bs propulsion is provided by 3 multimode thrusters
mounted at each bottom corner of the triangular platform. The
TR-3 is a sub-Mach 9 vehicle until it reaches altitudes above
l20,000 feet--then God knows how fast it can go!

The 3 multimode rocket engines mounted under each corner of the
craft use hydrogen or methane and oxygen as a propellent.

In a liquid oxygen/hydrogen rocket system, 85% of the
propellent mass is oxygen. The nuclear thermal rocket engine
uses a hydrogen propellent, augmented with oxygen for
additional thrust. The reactor heats the liquid hydrogen and
injects liquid oxygen in the supersonic nozzle, so that the
hydrogen burns concurrently in the liquid oxygen afterburner.

SLIDE 73: TR-3B Operational Version

The multimode propulsion system can; operate in the atmosphere,
with thrust provided by the nuclear reactor,  in the upper
atmosphere, with hydrogen propulsion,  and in orbit, with the
combined hydrogen\ oxygen propulsion.

What you have to remember is, that the 3 rocket engines only
have to propel 11 percent of the mass of the Top Secret TR-3B.
The engines are reportedly built by Rockwell.

SLIDE 74: C-130 special Ops plane - front view

The original picture of the TR-3B was taken with a digital
camera that was carried onto a black - special operations
C-130. An Air Force Special Operations sergeant took the
picture while The C-130, was flying mission support for the
TR-3B.

The current picture, a computer graphic representation, was
created from the sergeant's digital picture using 3D studio.
This picture hangs on the wall in the black vault, at the
Aurora Program Office. I'm not at liberty to say where I got
these other pictures of the TR-3B.

SLIDE 75: TR-3B Original

From the evolution of exotic materials, advanced avionics, and
newer propulsion engines the stealth aircraft were born. Leaps
in technology have been obtained with reverse engineering of
Alien Artifacts as described in the newly released MJ-12
Revised Charter, signed during the Regan administration.

According to Jerald's account, the technology developed at
Papoose far exceeded any known within the world scientific
community. Technology that we can assuredly assume was
developed, from reverse engineering of recovered alien
artifacts.

The control of all Alien Artifacts; the research, the reverse
engineering, and analysis of the extraterrestrial biological
entities (EBEs) has been transferred to the super-secret
laboratory called the Defense

Advanced Research Center or DARC.

SLIDE 76: TR-3B 600 feet wide Operational Model

Many sightings of triangular UFOs are not alien vehicles but
the top secret TR-3B. The NSA, NRO, CIA, and USAF have been
playing a shell game with aircraft nomenclature.

Creating the TR-3, modified to the TR-3A, the TR-3B, and the
Teir 2, 3, and 4, with suffixes like Plus or Minus added on to
confuse further the fact that each of these designators is a
different aircraft and not the same aerospace vehicle.

A TR-3B is as different from a TR-3A as a banana is from a
grape. Some of these vehicles are manned and others are
unmanned.

SLIDE 77: Strange picture of aircraft with pilot's head in
open.

Before Jerald died, we had a long conversation. He was sure he
had documentation that would prove the existence of the MJ-12
committee and our using crashed alien vehicles to reverse
engineer their technology.

I also believe, the recently deceased Colonel Corso, who
discloses the governments involvement with alien technology,
was a honest and honorable man.

SLIDE 78: Earth pictured with TR-3B and worm-hole

Now, with the remaining time I have, I'm going to run through
some of the new MJ-12 documents I received via my friend Dale
who I've known and trusted for almost 30 years.

His father, who worked high up in the NSA for over 20 years
acquired these documents. I believe these documents are real.

Many of the names and Dates were blanked out when I received
them. The complete documents are attached to Brad Steiger's and
my book, Alien Rapture - The Chosen.

It is written as a fiction story with characters on a quest, to
uncover the truth, much like the one my five friends and I
started out on.





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   Sep > Sep 8

                   Martin Cannon Interview on #Visitations

From: Angela Shilling <ashill@skipnet.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 01:06:53 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 04:21:17 -0400
Subject: Martin Cannon Interview on #Visitations

Martin Cannon has agreed to do a meeting on #Visitations.

He will be available to answer your questions:

Saturday, September 12th
      7pm Pacific / 9pm Central / 10pm Eastern / 3am GMT

Where: #Visitations on the Undernet
        http://www.skipnet.com/~visitations/

How to Get to IRC: http://www.skipnet.com/~visitations/irc/

Martin Cannon's Website:
        http://www.skipnet.com/~visitations/cannon/

Martin Cannon has been a Mind Control Researcher for over 15
years. He is most known for his article The Controlers:

http://www.skipnet.com/~visitations/mindcontrol/cannon.htm

The central premise is that ufo abductions are CIA experiments.
All facets of mind control are covered, including programmed
assasins and agents, and remote electro-magnetic control of
non-consenting experimentees.


Other Articles by Martin Cannon At:

        http://www.skipnet.com/~visitations/cannon/


MIND CONTROL & ABDUCTIONS by Martin Cannon

THE PRE-HISTORY OF MKULTRA by Martin Cannon

Project Monarch: The Tangled Web by Martin Cannon

ROSWELL: Truth and Consequences by Martin Cannon


Angela Shilling
angela@skipnet.com
#Visitations on the Undernet Channel Co-Manager
http://www.skipnet.com/~visitations





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   Sep > Sep 8

                        Number of Triangles Sighted?

From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@foto.infi.net>
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 06:58:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 09:51:28 -0400
Subject: Number of Triangles Sighted?


Can anyone give me statistics of how many sightings of the Flying
Triangles have been recorded since the start of this year?> asked
Roy Hale.

Roy, I am now creating a data base for all the UFO reports AUFON,
American UFO News has received. Give me several days to go back
through the issues and I will let you know how many reports have
come to us.

I have been reporting all the triangle sightings that I have come
across.

Do you want just American sightings or worldwide?
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Stefan Duncan
Director of XPI
Editor of AUFON
5396 Sumac Circle
Fayetteville, N.C. 28304
swduncan@foto.infi.net
http://www.aufon.com
ICQ 11878618
(910-425-2976)







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   Sep > Sep 8

             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 05:49:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 09:49:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?


>Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:22:03 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>But so what... this discussion has gone far beyond reason. The
>bottom line is there is no such thing up there, at 100 miles or
>at 22,000 miles

>So, do have another thought.... about something else.!.

Well, Bruce and everyone else, with whom I have been offering
"just my opinion,"  I do agree with one thing, I have said enough
about this...I definitely will have another thought...but, I just
don't think I will share it with this list.

I am amazed that there are so many "materialistic" thinking
people out there.  They believe what they are told, even to the
point of accepting someone's word, simply because they "have a
title" tacked on to their name.

Don't get me wrong.  I realize there is a lot of education
involved in this mail echo, and I respect those who are so
educated.

Yet for the past 50 years there has always been a lot of educated
and highly placed people telling us that the the whole UFO
ideology was pure "science fiction." So it appears we have a
continuation of that thought, even though it is now moved away
from the UFO, into the MILITARY/SCIENTIFIC community.

Take care...continue your research Bruce.  I do have a lot
respect for you and your work...believe it or not. <G> We have
met on several occassions at various MUFON Conventions.

Regards, Mike






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                   Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary

From: Roy Hale <roy_hale@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 06:01:28 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 12:41:27 -0400
Subject: Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary


Hi All,

I am looking for Jorge Martin of Puerto Rico, or any other
Puerto Rican investigators, who are needed for the inclusion in a
documentary of sightings in and around Puerto Rico. (This
documentary will cover most worldwide hotspots).

If you are a investigator in Puerto Rico, and would like to be
interviewed on UFO sightings and, the Goat Sucker please contact
me ASAP.

We need to have a pre-interview so we can layout our filming on
the island, and be told of where most activity has been
occuring.

If you know of the whereabouts of Jorge Martin, who is proving
hard to pin down, then please e-mail me on the above address
ASAP.

The flight leaves from Heathrow London to Puerto Rico on sunday
13th.

So if you live on the island and you investigate UFO sightings,
and strange goatsucker attacks, we would like to hear from you
ASAP.


Kindest Regards,

Roy Hale
Essex & London UFO Network








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                  Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:09:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 13:02:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Subject: Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles
>Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 14:15:50 -0400

>"The seeing of an image should correspond to either the
>diffraction limit or the atmospheric seeing, whichever is
>greater.


>From:

>http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~jlotz/aoptics/node3.html

><snip>

>"... r0 is the atmospheric coherence length or Fried parameter.
>characterizes the effect of turbulence on the incoming >
>wavefront."

<snip>

>" The diffraction limit of resolution for 4m (D aperture)
t>elescope at 500 nm (Wavelength) is given by equation 17:>>

>       1.22 * Wavelength / D = 1.2 * 10 ^-7 rad"

>(This is a mistake: the result should be 1.525 * 10 ^-7 rad.)>>

>R is

>       2.1 * Wavelength / r0 = 2.1 * .0000005 / .10 = 10^-5 rad

>So turbulence in this case degrades the resolution by a factor
>of 100!"


>In the case of the Hubble telescope, we should get:

>       Resolution = 1.22 * .0000005 / 2.4 = 2.54 * 10^-7 rad

>       160 000 m. * sin (Resolution) = .0407 m = 1.7 inches
>       resolution at 100 miles in SPACE.

>Of course, on the ground, we always have the 10^-5 rad
>turbulence-dependent resolution.>

>       160 000 m. * sin (10^-5 rad) = 1.6 m = 4.9 feet GROUND
>       resolution at 100 miles.

>Which means that, at 100 miles from SPACE, you can barely see a
>car in a parking lot.>

>This is science.  But is it true ?

>Enjoy,

Very Good! Show's you're using your noggin for something other
than a hair garden.

Problem:  non-symmetry. If I recall correctly, atmospheric
turbulence that is in close the telescope mirror has the
greatest effect. Turbulence farther away has a lesser effect.

In this case we are talking turbulence at a great distance
(hundred miles?). I don't know how to calculate the difference,
but based on this I would say that your calculation is an
overestimate of the spot size or resolution at the earth's
surface.






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   Sep > Sep 8

             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 18:19:40 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 13:24:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?


>Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 05:49:31 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop
>         Circles?

>>Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:22:03 -0400
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>But so what... this discussion has gone far beyond reason.

Indeed, since satellites and microwave-beams can hardly held
responsible for the  cropcircles found in the sixteen-hundreds,
what are we talking about anyway?

Greetingz,

Andy Denne






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   Sep > Sep 8

                 Aztec 'Crash' [was: Forgotten Secret Soviet

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:09:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 13:13:41 -0400
Subject: Aztec 'Crash' [was: Forgotten Secret Soviet


>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 08:42:57 +0200
>Subject: Documentation, Now Forgotten, On Secret Soviet UFO Dossiers?

>Source: NONSOLOUFO (Italian)

>http://www.videosoft.it/nonsoloufo/nufo001e.htm

>This page is a rather incoherent automatic English translation
>which I have tried to make comprehensible below, without
>digressing too much from the text. The original article from the
>Italian newspaper La Stampa and the automatic translation
>follow.

<snip>

>"Certainly. I have been able to see a deep-frozen alien in
>Dayton, Ohio. But first you must know that in the summer of 1949
>a nuclear experiment was performed near Aztec in New Mexico. A
>flying disk was attracted to Earth by the burst. It didn't have
>openings: compact and solid like a coin. After having struggled
>for weeks the experts succeeded in opening it, and they found
>six dead bodies inside. Here is the testimony of university
>professor Spencer Carr, depicting one of the extraterrestrials:
>"Apparent age of 30 years, perfect set of teeth, chromosomes and
>human blood." But through dissection of the cranial canopy it
>has been discovered that the brain didn't fit the age, but that
>of a man of 400, 500 years."

Lest some of the newcomers to this List and newcomers to the
field of UFO research be suddenly filled with questions as to why
we haven't all heard about this Aztec, New Mexico UFO crash
and the work of 'Professor' Carr, let me point out the following:

What is reported here by an Italian investigator is what Carr
stated publicly over 20 years ago, and few serious ufologists
paid attention because it has long been known that there is
no evidence of an Aztec crash.

William Moore, one of the first investigators of the Roswel
Incident (co-author of the first book on the subject), looked
into this and found the harder looked (more people he talked to,
etc.) the more the 'case' fell apart.

I recently read a review of the Aztec case in which the author
pointed out that there is, and never has been, anyone in the
Aztec area who recalls the event. (This is exactly the opposite
of the situation in Roswell.)

This Italian movie producer who claims to have seen a frozen
body "in Dayton, Ohio" will certainly have to explain how he
managed to get inside a military base and into what must be a
highly secret installation on the base..... and prove it.

Bottom line: this documentary may have some interesting new
information from Russia, but I suspect that the show will
also contain a lot of highly questionable material.

Caveat Emptor.






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   Sep > Sep 8

              Re: Mexico City Footage - Reply From VideoMeister

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:06:23 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 13:51:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City Footage - Reply From VideoMeister


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Mexico City Footage reply from VideoMeister
>Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 19:06:14 PDT

<snip>

>VideoMeister Message:-

>Your concern about the relative edge sharpness of the UFO and
>buildings is a good point. To control for this, I checked
>against both the nearby building and a far one (with the
>triangular shape). The UFO edge sharpness is intermediate
>between the nearby and far buildings. Both buildings showed
>motion-smearing; the far one showed more, as expected from
>theory. (The reason is complicated, having to do with stochastic
>noise, digitizing, and thresholds.)

>So I eliminated edge-contrast as a possibility for creating the
>UFO lack of smearing.

Errr, ummmm.  "stochastic noise"????  Whazzat???  Errol, you
ever hear of such an animal?

"digitizing and thresholds"????  Again, huh??  What's dis guy
talkin' 'bout???

The far buildings would show more motion blur simply because they
are farther away, a principal which applies in camera rotation
regardless of whether it is video, film, or still images.

Imagine the camera in the center of a circle, with a line running
from it to the circle.  Now imagine a smaller circle inside the
other one.  If you rotate the camera through X degrees, the part of
the inner circle bisected by the lines at the beginning and end
of the camera's movement is shorter than the part of the larger
circle.  The inner circle represents the close buildings, the larger
circle the more distant buildings.  Same movement blurs the distant
buildings more.

This involves no complex theory and has nothing to do with any of
the BS in VideoMeister's post.

Bob








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   Sep > Sep 8

               Re: UFO Sightings Lake Waccamaw, North Carolina

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:06:28 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 13:29:01 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Sightings Lake Waccamaw, North Carolina

>From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@foto.infi.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO Sightings Lake Waccamaw, N.C. (AUFON18 excert)
>Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 01:45:59 -0500

>UFO Landings, Little Man, Abductions, Reported Happening In A Small
>Community By Lake Waccamaw, N.C.

>by Stefan Duncan

>During a routine trip to Lake Waccamaw on Aug. 29th for an
>evening of observations, I was told a person in Hallsboro, N.C.,
>several miles west of the lake has been having UFO sightings,
>including an encounter with a "little man."

>This lady, who asked for her name to be anomalous, is a
>prominent figure of the county along with her husband. I
>interviewed the woman, whom we will call Haley, and recorded the
>discussion on audio tape.


The lady asked that her name be anomalous???  ROFLMAO!!!!!!!

And you call yourself an editor, man?????

Learn English, damn it!!!

Geez!

Bob








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   Sep > Sep 8

              Re: Mexico City Footage - Reply From VideoMeister

From: Moderator UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 14:25:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 14:25:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City Footage - Reply From VideoMeister



>Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:06:23 -0400 (EDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: Mexico City Footage - Reply From VideoMeister

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Mexico City Footage reply from VideoMeister
>>Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 19:06:14 PDT
>
><snip>
>
>>VideoMeister Message:-
>
>>Your concern about the relative edge sharpness of the UFO and
>>buildings is a good point. To control for this, I checked
>>against both the nearby building and a far one (with the
>>triangular shape). The UFO edge sharpness is intermediate
>>between the nearby and far buildings. Both buildings showed
>>motion-smearing; the far one showed more, as expected from
>>theory. (The reason is complicated, having to do with stochastic
>>noise, digitizing, and thresholds.)

>>So I eliminated edge-contrast as a possibility for creating the
>>UFO lack of smearing.

>Errr, ummmm.  "stochastic noise"????  Whazzat???  Errol, you
>ever hear of such an animal?

Bob,

There are times that I too go huh?!

Thank you Mr. Thingie for the Web and www.dogpile.com
(one of the finer multiple-search engine searchers).

ebk

-----------------------------------------------------

Source: http://www.phy.ohiou.edu/~jung/sr/srmain.html

What is Stochastic Resonance?

The amplification of small signals by external noise is termed
Stochastic Resonance (SR). Stochastic resonance occurs in
bistable and excitable systems. It is characterized in terms of
the amplification of the amplitude of the signal or the
signal-to-noise ratio.

The concept of SR has been put forward to explain the more or
less periodic occurencies of ice ages. Meanwhile, SR has been
demostrated in a number of other experiments in many scientific
disciplines. It has been established as an important paradigm in
the theory of nonlinear systsms. SR has been discussed in

     Bistable systems
     Excitable systems
     Threshold crossing detectors.

The theory is based on the theory of nonstationary stochastic
processes and is now well understood.


or to perhaps get a visual sense of Stochastic Noise try:


Source: http://neurodyn.umsl.edu/sr/


Visual Perception of Stochastic Resonance

We generally believe that noise degrades signals. Stochastic
resonace clearly shows that in some nonlinear systems noise can
enhance the signal. Stochastic resonance has been observed in a
variety of physical systems and recently even in biological
sensory neurons, suggesting that it may be useful to animal .
All of these experimental demonstrations had the common feature
that weak and noisy signals were first recorded with electronic
instruments, and afterwards the resulting data were analyzed by
computer. Thus it was the computer, using some analysis routine,
which actually quantified the information content of the
recordings. But could one substitute the human brain for the
computer? Are brains well designed to extract small amounts of
information from quite noisy stimuli? Well, let's try to see the
answer.

I have prepared a simple Java applet that will let you play with
noise levels and time-dependent noise. While you are reading
this text, the applet is loading and getting ready to run. What
are you going to see ? I added noise to a gray-scale picture and
then filtered the noisy image with a threshold.

(noise = 40)

It's very hard to understand what's in the noisy picture.
Changing the noise intensity doesn't help: still very, very
hard.

(noise = 120)

(noise = 400)

What happens if I generate a sort of a movie, a different
realization of the noise for each frame ? The single frames of
the movies are hard to understand, but if I play the movie I can
see many more details. And there is a noise level which lets me
see more details of the original picture.








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   Sep > Sep 8

               Re: Aztec 'Crash' [was: Forgotten Secret Soviet

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 15:03:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 17:14:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Aztec 'Crash' [was: Forgotten Secret Soviet


>Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:09:15 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Forgotten Secret Soviet 'Files'?
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 08:42:57 +0200
>>Subject: Documentation, Now Forgotten, On Secret Soviet UFO Dossiers?

>>Source: NONSOLOUFO (Italian)

>>http://www.videosoft.it/nonsoloufo/nufo001e.htm

>>This page is a rather incoherent automatic English translation
>>which I have tried to make comprehensible below, without
>>digressing too much from the text. The original article from the
>>Italian newspaper La Stampa and the automatic translation
>>follow.

><snip>

>>"Certainly. I have been able to see a deep-frozen alien in
>>Dayton, Ohio. But first you must know that in the summer of 1949
>>a nuclear experiment was performed near Aztec in New Mexico. A
>>flying disk was attracted to Earth by the burst. It didn't have
>>openings: compact and solid like a coin. After having struggled
>>for weeks the experts succeeded in opening it, and they found
>>six dead bodies inside. Here is the testimony of university
>>professor Spencer Carr, depicting one of the extraterrestrials:
>>"Apparent age of 30 years, perfect set of teeth, chromosomes and
>>human blood." But through dissection of the cranial canopy it
>>has been discovered that the brain didn't fit the age, but that
>>of a man of 400, 500 years."

>Lest some of the newcomers to this List and newcomers to the
>field of UFO research be suddenly filled with questions as to why
>we haven't all heard about this Aztec, New Mexico UFO crash
>and the work of 'Professor' Carr, let me point out the following:

>What is reported here by an Italian investigator is what Carr
>stated publicly over 20 years ago, and few serious ufologists
>paid attention because it has long been known that there is
>no evidence of an Aztec crash.

[From an old post on my (small) web site]

"In 1972, before the issue of the Roswell Crash was revived by
Charles Berlitz's 1980 book "The Roswell Incident", Robert
Spencer Carr shocked the world with his revelation that he had
proof that the U.S. Military had performed an autopsy of a
number of aliens that they had obtained after the crash of a UFO
in New Mexico. His comments were contained in a 'Life' magazine
article, and he also appeared at a UFO symposium in Florida."

I transcribed his talk from an audio tape, and it contains the
quote mentioned above (however, there are also some
differences). I would note that The Skeptical Enquirer did an
article on Carr recently, using his son as one of their
references.

The text of his 1972 presentation in Florida can be found at:

http://www.konsulting.com/steve/carr.htm

Bruce is correct in that there is no evidence to support a crash
near Aztec, NM (however, there are very interesting Native
American ruins there).  IMHO, Carr was apparently one of the
more intersting charactors in the early days of this genre.

Steve







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   Sep > Sep 8

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:56:46 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 17:10:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 10:44:27 -0400 (EDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>Dennis,

>I assume, then, that you do not believe the story that
>Brazel was supposed to have said when someone mentioned
>little green men, "but they weren't green."


Bob and others who responded,

I thought I was only the one raising this particular
perspective, but, interestingly, I followed the post today about
the Martin Cannon interview, and found that Cannon presents a
very detailed discussion of my own thought. Anyone interested in
what a hyena (as one respondent referred to me) thinks can go to
Cannon's web site, click on the article "Roswell: Truth and
Consequences," and scroll down and read "Part II: The Problem of
Marcel's Ignorance."

The URL is:

http://www.skipnet.com/~visitations/cannon/

The short answer to your question is that, no, I don't accept
Brazel's alleged "they weren't green" statement, primarily
because Marcel would have seen bodies as well if it were true.
But Marcel was interviewed many times (that is, had ample
opportunities) and never once mentioned bodies at the Brazel
site. Why, or why not?

For that matter, Blanchard never mentioned bodies, either. Why
not? Having already spilled the beans about the recovery of a
flying disc (which his press release apparently referred to as
"relatively intact," why omit the bodies?

(Brief aside: Most Roswell hotbloods fail to address the strange
circumstances surrounding the original Blanchard press release.
One, why did Blanchard release it in the first place, presumably
without having first secured higher approval? Two, how did he
manage to get it so wrong? He would have interviewed Blanchard
and Marcel and seen the shredded debris for himself, yet his
press release says "the flying object _landed_ [my
emphasis]...[and] the rancher _stored the disc_ [my
emphasis]...Action was immeditely taken and the disc was picked
up at the rancher's home." Given that it obviously didn't land
and was in a jillion pieces, how did it get assumed that
whatever it was was disc-shaped? Was Blanchard winging it? And
if Marcel was such an infallible Intelligence Officer, why did
he stop by home to show it to his family before first reporting
to Blanchard, aurely a blatant violation of security
procedures?)

Remember that in the Randle/Schmitt Roswell scenario, the bodies
are recovered _before_ Brazel ever comes into town. Why wouldn't
Marcel, as the base intelligence officer, have been sent out on
_that_ recovery? Or, if he was being kept out of the loop then
-- for some unfathomable reason -- why would he have been sent
out on the second recovery (at the Foster ranch)? Similarly, if
bodies were recovered at a second site _after_ Marcel retrieved
the debris from the Foster ranch, again, as base IO, why would
he be kept out of the loop then?

Simply put, such a scenario makes no sense.

Everyone wants to argue that Marcel would have known everything,
but then they fail to account for his highly cospicuous failure
to ever mention bodies. It seems as least likely, if not
logical, that Marcel never mentioned bodies for the very simple
reason that there were none.

In fact, the only account that puts Marcel in conctact with, or
in knowledge of, bodies is the fictional one that appears in the
Corso/Birnes book, noteth the Hyena.

>I think the Air Force gave away their hand when they tried
>to explain bodies at all.  Personally, I take this as a
>tacit admission that bodies, or something resembling bodies,
>did turn up at the crash site.
>
>To each his own.
>
>Bob
>

Indeed, take it however you wish. The AF, however, is quite
upfront about why the issue of bodies is addressed at all:
because several people claimed to have seen bodies, and those
accounts comprise part of the Roswell literature. The "body"
accounts of Jim Ragsdale, Gerald Anderson and Glenn Dennis are
examined in some detail.

Think of the AF what you will (and call my middle name Hyena),
but none of these alleged eyewitnesses have a shred of
credibility left. Ragsdale changed his story (and crash site) so
much that even Randle disavowed him. Anderson (who claimed to be
five years old at the time he saw bodies) was caught forging
"evidence" of same. Glenn Dennis has yet to document his nurse
or even provide her real name, assuming she ever existed.
According to William Haut, Dennis never mentioned anything about
bodies to him until 1988 or 89. Efforts on the part of
investigators, both military and ufological, to document
Dennis's nurse have failed miserably.

Given that, the Air Force had two basic choices: either call the
witnesses deluded or self-serving liars (unlikely on the part of
any government agency because of procedural rules, save for
maybe federal criminal prosecutors) or try to provide a
plausible explanation for such accounts, however implausible it
might strike you, me, or others. Crash dummies weren't their
only suggestion, by the way, they also mentioned the crash of a
tanker plane in which the bodies of the crew were brought to
Roswell for examination.

For what it's worth, I don't accept (or apply) the AF dummy/dead
crewmen scenario, either. It's much simpler to assume that
Ragsdale and Anderson were simply making things up as they went.
Dennis, I have misgivings for. I think History knocked on his
door and he succumbed to temptation to expand his role in same.
Once that happened, however, there was no turning back.

By the same token, and since it can hardly harm my reputation
further, I suspect that if Dennis's failure to deliver his
infamous nurse is any indication, his remarks about being
threatened with death are probably highly suspect, as well.

Dennis "Hyena" Stacy

PS: A note of clarification: the above is a response to all
those who responded to my earlier post. Alas, life is too short
to answer everyone in detail. And it was not Bob Shell who
dubbed me a hyena, if that is in anyway
implied by the above. I simply used his post to reply to.







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   Sep > Sep 8

                    Re: Ed Fouche Responds To Tim Mathews

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 01:49:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 17:37:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Ed Fouche Responds To Tim Mathews


>From: Ed Fouche <fouche@connecti.com
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: From Ed Fouche Re: Matthews' comments
>Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 16:29:12 -0500

I have no idea why my posts are read, edited, re-created and
then sent to UpDates.

For instance Ed Fouche has said that hydrogen was used to power
a craft in the upper atmosphere which is near impossible. The
way it is presented on 'UpDates' makes it look as if I am making
that claim.

How ridiculous and is this evidence of attempts to give Fouche
the much needed break he requires?

Still no answer to the points about the TR-3B, mass reducers,
compartmentation, the fact that the 'SR-75' (model kit) would be
a dud designation (the RS-71 was the original name for the
'Blackbird' and was changed on this one occasion after LBJ made
a cock-up). Oh well....

I know Fouche has his supporters and that they all live in a
sci-fi dreamland.

But they can only give us techno-babble and pseudo-science when
it comes down to it. Under no circumstances could Fouche have
been involved in all the programmes he said he had and he will
be glad to know that I have already submitted FOIA requests on
his military career in order to carry out further detailed
checks on his claims......

I love the way he taps into conspiracy theory paranoia by
claiming that the alien autopsy film was a fake put out as part
of a psyops programme. I think naked profit might be a rather
better explanation - in this case. Perhaps a better example of a
'psyop' would be the encouragement of the lie, from the 1950s
onwards, that flying saucers and flying triangles were of ET
origin or part of 'back-engineering' programmes. Sadly, nobody
in the USA seems faintly interested.

I never thought I'd see the day when different posts are put
together, reorganized and messed about in order to save the skin
of an obvious hoaxster.

No wonder Ufology is such a joke.

Tim Matthews






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   Sep > Sep 9

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Phot

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:44:22 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 10:54:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Phot


>Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 11:33:46 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>In short, there is no credible evidence that bodies were
>>retrieved at Roswell, period.

>>Dennis

>Which brings everyone right back to; -then WHY 'explain' them!-

>Tag! You're it! <G>

>John Velez, ;-)


John,

You can find my response in my longer reply to Bob Shell.

Tag!

Dennis







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   Sep > Sep 9

                        Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'

From: Gildas Bourdais <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 19:03:36 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 10:48:48 -0400
Subject: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'

Dear List members,

Here are some remarks about two recent discussions on the
list.

First the Roswell crash:


>Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:16:18 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis  Staqcy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 19:53:49 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

Dennis Stacy replied to David Rudiak, who had noted that general
Ramey had begun to release the balloon explanation "before
Marcel's plane even arrived in Fort Worth".

Dennis wrote:

>He would not have had to wait for a plane to land, in other words,
>if someone on the ground in Roswell had already concluded that a
>huge mistake had been made".

But who could have done that?

Colonel Blanchard had left the base in the afternoon shortly
after  the plane had taken off for Fort Worth. On board were
five officers, according to the testimony of flight engineer
Robert Porter:

Lt. Col. Payne Jennings, the Deputy Commander of the base; Lt.
Col. Robert I. Barrowclough; Maj. Herb Wunderlich; Maj. Jesse
Marcel, and Captain William E. Anderson,"who said it was from a
flying saucer". This is in the Affidavit of Porter, unabridged
version published in Karl Pflock's 'Roswell in Perspective'
(p.165).

BTW, The version published in the 'Roswell Report' does not give
the names of the officers, but it is the book!

It seems very hard to imagine how another officer at Roswell
might have decided, all by himself, after the departure on
vacation of Col. Blanchard, that they had all made a huge
mistake. Then called General Ramey to warn him, whereupon Ramey
would have begun denying the press release of the morning,
before the arrival of the plane.

Yes, this is "astounding"!

Dennis Stacy notes further, about Col. Blanchard:

>How, then, did he manage to issue a press release stating that a
>relatively intact flying disc had been hauled into a rancher's
>shed for storage ? No pro-Roswell researcher that I know has
>ever adequately addressed this question. May you be the first.
>Note that Blanchard screwed up royally in this regard -- by
>issuing the press release without approval from higher
>headquarters -- but that he, too, was later promoted.

It is true that the press release remains very bizarre, even
today. But there are many reasons to consider a completely
different scenario.

I discussed this problem with Walter Haut, who told me twice
that there was very tight discipline on the base, and that Col.
Blanchard would never have ordered such a press release by
himself. Drawing from all the researchers who have studied
Roswell, prominently Kevin Randle, we can perceive another
scenario which would explain the facts.

A crashed disc had been retrieved, in complete secrecy, before
the discovery of the debris field, which came as a shock when
Brazel arrived in Roswell with some samples on Sunday 6.

We know from the testimony of General DuBose that these samples
were sent by plane all the way to Washington in a sealed pouch,
with a stop at Fort Worth (DuBose was there).

We may assume that, during Monday 7, a lot of discussion took
place between the Pentagon, Fort Worth and Roswell, to decide a
policy regarding this debris field, while Marcel and Cavitt were
exploring it on the Foster ranch.

The situation worsened on early Tuesday morning when they made
their report, and when they realised that Brazel had been lodged
during the night and interviewed by Walt Whitmore, Director of
the KGFL radio.

It seems plausible to me that a double-action was then decided
on:

First, to try to impose secrecy on the second discovery, but
they were not sure how to be able to do that, since it was a
huge debris field on open land. (How long had it been there and
seen by how many people who might have picked up pieces? Indeed,
some kids did that).

So, they decided on a second option - the press release, that
could be denied as soon as the situation was brought under
control.

This is what happened toward the end of the morning:

The debris field was cordoned-off, Brazel was led to the base,
and Whitmore was persuaded not to broadcast his interview.

As soon as the beginning of the afternoon, the balloon story,
already under preparation, could be released.

Gen. DuBose has testified that he received the balloon debris in
an open canvas pouch:


Marcel was not on the plane, and DuBose never saw the small
boxes carefully wrapped, as described by Porter.

As for the bizarre description of a "relatively intact flying
disc" in the press release, it may have been a way to try to
give a credible account to the press, in a rather clumsy way.

Interestingly, it does not correspond at all to the Mogul
debris!



I would like now to comment on the discussion about the book
'Alien Rapture' by Fouch=E9 and Steiger.

I don't like the violent criticisms made on the list, but I must
admit that there are many problems with it.

I tried to read the book but I stopped, for the first time, when
I reached pages 52 and 53.

On page 52, the authors tell of the discovery of a crashed B-29
bomber during the war in Korea, with the crew mutilated. I was
very perplexed because I remembered a similar story, but it was
a B-52 in Vietnam. And here it is, on page 5 !

This bothers me a lot.

There is another apparent contradiction, on p.. 96.

In the same paragraph, the authors write that the vehicle mass
is reduced by ninety-nine percent, and three lines later, by
eighty-nine percent. On page 97, it becomes ninety percent. Make
up your mind, gentlemen !

However, I am grateful to David Rudiak for his very clear
explanations on the concomitant reduction of G forces if the
mass is "reduced"! Pretty obvious, though, but it has to be
said.

And I am sorry to disagree with the reply of Tim Matthews
(message of 5 September):

>In fact you are supporting this manipulator's wild speculations.
>Fouch=E9 is making it all up as we all know. Did you know he's a
>direct descendent of Napoleon ?

Well, first, according to the introduction of Brad Steiger,
Fouch=E9 is a descendent, not of Napoleon, but of Joseph Fouch=E9
who was Napoleon's Prime Minister and the head of the secret
police.

Second, we have here a new an original kind scientific
argumentation which we might label "the proof by Napoleon"!

Gildas Bourdais







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               Bodies at Roswell? [was: Symbols Discovered on

From: Dennis  Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:39:24 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:06:29 -0400
Subject: Bodies at Roswell? [was: Symbols Discovered on

List:

A correction and apology:

While responding to my backlogged email I just now noticed that
the individual who referred to "hyenas" in reference to my
concerns about Roswell body believability (and presumed
character slander of the dead) did so in a direct post to me and
not via UFO Updates, as I had implied.

Sorry for the confusion for anyone trying to figure out what the
hell the Hyena allusions meant.

Perhaps the head vulture, aka ebk, might wish to consider
changing the name of this thread to something like "Bodies at
Roswell?", question mark included? That would permit the
original J. Bond Johnson thread to, well, expand at will.

And, hey, how about the DOW today, up something like 387 points,
led by Roswell Inc. (ROSI) which closed at a 52-week high of 25
3/8, up 3 3/4 in heavy trading. Look for the latter to go to 50
by the millennium. The only cloud on the horizon appears to be a
frivolous class action lawsuit filed by disgruntled stockholders
concerned as to why ROSI hasn't already carried the day, given
its proprietary patents on reverse engineered technology and
anticipated licensing fees. Trading was halted in the late
afternoon and the SEC is expected to intervene overnight, citing
Brazilian inflation of a similar crash claim, the collapse of
the Russian market for another, and a dramatic increase in the
number of short shares.

"No doubt but what Corso's comments caused a sharp summer run up
from the mid-teens," said a spokesperson for Barney & Blather.
"Timing is everything in this market. But our main concern now
is the Intel counter-patent infringement suit. Intel has deep
pockets, as everyone knows. But if ROSI can survive that
challenge, the sky's the limit. We're still bullish on ROSI."

Individual investors seem undaunted as well. Dee Cornwell, 57, a
retired dentist from Santa Monica, noted that the military and
industrial complex suppressed start up companies like ROSI
"almost as a matter of routine. Who you gonna believe," he asked
over a sour-creamed bagel in Palm Springs, Florida, "the
Secretary of the Air Force or a retired mortician from New
Mexico? Jeez, what's the Air Force done for us in the last
forty, fifty years? They lost Viet Nam, I can tell you that.
Cuba, too. Same thing with the light bulb. Think GE's gonna give
up its piss-poor light bulbs just because ET had something
better? Hah! My uncle knows better. Saw 'em himself in the
summer of '47, I think it was. Got one of his letters around
here somewhere. The main thing is those alien bulbs didn't need
no energy. Just drew electricity out of the air. Damndest thing
you ever saw! Yeah, he seen the bodies. Why do you think I'm
long on ROSI?"

The Hideous Hyena







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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:09:32 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 10:56:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>Date: Sun, 06 Sep 98 14:22:12 PDT

>>Gerald Anderson mentioned bodies at the site and he's been
>>thoroughly discredited in the interval. Glenn Dennis mentioned
>>bodies, and as far as I'm concerned, his credibility is zero,
>>too.

>>The Air Force didn't ask you to buy anything. Giving people like
>>Anderson, Dennis, Kaufmann and others the benefit of the doubt
>>(without calling them outright liars, for which they might have
>>been sued), the Air Force simply tried to supply a scenario
>>which might explain their accounts.

>Let's see here. I want to be sure I've got this straight:
>
>Gerald Anderson and Glenn Dennis are "outright liars," but it's
>okay anyway for the Air Force to use their testimony to bolster
>its absurd explanation for the bodies. Their testimony is bogus,
>irrelevant, and useless only when it refers to _Alien_ bodies.

I'm not sure what you mean here, but see my longer response to
Bob Shell. In the meantime, perhaps you accept Gerald Anderson's
memories as a five-year-old, along with Glenn Dennis's phantom
nurse?

Are you insinuating, BTW, that Anderson and Dennis (and Ragsdale
and Kaufmann) are all credible witnesses simply _because_ they
reported alien bodies? Maybe you could explain. While you're at
it, maybe you could explain why Marcel _never_ mentioned bodies,
a question you routinely ignore. Shouldn't Marcel have seen
bodies if anyone did? See also "The Problem of Marcel's
Ignorance" on the web page I cited before you respond.

<snip>

>Cheers,

>Jerry Clark


Cheers,

Dennis






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               Re: UFO Sightings Lake Waccamaw, North Carolina

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 98 15:30:19 PDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 10:58:55 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Sightings Lake Waccamaw, North Carolina


>Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:06:28 -0400 (EDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: UFO Sightings Lake Waccamaw, North Carolina

>>From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@foto.infi.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: UFO Sightings Lake Waccamaw, N.C. (AUFON18 excert)
>>Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 01:45:59 -0500

>>UFO Landings, Little Man, Abductions, Reported Happening In A Small
>>Community By Lake Waccamaw, N.C.

>>This lady, who asked for her name to be anomalous, is a
>>prominent figure of the county along with her husband. I
>>interviewed the woman, whom we will call Haley, and recorded the
>>discussion on audio tape.

>The lady asked that her name be anomalous??? ROFLMAO!!!!!!!

>And you call yourself an editor, man?????

>Learn English, damn it!!!

>Geez!


Bob,

Now, now. How do you know the lady didn't want her name to be
anomalous? Maybe she has a very ordinary name, has suffered
shame for it, and has entertained private fantasies about the
daring and colorful life she could have had if only her parents
had bestowed her with an extraordinary moniker.

Jerry ("Nonanomalous Name") Clark










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              U.S. Cable Viewers - Mark Your Calendar - On TNT

From: Doc Barry <authority@webtv.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:54:28 -0700 (MST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:21:32 -0400
Subject: U.S. Cable Viewers - Mark Your Calendar - On TNT


Should Be The Tv Event Of The Year For UFO/ET Buffs

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

For the first time ever, viewers learn what many consider to be
the terrifying truth about the Soviet Union's encounters with
extraterrestrial intelligence and UFOs in Russia, Romania, China
and the Eastern Bloc.

Roger Moore hosts this extraordinary special featuring
never-before-seen footage of what is believed to be actual crash
sites and alien autopsies, first-hand accounts with former
agents of the KGB of UFO incidents, powerful re-creations of
alien encounters and first-time interviews with the experts who
have seen the documentation and know the truth.

'The Secret KGB UFO Files' paints a disturbing picture of the
KGB's hidden campaign and discloses startling revelations that
will forever change the way the world thinks about this
phenomenon.

Rating: TV-PG =A0

On TNT Network Channels
Sunday, September 13 at 8 p.m. (ET/PT)
Sunday, September 13 at 9:30 p.m, (ET/PT)
Wednesday, September 16 at midnight (ET/PT)
Tuesday, September 22 at midnight (ET/PT)

=A9 1998 Turner Network Television, Inc. A Time Warner Company.
All Rights Reserved. Legal/Privacy Notice about this site

Included Page: http://tnt.turner.com/kgb/frame_index.html
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

~~~~~~"UFO Interest" News updated TWICE daily. "What's Up Doc?"
www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518







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              Re: 'Supermassive' Black Hole Found In Center Of

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:20:26 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:27:11 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Supermassive' Black Hole Found In Center Of


Source: ScienceDaily

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/09/980908074632.htm

Links are preceded by asterisks.

Stig

*******

Source: *National Science Foundation

Posted=BF9/8/98
'Supermassive' Black Hole Found In The Center Of Our Galaxy

The presence of an enormous black hole at the center of our
galaxy has been detected by a researcher funded, in part, by the
National Science Foundation (NSF). The evidence is being
reported this week at the Central Parsecs Galactic Center
Workshop '98 in Tucson, Arizona, by Andrea Ghez, of the
University of California-Los Angeles.

"What lies in the center of the Milky Way has been one of this
century's 'big' science questions," said Terry Oswalt, NSF
program manager for Stellar Astronomy and Astrophysics. "Ghez's
work has massive implications on our understanding of how
galaxies evolve."

Black holes are formed from the remnants of collapsed stars. A
black hole consists of a large mass compacted so densely that
not even light can escape its force of gravity. Since Ghez could
not directly see a black hole, she inferred its presence by
searching for the gravitational influence it imposes on nearby
objects she could see, namely stars.

In 1995, using the Keck I Telescope atop Mauna Kea in Hawaii,
Ghez began tracking the movement of 200 stars near the galactic
center. She found at least 20 stars that exhibited the telling
signs of influence by extreme gravitational forces.

These stars are spiraling around the black hole at speeds of up
to three million miles per hour-about 10 times the speed at
which stars typically move. In order to account for the rapid
speeds of these stars, Ghez determined that an object 2.6
million times more massive than our Sun must be concentrated
into a single black hole.

Just getting a clear view of the center of our galaxy is an
impressive feat in itself. To overcome the distortion created by
the Earth's atmosphere, Ghez made her observations using a
technique called "infrared speckle interferometry." The
procedure, which she helped develop, uses computers to analyze
thousands of high-speed, high-resolution snapshots.

The result: an image that has at least 20 times better
resolution than those made by traditional earthbound imaging
techniques. "It's like putting on glasses," said Ghez.

Using this technique in 1995, Ghez witnessed the disappearance
of a star that was, at the time, the closest object to the black
hole. Whether the star was sucked into the black hole, or simply
went behind it, scientists may never know.

But we have little to fear about a similar fate for Earth, since
the center of the Milky Way galaxy is approximately 24,000 light
years away. Because of the Earth's position on an outer arm of
the spiraling Milky Way, much of our knowledge about galaxies
does not come from our own. Ghez's research, however, gives us a
definitive view about a part of Galaxy that we have never seen
before.

"There is an incredible amount of matter between us and the
center of the Milky Way to obscure our view," said Oswalt. "Ghez
has pulled the living room shades open a bit and finally given
us a good look at what's going on in our own backyard."

The Central Parsecs Galactic Center Workshop '98, is being held
in Tucson, Arizona from September 7 to 11. For more information,
contact Alaina Levine at (520) 621-4969, or visit the website
at:

http://www.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de/gc98

Copyright =A9 1995-98 ScienceDaily Magazine | Email:

editor@sciencedaily.com

Best viewed with Internet Explorer or Netscape Navigator (version 3.0
or higher)






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                   Soviet UFO show on TNT, Sunday, Sept 13

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:12:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:49:00 -0400
Subject: Soviet UFO show on TNT, Sunday, Sept 13


Are we in for another classic from the folks who brought us
'Incident At Lake County'? If so, I guess I'll be a sucker
again, because I plan on watching and taping it.

Stanton Friedman is once again in attendance, commenting upon
the alleged Soviet sightings. Perhaps he would be so kind as to
let us all know whether he actually viewed the footage before
commenting on it this time?

Mr. Friedman?

Sincerely,

-Scott C. Carr
Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY






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              Re: Mexico City Footage - Reply From VideoMeister

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:47:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 12:16:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Mexico City Footage - Reply From VideoMeister


>Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:06:23 -0400 (EDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: Mexico City Footage - Reply From VideoMeister

>>Your concern about the relative edge sharpness of the UFO and
>>buildings is a good point. To control for this, I checked
>>against both the nearby building and a far one (with the
>>triangular shape). The UFO edge sharpness is intermediate
>>between the nearby and far buildings. Both buildings showed
>>motion-smearing; the far one showed more, as expected from
>>theory. (The reason is complicated, having to do with stochastic.
>>noise, digitizing, and thresholds.)

>>So I eliminated edge-contrast as a possibility for creating the
>>UFO lack of smearing.

>Errr, ummmm. "stochastic noise"???? Whazzat??? Errol, you
>ever hear of such an animal?

>"digitizing and thresholds"???? Again, huh?? What's dis guy
>talkin' 'bout???

>The far buildings would show more motion blur simply because they
>are farther away, a principal which applies in camera rotation
>regardless of whether it is video, film, or still images..

>Imagine the camera in the center of a circle, with a line running
>from it to the circle. Now imagine a smaller circle inside the
>other one. If you rotate the camera through X degrees, the part of
>the inner circle bisected by the lines at the beginning and end
>of the camera's movement is shorter than the part of the larger.
>circle. The inner circle represents the close buildings, the larger
>circle the more distant buildings. Same movement blurs the distant
>buildings more.

>This involves no complex theory and has nothing to do with any of
>the BS in VideoMeister's post.


Well, yes.... and no. Like any image on the film plane, the
"thickness of an edge" has an extension (length) on the film
plane which correponds to an *angle*. This angle, when projected
out into space beyond the camera lens corresponds to an
extension (length) that is proportional to the distance. Hence a
1 foot sized object at 10 feet makes an angle of 1/10 radian
(about 5.7 degrees), as does a 10 foot object at 100 ft. A 1
foot object at 100 ft makes an angle of 1/100 radian (about 0.57
deg.... approximate angular size of the moon or sun).

Now suppose a camera is twisted slightly during the exposure
such at edges of images are smeared.

For simplicity assume that none of the objects in the field of
view moves during the exposure.

In this case the edges of _each_ object will be smeared by an
amount corresponding to the angular twist of the camera.

If the camera moved a (whopping) 5.7 degrees or 1/10 radian
during the exposure, then the edge of an object at 10 ft would
have a 1 ft smear and the edge of an object at 100 ft would have
a 10 ft smear. But, on the film plane, these two smears would
_be_the_same_size_. What size would that be?

Take the angle of rotation and multiply by the focal length.

If the focal length = 50 mm, a 1/10 angle of rotation
corresponds to (a whopping) 5 mm of smear, _each_image_ on the
focal plane would have the same amount of smear - regardless of
how far away the imaged object was.

Hence, it is true that the "amount of smear at the object
distance" grows with distance as Bob (and Jeff) have pointed
out. However, on the film plane all these smears are the _same_
amount.

Typically the smear is much less that 1/10 radian of course.

In the case of the Mexico Video the smear of the building edge
corresponds to building motion of several feet _if_the_camera_
were_motionless_and_the_building_moved_ (as by a highly
localized earthquake!).

For the observed amount of smear the further buildings would
have moved more than the nearer buildings. Since we don't buy
the idea that the buildings moved we assign the smear to rapid
rotation of the camera (during 1/30 sec frame time).

The UFO image, however, shows no smear!

If we assume that the buildings didn't move, but the camera
rotated, then to avoid smear, the UFO must have moved in the
same direction as the camera rotation and it must have moved by
an amount equal to the smear angle, as determined by the length
of the smear of the edge of the image of the building, projected
to the (assumed) distance of the UFO. This corresponds to 3 ft
or so.

In other words, to explain the lack of smear of the UFO image
while the building image is smeared, one must assume either the
UFO jumped several feet in synchronism with the camera or the
UFO image was added in later with no electronic smear to make it
agree with the building image smear.

Note: this lack of image smear of th UFO when the building edges
are smeared occurs when the image moves from hand shake. The
amount of smear varies with the amount of hand shake, of course.
VideoMeister (Jeff Sainio) plotted the edge smear as a function
of hand vibration magnitude for buildings and the UFO. The
building edge smear increased with image motion from frame to
frame. The UFO edge smear didn't increase. (to be published in
MUFON Journal)

I suspect that VideoMeister's reference to the distant building
showing more smear is really a result of the lower contrast of
the more distant building against the background sky.

Electronic noise makes all edges somewhat diffuse (or adds to
the natural "diffuseness" of the optically created image).

This electronic noise plays a greater role, proportionally, in
determining the diffuseness of a low contrast edge (distant
building) than a high(er) contrast edge (closer building).

The "stochastic noise" probably refers to the electronic noise
which is a statistical "thing" (analogous to film grain noise)
and the digitizing and thresholds refer to the fact that a
computer version of an analogue signal is never a perfect
rendition of the signal, but only an approximation which can
introduce its own 'noise' or, in this case, diffuseness of an
edge.






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                 Re: Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary

From: "Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo" <pharaoh@web2000.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 19:14:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:24:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary


> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 06:01:28 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Roy Hale <roy_hale@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary
> To: updates@globalserve.net

> Hi All,

> I am looking for Jorge Martin of Puerto Rico, or any other
> Puerto Rican investigators, who are needed for the inclusion in a
> documentary of sightings in and around Puerto Rico. (This
> documentary will cover most worldwide hotspots).

Jorge Martin has a web page:

Revista Evidencia OVNI

http://www.rforest.net/evidencia/

Best regards,

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center






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                         Michael Wolf's Credentials?

From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:01:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 12:27:42 -0400
Subject: Michael Wolf's Credentials?


Can anyone or Dr. Michael Wolf tell me what the following title
and credentials are about?

Michael Wolf, MD, PhD, ScD, JD
National Security Council Advisory to NSC's MJ-12
(UFO Security) Subcommittee

I am very curious if anyone can explain this to me.

Thank you
Kathleen Andersen
MUFON State Section Director
Seattle  Washington






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                 Re: Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 00:12:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 12:25:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary


>Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 06:01:28 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Roy Hale <roy_hale@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary
>To: updates@globalserve.net

>Hi All,

>I am looking for Jorge Martin of Puerto Rico, or any other
>Puerto Rican investigators, who are needed for the inclusion in a
>documentary of sightings in and around Puerto Rico. (This
>documentary will cover most worldwide hotspots).

>If you know of the whereabouts of Jorge Martin, who is proving
>hard to pin down, then please e-mail me on the above address
>ASAP.

Yes, Jorge Martin can be reached at:

Jorge Martin <evidencia@rforest.net>

I hope this helps..


REgards, Mike






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                              An Honorable Man

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:57:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 12:40:06 -0400
Subject: An Honorable Man


Hi All,

I have used this forum to 'bitch' about the media and how it
usually uses and abuses abductees and UFO witnesses. Well, I
just want to make _as_much_noise_ about someone who is the
exception to the rule; Jeff Rense. Just as we should criticize
them when they get it wrong, we should reward those who 'get it
right!'

                      Mein Kampf: (My 'Story')

Myself, Greg Sandow, and two of the members of AIC were guests
on Jeffs' "Sightings on the Radio" program last Thursday night.
As happens sometimes, there was a mis-communication and the name
of someone who wished to remain anonymous was inadvertently
mentioned on air. This person has a career and a family to
protect. Although I think that he overreacted, immediately after
the broadcast he set about severing all ties with anyone
connected to the UFO community and changed his telephone number
and e-mail address. He also had a small personal website which
he took down.

All, because he -feared- the consequences of his accidental and
unfortunate public exposure. I'm not going to politicize this
post with my thoughts and feelings about having lost a friend or
how those invisible bastards in our government have managed to
intimidate witnesses by creating an atmosphere of fear and
ridicule. Read Al Lehmbergs last 'Ode' again, he says it all far
more eloquently than I ever could.

This post is for Jeff.

Since last Thursday night I have been back and forth with Jeff
trying to resolve this unintended but real violation of this
persons anonymity. Take my word for it, most of these guys
(media personalities) are only interested in what _you_ can do
for _them_. Jeff isn't like that. It's rare and he should be
acknowledged/encouraged!

(Somehow) Jeff managed to talk the network into pulling a three
hour program from their main server in Texas! (So that it is no
longer archived on the website.) He is now working on getting
all references to this individual removed from the program
before it is reposted. Why, you may ask. Well, the answer is
simple; this guy not only "talks the talk," he "walks the walk!"

Jeff Rense really cares about the people he works with and uses
on his programs. Yep, blew my mind too! He quite simply didn't
have to do a bloody thing. He could have blown me off by telling
me that it was beyond his control, or that the network wouldn't
do it, or any number of other equally valid excuses. Instead, he
puts a hole in his website archive, takes three hours of his own
work offline, and is editing out valuable material for the
benefit of an 'one time' guest. What does that tell _you_ about
Jeff Rense's character? Speaks volumes to me!

From this day forward I will sing the praises of Jeff Rense. He
is an 'exception to the rule'. One of the very few media
personalities (Don Ecker is also one) who treat their guests
with dignity and genuine respect. Jeff has gone way beyond even
that in this situation.

Mr. Rense, you have won my respect, and my heartfelt gratitude.
My you have continued success in all your endeavors. I owe you
one - big time! Call in the marker anytime it suits you. I am at
your service.

On behalf of all the members of AIC I thank and salute Jeff for
his efforts on our behalf and I thank him for every abductee or
UFO witness that has ever been used/abused or screwed by the
media. I hope that the Jeff Rense 'style' of doing business is
the wave of the future. This guy has single-handedly restored my
faith that there may be some hope for the role of the media in
the education of the public about this phenomenon.

A tip of the old "Hatlo Hat" Mr Rense.

Peace,

John Velez, Webmaster: IF-AIC


________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
________________________________________________






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   Sep > Sep 9

             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 23:20:05 PDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 12:32:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?


>From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:43:43 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?
>>Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 00:10:21 PDT

>Leanne,

>>But, the answer is out there and observable 'circle' creations
>>have occurred in guarded fields so that tends to rule human
>>physical contact in the non-hoaxes. So, what of Occam's Razor
>>here?

>I noticed you citing this previously, and now you are citing it
>in the plural - as if crop patterns have appeared in 'guarded'
>fields on more than one occasion - I'm wondering what your
>source is?  And when you say 'observable' do you mean that these
>patterns were actually witnessed being made?

>Rob

Rob (& List),

I had not referred to this instance before, but it should be
found on one of the British 'circle' sites.

It was reported, on this List recently, that a circle appeared
"within minutes" in a guarded field. A field that was under
observation so there were no hoaxers involved - if the lister
had reported honestly. By 'observable' I meant that no hoaxers
were observed in its very quick creation - just a few minutes.
Sorry for any confusion on that point.

My earlier listed reference was to a seperate occurrance in the
Mediterranean area. It prompted me to raise the idea of
eliptical 'circles' being created by microwave (or other) beams
directed into a field at an angle creating a distorted circle.

Regards,

Leanne Martin
Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia








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                             FEMA's Real Mission

From: Gerry Lovell <ed@farshore.force9.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:15:57 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 12:59:05 -0400
Subject: FEMA's Real Mission


Source: The Salt Lake Tribune

Date: Sept 9 1998

There's No Hollywood Glitz in FEMA's Real Mission
By Rick Weiland


It is not often that government employees, or the agency for
which they work, find themselves the subject of a major motion
picture. Rarer still are their activities considered part of a
global conspiracy to hide the presence of aliens from the
general population.

In the recent film version of the popular 'X-Files' television
program, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, or FEMA, has
the dubious distinction of being cast in the role of Evil Big
Government. A possible nod at Oscar time for Best Federal Agency
in a Conspiratorial Role notwithstanding, such a conception
seriously confuses the true mission of FEMA.

While reasonable people know that FEMA is not part of some
sinister plot involving aliens and a government takeover, there
likely remain many who, despite our best efforts and the scores
of serious natural disasters over the last few years, don't know
exactly what FEMA is or what it does.

Since 1979, when it came into being, the FEMA mission has been
formally summarized this way: to reduce the loss of life and
property and protect our nation's critical infrastructure from
all types of hazards, through a comprehensive, risk-based
emergency management program of mitigation, preparedness,
response and recovery. While this characterization touches on a
number of different responsibilities, the core remains
strikingly simple: Before, during and after disaster, FEMA is
there to help.

With approximately 2,500 full-time employees, FEMA is among the
smallest federal departments or agencies. To supplement our
efforts in a major disaster response, we rely on hundreds of
temporary and reserve employees as well as volunteers. These are
the people, in some cases your friends and neighbors, who make
up much of the agency.

Residents and communities who have gotten to know FEMA firsthand
because of a disaster understand that government cannot ensure a
complete recovery. Yet FEMA's programs -- ranging from housing
assistance to crisis counseling to infrastructure repair -- are
often vital. There are hundreds of thousands of people who, in
the last 10 years alone, have benefited from FEMA's support. In
the case of the tornado victims in Spencer, S.D., and flood
victims in Fort Collins, Colo., and Grand Forks, N.D., our
government, which is often criticized, has made a real
difference.

Government can sometimes seem mysterious and unresponsive. When
that occurs, it reflects a failure on the part of those who are
asked to help make it work. The only remedy is openness and
going that extra mile to make sure that people get the help that
is available to them. Granted, government cannot make you whole
after a catastrophic natural disaster, but it can and should
help you get back on your feet.

It is rare for most of us within FEMA to find ourselves a part,
however small and brief, of popular culture. But while the
agency's 15 minutes of Hollywood fame is sure to be short-lived,
our commitment to helping communities recover from, and lessen
the effects of, disaster loss is not, be it flood, tornado,
earthquake or, yes, even alien invasion.Rick Weiland is the
regional director for FEMA's Region VIII, which is based in
Denver and includes the states of Colorado, Montana, North
Dakota, South Dakota, Utah and Wyoming.

-- end --

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 > > >  Gerry Lovell / Far Shores |http://www.farshore.force9.co.uk
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -







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                        Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:19:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 14:33:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs


>Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 02:30:15 +0200
>Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 20:26:58 -0400
>Subject: Crop Circles: Messages From Beyond?

>Excerpt from FATE Magazine's September 1998 issue

>http://www.llewellyn.com/fate/9809/pr1_0998.htm

>Go the page for photos!

>Stig

>*******


>Crop Circles: Messages from Beyond?

<snip>

>>Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:18:11 -0800
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>From: psa@direct.ca (Paul Anderson)
>>Subject: CPR-Canada Update: Large Formations
>>         Reported in Manitoba - August 26

<snip>

>>Reports just received this morning (August 26) from
>>Chris Rutkowski (Ufology Research of Manitoba) and
>>Gordon Sopczak (CPR-Canada-Alberta and CCCS)
>>of "massive" formations in a field of oats south of Winnipeg,
>>in Manitoba.


Hi all,

Could there possibly be a connection between the geomagnetic
storm, the crop circle formation, and possibly Ley Lines,
Vortices or Derived Vortices?

The question is interesting and I wonder whether there were
significantly many more crop circle formations in March 1989,
e.g. in Canada? Maybe in England?

A vortex-like energy also seems to appear within these
formations, and "Considerable evidence shows that crop circles
have been known throughout Earth's history."

Thus this seems to be more like a natural phenomenon to me.
Though, many of the formations are likely to have been hoaxed,
especially those looking like characters, birds etc.

This should be further discussed and researched.


Best regards,

AWS





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   Sep > Sep 9

                     Re: C-E: Area-51 Crash With Comment

From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:29:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 14:39:58 -0400
Subject: Re: C-E: Area-51 Crash With Comment


>Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 03:10:07 -0400
>From: Kenny Young <task@FUSE.NET>
>Subject: Area-51 Crash with comment
>To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

>A Search For Clues In Wake Of Deadly Air Force Crash
>1.44 a.m. ET (546 GMT) September 5, 1998

>By Angie Wagner, Associated Press

>NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev. (AP) -- The Air Force helicopter
>crews were practicing rescues, going over how to find downed
>pilots in the dark Nevada desert.

>But the two aircraft crashed in the Nevada desert near the
>top-secret Area 51, killing all 12 people aboard. The wreckage
>was found at 2 a.m. Friday, 90 minutes after the HH-60G Pave
>Hawk choppers were due back.

<snip>

> Area 51 is a staple of science fiction; UFO enthusiasts and
>conspiracy buffs are convinced the wreckage of a flying saucer
>they believe crashed near Roswell, N.M., in 1947 was taken there
>to be studied.

>Comment:

>Might I complain about the "staple of science fiction" comment
>used by Associated Press reporter Angie Wagner? If the lore
>surrounding Area-51 is mere science fiction, as the reader is
>informed, why is this fiction referenced in her reportage?

>Why is Wagner noting the lore of Roswell and crashed UFO stories
>if the reader is subsequently informed that it is all nonsense?
>Where and why would this "science fiction" reference be relevant
>to reportage of an Air Force mishap involving twelve casualties?
>How does the mention of fantasy and delusion benefit the reader
>who should be informed of a serious military mishap instead?

>Perhaps by referencing Area-51 and all of its mysterious
>attributes, this A.P. reporter lends further support to the
>rumors and hearsay surrounding this installation, and deals
>with... even acknowledges... the popular consensus that this
>'mysterious' facility is gripped with potential scandal and
>conspiracy.

>I guess I'm nitpicking, but the 'conspiracy buff' and 'UFO
>enthusiast' words used by Wagner, with all of their negative
>implications, could very well be thrown back to her.

>"Why mention this in your article?" one could ask Wagner, "if
>you are not one of those conspiracy buffs or UFO enthusiasts
>yourself?" After all, referencing 'UFOs and conspiracies' are
>the things these Buffs and Enthusiasts like to do.

>KY

Good points Kenny, however it appears that the reporter gained
most of her UFO "expertise" from the movie Independence Day.
Only there is it claimed that the alleged Roswell UFO was taken
to Area-51. Like yourself I deplore the words UFO "buffs" and
"enthusiasts" though the movie itself, I suppose, could be
termed science fiction.






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   Sep > Sep 9

                 Kecksburg - New Documentary Refuels Debate

From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:06:25 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 15:09:21 -0400
Subject: Kecksburg - New Documentary Refuels Debate

In Today's UFO Spotlight:

THE KECKSBERG FILES:

UFO researcher's new video explores several theories about 1965 crash in
Westmoreland County.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
For the source of today's "UFO Spotlight" story plus the latest UFO related
and archived news clippings visit UFOSEEK...

http://www.ufoseek.org






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                    Re: Clarification To The List Members

From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@torino.alpcom.it>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:01:58 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 15:22:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Clarification To The List Members


>Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 23:52:14 -0500
>From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Clarification To The List Members

>Dear list members,

>I present my apologies to all of you, my intention was not to
>disturb but to participate with clear and documented
>expositions.

There has been no disturbance. No apologies needed.

>I really tried hard to stay 'on the line' about the Mexico City
>UFO Video analysis, I exposed my personal opinion regarding the
>anonymous video origin and I repeat that if we don't have the
>original videotape then we can't be right when doing any
>analysis of frames, pictures, video stills, etc...

We NEED a critical approach to any supposed evidence.

It is true that too many people would prefer to have their pet
beliefs unchallenged, but ufology is not here to perpetuate a
sense of mystery or wonder. We are supposed to try and solve a
riddle, aren't we?

Keep it up and don't be discouraged. I, for one, appreciate your
posts.

Best regards


Edoardo Russo                             Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici
CISU, Casella postale 82, 10100 Torino - tel 011-3290279 - fax 011-545033
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo          e-mail: edoardo.russo@torino.alpcom.it







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                      Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:30:42 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 15:36:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'

>Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 19:03:36 +0200
>From: Gildas Bourdais <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'

<snip>

>It is true that the press release remains very bizarre, even
>today. But there are many reasons to consider a completely
>different scenario.

<snip>

>A crashed disc had been retrieved, in complete secrecy, before
>the discovery of the debris field, which came as a shock when
>Brazel arrived in Roswell with some samples on Sunday 6.

But then you have to explain why Marcel was arguably ignorant of
the first recovery. See Martin Cannon's "The Problem of Marcel's
Ignorance" referenced in my earlier post. Why would he have been
sent on the second recovery, but not the first one?

The most obvious answer -- except to those who apparently
believe that flying saucers and bodies were falling out of the
skies around Roswell like raindrops in the summer of 1947 -- is
that there was only one crash site, Marcel was at it, and there
weren't any bodies involved.

<snip>

>So, they decided on a second option - the press release, that
>could be denied as soon as the situation was brought under
>control.

>This is what happened toward the end of the morning:

>The debris field was cordoned-off, Brazel was led to the base,
>and Whitmore was persuaded not to broadcast his interview.

>As soon as the beginning of the afternoon, the balloon story,
>already under preparation, could be released.

<snip>

>Gildas Bourdais

But all of this could have been done _without_ the huge risk of
a press release. Why take the chance of a press release that was
guaranteed to be reported around the world, which is exactly
what happened? After all, it would have taken only one reporter,
curious as to whether there might be more to the story, to
potentially blow it wide open.

It also doesn't explain why a disc is referred to. Again, why
run the risk of possibly arousing suspicion? And why not
describe something more resembling what you were going to show
off at the subsequent press conference?

Dennis







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                                     Re:

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 98 11:49:12 PDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 15:32:33 -0400
Subject: Re:


>Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:09:32 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>Date: Sun, 06 Sep 98 14:22:12 PDT

>>>Gerald Anderson mentioned bodies at the site and he's been
>>>thoroughly discredited in the interval. Glenn Dennis mentioned
>>>bodies, and as far as I'm concerned, his credibility is zero,
>>>too.

>>>The Air Force didn't ask you to buy anything. Giving people like
>>>Anderson, Dennis, Kaufmann and others the benefit of the doubt
>>>(without calling them outright liars, for which they might have
>>>been sued), the Air Force simply tried to supply a scenario
>>>which might explain their accounts.

>>Let's see here. I want to be sure I've got this straight:

>>Gerald Anderson and Glenn Dennis are "outright liars," but it's
>>okay anyway for the Air Force to use their testimony to bolster
>>its absurd explanation for the bodies. Their testimony is bogus,
>>irrelevant, and useless only when it refers to _Alien_ bodies.

>I'm not sure what you mean here, but see my longer response to
>Bob Shell. In the meantime, perhaps you accept Gerald Anderson's
>memories as a five-year-old, along with Glenn Dennis's phantom
>nurse?

>Are you insinuating, BTW, that Anderson and Dennis (and Ragsdale
>and Kaufmann) are all credible witnesses simply _because_ they
>reported alien bodies? Maybe you could explain.

Wow.  If I didn't know you better, Dennis, I'd think this was an
intentional misreading of a point I should have thought you'd
have no trouble grasping.

The point was simply this. Unless one is an Air Force apologist
(as anti-Roswell ufologists tend to be, though I would have
hoped you'd be an exception), one cannot have it both ways.
Pro-Roswell ufologists routinely get savaged by the likes of you
for believing dubious stories. On the other hand, if the AF uses
those same dubious stories to posit a dubious non-UFO
explanation for the Roswell incident, that's okay, according to
you.

Weirdly, for pointing out the obvious hopelessness (not to
mention blatant and amusing hypocrisy) of the AF- apologist
position, I get accused of :"insinuating ... that Anderson and
Dennis (and Ragsdale and Kaufmann) are all credible witnesses
simply _because_ they reported alien bodies." The mind boggles.

As for the canard about Marcel's not mentioning bodies: Why
should he? If Randle is correct, the bodies were recovered at
another site from the one Marcel examined. C'mon, Dennis.

Jerry Clark







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                              Re: Aztec 'Crash'

From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@torino.alpcom.it>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 12:28:21 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 15:28:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Aztec 'Crash'


>>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 08:42:57 +0200
>>Subject: Documentation, Now Forgotten, On Secret Soviet UFO Dossiers?

>>Source: NONSOLOUFO (Italian)

The cower up Archives top secret in Moscow but also the CIA hide
the truth

>From daily LA STAMPA of February 10, 1993

>We speak any with the director Mario Gariazzo that is
>preparing a film verity on the UFO from the title 'The Cover Up'

>The film will come realized in the United States and in
>Russia, Aldo and Daniele Ricci of Italy Films Production and of
>the Ital Service Video.

Nothing more was heard about that planned movie.

>Mario Gariazzo is a bottom connoisseur of the matter having been
>part of most important committee of investigation on the UFO
>that is the NICAP of Washington, the =ABNational Investigation
>Committee on Aereal Phenomena=BB that for many years has
>collaborated actively with the CIA. Gariazzo has come in
>possession of documents that would seem important, beyond that
>stricly confidential.

Mario Gariazzo is a well known guy. He was indeed a member of
NICAP in the late '50s. He published one of the very first
saucer magazines,sold in the Italian newsstands for a brief time
in 1960: "Dischi volanti" (Flying Saucers) under the pen-name of
"Sidereus", when living in Turin. Then he stopped it and flew
away, because of his debts (it was rumoured).

Apart from occasional contacts with UFO buffs, he surfaced again
in early 1978, at a time when Spielberg's "Close Encounter of
the Third Kind" movie was to hit the market. I met him at that
time: under an American-sounding pseudonym (Roy Garrett) he was
director of a UFO movie "Occhi dalle stelle" (Eyes from the
Stars) which tried to profit from the presumable success of CE:
a UFO abduction story with a knowledgeable ufologist helping a
local journalist to investigate, both finally shot by the MIBs.

At the same time, in order to better capitalize movie costs, he
used the same stages, actors, saucer and aliens to direct
another movie titled "Incontri molto ravvicinati del quarto
tipo" (Very Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind"), an X-rated
porno-soft affair.

Then, once again, silence for years. In 1993, the new movie
announcement. Then, once again, silence!

>Certain. I have had the capability of see an alien in a cell
>freezing to Dayton in the Ohio. You must know that in the summer
>of the 1949 came effected a nuclear experiment to Atrec, in New
>Mexico. A flying disk for the burst came attracted to earth. It
>didn't have openings: compact and solid like a coin. After have
>us trafficked for weeks the experts succeeded to open it and
>they found inside six dead body. Here the testimony of the
>professor university Spencer Carr that depicts one of the
>extraterrestrials:

Here Gariazzo only repeats the much too known BS by Spencer
Carr.

But next he adds something more:

>Depict that you have seen.

>Not a monster, but a being structured like a human. Nude, of
>male sex. A creature of around 90 centimeters, of olive color.
>But in report to the body with arms and legs thinner than the
>our. Big eyes and features mongolians=BB.

Have I to add he never mentioned that in the conversations and
correspondence we have had?

>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Forgotten Secret Soviet 'Files'?
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>What is reported here by an Italian investigator is what Carr
>stated publicly over 20 years ago, and few serious ufologists
>paid attention because it has long been known that there is
>no evidence of an Aztec crash.

Er! I won't call Mario Gariazzo an "Italian investigator"...

>This Italian movie producer who claims to have seen a frozen
>body "in Dayton, Ohio" will certainly have to explain how he
>managed to get inside a military base and into what must be a
>highly secret installation on the base..... and prove it.

He needs not to! His goal is to sell his product. Period.

Just for the record.

Best regards


Edoardo Russo                             Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici
CISU, Casella postale 82, 10100 Torino - tel 011-3290279 - fax 011-545033
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo          e-mail: edoardo.russo@torino.alpcom.it







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                              Mogul Explanation

From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 16:47:57 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 15:17:33 -0400
Subject: Mogul Explanation


Hi,

I've been thinking over this Mogul-explanation for the Roswell
incident, but that theory seems to have some flaws in it too.
For example:

The Mogul-project that is thought to be the cause of the Roswell
Circus was flight 4, on the 4th of June '47. According to people
who were present at that time, this balloon was lost track of,
above Arobella, about 20 miles from the crash-site.

BUT: According to the papers of the College of Engineering NYU,
Research Division, the Program Rapport for Constant Level
Balloons there WAS no flight sceduled or recorded at that date!

The paper, prepared for Air Materiel Command showed only the
following entries:

"3 jun. 1947  Bethlehem, Pennsylvania
 5 jun. 1947  Alamogordo, New Mexico
 7 jun. 1947  Alamogordo, New Mexico"

However asking "how that is possible?", the following
explanation was given:

The flight obviously wasn't put on record because the operation
was unsuccesful. This explanation however is BS. Because in the
VERY SAME report mentioned above the following entry is found:

"Flight Unsuccesfull,
 Altitude Controls damaged on launching
 4 lifter balloons, 34 main balloons..."

So...unsuccesfull operations not recorded? Mogul a possible
explanation for the Roswell incident?

I'm sorry Dennis and others, but seems to me that balloon just
fell out of the sky....

Just my 2 cents....

Andy Denne






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                      WAMC-NY UFO Radio Show - 09-11-98

From: Larry Clark <lclark@ibm.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:17:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 16:28:20 -0400
Subject: WAMC-NY UFO Radio Show - 09-11-98


Friday, September 11, 9-10 PM, WAMC of Albany NY will be having
a radio show on UFOs.

The signal can be heard in Eastern NY, and Western CT, MA, & VT.





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                 Re: Soviet UFO show on TNT, Sunday, Sept 13

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 14:00:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 16:35:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Soviet UFO show on TNT, Sunday, Sept 13

>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Soviet UFO show on TNT, Sunday, Sept 13
>Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:12:18 -0400

>Are we in for another classic from the folks who brought us
>'Incident At Lake County'? If so, I guess I'll be a sucker
>again, because I plan on watching and taping it.

>Stanton Friedman is once again in attendance, commenting upon
>the alleged Soviet sightings. Perhaps he would be so kind as to
>let us all know whether he actually viewed the footage before
>commenting on it this time?

>Mr. Friedman?

>Sincerely,

>-Scott C. Carr
>Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
>http://www.erols.com/sardonica

>Producer, "UFO Desk"
>99.5 FM WBAI, NY

Scott,

I worry about the 'Lake County' prospect as well, but it doesn't
appear to be likely.

If anyone has Jacque Vallee's email address, it would be
interesting to see his response to this show (since he was one
of the first researchers to investigate the Soviet UFO files).

My understanding is that another prominent researcher who went
to Moscow to research the KGB files declined to take part in the
show.

Antonio Huneeus (who is also on the program) and George Filer
have seen the film clips that are to be shown and both indicate
that they are impressive; however, I think we may be heading
into another 'Alien Autopsy'-type situation where there is no
provenance for the film evidence being presented.

Antonio said that he was interviewed for the show, shown the
film clips, and then asked for his reaction to them. Few details
regarding the production were disclosed, and we'll all have to
wait for the airing this Sunday.

Antonio did say that the producers are approaching this as
"entertainment", rather than treating it as a "documentary",
which doesn't bode well.

Steve







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                        Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:01:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 15:53:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs


Hi all,

After writing and submitting my first mail regarding Ley Lines
and agriglyphs (and not agroglyphs?) (i.e., crop circles), today
(Sept. 9), I started searching on AltaVista, using "Ley lines and
crop circles" as guide words, and I found this interesting URL:

http://www.fgk.org/rowold/place1.html

There might be something here!

Regards
AWS








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                           Re: Bodies at Roswell?

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:03:42 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 16:42:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Bodies at Roswell?


>Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:39:24 -0500 (CDT)
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: Dennis  Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photos

List,

The number of UFO crash sites and alien bodies recovered isn't
the only thing Roswell holds the record for. Turns out, the town
also holds professional baseball's record for the number of home
runs hit in a single season.

In 1954, while playing in the Class B Longhorn League, Joe
Bauman hammered out 72 homers over the course of a 138-game
season. Bauman, 72, still lives in Roswell. The name of his
team? The Roswell Rockets.

hyena







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                       Re: Michael Wolf's Credentials?

From: Doc Barry <authority@webtv.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:46:51 -0700 (MST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 16:15:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Michael Wolf's Credentials?


>From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:01:19 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Conferences and Credentials

>Can anyone or Dr. Michael Wolf tell me what the following title
>and credentials are about?

>Michael Wolf, MD, PhD, ScD, JD
>National Security Council Advisory to NSC's MJ-12
>(UFO Security) Subcommittee

>I am very curious if anyone can explain this to me.

Dear Kathleen Anderson,

Explanation: the degrees are bovine excrement.

Also his claim of being a former flight surgeon in the Air Force
is more BS,

His fans explain that all his academic records have been altered
or destroyed by government agencies. Government agencies would
have had to collect hundreds of cla

The guy is a fiction writer and a fraud, period.

== Doc

~~~~~~"UFO Interest" News updated TWICE daily. "What's Up Doc?"
www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518







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                           Re: FEMA's Real Mission

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 14:18:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 16:38:41 -0400
Subject: Re: FEMA's Real Mission


>From: Gerry Lovell <ed@farshore.force9.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: FEMA's Real Mission
>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:15:57 +0100

>Source: The Salt Lake Tribune

>Date: Sept 9 1998

>There's No Hollywood Glitz in FEMA's Real Mission
>By Rick Weiland

<Article deleted for brevity>

The author of this article could have dug a bit deeper and found
that FEMA had a few additional areas of responsibility that
don't directly relate to disaster recovery.

Before its existence was made public, the undergroud facility at
Greenbrier, WV, and the Mt. Weather facility in Virginia were
both under FEMA's control.

Richard Sauder, in his book on Undergroud Bases and Tunnels,
indicated that FEMA was involved in a number of secret
facilities in the U.S. His book is actually very interesting and
he documents his information very well.

Of course, that doesn't mean that The X-Files version of FEMA's
mission is anything more than entertainment.

Steve







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                      Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:57:55 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 16:21:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'


>Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 19:03:36 +0200
>From: Gildas Bourdais <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'

>Dear List members,

>Here are some remarks about two recent discussions on the
>list.

>First the Roswell crash:

>>Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:16:18 -0500 (CDT)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Dennis  Staqcy <dstacy@texas.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>>Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 19:53:49 EDT
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>Dennis Stacy replied to David Rudiak, who had noted that general
>Ramey had begun to release the balloon explanation "before
>Marcel's plane even arrived in Fort Worth".

<snip>

>As for the bizarre description of a "relatively intact flying
>disc" in the press release, it may have been a way to try to
>give a credible account to the press, in a rather clumsy way.

>Interestingly, it does not correspond at all to the Mogul
>debris!

Mogul was _not_ up and running in July 1947 was it? I was under
the (possibly mistaken) impression that the CIA didn't talk
about it until that month so it is rather unlikely - if this is
true - that a balloon was responsible.

More like a crashed experimental aircraft from WSMR - or
somewhere similar?

>I would like now to comment on the discussion about the book
>'Alien Rapture' by Fouch=E9 and Steiger.

>I don't like the violent criticisms made on the list, but I must
>admit that there are many problems with it.

Thank you - there are some sensible people out there!


>I tried to read the book but I stopped, for the first time, when
>I reached pages 52 and 53.

>On page 52, the authors tell of the discovery of a crashed B-29
>bomber during the war in Korea, with the crew mutilated. I was
>very perplexed because I remembered a similar story, but it was
>a B-52 in Vietnam. And here it is, on page 5 !

No no, it was a Lancaster bomber that crashed in Iceland during
the Second World War....No, it was a P-51 Mustang that crashed
at Aztec!

>This bothers me a lot.

>There is another apparent contradiction, on p.. 96.

>In the same paragraph, the authors write that the vehicle mass
>is reduced by ninety-nine percent, and three lines later, by
>eighty-nine percent. On page 97, it becomes ninety percent. Make
>up your mind, gentlemen !

Exactly what I have been saying - and why wouldn't they make it
99%?

>However, I am grateful to David Rudiak for his very clear
>explanations on the concomitant reduction of G forces if the
>mass is "reduced"! Pretty obvious, though, but it has to be
>said.

Yes, and he hasn't explained it - neither has Fouche and that's
because I strongly suggest that no such technology exists....The
scientific community awaits his revelations!

>And I am sorry to disagree with the reply of Tim Matthews
>(message of 5 September):

That's OK!

>>In fact you are supporting this manipulator's wild speculations.
>>Fouch=E9 is making it all up as we all know. Did you know he's a
>>direct descendent of Napoleon ?

>Well, first, according to the introduction of Brad Steiger,
>Fouch=E9 is a descendent, not of Napoleon, but of Joseph Fouch=E9
>who was Napoleon's Prime Minister and the head of the secret
>police.

I do apologize for this small error. What such ancestry has to
do with UFO research is anyones' guess but Fouche obviously
feels that it will impress people.






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 98 11:49:12 PDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 15:52:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:09:32 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>Date: Sun, 06 Sep 98 14:22:12 PDT

>>>Gerald Anderson mentioned bodies at the site and he's been
>>>thoroughly discredited in the interval. Glenn Dennis mentioned
>>>bodies, and as far as I'm concerned, his credibility is zero,
>>>too.

>>>The Air Force didn't ask you to buy anything. Giving people like
>>>Anderson, Dennis, Kaufmann and others the benefit of the doubt
>>>(without calling them outright liars, for which they might have
>>>been sued), the Air Force simply tried to supply a scenario
>>>which might explain their accounts.

>>Let's see here. I want to be sure I've got this straight:

>>Gerald Anderson and Glenn Dennis are "outright liars," but it's
>>okay anyway for the Air Force to use their testimony to bolster
>>its absurd explanation for the bodies. Their testimony is bogus,
>>irrelevant, and useless only when it refers to _Alien_ bodies.

>I'm not sure what you mean here, but see my longer response to
>Bob Shell. In the meantime, perhaps you accept Gerald Anderson's
>memories as a five-year-old, along with Glenn Dennis's phantom
>nurse?

>Are you insinuating, BTW, that Anderson and Dennis (and Ragsdale
>and Kaufmann) are all credible witnesses simply _because_ they
>reported alien bodies? Maybe you could explain.

Wow.  If I didn't know you better, Dennis, I'd think this was an
intentional misreading of a point I should have thought you'd
have no trouble grasping.

The point was simply this. Unless one is an Air Force apologist
(as anti-Roswell ufologists tend to be, though I would have
hoped you'd be an exception), one cannot have it both ways.
Pro-Roswell ufologists routinely get savaged by the likes of you
for believing dubious stories. On the other hand, if the AF uses
those same dubious stories to posit a dubious non-UFO
explanation for the Roswell incident, that's okay, according to
you.

Weirdly, for pointing out the obvious hopelessness (not to
mention blatant and amusing hypocrisy) of the AF- apologist
position, I get accused of :"insinuating ... that Anderson and
Dennis (and Ragsdale and Kaufmann) are all credible witnesses
simply _because_ they reported alien bodies." The mind boggles.

As for the canard about Marcel's not mentioning bodies: Why
should he? If Randle is correct, the bodies were recovered at
another site from the one Marcel examined. C'mon, Dennis.

Jerry Clark







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                            Re: An Honorable Man

From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:59:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 16:24:00 -0400
Subject: Re: An Honorable Man


>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:57:48 -0500
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: An Honorable Man


>Hi All,

>I have used this forum to 'bitch' about the media and how it
>usually uses and abuses abductees and UFO witnesses. Well, I
>just want to make _as_much_noise_ about someone who is the
>exception to the rule; Jeff Rense. Just as we should criticize
>them when they get it wrong, we should reward those who 'get it
>right!'

Just to add my .02--Jeff Rense is one of the few balanced and
impartial media voices dealing with the kind of phenomena we
discuss on this list. I'm not at all surprised that he went to
the lengths he did to correct the problem you mentioned.

We need more people like Jeff in the media.  Count me in on the
choir, preacher!

Brian






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:13:02 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 03:40:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>Date: Wed, 09 Sep 98 11:49:12 PDT

<snip>

>As for the canard about Marcel's not mentioning bodies: Why
>should he? If Randle is correct, the bodies were recovered at
>another site from the one Marcel examined. C'mon, Dennis.

>Jerry Clark

It's not a canard, Jerry, it's a straightforward observation and
question to which I've yet to see a reasonable or even
semi-plausible explanation. Martin Cannon has raised some of the
same questions and no one, not even you, would ever think of
labeling him an Air Force apologist.

So let me try one more time to see if I get this straight:

Not only was Marcel not sent to the first site, where bodies
were recovered, but he was never even informed of it, right?

So I suppose Blanchard and maybe some others got together and
said something like, "You know, Marcel's a good guy and he's
trustworthy, too. I was always felt bad about him not getting to
go to the first crashed disc site and see the bodies. He was
asleep and we didn't want to wake him up. Why don't we send him
to the second crash site, if there is one? Maybe there'll be
some bodies there, too. Who knows?"

You and Randle c'mon, Jerry.

Randle has the base on alert, with half the personnel involved
in cordoning off the "other" crash site, retrieving all the
wreckage, and removing the bodies to the base for autopsies,
where they're supposedly seen accidentally by a house painter
and theoretically others (he even has the civilian fire
department out at the crash site), and Marcel isn't even _told_
about it? (And all these years I've been laboring under the
impression that he was the base _Intelligence_ Officer. I guess
alien cadavers didn't count as an intelligence matter back
then.)

But then he's sent out to recover a second disc and isn't even
briefed about what to possibly expect? And no platoons of
soldiers accompany him and Cavitt to secure the area? And
Blanchard doesn't issue a press release about the first
recovery, but he does for the second one? Don't talk to me about
hypocrisy. This doesn't make a lick of sense, and you know it.

And it has nothing to do with apologizing for the Air Force, and
you know that as well. Why don't you call me an apologist for
the GAO, too, while you're at it?

The only thing I'm apologetic for is trying to make sense of the
hopelessly muddled Roswell scenario put out by Randle and
others.

Dennis






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                           Puerto Rico - Contacts

From: Max Burns <AlienHype1@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:56:27 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 03:37:42 -0400
Subject: Puerto Rico - Contacts

Hi all,

Does anybody out there in the world of high technology, have any
contacts who are living in Puerto Rico who have video UFO footage
which they own the copyright to?

The owner of any such tape and the tape itself would need to be
available for interviews concerning the recorded footage, for a
TV crew arriving there this Sunday.

Please could you forward your name and that of your contact to me
so as we can arrange a meeting or alternativly could you please
forward this to them so that they can contact me direct.

Thank you

Max Burns





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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:08:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 05:03:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:56:46 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

Dennis and list -

I usually avoid these arguments because they normally lead
nowhere. However, there are a couple of comments that I think
need to be made.

<snip>

>For that matter, Blanchard never mentioned bodies, either. Why
>not? Having already spilled the beans about the recovery of a
>flying disc (which his press release apparently referred to as
>"relatively intact," why omit the bodies?

No one spoke to Blanchard about this. We don't know what he
might have known or didn't know. The reason to omit the bodies
was because that takes the discussion to another level.

>(Brief aside: Most Roswell hotbloods fail to address the strange
>circumstances surrounding the original Blanchard press release.
>One, why did Blanchard release it in the first place, presumably
>without having first secured higher approval?

(Brief aside: Blanchard was under no obligation to appeal to
higher authority to make a press release. He was authorized, as
commanding officer of the 509th Bomb Group to make press
releases. This is a moot point.

> Two, how did he
>manage to get it so wrong? He would have interviewed Blanchard
>and Marcel and seen the shredded debris for himself, yet his
>press release says "the flying object _landed_ [my
>emphasis]...[and] the rancher _stored the disc_ [my
>emphasis]...Action was immeditely taken and the disc was picked
>up at the rancher's home." Given that it obviously didn't land
>and was in a jillion pieces, how did it get assumed that
>whatever it was was disc-shaped? Was Blanchard winging it? And
>if Marcel was such an infallible Intelligence Officer, why did
>he stop by home to show it to his family before first reporting
>to Blanchard, aurely a blatant violation of security
>procedures?)

(Brief point NO. 2 - If he got it so wrong, maybe it was because
this was a cover story and not the truth. Colonel DuBose said
this was a cover story and he was there too.)

It could be said (this is speculation) that the press release
was issue to draw attention AWAY from Roswell. Marcel, it was
noted was on an airplane to Fort Worth. The rancher wasn't named
in that article and wasn't on the ranch on July 8 anyway. Could
it be that the press release was made with consultation with
higher authority and was designed to divert attention?

>Remember that in the Randle/Schmitt Roswell scenario, the bodies
>are recovered _before_ Brazel ever comes into town. Why wouldn't
>Marcel, as the base intelligence officer, have been sent out on
>_that_ recovery? Or, if he was being kept out of the loop then
>-- for some unfathomable reason -- why would he have been sent
>out on the second recovery (at the Foster ranch)? Similarly, if
>bodies were recovered at a second site _after_ Marcel retrieved
>the debris from the Foster ranch, again, as base IO, why would
>he be kept out of the loop then?

>Simply put, such a scenario makes no sense.

Simply put, I am tired of those who were not intelligence
officers, or military officers for that matter, commenting on
this based on what they believe rather than on what the
situation demands.

In other words, if Marcel was not physically present on the base
on July 4 and 5 when the bodies were recovered, he might not
have been briefed on it.

When, on July 6, Brazel appeared with a box of debris, Marcel,
because he was on duty, was sent to check on it. This could be
accomplished without his being told that there had been bodies
recovered. To keep a secret, the best way is to limit the number
of people involved in keeping it. There was no need to tell
Marcel about the bodies, he had no need to know about them, and
he could complete his task without knowing of them.

Others, including Edwin Easley and Sheridan Cavitt said that we
should talk to James Breece who was Marcel's deputy in 1947. I
spent a good deal of time andeffort trying to locate Breece. I
talked to a couple of Jim Breeces, and talked to the widow of
one. When I finally got his serial number, we (and here I should
mention Dave Ford) learned that he had died about fifteen years
ago. If Breece had the duty on July 4 and 5, then he would have
full knowledge of the event. If that end of the recovery was
completed by July 6, when Marcel came on duty, then there would
be no reason to inform him. (Yes, this is speculation, just as
all this other nonsense is.)

Remember, Bill Rickett described a scene he witnessed in which
Marcel, a major, wanted to see Cavitt's (a captain) report, but
Cavitt refused. Could this report have mentioned something about
the recovery of the craft and bodies? Yes, this is speculation,
just as other comments about the rationale behind actions is
speculation.

But this isn't really the end. All we know is that Marcel didn't
say a word about bodies... Or did he. According to Nelson
Marcel, quoted in THE COURIER of February 25, 1996, Jesse told
him that he had seen "one of several pygmy alien bodies that
were recovered from the wreckage."

On the other side of the coin, however, is Jesse, Jr. I asked
him, specifically, about bodies. He said that his father had
never mentioned them. It seems more likely to me (remember here
that I am now speculating) that Jesse Sr. would have told his
son about bodies had there been any.

But the point is, according to a Marcel relative, Jesse, Sr. did
mention bodies.

>Everyone wants to argue that Marcel would have known everything,
>but then they fail to account for his highly conspicuous failure
>to ever mention bodies. It seems as least likely, if not
>logical, that Marcel never mentioned bodies for the very simple
>reason that there were none.

Everyone does not argue that Marcel would have known everything.
There are those who suggest there was no gouge in the terrain
because Marcel never mentioned it. Well, that turns out not to
be quite right either. According to a taped interview made in
1980 of Jesse Marcel, Sr. he did mention a gouge. We cannot
conclude that there were no bodies because we have no record of
Marcel mentioning them just as some have suggested there was no
gouge because Marcel hadn't mentioned it.

>In fact, the only account that puts Marcel in conctact with, or
>in knowledge of, bodies is the fictional one that appears in the
>Corso/Birnes book, noteth the Hyena.

While not exactly true (that is, Corso is not the only one to
put Marcel in contact with the bodies, I would have to agree
that Corso's account is fictional.

>>I think the Air Force gave away their hand when they tried
>>to explain bodies at all.  Personally, I take this as a
>>tacit admission that bodies, or something resembling bodies,
>>did turn up at the crash site.

>>To each his own.

>>Bob


>Indeed, take it however you wish. The AF, however, is quite
>upfront about why the issue of bodies is addressed at all:
>because several people claimed to have seen bodies, and those
>accounts comprise part of the Roswell literature. The "body"
>accounts of Jim Ragsdale, Gerald Anderson and Glenn Dennis are
>examined in some detail.

>Think of the AF what you will (and call my middle name Hyena),
>but none of these alleged eyewitnesses have a shred of
>credibility left. Ragsdale changed his story (and crash site) so
>much that even Randle disavowed him. Anderson (who claimed to be
>five years old at the time he saw bodies) was caught forging
>"evidence" of same. Glenn Dennis has yet to document his nurse
>or even provide her real name, assuming she ever existed.
>According to William Haut, Dennis never mentioned anything about
>bodies to him until 1988 or 89. Efforts on the part of
>investigators, both military and ufological, to document
>Dennis's nurse have failed miserably.

>Given that, the Air Force had two basic choices: either call the
>witnesses deluded or self-serving liars (unlikely on the part of
>any government agency because of procedural rules, save for
>maybe federal criminal prosecutors) or try to provide a
>plausible explanation for such accounts, however implausible it
>might strike you, me, or others. Crash dummies weren't their
>only suggestion, by the way, they also mentioned the crash of a
>tanker plane in which the bodies of the crew were brought to
>Roswell for examination.

Excuse me. It is unlikely the Air Force would call the witnesses
deluded or self-serving because of procedural rules. We have a
whole list of cases in which the Air Force did exactly that. All
we have to do is look at official explanations for UFO sightings
and we see a list of cases in which the Air Force suggests that
the sighters are deluded, hoaxers, known liars and the like. If
it suited their purposes, they certainly would have attacked
from that point of view.

However, the Air Force response makes no sense if the Roswell
crash was just a balloon. Why not just leave it at that? Why the
need to account for tales of the bodies? Why the selection of
the specific witnesses, who have all been descredited? If we are
going to speculate about actions, why not speculate about the
Air Force rationale here? Why would they care what a bunch of
UFO nuts believe, unless there is something more?

>For what it's worth, I don't accept (or apply) the AF dummy/dead
>crewmen scenario, either. It's much simpler to assume that
>Ragsdale and Anderson were simply making things up as they went.
>Dennis, I have misgivings for. I think History knocked on his
>door and he succumbed to temptation to expand his role in same.
>Once that happened, however, there was no turning back.

Here, I have to agree with Dennis. We can demonstrate that both
Ragsdale and Anderson altered their tales, included new details
as they learned about them, and were, as suggested, making it up
as they went along.Glenn  Dennis, however, might fall into the
same catagory. We have not been able to find a hint of his
nurse, even after he gave us the "real" name in confidence. When
we, and I need to mention Vic Golubic here, failed to find any
evidence that she ever existed, Glenn Dennis changed the name.
That suggests he was making it up as he went along.

>By the same token, and since it can hardly harm my reputation
>further, I suspect that if Dennis's failure to deliver his
>infamous nurse is any indication, his remarks about being
>threatened with death are probably highly suspect, as well.

I would have to agree with this as well.

KRandle





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                  Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 20:18:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 05:09:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:09:31 -0400
>Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 13:02:03 -0400
>Subject: Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles


>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>Subject: Re: Space-based Microwaves & Crop Circles
>>Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 14:15:50 -0400

<snip>

>Very Good! Show's you're using your noggin for something other
>than a hair garden.


Bruce,

I wish you the same although, judging from the last time I saw
you on TV, your hair garden seemed a little neglected <g>.

Always glad to get a pat in the back from an expert in the
field.  I was expecting another reply though from an authority
who "more than marginally knows what he is discussing", at least
something better than a statement as broad as:

>In this case we are talking turbulence at a great distance
>(hundred miles?). I don't know how to calculate the difference,
>but based on this I would say that your calculation is an
>overestimate of the spot size or resolution at the earth's
>surface.

I recommend the following if you want to update yourself on the
latest developments in Satellite Imagery:

http://hightech.cplaza.or.jp/1996/19960624/19960625/02/emain.htm

For better stuff try:

http://ufomind.com/military/topic/sat/
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/terra_where.htm
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/terra_spin2.htm
http://www.spin-2.com/

And find:

"SPIN-2r is the worlds highest resolution, commercially
available satellite imagery. SPIN-2 Imagery has a resolution of
2 meters (1.56 meter pixel size). This panchromatic digital
imagery is ortho-rectified and geo-referenced to very precise
accuracy. SPIN-2 Imagery is a cost effective alternative to
conventional aerial photography. "

But the best is yet to come when one reaches:

http://www.fas.org/

and learns that:

"The Federation of American Scientists is engaged in analysis
and advocacy on science, technology and public policy for global
security. A privately-funded non-profit policy organization
whose Board of Sponsors includes over 55 American Nobel
Laureates, FAS was founded as the Federation of Atomic
Scientists in 1945 by members of the Manhattan Project who
produced the first atomic bomb."

and gets to:

http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/index.html

then to:

http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/kh-12.htm

finally to:

http://www.fas.org/spp/military/program/imint/kh-12.htm

to read about the "KH-12 IMPROVED CRYSTAL"

"The KH-12's sophisticated electronics provides sharper images
than the KH-11, comparable in quality to the best of the film
return satellites, with a resolution approaching ten
centimeters."

Of course, it's a lot more complicated than that, but you learn
quickly there is a gap between science and technology.

From my part, I hope you are using your computer and the Net
for something else than an elaborate stone slab and chisel
device.  If you do, I'll hug you.


Serge Salvaille






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   Sep > Sep 10

                 Brookhaven National Labs Alien Crash Site?

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:20:24 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 04:15:06 -0400
Subject: Brookhaven National Labs Alien Crash Site?

Does anyone on this list have

1) Any information regarding an alledged crash of an alien craft
at Brookhaven Labs?

2) Have knowledge of reports which may be researched of such an
incident?

3) Have knowledge of the whereabouts of possible witnesses?

Any information would be appreciated... pro or con.

Thank you in advance.

Jim





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                                     Re:

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:56:46 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 05:03:29 -0400
Subject: Re:

>Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:56:46 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


Dennis, et al.

There was _never_ a "press conference" held in connection with
the Roswell Event. None was ever announced and no member of the
media ever was invited to attend a press conference. Just one
solitary reporter acting on a wire service tip showed up at
General Ramey's office in Fort Worth uninvited and unannounced
with his new press camera under his arm while the Roswell debris
was being unpacked on July 8, 1947.

_No_other_ member of the press _ever_ was briefed by General
Ramey concerning the Roswell Event (other than his brief radio
announcement later that night) or was _ever_ -- for 51 years! --
allowed to view, examine, touch or photograph the alleged
Roswell "Flying Saucer". I know. I was that
reporter/photographer.

James Bond Johnson





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                            Re: Mogul Explanation

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:13:04 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 05:07:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Mogul Explanation


>Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 16:47:57 +0200
>From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Mogul Explanation

>Hi,

>I've been thinking over this Mogul-explanation for the Roswell
>incident, but that theory seems to have some flaws in it too.
>For example:

>The Mogul-project that is thought to be the cause of the Roswell
>Circus was flight 4, on the 4th of June '47. According to people
>who were present at that time, this balloon was lost track of,
>above Arobella, about 20 miles from the crash-site.

> BUT: According to the papers of the College of Engineering NYU,
> Research Division, the Program Rapport for Constant Level
>Balloons there WAS no flight sceduled or recorded at that date!

> The paper, prepared for Air Materiel Command showed only the
>following entries:

>"3 jun. 1947  Bethlehem, Pennsylvania
> 5 jun. 1947  Alamogordo, New Mexico
> 7 jun. 1947  Alamogordo, New Mexico"

>However asking "how that is possible?", the following
>explanation was given:

>The flight obviously wasn't put on record because the operation
>was unsuccesful. This explanation however is BS. Because in the
>VERY SAME report mentioned above the following entry is found:

> "Flight Unsuccesfull,
> Altitude Controls damaged on launching
> 4 lifter balloons, 34 main balloons..."

>So...unsuccesfull operations not recorded? Mogul a possible
>explanation for the Roswell incident?

>I'm sorry Dennis and others, but seems to me that balloon just
>fell out of the sky....

>Just my 2 cents....

>Andy Denne

Hi Andy and List -

Before Robert Todd, Dennis Stacy or anyone jumps in on this I'll
thrown in this. We know about Flight No. 4 because the project
director, Dr. Albert Crary, kept a diary of the launches and his
diary mentions they flew balloons on June 4, but that it was not
a regular flight because of weather. The diary, however, makes
no mention of Arabella, NM. This is based on Charles Moore's
memory of what happened to the flight.

KRandle





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                            Re: An Honorable Man

From: Pamela Stonebrooke <galactic_diva@telis.org>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:18:42 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:22:22 -0400
Subject: Re: An Honorable Man


>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: An Honorable Man
>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:59:37 -0500

>>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:57:48 -0500
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Subject: An Honorable Man

>>Hi All,

>>I have used this forum to 'bitch' about the media and how it
>>usually uses and abuses abductees and UFO witnesses. Well, I
>>just want to make _as_much_noise_ about someone who is the
>>exception to the rule; Jeff Rense. Just as we should criticize
>>them when they get it wrong, we should reward those who 'get it
>>right!'

>Just to add my .02--Jeff Rense is one of the few balanced and
>impartial media voices dealing with the kind of phenomena we
>discuss on this list. I'm not at all surprised that he went to
>the lengths he did to correct the problem you mentioned.

>We need more people like Jeff in the media. Count me in on the
>choir, preacher!

>Brian

I'm singing too. I had the opportunity to do a show with Jeff
and my respect for him is beyond words. My experiences are
beyond the pale for most and he never once sensationalized.  He
demonstrated nothing but compassion, sensitivity and respect. He
is unique...we are fortunate to have him in the field and on the
"waves". A man of integrity with a true sense of humanity...
rare...I know that many are extremely grateful for his
contribution.

Pamela





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                The Kecksburg Files - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 02:26:22 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:00:03 -0400
Subject: The Kecksburg Files - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette


Source: The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

http://www.post-gazette.com:80/magazine/19980908ufo1.asp

Stig

*******


The Kecksburg Files

UFO researcher's video explores several theories about 1965
crash in Westmoreland County

Wednesday, September 09, 1998

By David Templeton, Post-Gazette Staff Writer

Since the uncertain events of Dec. 9, 1965, debate has raged,
friendships have soured, rumors have waxed, theories have arisen
and Internet stories have proliferated over what crash-landed
that day in the rural village of Kecksburg, Westmoreland County.

(Image: "It's been almost 33 years and we still don't have an
answer," says Stan Gordon, who has studied the Kecksburg crash
since the day it happened. He's sitting in his "command center"
in his Greensburg home. (Matt Freed, Post-Gazette)

The military insisted it was a meteorite that was never
recovered.

UFO skeptics have held that, if not an outright hoax, it was
surely something as explainable as the Soviet Venus probe,
Kosmos 96, or an experimental American spacecraft that went
flip-flop into Kecksburg's midsection only to be recovered by a
quick and secretive military.

But UFO researchers, who say the Kecksburg incident is second
only to the one at Roswell, N.M., in terms of drama and
potential, have suggested with as much imagination as fact that
it was alien visitors who chose Kecksburg as their Sea of
Tranquility.

All of which has transformed the event that happened 33 years
ago into one of America's most intriguing UFO mysteries.

(Image: Sketch by Charles Hanna represents an object that landed
in Kecksburg on Dec. 9, 1965, thought by some to be a UFO. (Matt
Freed, Post-Gazette)=BF

The Kecksburg incident has served as fodder for episodes of
"Unsolved Mysteries" and "Sightings" television broadcasts. The
mock-up spacecraft built for the "Unsolved Mysteries" broadcast
now sits atop the Kecksburg fire hall as the only lasting sign
of the village's controversial claim to fame.

Now, Greensburg UFO researcher Stan Gordon, who has studied the
Kecksburg crash since the day it happened, has produced a
92-minute documentary titled, "Kecksburg: The Untold Story,"
that provides eyewitness accounts and claims that surely will
bolster debate.

As the cover says, "New Mexico has Roswell, but in Pennsylvania,
it was Kecksburg,"

The most persistent Kecksburg researcher, Gordon has long kept
an open mind as to what may have landed, but always has been
intrigued by possibilities of an extraterrestrial visit. He now
adds to the literature, legend and litany with his video that
provides not only overwhelming evidence that something
acorn-shaped landed in Kecksburg's lap that day, but also new
accounts that what landed was extraterrestrial.

Written and narrated by Gordon, 48, the video provides numerous
eyewitness testimonials from people who saw the fireball cruise
at rather low speeds and altitudes across the southwestern
Pennsylvania sky, maneuver, complete some turns and finally put
down in Kecksburg's woods, about 7 miles southeast of
Greensburg.

Others who went rummaging through the woods that early evening
say they saw an acorn-shaped spacecraft half buried in a gully.
Many others, including news reporters, saw Kecksburg crawling
with military personnel from the Air Force, Army and NASA that
evening, while others saw a Volkswagen Beetle-sized craft
removed under a tarpaulin on the back of a military flatbed
truck. Still others say they saw it being hauled to
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio.

Swirling with eerie music, subplots, mysteries and theories, the
video builds to a well-orchestrated climax of two men claiming
evidence that it was an extraterrestrial spacecraft. One even
claims to have seen what appeared to be a deceased,
lizard-skinned creature partially covered by a sheet inside a
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base hangar.

Gordon comes to no conclusions, except that something definitely
landed in Kecksburg at 4:45 p.m. on that day. While entertaining
the possibility that the craft was American or Soviet, Gordon
provides reasons why those explanations are lacking. He leaves
the viewer with the definite sense that his research points
squarely at something more profound.

"It's an intriguing story," he said in a recent interview. "It's
been almost 33 years and we still don't have an answer. A lot of
key witnesses have passed away, are up in age, or not in the
best of health. This was the best way to have them tell their
story themselves about what they experienced."

His video provides detailed history of the Kecksburg incident
along with a long string of witnesses who provide theories,
surprises and intrigue, yet leave the viewer yearning for some
conclusion. With that in mind, Gordon asks viewers to petition
members of Congress to schedule hearings to collect testimony
and help solve the lingering mystery.

For years, debate has been escalating.

A 1991 article in The Pittsburgh Press described generally what
happened, based on various witnesses accounts that are included
in greater detail in Gordon's video.

Dec. 9, 1965, was a dreary day in Westmoreland County - that is,
until what was described as a roundish fireball appeared. It
reportedly seared the gray sky at low altitude with a jet trail,
then made S-turns and what appeared to be a controlled landing
through the treetops into Kecksburg's woods.

The fireball was seen across the northeastern United States and
was the subject of numerous newscasts that day.

Local residents headed toward the landing site. James Romansky
and others trailed the object into the woods by observing the
arc-wielding flames and bluish sparklers evident through the
trees after the landing.

The object was 12 feet long and 6 to 7 feet in diameter, and
shaped like an acorn. It had a ring around the base, just like
an acorn, that bore what Romansky described as backward letters,
like a backward J or K. Some have described the lettering as
resembling Egyptian hieroglyphics - lines, stars, circles and
shapes. The craft had no doors or windows. The metal was
seamless, with a dent, but bearing no rivets or welds.

The local men soon were chased away by U.S. military officials
who announced that the landing site was off-limits to all
civilians.

As the writer of the 1991 article, this reporter explored
whether the spacecraft could have been the Soviet Venus probe
known as Kosmos 96. The U.S. Space Command reported that Kosmos
96 crash-landed in Canada shortly after 3 a.m. - more than 12
hours before the Kecksburg crash at 4:45 p.m.

To this day, Kosmos 96 cannot be discounted as a possibility.

Kosmos 96 was shaped like an acorn and may have had the ability
to maneuver to land on Venus. As a Venus probe, it also was
equipped with state-of-the-art heat shield technology that could
have allowed the craft to survive the long, heated ride through
Earth's atmosphere before landing in Kecksburg.

But there are discrepancies. Eyewitnesses, including Romansky,
insist the writing on the girth was not Russian. Others claim
that while the right shape, it was not the right size, and did
not bear the seams and rivets that characterized Soviet and U.S.
spacecraft of that era.

In 1991, I obtained the ordinants from the Goddard Space Center
for the flight of Kosmos 96. I had James Oberg, an expert on
Soviet spacecraft who also is a UFO skeptic, review the
ordinants to see if it could have been Kosmos 96. Oberg
concluded that, based on the ordinants provided by the Goddard
Space Center, it could not be Kosmos 96 - a point that, to
Oberg's dismay, buoyed UFO advocates and has continued to be a
hot topic on the Internet.

But Oberg amended his theories in an article published in
September 1993 on the OMNI service on America On Line. There, he
suggested that the Kosmos 96 theory could account for U.S. Space
Command's conclusions that it landed in Canada and also in
Kecksburg.

Oberg says the failed Soviet probe "whose booster had blown up
in parking orbit, would have been a wonderful UFO."

Oberg acknowledges that the ordinants, which have been reviewed
by a leading amateur satellite watcher who didn't want his name
revealed, seemed to confirm the official Air Force account that
Kosmos 96 crashed in Canada more than 12 hours earlier than the
Kecksburg crash. But Oberg checked the data further. The
released tracking data, he said, couldn't be positively
identified with specific pieces of the failed probe.

"It could have been jettisoned rocket stage of a large piece of
space junk," he wrote. "The probe itself could have headed off
toward Kecksburg."

Oberg proceeds to explain why the U.S. military would lie, or at
least decide not to divulge everything it knew about the
Kecksburg crash.

"In the 1960s, U.S. military intelligence agencies interested in
enemy technology were eagerly collecting all the Soviet missile
and space debris they could find. International law required
that debris be returned to the country of origin. But hardware
from Kosmos 96, with its special missile-warhead shielding,
would have been too valuable to give back."

After all, he concluded, what better camouflage than to let
people think the fallen object was not a Soviet probe, but a
flying saucer?

"The Russians would never suspect, and the Air Force
laboratories could examine the specimen at leisure. And if
suspicion lingered, UFO buffs would be counted on to maintain
the phony cover story, protecting the real truth."

For that reason, Oberg concluded, the Kecksburg scenario
produced "delicious irony."

"A famous UFO case may actually involve a real U.S. government
cover-up, but UFO buffs are on the wrong side. Instead of
exposing the truth, they may be unwitting pawns in deception."

The other unexplored avenue to solve the Kecksburg mystery was
to approach Soviet, now Russian, authorities to provide
information on what truly happened to Kosmos 96. But in 1991,
the Soviet Embassy would only speculate that anything that
crash-landed in American turf was probably American technology
that the U.S. was too embarrassed to acknowledge.

That's similar to the response that Gordon got from the Russian
government when he posed the same question.

In May, during an interview of a Russian Cosmonaut Viktor P.
Savinykh, who now serves as rector of Moscow State University of
Geodesy and Cartography, I took the opportunity through an
interpreter to ask him whether he could help solve the Kecksburg
mystery. He, too, suggested rather emphatically, and with some
laughter, that whatever plunged into Kecksburg surely was some
faulty American technology.

But extraterrestrial claims cannot be entertained until the
Kosmos 96 theory is put to rest.

In 1962, the United States and Soviet Union forged a gentleman's
agreement that any spacecraft that landed within the other's
borders would be returned. However, the United States had
fast-acting military units that traveled the globe at moment's
notice to recover American and Soviet space hardware wherever it
fell.

The Kecksburg crash occurred in the middle of the Cold War and
the space race, and America was especially interested in
heat-shield technology. So, if Kosmos 96 had landed in
Kecksburg, there's no doubt that the U.S. military would have
been interested in finding it.

Gordon's video provides plenty of evidence that the military
would not have responded so quickly, and declared what could
only be described as martial law in Kecksburg, if it was
responding only to a meteorite.

Whether you adhere to theories of a hoax, Kosmos 96 or
extraterrestrial spacecraft, Gordon's video provides a thorough
account of the crash-landing, and the many explanations of what
happened.

To obtain a copy of "Kecksburg: The Untold Story" call
888-UFO-VIEW (888-836-8439). The video costs $29.95 plus $5.95
for shipping and handling and state sales tax.





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                        Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

From: RobIrving <RobIrving@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:36:58 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:18:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs


>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:19:00 +0100
>Subject: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

Asgeir,

> ...I wonder whether there were
> significantly many more crop circle formations in March 1989,
> e.g. in Canada? Maybe in England?

I doubt it. You might find the occasional circle in oilseed rape
(or Canola) at that time of year (in England), but the majority
appear much later with cereal crops. The same goes for Canada.

> A vortex-like energy also seems to appear within these
> formations, and "Considerable evidence shows that crop circles
> have been known throughout Earth's history."

So where is this evidence? The earliest record of anything like
a crop circle is a pamphlet dated 1678, describing a feud
between a farmer and workers which resulted in his crop being
cut. It was more likely a case of theft than any vortex-like
energy and hardly 'considerable evidence' of an historical
precedent.

Rob







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             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:37:02 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:17:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re:  Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?
>Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 23:20:05 PDT

Leanne,

>It was reported, on this List recently, that a circle appeared
>"within minutes" in a guarded field. A field that was under
>observation so there were no hoaxers involved - if the lister
>had reported honestly. By 'observable' I meant that no hoaxers
>were observed in its very quick creation - just a few minutes.
>Sorry for any confusion on that point.

Believe it or not, not everything reported on this list is actual fact,
even when reported honestly.

The event to which you are most likely referring occurred in
1991 at (or below) Morgan's Hill, near Devizes, Wiltshire. On
top of the hill were two organized watches, namely 'Operation
Chameleon', fronted by the BBC's David Morgenstern and John
MacNish, and Dr Terence Meaden's 'Operation Blue Hill'.  The
formation did not arrive 'within minutes' in the sense inferred,
but was only noticed after a thick mist had cleared soon after
dawn. It had been there for a couple of hours at least.

Morgenstern, MacNish and Meaden all believe that the formation
was made by a group of circlemakers collectively known as UBI,
who at that time voluntarily manned a number of such operations
and were closely associated with Colin Andrews.

Moreover, the UBI were observed entering the field, and some of
its members have since admitted making the formation, although
it's unlikely that you'll read about this on any circles
website.

However, you would have read about their activities in an
article by Jim Schnabel and myself for the Independent magazine
(29-8-92), entitled 'Rolling Their Own', and various books since
(by MacNish, for example). It's unlikely that you'll find any
reference to these on circles websites either.

One of the most interesting aspects of this subject, to me, is
how stories such as this one evolve from myth - repeated every
year in different forms - into fact, like urban folklore. I
could cite a number of similar accounts since 1991 (most
famously the so-called 'Julia Set' formation in 1995) of circles
forming within minutes or sooner, but they rarely survive
scrutiny.

(Another long-standing myth, of course, is that SDI's satellites
are playing microwave etch-a-sketch in wheat fields.)

Rob





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   Sep > Sep 10

                    Key to 'Why Lie About Roswell Crash?'

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 18:05:02 PDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:05:45 -0400
Subject: Key to 'Why Lie About Roswell Crash?'


Dear List,

After reading many posts on this list about the why's and
wherefore's of the supposed Roswell crash and why some would
amend the initial press release, the following occurs to me:-

1. A strange vehicle crashes in the desert and is reported to
  the military by civilians;

2. The IO of the nearest military base inspects the crash;

3. The IO presumably gets approval for a press release;

4. The press release is later pulled and and replaced with an
   apparent cover;

5. Civies are then supposedly coerced into either changing their
   stories to accomodate military 'facts', or denying their
   stories altogether;

6. Military IO goes on to illustrious career for botching a PR
   issue.


My thoughts:

1. The IO convinces superiors that initially the story is
   'unhidable' owing to the nature, and knowledge, of the
   vehicle's discovery by perceivably 'too many' civies;

2. On this basis he gets approval to go public;

3. Superior's superiors spit the dummy at being left out of the
   loop at critical stage and losing 'containment'.

4. Cover is quickly concocted and initial press release is
   pulled.

5. IO quickly arranges for the cover to be enacted and for the
   civilians to rounded up and coerced, thereby wiping egg off
   RAAF's face in least damaging way. Career takes off as a
   reward (or even bribe).


Questions:

1. Why would a seasoned military IO 'confuse' a crashed balloon
   for any other type of vehicle?

2. Why would a seasoned military IO not realise that an
   unidentifiable craft may well be a highly classified
   experimental vehicle that should be immediately quarantined
   upon its discovery, and bring the civies immediately to
   ground with whatever is the U.S. equivalent of "The Official
   Secrets Act"?

3. What would throw a seasoned military IO into such a tizz that
   he his recommended path of action would be to go public about
   the crash of an unidentified vehicle?

The most likely probable answer:-

The crashed vehicle contained identifiably non-terran remains.


Well, that's my 3.6 cents worth (2c at the current $Aus exchange
rate).

Regards,
Leanne Martin
Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia







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   Sep > Sep 10

                        'Out There' Online Talk Show

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 02:42:30 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:48:48 -0400
Subject: 'Out There' Online Talk Show


Received via "alt.alien.visitors" September 9.

Stig

*******

Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 08:09:32 -0400
From: Chef Groovy <jdshaffer@qx.net>
Subject: "Out There" online talk show

Following in the footsteps of the likes of Art Bell, Laura Lee
and other "paranormal" shows is "Out There"..   Completely
independent and commercial free paranormal discussion and
theorization..

will discuss anything from time travel to ancient civilizations
like Sumeria and all those..

streaming real audio, give it a listening
http://jdshaffer.qx.net/outthere/






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   Sep > Sep 10

                           Brown Mountain Lights?

From: Doc Landry <landryp1@home.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 20:15:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:52:56 -0400
Subject: Brown Mountain Lights?


Hello everyone:

I was wondering if anyone else had a different version of these
events, or a different story relating to the lights on Brown
Mountain. Below is all the info I could find. I am working on a
research paper and would appreciate any info you may have.
Please send your replies to me personally as not to interfere
with the list.

Thank you all for you patience and time;-)

Doc

                             Brown Mountain Lights

Brown Mountain in North Carolina at the end of the Blue Ridge
Mountain chain, is as we all know famous for it's enigmatic
nocturnal lights.

In May 1977, ORION (the Oak Ridge Isochronous Observation
Network) placed a 500,000 candlepower arc light in Lenoir, which
is 22 miles east of Brown Mountain. At the same time, a group of
observers gathered on an overlook on Route 181, which is 3.5
miles west of Brown Mountain, a favorite spot for watching for
the Brown Mountain lights. An experiment showed that when the
arc light was switched on, the observers saw an orange-red orb
hovering several degrees above the crest of Brown Mountain.
Final conclusion; the majority of the so-called Brown Mountain
lights, particularly those seen above the crest, are refractions
of artificial lights.

The real Brown Mountain lights, the mysterious ones, are those
that flit through the trees well below the crest.These lights
are extremely rare. Various observers descriptions are that they
commence as a brilliant blue-white or yellow light, which tapers
off to a dull red before disappearing, all in 2 to 10 seconds.
Horizontal motion is often only a degree or so, although some
older reports have the lights wandering greater distances at
speeds faster than a human could manage in the difficult
terrain.

In an experiment to determine whether the "true" Brown Mountain
lights might be seismic in origin, ORION detonated small charges
on Brown Mountain in July 1981. No artificially stimulated
lights were recorded. The lights seen on Brown Mountain are
according to my research the subject of a family legend. At any
rate here goes.

Brown Mountain was named after a plantation family who owned
slaves. During the Civil War, one man was a colonel in the
Confederate Army. He was wounded, and came home in 1863 or
thereabouts. One day he went up the mountain and did not return.
After a few days, they sent the man's personal servant after
him. The servant's name was Jim. He took only a little food,
some water, and two lanterns. He had grown up on the mountain,
and did not expect to look for long. Brown Mountain is not a big
place.

The servant also never returned. No trace of Jim or his master
was ever found, and no one knows what happened to them, to this
day. Shortly after they disappeared two bobbing lights started
to appear on the mountain. The legend has it that these lights
are the lanterns Jim took with him and that he is still looking
for his lost master .Another version says that the lights are Jim
and his master, each carrying a lantern, trying to find their
way back to the home  which is no longer there.

I don't know how accurate any of this is  but it was all I could
find on the Brown Mountain lights.






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   Sep > Sep 10

                              Barwood Defeated

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 02:57:45 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:59:50 -0400
Subject: Barwood Defeated


Source: The Arizona Daily Star

http://www.azstarnet.com/public/dnews/126-6093.html

Unfortunately the paper repeats its incorrect statement that
Frances Barwood has distanced herself from UFO believers.
Compare her own denial which was distributed by UFO Updates on
September 6, URL

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/sep/m06-005.shtml

Stig

*******

Wednesday, 9 September 1998

Secretary of state: It's Bayless vs. Hamilton

By Jill Jorden Spitz
The Arizona Daily Star

Secretary of State Betsey Bayless, hoping to keep the job she
was appointed to last fall, will face Democrat Art Hamilton in
the November general election.

Bayless captured the Republican nomination last night by
defeating former Phoenix City Council member Frances Emma
Barwood.

Hamilton, the House minority leader, was the lone Democrat in
the race.

In another Republican primary - which is, in effect, a general
election because there is no Democratic candidate - state Sen.
Carol Springer, 61, defeated businessman D.L. Culiver, 39, in
the race to be the next state treasurer.

Springer captured about 62 percent of the vote to 38 percent for
Culiver, the former owner of a Phoenix auto dealership, with
about 73 percent of statewide precincts counted.

With the same number of precincts counted, Bayless had 73
percent of the vote to Barwood's 27 percent.

Bayless, 54, is a former member of the Maricopa County Board of
Supervisors who has 17 years of state government experience. She
was director of the Department of Administration, acting
director of the Department of Revenue and assistant director of
the Arizona Board of Regents.

Bayless was named to the post after it was vacated by Jane Hull.
Hull rose to the Governor's Office after the bank fraud
conviction of former Gov. Fife Symington.

Barwood, 54, captured headlines during her City Council stint by
demanding an explanation of the mysterious lights hundreds of
Phoenix residents reported seeing in March 1997. In announcing
her candidacy early this year, she was accompanied by UFO
researchers who said the campaign would be the first to focus on
UFOs.

Extraterrestrial sightings never were a campaign issue, though,
and Barwood has distanced herself from the UFO contingent.

Both the secretary of state and the state treasurer positions
pay
$54,600 a year.






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   Sep > Sep 10

                       Re: Roswell and 'Alien Rapture'

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:44:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:12:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell and 'Alien Rapture'


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:56:46 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture' -- A "Press" Response

>>Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:56:46 -0500 (CDT)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>Dennis, et al.

>There was _never_ a "press conference" held in connection with
>the Roswell Event. None was ever announced and no member of the
>media ever was invited to attend a press conference. Just one
>solitary reporter acting on a wire service tip showed up at
>General Ramey's office in Fort Worth uninvited and unannounced
>with his new press camera under his arm while the Roswell debris
>was being unpacked on July 8, 1947.

>_No_other_ member of the press _ever_ was briefed by General
>Ramey concerning the Roswell Event (other than his brief radio
>announcement later that night) or was _ever_ -- for 51 years! --
>allowed to view, examine, touch or photograph the alleged
>Roswell "Flying Saucer". I know. I was that
>reporter/photographer.

>James Bond Johnson

Well, this isn't quite right. According to Major Jesse Marcel,
Colonel Thomas DuBose and Warrant Officer Irving Newton, other
reporters did interview Ramey and question the staff in person
about the debris. First, we have the photograph taken of Irving
Newton which is not one of those now claimed by Johnson. Second,
we have statements by all three suggesting they met with the
press. DuBose said there were four or five reporters present.
Newton said that he entered a room with a number of people
including reporters. Marcel said that he was not allowed to talk
to the reporters in the room.

So, while it is clear that Johnson met with Ramey alone, other
reporters had the opportunity as well. Johnson certainly can't
tell us what happened in Ramey's office after he left, but those
who were there can, and each of them, who has spoken about it
has suggested there were a number of reporters present. The
photograph of Newton, taken later in the day, after Ramey's
office had been cleaned (the hat and tie on the radiator have
been removed) suggests a second meeting with reporters.

If Johnson was the _only_ reporter to interview Ramey about
this, then he must account for the photograph that he didn't
take, and the statements of the men who were there the whole
time, and not just briefly about 4:30 or 5:00.

KRandle





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                              UFO Landing Cases

From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:30:12 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:00:03 -0400
Subject: UFO Landing Cases

Dear colleagues,

Despite me taking a back seat for a while in this subject due to
family commitments, I still have a few projects to see through
to completion. One of these is a study of UFO LANDING reports
from around the world.

I would therefore appreciate, once again, your assistance in
obtaining data on UGFO LANDING reports from anywhere in the
world.

If you can help I would appreciate it if you could contact me
direct at the following:


Philip Mantle,
1 Woodhall Drive,
Batley, West Yorkshire,
England, WF17
7SW.

E-mail: el51@dial.pipex.com

Please feel free to forward this e-mail onto your colleagues and
thanks once again for your kind assistance.


Yours Sincerely,


Philip Mantle.
British UFO Research Association.







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                       New Aircraft Coming In 2 Weeks

From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:20:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:43:14 -0400
Subject: New Aircraft Coming In 2 Weeks


Hi List,

I talked with one of my customers today who is with the FAA. He
said that in two weeks, they are having a briefing from Lockheed
on a new aircraft that is rolling out. Its an air ship that can
carry a payload of over 2 Million pounds. (That's what he
said....) Its huge.

The purpose of it is to let's say pick up cargo at Samsung in
Korea, fly a distribution center of the customer in the U.S.,
drop off cargo, go onto the next stop. This will elminate the
need for many ground personnel, rail and container
transportation, fuel, etc. All the costs of delivery goods. It
is supposed to be efficient in fuel and needs little manpower
for flight.

These are all the details I could obtain. Its name is unknown.
I'm not sure whether it will be a news release in two weeks.
Stay tuned.

Kathleen Andersen
MUFON State Section Director
Seattle





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               C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story

From: Anatoly Kutovoy <kutovoj@MAIL.IAE.LT>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:59:57 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:20:28 -0400
Subject: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story


The Devil's Grave. Almost Fantastic Story.

By Nikolay Subbotin,
Director RUFORS (Russian UFO Research Station),

and

Emil Bachurin,
Pioneer of Perm's Abnormal Zone, Veteran UFO Researcher

April, 1998

A military helicopter made a wide cautious circle above canyon
and slowly, turning to the right side, went down. Breaking low
cumulus by blades the machine lowered all below and below,
trying to find the flat place on snowbound stones. A
three-colours camouflage did it well discernible in this
black-and-white world.

A pilot set right a headphone and turned back to passengers.
Major in frontier-guard form noded and waved by hand: 'Here!'
His companion which buried nose in a porthole, torn off a look
from the ground, pulled out a creasy paper from a pocket,
verified something with a map and too noded.

In morning mist the canyon began been seemed. From unexpectancy
the pilot swung the helicopter: on flat as if  like asphalted
platform an object laid. The GIGANTIC "DIRIGIBLE" was more than
half-kilometer of a length splitted by powerful explosion into
almost equal two parts.

Major look at the companions: "Is it?", the person with note in
a hand noded again: "Yes! This is our UFO!.."

*   *   *

I did not see Emil almost two months and his visit to me at home
on the beginning of May was absolutely unexpectedness. Almost
from a doorstep he dazed me by the new: "Nikolay, I have visited
a place of UFO's accident!" More than  detective history
foregoing of this expedition deserves a  special large article.
Nevertheless, Emil was possible getting the AF helicopter for
some hours and to see about that he heretofore only had heard
from G. G. Svechkov, Director of Kazakh Branch of SAKKUFON .

"Photographes? Where are photos?!" I cried. Emil only
woebegonely did fling arms up: "Failed, all films haveare
completely lighted." This amazing effect, bringing in delight
UFO's sceptics, is well known to ufologists, but it is not
easier: again there are no the proofs, only Emil's sketch, on
which he hastily has outlined an appearance of the device and
these strange burns on his hands...

I switch on a dictophone:

*   *   *

August 28, 1991, at 04:42 (local time). The radar station of
tracking on a peninsula Mangyshlak has flashed a very large
object which appeared "from no quarter" almost in centre of
screens.  Under the flash an object had a length of 600 meters
and diameter about 110 meters.

The object went some to northwestern of station, above the
Caspian Sea, from west on east in an echelon of 6600 meters at
evenly cruise speed of 9600 kms/hours. It did not answer on IFF
(Identification - Friend or Foe) requests . Experienced
operators have suspected at once, that deal with _?_ (not
identified radar target, i.e. probably with UFO).

After four minutes, at 04:46, all of them have requested
cosmodrome Kapustin Yar whether the unscheduled  special start
of something is made there. From Kapustin Yar at once have
answered: "No, but our radar too observes this object."

As it is necessary this information operatively has arrived in a
Caspian Staff of antiaircraft zone and to object there were
directed a crew by two fighters MIG-29 which was in patrol
flight to the south of Shevchenko town and one still crew by two
patrol MIGs was lifted from aerodrome K.

The battle task was put to the pilots : to identify the object,
if it is obviously technogenic  - to land it at spare aerodrome
in K., and in case of disobedience to open fire on a defeat and
to destroy. The settlement point of interception was chose a
western coast of the Aral Sea.

The meeting was held at exactly  calculated time, 05:12. The
pilots observed the object visually and on screens of radars, on
a new series of identification "Friend or Foe" requests and on
the command to fall down and to go behind a  leading fighter the
object did not react in any way.

It looked as a huge dirigible balloon without any outstanding
details dimly shining from the sun, the surface, not covered by
the sun, looked as grey stainless steel. In a head part from
each board of the object two round "portholies" was settled down
at diameter in 1/6 height.

The object did not undertake of any hostile actions. A commander
of group has requested a staff and has offered to go by two
fighters on each side of the object as it is possible closer, to
give precautionary shoots from guns parallelly  to its course
and to clutch thus, to begin it to go down. The plan was
approved and at 05:14 one crew has carried out this  manoeuvre
going to the object at 800 meters from two sides. From such
distance both pilots had time to sight some green symbols in a
tail part of the vessel.

Interception's operations of "Dirigible" was finished very
quickly. All fighters experienced failure of complete fire
control panel at attempt to open shoot,  whilst approach to the
object at distance of 600-500 meters the engines' faults begun,
all devices have begun striked. The object itself , making a few
short zigzag manoeuvries in horizon and vertical, begun rush
moving to increase speed up to 32, then 54 and 68000 kms/ hours
for 2-3 minutes. The data of radar definitions of several
stations of tracking (Baikonur, Alma-Ata, Bishkek etc.)
coincide.

The  chasing was stopped since the object continued to go in a
general direction at east with small decrease to height of 4500
meters, through airzone of Alma-Ata town. The dispatchers have
transferred the warning to all boards civilian  aviation and AF
about danger of collision with a huge UFO, but it did not
happen.

At 05:27 the object has disappeared from a view of all radars'
sight at height 4400 in area of Isyk-Kul lake.

However thereupon the common UFOlogy history was not finished.
On end of September, 1991, in board of SAKKUFON (Bishkek town)
the information leaked in, that in mountains, to the east of
Przhevalsk town (nowadays Karakol) a large UFO has crashed. Our
colleagues operatively organized a investigating group and it
has gone off into region of the accident, at source of Sary
Dzhaz River, to Shaitan Mazar (Devil's Grave). Readers, pay
attention to this name! This coincidence is unlikely casual!
This district  long before has used very bad glory among local
inhabitants.

The first investigating group spent more than 15 days in
mountains, but could not go to the place of crash, though was
completed by enough experienced  searchers, including climbers.
In mountains there have passed heavy earlier snowfalls, to make
the way in this area through a last pass it was not possible and
trying to pass at the Sary Dzhaz valley the group has not going
through snowslipdanger sites. On October 21 they returned in
Bishkek, some persons had small traumas and chilblains.
SAKKUFON's Director M. S. Eltsin leaded the group.

Simultaneously in SAKKUFON and in its Kazakh branch the closed
officially information has arrived, that attempted to removal
and transportation of the object from this region a AF transport
helicopter was crashed, there were human victims.

SAKKUFON's members begun carefully to prepare widescale
expedition, which was begun in June, 1992. In expedition there
were three groups, which should vary in two weeks after work in
mountains. The participants knew about large danger of a
presence in immediate proximity from the object, all of them had
got a special training and instructing, have given a
subscription that they (each) work absolutely voluntary. All
participants had good physical and moral-psyhological
preparation, owned skills of mountain climbing, were by experts
in various fields of knowledge, have passed psi-teh testings of
compatibility, adequacy to reaction in extraextremal situations
etc. The expedition was equipped by devices, photo  cinema and
videoequipment, had good climbing outfit.

The G. G. Svechkov, Director of SAKKUFON's Kazakh branch and
Retired Major, leaded the expedition. The first group arrived to
the place on 06.12.1992. Have begun from breakdown of base camp
on an flat site in 2,5 kms N-N-W from the crash's place at
northern slope edge, closing the base from a point of UFO's
influence.

Already first reconnaissance around this edge has given very
much. The object was "on the place", is obviously in the
emergency condition, been broken off in twain, on a ratherly
flat site back from other side of the unnamed edge. Most
powerful shocking object's action was defined at once. At
distance of 800 meters and closly a feeling of fear captured,
then and depression, lethargy, weariness, the hair was risen up,
though electrometers fixed an insignificant "surpluses" of
static electricity. Magnetometers and all other magnetic devices
were even more strange acting.

A path from the base camp overlooks on mountain range at 1500 =EC
from the object, from this point it was well seen and from here
began to have an effect of its shock influence. Already first
attempts to take an azimuth guidance from this point on object
has given a variety of gaugings by different designing
compasses. Two precision theodolites were taken with the purpose
to define object's sizes by a fixing method, but also this
invention was worthless. So only devices happened in direct
visibility on object on a edge's crest or on its southern flank
with distance of 1500, 1200, 800 =EC, their magnetic arrows
instantly took up a position "along object", showing the
direction "north - south", though the true setup of object was
"west - east". It was too for most compasses' arrows of all
types opposite to object (at same distance). Also it was strange
that the arrows took these directions saltatory, without
continued swingings.

Magnetometers were acting even more strange. In a output point
of the waypath at mountain range (base "=C0" point of sightings)
they began to show an almost total missing of magnetic intensity
with very weak value of a vertical component (10-12 %) from
background value vertical component of object's "visibility" and
from that value in region  of expedition's camp (base "B" point
of sightings).

The gradual magnetometric shooting analysis revealed a form and
character of anomaly created by the object. On distance of
800-820 =EC from it the magnetic field completely was absent!
There were neither horizontal nor vertical components. Even rock
samples selected on distance of 800-600-400 =EC from the object
(nobody closer to it did not go,  such was the agreement of
members) were absolutely demagnetized there.

The question what causes this demagnetizing effect remains
opened, but doubtless, that it requests to spend enormous
quantity of energy. In earthly conditions to demagnetize
completely such rocks as diorit, gabbro, ???? pyroxene,
containing a plenty of magnetic minerals, including magnetite,
are not obviously possible. The form of "antimagnetic" anomaly
created by object is accurate ellipse by length of 2230 =EC and
width of (through centre of object) 1700 m. A southern part of
the ellipse is opened, since in 400 =EC from it to the south there
is a precipice gone in a rivulet valley.

A heavily chronal anomaly was fixed too in first work day of
expedition, which contours are also ellipse, but sizes it are
more and even passing through mountain edge to northern flank
opposite to object, i.e. are covering out of pales of its
visibility. The time lag of mechanical chronometers began to be
marked in zone of radius 2-2,2 kms and  frequency decrease of
quartz generators.

All the electronic clocks, which had visited in direct
visibility of UFO at distance 1,5-1,2 kms, failed (reset to "0")
and did not restore outside of the zone of influence. The
indications' jitters by various chronometers in
thermostatically controlled boxes averaged from minus 34 min 20
sec up to 41 min 44,3 sec for all day. A set with six mechanical
clocks in similar package gave a time lag spread from a minus 20
hours 13 min 45 sec to 21 hours 01 min 20 sec for all day.
Thermostats with clocks and chronometers was set on distance
approximately 450 m to the object .

The second group of researchers after one week repeated this
experiment on others set of clocks and chronometers of  exactly
same brands in a same point, prolonging time of experiment to 5
days with daily measurements. The comparable results for the
first day was received, then a time log's decrease of all clocks
and chronometers was observed, but with some "cumulative" effect
expressing in a time lag's growth only 10-15 % per day from
value of time log for first day of experiment. This result does
not conflict with a sightings' data on others chronal anomalies
formed by UFOs: Belomorie, Podrezkovo, Zone =CC (Molebka),
Khodyzhensk.

Attempts to get measurements by a couple "quartz generator and
frequency counter" put in failure all  mountings in a zone of
direct visibility of object (distance 800-850 m). A power supply
was set over edge of a mountain, all wirings was carefully
checked up, installations was calibrated and  thermostaticed on
the place. All was made under the instruction. But as soon as a
power was switched on, the generator in the zone burned down
momentary, and frequency counter in a point of sightings "jumped
out" a scale's minimum of oscillations and also failed. I shall
bring a detailed description of object's appearance little bit
below, from own data (04.20.98), what concerns the reasons of
accident so my opinion ties up with opinion of participants of
the expedition on 1992.

The object on large speed has touched by a bottom part of
fuselage for a ledge of rocky breeds at 1700 m from the presence
site. Then it already slided on a quite flat, almost horizontal
platform, but this still is strong rocky breeds. The blowup,
resulted to share into two almost equal parts, has taken place
most likely after its stop or in its moment.

The explosion was inside a central part of the vessel, that a
character of damages was witnessed. The hull plating and
longitudinal carrying details of frames of "Dirigible" are
literally turned out, between fragments of the vessel a
superficial funnel is distinctly visible and on its edges the
quite large pieces of rocky breeds are thrown out, as via
blowup of a " overhead" charge.

Dints and cracks on body in fore part of the ship are got via
impact with outstanding almost 20 m a flat platform of pyroxenit
above, in which a round deepening  is now seen of width more
than 20 m and height at centre of 4,5 m. Behind this point (20 m
to east) the pathway of a sliding track begins of width more
than 40 m on rocky surface.

The cracks in the left board of stern fuselage part, located
vertically at height approximately 1/3 heights of the
Dirigible's body, are possible got via impact (punching of a
rock), but it is possible, that they could be formed and by
blowup of the vessel.

But most strange is the symbols of green colour located on a
tail part of the object and a rings of dark colour, surrounding
a stern. Probably rings is a part of engine. Decks and bearing
structures are distinctly visible in breach. Whether the landing
as "like a aircraft" was planned by a crew or was it be some
program of board navigator computer? This  question may be
Mystery  forever.



August, 1998


Almost three months we raised an additional information, look up
a money for the expedition, even ordered satellite photographs
of Shaitan Mazar site. The most unbelievable hypotheses were
suggested - from an accident of a dirigible with a nuclear
engine before an unsuccessful scientific module's start of new
international orbital station.

We pack up our knapsacks and an equipment. The way will
unnearby, from Moscow by Boeng-747 in Almaty, further in
Bishkek, Przhevalsk (Karakol) and, at last, Devil's Grave
(Shaitan Mazar). The meeting with Mystery waits ahead.

*   *   *

You can find a detailed videointerview with Emil Bachurin and
all illustrations at web-site: "UFO: Conspiracy" in Internet
http://cdl.bmstu.ru/~rf/ in a chapter "Video" (in russian)

Also there you can find a videospeech of Colonel, which leaded
Division of UFO investigations in Strategic Forces (in russian).

Sincerely,

Anatoly K.






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   Sep > Sep 10

                           London (UK) UFO Meeting

From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:06:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:10:29 -0400
Subject: London (UK) UFO Meeting


Friday September 18th 1998

LONDON UFO STUDIES PRESENT "AN EVENING LECTURE
WITH MATTHEW WILLIAMS"


Venue: United Reform Church Hall, Upney Lane, Barking. Essex

Admission: (Pay at the door) Adults =A34.00 Members/Senior
Citizens & children =A32.00

Time: Doors open 7.30pm. Ends 11.00pm

Refreshments available

All queries should be made to:

Roy Lake
10a Tudor Road
Barking
Essex
IG11 9RX

Phone: 0191 270 9919

E-Mail: xxi05@dial.pipex.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D

Thanks,


John Hayes

jhayes@cableinet.co.uk
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com
UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/
Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/







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   Sep > Sep 10

                 Not A UFO, But New Pulsating Safety Lights

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>=20
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:36:01 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:04:34 -0400
Subject: Not A UFO, But New Pulsating Safety Lights


Source: The Dallas Morning News

http://www.dallasnews.com/metro-dfw-nf/dfw43.htm

Stig

*******

Southwest Airlines says it's ahead with a flash

Carrier thinks pulsating safety lights will go national; others
in industry watching

09/10/98

By J. Lynn Lunsford / The Dallas Morning News

***

No, it's not a UFO. Or a loose bulb.

Those pulsating lights in the sky are just jetliners with
attitude.

Dallas-based Southwest Airlines is leading what is expected to
be a national trend in airline safety: flashing landing lights
on jets.

It's a matter of being seen, airline officials say.

"If you look at a steady light when you are searching the sky,
it won't get your attention as quickly as a pulsating light,"
said Greg Crum, Southwest's chief pilot.

The lights - two on each wing - alternate from bright to dim
every three seconds while a jet is maneuvering in busy traffic
areas. They can be set to burn constantly just before landing.

Southwest officials think the illusion of movement created by
the new lights will make their jets stand out in the
constellation of flying machines that fill the skies around busy
cities.

"We think it will be a safety benefit," Mr. Crum said.

It costs about $1,000 to modify each airplane. So far, Southwest
has completed the installation on three of its Boeing 737s. The
airline expects to have the system on its entire fleet of 285
jets by mid-1999, Mr. Crum said.

Chicago-based United Airlines has put the system on three of its
737s but wants to evaluate it before outfitting all of its 577
jets.

For now, other carriers, including Fort Worth-based American
Airlines, say they will watch Southwest.

"You remember the cereal advertisement where they say, 'Let
Mikey try it?' " Mr. Crum said. "Well, we're Mikey."

The attention-getting power of flashing lights has been known
for decades. That's why they are atop police cars and tall
structures.

Airplanes already twinkle with strobe lights on their fuselages
and wingtips, but none are as powerful as the blindingly bright
headlights used for landing.

For added safety - even during the day - pilots of jetliners and
smaller private airplanes regularly turn on their landing lights
while flying near busy traffic areas.

"It's a big sky, and the other aircraft takes up only a
minuscule part of it," said Warren Morning=0Fstar, a spokesman for
the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association, which represents
private aircraft owners.

Mr. Morningstar said that "it doesn't matter what size of
airplane it is - if it has pulsating landing lights, it's easier
to see. That's why they have been on smaller planes for years."

Federal air traffic officials say the pulsating lights probably
will be of more benefit to other pilots than to air traffic
controllers, who typically rely on radar to monitor flights.

"For those airports where there is a mix of smaller airplanes
and large airplanes, it would enhance the ability to point out
other aircraft," said Larry Viselli, air traffic operations
manager for the Federal Aviation Administration's southwest
region.

From a pilot's perspective, the new pulsating lights are a
simple safety benefit.

"You just flip on a switch, and they are on," said Southwest
Capt. Tom Moudy, who recently flew one of the newly equipped
planes from Dallas Love Field to Houston.

"From a safety standpoint, anything we can do to enhance the
ability to be seen, it gives us an easier feeling, especially at
low altitudes," he said.

*Discuss this story in the Dallas Area forum
*Send a letter to the Editor about this story

=A9 1998 The Dallas Morning News





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   Sep > Sep 10

                        Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:24:21 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:48:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs


>From: RobIrving <RobIrving@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:36:58 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

>>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:19:00 +0100
>>Subject: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

>Asgeir,

>> ...I wonder whether there were
>> significantly many more crop circle formations in March 1989,
>> e.g. in Canada? Maybe in England?

>I doubt it. You might find the occasional circle in oilseed rape
>(or Canola) at that time of year (in England), but the majority
>appear much later with cereal crops. The same goes for Canada.

>> A vortex-like energy also seems to appear within these
>> formations, and "Considerable evidence shows that crop circles
>> have been known throughout Earth's history."

>So where is this evidence? The earliest record of anything like
>a crop circle is a pamphlet dated 1678, describing a feud
>between a farmer and workers which resulted in his crop being
>cut. It was more likely a case of theft than any vortex-like
>energy and hardly 'considerable evidence' of an historical
>precedent.

>Rob


Rob,

Agreed.  There may be earlier descriptions, but the first
"crop circle" I know about is the one I saw in the mid 60s.

This was not in a cultivated crop, but in a natural marshy
area, and the reeds were bent but not broken in a perfectly
circular pattern about 30 feet in diameter.

The people who found it associated it with a UFO landing
the night before, but no one actually saw a UFO during their
unusual experience, just a very bright light like a spotlight
which shined in their windows.  Their dogs also were completely
terrifed by whatever it was outside.

I've been asked, but simply don't recall other details like
whether the swirling was deosil or widdershins.

Bob







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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 98 09:48:38 PDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:07:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:13:02 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re:

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>Date: Wed, 09 Sep 98 11:49:12 PDT

><snip>

>>As for the canard about Marcel's not mentioning bodies: Why
>>should he? If Randle is correct, the bodies were recovered at
>>another site from the one Marcel examined. C'mon, Dennis.

>It's not a canard, Jerry, it's a straightforward observation and
>question to which I've yet to see a reasonable or even
>semi-plausible explanation.

Yes, Dennis, I am afraid it remains a canard.


>So let me try one more time to see if I get this straight:

>Not only was Marcel not sent to the first site, where bodies
>were recovered, but he was never even informed of it, right?

As why should he have been?. C'mon, Dennis.. Randle and Schmitt
(right or wrong) make a plausible case for two crash sites, at
one of which -- and the one kept more secret than the first --
bodies were found.. Marcel, to repeat, was not involved in this
other-site recovery.

As we have discussed privately, Dennis, all sorts of
ambiguities, contradictions, and unanswered questions are likely
to hover over the Roswell events because nobody conducted an
investigation at the time of its occurrence. When the
investigation began three decades later, people were dead, or
their memories were getting foggy.. The only hope for the truth,
whatever it may be, is if one day whoever possesses the official
documents decides to release them. Their nonappearance after all
this time is, at the very least, curious to all but, it seems,
Air Force apologists.

It may as well note here the curious silence on the part of the
anti-Roswell crowd concerning Roswell adjutant Patrick
Saunders's statement, made to many friends and family members in
writing before his death, that Randle and Schmitt's account of
what happened is essentially correct.. I guess you guys are just
waiting to find your voice, and I have no doubt that soon you'll
be telling us he's just another of the liars whose good name --
like that of Jesse Marcel, Sr. -- awaits the inevitable
trashing. Speaking personally, though, I'd be more inclined to
take his word on it than yours, Martin Cannon's, or my own.


>And it has nothing to do with apologizing for the Air Force, and
>you know that as well. Why don't you call me an apologist for
>the GAO, too, while you're at it?

I'll take your word for it that you're not an AF apologist, though
your weird defense of its use of bogus testimony in defense
of its dubious theories would cause any reasonable observer
to wonder.

>The only thing I'm apologetic for is trying to make sense of the
>hopelessly muddled Roswell scenario put out by Randle and
>others.

And the AF theories are a model of clarity, rationality, solid
evidence, and good sense?. Give us all a break.

Cheers,

Jerry Clark







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                            Re: An Honorable Man

From: Scott Caput <scaput@shadow.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:52:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:21:37 -0400
Subject: Re: An Honorable Man


>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:18:42 -0800
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Pamela Stonebrooke <galactic_diva@telis.org>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: An Honorable Man

>>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: An Honorable Man
>>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:59:37 -0500

>>>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:57:48 -0500
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>>Subject: An Honorable Man

>>>Hi All,

>>>I have used this forum to 'bitch' about the media and how it
>>>usually uses and abuses abductees and UFO witnesses. Well, I
>>>just want to make _as_much_noise_ about someone who is the
>>>exception to the rule; Jeff Rense. Just as we should criticize
>>>them when they get it wrong, we should reward those who 'get it
>>>right!'

>>Just to add my .02--Jeff Rense is one of the few balanced and
>>impartial media voices dealing with the kind of phenomena we
>>discuss on this list. I'm not at all surprised that he went to
>>the lengths he did to correct the problem you mentioned.

>>We need more people like Jeff in the media. Count me in on the
>>choir, preacher!

>>Brian

>I'm singing too. I had the opportunity to do a show with Jeff
>and my respect for him is beyond words. My experiences are
>beyond the pale for most and he never once sensationalized.  He
>demonstrated nothing but compassion, sensitivity and respect. He
>is unique...we are fortunate to have him in the field and on the
>"waves". A man of integrity with a true sense of humanity...
>rare...I know that many are extremely grateful for his
>contribution.

>Pamela

I would also like to cheer Jeff Rense. I wish his show was
available to me here in Miami though. I have only been able to
hear it on the internet.

Scott R. Caput

The brain is by far the most complexly organized piece of matter
we know. It is enormously more complicated in structure than a
star is, for instance, which is why astronomers know so much
about stars, and psychologists know so little about brains.

                       Isaac Asimov







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                         Re: Brown Mountain Lights?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:24:50 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:52:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Brown Mountain Lights?


>Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 20:15:15 -0400
>From: Doc Landry <landryp1@home.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Brown Mountain Lights....request

>Hello everyone:

>I was wondering if anyone else had a different version of these
>events, or a different story relating to the lights on Brown
>Mountain. Below is all the info I could find. I am working on a
>research paper and would appreciate any info you may have.
>Please send your replies to me personally as not to interfere
>with the list.

>Thank you all for you patience and time;-)

>Doc

>                             Brown Mountain Lights

>Brown Mountain in North Carolina at the end of the Blue Ridge
>Mountain chain, is as we all know famous for it's enigmatic
>nocturnal lights.

>In May 1977, ORION (the Oak Ridge Isochronous Observation
>Network) placed a 500,000 candlepower arc light in Lenoir, which
>is 22 miles east of Brown Mountain. At the same time, a group of
>observers gathered on an overlook on Route 181, which is 3.5
>miles west of Brown Mountain, a favorite spot for watching for
>the Brown Mountain lights. An experiment showed that when the
>arc light was switched on, the observers saw an orange-red orb
>hovering several degrees above the crest of Brown Mountain.
>Final conclusion; the majority of the so-called Brown Mountain
>lights, particularly those seen above the crest, are refractions
>of artificial lights.

>The real Brown Mountain lights, the mysterious ones, are those
>that flit through the trees well below the crest.These lights
>are extremely rare. Various observers descriptions are that they
>commence as a brilliant blue-white or yellow light, which tapers
>off to a dull red before disappearing, all in 2 to 10 seconds.
>Horizontal motion is often only a degree or so, although some
>older reports have the lights wandering greater distances at
>speeds faster than a human could manage in the difficult
>terrain.

>In an experiment to determine whether the "true" Brown Mountain
>lights might be seismic in origin, ORION detonated small charges
>on Brown Mountain in July 1981. No artificially stimulated
>lights were recorded. The lights seen on Brown Mountain are
>according to my research the subject of a family legend. At any
>rate here goes.

>Brown Mountain was named after a plantation family who owned
>slaves. During the Civil War, one man was a colonel in the
>Confederate Army. He was wounded, and came home in 1863 or
>thereabouts. One day he went up the mountain and did not return.
>After a few days, they sent the man's personal servant after
>him. The servant's name was Jim. He took only a little food,
>some water, and two lanterns. He had grown up on the mountain,
>and did not expect to look for long. Brown Mountain is not a big
>place.

>The servant also never returned. No trace of Jim or his master
>was ever found, and no one knows what happened to them, to this
>day. Shortly after they disappeared two bobbing lights started
>to appear on the mountain. The legend has it that these lights
>are the lanterns Jim took with him and that he is still looking
>for his lost master .Another version says that the lights are Jim
>and his master, each carrying a lantern, trying to find their
>way back to the home  which is no longer there.

>I don't know how accurate any of this is  but it was all I could
>find on the Brown Mountain lights.


I live about an hour away from Brown Mountain.  It is a beautiful
area and well worth a visit for the scenery alone, as well as
Linville Falls, an excellent waterfall.

I've parked several nights at the supposed best place to see the
lights but have never seen anything. I don't doubt that they
exist, but as you noted they are rare. I also don't think that
they are reflections of manmade lights.

There is an old song about the lights. The refrain goes:

"High on the mountain, and down in the valley below,
It shines like the crown of an angel,
And fades as the mists come and go,
Way over yonder, night after night until dawn,
A faithful old slave, come back from the grave, is searching
for his master who is long, long gone........."

The late folklorist Manly Wade Wellman of Chapel Hill, NC,
collected information about this and many other North Carolina
legends. Some of them he fictionalized in his book 'Who Fears
the Devil', a collection of short stories, most of which had
appeared in the old pulp Weird Tales magazine.

Bob







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               Re: Brookhaven National Labs Alien Crash Site?

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:42:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:44:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Brookhaven National Labs Alien Crash Site?


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:20:24 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Brookhaven National Labs Alien Crash Site?

>Does anyone on this list have

>1) Any information regarding an alledged crash of an alien craft
>at Brookhaven Labs?

The only ones who ever "alleged" anything were John Ford and two
of his cronies from LIUFON. I have seen John's 'video evidence'
for this UFO 'crash' and it just night footage of; 'something'
burning, a couple of overweight, out of shape white guys
skulking around in the dark near a fence, and a bunch of
sequences that were shot at night with no discernible detail in
any of them.


>2) Have knowledge of reports which may be researched of such an
>incident?

If LIUFON (Long Island UFO Network) still exists, they would be
the only ones to have "reports" of the "crash." (Which I think
is total BS to begin with.) Anyone who listened to John 'do his
thing' knows that according to him UFOs were falling out of the
skies over Long Island with -comedic- regularity. The only
'evidence' he ever provided was on videotape. (I already told
you about that.)

>3) Have knowledge of the whereabouts of possible witnesses?

Apparently John was the only one who had that kind of inside
dope. He's currently residing at State Mental Institution
located at Mid-Hudson.

>Any information would be appreciated... pro or con.

All of mine is -con.- Because that's what I think John was doing
in reference to these UFO crashes. Conning the public. If there
was really something to those cases -someone- would have
continued the investigation even if only to tickle some
moola-boola out of it.

We all know what a powerful 'aphrodisiac' moola-boola ($) can be
for some folks! <EG>

>Thank you in advance.

You're welcome in retrospect. <G>

Peace,

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
________________________________________________





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               Re: Brookhaven National Labs Alien Crash Site?

From: Scott Caput <scaput@shadow.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:43:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:15:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Brookhaven National Labs Alien Crash Site?


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:20:24 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Brookhaven National Labs Alien Crash Site?

>Does anyone on this list have

>1) Any information regarding an alledged crash of an alien craft
>at Brookhaven Labs?

>2) Have knowledge of reports which may be researched of such an
>incident?

>3) Have knowledge of the whereabouts of possible witnesses?

>Any information would be appreciated... pro or con.

>Thank you in advance.

>Jim


Well Jim, 3 words... Restore John Ford!

You might want to talk to Alfred Lehmberg, he's on the List.

Scott


--
Scott R. Caput

The brain is by far the most complexly organized piece of matter
we know. It is enormously more complicated in structure than a
star is, for instance, which is why astronomers know so much
about stars, and psychologists know so little about brains.

                       Isaac Asimov







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                        Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

From: David Baker <davbak@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:51:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:57:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs


>From: RobIrving <RobIrving@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:36:58 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

>>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:19:00 +0100
>>Subject: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

>So where is this evidence? The earliest record of anything like
>a crop circle is a pamphlet dated 1678, describing a feud
>between a farmer and workers which resulted in his crop being
>cut. It was more likely a case of theft than any vortex-like
>energy and hardly 'considerable evidence' of an historical
>precedent.

>Rob


Rob and everyone,

Isn't there a woodcut depicting a 'crop circle', with a devil or
demon armed with a scythe, dating back a few hundred years? I've
seen it as part of crop-circle researcher Mark Heywood's
lecture, but can't remember much else about it.


Dave Baker - Yorkshire UFO Society






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   Sep > Sep 10

                  Pamela Stonebrooke & Forgotten Questions

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:51:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:07:29 -0400
Subject: Pamela Stonebrooke & Forgotten Questions

>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:18:42 -0800
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Pamela Stonebrooke <galactic_diva@telis.org>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: An Honorable Man

>>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: An Honorable Man
>>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:59:37 -0500

>>>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:57:48 -0500
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>>Subject: An Honorable Man

>>>Hi All,

>>>I have used this forum to 'bitch' about the media and how it
>>>usually uses and abuses abductees and UFO witnesses. Well, I
>>>just want to make _as_much_noise_ about someone who is the
>>>exception to the rule; Jeff Rense. Just as we should criticize
>>>them when they get it wrong, we should reward those who 'get it
>>>right!'

>>Just to add my .02--Jeff Rense is one of the few balanced and
>>impartial media voices dealing with the kind of phenomena we
>>discuss on this list. I'm not at all surprised that he went to
>>the lengths he did to correct the problem you mentioned.

>>We need more people like Jeff in the media. Count me in on the
>>choir, preacher!

>>Brian

=========================================================

Pamela Stonebrooke responds:

>I'm singing too. I had the opportunity to do a show with Jeff
>and my respect for him is beyond words. My experiences are
>beyond the pale for most and he never once sensationalized.

==========================================================

Hello Pamela,

I see that you are responding to my post about Jeff Rense.

Great.

I guess it was a good oportunity to plug your appearance. How
come you never responded to any of the questions that myself and
some of the members of AIC (abductees) put to you on this list
several months ago? I (we) were more than a bit surprised by the
way you completely ignored our inquiries.

No matter. No one is _required_ to answer anyone on this list or
any other. I just found your silence more revealing than maybe
even your responses would have been.

I'd just like to make one more comment on the way out. Jeff
didn't have to 'sensationalize' your case, you've already taken
care of that. I and others have busted our asses for a lot of
years trying to bring some sanity and sobriety to this subject
in hopes of _finally_ getting us all a serious investigation.
What are you all about? Other than promoting yourself and your
book, what are you doing to advance the pawn another square?

Let's talk turkey. Publishers are business men. The only reason
they 'bid' for the rights to your book, (something I'd never
heard of before you) is because they see dollar signs! They are
going to exploit the hell out of the sexual/sensationalistic
aspects of your encounters. In the public arena that
'sensationalism' is going to hurt us and set us back. That's why
you've been getting the kind of 'attention' from me that you
have been. Nothing personal, just business. Only this 'business'
involves real human lives. It's not about fame and fortune for
me. It's a deadly serious and urgent blood sport. There's more
at stake here than most are ever willing to acknowledge. The
implications are too frightening and disempowering. Nonetheless,
some of us plod on working _directly_ with the people involved
and trying to _raise_the_public's_awareness_. Highlighting your
sensational story will mislead many into thinking that your case
is somehow the 'norm' of what abductees in general experience.
We both know how very far from the truth that really is, don't
we?

Don't bother to respond to this post either Pamela. My questions
to you are only rhetorical anyway. Any further posts from you
will get the same attention and response that our honest
inquiries got from you. Nada, zippo, zero.

What goes around, comes around.

Or, as Ralph Kramden once said to Ed Norton, "Be careful how you
treat people on the way up the ladder, because you're going to
have to pass those same people on the way down!"

Catch you again on your way back! <LOL>

Peace,

John Velez, Webmaster: IF-AIC

________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
________________________________________________





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 10

                              Re: Aztec 'Crash'

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:12:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:50:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Aztec 'Crash'


>Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 12:28:21 +0200
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@torino.alpcom.it>
>Subject: Re: Aztec 'Crash' [was: Forgotten Secret Soviet 'Files'?]

Eduardo, thank you for your comments on Gariazzo, who was a
person unknown to me.

<snip>

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Forgotten Secret Soviet 'Files'?
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>What is reported here by an Italian investigator is what Carr
>>stated publicly over 20 years ago, and few serious ufologists
>>paid attention because it has long been known that there is
>>no evidence of an Aztec crash.

>Er! I won't call Mario Gariazzo an "Italian investigator"...

Since I didn't know who he was I was being kind, nice - a
gentleman.

>>This Italian movie producer who claims to have seen a frozen
>>body "in Dayton, Ohio" will certainly have to explain how he
>>managed to get inside a military base and into what must be a
>>highly secret installation on the base..... and prove it.

>He needs not to! His goal is to sell his product. Period.

Yup!





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   Sep > Sep 10

                       Re: Roswell and 'Alien Rapture'

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:03:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:29:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell and 'Alien Rapture'


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:44:59 EDT
>Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:12:01 -0400
>Subject: Re: Roswell and 'Alien Rapture'

>>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:56:46 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture' -- A "Press" Response

<snip>

>>_No_other_ member of the press _ever_ was briefed by General
>>Ramey concerning the Roswell Event (other than his brief radio
>>announcement later that night) or was _ever_ -- for 51 years! --
>>allowed to view, examine, touch or photograph the alleged
>>Roswell "Flying Saucer". I know. I was that
>>reporter/photographer.

>>James Bond Johnson

>Well, this isn't quite right. According to Major Jesse Marcel,
>Colonel Thomas DuBose and Warrant Officer Irving Newton, other
>reporters did interview Ramey and question the staff in person
>about the debris. First, we have the photograph taken of Irving
>Newton which is not one of those now claimed by Johnson. Second,
>we have statements by all three suggesting they met with the
>press. DuBose said there were four or five reporters present.
>Newton said that he entered a room with a number of people
>including reporters. Marcel said that he was not allowed to talk
>to the reporters in the room.

>So, while it is clear that Johnson met with Ramey alone, other
>reporters had the opportunity as well. Johnson certainly can't
>tell us what happened in Ramey's office after he left, but those
>who were there can, and each of them, who has spoken about it
>has suggested there were a number of reporters present. The
>photograph of Newton, taken later in the day, after Ramey's
>office had been cleaned (the hat and tie on the radiator have
>been removed) suggests a second meeting with reporters.

>If Johnson was the _only_ reporter to interview Ramey about
>this, then he must account for the photograph that he didn't
>take, and the statements of the men who were there the whole
>time, and not just briefly about 4:30 or 5:00.

>KRandle

Kevin Randle has tried for many YEARS to conjure up a "press
conference" in General Ramey's office on July 8, 1947, and has
insisted on describing such as being fact in his writings
regarding the Roswell Event. I have discussed this with him over
a period of several hours on at least five occasions when he has
phoned me. Where is there ANY evidence of any OTHER media
representatives being present in General Ramey's office that
day? I have asked that question for nearly ten years and Randle
has yet to provide a scintilla of EVIDENCE of ANY press
conference. Let us examine the evidence (as opposed to rumor)
and, hopefully, now put this fable to rest finally.

First of all, "press conferences" -- as we know them today --
had not yet been born! During the five years that I was a full
time reporter/photographer for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram --
1943-1947 -- I do not recall EVER covering ANY event where there
was more than ONE reporter or ONE photographer present. It was
quite different in those days.

My paper, the Morning Fort Worth Star-Telegram had no
competition in its market so there would have been no occasion
for any competition to be present. There was during those years
NO TV station and the radio stations did not have "spot news"
assignment reporters working in the field. There were no
facilities for "remote" live broadcasts and the only portable
recorders were poor quality wire recorders -- which I never saw
used by any of the Fort Worth area stations. The wire services
relied on their member newspapers to provide both news coverage
and photo coverage so I never saw anyone in the field
specifically from a wire service.

Since just by fate I apparently arrived at Ramey's office before
he did and he obviously had not had an opportunity to view the
Roswell debris since it all had not yet been unwrapped prior to
my arrival (see at least two packages lying on the floor STILL
not unwrapped in all the seven fotos taken that day) that
certainly seems to rule out any determination to that point as
to the true nature of the debris. Until Ramey had had an
opportunity to examine the debris -- and then to have his
"hunches" later confirmed by weather officer Newton -- he would
not have been in any position to make any statement that this
was NOT a "flying saucer" as had been previously announced
officially earlier in the day by the AAF. Even generals did not
claim clairvoyant powers in those days! If it had been
determined in Roswell as to the "true identity" of what Marcel
et al. "captured", certainly COL Blanchard as group commander
could have made the "correction" announcement there just as he
made the initial announcement. There would then have been NO
photo opportunity in Fort Worth and Ramey would have had no need
to get into that loop!

Ramey chose to go on the radio live to make his "weather device"
announcement rather than to hold any kind of "press conference."
He physically traveled across town to the studios of station
WBAP (which the Star-Telegram also owned) about an hour after I
left his offices to make the announcement around 6 p.m.

So, as I have asked Kevin Randle since 1981, where is there ANY
byline story of ANY reporter or ANY photo credit of ANY
photographer who ever attended a Roswell "press conference"
ANYWHERE? Or the name of ANY reporter or photographer who
claimed to have attended such a press conference? Where are
these phantoms?

Because Kevin Randle has remained SO CONVINCED that there did
exist such a press conference -- even in the complete absence of
any scintilla of evidence -- I have in recent years tried to
investigate this point carefully. I went to the Star-Telegram
morgue just last December and carefully went through all the
files of all the editions during early July of 1947. I now KNOW
-- and have photo copies of -- the articles and photos the
Star-Telegram published in EACH edition during those days re
Roswell and UFO reports. Randle never has told me that he also
has thoroughly researched this point. He seems to continue to
rely on conjecture or fable.

I have read many of the Roswell accounts and I never have seen
any other photo of the alleged Roswell debris other than the six
photos I took of General Ramey, COL Dubose and Major Marcel ..
and the single photo of Irving Newton. Just recently I talked
with retired Major Irving Newton and specifically asked him if
he recalls the circumstances of his being photographed in
General Ramey's office. Unfortunately, he says that he has no
recall as to who photographed him or if in fact there were any
civilian reporters present in General Ramey's office. (There may
have been some AAF PIO types there.) He says his best
recollection is of Major Marcel following him around the office
trying to show him the symbols on some of the pieces of wreckage
and trying to convince him that this stuff was from "out of this
world." This is consistent with the sworn statement Newton made
which is included in the 1995 official Air Force report
regarding the "Roswell Incident." The interviews of Dubose and
Marcel compelled them to rely on dimming 40+-year-old memory.
There is evidence that they, too, may have had flawed recall
also. That can be a real impediment to true research.

I have not seen any theories advanced re who took the
"mysterious" photo of Newton other than this probably was an AAF
PIO photographer called in to take a picture to back up the
quote from Newton validating Ramey's "weather device"
announcement. Incidentally, the Star-Telegram never ran the
Newton photo and I have never seen it published in any newspaper
of that time.

Finally, if anyone knows the etiology of the Newton photo or
where the negative might be located -- or where a good
enlargement might be obtained that can be studied, I certainly
would appreciate receiving this information. The RPIT (Roswell
Photo Interpretation Team) very much would like to have access
to a good copy of the Newton photo for its close and thorough
study.

James Bond Johnson






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   Sep > Sep 11

                       Re: Michael Wolf's Credentials?

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:12:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 05:34:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Michael Wolf's Credentials?


>From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:01:19 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Conferences and Credentials


>Can anyone or Dr. Michael Wolf tell me what the following title
>and credentials are about?

>Michael Wolf, MD, PhD, ScD, JD
>National Security Council Advisory to NSC's MJ-12
>(UFO Security) Subcommittee

>I am very curious if anyone can explain this to me.

It seems that he has done everything, has been everywhere and
knows everything.

Besides the list of degrees given above, indicating that he is a
Ph. D (I think in physics), a medical doctor (I think a surgeon)
and a lawyer (doctor of law, JD), I seem to recall that he also
claims to have been an Air Force officer and to have been in th
Viet Nam War.

Perhaps someone stored the list of Wolf's credentials and could
post them again so we can all judge the credibility of this
person!






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   Sep > Sep 11

                     Re: New Aircraft Coming In 2 Weeks

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:06:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 06:17:27 -0400
Subject: Re: New Aircraft Coming In 2 Weeks


>From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:20:41 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: New Aircraft Coming In 2 Weeks

>Hi List,

>I talked with one of my customers today who is with the FAA. He
>said that in two weeks, they are having a briefing from Lockheed
>on a new aircraft that is rolling out. Its an air ship that can
>carry a payload of over 2 Million pounds. (That's what he

>The purpose of it is to let's say pick up cargo at Samsung in
>Korea, fly a distribution center of the customer in the U.S.,
>drop off cargo, go onto the next stop. This will elminate the
>need for many ground personnel, rail and container
>transportation, fuel, etc. All the costs of delivery goods. It
>is supposed to be efficient in fuel and needs little manpower
>for flight.

>These are all the details I could obtain. Its name is unknown.
>I'm not sure whether it will be a news release in two weeks.
>Stay tuned.

>Kathleen Andersen
>MUFON State Section Director
>Seattle

Hi, List,

I haven't read any thing about this development and I read quite
an assortment of aviation and trade mags.

If this is a real thing, I'll bet Aviation Week will have an
article soon!

This would have to be an awfully large ship to lift 2 million
lbs., especially using Helium, which is about 15% less efficent
than Hydrogen as I recall.

It would have to be rigid hull, as I again due to the
efficiency: (gas bags are notroriously draggy: ie Howard Stern,
Rush Limbaugh) It would have to be an all metal hull as even
high-tech fabric over a Zepplin type frame would be prohibtive.

_If_ it exsists I would have to say don't be surprised that it
is a huge triangular shaped "Areon (airplane/airship)" maybe
this is a defence spinoff.....hmm?

gtmccoy

    "half of any thing anybody ever tells you
       is a lie, it's up to you to to find out which
       half." - Anon





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 11

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:39:28 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 06:22:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:08:52 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>Dennis and list -

>I usually avoid these arguments because they normally lead
>nowhere. However, there are a couple of comments that I think
>need to be made.


Kevin,

Thanks for weighing in. Jorge Luis Borges put it this way:
"There is no intellectual exercise that is not ultimately
pointless." But there is evidence that Borges, in his roundabout
way, made the statement that he did precisely to initiate such
an exercise. Arguments such as these turn up all sorts of arcana
that one might not have been aware of otherwise. See below for
an example.

><snip>

>>For that matter, Blanchard never mentioned bodies, either. Why
>>not? Having already spilled the beans about the recovery of a
>>flying disc (which his press release apparently referred to as
>>"relatively intact," why omit the bodies?

>No one spoke to Blanchard about this. We don't know what he
>might have known or didn't know. The reason to omit the bodies
>was because that takes the discussion to another level.

We know that if bodies were recovered at a crash site prior to
the Brazel site that Blanchard would most certainly have known
about same, indeed, he would had to have initiated their
recovery.

>>(Brief aside: Most Roswell hotbloods fail to address the strange
>>circumstances surrounding the original Blanchard press release.
>>One, why did Blanchard release it in the first place, presumably
>>without having first secured higher approval?

>(Brief aside: Blanchard was under no obligation to appeal to
>higher authority to make a press release. He was authorized, as
>commanding officer of the 509th Bomb Group to make press
>releases. This is a moot point.

Under no obligation? What do you mean by obligation? Do you
think he could have issued a press release declaring that we
were now effectively at war with the Soviet Union without
consulting higher ups (no one knew where the debris came from or
what it implied), simply because he had the authority to issue
press releases? Of course not. Either he thought this matter was
tremendously, earthshakingly important (in which case he would
have arguably sought approval) or he didn't.

>> Two, how did he
>>manage to get it so wrong? He would have interviewed Blanchard
>>and Marcel and seen the shredded debris for himself, yet his
>>press release says "the flying object _landed_ [my
>>emphasis]...[and] the rancher _stored the disc_ [my
>>emphasis]...Action was immeditely taken and the disc was picked
>>up at the rancher's home." Given that it obviously didn't land
>>and was in a jillion pieces, how did it get assumed that
>>whatever it was was disc-shaped? Was Blanchard winging it? And
>>if Marcel was such an infallible Intelligence Officer, why did
>>he stop by home to show it to his family before first reporting
>>to Blanchard, aurely a blatant violation of security
>>procedures?)

>(Brief point NO. 2 - If he got it so wrong, maybe it was because
>this was a cover story and not the truth. Colonel DuBose said
>this was a cover story and he was there too.)

DuBose was in Fort Worth. He said the weather balloon was a
cover story. He never said the original press release about the
recovery of a "landed" disc was a cover story, which is what you
imply here. Without the initial press release, no balloon cover
story is needed or required.

>It could be said (this is speculation) that the press release
>was issue to draw attention AWAY from Roswell. Marcel, it was
>noted was on an airplane to Fort Worth. The rancher wasn't named
>in that article and wasn't on the ranch on July 8 anyway. Could
>it be that the press release was made with consultation with
>higher authority and was designed to divert attention?

So Blanchard consulted with higher authorities or he didn't? And
then they agreed that the best way to divert attention _away_
from Roswell was to issue an arguably unnecessary press release
datelined Roswell? Kevin, you've got to start making sense.

>>Remember that in the Randle/Schmitt Roswell scenario, the bodies
>>are recovered _before_ Brazel ever comes into town. Why wouldn't
>>Marcel, as the base intelligence officer, have been sent out on
>>_that_ recovery? Or, if he was being kept out of the loop then
>>-- for some unfathomable reason -- why would he have been sent
>>out on the second recovery (at the Foster ranch)? Similarly, if
>>bodies were recovered at a second site _after_ Marcel retrieved
>>the debris from the Foster ranch, again, as base IO, why would
>>he be kept out of the loop then?

>>Simply put, such a scenario makes no sense.

>Simply put, I am tired of those who were not intelligence
>officers, or military officers for that matter, commenting on
>this based on what they believe rather than on what the
>situation demands.

So you're saying that since I wasn't in the military and wasn't
an intelligence officer that I can't comment on the books you've
published about this case?

>In other words, if Marcel was not physically present on the base
>on July 4 and 5 when the bodies were recovered, he might not
>have been briefed on it.

But he's sent out to a second crash recovery site with no
briefing about what to expect? Most people probably weren't
present on the base on a July Fourth weekend. Wouldn't it have
made sense, however, to call Marcel, as the head of his
department? Wouldn't he at least have been notified that
something of potentially monumental importance was afoot? Do you
seriously think that his deputy officer wouldn't have informed
him of events in his absence?

I did grow up in an Air Force family (at Carswell AFB, of all
places) and I can assure you that when something untoward
happened which involved my father's unit, he was woken up by a
telephone call, no matter what the time of day or night, or
whether or not it was a holiday or a weekend. And he was a
"lowly" master sergeant. I cannot for the life of me believe
that Marcel's deputy would have failed to inform his superior
officer, Marcel, of any crash retrieval involving alien bodies.
That would make the deputy in charge of the flow of information,
effectively bypassing Marcel altogether. An
aburdity, and you know it.

>When, on July 6, Brazel appeared with a box of debris, Marcel,
>because he was on duty, was sent to check on it. This could be
>accomplished without his being told that there had been bodies
>recovered. To keep a secret, the best way is to limit the number
>of people involved in keeping it. There was no need to tell
>Marcel about the bodies, he had no need to know about them, and
>he could complete his task without knowing of them.

Kevin, this is so totally absurd on your part that, to
paraphrase Jerry Clark, I can't believe you said it. The base IO
is kept out of the loop? Wouldn't it have been his _job_ to
decide where any loop began or ended? This is so ludicrous as to
be unbelievable. How could you operate the 509th and cut your
own IO out of the loop? Who needed to know if not Marcel?

You're grasping, Kevin. You've got the base on alert, a building
painter witnessing a live alien being led into a building,
another stumbling into a hangar where the autopsied bodies were
stored, a low level politician being shown the bodies, the
civilian fire department at the recovery scene -- AND MARCEL,
THE INTELLIGENCE OFFICER, WASN'T TOLD ABOUT IT BECAUSE HE DIDN'T
HAVE A NEED TO KNOW? This is wholly and totally absurd.

<snip>

>But this isn't really the end. All we know is that Marcel didn't
>say a word about bodies... Or did he. According to Nelson
>Marcel, quoted in THE COURIER of February 25, 1996, Jesse told
>him that he had seen "one of several pygmy alien bodies that
>were recovered from the wreckage."

>On the other side of the coin, however, is Jesse, Jr. I asked
>him, specifically, about bodies. He said that his father had
>never mentioned them. It seems more likely to me (remember here
>that I am now speculating) that Jesse Sr. would have told his
>son about bodies had there been any.

>But the point is, according to a Marcel relative, Jesse, Sr. did
>mention bodies.

I agree. If Marcel Sr. had actually seen bodies, then he
probably would have told his son, Interviewed numerous times, he
was no doubt asked on almost every occasion whether he knew
anything about bodies. Why would he repeatedly say no when such
a claim would have seriously reinforced his other assertions
about the otherworldy nature of the Brazel debris? But he
supposedly told Nelson Marcel, and no one else, ever, about
"pygmy bodies." In ordinary historical circumstances, people
would agree that Marcel knew nothing about any alien bodies. If
asked, they would cast doubt on Nelson Marcel's singular
assertion to the contrary. But history is turned upside down
when it comes to Roswell. And it becomes politically incorrect
to call into question anything any of the Marcels have ever
said.

But I was there at the 50th anniversary celebration in Roswell
(and so were you, Kevin) and saw Marcel Jr. put his stamp of
approval on the so-called Derrell Sims Roswell specimen. Sad,
wasn't it?

>Excuse me. It is unlikely the Air Force would call the witnesses
>deluded or self-serving because of procedural rules. We have a
>whole list of cases in which the Air Force did exactly that. All
>we have to do is look at official explanations for UFO sightings
>and we see a list of cases in which the Air Force suggests that
>the sighters are deluded, hoaxers, known liars and the like. If
>it suited their purposes, they certainly would have attacked
>from that point of view.

Kevin, welcome to the 1990s, the Age of Litigation. Times ain't
like they used to be. No way that the AF, or anyone else, could
issue a report in the mid-90s saying that we think that
Ragsdale, Anderson and Dennis are unadulterated, unmitigated,
confabulators. Just not the way things are done these days.

<snip>

>Here, I have to agree with Dennis. We can demonstrate that both
>Ragsdale and Anderson altered their tales, included new details
>as they learned about them, and were, as suggested, making it up
>as they went along.Glenn  Dennis, however, might fall into the
>same catagory. We have not been able to find a hint of his
>nurse, even after he gave us the "real" name in confidence. When
>we, and I need to mention Vic Golubic here, failed to find any
>evidence that she ever existed, Glenn Dennis changed the name.
>That suggests he was making it up as he went along.

Glad to see that we agree on something. The question now is how
long is Kaufmann (another body claimer) going to be able to hold
on to his credibility before you let him go, too?

Roswell is a morass of conflicting claims, the overwhelming
majority of which remain unsubstantiated. Unfortunately, it is
assumed by many to underpin much of contemporary ufology, what
with its unproven assertions of crashed saucers and retrieved
alien bodies (i.e., greys, ergo abductions), not to mention its
influence on notions of a government cover up.

>>By the same token, and since it can hardly harm my reputation
>>further, I suspect that if Dennis's failure to deliver his
>>infamous nurse is any indication, his remarks about being
>>threatened with death are probably highly suspect, as well.

>I would have to agree with this as well.

>KRandle

Again, glad to see that we agree on something. At least one
Roswell proponent routinely cites Dennis's claims as proof
positive of Nazi SS-like behavior on the part of the government.

Dennis







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 11

                 Many Witnesses See Large Cylinder In Brazil

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 02:20:52 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:17:53 -0400
Subject: Many Witnesses See Large Cylinder In Brazil


Received from the UASR list
September 11 at 01.16 local Danish time.

Stig

To: <UASR@MyList.net>
Subject: [UASR]> Brazilians in UASR


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[U A S R]> UFO's-, ALIEN's-, SPACE- RESEARCH   MAILING LIST <[U A S R]
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Posted by: "A. J. Gevaerd" <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>

Hello all:

[specially Wagner Fischer, Marcelo Lemmi & Lydia Ribeiro]

Nice to see more and more Brazilians in this list. As a team, we
can certainly help to get some of our best UFO information
posted in here, since we have such an enormous abundance of
cases happening all over Brazil almost everyday.

Speaking about information, I have just received [at the UFO
Magazine's office] fresh information of a massive sighting of a
huge object by the sunset in several cities in the states of
Mato Grosso and Rondonia. Many different sources reported seeing
a large cylinder-shape object for over than 5 minutes, with no
traces of wings, engines, windows or whatever. No noise heard.

A business man from Rondonopolis, who is also a pilot, called us
and reported that the object was surrounded by several others --
5 or 6--, smaller and flying faster around the cylinder, like if
it was a mother-ship. Newsmen from Porto Velho [capital of
Rondonia] reported seeing only the cylinder. The two cities are
apart from each other by at least 1,000 miles. Other reports
have also arrived at the Magazine's office. I shaw have a better
picture of the whole scene by tomorrow.

Take care folks!

A. J. Gevaerd editor, Brazilian UFO Magazine gevaerd@ufo.com.br


Posted by : "A. J. Gevaerd" <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 11

                  Earth Life May Have Originated On Mars...

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:47:06 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:07:07 -0400
Subject: Earth Life May Have Originated On Mars...


Source: New Scientist September 12

http://www.newscientist.com:80/ns/980912/survivors.html

Stig

*******

Survivors from Mars


Illustration: Chris Draper

=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9=A9

Battered by meteorites, the early Earth was no place for life to
take hold. But our most primitive ancestors could have found
refuge on the planet next door, argues Paul Davies

***

ONE DAY,  the Earth will probably be hit by an asteroid or comet
large enough to wipe out most living creatures. It is not likely
to be soon--but such events do happen. The comet that reputedly
killed off the dinosaurs and many other species 65 million years
ago left a crater 180 kilometres in diameter and plunged the
whole world into years of cold and darkness.

But even events of this magnitude pale into insignificance
compared to the ones that happened back when the Earth was newly
formed. Until about 3=B78 billion years ago, vast hunks of
rock--many measuring 100 kilometres or more across--frequently
crashed into the planet, typically at speeds of around 30
kilometres per second. The effects of such a collision would be
truly awesome. It would excavate a crater larger than the
British Isles. The blast would strip away most of the
atmosphere, replacing it with vaporised rock from the impacting
object. This incandescent material would swathe the planet,
creating a global furnace with a temperature of 3000 =95C. In the
intense heat the oceans would boil away, and the exposed land
would be thoroughly sterilised. A lethal pulse of heat would
travel as much as a kilometre into the ground.

The Earth would be a pretty inhospitable place for life after
such a cataclysm. Yet, paradoxically, scientists are beginning
to suspect that the life forms from which we are descended
survived just such conditions. Fossil microbes are known that
date back 3=B76 billion years, while hints of life have been found
in rocks as old as 3=B785 billion years.

This has led to some fascinating speculation. These organisms
might have survived the cataclysms by cowering deep within the
Earth. Or they might have been thrown into space inside
fragments of rock, where they could safely wait for an
opportunity to put down roots again. And once in space, they
could even have found refuge on another planet, and then
returned to Earth cocooned in more rocks. Stranger still, this
could all just as easily have happened to Mars: and if it did,
all living things on the Earth's surface may have come
originally from the planet next door.

Everybody agrees that the sort of life now found on Earth could
not have originated without two basic raw materials: liquid
water and a supply of organic substances--carbon-based molecules
that typically include hydrogen, oxygen and perhaps nitrogen. So
the first question is: where did these raw materials come from?
The answer, many now believe, is that they probably did not
originate on Earth.

Astronomers have built up a blow-by-blow account of how the
Solar System formed. First, a collapsing cloud of hydrogen
turned into a glowing blob--the proto-Sun--surrounded by a
swirling disc of gas and dust. From this, the planets condensed.
Substances that can survive high temperatures without
melting--iron, silicon and the like--solidified relatively close
to the Sun and clumped together to make the innermost planets
Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars. More volatile substances such as
water and hydrocarbons condensed much farther out. There, sticky
snowflakes snowballed to form the cores of the gas giants,
including Jupiter and Saturn, plus numerous minor icy bodies
laced with organic molecules that remained free to wander the
frigid outer Solar System. Some of these dirty snowballs were
flung out by Jupiter's gravitational field to form the Oort
Cloud of comets. Others remained lurking beyond Neptune's orbit,
where they make up the Kuiper Belt.

During this initial period of aggregation, collisions between
partly formed planets and hurtling debris were common. At some
point a Mars-sized body smashed into the Earth, stripping away
its mantle before ploughing on to become the Earth's core. The
material thrown out by the crash eventually came together to
form the Moon. This cataclysmic encounter would have baked the
Earth bone dry and driven off any trace of organic substances
that might have survived the fierce heat of the solar nebula.

While all this was happening, about 4=B75 billion years ago, the
Earth was scarcely a congenial place for life. And the violence
didn't stop then. Over the following 700 million years,
gravitational perturbations from the newly formed giant planets
disturbed many of the large comets and asteroids that were
milling around the periphery of the Solar System, and sent some
of them plunging our way. Most of these interlopers fell into
the Sun, broke up or were flung back out again. But many smashed
into the planets.

>From the point of view of the prospects of life on a planet, a
collision with a comet has both pros and cons. Comets are packed
full of ice and life-encouraging organic substances. On the
other hand, the impact itself releases a huge amount of energy,
which may blast this material--or anything similar already on
the planet--into space, thinning the atmosphere and depleting
the oceans. In the words of the late Carl Sagan, "Comets giveth
and comets taketh away."

Whether a planet is a net winner or loser in these encounters
depends on circumstances. As a rule, the bigger the planet the
more likely it is to gain rather than lose material. Thus
Mercury and our Moon, which bear conspicuous scars of this early
bombardment on their cratered surfaces, lost out badly. With the
exception of tiny amounts of ice located near the permanently
shadowed poles, both these bodies have been left with virtually
no atmosphere or water.

Mars was a borderline case. It did acquire moderate amounts of
water, and it once had a thick atmosphere too, but its gravity
was not strong enough to hold onto it, and the Red Planet is now
an arid desert.

Earth did well out of the bombardment, and emerged with
plentiful water and air. It has been estimated by Chris Chyba,
now at the University of Arizona, that enough comets hit the
Earth to supply the world's oceans many times over. Our planet
also received a veneer of organic substances. Exactly which
chemical process transformed a mixture of lifeless substances
into the first living thing has yet to be established. But it is
clear that neither liquid water nor a supply of organic
molecules--the two key ingredients--existed on the newly formed
Earth. So the biosphere must have been constructed, at least in
part, from the raw material that comets and asteroids brought to
Earth more than 4 billion years ago.

The craters on the Moon suggest that the cosmic barrage was
especially intense between 4 and 3=B78 billion years ago, after
which it gradually abated as the Solar System was swept clean of
debris. Towards the end of this period there must have been many
huge impacts, and at first sight this would seem to rule out any
possibility of life.

Recently, however, some dramatic discoveries have put a new spin
on the subject. For one thing, we now know that life on Earth is
not restricted to the planet's surface. Microorganisms have been
discovered dwelling happily several kilometres under the ground,
existing on a diet of minerals and gases (see "The
intra-terrestrials", New Scientist, 28 March, p 28). Similarly,
the dark ocean floor is home to many exotic microbial species,
and the international Ocean Drilling Program has discovered that
the submarine biosphere extends deep into the rock of the seabed
itself. Evidently the Earth's crust is teeming with tiny life
forms.

This gives a clue to how life on the early Earth could have
endured repeated impacts from space debris. Organisms for which
the comfort zone extended into the hot crust by a kilometre or
more could have survived a major impact event, so long as they
were well away from ground zero. In effect, the deep strata
could have provided shelters against the ferocious bombardment,
as long as the organisms could tolerate the naturally high
temperatures. Many of today's deep-living microbes would have
managed this feat with ease. They thrive near volcanic vents, or
in geothermal rocks, in some cases enduring temperatures well
above the normal boiling point of water.


Tree of life


Microbiologists have been studying these "hyperthermophiles" in
the hope that they will cast light on Earth's earliest life
forms. One of the key tools is gene and protein sequencing,
which can help determine the evolutionary distances between
different species. By comparing sequence data from many
organisms, biologists have reconstructed a plausible tree of
life, showing which species branched from which. The technique
was pioneered by Carl Woese of the University of Illinois twenty
years ago, and over the past few years Karl Stetter of the
University of Regensburg and Susan Barns and Norman Pace, both
at Indiana University, have applied it to hyperthermophiles with
amazing success. It turns out that all the oldest and deepest
branches of the tree of life are occupied by heat-loving
superbugs. In effect, they are living fossils, having remained
largely unchanged for billions of years.

Some scientists now believe that the earliest organisms on Earth
were deep-living hyperthermophiles, and that we and the rest of
surface life are later adaptations. At first sight it appears
difficult to see how life could begin in solid rock, which
severely restricts the movement of the different chemicals that
would have to be brought together. But it is possible that
fissures or pores in the rock could have acted as tiny crucibles
that concentrated the necessary substances. Life might have
started deep in the hot crust of the planet, and ventured up
only when it was safe to do so. If this is right, life didn't so
much crawl out of the slime as ascend from Hades.


Underground colonies


Unfortunately the evolutionary record cannot yet confirm this.
It is possible that the Earth's first life forms started out on
the surface and then colonised the torrid subterranean zone.
Come the next big impact, only the microbes that had evolved to
live hot and deep survived.

A variant of this idea was proposed a decade ago by Kevin Maher
and David Stevenson of Caltech, and elaborated by Norman Sleep
of Stanford University and his co-workers. Suppose, as many
scientists maintain, that life emerged rapidly from lifeless
chemicals once physical conditions were suitable. There were
probably gaps of a few million years between really big impacts,
during which time life could have got under way, only to be
zapped when the next large asteroid plunged home. The early
history of life on Earth might then have been an extended series
of false starts, as sterilising impacts destroyed successive
attempts by primitive organisms to establish themselves. Life as
we know it would then be descended from the first microbial
colony that just managed to survive the bombardment.

If this theory is right, we may yet find fossilised traces of
these earlier organisms. As they would be completely unrelated
to life on Earth today, they would, by most definitions,
constitute an alien form of life. It is even possible that an
isolated colony of these "alien" superbugs survived, and is
still lurking in an unexplored niche somewhere, awaiting the
prospector's drill.

But there is another even more intriguing possibility. The early
bombardment of Earth would have displaced prodigious quantities
of rocks into space. So rather than surviving underground, could
microorganisms have escaped destruction by going into space? Jay
Melosh of the University of Arizona has shown that several per
cent of the ejected material produced by a large impact may be
flung into orbit without the rocks being severely heated or
shocked. Since we know that Earth rocks provide a congenial home
for life, it appears inevitable that some viable microbes will
have been sent into space.

Ensconced cosily within an orbiting chunk of rock, shielded from
radiation, and freeze-dried by the vacuum of space, a microbial
spore could survive virtually indefinitely (see "Superbug
survival"). And some of the material thrown into Earth orbit
would eventually fall back to Earth--not all of it burning up on
re-entry. So the planet may have been recolonised from space
once the aftermath of a sterilising impact subsided.


Earthly messenger


It is only a simple extension of this scenario to imagine that a
rock from Earth harbouring live organisms might travel to one of
our neighbours in the Solar System. During the heavy bombardment
there was no lack of cosmic encounters that packed enough punch
to achieve this. Transport of such microbes to Mars might have
been particularly significant. Although the surface of Mars is
too harsh for life today, things were very different in the
past. The Mars Global Surveyor, now orbiting the Red Planet, has
revealed a landscape deeply etched with dried-up river valleys
and embellished by extinct volcanoes. It seems that about 3=B76
billion years ago, Mars was warm and wet--not unlike Earth. Life
existed on Earth before this time, so terrestrial microbes could
have reached Mars when conditions there were quite congenial.
This, I believe, makes it virtually certain that there was once
life on Mars.

And if Earth organisms colonised Mars, why not the other way
round, as well? Indeed, as a cradle for primeval life, Mars
offers some distinct advantages over Earth. Being smaller, it
suffered fewer impacts. It also cooled more quickly, enabling
any hyperthermophiles to burrow deeper and so be better
protected from the effects of the bombardment. Mars's lower
gravity would have helped too, by reducing the speed of impacts.
And the lower escape velocity means that material can be kicked
into space by a less violent blast, giving microbes a better
chance of survival in the ejected rocks. Most importantly, the
surface of Mars may have been hospitable to life more than 4
billion years ago, when our own planet was still a barren
cauldron.

Meteorites originating from Mars have been found on Earth, so if
life did get going on Mars first, it becomes a distinct
possibility that it was transferred to Earth inside such a
meteorite. Computer simulations published two years ago by Bret
Gladman of Cornell University and his collaborators suggest that
7=B75 per cent of Mars ejecta eventually reaches Earth, a third of
it within ten million years. This is easily a short enough time
for a microbial spore to remain viable; on Earth, some spores
have been preserved in salt and amber for much longer.


The last Martians


The theory that Earth was seeded with Martian microorganisms
would explain why life established itself here so early, in the
most marginal of circumstances. A steady supply of fecund
Martian debris raining down on Earth throughout the bombardment
period would have given Martian bugs a good opportunity to
colonise Earth as soon as conditions permitted.

Of course, we can also imagine that life started independently
on both planets. In this case, any incoming Martian microbes
would have found themselves in competition with Earth life.
Would one form have destroyed the other, or might they have been
similar enough to join forces in a kind of interplanetary
symbiosis? Another possibility is that they found separate
ecological niches, and continued on a path of peaceful
coexistence and parallel evolution. Who knows, exotic Martian
microbes may still be lying undetected all around us.

Mars ceased to be a good abode for life when surface conditions
there began to deteriorate about 3=B76 billion years ago.
Volcanism slowed, the atmosphere leaked away, oceans and lakes
either evaporated or froze, and the planet turned into the
hostile desiccated wasteland that we see today. It seems
increasingly likely that Mars is now a totally dead world. So,
it would be an ironic twist if life on Earth did originate on
Mars. You and I, and all the other life forms we share this
planet with could actually be the last Martians.


Paul Davies is a physicist and writer living in Adelaide. His
new book The Fifth Miracle: the search for theorigin of life
will be published next week by Penguin


Superbug survival


THE amazing resilience of some microbes has earned them the tag
superbugs or extremophiles. Their survival feats include being
able to withstand temperatures ranging from near absolute zero
to 120 =95C or possibly higher, from near vacuum conditions to
pressures of hundreds of atmospheres, accelerations of 10 000g,
immersion in saturated brine and in acid strong enough to
dissolve metal. Some bacteria even thrive in the waste pools of
nuclear reactors and swallow plutonium without ill effects.

Others can hibernate almost indefinitely by forming spores: they
shrivel up and surround themselves with a thick wall, and their
metabolism slows almost to a halt. From this state of suspended
animation they can be revived if water and nutrients eventually
become available. Nobody knows if there is a limit to how long
bacterial spores can survive, but when freeze-dried at ultra-low
temperatures it could be many millions of years.

The main hazard to microbes is radiation, especially
ultraviolet. Once an organism's DNA is irreparably fractured, it
is effectively dead. Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe of
Cardiff University in Wales, long-standing supporters of the
theory that microbes can journey through space, have stressed
the remarkable radiation resistance of some bacteria.
Experiments suggest that a few species of microorganism can stay
alive for a time even when completely unshielded from the
harshness of outer space. For example, Peter Weber and Mayo
Greenberg of the University of Leiden cooled bacterial spores to
within 10 =95C of absolute zero and shone an intense ultraviolet
beam on them to mimic the effects of 2500 years in interstellar
space. Even then, one in a thousand of the organisms survived.

Given such toughness, some micro-organisms have every chance of
surviving an interplanetary journey, especially if they lie
protected within rocks thrown into space by an impacting comet
or asteroid. A thin covering of rock is enough to block
ultraviolet rays: a metre would shield most cosmic radiation. An
asteroid of the sort that may have killed off the dinosaurs
might kick a billion one-tonne rock fragments into solar orbit,
providing ample opportunity for live microbes to hitch a ride
from Earth to Mars, or vice versa. The temperature within
ejected material travelling between Mars and Earth is typically
-50 =95C, which is perfect for preservation.


From New Scientist, 12 September 1998

=A9 Copyright New Scientist, RBI Limited 1998







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 11

              ... Or On A Dust Grain In Icy Interstellar Space

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 02:00:34 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:08:02 -0400
Subject: ... Or On A Dust Grain In Icy Interstellar Space


Source: New Scientist September 12

http://www.newscientist.com/usa/bayarea/stuffoflife.html

Links are preceded by asterisks.

Stig

*******

Stuff of life

Photography: John Millar

=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=
=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95=95

When astronomers re-created outer
space here on Earth they were amazed to
find some of the key ingredients of life,
and even cell-like bubbles.

Gretel Schueller reports

***

In the near vacuum of interstellar space, temperatures hover
just above absolute zero, where even the wobbling of atoms
grinds to a halt. Dotting this empty, frigid world are huge
globs of gas and dust grains, so numerous they block out nearly
all light. And outside the shelter of these interstellar clouds,
bombarding cosmic and ultraviolet rays slash most molecules to
shreds.

Millions of light years away, under the sunshine and palm trees
of Mountain View, California, in a lab tucked away in the
grounds of NASA's Ames Research Center, Lou Allamandola and his
colleagues have been recreating that world of extremes. And in
doing so, they have uncovered tantalising hints that life may
have emerged not from some warm primordial slime on Earth, but
on a dust grain in the icy heart of space.

It's long been suspected that comets made the Earth habitable by
delivering water and gases, and that they perhaps even provided
some of the simpler chemical building blocks of life. But what
the NASA Ames team has found goes far beyond that. When they
recreate the harsh conditions of space in their lab, not only do
they generate astonishingly complex organic compounds similar to
those vital for life on Earth today, but also curious cell-like
structures that may have housed our planet's earliest life
forms.

The origin of these intriguing findings is coincidentally enough
also the birthplace of stars and planets. With 10 000 atoms per
cubic centimetre, interstellar clouds of gas and dust are
sufficiently dense that individual blobs within them collapse
under their own gravity, forming stars and, eventually, swirling
systems of planets. (While this density is crushing by space
standards, the air on Earth is about 25 000 trillion times
thicker.) In space, the density of these clouds also offers
another advantage that may have helped generate life on Earth.
Like people in a crowded dance club, molecules of gases, such as
methane, carbon monoxide, water vapour and ammonia, are
continuously banging and bumping into dust "seedlings"--grains
of silicate the size of smoke particles that have been ejected
from old stars.

While most astronomers have concentrated on the gases,
Allamandola has always had his eyes on the grains. Just as water
vapour molecules rising from bubbling soup will hit a cold
kitchen window on a frosty night, stick and freeze, says
Allamandola, the same thing happens on the silicate seedlings.
When gas molecules smash into the cold grains they stick,
creating an icy skin of frozen gases. Infrared telescopes first
detected the gas particles and silicate grains in the 1970s. But
no detection device was, or is to this day, powerful enough to
see how they interact in space. So Allamandola, who trained as a
cryogenics chemist, and physicist Mayo Greenberg of Leiden
University in the Netherlands, set out to do what most people
thought impossible: build bits of interstellar space here on
Earth.

Nowadays, a deafening buzz permeates Allamandola's lab. It's the
sound of cryocoolers--high-powered refrigerators--keeping the
simulated interstellar clouds at a cool 10 degrees above
absolute zero. The "clouds" are actually vacuum-sealed chambers
the size of shoe boxes. A gaseous mixture of water, methane,
ammonia and carbon monoxide flows through a metal tube into each
chamber, freezing onto what in the lab counts as a dust grain--a
few square centimetres of aluminium or caesium iodide. As the
molecules pile up and freeze, a thin white layer of ice forms.

And since grains in space receive occasional doses of
ultraviolet light from stars, the simulated grain and its
accumulated chemicals are also bathed in ultraviolet radiation.
Each hour of radiation in the lab is reckoned to equal what a
grain in space would receive in a thousand years, a mere blip in
the Universe's 15-billion-year history. But that's enough to get
the action started. As soon as those rays hit the molecules on
the grain, they start breaking chemical bonds, producing highly
reactive radicals such as =B7OH and =B7NH2. The icy temperatures
provide the ideal mixer. Frozen to the spot, the radicals are
forced to rejoin with their neighbours in ways that would never
occur if they were still part of a gas free to fly off and join
more suitable partners. The result is a profusion of complex,
organic compounds.

The work, however, is a little like cooking with a recipe that
doesn't tell you what the dish will be. Allamandola and his
colleagues know what they start out with--simple, water-soluble
gases--but analysing the chemically complex end result is
trickier. Their latest chamber is fitted with both a mass
spectrometer and an infrared spectrometer which together give a
rough idea of the type of molecules that form on the simulated
dust grain. So far, the NASA Ames team has found a slew of
alcohols, ketones, aldehydes, alkanes, a giant molecule called
hexamethylenetetramine or HMT, and other organic molecules, some
with as many as 40 carbon bonds. But apart from that broadbrush
description, Allamandola and his team have yet to put names on
most of the chemicals they have created in this simulation of an
interstellar cloud.

When biologist David Deamer of the University of California in
Santa Cruz heard what was going on at the astrochemistry lab at
Ames, he was soon knocking at Allamandola's door. Deamer had
been studying the Murchison meteorite, which landed in Australia
in 1969 and has since kept numerous researchers busy identifying
its rich array of organic molecules. Deamer had found something
intriguing deep within the loose sandstone-like rock: hundreds
of microscopic globules. Grinding the stone into powder and
flushing it with a solvent to rinse out organic molecules
revealed what looked like tiny two-layered vesicles swimming in
the liquid. When he published his findings in Nature in 1985
(vol 317, p 792) it caused a considerable fuss, not least
because no one had any idea what these vesicles were, nor what
sort of chemistry created them, and where.

Deamer suspected that clues to his "fossil" vesicles lay in the
residue in Allamandola's space chambers. After all, the
Murchison meteorite is believed to be a remnant of a spent
comet, and comets are little more than billions of ice grains
piled together in mountain-sized chunks. When Deamer warmed the
chamber residue in water and peered at it through the microscope
he discovered tiny droplets, each between 10 and 40 micrometres
across, up to the size of red blood cells. Their similarity with
the Murchison droplets was a sure sign that the meteorite
vesicles had had their origins far off in space, not here on
Earth. Deamer also discovered that the vesicles fluoresced under
ultraviolet light, one more indication that they were made of
complex organic molecules.

"It was a remarkable transformation of a few simple,
water-soluble chemicals," says Allamandola. "It would have been
considered science fiction a few years before." It was time to
call in a biochemist.

Last year, Jason Dworkin, who had worked with Stanley Miller,
famous for creating amino acids in the 1950s with little more
than a spark of electricity and a few hot gases, joined the
group.


A closer look


After ruling out contamination, Dworkin has been working on
creating enough of the dust grain ice to get a closer look at
the molecules that make up the vesicles. It's an onerous task.
Running the space chamber for weeks on end yields only about a
milligram of organic residue. And it contains dozens of
different chemicals. Still, so far he has created enough residue
to show that the molecules that make up the outer layer of the
vesicles behave like lipids, which are the major component of
cell membranes.

Just like soap molecules, one end of each vesicle molecule is
attracted to water, while the other end avoids it like the
plague. This allows the molecules to self-organise into spheres,
sticking their water-loving heads towards the outside, and
keeping their water-hating tails tucked away inside.

Even mainstream research into the origin of life, which relies
on mixing chemicals under conditions thought to have existed at
the start of the Earth's history, hasn't had any success in
making lipids or lipid-like structures, says Dworkin. Now
Dworkin plans to find out whether the lipid-like molecules from
the space chamber can form bilayers similar to the membranes of
all modern Earthly cells.

But why get so excited about what looks at best like a very
rudimentary membrane that just happens to glow under ultraviolet
light? Put simply, the finding matters because many experts
believe that life, or at least life as we know it today, could
not exist without boundaries, especially on a waterlogged planet
like our own ("Life is...", New Scientist, 13 June, p 38).

Without barriers, goes one argument, biologically important
molecules would be so diluted in the ocean that no chemistry
could ever happen. Modern cell membranes, with the help of
proteins embedded in them, also act like a home-security and
climate-control system all rolled in one, regulating what leaves
and enters, maintaining the correct pH, and providing a means of
separating charges so that the cell can, for example, create the
energy-carrying molecule ATP. Membranes may even be essential
for stabilising peptides, the precursors of proteins.


A crazy idea


"The [Dworkin] results are very exciting," says geneticist and
astrophysicist Pascale Ehrenfreund of the Leiden Observatory in
the Netherlands, who studies the role of interstellar ice grains
in the origin of life. "Membrane formation is a crucial step in
the first forms of life." Earth's first life forms would
probably have been far too simple to make their own membranes.
But whether they were forced to make use of ready-made reaction
chambers, or whether they were merely strands of nucleic acids
wriggling their way unprotected through the primordial sludge
(sticking to a clay surface or happening upon a drying puddle
could have concentrated the chemicals) is an open question. If
they did need to seek shelter, the Deamer-Allamandola vesicles
could be just the thing.

"If you can form bubbles," says Tom Wdowiak, an astronomer at
the University of Alabama in Birmingham, "then you've got
something that can serve as a capsule." But the Allamandola team
has done more than recreate what might have been our planet's
first mobile homes. Their reenactment of what happens in an
interstellar cloud has also shown that space can generate the
right sorts of life-giving chemicals to go inside. In one
experiment, Allamandola and Bernstein added water to the giant
HMT molecules created in the space chamber, yielding
formaldehyde, ammonia and even small amounts of amino acids.

More recently, the NASA Ames team turned to polycyclic aromatic
hydrocarbons, the largest reservoir of carbon in the universe.
Carbon is an essential part of all known life, and PAHs spewed
out by the sloppy combustion of stars in the process of being
born, contain between 10 and 20 per cent of all the carbon in
the Universe. And although PAHs are never seen in normal,
healthy cells, they are highly biologically active--for example,
PAHs in soot from car engines and factories are carcinogenic
simply because they can wiggle their way into DNA.

The NASA Ames team decided to use their space chamber to find
out what might be happening to the PAHs deep within the
interstellar clouds. The result was totally unexpected. When
they fired gaseous water and PAHs such as naphthalene and
anthracene one at a time on to the simulated "dust grains" in
the space chamber, and bombarded the mixture with ultraviolet
light, it produced compounds uncannily similar to those needed
for life on Earth. "It's the UV light that makes PAHs useful
[for life]," says team member Scott Sandford. The rays broke the
water molecules apart, and the separated hydrogens and
oxygens--locked in place by the cold temperatures--reattached
themselves to the PAH, creating a huge array of complex
chemicals.

"This change is antithetical to what everyone thought," says
Wdowiak. "Everyone thought that PAHs would just break down [when
exposed to UV light]. This is great. We didn't think PAHs would
turn into anything of use. And suddenly we had this huge
reservoir of carbon we never thought about before."

Just this July, space-in-a-lab simulations by NASA Ames team
member Max Bernstein produced compounds called quinones and
alkaloids from PAHs. (It is far easier to analyse the irradiated
PAHs, than the residue made from squirting methane, carbon
monoxide, water vapour and ammonia into the space chambers.)
Alkaloids are ubiquitous in the plant world. Meanwhile, quinones
help all cells move electrons around, are crucial for
photosynthesis in plants and are broken down for energy in human
muscle and brain cells. The NASA Ames team "is showing that
carbon [from space] is coming in, in a form that is rich, that
can be utilised by life," says chemist Richard Zare of Stanford
University in Palo Alto.

Bernstein speculates that interstellar quinones raining down on
Earth provided a tasty treat for early organisms until, at some
point, the primordial forerunner of the plant took advantage of
the quinones to harness sunlight. But Allamandola envisages a
more radical scenario. Sure, the compounds raining down on Earth
in cometary dust could have provided a nutritious meal for
struggling primordial life, he says. But what of those vesicles?
Is it possible--and this, Allamandola knows, "is a crazy
idea"--that they and the complex organic molecules jump-started
life before reaching Earth?

Consider the inside of a comet, he says. There, under layers of
icy material, molecules created by ultraviolet light falling on
PAHs and other gases stuck to silicate grains would be shielded
from the worse radiation. Perhaps the comet swoops by a star,
warming the outside just enough to melt some ice, providing
water for the cell-like vesicles to form, just as they did when
Deamer thawed the residue from the space chamber.

Whizzing through space in the belly of the comet wouldn't be a
smooth ride. Gradually, the amino acids, PAHs and other organics
would jiggle their way into the vesicles. And voil=E0, you'd have
reaction chambers chock-a-block with complex organic molecules
primed to generate the very first cells. "Maybe they're just
sitting there waiting like seeds in a packet to hit the right
place," he says. Allamandola's "crazy idea" could be checked out
early next century when the European Space Agency's
International Rosetta Mission is scheduled to drill into a
comet's core and brings whole pieces back to Earth.

"It's a big stretch from making vesicles and encapsulating
organic compounds to promoting life," says John Cronin, a
prebiotic chemist at Arizona State University in Tempe. "It's
hard to imagine how that can take you to anything as complex as
a nucleic acid that can store and reproduce information." But,
he adds, "it's hard to imagine that process anywhere, so maybe
it's not such a big step."

Now, Bernstein and Allamandola plan to mix PAHs in their space
chamber with all the gases found in an interstellar
cloud--water, plus methane, ammonia and carbon monoxide. "It's
going to be like the Wild West. Anything can happen," says
Allamandola.

"Anything can happen" could be space's new motto. The
space-chamber shows that under extreme conditions simple organic
ingredients can produce a rich banquet of potentially
life-spawning chemicals far more easily than anyone expected. In
short, it could happen just about anywhere.

"The most amazing thing is that we start with something really
simple. And then suddenly we're making this enormous range of
complex molecules," says Allamandola. "When I see this kind of
complexity forming under these exceedingly extreme conditions, I
begin to really believe that life is a cosmic imperative."


Gretel Schueller is assistant editor at Audubon magazine in New York


Graphics:

*Create your own piece of interstellarspace, here on earth, 126K

*Light fantastic, 126K


>From New Scientist, 12 September 1998

=A9 Copyright New Scientist, RBI Limited 1998






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                       Re: UFOR Sighting Reports List

From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:54:00 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:24:03 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOR Sighting Reports List

Dear members and readers

UFOR has opened a new list at the onelist site named
UFORSsightingreports. The list is moderated and will deal with
sighting reports. It will put on the research table sightings and
the research community may act at wish on them. The results can
be posted in the list and in the other UFOR lists.

The subscription site is at:

www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/UFORsightingreports

We are considering moving the other lists to this site and
continue to use the earthops site (space donated by
klaatu@earthops.org) as a backup.

Francisco







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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:56:21 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:03:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 98 09:48:38 PDT

>><snip>

>>>As for the canard about Marcel's not mentioning bodies: Why
>>>should he? If Randle is correct, the bodies were recovered at
>>>another site from the one Marcel examined. C'mon, Dennis.

>>It's not a canard, Jerry, it's a straightforward observation and
>>question to which I've yet to see a reasonable or even
>>semi-plausible explanation.

>Yes, Dennis, I am afraid it remains a canard.

No, Jerry, it's only a canard in your book. The issue of whether
or not Marcel actually encountered bodies at Roswell is germane
and fundamental to ufology as a whole and Roswell in particular.

My dictionary defines canard as "an unfounded or false,
deliberately misleading story." As you well know, or should, I
am making no deliberate, misleading statements about Marcel.
What I am doing is asking you why you think he wasn't invited to
the first party, with the bodies, but was then invited to the
second party, with no bodies, which occasioned a press release.
Don't have a clue, do you? Can't you at least give us a good
canard?

<snip>

>As we have discussed privately, Dennis, all sorts of
>ambiguities, contradictions, and unanswered questions are likely
>to hover over the Roswell events because nobody conducted an
>investigation at the time of its occurrence. When the
>investigation began three decades later, people were dead, or
>their memories were getting foggy.. The only hope for the truth,
>whatever it may be, is if one day whoever possesses the official
>documents decides to release them. Their nonappearance after all
>this time is, at the very least, curious to all but, it seems,
>Air Force apologists.

Yes, but what you're saying is that the truth can only go one
way, your way. What if there are no official documents to
release? But that would make me an AF apologist, wouldn't it?

>It may as well note here the curious silence on the part of the
>anti-Roswell crowd concerning Roswell adjutant Patrick
>Saunders's statement, made to many friends and family members in
>writing before his death, that Randle and Schmitt's account of
>what happened is essentially correct.. I guess you guys are just
>waiting to find your voice, and I have no doubt that soon you'll
>be telling us he's just another of the liars whose good name --
>like that of Jesse Marcel, Sr. -- awaits the inevitable
>trashing. Speaking personally, though, I'd be more inclined to
>take his word on it than yours, Martin Cannon's, or my own.

Was it Saunders, literally on his death bed, who signed off on
Randle/Schmitt's "UFO Crash at Roswell" as a true account? Odd,
but then didn't Randle make numerous corrections to that book
vis a vis Ragsdale, Dennis and others? So which account was
Saunders confirming -- the one written before his death or the
one written afterwards? Did he mean to affirm Ragsdale and
Dennis? After all, both versions can't be right.

>>And it has nothing to do with apologizing for the Air Force, and
>>you know that as well. Why don't you call me an apologist for
>>the GAO, too, while you're at it?

>I'll take your word for it that you're not an AF apologist, though
>your weird defense of its use of bogus testimony in defense
>of its dubious theories would cause any reasonable observer
>to wonder.

You don't have to take my word for anything. I said in the same
or a subsequent post that I didn't accept the AF explanation,
that it would have been more to the point to simply dismiss the
accounts of Ragsdale, Anderson and Dennis at face value. To that
list I would add Kaufmann, and possibly others. How far does the
list expand? Who exaggerated what? I don't know. Do you?

I made no "weird defense of its use of bogus testimony."

>>The only thing I'm apologetic for is trying to make sense of the
>>hopelessly muddled Roswell scenario put out by Randle and
>>others.

>And the AF theories are a model of clarity, rationality, solid
>evidence, and good sense?. Give us all a break.

>Cheers,

>Jerry Clark


Compared to what? Given that the AF is the lying, deceitful
bastards you seem to think they are by rote, would that make the
best proposed Roswell scenario any better or saner by
definition?

I personally don't care what the AF has said or done. As a
ufologist, I'm still waiting for someone on this side of the
argument to give me a coherent picture of what supposedly took
place at Roswell in 1947. So far I haven't seen one.

But I'm glad that you have.

Dennis







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                        Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:37:31 PDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:32:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs


>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:18:47 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

>From: RobIrving <RobIrving@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:36:58 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

>>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:19:00 +0100
>>Subject: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

>Asgeir,

>> ...I wonder whether there were
>> significantly many more crop circle formations in March 1989,
>> e.g. in Canada? Maybe in England?

>I doubt it. You might find the occasional circle in oilseed rape
>(or Canola) at that time of year (in England), but the majority
>appear much later with cereal crops. The same goes for Canada.

>> A vortex-like energy also seems to appear within these
>> formations, and "Considerable evidence shows that crop circles
>> have been known throughout Earth's history."

>So where is this evidence? The earliest record of anything like
>a crop circle is a pamphlet dated 1678, describing a feud
>between a farmer and workers which resulted in his crop being
>cut. It was more likely a case of theft than any vortex-like
>energy and hardly 'considerable evidence' of an historical
>precedent.

>Rob


Rob,

Is there any thinking on why the agriglyphs seem to appear only in
crops of the grass varieties? In Asia would they appear in the big
grass (bamboo), and isn't corn or maize a grass?

I do not recall reading of them appearing in pea or potato crops, for
example.

Leanne





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             Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:15:39 PDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:27:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?


>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:17:06 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

>From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:37:02 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re:  Can Satellite's Microwaves Cause Crop Circles?
>>Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 23:20:05 PDT

>Leanne,

>>It was reported, on this List recently, that a circle appeared
>>"within minutes" in a guarded field. A field that was under
>>observation so there were no hoaxers involved - if the lister
>>had reported honestly. By 'observable' I meant that no hoaxers
>>were observed in its very quick creation - just a few minutes.
>>Sorry for any confusion on that point.

>Believe it or not, not everything reported on this list is actual fact,
>even when reported honestly.

>The event to which you are most likely referring occurred in
>1991 at (or below) Morgan's Hill, near Devizes, Wiltshire. On
>top of the hill were two organized watches, namely 'Operation
>Chameleon', fronted by the BBC's David Morgenstern and John
>MacNish, and Dr Terence Meaden's 'Operation Blue Hill'.  The
>formation did not arrive 'within minutes' in the sense inferred,
>but was only noticed after a thick mist had cleared soon after
>dawn. It had been there for a couple of hours at least.

>Morgenstern, MacNish and Meaden all believe that the formation
>was made by a group of circlemakers collectively known as UBI,
>who at that time voluntarily manned a number of such operations
>and were closely associated with Colin Andrews.

>Moreover, the UBI were observed entering the field, and some of
>its members have since admitted making the formation, although
>it's unlikely that you'll read about this on any circles
>website.

>However, you would have read about their activities in an
>article by Jim Schnabel and myself for the Independent magazine
>(29-8-92), entitled 'Rolling Their Own', and various books since
>(by MacNish, for example). It's unlikely that you'll find any
>reference to these on circles websites either.

>One of the most interesting aspects of this subject, to me, is
>how stories such as this one evolve from myth - repeated every
>year in different forms - into fact, like urban folklore. I
>could cite a number of similar accounts since 1991 (most
>famously the so-called 'Julia Set' formation in 1995) of circles
>forming within minutes or sooner, but they rarely survive
>scrutiny.

>(Another long-standing myth, of course, is that SDI's satellites
>are playing microwave etch-a-sketch in wheat fields.)

>Rob

Rob (& List),

Thanks for the update.

Where would we trusting tyros be without the clarifications,
elucidations & shuddupations of the likes your good self, Bruce
Wannabee, JBJ, and the Laurel & Hardy of the U.K. - Max & Tim? ;-)

But seriously . . . It is good for we newcomers to pick up on the
accumulated experience of the older regulars. I have found the
insights into issues such as microwave technology and video imaging,
as well, hoaxing, extremely informative.

Please keep up the good work - even though it may be a bit tiring to
continually rein in we eager, gullible beginners year after tear.

As for this eager, gullible tyro I will continue to play Devil's
Advocate from time to time as I pick my way through the 'debris
field' of ufology.

Regards,

Leanne Martin
Compueter Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia







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             Re: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:38:44 PDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:04:28 -0400
Subject: Re: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story


>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:20:28 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story

>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:59:57 +0200
>From: Anatoly Kutovoy <kutovoj@MAIL.IAE.LT>
>Subject: Shaitan Mazar. Real story.
>To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

>The Devil's Grave. Almost Fantastic Story.

>By Nikolay Subbotin,
>Director RUFORS (Russian UFO Research Station)

<snip>

Dear List,

For me this sounds more like a phantasy story but I would sure
like to see some real evidence.

Has anybody seen any satellite photography of the site?

There seems to be an incredible amount of detail yet no
substance with so much technology gone to the site.

I kinda hope I'm the only one smelling a hoax.

Regards,

Leanne Martin
Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia






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                      Recent Ardennes UFO Video Online

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:12:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:12:40 -0400
Subject: Recent Ardennes UFO Video Online


Received via "alt.paranet.ufo"
September 10 at 21.43 local Danish time.

Stig

*******

Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:38:28 +0200
From: "TW" <ufocom@skynet.be>
Subject: UFO's : the recent french video is online!
Message-ID: <6t99r3$kd9$1@news1.skynet.be>


Hello,

The footage of the UFO over the French Ardennes (Northern
France) is now available at the following address:

http://www.finart.be/UfocomHq/uscharleville3.htm

There's also something very interesting at :

http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/BPPWrkshp_STAIF_PrePrnt.htm

... or when the sciences go faster than the fiction.

Regards,

Thierry








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                       Re: Michael Wolf's Credentials?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:47:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:31:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Michael Wolf's Credentials?


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Michael Wolf's Credentials?
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:12:10 -0400

>>From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:01:19 EDT
>>Re: Conferences and Credentials
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Michael Wolf's Credentials?

Hi guys!

>>Can anyone or Dr. Michael Wolf tell me what the following title
>>and credentials are about?

>>Michael Wolf, MD, PhD, ScD, JD
>>National Security Council Advisory to NSC's MJ-12
>>(UFO Security) Subcommittee

>>I am very curious if anyone can explain this to me.

>It seems that he has done everything, has been everywhere and
>knows everything.

>Besides the list of degrees given above, indicating that he is a
>Ph. D (I think in physics), a medical doctor (I think a surgeon)
>and a lawyer (doctor of law, JD), I seem to recall that he also
>claims to have been an Air Force officer and to have been in the
>Viet Nam War.

>Perhaps someone stored the list of Wolf's credentials and could
>post them again so we can all judge the credibility of this
>person!

As for Michael Wolf's credentials, doesn't his inclusion in the
"MJ-12 (UFO Security) NSC subcommittee" kind of say it all?

I mean, what else does anyone need to know about the credibility
of anyone making such a claim?

That said, perhaps he also has an Iron Cross, the Nobel Peace
Proze and the Heisemann Trophy to his credit as well as the Croix-
de-Guerre, and a lump of lunar rock to prove his travels.

A guy in an English pub once tried to sell me a Zippo cigarette
lighter which had traveled to the moon and back (carried by an
astronaut, of course). It had a very nice NASA emblem on the
side too. He looked disappointed when I didn't offer to buy it.

Best wishes

-  Larry Hatch







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                        Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug"<KONAWS@statoil.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:17:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:25:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs


>From: RobIrving <RobIrving@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:36:58 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

>>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:19:00 +0100
>>Subject: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

<snip>

>> A vortex-like energy also seems to appear within these
>> formations, and "Considerable evidence shows that crop circles
>> have been known throughout Earth's history."

>So where is this evidence? The earliest record of anything like
>a crop circle is a pamphlet dated 1678, describing a feud
>between a farmer and workers which resulted in his crop being
>cut. It was more likely a case of theft than any vortex-like
>energy and hardly 'considerable evidence' of an historical
>precedent.

>Rob

Rob and everyone,

I found this 'evidence' at:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/aug/m29-003.shtml

>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 02:30:15 +0200
>Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 20:26:58 -0400
>Subject: Crop Circles: Messages From Beyond?

>Excerpt from FATE Magazine's September 1998 issue

>http://www.llewellyn.com/fate/9809/pr1_0998.htm

>Go the page for photos!

>Stig

>*******


>Crop Circles: Messages from Beyond?
>article and photos by Ron Russell
>Copyright 1998 FATE Magazine
>September 1998

and thus:

>Considerable evidence shows that crop circles have been known
>throughout Earth's history. The Dead Sea Scrolls' Book of Noah
>and several works of medieval literature mention them. Many
>ancient stone carvings, including one at Stonehenge, seem
>remarkably similar to the shapes in the fields.

However, I haven't "validated" these claims myself - yet, but
I'll try to do my very best, and maybe with a little help from
The List?


Regards
AWS





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                     UK TV Show Is Looking For UFO Info

From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:04:37 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:45:11 -0400
Subject: UK TV Show Is Looking For UFO Info

Dear colleagues,

The following production company are looking for UFO information
for part of their 'First On Five' slot for the UK's Channel Five
station.

Mark Stanton,
Real Life Productions,
First On Five,
TV House, 104
Kirkstall Road,
Leeds, West Yorkshire,
England, LS3 1JS.

Tele: (0113) 234 7271.
Fax: (0113) 244 2061.

They are willing to listen to information from around the world
and not just the UK.

All the best,


Philip Mantle.







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                    Jaime Maussan British T.V. Interview

From: Ian J. Darlington <webmaster@interweb-design.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 14:34:08 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:50:39 -0400
Subject: Jaime Maussan British T.V. Interview


This morning, following their brief crop circle report two days
ago (which this investiagtor unfortunately missed), the British
television programme 'GMTV' interviewed noted Mexican researcher
Jaime Maussan.

This was in resepct of the BUFORA conference in Leeds this week
and allowed Jaime to plug the conference as well as show some
brief clips of recent footage taken in Mexico.

The majority of the clips were of the silver orbs flying in
large formations, as anyone who has seen the videos 'Voyagers of
the Sixth Sun' etc will be familiar with.

However, one important clip was the Mexico City daylight footage
which was shown on British T.V. - to my knowledge - for the
first time today. The interesting point here is there was no
fanfare, no pre-advertising of the segment with Jaime Maussan -
no nothing. It was just slipped in amongst the other footage.

Although this is now disputed as a possible fake, Jaime claimed
quite openly that he is skeptical in general and admitted, I
believe, that the footage could be a fake, but is still baffled
why he has such seemingly honest witnesses.

The segment with Jaime lasted approximately ten minutes and the
British media establishment continued with its dogma of
ridiculing all reports and footage by referring to flocks of
birds, satellites and meteors - they even stooped so low as to
claim it could have been a piece of kids sweets (candy) called
'Flying Saucers' on a string!

If anyone in the UK managed to record this programme we would
like to hear from you to discuss getting hold of a copy - purely
for the Mexico City footage, of course. Please contact Ian
Darlington at the addresses below.

Ian Darlington.

Investigator & Editor/Webmaster 'Skywatchers'
Journal of the Cornwall UFO Research Group
http://www.interweb-design.co.uk/cuforg
mailto:cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk
ICQ 12387110









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   Sep > Sep 11

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:36:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:37:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

As a small fish watching this "debate" between two heavyweights
have to ask a few questions:

>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:39:28 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:08:52 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Dennis and list -

>>I usually avoid these arguments because they normally lead
>>nowhere. However, there are a couple of comments that I think
>>need to be made.

>Kevin,

>Thanks for weighing in. Jorge Luis Borges put it this way:
>"There is no intellectual exercise that is not ultimately
>pointless." But there is evidence that Borges, in his roundabout
>way, made the statement that he did precisely to initiate such
>an exercise. Arguments such as these turn up all sorts of arcana
>that one might not have been aware of otherwise. See below for
>an example.

Are you indicating that the discussion regarding the Roswell
Event is nothing more than an "intellectual exercise"?
Secondly, are there any new arguements being debated here, or is
much of this simply posturing?

>>>For that matter, Blanchard never mentioned bodies, either. Why
>>>not? Having already spilled the beans about the recovery of a
>>>flying disc (which his press release apparently referred to as
>>>"relatively intact," why omit the bodies?

>>No one spoke to Blanchard about this. We don't know what he
>>might have known or didn't know. The reason to omit the bodies
>>was because that takes the discussion to another level.

>We know that if bodies were recovered at a crash site prior to
>the Brazel site that Blanchard would most certainly have known
>about same, indeed, he would had to have initiated their
>recovery.

I have to ask why you feel certain that Blanchard would have
know about alleged bodies recovered at an earlier crash
location?

>>>(Brief aside: Most Roswell hotbloods fail to address the strange
>>>circumstances surrounding the original Blanchard press release.
>>>One, why did Blanchard release it in the first place, presumably
>>>without having first secured higher approval?

>>(Brief aside: Blanchard was under no obligation to appeal to
>>higher authority to make a press release. He was authorized, as
>>commanding officer of the 509th Bomb Group to make press
>>releases. This is a moot point.

>Under no obligation? What do you mean by obligation? Do you
>think he could have issued a press release declaring that we
>were now effectively at war with the Soviet Union without
>consulting higher ups (no one knew where the debris came from or
>what it implied), simply because he had the authority to issue
>press releases? Of course not. Either he thought this matter was
>tremendously, earthshakingly important (in which case he would
>have arguably sought approval) or he didn't.

Isn't it possible that Blanchard believed that this matter was
already known to the public, since it had been reported to the
local authorities by civilians. As Commander of the Base, he may
have felt the need to quickly explain what he knew about the
event to show that the military was on top of the situation. If
the base communicatons for that time period hadn't been
destroyed, we might be able to answer some of these questions.
But we are now trying to look back fifty years and analyze his
intent, based to a great degree on our beliefs.

>But I was there at the 50th anniversary celebration in Roswell
>(and so were you, Kevin) and saw Marcel Jr. put his stamp of
>approval on the so-called Derrell Sims Roswell specimen. Sad,
>wasn't it?

I was there as well, and it wasn't really a "stamp of approval".
Jesse (Jr.) had been asked to take part in a number of events
that week, and the 'Press Conference', that wasn't really a
press conference, was a pretty sad event for all involved.

<snip>

The Roswell Event has become so publicized and there are so many
profiteers involved (along with honest researchers) that the
entire matter has become a muddy mess.

(Sorry for the interruption)

Steve






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 11

                Randle & Johnson On Roswell [was: Roswell and

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:53:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:16:18 -0400
Subject: Randle & Johnson On Roswell [was: Roswell and


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:03:28 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Roswell and 'Alien Rapture'

>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:44:59 EDT
>>Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:12:01 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Roswell and 'Alien Rapture'

>>>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>>>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:56:46 EDT
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture' -- A "Press" Response

<snip>


>Well, this isn't quite right. According to Major Jesse Marcel,
>Colonel Thomas DuBose and Warrant Officer Irving Newton, other
>reporters did interview Ramey and question the staff in person
>about the debris. First, we have the photograph taken of Irving
>Newton which is not one of those now claimed by Johnson. Second,
>we have statements by all three suggesting they met with the
>press. DuBose said there were four or five reporters present.
>Newton said that he entered a room with a number of people
>including reporters. Marcel said that he was not allowed to talk
>to the reporters in the room.

>>So, while it is clear that Johnson met with Ramey alone, other
>>reporters had the opportunity as well. Johnson certainly can't
>>tell us what happened in Ramey's office after he left, but those
>>who were there can, and each of them, who has spoken about it
>>has suggested there were a number of reporters present. The
>>photograph of Newton, taken later in the day, after Ramey's
>>office had been cleaned (the hat and tie on the radiator have
>>been removed) suggests a second meeting with reporters.

>>If Johnson was the _only_ reporter to interview Ramey about
>>this, then he must account for the photograph that he didn't
>>take, and the statements of the men who were there the whole
>>time, and not just briefly about 4:30 or 5:00.

>>KRandle

>Kevin Randle has tried for many YEARS to conjure up a "press
>conference" in General Ramey's office on July 8, 1947, and has
>insisted on describing such as being fact in his writings
>regarding the Roswell Event. I have discussed this with him over
>a period of several hours on at least five occasions when he has
>phoned me.

This is inaccurate. We did not discuss it for several hours.

>Where is there ANY evidence of any OTHER media
>representatives being present in General Ramey's office that
>day? I have asked that question for nearly ten years and Randle
>has yet to provide a scintilla of EVIDENCE of ANY press
>conference. Let us examine the evidence (as opposed to rumor)
>and, hopefully, now put this fable to rest finally.

Didn't I just quote three different people who were in the room
and talked of meeting reporters other than Johnson? Wouldn't the
statements by these three constitute evidence? Johnson might
have asked this question about providing evidence, but he didn't
ask me.

>First of all, "press conferences" -- as we know them today --
>had not yet been born! During the five years that I was a full
>time reporter/photographer for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram --
>1943-1947 -- I do not recall EVER covering ANY event where
there >was more than ONE reporter or ONE photographer present.
It was >quite different in those days.

Well then, it must NEVER have happened.

>My paper, the Morning Fort Worth Star-Telegram had no
>competition in its market so there would have been no occasion
>for any competition to be present. There was during those years
>NO TV station and the radio stations did not have "spot news"
>assignment reporters working in the field. There were no
>facilities for "remote" live broadcasts and the only portable
>recorders were poor quality wire recorders -- which I never saw
>used by any of the Fort Worth area stations. The wire services
>relied on their member newspapers to provide both news coverage
>and photo coverage so I never saw anyone in the field
>specifically from a wire service.

Didn't you tell me, on tape, that there was a radio broadcast
each day from the newsroom of the Star-Telegram? Would that be
considered a remote. Hell, even KGFL, the tiny Roswell station
did remote broadcasts and wire recorded interviews in that time.

>Since just by fate I apparently arrived at Ramey's office before
>he did and he obviously had not had an opportunity to view the
>Roswell debris since it all had not yet been unwrapped prior to
>my arrival (see at least two packages lying on the floor STILL
>not unwrapped in all the seven fotos taken that day) that
>certainly seems to rule out any determination to that point as
>to the true nature of the debris. Until Ramey had had an
>opportunity to examine the debris -- and then to have his
>"hunches" later confirmed by weather officer Newton -- he would
>not have been in any position to make any statement that this
>was NOT a "flying saucer" as had been previously announced
>officially earlier in the day by the AAF. Even generals did not
>claim clairvoyant powers in those days! If it had been
>determined in Roswell as to the "true identity" of what Marcel
>et al. "captured", certainly COL Blanchard as group commander
>could have made the "correction" announcement there just as he
>made the initial announcement. There would then have been NO
>photo opportunity in Fort Worth and Ramey would have had no need
>to get into that loop!

Wonderful argument and totally irrelevant. You told me that
General Ramey told you it was a weather balloon at the time you
were in his office. You told this to me on more than one
occasion and more than once in the first two interviews. It is
quite clear that these are your words and not mine. Clairvoyance
has nothing to do with it. General Ramey could look at the
material and tell what it was. As you said to me,  "I posed
General Ramdy with this debris. At that time I was briefed on
the idea that it was not a flying disc, as first reported, but
in fact was a weather balloon that had crashed." That is what
you said to me. Which part of your statement is in error?

>Ramey chose to go on the radio live to make his "weather device"
>announcement rather than to hold any kind of "press conference."
>He physically traveled across town to the studios of station
>WBAP (which the Star-Telegram also owned) about an hour after I
>left his offices to make the announcement around 6 p.m.

Wouldn't this then be a press conference? That he was not at his
office would be irrelevant.

>So, as I have asked Kevin Randle since 1981, where is there ANY
>byline story of ANY reporter or ANY photo credit of ANY
>photographer who ever attended a Roswell "press conference"
>ANYWHERE? Or the name of ANY reporter or photographer who
>claimed to have attended such a press conference? Where are
>these phantoms?

Clearly he means 1991 rather than 1981... Well, let's see.
Although Johnson told me that he wrote the story in the
Star-Telegram, he now denies it. Would that be the evidence for
which he searches? It didn't have a by-line, but it still is a
story by a reporter about those events and one he now denies he
wrote.

Still, we have the statements of Marcel, DuBose and Newton about
Ramey meeting with reporters. That would seem to be the evidence
that Johnson demands. Why does he reject it?

>Because Kevin Randle has remained SO CONVINCED that there did
>exist such a press conference -- even in the complete absence of
>any scintilla of evidence -- I have in recent years tried to
>investigate this point carefully. I went to the Star-Telegram
>morgue just last December and carefully went through all the
>files of all the editions during early July of 1947. I now KNOW
>-- and have photo copies of -- the articles and photos the
>Star-Telegram published in EACH edition during those days re
>Roswell and UFO reports. Randle never has told me that he also
>has thoroughly researched this point. He seems to continue to
>rely on conjecture or fable.

Well, then let me tell you that I have done that as well... and
I have been throught the files of the Dallas Morning News as
well. And other newspapers in Texas. But more to the point, why
would I tell Johnson anything, especially since he stopped
communicating with me after I suggested that his own words said
something other than he is telling us today.

>I have read many of the Roswell accounts and I never have seen
>any other photo of the alleged Roswell debris other than the six
>photos I took of General Ramey, COL Dubose and Major Marcel ..
>and the single photo of Irving Newton.

Let's see, originally you told me you had taken but two photos.
Then you told me you had taken four and were confused as to how
the Marcel photos ended up in the Star-Telegram collection. Now
you say you took six photos. Okay. I have no problem with that.

>Just recently I talked
>with retired Major Irving Newton and specifically asked him if
>he recalls the circumstances of his being photographed in
>General Ramey's office. Unfortunately, he says that he has no
>recall as to who photographed him or if in fact there were any
>civilian reporters present in General Ramey's office. (There may
>have been some AAF PIO types there.)

Which is NOT what General DuBose said. DuBose was quite clear on
the point, as was Marcel. Other reporters were there, and if
that is true, then we have, by definition, a press conference.
This is however, an argument over semantics which takes us away
from real research.

>He says his best
>recollection is of Major Marcel following him around the office
>trying to show him the symbols on some of the pieces of wreckage
>and trying to convince him that this stuff was from "out of this
>world." This is consistent with the sworn statement Newton made
>which is included in the 1995 official Air Force report
>regarding the "Roswell Incident." The interviews of Dubose and
>Marcel compelled them to rely on dimming 40+-year-old memory.
>There is evidence that they, too, may have had flawed recall
>also. That can be a real impediment to true research.

So your 40+ year old memories are accurate. Those of Irving
Newton are accurate. But those of Marcel and DuBose are not
accurate. Interesting.

>I have not seen any theories advanced re who took the
>"mysterious" photo of Newton other than this probably was an AAF
>PIO photographer called in to take a picture to back up the
>quote from Newton validating Ramey's "weather device"
>announcement. Incidentally, the Star-Telegram never ran the
>Newton photo and I have never seen it published in any newspaper
>of that time.

Well, if you didn't see it published in a newspaper of the time,
then it must not have been published. So what is your point. Oh,
by the way, I have seen it published in newspapers of the time.
The Midland Texas newspaper, for one, carried it. Wouldn't this
also suggest that I have researched the point in depth?

>Finally, if anyone knows the etiology of the Newton photo or
>where the negative might be located -- or where a good
>enlargement might be obtained that can be studied, I certainly
>would appreciate receiving this information. The RPIT (Roswell
>Photo Interpretation Team) very much would like to have access
>to a good copy of the Newton photo for its close and thorough
>study.

>James Bond Johnson

Such, all you have to do it ask. The photo and negative should
be found at the Bettmann Photo Archives in New York City. Which,
by the way, also has a couple of negatives of the pictures you
took. I believe I have provided that information in the past.

The problem here is that I relied on the 40+ year old memories
of J. Bond Johnson when I wrote my articles. His new memories
are in conflict with his old. So, now he denies that he said the
things he said, though he has heard himself say them because I
sent him the tapes. He claims to have argued these points with
me but I have initiated all the communications. When he doesn't
want to answer questions, he doesn't bother to answer.

The point is, everything I have reported about what Johnson said
and did was written after I had talked with him. He said it all
on tape, recorded, I might add, with his permission. So, that's
where we are.

KRandle






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   Sep > Sep 11

                              Filer's Files #36

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 23:33:27 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:06:17 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #36


Filer's Files #36-1998  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,     MUFON Eastern Director,
September 10, 1998,   Majorstar@aol.com  609 654-0020

MUFON�s mission is the systematic collection and analysis of UFO data, with
the ultimate goal of learning the origin and nature of the UFO phenomenon.

Don�t miss the SECRET KGB UFO FILES that examine accounts of alleged Russian
contact with extraterrestrials.  The show is on TNT television Sunday night,
September 13, 1998, at 8:00 PM (et/pt) and again at 9:30 PM.  TNT spared no
expense to buy some of the best Soviet Intelligence data available.  When you
watch the extraordinary special gun camera film footage of Soviet fighter
aircraft chasing UFOs, remember we have comparable film.  There is film of
Soviet aircraft apparently shot down by UFOs.  There is interesting scene of
crashed saucer guarded by numerous Soviet soldiers and even an alien autopsy.
Although I personally was not able to authenticate the film, it is some of the
best I have ever seen.  The film is narrated by Roger Moore who is best known
for his James Bond roles.  Antonio Huneeus, Dr. Richard Haines, Stan Friedman,
and myself are interviewed.  The KGB agent�s interviews correlate well with
our intelligence data.  You can get a glimpse of me at the very beginning and
during the footage of the crashed saucer.  I was up all night flying prior to
the filming, so I look a little tired.  You will see what the Soviet's were
really hiding behind the Iron Curtain so try to catch it.

NEW JERSEY

PERTH AMBOY:  On Sunday, August 30, 1998, Jeff B., 51, and his lady friend,
Gabrielle, were driving through Perth Amboy on their way to New York City's
Staten Island borough when they spotted something gleaming in the daylight
sky.  "I was approaching Staten Island on Highway 278," Jeff reported, "I was
about ten minutes from the toll booths for the Outer Bridge.  I looked out at
about 30 degrees to the horizon to the west and the object appeared to me to
be a flattened oval.  It was about the size of a child's aspirin held on edge
at arm's length and was silver and completely motionless.  There was a blue
sky and a few cumulous clouds."   "I said to my lady friend, Gabrielle, 'What
is that?'"   Jeff then commented that the object "did not look like any
aircraft known to me--no wings, no tail, nothing in the way of a
distinguishing profile." "It diminished in size very rapidly.  It appeared to
be moving at a high rate of speed straight away from us at an angle of ascent
of about 10 degrees above my original line of sight.  Its color changed to
gray once it began to move.  It was gone in three seconds."   "Gabrielle's
eyesight is better than mine.  She felt its shape was roughly that of a
flattened oval, was actually trapezoidal.  She could discern edges and the
object appeared to be five-sided."   "Ten minutes later, as we approached the
Outer Bridge. Gabrielle looked south and saw another UFO of the same relative
size.  She thought, 'What a big bird,' when the object moved straight down
very smoothly and with great uniformity of motion and disappeared." Jeff
added. "I've always approved of Carl Sagan's statement that extraordinary
claims require extraordinary proof.  I've never saw a UFO until last Sunday."
Thanks to Paul Williams of WBAI in New York City and UFO Roundup Vol. 3 #36
editor Joe Trainor 9/9/98.

GEORGIA, NORTH CAROLINA

CHATSWORTH:  Georgia State Director, Tom Sheets reports on new activity.  "I
received information from Terry Kimbrell,  MUFON/ISUR, that they have been
receiving UFO reports in the mountain areas of North Carolina to include
Sylvia, Clyde, Asheville-Mars Hill, which is not far from the Georgia  line.
These have included recent sightings all the way up toward the Virginia line
at Dobson and Mt. Airy, also in the Morganton and Lenoir areas.  On September
3, 1998, we have other info that there may have been additional events
reported to FM radio US 101 in Chattanooga about a Chattanooga UFO.  The first
call was followed immediately by a call-in from a Dade County, Georgia
resident about a UFO over Dade.  All of this combines with heavy UFO reports
from Fyffe, and Sand Moutain, Alabama in the  last few years.  What Terry
Kimbrell is speculating on, is a UFO corridor similar to the one in Western
Georgia.  Drawing a line west to east from Sand Mountain through Chatsworth,
and then sort of jinking northeast into North Carolina.  The route follows the
higher mountains and surrounding rural terrain.  This could be a continuation
of the Western Georgia corridor that points  into the valley where Highway 411
runs towards Chatsworth.  Maybe we have some sort of 'Blue Ridge UFO Corridor'
but we really can't say that until we receive as many reports as those that
made the Western Georgia (THC) famous.  The mountain folk are very closed
mouth about reporting UFOs.  Thanks to Tom Sheets.
Editors Note:  UFOs have been reported over the Appalachian Mountain chain for
many years.  There are numerous military training routes, and slow speed low
altitude training routes in this general area.

NORTH CAROLINA

Two college students, a girl and her boyfriend, went camping last week in
Pinnacle, North Carolina, in the state park between Mount Airy and Pilot
Mountain, about 125 miles northwest of Raleigh, and had a UFO encounter.   "We
were at a campground off Route 52 North, exit 129, about 20 miles (32
kilometers) north of Winston-Salem," she reported. Around 11:00 PM, the dogs
began barking.  As her boyfriend opened the opened the tent to get a better
look around, he saw an object quickly fly away.  Too quick to be an airplane.
He woke me up, but it was too late, it had flown away.  Then, at 1:00 AM, it
was back.  A ball of light, getting bigger, then smaller as it moved back and
forth.  "We were a bit shaken."  "After 30 seconds, we thought, 'let's shine a
light on it to see what it does.' It became agitated and moved around more
vigorously.  It seemed as if it mimicked the patterns in which we were shining
the light.  Now we were really scared."  Shortly thereafter, the couple walked
to another campsite and pointed out the weird light to the other campers.  One
man also saw it moving.  He said, "He had seen something similar a few nights
before, and there are no air/military bases nearby."   "At 1:00 AM, we noticed
a second smaller craft at 8 o'clock position. The last thing we both remember
before succumbing to sleep was two red flashes of light spreading across the
sky.  I woke up suddenly and startled around 3:00 AM, I woke my boyfriend up.
He also was shaken. This time the first craft (light) was at 4 o'clock
position. We decided to leave, so we threw the dogs in the car and headed back
to the campus."   She added, "The size of the object at its brightest was
about three stars put together."  Thanks to Rev. Billy Dee/UFOSSI and UFO
Roundup Vol. 3 #36 editor Joe Trainor 9/9/98

FLORIDA

TAMPA: We are all set for a rash of "sightings" as B-2's bombers will deploy
to MacDill Air Force Base starting on September 13, 1998.  This information is
according to Captain Bruce Sprecher, the spokesman for the 509th Bomb Wing at
Whiteman.  Thanks to Mark & MM Zimmer, MM maz1@winnet.net

GULF BREEZE SHORELINE PARK SOUTH:  On August 22, 1998, from 11:00 PM until
2:15 AM a strange phenomena was observed by Ray and Elise Pollock, Beverly
Pilcher, and Celena Salyars in the waters of Santa Rosa Sound.  They described
the odd behavior of sound and light reflections on the waters.  The area
involved also included both sides of the pier looking toward Bob Sikes Bridge.
Beverly Pilcher was standing near the pier when she experienced a powerful
wave of ringing in her ears.  She described it as being so strong that her
ears hurt -- like being jabbed with a swab or something.  A helicopter was
observed coming low over the Deer Point area and moving out over the Island
making no sound.  It was fairly well lit with steady white lights and blinking
red lights.  It was also projecting a steady searchlight type beam on the
waters as if searching for something.  It made a circle around the area,
extending out into the Gulf but strangely we heard no sound whatsoever.
Normally aircraft and boats would be heard at this distance.  We then noted a
number of power boats traveling the waterway from the Bob Sikes bridge and
realized no sound from them could be detected.  Earlier in the evening boats
traversing the waterway could be clearly heard.

We then noticed that there was a dense black area in the waters that did not
reflect the light from the lights on the beach. The water was unusually
smooth.  There were short reflections of the lights in the waters immediately
adjacent to the shoreline at our observation point in the Park - beyond the
"black" water area.  This area also had a complete absence of sound from
boats.  We then noticed that while there were some reflections on the East
side of the pier from the lights on the Bob Sikes Bridge, they were very dim.
Additionally, there were no traffic sounds coming from the bridge, despite the
fact that there was plenty of observed traffic on the bridge.  Beverly Pilcher
and Celena Salyars went out to the end of the pier at Shoreline Park and could
observe this "black" water.  They also curiously observed that their voice
echoed sharply from the pier facing this black water.  Ray and Elise still on
the shore could clearly hear Beverly and Celena on the end of the pier and
vice/versa.  Remember the "black water" was slightly beyond the pier.  A boat
coming up the waterway from the Deer Point/Pensacola Bay direction was
observed to be making no sound, both from the Shoreline Beach and from the end
of the pier. It did not become audible until it crossed the area of black
water making an approach to the launching ramps at Shoreline Park.  At that
point it suddenly became audible and included conversations being carried on
aboard the boat.  Once it became obvious that something unusual was going on,
we made it a point to make repeated observations of everything around us.
Boats moving up the waterway from the Bob Sikes Bridge shortly became rather
extraordinarily audible and remained audible, but varying in intensity or
loudness along the waterway until a point slightly before a point that could
be reached by an extension of the pier at Shoreline Park.  At this point they
became inaudible and remained that way until they were out of sight at Deer
Point.  This was observed repeatedly.  After approximately and hour and a half
of these observations, the water gradually began to show reflections again in
the area where they previously did not show.  Also, boats traversing the water
way became audible but muffled for a longer stretch of the waterway directly
in front of Shoreline Park.  After these events, Ray and Elise Pollock and
Beverly Pilcher experienced sleep disturbances and weird dreams for the next
few hours.  Celena Salyars also reported weird dreams.  Phil Gerbig remembers
reading an article where the Coast Guard was chasing a UFO under water in
Pascagoula, Mississippi.  They seemed to have experienced a similar phenomenon
to our observations and it was called a Dead Zone.  Thanks to Ray Pollock.

WASHINGTON:

LYNNWOOD: Michael Shaun Sanders reports seeing a UFO outside bedroom window at
10:00 PM on June 15, 1998.  He reports that a round shaped like saucer  shot a
blue light into my eyes, that made me unmovable for ten minutes.  We have
called his phone number: (425) 774-6258 to verify his report.  We left a
message to return our call on his tape recorder.
His Address: 20923 44th Pl. W, Lynnwood, Washington. 98036. E-mail:
msanders69@.com

CANADA

The Prince George Citizen reports that Mystery crop circles were found at
Vanderhoof on September 1, 1998, according to Citizen staff writer Gordon
Hoekstra.  "An unexplained phenomena -- dubbed crop circles around the world
-- has  been discovered in the forestry and farming community of Vanderhoof,
100  kilometers west of here.  Vanderhoof airport owner Brent Miskuski and
pilot  Larry Frey discovered 10 precise circles of varying sizes between 10 to
100 feet wide (three to 30 meters) in a ripe oat field just beyond  the
approach to the runway this weekend.  "This is bizarre, I'll tell you," said
Miskuski. "It's one out of the  twilight zone."    One of the local farmers
said his dogs were barking out of control  unexplainably Friday night, said
Miskuski, adding there was no wind that night either.    Mifuskuski -- who
took pictures from the air -- describes the oats as being  bent over
symmetrically and lying down very flat.  There are no signs of  trampling or
disturbance, and there were no paths to the circles or between  them, he said.
Vanderhoof resident Jay Bangs also viewed the circles from the air when he was
flying with his father Sunday morning.  He came back after the flight to  get
a closer look.    He thought there were maybe a half dozen "perfectly round"
circles of  varying sizes up to 50 feet (15 meters) wide.    Bangs described
the oats as being all neatly bent over, with the oats  intact on the stalks.
"It was very precise."    It's creating quite a bit of talk in the community,
said Bangs, who also  took pictures of the circles.  Crop circles first
appeared in modern times in England in 1972, according  to The Crop Circular
Internet site.    Since then, there have been about 9,000 reported and
documented circles --  about 90% in England but also in B.C.    About 40% of
the documented circles have been determined to be hoaxes, says  Internet
author Freddy Silva, where the grass is broken, trampled, bruised  or crushed.
In the authentic, unexplained formations the stems are bent, normally about
an inch off the ground, says Silva." Thanks to Michael Strainic,  Canadian
National Director MUFON: (604) 683-6168  e-mail:  ufocan@renaissoft.com;
www.renaissoft.com/ufocanada

NORWAY

HESSDALEN: John Thompson has notified us about Project Hessdalen, an automatic
field tracking station operation, designed to monitor the sky for unusual
phenomenon.  The project  started on August 7, 1998, and includes a computer
system that is used for storing readings.  A magnetometer measures the
magnetic field in three directions: X, which is south-north, Y, which is east-
west and Z, which is up-down.  The main purpose of this measurement is to see
if there is any change in the magnetic field.  A black-and-white solid state
camera, with a wide angle lens, is connected to a Silicon Graphics Indy
computer, which analyze the picture every second.  When "something" is
discovered, a video-recorder starts to record it.  As long as this "something"
is moving in the picture, the video-recorder is recording. If this "something"
stops or disappears, the video-recorder will run for 15 more seconds.  The
picture that started the video-recorder, will be sent to the web page
immediately.  It is possible to adjust the trigger level, which starts the
recorder and sent the picture.  At least one picture is taken every hour.
Anything unusual will cause a picture to be captured is sent immediately for
analysis.  Interesting alarm pictures are placed in the computer for all of us
to view.  Your browser needs Java to be able to see the magnetometer
measurements.  Netscape 4.05 is preferable.  Martin R. Thorsen and
Erling.P.Strand operate the site that includes hourly photos and magnometer
readings at-
http://www.hiof.no/crulp/prosjekter/hessdalen/html/privat/privindex.html.

MUFON investigator John Thompson comments:  We would like to set up a similar
system at my house, atop a high hill, in Troup County, Georgia.  I would like
to have,  perhaps, four or five wide-angle cameras and several magnetometers
to cover 360 degrees and above.  Unlike Hessdalen, Norway I feel confident we
would get some real UFOs that are not of only natural origin.  I'm convinced
from all the photos I've seen taken at Hessdalen, that they are only dealing
with piezoelectric UFOs that are sometimes incorrectly called, "earth lights".

TURKEY

ANTALYA: Travel agent, Hakan Mr. Soyler reports we saw two lights coming from
the Olympos Valley on August 22, 1998.  We were in a very silent place lying
on the sandy beach at 12:20 AM on the Southwest coast of the Mediterranean
Sea.  The UFOs were very close to each other and very fast.  The closest UFO
to us was very bright.  We did not see any colored lights on their wings or
hear any sounds.  When they gained altitude we were able to see a third UFO.
They moved very fast creating a delta shape, and in a very short time they
became like stars and disappeared.  For these reasons we do not think they
were military jets.  We could not see any stars for a while in the area where
they disappeared even though the weather was very clear.  Three of us observed
them,  My wife and my brother's wife and myself agree that they were UFOs.
Because we never seen this close and this fast flying objects before.  Their
Phone Number: 0090 242 2424574  Their Address: Ataturk Cad. 37/1 07100
Antalya/Turkey

DR. ROGER LEIR REMOVES IMPLANT

Robert Collins reports that on August 17, 1998, the removal of an unknown
object from the upper portion of a man's thumb was accomplished.  He'd had a
few suggestive experiences, including an extensive sighting of three UFOs with
another witness.  But he doesn't remember any abductions, and his object was
discovered by accident.  In the past, I have been concerned that the chain of
evidence might not be rock-solid to an outsider if objects were left in
unsealed containers and so forth.  This time, all sealing and unsealing has
been done before four witnesses on videotape, and the object has been
contained using security tape that cannot be removed without evidence being
left behind.  So there can be no question that what is going to be placed
under study is what came out of the volunteer's hand.  It was an amazing,
deeply satisfying thing to actually see it come out.  The first surgeries I
saw in 1996 moved me so profoundly that I cried.  I am deeply concerned that
they have been placed in our bodies without our consent.  I don't believe for
a moment that they can be explained away.  In fact, I think that even trying
to dismiss them is the height of irresponsibility.  To introduce something
into somebody's body like this is assault,  pure and simple.  And it doesn't
matter if it was done by aliens or humans, the ethical situation is the same.
Understand, I don't have  any really strong evidence that the close encounter
situation is  harmful or dangerous, but the manner in which it manifests
itself suggests otherwise.  The situation keeps us passive.  Government
secrecy  and visitor secrecy might as well be two aspects of the same policy.
And every time a newspaper publishes some ill-informed  story debunking this
material, it is playing right into the hands of whoever doesn't want us to
take action on our own behalf.  The same is  true for science: when scientists
grudgingly admit that there might be hard UFO evidence and then in the same
breath say that there is no "credible evidence" of abductions. They are
insuring that contact will continue as it has, with the visitors holding all
the cards.  If they treated us with the kind of respect that suggests that
they value us at least somewhat as individuals, I wouldn't object to  them
being in control of the contact process.  But they aren't doing that.  This is
an intrusion, an invasion, and we are victims.  All I know is this: "they" are
very secretive, and they are  putting unknown objects into our bodies.  If
There is only one sane response: whenever possible, take the  implants out.
Thanks to Robert Collins

SIGHTING REPORTS

When sightings reports are received we attempt to verify them when possible.
Better cases are investigated by Field Investigators when they are available
and live within driving distance of the witness.  Frequently investigation
requires traveling hundreds of miles, taking time off from work, setting
appointments with numerous phone calls, conducting the actual investigation
and writing up the investigation reports.  These investigations are
accomplished without payment from any source.  For example, my phone bill runs
several hundred dollars a month.  Investigators do this work as volunteers,
because they feel it is important to the well being of America and indeed all
the people of Earth.  You can be assistance to us by letting me guide you to
some excellent real estate people in you area.

FREE REAL ESTATE RELOCATION SERVICES:

As a special aid to our readers, we can help you at no cost to you with free
relocation information and consulting services.  If your planning to sell or
buy a home or property and would like a top flight real estate agent from the
top companies give me a call at 609 654-0020 or e-mail me at
Majorstar@aol.com.

Filer's Files Copyright 1998 by MUFON EASTERN DIRECTOR all rights reserved.
Readers may post items from the Files on their websites or in newsgroups
provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the
date of issue in which the item first appeared.

Send your letters to George A. Filer at Majorstar@aol.com.  If you wish to
keep your name confidential please so state in your E-mails.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 11

                        Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:36:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:08:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs
>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:37:31 PDT

<snip>

>Rob,

>Is there any thinking on why the agriglyphs seem to appear only in
>crops of the grass varieties? In Asia would they appear in the big
>grass (bamboo), and isn't corn or maize a grass?
>I do not recall reading of them appearing in pea or potato crops, for
>example.

>Leanne

Leanne,

According to this report from 1992:

http://www.westworld.com/~gnudarve/ufo/nccr92.txt,

It seems that wheat and grass are absolutely the most dominating
crop being affected by agriglyphs.

It also seems that corn/maize isn't classified as a grass.


Regards
AWS





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 11

                        Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:30:49 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 19:43:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs


> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:24:21 -0400 (EDT)
> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

Hi Bob,

Re. 'Historical circles'

>Agreed.  There may be earlier descriptions, but the first
>"crop circle" I know about is the one I saw in the mid 60s.

I don't doubt that. The circles 'phenomenon' certainly has a
history, pre-Doug & Dave. Unfortunately in the twenty-three
years since then, despite all the 'expert' attention we aren't
any closer to understanding it.

>This was not in a cultivated crop, but in a natural marshy
>area, and the reeds were bent but not broken in a perfectly
>circular pattern about 30 feet in diameter.

This 'bent not broken' idea as a standard of 'genuineness' is a
fallacy anyway, but it makes sense that moist reeds wouldn't be
broken. That would only happen if they were dry and brittle, and
depends on how they were flattened, even if manually.

>The people who found it associated it with a UFO landing the
>night before, but no one actually saw a UFO during their
>unusual experience, just a very bright light like a spotlight
>which shined in their windows. Their dogs also were completely
>terrifed by whatever it was outside.

Interesting. But were the dogs really 'terrified' or just
barking? I've met many 'terrified' farm dogs in my time, who
were more likely frustrated that they couldn't take a bite out
of my leg.

>I've been asked, but simply don't recall other details like
>whether the swirling was deosil or widdershins.

Having expended all my intuition on looking up 'deosil'
(deasil), I am left wondering how it would be possible to tell.
Wouldn't it depend on which way one is facing? Unless, that is,
the whole universe revolves around the person looking, which is
common in cerealogy.

Rob







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   Sep > Sep 11

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 98 10:01:00 PDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:13:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:56:21 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 98 09:48:38 PDT

Hi, Dennis,

>No, Jerry, it's only a canard in your book. The issue of whether
>or not Marcel actually encountered bodies at Roswell is germane
>and fundamental to ufology as a whole and Roswell in particular.

>My dictionary defines canard as "an unfounded or false,
>deliberately misleading story." As you well know, or should, I
>am making no deliberate, misleading statements about Marcel.
>What I am doing is asking you why you think he wasn't invited to
>the first party, with the bodies, but was then invited to the
>second party, with no bodies, which occasioned a press release.
>Don't have a clue, do you? Can't you at least give us a good
>canard?


Maybe I'm not as swift as you, Dennis, but your obsession with
this question baffles me. How do you know what Marcel would have
been told about and what he wouldn't have been told about? Don't
have a clue, do you? Then stop acting as if you're so full of
them that the rest of us must drop jaws and bow and scrape in
the pressence of your manifestly superior wisdom.

>>As we have discussed privately, Dennis, all sorts of
>>ambiguities, contradictions, and unanswered questions are likely
>>to hover over the Roswell events because nobody conducted an
>>investigation at the time of its occurrence. When the
>>investigation began three decades later, people were dead, or
>>their memories were getting foggy.. The only hope for the truth,
>>whatever it may be, is if one day whoever possesses the official
>>documents decides to release them. Their nonappearance after all
>>this time is, at the very least, curious to all but, it seems,
>>Air Force apologists.

>Yes, but what you're saying is that the truth can only go one
>way, your way. What if there are no official documents to
>release? But that would make me an AF apologist, wouldn't it?

It strikes me that of the two of us, you're the one more
emotionally tied to a position. You _know_ that nothing out of
the ordinary happened at Roswell. I know no such thing. Roswell
continues to baffle me. I find problems with every scenario, ET
or non-ET. I have tried to urge you to be more tolerant of the
ambiguity inherent in the circumstances surrounding Roswell, but
apparently you can't handle that. I also have no trouble
suspecting that on some at least unconscious level you and
anti-Roswell types _hope_ there are no official documents.

>>It may as well note here the curious silence on the part of the
>>anti-Roswell crowd concerning Roswell adjutant Patrick
>>Saunders's statement, made to many friends and family members in
>>writing before his death, that Randle and Schmitt's account of
>>what happened is essentially correct.. I guess you guys are just
>>waiting to find your voice, and I have no doubt that soon you'll
>>be telling us he's just another of the liars whose good name --
>>like that of Jesse Marcel, Sr. -- awaits the inevitable
>>trashing. Speaking personally, though, I'd be more inclined to
>>take his word on it than yours, Martin Cannon's, or my own.

>Was it Saunders, literally on his death bed, who signed off on
>Randle/Schmitt's "UFO Crash at Roswell" as a true account? Odd,
>but then didn't Randle make numerous corrections to that book
>vis a vis Ragsdale, Dennis and others? So which account was
>Saunders confirming -- the one written before his death or the
>one written afterwards? Did he mean to affirm Ragsdale and
>Dennis? After all, both versions can't be right.

What Saunders meant, of course, is that Randle and Schmitt got
it essentially right: that a UFO and bodies were recovered in
July 1947 in New Mexico. The presence of hoaxers here and there
among Roswell claimants does not invalidate the testimony of
honest informants, any more than the liars among UFO witnesses
generally disproves the existence of UFOs. Of course, by your
reasoning, if some scientist were to express the view that UFOs
represent ET visitation, you would accuse him of endorsing
Adamski and Meier, by this logic.

In any case, not being a fool, I am more inclined to take
Saunders's word than yours or the AF's -- or mine -- on the
matter. After all, he was there. I realize, of course, that to
the anti-Roswell polemicists this is no qualification at all, or
maybe even prima facie evidence that he is some species of
bald-faced liar.

>>I'll take your word for it that you're not an AF apologist, though
>>your weird defense of its use of bogus testimony in defense
>>of its dubious theories would cause any reasonable observer
>>to wonder.

>You don't have to take my word for anything. I said in the same
>or a subsequent post that I didn't accept the AF explanation,
>that it would have been more to the point to simply dismiss the
>accounts of Ragsdale, Anderson and Dennis at face value. To that
>list I would add Kaufmann, and possibly others. How far does the
>list expand? Who exaggerated what? I don't know. Do you?

You're continuing to evade the point. You tell us you "didn't
accept the AF explanation." So what? I never accused you of
having a doughnut for a brain, which one would have to possess
to believe it. Let me repeat: My point is that while you
routinely exoriate pro- Roswell ufologists for accepting bogus
testimony, no word of criticism passed your keyboard when the AF
did the same.

Instead you "explained" why the AF did so, implying that its
approach is understandable and employing a strange
rationalization in the process: that the AF, which in its
history has had no problem whatever accusing all sorts of UFO
witnesses of being liars, didn't want to call Anderson, et al.,
fabricators; therefore it chose to use their testimony as if it
actually referred to something that happened outside their
imaginations.

It's clear, at the least, that you hold pro-Roswell people to
one standard, their critics to another.

>I made no "weird defense of its use of bogus testimony."

See above.


>>>The only thing I'm apologetic for is trying to make sense of the
>>>hopelessly muddled Roswell scenario put out by Randle and
>>>others.

>>And the AF theories are a model of clarity, rationality, solid
>>evidence, and good sense?. Give us all a break.

>Compared to what? Given that the AF is the lying, deceitful
>bastards you seem to think they are by rote, would that make the
>best proposed Roswell scenario any better or saner by
>definition?

"By rote"? These two words, alas, serve to confirm my
darkest suspicions.

Incidentally, I don't "seem to think" the AF is thoroughly
untrustworthy on UFO matters. I do think this, absoutely;
no "seems to" about it. "Lying, deceitful bastards"
pretty much sums up my views.

Meantime, Dennis, a word or two of advice:
Better do some reading of UFO history, if you think ufologists
like me come to this conclusion "by rote." If you honestly
believe this -- and, if you do, the sound you hear is of my mind
in the throes of boggling -- no wonder you take the AF
pronouncements on Roswell to be akin to gospel truth.
And no wonder the phrase "AF apologist" comes to mind.
It would be unnatural, under the circumstances, if it didn't.

>I personally don't care what the AF has said or done.

_That's_ obvious.

>As a
>ufologist, I'm still waiting for someone on this side of the
>argument to give me a coherent picture of what supposedly took
>place at Roswell in 1947. So far I haven't seen one.

And I'm still waiting for the same from the anti-Roswell people.
So far I haven't seen one. Meantime, I am keeping an open mind.

Cheers,

Jerry Clark









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 11

                                     Re:

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:00:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:00:48 -0400
Subject: Re:

From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:35:34 EDT
To: updates@globalserve.net
Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs


>From: David Baker <davbak@globalnet.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs
>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:51:38 +0100

Dave,

Re. Historical circles.

>Rob and everyone,

>Isn't there a woodcut depicting a 'crop circle', with a devil or
>demon armed with a scythe, dating back a few hundred years? I've
>seen it as part of crop-circle researcher Mark Heywood's
>lecture, but can't remember much else about it.

More often than not the Mowing Devil pamphlet and its woodcut
illustration is referred to without much attention to the text.

So here it is, with the illustration attached as a .bmp:

THE MOWING-DEVIL:
OR, STRANGE NEWS OUT OF HARTFORD-SHIRE

Being a True Relation of a Farmer, who Bargaining with a Poor
Mower, about the Cutting down Three Half Acres of Oats: upon the
Mower's asking too much, the Farmer swore That the Devil should
Mow it rather than He. And so it fell out, that very Night, the
Crop of Oat shew'd as if it had been all of a Flame: but next
Morning appear'd so neatly mow'd by the Devil or some Infernal
Spirit, that no Mortal Man was able to do the like.

Also, How the said Oats ly now in the Field, and the Owner has
not Power to fetch them away.

Licensed, August 22, I678

Men may dally with Heaven, and criticize on Hell, as Wittily as
they please, but that there are really such places, the wise
Dispensations of Almighty Providence does not cease continually
to evince. For if by those accumulated circumstances which
generally induce us to the belief of anything beyond our senses,
we may reasonably gather that there are certainly such things as
DEVILS, we must necessarily conclude that these Devils have a
Hell: and as there is a Hell, there must be a Heaven, and
consequently a GOD: and so all the Duties of Christian Religion
as indispensable subsequents necessarily follow.

The first of which Propositions, this ensuing Narrative does not
a little help to Confirm.

For no longer ago, than within the compass of the present Month
of August, there hapned so unusual an Accident in Hartfordshire
as is not only the general Discourse, and admiration of the
whole County: but may for its Rarity challenge any other event,
which has for these many years been Product in any other County
whatsoever. The story thus.

In the said County lives a Rich industrious Farmer, who
perceiving a small Crop of his (of about three Half-Acres of
Land which he had sowed with Oats) to be Ripe and fit for
Gathering, sent to a poor Neighbour whom he knew worked commonly
in the Summer-time at Harvest Labour to agree with him about
Mowing or Cutting the said Oats down. The poor man as it
behoov'd Him endeavour'd to sell the Sweat of his Brows and
Marrow of his Bones at as dear a Rate as reasonably he might,
and therefore askt a good round Price for his Labour, which the
Farmer taking some exception at, bid him much more under the
usual Rate than the poor Man askt for it: So that some sharp
Words had past, when the Farmer told him he would Discourse with
him no more about it. Whereupon the honest Mower recollecting
with himself, that if he undertook not that little Spot of Work,
he might thereby lose much more business which the Farmer had to
imploy him in beside, ran after him, and told him, that, rather
than displease him, he would do it at what rate in Reason he
pleas'd: and as an instance of his willingness to serve him,
proposed to him a lower price, than he had Mowed for any time
this Year before. The irretated Farmer with a stern look, and
hasty gesture, told the poor man That the Devil himself should
Mow his Oats before he should have anything to do with them, and
upon this went his way, and left the sorrowful Yeoman, not a
little troubled that he had disoblig'd one in whose Power it lay
to do him many kindnesses.

But, however, in the happy series of an interrupted prosperity,
we may strut and plume our selves over the miserable
Indingencies of our necessitated Neighbours, yet there is a just
God above, who weighs us not by our Bags, nor measures us by our
Coffers: but l ooks upon all men indifferently, as the common
sons of Adam: so that he who carefully Officiates that rank or
Station wherein the Almighty has plac't him, tho' but a mean
one, is truly more worthy the Estimation of all men, then he who
is prefer'd to superior dignities, and abuses them: And what
greater abuse than the contempt of Men below him: the relief of
whose common necessities is none of the least Conditions whereby
he holds all his Good things: which when that Tenure is
forfeited by his default, he may justly expect some Judgement to
ensue: or else that those riches whereby he prides himself so
extravagantly may shortly be taken from him.

We will not attempt to fathom the cause, or reason of,
Preternatural events: but certain we are, as the most Credible
and General Relation can inform us, that same night this poor
Mower and Farmer parted, his Field of Oats was publickly beheld
by several Passengers to be all of a Flame, and so continued for
some space, to the great consternation of those that beheld it.

Which strange news being by several carried to the Farmer next
morning, could not but give him a great curiosity to go and see
what was become of his Crop of Oats, which he could not imagine,
but what was totally devour'd by those ravenous Flames which
were observed to be so long resident on his Acre and a half of
Ground.

Certainly a reflection on his sudden and indiscreet expression
(That the Devil should Mowe his Oats before the poor Man should
have anything to do with them) could not but on this occasion
come into his Memory. For if we will but allow our selves so
much leisure, to consider how many hits of providence go to the
production of one Crop of Corn, such as the aptitude of the
Soyl, the Seasonableness of Showers, Nourishing Sol-stices and
Salubreous Winds, etc., we should rather welcome Maturity with
Devout Acknowledgements than prevent our gathering of it by
profuse wishes.

But not to keep the curious Reader any longer in suspense, the
inquisitive Farmer no sooner arriv'd at the place where his Oats
grew, but to his admiration he found the Crop was cut down ready
to his hands; and [as] if the Devil had a mind to shew his
dexterity in the art of Husbandry, and scorn'd to mow them after
the usual manner, he cut them in round circles, and plac't every
straw with that exactness that it would have taken up above an
Age for any Man to perform what he did that one night: And the
man that owns them is as yet afraid to remove them.

FINIS

Rob





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   Sep > Sep 12

                        Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 13:02:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 06:41:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs
>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:37:31 PDT

Leanne,

>Rob,

>Is there any thinking on why the agriglyphs seem to appear only in
>crops of the grass varieties? In Asia would they appear in the big
>grass (bamboo), and isn't corn or maize a grass?

There's not much thinking that I've noticed; the phenomenon
seems to me to be very much concentrated on image - both of the
crop patterns themselves and the 'experts' pontificating about
them.

As far as agriglyphs - in the sense of 'recognisable, sculpted'
patterns in crops - are concerned, I suggest a simple reason:
That grasses are the preferred medium. It would seem to me to be
wasted effort to bang out, say, a seven-fold fractal design in a
crop that couldn't hold it at its best, which is why we rarely,
if ever, see such things in anything other than wheat or barley.

From an English circlemaker's perspective it's a matter of
timing. The oilseed rape (Canola) flowers around mid-April, when
it's still very wet. Every year we find a few comparatively
simple designs but very much in accord with the medium, a
thick-stemmed, sinuous plant. Then it's barley season, and then,
from June until August, wheat. After that it's not uncommon to
see the occasional circle in the only viable medium left, maize
(a grass) and linseed. But these are rare. The season has ended
by then except for those who have yet to learn to restrain their
compulsion -- any formation in linseed, no matter how ambitious,
is a rather pathetic sight.

As for simple circles, they are apparently seen in a much wider
range of plants (including peas and potatoes), notably rice.
Even snow (and ice), although a correlation between these and
'crop' circles is far from established, to put it mildly.

Hope this helps.

Rob








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 12

             Re: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story

From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:24:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 06:14:08 -0400
Subject: Re: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story
>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:38:44 PDT

>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:20:28 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story

>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:59:57 +0200
>From: Anatoly Kutovoy <kutovoj@MAIL.IAE.LT>
>Subject: Shaitan Mazar. Real story.
>To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

>The Devil's Grave. Almost Fantastic Story.

>By Nikolay Subbotin,
>Director RUFORS (Russian UFO Research Station)

<snip>

>Dear List,

>For me this sounds more like a phantasy story but I would sure
>like to see some real evidence.

>Has anybody seen any satellite photography of the site?

<snip>

>Leanne Martin
>Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia

Leanne -- I asked the same question a couple of weeks
back when this story first came to my attention.
There was a suggestion then that such satellite photos did exist.
However, my requests re the same have gone unanswered.

My belief --it's a nice little, old-fashioned sci-fi story.

(Though I could check out terraserver.com :))

Brian







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 12

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:06:51 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 06:36:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:16:18 -0500 (CDT)
>Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 01:22:37 -0400
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 19:53:49 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>David

>I'm curious about some of your assumptions, which you seem to
>think are carved in granite, or HARD EVIDENCE, as you put it.

We're curious about whether Dennis has any evidence, hard or
otherwise, to support anything at all in his post. As you read
through it, you see a lot of naysaying, a lot of rampant
speculation, a lot of dodging of my points and going off on
evasive, often irrational tangents instead, but evidence? There
is none, just a Stacy smokescreen. As usual the demands for
good evidence are always one-sided, the Debunker Double Standard
at work.

Also notice that Kal Korff never responded and Dennis Stacy is
doing the heavy hitting instead. More curiousness. And
speaking of assumptions carved in granite, maybe it's high time
to demand that Mogul lovers like Korff or Stacy provide us with
some really good evidence that a bunch of balloons explains
Roswell. How about even one document from Mogul of a recovery
at Brazel's place, or a report written from Roswell to AAF
headquarters explaining what happened, or a debris analysis
report from Wright Field? Curiously nobody can produce anything
like that. Every bit of such documentation is missing. Without
such things, the case for Mogul reduces to strictly a few
anecdotal old memories (which Stacy will again remind us all
below he considers to not be worth much), some obvious lying,
and some photos from Fort Worth showing some nondescript balloon
debris that could have come from anywhere. In other words, it's
very weak and circumstantial.

>>Unlike Mr. Kal Korff, I do have the following HARD EVIDENCE
>>strongly suggesting deception by Ramey in Fort Worth:

>>* 1947 newspaper stories indicating that Ramey had changed the
>>crashed disk press release story within about an hour of it
>>going on the wire, Ramey stating at this time that he thought it
>>was the remains of a weather balloon and radar target. This was
>>about an entire hour BEFORE Mr. J. B. Johnson showed up in
>>Ramey's office to take pictures, about 2 hours before Irving
>>Newton was called in to identify the debris, and most
>>astoundingly, before Marcel's plane even arrived in Fort Worth.

>Surely, you admit that Ramey had access to a telephone. He
>wouldn't have had to wait for a plane to land, in other words,
>if someone on the ground in Roswell had already concluded that a
>huge mistake had been made. Plans to hold a press briefing in
>Ft. Worth could have been already underway and, logically, they
>would have been, the latter being more accessible to the press
>than remote Roswell. What's so "astounding"?

What's so astounding is that there is no evidence, hard or
otherwise, to support Stacy's scenario. Why should anyone take
it seriously? ("Oops," says Col. Blanchard back in Roswell. "I
just realized that tinfoil, balsa wood, rubber, and Scotch tape
isn't from a flying disk, but must be some sort of weather
balloon. Boy did I screw up.  Better ring up the General and
warn him.")

In stark contrast, there are various newspaper quotes in which
Ramey says that he had just personally viewed the crash material
(even though Marcel hadn't gotten there yet). He then either
gave a physical description, or in two newspaper stories
explicitly stated that he thought what he saw was a weather
balloon with a radar target. This was all before reporter J.B.
Johnson was admitted to his office to take pictures about 2
hours after the press release went out over the wire.

>* At the same time, Ramey stating originally that the
>tinfoil-composed object was 25 feet across. Does anybody see
>anything remotely close to 25 feet across in the photos? Do you
>supposed Ramey made this up?

>Again, I can't follow your reasoning. So what?

So what? Ramey says the tinfoil covered device is 25 feet across
but there is nothing in the photos (or on Mogul) that was
anything like that. The actual model radar reflectors on Mogul
were only 4 feet across. Moreover, the debris wasn't even in
Fort Worth yet. So where did Ramey come up with 25 feet?

>Would you expect him to have something 25 feet across hauled
>into his office for pictures?

Well Stacy really doesn't get it, does he? In fact, what the
hell is he talking about anyway? There was nothing on the Mogul
balloons that fit Ramey's description of a 25 foot tinfoil
device. So how exactly was he suppose to haul it into his office
for pictures if it never existed?

All I see here is debunkers refusing to acknowledge gross
inconsistencies in the official story. Ramey starts out telling
the press it's 25 feet across, but then displays a small
quantity of radar target debris in his office from a radar
target known to be constructed only 4 feet across when intact.
Ironically, while Stacy seems to be claiming that Ramey left a
whole bunch of debris outside his office, this also disagrees
with two other versions of the official story. Remember Sheridan
Cavitt's statement that the so-called balloon crash was no
bigger than his living room and easily fit into one car? Or how
about Brazel's statement that he rolled the rubber and sticks
into two small bundles? Both statements are taken as gospel
truth by Mogul believers. These small bundles, according to the
Air Force in the present day,, were supposedly the entirety of
what Marcel supposedly brought to Fort Worth and were FULLY
displayed in Ramey's office.

Ramey can't have his 25 feet across if you also accept Brazel
saying everything was in two small bundles, the largest being 8
inches thick and 3 feet long, and Cavitt saying they threw
everything into the back seat of a car. And there are other
serious inconsistencies in these various versions of the
so-called balloon story.

>Wouldn't they have to considerably widen a door or knock down a
wall to accommodate same?

(Roll eyes to heavens. Is the man really this dense?) Only if it
were a solid saucer, Dennis. Any part of a Mogul was completely
collapsible. You know Dennis, thingees like rubber balloons,
tinfoil, twine, Scotch tape, broken sticks, etc. But it's all
completely academic anyway, since there was no tinfoil objects
on Mogul balloons 25 feet across.

>Furthermore, who's to say the quote was accurate? I've been
>quoted in the past both by my local newspaper and Newsweek, and
>misquoted at that in both instances.

Gee, that could never happen to someone like Marcel, could it
Dennis? He must be a liar.

But back to the point at hand. ABC News at 10:00 that evening
had Army spokespeople repeating Ramey's original statement, to
wit: "Other army officials say that further information
indicates that the object had a diameter of 20 to 25 feet." This
was many hours after Ramey was originally quoted during a phone
call to the Pentagon press office. That original quote from
Ramey, BTW, was in the Washington Post, which likely had a
correspondent permanently stationed there at the Pentagon.

Here's another quote from the UP: "AAF spokesmen would say only
that the 'saucer' was a flimsily-constructed, kite-like object
measuring about 25 feet in diameter and covered with a material
resembling tinfoil."

And yet another quote from the AP said: "Later the AAF said that
further information indicated that the object would have had a
diameter of about 20 to 25 feet if reconstructed." (How did they
come to that conclusion, especially if the radar targets were
only 4 feet across?)

So apparently Ramey wasn't misquoted by the press. The original
official story given to the press, no matter who it came from,
was that the foil kite or "saucer" was 20 - 25 feet across, and
that continued late into the day. But they never did get the
official story straight. In the surviving FBI telegram the
figure of 20 feet is again used, but this time applied to a
SINGULAR balloon, instead of the radar target. However, none of
the rubber balloons on Mogul would look anything like 20 feet
across when recovered. They might inflate to 20 feet high in the
atmosphere, but that isn't what Ramey would see. He would see a
deflated balloon only a few feet across even if intact.
Furthermore, based on statements and demonstrations of Mogul
engineer Charles Moore, Ramey shouldn't have even seen that. Any
neoprene balloon debris should have been reduced to blackened
flakes. Brazel claimed he found nothing but "rubber strips" and
nothing like those other two weather balloons he had previously
found. Again the description of 20 to 25 feet makes no sense, is
incompatible with what is shown in the photos, and is
incompatible with Brazel's statements. As usual, these gross
discrepancies in the official story are ignored by Mogul
advocates.

>>* A 4-foot long stick in the Fort Worth photos that is too long
>>to agree with the testimony of Mac Brazel, Jesse Marcel, and
>>Robert Porter, all of whom placed the longest beam or stick at
>>three feet or less. The 4-foot stick could only have gotten
>>there by substitution. What's more, somebody involved with the
>>1995 A.F. Report (most likely Lt. McAndrew, who was responsible
>>for this portion of it) obviously noticed the discrepancy and
>>altered the photographic evidence to make it agree with the
>>testimony. When McAndrew turned the Fort Worth photos over to
>>CIA photoanalysts to determine stick length, the offending 4
>>foot stick was cropped down to three feet in the working
>>schematic and in the final calculation. (See Attach. 33 in the
>>Report)

>This looks like mountains out of mole hills to me.

The Air Force apparently didn't agree with you, because they
altered the length of the stick to make it conform to the
testimony. Why don't you take a look at the above referenced
Attachment and see for yourself. Or would it be to much to ask
of you to actually examine the evidence? It's more fun to play
naysayer, isn't it Dennis?

>Brazel or
>anyone else saying that the longest piece was only three feet
>long would have been making a judgment call at best (if
>accurately quoted).

Three feet would come up to your waist; four feet to your chest.
Or three feet is easily carried in your arms; four feet is a bit
of a stretch. It's pretty easy to distinguish one from the
other.  And we have the statements of Porter and Marcel as well.
Are all three supposed to have made the same mistake in judgment
or have been misquoted on this one point?

>You would also have to assume that he/they personally viewed
>every piece of debris in what was supposed to have been a huge
>debris field.

Well, remember Dennis the official story given by Brazel later
that evening was that he, Marcel, and the "man in plain clothes"
(Cavitt) gathered up every scrap of it, then tried to reassemble
it into something that made sense (i.e., carefully examined it)
all before Marcel (and Cavitt) returned to the base. That was
supposed to be ALL of it. Read the A.F. Report. There was no
subsequent recovery operation, according to them. That was all
the lying invention of greedy, exaggerating Roswell authors
trying to make a buck.

So first we have Brazel's statement in the RDR. Then we have
Marcel's in several different interviews that none of the sticks
or beams exceeded three feet in length, and most were much
shorter. Then there were the statements of Robert Porter, who
handled the wrapped debris samples transported from Roswell to
Fort Worth. This supposedly was what was later displayed in
Ramey's office since there was wrapping paper on the floor (the
A.F. even quotes Porter to try to bolster its case). Porter
stated the largest package he handled was triangular and 2-1/2
to 3 feet on a side.

Whether there was some larger stick out somewhere on the debris
field is utterly irrelevant, a typical, irrational Stacy red
herring. What in the blazes difference does it make? Was this
hypothetical Stacy stick magically teleported to Fort Worth for
photos thus bypassing the scrutiny of Brazel, Marcel and Porter?
The only debris that matters is what was seen and described by
the witnesses and what was ultimately brought to Fort Worth. All
descriptions place maximum stick length at 3 feet or under. Yet
there is that 4-foot stick in the photos. Where did it come
from? And why was the stick deliberately cropped and the length
reduced to 3 feet in the A.F./CIA photo analysis? Could it be to
make it conform to the statements of Brazel, Marcel, and Porter?

>While you're at it, you might hazard a guess as to why the
>internal support beams of a flying saucer (if that's what they
>were) would come apart in lengths universally less than three
>feet long.

Oh brother! And now off to the races with yet another Stacy
diversion.  Try an explosion, Dennis, as reported by Brazel.
Explosions have been known to reduce entire jetliners to small
fragments.

However, the actual question at hand was whether hard evidence
existed that there was a debris substitution in Fort Worth. Yes
there is. There is a four foot stick in the FW photos, but
nothing brought to FW was supposed to be that long according to
statements from three different people, two of whom were used by
the Air Force to make their case (Porter and Brazel; Marcel's
statements were NEVER used). Furthermore, someone on the Air
Force investigative team obviously noticed the discrepancy
between the testimony and the actual photographs. They thought
it important enough that they altered the actual photographic
evidence to make it conform to the statements of Porter and
Brazel. The 4-foot stick got chopped down to 3-feet, and their
handiwork is all there for the seeing in the Air Force Report.

>>* The remains of a radar target in the photos that don't even
>>add up to the remains of a single radar target, much less three
>>Mogul radar targets (see same photo analysis in A.F. Report --
>>there are only16 feet total of sticks vs. 48 feet for a full
>>ML-307 skeleton). A small pile of balloon debris that would
>>represent only a tiny fraction of the two dozen neoprene
>>balloons making up the alleged crashed Mogul. An FBI telegram
>>and statements from Ramey and Irving Newton that this was the
>>remains of a SINGULAR weather balloon and a SINGULAR radar
>>target, not a multi-balloon, multi-radar target Mogul.

>Again, I find your reasoning hard to follow.

You find MY reasoning hard to follow? Try your own.

>Are you suggesting
>that _everything_ recovered at this point should have been
>hauled into Ramey's office and dumped on the floor for
>photographs? This is absurd.

This isn't my reasoning or position, Dennis. This is the exact
position of the Air Force in their report. You have read the
report, haven't you? Remember those two small bundles of Brazel
and Cavitt's tiny balloon crash no bigger than his living room,
and Porter's description of a few small packages of wrapped
debris transported to Fort Worth? That was the entirety of what
was supposedly brought to Fort Worth and displayed. Everything
else was the lying invention of greedy Roswell authors trying to
make money off the gullible.

>And if the FBI telegram is so
>theoretically important, why would Ramey have had it in his hand
>during the picture session, when a reporter might have asked
>what it said?

Yet another patented Stacy irrational tangent, plus even more
evidence that Stacy is grossly ignorant about the details of the
case yet feels free to run off at the mouth about it. Who ever
said Ramey was holding the FBI telegram? Please, a name Dennis.
Or how about EVIDENCE other than Stacy assertions that this had
anything to do with the FBI?  And is Ramey now running the FBI
as well? Didn't the FBI send its own telegrams?

It was suggested in "The Roswell Incident" that Ramey was
holding a press release in his hand, not the FBI telegram for
crying out loud! (Does Stacy ever check out anything before
shooting wildly from the hip?)  But in reality, nobody actually
knows what was on the piece of paper. This was also the photo
shoot session with J. B. Johnson, and according to Johnson no
other reporters were there at the time. Nobody was going to be
firing hard questions at the general.

>Why wasn't it safely tucked away in a desk drawer?

Christ almighty! What bloody difference does it make? I've never seen anybody th
row out such a barrage of pointless irrelevancies like our dear Dennis Stacy.  S
uppose for the sake of argument that Johnson, a young guy at the time and fresh
out of the service, took notice of the piece of paper, wondered what was on it,
and screwed up the courage to question a general about it. Ramey could have thro
wn him a dirty look to shut him up, or simply said it was other official Army bu
siness, or said it was his laundry list. What was Johnson supposed to do if he d
idn't like or believe Ramey's response? Go up to the general and rip the piece o
f paper out of his hand? Write a news story that Ramey was concealing something?

>>* Rubber balloon debris that looks remarkably intact and pliant
>>for a balloon that was supposedly left in the hot sun for a full
>>month, where it should have deteriorated into small, brittle
>>flakes. In fact, it looks very much like a deflated, SINGULAR
>>weather balloon. Hmmmm.

>Do we know that it was hot sun for a full month (or was it three
>weeks?) during the time in question?

The original press release at Roswell said Brazel had found it
"sometime last week." Other AP press stories the next day
likewise stated that Brazel found it a few days before. Then we
have Brazel in his RDR interview giving the remarkably precise
date of June 14 for the original day of discovery (what a memory
this sheep rancher had!), but then adding that "he did not pay
much attention to it. But he did remark about what he had seen
and on **July 4**, he, his wife, Vernon and a daughter Betty
[sic], age 14, went back to the spot and gathered up quite a bit
of the debris."

So according to Brazel, although he found it mid-June, he did
nothing about it until July 4, or exactly one month after the
launch of Mogul #4, the supposed crash object. Therefore if you
are a Mogul believer and accept Brazel's statements as evidence
of a Mogul crash, the debris, including rubber balloons, was
lying in the sun for an entire month. That's straight out of
Brazel's mouth. After a month's exposure, the neoprene rubber
should have deteriorated into brittle flakes, not elastic
"rubber strips" which Brazel claims to have rolled up into a
bundle.

Of course, this disagrees almost completely with the official
AAF story in Fort Worth, put out by God only knows who on
Ramey's staff (though largely attributed to Marcel). In that
version reported by the AP, Brazel found the debris three weeks
ago scattered over **a square mile** of his ranch (not 200 yards
in Brazel's story or living room size in Cavitt's -- just more
of those gross inconsistencies in the official story). Somehow
he gathered that together, and "bundled the tinfoil and broken
wooden beams of the kite and the torn synthetic rubber remains
of the balloon together and rolled it under some brush." (But
that isn't what Brazel said, is it? He said he waited another
three weeks before gathering it up with his family.) Then when
he finds out about the flying discs Saturday night ( July 5) in
Corona, he "hurried home, dug up the remnants of the kite and
balloon on Sunday" and then headed to Roswell the next morning,
somehow forgetting to bring along those two small bundles he had
just gone way out of his way (8 miles from his ranch house,
according to Brazel) to "dig up." Why didn't he just throw them
in the back of his truck so he could immediately show what he
had found, instead of dragging Marcel and Cavitt back to his
ranch to collect them?

These various official versions of when Brazel found the alleged
debris, when he recovered it, and the area over which it was
scattered are wildly inconsistent with one another. And Brazel's
descriptions of the rubber debris are inconsistent with what its
condition should have been after a month. But all this is
brushed under Ramey's carpet by the debunkers, and instead we
get statements that ALL of this testimony is consistent with
what was eventually photographed in Fort Worth.

>>* No mention of any odor to any of the debris by any witness who
>>may have come in close contact with it BEFORE Fort Worth. In
>>particular, nobody mentioned anything about the acrid smell of
>>old neoprene rubber weather balloons left in the sun to rot. The
>>very first mention that there was such an odor was by Johnson,
>>who noticed it when he came into Ramey's office. This was AFTER
>>both Marcel and Dubose claimed that Ramey swapped in a
>>substitute balloon for the real debris.

>But then they would have come into contact in the open air, with
>wind blowing, which is quite a bit different environment than
>the confines of a closed (perhaps un-airconditioned) room, isn't it?

Boy, who can argue with such incredible reasoning like that?

Marcel brought it home with him, didn't he, and laid it out in
his kitchen? Is that confined enough for you? . As for this
typically irrelevant Stacy nonsense about air conditioning, if a
general's office wasn't air-conditioned, what chance was there
that Marcel's home would be? I have questioned Marcel Jr. about
any odors, and he says he can't recall any. Marcel Sr. certainly
never mentioned odors in multiple interviews despite extensive
contact with the debris. Cavitt claims to have picked up balloon
debris, and then spent hours in the confines of a hot vehicle
transporting it back to base. Again, he never a mentioned any
smell (or even the presence of any rubber debris of any kind).
Bessy Schreiber claims to have spent a day helping her father
pick up the pieces (again in early July). That's a lot of close
contact. She describes no smell nor any rubber balloon debris
matching that of the alleged crashed Mogul (instead she
describes a rubber-like foil).  Mac Brazel didn't mention smell
either when interviewed by the RDR, despite spelling out other
details of the alleged rubber debris. Robert Porter handled the
wrapped packages. He travelled with them for two hours in the
confines of a small B-29 cabin. Again, no mention of any smell.
Even wrapped in paper, the acrid smell should have penetrated.

But then photographer Johnson walks into Ramey's office and the
very first thing he notices his the acrid smell of the rubber.
He wonders why the devil Ramey would have such a smelly thing in
his office instead of displaying it out in some hangar where
they normally displayed crash debris.

>This assumes that all witnesses were asked about an odor or
>chose to volunteer such information.

Unpleasant odors form very vivid memories. Eyewitnesses at
airplane crash sites or similar situations where there are very
unpleasant, acrid smells of burned material, rotting bodies,
etc., generally volunteer this memory of unpleasant or noxious
smell without being asked, just like photographer Johnson did.
It's the thing that usually sticks out most in their memory.
Yet, nobody but nobody who was in contact with the debris before
Fort Worth has ever mentioned anything about an odor. And in Dr.
Marcel's case, I specifically asked him in case it slipped his
mind to mention it despite being interviewed a thousand times in
the last 20 years. He has no memory of any odor.

>>* Newspaper stories the morning of July 8 (e.g., Roswell Morning
>>Dispatch), with one of Ramey's top officers, Col. John D. Ryan,
>>the Fort Worth base operations officer (and a future A.F. Chief
>>of Staff), stating he thought radar targets might account for
>>the flying saucer reports. Clearly this explanation for the
>>flying saucers was in Ramey's inner circle the day BEFORE the
>>crashed disk press release, plenty of time to have cooked up a
>>weather- balloon cover story if necessary.

>So what's so sinister? This is a perfectly innocent and
>"logical" statement to make, so far as the military was
>concerned at the time.

What's so "logical" or "innocent" about it? Barely a week
earlier, Gen. Ramey and his intelligence chief, Col. Alfred
Kalberer, were proffering misidentification of jet airplanes
(not slow-moving radar targets) to account for the reports of
fast-moving disks. [Roswell Morning Dispatch, July 1].  Both
Ramey and Kalberer were very aware of the Arnold sighting, since
they specifically referred to it and scoffed at the suggestion
that there were any aircraft that could move or maneuver at
supersonic speed.

A week later, all that changed. Suddenly sluggish radar
reflectors became the official explanation. First the
Circleville, Ohio radar reflector got national coverage on July
6. The next day Ryan, Ramey's op officer at Fort Worth (and a
future AF Chief of Staff), was now suggesting radar reflectors
account for the flying saucers (not jet planes). Then the day
after that, a radar reflector "coincidentally" shows up in
Ramey's office and is used to explain the crashed disk press
release. And the day after that, a nationwide Army/Navy
debunking campaign got started, in which radar targets (not jet
planes) became the univeral explanation for ALL the flying disc
reports. This looks very suspiciously like the progression of a
military cover story as it evolved over a period of
several.days.

>>* Newspaper stories on July 9, stating that the Army and Navy
>>had embarked on a campaign to debunk the saucers. There were
>>several staged Army or Navy weather balloon demonstrations in
>>the days following (one of them being at Alamogordo on July 9),
>>in which radar targets (including Mogul style ML-307 radar
>>targets) or more commonly used radiosonde weather balloons were
>>trotted out and used to explain all of the nationwide rash of
>>flying saucer reports. I hope to have the photos and newstories
>>up on Jean van Gemert Website soon.

>I look forward to seeing same.

Please also note that today debunkers are claiming that radar
targets were hardly ever used back in 1947, therefore the radar
target displayed by Ramey had to come from Mogul. But this is
the exact opposite of what the Army and Navy were saying in
1947. Back then they were claiming that radar targets were
widely used by both the military and civilian weather services,
and they were probably right. Even Irving Newton was quoted in
1947 as saying that the radar target he saw in Ramey's office
could have come from any of 80 different weather stations that
used them. There were many places Ramey could have obtained his
radar target and there is nothing in the debris he displayed
that clearly links his radar target to Mogul, nothing at all.

There's more to this. To try to bolster its case, the A.F. used
one of those little anecdotes based on 50-year-old memories that
they and Dennis Stacy so decry when it point to something quite
different than a balloon -- the ole Debunker Double Standard at
work again. They quote from Col Trakowski, the Mogul Project
Officer, that he got a call from Col. Duffy, his predecessor at
Mogul. Duffy allegedly told him that some man from New Mexico
had flown in some debris for him to examine at Wright Field
later that night. Trakowski claims Duffy told him it looked just
like that stuff they were using at Mogul. Trakowski also added
that he thought Duffy had written some letters to Robert Todd
about it.

When I first read this I asked myself why didn't the A.F. use
the Duffy letters if they existed to corroborate this story?
Charles Moore finally revealed the contents of these letters in
his Roswell debunking book. There were indeed two letters, but
what Duffy essentially said was that he was shown totally
nondescript, generic weather equipment whose origin he could not
ascertain. In the second letter he said he wasn't even sure if
it was weather equipment. Instead of including those letters,
which obviously lent no direct support to Mogul, the A.F. spun
the Trakowski anecdote into proof positive that Marcel had found
a Mogul.  That's how propaganda works. But what would you
expect? The A.F. investigators were counterintelligence agents,
not academic historians.

>>* No note or indication of any sort in Jesse Marcel's subsequent
>>military record of him screwing up a balloon identification and
>>nationally embarrassing the Air Force from Roswell to the
>>Pentagon. On the contrary, Marcel receiving recommendations for
>>promotion to Lt. Col in the Reserve from both Blanchard and
>>Dubose (acting on behalf of Ramey as his Chief of Staff) just
>>four months after Roswell. Col. Blanchard's evaluation of Marcel
>>the following April, which covered the period of the Roswell
>>events, gave Marcel his HIGHEST numerical rating ever, placing
>>him well-within the "Superior" range. Col. Dubose endorsed this
>>evaluation, noting no negatives. When Marcel was transferred to
>>higher intelligence work (how did he manage that?) a year after
>>Roswell, Col. Ryan (remember him?) called Marcel's record "most
>>outstanding" and "most exemplary." But best yet, Gen. Ramey
>>likewise called Marcel "outstanding," protested his transfer
>>(saying he had nobody to replace him), and finished by saying he
>>thought Marcel was definitely command officer material based on
>>his past performance. How exactly did Marcel finagle such praise
>>from people like Ramey, Ryan, Dubose and Blanchard (all of whom
>>finished as USAF generals) if he supposedly so badly screwed up
>>and embarrassed himself?

>No note in Marcel's record, either, that he obviously violated
>existing security procedures by stopping by his home with the
>debris before reporting to his commanding officer.

Yet another Stacy tangent, since he doesn't want to address the
central point. What existing security procedures were those if
flying saucers didn't exist then or now? Could you show us a
copy of these alleged official security procedures? And even if
Marcel did violate some existing security procedure, could you
please provide us with some sort of EVIDENCE that some superior
officer like Col. Blanchard or Gen. Ramey knew about it, and
therefore there would be an actual reason for this to be noted
somewhere in his record.

>Wouldn't you consider that a breach of conduct on the part of
>an intelligence officer?

What difference would it make? Did his family blab to the press
about it at the time? Did Col. Blanchard or Gen. Ramey or anyone
else know about it?

>No indication, either, that Marcel and Cavitt thought
>that what they had retrieved from the Foster ranch warranted
>waking up Blanchard in the middle of the night.

How does Dennis Stacy know this? Marcel never mentioned when he
first spoke to Blanchard, but of course Dennis Stacy knows.
Cavitt claims to have washed his hands of the whole affair once
he got back to base. But Cavitt's story was also blatantly a lie
from beginning to end. Cavitt claimed he never went out with
Marcel or even met Mac Brazel, instead somehow retrieving his
tiny balloon crash no bigger than his living room from the
middle of nowhere with his assistant Rickett. Then Cavitt
claimed he returned to Roswell, handed the debris over to
Marcel, and had nothing to do with it after that. This story was
completely contradicted by Brazel, Marcel, Rickett, A.F.
accounts of the day, and ironically even the current A.F. story
with their "giant" Mogul crash complete with "purple flower
tape." Cavitt, even after being coached, said that the claims of
"alien hieroglyphics" were the lying invention of Roswell
authors out to make a buck, because he didn't see anything like
that.

Cavitt has also claimed in the past to never being at Roswell at
the time or involved in any way. When interviewed by the A.F.,
he is suddenly involved and there, but didn't even stay
consistent as to when he arrived. At one point he says he didn't
get to Roswell until the end of June or early July, being back
East in training before then. But in other part of his
interview, he claimed to be in Roswell with Rickett in late May
investigating a B-29 crash complete with body parts. The A.F.
played this little bit of anecdotal testimony up quite a bit,
dropping the obvious hint that reports of bodies were due to
this airplane crash or some other airplane crash. This was
resurrected again in their 1997 "Case Closed" report, with the
added absurd touch of crash dummies.

>Presumably, Cavitt simply went home and went to bed. Hmmm.

Hmmm what? Where is Stacy's EVIDENCE that "Cavitt simply went
home and went to bed?" Just more unsubstantiated smoke from
Stacy.

Cavitt is obviously lying. Nothing in his story adds up. He is a
retired A.F. counterintelligence officer interviewed by another
A.F. counterintelligence officer (Weaver) obviously reciting
what he thought the A.F. wanted to hear, which turned out to be
repeating the 1947 weather balloon cover story. NONE of his
testimony points to a Mogul crash. It fact, it contradicts a
Mogul crash. Why should we pay heed to anything Cavitt has to
say about what actually happened, other than to ask why he would
continue to lie about any of this? He claimed he didn't go out
with Marcel to retrieve his balloon and never met Brazel. He
said it was a tiny crash site. That's contradicted by absolutely
everybody. So why should we believe him when he says he found
nothing remarkable and dumped it all Marcel's lap when he got
back?

Strangely, people like Dennis Stacy don't hold Cavitt's
credibility up to even 1% of the scrutiny applied to someone
like Jesse Marcel, even though Marcel DOES have other people and
even some documentation backing up his story. Cavitt has
nothing. Even the A.F.'s Col. Weaver realized Cavitt's claim of
not going out with Marcel was inconsistent with all other
evidence. Read Weaver's interview with Cavitt very carefully.
Weaver tells Cavitt that he's going to type up an affidavit for
him to sign immediately after the interview.  Suddenly Cavitt is
now going out to Brazel's with both Marcel and Rickett. Then
Weaver has Cavitt allegedly stating that both Rickett and Marcel
were big story tellers. Cavitt accused Rickett of this in his
interview, but actually said the exact opposite about Marcel in
the body of the interview. In real life it turns out Cavitt and
Marcel were good friends, and one thing Cavitt refrained from
doing was bashing Jesse Marcel, though given many openings by
Weaver to do so. Instead we got statements from Cavitt that
Marcel was extremely intelligent, that he couldn't conceive of
any reason for Marcel to make up anything, and that if Marcel
said he saw "hieroglyphics" then it was so.

>Best as we can tell, the debris wasn't shown to Blanchard until
>the following morning.

We can't tell anything, since nobody mentioned when it was first
brought to Blanchard's attention. All I see here is Dennis Stacy
jumping to conclusions. You'll notice this is yet another
instance of Stacy making claims he can't back up with even one
piece of EVIDENCE.

>>* Marcel's next post being SAC Chief of a foreign technology
>>intelligence division. The SAC insisted they get him when the
>>A.F. Hdqtrs at the Pentagon asked to have him for another post
>>at the same time. How exactly did a so- called bungling
>>intelligence officer get such a technical intelligence post,
>>when he supposedly couldn't even identify simple balloon debris?

>You might as well ask (and explain yourself) similar questions
>regarding Blanchard's behavior.

Notice again how Dennis Stacy never directly addresses the
points that I raise, but always goes off diversionary tangents.

The question, Dennis, is how could Marcel get such a post if
your claim that he misidentified a common balloon had any merit?
Doesn't the Air Force run background checks on the people it
selects to be chief of intelligence divisions?

>Not only did he authorize a
>press release announcing the recovery of a flying disc (not
>small, shredded pieces of same)

The press release was completely nonspecific about the condition
of the "flying disc." Yet another pointless, irrelevant
diversion by Stacy from the central issues.

>without prior approval from higher headquarters,

And Dennis Stacy's EVIDENCE that he didn't have prior approval
from higher headquarters is what exactly? In contrast, there are
newspaper statements that Blanchard had contacted Ramey about
the find before shipping it to Fort Worth.

>but he also seems to have badly bungled the press release he
>did issue.

Or the press release was part of the "concentrated campaign" to
stop all the rumors, mentioned by the UP the next day. Issue a
vaguely worded press release announcing the recovery of a
crashed disk, not giving out any details. Then within an hour,
Ramey starts debunking it as a weather balloon, even claiming to
have seen it BEFORE Marcel even gets there.. Within three hours,
it is officially announced to be a weather balloon. The next
day, all the flying disks reports are debunked as
misidentifications of weather balloons. The whole point would
have been to hold the subject up to deliberate ridicule in the
press after briefly building it up. And we all know just how
effective ridicule is in suppressing serious public discussion
on UFOs.

>For example, he could only have gotten his information from
>debriefing Marcel and Cavitt the following morning, having
>simultaneously viewed the debris samples they would have shown him.

Leaving aside the question of when Blanchard first saw the
debris or met with Marcel (which we don't know), remember
Cavitt's protestations of innocence? He claimed he picked up the
balloon, gave it to Marcel in Roswell, and had nothing more to
do with it after that. How believable is that? The head of the
CIC at Roswell reports nothing to the base commander after being
sent out by him to investigate a rancher's claims of finding a
flying saucer.

>How, then, did he manage to issue a press release stating
>that a relatively intact flying disc had been hauled into a
>rancher's shed for storage?
 Where does the press release say that a "relatively intact
flying disc had been hauled into a rancher's shed for storage?"
As usual, Dennis Stacy is just shooting off at the mouth again
because the press release didn't say that at all.

What the press release ACTUALLY said was that the "rancher
stored the disc" (and that's ALL it said on the subject) and the
intelligence office later gained possession of "a disc" after
picking up "the disc" at the rancher's home. Note this is all
very vague, confusing, and lacking in any detail. A few hours
later, the version out of Fort Worth was that Brazel had earlier
thrown the gathered-up debris under some brush (after somehow
gathering it up after it was scattered over "a square mile"),
then "dug it up" after hearing about the flying saucers.

>No pro-Roswell researcher that I know has ever adequately
>addressed this question. May you be >the first.

What exact point am I supposed to be addressing since Stacy
can't even get the contents of the press release right? The
press release has it's puzzling aspects no matter what camp you
are in. Those who personally knew Blanchard say they is no way
in hell he would have issued the press release of a flying disk
if all he had seen was pieces of balloon material. And
statements from various people who spoke to Blanchard afterward
have him stating it was definitely NOT balloon material and he
had never seen stuff like it before in his life.

Walter Haut has offered up two theories based on his close
association with Blanchard as his PIO. One was that Blanchard
worked hard to maintain good relations with the locals since
there was a lot of friction between the base on the civilians.
In this theory, Blanchard issued the vaguely-worded press
release as an attempt to keep the local citizenry informed that
something was going on, but without revealing too much. If that
was the case, then Blanchard showed remarkable naivete if he
thought the story would remain locally confined.

The other major theory is that the press release was a
previously concocted cover story developed by those higher up
than Blanchard. Blanchard was ordered to release this
information (again lacking in detail so as to have lots of
wiggle room), with the intention of quickly debunking it in a
big way. That would be the public ridicule theory, as we all
know, a very effective way of killing public and press interest
in a subject. I've mentioned more about this, including the
statements of Col. Ryan the previous day about radar reflectors
and flying saucers, which seem to have led up to the
"coincidental" appearance of the radar reflector in Ramey's
office, followed by nationwide debunking of flying saucer
reports as radar reflectors and other weather balloons in the
days to follow.

>Note that Blanchard screwed up royally in this regard -- by
>issuing the press release without approval from higher
>headquarters -- but that he, too, was later promoted.

Again, how exactly does Dennis Stacy know that Blanchard didn't
have approval from higher headquarters, or may even have been
following orders to release it? In fact, that would explain why
nobody shows any evidence of having been reprimanded or having
their career hurt.

And what, AGAIN, does this have to do with people like Ramey
(and Ryan) calling Marcel "outstanding" and command officer
material a year later? Not only did the head intelligence
officer at Ramey's sensitive, elite nuclear bombing base
supposedly screw up a simple balloon ID and embarrass the whole
chain of command, Marcel allegedly compounded the problem
directly in front of Ramey. Remember? This was Irving Newton's
little anecdote of how Marcel supposedly behaved like a jackass
in Ramey's officer in front of Ramey, his officers, and civilian
reporters by "chasing" Newton around the office trying to get
him to change his opinion about "alien writing." Futhermore,
according to Newton, Ramey supposedly deliberately shamed Marcel
in front of the press. Yet after all this, Ramey calls him
outstanding, command officer stuff. Through Dubose, he
recommends him for promotion in the Reserve four months later.
The Air Force sounds like one neat outfit, so easily forgiving
junior officers for incompetence and indiscretion.  The generals
are all pussycats under those gruff exteriors.

Dennis Stacy, like all knee-jerk Roswell debunkers, always
dodges direct questions about this. Ramey's subsequent praise
for Marcel makes absolutely no sense under the Marcel debunking
scenario. Blanchard giving Marcel his highest numerical rating
ever after Roswell makes no sense, if Marcel had actually led
him down the garden path. Blanchard, Ramey, and Dubose
recommending Marcel for promotion in the Reserve makes no sense.
Marcel being recommissioned the following spring instead of
being let go makes no sense. Marcel being transferred to a post
a year later placing him in charge of SAC intelligence on
foreign air technology makes no sense if he couldn't even ID a
balloon. The SAC and A.F. Headquarters competing for Marcel's
services a year later makes no sense. Marcel's assignment to the
top secret Special Weapons Project afterwards makes no sense.

Come on Dennis, quit tap-dancing around the question. What part
of Marcel's subsequent record gives us any indication that
Marcel badly screwed up Roswell? The answer is none of it does.
It fact, it indicates exactly the opposite. And maybe, just
maybe, that's because not only didn't Marcel make a mess of
things, he actually did an excellent job and did exactly as he
was told. That's usually the reason senior officers praise and
reward their juniors -- not when they screw up and publicly
embarrass them.

>>* Ramey remaining involved in UFO investigations in some
>>capacity after Roswell and continuing to deceive the public. On
>>July 29, 1952, Ramey, now Air Defense Command Chief, was at Gen.
>>Samford's side during the infamous Washington press conference
>>in which they debunked the highly publicized Washington
>>radar/visual cases as being caused by thermal inversions. Gen.
>>Ramey then went on CBS-TV (see N.Y. Times, 8/4/52, p. 3) and
>>stated that although 20% of UFO cases studied were still
>>unidentified, there were no cases at all where anything could be
>>tracked consistently on radar or shown other evidence of being a
>>material object. (This was more of Ramey's deception, since
>>there were several good radar cases plus photographic evidence
>>in A.F. files which we now know of.) Ramey then suggested they
>>may be some form of unexplained natural phenomena and
>>constituted no threat. In other words, Ramey took the standard
>>A.F. debunking line when speaking to the public.

>So? If he was hell-bent on dissembling, why would he have
>mentioned the fact that one out of five cases were unexplained?

What difference does it make, if he then went on to claim that
there was no evidence of physical reality and they were probably
unexplained natural phenomena?  At the press conference the week
before, both he and Gen. Samford had already used the figure of
20%. (If you read Ruppelt, Blue Book placed the unknown
percentage even higher, at 27%).  In fact, if you go back to
Dec. 27, 1949, when the Air Force issued the Project Grudge
Report to try to counteract Donald Keyhoe's blockbuster article
just published in True Magazine, even then you find an admission
buried deep in one of the Appendices that they couldn't come up
with any solutions to 23% of the reports. As Ruppelt wrote in
his book about a reporter's assessment of the Grudge Report, it
was "quite impressive, but only in its ambiguousness, illogical
reasoning, and very apparent effort to write off all UFO reports
at any cost."

I suggest you also read Keyhoe's account of the Samford/Ramey
press conference in his 1953 book "Flying Saucers From Outer
Space," since it was taken directly from transcripts and is very
illuminating. Samford did most of the talking, and utilized
deliberate doubletalk, evasion, plus the above ambiguousness and
illogical reasoning to confuse the hell out of the press. In
fact, it sounds a lot like the tactics Dennis Stacy uses to
debunk.

>Why wouldn't he claim that only one or five per cent were
>unsolved?

Duhhh, because perhaps publicly the A.F. had already admitted to
much larger percentages. You write articles and books on the
history of UFOs and you don't know this?

>And if he said UFOs couldn't be "tracked consistently on radar"
>(your words)

No, not "my words," words used by the NY Times when they
reported Ramey's TV comments. Of course these were weasel words
by Ramey. He doesn't specifically deny that UFOs had been
tracked on radar, but he doesn't exactly admit it either. Given
Ramey's other comments, he was obviously trying to leave the
impression with the public that UFOs had no material reality and
were nothing to worry about.

>what's wrong with that?

Because he lied perhaps? The Washington radar/visuals had just
happened days before, and these were very solid radar returns,
nothing like those caused by heat inversions. Ramey knew that.
Air Intelligence Chief Samford had briefed the FBI on the
situation the same day as the Washington press conference he had
with Ramey. Samford told the FBI UFOs were "OBJECTS" not made by
us or any other nation, and that it was the opinion of some that
they were interplanetary in origin (though denying there was
anything to substantiate this theory). These were "objects"
[Samford's words] implying material reality. They were possibly
interplanetary, not made by us, and could certainly not be
explained away simply as "unexplained natural phenomena." Ramey
likely knew that as well. The Air Force told the press at the
Washington press conference that Samford and Ramey were their
top two UFO experts (as reported by the AP the next day), so its
rather hard to believe that Ramey and Samford weren't talking
with one another. There were also other good radar cases from
before, as Ramey surely knew if was one of the top two UFO
experts. Ruppelt mentions several of them in his book. NICAP's
"The UFO Evidence" also lists some. FBI memos mention other good
radar contacts, such as several over Oak Ridge in late 1949. One
of these was mentioned in the widely read LIFE Magazine article
of April 1952.

So we have the usual situation where the public was told one
thing, but internal intelligence memos, of which we are now
aware, gave a different story as to the actual thinking of the
Air Force. Samford told the FBI these were real objects, maybe
interplanetary; the same day he and Ramey told the press they
were natural phenomena. Then Ramey repeated this on CBS TV the
following week.

>Do you have hard
>evidence, excuse me, HARD EVIDENCE, that UFOs _can_ be tracked
>consistently on radar, or is that tracked only on occasion?

Stacy trying to change the subject yet again. See, how
convenient weasel words can be? Now Stacy is behaving just like
Gen. Ramey. Well, let's see. By saying UFOs can't be tracked
"consistently" on radar, or saying they are tracked "only on
occasion," we try to suggest that such trackings are meaningless
because of their relative rarity.  In that way, we can create
big smoke smoke screen that hides the obvious implications of
such radar tracking, namely that UFOs have material existence or
physical reality.

Using this wonderfully inane logic, we could similar dismiss the
physical existence of Stealth aircraft, meteors, or anything
else flying that can't be "consistently tracked" on radar, like
insects, birds, weather balloons, etc.

Continuing with this wonderful Stacy illogic, Ramey wasn't
lying, because he didn't specifically say that they had NEVER
tracked UFOs on radar, he just said they couldn't be tracked
"consistently."  However, for those not gifted with such
subtleties of logic possessed by Dennis Stacy, it was very
obvious that Ramey carefully chose his words to try to leave the
clear impression with the public that there was no evidence that
UFOs were physical objects. Whether you call this spinning, PR
work, propaganda, shading the truth, or whatever, it was a very
transparent attempt to deceive the public as to the actual
internal thinking of the Air Force, as better reflected in Gen.
Samford's secret briefing to the FBI at the same time.

It also does not address the original point I was making. Ramey
remained deeply involved in UFO investigations following
Roswell, as is evidenced by his participation in Washington
debunking 5 years later, where he was called one of the Air
Force's top two UFO experts. Now if Roswell was nothing but a
balloon and there is nothing to UFOs in general, why the hell
did Ramey stay involved with them and become one of the A.F.'s
top experts?

<snip>

[Korff said]
>>William, what _hard_evidence_ do you have that Roswell
>>"witnesses" were threatened with death, etc?

>>Well here's some _hard evidence._ We definitely have a quote
>>from Sheriff Wilcox published in the Albuquerque Journal the
>>next day. When pressed for more details on what the debris
>>looked like, the Journal reported that Wilcox "declined to
>>elaborate," explaining that he was "working with those fellows
>>at the base."

>>Although this obviously doesn't prove that Wilcox was threatened
>>with death, it does strongly indicate that anything Wilcox
>>stated to the press on July 8 was NOT independent testimony nor
>>necessarily freely given. By this time he was working with the
>>military, as he admitted. And it is right in line with
>>statements from two members of the Wilcox family that Wilcox had
>>been threatened.

>First, you start off saying that you have _hard evidence_, then
>in the next graf you say, "Although this obviously doesn't prove
>that Wilcox was threatened with death..." So which is it?

The contemporaneous newspaper quote is actual corroborative
documentation to all those nasty, unreliable 50-year-old
memories that Wilcox was not acting freely and may have in fact
have been coerced by the military. He wouldn't give further
information when asked by a reporter, because he was "working
with those fellows at the base." Got it?

>Hard evidence or circumstantial evidence,

Circumstantial evidence, if you will, but still considerably
more than either you or Korff seems to be providing, which
amounts to little more than naysaying and assertions of "facts"
not in evidence. The Wilcox quote would probably be considered
an important piece of documentation in a court case,
particularly when coupled with multiple witness testimony to
coercion and death threats.

>depending on nearly 50 year old memories and anecdotal accounts?

Yeah, yeah, the usual debunking line: "50 year old memories and
anecdotal accounts." We've also noticed how these same old
memories and anecdotal accounts seem to always be accepted
uncritically by people like Stacy or A.F. propagandists if they
feel they support a balloon crash, but never the other way
around. Why is that? A Debunking Double Standard perhaps?

Let's contrast this with the Trakowski/Duffy story I mentioned
above, which was likewise nothing but an anecdote based on one
50-year-old memory. Trakowski claimed Duffy told him that the
material shown to him looked like it came from Mogul. That was
supposed to be the clincher that this was Mogul. But where was
the corroboration? There was supposed to be written statement
from Duffy before he died which was readily available to the Air
Force. But curiously they never published it. Now it's obvious
why. Duffy in fact denied knowing the origins of the debris,
which he called generic weather equipment. The debunkers have
also failed to produce a single document from Wright Field which
speaks to the dispensation of the debris flown there, which
would have included its identification. Yet, seven weeks later
we have a document from Wright Field describing a very thorough
analysis by their labs of a patently obvious hoax disc. But
there is no similar document giving a comparable analysis of
Roswell debris, though it should exist. The Aug. 25 document
also curiously mentions the Mogul Project, even though this
document was classified at a lowly "Confidential" level. Mogul
simply wasn't all that secret.

>>In the case of Sheriff Wilcox, we have statements from family,
>>colleagues, a reporter, and a newspaper quote all indicating
>>that he had been leaned on in some way. The family says he was
>>threatened with death, family and friends say he was severely
>>demoralized afterwards, the reporter (Kellahin) says Wilcox
>>told him the military had warned him not to talk about it, and
>>then we have a newspaper quote (not a 50 year old memory or
>>anecdotal account) from some reporter who contacted Wilcox at
>>the time, in which Wilcox refuses to talk any further about
>>what Brazel recovered because he was "working with the fellows
>>at the base."

<snip>

>And what about Glenn
>Dennis's claims of death threats? How highly (ie, credible) do
>you rate those now?

Glenn Dennis had nobody to back his statements of being
threatened. That doesn't prove he lied about this, but he had no
independent corroboration. But with Wilcox and Brazel, we have
testimony and evidence from a number of sources suggesting
coercion. Thus threats against Wilcox and Brazel are much better
established than anyone else. I'm trying to hold the discussion
to the better data.  Dragging Glenn Dennis into the discussion
is yet another very typical Stacy diversion. Next Stacy will be
ranting about Ragsdale and Anderson. He's like a broken record.

<snip>

>>It is no different with Roswell. We do have the documented
>>statement direct from Wilcox indicating he was unable to speak
>>freely. That is right in line with testimony of the Wilcox
>>family and also AP reporter Jason Kellahin, who says he tried to
>>speak to Wilcox in Roswell later that day, but Wilcox was very
>>circumspect.

>So Wilcox was circumspect?

According to Kellahin's affidavit, "Wilcox said the military
indicated to him it would be best if he did not say anything."
That's what I meant by "circumspect." It's also very close to
Wilcox's quote in the 1947 Albuquerque Journal, i.e., historical
documentation for Kellahin's "50-year-old memory."

>Wouldn't that have been the case if
>the Army hadn't wanted Project Mogul made public?

Well let's see. According to Stacy, on Monday, Wednesday, and
Friday Roswell base issues the crashed disk press release
because they DIDN'T know they were dealing with a secret
balloon. But on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday they hush up
Sheriff Wilcox because they DO know they are dealing with a
secret balloon and don't want it made public, but let J.B.
Johnson freely take photos in Fort Worth of what they don't want
Wilcox to talk about and have them sent all over the planet Go
figure that one out. Maybe on Sunday Stacy will give it a rest.

>You use
>"documented statement" as if that solved everything. We've got
>all sorts of "documented" statements about Roswell that we now
>know to be less than true or honest, let alone documented
>(whatever that means).

"Whatever that means," indeed. In fact, once again I haven't a
clue as to what the man is talking about. Maybe some actual
examples would help, instead of posturing generalities.
"Documented" in this specific case meant there was a
contemporary quote from Wilcox printed in a newspaper indicating
that he was working with the military and there were some things
he wasn't supposed to talk about. This wasn't a "50-year-old
memory" or "anecdote," yet it's very close to Kellahin's memory
of what Wilcox told him.

<snip>

>>Now why in the world would they need to keep Brazel locked up
>>for a week if it was nothing but a Mogul balloon crash?

>Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but it's always been my
>impression that Mogul itself was a secret project at the time.
>Secret is secret.

Yeah, it was so "secret" they let photos be taken of it in Fort
Worth. It was so "secret" they carried out a demo launch for the
press at Alamogordo the next day and suggested one of their
other launches may have been responsible for what Brazel found.
It was so "secret," they carried all their launches out in the
open, easily visible to any Russian spy with a pair of
binoculars. It was so "secret," that Princeton University a few
days later described the exact same type of balloon array being
used to conduct cosmic ray research. It was so "secret," Mogul
people, including Charles Moore, published a very detailed
account, complete with drawings and descriptions of the
equipment, in the Journal of Meteorology a year later. It was so
"secret," that the word "Mogul" (supposedly a Top Secret name),
appears in documents classified at only the "confidential"
level. . It was so "secret" that one drifted directly over
Roswell base on June 5, the day after the alleged Roswell Mogul,
yet supposedly they knew nothing of it. It was so "secret," that
when another New Mexico rancher found a crash back on June 7, he
knew exactly where to report it, they sent out 2 guys in a jeep
to pick up the pieces, and nothing happened. It was so "secret"
that when another Mogul in early July crashed and was stolen by
locals, nothing at all happened.

So hat exactly was so damn "secret" about Mogul? Mogul had two
components. One was to develop constant level balloon technology
for all sorts of applications, spying being only one of them.
None of that was secret. Thus we get the very detailed
descriptions of the equipment and technology a year later in the
very public Journal of Meteorology. Constant level balloons also
had nonclassified, civilian applications. Thus the Princeton
story about the balloons conducting cosmic ray research.

The other component was using these balloons to spy on the
Russians, involving initially sonic detection of Soviet A-bomb
blasts. This PURPOSE of Mogul was secret, but none of the actual
equipment was classified or in the least bit unusual (except for
later-developed microphones). It was mostly off-the-shelf
meteorological stuff. Mogul people like Charles Moore and
Project Officer Trakowski have in fact stated that they weren't
too concerned with the balloons being found by civilians,
because there really wasn't anything they were likely to figure
out from any of the wreckage.

But Brazel supposedly finds a crashed Mogul balloon made of
standard weather balloon equipment, somehow thinks its radically
different from other weather balloons he had found before,
somehow thinks it might be one of those flying saucers he just
heard about, goes to Roswell to report it, and suddenly the
military goes ballistic. Even more mysteriously, the military
remained ballistic even after Gen. Ramey chuckled and called it
all a big mistake, nothing but a weather balloon folks. He put
what was supposedly found in Roswell on public display and
allowed photos to be taken.

So why wasn't that the end of it?  Instead Brazel was
subsequently marched to the Daily Record office shortly
afterwards under military escort (many witnesses including
Kellahin) and remained incommunicado at the base for another
week. Afterwards he told friends and family that they had thrown
him in prison and was repeatedly interrogated (many witnesses,
including base Provost Marshall Easley).

Why did they do this to Brazel and apparently instruct Wilcox
not to talk? Stacy's explanation is that Mogul was SOOOO secret,
even though the military was publicly blabbing about the balloon
trains it in all sorts of ways immediately afterwards, Ramey was
publicly displaying some of the alleged remains, and the
military had never mistreated civilians who had found the
balloons before or after. Mogul people today state they didn't
really care if anybody found the equipment, it was impossible to
conceal anyway, nothing could be learned from them, and most of
the balloons were simply left to rot in the wild.

There was no reason whatsoever to detain Brazel if he had in
fact discovered a small portion of a Mogul (remember, just the
singular balloon and radar reflector in Fort Worth, the current
official Air Force position). There was nothing shown in Fort
Worth to distinguish it from an ordinary weather balloon. What's
a spy going to learn from that?  The Air Force could have simply
told Brazel that he had found part of a scientific balloon just
like ones they used back in New Jersey for cosmic ray research,
given him a $50 reward for reporting it, and sent him home. But
that's not the way it played out, is it? Brazel didn't believe
he had found a balloon of any type, defiantly ending his RDR
interview stating that what he found didn't resemble in any way
weather balloons he had previously found. The military acted
like they were scared to death of what this sheep rancher might
continue to say and detained him until he finally toed the party
line. Over what -- a very unsecret secret balloon?

>You might as well assert that
>Japanese-Americans on the west coast were locked up because UFOs
>were reported over Los Angeles in 1941, although it seems more
>likely that it was an aftermath of Pearl Harbor.

Why would anybody but a fool assert such a thing since it makes
utterly no sense? If we were to apply Stacy's Japanese-American
analogy to Roswell, Brazel being incarcerated by the military
immediately after reporting a crashed flying saucer was all just
a big coincidence. Yeah, that's it! Brazel was really
incarcerated for something else. Obviously MUFON never fully
appreciated Stacy's absurdist comic side.

>That assumes
>that all statements about Marcel's incarceration are not just
>documented, but actually reflect reality.

As usual, with Stacy, no matter how many people tell the same
story of Brazel (not Marcel) being incarcerated and muscled by
the military, we can never accept that it might actually reflect
reality.  There's a good reason that Stacy and others are in
such denial about this. I think even he recognizes that such
mistreatment of Brazel would be totally inconsistent with a
stupid balloon crash, no matter how allegedly "secret" it was
(which it really wasn't after all, was it?).

David Rudiak







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   Sep > Sep 12

                        Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 13:09:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 06:40:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs


>>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug"<KONAWS@statoil.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:17:22 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

Asgeir,

>>>Crop Circles: Messages from Beyond?
>>>article and photos by Ron Russell
>>>Copyright 1998 FATE Magazine>>>>>
>>>September 1998

>>and thus:

>>>Considerable evidence shows that crop circles have been known
>>>throughout Earth's history. The Dead Sea Scrolls' Book of Noah
>>>and several works of medieval literature mention them. Many
>>>ancient stone carvings, including one at Stonehenge, seem
>>>remarkably similar to the shapes in the fields.

>>However, I haven't "validated" these claims myself - yet, but
>>I'll try to do my very best, and maybe with a little help from
>>The List?

Perhaps we should expect Ron to validate them. I would be
interested in hearing more specific details.

Rob





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   Sep > Sep 12

                         Re: Brown Mountain Lights?

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 98 14:02:35 PDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:01:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Brown Mountain Lights?


>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:24:50 -0400 (EDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Brown Mountain Lights?

>>Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 20:15:15 -0400
>>From: Doc Landry <landryp1@home.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Brown Mountain Lights....request

>There is an old song about the lights. The refrain goes:
>
>"High on the mountain, and down in the valley below,
>It shines like the crown of an angel,
>And fades as the mists come and go,
>Way over yonder, night after night until dawn,
>A faithful old slave, come back from the grave, is searching
>for his master who is long, long gone........."

Hi, Bob,

It's not an "old song" in the sense of being an authentic folk
song.  Written (I believe in the 1950s) by the late Scotty
Wiseman (of Lulubelle and Scotty, a popular husband-and-wife
hillbilly singing duo of the period), it became something of a
bluegrass standard over the years.  I am particularly fond of
versions by the Country Gentleman and the late Charlie Moore.

Jerry Clark







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   Sep > Sep 12

                  Vanderhoof, BC Circles Update - 09-11-98

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:23:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:04:20 -0400
Subject: Vanderhoof, BC Circles Update - 09-11-98


Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Update
September 11, 1998

VANDERHOOF, BC CIRCLES UPDATE

Report from Chad Deetken (Pacific Research):


Crop Formation At Vanderhoof, BC, Canada

written by Chad Deetken, Sept. 8, 1998

Sometime during the night of August 27 / 28, 1998, British
Columbia got its first verified crop formation in the small
small farming community of Vanderhoof, just west of Prince
George in central B.C. The formation, consisting of 11 circles
ranging in size from 18' 6" to 99' in diameter, was located in a
field of oats next to runway #250 at the small Vanderhoof
airport.

One of the first people to see them was pilot Eric Stier. He was
returning from aerial fire patrol on Friday, Aug. 28th and was
just approaching the runway at 4:15 PM when he spotted the
distinct pattern. He had flown over the same field the day
before and says there was nothing in it then.

Soon after landing, he and friends Neil Weibe, John McQueen and
Bryan Wallace went back into the air for a second look. They
took numerous photos and scrutinised the field very carefully
but said they could see no tracks or points of entry. They had
no idea what to make of these strange circles.

The next morning, Saturday, they walked into the field. Still
suspecting a possible prank, they looked very carefully for
paths and other signs of human involvement but found nothing. At
this point, they told the owner of Vanderhoof Flying Services
Brent Miskuski of their find and he in turn notified farmers
Frank and Margaret Smith who lease the land.

Up to this point, only a handful of people knew about the
formation and so it was relatively undisturbed. However, by
Monday, the press found out and from that moment on interest and
visits to the site began.

My wife Gwen and first learned about the formation on Tuesday
morning and within an hour and a half were on our way for the 9
1/2 hour drive from Vancouver. We arrived after dark at about 9
PM. We entered the formation at 10 AM on Wednesday.

Since numerous people had already visited the site, it was
difficult to detect certain features which would indicate
whether or not it was genuine. However, there were still
numerous areas that had not been walked on. In these areas, I
found no obvious signs of damage to the stalks or compaction of
the soil. Also, the lay looked quite good and dowsing the
circles indicated a strong energy.

Related Anomalous Reports

During the three days we were at the site, we spoke to many
people who had experiences which may be related to the arrival
of the formations.

a) Many people told us their dogs barked incessantly or acted
strangely the night the formation appeared. One woman, Rosie
Martins, told us her dog was so out of control that the family
cat took fright and jumped into her son's bed to hide,
scratching him badly. Another woman, Mae Frankel, said her son's
dogs were in a barking frenzy all that night. Also, Margaret
Smith's mother visited the circles and when she returned home,
her dogs and cats refused to come near her. And a couple who
were visiting the formation with their small dog said the dog
was desperate to get out of the large circle.

b) A woman told us that at 2 AM on Friday, the night the
formations appeared, she saw an eerie glow in the forest a few
miles from her house. She thought it might be a fire and so woke
her husband but after an hour it simply blinked out. She said it
was a fiery orange light which lit up a large area and that
there was no smoke.

c) That same Friday, during the day, two men in a neighbouring
town said they saw two silver objects rising from the lake they
were fishing on. At first it seemed they might be looking at
reflections in the water about a half mile away but then
whatever it was rose and took off rapidly. These men say they
are not believers in the paranormal and seemed embarrassed by
their sighting. Neither could explain what they had seen and
they did not know of the existence of the crop circles.

d) Lars Sabbie's wife was pulling a hay wagon with a pickup
truck a few miles away from the circle field at 7:30 PM on
Monday, the 31st of August. Suddenly, the hay burst into flames.
She managed to save the truck but the wagon burned to the
ground. She is a non-smoker. Cases of hay wagons catching fire
are not unheard of but are quite rare.

Collecting Samples

Over the next few days, we collected 53 sets of stalk samples
from circles and 101 controls. Each sampling contains about 20
stalks. In addition, we took an equal number of soil samples.
These will be sent to the Burke/Levengood/Talbot team for
analysis.

Technical Data

Crop - oats
Date of formation - night of Aug 27/28
Size of circles - in a cluster of 5, one was 51' diameter
                  and clockwise
one was 23'10" diameter and counterclockwise
one was 50' 2" diameter and clockwise
one was 41' 8" diameter and counterclockwise
one was 46' 6" diameter and clockwise

- in a cluster of 3, one was 19' 8" diameter
  and counterclockwise
one was 19' 6" diameter and clockwise
one was 18' 6" diameter and counterclockwise

- in a cluster of 3, one was 99' diameter and counterclockwise
one was 21' 8" diameter and clockwise
one was 22' and clockwise

The distances that separated the circles in each cluster ranged
from 1 foot to 2' 8". The distance between the two circles
furthest from each other was 535 feet. The closest distance to
edge of field was 175 feet. The distance of runway to closest
circle is 600 feet

It is noteworthy to mention that after we had completed our
sampling, hundreds of people from the surrounding area began
visiting the field. We talked to a great many of them, always
asking if they knew of any pranksters who might be capable of
this or if they had heard of the slightest rumour suggesting a
hoax. Every single person, regardless of their personal belief
as to the circle's origins, said they had heard nothing. This
holds true today, 12 days later.

_________________


Web site updated September 11.
(URLs below)

_________________


For further information or correspondence, contact:

Paul Anderson

Director
CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA
Affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International
Main Web Site:  www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310
1998 Updates:  www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1998

Director
MILLENNIUM RESEARCH INSTITUTE
Web:  mypage.direct.ca/p/psa/ (being revised)

Representative
BLT RESEARCH, INC.

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue, Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4
Tel / Fax:  604.731.8522
E-Mail:  psa@direct.ca







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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 14:43:34 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:29:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:36:25 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

<snip>

>>Thanks for weighing in. Jorge Luis Borges put it this way:
>>"There is no intellectual exercise that is not ultimately
>>pointless." But there is evidence that Borges, in his roundabout
>>way, made the statement that he did precisely to initiate such
>>an exercise. Arguments such as these turn up all sorts of arcana
>>that one might not have been aware of otherwise. See below for
>>an example.

>Are you indicating that the discussion regarding the Roswell
>Event is nothing more than an "intellectual exercise"?
>Secondly, are there any new arguements being debated here, or is
>much of this simply posturing?


No, I was responding to Kevin's statememnt that such arguments
usually lead nowhere. My answer to that is in the above graf, as
written. To me, Marcel's testimony is germane not only to the
issue of how many UFOs supposedly crashed at Roswell, but
whether _any_ of them contained bodies or not.

<snip>

>>We know that if bodies were recovered at a crash site prior to
>>the Brazel site that Blanchard would most certainly have known
>>about same, indeed, he would had to have initiated their
>>recovery.

>I have to ask why you feel certain that Blanchard would have
>know about alleged bodies recovered at an earlier crash
>location?


Do you think it likely that a massive recovery effort would
simply have organized itself without the base commander's
knowledge or participation? That Blanchard looked up, noticed
half the base was on "manuevers," said "Hm, I wonder where
everybody is?" and went back to shuffling papers? Randle tells
us Marcel wouldn't necessarily have known about any bodies, and
now you're suggesting that even Blanchard might not have known?
Maybe it would be easier if you just gave us a short list of
people who _would_ have known, now that both the base commander
and its intelligence officer are supposedly out of the picture.
Frank Kaufmann did everything else, maybe he managed this as
well.

<snip>

>Isn't it possible that Blanchard believed that this matter was
>already known to the public, since it had been reported to the
>local authorities by civilians. As Commander of the Base, he may
>have felt the need to quickly explain what he knew about the
>event to show that the military was on top of the situation. If
>the base communicatons for that time period hadn't been
>destroyed, we might be able to answer some of these questions.
>But we are now trying to look back fifty years and analyze his
>intent, based to a great degree on our beliefs.
>

To the best of my knowledge, "base communications" for that time
period weren't all destroyed, just those of one of the military
police units. I agree that part of the problem is the 50-year
time gap that we're trying to penetrate.

>>But I was there at the 50th anniversary celebration in Roswell
>>(and so were you, Kevin) and saw Marcel Jr. put his stamp of
>>approval on the so-called Derrell Sims Roswell specimen. Sad,
>>wasn't it?

>I was there as well, and it wasn't really a "stamp of approval".
>Jesse (Jr.) had been asked to take part in a number of events
>that week, and the 'Press Conference', that wasn't really a
>press conference, was a pretty sad event for all involved.


I agree completely about the press conference farce. But Marcel
was on stage with Simms and the others, went to the microphone
and briefly described the fragment as similar to what he had
seen. After the presentation and to his credit, Marcel went out
the front of the building, unlike some of the others who were
hustled out the back, and answered questions, where I took his
picture. If it wasn't a stamp of approval, it certainly wasn't a
stamp of disapproval. He could have said, "Sorry, guys, but that
doesn't look a damn bit like what I saw."

Rebecca Schatte was there, too. Maybe she'd like to chip in? ebk
was in town, too, but I'm not sure if he attended the sham
"press conference" or not. How about it, Errol?

 [I was there - it wasn't a 'Press Conference'. The media were
 pissed and literally cornered the producer of 'Roswell' in
 the lobby of the  auditorium - he'd hosted the presentation
 inside. His name escapes me for the moment. I've not seen
 anyone sweat that much since Nixon. I shot video of Rebecca
 with Marcel outside and Sue also shot stills of them together.
                                                         --ebk]

><snip>

>The Roswell Event has become so publicized and there are so many
>profiteers involved (along with honest researchers) that the
>entire matter has become a muddy mess.

>(Sorry for the interruption)

>Steve


No need to apologize. I agree completely!

Dennis







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                  Re: Jaime Maussan British T.V. Interview

From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:32:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:32:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Jaime Maussan British T.V. Interview

>From: Ian J. Darlington <webmaster@interweb-design.co.uk>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Jaime Maussan British T.V. Interview
>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 14:34:08 +0100

>This morning, following their brief crop circle report two days
>ago (which this investiagtor unfortunately missed), the British
>television programme 'GMTV' interviewed noted Mexican researcher
>Jaime Maussan.

>This was in resepct of the BUFORA conference in Leeds this week
>and allowed Jaime to plug the conference as well as show some
>brief clips of recent footage taken in Mexico.

Just for the record it is the (UK) UFO Magazine/Quest International
conference in Leeds this weekend.

Unfortunately I only a saw a brief section of the programme when
Jaime was on and was unable to video it :(

Did Jaime appear more than once? The section I saw only lasted a few
minutes and there was no media involvment.

Best wishes,


John Hayes

jhayes@cableinet.co.uk
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com
UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/
Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/









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                        Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:35:34 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:37:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs


>From: David Baker <davbak@globalnet.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs
>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:51:38 +0100

Dave,

Re. Historical circles.

>Rob and everyone,

>Isn't there a woodcut depicting a 'crop circle', with a devil or
>demon armed with a scythe, dating back a few hundred years? I've
>seen it as part of crop-circle researcher Mark Heywood's
>lecture, but can't remember much else about it.

More often than not the Mowing Devil pamphlet and its woodcut
illustration is referred to without much attention to the text.

So here it is, with the illustration attached as a .bmp:

THE MOWING-DEVIL:
OR, STRANGE NEWS OUT OF HARTFORD-SHIRE

Being a True Relation of a Farmer, who Bargaining with a Poor
Mower, about the Cutting down Three Half Acres of Oats: upon the
Mower's asking too much, the Farmer swore That the Devil should
Mow it rather than He. And so it fell out, that very Night, the
Crop of Oat shew'd as if it had been all of a Flame: but next
Morning appear'd so neatly mow'd by the Devil or some Infernal
Spirit, that no Mortal Man was able to do the like.

Also, How the said Oats ly now in the Field, and the Owner has
not Power to fetch them away.

Licensed, August 22, I678

Men may dally with Heaven, and criticize on Hell, as Wittily as
they please, but that there are really such places, the wise
Dispensations of Almighty Providence does not cease continually
to evince. For if by those accumulated circumstances which
generally induce us to the belief of anything beyond our senses,
we may reasonably gather that there are certainly such things as
DEVILS, we must necessarily conclude that these Devils have a
Hell: and as there is a Hell, there must be a Heaven, and
consequently a GOD: and so all the Duties of Christian Religion
as indispensable subsequents necessarily follow.

The first of which Propositions, this ensuing Narrative does not
a little help to Confirm.

For no longer ago, than within the compass of the present Month
of August, there hapned so unusual an Accident in Hartfordshire
as is not only the general Discourse, and admiration of the
whole County: but may for its Rarity challenge any other event,
which has for these many years been Product in any other County
whatsoever. The story thus.

In the said County lives a Rich industrious Farmer, who
perceiving a small Crop of his (of about three Half-Acres of
Land which he had sowed with Oats) to be Ripe and fit for
Gathering, sent to a poor Neighbour whom he knew worked commonly
in the Summer-time at Harvest Labour to agree with him about
Mowing or Cutting the said Oats down. The poor man as it
behoov'd Him endeavour'd to sell the Sweat of his Brows and
Marrow of his Bones at as dear a Rate as reasonably he might,
and therefore askt a good round Price for his Labour, which the
Farmer taking some exception at, bid him much more under the
usual Rate than the poor Man askt for it: So that some sharp
Words had past, when the Farmer told him he would Discourse with
him no more about it. Whereupon the honest Mower recollecting
with himself, that if he undertook not that little Spot of Work,
he might thereby lose much more business which the Farmer had to
imploy him in beside, ran after him, and told him, that, rather
than displease him, he would do it at what rate in Reason he
pleas'd: and as an instance of his willingness to serve him,
proposed to him a lower price, than he had Mowed for any time
this Year before. The irretated Farmer with a stern look, and
hasty gesture, told the poor man That the Devil himself should
Mow his Oats before he should have anything to do with them, and
upon this went his way, and left the sorrowful Yeoman, not a
little troubled that he had disoblig'd one in whose Power it lay
to do him many kindnesses.

But, however, in the happy series of an interrupted prosperity,
we may strut and plume our selves over the miserable
Indingencies of our necessitated Neighbours, yet there is a just
God above, who weighs us not by our Bags, nor measures us by our
Coffers: but l ooks upon all men indifferently, as the common
sons of Adam: so that he who carefully Officiates that rank or
Station wherein the Almighty has plac't him, tho' but a mean
one, is truly more worthy the Estimation of all men, then he who
is prefer'd to superior dignities, and abuses them: And what
greater abuse than the contempt of Men below him: the relief of
whose common necessities is none of the least Conditions whereby
he holds all his Good things: which when that Tenure is
forfeited by his default, he may justly expect some Judgement to
ensue: or else that those riches whereby he prides himself so
extravagantly may shortly be taken from him.

We will not attempt to fathom the cause, or reason of,
Preternatural events: but certain we are, as the most Credible
and General Relation can inform us, that same night this poor
Mower and Farmer parted, his Field of Oats was publickly beheld
by several Passengers to be all of a Flame, and so continued for
some space, to the great consternation of those that beheld it.

Which strange news being by several carried to the Farmer next
morning, could not but give him a great curiosity to go and see
what was become of his Crop of Oats, which he could not imagine,
but what was totally devour'd by those ravenous Flames which
were observed to be so long resident on his Acre and a half of
Ground.

Certainly a reflection on his sudden and indiscreet expression
(That the Devil should Mowe his Oats before the poor Man should
have anything to do with them) could not but on this occasion
come into his Memory. For if we will but allow our selves so
much leisure, to consider how many hits of providence go to the
production of one Crop of Corn, such as the aptitude of the
Soyl, the Seasonableness of Showers, Nourishing Sol-stices and
Salubreous Winds, etc., we should rather welcome Maturity with
Devout Acknowledgements than prevent our gathering of it by
profuse wishes.

But not to keep the curious Reader any longer in suspense, the
inquisitive Farmer no sooner arriv'd at the place where his Oats
grew, but to his admiration he found the Crop was cut down ready
to his hands; and [as] if the Devil had a mind to shew his
dexterity in the art of Husbandry, and scorn'd to mow them after
the usual manner, he cut them in round circles, and plac't every
straw with that exactness that it would have taken up above an
Age for any Man to perform what he did that one night: And the
man that owns them is as yet afraid to remove them.

FINIS

Rob





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   Sep > Sep 12

                           alt.ufo.reports Archive

From: Geoff Dittman <gdittman@autobahn.mb.ca>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 17:09:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:34:44 -0400
Subject: alt.ufo.reports Archive

The alt.ufo.reports newsgroup exists to allow people to report
their UFO sightings to the public.  While AUR has unfortunately
been cluttered with off-topic posts, over the years a large
number of sightings reports have been collected.  These reports
are now available at:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2653/reports.html

The reports are organized by date of posting.






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 12

                      Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'

From: Bourdais Gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 00:15:39 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:55:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'


>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:30:42 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'

>>Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 19:03:36 +0200
>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
>>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'

>But all of this could have been done _without_ the huge risk of
>a press release. Why take the chance of a press release that was
>guaranteed to be reported around the world, which is exactly
>what happened? After all, it would have taken only one reporter,
>curious as to whether there might be more to the story, to
>potentially blow it wide open.

>It also doesn't explain why a disc is referred to. Again, why
>run the risk of possibly arousing suspicion? And why not
>describe something more resembling what you were going to show
>off at the subsequent press conference?

>Dennis

 Let's try to say it another way since, apparently, I was not
clear enough. What we are trying to do is to find a plausible
explanation for the press release. Yes, it was a serious risk,
so why did they - I mean Col. Blanchard and those who gave him
the green light, most probably - why did they take that risk ?

Because, perhaps, on the early morning of Tuesday 8, they had
very good reasons to fear that the discovery of the debris field
was going to become public. Now suppose it happened and they had
said nothing : they would have had a very difficult time with
the press !

They may have decided that it was a smart solution to give a
vague information, with the option to deny it as soon as the
situation would be under control. This is what happened and it
worked beautifuly. Please note again that that the description
of the disc strongly suggest that there was no confusion with
any kind of balloon. In addition, it sais that everything had
been retrieved. So, there was nothing left to see, and no reason
to go there : their nightmare, I imagine, was to find a crowd
when arriving on the spot !

At that time, as Walter Haut explained to me, the army was so
highly respected, two years after the victory, that anything
they said was believed without discussion. And this is what
happened with the balloon explanation of General Ramey. In fact,
the Roswell rebuttal was so well received that it became a
starting point for global UFO debunking in the press. The
biggest article published in the New York Times for the whole
period was the rebuttal of Ramey, with two columns on the first
pages entitled:

(July 9, 1947)
"Disk" Near Bomb Test Site
Is just a Weather Balloon.

The article commented:

"This denouement closed the New Mexico chapter in the "flying
saucer" saga that already had contributions from forty-three
other states in the Union as well as in Australia, England,
South Africa, Mexico and Canada".

From there on, the tone was set to put in doubt about all UFO
observations, which was not at all the case before July 9. See
for instance the titles of the New York Times for the previous
days:

July 6 (page 1):

"Flying Saucers" Mystify Experts ; May Be Prank of Nature, They Say.


July 7 (page 1):

Military Planes Hunt Sky Discs With Cameras in Vain on Coast


July 8 (page 1):

"Disks" Soar Over New York, Now Seen Aloft in All colors.

This article spoke of sightings in increasing numbers, and
"harassed policemen and astronomers".

At least, this tentative explanation of the press release sounds
better to me than the USAF one, which still suggests that
Blanchard was overexcited by flying saucers  (a "loose canon",
told me Karl Pflock : how can a "loose canon" become a four
stars General ?).

If it were the case, how could he go on vacation for three weeks
in the afternoon, not even waiting for the arrival of the plane
at Fort Worth ? Because he knew already how General Ramey was
taking over!

Gildas Bourdais








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                       Sherlock Holmes & the Universe

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 19:38:24 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:02:14 -0400
Subject: Sherlock Holmes & the Universe


Folks,

Source: an astronomical buddy in Florida, an ad hoc lesson for
anybody studying what's up there.

-Brian Cuthbertson

=========================

Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson went on a camping trip. As they
lay down for the night, Holmes said: "Watson, look up into the
sky and tell me what you see". Watson said, "I see millions and
millions of stars".

Holmes: "And what does that tell you?

Watson: "Astronomically, it tells me that there are millions of
galaxies and potentially billions of planets. Theologically, it
tells me that God is great and that we are small and
insignificant. Meteorologically, it tells me that we will have a
beautiful day tomorrow. What does it tell you?"

Holmes: "Somebody stole our tent."


Never overlook or assume the obvious.....









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   Sep > Sep 12

                       Re: Randle & Johnson On Roswell

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 18:52:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:52:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Randle & Johnson On Roswell


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:03:28 EDT
>Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:29:37 -0400
>Subject: Re: Roswell and 'Alien Rapture'

>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:44:59 EDT
>>Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:12:01 -0400

Johnson:

>>>_No_other_ member of the press _ever_ was briefed by General
>>>Ramey concerning the Roswell Event (other than his brief radio
>>>announcement later that night) or was _ever_ -- for 51 years! --
>>>allowed to view, examine, touch or photograph the alleged
>>>Roswell "Flying Saucer". I know. I was that reporter/photographer.

Randle:

>>Well, this isn't quite right. According to Major Jesse Marcel,
>>Colonel Thomas DuBose and Warrant Officer Irving Newton, other
>>reporters did interview Ramey and question the staff in person
>>about the debris. First, we have the photograph taken of Irving
>>Newton which is not one of those now claimed by Johnson. Second,
>we have statements by all three suggesting they met with the
>>press. DuBose said there were four or five reporters present.
>>Newton said that he entered a room with a number of people
>>including reporters. Marcel said that he was not allowed to talk
>>to the reporters in the room.

>>So, while it is clear that Johnson met with Ramey alone, other
>>reporters had the opportunity as well. Johnson certainly can't
>>tell us what happened in Ramey's office after he left, but those
>>who were there can, and each of them, who has spoken about it
>>has suggested there were a number of reporters present. <snip>

>>If Johnson was the _only_ reporter to interview Ramey about
>>this, then he must account for the photograph that he didn't
>>take, and the statements of the men who were there the whole
>>time, and not just briefly about 4:30 or 5:00.

Johnson:

>Kevin Randle has tried for many YEARS to conjure up a "press
>conference" in General Ramey's office on July 8, 1947, and has
>insisted on describing such as being fact in his writings
>regarding the Roswell Event.

It isn't a matter of Randle "conjuring" this up, which implies
he based it on nothing.. Three other people who were there
besides you claim that other reporters were involved at other
times.

> I have discussed this with him over
>a period of several hours on at least five occasions when he has
>phoned me. Where is there ANY evidence of any OTHER media
>representatives being present in General Ramey's office that
>day?

AP and UP news stories of what Newton, Ramey, and allegedly
Marcel said. There were several quotes from Newton, e.g.,
detailed below.

> I have asked that question for nearly ten years and Randle
>has yet to provide a scintilla of EVIDENCE of ANY press
>conference. Let us examine the evidence (as opposed to rumor)
>and, hopefully, now put this fable to rest finally.

Read the AP and UP news accounts of what transpired. They were
not the same, so it was unlikely they were written from some
common press release from Ramey. The standard UP story had the
following information:

"Brig. Gen. Roger B. Ramey, commander of the Eighth Air Force,
said at Fort Worth that he believed the object was the 'remnant
of a weather balloon and a radar reflector,' and was 'nothing to
get excited about.' He allowed photographers to take a picture
of it. It was announced that the object would be sent to Wright
Field, Dayton, Ohio, for examination by experts."

"LATER, Warrant Officer Irving Newton, Stensonville, Wis.,
weather officer at Fort Worth, examined the object and said
definitely that it was nothing but a badly smashed target used
to determine the direction and velocity of high altitude winds.
...Newton said four of the wind sounding devices were released
daily by every Army weather station in the nation."

Note once again where 1947 news accounts have Gen. Ramey calling
the debris a weather balloon and radar target well BEFORE Newton
was ever called in for official identification.  The UP also
referred to "photographers" in the plural, though they may have
been mistaken.

The standard AP story went into more detail about what Newton
said and gave more of the official story being put out in Fort
Worth:

"Warrant Officer Irving Newton, a forecaster at the Army's Eigth
Air Force Weather Station here, said the object found near
Roswell, N.M. was Ray wind target use to determine the direction
and velocity of winds at high altitudues."

"He said there were some 80 weather stations in the United
States using this type of balloon, and it could have come from
any one of them."

" 'We use them because they can go so much higher than the eye
can see,' Newton explained. A radar set is employed to follow
the balloon and through a process of triangulation the winds
aloft are charted, he added."

"When rigged up, Newton stated the object looks like a
six-pointed star, is silvery in appearance, and rises in the air
like a kite, mounted to a 100 gram balloon."

"Newton said he had sent up identical balloons to this one
during the invasion of Okinawa to determine ballistics
information for heavy guns."

So where did the quoting and paraphrasing of Newton's statements
come from if at least one other reporter wasn't there? Once
again, the UP and AP accounts are not identical, so a common
press release seems unlikely.

To continue with the AP story, this portion in part seemingly
being attributed to Marcel:

"The weather device had been found three weeks previously by
Brazell [sic] on his property about 85 miles Northwest of
Roswell. Brazell, whose ranch is 30 miles from the nearest
telephone and has no radio, knew nothing about flying discs when
he found the broken remains of the weather device scattered over
a square mile of his land." [Note the huge area in this version]

"He bundled the tinfoil and broken wooden beams of the kite and
the torn synthetic rubber remains on the balloon together and
rolled it under some brush, according to Maj. Jesse A Marcel,
Houma, La., 509th Bomb Group Intelligence Officer at Roswell,
who brought the device to Fort Worth"

"On a trip to town at Corona, N.M. Saturday night, Brazell heard
the first reference tot he 'silver' flying disks, Maj. Marcel
related."

"Brazell hurried home, dug up the remnants of the kite and
balloon on Sunday, and Monday headed for Roswell to report his
find to the Sheriff's office."

"This resulted in a call to Roswell Army Air fireld and to Maj.
Marcel's being assinged to the case. Marcel and Brazell
journeyed back to the ranch, where Marcel took the object into
custody of the Army."

"After Col. William H. Blanchard, 509th Commanding Officer,
reported the incident to Gen. Ramey, he was orded to dispatch
the object to Fort Worth Army Field immediately."  And so on.

So this seems to be the official story of what happened put out
from Fort Worth. Certainly Newton is quoted from, and the story
of Brazel's discovery are attributed to Marcel in part, though
possibly could have been related through someone else. Marcel's
memory of this was that he was ordered by Ramey not to speak to
reporters, and anything he did say was only with Gen. Ramey's
approval. Dubose likewise said that Ramey was in complete charge
and everybody just followed his orders.

>First of all, "press conferences" -- as we know them today --
>had not yet been born! During the five years that I was a full
>time reporter/photographer for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram --
>1943-1947 -- I do not recall EVER covering ANY event where there
>was more than ONE reporter or ONE photographer present. It was
>quite different in those days.

How do you know that Ramey's people didn't call various news
agencies like the UP and AP and have them send representatives
over? Ramey was debunking the Roswell press release, and
wouldn't he want to get the word out as quickly and as widely as
possible? Press conferences may not have been the norm in
cowtown Fort Worth, but they were not exactly unheard of in 1947
or earlier. If necessary, one could have been arranged, even in
Fort Worth.

Or, reporters from other nearby newspapers spontaneously hurried
out to cover the big story breaking at FW AAF, just like you
did. What's so hard to believe about that? You just happened to
be closer, so you were the first to get there, the others
arriving after you left.

>My paper, the Morning Fort Worth Star-Telegram had no
>competition in its market so there would have been no occasion
>for any competition to be present.

What about the Fort Worth "Press," the other FW paper? Dallas
isn't that far away, and weren't there several newspapers there
at the time? Isn't your memory also that the AP sent a wirephoto
machine from Dallas to your newspaper and were screaming for
your photos? Couldn't somebody acting on behalf of the AP have
been dispatched to FW AAF prior to that, arrived after you left,
and recorded Newton's comments? Maybe somebody from the UP did
as well. The fact that the Star-Telegram had no major
competition in the Fort Worth market doesn't exclude newspapers
or even radio stations from elsewhere.

>There was during those years
>NO TV station and the radio stations did not have "spot news"
>assignment reporters working in the field. There were no
>facilities for "remote" live broadcasts and the only portable
>recorders were poor quality wire recorders -- which I never saw
>used by any of the Fort Worth area stations. The wire services
>relied on their member newspapers to provide both news coverage
>and photo coverage so I never saw anyone in the field
>specifically from a wire service.

So where did the AP get the quotes from Newton? If the quotes
were in a press release, why didn't the UP print the same
material? Couldn't any of the wire service member newspapers,
perhaps from Dallas, have sent over people to cover the story,
unbeknownst to you? How about the FW "Press," or smaller
newspapers from nearby towns like Denton and Waco?

>Since just by fate I apparently arrived at Ramey's office before
>he did and he obviously had not had an opportunity to view the
>Roswell debris since it all had not yet been unwrapped prior to
>my arrival (see at least two packages lying on the floor STILL
>not unwrapped in all the seven fotos taken that day) that
>certainly seems to rule out any determination to that point as
>to the true nature of the debris.

I have pointed out on a number of occasions that various news
accounts of that period do NOT agree with your current memory of
events. Ramey stated he had seen the material and was very
specifically calling the debris a weather balloon and radar
reflector. Various news accounts make this very clear he was
first saying this well BEFORE you arrived there. He also added
that this was still highly classified stuff, even though he
didn't think it was anything to get excited about.

Does it stand to reason that he would allow you, a civilian, to
see something highly classified before he had personally made a
determination? In fact, wouldn't he have probably waited until
Newton arrived and made a positive ID before allowing any
civilian reporter near the stuff?

Yet your story today is that you were the first person in Fort
Worth to lay eyes on what was inside the wrapping paper, because
you personally unwrapped the package.  Not even Ramey had seen
it yet.

If your story of being left alone with the alleged highly
classified debris is true then the only scenario that makes
sense is that you didn't see or photograph the real debris.
They wouldn't have let you anywhere near the real stuff -- no
chance, especially if Ramey hadn't seen it yet, as you claim.

The obvious reason Ramey allowed you to freely take all those
photos of alleged "classified debris" before a positive
identification had been made, is because that wasn't the real
debris and Ramey already knew what was inside. Ramey wanted you
to take those photos of a weather balloon and radar target,
because that was the cover story he began to put out BEFORE you
ever got there, in fact about an hour BEFORE you ever got there.

> Until Ramey had had an
>opportunity to examine the debris -- and then to have his
>"hunches" later confirmed by weather officer Newton -- he would
>not have been in any position to make any statement that this
>was NOT a "flying saucer" as had been previously announced
>officially earlier in the day by the AAF.

Again, why would he allow you anywhere near the real stuff if he
previously had no opportunity to examine it as you claim? Your
story makes no sense. Furthermore, it is flatly contradicted by
news accounts of the day. To repeat, Ramey was calling it a
weather balloon and radar target BEFORE you ever got there, and
definitely claiming to have already viewed the material. The
following quote from the newspaper New York P.M. says it all:

"Ramey said he couldn't let anybody look at the thing or
PHOTOGRAPH IT because Washington had clamped a 'security lid' on
all but the sketchiest details."

" 'The object,' he said, 'is in my office right now and as far
as I can see there is nothing to get excited about. It looks to
me like the remnant of a weather balloon and a radar reflector.'
"

So there it is in a nutshell. Ramey said it was already in his
office, it looked like a weather balloon and radar target to
him, there was still high security associated with it, therefore
he hadn't "let anybody look at the thing or photograph it" yet.
That means you, Mr. Johnson.

> Even generals did not
>claim clairvoyant powers in those days! If it had been
>determined in Roswell as to the "true identity" of what Marcel
>et al. "captured", certainly COL Blanchard as group commander
>could have made the "correction" announcement there just as he
>made the initial announcement. There would then have been NO
>photo opportunity in Fort Worth and Ramey would have had no need
>to get into that loop!

I think it's pretty obvious that the only reason you were let in
that day was because he needed some civilian reporter to take
photos of his cover story weather balloon and get them
distributed far and wide as quickly as possible. You were lucky
and happened to be the first reporter to get there, likely
because your newspaper had no competition in the Fort Worth
area.

>Ramey chose to go on the radio live to make his "weather device"
>announcement rather than to hold any kind of "press conference."

This came much later. First Ramey began putting out the weather
balloon story over the telephone from FW AAF, then you were
admitted to take pictures, then Newton was brought in to make a
positive official identification, and finally Ramey went on the
radio.

I don't understand why you refuse to acknowledge that Ramey was
putting out this story shortly after the crashed disk press
release, and BEFORE you ever got there. The bare bones
reconstructed chronology is as follows (all times Fort Worth
time or MDT):

3:26 - Crashed disk press release first goes out over AP wire.
Marcel leaves for Fort Worth shortly afterwards (or maybe
shortly before).

4:11 - AP bulletin stating that the War Dept. had nothing to
say. This was the first indication that the AP was actively
investigating the story.

~4:15 - 4:30 - Press reports that the story had changed. The
N.Y. Times said this happened within an hour of the press
release. The San Francisco Examiner called Ramey directly, again
within about an hour of the press release, and claimed they were
the first to contact him. They added Ramey described a weather
balloon and radar target to them. Ramey further stated he would
later bring in a meteorological officer for positive
identification. The Washington Post wrote that Gen. Vandenberg
dropped into the Pentagon public information headquarters and
took charge of the inquiry. Vandenberg's schedule indicates he
could have done this at about this time.  Ramey was phoned at
that time from the Pentagon press office, gave a physical
description of the object [like a flimsy box-kite covered with
tinfoil], added he hadn't seen it yet himself and said he would
go take a look. Then he called back "that it was 25 feet in
diameter" and he was shipping it on to Wright Field, but would
have a meteorological officer look at it first.

4:42 - UP bulletin states that reports from Roswell base placed
Marcel in Fort Worth, but officials at Roswell base refused to
comment where the disc had been taken or where "higher
headquarters" was located.

4:53 - AP bulletin with Washington dateline, stating that Gen.
Ramey said the 'disk' had been sent to Wright Field. This is the
first news bulletin in which Ramey was mentioned by name as
being involved. And this is about when Mr. Johnson would have
been sent to FW AAF to cover the story. As Mr. Johnson later
recalled, he "got go into it because the AP picked up that they
were flying it down there [Fort Worth]." Marcel would have
arrived in Fort Worth at about this time (or a little before),
and went directly to Gen. Ramey's office. According to Col.
Dubose and Marcel, Ramey later had someone substitute the
weather balloon for the debris samples Marcel really brought,
after Ramey first viewed them.

5:30 - Maj. E.M. Kirton, an intelligence officer at Fort Worth,
told the Dallas Morning News that the disc was nothing but a
rawin-sonde high altitude sounding device from a weather
balloon. Told them the identification was final and that there
was no need to send the device to Wright Field as originally
planned. Kirton is also mentioned in the FBI telegram 45 minutes
later (or 15 minutes earlier): "Maj. Kirton... advised that the
object found resembles a high altitude weather balloon with a
radar reflector..."

[Yes, the weather balloon/radar target story was being put out
all over the place, even to a Dallas newspaper, BEFORE Mr.
Johnson ever arrived.]

~5:30 - Mr. Johnson arrives at Ramey's office and was
immediately led in by Col. Dubose. Johnson speaks to Ramey and
takes his photos of the real/substituted debris, then departs
approximately 20 minutes later.

~6:00 - Weather officer Irving Newton arrives and makes a
positive identification. Marcel, Dubose, and Newton all claimed
multiple reporters were there at some point. A photo of Newton
was taken with the debris. Newton made some comments about radar
targets which were recorded in some detail by the AP the next
day, and lesser detail by the UP.

6:03 - An AP bulletin from Washington, hinting that the object
was only a meteorological device.

6:15 - An AP bulletin stating that Gen. Ramey would speak over
the NBC network (later cancelled).

6:17 (or maybe 5:17, time zone unclear) - FBI telegram, stating
that Maj. Kirton told them it was a weather balloon and radar
target, and it was being shipped to Wright Field. A call to
Wright Field, however, disagreed with that assessment.

6:30 - AP bulletin announcing that a FW weather officer had
positively identified the object as a weather balloon.

>He physically traveled across town to the studios of station
>WBAP (which the Star-Telegram also owned) about an hour after I
>left his offices to make the announcement around 6 p.m.

Obviously it had to have been somewhat later than that. I would
be very interested in knowing about how long it would have taken
Ramey to travel from FW AAF to the radio station.

Also please note that this was certainly NOT the first time
Ramey announced the weather balloon/radar target solution as you
suggest. In fact, he began to do this at least TWO HOURS
earlier, and some of his people, like Major Kirton, were doing
likewise, like to the Dallas Morning News and the FBI.

>So, as I have asked Kevin Randle since 1981,

1981??? You didn't first speak to Randle until 1989, and you
called him after first being notified of his interest in
speaking to you by the archivisit at the U. of Texas.

> where is there ANY byline story of ANY reporter or ANY photo
>credit of ANY photographer who ever attended a Roswell "press
>conference" ANYWHERE? Or the name of ANY reporter or
>photographer who claimed to have attended such a press
>conference? Where are these phantoms?

I wasn't aware that wire service stories typically carried
bylines. Given Newton's quotes, I think it is pretty clear that
somebody representing the AP, and maybe the UP, showed up at
Ramey's office at some point. It might also be very informative
if someone did a complete search of ALL newspapers in the
Dallas/Fort Worth area to see if some smaller newspapers may
also have sent out someone.

>Because Kevin Randle has remained SO CONVINCED that there did
>exist such a press conference -- even in the complete absence of
>any scintilla of evidence -- I have in recent years tried to
>investigate this point carefully. I went to the Star-Telegram
>morgue just last December and carefully went through all the
>files of all the editions during early July of 1947. I now KNOW
>-- and have photo copies of -- the articles and photos the
>Star-Telegram published in EACH edition during those days re
>Roswell and UFO reports. Randle never has told me that he also
>has thoroughly researched this point. He seems to continue to
>rely on conjecture or fable.

The Star-Telegram wasn't the only newspaper in the area. Have
you searched ALL of these as well? On a potentially big story
like this, why is it so unbelievable that other newspapers, or
even radio stations, wouldn't have sent people out to cover a
big story? Randle's "conjecture or fable" wasn't based on
personal belief, but on testimony from 3 people that other
reporters were there.

I agree we have no idea who these other reporters might have
been, but that doesn't mean they were necessarily "phantoms."
E.g., if a radio station sent someone over, the story could have
been broadcast and there would be no written record of it. And
wire service stories typically do not carry bylines.

>I have read many of the Roswell accounts and I never have seen
>any other photo of the alleged Roswell debris other than the six
>photos I took of General Ramey, COL Dubose and Major Marcel ..
>and the single photo of Irving Newton. Just recently I talked
>with retired Major Irving Newton and specifically asked him if
>he recalls the circumstances of his being photographed in
>General Ramey's office. Unfortunately, he says that he has no
>recall as to who photographed him or if in fact there were any
>civilian reporters present in General Ramey's office.

In the past, he claimed there were reporters there, and further
claimed having to push past them to get into Ramey's office
because they were crowded around the door.

> (There may have been some AAF PIO types there.)

According to Dubose, Maj. Cashon, Ramey's PIO was there, and in
fact impersonated Marcel, as the Roswell "Major". He could very
well have taken Newton's photo, in which case he would have
definitely interacted with Newton. Frankly, I don't understand
why Ramey would have had more than one, or maybe two, AAF PIOs
there.

>He says his best
>recollection is of Major Marcel following him around the office
>trying to show him the symbols on some of the pieces of wreckage
>and trying to convince him that this stuff was from "out of this world."

This is Newton's embellishment of his original story, which has
none of this. It's also not born out by the AP account, which
detailed Newton's comments. More importantly, it's not born out
by Marcel's subsequent service record. E.g., a year later, Gen.
Ramey called Marcel "outstanding," protested his transfer to
Washinton saying he had nobody to replace him, and called him
command officer material based on the caliber of his past work.
(Ramey's operations officer, Col. John D. Ryan, a future AF
Chief of Staff, likewise called Marcel's service"most
outstanding" and "most exemplary.") Can you imagine Newton's
story of Marcel humiliating himself in front of Ramey having any
truth if Ramey wrote those things about him?

Perhaps Newton confused _Major_ Cashon, the PIO who may have
taken his picture (and whom Dubose says impersonated Marcel)
with _Major_ Marcel. Newton knew neither man, and in fact
originally mentioned speaking only with some anonymous Major.
Now it's "Major Marcel" did this, and "Major Marcel" did that

>This is consistent with the sworn statement Newton made
> which is included in the 1995 official Air Force report
> regarding the "Roswell Incident."

It may be consistent with his sworn statement in 1995, but his
story has changed substantially on some points over the years
and become more and more elaborate. When first interviewed in
1979, e.g., he said he was first briefed by a colonel that the
general wanted him to identify what was found by a Roswell major
as a weather balloon, when he had done that he was quickly
dismissed, he hurried back to his unmanned weather station, and
it wasn't until some time AFTER all this happened that he first
told "that the major from Roswell had identified the stuff as a
flying saucer, but that the general had been suspicious of this
identification from the beginning, and that's why I had been
called." However, in his sworn statement, he claimed he
"giggled" at the so-called flying saucer as soon as he entered
Ramey's office.

The part about Marcel chasing him around Ramey's office trying
to get him to change his mind about "alien markings" on the
debris wasn't part of Newton's sworn statement at all or any
earlier interview. Instead it emerged in late 1995 when
interviewed for OMNI Magazine. Newton hasn't been fully
consistent, his story has become more elaborate, and this smacks
of Newton jumping on the debunking bandwagon in the past few
years.

Newton has likewise made recent statements that Marcel didn't
strike him as being very intelligent. However, the Air Force
obviously didn't agree with Newton's assessment. Aside from
statements of high praise from the likes of Blanchard and Ramey
AFTERWARDS, the SAC made Marcel the Chief of a foreign
technology intelligence division the following year. It's rather
hard to believe they would do this if Marcel was so stupid that
he couldn't ID simple balloon material. Then Air Force
Headquarters grabbed him, placed him on the Top Secret Special
Weapons Project as Officer in Charge of the War Room, where he
was the primary briefing officer for this very technological
project. His two evaluations there gave him Superior ratings,
and praised him for his technical know-how, high personal
intelligence, and broad background in all fields of
intelligence. Again, none of this fits with Newton's appraisal
of Marcel not being very intelligent. Newton is either making
this part of his story up, i.e., debunking, or was taken in by
someone else playing Marcel (Cashon, according to Dubose) who
may have played dumb for his benefit.

> The interviews of Dubose and
> Marcel compelled them to rely on dimming 40+-year-old memory.
> There is evidence that they, too, may have had flawed recall
> also. That can be a real impediment to true research.

Indeed, but the same criticisms could be levelled at you and
Newton as well, as I'm sure you appreciate. Why single out
Marcel and Dubose as having "flawed recall" just because you
don't like their stories of Gen. Ramey pulling a weather balloon
switcharoo with the real debris?

And usually two people with "flawed recall" don't tell the same
basic story INDEPENDENTLY of one another, as did Marcel and
Dubose. You may not know it, but both Marcel and Dubose were
first interviewed SEPARATELY a little over 30 years after the
fact, not 40+ years later. In fact Marcel was quite dead 40+
years later. Even back in 1979 or so, both Marcel and Dubose
were stating that the weather balloon was nothing but Gen.
Ramey's cover story to get the press off their backs and
everybody was just following Ramey's orders.

>I have not seen any theories advanced re who took the
>"mysterious" photo of Newton other than this probably was an AAF
>PIO photographer called in to take a picture to back up the
>quote from Newton validating Ramey's "weather device"
>announcement. Incidentally, the Star-Telegram never ran the
>Newton photo and I have never seen it published in any newspaper
>of that time.

I have looked at well over 100 newspapers from that period, and
have found the Newton photo in only four of them. So it is hard
to find, but the Newton photo does exist in some1947 newspapers.
The photo has the "NEA" label on it, a news agency with which I
am not familiar. Perhaps you can tell us more.

The photo carries the following caption: "Grounded Disc is
'Disc-Credited': Irving N. Newton, warrant officer (j.g.) with
the Eighth Air Force weather sation at Fort Worth Army Air
Field, Texas, identifes the 'mysterious object' picked up by W.
W. Brizzell [sic] of Corona, N.M., as a Ray wind target, thus
deflating the rampant rumors of 'grounded flying discs.' The
tinfoil-covered hexagonal object hangs 12 feet below a weather
balloon, is then traced by radar for high winds reports. (NEA
Telephoto)"

In all four newspapers, the photo was published on July 10,
whereas a large percentage of the newspapers first published
your photos on July 9.  This may indicate that whoever took this
picture didn't get it developed and distributed until sometime
on July 9, maybe even too late to make the evening newspapers.
That might indicate this wasn't a civilian photographer
involved, who would have definitely rushed the photo out. Or
maybe the newspapers deemed your photos of Ramey, Dubose, and
Marcel to be more newsworthy and published them preferentially.

>Finally, if anyone knows the etiology of the Newton photo

Newton is probably the only person who could do that, and
according to you he unfortunately doesn't remember who took his
photo. The best guess is Maj. Cashon. Kevin Randle did manage to
locate Cashon back in 1991 I believe, but Cashon, very
unfortunately, refused to discuss what had happened. So there it
stands. The fact that the photo carried the NEA stamp is the
best lead I can give you as to its origins.

>or where the negative might be located -- or where a good
>enlargement might be obtained that can be studied, I certainly
>would appreciate receiving this information. The RPIT (Roswell
>Photo Interpretation Team) very much would like to have access
>to a good copy of the Newton photo for its close and thorough
>study.

LOOK Magazine carried the photo in 1966. The best reproduction
of the Newton photo that I have seen is in Peter Brookesmith's
1995 book, "UFO, The Complete Sightings." (Barnes & Noble books,
ISBN I-56619-795-3). According to the picture credits, the photo
was obtained from Mary Evans Picture Library. Unfortunately Mr.
Brookesmith makes the major faux pas of identifying Newton as
Jesse Marcel. (And his knowledge of Jesse Marcel hasn't improved
since then, as demonstrated in his extremely vicious and
inaccurate debunking of him in his next book.)

You may want to contact Mr. Newton again and ask him his opinion
about what he really viewed that day. Although all interviews
have him stating that he believes the debris is what Marcel
really brought with him, I'm sure he'll also tell you that your
current campaign to prove it wasn't a weather balloon and radar
reflector is misguided. He is absolutely sure he was shown a
radar target, and on this one point I currently don't doubt him.

David Rudiak






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                        Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:54:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:19:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:36:18 +0100
>Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

Asgeir,

>It also seems that corn/maize isn't classified as a grass.

Wheat, barley, rye, maize/corn, sugarcane and bamboo are
all classified as grasses.

Rob






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:11:47 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:15:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:56:21 -0500 (CDT)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

<snip>

>>Was it Saunders, literally on his death bed, who signed off on
>>Randle/Schmitt's "UFO Crash at Roswell" as a true account? Odd,
>>but then didn't Randle make numerous corrections to that book
>>vis a vis Ragsdale, Dennis and others? So which account was
>>Saunders confirming -- the one written before his death or the
>>one written afterwards? Did he mean to affirm Ragsdale and

These last messages are precisely why I know I shouldn't respond
to these messages. Each reference I made to speculation have
been deleted. When I suggested that Marcel could have been sent
to the second site where only debris was found without having
been briefed, I was given proof otherwise in the form of
painters and city firemen, who happened on the situation but who
were not briefed on it. Two separate matters. When I suggested
that Blanchard, unlike Marcel or Haut, had the authority to
issue a press release without consultation with a higher
authority, I hear about launching a strike against the Soviets.
We end up in word games and not something that is productive.

But more importantly, I see where Stacy has decided that Patrick
Saunders endorsed the tales of Ragsdale and Dennis on his death
bed. Simply not true. Patrick Saunders died as the result of a
fall before he made any lengthy statements. What he said, what
he wrote, was that the information in the book was the truth. He
didn't endorse the specific tales of Ragsdale and Dennis, but
was telling us that, essentially, the story of the recovery of
the crashed craft was accurate.

So now we can begin to dissect that statement, add to it what it
was never meant to convey, and then reject it because we know
that it is not true. And, we have the vicarious memories of a
man whose father was in the Air Force. From his point of view,
as the son, Stacy can now tell us how the military operates
because he witnessed his father being called out in the middle
of the night. Of course, we don't know how often his father was
not called because it wasn't his turn, or how often he was
bypassed for any of a number of other reasons. Instead we are
treated to Stacy's military experience.

That is why these sort of arguments are useless. No matter what
I present, whether it is the confirmation of the crash from
Edwin Easley, or Patrick Saunders, or Jesse Marcel, or Joe
Briley, all members of Blanchard's staff in 1947, or some other
information, that will never be sufficient because everyone
knows better.

When Stacy said that Marcel NEVER said a word about bodies, I
pointed out that such is not the case if Nelson Marcel is to be
believed. When Stacy said they would NEVER pass by the base
intelligence officer, I suggested a reason that such might be
the case. Instead, Stacy pointed out that a painter and a
civilian fire fighter had seen the aliens, implying that if they
knew, then Marcel knew. But blundering into the situation is
different than a briefing, and Marcel could have done his job
without the formal briefing.

Yes, my scenario was speculation and labeled as such, labels
that were conveniently left out. But Stacy's analysis is also
speculation, and his speculation is based on his vicarious
military service and not what he learned on active duty.

There are questions that we can't answer, at the moment, because
no one ever asked them of a living Jesse Marcel. There are
several reasons that he might not have told his son about the
bodies, it might be he felt more comfortable sharing that
information with Nelson Marcel. But, as we have learned, just
because it hadn't been reported in public doesn't mean that it
doesn't exist. The recent information suggesting that Marcel, in
a 1980 interview mentioned the gouge reported by Bill Brazel,
Bud Payne and others, shows us that we just don't know
everything yet.

As for the confusion concerning the Roswell case, we who have
investigated in person are not the only culprits in that. I
don't know how many times I heard that Frankie Rowe shouldn't be
believed because the Roswell Fire Department didn't make runs
outside the city limits according to a former city counselman.
Well, when he was on the city counsel, they might not have made
runs outside the city, but in 1947 the did. How do I know.
Because I checked the fire department records and saw the runs
outside the city limits.

So, stay out there spinning the information to fit into the neat
holes that you have created. Condemn and attack that which you
don't believe. I'll keep looking at the facts, and when the
facts break against me, I'll be the first to report (if
possible). After all, I printed the negative information about
Ragsdale because that is what I learned. And I printed the
negative information about Glenn Dennis because he changed the
story after we learned his nurse didn't exist.

KRandle






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              France Probes UFO Sighting Captured On Videotape

From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose)
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 04:26:06 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:17:49 -0400
Subject: France Probes UFO Sighting Captured On Videotape


Source: Fox News

http://www.foxnews.com/etcetera/wires/0911/e_rt_0911_14.sml

Stig

*******

UFO sighting captured on videotape?

5:19 p.m. ET (2121 GMT) September 11, 1998

PARIS --  France's National Center for Space Studies (CNES) said
Friday it was investigating a reported sighting of an
unidentified flying object in the Alpine village of Voreppe
after a witness videotaped the phenomenon.

The videotape shows "a dark form that looks like it is floating
and then moves away in a curious way," CNES expert Jean-Jacques
Velasco told Reuters after viewing the videotape and conducting
initial interviews with witnesses.

He said four individuals in three different groups had reported
seeing the object over a period of several minutes.

They said they initially sighted it perched on the top of a tree
at dusk on September 8.

Two of the individuals were quite near the tree while a third,
about 50 meters (yards) away, had the presence of mind to
quickly run into his house, grab a video camera, and film the
mysterious object as it flew off, he said.

Based on the videotape and preliminary witness accounts, Velasco
said the object appeared to be "a round disc, four to five
meters across, with a few protuberances coming out of it and a
red ring around its base."

The space center said in a statement it was beginning its
investigation by attempting to verify that the tape was genuine.

It was also trying to check out the witnesses and examine the
tree where the object was said to have perched, whose leaves
would be tested for signs of elevated levels of electromagnetic
radiation.

Asked how many UFO probes opened by the CNES had been closed
without an explanation, he responded, "You could count them on
the fingers of one hand."


comments@foxnews.com (link)

=A9 1998, News America Digital Publishing, Inc. d/b/a Fox News
Online.

All rights reserved. Fox News is a registered trademark of 20th
Century Fox Film Corp.







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                        Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

From: Bob Thrift - Institute for UFO Research <iufor@frii.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:06:02 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:22:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs


>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:36:18 +0100
>Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs
>>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:37:31 PDT

><snip>

>>Rob,

>>Is there any thinking on why the agriglyphs seem to appear only in
>>crops of the grass varieties? In Asia would they appear in the big
>>grass (bamboo), and isn't corn or maize a grass?
>>I do not recall reading of them appearing in pea or potato crops, for
>>example.

>>Leanne

>Leanne,

>According to this report from 1992:

>http://www.westworld.com/~gnudarve/ufo/nccr92.txt,

>It seems that wheat and grass are absolutely the most dominating
>crop being affected by agriglyphs.

>It also seems that corn/maize isn't classified as a grass.

>Regards
>AWS

It's unfortunate that one of the differences in English usage on
opposite sides of the Atlantic is that "corn" in Canada and the
USA is "maize" on the other side of the pond -- whereas "corn"
on that side refers to any of a number of types of small cereal
grains. Thus a European reference to a "corn circle" or
"Kornkreise" conjures up a completely erroneous picture in the
mind of an Iowa corn farmer.

Nevertheless, corn (the _zea_mays_ type) is a member of the
grass family, whether crop circle researchers wish to so
classify it or not. One could speculate upon several reasons why
agriglyphs in this crop are rarely reported:

1. The crop is too tall to see well into the field. The plants
typically grow 2 to 2.5 m tall, and in a large field one simply
would not see a circle, even if one were present, unless it were
noticed from the air. And, in the USA and Canada at least, there
are so many thousands of square miles of corn growing, that
spotting a circle from the air becomes a matter of extreme
coincidence.

Cultivation of this crop is done in such a way that erosion of
the land can be more of a problem than with small grains; so one
normally sees corn (maize) growing in flat or gently rolling
fields. This adds to the problem of seeing a circle in a large
field of tall plants.

2. The stalk of the plant is exceedingly thick and tough, and
not likely to fall over, even if damaged. Stalks are typically
2.5 - 3 cm in thickness, have a hard woody outer layer, and will
stand long after the plant is completely dead. The stalks are
known to withstand disastrous hailstorms (even if the leaves do
not). Corn farmers must employ machinery to chop and break the
stalks after harvesting, so that they may be plowed under.

3. Corn farmers tend to take a very strong proprietary interest
in the well-being of their crop. Hoaxers and vandals, even under
cover of darkness, are likely to be met with dogs and shotguns;
and, in corn-growing areas, they know it. In fact, I have never
understood why British grain growers seem to take their losses
so calmly. Must be a cultural thing.

Best regards, Bob

--
===============================================================
|     I N S T I T U T E   F O R   U F O   R E S E A R C H     |
===============================================================
|         Bob Thrift           |    Editor, UFOCUS Magazine   |
|    Webmaster, IUR Web Site   |  http://www.frii.com/~iufor/ |
|    Fort Collins, Colorado    |    email: iufor@frii.com     |
===============================================================






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 23:15:19 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:27:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 98 10:01:00 PDT

>>My dictionary defines canard as "an unfounded or false,
>>deliberately misleading story." As you well know, or should, I
>>am making no deliberate, misleading statements about Marcel.
>>What I am doing is asking you why you think he wasn't invited to
>>the first party, with the bodies, but was then invited to the
>>second party, with no bodies, which occasioned a press release.
>>Don't have a clue, do you? Can't you at least give us a good
>>canard?

>Maybe I'm not as swift as you, Dennis, but your obsession with
>this question baffles me. How do you know what Marcel would have
>been told about and what he wouldn't have been told about? Don't
>have a clue, do you? Then stop acting as if you're so full of
>them that the rest of us must drop jaws and bow and scrape in
>the pressence of your manifestly superior wisdom.

Jeez, Jerry, how swift do you have to be to crack a dictionary?
Secondly, this is a UFO discussion list. Does contributing to it
indicate obsession on my part any more than on yours? I posted
the news about your book getting the Franklin Award, too. Does
that indicate an obsession with Jerry Clark on my part? Start a
thread on the AF Roswell report and maybe I'll post to it. Who
knows? Most posts, in case you haven't noticed, are responses to
prior posts made by (presumably obsessed) others. If you want to
know why I'm interested in whether there was one or more crashes
at Roswell, and whether or not Marcel was involved in the
recovery of alien bodies, and if not, why not, that's been
spelled out in plain English several times. Answering such
questions gives us a better understanding of what may, or may
not, have happened.

If you want to argue that Marcel would have been kept out of a
first recovery with bodies loop, fine by me. Anything you want
to argue is fine by me.

>>>As we have discussed privately, Dennis, all sorts of
>>>ambiguities, contradictions, and unanswered questions are likely
>>>to hover over the Roswell events because nobody conducted an
>>>investigation at the time of its occurrence. When the
>>>investigation began three decades later, people were dead, or
>>>their memories were getting foggy...

Did I ever privately or publicly disagree?

>>>The only hope for the truth,
>>>whatever it may be, is if one day whoever possesses the official
>>>documents decides to release them. Their nonappearance after all
>>>this time is, at the very least, curious to all but, it seems,
>>>Air Force apologists.

>>Yes, but what you're saying is that the truth can only go one
>>way, your way. What if there are no official documents to
>>release? But that would make me an AF apologist, wouldn't it?

>It strikes me that of the two of us, you're the one more
>emotionally tied to a position. You _know_ that nothing out of
>the ordinary happened at Roswell. I know no such thing. Roswell
>continues to baffle me. I find problems with every scenario, ET
>or non-ET. I have tried to urge you to be more tolerant of the
>ambiguity inherent in the circumstances surrounding Roswell, but
>apparently you can't handle that. I also have no trouble
>suspecting that on some at least unconscious level you and
>anti-Roswell types _hope_ there are no official documents.
>

A number of official documents relevant to Roswell _have_ been
issued, as you well know. Since they don't support the recovery
of alien bodies, however, ways are found around them. No need to
know, out of the loop, etc. You state that we won't know the
truth until "whoever possesses the official documents decides to
release them," which assumes that such documents indeed exist.
If you're as open minded as you purport, then presumably you
accept the possibility that there may be no 'smoking-gun'
documents to release. A simple yes or no will suffice.

>>>It may as well note here the curious silence on the part of the
>>>anti-Roswell crowd concerning Roswell adjutant Patrick
>>>Saunders's statement, made to many friends and family members in
>>>writing before his death, that Randle and Schmitt's account of
>>>what happened is essentially correct.. I guess you guys are just
>>>waiting to find your voice, and I have no doubt that soon you'll
>>>be telling us he's just another of the liars whose good name --
>>>like that of Jesse Marcel, Sr. -- awaits the inevitable
>>>trashing. Speaking personally, though, I'd be more inclined to
>>>take his word on it than yours, Martin Cannon's, or my own.

>>Was it Saunders, literally on his death bed, who signed off on
>>Randle/Schmitt's "UFO Crash at Roswell" as a true account? Odd,
>>but then didn't Randle make numerous corrections to that book
>>vis a vis Ragsdale, Dennis and others? So which account was
>>Saunders confirming -- the one written before his death or the
>>one written afterwards? Did he mean to affirm Ragsdale and
>>Dennis? After all, both versions can't be right.

>What Saunders meant, of course, is that Randle and Schmitt got
>it essentially right: that a UFO and bodies were recovered in
>July 1947 in New Mexico. The presence of hoaxers here and there
>among Roswell claimants does not invalidate the testimony of
>honest informants, any more than the liars among UFO witnesses
>generally disproves the existence of UFOs. Of course, by your
>reasoning, if some scientist were to express the view that UFOs
>represent ET visitation, you would accuse him of endorsing
>Adamski and Meier, by this logic.

How do you know what Saunders meant? The man was literally on
his death bed. Ted Holden, also on his death bed, supposedly
confirmed bodies at another site. How do you know who is a
hoaxer and who is an honest informant? But since you do, maybe
you'd care to tell us which category Frank Kaufmann's
fantabulous tales fall into? Hoaxer or honest informant?

>In any case, not being a fool, I am more inclined to take
>Saunders's word than yours or the AF's -- or mine -- on the
>matter. After all, he was there. I realize, of course, that to
>the anti-Roswell polemicists this is no qualification at all, or
>maybe even prima facie evidence that he is some species of
>bald-faced liar.

Who knows, Jerry, but you? I have no doubt but what Glenn Dennis
was there, too. Ditto Kaufmann. But being there doesn't
necessarily mean your account is coherent or accurate. You
admitted above that 50-year-old memories were "foggy." Marcel
was there, as well, althugh he never mentioned bodies to anyone,
according to Randle, until this recent "revelation," if that's
what it is, surfaced. It strikes me as odd, but then I'm
obsessed. Non-obsessed observers like you can just breeze past
it.

>>>I'll take your word for it that you're not an AF apologist, though
>>>your weird defense of its use of bogus testimony in defense
>>>of its dubious theories would cause any reasonable observer
>>>to wonder.

>>You don't have to take my word for anything. I said in the same
>>or a subsequent post that I didn't accept the AF explanation,
>>that it would have been more to the point to simply dismiss the
>>accounts of Ragsdale, Anderson and Dennis at face value. To that
>>list I would add Kaufmann, and possibly others. How far does the
>>list expand? Who exaggerated what? I don't know. Do you?

>You're continuing to evade the point. You tell us you "didn't
>accept the AF explanation." So what? I never accused you of
>having a doughnut for a brain, which one would have to possess
>to believe it. Let me repeat: My point is that while you
>routinely exoriate pro- Roswell ufologists for accepting bogus
>testimony, no word of criticism passed your keyboard when the AF
>did the same.

Go back and see what an Internet thread is all about, Jerry.
After all, you once lectured someone else about the nature of
same. I trust you will agree that the nature of the world is
such that one can't be everywhere, all the time, responding to
every issue in sight. Were I the Air Force apologist that you
seem to think I am, I would have found time in my schedule to
positively review both AF Roswell reports in the MUFON Journal
or some other available venue, but you'll note that I didn't. By
your same line of reasoning, _somewhere_ we should be able to
find some of your writings or Internet postings that speak
favorably of the Air Force.

Also, your characterization of the AF report is wrong and
biased. Rather than excoriate Anderson, Dennis and Ragsdale,
they provided them possible alibis, dubious as they may be, and
I never insinuated they were anything less.

>Instead you "explained" why the AF did so, implying that its
>approach is understandable and employing a strange
>rationalization in the process: that the AF, which in its
>history has had no problem whatever accusing all sorts of UFO
>witnesses of being liars, didn't want to call Anderson, et al.,
>fabricators; therefore it chose to use their testimony as if it
>actually referred to something that happened outside their
>imaginations.

Maybe you could elaborate, with citations, on the AF history of
"accusing all sorts of UFO witnesses of being liars"? Even so,
you would have apparently overlooked my other post, which said
that now ain't then. I don't think, in this litigous age, that
the AF would go out of its way to call Roswell witnesses liars,
thereby inviting a slander suit. If you do, so be it.

>It's clear, at the least, that you hold pro-Roswell people to
>one standard, their critics to another.

>>I made no "weird defense of its use of bogus testimony."

>See above.

Indeed.

>>>>The only thing I'm apologetic for is trying to make sense of the
>>>>hopelessly muddled Roswell scenario put out by Randle and
>>>>others.

>>>And the AF theories are a model of clarity, rationality, solid
>>>evidence, and good sense?. Give us all a break.

>>Compared to what? Given that the AF is the lying, deceitful
>>bastards you seem to think they are by rote, would that make the
>>best proposed Roswell scenario any better or saner by
>>definition?

>"By rote"? These two words, alas, serve to confirm my
>darkest suspicions.

>Incidentally, I don't "seem to think" the AF is thoroughly
>untrustworthy on UFO matters. I do think this, absoutely;
>no "seems to" about it. "Lying, deceitful bastards"
>pretty much sums up my views.

Well, at least I'm glad to see that your views weren't arrived
at by rote. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume
that they weren't influenced by emotion, obsession, pro-Roswell
proclivities, and/or the avoidance of ambiguity, either. Which
just shows to go you that you know more than I do, after all.

>Meantime, Dennis, a word or two of advice:
>Better do some reading of UFO history, if you think ufologists
>like me come to this conclusion "by rote." If you honestly
>believe this -- and, if you do, the sound you hear is of my mind
>in the throes of boggling -- no wonder you take the AF
>pronouncements on Roswell to be akin to gospel truth.
>And no wonder the phrase "AF apologist" comes to mind.
>It would be unnatural, under the circumstances, if it didn't.

Yes, but I never said that I "take the AF pronouncements on
Roswell to be akin to gospel truth" -- you did.


>>I personally don't care what the AF has said or done.

>_That's_ obvious.

>>As a
>>ufologist, I'm still waiting for someone on this side of the
>>argument to give me a coherent picture of what supposedly took
>>place at Roswell in 1947. So far I haven't seen one.

>And I'm still waiting for the same from the anti-Roswell people.
>So far I haven't seen one. Meantime, I am keeping an open mind.

>Cheers,

>Jerry Clark


Please do, by all means. And I assume that includes the
possibility that the lying bastards (Army Air Force then) didn't
recover any alien bodies at Roswell? And maybe, just maybe,
didn't threaten to kill any civilians in the process. But you
would have to be a real AF apologist to believe that.

Dennis







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 12

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:14:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:09:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:13:02 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re:

<snip>

>But then he's sent out to recover a second disc and isn't even
>briefed about what to possibly expect? And no platoons of
>soldiers accompany him and Cavitt to secure the area? And
>Blanchard doesn't issue a press release about the first
>recovery, but he does for the second one? Don't talk to me about
>hypocrisy. This doesn't make a lick of sense, and you know it..

>And it has nothing to do with apologizing for the Air Force, and
>>the GAO, too, while you're at it?

>The only thing I'm apologetic for is trying to make sense of the
>hopelessly muddled Roswell scenario put out by Randle and
>others.

>Dennis

>From brumac@compuserve.com Thu Sep 10 17:24:36 1998
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:14:52 -0400
From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
Sender: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


>
>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:13:02 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re:

SNIP
>But then he's sent out to recover a second disc and isn't even
>briefed about what to possibly expect? And no platoons of
>soldiers accompany him and Cavitt to secure the area? And
>Blanchard doesn't issue a press release about the first
>recovery, but he does for the second one? Don't talk to me about
>hypocrisy. This doesn't make a lick of sense, and you know it..

>And it has nothing to do with apologizing for the Air Force, and
>>the GAO, too, while you're at it?

>The only thing I'm apologetic for is trying to make sense of the
>hopelessly muddled Roswell scenario put out by Randle and
>others.

>Dennis

I'm getting sick and tired of seeing this endless argumentation
about the veracity of Marcel, Brazel, Blanchard, and others
by the pro-Mogul faction without seeing any mention of their
"strongest" witness, Cavitt (whose name appears for
the first time in a long time in Dennis' message above).

Cavitt claimed to have been there with Marcel. He said there was
a small amount of material. Yet the pro-Mogul faction has used
Marcel's claim thatthere was a lot of material to justify, in
part, the selection of Mogul as the explanation because Mogul
balloons had a "lot of material."

I wish people would start bringing Cavitt into the discussion.
To help. I have appended a paper I wrote several years ago
enttled CAVITT EMPTOR. I wanted IUR to publish it by Mark
Rodighier wouldn't do it because I was too kind to Cavitt (I was
told).

Anyway, here it is. Let's now see whether or not the anti Mogul
faction can shred Cavitt the way the pro Mogul faction has
attempted to shred Marcel.

-------------------------

"CAVITT EMPTOR!"

by Bruce Maccabee

In September, 1994. the Air Force released a 23 page summary of
its six month investigation into the 1947 Roswell, New Mexico
UFO crash event (the "Roswell Incident"). The summary was
written by Col. Richard Weaver. According to Col. Weaver what
crashed was not a single weather balloon and radar target, as
had been claimed by the Air Force (General Roger Ramey) in July,
1947, but rather a very complex arrangement of many such
balloons and radar targets which was flown from Alamogordo Army
Airfield on June 4, 1947 and not recovered. The flight was part
of a formerly Top Secret project called Mogul. Mogul was
intended to detect nuclear explosions by listening for them at
high altitudes. Of particular importance is the fact that the
balloon and radar reflector structure which the Col. Weaver
claims was "the" Roswell crash debris was not constructed with
exotic materials. According to Weaver the only difference
between it and a normal weather balloon with a radar reflector
would have been in the quantity of balloon debris, radar
reflector materials and connecting cords, coming from perhaps
over two dozen neoprene balloons and several radar reflectors.
(The instrument package may have appeared slightly different
from the instrument package on a normal weather balloon.)

It is not my intent here to discuss the Mogul hypothesis in any
depth....since I think it is quite shallow. Instead, I wish to
examine the testimony of Sheridan W. Cavitt, who was at the time
the chief Counter-Intelligence Corps (CIC) officer at the
Roswell Army Air Base and who is "universally acknowledged to
have been involved" in the Roswell recovery. (Quote comes from
the Air Force report.) Sheridan Cavitt was interviewed by Col.
Weaver during the Air Force investigation. As I read Cavitt's
sworn statement (attachment 17 of the AF report) and the
transcript of his interview (attachment 18) I was
astonished...very astonished. There are so many inconsistencies
between his testimony and that of other witnesses that I began
to ask myself whether or not Cavitt actually visited the site
that we think of as "the" crash site. Let me show you what I
mean.

According to Cavitt's sworn statement, he and Jesse Marcel, the
base intelligence officer and Louis Rickett, another CIC
officer, all went to the crash site at the same time. He goes on
to say, "To the best of my knowledge the three of us traveled to
the aforementioned ranch land area by ourselves (that is, no
other persons, civilian or military, were with us)." In the
interview transcript he is quoted as saying "To the best of my
recollection, I never met the rancher, Brazel." This directly
contradicts Jesse Marcel who said he took "Cav" Cavitt along,
but not Rickett, and they both went with rancher "Mac" Brazel
who was, after all, the only person who knew where to find the
debris. (Note: based on reconstruction from Marcel's story, he
and Cavitt went with Brazel to the ranch late on Sunday, July 6,
1947. Marcel said they stayed overnight at the ranch, visited
the debris field on July 7 and returned to Roswell at night on
July 7.) Therefore, Cavitt's statement, exclusive of the Rickett
portion, is, by itself, hard to believe because neither Cavitt
nor Marcel could have found the site without Brazel's help.
Furthermore, Rickett said that Cavitt informed him of the crash
material after Cavitt and Marcel had returned from their visit
to the crash site. This would have been when they returned to
the Roswell base early in the morning of Tuesday, July 8. Then,
according to Rickett, he went with Cavitt and another man when
Cavitt went there for a second time later the same morning.
Rickett could not remember the name of the third man (it was
presumably not Marcel, since Marcel had been ordered to fly some
of the material to Carswell Air Force Base in Texas). In
contradiction to this statement by Rickett, Cavitt told Col.
Weaver that he didn't go to the site a second time. Cavitt also
contradicted Marcel's claim that they (Marcel and Cavitt) spent
the night with Brazel at the ranch (without any running water).
According to Cavitt's interview statement, this was "Totally
made up, fabricated or whatever. I didn't have any experiences
like that of spending the night out on the ranch."

Cavitt's sworn statement goes on to say, "When we got to
this location we subsequently located some debris which ppeared
to me to resemble bamboo type square sticks one quarter to one
half inch square, that were very light, as well as some sort of
metallic reflecting material that was also very light. I also
vaguely recall some sort of black box (like a weather
instrument). The area of this debris was very small, about 20
feet square, and the material was spread on the ground, but
there was no gouge or crater or other obvious sign of
impact." This description of the crash site is contradicted
by Marcel who said the area was very large, comparable to a
football field in size. Marcel said the arrangement of the debris
made it look as if an explosion had taken place in th air while
the object was moving rapidly and the explosion caused the
material to seem to spread or radiate outward from a small area
at one end of the debris field.

Cavitt's sworn statment continues with the most amazing
revelation of all, "I recognized the this material as being
consistent with a weather balloon." It is truly amazing that
Cavitt would claim that he recognized it as balloon debris
because there is no indication that he told Marcel of his
opinion. Why didn't Cavitt point this out to Marcel? Why did
he let Marcel think it was something special, something "ET?"
And, why didn't he tell Rickett it was debris from a weather
balloon?

Further on in the interview we find the statement, "We
gathered up some of this material, which would easily fit into
one vehicle.There certainly wasn't a lot of this material
or enough to make up crates of it for multiple airplane
flights." Marcel was explicit in indicating that there was
a lot of material, some of which filled up the two vehicles
which he and Cavitt used to drive to the Brazel ranch on
Sunday (Cavitt drove a Jeep carry-all and Marcel a '42
Buick, according to Marcel). According to Bill Brazel, "Mac"
Brazel's son, a large number of Army personel appeared at the
crash site to pick up to pick up the material which was left
behind by Cavitt and Marcel.

Cavitt continues as follows: "What Marcel did with this
material was unknown to me, although I know now from reading
about this incident in numerous books that it was taken to
the Eighth Air Force Headquarters in Fort Worth where it was
subsequently identified as a weather balloon, which I thoughnt
it was all along." Later in the statement he says, "I only wet
to this area once and recovered debris once and to the best of
my knowledge there were no other efforts to go back here. If
there were they did not involve me There was no secretive
effort or heightened security regarding this incident or any
unusual expenditure of manpower at the base to deal with it."

This claim that there was no particular effort expended to deal
with this material contradicts numerous witnesses who said that
there seemed to be a lot of activity surrounding the material.
Still further in the statement he says, "With regard to
claims that we tested this material by hitting it with hammers
without damaging it, I do not recall any of us doing so. I also
did not test this material for radioactivity with a Geiger counter
(or anything else)." Here he is in conflict with Marcel's
statement that some of the men picking up material did "test" it
by hammering on it in order to permanently dent it, by attempting
to crease it and by attempting to burn it. Marcel said they were
not able to dent it, burn it or crease it. Bill Brazel, who
collected small amounts of the material during a two year period
after the crash, said that he, too, was unable to crease or dent
it. (He didn't try to burn it.)

Then Cavitt makes a very provocative statement: "I do not
recall attempting to burn any of this debris but my wife tells
me she recalled that Jesse Marcel, his wife and son did have a
small piece that they held over the fire when we had a cookout."
If true, what happened to that piece?

Cavitt ended his sworn statement by reiterating his opinion
that it was a balloon as "I thought so at the time and think so
now," and by emphasizing that he had not been sworn to secrecy
and was not withholding any information.

So! There you have it. Marcel and Rickett and all the
others (Brazel, Brazel's neighbors, Sheriff Wilcox, Col.
Blanchard, etc.) were all wrong, victims of insufficient
education or self-delusion. They couldn't recognize the small
amount of material in a weather balloon. Instead believed that
there was a lot of material and it was exotic. Then they went
further and concluded it was from a "flying saucer."

But they were all wrong.

Cavitt, alone, realized what it was.....
a weather balloon.

At least that is what he and Col. Weaver would have you
believe.

Does this make any sense? Is is possible to explain how Cavitt's
story could be so different without assuming that it is a "tall
tale" intended to perpetuate the cover-up? I should point out
that, if Cavitt's story is part of the cover up, and if there
was an intent to be consistent with the Robert Todd/Richard
Weaver MOGUL explanation, then there was a failure of
coordination with Cavitt. He was not correctly briefed on what
he should say about the retrieved material. Cavitt SHOULD have
said he recalled a large amount of material, rubber, sticks,
etc., which seemed to him to be parts of some sort of balloon
and radar device. Oh, well.... to late now... cat's out of the
bag, as they say!

Lots of people have theorized about what happened at Roswell in
order to fill in the blanks in the history of the events; now
it's my turn. Here I am making the (charitable?) assumption that
Cavitt was telling the truth as he knew it. The reason that
there is a glimmer of "hope' that perhaps "Cav" and Marcel might
both be correct is to be found in the transcript of the
interview as opposed to the signed statement. Therein we learn
that Cavitt and his wife had arrived at the base only shortly
before the Roswell event. Weaver asked Cavitt when he was
transferred to Roswell and he couldn't remember, guessing at
first the fall of 1946, just after graduating from the Fort
Holabird (Maryland) Counter Intelligence Corps school.
Fortunately his wife was present for the interview and she
recalled that it was June, 1947, which, according to Col.
Weaver, agreed with the Cavitt's AF records.

Cavitt's response to this was "OK.. I told you my dates are
slipping my mind.... It's hard to remember July 1947. I hadn't
been there very long."Weaver asked Cavitt if he recalled the
incident in early July when "you were asked to accompany Major
Marcel to go recover the wreckage of anything?" Cavitt anwered,
"Well, there again I couldn't swear to the dates, but in that
time, which must have been July, we heard that someone had found
some debris out not too far from Roswell and it looked
suspicious. It was unidentified. So, I went out and I do not
recall whether Marcel went with Rickett and me; I had Rickett
with me. We went out to this site. There were no, as I
understand, check points or anything like that (going through
guards and that sort of garbage) we went out there and we found
it. It was a small amount of, as I recall, bamboo sticks,
reflective sort of material that would, well at first glance,
you would probably think it was aluminum foil, something of that
type. And we gathered up some of it. I don't know whether we
even tried to get all of it. It wasn't scattered; well, what I
call, you know, extensively. Like, it didn't go along the ground
and splatter off some here and some there. We gathered up some
of it and took it back to the base and I remember I had turned
it over to Marcel. As I say, I do not remember whether Marcel
was there or not on the site. He could have been. We took it
back to the intelligence room... in the CIC office." Then Weaver
asked him what he thought it was and Cavitt responded that he
thought it was a weather balloon.

Later in the interview Cavitt said he made just one trip out to
the site and he was sure it was with Rickett, but wasn't sure
about Marcel. Weaver asked if he recalled reading about the
"flying disc" in the newspaper and Cavitt said he didn't. He
only took the paper for some weather reports. At this point his
wife made a statement which leads directly to my "solution" to
understanding Cavitt's story. She said, "We were so new there.
In fact, I think I had just been there just maybe just (sic) a
few days because I had been up to my sister's wedding and I
don't think at that time we might not even have been taking the
paper.... we heard nothing. Of course, we didn't associate with
people on the base, either." In the following months and years
the Cavitt's got to know the Marcels quite well and become good
friends. One may imagine that they worked together quite often
in the months and years after "the Roswell crash."

The mutually contradictory stories could possibly be reconciled
if we assume that Jesse Marcel made one important error of
recollection: assume that Marcel was correct in claiming that he
was accompanied by a CIC agent, but incorrect in recalling him
as being "Cav" Cavitt. Perhaps Cavitt had only been on the base
for a week or so based on his wife's testimony so Marcel would
not have known him very well at that time. It is a historical
fact that when recalling the story in 1979, when he was first
extensively interviewed about this, Marcel couldn't remember
Cavitt's first name, only that he was called "Cav." Perhaps
Marcel was also confused about who actually accompanied him to
"the" crash site. Suppose that he thought it was Cavitt, whereas
in (my hypothesis) it actually was someone else, perhaps
Cavitt's predecessor or some other CIC agent at the base.

If this were true, then Cavitt was not involved with "the"
Roswell crash. But, if he were not at "the" crash site, then
what about his recollections? He clearly (assuming truthful!)
recalls finding balloon wreckage with Rickett and, possibly,
Marcel.

My suggested explanation of Cavitt's story is based on the
logical assumption that after the Roswell event was over, and
assuming it really was "unconventional," the base would have
been hypersensitized to the possibility of other crashes.
Perhaps that would also hold true for ranchers in the area.
Suppose, then, in the days or weeks following "the" incident,
some other crash reports were made and suppose that Cavitt and
Rickett and perhaps Marcel, actually went out on one of these
and did, indeed, find a balloon. That could, possibly, explain
the inconsistency between Cavitt's story and Marcel's. Years
later Marcel would remember "the" crash and assume that Cavitt
had accompanied him to the site and might forget about or ignore
the (hypothetical) crashed weather balloon because that was
unimportant, whereas Cavitt would remember the (hypothetical)
weather balloon, but not "the" crash because he wasn't at "the"
crash site. What about Rickett's story? Perhaps he didn't go to
"the" crash site after all, but only to a balloon site. Or,
perhaps, he, too, incorrectly recalled Cavitt as the CIC officer
who took him to "the" site.

Naturally I cannot say that this hypothesis is correct, only
that it might explain the conflicting testimony of three old men
trying to recall the day by day, even hour by hour, events of
thirty to forty years before. However, if this hypothesis is
correct, then it leads to a mystery of its own: who was the CIC
agent with Marcel? Could it have been Rickett, in which case
Rickett would have visited the site twice? Or was it someone
else?

If this hypothesis is not correct and we can't find another
which allows for all the witnesses to be telling the truth as
they recall it, then it would appear that the blame for the
inconsistency must be placed on Sheridan Cavitt. Is Cavitt's
story a total fabrication for reasons related to the perptuation
of the cover-up? There is, after all, one undisputable fact in
this whole story: Col. Blanchard, the Roswell (Army) Air Force
commander, did order the release of the story which said a
crashed flying saucer had been found on a ranch near Roswell and
had been retrieved by Major Jesse Marcel. Col. Blanchard was not
reprimanded for this information release (later on he was
promoted to General). Furthermore, the stories told by numerous
other witnesses tend to support the officially released story of
the crash. The story told by Sheridan Cavitt, assuming that it
applies to the same crash, is the only one that clearly
contradicts this fact.


............................................


Notes added in 1998:

1. After initial publication of this paper on the Compuserve UFO
forum and emails to interested parties on the web I got comments
back which indicated that there probably was no other CIC agent
involved, but rather Cavitt was, indeed the guy who accompanied
Marcel on the first trip to the ranch.

2. When first interviewed in 1978 and '79 Marcel could not
recall Cavitt's first name. He could only recall his nickname,
"Cav." Bill Moore and Stanton Friedman searched futilly for
information on "Cav" Cavitt. Then Loren Gross in 1980 or there
abouts, while he was searching Blue Book records in preparation
for writing what has become the most monumental history of UFOs
ever composed (!), came upon a document which provided Cavitt's
first name, Sheridan. Moore was then able to locate Cavitt. As
I recall, he found Cavitt in the 80's (don't offhand recall the
year) and visited him. Bill told me that he discussed the
Roswell case and Sheridan was a gentleman and listened to Bill's
questions, but denied all knowledge. The most interesting
aspect of that interview occurred when Sheridan left the room
for a short period of time. According to Bill, Mrs. Cavitt
leaned toward him and said something like this "He'll never tell
you anything." "Why? " asked Bill. "Because two men visited him
a couple of weeks ago." In other words, Mrs. Cavitt indicated
that her husband had been silenced. Bill went on to explain to
me that he had given a public UFO lecture several months earlier
and had mentioned that he had located Cavitt but had not yet
visited him. Could it be that someone orchestrating a cover up
had learned what Bill knew and decided to remind Mr. Cavitt of a
previously signed security oath?






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   Sep > Sep 12

                         Re: Brown Mountain Lights?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 06:08:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:51:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Brown Mountain Lights?


Dear Doc, Bob, Jerome et. al.

My personal fix on the Brown Mountain lights, much like the
Marfa lights ( and no doubt many others ) is that these mostly
result from little known but quite earthly physical causes.

One possible cause is the so-called "earthquake lights", ala'
Paul Devereux of the UK, and Michael Persinger of Canada.

I part company with Devereux/Persinger if and when they try
to explain most or all UFO sightings in these terms.

Nevertheless, some low-grade ( factory-second ) night-light
sightings could very well result from such phenomena. Rocks
under stress creating terrific electrical charges, enough to
send out "fireballs" are not so much hare-brained speculation at
all!

Its called the "piezo-electric effect". My cigarette lighter has
a little piece of quartz inside. When the little lever strikes
it, with less energy than required to light up a Zippo lighter
by far, it shoots a spark of at least 2000 volts sufficient to
light the butane fuel. It works great if I don't spill beer on
it.

Earthlights is a perfectly valid hypothesis. Its highly
interesting really _provided_ one does not try to explain the
entire weird world of UFOs with them.

My point is that I see little relevance to "true" UFOs, whatever
the heck they may be.

If a skeptic suggests that some "night-lights" over the desert
are naturally caused, I must hear him out. Even far from
geological fault lines, there must be numerous other natural
explanations.

If the same skeptic tries to explain a weird structured craft,
like the one at Vins-sur-Caramy, France in 1957 .. I must
strongly disagree.

The V-s-C. object, a 150 cm cone with waving "arms" or antennas
which rattled and magnetized two road signs in turn, seen by 2 +
1 observers. I'm surprised it isn't mentioned more often. The
psycho-social and earthlights apologists might have a difficult
time with this one.

(References on request.)

Meanwhile, I am enjoying the Dennis and Jerry show.

(No offense intended! I'm still trying to make up my own mind
what if anything may be salvaged from the "Roswell wreckage")

Best wishes to all!

- Larry Hatch

PS: I'm also enjoying the Bill Clinton show. I even made
up a tasteless little joke all by myself. -LH










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   Sep > Sep 12

                            More UFOs Over France

From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 13:47:57 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:44:51 -0400
Subject: More UFOs Over France


More French UFOs

The French National Space-agency CNES is now officially
investigating the flying disc that was seen on tuesday the 8th
of september. The UFO was seen in a village called Vorreppe in
the French Alps.

One of the witnesses documented the UFO on video.

Four other independent witnesses discribed the the same shape of
the UFO. Jean Jacques Velasco of CNES said the at first sight
the video shows a very realistic images of the UFO.

The witsnesse saw a disc of 4 or 5 meter in diameter with a red
glow around it. The object disappeared a few minutes later into
deep space in a zizzagging manner.

The CNES took a several leafs of a tree for investigating
electromagnetic radiation.

source: De Telegraaf,Amsterdam saturday 12 september 1998


----> Can anyone give me more information about that?
----> Can anyone help me to find the video of this UFO?


With regards


Jeroen Kumeling

UFO-Werkgroep Nederland
(Dutch UFO Research)
ufonet@xs4all.nl
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ufonet
tel/fax: +31 74 2425514
PO BOX 2191
7500 CD Enschede
Netherlands






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   Sep > Sep 12

              Einstein's Gravitational Theories To Be Revised?

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:16:23 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:40:35 -0400
Subject: Einstein's Gravitational Theories To Be Revised?


Source: MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.com:80/news/194205.asp

Stig

*******

Data from spacecraft doesn't add up

If readings are right, it's back to the drawing board for
Einstein

By Alan Boyle

MSNBC Sept. 9 -- Is gravity broke? Or is it just the spacecraft?
For whatever reason, far-flung probes such as Pioneer 10 and 11
are showing an anomalous slowdown effect. If the observations
are correct, that could force a revision of Einstein's theories.

THE EFFECT, reported Wednesday by New Scientist magazine, has
been showing up for years in analyses of telemetry from Pioneer
10 and 11, which were launched in the early 1970s.

"It's just recently that it became unambiguous, and we have no
explanation for it," said John Anderson, a planetary scientist
at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory and a principal investigator
on the Pioneer team.

Pioneer 10 is about 6.5 billion miles away from the sun, and
Pioneer 11 is more than 4.5 billion miles away. Anderson
explained that Pioneer 10 should have reached escape velocity
but readings from the spacecraft show that the probe is
decelerating by a tiny, constant amount.

"If this force continues, then eventually it would just stop and
fall back toward the sun," he said. "We thought this thing would
go off into interstellar space."

In fact, the Pioneer probes bear plaques that would serve as a
greeting to extraterrestrials who might happen upon them.

The "drag" also appears to affect the Ulysses spacecraft, which
is in a polar orbit around the sun, at a distance of about 490
million miles, Anderson said. An analysis of data from the
Galileo spacecraft, currently swinging around Jupiter, was less
conclusive, he said.

Anderson and his colleagues have ruled out fuel problems,
aerodynamic drag from the interstellar medium and the effects of
celestial bodies. Also, the anomaly hasn't been observed in the
movement of the planets or other objects of substantial mass in
the solar system.

Currently, Anderson said, the prime suspect in the mystery is
"something in the hardware that we haven't found" something
that would systematically skew the data coming from the
spacecraft. But the spacecraft's operators haven't been able to
find such a fault, even though they've looked for years.

If the effect is real rather than a glitch, astronomers and
mathematicians would have to tinker with gravitational theories
that have held up for decades.

"It could have cosmological significance somehow," Anderson
said. "It could be distorting space and time somehow."

For now, Anderson sees that as a "low-percentage" possibility.
He's prepared a formal paper on the anomalies that has been
accepted for publication by the Physical Review Letters. And
he's looking forward to new deep-space missions, such as the
proposed Pluto-Kuiper Express, which will have a better tracking
system and thus could provide more clues in the mystery.

"I think it will be something that we'll be working on over the
next decade," he said.







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                               Sighting Report

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:29:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:29:06 -0400
Subject: Sighting Report

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 04:11:53 -0500
To: updates@globalserve.net
From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Subject: Sighting Report


Hi All,

Got another one for ya. Again, anyone who catalogs sightings
is welcome to add this to their database. Copies of the video
footage that I took have been submitted to Budd (Hopkins) and
to ebk. I have given Errol permission to forward copies to
Nick Blaskas and Michelle Deschamps for study and analysis.
I hope Bruce Maccabee will be interested enough to give it
the old 'hairy eyeball'. I will be happy to provide either Bruce
or Jeff Sainio the original Hi8 tape for study.

The sequences were shot with a Sony 3ccd Hi8 Handycam Pro
at magnifications ranging up to 12X (the camera's maximum
magnification.) There are plenty of good reference points, ie;
roof tops, trees, etc. And (some) of the footage is rock steady
and easy to see. Yes, there are some 'jerky' hand held shots
among them but there is enough 'steady' footage to make
viewing less tortuous than watching an entire video of a white
dot against a blue background jumping all over the place.

Part of what I captured were shots of a 'cluster' of these
objects.
=========================================================
Queens, New York. Clear/still sunny day.

On Sunday August 2 beginning at 3:41 PM and lasting until
8:04 PM I recorded _several_ sequences of 'dome shaped'
(clearly circular) silvery white objects. They were sometimes
hovering,  and sometimes moving in erratic patterns. Stop/go
motions.

I will not detail the string of sightings here. If Bruce or
Jeff are interested in checking it out I will provide all
details to them. If deemed 'genuine unknowns' by the experts
I will be happy to make a detailed description to the list
at that time.

I don't post these for 'attention' or to get involved in BS
debates. I'm being responsible by reporting and offering
what I have for analysis by experts. I never ask anyone
to 'take my word' for anything. I don't have to. I got it all
on video!

Look up people. There's stuf going on over your very heads
that will change your life and how you view the world
forever more. They _are_there. Ya gotta look up though!

Peace,

John Velez, Innocent bystander

________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER





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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Jean-Luc Rivera <PSaintc798@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 12:34:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:27:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

Dear Kevin,


In a message dated 09/12/1998 8:32:38 AM, you wrote:

>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:11:47 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

<snip >

>When Stacy said that Marcel NEVER said a word about bodies, I
>pointed out that such is not the case if Nelson Marcel is to be
>believed.

<snip>

>KRandle

Thank you for very interesting post.

Please excuse my ignorance but who is Nelson Marcel ?

I would like to take this opportunity to ask you if you could
give us some details on why Mrs. Marcel Sr. testimony (she was
in the kitchen that fateful night) is not acceptable (this was
touched upon lightly in an earlier thread).

Jean-Luc Rivera








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                          Re: Brown Mountain Lights

From: Doc Landry <landryp1@home.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 04:46:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:16:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Brown Mountain Lights

Hello everyone:

I would like to thank everyone for their help with the Brown
Mountain lights. I really like that song. I will let you know
what I find as I hopefully will be heading down there in a few
weeks. Again thanks all;-)

Doc (Diane)

--
Diane Landry

Home Page: http://www.angelfire.com/sc/TruthDirectory/index.html
Ghost Page: http://www.angelfire.com/sc/docgrasshopper/index.html
Sister-site: http://www.angelfire.com/me/marganon/index.html

email: pathology@home.com
     : grasshopper@eudoramail.com

ICQ# 9406458








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                         Re: Brown Mountain Lights?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 14:11:33 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:49:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Brown Mountain Lights?


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brown Mountain Lights?
>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 98 14:02:35 PDT

>>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:24:50 -0400 (EDT)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Brown Mountain Lights?

>>>Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 20:15:15 -0400
>>>From: Doc Landry <landryp1@home.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Brown Mountain Lights....request

>>There is an old song about the lights. The refrain goes:

>>"High on the mountain, and down in the valley below,
>>It shines like the crown of an angel,
>>And fades as the mists come and go,
>>Way over yonder, night after night until dawn,
>>A faithful old slave, come back from the grave, is searching
>>for his master who is long, long gone........."

>Hi, Bob,

>It's not an "old song" in the sense of being an authentic folk
>song.  Written (I believe in the 1950s) by the late Scotty
>Wiseman (of Lulubelle and Scotty, a popular husband-and-wife
>hillbilly singing duo of the period), it became something of a
>bluegrass standard over the years.  I am particularly fond of
>versions by the Country Gentleman and the late Charlie Moore.

>Jerry Clark

I didn't know who wrote it or when, just that I'd been hearing
it all my life.  I guess that's not strictly true, though, since
I was born in 1947.  My dad was a country music DJ in my early
days, so I grew up hearing all this stuff.

Bob








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                        Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 14:07:34 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:44:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs


>From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:30:49 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

>> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:24:21 -0400 (EDT)
>> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>> From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

>Hi Bob,

>Re. 'Historical circles'

>>Agreed.  There may be earlier descriptions, but the first
>>"crop circle" I know about is the one I saw in the mid 60s.

>I don't doubt that. The circles 'phenomenon' certainly has a
>history, pre-Doug & Dave. Unfortunately in the twenty-three
>years since then, despite all the 'expert' attention we aren't
>any closer to understanding it.

>>This was not in a cultivated crop, but in a natural marshy
>>area, and the reeds were bent but not broken in a perfectly
>>circular pattern about 30 feet in diameter.

>This 'bent not broken' idea as a standard of 'genuineness' is a
>fallacy anyway, but it makes sense that moist reeds wouldn't be
>broken. That would only happen if they were dry and brittle, and
>depends on how they were flattened, even if manually.

I didn't mean to imply anything by the bent but not broken bit.
People just always ask me when I mention seeing this.

>>The people who found it associated it with a UFO landing the
>>night before, but no one actually saw a UFO during their
>>unusual experience, just a very bright light like a spotlight
>>which shined in their windows. Their dogs also were completely
>>terrifed by whatever it was outside.

>Interesting. But were the dogs really 'terrified' or just
>barking? I've met many 'terrified' farm dogs in my time, who
>were more likely frustrated that they couldn't take a bite out
>of my leg.

No, these people were dog breeders, and all the dogs were cowering
in their pins whining and moaning.  Could be as simple as a noise
too high in pitch for the humans to hear which is painful to dogs.

>>I've been asked, but simply don't recall other details like
>>whether the swirling was deosil or widdershins.

>Having expended all my intuition on looking up 'deosil'
>(deasil), I am left wondering how it would be possible to tell.
>Wouldn't it depend on which way one is facing? Unless, that is,
>the whole universe revolves around the person looking, which is
>common in cerealogy.

>Rob

I live in a Bob-centric universe, obviously. That's why I used
the alternate spelling, deosil, deo being an allusion to my
godhead. Anyway, people who are witches always want to know if
the reeds were bent deosil (clockwise) or widdershins
(anti-clockwise), since this means something important to them.
To me it depends on whether you hang above the circle and look
down on it, or look up at it from underground.

Everything is relatively relative.

Bob

BTW, I will be off line from tomorrow until the 23rd.  Going to
Germany to a photo convention.








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                        Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

From: Keith Stevens <k.stevens@virgin.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 16:38:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:39:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs


>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:06:02 -0600
>From: Bob Thrift - Institute for UFO Research <iufor@frii.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

><snip>

>3. Corn farmers tend to take a very strong proprietary interest
>in the well-being of their crop. Hoaxers and vandals, even under
>cover of darkness, are likely to be met with dogs and shotguns;

>and, in corn-growing areas, they know it. In fact, I have never
>understood why British grain growers seem to take their losses
>so calmly. Must be a cultural thing.

Hi Bob

Its a question of the law. I live in a rural farming area.I can
assure you farmers do not except any loss calmly.According to
our laws it is very hard to justify using a firearm even in self
defence, to use one against some individual ruining your grain
crop is unthinkable.

The same goes for dogs I am afraid. To use a dog as a weapon
would result in your immediate prosecution. I have many years
experience in the field of Dog Handling. An attack trained dog
is considered in the same way, very nearly, as a lethal weapon.
The penalties for the misuse of either, dog or gun, are very
severe.

Regards.







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                      Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 12:31:28 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:58:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'


>Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 00:15:39 +0200
>From: Bourdais Gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'

>>Dennis
> Let's try to say it another way since, apparently, I was not
>clear enough. What we are trying to do is to find a plausible
>explanation for the press release. Yes, it was a serious risk,
>so why did they - I mean Col. Blanchard and those who gave him
>the green light, most probably - why did they take that risk ?

>Because, perhaps, on the early morning of Tuesday 8, they had
>very good reasons to fear that the discovery of the debris field
>was going to become public. Now suppose it happened and they had
>said nothing : they would have had a very difficult time with
>the press ! [...]

Gildas,

In addition to this, has the obvious explanation yet been given
much consideration by ufologists? That is, peel away 50 years of
UFO sightings and reports worldwide and realize that back in
mid-1947 the UFO phenomenon was scarcely yet known, of which
governments would initiate plans for hiding the evidence and
covering up or falsifying the reports. So aren't the odds
substantial that some naive military personnel would have
reported the facts honestly, blurting out the truth, before
superiors had had time (give them at least a day) to formulate a
policy that would withhold unacceptable information like this
from the public?

One crashed, alien-like vehicle and a debris field is a far cry
from an Orson Welles' type invasion from Mars, and so may not
have seemed necessary by a lower ranking officer at the time to
be falsified. Or is it believed that there was sufficient
UFO-type activity during WWII, or between June 24th and July 4,
1947, to have caused the U.S. government to have already
initiated a secret policy of UFO coverup well before 4 July,
1947, which would be known down to the level of 1st lieutenant?

Jim Deardorff







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                          Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #270

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 13:40:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:55:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #270


Apology to MW #270 (For September 12, 1998)

Bill's another reason that the saucers keep their distance, but
it's not, of course, the reasons you assume. We are acting
plainly stupid with our desultory thinking; there are reasons we
can easily subsume. It's not the lurid details (only lurid
estimation) that offends the wounded egos of our time -- it's
the fact we're even _looking_ that offends my honest heart . . .
that we're rooting in our _private lives_ -- a crime!

Bill is just a sample of the way things, then, could be if we
ran amuck and trashed our private lives! If nothing, then, was
sacred and we lost our precious space -- to pay _too_ dear for
error, and for all our sad mistakes? Of course he'd keep it
quiet! Of course he'd tell a lie! The punishment won't fit the
crime! I'll spit this in your eye! You want a good equivalence?
It's a boy to lose his hand for a hunger he was feeling, so a
loaf not his he had. You're asking that Bill lose his hand for
bread not even _stolen_. T'were me I'd tell you "kiss my ass,"
-- _ignore_ your charmless scolding.

At least Clinton's not like Nixon, who had some *different* sex!
He abused authority -- suborned big lies you bet; but, HE's an
elder statesman when he shouldha' got the net! At least
Clinton's not like Reagan whose not smart enough for sex, but a
propaganda nightmare took control away from THREATS. He fronted
for the drug cartels to cripple and defeat, he funneled guns and
money where the profits can't be beat. At least Clinton's not
like Bush-man, and his clan of rabid sons! Their mad
deregulation of the S&L's is done. He pealed back the profits of
our dear old mom's and dad's! He stole the money outright! HE
HAS IT IN HIS HANDS! Compared with what's before him  (and even
Carter sinned in heart!) Bill's a saint of driven snow, and THAT
is just a start!

And what about this list that's published (EVEN on Jeff Rense)?
The one that points to murder of some folks -- lacks common
sense? And it _may_ be that these were folks that TRULY had been
killed to further Bill's discretion where his needs were met and
filled. But what's not done is pains _like_ took for lists of
_other_ Presidents. Who died for Tricky Dickey? Who's on THAT
list, not evident. Who died for Ronny Raygunzzzzz-zap in
corruptions spanning continents! They say he's in dementia . . .
covers questions he's incontinent! And what of all those Bush
men -- "all for profit -- all for one". Who dies for strange
convenience while they run their unjust guns? And it may _be_
Bill tops the list -- that HE's the heinous charmster, but I'd
bet you even money that it's their list hides the monster.

And the rabid, twitchy faces of the brainless, guilty press --
their faces hot and bothered, as they ask their questions --
pests. The world rots within -- without . . . we're setting off
more nukes; Russia's in the toilet; North Koreans shake their
dukes; we're in overpopulation; global warming floods the
coasts; Nancy checks astrologers distracted by her ghosts.
Economies in free fall, while the sea's begin to fry; El Nino
changed the oceans, and the frogs begin to die. Sick estuaries,
cells from hell, truthful news from Rense and Bell -- all this
stuff . . . there's something to it -- they don't cop or listen
to it. Salacious with anticipations that rake the muck's
imagination, glowing like bad Crumb cartoons, they pander up to
lust like loons. Hands within their furtive pockets, grappling
with their plugs and sockets, lost behind an axe to grind they
treat you like YOU'RE senseless, blind!!

_Grown women_ having unforced sex should make the world blow up
or down? THAT'S ALL WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT? . . . so full of
fecal matter, that blue eyes are dung heap brown!

Faced with all this *abstinence* that flies up in our face, the
saucers hold positions well _outside_ detection's trace.
Distracted by our genitals that we _shall_ not understand, we
cleave to false traditions, and we hate our lustful glands. And
case in point -- our lusts/desires go on beyond millennia by 3.5
(quaint) billion years, (on Earth alone) . . . in spite a'ya.
Our thinking is _this_ century, and LIKELY flawed, you see? The
saucers are forever; Bill's just yesterday, to me.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

. . . the preceding while knowing that Bill is an alternate arm
of the same sociopathic beast. It's the reason I have such
monumental difficulty voting -- it's only a more heavily veiled
vote that was cast in the bad old soviet union; the whole
process is contrived, candidates chosen, smart (read privileged)
money spent. . .the electoral college, a gross collection of
good old boys, is in place to subvert a *popular* vote that goes
wrong, after all . . . so it's all a sham and a distraction, a
subversion now abundantly subsumed. I can't defend what
occurred, but I can certainly protest the amount to which I have
been made aware of it, and that I found out about it at all! If
it was me, the whole lot of you could check the mistletoe on my
shirt tail; as for Bill, he should have inoculated everyone for
future surprise when he told us that he didn't inhale.

C'mon people -- the _cure for this imbroglio could be much worse
than a *disease* that is likely _imaginary_ to begin with!!!

And finally, for my money, when given the choice between someone
that has sex, and someone who WILL NOT . . . well, (heh!) my
vote is for the _former_ over the _latter_ in every case!


--
Explore the Alien View?
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 7 September>

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.








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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:18:03 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:05:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:11:47 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


Kevin,

Thanks for your measured, non-name calling response, compared to
some of the others. At some point we'll all go back to our
steady day jobs -- assuming we have one.

When I said Marcel had never mentioned bodies, he hadn't, as far
as I was aware. The reference you cite is relatively new, and I
thank you for drawing it to my attention. It still strikes me as
odd, given the number of times that he was interviewed, that he
wouldn't have mentioned bodies, given that they would have
substantiated his claims that the debris he also saw was not of
the earth.

My slice of military "experience" was not meant to suggest that
Marcel could have never been bypassed. I simply don't see how he
could not have known, given everything that you have going on at
the base prior to the second recovery, i.e., base alert, a
massive recovery of material, autopsies of bodies and so on.

I'm not a military man, but if all this were going on, I think
the painter would have been escorted off base, especially if it
were on alert, until things cooled down. And why was he working
on the July 4th weekend, anyway?

As for the fire department, you say you saw records that
indicated they went outside the city limits in 1947. I may as
well ask the obvious: did the records indicate a fire outside
the city on the date Frankie Rowe indicated, or were those
records missing?

Someone who presumably didn't stumble across the bodies was
Joseph Montoya, the Lt. Governor. Are we to assume that Marcel,
the base intelligence officer, had no need to know about the
recovered saucer and bodies from the first site, but that
Montoya did?

You're right, Kevin, I don't know how the military mind works.

As for Blanchard, there are press releases and PRESS RELEASES, I
think you would grant. Obviously, he wouldn't have consulted
higher headquarters before announcing a 4th of July picnic. The
point is that it's hard to imagine how, after having seen the
material Marcel had in hand, and presumably debriefing him, he
issued the specific release that he did.
That's all.

Dennis







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 13

                         Re: Brown Mountain Lights?

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 16:19:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:17:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Brown Mountain Lights?


>Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 06:08:20 -0700
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Mountain Lights brownout.

>Its called the "piezo-electric effect". My cigarette lighter has
>a little piece of quartz inside. When the little lever strikes
>it, with less energy than required to light up a Zippo lighter
>by far, it shoots a spark of at least 2000 volts sufficient to
>light the butane fuel. It works great if I don't spill beer on it!


Hi Larry,

For what it's worth, I once checked that little device out on my
own DVM and got roughly 40kv.

It's a good theory. My only problem is, when the San Andreas
fault lets go from time to time, one would think the amount of
rock crushing and grinding that occurs would have the entire
line lit up like a christmas tree, with "UFOs" flying all over the
place. Doesn't seem to happen that way though.

Greg






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 13

                        RAF Feltwell - UFO Trackers?

From: Gerry Lovell <ed@farshore.force9.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 10:43:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:35:17 -0400
Subject: RAF Feltwell - UFO Trackers?


Source: The People [London]
Date: Sept 13 1998
Header: Top-Secret Base Spies on Aliens

This is the top secret airforce base which a former defence
chief believes is used to spy on alien activity above Britain
[photo' shows two radomes positioned close to perimeter fence at
RAF Feltwell -- G=AC ].

Lord Hill-Norton, chief of the defence staff in the Seventies,
is convinced that a United States Air Force squadron in Suffolk
[on the Norfolk/Suffolk County border and 70 crow miles NNE of
London -- G=AC ] is tracking UFOs which may threaten Earth.

"There's something fishy at the base and I am puzzled," he told
me. "I have asked a number of questions about the base and never
get a satisfactory answer."

The Ministry of Defence did admit that RAF Feltwell has a
special US unit "tracking man-made objects in deep space".

But it refused to answer Hill-Norton's question about how many
objects "remain unidentified and how many of these were
transmitting a signal" citing the need for secrecy.

An MoD spokesman said: "We are entitled to refuse certain
information on topics which we consider to be sensitive."

But he did admit that UFOs would be tracked if they were
spotted.

"They need to catalogue everything up in space," he added.

Officially, the US 5th Space Surveillance Squadron is part of
Britain's early warning system to protect against missile attack
from space.

But Lord Hill-Norton will not accept that it is there purely to
defend us against earthling enemies.

"For a start, there are no man-made objects in inter-stellar
space. So I want to know what they are really doing.

"And I want to know what the Government is doing about the UFO
problem.

"There are things flying about in our atmosphere and we don't
know what they are, who directs them or what their purpose might
be. We ought to know."

Lord Hill-Norton believes that UFOs are the product of
"extra-terrestrial intelligences".

He added: "There is overwhleming evidence that there are
physical objects in Earth's atmosphere and they are not
man-made."

-- end --

***************** via *****************
   Gerry @ Far Shores Website
 http://www.farshore.force9.co.uk
***************************************







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   Sep > Sep 13

                             Chat with Bob Dean

From: "Yvonne Hedenland" <vonni_h@email.msn.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 13:48:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:08:55 -0400
Subject: Chat with Bob Dean


Join the UFO Forum with Bob Dean for a live
chat on Tuesday, September 15th at 6pm, PT.

>From 1963 to 1967 Dean served at Supreme
Headquarters Allied Powers Europe (SHAPE),
NATO as an intelligence analyst with a Cosmic
Top Secret clearance.

It was while he was stationed at SHAPE that his interest
in UFOs first started. One night, while on duty, Robert
removed a file from SHAPE's security vault called "The
Assessment; An Evaluation of Possible Military Threat to
Allied Forces in Europe". This file was given the highest
security classification, COSMIC TOP SECRET. It retains
that security classification to this day. The contents of
this file opened Robert's eyes to the existence of UFOs
and extraterrestrial intelligence.

He has, since reading "The Assessment", dedicated his
life to one goal: Bringing to light the true facts
surrounding the UFO phenomenon and contact with
extraterrestrial intelligence.

In our new audio interview with Dean he discusses his
own reactions as well as those of others who have seen
this unusual document.

This chat is available at http://forums.msn.com/UFO
The Briefing Room chat can be accessed by any IRC
client. The chat server name is publicchat.msn.com
and the room or channel name is #briefing.







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   Sep > Sep 13

                  Voreppe UFO Video, French Press Coverage

From: Sean Jones <Tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:43:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:06:05 -0400
Subject: Voreppe UFO Video, French Press Coverage

France probes UFO sighting captured on videotape
  (Reuters; 09/11/98)

PARIS (Reuters) - France's National Center for Space Studies
said Friday it was investigating a reported sighting of an
unidentified flying object in the Alpine village of Voreppe
after a witness videotaped the phenomenon.

The videotape shows "a dark form that looks like it is floating
and then moves away in a curious way," CNES expert Jean-Jacques
Velasco told Reuters after viewing the videotape and conducting
initial interviews with witnesses.

He said four individuals in three different groups had reported
seeing the object over a period of several minutes.

They said they initially sighted it perched on the top of a tree
at dusk on Sept. 8.

Two of the individuals were quite near the tree while a third,
about 50 yards away, had the presence of mind to quickly run
into his house, grab a video camera, and film the mysterious
object as it flew off, he said.

Based on the videotape and preliminary witness accounts, Velasco
said the object appeared to be "a round disc, four to five
meters (yards) across, with a few protuberances coming out of it
and a red ring around its base."

The space center said in a statement it was beginning its
investigation by attempting to verify that the tape was genuine.

It was also trying to check out the witnesses and examine the
tree where the object was said to have perched, whose leaves
would be tested for signs of elevated levels of electromagnetic
radiation.

Asked how many UFO probes opened by the CNES had been closed
without an explanation, he responded, "You could count them on
the fingers of
one hand."

 (Reuters/Wired)


{Reuters:Wired-0911.00405}   09/11/98
---
In an infinite universe inifinitely anything is posible.
   Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
 Research page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/






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   Sep > Sep 13

                      'Pulsar' Newsletter - Issue No. 1

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 22:33:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:57:51 -0400
Subject: 'Pulsar' Newsletter - Issue No. 1


Welcome to the first issue of 'Pulsar', a newsletter which will
provide the latest news and in-depth analysis of the UK's 'X-Files'.

Also featured will be reports from further afield and exclusive,
revealing interviews.

Predominately, although not entirely Internet based, 'Pulsar' will
include pointers to data 'on-line' and make full use of the extensive
information resources available.

Whether claims of extraterrestrial contact, secret aircraft, 'crop
circles' or legendary creatures, 'Pulsar' will examine the scientific
evidence that something unknown is conceivably 'out there'.



James Easton.
E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


CONTENTS

1. The 'Rendlesham forest' affair. Ministry of Defence employee Nick
Pope enters the fray.

2. The 'Alien Autopsy' footage: still 'alive and kicking'?

3. The 'Kewper' caper. Why latest claims of grand conspiracy fall at
the first hurdle.

4. 'Area 51': an in-depth perspective from one of the secret US base's
most experienced researchers.

5. Japanese 'fugo' balloons: recollections of the US government's
successful cover-up.

6. UK Public Record Office releases details of 'Project 119L', a
secret US Air Force spy balloon program based in Scotland.

7. AOL finds the mere mention of 'RAF Bentwaters' objectionable.

8. New material of interest on the World Wide Web.


[Editorial notes are in square brackets]


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


Much of my own recent research and that of science writer Ian Ridpath
has concerned the UK's most celebrated 'X-File', a purported 'UFO
landing' in Rendlesham forest, near the joint RAF Bentwaters and RAF
Woodbridge base in Suffolk, just after Christmas 1980.

As recently announced, an update on developments in the 'Rendlesham
forest' case, summarised in a report entitled, 'Resolving Rendlesham:
New Insights and Past Claims Examined', has now been published on my
web site at -

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/cover2.htm


The report is a follow-up to 'Rendlesham Unravelled', published in
March, 1998 -

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/cover.htm

This disclosed for the first time ever, the existence of the original
witness statements and what they revealed. Although lengthy, it was
published by French magazine, 'Ph=E9nom=E8na' and the story featured in
the local Suffolk newspaper, 'East Anglian Daily Times', on April 30,
1998 -

"Servicemen 'chased a lighthouse' admission"

http://www.ecn.co.uk/e_ed_ufo_RendleshamChasingLighthouse.htm


The update covers a number of issues, including:

- A response to relevant points raised by author Jenny Randles in a
recent magazine article

- A central witness, cited in Col. Halt's memo to the Ministry of
Defence (MoD), refutes that he saw a 'craft' as claimed

- Published for the first time, Halt explains the reason why the dates
in his memo to the MoD were mistaken

- His detailed explanation of the perspective which led him to believe
the Orford Ness lighthouse was not the 'unusual light' witnessed and
why Halt may inadvertently be proving the reverse

- Sightings of 'strange flashing red lights' within Rendlesham forest
and how their origins have been proven

- Ian Ridpath's recent exhaustive explanation to MoD employee Nick
Pope, of why the 'radiation readings' were of no consequence

- The Cosmos 749 Soviet satellite recovery theory and why it is
baseless.


Photographs and detailed maps of the area are also provided.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


In a statement dated 27th August, Nick Pope comments on these latest
developments -

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/aug/m28-006.shtml

"As many readers of this statement will be aware, I work for the
Ministry of Defence, and between 1991 and 1994 was responsible for
researching and investigating the UFO phenomenon for the British
Government".

Nick was an 'Executive Officer', a standard and common Civil Service
'middle-management' grade between 'Clerical Officer' and 'Higher
Executive Officer', working for Secretariat(Air Staff)2a, also known
as Sec(AS)2a.

Clarifying the views which he held, Nick perhaps did this best in a
letter dated 23 February 1996, sent to one of the UK's leading
researchers, Paul Fuller, with permission to publish in Paul's
excellent magazine 'The Crop Watcher' [issue 27]. Nick wrote:

"Dear Paul, Thank you for your letter dated 30 January, concerning the
various comments that have been made about the status of some of my
public statements about UFOs and crop circles.

I should make it abundantly clear that the views I am expressing are
my own, and should not be taken as representing the official policy
or views of the Ministry of Defence, the British Government, or any
other agency. I made this point at the beginning of my New Hampshire
MUFON [Mutual UFO Network] lecture last year, and there will be a
similar disclaimer at the beginning of my book.

I think I can see where some confusion may have arisen. Before I gave
my lecture, I submitted a copy of my text to Secretariat (Air Staff).
They asked me to make a few changes, largely aimed at clarifying this
distinction between my personal views and Departmental policy. This
consultation may have been seen by some as implying a degree of
official sanction. However, I think you can safely say that the
Department as a whole does not share my views on UFOs and crop
circles. Indeed, these views have made me very unpopular in certain
quarters".


A belief that 'crop circles' are made by highly evolved
extraterrestrials, whose formerly primitive corn-flattening skills
have improved in parallel with their human counterparts, is a litmus
test of any critical thinking.


In an interview given to Clas Svahn, journalist and chairman of 'UFO
Sweden', Nick elaborated on the Government's perceived importance of
his position; "It was very difficult. The first thing to understand
is - the whole job that I did had been really treated with no
importance. It was absolutely a very limited resourced post. So it was
just one person trying to do his best with a 300, or so, reports each
year".

Nick now states, "While my involvement with the Rendlesham Forest case
came long after the events concerned, I had an advantage over other
researchers in that I was approaching the case from a unique angle,
having access to the official government file on the incident, and
being able to call upon official resources and expertise".

During an interview published in the July/August 1996 issue of 'UFO
Magazine' (UK), he spoke about the departmental evidence:

"The standard line on Rendlesham Forest is that the incident was
looked into, and nothing of defence significance was uncovered.

The challenge, as it were, to the department, is that we have never
seen the analysis".

Asked, 'But many people want to know: who did this analysis? And on
what basis did the Ministry conclude there was no threat?", he
replied, "These are questions you might want to pose to Sec(AS)2a!".

Indeed, of the MoD's actions following receipt of Halt's memo, Nick
stated, "My best assessment of what happened next is - absolutely
nothing! The report was written on the 13th January and when it
arrived at Whitehall, whoever was doing the job didn't have the
faintest idea what to do with it, probably took one look at it and
said, 'what am I supposed to do?'. I'm afraid to say it simply ended
up in a file".

If he had never seen any documentation concerning the Ministry's
analysis of the case and could only speculate what might have happened
when Halt's memo was received back in 1981, perhaps Nick can clarify
his justification for now claiming he had access to "the official
government file on the incident".


Contrary to Nick's conjecture that Col Halt's memo "simply ended up
in a file", is the information provided to myself last year by Gaynor
South at Secretariat(Air Staff)2a1a. She wrote:

"You have questioned whether the Ministry of Defence thoroughly
investigated the events which are alleged to have taken place at RAF
Woodbridge/Rendlesham Forest. From Departmental records available for
the period in question, we have established that all available
information was looked at at the time by air defence experts who were
satisfied that nothing had occurred to suggest that the UK Air Defence
Region had been breached by unauthorised foreign military activity on
the nights in question. In the absence of evidence corroborating Col
Halt's memo, which was sent some two weeks after the events in 1980,
and in the light of the Department's air defence remit, no action was
then deemed necessary".

This seems to be a categorical assurance that "Departmental records
available for the period in question" do exist and substantiate that
Halt's report was investigated.

By Nick's previous admissions, the existence of any Ministry file was
on a 'need to know' basis, and the facts seem to confirm he didn't
have any.


It's appreciated that Nick writes, "James Easton and Ian Ridpath
should be commended for highlighting some intriguing new material and
for stimulating constructive debate on this case", however, we have
to wonder if Nick has actually read that material.

If so, he should realise that the original witness statements recently
uncovered have proven that the three US Air Force security police
officers who first observed 'strange lights', pursued an unidentified
light for some TWO MILES, before realising it was the 'beacon light'
from a local landmark.

However, he says, "returning to the theory that all the UFO sightings
were misidentifications of the Orford Ness lighthouse or the Shiplake
[should be 'Shipwash'] Lightship, or even of stars, and that the
indentations in the clearing were caused by burrowing rabbits! When
I met Charles Halt he was dismissive of this, and confirmed that he
and other witnesses were familiar with the lighthouse...".

This is obsolescent, overtaken by the recently published evidence and
it's not clear why Nick references it. Similarly, he states:

"When seeking expert analysis on a case such as this, one really
cannot obtain a more authoritative view than that of Admiral of the
Fleet The Lord Hill-Norton, a former Chief of the Defence Staff and
Chairman of the NATO Military Committee. With the greatest respect to
the sceptics, Lord Hill-Norton is considerably better qualified to
analyse an incident such as this".

Lord Hill-Norton might be better qualified if he had actually seen the
original witness affidavits or any of the evidence now available. As
he hasn't, to my knowledge, he is consequently infinitely less
qualified and informed than I'm sure he would care to be.

Aside from which, Lord Hill-Norton's 'analysis' is effectively that
either something physical occurred, or there were grave misperceptions
and in either event, it was of defence significance.

No disagreement about that.

The views of the actual participants, especially Halt, on the
fundamental revelations about the misidentified lighthouse, why that
was never previously disclosed, or the many anomalies in later witness
recollections, etc. would have been meaningful, rather than allusions
to comments long since superseded by facts.


Again despite the new understandings published in 'Resolving
Rendlesham', Nick brings up the evidence which most convinced him that
there was some substance to the 'Rendlesham forest' affair, stating,
"Then we have radiation readings which, irrespective of how high they
were, just happened to peak where the trees were damaged and in the
very centre of the indentations".

Trusting Nick means, 'irrespective of how small they were', Ian
Ridpath tells me that having obtained a relevant opinion from the
National Radiological Protection Board (NRPB), as detailed in
'Resolving Rendlesham', he has since advised Giles Cowling at DERA
Radiation Protection Services (DRPS). Ian confirms:

"When informed by me of these additional facts, Giles Cowling of DRPS,
Nick Pope's original source for the '10 times background' claim,
changed his opinion. He wrote to me again on August 21, 'I share the
NRPB view that the use of a high-range survey instruments to measure
(accurately) environmental levels of radiation is somewhat
questionable and this must throw some doubt on the validity of the
data reported'."


I believe this issue can be finally laid to rest by analysing what was
recorded on Col. Halt's microcassette. Using the hand-held recorder,
he documented his team's investigation of the area where some believed
'ground indentations' had been found in the forest.

Extracting all of the readings, the location [L] is first given,
followed by the Geiger counter measurement [M]:

[L] "approaching the area within about 25, 30 feet"

[M] "just minor clicks"


[L] at the 'impressions'

[M] "about third, fourth mark"


[L] "second pod indentation"

[M] "this one's dead"


[L] "the third one"

[M] "some residual - a little pulse"


[L] "center of the area"

[M] "best deflection of the needle I've seen yet"
"we're getting rad at half a millirem""up towards seven...just jumped
up towards seven tenths"
"seven units, let's call it, on the point five scale"


[L] "getting in close to one pod"

[M] "up to two, three units deflection"
"still not going above three or four units"
"picking up more, though - more frequent"


[L] "on the tree...from on the side facing the suspected landing site"

[M] "four clicks max"


[L] the other side of the tree, facing away from the 'landing site'

[M] "there's no clicks whatsoever"
"...maybe one or two..."


[L] "some type of abrasion or something in the ground" [in the
'center'area]

[M] "we get a high radioactive reading... about, er... deflection of,
er, two to three, maybe four, depending on the point of it"


[L] "heading about 110, 120 degrees from site out through to the
clearing now"

[M] "still getting a reading on the meter, about two clicks"
"needle's jumped, three to four clicks, getting stronger"


[L] "just crossed a creek"

[M] "getting three good clicks on the meter"


[L] "in the center of the [farmer's] field"

[M] "negative readings"


[L] "at the far side of the second farmer's field"

[M] "picking up slight readings, four or five clicks now, on the
meter"
[End]


Was the far side of the farmer's field therefore much more
'radioactive' than the centre?

According to the levels being 'detected', it must have been.

At 'five clicks', the field was also more 'radioactive' there than the
'indentations' and more so even than the trees where Nick Pope
believes the 'trace evidence' peaked, the highest reading for both
being confirmed on tape as 'four clicks'.

His 'hot spot' in the centre of the 'indentations' produced "up
towards seven" clicks, however, the farmer's field registered "four
or five", a difference of, say, 'up to two' clicks, a minute variance
between readings which were already so small as to be inconsequential.

I hope this finally dissuades Nick's persistence that the clicks on
Sgt. Monroe Neville's Geiger counter were remotely significant, or as
Nick once wrote, "the most tangible proof that something extraordinary
happened there".

Otherwise, he is challenged to offer the requisite explanation why a
farmer's field in rural England was only marginally less 'radioactive'
than the purported nearby landing site of our extraterrestrial
visitors.


Nick reminds us that, "as he explained on the 'Strange But True'
documentary on the case, Halt stated, 'A lighthouse doesn't move
through the forest; the lighthouse doesn't go up and down, it doesn't
explode...".

Strictly, the program was named 'Strange But True?'. As learned
Australian researcher John Stepkowski once reminded me, that question
mark is important.

The lighthouse beacon and beam do of course move and perceptions of
the former were known to be deceptive as viewed through the forest
trees, especially when the observer was also in motion.

So how to explain the perceived exploding light.

The answer may be that it just never happened.

In an interview with American journalist Salley Rayl, published in the
April 1994 issue of OMNI magazine, Halt recalled:

"All of a sudden, directly to the east, we saw an unusual red,
sun-like light-oval shaped, glowing, with a black center - 10 to 15
feet off the ground, moving through the trees. Beyond the clearing was
barbed wire fence, farmer's field, house, and barn. The animals were
making a lot of noise.

We ran toward the light up to the fence. It shot over the field and
then moved in a 20 to 30 degree horizontal arc. Strangely, it appeared
to be dripping what looked like molten steel out of a crucible, as if
gravity were some how pulling it down. Suddenly, it exploded - not a
loud bang, just booompf - and broke into five white objects that
scattered in the sky".

It's an anecdote he has since repeated, however, the recollection is
not supported by what was actually recorded on his microcassette at
the time:

"OK, we're looking at the thing, we're probably about two to three
hundred yards away. It looks like an eye winking at you. Still moving
from side to side. And when you put the Starscope [image intensifier]
on it, it sorta has a hollow center, a dark center, it's like a pupil
of an eye looking at you, winking.

And it flashes so bright to the Starscope that it almost burns your
eye".
[Recording stops]

[Recording continues]
"We've passed the farmer's house and are crossing the next field and
now we have multiple sightings of up to five lights with a similar
shape and all but they seem to be steady now rather than a pulsating
or glow with a red flash".


No 'exploding' light mentioned - surely something Halt would have
committed to tape - and there's now up to five lights visible, with
no remarks about five white objects having dissipated.

A further indication that these lights may be the same five which Halt
later remembered as having come from an 'exploding' light, is that he
doesn't seem to have mentioned the 'multiple sightings of up to five
lights with a similar shape' in any subsequent account, only the five
lights which he remembers as having dispersed.

Author Jenny Randles, who has researched the 'Rendlesham forest' case
since the story first broke, theorises that these particular 'lights'
may simply have been stars.


Those who remain convinced that the 'pulsing light' was evidence of
a 'higher intelligence' have to rationalise why it 'blew up' and also
explain why, if it had done so, Halt later recorded:

"We're at the far side of the second farmer's field and made sighting
again about 110 degrees. This looks like it's clear off to the coast.
It's right on the horizon. Moves about a bit and flashes from time to
time. Still steady or red in color".

This subsequent sighting is also seemingly never mentioned by Halt in
the story of the detonating light.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


Meantime, in the UK's other prestigious ET encounter - London
businessman Ray Santilli's 'alien autopsy' footage, recent accusations
of foul play and Ray's refutation can be seen at -

http://www.uforeport.com/tent_footage.html

We still await any proven basis to Philip Mantle's allegations that
the 'tent footage' component was a hoax, filmed in the UK.


A comprehensive and factually correct account of the extraordinary
'alien autopsy' story and a full explanation of the 'tent footage' and
it's connection, can be found at -

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/autopsy.htm


I spoke to Ray Santilli recently and enquired, "Philip Mantle had seen
a copy of the 'tent footage' which was 'crystal clear' and which would
possibly have allowed the persons shown to be identified. Could this
be made available to assist with resolving the entire issue?

"He explained, "What Philip saw was the film I got back from the
studio. It was never very clear but OK".

Asked, "Isn't it possible to determine the providence of the 'tent
footage' video, simply by comparing the images against those on the
claimed 'archive' 16mm film?", he responded, "Yes, but I do not have
the film any longer".

I also queried the current status of the unseen footage and the
'cameraman':

"You have given the occasional indication that the 'first autopsy'
footage, i.e., the film which has never been broadcast in public and
which apparently Volker Spielberg [a German business associate]
effectively owns, would some day be released.

Can you say what the overall situation is now with regard to the
unseen footage and the 'cameraman?'"

"I am sorry but it hasn't changed", he confirmed.


Theresa Carlson's impeccable and dedicated image analysis which
supports conclusions that the film is exceptional special effects
(SFX) work, is available at -

http://www.uforeport.com/Shadow.html


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


Ray's 'alien autopsy' features in 'UFOs & EBEs: More Insider
Evidence', an article by Linda Moulton Howe published in the
August-September '98 issue of 'Nexus' Magazine -

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/aug/m10-008.shtml

[EBE =3D 'Extraterrestrial Biological Entity']

Linda claims, "This testimony from a former US Army Signal Corps and
CIA officer is the latest to confirm that the US government and
military are withholding the facts about extraterrestrial craft and
biological entities".

The reported testimony misses little in encompassing contemporary
'UFO' lore - 'reverse engineering' of 'flying saucers', an alien kept
in captivity at 'Area 51', the nefarious CIA/FBI/etc. 'cover-up', the
'Roswell alien autopsy', people being abducted by aliens, 'cattle
mutilations' and 'particle beam weapons' being used to shoot down
passing ET spaceships.

The aliens were, understandably, somewhat miffed about the latter and
destroyed a US aircraft base with 'death rays'.

By any standards of far-fetched tales, this is pretty good going.


Many of those with an interest in the subject of 'UFOs' and a rational
dialogue on the possibilities of evidence for contact by any cosmic
neighbours, even if only considered to be theoretical, have been
dismayed by the publication of accusations such as these, always
devoid of tangible evidence or provenance and which plague aspirations
that the subject matter will ever be viewed as worthy of scientific
credence.

Arguably the champion of tall-tales was William (Bill) Cooper and it's
perhaps appropriate, if not a little bizarre, that Linda gives her
'informant' the pseudonym of 'Kewper'.

The imprisoned alien almost inevitably communicated 'telepathically',
with 'Kewper' recalling of their captors, "They said they definitely
weren't hearing a thing through their ears and that the voice they
heard more or less was right in the mind itself. They could put their
fingers in their ears and they would still hear the being. One tried
that; he plugged both ears to see if he could still hear the being,
and he could".

'Kewper' also claims that in 1958 he visited 'Area 51' and saw an
entity which was identical to the current archetypal depiction of an
alien. He states, "Most of the time they referred to the one out there
as a 'grey'.

One can only surmise how the 'creature' was known as a 'grey', when
that terminology had yet to be invented.


Asked by Linda to describe his experience at Area 51, 'Kewper'
replied:

"We were out there for a meeting of all the CIA people around this
country and over towards the Far East and so on, and we had the
meeting there at Area 51.

[...]

They took us down about 10 miles away, something of that nature, and
stopped at the first special area. And they took us into the area
there, and they had U-2s and also the SR-71 Blackbirds I believe they
were flying them at that time".

The SR-71 wasn't in fact deployed at Groom Lake until 1967 and in 1958
even it's look-alike predecessor, the A-12, was several years away
from making an appearance there.


Linda asks, "More than 50 years after the 1947 Roswell incident, a
major question is: What do the United States, England, Australia other
American ally government insiders and, according to Kewper, even
Russia know which sustains the Orwellian policy of silence and denial
in which lies are ordered to become official truth?...as written so
strongly in SOM1-01, the Majestic12 Group Special Operations Manual
of April 1954...".

The 'Special Operations Manual' or 'SOM-1', was yet another
anonymously mailed document, which could easily have been produced on
a home computer set-up.

Historical researcher Jan Aldrich has comprehensively demonstrated
that the 'SOM-1' documents are evidently phoney, citing over 50
reasons why -

Special Operations Manual 1-01
- Parts 1 - 4

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1996/dec/m18-001.shtml
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1996/dec/m18-003.shtml
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1996/dec/m18-008.shtml
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1996/dec/m19-004.shtml


Perhaps the most obvious clue is that the documents, supposedly dating
from 1954, refer to the Groom Lake base as 'Area 51', a name by which
it is now commonly known. However, it wasn't apparently designated as
'Area 51' until at least 1958, as Dave Bethke explains:

"Watertown Strip, Paradise Ranch, Dreamland, The Box, Detachment 3.
Why so many names, where did they come from, and how did this name
game start?

During World War II, this rectangular plot of land with extreme
security had no name. It was just a small part of the Army Air Force
bombing and gunnery range that covered much of southern Nevada and was
regularly bombed and strafed by pilots training out of Nellis Army Air
Field. There was an emergency landing field, still visible today on
satellite photos, just east of Groom dry lake. Its stayed that way
into the 1950's, even as the Atomic Energy Commission was developing
the Atomic Proving Grounds in an area of the Nellis range to the
south-west of Groom Lake. But all that changed in 1955 when the CIA
wanted a spy plane to make flights over the U.S.S.R. and awarded a
contract to Lockheed's Advanced Development Projects, better known as
the Skunk Works, to build the plane which later would be designated
the U-2. It was top secret, and as such needed a top secret facility
for flight test.

[...]

During this time the land was part of the Nellis Range. No special
security was in place, other than that of the Nellis Range and the
close proximity to exploding atomic devices. There was an area of
restricted airspace over the Nevada Test Site and it included a 5 by
9 miles area over Groom Lake.

That changed in 1958 when an area 6 by 10 miles in size was withdrawn
from public use and reserved for the use of the Atomic Energy
Commission. In keeping with its pattern of numbering the areas of the
Nevada Test Site, the area was called, 'Area 51'".

Dave's informative 'Area 51' web site can be found at -

http://pw2.netcom.com/~bethland/area51.html


The truth is out there, but so are boundless make-believe stories,
some of them absolute whoppers.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


On the subject of Groom Lake and A-12s, a five star recommendation for
Tom Mahood's 'Some Final Thoughts, Musings and Ruminations' on his
experiences as one of the base's foremost researchers -

http://www.serve.com/mahood/finis.htm

Also defining detective work at its finest, is Tom's gripping story
of the quest for a legendary crash site, although not of the alien
spacecraft variety. 'The Hunt for 928', a chronicle of Tom's search
for the final resting place of an A-12, is at -

http://www.serve.com/mahood/a-12/


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


The Japanese 'Fu-Go', or 'fugo' balloons carried incendiary devices
and it's estimated that over 9000 were launched against the US between
November 1944 and May 1945.

To prevent the Japanese gauging how successful the launches were, the
offensive was kept secret from the American public.

Professor Jack Sidener from the Chinese University in Hong Kong,
recently wrote to tell me:

"Came across your note re Fu-Go balloons on the web, and can add some
info. My dad was civil defense chief in the town of Rio Vista, about
40 miles inland from San Francisco. He's gone now, but a few years ago
he recollected that in the month of July (1944?45?) there was an
average of 9 fires per day around Rio Vista, which means 270
incendiary bombs dropped in one month. We used to watch them from Main
Street, little white dots overhead, sometimes a couple of airplanes
apparently snagging them in nets and hauling them out to sea. My dad
and the police said they were balloon spiders; one piece of a shot
balloon which dropped into the Sacramento River very visibly was said
to be a 'publicity stunt' - part of the amazingly successful
repression of the facts about their success".

If these statistics are relatively accurate, they appear to indicate a
substantially higher success rate than I've seen acknowledged.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


More historical insight on covert reconnaissance balloon operations
have been revealed in the UK.

Disclosures from the Public Record Office confirmed details of
'Project 119L', a secret US Air Force program using the Royal Naval
Air Station at Evanton, in the north of Scotland, to launch spy
balloons.

The 'Daily Telegraph' carried an article with accompanying photograph
and at the time of writing, this can still be seen on their web site
at -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=3D000116192758126&rtmo=3DVxFP51Zx&a
tmo=3D99999999&P4_FOLLOW_ON=3D/98/8/10/npro10.html&pg=3D/et/98/8/10/npro1
0.html

(This URL should be entered as a single line)


Co-incidentally, the article's author Ben Fenton, was one of the
journalists who expressed an interest in 'Rendlesham Unravelled' and
we had a lengthy conversation about those same defence implications
that Lord Hill-Norton was concerned with.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


'AOL' are the largest internet service providers with over 13 million
members.

Searching the members directory and using the enquiry 'RAF
Bentwaters', will provoke the warning, "You have asked to search for
word(s) that violate AOL's Terms of Service".

Puzzled by this reaction to an ostensibly straight-forward query, due
process of elimination showed 'Bentwaters' to be the offending word.

Further elimination of the possibilities proved that the objectionable
search item was the combination of the letters t..w..a..t.

AOL are aware of the eccentric predicament.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


Currently on-line and recommended paying a visit to:

'The Armchair Ufologist' -

http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/armchair/au3.html

Andy Roberts provides an irreverent and highly informative view of the
'UFO' scene in the UK.


'How to Prove You're an Alien' -

http://www.omnimag.com/archives/open_book/quest/index.html

Space writer Jim Oberg discusses the 'Quest for Evidence'


'Take the ET Challenge', at -

http://www.omnimag.com/open_book/et_test/index.html

"Let's face it --anyone can claim to be an alien.

But how can we put such claims to the test?"

In a follow-up article, Oberg suggests some telling questions.


The 'N-FILES'

http://www.ecn.co.uk/e_ed_ufo_NFileIndex.htm

The 'Eastern Counties Network' looks at some local legends, as also
featured in 'Fortean Times' magazine.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


Coming up in future....

Jenny Randles responds to 'Resolving Rendlesham...".

Socorro '64 - were the landed 'UFO' and 'entities' witnessed in this
'classic' sighting simply a hot-air balloon and its crew? In search
of the evidence.

Anomalous 'triangular aircraft' - exclusive interview.

'Crop circles' and their creators - "The Circlemakers: Art for Art's
Sake?"

Fighter aircraft were scrambled as unidentified objects appeared over
UK airspace and manoeuvred at "amazing" speed. The extraordinary
story, as told first-hand by an RAF radar operator.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


Quotable note:

"I need evidence or I believe in nothing. But somehow I still can't
stop dreaming".

Chris Packham.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/xcreatures/prog1.shtml



<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


(c) James Easton
September 1998






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 13

                          BWW Media Alert 19980913

From: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 12:51:31 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:07:39 -0400
Subject: BWW Media Alert 19980913

Bufo Calvin
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA  94596
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Website: <A HREF<A HREFALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to=
 reproduce or redistribute this
edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made
to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with
strangers before you e-mail them something.  If you forward this, please=
 make
sure it is clear that you are forwarding it).


September 13, 1998

I've been out of town for a couple of days, so this is a bit later in the=
 week
than usual.  The big news this week in Weird TV is the KGB UFO special=
 tonight
on TNT.  Several prominent ufologists contributed, and it's going to be=
 talked
about within "the community".  The first showing is opposite the Emmys, I
believe, but it will be repeated.  This might skip some of the opening=
 pages,
but try: http://tnt.turner.com/kgb/frame_index.html
for more information.

Speaking of the Emmys and tv, its worth a quick note on the new season.  The
comparative lack of new paranormal series is noticable.  Yes, MYSTERIES,=
 MAGIC
& MIRACLES is supposed to be debuting in syndication this week (a deal
bolstered, no doubt, by the fact that it is hosted by original John Steed,
Patrick MacNee: at least we have something to be thankful about with the new
AVENGERS film ;) ).  However, this is a show that ran on the SCI-FI channel
for some time: I'm not sure it is even new episodes.  Roswell does sneak=
 into
the season, but only as a plot device in UPN's SEVEN DAYS (it is allegedly=
 the
source of time travel technology used by the main character.  I have written
in the past exploring the TTH ((time travel hypothesis)) and how it could
relate to Roswell.  I doubt that's the way they are going, though). =
 Although
not reported in TV GUIDE's FALL PREVIEW issue (at least that I've noticed
yet), NBC is allegedly working on a special based on Whitley Strieber's
CONFIRMATION.  Not much, though, compared to a couple of years ago...

LECTURES:

Good opportunity to hear internationally recognized ghostbuster and
parapsychologist, Loyd Auerbach, coming up this week.  I can send you more
information, if you'd like.  Here is part of his release:

When:  Tuesday, September 15th at 7:30  (actual lecture starts around
7:45 or so) until 9:30 PM

Who for:  The California Society for Psychical Study (CSPS)

Where:  Fireplace Room at St. John's Prebyterian Center, 2727 College
Avenue, Berkeley, CA  (corner of College and Garber, 3 blocks north of
Ashby=85=85Parking available under the building and on the street)

How much:  $5 for most; $2 for students and senior citizens; free for
CSPS members

The topic:  GHOST STORIES

TELEVISION

BBC ONE
Wednesday, September 16, 7:00 PM (local time, I assume): THE X-CREATURES:
SHOOTING THE BIGFOOT

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL
Sunday, September 13, 1:00 PM, ARTHUR C CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE POWERS:
FAIRIES, PHANTOMS, AND FANTASTIC PHOTOGRAPHS (includes the Cottingley Fairy
photographs, the basis for the recent movie)
Sunday, September 13, 1:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS WORLD: GIANTS=
 OF
EASTER ISLAND
Sunday, September 13, 2:00 ANIMAL X (may include "psychic powers" of=
 animals,
but tough to tell if it really qualifies this week)
Sunnday, September 13, 2:30 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: LAKE MONSTER ("Champ" of
Lake Champlain)
Sunday, September 13, 5:00 PM, UFOS: DOWN TO EARTH: UNCOVERING THE EVIDENCE=

Thursday, September 17, 9:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: CHINESE WILDMAN
Friday, September 17, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: CHINESE WILDMAN
Next Sunday, September 20, 1:00 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE
POWERS: GHOSTS, APPARITIONS, AND HAUNTED HOUSES
Next Sunday, September 20, 1:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE:
MYSTERIOUS INDIA
Next Sunday, September 20, 2:30 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: CHINESE WILDMAN
Next Sunday, September 20, 7:00 PM, UFOS: DOWN TO EARTH: REASON TO BELIEVE
Next Sunday, September 20, 9:00 PM, OZ ENCOUNTERS: UFOS IN AUSTRALIA (this
sounds interesting...been some good work done there).
Next Monday, September 21, 1:00 AM, OZ ENCOUNTERS: UFOS IN AUSTRALIA
Next Thursday, September, 24, 9:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GIANT SNAKE (I
believe you can hear an archive of a radio show I did on this subject with
Jeff Rense at http://www.sightings.com)
Next Friday, September 25, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GIANT SNAKE

THE SCI-FI CHANNEL
Sun, September 13 7:00 PM SIGHTINGSM EPISODE #5069
Sun, September 13 11:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #5069
Mon, September 14 9:00 AM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #5070
Mon, September 14 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #103
Mon, September 14 8:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #103
Tue, September 15 9:00 AM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #3001
Wed, September 16 9:00 AM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #3002
Wed, September 16 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #104
Wed, September 16 8:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #104
Thu, September 17 9:00 AM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #3003
Fri, September 18 9:00 AM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #3004
Fri, September 18 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #105
Fri, September 18 8:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #105
Sun, September 20 7:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #3005
Sun, September 20 11:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #3005

TNT
Sunday, September 13, 8:00 PM, THE SECRET KGB UFO FILES.  This is the event=
 of
the week.
Sunday, September 13, 9:30 PM, THE SECRET KGB UFO FILES.
Sunday, September 13, 11:00 PM, THE UFO COVER-UP: LIVE FROM AREA 51.  I
haven't confirmed this, but I assume this is a repeat.  Hosted by Larry=
 King.
Monday, September 14, 1:00 AM, OVERLORDS OF THE UFO (tacky documentary from
the era of tacky documentaries: 1974.  However, there is something=
 interesting
material in it)
Monday September 14, 3:00 AM, UFO (one of the earliest documentaries from
1956: has a pretty good rep)
Wednesday, September 16, 11:00 PM, THE SECRET KGB UFO FILES.

___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =EErything____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly
redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by
e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com.  You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to
Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if
there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is=
 Tuesday, the week before.
_____________________________

**OPUS is the Organization for Paranormal Understanding and Support. I am an
Executive Boardmember, and Director of the OPUS Educational Institute. OPUS
encourages its officers and Network Associates to express their own=
 opinions:
however, it is important to note that I do not speak for OPUS in this piece
or others presented under my own name.  For more information on OPUS, see=
 its website at http://members.aol.com/josephxx3






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 13

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 98 15:10:33 PDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:12:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 23:15:19 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 98 10:01:00 PDT


>A number of official documents relevant to Roswell _have_ been
>issued, as you well know.

I guess I don't know this, Dennis, well or otherwise. I've seen
documents that you anti-Roswell advocates want us to believe are
relevant, because they serve your particular interpretation.
They do not, however, refer directly to the still-unexplained
and -unidentified object or objects that came down in New Mexico
in early July 1947. Until such real documents emerge, it is
unlikely that we will ever know with certainty what happened.
We'll just go to our rewards after having waged endless wars of
reconstruction.

>>>>It may as well note here the curious silence on the part of the
>>>>anti-Roswell crowd concerning Roswell adjutant Patrick
>>>>Saunders's statement, made to many friends and family members in
>>>>writing before his death, that Randle and Schmitt's account of
>>>>what happened is essentially correct.. I guess you guys are just
>>>>waiting to find your voice, and I have no doubt that soon you'll
>>>>be telling us he's just another of the liars whose good name --
>>>>like that of Jesse Marcel, Sr. -- awaits the inevitable
>>>>trashing. Speaking personally, though, I'd be more inclined to
>>>>take his word on it than yours, Martin Cannon's, or my own.

>>>Was it Saunders, literally on his death bed, who signed off on
>>>Randle/Schmitt's "UFO Crash at Roswell" as a true account? Odd,
>>>but then didn't Randle make numerous corrections to that book
>>>vis a vis Ragsdale, Dennis and others? So which account was
>>>Saunders confirming -- the one written before his death or the
>>>one written afterwards? Did he mean to affirm Ragsdale and
>>>Dennis? After all, both versions can't be right.

>>What Saunders meant, of course, is that Randle and Schmitt got
>>it essentially right: that a UFO and bodies were recovered in
>>July 1947 in New Mexico. The presence of hoaxers here and there
>>among Roswell claimants does not invalidate the testimony of
>>honest informants, any more than the liars among UFO witnesses
>>generally disproves the existence of UFOs. Of course, by your
>>reasoning, if some scientist were to express the view that UFOs
>>represent ET visitation, you would accuse him of endorsing
>>Adamski and Meier, by this logic.

>How do you know what Saunders meant? The man was literally on
>his death bed. Ted Holden, also on his death bed, supposedly
>confirmed bodies at another site. How do you know who is a
>hoaxer and who is an honest informant? But since you do, maybe
>you'd care to tell us which category Frank Kaufmann's
>fantabulous tales fall into? Hoaxer or honest informant?

Why are you talking about Frank Kaufmann? Are you trying to
change the subject?

Why would Saunders know whether Glenn Dennis or James Ragsdale
was telling the truth? He never claimed to have interacted with
them and probably had never heard of them till he read the
Randle/Schmitt books. Because of his position as adjutant at the
Roswell base, he did -- if we are to take his word for it in
testimony to family and friends -- know that an extraordinary
craft and bodies were recovered and concealed. He need not have
known any of the civilian witnesses who asserted (falsely or
truly) that they witnessed crash/retrieval-related activity.

>Who knows, Jerry, but you? I have no doubt but what Glenn Dennis
>was there, too. Ditto Kaufmann. But being there doesn't
>necessarily mean your account is coherent or accurate.

Of course, in your judgment apparently, that applies only to
persons whose memories are of the crash/retrieval of an ET
spacecraft. If they're "remembering" something that can be used
to support what the AF and you want to believe, then their
memories are entirely reliable.


>Go back and see what an Internet thread is all about, Jerry.
>After all, you once lectured someone else about the nature of
>same. I trust you will agree that the nature of the world is
>such that one can't be everywhere, all the time, responding to
>every issue in sight. Were I the Air Force apologist that you
>seem to think I am, I would have found time in my schedule to
>positively review both AF Roswell reports in the MUFON Journal
>or some other available venue, but you'll note that I didn't. By
>your same line of reasoning, _somewhere_ we should be able to
>find some of your writings or Internet postings that speak
>favorably of the Air Force.

Dennis, come on, come on. You went out of your way to excuse the
AF's applying a dumb explanation, based on testimony that
virtually everybody else agrees is bogus, to the bodies part of
the story. Yes, one can't be everywhere, but I think you'd have
to agree you've never been anywhere close to criticizing the AF
on this one. Only the pro-Roswell people get the savaging. One
standard for your allies, another for your adversaries. So what
else is new?

At least honest Roswell advocates (most prominently Kevin
Randle) have not hesitated to call people hoaxers when good
evidence pointed to that conclusion. It would be wonderful if
anti- Roswell types began to look more skeptically at the
testimony of their favorite informants -- Sheridan Cavitt, for
example; see Bruce Maccabee's telling recent post on that
curious individual.

>you would have apparently overlooked my other post, which said
>that now ain't then. I don't think, in this litigous age, that
>the AF would go out of its way to call Roswell witnesses liars,
>thereby inviting a slander suit. If you do, so be it.

What evidence do you have that the AF was afraid of being sued?
(Wouldn't it be more logical, in any case, for the AF -- if it
had that concern -- not to have mentioned Anderson's and
Dennis's testimony at all?) Since no evidence of a fear of legal
retribution exists, a far more likely explanation for the AF's
behavior is that it was conducting itself, as it habitually does
when it comes to UFO matters, with cynicism and opportunism. The
only difference I can see now is that today some ufologists
actually defend AF misconduct. Ah, where are Keyhoe and NICAP
when we really need them again?

I'd be interested, by the way, in the name of a single UFO
witness who sued the AF after it called him or her a hoaxer. If
there is such a case, I'd love to hear about it. (This is not a
rhetorical question, incidentally.) None comes to mind, and I
do know something about the AF's long, sorry history, from the
summer of 1947 (flying discs) to the summer of 1997 (flying
dummies), of its interaction with the
phenomenon and those who have experienced it.


>Which
>just shows to go you that you know more than I do, after all.

Ah, at last -- the truth acknowledged. (That's a joke, son.)


>And I assume that includes the
>possibility that the lying bastards (Army Air Force then) didn't
>recover any alien bodies at Roswell? And maybe, just maybe,
>didn't threaten to kill any civilians in the process. But you
>would have to be a real AF apologist to believe that.

You said it, not I.

A final word:

I have followed the Roswell debate with varying degrees of

attention and interest over the years. I am keenly aware of
what sort of evidence would be required to prove the
extraordinary claim that the U.S. Air Force (or any other
military or official body) recovered the remains of a vehicle
from another planet and dead occupants. The evidence we have
seen to date gets not remotely close to proving that. It does,
however, open up some intriguing questions, not all of which
have been answered. A great deal of effort, it seems to me, is
being made, inside and outside ufology (see, for example, Greg
Long's P-1947 posting today), to pretend that the issue has been
settled, when of course it hasn't.

We need to be modest here. Something happened in July 1947. It
was covered up (as even the AF now admits), and no civilian
investigator or journalist got to look into it until three
decades later, by which time the full truth may simply have not
been recoverable. And we are now two decades beyond that and,
moreover, into the media circus that Roswell has become, when
all sorts of people have financial incentives to lie.

Maybe we have gone as far as we can go. Maybe it's time to admit
that we don't know the answers. Maybe it is time to acknowledge
that ALL proposed solutions have problems. Maybe, as we nurture
the hope that something will erupt from somewhere to shed light
on the darkness surrounding these long-ago events, it's time to
go on to other matters.

Cheers,

Jerry Clark








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 13

                  Area 51, Little A'Le'Inn & Glenn Campbel

From: Gerry Lovell <ed@farshore.force9.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 13:05:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:58:03 -0400
Subject: Area 51, Little A'Le'Inn & Glenn Campbel


Source: The Salt Lake Tribune
Date: Sept 13 1998
Header: The People Next Door: Area 51 lures Internet junkies, UFO
searchers
Byline: Dan Nailen

NEVADA STATE HIGHWAY 375 -- On the map, Warm Springs is a dot
signifying a town, a hope for gasoline in the middle of Nevada's
high, south-central desert.

In reality, Warm Springs is a burned-out bar/motel in the middle
of nowhere, 115 miles across utter desolation from the last gas
station, in Ely, and hopefully the next one, 98 miles down the
road in Rachel.

Rachel is the unofficial gateway to a very unofficial place,
popularly known as Area 51, although it has many other monikers:
Dreamland, Groom Lake and Paradise Ranch among them. Area 51 is
-- while completely classified and for years repeatedly denied
-- the U.S. government's secret aircraft testing area. It is
also, some say, sight of all manner of UFOs, unexplained
phenomena and walking, talking aliens.

The road southeast from Warm Springs to Rachel, and continuing
to Ash Springs, was officially dubbed "The Extraterrestrial
Highway" in 1995 by Nevada Gov. Bob Miller. The 100-mile stretch
of two-lane runs where the Mojave and Great Basin deserts meet.
Plant life is limited to sagebrush and the occasional Joshua
Tree, and wildlife to jackrabbits, lizards and coyotes.
Residents along the road number in the dozens, not hundreds,
most of them gathered in Rachel at the highway's midpoint.

Driving the E.T. Highway at night is both a blessing and a
curse. The entire length is part of an open-range grazing
system, and a crash-inducing herd of dark brown cattle can
materialize in the road at any second, "stealth cattle" as some
locals call them. But the sky is amazing, stars blanketing the
view from the sun roof to the horizon. They blaze even with a
full moon's shine to contend with, the total effect creating so
much light that headlights are a legality, not a necessity.

Rachel appears suddenly, a white florescent sign featuring a
classic oval-eyed, green alien and the message "Earthlings
Welcome." The sign beckons drivers to the Little A'Le'Inn, a
bar/cafe/motel and a controversial epicenter of Area 51
enthusiasts.

The "Inn," as some In The Know call it, is a typical small-town
diner as far as the cuisine goes, but serves up burgers and
beers with an intergalactic, and profitable, spin. The walls are
covered with all things alien -- posters, drawings, photographs,
news articles. In the corner between the bar and the kitchen is
the gift shop, which has grown steadily the past few years in
both selection and shear volume. It includes a book rack,
featuring the latest in conspiracy theories, militia ravings and
a few guidebooks to Area 51's perimeter.

For only $43.15 in the gift shop, you can buy two Area 51 beer
holders, two refrigerator magnets, a t-shirt, three coffee mugs,
four bumper stickers and a copy of the restaurant's first menu
featuring the "Alien Burger."

Unfortunately, the grill is closed, and the establishment only
has about 20 minutes on the clock. Jean Tholt is wiping down the
bar, covered in anti-Clinton bumper stickers and alien-themed
knick knacks. She's been working at the Inn for three weeks,
after being a regular customer on her visits to Rachel. Today
has been the most hectic in her brief employment.

"It's been pretty busy today," Tholt says, looking drained. "I
don't know what's going on outside."

That question, of course, is essentially the reason the Little
A'Le'Inn and Rachel, Nevada, exist in 1998.

Before the end of the first dollar Budweiser, Joe Travis walks
in and sits at the next stool, cracking the first of three
Milwaukee's Bests he'll polish off in quick succession. Travis
is the generally amiable, gray-bearded owner of the Little
A'Le'Inn, a Detroit transplant and Kentucky native who bought
the place 10 years ago with his wife, Pat. They met after Joe
moved to Las Vegas 17 years ago.

He's somewhat evasive when asked if he believes there are UFOs
in the skies around Rachel and Area 51, but Pat is, for
practical and media purposes, a true believer. In a "Weekly
World News" story , she described her contact with an alien
named Archibald in and around Rachel. Joe is positive, though,
that the Little A'Le'Inn is a good investment, and business has
certainly increased as UFO culture experiences a resurgence in
the 1990s, expanding into American popular culture through
blockbuster movies -- "Men in Black," "Independence Day" -- and
TV shows like "The X-Files" and "Sightings."

The Travises meet the media more and more often the past few
years. Larry King and Montel Williams hosted shows in Rachel,
and the Discovery Channel drops by now and again. Hollywood came
calling for the joint "Independence Day"/Extraterrestrial
Highway ribbon-cutting. Van Halen signed the guest book,
stopping by during a cross-country tour.

"It's like we were brought to this place to do a job," Joe says,
his cosmic statements a little out-of-place, spoken as he chain
smokes. "Something brought me and my wife together in Las Vegas,
and then here. Fate or destiny. I don't think it was just
chance."

Rachel was already becoming an unusual meeting ground of those
visiting Area 51 to look for UFOs, and those visiting Area 51 to
see the latest in U.S. military technology--be it yesterday's
U-2, SR-71 or Stealth spy planes, or tomorrow's
still-classified, officially unseen projects. Rachel is a
melting pot of Internet junkies, conspiracy theorists,
anti-government militia types, scientists, entrepreneurs and
military watchdogs. Since the highway naming, and the ensuing
three years of media coverage, there are more casual tourists
hanging around, more media crews and more profiteering
newcomers. Not to mention, more bogus explanations and
conspiracies.

All the activity swirls around a 60-square-mile block of
off-limits government land tucked within the boundaries of the
Nellis Bombing and Gunnery Range and the Nevada Test Site, both
sites of well-documented military plane, bomb and weapons
testing. Russians photographed the base bordering dry Groom
Lake, the pictures a result of the post-Cold War opening of
American airspace to Russian satellite technology. "Dreamland"
is the label used by pilots and military air traffic controllers
for the airspace above Area 51, a no-fly zone for everyone but
the servicemen, officers, defense contractors and bureaucrats
not officially working at the base that doesn't officially
exist.

The Area 51 Research Center consists essentially of a
souvenir-selling, satellite-linked, yellow trailer in Rachel and
www.ufomind.com, the world's largest clearinghouse of Area 51
information on the Internet. The gift shop is maintained by a
Rachel local, but the creator, brains, and self-described
"webmester" is Glenn Campbell, who now lives in Las Vegas after
a brief, tumultuous residence in Rachel.

Campbell, known by some In The Know as "PsychoSpy" or "PsiSpy,"
dropped his computer programming career in Boston to pursue The
Truth about Area 51, and his web site gets 600,000 hits a day
from people with similar interests.

"I was interested in the UFO stories, and this was the place
where they were supposed to appear on demand," Campbell said,
adding he was ultimately disappointed. "The majority of what
people see are flares."

Still, the Area 51 perimeters controlled with authorized deadly
force, according to the widely spaced signs, and the omnipresent
"Cammo dudes" are a reality, as are the budget strains on
Lincoln County law enforcement, often called in by the feds to
deal with wandering tourists. Both the Cammo Dudes and Sheriff's
Department know Campbell by sight, and on a first-name basis,
although he says he hasn't been in the area for four months. In
the past, Campbell led tours to the perimeters of the base,
published the first "Area 51 Viewer's Guide" and fought to keep
the government from classifying a hillside and prime
base-watching spot he termed "Freedom Ridge." He ultimately lost
that battle, but gained a lot of publicity from the fight.

Another battle that probably helped precipitate Campbell's move
to Las Vegas more than a year ago was a clash with Joe Travis.
When Campbell first moved from Boston, he set up shop in a room
rented from Travis, and helped the Little A'Le'Inn enter the
tourist trade when he designed a patch to sell in the cafe. A
business disagreement apparently led to a late-night
confrontation, resulting in Campbell moving into the
$215-a-month trailer on the other end of the 100-person town and
establishing the research center.

The Travis's Little A'Le'Inn and Campbell's Area 51 Research
Center, while prominent in UFO folklore, are but two cogs in the
huge hype machine surrounding the base.

Phil Patton, author and New York Times columnist, grew up on
U.S. Air Force Strategic Air Command bases during the Cold War
arms race, always obsessed with the incredible and ever-changing
planes filling the skies around him.

He first visited Freedom Ridge with Campbell in October 1993,
hoping perhaps for a glimpse of a new test plane, and interested
in the characters and stories of the extraterrestrial hunters
congregated in Rachel, a group he termed the Interceptors. In
his recently published book, "Dreamland: Travels Inside the
Secret World of Roswell and Area 51," Patton details his
research into both the military research at Area 51, and the
Interceptors in the New Mexico and Nevada deserts.

Roswell, N.M. is the July 7, 1947, locale of a supposed U.S. Air
Force capture of an alien aircraft, aliens included. The Air
Force even issued a press release the next day stating: "The
many rumors regarding the flying disc became a reality yesterday
when the intelligence office of the 509th Bomb Group of the
Eighth Air Force, Roswell Army Air Field, was fortunate enough
to gain possession of a disc through the cooperation of one of
the local ranchers and the sheriff's office of Chaves County."

Within a day the Air Force had disavowed the press release,
stating the recovered craft was actually a weather balloon, an
explanation officially reiterated in 1997 when the incident's
50th anniversary brought renewed interest, an upturn in Roswell
tourism and a celebration concert over the July 4th weekend. But
various "eyewitness accounts" of the crash and three alleged
dead alien bodies -- accompanied by Roswell mortician Glen
Dennis's claims that Roswell airfield ordered three child-size
coffins around the same time -- were the seeds for 51 years of
UFO research and government conspiracy theories surrounding
American contact with alien beings.

The 'Roswell Incident' came shortly on the heels of Boise pilot
Kenneth Arnold's June 24, 1947, sighting of nine bright
unidentified objects flying among Washington's Cascade
Mountains. He estimated the craft he saw were traveling at
speeds better than 1,600 mph, and said their motion "resembled
saucers that had been skipped over water" -- introducing the
term "flying saucers" to America.

Patton believes the growth of UFO mania in the United States is
inextricably linked to the Cold War. The renewed interest in the
1990s, Patton said, can be seen as the result of Americans
looking to the heavens for a threat now that the Evil Empire of
the eastern bloc has fragmented.

UFO searchers look to Area 51 for answers, Patton said, while
military watchdogs try to sneak a peek at the latest spy
technology, the classified projects that will be used to protect
the country in the post-Cold War "New World Order."

That once-innocuous phrase, used by President George Bush to
define a world minus one long-time superpower in the former
Soviet Union, is now, of course, a catch-all militia and
conspiracy-theorist phrase to describe the United Nations'
attempts to rule the world with one government. Area 51 is just
another example for the militia-types to point to and accuse the
U.S. government of a hand in the U.N.'s plans, Patton said.

"It's become a symbol of government secrecy and conspiracy,"
Patton said. "What they (conspiracy theorists) don't think about
is, large organizations are usually too bumbling to plot out a
large conspiracy."

Patton details in his book the history of U.S. military "black
budgets," secret and enormous appropriations for things like CIA
operations, spying technology and weapons research. The name
derives from sections of Congressional budget bills where the
secret budget items would be listed, only to be blacked over
with marker. Congressmen usually vote on black budgets without
knowing what the hidden numbers are.

The projects are monitored by certain members of the Pentagon,
the CIA and the defense industry. And by people like Steve
Douglass, who spends his own time and money using scanners to
monitor air traffic and radio transmissions around military
testing sites throughout the West. Douglass also dissects black
budgets, fitting rumored test crafts into holes in the federal
budget to determine which crafts may be reality, and which
merely rumor.

Black budget projects are most likely the explanation behind
most UFO sightings near Rachel and Area 51. Glenn Campbell of
the Area 51 Research Center left Rachel for good about a year
ago, getting married and setting up shop in Las Vegas. He says
he was both disappointed in Rachel's lack of aerodynamic
fireworks, and the influx of tourists, profiteers and charlatans
after the hype of the Extraterrestrial Highway.

"There's a whole subculture of people who believe they are
aliens, Campbell said, who claims that he researches UFOs as a
gauge of society, not of alien life forms.

Campbell largely blames himself for the creation of all the
Rachel hoopla, acknowledging that he was one of the first
media-savvy researchers to publicize Rachel and Area 51.

"Before, people who came here had to do a little research,"
Campbell bemoaned, adding ruefully, "I created the (Rachel)
phenomena."

The former computer programmer also says the Internet played a
major role in expanding the myths and legends surrounding Rachel
and Area 51. Campbell moved to Rachel and began researching Area
51 about one year before the Internet "took off," he said.

"The Internet is what changed everything," Campbell said.
"Really the paranormal and the Internet are made for each
other."

People continue to gather at "The Black Mailbox," as those In
The Know call it, located about 25 feet off the Extraterrestrial
Highway. It is the starting point of hikes to the Area 51
perimeter along the Belted Range mountains of the high Nevada
desert. The UFO watchers and military buffs meet there to begin
their respective runs at the secrecy of Dreamland. Off to deal
with the Cammo dudes again.

Like most things associated with Area 51, the Black Mailbox is
not what it appears.

It is painted white.

=A0=A0=A0-- end --

***************** via *****************
   Gerry @ Far Shores Website
 http://www.farshore.force9.co.uk
***************************************







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 13

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 18:11:41 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:36:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:06:51 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


David,

A brief addendum to my earlier post, the part about security
procedures, to which, along with the rest of the post, you
objected so strenuously:

In rereading Bob Pratt's December 8, 1979, interview with Marcel
I came across the following. Marcel says, "The biggest mistake I
ever made -- of course I couldn't -- was not to keep a piece of
it. But in all fairness to my work and the service I couldn't."

As with almost all Roswell minutiae, this one can be interpreted
in various ways. But it seems to suggest that Marcel was at
least minimally aware of what might be referred to as security
procedures, ie, things one is supposed to do or not do in
certain -- or even extenuating -- circumstances.

Immediately after that, Pratt asks, "You had three thousand
hours as a pilot?" and Marcel responds, "Right, [and] eight
thousand hours [total] flying time."

Another interesting passage in the interview (the whole of which
is interesting before I'm accused of selectivity) comes when
Marcel is describing what Ramey said to him in his office: "'You
go back to Roswell. You're need[ed] more there.' He said,
'You've got a big job there, what you're doing is more
important. This, there'll be nothing --'"

Unfortunately, in one of those moments all us journalists are no
doubt guilty of and later lament, Pratt interrupts to ask: "What
was the rancher's name?" and Marcel's train of thought is broken
and forgotten.

Marcel also makes this curious statement elsewhere in the
interview:

"In the meantime, we had an eager-beaver public relations
officer -- he found out about it -- he calls AP about it. Then
that's when it really hit the fan -- I don't mind using that
expression. I probably got telephone calls from everywhere. News
reporters were trying to come in to talk to me, but I had
nothing for them. I couldn't tell them anything. I didn't have
anything to talk about. They wanted to see the stuff, which I
couldn't show them."

Marcel said the next day he flew to Ft. Worth, that General
Ramey wasn't there when he first arrived, "but they had a lot of
news reporters and a slew of microphones that wanted to talk to
me...but I couldn't say anything until I talked to the
general..."

Obviously, this implies that there was more than one reporter in
Ramey's office at some point. It also implies that Marcel
fielded numerous phone calls the day before the press
conference. If so, he should have been quoted by some source, if
only to the effect that "Major Marcel said he couldn't presently
say anything."

You've read all the press releases, apparently. Is Marcel quoted
in any of them? And that's merely a simple question, not a Stacy
Patented Irrational Tangent, or SPIT. Or double-standard
debunker speak. Whatever.

Dennis







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   Sep > Sep 13

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:31:52 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:35:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:06:51 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

David,

You either have an inordinate amount of free time on your hands,
or are in the middle of writing a book about Roswell -- not that
there's anything wrong with either of those, of course. Hell,
I'm paid fulltime by the CIA to debunk UFO reports, and I don't
have that kind of time on my hands.

That said, the depth and extent of your research into Roswell is
truly impressive, and I mean that in all sincerity. A quick
response, then, to some of your points, and more later -- after
I go back and read every word ever written about the case, which
I'll apparently have to do.


>>And if the FBI telegram is so
>>theoretically important, why would Ramey have had it in his hand
>>during the picture session, when a reporter might have asked
>>what it said?

>Yet another patented Stacy irrational tangent, plus even more
>evidence that Stacy is grossly ignorant about the details of the
>case yet feels free to run off at the mouth about it. Who ever
>said Ramey was holding the FBI telegram? Please, a name Dennis.
>Or how about EVIDENCE other than Stacy assertions that this had
>anything to do with the FBI?  And is Ramey now running the FBI
>as well? Didn't the FBI send its own telegrams?
>

Yes, the FBI sent their own telegrams. Who suggested that Ramey
was running them? BTW, my irrational tangents are NOT patented
-- anyone is free to use them.

>It was suggested in "The Roswell Incident" that Ramey was
>holding a press release in his hand, not the FBI telegram for
>crying out loud! (Does Stacy ever check out anything before
>shooting wildly from the hip?)  But in reality, nobody actually
>knows what was on the piece of paper. This was also the photo
>shoot session with J. B. Johnson, and according to Johnson no
>other reporters were there at the time. Nobody was going to be
>firing hard questions at the general.

I was responding to the following paragraph from your post of
8-18:

>* The remains of a radar target in the photos that don't even
>add up to the remains of a single radar target, much less three
>Mogul radar targets (see same photo analysis in A.F. Report --
>there are only16 feet total of sticks vs. 48 feet for a full
>ML-307 skeleton). A small pile of balloon debris that would
>represent only a tiny fraction of the two dozen neoprene
>balloons making up the alleged crashed Mogul. An FBI telegram
>and statements from Ramey and Irving Newton that this was the
>remains of a SINGULAR weather balloon and a SINGULAR radar
>target, not a multi-balloon, multi-radar target Mogul.

In my haste to shoot from the hip, I completely misread this.
The first two sentences referenced things pictured in the room,
and I started the third sentence that way as well, clearly an
error on my part, for which you have my apologies. We don't know
what Ramey was holding in his hand.

>>>* No mention of any odor to any of the debris by any witness who
>>>may have come in close contact with it BEFORE Fort Worth. In
>>>particular, nobody mentioned anything about the acrid smell of
>>>old neoprene rubber weather balloons left in the sun to rot. The
>>>very first mention that there was such an odor was by Johnson,
>>>who noticed it when he came into Ramey's office. This was AFTER
>>>both Marcel and Dubose claimed that Ramey swapped in a
>>>substitute balloon for the real debris.

Having just posted another lengthy response, in which you set
Bond Johnson straight about a few things, I'm surprised you
still accept his story of a smell. But the short answer to your
question is I don't know why he reported it and others didn't,
if it was indeed the same material. You could be right, Johnson
could be wrong, I don't know. In either event, though, I'm sure
the Army AF kept a supply of aged weather balloons on hand for
just such occasions. Another patented irrational tangent, or
PIT.

>Unpleasant odors form very vivid memories. Eyewitnesses at
>airplane crash sites or similar situations where there are very
>unpleasant, acrid smells of burned material, rotting bodies,
>etc., generally volunteer this memory of unpleasant or noxious
>smell without being asked, just like photographer Johnson did.
>It's the thing that usually sticks out most in their memory.
>Yet, nobody but nobody who was in contact with the debris before
>Fort Worth has ever mentioned anything about an odor. And in Dr.
>Marcel's case, I specifically asked him in case it slipped his
>mind to mention it despite being interviewed a thousand times in
>the last 20 years. He has no memory of any odor.
>

I'm surprised Johnson was able to remain in the room long enough
to take his pictures, given the stench. Odd that none of the
press reports mentioned this, isn't it? It's just the sort of
observation -- "the debris between reporters and Gen. Ramey gave
off an unpleasant odor" -- that would have lent their reports
what journalists refer to as "color." But you've read all the
press releases -- do any of them mention it? Please color your
response with numerous paragraphs describing my mental state and
motives.

>>No note in Marcel's record, either, that he obviously violated
>>existing security procedures by stopping by his home with the
>>debris before reporting to his commanding officer.

>Yet another Stacy tangent, since he doesn't want to address the
>central point. What existing security procedures were those if
>flying saucers didn't exist then or now? Could you show us a
>copy of these alleged official security procedures? And even if
>Marcel did violate some existing security procedure, could you
>please provide us with some sort of EVIDENCE that some superior
>officer like Col. Blanchard or Gen. Ramey knew about it, and
>therefore there would be an actual reason for this to be noted
>somewhere in his record.
>

I'm afraid this is a Rudiak PIT. An intelligence officer would
be aware of reams of security procedures -- that was his job. Of
course none of them would refer to flying saucers specifically
-- but highly unusual debris of the sort he described would
surely fall into some procedural category, as would the orders
he received from Blanchard before leaving for the Brazel ranch.
Don't ask me for a copy of the orders, I don't have one -- and
neither do you.

The issue simply points to Marcel's character, in terms of what
kind of individual he was. Let me hasten to add, before another
barrage falls on my head, that I'm using character here in a
benign, descriptive sense of an individual's total, collective
behavior. Knowing that he whittled would also be an indication
of character.

There is a lot that we don't know about Roswell. Or maybe I
should say that there are a lot of us that don't know everything
about Roswell, unlike you. I'm so confused by the existing
accounts that I'm not even sure when Marcel actually showed
Blanchard the stuff. In any event, we don't know whether
Blanchard asked him if he showed it to anyone else or not.

>>Wouldn't you consider that a breach of conduct on the part of
>>an intelligence officer?

>What difference would it make? Did his family blab to the press
>about it at the time? Did Col. Blanchard or Gen. Ramey or anyone
>else know about it?

See above.

>>No indication, either, that Marcel and Cavitt thought
>>that what they had retrieved from the Foster ranch warranted
>>waking up Blanchard in the middle of the night.
>
>How does Dennis Stacy know this? Marcel never mentioned when he
>first spoke to Blanchard, but of course Dennis Stacy knows.

I didn't say I knew this. I said there was no indication. It's
simply an attempt to arrive at an overall perspective of what
Marcel was thinking at different times. Your attitude in your
post is that no one can question or raise issues with anything
that disagrees with your version of events, and that if they do
they are double-standard debunkers. There is much about Roswell
in particular, and UFOs in general, that can only be approached
by surmise and speculation.

>Cavitt claims to have washed his hands of the whole affair once
>he got back to base. But Cavitt's story was also blatantly a lie
>from beginning to end.

<snip>

If Cavitt's story was a lie from beginning to end, throw the bum
out of the court room. I don't care. I didn't quote his account,
I simply mentioned his name with Marcel's in passing. And then
you do what you accuse me of -- go off on a lengthy digression
about Cavitt's many lies. My only response is that you go back
and read the comments about Cavitt that Bruce Maccabee just
posted, without desccending to character assassination,
something you leap to when someone dares question Marcel's
memory or anything else about the man. Cavitt couldn't remember
several things, until his wife prompted him with answers. God
forbid those lapses of memory be evidence of anything other than
paid Air Force lies.

To be continued. The CIA doesn't pay me to work doubletime on
Sundays, the cheap bastards!

Dennis








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 13

                          Re: Brown Mountain Lights

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 20:53:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:47:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Brown Mountain Lights

>Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 04:46:43 -0400
>From: Doc Landry <landryp1@home.com>
>Organization: Forensic Pathology/Criminology
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: re- Brown Mountain Lights

>Hello everyone:

>I would like to thank everyone for their help with the Brown
>Mountain lights. I really like that song. I will let you know
>what I find as I hopefully will be heading down there in a few
>weeks. Again thanks all;-)

>Doc (Diane)

Hi Doc,

I don't know what you have received from the list, but you may
or may not be interested in knowing that I have within my video
archives a report on the 'Brown Mountain Lights'. If memory
serves me correctly, the report lasts about 20 - 30 minutes. If
you would be interested in this information, let me know.

REgards, Mike






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   Sep > Sep 13

                               KGB Files Show

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:05:35 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:48:58 -0400
Subject: KGB Files Show

Some initial thoughts on the KGB UFO files show:

With regard to the gun camera film showing a cigar shaped object
moving over the cloud deck near other fighters, I noticed that
the object seems to bounce up and down relative to the clouds
beneath it. this action appars timed with some of the vibration
naturally present in the footage from normal aircraft
vibrations. This suggests to me that the object was inserted
after the film was made, and wasn't done particularly well. One
doesn't even need frame by frame analysis to see it. It also
appears too well defined for the distance. I would expect more
smearing.

And about that thing leaning against the tree. Does it strike
anyone else as odd that they only posted guards on the side of
the object with the CAMERAS near it?  Which side of the object
was more likely to have undesirables sneaking up on it, the side
with the wide open field or the side with the forest? Also odd
that no one seemed at all interested in the other side of the
object. It reminded me of a sitcom wherein a group of people
huddle together all facing the camera while carrying on a
conversation (far closer than is typically comfortable), so that
they all will be in the frame.

Well, laziness prevails. More to come later, I'm sure.

Greg






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                Re: Vanderhoof, BC Circles Update - 09-11-98

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:16:14 PDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:50:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Vanderhoof, BC Circles Update - 09-11-98


>Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:04:20 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Vanderhoof, BC Circles Update - 09-11-98

>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:23:51 -0800
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
>Subject: CPR-Canada Update: Vanderhoof, BC Circles Update - September
11, 1998

>Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Update
>September 11, 1998
>
>VANDERHOOF, BC CIRCLES UPDATE
>
>Report from Chad Deetken (Pacific Research):
>
>
>Crop Formation At Vanderhoof, BC, Canada

>written by Chad Deetken, Sept. 8, 1998

<snip>

>Technical Data

>Crop - oats
>Date of formation - night of Aug 27/28
>Size of circles - in a cluster of 5, one was 51' diameter
>                  and clockwise
>one was 23'10" diameter and counterclockwise
>one was 50' 2" diameter and clockwise
>one was 41' 8" diameter and counterclockwise
>one was 46' 6" diameter and clockwise

>- in a cluster of 3, one was 19' 8" diameter
>  and counterclockwise
>one was 19' 6" diameter and clockwise
>one was 18' 6" diameter and counterclockwise

>- in a cluster of 3, one was 99' diameter and counterclockwise
>one was 21' 8" diameter and clockwise
>one was 22' and clockwise


Chad ( & List),

Your listing may indicate that the circles were formed
alternately clockwise then counter-clockwise. In other words is
a clockwise circle always next to a counter-clockwise circle. Is
this the case?

If it is then that may indicate something useful, e.g. a string
of 'energy vortices' (for want of a more correct description)
where one is spinning one way meshing efficiently next to
another spinning the opposite way, and so on. This would be
visualised as being like a drive train of gears.

Could there be any measurable indications that the smaller
circles were formed with a higher intensity than the larger ones
- perhaps a higher ratio of stalk damage for example? This may
indicate that the rate of spin of the smaller 'vortices' may be
applied at a ratio similar to that of a gear train.

Any thoughts?

Regards,
Leanne Martin
Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia








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                             UFO Video Technique

From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:51:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:57:23 -0400
Subject: UFO Video Technique


Hi all,

I returned back last night from Paris where I stayed for 4 days
and had a nice time, the weather was rainy and sometimes the sun
showed up during the warm days. I had an interview with  Mr.
Didier Galibert who is assistant of the "Visions du Future"
Monthly Magazine editor in Paris and I applied to be their
correspondent regarding the Mexico's UFO sightings and Pyramid's
Cosmic power related topics and investigation affairs. They
agree and my information will be published very soon.

UFO videotaping in your backyard?...

Long time ago I was member of 'in_search_of' list were I decided
to quit because I noted a tendency from the owner & Webmaster
Dan Woolman who most of the time tried to control and manipulate
the members opinion and participation specially the Roswell
Autopsy Film and Self Human Combustion phenomena topics.

At that time (1996) I met a friend named John Greenwald
(Greeney) a 15 (now 17) years old nice guy whose web site "The
Black Vault" has become one of the world's most interesting WEB
sites regarding the U.S.A. Government Secret Documents he has
obtained by the FOIA.

    Site:  http://www.blackvault.com

John G. told me how he captured many UFO's following a technique
that he learned from 'JohnBro' and has come to a particular way
to observe day light "strange objects" when videotaping against
the sun's face trying to avoid direct sunlight and filming
almost the aura of the sun.

There are amazing results and you may see some of them at:

       http://www.blackvault.com/johnbro.shtml

"JohnBro" (johnbro@earthlink.net) was recently on the television
show SIGHTINGS which aired a segment entitled "Solar
Obliteration". Though Sightings was skeptical, when they went
out to John's home in Reseda, California and tried this
technique themselves, and got the same images, they knew that
this was not a joke. They spent well into the thousands of
dollars getting these images analyzed, by sending them to
Village Labs in Phoenix, Az. They couldn't put a positive
identity on them, but they could say this:

  1.They were a great distance from the camera
  2.They are traveling at a high velocity
  3.They are structured craft

There you'll find also the first known photograph of a UFO taken
by Jose A.Y. Bonilla a Mexican Astronomer on August 12 of 1883
at Zacatecas City, Zacatecas,Mexico.

I hope you'll take nice 'shots'.

Best regards

Alex Franz alcione.org

TAURUS horoscope sept 14, 1998. "It's okay to indulge yourself a
little, or maybe even a lot. If you can't find people who will
let you have it your way, spend some quality time with yourself.
Remember that you'll need to rejoin the human
race eventually".






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   Sep > Sep 14

                         Re: Brown Mountain Lights?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 20:29:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:57:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Brown Mountain Lights?


>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Re: Brown Mountain Lights?
>Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 16:19:54 EDT

>>Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 06:08:20 -0700
>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>

>>Its called the "piezo-electric effect". My cigarette lighter has
>>a little piece of quartz inside. When the little lever strikes
>>it, with less energy than required to light up a Zippo lighter
>>by far, it shoots a spark of at least 2000 volts sufficient to
>>light the butane fuel. It works great ..

>Hi Larry,

>For what it's worth, I once checked that little device out on my
>own DVM and got roughly 40kv.

Wow! That's one good zap, and an awfully fast DVM. I would have
thought it would take a "memory" type oscilloscope to trace such
an event.

>It's a good theory. My only problem is, when the San Andreas
>fault lets go from time to time, one would think the amount of
>rock crushing and grinding that occurs would have the entire
>line lit up like a christmas tree, with "UFOs" flying all over the
>place. Doesn't seem to happen that way though. [ - Greg ]

No, it doesn't, and thats partly my point. The "earthlights"
theory alone just doesn't cut it. I am sure an honest skeptic
would agree, but point out other likely mundane causes.
That still doesn't cut it in my opinion.

High charges generated underground would most likely discharge
underground. Some may appear at the surface.

I went thru the Loma Prieta quake of 1989. I hid under my desk
right after the first shock. I was working at National
Semiconductor at the time, in Santa Clara, CA. This desk slapped
me from both sides when the main shocks struck.

I read everything I could find about the quake, there was plenty.

There was no mention of strange fireballs, earthlights, nothing
of the sort.

If there were any UFOs, nobody was looking up. Everybody
was probably looking at the mess on the ground, I certainly was.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch






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   Sep > Sep 14

                      Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:40:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:10:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'


Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 12:31:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'

>Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 00:15:39 +0200
>From: Bourdais Gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Roswell, and 'Alien Rapture'

>so why did they - I mean Col. Blanchard and those who gave him
>the green light, most probably - why did they take that risk ?

>Because, perhaps, on the early morning of Tuesday 8, they had
>very good reasons to fear that the discovery of the debris field
>was going to become public. Now suppose it happened and they had
>said nothing : they would have had a very difficult time with
>the press ! [...]

>Gildas,

>In addition to this, has the obvious explanation yet been given
>much consideration by ufologists? That is, peel away 50 years of
>UFO sightings and reports worldwide and realize that back in
>mid-1947 the UFO phenomenon was scarcely yet known, of which
>governments would initiate plans for hiding the evidence and
>covering up or falsifying the reports. So aren't the odds
>substantial that some naive military personnel would have
>reported the facts honestly, blurting out the truth, before
>superiors had had time (give them at least a day) to formulate a
>policy that would withhold unacceptable information like this
>from the public?

In addition to these two fine points- might I add this? Perhaps
it was _because_ of the press release, that the U.S.
government/Air Force was forced into a position of utmost
secrecy. Perhaps, if Col. Blanchard had not ran right to the
press, and there had been time for the military to adequately
examine the wreckage and evaluate the situation and its
potential effect on the U.S./world situation (coming out of
WWII) and on national security, that those in charge might have
been more forthcoming with the true nature of what they had on
their hands.

But, when forced point blank to give an immediate "yes" or "no"
answer to heavy inquiry from the press, the Air Force, (quite
rightly, I think) in the interest of national security was
forced to lie about the true nature of the UFO. Thus began a 50
year legacy of perpetuating a lie- It is not an easy thing for a
person or a government to reveal the truth, when they have been
lying already. The more you lie, the more you are forced to lie.

If Col. Blanchard had not been so over eager at such a crucial
point, perhaps now we would all know what crash at Roswell...

-Scott C. Carr

Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY





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   Sep > Sep 14

                         Keith Basterfield Home Page

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 06:56:16 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:13:09 -0400
Subject: Keith Basterfield Home Page


Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
tkbnetw@fan.net.au
*******************************************
Please Post

Keith Basterfield Home page

URL http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw


The Aussie Link, linking all UFO Groups & Researchers down under.

Enjoy

Regards Diane
Sharing is caring :>)
Happy Posting






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                          Re: Brown Mountain Lights

From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@foto.infi.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:32:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:07:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Brown Mountain Lights


>Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 04:46:43 -0400
>From: Doc Landry <landryp1@home.com>
>Organization: Forensic Pathology/Criminology
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: re- Brouwn Mountain Lights

>Hello everyone:

>I would like to thank everyone for their help with the Brown
>Mountain lights. I really like that song. I will let you know
>what I find as I hopefully will be heading down there in a few
>weeks. Again thanks all;-)

>Doc (Diane)

>--
>Diane Landry


Doc, I am doing a little piece on the Brown Mountain Lights for
next week's issue. Not that much material though. The main story
is on Orbs. If you come across some additional info.. please
forward along my way.

Thanks.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Stefan Duncan
Director of XPI
Editor of AUFON
5396 Sumac Circle
Fayetteville, N.C. 28304
swduncan@foto.infi.net
http://www.aufon.com
ICQ 11878618
(910-425-2976)








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   Sep > Sep 14

                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Doc Barry authority@webtv.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:46:48 -0700 (MST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:11:42 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show

The in-flight gun-camera footage of a saucer was spectacular. The
Roswell event had no film of a crashed saucer to evaluate. This
KGB film, real, staged as a cold-war disinfo item, or an outright
hoax, will lead to more revelations from Iron-curtain files.
Eliminating the partial cadaver exam, the show was the best UFO
documentary of the year.

I give it five stars.

== Doc

~~~~~Get BREAKING news plus UFO/ET news - NOW - click on "What's Up
Doc?" www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518






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             Re: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kirgizstan - The Real story

From: Anatoly Kutovoy <kutovoj@mail.iae.lt>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:46:56 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:54:21 -0400
Subject: Re: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kirgizstan - The Real story


>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story
>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:24:42 -0500

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story
>>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:38:44 PDT

>>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:20:28 -0400
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story

>>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:59:57 +0200
>>From: Anatoly Kutovoy <kutovoj@MAIL.IAE.LT>
>>Subject: Shaitan Mazar. Real story.
>>To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

>>The Devil's Grave. Almost Fantastic Story.

>>By Nikolay Subbotin,
>>Director RUFORS (Russian UFO Research Station)

><snip>

>>Dear List,

>>For me this sounds more like a phantasy story but I would sure
>>like to see some real evidence.

>>Has anybody seen any satellite photography of the site?

><snip>

>>Leanne Martin
>>Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia

>Leanne -- I asked the same question a couple of weeks
>back when this story first came to my attention.
>There was a suggestion then that such satellite photos did exist.
>However, my requests re the same have gone unanswered.

>My belief --it's a nice little, old-fashioned sci-fi story.

>(Though I could check out terraserver.com :))

>Brian

Dear Brian,

I have written once and only repeat now.
Without reference to that is "old-fashioned sci-fi story" or "phantasy story", t
he crashed UFO is "on a place".

If you have facility to order the satellite photographs, I
(and others) will be glad for your help.

I _had_ once requested these photos and my requests have
gone unanswered.

Why do you not wish to help us if you have the better chances
for that??

Best regards,

Anatoly Kutovoy
RUFORS Follower, Lithuania

----------





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                      UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 37

From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:19:06 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:36:16 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 37


Hi!  Here's this week's issue.
    UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 3, Number 37
September 14, 1998
Editor: Joseph Trainor

TWO FIGHTER PLANES LOST
OFF COAST OF JAPAN

     On Tuesday, August 25, 1998, at about 6:30 p.m.,
three Mitsubishi F-1 fighter jets of Japan's Air Self-
Defense Force (ASDF) took off from the Misawa Air
Base, heading for a training exercise off the coast
of Honshu island.
     Japanese air traffic controllers lost radio contact
with two of the three jets at approximately 6:58 p.m.
Both jets vanished from the radar screen at the same
moment.
     The pilot of the third plane radioed that he had
seen "a red fireball during the flying maneuvers."
     The two missing ASDF pilots were identified as
1st Lt. Hirokazu Nagai, 29, and 1st Lt. Madoka
Nakaya, 29.
     Both F-1s disappeared over the Pacific Ocean
about 60 kilometers (36 miles) east of Kuji, a city
in northern Iwate prefecture about 600 kilometers
(360 miles) north of Tokyo.
     Japan's Self-Defense Forces and Maritime
Safety Agency dispatched 13 patrol boats and
13 planes to search the area.  Early Wednesday
morning, August 26, one boat found a fragment
from one of the F-1s, measuring "50 centimeters by
30 centimers, dark green on the top and white on
the bottom," thought to be a part of a jet's
horizontal stabilizer.
     The Japanese government confirmed that the
third pilot had mentioned a fireball but stated that
the two jets "disappeared after apparently colliding
Tuesday evening during low-altitude drills."  (See
Japan Times for September 5, 1998, "Missing
Fighters."  Many thanks to Stig Agermose for
forwarding the newspaper article.)

SPHERICAL UFO HOVERS
OVER FRENCH BACKYARD

     On Sunday afternoon, September 6, 1998, a
family of four living in Voreppe, a town near
Grenoble in the French Alps, received the shock
of their lives.
     Looking up, the unidentified husband and wife,
their three-year-old child and the grandmother
spotted "a slow, hovering, seemingly metallic
shiny sphere about two meters (6.6 feet) above
the top of a cherry tree."
     As the UFO hovered and hummed, the man
ran indoors to fetch his camcorder.  When he
rushed back outside, he switched it on and
"shot two minutes of videotape, showing the
departure of the object."
     The family then telephoned the Gendarmerie
(French police--J.T.)  The officers took the
videotape, contacted SEPRA, the French
government agency devoted to UFO research,
and reportedly advised the witnesses "not to speak
to any ufologists about the incident."
     Two investigators from the SEPRA office in
Toulouse spent two days investigating the encounter
scene.  They took burned branches from the cherry
tree for lab analysis.
     In a brief statement, SEPRA said the videotape
was "very interesting" and "useable" in terms of
further UFO research.
     The case was also investigated by the
Rhone-Alpes delegation of SOS OVNI, the French
ufological study group, which is based in Lyon.
     On Friday, September 11, 1998, representatives
of the Centre Nacional des Etudes Spaciaux (CNES)
saw the videotape and also interviewed the four
eyewitnesses.
     Jean-Jacques Velasco of CNES said the UFO
"looks as if it is floating and then moves away in a
curious way."  He described the object as "a round
disc, about 5 meters (16.5 feet) across with a few
protuberances coming out of it and a red ring around
its bottom."
     Voreppe is in the department of Isere about 400
kilometers (240 miles) southeast of Paris.  (Merci
beaucoup a Perry Petrakis de SOS OVNI pour ces
nouvelles.)

NEW "ANGEL HAIR" CASE IN
NEW SOUTH WALES

     On August 9, 1998, Eunice Stansfield, her
daughter and her son-in-law Mario witnessed a fall
of "angel hair" from a squadron of 20 silver-sphere
UFOs near Quirindi, a town in New South Wales,
Australia.
     However, a second "angel hair" incident took
place the same day, three hours earlier at 2 p.m.
     That day, Gary S., a Telstra technician, drove
from his home in Gunnedah, N.S.W. to the
telephone exchange at Piallaway, 40 kilometers
(24 miles) north of Quirindi, to do some repair work.
     Reaching his destination at about 2 p.m., Gary
emerged from his car and "noticed masses of white
cobweb-like material falling down all around him,
falling onto fences, telephones lines and onto his
car.  He could not see anything up in the clear
blue sky at all."
     Gary telephoned the Stansfields after reading
about their experience in the Sydney Daily Telegraph
for August 11, 1998.
     Meanwhile, Mrs. Stansfield and her daughter
had saved several long filaments of the white material
and stored them in a yogurt jar.  They turned over the
sample to ufologists Moira McGhee of INUFOR and
Bryan Dickeson of UFORNSW on August 13.
     They reportedly made arrangements with ufologist
Bill Chalker to have the sample tested at a private
laboratory in Sydney.  Among the tests scheduled are
vacuum chamber and gas chromatography analysis.
     Piallaway, N.S.W. is about 340 kilometers
(204 miles) northwest of Sydney.  (See Australian
UFO Reports and Encounters #7 for September 1998.
Many thanks to editor Robert Frola for letting UFO
Roundup quote from the issue.)

ROUNDUP CORRIGENDA:
     In last week's issue, your editor wrote that the
mysterious slaying of a lamb by a large black
panther-like beast in Western Australia took place
"on a station," or ranch as we say here in the USA.
Roundup reader Harry Mason informs me that the
events happened "mostly on small holding farms
and house properties and in adjacent National Park/
Water Board land...These events have happened
within an hour's drive of Perth/Fremantle in what we
call Rural OZ, literally on the edge of civilization."
Thanks for setting us straight, Harry.

UFO PHOTOGRAPHED ON A
MOUNTAIN IN CROATIA

     On Monday, September 7, 1998, photographer
Dijano Pavlinovic and a friend, Milivoj Vela, left their
hometown of Podgora in southern Croatia and hiked
up to the Biokovo alpine valley.
     Along the way, Pavlinovic shot many photos of
flowers, hillsides and ridges.  He hopes to use them
in a future exhibition entitled Flowers and Stones.
     While developing the pictures at a photo shop in
Podgora, Pavlinovic "nearly fell on his bottom in
surprise.  Dijano, who is in love with his home area,
had apparently photographed something that
apparently does not have any connection" with the
Biokovo region.  "To be more precise, it doesn't have
any connection with any area on this planet."
     "'What do you think this is?' Dijano asked, showing
the photo to the owner of the shop."
     "'Dijano!  Mother of God, you have photographed
a spaceship!' the man said, crossing himself."
     All eight customers in the shop rushed to have a
look at the photo, "and everyone agreed that Dijano
had had a close encounter of the third kind."
     "Immediately, several people of Podgora" hiked
up to Biokovo "to see if the aliens were still there."
     "So here was only this photograph--unexplainable
flash of the saucer above stones and plants, probably
containing visitors who didn't stop for food or coffee
and who are not interested in when the Split/Zagreb
road (Highway 7) will be finished."
     Podgora is a small city near the port of Ploche,
about 275 kilometers (165 miles) south of Zagreb,
Croatia's capital.  (See the Croatian newspaper
Slobodna Dalmacija for September 10, 1998,
page 5.  Many thanks to Giuliano Marinkovic of
AGETI for this news story.)

TRIANGULAR UFO SEEN BY
FOUR OVER WEYMOUTH

     On Sunday, August 30, 1998, at just after
10 p.m., Mark G. and three companions were "on a
road near the old coast road" in Weymouth, Dorset,
UK when they spotted something unusual in the sky.
     "One of our party noticed something and pointed,
I think, to the east," Mark reported.  "I looked across
and saw three faint but glowing lights similar to stars,
arranged in an irregular triangular shape.  They were
also ten degrees above the horizon and moving across
the sky to the right, keeping the same elevation,
heading south or southwest, I think."
     "The triangular shape the lights made was actually
rotating clockwise as they were moving, and I got the
impression that the lights did not keep the same
distance from each other as they rotated."
     "The 'shape' was probably a little smaller than a
coin at arm's length and seemed to be several
miles away.  I had it in view for about eight seconds
and then lost sight, as it was going quite fast.  It
covered about 90 degrees of the horizon in this time.
I told the others that I had lost sight, but one of them
still had it in view, saying several other lights had
appeared to the right.  They also disappeared
from view."
     Mark added that he "cannot think of anything
airbourne that would behave in that way."
     Weymouth is on Britain's south coast about
110 miles (176 kilometers) southwest of London.
(Email Interview)

TWO UFOs SPOTTED IN
SOUTHERN TURKEY

     On Saturday, August 22, 1998, at about
12:30 a.m., travel agent Hakan Solyer, his
wife and his brother's wife were on a quiet
beach near Antalya, a Turkish city on the
Mediterranean Sea.
     Suddenly, "We saw two lights coming from
the Olympos Valley," Hakan reported, "The UFOs
were very close to each other and very fast.  The
closest UFO to us was very bright.  We did not
see any colored lights on their wings or hear any
sound."
     The trio then spied a third UFO.  "They moved
very fast, creating a delta-shape, and in a very short
time they became like stars and disappeared.  For
these reasons, we do not think they were military
jets.  We could not see any stars for a while in the
area where they disappeared.  Three of us observed
them--my wife, my brother's wife and myself."
     Antalya is on Turkey's south coast about
360 kilometers (216 miles) southwest of Ankara,
the national capital.  (See Filer's Files #36 for 1998.
Many thanks to George A. Filer, Eastern director
of MUFON for this news story.)

TRIANGULAR UFO SEEN AT
ENSCHEDE, NETHERLANDS

     Triangular UFOs were seen in the Netherlands
during August, at the same time similar UFOs
were observed over the Ardennes forest in nearby
France and Belgium.
     According to Dutch ufologist Andy Denne of
A.U.R.A., residents of Enschede, a city located
200 kilometers (120 miles) east of Amsterdam,
on August 1, 1998 "saw a lone dark triangle.
After watching the object flying in a straight line for
30 minutes, it suddenly changed its course and
shot off in the direction of the German border."
     On August 12, 1998, other Enschede residents
"observed a triangular UFO with a bright white light at
each corner.  The witnesses reported seeing the
object three times" that night.
     This case was investigated by UFO Werkgruppe
Nederland, a UFO study group based in Enschede.
     According to UFO Werkgruppe Nederland, "all of
them (the witnesses) saw the object in the evening at
11 p.m., 11:15 p.m. and at about 11:45 p.m."
     The first sighting reported "three lights in a triangle."
     During the second sighting at 11:15 p.m., "the three
lights were moving.  And later, seen by one of the
witnesses, moving around each other."
     During the third sighting at 11:45 p.m., "the three
lights were again in a triangular shape.  There was
no sound."  (Many thanks to Errol Bruce-Knapp and
UFO Werkgruppe Nederland for this story.)

DAYLIGHT DISC SIGHTED
IN BIG SPRING, TEXAS

     On Monday, September 7, 1998, at 2:40 p.m.,
ufologist Mike Harman was driving west on
Interstate Highway I-20 near Big Spring, Texas
(population 23,093) "when I suddenly had an urge
to look left out of my car window."
     "I spotted a silver or gray-colored saucer moving
in an easterly direction," Mike reported.  "I could
make out the oval or saucer shape quite clearly...it
had no wings or tail.  It reflected the sunlight as it
went by.  The UFO was in view for approximately
10 seconds and was moving rather slowly throughout
the sighting."
     "If this object had been any smaller, I probably
would not have been able to make out its shape and
eventually lost sight of it as it moved into the clear
blue sky."
     Big Spring, Texas is approximately 293 miles
(469 kilometers) west of Dallas.  (Many thanks to
Mike Harman for this news story.)

POSSIBLE "MISSING TIME"
CASE IN TENNESSEE

     On Monday, September 7, 1998, at 9:30 p.m.,
college student Elizabeth G., age 18, left her
friend's house to drive home.  It's a fifteen-minute
drive.
     However, Elizabeth did not arrive home until
10:45 p.m.  Moreover, she has no recollection
of driving on Interstate Highway I-40 between
White Pine (population 1,771) and Dandridge
(population 1,540), Tennessee.
     According to her mother, Patricia G.,
Elizabeth "had just gotten on Interstate 81 south.
She only remembers what she thought was a
semi truck's lights behind her--then waiting until
the stop sign changed at the 417 exit."
     The next thing Elizabeth knew, "she was
pulling into our driveway (at 10:45 p.m.), feeling
disoriented, confused and extremely anxious."
     The next day, Elizabeth found "a red mark
on the nape of her neck" that she could not explain.
     Patricia explained that her daughter is a college
freshman and a National Honor Society student.
The family, which formerly resided in Edgewood,
New Mexico, moved to Tennessee four years ago.
     Dandridge is located 31 miles (49 kilometers)
east of Knoxville, Tennessee.
     Both mother and daughter have been plagued
by recurring bouts of clicking or humming noises
in the head, quite different from conventional
tintinnitis symptoms.  (Email Interview)

SKYWATCHER SPOTS UFOs
IN TAYLORSVILLE, KENTUCKY

     On Wednesday, September 9, 1998, skywatcher
Mary S. grabbed her 50X binoculars and went out in
the backyard of her home in Taylorsville, Kentucky
(population 774).  She decided to use the "sun watch"
technique in an effort to spot UFOs.
     She reported several sightings.
     9:40 a.m. - Mary spotted "a white oval shape at
about 55 degrees" above the horizon.  "I watched
until the object vanished."
     10:28 a.m. - "Small white oval objects moving,
seemed to zigzag about 60 degrees."
     10:32 a.m. - "Bright white streak (USAF jet?--J.T.)
moving north to northeast about 80 degrees."
     12:32 p.m. - "Several small white objects seemed
to be floating, moving south to southeast about 65 to
70 degrees."
     1:07 p.m. - "A small white vapor that made three
small arches in the sky, although I could not see a
shape."
     1:33 p.m. - "Swirls of vapor lasted about 8 seconds.
The swirls were constantly changing direction."
     1:59 p.m. - "A white oval shape about 85 degrees
seemed to come from the south.  It disappeared after
about five to seven seconds."
     Mary added, "I am a devout Catholic and, as God
is my witness, this is true.  I know now for a fact
there are UFOs.  This is nothing that can be explained
away."
     Taylorsville is at the intersection of Kentucky
Highways 44 and 55, about 30 miles (48 kilometers)
southeast of Louisville.  (Email Interview)

UFOs SIGHTED NEAR
FAIRFIELD, ILLINOIS

     Several local men, including a former mayor, saw
strange bright lights dancing in the sky at Pond
Creek in Fairfield, Illinois (population 5,439) on
Wednesday night, September 2, 1998.
     According to the Evansville, Indiana Courier,
"A group of Wayne County men, including a former
Fairfield mayor and a police officer, say they saw
strange lights in the area Wednesday night."
     "The men, who were attending a private gathering
in the Pond Creek bottom near Fairfield, said a
sequence of bright white lights, then bright orange
appeared about every five to ten minutes for about
an hour."
     "'They started shining up around 9:30 p.m.--
bright white lights dancing around in the sky,' said
Fairfield police officer Braden Willis.  'When the white
light disappeared, we all heard what sounded like
distant thunder rolling toward us.'"
     "Harold Tubbs, former Fairfield mayor, his son
Richie and several Fairfield Municipal workers told
the Wayne County Sheriff's Department they saw
the lights."
     "One possible explanation was that the 101st
Fighter Group out of Terre Haute, Ind. (Indiana--J.T.)
often flies in that area, said Jeff Light, an Evansville,
Ind. Regional Airport air traffic control spokesman."
     "A spokesman for the National Weather Service
at Paducah, Ky. (Kentucky--J.T.) said there was no
unusual weather phenomena Wednesday night."
     Fairfield is on Illinois Highway 15 about
311 miles (497 kilometers) south of Chicago.
The town is also 55 miles (88 kilometers) northwest
of Evansville, Ind., which has been the site of much
UFO activity during the past few months.
(See the Evansville, Ind. Courier for September 4,
1998, "What's That?" by reporter Len Wells.  Many
thanks to Errol Bruce-Knapp for forwarding the
newspaper article.)

SATELLITE JINX SPREADS
TO BAIKONUR--TWELVE
ORBITERS DESTROYED

     Finishing off the summer of 1998 was the
most catastrophic satellite disaster yet.
     On Thursday, September 10, 1998, Russia
tried to launch a rocket carrying 12 commercial
satellites from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in
neighboring Kazakhstan.
     The Zenit-2 rocket lifted off from Baikonur
on schedule.  However, five minutes into the
flight, the rocket engines suddenly and
unexpectedly shut down.
     "The Ukrainian manufacturer acknowledged
it might be responsible, saying it was probably
a computer malfunction."
     Aboard the Zenit-2 were twelve Globalstar
communications satellites, "built by Space Systems
Loral, a subsidiary of Loral Space and
Communications Ltd. of New York.  The satellites
were going to be used as part of a $2.6 billion
global hand-held mobile satellite phone system,
said company spokesman David Benton."
     According to news reports, the rocket and
its payload of satellites "partially burned up"
during reentry into Earth's atmosphere.
(See the Providence, R.I. Journal for September 11,
1998, "U.S. satellites destroyed in Russian-led
launch," page A-7)
(Editor's Comment:  We just keep losing satellites,
don't we?  First the Galaxy 4, then the Solar and
Heliospheric Observatory (SOHO), then the Vortex,
then the Galaxy 10, now the Globalstar bunch.
No mention of this in the mainstream media,
though. I wonder why...)

SWISSAIR 111 COCKPIT VOICE
RECORDER DISCOVERED

     On Friday, September 11, 1998, searchers located
and retrieved the cockpit voice recorder from the sunken
wreckage of Swissair Flight 111, the MD-11 jetliner
that crashed in St. Margaret's Bay in Nova Scotia,
Canada on Wednesday, September 2, 1998, killing
all 229 people aboard.
     As of Saturday, September 12, Canadian
authorities indicated that they would not release a
transcript of the last moments of conversation
between pilot Urs Zimmerman, copilot Stephan Loew
and Air Traffic Control at Moncton, New Brunswick.
     The discovery of the second black box climaxed
a week of startling developments in the search.
     Swissair 111's flight data recorder was found
last weekend "five miles offshore at a depth of 190
feet by divers working with hand-held sonar devices.
(Chief crash investigator Vic) Gerden said the 12
divers were able to work at that depth for only
about seven minutes at a time, with their visibility
limited to about 10 feet."  (See the Boston, Mass.
Herald  for September 7, 1998, "Searchers find
crucial clues.")
     Canada moved more troops into the search
area earlier this week, including the Fourth Air
Defense Regiment from CFB Gagetown and
First Battalion, Nova Scotia Highlanders Reserve
Infantry.
     "The search also extended to several small
islands near the crash area that had not been
combed before yesterday (September 6, 1998).
said Canadian Army Capt. Mike Notaro of the
Fourth Air Defense Regiment in Gagetown.  'The
problem is, you can clear a beach, then the tide
comes in again and it leaves again, so it is one
step forward and two steps back,' he said."
     "The young regiment members--many just
19 or 20 years old--use large sticks that they
find on the beaches to turn over rocks and to
steady themselves as they walk along the
slippery shoreline searching for debris from
the plane."  (See the Boston Herald for
September 7, 1998, "Locals pray for crash
victims." page 5.)
     On Wednesday, September 9, 1998, the
USS Grapple arrived off Blandford, N.S. to
assist in recovery of pieces of the aircraft's
fuselage.
     "Commissioned in 1986, the Grapple is
one of four (U.S.) Navy rescue-and-salvage
ships."
     "On board the Grapple are 32 Navy divers
who can go as deep as 190 feet with the help
of a diving stage or open bell that is lowered
by cable from the ship...The ship carries a
robotic submersible known as a Remotely
Operated Vehicle (ROV) that uses cameras,
lasers and sonars to map the ocean at depths
of 7,200 feet."  (See USA Today for September 9,
1998, "Ship crucial in TWA recovery to help in
Nova Scotia," page 4A.)
     Information from the recovered flight data
recorder has only deepened the mystery of
what happened to the aircraft.
     "Sixteen minutes after the first report of
trouble, Flight 111 crashed.  A transponder
aboard the jet had stopped broadcasting its
position, and the flight data recorder showed
that it stopped processing data at about
10,000 feet, both suggesting a power failure
aboard the jet, which spiraled clockwise
sharply into the sea."  (See USA Today for
September 8, 1998, "Swissair pilots had few
options, little time," page 15A.)
     On Thursday, September 10, Gerden "also
gave new details about the last minutes of
Flight 111...He said the last signal from the
plane came just after 10:26 p.m. Atlantic
(Halifax) time (9:26 p.m. EDT (New York) time)
when it was flying at 9,700 feet at a speed of
275 miles per hour."
     "The plane disappeared from radar screens
five minutes later, and a few seconds after that
an impact was recorded on seismic graphs at
a geological center 25 miles away near
Halifax, Gerden said."
     "Gerden said the plane's recovered flight
data recorder indicated irregularities in various
systems on the plane during the last five
minutes before the recorder stopped working,
one minute before the plane's last signal."
(See the Providence, R.I. Journal for Friday,
September 11, 1998, "Swissair jet crashed
into ocean with tremendous impact," page A13.)
     "Investigators say a fire in the electronics
bay could offer one explanation for the
increasing garbled data contained by the
flight data recorder.  Gerden said recovered bits
of cockpit, including a piece of seat cover, show
signs of heat and soot."
     "But he said more analysis was needed:
'We have not yet had enough time to understand
the significance of of the sequence and the
patterns of these fault codes that were
developing.'" (See USA Today for September 11,
1998, "Flight data recorder shows faulty
electronics," page 11A)
(Editor's Comment:  Lest we forget, the USS
Grapple assisted in the deep-water recovery
of TWA Flight 800 back in August 1996.
Also, the Grapple's sister ship, USS Grasp,
recovered pieces of the demolished Challenger
space shuttle from the ocean off Cape Canaveral,
Florida back in 1986.)

from the UFO Files...

1978: ITALIAN BARBER MEETS
          TWO SMALL ALIENS

     Twenty years ago, on September 17, 1978, a UFO
flap rocked the small community of Torrita di Siena
in Italy.
     It started at 8:15 p.m. "when a woman and her son
saw a descending red ball illuminating the area, and
watched houselights black out."
     "Shortly afterwards a barber got in his car and
drove a few meters, when suddenly his engine and lights
went out as a bright object descended over the road just
ahead of his car."
     "Hovering about a half-meter over the road was a
3-meter orange-red diameter domed disc with three
light beams extending to the road.  A panel opened,
and two humanoids about 1.2 meters (4 feet) tall,
wearing green coveralls and helmets with antennae,
'floated' toward the car.  They circled the car, apparently
more interested in it than the passengers.  Then they
entered the UFO which took off in a flash of light and
explosive sound."
     "Three scorched circles about 50 centimeters in
diameter were found on the road surface, apparently
correspinding to the three lights beams."  (See
MUFON UFO Journal #153 for November 1980,
"The Italian UFO Wave of 1978" by Richard Hall.
See also UNINVITED GUESTS by Richard Hall,
Aurora Press, Santa Fe, N.M. 1988, page 297.)

FUN UFO WEBSITES:
     For the latest in UFO sightings in Latin America,
check out Dr. Virgilio Sanchez Ocejo's Miami UFO
Reporter.  It's at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/
Comdor/1341/index.html
     Scott Corrales's Inexplicata website is now up
and running.  There are plenty of great UFO and
Chupacabras stories at Scott's site at this URL:
http://www.inexplicata.com
     Anthony Chippendale has revamped his
UFO NET website.  Drop in and check out the
all-new features at http://www.ufo-net.clara.net
     Don't miss our parent site, UFO INFO.  Some
new artwork is available, I hear.  Be sure to stop
in at http://ufoinfo.com
     Back issues of UFO Roundup can be read
and downloaded at our webpage.  Log in at
http://ufoinfo.com/roundup for the best in
UFO reading.

     Tomorrow is the birthday of Murray Gellman, the
USA physicist who won the Nobel Prize in 1969
for proving the existence of that peculiar particle
known as the quark.  He was born 69 years ago,
on September 15, 1929.

     And we'll be back next weekend with more
saucer news from around the planet, brought to
you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup.
See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1998 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
items from UFO Roundup on their websites or in
newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter
and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.







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   Sep > Sep 14

             Re: Who is Nelson Marcel [was: Symbols Discovered]

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:44:40 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:52:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Who is Nelson Marcel [was: Symbols Discovered]

>From: Jean-Luc Rivera <PSaintc798@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 12:34:57 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

Dear Jean-Luc-

>Please excuse my ignorance but who is Nelson Marcel ?

Sorry, I should have made that clear. Nelson Marcel is a
cousin of Jesse Marcel, Sr. Both Marcels lived in Houma,
Lousiana and apparently were in close contact. Nelson
claims that Jesse told him about the bodies many years
ago.

>I would like to take this opportunity to ask you if you could
>give us some details on why Mrs. Marcel Sr. testimony (she was
>in the kitchen that fateful night) is not acceptable (this was
>touched upon lightly in an earlier thread).

>Jean-Luc Rivera

When I had the opportunity to speak with Mrs. Marcel, Sr., it was
clear that she had no real memories of the events. The stories she
told about it simply were not grounded in reality. The problem here
has nothing to do with the reality of the Roswell case, but because
old age was setting in. Since there was now nothing that she could
contribute with out prompting and coaching, and which would be
tainted, it seemed best to leave the lady alone.

That is not to say that had I had the opportunity to speak with her
four or five years earlier, I might have received some valuable
information. But when I finally did meet her, it was just too late.

KRandle






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   Sep > Sep 14

                           Re: UFO Video Technique

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:09:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:58:07 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Video Technique

>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:51:47 -0500
>From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO Video Technique

<snip>

>John G. told me how he captured many UFO's following a technique
>that he learned from 'JohnBro' and has come to a particular way
>to observe day light "strange objects" when videotaping against
>the sun's face trying to avoid direct sunlight and filming
>almost the aura of the sun.

>There are amazing results and you may see some of them at:

>       http://www.blackvault.com/johnbro.shtml

>"JohnBro" (johnbro@earthlink.net) was recently on the television
>show SIGHTINGS which aired a segment entitled "Solar
>Obliteration". Though Sightings was skeptical, when they went
>out to John's home in Reseda, California and tried this
>technique themselves, and got the same images, they knew that
>this was not a joke. They spent well into the thousands of
>dollars getting these images analyzed, by sending them to
>Village Labs in Phoenix, Az. They couldn't put a positive
>identity on them, but they could say this:

>  1.They were a great distance from the camera
>  2.They are traveling at a high velocity
>  3.They are structured craft

>There you'll find also the first known photograph of a UFO taken
>by Jose A.Y. Bonilla a Mexican Astronomer on August 12 of 1883
>at Zacatecas City, Zacatecas,Mexico.

>I hope you'll take nice 'shots'.

>Best regards

>Alex Franz alcione.org


Hi List,

I've been looking through the "JohnBro" images, and I just want
to give some short comments to these.

My opinion is that most of these images - due to the fuzzy
outlines and the changing object sizes and shapes - carries much
resemblance to huge swarms of insects (bees, wasps,
grasshoppers, butterflies etc.).

That is, the objects appearing in these images could very well
be explained by a natural phenomenon.

Any resemblance to metallic object surfaces could be explained
by the sun's reflections, from the rapid movement of the
reflective wings of most of these insects.

I guess that many of the UFO experiences (i.e., sightings and
photos) from throughout the world could be explained by this
"insect phenomenon".

Some other possible explanations could be: (runaway/damaged?)
kites or (weather)
balloons.


Regards
AWS







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   Sep > Sep 14

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:04:01 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:52:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:18:03 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:11:47 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


<snip>

>When I said Marcel had never mentioned bodies, he hadn't, as far
>as I was aware. The reference you cite is relatively new, and I
>thank you for drawing it to my attention. It still strikes me as
>odd, given the number of times that he was interviewed, that he
>wouldn't have mentioned bodies, given that they would have
>substantiated his claims that the debris he also saw was not of
>the earth.

It is odd that he didn't mention the bodies to anyone, as far as
I know, other than cousin Nelson. I don't know the relation or
anything else. Personally, I find the account to be dubious, but
then, it is out there.

>My slice of military "experience" was not meant to suggest that
>Marcel could have never been bypassed. I simply don't see how he
>could not have known, given everything that you have going on at
>the base prior to the second recovery, i.e., base alert, a
>massive recovery of material, autopsies of bodies and so on.

>I'm not a military man, but if all this were going on, I think
>the painter would have been escorted off base, especially if it
>were on alert, until things cooled down. And why was he working
>on the July 4th weekend, anyway?

I would expect Marcel to know as well... However, I have also
seen how these things sometimes work. And I have seen people who
are aware of a situation pretending they don't because they are
not authorized to know.

I don't know why the painter was working on July 4. As for being
escorted off the base when things began to pop, it could be as
simple as someone failing to do it until it was too late. But
remember, as I have pointed out, the story about the painter is
not first hand, so there could be other facts to learn.

>As for the fire department, you say you saw records that
>indicated they went outside the city limits in 1947. I may as
>well ask the obvious: did the records indicate a fire outside
>the city on the date Frankie Rowe indicated, or were those
>records missing?

Not only saw, but have copies. At the time in question, the only
run outside the city limits was on June 21, 1947. There is no
record of a run on either July 2 or July 4. However, Dan Dwyer,
Frankie's father was working on July 4 because he was the
officer in charge of a couple of runs.

Now, there is one curious fact here. According to the fire
department records, Dan Dwyer didn't begin working there until
1948, even though he is the one who filled out the log.

>Someone who presumably didn't stumble across the bodies was
>Joseph Montoya, the Lt. Governor. Are we to assume that Marcel,
>the base intelligence officer, had no need to know about the
>recovered saucer and bodies from the first site, but that
>Montoya did?

Now we move in from military personnel to high ranking local
(New Mexican) politicians. Now we have to speculated as to how
Montoya came into contact with this. It might all spin around
Montoya being an important New Mexican politician that allowed
him on the base to blunder into the situation. Again, I simple
don't have all the answers here. I still have lots of questions.

>You're right, Kevin, I don't know how the military mind works.

>As for Blanchard, there are press releases and PRESS RELEASES, I
>think you would grant. Obviously, he wouldn't have consulted
>higher headquarters before announcing a 4th of July picnic. The
>point is that it's hard to imagine how, after having seen the
>material Marcel had in hand, and presumably debriefing him, he
>issued the specific release that he did.
>That's all.

I confess that I'm confused about it as well because it provides
the necessary sign post. But I'm also confused about the nature
of the press release even if it referred to a weather balloon.
The recovery of a weather balloon is not news in any way, yet we
have Blanchard out there announcing it to the world in such a
way as to draw attention to Roswell.

Walter Haut has said that it was done because Blanchard was
attempting to maintain good relations with the town, but I find
that inadequate. He has also suggested that it was part of the
cover story, designed to end the rumors and the talk. Without
Blanchard around to ask, all we can do is speculate about his
motives.

KRandle





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             -[For The Record]- P-1947: Cabell on Flying Saucers

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@CYBERZONE.NET>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 17:02:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:20:32 -0400
Subject: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Cabell on Flying Saucers

Greetings List,

Here is the entry on flying saucers by MG Cabell on page 246 of his
memoirs, 'A Man of Intelligence'
--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
Telephone: (860) 546-9135

==========

Before I came into Air Intelligence, the "Flying Saucer" reports
had begun to flow in.  Good work had been done in establishing
at the Air Technical Intelligence Center at Wright-Patterson Air
Force Base, Ohio, a project to study and evaluate those reports.
They were completely mystifying and, at times, became very
numerous and wide spread.  A near mass-hysteria developed from
time to time.  For those of us in Air Intelligence who were
officially responsible for the evaluation of reports, they
caused a vast amount of work and puzzlement.

In order to keep this subject in perspective, let it be
remembered that it was not until December 1969 that the Air
Force felt justified in ruling out any substance of a harmful
nature in the mass reports of "Flying Saucers," or "Unidentified
Flying Objects (UFOs)," as they were later called.  Until this
time in 1969, twenty-two years after the first reporting no one
in the government felt confident that the reports could be set
aside.  It took all of those years, the efforts of several
boards of very learned men, and above all, the sophisticated
knowledge that came from our space program, including a
successful landing on the moon, to give this confidence.

We in Air Intelligence in the early days, had little to go on.
We enlisted scientists, engineers, psychologists and just about
every area of knowledge that might have relevance to assist us,
I reminded our people that their jobs were to prove that the
"Flying Saucers" *did* exist, because the alternative method,
that something does not exist, approaches impossible.

Our problem over the years was grossly enlarged because of the
antics of cranks and unscrupulous ones among those who made a
career out of the propagation of "Flying Saucer" stories.





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               -[For The Record]- P-1947: The Beaver Falls, Pa

From: Stan Gordon <PAUFO@WESTOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:55:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:34:00 -0400
Subject: -[For The Record]- P-1947: The Beaver Falls, Pa

To Mark and those on the list:

I previously sent this info on September 11, 1998, but it seems
likely that this message never got through. My service provider
is having serious problems. If some of you could verify that
this message has been posted please let me know.

Message from 09/11/98

In regards to the Beaver Falls, PA photo case, while I wasn't
involved with the investigation, I was aware of it since the
case was then investigated by the Pittsburgh Subcommittee of
NICAP which later became the UFO Research Institute of
Pittsburgh.

In the late 1960's, I became involved with the institute and was
active as their telephone sighting report co-ordinator. Among
others involved were Stanton Friedman and William Weitzel.

The area where the sighting occured has been for years a hotbed
for other UFO incidents. For a detailed account of the case, see
Chapter X of the famous book "Incident At Exeter" by John G.
Fuller.  Also the August-September, 1965 edition of NICAP's "The
UFO Investigator" featured a story on the analysis of the photos
called "New UFO Photos Prove Genuine."  Check with the current
NICAP or Center For UFO Studies for files on the case.

Also check out the 1969 "Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying
Objects", Dr. Edward U. Condon, Project Director, under Case #53.

I hope this helps you out.

FYI

My local service provider is down with technical difficulties.
Therefore my website at www.westol.com/~paufo is currently not
active. Please check it out at a later date. Also the September
9, 1998 edition of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette carried a feature
story "The Kecksburg Files" by David Templeton, on my research
and the video documentary I recently produced on the December
9,1965 Kecksburg, PA UFO crash/retrieval case. You can view the
story by connecting to:

http://www.post-gazette.com/magazine/19980908ufo1.asp

Stan Gordon





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                 -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Greg Long <greglong@PACIFICHARBOR.COM>
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 11:19:16 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:13:49 -0400
Subject: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

The Roswell case is now, in my mind, dead.

What was Roswell all about? It was the case to end all cases. It
was similar to those reports we used to get up through the
1980s--but no more--that there would soon be "revelations"
regarding UFOs from the US Government.

Such a revelation was announced during the Carter
Administration.

That "revelation" never came.

And so Roswell has now entered the long history of failed
revelations, failed "smoking gun" cases, the cases touted to
"blow it wide open."

If you recall, the Ed Walters lie was to be such a case, at
least, photographically. It, too, entered the trash heap of
history as just another hoax.

Roswell, at first--in its initial stages, with the first Schmitt
and Randle book--seemed promising. So many names, so many dates,
and supposedly, if one cocked his/her head the right way, one
could almost believe the "weather balloon" coverup story.

But, then, the second Schmitt and Randle book came out.

Now gray humanoids had entered the scene. Bodies! My God! And
the pieces of "crashed saucer" had been whisked away.

But, odd, every account, every report from UFO witnesses from
the 1947 area never mentions so-called "gray humanoids." In
fact, not until the mid-1960s and 1970s do the strange "grays"
enter the UFO scene. In fact, as one studies such documents as
Flying Saucer Review that has covered the UFO scene for decades,
interesting cases of small creatures with silvery suits and
glass helmets appear in the 1960s, sporting even oxygen
backpacks, quite reminiscent of images from the 1960s space
program and the 1969 moonwalk. Odd. But no grays with large,
black, sinister almond-shaped, slanted eyes in 1947.

Yet suddenly grays now infest the second Roswell book, The Truth
About the Crash at Roswell.

Quite clearly Schmitt and Randle, or their "witnesses," were now
"modernizing" the Roswell story.

Above all, ALL of Schmitt and Randle's witnesses offer no
concrete evidence of any crash at Roswell. One would think that
perhaps photographs of the crashed saucer, even photos of bits
and pieces of metal strewn on the ground, would be in their
possession. Perhaps, one photo would exist showing the military
cordoning off the crash site. Nothing. Perhaps there would be
documents, perhaps even one, demonstrating that something was
trucked from Roswell, then to Fort Worth, then to
Wright-Patterson--at least one document that was reliable. None.

And yet, proof exists of Project Mogul. Proof exists of certain
Mogul launches. Odd. They rose on air currents north, toward
Roswell. One vanished. Strange, could it have crashed near
Roswell?

Odd it was that Mac Brazel found balsa wood and dark-gray
neo-prene material. Strange. There were markings on wood. The
material looked like a flimsy weather balloon, or some type of
balloon material.

But no, this was an advanced alien alloy. In fact, material was
found that, when folded in the hand, miraculously folded back
into its original shape!

Incredible revelations! A balsa wood spaceship. Made, in part,
of tissue paper. And, no photos of the debris field. No photos
of military activity. No documents. But lots of "witnesses."

In 1997, I sat in the audience of a "Town Hall" television show
in Seattle. On the stage was Kal Korff and Kevin Randle to
"debate" Roswell. Months earlier it was revealed by an
enterprising reporter that Donald Schmitt, Randle's
co-researcher, had lied publicly about his education and
professional background. He wasn't formerly a police officer;
nor did he have a college degree.

After the rambling discourse ended and the show was over, Kathy
Andersen with MUFON, introduced me to Randle. She said, "This is
Greg Long. He's writing a book on Kenneth Arnold." Randle's face
instantly went hard and flat; a certain glare entered his eyes.
He said nothing. His behavior was odd. I couldn't quite
understand it. Was it because I had a brain?

Randle had been invited to join MUFON members and others
interested in the UFO subject to have a drink at a Seattle
hotel. As it turned out, a small entourage followed Randle
outside the studio. I was standing on the pavement near
Andersen; she had driven me to the studio, and she was my ride
back to her house where my car waited. She invited Randle to
join her and me in her car--she'd drive him to the hotel. Randle
shot a hard look at me, then at Andersen, and said, "No, thanks,
I'll join the others." And he caught another ride.

About a dozen people ended up at the hotel. Randle walked in. I
asked Randle a number of challenging questions. Among his
answers was that the material from a crashed UFO could be like
"a black box," so advanced that we might never be able to
understand it. I pictured in my mind the flimsy tissue paper,
balsa wood, and blackened plastic material. Clearly, Randle
should be investigating, not Roswell, but the government
conspiracy to hide the truth of Roswell; to find that "black
box." Yet, he didn't seem to be. I knew, in my mind, that he
couldn't. Because there was no government conspiracy.

Shortly, the subject of cattle mutilations came up; I asked
Randle his opinion. He said, in effect, that farmers are
ignorant people and that they are mistaking cattle that have
died of natural causes for mysterious mutilations. He said
something to the effect that farmers are stupid. I don't believe
Randle has ever investigated a mutilated cow.

Yet, I did read somewhere that Randle has written over 20 books,
if my memory serves me right, that have science fiction themes.

It dawned on me, "Greg, you are sitting in front of a science
fiction writer. You need to get a list of those books. Who is
Kevin Randle anyway?"

I thought back to an earlier meeting I had with Randle. It was
in Portland during a book signing for The Truth of the Crash at
Roswell. I approached him with a copy of the book and asked for
his autograph. Clearly, from his blank expression, it was a bit
of an imposition, I could tell. I asked him if he needed a copy
of Project Moon Dust documents. Stan Gordon had just secured
them on micofiche from the US State Department. I followed up
with my own FOIA, and I had just finished hours and hours of
printing them out at the local library. The mound of paper
stands one foot high. In none have I found reference to crashed
space ships, only crashed rocket boosters and satellites. Randle
looked at me with his hard eyes: "That? Our contacts already
have that." He swept away; a busy man with many things to do,
many media appearances to make.

About 10 minutes later, as he and Schmitt were signing books,
Schmitt and I struck up a conversation about balls of light. In
fact, Schmitt was quite interested in my work and had read my
book published by CUFOS. Randle interrupted our conversation:
"Stop talking! We have to sign books, we have money to make!"

I thought, Odd. Was this all just to make money?

Later, near July 4, 1997, I saw Randle on CNN. He was holding a
box from the Testor Corporation that held a model plastic
spaceship, I think designed from the "accounts" of what
"crashed" at Roswell. I thought, He's a science fiction writer.
He sells toys.

A day later I read an article that described the actions of a
woman who had traveled to the "actual" "crash scene" outside
Roswell. She picked up the soil at the site and wept.

And so Roswell has entered UFO history as the case that was to
"break it wide open," to "expose the truth," etc., etc. And now
it has come to two UFO museums in Roswell, T-shirts with gray
alien heads, and desert dirt.

A science fiction story? Yes, a compelling one. As I told Martin
Belderson of Four Winds Productions when he was shooting the
four-part UFO: Down to Earth series for Discovery, "It makes an
interesting story." His eyes brightened, "Yes, yes! It makes a
great story." Later, he proceeded to devastate the "story" in
the Discovery series, bringing it all down to earth: a crashed
Mogul balloon in the paranoid, fear-infested desert of early
post-war America.

Good bye, Roswell. Good-bye, Mr. Randle.



***************************************************************************
Greg Long -- greglong@pacificharbor.com                        425-820-6978
***************************************************************************





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   Sep > Sep 14

                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:56:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:13:55 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show

>From: Doc Barry authority@webtv.net>
>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:46:48 -0700 (MST)
>To: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: KGB Files Show

>The in-flight gun-camera footage of a saucer was spectacular. The
>Roswell event had no film of a crashed saucer to evaluate. This
>KGB film, real, staged as a cold-war disinfo item, or an outright
>hoax, will lead to more revelations from Iron-curtain files.
>Eliminating the partial cadaver exam, the show was the best UFO
>documentary of the year.

>I give it five stars.

>== Doc

>~~~~~Get BREAKING news plus UFO/ET news - NOW - click on "What's Up
>Doc?" www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518

I rolled a tape and will watch it completely this evening.
However, in passing I noticed that there are apparently a number
of actual reels of film that were examined (or at least shown
for the camera).

Is there any indication as to who holds this material now, and
whether or not there will be independant analysis of the film to
confirm its age?

In some twisted way it would make sense that this is a piece of
disinformation film that was shot by the KGB for possible use,
but I'd like to see some proof of that before writing it off
completely.

Since there may be little more than the actual film to go on
(ignoring the annecdotal testimony), it would be good to see how
the images hold up to scrutiny.

As expected, the viewer only got to see small segments of the
film footage, and I would hope that the film sequences in their
entirety will soon be released for review and examination.

Steve






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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:43:35 -0700 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:09:16 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


Hi everyone,

I was one of the people who does not get Ted Turner's TNT on
cable so I missed seeing the UFO Special on Sunday.

Tony from CSETI was kind enough to inform me about a few images
from this UFO special that are now on the CSETI web page.  Is
this something that was staged by the Russians to get some much
needed foreign cash or has Ted Turner succeeded with his
chequebook journalism in finally getting proof on the E.T.
origins of UFOs?  Check the web site below and see for yourself.
I have been busy this morning with many here at York University
who want copies of the CSETI report I have posted on my bulletin
board.

Nick Balaskas

----------

Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 00:55:22 -0700
From: A.J. Craddock <webmaster@cseti.org>
To: webmaster@cseti.org
Subject: Soviet UFO crash - TNT KGB files

For those of you (especially overseas members) that missed the
TNT special broadcast tonight on the Soviet KGB UFO files, I did
some quick video grabs of the UFO crash in Sverdlovsky in March
1969.

These are on the CSETI crash list at:

http://www.cseti.org/crashes/205.htm

Very impressive footage indeed.

I will add a new page with autopsy photos of the torso of the
remains of the recovered ET shortly.

Regards

Tony Craddock
Web Administrator
CSETI
http://www.cseti.org







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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:55:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:21:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:04:01 EDT
To: updates@globalserve.net
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash

>Walter Haut has said that it was done because Blanchard was
>attempting to maintain good relations with the town, but I find
>that inadequate. He has also suggested that it was part of the
>cover story, designed to end the rumors and the talk. Without
>Blanchard around to ask, all we can do is speculate about his
>motives.


Hi Kevin-

Just a thought - is is conceivable that Blanchard, in his press
release, was speaking ironically or sarcastically? By this, I
mean that if he personally believed that all UFO sightings were
misidentifications of conventional craft, balloons, etc.- then
he might have described the Roswell wreckage as a flying disc,
not as an intentional lie, but out of his belief that all
'flying discs' were really just balloons and such. Perhaps his
mindset was in essence, "We've got one of your flying discs, and
look - It's just a balloon", but either this was miscommunicated
or the press merely heard what they wanted. We all know how
rumors can start...

I'm not passing judgement here on the nature of the Roswell
Incident, just pointing out a scenario that might be worth
considering. What do you think?

Sincerely,

-Scott C. Carr
Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY






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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:36:27 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:15:20 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show

>From: Doc Barry authority@webtv.net>
>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:46:48 -0700 (MST)
>To: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: KGB Files Show

>The in-flight gun-camera footage of a saucer was spectacular. The
>Roswell event had no film of a crashed saucer to evaluate. This
>KGB film, real, staged as a cold-war disinfo item, or an outright
>hoax, will lead to more revelations from Iron-curtain files.
>Eliminating the partial cadaver exam, the show was the best UFO
>documentary of the year.

>I give it five stars.

>== Doc

Doc,

Some of the film was indeed interesting. The whole while, though,
I kept wondering: Gee, how did Roger Moore get so down on his
dollars?

Dennis






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                     Fortean Times - No. 114 - Editorial

From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:28:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:28:39 -0400
Subject: Fortean Times - No. 114 - Editorial



Source: Fortean Times [North American Edition] - No. 114
September [October] 1998

Editorial
by
Bob Rickard & Paul Sieveking

War Of The Words

This July saw a strained war of words erupt between the two
leading academic groups of scientists who take an interest in
'paranormal' and fortean phenomena. On 29 July 1998, the Society
for Scientific Exploration (SSE) -- founded in 1982 by 14
professors -- published their journal ('JSE') and drew the media's
attention to its leading article. Called 'Physical Evidence
Related To UFO Reports' it declared some classes of UFO reports
worthy of scientific investigation.

The report -- the first independent scientific review of UFO data
since the Condon Committee 28 years ago -- is available on the
SSE website ( www.jse.com ). It developed from a special six-day
workshop at which a team of eight respected ufologists were
invited to present their best cases invalving physical evidence
to a panel of nine senior scientists, themselves overseen by the
SSE's scientific steering committee.

The report -- presented by Peter Sturrock, a physicist at
Stanford and president of SSE -- cancluded that "there was no
convincing evidence pointing to unknown physical processes or to
the involvement of extraterrestrial intelligence." Nevertheless,
it argued that scientists owed it to themseives and to the
public not to dismiss UFO reports out of hand because there
was always the possibility of learning something new.

So far so good, but this was too much for the Committee for the
Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormai (CSICOP),
founded in 1976 by an equally impressive array of academics and
scientists (www.csicop.org). They responded with a press release
of their own, described in the media as "deriding the report as
a publicity stunt by UFO believers to promote fringe research at
the expense of mainstream science."

It is our belief, having read the material, that the SSE report
makes a serious and honest (if heavy-going at times) attempt to
evaluate some tangible data, but CSICOP's top spokesmen attacked
the integrity of the SSE panel. Philip J. Klass -- CSICOP fellow
and senior editor of Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine
-- complained: "it is unfortunate that the SSE did not assemble
a more balanced roster of UFO investigators to present evidence
to the panel of scientists." Surely the point was to investigate
what specialists thought to be the most credible evidence and,
in any case, the evaluation was done, not by the
investigator-presenters as Klass suggests, but by the panel.

Kendrick Frazier -- CSICOP fellow and editor of their magazine
Skeptikal Inquirer -- even accused the SSE of having "a hidden
agenda". "While presented as neutral and obective... they seem
to be interested in promoting fringe topics as real mysteries
and they tend to ignore most evidence to the contrary." This
is rich coming from CSICQP, whose name is a byword for narrow
vision. An astonishingly ignorant editorial appeared in the New
York Post (1 July 1998), branding the SSE a "superficially
respectable organisation" full of 'credulous academics". It
described ufology as "little green men havinng unusual sex with
hicks in the farm belt" and then dismissed it as "ridiculous".
This insults everyone who labours for a better understanding of
the UFO phenomenon, whatever it is.

In a reply to these rather puerile jibes -- also posted on the
SSE site -- Bernard Haisch, editor of the 'JSE' asks reasonably:
"How can anyone rationally object to a cail for scientific
examination of evidence?"

This is proper procedure, even if it results in a mystery
explained. We can. see this happening in this issue as Karl
Pflock discovers no knowledge of crashed UFOs in early secret
reports; and again when Robert Schoch ponders the ambiguity of
the 10,000-year-oid Yonaguni rock structure. Like the Cydonian
Face, many people want it to be an ancient artifact. But as
William Corliss once said, "Nature is a geometer." You only have
to look at the hexagonal pillars of the Giant's Causeway, the
'paving slabs' of Bimini's underwater 'roads' and even the
Kaimanawa 'wall' (FT92:12) to realise that we forget this at our
peril.

By way of contrast, in this issue, Niklas Rasche demonstrates
how much you can get out of a subject bv considering its
cultural context -- an app~oach that has no place on the agendas
of either the CSICOP or the SSE, but which forteans find
illuminating.

Finally, the time has come ~o begin planning for UnConvention
'99 and to issue a call for papers. If you'd like to make a
presentation on any subject of interest to forteans or would
like to make suggestions for top cs, please contact the
editors at the usual address.


Address all editorial correspondence to:

'Fortean Times'
Box 2409, London NW5 4NP, UK.
Tel:0171 565 3125
Fax; 0171 565 3056

Editor Bob Rickard
E-mail: rickard@forteantimes.com
Fax: 0181 552 5466

Editor Paul Sieveking
E-mail: sieveking@forteantimes.com
Fax: 0171 485 5002

FT Online





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             -[For The Record]- C-E: Sturrock Panel on NPR - .ra

From: Bobby & Peggy Richardson <boreal@VANCE.NET>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 00:35:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:03:11 -0400
Subject: -[For The Record]- C-E: Sturrock Panel on NPR - .ra

I realize that this is somewhat 'old news', but is still
interesting. The following link points to a list of Talk of The
Nation radio shows, broadcast on National Public Radio in July.
Scroll down to the July 3 link.  Requires a RealAudio player.  I
use the newest one, G2, which works great.

http://www.npr.org/programs/totn/archives/1998/9807.totn.html





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               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:27:58 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:12:22 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 11:19:16 -0700
>From: Greg Long <greglong@PACIFICHARBOR.COM>
>Subject: Death of Roswell
>To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

All I can say is WOW. This illustrates the problem with dealing
with people you don't know, or entering into a Ufological
environment where you don't understand the local politics. He
certainly has gone a long way in seeing sinister motives where
there were none. All I can say as that as I accepted the ride in
Seattle, I felt that some believed I had gotten in the wrong
car. Shouldn't have dismissed the cab the TV station supplied.

>The Roswell case is now, in my mind, dead.

>What was Roswell all about? It was the case to end all cases. It
>was similar to those reports we used to get up through the
>1980s--but no more--that there would soon be "revelations"
>regarding UFOs from the US Government.

>Such a revelation was announced during the Carter
>Administration.

>That "revelation" never came.

>And so Roswell has now entered the long history of failed
>revelations, failed "smoking gun" cases, the cases touted to
>"blow it wide open."

>If you recall, the Ed Walters lie was to be such a case, at
>least, photographically. It, too, entered the trash heap of
>history as just another hoax.

>Roswell, at first--in its initial stages, with the first Schmitt
>and Randle book--seemed promising. So many names, so many dates,
>and supposedly, if one cocked his/her head the right way, one
>could almost believe the "weather balloon" coverup story.

>But, then, the second Schmitt and Randle book came out.

>Now gray humanoids had entered the scene. Bodies! My God! And
>the pieces of "crashed saucer" had been whisked away.

>But, odd, every account, every report from UFO witnesses from
>the 1947 area never mentions so-called "gray humanoids." In
>fact, not until the mid-1960s and 1970s do the strange "grays"
>enter the UFO scene. In fact, as one studies such documents as
>Flying Saucer Review that has covered the UFO scene for decades,
>interesting cases of small creatures with silvery suits and
>glass helmets appear in the 1960s, sporting even oxygen
>backpacks, quite reminiscent of images from the 1960s space
>program and the 1969 moonwalk. Odd. But no grays with large,
>black, sinister almond-shaped, slanted eyes in 1947.

>Yet suddenly grays now infest the second Roswell book, The Truth
>About the
>Crash at Roswell.

There are no grays "infesting" the second book. I've said all
alone that they aren't the grays, that they have eyes larger
than human eyes but not the black orbs of the abduction
phenomenon or the grays. I have tried to make it clear that the
aliens described at Roswell DO NOT fit into the comfortable
categories of today. Which isn't saying there aren't those
attempting that. Jim Ragsdale's second tale comes to mind here.

>Quite clearly Schmitt and Randle, or their "witnesses," were now
>"modernizing" the Roswell story.

>Above all, ALL of Schmitt and Randle's witnesses offer no
>concrete evidence of any crash at Roswell. One would think that
>perhaps photographs of the crashed saucer, even photos of bits
>and pieces of metal strewn on the ground, would be in their
>possession. Perhaps, one photo would exist showing the military
>cordoning off the crash site. Nothing. Perhaps there would be
>documents, perhaps even one, demonstrating that something was
>trucked from Roswell, then to Fort Worth, then to
>Wright-Patterson--at least one document that was reliable. None.

There are at least two such documents, both of which are
discussed in the book. And then he overlooks the testimony, not
of low ranking people but of retired colonels and generals who
talk about this. Members of Colonel Blanchard's staff who should
have known and did know.

>And yet, proof exists of Project Mogul. Proof exists of certain
>Mogul launches. Odd. They rose on air currents north, toward
>Roswell. One vanished. Strange, could it have crashed near
>Roswell?

Yes, and where is the documentation of that recovery? The Mogul
balloons, with one exception were recovered or found. The June 4
launch, the culprit in this, seems to have gone up without the
rawin targets, and if there were no targets, then no balsa and
aluminum foil.

>Odd it was that Mac Brazel found balsa wood and dark-gray
>neo-prene material. Strange. There were markings on wood. The
>material looked like a flimsy weather balloon, or some type of
>balloon material.

Brazel didn't find balsa wood but something that looked like
balsa wood. When was the last time that balsa wood wouldn't burn
and couldn't be cut.

>But no, this was an advanced alien alloy. In fact, material was
>found that, when folded in the hand, miraculously folded back
>into its original shape!

>Incredible revelations! A balsa wood spaceship. Made, in part,
>of tissue paper. And, no photos of the debris field. No photos
>of military activity. No documents. But lots of "witnesses."

>In 1997, I sat in the audience of a "Town Hall" television show
>in Seattle. On the stage was Kal Korff and Kevin Randle to
>"debate" Roswell. Months earlier it was revealed by an
>enterprising reporter that Donald Schmitt, Randle's
>co-researcher, had lied publicly about his education and
>professional background. He wasn't formerly a police officer;
>nor did he have a college degree.

It was even worse than that. Schmitt claimed, contrary to the
articles that he didn't work at the post office when he did. He
said that he was in the witness protection program. He said that
he had to lie because he didn't want Deborah where he worked. He
told lots of lies to lots of people. And he told people he
believed I was a government agent. Of course the facts of his
employment and education made no difference. How many of us had
real jobs and don't have degrees? In and of itself, it means
nothing. But couple in the lies and it is devastating look at
Schmitt's personality.

>After the rambling discourse ended and the show was over, Kathy
>Andersen with MUFON, introduced me to Randle. She said, "This is
>Greg Long. He's writing a book on Kenneth Arnold." Randle's face
>instantly went hard and flat; a certain glare entered his eyes.
>He said nothing. His behavior was odd. I couldn't quite
>understand it. Was it because I had a brain?

Honestly, I don't remember that. However, maybe Mr. Long should
be told that I had flown in from LA, run into the hotel long
enough to change clothes and then driven to the studio. The cab
driver drove to the wrong station first. He wanted me to tell
him where it was, as if I was from Seattle. He finally found the
right one, late, and I ran right in, did the show with hardly a
chance to breath, and then I was surrounded with people shouting
all kinds of questions. I try to treat everyone fairly and
kindly if for no other reason to avoid these sorts of
misunderstandings.

>Randle had been invited to join MUFON members and others
>interested in the UFO subject to have a drink at a Seattle
>hotel. As it turned out, a small entourage followed Randle
>outside the studio. I was standing on the pavement near
>Andersen; she had driven me to the studio, and she was my ride
>back to her house where my car waited. She invited Randle to
>join her and me in her car--she'd drive him to the hotel. Randle
>shot a hard look at me, then at Andersen, and said, "No, thanks,
>I'll join the others." And he caught another ride.

There were all sorts of people offering rides. I was trying to
be polite. All I really wanted to do was go to the hotel for
some sleep because of an early morning flight. Besides, I
couldn't take all the rides that were offered. If I took the
wrong one, in Mr. Long's eyes, then I'm sorry. There should have
been nothing seen as sinister here.

>About a dozen people ended up at the hotel. Randle walked in. I
>asked Randle a number of challenging questions. Among his
>answers was that the material from a crashed UFO could be like
>"a black box," so advanced that we might never be able to
>understand it. I pictured in my mind the flimsy tissue paper,
>balsa wood, and blackened plastic material. Clearly, Randle
>should be investigating, not Roswell, but the government
>conspiracy to hide the truth of Roswell; to find that "black
>box." Yet, he didn't seem to be. I knew, in my mind, that he
>couldn't. Because there was no government conspiracy.

All I can say here is he should look at 'Conspiracy Of Silence'
which is an investigation of the cover-up. All we have to do is
prove that the Air Force lied just once, or that the Condon
Committee was a set up. Dr. Michael Swords found the letter from
the Air Force to Condon telling him what to find. Condon went
out and found it. Sounds like a conspiracy to me.

>Shortly, the subject of cattle mutilations came up; I asked
>Randle his opinion. He said, in effect, that farmers are ignorant
>people and that they are mistaking cattle that have died of
>natural causes for mysterious mutilations. He said something to
>the effect that farmers are stupid. I don't believe Randle has
>ever investigated a mutilated cow.

I said that farmers and ranchers aren't always schooled in the
pathology of death. They don't always understand how the
animal's body will decompose which is a far cry from calling
farmers stupid. I have great respect for farmers and ranchers
and have talked to many. But I have also talked to vets and
pathologists and I have a copy of the Rommel report written by a
former FBI agent who was commissioned by New Mexico to
investigate cattle mutilations (and dismissed by every one who
believes in cattle mutilations because it doesn't reinforce
those beliefs). I've even read 'Mute Evidence' by Summers and
Kagan. Why, I've even read Linda Howe's work. And I even look at
the situation again to see if the level of evidence has
improved, or if there is now something that leads to other
conclusions.

In fact, it probably should be mentioned that I was among the
very _first_ to investigate cattle mutilations in Iowa,
Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Missouri and Colorado. I talked
to farmers and ranchers and vets (including one in Wisconsin
named Jefferson Davis which I thought was funny because he
didn't come from the deep south. Oh crap, I've probably now
offended all the Southerns who believe the South will rise
again... Well, some of my family fought for the South, and I
lived in Texas so maybe it will be okay). I was asked by Jim
Lorenzen of APRO to investigate (1975) and published those
results in 1977 and in 1989. I have seen nothing to this point
to make me change my mind. I know that my position on cattle
mutilations is unpopular, but it is what the evidence suggests
to me.

>Yet, I did read somewhere that Randle has written over 20 books,
>if my memory serves me right, that have science fiction themes.

Your memory does not serve you. I have written nearly 100 books,
about 25 or so are science fiction. There are also action
adventure, techno-thrillers, a murder mystery and the like.
Apparently I am the only person in all of Ufology whose day job
disqualifies him from UFO research... though Whitley Strieber
has written horror novels including some of my favorites such as
'The Hunger' (made into a really disappointing movie).

>It dawned on me, "Greg, you are sitting in front of a science
>fiction writer. You need to get a list of those books. Who is
>Kevin Randle anyway?"

Mr. Long, actually you were sitting in front of a writer. There
is a difference. If you want a complete bibliography, I would be
delighted to send one to you. I have provided it to lots who
have asked for it. BTW, if anyone cares, the membership of
Science Fiction Writers of America is made up of people who have
published science fiction professionally. I mention this only
because about have the membership are scientists who hold
advanced degrees and are, for the most part working in science.
No one has suggested that we reject their work simply because
they enjoy science fiction.

>I thought back to an earlier meeting I had with Randle. It was
>in Portland during a book signing for The Truth of the Crash at
>Roswell. I approached him with a copy of the book and asked for
>his autograph. Clearly, from his blank expression, it was a bit
>of an imposition, I could tell. I asked him if he needed a copy
>of Project Moon Dust documents. Stan Gordon had just secured
>them on micofiche from the US State Department. I followed up
>with my own FOIA, and I had just finished hours and hours of
>printing them out at the local library. The mound of paper
>stands one foot high. In none have I found reference to crashed
>space ships, only crashed rocket boosters and satellites. Randle
>looked at me with his hard eyes: "That? Our contacts already
>have that." He swept away; a busy man with many things to do,
>many media appearances to make.

Lots of people offer lots of things. I already had the
microfiche from the State Department, which I FOIAed after Stan
Gordon told me what he had found and thought I should take a
look at them. Cliff Stone sent some of the documents available
on those microfiche. I didn't want to cause someone a lot of
work for something that I already had. Oh, and I'll try to smile
with my eyes more often.

>About 10 minutes later, as he and Schmitt were signing books,
>Schmitt and I struck up a conversation about balls of light. In
>fact, Schmitt was quite interested in my work and had read my
>book published by CUFOS. Randle interrupted our conversation:
>"Stop talking! We have to sign books, we have money to make!"

Utter nonsense. If you are going to quote me, at least make it
something that I said. If I interrupted you, then it was because
others were waiting, and had been waiting, to get their books
signed... books that they had bought elsewhere. Maybe I should
sell my autograph like others in this field have done. I won't
mention any names here but his initials are Don Schmitt. Well,
it was a round about way. He sold $20.00 books for $30.00 and
that included the autograph.

>I thought, Odd. Was this all just to make money?

Of course not. I would have written and told the Roswell story
even if there had been no money in it. Otherwise I wouldn't have
contributed work to CUFOS without pay or compensation. Otherwise
I wouldn't have spent so much of my own money trying to learn
the truth. When all else fails, say it was just for the money as
a way to discredit and belittle.

>Later, near July 4, 1997, I saw Randle on CNN. He was holding a
>box from the Testor Corporation that held a model plastic
>spaceship, I think designed from the "accounts" of what "crashed"
>at Roswell. I thought, He's a science fiction writer. He sells
>toys.

Testor's had just handed me the box when CNN stopped me on the
street outside of the Museum. What was I supposed to do? Toss it
away? Ignore the questions asked by the reporter? And I hope the
model makers in the crowd will point out the difference between
toys and models.

>A day later I read an article that described the actions of a
>woman who had traveled to the "actual" "crash scene" outside
>Roswell. She picked up the soil at the site and wept.

>And so Roswell has entered UFO history as the case that was to
>"break it wide open," to "expose the truth," etc., etc. And now
>it has come to two UFO museums in Roswell, T-shirts with gray
>alien heads, and desert dirt.

Well, I think there is only one Museum in Roswell at the moment.
Yes, it has become a cottege industry. But does that mean it
didn't happen? How many other towns have festivals and
celebrations of the events that happened near them? Are we going
to reject all of that because someone figured out a way to make
a buck? Are we going to ignore the historical significance of an
event because someone is in it for the money.

>A science fiction story? Yes, a compelling one. As I told Martin
>Belderson of Four Winds Productions when he was shooting the
>four-part UFO: Down to Earth series for Discovery, "It makes an
>interesting story." His eyes brightened, "Yes, yes! It makes a
>great story." Later, he proceeded to devastate the "story" in
>the Discovery series, bringing it all down to earth: a crashed
>Mogul balloon in the paranoid, fear-infested desert of early
>post-war America.

Yes, a Mogul balloon that was made of convention weather
balloons and radar reflectors that everyone failed to recognize.
Whatever Roswell was, it was not a balloon, unless everyone in
Roswell were struck dumb.

>Good bye, Roswell. Good-bye, Mr. Randle.

And good-by Mr. Long.

KRandle






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 14

               Re: Shaitan Mazar, Kirgizstan - The Real Story

From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:48:47 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:32:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Shaitan Mazar, Kirgizstan - The Real Story


>From: Anatoly Kutovoy <kutovoj@mail.iae.lt>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kirgizstan - The Real story
>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:46:56 +0200

>>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story
>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:24:42 -0500

>>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story
>>>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:38:44 PDT

>>>Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:20:28 -0400
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: UFO UpDate: C-E: Shaitan Mazar, Kazakhstan - The Real story

>>>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:59:57 +0200
>>>From: Anatoly Kutovoy <kutovoj@MAIL.IAE.LT>
>>>Subject: Shaitan Mazar. Real story.
>>>To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM


>Dear Brian,

>I have written once and only repeat now.
>Without reference to that is "old-fashioned sci-fi story" or
>"phantasy story", the crashed UFO is "on a place".

>If you have facility to order the satellite photographs, I
>(and others) will be glad for your help.

>I _had_ once requested these photos and my requests have
>gone unanswered.

>Why do you not wish to help us if you have the better chances
>for that??

Maybe we _could_ help if it wasn't for RUFORS not answering our
e-mail that requested more deatailed information on this
alledged UFO that just lays around in Russia somewhere for years
without anyone coming with more than a handwritten piece of
paper and a self-made sketch. If RUFORS wants help they would've
done something to come up with more evidence to support their
claims!

With Kind Regards,

Andy Denne
A.U.R.A.
The Netherlands
aura@telekabel2.nl
http://members.tripod.com/~A_U_R_A





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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 14

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:34:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:39:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:06:51 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

<snip>

With respect to you monster discussion/rebuttal on Roswell:
Bravo!





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 14

                   Re: UK TV Show Is Looking For UFO Info

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:33:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:35:26 -0400
Subject: Re: UK TV Show Is Looking For UFO Info


>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:04:37 +0000
>From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com>
>To: dclarke14@compuserve.com
>Subject: UK TV Show Is Looking For UFO Info

>They are willing to listen to information from around the world
>and not just the UK.

Gee, good for them!
They might find some here, if they bothered to look.





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 14

                  CSICOP's Response to TNT's KGB UFO Files

From: Geoff Dittman <gdittman@autobahn.mb.ca>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 17:43:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:23:28 -0400
Subject: CSICOP's Response to TNT's KGB UFO Files


Approved-By:  SkeptInq@AOL.COM
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:41:30 EDT
Reply-To: CSICOP Announcement <CSICOP-ANNOUNCE@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
Sender: CSICOP Announcement <CSICOP-ANNOUNCE@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
From: SkeptInq@aol.com
Subject:      Response to TNT's KGB UFO Files
To: CSICOP-ANNOUNCE@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

James Oberg, CSICOP fellow, science writer, space consultant for
ABC News and former NASA engineer provides his commentary on
last night's TNT special "SECRET KGB UFO FILES."

 Promotional background on the show can be found at

http://tnt.turner.com/kgb/frame_index.html"http://tnt.turner.com/kgb
/frame_index.html


**SEND VIEWER COMMENTS TO: TNT@TURNER.COM**

Viewers can submit and post reviews of the show on CSICOP's new Council for
Media Integrity webpage by going to

http://www.csicop.org/cmi/reviews/submit.html
http://www.csicop.org/cmi/reviews/submit.html


________________________________________________________________


James Oberg

 The TNT Special on "Secret KGB UFO Files" last night didn't
make reference to any of the classic space and missile
"pseudo-UFOs" for which Western ufologists still endorse the old
Soviet government cover-ups and camouflages about. So it wasn't
very related to "space activity".

 Except -- one sequence of scenes purporting to be "Declassified
Soviet top secret footage" of their rocket tests, which actually
showed NASA Space Shuttle SRB re-qualification test footage from
1987-8 (you can see the SRB in its horizontal test position
during the test firing). This misrepresentation seemed typical
of the rest of the show, which also kept promoting the 1908
Tunguska explosion as "the Russian Roswell" and presenting it as
an unsolved mystery. Also, twice some Russians described how
some recovered crashed UFO debris had been sent "to the base in
Mytishchi," indirectly referring to the organization now known
as the "Energiya Rocket and Space Corporation" (the small north
Moscow suburbs of Mytishchi and Podlipki became 'Kaliningrad,'
now the city of "Korolev"). If the nearly bankrupt Energiya
management had UFO samples available, their financial situation
would look a WHOLE lot different than it does now!

 Cautious skepticism are especially called for when you read the
"fine print" disclaimers.  At the beginning of the show a big
message flashed up: "What you are about to see may or may not be
true." And at the end, two screens full of warning messages were
even more to the point. One paragraph read: "The Producers
disclaim and do not guarantee the accuracy or truthfulness [of]
any of the documentation or materials that have been provided by
any source. . . . The materials and opinion presented on this
program including documents, film, photo, or video footage come
from the sources and are not the responsibility of the
Producers...This production is produced solely for entertainment
purposes only and no other use is authorized."

 They couldn't have been more explicit in their announcement
that the whole series of episodes about the recovery of a
crashed flying saucer in 1969 near Sverdlovsk, and a subsequent
autopsy (following which three of the four medical workers die
the same day from "cerebral hemorrhages") was a made-up story
with posed footage (as with the infamous Roswell autopsy, these
scenes involved motion picture film but never showed any still
photographers getting high-quality imagery), "hidden camera"
views of the purchase of top-secret confirmatory documents
($10,000 cash changing hands), and a string of sincere but
typical self-deluded Russian UFOlogists to vouch for the story.

 The American sources, with shaded faces and computer-altered
voices, were also amusing, especially a guy who claimed to have
gone to work for the CIA in 1989 "straight out of college" and
was immediately assigned to infiltrate the Russian UFO study
team. Sadder was the view of a sincere ex-NASA scientist named
Richard Haines who claimed he possessed "verified documents from
Stalin's time" that showed Soviet interest in the 1947 "Roswell
crashed saucer" -- alleged documents which he has never
published and which were not shown on this program.

 For entertainment purposes, including Roger Moore's narration,
this is a strong "B" production. For authenticity and
newsworthiness, the warning from the producers themselves should
be trusted, and it rates an "F".

 The following is an article by Oberg on Soviet UFO
investigations from OMNI
magazine, April 1994.

________________________________________________________________


Soviet Saucers (April 1994)
By James Oberg

 Day after day, the waves of UFOs returned to southern Russia.
Cossacks on horseback saw them high in the evening sky. Pilots
aboard commercial airliners and military interceptors chased and
dodged them. Astronomers at observatories in the Caucasus
Mountains noted their crescent shape and their fiery companions.

 It was the fall of 1967, and the Soviet Union was in the grip
of its first major UFO flap. The extraordinary tales, described
on Soviet television, reported in Soviet newspapers, and
analyzed in a private nationwide UFO study group soon took on a
life of their own.

 In one detailed account, an airliner crew from Voroshilovgrad
to Volgograd, flight 104, insisted that a UFO had hovered and
then maneuvered around their plane. According to Soviet UFO
enthusiast Felix Zigel, who compiled such accounts, the plane's
engines died and did not start up again until after the UFO had
disappeared, when the aircraft was only a half mile high in the
air.

 These tales and others were repeated in Western UFO books and
presented as important evidence at UFO hearings in the United
States Congress and in Britain's House of Lords. Then, as
suddenly as it had started, the wave of Russian UFO sightings
ceased. Private UFO groups were banned by the Soviet government,
and the subject was dropped from the controlled media even as it
spread wildly in the samizdat, the underground Russian press.

 But the phenomenon was not forgotten. Years later, astronomer
Lev Gindilis and a team of investigators from the Academy of
Sciences in Moscow assessed Zigel's UFO files, analyzing
statistics from what they said was "the repetitive motion" of
the objects Zigel described. In 1979, the "Gindilis Report" was
released and distributed around the world. It concluded that no
known natural or manmade stimulus could account for these
"anomalous atmospheric phenomena." Something truly extraordinary
and truly alien must have occurred.

 But it was too good to be true. Like many other official Soviet
government reports, the Gindilis Report turned out to be
counterfeit science. In effect, and probably in intent, it
served to cover up one of Moscow's greatest military secrets, an
illegal space-to-earth nuclear weapon.

 What the witnesses really saw back in those exciting days in
1967 were space vehicles all right, but not from some distant,
alien world. They were Russian missile warheads, placed in low
orbit under false registration names and then diverted back
toward the planet's surface after one circuit of the globe. As
they fireballed down toward a target zone near the lower Volga
River, they seared their way into the imaginations of startled
witnesses for hundreds of miles in all directions.

 Of course, U.S. intelligence agencies had also been watching
the tests, and they weren't fooled by the UFO smokescreen.
Pentagon experts soon dubbed this fearsome new weapon a
"fractional orbit bombardment system," or FOBS. Government
spokespeople in Washington denounced it as a first-strike weapon
designed to evade defensive radars. Since Moscow had recently
signed a solemn international treaty forbidding the orbiting of
nuclear weapons, the existence of this weapon (whose tests alone
did not violate the treaty) was a glaring advertisement of
contempt. So when Russian UFO witnesses concluded that they had
been seeing alien spaceships instead of treaty-busting weapons
tests, Soviet military officials were all too willing to permit
this illusion to prosper.

 Twenty-five years later, with the FOBS rockets long since
scrapped and the Soviet regime itself on the scrap heap of
history, the now-purposeless deception has maintained a
zombielike life of its own. Russian UFO literature continues to
issue ever more glorious accounts of the 1967 "crescent
spaceships." Mainstream Russian magazines, newspapers, and even
museum exhibits contain fanciful drawings of such shapes. Zigel
himself is revered as "the father of Soviet UFOlogy," an icon of
reliability and authenticity.

 But Zigel's and Gindilis's crescent craft are just one example
of the ridiculous notions and outrageous fictions Russian
UFOlogy has spawned. In 1977, for instance, Tass, the official
Russian news agency, carried a dispatch from the northwest
Russian port city of Petrozavodsk titled "Strange Natural
Phenomenon over Karelia." Wrote local correspondent Nikolay
Milov, "On September 20 at about 0400 a huge star suddenly
flared up in the dark sky, impulsively sending shafts of light
to the earth. This star moved slowly toward Petrozavodsk and,
spreading out over it in the form of a jellyfish, hung there,
showering the city with a multitude of very fine rays which
created an image of pouring rain."

 The "visitation" unleashed a torrent of rumors. People later
reported being awakened from deep sleep by telepathic messages.
Tiny holes were reportedly seen in windows and paving stones.
Cars were said to have stalled and computers to have crashed,
and witnesses smelled ozone.

 Soviet UFO enthusiasts rushed to embrace the case. "As far as I
am concerned," claimed science-fiction author Aleksandr
Kazantsev, "it was a spaceship from outer space, carrying out
reconnaissance." According to Dr. Vladimir Azhazha, "In my
opinion, what was seen over Petrozavodsk was either a UFO, a
carrier of high intelligence with crew and passengers, or it was
a field of energy created by such a UFO." Zigel, the dean of
Soviet UFOlogists, agreed it was a true UFO: "Without a
doubt--it had all the features."

 Sadly, the cause of all this mindless panic was a routine
rocket launching from the supersecret military space center at
Plesetsk in northwest Russia. The multiengined booster's
contrails, backlit by the dawn sun, seemed to split into
multiple glowing tentacles.

 In 1981, a midnight rocket launch from Plesetsk lit up the
skies of Moscow itself and sent the capital city's residents
into a blitz of unconstrained creativity. UFO expert Sergey
Bozhich's notebooks contain reports of numerous "independent"
UFO encounters during this ordinary launching. "Pilots of six
civil aircraft reported either a UFO in flight or a UFO
[attacking] their aircraft," he wrote. "At 1:30 a UFO attacked a
truck along the Ryazan Avenue in Moscow." One witness even
reported waking from a deep sleep to see a "scout ship" with a
glass cupola and small alien pilot cruising down his street.

 The pattern is clear. Time and again, secret launchings of
Russian rockets have unleashed avalanches of classic UFO
perceptions from the imaginative, excitable witnesses and their
careless interviewers. And consistent with its origins, Russian
UFO literature is still characterized by fantastic tales and an
utter lack of research into possible explanations. "I have no
doubts" is the most common figure of speech in the lexicon of
Russian UFOlogists, and they are doubtlessly sincere, if
arguably deluded. "Are UFOs real?" one was asked not long ago by
American documentary filmmaker Bryan Gresh. "My colleagues and I
don't even think that's a question," he responded. "Of course
they are real!"

 This sort of quasi-religious fervor just helps to fuel the
skepticism of the cautious observer. After all, if Russian
UFOlogists cannot or will not recognize the prosaic stimulus
behind these phony crescent UFOs of 1967 and the UFO "jellyfish"
of 1977, they may be incapable of solving any of the other
hundreds of ordinary (if rare) causes that account for at least
90 percent (if not 100 percent) of all UFO perceptions. Dozens
of major stimuli, and hundreds of minor ones, are constantly
giving rise to counterfeit UFO perceptions around the world.
Filtering out the residue of true UFOs from the pseudo UFOs
poses enormous challenges for investigators. Most Russian
UFOlogists appear unwilling to face this challenge.

 And the writings of prominent Russian UFO experts give ample
ground for more anxiety. Vladimir Azhazha, probably the leading
Russian UFO expert  of the 1990s, is an undeniable enthusiast of
UFO miracle stories. Some years ago, his favorite Western UFO
story involved a UFO attack on the Apollo 13 space capsule,
which he "disclosed" was carrying a secret atomic bomb to create
seismic waves on the moon.

 But it was carrying no such thing. The April 1970 explosion,
which disabled the craft and threatened the lives of the three
astronauts, was caused by a hardware malfunction. When
challenged recently by UFOlogist Antonio Huneeus, Azhazha made a
candid admission: "When I gave the lecture, I was a teenager in
UFOlogy and was intoxicated by the E.T. hypothesis and did not
recognize anything else. I would retell with pleasure everything
I read."

 Supposedly reformed, Azhazha then published a new book with a
glorious new Apollo-astronaut UFO story based this time on
forged photographs published in American tabloid newspapers. The
pictures show contrast-enhanced fuzzballs, photographic images
that had been sharpened in the photo lab. A fabricated "radio
conversation" in which the astronauts exclaim surprise at seeing
alien spaceships in a crater near their landing site later
appeared in another tabloid; it was patently bogus, too, based
on grossly misused space jargon. The story was long ago
abandoned by reputable Western UFOlogists, but Azhazha still
loves it and presents it as true.

 At a UFO conference in Albuquerque in 1992, Azhazha told
astonished Western colleagues that he had proof that 5,000
Russians had been abducted by UFOs and never returned to Earth.
When asked to defend this number, he disclosed that he took the
reported number of ordinary "missing persons" in the entire
Soviet Union, plotted the regions over which major UFO activity
had been reported, and then allocated those population
proportions of "missing" to the UFOs. It was simple, sincere,
and senseless, but the embarrassed American hosts (who had paid
his travel expenses) couldn't disagree too publicly lest their
waste of money be obvious.

 Russian UFOlogists claim to be careful. Azhazha himself has
written: "Nothing on faith! One must check, check, and eleven
times check in order to find an error!" But he doesn't seem to
know how, and neither do any of his colleagues. While their
sincerity and enthusiasm are not in doubt, their judgment,
balance, and accuracy should be.

 Why are people like Azhazha the best that Russia can offer?
Russians are heirs to a great, creative civilization, but they
are also emerging from a social era that has had profound
effects on their habits of thought. Today's Russians have lived
in a reality-deprived and judgment-atrophied culture for
generations. Once they were sufficiently brain benumbed by a
repressive communist regime to accept any and all propagandistic
idiocies fed to them, they were intellectually defenseless
against infections of other brain bunk as well.

 UFO enthusiasm prospers in this nurturing environment. And it's
not just UFO sightings that get conjured up by this fuzzy
thinking. Historical figures, preferably dead ones who cannot
disagree, are now constantly being portrayed as "secret UFO
believers."

 For example, in 1993, a slick new UFO magazine called AURA-Z
appeared in Moscow. Continuing the trend of tying now-dead space
heroes to UFO studies, the magazine featured two separate
interviews with contemporary experts concerning the role played
by Sergey Korolev, the founder of the Soviet missile and space
programs. It didn't bother the magazine at all that the two
stories were utterly inconsistent.

 In one article, rocket expert Valery Burdakov presented a
detailed account of how back in 1947 Stalin had ordered Korolev
to assess Soviet intelligence reports on the Roswell, New
Mexico, UFO crash. Korolev had reported back that the UFOs were
real but not dangerous, the article "revealed." Yet just seven
pages earlier, another expert named Lev Chulkov had written: "As
early as the beginning of the 1950s, Stalin ordered Korolev to
study the phenomenon of UFOs, but Korolev managed to avoid
fulfilling this task." Of course, both claims can't be true.
Besides, Korolev was a recently rehabilitated political prisoner
in 1947 and was thus hardly the type of trusted expert that
Stalin would have consulted.

 Behind all such distracting noise, the UFO problem remains a
fascinating and elusive puzzle, worthy of serious research. But
weeding out true UFOs from the overwhelming mass of "IFOs," or
identified flying objects, is a difficult, time-consuming task,
as Western UFOlogists have learned in the past half century.
Their new Russian colleagues so far show no indication that they
have even begun.

 "I haven't seen too much effort at that job," admits Antonio
Huneeus, one of the West's most perceptive pro-UFO observers of
Russian UFOlogy. "The Russians themselves keep knocking on my
door," Huneeus states. "They want to sell their stuff here." In
fact, given today's economic crisis in Russia, thousands of
people of all classes, but particularly from the military
services, are desperately seeking--or deliberately
creating--anything they can sell to Western buyers with bucks.
UFO files are one of the few exportable raw materials with a
market in the West, so there should be no surprise that there
are suddenly so many bizarre items now available and so few
Russians willing to be cautious or critical about them.

 If these Russian UFO delusions only affected their own
research, the silliness would do no worldwide harm. But the
intellectual infection has spread far beyond borders and
polluted UFO studies in other countries as well. These new
commercial conspiracies between Russian tall-tale sellers and
Western tall-tale tellers in the entertainment and
pseudodocumentary industry will make it much worse.

 The more serious Western UFOlogists, for instance, are
particularly embarrassed by their colleagues' naive, unbounded
enthusiasm for the 1967 "crescents" and the subsequent so-called
Gindilis Report, with Soviet thermonuclear weapons tests
masquerading as true UFOs. Dr. James McDonald, probably
America's top UFO expert of the 1960s, testified that the
crescents "cannot be readily explained in any conventional
terms." Dr. J. Allen Hynek, dean of American UFOlogy in the
1970s, reviewed the sightings and crowed, "It becomes very much
harder--in fact, from my personal viewpoint, impossible--to find
a trivial solution for all the UFO reports if one weighs and
considers the caliber of some of the witnesses." They were
scientists, pilots, engineers, and fellow astronomers, and Hynek
was absolutely certain they couldn't have been mistaken.

 Today's successor to McDonald and Hynek is retired space
scientist Richard Haines, American director of the joint United
States-Commonwealth of Independent States working group on UFOs,
the Aerial Anomaly Federation. Concerning the 1967 sightings, he
confidently wrote that "the reports represent currently unknown
phenomena, being completely different in nature from known
atmospheric optics effects or technical experiments in the
atmosphere."

 Another famous Russian pseudo-UFO case, called the "Cape
Kamenny UFO," has long been foolishly championed by Western UFO
experts. Top American UFOlogist Jacques Vallee cited this
encounter in a 1992 book as one of the best in the world. His
casebook coding scheme gave it the highest marks: "Firsthand
personal interview with the witness by a source of proven
reliability; site visited by a skilled analyst; and no
explanation possible, given the evidence."

 A graphic account of this UFO was given by American UFOlogist
William L. Moore based on casebooks compiled by Zigel. "On
December 3, [1967] at 3:04 p.m.," wrote Moore, "several crewmen
and passengers of an IL-18 aircraft on a test flight for the
State Scientific Institute of Civil Aviation sighted an
intensely bright object approaching them in the night sky."
Moore reported that the object "followed" the evasive turns of
the aircraft.

 But years later I discovered that the aircraft, passing near
Vorkuta in the northern Urals, had by chance been crossing the
flight path of the Kosmos-194 spy satellite during its ascent
from Plesetsk. The crew had unwittingly observed the rocket's
plumes and the separation of its strap-on boosters. All other
details of maneuvers were added in by their imaginations. Yet
this bogus UFO story is highlighted as authentic by nearly every
Western account of Russian UFOs in the last 20 years.

 Of course, not all Russian UFO reports spring from missile and
space events. Far from it! But those specific kinds of stimuli
are extremely well documented, unlike other traditional
pseudo-UFO stimuli such as balloons, experimental aircraft,
military and police helicopters, bolide fireballs, and so forth.
Thus, they can provide an unmatchable calibration test for the
ability of Russian UFOlogists to find solutions for these pseudo
UFOs.

 The Russian UFOlogists have failed. The ultimate test of the
Russians' ability to perform mature, reliable UFO research is
how they treat "the smoking gun" of Russian UFOlogy, the
Petrozavodsk "jellyfish" UFO of 1977. The "jellyfish" was a
brief wonder in the West before being quickly solved (by me) as
the launch of a rocket from Plesetsk. Western UFOlogists readily
accepted the explanation, but now it turns out that Russian UFO
experts never did. They have assembled a vast array of miracle
stories associated with the event, including reports of
telepathic messages and physical damage to the earth.

 But all this proves is that ordinary Russians love to embellish
stories and that Russian UFO researchers haven't a clue on how
to filter out such exaggerations from original perceptions. If
they cannot do it for such obviously bogus UFOs as Petrozavodsk,
how can they be expected to do it for less clear-cut ones?

 If the UFO mystery is to be solved, there is adequate data from
the rest of the world outside of Russia. Serious UFOlogists will
have to quarantine the obviously hopelessly infected UFO lore
from Russia and disregard it all. Some valuable data might be
lost, but the crippling effect of unconstrained crackpottery
would be avoided. Every decade or two, the question can be
reconsidered with a simple test: Do leading Russian UFOlogists
still insist on the alien nature of the 1967 crescent UFOs and
the 1977 "jellyfish" UFO? If so, slam the door on them again.

 Yet the temptation may be too great, especially for those who
are into what I call the "fairy tale mode" of modern UFO
study--those who believe the best cases are ones that happened
long ago and far away, and thus are forever immune from prosaic
solution. Russian UFO stories have turned out to be exactly
those kinds of fairy tales.

 And if the purpose of modern UFOlogy is only mystery worship
and obfuscation, only mind-boggling tall tales and
mind-stretching theorizing, then it will continue to feed on the
baseless bilge coming out of Russia while being insidiously and
unavoidably poisoned by it. The reality test, then, is not of
Russian UFOlogy, which has already failed, but of non-Russian
UFOlogy, where the issue remains in doubt.


 Editor's note: James Oberg, author of RED STAR IN ORBIT and
many other books, is an internationally recognized expert on the
Soviet space program.








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   Sep > Sep 14

                  Re: Jaime Maussan British T.V. Interview

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:33:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:38:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Jaime Maussan British T.V. Interview


>From: Ian J. Darlington <webmaster@interweb-design.co.uk>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Jaime Maussan British T.V. Interview
>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 14:34:08 +0100


<snip>

>However, one important clip was the Mexico City daylight footage
>which was shown on British T.V. - to my knowledge - for the
>first time today. The interesting point here is there was no
>fanfare, no pre-advertising of the segment with Jaime Maussan -
>no nothing. It was just slipped in amongst the other footage.>

>Although this is now disputed as a possible fake, Jaime claimed
>quite openly that he is skeptical in general and admitted, I
>believe, that the footage could be a fake, but is still baffled
>why he has such seemingly honest witnesses.

See  www.sightings.com and look down the list of HEADLINES for
"Dr. Bruce Maccabee's Graphic Analysis of Mexico City UFO
Video".







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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:26:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:23:51 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:43:35 -0700 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Soviet UFO Crash - TNT KGB files (fwd)

>Hi everyone,

>I was one of the people who does not get Ted Turner's TNT on
>cable so I missed seeing the UFO Special on Sunday.

>Tony from CSETI was kind enough to inform me about a few images
>from this UFO special that are now on the CSETI web page.  Is
>this something that was staged by the Russians to get some much
>needed foreign cash or has Ted Turner succeeded with his
>chequebook journalism in finally getting proof on the E.T.
>origins of UFOs?  Check the web site below and see for yourself.
>I have been busy this morning with many here at York University
>who want copies of the CSETI report I have posted on my bulletin
>board.

>Nick Balaskas

I'm glad CSETI posted stills from the alleged Soviet footage,
since I wasn't able to watch the show. (I'll catch it Wednesday
night when it's rebroadcast here.)

But the CSETI crash page is monumentally irresponsible. They
start with sententious prose about friendly aliens visiting us,
threatened by our hostile attacks on them.

Then they list around 200 events, starting in ancient times and
continuing right up to this year. You can click on each event to
find out what it's about. I did that, and found...well, the
words "unsubstantiated garbage" come to mind, but maybe I'm
reacting more to CSETI's presentation than to the stuff itself.
Some of the recent entries are nothing more than e-mail from
people, saying, in effect, "um, I think a UFO might have crashed
near here Tuesday night, but I'm not sure."

That some of these events might have been meteorites is a
reasonable supposition, especially when we run into the recent
California event, which (if I'm right in remembering a thread
here) really was that. And in any case, none of the accounts I
found there had been investigated. There's no way of knowing
from the CSETI site whether _anything_ really happened.

I'm sure many of the e-mailers are fine people, honestly
reporting some shred of something. Likewise, I'm sure that --
just for example -- Eduardo Russo, cited as the source for some
centuries-old Italian alleged happenings, isn't claiming the
events really happened. In fact, he seems to be saying, in the
fragment they quote from him, that there's no reason to believe
there's any truth to the accounts.

So, again, I'm not blaming the people who were sources for many
of these 200 stories. But I strongly fault CSETI for untruth in
advertising, writing a heading that states with absolute
certainty that something is going on, and then listing 200
examples, giving a strong impression that there are 200 solid
cases of ET crashes. Then, when you read the cases, there's
almost nothing there.

Disgusting.

Greg Sandow






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                          Re: Brown Mountain Lights

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 17:01:38 PDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:10:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Brown Mountain Lights


>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:07:35 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Brown Mountain Lights

>From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@foto.infi.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brown Mountain Lights
>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:32:35 -0400

>>Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 04:46:43 -0400
>>From: Doc Landry <landryp1@home.com>
>>Organization: Forensic Pathology/Criminology
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: re- Brouwn Mountain Lights

>>Hello everyone:

>>I would like to thank everyone for their help with the Brown
>>Mountain lights. I really like that song. I will let you know
>>what I find as I hopefully will be heading down there in a few
>>weeks. Again thanks all;-)

>>Doc (Diane)

>>--
>>Diane Landry

>Doc, I am doing a little piece on the Brown Mountain Lights for
>next week's issue. Not that much material though. The main story
>is on Orbs. If you come across some additional info.. please
>forward along my way.

>Thanks.

>Stefan Duncan
Doc, Stefan & List,

Unaccustomed as I am to being a Devil's Advocate ;-]   I would
like to offer this as a point for consideration:-

We know that there are seaborne algae that glow in the dark when
agitated by boats and waves, etc.  I think that it is a
possibility that these nocturnal glowings could possibly be from
owls or other nocturnals that perhaps have become the abodes of
an avian-borne version of a similar thing. Perhaps the air
rushing around the body of an owl in flight agitates an organism
to give off a glow, and, this may in turn assist an owl in
finding more prey at night. A symbiotics development, perhaps,
localised to specific areas?

This could certainly explain the 'bobbing' in flight motion of
the glowing 'orbs' and their swiftness through the tree tops.

Regards,

Leanne Martin

Compueter Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia





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   Sep > Sep 14

                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Doc Barry <authority@webtv.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:10:09 -0700 (MST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:27:35 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show

Because of many requests, those who missed the TNT Network ninety minute
Documentary, "The Secret KGB UFO Files", mark your calendar for encore
showings on:

TNT Cable Network
Wednesday Sept. 16th Midnight (ET/PT)
Tuesday Sept. 22nd at Midnight (ET/PT)

To catch a peek at the promo with some photos go to:
http://tnt.turner.com/kgb

== Doc

~~~~~Get BREAKING news plus UFO/ET news - NOW - click on "What's Up
Doc?" www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518






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                           Re: UFO Video Technique

From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:48:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:19:30 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Video Technique


>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:09:06 +0100
>Re: UFO Video Technique

>>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:51:47 -0500
>>From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: UFO Video Technique

><snip>

>>I hope you'll take nice 'shots'.

>>Best regards

>>Alex Franz alcione.org

>Hi List,

>I've been looking through the "JohnBro" images, and I just want
>to give some short comments to these.


Hi Asgeir, here is a nice chance IMHO to review the basics for
an image managing process. As you can see the compromise to
accept as a real UFO any object 'filmed', 'videotaped' or
'photographed' is a delicate matter. With some programs and help
of technical advisors with knowledge in photography, video
recording, filming and image manipulation, including experienced
investigators and qualified researchers, that we can count on in
this list, you may surely get if not an exact image definition a
defined demonstrable difference between a caterpillar bug from a
cylindrical, oval or craft shaped object.

The numerous methodologies are not always possible due to
conflicting priorities and available resources. It is necessary
to mention that some resources that belong to commercial use as
image processors or drawing PC software are wrongly taken
sometimes as primary tools to develop certain subjective
approach against a conclusive, scientific, skilled and
demonstrable analysis result. For this scientific image
recognition analysis purposes we must have enough ORIGINAL
material availability, integrity of researchers, PC software
accuracy, and self confidence that what we are looking for is
the TRUTH and not simply what we naively want.

>My opinion is that most of these images - due to the fuzzy
>outlines and the changing object sizes and shapes - carries
much >resemblance to huge swarms of insects (bees, wasps,
>grasshoppers, butterflies etc.). >

Please check this JPG file that was provided by Mrs. Elena
Potter from CSETI, she is collaborating with us in ALCIONE and
she captured this nice image, Mrs.Potter is an honorable lady,
she took the picture and send it to me the 13th of september.
Image size is 48k and may take time to download.Sorry.

Mrs. Potter video capture at:

http://www.alcione.org/potersep.jpg

>That is, the objects appearing in these images could very well
>be explained by a natural phenomenon.

>Any resemblance to metallic object surfaces could be explained
>by the sun's reflections, from the rapid movement of the
>reflective wings of most of these insects.

Here we must take a picture of a known insect against the
sunlight, after that make the comparison with the other. But,
this must be done in a same time of day, angle, atmospheric
conditions, like air pollutants, visibility obstructions like
fog, smog or haze, air density, ambient temperature, time of the
day, same camera, tape or film brand. In the case that you tell
we must also know what specific insect we are talking about.
IMHO if an insect hasn't been recognized falls in the case of
'unidentified flying object' or UFO. You can't say it is a bug
neither a bird, cloud, grass, ash, paper, whatever you meant or
imagine. We only can GUESS.

>I guess that many of the UFO experiences (i.e., sightings and
>photos) from throughout the world could be explained by this
>"insect phenomenon".

You are completely right, it is known that a high percentage of
supposed UFO's were mistakenly recognized as the real "thing" I
dare to say that almost a 90% of sightings is not a real UFO.

>Some other possible explanations could be: (runaway/damaged?)
>kites or (weather)
>balloons.

There are many other possible explanations, I agree with you
Asgeir.

Comments and critics are welcome.

Best regards to you and all.

Alex Franz
alcione.org





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   Sep > Sep 15

                    CNN's John Holliman Dies In Car Crash

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:12:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:12:11 -0400
Subject: CNN's John Holliman Dies In Car Crash

Source: jeff Rense's SIGHTINGS

http://www.sightings.com/ufo/holiman.htm


CNN's John Holliman Dies In Car Crash
9-11-98


ATLANTA (CNN) -- CNN national assignment reporter John Holliman
died early Saturday morning from injuries sustained in a car
accident. He was 49.

Holliman joined CNN in 1980 as part of the network's original
reporting team and was the first correspondent hired for the
Washington, D.C., bureau.

He was one of only three journalists reporting from Baghdad in
January 1991 when the allied air attack began on Iraq's capital
during the Gulf War. He and colleagues Peter Arnett and Bernard
Shaw played critical roles in CNN's coverage of the crisis,
which won a National Headliner Award, the George Foster Peabody
Award and a Golden Microphone Award.


Holliman also served as the network's lead reporter for the
Pathfinder mission to Mars in summer 1997.


In June 1989, Holliman covered China's historic student
demonstrations and the subsequent government crackdown and
Chinese Communist Party purge. That fall, he served as CNN's
on-site reporter during Hurricane Hugo.


During his 18-year tenure at CNN, Holliman also had covered
agriculture and the White House and had served as chief daytime
Washington, D.C., anchor.

Before joining CNN, Holliman was an agriculture editor at The
Associated Press Radio Network where he worked from 1974 until
1980. In that position, he covered all aspects of agricultural
and food-related news of interest to farmers and consumers. He
also wrote a daily column for AP's broadcast wire as well as
farm stories for AP's national newspaper wire. In addition, he
taught a course at the graduate school of the U.S. Department of
Agriculture in Atlanta.

Holliman's journalistic career included stints as a newscaster
and reporter for Metromedia Radio News and WASH-FM in
Washington, D.C. Holliman also worked at a number of radio
stations, including WSB-AM/FM in Atlanta and WGAU-Radio and
WRFC-Radio in Athens, Georgia.

Holliman received a 1976 Peabody Award for his documentary, "The
Garden Plot -- Food as a Weapon in International Diplomacy." He
received a bachelor's degree in journalism from the University
of Georgia.






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                           Re: UFO Video Technique

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:16:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:26:05 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Video Technique


>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:51:47 -0500
>From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO Video Technique

>"JohnBro" (johnbro@earthlink.net) was recently on the television
>show SIGHTINGS which aired a segment entitled "Solar
>Obliteration". Though Sightings was skeptical, when they went
>out to John's home in Reseda, California and tried this
t>echnique themselves, and got the same images, they knew that
>t.his was not a joke. They spent well into the thousands of
>dollars getting these images analyzed, by sending them to
>Village Labs in Phoenix, Az. They couldn't put a positive
>identity on them, but they could say this:

>  1.They were a great distance from the camera
>  2.They are traveling at a high velocity
>  3.They are structured craft


Before this conclusion is caste in concrete someone should do
STEREO filming... two cameras several feet apart and
bporesighted such that the lens axes are parallel or close to
it. Parallax will tell whether there are large objects far
away or light reflection from strands of spider web or dust
particles in the air or bugs or......whatever.






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   Sep > Sep 15

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:40:14 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:20:37 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:27:58 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 11:19:16 -0700
>>From: Greg Long <greglong@PACIFICHARBOR.COM>
>>Subject: Death of Roswell
>>To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

>>If you recall, the Ed Walters lie was to be such a case, at
>>least, photographically. It, too, entered the trash heap of
>>history as just another hoax.

I wonder if our resident optical physicist Dr. Maccabee would
agree with that last statement. After all, he analyzed the pictures
and videos. What are Mr. Longs' credentials for analyzing
photographs, that he dismisses Ed Walter's photos so easily?

>>Randle's face instantly went hard and flat; a certain glare
>>entered his eyes.

>>Randle shot a hard look at me,

>>Clearly, from his blank expression, it was a bit
>>of an imposition, I could tell.

>>Randle looked at me with his hard eyes

This is absurd. Mr. Long apparently needs no other form
of communication than facial expressions to guage the
thoughts of others. If one is running around making a
nuisance of one's self, one is likely to encounter less
than friendly expressions anyway. It's self perpetuating.

I suppose Mr. Long knows Ed Walters' photos are fake
because he saw Ed's face once.

Greg






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   Sep > Sep 15

                       Jeff Rense's Show Pulls Numbers

From: Skye Turell <turel33@west.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:30:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:16:20 -0400
Subject: Jeff Rense's Show Pulls Numbers


Not only is Jeff a great guy, but his track record is showing that
good guys can indeed finish first.


Ratings Dynamite

Jeff continues to draw dominant ratings numbers for his
affiliates. Two current examples from the new Spring 1998
Arbitron Ratings Sweeps: KYSG-FM 103.7 in Little Rock (100,000
watts) is now #1 with Jeff in his evening time block with age
group ratings as high as a 17 market Share; and Jeff has taken
KQSB 990 AM in Santa Barbara, in only one full Arbitron
ratings period, to an overall #1 in the prime time evening
7-12 midnight time block with a 20 Share in a market of 13
stations.


KOTK AM Portland, OR

"Astounding information! We get as many calls as our number
one show, Don Imus. We have deliberately selected shows that
shy away from 'discussion' of the issues of the day (yawn) and
look for shows that are 'in your face.' You consistently amaze
me how night after night you can present such dramatic
revelations. Thanks for making our nights every bit as
provocative and controversial as our daytime programming."
Bruce Agler, Program Director


KRKO AM Seattle-Everett, WA

"Tell the Program Directors you speak with to grab their
listeners and give them what they want: Jeff Rense! This is
the ONLY program available from 10 PM to 1 AM Eastern that
counter programs everything on the air. The content is fresh,
entertaining, and sometimes unbelievable. In the same genre as
Orson Welles' 'War Of The Worlds,' and our listeners are
captivated by the story-telling." Andy Scotdal, President S-R
Broadcasting


KSYG FM Little Rock, AR

Sightings with Jeff Rense is one of the most fascinating and
informative talks show to hit the airwaves. It's a real
audience builder! B. Jay Kaplan, Program Director



 KQSB AM Santa Barbara, CA

"A great show! No other program even comes close to providing
listeners with such thought-provoking subject matter!" Our
station began airing Jeff's show the same week we added Rush
Limbaugh and we asked listeners to call our station with
feedback on our programming moves. We received an equal number
of positive calls for both programs and we continue to receive
calls daily from people who have made Jeff a part of their
regular night time listening. Even though Jeff joined our
line-up one month late into Fall 1997 Arbitron book, he nearly
doubled the audience Share from 2.9 to 5.3." Jim Watkins,
Program Director


KTKK AM Salt Lake City, UT

"This guy is great! Jeff Rense is a refreshing, invigorating
talent who covers ALL the bases that any great national show
could. Amazing content. Our listeners are demanding more!"
Scott Lindsley, Executive Producer


KCOL AM Ft. Collins, CO

"We love this show! Our Arbitron numbers are way up with the
addition of Jeff's show to our evening line-up! We are really
happy with how he has begun to deliver the 18-49 audience
which is where I want to take our station." Scott James,
General Manager


Arbitron 20 SHARE
Prime Time Ratings Dynamite!

Jeff continues to draw dominant Arbitron ratings numbers for
his affiliates. Two current examples from the new Spring 1998
Arbitron Ratings: KSYG-FM 103.7 (100,000 watts) in Little Rock
is now #1 in its market with Jeff pulling as high as a 17
Share; and Jeff has led KTMS AM 990 in Santa Barbara, in only
one full Arbitron book, to an overall #1 in the evening prime
time 7-12 midnight time block with a 20 SHARE in a market of
13 stations. (see more below)


KOTK 1080 AM Portland, OR

"Astounding information! We get as many calls as our number
one show, Don Imus. We have deliberately selected shows that
shy away from 'discussion' of the issues of the day (yawn) and
look for shows that are 'in your face.' You consistently amaze
me how night after night you can present such dramatic
revelations. Thanks for making our nights every bit as
provocative and controversial as our daytime programming."
--Bruce Agler, Program Director


KRKO 1380 AM Seattle-Everett, WA

"Tell the Program Directors you speak with to grab their
listeners and give them what they want: Jeff Rense! This is
the ONLY program available from 10 PM to 1 AM Eastern that
counter programs everything on the air. The content is fresh,
entertaining, and sometimes unbelievable. In the same genre as
Orson Welles' 'War Of The Worlds,' and our listeners are
captivated by the story-telling." --Andy Scotdal, President
S-R Broadcasting


KSYG 103.7 FM Little Rock, AR

"Sightings with Jeff Rense is one of the most fascinating and
informative talks show to ever hit the airwaves. With Jeff, we
are now number one in evening prime time with a 17 Share. He's
a real audience builder!" --B. Jay Kaplan, Program Director.
"Jeff Rense has the most unique program in radio, there is
nothing else like it. " --Hal Smith, General Manager


KTKK 630 AM Salt Lake City, UT

"This guy is great! Jeff Rense is a refreshing, invigorating
talent who covers ALL the bases that any great national show
could. Amazing content. Our listeners are demanding more!"
--Scott Lindsley, Executive Producer


KCOL 1410 AM Ft. Collins, CO

"We love this show! Our Arbitron numbers are way up with the
addition of Jeff's show to our evening line-up! We are really
happy with how he has begun to deliver the 18-49 audience
which is where I want to take our station." --Scott James,
General Manager


KTMS 990 AM Santa Barbara, CA

"A great show! Jeff Rense has taken us to the number one
evening position in our market. He scored a stunning Spring
1998 Arbitron 20 Share for Persons 25-54 in his prime time
evening time period. No other program even comes close to
providing listeners with such thought provoking material!"


--

Skye Turell <turel33@west.net>






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   Sep > Sep 15

                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Kerry Ferrand <kferrand@rocketmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:49:34 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:43:14 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


> From: Doc Barry <authority@webtv.net>
> Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:10:09 -0700 (MST)
> To: Updates@globalserve.net
> Subject: Missed the Show?

> To catch a peek at the promo with some photos go to:
> http://tnt.turner.com/kgb

Ok the show itself hasn't screened here yet (But Im sure it
eventually will) so I cant comment on that but just looking
at those promo images I can find some big problems:

The Image with the caption

"A UFO encountered by a Russian MIG during military
maneuvers."

clearly shows an American McDonald Douglas F-15A or
C Eagle in flight not a MiG (unless the F-15 *was* the
UFO:-)

The pic with

"This image depicts an elusive, cylinder-shaped object
which was chased for several minutes by a Russian MIG"

Shows the rear top section of a US made ejection seat,
the ACESII which can be found in the F-16, F-16 and A-10
(and a few other aircraft which wouldn't give that
type of view)
One of the seat's unique environmental sensor pitot
tubes is prominent in the photo. The footage is
from no MiG


K







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   Sep > Sep 15

                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:02:34 PDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:47:11 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:27:35 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

>From: Doc Barry <authority@webtv.net>
>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:10:09 -0700 (MST)
>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Missed the Show?

>Because of many requests, those who missed the TNT Network ninety
>minute Documentary, "The Secret KGB UFO Files", mark your calendar
>for encore showings on:

>TNT Cable Network
>Wednesday Sept. 16th Midnight (ET/PT)
>Tuesday Sept. 22nd at Midnight (ET/PT)

>To catch a peek at the promo with some photos go to:
>http://tnt.turner.com/kgb

>== Doc

>~~~~~Get BREAKING news plus UFO/ET news - NOW - click on "What's Up
>Doc?" www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518

Doc & List,

I went to the linked web site and had a browse at the prom
photos. (The program has not been shown in Oz yet) The very
first image I saw was of apparent UFO wedged side on into the
earth from a supposed impact. I can only say how how false the
impact scene appeared to be to me. Is it only in Russian soils
that a vehicle can crash into the earth with enough impact to
bury half itself and yet displace no soil whatsoever?

Entertainment perhaps, edification - no way!

Regards,

Leanne Matin

Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia






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   Sep > Sep 15

                           Re: UFO Video Technique

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:44:41 PDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:42:00 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Video Technique


>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:48:23 -0500
>From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Video Technique

>>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:09:06 +0100
>>Re: UFO Video Technique

>><snip>

>>I've been looking through the "JohnBro" images, and I just want
>>to give some short comments to these.

>Hi Asgeir, here is a nice chance IMHO to review the basics for
>an image managing process. As you can see the compromise to
>accept as a real UFO any object 'filmed', 'videotaped' or
>'photographed' is a delicate matter. With some programs and help
>of technical advisors with knowledge in photography, video
>recording, filming and image manipulation, including experienced
>investigators and qualified researchers, that we can count on in
>this list, you may surely get if not an exact image definition a
>defined demonstrable difference between a caterpillar bug from a
>cylindrical, oval or craft shaped object.

>The numerous methodologies are not always possible due to
>conflicting priorities and available resources. It is necessary
>to mention that some resources that belong to commercial use as
>image processors or drawing PC software are wrongly taken
>sometimes as primary tools to develop certain subjective
>approach against a conclusive, scientific, skilled and
>demonstrable analysis result. For this scientific image
>recognition analysis purposes we must have enough ORIGINAL
>material availability, integrity of researchers, PC software
>accuracy, and self confidence that what we are looking for is
>the TRUTH and not simply what we naively want.

>>My opinion is that most of these images - due to the fuzzy
>>outlines and the changing object sizes and shapes - carries
>much >resemblance to huge swarms of insects (bees, wasps,
>>grasshoppers, butterflies etc.). >

>Please check this JPG file that was provided by Mrs. Elena
>Potter from CSETI, she is collaborating with us in ALCIONE and
>she captured this nice image, Mrs.Potter is an honorable lady,
>she took the picture and send it to me the 13th of september.
>Image size is 48k and may take time to download.Sorry.

>Mrs. Potter video capture at:

>http://www.alcione.org/potersep.jpg

>>That is, the objects appearing in these images could very well
>>be explained by a natural phenomenon.

>>Any resemblance to metallic object surfaces could be explained
>>by the sun's reflections, from the rapid movement of the
>>reflective wings of most of these insects.

>Here we must take a picture of a known insect against the
>sunlight, after that make the comparison with the other. But,
>this must be done in a same time of day, angle, atmospheric
>conditions, like air pollutants, visibility obstructions like
>fog, smog or haze, air density, ambient temperature, time of the
>day, same camera, tape or film brand. In the case that you tell
>we must also know what specific insect we are talking about.
>IMHO if an insect hasn't been recognized falls in the case of
>'unidentified flying object' or UFO. You can't say it is a bug
>neither a bird, cloud, grass, ash, paper, whatever you meant or
>imagine. We only can GUESS.

>>I guess that many of the UFO experiences (i.e., sightings and
>>photos) from throughout the world could be explained by this
>>"insect phenomenon".

>You are completely right, it is known that a high percentage of
>supposed UFO's were mistakenly recognized as the real "thing" I
>dare to say that almost a 90% of sightings is not a real UFO.

>>Some other possible explanations could be: (runaway/damaged?)
>>kites or (weather)
>>balloons.

>There are many other possible explanations, I agree with you
>Asgeir.

>Comments and critics are welcome.

>Best regards to you and all.

>Alex Franz
>alcione.org

Alex (& List),

When I went to the linked page and perused the image the first
thing that occurred to me was that the silvery image's shape
appeared to match that of the sun shield in shape and
orientation. Is there a link to an image of the shading object
that may show it better?

As the image stands I think the silvery object may be an image
of the shading object that has been bounced around between the
lenses and eventually captured on one lense's surface.

What do Bruce Maccabee and the VideoMeister think of such
images?

Regards,

Leanne Martin
Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia







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                           Re: CNN's John Holliman

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:38:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:38:03 -0400
Subject: Re: CNN's John Holliman



Source: IUFO Mailing List
http://www.UFOmind.com/UFO/media/mailing/archive/iUFO/msg18237.shtml


Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 10:23:35 -0400
From: Pat Frye
Subject: Re: IUFO: (Fwd) Re: R.I.P. John Holliman


-> IUFO Mailing List

Hi Folks,

It is a real shame about John. I knew John, he graduated from
Georgia a year or so ahead of me, but he came back often to
speak and do his alumnus thing. Being a highly visible graduate
of the Grady School of Journalism, he was requested to lend
credibility to the school often.

At one of those functions, I approached him about UFOs and the
whole mess. We talked and he was genuinely interested and we
were going to get together to talk. I was in the process of
getting my information together to present to him. I wanted him
to host and me produce a series of programs detailing the
phenomenon in its entireity. There was no promise that it would
go anywhere and the talks were just between us. I doubt he
mentioned anything to anyone about it, but he was willing to
talk. I first approached him in 1997 as the Roswell circus was
getting started.  He seemed very receptive and seemed to have
some good informationa nd was very interested in my info. He
knew I was a graduate of the school with a BA and MA in
broadcast news and he knew that I had been doing tv production
for over 20 years. At the time, my former wife, Terri, was the
Learning Resources Coordinator for the Journalism Resource
Center, she still is. Anyway, my point, he probably saw me as
credible and not a crackpot. Also, I told him of my experience
while I was int he Army.

I just want to add, I've worked with many newspeople, both local
and national level figures, and he was a real and very down to
earth person, there was not the prima donna pompous attitude
that is so prevelent in this business. He was someone I trusted.
I had the same professors that he had and I know he learned well
and had a solid basis for his knowledge and trade. Also, we both
went through school during the Nixon/Vietnam period and the
Watergate goings on; I know he had a firm skepticism for
institutions and government and what they say.

I am very sorry I took so long to get back to him, much was my
fault because I had a hard time presenting the information and
not seeming like one of those people they always portray on tv
as the type who is into this field. It was very important to me
tocome across prepared and credible. I felt I had one shot at
getting his attention in a serious manner and I didn't want to
blow it. My personal life got in the way of getting together.
Geez, a divorce sure takes over a person's life.

Peace and regards, Pat






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   Sep > Sep 15

                 Jodrell Bank Hunts For Alien Radio Signals

From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 02:07:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:52:20 -0400
Subject: Jodrell Bank Hunts For Alien Radio Signals

Monday, September 14, 1998 Published at 14:07 GMT 15:07

http://www.news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_170000/170954.stm

Sci/Tech

Anyone out there?

Jodrell Bank on the hunt for radio signals from aliens

Astronomers have begun the most sensitive and comprehensive
search ever attempted to look for radio signals from aliens. Our
science editor Dr David Whitehouse reports:

The research programme, organised by the Search for
Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI) Institute in the US, is
called Project Phoenix. It is using the Jodrell Bank radio
telescope in England and the huge Arecibo radio telescope in
Puerto Rico.

Scientists believe they stand the best chance of finding out if
there is intelligent life in space with radio observations.

This is because radio waves travel relatively unhindered through
space and are easy to detect.

The radio telescopes have begun to look at several hundred
Sun-like stars that lie within a distance of 200 light years.

Cosmic

Jill Tarter, Director of the SETI Institute, says: "By using the
Arecibo and Jodrell Bank telescopes in the search we will have
the most sensitive system possible."

The privately-funded SETI Institute has developed an
ultra-sensitive receiving system that can sift through the
cosmic static looking for any evidence of an artificial signal.

The receiver is located at the Arecibo telescope and will be
used to make the initial detection of candidate signals. Jodrell
Bank will then be immediately used to eliminate earth-based
interference or confirm any suspected extra-terrestrial signal.

Previous searches for Life in the Universe have always been
plagued by interference originating on Earth or from artificial
satellites.

The search is being undertaken during two three-week observing
sessions each year and will continue for several years.

Professor Andrew Lyne, Director of Jodrell Bank, said: "If an
extra-terrestrial signal were detected, it would be one of the
most dramatic discoveries ever made. We are glad that we can
make a contribution to this exciting scientific quest."







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                           Re: UFO Video Technique

From: Cheyne Conrad <chyren23@q-net.net.au>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 16:47:39 +0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:00:10 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Video Technique


>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:48:23 -0500
>From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Video Technique

>Please check this JPG file that was provided by Mrs. Elena
>Potter from CSETI, she is collaborating with us in ALCIONE and
>she captured this nice image, Mrs.Potter is an honorable lady,
>she took the picture and send it to me the 13th of september.
>Image size is 48k and may take time to download.Sorry.

>Mrs. Potter video capture at:
>
>http://www.alcione.org/potersep.jpg

>There are many other possible explanations, I agree with you
>Asgeir.

>Comments and critics are welcome.

>Best regards to you and all.

>Alex Franz
>alcione.org

Hi list!

You know, the image here is strange in that it almost exactly
mirrors the shape of the jug or bottle used to block out the
sun! It seems like a 'mirrored' top and bottom of the neck and
shoulders of the bottle. Could it be some kind of reflection off
the window glass from the surface of the blocking object, or
some other type of refraction/reflection?

Any other ideas?

Also, has anyone here heard of the phenomenon known as 'Sun
Dogs' - could this be related in any way to the images recorded
using this technique?

Comments?

Cheers!

C D Conrad








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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:21:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:24:18 -0400
Subject: Re:  KGB Files Show


>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:43:35 -0700 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Soviet UFO Crash - TNT KGB files

>Hi everyone,

>I was one of the people who does not get Ted Turner's TNT on
>cable so I missed seeing the UFO Special on Sunday.
>Tony from CSETI was kind enough to inform me about a few images
>from this UFO special that are now on the CSETI web page.  Is
>this something that was staged by the Russians to get some much
>needed foreign cash or ...
>deleted<

>Nick Balaskas

Nick and List,

I think I will agree upon this assumption, and it looks like the
Russians (or someone else) may have succeeded here, and TNT will
gather more viewers to (the adverts on) their channel. Maybe
they are not so interested in investigating the possibilities
for a hoax here.....(?)

I don't know how much the Russians were likely to get for this
footage, but it appears to me that this event is very similar to
the Mexico City disc footage, which - based upon the most recent
knowledge - might be a hoax, and likely to be planned just to
make money from TV companies, or, possibly some kind of a
co-operation between the TV company and the makers of the
footage.....?

Apparently, there should be plenty of reasons for being
skeptical to these images. By closely looking at the images (and
not the film!), they don't appear very credible to me, based on
the following observations:

-    This whole story  seems to be based on the Roswell
incident, especially when looking at the autopsy......

-    The soldiers don't seem to approach the object by taking
care of any potential radiation, i.e., I can't see any
radiation-measuring instruments being used...... (or, they
didn't think of this possibility in the earlier days?)

-    Nor do they appear to be affected by any sorts of radiation
either; something which should be expected when dealing with a
potential ET disc?

-    I can't see any clear distinctions on the uniforms, and, do
they really look like professional russian officers and soldiers?

-    The guards seem to be located in a rather unorganised
manner, and pointing their guns almost in any direction (at
least one of them), and even pointing at the _apparently_ higher
officer(s) inspecting the object. The guards should preferably
be located at some distance from the object, and also pointing
their armed guns in a direction away from the inspectors and
investigators.......

-    The object doesn't appear to be of a credible construction,
not even for an ET one...... (which I guess it should appear to
look like)

-    We observe the object only from one side in these
images......., and it is likely to be the bottom (though the
image suggests it to be the top, where the grill is), since it
lacks a typical dome here, which the (lonely?) alien pilot
should see through while flying........

-    And, is the object really enormous in size..........? It seems almost
too small for a single pilot........

-    There is no visible buckling of the object, due to a
potential bouncing...especially when considering the object
itself has actually broken in, at least, two pieces, and it is
thus apparently made from a fairly Earth-like material which can
be broken into pieces.....

-    The russian soldiers hardly get their pay these days......

To conclude, I think it is very wise to be skeptical here.
What's your opinion?

Best regards,
AWS







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   Sep > Sep 15

                   'Sightings On The Radio' - Yukon Report

From: Bill Oliver <boliver@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:08:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:25:49 -0400
Subject: 'Sightings On The Radio' - Yukon Report


Listen to 'Sightings On The Radio'" this Tuesday night and hear
about a strange case from the Yukon involving a mother and
daughter. Check out more from the Yukon at:

http://www.ufobc.org






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               Re: Jodrell Bank Hunts For Alien Radio Signals

From: Doc Barry <authority@webtv.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 04:51:18 -0700 (MST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:09:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Jodrell Bank Hunts For Alien Radio Signals

The press releases from SETI continue to amuse me. If they
detect a radio signal from aliens, "EUREKA -- proof of
extraterrestrial existence". Since the signal may have taken 50
years to get here, perhaps we can signal back, and they would
get our signal in 2048.

Press releases always describe the elaborate radio telescope
equipment, which is top notch.

There is also the chance that to civilizations which may be
billions of years older than ours, radio signals would be
similar to us using indian blanket smoke signals for
communication.

Since SETI is now privately funded no one objects to their
goals. However, reliance on SETI results, ignores the hundreds
of eyewitness testimonies, radar reports, photos, videos, glazed
earth and plants recovered from alleged landing sites, that are
signals, not only of extraterrestrial existence, but trespassing
of our airspace by visitations to this planet.

== Doc

~~~~~Get BREAKING news plus UFO/ET news - NOW - click on "What's Up
Doc?" www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518






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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:31:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:27:48 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show

>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:49:34 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Kerry Ferrand <kferrand@rocketmail.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>> From: Doc Barry <authority@webtv.net>
>> Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:10:09 -0700 (MST)
>> To: Updates@globalserve.net
>> Subject: Missed the Show?

>> To catch a peek at the promo with some photos go to:
>> http://tnt.turner.com/kgb

>Ok the show itself hasn't screened here yet (But Im sure it
>eventually will) so I cant comment on that but just looking
>at those promo images I can find some big problems:

>The Image with the caption

>"A UFO encountered by a Russian MIG during military
>maneuvers."

>clearly shows an American McDonald Douglas F-15A or
>C Eagle in flight not a MiG (unless the F-15 *was* the
>UFO:-)

True.  According to the description, a MIG was sent up to shadow
the American Jet, and caught the object in the image as it was
filming the jet in flight.


>The pic with

>"This image depicts an elusive, cylinder-shaped object
>which was chased for several minutes by a Russian MIG"

>Shows the rear top section of a US made ejection seat,
>the ACESII which can be found in the F-16, F-16 and A-10
>(and a few other aircraft which wouldn't give that
>type of view)
>One of the seat's unique environmental sensor pitot
>tubes is prominent in the photo. The footage is
>from no MiG

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but while working in the
press I was amazed to find that the ejection seats used in
American Jets were actually built by a British firm that held
the patents on them.  It seems that this firm had a lock on the
ejection seat market and sold them to many manufacturers.  Since
they apparently set the standard, it would be unlikely that we
could identify a jet by this method.

Steve






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               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Marie Ivey <jmi@aretha.jax.org>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:24:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:17:55 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:27:58 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 11:19:16 -0700
>>From: Greg Long <greglong@PACIFICHARBOR.COM>
>>Subject: Death of Roswell
>>To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM


Kevin,

Why do you dignify this personal attack with a response. Your
work speaks for itself. If this person has a grudge with you he
should email you separate from this list and not burden the rest
of us. Please let this subject rest. Roswell is whatever it is
and speculation from either point of view is pointless. When
and if new facts emerge, I'm sure we will all be enlightened.

Please keep investigating and publishing your findings. I hope
others will do the same

Best regards,

Marie








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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:39:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:13:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:34:09 -0400
>From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:06:51 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

><snip>

>With respect to you monster discussion/rebuttal on Roswell:
>Bravo!

Will join in the chorus.

The next time someone leaves the List in despair and disgust, the
best answer will be:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/sep/m12-003.shtml

It does reconciliate you with ufology and research.

There is still hope after all - maybe not for the debunkers, but
for the rest of us.







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               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Michel M. Deschamps <739411@ican.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:27:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:01:41 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:40:14 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:27:58 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 11:19:16 -0700
>>>From: Greg Long <greglong@PACIFICHARBOR.COM>
>>>Subject: Death of Roswell
>>>To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

>>>If you recall, the Ed Walters lie was to be such a case, at
>>>least, photographically. It, too, entered the trash heap of
>>>history as just another hoax.

>I wonder if our resident optical physicist Dr. Maccabee would
>agree with that last statement. After all, he analyzed the pictures
>and videos. What are Mr. Longs' credentials for analyzing
>photographs, that he dismisses Ed Walter's photos so easily?

>>>Randle's face instantly went hard and flat; a certain glare
>>>entered his eyes.

>>>Randle shot a hard look at me,

>>>Clearly, from his blank expression, it was a bit
>>>of an imposition, I could tell.

>>>Randle looked at me with his hard eyes

>This is absurd. Mr. Long apparently needs no other form
>of communication than facial expressions to guage the
>thoughts of others. If one is running around making a
>nuisance of one's self, one is likely to encounter less
>than friendly expressions anyway. It's self perpetuating.

>I suppose Mr. Long knows Ed Walters' photos are fake
>because he saw Ed's face once.

>Greg

Right on. I totally agree with you, Greg. Why is Mr. Long
writing about Ed walters like that, when we all know that many
other people have seen the same thing (more otr less), but have
not been fortunate enough to photograph them. It is _so_ simple,
isn't it, to attack or discredit something (or someone), if
there's only one thing to discredit.

Take the Roswell incident, for example (and a perfect one, at
that). I've heard a lot of people talk about Roswell as if it
were the only UFO crash/retrieval case on record. But it is not.
The only reason people talk about it that way is the fact that
it is the only case in which there was a good number of military
and civilian witnesses (100+). And because it is the ONLY case
of which we know so much about, some people (skeptics, most
likely) will try to discredit it. Because if they can discredit
something which, in their mind, is the only ONE, and they
succeed (let's say) in destroying it, then the other cases (if
there are any) would crumble away. I think that's their
reasoning.

In Ed Walter's case, I believe there may be another reason why
he is being attacked or discredited. The simple fact that he has
had several sightings by himself (sometimes in the presence of
his wife) is enough (for some people) to say: he's lying. But I
believe him. The guy's got photographic proof, for God's sake.

I personally know a man (Don Campbell: former INCO welder,
Foreman, teacher) who does not have photographic proof, but who
has had about 53 sightings between 1966 and 1975. From what he
has told me, most of his sightings were lights in the sky, but
nonetheless, highly unusual...zig-zagging, moving up and down,
sideways, doing acrobatics, etc.) But there were at least 6 or 7
good sightings where the object would either fly about 50 feet
above his head, with his young son standing next to him. Other
times, the fifty-foot craft would come into INCO property
(highly restricted), moving at 15 MPH at 80 feet off the ground,
and witnessed by 20 welders and plate shop workers. And there's
more, which would take too long to describe. The only reasons
why I believe him is (1) newspaper articles corroborate some of
the happenings he has witnessed; (2) I found three reports he
made to the local Radar Base on a microfilm reel I purchased
from the National Archives of Canada; and (3) I've gotten to
know him and found him to be a highly credible person. And
again, other people have seen what he has seen, so he's not the
only one to have had so many sightings. I've done more than just
look at his face; I met him and spoke to him. I just wish more
people would do that instead of discreditting someone (or
something) at a distance.

My point is: It's much easier to attack or discredit something
when you believe it to be the _only_ thing, than it is to attack
or discredit multiple things.

-- Michel M. Deschamps
---------





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                     Re: Jeff Rense's Show Pulls Numbers

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:26:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:18:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Jeff Rense's Show Pulls Numbers


>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:30:30 -0700
>From: Skye Turell <turel33@west.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Jeff Rense

>Not only is Jeff a great guy, but his track record is showing that
>good guys can indeed finish first.

>Ratings Dynamite

>Jeff continues to draw dominant ratings numbers for his
>affiliates.

CONGRATULATIONS Jeff!

Makes for an interesting title for new best seller, "When Good
Things Happen to Good People."  What can I tell you man,
'sometimes' the Universe actually works!

Move over ding-dong 'Bell,' next stop 'Sightings on the Air'
#1 Nationally! (I wish Vegas was taking bets. I'd get rich.
That Jeff's program will hit number 1 nationally is what
the boys downtown call -a lock!- <G>)

Kudo's Jeff. You really do deserve all the accolades that
you are receiving.

A not so secret admirer and supporter of your work,

John Velez, Webmaster IF-AIC
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
________________________________________________






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   Sep > Sep 15

                         Re: Rocky Raccoon as Alien

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:35:58 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:21:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Rocky Raccoon as Alien

List,

For anyone interested in these matters, there's a profile in
today's "Science Times" section of the NY Times of Kary Mullis,
the Nobel Laureate chemist who overturned the way biology is done
by inventing the polymerase chain reaction.

Mullis is slightly eccentric, to say the least. Of his book,
"Dancing Naked in the Mind Field," published last month by
Pantheon, the author of the article has this to say:

"...the line between fact and entertainment in Dr. Mullis's world
can be hard to discern. In his book, he professes to believe in
astrology, to have been rescued from a fatal accident by a person
traveling in an astral plane, and to have conversed with an alien
disguised as a raccoon."

Dennis







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   Sep > Sep 15

                    China Lake & Flying Disc Construction

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:20:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:28:09 -0400
Subject: China Lake & Flying Disc Construction


Dear All,

We are building up a considerable body of evidence relating to
the construction of flying discs at China Lake. This goes right
back to the 1940s and we have been lucky enough to speak to
people who saw similar craft there during the late 1950s and
early 1960s whilst working with a variety of contractors.

The US Navy is said to be heavily involved and perhaps
surprisingly the work is ongoing........

If anyone has any information on this we hope to be able to talk
to them in strict confidence as soon as possible.

I can be contacted via email and I am happy to travel to meet
bona-fide witnesses.

Tim Matthews - Classified Aircraft Research.

matthews@zetnet.co.uk





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   Sep > Sep 15

                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:40:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:26:14 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show

>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:21:38 +0100
>Subject: Re: Soviet UFO Crash - TNT KGB files

<snip>

>Nick and List,

>I think I will agree upon this assumption, and it looks like the
>Russians (or someone else) may have succeeded here, and TNT will
>gather more viewers to (the adverts on) their channel. Maybe
>they are not so interested in investigating the possibilities
>for a hoax here.....(?)

>I don't know how much the Russians were likely to get for this
>footage, but it appears to me that this event is very similar to
>the Mexico City disc footage, which - based upon the most recent
>knowledge - might be a hoax, and likely to be planned just to
>make money from TV companies, or, possibly some kind of a
>co-operation between the TV company and the makers of the
>footage.....?

I think it's obvious that money is a motivating factor in
Russia, just as it is in the rest of the world. Part of the
production went to great lengths to show the transfers of "KGB
Documents" for $10,000 (apparently U.S. dollars), giving the
impression that the most interesting KGB documents are being
essentially auctioned to the highest bidder.

>Apparently, there should be plenty of reasons for being
>skeptical to these images. By closely looking at the images (and
>not the film!), they don't appear very credible to me, based on
>the following observations:
>
>-  This whole story seems to be based on the Roswell
>incident, especially when looking at the autopsy......

Actually, the Roswell incident was mentioned in passing as a
reason that Soviet leaders were becoming more interested in the
UFO phenomenon. It's safe to say that the infamous headlines
caused quite a lot of excitement, regardless of the cause.

>-  The soldiers don't seem to approach the object by taking
>care of any potential radiation, i.e., I can't see any
>radiation-measuring instruments being used...... (or, they
>didn't think of this possibility in the earlier days?)

This incident allegedly occured in the late 60's, so the dangers
of radiation exposure was well known.

>-  Nor do they appear to be affected by any sorts of radiation
>either; something which should be expected when dealing with a
>potential ET disc?

You are assuming a connection between an ET craft and radiation,
which hasn't (to my knowledge) been proven, and that the alleged
film was taken soon after the craft was discovered.

>-  I can't see any clear distinctions on the uniforms, and, do
>they really look like professional russian officers and soldiers?
>
>-  The guards seem to be located in a rather unorganised
>manner, and pointing their guns almost in any direction (at
>least one of them), and even pointing at the _apparently_ higher
>officer(s) inspecting the object. The guards should preferably
>be located at some distance from the object, and also pointing
>their armed guns in a direction away from the inspectors and
>investigators.......

I'd like to see the entire film, rather than the "clips" that
were shown on the program. That may show more purpose in their
actions and movements. But your point is a good one, and an
analysis of the uniforms, weapons, vehicles, and other objects
would need to take place to help validate (or invalidate) the
film.

>-  The object doesn't appear to be of a credible construction,
>not even for an ET one...... (which I guess it should appear to
>look like)

>-  We observe the object only from one side in these
>images......., and it is likely to be the bottom (though the
>image suggests it to be the top, where the grill is), since it
>lacks a typical dome here, which the (lonely?) alien pilot
>should see through while flying........

>-  And, is the object really enormous in size..........?
>It seems almost too small for a single pilot........

>-  There is no visible buckling of the object, due to a
>potential bouncing...especially when considering the object
>itself has actually broken in, at least, two pieces, and it is
>thus apparently made from a fairly Earth-like material which can
>be broken into pieces.....

The impression that I got was that the "craft" had jammed itself
into the ground, and had not actually broken into two pieces,
but I could be wrong. From the computer simulation of the crash
I would think that the stress of the crash would have blasted it
into a million small pieces, but its strength allowed it to
survive (more or less) intact. However, I agree that the size
seemed rather small and I'd like to see an analysis of the
symbols that were shown on it.

>-  The russian soldiers hardly get their pay these days......

Perhaps they were able to get regular pay checks in the late 60's.

>To conclude, I think it is very wise to be skeptical here.
>What's your opinion?

Agreed. Unless the owner of the film is willing to allow it to
be tested, and its provenance documented, we are left with
nothing more than a series of really interesting images that
don't mean much. Given the financial crisis in that part of the
world, the possibility of this being an elaborate hoax needs to
be considered. It also could be old KGB film that was designed
as a disinformation tool and never (officially) used.

Steve







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               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: "Jerome Clark" <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 98 12:05:38 PDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:16:07 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


> From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
> Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:27:58 EDT
> To: updates@globalserve.net
> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

> >Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 11:19:16 -0700
> >From: Greg Long <greglong@PACIFICHARBOR.COM>
> >Subject: Death of Roswell
> >To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

> All I can say is WOW. This illustrates the problem with dealing
> with people you don't know, or entering into a Ufological
> environment where you don't understand the local politics. He
> certainly has gone a long way in seeing sinister motives where
> there were none. All I can say as that as I accepted the ride in
> Seattle, I felt that some believed I had gotten in the wrong
> car. Shouldn't have dismissed the cab the TV station supplied.

> >The Roswell case is now, in my mind, dead.

I know Greg Long a little.  We've talked on the phone a few times
and exchanged information, and I provided him with some material
for use in his book on Kenneth Arnold.  I thought his book on
Yakima's UFO phenomena, published in 1990 by CUFOS, was a fine
contribution to our subject. He's written some worthwhile IUR
articles.  On the whole I've had a favorable impression of him,
both professionally and personally.

That said, I found his "Death of Roswell" posting symptomatic of
much that is wrong with ufology these days, virtually an object
lesson in the futility of holding one's views on a subject to be
the only ones worth respecting and of turning a dispute about
ideas and analysis of a difficult case into an attack on the
personality, character, and motives of anyone who presumes to
hold a contrary opinion.

Calling someone who thinks Roswell is about an ET crash/
retrieval a money-grubbing charlatan, as Greg attempts to do
here, is the moral equivalent of charging that anybody who
thinks Roswell is about a Mogul-balloon crash is in the pay of
the CIA.  It makes the person who levels the charge feel
good, even downright self-righteous, but it also fouls the
atmosphere as much as it muddies the issues.

I met Kevin Randle in November 1974, at a time when we were both
doing field investigations of alleged cattle mutilations.  Both
of us eventually, and independently, came to skeptical
conclusions.  Both of us live in farm states, know farmers
personally, and never for one moment would deem farmers stupid.
We did, however, come to the conclusion, for many reasons, that
the word of veterinary pathologists about the cause of a cow's
death is more likely to be scientifically valid than a farmer's
impression.  Not a question of anybody's being stupid, just one
of who happens to possess the proper expertise to best answer a
specific question.

Greg's case descends into unintentional comedy when he
accuses Randle of, of all things, the character flaw of having
written science fiction.  As personal attacks go, this doesn't
even rise to the level of bottom-of-the-barrel scraping.  You
have to go under the barrel to get to this level.  Imagine what
would happen if somebody tore into the nonfiction works of
Arthur Clarke, Isaac Asimov, Carl Sagan, or whomever, and
contended that since these guys wrote SF, nothing they said
on any factual subject need be taken seriously.  The critic,
of course, would be viewed as a nut.  I don't think Greg is a
nut, but I do recognize a nutty argument when I see one.

Greg's fevered effort to read sinister motivations into the
behavior of an obviously exhausted Randle -- anybody who's gone
on the road to speak and/or to promote (i.e., sell [gasp!]) a
book will know exactly what that's like -- depresses and
distresses me.  His unwarranted innuendo to the effect that
Randle is insincere, cynical, and greedy tells us nothing except
that Long feels the need to criminalize or otherwise stigmatize
somebody who holds a view with which he does not agree.  The
evidence here seems to be a series of perceived personal slights
as well as his intense belief -- running, as beliefs so often do,
well ahead of the available evidence (and in apparent ignorance
of or indifference to the many thoughtful [and  unrefuted]
critiques we've heard from critics of the Mogul hypothesis) --
that the Roswell case is solved and now everybody who thinks
otherwise had better shut up, or else.

There is already enough of this sort of finger-pointing
and chest-thumping around, and we don't need any more of
it, least of all from someone like Greg Long, who is smart
enough to know better.

Jerry Clark








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                  Re: Jaime Maussan British T.V. Interview

From: Ian J. Darlington <webmaster@interweb-design.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:20:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:30:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Jaime Maussan British T.V. Interview


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Jaime Maussan British T.V. Interview

>>From: Ian J. Darlington <webmaster@interweb-design.co.uk>
>>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Jaime Maussan British T.V. Interview
>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 14:34:08 +0100

><snip>

>>This was in resepct of the BUFORA conference in Leeds this week
>>and allowed Jaime to plug the conference as well as show some
>>brief clips of recent footage taken in Mexico.

>Just for the record it is the (UK) UFO Magazine/Quest International
>conference in Leeds this weekend.

>Unfortunately I only a saw a brief section of the programme when
>Jaime was on and was unable to video it :(

>Did Jaime appear more than once? The section I saw only lasted a few
>minutes and there was no media involvment.


My mistake, I wrote the report from memory later in the day, my
apologies to the people at Quest/UFO Magazine :-)

The segment I saw was basically a Q&A with Jaime being asked
stupid questions by the Irish guy and blonde woman, with the
video footage mixed in.

Regards,

Ian Darlington.
Editor/Webmaster 'Skywatchers'.

Cornwall UFO Research Group
http://www.interweb-design.co.uk/cuforg
mailto:cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk
ICQ 12387110









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   Sep > Sep 16

                     Re: Jeff Rense's Show Pulls Numbers

From: Bill Oliver <boliver@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 18:02:05 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:28:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Jeff Rense's Show Pulls Numbers


>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:26:42 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Jeff Rense's Show Pulls Numbers

>>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:30:30 -0700
>>From: Skye Turell <turel33@west.net>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Jeff Rense
>
>>Not only is Jeff a great guy, but his track record is showing that
>>good guys can indeed finish first.

>>Ratings Dynamite

>>Jeff continues to draw dominant ratings numbers for his
>>affiliates.

>CONGRATULATIONS Jeff!

>Makes for an interesting title for new best seller, "When Good
>Things Happen to Good People."  What can I tell you man,
>'sometimes' the Universe actually works!

Congratulations Jeff from everybody at UFO*BC. We know a class
act when we hear one!






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   Sep > Sep 16

                          Angel Hair? Crop Circles?

From: Richard Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:54:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:33:00 -0400
Subject: Angel Hair? Crop Circles?


Greetings List Members.

I have a couple of questions for anyone in the know. They are
totally unrelated, in spite of the subject line (madeyalook!) of
this message.

Concerning Quirindi NSW Angel Hair;

Has the sample in the plastic container been analysed in any way
yet? Are we sure there's still or ever was anything in there?
Spectroscopy would take what; a second or two to carry out? Is
there a delay being caused by two investigating groups with
opposing points of view on just how to go about testing the
sample? I hope not. Any info or related links would be
appreciated.

Concerning Crop Circles;

Is there an URL on the web where I can see a good, clear, close
photograph of the reported interleaving or weaving together of
the stalks? A collection of research quality photos would be too
much to ask for, I'm sure. If I was going to make a crop circle
and didn't want to break the stalks of the plants involved, I
think I would have to weave them somehow to keep them down.

Statistically; Is there a connection between the end of summer
vacation for the kids and the sudden and multiple occurrence of
crop circles? I'm not poking fun. I'm curious and yes,
sceptical. I understand that there are probably several
different categories of crop circles, the most interesting to me
are the plain vanilla circle variety. The glyphs are obviously
man-made, IMHO until I can be convinced otherwise. Nevertheless,
I welcome any information that may challenge my views in this
area. Numerologists need not apply.


Thank-you in advance for any help.

Cheers;
Richard Goldsmith






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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Mark Rozela <rozela@gateway.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 18:49:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:23:53 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


Hello:

Let me express some of my thoughts concerning the TNT show.
First, at the point where the craft and the ground meet in KGB
video footage there just happens to be leaves,twigs, and small
branches all the way across this line so nothing can be
discerned. Also how come there was no extensive footage of the
Soviet soldiers? This footage of the saucer crash seemed
"fake" to me.

Second, when another piece of footage shows an American with a
translator buying footage, the person behind the desk, looks
directly at the "hidden" camera three times.

Next the Russian lady - the one hour five minute point of the
show, to me, screamed out "actress".

Another point, in the autopsy footage, only the skeletal
components and the most basic of skin covering was shown.Where
was the head?

Now some of what I thought were positives...

I thought that the footage of the cylindrical object pulling
away from the Soviet planes was impressive and real. Also the
footage of the UFO craft dropping into the clouds was real.I
don't purport to be a expert on video analysis, nor do I contend
that these tapes are absolutely genuine.

These were just some of the main points both pro and con that
caught my eye when I watched the show Sunday evening.

In closing I would just like to say that when I was at work
Monday, in addition to me watching the show, I learned that
three other people also watched it. Both said that the footage
right at the beginning of the show (see second paragraph above)
also caught their eye.

Mark Rozela





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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:30:07 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:30:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:39:14 -0400

>>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:34:09 -0400
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:06:51 EDT
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>><snip>

>>With respect to you monster discussion/rebuttal on Roswell:
>>Bravo!

>Will join in the chorus.

>The next time someone leaves the List in despair and disgust, the
>best answer will be:

People are leaving the list in despair and digust over something I or somone
else said and your antidote is the following URL?

>http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/sep/m12-003.shtml

>It does reconciliate you with ufology and research.


Please. It may reconcile you with something, but that something
is neither ufology nor research. It is, instead, Roswell
according to Rudiak. And while we're at it, maybe Rudiak would
like to weigh in on the issue of whether or not bodies were
recovered at Roswell? He's been strangely silent on that subject.
How about it, David? Mucho crashes and bodies or not? When and
where?

>There is still hope after all - maybe not for the debunkers, but
>for the rest of us.

There is all the hope you want. May the Greek chorus of Serge,
Bruce and David live long and prosper. May you stay forever
young. And may Roswell (and/or Ed Walters's polaroids) forever be
your succour and safe harbor.

Dennis







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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: James Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 18:48:23 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:26:32 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


In a message dated 9/15/98 5:41:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
updates@globalserve.net writes:

>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:40:07 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show
>
>>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:21:38 +0100
>>Subject: Re: Soviet UFO Crash - TNT KGB files

>The impression that I got was that the "craft" had jammed itself
>into the ground, and had not actually broken into two pieces,
>but I could be wrong. From the computer simulation of the crash
>I would think that the stress of the crash would have blasted it
>into a million small pieces, but its strength allowed it to
>survive (more or less) intact. However, I agree that the size
>seemed rather small and I'd like to see an analysis of the
>symbols that were shown on it.

The computer simulation clearly (at least to me) showed that the
craft broke up on the several impacts, leaving only that portion
showing. As a result, it was not buried in the earth, merely
resting on the portion remaining.

Jim






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                         Re: Rocky Raccoon as Alien

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 02:28:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:38:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Rocky Raccoon as Alien


>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:35:58 -0500 (CDT)
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Rocky Raccoon as Alien

>List,

>For anyone interested in these matters,

(snip>

>traveling in an astral plane,

Damn and here I thought it was another dimension!
Turns out the 'astral plane' is hardware! <LOL>

>and to have conversed with an alien
>disguised as a raccoon."

It couldn't have been Rocky. If you'll refer to the photo
on the inside cover of your copy of the "White Album"
you'll notice that while John, George, Paul CJ Shemp,
and Ringo are facing forward, that Rocky has his back
to the photographer!

(Unlike the famous Sgt. Pepper photo where Rocky is
facing forward and Paul is the one with his back turned
to the viewer. That was the year that the real Paul
died and they brought in that ringer 'Paul Curley-Joe Shemp'
to help them finish the Sgt. Pepper album.)

It was the Beatles secret message to their fans that
Rocky had in fact already expired! The details of
his death remain a mystery. No one knows if he choked
on his own vomit, died in a airplane crash, drowned
in his own loo while injecting heroin, or if it was just
a bizarre gardening accident.

It wasn't until weeks after the fact that the gruesome
discovery of the body was made by two local children.
In the midst of innocent childsplay they had suddenly
recognized the 'face' on the frizbee they had found in
the road as that of the well known and beloved 5th Beatle,
Rocky Racoon. At the time the authorities thought that
the whole thing was best left 'unsolved.'

If the encounter happened at all, the chances are that
this 'other' talking racoon was an imposter. Just some
ordinary racoon who had assumed the rock legends identity
in hopes of cashing it in for a little cheap anonymous sex.
Happens all the time. Shoot, I've gotten laid myself on a
few occasions by capitalizing on my uncanny resemblence
to Joey Ramone!

You could do it too Dennis. I've seen you. If you shaved your
keester and learned to walk backwards you could pass for
Wayne Newton any day! <VBG>

Talking racoons! Shades of Castaneda!

Peace, [all in fun Dennis]

John Velez, Gideons Bible Salesman
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
________________________________________________






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              Who is Nelson Marcel? [was: Symbols Discovered on

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 03:11:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:24:15 -0400
Subject: Who is Nelson Marcel? [was: Symbols Discovered on


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:08:52 EDT
>Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 05:03:33 -0400
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>But this isn't really the end. All we know is that Marcel didn't
>say a word about bodies... Or did he. According to Nelson
>Marcel, quoted in THE COURIER of February 25, 1996, Jesse told
>him that he had seen "one of several pygmy alien bodies that
>were recovered from the wreckage."

>On the other side of the coin, however, is Jesse, Jr. I asked
>him, specifically, about bodies. He said that his father had
>never mentioned them. It seems more likely to me (remember here
>that I am now speculating) that Jesse Sr. would have told his
>son about bodies had there been any.

>But the point is, according to a Marcel relative, Jesse, Sr. did
>mention bodies.

As to the subject of whether Marcel may have known about bodies,
there is also the following interesting anecdote in Karl
Pflock's "Roswell in Perspective (p.80):

"Another intriguing development from my tapping into the network
of former OSI and CIC oepratives has to do with Ernest O.
Powell, one of the several men stationed at Roswell in July 1947
... I was contacted by Charles R. Shaw, a former CIC/OSI agent
... Circa 1950, Shaw was a member of the OSI detachment at
Selfridge Air Force Force, Michigan, for a brief time under the
command of then Major Ernest O. Powell. Shaw relates:"

" 'Powell .... informed me he had been apprised by the G-2
[intelligence] Officer or the Base Provost Marshall to the
effect that an official source confirmed the recovery of alien
bodies at the said UFO crash site.'"

The Provost Marshall, of course, would have been Edwin Easley,
and the G-2 would have been Marcel. This again leaves the door
a crack open that maybe Marcel did know something about bodies.

Tom Carey also told me that in one interview Marcel stated that
there were some things that he still couldn't talk about. Marcel
certainly never dropped any hints in any of his interviews about
knowing of alien bodies. But maybe he felt that mentioning
strange debris was the most he could reveal. Alien bodies would
have been too hot a topic to handle. All speculation, of course.

David Rudiak






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                            Need To Ask And Tell

From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 06:32:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:32:55 -0400
Subject: Need To Ask And Tell

Hi all,

I need to ask and tell, sorry to disturb, this is not a
spiritual post neither a manipulating message, it's only part of
my thoughts and rallying whims.

How many of us have never seen God but faithfully believe in
his existence?

How many of us have seen enough testimony of ETs and UFOs and
are skeptics?

Why do scientists think that ETs use our same radio system
communication technology and frequencies? More than that, why
the absurd costly search for them while they are already here
since thousands of years ago?

I guess I know why ETs don't show up openly to everybody.

We can't concur with open mind in common acting solutions, we
don't have electric vehicles and antigravity systems instead of
burning oil, we (brother humans) can't feed our starving
congeners around the world and eradicate hunger, we have almost
killed our dying space ship Earth, we can't even use our sleeping
telepathic powers, we can't stop been egoists, we don't have the
guts to stop our nations leaders from stealing and killing. We
don't understand that love is not a word, it is an attitude and
that conscientious is not only an adjective, it is a solution.


Well, that's only my guess.. + 2=A2

Regards and God bless you all,

Alex Franz
alcione.org







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                           Re: UFO Video Technique

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:49:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:18:26 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Video Technique


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Video Technique
>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:44:41 PDT

<snip>

>Alex (& List),

>When I went to the linked page and perused the image the first
>thing that occurred to me was that the silvery image's shape
>appeared to match that of the sun shield in shape and
>orientation. Is there a link to an image of the shading object
>that may show it better?

>As the image stands I think the silvery object may be an image
>of the shading object that has been bounced around between the
>lenses and eventually captured on one lense's surface.

>What do Bruce Maccabee and the VideoMeister think of such
>images?

>Regards,

>Leanne Martin


Good guess. Be tough to prove with these data, however. Would
have to know the distance of the "sun shade" from the camera,
among other things..






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                 DISPATCH # 103 -- the weekly newsletter of

From: ParaScope@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 01:21:30 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:20:44 -0400
Subject: DISPATCH # 103 -- the weekly newsletter of

S O M E T H I N G   S T R A N G E   I S   H A P P E N I N G

9/15/98

Quote of the Week

"The President did not ejaculate in her presence."

--Ken Starr

-----------------------

Rant of the Week: �The Spearm and Halfbreads Chronicals�

Every week we pick the wackiest, scariest, nastiest or funniest rant from the
hundreds of letters received by us here at ParaScope headquarters, and present
it to you as our Rant of the Week. This week, �Rob� leaves his spell-checker
at home as he offers up a "Fallen Angel" theory for UFO encounters. Enjoy.

"In Genesis chapter 6, the Bible chronicals how Fallen Angels came to the
planet and somehow procreated with woman and produced some kind of unnateral
offspring that the Bible calls "NEPHILIM" Gen 6:4 (n.i.v) "The Nephilim were
on the earth in those days - and afterward - when the SONS OF GOD came in unto
the DAUGHTERS OF MEN and had children by them."...I believe these kinds of
things are not only going on today, but have increased in frequency over the
past 50 years....This could be an indication that Christ is coming back
soon...Please note that in 99% of ufo abduction cases, spearm and or eggs are
harvested for genetic experiments....sometimes these halfbreads (NEPHILIM) are
observed by abductees....I have a mountain of info that points to this
conclusion...."

------

All rants are printed �as is,� with spelling and grammar goofs left
uncorrected. Some rants may be edited for brevity or clarity, to the extent
such a thing is possible. If you�ve got a rant you�d like to share, send it to
pscplady@aol.com with �possible rant� in the subject line of your letter.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Coming Up This Week!

Catch a number of great stories this week on the ParaScope web and AOL sites,
including daily updates to our Conspiracy Newsline and Daily Dose features.
Among the articles you'll want to check out:


The Paper Trail: Declassification Round-up

Another fact-packed review of the latest secret document releases is coming
your way. The new edition of the Paper Trail arrives this week, and it's full
of revelations on the hidden history of the Cold War. Highlights include: an
encouraging report from the government's classification appeals panel, the
first documentation of LBJ's secret nuclear strike policy, and a new report on
the CIA's efforts to censor the memoirs of its former spies.

--------------

Fortean Slips: Special Conspiracy Edition!

Never fear, Fortean Slips is still ParaScope's outpost on the paranormal
fringe, but this time out Enigma editor D. Trull takes a walk on the
conspiracy side. Secret societies and hidden histories, computer chip implants
and cyber-surveillance, corporate cover-ups and mind control... Behold the
high weirdness that ensues when the paranormal collides with paranoia!

Holy Grail, Batman!: It's the Dark Knight vs. the Knights Templar, as the
secretive monastic order objects to the depiction of its mysterious heritage
in the comic book "Batman: The Scottish Connection."

Simple Cyborg: A robotics expert has implanted a computer chip into his body
and proclaimed himself the world's first cyborg. But is he really cybernetic,
or just pathetic?

Black Magic, White Collar Crime: A West African millionaire in Miami is
charged with practicing voodoo economics -- he embezzled $240 million by
bamboozling a bank officer with magic spells and evil curses.

--------------

UFO Roundup:

Get the latest sighting reports and UFOlogy news, courtesy of Joseph Trainor's
UFO Roundup! More crop circles found in Western Canada; "alien big cat" seen
in Western Australia which reportedly bit a lamb cleanly in half; cruise ship
passengers witness UFO west of Mexico; a dozen Air Force crewmen stationed at
Nellis AFB die in helicopter crash during night training exercise; NASA
launches investigation into mysterious SOHO, Vortex satellite disasters; lots
more news.

--------------

Conspiracy Newsline:

If you're not paranoid yet, what the hell is your excuse? New York officers
fired for racist Labor Day Parade spectacle which mockingly portrayed the
recent lynching of a black man in Texas; French investigators find elevated
carbon monoxide levels in the blood of Henri Paul, the driver in the Princess
Diana crash; New York officials make excuses for violence during police
dispersal of Million Youth Rally marchers; Monsanto sows seeds of discontent
in Canada and India with plans for genetically modified food and the
"terminator gene"; lots more news.


...All this, and much, much more!


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Jane, Stop This Crazy Thing!

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you're not? Starting to think you've made a wrong turn off the info highway?
Well, we're only going to go over this once, so listen up!

To unsubscribe yourself from Dispatch:

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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:49:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:16:21 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show
>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:02:34 PDT


>>~~~~~Get BREAKING news plus UFO/ET news - NOW - click on "What's Up
>>Doc?" www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518>

>Doc & List,

>I went to the linked web site and had a browse at the prom
>photos. (The program has not been shown in Oz yet) The very
>first image I saw was of apparent UFO wedged side on into the
>earth from a supposed impact. I can only say how how false the
>impact scene appeared to be to me. Is it only in Russian soils
>that a vehicle can crash into the earth with enough impact to
>bury half itself and yet displace no soil whatsoever?

>Entertainment perhaps, edification - no way!


GOOD POINT. I knew something bothered me about that picture
besides the fact that it seemed to be partly surrounded by
trees. Also, it protrudes out of the ground in such a way that
it is slanted TOWARD for forest, yet it is imbedded nealy
halfway into the ground. This suggests to me it would have to
come nearly straight down, not bounce with a hop skip and a jump
the way their animation suggests.

The protuding portion looks to be 5 -6 ft based on th Russian
"soldiers" near it. That means about the same is stuck into the
ground. Perhaps we are to imagine that whenever it crashed th
ground was VERY soft...... but that is no consistent with the
growth of tree right next to is. Or perhaps they would have us
believe it split nicely in half and therefore there is no half
underground...... And no crumpling of the material itself.....


I wonder if it could be a radar dish someone buried there as a
joke!






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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Kerry Ferrand <kferrand@rocketmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:02:48 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:39:46 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:31:07 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

>>The pic with

>>"This image depicts an elusive, cylinder-shaped object
>>which was chased for several minutes by a Russian MIG"

>>Shows the rear top section of a US made ejection seat,
>>the ACESII which can be found in the F-16, F-16 and A-10
>>(and a few other aircraft which wouldn't give that
>>type of view)
>>One of the seat's unique environmental sensor pitot
>>tubes is prominent in the photo. The footage is
>>from no MiG

>Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but while working in the
>press I was amazed to find that the ejection seats used in
>American Jets were actually built by a British firm that held
>the patents on them.  It seems that this firm had a lock on the
>ejection seat market and sold them to many manufacturers. Since
>they apparently set the standard, it would be unlikely that we
>could identify a jet by this method.

>Steve

You're thinking of the Martin-Baker firm who used to have quite a
lock on the western market..but starting from the late 70s just
about every new US type has been fitted with the US designed and
manufactured (by McDD and now Boeing) ACESII seat. It is the only
ejection seat with the antenna-like sensor tubes clearly seen in
the supposed MiG footage (which looks like it was shot from the
back seat of a F-16B or D-not the visibility-challenged little
cockpit of the single seat MiG-21 aircraft they show in their
graphics)

The pictures are either mislabeled or a hoax


K





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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis tacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:08:05 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:37:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:34:09 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:06:51 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

><snip>

>With respect to you monster discussion/rebuttal on Roswell:
>Bravo!

Before you congratulate yourself and Rudiak too much, you
wouldn't be the same Bruce who 'authenticated' Ed Walters's
dubious polaroids to the tune of $20,000, would you?

I didn't think so.

So how about it, Rudiak and Clark, want to go with Walters and
Maccabee on this one?

After all, if Bruce is right about Gulf Breeze, how could he be
wrong about Roswell? Beats me.

Bravo, indeed!

Dennis







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                        Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:09:20 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:34:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
>Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:01:10 +0100
>Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 15:53:30 -0400
>Subject: Re: Ley Lines and Agriglyphs

>Hi all,

>After writing and submitting my first mail regarding Ley Lines
>and agriglyphs (and not agroglyphs?) (i.e., crop circles), today
>(Sept. 9)

Hi List,

To get a more complete picture, and for those of you still
interested in this Ley Line and Agriglyph topic - though
somewhat late - here comes the text (after each '>') of
the _first mail_ I was actually referring to (see above),
and which was _actually not at all submitted_ :

>I'm following the discussions on the formation of agroglyphs
>(crop circles).

>I just wonder whether there could be any connection between
>the so-called Ley Lines, or Earth's el. magnetic lines,
>and the formation of these glyphs?.

>Check here for instance:

>http://www.mind.net/aware/irley.htm

>Do we know anything about the location of the glyphs, contra
>location of Ley Lines and Vortices, and also the Derived
>Vortices (i.e., the points of crossing of nany ley lines)?
>(See URL link above.)

>Could it be an idea to plot some of the known glyphs on
>maps, also showing the Ley Lines, Vortices and Derived
>Vortices, e.g., in England or USA.

>In addition, there could possibly be some additional, natural,
>unknown/known, ambient/external/atmospheric energy sources
>and forces (e.g., extreme solar activities, el. cables located
>above/below ground) interacting (i.e., happened to act
>simultaneously) at the Ley Lines/Vortices, to produce the
>glyphs in the crop fields at certain times. Perhaps there is
>some research going on about this?

>Hence, this could then be some kind of a natural explanation
>to these mysteries.

>Any comments?


Hope this will help.

Best regards
AWS








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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:08:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:44:35 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show

>From: James Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 18:48:23 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

<snip>

>The computer simulation clearly (at least to me) showed that the
>craft broke up on the several impacts, leaving only that portion
>showing. As a result, it was not buried in the earth, merely
>resting on the portion remaining.

>Jim

I will review it again, and you may be right. That would explain
why the craft didn't create more of a gouge in the earth when it
came to rest against the tree. But, then the question of why it
didn't break up into small pieces on impact become s more valid.


Steve







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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 98 12:08:58 PDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:20:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:08:05 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis tacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:34:09 -0400
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:06:51 EDT
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>><snip>

>>With respect to you monster discussion/rebuttal on Roswell:
>>Bravo!

>Before you congratulate yourself and Rudiak too much, you
>wouldn't be the same Bruce who 'authenticated' Ed Walters's
>dubious polaroids to the tune of $20,000, would you?

>I didn't think so.

Dennis, perhaps you could explain this so that it doesn't look
like an ad-hominem slur.  I don't associate such with you, and I
can't believe you meant this to be what it sounds like.
Possibly you were having a bad day, as do we all from time to
time.  Agree or disagree with him, I think you'd have to concur
that Bruce is a good and honorable guy.

>So how about it, Rudiak and Clark, want to go with Walters and
>Maccabee on this one?

>After all, if Bruce is right about Gulf Breeze, how could he be
>wrong about Roswell? Beats me.

I guess it's the logic of the above that beats me.  Sigh.

Cheers,

Jerry Clark








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                          Re: Who is Nelson Marcel?

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:47:30 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:21:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Who is Nelson Marcel?


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 03:11:37 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Who is Nelson Marcel?

>Tom Carey also told me that in one interview Marcel stated that
>there were some things that he still couldn't talk about. Marcel
>certainly never dropped any hints in any of his interviews about
>knowing of alien bodies. But maybe he felt that mentioning
>strange debris was the most he could reveal. Alien bodies would
>have been too hot a topic to handle. All speculation, of course.

>David Rudiak

So you're now all agreed that there was indeed a second crash
site? Because if bodies had been found at the Brazel site, it
would seem logical that that would be the first thing that
Brazel would mention to Sheriff Wilcox or anyone else, not the
funny metal.

Presumably, the bodies would have been found earlier at the
other crash site, though, the one that didn't warrant a press
release. But the Brazel crash _did_ warrant a press release
because civilians were involved, right? But wait a minute.
According to Randle & Schmitt, the civilian fire department was
at the other crash site, even if, as Randle admits, there is no
record in the existing record of them having been there.

It all gets a bit dense for a dunce like me to follow. I mean,
what with the big explosion and all, I'm not even sure why there
wasn't a fire on the Foster ranch. I guess it's because UFOs
with no bodies in them don't start fires in the desert, but UFOs
with bodies in them do. Yeah, that must be it.

The only people I feel sorry for in this whole Roswell business
is the Air Force. Apparently, no one takes their death threats
seriously anymore. Hell, even their own retired officers aren't
cowed by their own security oaths. Just let a civilian UFO
researcher they don't know from Adam stick a microphone or
videocamera in their face, and they're more than willing to
spill the beans on the greatest classified secret in world
history. Hey, makes sense to me. And these are the same people
that Stan Friedman keeps telling us can keep a secret?

Bravo, indeed!

Dennis







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             Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: The Beaver Falls, PA

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:54:25 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:24:33 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: The Beaver Falls, PA


>From: Stan Gordon <PAUFO@WESTOL.COM>
>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:55:47 -0500
>Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:34:00 -0400
>Subject: -[For The Record]- P-1947: The Beaver Falls, Pa

>To Mark and those on the list:

>snip>

>In regards to the Beaver Falls, PA photo case...

<snip>

>while I wasn't involved with the investigation...

<snip>

>For a detailed accunt of the case, see Chapter X of the famous
>book "Incident At Exeter" by John G.>Fuller.  Also the August-
>September, 1965 edition of NICAP's "The UFO Investigator" featured
>a story on the analysis of the photos called "New UFO Photos Prove
>Genuine."  Check with the current NICAP or Center For UFO Studies
>for files on the case.

>Also check out the 1969 "Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying
>Objects", Dr. Edward U. Condon, Project Director, under Case #53.

Just for the record, the conclusion of Condon Report photo
analyst William K. Hartmann was:

(p. 78) "A crucial spot on ... negatives was burned out by a
dropped match, assertedly by accident", and;

(p. 80) "[Plate 9 is an example of] a nightime photograph of a
hand- held model illuminated by flashlight ... made by the
writer ... for comparison with ... Case ...53", and;

"Photographic evidence acquires probative value only when known
natural phenomena can be ruled out and it can be shown that a
fabrication was not easy or convenient", and;

(p. 455) "Two photographs of a bright disc with a reportedly
invisible but (in Plate 48) opaque, reflecting, and (in Plate
49) glowing 'appendage' can be easily produced by hand-holding
an illuminated model.  There is no probative evidence for an
unusual phenomenon."

Bob Young






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                          Re: Brown Mountain Lights

From: Keith Stevens <keith.stevens@virgin.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:58:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:41:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Brown Mountain Lights

At 22:10 14/09/98 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brown Mountain Lights
>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 17:01:38 PDT


>Unaccustomed as I am to being a Devil's Advocate ;-]   I would
>like to offer this as a point for consideration:-
>
>We know that there are seaborne algae that glow in the dark when
>agitated by boats and waves, etc.  I think that it is a
>possibility that these nocturnal glowings could possibly be from
>owls or other nocturnals that perhaps have become the abodes of
>an avian-borne version of a similar thing. Perhaps the air
>rushing around the body of an owl in flight agitates an organism
>to give off a glow, and, this may in turn assist an owl in
>finding more prey at night. A symbiotics development, perhaps,
>localised to specific areas?
>
>This could certainly explain the 'bobbing' in flight motion of
>the glowing 'orbs' and their swiftness through the tree tops.

Hi Leanne

A nice idea but it probably falls down on at least two counts.

1 - Ornithologist's I am sure would have observed such a
phenomenon along while ago.

2 - Owls do not actually need light to hunt by. I sat and watched
a recent TV Programme dedicated to the Barn Owl.

It was proved that an Owl relies primarily on its incredible
sense of hearing being able to hunt accurately in total
darkness.Remarkably the Owl actually closed its eyes just prior
to 'strike'.






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                 Re: Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary

From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:00:35 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:27:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary

Recently, it was posted in UFO Updates a request for locating
Jorge Martin by a crew wanting to produce a 'scientifically
oriented' UFO related documentary in Puerto Rico. An area of
interest was the Radio Observatory in Arecibo, P.R.

The author complainted about not been able to get a hold on
Martin. However, they had been in contact and even a couple of
days ago called him.

The curious thing I see is that, as happened with the Japanese
crew contacted by a friend of Bob Durand, this crew started as a
serious effort and ended in the hands of the same rogue UFO
groups connected to the FBI/Mufon situation there.

My best sugestion to Jorge Martin is to avoid everything
connected to these UFO groups, even documentary and TV
productions, as these groups have a long history of hoaxes and
disinformation and has been after Martin for quite a time, not
just for getting legitimacy, but for discrediting
him and his research.


Francisco






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Bourdais Gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:39:40 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:30:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


> Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:34:09 -0400
> From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
> Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

> >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
> >Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:06:51 EDT
> >To: updates@globalserve.net
> >Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

> <snip>

> With respect to you monster discussion/rebuttal on Roswell:
> Bravo!


I say bravo as well to David Rudiak for his outstanding analysis
on Roswell. What a remarkable job of anwering every muddy
argument of the anti-Roswell faction! It's true that we don't
have the whole picture, that there are questions remaining, but
the case for Roswell (at least the debris) remains very strong.

Thank you also to Kevin Randle, who has just been attacked in an
indecent way. There is a cynical line which goes like this :
"When you cannot attack the facts, attack the man !"

Thank you also to Bruce Maccabee, for drawing attention on
Sheridan Cavitt, whose long interview with Col. Weaver is so
revealing on Roswell ! May I point to my article published in
the MUFON Journal of last April, "Roswell : some
contradictions", which deals with that.

Talking of balloons, here is a new one, in France, last week.
After nearly a week of studying a near landing in a garden at
Voreppe - a cherry tree burned, boughs from the top of the tree
taken by the gendarmes (French police) and firemen (a witness
told me that the phone : he saw them from his house), a video
taken at close range by witnesses, a two men team from CNES
during two days, and an interview of Jean-Jacques Velasco (CNES)
on TV on Friday - guess what happened on Saturday morning : CNES
informed us that, after all, it was just a balloon ! But On TV
on Friday, Velasco had in his hands a peculiar drawing of the
object : a kind of ellipsoid with two "legs" like an inverted V
on each side. Let's hope they are just buying time to study all
this quietly.

Gildas Bourdais







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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Jeff Westover <jeff.westover@mailexcite.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:13:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:38:38 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:02:48 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Kerry Ferrand <kferrand@rocketmail.com>
>Subject: Re: KGB Files Show
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:31:07 -0400
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

>>>The pic with

>>>"This image depicts an elusive, cylinder-shaped object
>>>which was chased for several minutes by a Russian MIG"

>>>Shows the rear top section of a US made ejection seat,
>>>the ACESII which can be found in the F-16, F-16 and A-10
>>>(and a few other aircraft which wouldn't give that
>>>type of view)
>>>One of the seat's unique environmental sensor pitot
>>>tubes is prominent in the photo. The footage is
>>>from no MiG

>>Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but while working in the
>>press I was amazed to find that the ejection seats used in
>>American Jets were actually built by a British firm that held
>>the patents on them.  It seems that this firm had a lock on the
>>ejection seat market and sold them to many manufacturers. Since
>>they apparently set the standard, it would be unlikely that we
>>could identify a jet by this method.
>>Steve

>You're thinking of the Martin-Baker firm who used to have quite a
>lock on the western market..but starting from the late 70s just
>about every new US type has been fitted with the US designed and
>manufactured (by McDD and now Boeing) ACESII seat. It is the only
>ejection seat with the antenna-like sensor tubes clearly seen in
>the supposed MiG footage (which looks like it was shot from the
>back seat of a F-16B or D-not the visibility-challenged little
>cockpit of the single seat MiG-21 aircraft they show in their
>graphics)

>The pictures are either mislabeled or a hoax

Or the TNT crew has purchased secret western military film from
the Russians under the guise that it is their own.

I'm sure that the Russians wanted to sell whatever they could
when they got wind of Turner's pocketbook making an appearance in
Russia looking for UFO evidence.

The object filmed through the canopy of whatever jet this is is
still quite amazing.

Jeff Westover






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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:24:24 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:53:19 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:08:40 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

>>From: James Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 18:48:23 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

><snip>

>>The computer simulation clearly (at least to me) showed that the
>>craft broke up on the several impacts, leaving only that portion
>>showing. As a result, it was not buried in the earth, merely
>>resting on the portion remaining.

>>Jim

>I will review it again, and you may be right. That would explain
>why the craft didn't create more of a gouge in the earth when it
>came to rest against the tree. But, then the question of why it
>didn't break up into small pieces on impact become s more valid.

>Steve

Steve and List...

Some points I really need to make clear to the list so as not to
be missinterpreted.

1) I have no illusions that this "does" or "does not" represent
a factual scenario. That is to say, it may or may not be true.
But given the benefit of the doubt ...

2) ... nothing was mentioned about a debris field. If there was
one, there would have had to have been lots of "stuff" to be
picked over by the KGB or whomever it was in charge. This debris
would likely have been more essential to truth than the "saucer"
portion remaining in the ground.  Imagine the secrets in those
small pieces of technology.

3) The word "belief" is an extremely strong word. When applied
in other than a religious connotation, it implies firm,
irrevocable and intimate knowledge of the truth of a thing. That
is, by my philosophy. I rather think it is possible that the
show represented some level of factual information but it's
probability is not "overwhelming," eh?

Sorry about the "eh," I spent a week in Toronto one day.

Jim






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                   Re: UK TV Show Is Looking For UFO Info

From: Keith Stevens <keith.stevens@virgin.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:00:25 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:43:37 -0400
Subject: Re: UK TV Show Is Looking For UFO Info

>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:33:42 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: UK TV Show Is Looking For UFO Info
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>They are willing to listen to information from around the world
>>and not just the UK.

>Gee, good for them!
>They might find some here, if they bothered to look.


Hi Bruce

Don't 'knock them'. I never took much notice of this particular
thread when it started but I seem to recall it concerns Channel
5. These people may actually be really trying to help.

Certainly Channel 5 in the UK is new but already they have put
out a few UFO related programmes. I must admit I have not viewed
their efforts, but I have heard good reports. (I spend too long
looking at this monitor)

Perhaps some one else on the list has and would like to comment?









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                             A Research Question

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:14:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:11:29 -0400
Subject: A Research Question


Hello List-

I wonder if anyone might help me out with a bit of information
for a UFO piece I am working on. Does anyone know from how many
miles away you can (easily, with the naked eye) see the glow of
Las Vegas on the horizon?

Also, if anyone has any information about "Telescope Park" in
Death Valley, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

-Scott C. Carr
Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY






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                           Re: UFO Video Technique

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:47:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:16:18 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Video Technique


>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:49:55 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Video Technique
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Video Technique
>>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:44:41 PDT

><snip>

>>Alex (& List),

>>When I went to the linked page and perused the image the first
>>thing that occurred to me was that the silvery image's shape
>>appeared to match that of the sun shield in shape and
>>orientation. Is there a link to an image of the shading object
>>that may show it better?

>>As the image stands I think the silvery object may be an image
>>of the shading object that has been bounced around between the
>>lenses and eventually captured on one lense's surface.

>>What do Bruce Maccabee and the VideoMeister think of such
>>images?

>>Regards,

>>Leanne Martin

>Good guess. Be tough to prove with these data, however. Would
>have to know the distance of the "sun shade" from the camera,
>among other things..

Hi Guys,

Just a quick observation. Why shoot into the sun at all? Sunshade
or no. The posibilities of bounced reflections on the many lens
elements plus the 'backlit' appearance of any images that are
captured, make the whole technique a no-go from the start. I have
gotten daylight footage of these objects without having to shoot
(into) the sun. I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't know what I was
looking at afterwards if I did. I try to _eliminate_ extraneous
influences on the finished video, not increase them!

I have copies of the tapes in question. There _are_ some very
intriguing shots of anomalous objects in those tapes. But there
are also so many goddam bugs buzzing around that after a few
seconds of viewing the whole thing looks like air borne bugs at
different distances to the camera's lens. Can't tell em apart in
some of the sequences. Everything is moving in the same
direction! Don't get me wrong, there's some genuinely anomalous
stuff on there, it's just damn near impossible to tell which is
which without dedicating some serious time and resources to the
project. I can give neither.

How about concentrating (also) on educating folks on the _best_
techniques rather than the worst? I would like to learn (from
guys like Bruce) what they consider "good video" or well taken
video. What's involved? What should we do/not do? That, would
serve a far more practical purpose than discussion of this faulty
and dangerous 'sunshade' method.

First thing -anyone- learns when they get their first camera is,
_don't_shoot_into_the sun!_ If you should move, or alter your
angle slightly while shooting you could _easily_ recieve
permanent and irreversible damage to the eye/vision. I don't
recommend that _anyone_ try this 'John Bro' technique unless they
are highly experienced observers and very familiar with their
equipment. It _could_be_ very dangerous for an amateur.
I have something like 27 years of experience with complicated
astronomical and photographic equipment and I would _never_ take
chances with my vision by employing the use of a technique such
as the one being discussed here.

My wife has worked with the blind for 19 years, I do not wish to
join their ranks! I'm much more interested in learning how to
record daylight video of these objects safely/correctly/
properly.

There, I feel better! I'll crawl back into my cave now. <G>

Peace,

John (Wadda ya mean shoot _into_ the sun) Velez
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
________________________________________________





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              UFO KGB Files Webpage - Evaluation Of TNT Program

From: Alex Hefman <ufokgb@usa.net>
Date: 16 Sep 98 18:51:05 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:47:25 -0400
Subject: UFO KGB Files Webpage - Evaluation Of TNT Program

[Non-subscriber Post --ebk]

Webpage devoted to the research of
UFO KGB Files from the TNT program:

http://members.tripod.com/~ufokgb

Critical comments welcomed to ufokgb@usa.net








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                        CSETI Assumes 'The Position'

From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:13:23 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:26:25 -0400
Subject: CSETI Assumes 'The Position'


From: Tony Craddock <webmaster@cseti.org>
Via: webmaster@cseti.org

OPERATIONAL READINESS AND THE UNIDENTIFIED FLYING
OBJECT/EXTRATERRESTRIAL INTELLIGENCE (UFO/ETI) SUBJECT:
WHY MILITARY AND NATIONAL SECURITY LEADERS HAVE A NEED TO KNOW

    22 August 1998
    copyright 1998
    Steven M. Greer M.D., Director of CSETI



Abstract:

Key military and national security leaders have been
inadequately informed on the UFO/ETI subject due to its
management under Unacknowledged Special Access Projects (USAPS).
This lack of information has resulted in substantial national
security risks. The risk of inadequate and/or dangerous actions
by uninformed or misinformed leaders is greatly increased by the
lack of in-depth briefings and discussions on this subject. Key
areas of operational readiness are thus placed "at risk" by
these leaders being dangerously uninformed or misinformed on
such matters as the following:

- Use of Alien Reproduction Vehicles (ARVs) in false indications
and warnings (I &W) scenarios.

- The unexpected appearance and disappearance of
extraterrestrial vehicles with super-luminal speed (faster than
light) capabilities.

- Unanticipated extraterrestrial concern over deployment of
space-based military and other assets.

Senior military leaders and senior national security leaders,
including the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the National Security
Council, Senior Watch Officers in the National Military Command
Center, key Congressional leaders, the President, the Secretary
of Defense, the Director of Central Intelligence, among others,
clearly have a need-to-know regarding the issues above.

Background and Introduction:

Since 1990, CSETI (The Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial
Intelligence) a non-profit research organization based in the
United States, has been conducting original research into the
subject of UFOs and Extraterrestrial Intelligence (ETI). In
1991, an initial Comprehensive Assessment was completed and
since that time CSETI has been investigating the subject through
real-time field expeditions throughout the world and through the
identification of scientific evidence and information sources
with direct knowledge of the subject. Sources for our
information and subsequent assessments include:

- Direct, real-time observation of UFOs/Extraterrestrial Objects
via field research teams deployed throughout the world

- Collection of retrospective evidence with thousands of case
reports, including military and civilian pilot encounters,
military and civilian radar contact with these objects, landing
trace cases, photographic and videotape evidence and thousands
of pages of declassified government documents.

- Extensive interviews with several dozen scientists, military
and civilian witnesses in intelligence and other programs and
civilian research witnesses who have been involved in covert
programs. These witnesses have had direct, personal knowledge of
UFO/ETI events and covert programs, including the retrieval and
reverse-engineering of extraterrestrial spacecraft and the
covert applications of technological breakthroughs resulting
from possession of these spacecraft.

The above sources and research have resulted in a number of
assessments regarding the subject in general and national
security implications in particular. These are provided as
separate attachments to this document..

Overview of UFO-Related USAPs:

While tight compartmentation of intelligence and programs is
often needed to maintain security of sensitive operations,
excessive classification and compartmentation poses a threat to
national security and military readiness and is contrary to
Presidential directives. In the case of the UFO/ETI subject,
extreme secrecy and multiple levels of special compartmentation
has existed since the 1940s . This extreme secrecy, together
with the special nature of the technologies involved, has
resulted in a potentially dangerous situation with respect to
lack of oversight of actions not in the national interest,
significant degradation in military readiness to deal with
events related to ETI/UFO and total lack of Congressional
oversight.

The nature of the covert entity/USAP which currently manages the
UFO matter is described in the attached paper �Unacknowledged' .
Briefly, this unusual USAP has the following characteristics:

- Global in scope

- Multiple levels of sub-compartmentalization

- Primarily based in the civilian, privatized
contracting/work-for-others sectors

- Runs parallel to and generally separate from conventional
government, military and intelligence programs, including other
sensitive USAPs/black projects

- Exists as a hybrid entity which draws from high technology
corporations and compartmented, government, intelligence and
military operations, but which in effect functions as an
independent, separate entity

- Apparently, is controlled by no single branch of conventional
government, military Service or agency

- In general, access to this project is by project-controlled
inclusion and access has little to do with the individual's
position in government, military rank or position in the
traditional  (constitutional) chain of command

- After nearly 60 years of studying advanced extraterrestrial
technologies from retrieved ET devices, the group which controls
this USAP possesses substantial technologies which may present a
threat to conventional military assets and to world security in
general.

- Funding for these operations is derived both from the
so-called 'black budget' and from �creative', non-governmental
sources.

- Maintenance of secrecy/control over this project has been at
all costs and has consistently violated legal, constitutional
oversight and checks and balances and the rights of U.S.
citizens.

Discussions with a sitting Director of Central Intelligence,
senior White House staff, senior members of Congress serving on
key, relevant committees, senior military staff in the US and
UK, among others, has shown that access to projects related to
UFOs / ETI is not related to position or constitutional law.
Five star Admiral and former UK Minister of Defense, Lord
Hill-Norton has confirmed that a similar arrangement exists in
the United Kingdom. Directed inquiry by such officials has not
resulted in disclosure, even when the request originated from
the office of the President of the United States.


Why Key Military and National Security Leadership Need to Know:

There are several inter-related aspects of the UFO/ETI issue
which necessitate key military, intelligence and national
security leaders knowing about this matter. Failure by such
leaders to be adequately informed has resulted in a situation
wherein important decisions and actions may be made which could
result in extremely undesirable outcomes. The capabilities of
the UFO/ETI USAP allow for widespread deception of
chain-of-command leadership and for surprise scenarios which
could be catastrophically misinterpreted.

Moreover, while there is no objective evidence that the
non-human life forms behind the genuine extraterrestrial events
are at all hostile towards the earth or humanity in general,
events could be - and more importantly we understand have been -
negatively misinterpreted, leading to unwarranted human military
actions against such ET assets. Such actions constitute a
genuine world security threat about which conventional military
and civilian leadership is unaware. In order to avoid the
potential for future human military actions which could lead to
a dangerous escalation of events, it is imperative that military
and national security leadership be adequately informed on this
subject.

Below is a brief summary of scenarios and activities which
illustrate why such leaders have an immediate need to know on
this matter:

- Misidentification of UFO/Extraterrestrial assets. Since there
are both genuine extraterrestrial and look-alike human
engineered ARV (Alien Reproduction Vehicle) assets, the risk for
confusion and misidentification is real. Such confusion could
result in actions which could then lead to unintended results.
(See also False Indications and Warnings below.)

- Surprise by extraterrestrial object. In the past, senior
military commanders have been surprised by the sudden appearance
of extraterrestrial objects and have taken hostile actions
towards them. For example, in October of 1981, such an object
appeared off of the eastern seaboard, triggering pandemonium in
the U.S. Atlantic Fleet (CINCLANTFLT) Command Center. This
object, estimated 300 feet in diameter and disc shaped, was able
to rapidly move, in one radar sweep from an area off the coast
of Newfoundland to off the coast of Norfolk, Virginia. During
this daylight event, the U.S. Atlantic Fleet Command Center went
to Condition Zebra alert ("Stripes") and orders were given by
NORAD to the CINC, ADM Harry Train, to identify this object and
even force it down if necessary. Fighters were scrambled from
land and sea-based forces and, while one fighter got close
enough to clearly photograph the object, it moved in the span of
one radar sweep from off the coast of Norfolk, Virginia to an
area in the Atlantic Ocean near the Canary Islands, turned
upward at a 60 degree angle, and left the earth's atmosphere.
This situation, which resulted in surprise to the CINC, chaos on
the Command Center Floor, and orders to force down the object
(which could have had catastrophic consequences) could have been
avoided with concept and scenario briefings to top military
leaders and the development of clear "Special Rules of
Engagement" (ROEs) for these unique situations.

- Misinterpretation of Extraterrestrial Actions. It is our
assessment that more that one extraterrestrial civilization is
involved in reconnaissance of the earth and in surveillance of
global military developments. In the past, extraterrestrial
concern over weapons of mass destruction has led to
technological demonstrations at certain strategic sites, such as
SAC ICBM facilities at Minot ND in November of 1975, which had
its strategic launch capabilities inerted . Similar
neutralization, we understand, occurred in the USSR. While such
an event would understandably generate human military concern,
it is important for such events to be interpreted in a broader
context which is non-anthropocentric. While one view may hold
that this action demonstrated extraterrestrial hostility , it is
more likely that, given the event's non-violent nature, that it
was intended to be a message of great concern over such globally
destructive weapon systems. Unless leadership is adequately
briefed on this subject, the potential for a catastrophic
misinterpretation of extraterrestrial actions and intentions
exists.

- Extraterrestrial concern over space-based military assets. It
is our understanding that the extraterrestrial view of human
military assets being placed in space is very unfavorable and
that in the recent past certain events have taken place which
underscore this ET viewpoint. U.S. Space Command and other
military entities dealing with space or which interface with and
depend upon space-based assets need to be aware of this concern.
It appears that ET concern is based on the increasing
militarization of space, combined with a continued high level of
human warfare and violence and the proliferation of weapons of
mass destruction. There is also reason to believe that covert
USAP programs are targeting ET assets with increasing frequency
and efficacy (see below).

- Multiple credible first-hand military and intelligence program
witnesses have described covert USAP utilization of advanced
weapons systems to track, target and destroy extraterrestrial
spacecraft. Such events have apparently increased in frequency
and accuracy since the 1980s. If true, this constitutes a grave
national and world security crisis about which key leaders have
an urgent need to know. In light of the testimony which we have
heard, simple denials that such events are not occurring or are
somehow justified are not sufficient grounds to dismiss these
reports or take a hands-off approach. Key military and national
security leaders need to fully investigate this matter and
produce a full assessment of the situation for the National
Command Authorities (NCA), the Chairman, Joints Chiefs of Staff
(CJCS), and key congressional leadership.

- Multiple, military and civilian witnesses involved in covert
programs dealing with this subject and having first-hand
personal knowledge have corroborated reports of UFO/ETI related
USAPS' intent to utilize reverse-engineered ET based
technologies to stage (hoax) ET events of a violent nature. The
existence of a very powerful covert USAP which possesses
extraordinarily advanced technologies capable of
materialization/dematerialization, faster-than-light travel,
antigravity propulsion and related systems is in itself a direct
threat to conventional and constitutional military and national
security leadership and control. Such an entity, unless fully
under direct, legal and constitutional chain of command
oversight, and control, has great potential for abuse, deception
and manipulation of traditional governmental leadership. For
example, an important intelligence witness has described the
planned use of ARVs in a false indications and warnings scenario
in which the ARVs would attack conventional military assets to
make it appear that we were being attacked by hostile
extraterrestrial life forms. If military and national security
leaders do not know of such covert human capabilities, they
could be deceived by such a scenario and could then issue orders
for unwarranted and potentially catastrophic counter-measures
against genuine ET assets.

- Sub-electromagnetic, non-linear communications systems of
extraterrestrial origin which interface directly with
consciousness and thought have been reverse-engineered by covert
USAPs and can be used against civilian and military leadership
in False I and W scenarios. Information directly from a foreign
head of state suggests that this has already occurred. Such
non-linear telemetry systems, which bypass linear time/space and
interface directly with mind and thought can be modified to
induce hoaxed but very real experiences in target subjects.
Senior military and civilian national security leaders need to
know about the potential of these systems, thus minimizing the
deceptive value of such systems should they be directed against
them. (Alleged �Alien Abduction' experiences are largely the
result of the misuse of these systems by covert USAPs.)

- NASA, civilian astronomers and other scientists are
increasingly concerned about the possibility of an earth
orbit-crossing asteroid or comet impacting the earth. Teams at
JPL and elsewhere have already detected thousands of such earth
orbit-crossing objects within our solar system. Large impacts in
the past have created what is now the Gulf of Mexico, Hudson Bay
and other geological features on the surface of the earth. Most
scientists agree that it is not a question of �if, but �when',
such an impact will take place. Conventional scientists have
discussed using nuclear weapons and other conventional means to
avert such an impact. However, it is clear that UFO related
USAPS possess technologies which are far more advanced and which
could be brought to bear on this problem. This is especially
true of gravity-altering technologies which could be used to
change the mass effect of such an object and move it off of an
earth intersecting course. Since such an impact could
potentially terminate human civilization as we know it, senior
military and civilian national security leaders should have
knowledge of and access to such UFO USAP related technologies.
Moreover, use of such technologies in space for such a critical
and beneficial purpose may be dependent on the perception by ET
s that such space deployment would be only for peaceful
purposes. We understand that this is not the current perception.

Conclusions:

- Disclosure of the reality of the UFO/ETI subject and
associated technologies would certainly alter many aspects of
life on earth, including geopolitical relations, technology,
economics and the general social order. Military and national
security leaders unaware of the subject cannot adequately
anticipate the far-reaching implications of such a disclosure
and would therefore be unprepared. Since CSETI and others are
actively pursuing such a disclosure in the relatively near
future, it is important that leaders understand these
implications fully and are able to respond to the challenges of
such a disclosure in an orderly manner. Should a sudden,
undeniable extraterrestrial event occur, it is even more
important that military and national security leaders be
informed and are prepared to respond properly to the situation.

- The energy and propulsion technologies associated with
extraterrestrial spacecraft utilize the zero - point field of
energy, do not rely on nuclear or internal combustion engines
and are therefore non-polluting. One of the great �wild cards'
facing the military and national and world security leaders is
the eventual exhaustion of fossil fuels and the concomitant
decay in the earth's ecosystem. With the rapid industrialization
of China, India and much of the third world, the damage to the
earth's ecosystem will only accelerate exponentially, even as
the fuel sources are more rapidly diminished. Currently, we
exist as a terminal technological civilization - a serious long
term security issue indeed. However, the covert USAP responsible
for UFO/ETI matters has already reversed-engineered energy and
propulsion systems which render the internal combustion engine
obsolete. We estimate that this breakthrough occurred between
1954 and 1957. Ben Rich of Lockheed Skunkworks, prior to his
death, confirmed to a CSETI consultant that "we already have the
means to travel among the stars, but these technologies are
locked up in black projects and it would take an act of God to
ever get them out to benefit humanity...". Long term national
security planning necessitates the eventual (and preferably
near-term) release of these technologies for the benefit of
mankind and the preservation of the planet. Certainly national
security and military leaders should understand these
technologies, which will replace the entire global energy and
internal combustion infrastructure. Moreover, they should
anticipate the implications related to the release of such
technologies so that the transition to sustainable energy
systems can be as smooth and peaceful as possible.

These are a few of the national security and military
implications of the UFO/ETI subject - any one of which justifies
a full briefing to leadership on the subject.

Recommendations:

We recommend senior military and national security leaders take
the following actions:

- Receive a thorough briefing on the subject by CSETI leadership
and military/civilian witnesses

- Fully brief CINCS, and develop special ROEs for ETI/UFO
encounters.

- Independently investigate the subject and penetrate USAP
operations related to the subject

- Become fully involved in covert projects related to the
subject to ensure that such projects are adequately supervised
and are under the direct and continuous control of the
constitutional chain of command

- Correct and/or restrain any USAPS's covert misuse of advanced
technologies or weapon systems related to UFOs .

- Attempt peaceful, cooperative engagement of these life forms
and assiduously avoid violent military engagement. CSETI has a
prototype project which was been peacefully engaging ETI for
over 7 years and suggests that national and international
leaders adopt a similar approach


- Carefully consider the deployment of space-based military
assets in light of the above information and avoid actions which
may be viewed as bellicose or hostile by extraterrestrial life
forms.

END

CSETI Points of Contact:

Steven M. Greer, M.D.,
International Director, CSETI
(540) 456-8302;
email: 103275.1472@compuserve.com
CSETI: http://www.cseti.org

**********************

This Position Paper can also be downloaded from CSETI's Website.

Regards

Tony Craddock
Web Administrator
CSETI
http://www.cseti.org








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   Sep > Sep 17

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:17:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:06:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:08:05 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis tacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:34:09 -0400
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:06:51 EDT
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

><snip>

>>With respect to you monster discussion/rebuttal on Roswell:
>>Bravo!

>Before you congratulate yourself and Rudiak too much, you
>wouldn't be the same Bruce who 'authenticated' Ed Walters's
>dubious polaroids to the tune of $20,000, would you?>

>I didn't think so.

>So how about it, Rudiak and Clark, want to go with Walters and
>Maccabee on this one?

>After all, if Bruce is right about Gulf Breeze, how could he be
>wrong about Roswell? Beats me.

>Bravo, indeed!

>Dennis


My Dear (Mr.) Stacy:

Beats you, indeed. Perhaps you deserve a beating. If ever a
message was non-sequitur bovine excrement....cum (Latin for
"with", for those of you with dirty minds) indirect ad hominem
attack.... this is it.

As for "authentication for #20,000" mentioned above, implying a
"quid pro quo", let me point out that I published the results of
my research on the Walters case in the MUFON Symposium
Proceedings. I wrote that paper in April and May of 1988 and
subsequently published more information written in June of 1988
and presented as viewgraphs that were presented at the Symposium
in July. All of this material was presented to the general
public FOR FREE.

And what was this conclusion? That there was no conclusive
evidence of a hoax, but instead a lot of evidence contradicting
the hoax hypothesis.

I realize that a lot of CUFOS partisans, etc., took umbrage at
that....

Anyway, YOU GOT THAT DENNIS? There was no talk of a book until
much later.

The work underlying these results was completed some 6 months
BEFORE there was any book contract. I subsequently wrote a
chapter for which I was paid 20,000 less agents fee of 2000
meaning I actually received $18,000.

Hence you are wrong to insinuate I was paid $20K in return for
authentication.


Bottom line is, after Stanford, Boyd, Smith, Overall.
Salisberry, Hyzer, Black, etc. have had their say, Ed's
sightings and the others in Gulf Breeze survive....





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   Sep > Sep 17

                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:17:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:10:01 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:02:48 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Kerry Ferrand <kferrand@rocketmail.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

>>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:31:07 -0400
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

>>The pic with

>>>"This image depicts an elusive, cylinder-shaped object
>>>which was chased for several minutes by a Russian MIG"

>>>Shows the rear top section of a US made ejection seat,
>>>>(and a few other aircraft which wouldn't give that
>>>type of view)
>>>One of the seat's unique environmental sensor pitot
>>>tubes is prominent in the photo. The footage is
>>from no MiG

>>Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but while working in the
>>press I was amazed to find that the ejection seats used in
>>American Jets were actually built by a British firm that held

<snip>

>You're thinking of the Martin-Baker firm who used to have quite a
>lock on the western market..but starting from the late 70s just
>about every new US type has been fitted with the US designed and
>manufactured (by McDD and now Boeing) ACESII seat. It is the only
>ejection seat with the antenna-like sensor tubes clearly seen in
>the supposed MiG footage (which looks like it was shot from the
>back seat of a F-16B or D-not the visibility-challenged little
>cockpit of the single seat MiG-21 aircraft they show in their
>graphics)

>The pictures are either mislabeled or a hoax

Back in the good old/bad old days the Russians would "steal" US
or western world generated information and feed it back to as
Russian, or they would use western generated information as a
basis for discussion without revealing actual Soviet
information. This turned up in military material regularly,
where the Soviets would discuss USA military activities and
present the Soviets as only peace- loving people.

Anyway, I am aware of a specific example of a Soviet "hoax" on
the American people.

In the winter or spring of 1969, I believe, while I was at
American University at Washington, DC.,. an international "fair"
or exposition was held. Many of the embassies most of which are
within a few miles of American University) had displays. The
Russian embassy was also there with a display related to Soviet
achievements in space. Their largest exhibit was "their" moon
lander. For those of you less than 40 years old, the '60's was
the tme of the space race.... who could get to the moon first.
After our astronauts orbited the moon in Dec\ 1968, while the
Russians failed to achieve a comparable result, it became
apparent who was going to get there first.

So, as I was walking around looking at all the good stuff I
spotted te Russian exhibit with it's "moon lander." It had a
definitely recognizable appearance, despite the large letters
USSR across its surface and other Soviet markings.

Then it came to me: The Russians had made a model of the US moon
lander (which was an distinctively ugly, ungodly looking
device!) and had labelled it "Soviet Moon Lander."

I suppose that most of the young people going through the
exhibit didn't realize the fake, even though our moon lander had
been shown on TV and discussed in magazines, etc.

Anyway, the bottom line is, I wouldn't put it past them to take
an American UFO sighting event and call it theirs. (After all,
they DID invent baseball..... didn't they?)






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 17

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 18:57:49 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:50:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:08:05 -0500 (CDT)
>Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:37:00 -0400
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:34:09 -0400
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:06:51 EDT
>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

><snip>

>>With respect to you monster discussion/rebuttal on Roswell:
>>Bravo!

>Before you congratulate yourself and Rudiak too much, you
>wouldn't be the same Bruce who 'authenticated' Ed Walters's
>dubious polaroids to the tune of $20,000, would you?

I'm sure Dennis Stacy turns all his earnings from writing about
UFOs over to charity, right Dennis?

>I didn't think so.

>So how about it, Rudiak and Clark, want to go with Walters and
>Maccabee on this one?

>After all, if Bruce is right about Gulf Breeze, how could he be
>wrong about Roswell? Beats me.

>Bravo, indeed!

Sounds like a lot of things beat Dennis Stacy. When challenged to
come up with actual factual material to back up his Roswell
rantings and ravings, he can't produce. That's his cue line to
change the subject.

All I see here from DS is a bunch of sour grapes and, of course,
more SPIT (uncopyrighted acronynm for Stacy Patented Irrational
Tangent).

David Rudiak






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   Sep > Sep 17

                       Exploring The Moon's Atmosphere

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:12:55 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:21:01 -0400
Subject: Exploring The Moon's Atmosphere

Source: AP via Discovery Channel News

http://www.discovery.com/news/briefs/brief2.html

Stig

*******


Taking in Moon's Atmosphere

As most eyes are focused on the distant reaches of outer space, a
group of scientists is turning its attention closer to home,
harnessing satellite technology to try and figure out what the
moon's atmosphere is made of.

You might say: It doesn't have one!

But Urs A. Mall of the Max Planck Institute for Aeronomy in
Katlenburg-Lindau, Germany, says, "Although many people think of
the moon as an object which has no atmosphere, it is surrounded
by a tenuous envelope of gas atoms."

So far Mall and his team have identified very small amounts of
oxygen, silicon and aluminum, they report in a paper scheduled
for publication in Geophysical Research Letters.

One thing the team hasn't found in the moon's atmosphere so far
is nitrogen, the gas that makes up more than three-quarters of
the Earth's atmosphere. But that doesn't mean there never was
any.

"One has to keep in mind that what the moon originally had as an
atmosphere was lost early in its history. The gravitational field
of the moon is so weak that it cannot hold most of what may have
been there at the beginning," Mall says.

Mario Acuna, a specialist in solar-terrestrial physics at NASA,
says, "Of course this atmosphere is very tenuous. We want to know
what the source is of these gases we find on the moon."

Possibilities include vaporization of rocks caused by meteor
impacts, moonquakes releasing gases from beneath the surface and
heat-generated gases resulting from the uneven solar heating of
the moon as it rotates over a month, Acuna says.

Lunar explorations during the late 1960s and early 1970s
identified argon and helium atoms just above the lunar surface.
And Earth-based observations have since added sodium and
potassium to the list.

But those four elements constitute only about 10 percent of the
density of the moon's atmosphere. The team of German and American
researchers expect to identify more constituents in November,
when the WIND spacecraft -- designed to measure the solar wind
emitted from the sun -- will spend time near the moon. The
spacecraft carries a special instrument that can identify ions,
forms of elements that have gained an electric charge.

"Many people tend to underestimate what we can learn by further
investigating the moon, a place so close to home," Mall says.


Associated Press, Copyright 1998







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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:09:59 PDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:18:49 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:26:32 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

>From: James Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 18:48:23 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

>In a message dated 9/15/98 5:41:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>updates@globalserve.net writes:

>>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:40:07 -0400
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

>>>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:21:38 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: Soviet UFO Crash - TNT KGB files

>>The impression that I got was that the "craft" had jammed itself
>>into the ground, and had not actually broken into two pieces,
>>but I could be wrong. From the computer simulation of the crash
>>I would think that the stress of the crash would have blasted it
>>into a million small pieces, but its strength allowed it to
>>survive (more or less) intact. However, I agree that the size
>>seemed rather small and I'd like to see an analysis of the
>>symbols that were shown on it.

>The computer simulation clearly (at least to me) showed that the
>craft broke up on the several impacts, leaving only that portion
>showing. As a result, it was not buried in the earth, merely
>resting on the portion remaining.

>Jim

Jim & List,

It seems highly improbable to me that a craft designed for
inter-planetary & and atmospheric travel would simply snap in
half, like a scored tablet, across its diameter and show
absolutely no other shell damage. To top it of it just happens to
come to rest on the broken edge - what are the chances that a
round tablet broken in half will stand on its broken edge when
dropped?

It is just way too convenient!

For me from this distance the TNT show is dynamite  :-)

Regards,

Leanne Martin
Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia






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   Sep > Sep 17

              Discovery Of Water Would Open Moon To Development

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:03:17 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:17:13 -0400
Subject: Discovery Of Water Would Open Moon To Development


Source: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

http://www.post-gazette.com:80/healthscience/19980914luna2.asp

Stig

*******

Discovery of water would open moon to development

Monday, September 14, 1998

By Byron Spice. Science Editor, Post-Gazette

*

Alan Binder would have liked to have been an Apollo astronaut
and left his bootprint in the lunar dust. At age 58, the former
Lockheed engineer isn't any closer to becoming an astronaut, but
he still is intent on leaving his imprint on the moon.

The chief scientist for the Lunar Prospector spacecraft now
orbiting the moon, Binder hopes in 10 years to begin building a
lunar colony where he can hang the shingle for his Lunar
Research Institute, which is based, for now, in Gilroy, Calif.

The chances of that happening, as Binder sees it, increased
significantly earlier this month when he reported in the journal
Science that Prospector had found evidence of water ice on the
moon -- perhaps 10 billion gallons buried at its north and south
poles.

"I believe man's destiny is to move into space," said Binder,
formerly a principal investigator for the Viking Mars Lander
program. "The moon is key to that because it has resources we
can use."

Lunar ice could be a source not only of water to sustain human
life or support extraterrestrial agriculture, but also of rocket
fuel -- hydrogen and oxygen -- for interplanetary travel. Mining
ice on the moon, rather than launching water from Earth, could
cut costs by a factor of 100, Binder maintained.

If humans are to return to the moon, it won't be on a National
Aeronautics and Space Administration mission. NASA's sights are
set on Mars and beyond, Binder said, leaving the moon open for
private exploration and commercial development, much as
low-Earth orbit and geosynchronous orbit now are used by the
multibillion-dollar satellite industry.

Binder is part of a still-small band of space entrepreneurs who
hope to spur exploration of the solar system by making a buck.

"None of us are in this business to get rich," Binder said. But
he's convinced that the moon and planets will be explored only
if it can be made commercially feasible. "This is just the way
the world works."

Earlier this year, Binder agreed to be chief scientist for
Icebreaker, a $22 million mission proposed by William "Red"
Whittaker, director of Carnegie Mellon's Field Robotics Center,
to look inside lunar craters for the ice that Lunar Prospector
suggests is there.

Icebreaker would be a NASA-funded scientific project that would
be part of LunaQuest, a $100 million, commercial mission to land
a robot called Polaris at the moon's north pole in July 2002.
LunaCorp of Arlington, Va., is planning and raising money for
the mission, which would feature a robot designed by Whittaker
and his team. Last week, Binder, Whittaker and David Gump,
LunaCorp president, met here to discuss details of the mission.

But not everyone is so optimistic about commercial prospects on
the moon.

"I'd be thrilled to see private exploration of the moon, but I
don't expect to see it," said Robert L. Park, a spokesman and
space policy expert for the American Physical Society. He thinks
talk of setting up a colony on the moon is preposterous.

The energy and machinery necessary to extract water from buried
lunar ice would make the water prohibitively expensive, Park
said, arguing it would still be cheaper to launch water from the
Earth to the moon. And the idea of making rocket fuel from water
is an even wilder idea, he contended.

"Water is the end product of combustion, not the start," he
said. Breaking water down into hydrogen and oxygen would require
humongous amounts of power, perhaps from a nuclear reactor.
Launching a reactor to the moon is relatively safe, he admitted,
but likely would not be seen that way by the general public.

"I betcha NASA goes (to the moon) before a private group does,"
he added.

It's a high-risk venture, no question about it, Binder said.
Large sums of money will be involved and, though he is convinced
that exploration and development has to be made profitable, no
one can yet be sure how to make that profit.

One thing that has to happen is to bring costs down, Binder
said. Lunar Prospector, which he began working on 10 years ago,
will cost $63 million. "If this were a NASA mission," he
contended, "it would have been half a billion dollars."

Launched in January, Prospector is orbiting the moon at an
altitude of about 60 miles. It's in a stable polar orbit but the
moon revolves slowly beneath it. "Every two weeks, I've seen
(via Prospector) every bit of the moon.

It will take a year of such observations to pick up the
gravitational and magnetic information Binder seeks for mapping
the surface of the moon, which is the size of South and North
America combined.

An instrument aboard also is analyzing neutrons, which provide
evidence of the existence of hydrogen, from which Binder infers
the presence of water.

Next January, Prospector will dip down to an 18-mile altitude
and do additional mapping for another six months, at which point
NASA funding runs out.

Binder said several more such mapping missions would be helpful,
as would missions to return samples and to set up seismic
monitors.

Seismic arrays set up by Apollo astronauts, he noted, recorded
moon quakes up to magnitude 4 on the Richter scale. That's not
huge, but quakes on the moon can last up to an hour. More
extensive monitoring is necessary to determine if larger quakes
-- likely the result of shrinking that occurs as the moon's core
continues to cool -- might occur, Binder said.

"If you get a magnitude 6 or 7 quake, it would be devastating,"
for a moon base, he explained.

Ultimately, a robotic mission, such as Icebreaker, will be
necessary to prove that water ice exists. "You don't build
billions of dollars of lunar base next to a dry hole," Binder
said.

Whittaker said Icebreaker would drill at least three feet into
the frozen lunar soil. Data from Lunar Prospector suggests the
ice is buried at least a foot beneath the surface. How deep the
ice itself may be is unknown.

Comets, which are 90 percent water, are the most likely source
of the lunar ice.

"The idea of sending robots to explore is just wonderful," said
Park, a physicist at the University of Maryland. "That's how we
should have done moon exploration in the first place."

LunaCorp's Gump said he expects that a number of companies,
including the giant aerospace firms, may become interested in
the moon if LunaCorp and others succeed.

U.S., European and Japanese space agencies are among the obvious
clients for a lunar base, as are astronomers who would like to
use the far side of the moon as a site for telescopes. Some
scientists have suggested mining the lunar soil for helium-3, an
isotope that is rare on Earth, but that may someday make
controlled nuclear fusion reactors feasible.

Binder said lunar tourism is another possibility for adventurers
with the wherewithal to plunk down $100 million for a vacation.

"First," Gump said, "we have to prove we can do it (conduct a
private lunar mission) and that we can do it for a price we
promise."

The technological leap necessary for man to return to the moon
in the next 10 years is far less than the one NASA faced in
1961, when President Kennedy set a moon landing by the end of
that decade as a goal, Binder said.

He's in a hurry to get on with things, knowing it might take 10
years for private interests to send humans to the moon. He's not
getting any younger, but that doesn't mean he's given up his
dream of going there himself.


"If John Glenn can go into space at age 77, then I can get up
there at 67."







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   Sep > Sep 17

                 Strange Object In Schalksrust, South Africa

From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:11:00 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 05:42:54 -0400
Subject: Strange Object In Schalksrust, South Africa


Source: alt.ufo.reports, September 15.

Stig

*******

Strange object

Author:J-P de Villiers =BF
Email: jpe@lantic.co.za
Date: 1998/09/15
Forum: alt.ufo.reports

This morning at 03.32 I were reducing speed with my train
through Schalksrust station. That is near Lydenburg in South
Africa. Next to the station is a flat field about 3 sq km. A
strange orange/yellowish light was moving upwards and downwards
in the middle of the field at a very fast speed. It could not
have been a very large object, say about the size of a soccer
ball or a little bigger. It moved upwards at great speed say
about 60 feet or so and then moved back to about ground level
and then up again, and after about a minute it just vanished.

Anybody seen something like that?

Mail me at

jpe@lantic.co.za

JP de Villiers
Lydenburg
South Africa





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   Sep > Sep 17

                            ELFIS ISSUE 6 part 2

From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis@ccsi.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:50:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 05:22:42 -0400
Subject: ELFIS ISSUE 6 part 2

Hello again,

Welcome to the Second Installment of E.L.F. INFESTED SPACES
Journal of Possible Paradigms - Issue 6, SUMMER 1998. As I
barely begin to catch up on lost time (due to that fried
motherboard) I am eager to take full advantage of the
coincidence of today's morphic resonances: Diez y seis
(Independance) and today as the beginning of my mini-sabbatical
from my day job. [Howdy TBPers and Bookie Bums!] This weeks
address installment follows:

ELFIS #6 - 9/16/98 Installment

Main Table Of Contents for Issue 6
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/A6.html

Introduction (what you just read above)
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6intro2.htm

Current News (about our favorite EMAILING LISTS)
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/A6.html#news

Letters Forum: The Press & The President by Jay Bremyer
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6letrsJB.htm

Mr. Baggin's Corner (WARNING: Mind Your Mind)
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL0/mrbagginscorner/mrbbcrnr.htm

Home Alone with Close Encounters by Jeffery Lewis concludes
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6homalonCE3K2.htm

SMiles EHE AutoBiography with premonitory dreams/visions
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/smlEHE.htm

DreamTime NOW!
Reality Check by Jay Bremyer
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6DT.htm

Oneironomicon of SMiles with false awakening & sleep paralysis
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/SMLOL/smlDT.htm

MORE TO COME THROUGH-OUT THE NEXT WEEK!

--

        Stephen MILES Lewis

Writer, Designer, Producer, Editor
        & INFORMATIONALIST

E.L.F. INFESTED SPACES -
Journal of Possible Paradigms

mailto:elfis@ccsi.com

        ELFIS OnLine :
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin

        ELFIS Archive :
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL0/ELFOLARC.html

        ELFIS Links :
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/links/ELFLinks.htm






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   Sep > Sep 17

                        'Landing' In Tanrow, Poland?

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:04:18 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 05:40:58 -0400
Subject: 'Landing' In Tanrow, Poland?


Source: alt.ufo.reports, September 16.

Stig

*******

Landing in Tanrow, Poland

Author: unknown
Email: none@none.com
Date: 1998/09/16
Forum: alt.ufo.reports

City Janitor and one tourist from Sweden witnessed UFO landing
on the city square in 4 o'clock in the morning. According to
witnessess there was no noise or lights seen. As the city
janitor pan Jozef was trying to approach the craft, he was
repelled by the invisible force preventing him from approaching
any closer!

The Swedish tourist Irmgard fainted and had to be taken to the
hospital.






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   Sep > Sep 17

                     UFO In New Hampshire, US, Last Week

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:23:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 05:45:39 -0400
Subject: UFO In New Hampshire, US, Last Week


Dear list,

I have a few details from a sighting report I took today. I was
unable to get more due to time constraints.

Location of sighting: Londonderry NH.

Date: 10th or 11th of Sept. (witness not sure)

Time: Approx 11:30 PM.

The witness (Dan H.) stated that while driving north on Mammoth
Rd. on his way home from work, he spotted a triangular shaped
pattern of three bright white lights low over the trees ahead of
his car. At first he thought a plane was attempting to land,
then realized that it was too low and facing in the wrong
direction for the local landing pattern. He described the lights
as consisting of two higher lights and one single light down
lower and closer, giving the object the appearance of tilting
down in the "front". The object then suddenly "jumped" over to
the left without turning and stopped again. The witness
described this motion with a quick sweep of his hand, implying
that it was nearly instantaneous. After this he lost sight of
the object behind some trees. The duration of the sighting was
less than a minute. The witness then proceeded home, only about
five minutes away. He ran excitedly into a neighbor's apartment
to describe what he had seen. The neighbor happens to be a
mutual friend who knows of my interest in UFOs, and called me to
let me know.

My notes:

I live only a short distance from the location of the sighting,
and an even shorter distance from this man's home, perhaps a 30
second drive. Manchester Airport is five miles to the north, and
we live directly under the centerline for their ILS approach
path. The big jets turn their final approaches directly overhead
all night long, so the locals are used to seeing the jets all
lit up in various degrees of bank as they set up for their
approaches. The witness described the object as "much lower" and
"facing the wrong way" as compared what he is accustomed to
seeing.  This seems to indicate that it wasn't part of normal
air traffic. In addition, the sudden, rapid movement of the
object seems to rule out conventional aircraft.

This is the only list I am posting this report to. Please
distribute freely.

Greg






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   Sep > Sep 17

                            ELFIS ISSUE 6 part 1

From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis@ccsi.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:47:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 05:20:28 -0400
Subject: ELFIS ISSUE 6 part 1


Welcome to the Summer 1998
Issue of ELFIS On-Line

E.L.F. INFESTED SPACES
Journal of Possible Paradigms

"I am your host, Mr. Rork...
Welcome to Fantasy Island!"

Finally, ELFIS SIX is ready. After all the typical life
struggles as well as a fried motherboard I am now ready to
launch the new issue.

This issue marks the first official WEEKLY EMAIL UPDATE format
for ELFIS On-Line Journal of Possible Paradigms.

After much consideration I have decided to adopt the weekly
email update approach to the posting of NEW and ARCHIVE
materials to the site/issue. In this way I can better handle the
work load while providing timely newsworthy updates, current
research writings, and the continued examination and
digitization of my accrued AUSTIN ANOMALY ARCHIVES.

This issue features the works of several past ELFIS writers
including John Carter, Harv Howard, Mr. Baggins (who now has an
on-going column/corner), Jeffery Lewis and others.

We will also be introducing you to some new writers including in
this installment, Jay Bremyer.

Well? What are you waiting around for? I'm not gonna blather on
anymore about this issue . . .

. . . UNTIL NEXT WEEK!

In the meantime, here R the handy dandy links to:

ELFIS #6 - 9/8/98 Installment

Main Table Of Contents for Issue 6
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/A6.html

Introduction (what you just read above)
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6intro1.htm

Current News (about our favorite Excluded Middlers)
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/A6.html#news

Unidentified Aircraft over Kansas? by Jay Bremyer
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6brmyrufo.htm

Mr. Baggin's Corner (WARNING: Mind Your Mind)
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL0/mrbagginscorner/mrbbcrnr.htm

Home Alone with Close Encounters by Jeffery Lewis DreamTime
article
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6homalonCE3K.htm

John Carter reviews Pentaradial Press Books 'Cosmic Suicide: The
Tragedy and Transcendence of Heaven's Gate' Rodney Perkins and
Forrest Jackson.=A0

http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6pentaprsrev.htm#hevnsgate

and

Three Myths of Gods, Devils and Beasts=A0
The Rhipidon Society
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6pentaprsrev.htm#3myths

ELFIS Cargo CULTure Gallery Opens! (First Exhibit)
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/images/gallery/gallerymain.htm

History of the Austin UFO Abductee/Experiencer Support Group
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/aaarchives/AUFOSG/AUFOSG.htm

Explore the ELFIS ARCHIVES: Back Issues, Austin Anomaly
Archives, & BOOKS
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL0/ELFOLARC.html
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/aaarchives/austanomarch.htm
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/aaarchives/arcbklst.htm

Recent Addition to the Archive
R & D Magazine article on evidential parapsychology
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6RnDmagpara.htm
--

        Stephen MILES Lewis

Writer, Designer, Producer, Editor
        & INFORMATIONALIST

E.L.F. INFESTED SPACES -
Journal of Possible Paradigms

mailto:elfis@ccsi.com

        ELFIS OnLine :
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin

        ELFIS Archive :
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL0/ELFOLARC.html

        ELFIS Links :
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/links/ELFLinks.htm






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   Sep > Sep 17

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:09:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 05:01:47 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 11:19:16 -0700
>From: Greg Long <greglong@PACIFICHARBOR.COM>
>Subject: Death of Roswell
>To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

>The Roswell case is now, in my mind, dead.

>What was Roswell all about? It was the case to end all cases. It was
>similar to those reports we used to get up through the 1980s--but no
>more--that there would soon be "revelations" regarding UFOs from the US
>Government.

<snip>

>>Above all, ALL of Schmitt and Randle's witnesses offer no
>>concrete evidence of any crash at Roswell. One would think that
>>perhaps photographs of the crashed saucer, even photos of bits
>>and pieces of metal strewn on the ground, would be in their
>>possession. Perhaps, one photo would exist showing the military
>>cordoning off the crash site. Nothing. Perhaps there would be
>>documents, perhaps even one, demonstrating that something was
>>trucked from Roswell, then to Fort Worth, then to
>>Wright-Patterson--at least one document that was reliable. None.

I think Greg Long has this ass backwards. A flying saucer crash
would be super highly classified. [Note to the witless: I'm
using a figure of speech] Why would you expect to find photos
and documents released to the public? How would Randle or
Schmitt or anyone else get their hands on them?

Now a balloon crash and some screw-up at the base -- that is
something we should be able to find a few documents on. Let's
see. Project Mogul must have kept records on the trajectory,
configuration, and eventual crash site of this alleged "Roswell
balloon," just as they kept records on almost all of their
Flights. Well no, actually. How about some written record of
Mogul being informed of Roswell base recovering one of their
balloons? No again.

Well then, Roswell base must have written up a report or two or
three about their big screw-up. Washington would have demanded
it. Even Gen. Vandenberg had his busy schedule interrupted at
the Pentagon. So these reports should exist, right? No again.

Roswell base was confused by the Mogul and thought it was a
flying saucer (or so the debunkers claim). Wouldn't a photo or
two have been taken at Roswell of this historic find or out on
the debris field while they were still in their delusional
state? Apparently not.

Col. Blanchard spoke to Gen. Ramey in Fort Worth by phone. Other
phone calls were made between Washington and Roswell. Where are
the phone records? The GAO attempted to find these, but instead
learned that the outgoing phone logs from Roswell base for this
period had been destroyed without authorization nearly 50 years
ago. Another dead end.

Col. Blanchard, who eventually became a 4-star general and
Deputy Chief of the USAF, has his personal and official papers
(including diaries, notebooks, and appointment books) stored at
Maxwell AFB, but only for 1948 and afterward. For some reason,
his papers for when he was at Roswell aren't there. Many of the
rest of his documents are still restricted by security
classifications.

Jesse Marcel, the head of Roswell intelligence and supposedly
the chief screw- up in this affair, should have had something in
his record afterwards that reflected his incompetence and the
expected wrath of his superiors. Nope. (Instead he drew high
praise from Col. Blanchard and Gen. Ramey, received his highest
military rating ever from Blanchard, got a promotion, and got
assignments with top secret technical projects afterwards,
including Chief of a foreign technology air intelligence
division. And that CAN be documented.)

Definitely there was one flight from Roswell to Fort Worth and
another to Wright Field. Surely military flight records exist.
Nope.

(And for Greg Long's information, there IS other documentation
to these flights, in the form of Pentagon/Fort Worth press
releases at the time plus a surviving FBI telegram. Wright Field
also confirmed that debris was being shipped there when
contacted by reporters, as did Gen. Ramey in Fort Worth.)

The FBI was told that that an analysis would be done on the
debris at Wright Field, and their Cincinnati field office would
be informed of the results. The GAO couldn't find that either.
Nor could they find any documents relating to the incident from
those in command at Wright Field as to the dispensation of the
debris. Where are those?

However, six weeks later a disc made of old radio parts was also
taken to Wright Field for analysis. Despite being a patently
obvious hoax disc, a complete workup was still done by the
electronics and materials laboratories there. A report was
dutifully written up describing the radio parts and where they
came from and sent to Air Intelligence Hdqtrs in Washington.
That report still exists. You would think the Roswell "Mogul
disc," considering all the ruckus it kicked up, would have
gotten at least similar treatment, and a report would have been
written saying it was nothing but a bunch of tinfoil, balsa
wood, neoprene rubber, Scotch tape, etc. So tell us Greg, where
is that report?

Have I beaten this horse to death yet? If this was a Mogul
crash, where oh where are those mundane pieces of documentation
that would clearly say as much? The onus is really on the Mogul
supporters to produce such documentation, since that is
something that wouldn't be hidden away, as would documents on a
flying saucer crash. But not even the GAO or Air Force
investigators, despite their investigative powers to nose
through documents you or I would not have access to, could come
up with a single piece of paper
specifying "Mogul crash." Curious.

>And yet, proof exists of Project Mogul.

Sorry, but proof exists of lots of other things happening in
1947 as well, including other military projects in New Mexico,
Queen Elizabeth getting engaged, and Al Gore being born. That's
not proof of cause and effect.

>Proof exists of certain Mogul launches.

Well actually, proof does NOT exist that the alleged Mogul had
anything to do with the Roswell crash. There isn't even any
documentation that the alleged guilty Mogul carried radar
reflectors, supposedly the source of all that confusing foil,
balsa wood, and Scotch tape that so stumped the fools at Roswell
base. In fact, documentation shows that only one of these early
Moguls was ever tracked by radar, and its fate is well known. So
it all boils down to the memory of one witness, yes one of those
dispicable, unreliable witness, and his ancient memory that the
guilty Mogul did in fact carry radar reflectors and did head off
in the direction of Brazel's ranch. But there isn't a single
piece of documentation to "prove" this.

Interestingly enough there is one document that suggests Mogul
had nothing to do with any of this. Two years later, Project
Grudge requested Mogul Project Officer Col. Trakowski to check
out whether Moguls could account for any of the flying saucer
reports they were studying, which included a few in New Mexico
as well. Trakowski's response, included in the final Grudge
Report, stated that NONE of these early 1947 Moguls correlated
with any of the sightings, being in the wrong place or launched
at the wrong time.

But that wasn't the story fed the public in 1947. The day after
the crashed disk press release, a phony Mogul launch was staged
at Alamogordo by a counter-intelligence team (not regular Mogul
people who weren't there). They told the press that the balloon
launches undoubtably accounted for ALL the flying saucer
sightings in the area. Trakowski's report to Grudge, however,
indicates that was a big lie.

Although Grudge wasn't asking about the Roswell incident, you
would think Trakowski might have at least added a footnote to
the effect that although their balloons didn't account for any
sightings, one of their crashed balloons was briefly mistaken
for a crashed disk, if that is in fact what happened. But such a
statement was not made. Too bad for Mogul advocates.

> Odd. They rose on air currents north, toward Roswell.

Uhhh, has this man ever looked at a map or checked where these
balloons actually went? To begin with, Roswell is ENE of
Alamogordo, not north. Sheesh!  Brazel's place was NNE of
Alamogordo, and about 70 miles NW of Roswell.

As to the fate of the many known balloons, there is a fair
amount of data in the old Mogul technical summaries buried in
the Attachments to the USAF Roswell report . Almost none of the
Moguls passed anywhere near Brazel's place. The wind currents
were all wrong. Instead, prevailing winds almost universally
carried these balloons eastward or southward, not northward (as
Greg Long wrote), with only a few exceptions. In fact, out of 52
balloons whose trajectories and/or crash sites I found listed in
the collective Mogul summaries, maybe 2 or 3 (I say maybe,
because the actual trajectories are uncertain on two of these
flights), passed anywhere near Brazel's ranch. By "anywhere
near" I mean within about 20 or 30 miles of the place on a
northerly or northeasterly trajectory.

While this obviously does not absolutely preclude a fluke flight
from landing at the Foster Ranch, it greatly lowers the odds,
which are _at best_ maybe 5% or so. But from the erroneous
wording of Mr. Young's as to the actual flight paths of these
balloons, it would sound like these flights were constantly
passing very close to Brazel's place, and, of course, what's the
big surprise if one of these flights just happened to drop down
there? That was simply not the case. If Brazel's ranch had been
truly downwind of the launch area, then this would be a point
well taken. But it wasn't. It was well off the beaten path.

>One vanished. Strange, could it have crashed near Roswell?

Brazel's ranch wasn't on the general flight path of the Moguls.
Therefore it would indeed have been "strange" for one of the
balloons to crash there.  In scientific papers, researchers
generally hope to demonstrate some effect to a minimal 95%
confidence level, if not better. However with Roswell, we have
just the opposite. We can say with about a 95% level of
confidence that the balloons would NOT have passed in the
general vicinity of the Foster Ranch. Again, there is that 5%
chance or so of the random, chance flight, passing nearby (i.e.,
within 20 or 30 miles), but such low odds do not inspire a lot
of confidence in the Mogul hypothesis.

>Odd it was that Mac Brazel found balsa wood

Well, actually, Brazel in his Roswell Daily Record interview
referred to them simply as "sticks." Balsa was never mentioned,
though it would have been easily recognizable. Brazel never
mentioned "balsa" in private either. Instead his neighbors the
Proctors were shown a small piece of the woodlike material which
couldn't be cut with a knife or burned (according to Loretta
Proctor).

> and dark-gray neo-prene material. Strange.

"Smoky grey" "rubber strips" which he said he rolled into a
bundle. Unfortunately, if the "neoprene" had actually lain out
in the hot sun for a month (Brazel said he recovered it July 4,
exactly one month of your alleged Mogul crash), the material
would no longer have resembled rubber nor had any elasticity
left. After two or three weeks, the sunlight reduced the
neoprene balloons to a brittle, ashlike state, according to
Mogul engineer Charles Moore. So "strange" indeed that his
rubber description didn't match what one would expect for some
month-old balloons.

Furthermore in Fort Worth, where those infamous pictures were
taken, the balloon material was referred to repeatedly as a
singular weather balloon, not a multi-balloon type device. The
material in the photos appears to be relatively intact, like a
deflated, still elastic balloon lying in a heap. Again it
appears to be a poor match for Brazel's "rubber strips" or
balloons lying in the hot sun for a month.

Brazel never mentioned any smell associated with any of the
debris. Nor did any eyewitness who had close, extensive contact
with the debris. Nobody mentioned any smell at all, although
decaying neoprene is supposed to be quite pungent and acrid .
But suddenly in Fort Worth, the photographer took immediate note
of the very smelly debris, but only AFTER Jesse Marcel and Col.
Dubose stated Gen. Ramey swapped in a cover story weather
balloon. Strange.

Oh yes, Brazel finished his interview stating, "I am sure what I
found was not any weather observation balloon," and that what he
found did not in any way resemble the other two weather balloons
he had previously found on his ranch. But if he found a bunch of
neoprene balloons, why didn't they resemble "in any way" the
neoprene rubber he must have found with those other two weather
balloons? Strange.

> There were markings on wood.

He never referred to anything being made on "wood." He said
there were "letters on some of the parts," but never specified.
And there was mention of the infamous "flower tape." In private,
however, Brazel stated that there were markings on some of the
sticks, which he called "figures" (according to his son, Bill
Brazel). There was no mention of flower patterns, and Bill
Brazel said his father also used the term "figures" to refer to
Indian petroglyphs. He thought that's what is father meant --
the markings were
similar to petroglyphs.

>>The material looked like a flimsy weather balloon, or some
>>type of balloon material.

Mr. Long, of course, left out the part at the end where Brazel
denied finding anything that resembled either of the other two
weather balloons he had previousy found. This was after he had
just dutifly gone through the process of describing the remains
of a balloon and even offering speculation as to how big the
balloon must have been (12 feet said Brazel -- how did he come
up with that from a collection of "rubber strips?").

So what gives here? You can't understand the Brazel interview
without understanding the circumstances under which it was
given. Brazel spoke several hours after Gen. Ramey began putting
out a weather balloon story in Fort Worth. There are about a
dozen witnesses to Brazel being in military custody during
various parts of the events. There are some friends who saw him
being marched here or there surrounded by military people and
all the time pretending not to notice them. There are three
reporters who have stated Brazel was in custody, two at his
interview at the Roswell Daily Record, the other (Frank Joyce)
stating that Brazel told him personally that he had been
coerced. The base Provost Marshall, William Easley admitted they
held Brazel at the base. Brazel's son Bill said they kept him
there for a week AFTER all the ruckus had died down before
returning him. His neighbors reported Brazel complained bitterly
afterwards of his treatment, saying that he had been "thrown in
jail" and repeatedly interrogated.

If you placed that many people up on a witness stand, every one
of them stating that a principle witness had possibly been
coerced, that witness' testimony would be considered tainted and
would likely be tossed. Or a mistrial would be declared. Yet
that is exactly the situation we have with Brazel and his
statements to the RDR.

Why was the military so damn afraid of this sheep rancher? We
are supposed to believe this was all over nondescript remains of
balsa wood, tinfoil, and rubber balloon material. Well even a
Russian spy couldn't have made heads of tails of it. Mogul
people today say they didn't care if civilians found the stuff
since nothing could be deduced from it. So why was the military
so freaked and heavy-handed with this rancher? Sometimes actions
speak louder than words.

>But no, this was an advanced alien alloy. In fact, material was
>found that,when folded in the hand, miraculously folded back
>into its original shape!

There are multiple witnesses to this property, several military
and several civilian. Gen. Exon, though not a first-hand
witness, likewise stated he was told that some of the Roswell
thin metal material behaved in this fashion.

Bill Brazel and Jesse Marcel were the first witnesses to
describe this property, about 20 years ago, both interviewed
separately. Neither knew the other. They also agreed quite well
on numerous other points, such as the unusual physical
properties of the wood-like material, the general size and shape
of the debris field, that Brazel Sr. described an explosion, and
that he first found the debris just a few days before reporting
it. What would be truly miraculous would be two primary
witnesses independently making up stories that agreed so well
with one another.

 More witnesses to the memory metal were discovered later. Mac
Brazel's neighbor, Loretta Proctor, said Brazel also described
this property to her husband and herself just before the
military grabbed him. Floyd Proctor said the usually quiet
Brazel was highly excited by what he found because the material
was so strange, but didn't go into details. It's rather hard to
imagine even a sheep rancher getting worked up over tinfoil,
Scotch tape, and balsa wood.

Another thing I consider "miraculous" is that so many people
would describe such a property when the existence of the class
of "memory metals" would have been generally unknown. Now we
commonly have eyeglass frames made of Nitinol, but that wasn't
the case 20 years ago or even 10 years ago. And an extreme
memory-metal like Nitinol wasn't around in 1947 (extreme meaning
it has a very pronounced shape-memory effect, unlike earlier
memory alloys in which the effect was very weak.)

>Incredible revelations! A balsa wood spaceship.

Now off to the usual debunking rank. Witnesses such as Marcel,
Brazel Jr., and Proctor all independently stated that the
wood-like material they examined superficiously resembled balsa
wood in color and lightness, but that's where the resemblence
ended. It was exceptionally hard, resisting the attacks of
knives, and showed no soft, pithy core in broken cross-section.
It would not burn, smoke, or char in a flame. It couldn't be
broken by hand, though it was slightly flexible. It lacked a
wood grain. These aren't the descriptions of the balsa wood
which I used to make paper kites and airplanes as a kid.
However, it might the description of an excellent material with
which to build the framework of a very high-performance flying
craft -- lightweight but exceptionally strong and
heat-resistant. What's so strange about that?

What's remarkable is that exotic materials such as extremely
strong, high heat-resistance memory foils, and exceptionally
hard, lightweight materials are now believed to be theoretically
possible by many materials scientists. This would require an
advanced technology to assemble materials in an absolutely
precise manner at the atomic level, eliminating structural
defects inherent in our current means of manufacturing metal
alloys and other materials. Using computer modeling, these
so-called nanotechnologists have described such things as
diamond-titanium foils of tremendous strength and heat
resistance, ideal stuff to make the skin of a spacecraft from.
There currently exists a laminate consisting of silicon-carbide
fabric sandwiched and fused between two outer layers of titanium
foil. It is remarkably tear- resistant and heat resistant. It is
being considered as a possible outer skin to future generations
of space shuttles. This material is only a few years old, hardly
the fodder of stories first told 20 years ago. Superstrong
carbon fibers, called carbon nanotubules, may be up to 100 times
stronger than steel, lightweight, and great stuff to make an
advanced flying craft from. They were synthesized in
laboratories only about a half dozen years ago.

The point is, I don't see how people could have dreamed up these
uniform descriptions of supermaterials 20 or even 10 years ago.
At first these descriptions seemed like science fiction, maybe
even impossible. That's all changed due to the fledging science
of nanotechnology and advanced quantum mechanical computer
modeling made possible by present-day computers. Not only is it
theoretically possible, we may be making our own supermaterials
in the next 100 years. Science has caught up with the witnesses,
which I think adds credibility to these early witness
descriptions of highly anomalous debris.

>Made, in part, of tissue paper.

Huh, where did "tissue paper" enter into it? Did Mogul people
blow their noses in the radar reflectors? Oh, I get it. You're
making up your "facts" as you go along.

>And, no photos of the debris field. No photos of military activity.
>No documents.

Yeah, tell us, where are all those photos and documents of a
Mogul crash and recovery? That's your pet theory. Produce them.

> But lots of "witnesses."

Yeah, all those damn witnesses. A pesky lot and unreliable. All
of them must be liars or senile. Take 'em out and shoot them
sergeant. Wait, just shoot the ones speaking of a saucer crash
-- spare the others.

>In 1997, I sat in the audience of a "Town Hall" television show
>in Seattle. On the stage was Kal Korff and Kevin Randle to
>"debate" Roswell. Months earlier it was revealed by an
>enterprising reporter that Donald Schmitt, Randle's
>co-researcher, had lied publicly about his education and
>professional background. He wasn't formerly a police officer; nor
>did he have a college degree.

>After the rambling discourse ended and the show was over, Kathy
>Andersen with MUFON, introduced me to Randle. She said, "This is
>Greg Long. He's writing a book on Kenneth Arnold." Randle's face
>instantly went hard and flat; a certain glare entered his eyes.
>He said nothing. His behavior was odd. I couldn't quite
>understand it. Was it because I had a brain?

I'm quite sure that wasn't the reason for his odd behavior.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

<Rest of rambling, somewhat paranoid discourse on the nefarious
Kevin Randle slighting Greg Long snipped -- I know nothing about
it, and Randle wrote his own response>

>Good bye, Roswell. Good-bye, Mr. Randle.

Good-bye, Mr. Long. Goodnight Gracie.

David Rudiak






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 17

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:19:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 06:07:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:30:07 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:39:14 -0400

>>>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:34:09 -0400
>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:06:51 EDT
>>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


Dennis,

>People are leaving the list in despair and digust over something
>I or somone else said and your antidote is the following URL?

Every once in a while you get people wanting to leave this List
because they are disgusted at the way exchanges between renowned
ufologists turn out.  It has to do with the tone in part, but I
guess it mainly has to do with the utter lack of information
being conveyed.  Because information is what it's all about.

I understand your first reflex will be to proclaim that David
Rudiak's text contains no information.  You are wrong.  For the
reader I am, David Rudiak's text contains information because it
takes your arguments and ideas one by one and gives straight
answers to them.

I find it quite refreshing.

It takes more than 2 hours to really grab the 76K text which is
full of enlightened insights, not only on Roswell but on
debunking methods in general.  Rudiak does mercifully put a
finger on the tricks of the trade for debunkers: the "naysaying",
the "rampant speculation", the "dodging of points", the "going
off on evasive, often irrational tangents", the "smokescreens"
and the "usual" one-sided "demands for good evidence" - the
"Debunker Double Standard at work."

>>It does reconciliate you with ufology and research.

>Please. It may reconcile you with something, but that something
>is neither ufology nor research. It is, instead, Roswell
>according to Rudiak.

"Roswell according to Rudiak" does have a good ring to it. I
fail to undestand how this is not ufology nor research when, in
your own words:

>David,

<snip>

>That said, the depth and extent of your research into Roswell is
>truly impressive, and I mean that in all sincerity.

<snip>

We thus both agree: David Rudiak's reply to Dennis Stacy on the
subject of Roswell found at:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/sep/m12-003.shtml

is an exemplary piece of research in ufology.  Welcome to the
chorus, Dennis.  Gee man, you started it !

Now, is there a reason the reader should doubt your sincerity ?


As for:

>There is all the hope you want. May the Greek chorus of Serge,
>Bruce and David live long and prosper. May you stay forever
>young. And may Roswell (and/or Ed Walters's polaroids) forever be
>your succour and safe harbor.

Heck, didn't know Ed Walters shot polaroids in Roswell in july 1947.

Enjoy,

Serge Salvaille







   UFO UpDates
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 17

                           Satellite Rocket Crash

From: Sean Jones <Tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:30:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 06:34:07 -0400
Subject: Satellite Rocket Crash

Source: 'Network Week' 16Sep98

A rocket carrying the first 12 satellites for the Globalstars
mobile phone system crashed after lift-off in Russia last
Thursday, pushing the project back by several months. The crash
came just days after Iridium had to delay the launch of its
mobile phone service.

---
    In an infinite universe inifinitely anything is posible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
         Research page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 17

                           Re: UFO Video Technique

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:32:57 PDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 06:00:08 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Video Technique


>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:18:26 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Video Technique

>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:49:55 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Video Technique
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Video Technique
>>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:44:41 PDT

><snip>

>>Alex (& List),

>>When I went to the linked page and perused the image the first
>>thing that occurred to me was that the silvery image's shape
>>appeared to match that of the sun shield in shape and
>>orientation. Is there a link to an image of the shading object
>>that may show it better?

>>As the image stands I think the silvery object may be an image
>>of the shading object that has been bounced around between the
>>lenses and eventually captured on one lense's surface.

>>What do Bruce Maccabee and the VideoMeister think of such
>>images?

>>Regards,

>>Leanne Martin

>Good guess. Be tough to prove with these data, however. Would
>have to know the distance of the "sun shade" from the camera,
>among other things..


Bruce & List,

When I think of previous pictures of this type they have normally
shot from under the overhang of the eaves of a house or suchlike
and that overhang is usually quite discernable. In this photo,
though, the shading image is totally blurred out as is if being
incredibly close to the lens. It also appears to be a curved
object close to, but not quite, symetrically shaped and with a
shiny surface.

I propose a standard be requested for those who may seriously
take up this form of photography so as to avoid such mis-shots.
For example, the shading device should, where possible, be a flat
(and preferably matte black) sheet or board mounted at least a
metre from the lens and fully perpendicular to the axis of the
lens.

Regards,

Leanne Martin
Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 17

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:00:50 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 06:19:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:06:51 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Best as we can tell, the debris wasn't shown to Blanchard until
>>the following morning.

>We can't tell anything, since nobody mentioned when it was first
>brought to Blanchard's attention. All I see here is Dennis Stacy
>jumping to conclusions. You'll notice this is yet another
>instance of Stacy making claims he can't back up with even one
>piece of EVIDENCE.

Part II:

Dearest David,

Do the words "best as we can tell" mean anything to you? You're
the one who's got a minute by minute scenario of what happened on
July 8, all based on "best as we can tell" evidence. You must
surely have some idea about when Marcel reported back to
Blanchard and showed him the debris? After all, it could only
have been the night before or the morning after. If you don't
like my scenario, propose your own. After all, you have no
hesitation making implications or drawing conclusions when it
suits your own argument. For the record, I didn't say I had
EVIDENCE of when Marcel showed Blanchard the debris he retrieved,
you snit. I said "as best we can tell." And as you're so fond of
saying, it wouldn't have made any difference when Marcel did it.
The whole point was that Marcel would have shown Blanchard the
debris before the latter issued the press release. My question
was, how did Blanchard look at what Marcel had and then issue a
press release referring to "_the_ disc"?

You'll note that this is another instance of Rudiak misconstruing
what I said and then failing to speak to the issue.

>>>* Marcel's next post being SAC Chief of a foreign technology
>>>intelligence division. The SAC insisted they get him when the
>>>A.F. Hdqtrs at the Pentagon asked to have him for another post
>>>at the same time. How exactly did a so- called bungling
>>>intelligence officer get such a technical intelligence post,
>>>when he supposedly couldn't even identify simple balloon debris?

First, it was not balloon debris that caused the problem, as you
well know. No one has ever claimed that what Marcel found was a
simple balloon or balloons and nothing else. Is Marcel holding up
a balloon in the pictures taken in Ramey's office? No, he's not.
It's the other material that's in question.

As for Marcel's qualifications and subsequent career...thanks,
but no thanks. I don't want to get into that as it would be
characterized as casting aspersions on God. Call it a cop-out if
you want.

>>You might as well ask (and explain yourself) similar questions
>>regarding Blanchard's behavior.

>Notice again how Dennis Stacy never directly addresses the
>points that I raise, but always goes off diversionary tangents.

Piffle, my boy. Have you never heard of an allusion or an
example? Let one mention one, though, and you're accused of
going off on "diversionary tangents." God forbid you should ever
do anything remotely resembling same!

>The question, Dennis, is how could Marcel get such a post if
>your claim that he misidentified a common balloon had any merit?
>Doesn't the Air Force run background checks on the people it
>selects to be chief of intelligence divisions?

Well, the short answer is that he didn't misidentify a common
balloon. Secondly, he wasn't hired, or promoted, as a balloon,
or anything else, identifier, but for separate skills and
knowledge entirely, which we have every reason to believe he was
more than competent at and conversant with.

Thirdly, if I may be permitted an allusion (or what Rudiak
refers to as a diversionary tangent), service records and
recommendations are propably less than they seem. For an example
(or a diversionary tangent, if you prefer), a few years ago I
saw a spectacular film clip of a Capt. that crashed his B-52 at
an air show, I believe, killing him and his crew. In the
subsequent investigation, it turned out that several of his
peers thought he was a dangerous hotdog and that at least one of
his peers refused to fly with him. But there he was -- at the
controls of a B-52, and no doubt with a completely clean service
record behind him. How else explain his promotion to pilot and
maintenance of same? (See also below, if I have room.)

>>Not only did he authorize a
>>press release announcing the recovery of a flying disc (not
>>small, shredded pieces of same)

>The press release was completely nonspecific about the condition
>of the "flying disc." Yet another pointless, irrelevant
>diversion by Stacy from the central issues.

Actually, it's a pointless, irrelevant comment by you. Several
times in the press release, as quoted, _the_ disk is referred
to. Marcel certainly didn't show Blanchard _the_ disk, did he?
So where did the idea of _the_ disc come from? It's you who are
avoiding the central issues.

>>without prior approval from higher headquarters,

>And Dennis Stacy's EVIDENCE that he didn't have prior approval
>from higher headquarters is what exactly? In contrast, there are
>newspaper statements that Blanchard had contacted Ramey about
>the find before shipping it to Fort Worth.

And what is your EVIDENCE that Blanchard did have contact with
higher headquarters _before_ issuing the press release?

<snip>

>>How, then, did he manage to issue a press release stating
>>that a relatively intact flying disc had been hauled into a
>>rancher's shed for storage?

> Where does the press release say that a "relatively intact
>flying disc had been hauled into a rancher's shed for storage?"
>As usual, Dennis Stacy is just shooting off at the mouth again
>because the press release didn't say that at all.

You're right again, David. Except that several times the press
release refers to _the_ disc and _a_ disc and _it_. Forgive
those less omnipotent that yourself for thinking this might
refer to a relatively intact disc, or even anything recognizable
as disc-shaped, given all the shredded bits and pieces that
Marcel would have dumped on Blanchard's desk. The point was
(when you get back to it): where did the _idea_ of a disc in the
press release come from, as it certainly couldn't have come from
the debris Marcel showed Blanchard. But wait: I have no EVIDENCE
that Marcel showed Blanchard _anything_, do I? I do have
evidence, though (Pratt's 1979 interview with Marcel), that a
soldier who tried to match pieces couldn't make even make two
fit together. So where did the idea of a disk come from? THAT
was the point, not your diversionary tangent.

>>No pro-Roswell researcher that I know has ever adequately
>>addressed this question. May you be >the first.

>What exact point am I supposed to be addressing since Stacy
>can't even get the contents of the press release right?

You're supposed to be addressing the issue of how a scattered
debris field got described as "_the_ disc." What's so hard to
understand?

<snip -- Eudora keeps giving me space warnings.>

>And what, AGAIN, does this have to do with people like Ramey
>(and Ryan) calling Marcel "outstanding" and command officer
>material a year later? Not only did the head intelligence
>officer at Ramey's sensitive, elite nuclear bombing base
>supposedly screw up a simple balloon ID and embarrass the whole
>chain of command, Marcel allegedly compounded the problem
>directly in front of Ramey. Remember?

<snip>

>The Air Force sounds like one neat outfit, so easily forgiving
>junior officers for incompetence and indiscretion.  The generals
>are all pussycats under those gruff exteriors.

And apparently they all feel now perfectly free to discuss the
beginning of the Cosmic Watergate with any civilian UFO
researcher who comes calling. Some secret. Some Watergate. And
so much for death threats. Hey, civilians, all you had to do was
_ask_! Not much of an AF cover up, is it? Like all knee-jerk
Roswell proponents, why don't you dodge that one, David Rudiak?

>Dennis Stacy, like all knee-jerk Roswell debunkers, always
>dodges direct questions about this. Ramey's subsequent praise
>for Marcel makes absolutely no sense under the Marcel debunking
>scenario. Blanchard giving Marcel his highest numerical rating
>ever after Roswell makes no sense, if Marcel had actually led
>him down the garden path. Blanchard, Ramey, and Dubose
>recommending Marcel for promotion in the Reserve makes no sense.
>Marcel being recommissioned the following spring instead of
>being let go makes no sense. Marcel being transferred to a post
>a year later placing him in charge of SAC intelligence on
>foreign air technology makes no sense if he couldn't even ID a
>balloon. The SAC and A.F. Headquarters competing for Marcel's
>services a year later makes no sense. Marcel's assignment to the
>top secret Special Weapons Project afterwards makes no sense.

>Come on Dennis, quit tap-dancing around the question. What part
>of Marcel's subsequent record gives us any indication that
>Marcel badly screwed up Roswell? The answer is none of it does.
>It fact, it indicates exactly the opposite. And maybe, just
>maybe, that's because not only didn't Marcel make a mess of
>things, he actually did an excellent job and did exactly as he
>was told. That's usually the reason senior officers praise and
>reward their juniors -- not when they screw up and publicly
>embarrass them.

No one's tap-dancing, David. The above scenario makes sense to
you because you want it to. It's your assumption that because
there is no mention in Marcel's record of a screw up at Roswell,
therefore, an extraterrestrial spaceship must have been
recovered there. Marcel wasn't reprimanded in his service record
about Roswell, ergo ET. One might as well ask (to diversionarily
tangent) why he wasn't commended for his behavior at Roswell.
Couldn't Blanchard have said, "After original Roswell snafu,
followed orders to a T. Secret is safe with him. Will never
talk."

But you're so blinded with belief that something
extraterrestrial crashed at Roswell that you can't even consider
the idea that the whole incident was a momentary blip on the
Army AF's radar screen at the time. In something like 48 hours
it was all over and done with. Instead, you like to think that a
mere week or two after the Arnold sighting the AF came into the
possession of at least two UFOs at separate sites, one with
bodies, one without, and the massive cover up was well underway,
a cover up that countless former military officers apparently
have no compunction about now revealing. In other words, you
want your cake, and you want to eat it, too.

<snip on Ramey and radar -- another Eudora warning.)

<snip -- about Gen. Samford & Project Grudge. Sorry, but Eudora
keeps giving me these memory warnings. If only David weren't so
prolix. Otherwise, I'd think he was on a diversionary tangent or
something.>

>I suggest you also read Keyhoe's account of the Samford/Ramey
>press conference in his 1953 book "Flying Saucers From Outer
>Space," since it was taken directly from transcripts and is very
>illuminating. Samford did most of the talking, and utilized
>deliberate doubletalk, evasion, plus the above ambiguousness and
>illogical reasoning to confuse the hell out of the press. In
>fact, it sounds a lot like the tactics Dennis Stacy uses to
>debunk.

Thanks, David. I studied at the feet of the master. I suggest
you read everything. And who was it that mentioned Stamford,
anyway? Wouldn't have been one of your diversionary tangents,
would it? If I mentioned him, my apologies. It was because you
were all over the place to begin with, which is why Eudora keeps
telling me I'm running out of space.

<small snip>

<larger snip about Samford, Ramey, and radar. hell, I can't answer
everything in the space left over.>

>It also does not address the original point I was making. Ramey
>remained deeply involved in UFO investigations following
>Roswell, as is evidenced by his participation in Washington
>debunking 5 years later, where he was called one of the Air
>Force's top two UFO experts. Now if Roswell was nothing but a
>balloon and there is nothing to UFOs in general, why the hell
>did Ramey stay involved with them and become one of the A.F.'s
>top experts?

Because you're a dolt. Ramey was a high muckety-muck in the AF
at the time and was at the Pentagon, so naturally he would have
been called on stage. The AF, or the NY Times calls him one of
the two top AF UFO experts, and you think it means something
sinister, as opposed to puffery, or a logical inference the
reporter might have made. But, no, to you it's all evidence of a
sinister cover up. Did Ruppelt ever mention Ramey as deeply
involved in UFOs? Did Keyhoe or anyone else that you know of?
Have any documents recovered under the FOIA pointed to
additional involvement by Ramey with UFOs between 1947 and 1952?
Not that I'm aware of. But here you've got a teeny weeny bit of
something that you think is evidence of a Roswell cover up and
you play it to the hilt. Talk about jumping to conclusions!

If Ramey was so identified, wouldn't he have been the target of
subsequent reporters' barrages? Wouldn't we have had endless
articles in the press beginning with comments from Ramey, "one
of the AF's two top UFO experts"? Someone must have corrected
the situation somewhere along the line. Once again, you're
making a mountain out of a molehill.

><snip>

>[Korff said]
>>>William, what _hard_evidence_ do you have that Roswell
>>>"witnesses" were threatened with death, etc?

>>>Well here's some _hard evidence._ We definitely have a quote
>>>from Sheriff Wilcox published in the Albuquerque Journal the
>>>next day. When pressed for more details on what the debris
>>>looked like, the Journal reported that Wilcox "declined to
>>>elaborate," explaining that he was "working with those fellows
>>>at the base."

>>>Although this obviously doesn't prove that Wilcox was threatened
>>>with death, it does strongly indicate that anything Wilcox
>>>stated to the press on July 8 was NOT independent testimony nor
>>>necessarily freely given. By this time he was working with the
>>>military, as he admitted. And it is right in line with
>>>statements from two members of the Wilcox family that Wilcox had
>>>been threatened.

>>First, you start off saying that you have _hard evidence_, then
>>in the next graf you say, "Although this obviously doesn't prove
>>that Wilcox was threatened with death..." So which is it?

>The contemporaneous newspaper quote is actual corroborative
>documentation to all those nasty, unreliable 50-year-old
>memories that Wilcox was not acting freely and may have in fact
>have been coerced by the military. He wouldn't give further
>information when asked by a reporter, because he was "working
>with those fellows at the base." Got it?

Got it, David! When a sheriff says he's "working with those
fellows at the base," what it really means is that he's been
threatened with death if he says anything. So, fearful for his
life, he tells family members about the threats -- but he
threatens them with serious consequences should they tell anyone
else.

>Circumstantial evidence, if you will, but still considerably
>more than either you or Korff seems to be providing, which
>amounts to little more than naysaying and assertions of "facts"
>not in evidence. The Wilcox quote would probably be considered
>an important piece of documentation in a court case,
>particularly when coupled with multiple witness testimony to
>coercion and death threats.

Well, at least we've got you down to circumstantial. Earlier it
was HARD EVIDENCE. I'm assuming, btw, that you're now
discounting Glenn Dennis's previous hard evidence of having been
threatened with death in the desert?

>Yeah, yeah, the usual debunking line: "50 year old memories and
>anecdotal accounts." We've also noticed how these same old
>memories and anecdotal accounts seem to always be accepted
>uncritically by people like Stacy or A.F. propagandists if they
>feel they support a balloon crash, but never the other way
>around. Why is that? A Debunking Double Standard perhaps?

There wouldn't be a pro-Roswell line, would there? Just curious.

>Let's contrast this with the Trakowski/Duffy story I mentioned
>above, which was likewise nothing but an anecdote based on one
>50-year-old memory. Trakowski claimed Duffy told him that the
>material shown to him looked like it came from Mogul. That was
>supposed to be the clincher that this was Mogul. But where was
>the corroboration? There was supposed to be written statement
>from Duffy before he died which was readily available to the Air
>Force. But curiously they never published it. Now it's obvious
>why. Duffy in fact denied knowing the origins of the debris,
>which he called generic weather equipment. The debunkers have
>also failed to produce a single document from Wright Field which
>speaks to the dispensation of the debris flown there, which
>would have included its identification. Yet, seven weeks later
>we have a document from Wright Field describing a very thorough
>analysis by their labs of a patently obvious hoax disc. But
>there is no similar document giving a comparable analysis of
>Roswell debris, though it should exist. The Aug. 25 document
>also curiously mentions the Mogul Project, even though this
>document was classified at a lowly "Confidential" level. Mogul
>simply wasn't all that secret.

Someone else may be addressing the above issue at greater
length..

><snip>

>>And what about Glenn
>>Dennis's claims of death threats? How highly (ie, credible) do
>>you rate those now?

>Glenn Dennis had nobody to back his statements of being
>threatened. That doesn't prove he lied about this, but he had no
>independent corroboration. But with Wilcox and Brazel, we have
>testimony and evidence from a number of sources suggesting
>coercion. Thus threats against Wilcox and Brazel are much better
>established than anyone else. I'm trying to hold the discussion
>to the better data.  Dragging Glenn Dennis into the discussion
>is yet another very typical Stacy diversion. Next Stacy will be
>ranting about Ragsdale and Anderson. He's like a broken record.

You're the only broken record around here, Rudiak. Anderson,
Ragsdale, and Dennis are mentioned only because they _have_ been
revealed as bogus witnesses. You seem to think the list stops
there, but who knows where it ends, except you, who knows
everything? How long did it take for Dennis to be exposed? And
who got credit for it when he was? How long did it take before
Schmitt was revealed as a dissembler and self-promoter? And who
discovered same? Not Randle.

So who may be discredited in the future, once additional details
surface? Who knows, except you? Want to bet your stock portfolio
on the truthfulness of Frank Kaufmann and Frankie Rowe, to name
but two? Maybe Kevin Randle would. Excuse the diversionary
tangent.

><snip>

>But Brazel supposedly finds a crashed Mogul balloon made of
>standard weather balloon equipment, somehow thinks its radically
>different from other weather balloons he had found before,
>somehow thinks it might be one of those flying saucers he just
>heard about, goes to Roswell to report it, and suddenly the
>military goes ballistic. Even more mysteriously, the military
>remained ballistic even after Gen. Ramey chuckled and called it
>all a big mistake, nothing but a weather balloon folks. He put
>what was supposedly found in Roswell on public display and
>allowed photos to be taken.

Dave, Dave, even if you were 100% right, you know, deep down
inside your heart, that it isn't the balloon material that
intrigues Brazel: it's the other stuff. Why do you keep calling
it balloon material and balloon material only, if not to make
yourself look better?

Brazel comes into town and "suddenly the military goes
ballistic"? Aren't you hyperventilating just a little here?
Blanchard sends Marcel and Cavitt down to check it out and this
is your idea of a "ballistic" response? And the "military
remained ballistic" after the Ramey press conference? What, in
God's name, are you referring to, the alleged death threats?

>So why wasn't that the end of it?  Instead Brazel was
>subsequently marched to the Daily Record office shortly
>afterwards under military escort (many witnesses including
>Kellahin) and remained incommunicado at the base for another
>week. Afterwards he told friends and family that they had thrown
>him in prison and was repeatedly interrogated (many witnesses,
>including base Provost Marshall Easley).

I see, not allegedly marched, escorted or accompanied, but
simply marched, presumably from a military staff car a few feet
from the curb outside the Daily Record. And how long did it take
to break Brazel's will -- bereft of family and work that would
need to have been done around the ranch in his absence? Not a
day, not two days, or even three, four, five or six. No, Brazel
only agreed, acquiesced, whatever, on the seventh day, when some
highly intelligent Army interrogator came up with the idea of
offering him a new pick up. "Now, you're talkin'!" Brazel said,
and was promptly released.

>Why did they do this to Brazel and apparently instruct Wilcox
>not to talk? Stacy's explanation is that Mogul was SOOOO secret,
>even though the military was publicly blabbing about the balloon
>trains it in all sorts of ways immediately afterwards, Ramey was
>publicly displaying some of the alleged remains, and the
>military had never mistreated civilians who had found the
>balloons before or after. Mogul people today state they didn't
>really care if anybody found the equipment, it was impossible to
>conceal anyway, nothing could be learned from them, and most of
>the balloons were simply left to rot in the wild.

You know, David, there's always one thing I've wondered about.
I've always wondered why, when Kevin Randle, Stan Friedman, you,
or someone else calls up an officer who was once stationed at
Roswell, why is it that they are so eager to reveal the truth
about bodies at Roswell, but no one seems to want to take credit
for threatening civilians? I'd think by now that Easley, or
someone, would have confessed, "Damned right I threatened 'em!
Shoulda seen the look on their faces. Scared 'em silly! Worked,
too, didn't it?" But no one has, alas.

Wouldn't that have been someone's job, maybe Easley's? Wouldn't
he have been in charge of sequestering Brazel for a full week,
interrogating him, or whatever was done with thim, plus
threatening Sheriff Wilcox, Frankie Rowe, and others, leaving
aside Glenn Dennis? Or would all that have been left to the
master sergeant under him, without his knowledge? Yes, sirree,
you people have got this Roswell case wrapped up tighter than a
drum! Guess no one bothered to ask the right questions, eh?
Shame all that civilian confirmation and no military man wanting
to take credit. If I didn't know that everyone in the AF was an
inveterate liar, I'd be tempted to think it didn't happen at
all.

>There was no reason whatsoever to detain Brazel if he had in
>fact discovered a small portion of a Mogul (remember, just the
>singular balloon and radar reflector in Fort Worth, the current
>official Air Force position). There was nothing shown in Fort
>Worth to distinguish it from an ordinary weather balloon. What's
>a spy going to learn from that?  The Air Force could have simply
>told Brazel that he had found part of a scientific balloon just
>like ones they used back in New Jersey for cosmic ray research,
>given him a $50 reward for reporting it, and sent him home. But
>that's not the way it played out, is it? Brazel didn't believe
>he had found a balloon of any type, defiantly ending his RDR
>interview stating that what he found didn't resemble in any way
>weather balloons he had previously found. The military acted
>like they were scared to death of what this sheep rancher might
>continue to say and detained him until he finally toed the party
>line. Over what -- a very unsecret secret balloon?

Balloon, balloon, there you go again. We don't know how it
played out. I don't know and you don't know. The AF could have
told him anything they damned well wanted to. They could have
told him he found a secret rocket project and still made the
same buy-off offer and threats, if that's what they did. You
accuse me of speculation -- and here you are running rampant
with it.

<snip>

>Obviously MUFON never fully
>appreciated Stacy's absurdist comic side.

This is true.

<snip>

>As usual, with Stacy, no matter how many people tell the same
>story of Brazel (not Marcel) being incarcerated and muscled by
>the military, we can never accept that it might actually reflect
>reality.  There's a good reason that Stacy and others are in
>such denial about this. I think even he recognizes that such
>mistreatment of Brazel would be totally inconsistent with a
>stupid balloon crash, no matter how allegedly "secret" it was.

>David Rudiak

As usual? Have you been following my career? I'm flattered.

You accept Brazel's week-long incarceration as Roswell gospel. I
don't. Not til one of those otherwise lying (except when they're
spouting the Rudiak-approved version of Roswell) AF gossips
fesses up. I'm after hard evidence.

Damn, Eudora booted me! See next post.

Dennis







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   Sep > Sep 17

                  More On Alleged Tanrow - Poland - Landing

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:52:36 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 06:03:33 -0400
Subject: More On Alleged Tanrow - Poland - Landing


Source: alt.ufo.reports, September 16.

Stig

*******

Re: Landing in Tanrow,Poland

Author: unknown

Email: none@none.com
Date: 1998/09/16
Forum: alt.ufo.reports

Hey guys, forget your silly quarrels here after first landing of
UFO in Tarnow (see Poland) there was another landing on the
airstrip in Mielec. Apparently it took place at the same time (4
am) on the airfield of the WSK Mielec, when the airfield guards
tried to approach the craft they too were prevented from doing so
by some unseen force.

However there is one casualty a guard dog who was intercepted by
a "tractor beam" which lift the dog up and move him to the craft.
After that the craft took off at the astounding speed and
dissapered. The whole thing is being keep secret because it took
place on military installations but there has been a leak. FBI in
Warsaw was notified and they did send an investigation team to
the site.







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   Sep > Sep 17

                          Rense, Lindemann & Alford

From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 07:28:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 07:28:06 -0400
Subject: Rense, Lindemann & Alford



For those susbcribers, who like myself, are intrigued by the
possible connection between ancient history and UFOs, might I
suggest a a visit to:

http://www.audionet.com/shows/endoftheline/archive.stm

There you'll find Jeff Rense's 'Sightings' program archive.

Last night's (September 16) first hour featured the KGB Files
with Michael Lindemann on his 'Weekly UFO/ET Update' and
then British researcher/author Alan Alford. Alford discussed his
book 'Secrets Of A Lost Civilization' and his latest findings.

An absorbing, fascinating man is Alan Alford. Made 'doing the
overnight mail-run', here even more interesting. His theories
on Ancient Egypt, the 'Skies', Atlantis and the 'Great Flood'
are well worth listening to. (via RealAudio)





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   Sep > Sep 17

                   Re: UK TV Show Is Looking For UFO Info

From: John Rimmer <j_rimmer@library.croydon.gov.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:59:26 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 07:35:26 -0400
Subject: Re: UK TV Show Is Looking For UFO Info


>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:00:25 +0100
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Keith Stevens <keith.stevens@virgin.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UK TV Show Is Looking For UFO Info

>>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:33:42 -0400
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: UK TV Show Is Looking For UFO Info
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>They are willing to listen to information from around the world
>>>and not just the UK.

>>Gee, good for them!
>>They might find some here, if they bothered to look.

>Hi Bruce

>Don't 'knock them'. I never took much notice of this particular
>thread when it started but I seem to recall it concerns Channel
>5. These people may actually be really trying to help.

>Certainly Channel 5 in the UK is new but already they have put
>out a few UFO related programmes. I must admit I have not viewed
>their efforts, but I have heard good reports. (I spend too long
>looking at this monitor)

>Perhaps some one else on the list has and would like to comment?

Channel 5 is certainly a very small station - they've probably
had more people on it than watch it. However I did an interview
for a news feature a few weeks ago and was asked intelligent
questions by someone who'd done a bit of homework. In the nature
of these things only a soundbite was shown on the news programme,
but it was a well-chosen one which got my point across.

They may well be worth co-operating with.

John Rimmer
The P.L.A. Driftwood Organisation is still around and watching you
Magonia OnLine: www.magonia.demon.co.uk





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   Sep > Sep 17

                Re: UFO KGB Files Webpage - Evaluation Of TNT

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:31:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 07:31:03 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO KGB Files Webpage - Evaluation Of TNT


> Date: 16 Sep 98 18:51:05 EDT
> From: Alex Hefman <ufokgb@usa.net>
> To: updates@globalserve.net
> Subject: UFO KGB Files Webpage (Evaluation Of Tnt Program)

> [Non-subscriber Post --ebk]

> Webpage devoted to the research of
> UFO KGB Files from the TNT program:

> http://members.tripod.com/~ufokgb

> Critical comments welcomed to ufokgb@usa.net


Honored List;

I was vaguely underwhelmed by much of the program, and found most
of the rest breathtaking boring -- with the exception of the shot
of the F-16 from the Russian Jet!

Did anyone else see the shadow of the UFO follow it down into
cloud?

Dazzling! The Rod UFO, and the "merging" UFO were too anomalous
looking to be credible, though certainly interesting. The rest of
the program was unconvincing, and at times even insulting,

Lehmberg@snowhill.com


--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 12 September>

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.








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   Sep > Sep 17

                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 06:36:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 07:41:38 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show

>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:24:24 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

<snip>

>Some points I really need to make clear to the list so as not to
>be missinterpreted.

>1) I have no illusions that this "does" or "does not" represent
>a factual scenario. That is to say, it may or may not be true.
>But given the benefit of the doubt ...

>2) ... nothing was mentioned about a debris field. If there was
>one, there would have had to have been lots of "stuff" to be
>picked over by the KGB or whomever it was in charge. This debris
>would likely have been more essential to truth than the "saucer"
>portion remaining in the ground.  Imagine the secrets in those
>small pieces of technology.

>3) The word "belief" is an extremely strong word. When applied
>in other than a religious connotation, it implies firm,
>irrevocable and intimate knowledge of the truth of a thing. That
>is, by my philosophy. I rather think it is possible that the
>show represented some level of factual information but it's
>probability is not "overwhelming," eh?

>Sorry about the "eh," I spent a week in Toronto one day.

>Jim

In rewatching the simulation of the "crash" it still appears to
me that the craft did not break up into two pieces when it hit
the ground, but through up a lot of dirt when it struck.  As it
flips and rolls toward the wooded area (in the simulation) the
damaged craft can be seen as a complete circle, which wouldn't be
the case if nearly half of it had been broken off.  It also
appeared to be whole as it hit the tree and was either pushed or
slid back into the ground (which it appeared to cut into like a
knife cuts into butter).

Of course, we're discussing a simulation created by the
production company and based on a lot of assumptions and
speculation.

I would have to agree with Stanton Friedman on the show when he
said that this information was in his "gray basket", as
interesting but unproven as either real or fake.  From my
perspective there are many reasons to doubt its authenticity, and
I can only hope that some researchers (somewhere) are attempting
to get more information on this alleged incident.  Otherwise, we
only have the production company's limited information to go on,
and they have emphasized on several levels that they viewed this
as "entertainment", not a "documentary".

Steve






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                Re: More On Alleged Tanrow - Poland - Landing

From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:56:35 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 07:45:34 -0400
Subject: Re: More On Alleged Tanrow - Poland - Landing


>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:52:36 +0200
>Subject: Update On Alleged Tanrow Landing

>Source: alt.ufo.reports, September 16.

>Stig

>*******

>Re: Landing in Tanrow,Poland

>Author: unknown

>Email: none@none.com
>Date: 1998/09/16
>Forum: alt.ufo.reports

>Hey guys, forget your silly quarrels here after first landing of
>UFO in Tarnow (see Poland) there was another landing on the
>airstrip in Mielec. Apparently it took place at the same time (4
>am) on the airfield of the WSK Mielec, when the airfield guards
>tried to approach the craft they too were prevented from doing so
>by some unseen force.

>However there is one casualty a guard dog who was intercepted by
>a "tractor beam" which lift the dog up and move him to the craft.
>After that the craft took off at the astounding speed and
>dissapered. The whole thing is being keep secret because it took
>place on military installations but there has been a leak. FBI in
>Warsaw was notified and they did send an investigation team to
>the site.

Hm, another strange story without a name to support it... Well
anyway, with this ammount of supportive evidence I'm afraid it
remains just that: A Strange Story...


With Kind Regards,

Andy Denne
(A.U.R.A.)






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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Doc Barry <authority@webtv.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 06:07:53 -0700 (MST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:23:50 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


Entertainment or documentary, this show has certainly produced
commentary on this List.  Turner, part of Time-Warner, is very
careful of releases, facing many millions in litigation over the
Vietnam sarin gas story.  One thing is absolutely certain, that
critics, nit-pickers, fans of that show, and advertisers, are
enduring heavy breathing waiting for the sequel.

Broadcasters have learned from Fox's X-files, and upcoming second
X-file movie, that endings should be cliff-hangers.

Now that Turner Broadcasting has our full attention, we'll watch
for announcements of the sequels. I'll watch and tape the
sequels, and you'll watch too. I think KGB UFO Files 2, is
already in the can. You don't? Sue me.

== Doc

~~~~~Get BREAKING news plus UFO/ET news - NOW - click on "What's Up
Doc?" www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518







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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:24:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:35:13 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show
>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:09:59 PDT

<deleted>

>Jim & List,

>It seems highly improbable to me that a craft designed for
>inter-planetary & and atmospheric travel would simply snap in
>half, like a scored tablet, across its diameter and show
>absolutely no other shell damage. To top it of it just happens to
>come to rest on the broken edge - what are the chances that a
>round tablet broken in half will stand on its broken edge when
>dropped?

>It is just way too convenient!

>For me from this distance the TNT show is dynamite  :-)

>Regards,

>Leanne Martin
>Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia

Leanne & List,

From an armchair theorist's viewpoint, I guess there should be a
(cigar-shaped?) mothership out there somewhere, and possibly
outside the Earth's atmosphere, and that the Russian disc was
designed basically for atmospheric travel only. In that case, I
guess the disc should be made from a material being fairly heat
resistant, or it should have some kind of heat-resisting material
attached to the disc's surface. This is difficult to see from
these images.

Further, I can't see any visible carbon or soot deposits on the
disc - from a potential heat exposure through the atmosphere.
(The disc is likely to have a fairly high velocity when entering
the Earth's atmosphere - if obeying the laws of gravity.) In
fact, the disc looks fairly white and clean to me, with no
visible surface marks resulting from heat exposure or ground
impacts. Possibly, the disc could alternatively be shielded by
some kind of electro-magnetic energy field surrounding the disc?

Provided the potential ET craft materials are radar beam
reflective, larger motherships outside the atmosphere should
however be detected by the ground-located (space) radars in e.g.
England or USA, as these radar stations are also constantly
monitoring and logging the satellites and satellite 'garbage' and
debris orbiting the earth. (Disc-shaped objects are, however,
difficult to be observed on radar.)

The assumingly lonely pilot was likely to be out on some kind of
patrolling mission, I guess.


Best regards
AWS








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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 98 08:26:04 PDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:27:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:17:13 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:08:05 -0500 (CDT)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Dennis tacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:34:09 -0400
>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:06:51 EDT
>>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>><snip>

>>>With respect to you monster discussion/rebuttal on Roswell:
>>>Bravo!

>As for "authentication for #20,000" mentioned above, implying a
>"quid pro quo", let me point out that I published the results of
>my research on the Walters case in the MUFON Symposium
>Proceedings. I wrote that paper in April and May of 1988 and
>subsequently published more information written in June of 1988
>and presented as viewgraphs that were presented at the Symposium
>in July. All of this material was presented to the general
>public FOR FREE.

>Anyway, YOU GOT THAT DENNIS? There was no talk of a book until
>much later.

>The work underlying these results was completed some 6 months
>BEFORE there was any book contract. I subsequently wrote a
>chapter for which I was paid 20,000 less agents fee of 2000
>meaning I actually received $18,000.

>Hence you are wrong to insinuate I was paid $20K in return for
>authentication.


Bruce,

I'm sorry that you felt you had to defend yourself in this way.
Speaking personally, I would have refused to do so personally in
your shoes, insisting that the record speak for itself. And the
record shows, as any rational observer would agree, that your
commitment and integrity are not open to question. Dennis, who
knows better, owes you an apology.

Jerry Clark








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              Sighting Report - Redcliffe, Brisbane, Australia

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:35:41 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:30:09 -0400
Subject: Sighting Report - Redcliffe, Brisbane, Australia


Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
tkbnetw@fan.net.au
*******************************************

Sighting Reported
Redcliffe Brisbane
Wednesday 16th 1998
Time 11.20pm to 11.45pm 4 people witnessed a UFO

Mr D anonymous, said that he went out side 11.20pm and just
happened to look up at the sky, where he saw a bright lights
colour was Red, Blue, Green, it was moving and was followed by
approx 7 smaller lights which looked like stars. Mr D went back
in side and rang a friend 11.25pm and asked her to go out side
to see if she could see them from her place. Mrs Clark went out
side at 11.30pm and saw the same thing she thought, thats
strange why are the stars moving.

She then saw the lights start to do a number of formations.

1. straight line then of into a V joined
2. a circle with a tail.
3. a wide V
4. a V with a line through the middle.

She said she watched this for around 15 to 20 minutes then they
disappeared.

****************************************

Did any one else have any sightings reported to them last night??.

Reported to Diane.
Sharing is caring :>)
Happy posting









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                           Re: A Research Question

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:52:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:00:07 -0400
Subject: Re: A Research Question


>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: A Research Question
>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:14:59 -0400

>Hello List-

>I wonder if anyone might help me out with a bit of information
>for a UFO piece I am working on. Does anyone know from how many
>miles away you can (easily, with the naked eye) see the glow of
>Las Vegas on the horizon?


Atmospheric conditions: cloud cover (low, high) or clear?






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   Sep > Sep 17

                          UFO Magazine [US] Website

From: Don Ecker <decker@ufomag.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:23:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:56:47 -0400
Subject: UFO Magazine [US] Website


To All on the UpDates List;

Hello,

To any of you that may have recently attempted to log onto the
UFO Magazine Website, we are in the process of changing web
providers. In other words, it is temporally down. It will again
be up soon and will be greatly improved. I will advise on the
list when this happens.

If any of you have questions, please email. Thanks.

Don Ecker


--
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with
confidence.
Don Ecker
UFO Magazine








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               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:30:04 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:48:11 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:09:28 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

<Much snipping throughout>

>Brazel's ranch wasn't on the general flight path of the Moguls.
>Therefore it would indeed have been "strange" for one of the
>balloons to crash there.  In scientific papers, researchers
>generally hope to demonstrate some effect to a minimal 95%
>confidence level, if not better. However with Roswell, we have
>just the opposite. We can say with about a 95% level of
>confidence that the balloons would NOT have passed in the
>general vicinity of the Foster Ranch. Again, there is that 5%
>chance or so of the random, chance flight, passing nearby (i.e.,
>within 20 or 30 miles), but such low odds do not inspire a lot
>of confidence in the Mogul hypothesis.

Just out of idle curiousity, I wonder if anyone has ever
calculated the odds of two (or more) flying saucers crashing
within, say, a hundred mile radius of each other, on the same
day or a few days apart? Or the odds of two colliding, one with
bodies, and one without? All within two weeks or so of the
Arnold sighting?

>>Odd it was that Mac Brazel found balsa wood

>Well, actually, Brazel in his Roswell Daily Record interview
>referred to them simply as "sticks." Balsa was never mentioned,
>though it would have been easily recognizable. Brazel never
>mentioned "balsa" in private either. Instead his neighbors the
>Proctors were shown a small piece of the woodlike material which
>couldn't be cut with a knife or burned (according to Loretta
>Proctor).

>> and dark-gray neo-prene material. Strange.

>"Smoky grey" "rubber strips" which he said he rolled into a
>bundle. Unfortunately, if the "neoprene" had actually lain out
>in the hot sun for a month (Brazel said he recovered it July 4,
>exactly one month of your alleged Mogul crash), the material
>would no longer have resembled rubber nor had any elasticity
>left. After two or three weeks, the sunlight reduced the
>neoprene balloons to a brittle, ashlike state, according to
>Mogul engineer Charles Moore. So "strange" indeed that his
>rubber description didn't match what one would expect for some
>month-old balloons.

For what it's worth, I believe that Moore has since changed this
to a couple of months, based partly on experimentation.
Regardless, one could probaably look up the weather for the
period in question. Crary's diary, which contains some entries
Moore refers to as "puzzling," mentions two days in a row in
early June when a Mogul launch was scrubbed because of cloudy
skies. Brazel also mentions a thunderstorm.

My experience of Roswell weather is limited, but, contradictory
as it may seem, I think the summer is the "rainy" season for the
desert southwest. When I went out to the Kaufmann crash site
during last year's 50th anniversary celebration, it was 111 in
the shade and there wasn't any shade or a single cloud in the
sky. The other two days it rained each afternoon in Roswell,
good summer thunderstorms on a broad front, with lightning and
blustery winds.

>There are multiple witnesses to this property, several military
>and several civilian. Gen. Exon, though not a first-hand
>witness, likewise stated he was told that some of the Roswell
>thin metal material behaved in this fashion.

And let's not forget the fiber optics and the bodies!

I don't think it's worth making a fuss about, But Marcel Jr.'s
drawing of the I-beam shows jagged, broken ends. In the Pratt
interview, Marcel is asked "Any jagged or broken ends or the
like?" and Marcel says, "No. As far as I can call recall, they
were clean."

Dennis

PS: I had forgotten that Easley's testimony involved personal
knowledge of Brazel's testimony. I'm sure Rudiak has already
posted a couple of pages correcting me and wondering how I
explain _that_? The short answer is that I can't explain it.
There are a lot of things I can't explain. For example, I can't
explain why Philip Corso came to write the book he did, but
there it is, in black and white.







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   Sep > Sep 17

                      Re: CSETI Assumes 'The Position'

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:30:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 21:29:51 -0400
Subject: Re: CSETI Assumes 'The Position'

>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:13:23 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org>
>Subject: UFOR: Operational Readiness - CSETI Position Paper
>To: updates@globalserve.net

>From: Tony Craddock <webmaster@cseti.org>
>Via: webmaster@cseti.org

>OPERATIONAL READINESS AND THE UNIDENTIFIED FLYING
>OBJECT/EXTRATERRESTRIAL INTELLIGENCE (UFO/ETI) SUBJECT:
>WHY MILITARY AND NATIONAL SECURITY LEADERS HAVE A NEED TO KNOW

>    22 August 1998
>    copyright 1998
>    Steven M. Greer M.D., Director of CSETI
>Abstract:

Hello All,

While CSETI is in "the position" allow me to insert my un-
lubricated member for a moment. Don't worry CSETI fans,
I'll be gentle and I will still respect the organization in
the morning every bit as much as I do now. <G>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CSETI post:

TWENTY-TWO (count em) freaking pages of rant and rave and
not _one_single_shred_of_checkable_information_! Greer
is starting to get like Wild Bill Cooper who goes on and on
about government conspiracy without _ever_ offering evidence.

Not one name, or document, is tendered. We are supposed to
take his word that this (completely insane) theory of
his (that the government is responsible for 98% of all reported
abductions) is based in reality. Without providing -some-
corroborative evidence for such a claim he shouldn't be polluting
bandwidth with it. The stuff that comes out of Greer and CSETI
is nothing short of Internet UFO junk mail. The -worst kind- of
popular tripe.

I guess the political limelight dimmed and so the good doctor
now turns his attention on the military establishment. Good,
let him go and mess with those goose stepping morons! Uncle
Sam may [goosestep] all over him and do us all a favor.

Dr Greer is free to make any 'claims' that he wants to. If he
expects to be taken seriously however, he should start providing
info that can be checked out and verified. If I wanted to play
_his_ game, I could easily post something like:

========================================================

Greer has been caught faking 'sightings' during his field trips
with the poor bozo's that he bilks out of hundreds of dollars
for the privilege of hanging around in the middle of a cow
pasture, while waving a flashlight around  - in the middle of
the night!

========================================================

No names, no documentation, no nothing. You are expected to
take my word for it that, "I had meetings with people who told
me, yadda, yadda, yadda." Sound familiar? <VEG>

My list of organizations that begin with the letter 'C' that
are either full of sh*t or just _suck_ grows daily. Let's see,
so far I have; CSICOP, CAUS, and CSETI. They are all pseudo-
religious sects with dogmatically held belief systems and
that (uniformly) lack the cohones to openly declare themselves
as Cults.

"If it walks like a duck, . . ."

Dr Greer: Defecate, (make your BM) or vacate the lavatory
please. There's enough of a bad smell in there sans your
gaseous/odiforous/flatulent contributions. <G>

Stop the Insanity!

Peace,

John Velez, Just passing a little 'gas' of my own! <G>

(Speaking _strictly_ for myself)


________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
________________________________________________






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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:27:55 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 21:39:11 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 06:36:59 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:24:24 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

><snip>

>>Some points I really need to make clear to the list so as not to
>>be missinterpreted.

>>1) I have no illusions that this "does" or "does not" represent
>>a factual scenario. That is to say, it may or may not be true.
>>But given the benefit of the doubt ...

>>2) ... nothing was mentioned about a debris field. If there was
>>one, there would have had to have been lots of "stuff" to be
>>picked over by the KGB or whomever it was in charge. This debris
>>would likely have been more essential to truth than the "saucer"
>>portion remaining in the ground.  Imagine the secrets in those
>>small pieces of technology.

>>3) The word "belief" is an extremely strong word. When applied
>>in other than a religious connotation, it implies firm,
>>irrevocable and intimate knowledge of the truth of a thing. That
>>is, by my philosophy. I rather think it is possible that the
>>show represented some level of factual information but it's
>>probability is not "overwhelming," eh?

>>Sorry about the "eh," I spent a week in Toronto one day.

>>Jim

>In rewatching the simulation of the "crash" it still appears to
>me that the craft did not break up into two pieces when it hit
>the ground, but through up a lot of dirt when it struck.  As it
>flips and rolls toward the wooded area (in the simulation) the
>damaged craft can be seen as a complete circle, which wouldn't be
>the case if nearly half of it had been broken off.  It also
>appeared to be whole as it hit the tree and was either pushed or
>slid back into the ground (which it appeared to cut into like a
>knife cuts into butter).


So Steve, what you're actually saying is the object first hits a
tree, then it pushed back into the ground...hmmm, interesting
that the same object that 'cut into the ground like a knife
through butter' yet it 'bounced' from a tree? I'm really anxious
to know how that could happen.

>Of course, we're discussing a simulation created by the
>production company and based on a lot of assumptions and
>speculation.

True.

>I would have to agree with Stanton Friedman on the show when he
>said that this information was in his "gray basket", as
>interesting but unproven as either real or fake.  From my
>perspective there are many reasons to doubt its authenticity, and
>I can only hope that some researchers (somewhere) are attempting
>to get more information on this alleged incident.  Otherwise, we
>only have the production company's limited information to go on,
>and they have emphasized on several levels that they viewed this
>as "entertainment", not a "documentary".

>Steve


All the best,


Andy.





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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:53:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:54:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:00:50 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:06:51 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Best as we can tell, the debris wasn't shown to Blanchard until

<snip>

>>>Not only did he authorize a
>>>press release announcing the recovery of a flying disc (not
>>>small, shredded pieces of same)

>>The press release was completely nonspecific about the condition
>>>diversion by Stacy from the central issues.

>Actually, it's a pointless, irrelevant comment by you. Several
t>imes in the press release, as quoted, _the_ disk is referred
t>o. Marcel certainly didn't show Blanchard _the_ disk, did he?
>So where did the idea of _the_ disc come from? It's you who are
>avoiding the central issues..

>>>without prior approval from higher headquarters,

<snip>

>>>How, then, did he manage to issue a press release stating
>>>that a relatively intact flying disc had been hauled into a
>>>rancher's shed for storage?

>> Where does the press release say that a "relatively intact
>>because the press release didn't say that at all.

>You're right again, David. Except that several times the press
>release refers to _the_ disc and _a_ disc and _it_. Forgive
>>tefer to a relatively intact disc, or even anything recognizable
>>as disc-shaped, given all the shredded bits and pieces that
>>Marcel would have dumped on Blanchard's desk. The point was
>>(when you get back to it): where did the _idea_ of a disc in the
>>press release come from, as it certainly couldn't have come from
>>the debris Marcel showed Blanchard. But wait: I have no EVIDENCE
>>that Marcel showed Blanchard _anything_, do I? I do have
>>evidence, though (Pratt's 1979 interview with Marcel), that a
>>soldier who tried to match pieces couldn't make even make two
>>fit together. So where did the idea of a disk come from? THAT
>>was the point, not your diversionary tangent.

Just a "small" point here about terminology. I have read a
number of newspaper reports and documents written back in those
days. I conclude that the term "disc" was generic, similar to
"frigidair". Frigidair was the brand name of th first real
refrigerator (as I recall). The generic term is actually
refrigerator, but everyone referred to their refrigerators as
"frigidairs" even if they were not that brand. I can recall my
grandparents calling their General Electric refrigerator a
"frigidair".

Anyway, the point is that the term "disc" was applied to ANY
"stuff" or junk picked up in a "flying saucer" context, whether
it had a disc shape or not. Hence we cannot attach extreme
overriding significance to the use of the term "disc" as if it
actually described a roun, flat something or other. Just
consider the FBI document as an example: "disc and balloon" were
being shipped to Wright Field. Yet, if we are to believe the PM
(Pro Mogul) faction, this was just a pile of rubber, sticks and
paper backed foil.






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   Sep > Sep 18

                          Re: Brown Mountain Lights

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:39:39 PDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 03:45:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Brown Mountain Lights


>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:41:26 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Brown Mountain Lights

>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:58:01 +0100
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Keith Stevens <keith.stevens@virgin.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brown Mountain Lights

>At 22:10 14/09/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brown Mountain Lights
>>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 17:01:38 PDT

>>Unaccustomed as I am to being a Devil's Advocate ;-]   I would
>>like to offer this as a point for consideration:-

>>We know that there are seaborne algae that glow in the dark when
>>agitated by boats and waves, etc.  I think that it is a
>>possibility that these nocturnal glowings could possibly be from
>>owls or other nocturnals that perhaps have become the abodes of
>>an avian-borne version of a similar thing. Perhaps the air
>>rushing around the body of an owl in flight agitates an organism
>>to give off a glow, and, this may in turn assist an owl in
>>finding more prey at night. A symbiotics development, perhaps,
>>localised to specific areas?

>>This could certainly explain the 'bobbing' in flight motion of
>>the glowing 'orbs' and their swiftness through the tree tops.

>Hi Leanne

>A nice idea but it probably falls down on at least two counts.

>1 - Ornithologist's I am sure would have observed such a
>phenomenon along while ago.

G'day Keith (& LIst),

Noted. But remember, new discoveries in the incredible diversity
of nature are happening virtually every day. Also, are there any
stories in the native lore about these occurrences in the area?

>2 - Owls do not actually need light to hunt by. I sat and watched
>a recent TV Programme dedicated to the Barn Owl.

The correct thing to have said here would have been "From
recorded observation, some, or most, owl species may not need
light to hunt by . . ." Although, as owls are not bats and
therefore devoid of radar, I feel 100% sure that in absolute
absence of light they would be just as blind as you or me. Their
eyes are just incredibly more efficient at extremely low light
levels. Were this not the case they be crashing into trees left,
right and centre.

>It was proved that an Owl relies primarily on its incredible
>sense of hearing being able to hunt accurately in total
>darkness.Remarkably the Owl actually closed its eyes just prior
>to 'strike'.

It is possible that owing to its reliance on night vision, not
having radar, the owl closes it's eyes immediately prior to
contact with the prey so as to protect them. It would be so
intent on capture that it may 'miss' seeing fine twigs or
branches in its path, or see them but need to crash through them
to survive by eating. Also, the prey might, realising its a
goner, strike out. The owl therefore must protect that which is
its greatest survival tool.

Too prove your statement asl any ornithologist what would happen
to any owl should it become blind or be born blind.

Regards,

Leanne





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   Sep > Sep 18

                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Susan Baldwin <sblee@stc.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:28:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 03:42:00 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


>>>From: James Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 18:48:23 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show
><snip>

>>The computer simulation clearly (at least to me) showed that the
>>craft broke up on the several impacts, leaving only that portion
>>showing. As a result, it was not buried in the earth, merely
>>resting on the portion remaining.

>>Jim

>I will review it again, and you may be right. That would explain
>why the craft didn't create more of a gouge in the earth when it
>came to rest against the tree. But, then the question of why it
>didn't break up into small pieces on impact become s more valid.

>Steve

Didn't they also mention that the "craft" had been there for a
while and was discovered by a farmer. Time would certainly alter
the ground around the thing and cover the pieces.


Susan






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:21:51 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 03:39:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 98 12:08:58 PDT

>>Before you congratulate yourself and Rudiak too much, you
>>wouldn't be the same Bruce who 'authenticated' Ed Walters's
>>dubious polaroids to the tune of $20,000, would you?

>Dennis, perhaps you could explain this so that it doesn't look
>like an ad-hominem slur.  I don't associate such with you, and I
>can't believe you meant this to be what it sounds like.
>Possibly you were having a bad day, as do we all from time to
>time.  Agree or disagree with him, I think you'd have to concur
>that Bruce is a good and honorable guy.

Jerry,

Thanks for reattracting my attention to this. No, no personal
slur was intended, and I apologize to Bruce personally if I left
that impression. I like him as a person; I even like his piano
playing. I can see a copy of his cassette, "The Joy of Ivories,"
from where I sit.

My intent was something along the lines of: Well, I suppose if
one can accept Ed's silly polaroids at face value, one can accept
absolutely everything Rudiak says about Roswell in a word, too,
without so much as a backward glance. My choice of phrasing was
indeed poor.

There are significant problems on both sides of the Roswell
fence. Several things don't make ready sense, no matter how many
times, or from how many angles, you look at them.

So, while an unqualified Bravo! of a very lengthy response
(encompassing many controversial areas) strikes me as failing to
acknowledge that reality or complexity, this is, after all, a
free country, and everyone is entitled to their enthusiasms. Yes,
even Mssrs. Maccabee and Rudiak.

Keep tickling the ivories, Bruce.

Dennis






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   Sep > Sep 18

              Re: Operational Readiness - CSETI Position Paper

From: James Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:46:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 03:51:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Operational Readiness - CSETI Position Paper


>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:13:23 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org>
>Subject: UFOR: Operational Readiness - CSETI Position Paper
>To: updates@globalserve.net

>From: Tony Craddock <webmaster@cseti.org>
>Via: webmaster@cseti.org

>OPERATIONAL READINESS AND THE UNIDENTIFIED FLYING
>OBJECT/EXTRATERRESTRIAL INTELLIGENCE (UFO/ETI) SUBJECT:
>WHY MILITARY AND NATIONAL SECURITY LEADERS HAVE A NEED TO KNOW

>  22 August 1998
> copyright 1998
>Steven M. Greer M.D., Director of CSETI

>Abstract:

>Key military and national security leaders have been
>inadequately informed on the UFO/ETI subject due to its
>management under Unacknowledged Special Access Projects (USAPS).
>This lack of information has resulted in substantial national
>security risks. The risk of inadequate and/or dangerous actions
>by uninformed or misinformed leaders is greatly increased by the
>lack of in-depth briefings and discussions on this subject. Key
>areas of operational readiness are thus placed "at risk" by
>these leaders being dangerously uninformed or misinformed on
>such matters as the following:

<snip>

>Conclusions:

>These are a few of the national security and military
>implications of the UFO/ETI subject - any one of which justifies
>a full briefing to leadership on the subject.

>Recommendations:

>We recommend senior military and national security leaders take
>the following actions:

>- Receive a thorough briefing on the subject by CSETI leadership
>and military/civilian witnesses

>- Fully brief CINCS, and develop special ROEs for ETI/UFO
>encounters.

>- Independently investigate the subject and penetrate USAP
>operations related to the subject

>- Become fully involved in covert projects related to the
>subject to ensure that such projects are adequately supervised
>and are under the direct and continuous control of the
>constitutional chain of command

>- Correct and/or restrain any USAPS's covert misuse of advanced
>technologies or weapon systems related to UFOs .

>- Attempt peaceful, cooperative engagement of these life forms
>and assiduously avoid violent military engagement. CSETI has a
>prototype project which was been peacefully engaging ETI for
>over 7 years and suggests that national and international
>leaders adopt a similar approach

>- Carefully consider the deployment of space-based military
>assets in light of the above information and avoid actions which
>may be viewed as bellicose or hostile by extraterrestrial life
>forms.

>END


Dr. Greer:

Please correct me if I am mistaken, however my understanding of
this scenario differs in some respects from this position paper.
I am just a guy in the street, as it were.  I am remembering
what I was given to believe when in the Air Force... but that
was a year after Chris came over on the Nina.... but here
goes...

NORAD during peacetime serves in a  surveillance and advisory
capacity. NORAD does not give  "orders" to a naval fleet
commander (separate service). The operational status of any ICBM
facility is to be protected by the highest level of security
classification (TS). There have been instances where accidents
(I can think of one where a toolbox was dropped down a Titan
silo with disastrous results) have precluded the maintenance of
this information vacuum from the media. "Inerting" such
facilities by anyone intentionally is a matter of  grave concern
and such an incident(s) would certainly in and of itself carry
the highest level of security classification. Which brings up
the question ... how does one have access to such information?

Sinister people within the government exploiting ET technology
without the knowledge of the National Command Authorities or
senior military leaders seems impossible to one such as me.  Of
course, I am unlearned in these areas and merely speculating.

Please comment.

Jim







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   Sep > Sep 18

                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:51:12 PDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 03:53:03 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:53:19 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:24:24 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

>3) The word "belief" is an extremely strong word. When applied
>in other than a religious connotation, it implies firm,
>irrevocable and intimate knowledge of the truth of a thing. That
>is, by my philosophy. I rather think it is possible that the
>show represented some level of factual information but it's
>probability is not "overwhelming," eh?

>Sorry about the "eh," I spent a week in Toronto one day.

>Jim


Jim,

There I was thinking that "eh?" was a peculiarly north Oz and New
Zealand expression . . . :-)

Leanne





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   Sep > Sep 18

                            Re: Filer's Files #37

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:39:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 03:31:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #37


Filer's Files #37-1998  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  MUFON Eastern Director,
September 17, 1998,   Majorstar@aol.com  609 654-0020

MUFON's Amateur Radio Net is on 40 meters-7.237MHz on Saturdays, at 8 a.m.
EST.  A compilation of these reports can be seen at mufon.com or
http://ufoinfo.com/filer/index.html.

FLORIDA

NICEVILLE:  Tig reports that, "My friend and I spotted an unexplainable=
 object
on the out-skirts of town on September 12, 1998, at 11:00PM.  It was a=
 hundred
yards above the ground and the size of an C-130 Hercules, but Triangular in
shape.  Living in a military town, (Eglin Air Force Base), for twelve years=
 we
have seen about every kind of airplane that they have to offer!  Never once
have I seen an object that looked or acted like this!  As we drove by=
 parallel
to the object and in the opposite direction, I slowed down to look at it. =
 It
sat there at the same position the entire time and did not budge or make a
sound.  I know that the Air Force is up to something since most sightings=
 are
reported near a military base.  This is not strictly coincidental!"   Thanks
toTig.

UNITED KINGDOM

OLDHAM: Paul Davies writes that at midnight on June 19, 1998, while sitting=
 on
my balcony I witnessed what appeared to be a laser beam type straight line
between two fluffy white clouds straight above me.  The unusual thing was=
 that
as the clouds moved, the line stayed connected to them.  I took three photos
of the phenomena.  Two of the photos showed nothing, but the third one
revealed a bright, intense burst of light within or behind one of the=
 clouds.
There appeared to be a disc of some sort attached to it.  On further
inspection and through the use of enhancement, the object appears to=
 resonate.
I did not see the light at all.  A photo is available.,40 Longfield=
 Crescent,
Oldham, Lancashire, England, Phone 0161 652 2853.  Thanks to John Thompson=
 and
ISUR.

NORWAY

HESSDALEN: Five people were frightened July 9, 1998, when an "eerie ball of
light" was seen when driving at 01:07 AM.  The green ball of light was so=
 near
the car that my sister had to slam on the brakes.  The light disappeared
behind the trees as it changed color to red," a Trondheim woman told NTB=
 (The
Norwegian News Agency.)  The observation occurred outside of the range of=
 the
automatic camera set up at Hessdalen designed to capture unexplainable
phenomena.  Five minutes before the observation, the camera captured a=
 strange
yellow light further to the Southwest.  One of the witnesses describes the
experience as not just strange, but disturbing and frightening.  The car,
approaching from =D8yungen, encountered the green light in winding roads=
 north
of Hessdalen as it appeared from a hollow by the river.  It was only three=
 to
four meters away, and strongly lit up the inside of the car before
disappearing silently between the bushes.  It shifted to a red color leaving=
 a
kind of tail of light behind it.  The head of the monitoring project says it
is impossible to ascertain if the sighting is linked to the light phenomenon
registered by the camera moments before.  Thanks to Dagbladet's net site,
http://www.dagbladet.no/  Jonathan Tisdall <jtisdall@c2i.net

FRANCE

VOREPPE: On September 6, 1998, a family living in Voreppe, a town near
Grenoble in the French Alps, received the shock of their lives.  Looking up,=
 a
husband, wife, their three-year old child and the grandmother spotted "a=
 slow,
hovering, metallic shiny sphere about seven 6 feet above a cherry tree."  As
the UFO hovered and hummed, the man ran indoors to fetch his camcorder.  He
switched it on and "shot two minutes of videotape, showing the departure of
the object."  The family then telephoned the French police.  The officers=
 took
the  videotape, contacted SEPRA, the French government agency devoted to UFO
research, and reportedly advised the witnesses "not to speak to any=
 ufologists
about the incident."  Two investigators from the SEPRA office in Toulouse
spent two days investigating the encounter.  They took burned branches from
the cherry tree for lab analysis.  In a brief statement, SEPRA said the
videotape was "very interesting" and "useable" in terms of further UFO
research.  Jean-Jacques Velasco of CNES said the UFO "looks as if it is
floating and then moves away in a curious way."  He described the object as=
 "a
round disc, about 5 meters (16.5 feet) across with a few protuberances=
 coming
out of it and a red ring around its bottom."  Voreppe is 240 miles southeast
of Paris.  Thanks to Perry Petrakis de SOS OVNI and Larry=
 a122.ppp.tsoft.com.

TNT TELEVISION PROGRAM: THE SECRET KGB UFO FILES

Alex Hefmann writes, "I was a long time skeptic of UFOs.  Now I am converted
after the TNT television program.  (The three Soviet researchers doing the
alleged autopsy of the extra terrestrial died within a few days.)  I am
originally from Russia and know how 60's Soviet documents look like.  I did
not find any faults with the documents that were shown frame by frame on TV.
They looked very authentic.  Deputy Minister of Soviet PVO would NEVER sign
any such document (like "Operation Sverdlovky Karlik") without a VERY=
 SERIOUS
REASON!.  Death certificates of the 3 researchers (Kamyshov, Savitsky,
Gordeenko)  are VERY impressive!  With 3 people dead -- this is not a joke)
All footage looks GENUINE (I served in the Soviet army plus I know how=
 medical
stuff looked like in those years).  It is almost impossible to cook the=
 tapes
together with all corresponded documents!  It would cost too much money. =
 One
of the people on the tape during autopsy was called "Pavel" and there is a
Pavel Gordeenko who signed the report, and the same name is on the death
certificate.  I am not sure which institute was used for report.  Semashko=
 and
"Anatomy department" are the only the names readable.  However, there was=
 the
"3rd Medical Stomatology Institute imeni Semashko" with an Anatomy=
 department.
This is the only body in Moscow with the name Semashko.  It was signed "in
presence of Deputy Decan" Tolmakov.  I'm now checking now, about existence=
 of
these people.  Thanks to  Alex Hefman, New York

GEORGIA

LA GRANGE: John Thompson MUFON and ISUR reports he interviewed a witness who
saw a UFO on Saturday, September 5, 1998.  The craft was seen for only a few
seconds but was extremely bright white and shaped like a boomerang.  It made
no noise.  The craft was only 60 yards away and about the size of a=
 mini-van.
There was no fuselage just a wing.  A similar craft was reported to ISUR and
forwarded to John by Michael Norris, ISUR's webmaster.
NORCROSS: Elaine Belisha reports her 14 year old daughter, Marilyn Chen, saw=
 a
translucent, boomerang-shaped aircraft on Sunday, Sept. 13, 1998 at 8:00 PM.
"I asked her to draw a picture, thinking it might be a stealth bomber, but=
 it
has a much larger wingspan relative to the size than a stealth."  The UFO
appeared and disappeared almost magically even though it was at close range=
 at
dusk.  Thanks to E. Belisha, 2019 Lia Hills Drive Norcross, GA.

HEARD COUNTY: Also on September 13, 1998, a huge red pulsating light was=
 seen
at 10:56 EDT.  The UFO was moving ENE, just "bobbing," along at 1,000 feet
altitude.  The huge red light dims and grows brighter, but never goes off
completely.  This is uncharacteristic of most airplane lights.  The light=
 was
estimated as 2 to 3 miles away, and the apparent size of at least four times
the planet Venus.  There was also a bluish-white light that remained steady
and seemed diffused.  The witness could not understand how a pilot could fly
with so much light coming out of the craft.  The bright lights are=
 apparently
underneath, because the huge light obscures the plane.  Thanks to John C.
Thompson and ISUR=92s Michael Norris.

ROSWELL CRASH MAY HAVE BEEN A US BUILT AIRCRAFT?

British Aviation Expert, Tim Matthew's writes, "I read with interest ex-CIA
man Karl Pflocks' fascinating and lucid article entitled "For Your Eyes=
 Only"
featured in the September 1998, Fortean Times, FT114 -, pp.34-38.  It seems=
 to
me that the UFO debate is only allowed to exist within certain parameters
whereby;  On the one hand the 'believers' believe that an ET craft crashed=
 at
Roswell or elsewhere and that subsequently the material and or bodies were
taken to a classified location for testing and evaluation.  On the other=
 hand
the skeptics argue, through an examination of declassified documents and by
pointing out the sometimes obvious inconsistencies in witness=92 statements,
that no flying saucers crashed.  They often further conclude that there are
therefore no saucers, period.  This dead end debate fails to consider the
strong possibility (or reality in my opinion) that the US military was=
 engaged
in the construction of flying disc-type aircraft.  Technically speaking=
 these
were only UFOs to the uninformed observer and were in fact low aspect ratio
aircraft.  I fully recognize that the skeptics and believers are not=
 prepared
to admit to this and as a result both myself and the few aviation=
 researchers
who research this area of interest plow a rather lonely furrow.

First, there is no doubt that one element of the reality behind low aspect
ratio aircraft is German in origin.  The work of Alexander Lippisch,  the
Horten Brothers, Gunter Boch, Walter Dornberger, Von Braun, Dr. Richard=
 Walter
Miethe and others was way ahead of the allies.  Before I go any further let=
 me
first add the standard disclaimer; Mention of German wartime technologies is
in no way evidence of my support for right-wing beliefs, so-called "Nazi
superiority", a 'secret agenda of holocaust revisionism' or any of the other
smears and BS that have been put out by a few malicious characters.  In=
 fact,
what is so ironic is that it is precisely because of war crimes that some of
the men above were involved in, directly or indirectly, that their work
remains classified by the US government.  Any supposed UFO "cover-up" has=
 very
little to do with "crashed saucers" and a great deal more to do with the
political and military realities of the immediate postwar period.  Beginning
with work into VTOL aircraft within the Heinkel company at Marienhe,=
 Rostock,
in the late 1930s the work progressed and one of the places that it ended up
was at one of three BMW facilities near Prague.  This led to the development
of a rather primitive circular-wing aircraft that was able, in early 1945,=
 to
take off and fly for several minutes before returning home.  There are=
 several
witnesses to this event.  Film was made of this test-flight and is beyond=
 our
grasp at this stage.  The scientists involved were almost certainly on the
"black list" of wanted technical specialists drawn up by allied intelligence
operatives and hunted down by a combination of FIAT and CAF Teams from June
1944. Operations Overcast and Paperclip were examples of allied attempts to
get hold of German experts.  Karl Pflock uses intelligence documents.  So=
 will
I. Incidentally, these quotations are taken from the CIA FOIA Popular (UFO)
Documents site; www.foia.ucia.gov."  Reported Sightings of Unconventional
Aircraft" Pflock -- dated October  19, 1955--paragraph 4; "Project 'Y' is
being directed by John Frost.  Mr. Frost is reported to have obtained his
original idea for the flying machine from a group of Germans just after=
 World
War 2.  The Soviets may have obtained information from this German group.
(Project Y was a saucer-type design.)
  From a Counter Intelligence Corps region Vl document dated 10th November
1947 (declassified 1994); Flying Saucers - paragraph 2  "The opinion was
expressed that some sort of object, such as the flying saucer, did exist. =
 At
the present time, construction models are being built for wind tunnel tests.
It is further suspected that the flying objects may have been developed from
original plans and experiments conducted by the Germans prior to the
capitulation. Headquarters, 970th CIC detachment, European Command, is
desirous of locating German aircraft specialists or test pilots who might=
 have
some knowledge of similar aircraft.  This canvass is to be made discreetly=
 and
to conceal our interest in the subject."  Resulting information was to be=
 sent
to Air Material Command.  This puts an entirely different perspective on
things.  This is nothing to do with crash retrievals, alien spacecraft but
man-made technologies.  I received an E-mail with detailed information from=
 a
man involved in early radar testing of flying wing designs constructed in=
 the
USA using German plans.  He told me that they had a low Radar Cross Section
(RCS) and were stable in flight with excellent lift.  What is more, such
flying wing aircraft (and a disc is a flying wing too) were said in USAF Air
Intelligence Report 100-203-79 to 'most closely resemble' those objects
reported as UFOs.  Back on 23rd September 1947 the Schulgen Memorandum, and=
 I
quote from a copy of the original, stated that; "It is possible within the
present US knowledge - provided that extensive detailed development is
undertaken - to construct a piloted aircraft which has the general=
 description
of the object in subparagraph (e) above which would be capable of an
approximate range of 7,000 miles at subsonic speeds." Beyond the good ol'=
 UFO
myths about lightning speeds of travel - where no observer would see a thing=
 -
many of the early sightings of so-called UFOs noted a heel-shaped planform=
 and
an aircraft that traveled at estimated speeds of between 300 to 600 mph.  I
take these approximate speeds from reports by aircraft pilots who saw
structured craft and who might reasonably expected to make a better=
 estimate.
Of course, the usual suspects will debunk all this but I think that we're
getting near the truth of the matter. Even more fascinating was Nathan
Twinings' association with 'Operation  Paperclip' and the transportation of
those questionable Nazi scientists to the US. 'Operation Lusty', the postwar
effort to get hold of data on German  wartime projects was, not unlike the
efforts made by CIC staff both during and after the war, very similar. =
 There
was a clear need to control the information about these advanced=
 technologies
and to recover the data and develop the aircraft in secret. So who did all=
 the
work and where did it take place? Initially - White Sands Proving Ground and
Muroc Field.  The source mentioned above did the flying wing tests at that
location.  The USAF was not the prime mover in disc aircraft. The US Navy=
 was
most responsible. The men who worked on the Chance-Vought XF5U1 - Flying
Pancake was often held up as an example of a 'failed' circular wing aircraft=
 -
had high security clearances.  I spoke to a 78 year old former employee=
 living
in Pennsylvania.  He worked on the skins for the XF5U1 and contrary to=
 popular
opinion the aircraft flew, often at low speeds at night in the Bridgeport,
Connecticut area from 1946.  Initially a prop driven aircraft of circular
planform the XF5U1 is said to have suffered from several deficiencies.
Nevertheless, the postwar rush to replace prop engines with jets affected=
 the
XF5U1 and we now strongly suspect that a jet-powered 'pancake' was indeed
responsible for its' share of saucer sightings.  The man I spoke to was=
 fully
aware of this - he in fact worked on plans for the jet-powered version.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, the US Navy was interested in this aircraft and in
fact supported its' development as a possible STOL aircraft from 1942.  The
project went into the black and I have in my possession a Project Sign
document which says that the US Navy had an experimental aircraft built by
Vought.

Document; Special Report - Project SIGN - June 23, 1948, from Colonel R D
Wentworth USAF, Acting Chief of Intelligence; "Suggest leaving out sales=
 talk
for low aspect ratio aircraft.  We will find out their practical advantages
from Navy tests.  It is the opinion of this office that since the vast
majority of the objects reported can best be described as being similar to=
 the
flying wing type aircraft of low aspect ratio, this concept must be retained
in the letter. In deference to the views of the Director of Research and
Development, however, it is recommended that reference be made to past
experiments conducted under the auspices of the Engineering Division and the
present experiments of the Navy with low aspect ratio aircraft and boundary
layer control." It comes as no surprise to me to learn that the destination
for 'Paperclip' scientists was Fort Bliss - on the New Mexico/Texas border
situated close by the White Sands facilities. Chance Vought moved to Dallas,
Texas in 1947.  It was only marginally to do with German technology as the
Pancake story indicates.  The US and Canada built several saucers as other
intelligence documents and reports, for instance the recently (1995)
declassified 'Project Silver Bug' technical report, make clear.  This was a
circular-wing aircraft supposedly designed in Canada (by a team said to
include Dr. Miethe) but which our sources tell us was actually built and=
 flown
at Papoose Lake from 1958/9.  The plans were drawn up at AVRO Canada=
 primarily
as a diversion.  It was here, at S4, that some of the secret planes tasked
with combating Soviet intruders were built.  The saucers used jet=
 propulsion.
The Soviet threat was a constant preoccupation for the US military and the
threat was very real as Pflock will know.  Klaus Habermohl, a BMW engineer=
 who
worked as part of the Flugzeug Special Projects Group in Prague, was=
 captured
by the Russians in Prague on or about 11th May 1945.  He undoubtedly helped
the construction of a Soviet disc and I recently came across plans for=
 another
Soviet low aspect aircraft that would have used Nuclear propulsion.  I do=
 not
know whether this worrying development ever got off the drawing board. What=
 I
do know is that Senator Russell and his party saw a flying disc during a=
 trip
to the USSR in 1955 and that his most credible sighting was swept under the
carpet by the same military intelligence personnel with knowledge both of
unconventional US and Soviet aircraft. I very much doubt whether Russell and
his party saw the disc by accident.  There were many elements to the ongoing
struggle between the Soviet and US military and their intelligence machines
and this is reflected in several texts including John Ranelagh's definitive
book "The Agency" (Sceptre 1988).  Check out the few CIA documents in its'
Popular UFO Documents collection and note the near hysteria about advanced
Soviet aircraft and intentions.  Perhaps the most important and hidden=
 aspect
of this was the increasing threat of Soviet penetration of US airspace via
Alaska.  In any case the CIA was most concerned about 'non-conventional air
vehicles' under development by the Soviets as the 14th June 1954 memorandum
entitled "Intelligence Responsibilities for Non-Conventional Types of Air
Vehicles" makes very clear.  The CIA also had a close working relationship
with ATIC at Wright-Patterson where much of the official reporting relating=
 to
UFOs took place and also where, most coincidentally, the technical report=
 for
'Project Silver Bug' was produced.  Again I stress that the CIA and its'
counterparts were fully aware that the US and it's allies were developing
saucers and triangles.  From the 14th June 1954 document - paragraph 2a)
"....report the use by any foreign power or nation of non-conventional types
of air vehicles, such as similar to the "saucer-like" planes presently under
development by Anglo/British/Canadian efforts."  This is most likely a
reference to the 'Silver Bug' VTOL circular planform low aspect ratio craft.
The advanced radial flow engine version. supposedly of WW2 German origin,=
 was
the favored model and the Technical Report, written in 1955 after the CIA=
 had
attempted to play down the significance of the aircraft the year before,=
 made
it abundantly clear that the development of 'Silver Bug' was not to be
confused with 'science fiction' stories about flying discs.  What is more,=
 the
October 1955 CIA document entitled "Reported Sighting of Unconventional
Aircraft" noted that 'Project Y' - the overall project designation for the
AVRO family of saucers including 'Silver Bug' - wind tunnel tests had=
 already
been funded to the extent of $800,000  thus indicating that this was NO=
 paper
plane.  Let me also make it clear that the AVROCAR hovercraft can only be=
 seen
as a failed cover story.  AVRO, it should be remembered, built the Arrow, a
most radical aircraft decades ahead of its' time.  I have information from a
number of witnesses who saw disc-type aircraft in hangars at the AVRO-Canada
facilities near Malton, Ontario, which had nothing to do with AVROCAR.  They
were guarded by USAF personnel.  All we are left with now is a=
 filling-in-the-
gaps exercise.  This is hardly the whole story but these facts are
irrefutable.  More information on this is set to emerge in the next few=
 months
and as we approach the millennium the truth about "UFOs" is starting to
emerge.  This has nothing to do with aliens, crash retrievals and recovered=
 ET
technology.  I hope that new evidence although I suspect that the usual
debunkers will posit a psycho-social type argument - or more likely simply
ignore it.  Its true declassified documents are very good evidence and in=
 most
cases were not seen for 30 years after they had been written.  In conclusion=
 I
feel he is wrong to state that previously declassified documents contain
within them "no physical evidence of the nature and origin of UFOs" at any
time before 1955.  The documents indicate that flying saucers and the=
 objects
described as UFOs were, more than likely, the product of terrestrial
technology.  Thanks to Tim Matthews.
Editor=92s Note: I have long felt that some UFOs are classified government
aircraft.
My numerous requests for data concerning these projects have been ignored.
The Chance Vought Jet Flying Pancake may have caused many early UFO reports.

FREE REAL ESTATE RELOCATION SERVICES:

As a special aid to our readers, we can help you obtain the best real estate
experts in your area with no cost to you.  We provide free relocation
information and consulting services.  If your planning to sell or buy a home
or land and would like a top flight real estate agent give me a call at 609
654-0020 or e-mail me at Majorstar@aol.com.

Filer's Files Copyright 1998 by MUFON EASTERN DIRECTOR all rights reserved.
Readers may post items from the Files on their websites or in newsgroups
provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the
date of issue in which the item first appeared.

Send your letters to George A. Filer at Majorstar@aol.com.  If you wish to
keep your name confidential please so state in your E-mails.






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   Sep > Sep 18

                        Re: UFO Magazine [US] Website

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:11:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 05:16:52 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Magazine [US] Website


>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:23:14 -0700
>From: Don Ecker <decker@ufomag.com>
>To: Errol Bruce-Knapp <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO Magazine Website

>To All on the UpDates List;

>Hello,

>To any of you that may have recently attempted to log onto the
>UFO Magazine Website, we are in the process of changing web
>providers. In other words, it is temporally down. It will again
>be up soon and will be greatly improved. I will advise on the
>list when this happens.

>If any of you have questions, please email. Thanks.

>Don Ecker

Don-

We can come up with a lot of questions, but not necessarily about
the WEB site (which I hope gets back up with any difficulties).

I know you were in the area last week, according to Richard Hall,
who said you and Vickie were coming over to see the Hynek
Archive.  We're going to try and get a computer into that
basement somewhere so Richard can get on the "net", and I'm
trying to build up another one for Don Berliner.  But that's some
collection that Richard has in his basement, isn't it.

The TNT show was aired this week, as I'm sure you know.  What was
your impression of the footage, and are you going to be able to
trace back to the source of the film that was shown?  Philip
Mantle asked me for a copy of the show, since it didn't air in
Great Britian, and I'll be interested in his impression.  In some
ways I was impressed with the presentation and the film, but
since the producers made such a bil deal about this being an
"entertainment" program, rather than a "documentary", I don't
know how to take it.

I have to again ask if FUFOR CD-ROM has been reviewed yet?
Vickie said she would let me know when the review came back in,
but I haven't heard anything.  To be honest, I'm not sure there's
a whole lot to review, but even a mention would help raise a few
dollars for FUFOR's coffers and help to support research.

Take care,

Steve





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                           Re: A Research Question

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:54:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 05:27:49 -0400
Subject: Re: A Research Question


>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:52:54 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: A Research Question
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: A Research Question
>>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:14:59 -0400

>>Hello List-

>>I wonder if anyone might help me out with a bit of information
>>for a UFO piece I am working on. Does anyone know from how many
>>miles away you can (easily, with the naked eye) see the glow of
>>Las Vegas on the horizon?

>Atmospheric conditions: cloud cover (low, high) or clear?

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I would actually like to
know the maximum distance that the Las Vegas glow can be seen,
which I suppose would be on the clearest of nights.

Thanks!

-Scott C. Carr
Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette





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   Sep > Sep 18

                       NASA's Goldin On John Holliman

From: NASANews@hq.nasa.gov
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:50:16 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 05:34:00 -0400
Subject: NASA's Goldin On John Holliman

Brian Welch   September 12, 1998
Headquarters, Washington, DC
(Phone:  202/358-1600)

RELEASE:  98-166

STATEMENT BY NASA ADMINISTRATOR GOLDIN ON THE
PASSING OF CNN CORRESPONDENT JOHN HOLLIMAN

NASA Administrator Daniel S. Goldin issued the following
statement today on the passing of CNN's John Holliman:

"All of us at NASA are stunned and saddened by this tragic loss.
John's love and enthusiasm for space flight and exploration was
infectious and brought America some of the most memorable
moments and finest reporting in the history of NASA.

"John's love for the space program was exceeded only by his love
for his family.  I first met John during my confirmation
hearings in the spring of 1992.  On the many occasions I have
spoken with him since, he always exchanged pictures and stories
about his family.  He was very proud of them and loved them
dearly.

"His passing is a tremendous loss for all of us.  Our thoughts
and prayers go out to Diane and Jay and to his many friends and
colleagues at this difficult time."


    - end -



   * * *

NASA press releases and other information are available
automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to
domo@hq.nasa.gov. In the body of the message (not the subject
line) users should type the words "subscribe press-release" (no
quotes).  The system will reply with a confirmation via E-mail
of each subscription.  A second automatic message will include
additional information on the service. NASA releases also are
available via CompuServe using the command GO NASA.  To
unsubscribe from this mailing list, address an E-mail message to
domo@hq.nasa.gov, leave the subject blank, and type only
"unsubscribe press-release" (no quotes) in the body of the
message.







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   Sep > Sep 18

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:03:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 05:22:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:18:03 -0500 (CDT)
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash...

Dennis wrote:

>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:11:47 EDT
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>Kevin,

<snip>

>As for Blanchard, there are press releases and PRESS RELEASES, I
>think you would grant. Obviously, he wouldn't have consulted higher
>headquarters before announcing a 4th of July picnic. The point is
>that it's hard to imagine how, after having seen the material Marcel
>had in hand, and presumably debriefing him, he issued the specific
>release that he did.


Dennis,

Walter Haut has given an explanation for this.

In the 'Unsolved Mysteries' feature, he stated:

"I took the releases into town and that was one of the things
Colonel Blanchard told me to do, take it into town, because if
there's any validity to this, he didn't want the news media to
feel that we had jumped over their head and were not
co-operating".

Which, at least according to Haut, confirms that Blanchard
didn't know if there was any substance to the claim and it was
merely speculation that one of the "flying discs", which were of
course front page news following Kenneth Arnold's sighting, had
been "recovered" nearby.

I wonder if Haut could be asked to comment on this point again.


As we know, the then popular 'flying saucer', ergo 'flying disc'
perception was a complete misnomer, based entirely on Arnold's
simile re the flight characteristics of the 'objects' he
reportedly witnessed some two weeks previously.

That the press release refers to a 'flying disc' and 'disc' is
proof of speculation. There was after all no disc-shaped object
which either "landed" or was "stored" by "one of the local
ranchers".

And how could it have been, if the actual object which discarded
that much debris on the Foster ranch, yet according to Frank
Kaufmann landed relatively intact elsewhere, was so different.

Suddenly, it's all gone pear-shaped.


As previously noted, there were, and remain, fundamentally basic
questions re Kaufmann's claims, i.e., how was he able to obtain
an exact copy of his 'report' in 1947 and why does his three
profile sketch of the ET spacecraft so closely resemble a
'Popular Mechanics' article's theoretical three profile
depiction of what the rumoured USAF TR-3A aircraft might
conceivably look like.

The respective and distinctive 'head-on' sketches are so
similar, if not identical, that I would have thought this entire
issue merited some expedient clarification via Kaufmann.


That aside, although not an insignificant aside, can we agree
that if alien corpses were discovered at one of several possible
locations, then claims that Mac Brazel witnessed those same
corpses at the Foster ranch are mutually exclusive?

Or are there grounds for believing that more than one of the ET
crew was ejected over the Foster ranch, along with a sizeable
portion of the 'indestructible fabric, from the 'craft' which
later, surprisingly intact, impacted at one of those locations,
with remaining crew.


I'm presuming it's supported that Brazel saw more than one
cadaver, if it's claimed he said, "_they_ weren't green".

When might he have discovered them?

At first Brazel didn't consider the debris to be of significance
and even when he returned to the area, there was no subsequent
indication of any urgency to report its existence.

Offering further insight, according to his son, as published in
'The Roswell Incident':

"when Dad first got into Roswell it was the weather bureau he
called first about this stuff he had found".

Can't imagine the purpose of Brazel's initial visit was to
enquire if they'd lost any little weather people of late.


We can only surmise what 'kite-like' components of the recovered
fragments reportedly had Brazel and Sheriff Wilcox attempting to
make a "kite" out of them and what convinced Brazel that it was
appropriate to first tell the weather bureau about the debris he
had found.



James.
E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
WWW: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/





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   Sep > Sep 18

                   NASA Regains Control Of Soho Spacecraft

From: NASANews@hq.nasa.gov
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:30:21 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 05:33:33 -0400
Subject: NASA Regains Control Of Soho Spacecraft

Don Savage
Headquarters, Washington, DC   September 17, 1998
(Phone:  202/358-1727)

Bill Steigerwald
Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, MD
(Phone:  301/286-5017)

Franco Bonacina
European Space Agency Headquarters, Paris, France
(Phone:  33-1-5369-7155)

RELEASE:  98-168

ENGINEERS SUCCESSFULLY REGAIN CONTROL OF SOHO SPACECRAFT

Spacecraft controllers successfully regained control of the
Solar and Heliospheric Observatory (SOHO) spacecraft yesterday
after sending a series of commands directing the spacecraft to
fire thrusters and turn its face and solar power panels fully
towards the Sun.

The SOHO flight operations team reported success in the
maneuver, which is called attitude recovery, at 2:29 p.m. EDT
Wednesday, the first time the joint European Space Agency (ESA)
and NASA spacecraft has been controlled from the ground since
SOHO spun out of control and communication was lost on June 24.

"It's a big step forward in our recovery plan for SOHO," says
Dr. John Credland, ESA's head of scientific projects.  "We were
never quite sure that we would manage to make the spacecraft
point back towards the Sun, which is essential for its proper
operation.  I congratulate our joint ESA-NASA team, helped by
our industrial contractors, who have accomplished it."

"This is the best news we've had from SOHO in a long time," said
Dr. George Withbroe, Director of the Sun-Earth Connection
science theme at NASA Headquarters, Washington, DC.  "Despite
the gloomy early days after the loss, we always stayed hopeful
that the resourceful people on the team could save the day.
We're not there yet -- we still have to see if the scientific
instruments survived.  But this gives us reason to hope."

"Now we start a comprehensive check of all the spacecraft's
systems and scientific instruments," said Dr. Bernhard Fleck,
ESA's project scientist for SOHO.  "We shall take our time and
go step by step, in consultation with the 12 scientific teams in
Europe and the United States, who provided the instruments.  In
some cases the instruments have been through an ordeal of heat
or cold, with temperatures approaching plus or minus 100 degrees
Celsius (212 degrees Fahrenheit).  But I'm cautiously optimistic
that SOHO can win back much of its scientific capacity for
observing the Sun."

SOHO operates at a special vantage point 1.5 million kilometers
(about one million miles) out in space, on the sunward side of
the Earth.  The spacecraft was built in Europe and it carries
both American and European instruments, with international
science teams.  NASA launched SOHO and has responsibility for
operations at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, MD.

After its launch on Dec. 2, 1995, SOHO revolutionized solar
science by its special ability to observe simultaneously the
interior and atmosphere of the Sun, and particles in the solar
wind and the heliosphere.  Apart from amazing discoveries about
flows of gas inside the Sun, giant "tornadoes" of hot,
electrically charged gas, and clashing magnetic field-lines,
SOHO also proved its worth as the chief watchdog for the Sun,
giving early warning of eruptions that could affect the Earth.

In April 1998, SOHO's scientists celebrated two years of
successful operations and the decision of ESA and NASA to extend
the mission to 2003.  The extension would enable SOHO to observe
intense solar activity, expected when the count of sunspots
rises to a maximum around the year 2000.  It would remain the
flagship of a multinational fleet of solar spacecraft, including
the ESA/NASA Ulysses and Cluster II missions.

More details about the operations, and about SOHO in general,
can be found on the Web at:

http://sohowww.estec.esa.nl   and   http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov

-end-



* * *

NASA press releases and other information are available
automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to
domo@hq.nasa.gov. In the body of the message (not the subject
line) users should type the words "subscribe press-release" (no
quotes).  The system will reply with a confirmation via E-mail
of each subscription.  A second automatic message will include
additional information on the service. NASA releases also are
available via CompuServe using the command GO NASA.  To
unsubscribe from this mailing list, address an E-mail message to
domo@hq.nasa.gov, leave the subject blank, and type only
"unsubscribe press-release" (no quotes) in the body of the
message.







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   Sep > Sep 18

                           Re: A Research Question

From: GT Mccoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:25:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 05:51:51 -0400
Subject: Re: A Research Question


>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:52:54 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: A Research Question
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: A Research Question
>>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:14:59 -0400

>>Hello List-

>>I wonder if anyone might help me out with a bit of information
>>for a UFO piece I am working on. Does anyone know from how many
>>miles away you can (easily, with the naked eye) see the glow of
>>Las Vegas on the horizon?

>Atmospheric conditions: cloud cover (low, high) or clear?

I have flown small and large aircraft all over the west at night,
I have seen Reno from the Oregon border, Las Vegas from 70 miles
south of Reno at night. By the way _don't_ go to the light, or
you might get your own personal tour of the Nellis 'facility'.

-McCoy






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                      Re: CSETI Assumes 'The Position'

From: Bob Thrift - Institute for UFO Research <iufor@frii.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 21:07:58 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 05:46:26 -0400
Subject: Re: CSETI Assumes 'The Position'


>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:30:12 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: CSETI Assumes 'The Position'

>>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:13:23 -0400 (EDT)
>>From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org>
>>Subject: UFOR: Operational Readiness - CSETI Position Paper
>>To: updates@globalserve.net

>>From: Tony Craddock <webmaster@cseti.org>
>>Via: webmaster@cseti.org

>>OPERATIONAL READINESS AND THE UNIDENTIFIED FLYING
>>OBJECT/EXTRATERRESTRIAL INTELLIGENCE (UFO/ETI) SUBJECT:
>>WHY MILITARY AND NATIONAL SECURITY LEADERS HAVE A NEED TO KNOW

>>   22 August 1998
>>   copyright 1998
>>   Steven M. Greer M.D., Director of CSETI
>>Abstract:

>Hello All,

>While CSETI is in "the position" allow me to insert my un-
>lubricated member for a moment. Don't worry CSETI fans,
>I'll be gentle and I will still respect the organization in
>the morning every bit as much as I do now. <G>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Chuckle!

>CSETI post:

>TWENTY-TWO (count em) freaking pages of rant and rave and
>not _one_single_shred_of_checkable_information_! Greer
>is starting to get like Wild Bill Cooper who goes on and on
>about government conspiracy without _ever_ offering evidence.
>

<snip>

Wasn't this supposed to be what is called a "position paper"? If
so, its purpose is to state one's "position" on an issue. Not
the correct place, perhaps, to go into all of your evidence,
proofs, documentation, or what-have-you. You just state your
views and then exit before people start yawning. (And my
impression is that most writers of position papers would be well
advised not to make them 22 pages long.) But the Declaration of
Independence contains scarcely more in the way of proof of its
claims. It, too, is what you might call a "position paper" of
sorts.

However, John is justified in asking for *some* kind of document
or documents containing events, names, dates, places, and other
independently verifiable information. I would hope that CSETI is
working on coming up with same as a next step.

Best regards,
Bob


--
===============================================================
|     I N S T I T U T E   F O R   U F O   R E S E A R C H     |
===============================================================
|         Bob Thrift           |    Editor, UFOCUS Magazine   |
|    Webmaster, IUR Web Site   |  http://www.frii.com/~iufor/ |
|    Fort Collins, Colorado    |    email: iufor@frii.com     |
===============================================================





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   Sep > Sep 18

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 00:00:08 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 06:05:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:53:16 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


>Just a "small" point here about terminology. I have read a
>number of newspaper reports and documents written back in those
>days. I conclude that the term "disc" was generic, similar to
>"frigidair". Frigidair was the brand name of th first real
>refrigerator (as I recall). The generic term is actually
>refrigerator, but everyone referred to their refrigerators as
>"frigidairs" even if they were not that brand. I can recall my
>grandparents calling their General Electric refrigerator a
>"frigidair".

And now it's just a fridge!

>Anyway, the point is that the term "disc" was applied to ANY
>"stuff" or junk picked up in a "flying saucer" context, whether
>it had a disc shape or not. Hence we cannot attach extreme
>overriding significance to the use of the term "disc" as if it
>actually described a roun, flat something or other. Just
>consider the FBI document as an example: "disc and balloon" were
>being shipped to Wright Field. Yet, if we are to believe the PM
>(Pro Mogul) faction, this was just a pile of rubber, sticks and
>paper backed foil.

OK, the pile of rubber, sticks and paper-backed foil explains
the disc part of the FBI document, now what about the balloon
part?

More seriously, the Roswell headlines came barely two weeks
after Arnold's initial sighting. Are you sure that in this short
time disc had already become shorthand or synonymous for bits
and pieces of stuff found in a "flying saucer" context? Jeez,
how many crash cases were there between June 24 and July 8?

The press release also says that the disc/stuff "was picked up
at the rancher's home," and we know that not to be completely
accurate, either.

Dennis






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:11:48 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 06:02:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 18:57:49 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>I'm sure Dennis Stacy turns all his earnings from writing about
>UFOs over to charity, right Dennis?

Hardly. Actually, I'm looking for charity right now. Seems to my
having published the infamous Kent Jeffrey article, among other
apparently politically incorrect UFO behavior, I'm now out about
$14,000 a year. Hm, over the next decade that would've amounted
to about $140,000. For that kind of money, you would have
thought I could have kept my mouth shut and told Jeffrey to
stuff it.

<snip>

>Sounds like a lot of things beat Dennis Stacy. When challenged to
>come up with actual factual material to back up his Roswell
>rantings and ravings, he can't produce. That's his cue line to
>change the subject.

>David Rudiak

Contemporary post-Roswell classified documents specifically
mentioning the lack of physical crash debris, which you're well
aware of, can be easily provided. Would they convince or satisfy
you? Of course not. You'd just move the goal posts of the Cosmic
Watergate back another five yards or so and ask me to kick
again. No need to know. Kick again. Not classified enough. Kick
again. Roswell isn't mentioned by name. Kick again. Mogul isn't
mentioned by name. Kick again. Yadda, yadda.

As for changing the subject on cue, let me see if I've got this
straight: I originally made a relatively short reply to one of
your Roswell posts and you responded with a post that had to be
divided into two parts and eventually wound up discussing Ramey
and Samford's role in the 1952 Pentagon press conference. I have
no particular problem with that. As far as I'm concerned, you
can get almost anywhere in ufology if you start from Roswell.

I can only hope that I didn't raise any side subjects directly
linked to Roswell that you didn't want to discuss. You'll excuse
me, but I thought while I had the Roswell expert online I would
ask how many saucers crashed, when and where, and were bodies
recovered, when and where, expecting the same precise
documentation and intense attention to detail you've paid to the
Brazel site and Marcel's involvement therein since you seem to
know everything. I even thought of asking for your documentation
of MJ-12 -- or just what you thought about it -- but then
decided that I didn't want to be accused of being a
subject-changer again, which, on an email thread, is just about
the worstest darn thing that I can think of.

In the end, though, my sour grapes got the better of me. To wit,
since you obviously believe the remains of an extraterrestrial
spaceship were recovered from the Foster ranch, amid much
witness closeting and threatening, could you please, please tell
me 1) how many other UFOs crashed (and where) the same week, 2)
from which crash and where were the bodies recovered, and 3) is
this MJ-12 stuff really on the up and up, as it would almost
have to be if your original premise is correct? Documents and
hard evidence only, please. And don't change the subject. I hate
it when people do that. It makes me think they're debunkers.

Dennis

PS: One last, non-flippant subject change. You've mentioned on a
couple of occasions that McAndrew cropped one of the Ramey
office pictures to shorten a foreground stick. I've never been
able to completely follow your argument. Have you published this
anywhere? If not, could you elaborate?






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   Sep > Sep 18

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:11:45 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 06:00:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:19:12 -0400


<snip>

>I understand your first reflex will be to proclaim that David
>Rudiak's text contains no information.  You are wrong.  For the
>reader I am, David Rudiak's text contains information because it
>takes your arguments and ideas one by one and gives straight
>answers to them.

No, that is not my first reflex. His text is full of
information. So are the Randle/Schmitt Roswell books, never mind
that newer information is always coming to the surface,
resulting in some witnesses losing credibility and previous
assumptions and scenarios having to be altered accordingly, as
even Randle himself admits. Who knows if all of Rudiak's
information (and sources) will inevitably withstand the test of
time or not? I wasn't there when all of the alleged events
occurred, and neither was Rudiak.

>It takes more than 2 hours to really grab the 76K text which is
>full of enlightened insights, not only on Roswell but on
>debunking methods in general.  Rudiak does mercifully put a
>finger on the tricks of the trade for debunkers: the "naysaying",
>the "rampant speculation", the "dodging of points", the "going
>off on evasive, often irrational tangents", the "smokescreens"
>and the "usual" one-sided "demands for good evidence" - the
>"Debunker Double Standard at work."

And this is one of my beefs with you and Rudiak. Seemingly, I
can't be just another fellow traveler who happens to disagree
about Roswell. No, I have to be schooled in the arts of the
debunker, as if I'd just spent a summer internship at the feet
of Philip Klass or the CIA. I have to be practicing a trade,
employing all its methods, as if I were an acolyte in some sort
of secret guild. Roswell today, MJ-12 tomorrow! (Although that's
not such a bad idea, now that I think about it.)

It may surprise you, Serge, but I edited a major UFO journal for
12 years. At one time I even thought Roswell was a very, very
compelling case. Where did I go wrong? Alas, I kept reading
every Roswell book published. While the number of crashed UFOs
and eyewitnesses escalated, while alien cadavers and autopsies
arrived on the scene, while MJ-12 materialized, followed by the
packing manual, while the death threats and cover-up grew, while
the Native Americans and the Star Elders entered the picture,
along with the UFO museums in Roswell, and did I forget the
Corso book and...well, I think you get the picture. One day I
woke up and -- but why waste a perfectly good epiphany? You
wouldn't agree with me, anyway.

>>>It does reconciliate you with ufology and research.

>>Please. It may reconcile you with something, but that something
>>is neither ufology nor research. It is, instead, Roswell
>>according to Rudiak.

>"Roswell according to Rudiak" does have a good ring to it. I
>fail to undestand how this is not ufology nor research when, in
>your own words:

>>David,

><snip>

>>That said, the depth and extent of your research into Roswell is
>>truly impressive, and I mean that in all sincerity.

><snip>


I meant it in the same sense as the above: Rudiak has collected
a lot of the available information in one place. That doesn't
mean that today's information will necessarily be tomorrow's
information. Glenn Dennis's nurse hung around for several years
before being discounted. Even Randle agrees that his death
threat story should probably be discounted as well. How much
longer will, say, Frank Kaufmann's story hang around? Who knows?
What other Roswell stories might collapse -- or hold up -- if
only we had more information? Who knows?

I applaud Rudiak's information, although I don't think he has
all the information. It's his interpretation, and unswerving
certainty of same, that I refer to as Roswell according to
Rudiak. And you're right: it does have a nice ring. So does
Roswell according to Randle. I think the alliteration must have
something to do with it.

>We thus both agree: David Rudiak's reply to Dennis Stacy on the
>subject of Roswell found at:

>http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/sep/m12-003.shtml

>is an exemplary piece of research in ufology.  Welcome to the
>chorus, Dennis.  Gee man, you started it !


That's what the WWW is for. I hope they gave me credit!

>Now, is there a reason the reader should doubt your sincerity?

No, unless you know a reason that I don't.


>As for:

>>There is all the hope you want. May the Greek chorus of Serge,
>>Bruce and David live long and prosper. May you stay forever
>>young. And may Roswell (and/or Ed Walters's polaroids) forever be
>>your succour and safe harbor.

>Heck, didn't know Ed Walters shot polaroids in Roswell in july 1947.


Like they say, Serge, live and learn! Personally, however, I
don't think they're nearly as good as his much later Gulf Breeze
series. I think those clear blue deesert sky backgrounds gave
him fits.

>Enjoy,

>Serge Salvaille

You, too,

Dennis






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 18

                   Re: Brown Mountain Lights/Lumonous Owls

From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 05:30:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 06:52:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Brown Mountain Lights/Lumonous Owls


Regarding the recent postings concening the Brown Mountain Lights
and the possibility of luminous owls being the cause.

It would be easy to dismiss the idea of luminous owls as being
unworthy of further consideration in this case.

But you'd be wrong!

Charles Fort noted the phenomenon in chapter 10 of his book Lo!
and my co-researcher Dave Clarke made an in-depth study of this
very phenomenon, based upon his research into the, ahem, luminous
owl flap of Norfolk of 1907/08, and related instances.

His research can be found in Fortean Studies Vol 1 (edited by
Steve Moore, published by John Brown Publishing, 1994).

The UFO subject may be strange but nature and human perception is
stranger still.

Happy Trails

Andy






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   Sep > Sep 18

                Re: Review - Friedman Lecture, Brisbane, Oz,

From: Allan Clayton <aclayton@vision.net.au>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:05:25 +1000 (EST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 06:25:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Review - Friedman Lecture, Brisbane, Oz,

>From: Kathleen Anderson <KAnder6444@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 01:15:43 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: A word about Stan Friedman

>[Occasionally, some messages manage to hide themselves
>in my 'InBox'. My apologies to Ms. Anderson for the
>tardy posting of the following.--ebk]

>>Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:09:15 +1000
>>To: UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Allan Clayton <aclayton@vision.net.au>
>>Subject: Re: Review - Friedman Lecture, Brisbane, Oz, 08-12-98

>>Has anyone else in Australia been to see his lecture?

>>He is actually coming to Tassie [mania] so I thought that I
>>might go along for a look but from the sounds of it, it might be
>>a bit of a waste of time...

>>Emma, could you reply via e-mail so i could discuss it a bit
>>more with you please! My e-mail is aclayton@vision.net.au.

>>bye
>>alf

>Dear Alf,

>On behalf of Stan Friedman I would like to say that of all
>people, He is one of the hardest working people in the UFO
>field. It's easy to play arm chair critic about some of the
>lecturers as I am sometimes guilty about.

I was hoping that people wouldn't take my thoughts the wrong way
about this but it looks like some people have! I think he has a
lot of guts to get up there and discuss such a topic, especially
with the way some people think and act in this world...

My problem with the lecture was that it seemed to be scattered
and spending large amounts of time on topics that don't really
need that time.. An example of that is, the first part of the
lecture (1 - 1.5 hours) was on statistics and definitions (god
only knows how many times he definded what an unknown report
was!). Sure stats is a good way to explain to people that yes
these things exist, but to spend so much time on the same stuff
which he seemed to repeat..

Another example was when he was discussing the Roswell crash and
was talking about how the metal was unbreakable etc, a lady
asked him the question of well, if this metal is so unbreakable
how did the UFO break (which to me was a fair question if she
didn't know some of the theories behind the crash!). He said
that he didn't have a clue (which again I thought was a fair
enough reply due to the fact that no one has had a chance to
examine the metal to get it's characteristics!) and then all of
a sudden he started to point to another part of the map where
they supposedly found another UFO with no explaination of the
connection! Now, due to the fact that I know that one theory is
that there where two UFOs involved in an incident (possibly
crashed into each other, no one knows), I could understand the
jump but to someone who didn't know boo about it, it would have
left them totally confussed...

It was just things like that that, to me, took a possibly good
lecture and downgraded it a bit...

Like I said before, I admire the amount of guts he has to do
such a thing...

I know this is a bit late coming but I haven't had the chance to
read the List for a while so I appologise for that... I'm not
100% sure about the theory that I stated in the above paragraph,
so if someone knows for sure and I appear to be wrong, please
let me know! It was quite a while ago that I heard/read about
that theory...


bye
Alf







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   Sep > Sep 18

                           Re: A Research Question

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 02:56:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 06:48:52 -0400
Subject: Re: A Research Question


>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: A Research Question
>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:14:59 -0400

>Hello List-

>I wonder if anyone might help me out with a bit of information
>for a UFO piece I am working on. Does anyone know from how many
>miles away you can (easily, with the naked eye) see the glow of
>Las Vegas on the horizon?

For what it's worth, I grew up in Las Vegas, and my family often
visited relatives in southern California. I remember one trip
around 1960 when driving back to Vegas and about 80 or 90 road
miles away (and probably 70 air miles), we noticed a glow over
the mountains and wondered what it was. Later we realized it had
to be Vegas, since it was coming from the same direction.

Vegas had about 60,000 people then. Now it has over a million.
The size and brightness of the Las Vegas Strip has also grown
substantially. The hotel signs were absolutely puny back then
compared to the brilliant monsters they now use. My guess is
that today you should be able to see the glow of Vegas from well
over a hundred miles given the right atmospheric conditions (and
a nice dark moonless night). 150 miles wouldn't surprise me, but
I haven't checked recently. I've also noticed in the past that
high cloud cover can extend the distance, since it scatters some
light in your direction that would otherwise go straight up and
out into space. In those situations, you first see Vegas' glow
as the distant clouds being lit up.

Hope this helps.

David Rudiak

Hope this helps.





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   Sep > Sep 18

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 02:11:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 06:34:19 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:30:04 -0500 (CDT)
>Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:48:11 -0400
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:09:28 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

<Much snipping throughout>

>>Brazel's ranch wasn't on the general flight path of the Moguls.
>>Therefore it would indeed have been "strange" for one of the
>>balloons to crash there. In scientific papers, researchers
>>generally hope to demonstrate some effect to a minimal 95%
>>confidence level, if not better. However with Roswell, we have
>>just the opposite. We can say with about a 95% level of
>>confidence that the balloons would NOT have passed in the
>>general vicinity of the Foster Ranch. Again, there is that 5%
>>chance or so of the random, chance flight, passing nearby (i.e.,
>>within 20 or 30 miles), but such low odds do not inspire a lot
>>of confidence in the Mogul hypothesis.

>Just out of idle curiousity, I wonder if anyone has ever
>calculated the odds of two (or more) flying saucers crashing
>within, say, a hundred mile radius of each other, on the same
>day or a few days apart? Or the odds of two colliding, one with
>bodies, and one without? All within two weeks or so of the
>Arnold sighting?

And once again, totally unable to rebut a completely factual
piece of information challenging the Mogul hypothesis, Dennis
Stacy tries to change the subject. Thank you Dennis for sharing
another utterly worthless SPIT (Stacy Patented Irrational
Tangent) with us.

Nonetheless since Stacy raises the subject, here's a related
piece of trivia. While trying to run down some details on an
alleged saucer crash mentioned in Fawcett and Greenwood's "The
UFO Coverup" that supposedly took place in Southern California
and through EM interference allegedly caused the crash of three
military aircraft flying out of Miramar Naval Air Station, San
Diego on March 27, 1978, I was able to confirm the following.
Three different aircraft out of Miramar on three different
missions did indeed crash within 9 hours of one another on that
date.  What are the odds of three independent crashes occurring
so close together in time in nearly the same place during
peactime? I have no idea. Pretty damn small would be my guess.
Maybe it was a one in a million chance occurrence, or maybe the
crashes were related somehow.

Without a statistical database and knowledge of whether events
are independent or correlated in some fashion, calculations of
statistical probability are meaningless. That's not the case
with Mogul. We have a database of where the balloons went. We
know the flights were independent of one another (one flight had
no effect on where another one might go). Therefore we can state
a probability of a whether a flight would pass near Brazel's
place based on surving data. It turns out to be pretty small.

<snip>

>>"Smoky grey" "rubber strips" which he said he rolled into a
>>bundle. Unfortunately, if the "neoprene" had actually lain out
>>in the hot sun for a month (Brazel said he recovered it July 4,
>>exactly one month of your alleged Mogul crash), the material
>>would no longer have resembled rubber nor had any elasticity
>>left. After two or three weeks, the sunlight reduced the
>>neoprene balloons to a brittle, ashlike state, according to
>>Mogul engineer Charles Moore. So "strange" indeed that his
>>rubber description didn't match what one would expect for some
>>month-old balloons.

>For what it's worth, I believe that Moore has since changed this
>to a couple of months, based partly on experimentation.

It's not worth too much, since Moore has been all over the place
on this issue. As recently as last November (1997) on Scientific
American Frontiers (PBS TV), he held up a piece of neoprene
weather balloon material which he said he had left in the New
Mexico sun for only two to three weeks. It was blackened, in
tatters, falling apart, and you could clearly hear it crinkle
like cellophane, indicating it had gotten stiff and lost its
elasticity. He did the same demonstraton when interviewed by the
Air Force in 1994 by Lt. McAndrew. He told McAndrew he had left
the sample in the sun for three weeks. McAndrew compared it to
"paper ash." And in his Air Force affidavit (initialed twice for
each paragraph by Moore certifying his agreement), it was
written, "Some of the material would almost look like dark gray
or black flakes or ashes after exposure to the sun for _only_a_
_few_days_."

It looks to me that when it's pointed out that the material
shown in Fort Worth doesn't look like "flakes" or "ashes" though
supposedly exposed to the sun for a full month (based on
Brazel's RDR interview), but instead looks like a still
relatively intact balloon folded up in a heap, Moore's suddenly
changes his story to the neoprene maintaining its integrity for
several months. But he's clearly on record as saying otherwise
and quite recently too.

>Regardless, one could probaably look up the weather for the
>period in question. Crary's diary, which contains some entries
>Moore refers to as "puzzling," mentions two days in a row in
>early June when a Mogul launch was scrubbed because of cloudy
>skies.

Crary's diary first said the launch in the early morning hours
of June 4 was scrubbed due to cloudy weather, but later added
the balloons plus a sonobuoy (but no mention of radar
reflectors) were launched anyway. Moore first interpreted this
to mean that the planned mission had been scrubbed, but since
the balloons were already assembled they went ahead and launched
to test the equipment.

Moore's latest explanation in his book (based on recently found
weather records from a nearby weather station) is that initially
the weather had been cloudy, so Crary thought the mission would
have to be scrubbed, but soon after it may have cleared
sufficiently to permit a launch. OK, I have no major
problem with that.

>Brazel also mentions a thunderstorm.

Wait a second. You're all over the place. The Mogul launch of
the alleged guilty balloon was June 4.  Brazel in his RDR
interview claimed he first chanced on the debris on June 14
(with no mention of thunderstorms) and that he collected it on
July 4. The press release, some AP news stories, Marcel, Bill
Brazel , and Bessie Brazel Schreiber all claimed he found it in
early July. Bill Brazel added that he found it the day after a
fierce thunder and lightning storm during which he heard an
explosion. Marcel also stated that Brazel mentioned an
explosion.

I have a partial collection of NY Times national weather maps
for June and early July.(indicating PM weather conditions). For
June 1 through June 7 it shows no rain or thunderstorms in New
Mexico. Temperatures in Roswell proper were in the high 80's to
low 90's. Except for June 3 which is shown as cloudy, and June 4
which was partly cloudy, Roswell was clear.

I'm currently missing July 8 through July 10. June 11 and 12
were clear with temperatures in the mid-80's. A cool front moved
through on the 13th. It was partly cloudy and the temperature
dropped to 65, but no rain. June 14 was partly cloudy, no rain,
temperature 77.

Thus the early part of June was mostly clear, with no rain or
thunderstorms, and generally warm weather. Brazel wouldn't have
encountered any thunderstorms during this period as best as I
can tell from these maps. I'm missing the second half of June
(except for June 30), so onward.

For early July, there is definitely some thunderstorm activity.
Here are the daily records for Roswell (again all for the PM
hours):

June 30 - Partly cloudy, 95, no rain.

July 1  - Cloudy, 83, no rain

July 2  - Clear, 96, but thunderstorms and rain in central and
northern N.M. (i.e., in the vicinity of Brazel's place)

July 3  - Clear, 94, no rain

July 4  - Clear, 96, but with scattered showers in central and
northern N.M., perhaps as far south as Roswell.

July 5  - Clear, 98, no rain

July 6  - Clear, 90, but with scattered thundershowers predicted
throughout most of state.

July 7  - Clear, 89, but rain and thundershowers in northern and
central N.M.

July 8  - Clear, 91, but rain and thundershowers in western and
northern N.M.

These weather records (though sketchy) indicate that nights of
July 2 and July 4 might very well have had thunderstorm activity
in the vicinity of Brazel's place. Thus weather records are
consistent with Brazel finding the debris right after a
thunderstorm in early July (specifically July 2 or July 4), but
are inconsistent with Brazel finding the debris after a
thunderstorm on June 14 (his alleged discovery date) since there
was no storm activity at that time.

>My experience of Roswell weather is limited, but, contradictory
>as it may seem, I think the summer is the "rainy" season for the
>desert southwest. When I went out to the Kaufmann crash site
>during last year's 50th anniversary celebration, it was 111 in
>the shade and there wasn't any shade or a single cloud in the
>sky. The other two days it rained each afternoon in Roswell,
>good summer thunderstorms on a broad front, with lightning and
>blustery winds.

I think the point you are making (but never spell out, so I'll
do it for you) is that maybe balloons wouldn't deteriorate as
much as one would expect if there were a lot of cloudy, cool
weather with rain between June 4 and July 4. Early June doesn't
bear that out since there was no rain and was mostly clear and
warm, but I can't give a definitive answer for the entire period
because I am missing the last half of June. Early July was
mostly hot and clear in the immediate Roswell area, but seemed
to have some rain and thunderstorm activity further north in the
vicinity of Brazel's ranch -- in other words, a mixed bag.

>>There are multiple witnesses to this property, several military
>>and several civilian. Gen. Exon, though not a first-hand
>>witness, likewise stated he was told that some of the Roswell
>>thin metal material behaved in this fashion.

>And let's not forget the fiber optics and the bodies!

Which has exactly what to do with the testimony of multiple
witnesses, including a former C/O of Wright-Patterson AFB, about
anomalous metal foil? Just more SPIT from DS. Oh, BTW, as I'm
sure you know, Exon also mentioned being informed of bodies. He
must be in it for the fame and money like Corso, eh Dennis?

>I don't think it's worth making a fuss about, But Marcel Jr.'s
>drawing of the I-beam shows jagged, broken ends. In the Pratt
>interview, Marcel is asked "Any jagged or broken ends or the
>like?" and Marcel says, "No. As far as I can call recall, they
>were clean."

It's not worth making a fuss about, but don't let me stop you
(as if I could!).

>Dennis

>PS: I had forgotten that Easley's testimony involved personal
>knowledge of Brazel's testimony. I'm sure Rudiak has already
>posted a couple of pages correcting me and wondering how I
>explain _that_? The short answer is that I can't explain it.
>There are a lot of things I can't explain. For example, I can't
>explain why Philip Corso came to write the book he did, but
>there it is, in black and white.

Absolutely unable to restrain himself, DS finishes off with yet
another incoherent tangent right out of the wild blue yonder
(SPIT and more SPIT). The only thing I'm aware of that provost
marshall Easley said in relation to Brazel is his admission that
they held him at the base. I'm not aware of him having "personal
knowledge of Brazel's testimony," whatever that means.

David Rudiak





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   Sep > Sep 18

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 02:27:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 06:47:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:31:52 -0500 (CDT)
>Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:35:07 -0400
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:06:51 EDT
>>To:
>>Subject:

>>David,

>>You either have an inordinate amount of free time on your hands,
>>or are in the middle of writing a book about Roswell -- not that
>>there's anything wrong with either of those, of course. Hell,
>>I'm paid fulltime by the CIA to debunk UFO reports, and I don't
>>have that kind of time on my hands.

>>That said, the depth and extent of your research into Roswell is
>>truly impressive, and I mean that in all sincerity. A quick
>>response, then, to some of your points, and more later -- after
>>I go back and read every word ever written about the case, which
>>I'll apparently have to do.

Well Dennis, who's doing most of the posting around here -- you
or me? Anybody can crank out a lot of posts in very little time
if they put very little thought or care into what they say and
are simply here to raise hell and have fun. That's one reason I
previously placed you in the category of "Klass Klown." (A "K"
or two in the name helps, but its not required by law.) Others
apparently have taken to calling you the "Hyena," as you
jokingly mentioned the other day. Aren't you slightly concerned
about the reputation you're getting?

What you're really saying is my posts are long, detailed, and
reasoned, while yours aren't researched or thought out at all.
But isn't this supposed to be a forum for _serious_ UFO
researchers in which to share information? I'm sorry to be so
blunt and ungracious after your compliment, but if you can't be
a little more restrained in your discussions, then perhaps you
should apply as a joke writer for Letterman and leave the rest
of us be. I know I'm not alone in these feelings.

BTW, your questioning of Bruce Maccabee's professional integrity
when you insinuated he was paid off for a favorable opinion on
Gulf Breeze was a new low, even for you. Shape up or ship out.

>>>And if the FBI telegram is so
>>>theoretically important, why would Ramey have had it in his hand
>>>during the picture session, when a reporter might have asked
>>>what it said?

>>Yet another patented Stacy irrational tangent, plus even more

In another post, DS just coined the acronym SPIT for Stacy
Patented Irrational Tangent. To save space, and in honor of his
pithy wit, all such tangents will be referred to as SPITs in
this and future posts.

>>evidence that Stacy is grossly ignorant about the details of the
>>case yet feels free to run off at the mouth about it. Who ever
>>said Ramey was holding the FBI telegram? Please, a name Dennis.
>>Or how about EVIDENCE other than Stacy assertions that this had
>>anything to do with the FBI? And is Ramey now running the FBI
>>as well? Didn't the FBI send its own telegrams?

>Yes, the FBI sent their own telegrams. Who suggested that Ramey
>was running them?

Sarcasm Dennis, sarcasm, to point out the stupidity of your
statement that Ramey was holding the FBI telegram.

>BTW, my irrational tangents are NOT patented-- anyone is free to use them.

That's very generous. But why would anybody in their right mind
want to use them?

>>It was suggested in "The Roswell Incident" that Ramey was
>>holding a press release in his hand, not the FBI telegram for
>>crying out loud! (Does Stacy ever check out anything before
>>shooting wildly from the hip?) But in reality, nobody actually
>>knows what was on the piece of paper. This was also the photo
>>shoot session with J. B. Johnson, and according to Johnson no
>>other reporters were there at the time. Nobody was going to be
>>firing hard questions at the general.

>I was responding to the following paragraph from your post of 8-18:

>>* The remains of a radar target in the photos that don't even
>>add up to the remains of a single radar target, much less three
>>Mogul radar targets (see same photo analysis in A.F. Report --
>>there are only16 feet total of sticks vs. 48 feet for a full
>>ML-307 skeleton). A small pile of balloon debris that would
>>represent only a tiny fraction of the two dozen neoprene
>>balloons making up the alleged crashed Mogul. An FBI telegram
>>and statements from Ramey and Irving Newton that this was the
>>remains of a SINGULAR weather balloon and a SINGULAR radar
>>target, not a multi-balloon, multi-radar target Mogul.

>In my haste to shoot from the hip, I completely misread this.
>The first two sentences referenced things pictured in the room,
>and I started the third sentence that way as well, clearly an
>error on my part, for which you have my apologies.

While I have sometimes misread posts and responded erroneously
in kind (to my regret), I still don't understand this
explanation. It wasn't simply that you thought I was saying
Ramey was holding the FBI telegram. You then went on a real
rampaging SPIT to the effect that if the telegram was so damn
important, then why was Ramey holding it out in the open instead
of having it tucked safely in some drawer away from the prying
eyes of reporters? In other words, you were asserting the
telegram in Ramey's hand as an established fact to make some
sort of SPIT point Or was there even a point? God knows. It is
virtually impossible to follow the "logic" of some of your
stream-of- consciousness rants.

>We don't know what Ramey was holding in his hand.

Thank you, no we don't, though I would love to now know what was
written on that paper. It might explain a lot.

>>>* No mention of any odor to any of the debris by any witness who
>>>may have come in close contact with it BEFORE Fort Worth. In
>>>particular, nobody mentioned anything about the acrid smell of
>>>old neoprene rubber weather balloons left in the sun to rot. The
>>>very first mention that there was such an odor was by Johnson,
>>>who noticed it when he came into Ramey's office. This was AFTER
>>>both Marcel and Dubose claimed that Ramey swapped in a
>>>substitute balloon for the real debris.

>Having just posted another lengthy response, in which you set
>Bond Johnson straight about a few things, I'm surprised you
>still accept his story of a smell.

Why shouldn't I? It makes perfect sense. Ramey says he has the
remains of a weather balloon, there seems to be one pictured at
his feet, which most people agree is probably some sort of
rubber balloon material, so why shouldn't it stink to high
heaven?

>But the short answer to your
>question is I don't know why he reported it and others didn't,

Perhaps because it wasn't there until Fort Worth, no? That's a
real simple explanation that is completely consistent with all
the testimony, including Dubose's and Marcel's that Ramey pulled
a switcheroo.

>if it was indeed the same material.

Nice try Dennis. The point was, I believe, that others not
reporting a smell prior to this was evidence that this WASN'T
the same material.

>You could be right, Johnson could be wrong, I don't know. In either event,
though, I'm >sure the Army AF kept a supply of aged weather balloons on hand
for
>just such occasions. Another patented irrational tangent, or PIT.

A fair point, but literally hundreds of weather balloons of all
types were released every day all across the country.
Radiosondes (of which nearly 200 were launched daily) generally
carried reward or ID tags, so many of these would get picked up
and returned. While most of these recovered radiosondes
generally retained only the neck of the original balloon after
it popped, other balloons simply deflated and gently returned to
earth relatively intact with their instruments. The balloon
material at Ramey's feet also appears to be relatively intact --
a flexible, deflated balloon, not brittle fragments of many
balloons as would be expected from an old, recovered Mogul
sitting out in the hot sun for a month. Furthermore, Ramey
referred to it as a singular balloon, as did Irving Newton, as
did the FBI telegram based on information from Ramey's people
(and no, Gen. Ramey wasn't holding it in his hand).
Interestingly enough, Maj. Kirton, referenced in the FBI
telegram, first referred to Ramey's weather balloon as a
radiosonde when speaking to the Dallas Morning News, instead of
by its proper name of rawin target (for a balloon carrying a
radar target). Maybe that was just a simple mistake, or maybe
it's an indication of what weather instrument the balloon really
came from.

So where did Ramey get the balloon? I don't know. Neither does
anybody else, including Dubose. Maybe they already had one from
a recently recovered radiosonde out in the base salvage yard.
Maybe it was flown in from elsewhere along with a radar target
as part of a previously concocted weather balloon cover story.
(White Sands is a distinct possibility, since they were using
radar targets and large rubber balloons similar to the "20-foot
balloon" in the FBI telegram, to collect very high-altitude wind
data for V-2 launches.) But the absence of smell prior to Fort
Worth suggests that it wasn't something recovered from Roswell.
And that's completely consistent with the testimony of Marcel
and Dubose that Ramey brought it in as part of a cover story.

>Unpleasant odors form very vivid memories. Eyewitnesses at
>airplane crash sites or similar situations where there are very
>unpleasant, acrid smells of burned material, rotting bodies,
>etc., generally volunteer this memory of unpleasant or noxious
>smell without being asked, just like photographer Johnson did.
>It's the thing that usually sticks out most in their memory.
>Yet, nobody but nobody who was in contact with the debris before
>Fort Worth has ever mentioned anything about an odor. And in Dr.
>Marcel's case, I specifically asked him in case it slipped his
>mind to mention it despite being interviewed a thousand times in
>the last 20 years. He has no memory of any odor.

>I'm surprised Johnson was able to remain in the room long enough
>to take his pictures, given the stench.

Oh dear, there he goes off on another SPIT.

>Odd that none of the
>press reports mentioned this, isn't it? It's just the sort of
>observation -- "the debris between reporters and Gen. Ramey gave
>off an unpleasant odor" -- that would have lent their reports
>what journalists refer to as "color." But you've read all the
>press releases -- do any of them mention it?

No, but they also didn't mention Marcel speaking of alien
writing on the sticks, and then chasing Irving Newton around
Ramey's office when Newton didn't agree. That would have added a
lot more "color" to the story had it happened, don't you think?
Instead, we do know Ramey praised Marcel a year later as
"outstanding" and command officer material, which doesn't
exactly support Newton's story.

Nonetheless, the fact that no odor was mentioned in any of the
news stories is a minor point, but one worth noting.

>Please color your response with numerous paragraphs describing
>my mental state and motives.

Your mental state and motives smell like an old rubber balloon,
which, I hasten to add, has no odor because it isn't mentioned
in any news stories. There -- happy?

>>No note in Marcel's record, either, that he obviously violated
>>existing security procedures by stopping by his home with the
>>debris before reporting to his commanding officer.

>>Yet another Stacy tangent, since he doesn't want to address the
>>central point. What existing security procedures were those if
>>flying saucers didn't exist then or now? Could you show us a
>>copy of these alleged official security procedures? And even if
>>Marcel did violate some existing security procedure, could you
>>please provide us with some sort of EVIDENCE that some superior
>>officer like Col. Blanchard or Gen. Ramey knew about it, and
>>therefore there would be an actual reason for this to be noted
>>somewhere in his record.

>I'm afraid this is a Rudiak PIT. An intelligence officer would
>be aware of reams of security procedures -- that was his job. Of
>course none of them would refer to flying saucers specifically
>-- but highly unusual debris of the sort he described would
>surely fall into some procedural category, as would the orders
>he received from Blanchard before leaving for the Brazel ranch.
>Don't ask me for a copy of the orders, I don't have one -- and
>neither do you.

Whatever.

>The issue simply points to Marcel's character, in terms of what
>kind of individual he was.

Another SPIT. Originally Stacy raised this issue to try to
counter my point that NOTHING is noted in Marcel's record later
that indicates he screwed up Roswell. When that fell on its
face, Stacy tried to turn it into an issue of Marcel's
character.

> Let me hasten to add, before another
>barrage falls on my head, that I'm using character here in a
>benign, descriptive sense of an individual's total, collective
>behavior. Knowing that he whittled would also be an indication
>of character.

His character was that he shared something he thought to be
historically momentous with people very close to him whom he
trusted, namely his wife and son. The same could be said for
Sheridan Cavitt, judging by his wife's comments when he was
interviewed, that the Cavitts knew to keep their mouths shut
[and she couldn't understand why the Marcels would talk about
it]. Read Karl Pflock's "Roswell in Perspective," and there are
anecdotes about other CIC/OSI people talking to colleagues. Col.
Blanchard also apparently blabbed some to his two wives about
what happened, plus a few other people. Other base personnel
talked to their families and friends. That's where we get a lot
of this second-hand information. There are many, many such
examples.

So what exactly are we supposed to deduce about Marcel's
character from the fact that he showed his family the debris?
Not much apparently. Like most human beings, including others at
the base, he wanted to share a big moment with people he
trusted, people he knew wouldn't talk about it afterwards if he
asked them not to. That was apparently what he did, according to
Marcel Jr., who added that the family never talked about it
again for another 20 or 30 years.

What did his superior officers generally think of his character?
That we don't have to speculate about but can document from his
record. Blanchard personally noted 10 months later that Marcel
had "superior moral qualities." A few months after that he noted
Marcel was "serious minded, loyal to the extreme ... highly
dependable." Two years later when Marcel was with the Special
Weapons Program in Washington, it was noted that his
"trustworthiness and moral character are unquestioned."

The superior officers who worked with him on a daily basis found
him to be fully trustworthy and dependable. Oddly Marcel bashers
never mention any of this.

>There is a lot that we don't know about Roswell. Or maybe I
>should say that there are a lot of us that don't know everything
>about Roswell, unlike you.

Oh brother! Stacy has pulled this sour grapes martyr routine one
time too many. If anyone is wed to a particular point of view on
Roswell it is Dennis Stacy. There was no saucer crash, and any
witness who says otherwise is lying and of low moral character.
Frankly all I'm asking for his an honest evaluation of the
evidence, something that Dennis Stacy and many others just like
him seem incapable of doing because their minds are already made
up.

>I'm so confused by the existing accounts that I'm not even
>sure when Marcel actually showed Blanchard the stuff.

So why did you insist that it didn't happen until the following morning?
Obviously to impeach Marcel's testimony that the debris was highly unusual.

>In any event, we don't know whether Blanchard asked him if he
>showed it to anyone else or not.

However, we can say with absolute certainty, because it is
documented, that Blanchard gave Marcel a "Superior" numerical
rating for this period. In fact it was Marcel's highest
numerical rating ever, and a substantial jump from the rating
Blanchard had given him a year earlier. Dubose endorsed the
evaluation. Blanchard had many, many sterling things to say
about Marcel's character as did other officers in other
evaluations. He was deemed highly trustworthy and reliable.
Unlike you or me, they actually knew the man. We also know
Blanchard recommended him for promotion in the Reserve four
months later, as did Dubose. Ramey praised him rather highly a
year later -- "outstanding," command officer stuff. He received
top secret assignments afterwards. Gen. Ramey wrote Marcel a
commendation for his key security work during Operation
Crossroads. The very famous Admiral W. H. Blandy, in charge of
Crossroads and the Pacific Fleet, went out of his way to write
Marcel a similar commendation four months AFTER Roswell. Does
this tell us something definitive about Marcel's character and
what his superior officers really thought of him? I think so.

>>>Wouldn't you consider that a breach of conduct on the part of
>>>an intelligence officer?

>>What difference would it make? Did his family blab to the press
>>about it at the time? Did Col. Blanchard or Gen. Ramey or anyone
>>else know about it?

>See above.

In summary, DS never did provide a decent explanation as to why
Marcel's service record shows no reflection of him screwing up
at Roswell, if that in fact is what happened. Stacy, as usual,
danced all around the question. Instead we were treated to a lot
of SPIT, including the little ramble impugning Marcel's
character because he showed his family the debris. Why wasn't
that mentioned in Marcel's record, said DS? But after all this,
DS finally admits that there is no way of knowing whether
Marcel's superior officers knew about it. Therefore it was
completely irrelevant to the discussion, wasn't it? It was just
Stacy engaging in a little oblique character assassination
(despite his disingenuous disclaimer to the contrary), something
he hypocritically accuses me of doing with regards to Sheridan
Cavitt further below, not to mention his recent shameful
statements with regard to Bruce Maccabee.

>>>No indication, either, that Marcel and Cavitt thought
>>>that what they had retrieved from the Foster ranch warranted
>>>waking up Blanchard in the middle of the night.
>
>>How does Dennis Stacy know this? Marcel never mentioned when he
>>first spoke to Blanchard, but of course Dennis Stacy knows.

>I didn't say I knew this. I said there was no indication.

If there was "no indication," then why did you make such a point
of it? You were definitely suggesting that neither Marcel nor
Cavitt spoke to Blanchard until the following morning after they
got back. You're words immediately afterwards were:

"Presumably, Cavitt simply went home and went to bed. Hmmm. Best
as we can tell, the debris wasn't shown to Blanchard until the
following morning."

If you weren't trying to advance a one-sided argument and were
simply exploring various possibilities, wouldn't you have added
something like: "or best as we can tell, Marcel and Cavitt
showed the debris to Blanchard as soon as they got back, which
would indicate they thought they had something important, but we
have no evidence to enable us to choose between these two
scenarios."

>It's simply an attempt to arrive at an overall perspective of what
>Marcel was thinking at different times.

You're a real spinner, aren't you Dennis? You assert a position
as fact, then deny you were doing so when pinned down. You did
that with the FBI telegram nonsense as well. Do you think your
semantic word games fool anybody?

Obviously you were making the following point: if they really
had the wreckage of a flying saucer, why would they wait so long
before reporting it to the C/O? Since they didn't report to the
C/O until morning [Stacy insisted], then obviously the debris
couldn't have been as unusual as Marcel later claimed.

But since you now fess up that nobody knows when Marcel saw
Blanchard, then how exactly are we supposed "to arrive at an
overall perspective of what Marcel was thinking at different
times?"

>Your attitude in your
> post is that no one can question or raise issues with anything
>that disagrees with your version of events, and that if they do
>they are double-standard debunkers.

You're not only a double-standard debunker, you're a two-faced
debunker. When painted into a corner, you suddenly change your
story about what you were really saying.

>There is much about Roswell
> in particular, and UFOs in general, that can only be approached
> by surmise and speculation.

I don't mind speculation presented as speculation as a means of
exploring a particular line of thought. That's nothing but good
old brainstorming. However, I do mind speculation presented as
if it were fact, and then using that as a means to advance a
particular agenda. In this case, you were very definitely
claiming that Marcel didn't report to Blanchard until the next
morning in a clear effort to discredit his testimony of unusual
debris. Now you deny it, and claim you were just speculating.
Sorry, it wasn't presented as speculation, and anybody reading
your words knows that.

>Cavitt claims to have washed his hands of the whole affair once
>he got back to base. But Cavitt's story was also blatantly a lie
>from beginning to end.

<snip>

>If Cavitt's story was a lie from beginning to end, throw the bum
>out of the court room. I don't care.

You should care, because he went out with Marcel and should have
known exactly what is was they found. He's a key witness, a
vital witness. If Marcel was lying, then Cavitt's story should
be the one that's more consistent, better agrees with known
facts, and is better corroborated by other witnesses. But that's
not the case.

If Cavitt was lying, it has profound implications about the
nature of what really happened. He wouldn't need to lie if all
that was found was a balloon crash of some sort, even your very
secret balloon, since he was supposedly released from all
security oaths. But there are so many serious internal
contradictions in his testimony, and it conflicts so markedly
with that of absolutely everybody else, that he is obviously
lying.

So why is he continuing to lie? That's the big question.
Sometimes lies can be almost revealing as the truth.

> I didn't quote his account,
> I simply mentioned his name with Marcel's in passing. And then
> you do what you accuse me of -- go off on a lengthy digression
> about Cavitt's many lies.

Yes, I went off on a digression, a necessary one I think,
because nothing approaching the same standard of evidence being
applied to Marcel's story is being applied to Cavitt's. If you
want to question Marcel's story, then you have to look closely
at Cavitt's as well. Which story stands up better under
scrutiny? Marcel had pretty solid people like Gen. Exon, Gen.
Dubose, Bill Rickett, Robert Porter, Loretta Proctor, Bill
Brazel, and, of course, Jesse Marcel Jr. backing up various
parts of his story. Cavitt has nobody, and is flatly
contradicted by the likes of Brazel Sr., Marcel, and Rickett,
his own assistant. He is also contradicted by every news account
and A.F. version of the story from 1947 and today.

> My only response is that you go back
> and read the comments about Cavitt that Bruce Maccabee just
> posted, without desccending to character assassination,

So let's get this straight. You can accuse Bruce Maccabee of
lying about Gulf Breeze for money. You can call attention to
so-called character issues with Marcel, as you just did above,
and question all aspects of his story. Noneof that is character
assassination. But if I question gross inconsistencies in
Cavitt's story and don't even bring up issues of his personal
character, why that's character assassination. Oh yes, Dennis,
we clearly see the difference between your approach and mine.

> something you leap to when someone dares question Marcel's
> memory or anything else about the man.

There's an enormous difference between accusing somebody of
lying about something in particular (Cavitt) versus calling
somebody a pathological liar, a fantasist, a Walty-mitty type, a
big story teller, etc., etc. all of which have been applied to
Marcel, implying that these were deeply-ingrained defects of
character that carried over into all phases of his life. That's
true character assassination, and I'm surprised (maybe not so
surprised) that you don't understand the difference.

Cavitt is lying about what happened at Roswell. However, I don't
pretend to know the man's innermost psyche, unlike some Marcel
bashers, and would never stoop to accusing him of lying because
he is a pathological liar, fantasist, mythmaker, etc., etc. I
think he is lying in this particular instance because he is
still operating under some type of security oath. Some counter-
intellience guys like Cavitt are of the old school. I have also
pointed out on many occasions that I respected the man for not
using the many opportunities presented him to malign his old
friend Jesse Marcel. From various statements in the interview,
he instead expressed great respect for his intelligence and
integrity (exactly the same sort of stuff we see in Marcel's
military record BTW from other officers) . Marcel was on the
outer edge in terms of intelligence; he couldn't conceive why
Marcel would make up a story; if Marcel said there were
hieroglyphics then there were hieroglyphics; and so on.

The real difference in treatment between Cavitt and Marcel is
that there is a straightforward reason for Cavitt lying (he's
still under a security oath). Whereas with Marcel, the only way
to discredit his story is to personally attack the man's
character and drag his name through the mud. And ironically
enough, those who accuse him of being a pathological liar have
engaged in some pretty flagrant lying about the man's record and
words. Marcel comes off as
having far more integrity than any of them.

> Cavitt couldn't remember
> several things, until his wife prompted him with answers.

Good lord, did you read the same Air Force interview I did?
What did Mary Cavitt have to do with her husband's answers to
the size of the crash, the quantity of debris, whether there
were "flower patterns" or "hieroglyphics" on the debris, whether
he ever met Brazel, whether he went out with Marcel, what he did
with the debris when he returned to base, and his involvement
thereafter? Please, could you give us specific examples where
Mary Cavitt prompted her husband on any of these points.
Whatever prompting that occurred came from Col. Weaver, not Mary
Cavitt.

Mary Cavitt did indeed interrupt and blurt out a few interesting
things, but they had nothing at all to do with the above key
points. She did blatantly contradict her husband on whether
there were any security oaths. Sheridan Cavitt denied it, but
when the subject turned to the Marcels, Mary Cavitt stated she
couldn't understand why they would talk about it when they [the
Cavitt's] knew to keep their mouths shut. I'm reminded of Bill
Moore's story of Mary Cavitt likewise telling him, as he was
walking out of a futile session with Cavitt, that it was no use
-- her husband would never talk about what happened.

Please also note from Mary Cavitt's indiscrete remarks, that
Jesse Marcel obviously wasn't the only one to share secrets of
what happened with family members. This is my own SPIT, but I
bring it up because of Stacy's PIT that Marcel's character was
somehow at issue because he brought the debris home to show his
family before reporting to the base.

The only thing that Mary Cavitt truly prompted her husband on
was the anecdote about Jesse Marcel retaining a piece of foil
and sticking it in the hot coals to demonstrate that it didn't
burn. I asked Jesse Marcel Jr. what he made of this, and he
said he didn't know where it came from. He's pretty certain his
father didn't keep any debris, but his parents were pretty good
friends with the Cavitts and often had them over for barbeques.
But he's not aware of his father retaining any foil and
demonstrating it in barbeque pits.

>God forbid those lapses of memory be evidence of anything other than
>paid Air Force lies.

Oh dear, more SPIT. These so-called "lapses of memory,"
constituted serious inconsistencies with both fairly
well-established facts and the Mogul hypothesis. You are not
only making apologies for Cavitt's obviously grossly falacious
testimony, but also ignoring that these same "lapses of memory"
were then used by the A.F. to try to bolster your beloved Mogul
hypothesis.

If Cavitt's lying, then what was found wasn't a balloon crash --
it was something far more important and secret. The man would
have no other reason to lie.

David Rudiak





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 19

                           Re: A Research Question

From: Alex Franz <alcione@mail.serve.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:12:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:04:24 -0400
Subject: Re: A Research Question


>>>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: A Research Question
>>>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:14:59 -0400


>Hello List-


>>>I wonder if anyone might help me out with a bit of information
>>>for a UFO piece I am working on. Does anyone know from how many
>>>miles away you can (easily, with the naked eye) see the glow of
>>>Las Vegas on the horizon?

>>>Also, if anyone has any information about "Telescope Park" in
>>>Death Valley, it would be greatly appreciated.


Hi Scott,

I found this and I hope will help you in some..

Death Valley:
There is a "Telescope peak" not "park" in Death Valley.

http://thesierraweb.com/sightseeing/deathvalley/dvintro.html

Telescope Peak at 11,049 feet is the highest point in Death
Valley National Park. The elevation gain from the valley floor
to the summit is over 11,300 feet. This extreme elevation change
is exceeded in the United States by Mt. Rainier at 11,600 feet,
Mt. Fairweather in Glacier Bay National Park at 15,300 feet, and
Mt. McKinley�s north slope at 17,000 feet.

BTW check this site with nice pictures of Telescope Peak
http://cartoon.ecn.purdue.edu/~hemann/Pic_html/deathv.html

About Vegas glow ...

It is not 'easily' when doing a serious investigation.

It depends were from you are looking to and how clear the
atmosphere is also if there are no obstacles.

The earth's heat radiation during some nights may produce a very
significant amount of distortion, more if you use polycarbonate
lenses.

As there are mountains between some points you should check out
if there are no fire reports, smoke may alter your sight.
Something important is how your eyes can detect at a given known
distance any glow or shine. Brightness detection becomes some
times a 'Fuzzy' eye sight when viewed from an angle. Another
thing to evaluate is if you are using lenses or yo have had any
sickness which reduce significantly your normal and natural eye
viewing.

There are some retina diseases as Macula Disease that may
diminish your view and are not detected until you consult an
ophthalmologist.

The macula is that portion of the retina which contains the
highest concentration of cone photoreceptor nerve elements, the
retinal nerve fiber elements most responsible for color vision
and for fine, detailed, discriminating eye sight.

My recommendation is that you should do your observations in
group and with enough data so you can be more precise in your
work by exchanging other viewers opinion. Part of your
investigation work should include any available observation
working material as maps, compass, binoculars, a voice and/or
video tape recorder to check and write down later all the data
to get more precise congruent results.

I checked some maps for you and found this..

DISTANCES
On a clear night.

-From...
 Boulder City NV, to Vegas 25 miles
 Good Springs NV, 20 miles.
 Cactus Springs NV, 45 miles.
 Alamo NV, 80 miles (to far)
 Mesquite NV, 80 miles
 Death Valley Jct,CA 75 miles
 Shoshone CA, 60 miles ?
 Beatty NV, 115 miles
 Pahrump NV, 45 miles


-From Las Vegas to:
Henderson (13 miles south)
Boulder City (25 miles south)
Jean/Primm (Stateline) (43 miles southwest)
Mesquite (80 miles northeast) (to far)
Laughlin (93 miles south)
Beatty (115 miles northwest)
Amargosa Valley/Death Valley (100 miles northwest)

You need to know from a longer distance?  Ask please.

What you can see for sure from far away is a green laser ray
pointed vertical to the open sky from the top of Luxor's Hotel
pyramid, it's wonderful.

I have been in Vegas but only for overnight I've never stayed
for more than two days, that's the bad side of my job. I can
tell you something strange, there were some nights when I saw
orange lights  in a triangle area, this is between Tucson,AZ,
Calexico, CA, and Las Vegas. When flying at an altitude of
39,000ft I saw always ( more than 10 times) three BIG lights in
a HUGE black area with no cities around.

Sometimes this lights change their place from south to north
starting closer to the Mexican border, I mean between Nogales,
AZ. & Calexico, CA and moving north to Las Vegas.

There are 13 airspace restricted areas in that place.

I hope you finish your work soon..

Regards

Alex Franz
http://www.alcione.org






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   Sep > Sep 19

                        Re: UFO Magazine [US] Website

From: Don Ecker <decker@ufomag.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:25:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:12:23 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Magazine [US] Website


>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: UFO Magazine [US] Website

>Don-

>I know you were in the area last week, according to Richard Hall,
>who said you and Vickie were coming over to see the Hynek
>Archive.  We're going to try and get a computer into that
>basement somewhere so Richard can get on the "net", and I'm
>trying to build up another one for Don Berliner.  But that's some
>collection that Richard has in his basement, isn't it.


Dear Steve;

Yes, Hall's collection is quite amazing. He mentioned to us that
you were working with him. Without any doubt, Hall must get
online. The research material he has must get online. It would
be criminal if that material stays in its present form. (Without
being rendered into electronic form I mean.)

>The TNT show was aired this week, as I'm sure you know.  What was
>your impression of the footage, and are you going to be able to
>trace back to the source of the film that was shown?  Philip
>Mantle asked me for a copy of the show, since it didn't air in
>Great Britian, and I'll be interested in his impression.  In some
>ways I was impressed with the presentation and the film, but
>since the producers made such a bil deal about this being an
>"entertainment" program, rather than a "documentary", I don't
>know how to take it.

I am close friends with Paul Stonehill. I watched the program
twice back to back when it first aired. It is without a doubt
provocative but without supporting evidence, to paraphrase
Friedman, it must remain in the "grey basket".

As to Phil Mantle, I thought he made it clear he got out of UFO
research?

Several weeks ago prior to leaving to go east, I was on a list
that Mantle sent out via the net with a very BOGUS Reuters News
story that someone hoaxed accusing Michael Lindemann, Glenn
Campbel and Jeff Rense of being Govt. disinfo agents. I
immediately did an extensive internet search via all the news
wires.

After an hour or so I was convinced that the story was bogus. I
sent my findings out to the same list calling it disinformation.
As a matter of fact I was a bit more strident.

At anyrate I wrote Phil asking why he would forward such
information without investigating it. At worst you are smearing
peoples reputation and character if untrue. (And it was) Philip
had no good reason at all. I was very disappointed in him. I
felt then and feel now that this was unproffessional in the
extreme.

>I have to again ask if FUFOR CD-ROM has been reviewed yet?
>Vickie said she would let me know when the review came back in,
>but I haven't heard anything.  To be honest, I'm not sure there's
>a whole lot to review, but even a mention would help raise a few
>dollars for FUFOR's coffers and help to support research.

>Take care,
>Steve

I will write you at your email on the CD ROM review.

You take care also.

Regards;

Don

--
Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with
confidence.
Don Ecker
UFO Magazine








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   Sep > Sep 19

                           Re: A Research Question

From: Donald  Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:21:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:06:41 -0400
Subject: Re: A Research Question


>From: GT Mccoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: A Research Question
>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:25:10 -0700

>>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:52:54 -0400
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: A Research Question
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: A Research Question
>>>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:14:59 -0400

>>>Hello List-

>>>I wonder if anyone might help me out with a bit of information
>>>for a UFO piece I am working on. Does anyone know from how many
>>>miles away you can (easily, with the naked eye) see the glow of
>>>Las Vegas on the horizon?

>>Atmospheric conditions: cloud cover (low, high) or clear?

>I have flown small and large aircraft all over the west at night,
>I have seen Reno from the Oregon border, Las Vegas from 70 miles
>south of Reno at night. By the way _don't_ go to the light, or
>you might get your own personal tour of the Nellis 'facility'.

>-McCoy


Hello GT,

Does Nellis have any type of TCA there or just the typical Air
Force floor to ceiling CZ. If so, what's the zone radius and its
ceiling?

Don Ledger






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   Sep > Sep 19

                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 07:01:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:53:49 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show

>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:27:55 +0200
>From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

>>In rewatching the simulation of the "crash" it still appears to
>>me that the craft did not break up into two pieces when it hit
>>the ground, but through up a lot of dirt when it struck.  As it
>>flips and rolls toward the wooded area (in the simulation) the
>>damaged craft can be seen as a complete circle, which wouldn't be
>>the case if nearly half of it had been broken off.  It also
>>appeared to be whole as it hit the tree and was either pushed or
>>slid back into the ground (which it appeared to cut into like a
>>knife cuts into butter).

>So Steve, what you're actually saying is the object first hits a
>tree, then it pushed back into the ground...hmmm, interesting
>that the same object that 'cut into the ground like a knife
>through butter' yet it 'bounced' from a tree? I'm really anxious
>to know how that could happen.

On the TNT web site they include an .MOV file of the crash
simulation, but it's so small on the monitor that it's hard to
make out all the details you see on the full sized TV screen.

According to the simulation (as I interpret it from memory), the
craft fell out of the sky (sort of) like a leaf falling from a
tree, struck the ground, and bounced and flipped end over end
toward the woods.  It knocked down a few trees as it flipped
past, and struck several trees with the flat bottem of the
craft, which stopped its motion, and then slip back down the
trees and embedded itself into the ground.

The program didn't go into details about the simulation and how
they arrived at their conclusions regarding the craft's movement
across the field to the woods, and I found it strange that the
craft was able to come to rest almost half buried in the ground,
and there was no buildup of earth or dirt that would have mostly
been displaced by it.  Since this occured next to the forest and
right next to a number of trees, I would have expected a lot
more disturbance of the ground with so many roots below. There
was also a small amount of snow on the ground, and one might
also expect the ground to be frozen on the surface.

Another point I would mention is that the soldiers are seen
carrying large chunks of debris (which look more like they were
cut from a block of ice rather than pieces of a manufactured
craft).  Watching them work with this material I couldn't really
tell how much they weighed, as a single soldier struggled with a
small piece and three or four soldiers easily carried a piece
that was 10 times larger.

Someone has mentioned that a sequel is expected from TNT, as
they have a lot more material to release.  It should be noted
that TNT merely bought this from a production company that
probably took it to a number of networks to get the best deal
they could.  Before a sequal is contemplated, I expect that a
video release of the show will hit store shelfs in the next
several months, and I hope they include the uncut film sequences
at the end of the show, as Vidmark did with the "Alien Autopsy,
Fact or Fiction".

Steve






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   Sep > Sep 19

                      Re: CSETI Assumes 'The Position'

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:53:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:01:35 -0400
Subject: Re: CSETI Assumes 'The Position'


>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 21:07:58 -0600
>From: Bob Thrift - Institute for UFO Research <iufor@frii.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: CSETI Assumes 'The Position'

>>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:30:12 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: CSETI Assumes 'The Position'

>>>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:13:23 -0400 (EDT)
>>>From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org>
>>>Subject: UFOR: Operational Readiness - CSETI Position Paper
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net

>>>From: Tony Craddock <webmaster@cseti.org>
>>>Via: webmaster@cseti.org

>>>OPERATIONAL READINESS AND THE UNIDENTIFIED FLYING
>>>OBJECT/EXTRATERRESTRIAL INTELLIGENCE (UFO/ETI) SUBJECT:
>>>WHY MILITARY AND NATIONAL SECURITY LEADERS HAVE A NEED TO KNOW

>>>   22 August 1998
>>>   copyright 1998
>>>   Steven M. Greer M.D., Director of CSETI
>>>Abstract:

>>Hello All,

>>While CSETI is in "the position" allow me to insert my un-
>>lubricated member for a moment. Don't worry CSETI fans,
>>I'll be gentle and I will still respect the organization in
>>the morning every bit as much as I do now. <G>
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>Chuckle!

>>CSETI post:

>>TWENTY-TWO (count em) freaking pages of rant and rave and
>>not _one_single_shred_of_checkable_information_! Greer
>>is starting to get like Wild Bill Cooper who goes on and on
>>about government conspiracy without _ever_ offering evidence.
>>

><snip>

>Wasn't this supposed to be what is called a "position paper"? If
>so, its purpose is to state one's "position" on an issue. Not
>the correct place, perhaps, to go into all of your evidence,
>proofs, documentation, or what-have-you. You just state your
>views and then exit before people start yawning. (And my
>impression is that most writers of position papers would be well
>advised not to make them 22 pages long.) But the Declaration of
>Independence contains scarcely more in the way of proof of its
>claims. It, too, is what you might call a "position paper" of
>sorts.

>However, John is justified in asking for *some* kind of document
>or documents containing events, names, dates, places, and other
>independently verifiable information. I would hope that CSETI is
>working on coming up with same as a next step.

>Best regards,
>Bob

Hello Bob,

You are absolutely correct in your definition of a 'position
paper.' Only _this_ position is one that Dr Greer has been
espousing for at least three years. I have been trying to deal
with this issue (Re: Dr Greers contentions) for quite some time
and so far to no avail. In fact, the closest anyone has come to
getting a response (some answers) out of him came when told us
all that we'd have to wait for a book he was writing to come out
for any answers to our inquiries! And _that_ was two years ago!

There are a lot of 'new' people on this list that don't know me
(or my style) and I don't want them to perceive my posts as
having come from some angry guy with an ax to grind. (Although
in real sense that is true!)

The reason why I go after guys like Dr Greer and even John Mack
is, that guys like Dr.Greer and John Mack could have brought the
much needed -credibility- to this phenomenon that has been so
sorely lacking.

But nooooo, what we get instead, is John Mack sounding like a
New Age priest and PR man for the aliens, and Greer running
around making wild/crazy (and as yet) unsubstantiated claims.
I'm not too crazy about CSETI either. Bunch of uncritical boobs
that put out more disinformation than the goddam NSA!

_That_ is why I get my fur up! Those bastards _could_have_been_
our "credentials" and our "in" with the mainstream scientific
community. All we have in Greer and Mack is a cheezy version of
the Ritz Brothers!

What a freaking waste!

I am an abductee. All of this stuff is important to me and many,
many others. Forgive me for my brashness and intensity but
understand my motivation. This is urgent business.

Six years ago when I first started investigating my own
experiences I walked into the world of ufology looking for
answers/help. Instead I found myself standing in the Center Ring
of a 'Circus Macabre' that Fellini would envy. And, worst of
all, . . .I found that the tent is on fire and the 'Clowns' are
in charge!

I could have walked away and simply forgotten the whole thing.
It would have been the easiest and wisest thing for me to do. I
thought of others who would eventually follow in my footsteps
and decided to stay and work to improve conditions.

So far that has meant having to conk a few clowns on the head so
that we turn down the level of chaos and confusion a little.
Kind of like eliminating static from a signal so you can hear
what's really there.

Guys like Jerry Clarke and Greg Sandow are a part of the 'main
signal' that everyone should be tuned in on. I'm just a lowly
'maintenance man' sweeping away the static noise that disracts
from (makes it harder to focus on and hear) the -main message.-

Greer is a tremendous source of 'static noise.'

Peace,

John Velez, SOS  (on the -Side Of Sanity!)

_______________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
________________________________________________





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   Sep > Sep 19

                        Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:08:32 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:38:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 02:27:19 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>What you're really saying is my posts are long, detailed, and
>reasoned, while yours aren't researched or thought out at all.
>But isn't this supposed to be a forum for _serious_ UFO
>researchers in which to share information? I'm sorry to be so
>blunt and ungracious after your compliment, but if you can't be
>a little more restrained in your discussions, then perhaps you
>should apply as a joke writer for Letterman and leave the rest
>of us be. I know I'm not alone in these feelings.

David:

OK, here's some contrary evidence, no smart alecky remarks or
Lettermen (who I much prefer to Leno) jokes attached, just
shared information. It's only one person's account and opinion,
of course, but nonetheless directly relevant to the issue of the
recovery of strange material and/or bodies at Roswell (or not).
It's also relevant to the issue of how Roswell has been
investigated and reported in the main. Those who haven't seen
it, should find it interesting.

In 1947, Lorenzo Kent Kimball was a captain stationed at the
base hospital in Roswell. I've extracted this from his web page,
'Roswell From a Personal Perspective', which can be found at:

http://www.inconnect.com/~lorenzok/roswell.html

In 1995, he was interviewed by a Japanese film crew about the
alien autopsy. As you'll see below, Stan Friedman interviewed
him as early as 1992. I've not had time to go back to check to
see if he appears in any of Friedman's books about Roswell or in
any of the Randle/Schmitt books or articles (while Glenn Dennis
was being highly touted as a reliable source). Perhaps they, or
someone else, can tell us, as his absence would be curious,
given all the attention showered on Dennis. Interestingly, I
didn't find his name in the index to the McAndrew report,
either, even though he would have highly bolstered the AF
version of events. (Another reason for suspecting that McAndrew
may have been more of a bureaucrat than a master cover up
artist.)

Dennis

[Kimball's remarks follow to the end. They have been shortened
for space considerations.]

ROSWELL FROM A PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE

In 1947 I was a Captain, U.S. Army (Medical Administrative
Corps) assigned to Squadron M (Base Hospital), 509th Bomb Group
at Roswell Army Air Base. My primary duty was Medical Supply
Officer for the Base Hospital. You would think that with all of
the books that have been written, TV shows fictionalizing the
incident, and the coverage the summer of 1997 in the media
(major articles in the New York Times, cover stories in Time
Magazine and Popular Science) that there must have been a great
furor at the Base at that time (July 1947). To the contrary,
life went on as usual. Most of the medical staff spent their
time at the Officer's Club swimming pool every afternoon after
duty hours. The biggest excitement was the cut-throat hearts
game in the BOQ and an intense bingo, bango bungo golf game at
the local nine hole golf course for a nickel a point!! There was
absolutely NO unusual activity on the Base, no base alerts, no
hysteria, no panic in July 1947. Life went on as usual.

In fact, the first I heard of this "cataclysmic event" was in
the Fall of 1992 when I was called by Stanton Friedman to see if
I could verify any of the activities that allegedly occurred at
the Base Hospital concerning the recovery of alien remains.
Friedman had found my name and picture in the 1947 RAAF
Yearbook. My wife, Jane (who was with me in Roswell and who
worked on the base), and I decided we had better try and find
out what had supposedly happened. We did a library search and
later obtained the Friedman/Berliner book and the Randle/Schmitt
book cited above. What we have found is that much of what is in
these books concerning the Base Hospital is incorrect and more
fiction than fact.

In Crash at Corona, Glenn Dennis, a young mortician employed by
the Ballard Funeral Home in Roswell, is reported as having
brought an injured GI "to the base infirmary, which was in the
same building as the hospital and mortuary." (p.116) Dennis is
also quoted as saying he had received numerous calls from the
Roswell AAF mortuary officer concerning sealed caskets . One of
the photographs following p. 70 is captioned: "Rear of the
hospital at Roswell Army Air Field. It was here that Glenn
Dennis parked and walked in while small humanoid bodies were
being prepared for shipment." Dennis, in his statements, tells
of discussions with a young nurse, later identified as Naomi
Maria Selff, who told him(Dennis) details about "three little
bodies" being autopsied at the Base Hospital.

FACTS:

1. There was no mortuary on the Base. There was no AAF mortuary
officer with such an assignment. As Medical Supply Officer I was
responsible for obtaining, maintaining and issuing all supplies
and equipment for the Base Hospital and any functions of a
mortuary officer would have been within my responsibilities. I
never met Glenn Dennis and I don't recall ever calling him for
anything.

2. There was no nurse named Naomi Maria Selff assigned to the
Base Hospital during the period I was assigned there
(1946-1948). I was well acquainted with all five nurses assigned
during this time and none of them anywhere near fit Dennis'
description of the nurse he knew. Further research by UFO
researcher Victor Golubic has determined that no nurse by that
name was ever commissioned in the U.S. Army or assigned to the
Army Air Force.

3. The photograph cited above is of a two story brick structure.
The entire hospital complex was a World War II cantonment type,
one-story, wooden frame structure. There were NO two story
buildings and NO brick structures in the complex.

In their book, The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell, Randle
and Schmitt state that a Major Jesse B. Johnson, Squadron M,
509th Bomb Group, (Base Hospital), was the base pathologist, who
assisted in a preliminary autopsies on alien bodies. In their
footnotes to Chapter 10, Randle & Schmitt claim that "Johnson's
position as a pathologist has been verified by a number of
former members of the 509th Bomb Group {and} verified by the
509th yearbook and the RAAF unit history."

FACTS:

1. There was a physician named Jesse B. Johnson assigned to the
Base Hospital. However, he was a 1st Lt., not a Major, and he
was a radiologist, not a pathologist. He had no training as a
pathologist and would have been the last member of the medical
staff to have performed any autopsy on a human much less an
alien!! He is identified as a 1st Lt in the 509th Yearbook.

[Picture on web site.]

2. After I learned of these assertions, I called Doctor Jack
Comstock, who, as a Major, was the Hospital Commander in 1947,
and in 1995 was living in retirement in Boulder, Colorado. I
asked him if he recalled any such events occurring in July of
1947 and he said absolutely not. When I told him that Jesse B.
was supposed to have conducted a preliminary autopsy on alien
bodies, he had a hard time stopping laughing - his response was:
PREPOSTEROUS!!

3. Major Comstock lived in the Hospital BOQ, located in the
hospital complex. Any unusual activity was immediately reported
to him by members of the medical and nursing staff. He told me
(this was in 1995 prior to his death in February 1996) that
NOTHING of this nature occurred in July 1947 at the Base
Hospital.

CONCLUSIONS AND OBSERVATIONS:

>From first-hand knowledge, I am reasonably certain that no
alien bodies were brought to the Base Hospital in July 1947
where "preliminary autopsies" were supposedly conducted. There
was no nurse by the name of Naomi Maria Selff ever assigned to
Squadron M, 509th Bomb Group. The statements made by Glenn
Dennis are not credible. The accounts in the Randle/Schmitt book
concerning Jesse B. Johnson are fiction.

Note about Doctor Jack A. Comstock: Following graduation from
the University of Colorado Medical School in Denver, Colorado,
he accepted a commission in the US Army Medical Corps in 1940.
He was assigned to an Army hospital in Manila, the Philippines.
In April 1942, Jack was captured by the Japanese on Bataan.
While a prisoner of war, primarily at the Cabanatuan prison
camp, he was credited with saving the lives of many fellow
prisoners. He was released from prison in February 1945 and was
later decorated for heroism. I served under then Major Comstock
when he commanded Squdron M, 509th Bomb Group at RAAF, New
Mexico from 1946-1948. Later, after two promotions, Colonel
Comstock was assigned to the Surgeon's Office, Hq., Strategic
Air Command, Offut AFB, Nebraska where I had many contacts with
him during my assignments to SAC organizations at Ellsworth AFB,
Rapid City,So. Dakota; Hq. 8th Air Force, Carswell AFB, Ft.
Worth, Texas and Westover AFB, Massacheusetts; and Hq. 7th Air
Division, South Ruislip and High Wycombe, England.

My wife, Jane, and I knew Jack very well and considered him a
good friend. He was one of the most honest and conscientious
officers I knew during my 20 years of service. In all of our
travels together and there were many, he never once mentioned
any unusual "incident" as having occurred in Roswell in 1947. It
is inconceivable that any alien bodies could have been brought
to the Base Hospital at that time without his knowledge. It just
did NOT happen.

Major General William H. Blanchard, USAF (1916-1966) (This photo
[on web site] was taken when Gen Blanchard was Commander, 7th
Air Division, (SAC), South Ruislip, England - 1958)

In 1947, the 509th Bomb Group (SAC) was commanded by then
Colonel William H. Blanchard, a 1938 graduate of the Military
Academy at West Point. He completed flight training at Kelly
Field, Texas and in 1943 was assigned to the expanding B-29
heavy bomber program. He led a flight of heavy bombing planes
from the United States to China and flew combat missions against
Japanese Pacific outposts and against Japanese home islands
until the surrender of the Imperial Japanese forces in August,
1945.

After World War II, Colonel Blanchard commanded the 509th Bomb
Group during the Bikini atom bomb tests and then at Roswell, New
Mexico. He also commanded the then formed 509th Bomb Wing at the
newly named Walker Air Force Base, Roswell, New Mexico from
1951-1953. He was assigned to Headquarters, Strategic Air
Command from 1953 to 1957; then he was assigned to command the
7th Air Division (SAC), at South Ruislip and High Wycombe in the
United Kingdom from 1957 to 1960. In 1963 he was named Inspector
General of the Air Force then served as Deputy Chief of Staff of
the Air Force for Plans and Requirements until 1965 when he was
appointed Vice Chief of Staff for the Air Force in the grade of
Lt. General. He suffered a heart attack at a Pentagon meeting in
May 1966 and died without regaining consciousness. He was 50
years old.

General Blanchard was the holder of the Silver Star, three
Legion of Merit medals, two Distinguished Flying Crosses, two
Air Medals, a Bronze Star and the Distinguished Service Medal.

I served under General Blanchard's command with the 509th Bomb
Group (1946-1948) and when he commanded the 7th Air Division in
England (1957-1960). My assignment in the 7th Air Division was
as Executive Officer to the Command Surgeon. I was promoted to
the grade of Lt. Colonel during this assignment. As such I
attended most 7th AD staff meetings and on a number of occasions
I flew with General Blanchard on inspection trips of SAC units
then based in various parts of England, Spain and North Africa.

This summary of General Blanchard's career and my assignments
under his command are noted here for the following reason:

I got to know General Blanchard very well as an officer under
his command at Roswell AAF and with the 7th Air Division. He
was, as his record surely reflects, an outstanding officer, who
was highly respected. According to Lt. Haut's testimony about
the event, Colonel Blanchard ordered him to issue a press
release announcing that a "flying disk" ha[d] been recovered.
While I am sure this is how Lt. Haut remembers it, I would argue
that this not the action that a responsible commander would have
taken given the importance of such a discovery. He would have
first reported the fact to his commander, General Ramey, at Hq,
8th Air Force. Also, if Colonel Blanchard had believed that this
"finding" was of such magnitude it is highly unlikely that he
would have delegated the responsibility of transporting the
debris to others. He would probably [have] done so himself. And
he surely would have avoided any publicity until he knew what he
was dealing with.

Those of us who served in the 509th Bomb Group at the time had
considerable pride in our unit and respected our commanders. I
believe we would have acted responsibly and promptly if there
had been such a "cataclysmic event." The accusations that any of
us have been involved in some sort of massive cover-up is
ludicrous for one simple reason: Nothing occurred to cover up!






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   Sep > Sep 19

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Karl T. Pflock Ktperehwon@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:35:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:50:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:03:32 -0400
>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

Greetings James And Fellow List Slaves --

>And how could it have been, if the actual object which discarded
>that much debris on the Foster ranch, yet according to Frank
>Kaufmann landed relatively intact elsewhere, was so different.

>Suddenly, it's all gone pear-shaped.

I'd vowed not to get into this, but...

Setting aside the issue of whether or not the use of the terms
"flying disc/disk" and "flying saucer" was a "complete misnomer"
based exclusively on Arnold's descriptions (it wasn't),* I offer
this in re Frank Kaufmann's description of the shape of the
relatively intact whatever:  Originally, as an unnamed former
intelligence type at Roswell AAF and then as "Joseph Osborne,"
Kaufmann described and sketched a classic, disk-shaped flying
saucer with a small dome "about 30 feet in diameter" at a crash
site "away from the debris field, at a separate site where
bodies were located."  See Randle and Schmitt's 'UFO Crash At
Roswell', ' CUFOS' The Roswell Report: A Historical
Perspective' (including Don Schmitt's drawings based upon
Kaufmann's descriptions and sketch), and my 'Roswell In
Perspective'.

Unsurprisingly, the dramatic shape shift in Kaufmann's tales has
never been addressed satisfactorily by either himself or his
champions.

 -- Cheers, KARL, F.J.S.

  * Kudos to James and Bruce Maccabee for pointing out that, in
1947 (and, in fact, for years after) these terms were used
generically by the press to cover anything weird reported in the
skies.





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   Sep > Sep 20

                          Re: Brown Mountain Lights

From: Keith Stevens <keith.stevens@virgin.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 20:54:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:11:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Brown Mountain Lights


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Brown Mountain Lights
>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:39:39 PDT

Hi Leanne

>The correct thing to have said here would have been "From
>recorded observation, some, or most, owl species may not need
>light to hunt by . . ." Although, as owls are not bats and
>therefore devoid of radar, I feel 100% sure that in absolute
>absence of light they would be just as blind as you or me. Their
>eyes are just incredibly more efficient at extremely low light
>levels. Were this not the case they be crashing into trees left,
>right and centre.

Fair point,despite having very good eyesight, in absolute
darkness an Owl is just as blind as you and I.However an Owl has
a few additional 'aids' in its favour. Most if not all owls have
a 'Facial Disc'composed of short stiff feathers.

In some species of Owl this is very pronounced ie The Barn Owl.
In others its less of an obvious feature.

These 'Disc's' are used to channel sound to its ear
orifices,which unlike the human ear,for example, are offset.

By using these aids an Owl has the ability to magnify and then
detect the minute difference in time it takes for a sound to
reach one 'ear' and then the other. There by locating and
precisely positioning its prey.Under laboratory conditions it
has been shown to locate, position and accurately strike its
prey in total darkness.

That is unless an Owl can see in the infra red part of the
spectrum.(I have never read or heard of any research suggesting
Owls can)The actual film that I saw had been  shot using this
lighting mode.

Bats, by the way, hunt using sound echo location not radar,some
species also have very good eye sight.Small points but valid.

>It is possible that owing to its reliance on night vision, not
>having radar, the owl closes it's eyes immediately prior to
>contact with the prey so as to protect them. It would be so
>intent on capture that it may 'miss' seeing fine twigs or
>branches in its path, or see them but need to crash through them
>to survive by eating. Also, the prey might, realising its a
>goner, strike out. The owl therefore must protect that which is
>its greatest survival tool.

Exactly.I should of explained the point more fully.I was trying
to keep the answer simple and not mislead.

>Too prove your statement ask any ornithologist what would happen
>to any owl should it become blind or be born blind.

Any owl that is unfortunate enough to fall blind, through any
reason, would die. Most owls hunt from a perch or in flight.
Some species of Fish Owl do hunt from the ground using river or
stream banks occasionally even wading. As you rightly point out
a blind Owl could not fly safely,neither could it find a perch
to hunt from or,just as important to its survival, roost in
safety.

Having just read <Andy Roberts> reply to the list perhaps
luminous Owls do exist after all! ;)

If you require any further information regarding Owl 'Source
References' contact me off the list. I do not really want to
digress too far from the lists main purpose.

Regards





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   Sep > Sep 20

                           Re: A Research Question

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:54:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:29:10 -0400
Subject: Re: A Research Question


>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: A Research Question
>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:14:59 -0400

>Hello List-

>I wonder if anyone might help me out with a bit of information
>for a UFO piece I am working on. Does anyone know from how many
>miles away you can (easily, with the naked eye) see the glow of
>Las Vegas on the horizon?

For what it's worth, I've heard that the spotlight on the top of
the pyramid-shaped Luxor casino can be seen by pilots landing in
Los Angeles.

This is anecdotal data, which came to me from George Knapp, the
Vegas newscaster and UFO researcher.

Greg Sandow







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   Sep > Sep 20

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: bourdais gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:21:18 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:25:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:00:50 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


In his long reply to David Rudiak, Mr Stacy repeats at least
twice a very relevant question: "How did Blanchard look at what
Marcel had and then issue a press release referring to 'the
disc'?"

That question is a very good introduction to the Roswell
problem, and it has been discussed a thousand times already. A
simple starting point is to suppose that, yes, they had found an
alien craft, or a "flying disc" as it was called then! Mr
Stacy, apparently, will not consider that angle. He prefers this
story:

Colonel Blanchard was convinced by Major Marcel that the Mogul
balloon debris he had brought to him was from a flying disc. Did
Marcel hypnotize him, or what? And Cavitt, was he hypnotized
too? Or he was not at the report? Had he failed to wake up,
after an exhausting day gathering the balloon debris?

Again, Cavitt, the only living witness of the retrieval
operation, does not remember at all any Mogul debris. In his
interview with Colonel Weaver, he actually gives indirectly his
opinion about the Mogul story, when talking about Karl Pflock:
"our best debunker"!

What a convincing story!

As for the reason why Blanchard issued the press release,
several possible explanations have been proposed. I even
proposed one version in previous messages on this list. It is
not an impossible question, contrary to what Mr Stacy repeats
again and again!

Gildas Bourdais






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   Sep > Sep 20

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:28:07 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:58:58 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 02:11:32 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:30:04 -0500 (CDT)
>>Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:48:11 -0400
>>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:09:28 EDT
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

><Much snipping throughout>


I have just come back on the list, obviously having missed a
splendid paper by Dave Rudiak on Roswell..

I just wanted to point out that the odds of a mid air collision
between 2 saucers were pretty good since according to Ted
Bloecher's report 40% of the 850+ sightings he recorded for the
wave of l947 involved more than one object seen at a time.

Think of a pilot and a wingman. If they ran into a totally
unexpected lightning bolt or a radar beam which we know was on
because of an anticipated V-2 launch with data being required
72,48,24,4 hours before launch, then the guidance or propulsion
system of one or both might have been temprarily disrupted.

I am personally convinced that were indeed 2 sets of bodies, one
in the Plains, and one set a few miles from the Brazel debris
field.

The first would never have been brought to Roswell, the latter
as described by the Photographer I met with and presumably the
smelly ones brought to Roswell as noted by Glenn Dennis.

One description of the gash in the side of the Plains saucer was
like two parentheses face to face.

Sounds like 2 saucers colliding.

Re the statistics argument, please note that only 1 in 10,000
males has hemophilia. But half the sons of a female carrier will
have the disease... because the events aren't random or
independent.

Pilot and wingman fly close to each other.

STF






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                        Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:15:45 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:43:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al


David et al:

Here is some more contrary evidence, or shared information, if
you prefer. While I=92m sure you=92re already aware of it, everyone
else may not be.

The following speaks directly to the issue of whether or not
there were any contemporary documents that would indicate
whether strange material and/or bodies were recovered (or not)
at Roswell. I=92ve taken it from Timothy Printy=92s huge site on
Roswell because it succinctly summarizes the known declassified
documents we do have, and because as a current Senior Chief
Petty Officer, the author is conversant with military procedure.

Printy is a 20-year Navy veteran, mostly aboard nuclear
submarines. He is a self-acknowledged Roswell skeptic, but his
arguments obviously stand or fall of their own merit, as do the
original documents themselves. I=92ve enclosed this excerpt
because his views regarding existing known documents reflect my
own. And again it directly addresses the issue of how Roswell
has been investigated, interpreted, and reported. Printy=92s
entire Roswell site, well worth anyone=92s perusal, can be found
at:

http://members.aol.com/TPrinty/rwell.html

I=92m interested in knowing how Rudiak et al manage to tap dance
around these documents so breezily. The selection has been
edited for brevity.

And while Rudiak is no doubt aware of the following URLs, others
on the list may not be. In the interest of shared information,
then, the two recent AF Roswell reports can be found as follows:

First Air Force Report:
http://www.dtic.mil/stinet/special/index1.html

Second Air Force Report:
http://www.dtic.mil/stinet/roswell/

Dennis

[All comments from here to the end are Printy=92s.]

THE AIR FORCE DOCUMENTS
By Timothy Printy, copyright 1997

The GAO found no evidence of a saucer crash at Roswell. The Air
Force has produced documentation in the past that indicated they
were very interested in obtaining one of these maneuverable
craft. One might say that the USAF had placed a want ad that may
have read,

WANTED: One flying saucer in operable condition. No questions
asked. Contact USAF.

The fact is, the USAF did not know what the flying saucers were
and did not know how to defend US skies from this potential
threat. General Nathan F. Twining described this in [a] SECRET
letter from the Air Material Command (Wright-Patterson AFB where
the saucer supposedly went for analysis) that was dated
September 23, 1947 (less than three months after Roswell). The
subject of this letter was, "AMC Opinion Concerning Flying
Saucers" [1]. In this memo, Twining concluded [2]:

"The phenomenon reported is something real and not visionary or
fictitious."

However, he goes on to say [3],

"There is a possibility that some of the incidents may be caused
by natural phenomena, such as meteors."

Towards the end of the memo, he states the following [4]:

h. Due consideration must be given the following:-

1. The possibility that these objects are of domestic origin =96
the product of some high security project no[t] know[n] to
AC/AS-2 or this command.

2. The LACK OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE IN THE SHAPE OF A CRASH
RECOVERED EXHIBITS (My Emphasis) which would undeniably prove
the existence of these objects.

3. The possibility that some foreign nation has a form of
propulsion possibly nuclear, which is outside of our domestic
knowledge.

In other words, "The saucers exist but we are not sure what they
are". Does this sound like a man who had in his possession an
actual crashed saucer? It is also interesting to note that the
letter never states that the objects are suspected to be from
outer space. All the authors quote this document as an
indication that flying saucers were real. However, in "The
Roswell Incident" [5], "UFO Crash at Roswell" [6], and "Crash at
Corona" [7], all the authors omit the section (h) above! Talk
about your cover-ups! This is a purposeful omission on the part
of the authors to only tell one version of the story. They prey
on the gullibility of the reader not to investigate further.

In 1953, Captain Edward Ruppelt, head of project Blue Book, gave
a SECRET briefing to the Air Defense Command [8]. In this
briefing, Ruppelt stated [9],

"However, there is no =96 and I want to emphasize and repeat the
word no =96 evidence of this in any report the Air Force has
received...WE HAVE NEVER PICKED UP ANY =91HARDWARE.=92 (My emphasis)
By that we mean any pieces, parts, whole articles, or anything
that would indicate an unknown material or object."

Another SECRET briefing paper, dated August 15, states [10],

"Finally, no debris or material evidence has ever been recovered
following an unexplained sighting."

In a SECRET briefing to the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board
given on March 17 and 18, 1948 (less than 8 months after
Roswell), Colonel McCoy states [11],

"... I CAN=92T EVEN TELL YOU HOW MUCH WE WOULD GIVE TO HAVE ONE OF
THOSE CRASH IN AN AREA SO THAT WE COULD RECOVER WHATEVER THEY
ARE (My Emphasis)."

Does it sound like Colonel McCoy (who was Chief of Intelligence
at AMC) had in his possession a crashed saucer? On November 8,
1948, Colonel McCoy stated in a SECRET letter to General Cabell
(Director of USAF intelligence) [12],

"...the exact nature of these objects cannot be established
until physical evidence, SUCH AS THAT WHICH WOULD RESULT FROM A
CRASH (My emphasis), has been obtained."

In the June 20, 1997 issue of "Saucer Smear" magazine [13],
another quote from Colonel McCoy appears. This too is from a
SECRET memo to the CIA, dated October 7, 1948 [14].

"This Headquarters is currently engaged in an intelligence
investigation of all reported unidentified aerial phenomena. TO
DATE, NO CONCRETE EVIDENCE AS TO THE EXACT IDENTITY OF ANY OF
THE REPORTED OBJECTS HAS BEEN RECEIVED (My Emphasis). Similarly,
the origin of the so-called `flying discs' remains obscure. The
possibility exists that some of the sighted objects are of
domestic origin... Your cooperation... might greatly assist in
identifying our own domestic developments from possible inimical
foreign achievements."

Kevin Randle spends a good amount of time trying to explain all
these statements away in "The Randle Report". He states Twining
would not include references to Roswell in his letter because,
"...the men who needed to know about the crash already did
know." [15] As for the McCoy statements, Randle states, "It
seems to me that McCoy might have been actively attempting to
divert attention."[16] In both cases, he makes it a point that
the information was very compartmentalized and
meetings/memos/letters classified only SECRET would not mention
Roswell. However, what Randle fails to understand is that these
military men would be making false official statements. This is
a punishable offense under military law. Why would these men
make such statements to their superiors and endanger their
careers? They could simply state nothing concerning physical
evidence. Thus they would not be lying. Randle stretches his
reasoning to the limit. As a former military man, he should
understand that it is (and was) extremely important to inform
one=92s superiors of information. This way, the superior could
make a proper decision and also would have to accept
responsibility. Randle also must feel that McCoy and Twining had
precognitive abilities and realize that the general public would
be reading their SECRET statements 40-50 years later. According
to his line of reasoning, McCoy/Twining were not making
statements to the individuals in the briefing or addressed in
the letter, but to the future public instead. Randle=92s
statements might sell to the gullible, non-military person on
the street but for a military member, this is pure hogwash.

[1] Peter Brookesmith, UFO: The Government Files (New York:
    Barnes & Nobles books, 1996), p. 22
[2] ibid.
[3] ibid., p. 23
[4] ibid.
[5] Charles Berlitz and William Moore, The Roswell Incident (New
    York: Berkley Books, 1988), p. 156
[6] Kevin Randle and Donald Schmitt, UFO Crash at Roswell (New
    York: Avon Books, 1991), p. 108
[7] Stanton Friedman and Don Berlinner, Crash at Corona (New
    York: Marlowe & Company 1997), p. 24-25
[8] Kendrick Frazier, Barry Karr, and Joe Nickell ed, UFO
    Invasion (Amherst, New York: Prometheus Books, 1997),
    p. 69-70
[9] ibid., p. 70
[10] ibid.
[11] Kevin Randle, The Randle Report: UFO's in the 90's (New
     York: M. Evans and Company inc., 1997), p. 194-195
[12] ibid., p. 195
[13] James Moseley, 'Saucer Smear Magazine'
     ( http://www.mcs.com/~kvg/smear.htm )
[14] ibid.
[15] Kevin Randle, The Randle Report: UFOs in the 90's (New
     York: M. Evans and Company inc., 1997), p. 196
[16] ibid., p. 197







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   Sep > Sep 20

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:42:07 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:36:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Subj: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>Date:98-09-14 00:33:22 EDT
>From:updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
>To:updates@globalserve.net

>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 98 15:10:33 PDT

>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 23:15:19 -0500 (CDT)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 98 10:01:00 PDT

>>A number of official documents relevant to Roswell _have_ been
>>issued, as you well know.

>I guess I don't know this, Dennis, well or otherwise. I've seen
>documents that you anti-Roswell advocates want us to believe are
>relevant, because they serve your particular interpretation.
>They do not, however, refer directly to the still-unexplained
>and -unidentified object or objects that came down in New Mexico
>in early July 1947. Until such real documents emerge, it is
>unlikely that we will ever know with certainty what happened.
>We'll just go to our rewards after having waged endless wars of
>reconstruction.

And the people, yourself included, who reject these very same
documents as proof no alien spaceship crashed in Roswell, do so
because it serves _your_ particular interpretation, and you
throw out logic and common sense in the process. Yet, when it
serves your interpretations on other aspects of the UFO
controversy, you willingly embrace the contents of official
government records. Must be the bunkum artists' double
standard.

It's a little disingenuous of you and Rudiak to demand official
records that would clearly link Mogul/NYU balloons to the
Roswell incident, when you don't believe any government records
that dispute the alien spaceship explanation for Roswell. Who
are you trying to kid?

And for that matter, if the Roswell incident represents the
biggest of all government secrets, wouldn't it have served the
government's interests to manufacture fake documents to support
the Mogul/NYU explanation for the Roswell incident? Rudiak has
already accused Air Force personnel (and Captain McAndrew in
particular) of doctoring the Roswell photographs before sending
them to the CIA for analysis. Surely if this secret represents
the "Cosmic Watergate" on which that great human being, Stanton
Friedman, has based his new career, the government would have
spared no expense in making the Mogul/NYU explanation stick.
Certainly they have enough resources to make undetectable fakes.

Let's look at one authentic document, a 1st Indorsement, dated 8
November 1948, from Col. H.M. McCoy, Chief, Intelligence
Division, Air Materiel Command, to Basic Letter, dated 3
November 1948, from Headquarters, USAF, addressed to the
Commanding General, AMC, originally classified "only" Secret.
Paragraph 8 states:


"The possibility that the reported objects are vehicles from
another planet has not been ignored. However, tangible evidence
to support conclusions about such a possibility are completely
lacking."


This is an unambiguous statement not open to interpretation by
rational human beings. Despite the fact it does not mention
Roswell by name, it includes Roswell nonetheless. There is no
reason this document would refer specifically to Roswell, since
Roswell was a nothing incident back in 1947. It caused a big
stir, but it was the result of an honest mistake on the parts of
Marcel, Blanchard, and the rest of the officers on Blanchard's
staff who had never seen one of the silvery, metallic-looking
radar targets before. The incident's importance is suggested by
the official history of the 509th Bomb Group, which says, "The
Office of Public Information was kept quite busy during the
month [of July] answering inquiries on the 'flying disc', which
was reported to be in possession of the 509th Bomb Group. The
object turned out to be a radar tracking balloon."

This document refers _directly_ to the Roswell incident, and
explains the incident for what it was, a nothing event caused by
the misidentification of silvery, metallic-looking debris found
by a rancher on a remote New Mexico ranch, a rancher who had
found the debris on June 14th but didn't take any action to
bring it to the attention of authorities, until he went into
Corona on Saturday, July 5th, when he first heard stories about
all the silvery, metallic-looking "flying discs" being reported
all over the country, and when he almost certainly heard of the
$3,000 reward being offered for the first person who found one
of the discs, a reward which caused the rancher to contact the
sheriff in Roswell, because one usually contacted the sheriff to
claim a reward.

The 509th Bomb Group's official history gave the incident all
the attention it deserved.

Another document, the FBI teletype, also refers _directly_ to
the Roswell incident, and also shows that the debris did _not_
come from an alien spaceship -- unless the aliens are visiting
Earth in spaceships made out of balsa wood, aluminum foil,
rubber, and tape. Oh, I forgot. The Air Force at 8th Air Force
Headquarters lied to the FBI. Jeez, how could I forget that?

Of course, thirty-one years later, Jesse Marcel, who was
humiliated before the entire world as the jackass responsible
for the misidentification, would claim that the "weather
balloon" explanation was a cover-up of the supposed fact that
the Air Force really recovered an alien spaceship. Yet, oddly
enough, the debris he described matches the debris shown in the
Roswell photographs, and matches precisely the materials used in
the manufacture of the radar targets, right down to the
quick-fix tape with the meaningless, pink-purplish symbols in
precisely the location Marcel and other Roswell witnesses
described.

Yes, indeed. Marcel described debris that matches the debris
shown in the Roswell photographs, and debris one would expect to
find from a radar target, _except_ that he claimed the balsa
wood wasn't balsa wood, the aluminum foil wasn't aluminum foil,
and both were nearly indestructible.

Why bother with documents at all? The _only_ things that matter
to the Roswell true believers are the claims being made by the
Roswell witnesses. These claims are accepted as true, without
proof of any kind. The only documents the true believers will
believe are documents that confirm what the witnesses claim. Any
document that disputes the claims of the witnesses gets
explained away with preposterous rationalizations. The
witnesses' claims confirm the preposterous rationalizations, and
the preposterous rationalizations confirm the witness claims.
Who can argue against such a solid case -- with or without
documents?

None of the witnesses is lying, none is confused, none has a
faulty memory, none has been contaminated by the claims of other
witnesses, and none has been contaminated by inept questioning
from true believer "investigators," at least one of which
(CUFOS' own Kevin Randle) all but told one witness what he saw.
Yes, indeed, that's a compelling case you've got there.

Of course, the 8 November 1948 document was classified "only"
Secret, and UFO luminaries, such as Kevin Randle, Stanton
Friedman, and Michael Swords, can always claim that McCoy -- who
headed the Air Force's unit responsible for assessing foreign
technology, and you can't get any more foreign than alien
spacecraft -- either didn't know the truth about the recovery of
an alien spaceship in Roswell, or lied to his superiors about
the existence of evidence that would prove the UFOs are
extraterrestrial, because either he had no need to know, or his
superiors had no need to know -- depending on which version of
the irrational rationalization one uses.

But that's only one of dozens of such documents -- ranging in
classification from unclassified to Top Secret -- that show
_conclusively_ that the Air Force had not recovered any alien
spaceships. Not to worry, preposterous rationalizations can be
made to explain these documents away too. If the document is
from General Twining, commanding general of the AMC, to Air
Force Headquarters, well, obviously General Twining had the need
to know, but the people in Air Force Headquarters didn't.
Twining could carry out his scientific study of the alien craft
without Air Force Headquarters ever finding out.

Or, Twining knew about the Roswell alien spacecraft, but he
couldn't mention it in documents classified only Secret, so he
lied to his superiors about the existence of alien spacecraft,
no doubt snickering into his sleeve.

>>>>>It may as well note here the curious silence on the part of the
>>>>>anti-Roswell crowd concerning Roswell adjutant Patrick
>>>>>Saunders's statement, made to many friends and family members in
>>>>>writing before his death, that Randle and Schmitt's account of
>>>>>what happened is essentially correct.. I guess you guys are just
>>>>>waiting to find your voice, and I have no doubt that soon you'll
>>>>>be telling us he's just another of the liars whose good name --
>>>>>like that of Jesse Marcel, Sr. -- awaits the inevitable
>>>>>trashing. Speaking personally, though, I'd be more inclined to
>>>>>take his word on it than yours, Martin Cannon's, or my own.

By all means, let's not make _any_ effort to determine whether
or not a witness is being truthful. Let's just accept at face
value everything witnesses say. And if we find out that a
witness lied through his teeth about details of his military
service in an obvious attempt to impress people, let's reject
those lies as irrelevant to whether or not he told the truth
about recovering an actual alien spaceship. Instead of
questioning the veracity of the witness, just attack the people
who expose the witness' lies. They must be working for the Air
Force to cover up the truth about the alien spaceship recovery;
they are the "civilian point man in the Air Force campaign to
smear" the witness. That's a handy little way of sweeping the
lies under the rug.

Yeah, well, I'm a little curious about the silence on the part
of the true believer "investigators" regarding a gentleman by
the name of Lorenzo Kent Kimball, who was a captain in the Army
Air Force in July of 1947, and was assigned to Squadron M (Base
Hospital) of the 509th Bomb Group at Roswell Army Air Field at
the time of the Roswell incident. Contrary to what Glenn Dennis
has claimed, Mr. Kimball says there was no base mortuary
officer, that he himself would have been responsible for any
functions of a base mortuary officer. He says he never met Glenn
Dennis, and has no recollection of ever calling him for
anything. He also says he spoke with the former commander of the
base hospital, Dr. Jack Comstock, before he died in 1996, and
Dr. Comstock said that "NOTHING" of the nature described in the
Roswell books occurred at the base hospital in 1947. I would
suggest that everybody visit Mr. Kimball's website at:

http://www.inconnect.com/%7Elorenzok/roswell.html

to see exactly what he has to say.

Are the true believer "investigators" unaware of Mr. Kimball?
Well, we know from Mr. Kimball that at least one of them,
Stanton Friedman, is aware of Mr. Kimball, because he contacted
Mr. Kimball in the fall of 1992. Funny, but I don't recall
seeing Friedman mention Mr. Kimball in any of his writings.
Maybe Mr. Kimball didn't tell him what he wanted to hear. Nah.
True believer "investigators" never hold back on information
that shows their claims are all wrong. It must have been another
Stanton Friedman, maybe a government agent posing as Stanton
Friedman, who contacted Mr. Kimball. Yeah, that's it! The
government thinks Roswell is _so_ important that they go around
impersonating true believer "investigators."   . <snip>

>Of course, in your judgment apparently, that applies only to
>persons whose memories are of the crash/retrieval of an ET
>spacecraft. If they're "remembering" something that can be used
>to support what the AF and you want to believe, then their
>memories are entirely reliable.

And if somebody disputes the crashed-saucer claims, you or
Rudiak or some other devout true believer accuses them of being
either a liar or wrong. So what's the difference? Is this the
bunkum artist's double standard again?

>Dennis, come on, come on. You went out of your way to excuse the
>AF's applying a dumb explanation, based on testimony that
>virtually everybody else agrees is bogus, to the bodies part of
>the story.

"Dumb explanation"? It's dumb to think the people who are lying
about seeing alien bodies recovered by the Air Force used their
real-life observations of balloon and dummy recovery operations
as the raw source material for their lies? I don't think so.
Gerald Anderson's descriptions of the recovery operation match
too closely with actual Air Force balloon/dummy recovery
operations to be mere coincidence. But Mr. Clark will never
concede _any_ point to the Air Force or the supposed
"debunkers," probably because CUFOS and the UFO field itself
have too much to lose if Roswell ever goes down in flames.

<snip>

>It would be wonderful if
>anti- Roswell types began to look more skeptically at the
>testimony of their favorite informants -- Sheridan Cavitt, for
>example; see Bruce Maccabee's telling recent post on that
>curious individual.

Cavitt isn't my favorite informant. So throw out Cavitt's
testimony. It doesn't make much of a difference. The Roswell
witnesses still described the balsa wood that wasn't balsa wood,
the aluminum foil that wasn't aluminum foil, and the symbols
right where the symbols should have been on the radar targets
used by NYU at Alamogordo. And the available official
documentation, including the official history of the 509th and
the FBI teletype, and the dozens of other documents that include
the Roswell incident if only indirectly, still show conclusively
that an alien spaceship was _not_ recovered during the Roswell
incident, just like all the newspaper accounts of the time.
Bessie Brazel Schreiber still said the debris depicted in the
Roswell photos looks like the debris she helped her father pick
up on the Foster Ranch back in 1947.

<snip>

>What evidence do you have that the AF was afraid of being sued?

Sure it was a concern. The report had to be reviewed by the Air
Force's legal people before it was released. That's a fact.

>(Wouldn't it be more logical, in any case, for the AF -- if it
>had that concern -- not to have mentioned Anderson's and
>Dennis's testimony at all?)

Gee, that's a neat trick. Just how do you go about showing that
Anderson's and Dennis's testimony is based on real-life
observations Anderson made of actual balloon/dummy recovery
operations, and Dennis's distortions of a real- life tragedy,
without using their testimony? They used the real-life
observations as the basis for the claims they make about Roswell
in July 1947. It beats inventing everything out of thin air.

<snip>

>A final word:

>I have followed the Roswell debate with varying degrees of
>attention and interest over the years. I am keenly aware of
>what sort of evidence would be required to prove the
>extraordinary claim that the U.S. Air Force (or any other
>military or official body) recovered the remains of a vehicle
>from another planet and dead occupants. The evidence we have
>seen to date gets not remotely close to proving that. It does,
>however, open up some intriguing questions, not all of which
>have been answered.

Yeah, and they're not likely to be answered. It's an imperfect
world.

>A great deal of effort, it seems to me, is
>being made, inside and outside ufology (see, for example, Greg
>Long's P-1947 posting today), to pretend that the issue has been
>settled, when of course it hasn't.

Is has been settled as far as I'm concerned, and I wouldn't be
posting this if you and that other would-be bunkum artist,
Rudiak, didn't gang up on Dennis Stacy in an attempt to win a
case that can never be won. If no alien spaceship crashed in the
Roswell incident, there is no amount of evidence that will
convince the fanatically faithful like Rudiak.

<snip>

> Something happened in July 1947.

Yeah, one or more silvery, metallic-looking radar targets landed
on or were dragged across the Foster Ranch, where they were
found by a rancher and ignored for more than two weeks, until he
heard about the reward for the silvery, metallic-looking flying
discs being reported all over the country. He presented the
story to the sheriff in a flying disc context, and the sheriff
reported the story to Marcel in a flying disc context, and
Marcel, who had never seen a radar target before, mistakenly
identified the debris as being from a flying disc. Neither
Blanchard nor any of his other officers had ever seen a radar
target before, so they went along with the flying disc
"identification." It won out by default. Plain and simple. The
claims of bodies and secrecy are tall tales passed along from
one "witness" to another, and swallowed whole by a bunch of
fanatical true believers, and/or opportunists who see the case
as a means for making money or their mark on the world. Now that
reputations are on the line, certainly you and CUFOS aren't
going to abandon Roswell. And fanatics like Rudiak and Bourdais,
who apparently pin their hopes and dreams on extraterrestrial
visitors, will continue to pump out their nonsense. Rudiak, in
particular, is a virtual B.S. machine.

>It
>was covered up (as even the AF now admits),

Oh, what was covered up? The _fact_ that what landed on the
Foster Ranch were indeed weather balloons with one or more radar
targets? They didn't cover that up back in 1947, and they didn't
uncover that fact in 1994. It's always been out there. Perhaps
you mean the fact that the balloons came from NYU which was
launching them in support of Project Mogul. But that doesn't
change the fact that they were weather balloons and radar
targets back in 1947, and are still weather balloons and radar
targets in 1998. Once a weather balloon, always a weather
balloon. NYU and Project Mogul were irrelevant to the fact they
were weather balloons and radar targets. It was the truth back
in 1947, and it's the truth today. So if the Air Force didn't
lie, where's the cover-up? Yes, they lied through their teeth
about the true purpose behind the balloons, but that doesn't
automatically change the balloons and radar targets into an
alien spaceship. Those lies are irrelevant to what the debris
was.

<snip>

>Maybe we have gone as far as we can go.

It's a dead issue no matter how many alleged witnesses surface.
If the Air Force doesn't have a crashed alien spaceship from
Roswell back in 1947, they sure as hell can't drag it out for
everybody to see (although I did suggest to Col. Weaver that the
Air Force consider building one, just for this purpose, since
_nothing_ else will satisfy the true believers -- NOTHING!)

> Maybe it's time to admit
>that we don't know the answers.

Hey, I admit I don't have all the answers. The answer to Roswell
sure can't be found in one pat answer, which is what the true
believers expect the skeptics to produce. More than that, they
expect any answer to Roswell to be as significant as the alien
spaceship answer. It has to be _as_ important, _as_ strange,
_as_ bizarre, _as_ big as an alien spaceship crash, or it just
won't wash.

>Maybe it is time to acknowledge
>that ALL proposed solutions have problems.

Duh! Again, if Roswell is as important as the cover-up
proponents contend, why in the world didn't the Air Force invest
a little money in manufacturing a decent set of fake documents
to make the Mogul answer a pat answer? A simple memo from Col.
Duffy outlining the details would have done it. It doesn't
matter that Colonel Duffy had already passed away by the time
the Air Force got involved in their investigation. Plenty of
examples exist of his signature, and we're talking about
documents that are supposed to date back to 1947 anyway.

But they didn't do that, because Roswell isn't the big secret
the proponents claim it is. It was a nothing incident back in
1947, and it's a nothing incident today. It's long past time to
bury the wretch. Not only is the corpse starting to stink, but
it's become a raging bore.

>Maybe, as we nurture
>the hope that something will erupt from somewhere to shed light
>on the darkness surrounding these long-ago events, it's time to
>go on to other matters.

Well, there's always the possibility that a document was created
that still exists. If it does, it will surface only by accident.
But then the Roswell promoters and con men will do their best to
try to get everybody to believe the document either doesn't say
what it means, or doesn't mean what it says. Fanatical believers
like Swords, and crass opportunists like Randle and Friedman all
will beat their chests and tell us that the author of the
document wasn't cleared for the _real_ explanation for Roswell,
that the document was intended to stifle questions within the
military, or even more absurdly, that the branch of the service
responsible for defending the air space above the United States
wasn't let in on the secret.

I had intended to respond to Rudiak's never-ending stream of
hogwash, but, after wading through page, after page, after
seemingly endless page, I confess I'm not up to the task. He can
pump out B.S. faster than anybody can shovel it. And in the end,
it's all for nothing anyway. Further debate on Roswell is
pointless. It has been pointless for years.

<snip>

Robert Todd






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                             New UFO Documentary

From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 20:37:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 01:07:48 -0400
Subject: New UFO Documentary


Dear list,

50 years of UFO denial, how's that for the name of what I think
will become one of the hottest UFO documentaries to come down
the road in some time.

Fifty years, is the ambitious project of Quick Fox productions.
Quick Fox is James Fox, and his father Chris Fox. Neither up to
a few years ago had much to do with the field of ufology. Matter
of fact as James shares, until he had his own sighting, he
considered it all to be lunatic fringe material.

A trip with a friend to Area 51, changed all that, when he had
an experience that has culmunated in his first feature
documentary 50 years of UFO denial.

One of the many high points of this video is a series of short
clips featuring the late Major Jesse Marcel. You will hear in
his own words the excitement Major Marcel felt as he shares his
discovery, and breaks his security oath.

Also featured, Jesse Marcel Jr., explaining what he held in his
hands that fateful morning so long ago.

The film contains data showing how UFOs are not a modern
phenomena, and that humans experiences with these objects are
depicted in the art of cave paintings as well as European art of
the middle ages.

Lt. Philip Corso is also featured in the video, along with Sgt.
Major Robert O. Dean.

This of course is a brief overview of a great video. According
to Mr. Fox, we should all be seeing this on the Learning channel
sometime in December.

James Fox will be a guest on UFO Desk, New York's only
bi-monthly radio show on the topic.

UFO Desk is heard via commercial free WBAI NY which is at 99.5
FM, on your dial.

In the next few weeks I'm hoping to have Real Audio on my site,
so if you're outside the NY area you will still be able to
connect to the great folks we bring you via UFO Desk.

best,

Paul Williams
Executive Producer
UFO Desk WBAI NY 99.5 FM

www.escape.com/~paulw/ufodesk.html







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                           Re: A Research Question

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:50:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 08:16:31 -0400
Subject: Re: A Research Question


>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: A Research Question
>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:54:26 -0400

<snip>

>Sorry, I should have been more clear. I would actually like to
>know the maximum distance that the Las Vegas glow can be seen,
>which I suppose would be on the clearest of nights.

>Thanks!

>-Scott C. Carr
>Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
>http://www.erols.com/sardonica

>Producer, "UFO Desk"
>99.5 FM WBAI, NY


On a clear, moonless night in the scrub brush desert southwest
with an ordinary level of suspended dust in the air, you can see
the glow from a major city which is not in direct sight from
over a hundred miles away.

Well, my experience in the early seventies was being in the
scrub desert some fifty miles from Barstow and even further
south of Las Vegas anticipating the darkness of a moonless
night.  Getting up in the deep of the night, I was surprised at
how I could see enough to easily move around.  Noticing glowing
spots on the horizon, I ran to the top of a small hill and
realized these were from the large cities far away.

This was a quarter of a century ago.  I am sure the glow from
Las Vegas on a clear moonless night is now only limited by the
curvature of the earth or the freak accident of low atmospheric
particulates...

Bye...  Ted..








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                 Re: Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary

From: Roy Hale <roy_hale@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:38:32 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 08:45:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary



>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:00:35 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org>
>Subject: Re: Puerto Rico & Upcoming UFO Documentary

>Recently, it was posted in UFO Updates a request for locating
>Jorge Martin by a crew wanting to produce a 'scientifically
>oriented' UFO related documentary in Puerto Rico.

A request was put out by Union Pictures of London, I was merely
asking for info

>An area of interest was the Radio Observatory in Arecibo, P.R.

I would not have known this.

>The author complainted about not been able to get a hold on
>Martin. However, they had been in contact and even a couple of
>days ago called him.

J.Martin had proved hard to get hold of, so I was asked if I
could track him down, I was informed they were unable to locate
J.Martin.

>The curious thing I see is that, as happened with the Japanese
>crew contacted by a friend of Bob Durand, this crew started as
>a serious effort and ended in the hands of the same rogue UFO
>groups connected to the FBI/Mufon situation there.

I am sorry to hear this my friend, but I think your lines have
been crossed somewhere, my request was being done as a favour to
a colleague in the film industry, and I have nothing to do with
anything concerning either of the mentioned organisations.

>My best sugestion to Jorge Martin is to avoid everything
>connected to these UFO groups, even documentary and TV
>productions, as these groups have a long history of hoaxes and
>disinformation and has been after Martin for quite a time, not
>just for getting legitimacy, but for discrediting >him and his
research.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, and if this was the
case then it would be the right thing to do, but Union Pictures
are currently filming a three part documentary 'Riddles In The
Sky' which looks at the UFO situation on a world wide basis,
hence the J.Martin call. If we don't get the research out to the
public what do we do with it?

Yours, puzzled,

Roy Hale









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                            Alfred's Odd Ode #271

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 06:23:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 08:50:34 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #271


Apology to MW #271 (For September 19, 1998)

I must have forty hours, now, of stuff on UFO's; not counting
books and pictures, or this feeling in my toes <g>, and some
would think me immature for my consuming interest, but I can
only point straight up, and indicate the endless.  Sure, and I
concede, again, that most of it is crap! Sure, I understand,
again, that much of it is cracked. Sure, I will admit, again,
there's little proof of contact, but less _is_ more, I'll say
again, and _have_ the better contract!

In forty hours I have found, perhaps, ten minutes -- most
profound. These are scenes well past your answers, offered up
like fancy dancers. That's all _you_ do -- just flash and dazzle
-- dis the Major, chump Mack Brazel. Humiliate their kith and
kin, cloud the issue, and pretend.  I am NOT a dummy, friend.
I've got eyes, a brain -- my skin. I've _seen_ them pulsing up
so high, in morning, noon, and night time skies. I speak with
folks that I can trust. These are folks, well done, with crust.
They maintain there's something flying, zipping, zooming,
warping -- *signing*. We have _seen_ these spatial structures.
We _endure_ our strange conjectures. We have _kept_ our heads at
last, tied them down and made them fast.

Something hides in star stained skies. Something cosmic
strangely flies. Something lives beyond this Earth, beyond our
garden, yard or hearth. Something lives by different rules --
attends, of course, peculiar schools. Something watches from the
edge. Something new is on the ledge. Something keeps its eyes on
us, and should we give it love and trust!

We may as well, my sneering friend; it's Humans that are nasty!
It's them with the agenda, and they'll gut you -- clean and
crafty. They'll cut you deep, and laugh out loud, then screw you
for percentage. And this to _spite_ relationship, association,
clan or lineage. Put your faith in Bug Eyed Monsters dripping
slime from every pore, before you trust a mean humanity to
unlock _its_  harsh, hard door. Don't worry (over much) your
BEM's might have intentions. They're the least of all your
worries; it's the Humans -- my contention!

It's not the vicious space folk that sold you cigarettes; not
them that planned in secret your addictions, you can bet! Not
them refined the nicotine to a teased up unbound state that
explodes into your brain like a white fanged, smoky snake! Not
them that hooked your children, not them that gave you strife,
not them that took your money -- and then stole your _blighted_
life. Not them to lie about it, and then hire on Ken Starr to
fight their heinous battles from a well *respected* bar. . .

. . . Something _lives_ far *out* there. I've ten minutes says
it's true. It happens sure as it's a fact -- it all comes down
to you. And I don't say a better deal awaits our lot with them,
but compare our present status with the reasons for our sins.
We've been raped, abused, confined, by our _culture_ -- skin and
mind! Better contracts could be had! Bug Eyed Monsters? Not so
bad!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com


Perhaps, not so bad! Abused, is, after all, abused. We endure
plenty of that from our own brothers and sisters. How much worse
could a bug eyed monster _be_, beyond a human fiction that
they'd lay their eggs in us, but then remember the nicotine eggs
laid in lungs of lay humanity by our respected captains of
industry, AND elected leaders.

Sigorney Weaver, in the character of Warrant Officer Ellen
Ripley, said it best. "I don't know which of us is worst . .
.You don't see _them_ screwing each other over for a
percentage"!?!

Restore John Ford! Moreover, restore John Ford! <#270 was short
one of these>

--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 12 September>

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.








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                            The Sky _Is_ Falling

From: Doc Barry <authority@webtv.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:01:06 -0700 (MST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 08:49:00 -0400
Subject: The Sky _Is_ Falling


Source: BBC Webpages 9-19-98

The height of the sky has dropped by 8km in the last 38 years,
according to scientists from the British Antarctic Survey.

According to a research paper published in the Journal of
Geophysical Research, the distance it has fallen could double in
the next 100 years.

The discovery suggests that while the Earth's lower atmosphere
is warming, its upper atmosphere, or thermosphere, is cooling.

This causes the thermosphere to shrink, bringing it closer the
surface.
Scientist Dr Martin Jarvis said that there is no cause for alarm.

"The 8km drop in altitude is not, in itself, harmful to people.
"It is, however, another warning signal about what changes to
the atmosphere can be caused by human impact," he said.
Greenhouse gases blamed Greenhouse gases like carbon monoxide
are believed to be responsible for creating the effect. The
temperature changes experienced at ground level are relatively
tiny compared to the massive fluctuations - more than 100 times
greater - in the thermosphere, which is found at an altitude of
300km.

Carbon monoxide is a very efficient radiator of the heat it
absorbs from the sun, and at ground level this contributes to
warming, because the heat remains trapped close to the Earth's
surface.

However, in the thermosphere heat rapidly escapes into space, so
carbon monoxide has a cooling effect. An increase in the levels
of carbon monoxide at that altitude causes the thermosphere to
cool and it
shrinks.

Scientists have measured the fall using the ionosphere - an
atmospheric layer which behaves like "the Earth's high altitude
barometer". Fall to double

The ionosphere is a relatively poorly understood layer within
the thermosphere, but it is known that it reflects radio waves,
allowing scientists to judge its height and therefore the height
of the thermosphere.

Researchers from the BAS and the Oxfordshire-based Rutherford
Appleton Laboratory have collected more than 600,000 records of
these radio "echo-sounding signatures" from the ionosphere since
1958, allowing them to chart the thermosphere as it shrinks.

Scientists working on the project predict that if the levels of
greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide and methane continue to
increase at the expected rate, the temperature of the
thermosphere could drop by more than 50=BAC, causing a drop double
that seen in the last 38 years.

Dr Jarvis said: "Measurements taken by our European colleagues
suggested there may be a drop in altitude, but these results
from Antarctica
confirm that it is indeed a global effect."


~~~~~Get BREAKING news plus UFO/ET news - NOW - click on "What's Up
Doc?" www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518







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                          BWW Media Alert 19980919

From: Bufo Calvin <BufoCalvin@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 09:52:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 08:51:39 -0400
Subject: BWW Media Alert 19980919

Bufo Calvin
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA  94596
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Website: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufo
calvin<;/a>
<A HREF="surprise link to Amazon.com">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=048
6230945/bufosweirdworldA/<;/a>
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this
edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made
to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with
strangers before you e-mail them something.  If you forward this, please make
sure it is clear that you are forwarding it).

September 19, 1998

If you don't have cable (or get the BBC), there isn't much this week.  I
haven't had a chance to finish watching the KGB UFO special yet: when I do,
I'll try and give you my opinion.

LECTURES AND OTHER LIVE EVENTS
If you'd like information on a conference (NEW SCIENCE AND ANCIENT WISDOM) in
Berkeley, California, on November 7 & 8, let me know or e-mail
cgc@ocf.berkeley.edu.  This is their listing of speakers:

David John Oates- Reverse Speech,
        Michael Lindemann-UFOs,
        Tricia McCannon- Sacred Sites,
        J.J. Hurtak- Zero-Point Energy,
        Shelley Thomson- Remore Viewing,
        Mali Burgess- Sacred Geometry,
        Denni Clarke- Crop Circles,
        Nassim Haramein- Hyperdimensional Physics

Price is $65 and they recommend registering soon due to limited space.


TELEVISION

A&E
Sunday, September 20, 3:00 PM, THE UNEXPLAINED: REINCARNATION

BBC1
Wednesday, September 23, 7:00 PM, THE X-CREATURES: BIG CATS IN A LITTLE
COUNTRY

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL
Sunday, September 20, 9:00 PM, OZ ENCOUNTERS: UFOS IN AUSTRALIA
Sunday, September 20, 1:00 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE POWERS:
GHOSTS, APPARITIONS, & HAUNTED HOUSES
Sunday, September 20, 1:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE:
MYSTERIOUS INDIA
Sunday, September 20, 2:00 PM, ANIMAL X: FEARLESS CREATURES (while this seems
to be focussing on the not-necessarily weird ((anomalistic, Fortean, etc.))
topic of animals dangerous to humans, the last episode definitely fit the
focus of the list without the title or description indicating it would)
Sunday, September 20, 2:30 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: CHINESE WILDMAN
Sunday, September 20, 4:00 PM, UFOS DOWN TO EARTH: REASON TO BELIEVE
Monday, September 21, 1:00 AM, OZ ENCOUNTERS: UFOS IN AUSTRALIA
Thursday, September 24, 9:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GIANT SNAKE
Friday, September 24, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GIANT SNAKE

THE SCIENCE CHANNEL
Continues to show weird programming 6:00 AM, 6:30 AM, 2:00 PM, 2:30 PM, 10:00
PM, and 10:30 PM.  Mix of the shows that run or have run on the sister station
THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL (ARTHUR C. CLARKE, INTO THE UNKNOWN, etc.).  Schedule
due to change on September 27.

THE SCI-FI CHANNEL
Sun, September 20 7:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #3005: Tunguska (1908 mass
destruction event in Siberia); NDE (near-death experiences); SHC(spontaneous
human combustion); hauntings
Sun, September 20 11:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #3005
Mon, September 21 9:00 AM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #3006: psychic detective;
earthquake prediction; UFO "hoax"; dreams; the effect of prayer
Mon, September 21 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #106: telepathy; pk
(psychokinesis, "mind over matter")
Mon, September 21 8:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #106
Tue, September 22 9:00 AM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #3007: British haunted castle
(Berry Pomeroy); UFOs and popular culture; ghost-busting; Santeria; lunatics
(affected by the moon, which is the loose definition ((from "lunar")); dowsing
Tue, September 22 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #107: LAD (life after death) and
NDE (near-death experiences)
Tue, September 22 8:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #107
Wed, September 23 9:00 AM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #3008: Iranian UFO; psychic
detective; heartland ghost
Wed, September 23 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #108: psychic healing
Wed, September 23 8:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #108
Thu, September 24 9:00 AM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #3009: heartland ghost: Siberian
UFO; therapeutic dolphins; Nessie
Thu, September 24 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #110: contact with UFOs
Thu, September 24 8:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #110
Fri, September 25 9:00 AM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #3010: Ohio UFO; haunting on movie
set; Armageddon, dreams; Henry Rucker, healer
Fri, September 25 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #111: cryptozoology focus (Nessie
and Bigfoot)
Fri, September 25 8:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #111
Sun, September 27 7:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #3011
Sun, September 27 11:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #3011
___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly
redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by
e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com.  You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to
Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if
there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t
he week before.
_____________________________

**OPUS is the Organization for Paranormal Understanding and Support. I am an
Executive Boardmember, and Director of the OPUS Educational Institute. OPUS
encourages its officers and Network Associates to express their own opinions:
however, it is important to note that I do not speak for OPUS in this piece
or others presented under my own name.  For more information on OPUS, see its we
bsite at http://members.aol.com/josephxx3






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   Sep > Sep 20

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 20:08:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:51:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 00:00:08 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:53:16 -0400
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


>>Anyway, the point is that the term "disc" was applied to ANY
>>"stuff" or junk picked up in a "flying saucer" context, whether
>>it had a disc shape or not. Hence we cannot attach extreme
>>overriding significance to the use of the term "disc" as if it
>>actually described a roun, flat something or other. Just
>>consider the FBI document as an example: "disc and balloon" were
>>(Pro Mogul) faction, this was just a pile of rubber, sticks and
>>paper backed foil.

>OK, the pile of rubber, sticks and paper-backed foil explains
>the disc part of the FBI document, now what about the balloon
>part?

>More seriously, the Roswell headlines came barely two weeks
>after Arnold's initial sighting. Are you sure that in this short
>time disc had already become shorthand or synonymous for bits
>and pieces of stuff found in a "flying saucer" context? Jeez,
>how many crash cases were there between June 24 and July 8?>

>The press release also says that the disc/stuff "was picked up
>at the rancher's home," and we know that not to be completely
>accurate, either.

>Dennis

From government documents and newspapers have read
the terms "disc", "flying disc", were used interchangeably
with "saucer": of "flying saucer" regardless of the description
of the object. IF it was so far away it appeared as a dot...
t was called a flying disc or disc. IF it was T shaped.
Even if the description did not include a circular shape
it was generically referred to as a disc.

The number of crashes is irrelevant. It was the number of
sighting that made it into the press that were important.
"Flying discs" were reported all over the USA, round or
not.

The only case I can remember where the shape overwhelmed
the "disc" was a report by a guy who claimed to have seen
objects that looked like mayonaise jars while h was flying
his plane in October (?) 1946. (Forest Wenyon) He reported
hi sighting in June or July 1947 (forget the data) and it was
reported as "flying mayonaise jar".






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 20:08:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:47:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:21:51 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 98 12:08:58 PDT

>>>Before you congratulate yourself and Rudiak too much, you
>>>wouldn't be the same Bruce who 'authenticated' Ed Walters's
>>>dubious polaroids to the tune of $20,000, would you?>

>>Dennis, perhaps you could explain this so that it doesn't look
>>like an ad-hominem slur.  I don't associate such with you, and I
>>>>t Bruce is a good and honorable guy.

>Jerry,

>Thanks for reattracting my attention to this. No, no personal
>slur was intended, and I apologize to Bruce personally if I left
>that impression. I like him as a person; I even like his piano
>playing. I can see a copy of his cassette, "The Joy of Ivories,"
>from where I sit.

>My intent was something along the lines of: Well, I suppose if
>one can accept Ed's silly polaroids at face value, one can accept
>absolutely everything Rudiak says about Roswell in a word, too,
>without so much as a backward glance. My choice of phrasing was
>indeed poor.

<snip>

>Keep tickling the ivories, Bruce.


Thanks, I will. And for anyone who wonders what he is talking
about, I'll be happy to smail a copy of 'The Joy Of Ivories'
with 10 original compositions including a major piano piece
composed in honor of 50 years of UFO sightings ('New Age Rising'
which is not 'New Age' music.....one person compared it with
Beethoven....) anywhere for $6.00.  Just send an email message
with address.

As for Ed and his "silly" Polaroids..... I'll stick with them
(and Ed's other photos and videos, etc. and the other GB
sightings) and let the silly skeptics go their own way.






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                           Beautiful UFO Rendering

From: Kenny Young <task@FUSE.NET>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:59:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:10:12 -0400
Subject: Beautiful UFO Rendering


To see the picture, go to:

http://members.tripod.com/~task_2/artwork.htm

Web surfer Dave Davis applied his artistic talents and created
this beautiful composition, depicting the August 29, 1998 Ashland
County, Ohio UFO. Davis composed this piece based upon the
eyewitness drawing of the alleged object (shown in the
upper-right hand portion of the drawing).

A report on the Ashland County UFO sighting can be located at:

        http://members.tripod.com/~task_2/West_Salem98.htm

Special thanks to Dave Davis for his interest and artistic
attention.

Keep up the great work, Dave!

--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/task/






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              -[For The Record]- P-1947: The Nuclear Connection

From: slk <slk@EVANSVILLE.NET>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:32:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:22:33 -0400
Subject: -[For The Record]- P-1947: The Nuclear Connection

Hi Folks,

Thanks to Larry Hatch we now have a new web page with about 200 UFO
sightings and nuclear sites.

http://www.evansville.com/~slk/UFO-Nuke.htm

Fran



InterLink Site Directory:
http://www.evansville.net/~slk/InterLink.html






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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:39:17 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:21:19 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


In a message dated 9/19/98 10:26:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
updates@globalserve.net writes:

>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 07:01:05 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

>>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:27:55 +0200
>>From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

>>>In rewatching the simulation of the "crash" it still appears to
>>>me that the craft did not break up into two pieces when it hit
>>>the ground, but through up a lot of dirt when it struck. As it
>>>flips and rolls toward the wooded area (in the simulation) the
>>>damaged craft can be seen as a complete circle, which wouldn't be
>>>the case if nearly half of it had been broken off. It also
>>>appeared to be whole as it hit the tree and was either pushed or
>>>slid back into the ground (which it appeared to cut into like a
>>>knife cuts into butter).

>>So Steve, what you're actually saying is the object first hits a
>>tree, then it pushed back into the ground...hmmm, interesting
>>that the same object that 'cut into the ground like a knife
>>through butter' yet it 'bounced' from a tree? I'm really anxious
>>to know how that could happen.

>On the TNT web site they include an .MOV file of the crash
>simulation, but it's so small on the monitor that it's hard to
>make out all the details you see on the full sized TV screen.

>According to the simulation (as I interpret it from memory), the
>craft fell out of the sky (sort of) like a leaf falling from a
>tree, struck the ground, and bounced and flipped end over end
>toward the woods. It knocked down a few trees as it flipped
>past, and struck several trees with the flat bottem of the
>craft, which stopped its motion, and then slip back down the
>trees and embedded itself into the ground.

>The program didn't go into details about the simulation and how
>they arrived at their conclusions regarding the craft's movement
>across the field to the woods, and I found it strange that the
>craft was able to come to rest almost half buried in the ground,
>and there was no buildup of earth or dirt that would have mostly
>been displaced by it. Since this occured next to the forest and
>right next to a number of trees, I would have expected a lot
>more disturbance of the ground with so many roots below. There
>was also a small amount of snow on the ground, and one might
>also expect the ground to be frozen on the surface.

>Another point I would mention is that the soldiers are seen
>carrying large chunks of debris (which look more like they were
>cut from a block of ice rather than pieces of a manufactured
>craft). Watching them work with this material I couldn't really
>tell how much they weighed, as a single soldier struggled with a
>small piece and three or four soldiers easily carried a piece
>that was 10 times larger.

>Someone has mentioned that a sequel is expected from TNT, as
>they have a lot more material to release. It should be noted
>that TNT merely bought this from a production company that
>probably took it to a number of networks to get the best deal
>they could. Before a sequal is contemplated, I expect that a
>video release of the show will hit store shelfs in the next
>several months, and I hope they include the uncut film sequences
>at the end of the show, as Vidmark did with the "Alien Autopsy,
>Fact or Fiction".

>Steve


Please excuse me folks, but perhaps I am seeing things _and_
hearing things. I distinctly remember seeing the simulation and
_hearing_ the announcer state that the craft "Broke in two."

Now, it is possible that Mr. Alzheimer may be lurking somewhere
in what's left of my frontal (or backal) lobes, but this is what
I remember.

Either I am wrong or the rest of youse is wrong.

I will go back to the recording I made and verify the answer to
whomever it relates, even if it means that my lobes are
mistaken. However, no matter which of our lobes is incorrect,
_no_matter_which_, I would seriously and respectably reconsider
_any_ "testimony" of those witnessing UFOs, murders, auto
accidents, rape and other assorted mayhem and even hypnotic
regressive recall.

We are doomed. And as the mentor of what to me is the epitome of
descriptive imagery (Bob Dylan) once wrote, "Nothing is
revealed."

Amen

Jim Mortellaro, I think






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                 -[For The Record]- P-1947: The Term 'Grey'

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@FRONTIERNET.NET>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:21:38 PDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:36:55 -0400
Subject: -[For The Record]- P-1947: The Term 'Grey'


>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:56:42 -0400
>From: James Easton <pulsar@COMPUSERVE.COM>
>Subject: Research Queries
>To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

<snip>

>A further, general query; when did the term 'grey', attributed
>to the archetypal 'alien', actually originate and is it known
>who was responsible for it?


James,

My impression has always been that the term "gray" started in the
Dark Side literature -- in other words, the paranoid, looney-
tune rantings of Lear, Cooper, and their ilk.  I certainly had
never heard it before, though of course CE3s involving
gray-skinned entities have been around since at least the Hill
case.  I started hearing about "grays" in the late 1980s.

Jerry Clark






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                           Re: A Research Question

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 20:08:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:44:12 -0400
Subject: Re:  A Research Question


>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: A Research Question
>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:54:26 -0400


>>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:52:54 -0400
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: A Research Question
>>>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:14:59 -0400

>>>Hello List->

>>>I wonder if anyone might help me out with a bit of information
>>>for a UFO piece I am working on. Does anyone know from how many
>>>miles away you can (easily, with the naked eye) see the glow of
>>>Las Vegas on the horizon?

>>Atmospheric conditions: cloud cover (low, high) or clear?

>Sorry, I should have been more clear. I would actually like to
>know the maximum distance that the Las Vegas glow can be seen,
>which I suppose would be on the clearest of nights.>

>Thanks!

Since this is supposedly a naked eye observation during clear
sky conditions I'll hazard a guess that 50 miles would be an
upper limit.

However, this is based on "easy" to see as oppesed to a barely
visible glow. That i, sensitive, dark adapted eyes might detect
a flow farther away.

On the other hand, it might be that 50 miles is an upper bound
for easy detection and 25 miles could be a better estimate. But
I do think it would be visible 25 miles away as a glow on the
horizon.

Of course, I could be wrong!  Such a thing would, in principle,
be possible to calculate.... but much easier to "measure."





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                     New Information About Flying Discs

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 03:15:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:30:51 -0400
Subject: New Information About Flying Discs


Dear All,

Over the last few months I have been working with several people
in order to bring out the truth behind sightings of flying discs
in the 1950s and 1960s particularly. Two of these are journalist
David Windle and aviation and photographic expert Bill Rose.
'Focus' magazine, a widely read UK popular science publication,
features on pp.56-9 of it's October issue sensational
revelations about US-built flying discs  written by the men.

Bill Rose, by far the most knowledgeable researcher into these
classified aircraft, has now gone public with some of what he
knows.

Points in the article of interest to 'Updates' readers;

 - The existence of jet-powered pancakes built by Vought and
Bell in the 1950s. I spoke to Thomas C. Smith who, as a
Chance-Vought engineer, worked until 1946 on circular wing
aircraft including the jet version.

 - The testimony of former combat veteran and Air Force
journalist Jack Pickett who saw and investigated four older USAF
discs at MacDill AFB in 1967. He was allowed access to documents
and photographs both of older discs and information about more
radical contemporary designs. He was initially tasked to reveal
the truth about the nature and origins of these earlier discs in
official AF publications - said by AF experts to have been
responsible for the early saucer flap.

 - Despite initial openness with Pickett and his team, evidence
of a change of thinking at the highest levels regarding flying
discs in 1967 and the subsequent decision to maintain the
cover-up at that time. The crash of a disc operating out of Avon
Park AFB was said to be a critical factor in maintaining
secrecy.

- Evidence that the Pentagon did nothing to discourage alien
stories from 1951 when a team of aviation experts, including
Germans recruited under 'Operation Paperclip', visited A.V Roe
in Canada to start an advanced disc construction programme.
'Contactee' stories were no doubt encouraged to cover-up these
classified programmes and to divert attention away from the
reality of flying disc technologies.

- Further evidence to substantiate the German-American origins
of flying discs.

- The first known photograph of Dr. Walter Richard Miethe, the
man most responsible for postwar flying disc sightings.

In addition, I have further revelations about disc construction
at Papoose Lake and the role of the USAF and US Navy in the
flying saucer story. FOIA documents and witness testimony have
provided vital new leads.

Order you copy of 'Focus' magazine today!

A big thank you to Bill Rose and David Windle for having the
guts to tell the truth at last!

Tim Matthews.





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                      Re: CSETI Assumes 'The Position'

From: Ralf Zeigermann <kag15@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:22:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:30:54 -0400
Subject: Re: CSETI Assumes 'The Position'


>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:53:16 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: CSETI Assumes 'The Position'

>The reason why I go after guys like Dr Greer and even John Mack
>is, that guys like Dr.Greer and John Mack could have brought the
>much needed -credibility- to this phenomenon that has been so
>sorely lacking.

The funny thing about Ufology - as soon as someone is a
'Doctor', 'General' or 'Professor', he seems to be accepted by
the ... erm: "UFO-community" as 'credible'.

"He's an Ex Air Force Pilot, so he wouldn't lie...he's telling
the truth!"

Well, now Greer's a Doc and Mack's a Harvard-Professor; hey
John, you don't expect a Harvard-Professor telling crap in his
books, do you? :-)

>Six years ago when I first started investigating my own
>experiences I walked into the world of ufology looking for
>answers/help. Instead I found myself standing in the Center Ring
>of a 'Circus Macabre' that Fellini would envy. And, worst of
>all, . . .I found that the tent is on fire and the 'Clowns' are
>in charge!

See above. It's ridiculous.

Ever seen the film 'Killer Clowns From Outer Space'? Fantastic!

Cheers,

Ralf





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                           Re: New UFO Documentary

From: Jeff Rense <eotl@west.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:19:18 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:32:08 -0400
Subject: Re: New UFO Documentary


>From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: New UFO Documentary
>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 20:37:28 -0400

>Fifty years, is the ambitious project of Quick Fox productions.
>Quick Fox is James Fox, and his father Chris Fox. Neither up to
>a few years ago had much to do with the field of ufology. Matter
>of fact as James shares, until he had his own sighting, he
>considered it all to be lunatic fringe material.


Hello Paul,

I'd like to receive a review copy of the video if possible in
anticipation of giving it exposure and having Mssrs. Fox on as a
guests.  Sounds like a good one.  If possible, please request
that one be sent to:

Box 5836
Santa Barbara, CA 93150

Best regards,

Jeff Rense
sightings.com





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                           Re: New UFO Documentary

From: Ralf Zeigermann <kag15@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:52:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:31:15 -0400
Subject: Re: New UFO Documentary


>From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: New UFO Documentary
>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 20:37:28 -0400

>Dear list,

>50 years of UFO denial, how's that for the name of what I think
>will become one of the hottest UFO documentaries to come down
>the road in some time.

>Fifty years, is the ambitious project of Quick Fox productions.
>Quick Fox is James Fox, and his father Chris Fox. Neither up to
>a few years ago had much to do with the field of ufology. Matter
>of fact as James shares, until he had his own sighting, he
>considered it all to be lunatic fringe material.

Good Grief!!!

What has this list come to?

Cheers,

Ralf





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   Sep > Sep 20

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: The Term 'Grey'

From: Ralf Zeigermann <kag15@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:46:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:31:05 -0400
Subject: Re:  -[For The Record]- P-1947: The Term 'Grey'


>Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:21:38 PDT
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@FRONTIERNET.NET>
>Subject: Re: Research Queries
>To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

>My impression has always been that the term "gray" started in the
>Dark Side literature -- in other words, the paranoid, looney-
>tune rantings of Lear, Cooper, and their ilk.  I certainly had
>never heard it before, though of course CE3s involving
>gray-skinned entities have been around since at least the Hill
>case.  I started hearing about "grays" in the late 1980s.

I think it cropped up with the infamous Lear (?) Krill-Papers
back in the/beginning of the nineties.

Hey: Let's go and start a thread about the Krill-papers!!!
Isn't THAT a great idea?

Sob,

Ralf





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   Sep > Sep 20

                       Keyhoe Award Submissions Sought

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:51:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:32:17 -0400
Subject: Keyhoe Award Submissions Sought

This was recently added to the www.fufor.org web site, but felt
that it deserved mention here as well:

          ===Donald E. Keyhoe Journalism Competition===

For the 10th consecutive year, the Fund for UFO Research, Inc.,
is conducting a journalism competition named for the late
aviation and UFO writer, Maj. Donald E. Keyhoe (USMC, Ret.)

Traditionally, prize money of at least $1,000 is awarded. It may
be split into Print and Electronic Media divisions, depending on
the number and quality of entries.

The purpose of the competition is to encourage mainstream
writers and reporters to contribute to the public understanding
of the UFO phenomenon. The author's point of view is not taken
into consideration.

The competition covers stories published or aired during
calendar year 1998. The deadline for entries is February 15,
1999.

For more information and an entry form, contact the

Fund for UFO Research, Inc.,
P.O. Box 277;
Mt. Rainier,
MD 20712.

Tel/Fax (703) 684-6032.





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   Sep > Sep 20

                Internet Confusion Causes Problems for FUFOR

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:56:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:10:24 -0400
Subject: Internet Confusion Causes Problems for FUFOR


The following information is part of the updated "Science Notes"
that were recently posted to the Fund for UFO Research web page,
which can be found at

http://www.fufor.org/fufor-news-919.htm

==========

Please Help Solve This Internet Puzzle:

Fund Supporters with Internet skills are invited to help resolve a
persistent and growing problem.

High School graduates by the score, looking for college
scholarship money, somehow are being misinformed by an Internet
listing that the Isabel Davis Award is a college scholarship.
Application letters have been pouring in, and --as the false
information continues to spread--are now coming from foreign
countries. Those who have enclosed a stamped, self-addressed
envelope have received a form letter explaining the situation.
But dozens of other cannot be answered due to the postal
expense.

Somewhere under College Scholarships, students are being told
that our Award covers scholarships in such areas a journalism
and aeronautics.

Your help is solicited in tracking down the false listings and
having them removed.







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                              Argentinian UFOs

From: Carlos Roselli <croselli@arnet.com.ar>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:07:42 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:13:39 -0400
Subject: Argentinian UFOs


I am an Argentine geologist. I have been investigating sightings
directly in the field, (whenever I can) for 10 years.

I read some of Paul Devereux's books, Jaques Vallee, and the
most interesting theories.

Does anyone know about Mt. Uritorco, in Argentina? Sightings
were frequent until 1993, more or less. I had my own experience
there, closer to the earthlights description than any other
hypothesis.

I also read about a recent presentation about sightings in
Argentina on MUFON webpage, but no other comments were written.
If someone knows something about this I would be very
interested.

There is also a remarkable similarity between the earlier
reports in Yakima, Washington and the Uritorco zone here. I
spent some time in Yakima one year ago, by the way. It would be
great to share data.

Thank you.

Carlos Roselli







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   Sep > Sep 20

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 98 12:09:52 PDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:24:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:42:07 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Subj: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>Date:98-09-14 00:33:22 EDT
>>From:updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
>>To:updates@globalserve.net

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 98 15:10:33 PDT

>>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 23:15:19 -0500 (CDT)
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 98 10:01:00 PDT

>>>A number of official documents relevant to Roswell _have_ been
>>>issued, as you well know.

>>I guess I don't know this, Dennis, well or otherwise. I've seen
>>documents that you anti-Roswell advocates want us to believe are
>>relevant, because they serve your particular interpretation.
>>They do not, however, refer directly to the still-unexplained
>>and -unidentified object or objects that came down in New Mexico
>>in early July 1947. Until such real documents emerge, it is
>>unlikely that we will ever know with certainty what happened.
>>We'll just go to our rewards after having waged endless wars of
>>reconstruction.

>And the people, yourself included, who reject these very same
>documents as proof no alien spaceship crashed in Roswell, do so
>because it serves _your_ particular interpretation, and you
>throw out logic and common sense in the process. Yet, when it
>serves your interpretations on other aspects of the UFO
>controversy, you willingly embrace the contents of official
>government records. Must be the bunkum artists' double
>standard.

Yeah, whenever I see logic and common sense, I make sure I throw
'em out the door. I also make a point of being unkind to old
ladies and helpless animals.

>It's a little disingenuous of you and Rudiak to demand official
>records that would clearly link Mogul/NYU balloons to the
>Roswell incident, when you don't believe any government records
>that dispute the alien spaceship explanation for Roswell. Who
>are you trying to kid?

Don't you mean "whom"?


>Let's look at one authentic document, a 1st Indorsement, dated 8
>November 1948, from Col. H.M. McCoy, Chief, Intelligence
>Division, Air Materiel Command, to Basic Letter, dated 3
>November 1948, from Headquarters, USAF, addressed to the
>Commanding General, AMC, originally classified "only" Secret.
>Paragraph 8 states:

>"The possibility that the reported objects are vehicles from
>another planet has not been ignored. However, tangible evidence
>to support conclusions about such a possibility are completely
>lacking."

>This is an unambiguous statement not open to interpretation by
>rational human beings.

Apparently our friend considers himself a "rational human
being." Our friend, of course, defines rationality as 100%
agreement with whatever he chooses to believe. Those willing to
consider the possibility, however unimaginably slight, that a
rational human being could come to other conclusions will want
to read Michael D. Swords's "The McCoy Letter" in IUR for Spring
1997. A word of warning, however: In so doing, you will be
leaving yourself open to being called -- by our friend here -- a
jackass, a fanatic, a true believer, a bunkum artist, or an
opportunist.

>Of course, thirty-one years later, Jesse Marcel, who was
>humiliated before the entire world as the jackass responsible
>for the misidentification, would claim that the "weather
>balloon" explanation was a cover-up of the supposed fact that
>the Air Force really recovered an alien spaceship.

I think history will judge who the "jackass" is here, and
somehow I doubt that it will choose Jesse Marcel, Sr.

>Of course, the 8 November 1948 document was classified "only"
>Secret, and UFO luminaries, such as Kevin Randle, Stanton
>Friedman, and Michael Swords, can always claim that McCoy -- who
>headed the Air Force's unit responsible for assessing foreign
>technology, and you can't get any more foreign than alien
>spacecraft -- either didn't know the truth about the recovery of
>an alien spaceship in Roswell, or lied to his superiors about
>the existence of evidence that would prove the UFOs are
>extraterrestrial, because either he had no need to know, or his
>superiors had no need to know -- depending on which version of
>the irrational rationalization one uses.

>But that's only one of dozens of such documents -- ranging in
>classification from unclassified to Top Secret -- that show
>_conclusively_ that the Air Force had not recovered any alien
>spaceships. Not to worry, preposterous rationalizations can be
>made to explain these documents away too. If the document is
>from General Twining, commanding general of the AMC, to Air
>Force Headquarters, well, obviously General Twining had the need
>to know, but the people in Air Force Headquarters didn't.
>Twining could carry out his scientific study of the alien craft
>without Air Force Headquarters ever finding out.

>Or, Twining knew about the Roswell alien spacecraft, but he
>couldn't mention it in documents classified only Secret, so he
>lied to his superiors about the existence of alien spacecraft,
>no doubt snickering into his sleeve.

>>>>>>It may as well note here the curious silence on the part of the
>>>>>>anti-Roswell crowd concerning Roswell adjutant Patrick
>>>>>>Saunders's statement, made to many friends and family members in
>>>>>>writing before his death, that Randle and Schmitt's account of
>>>>>>what happened is essentially correct.. I guess you guys are just
>>>>>>waiting to find your voice, and I have no doubt that soon you'll
>>>>>>be telling us he's just another of the liars whose good name --
>>>>>>like that of Jesse Marcel, Sr. -- awaits the inevitable
>>>>>>trashing. Speaking personally, though, I'd be more inclined to
>>>>>>take his word on it than yours, Martin Cannon's, or my own.

>By all means, let's not make _any_ effort to determine whether
>or not a witness is being truthful. Let's just accept at face
>value everything witnesses say.

Does such bloviation deserve a serious response? I'd think
Waterboy here was joking if I'd ever seen the faintest evidence
that this poor guy possesses a sense of humor. Talk about
constructing a straw man.

>Yeah, well, I'm a little curious about the silence on the part
>of the true believer "investigators" regarding a gentleman by
>the name of Lorenzo Kent Kimball, who was a captain in the Army
>Air Force in July of 1947, and was assigned to Squadron M (Base

>Hospital) of the 509th Bomb Group at Roswell Army Air Field at
>the time of the Roswell incident. Contrary to what Glenn Dennis
>has claimed, Mr. Kimball says there was no base mortuary
>officer, that he himself would have been responsible for any
>functions of a base mortuary officer. He says he never met Glenn
>Dennis, and has no recollection of ever calling him for
>anything. He also says he spoke with the former commander of the
>base hospital, Dr. Jack Comstock, before he died in 1996, and
>Dr. Comstock said that "NOTHING" of the nature described in the
>Roswell books occurred at the base hospital in 1947. I would
>suggest that everybody visit Mr. Kimball's website at:

>http://www.inconnect.com/%7Elorenzok/roswell.html

I would, too. Unfortunately, Kimball undermines his case by
claiming at the end of an interesting contribution (which, as is
so often the case in the tangled Roswell web, contradicts the
testimonies of others who were there) by insisting that
_nothing_ was covered up, a pretense even the AF has abandoned.

>>Of course, in your judgment apparently, that applies only to
>>persons whose memories are of the crash/retrieval of an ET
>>spacecraft. If they're "remembering" something that can be used
>>to support what the AF and you want to believe, then their
>>memories are entirely reliable.

>And if somebody disputes the crashed-saucer claims, you or
>Rudiak or some other devout true believer accuses them of being
>either a liar or wrong. So what's the difference? Is this the
>bunkum artist's double standard again?

Now, just a minute here, Waterboy. How can Rudiak and I be
_both_ true believers and bunkum artists? We have to be one or
the other. Please get your slurs straight.


>"Dumb explanation"? It's dumb to think the people who are lying
>about seeing alien bodies recovered by the Air Force used their
>real-life observations of balloon and dummy recovery operations
>as the raw source material for their lies? I don't think so.

Let me repeat: dumb explanation. No, let's put it stronger:
staggeringly dumb explanation. So dumb that only the most
desperate Air Force apologist could believe it.


>Gerald Anderson's descriptions of the recovery operation match
>too closely with actual Air Force balloon/dummy recovery
>operations to be mere coincidence.

Again, guy, you've got your slurs confused. Is Gerald Anderson a
liar or a reliable observer who honestly mistook dummies for
aliens? You can't have it both ways, though somebody who wants
David Rudiak and me to be both bunkum artists AND true believers
probably wouldn't understand that.

> But Mr. Clark will never
>concede _any_ point to the Air Force or the supposed
>"debunkers," probably because CUFOS and the UFO field itself
>have too much to lose if Roswell ever goes down in flames.

Cliche and slur noted.

>>What evidence do you have that the AF was afraid of being sued?

>Sure it was a concern. The report had to be reviewed by the Air
>Force's legal people before it was released. That's a fact.

Let me ask you what I asked Dennis: Is there an instance in
history in which a UFO witness sued the Air Force?

>>(Wouldn't it be more logical, in any case, for the AF -- if it
>>had that concern -- not to have mentioned Anderson's and
>>Dennis's testimony at all?)

>Gee, that's a neat trick. Just how do you go about showing that
>Anderson's and Dennis's testimony is based on real-life
>observations Anderson made of actual balloon/dummy recovery
>operations, and Dennis's distortions of a real- life tragedy,
>without using their testimony? They used the real-life
>observations as the basis for the claims they make about Roswell
>in July 1947. It beats inventing everything out of thin air.

Wow. Talk about squaring the circle. And you want us to believe
you're a rational human being? An infinitely more probable
explanation is that the AF dissemblers were so desperate for
"evidence" for a feeble theory that they were willing, like the
good opportunists they were, to employ the testimony of liars.
Of course, any pro-Roswell person who did the same gets called
all kinds of rude names by our friend here.

>>I have followed the Roswell debate with varying degrees of
>>attention and interest over the years. I am keenly aware of
>>what sort of evidence would be required to prove the
>>extraordinary claim that the U.S. Air Force (or any other
>>military or official body) recovered the remains of a vehicle
>>from another planet and dead occupants. The evidence we have
>>seen to date gets not remotely close to proving that. It does,
>>however, open up some intriguing questions, not all of which
>>have been answered.

>Yeah, and they're not likely to be answered. It's an imperfect
>world.

I am frankly amazed. I thought you knew _all_ the answers.
Modesty becomes you, my friend. I hope we see more of it in the
future, though no breath is being held here.

>>A great deal of effort, it seems to me, is
>>being made, inside and outside ufology (see, for example, Greg
>>Long's P-1947 posting today), to pretend that the issue has been
>>settled, when of course it hasn't.

>Is has been settled as far as I'm concerned, and I wouldn't be
>posting this if you and that other would-be bunkum artist,
>Rudiak, didn't gang up on Dennis Stacy in an attempt to win a
>case that can never be won. If no alien spaceship crashed in the
>Roswell incident, there is no amount of evidence that will
>convince the fanatically faithful like Rudiak.

Ah, I take it back, Waterboy. You do know all the answers,
except the one I raised earlier: How can Rudiak and I be BOTH
true believers and bunkum artists?

>The
>claims of bodies and secrecy are tall tales passed along from
>one "witness" to another, and swallowed whole by a bunch of
>fanatical true believers, and/or opportunists who see the case
>as a means for making money or their mark on the world. Now that
>reputations are on the line, certainly you and CUFOS aren't
>going to abandon Roswell. And fanatics like Rudiak and Bourdais,
>who apparently pin their hopes and dreams on extraterrestrial
>visitors, will continue to pump out their nonsense. Rudiak, in
>particular, is a virtual B.S. machine.

Okay, again: Which are we? Fanatics, liars, crooks,
opportunists, or true believers? You keep getting your slurs
mixed up to the point of incoherence.

Incidentally, while we're at it: Which persons who disagree with
you about Roswell are NOT fantatics, liars, crooks,
opportunists, or true believers? Or does anyone who disagrees
with you suffer, by definition, from one or more of the
above-listed character defects?

Which brings to mind another question: How old are you, anyway?
I mean chronologically. I don't mean emotionally -- we already
know the answer to that one, I'm afraid.


>I had intended to respond to Rudiak's never-ending stream of
>hogwash, but, after wading through page, after page, after
>seemingly endless page, I confess I'm not up to the task. He can
>pump out B.S. faster than anybody can shovel it. And in the end,
>it's all for nothing anyway. Further debate on Roswell is
>pointless. It has been pointless for years.

You know, Waterboy, that's exactly the way I feel about the
never-ending stream of sludge that pours out of you. Besides
being one of the rudest people I've ever known inside or outside
ufology, you also are a bore -- as well as a boor -- of
world-class proportions.

Jerry Clark







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   Sep > Sep 21

                           Real and Apparent Size?

From: Tinus de Beer <mufon-sa@icon.co.za>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:21:25 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 07:49:35 -0400
Subject: Real and Apparent Size?

Hello list,

I would like to obtain information on formulas used to calculate
any one of the following should any two of them be available:
apparent size, real size and distance.

I'm sure there must be a direct link between these three variables?
Apparently size DOES matter :)

Any takers?

All the best.

Tinus de Beer
MUFON South Africa






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                        Voreppe - Confirmed A Balloon

From: Bourdais Gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:07:11 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 07:48:05 -0400
Subject: Voreppe - Confirmed A Balloon

To all List members :

I have more informations on the case of Voreppe which confirm,
apparently, that it was a balloon.

This is the case, revealed last week on Friday, September 11, of
the observation of a supposed UFO in a garden of the small city
of Voreppe, near Grenoble in the Alps, which was made on Sunday,
September 6, around 8 pm. This case was widely reported (see,
for instance, UFO ROUNDUP of September 14, page 1). It looked
very promising, with a video recording, and with allegedly
burned leaves of a tree taken for analysis by two specialists of
CNES/SEPRA (Centre national d'Etudes Spatiales/ Service
d'Expertise des Ph=E9nom=E8nes de Rentr=E9es Atmosph=E9riques). However,
on Saturday morning, September 12, the CNES put an abrupt end to
the story by revealing that it had just been a misperception
(not a hoax) of a child's balloon.

This information has been confirmed to me, convincigly, by
Jean-Jacques Velasco, the head of SEPRA. What happened is a
family of Voreppe informed the police that their son had dropped
a balloon which was fairly large (nearly one meter) and in the
shape of a ladybug. There was very little wind, Velasco
explained to me, and it drifted, first loosing altitude, hovered
for a moment above the garden, and drifted away. The night was
falling and the witnesses were mistaken about its size. When
they shot the video, the balloon was already at some distance
and hard to identify.

This information has been confirmed to me confidentially, from
another source according to which a string could be seen on the
video, floatting under the balloon, and a woman's voice could be
heard saying "It looks like a ladybug" (coccinelle in French) !

Still, it is curious that it took nearly a week to realize such
a mistake!








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   Sep > Sep 21

                          The UFO Phenomenon CD ROM

From: Sean Jones <Tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:18:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 07:30:48 -0400
Subject: The UFO Phenomenon CD ROM


The UFO Phenomenon CD ROM


FBI FOIA

This directory has over two thousand FOIA documents have been
released by the FBI regarding the UFO phenomenon. Pages on
MAJESTIC 12, CATTLE MUTILATION, ROSWELL and of course the bulk
of the pages are on UFOs. There are over 2000 pages. Around
145meg in total.



UFO MOVIES

This directory has a compilation of quick-time and mpeg movies
of actual video footage taken by  witness's themselves.
Including the Phoenix sighting of last year, the Mexico City
sighting from Aug 97, STS 80 and an interview with Wendle
Stevens. Nearly 200meg in total.



UFO PICTURES

This directory is full of hundreds of actual pictures of UFOs
taken by the witnesses themselves. There is also a section of
alleged pictures of the Roswell alien. Also there is a section
of Alien Artwork and other such similar. In total there ares
over 1750 pictures. Around 115meg in total.


The CD-ROM is only twelve pounds Sterling, post and packing is
free anywhere in the UK. Overseas customers can also order the
CD ROM but will need to check with me for the cost of postage
before ordering.



The CD-Rom also comes supplied with some shareware software
where needed, to view the formats.

Samples are available on the website.

http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/CDlist.html

---
 In an infinite universe inifinitely anything is posible.
 Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
 Research page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/






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   Sep > Sep 21

                           KGB-UFO Footage Request

From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:59:38 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 07:45:00 -0400
Subject: KGB-UFO Footage Request

Hello,

We've read and heared a lot about the TNT-Special on UFOs.
Unfortunately here in the Netherlands there was no way to recieve that
special.

Here's the question:

Is there anybody out there who has a PAL-copy of the special?

If so, we would be really glad to recieve a copy. Of course we'll
pay the tape or send a empty one in return...you would really
help us out.

Many thanks,

Andy Denne

Abduction & Ufo Research Association
Nijmegen, The Netherlands
aura@telekabel2.nl
http://members.tripod.com/~A_U_R_A






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   Sep > Sep 21

                   Barry Greenwood's UFO Historical Review

From: Jim Klotz <jimklotz@foxinternet.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:13:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:05:16 -0400
Subject: Barry Greenwood's UFO Historical Review


We are proud to announce that by exclusive arrangement, CUFON,
the Computer UFO Network will carry the only authorized Internet
version of Barry Greenwood's "new" newsletter, UFO HISTORICAL
REVUE.

CUFON makes this publication available in order to archive it
and make it available electronically, NOT in any way to replace
subscriptions to UHR.  Therefore, issues do not appear on CUFON
until a minimum of 30 days after mailing.

We urge all to subscribe to UHR.  Write to:
UHR,
PO Box 176,
Stoneham  MA
02180, USA.

Within the United States, subscriptions are $15.00 per year,
$20.00 (US Dollars) outside the US.

The Debut issue of UHR is now available at:

http://www.cufon.org/uhr/uhrndx.htm

... Dale Goudie     ... Jim Klotz
         ... Chris Lambright

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

For background information try:

http://www.ufomind.com/misc/1998/jan/d21-001.shtml

http://www.ufomind.com/misc/1998/mar/d16-001.shtml

http://www.ufomind.com/misc/1998/feb/d03-002.shtml

http://www.ufomind.com/misc/1998/feb/d05-001.shtml



* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Jim Klotz [CUFON SYSOP]   I put a $dollar in the change machine....
email@cufon.org                    But nothing changed!
http://www.cufon.org
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *






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   Sep > Sep 21

                  KGB UFO Files - Another Film Stock Fraud?

From: 'Roger' <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:01:31 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:17:12 -0400
Subject: KGB UFO Files - Another Film Stock Fraud?


[Non-Subscriber Post --ebk]


E.B.K.,

I'm not a subscriber to the UpDates listing however, as a
professional cinematographer, I do have some factual information
concerning the TV show about the 'KGB Files' on UFOs. While I
personally believe in the existence of alien life forms and the
probability of them visiting our world, I find the "secret
footage" to be false for several very good reasons.

The show featured an "expert" on Soviet film stocks. He
presented, for the viewing audience, a stack of 35mm film cans
and called attention to their various labels to verify the type
of film that would be available in the late 60's.

Then a strip of the film was shown on a tv monitor so that the
information on its edge could be seen, also for verification
purposes.

And here's were the rub comes in:

The film presented was clearly 16mm color NEGATIVE film;
something not available in 16mm, even in the United States,
until the late 70's and early 80's.

In addition, the show included a technician holding up a strip
of the 16mm film to the light for inspection, despite the fact
that all of the cans on display were for 35mm film.

The only 16mm film stock available in the 60's was known as
reversal, which is a POSITIVE film stock that can be viewed
directly after processing without having to have a print made.

In addition, the footage shown was clearly derived from color
negative as it was void of the dense blacks and high contrast
that is indicative of color reversal film, whether 16mm or 35mm.

Just think back on what news footage in the 60's and 70's looked
like on color film. Pretty bad, remember? The Soviet footage
looked waaaay too good, no matter how accurate the uniforms and
props might be.

So, unless the Soviets had Kodak beat by over a decade in the
development of 16mm color negative, and unless the Soviets were
in the habit of storing 16mm film in 35mm cans, then the film
presented was no doubt a fake.

On the other hand, if the Soviets' 16mm film was that good in
the 60's (regardless of their storage habits), then their
current film stocks must be spectacular.

Perhaps they should go into the film business and give Kodak and
Fuji some competition! Might do wonders for the
Soviet economy!

Thanks for the time,

Roger






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                          Chat with Vince DiPietro

From: Yvonne Hedenland <vonni_h@email.msn.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:49:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:47:14 -0400
Subject: Chat with Vince DiPietro


Vince DiPietro
The Society for Planetary SETI Research

Accountability:
Where Sound Byte Science Has Failed the Grade

NASA Goddard Space Flight Center engineer,
and image processor on the famous Face on
Mars photos, DiPietro is definitely one of the
men who most directly brought the Mars face to
public attention. Along with SPSR, he continues
to examine the incoming data from Mars Global
Surveyor for both issues of of planetary science
and potential artificiality.

Yet, as indicated by Space News in their Sept.
7th edition, the data has been slow to be released.
Malin Space Systems and NASA/JPL have been
the brunt of several independent groups of scientists
eager for more information from the red planet.

Is Science best served by a bottleneck?  And
where do instances of Sound Byte Science -
the quick explanations for the media without full
details - actually hurt the causes of science and
not help them? We'll discuss all this and more in
a live chat on Tuesday, September 22nd at 6pm,
Pacific Time.

This chat is available at http://forums.msn.com/UFO
The Briefing Room chat can be accessed by any IRC
client. The chat server name is publicchat.msn.com
and the room or channel name is #briefing.








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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:45:19 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:39:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:21:18 +0200
>From: bourdais gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

<snippety snip>

>Again, Cavitt, the only living witness of the retrieval
>operation, does not remember at all any Mogul debris.

<more snippety snip>

>Gildas Bourdais


Gildas,

Just out of sheer curiousity, how did you become aware of the
fact, carved in stone as usual, that Cavitt is the only living
witness of the retrieval operation?

Does this mean you discount Frank Kaufmann's testimony?

Dennis







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                                 TNT-Special

From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:25:18 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:47:25 -0400
Subject: TNT-Special

Hi all,

I heared there was a re-run of the KGB-UFO special that TNT would
broadcast on Tuesday 22nd of September.

Now it would be wonderful if anyone one out there, would be so
kind and tape it for us...Just let us now, so we can forward our
postal-address.

Of course we're willing to pay the tape or send an empty one in
return, whatever you prefer!

Thanks so much...

Andy Denne
A.U.R.A.
The Netherlands
aura@telekabel2.nl
http://members.tripod.com/~A_U_R_A






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                Strange Object Over Schalksrust, South Africa

From: Maurice Kellett <SETI54@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:19:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:36:51 -0400
Subject: Strange Object Over Schalksrust, South Africa


About fourteen years ago I was taking our Alsation dog for his
last exercise of the day at around 9.30pm. We were in a deserted
industrial site when a bright light (clear) came very slowly
towards us.

I dont know how big it was or how far it was away as the sky was
dark and there was little to reference its size etc. It came
slowly overhead travelling in a straight line.

As it passed overhead my Alsation dog (Duke) pushed himself onto
my legs and started to shake. I felt goosepimples all over my
body and as though my hair was lifting and standing on end.

It passed over absolutely silently and headed south. My wife
laughed at me when I said what had happened.

Next morning the highlights of my face appeared as if sun burnt
i.e. end of my nose, and tops of my cheeks. I was accused of
having been under a sun lamp as I believe it was Autumn or
Spring when this incident happened.

I suspect the light was not very large possibly only being a
foot or two in diameter. It  was a strange experience and I know
that it was most certainly not explainable by any normal
circumstances. Duke's shaking told me that whatever it was made
him afraid. It was real.

I am a radio ham and a couple of years ago I was asked if I
wanted to participate in the Seti program, hence my email
address. Finances stopped me from taking part in the program but
I dont believe that the stars in the night sky are just there to
look nice. I dont think that we are alone in the universe even
though that goes against my Christian teachings.

Questions which I ask myself when I look at the night sky is
where does it end and how? Is there a big brick wall with a
notice on it saying "End of the Universe". If there is, whats
behind the wall. If there is no wall and it goes on forever can
I conceive of a universe which goes on forever? I just can't
take that one either a forever universe is something which my
mind can not comprehend.

Perhaps the human race are likend germs on a grain of sand in a
desert. We see only other grains of sand forevermore, but beyond
the desert other lands exist which are themselves alien to the
desert. I dont think its a case of is there life out there, its
more a case of where it is and how far it is away and what form
it takes.

Its a strange world when fish can live in an environment where
pressures per square inch are measured in tons yet man has
difficulty in building craft to withstand these presures to
allow the exploration of the lower levels of the worlds oceans.

The more we know, I think the more we learn about how little we
know. Is not the human body itself a marvel, its nothing short
of a fantastic intelligence gathering machine, but for who
really is the intelligence it collects being gathered?

Maurice






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 03:36:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:05:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

['Mature' Content - Reader Discretion Advised -- ebk]

In a message dated 98-09-21 02:05:20 EDT, Jerome of Arrogance
wrote:

>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>Date: Sun, 20 Sep 98 12:09:52 PDT

>>From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
>>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:42:07 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>>Subj: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>>Date:98-09-14 00:33:22 EDT
>>>From:updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
>>>To:updates@globalserve.net

>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>>Date: Sun, 13 Sep 98 15:10:33 PDT

>>>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 23:15:19 -0500 (CDT)
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>>>>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 98 10:01:00 PDT

<snip>

>You know, Waterboy, that's exactly the way I feel about the
>never-ending stream of sludge that pours out of you. Besides
>being one of the rudest people I've ever known inside or outside
>ufology, you also are a bore -- as well as a boor -- of
>world-class proportions.

Oh, my!  I'm crushed!  CUFOS' Minister of Propaganda, their
answer to little Joey Geobbels, doesn't like me.  Boo-hoo!

I'm only unpleasant to pretentious scum like you, and the
liars they promote.  You're a pompous, self-righteous twit
who's in love with the sound of his own words -- every one
is pure gold, isn't it Jerome?  Of course it is.

Your buddy,

Waterboy








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               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:45:20 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:42:54 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell
>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:28:07 -0300

>I have just come back on the list, obviously having missed a
>splendid paper by Dave Rudiak on Roswell..


Not really, Stan. You see, I haven't quite been able to pin Dave
down as to what he thinks about the number of crash sites and
the recovered alien bodies you propose below. Maybe he'll weigh
in, either confirming or denying your scenario. That _would_ be
splendid, not to mention highly interesting, if only to see
whether you two are on the same flight path, or headed for some
sort of aerial misadventure.

>I just wanted to point out that the odds of a mid air collision
>between 2 saucers were pretty good since according to Ted
>Bloecher's report 40% of the 850+ sightings he recorded for the
>wave of l947 involved more than one object seen at a time.

What the hell does "pretty good" mean? Most military operations
are conducted in tandem or formation. Does that make the odds of
a mid-air collision "pretty good"? No, it simply slightly
increases the already low odds of one aircraft malfunctioning
and colliding with another one. "Pretty good" is perfectly
meaningless. If the odds of a mid-air collision were really
"pretty good," then our own military probably wouldn't fly in
formation at all.

>Think of a pilot and a wingman. If they ran into a totally
>unexpected lightning bolt or a radar beam which we know was on
>because of an anticipated V-2 launch with data being required
>72,48,24,4 hours before launch, then the guidance or propulsion
>system of one or both might have been temprarily disrupted.

Hedging your bets, aren't you? If radar and lightning bolts were
so deadly to tandem-flying UFOs -- and remember the latter were
constructed of purportedly indestructible material -- why
weren't they falling out of the skies left and right during the
1947 wave? In other words, out of Ted Bloecher's 850 reports,
how many were of two or more UFOs crashing simultaneously to
earth? It wouldn't be one, would it? Does 850 divided by one
represent "pretty good" odds? Maybe Dave's splendid Roswell
paper backs you up on this logical fallacy, too? Or maybe Dave
begs to disagree? Who knows?

>I am personally convinced that were indeed 2 sets of bodies, one
>in the Plains, and one set a few miles from the Brazel debris
>field.


Which is partly the problem, but let me see if I've got this
straight: One UFO crashed on the Foster ranch in two parts, one
part of which had no bodies, the other part of which had all the
bodies. And a second UFO in one part crashed with bodies on the
Plains. Am I correct in assuming this means you don't accept
Kaufmann et al's account of yet another crash site, with bodies,
nearer to Roswell? I keep telling everyone I'm confused about
Roswell, but Splendid Dave just makes fun of me. I keep waiting
for him to straighten us out all on the competing claims about
Roswell, but he just accuses me of debunker double standards and
changing the subject, and then ignores my entreaty. Once again,
since you think Dave's paper is so splendid, I'd like to know
how splendid he thinks yours is. He could begin by telling us
his objective assessment of how many UFOs crashed, when and
where, and which ones involved body recoveries.

>The first would never have been brought to Roswell, the latter
>as described by the Photographer I met with and presumably the
>smelly ones brought to Roswell as noted by Glenn Dennis.

Glenn Dennis? I don't think even Splendid Dave is still taking
Glenn Dennis seriously, let alone his missing-in-action nurse --
the one who supposedly participated in the autopsies -- but,
again, if I'm wrong, Dave can set me straight by publicly
endorsing Dennis and his fabulous story. The endorsement doesn't
have to be splendid. A ringing endorsement will suffice.

>One description of the gash in the side of the Plains saucer was
>like two parentheses face to face.

>Sounds like 2 saucers colliding.

That, or a broken tambourine.

<snip>

>Pilot and wingman fly close to each other.

>STF

Authors and uncovered evidence are supposed to fly close
together, too. Apparently, you interviewed Lorenzo Kimball as
early as 1992, yet I don't recall seeing his name ever mentioned
in any of your writings about Roswell. I trust you weren't
trying to avoid a mid-air collision?

In fact, I don't recall Kimball being interviewed and/or quoted
by Randle and Schmitt, either, although I'm sure that
considerable effort was expended by everyone in an attempt to
confirm or disconfirm Glenn Dennis's highly dubious account
(which even Randle now disavows). Wasn't it?

Never mind that it took an outside journalist less than a week
or two to cast serious aspersions on the reality of Dennis's
nurse -- effectively burying her an non-existent -- Roswell
researchers everywhere will be forever appreciative of the way
you three managed to uncover, and then perpetuate, Dennis's
self-serving account for years. Bravo! Splendid!

In all frankness, I can only wonder: How many other witnesses
did you, Randle and Schmitt interview whose negative testimony
failed to make it into print? Perhaps Doubtless Dave knows,
because I don't, and neither do the rest of us.

Hopefully, someone can set us all straight with yet another
splendid paper on Roswell, one which spells out what really
happened in a concise, straightforward scenario that we can all
understand.

Dennis








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                               Re: TNT-Special

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:38:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:59:54 -0400
Subject: Re: TNT-Special


>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:25:18 +0200
>From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: TNT-Special

>Hi all,

>I heared there was a re-run of the KGB-UFO special that TNT would
>broadcast on Tuesday 22nd of September.

>Now it would be wonderful if anyone one out there, would be so
>kind and tape it for us...Just let us now, so we can forward our
>postal-address.

>Of course we're willing to pay the tape or send an empty one in
>return, whatever you prefer!

Andy-

        Can you view an NTSC video tape?

Steve







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                Re: KGB UFO Files - Another Film Stock Fraud?

From: neil morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:51:19 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:05:33 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB UFO Files - Another Film Stock Fraud?


>From: 'Roger' <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:01:31 +0000
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: KGB UFO Files

>[Non-Subscriber Post --ebk]

> E.B.K.,

<snip>

Dear All,

I'm not doubting Rodger's knowledge in these matters but I would
like to point out that I and my late father were using Russian
colour film stock for 'home-processing' in the mid 60's.

I gather it had been available well before this in the SU. We
were using 16mm stock double punched for std 8 double run cine on
25 foot rolls which we hand sliced down to the 8mm guage after
processing in a 16mm tank.

Their process was very obscure, required in excess of 25+ process
stages and was a "reversal" process ie you first developed a
partial "negative" image which was then "lost" the remaining
"positive" was then developed on to give the final "positive"
colour image.

This system did produce a "negative" image as the first stage of
the film process but was sacrificed in the reversal process, I
don't see why the system could not have been tailored to produce
a negative if needed.

There may have been some dark chemestry that disallowed this but
the neg image was there to be seen when the film was re-exposed
to white light ready for the reversal development.

As I recall the film system was marketed here in the UK as
"Technopan", it did take forever to process the stuff but the
results were remarkably good on the whole, they also sold a 35mm
version for slides.

Neil.






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                         Re: Real and Apparent Size?

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:28:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:01:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Real and Apparent Size?


>From: Tinus de Beer <mufon-sa@icon.co.za>
>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Real and Apparent Size
>Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:21:25 +0200

>I would like to obtain information on formulas used to calculate
>any one of the following should any two of them be available:
>apparent size, real size and distance.

Tinus -

The formulate are as follows:

    Sight Distance = Ground Distance /cos(Elevation*(@PI/180))
    Altitude = tan(Elevation*(@PI/180))*Ground Distance
    :Actual Size In Feet =(tan(Angular Size*(@PI/180))*Sight
Distance)*5280
    :Altitude In Feet = Altitude *5280
    Seconds To Go 180 Degrees = 180 * Angular Speed Per Second
    Mins To Go 180 Degrees = Seconds To Go 180 Degrees /60
    Estimated Speed = (tan(Angular Speed Per Second *(@PI/180))*
Sight Distance)*3600

To see the application of these to two UFO cases, visit

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/9047/970819.htm

and

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/9047/980419.htm

-----
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and more -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------







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                Re: KGB UFO Files - Another Film Stock Fraud?

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:34:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:58:38 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB UFO Files - Another Film Stock Fraud?


>From: 'Roger' <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:01:31 +0000
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: KGB UFO Files

>[Non-Subscriber Post --ebk]


>E.B.K.,

>The show featured an "expert" on Soviet film stocks. He
>presented, for the viewing audience, a stack of 35mm film cans
>and called attention to their various labels to verify the type
>of film that would be available in the late 60's.

>Then a strip of the film was shown on a tv monitor so that the
>information on its edge could be seen, also for verification
>purposes.

>And here's were the rub comes in:

>The film presented was clearly 16mm color NEGATIVE film;
>something not available in 16mm, even in the United States,
>until the late 70's and early 80's.

I'd like to see some other film experts weigh in on this one.
One of the arguments leveled against the Santilli "film" was that
the original film would have been negative film, rather than
positive.  Of course, we're discussing alleged black and white
film, rather than color, and that may be a factor.

Steve







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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 98 10:51:06 PDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:39:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 03:36:12 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject:Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>['Mature' Content - Reader Discretion Advised -- ebk]

>In a message dated 98-09-21 02:05:20 EDT, Jerome of Arrogance
>wrote:

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>Date: Sun, 20 Sep 98 12:09:52 PDT

<snip>

Hey, Li'l Waterboy (apologies to Jimmie Rodgers and Bill
Monroe),


>>You know, Waterboy, that's exactly the way I feel about the
>>never-ending stream of sludge that pours out of you. Besides
>>being one of the rudest people I've ever known inside or outside
>>ufology, you also are a bore -- as well as a boor -- of
>>world-class proportions.

>Oh, my!  I'm crushed!  CUFOS' Minister of Propaganda, their
>answer to little Joey Geobbels, doesn't like me.  Boo-hoo!

Now I'm being compared to Joseph Goebbels (note spelling, guy,
lest your intended insults get even more incoherent than usual).
But I'm confused, my friend: am I a Nazi equivalent, or am I the
following?:

>pretentious scum like you, and the
>liars they promote.  You're a pompous, self-righteous twit
>who's in love with the sound of his own words

Gee, I just don't know _what_ to think  Here I'd been under the
impression, from your last posting, that I am a bunkum artist, a
charlatan, a fanatic, and/or a devout true believer. Make up
what passes for your mind, H20 guy! You've got to work on
getting those slurs straight.

With sincere apologies to all grown-ups on this list.

Jerry Clark





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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Bruce Lanier Wright <magnus@io.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:35:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:19:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 03:36:12 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject:Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>I'm only unpleasant to pretentious scum like you, and the
>liars they promote.  You're a pompous, self-righteous twit
>who's in love with the sound of his own words -- every one
>is pure gold, isn't it Jerome?  Of course it is.

My, _that's_ a compelling argument.

Bruce W.







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                      UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 38

From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:05:02 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:55:52 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 38



Volume 3, Number 38
September 21, 1998
Editor: Joseph Trainor

BIGFOOT PHOTOGRAPHED
SOUTH OF NAPLES, FLORIDA

     On Tuesday, September 8, 1998, on their 6 p.m.
news broadcast, WINK-TV in south Florida showed a
photograph of a hairy hominid believed to be a Bigfoot
or Skunk Ape, the name by which the creature is
known in Florida.
     According to WINK-TV, several color photographs
of the Bigfoot were taken by David Shealey of Naples,
Florida (population 19,505).  Shealey operates the
Bigfoot Research Center in Naples.
     According to the report, Shealey was perched with
his camera in a hunter's stand, high in a cypress tree
in the Everglades.  Suddenly, he spotted a Bigfoot with
matted brown fur "crossing an open prairie, apparently
unconcerned that it was being photographed."
     Shealey reportedly told WINK-TV that there were
"up to seven" Skunk Apes wandering the Big Cypress
and Fakalatchee Preserves.
     The Fakalatchee Preserve is just north of Florida
Highway 41, also known as the Tamiami Trail, about
17 miles (28 kilometers) southeast of Naples.  The city
of Naples is located 117 miles (187 kilometers) west
of Miami.  (Many thanks to Linda S. Jacobson for this
news story.)

UFOs HAUNT VILLAGES IN
EASTERN FRANCE

     On Tuesday, September 8, 1998, at 12:20 a.m.,
French ufologist Picot Sylvain and his friend Cyril were
staked out on a skywatch in Villeret, a village near
Chavanges, in the department of Aube, in eastern
France.
     "At 12:20 we heard a surprising noise that we
thought was a helicopter losing engine power," Picot
reported.  "Immediately we localized the source.
It was coming from the northeast, from Courcelles-sur-
Voire."
     Scanning the sky, the pair "marked the presence of
an orange/yellow light that remained stationary at 500
to 600 meters above the ground over Labraux, a village
situated three to four kilometers to the east-northeast."
     "It (the UFO) was hovering in the clouds, which were
numerous, and it became visible only when the clouds
parted.  The wind was coming from the west-southwest.
But the object was moving slowly against the wind
towards either the south or the south-southwest.  The
noise resembled the hum of a THT line  (That's THT
as in Tres Haute Tension--French for Very High Tension--
power line--J.T.) or again something like a refrigerator.
The total time of our observation was one hour.  Then it
disappeared."
     Three nights later, on Thursday, September 10, 1998,
Picot returned to the area, which is located near
Brienne-le-Chateau, about 150 kilometers (90 miles)
east of Paris.  At 11:30 p.m., he spotted "a bright red light
in the west-southwest sky near Jasseines" and stopped
his car.
     "In Jasseines, near the church, I was looking towards
the field," he reported.  "Seeing the two red lights that
were hovering there, I turned off my car's headlights.  The
two red lights were pulsating--two brief flashes per second."
     Picot estimated that the lights were one kilometer
(0.6 miles) away "over a plowed field.  The distance that
separated them was perhaps a little more than two fingers
at arm's lengths, or about 62 meters at a distance of
one kilometer.  I stopped and watched for several minutes,
then turned on my headlights again."
     "Suddenly, I saw both lights rise very quickly--together--
simultaneously--to an altitude of 10 degrees above the
horizon.  I was persuaded that the lights were part of a vast
black object, which could not be clearly seen because of
the darkness of the night.  Evidently the UFO was between
the villages of Labraux and Jasseines, just off Chaussee
(Road) D.396," the highway between Brienne-le-Chateau and
Vitry-le-Francois.
     Unknown to Picot, an hour earlier, a witness in the town
of Pantin also saw a UFO.  At 10:25 p.m., he "was walking
his dog on the Rue Arago" and "his attention was attracted
by the sudden startling illumination of the street.  He then
observed the passage of a luminous white object of
rectangular form...over the village at an angle of 45 degrees
to the horizon."  The UFO also had an observable tail.
    "The witness followed the object with his gaze for four
or five seconds.  Then it dislodged or fragmented into five
or six precise geometric forms, going to the northeast but
giving the impression of climbing through the night sky and
disappearing one second later."
     Thirty seconds afterward, the witness "spied a second
UFO, describing it as a round luminous form with a shadow
in the center."  (Merci beaucoup au Franck Marie de
Banque OVNI pour ces nouvelles.)

NEW ALIEN SIGHTING NEAR
PERUGIA IN ITALY

     On Friday, August 21, 1998, residents of Citta di
Castello, a suburb of Perugia, a city in Italy's Umbria
province, about 145 kilometers (87 miles) north of Rome,
claimed to have seen a "flying humanoid alien."
     The encounter took place in a field on the outskirts
of Citta di Castello.  Witnesses spotted a "small alien"
in the field, "crouched like an old woman gathering herbs."
When the figure failed to respond to shouts from the
onlookers, the people began a cautious approach.
    "When they got within 200 meters, a thing like a
silver cylinder appeared."  The UFO hovered "about two
meters above the ground."  The humanoid reportedly
levitated into the hovering object, and "with that, it
accelerated quickly in a vertical direction, disappearing
in a couple of seconds."  (See the Italian newspaper
Corriere dell'Umbria for August 28, 1998.  Grazie a
Edoardo Russo e Simone Cumbo di Centro Italiano di
Studi Ufologici, CISU, per questo rapporto.)

GLOWING UFOs SIGHTED NEAR
BOURNEMOUTH, DORSET, UK

     On Sunday, September 13, 1998, at 7:50 p.m.,
Michael S. "was in my garden, collecting tools that I had
left out earlier.  It was a good clear night with a vast array
of lower magnitude stars visible.  I paused in my collecting
duties to see if I remembered any of the astronomy I had
learned as a boy, and also to spot any satellites."
     "My attention was drawn to the southwest, where a
meteor appeared above the trees in my garden (50 degrees
above ground level).  As I followed the red/orange shooting
star, I saw that two others were following it in a delta V
formation.  I still believed them to be meteorites, but then
the two following objects zigzagged behind the leader."
     "The leader maintained a straight course toward the
northwest, heading towards Bournemouth/Hurn Airport
(CAA Air Traffic Control Center).  As they left my field of
view, the two followers rejoined their leader.  The altitude
that these objects were at was very high, possibly 100,000
feet (30,000 meters), though without any idea of size, it
would be hard to estimate.  The speed that they were flying
was about the same as fast jets at a much lower altitude,
perhaps 10,000 feet.  I am sure that I have seen three UFOs."
     Bournemouth is on Britain's south coast, about 110 miles
(176 kilometers) southwest of London.  (Email Interview)

UFO SQUADRON SEEN OVER
REDCLIFFE, QUEENSLAND

     UFO sightings in Australia's Queensland state continued
last week, with a new incident reported in Redcliffe, a city
32 kilometers (20 miles) north of Brisbane.
     Four witnesses in Redcliffe "said the event occurred at
11:20 p.m." on Wednesday, September 16, 1998.  They
"looked up into the sky and saw a bright light.  Colour was
red, blue (and) green and was followed by approximately
seven other smaller lights that looked like stars."
     A witness "Mr D. went back inside at 11:25 p.m. and
rang a friend and asked her to go outside to see if she
could see them from her place."
     "Mrs. Clark went outside at 11:30 p.m. and saw the
seven objects.  She then saw the lights start to do a
number of formations (maneuvers--J.T.)."
     (1) a straight line, then a V formation.
     (2) a circle with a tail
     (3) a wide V
     (4) a V with a line through the middle.
     The UFOs "remained in view for 15 to 20 minutes
and then disappeared."  (Many thanks to Diane Harrison
of UFO Network Australasia for this news story.)

TWO BLACK HELICOPTERS
FLY OVER A SYDNEY SUBURB

     In late August 1998, Steven L. was "delivering a
digital piano for the music store that I work for" when
he had an unusual experience in St. Ives, a suburb
of Sydney, Australia's largest city.
     "I had missed a turn off and had to turn around in a
side street," Steve reported.  "As I made the turn, I
glanced through the windshield of my car to see two
helicopters flying in Wing Man formation."
     "As I am an avid flyer myself, with 10 hours in a
glider, I am particularly interested in all aircraft and
am familiar with the port and starboard lights required
by international law."
     "The thing which struck me as strange was the
fact that these two choppers were not displaying any
lights.  A red tail rotor light and underside strobe were
not visible.  They were black in colour and flew from
the east to the west, towards Parramatta (in New
South Wales, just west of Sydney--J.T.).  The helicopters
were flying at a low altitude, as best I could judge in the
clear night sky, at or below 500 feet."  (Email Interview)

STRANGE GLOW PUZZLES
SOUTH AFRICAN TRAINMEN

     On Tuesday, September 15, 1998, at 3:32 a.m.,
railroad engineer J.L. de Villiers "was reducing speed
as my train" reached Schalkrust station.  "This is near
Lydenburg in South Africa.  Next to the station is a flat
field about three square kilometers (wide)."
     "A strange orange/yellowish light was moving upward
and downward in the middle of the field at a very fast
speed," de Villiers reported.
     ""It could not have been a very large object, say, about
the size of a soccer ball or a little bigger.  It moved upwards
at great speed, say, 60 feet or so and then returned to
ground level and then go up again.  After about a minute,
it just vanished."
     Leon Bouwer, UFO Roundup's correspondent in South
Africa, reported that Lydenburg is in Mpumulanga province,
formerly the East Transvaal, approximately 280 kilometers
(168 miles) northeast of Johannesburg.  "The East Transvaal
is full of coal fields and is dotted with electrical power
generating stations, and has a lot of railway lines as a
result."  He added that there are several abandoned coal
mines burning with underground fires in the region and that
the train crew may have seen a burning "gas geyser" near
Schalkrust station.  (Many thanks to Stig Agermose and
Errol Bruce-Knapp for this news story.  And thanks also to
Leon Bouwer for the background information.)

TRIANGULAR UFO SIGHTED IN
LONDONDERRY, NEW HAMPSHIRE

     On Thursday, September 10, 1998, at 11:30 p.m., Dan H.
was driving on Mammoth Road in Londonderry, New
Hampshire (population 970) when he "spotted a triangular-
shaped formation of three bright white lights over the trees
ahead of my car."
     At first, Dan thought the lights belonged to an aircraft
attempting to land in nearby Manchester, N.H., but he
"then realized that it was too low and in the wrong direction
for the local (airport) landing pattern."
     "He described the lights as consisting of two high lights
and one single light down lower, giving the object the
impression of tilting down in the 'front.'  The object suddenly
'jumped' over to the left without turning and stopped again.
The witness described the motion with a quick sweep of
his hand, implying that it was nearly instantaneous.  After
this he lost sight of the object behind some trees."  (Many
thanks to Greg St. Pierre and Errol Bruce-Knapp for
forwarding this report.)

TRIANGULAR UFO SEEN IN
NORTHERN OHIO

     On Friday, September 4, 1998, a witness was driving on
Route 252 in West Medina, Ohio when he spotted "three
individual lights" in the sky, arrayed in a triangular shape.
     "Upon close approach, the witness observed that the
lights were connected to one very large triangular or black
object...The object was reportedly moving very slowly and
not making any sound, as the witness drove around the top
of a hill and found two other cars also watching the object,
which was 150 yards overhead and slowly drifting to the east."
     The witness described the other cars as "a purple-colored
Saturn and the other drove a red Honda.  The gentleman who
had the Saturn was actually standing outside of his car,
looking at the object.  I pulled over next to the Honda and
asked the guy if he knew what it was.  He did not."
     "At this point" the UFO "flashed a bright blue flash of
light, similar to the flash of a camera," and the witnesses
hastily beat a retreat.
     When the witness reached his home on Wolff Road,
he "ran into his house and called his wife outside to view
the object, but it was no longer there."
     On Monday, September 7, 1998, at 11:30 p.m., the
witness had a second sighting of the triangular UFO,
"but it was not as close" as the previous sighting.
     Medina is on Ohio Routes 3 and 42 about 26 miles
(41 kilometers) southwest of Cleveland.  The case is
being investigated by Larry Clark of New York MUFON.
(Many thanks to Kenneth Young of Tri-States Advocates
for Scientific Knowledge, T.A.S.K., for forwarding this
news story.)

MORE UFO ACTIVITY REPORTED
IN NORTHERN GEORGIA

     On Saturday, September 5, 1998, a man spotted a
white UFO in LaGrange, Georgia (population 25,957), a
town 64 miles (102 kilometers) southwest of Atlanta.
The witness reported, "The craft was seen for only a few
seconds but was extremely bright white and shaped like
a boomerang.  It made no sound.  The craft was only
60 yards away and about the size of a minivan.  There was
no fuselage, just the wing."
     On Sunday, September 13, 1998, at 8 p.m., Elaine
Belisha and her 14-year-old daughter, Marilyn Chen, had a
UFO encounter in Norcross, Georgia (population 5,947),
a town on Highway 23 about 21 miles (33 kilometers)
northeast of Atlanta.  Marilyn told her mother that she had
just seen "a translucent, boomerang-shaped aircraft."
     Elaine reported, "I asked her to draw a picture, thinking
it might have been a Stealth bomber, but it had a very large
wingspan relative to its size than the Stealth."
     Later the same evening, at 10:56 p.m., witnesses in
Heard County, about 10 miles (16 kilometers) north of
LaGrange, observed "a large red pulsating light.  The UFO
was moving east-northeast, just 'bobbing' along at 1,000
feet (300 meters) altitude.  The large red light dimmed and
grew brighter but never went off completely.  The light was
an estimated two or three miles away, and had an apparent
size of four times that of the planet Venus.  There was also
a bluish-white light that seemed steady and seemed diffused.
The witness did not understand how a pilot could fly with so
much light coming out of the craft.  The bright light was
apparently underneath, because the large light obscured"
the craft.  (See Filer's Files #37 for 1998.  Many thanks to
George A. Filer of MUFON and John C. Thompson of ISUR
for these reports.)

EX-DEFENSE CHIEF CLAIMS THAT
RAF FELTWELL IS BRITAIN'S
AREA 51

     In an interview with the UK newspaper Sunday People,
Lord Hill-Norton, chief of the UK defence staff during the
1970s, claimed that the air base RAF Feltwell in Suffolk
is the site where NATO forces track unidentified saucers
coming in from space.
     Based at RAF Feltwell is the 5th Space Surveillance
Squadron, U.S. Air Force.  Lord Hill-Norton told the
newspaper that the squadron "is tracking UFOs that may
threaten Earth."
     Lord Hill-Norton said he was "puzzled" by the USAF
squadron's presence at the base, adding, "I have asked a
number of questions about it and never get a satisfactory
answer."
     "The (UK) Ministry of Defence did admit that RAF
Feltwell has a special U.S. unit 'tracking man-made objects
in deep space.'"
     "But it refused to answer Hill-Norton's questions about
how many objects 'remain unidentified and how many of
these were transmitting a signal,' citing the need for
secrecy."
     "An MoD spokesman said, ' We are entitled to refuse
certain information on topics which we consider to be
sensitive.'"
     "But he did admit UFOs will be tracked if they are
spotted."
     "'They need to catalogue everything up in space,'
he added."
     Lord Hill-Norton remains skeptical, however.  He
responded, "For a start, there are no man-made objects
in interstellar space.  So I want to know what they are
really doing.  And I want to know what the Government is
doing about the UFO problem.  There are things flying
about in our atmosphere, and we don't know what they
are, who directs them or what their purpose might be.
We ought to know."
     "Hill-Norton believes that UFOs are the products
of 'extra-terrestrial intelligences.'"  (See the newspaper
Sunday People for September 13, 1998.  Many thanks
to John Hayes for forwarding the newspaper article.)

SOHO RESTORED TO ITS
PROPER ORBIT

     On Wednesday, September 16, 1998, at 2:29 p.m.,
ground controllers at the Goddard Spacecraft Center in
Greenbelt, Maryland successfully transmitted maneuver
commands to the Solar and Heliospheric Observatory,
restoring the sun-watching satellite to its proper orbit.
     The SOHO Flight Operations Team sent "a series of
commands directing the spacecraft to fire its thrusters and
turn its five solar power panels fully toward the Sun."
     "The maneuver, which is called attitude recovery," will
allow SOHO to repower its onboard batteries, which were
severly depleted after the satellite spun out of control
back on June 24.
     "'It's a big step forward in our recovery plan for SOHO,'
said John Credland, ESA's (European Space Agency--J.T.)
head of scientific projects.  'We were never quite sure that
we would manage to make the spacecraft point back at
the Sun...I congratulate our joint ESA-NASA team, helped
by our industrial contractors...'"
     "'This is the best news we've had from SOHO in a long
time,' said Dr. George Withroe, director of the Sun-Earth
Connection science project at NASA headquarters in
Washington, D.C.  'Despite the gloomy early days after
the'" June 24 loss, "'we always stayed hopeful that our
resourceful people on the team could save the day.  We're
not there yet--we shall have to see if the scientific instruments
survived.  But this gives us reason to hope.'"
     During its two months as a "space derelict," floating at
a Lagrangian point one million miles (1.6 million kilometers)
sunward from Earth, SOHO's delicate instruments were
exposed to astounding temperature variations.  According
to Dr. Bernhard Flock, ESA's project scientist for SOHO,
the satellite's instruments were exposed "to temperatures
approaching plus or minus 100 degrees Celsius (212 degrees
Fahrenheit.)"  (Many thanks to Steve Wilson Sr. for the
NASA news release.)
(Editor's Comment:  Now the race is on to get SOHO up and
running before the peak period of solar activity--the highest
in eleven years--begins in early 1999.)

from the UFO Files...

1978: UFO LEVITATES A RACE
          CAR IN ARGENTINA

     Twenty years ago, on September 25, 1978, Argentinian
business man Carlos Acevedo, 38, and his mechanic,
Miguel Angel Moya, 28, were completing the final lap of
a cross-country endurance race in Buenos Aires province,
Argentina.  Because of "mechanical problems," their car
had to withdraw from formal competition in the 1,000-
kilometer (600-mile) road race, and they were on their way
back to the city of Buenos Aires.
     "Acevedo was driving at about 100 km per hour
(60 miles per hour).  A bright yellow light approached from
the rear at high speed, illuminated the interior of the car
and blinded them."
     "He lost control of the car and then saw that they were
about two meters (6.6 feet) above the ground.  The car
continued to float, and their vision was restricted by the
brilliant light.  They lost all sense of time."
     "Finally they felt a bump and noticed that their car
was back on the road, a considerable distance away from
the point where the encounter began.  They saw a
yellowish object retreating in the distance."
     "When they analyzed the circumstances, they found
that it had taken 2 hours and 20 minutes to travel a
distance that should have taken only 1 hour and 15
minutes.  They also found that their reserve gas (petrol)
tank, recently filled, was now empty.  They stopped at
the nearest police department, in Pedro Luro, and
reported the incident.  (See the Argentinian newspaper
Cronica for September 24 and 25, 1978.  See also
MUFON UFO Journal #140 for October 1979 and the
book UNINVITED GUESTS by Richard Hall, Aurora
Press, Santa Fe, N.M., 1988, pages 297 and 298.)

FUN UFO WEBSITES:
     A quick correction on the URL for Miami UFO
Reporter. The correct URL is this: http://www.
geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html
     UFO Network has had a total revamp at their
site.  Check it out at http://www.ufonetwork.com
     For more on the recent UFO sightings in France,
drop in at the CNES website.  They're at this URL:
http://www.cnes.fr
     Don't forget to visit our parent site, UFO INFO,
which boasts a wide array of UFO information.  Set
your browser on http://ufoinfo.com
     Back issues of UFO Roundup can be accessed
and downloaded at our page, which you'll find at
http://ufoinfo.com/roundup

     Tomorrow is the birthday of that multi-talented
British polymath Michael Faraday.  Born on September
22, 1791, Faraday first made a name for himself in
chemistry, discovering the molecular structure of
benzene and carbon chloride.  Becoming interested
in electricity, Faraday switched his field to physics.
Before his death on August 25, 1867, he had laid
the groundwork for the practical use of electricity.

     We'll be back next week with more saucer news
from around the planet, brought to you by "the paper
that goes home--UFO Roundup."  See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1998 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or
in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter
and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the news item appeared.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 21

                         Re: Real and Apparent Size?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:33:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:26:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Real and Apparent Size?


> From: Tinus de Beer <mufon-sa@icon.co.za>
> To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>
> Subject: Real and Apparent Size
> Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:21:25 +0200

> I would like to obtain information on formulas used to calculate
> any one of the following should any two of them be available:
> apparent size, real size and distance.

> I'm sure there must be a direct link between these three variables?
> Apparently size DOES matter :)

Tinus, size certainly matters, for any number of reasons.

There are simple and direct formulas relating these three
values, real and apparent size, and distance.

I propose the following.

REAL size is just that, in meters ( or feet if need be ) just as
one would measure any other physical object or phenomenon.

APPARENT size should be expressed in ANGULAR "width", i.e.
degrees and minutes, ( or equivalent ) which is some segment of
an arc.

For example, the Sun and the Moon have almost identical APPARENT
sizes, but vastly different real sizes.

I just hate it when a witness describes an unknown object at an
unknown distance as being "the size of a baseball". Does this
mean it would fit into a lunch-pail? Sheesh!

Since few witnesses have their theodolites and other instruments
with them at the time, I suggest that they simply put up their
hand at full

arm's length, and compare the object to the apparent width of
their fingers, their fist, not to mention anything else nearby.

The Sine of the angle is equal to the ratio of the actual size
of the object,  divided by the distance.

For example, the sine of two degrees is about 0.035.  An sphere
subtending this angle would be about 35 feet is diameter
ASSUMING it is 1000 feet away.  If it is half that distance, it
is half that actual size.

Real simple, and this goes for meters, furlongs etc. etc. as
long as all measurements use the same units, metric or
otherwise.

The first chapter of any trigonometry book will give the exact
formulas spelled out in various useful ways.

Never let somebody express an " apparent size " of so many
meters or feet or other measure of length/width/diameter.

Apparent size is an ANGLE, expressed in degrees and minutes, or
radians.  ( sometimes "mils" or about 1/1000th of a radian. ).

A radian is that segment of a circle whose curved length is
exactly equal to the radius, hence the name.

One radian is about 57 degrees 17 minutes and 45 seconds.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 21

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Bourdais Gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:59:31 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:30:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:45:19 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:21:18 +0200
>>From: bourdais gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

><snippety snip>

>>Again, Cavitt, the only living witness of the retrieval
>>operation, does not remember at all any Mogul debris.

><more snippety snip>

>>Gildas Bourdais

>Gildas,

>Just out of sheer curiousity, how did you become aware of the
>fact, carved in stone as usual, that Cavitt is the only living
>witness of the retrieval operation?

>Does this mean you discount Frank Kaufmann's testimony?


Of course, I did not mean that, as you are surely aware of. I
was thinking about the Marcel/Cavitt retrieval operation on the
debris field: Marcel and Brazel are dead. But you jump on the
occasion, obviously, to avoid answering the rest of the message.

Gildas







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 21

                               Re: TNT-Special

From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:47:28 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:28:11 -0400
Subject: Re: TNT-Special


>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:38:02 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: TNT-Special

>>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:25:18 +0200
>>From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: TNT-Special

>>Hi all,

>>I heared there was a re-run of the KGB-UFO special that TNT would
>>broadcast on Tuesday 22nd of September.

>>Now it would be wonderful if anyone one out there, would be so
>>kind and tape it for us...Just let us now, so we can forward our
>>postal-address.

>>Of course we're willing to pay the tape or send an empty one in
>>return, whatever you prefer!

>Andy-

>        Can you view an NTSC video tape?

>Steve


Hi Steve,

Yes! a NTSC tape would do it aswell. I'll give you my homeadress
right away. I'm sure we'll work out how to repay you for that
tape and the effort ;-)

Thanks for now,

Andy.

A.U.R.A.
Andy Denne
Van Nispenstraat 2
6521 KL Nijmegen
The Netherlands






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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 21

              Re: Strange Object Over Schalksrust, South Africa

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:23:23 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:36:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Object Over Schalksrust, South Africa


>From: Maurice Kellett <SETI54@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:19:50 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Strange Object Over Schalksrust, South Africa

>About fourteen years ago I was taking our Alsation dog for his
>last exercise of the day at around 9.30pm. We were in a deserted
>industrial site when a bright light (clear) came very slowly
>towards us.

<snip>

Maurice,

A very sober and pleasant letter. I am of a similar mind. I
sometimes feel like a child when gazing at the stars.

I am reminded of my smallness in the grand scheme of things. I
realize how little I really know, no matter how much I THINK I
know. I have no ego whispering to me about my mental or
evolutionary superiority. I have no corporate funding to worry
about. I have published no papers about the impossibility of
alien life visiting the earth. I have no barriers to prevent me
from embracing the possibility. I refuse to close my eyes because
others around me do. And I can think of no good reason why I
should. There is happiness in the contemplation that occasionally
we aren't alone on this rock, and sadness in the insistance that
we are.

Greg






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   Sep > Sep 21

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Phot

From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 00:12:17 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:33:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Phot


>From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 03:36:12 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject:Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>['Mature' Content - Reader Discretion Advised -- ebk]

>In a message dated 98-09-21 02:05:20 EDT, Jerome of Arrogance
>wrote:

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>Date: Sun, 20 Sep 98 12:09:52 PDT


><snip>

>>You know, Waterboy, that's exactly the way I feel about the
>>never-ending stream of sludge that pours out of you. Besides
>>being one of the rudest people I've ever known inside or outside
>>ufology, you also are a bore -- as well as a boor -- of
>>world-class proportions.

>Oh, my!  I'm crushed!  CUFOS' Minister of Propaganda, their
>answer to little Joey Geobbels, doesn't like me.  Boo-hoo!

>I'm only unpleasant to pretentious scum like you, and the
>liars they promote.  You're a pompous, self-righteous twit
>who's in love with the sound of his own words -- every one
>is pure gold, isn't it Jerome?  Of course it is.


I'm just shocked by the agression of this postings.

I also cannot understand how any one with a sane mind, would
compare some-one with Goebbels or any Nazi for that matter. How
can one be that ignorant of one of the darkest periods in
history of man-kind.

Did you have your grandparents killed by the national-socialists
in WW2? Did your parents almost starve to death just like every
older person in your surroundings? Well, a lot of people
(especially here in Europe)_did_. I think it would be good for
anyone who thinks he can use horrors like this for a low hit in
a discussion,( just because he ran out of _real_ argumentation)
to listen to the stories of people who had to actually _live_
through the nazi-regime. That would probably change his mind...
Allthough for some people war will always just be another movie
on CNN ;-)

I'm shocked, that's all I can say...

Andy.

{And for Jerry: ignore it, and remember: never argue with the
 mindless, people might not know the difference ;-) }






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:26:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:15:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:45:19 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:21:18 +0200
>>From: bourdais gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

><snippety snip>

>>Again, Cavitt, the only living witness of the retrieval
>>operation, does not remember at all any Mogul debris.

><more snippety snip>

>>Gildas Bourdais


>Gildas,

>Just out of sheer curiousity, how did you become aware of the
>fact, carved in stone as usual, that Cavitt is the only living
>witness of the retrieval operation?

>Does this mean you discount Frank Kaufmann's testimony?

AS I recall the Weaver's report on Cavitt's testimony, it was
Weaver who wrote that Cavitt is "universally acknowledged to
have been involved". This does not say that Cavitt was the only
living witness, only that everyone acknowledges his presence
(although, after reading his testimony, which I posted a week or
so ago, one wonders just where Cavitt's head was during the
retrieval,.....if he was, in fact, there. )


Ans, speaking of Cavitt's testimony, you will recall that he
made the claim that at a cookout some time after the event Jesse
Marcel brought out a piece of the material. Obviously this would
mean Marcel had kept some. I have spoken to Jesse Marcel, Jr.
several times since then, mst recently a week or so ago in New
Hampshire, and he has assured me that there was no such event
and that his father had kept none of the material.

I suppose he would feel duty bound to hand over to "the
authorities" all rubber, balsa woods, strings, foil, etc. and
keep none of it as a souvenir of the most publicized event in
his life.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA






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   Sep > Sep 21

                         Re: Real and Apparent Size?

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:26:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:13:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Real and Apparent Size?


>From: Tinus de Beer <mufon-sa@icon.co.za>
>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>
>Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:21:25 +0200
>Subject: Real and Apparent Size?

>Hello list,

>I would like to obtain information on formulas used to calculate
>any one of the following should any two of them be available:
>apparent size, real size and distance.

>I'm sure there must be a direct link between these three variables?
>Apparently size DOES matter :)

>Any takers?

>All the best.

>Tinus de Beer


Yes, Tinus, size does matter. Even more, ANGULAR size does
matter. When you say apparent size, I presume you mean "angular
size". Angular size can be expressed in degrees, but of more
direct use is the angular size in radians. There are 2 pi
radians of angle around a point and there are 360 degrees. Hence
there are 2 pi/360 = 0.01745 radians per degree. Alternatively,
360/2pi = 57.3 degrees per radian.

For small angles the tangent of the angle equals the angle
measured in radians. This is important because when looking at
an object of length L, measured perpendicular to the line of
sight, when the object is at distance D, there is a ratio D/L
which defines the angle, A, which could be called the angular
size. To be "perfectly" accurate, imagine the line of sight
intersects L at its midpoint. Then on either side of the
midpoint is a length L/2 and from trigonometry, TAN(A/2) =
(L/2)/D, where A is the angle (in radians) between sighting
lines from the viewing point (O in the diagram below) to the two
ends of L:
_ ______

*|      |
                                                             *
 |      |
                                                *
 |    L/2
                                    *
 |      |
                             O  angle  A------------------------- L
----------Line of Sight
                                    *
 |      |
                                                *
 |      L/2
                                                              *
 |      |

*--------
                              |------------  D ------------------|



This formula works for large and small angles.   However, if the
angle is less than 20 degrees is is usually allowable to
APPROXIMATE the TAN A by the angle A itself written in
radians. Note: TAN 20 degrees = 0.364. Compare to
20 degrees which, when converted to radians, is 0.349.
This corresponds to about a 4% error if you approximate
the tangent of the angle by the value of the angle measured
in radians.

For smaller angles the agreement is even better..

If we replace TAN(A/2) by its numerical approximation,
A/2, and write    A/2 = (L/2)/D, we can then derive the
simple expression relating size (which matters) to the
angular size and th distance:

A = L/D   or, if you are given the angular (i.e., apparent)
size and the distance, you can calculate the actual size
(as measured perpendicular to the sighting line) as

                                 L = AD.

For an object the angular sized of the moon or
sun, approximately 1/2 degree or about 0.009 radians
(9 milliradians),  at a distance of 1 km, the actual size
(perpendicular to the lie of sight) would be about
0.009 x 1000 = 9 meters.

Note that this calculation only gives the size as
"projected" onto a line that is perpendicular to the
line of sight.   If the main axis of the object is not at
a 90 degree angle to the line of sight then its
actual length would be greater than calculated here.

Hope this answers your question....without providing
extreme confusion or overkill.






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:28:57 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:38:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>Date: Sun, 20 Sep 98 12:09:52 PDT

>>From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
>>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:42:07 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>It's a little disingenuous of you and Rudiak to demand official
>>records that would clearly link Mogul/NYU balloons to the
>>Roswell incident, when you don't believe any government records
>>that dispute the alien spaceship explanation for Roswell. Who
>>are you trying to kid?

>Don't you mean "whom"?

OK, _whom_ are you trying to kid? Several high echelon documents
recovered under the FOIA are now in the public domain which
specifically state that NO flying disc (or extraordinary
wreckage) had been recovered. However, since they didn't
specifically specify that NO flying disc (or extraordinary
wreckage) had been recovered AT Roswell, you apparently take
that omission as _validation_ of Roswell, which is to turn their
meaning exactly upsidedown, all the while accusing the dread
"anti-Roswellians" of interpreting the documents to their own
ends. In reality, all they're doing is interpreting them
literally, and at face value. Since the documents and statements
can't be wished away, they have to be devalued, even if the
devaluation involves having to jump through all sorts of
semantic and intellectual hoops. And where is the much-vaunted
open-mind of Clark, of which we are so frequently reminded, on
this issue? See below. > > >>Let's look at one authentic
document, a 1st Indorsement, dated 8 >>November 1948, from Col.
H.M. McCoy, Chief, Intelligence >>Division, Air Materiel
Command, to Basic Letter, dated 3 >>November 1948, from
Headquarters, USAF, addressed to the >>Commanding General, AMC,
originally classified "only" Secret. >>Paragraph 8 states: >
>>"The possibility that the reported objects are vehicles from
>>another planet has not been ignored. However, tangible
evidence >>to support conclusions about such a possibility are
completely >>lacking." > >>This is an unambiguous statement not
open to interpretation by >>rational human beings. > >Apparently
our friend considers himself a "rational human >being." Our
friend, of course, defines rationality as 100% >agreement with
whatever he chooses to believe. Those willing to >consider the
possibility, however unimaginably slight, that a >rational human
being could come to other conclusions will want >to read Michael
D. Swords's "The McCoy Letter" in IUR for Spring >1997. A word
of warning, however: In so doing, you will be >leaving yourself
open to being called -- by our friend here -- a >jackass, a
fanatic, a true believer, a bunkum artist, or an >opportunist.

I've read it. Michael Swords is a rational human being, but he
is neither an historian nor an expert in military procedure, nor
a military historian. Nor does his article address the McCoy
document in the context of the several other existing documents
which say the same thing, including Ruppelt's comments. Nor does
it address Printy's criticisms of similar hoop jumping by
Randle, ie, that if Swords were right, "these military men would
be making false official statements. This is a punishable
offense under military law." And of course such falsifications
were totally unnecessary, as McCoy, Cabell, Ruppelt and the
others had no way of knowing that their comments would ever be
open to public scrutiny.

Of Randle's hoop jumping, and, by extension, Swords's similar
acrobatics, Printy says, "[these] statements might sell to the
gullible, non-military person on the street but for a military
member, this is pure hogwash."

I urge everyone to read the Swords article, and then to look at
Printy at:

http://members.aol.com/TPrinty/end.html

And then to draw their own conclusions. The pity is that this
issue could, theoretically, be resolved by submitting the
original documents and ufologists' arguments against the literal
interpretation of same to an individual military historian (or
panel) conversant with procedure, and letting him, her or them
issue an informed opinion. Highly unlikely it will ever happen,
but there's the suggestion, nonetheless.

<snip>

>>Of course, the 8 November 1948 document was classified "only"
>>Secret, and UFO luminaries, such as Kevin Randle, Stanton
>>Friedman, and Michael Swords, can always claim that McCoy -- who
>>headed the Air Force's unit responsible for assessing foreign
>>technology, and you can't get any more foreign than alien
>>spacecraft -- either didn't know the truth about the recovery of
>>an alien spaceship in Roswell, or lied to his superiors about
>>the existence of evidence that would prove the UFOs are
>>extraterrestrial, because either he had no need to know, or his
>>superiors had no need to know -- depending on which version of
>>the irrational rationalization one uses.

>>But that's only one of dozens of such documents -- ranging in
>>classification from unclassified to Top Secret -- that show
>>_conclusively_ that the Air Force had not recovered any alien
>>spaceships. Not to worry, preposterous rationalizations can be
>>made to explain these documents away too. If the document is
>>from General Twining, commanding general of the AMC, to Air
>>Force Headquarters, well, obviously General Twining had the need
>>to know, but the people in Air Force Headquarters didn't.
>>Twining could carry out his scientific study of the alien craft
>>without Air Force Headquarters ever finding out.

>>Or, Twining knew about the Roswell alien spacecraft, but he
>>couldn't mention it in documents classified only Secret, so he
>>lied to his superiors about the existence of alien spacecraft,
>>no doubt snickering into his sleeve.

<snip>

>>By all means, let's not make _any_ effort to determine whether
>>or not a witness is being truthful. Let's just accept at face
>>value everything witnesses say.

>Does such bloviation deserve a serious response? I'd think
>Waterboy here was joking if I'd ever seen the faintest evidence
>that this poor guy possesses a sense of humor. Talk about
>constructing a straw man.

The guttersniping aside, since when did ufology abdicate the
responsibility of trying to determine when a witness was lying,
exaggerating, or merely mistaken?

>>Yeah, well, I'm a little curious about the silence on the part
>>of the true believer "investigators" regarding a gentleman by
>>the name of Lorenzo Kent Kimball, who was a captain in the Army
>>Air Force in July of 1947, and was assigned to Squadron M (Base

>>Hospital) of the 509th Bomb Group at Roswell Army Air Field at
>>the time of the Roswell incident. Contrary to what Glenn Dennis
>>has claimed, Mr. Kimball says there was no base mortuary
>>officer, that he himself would have been responsible for any
>>functions of a base mortuary officer. He says he never met Glenn
>>Dennis, and has no recollection of ever calling him for
>>anything. He also says he spoke with the former commander of the
>>base hospital, Dr. Jack Comstock, before he died in 1996, and
>>Dr. Comstock said that "NOTHING" of the nature described in the
>>Roswell books occurred at the base hospital in 1947. I would
>>suggest that everybody visit Mr. Kimball's website at:

>>http://www.inconnect.com/%7Elorenzok/roswell.html

>I would, too. Unfortunately, Kimball undermines his case by
>claiming at the end of an interesting contribution (which, as is
>so often the case in the tangled Roswell web, contradicts the
>testimonies of others who were there) by insisting that
>_nothing_ was covered up, a pretense even the AF has abandoned.

Clark's reading of Kimball's comments is either deliberately
disingenuosness, or merely hopelessly muddled. I, too, urge
everyone to visit Kimball's web page and compare it with the
characterization Clark offers up here, expecially his
exceedingly strange assertion that, "unfortunately, Kimball
undermines his case...by insisting that _nothing_ was covered
up, a pretense even the AF has been abandoned."

Kimball nowhere addresses the Mogul issue or the Ramey press
conference in Ft. Worth, where the cover-up took place. He
addresses only those issues he had personal knowledge of, which
is why his web page is titled a "personal perspective."
Kimball's "nothing" refers to unusual base activity at the time,
and the issue of whether alien bodies were brought to the base
and autopsied. He also contributes to the ongoing deconstruction
of Glenn Dennis's story as just that -- a story -- and further
documents the sloppy reporting of Roswell by Randle and Schmitt,
and, arguably, Friedman, all of which Clark glosses over in his
dismissive characterization. Clark is the objective, open-minded
encyclopedist of the field, and _this_ is his studied,
considered reaction to a new, previously unreported and unquoted
major source of information? To paraphrase: "Interesting, but he
only contradicts already existing witnesses and undermines his
own case."

Not nearly as much as he undermines Dennis, Randle, Schmitt and
Friedman.

<snip>

>Jerry Clark

Dennis Stacy






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   Sep > Sep 21

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:52:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:40:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:35:55 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bruce Lanier Wright <magnus@io.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
>>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 03:36:12 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject:Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>>I'm only unpleasant to pretentious scum like you, and the
>>liars they promote.  You're a pompous, self-righteous twit
>>who's in love with the sound of his own words -- every one
>>is pure gold, isn't it Jerome?  Of course it is.

>My, _that's_ a compelling argument.

>Bruce W.

. . .Herr Todd's expression from a late winter of contentment --
he used it on the wrong guy. Used on me it would have been truly
wounding <g>.

If you can't attack the argument . . . attack regardless!
Moreover, I'm certainly glad that a human being of such special
sensitivity, soaring spirituality, and obvious open-mindedness
as Mr. Todd is _around_ to point out so _clearly_ who these
liars _are_.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Restore John Ford.
--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 12 September>

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.







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   Sep > Sep 21

                               Re: TNT-Special

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:08:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:42:32 -0400
Subject: Re: TNT-Special


>Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:47:28 +0200
>From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: TNT-Special

>Hi Steve,

>Yes! a NTSC tape would do it aswell. I'll give you my homeadress
>right away. I'm sure we'll work out how to repay you for that
>tape and the effort ;-)

>Thanks for now,

>Andy.

>A.U.R.A.
>Andy Denne
>Van Nispenstraat 2
>6521 KL Nijmegen
>The Netherlands

Just to let you know, Andy, I have a converter which will allow
me to conver to or from the PAL format as well as to and from the
Japanese version of NTSC.

If you ever need help with this, please let me know.

REgards, Mike







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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:54:31 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:40:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:26:18 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>Sender: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>

>I suppose he would feel duty bound to hand over to "the
>authorities" all rubber, balsa woods, strings, foil, etc. and
>keep none of it as a souvenir of the most publicized event in
>his life.

>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Bruce,

Does all this hilarious laughter mean you believe in the Kaufmann
Fairy, too?

Does it also mean that you believe that the Roswell Fire
Department was present at the retrieval of bodies, even though
Randle, who admits he has a copy of the FD's records for 1947,
also admits that the records don't show any out of city activity
for the dates in dispute?

Does it also mean that you still accept the questionable
testimony of Glenn Dennis and Jim Ragsdale, two other Roswell
knee-slappers, along with the high hilarity of Gerald Anderson,
the Anaya brothers, and camp cook Melvin Brown?

Off-hand, I'd say you've got plenty to laugh about.

Dennis






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Bruce Lanier Wright <magnus@io.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:43:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:36:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 00:12:17 +0200
>From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>I also cannot understand how any one with a sane mind, would
>compare some-one with Goebbels or any Nazi for that matter. How
>can one be that ignorant of one of the darkest periods in
>history of man-kind.

This is because there is a strange, puzzling, and yet irrefutable
law of Internet debate which dictates that, in each and every
nasty quarrel, someone will compare someone else to the Nazis.

Bruce W.








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   Sep > Sep 21

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:11:14 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:33:38 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:45:20 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell
>>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:28:07 -0300

>>I have just come back on the list, obviously having missed a
>>splendid paper by Dave Rudiak on Roswell..

>Not really, Stan. You see, I haven't quite been able to pin Dave
>down as to what he thinks about the number of crash sites and
>the recovered alien bodies you propose below. Maybe he'll weigh
>in, either confirming or denying your scenario. That _would_ be
>splendid, not to mention highly interesting, if only to see
>whether you two are on the same flight path, or headed for some
>sort of aerial misadventure.

>>I just wanted to point out that the odds of a mid air collision
>>between 2 saucers were pretty good since according to Ted
>>Bloecher's report 40% of the 850+ sightings he recorded for the
>>wave of l947 involved more than one object seen at a time.

>What the hell does "pretty good" mean? Most military operations
>are conducted in tandem or formation. Does that make the odds of
>a mid-air collision "pretty good"? No, it simply slightly
>increases the already low odds of one aircraft malfunctioning
>and colliding with another one. "Pretty good" is perfectly
>meaningless. If the odds of a mid-air collision were really
>"pretty good," then our own military probably wouldn't fly in
>formation at all.

>>Think of a pilot and a wingman. If they ran into a totally
>>unexpected lightning bolt or a radar beam which we know was on
>>because of an anticipated V-2 launch with data being required
>>72,48,24,4 hours before launch, then the guidance or propulsion
>>system of one or both might have been temprarily disrupted.

>Hedging your bets, aren't you? If radar and lightning bolts were
>so deadly to tandem-flying UFOs -- and remember the latter were
>constructed of purportedly indestructible material -- why
>weren't they falling out of the skies left and right during the
>1947 wave? In other words, out of Ted Bloecher's 850 reports,
>how many were of two or more UFOs crashing simultaneously to
>earth? It wouldn't be one, would it? Does 850 divided by one
>represent "pretty good" odds? Maybe Dave's splendid Roswell
>paper backs you up on this logical fallacy, too? Or maybe Dave
>begs to disagree? Who knows?

>>I am personally convinced that were indeed 2 sets of bodies, one
>>in the Plains, and one set a few miles from the Brazel debris
>>field.

>Which is partly the problem, but let me see if I've got this
>straight: One UFO crashed on the Foster ranch in two parts, one
>part of which had no bodies, the other part of which had all the
>bodies. And a second UFO in one part crashed with bodies on the
>Plains. Am I correct in assuming this means you don't accept
>Kaufmann et al's account of yet another crash site, with bodies,
>nearer to Roswell? I keep telling everyone I'm confused about
>Roswell, but Splendid Dave just makes fun of me. I keep waiting
>for him to straighten us out all on the competing claims about
>Roswell, but he just accuses me of debunker double standards and
>changing the subject, and then ignores my entreaty. Once again,
>since you think Dave's paper is so splendid, I'd like to know
>how splendid he thinks yours is. He could begin by telling us
>his objective assessment of how many UFOs crashed, when and
>where, and which ones involved body recoveries.

>>The first would never have been brought to Roswell, the latter
>>as described by the Photographer I met with and presumably the
>>smelly ones brought to Roswell as noted by Glenn Dennis.

>Glenn Dennis? I don't think even Splendid Dave is still taking
>Glenn Dennis seriously, let alone his missing-in-action nurse --
>the one who supposedly participated in the autopsies -- but,
>again, if I'm wrong, Dave can set me straight by publicly
>endorsing Dennis and his fabulous story. The endorsement doesn't
>have to be splendid. A ringing endorsement will suffice.

>>One description of the gash in the side of the Plains saucer was
>>like two parentheses face to face.

>>Sounds like 2 saucers colliding.

>That, or a broken tambourine.

><snip>

>>Pilot and wingman fly close to each other.

>>STF

>Authors and uncovered evidence are supposed to fly close
>together, too. Apparently, you interviewed Lorenzo Kimball as
>early as 1992, yet I don't recall seeing his name ever mentioned
>in any of your writings about Roswell. I trust you weren't
>trying to avoid a mid-air collision?

>In fact, I don't recall Kimball being interviewed and/or quoted
>by Randle and Schmitt, either, although I'm sure that
>considerable effort was expended by everyone in an attempt to
>confirm or disconfirm Glenn Dennis's highly dubious account
>(which even Randle now disavows). Wasn't it?

>Never mind that it took an outside journalist less than a week
>or two to cast serious aspersions on the reality of Dennis's
>nurse -- effectively burying her an non-existent -- Roswell
>researchers everywhere will be forever appreciative of the way
>you three managed to uncover, and then perpetuate, Dennis's
>self-serving account for years. Bravo! Splendid!

>In all frankness, I can only wonder: How many other witnesses
>did you, Randle and Schmitt interview whose negative testimony
>failed to make it into print? Perhaps Doubtless Dave knows,
>because I don't, and neither do the rest of us.

>Hopefully, someone can set us all straight with yet another
>splendid paper on Roswell, one which spells out what really
>happened in a concise, straightforward scenario that we can all
>understand.

>Dennis


Yes, I did interview Lorenzo kimball back several years ago and
agin within the past year. He was certainly right about the
buildings being chnaged at Roswell.

I also interviewed Jesse Johnson's wife.

I have interviewed many people who led me to other people or
provided some interesting comments. I have not described them
all. I don't for example list as witnesses everybody I have
talked to, partly because many witnessed nothing.

Most people in NM in July 1945 did NOT observe the Trinity test.
Some did. The testimony of all those that didn't doesn't
invalidate the testimony of those that did.

Of course I don't accept Kaufmann's testimony. I listened to him
tell his story. I find it totally unbelievable. Note the letter
from the previous owners of the land that the site was
unreachable by any vehicle.

I do not believe that Blanchard who in contrast to Kimball's
remarks actually made 4 star General before his death as Vice
Chief of Staff, would have gone out cross country in the middle
of the night without any clue as to what was there.. especially
taking Jesse with him as has been claimed by Frank Kaufman.
There is no evidence he had an intelligence connection while in
the service no less two years after he got out.

There was no Air Defense Command radar in NM in July 1947.
Scanlon was PR guy with ADC back East The range of the White
Sands radar was far too short, ad nauseum.

Back to probabilities for a moment...

The chance of finding any family with a hemophiliac is very
small if picked at random. from a phone book. Of all hemophiliac
families the chance of finding 2 in the same family is very
good. One in 850 is far better odds than one in 10,000.

Anybody know whether mid-air collisions are more or less likely
to involve planes flying more or less together. or simply flying
into another plane at random? The point is that many sightings
involve 2 or more UFOs. If none did, then the idea of a
collision would seem far less likely.

STF





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 22

                         Re: Real and Apparent Size?

From: Bob Thrift - Institute for UFO Research <iufor@frii.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:11:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:48:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Real and Apparent Size?


>From: Tinus de Beer <mufon-sa@icon.co.za>
>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Real and Apparent Size
>Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:21:25 +0200

>Hello list,

>I would like to obtain information on formulas used to calculate
>any one of the following should any two of them be available:
>apparent size, real size and distance.

>I'm sure there must be a direct link between these three variables?
>Apparently size DOES matter :)

>Any takers?


One problem UFO researchers frequently encounter is estimating
the width of an object, given an estimate of the distance to the
object, and the size of some nearby object which would just
cover it visually.

For example, a man tells you, "The UFO could just be covered by
the width of my thumb, held at arm's length. I estimate that it
was about 1 kilometer away."

Leaving aside, for this example, that fact that such distance
estimates are notoriously poor, you measure the width of the
man's thumb (say, 2.5 cm) and the distance from his thumb at
arm's length to his eye (70 cm.) I note in passing that this
apparent width actually represents an angular measurement of the
object, which others have already spoken in favor of.

Then, omitting trigonometric derivations, the estimated actual
width of the object is simply the ratio of the man's
measurements times the estimated distance:

2.5
----- x 1000 m = 35.7 m
70

Note that the estimated width is always in the same units as
those of the estimated distance. The units of the person's
measurements do not matter, as long as both are in the same
units.

The nearby comparison object need not be a thumb, it could be a
coin, a hand, or the pin-sized head of my daughter's boy-friend.
The principle remains the same -- measure the width of the
comparison object, the distance from that object to the eye, and
multiply the ratio of the two times the estimated distance.

Best regards,
Bob

--

===============================================================
|     I N S T I T U T E   F O R   U F O   R E S E A R C H     |
===============================================================
|         Bob Thrift           |    Editor, UFOCUS Magazine   |
|    Webmaster, IUR Web Site   |  http://www.frii.com/~iufor/ |
|    Fort Collins, Colorado    |    email: iufor@frii.com     |
===============================================================






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   Sep > Sep 22

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:48:21 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:51:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:11:48 -0500 (CDT)
>Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 06:02:06 -0400
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>PS: One last, non-flippant subject change.

So that's the only one I'm going to respond to. At least it's
coherently stated and to the point.

>You've mentioned on a
>couple of occasions that McAndrew cropped one of the Ramey
>office pictures to shorten a foreground stick. I've never been
>able to completely follow your argument. Have you published this
>anywhere? If not, could you elaborate?

This is in Attachment 33 to the 1995 A.F. Report, entitled
"Mensuration Working Paper, with Photo and Drawing, February 15,
1994." They analyzed stick length in one of the photos of Ramey
and Dubose (Dubose sitting, holding a piece of foil, looking
right; Ramey squatting down, looking left, and holding your "FBI
telegram" in his hand).

Various sticks in the photo were given letter labels and their
lengths calculated. One stick in the lower right of the photo
labeled "C" is clearly longer than any of the others. Then they
made up a schematic working diagram of the various sticks. On
the schematic (not the photo), stick "C" has clearly been
cropped (compare to photo). It's then listed in a table in
their "mensuration working papers" as being only 35.4 inches
long, or 3 feet.

To gauge the true length of the stick, use the stripes on
Ramey's rug as a ruler. There are about 10 stripes to a foot
(as determined by using stripes in the various photos at the
same distance as the chairs and participants, and then comparing
against typical limb lengths, chair seating heights, etc. The
range of error on this "stripe ruler" is probably on the order
of +/- 5%).

By eye, the stick appears to be tilted w.r.t. the stripes at
about a 45 degree angle. (Although in taking another look at
the photo and trying to match the perspective against a model,
the stick would probably be tilted at an even greater angle,
perhaps as much as 55 degrees. This would make the stick
significantly longer than what is calculated below.)

The stick forms the hypotenuse of a right triangle. Count the
stripes along the horizontal leg of the triangle. I count 27 to
28, or 2.75 feet. Using a 45 degree angle for the stick tilt,
the vertical leg of the stick is another 2.75 feet. Use a
little elementary trig and you get the stick being about 47
inches long. which I have rounded to 4 feet given the
uncertainties. (On the other hand, if the tilt were really 55
degrees, then the stick was 4.8 feet long, or 4'10".).

Four feet is perfectly consistent with the main cross-sticks of
the ML-307 radar reflector (the one's used on Mogul), which were
4 feet long. Since the A.F. was trying to demonstrate that the
sticks were consistent in length with this style radar
reflector, it is rather hard to understand why they would
deliberately alter the stick length, until you realize that 4
feet was inconsistent with all the testimony, but 3 feet wasn't.

I can't absolutely prove that they deliberately doctored the
photoanalysis, but it's also difficult to believe that CIA
photoanalysts could be so sloppy. Then there's that remarkable
"coincidence" of 3 feet exactly agreeing with the statements of
Brazel in his RDR interview on the length of his bundle of
sticks, and Robert Porter about the size of the largest package
he handled, and Marcel about what he found.

A 4-foot stick indicates substitution of debris in Fort Worth,
but 3-feet keeps things consistent with a Roswell recovery. I
think that was the reason for the change.

I hope a real photo expert like Bruce Maccabee will take another
look at this problem. In fact, if it can be shown that the
stick was substantially longer than 4 feet, it would rule out it
coming from a Mogul radar target and virtually prove that there
was a debris substitution in Fort Worth.

David Rudiak






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 22

                        Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:59:39 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:02:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al


>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:08:32 -0500 (CDT)
>Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:38:48 -0400
>Subject: Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al

>OK, here's some contrary evidence.

<snip>

>It's only one person's account and opinion,
>of course, but nonetheless directly relevant to the issue of the
>recovery of strange material and/or bodies at Roswell (or not).

In what follows, I don't see anything particularly relevant in
this person's account as to the recovery of strange material,
except for his opinion that it couldn't have been very important
because nobody of importance that _he was aware of_ was involved
in transport of the debris.  As it turns out, there is other
witness testimony that base commanders and deputy commanders
were indeed involved with transport of the material.

What it does directly address are Glenn Dennis' claims about
goings-on and autopsies at the base hospital and the mysterious
nurse. And that's about it.

>It's also relevant to the issue of how Roswell has been
>investigated and reported in the main.

That would, of course, include people like Dennis Stacy, who so
far hasn't done a very good job of relating anything relevant to
Roswell in an accurate or coherent manner.

>Those who haven't seen it, should find it interesting.

OK. Believe it or not, I actually haven't seen it. Thanks.

>In 1947, Lorenzo Kent Kimball was a captain stationed at the
>base hospital in Roswell. I've extracted this from his web page,
>'Roswell From a Personal Perspective', which can be found at:

>http://www.inconnect.com/~lorenzok/roswell.html

>In 1995, he was interviewed by a Japanese film crew about the
>alien autopsy. As you'll see below, Stan Friedman interviewed
>him as early as 1992. I've not had time to go back to check to
>see if he appears in any of Friedman's books about Roswell

Friedman has had two books on Roswell. "Crash at Corona" also
came out in 1992, so I rather doubt if Kimball (who indicates he
was first interviewed in the Fall 1992, i.e., late in the year)
could have been incorporated into the book. Sheesh!

"Top Secret/Majic" came out in 1996, but dealt almost entirely
with the issue of whether a secret Majestic 12-type group may
have existed. It has one brief mention of Glenn Dennis, dealing
with Dennis' alleged calls from the base and being told of
bodies retrieved from the desert. The book does not deal with
the nurse or autopsies at the base hospital.

>or in any of the Randle/Schmitt books

Published in1991 and 1994. Obviously he couldn't be in the 1991
book. And anything he told the Japanese film crew in 1995 or
what he learned from early 1994 onward (such as speaking to the
hospital head in 1995) couldn't make it into the 1994 book. It
is obvious from Kimball's comments, that he looked into Roswell
in more depth after first being approached by Friedman, and has
learned or surmised or formed opinions about various things
since then. In fact, if Dennis Stacy would actually bother to
read Kimball's article, Kimball states that his negative
opinions of some things in the Friedman and Randle/Schmitt books
were formed AFTER he read them in the books.

So without knowing exactly what he said in 1992, which may have
been little more than he didn't know Glenn Dennis or of any
unsual activity at the base hospital, its a little disingenuous
at this point to insinuate that Kimball's testimony has been
suppressed since then.

The principals, however, will have to speak for themselves of
exactly what they knew and when they knew it. I certainly don't
know, and neither, obviously, does Dennis Stacy.

> or articles (while Glenn Dennis
>was being highly touted as a reliable source). Perhaps they, or
>someone else, can tell us, as his absence would be curious,
>given all the attention showered on Dennis.

>Interestingly, I
>didn't find his name in the index to the McAndrew report,
>either, even though he would have highly bolstered the AF
>version of events. (Another reason for suspecting that McAndrew
>may have been more of a bureaucrat than a master cover up
>artist.)

So let's see. It's "curious" in Stacy's way of thinking that
Kimball isn't mentioned by Friedman or Randle in their books
published years ago, when this would require Kimball's current
opinions, some acquired after reading their books, to be
incorporated retroactively into those very books. The mind
spins! That's a real classic of Stacy illogic.

However, the fact that McAndrew also fails to use Kimball, only
as recently as one year ago, somehow exhonerates him of being an
Air Force propagandist. Whew!

Yes, we do indeed see from Stacy's verbal machinations how all
this is relevant to the issue of how Roswell has been
investigated and reported in the main, including by the former
editor of the MUFON Journal.

>[Kimball's remarks follow to the end. They have been shortened
>for space considerations.]

>ROSWELL FROM A PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE

>In 1947 I was a Captain, U.S. Army (Medical Administrative
>Corps) assigned to Squadron M (Base Hospital), 509th Bomb Group
>at Roswell Army Air Base. My primary duty was Medical Supply
>Officer for the Base Hospital. You would think that with all of
>the books that have been written, TV shows fictionalizing the
>incident, and the coverage the summer of 1997 in the media
>(major articles in the New York Times, cover stories in Time
>Magazine and Popular Science) that there must have been a great
>furor at the Base at that time (July 1947). To the contrary,
>life went on as usual. Most of the medical staff spent their
>time at the Officer's Club swimming pool every afternoon after
>duty hours. The biggest excitement was the cut-throat hearts
>game in the BOQ and an intense bingo, bango bungo golf game at
>the local nine hole golf course for a nickel a point!! There was
>absolutely NO unusual activity on the Base, no base alerts, no
>hysteria, no panic in July 1947. Life went on as usual.

Comment: So because this one person saw no unusual activity at
the base hospital _while he was on duty_, or when he was on the
golf course, or down at the base swimming hole or drinking hole,
we are supposed to conclude that nothing at all unusual could
have happened anywhere on the base at all hours of the day and
night. That makes zero sense. Kimball, e.g., would have had no
clearance to be down at the flight line or in the hangars, so
anything going on down there would have been strictly off-limits
to him. And he certainly would have been totally unaware of any
military activity off in the desert somewhere.

>In fact, the first I heard of this "cataclysmic event" was in
>the Fall of 1992 when I was called by Stanton Friedman to see if
>I could verify any of the activities that allegedly occurred at
>the Base Hospital concerning the recovery of alien remains.
>Friedman had found my name and picture in the 1947 RAAF
>Yearbook. My wife, Jane (who was with me in Roswell and who
>worked on the base), and I decided we had better try and find
>out what had supposedly happened. We did a library search and
>later obtained the Friedman/Berliner book and the Randle/Schmitt
>book cited above.

>What we have found is that much of what is in
>these books concerning the Base Hospital is incorrect and more
>fiction than fact.

So this directly addresses the question of whether Kimball's
current opinions would be in these books. Well, no, duhhh,
obviously not, if that wasn't obvious all along. He didn't form
these negative opinions about information in the books until
AFTER he had read the books. Dennis Stacy could have figured out
that much just by reading Kimball's article.

>In Crash at Corona, Glenn Dennis, a young mortician employed by
>the Ballard Funeral Home in Roswell, is reported as having
>brought an injured GI "to the base infirmary, which was in the
>same building as the hospital and mortuary." (p.116) Dennis is
>also quoted as saying he had received numerous calls from the
>Roswell AAF mortuary officer concerning sealed caskets . One of
>the photographs following p. 70 is captioned: "Rear of the
>hospital at Roswell Army Air Field. It was here that Glenn
>Dennis parked and walked in while small humanoid bodies were
>being prepared for shipment." Dennis, in his statements, tells
>of discussions with a young nurse, later identified as Naomi
>Maria Selff, who told him(Dennis) details about "three little
>bodies" being autopsied at the Base Hospital.

>FACTS:

>1. There was no mortuary on the Base. There was no AAF mortuary
>officer with such an assignment. As Medical Supply Officer I was
>responsible for obtaining, maintaining and issuing all supplies
>and equipment for the Base Hospital and any functions of a
>mortuary officer would have been within my responsibilities. I
>never met Glenn Dennis and I don't recall ever calling him for
>anything.

What I don't understand from this statement is how the base
dealt with any deaths at the base, which must have occurred now
and then. Where did they take the bodies; how did they prepare
them for burial or transport? The base hospital very likely
would have served as a makeshift "mortuary," since most
hospitals do have morgues.  All we may have here is a semantic
problem, where morgue would have been a more appropriate term
than mortuary.

A medical supply officer I can see being responsible for
obtaining caskets, but where would he get the caskets on short
notice? And would a medical supply officer be responsible for
embalming?

Karl Pflock when he was initially supporting Glenn Dennis'
story, noted that the position of base mortuary officer was
usually assigned to a junior officer who was neither a doctor or
mortician. If something came up, he would probably have to
consult with an expert. That would certainly seem to be the case
with Mr. Kimball, since he states he was just the medical supply
officer, not a mortician and not a person with medical training.

Kimball states he never spoke with Dennis, and I have no reason
to doubt this. But its also conceivable that another non-expert
like Kimball could have posed as the base mortuary officer and
called Dennis for advice.

Dennis' story of these phone calls was partly corroborated by
former Roswell police chief E.M. Hall who says Dennis discussed
the requests for such caskets for "bodies from a flying saucer"
several days after the newspaper stories about a crashed flying
saucer. So if Dennis made up this part of his story, he
apparently first did it a very long time ago.

(I also have this vague memory - somebody correct me quick if I
am wrong - that Rickett or maybe someone else stated that Cavitt
was the one that made the calls to the civilian mortician for
advice.)

>2. There was no nurse named Naomi Maria Selff assigned to the
>Base Hospital during the period I was assigned there
>(1946-1948). I was well acquainted with all five nurses assigned
>during this time and none of them anywhere near fit Dennis'
>description of the nurse he knew. Further research by UFO
>researcher Victor Golubic has determined that no nurse by that
>name was ever commissioned in the U.S. Army or assigned to the
>Army Air Force.

OK, I think it's now been well-established that there was no
"Naomi Selff." Perhaps Dennis' involvement was limited entirely
to phone calls from the base, which he apparently mentioned
clear back in 1947, but his nurse and her description of
autopsies was an elaborate embellishment he added 40 years
later. Dennis may still have been involved in some way. I don't
think that has been ruled out yet.

>3. The photograph cited above is of a two story brick structure.
>The entire hospital complex was a World War II cantonment type,
>one-story, wooden frame structure. There were NO two story
>buildings and NO brick structures in the complex.

I'm not sure this has anything to do with Glenn Dennis, unless
the incorrect description of the hospital complex came from him.
In this case, it would impeach his testimony of having been
there.

>In their book, The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell, Randle
>and Schmitt state that a Major Jesse B. Johnson, Squadron M,
>509th Bomb Group, (Base Hospital), was the base pathologist, who
>assisted in a preliminary autopsies on alien bodies. In their
>footnotes to Chapter 10, Randle & Schmitt claim that "Johnson's
>position as a pathologist has been verified by a number of
>former members of the 509th Bomb Group {and} verified by the
>509th yearbook and the RAAF unit history."

Well, once again, Stacy's question has been answered by Kendall
himself. He dismissed this account about Johnson doing any
autopsies AFTER reading about it in the second Randle/Schmitt
book. That could hardly have been incorporated into the book
retroactively, could it?

>FACTS:

>1. There was a physician named Jesse B. Johnson assigned to the
>Base Hospital. However, he was a 1st Lt., not a Major, and he
>was a radiologist, not a pathologist. He had no training as a
>pathologist and would have been the last member of the medical
>staff to have performed any autopsy on a human much less an
>alien!! He is identified as a 1st Lt in the 509th Yearbook.

>2. After I learned of these assertions, I called Doctor Jack
>Comstock, who, as a Major, was the Hospital Commander in 1947,
>and in 1995 was living in retirement in Boulder, Colorado. I
>asked him if he recalled any such events occurring in July of
>1947 and he said absolutely not. When I told him that Jesse B.
>was supposed to have conducted a preliminary autopsy on alien
>bodies, he had a hard time stopping laughing - his response was:
>PREPOSTEROUS!!

>3. Major Comstock lived in the Hospital BOQ, located in the
>hospital complex. Any unusual activity was immediately reported
>to him by members of the medical and nursing staff. He told me
>(this was in 1995 prior to his death in February 1996) that
>NOTHING of this nature occurred in July 1947 at the Base
>Hospital.

Obviously a second-hand account which also assumes Comstock
would talk about it with Kimball. That's not necessarily the
case if Comstock was adhering to a security oath.

Despite these obvious caveats, I see no reason at this point to
assume Kimball didn't talk with Comstock, or that he
misrepresented what Comstock told him, or that Comstock knew
anything and was concealing it from Kimball. I take these
statements at face value for the time being. Nothing unusual
happened at the base hospital in July 1947 that either of these
men was aware of.

>CONCLUSIONS AND OBSERVATIONS:

>From first-hand knowledge, I am reasonably certain that no
>alien bodies were brought to the Base Hospital in July 1947
>where "preliminary autopsies" were supposedly conducted. There
>was no nurse by the name of Naomi Maria Selff ever assigned to
>Squadron M, 509th Bomb Group. The statements made by Glenn
>Dennis are not credible. The accounts in the Randle/Schmitt book
>concerning Jesse B. Johnson are fiction.

>Note about Doctor Jack A. Comstock: Following graduation from

<snip Comstock military bio for brevity>

>My wife, Jane, and I knew Jack very well and considered him a
>good friend. He was one of the most honest and conscientious
>officers I knew during my 20 years of service. In all of our
>travels together and there were many, he never once mentioned
>any unusual "incident" as having occurred in Roswell in 1947. It
>is inconceivable that any alien bodies could have been brought
>to the Base Hospital at that time without his knowledge. It just
>did NOT happen.

This is an interesting perspective, but again does not
absolutely rule out that Comstock would simply not talk about it
with Kimball or anyone else, no matter how good friends they may
have been. However, I have no reason to doubt Kimball's opinion
on this at the moment.

>Major General William H. Blanchard, USAF (1916-1966)
<Snip rest of Blanchard's military bio for brevity>

>I served under General Blanchard's command with the 509th Bomb
>Group (1946-1948) and when he commanded the 7th Air Division in
>England (1957-1960). My assignment in the 7th Air Division was
>as Executive Officer to the Command Surgeon. I was promoted to
>the grade of Lt. Colonel during this assignment. As such I
>attended most 7th AD staff meetings and on a number of occasions
>I flew with General Blanchard on inspection trips of SAC units
>then based in various parts of England, Spain and North Africa.

>This summary of General Blanchard's career and my assignments
>under his command are noted here for the following reason:

>I got to know General Blanchard very well as an officer under
>his command at Roswell AAF and with the 7th Air Division. He
>was, as his record surely reflects, an outstanding officer, who
>was highly respected. According to Lt. Haut's testimony about
>the event, Colonel Blanchard ordered him to issue a press
>release announcing that a "flying disk" ha[d] been recovered.
>While I am sure this is how Lt. Haut remembers it, I would argue
>that this not the action that a responsible commander would have
>taken given the importance of such a discovery. He would have
>first reported the fact to his commander, General Ramey, at Hq,
>8th Air Force.

I think this is a relevant observation that based on Kimball's
sense of the man, Blanchard would not have operated outside of
the regular chain of command. In fact, for what they are worth,
there are newspapers accounts that Blanchard first contacted
Ramey of the find before shipping it to Fort Worth.

However, I don't see where Kimball is going with this. The
crashed disk press release was nonetheless issued with
Blanchard's authorization (there are also news accounts to this
effect). If Blanchard was acting within the chain of command
(based on this witnesses assessment of his character), then the
implication is that Blanchard himself was ordered from above to
issue the press release.  That has further profound implications
as to what was going on.

I think Kimball is trying to make the point that the press
release was issued only because Blanchard had already made a
determination and decided that what was found was not
significant. But this completely ignores statements made by
Blanchard to other witnesses, or the fact that the Pentagon and
Ramey were initially reported as saying the matter was highly
classified, or similar statements of very high level
classification from witnesses like Gen. Dubose. So this theory
just doesn't hold up. Obviously the matter was considered to be
one of great importance.

> Also, if Colonel Blanchard had believed that this
> "finding" was of such magnitude it is highly unlikely that he
> would have delegated the responsibility of transporting the
> debris to others. He would probably [have] done so himself.

Kimball is obviously not aware of the testimony of Sgt. Robert
Porter, who was on the B-29 with Marcel to Fort Worth. According
to Porter, the plane was piloted by the base Deputy Commander,
Lt. Col. Payne Jennings, who as it turns out assumed command of
the base that very day when Blanchard was reported to have gone
on leave.

So obviously Blanchard did believe that this "finding" was of
enormous importance, if that wasn't already obvious from
military statements right after the press release of high
classification.

The witness is also apparently not aware of Gen. Dubose's
testimony. Dubose was handling phone communications at Fort
Worth. He was notified from Roswell of the find, and relayed
this up the chain of command to Gen. Clarence McMullen in
Washington. McMullen order him to send samples to Washington by
"colonel courier." Dubose stated that Col. Alvin Clark, the
asst. base commander at Fort Worth AAF, acted as a courier to
Washington for this earlier debris shipment.

Again, according to this witness' own assessment, this would
indicate considerable importance being attached to the debris.

>And he surely would have avoided any publicity until he knew
>what he was dealing with.

Not if he was acting within the chain of command (which this
witness insists he would have been doing) and was ordered to do
this.

Ironically, though this witness doesn't seem to realize it, he
is actually lending support to the theory that the press release
being part of an elaborate counterintelligence sting. A vaguely
worded account of what happened is ordered put out from above,
it causes a media feeding frenzy, but then Gen. Ramey almost
immediately ridicules the whole thing as a weather balloon,
which killed the story for good. The following day, the UP in
their opening sentence of their Roswell story, reported that the
Army and Navy were engaged in a concentrated campaign to stop
all the flying saucer rumors. This was immediately followed by
military demonstrations of weather balloons and radar targets,
and given out as the undoubted explanation for all the flying
saucer reports. The Roswell crashed disk press release and
weather balloon debunking can then be viewed as the opening
volley in this military saucer debunking campaign.

>Those of us who served in the 509th Bomb Group at the time had
>considerable pride in our unit and respected our commanders. I
>believe we would have acted responsibly and promptly if there
>had been such a "cataclysmic event." The accusations that any of
>us have been involved in some sort of massive cover-up is
>ludicrous for one simple reason: Nothing occurred to cover up!

This witness was a junior medical officer at the time with no
general access to all parts of the base, and can only tell us
what he observed from a very limited perspective, much of it
seeming to be the base golf course and swimming pool.

Last year, the Safeway grocery only one block from where I live
was victim of an armed robbery by a gang of teenagers. Things
like that just don't happen routinely in the town where I live.
Yet I didn't learn of it until I read the story in the newspaper
two days later. A few years before this, the liquor store
across the street from the Safeway burned down in the middle of
the night. Being asleep, none of us was aware this happened
until late the next day . The point is that nobody can be in all
places at all times, and we can thus remain blissfully unaware
of highly unusual events happening practically on our doorstep.

I think this witness' testimony obviously impeaches Glenn
Dennis' story of the nurse or that there may have been autopsies
at the base hospital. However, it does not necessarily
discredit the part of Dennis' story of being contacted from the
base by somebody representing himself as the base mortuary
officer. That person didn't have to be the actual mortuary
officer.

It also has no relevance as to whether highly unusual debris or
even a craft may have been recovered and dealt with elsewhere on
the base. It also doesn't address other accounts where the
bodies were handled and boxed for transport in a hangar, rather
than at the base hospital.

We should also contrast Mr. Kimball's opinions with those of the
last known Roswell nurse, as interviewed in OMNI magazine in
1995. Like Kimball, she knew the other four nurses, but not
Glenn Dennis or anybody with the name of Selff. And like
Kimball, she had personally witnessed nothing suggesting a crash
or unusual goings-on at the base hospital.  So far so good.

However, she felt that a crash and body recovery was plausible,
based on her readings. "I know that something went on, and I
know it was very hush-hush. And I know I didn't know anything
about it at the time. It was closed up tight as a drum, you
know, by the base officials." She also said she heard nothing
directly from base personnel, but that was the norm at Roswell.
Everybody kept their mouths shut if they knew anything
sensitive.

So here's another witness in a comparable position to Kimball
who does not fully agree with his assessment. She had some
awareness of something unusual going on and of it being
suppressed, even if Kimball did not. Maybe she didn't spend as
much time as he did on the golf course and playing cards. And
she certainly didn't share Kimball's opinion that various base
personnel would never engage in a cover-up. If they knew
something important, they would not talk about it.

In the end, where does Kimball's story leave us? It provides us
with yet another perspective, however limited, of what may have
occurred or not occurred, particularly at the base hospital. On
many matters, however, it tells us nothing.  It is just one
more witness' story, much of it little more than conjecture.
There are other witnesses, some of much higher rank, who give us
a different perspective, often pointing to something extremely
signficant happening at the base in July 1947. Yet somehow
their stories aren't considered "evidence," whereas Kimball's
is. And so it goes.

David Rudiak.






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   Sep > Sep 22

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:48:12 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:20:22 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell
>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:11:14 -0300

>>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:45:20 -0500 (CDT)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
>>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell
>>>Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:28:07 -0300

<snip>

>>>I just wanted to point out that the odds of a mid air collision
>>>between 2 saucers were pretty good since according to Ted
>>>Bloecher's report 40% of the 850+ sightings he recorded for the
>>>wave of l947 involved more than one object seen at a time.

>>What the hell does "pretty good" mean? Most military operations
>>are conducted in tandem or formation. Does that make the odds of
>>a mid-air collision "pretty good"? No, it simply slightly
>>increases the already low odds of one aircraft malfunctioning
>>and colliding with another one. "Pretty good" is perfectly
>>meaningless. If the odds of a mid-air collision were really
>>"pretty good," then our own military probably wouldn't fly in
>>formation at all.

>>>Think of a pilot and a wingman. If they ran into a totally
>>>unexpected lightning bolt or a radar beam which we know was on
>>>because of an anticipated V-2 launch with data being required
>>>72,48,24,4 hours before launch, then the guidance or propulsion
>>>system of one or both might have been temprarily disrupted.

>>Hedging your bets, aren't you? If radar and lightning bolts were
>>so deadly to tandem-flying UFOs -- and remember the latter were
>>constructed of purportedly indestructible material -- why
>>weren't they falling out of the skies left and right during the
>>1947 wave? In other words, out of Ted Bloecher's 850 reports,
>>how many were of two or more UFOs crashing simultaneously to
>>earth? It wouldn't be one, would it? Does 850 divided by one
>>represent "pretty good" odds? Maybe Dave's splendid Roswell
>>paper backs you up on this logical fallacy, too? Or maybe Dave
>>begs to disagree? Who knows?

>>>I am personally convinced that were indeed 2 sets of bodies, one
>>>in the Plains, and one set a few miles from the Brazel debris
>>>field.

>>Which is partly the problem, but let me see if I've got this
>>straight: One UFO crashed on the Foster ranch in two parts, one
>>part of which had no bodies, the other part of which had all the
>>bodies. And a second UFO in one part crashed with bodies on the
>>Plains. Am I correct in assuming this means you don't accept
>>Kaufmann et al's account of yet another crash site, with bodies,
>>nearer to Roswell? I keep telling everyone I'm confused about
>>Roswell, but Splendid Dave just makes fun of me. I keep waiting
>>for him to straighten us out all on the competing claims about
>>Roswell, but he just accuses me of debunker double standards and
>>changing the subject, and then ignores my entreaty. Once again,
>>since you think Dave's paper is so splendid, I'd like to know
>>how splendid he thinks yours is. He could begin by telling us
>>his objective assessment of how many UFOs crashed, when and
>>where, and which ones involved body recoveries.

<snip>

>Anybody know whether mid-air collisions are more or less likely
>to involve planes flying more or less together. or simply flying
>into another plane at random? The point is that many sightings
>involve 2 or more UFOs. If none did, then the idea of a
>collision would seem far less likely.


And what about the revelation in the October edition of the UK
magazine 'Focus' that some sort of glider with attached balloon
was being tested at the time?

How many crash sites now? Eight?

Of course if it isn't aliens nobody takes any notice - an
indictment of Ufology if ever there was one.....





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   Sep > Sep 22

                        Re: HOT GOSSIP UK - SEPT '98

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:44:30 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:39:40 -0400
Subject: Re: HOT GOSSIP UK - SEPT '98


THE UNCONVENTION GOES HIGH TECH
UFOLOGISTS MAKE THE BROADSHEETS & GLOSSIES
NORTHERN UFO NEWSLETTER TO GO ON-LINE
NEW PUBLICATIONS
***********************************************************
THE UNCONVENTION GOES HIGH TECH

Many of you will know of the annual 'Unconvention' conference
which is held in London, UK. Organised by the well known
'Fortean Times' magazine, this is always one of the highlights
of the year. One of the organisers, and Editor of the Fortean
Times, Bob Rickard, is considering running live on-line
conferences throughout the weekend. Bob hopes that by then many
of the guests will turn up with their lap top computers and talk
to well known ufologists worldwide.

What a good idea!

Meanwhile the organisers are interested in talking to
individuals or groups who are experienced in doing on-line
conferences. So if you think you can advise or are interested in
getting involved, please contact Bob Rickard by
e-mail. Rickard@forteantimes.com
___________________________________________________________

UFOLOGISTS MAKE THE BROADSHEETS & GLOSSIES

There was a time when the only mention of a ufologist was in the
tabloid press. It seems all that is changing now, and the Times
newspaper has certainly taken an interest in the last 12 months.
This August, at least two prominent ufologists had been
interviewed for the up-market media. The Times of London
interviewed both Graham Birdsall [Editor of UFO Magazine] and
Nick Pope [author and researcher] for an article on 15/8/98
titled 'Reports of UFOs Vanish mysteriously into Space'. The
journalist, James Landale was in fact a political reporter.

The article questioned whether there had been a decline in UFO
sightings in the UK. According to a spokesman for the Ministry
of Defence, there were 609 UFOs reported in 1996, in 1997 it
dropped to 425, and in the first six months of 1998 there have
been only 88 reports. The spokesman suggests that Hollywood is
to blame; in other words the latest science fiction movies
prompted people to report UFO sightings. He also adds that the
50th anniversary and the Hale Bopp comet contributed to last
years reports. Pope disagreed, saying "The idea of a link is
an attempt to trivialise the UFO project". Birdsall came up with
a very profound statement, saying official reports had declined
because last year the MOD decided to stop taking personal calls
and instead had installed an answering service which put people
off making a report.

Like all broadsheet journalists, Landale couldn=92t resist
bringing in the much used 'little green men from outer space'
line. Isn=92t it about time someone told them that these little
guys aren=92t necessarily green, and that they don=92t necessarily
come from outer space. It appears that Landale had picked up
the story from the parliamentary written questions and answers
given to Lord Hill Norton. Hill Norton is a strong supporter of
Ufology and often asks questions in the House of Lords referring
to the latter. For the article,Hill Norton commented that he did
not think the number of sightings had dropped.

Fashion conscious ufologists will be delighted to know that Nick
Pope is mentioned in the latest issue of 'Harpers & Queen', the
upmarket glossy magazine. By the way, Pope will be visiting New
York sometime in September.

___________________________________________________________

NORTHERN UFO NEWS TO GO ON-LINE

Well known ufologist Jenny Randles is aiming to go on-line soon
with her monthly publication 'Northern UFO News'. The newsletter
is full of gossip and news about local UFO cases and Ufologists,
and is available in hard copy for a subscription rate of =A36.00
for six issues.

Meanwhile, the newsletter is obtainable from: 1, Halsteads
Close, Dove Holes, Buxton, High Peak, Derbyshire SK17 8BS. Make
cheques payable to 'NUFON'.

You may as well subscribe because it may be a while before the
actual site goes up.

___________________________________________________________
NEW PUBLICATIONS

New books coming out which can be safely ordered from Amazon on-line at:
Amazon.com Books http://www.amazon.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------
"The Alien Intent; A Dire Warning: The Truth Behind the Cover Up?"
Raymond A. Robinson
Publisher: Blandford
Paperback
Expected publication date: September 1998
ISBN: 0713727322
URL: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=3D0713727322/e
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Arrival of the Gods : Revealing the Alien Landing Sites at Nazca"
Ericch Von Daniken, Erich Von Daniken
Hardcover
Expected publication date: September 1998
ISBN: 1862043531
URL: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=3D1862043531/e
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Electric UFOs; Fireballs, Electromagnetics and Abnormal States"
Albert Budden
Publisher: Blandford
Paperback
Expected publication date: September 1998
ISBN: 0713726857
URL: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=3D0713726857/e
---------------------------------------------------------------
That's all for this month

Georgina Bruni
Editor in Chief
London
September 1st 1998

__________________________________________________________

Permission to distribute this information is granted
providing the authors and Hot Gossip UK are credited.
Photographs are copyright, and cannot be published without
permission. Hot Gossip UK - www.hotgossip.co.uk

*********************************************************







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   Sep > Sep 22

                  -[For The Record]- P-1947: Beaver County,

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 01:48:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:51:14 -0400
Subject: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Beaver County,


>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:31:13 EDT
>From: HerbUFO@AOL.COM
>Subject: Beaver County, Pennsylvania photos
>To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

>To Mark and the list:

>My congratulations to Mark for doing a fine job in bringing
>resolution to the Beaver County, Pennsylvania photo case of
>August 8, 1965.  Yet another example of ufology screwing up!
>This rather simple hoax by some teenagers completely fooled both
>news people and NICAP investigators.  It took an admission by the
>perpetrators some thirty-three years later to clear the matter
>up.  Scratch another supposedly legitimate case from the UFO
>database.  I suspect more will follow.

>Regards, Herb Taylor

Herb -

Thanks for your kind words. However, I don't think this should be
overstated. The case was carried as a hoax by Condon, and I
believe also by the AF. I suspect it hasn't received much
scrutiny since that time. The photo itself is very unusual
looking and does not on the surface suggest how it might be
hoaxed. In any event, I am pleased to have an admission in the
case, since the suspicion raised by a photo analysis is just that
- suspicion, not proof.

Once again, I'd point out that if the effort spent on cases like
Roswell, which are unlikely to ever produce resolution, were used
on famous and non-famous historical cases, we could get more
hoaxes and misperceptions out of the database - and, of course,
confirm the true strangeness of cases many of the newest
generation of investigators and analysts have forgotten.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------







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   Sep > Sep 22

                  Roswell AFB 'Smoking Gun' Telegram Read?

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:44:45 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:05:18 -0400
Subject: Roswell AFB 'Smoking Gun' Telegram Read?


I read with interest the dialogue between Dennis Stacy and
David Rudiak re: recent studies of the Roswell debris that I
photographed in General Ramey's office on July 8, 1947.

I am amazed that the US govt. spent so much time measuring the
sticks and so little time studying the fascinating symbols and
other anomalous objects contained in the photos.

I am curious as to when and where the document held by General
Ramey was determined to be an "FBI telegram"?

Apparently this was just some more of the Roswell folklore.

The Ramey Message is _not_ from the FBI!

Much of this message now has been "read" by the RPIT (Roswell
Photo Interpretation Team) and this will be revealed tomorrow
night, Wednesday, September 23, when Ron Regehr, Associate
Director, MUFON Orange County (CA) and a well-known
space/satellite engineer, makes the initial report of RPIT at a
major presentation to MUFON.

This is being billed in advance notices as a "smoking gun"
revelation re the Roswell Event. Keep tuned!

James Bond Johnson







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   Sep > Sep 22

                     BBC TV Interested In UK Skywatchers

From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:23:18 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:58:53 -0400
Subject: BBC TV Interested In UK Skywatchers

Dear colleagues,

Yesterday I received a phone call from Jeffrey Morris at BBC TV
in London. Jeffrey is working on the BBC's Millenium Events and
he is looking for UFO groups that are seruiously involved in
skywatching as part of their activities. This would of course
have to be in the UK.

Jeffrey was keen to speak to such groups who operate in Wales,
N.Ireland, Scotland as well as just England.

If you can help the BBC with this then you should contact
Jeffrey Morris at: tele: 0181 576 7679. Fax: 0181 576 7055.
E-mail: jeffrey.morris@bbc.co.uk

Please mention my name should you contact him and best of luck.

Philip Mantle.

PS.

Please feel free to forward this onto other interested parties.








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   Sep > Sep 22

                           Re: A Research Question

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:33:22 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:03:22 -0400
Subject: Re: A Research Question


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 20:08:16 -0400
>Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:44:12 -0400
>Subject: Re:  A Research Question

>>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: A Research Question
>>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:14:59 -0400

>>Hello List->

>>I wonder if anyone might help me out with a bit of information
>>for a UFO piece I am working on. Does anyone know from how many
>>miles away you can (easily, with the naked eye) see the glow of
>>Las Vegas on the horizon?

<snip>

>>I would actually like to know the maximum distance that the Las
>>Vegas glow can be seen, which I suppose would be on the
>>clearest of nights.

>Since this is supposedly a naked eye observation during clear
>sky conditions I'll hazard a guess that 50 miles would be an
>upper limit.

>However, this is based on "easy" to see as oppesed to a barely
>visible glow. That is, sensitive, dark adapted eyes might detect
>a glow farther away.

>On the other hand, it might be that 50 miles is an upper bound
>for easy detection and 25 miles could be a better estimate. But
>I do think it would be visible 25 miles away as a glow on the
>horizon.

>Of course, I could be wrong!  Such a thing would, in principle,
>be possible to calculate.... but much easier to "measure."

Hello, Bruce Maccabbee, Scott Carr and List:

A formula used by astronomers to estimate urban sky glow is
called "Walkers Law". It can be used to estimate the sky glow at
an observing site, looking at an angle 45 degrees from overhead,
toward an urban source d kilometers away.

The formula is

I = 0.01Pd(superscript-2.5)

where I is the increase in sky glow level above the natural
background and P is the population of the city and d is the
distance to the center of the city in km.

More information can be found at the following site of the
International Dark Sky Association, which fights "light
pollution":   http://www.darksky.org/ida/ida_2/info11.html

Using an estimate of 365,000 as the population of Las Vegas,
(this 1995 figure must now be higher), and the fact that the
above formula gives underestimates for very large urban areas,
and that the intense outdoor illumination used at Las Vegas is
certainly atypical, one can come up with a _minimum_ figure of
50 miles as the distance at which the city's lights would be
visible as a glow 10% above the natural sky brightness level.
The greatest distance at which a glow from Vegas can be detected
is very likely much higher.

May you have clear, dark skies,

Bob Young






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   Sep > Sep 22

                Re: Roswell AFB 'Smoking Gun' Telegram Read?

From: Donald Waldrop <DONZON@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:15:03 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:08:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell AFB 'Smoking Gun' Telegram Read?


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:44:45 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>I read with interest the dialogue between Dennis Stacy and
>David Rudiak re: recent studies of the Roswell debris that I
>photographed in General Ramey's office on July 8, 1947.

>I am amazed that the US govt. spent so much time measuring the
>sticks and so little time studying the fascinating symbols and
>other anomalous objects contained in the photos.

>I am curious as to when and where the document held by General
>Ramey was determined to be an "FBI telegram"?

>Apparently this was just some more of the Roswell folklore.

>The Ramey Message is _not_ from the FBI!

>Much of this message now has been "read" by the RPIT (Roswell
>Photo Interpretation Team) and this will be revealed tomorrow
>night, Wednesday, September 23, when Ron Regehr, Associate
>Director, MUFON Orange County (CA) and a well-known
>space/satellite engineer, makes the initial report of RPIT at a
>major presentation to MUFON.

>This is being billed in advance notices as a "smoking gun"
>revelation re the Roswell Event. Keep tuned!

>James Bond Johnson


Hi Bond

Thanks for keeping me up to date on all the developments. I hope
to be at the MUFON OC meeting tomorrow night. Maybe we will get a
chance to meet and talk.

All the best,
Don

Donald Waldrop
Director, MUFON LA
Mutual UFO Network Los Angeles
http://www.MUFONLA.com
(toll free) 877-MUFONLA






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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Karl T. Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:17:46 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:40:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:26:18 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Ros

Greetings Bruce and List,

>And, speaking of Cavitt's testimony, you will recall that he
>made the claim that at a cookout some time after the event Jesse
>Marcel brought out a piece of the material.

Small correction:  It was Cavitt's wife, Mary, who recalled this,
not Cavitt.

In fact, in a personal meeting with both of them in 1995, 'Cav'
allowed as how Mary could very well be correct, but he just
didn't remember the incident. Mary was quite certain about it,
but vague on the details.  The Cavitts and Marcels were good
friends and 'card buddies'.

-- Ad astra per ufologia (maybe),
KARL






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   Sep > Sep 22

              Re: Strange Object Over Schalksrust, South Africa

From: Maurice Kellett <SETI54@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:13:51 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:48:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Object Over Schalksrust, South Africa


>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:23:23 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Strange Object Over Schalksrust, South Africa

><snip>

>Maurice,

>A very sober and pleasant letter. I am of a similar mind. I
>sometimes feel like a child when gazing at the stars.

>I am reminded of my smallness in the grand scheme of things. I
>realize how little I really know, no matter how much I THINK I
>know. I have no ego whispering to me about my mental or
>evolutionary superiority. I have no corporate funding to worry
>about. I have published no papers about the impossibility of
>alien life visiting the earth. I have no barriers to prevent me
>from embracing the possibility. I refuse to close my eyes because
>others around me do. And I can think of no good reason why I
>should. There is happiness in the contemplation that occasionally
>we aren't alone on this rock, and sadness in the insistance that
>we are.

>Greg


Thanks Greg for the reply which was equally sobering.

The memory of that incident with Duke (now dead 12 years) will
never be forgotten. It was real and what on earth it was I will
in all probability never know.

My main concern now is how to survive an onslaught from
Freemasons following my attempts over these past 12 years to try
to expose them for what they really are.

Following threats that our home would be burnt down unless I
backed away from Freemasonry my wife left and my thirty year
marriage has now broken up.

I have been publishing stuff on the internet to try to highlight
what they have done to me in the name of alleged justice.

I am now facing direct confrontation with the British Judiciary
following four years of civil litigation and I have shown that
it is controlled by Freemasonry.

The British Police are also heavily infected by Freemasonry and
although I may never win Greg, I realise that life is not such a
good thing when those who want to make it hell are allowed by
the "system" to make it that way.

Bye and God Bless you Greg

Maurice.






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   Sep > Sep 22

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Keith Stevens <keith. stevens@virgin. net>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:04:25 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:32:44 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:45:20 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve. net>
>From: Dennis <dstacy@texas. net>
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

<snip>

>Apparently, you interviewed Lorenzo Kimball as
>early as 1992, yet I don't recall seeing his name ever mentioned
>in any of your writings about Roswell. I trust you weren't
>trying to avoid a mid-air collision?

>In fact, I don't recall Kimball being interviewed and/or quoted
>by Randle and Schmitt, either, although I'm sure that
>considerable effort was expended by everyone in an attempt to
>confirm or disconfirm Glenn Dennis's highly dubious account
>(which even Randle now disavows). Wasn't it?

Hi Dennis

Just thought that I would throw a few points into the 'melting
pot' here with regard to Lorenzo Kimball and his relationship
with Jack Comstock.

But first let me digress a few moments. I am led to believe that
the US Military use a similar form of vetting procedure to the
British. Here (GB) we use a system of negative and positive
vetting. For those who do not know negative vetting consists of
a 'light' check of a candidates background while positive
vetting involves a thorough background check. Positive vetting
is both costly and time consuming.

I also believe that all Officers of both nations are positive
vetted on enlistment. Positive vetting clearance is required to
handle any Top Secret material. Positive vetting is on going,
the candidate faces continual checks on his status through out
his/her service. It is _not_ a life time award. It can be
annulled for any breach of security by the individual, with I
might add, a very detrimental effect on that individuals career.
Vetting is not a new thing it has been in place for many
years.

Further, the right to work with Top Secret material does _not_
give the individual _any_ right to view, hold, discuss or work
with _any_ classified material in which he/she is not directly
involved. It is an Offence against the State to actually do so.
A fact that is all too often forgotten by the Book writer and
non Military man.

What has this to do with Kimball you ask?According to Kimball he
knew Jack Comstock very well and even considered him to be a
close personal friend. He rightly points out Comstock's
excellent record and goes so far as to describe him as <'one of
the most honest and conscientious officers I knew in my 20 years
of service'. >With this in mind and coupled with Kimballs
position as a Supply Officer I put it to you that Comstock would
never have told him if, as has been suggested, Comstock knew
that something extraordinary had occurred. Put very simply
Kimball did not need to know.

The same could be said for Kimball's relationship with
Blanchard. Blanchard was a dedicated 'Career Officer'. Indeed he
had a short but glittering career. He would hardly of
jeopardized that career by 'shouting his mouth off 'to anyone
let alone to Kimball.

It must be remembered that if something of the magnitude that
some believe occurred at Roswell really happened it would be a
matter of absolute National Security. I doubt it could be
eclipsed. It would not be something that Comstock would sit
around the Bar-B-Que and say 'Did I ever tell you about
Roswell. . . . . . ' He appears very unlikly to be that sort of
man. You must also appreciate that although Officers socialize
with their fellow Officers they simply would not and do not
discuss matters of National Security so lightly.

No, while I credit Kimball for giving a glowing account of the
careers of both Comstock and Blanchard he certainly does not
convince me that, perhaps, they did not hold a secret from
him. You must remember just what Kimble actually was. As the Unit
Supply Officer he would hardly be the first individual that the
Unit OC would call for. A Captain might think he is an important
person but he is in fact a very small cog in a very big machine.

Of course you must consider the possibility that nothing truly
occurred. Yet you must also consider, however unlikely you may
feel it, that either he was not told, or, that he is being
possibly deliberately misleading.

Doubtless you will respond. Please, a non' Letterman' critique.
(I love America I am actually going to Florida this Saturday),
but, I could never really understand Letterman's humor. We may
actually be very nearly your, is it 53rd State?, but we do not
have to put up with him over here. . . . . . yet. <BG>

Regards.

Keith. . . . . . . . . Keep the Faith!






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   Sep > Sep 22

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:44:08 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:11:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:48:21 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

<snip>

>This is in Attachment 33 to the 1995 A.F. Report, entitled
>"Mensuration Working Paper, with Photo and Drawing, February 15,
>1994." They analyzed stick length in one of the photos of Ramey
>and Dubose (Dubose sitting, holding a piece of foil, looking
>right; Ramey squatting down, looking left, and holding your "FBI
>telegram" in his hand).

>Various sticks in the photo were given letter labels and their
>lengths calculated. One stick in the lower right of the photo
>labeled "C" is clearly longer than any of the others. Then they
>made up a schematic working diagram of the various sticks. On
>the schematic (not the photo), stick "C" has clearly been
>cropped (compare to photo). It's then listed in a table in
>their "mensuration working papers" as being only 35.4 inches
>long, or 3 feet.

David:

Thanks for the elaboration. I was originally under the
impression that you were accusing McAndrew of mischievously
cropping the picture _before_ sending it out for analysis.

I'm looking at what you're looking at, but don't see the same
thing, although I'm willing to stand corrected. Here, then, for
what it's worth, is how I see it.

First, I'm assuming that the supposed "cropped" section of stick
C extends toward the viewer at the bottom of the picture. If
you'll look just below the C-block pasted on the picture, it
appears to me that stick C ends at this point, underneath what
appears to be a small piece of overlapping paper. What you take
as a continuation of stick C appears to me to be an empty
channel or sleeve in which such sticks were originally
positioned.

Now, look at the map view of the various sticks and you'll
notice this. Whenever the end of a stick is plainly visible, the
schematic indicates same. Notice how the far end of stick C is
boxed off, ditto the far end of stick G, and the near (left) end
of stick E. Notice that the right end of stick E and the left
end of stick G are left _open_ to indicate an indistinct ending
according to the picture. Similary, the near (bottom) end of
stick C is left open to indicate that it can't be determined --
from the picture -- exactly where under the overlapping flap of
paper stick C precisely ends.

The Mensuation Working Paper, if I read it rightly, says the
accuracy is within 10%. Presumably, one could add another 3.54
inches to the already existing 35.4 inches of stick C and come
up with a length of 38.94 inches.

Anyway, that's my take on your "cropped" C stick, which you
believe
indicates manipulated data. Anyone else have an opinion?

>I hope a real photo expert like Bruce Maccabee will take another
>look at this problem. In fact, if it can be shown that the
>stick was substantially longer than 4 feet, it would rule out it
>coming from a Mogul radar target and virtually prove that there
>was a debris substitution in Fort Worth.

>David Rudiak

Maybe I'm wrong, and someone can prove me so. But in the
meantime, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill
here.

Dennis







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   Sep > Sep 22

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:40:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:08:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:54:31 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:26:18 -0400
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>Sender: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>

<snip>

>>I suppose he would feel duty bound to hand over to "the
>>authorities" all rubber, balsa woods, strings, foil, etc. and
>>keep none of it as a souvenir of the most publicized event in
.>his life.

>>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>Bruce,

>Does all this hilarious laughter mean you believe in the Kaufmann
>Fairy, too?

Irrelevant to Cavitt.

>Does it also mean that you believe that the Roswell Fire
>Department was present at the retrieval of bodies, even though
>Randle, who admits he has a copy of the FD's records for 1947,
>also admits that the records don't show any out of city activity
f>or the dates in dispute? >

Irrelevant to Cavitt.

>Does it also mean that you still accept the questionable
>testimony of Glenn Dennis and Jim Ragsdale, two other Roswell
>knee-slappers, along with the high hilarity of Gerald Anderson,
>the Anaya brothers, and camp cook Melvin Brown?

Irrelevant to Cavitt.

>Off-hand, I'd say you've got plenty to laugh about.

Relevant to Cavitt.

HAHAHAHAHA

>Dennis

My Dear Dennis,

Don't you see some humor in all this wrangling over who said
what to whom, who did what to whom, who was where when,
etc......... and each side being absolutely or confidently or
somewhat confident of what someone, living or dead, said about
the events,,.... Yet none of the living witnesses and
certainly none of the "arguers" was THERE (at the Foster Ranch)
at the TIME...... EXCEPTTTTTTT (Ta Da) Sheridan "Cav" Cavitt.


And what does Cavitt say? (Paraphrasing)

"I never met the Rancher"

(but Sheridan, he was the only guy who knew where the
"trash"...whatever it was.... was. Perhaps we need to
understand what the meaning of "was" was......or "was" is.
Mr. President,. where are you when we need you? Never
mind, I can guess.))

"I immediately recognized it as a weather balloon" (Fine. Did
you keep this a secret, or did you pick some up, laugh, and say
to the other guys, "HAHAHAHAHA, its just a dumb weather
balloon." Or did you at least say, "Gee, sure looks like a
weather balloon to me." If not, what kept you from doing that?)

"There wasn't much material. It all fit into a car." (then the
story about Brazel storing a disc in his garage wasn't true; the
reports of using several vehicles to pick up the material was
wrong..... and so on).

Any educated "Roswellologist" can find numerous differences
between statements in Cavitt's testimony and statements by the
other people who we know were involved.


Now, let's assume that Cavitt did not bother to tell Marcel and
the others that it was only a weather balloon. Assume he did not
tell them because either there was something about it which made
him unsure, or he assumed they, too, thought it a balloon. If
the reason is the latter, then one would imagine that at least
by the afternoon of the day after the retrieval, when the
newspaper story hit the wires and the press was starting to
explode, he would have realized that the other people had failed
to recognize it. One would imagine he would immediately call the
base commander or someone and say, "Hey, look, you guys got this
all wrong".

But there is no evidence that he took any part in the activities
after the retrieval itself. He could have saved the base
"embarrassment", but instead let Blanchard make a fool of
himself by ordering a flying saucer press release.

Yes, if Cavitt had only spoken up when he had the chance,
when it really counted, 50 1/3 years ago out on the desert
70 miles (or so) from Roswell, we wouldn't be here now.....

or would we.....

If you can't trust Cav, who can you trust?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA







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   Sep > Sep 22

                        Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:09:52 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:12:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:59:39 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al

David:

In an earlier post, you suggested that we go back to sharing
information and discussing evidence. Accordingly, I started a
new thread, "Evidence for Rudiak Et Al," to do just that.

I'm appreciative of your comments about, and interpretation of,
Kimball's own comments. I'm less happy to see you attacking me
personally again, when it was you who made the call to move on
beyond personalities.

Here's is but one example of your technique. You take a sentence
of mine which includes the phrase "books or articles," and break
it after the word "books." You then go on to mention only four
books (and no articles). You make me say something I didn't say,
or even imply, then make me look like a fool for having "said"
what you think I said.

Either you cannot comprehend a simple point, or you persist in
refusing to understand it, the better to chalk up another
"score" for yourself.

Almost anyone -- but you, apparently -- would have understood my
overall point. Since you didn't, let me spell it out in as plain
English as I can.

Obviously, no one would expect Kimball's testimony to be
published in a book prior to him having been interviewed. As
you're so fond of saying, Sheesh!

The point was: WHERE WAS KIMBALL'S TESTIMONY IN THE UFO
LITERATURE (the proverbial books and articles) UNTIL NOW? My
apologies to everyone else for having to shout (and in case I
didn't make myself absolutely clear earlier).

Kimball wasn't hiding from anyone. His picture was in the
yearbook. Friedman found him as early as 1992 (and has followed
up at least once), the Japanese found him in 1995.

In the now six years since 1992, Friedman has issued numerous
articles about Roswell and lectured about the case dozens, if
not hundreds of times, with no mention of Kimball. Randle has
written numerous articles and book chapters about Roswell in the
same time frame, lectured at least dozens of times on the same
subject, again with no mention of Kimball. Curiously, in their
efforts to corroborate Glenn Dennis's story, Randle and Schmitt
never get around to Kimball. Instead, they find a Jesse Johnson,
misidentify him as a pathologist and a major (even though his
picture, with the right rank, was in the yearbook), and have him
participating in an on-base autopsy.

Again, Kimball's testimony speaks directly to how Roswell has
been investigated and reported. That's all I said about it.
Everyone is free to weigh it, or dismiss it in that context, and
draw their own conclusions.

>OK. Believe it or not, I actually haven't seen it. Thanks.

You're welcome.

>So without knowing exactly what he said in 1992, which may have
>been little more than he didn't know Glenn Dennis or of any
>unsual activity at the base hospital, its a little disingenuous
>at this point to insinuate that Kimball's testimony has been
>suppressed since then.

No one said it had been "supressed." I just aksed where it was.
How can Randle and Schmitt suppress it when, apparently, they
haven't even _found_ it? The only one being disingenuous (can we
retire that word now?) here, David, is you.

>The principals, however, will have to speak for themselves of
>exactly what they knew and when they knew it. I certainly don't
>know, and neither, obviously, does Dennis Stacy.

All I know is that he is conspicuous by his previous absence. In
any thorough investigation to corroborate and document
allegations of alien bodies on base, he should have been located
AND HIS TESTIMONY REORTED, whether pro or con, long ago. And
yes, that goes for the AF, too. But here they had the perfect
propagandist (your words) in their grasp -- and they didn't even
use him. Well, we always knew those AF guys were dumb!

>So let's see. It's "curious" in Stacy's way of thinking that
>Kimball isn't mentioned by Friedman or Randle in their books
>published years ago, when this would require Kimball's current
>opinions, some acquired after reading their books, to be
>incorporated retroactively into those very books. The mind
>spins! That's a real classic of Stacy illogic.

No, but it is a real classic case of you again interpreting what
I did say in such a way as to make you look good and me bad.
It's you who limited it to four books, and four books alone, not
me. It's you who broke the phrase after "books," and then
neglected to mention any articles. It's you who concentrates on
minutiae so as to obscure any larger sense or meaning of what
was intended.

Was I supposed to cite every article and lecture Friedman and
Randle et al have written or given in the last six years? He
isn't in other Roswell books written since 1992 by various other
authors, either, that I'm aware of. Should I have attached a
complete Roswell bibliography? Randle, Schmitt, and Friedman
were referenced in particular because they are generally
regarded as the primary Roswell researchers. When most people
think of Roswell, they think of the Roswell portrayed in their
collective works.

So stop deliberately obscuring the obvious (to everyone but
you). Randle and Friedman et al have written and talked a ton
about Roswell since 1992, and, as best I'm aware, not a word has
been spoken or written about Kimball in those six years.

Now, these are the last remarks I intend to address to your
motives or intelligence, personally. If you can do the same, we
can go back to discussing the shared information, as you
requested earlier.

<snip>

>In the end, where does Kimball's story leave us? It provides us
>with yet another perspective, however limited, of what may have
>occurred or not occurred, particularly at the base hospital. On
>many matters, however, it tells us nothing. It is just one
>more witness' story, much of it little more than conjecture.
>There are other witnesses, some of much higher rank, who give us
>a different perspective, often pointing to something extremely
>signficant happening at the base in July 1947. Yet somehow
>their stories aren't considered "evidence," whereas Kimball's
>is. And so it goes.

>David Rudiak.


Here's how it goes, David. Everything can't be discussed at once
-- except by you. Kimball's evidence was posted because it was
NEW -- even to you. IT'S INFORMATION THAT I SHARED! Don't you
get it, or do you just persist in playing dense when it suits
you?

No one said that his particular testimony was supposed to
outweigh or supercede that of everyone else, or write case
closed on Roswell as a whole. That's just you scoring points
again.

I mentioned a few areas where I thought Kimball's testimony was
relevant, and then let the man speak for himself.

It's another Roswell fish. You throw it in the barrel, and
ultimately you weigh it accordingly, just like all the other
fish. It's an ongoing process.

We now have your thoughts on Kimball. Thanks. That's one of the
reasons why
it was posted. Now try to keep the personal stuff to your self.

Dennis







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   Sep > Sep 22

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:55:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:46:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:28:57 -0500 (CDT)
> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
> Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>The pity is that this
>issue could, theoretically, be resolved by submitting the
>original documents and ufologists' arguments against the literal
>interpretation of same to an individual military historian (or
>panel) conversant with procedure, and letting him, her or them
>issue an informed opinion. Highly unlikely it will ever happen,
>but there's the suggestion, nonetheless.

Dennis, I agree, and have been thinking the same thing throughout
this debate. We need an informed military historian to comment
not just on the various Twining and McCoy memos (the ones that
don't mention any recovered UFOs), but on why the Roswell press
release might have been issued. I'm tired of seeing speculation
when what we need are some professional opinion.

(That said, I'm not remotely convinced by Printy, who despite his
status as a Chief Petty Officer in the Navy has no more
competence than the rest of us to decide these issues. He thinks
Twining -- if an alien craft had really crashed -- wouldn't have
said there was no recovered debris because making a false
statement to his superiors would have been a violation of
military law. Right -- and no military people ever lied during
the Vietnam war, and the USA is a land of equal justice for all,
where rich and poor get exactly the same defence when they're
arrested and put on trial. Please. This is a complicated issue,
but we're not going to resolve it with naive piety.)

Greg Sandow







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   Sep > Sep 23

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:12:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:18:17 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:48:12 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:20:22 -0400
Subject:

>And what about the revelation in the October edition of the UK
>magazine 'Focus' that some sort of glider with attached balloon
>was being tested at the time?

>How many crash sites now? Eight?

>Of course if it isn't aliens nobody takes any notice - an
>indictment of Ufology if ever there was one.....

You folks in the UK seem to be lagging badly behind the US when
it comes to learning about screwball theories. Your glider with
with attached balloon was some theory first assembled by the
science editor of Popular Mechanics magazine in July 1997 for
the 50th Roswell anniversary. Of course, no evidence was
presented that there ever was such a thing, but it made for fine
bathroom reading.

Yes folks. It was an experimental Japanese Fugo-type spy balloon
with a Horten glider suspended underneath and manned by a
Japanese crew (the Japanese were very clever at miniaturizing
_everything_, even back then). The Japanese crew explained the
small bodies with the Oriental features.

Well, that covered most of the bases, no matter how preposterous
it was. Now our friend Tim Matthews is swallowing it whole
because it fits in his tight little box that all unexplained
UFOs are really secret military projects.

Between Tim Matthews and Presidential sex scandals, we have more
comic material than we can handle. Please stop! We surrender!
You can have the Colonies back. Take Ken Starr, please! He can
be your self-righteous special prosecutor when Tim Matthews
finally indicts Ufology for all those nutty theories, like
aliens for heaven's sake!

David Rudiak






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   Sep > Sep 23

                Re: Roswell AFB 'Smoking Gun' Telegram Read?

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:08:30 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:15:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell AFB 'Smoking Gun' Telegram Read?


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:44:45 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


<[snippity do dah]>

>Much of this message now has been "read" by the RPIT (Roswell
>Photo Interpretation Team) and this will be revealed tomorrow
>night, Wednesday, September 23, when Ron Regehr, Associate
>Director, MUFON Orange County (CA) and a well-known
>space/satellite engineer, makes the initial report of RPIT at a
>major presentation to MUFON.

>This is being billed in advance notices as a "smoking gun"
>revelation re the Roswell Event. Keep tuned!

>James Bond Johnson

 Hi List, et. al. -

We tried to do this about five years ago, working from prints
made off the original negatives. We were unable to read
anything other than to determine there was information printed
on the sheet and to pick out, with a fair degree of certainty,
some of the letters.

I believe that the Air Force attempted the same thing and were
unable to find anything of use on the paper as well. It will be
interesting to see what Dr. Johnson and his crew have found. It
will be even more interesting to see if anyone can duplicate their
findings.

KRandle







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   Sep > Sep 23

                      IUFOG/PROJECT 1947 Website Back!

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:04:31 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:30:09 -0400
Subject: IUFOG/PROJECT 1947 Website Back!


After some bureaucratic problems, this Project 1947 site is back!

--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
Telephone: (860) 546-9135







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   Sep > Sep 23

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:30:15 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:26:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:40:02 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

<snip>

>>Off-hand, I'd say you've got plenty to laugh about.

>Relevant to Cavitt.

>HAHAHAHAHA

<snip>


Bruce:

I gotta admit, you got me. Had to laugh myself. Now, does this
mean the only thing you've got to say about Roswell has to do
with Cavitt's remarks re same and nothing else?

Now I can see why Ragsdale, Anderson, Kaufmann, Rowe, Dennis,
Montoya, the Anaya brothers, "pathologist" Jesse Johnson, camp
cook Melvin Brown, and the Roswell Fire Department, among others,
might not be such a laughing matter.

When you think they're relevant, let me know.

HAHAHAHAHA

Dennis







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               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:30:17 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:28:32 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:04:25 +0100
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve. net>
>From: Keith Stevens <keith. stevens@virgin. net>
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:45:20 -0500 (CDT)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve. net>
>>From: Dennis <dstacy@texas. net>
>>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

><snip>

Keith:

You make some very good points. Unfortunately, I don't have the
time to respond to every one of them, paragraph by paragraph.

Essentially, you say that someone who knew something would not
necessarily reveal that something to someone else.

Fine and well.

But the same people who wouldn't talk to their own colleagues,
and who presumably signed security oaths 'til death do them
part, are now freely spilling their guts about same simply
because some civilian UFO reasearcher has come calling, asking
questions? Hey, so much for secrecy and security oaths! So much
for death threats and the impenetrable government cover up.

Now you tell me how _that_ makes sense, please.

Dennis







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   Sep > Sep 23

               CIA Dirty Secrets? Why, I'm SHOCKED! SHOCKED!!

From: Doc Barry authority@webtv.net
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:50:52 -0700 (MST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:34:02 -0400
Subject: CIA Dirty Secrets? Why, I'm SHOCKED! SHOCKED!!


Source: Posted on CTRL by Teo1000.

On March 18, 1998, the CIA's Inspector General, Fred Hitz,
finally let the cat out of the bag in an aside at a
Congressional hearing. Hitz told the astounded US Reps that the
CIA had maintained relationships with companies and individuals
that the Agency knew to be involved in the drug business.

Even more astonishingly, Hitz revealed that back in 1982 the CIA
had requested and received from Reagan's Justice Department
clearance not to report any knowledge it might have of
drug-dealing by CIA assets. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0

With these two admissions Hitz definitively sank many years'
worth of CIA denials, much of it under oath to Congress. Hitz's
admissions also made fools of some of the most prominent names
in US journalism, and vindicated investigators and critics of
the Agency, ranging from Al McCoy to Gary Webb. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0

The involvement of the CIA with drug traffickers is a story that
has slouched into the limelight every decade or so since the
creation of the Agency. Most recently, in 1996, the San Jose
Mercury News published a sensational series on the topic, Dark
Alliance, and then helped destroy its own reporter, Gary Webb.

In WHITEOUT, Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair at last
put the whole story together, from the earliest days, when the
CIA's institutional ancestors, the OSS and the Office of Naval
Intelligence, cut a deal with America's premier gangster and
drug trafficker, Lucky Luciano.

They show that many of even the most seemingly outlandish
charges leveled against the Agency have a basis in truth. After
Webb's series, for example, outraged black communities charged
that the CIA had undertaken a program, stretching across many
years, of experiments on minorities.

Cockburn and St. Clair show how the CIA imported Nazi scientists
straight from their labs at Dachau and Buchenwald and set them
to work, developing chemical and biological agents, tested on
blacks, some of them in mental hospitals. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0

Cockburn and St. Clair show how the CIA's complicity with
drug-dealing criminalgangs was part and parcel of its attacks on
labor organizers, whether on the New York docks, or on the docks
of Marseilles and Shanghai. They trace how the Cold War and
counter-insurgency led to an alliance between the Agency and the
vilest of war criminals like Klaus Barbie, or fanatic opium
traders like the mujahedin in Afghanistan. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0

WHITEOUT is a thrilling history that stretches from Sicily in
1944 to the killing fields of Laos and Vietnam, to CIA safe
houses in Greenwich Village and San Francisco where CIA men
watched Agency-paid prostitutes feed LSD to unsuspecting
clients. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=


We meet Oliver North, as he plotted with Manuel Noriega and
Central American gangsters. We travel to little-known airports
in Costa Rica and Arkansas. We hear from drug pilots and
accountants from the Cali Cartel. We learn of DEA agents whose
careers were ruined because they tried to tell the truth.

The CIA, Drugs and the Press. Cockburn and St. Clair dissect the
shameful way American journalists have not only turned a blind
eye to the Agency's misdeeds, but helped plunge the knife into
those who tried to tell the truth. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0

Here at last is the full story. Fact-packed and fast-paced,
WHITEOUT is a richly detailed excavation of the CIA's dirtiest
secrets. For anyone who wants to know the truth about what the
Agency has really been about, this is the book to start with.


~~~~~Get BREAKING news plus UFO/ET news - NOW - click on "What's Up
Doc?" www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518







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   Sep > Sep 23

                      A Russian's view of KGB UFO Files

From: Karen Guetzow <kareng@xanadu2.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:00:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:38:25 -0400
Subject: A Russian's view of KGB UFO Files

The following is an interesting website featuring the views of
Russian born Alex Hefman regarding TNT's "UFO KGB Files".

http://members.tripod.com/~ufokgb

K. Guetzow






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                Re: UFO KGB Files Webpage - Evaluation Of TNT

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:17:46 PDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:49:56 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO KGB Files Webpage - Evaluation Of TNT


>Date: 16 Sep 98 18:51:05 EDT
>From: Alex Hefman <ufokgb@usa.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: UFO KGB Files Webpage (Evaluation Of Tnt Program)

>[Non-subscriber Post --ebk]

>Webpage devoted to the research of
>UFO KGB Files from the TNT program:

>http://members.tripod.com/~ufokgb

>Critical comments welcomed to ufokgb@usa.net


Dear List,

The above page has been updated from when it was first posted
and is now worth a second look with more  images and analysis.

One point of interest regarding the newer img of the alien
autopsy is that the 'arm' has dimensions apparently too large
for the tiny 'torso' next to it, especially when you see the
remaining stump on the torso. The 'fingers' on the 'arm' do not
appear to be what one would expect of a race with the dexterity
of humans, and the small stature indicated by the 'torso'.

The text below accompanied the img.

"The "alien's torso" and "arm" are lying together on the
operation table which shall be explained by the camera presence.
Seems natural for such "unnatural" procedure."

Also, a note is made about how the dissection room interior
appears genuine because rooms of the period have been unchanged
and are still in use - this only reinforces to me that the hoax
was very recently filmed in such a place.

There are more images of the 'large piece' - the 'wreck' remnant
that leans against a tree (with a link to more images on the
CSETI site). I could find no images of the rear of the
'wreckage' and none at all giving a clear and unobstructed view
of it from either the right or the left (from the main view)
edges. This was 'worked around' by the images 'front4.jpg' and
'front5.jpg' giving a supposed left and right view that 'just
happen' to clip off the edges and thereby totally avoid the rear
(bottom) of the 'craft'. Note especially that in the
'front6.jpg' image an obscured view of back of the 'wreck' is
visibly 'square' too close to the edge which seems at odds with
the rest of the aero-dynamics. Actually it looks more like it is
propped up or even braced. Also this image was conveniently
'busied' and with the obstructive placement of the uniformed
extras.

There is mention that this 'large piece' was able to be carried
easily by two men yet I found no image of this. Could be that if
there are any images of this that they would only be from a
similar aspect so as to avoid showing the bracing behind the
styrofaom.

Regards,

Leanne Martin
Computer Enginee @ WANG GLOBAL Australia.






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   Sep > Sep 23

                        Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 03:45:07 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:55:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al


>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:09:52 -0500 (CDT)
>Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:12:19 -0400
>Subject: Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al

>In an earlier post, you suggested that we go back to sharing
>information and discussing evidence. Accordingly, I started a
>new thread, "Evidence for Rudiak Et Al," to do just that.

>I'm appreciative of your comments about, and interpretation of,
>Kimball's own comments. I'm less happy to see you attacking me
>personally again, when it was you who made the call to move on
>beyond personalities.

OK, I apologize. I'll tone it down if you keep it down as well.
I still had a hangover from your previous posts and didn't
realize you were playing it straight.

>Here's is but one example of your technique. You take a sentence
>of mine which includes the phrase "books or articles," and break
>it after the word "books." You then go on to mention only four
>books (and no articles). You make me say something I didn't say,
>or even imply, then make me look like a fool for having "said"
>what you think I said.

The comments about _recent_ articles may have validity, but you
also spoke of Friedman's and Randle's earlier Roswell books, in
which it would have been impossible to incorporate Kimball.
Furthermore Kimball's comments clearly indicated that many of
his current opinions were formed after reading Friedman's book,
and Randle's 1994, plus speaking to the former head of the base
hospital in 1995, so it was obvious that Randle's 1994 was out
too. Friedman's 1996 book dealt with entirely different subject
matter, and had only one very brief mention of Glenn Dennis. So
it was unfair to complain that Kimball wasn't in there either.

Kevin Randle just e-mailed and said that he had never heard of
Kimball until just recently. Well neither had I, and apparently
neither had Cpt. McAndrew, as you pointed out.

Stanton Friedman just spoke for himself and explained that
Kimball didn't know anything when he first interviewed him so he
didn't mention him anywhere. However I take your point. There is
some value in knowing whether people who were there were aware
of anything unusual happening.

Here are some other comments. Kimball wrote that there were only
five nurses at the base and he knew them all. He mentions the
investigation of Vic Golubic who checked into the base medical
personnel, and could find nobody with the name given by Glenn
Dennis for the nurse.

However Kevin Randle pointed this out to me. Golubic actually
discovered that there were around 20 military and civilian
nurses there at the time. So where did Kimball come up with only
five? Well only five are pictured in the yearbook, which
indicates his statement about the nurses was based on the
yearbook, not his memory. Nonetheless, after I suggested that
maybe one of the other nurses could have been Dennis' nurse
under another name, Kevin said he didn't think so and thought
Dennis made her up.

Friedman already pointed out that Kimball's objection to the
photo of the base hospital being fiction is bogus, since this
was a later photo, and the hospital didn't look the same as when
Kimball was there from 1946-48.

Randle & Schmitt gave the rank of the radiologist who allegedly
performed the autopsy (and whom they apparently misidentifed as
a pathologist) as Major Jesse B. Johnson. Kimball said the
yearbook listed him as a 1st lieutenant. Apparently so, but
Randle says he retired a major.  Kimball's objection here then
becomes a quibble. However, his statement that the radiologist
would not have performed the autopsy probably has merit. On the
other hand, if he was the only doctor available at the time,
then maybe not.

My extremely vague memory that Rickett said Cavitt posed as the
base mortuary officer and called for advice stands corrected.
Randle told me Rickett said one of the medical doctors acted as
the mortuary officer, but didn't remember which one.

Kimball obviously wasn't totally familiar with the case, so some
of his objections have no merit. Contrary to what Kimball
believed, high level officers were involved in transport of the
debris, according to Robert Porter and Gen. Dubose. That
undercut Kimball's opinion that nothing of importance was found
because Blanchard didn't personally escort it. He was also
unaware of Dubose's statement that the whole matter was very
highly classified and he was told that it went straight to the
White House. And he was unaware of statements by Gen. Ramey and
the Pentagon initially that the matter was highly classified.

In the end what we have is the following:

1. Kimball wasn't personally aware of anything unusual going on
at the base hospital while he was there, or in other places he
apparently frequented for recreation, like the golf course,
officer's club, swimming pool, etc. (except for the hospital,
these are all irrelevant unless there was loose chatter going on
here, but would there have been?)

2. The hospital head whom he spoke to in 1995 wasn't aware of
anything unusual (or so he told Kimball). Nor had he spoken of
it before, though he was a good friend (but would he have done
so even if he knew something?)

3. Blanchard never mentioned anything about it to him though he
knew him well later in his carrer (but why would he?)

4. Kimball never heard of Glenn Dennis and never spoke to him
for advice on caskets and preservation, even though Kimball
would have acted as the mortuary officer had the occasion
arisen.

That's about it. Nearly everything else he said was opinion.
Like most witnesses, he's a pretty minor character and
personally knew a very limited amount. It's nonetheless worth
noting. Just another piece to the puzzle.

David Rudiak






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               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:07:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:10:01 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:04:25 +0100
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve. net>
>From: Keith Stevens <keith.stevens@virgin.net>
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:45:20 -0500 (CDT)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve. net>
>>From: Dennis <dstacy@texas. net>
>>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

><snip>

>>Apparently, you interviewed Lorenzo Kimball as
>>early as 1992, yet I don't recall seeing his name ever mentioned
>>in any of your writings about Roswell. I trust you weren't
>>trying to avoid a mid-air collision?

>>In fact, I don't recall Kimball being interviewed and/or quoted
>>by Randle and Schmitt, either, although I'm sure that
>>considerable effort was expended by everyone in an attempt to
>>confirm or disconfirm Glenn Dennis's highly dubious account
>>(which even Randle now disavows). Wasn't it?

>Just thought that I would throw a few points into the 'melting
>pot' here with regard to Lorenzo Kimball and his relationship
>with Jack Comstock.

>But first let me digress a few moments. I am led to believe that
>the US Military use a similar form of vetting procedure to the
>British. Here (GB) we use a system of negative and positive
>vetting. For those who do not know negative vetting consists of
>a 'light' check of a candidates background while positive
>vetting involves a thorough background check. Positive vetting
>is both costly and time consuming.

>I also believe that all Officers of both nations are positive
>vetted on enlistment. Positive vetting clearance is required to
>handle any Top Secret material. Positive vetting is on going,
>the candidate faces continual checks on his status through out
>his/her service. It is _not_ a life time award. It can be
>annulled for any breach of security by the individual, with I
>might add, a very detrimental effect on that individuals career.
>Vetting is not a new thing it has been in place for many
>years.

>Further, the right to work with Top Secret material does _not_
>give the individual _any_ right to view, hold, discuss or work
>with _any_ classified material in which he/she is not directly
>involved. It is an Offence against the State to actually do so.
>A fact that is all too often forgotten by the Book writer and
>non Military man.

<snip>

Keith Stevens is correct about the "need to know" being
exercised in the military.

For instance, when I was working on a classified project in
psychological operations at Dept. of the Army HQ at the Pentagon
with a top secret (and higher) security clearance, there were
two Lt. Colonels working in the next office on a project. We all
were assigned to the Special Operations Division and even shared
the same safe and coffee pot. But it was not until much later
that I bought a book about the Son Tay Raid to try and rescue
our captives in North Vietnam that I read their names and
learned that was the project they were working on at that time.

James Bond Johnson
Colonel, USA (Ret.)





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   Sep > Sep 24

                Re: Roswell AFB 'Smoking Gun' Telegram Read?

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:51:53 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:35:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell AFB 'Smoking Gun' Telegram Read?


> From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:08:30 EDT
> To: updates@globalserve.net
> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Roswell AFB 'Smoking Gun' Telegram Read?

>Hi List, et. al. -

>We tried to do this about five years ago, working from prints
>made off the original negatives. We were unable to read
>anything other than to determine there was information printed
>on the sheet and to pick out, with a fair degree of certainty,
>some of the letters.

>I believe that the Air Force attempted the same thing and were
>unable to find anything of use on the paper as well. It will be
>interesting to see what Dr. Johnson and his crew have found. It
>will be even more interesting to see if anyone can duplicate their
>findings.

>KRandle

All,

They mustn't have tried very hard, a source file will be
available shortly on my site so you can all "have a go" with
Photoshop or PSP, together with a selection of images Ron and
Bond will be presenting tonight (Wed.) at the Orange County MUFON
meeting.

I will post to the list when the link is "live".

Neil.










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   Sep > Sep 24

                           Re: A Research Question

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:14:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:40:08 -0400
Subject: Re: A Research Question


>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:33:22 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: A Research Question

<snip>

>Hello, Bruce Maccabbee, Scott Carr and List:>

>A formula used by astronomers to estimate urban sky glow is
>called "Walkers Law". It can be used to estimate the sky glow at
>an observing site, looking at an angle 45 degrees from overhead,
>toward an urban source d kilometers away.

>The formula is

>I = 0.01Pd(superscript-2.5)

>where I is the increase in sky glow level above the natural
>background and P is the population of the city and d is the
>distance to the center of the city in km.

>More information can be found at the following site of the
>International Dark Sky Association, which fights "light
>pollution":   http://www.darksky.org/ida/ida_2/info11.html


Thanks for posting "Walker's Law". THis was developed, I presume,
by experiment. Certainly would depend upon atmospheric conditions
such as dust particle loading and moisture. Anyway, Based on what
I have read in responses to the original post I would conclude
that the skyglow from  Las Vegas could be seen perhaps up to 100
miles by dark adapted eyes.






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   Sep > Sep 24

                         Re: University's UFO Degree

From: Sean Jones <Tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 20:24:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:49:58 -0400
Subject: Re: University's UFO Degree


Source: 'The Daily Telegraph' [UK] 18Sep98


A University is launching Britain's first course on Aliens from
outer space. Students will study extra-terrestrials, UFOs,
intersteller travel and the search for life.

The life in the Universe course forms part of an astronomy
degree for students at Glamorgan University's school of Applied
Science.

---
    In an infinite universe inifinitely anything is posible.
       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
 Research page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/






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               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Keith Stevens <keith. stevens@virgin. net>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 21:23:49 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:03:08 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:30:17 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

<snip>

>But the same people who wouldn't talk to thier own colleagues
>and who presumably signed security oaths 'til death do them
>part, are now freely spilling their guts about the same simply. . . .

<snip>

Dennis,

It is hard to justify any body breaching an oath of secrecy be
it Military, Economic or Political. I shall not attempt to do
so. It is a sad fact of life that it happens. I do not need to
remind you of the countless espionage cases from the Cold War
for example.

However, that people can keep secrets from close loved ones let
alone work colleagues is beyond dispute. Some people,
fortunately _can_ keep secrets.

I noticed your reference to so called threats to Kill people.
(Not exactly your words but the best I can recall) I appreciate
that this has been claimed by some witnesss', but, I would
contend that this is really very unlikely

Have you ever sat back and thought about this?It is extremely
difficult to enforce such a threat without actually killing
someone. The moment you do you expose part of your self for
others to see. That is why most democratic governments stay well
clear of this sought of tactic.

Allow me to make the suggestion that it would be easier for the
Government to simply deny and indeed ridicule Roswell than it
would be to, as you suggest, threaten to kill people or admit it
may have occurred by prosecuting them.

Which do you think would be the wiser course of action? I would
contend that killing/prosecuting people would be far too messy
and completely counter-productive. No, just deny it happened and
pour scorn and ridicule, perhaps indirectly using third parties,
on those who may indeed know the truth!

If you wish to reply Dennis I will be on the Net until Thursday
(24th) then I am off to Florida for three weeks. Might even
'Breeze' up the Gulf ;)

Regards

Keith. . . . . . . Keep the Faith







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   Sep > Sep 24

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:38:38 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:52:08 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:30:17 -0500 (CDT)
>Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:28:32 -0400
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>But the same people who wouldn't talk to their own colleagues,
>and who presumably signed security oaths 'til death do them
>part, are now freely spilling their guts about same simply
>because some civilian UFO reasearcher has come calling, asking
>questions? Hey, so much for secrecy and security oaths! So much
>for death threats and the impenetrable government cover up.

>Now you tell me how _that_ makes sense, please.

It's not a very difficult concept, really. People are different.
After 30-50 years of maintaining silence, some military people
have chosen to talk, and some haven't. Some have flat-out
refused or have spun stories that don't make sense. Cavitt is a
classic example, but there are many others who won't talk about
it. Major Cashon, e.g., Ramey's PIO, whom Dubose deeply
implicated in Ramey's cover-up, refused to discuss the matter
when Kevin Randle finally located him in 1992. Had he talked, we
would have found out a lot more about what happened that
afternoon.

Even among witnesses who have discussed the incident, we find
examples of great reticence. They aren't exactly "spilling their
guts." Provost marshal Edwin Easley is a very good example. At
first he told Kevin Randle that he had taken an oath and
couldn't talk about, but he did try to steer Randle in the
proper direction. Just before he died, he finally admitted the
crash was extraterrestrial. Col. Patrick Saunders, one of
Blanchard's staff officers, didn't give Randle any information.
But on the jacket of Randle's second book he wrote, "Here's the
truth and I still haven't told anybody anything." Jesse Marcel,
who said much, nevertheless indicated in one interview that
there were still some things that he couldn't discuss (bodies
perhaps?).

Others confided only with people they trusted deeply, like
family members or close friends, a normal, human thing to do.
That's where we get a lot of those second-hand stories. Oliver
"Pappy" Henderson is one of the better examples (and one of the
more convincing accounts of alien bodies being recovered).
Blanchard also spoke to his two wives and few others that the
material was very strange and not from any balloon. Even Cavitt
apparently confided in his wife, judging by her comments.

And I'm sure there are others who kept it all to themselves and
never told anybody, not even their spouse or children. People
are different. Is that really so hard to understand?

David Rudiak







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               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 05:27:56 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:43:25 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


It wold appear that Dave Rudiak is still taking the tablets...


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:12:48 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:48:12 +0100
>Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:20:22 -0400
>Subject:

>>And what about the revelation in the October edition of the UK
>>magazine 'Focus' that some sort of glider with attached balloon
>>was being tested at the time?

>>How many crash sites now? Eight?

>>Of course if it isn't aliens nobody takes any notice - an
>>indictment of Ufology if ever there was one.....

>You folks in the UK seem to be lagging badly behind the US when
>it comes to learning about screwball theories. Your glider with
>with attached balloon was some theory first assembled by the
>science editor of Popular Mechanics magazine in July 1997 for
>the 50th Roswell anniversary. Of course, no evidence was
>presented that there ever was such a thing, but it made for fine
>bathroom reading.

Not my theory mate. Just pointing out one fleeting mention of it
in the article - not written by me but great stuff anyway.

>Yes folks. It was an experimental Japanese Fugo-type spy balloon
>with a Horten glider suspended underneath and manned by a
>Japanese crew (the Japanese were very clever at miniaturizing
>_everything_, even back then). The Japanese crew explained the
>small bodies with the Oriental features.

Well, that's _not_ what it says in 'Focus' and not what I have
said - but who cares about misrepresentation?

>Well, that covered most of the bases, no matter how preposterous
>it was. Now our friend Tim Matthews is swallowing it whole
>because it fits in his tight little box that all unexplained
>UFOs are really secret military projects.

Never said that and never will. Don't put people into convenient
boxes. Dave, you're making it up.

>Between Tim Matthews and Presidential sex scandals, we have more
>comic material than we can handle. Please stop! We surrender!
>You can have the Colonies back. Take Ken Starr, please! He can
>be your self-righteous special prosecutor when Tim Matthews
>finally indicts Ufology for all those nutty theories, like
>aliens for heaven's sake!

What can I say - must be those stains on your clothing Dave!






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   Sep > Sep 24

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:29:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:47:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


> From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:55:20 -0400

>> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:28:57 -0500 (CDT)
>> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>> From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>> Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>The pity is that this
>>issue could, theoretically, be resolved by submitting the
>>original documents and ufologists' arguments against the literal
>>interpretation of same to an individual military historian (or
>>panel) conversant with procedure, and letting him, her or them
>>issue an informed opinion. Highly unlikely it will ever happen,
>>but there's the suggestion, nonetheless.

>Dennis, I agree, and have been thinking the same thing throughout
>this debate. We need an informed military historian to comment
>not just on the various Twining and McCoy memos (the ones that
>don't mention any recovered UFOs), but on why the Roswell press
>release might have been issued. I'm tired of seeing speculation
>when what we need are some professional opinion.

Then let's do away with the speculation and rely on the
testimony of one of David Rudiak's favorite witnesses, none
other than Major Jesse Marcel. Let's refer back to Bob Pratt's
interview of Marcel on December 8, 1979, where Marcel explains
how the press release got out:

"In the meantime, we had an eager-beaver public relations
officer -- he found out about it-- he calls the AP [Associated
Press] about it. Then that's when it really hit the fan -- I
don't mind using that expression."

Just because Walter Haut is still alive, and Major Marcel and
Colonel Blanchard are dead, doesn't mean Haut necessarily told
the truth about the circumstances surrounding the press release.
His claim that Blanchard ordered the release might very well be
self-serving, in that he could have made the release without
authorization (which he may not have needed anyway) from Colonel
Blanchard, and invented the claim that Blanchard ordered the
release so as not to look like a hotdog or a fool. Let's get
Haut's permission to examine the _complete_ contents of _his_
military personnel file to see if it contains any reprimands
(even though that wouldn't necessarily be definitive, because,
as Stanton Friedman constantly reminds us, absence of evidence
is not evidence of absence).

This might well be one of the few times Marcel actually told the
truth. This idea makes more sense than any of the exotic,
contorted, paranoia-driven "explanations" the Roswell promoters
have come up with yet. And it has the added benefit that it does
not favor either side of the controversy. It works whether what
"crashed" on the Foster Ranch was a portion of a Mogul balloon
train, or an alien spaceship. An eager-beaver PIO is an eager-
beaver PIO, regardless of the cause of the incident. It might
turn out that Haut made the release before he got word of the
identification of the debris at Fort Worth. Haut jumped the gun.
Had he waited, the news release might never have been released
at all, or, if it was released, its contents might have been
drastically different.

This is a reasonable, rational explanation for the release,
based on Major Marcel's statements. In fact, this is the _only_
explanation that makes _any_ sense at all. What is curious is
how this explanation virtually has been ignored for almost
twenty years, in favor of the contrived nonsense senarios that
seem to grow in complexity and sensationalism.

>(That said, I'm not remotely convinced by Printy, who despite his
>status as a Chief Petty Officer in the Navy has no more
>competence than the rest of us to decide these issues. He thinks
>Twining -- if an alien craft had really crashed -- wouldn't have
>said there was no recovered debris because making a false
>statement to his superiors would have been a violation of
>military law.

Except that Printy has logic and common sense on his side. What
_rational_ human being could conclude that Twining had the need
to know about the supposed alien spacecraft but his superiors in
the Pentagon didn't? Leaving that questions aside, what
_rational_ human being would contend that the Army Air Forces
could institute a massive cover-up, fly aircraft all over the
country to parcel out pieces of the alien spaceship debris to
secret laboratories, and could silence dozens of civilians and
presumably hundreds of its own personnel, all without Army Air
Forces headquarters finding out about it? Nonsense!

It _is_ absurd to contend that the alien spaceship debris was
_so_ secret that even AAF leaders -- with the exception of Gen.
Twining -- were kept out of the loop. In fact, the contention
that the American people would not have been informed of the
crash of an alien spaceship itself is a ridiculous proclamation.
I dispute the need to keep the fact of the crash secret, and in
fact there are very good reasons for believing they would _not_
have kept it secret.

First, they could have announced the crash without revealing
_any_ Top Secret technical details. The fact that an alien
spaceship crashed would not reveal any of those details.

More importantly, there is at least one very good reason for
disclosing the fact that such a crash occurred. The military
authorities could not be sure the crashed alien spaceship wasn't
the vanguard of an all-out invasion, which would have required
the military to remobilize, just as a precaution.

Further, even the arrogant military knows that it would be
infinitely better to have a prepared public than one that would
-- without question -- panic should such an all-out attack
occur. Not only would the military have to contend with the
attackers, but also with an hysterical populace, making their
job infinitely more difficult. Obviously, informing the public
couldn't eliminate _all_ panic, but the panic would be lessened.

Furthermore, the military could not be sure another alien
spacecraft wouldn't crash in the middle of New York's Times
Square at high noon, an event that would be impossible to cover
up, and one that likely would lead to widespread panic in the
streets. By informing the public of the Roswell crash, it would
innoculate the public at least against the total shock that
would result if they were not prepared for such an event,
especially if the aliens proved to be hostile. Even if, through
some majical means, the military was able to determine that the
aliens were friendly and meant us no harm, they could _not_ rely
on that to be true, and would _have_ to prepare for the worst.
And that includes preparing the public in advance. They needn't
have released _any_ details of the technology involved.

All this is in addition to the military's own need to formulate
countermeasures against the alien spacecraft, and build up
militarily against the possibility of an alien invasion, actions
which would be impossible to hide because they would require
tons of money. There isn't a shred of evidence to show any
countermeasures were developed, and there isn't a shred of
evidence to show any unusual military build ups occurred that
cannot be explained reasonably by the cold war against the
Soviets.

And if we're talking about military history, again, the vast
quantity of available military documentation from that period
gives absolutely no indication of any heigthened state of alert
of the military forces around the time of the Roswell incident
-- no indications whatsoever. This is astonishing, _IF_ an alien
spaceship really was recovered in the Roswell incident. There
was a brief mention of aircraft being on alert for generic
"flying discs" in Washington State, but _nothing_ on the scale
any reasonable person might expect following the crash of an
alien spaceship whose occupants' intentions were unknown. The
evidence simply is not there to support this ludicrous
contention.

>Right -- and no military people ever lied during >the Vietnam
war, and the USA is a land of equal justice for all, >where rich
and poor get exactly the same defence when they're >arrested and
put on trial. Please. This is a complicated issue, >but we're
not going to resolve it with naive piety.)

This is a completely irrelevant argument. Besides the fact that
1947 was a completely different age, with an entirely different
set of ethical standards, it still is a ludicrous idea to
suppose that Twining _could_ keep such an event secret from his
own superiors in the Pentagon. Even if we accept that the
military could keep it secret from the public, it is _not_
possible for Twining to have kept it secret from his superiors.
Surely this idea must be recognized for what it is, an absurd
rationalization designed to explain away what is painfully
obvious, that no alien spaceship crashed in New Mexico in 1947.
It doesn't take a military historian to apply logic and common
sense to the situation, and to recognize an absurd
rationalization when you see one -- except if you want the
Roswell incident to go on, and on, and on, forever.

I find it absolutely astonishing that so many people in the UFO
field take this contrived rationalization seriously, simply
because somebody like Stanton Friedman proposes it. It defies
logic and common sense, and this absurd claim should have been
rejected outright when it was first made.

Overwhelmingly, the evidence shows that _no_ recovery of an
alien spaceship occurred during the Roswell incident.

Robert Todd







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   Sep > Sep 24

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:42:22 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:26:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:44:08 -0500 (CDT)
>Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:11:34 -0400
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:48:21 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

<snip>

>>This is in Attachment 33 to the 1995 A.F. Report, entitled
>>"Mensuration Working Paper, with Photo and Drawing, February 15,
>>1994." They analyzed stick length in one of the photos of Ramey
>>and Dubose (Dubose sitting, holding a piece of foil, looking
>>right; Ramey squatting down, looking left, and holding your "FBI
>>telegram" in his hand).

>>Various sticks in the photo were given letter labels and their
>>lengths calculated. One stick in the lower right of the photo
>>labeled "C" is clearly longer than any of the others. Then they
>>made up a schematic working diagram of the various sticks. On
>>the schematic (not the photo), stick "C" has clearly been
>>cropped (compare to photo). It's then listed in a table in
>>their "mensuration working papers" as being only 35.4 inches
>>long, or 3 feet.

>David:

>Thanks for the elaboration. I was originally under the
>impression that you were accusing McAndrew of mischievously
>cropping the picture _before_ sending it out for analysis.

>I'm looking at what you're looking at, but don't see the same
>thing, although I'm willing to stand corrected. Here, then, for
>what it's worth, is how I see it.

>First, I'm assuming that the supposed "cropped" section of stick
>C extends toward the viewer at the bottom of the picture. If
>you'll look just below the C-block pasted on the picture, it
>appears to me that stick C ends at this point, underneath what
>appears to be a small piece of overlapping paper. What you take
>as a continuation of stick C appears to me to be an empty
>channel or sleeve in which such sticks were originally
>positioned.

For a better view of this stick, go to Attachment 16, "Fort
Worth Star- Telegram Photographs of Balloon Debris," which has
the same photo but without letters obscuring some of the
details. There is a continuation of stick "C" _in a very
straight line_ beyond the crop point, tapering down to the end,
which butts up against stick "A" near the lower edge of the
photo. In the photo in Attach. 33, this end is obscured by the
placement of the letter "A." Except for the short region which
you believe might be empty sleeving, the stick appears to be
very solid in all portions beyond the crop point. But more
importantly, if the region in question was empty of stick, one
would expect an obvious bend here instead of everything falling
in a nice straight line from one end to the other.

>Now, look at the map view of the various sticks and you'll
>notice this. Whenever the end of a stick is plainly visible, the
>schematic indicates same. Notice how the far end of stick C is
>boxed off, ditto the far end of stick G, and the near (left) end
>of stick E. Notice that the right end of stick E and the left
>end of stick G are left _open_ to indicate an indistinct ending
>according to the picture. Similary, the near (bottom) end of
>stick C is left open to indicate that it can't be determined --
>from the picture -- exactly where under the overlapping flap of
>paper stick C precisely ends.

While I understand what you are saying, the lower end of the
stick IS plainly visible, but is obscured by the placement of
the letters. Yes, there is some ambiguity as to whether the main
portion of the stick might end at their crop point, but a more
honest analysis would have taken this ambiguity into account and
made two computations of length.

>The Mensuation Working Paper, if I read it rightly, says the
>accuracy is within 10%. Presumably, one could add another 3.54
>inches to the already existing 35.4 inches of stick C and come
>up with a length of 38.94 inches.

If you use the already existing scale used by the A.F. and
extend the stick beyond the crop point to the clearly visible
lower end, the length of the stick is 51 inches. If you rescale
by 10%, then the long estimate becomes 56.5 inches. You can't
rescale the short estimate to try to close the gap because the
long estimate increases by the same proportion. You can't
rescale one without rescaling the other. 56.5 inches, BTW, would
make the stick much too long to have come from a Mogul radar
reflector.

My estimate of 47 inches was a conservative one based on 1) My
own scaling system (the stripes on the rug), and 2) assuming
that the stick was inclined at only 45 degrees w.r.t. the
stripes (or more correctly, the rug edge). I added that in
review, it appeared the angle was steeper than this, perhaps as
much as 55 degrees, in which case the stick was really 55 inches
long.

Looking at your criticisms, I went back to the working
schematic, which shows the relative inclinations of the far edge
of the rug and the sticks. When I measured the angle between
stick "C" and the rug edge, I found that it was indeed 55
degrees according to the A.F.'s own analysis, meaning my
estimate should really have been 55 inches. If we assume that my
scaling overestimated the length by 10%, then the length would
have been 49.5 inches, which would barely make it possible for
this stick to have come from a ML-307 radar reflector. The short
estimate would shrink accordingly (on my scaling system), down
to about 34 inches.

>Anyway, that's my take on your "cropped" C stick, which you believe
>indicates manipulated data. Anyone else have an opinion?

>>I hope a real photo expert like Bruce Maccabee will take another
>>look at this problem. In fact, if it can be shown that the
>>stick was substantially longer than 4 feet, it would rule out it
>>coming from a Mogul radar target and virtually prove that there
>>was a debris substitution in Fort Worth.

>Maybe I'm wrong, and someone can prove me so. But in the
>meantime, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill
>here.

Not if the stick continues beyond the crop point. That could
very well rule out Mogul and prove a debris substitution. What
is needed in particular is a very good blow-up of the region in
question to see if there really is solid stick there.

David Rudiak





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   Sep > Sep 24

                Re: KGB UFO Files - Another Film Stock Fraud?

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:48:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:40:15 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB UFO Files - Another Film Stock Fraud?

>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:51:19 +0000
>From: neil morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: KGB UFO Files - Another Film Stock Fraud?
>To: updates@globalserve.net

><snip>

>Dear All,

>I'm not doubting Rodger's knowledge in these matters but I would
>like to point out that I and my late father were using Russian
>colour film stock for 'home-processing' in the mid 60's.

>I gather it had been available well before this in the SU. We
>were using 16mm stock double punched for std 8 double run cine on
>25 foot rolls which we hand sliced down to the 8mm guage after
>processing in a 16mm tank.

>Their process was very obscure, required in excess of 25+ process
>stages and was a "reversal" process ie you first developed a
>partial "negative" image which was then "lost" the remaining
>"positive" was then developed on to give the final "positive"
>colour image.

>This system did produce a "negative" image as the first stage of
>the film process but was sacrificed in the reversal process, I
>don't see why the system could not have been tailored to produce
>a negative if needed.

>There may have been some dark chemestry that disallowed this but
>the neg image was there to be seen when the film was re-exposed
>to white light ready for the reversal development.

>As I recall the film system was marketed here in the UK as
>"Technopan", it did take forever to process the stuff but the
>results were remarkably good on the whole, they also sold a 35mm
>version for slides.

>Neil.

Regarding: Neil@adml.ph.man.ac.uk,

Neil,

You are quite correct about the Soviet reversal film you and your
father processed in the 60's.

In fact, any direct reversal film such as Kodak's Ektachrome
(either slides or motion picture) using E-6, E-4 or E-3 style
chemistry will produce a recognizable negative image after the
first stage of developing. (Kodachrome won't because it's a
die-transfer process and can't be processed at home; very toxic,
also)

However, recognizable isn't the same thing as usable.

As I'm sure you've found through experimentation, any type of
print from the resulting negative you described would be pretty
wretched. Technically possible? Yes. Practical? No.

I don't see the Soviets risking an important image to such an
arcane process. And, make no mistake about it, the Soviet film
looked damn good; too good for the process described above. It
makes as little sense as the presentation of 35mm film cans when
the film on display was clearly 16mm!

I am an ardent believer of UFO visitation. However, the Soviet
film - just like the Santilli Roswell film - is a pretty poor
attempt to take advantage of those in the market place that
will, literally, buy anything that smacks of UFO proof.

However, I am very interested in the Soviet film you were
home-processing in the 60's as it would predate Kodak's
Ektachrome by many years.

Hope to hear more...
Roger Evans






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   Sep > Sep 24

                           MAGONIA ETH Bulletin #7

From: Mark Pilkington <m.pilkington@virgin.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 23:01:47 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:00:41 -0400
Subject: MAGONIA ETH Bulletin #7


MAGONIA ETH Bulletin

Editor: JOHN HARNEY

No. 7   September 1998
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

EDITORIAL

Many ufologists obviously misunderstand our criticisms of the ETH and our
espousal of the PSH. Most UFO reports can be explained and the PSH is often
useful in showing how such reports can be coloured by popular beliefs about
UFOs, and science fiction stories and films about extraterrestrial beings.<
By examining some of the most puzzling reports we hope to tease out any
facts which cannot be explained with reference to the psychology of the
witnesses or the influences of popular culture. Thus, if the ETH is valid,
our efforts will serve only to strengthen the evidence in favour of it.

___________________________________________________________________________

WALTON AGAIN

How was it done?
In issue No. 2 of this Bulletin (April 1998) I discussed the Travis Walton
UFO abduction story, with particular reference to the difficulties
encountered in explaining it as a hoax. I also discussed possible motives.
These motives, real or conjectural, have been discussed at great length by
UFO believers and sceptics alike.
I raised the matter again in issue No. 3 (May 1998), hoping that someone
would be able to give a coherent and convincing reconstruction of the
Walton affair. Since then I have read all the descriptions and comments on
the case that I could find in the literature available to me. Most of them
dwell on possible motives and suspicious words and behaviour by Walton,
Rogers and others which indicate a hoax as the likely explanation.
However, as I pointed out in the May 1998 issue, what I am trying to
discover are not the reasons for perpetrating a hoax, but the means by
which it was carried out.

Some of those who favour the hoax explanation believe that it was
organised by the Walton family, and others believe that Mike Rogers was in
on it also and that it was largely instigated by him.
Town Marshal Santon Flake asserted:

I think the whole thing is a hoax, set up by Travis and his brother Duane,
to make some money. I believe the other kids did see something, but they
were hoaxed, too. What they saw was an inflated rubber raft, or something
like that, all lit up and hung in the trees to look like a UFO. Travis set
them up, telling them stories about UFOs; and when he had them ready, it
happened. (1)

Does the hoax theory make sense?
So, according to this scenario, Travis and his brother Duane, being UFO
buffs (according to some investigators), decided to fake a UFO. On 5
November 1975, while Travis was taking every opportunity to get his
workmates wound up by telling them UFO horror stories, Duane was busy
rigging up a life raft, or some similar object with a light inside it, in
the trees near where the truck would have to pass on its way out of the
forest.
Just think about it. This version depends on the gang of loggers being
credulous, timid and very short-sighted. If they were really like that
wouldn't they be more likely to be at home with their mothers, helping with
the housework and the shopping (when their nerves weren't too bad), rather
than wielding chainsaws in the forest?
No, if it was a hoax then Rogers and the rest of the gang must have been in
on it. This brings us to the difficulty that I mentioned in the April
issue. This is the problem of the brilliant acting and well-rehearsed story
required to convince police officers that something inexplicable really
happened. If the loggers' acting was not brilliant, then this raises the
possibility that the police officers they contacted were also in on the
hoax. The motive for this would presumably be the overtime payments they
could expect as a result of pretending to search for Walton. This would
also conveniently explain the eventual disappearance of police files on the
case. (2)

Police investigations
It is said that the police suspected that the men had murdered Walton and
then invented the flying saucer story in a pathetic attempt to cover up the
crime. But I have not managed to find any account of the police having the
mens' clothing, truck and chainsaws subjected to forensic testing for
bloodstains. Yet, when Sheriff Gillespie got a tip-off at 2:30 a.m. on the
morning of 11 November that someone had called Walton's brother-in-law,
Grant Neff, from a phone booth at Heber filling station, he sent a couple
of deputies there to collect fingerprints.

Jerome Clark writes: "There were no prints at all on the phone in the
third booth . . . The other two had prints, but so far as Ellison and Romo
could determine in the cold and dark, none was Walton's." (3) Just picture
the scene. The men dust the phones to show up the prints. One holds the
torch while the other squints at the phone. Finally he shakes his head.
"No, none of them are Walton's; I'd recognise his prints anywhere."
Actually the men would have transferred the prints to sticky tape and they
would later be compared, by a fingerprint expert, with a set of Walton's
prints. Walton claims to have phoned Neff at 12:05 a.m. and the deputies
could not have arrived at the phone booths until about three hours later.
Thus there was plenty of time for other people to have used the phones and
obscured Walton's prints. As negative evidence supporting the hoax theory,
this one is a non-starter.

That bruise
Another non-starter is the nonsense about the bruise. Rogers and his gang
alleged that Walton was hurled backwards, landing heavily on his right
shoulder. One gets the impression that some people seem to think that a
bruise is like a tattoo; once you get one it is there for keeps. Walton
asserted that, as a healthy young man, he did not get any noticeable
bruises. This is hard to believe, but, according to a medical encyclopedia,
(4) "If a bruise does not fade after about one week . . . a doctor should
be consulted." Walton's medical examination, arranged by APRO, took place
six days after the alleged incident, thus giving time for the bruise (if he
ever had one) to have faded away.

A normal working day?
One possible approach to the puzzle is to try to list the most relevant
undisputed facts of the case. This is rather difficult. Obviously, we
should start with what Rogers and his gang were doing during the morning
and afternoon of 5 November.
It is easy to assume that they were simply engaged in their normal work.
This would make sense if the incident was not a hoax. In fact, there is
some dispute as to what happened that day, as Walton himself acknowledges.
In his first book he "was trying to show readers what a typical workday was
like", and in his second book he attempts to set the record straight by
saying that he had been asleep when the truck arrived at the work site, and
that he then spent "less than two hours" resting. After that he worked
normally for the rest of the day.
Here he is trying to counter an allegation made by Steve Pierce who, when
approached by a person offering him a large sum of money - said to be
$10,000 - to deny the reality of the UFO sighting, denied that it was a
hoax but said that Walton had "not worked at all that day, was gone most of
the day, and that Mike Rogers had disappeared for hours that morning". (5)
Walton insists that this is untrue, that no one left the work site, and he
quotes from statements by Mike Rogers and John Goulette supporting his
version.

The UFO
Thus we have at least one of the gang saying that it was not a normal
working day. Next we come to the UFO sighting itself. Apparently, all seven
men agree on the essential details; at least none has publicly disagreed
with the published descriptions of the alleged encounter, although
different accounts disagree about the details. Walton's account even
appears to contradict itself. He tells us that "a mere ninety feet above
the ground, a strange, golden disc hovered silently" and, in the next
paragraph that "the metallic craft hung motionless, fifteen feet above a
tangled pile of logging slash". (6) That the slash pile was 75 feet high
seems unlikely.
The main problem here is that we have only Walton's detailed account to go
on. What we need are detailed accounts written independently by the other
six men. However, if we believe that it was a hoax, then they didn't see
anything unusual. This brings us to the first undisputed fact and one of
the major difficulties in explaining the affair as a hoax.


Brilliant acting?
At about 7:35 that evening, Ken Peterson phoned Deputy Sheriff Chuck
Ellison and told him that one of the crew was missing. He drove to meet
them in Heber, where he was joined within an hour by Sheriff Martin
Gillespie and Undersheriff Ken Coplan. So far as I know, no one has
attempted to deny that the men were in a highly emotional state about the
alleged flying saucer and the mysterious disappearance of Walton. It is
also agreed that they were closely questioned without their story falling
apart. And, as I and others have said before, it is generally agreed that
if the men were acting then it was very good acting.
For some critics of the story this is the sticking point. They can't get
over it so they backtrack and say that perhaps something very strange did
happen, but it wasn't a flying saucer. Thus we get the hand-waving theories
about some rare plasma phenomenon that terrifies the crew and zaps Walton
with an electrical discharge, causing him to wander around in a trance
until he returns more or less to normal five days later, with an
electrically induced fantasy about being abducted by aliens. Phew! If you
believe that, you'll believe anything.

Conclusions
It's easy to discuss the Walton case as a hoax by attributing various
motives to the people involved, but this does not help us to understand it.
It is not clear, for example, who were the hoaxers and who were hoaxed.
There is also considerable disagreement as to the interpretation of the
behaviour of Walton's brother Duane and his mother Mary Walton Kellett
after they had been told of Walton's disappearance. Did they already know
what was going on or did it come as a surprise? It is easy to twist the
evidence to support one's preferred explanation.
What we need, if we are to dismiss the case as a hoax, is a coherent
account describing how it was organised and executed and who were involved
in the plot. Any ideas, anyone? And I don't want to hear any more about
motives.

References
1. Barry, Bill. "Kidnapped", in Rogo, D. Scott (ed.). UFO Abductions: True
Cases of Alien Kidnappings, Signet Books, New York, 1980, 35
2. Walton, Travis. Fire in the Sky: The Walton Experience, Marlowe &
Company, New York, 1997, 276
3. Clark, Jerome. The UFO Encyclopedia 2nd Edition: The Phenomenon from the
Beginning, Omnigraphics, Detroit, 1998, 986 (A review of this monumental
work is being prepared for publication in Magonia.)
4. Smith, Tony (ed.). The British Medical Association Complete Family
Health Encyclopedia, Dorling Kindersley, London, 1996
5. Walton, op. cit., 131-132
6. Ibid., 36
__________________________________________________________________________

LETTERS

Thanks for continuing to send ETH Bulletin. Always of great interest. The
current issue brought large smiles because of its discussion of both
migraine and Levelland, two issues debated by me in books that Magonia
ridiculed. The first point - migraine - is assessed alongside epilepsy and
blood sugar changes that may well precipitate the OZ factor at the onset of
close encounters. I think it is very relevant as I have found a high
incidence of migraine claims amongst repeater witnesses. See my book Mind
Monsters (Aquarian, 1990) for this discussion. A number of readers felt
that this book was an interesting set of theoretical ideas, linking as it
does physics with psychology. Most UFO magazines never even reviewed it and
it only sold 2500 copies - all in the UK. Indeed, I bought all the
left-over stock and still have about 100 copies. I still get people telling
me it is one of my best.
As for Levelland, there are many significant features to this case. To me
by far the most interesting is not mentioned at all in your survey -
possibly because it's in another Magonia rebuked book (The Complete Book of
UFOs, Piatkus, 1997; earlier editions also carry the story).

Here, what I found most intriguing was the reports not just at Levelland
but in the atomic test bunkers that same night. Especially when compared
with the Derek Murray case, reported direct to me by the witness. This guy
is an excellent witness (and since the book I have had an independent
back-up to his story - so it holds together). They were with the RAF at
Maralinga - site of the UK atomic tests - and witnessed a UFO directly over
the bomb blast site. This appears to have occurred virtually simultaneously
with the USA events (allowing for time zones). Thus we have on that one
night - the very night the first life-form from Earth is launched into
space (Laika) - the apparent demonstration of technological superiority
displayed at Levelland and - in two completely independent cases - UFOs
directly over over the sites of (a) the location where the first ever
atomic weapon was detonated 12 years earlier and (b) the location where the
most recent blast took place only days before - on the other side of the
world in Australia.
To me this sequence of events is perhaps the most persuasive there is that
something "alien" might be behind the UFO mystery. The timing and the
sequence of events is so intriguing it does seem to suggest a correlation
and an implicit message or warning.
So - in my view - Levelland is all the more interesting for these rather
obscure connections that you don't seem to have known about.
Jenny Randles, Buxton, Derbyshire

Re multiple witnesses, I would rate the Gill case in Papua on three
consecutive days, 26, 27, 28 June 1959 as one of the best on record. The
witnesses were not independent but there were plenty of them (nearly 40)
and some of their names are known. I put this forward as a challenge; is
there a convincing non-ETH explanation for the sightings? Is this really
unanswerable evidence of ETH? Personally I think it is solvable, but only
by stretching things to the limit. There are clues in Rev. Cruttwell's
report suggesting the answer. However, it still stands as surely one of the
best close-encounter cases ever. I rate it far higher than the
close-encounter cases you give in Bulletin No. 6. Perhaps you could let
readers have your views on it.
Christopher Allan, Stoke on Trent

RUSSIAN UFO CRASHES

In a two-page spread in issue 28 (1998) of the magazine Alien Encounters
appears a remarkable list of UFO crashes and retrievals in Russia. These
amazing events seem to have gone unnoticed by most ufologists, but here
they are faithfully chronicled by Philip Mantle. This absurd item is
neither entertaining nor amusing. So why was it published? Has Mantle gone
as mad as the editors of Alien Encounters? Can anyone explain?

---------
MAGONIA ETH Bulletin is edited by John Harney BA (not an English major, not
a nuclear physicist) and is available on the Magonia web site. Printed
copies are available only for the privileged few. The editor is not
on-line, so please address all correspondence, articles, etc. to him at: 27
Enid Wood House, High Street, Bracknell, Berkshire RG12 1LN  UK


Mark Pilkington
------------------------------------------------

Magonia Online



http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk

The nearest simile I can find to express the difficulties of sending a
message is that I appear to be standing behind a sheet of frosted glass...
which blurs sight and deadens sound, dictating feebly to a reluctant and
somewhat obtuse secretary.=A0 A feeling of terrible powerlessness thus
burdens me... it is a dark road.







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   Sep > Sep 24

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:13:50 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:44:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:55:20 -0400

>(That said, I'm not remotely convinced by Printy, who despite his
>status as a Chief Petty Officer in the Navy has no more
>competence than the rest of us to decide these issues. He thinks
>Twining -- if an alien craft had really crashed -- wouldn't have
>said there was no recovered debris because making a false
>statement to his superiors would have been a violation of
>military law. Right -- and no military people ever lied during
>the Vietnam war, and the USA is a land of equal justice for all,
>where rich and poor get exactly the same defence when they're
>arrested and put on trial. Please. This is a complicated issue,
>but we're not going to resolve it with naive piety.)

>Greg Sandow


Greg,

Thanks as always for your eminent civility.

As I hope you're well aware, the Viet Nam lies were revealed for
what they were within a relatively short time of having been
uttered. As but one example, only 15 copies of the so-called
Pentagon Papers were printed, and one of those found its way to
the NY Times, with consequential results. The releaser did so as
an act of conscience.

The Manhattan Project was betrayed out of a similar act of
conscience, whether one agrees with the betrayal of confidence
or not.

In other words, a secret in and of itself is not self-containing. It's only
as good as the people sworn to keep it.

Since many secrets and dirty laundry have been revealed in one
way or another over the years -- CIA LSD experiments, DoD
radiation experiments, Viet Nam, the U-2, and so on -- odd,
isn't it, that after 50 years no one has blown the secret on the
bodies and craft recovered at Roswell in a meaningful, as
opposed to merely anecdotal, way?

Given the Viet Nam and Manhattan experience, we might have
expected at least one scientist -- driven by his conscience --
to have publicly spilled the beans on Roswell in the last 50
years. But we have nothing of the sort, unless one wants to
credit the MJ-12 documents as same.

And where were the latter sent? Not to the NY Times or
Washington Post to investigate, but to Jaimie Shandera, a
"ufologist" virtually no other ufologist had ever heard of at
the time.

I don't want to make too much of this double standard business,
but on the one hand we have people saying that this is the
highest secret in the land, security oaths were involved, death
threats made, and so on.

And then we have the spectacle of retired majors and generals,
etc., freely discussing what happened at Roswell to the first
ufologist to come calling as if it were little more than a July
4th picnic that was being bandied about.

Something doesn't make serious sense here, and I'm still
somewhat confused as to how proponents of a massive, ongoing
cover-up can have it both ways. DuBose, to cite but one example,
telling interviewers that Gen. McMullen ordered him to never
talk about it with anyone -- and then talking about it to anyone
who managed to find him.

Am I the only person losing my mind here? The biggest secret in
the history of the world suddenly revealed by all and sundry --
and all _anyone_ had to do was _ask_?

Berlitz's and Moore's The Roswell Incident was published in
1980, almost 20 years ago now. Wouldn't this have seriously
alarmed the powers that be with their fingers still on the cover
up trigger? Wouldn't they have paid a visit to Mssrs. Easley,
Exon, DuBose, and anyone else they could locate, even Marcel
himself, politely reminding them of the seriousness of the
matter and their security oaths, indicating that if any nosy
journalists came calling that they were supposed to toe the
party line and say that a weather balloon and radar reflector
had been recovered and nothing else?

Yet nothing of the sort happened over the course of a decade and
a half or more. With the Cosmic Watergate at risk and on the
line, the almighty Air Force, with all its vast resources,
simply sat there and did absolutely nothing. Nothing.

Call me a debunker, call me anything you want, but this scenario
simply doesn't make sense. It didn't make sense yesterday and it
won't make sense tomorrow.

Or the day after.

Dennis







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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 19:54:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:19:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:55:20 -0400

<snip>

>(That said, I'm not remotely convinced by Printy, who despite his
>>competence than the rest of us to decide these issues. He thinks
>Twining -- if an alien craft had really crashed -- wouldn't have
>said there was no recovered debris because making a false
>statement to his superiors would have been a violation of
>military law. Right -- and no military people ever lied during
>the Vietnam war, and the USA is a land of equal justice for all,
>where rich and poor get exactly the same defence when they're
>.but we're not going to resolve it with naive piety.)


All this argument about one general lying to another may well be
moot (i.e., useless). Really important subjects are discussed
directly between people. Furthermore, communications such as
letters which propose actions are often written AFTER the
important details have been settled by by direct verbal
communication. IN other words, a letter is likely to represent
the "hard evidence" of a consensus that was reached before the
letter was written. In this case, Twining could well have told
Shulgen directly, assuming Shulgen had a need to know, that
there was saucer debris, but that it could not be mentioned at
the Secret level and not even at the Top secret level to people
who had no "need to know". "Moreover," he might have said to
Shulgen, "my people (McCoy and others) have no need to know for
this information and they don't know about it. However, they are
responding to the sighting material you sent and will write a
letter for my signature which sets forth their understanding of
the situation. Naturally I will see to it that their letter
represents my point of view aside from the hard evidence. Also,
I plan to be sure that they include in the letter a statement
that they have no hard evidence."

Thus the letter would be lying in a sense by implying that there
was no hard evidence, but the write would not be lying (didn't
know of it) and General Twining would not have been lying to
General Schulgen since Shulgen would have known "the truth"
directly from Twining.

Obviously this is speculation, but the point is, the idea that
Twining wouldn't tell a lie in his letter is irrelevant: he
could "lie" in the letter while telling the truth through other
channels of communication.

I might point out that all of the important government documents
we have which set forth policy or actions (such as the
establishment of Projects Sign, Grudge, Blue Book) were likely
to be documentation of discussions which occurred before the
documents were written. Thus it may appear that General A has
written to General B a letter which contains information that is
not previouly known by General B (new information), but in fact
the substance of the letter was arrived at through discussion
between Generals A and B and then General A had one of his aides
write a letter that formalizes the information discussed by the
two generals.

One must always keep in mind that a paper trail is not the whol
story. A lot of information gets transferred, conclusions and
policies decided upon, etc. "off line." For this reason I have
long felt that the documents we have seen may be only a fraction
of the material potentially available..... somewhere. I would
like to see documentation of the discussions whic led to the
Twining letter, for example, the discussions between technical
people listed at the beginning of Twining's letter.







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   Sep > Sep 24

                              FOCUS Magazine UK

From: Roy Hale <roy_hale@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:02:54 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:32:40 -0400
Subject: FOCUS Magazine UK

Hi All,

For anyone out there, who is thinking on buying a copy of this
mag, they would be better off buying the 'Beano'.
[a British comic book --ebk]

I was laughing, at the great revealtion (_not_!) article on how
they were about to reveal the whole truth on the UFO subject. So
guys and girls if you really want to know the 'truth' about what
we have been seeing in the skies since time began, I suggest
you read this.

And remember folks once you have read this 'great truth' you can
all stop investigating our dear beloved subject, because it
seems that the larger scientists at focus have been playing
naughty games with us Ufologists by not telling us the whole
truth on the thousands of world-wide sightings.

I do wish they would have told me the truth sooner, then I could
have started research on how to breed the perfect Koi Carp. But
being the great scientists and universaly perfect journalists
I will let them off this time, and will start to take a
different look at my great grandad's airplane model collection,
thinking, "wow!", I and many thousands of people have been
witnessing these great men in their flying machines all the
time.

For those who dont know, Focus magazine is well known for being
very pro-skeptic which when looking at the UFO subject has
tended to enlist the help of the little green men, and the Avro
Car fans and the Stealth fans and the top secret super nuclear
powered fans but never good old Joe Public ufologist. (What
a biased world we live in sometimes, eh?)

So remember, if you want to finally stop investigating this
subject and really learn how to breed the perfect Koi Carp then
please purchase a copy of this 'science magazine', and who knows,
maybe we will now at long last be able to sleep safely in our
bed's at night knowing that there are a handful of journalist's
who have been witholding the true origin's of these strange
flying machines - which incidentally have been flying in our skies
before we were a twinkle in our parent's eyes.

Can I give up looking now they have told us the truth?

What do you think?

Regards

Roy..


A fully paid up member of the PRO-ETH Alliance:

                 "Proof By Perseverance"
                     Watch The Skies






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   Sep > Sep 24

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 18:25:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:15:39 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:30:17 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>But the same people who wouldn't talk to their own colleagues,
>and who presumably signed security oaths 'til death do them
>part, are now freely spilling their guts about same simply
>because some civilian UFO reasearcher has come calling, asking
>questions? Hey, so much for secrecy and security oaths! So much
>for death threats and the impenetrable government cover up.

>Now you tell me how _that_ makes sense, please.

>Dennis

I'll take a crack at it, Dennis.

The folks who kept their lips zipped did so at the time of the
event, when the fuss about security would have been at its
height.

The folks who talked did so many years later, when they felt,
variously, that nothing would happen to them, or that it was
high time the story came out. Most of them in any case were
civilians or relatively low-ranking military or ex-military
types. The people who were silent, in the '40s, were high
ranking and centrally located, in places like the Pentagon.

If you examine some of the Roswell testimony, you find people
talking about whether and why they should say anything. Their
comments cover the waterfront, and are, I'd think, what you'd
expect from human beings coping with a dilemma. Pappy Henderson,
according to his wife, talked because he'd read something about
the crash in the National Enquirer. That made him think the
whole thing was out in the open. (Which might not make sense to
a sophisticated newspaper reader, but why assume Henderson was
one?)

Edwin Easley was clearly bothered by his oath never to speak.
It's fascinating to hear the tape of his first interview with
Kevin. When he's asked about the crash he falls silent, and
finally says he can't talk about it. Later he expands on that,
saying he was sworn to secrecy.  But still he tries to help
Kevin, volunteering relatively harmless information (he suggests
other people Kevin might talk to). It's hard not to feel,
listening to him stay on the phone for 20 minutes or say when he
started by saying that he can't talk, that he's torn. He'd like
to tell someone what happened, but thinks he shouldn't.

Remember that, if the crash happened as advertised, this might
have been the biggest thing some of these people were ever
involved with. Imagine keeping a secret like that. It might not
be easy. I know Dennis doesn't trust the second-hand account of
Melvin Brown's alleged testimony, but Brown's daughter (whom
I've watched on video) does mention something consistent with
what I'm saying. She says that late in his life, his father got
obsessed by the crash, thinking that he'd kept the secret all
his life and now deserved some kind of compensation.

Back to Easley. As Kevin kept calling him, he revealed more and
more, but never very much. When he says that something
extraterrestrial crashed, he doesn't volunteer the information.
Kevin has to ask him point blank, and indirectly. The dialogue
was something like this: "If I thought that crash was
extraterrestrial, would I be on the right track?" "You'd be on
the right track." Again, that's consistent with someone who
wants to talk, but feels he can't, and strikes a balance by
speaking indirectly, and only when he's specifically asked for
something.

See, Dennis? That wasn't hard. There's no inconsistency here.

Greg Sandow







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   Sep > Sep 24

                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: A. J. Gevaerd <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 18:53:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:13:23 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


[A.J.'s Server has been bouncing mail again - he's
 missed much of the discussion on this topic.

 Anyone care to respond?

 ebk]


Hello Folks:

I am very disturbed...

I just received the amazing images of the alleged UFO crashed in
Russia, along with the info about the alien autopsy. I read
dozens of pages in the last few days, from many different sites
on Internet about it, specially in
http://members.tripod.com/~ufokgb/.

I am concerned with what I saw and learned. So I wrote to a lot
of friends in USA and Europe to ask for more info and, specially,
any confirmation of the authenticity of the referred material
that appeared on TNT September 13.
It is the same reason that makes me write to you.

What is confirmed and what is not about the whole story? Is it
for real and was it verified by anyone? Does anybody in this list
have any more info to provide.

I really appreciate any comments.

Thanks all.

A. J. Gevaerd
editor, Brazilian UFO Magazine
gevaerd@ufo.com.br







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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 19:54:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:21:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:30:15 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:40:02 -0400
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

><snip>

>>>Off-hand, I'd say you've got plenty to laugh about.

>>Relevant to Cavitt.

>>HAHAHAHAHA

><snip>


>Bruce:

>I gotta admit, you got me. Had to laugh myself. Now, does this
>mean the only thing you've got to say about Roswell has to do
>with Cavitt's remarks re same and nothing else?>

>Now I can see why Ragsdale, Anderson, Kaufmann, Rowe, Dennis,
>Montoya, the Anaya brothers, "pathologist" Jesse Johnson, camp
>cook Melvin Brown, and the Roswell Fire Department, among others,
>might not be such a laughing matter.

>When you think they're relevant, let me know.

>HAHAHAHAHA
<

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'll let the experts -yourself included-argue about Roswell.   I
got other, more physical things to keep me busy. Meanwhile I'll
leave you with a "joke:"

Why is reading Cavitt's testimony like a religious experience?














Because it's so holey!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

(the Joker fades off stage right... or is it left,,,,
uh, oh,,...., here comes the hook.....)
HAHAHAHAHAH






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   Sep > Sep 24

                 Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 20:41:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:19:52 -0400
Subject: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets


Roswell Photos Revisited to be Aired on Fox-TV Network....

Ron Regehr, Associate Director, MUFON Orange County and
well-known space/satellite engineer, and James Bond Johnson,
photographer of the Roswell "flying saucer" wreckage in 1947,
will be interviewed by Roswell Event media specialist David
Garcia on the Fox-TV Network on the "News at 10 o'clock" show
nationwide tonight, Wednesday, Sept. 23. The show will be
repeated on the Fox-TV Morning Show tomorrow, Thursday.
(Actually the interview was filmed during a four-hour taping
session today.)

The interview will include showing of symbols and other
anomalous objects identified by the international RPIT (Roswell
Photo Interpretation Team) in the famous Ramey office photos and
also unveil words identified in the "Ramey Message." Long the
subject of much speculation as to exactly what is contained in
the message held in Ramey's hands in each of the four pictures
of him taken by Johnson in Ramey's office on July 8, 1947, the
recent revelation by RPIT of part of the message will be
featured on the television show.

The Ramey Message is displayed in all caps on a telephone
message sheet with a cradle phone typical of the 1947 era as
logo and includes the words (so far positively identified): "AS
THE .... 4 HRS THE VICTIMS OF THE ... YOU FORWARDED TO THE ...
AT FORT WORTH, TEX. ... THE "CRASH" "STORY" ... FOR 0984
ACKNOWLEDGES ... EMERGENCY POWERS ARE NEEDED SITE TWO SW OF
MAGDALENA, NMEX ... SAFE TALK ... FOR MEANING OF STORY AND
MISSION ... WEATHER BALLOONS SENT ON THE ... AND LAND ... ROVER
CREWS ... SIGNED  ... TEMPLE"

Regehr and Johnson also are to present the RPIT findings to the
MUFON Orange County group on Wednesday night, Sept. 23 in Costa
Mesa, CA.









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   Sep > Sep 24

                         The Fort Worth Photographs

From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 07:58:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:55:46 -0400
Subject: The Fort Worth Photographs

Dear All,

A selection of new images from James Bond Johnsons Fort Worth
photographs. It is hoped these highlight the very many anomalies
to be found in theses images. Please be patient with this site if
it's slow, it's running as a background job on my own
workstation.

Included in the selection is the Ramey Paper with my own "make"
on it's content, check it out an image is there to download.

Follow the RPIT item link from:

http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/

Neil.

--
*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *
Neil Morris.       /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\
Dept of Physics.   1                                                 1
Univ of Manchester 0                                                 0
Schuster Labs.     1  Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES  1
Brunswick St.      0                                                 0
Manchester.        1                                                 1
UK.                \0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/
G8KOQ


             E-mail: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive->   http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/

*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *






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   Sep > Sep 24

                     UFOR: Oberg's Open Letter To CSETI

From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org>
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:54:12 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:58:00 -0400
Subject: UFOR: Oberg's Open Letter To CSETI

From: Blue Resonant Human <density4@cts.com>

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: OTHER gov't UFO secrets
From: jamesoberg@aol.com
Date: 26 Apr 1997 14:15:43 GMT

Open letter to CSETI:

I applaud CSETI's efforts to strip away the "government secrets
prosecution" barrier to the disclosure of people's stories about
UFO experiences and I fully support the call for a government
declaration that all legal constraints against disclosure be
dissolved. I've always felt that claims of fear of such
prosecution as an excuse by people not to "go public" was often
merely a gimmick not to have to take responsibility for the
authenticity of such stories, since as far as I've been able to
tell -- and through OMNI's "Project Open Book" we searched far
and wide for examples -- nobody has ever been arrested or
charged -- much less convicted and sentenced -- for actually
doing so.

But don't stop merely with legalizing disclosure of all -- if any
-- government secrets about "real UFOs". I believe there is a far
more valuable body of "secrets" that will help understand the
decades of UFO phenomena that the world has experienced. This
deals with government-related activities which directly or
indirectly led to public perceptions that UFOs might be real when
they weren't. Sometimes these actions were carefully orchestrated
in advance, sometimes they were localized impromptu ad hoc damage-
limitation tactics. But from my own experience, they seem to have
played a tremendous and widely unappreciated role in inciting and
enflaming public interests in UFOs while deflecting public
attention from real highly-classified government activities.

I'm referring to situations where government representatives --
officials, military officers, any employees -- used "UFO" as a
convenient camouflage for other official classified activities
(such as retrieval of crashed aircraft or nuclear weapons or
other objects), or used artificial "UFO stories" (in oral,
written, photographic, film, etc.) form as "tracers" in studying
the function of security safeguards and personnel psychological
responses, or used "UFO" as an excuse (either intended or
accidental) to cover-up improper, forbidden, or diplomatically
delicate activities (such as aviation incidents involving
dangerous accidental or deliberate close passes or intercepts of
civilian airliners, or overseas excursions of agents on
intelligence missions where deflection of local perceptions was
useful, or to conceal from the country of origin the possession
of foreign military hardware), or played pranks and jokes on
intended or accidental targets, or any other activity that the
government -- or any part of it -- wanted to keep hidden,
knowing that having it thought of as "UFO-related" would consign
it to the never-never- land of myth and nuttiness, thus keeping
mainstream media attention to a minimum. And it's worked!!

Please include such "UFO secrets" in your list of disclosure
demands, and ask that any government personnel involved in the
use (or misuse and abuse) of such practices be immune from any
government prosecution for the actions which led them to take
such measures. Once such immunity is verifiably granted, I have
my own list of people who have privately talked to me over the
years and who were involved in government activities leading to
a number of well-known "UFO cases", which can be released and
which can help understand where and how much of today's UFO
mythology originated.

This is a serious proposal deserving of serious consideration,
and promises immensely fruitful results.







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   Sep > Sep 25

                Chat with Jeroen Wierda and Philippe Piet van

From: Yvonne Hedenland <vonni_h@email.msn.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 03:29:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:44:28 -0400
Subject: Chat with Jeroen Wierda and Philippe Piet van


Saturday, September 26 at 4pm ET, Jeroen Wierda
president of Picard UFO Research International will
be discussing the content of his international Web
Page as well as ufology in general.

Jeroen's site contains something for just about anyone
interested in UFOs:articles, news, books, and more.
He asks anyone with proof of UFOs to contribute to his
site and he will get the information out, no matter what
the risk!  (PUFORI at www.pufori.org )

Our second guest is Philippe Piet van Putten from
Brazil, Philippe began saving UFO newspaper
clippings at age 12 and later became a member of
MUFON, APRO, NICAP, CUFOS, and the Ancient
Astronaut Society.  Philippe is the national director
of the Brazilian chapter of PUFORI.
http://www.pufori.org/brasil/index2.htm

In 1982 he formed the Brazilian Academy of Para-
sciences and started publishing periodicals. Philippe
has traveled the world investigating the paranormal
and has appeared on Brazilian radio and TV shows
as well has been published in national publications.
Philippe will discuss the state of ufology worldwide.

This chat is available at http://forums.msn.com/UFO
The Briefing Room chat can be accessed by any IRC
client. The chat server name is publicchat.msn.com
and the room or channel name is #briefing.










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   Sep > Sep 25

               Re: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 06:26:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:45:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets

At 08:41 PM 9/23/98 EDT, JBONJO@aol.com wrote:
>Roswell Photos Revisited to be Aired on Fox-TV Network....

<snip>

>Regehr and Johnson also are to present the RPIT findings to the MUFON
>Orange County group on Wednesday night, Sept. 23 in Costa Mesa, CA.

A report from someone who may have attended this presentation
would be of interest.

Steve





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   Sep > Sep 25

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:11:20 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:45:45 -0400
Subject: Re:  -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:38:38 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>And I'm sure there are others who kept it all to themselves and
>never told anybody, not even their spouse or children. People
>are different. Is that really so hard to understand?

>David Rudiak


Not at all, especially if you believe in a security oath (death
threats optional) that apparently doesn't count for a hill of
beans.

Or an Air Force, supposedly still engaged in the massive cover
up of the Roswell debris and bodies, allowing many of the major
players in the original drama to speak freely with anyone who
found their phone number, if they were so inclined.

Hey, you wanna talk about the Cosmic Watergate, the greatest
secret and cover up in the history of the world, go ahead! Do
what you think best. Originally, we had it classified higher
than the H-bomb, but what the hell, people are different.
Besides, it's been 40 or 50 years now, so say whatever you want
to whomever you want. Hey, you didn't take that security oath
stuff seriously, did you? Jeez, we were only joking!

You-know-who is always reminding us that these were all
hand-picked men capable bigod of keeping a secret when their
country asked them to.

It just strikes me as a dichotomy, that's all. But I do agree
that "People Are Different" would make for a nice recruiting
poster for the AF, CIA or NSA, or whoever it is that's still
actively covering up Roswell. Down at the bottom they could put
something like "Our security oaths last only as long as your
enlistment!"

You may be right that the ones who talked did so only because of
the long passage of time. But since they weren't interviewed
earlier, we'll never know. All we know generally is that some
appear to have talked the first time they were asked by anyone.
Marcel would be the perfect example. Friedman only learned of
him because he had already told others. Who did he first tell
and when? How many did he tell in all? We'll probably never
know. All we can surmise is that his story must have been spread
pretty wide for Friedman to bump into it on a sheer "accidental"
encounter.

Does this tell us something about Marcel? Of course it does. But
since it's politically incorrect to discuss Marcel here in
anything less than a prayerful, bowed posture, I won't.

Dennis






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   Sep > Sep 25

                      Re: Angel Hair Cases On The Rise?

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:03:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:44:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Angel Hair Cases On The Rise?


>From: Brian Boldman" <apav8r@netunlimited.net>
>Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 00:43:39 -0400
>Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:04:49 -0400
>Subject: Re: Angel Hair Cases On The Rise?


>>Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:57:58 -0700 (PDT)
>>To: UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>,
>updates@globalserve.net
>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Angel Hair Cases On The Rise?

>>>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>>>Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 11:06:37 EDT
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Angel Hair Cases On The Rise?

>>>>Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:13:51 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>To: UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Angel Hair Cases On The
>Rise?

>Hello Gentlemen, As someone that has actually studied AH for
>a while now, I'd like to add my 2 cents. First off, angel
>hair is not _one_ type of substance...it can be fine,
>clumpy, stringy, sticky, "hot to touch," radioactive, "cold
>to touch," "tinged yellow," sublimes, or does not sublime.

>The term "angel hair" is really a blanket description of a
>very rare phenomenon that constists generally of debris
>falling to earth after the passage of a UFO. (about 50% of
>the time)

<snip>

>>In that case, due to the huge amount necessarily emitted, its
>>appearance could outshine that of the UFO or would appear in the
>>daytime as a bright tail or streamer with diffuse irregular
>>edges.  Has that been reported in conjunction with the
>>angel-hair cases?

>Yes, many times. A case in point: Bouffioulx, Belgium,
>5/16/1953: "It was circular and shiny, and was surrounded by a
>whitish halo from which white particles fell. A curved trail
>hung down from the object."

Brian & List,

Regarding the case point: Bouffioulx, Belgium, please also
check this site:

http://www.ufo.no/artikler/hemsedal96-1.html

This might be a photo of the mentioned phenomenon, some 2-4 weeks
earlier (during Easter) in 1953 (Norway).

Who knows?


Regards
AWS







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                         Re: University's UFO Degree

From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:04:43 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:02:55 -0400
Subject: Re: University's UFO Degree


>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 20:24:31 +0100
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Sean Jones <Tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: University's UFO Degree

>Source: 'The Daily Telegraph' [UK] 18Sep98

>A University is launching Britain's first course on Aliens from
>outer space. Students will study extra-terrestrials, UFOs,
>intersteller travel and the search for life.

>The life in the Universe course forms part of an astronomy
>degree for students at Glamorgan University's school of Applied
>Science.

Hello Sean and List,

The Daily Telegraph's wording of 'Britain's first course on
Aliens' is a bit misleading as Totton College in Southampton,
England have been running a course for around two years now - NOT
a degree course though....wonder what astronomers make of it?

The following is taken from http://ufoinfo.com/ufocourses.html
and was last updated on 18th June 1998:


Totton College, Southampton, England.

The course allows students to study the UFO Phenomena and get
credit for producing work. At the moment it is split into six
separate units:

(1) Historical Perspectives on UFOs. This unit examines the role
of UFOs in history from ancient civilisations to modern day
accounts and explores similarities and differences between them.


(2) Theoretical Perspectives on UFOs. This unit examines the
possible theories behind what UFOs may be. This will include
exploring the ETH, geological phenomena, psychological phenomena,
meteorological phenomena and celestial phenomena. Students will
be able to analyse these theories and draw their own
conclusions.

(3) Research Methods in Ufology. This final unit allows students
to conduct practical work related to UFOs. This will include
skywatching, letter writing, questionnaire design for collecting
sightings data among others.

(4) Alien Abduction. This unit covers the historical progression
of the contactee and abductee era examining some well known and
not so well known accounts of purported alien abduction. Theories
of the origins of such experiences will be examined including
temporal lobe epilepsy, psychopathology, objectively real, sleep
paralysis etc.
Also included in this unit is an examination of the content of
abduction reports. Have they changed in recent years?

(5) The media and ufology. This unit examines the role of the
media as to exhibiting stereotypical images of UFOs and aliens.
Mediums that will be examined include magazines, books, TV
programmes, films, internet etc. This means that students will
have to sit through some old B-movies to examine the changing
role of the media in UFO perception!!!

(6) Primary Research in Ufology. This unit will allow each
student to produce a substantial piece of work on an area of the
UFO phenomenon that particularly interests them. The project can
either be a review of a particular concept or a more practically
based data collection exercise. The report will have to be
skilfully written up for potential publication and each project
has to be presented to an audience. This unit is by far the
bulkiest but allows the student to indulge in something they are
particularly passionate about.

All of the units can be studied up to the standard of A-Level
(although this course is by no means an A-Level!!!) and students
will be expected to produce written and practical work in order
to gain credits which are recognised in education!!!

Other things to note are:

* If a student completes all six units they have the equivalent
of an A/S Level in Ufology. This is the first in the UK - it is
an official qualification accepted in the UK educational
system!!

* For people who cannot attend lessons in Southampton, do not
despair. We can offer the course as a correspondence course where
the student receives detailed handouts, assignments and has
regular contact with one of the course tutors!!!

We have people doing this already and non-UK residents are very
much more than welcome.

The address to contact for more information on the course is:

Craig Roberts,
UFO Studies,
Department of Psychology,
Totton College,
Water Lane,
Totton,
Southampton,
SO40 3ZX.
England

Phone: (01703) 874874
E-Mail: croberts@totton.ac.uk

The other tutors are Ashley Bennette and Steve Rider. The course
moderator is Steve Gerrard from the Southampton UFO Group.
[END]

Regards,


John Hayes

jhayes@cableinet.co.uk
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com
UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/
Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/







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   Sep > Sep 25

                     Re: Mars Surveyor To Tighten Orbit

From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:43:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:59:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Mars Surveyor To Tighten Orbit

 Mars Surveyor To Tighten Orbit

 .c The Associated Press

PASADENA, Calif. (AP) -- The Mars Global Surveyor fired its main
rocket engine to descend toward the fringes of the Martian
atmosphere in an effort to tighten its orbit around the red
planet.

The 14.8-second engine burn Wednesday morning was successful in
using aerobraking to slow the spacecraft's speed. Engineers are
trying to narrow the spacecraft's large elliptical orbit into a
tight circle.

The $250 million mission, launched in 1996, began orbiting the
planet in September 1997. It was designed to map Martian terrain
for a Martian year, equivalent to 687 Earth days.

It was supposed to begin mapping the surface of the planet last
March, but a problem with a solar panel in October 1997 forced a
suspension of aerobraking and a delay in the overall mission
plan.

The rocket firing was designed to drop its altitude at the point
of closest approach from 106.5 miles to 79 miles. At the
farthest point of its elliptical orbit, the spacecraft is 11,083
miles from the planet.

Dips into the atmosphere should now occur every 11.6 hours, JPL
said. After five more months of aerobraking each orbit should
take less than two hours.

Mars is currently 213 million miles from Earth.

AP-NY-09-23-98 2248EDT

Copyright 1998 The Associated Press.The informationcontained in
the AP news report may not be published,broadcast, rewritten or
otherwise distributed withoutprior written authority of The
Associated Press.







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   Sep > Sep 25

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 21:53:07 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:36:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:13:50 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:55:20 -0400

>>(That said, I'm not remotely convinced by Printy, who despite his
>>status as a Chief Petty Officer in the Navy has no more
>>competence than the rest of us to decide these issues. He thinks
>>Twining -- if an alien craft had really crashed -- wouldn't have
>>said there was no recovered debris because making a false
>>statement to his superiors would have been a violation of
>>military law. Right -- and no military people ever lied during
>>the Vietnam war, and the USA is a land of equal justice for all,
>>where rich and poor get exactly the same defence when they're
>>arrested and put on trial. Please. This is a complicated issue,
>>but we're not going to resolve it with naive piety.)

>>Greg Sandow


>Greg,

>Thanks as always for your eminent civility.

>As I hope you're well aware, the Viet Nam lies were revealed for
>what they were within a relatively short time of having been
>uttered. As but one example, only 15 copies of the so-called
>Pentagon Papers were printed, and one of those found its way to
>the NY Times, with consequential results. The releaser did so as
>an act of conscience.

>The Manhattan Project was betrayed out of a similar act of
>conscience, whether one agrees with the betrayal of confidence
>or not.

>In other words, a secret in and of itself is not
>self-containing. It's only as good as the people sworn to
>keep it.

<snip>

>Yet nothing of the sort happened over the course of a decade and
>a half or more. With the Cosmic Watergate at risk and on the
>line, the almighty Air Force, with all its vast resources,
>simply sat there and did absolutely nothing. Nothing.

>Call me a debunker, call me anything you want, but this scenario
>simply doesn't make sense. It didn't make sense yesterday and it
>won't make sense tomorrow.

>Or the day after.

>Dennis


Because many people saw and felt the first nuclear explosion at
Trinity site in July, 1945, the base commander issued a press
release saying that an ammunition dump had blown up, but
fortunately nobody was injured.. It was a total lie.

I have the clippings. Sometimes it was necessary to lie for
national security interests. The government initially lied about
Gary Powers U-2 flight.. blown off course by the wind.. until
Khruschev provided the plane, pilot, and camera.

Let us not be naive.

STF





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   Sep > Sep 25

                       Double Pleasure In Planet Quest

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 01:05:04 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:15:27 -0400
Subject: Double Pleasure In Planet Quest


Source: MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.com:80/news/198947.asp

Go to the page for images and links!

Stig

*******

Double pleasure in planet quest

Two teams of researchers come up with new surprises

By Alan Boyle
MSNBC

Sept. 23 -- Two revelations about possible planets beyond our
solar system have astronomers seeing double: One team of
researchers has seen signs of planet creation in a double-star
system. Another team has found evidence of yet two more planets
- one of which appears to have an Earthlike orbit around its
parent star.

THE PLANET HUNT is only a few years old, but in the past few
months the pace of the quest has accelerated dramatically. So
far, several planets have been detected indirectly by analyzing
variations in the light from distant stars. Such variations,
scientists believe, are caused by the gravitational effect of
giant planets circling those stars.

A research team including two pioneers in the field, San
Francisco State University's Geoffrey Marcy and the
Anglo-Australian Observatory's Paul Butler, announced Wednesday
that they have detected two more planets using the technique.
That brings the number of extrasolar planets found so far up to
at least a dozen, the researchers said, with nine discovered by
Marcy and Butler. Scores more are likely to follow in the months
and years ahead.

At the same time, other planet-searching strategies are being
developed - including the use of powerful radio telescopes to
sense the dusty disks that are thought to spawn planets around
young stars. Another research team led by Luis Rodriguez of the
National Autonomous University in Mexico City announced that
they have found two such disks in what appears to be a binary
star system.

If multiple-star systems can indeed develop planets, that opens
up a whole new front in the planet search - and, eventually, in
the search for extraterrestrial life.

Here are further details about the day's revelations:

A PLANET IN THE RIGHT SPOT


Marcy, Butler and their colleagues were particularly intrigued
by a planet detected around HD 210277, a sunlike star in the
constellation Aquarius, 68 light-years from Earth. (One
light-year equals about 6 trillion miles.)

Based on an analysis of the star's gravitational wobble, the
planet appears to be about the size of Jupiter, with an orbit
just a little wider as Earth's. One year on this planet would
equal 437 Earth days, the researchers said.

"We had discovered planets that orbit much closer and much
farther from their stars than the Earth-sun distance," Marcy
said in a statement. "We wondered if nature rarely puts planets
at one Earth-sun distance. Now we know that such planets are not
rare."

Marcy said the next goal would be to find Jupiter-size planets
that have Jupiter-size orbits as well.

"What we're all about is discovering (planets) where evolution
might have gotten a toehold," he said. "Jupiter-sized planets at
a greater distance from their star would suggest a solar system
that could host a rocky Earthlike planet."

If no such worlds are found circling the hundreds of stars being
targeted by planet-hunters, that could lead to a different
conclusion.

"It might be the first sign that Earth is truly unusual and so
life may be rare," Marcy said.

The second planet appears to orbit HD 187123, a sunlike star in
the constellation Cygnus, 154 light-years away. The researchers
say this planet is also about Jupiter's size, but whirls only
about 4 million miles away from its parent star, well within
Mercury's distance from our own sun. Each "year" takes only
3.097 Earth days, the researchers said.

In both cases, the observations were made using the Keck
telescope in Hawaii. The planet with the Earthlike orbit is the
subject of a paper to be submitted to the Astrophysical Journal
Letters, while a paper on the close-in giant planet has been
accepted by Publications of the Astronomical Society of the
Pacific.


BINARY-STAR BONANZA


Not too long ago, the prevailing view was that the gravitational
interplay within multiple-star systems would tear apart any
planets before they were even born. But new observations appear
to show disks of dust - the suspected birthplace of planets =97
surrounding twin stars about 450 light-years away in the
constellation Taurus.

The latest findings were developed using the National Science
Foundation's Very Large Array radio telescope in New Mexico and
published in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature.

Rodriguez and his colleagues focused on a source of infrared and
radio emissions within a giant cloud of gas and dust where
sunlike stars are being born.

Observations of the source, known as L1551 IRS5, were made in
the 7mm wavelength using radio receivers built in 1993 and 1994
by the National Radio Astronomy Observatory. The resolution of
the source was 10 times as good as previous observations at
similar wavelengths, making out structures measuring seven times
as wide as the radius of Earth's orbit around the sun (that's
about 650 million miles).

For the first time, astronomers were able to see two swirling
disks of dust, presumably with a star at the center of each
disk. The disks appeared to be separated by slightly more than
the distance between our own sun and Pluto, the solar system's
outermost planet. Each disk was as wide as Saturn's orbit around
the sun.

Astronomers hadn't thought such disks could hold enough mass to
form planets, but the new results indicate otherwise.

"Each of these disks contains enough mass to form a solar system
like our own," David Wilner of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center
for Astrophysics said in a statement. "However, we don't think
these solar systems would be able to form outer, icy planets
like Uranus and Neptune, because of the small size of the dust
disks."

The stars might well develop hot planets that could be thrown
off into deep space due to the complex orbital mechanics of a
multiple-star system, astronomer Alan P. Boss of the Carnegie
Institute of Washington said in a commentary written for Nature.

Boss said such a process might explain the recent observations
of what appears to be a "runaway planet" - although he
acknowledged that the planet could be a "background star
masquerading as a planet."

Rodriguez said the theories spawned by the new observations
broadened the possibilities in the search for distant planets.

"Most stars in the universe are not alone, like our sun, but are
part of double or triple systems," he said, "so this means that
the number of potential planets is greater than we realized."





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   Sep > Sep 25

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswel

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:05:47 PDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:38:10 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswel


>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:43:25 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell
>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 05:27:56 +0100

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:12:48 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:48:12 +0100
>>Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:20:22 -0400
>>Subject:

>>>And what about the revelation in the October edition of the UK
>>>magazine 'Focus' that some sort of glider with attached balloon
>>>was being tested at the time?

>>>How many crash sites now? Eight?

>>>Of course if it isn't aliens nobody takes any notice - an
>>>indictment of Ufology if ever there was one.....

>>You folks in the UK seem to be lagging badly behind the US when
>>it comes to learning about screwball theories. Your glider with
>>with attached balloon was some theory first assembled by the
>>science editor of Popular Mechanics magazine in July 1997 for
>>the 50th Roswell anniversary. Of course, no evidence was
>>presented that there ever was such a thing, but it made for fine
>>bathroom reading.

>Not my theory mate. Just pointing out one fleeting mention of it
>in the article - not written by me but great stuff anyway.

>>Yes folks. It was an experimental Japanese Fugo-type spy balloon
>>with a Horten glider suspended underneath and manned by a
>>Japanese crew (the Japanese were very clever at miniaturizing
>>_everything_, even back then). The Japanese crew explained the
>>small bodies with the Oriental features.

>Well, that's _not_ what it says in 'Focus' and not what I have
>said - but who cares about misrepresentation?

>>Well, that covered most of the bases, no matter how preposterous
>>it was. Now our friend Tim Matthews is swallowing it whole
>>because it fits in his tight little box that all unexplained
>>UFOs are really secret military projects.

>Never said that and never will. Don't put people into convenient
>boxes. Dave, you're making it up.


G'day List,

Next we'll have some clown come out and say that the bodies were
really monkeys, shaved so that sensors would stick to their
skin, that were sent up for high altitude exposure tests, or
some other drivel. Doh!  Me and my big mouth - I just gave them
a good out!

Regards,
Leanne





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   Sep > Sep 25

                         More On Ramey Photo & Note

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:17:39 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:11:19 -0400
Subject: More On Ramey Photo & Note


Hi Errol,

Since your address is not included in Derrel's e-mail list and I
am sure I can share the e-mail message below with you and
others, here it is. Has anyone else tried to read the contents
of the "Ramey Note" in the past with any success as Ronald
Regehr and other team members claim to have had?

Nick



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:10:03 -0500
From: Derrel Sims <derrel@holman.net>
To: "'Regehr, Ronald'" <RONALD.REGEHR@Aerojet.com>
Subject: RE: Ramey Note

I AM SO PROUD OF YOU MY FRIEND...SO PROUD....KEEP ME POSTED..I
WILL LET YOU KNOW WHAT I UNCOVER IN THE OTHERE AREAS WE
DISCUSSED PREVIOUSLY....IT SHOULD BE A GREAT YEAR FOR
ROSWELL...DERREL SIMS


-----Original Message-----

From:   Regehr, Ronald [SMTP:RONALD.REGEHR@Aerojet.com]
Sent:   Thursday, September 24, 1998 3:29 PM
To:     fsphys@brunnet.net; decker@ufomag.com; Art
Cc:     Bond; Chris O'Brien; derrel; Dr. Bob; Karle; Marilyn Ruben; Neil Morris;
 Debbie; Ryan Wood; Roger; Gill, Steve; Bel
Subject:        Ramey Note

Hello my friends,

Things move too swiftly sometimes for me to keep up. As you
might be aware, several of us have deciphered much of the note
Gen. Ramey is holding in his hand in the infamous "Ramey/DuBose"
photo taken by James Bond Johnson over 51 years ago. The
"translation" was performed indendently at at least two
locations and achieved an outstanding degree of correlation.
Each team member worked from a 16 x 20 print made from the
original negatives available from the UTA archives. The file
from which I worked is a scanned image of solely the message and
is 821 megabytes (this from an approximate 1" x 3/8" image
size!). Because of the differing image intensities we were
required to vary the brightness and contrast of different areas
of the image in order to best resolve the individual characters.
Translation took 3 to 4 hours. Several factors assisted us.

*               First, it was a non-proportional type, meaning each
character and space occupied the same amount of space   (unlike
today's ever-popular proportional type);

*               Second, all the letters are upper-case; third we had
large-format images.

*               Third, today's equipment is sufficiently capable to
enable us to perform this task

Yesterday evening Bond and I presented the preliminary results
to an excited audience at MUFON Orange County's monthly meeting.
The highlight of the presentation was enabling the audience to
actually READ some elements of this hithertofore "hidden"
message. There was no doubt in anyone's mind that had Gen. Ramey
read this note BEFORE Johnson took his photos they would never
have seen the light of day and we would not have this vital clue
to enable us to solve one more element in the "Mystery of the
Century".

The message, as best we can determine to date, is:





       Cradle Telephone
            or
       Liberty Bell Symbol

                             [ Large Underlined Header ]

       [ Top Left ]
     [ Official Crest ]                                  [ handwritten
numerals ]
                                                                   15 33
                                                            ? time of
receipt ?




   1)  ....................................................... AS THE
                     ??                                          PLA KIF
(could this be PLANE WRECK?)
   2)  ........ 4 hRS THE VICTIMS OF.THE.DOA.REYK....FORWARDED TO YOU

   3)  ......... AT FORT WORTH, TEX.

   4)  .............. THE "DISK"
..............................L.......AT  0984 ACKNOWLEDGES









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   Sep > Sep 25

                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 20:24:51 PDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:44:37 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:13:23 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show

>From: A. J. Gevaerd <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Alleged UFO crash in Russia, KGB info
>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 18:53:49 -0500

>[A.J.'s Server has been bouncing mail again - he's
> missed much of the discussion on this topic.

> Anyone care to respond?

> ebk]

>Hello Folks:

>I am very disturbed...

>I just received the amazing images of the alleged UFO crashed in
>Russia, along with the info about the alien autopsy. I read
>dozens of pages in the last few days, from many different sites
>on Internet about it, specially in
>http://members.tripod.com/~ufokgb/.

>I am concerned with what I saw and learned. So I wrote to a lot
>of friends in USA and Europe to ask for more info and, specially,
>any confirmation of the authenticity of the referred material
>that appeared on TNT September 13.
>It is the same reason that makes me write to you.

>What is confirmed and what is not about the whole story? Is it
>for real and was it verified by anyone? Does anybody in this list
>have any more info to provide.

>I really appreciate any comments.

>Thanks all.

>A. J. Gevaerd
>editor, Brazilian UFO Magazine
>gevaerd@ufo.com.br


G'day A.J. & list,

I think that behind every good hack the hackers should leave a
clue or two for those trying to solve it. Now it may be purely
coincidental, but I may have found the odd clue or two. The
coincidence in this case being that the unfortunate names chosen
for two minor bit players have aspects to them that present
other meanings in english.

Namely:

O.A. Pshonkina  - the photographer

and

N.A. Sham  - the K.G.B. letter writer.

Perhaps they just couldn't help themselves (but it would be
wonderful) if all we doubters are proved wrong)   :-)

Regards,

Leanne Martin
Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia






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   Sep > Sep 25

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:50:42 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:05:23 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell
>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 18:25:14 -0400

>>Dennis

>I'll take a crack at it, Dennis.
>
>The folks who kept their lips zipped did so at the time of the
>event, when the fuss about security would have been at its
>height.

>The folks who talked did so many years later, when they felt,
>variously, that nothing would happen to them, or that it was
>high time the story came out. Most of them in any case were
>civilians or relatively low-ranking military or ex-military
>types. The people who were silent, in the '40s, were high
>ranking and centrally located, in places like the Pentagon.

>If you examine some of the Roswell testimony, you find people
>talking about whether and why they should say anything. Their
>comments cover the waterfront, and are, I'd think, what you'd
>expect from human beings coping with a dilemma. Pappy Henderson,
>according to his wife, talked because he'd read something about
>the crash in the National Enquirer. That made him think the
>whole thing was out in the open. (Which might not make sense to
>a sophisticated newspaper reader, but why assume Henderson was
>one?)


Greg,

Sometimes you're so sensible as to be downright scary! However,
since the CIA is paying my salary and dental...

Let's start with humans and human nature, which is what you do.
Anyone who's ever been a member of a carpentry crew, a
fraternity, or athletic squad, or merely worked in an office,
knows that probably 80% of what passes for conversation during
the day is something that might be called banter.

There is no compelling reason to think that the men and women
stationed at Roswell in 1947 were any different. I don't think
any of us envisions a base full of lip-zipped zombies walking
around for several days after the news of the recovery of a
flying disc made the local paper. So Henderson flies a plane
with a crate on it. A crewman asks Henderson, "What we got?"
Henderson says, "I don't know." Crewman says, "They didn't tell
you!" and then launches into banter, maybe gigging Henderson for
the next couple of hours, all the way to Ft. Worth, telling him
about the bodies he's "seen," which are now onboard.

Did it happen that way? I don't know. _Could_ it have happened
that way, as far as Henderson himself (and others) was
concerned? Of course (speaking in general terms, before Rudiak
responds.) To the best of my memory, Henderson didn't actually
see bodies, he was only told about them. And I'm not sure the
argument wouldn't apply anyway, if not to Henderson, then to
others.

Point is, Henderson believes he's flying bodies and responds
"truthfully" whenever anyone asks, or when he sees a newspaper
headline 50 years later referencing same. Yeah, I was there. I
flew that flight! And he's telling absolutely the complete truth
as he knows it. How many others are in a possibly similar
situation of repeating scuttlebutt? We don't know.

>Edwin Easley was clearly bothered by his oath never to speak.
>It's fascinating to hear the tape of his first interview with
>Kevin. When he's asked about the crash he falls silent, and
>finally says he can't talk about it. Later he expands on that,
>saying he was sworn to secrecy.  But still he tries to help
>Kevin, volunteering relatively harmless information (he suggests
>other people Kevin might talk to). It's hard not to feel,
>listening to him stay on the phone for 20 minutes or say when he
>started by saying that he can't talk, that he's torn. He'd like
>to tell someone what happened, but thinks he shouldn't.
>

This brings me to a major carp I might as well get out of the
way now: the absence of interview transcripts in any of the
major Roswell books. Maybe this was a decision on the part of
the various publishers, I don't know. All I do know is that it
leaves the reading public largely in the dark.

For example, in the Randle Report, p. 201, Easley is quoted as
saying, "Let me put it this way. That is not the wrong path."

In Conspiracy of Silence Randle quotes him as saying (p. 29),
"That's the right path. You're not following the wrong one."

Same sense, admittedly, but what does it say about Randle's
reliability as a reporter? Is he quoting two different audio
tapes? Is he even quoting?

(I'm quoting the above from another source; if they've failed
me, may saucer debris rain on their head and, yea, even on the
heads of their grandchildren. But the point about the absence of
full transcripts would still apply.)

>Remember that, if the crash happened as advertised, this might
>have been the biggest thing some of these people were ever
>involved with. Imagine keeping a secret like that. It might not
>be easy. I know Dennis doesn't trust the second-hand account of
>Melvin Brown's alleged testimony, but Brown's daughter (whom
>I've watched on video) does mention something consistent with
>what I'm saying. She says that late in his life, his father got
>obsessed by the crash, thinking that he'd kept the secret all
>his life and now deserved some kind of compensation.
>

And the idea of compensation doesn't raise any red flags with
you? Then you're at least as unsuspecting and forgiving as you
are otherwise sensible. Could it possibly be that Brown's
obsession had anything to do with cashing in on Roswell's
newfound popularity, the same way that Anderson and Corso, and
who knows who else, tried to do? Regardless of whether he
actually participated in anything unusual or not? After all, he
was there and we weren't. But who are we to argue with the camp
cook?

Nor the notion that history had come knocking on their
collective doors, with the underlying assumption that saying
nothing much happened wasn't likely to get you much notice? See
the sad saga of Corso, who apparently wasn't willing to play
second fiddle to anyone when it came to Roswell, even though he
wasn't even there.

Contrary to what some may think, it gives me no pleasure to draw
attention to a particular witness's character or motives. The
only reason to do so is because of the number of patent frauds
and exaggerators that _have_ been found out and exposed for what
they are. Military rank, in and of itself, is no yardstick of
veracity. Marcel is not a god by which all other lesser mortals
are to be measured, dependent on whether or not their accounts
agrre with his. If the Corso episode didn't teach us that, then
it didn't teach us anything.

>
>See, Dennis? That wasn't hard. There's no inconsistency here.
>
>Greg Sandow
>

Nothing is hard, given an agile mind and a bank account of
assumptions. But I still prefer Jethro Tull's (or Ian
Anderson's) observation that "nothing's easy."

Flute, please!

Dennis






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                              Filer's Files #38

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:18:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:30:06 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #38

Filer's Files #38-1998  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  MUFON Eastern Director,
September 25, 1998,   Majorstar@aol.com  609 654-0020

Sightings of UFOs are increasing world wide.  More evidence suggests some may
be classified government aircraft.  New startling photo interpretation of
Roswell photographs.

GENERAL RAMEY'S OFFICE PHOTOS REVEAL ROSWELL SECRETS

Ron Regehr, Associate Director, MUFON Orange County and well-known
space/satellite engineer, and James Bond Johnson, photographer of the Roswell
"flying saucer" wreckage in 1947, were interviewed by David Garcia on the Fox-
TV Network "News at 10 o'clock."  For Sept. 23, 1998.  The interview included
showing of symbols and other anomalous objects identified by the international
RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team) in the famous 8th Air Force office
photos.  Johnson took the famous photos on July 8, 1947, that show a message
held in General Ramey�s hand.  For fifty years the message was unreadable.
Now intensive study and new technology have revealed parts of the "Ramey
Message."  The Ramey Message is displayed in all caps on a telephone message
sheet.  There appears to be an official crest with a field of stars on a dark
background, a parachute, an arrowhead; and an aircraft. A logo of phone
typical of the 1947 era is also on the sheet.  (So far positively identified):

 "AS THE .... 4 HRS THE VICTIMS OF THE ... YOU FORWARDED TO THE ... AT FORT
WORTH, TEX. ... THE "CRASH" "STORY" ... FOR 0984 ACKNOWLEDGES ... EMERGENCY
POWERS ARE NEEDED SITE TWO SW OF MAGDALENA, NMEX ... SAFE TALK ... FOR MEANING
OF STORY AND MISSION ... WEATHER BALLOONS SENT ON THE ... AND LAND ... ROVER
CREWS ... SIGNED  ... TEMPLE"

Regehr and Johnson also presented the RPIT findings to the MUFON Orange County
group on Wednesday night, Sept. 23, in Costa Mesa, CA.  Editors note:  This is
a possible break through in the Roswell case.  It uses a government message to
prove a crash or crashes and victims, emergency powers and a safe talk story
to divert attention away from these areas.  It does not mention aliens, but it
does show significant Army Air Force actions and operations were being
conducted to hide some type of crashed object.  We can speculate it was a
classified military craft, a Soviet crash or perhaps even something alien.
Thanks to John Bond Johnson and Ron Regehir.

NEW HAMPSHIRE

LONDONBERY: On September 10, 1998, Dan H was driving on Mammoth Road when he
spotted a triangular shaped formation of three bright white lights just above
the trees.  At first Dan thought they belonged to aircraft landing at the
nearby Manchester Airport.  He realized that the craft was too low and moving
in the wrong direction.  He describes the lights as consisting of two high
lights and one singe light down lower giving the object the impression of
tilting down in the front.  The object suddenly jumped over to the left
without turning and seemed to stop and hover.  The witness described the
motion with a quick sweep of his hand inferring that it was nearly
instantaneous.  After this he lost sight of the object behind some trees.
Thanks to Greg St. Pierre and Errol Bruce Knapp.

NEW YORK

GRIFFISS AIR FORCE BASE:  Larry reports he saw a UFO on September 16, 1998, at
11:05 PM, while viewing a group of stars with his AN-PVS4 night vision scope.
"I noticed a bright high speed light flying past from west to east over the
former base.  It was faster than any aircraft I have ever seen and it was
definitely on a celestial course."  I had witnessed a similar light the week
prior, but dismissed it as an undisclosed secret aircraft.  This most recent
sighting baffled me, because of the way the light passed through my field of
view, slowed down and turned 180 degrees to parallel its previous course.  I'm
not looking for someone to tell me I saw a UFO.  I'm looking for answers to
questions I have concerning similar sightings and why they go unreported.
Thanks to Larry Clark: http://www.nymufon.org/reportform.htm -

WESTCHESTER COUNTY: CNI News editor, Michael Lindemann reported to local MUFON
investigators that a large triangular object was observed on Friday, September
4, 1998.  A 55 year old witness viewed an unusual aerial object from the
terrace of his home in Hartsdale at 10:05 PM..  He heard a low rumble and saw
a huge triangular shape softly lit or glowing in an aluminum color.  The
object seemed to be lit from lights on the ground.  Although, there did not
seem to be sufficient light coming from the ground to illuminate an object in
the sky.
The witness grabbed a pair of binoculars but was unable to observe the craft
in greater detail.  The huge craft was flying with its flat edge forward
rather than a point forward.  It was the size of a fist at arm's length
indicating it was very close to the observer or very large.  It was moving at
a very slow speed inferring that it might be a lighter than air craft.  The
UFO had several lights including a bright red light which seemed to be at the
trailing end of the craft.  The craft had a large blue strobe light and
several white lights at various locations.  Editor's Note: We suspect these
craft are classified aircraft carrying large radar arrays similar to the
patented Aereon design.  Similar UFOs have been reported over France in recent
months.

NEW JERSEY

NEWARK/NEW YORK CITY:  Mark Hobbs reports that a close friend saw a UFO from
her TWA aircraft flight at midnight on August 10, 1998.  While flying into
Newark from Portland, Mrs. C. said, "Looking out the window behind the plane,
I saw we were being followed by a row of yellow looking lights."  I remarked
to my husband that we were being followed much too closely by another plane,
but I didn't think too much about it."  However after landing, we were in a
taxi going to Manhattan, when the taxi driver said, "Did you see the yellow
lights in the sky, scary huh?"  I said, "I had but I thought it was a plane."
As the time was now 2:30 AM, we didn't ask any more questions, I wish I had
now.  Thanks to Mark Hobbs Mark@hobbs01.globalnet.co.uk and Larry Clark New
York MUFON www.nymufon.org

WANAQUE RESERVOIR:  On Sunday, September 13, 1998, Mike reported that he and
his friend Ryan Trimmer saw UFOs while sitting near the reservoir.  Six
objects were seen between 6:30 and 7:10 PM.  One UFO showed up right next to a
Cessna aircraft, then hovered for 20 seconds before disappearing.  Many UFOs
just showed up for a few seconds and then left.  Two more moved along slowly
and kept moving for 3 to 4 minutes before slowly fading out of sight.  Both
faded out in the same area.  Several of the objects accomplished the same
maneuvers.  The last one we saw was the same as the first one we saw.  It is
my suspicion that these may be the same UFOs fading in and out every few
minutes.  You really should take a trip up there especially around sundown,
since they seem to really come out at that time. Thanks to Mike MATHrk101

OHIO:

MEDINA: While driving along Route 252 on September 4, 1998, a motorist noticed
three individual lights in the sky at 11:30 PM.  Upon closer approach, the
motorist discerned that the lights were connected to a very large black
triangular object.  The motorist chased the UFO and drove faster to get a
closer look.  The object was moving very slowly eastward and not making any
sound as the motorist drove came to the top of a hill in Medina County.  He
saw two cars stopped by the side of the road watching the object that was only
150-yards overhead.  "I pulled over next to the Honda and asked if he knew
what it was?  He did not!  The object 'flashed a bright blue flash' of light,
similar to the flash on a camera, at which point all the spectators began to
leave.  Upon reaching home he learned his aunt, a cousin and a friend had all
seen the craft in recent days.  Three nights later, on September 7, he saw the
object again at 11:30 PM although this time it was farther away.  This
sighting was reported to New York MUFON researcher Larry Clark through his on-
line reporting system.

WEST SALEM:  A UFO was sighted by campers on August 29, only twenty miles
southwest of Medina in north central Ohio.  The campers saw a fiery UFO
hovering at a low altitude.  One female saw a peculiar cluster of four yellow
lights.  The object "flashed" several times, perhaps as many as five flashes.
After each flash, a long tail of fire like a jet's exhaust was seen to shoot
out the back of the object.  Thanks to Kenny Young http://home.fuse.net/task/
and Larry Clark.  NY MUFON.

INDIANA

WARSAW:  Greg Shafer and a friend were riding motorcycles on a back road and
stopped for a smoke on July 15, 1993, at 01:00 AM.  After a few minutes they
saw a light coming toward them.  It was the size of a school bus and had four
lights all the way around it.  The funny thing is that it made no sound at
all.  It was so low we could have thrown a rock and hit it.  We still not sure
what it was, but it is unexplainable.  Thanks to: Greg Shafer: 3793 Viking
Drive, Mentone, IN 46539. BLSSHAFER@kCONLINE.COM

CHILE:

MUFON's International Director, Antonio Huneeus reports,  "I have an official
letter from the Minister of Defense stating for the record what is the Chilean
government's policy vis-a-vis UFOs."  There was also a recent informal meeting
between CEFAA (the Aeronautical UFO Committee) and Chilean civilian
ufologists, where the first preliminary reports and statistics were presented
by Chilean Air Force Gen. (Ret.) Ricardo Bermudes (director of CEFAA and the
Technical School of Aeronautics), which shows a good start for openness and
cooperation with private investigators.  One of my sources is supposed to sent
me an audio tape of the meeting and copies of whatever documents were
presented.  I'll probably translate the Defense Minister letter, which I will
pass onto your newsletter."  There have been a steady stream of UFO reports
over Chile during the last few months.  Unlike our government they take these
craft seriously.  Thanks to Antonio Huneeus, huneeus@idt.net.

RUSSIA

Kirilov Denis reports that he saw a UFO a couple years ago in September.
During the evening my mother and I went for a walk.  At that moment we saw a
big red sun in the East, but it was evening so it could not have been the sun.
It was flying under the Rostov Voroshilovski Bridge.  We saw the bright light
for four hours and finally went home.  After several days, I was at that place
again and but did not see the sun like object again.  I do not know what it
was.  Thanks to Rostov on Don.  dkirilov@uic.rnd.runnet.ru.

HYPERSOAR HYPERSONIC AIRCRAFT

There's a new design for a hypersonic aircraft which scientists say could
travel between any two cities on Earth in less than two hours by literally
"skipping" across the atmosphere.  The U.S. Department of Energy's Lawrence
Livermore National Laboratory announced that the new aircraft design, dubbed
"HyperSoar," could fly at about 6,700 mph, or Mach 10, and would experience
far less heat buildup on its airframe than previous designs.  "We believe we
have developed a design that not only addresses the primary issues in building
hypersonic aircraft, but does so in a way that creates a number of different
uses for HyperSoar, thereby helping offset its development costs," said
Preston Carter, the Livermore aerospace engineer who developed the HyperSoar
concept.  Carter said the key to HyperSoar would be its "skipping" motion
along the edge of Earth's atmosphere, much as a rock is skipped across water.
After ascending to roughly 130,000 feet, just outside the atmosphere, the
aircraft would turn off its air-breathing engine and coast back to the
atmospheric edge.  There, it would quickly fire its engines again and "skip"
back into space.  "A commercial flight from the Midwestern United States to
Japan would require about 25 skips to complete the one-and-a-half-hour
journey.  Passengers aboard the HyperSoar aircraft would not get quite the
smooth ride that today's commercial airline passengers enjoy.  Passengers
would feel 1.5 times the force of gravity at the bottom of each "skip," and
weightlessness at the top.  "The average passenger would probably put up with
the slight roller coaster motion if it gets them from San Francisco to Tokyo
in less than two hours, rather than 10 1/2."  The HyperSoar concept would
power the aircraft with normal, air-breathing engines rather than rockets, and
the time the aircraft spends in space could sharply cut heat buildup on the
frame -- which has been a major drawback in previous hypersonic aircraft
design.  The Livermore group, which estimated that it would take a total
investment of almost $500 million to research and built a one-third scale
flyable prototype of the HyperSoar, said the aircraft would quickly prove its
value.  HyperSoar could also benefit the military, the researcher said, noting
that it would enable speedy military strikes "from an altitude and at a speed
that defies all current defensive measures."  Finally, the scientists proposed
that HyperSoar could prove a boon to the space program as the first stage of a
two-stage launch process, moving objects to just outside the Earth's
atmosphere from which point then can be guided into their final orbits.
"Research shows this approach will allow approximately twice the payload-to-
orbit as today's expendable launch systems for a given gross takeoff weight,"
Thanks to Reuters News Service 9/10/98 http://www.nandotimes.com.

AIR FORCE ENGINEER'S RESPONSE TO SECRET DISC AIRCRAFT

WRIGHT PATTERSON:  Regarding your Filer's Files #37, Roswell Crash May Have
been a US Built Aircraft.  I was an electrical civilian engineer at Wright-
Patterson AFB, Ohio for over thirteen years and worked on many Advanced
Aeronautical Systems Development Programs  including the B-2, in the
survivability analysis area  With the exception of the following two stories,
the rest of my comments are purely personal conjecture on my part.  The First
Story is a secondhand account: "At a retirement luncheon around 1992, for the
chief of engineering of Aeronautical Systems Development, a plaque was
presented to him with small models of all the programs he worked on for over
thirty years.  Three of the models were saucer shaped.  Yes, it could have
been a joke.  What was interesting was his reaction to the plaque...he was red
faced and furious!"  The second story is a firsthand account:  "Around 1993, a
fellow engineer showed me an official UNCLASSIFIED photograph from British
intelligence taken by two Scottish hunters in the UK.  It showed a Harrier in
the foreground and a clear image of a disk in the background.  What is
interesting is that British intelligence was circulating the photo through the
US intelligence and development communities for the specific purpose of
finding out if the disk was a US development program?  About a month later,
this engineer told me that British intelligence said that the disk was one of
theirs, and to drop it!  Talk about the right hand not knowing what the left
hand is doing."

The following is Unofficial Personal Commentary/Conjecture/Background:  At the
risk of sounding heretical to the UFO community, I tend to agree with the view
that many UFO sightings are advanced aeronautical systems development
programs.   Although, there are many valid UFO sightings of interdimensional
origin, many sightings are simply advanced development programs of terrestrial
origin.  The Third Reich's Viril Society developed vehicles with advanced
propulsion systems prior to WW 2.  I suggest reading: "The Black Sun" by Peter
Moon.  Immediately after the war, a highly classified compartment of operation
Paper Clip was used to evaluate these systems.  As you know, the purpose of
Paper Clip was to assess German technology and was, to some extent, used as a
cover like project Bluebook.  Curiously enough, I personally visited a federal
records center in St. Louis in 1984, and spent two days pouring through
thousands of declassified Paper Clip documents and found references to much
information still classified and/or missing.  One possible reason Hitler did
not mass produce and deploy aeronautical systems with advanced propulsion
during the war is that the Germans did not have access to large amounts of the
rare materials needed for full scale production.  Even the prototype vehicles
could only carry small payloads of conventional weapons or personnel, so they
were of little military value.  They were used occasionally for espionage
activities.  Hence a greater priority was placed on developing nuclear
weapons.  This is why long range conventional bombers never got past the
prototype stage.  Hitler was waiting for the development of the atomic payload
for the advanced propulsion vehicles or long range rockets.  As a partial
result of Paper Clip, Area 51 and a sister facility in the USSR was
established to research, develop, and test the advanced German technology.
Much of this German technology has been integrated into the advanced
aeronautical systems that are deployed today and passed off as "UFOs."

Today, many of the futuristic vehicles of terrestrial origin carry advanced
directed energy weapon technologies such as sonic, laser, and rf capabilities
for biological system disruption and target hard kill.  They also have
stealthy characteristics using broad band holographic technology to easily
"cloak" or conceal and/or present false targets.  Conventional aerodynamic
performance is not very important since advanced propulsion is the primary
factor that determines overall system performance.  Separately, in the case of
conventionally powered flying wings that are inherently unstable, avionics
controls flight dynamics and conventional propulsion thrust vectoring are used
for stable flight.

As far as visitations from extraterrestrial or interdimensional origin, higher
dimensional beings may visibly materialize and dematerialize at will using
light vehicle technology.  They account for many of the so-called "orbs of
light" sightings and have no need for dense material objects for
transportation.  They are harmless and have only the purest intention to help
us each evolve spiritually.  The main point I wish for you to consider is
that, regardless of the ultimate extraterrestrial or interdimensional origin
over all history, I feel that there is a good possibility that many (possibly
not all) UFO sightings are classified advanced development programs.  These
programs are extensive, have a hidden purpose or agenda, and directed by
humans.  Over time, it will be interesting to see how the evidence unfolds.

If you are asking me where the National Security Agencies build, store, and
service these aircraft, I can't tell you that.  If this information were KNOWN
*and* officially ADMITTED the UFO phenomena would NOT be a phenomena.  These
human built aircraft, and especially the technology that is utilized in these
aircraft is and has been Classified Information.

If contemporary alien visitation is FALSE, then it means a great deal to
finding and disclosing the TRUE human owners and disclosing the technology of
the UFO's that have been classified for 50 years.  This would also mean a
great deal to the so called "alien abductees," and possibly a serious reasons
why humans would abduct humans, and maybe some retribution and compensation.
It would also mean a great deal to "our" human culture, in the technological,
spiritual, economical, facets of life on this planet, as technology that has
been suppressed for 50 years is disclosed, and shared with all.  Do you care
that the technology that is utilized on some of these human designed and built
UFO crafts, use physics that can change the socioeconomic structure of this
planet??  Where "virtually" free-energy and "anti"- gravity like technologies
has been suppressed for at least 50 years, in which the MANY MANY sightings of
these human designed and built crafts are directly, or covertly blamed on
aliens.  Thanks to a USAF Wright Patterson Engineer. (Name held by request.)

FREE REAL ESTATE RELOCATION SERVICES:  HELP UFO RESEARCH

As a special aid to our readers, we can help you obtain the best real estate
experts in your area at no cost to you.  We provide free relocation
information and consulting services from the largest and most respected firms.
If your planning to sell or buy a home and would like a top flight real estate
agent give me a call at 609 654-0020 or e-mail me at Majorstar@aol.com.

Filer's Files Copyright 1998 by MUFON EASTERN DIRECTOR all rights reserved.
Readers may post items from the Files on their websites or in newsgroups
provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the
date of issue in which the item first appeared.
Send your letters to George A. Filer at Majorstar@aol.com.  If you wish to
keep your name confidential please so state in your E-mails.






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   Sep > Sep 25

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:47:53 PDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:41:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:44:04 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:13:50 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:55:20 -0400

<snip>

>Something doesn't make serious sense here, and I'm still
>somewhat confused as to how proponents of a massive, ongoing
>cover-up can have it both ways. DuBose, to cite but one example,
>telling interviewers that Gen. McMullen ordered him to never
>talk about it with anyone -- and then talking about it to anyone
>who managed to find him.

<snip>

Dennis & List,

'Never' appears to be an extremely fluid concept for a lot of
people as a recent episode here (Oz) has taught us.

We have had the misery of our elected leader pushing a new tax
on in the upcoming election - in the last election he ran a
winning campaign on the promise to "Never Ever" introduce this
particular tax. He won resoundingly. He now looks to lose
resoundingly.

Back to the point - he now very vigorously defends his use of
'never ever' to mean one elected term. (We have certainly sunk
to new low.) So does a military 'never' have have movable
guidelines? Is it only in the mind of the perceiver?

Who knows what lurks in the heart of men? The shadow knows!
But I have certainly given up.

Regards,
Leanne





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   Sep > Sep 25

                       Re: The Fort Worth Photographs

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 20:59:59 PDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:09:28 -0400
Subject: Re: The Fort Worth Photographs


>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:55:46 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: The Fort Worth Photographs

>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 07:58:18 +0100
>From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>To: Ufo Updates List <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: The Fort Worth Photographs

>Dear All,

>A selection of new images from James Bond Johnsons Fort Worth
>photographs. It is hoped these highlight the very many anomalies
>to be found in theses images. Please be patient with this site if
>it's slow, it's running as a background job on my own
>workstation.

>Included in the selection is the Ramey Paper with my own "make"
>on it's content, check it out an image is there to download.

>Follow the RPIT item link from:

>http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/

>Neil.


Neil & List,

I fail to see any great reason for analysing these photos, save
proving that it is/isn't Mogul wreckage. After all, if it was such a
top secret project I am sure they wouldn't allow photos of Mogul to
be taken in this manner - so they throw in some old baloon scraps and
say "Sorry, we slipped up."

Obviously the material in the photos can't even support its own
weight let alone encased passengers. The truth lies elsewhere.

Regards,
Leanne





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   Sep > Sep 25

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:00:38 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:35:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:29:43 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>> From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>> Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:55:20 -0400

>>> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:28:57 -0500 (CDT)
>>> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>> From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>>> Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


The notion that Haut put out the release on his own is absurd as
anyone who has spent time with him and his wife discussing these
matters, as I have , would know. Don't forget he was a
bombardier on 35 missions over Japan in WW 2. He dropped the
instrument package just before the explosion of one of the 2
atomc bombs tested at Operation Crossroads in l946. There was no
admonition. How in the world could he have made the release
after hearing the FW identification? More research by
proclamation..

And don't forget the debunkers still haven't explained how the
wreckage was found "last week " could have been a Mogul found
June 14 and left in all its splendordor by a sheep rancher.

If there had been only one balloon as decribed by Story Changer
Cavitt, then it would have been what was brought into Roswell by
Brazell and there would have been no reason for Marcel to go to
the crash site. What convoluted nonsense especially when we
can't ignore the testimony of Judd Roberts, Frank Joyce, Loretta
Proctor, other Brazell neighbors, his son etc.. all given long
before Roswell became a household name. Mogul doesn't fit and
all the nasty attacks won't make it fit.






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   Sep > Sep 25

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:25:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:18:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:13:50 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>As I hope you're well aware, the Viet Nam lies were revealed for
>what they were within a relatively short time of having been
>uttered. As but one example, only 15 copies of the so-called
>Pentagon Papers were printed, and one of those found its way to
>the NY Times, with consequential results. The releaser did so as
>an act of conscience.

>The Manhattan Project was betrayed out of a similar act of
>conscience, whether one agrees with the betrayal of confidence
>or not.

People who betrayed these secrets knew where they could go for
support. Daniel Ellsberg, who leaked the Pentagon Papers, could
count on a massive anti-war movement. Klaus Fuchs and others who
leaked atomic secrets could count on the Soviet Union. The wild
and wacky world of UFOs is a slender reed, by comparison.

<snip>

>Since many secrets and dirty laundry have been revealed in one
>way or another over the years -- CIA LSD experiments, DoD
>radiation experiments, Viet Nam, the U-2, and so on -- odd,
>isn't it, that after 50 years no one has blown the secret on the
>bodies and craft recovered at Roswell in a meaningful, as
>opposed to merely anecdotal, way?

That's an issue well worth discussing. One thought I've had is
that what Dennis describes might not be that easy to do. Does
anyone remember Howard Blum's book "Out There," and in
particular the introduction, in which Blum describes a
conversation with Seymour Hersh, a veteran muckracking reporter
who deals with national security affairs?

Blum was writing about an alleged secret UFO study group at the
Pentagon (don't run out and buy the book; the people in this
group didn't know a thing). He wanted Hersh's take on the whole
thing, and (if I remember correctly) some leads and some
confirmation. Hersh's first reaction was to scoff, because the
subject was UFOs.

Now imagine you're someone with substantial information about a
b-i-g UFO secret, and you want to leak it the proper way. You
don't want to go to some flea-bitten UFO researcher. You don't
want to be on tabloid TV. You don't want to find a ghostwriter
to concoct a totally implausible book. Instead, you want to go
to the NY Times, documents in hand, ready to work with their top
reporters to prove that the secret really exists.

So you call the newsroom, and ask for Seymour Hersh. You get him
on the phone (not at all implausible; remember that reporters
depend on leaks and sources, so they'll talk to all sorts of
people.) You mention UFOs, and he starts laughing at you. He's
too busy for that kind of nonsense, he says, and hangs up the
phone. Media people, in my experience, are skeptical to the
point of derision.

Dennis asks why nobody has ever leaked Roswell secrets in a
plausible way. One reason mgiht be that the plausible ways don't
work, unless someone has the enterprise to go out and call his
or her own press conference, documents in hand. And many leakers
won't want to do that. It's too exposed. Your most likely leak
is someone who doesn't want their name used. (I just had one
like that, someone entirely respectable who has evidence that
one of America's best-known musicians doesn't actually write the
music that's performed under his name.)

That kind of leaker -- and I repeat, they're the most common --
needs to work with a substantial journalist, who can uncover
other evidence and other leaks. For whatever it's worth, ufology
has had numerous leaks of  that kind. Sure, they're hard to
evaluate, precisely because they're anonymous. (I'm thinking,
for instance, of the doctor who provided Leonard Stringfield
with information about an alleged alien autopsy.) But they're
also numerous. My own journalistic experience leads me to think
that anonymous leakers would be more likely than people willing
to go public. So the many frustrating anonymous alleged leaks of
the alleged UFO secret are, if you ask me, exactly what you'd
expect if the secret were real.

And if they tell their stories only to  ufologists -- that also
makes sense to me. Where else would they go?

>Am I the only person losing my mind here? The biggest secret in
>the history of the world suddenly revealed by all and sundry --
>and all _anyone_ had to do was _ask_?

Not surprising at all. Tim Weiner, a crack national security
reporter for the Washington Post and, now, the NY Times, has a
book on the Pentagon black budget. (I've forgotten its name,
sorry.) One lesson I gleaned from it is that secrets _are_ kept,
until someone asks about them. If Congress or the press gets
interested, the secret might be out in no time. If there isn't
that kind of interest, the secret will go on being secret.
Congress and the press are _not_ interested in UFOs.

Odd fact -- that, to my knowledge, no major news organ -- no big
newspaper, no newsmagazine, no respectable TV news show -- has
done a story on why people believe in the Roswell crash. That
is, few if any respectable reporters have shown any interest in
looking at the evidence, even if their story wasn't the
controversial "Did an alien spaceship really crash?" but instead
the much more manageable "Why do people believe it did?"

This strikes me as just plain weird. Everybody knows about
Roswell, but when I read about it in the NY Times or Time
magazine, all I see is blather about paranoia, fear of the
millenium, and the need for a new religion. Nobody asks about
the evidence, even to dismiss it. When the Air Force issued its
Mogul report, the Times ran the story on the front page. The
reporter printed the Air Force story without questioning it,
and, if I remember rightly, interviewed Colonel Weaver, who'd
been responsible for it. He didn't call any of the Roswell
investigators to get their take. No matter how credulous he
thought they were, this was shockingly bad journalism.

You'd expect something like that when pedophiles are arrested --
the requirement for balance doesn't go _that_ far. Nobody
expects you to call the National Pedophilia Society for a
defense of sex with children.But the Roswell crash? Are Roswell
researchers so disreputable that the guy didn't feel he had to
make the kind of phone call that, in nearly any other story,
he'd be required to make?

Like I said, this is weird. Or rather it demonstrates a truth
about the media  -- they don't take UFOs seriously. A few years
ago, I asked Kevin Randle if any mainstream journalists had ever
called him to find out what the evidence for the crash might be.
He said none had -- even when the story became national news.

Maybe, if there really is a big UFO secret, somebody did try to
leak it -- and Seymour Hersh hung up on her.

Greg Sandow






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   Sep > Sep 25

                      Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 23:09:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:15:06 -0400
Subject: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk

Hey, all.

After reviewing a variety of articles and websites, the story I
get about the Santilli Roswell film is as follows: The film was
shot by an Army cameraman in a hurried state using a standard
issue Bell and Howell wind-type 16mm camera under normal and low
lighting. Some of the film was processed right away and is
currently under "top security" lock and key by the government.
The balance of the film (approximately 25 reels) required
special "push" processing due to the low lighting and was kept
separate by the cameraman. Changes in command as the Airforce
took over ufo investigations allowed the cameraman to "slip
through the cracks" and keep the processed reels. Later, he sold
the films to Santilli where they then ended up on national
television amid much debate, yadda, yadda, yadda...

Amazingly, there still seems to be those that believe the film
is real. I can guarantee that it isn't. Here's why:

If the cameraman is to be believed, the autopsy footage was shot
under low light resulting in the need to have the film "push"
processed. For those unfamiliar, this means that the film was
underexposed during the shooting and then processed longer than
normal to help bring out the latent image. This is supposed to
account for the tell-tale grainy look of the film. If this is
true, then why is most of the film OVER exposed? I've been a
professional cinematographer for 20 years and I can assure you
that push processed film will appear properly exposed, at best,
with occasional patches of underexposure but never overexposed.

But why should the film be underexposed in the first place?
Light bulbs are THE cheapest thing that the military would need
to provide for such an important event. Did they really draw the
line for such an acquisition? I picture a high level meeting
where the line items are approved:


"Armed escort?"
"check"
"Personel carriers?"
"check"
"Security?"
"check"
"Alien containment vessels?"
"check"
"Cover story in place?"
"check"
"Surgical team on stand by?"
"check"
"Quaranteen facility?"
"check"
"Documentation Cameraman?"
"check"
"Film?"
"check"
"Light bulbs?....Uh, light bulbs?"
"Sorry, General, it's not in the budget."

"Oh...Well...That's okay. We'll just underexpose the most
important piece of cinema in history and overprocess it later to
make the image really grainy and soft."

"Good idea! Besides, push processing is SO much cheaper than
additional light bulbs."

"Uh...Couldn't we borrow a couple of lamps from some of the
other offices on the base?"

"Are you kidding, man? We'd need another acquisition form. This
project is too important to waste time going through channels!"
"Of course, sir. How silly of me..."


In addition, the type of camera used wasn't a "reflex" type.
That is, there was no way to view directly through the taking
lens. Therefore, these cameras were fitted with fixed wide angle
lenses, usually around 10mm, to provide a field of view wide
enough to frame the subject despite the lack of accurate
"targeting". Even if the aperture were wide open (which surely
it would be if operating under low light) a 10mm lens would
still allow proper focusing from about 3 inches to infinity. So
how come much of the image is out of focus?

Because it's fake.

The only correct thing about the Santilli Film is the emulsion.
It would be a B&W reversal and not a negative as some people
have suggested.

The cameraman may be the real deal, maybe not. I'm sure there is
an authentic film in some government vault, rotting away. But
the Santilli film isn't it. At best, it might be a
reconstruction of what the cameraman remembered shooting long
ago. Who knows? Maybe the  "film" Santilli bought from him was
unused B&W stock from that time period. I've shot B&W film dated
as old as 1958. It processed up just fine. At worst it might
come out soft and grainy...

Hmmmmm......

Later,
Roger Evans





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   Sep > Sep 25

               Re: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:37:26 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:11:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets

Hi all -

I was sitting here listening to the Oldies station, working on a
project and it suddenly dawned on me that lots of people on this
list have ordered the Fort Worth photographs in all their
magnificent 16x20 splendor. Should be possible to duplicate the
results of Dr. Johnson's team from these prints. I would certainly
be interested in seeing the results duplicated by disinterested
parties if for no other reason it would give us some documentation
to counter those who believe that Twining's letter is the end all for
the Roswell case.

KRandle





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               Re: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:29:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:10:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 20:41:55 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets

<snip>

>The interview will include showing of symbols and other
>anomalous objects identified by the international RPIT (Roswell
>Photo Interpretation Team) in the famous Ramey office photos and
>also unveil words identified in the "Ramey Message." Long the
>subject of much speculation as to exactly what is contained in
>the message held in Ramey's hands in each of the four pictures
>of him taken by Johnson in Ramey's office on July 8, 1947, the
>recent revelation by RPIT of part of the message will be
>featured on the television show.

>The Ramey Message is displayed in all caps on a telephone
>message sheet with a cradle phone typical of the 1947 era as
>logo and includes the words (so far positively identified): "AS
>THE .... 4 HRS THE VICTIMS OF THE ... YOU FORWARDED TO THE ...
>AT FORT WORTH, TEX. ... THE "CRASH" "STORY" ... FOR 0984
>ACKNOWLEDGES ... EMERGENCY POWERS ARE NEEDED SITE TWO SW>OF
>MAGDALENA, NMEX ... SAFE TALK ... FOR MEANING OF STORY AND
>MISSION ... WEATHER BALLOONS SENT ON THE ... AND LAND ... ROVER
>CREWS ... SIGNED  ... TEMPLE"


Hi Everyone -

Back in early 1991, when we tried this, with the help of a NASA
research scientist, we were able to learn the following which
might be of interest to everyone here.

The top of the sheet has either a printed heading or a typed
heading/title that is underlined. There could be a security
stamp in the upper right-hand corner. There are eight typed
lines of text visible. The vertical spacing between all eight
lines is the same. The bottom-most line contains about five
letters or characters and is located at the right side where a
name would be typed on a letter. The text was a mixture of upper
and lower case letters.

There isn't much here that would disagree with the findings of
Dr. Johnson and his cohorts. I would point out that they suggest
the message was typed in all caps rather than a mixture, and
that we found nothing that was representative of a telephone or
similar logo.

We did find a number of words such as TMC (in all caps), time,
PL4, CL4, tax to, GMT Sky and finally what might be a date or a
time: 1950. Not much to go on there. Since our anaylsis did not
have the benefit of modern computer programs, our conclusions
were limited.

KRandle





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   Sep > Sep 25

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 98 10:40:22 PDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:15:37 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:11:20 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:38:38 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>And I'm sure there are others who kept it all to themselves and
>>never told anybody, not even their spouse or children. People
>>are different. Is that really so hard to understand?

>>David Rudiak

>Not at all, especially if you believe in a security oath (death
>threats optional) that apparently doesn't count for a hill of
>beans.

>Or an Air Force, supposedly still engaged in the massive cover
>up of the Roswell debris and bodies, allowing many of the major
>players in the original drama to speak freely with anyone who
>found their phone number, if they were so inclined.

>Hey, you wanna talk about the Cosmic Watergate, the greatest
>secret and cover up in the history of the world, go ahead! Do
>what you think best. Originally, we had it classified higher
>than the H-bomb, but what the hell, people are different.
>Besides, it's been 40 or 50 years now, so say whatever you want
>to whomever you want. Hey, you didn't take that security oath
>stuff seriously, did you? Jeez, we were only joking!

>You-know-who is always reminding us that these were all
>hand-picked men capable bigod of keeping a secret when their
>country asked them to.

>It just strikes me as a dichotomy, that's all. But I do agree
>that "People Are Different" would make for a nice recruiting
>poster for the AF, CIA or NSA, or whoever it is that's still
>actively covering up Roswell. Down at the bottom they could put
>something like "Our security oaths last only as long as your
>enlistment!"

>You may be right that the ones who talked did so only because of
>the long passage of time. But since they weren't interviewed
>earlier, we'll never know. All we know generally is that some
>appear to have talked the first time they were asked by anyone.
>Marcel would be the perfect example. Friedman only learned of
>him because he had already told others. Who did he first tell
>and when? How many did he tell in all? We'll probably never
>know. All we can surmise is that his story must have been spread
>pretty wide for Friedman to bump into it on a sheer "accidental"
>encounter.

>Does this tell us something about Marcel? Of course it does. But
>since it's politically incorrect to discuss Marcel here in
>anything less than a prayerful, bowed posture, I won't.
>
>Dennis

Dennis,

I am at a loss to understand just about anything you're saying
here. Of course people are different. Of course people, or at
least some people, talk about things that are supposed to be
secret, usually after the passage of time has convinced him that
there's no harm either to the nation or to themselves in doing
so. This happens all the time outside UFO contexts. Apparently
your hatred of the Roswell case is such that you have convinced
yourself, if nobody else, that people always keep secrets and
that only crazy ufologists think otherwise.

Thank you, by the way, for restraining yourself from the further
trashing of Jesse Marcel, Sr.'s, good name. Maybe there's hope
after all.

Jerry Clark





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   Sep > Sep 25

                 Roswell Reward [was: Symbols Discovered on

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:59:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:18:53 -0400
Subject: Roswell Reward [was: Symbols Discovered on


>From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:29:43 EDT.
>Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:47:12 - 0400
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

><snip

>let's do away with the speculation and rely on the testimony
>of one of David Rudiak's favorite witnesses, none other than
>Major Jesse Marcel. Let's refer back to Bob Pratt's interview
>of Marcel on December 8, 1979, where Marcel explains how
>the press release got out:

>"In the meantime, we had an eager-beaver public relations
>officer -- he found out about it-- he calls the AP [Associated
>Press] about it. Then that's when it really hit the fan -- I
>don't mind using that expression."

>Just because Walter Haut is still alive, and Major Marcel and
>Colonel Blanchard are dead, doesn't mean Haut necessarily told
>the truth about the circumstances surrounding the press release.
>His claim that Blanchard ordered the release might very well be
>self-serving, in that he could have made the release without
>authorization (which he may not have needed anyway) from Colonel
>Blanchard, and invented the claim that Blanchard ordered the
>release so as not to look like a hotdog or a fool. Let's get
>Haut's permission to examine the _complete_ contents of _his_
>military personnel file to see if it contains any reprimands

><snip

>It might turn out that Haut made the release before he got word
>of the identification of the debris at Fort Worth. Haut jumped the
>gun. Had he waited, the news release might never have been
>released at all, or, if it was released, its contents might have been
>drastically different.

>This is a reasonable, rational explanation for the release,
>based on Major Marcel's statements. In fact, this is the _only_
>explanation that makes _any_ sense at all. What is curious is
>how this explanation virtually has been ignored for almost
>twenty years, in favor of the contrived nonsense senarios that
>seem to grow in complexity and sensationalism.

There were at least four and perhaps six rewards in early July
1947 for evidence that "flying discs" or "saucers" were real.
Stanton Friedman and Charles Moore were kind enough to forward
clippings to me on this subject in 1995:

1) The World Inventors' Exposition at Los Angeles offered $1,000
for the delivery of a "flying saucer" to Pan-Pacific Auditorium
by 6:30 P.M., July 11. (Los Angeles Evening Herald Express)

2) In Spokane, Washington, the Athletic Round Table offered
$1,000 to anyone who brought a disc to its headquarters.
(Express)

3) One E. J. Culligan of Northbrook, Ill, also proferred $1,000
for anyone capturing or presenting the "true explanation of the
phenomena" (Express).

4) The above may represent the $3,000 offered by a mid-western
newspaper (David Jacobs, A History of the UFO Controversy in
America), or the $3,000 mid-west "rewards" and their _claimants_
discussed by The United Press (Murray Schumach, The New York
Times, July 9, 1947, p. 1)

5) Documents reproduced in the 1995 Air Force report (McAndrew
and Weaver) discuss reward tags attached to New York University
balloon flight devices (Project Mogul) and show an example.

In 1947 $3,000 was a considereable sum, and probably represented
the annual earnings of many hard-scrabble New Mexico ranchers.

Karl Pflock has called my attention to an August 12, 1989,
personal interview with Norris Proctor, Loretta Proctor's
brother-in-law, mentioned in the 1991 UFO Crash at Roswell, by
Kevin Randle and Donald Schmitt.  Proctor recalled that Mac
Brazel was urged to try to claim the rewards being offered for
proof that saucers were real.

Thus, Brazel knew of the rewards, and had been urged to collect.
This would have been a perfectly reasonable explanation for his
collection (on a holiday) of the debris and his trip to the
Sheriff, as suggested by Bob Todd (The Cowflop Quarterly, Vol.
1, No. 1, May 5, 1995.

Intrigued by this possibility, in 1994 I wrote to Walter Haut,
in care of the International UFO Museum, where he was president.
I asked him if any of the fellows at the base, or others, had
considered claiming this reward.  I assured him that I was not
suggesting that this would have been illegal or even wrong, and
that I thought it might have even seemed like a good idea at the
time.  Haut did not reply directly, but I received a letter from
Max Littell, secretary of the Museum, who said they don't know
of anyone who claimed the reward.  He enclosed a nice museum
brochure and a list of items available from their gift shop.

Anyone who reads the press coverage of the first few weeks of
the saucer flap cannot help but notice that most of it made a
joke of the subject.  Perhaps with this in mind, Haut saw an
opportunity to have a little fun and support the claims of a
local rancher, a claim that, if it related to harmless debris of
this which Haut thought were actually being mistakenly reported
as saucers, would have been true.

The next day, the "eager beaver" had the decidedly uncomfortable
experience of knowing that a top AAF general was having a press
conference at the Pentagon about - his press release.  Walter
Haut may have spent the next 50 years trying to forget, or make
hay, out of what started out as a harmless public relations
stunt for the base.

Bob Young





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   Sep > Sep 25

                            Re: FOCUS Magazine UK

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:47:44 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:35:13 -0400
Subject: Re: FOCUS Magazine UK


>From: Roy Hale <roy_hale@yahoo.com>
>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:02:54 -0700 (PDT)
>Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:32:40 -0400
>Subject: FOCUS Magazine UK

>Hi All,

>For anyone out there, who is thinking on buying a copy of this
>mag, they would be better off buying the 'Beano'.
>[a British comic book --ebk]

>I was laughing, at the great revealtion (_not_!) article on how
>they were about to reveal the whole truth on the UFO subject. So
>guys and girls if you really want to know the 'truth' about what
>we have been seeing in the skies since time began, I suggest
>you read this.

>And remember folks once you have read this 'great truth' you can
>all stop investigating our dear beloved subject, because it
>seems that the larger scientists at focus have been playing
>naughty games with us Ufologists by not telling us the whole
>truth on the thousands of world-wide sightings.

>I do wish they would have told me the truth sooner, then I could
>have started research on how to breed the perfect Koi Carp. But
>being the great scientists and universaly perfect journalists
>I will let them off this time, and will start to take a
>different look at my great grandad's airplane model collection,
>thinking, "wow!", I and many thousands of people have been
>witnessing these great men in their flying machines all the
>time.

>For those who dont know, Focus magazine is well known for being
>very pro-skeptic which when looking at the UFO subject has
>tended to enlist the help of the little green men, and the Avro
>Car fans and the Stealth fans and the top secret super nuclear
>powered fans but never good old Joe Public ufologist. (What
>a biased world we live in sometimes, eh?)

Assertion of an idea is not proof. Because FOCUS has printed
these ideas, there now comes the hard part, to prove that the
ideas are so. I for one welcome this, especially from aviation
historians who to date have not touched UFOs with a ten foot
pole.

It is costly to look through official records and few people are
doing such research. So I would love some help no matter their
ideas are.

I have just looked through 55 microfilms the USAF Historical
Research Agency. The cost of these things has been raised to $30
each. Most of the time you come up dry.

After looking through thousands of pages of intelligence
documents we finally came upon a Top Secret US Strategic Air
Force Europe document which mentioned "phoo-bombs," crystal
balls and other foo-fighter phenomena. All prior documents have
come from intermediate and lower headquarters. This is one from
higher headquarters.

Even more interesting is the report of 6 Sep 1943 of "luminous
discs" in General Arnold's personal papers. Spaatz, Eaker, Dr.
Vannevar Bush and even Marshall were involved in what was
interpreted at the time as enemy aerial bombardment. If this
incident got such attention, I expect foo-fighters had similar
attention, and it is necessary to just go through the huge
amount of accumulated records. Unfortunately, the amount of data
_is_ huge and its costly to look for such material.



--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
Telephone: (860) 546-9135






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   Sep > Sep 25

                Re: KGB UFO Files - Another Film Stock Fraud?

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:59:39 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:37:48 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB UFO Files - Another Film Stock Fraud?


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:48:01 +0000
>Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:40:15 -0400
>Subject: Re: KGB UFO Files - Another Film Stock Fraud?

<snip>

>I am very interested in the Soviet film you were home-
>processing in the 60's as it would predate Kodak's
>Ektachrome by many years.

>Hope to hear more...


Dear Roger Evans, Neil Morris and List:

In 1976 I purchased East German color slide film, labelled
"Agfa" in grey and red boxes, in a Berioska (foreign currency)
store in Moscow or (then) Leningrad. I saw it for sale in a
number of places. When I inquired for color film made in the
USSR I was told that this is what was available and what locals
use. There was b & w film available made, I was told, in the
USSR. Unfortunately, after having this color stuff in my freezer
for about 15 years I discarded it before getting a chance to
test it out.

In a perhaps irrelevant anecdote about use of other foreign
photo technology there in the 1970s, I offer this. When visiting
the Lenin Museum off Red Square, an AV professional and I were
in a circular room with a many-slide projector presentation of
pictures of the Russian Revolution. In the center of the room
was a column from which the slides were projected. I noticed by
looking closely in the semi-darkness that they were using Kodak
projectors! Of course, anybody knew that these were (and still
are generally) the most reliable available, but in the Lenin
Museum in Moscow, where they take all the Soviet school kids and
as many tourists as they can? When the guide saw us (or possibly
overheard us) discussing and pointing this out, she gesticulated
to try to distract our attention to other parts of the exhibit.
This might support the idea that foreign color film may have
been used for this film. If they were using E German film in the
70s, why not 10 years earlier? After all, the GDR had to
reimburse them for all those occupying Soviet troops somehow.

Bob Young





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   Sep > Sep 25

                       Re: The Fort Worth Photographs

From: Joel Henry <jhenry@mail.wavefront.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:09:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:56:55 -0400
Subject: Re: The Fort Worth Photographs


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Fort Worth Photographs
>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 20:59:59 PDT

>>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:55:46 -0400
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: The Fort Worth Photographs

>>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 07:58:18 +0100
>>From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>To: Ufo Updates List <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: The Fort Worth Photographs

>>Dear All,
>
>>A selection of new images from James Bond Johnsons Fort Worth
>>photographs. It is hoped these highlight the very many anomalies
>>to be found in theses images. Please be patient with this site if
>>it's slow, it's running as a background job on my own
>>workstation.

>>Included in the selection is the Ramey Paper with my own "make"
>>on it's content, check it out an image is there to download.

>>Follow the RPIT item link from:

>>http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/

>>Neil.


>Neil & List,

>I fail to see any great reason for analysing these photos, save
>proving that it is/isn't Mogul wreckage. After all, if it was such a
>top secret project I am sure they wouldn't allow photos of Mogul to
>be taken in this manner - so they throw in some old baloon scraps and
>say "Sorry, we slipped up."

>Obviously the material in the photos can't even support its own
>weight let alone encased passengers. The truth lies elsewhere.

>Regards,
>Leanne

Mogul's secrecy status has been known for some time. The actual
device was not a big secret. It was the launches dates times and
locations that needed to be secret to prevent interference or
damage to prevent it from doing it's job. It even came with
directions for returning it if someone came across the wreckage.

There was nothing high tech about the mogul balloon or it's
payload. Project Mogul was a secret. mogul balloons were not.
people need to get their facts straight rather than wasting time
endlessly thrashing back and forth over moot points and
non-issues.

Joel henry

*****************************************************
Minnesota MUFON Webmaster
Minnesota MUFON Web Page= http://www.wavefront.com/~jhenry/index.html






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               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:27:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:06:33 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:50:42 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell
>>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 18:25:14 -0400


<snip-a-reno>

I keep telling myself to read the posts, disgest them, and go on
to something else. But, I have to respond here, I'm afraid.

>There is no compelling reason to think that the men and women
>stationed at Roswell in 1947 were any different. I don't think
>any of us envisions a base full of lip-zipped zombies walking
>around for several days after the news of the recovery of a
>flying disc made the local paper. So Henderson flies a plane
>with a crate on it. A crewman asks Henderson, "What we got?"
>Henderson says, "I don't know." Crewman says, "They didn't tell
>you!" and then launches into banter, maybe gigging Henderson for
>the next couple of hours, all the way to Ft. Worth, telling him
>about the bodies he's "seen," which are now onboard.

This is simply not true. There is a compelling reason to believe
that the people at Roswell wouldn't stand around the water
cooler jawing about this. They were not carpenters, secretaries,
office managers, or anything else. They had been schooled in
secrets and not talking about of school. Remember, when the
509th Composite Bomb Wing was formed to drop the atomic bombs on
Japan, they, meaning the military planted stories and allowed
soldiers to see mock ups of special aircraft. Then sent them all
on leave. They were shadowed and listened to, and if anyone
talked out of turn, he was sent him... or in the case, back to
his original unit.

These people had been schooled on how to keep their mouths shut.
So, when Robert Slusher, on the flight crew that took a big
crate to Fort Worth, he was told that it was the general's
furniture which was one way of telling him it was none of his
business.

Second, there are any number of "classified couriers." These
people carry classified material from one location to another
and have no need to know what they carry. They sign for it, they
do not look at it, and take it to the receiving agent, whomever
that might be, and get a signed receipt.

Finally, as to why some have talked in today's world, I think
Greg might have hit it here. Pappy Henderson said, after he saw
the Roswell story in a tabloid, "I guess I can tell you [his
wife] now." Technically, he was flat wrong. He should have not
said a word, but he thought the secret was out. That might
explain why some are talking in today's environment when they
wouldn't a decade or more ago.

>This brings me to a major carp I might as well get out of the
>way now: the absence of interview transcripts in any of the
>major Roswell books. Maybe this was a decision on the part of
>the various publishers, I don't know. All I do know is that it
>leaves the reading public largely in the dark.

Because, mainly they are boring. The important points have been
published. And I have published transcripts about many of these
interviews.

>For example, in the Randle Report, p. 201, Easley is quoted as
>saying, "Let me put it this way. That is not the wrong path."

>In Conspiracy of Silence Randle quotes him as saying (p. 29),
>"That's the right path. You're not following the wrong one."

>Same sense, admittedly, but what does it say about Randle's
>reliability as a reporter? Is he quoting two different audio
>tapes? Is he even quoting?

Oh, let's now argue about trivia shall we?

Okay, one time with feeling.

Me: Are we following the right path?

Edwin Easley: What do you mean?

Me: We think it was extraterrestrial.

Edwin Easley: Let me put it this way. That's not the wrong
path.

Do I have it on tape? No. Why? Because at the time, I was
spending a great deal of time and money on the investigation.
Never enough for the critics, but all I could afford. It was my
time and money and I have other books to write (horror of
horrors to many some were Science Fiction). While at the CUFOS
office, while they were doing secret board meeting stuff, I was
told to make use of the telephones. One of those I called was
Edwin Easley and during that non-tape-recorded conversation, he
made the statement.

Yes, I fully intended to get him on tape at some other time. I
hoped that Mark Rodegheir, who was going to Fort Worth would be
able to meet with Easley in person. I called to arrange that,
but was unable to get him on the telephone. I talked to his
wife. After several failed attempts, I called again, and learned
that he was very ill. Here was a great opportunity lost.

Now, the two quotes (and I'm not even going to look them up)
mentioned here are probably as they were in the book. So what?
They say the same thing and if the editor changed one to the
positive and I failed to catch it on the page proofs, well, big
deal. Easley said, basically, the craft was extraterrestrial,
but he didn't say it on tape and that is one of the major
regrets I have because we could have ended this discussion at
that point. You'll either believe he said it, or you won't.

KRandle





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   Sep > Sep 25

                    Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk

From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 21:26:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:10:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 23:09:17 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Roswell Alien Autopsy Film Junk

>Hey, all.

>After reviewing a variety of articles and websites, the story I
>get about the Santilli Roswell film is as follows: The film was
>shot by an Army cameraman in a hurried state using a standard
>issue Bell and Howell wind-type 16mm camera under normal and low
>lighting. Some of the film was processed right away and is
>currently under "top security" lock and key by the government.
>The balance of the film (approximately 25 reels) required
>special "push" processing due to the low lighting and was kept
>separate by the cameraman. Changes in command as the Airforce
>took over ufo investigations allowed the cameraman to "slip
>through the cracks" and keep the processed reels. Later, he sold
>the films to Santilli where they then ended up on national
>television amid much debate, yadda, yadda, yadda...

>Amazingly, there still seems to be those that believe the film
>is real. I can guarantee that it isn't. Here's why:

>If the cameraman is to be believed, the autopsy footage was shot
>under low light resulting in the need to have the film "push"
>processed. For those unfamiliar, this means that the film was
>underexposed during the shooting and then processed longer than
>normal to help bring out the latent image. This is supposed to
>account for the tell-tale grainy look of the film. If this is
>true, then why is most of the film OVER exposed? I've been a
>professional cinematographer for 20 years and I can assure you
>that push processed film will appear properly exposed, at best,
>with occasional patches of underexposure but never overexposed.

>But why should the film be underexposed in the first place?
>Light bulbs are THE cheapest thing that the military would need
>to provide for such an important event. Did they really draw the
>line for such an acquisition? I picture a high level meeting
>where the line items are approved:

<snip>


Rodger,

Santilli maintains he had the "copies" "light-blasted" to obtain
the results he released, if you see the whole "raw"footage" tape
you can see distinct variations in density as I would expect if
the sections of the film had been push processed by hand.

Neil.


--
*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *
Neil Morris.       /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\
Dept of Physics.   1                                                 1
Univ of Manchester 0                                                 0
Schuster Labs.     1  Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES  1
Brunswick St.      0                                                 0
Manchester.        1                                                 1
UK.                \0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/
G8KOQ


             E-mail: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive->  http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/
Dave Willetts Home Page->    http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/dave_willetts/
Mike Sterling Home Page->    http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/mike-s/
Tim Morgan Home Page   ->    http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tim-m/

*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *





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   Sep > Sep 25

                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 98 15:29:27 PDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:25:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:25:35 -0400

>>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:13:50 -0500 (CDT)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>Now imagine you're someone with substantial information about a
>b-i-g UFO secret, and you want to leak it the proper way. You
>don't want to go to some flea-bitten UFO researcher. You don't
>want to be on tabloid TV. You don't want to find a ghostwriter
>to concoct a totally implausible book. Instead, you want to go
>to the NY Times, documents in hand, ready to work with their top
>reporters to prove that the secret really exists.

>So you call the newsroom, and ask for Seymour Hersh. You get him
>on the phone (not at all implausible; remember that reporters
>depend on leaks and sources, so they'll talk to all sorts of
>people.) You mention UFOs, and he starts laughing at you. He's
>too busy for that kind of nonsense, he says, and hangs up the
>phone. Media people, in my experience, are skeptical to the
>point of derision.

>You'd expect something like that when pedophiles are arrested --
>the requirement for balance doesn't go _that_ far. Nobody
>expects you to call the National Pedophilia Society for a
>defense of sex with children.But the Roswell crash? Are Roswell
>researchers so disreputable that the guy didn't feel he had to
>make the kind of phone call that, in nearly any other story,
>he'd be required to make?

>Like I said, this is weird. Or rather it demonstrates a truth
>about the media -- they don't take UFOs seriously. A few years
>ago, I asked Kevin Randle if any mainstream journalists had ever
>called him to find out what the evidence for the crash might be.
>He said none had -- even when the story became national news.


>Maybe, if there really is a big UFO secret, somebody did try to
>leak it -- and Seymour Hersh hung up on her.

Greg,

As usual you make many good points. Sometimes I get the
impression that it's arguments from anti-Roswell types, not the
Roswell craft itself, whose origin is in outer space.

Back in the 1970s I remember reading a profile of Seymour Hersh
in Rolling Stone. The writer, who was talking with Hersh at the
latter's desk, heard the phone ring. Hersh picked it up and
listened for approximately half a minute before snapping, "I
don't do UFO stories," and hanging up. Maybe, just conceivably
(let's give our imagination free rein here), that's the man who
tried to leak Roswell. We don't know because Hersh doesn't "do
UFO stories."

If there are crashed saucers, nobody can argue with a straight
face that the story hasn't been leaking all over the place. It's
been around since the late 1940s, and in 50 years no serious
investigative journalist has touched it. I, too, noticed the
bizarre -- yet depressingly predictable -- way the NYT handled
the latest AF explanation for Roswell. It was written, as press
accounts in elite newspapers throughout the history of the UFO
controversy have always been written, as if paraphrased from an
AF press release. Of course, where everything is concerned, the
media are habitually skeptical of official pronouncements and
seek independent confirmation or disconfirmation. It's only
about UFOs, apparently, that officialdom can be trusted,
utterly. And _we're_ supposed to be the true believers?

Maybe, come to think of it, that this is Dennis' _real_
objection: that we ufologists are so perverse that we presume to
be skeptical of AF press releases.

Jerry Clark





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   Sep > Sep 25

               Re: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:25:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 19:29:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets


The RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team) has invited any and
all Roswell Event researchers to join in the quest for the truth
by obtaining their own copies of the 1947 Ramey Office Photos
from the University of Texas at Arlington Library and Adobe
Photo Shop, or similar, software for their computers. Of course,
to read the "Ramey Message" only the Ramey/Dubose shot is
needed. Nothing else is needed but good eyes and a lot of
patience.

What also would be most helpful are your reasonable
interpretations of what is seen in not only the Ramey Message
text but also the symbols and other anomalous objects in the
fotos. We can pretty much rule out what these are NOT -- but
much assistance is needed to determine what they ARE! So join in
this exciting quest -- and be a part of Roswell History -- in
this the SECOND HALF of what may well be the Mystery of the
Century!

To get up to speed as to the RPIT findings so far, please review
the links to my main link page:

http://www.ufomind.com/people/j/johnsonj/ James Bond Johnson

or

http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/index.htm
The Fort Worth Pictures taken by James Bond J...

http://www.abduct.com/aaer/n52.htm
News: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

http://www.abduct.com/aaer/n53.htm
News: More Symbols Discovered on Roswell Cras...

http://www.artbell.com/jbjohnson.html
Art Bell - Roswell Debris Photos

Please send your findings and comments to Ron Regehr, RPIT
coordinator, at Ronald.Regehr@Aerojet.com. Your assistance will
be greatly appreciated.

James Bond Johnson







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   Sep > Sep 26

                           Salon Magazine Article

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:43:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:43:38 -0400
Subject: Salon Magazine Article

Source: http://www.salonmagazine.com:80/it/feature/1998/09/22feature.html

Salon Magazine

SALON | Sept. 22, 1998


After Decades Of Debunking And Naysaying, Why Have
Academics Invited Aliens Into The Ivory Tower?

Ufology

by Christina Valhouli

Take us to your professor.


 Since the time of Galileo, astronomers have pointed their
telescopes at the heavens and asked, "Are we alone in the
universe?" Now, that same question is being posed by historians,
political scientists, psychologists and sociologists who don't
use telescopes but the more elusive instruments of the soft
social sciences: research, oral history, theory and, finally,
conjecture.

 Recently, popular culture has been suffused by man-made aliens.
From television shows like "The X Files" and "3rd Rock From the
Sun" to movies like "Independence Day" and "Men in Black," from
the ad campaign for the Volkswagen Beetle claiming the car has
been "reverse engineered" from UFOs to commercials in which ETs
promote Hostess Ding Dongs, Quisp "the qwazy energy cereal" and
Chilis restaurants, we can't seem to get enough of these
alternately adorable, wise and terrifying but always slimy
creatures. They've even starred alongside Kenny, Cartman, Stan
and Kyle in the premiere episode of "South Park," called "When
Cartman Gets an Anal Probe."

 Academia has usually been a haven from crazes involving
paranormal phenomena, but now there are signs that alien nation
has finally caught fire within the once cool walls of the ivory
tower. In July, Stanford University professor emeritus Peter
Sturrock and a panel of scientists from Princeton, Cornell and
the University of Virginia reviewed a series of UFO reports.
Their conclusion? Although the incidents had nothing to do with
extraterrestrial intelligence, the panel called for more
thorough investigations and criticized scientists' reluctance to
study UFOs. In April, Cornell University Press published "Aliens
in America" by political scientist Jodi Dean, who teaches at
Hobart and William Smith colleges. And in the fall of 1999, the
University of Kansas Press will publish an anthology of UFO
essays, written by professors from Johns Hopkins, Temple and
Eastern Michigan universities.

 Peculiar though it may be, the marriage of aliens with academia
should come as no surprise. A university experiment first gave
rise to the contemporary notion of aliens back in 1947. UFO
mania kicked off in the United States that year on June 24, when
amateur pilot Kenneth Arnold said he saw nine mysterious objects
flying at supersonic speed across the Cascade Mountains near
Mount Rainier. The press dubbed them "flying saucers" and the
phrase stuck. Later that summer, a ranch foreman, W.W. Brazel,
found strange, shiny material scattered near Roswell, N.M.
Military officials called the debris a fallen weather balloon
but some believed it was a flying saucer containing aliens. The
story gained so much momentum that in 1966, Rep. Gerald Ford
headed a congressional panel that looked into UFOs that included
testimony by scientist Carl Sagan.

 The Roswell sighting resulted from a classified experiment
developed by scientists at Columbia University, New York
University and Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution. The team
worked on "Project Mogul," a program designed to search for
evidence of nuclear blasts, according to an Air Force report.
The fallen debris came from the broken balloons and radar
reflectors.

 Since then, academia and UFOs have remained blessedly separate.
Until now. Despite ufology's stigma as an area of study for
Weekly World News suckers and backwater eccentrics, a growing
number of academics are risking their careers to come out of the
extraterrestrial closet and openly study UFOs.

 The best known and most controversial is Harvard psychiatrist
John Mack, who uses hypnosis to determine if people have been
abducted. Once the cr=E8me de la cr=E8me at Harvard, Mack built its
psychiatry program from scratch and won a Pulitzer Prize for his
1977 biography of psychoanalyst T.E. Lawrence. Now he could be
considered cr=E8me br=FBlee. Mack's colleagues view him as an
embarrassment and make no bones about it.

 "I disagree with his conclusions and think he's totally
deluded," says Dr. Paul Horowitz, an astronomer at Harvard who
is currently working on the SETI (the Search for Extra
Terrestrial Intelligence) project.

Mack burst onto the scene in 1994 when he published "Abduction:
Human Encounters With Aliens." Although he wasn't the first to
write about abduction (that honor belongs to Whitley Streiber,
author of "Communion"), he was the first academic to venture
into the field armed with heavy credentials.

 The book grew out of his relationship with Budd Hopkins, a New
York artist and sculptor who runs a free support group for
abductees. Hopkins, who had written three bestselling books
based on testimony from his support group, began sending many of
his self-proclaimed abductees to Mack for intensive interviews
and investigation.

 But these studies and the publications that chronicled them
ultimately proved fatal to Mack's academic career. Eventually,
he quit teaching at Harvard and now runs PEER, the Program for
Extraordinary Experience Research, a nonprofit, privately funded
organization that researches alien abduction. The organization
publishes a newsletter and offers a referral service to licensed
therapists.

 If Mack is the founding father of ufology, Dave Jacobs of
Temple University may be its revolutionary son. He believes that
aliens are trying to colonize America by breeding with humans.
He did his doctoral dissertation on the UFO controversy at the
University of Wisconsin, which was published by the University
of Indiana press. Holding a conversation with Jacobs can be a
frustrating experience, because he is armed with a flotilla of
abduction stories he is quick to share.

 In an utterly sincere voice, he tells me that aliens are
conducting a program of physiological exploitation, where they
are seizing human sperm and eggs to create hybrid alien babies.
Their goal is to colonize America, and Jacobs predicts the
integration will be a peaceful one. And then his voice falls. "I
don't like this. I hate this and I'm frightened by it," he says,
referring to the turn his career has taken. "If I had done other
research I could have had a life. It's hurt my life and my
career. Even my kids are ridiculed in school."

 While Mack and Jacobs have willingly lent their names to UFO
research and have become the stars in this scorned little
galaxy, they are not alone. But their fellow ufologists can be
as elusive as the aliens they are trying to find. As with many
marginalized subcultures, ufologists are sometimes clannish,
secretive and reluctant to speak with outsiders. Some hedge at
merely acknowledging that a "scene" exists; one insider
whispered that it was like being part of an "invisible college."
In fact, ufologists tend toward paranoia. Before granting me an
interview, most grilled me on my attitudes toward
extraterrestrial life and its scholars. In the end, many people
declined to comment on the topic despite their having attended
UFO conferences and published papers on the subject.

 David Pritchard, a physicist at MIT, offers a case in point,
although he was kind enough to grant me an interview of sorts.
He's conducted research with aliens, but he doesn't like to talk
about it. "It's not like I go babbling to my colleagues about my
interest," he says. Reluctant doesn't even begin to describe
him, and cantankerous would be generous. In 1992, Pritchard and
Mack held a conference where they examined people claiming to
have alien implants. They found no evidence. When asked for
details on the conference, he yelled, "Get the book!" And while
Pritchard admits a subculture exists, he's mum about the
members. He became extremely agitated, and shouted, "I'm not
going to talk to you about the culture and I'm not going to give
you any names!" Gauging from his reaction, you'd think this was
the 1950s and I was asking him to rat on some communists.

 Gradually, though, I began to get a glimpse of the field as a
whole. Ufology is interrelated to the point of being incestuous.
It's like following a choose-your-own adventure novel. Start
with one person and it will eventually lead back to Mack. Along
the way, ufologists bash each other and credit themselves with
starting a movement or particular idea. After weeks of calling
ufologists all over the country, I came away with another
peculiar observation: These people seem to hate one another.
Given that their common interests have put their jobs and
reputations at risk, you'd think they might stick up for one
another.

 Perhaps this is best explained as guilt by association. Indeed,
most of the professors I interviewed seemed to have a love/hate
relationship with UFOs. They say they regret their decision and
the ridicule that comes with the stigma of studying UFOs, but
they continue to follow the path to Golgotha. "It's fair to say
my job marketability has decreased," says Ron Westrum, who
teaches sociology at Eastern Michigan. "I can pretty much count
on not moving up in my department."

 If ufology is so scary and such a career stopper, why do it?
For one thing, it's a way for professors to claw their way out
of their second-tier colleges and obscurity. If books like "The
Celestine Prophecy" and "The Horse Whisperer" can make the New
York Times Bestseller list, then aliens are a shoo-in. Schlock
sells, and professors know this.

 One example is the ultra-excitable Jodi Dean of Hobart and
William Smith colleges. Her book, "Aliens in America," explores
how and why aliens have captured the popular imagination. As a
woman in an almost exclusively male field, she is an anomaly.
But more remarkable still, she wrote the book before tenure and
was recently awarded the Faculty Award for Excellence in
Scholarship. Dean says she was drawn to aliens because her first
book, on feminism, had an audience of "about five people." Of
course, a cultural anaylsis of aliens in popular culture and
actually saying aliens exist are two different things.

 While her book was recently panned in the New York Times Book
Review for endorsing the culture of paranoia, Dean argues
persuasively that the current alien craze was ignited by the
1986 Challenger Shuttle explosion. Until then, she maintains,
space represented freedom, adventure and prosperity. But when an
ordinary woman like Christa McAuliffe was killed by her venture
into outer space, suddenly the heavens again became a threat.
The following year the first abduction book hit the shelves --
Streiber's "Communion" -- and abduction theory was born.

 While aliens translate into fun and profit for some professors,
they infuriate others. Astronomer David Helfand of Columbia
University says that he becomes exasperated and depressed when
people claim to have seen aliens.

 "It's a sign of the rejection of knowledge as a valuable
thing," he says. "People are retreating into magic, myth and
superstition." Helfand says that while there could be life on
other planets, "it doesn't imply they regularly visit Earth nor
have sex with humans. It's total and utter nonsense."

 While traditional scholars can bemoan the deterioration of
academic standards, scholarly ufology may be only the beginning
of a cottage industry that takes aliens and their visits to
earth as absolute facts. Recently, a teacher named Leah Haley
wrote "Ceto's New Friends," a book aimed at children ages 4 to
8, to teach them how to cope with their extraterrestrial
visitors.






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   Sep > Sep 26

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:35:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:31:52 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:50:42 -0500 (CDT)
> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
> Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

> There is no compelling reason to think that the men and women
> stationed at Roswell in 1947 were any different. I don't think
> any of us envisions a base full of lip-zipped zombies walking
> around for several days after the news of the recovery of a
> flying disc made the local paper. So Henderson flies a plane
> with a crate on it. A crewman asks Henderson, "What we got?"
> Henderson says, "I don't know." Crewman says, "They didn't tell
> you!" and then launches into banter, maybe gigging Henderson for
> the next couple of hours, all the way to Ft. Worth, telling him
> about the bodies he's "seen," which are now onboard.

As you note, Henderson didn't see the bodies. Your scenario seems
unlikely to me, though. If there's tight security, everybody on
the plane might have gotten stern warnings just before boarding
the flight. For all I know (and maybe somebody does know this),
there could have been security types on the plane.

It would be interesting, by the way, to know if people on the
base joked about the Roswell incident, after the fact. First a
press release, announcing a recovered disk, then a
retraction...an intelligence officer who, allegedly, got carried
away...I can see Walter Haut and Jesse Marcel getting ragged
every time they showed up at the officers' club. Did that
happen?

Also -- not everybody blabs. Henderson didn't tell his own wife
for years. Maybe he _would_ have kept his mouth shut on the
flight.

> This brings me to a major carp I might as well get out of the
> way now: the absence of interview transcripts in any of the
> major Roswell books. Maybe this was a decision on the part of
> the various publishers, I don't know. All I do know is that it
> leaves the reading public largely in the dark.

I agree. Kevin has complete transcripts of his own interviews,
and they make fascinating reading. If he'd published his Exon
transcript, Karl Pflock (sorry, Karl) and Kal Korff would never
have been able to claim that Kevin misrepresented the good
General. I've read it, and also listened to some of the tapes
it's taken from. Exon did indeed blab about a UFO crash, of an
alien craft, that he believed had taken place. And he did so
willingly, without any coaxing. Kevin didn't even say the word
"Roswell" -- Exon came out with it all by himself.

> For example, in the Randle Report, p. 201, Easley is quoted as
> saying, "Let me put it this way. That is not the wrong path."

> In Conspiracy of Silence Randle quotes him as saying (p. 29),
> "That's the right path. You're not following the wrong one."

Kevin doesn't have a transcript of this crucial conversation,
because he didn't tape it. He has notes, but they might be
fragmentary. He might have only his memory to go on for the exact
wording. (And, of course, he can't prove that the conversation
ever took place.)

> And the idea of compensation doesn't raise any red flags with
> you? Then you're at least as unsuspecting and forgiving as you
> are otherwise sensible. Could it possibly be that Brown's
> obsession had anything to do with cashing in on Roswell's
> newfound popularity, the same way that Anderson and Corso, and
> who knows who else, tried to do? Regardless of whether he
> actually participated in anything unusual or not? After all, he
> was there and we weren't. But who are we to argue with the camp
> cook?

Brown wasn't looking for money. I'm sorry that I didn't tell the
full story. He was old when he started saying the government owed
him something. He was sick, too, and his daughter thought these
remarks were a kind of delirium. I may be remembering
incorrectly, but I believe that, in any case, all this happened
before Roswell was widely discussed. I do remember the daughter
saying that she'd checked her father's military records after the
Roswell furor began, because he'd talked from time to time about
a flying saucer crash. She says she was astonished to see that
he'd been at the very Roswell base everyone was talking about.
That's when she started to take his story seriously.

And as for Brown being a cook...Philip Klass and others have
giggled at the thought of a cook guarding alien bodies. But I
once had a chance to talk to a World War II-era army cook. (He
was the stepfather of an ex-girlfriend of mine.) He said he was
constantly ordered to do things you wouldn't expect cooks to do,
including standing guard. He wasn't even qualified, he said, to
do some of these things, like driving a general somewhere when he
barely knew how to drive. From what I've gathered, it was and
maybe still is standard military practice to "volunteer" people
for jobs, simply because they're standing around and available.
Not, of course, that this explains why random GIs would have been
chosen for the most secret alleged operation in military history
-- unless, of course, someone in charge of finding the guards
knew Brown. Who knows?








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   Sep > Sep 26

                       Re: More On Ramey Photo & Note

From: James S. Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 20:13:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:27:13 -0400
Subject: Re: More On Ramey Photo & Note


>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:17:39 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>To: Errol <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: Ramey Note (fwd)

<snip>


>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:10:03 -0500
>From: Derrel Sims <derrel@holman.net>
>To: "'Regehr, Ronald'" <RONALD.REGEHR@Aerojet.com>
>Subject: RE: Ramey Note

<snip>

>From: Regehr, Ronald [SMTP:RONALD.REGEHR@Aerojet.com]
>Sent: Thursday, September 24, 1998 3:29 PM
>To:    fsphys@brunnet.net; decker@ufomag.com; Art
>Subject:       Ramey Note

>Hello my friends,

>Things move too swiftly sometimes for me to keep up. As you
>might be aware, several of us have deciphered much of the note
>Gen. Ramey is holding in his hand in the infamous "Ramey/DuBose"
>photo taken by James Bond Johnson over 51 years ago. The
>"translation" was performed indendently at at least two
>locations and achieved an outstanding degree of correlation.
>Each team member worked from a 16 x 20 print made from the
>original negatives available from the UTA archives. The file
>from which I worked is a scanned image of solely the message and
>is 821 megabytes (this from an approximate 1" x 3/8" image
>size!). Because of the differing image intensities we were
>required to vary the brightness and contrast of different areas
>of the image in order to best resolve the individual characters.
>Translation took 3 to 4 hours. Several factors assisted us.

<snip>

>The message, as best we can determine to date, is:




>
>       Cradle Telephone
>           or
>       Liberty Bell Symbol
>
>                             [ Large Underlined Header ]
>
>       [ Top Left ]
>     [ Official Crest ]                                  [ handwritten
>numerals ]
>                                                                   15 33
>                                                            ? time of
>receipt ?




>   1)  ....................................................... AS THE
>                     ??                                          PLA KIF
>(could this be PLANE WRECK?)
>   2)  ........ 4 hRS THE VICTIMS OF.THE.DOA.REYK....FORWARDED TO YOU
>
>   3)  ......... AT FORT WORTH, TEX.
>
>   4)  .............. THE "DISK"
>..............................L.......AT  0984 ACKNOWLEDGES
>

Hmmmm.  Interesting.  But it does not seem to me that _if_ the
note reveals a crashed disk, it would be displayed for the
cameras to pick up and the public (and Soviets) to see.  Does
it?

Also, can it be that Gen. Ramey DID NOT READ THE NOTE prior to
taking the photos?

Not taking a position on either side, but merely asking what to
me must be obvious questions relating to the comportment of
military men in an obviously sensitive position.

Gads, if it was a disc and if Ramey did not read a document
prior to taking photos of it with the "evidence,"  we was, and
we still is, in a heapa' trouble folks!  Between Slick and
Roger, can't figure out which is a bigger dimbulb... what does
this mean to what happened between then and now?  I mean, how
did we make it thru Korea, Nam and the cold war?  How did we
make it thru several serious DEFCONS (hope I got that right, you
gotta be real careful around this place)?  Huh?


Jim







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                            ELFIS ISSUE 6 part 3

From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis@ccsi.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 20:47:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:36:45 -0400
Subject: ELFIS ISSUE 6 part 3

Howdy  LISTERS,

A few days into FALL and the final installment of ELFIS ISSUE 6
- SUMMER 1998 edition is ready.

Within this week's updates you will find the LUCID DREAM WAR
continues within DreamTime NOW! This includes the works of Paul
Rydeen and Adam Gorightly with commentary by Jeffery Lewis. Also
in this issue is another article from Harv Howard. I've also
added a brief bit to my EHE autobiography. Mr. Baggins prepares
us for the FUTURE. And veteran anomalist Steve Mizrach appraises
the now global ufo info scene.

So kick back, grab some refreshments and explore the final
Summer 1998 installment of ELFIS ISSUE 6.


The url contents list is as follows

Main Page ELFIS ISSUE 6:
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/A6.html

UFOs in the Age of Information by Steve Mizrach:
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6ufoinfoageSM.htm

Mental Health & the UFO Contactee by Harv Howard:
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6mntlHH.htm

SMiles EHE AutoBiography 2nd Installment-Mother's Intuition:
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6mntlHH.htm

Mr. Baggins prepares you for THE FUTURE:
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6futrev.htm

MKC-Mind Kontrol Corner (Putting the E L F back in ELFIS):
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6mkc.htm

Researcher Re:Viewed - Q & A with Karla Turner:
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6qakarla.htm

DreamTime NOW!

Dream Map - Paul Rydeen:
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6DT.htm#dreamap

Twelve Spooky Fingers - Adam Gorightly:
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6DT.htm#12sf

Jeffery Lewis' commentary on Spooky Fingers:
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6DT.htm#jlcom

Archives- CIA/UFOs/U2s, UFO Firemanual, and Global CommUnity:
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/A6.html#archives


--

Stephen MILES Lewis

Writer, Designer, Producer, Editor
& INFORMATIONALIST

E.L.F. INFESTED SPACES -
Journal of Possible Paradigms

mailto:elfis@ccsi.com

ELFIS OnLine :
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin

ELFIS Archive :
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL0/ELFOLARC.html

ELFIS Links :
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/links/ELFLinks.htm





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                    Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:45:08 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:57:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk


Dear Neil Morris, Bob Young and all,

Neil:

Regarding Santilli's claim of having the Roswell autopsy film
"light blasted"... Why bother? True, it does tend to make the
film look more erie but has no practical or beneficial purpose.
On the contrary, I'd think keeping normal skin tones would be
would be paramount in presenting what is _supposed_ to be
authentic documentary footage and the publics' first 'real' look
at an alien being! To suggest that the film is over exposed to
the point of losing detail because of something that Santilli
did AFTER the film was processed years ago is to imply that the
film was okay to begin with. So why screw with it? Unless, of
course, he was trying to alter the image to fit the general
public's perception of what documentary footage from the 40's
was SUPPOSED to look like...

As far as changes in density due to selective push processing by
hand as you maintain.... Processing of motion picture film isn't
usually done by hand, but by a continuous feed roller transport.
At the least, it would have been done on large stainless steel
coils too big to use by hand. Besides, the cameraman would have
no way of knowing which sections of film WITHIN a roll to push
and which ones to avoid. Film destined for push processing is
always separated by the roll which, as I understand it, he did.
All the rolls shot in the "autopsy room" he felt were
underexposed and were pushed accordingly in a group. Each entire
roll would have been processed from one end to the other without
interruption either on a continuous feed roller transport or an
automated steel core "dip and dunk" common to that time period.
Barring any increases is illumination (which would eliminate the
need for push processing) variations in density would,
therefore, have to be artificial in nature; perhaps created
during a late night "light blasting" session?...

 Of course, one could maintain that the processing, just like
the shooting and lighting was very "hurried" and haphazard. But
this just seems plain silly. Unless this was, like, the 100th
alien autopsy and everyone was just getting sloppy, it makes no
sense that EVERYTHING would be handled so poorly when it was
such a singularly important event in history. And if security
was such an issue, why give clearance to such a second rate
camera man when you could run the same security risk with a
better one? Certainly this wasn't the ONLY guy available...

Bob:

The question isn't whether 16mm color film was available in the
Soviet Union in the mid 60's. The question is whether there was
16mm color NEGATIVE film available ANYWHERE. Negative isn't the
same as the slide film you were describing even though, as Neil
pointed out in another posting, you CAN squeeze a negative image
out of reversal film after the first stage of developing. Not
impossible but I think Neil would agree it wouldn't be very
practical...

Later...

Roger Evans





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                         Re: Salon Magazine Article

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 23:34:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:57:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Salon Magazine Article


>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:11:37 -0400
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Salon Magazine Article - List Only

>Source: http://www.salonmagazine.com:80/it/feature/1998/09/22feature.html>

>Salon Magazine

>SALON | Sept. 22, 1998


>After Decades Of Debunking And Naysaying, Why Have
>Academics Invited Aliens Into The Ivory Tower?

>Ufology

>by Christina Valhouli

>Take us to your professor.

<magnum snip> (no one is going to miss it anyway)

This has to be the _dumbest_ article on Ufology that I have seen
in years... maybe ever (ranks with Howard Blum's book 'Out
There' or Curtis Peebles WATCH THE SKIES in terms of erroneous
information and misinterpretation).

Mack is the father of ufology?

_Give_me_a_break_!

Jacobs is his son? (Doesn't she know that Jacobs came first? The
son is the father to the man?

The Roswell incident was the result of an academic experiment?

The Roswell incident grew to the point where it affected Gerald
Ford in 1966? (He lent his support to pressure in Congress to
have an independent review of the UFO situation, not because of
the Roswell crash---which no one paid any attention to until
1978 -- but because a number of his constituents, in particular
around Hillsdale, MI, had seen UFOs and had been told they say
"swamp gas")

This is a fine example of wht happens when you start with
nothing but a point of view and then select evidence and write
in a way to support that view (UFOs are excrement, abductees are
deluded, some professors need ufology in order to get rich and
famous, and paranoia abounds).





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                         Re: Salon Magazine Article

From: GT Mccoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 21:17:02 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 08:13:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Salon Magazine Article


Salon's article is why I keep my interest in UFOs  secret. (to a
degree) A classic example of media blindness and hostility
toward any thing that smacks of the paranormal or the
miraculous.

I do not think that it is a media/goverment conspiracy,but an
underlying need to be right, to be the voice of truth, to, to be
uh er, um sane... no... sensible. Kind of the way my late auntie
used to remind me of keeping my arms in the car not on the
window sill for fear of losing my arm in a side collision.
"Contrary excuses are not allowed "she would expain. Removal of
tonsils was another one of her favorites.During the 50's there
were a small cadre' of Dr.s that believed that (huh?) tonsilis
were of some use to the immune system (our family Doc was one of
them) and refused to take them out.Of couse this ran against my
dear Aunts ideas (and science at the time) I and my family
caught hell from my Aunt for not taking my tonsils out.

In a way, Salon was talking about scientific "tonsils" ignoring
what may be likely "tonsils are a part of the immune system" to
a "tonsilitis is cured by removing the tonsils" approach, that
while accurate, may be Ignoring the truth.

-GT mccoy

       "Half of any thing anyone tells you
        is a lie it's up to you to figure out
        which half"-Anon-






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                    Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk

From: Michel M. Deschamps <739411@ican.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 01:20:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 08:25:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk
>Date: Friday, September 25, 1998 6:10 PM

>Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 21:26:06 +0100
>From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 23:09:17 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Roswell Alien Autopsy Film Junk


<snip>

I, for one, am 200% sure the alien autopsy is real and here are
the reasons why:

(1) Most people familiar with the Roswell Incident (including
the supposed hoaxer of the film) would have known that the
bodies that were reportedly recovered near Roswell in 1947 _did
not have six fingers_, only four!!! So anyone reporting this
so-called _autopsy_ film as being that of a Roswell alien would
immediately be called a fraud or a hoaxer for that one and only
reason!

(2) What about the eye coverings that were removed by the
_doctor_ performing the dissection? No one knew about the
existence of these coverings until the late Col. Philip Corso
mentioned it in his book. If it was mentioned elsewhere, I am
not aware of it. I've read a lot of books and reports about
Roswell, including the late Leonard Stringfield's Status Reports
on other Crash/Retrievals. I've never come across any mention of
these eye coverings.

(3) This is not an autopsy; it's a dissection. An autopsy is
performed in order to determine the cause of death. Obviously,
the cause of death, in this case, was the crash of the vehicle
itself, whether it impacted into the rock or collided with a
similar vehicle in mid-flight. Whoever was doing the dissection
must have been briefed about such events. Otherwise, he would
not have been brought in to do the procedure.

And I'm sure that this was not a one-time thing. There are many
other instances where as much as 12 little bodies have been
recovered from a single crashed saucer. So it wouldn't be too
surprising to me to find out that dissections would be performed
on more than one body, and at different stages.

For example: One body would be left intact, showing the outward
appearance of the creature. Another might show the internal
organs, both respiratory and (if present) reproductive organs.
And in the case of this alien dissection, every internal organ
and tissue would be removed for the purpose of study. Pure and
simple.

(4) When I looked at the pieces of debris on the table,
especially the _control pads_, I noticed how easily the man
picked up one of them with a single hand, as though it had no
weight to it!? The way it came off the table tells me that it
practically weighed nothing. Did anyone else notice that?

Why go through all that trouble and produce (in great detail)
something which was obviously never mentioned (or reported)
before, that would automatically be labeled a hoax?! I haven't
seen any proof at all that this film is a hoax. Calling it a
hoax or a fake doesn't necessarily make it so.

(5) Only recently, have I been made aware of actual accounts of
people having had run-ins with six-fingered aliens. If you don't
believe me, go listen to the Real Audio files on the Art Bell
website. Simply type...Art Bell - Linda Moulton Howe...and
listen to the files. You're bound to hit the ones where a woman
discusses having seen a six-fingered alien close-up while
walking her two attack dogs, and a former military man describes
the _autopsy_film_of_a_six-fingered_alien_ which was used in a
briefing on the subject of UFOs sometime during his military
career. You probably won't believe your ears.

But I thought I'd let you know.

-- Michel M. Deschamps





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                             Russian Ufologists?

From: Philippe Piet van Putten <abp1@uol.com.br>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 19:43:11 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 09:01:03 -0400
Subject: Russian Ufologists?


Hello everybody !

I am trying to check some data concerning the controversial films
of Operation Sverdlovsk-Midget (TNT's UFO documentary on the
Secret KGB UFO Files) and the involvement of Military Unit 67527
in the retrieval of an alleged crashed saucer in Berezovsky,
Russia (march 1969).

I would like some assistance in order to contact russian
researchers

- Veniamin G. Vereschagin (author of "UFOs in the USSR")

- Tiurin Avinsky

...and also film analyst Sergey Goncharev.

Always,
In Tune

Philippe Piet van Putten
abp1@uol.com.br
brasil@pufori.org







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                      Old VTOL Aircraft and 'Saucers'?

From: Philippe Piet van Putten <abp1@uol.com.br>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 19:56:53 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 09:04:49 -0400
Subject: Old VTOL Aircraft and 'Saucers'?


Dear colleagues and friends,

I continue gathering audio-visual material on the first VTOL
aircraft, but I'm having hard times to find good footage on...

- Donald de Lackner's DH-4 Heli Vector;

- Hiller's Flying Platform (amazing);

- PAM 100-B

- Williams's WASP (Flying barrel).

Those of you living in the USA have any suggestions as to where
to find good suppliers?

All info is welcome.

Best

Philippe Piet van Putten
abp1@uol.com.br
brasil@pufori.org








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                            Alfred's Odd Ode #272

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:54:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 22:23:10 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #272

Apology to MW #272 (For September 26, 1998)

I have a mind and I can dream of saucers, then (unscratched and
clean), that hover in our night time skies though _training_
forces down cast eyes! Taught our blindness early on, taught
perhaps that right is wrong; most a-cringe beneath the lash --
we fight for what we touch or catch! Though true that we're
refined in struggles, we don't HAVE to break our knuckles; we
can STILL have ethics, see? We can COP! It makes us free! And we
don't cop! Our science blind, it struts around too proud,
confined; pontificates it has the answers -- ridicules our
culture's cancer.

Make too many, pick and choose -- selecting from the multitudes
. . . them that cower and obey for crumbs of bread to save their
day. Feed them rules to take on faith, tell 'em it moves
mountains, Babe! Make them fund your righteous war against
abortion's less-is-more. And that's the ticket bothers them --
that less restricts their choices, then. Folks aren't hungry,
make demands (demanding more respect), and then -- the white
bread world crumbles down, elitist folk start wearing frowns,
losing wealth like falling spiders -- grinning justice spreading
wider!

Many persons reach and scratch for all that they can touch or
catch. They're not safe, but cannot know it; few make good, and
most will blow it. They are not the chosen people -- chosen by
themselves 'neath *steeples* they have built, and made contrived
to further ends they make survive.  These ends have all been
misconstrued; reality has come unglued; it _won't_ matter in the
end who had what and what pretends. It _won't_ matter who was
rich, it won't count your mom's a bitch -- Only lonely
friendless know what hells await the thought control.

It's you controls the entropy, and THAT'S YOUR VALUE, can't you
see? All the rest accepts the flow of universal warps and glows.
It's _always_ been the work you'd do; they make it so you're
never through; then you won't have time to think, to ask some
questions -- raise a stink. Ask them why they don't pay taxes --
ask them why the market crashes. Ask them why the children
starve while dogs and cats get caviar. Ask them why we're not in
space. Ask them to explain disgrace. Ask them why the goose's
gravy ain't been like the gander's lately.

It all describes a party line to keep, in place, their loot
confined. All that loot and all that power keeping their sweet
lives in towers swept by winds most never see with eyes cast
down and _from_ bruised knee. . . This is why they hide the
saucers, drill for oil, or pump up knockers. This is why they
obfuscate, sully faith, or play on hate. This is why the right
holds sway to do it's will and have it's way. This
is why we'll stay _alone_ upon our _rock_ we shan't call _home_!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Restore John Ford!

--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 12 September>

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.







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                Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 10:11:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 22:45:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo


>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:00:38 -0300

>>From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:29:43 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo
>>>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:55:20 -0400

>>>>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:28:57 -0500 (CDT)
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>The notion that Haut put out the release on his own is absurd as
>anyone who has spent time with him and his wife discussing these
>matters, as I have , would know.

So says you. Why should anybody rely on your
assessment of anybody's character when Marcel lied to
you repeatedly and you didn't catch on (and you failed to do
your homework by checking his personnel file), and Gerald
Anderson not only lied to you repeatedly, but also presented
you with a forged telephone bill which you thought was as
genuine as the MJ-12 documents?

>Don't forget he was a
>bombardier on 35 missions over Japan in WW 2. He dropped the
>instrument package just before the explosion of one of the 2
>atomc bombs tested at Operation Crossroads in l946. There was no
>admonition.

So what? That's totally irrelevant.

>How in the world could he have made the release
>after hearing the FW identification?

I never said he made the release _after_ hearing the Fort Worth
identification. In fact, I said he apparently hadn't heard the
Fort Worth identification, which is why the release was made. I
also said that, had he heard about the Fort Worth
identification, the press release might have been drastically
different.

>More research by
>proclamation..

I didn't proclaim anything. I advanced the idea that perhaps
Haut isn't being truthful when he says Blanchard ordered the
release, that maybe Haut made the release on his own initiative
and doesn't want to admit it. The idea makes sense, which is
probably why it confused you. The idea still makes sense.

>And don't forget the debunkers still haven't explained how the
>wreckage was found "last week " could have been a Mogul found
>June 14 and left in all its splendordor by a sheep rancher.

Yes indeed. Some newspapers said June 14th, and some said "last
week." I happen to think the more reliable date is the one that
is more specific, the June 14th date. In fact, in the context of
the newspaper articles, it appears that Major Marcel himself was
the source of the June 14th date. You, of course, choose the
"last week" quote because it serves your purpose to do so. It
doesn't make you automatically right simply because it's what
you want people to believe. Jeez, talk about research by
proclamation. You proclaim the "last week" quote to be accurate
-- end of story.

>If there had been only one balloon as decribed by Story Changer
>Cavitt, then it would have been what was brought into Roswell by
>Brazell and there would have been no reason for Marcel to go to
>the crash site.

Yeah, well, I'm not convinced that Brazel brought _any_ of the
debris to town with him. As you well know, some of the
backchannel wire service communications on the story say he
didn't bring any of it with him. I'm sure not willing to take
_your_ word for it that he did.

>What convoluted nonsense

Hmm, so you keep saying. Sounds like another proclamation
to me.

>especially when we
>can't ignore the testimony of Judd Roberts, Frank Joyce, Loretta
>Proctor, other Brazell neighbors, his son etc..

Why _can't_ we ignore their testimony?

Let's just take Brazel's son, Bill, as one example. He claims
all sorts of things that are rather sensational in nature. But
he also claims that Bessie Brazel wasn't at the ranch. The
newspaper accounts put her at the ranch, and she says she was at
the ranch, and not only helped her father pick up the debris,
but also now says the debris depicted in the Roswell photographs
looks like what she picked up back in 1947. So, where did the
newspapers get that information if she in fact wasn't at the
ranch? In fact, Bessie, the other children, and their mother all
lived at the ranch when school let out for the summer. But Bill
Brazel, who _didn't_ live at the ranch, says Bessie, the other
children, and their mother weren't there. I doubt that Bill had
_any_ involvement with the Roswell incident at all. I also doubt
there is any truth to his claim that he picked up pieces of the
debris from the ranch after the incident had blown over, pieces
he claims were later confiscated by the Air Force following some
loose talk in a bar. Yeah, right. Sure they did.

And while we're on the subject of the ranch, we might as well
address the matter of Mac Brazel's being held in "jail" at the
Roswell Army Air Field (RAAF).

The "evidence" supporting this claim is rather dubious. After
all, Bessie, who was at the ranch, as no recollection of her
father being gone for more than a day. Just because certain
witnesses say Mac Brazel was in jail doesn't make it so. And
it should be kept in mind that the Foster Ranch was remote.
Allegedly, when Mac Brazel showed some of the debris to his
_nearest_ neighbors, they were unwilling to travel back to the
ranch with him because it was such a long ride. It's likely that
Mac Brazel didn't get into town but once a week, if that. Also
keep in mind that the reason Mac Brazel didn't do anything
with the debris when he first found it on June 14th was because
he hadn't heard any of the stories about the silvery, metallic-
looking flying discs, until he went into Corona on Saturday,
July 5th. There was no radio or telephone at the ranch. It was
a remote location, and it seems highly doubtful that even his
closest neighbors saw him on a regular basis because of the
long distances involved. While it might be the impression of
the witnesses that Brazel wasn't around for a while after the
incident blew up, I'd be willing to bet that impression stems
from the fact that Brazel simply didn't get to town that often.
Of course, those who wish to exaggerate the entire Roswell
non-event are likely to see it differently.

>all given long
>before Roswell became a household name. Mogul doesn't fit and
>all the nasty attacks won't make it fit.

Sure Mogul fits. It fits very well. All the witnesses with _any_
credibility at all described basically the same thing, balsa
wood and aluminum foil, and symbols right where we would expect
to find the reinforcing tape with the meaningless, pink-purplish
symbols on it. Only the balsa wood wasn't balsa wood, and the
aluminum foil wasn't aluminum foil, and both were nearly
indestructible a la Major Jesse A. Marcel. Yes indeed, Mogul
fits too closely for _your_ comfort.

Robert Todd





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   Sep > Sep 26

                             Re: Roswell Reward

From: bourdais gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 16:45:00 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 22:48:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell Reward

> From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:59:43 EDT
> To: updates@globalserve.net
> Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

> >From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
> >Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:29:43 EDT.
> >Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:47:12 - 0400
> >Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

> The next day, the "eager beaver" had the decidedly uncomfortable
> experience of knowing that a top AAF general was having a press
> conference at the Pentagon about - his press release.  Walter
> Haut may have spent the next 50 years trying to forget, or make
> hay, out of what started out as a harmless public relations
> stunt for the base.

> Bob Young


If this were the true story, Walter Haut would have felt a
little more than "uncomfortable". I imagine he would have been
kicked out of the army immediately, which was not the case. I
also imagine he would have got a penalty since, in both theories
under discussion, Mogul or UFO, it would have been a breach of
top secret operations. Would anyone expert in military matters
tell us the kind of penalty he would have been risking : how
much time in prison ?

In my two short meetings with Walter Haut in July 1995, he told
me that he did not remember exactly how he got the text to type
and release to the press. It fell upon him on a busy morning, he
typed the release, carried it to the radios and newspapers, and
forgot it. Shortly after, people were instructed not to say a
word about this, and nobody did.

The idea that he would have issued this as a sort of joke, or
just because he was excited about it, makes no sense at all. If
Marcel suggested that, he must have said that casually, or
perhaps he just avoided to elaborate and reveal too much about
the real operation.

Haut insisted twice that that there was a very tight discipline
on that base, the base of the atomic bombers, and that Colonel
Blanchard would never have decided such an explosive press
release alone. The testimony of Lorenzo Kent Kimball actualy
confirms that supposition regarding Colonel Blanchard. That
makes sense to me.

So we are back to the same question: why did they give, however
briefly and vaguely, this astounding information?

Gildas Bourdais






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                    Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk

From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 15:11:07 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 22:42:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk


>From: Michel M. Deschamps <739411@ican.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk
>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 01:20:23 -0400

>>Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 21:26:06 +0100
>>From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk

>>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 23:09:17 +0000
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Roswell Alien Autopsy Film Junk

><snip>
>
>I, for one, am 200% sure the alien autopsy is real and here are
>the reasons why:

>(1) Most people familiar with the Roswell Incident (including
>the supposed hoaxer of the film) would have known that the
>bodies that were reportedly recovered near Roswell in 1947 _did
>not have six fingers_, only four!!! So anyone reporting this
>so-called _autopsy_ film as being that of a Roswell alien would
>immediately be called a fraud or a hoaxer for that one and only
>reason!

Yes, that would apply _if_ the supposed hoaxer _was_ familiar
with the Roswell incident. But if we take a close look at the
footage we can conclude the hoaxer(s) didn't know jack about the
incident, militairy procedures nor medical procedures! For
example: The holding of the autopsy-scissors is as fake and
unproffesional as the fact the militairy simply forgets to 'pick
up' those rolls of _highly_important_film_ at some filmmakers
house!

>(2) What about the eye coverings that were removed by the
>_doctor_ performing the dissection? No one knew about the
>existence of these coverings until the late Col. Philip Corso
>mentioned it in his book. If it was mentioned elsewhere, I am
>not aware of it. I've read a lot of books and reports about
>Roswell, including the late Leonard Stringfield's Status Reports
>on other Crash/Retrievals. I've never come across any mention of
>these eye coverings.

Let's not forget Corso made those statements AFTER the
autopsy-film. So anyone could make claims like that!

>(3) This is not an autopsy; it's a dissection. An autopsy is
>performed in order to determine the cause of death. Obviously,
>the cause of death, in this case, was the crash of the vehicle
>itself, whether it impacted into the rock or collided with a
>similar vehicle in mid-flight. Whoever was doing the dissection
>must have been briefed about such events. Otherwise, he would
>not have been brought in to do the procedure.

>And I'm sure that this was not a one-time thing. There are many
>other instances where as much as 12 little bodies have been
>recovered from a single crashed saucer. So it wouldn't be too
>surprising to me to find out that dissections would be performed
>on more than one body, and at different stages.

>For example: One body would be left intact, showing the outward
>appearance of the creature. Another might show the internal
>organs, both respiratory and (if present) reproductive organs.
>And in the case of this alien dissection, every internal organ
>and tissue would be removed for the purpose of study. Pure and
>simple.

I agree with you on one thing, there probably _have_ been
autopsies in real life, the Santilli-film is just _not_ it...

<snip>

>(5) Only recently, have I been made aware of actual accounts of
>people having had run-ins with six-fingered aliens. If you don't
>believe me, go listen to the Real Audio files on the Art Bell
>website. Simply type...Art Bell - Linda Moulton Howe...and
>listen to the files. You're bound to hit the ones where a woman
>discusses having seen a six-fingered alien close-up while
>walking her two attack dogs, and a former military man describes
>the _autopsy_film_of_a_six-fingered_alien_ which was used in a
>briefing on the subject of UFOs sometime during his military
>career. You probably won't believe your ears.

The truthful Art Bell said so...c'mon now Michel, there's a lot
of info available that _shows_ Linda and Art are somewhat hasty
with their conclusions. Remember the JPL-employee that
alledgedly saw color pics of the 'martian face' was a fake, so
was the statement of the guy that was alledgedly flying over
Area51, so...what _is_ your point?

>But I thought I'd let you know.

>-- Michel M. Deschamps
>739411@ican.net

Just curious to know....

Andy Denne






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                    Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk

From: Stephen Lewis <stephen.lewis@tsl.state.tx.us>
Date: 26 Sep 1998 10:03:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 03:53:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk

> From: Michel M. Deschamps <739411@ican.net>
> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk
> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 01:20:23 -0400

Howdy Listers and M.M. Deschamps,

Please forgive my "newbee" interjections. If you wish to reply to
me personally please reply ONLY to me thru this email address-
mail to: elfis@ccsi.com

Thanks.

I was at the Connecticut UFO Conference (UFO Experience) where
they 'premiered' the Santilli film with running commentary by
Linda Howe some time back. I was skeptical and dissinterested
then and I still am now - of alleged crashed saucers and
pickeled aliens. To me Roswell is a lame duck case, there can be
no resolution. I applaud people with the patience and
discriminatory ability to weed thru its morass of details but
feel it will ultimately not pay off. The strength of the reality
behind UFO phenomena, IMHO, resides in no single case but in the
dirth of much more reliable cases which already exist.

That said, you will find my brief observations below.

> I, for one, am 200% sure the alien autopsy is real and here are
> the reasons why:

> (2) What about the eye coverings that were removed by the
> _doctor_ performing the dissection? No one knew about the
> existence of these coverings until the late Col. Philip Corso
> mentioned it in his book. If it was mentioned elsewhere, I am
> not aware of it. I've read a lot of books and reports about
> Roswell, including the late Leonard Stringfield's Status Reports
> on other Crash/Retrievals. I've never come across any mention of
> these eye coverings.

I know of a couple of abductees who have alleged knowledge of
the Big Black Slant Eyes being Coverings as far back as 1991
(George & Shirley Coyne of MUFON for instance). This same
suggestion was made visually in the film 'Fire In The Sky' about
the (inaccurately portrayed) Walton experience.

> (4) When I looked at the pieces of debris on the table,
> especially the _control pads_, I noticed how easily the man
> picked up one of them with a single hand, as though it had no
> weight to it!? The way it came off the table tells me that it
> practically weighed nothing. Did anyone else notice that?

Yes, but I also noticed the testimony of skeptics who contend
these control panels _closely_ resemble modern (just released
that year) computer interfaces but with the additional finger
locations. Yes, this could be reverse engineering _or_ clever
marketing by the makers of this interface.

> Why go through all that trouble and produce (in great detail)
> something which was obviously never mentioned (or reported)
> before, that would automatically be labeled a hoax?! I haven't
> seen any proof at all that this film is a hoax. Calling it a
> hoax or a fake doesn't necessarily make it so.

You are right, there is no proof this is a hoax, however there
is absolutely no evidence this is real either. _Why_? $$MONEY$$
The producers/distributors of this piece of controversy do not
care whether it is real or not. _Why_? For the hell-of-it. Just
to see how good a job of confusing and distracting people they
can do.

> (5) Only recently, have I been made aware of actual accounts of
> people having had run-ins with six-fingered aliens. If you don't
> believe me, go listen to the Real Audio files on the Art Bell
> website. Simply type...Art Bell - Linda Moulton Howe...and
> listen to the files. You're bound to hit the ones where a woman
> discusses having seen a six-fingered alien close-up while
> walking her two attack dogs, and a former military man describes
> the _autopsy_film_of_a_six-fingered_alien_ which was used in a
> briefing on the subject of UFOs sometime during his military
> career. You probably won't believe your ears.

Yes I am sure there are reports like you describe, but were they
reported BEFORE the film release. I know of an alleged showing
of this footage to Japanese UFO buffs prior to the mainstream
distribution but once again, this was reported after the release
of the film and with no hard evidence for the alleged
presentation.

For some dreamtime examples of Post-Santilli twelve-fingered fun
see the latest issue of my zine here:

http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/

Twelve Spooky Fingers - Adam Gorightly:
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6DT.htm#12sf

Jeffery Lewis' commentary on Spooky Fingers:
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL6/e6DT.htm#jlcom


> -- Michel M. Deschamps
> 739411@ican.net

SMiles Lewis
mailto:elfis@ccsi.com

http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin





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   Sep > Sep 27

                            Re: KGB Crashed Disc

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:00:44 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 04:03:33 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Crashed Disc


Forgive the beating of a dying (or perhaps dead) horse. However
I viewed the tape of the show very carefully and have come to
several conclusions contrary to some of the posted comments.

With me at least, it's important to go back and study the film,
not once or twice but a number of times. I am not as quick to
see and hear things the first time around as some of you guys
trained to pick these things up quickly and accurately the first
time around.  Geese, Louise, I can't imagine how you experts do
it... Anyway...

First and foremost is the crash of the object itself. There were
a number of posts which posed the question of how the (sic) disk
could bury itself so deeply into the earth. It did not.
According to the commentary and the computer simulated crash,
the object did break up during the several impacts, leaving only
a small portion in the ground.

Comment was made on the guard contingent. Some posts questioned
why the guards were facing toward the object instead of facing
outward. There were two groups of military personnel, one which
was involved in picking up debris and the second appeared to be
concerned with guard duty only, and these men were facing
outward, AK's pointed in the correct direction.

Regarding the military guards and their AK's ... the soldiers
appeared to be quite casual in their handling and pointing of
these weapons. To my mind at least, this demonstrates not a lack
of caution, but rather a familiarity, with the tools of their
trade.  For example, when I hunt deer with my buddies, I always
point my weapon in a carefree manner, not paying any attention
to the barrel direction. This is because I am very familiar with
my weapons of choice. The proof of this is the FACT that in the
45 years I have hunted small game, I've never killed anything,
including my buddies.

Comments were posted regarding the fact that the rear of this
object had not been filmed and/or the film shown. The rear of
this object was filmed by a second cameraman who was seen to
walk behind the object and shoot film. The story line stated
clearly that this particular film was not available. So there.

With respect to the autopsy (or dissection), I noticed something
which I could not understand because I remember a critique of
the "Roswell Autopsy" made by a surgeon. In that case, a doctor
being interviwed, pointed to the fact that the surgeon in that
film held the scissors incorrectly. It should be held by thumb
and middle finger, with the index finger then free to "point"
the scissors. This is supposed to give better control and
accuracy in directing the instrument properly.

I noticed that in the KGB autopsy, the cutting scissors were
handled the same way as in the Roswell film. Are both surgeons
mishandling or is this correct procedure?

I am not a physician. Of course, if you were to observe the cars
I drive and the quality (or lack of same) of my life in general,
you would know this instantly. I will however, ask some
physicians the question myself, as I tend to have doubts over
the veracity of virtually anything seen on the telly. I learned
this lesson when I was shocked to find that Howdy was a puppet.
Forkina sons of birch trees fooled me once... aint gonna happen
a second time. Not me. Uh uh. No way. And I can prove it. I
voted for Dole.

I hope this clears up any questions in this matter so that we
can all spend time asking the question, "God, The Universe and
Everything?" I have been told the answer is 43. I am somewhat
skeptical, as I heard this on TV recently.

Jim Mortellaro,
M.B.A.,
Ph.D,
M.O.U.S.E. (President, Mickey Mouse Fan Club)





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   Sep > Sep 27

                         Re: Salon Magazine Article

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 98 10:36:17 PDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 04:00:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Salon Magazine Article


>Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 23:34:09 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Salon Magazine Article
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:11:37 -0400
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Salon Magazine Article - List Only

>>Source: http://www.salonmagazine.com:80/it/feature/1998/09/22feature.html>

>>Salon Magazine

>>SALON | Sept. 22, 1998

>>After Decades Of Debunking And Naysaying, Why Have
>>Academics Invited Aliens Into The Ivory Tower?

>>Ufology

>>by Christina Valhouli

>>Take us to your professor.

><magnum snip>(no one is going to miss it anyway)

>This has to be the _dumbest_ article on Ufology that I have seen
>in years... maybe ever (ranks with Howard Blum's book 'Out
>There' or Curtis Peebles WATCH THE SKIES in terms of erroneous
>information and misinterpretation).

>Mack is the father of ufology?

>_Give_me_a_break_!

>Jacobs is his son? (Doesn't she know that Jacobs came first? The
>son is the father to the man?

>The Roswell incident was the result of an academic experiment?

>The Roswell incident grew to the point where it affected Gerald
>Ford in 1966? (He lent his support to pressure in Congress to
>have an independent review of the UFO situation, not because of
>the Roswell crash---which no one paid any attention to until
>1978 -- but because a number of his constituents, in particular
>around Hillsdale, MI, had seen UFOs and had been told they say
>"swamp gas")

>This is a fine example of wht happens when you start with
>nothing but a point of view and then select evidence and write
>in a way to support that view (UFOs are excrement, abductees are
>deluded, some professors need ufology in order to get rich and
>famous, and paranoia abounds).

Bruce,

Yes, the Salon piece is rubbish, written by a hack with naught
but ignorance and prejudice to guide her. In other words, your
standard mainstream-media treatment of ufology.

On the other hand, there is a bright side. Whenever I read
something like this, I think as follows: Here I am reading about
something I know about, and the writer knows nothing about it.
How do I know, when I am reading about something I know nothing
about, that the writer knows anything about it?

It makes for healthy skepticism.

Jerry Clark






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                    Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 11:49:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 03:57:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:45:08 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Santilli Film Silly

>Dear Neil Morris, Bob Young and all,

>Neil:

>Regarding Santilli's claim of having the Roswell autopsy film
>"light blasted"... Why bother? True, it does tend to make the
>film look more erie but has no practical or beneficial purpose.
>On the contrary, I'd think keeping normal skin tones would be
>would be paramount in presenting what is _supposed_ to be
>authentic documentary footage and the publics' first 'real' look
>at an alien being! To suggest that the film is over exposed to
>the point of losing detail because of something that Santilli
>did AFTER the film was processed years ago is to imply that the
>film was okay to begin with. So why screw with it? Unless, of
>course, he was trying to alter the image to fit the general
>public's perception of what documentary footage from the 40's
>was SUPPOSED to look like...

We've been over this subject so often, and it's really a dead
issue anyway. But I have to make a couple of points:

You assume that this is, indeed, the first such procedure being
recorded, yet it appears that the "doctors" taking part in the
procedure have done this before. There is also a big difference
between documenting and event and documenting a procedure, and
the impression that I've gotten from the alleged cameraman's
statement is that he was documenting the event and not trying to
create a record of the specifics of what they found.

All this being said, the validity of the Santilli "film" has
been called into serious doubt because some of the alleged
actors who appear in the "Tent Sequence" have been identified
and if part of this alleged evidence has been hoaxed there's
little reason to have faith in the rest of it. The researchers
who were involved in this are all extremely frustrated with
Ray's reluctance (or inability) to provide meaningful evidence,
so this entire matter is moot as far as UFOlogy is concerned.

As you may be aware, Robert Kivait is working on a follow up
program (I believe for FOX) that will feature a number of UFO
hoaxes, and the AA "film" is prominent among them (from what
I've been able to determine).

>As far as changes in density due to selective push processing by
>hand as you maintain.... Processing of motion picture film isn't
>usually done by hand, but by a continuous feed roller transport.
>At the least, it would have been done on large stainless steel
>coils too big to use by hand. Besides, the cameraman would have
>no way of knowing which sections of film WITHIN a roll to push
>and which ones to avoid. Film destined for push processing is
>always separated by the roll which, as I understand it, he did.
>All the rolls shot in the "autopsy room" he felt were
>underexposed and were pushed accordingly in a group. Each entire
>roll would have been processed from one end to the other without
>interruption either on a continuous feed roller transport or an
>automated steel core "dip and dunk" common to that time period.
>Barring any increases is illumination (which would eliminate the
>need for push processing) variations in density would,
>therefore, have to be artificial in nature; perhaps created
>during a late night "light blasting" session?...

According to Ray, this "film" was in three minute segments, and
each would have been processed seperately. I would suspect that
a photographer in the field would not have a lot of equipment
and would have to process the rolls by hand in a developing tank
designed for the film in question. Since the alleged boxes had
developing instructions written on them, I would assume that
we're talking about processing each roll (from beginning to end)
in the same way. However, that would not rule out "pushing" each
roll differently.

> Of course, one could maintain that the processing, just like
>the shooting and lighting was very "hurried" and haphazard. But
>this just seems plain silly. Unless this was, like, the 100th
>alien autopsy and everyone was just getting sloppy, it makes no
>sense that EVERYTHING would be handled so poorly when it was
>such a singularly important event in history. And if security
>was such an issue, why give clearance to such a second rate
>camera man when you could run the same security risk with a
>better one? Certainly this wasn't the ONLY guy available...

Again, a lot of assumptions.

>Bob:

>The question isn't whether 16mm color film was available in the
>Soviet Union in the mid 60's. The question is whether there was
>16mm color NEGATIVE film available ANYWHERE. Negative isn't the
>same as the slide film you were describing even though, as Neil
>pointed out in another posting, you CAN squeeze a negative image
>out of reversal film after the first stage of developing. Not
>impossible but I think Neil would agree it wouldn't be very
>practical...

I suspect that Bob Shell may want to weigh in on this, but I
have no depth of knowledge regarding the history of film
development. But the issue of color negative "film" is being
raised has no connection with the AA "film", since it is
obviously black-and-white.

I would hope that we can keep the TNT's recent KGB/UFO program
and the Santilli AA "film" separate. The Santilli circus has
been argued to death and doesn't need to be revived unless
someone has something new to offer. The TNT special needs to be
analyzed further, but we need to informaton that is closer to
the source and not rely on the producer's presentation of the
"facts". The points you raise regarding the film that was
allegedly used are good ones that need to be addressed, but at
this point I don't know if the program is a valid representation
of the alleged evidence or not. Until we get more information,
we're discussing alleged "facts" that may be nothing more than
what the producer thought would be entertaining.

If anyone has an email address for the production company
involved in the KGB program, or email addresses for the
producers or the Russian investigators mentioned in the show, I
would be most interested. I have received comments from most of
the "experts", and they were not involved in the analysis of the
film in Russia. While they were shown segments of film and asked
for their comments for the show, the "evidence" has not been
presented separately for analysis. If this film has any
validity, we need to get the entertainment industry out of this
loop.

Steve






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                    Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:07:59 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 04:24:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk


>From: Michel M. Deschamps <739411@ican.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk
>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 01:20:23 -0400

Michel,

Not to seem argumentative, and I truly mean no disrespect for
your convictions on the Roswell matter, but for someone that is
200% sure you really give no "proof" to support your position.

For instance:

1) You claim that anyone familiar with Roswell would know about
the pertinent information regarding either 4 or 6 fingers of the
aliens. You also insist that no one knew about the "eye
coverings" of the aliens until the late Col. Corso mentioned it
in his book.

Clearly these two statements are in direct conflict. Either
everyone or only Col Corso had the goods on Roswell. Which is
it? I mean, why would everyone "in the know" be aware of the 4
or 6 finger information but NOT know about the eye coverings?
After all, the film clearly shows the same people were in the
room for the examination of both the hands and the eyes!

2) You insist that this is not an "autopsy" but is, instead, a
dissection.

I agree. Looks like a dissection to me. Santilli called it an
autopsy as did the cameraman. In fact, the first thing you wrote
in your reply to my article was:

"I, for one, am 200% sure the alien autopsy is real..."

Why call it an autopsy if you feel it's a dissection?

3) Your conviction that other "dissections" have probably taken
place is one that I share, also.

However, I base this on the _probability_ of other crashes.
After all, I don't have to be psychic to assume that another
airliner will crash in the ocean with no survivors in the near
future. I've seen no actual proof that other crashed saucers
exist. My feelings are simply based on the odds. Your statement
that there are "many other instances where as many as 12 little
bodies have been recovered from a single crashed saucer" smacks
of wishful thinking and not proof.

You wrote:

"Calling it (the Roswell film) a hoax or a fake doesn't
necessarily make it so."

I agree. Like wise, such wishful thinking doesn't necesarily
make it true, either.

4) You offer your observation of how light the control pads were
when someone removed them from the table.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Is this supposed to be
"proof" that they're real? Looks like proof, to me anyway, that
they were made out of styrofoam or balsa wood or plastic.

5) You mention that other people have run into 6 fingered aliens
and offer as "proof" that one need only listen to Art Bell's
Real Audio files. In fact, you pointed out that a former
military man describes the autopsy of a 6 fingered alien for a
briefing on UFO's.

Again, is it an autopsy or a dissection? Well. What can I say?
Second-hand and even first-hand accounts aren't proof. I'm not
saying that I don't believe them. I'm simply pointing out that
if I was lucky enough to have a close encounter of the third
kind, I'd have an impossible time convincing anyone about it
without some kind of physical proof.

And this is really the catch, here.

Even victims of rape or some physical attack quite often have
their wits about them enough to grab something, anything, that
will link them to their attacker. Considering how much people
are supposedly afraid of not being believed and how prevelant
the UFO subject is inregards to this very problem, I know I'd at
least steal  an alien ash tray or something on my way out. I
don't mean to make light of any victim's trauma about being
abducted. I DO believe that abductions and encounters exist and
that a fraction of these people are on the level. I'm just
pointing out that the _last_ thing we need is fraudulent
evidence such as the Santilli film to muck things up and make it
harder for these people to be believed.

6) You beg the question:

"Why go through all that trouble and produce (in great detail)
something which was obviously never mentioned before?"

Why, indeed. Maybe it has something to do with money?

More to the point, the article I wrote about the Santilli film
addressed the technical reasons why the film could not possibly
be genuine. These aren't my opinions based on loose
observations. These are facts that don't support the cameraman's
claims of how the film was produced.

In general, I believe the Roswell incident happened because of
the many witnesses and the history of the event. I believe that
film was shot of it because it makes sense that there would be
documentation. And the cameraman in question may, in fact, be
the actual cameraman that shot the film. But the Santilli film
is _not_ the real McCoy; not if you apply the methods the
cameraman insists were used under the conditions he insists
exsisted. If the film IS real, he would have been better off
keeping his mouth shut rather than elaborate on a vague memory
and risk this kind of scrutiny. Or, perhaps the cameraman is
telling the truth about how he did it, but Santilli's cameraman
didn't take note, figuring it wouldn't matter as long as the
footage looked old and archival. Now, the two don't mesh.

In fact, here is my challenge to Santilli:

Everyone that believes the film is real should go out, buy a
copy of the video and start making and selling copies of the
autopsy footage only, (not the leadins or narration). I can
guarantee it would not be long before Santilli's laywers filed
suit for copyright infringement. Why? Because he OWNS that
footage; something that is impossible to do with public domain
footage produced with US tax dollars. Even NASA's photos are
available for usage within public domain. All you have to do is
ask and they'll give you a free listing.

This might explain the sudden appearance of the Soviet footage.

Hmmmm...

Keep the faith, Michel. Objectively.

Roger Evans





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   Sep > Sep 27

                     Info Needed on 1967 Sudan Incident

From: Doc Barry <authority@webtv.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:17:01 -0700 (MST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 05:01:54 -0400
Subject: Info Needed on 1967 Sudan Incident


The following is taken from an extensive document I received. If
anyone has any information on the event referenced, please
contact me.

Excerpt:

"DIA document, dated August 17, 1967 out of Sudan, reads:

1. (U) Local press 17 Aug 67 reported that a satellite, cube
shaped, weighing approximately three tons discovered 3 August 50
miles from Kutum 1425N 2460E. Satellite described as made of
soft metal presumably light aluminum in oblong cubes measuring
two inches by one inch tightly fastened together and covered by
a silky material. Nationality not identified as no inscriptions
evident on outer surface. Local authorities in El Fasher have
photographs and with difficulty cut samples."

Any information on this would be appreciated. Thanks.  == Doc

~~~~~Get BREAKING news plus UFO/ET news - NOW - click on "What's Up
Doc?" www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518






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               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 15:08:01 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 04:41:01 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:35:56 -0400
>Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:31:52 -0400
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:50:42 -0500 (CDT)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
>>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>There is no compelling reason to think that the men and women
>>stationed at Roswell in 1947 were any different. I don't think
>>any of us envisions a base full of lip-zipped zombies walking
>>around for several days after the news of the recovery of a
>>flying disc made the local paper. So Henderson flies a plane
>>with a crate on it. A crewman asks Henderson, "What we got?"
>>Henderson says, "I don't know." Crewman says, "They didn't tell
>>you!" and then launches into banter, maybe gigging Henderson for
>>the next couple of hours, all the way to Ft. Worth, telling him
>>about the bodies he's "seen," which are now onboard.

>As you note, Henderson didn't see the bodies.

According to his wife and daughter, he _did_ say he had seen the
bodies, gave a description, and mentioned that they had been
packed in dry ice for preservation. His wife said he also
claimed to be out at the main crash site.

>Your scenario seems
>unlikely to me, though. If there's tight security, everybody on
>the plane might have gotten stern warnings just before boarding
>the flight. For all I know (and maybe somebody does know this),
>there could have been security types on the plane.

>It would be interesting, by the way, to know if people on the
>base joked about the Roswell incident, after the fact. First a
>press release, announcing a recovered disk, then a
>retraction...an intelligence officer who, allegedly, got carried
>away...I can see Walter Haut and Jesse Marcel getting ragged
>every time they showed up at the officers' club. Did that
>happen?

Not that I'm aware of, at least w.r.t. Marcel. In Marcel's
subsequent two service evaluations by Blanchard, Blanchard noted
that Marcel was respected by both his men and fellow officers.
No evidence of ragging here.

Haut was widely blamed and ridiculed in the press as being
responsible for the press release (though a few stories
indicated that Blanchard issued it after first being in
communication with Ramey). Marcel's name didn't come up at all
with regards to the press release. He was just the intelligence
officer who was assigned to the case, retrieved the "disk," and
took it to Fort Worth. I have yet to see a newspaper editorial
ridiculing him, as was the case with Haut. The newspapers did
mention that "the officers" at Roswell had allegedly received
"blistering" rebukes from Washington, but Haut was the only one
named as allegedly receiving two such phone calls. (Haut denies
receiving any such calls.) From what I've been able to see, Haut
(not Blanchard or Marcel) seems to have been made the scapegoat
for what happened. However, unless he read a lot of newspapers
back then, he wouldn't have even been aware of it.

When Marcel was first interviewed 30 years later, he also blamed
the press release on Haut, calling him an "eager beaver" PIO.
Robert Todd is currently trying to make hay on this. But in a
subsequent interview with Bob Pratt, Marcel said he had heard
differently, that maybe Blanchard had authorized it, and he
wasn't sure what had happened (Todd naturally doesn't mention
this). Later Marcel met Haut on two different occasions and they
compared notes. However, judging by Marcel's initial comments,
there was apparently some buzz that Haut was responsible. It was
also quite clear from Marcel's comments that he was highly
annoyed at the story leaking out back then. He spoke of
reporters going to his home and bothering his wife. Marcel at
the time had major responsibility for base security, and a year
before he played some key role in setting up security for
Operation Crossroads. So his annoyance didn't seem out of
character.

On the other hand, had Haut actually been responsible for
cooking up the press release, I doubt the matter would have
rested there. The story got far too much press coverage and
disrupted the chain of command clear up to Gen. Vandenberg in
the Pentagon. I suspect Haut would have been relieved of duty
pronto, maybe even court martialled. But I have yet to see any
evidence that he was actually reprimanded in any way. I also
have yet to see any indication that Haut is bitter about what
happened, although publicly he took most of the blame. However,
as I mentioned before, he may not have even been aware that he
had been scapegoated in the press.

Haut did leave the service the following April upon learning
that Blanchard was soon to be transferred to Fort Worth. Haut
says he did so because he didn't want to eave Roswell, and in
fact he has remained there ever since.

>Also -- not everybody blabs. Henderson didn't tell his own wife
>for years. Maybe he _would_ have kept his mouth shut on the flight.

<snip>

Dennis Stacy then "weighs in" with another typical unknowing
ranting diversion (TURD):

>>And the idea of compensation doesn't raise any red flags with
>>you? Then you're at least as unsuspecting and forgiving as you
>>are otherwise sensible. Could it possibly be that Brown's
>>obsession had anything to do with cashing in on Roswell's
>>newfound popularity, the same way that Anderson and Corso, and
>>who knows who else, tried to do? Regardless of whether he
>>actually participated in anything unusual or not? After all, he
>>was there and we weren't. But who are we to argue with the camp
>>cook?

There was a bit more to Brown than being the "camp cook" (see
below). And if Stacy would actually bother to read the
daughter's story, what Brown was allegedly obsessing about was a
special trust account for the guards that was supposedly set up
as payment to keep their mouths shut, but he wasn't getting his
share. His obsession was with finding the account. There was
nothing here about Brown "cashing in on Roswell's newfound
popularity" by writing a book or going to the media. But who are
we to argue with the camp kook? (ad hominem and bad pun duly
noted)

>Brown wasn't looking for money. I'm sorry that I didn't tell the
>full story. He was old when he started saying the government owed
>him something. He was sick, too, and his daughter thought these
>remarks were a kind of delirium. I may be remembering
>incorrectly, but I believe that, in any case, all this happened
>before Roswell was widely discussed. I do remember the daughter
>saying that she'd checked her father's military records after the
>Roswell furor began, because he'd talked from time to time about
>a flying saucer crash. She says she was astonished to see that
>he'd been at the very Roswell base everyone was talking about.
>That's when she started to take his story seriously.

>And as for Brown being a cook...Philip Klass and others have
>giggled at the thought of a cook guarding alien bodies.

They should go to the movies. In "Under Siege," it was the cook
(Steven Seagal) who was the closet Navy Seal and who
single-handedly retook the battleship from the evil and crazy
Tommy Lee Jones, Gary Busey, and their gang of terrorists. In
"The Search for Red October," it was the cook who was the closet
KGB agent shooting at the good guys when they tried to hijack
the submarine.

Beware the cook! They may seem harmless, but they weren't given
charge of the meat cleaver for nothing. 8^) On a more serious
note, see below.

>But I
>once had a chance to talk to a World War II-era army cook. (He
>was the stepfather of an ex-girlfriend of mine.) He said he was
>constantly ordered to do things you wouldn't expect cooks to do,
>including standing guard. He wasn't even qualified, he said, to
>do some of these things, like driving a general somewhere when he
>barely knew how to drive. From what I've gathered, it was and
>maybe still is standard military practice to "volunteer" people
>for jobs, simply because they're standing around and available.
>Not, of course, that this explains why random GIs would have been
>chosen for the most secret alleged operation in military history
>-- unless, of course, someone in charge of finding the guards
>knew Brown. Who knows?

The following should be mentioned about Melvin Brown's known
service record, something that Philip Klass and Karl Pflock
neglected to mention while they ridiculed the story. Like Steven
Seagal, there was more to him than "just a cook." While Brown's
1945 discharge papers (he then re-enlisted) do show him to be a
cook, they also show that he was an expert marksman, having
participated in several Pacific theater military campaigns and
for which he had received the bronze star. One presumes he was
decorated for combat and not his Army cooking. In short, he
apparently knew one end of a rifle from another and was
qualified to stand guard even if he was officially a cook and
not an MP.

Further, the story as told by his daughter was that he was first
out with the recovery crew in the desert (where he saw the
aliens packed in ice in the back of an ambulance or truck). A
recovery crew out on the desert for a day or two might very well
need a cook, who could also do double-duty as a guard because he
was a WWII combat veteran and expert marksman. Since security
would have tried to minimize the number of men who had knowledge
of what occurred, when he got back to the base, he was then made
to stand guard around the hangar rather than bringing in someone
fresh. In the meantime, some other schnook could do the base
cooking. I don't see anything inconsistent here at all.

David Rudiak







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   Sep > Sep 27

                         Re: Salon Magazine Article

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 06:21:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 05:04:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Salon Magazine Article


>Sep 1998 23:34:09 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Salon Magazine Article
>To: updates@globalserve.net

Dear Bruce (and list)

Hoo boy! Do I agree with you tonight!

>>Source: http://www.salonmagazine.com:80/it/feature/1998/09/22feature.html>

>>Salon Magazine

>>SALON | Sept. 22, 1998

>>After Decades Of Debunking And Naysaying, Why Have
>>Academics Invited Aliens Into The Ivory Tower?

>>Ufology>by Christina Valhouli

>>Take us to your professor.

><magnum snip>

By all means, look for yourselves!

>This has to be the _dumbest_ article on Ufology that I have seen
>in years... maybe ever (ranks with Howard Blum's book 'Out
>There' or Curtis Peebles 'Watch The Skies' ..

Bruce, prior to this offering by ms Valhouli, I never heard
of"Salon Magazine". Is it a publication in this country? (USA)

Maybe it results from the collective efforts of some journalism
majors with wealthy parents.

In any case, I have never seen more opinion with less substance,
not with regard to messy UFO issues anyway.

For someone this bone-assed ignorant about the history of UFOs
to pontificate with such finality, leaves me so speechless that
I must seek the solace of another brown bottle of Oregon beer.

I thought Ted Mack was famous for the "Original Amateur Hour"
and had no idea of some UFO connection.

(I date myself)


>Mack is the father of ufology?

>_Give_me_a_break_!

I had hoped that Prof. Mack would say something like :

"Hey! I'm a really good psychiatrist, and I believe that these
abduction victims are telling the truth! "

But .. no. Professor Mack starts sounding more and more
like timothy Leary .. fueling every argument imaginable, that
ufology is composed almost entirely of nut-cases.

>Jacobs is his son? (Doesn't she know that Jacobs came first? The
>son is the father to the man?

I missed that one. I fell on my nose with the "father of
ufology" gig.

That's the nice thing about straw-men. They cannot get up and
punch you back in the nose. Cowards of every type, and both
sexes rely on this, most especially the ignorant and lazy ones .

The Roswell incident was the result of an academic experiment?
No need to go on. This sophomoric woman has had her say.

Lets move on.

Very best wishes

->Larry Hatch







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               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 14:11:44 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 04:45:28 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell
>Date: Fri, 25 Sep 98 10:40:22 PDT

>Dennis,

>I am at a loss to understand just about anything you're saying
>here. Of course people are different. Of course people, or at
>least some people, talk about things that are supposed to be
>secret, usually after the passage of time has convinced him that
>there's no harm either to the nation or to themselves in doing
>so. This happens all the time outside UFO contexts. Apparently
>your hatred of the Roswell case is such that you have convinced
>yourself, if nobody else, that people always keep secrets and
>that only crazy ufologists think otherwise.


Jerry,

Haven't heard from you in awhile. Welcome back, even if it's
only to repeat one of your mind-reading mantras about my
"hatred" of Roswell, the other one being a "fear" that a UFO may
really be behind it.

In case you weren't paying attention, there is a context to the
issue of who can keep a secret, when, how, and for how long. In
the case of existing documents of the time, we're told that the
secret was kept by compartmentalization, need to know, and
high-ranking officers lying to their even higher ranking
superiors. Maybe that's the way it happened. Maybe it's not. I
happen to think that that's not the way it happened, and that
the contemporary documents and some accounts are at least
compelling indication of same. But I suppose I'm not allowed to
think this without an all-pervasive "hatred" of Roswell seething
through my veins.

For the record, Jerry, this is a UFO thread. I'm not actually
carrying a sandwich sign and picketing in front of the Roswell
UFO Museum out of my hatred (or fear) of Roswell -- in case you
hadn't noticed.

Here's an example of how the secrecy issue is routinely used, or
misused. For years now, one of the more dramatic moments of Stan
Friedman's canned UFO talk is the line, "Who says the government
can't keep secrets?", followed by the dramatic holding up of a
blacked out NSA document. The implication that what's blacked
out is secret information about UFOs is clear.

But as Tom Deuley has been telling us for almost as long -- and
he was there in the NSA at the time and saw many of the original
documents -- what's blacked out is information about NSA
intelligence gathering techniques and specific sources. But
Deuley might as well be pissing in the face of Hurricane
Georges, for all the field listens to his view.

So people are different. Sometimes secrets are routinely kept,
sometimes they're not. One of my other points, in light of
accusations that the AF is still so concerned about Roswell that
they had to play around with the length of the sticks on Ramey's
floor, was in the context of the first sketchy book about
Roswell being published as early as 1980, damn near 20 years
ago. If some agency is still hellbent on covering up Roswell, it
seems arguable that they might have gone around at that time
visiting some of the major players, who journalists and other
like types might soon find out, and reminding them of their
security oaths, or the need to continue to "stick together" and
maintain the cover up. But there is precious little evidence of
this concern on the part of the AF or anyone else.

So the issue of leaking 50 years later is not the only issue or
aspect -- it needs to be considered in the context of whether
any pressure was applied in this day and age to _maintain_ the
cover up. After all, you're either still trying to cover
something up after all these years, or you're so demonstrably
casual about it that you're not. My illustrations were by way of
merely asking, which is it?

If you've followed the entire thread, you ought to be aware of
the totality of the argument, whether you agree with it or not.
If you only read the one exchange you replied to, however, then
I could see how you might come away with the impression you did,
although the bit about my hatred of Roswell still seems a bit of
a telepathic stretch on your part.

I agree with most of the issues you and Greg raised about
mainstream media attitudes re ufology, but that, too, needs to
be put in the context of past experience, probably as in "once
burned, twice shy."

For example, to the best of my memory, it was the same NY Times
science reporter, John Noble Wilford, who devoted a lengthy
article to the MJ-12 documents when they first publicly surfaced
in this country. In light of subsequent developments re same,
could he have felt that he might have been had on what
originally seemed to be a huge UFO breakthrough? It's at least
likely, although I'll probably be branded a media apologist
merely for suggesting it. In my own limited experience, I had no
trouble whatsoever publishing a feature article in Smithsonian
Air & Space, "When Pilots See UFOs," in the wake of the big JAL
Alaska UFO sighting. The same article was reprinted in either
Pilot or Flight magazine, I don't remember which now. Presumably
before my hatred of Roswell and fear of UFOs got the better of
me, I even won a Donald E. Keyhoe Journalism Award for a
six-part series on UFOs and government secrecy that I did for
Omni magazine.

As a group, journalists are probably just as lazy as lawyers and
carpenters. Good ones have no problem selling their editors an
idea, witness C. D. B. Bryan's "Close Encounters of the Fourth
Kind," published by what is arguably the most prestigious
publishing house in the country. On the other hand, Birnes &
Corso didn't have any problem finding a publisher, either.

Let me reiterate what I've said here before: while the attitude
of the NY Times may be lamentable, it doesn't matter. UFOs have
already won the battle for the American heartland. There are
more pro-UFO books, articles, TV specials and videos than at any
time in history. Friedman, Randle, Jacobs and Hopkins have never
been in more demand.

So what in God's name is everyone whining about? That there
isn't a mass march afoot on Wright-Pat even as we speak to
recover the alien bodies and give them a decent burial outside
Roswell, where they belong (once we figure out which site[s]
they came from)?

As for future secrecy leaks in the existing climate, imagine
this one. Some guy rings up the Boston Globe and says he can
_prove_ the AF doesn't have any debris or bodies from Roswell.
Having read The Day After Roswell and The Threat last summer
during all the Roswell hullabaloo, while on vacation in Cape
Cod, the reporter thinks for a minute and says, "Hm, how you
gonna do that?"

If any Roswell lovers out there have a clue, however
hypothetical, I'm all ears. I could use the money.

>Thank you, by the way, for restraining yourself from the further
>trashing of Jesse Marcel, Sr.'s, good name. Maybe there's hope
>after all.

>Jerry Clark


Of course there is. After half a century, the AF must have
mountains of technical information and analysis of the recovered
debris and bodies on hand. Now that 50 years have gone by
without any physical evidence or convincing documentation being
leaked, a decisive breakthrough can only be imminent in our
lifetime, almost by definition. Maybe someone will chop off an
alien digit and turn it over to the Rolling Stone, although the
National Inquirer would probably pay more. I mean, who can keep
a secret for a hundred years?

When that happens, BTW, I'll be the first to contribute to the
fund for a bronze statue of Marcel that will inevitably follow,
no doubt the first in the growing Roswell Hall of Fame.

The word, Jerry, is not hatred, but cynicism. But that's another
long story, and one that didn't happen overnight. At the moment,
I can't think of anyone or thing that I spend active time hating
(or particularly fearing, either, for that matter, although you
appear to know my subconscious better than I do), although every
time I drive past it I take a dimmer and dimmer view of the mall
that recently went up in my neighborhood. Since it's got a
cineplex, Borders, Starbucks, OfficeMax, Whole Earth Provisions
& Food, however, I try to look on the bright side. Come to think
of it, I'm not getting any fonder of Texas summers in my late
(very late) youth, either. Nor do I feel it necessary to
routinely and derogatorily refer to someone as "Waterboy," while
otherwise dispensing fatherly advice to the list as to how we're
all to behave to one another, and when and to whom apologies are
called for. If you're going to reproach others, then it behooves
you to be above reproach, whatever the (perceived or otherwise)
provocation. Love him or loathe him (note the option), Waterboy
has probably lost, mislaid or thrown away more government UFO
documents than most of us will ever see, let alone read or
study, in a lifetime.

For now, my vote for Most Equananimous (is that a word?)
Ufologist of the Year goes to -- Greg Sandow. The man (or is it
boy?) just can't be ruffled by the printed word.

Dennis






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   Sep > Sep 27

                             Re: Roswell Reward

From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 02:13:10 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 05:17:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell Reward


>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 16:45:00 +0200
>From: bourdais gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Roswell Reward

>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>>Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:59:43 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>>From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
>>>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:29:43 EDT.
>>>Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:47:12 - 0400
>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>The next day, the "eager beaver" had the decidedly uncomfortable
>>experience of knowing that a top AAF general was having a press
>>conference at the Pentagon about - his press release. Walter
>>Haut may have spent the next 50 years trying to forget, or make
>>hay, out of what started out as a harmless public relations
>>stunt for the base.

>>Bob Young

>If this were the true story, Walter Haut would have felt a
>little more than "uncomfortable". I imagine he would have been
>kicked out of the army immediately, which was not the case.

Nonsense. Nobody would have gotten kicked out. Haut certainly
didn't need to rush to Blanchard with every newsworthy story he
wanted to put out. Surely he had the authority to issue a press
release. The commander of a bomb group had far more important
matters to attend to, and he was preparing to go on leave
anyway, which he did. _That's_ how "astounding" he considered
the incident.

More importantly, although Haut obviously considered the story a
newsworthy event, and released the press release, it is
abundantly clear that his information came directly from Major
Marcel, who is cited as having released the information over his
authority. So it would appear that, ultimately, Marcel was
responsible for the information in the press release. Col.
Blanchard needn't have been involved in the release at all,
relying instead on his PIO, Haut, and his intelligence officer,
Marcel. I also think it is apparent that Blanchard deferred to
Marcel on the "identification" of the debris, which, again, won
out by default because neither Marcel nor Blanchard -- nor any
of the other officers on Blanchard's staff -- had ever seen a
radar target before, and the silvery, metallic- looking debris
found on the remote New Mexico ranch matched the description of
the silvery, metallic-looking "flying discs," a term which had
yet to be defined.

>I
>also imagine he would have got a penalty since, in both theories
>under discussion, Mogul or UFO, it would have been a breach of
>top secret operations. Would anyone expert in military matters
>tell us the kind of penalty he would have been risking : how
>much time in prison ?

Again, nonsense! Nobody at Roswell Army Air Field (RAAF) knew
anything about Project Mogul, and there was _nothing_ among the
debris that would have identified it as having come from the New
York University (NYU) Balloon Group, much less Project Mogul. It
didn't have a reward tag on it saying, "This is the property of
Top Secret Project Mogul." At best, none of the RAAF personnel
had any reason to link the debris to Alamogordo Army Air Field
(AAAF) and the balloons launched from there until Wednesday,
July 9th, when the military personnel from Watson Laboratories
stantioned at AAAF held the balloon demonstration for the press.
It is absolutely clear that the Watson Labs military personnel
thought the NYU balloons had been responsible not only for the
Roswell incident, but might also account for at least some of
the "flying disc" sightings around the area. In fact, some of
the NYU balloons launched from AAAF in June and July 1947 _were_
reported as "flying discs."

Whether or not the Watson Labs military personnel from AAAF
called General Ramey's staff at some point to tell them the
equipment was theirs simply is not known. According to newspaper
accounts reporting on the July 9th balloon demonstration, the
Watson Labs personnel hadn't heard anything about the Roswell
incident until they read about it in the newspapers, which
wouldn't have been until _after_ Haut had already made the press
release. Up to that point, RAAF personnel had no means
whatsoever for linking the debris to Project Mogul.

>In my two short meetings with Walter Haut in July 1995, he told
>me that he did not remember exactly how he got the text to type
>and release to the press. It fell upon him on a busy morning, he
>typed the release, carried it to the radios and newspapers, and
>forgot it. Shortly after, people were instructed not to say a
>word about this, and nobody did.

Perhaps he simply doesn't remember how the release was made.
Nevertheless, it seems absolutely clear from the newspaper
accounts that Haut and Marcel collaborated on the press release,
which itself said was released under authority of Major Marcel.
Blanchard, as base commander, simply would not have involved
himself in the release, but instead would have delegated that
responsibility to Haut and Marcel. I have no doubt that
Blanchard would have relied on Marcel's judgement as to what
details should be released. He was, after all, the base
"intelligence" officer.

>Haut insisted twice that that there was a very tight discipline
>on that base, the base of the atomic bombers, and that Colonel
>Blanchard would never have decided such an explosive press
>release alone. The testimony of Lorenzo Kent Kimball actualy
>confirms that supposition regarding Colonel Blanchard. That
>makes sense to me.

>The idea that he would have issued this as a sort of joke, or
>just because he was excited about it, makes no sense at all. If
>Marcel suggested that, he must have said that casually, or
>perhaps he just avoided to elaborate and reveal too much about
>the real operation.

Even if Blanchard _did_ order that a press release be issued, so
what? He wouldn't have involved himself in the wording of the
release, again, relying on the judgement of Haut and Marcel.

>So we are back to the same question: why did they give, however
>briefly and vaguely, this astounding information?

It's only "astounding information" if you insist on equating
"flying disc" with "alien spaceship," as you apparently do. The
term "flying disc" had no real meaning back in July of 1947.
Trash can lids and automobile hub caps also were called "flying
discs" during that period. Perhaps Mr. Bourdais would suggest
all the incidents involving trash can lids and automobile hub
caps also involved "alien spaceships." The press release made
_no_ mention of alien spaceships. And the debris was
"identified" as one of the silvery, metallic-looking flying
discs only because it was silvery, metallic-looking, and hadn't
walked to the remote New Mexico ranch where it was found. In
this instance, the "flying disc" equates with silvery,
metallic-looking debris from a radar target, and _not_ an alien
spaceship. _All_ the newspaper accounts, many of which were
based on information Marcel himself had supplied, described
debris from a radar target, _not_ debris from an alien
spaceship.

The proponents of the alien spaceship explanation for Roswell
insist on equating the term "flying disc" with an alien
spaceship. If it was just the remains of a radar tatget -- even
if Blanchard and his staff didn't know exactly what it was --
there was no reason _not_ to issue a press release. And there
was no reason RAAF couldn't issue such a press release without
consulting with General Ramey first. Let's stop making the
Roswell incident more mysterious than it really was.

Robert Todd





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                          Throw A Stone Anywhere...

From: Melanie Mecca <natural.state@erols.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 23:34:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 05:10:53 -0400
Subject: Throw A Stone Anywhere...

...and you'll hit someone who has either had a close encounter
or been abducted - so I've heard. Lately, it seems to be true.
I've been raising 11 puppies and just lurking, but in the past
few months some people have been telling me some interesting
tales. Thought I'd throw it on up here - a few examples of the
dictum that "they're everywhere." I mentioned 'The Subject'
casually to two people at work after they remarked about a prize
possession - the 'Tell the Truth About Roswell' bumper sticker I
picked up at the 50th.

These are quotes, about 90-95% word for word:

One man said "Oh, I definitely am a believer - ever since I had
a close sighting in New Hampshire in 1985. I was driving toward
Nashua when my wife and I heard this incredible hum - I'll never
forget the sound of it. I looked toward the sound and saw these
bright lights. Stopped the car by the side of the road to see.
There was an enormous cigar-shaped craft with several brilliant
lights, about 50 feet above the ground just over the trees - the
main light in the center was like a black light, ultraviolet
with a bright neon green shade kind of outlining it. It's very
hard to describe. I saw smaller white lights around the sides of
the craft, they could have been windows. It moved slowly as we
watched it for about two minutes - then whoosh! it zoomed away
so fast we could barely see it go. They're here all right!"

The other man said nothing at that time, but he invited me to
lunch a few days later, and told me about his experiences with
the greys. He said that in his late 20s he began having
frightening, traumatic memories and thinking he was crazy. He
had memories stretching back to when he was very young. After a
year or two he picked up Missing Time and a few other books -
could not read them all the way through because they scared him
so much. He alluded to certain details of the experiences he
remembered, such as floating in the air into a craft, medical
procedures, etc, etc. The content certainly sounded in line with
similar documented encounters, and his emotional affect was
strong - he wanted to tell me because he knew I would listen,
but he couldn't bring himself to say very much. He said he can't
deny it because he has too many strong memories, but he tries
hard not to think about it as he is afraid he will become
unstable - he's not interested in probing further at this point.
This man is, to the best of my knowledge, a sound individual who
happens to have 30+ people working for him. He is known to be
exceptionally level-headed.

Today a couple stopped by to pick up their puppy. They are very
kind people who had a son (now 11 years old) late in life - the
father was a Navy pilot, then Continental and American Airlines
pilot, and is retired. As we were chatting, I asked him "did you
see any anomolous sights while you were flying?" He said "Once.
I was flying in a small plane with three other pilots and
another friend. We were flying near [air force base in Arizona -
name escaped me] and listening to the air traffic control tower.
We saw this unusual, very bright light and we were trying to
eliminate various objects that it could be - couldn't pin it
down to anything we knew. Then all of a sudden, it appeared very
close, flying right in front of us, matching our speed. Looked
like a very, very bright light, we could not make out the
structure's shape. It made some incredible maneuvers - jumped
from one side of our plane to the other, flew 360 degrees right
around us, stationed itself above us, below us, all around our
place, very close. We were astounded. The air traffic
controllers had it on radar and were asking us "are you seeing
anything?" We said "Yep!" (he chuckled) and were describing the
antics of the UFO as they saw it jumping around on radar. The
[Air Force base] scrambled jets - as they approached our
position, the UFO took off - we estimated at 8-10,000 miles per
hour, and zoomed out of sight. Soon after that we heard the
tower at Palm Springs asking the pilots in that vicinity if they
were seeing the craft, and we heard them say that they were. We
reported the sighting. The next day, some funny guys came to see
us, wanted to know exactly what we saw and pressed for details.
The next day we asked the tower more about the radar, and they
clammed up - shut us right down. The government definitely
doesn't want this information out in the public. What we saw was
not any kind of airplane - no airplane, or pilot, could do what
we saw it do. It was not from this earth."

There you have it, some vignettes from the DC 'burbs. As for me,
every night lately for the last six weeks I've gotten up in the
middle of the night to take my dog out (6-7 meals a day to
support lactation, makes her restless at night), I look up, and
there .... are the same old stars that were there the night
before. Y'all have some better luck, wontcha?

Melanie Mecca





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   Sep > Sep 27

                    Re: Old VTOL Aircraft and 'Saucers'?

From: Dave Everett <deverett@idx.com.au>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 16:10:20 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 05:45:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Old VTOL Aircraft and 'Saucers'?


>From: Philippe Piet van Putten <abp1@uol.com.br>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Old VTOL aircraft and "saucers" - Help requested
>Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 19:56:53 -0300

>Dear colleagues and friends,

>I continue gathering audio-visual material on the first VTOL
>aircraft, but I'm having hard times to find good footage on...

>- Donald de Lackner's DH-4 Heli Vector;

>- Hiller's Flying Platform (amazing);

>- PAM 100-B

>- Williams's WASP (Flying barrel).

>Those of you living in the USA have any suggestions as to where
>to find good suppliers?

I don't live in the USA but I'll give it a shot ;)
The best internet resource is at:

http://www.shreve.net/~jnuts/fly/

You will find all of the platforms listed above there, plus links
to sellers of footage of some of those devices.

Dave Everett






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   Sep > Sep 27

               Kal Korff Receives Russian UFO Fragments in TNT

From: Kal K. Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 03:26:36 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 06:06:16 -0400
Subject: Kal Korff Receives Russian UFO Fragments in TNT


TotalResearch FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Kal Korff Receives Metal Fragments for Analysis from Alleged
Russian 'UFO' Crash in TNT Special


September 27, 1998

SAN JOSE, CALIFORNIA -- TotalResearch announced today, that
their President and CEO, critically-acclaimed investigative
journalist and author, Kal K. Korff, has received for analysis
five purported fragments from an alleged UFO 'crash' near
Berezovsky, Russia, in 1969.

"After careful research and investigation, I am pleased to
announce that I have received for analysis, five fragments from
an alleged UFO crash that we are told took place in 1969 in
Russia. This case first came to international prominence
recently when the TNT network aired just a few weeks ago, a
90-minute, made for television, primetime special claiming that
this event took place, the source of which purportedly comes
from previously-classified Soviet KGB intelligence files on the
subject of UFOs." Korff said in a short statement while visiting
one of his offices in San Jose, California.

"Before I send these fragments in for analysis, I intend to
follow up first on the background and provenance of these
samples, and then it is my intention to have them analyzed both
at a private university laboratory and at a U.S. government
laboratory. I believe in using both civilian and government
facilities as controls, and that this is the proper and
responsible way to handle having these samples analyzed."

While Kal Korff has already investigated and exposed several of
the claims in the TNT KGB-UFO television special as being
"inaccurate,  and outright erroneous," he remains intrigued by
the samples.

"The metal samples are of interest to me, because they are
tangibles that can be tested, measured, quantified and analyzed.
We should be  able to tell exactly what these pieces of metal
represent, and most importantly, whether or not they were
manufactured on this Earth by  human technology. I look forward
to learning the results of the analyses, whatever they reveal."

When Korff was asked whether he thought the fragments were from
a 'real' UFO, he declined to speculate, saying, "How would I
know? Right now, I have no opinion one way or another. I remain,
for now, neutral in this matter and will make sure these samples
get  analyzed properly. That's the best I can do, and this is
the responsible thing to do."

"As soon as the lab results are in, I shall immediately make
them public, and then it is my intention to contact the
producers of the KGB-UFO TNT special and have a conversation
with them about this whole affair."

"That conversation should prove interesting." Korff said with a
smile.

Kal Korff will be discussing his receipt of the fragments over
the next few weeks via postings on Glen Campbell's UFOMind web
site, and on his regular, syndicated bi-weekly radio show,





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                   David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings

From: Kal K. Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 03:20:49 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 06:00:55 -0400
Subject: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings


Dear List,

Over the past several weeks, many of you have written me
concerning David Rudiak and his numerous pro-ET Roswell postings
that appear on various internet-based newsgroups and forums.

While the overwhelming sentiments expressed by all of you is
that Roswell is an emotional, if not religious issue for Rudiak,
I must draw the line when several of you ask me, blatantly,
questions like "Why don�t you (Kal) do something about this jerk
(Rudiak)?" Or, comments like "Why don�t you expose Rudiak next,
he�s an embarrassment to what little is left of the UFO field
that is respectable."

While I more or less agree you, and I appreciate the
solicitation, folks, and I have certainly done my fair share of
exposes on some of the most famous UFO cases of all time (that�s
why I laugh and truly feel sorry for people who still endorse
the alien autopsy case, Glen Dennis, Frank Kaufmann, etc.,) I
want to make one point perfectly clear:

I am not ufology�s 'policeman,' and I have no interest at this
time in participating in the upcoming (and I must admit pretty
devastating expose) of David Rudiak that is being prepared.

I am stating here for the record, that I _tried_ to answer
Rudiak�s numerous rants over a year ago, but stopped cold when I
discovered an email that he had sent to someone intimating that
both Bob Todd and myself are somehow 'in cahoots' with the U.S.
Government over Roswell, and that we�re part of the imaginary
'cover-up' that Rudiak�s emotionalism compels him to type
thousands of words about.

Furthermore, in examining Rudiak�s postings to others on the
web, when I realized that he has been gullible enough to fall
for such hoaxes as the Shulgen memo and other such bogus
evidence, it became obvious to me that further correspondence
with him was pointless and would only 'play' into his hands.

Therefore, I will _not_ participate (at this time) in the expose
of David Rudiak that is currently being prepared, however, I
will forward my data file on him and forward any and all
information I receive, simply because I do not wish to waste my
time trying to engage him in a debate that serves no logical
purpose.

One canot debate 'religion' scientifically, especially with
someone who�s a fanatical 'believer,' so I am not interested.

While Rudiak _talks_ about being 'objective' and puts on a
pretty good venier, it is refreshing that many of you seem to
finally have seen through him. However, I really can�t help you.
As I have said, repeatedly, I am _not_ 'in cahoots' with _any_
element of The United States Government, nor am I a 'UFO spy,'
CIA 'agent' or any other such nonsense.

As hard as it is for Rudiak (and other paranoids) to accept
this, I am simply a UFO Researcher -- one who has spent 25 years
studying reports of the subject, and yes, I have even had a UFO
sighting that today continues to baffle me.

I have always Advocated the serious and scientific study of UFO
reports, and I believe this argument not only to be entirely
valid, but _independent_ of Roswell.

In other words, the 'case for UFOs' is independent of Roswell,
has nothing to do with it, and there was such a 'case for UFOs'
_before_ Roswell was ever known -- and there will continue to be
no matter what additional hokum evidence continues to stink up
the Roswell case beyond its� already putrid levels.

I am sorry, but I must refuse to have anything to do with people
who hold such paranoid, fanciful, and delusional misconceptions
about me and others.

One can�t reason with such people, although I look forward to
reading the expose on Rudiak, as long as it serves to clarify
and straighten out for the public record, which person(s) have
the accurate data and the most credible arguments.

One final thought about Mr. Rudiak - I am dismayed to see some
of the information in the draft of this expose. Clearly, some of
this is very personal in nature, and while it _might_ have a
bearing and certainly explain why it is that Rudiak so
emtionally clings to Roswell, and blindly defends Major Jesse
Marcel to the hilt (despite his demonstrably false claims) -- I
would prefer that the expose be confined to Rudiak�s ROSWELL
arguments, rather than what his co-workers in XXXXXXXX have to
say about him, his personal (alleged) hang-ups, predisposition
towards believing in conspiracies, ad nauseum, etc. -- which are
cited throughout this draft of this expose.

I think there�s enough data contained in Rudiak�s own words to
justify a fair and balanced review of his claims, so please
leave the rather embarrassing personal information out of the
report.... otherwise, I think you all are no better than Rudiak
is.

There�s no need to stoop to his level.

I hope I have made my position clear, and as I have told several
of you, I promised I would make this public so there can be no
'misunderstanding' as to where I stand on this issue.

I am not interested in 'debating' Roswell anymore. There�s
NOTHING to discuss! Until if and when pro-ET Roswell 'believers'
come up with a single shred of hard evidence that can be
independently verified indisputably by anyone wishing to do so,
Roswell is a WASTE OF TIME!

Let Don Schmitt and others continue to drag the field of ufology
down with their shameful exploits...those who stay on this
bandwagon have no room to complain when their 'ship' sinks, and
discover that the boat was full of holes to begin with and never
carried a single life raft.

Respectfully yours,

Kal K. Korff - Author, 'The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don�t
Want You to Know' -- now getting ready to go into its� third
printing -- because the public likes and agrees with the book,
that what caused Roswell was really Project Mogul -- Just like
Bob Todd happened to discover well before _anyone_ (sorry, Karl
Pflock!) else did.






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                    Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:52:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:29:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk


>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 11:49:02 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk

>All this being said, the validity of the Santilli "film" has
>been called into serious doubt because some of the alleged
>actors who appear in the "Tent Sequence" have been identified
>and if part of this alleged evidence has been hoaxed there's
>little reason to have faith in the rest of it. The researchers
>who were involved in this are all extremely frustrated with
>Ray's reluctance (or inability) to provide meaningful evidence,
>so this entire matter is moot as far as UFOlogy is concerned.

Steve and Updates,

Philip Mantle who was trying to follow up this information
(which I too had been offered) had, at the last contact from
him, failed to verify any of the claims being made. My own "gut
feeling" as after the initial aproach to me was that this was
nothing more than some "industry back stabbing" and "mischief
making" on behalf of an EX-employee.

Neil.





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   Sep > Sep 27

                         Re: Salon Magazine Article

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 98 10:41:45 PDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:08:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Salon Magazine Article


>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 06:21:33 -0700
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Christina Valhouli et.cie.

>>Sep 1998 23:34:09 -0400
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Salon Magazine Article
>>To: updates@globalserve.net

>Dear Bruce (and list)

>Hoo boy! Do I agree with you tonight!

>>>Source: http://www.salonmagazine.com:80/it/feature/1998/09/22feature.html>

>>>Salon Magazine

>>>SALON | Sept. 22, 1998

>>>After Decades Of Debunking And Naysaying, Why Have
>>>Academics Invited Aliens Into The Ivory Tower?

>>>Ufology>by Christina Valhouli

>Bruce, prior to this offering by ms Valhouli, I never heard
>of"Salon Magazine". Is it a publication in this country? (USA)

I am a regular reader of Salon (salonmagazine.com), an on-line
publication of political and cultural reporting and commentary,
mostly from a left-of-center perspective. (There is an article
about it in last week's Newsweek. It got a lot of attention
recently for its controversial reporting on an affair House
Judiciary Chairman Henry Hyde had back in the 1960s.) It is
ordinarily, in my reading of it, an excellent publication, so
the idiotic piece on academic ufologists was to me a particular
disappointment.

On the other hand, my favorite publications (including The New
Republic, The New York Times, and The New York Review of Books)
_always_ disappoint me in their UFO coverage.


Jerry Clark






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                    Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 11:37:23 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:33:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 11:49:02 -0400
>Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 03:57:03 -0400
>Subject: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk


Steve and list,

I agree 100%. The Roswell film is so flawed on so many levels
that it hardly warrants the precious space allowed here in the
listing. However, so many people's perceptions and beliefs about
the film have been based, for so long, on conceptual theory or
interpretations of on-screen errors in medical procedure that I
thought I'd approach it from an angle that could actually be
proved.

My position is that the appearance of the footage simply doesn't
match the outcome one would expect if the cameraman is to be
believed about the conditions, film and camera used.

Regarding Santilli's assertion that the film came to him in 3
minute segments. Dumb. 100 foot rolls of 16mm film only last 2.5
minutes, unless it was shot at 16-18 frames per second instead
of the usual 24. Such a reduction in film rate would be
noticable on screen after transfer either as flicker, strobing
or a speed increase in body movement; none of which is evident.
Based on my experience, the film appears to have been shot at 24
frames per second and transfered at that rate.

Perhaps you might think I'm spitting hairs. Maybe Santilli MEANT
to say 2 1/2 minutes and maybe he was just rounding up to the
nearest whole number. Maybe the conditions the camera man
claimed were different than what his dim recollection would
allow. Maybe he was sincere but in error about the equipment
used.

Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe...

I believe in UFO visitation, but unless people claiming to be
'in the know' such as Santilli or the cameraman give accurate
information, then they leave themselves and their product open
to this kind of scrutiny. Or do we just ignore such inaccuracies
because we want to believe the film is real?

From a processing standpoint, it's just plain silly to think of
any motionpicture cameraman processing 25 100 foot rolls of film
by hand when he would have access to a military lab; or, for
that matter, any motion picture lab, military or not. Security
would be no problem since processing is, by its very nature,
done in the dark. No one would know what was on the rolls unless
they threaded them up on a projector and viewed them. At best,
the cameraman would only have to wait about 3 hours for the
results.

Given that option, is he _really_ going to try and process that
much film by hand?

Besides, it would seem foolish that the cameraman would bring
everything neccesary to push-process the film in the field, but
not everything necessary to shoot it correctly exposed in the
first place. How about a light and an extention cord? Talk about
doing things the hard way!

And while processing the film is one thing, drying it is
something else. Where is the cameraman going to hang 25 hundred
feet of film to dry? Outside a 10 story window and let it flap
in the breeze so it can accumulate dirt and dust? Or did he just
HAPPEN to have a drying drum with a 25 hundred foot capacity in
his travel bag that he keeps for top secret, last minute
documentation assignments?

Beyond that, I've never seen instructions on the side of any
motion picture film for developing by hand. (though it is
included in film for still photography).

Please. Enough with the hand-processing idea. The film is a
fraud; done in by the cameraman's own claims of execution. I
believe in the Roswell incident but not the 'evidence' presented
by Santilli.

Regarding my added response to the Soviet film. I agree about
keeping topics separate, though I give no more validity to the
Soviet film than I do to the Roswell film. I was simply trying
to save space with my dual response. However, your point is well
taken. I'll keep things separate in the future.

later,

Roger Evans





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   Sep > Sep 27

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 98 10:36:12 PDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:11:52 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 14:11:44 -0500 (CDT)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell
>>Date: Fri, 25 Sep 98 10:40:22 PDT

>But as Tom Deuley has been telling us for almost as long -- and
>he was there in the NSA at the time and saw many of the original
>documents -- what's blacked out is information about NSA
>intelligence gathering techniques and specific sources. But
>Deuley might as well be pissing in the face of Hurricane
>Georges, for all the field listens to his view.

Dennis, I don't really see the relevance of this to what we're
discussing. This is, as I think you would agree on reflection,
a stretch. In any event, I have no problem with what Deuley,
whom I respect and who I agree merits listening to, says here.
It doesn't help us resolve the Roswell-related issues we have
been discussing, however.

>I agree with most of the issues you and Greg raised about
>mainstream media attitudes re ufology, but that, too, needs to
>be put in the context of past experience, probably as in "once
>burned, twice shy."

Nah. You're giving mainstream media too much credit for the lazy
-- and at times bigoted -- way they've covered the UFO
controversy. Press ridicule of the subject began within days of
the Arnold sighting and has continued since.


>For example, to the best of my memory, it was the same NY Times
>science reporter, John Noble Wilford, who devoted a lengthy
>article to the MJ-12 documents when they first publicly surfaced
>in this country.

Nah, it was William Broad. All Broad did was collect a bunch of
quotes, including one from me (and he didn't even get that
right). There was zero investigative reporting. It was the
crummiest kind of hackwork, of the sort traditionally reserved
for UFO issues.

> In light of subsequent developments re same,
>could he have felt that he might have been had on what
>originally seemed to be a huge UFO breakthrough? It's at least
>likely, although I'll probably be branded a media apologist
>merely for suggesting it.

I'll leave it to others to decide whether you're an apologist or
not, but I doubt that anyone would ever accuse you of giving
ufologists slack, just their critics. In various forums Broad
has made clear his disdain for the UFO subject.

>Let me reiterate what I've said here before: while the attitude
>of the NY Times may be lamentable, it doesn't matter.

Of course the opinion of the NYT matters. I'm surprised that you
are this naive. Or maybe you're just being disingenuous.

>UFOs have
>already won the battle for the American heartland. There are
>more pro-UFO books, articles, TV specials and videos than at any
>time in history. Friedman, Randle, Jacobs and Hopkins have never
>been in more demand.

So what? This is the naivest kind of MUFONspeak, from which I
would have thought you, of all people, would be immune. What
does the number of truck drivers, hairdressers, pop stars,
postal clerks, or freelance writers who believe in UFOs have to
do with anything? The UFO question is not going to be solved
until elite opinion, such as represented in the NYT, Science,
and Nature, deems it legitimate and devotes the expertise,
funding, and other resources necessary to an investigation.

>So what in God's name is everyone whining about? That there
>isn't a mass march afoot on Wright-Pat even as we speak to
>recover the alien bodies and give them a decent burial outside
>Roswell, where they belong (once we figure out which site[s]
>they came from)?

As I said in an earlier posting, sometimes I think it is
anti-Roswell discourse like this, not the Roswell craft itself,
that hails from outer space. In suggesting you suffer from
"hatred" of the Roswell case, I was charitably trying to give
you some sort of motive for the uncharacteristic lapses in
reason I've seen in your postings on the subject. I'll take your
word for it that my accusation is unfounded. That said, I have
no clue as to what would make you write nonsense like the above.

>>Thank you, by the way, for restraining yourself from the further
>>trashing of Jesse Marcel, Sr.'s, good name. Maybe there's hope
>>after all.

>>Jerry Clark

>The word, Jerry, is not hatred, but cynicism. But that's another
>long story, and one that didn't happen overnight. At the moment,
>I can't think of anyone or thing that I spend active time hating
>(or particularly fearing, either, for that matter, although you
>appear to know my subconscious better than I do), although every
>time I drive past it I take a dimmer and dimmer view of the mall
>that recently went up in my neighborhood. Since it's got a
>cineplex, Borders, Starbucks, OfficeMax, Whole Earth Provisions
>& Food, however, I try to look on the bright side. Come to think
>of it, I'm not getting any fonder of Texas summers in my late
>(very late) youth, either. Nor do I feel it necessary to
>routinely and derogatorily refer to someone as "Waterboy,"

Let's see here, Dennis. Waterboy Todd called me a liar, a
charlatan, a true believer, a Goebbels clone, and God knows what
else. (If I had the desire, or strength, to do so, I could go
back and add considerably to that list.) And you -- surprise,
surprise! -- remained silent. But you did manage to get
indignant over m relatively gentle suggestion that he carries
water for the Air Force. Give me a break, please. On the other
hand, if Waterboy Todd is your idea of a rational, reasoned
voice in the UFO debate -- and you give us no cause to think
otherwise -- you're welcome to him.

Jerry Clark






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 27

                 Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 10:39:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:04:36 -0400
Subject: Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings


>From: Kal K. Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 03:20:49 EDT
>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings

>Dear List,

>Over the past several weeks, many of you have written me
>concerning David Rudiak and his numerous pro-ET Roswell postings
>that appear on various internet-based newsgroups and forums.

I'm sure Rush Limbaugh gets a similar kind of mail, and I'm sure
it's as narrow a band, if _not_ narrow band width (as the mail
you have only _said_ you receive).

>While the overwhelming sentiments expressed by all of you is
>that Roswell is an emotional, if not religious issue for Rudiak,

A quick leap to the bizarre and absurd, insuring an appearance
of your trademark behavior early on when the casual reader is
more than impressed with Rudiak's rationality, and unsettled
with the obvious ax _YOU_ have to grind.

>I must draw the line when several of you ask me, blatantly,
>questions like "Why don=92t you (Kal) do something about this jerk
>(Rudiak)?" Or, comments like "Why don=92t you expose Rudiak next,
>he=92s an embarrassment to what little is left of the UFO field
>that is respectable."

"Next?" Mr. Korff. I think the smart money is on how flawed
_all_ your previous expos=E9s have truly been!

>While I more or less agree you, and I appreciate the
>solicitation, folks, and I have certainly done my fair share of
>exposes on some of the most famous UFO cases of all time (that=92s
>why I laugh and truly feel sorry for people who still endorse
>the alien autopsy case, Glen Dennis, Frank Kaufmann, etc.,) I
>want to make one point perfectly clear:

If you do, sir, it will be the first time!

>I am not ufology=92s 'policeman,' and I have no interest at this
>time in participating in the upcoming (and I must admit pretty
>devastating expose) of David Rudiak that is being prepared.

Me next! I want a Kal Korff expose' NEXT! And like a scurrilous
politician you announce your _un-availability_ for candidacy --
securing yourself a position on the ballot you have _invented_.
Policeman, indeed . . . .!

>I am stating here for the record, that I _tried_ to answer
>Rudiak=92s numerous rants over a year ago, but stopped cold when I
>discovered an email that he had sent to someone intimating that
>both Bob Todd and myself are somehow 'in cahoots' with the U.S.
>Government over Roswell, and that we=92re part of the imaginary
>'cover-up' that Rudiak=92s emotionalism compels him to type
>thousands of words about.

Now why would that make you "stop cold"?!? I should think a
rational person would put the hammer down! This is a vague
admission of your lack of real credibility, and makes _more_
credible your alleged association with an unelected leadership
that I have heard _you_ accused of!

>Furthermore, in examining Rudiak=92s postings to others on the
>web, when I realized that he has been gullible enough to fall
>for such hoaxes as the Shulgen memo and other such bogus
>evidence, it became obvious to me that further correspondence
>with him was pointless and would only 'play' into his hands.

This is your spin, Mr Korff, and goes Nowhere!

>Therefore, I will _not_ participate (at this time) in the expose
>of David Rudiak that is currently being prepared, however, I
>will forward my data file on him and forward any and all
>information I receive, simply because I do not wish to waste my
>time trying to engage him in a debate that serves no logical
>purpose.

I think that reads that you _can't_ debate him on the issues and
will try smarmy smear tactics instead!

>One canot debate 'religion' scientifically, especially with
>someone who=92s a fanatical 'believer,' so I am not interested.

ROTFLMAO! Should read "I'll just embarrass myself in a
discussion of this, and lose sales on my prevaricating book, so
I better cut my losses and quit NOW!

>While Rudiak _talks_ about being 'objective' and puts on a
>pretty good venier, it is refreshing that many of you seem to
>finally have seen through him. However, I really can=92t help you.
>As I have said, repeatedly, I am _not_ 'in cahoots' with _any_
>element of The United States Government, nor am I a 'UFO spy,'
>CIA 'agent' or any other such nonsense.

You saying this should make it so I suppose! <g>.

>As hard as it is for Rudiak (and other paranoids) to accept
>this, I am simply a UFO Researcher -- one who has spent 25 years
>studying reports of the subject, and yes, I have even had a UFO
>sighting that today continues to baffle me.

I'm sick of hearing about your alleged sighting, which probably
never occurred anyway, and that you employ as a loss leader to
confuse readers about your sincerity.

>I have always Advocated the serious and scientific study of UFO
>reports, and I believe this argument not only to be entirely
>valid, but _independent_ of Roswell.

>In other words, the 'case for UFOs' is independent of Roswell,
>has nothing to do with it, and there was such a 'case for UFOs'
>_before_ Roswell was ever known -- and there will continue to be
>no matter what additional hokum evidence continues to stink up
>the Roswell case beyond its=92 already putrid levels.

>I am sorry, but I must refuse to have anything to do with people
>who hold such paranoid, fanciful, and delusional misconceptions
>about me and others.

Be sure to cross me off your list! <g>.

>One can=92t reason with such people, although I look forward to
>reading the expose on Rudiak, as long as it serves to clarify
>and straighten out for the public record, which person(s) have
>the accurate data and the most credible arguments.

. . .Let's _you_ out!

>One final thought about Mr. Rudiak - I am dismayed to see some
>of the information in the draft of this expose. Clearly, some of
>this is very personal in nature, and while it _might_ have a
>bearing and certainly explain why it is that Rudiak so
>emtionally clings to Roswell, and blindly defends Major Jesse
>Marcel to the hilt (despite his demonstrably false claims) -- I
>would prefer that the expose be confined to Rudiak=92s ROSWELL
>arguments, rather than what his co-workers in XXXXXXXX have to
>say about him, his personal (alleged) hang-ups, predisposition
>towards believing in conspiracies, ad nauseum, etc. -- which are
>cited throughout this draft of this expose.

Korff fans the bottom of the irrelevant!

>I think there=92s enough data contained in Rudiak=92s own words to
>justify a fair and balanced review of his claims, so please
>leave the rather embarrassing personal information out of the
>report.... otherwise, I think you all are no better than Rudiak
>is.

I would put Rudiak in a personal pantheon before I removed you to the
can outside! I happily admit that I am no better than Rudiak, but I'm at
least three times the man _You_ are!

>There=92s no need to stoop to his level.

Can't! You're already there!

>I hope I have made my position clear, and as I have told several
>of you, I promised I would make this public so there can be no
>'misunderstanding' as to where I stand on this issue.

You are a piece of work, Korff. And not a very expensive piece.

>I am not interested in 'debating' Roswell anymore. There=92s
>NOTHING to discuss! Until if and when pro-ET Roswell 'believers'
>come up with a single shred of hard evidence that can be
>independently verified indisputably by anyone wishing to do so,
>Roswell is a WASTE OF TIME!

This is a little like requiring indisputable proof that the sun
will come up tomorrow. The waste of time is your celebration of
a myopic view of things, your lack of good faith support, and an
obvious lack of curiosity.

>Let Don Schmitt and others continue to drag the field of ufology
>down with their shameful exploits...those who stay on this
>bandwagon have no room to complain when their 'ship' sinks, and
>discover that the boat was full of holes to begin with and never
>carried a single life raft.

The holes are there because you and your ilk have dragged the
interested across the line of credulity so often they no longer
know or care what to think. You put the holes there!

>Respectfully yours,

>Kal K. Korff - Author, 'The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don=92t
>Want You to Know' -- now getting ready to go into its=92 third
>printing -- because the public likes and agrees with the book,
>that what caused Roswell was really Project Mogul -- Just like
>Bob Todd happened to discover well before _anyone_ (sorry, Karl
>Pflock!) else did.

Bob Todd -- a true paragon of rational balance, not fit to shine
Friedman's ufological shoes. . .

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 12 September>

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.







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   Sep > Sep 27

                 Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 11:19:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 18:51:14 -0400
Subject: Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings


>From: Kal K. Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 03:20:49 EDT
>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings

<snip>

>There's no need to stoop to his level.

>I hope I have made my position clear

On a toilet bowl.

That sums it up I am sure.

Serge Salvaille






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                 Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 98 11:38:25 PDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:19:35 -0400
Subject: Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings


>From: Kal K. Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 03:20:49 EDT
>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings

>Dear List,

>Over the past several weeks, many of you have written me
>concerning David Rudiak and his numerous pro-ET Roswell postings
>that appear on various internet-based newsgroups and forums.

This posting from this self-described "critically acclaimed
investigative journalist and author" (hereafter CAIJA) pretty
much epitomizes a whole lot of what's gone wrong with ufological
discourse, and so it merits a closer reading.

>While the overwhelming sentiments expressed by all of you is
>that Roswell is an emotional, if not religious issue for Rudiak,

Note the accusation here. Rudiak is not simply mistaken (as
he, like any of us on either side of the issue, could well be) but
suffering from emotionalism and maybe even some nebulous
religious commitment. Not also the utter absence of evidence for
such charges.

>I must draw the line when several of you ask me, blatantly,
>questions like "Why don�t you (Kal) do something about this jerk
>(Rudiak)?" Or, comments like "Why don�t you expose Rudiak next,
>he�s an embarrassment to what little is left of the UFO field
>that is respectable."

People don't just ask CAIJA questions. They ask him questions
"blatantly." The cheap slur that Rudiak is an "embarrassment" is
put in the mouths (or keyboards) of anonymous CAIJA
correspondents. In reality, Rudiak (right or wrong) uses
arguments that would strike most people as reasonable.

>I am not ufology�s 'policeman,' and I have no interest at this
>time in participating in the upcoming (and I must admit pretty
>devastating expose) of David Rudiak that is being prepared.

I take it this is supposed to be a threat of some sort. Produce
the damn report, if it exists, and let the rest of us judge how
"devastating" it is. If it's as "devastating" as the other
exposes we've seen of the Roswell case, it's pretty safe to
assume that Roswell will continue to be debated well into the
next century.

Why is "policeman" in quotation marks?

>I am stating here for the record, that I _tried_ to answer
>Rudiak�s numerous rants over a year ago, but stopped cold when I
>discovered an email that he had sent to someone intimating that
>both Bob Todd and myself are somehow 'in cahoots' with the U.S.
>Government over Roswell, and that we�re part of the imaginary
>'cover-up' that Rudiak�s emotionalism compels him to type
>thousands of words about.

"Rants," huh? Easier to call them rants than to answer them,
isn't it? So what if some crank intimated that "both Bob Todd
and myself [sic] are somehow `in cahoots' with the U.S.
Government"? Is there any ufologist of any consequent who at one
time or another hasn't been accused of being in the employ of
the U.S. government? I know I have; I am supposed to be a
"supersophisticated CIA disinformationer" according to Richard
Hoagland. Bruce Maccabee, pro-Roswell, has been accused
repeatedly of being a CIA agent. Kevin Randle, pro-Roswell, is
supposed to be in the pocket of AF intelligence. So what does
any of this have to do with anything?

>Furthermore, in examining Rudiak�s postings to others on the
>web, when I realized that he has been gullible enough to fall
>for such hoaxes as the Shulgen memo and other such bogus
>evidence, it became obvious to me that further correspondence
>with him was pointless and would only 'play' into his hands.

Why is "play" in quotation marks, by the way? Again, this seems
like a self-serving excuse to avoid taking on Rudiak's
substantive arguments. Call him a bunch of names, then flee the
scene.

>Therefore, I will _not_ participate (at this time) in the expose
>of David Rudiak that is currently being prepared, however, I
>will forward my data file on him and forward any and all
>information I receive, simply because I do not wish to waste my
>time trying to engage him in a debate that serves no logical
>purpose.

What "logical purpose" does your posting perform, since you are
dodging every single substantive issue that has been raised?

>One canot debate 'religion' scientifically, especially with
>someone who�s a fanatical 'believer,' so I am not interested.

Why is "religion" is quotation marks? Again, further slurs
without evidence or justification -- unless, CAIJA, you believe
that everybody who presumes to disagree with you is a "fanatical
`believer'". Why is "believer" in quotation marks, incidentally?

>While Rudiak _talks_ about being 'objective' and puts on a
>pretty good venier, it is refreshing that many of you seem to
>finally have seen through him.

Of course, none of these unnamed "many of you" have raised a
single substantive objection. I guess it's easy to see through a
straw man. I may disagree with (for example) Dennis Stacy about
Roswell and this or that other issue, but Dennis has the guts
and integrity to come on this list and state his views openly
for debate and criticism. I'd take one Stacy over any number of
(alleged) anonymous CAIJA correspondents.

>As I have said, repeatedly, I am _not_ 'in cahoots' with _any_
>element of The United States Government, nor am I a 'UFO spy,'
>CIA 'agent' or any other such nonsense.

No shit, Sherlock.

>As hard as it is for Rudiak (and other paranoids) to accept
>this, I am simply a UFO Researcher -- one who has spent 25 years
>studying reports of the subject, and yes, I have even had a UFO
>sighting that today continues to baffle me.

Now we are told that Rudiak is a paranoid. We've just seen the
slur. Now let's see the evidence.

>I am sorry, but I must refuse to have anything to do with people
>who hold such paranoid, fanciful, and delusional misconceptions
>about me and others.

Where, incidentally, has Rudiak accused you of being a
government agent? Or is this just another paranoid, fanciful,
and delusional slur? Not to mention a way of avoiding real
argument?

>One can�t reason with such people,

And one can't reason with people who prefer slurs to reasonable
arguments.


>One final thought about Mr. Rudiak - I am dismayed to see some
>of the information in the draft of this expose. Clearly, some of
>this is very personal in nature, and while it _might_ have a
>bearing and certainly explain why it is that Rudiak so
>emtionally clings to Roswell, and blindly defends Major Jesse
>Marcel to the hilt (despite his demonstrably false claims) -- I
>would prefer that the expose be confined to Rudiak�s ROSWELL
>arguments, rather than what his co-workers in XXXXXXXX have to
>say about him, his personal (alleged) hang-ups, predisposition
>towards believing in conspiracies, ad nauseum, etc. -- which are
>cited throughout this draft of this expose.

The slurs get broader and deeper. CAIJA has now gone beyond
accusing Rudiak of religious fanaticism, paranoia, and
emotionalism (without, repeat, a shred of evidence) to
innuendoes about his professional and personal life. I think I'm
going to throw up.

>I think there�s enough data contained in Rudiak�s own words to
>justify a fair and balanced review of his claims, so please
>leave the rather embarrassing personal information out of the
>report.... otherwise, I think you all are no better than Rudiak
>is.

CAIJA is trying to have it both ways. After introducing sleazy
innuendoes into the discussion, he now -- in the fashion of a
1990s Uriah Heap -- declares himself too fine a human being to
traffic in them. Is it possible to stoop any lower?

>There�s no need to stoop to his level.

The only level being stooped to is the one from which you're
addressing us, CAIJA.


>I am not interested in 'debating' Roswell anymore. There�s
>NOTHING to discuss! Until if and when pro-ET Roswell 'believers'
>come up with a single shred of hard evidence that can be
>independently verified indisputably by anyone wishing to do so,
>Roswell is a WASTE OF TIME!

No, CAIJA, you're the WASTE OF TIME! As an old employer of mine
used to say when looking at a worthless manuscript, "There's not
a fact in a carload here." I do see, however, an astonishing
range of ad hominems, sleazy innuendos, and slurs in your
posting.

>Let Don Schmitt and others continue to drag the field of ufology
>down with their shameful exploits...those who stay on this
>bandwagon have no room to complain when their 'ship' sinks, and
>discover that the boat was full of holes to begin with and never
>carried a single life raft.

Why is "ship" in quotation marks?

If this is ufology in the late 1990s, God help us all.

Disgustedly,

Jerry Clark







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   Sep > Sep 27

                         Sighting Near Pine Gap, Oz

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 22:51:11 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 18:50:17 -0400
Subject: Sighting Near Pine Gap, Oz


Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
tkbnetw@fan.net.au
*******************************************

_________________________________
Sighting Reports

From Keith Douglas
Independent Researcher
Alice Springs
Hot line number 08 -8953 3023

30th August 1998
Time 10.00pm

Baptist Church Group out camping just north of Alice Springs.

The group slit up into 3 groups of 8 children, so to settle for
a night of camp. Each group camped around 100 meters apart.

When one group noticed a bright silver ball of white light
flickering and moving up and around it was bigger than the stars
around it so it stood out, then they saw more white lights
moving in the same direction. The children all grouped together
to watch the dancing lights, they watched them for around 2
minutes then the lights  grouped and moved away at fast speed.

2nd April 1998 Keith Douglass

Two witnesses were at Maryvale, Southeast of Alice Springs, when
they noticed a large silver glow in the sky overhead. The
"lights" was about the size of a basket ball" to the eye, and it
was moving steadily to the south. They tried to sue their two
way Radio, could not transmit whilst the object was present.

At the same time they noticed a strange triangular shape cluster
of 5 smaller bright lights to the Northeast. The lights
flickered back and forth then faded out, and the larger silver
glow disappeared out of sight as it continued in its Southerly
trajectory.

November 1997 Keith Douglass

5 witness at Santa Teresa, 100 km Southeast of Alice Springs,
noticed a very bright white light in the Western sky about 7pm
one night. It was similar to "a cigar standing on end". and they
watched for about 20 minutes s it slowly traversed the sky from
the West, overhead, and to the East until out of sight.

This is an old one October 1996 got it from our New UFO
Researcher Keith Douglass in Alice Springs he asked me to post
it out for him.

For illustrated story go to

URL http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw

Special Story 2

October 1996

Several Local officials from Alice Springs were quite astounded
to see a multitude of strange orange lights between 10.30pm and
11.00pm one night. There were 40 lights in all, each quite
bright, and the size of "Thumbnail". They comprised two distinct
"formations.

The first was a circle of 19 lights, which hovered above 2
nearby towers for about 15 minutes, it has been said by the
locals that most of the UFO activity seems to be around those
tow towers ?.

Whilst the witnesses were observing this "formation" they
noticed another 21 similar lights, arranged in tow straight
lines, coming from East to West. The second set of lights then
altered position to form one evenly spaced straight line.

Both formations then travelled to the West, with the witnesses
following by car. Eventually, unable to "keep up" with the
phenomena, they lost sight of the objects

In  November 1996 Keith Douglass

Illustrated story

http://default/KeithBasterfieldNetwork/Story 3 Alice .htm

UFO LANDING

Mary Adam's and a friend where driving from west to east,
passing honey moon gap (10 klm west of Alice springs) when they
noticed a blue light glow in the tree at the base of the
mountain about half a kilometre away.

It was very low, and light up the ground, and Mary believes it
actually landed. Then suddenly the light rose up, and moved
towards them. They could see it was a sold object, about 14
meters in diameter, with a flat base and a rounded top. It was
huge, "the size of a semi-trailer", with lines running around
the bottom". The blue light it omitted formed a "halo" around
the craft, and has it floated over head they could hear a whirly
noise."

Time was around 11.20pm, and the object followed them it was "
above the car" for a sort time, they felt and thought that they
where being watched. They where so relieved when it flew back
over the hill towards pine gap.

It has come to the attention of the locals that Pine Gap
Military base is being up graded, millions of dollars are being
spent right now, cement truck after cement truck are going into
to Pine Gap. Past reports on Pine gap, where that most of the
base was below ground, but with resent photos it is plainly
obverse that they have been very busy with new buildings.

John Auchettl PRA Independent Researcher, Gave a talk at the
resent Sydney Conference saying that he had been out to Pine Gap
investigating a UFO landing sight, he also said that he had a
sample of soil from the area where the UFO had landed He said
the soil was has though it had been fussed into small balls.

Hope John will share his findings with us all.

Regards  Diane for

Keith Douglass Independent Researcher
In Alice Springs

He has NO computer just snail mail and a Telephone. :>)





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   Sep > Sep 27

                    UFO KGB Files Independent Evaluation

From: Alex Hefman <ufokgb@usa.net>
Date: 27 Sep 98 12:39:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:25:21 -0400
Subject: UFO KGB Files Independent Evaluation

Please be advised on the UFO KGB files independent evaluation
represented at:

http://members.tripod.com/~ufokgb/

comments will be appreciated





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   Sep > Sep 27

                              UFO Desk Web Site

From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 18:00:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:11:01 -0400
Subject: UFO Desk Web Site


Errol and all,

Recently I have been renovating my UFO Desk web site. While the
site is still under construction, I would like to invite all to
visit the site and experience the two radio shows I've provided
via RealAudio.

1.Interview with Maria Cuccia, a house wife who claims some
extraordinary encounters.

2.Interview with Ms. Betty Hill, of 'Interrupted Journey' fame.
Listen as Ms. Hill shares some of her thoughts and tells her
story from her encounter many years ago.

Both programs will take about twenty minutes to download, but
are well worth it. Please drop me a line with your thoughts.

Thanks

Paul Wms. Executive Producer UFO Desk WBAI NY 99.5 FM
www.escape.com/~paulw/ufodesk.html






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   Sep > Sep 27

                       Chat with Charles Emmons, Ph.D.

From: Yvonne Hedenland <vonni_h@email.msn.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 16:43:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:46:05 -0400
Subject: Chat with Charles Emmons, Ph.D.


At the Threshold UFOs, Science and the New Age

Join   Dr. Charles Emmons and the UFO Forum on September 29th at
6pm, PT for a live chat on UFOs and their place in our
scientific exploration of Earth and the galaxy around us.

Since the UFO Movement began, there has been an on-going battle
between mainstream science and researchers who "dare to study"
UFOs. Generally, media has ignored or sensationalized UFO
reports, reinforcing the view that UFOs are not a serious
subject.  Some believe that the academic establishment was
enlisted to legitimize this definition, especially in the Condon
Study of the late 1960's.

Enter guest Charles Emmons, Ph.D. engaging a sociological
perspective to analyze the UFO movement of the past 50 years,
revealing how it has been treated by the media, the government,
and by religions.  Dr. Emmons carefully charts the evolution of
this movement from its ancient roots, through the Roswell
incident, and into the present day explosion of interest.

This chat is available at:

http://forums.msn.com/ufo

The Briefing Room chat can be accessed by any IRC client. The
chat server name is publicchat.msn.com and the room or channel
name is #briefing.

Diana Botsford's audio interview with Dr. Emmons
is available now at:

http://forums.msn.com/ufo





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   Sep > Sep 27

               Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 13:51:09 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:32:52 -0400
Subject: Re: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 15:08:01 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: -[For The Record]- P-1947: Death of Roswell

>According to his wife and daughter, he _did_ say he had seen the
>bodies, gave a description, and mentioned that they had been
>packed in dry ice for preservation. His wife said he also
>claimed to be out at the main crash site.

David,

Again, which crash site would be the main one? How many crash
sites were there, so many that everyone from pilots to cooks had
to be called in to deal with them, but not medical personnel
like Kent Kimball or anyone else that he was aware of?

<snip>

>Dennis Stacy then "weighs in" with another typical unknowing
>ranting diversion (TURD):

Congratulations, David! You were able to lay off the personal
stuff about five minutes longer than I thought you would.

<snip>

>Further, the story as told by his daughter was that he was first
>out with the recovery crew in the desert (where he saw the
>aliens packed in ice in the back of an ambulance or truck). A
>recovery crew out on the desert for a day or two might very well
>need a cook, who could also do double-duty as a guard because he
>was a WWII combat veteran and expert marksman. Since security
>would have tried to minimize the number of men who had knowledge
>of what occurred, when he got back to the base, he was then made
>to stand guard around the hangar rather than bringing in someone
>fresh. In the meantime, some other schnook could do the base
>cooking. I don't see anything inconsistent here at all.

>David Rudiak


You don't see anything inconsistent _anywhere_, which is
precisely your problem. First you say "security would have tried
to minimize the number of men who had knowledge of what
occurred," and then you have the camp cook and a pilot in on the
recovery. Why this need to cannibalize personnel when Roswell
would have had plenty of already trained guards and MPs,
probably three shifts worth, and no doubt its own fire and
rescue team?

How convenient, too, that these crashes occurred on desert
terrain where they could be accessed by ambulance and civilian
fire trucks.

Dennis







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   Sep > Sep 27

                         Re: Salon Magazine Article

From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 13:51:07 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:30:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Salon Magazine Article

>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Salon Magazine Article
>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 98 10:36:17 PDT

>Bruce,

>Yes, the Salon piece is rubbish, written by a hack with naught
>but ignorance and prejudice to guide her. In other words, your
>standard mainstream-media treatment of ufology.

>On the other hand, there is a bright side. Whenever I read
>something like this, I think as follows: Here I am reading about
>something I know about, and the writer knows nothing about it.
>How do I know, when I am reading about something I know nothing
>about, that the writer knows anything about it?

>It makes for healthy skepticism.

>Jerry Clark


Jerry,

I agree completely.

And I'm sure we all have our own examples of same. Somewhile back
I read in an article in Texas Highways that an old railroad
tunnel just north of here, long abandoned and now home to a huge
bat colony, was the only such tunnel in Texas. Since I personally
knew of two more on the Texas side of the Rio Grande, I wrote a
letter to the editor to that effect which was published.

Yesterday, a guy called me out of the blue and told me of two
more Texas train tunnels, running the known total to five. Yet I
still see the bat "cave" referred to as the only train tunnel in
Texas.

For that matter, the 1897 Hamilton calf-knapping case, long
exposed as a hoax, continues to make it into print as the gospel
truth in at least one UFO book a year.

Dennis






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                             Re: Roswell Reward

From: Bourdais Gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 23:09:00 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:43:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell Reward


>From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 02:13:10 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Roswell Reward

>>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 16:45:00 +0200
>>From: bourdais gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Roswell Reward

>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>>>Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:59:43 EDT
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>>>>From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
>>>>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:29:43 EDT.
>>>>Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:47:12 - 0400
>>>>Subject: Re: Symbols Discovered on Roswell Crash Photo

>It's only "astounding information" if you insist on equating
>"flying disc" with "alien spaceship," as you apparently do. The
>term "flying disc" had no real meaning back in July of 1947.
>Trash can lids and automobile hub caps also were called "flying
>discs" during that period. Perhaps Mr. Bourdais would suggest
>all the incidents involving trash can lids and automobile hub
>caps also involved "alien spaceships."

Even a quick review of the articles of that time on "flying
saucers" or "discs" shows that, if the nature of these strange
discs was a mystery, the notion of space vehicles was quite
present. It was in balance with the idea of very secret craft or
"missiles", of domestic or foreign origin. And that's the
important point; in any case, the discovery of such a craft
_was_not_ small news! Yes, it was astounding information.

It was not a little press release to be left in the hands of a
PIO, even with the help of Major Marcel. It was part of an
operation which included taking control of the debris field,
sending debris to Fort Worth with five officers on board
including the Deputy commander of the base.

The press conference of General Ramey  had major press coverage
: the biggest title on the front page of the New York Times of
July 9. In fact, the biggest title of the whole period, on
flying saucers.

I note that the discussion is changing from "Did Haut make a
joke?" to "Anyway it was a little, unsignificant information".
Well, wether it was a spaceship or a high performance secret
weapon, you have to be blind not to see it was a very big
information. It had nothing to do with ashcans and toilet seats
which sort of proliferated afterwards.

Gildas Bourdais






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               'Rudiak On Roswell' - Lorenzo Kimball Responds

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 16:54:55 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:04:44 -0400
Subject: 'Rudiak On Roswell' - Lorenzo Kimball Responds


Dear EBK:

I have permission from Kent Kimball to post this to the UFO
Updates list.

Dennis

-------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 16:56:41 +0100
From: Lorenzo K. Kimball <lorenzok@inconnect.com>
To: DRudiak@aol.com
CC: dstacy@texas.net, Michael Kimball <michaelw@inconnect.com
Subject: Re: Roswell 1947

Dear Mr. Rudiak:

Dennis Stacy has forwarded to me some of your recent comments
about my web page:
http://www.inconnect.com/~lorenzok/roswell.html

on the events in Roswell in 1947. I would like to respond to
some of your observations.

1. I have never been cited in any of Friedman's books. When he
called me in 1992 all he asked me was if I was aware of any
unusual incidents during the summer of 1947. I told him I was
not. He did not tell me anything about Glenn Dennis or the
possibility of aliens being brought to the Base Hospital.
Neither Randle or Schmitt have ever contacted me.

2. As to my statement that there was no unusual activity, no
base alerts, no hysteria, no panic in July 1947, you make the
following comment:

    "So because this one person saw no unusual activity at the
base hospital - while he was on duty - or when he was on the
golf course, or down at the base swimming hole or drinking hole,
we are supposed to conclude that nothing at all unusual could
have happened anywhere on the base at all hours of the day and
night. That makes zero sense. Kimball, e.g., would have had no
clearance to be down at the flight line or in the hangars, so
anything going on down there would have been strictly off-limits
to him. "

My response:  I am at a loss to understand how you can state
that I had no clearance to the flight line or hangars. The fact
is, I had a Top Secret clearance and was very often on the
flight line and in many of the hangars for a variety of reasons,
including participation in training programs, familiarization
programs, and taking actual flights in different aircraft,
including training missions. Also, staff meetings were held by
Major Comstock for the express purposes of sharing information
about what was going on not only at the hospital but on the base
in general and to discuss any unusual problems. I did not
perform my duties, and there were many, in a vacuum.

3. As regards my factual assertion that there was no mortuary on
the Base, you comment as follows:

     "What I don't understand from this statement is how the
base dealt with any deaths at the base, which must have occurred
now and then. Where did they take the bodies; how did they
prepare them for burial or transport? The base hospital very
likely would have served as a makeshift "mortuary" since most
hospitals do have morgues. All we have here is a sesmantic
problem, where morgue would have been more appropriate term than
mortuary."

My comment:  The base hospital was a 100-bed facility which
dealt with short-term cases (7 days). Any patient with serious
diseases, major injuries, or who required long term care were
Air Evacuated to a regional hospital, primarily William Beaumont
Army Hospital, El Paso, Texas.  As a consequence there were very
few deaths at the hospital(which is why we didn't need nor were
we authorized a pathologist) and when the services of a mortuary
were required,including embalming,we contracted on a case by
case basis with the Ballard Funderal Home in Roswell. I think
the difference between a mortuary and a morgue is more than
semantic.

4.  In the same email you make the following statement about me:
"The witness was a junior medical officer at the time with no
general access to all parts of the base, and can only tell us
what he observed from a very limited perspective, much of it
seeming to be the base golf course and swimming pool."

My comment: Although I was "only" a Captain at the time, it so
happens I was the third ranking officer assigned to the Base
Hospital. The Commander was a Major - Jack Comstock, we had a
Lt. Col. by the name of Harold M. Warne who was our Dental
Surgeon. I was senior to all the Captains assigned by date of
rank. As I noted above my access to the base facilities was
anything but limited.  Your assumption that much of my time was
spent on the golf course or in the swimming pool is nonsense. I
included reference to these activities only to illustrate that
life was pretty normal in the summer of 1947 in Roswell, New
Mexico. We were not obsessed with aliens from outer space.

5. I have not seen the article in OMNI magazine about "the last
known Roswell nurse."Who was this nurse? I will try to find a
copy of the article so I can comment.

6.  In discussing the five nurses assigned to the hospital you
make the following statement:

    "...Kimball wrote that there were only five nurses at the
base and he knew them well....Kevin Randle pointed this out to
me. {Victor} Golubic actually discovered that there were around
20 military and civilian nurses there at the time. So where did
Kimball come up with only five?

My comment:  I came up with five because I was there at the time
and saw them on a daily basis. Is an eyewitness account useless
these days? I have talked to Victor Golubic a number of times
and he has provided me a copy of some of his personnel data,
none of which lists 20 military and civilian nurses. I don't
recall any civilian nurses assigned in the two years I was
there. Also, a 100-bed, short term care, military facility at
that time had no such authorization.  I seriously doubt that
Victor told this to Kevin Randle. I have been trying to call
Victor  today without success. I'll continue to do so to see if
he actuallygave this false information to Randle.

7. You state that "Freidman...pointed out that Kimball's
objection to the photo of the base hospital being fiction is
bogus." Following is an excerpt from a letter I sent to Freidman
on 2 September 1997:

    "...on the photo of the base hospital, they would have had
to not only add bricks to the structure but they would have had
to add a second story. All of the hospital buildings were one
story, wooden frame buildings. Any such structural change would
not only have been unlikely, it would haves been financially
unfeasible due to budget constraints. This photo no way
resembles any part of the Base Hospital as I knew it in 1947 and
again in 1953 when I inspected the facility as a member of the
8th Air Force IG team."

8. On the supposed autopsy performed at the Base Hospital you
offer the following explanation:

"Randle & Schmitt gave the rank of the radiologist who allegedly
performed the autopsy (and whom they apparently
misidentifed(sic) as a pathologist) as Major Jesse B. Johnson.
Kimball said the yearbook listed him as a 1st lieutenant.
Apparently so, but Randle says he retired as a major. Kimball's
objection here then becomes a quibble. However, his statement
that the radiologist would not have performed the autopsy
probably has merit. On the other hand, if he was the only doctor
available at the time maybe not."

My comments:  Again Randle has given you some false information.
Jesse B. Johnson was a two-year doctor draftee. He was not a
career officer and did not retire. He merely left the service as
a Captain  after his two year tour of duty.

Also, surely Randle knows the difference between a pathologist
and a radiologist.

His research here is shoddy at best. None of what he reports
about the autopsy can be supported by any testimony or evidence.
I think this is more than a mere "quibble."

Your suggestion that perhaps he could have performed the autopsy
if he was the only doctor available at the time is untenable.
Dr. Jesse B. Johnson simply would never have been left solely in
charge of the hospital. In fact, no one physician would have
been placed in that position.

The primary reason I prepared the web site on Roswell was to
provide what I thought was first hand information as to what did
NOT take place at the Base Hospital in the summer of 1947.  You
call me a "pretty minor character and personally knew a very
limited amount."  If by this comment you are saying I didn't
know what was or was not going in the base hospital you are dead
wrong. You have belittled me and demeaned me by your gratuitous
remarks about my time at the golf course, swimming pool, and
drinking hole. I like to think I performed my duties well and
conscientiously - at least well enough to be promoted and given
more responsible assignments at higher levels of command and
complete over 20 years of active service.

As you must be aware I am not the only "witness" who was
stationed at Roswell Army Air Field during the summer of 1947
who is skeptical about the multitude of accounts of the landing
of craft from outer space and the recovery of alien remains. If
you have not done so, please take a look at Kent Jeffries web
site, Anatomy of a Myth:

http://www.roswell.org/


Here is an excerpt from that site in Jeffries own words:


At the time of the 509th reunion, I had not yet seen all the
pertinent 1948 military documents and still held an inkling of
hope that there might be something to the Roswell event. Prior
to the reunion, I had sent out over 700 mailings to members of
the reunion group in the hope of finding additional witnesses to
the mysterious debris. The result was a disappointment -- only
two calls, neither of which was of any real help. Both of the
men who called were former 509th flight engineers. One had had a
very interesting UFO sighting from the ramp at Kirtland Air
Force Base. The other recalled seeing a lot of extra activity
around one of the hangers at Roswell near the time of the 1947
incident.

At the reunion in Tucson, I was introduced to several of the
pilots who were at Roswell in 1947 and who promptly told me, in
no uncertain terms, that the crashed saucer event never
occurred, period. I did not get the impression at the time, nor
have I ever since, that any of these men are engaged in some
kind of incredible 50-year-long massive cover-up or that they
were putting on an act or facade to throw me off track. Anyone
who believes that to be the case is out of touch with the
reality of this issue. Like every other person with whom I have
ever discussed this subject, these men were in total agreement
that anything as important and profound as the knowledge of
other intelligent life in the universe is information that
should not be censored or suppressed and to which everyone
should be entitled. These men risked their lives in World War II
to save the world from the kind of totalitarian governments
that, among their many other crimes against humanity,
unjustifiably suppressed information from their people.

The men who were at Roswell during July 1947 feel very strongly
that absolutely nothing out of the ordinary happened and that
the whole matter is patently ridiculous. The 509th was the only
atomic bomb group in the world in 1947 and was composed of a
very elite group of individuals, most of whom still feel a
definite sense of pride in their former outfit. To them, the
crashed-saucer nonsense, along with all the hullabaloo and
conspiracy theories surrounding it, makes a mockery of and is an
insult to the 509th Bomb Group and its men.

One of the 509th pilots I met at the reunion, Jack Ingham, has
since become a friend and has helped me considerably in
contacting additional members of the group who were stationed at
Roswell during the time of the incident. When I first met Jack
in Tucson, he spared no punches in letting me know exactly what
he thought about the crashed-flying saucer matter. Others at the
reunion told me that if something like the crash of a UFO had
really happened at Roswell, Jack Ingham would have known. Jack
spent a total of 16 years with the 509th Bomb Group -- February
1946 to July 1962. He retired from the Air Force as a lieutenant
colonel in January 1971.

Since last September, I have spoken with a total of 15 B-29
pilots and 2 B-29 navigators, all of whom were stationed at
Roswell Army Air Field in July 1947. Most of them heard nothing
about the supposed crashed-saucer incident until years later,
after all the publicity started. The few men who did recall
hearing something about the incident at the time of its
occurrence said that the inside word was that the debris was
from a downed balloon of some kind and that there was no more
than "one wheelbarrow full." Not one single man had any direct
knowledge of a crashed saucer or of any kind of unusual
material. Even more significantly, in all of their collective
years with the 509th Bomb Group, not one of these men had ever
encountered any other individual who had such knowledge.

As Jack Ingham and others pointed out, the 509th was a very
close-knit group and there was no way an event as spectacular as
the recovery of a crashed-alien spaceship from another world
could have happened at their base without their having known
about it. Despite the fact that they, individually, may not have
been directly involved with the recovery operation, and despite
the pervasiveness of the "need to know" philosophy in the
military, these men maintained that there was absolutely no way
that something of such magnitude and so earthshaking would not
have been communicated among the members of the group --
especially within the inner circle of the upper echelon of B-29
pilots and navigators -- all of whom had top-secret security
clearances. Furthermore, unlike the atomic weapons secrets with
which they were all entrusted, the existence of a crashed alien
spaceship would have been much more of a social and scientific
issue than a national security issue. Additionally, word was
already out -- the story had been published in afternoon
newspapers all over the Western United States.

Most of the men of the 509th Bomb Group were primarily WWII
veterans in their mid- to late twenties. (Colonel Blanchard, the
commander of the group, was, himself, only 31.) Military
regulations notwithstanding, human nature and common sense have
to be factored into the equation. Such an occurrence -- the most
significant and dramatic event in recorded history -- would
surely have been discussed by these men, at least among
themselves.

****************************************************************


Lorenzo Kent Kimball
Professor Emeritus, Political Science
University of Utah

Home Page:  http://www.inconnect.com/~lorenzok/index.html

****************************************************************










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   Sep > Sep 27

                      UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 39

From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:04:02 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:14:25 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 39

    UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 3, Number 39
September 27, 1998
Editor: Joseph Trainor

SPAIN DECLASSIFIES
83 MILITARY UFO FILES

     Earlier this month Spain became the first nation
in Europe to open its classified UFO files to
researchers.
     On September 7, 1998, the Fuerza Aerea d'Espana
(Spanish Air Force--J.T.) made available 83 case files
on UFO sightings in Spain, files which had previously
been classified Top Secret.
     According to the newspaper Voz de Galicia, "The
truth is out there, in Madrid's General Air Force Library.
It was learned yesterday that the Spanish Air Force
has completed declassifying these official documents,
which began in 1990.  The shelves of the Madrid library
hold the 83 'X-Files' previously classified as Top Secret.
Twenty percent of these cases lack any logical
explanation."
     "One report, numbered as 891205, was opened in
December 1989," in which eyewitnesses described
"a lenticular UFO 'with a vast array of shining lights'"
which overflew the towns of Sada and Castro in
Spain's Galicia province, about 350 kilometers
(210 miles) northwest of Madrid.
     "At 6:40 p.m." on December 5, 1989, "members of
the Benemrita (provincial police--J.T.) in Castro
notified the Lavacolla Central Tower, which notified the
army at the Aerial Vigilance Station at Noia (EVA 10).
Both radars, civilian and military, obtained the object,
which moved vertically."
     At 8:40 p.m., three UFOs appeared on the EVA 10
radar set.  Two vanished from the screen at 9:02 p.m.
But the third signal persisted until 8 a.m. the following
day, December 6, 1989.
     The article also described a second case in Galicia
"from the five pages of File 660402."
     On April 2, 1966, "a corporal, a watchman and two
sailors at Carreira watched a luminous object...It was
to the left of Mount Campelo.  The phenomenon lasted
three-quarters of an hour.  One of the witnesses took a
snapshot of the UFO, which shows only a white spot
against a black background."  (See the newspaper
Voz de Galicia for September 8, 1998.  Many thanks
to Scott Corrales, author of CHUPACABRAS AND
OTHER MYSTERIES for forwarding the article.)

UFOs HOVER OVER CITIES IN
NORTHWESTERN FRANCE

     The UFO flap in France continued last week
with more sightings along the Atlantic coast.
     On Wednesday, September 16, 1998, at
4:45 a.m., Ismael Belal "awoke abruptly from an
agitated sleep.  Turning, I saw through the window
of my apartment, located at 5 Allee Houdon in
Boulogne-sur-Mer, in the sky at an angle of 45
degrees above the horizon that which is called
an OVNI (French acronym for UFO--J.T.).  It was
of a dark rectangular form with white and red lights
strung along the periphery.  The object measured
10 centimeters at arm's length.  The object was at
the level of the cloud ceiling, about 400 to 600
meters.  The object moved very rapidly in the sky
and was silent.  It went north to south, passing to
the west of Boulogne-sur-Mer.  The weather was
cloudy with intermittent clear spots."
     On Friday, September 18, 1998, at 10:40 p.m.,
a witness in the department of Eure, west of Paris,
contacted the French UFO group Banque OVNI and
reported seeing "a stationary light in the sky in the
direction (west) of Le Havre."
     At 11:40 p.m., witnesses in Le Havre reported
spotting "a discoid object with three bright white
lights...one millimeter at arm's length.  The sky was
clear and cloudless.  The luminous object flew towards
the south-southeast, to the end of its path, over
Honfleur."
     Le Havre is a harbor city at the mouth of the
river Seine, in the department Seine-Maritime, located
200 kilometers (120 miles) west of Paris.  Honfleur is
on the south side of the river, about 12 kilometers
(9 miles) southeast of Le Havre.
     The witnesses kept the luminous object in view
for 50 minutes and said it "always remained in the
same place in the sky.  The object seemed to be too
slow to be a star.  The planets along the plane of
the eclyptic were lower on the horizon."
     Franck Marie of Banque OVNI is investigating
this case and has contacted Orly Airport and the
Centre Operationenel Inter-Armees, COIA (the
French Pentagon--J.T.) to see if the objects showed
on radar.  (Merci beaucoup au Franck Marie et
Michel Granger pour ces nouvelles.)

FRENCH UFOLOGISTS SPAR
OVER VOREPPE CASE

     Service d'Expertise des Phenomenes de
Rentrees Atmospheriques (SERPA), the French
government's UFO study group, reversed its
position on the spherical metallic UFO seen and
videotaped in Voreppe on September 6, 1998.
But not all ufologists are in agreement.
     The UFO was seen at 8 p.m. in Voreppe, a
town of the department of Isere, near Grenoble in
the French Alps.  The witnesses, a family of four,
watched it hover over their garden and shot a
videotape of its departure.
     On September 13, 1998, SEPRA, the Centre
National d'Etudes Spaciales (CNES) and the
Gendarmerie (French police--J.T.) announced the
results of the "joint investigation that raised doubts
about the object observed," and said "the spherical
object, probably metallic and incandescent" was
actually "a balloon filled with helium."
     A CNES spokesman said, "The information has
been confided to us, convincingly, by Jean-Jacques
Velasco, head of SEPRA" that "what happened is
a family of Voreppe informed the police that their
son had dropped a balloon that was fairly large
(one meter in diameter) in the shape of a ladybug.
There was very little wind, and it drifted, finally
losing altitude, downward into the garden.  Night
was falling, and the witnesses were mistaken about
its size.  When they shot the video, the object was
already some distance away and hard to identify."
     La coccinelle (French for ladybug--J.T.), the
CNES spokesman added, had a distinctive shape,
and on the tape, "a woman's voice could be heard,
saying, 'It looks like a ladybug.'"  Also, "a string
could be seen on the video, floating under the
balloon."
     Banque OVNI director Franck Marie disputed
the findings however, asking, "How could an
incandescent sphere of 5 or 6 meters be mistaken
for a balloon one meter wide with the bright sun
shining?"
     He added that, "despite the 'very feeble wind,'
the object remained in place for at least two
minutes, during the film, at minimum."  (See the
newspaper L'Union for September 13, 1998,
"L'OVNI de Voreppe etait un ballon gonfle a
l'helium."  Merci beaucoup au Franck Marie et
Errol Bruce-Knapp pour ces nouvelles.)
(Editor's Comment: I know I shouldn't take sides
in a UFO dispute, but there are two questions
that I just have to ask.  (A) What happened to
the scorched and charred tree branches collected
at the scene that evening by the Gendarmerie?
(B) If there was a "very feeble wind," then how
was the "balloon" able to depart the scene at
an estimated speed of 48 kilometers per hour?)

TRIANGULAR UFO SEEN
IN NORTHERN ITALY

     On Saturday, September 5, 1998, at 8 a.m.,
two ufologists in Como, a city just south of Italy's
border with Switzerland, spotted "with binoculars,
a brilliant light, like a flare from the sun.  Because
of the brightness of the object, it was not possible
to observe it for very long."
     At 11:30 p.m. that night, witnesses in Cusago
and Settimo Milanese, near Milano (Milan) about
60 kilometers (36 miles) southeast of Como, "saw
a luminous triangular object...the strange light was
flying at a high altitude above the horizon and made
many turns.  Observed with a pair of professional
it revealed the shape and the lights arranged in
a triangular order, one attached to each corner."
    At 11:30 p.m., "a similar arrangement of white
lights" was seen in the town of Cesano Boscone."
(Grazie a Alfredo Lissoni, Giuliano Bertelli e Marco
Guarisco di Centro Ufologico Nazionale, CUN, per
questo rapporto.)

FIVE UFOs SIGHTED IN
YPENBURG, NETHERLANDS

     On Saturday, September 19, 1998, at 2 p.m.,
eyewitnesses spotted a daylight disc over Ypenburg,
a small town near Delft in the Netherlands, about
60 kilometers (36 miles) southwest of Amsterdam.
     Between 2 and 3 p.m., the witnesses sighted
"five lights," of which "some were triangular and the
others disk-shaped.  They were about two to six
meters wide.  They produced a faint blue and red
light.  They were extremely fast and able to stop
instantly, then 'float' about...They disappeared at
high speed, straight up, in a formation."  (USENET
Report)
(Editor's Note:  Take this one with a grain of salt.
The writer did not respond to my three requests
for an email interview.)

AMBER OVOID UFO SEEN IN
PORTSMOUTH, RHODE ISLAND

     On Tuesday, September 22, 1998, at 4:18 p.m.,
Roscoe Sweeney (a pseudonym), a 22-year-old sailor
in the U.S. Navy, "was driving north on Burma Road"
in Portsmouth, Rhode Island (population 13,840)
"one mile from the Melville shipyard" when he spied
a UFO.
     "It started above the tree line, about 10 degrees
above the horizon, and disappeared into the clouds...
Ended up slightly 30 degrees up.  The departure angle
was close to 45 degrees.  It departed into the west
and up."
     "I'm a reliable judge of speed.  This thing was
smoking and accelerating!  Speed 400 to 500 knots,
with a behind-the-trees dash at Mach 1 (600 knots),
easy."
     "It was the brilliance that brought my eye to it.
If I had done a slow blink, I would have missed it
completely.  This was truly an amazing sight."
     He described the UFO as "oval, like if you put
your thumb and index finger together to make the
OK sign.  No blinking lights.  Glowed like looking
at a picture of the filtered sun...amber/gold."
     Portsmouth is on Aquidneck Island in Rhode
Island's Narragansett Bay, about 25 miles
(40 kilometers) southeast of Providence, the
state capital.  (Email Interview)

UFOs FLY OVER FRESNO
AND LOS ANGELES

     UFOs were spotted twice in southern
California last week.
     On Tuesday, September 22, 1998, at 9:40 p.m.,
Vikki and Joseph R. were at their home near the
Shields Avenue bypass in Fresno, California
(population 354,202) when they spotted a UFO.
     Vikki reported, "My husband and I witnessed a
triangular-shaped object with lights set at regular
intervals.  The object appeared to be a pyramid
shape.  It had no sound.  Altitude at my estimation
was 2,000 feet and it was last seen heading east
towards Nevada."
     "From our vantage point, the craft looked
triangular in shape, almost a delta form, and had
five lights, three on one side, two on the other.
We had it in view about a minute, all total."
     She added that the object "was about the
size of a football at arm's length.  No noise
whatsoever...extremely quiet."  (Email Interview)
     Fresno is on Highway 99 about 215 miles
(344 kilometers) north of Los Angeles.
     Two days earlier, on Sunday, September 20,
1998, "just before sunset," at 6:40 p.m., professional
photographer Victor M. "spotted a stationary object
above the Palos Verdes (hills) on the San Pedro
peninsula, on the east side of the hill.  I was facing
west and spotted an object or objects just below
the clouds.  I ran in my house to get the binoculars
and an SLR 35mm camera."
     "Through the binoculars, I noticed a greyish
and sometimes shiny C-shaped object.  The C was
with the open side up.  The object appeared to have
split into two or three objects of the same shape.
Suddenly, the object turned into a V-shaped object
with the point of the V turned upward, inverted."
     "Setting the binoculars down, I utilized the camera
which had a 200mm lens attached, ASA 50 film,
f5.6 at about 1/200 shutter speed, hand-held without
tripod, and I took about three to six shots."
     He added that the UFOs "did not move at all," and
"I watched them for about 20 minutes" before they
departed.  (Email Interview)
     San Pedro is on Pacific Avenue about 16 miles
(25 kilometers) south of the Los Angeles Convention
Center.

MYSTERIOUS LIGHTS SEEN IN
FARMINGTON, NEW MEXICO

     On Monday, September 14, 1998, Michael O.
"walked out of my house at 10:30 p.m. to go to my
next-door neighbor's" in Farmington, New Mexico
(population 33,937).  "As I looked up into the night
sky, I noticed two flashing white strobe lights.  They
were at approximately 75 degrees above the horizon."
     He estimated that, at arm's length, the lights
were "the distance between my thumb tip and the
little finger tip," if the fingers were splayed apart.
     "What was unusual was that they were absolutely
synchronous, as if they were attached to the same
aircraft, and yet they were too far apart to be.  Unless,
of course, they were attached to an extremely large
aircraft."
     "As I watched, the strobe on the right began moving
closer to the one on my left, while the one on the left
maintained its course.  As the right one nearly merged
with the one on the left, it suddenly moved beneath it,
then moved up on the opposite side and continued
moving to the left until it was the same distance to the
left that it had been on the right.  It then remained in
that position until both were out of sight."
     Farmington is on New Mexico Highway 64
approximately 208 miles (333 kilometers) northwest
of Santa Fe.  (Many thanks to Errol Bruce-Knapp
for forwarding this news story.)

SPHERICAL UFO SIGHTED IN
NORTHERN KENTUCKY

     On Wednesday, September 9, 1998, Bob Riker
(pseudonym) who "works in Florence (Kentucky) as
a computer technician and administrator," at 4 p.m.
"stepped outside for a cigarette.  The sky was spotted
with clouds, and the sun was shining between them,
enough to provide adequate lighting."
     Just then, Bob spotted a small spherical object
moving from the north to the south-southwest.  "It
traversed the entire horizon from the north to the
southwest in less than ten seconds, going under
the low dark clouds before disappearing in a distant
cloud bank (and under an approaching plane.)
     He added that "there was no sound from the object,
which seemed to glitter slightly from the background
sun, which was in the west.  The object appeared to
briefly sparkle, as if it were reflecting a glow from
the sun.  It was not necessarily glowing, more like a
reflective sparkle."
     Florence, Kentucky (population 18,624) is about
21 miles (33 kilometers) south of Cincinnati, Ohio.
(Many thanks to Kenneth Young, public relations
director of Tri-States Advocates for Scientific
Knowledge, T.A.S.K., for this news story.)

MARS GLOBAL SURVEYOR
TIGHTENS ITS ORBIT

     On Wednesday morning, September 23, 1998,
NASA flight controllers sent a transmission to the
Mars Global Surveyor, ordering the spacecraft to
fire its rocket engine in an aerobraking maneuver.
     "The 14.8-second engine burn Wednesday
morning was successful in using aerobraking to slow
the spacecraft's speed.  Engineers are trying to reduce
the spacecraft's large elliptical orbit into a tight circle."
     The aerobraking maneuver was originally scheduled
for March 1998.  However, shortly after the spacecraft
arrived in orbit around Mars in September 1997, NASA
discovered that a solar panel was bent out of shape.
Controllers feared that an aerobraking maneuver might
snap off the panel completely.
     The rocket burn changed Mars Global Surveyor's
point of closest approach from an altitude of 107 miles
(171 kilometers) to 79 miles (122 kilometers), and,
as a result, "each orbit should be less than two hours."
(Many thanks to Steve Wilson Sr. for forwarding the
NASA news release.)
(Editor's Comment: Lest we forget, the lander
Pathfinder and its little robot Sojourner are still
marooned on Mars, 213 million miles from home.)

from the UFO Files...

1824: STRANGE PHENOMENON
          AT ORENBURG

     In late September 1824, people in Orenburg, Russia
were puzzled when they heard something clattering on
the onion-shaped roof of the Orthodox church.  They
soon discovered "little symmetrical pieces of metal"
falling from the clear blue sky.
     Months later, on January 25, 1825, the same
phenomenon occurred again.
     Samples of the material were gathered and sent
to St. Petersburg (then capital of Russia--J.T.)
     In Oeuvres vol. 11, page 644, a scientist, M. Arago,
noted that a chemical analysis of the objects had
showed them to be "70 percent red oxide of iron,
and sulphur, and loss (of mass) by ignition
(combustion) 5 percent."  Amazingly the pieces
of metal showed signs of having been manufactured.
     The Orenburg "sky fall" attracted the attention of
Prince Pavel Vasilyevich Dolgorukii, the "librarian"
of the mystic Brothers of the Inner Order.  This was
an offshoot of the Lodge Harmonia, founded by
Nikolai Novikov in St. Petersburg in 1780.
    When Empress Catherine II suppressed the
Masonic lodges of Russia in 1792 and jailed Novikov,
Dolgorukii and two brothers, Yuri and Nikita
Troubezkoi, formed the Brothers of the Inner Order.
They then set about collecting hundreds of books
on alchemy, mysticism and the paranormal,
including works by the most notorious occultists
of the period.  The collection had a first edition
Originalschriften des Illuminatenordensekte by
Adam Weishaupt and pamphlets by Jean-Baptiste
Willermoz and the ayatollah Shaikh Ahmed Ahsai.
     After Dolgorukii's death in 1838, the collection--
and perhaps a handful of those mysterious Orenburg
artifacts--passed into the possession of his daughter,
Mme. Nadyezhda de Fadeyev.
     In 1846, about the time of the war between the
USA and Mexico, Mme. de Fadeyev's 15-year-old
niece, Elena Petrovna von Hahn, spent the summer
reading all the mystical books in her deceased
grandfather's library.
     Thirty years later, as the author/occultist
Madame Blavatsky, Elena hinted at the strange
doings in Orenburg in her book, THE SECRET
DOCTRINE, "...more than one Russian mystic
travelled to Tibet via the Ural Mountains in search
of knowledge and initiation in the unknown crypts
of central Asia.  And more than one returned years
later with a rich store of such information as could
never have been given him anywhere in Europe."
     This trail, similar to the "Underground Railroad"
for escaped black slaves in the early Nineteenth
Century USA, led from St. Petersburg and Moscow
straight through--you guessed it--Orenburg.
     Sad to say, the Dolgorukii collection vanished
sometime in the 1890s, after Mme. de Fadeyev's
death.
     Orenburg is located just south of the Ural
Mountains 600 kilometers (360 miles) east of
Moscow.  (See THE COMPLETE BOOKS OF
CHARLES FORT, Dover Publications Inc.,
New York, NY, 1974, page 178.  See also
THE MASTERS REVEALED by K. Paul Johnson,
State University Press, Albany, NY, 1994,
pages 19 to 22.)
(Editor's Note: Declassified files of the Third
Section secret police of the Tsarist Ministry of
the Interior revealed last year that a UFO,
described as "an intense burst of white light,"
was seen over Orenburg by dozens of people,
including government officials, in January 1846,
about six months before young Elena developed
an interest in her grandfather's occult library.)

FUN UFO WEBSITES:
     Don't miss our parent site, UFO INFO, for the
lastest in UFO photos, news and features.  Check
it out at http://ufoinfo.com.
     Back issues of UFO Roundup can be accessed
and downloaded at our webpage.  Drop in any time
at http://ufoinfo.com/roundup

     September 29 is the birthday of movie actor
Gene Autry, the first...and mercifully the only...
singing cowboy ever to visit Pellucidar.  Born
Orvon Gene Autry on a ranch near Tioga, Texas
on September 29, 1907, he was working at a
railroad telegraph office in Oklahoma when
comedian Will Rogers walked in and heard him
singing.  Rogers encouraged Autry to pursue a
career in show business.  In 1928, Autry began
singing on a local radio station.  He made his
film debut in a Ken Maynard Western, and in
1935, starred in his own movie, a 13-chapter
serial entitled The Phantom Empire.
     The Phantom Empire is a weird blend of
Western and science fiction and of interest to
ufologists because it is possibly the first movie
to deal with the theme of cattle mutilation.

     We'll be back next week with more saucer
news from around the planet, brought to you by
"the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."
See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1998 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
news items from UFO Roundup on their websites
or in newsgroups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date





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   Sep > Sep 28

                            Re: KGB Crashed Disc

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:34:18 PDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:20:32 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Crashed Disc


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:00:44 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: KGB Crashed Disk

<snip>

>First and foremost is the crash of the object itself. There were
>a number of posts which posed the question of how the (sic) disk
>could bury itself so deeply into the earth. It did not.
>According to the commentary and the computer simulated crash,
>the object did break up during the several impacts, leaving only
>a small portion in the ground.

Jim,

The piece leaning against the tree was described, justifiably, as
the 'large piece' for it appears to be just over 50% of the basic
round shape. It is certainly not a 'small portion".

<snip>

>my weapons of choice. The proof of this is the FACT that in the
>45 years I have hunted small game, I've never killed anything,
>including my buddies.

At least you sound like the sort of shooter I would appreciate
being on the enemy's side  ;-)

>Comments were posted regarding the fact that the rear of this
>object had not been filmed and/or the film shown. The rear of
>this object was filmed by a second cameraman who was seen to
>walk behind the object and shoot film. The story line stated
>clearly that this particular film was not available. So there.

You don't think it at all 'convenient' that footage of the rear
was not shown? C'mon , Jim, a little lateral thinking here,
please. Go to the UFOKGB web site mentioned in the earlier post
and have a close look at image 'front6.jpg' and call it up for a
close look. You will see what appears to bracing behing the prop
wreck.

<snip>

>I hope this clears up any questions in this matter so that we
>can all spend time asking the question, "God, The Universe and
>Everything?" I have been told the answer is 43. I am somewhat
>skeptical, as I heard this on TV recently.

42, Jim   :-)


Regards,

Leanne Martin
Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia






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   Sep > Sep 28

                       Jim Moseley & Hurricane Georges

From: Karl T. Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 08:52:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:24:07 -0400
Subject: Jim Moseley & Hurricane Georges

Had a phone message from 'Saucer Smear' editor Jim Moseley last
night.

He's in Phoenix and flies to Miami today. He can't fly to Key
West from there yet, as the KW airport's still closed and the
town is mostly without power.

His phone is out, although others are not, and while the next
'Smear' is at the printer, the printer is without power. Jim
didn't say anything about the state of his house, so I assume
(correctly, I hope) there was little or no damage.

-- Cheers,

KARL






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   Sep > Sep 28

                 Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:43:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:47:51 -0400
Subject: Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings


> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings
> Date: Sun, 27 Sep 98 11:38:25 PDT

Personally, I have little or no interest in Roswell, and
routinely delete postings on the subject. As I have said before,
and will say again, Roswell has contributed nothing to our
understanding of the UFO phenomenon. The time and effort wasted
on debating its he-said-she-said material could easily be
focused on cases of actual substantive value, but the ambiguous
nature of the entire body of Roswell evidence seems to make it
an attractive debating subject for many list members.

That said, however, I think that Kal's posting was yet another
waste of bandwidth. Kal keeps claiming to be a ufologist, but I
am waiting to see him contribute some substantive advance to the
field rather than continual diatribes on Meier, Dilletoso, and
Roswell.

For instance, David Rudiak contributed some excellent material
to the list this summer on the Levelland incident, helping to
develop some calculations that have some potential use. Where is
there a contribution from Kal of similar value? In fact, where
is the basic information on Kal's claimed sighting, requested
months ago? Kal has time to pat himself on the back for being so
noted, so critically acclaimed, and to trash David, but seems to
find no time to provide simple information which could be used
to put a range of hard numbers on the circular acceleration of
the objects he observed; this despite the fact that such
information, assuming he really had a sighting (which I begin to
doubt), would be so readily available that I wouldn't need to be
sent an e-mail from him telling me he will answer this
question... later.

> If this is ufology in the late 1990s, God help us all.

Jerry, of course, knows better, but is simply being dramatically
rhetorical.

Whatever Kal is doing doesn't seem to be Ufology - that is, the
study of UFOs. For that matter, the Roswell proponents and
opponents aren't studying UFOs either.

On the one side we've got Salon, and Kal, and Meier, and
Sightings, TNT, Mack, and all the other sensationalist drivel on
both the believer and skeptical sides of the question. Most
days, I think Roswell lives over there, too.

On the side of actually studying UFOs (remember, those
inconvenient objects and their occupants?) we've got people like
the members of Project-1947, we've got Jerry's UFO Encyclopedia,
we've got Sturrock and his panel, we've got the better work of
Vallee, we've got Haines, Maccabee, Bullard and Schussler.

To my mind, the first category is just media circus. The second
is Ufology in the late 1990s. Studying UFOs, not their own
ego-vacant navels. Thank goodness.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------







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                        Re: Throw A Stone Anywhere...

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 12:56:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:53:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Throw A Stone Anywhere...


>From: Melanie Mecca <natural.state@erols.com>
>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 23:34:39 -0500
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Throw A Stone Anywhere...

<snip>

Hiya Melanie,

Thank you for posting those sighting reports from credible
witnesses. It's true, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting
someone that has had a sighting (or) an encounter. My e-mail
box is _full_ of them - everyday. Quiet as it's kept I think a
very large number of people are ready to hear the truth. When
they start to -demand it- maybe then a few of those clowns in
DC will finally release some of it.

>There you have it, some vignettes from the DC 'burbs. As for me,
>every night lately for the last six weeks I've gotten up in the
>middle of the night to take my dog out (6-7 meals a day to
>support lactation, makes her restless at night), I look up, and
>there .... are the same old stars that were there the night
>before. Y'all have some better luck, wontcha?

Doesn't have to be at night Mel. Try to sched 15 or 20 mins.
two to three times a week during the day where you can sit
(somewhere with as large a panoramic view of the sky as
you can get) and just watch the skies. I don't make promises
that I can't keep. (You _know_ me!)

I _promise_ you that it won't be long before you see something
in the sky that doesn't belong there. Something that doesn't
move like anything you've seen before. Something that doesn't
look like anything you've seen before. All it takes is persistence.
The guy that you quoted in your post hit it right on the head;

"They're here all right!"

Warmest regards,

John Velez, 'Drummer to the Gods of Thunder'
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
________________________________________________






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                       Re: More On Ramey Photo & Note

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 16:35:03 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:41:44 -0400
Subject: Re: More On Ramey Photo & Note


>From: James S. Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 20:13:16 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: More On Ramey Photo & Note

>>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:17:39 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>>To: Errol <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: RE: Ramey Note (fwd)

><snip>

>>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:10:03 -0500
>>From: Derrel Sims <derrel@holman.net>
>>To: "'Regehr, Ronald'" <RONALD.REGEHR@Aerojet.com>
>>Subject: RE: Ramey Note

><snip>

>>From: Regehr, Ronald [SMTP:RONALD.REGEHR@Aerojet.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, September 24, 1998 3:29 PM
>>To: fsphys@brunnet.net; decker@ufomag.com; Art
>>Subject: Ramey Note

>>Hello my friends,

>>Things move too swiftly sometimes for me to keep up.
>>As you might be aware, several of us have deciphered
>>much of the note

<snip>

>required to vary the brightness and contrast of different areas
>>of the image in order to best resolve the individual characters.
>>Translation took 3 to 4 hours. Several factors assisted us.

><snip>

>>The message, as best we can determine to date, is:

>snip<

>>   1)  .......................................................
>>AS THE
>>                     ??
>>PLA KIF
>>(could this be PLANE WRECK?)
>>   2)  ........ 4 hRS THE VICTIMS OF.THE.DOA.REYK....FORWARDED
>>TO YOU

>>   3)  ......... AT FORT WORTH, TEX.

>>   4)  .............. THE "DISK"
>>..............................L.......AT  0984 ACKNOWLEDGES

>Hmmmm.  Interesting.  But it does not seem to me that _if_ the
>note reveals a crashed disk, it would be displayed for the
>cameras to pick up and the public (and Soviets) to see.  Does
>it?

>Also, can it be that Gen. Ramey DID NOT READ THE NOTE prior to
>taking the photos?

>Not taking a position on either side, but merely asking what to
>me must be obvious questions relating to the comportment of
>military men in an obviously sensitive position.

>Gads, if it was a disc and if Ramey did not read a document
>prior to taking photos of it with the "evidence,"  we was, and
we still is, in a heapa' trouble folks!  Between Slick and

>snip>

>Jim

Jim & List,

I've been reviewing and comparing various interpretations of the
Ramey Note photos (see below), and it seems that the very
important (i.e., from my point of view) interpretation "disk",
so far, appears only once, i.e., the one from Mr. Ronald Regehr.
(Though he's mentioning in his mail, cited above, that he and
Mr. JBJ presented the preliminary results at MUFON, and that the
message, as cited above, was "as best" they "can determine to
date". Do they agree, or disagree, on the interpretation:
"DISK"? See mail from JBJ(?) cited below.)

Further, could the text deciphering and interpretation "THE
VICTIMS OF.THE.DOA.*REYK*", for instance, indicate a crash, or
something else, taking place at REYKjavik, Iceland? (Just
thinking....)

The text "DISK" neither seems to appear on this reference:

>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 20:41:55 EDT
>Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:19:52 -0400
>Subject: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets

>Roswell Photos Revisited to be Aired on Fox-TV Network....

>Ron Regehr, Associate Director, MUFON Orange County and
>well-known space/satellite engineer, and James Bond Johnson,
>photographer of the Roswell "flying saucer" wreckage in 1947,
>will be interviewed by Roswell Event media specialist David

>snip<

>The Ramey Message is displayed in all caps on a telephone
>message sheet with a cradle phone typical of the 1947 era as
>logo and includes the words (so far positively identified): "AS
>THE .... 4 HRS THE VICTIMS OF THE ... YOU FORWARDED TO THE ...
>AT FORT WORTH, TEX. ... THE "CRASH" "STORY" ... FOR 0984
>ACKNOWLEDGES ... EMERGENCY POWERS ARE NEEDED SITE TWO SW OF
>MAGDALENA, NMEX ... SAFE TALK ... FOR MEANING OF STORY AND
>MISSION ... WEATHER BALLOONS SENT ON THE ... AND LAND ... ROVER
>CREWS ... SIGNED  ... TEMPLE"

>Regehr and Johnson also are to present the RPIT findings to the
>MUFON Orange County group on Wednesday night, Sept. 23 in Costa
>Mesa, CA.

- nor this one:

http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/rmysignl.htm

i.e.,

> 1) ...........................***ARY WERE .....................
> AS THE
> 2) ..............*** 4hS THE VICTIMS OF THE ***** *** CONVAY
>ON TO THE
> 3) .............*** at FORT WORTH. THEn
> 4) ............****** ** T** ****** ***** **** **** T** A3****
>********
> 5) .............****** CRASHEs pOw*** *** N***** SITEOne IS
>******** *****
> 6) .................***D** sAfE TaLk ****a**o* we***** BY
>STORY are *****
> 7) .................lly they even PUT FOR BY WEATHER
>BALLOONS ***** were
> 8) ....................**** *** la** l********* *****
> 9)
>10)                                                   Temple

It seems however that the word "crash" and "disk" is the
("big"?) interpretation difference here; which might be an
important one - specifically as concerns the credibility of the
whole Roswell incident (?).

Thus, in my opinion, efforts must be put on an attemt to arrive
at a consensus regarding the interpretation of this specific
word in the photo message.

Though some of the text words seem to be interpreted fairly
similarly, e.g., it seems to be "several" VICTIMS (i.e., more
than one alien body autopsy to be expected?), and that
"something" seemed to have happened at FORT WORTH, TEXas (and/or
maybe at REYKjavik, Iceland?) It is also likely that WEATHER
BALLOONS are involved in some way or other.

By looking at the web site copy (cited above), I must agree that
these photos must be VERY difficult to decipher/interpret.

In any case, these are my personal observations so far. Any
others?

Best regards,

AWS









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                        Re: BWW Media Alert 19980928

From: Bufo Calvin <BufoCalvin@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 08:17:00 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:21:19 -0400
Subject: Re: BWW Media Alert 19980928

Bufo Calvin
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA  94596
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Website: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufo
calvin<;/a>
<A HREF="surprise link to Amazon.com">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=048
6230945/bufosweirdworldA/<;/a>
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this
edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made
to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with
strangers before you e-mail them something.  If you forward this, please make
sure it is clear that you are forwarding it).

September 28, 1998

I have had a chance to do a single viewing so far of the KGB UFO FILES program
so far.  I suppose one of the things that struck me the most was that there
was (I would estimate) less than fifteen minutes of the main footage (the
alleged recovery and alien autopsy) repeated over and over again to make a
ninety minute show.  Neither of these segments impressed me much: the object
in the "recovery" shot looked like it was made out of wood, and the "alien"
torso looked like the detail was painted on to it.  Now, I'm just going from
my first impressions: don't consider these careful opinions, just flash
thoughts.  There was also such an obvious set up for a sequel (host Roger
Moore carefully pointing out a cameraperson shooting inside the "saucer", and
saying that the footage of the interior has not surfaced yet) that it seemed
contrived.  On the other hand, the OZ ENCOUNTERS program which ran on THE
DISCOVERY CHANNEL seemed far more convincing from the partial viewing I've
done.  It had the advantage of allegedly first-person descriptions, which can
seem more truthful.

One request: since AOL went to version 4.0, their web editor (Personal
Publisher) has been down.  They keep telling me that it will come back on-
line.  I have other ways to edit the pages, but have not been able to get them
uploaded so the existing hyperlinks will show them.  Anybody else using AOL
had success?  I'm quite aware that I could go to hosting somewhere else, but
I'd like to get this to work.  Thanks in advance.

Sorry this is late and sketchy: long weekend.  Whoops, just got cut off by
demands here: I'll send this partial one, and try to update later.

On to the listings!

TELEVISION

A&E
Sunday, October 4, 6:00 PM, THE UNEXPLAINED: EXTRATERRESTRIALS (UFOs...which
many people equate with ETs, although there are alternative explanations)

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL
Sunday, October 3, 1:00 PM, INTO THIN AIR (phantom buildings and abandoned
settlements)

SYNDICATED
Thursday, October 1, MONTEL WILLIAMS: psychic Sylvia Browne.

THE LEARNING CHANNEL
Next Friday, October 9, 7:00 PM, 48 HOURS: PSYCHIC AND SKEPTIC
___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly
redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by
e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com.  You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to
Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if
there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t
he week before.
_____________________________

**OPUS is the Organization for Paranormal Understanding and Support. I am an
Executive Boardmember, and Director of the OPUS Educational Institute. OPUS
encourages its officers and Network Associates to express their own opinions:
however, it is important to note that I do not speak for OPUS in this piece
or others presented under my own name.  For more information on OPUS, see its we
bsite at http://members.aol.com/josephxx3






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                           Re: More On Ramey Photo

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:17:45 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:49:13 -0400
Subject: Re: More On Ramey Photo


The RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team) is grateful for the
intense interest shown in the team's preliminary "reading" of the
Ramey Message in the Roswell Photos taken in General Ramey's 8th
Air Force HQ offices on July 8, 1947, and for your suggestions.
This is exactly the kind of help the Team is seeking... not only
your best reading as to the EXACT WORDS but also what the MEANING
of the MESSAGE might be! The Team is waffling on whether the word
is actually "CRASH" or "DISK" -- realizing that this could have
great bearing on the message. We are down to debating in some
cases EACH LETTER!

When it is realized that we all are working from 51-year old
negatives that were developed in great haste due to the deadline
time pressure -- who could ever have dreamed that there still
would be hundreds of enlargements made from the negatives more
than a half century later! -- and we are reading an image that
even at 4x enlargement (16"x20") is still less than a inch in
length, it is simply amazing that we can make out ANY words! (I
really think that General Ramey could not be labeled as
"careless" for "exposing" this message -- which he likely had not
even read at the time -- when I was taking the picture from at
least 10 feet away from him.)

This all will take a lot of patience and persistence but with our
combined efforts we just might finally solve the Mystery of the
Century!

James Bond Johnson







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               Re: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 16:06:20 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:51:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Subject: Re: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 00:31:24 -0400

>>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>>Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:25:37 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Ramey Office Photos Reveal Roswell Secrets

>>The RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team) has invited any and
>>all Roswell Event researchers to join in the quest for the truth
>>by obtaining their own copies of the 1947 Ramey Office Photos
>>from the University of Texas at Arlington Library and Adobe
>>Photo Shop, or similar, software for their computers. Of course,
>>to read the "Ramey Message" only the Ramey/Dubose shot is
>>needed. Nothing else is needed but good eyes and a lot of
>>patience.

><snip>

>Cleared up this image while playing with Photoshop 5.0.

>Oddly enough, some characteristics of the document make me
>believe this is handwritten mainly in capitals rather than
>typed.

>Serge Salvaille

According to my expert here, the letter is not in as good focus
as it could be, so until a blow up of the letter area is
available, made from the negative, it will be difficult to read.





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   Sep > Sep 28

                            Re: KGB Crashed Disc

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:38:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:13:16 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Crashed Disc


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Crashed Disc
>Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:34:18 PDT

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:00:44 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: KGB Crashed Disk

><snip>

>>First and foremost is the crash of the object itself. There were
>>a number of posts which posed the question of how the (sic) disk
>>could bury itself so deeply into the earth. It did not.
>>According to the commentary and the computer simulated crash,
>>the object did break up during the several impacts, leaving only
>>a small portion in the ground.

>Jim,

>The piece leaning against the tree was described, justifiably, as
>the 'large piece' for it appears to be just over 50% of the basic
>round shape. It is certainly not a 'small portion".

I haven't gone back to listen to the commentary, and will accept
the information as true. However, the simulation that they show
clearly shows the craft "bouncing" toward the woods following the
crash. However, we're dealing with a simulation here and that is
to a great extent guesswork anyway.

<snip>

>>my weapons of choice. The proof of this is the FACT that in the
>>45 years I have hunted small game, I've never killed anything,
>>including my buddies.

>At least you sound like the sort of shooter I would appreciate
>being on the enemy's side  ;-)

>>Comments were posted regarding the fact that the rear of this
>>object had not been filmed and/or the film shown. The rear of
>>this object was filmed by a second cameraman who was seen to
>>walk behind the object and shoot film. The story line stated
>>clearly that this particular film was not available. So there.

>You don't think it at all 'convenient' that footage of the rear
>was not shown? C'mon , Jim, a little lateral thinking here,
>please. Go to the UFOKGB web site mentioned in the earlier post
>and have a close look at image 'front6.jpg' and call it up for a
>close look. You will see what appears to bracing behing the prop
>wreck.

That could be bracing (which would be pretty sloppy if this
proves to be a hoax), or the "craft" isn't a flat disk.

It is very convenient that the view from the back side has been
left out, but the validity of this entire scenerio rests on the
ability to independantly test the film.  As it is, this is only
an interesting bit of film.

Steve









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   Sep > Sep 28

                                 Voreppe UFO

From: Joachim Koch <JKoch1@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:40:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:15:05 -0400
Subject: Voreppe UFO


>From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:19:06 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 37

>SPHERICAL UFO HOVERS
>OVER FRENCH BACKYARD

>[...] September 6, 1998, a
>family of four living [...] received the shock
>of their lives.
>     Looking up, [...] "a slow, hovering, seemingly
>metallic shiny sphere about two meters (6.6 feet) above
>the top of a cherry tree."
>     [...] UFO hovered and hummed, the man[...]
>"shot two minutes of videotape, showing the
>departure of the object."
>    [...]     In a brief statement, SEPRA said the
>videotape was "very interesting" and "useable" in terms of
>further UFO research.
>   [...] Centre Nacional des Etudes Spaciaux (CNES)
>saw the videotape and also interviewed the four
>eyewitnesses.
>     Jean-Jacques Velasco of CNES said the UFO
>"looks as if it is floating and then moves away in a
>curious way."  He described the object as "a round
>disc, about 5 meters (16.5 feet) across with a few
>protuberances coming out of it and a red ring around
>its bottom."

>Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:07:11 +0200
>From: Bourdais Gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Voreppe

>To all List members :

>I have more informations on the case of Voreppe which
>confirm, apparently, that it was a balloon.

>What happened is a
>family of Voreppe informed the police that their son had
>dropped a balloon which was fairly large (nearly one meter)
>and in the  shape of a ladybug.

How does this all fit together? A family who is not able to
identify his own son's "ladybug"-balloon? And the sound? Suddenly
there was none? And the "protuberances"? Maybe the familiy is
only afraid of ridicule?

Greetings

Joachim Koch
International Roswell Initiative






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   Sep > Sep 28

                     How To Hold A Scalpel And Scissors

From: Joachim Koch <jkoch1@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:43:00 GMT
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:17:40 -0400
Subject: How To Hold A Scalpel And Scissors


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:00:44 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: KGB Crashed Disk

>In that case, a doctor
>being interviwed, pointed to the fact that the surgeon in that
>film held the scissors incorrectly. It should be held by thumb
>and middle finger, with the index finger then free to "point"
>the scissors. This is supposed to give better control and
>accuracy in directing the instrument properly.

>I noticed that in the KGB autopsy, the cutting scissors were
>handled the same way as in the Roswell film. Are both surgeons
>mishandling or is this correct procedure?

Well, I am a surgeon. The way to hold scissors, as described
above, is the way you learn it. But by the time, you develop your
own way of holding instruments.

So the handling of scissors in some "autopsy footage" is no way
proof for authenticity. And: a pathologist working with dead
tissue may hold the instruments in a different way than a surgeon
who has to do very careful cuts.

Joachim Koch
International Roswell Initiative, Germany






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                            Re: KGB Crashed Disc

From: "A.U.R.A." <aura@telekabel2.nl>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:43:07 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:20:12 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Crashed Disc


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Crashed Disc
>Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:34:18 PDT

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:00:44 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: KGB Crashed Disk

><XL-snip>

>You don't think it at all 'convenient' that footage of the rear
>was not shown? C'mon , Jim, a little lateral thinking here,
>please. Go to the UFOKGB web site mentioned in the earlier post
>and have a close look at image 'front6.jpg' and call it up for a
>close look. You will see what appears to bracing behing the prop
>wreck.

Leanne,

 Like you suggested I took a look at "front6.jpg" , I blew it up
in Photo shop...but...where do you see bracing? Maybe I'm
looking at the wrong spot or just lookin' over it the same way
I'm regularly lookin' over my keys ;-) Could you be a little
more specific, please?

>>I hope this clears up any questions in this matter so that we
>>can all spend time asking the question, "God, The Universe and
>>Everything?" I have been told the answer is 43. I am somewhat
>>skeptical, as I heard this on TV recently.

>42, Jim   :-)

LOL! And all this time I thought the answer was Thursday...

>Regards,

>Leanne Martin
>Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia

With kind regards,

Andy Denne





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 28

             Re: 'Rudiak On Roswell' - Lorenzo Kimball Responds

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:18:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:10:57 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Rudiak On Roswell' - Lorenzo Kimball Responds


>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 16:54:55 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: 'Rudiak On Roswell' - Lorenzo Kimball Responds

>I have permission from Kent Kimball to post this to the UFO
>Updates list.

Here is the reply I just e-mailed to Mr. Kimball:

[Note to EBK. I am attaching this file because of size
limitations on AOL accounts.] Re: Roswell 1947

Date: 98-09-28 12:35:52 EDT
From: DRudiak
To: LORENZO, Kent, KIMBALL

In a message dated 98-09-26 18:54:52 EDT, you write:

>Dennis Stacy has forwarded to me some of your recent comments about my
>web page, http://www.inconnect.com/~lorenzok/roswell.html, on the events
>in Roswell in 1947. I would like to respond to some of your
>observations.

>1. I have never been cited in any of Friedman's books. When he called me
>in 1992 all he asked me was if I was aware of any unusual incidents
>during the summer of 1947. I told him I was not. He did not tell me
>anything about Glenn Dennis or the possibility of aliens being brought
>to the Base Hospital. Neither Randle or Schmitt have ever contacted me.

I asked Kevin Randle about this, and a few days ago he e-mailed
me that he wasn't aware of your existence until fairly recently
(see also excerpt from his recent book below). I have studied
this incident for four years, and I wasn't aware of you either.
And as Dennis Stacy himself pointed out, even the very recent
Air Force "Case Closed" report by Cpt. McAndrew that came out in
July 1997 fails to mention you, even though one of the primary
purposes was to debunk the idea of alien bodies and autopsies. A
whole section is devoted to Glenn Dennis' story and you would
have made an ideal witness to refute it, but apparently McAndrew
was also unaware of you.

As to Friedman, he interviewed you in the fall of 1992, which
would have been too late to incorporate you into his book, which
also came out in 1992. His only book since then ("Top
Secret/Majic," 1996) dealt with entirely different subject
matter, with no mention of the hospital or autopsies being
carried out there. There was one brief mention of Dennis,
referring to his statements that he was called from the base and
told that some bodies had been recovered out in the desert. That
was supposedly the call from the base mortuary officer. Your
statements have relevance here, since you say you would have
acted in the capacity of base mortuary officer, and you don't
recall ever having any dealings with Dennis. But Friedman didn't
get into that, instead using Dennis' statement about body
recoveries in another context.

Since I don't know when or exactly what you may or may not have
told Friedman, it's something you'll have to take up with him.
But many of your objections about what has been said about
Roswell seemed to occur after you said you read some of these
books -- Friedman's published in 1992, and Randle's in 1991 &
1994. So I was asking Dennis Stacy, how could any of these
particular objections of yours have been incorporated into these
books after the fact?

>2. As to my statement that there was no unusual activity, no base
>alerts, no hysteria, no panic in July 1947, you make the following
>comment:

> "So because this one person saw no unusual activity at the base
>hospital-while he was on duty-, or when he was on the golf course, or
>down at the base swimming hole or drinking hole, we are supposed to
>conclude that nothing at all unusual could have happened anywhere on the
>base at all hours of the day and night. That makes zero sense. Kimball,
>e.g., would have had no clearance to be down at the flight line or in
>the hangars, so anything going on down there would have been strictly
>off-limits to him. "

>My response: I am at a loss to understand how you can state that I had
>no clearance to the flight line or hangars. The fact is, I had a Top
>Secret clearance and was very often on the flight line and in many of
>the hangars for a variety of reasons, including participation in
>training programs, familiarization programs, and taking actual flights
>in different aircraft, including training missions. Also, staff meetings
>were held by Major Comstock for the express purposes of sharing
>information about what was going on not only at the hospital but on the
>base in general and to discuss any unusual problems. I did not perform
>my duties, and there were many, in a vacuum.

Apparently I was mistaken about you having absolutely no access.
But its not a place you routinely would have been, nor can I
believe you would have had unlimited access. Another person at
the base was Walter Haut, Blanchard's PIO, who has likewise
stated that he had a Top Secret clearance. He was a WWII
bombardier, and during Operation Crossroads was one of the
people who released instruments from the air at ground zero just
before they blew the bombs. Yet, he says, there were many places
on the flight line to which he did not have access, particularly
any area having to do with the carrying of A-bombs.

Top Secret clearance does not give anyone unlimited access to
everything top secret. Had anything happened down on some highly
restricted part of the flight line that had nothing to do with
your job, you would not have been given access, no matter what
your clearance was, unless you had a clear need-to-know.

>3. As regards my factual assertion that there was no mortuary on the
>Base, you comment as follows:

> "What I don't understand from this statement is how the base dealt
>with any deaths at the base, which must have occurred now and then.
>Where did they take the bodies; how did they prepare them for burial or
>transport? The base hospital very likely would have served as a
>makeshift "mortuary" since most hospitals do have morgues. All we have
>here is a sesmantic problem, where morgue would have been more
>appropriate term than mortuary."

>My comment: The base hospital was a 100-bed facility which dealt with
>short-term cases (7 days). Any patient with serious diseases, major
>injuries, or who required long term care were Air Evacuated to a
>regional hospital, primarily William Beaumont Army Hospital, El Paso,
>Texas. As a consequence there were very few deaths at the
>hospital(which is why we didn't need nor were we authorized a
>pathologist) and when the services of a mortuary were required,including
>embalming,we contracted on a case by case basis with the Ballard
>Funderal Home in Roswell. I think the difference between a mortuary and
>a morgue is more than semantic.

The point was, occasionally there were dead people at the base.
What did you do with them until the mortuary picked them up? I
think there would be a refrigerated room at the hospital, or a
morgue, to place the bodies in the meantime.

Also, how were funerals handled at the base? I assume (perhaps
wrongly) that there were occasional funerals. Where were these
held? My first guess would be the base chapel, but maybe I'm
wrong again.

Incidentally, part of Glenn Dennis' story is exactly what you
say: the base contracted with Ballard Funeral Home, which did
the embalming and provided caskets. Had there been any deaths on
the base while you were there, Dennis would likely have handled
some of them. In fact, the base history mentions a fatal B-29
crash at the base on May 20, 1947, shortly before the so-called
Roswell incident. My point is, you say the base contracted with
Ballard Mortuary Home, you would have acted as base mortuary
officer, yet you also state that you have no memory of having
any dealings with Glenn Dennis. I'm just wondering if isn't
possible that maybe you did deal with Dennis at least once or
twice while you were there and just don't remember it? I'm not
even speaking of "alien bodies" here -- just some ordinary death
in which you would have arranged something with Ballard Funeral
Home and Glenn Dennis in particular.

>4. In the same email you make the following statement about me:
> "The witness was a junior medical officer at the time with no
>general access to all parts of the base, and can only tell us what he
>observed from a very limited perspective, much of it seeming to be the
>base golf course and swimming pool."

>My comment: Although I was "only" a Captain at the time, it so happens I
>was the third ranking officer assigned to the Base Hospital.

I'm afraid you missed my meaning and are taking this far too
personally. You weren't a senior officer _at the base. You
weren't on Blanchard's staff. You weren't in the intelligence
office. You weren't under the Provost Marshal's command. You
weren't a person who would likely have been involved if
something had happened. There were such people, such as Marcel,
Provost Marshall Easley, and Patrick Saunders, all of whom
indicated directly or indirectly that a saucer had crashed. Gen.
Arthur Exon, a former C/O of Wright-Patterson, also stated
flatly that a saucer crash had occurred and bodies had been
recovered.

I don't know how many people were at the base, perhaps a few
thousand. Probably no more than 100 people at the base would
have been directly involved in a crash recovery, so only a few
percent of the base would have had any direct knowledge. You
have to keep that in mind when you evaluate the statements of
others who say they weren't aware of anything happening at the
base.

If you read my comments thoroughly (I don't know what Stacy sent
you, but I did some follow-up posts as well), you should have
noticed that I acknowledged that you probably were aware of
anything happening at the hospital, at least while you were on
duty there. What I stated was that you didn't know everything
going on at the base or off the base. There could have been a
recovery taking place somewhere else and you could have been
totally unaware of it.

>The Commander was a Major - Jack Comstock, we had a Lt. Col. by the name
>of Harold M. Warne who was our Dental Surgeon. I was senior to all the
>Captains assigned by date of rank. As I noted above my access to the
>base facilities was anything but limited. Your assumption that much of
>my time was spent on the golf course or in the swimming pool is
>nonsense. I included reference to these activities only to illustrate
>that life was pretty normal in the summer of 1947 in Roswell, New
>Mexico. We were not obsessed with aliens from outer space

My point was, again, that at any one time you would not be aware
of activities happening elsewhere on the base. I assume you
weren't normally down on the flight line while on duty, but were
at your regular post at the hospital. And I assume when
off-duty, you also normally wouldn't have been down on the
flight line or in the hangars. The vast majority of people at
the base would similarly have had no direct involvement nor have
been aware of anything out of the ordinary happening. And those
who might have known would not necessarily have spoken of it in
the social areas. In some cases, those suspected of being
involved were rapidly transferred off the base. Lt. Robert
Shirkey, e.g., stated he saw the plane to Fort Worth being
loaded with boxes of debris, including I-beams. Col. Blanchard
allowed him to see a piece of metal being carried to the plane.
Shirkey said he was quickly transferred to the South Pacific for
no reason he was ever able to figure out (the position for which
he was ostensibly transferred didn't exist). And also rather
strangely, Deputy base command Lt. Col. Paynes Jennings
personally flew him to his new assignment. Jennings also flew
the plane to Fort Worth, according to Sgt. Robert Porter, who
was on the plane with Marcel. Porter said that on the plane he
was told they were flying the remains of a flying saucer.

>5. I have not seen the article in OMNI magazine about "the last known
>Roswell nurse."Who was this nurse? I will try to find a copy of the
>article so I can comment.

I'm attaching the article. You'll notice its very critical of
Randle and Schmitt (particularly Schmitt) in their investigation
into the nurses. But the main point was that the surviving nurse
(Rosemary J. Brown, formerly Rosemary A. McManus, now deceased)
was aware of something unusual happening at the base, though she
didn't observe anything directly and didn't know exactly what,
and that there was very high security associated with it.
Everything was hushed up by those in charge. So she was another
person who was routinely at the hospital, like you, but she
apparently picked up on something that you did not. I was
contrasting her memory of what happened with yours, since she
was a witness in a very comparable position. However, like you,
she also said she wasn't aware of anything unusual happening at
the base hospital. Nor did anybody talk about it with her, but
she added that was completely the norm at the security-conscious
base.

>6. In discussing the five nurses assigned to the hospital you make the
>following statement:
> "...Kimball wrote that there were only five nurses at the base and
>he knew them well....Kevin Randle pointed this out to me.
>{Victor}Golubic actually discovered that there were around 20 military
>and civilian nurses there at the time. So where did Kimball come up with
>only five?

>My comment: I came up with five because I was there at the time and saw
>them on a daily basis. Is an eyewitness account useless these days?

I personally don't think so, but according to people who debunk
the idea of a saucer crash, definitely yes. There are military
personnel who spoke of a saucer crash. Marcel in particular got
viciously trashed as a pathological liar (neglecting what Ramey
and Blanchard both wrote about him afterwards -- highly
praiseworthy stuff). Bill Rickett, the CICman in Marcel's office
who backed Marcel, has been labeled a "big story-teller" or
senile when he spoke. Gen. Dubose's comments of a very
high-level cover-up and special transport of debris have been
dismissed. Gen. Exon's comments have also been dismissed as
purely second-hand, even though as a high-ranking officer and
former C/O of Wright-Patterson, he would have been in a good
position to know about such things.

In fact, if you read the A.F. Report on Roswell, none of these
important witnesses were mentioned at all. What were they afraid
of? And most of the rest of the witnesses were dismissed as
liars, self-aggrandizers, senile, or having faulty memories due
to the passage of time. Remarkably, the witnesses that were used
suffered from none of these problems.

Believe it or not, I don't dismiss your comments when they fall
within your _direct_ knowledge of what may have occurred. I
believe you when you say that you knew nothing unusual happening
at the base or the hospital. I believe you when you say that you
would have acted in the capacity of base mortuary officer. I
believe you when you say you had no conversations with Glenn
Dennis about caskets or bodies. What I don't accept are the
conclusions you draw that because you personally don't know of
anything unusual, that nothing could have happened.

In one of my posts, I gave the example of an armed robbery at
the local Safeway only a block from where I live, which I had no
idea had happened until I read about it in the newspaper two
days later. I lived very close by and go to the store several
times a week, and I simply didn't know. Not even the people who
worked there talked about it afterwards. And this wasn't some
military base where people were supposed to keep their mouths
shut about highly important matters. Am I to conclude that
because I didn't know, most of the people in town didn't know,
and nobody talked about it at the store when I went there that
it never happened?

>I have talked to Victor Golubic a number of times and he has provided me a
>copy of some of his personnel data, none of which lists 20 military and
>civilian nurses. I don't recall any civilian nurses assigned in the two
>years I was there. Also, a 100-bed, short term care, military facility
>at that time had no such authorization. I seriously doubt that Victor
>told this to Kevin Randle. I have been trying to call Victor today
>without success. I'll continue to do so to see if he actuallygave this
>false information to Randle.

I'll forward this on to Randle for further comment. He said
Golubic had evidence that there were other nurses at the base
other than the five shown in the base yearbook. Randle also
commented that it made sense, since five nurses seemed
inadequate to staff a hospital day and night. For a 100 bed
hospital, I would probably be inclined to agree. For your
immediate reference, here is what Randle wrote in his recent
book, "The Randle Report," 1997, on what Golubic discovered
about the other nurses:

  "In fact, there is no documentation for the for the existence
of a nurse at Roswell named Naomi Self [the name given by Glenn
Dennis]. A researcher in Arizona, V. G. Golubic, undertook the
search for the nurse in much the same fashion that Tom Carey
undertook the search for the archaeologists. Golubic has become,
you might say, the expert on the medical staff at Roswell in
July 1947. And his search has paid off. **He has identified
about eighteen women who were assigned to the base as nurses,
both military and civilian, in the correct time frame.** Nurses
who were not part of the yearbook or the base telephone
directory but whose names did surface in various documents
recovered through Freedom of Information Act requests,
interviews, and other sources. . ."

  "Golubic first located and then spoke with two other nurses,
V. Helbold and C. Walker, who were both at Roswell, one prior to
and the other soon after July 1947. Neither has memories of
Naomi Self, but both remember the five nurses pictured in the
yearbook. According to Golubic, he has found no trace of her,
except for the confirmation provided by David Wagnon. He is
pursuing the situation with a mixed photographic line-up of all
the nurses who were assigned to the base from 1947 through 1948.
Golubic has spoken to Wagnon a number of times about it. He also
points out that he has spoken to twenty to twenty-five members
of the medical team at Roswell, and Naomi just doesn't surface.

  "From the above group, Golubic found and interviewed two other
significant individuals, J. Comstock, the hospital commander in
1947, could recall neither Naomi Self nor the events relating to
the crash. Mrs. W. White, a nurse by training, was also the wife
of the chief of surgery, and part of the only family of
high-ranking members of the medical staff who lived on base. She
had nothing to contribute to the search for Naomi Self.
Curiously, the Air Force had not tried to locate the medical
staff or its commander until Golubic began to investigate."


I hope this excerpt answers some of your questions. Golubic
found the names of 18 nurses in the proper time frame, including
some civilian ones, who worked at the base. Two of them are
named. But your only memory is of the five pictured in the
yearbook. Golubic interviewed the hospital commander Jack
Comstock, and Randle printed his statement that he couldn't
remember Dennis' nurse or anything about a crash taking place. I
don't see any evidence of Randle withholding vital information
here. In fact, he printed all the negative evidence against
Glenn Dennis' story and nurse X as he then knew it from his own
experience and the research of Golubic. It backs up your memory
of events, _except_ for the number of nurses at the base
hospital.

>7. You state that "Freidman...pointed out that Kimball's objection to
>the photo of the base hospital being fiction is bogus." Following is an
>excerpt from a letter I sent to Freidman on 2 September 1997:

Please note, even if your objection is correct, none of this
information could have appeared in any of his books
_retroactively_, now could it?

> "...on the photo of the base hospital, they would have had to not
>only add bricks to the structure but they would have had to add a second
>story. All of the hospital buildings were one story, wooden frame
>buildings. Any such structural change would not only have been unlikely,
>it would haves been financially unfeasible due to budget constraints.
>This photo no way resembles any part of the Base Hospital as I knew it
>in 1947 and again in 1953 when I inspected the facility as a member of
>the 8th Air Force IG team."

I think Friedman's point was that the picture used was taken far
more recently than that. The base hospital had been rebuilt. I
honestly don't know one way or the other. Can you categorically
state that the hospital hadn't been rebuilt since you last
visited it in 1953?

>8. On the supposed autopsy performed at the Base Hospital you offer the
>following explanation:

>"Randle & Schmitt gave the rank of the radiologist who allegedly
>performed the autopsy (and whom they apparently misidentifed(sic) as a
>pathologist) as Major Jesse B. Johnson. Kimball said the yearbook listed
>him as a 1st lieutenant. Apparently so, but Randle says he retired as a
>major. Kimball's objection here then becomes a quibble. However, his
>statement that the radiologist would not have performed the autopsy
>probably has merit. On the other hand, if he was the only doctor
>available at the time maybe not."

>My comments: Again Randle has given you some false information. Jesse
>B. Johnson was a two-year doctor draftee. He was not a career officer
>and did not retire. He merely left the service as a Captain after his
>two year tour of duty.

According to Randle in an e-mail just the other day, his
military record showed that he retired a Major. But again, I'll
forward this on to Randle for his comment.

>Also, surely Randle knows the difference between a pathologist and a
>radiologist. His research here is shoddy at best. None of what he
>reports about the autopsy can be supported by any testimony or evidence. >I thi
nk this is more than a mere "quibble."

I said the issue of his _rank_ (not the autopsy or his
qualifications to do one) was a quibble, especially if his
military record shows that he retired with the rank of major.
(Sometimes the promotions happen at retirement -- you might not
even be aware of the person's final rank from your own
experience. That happened to Walter Haut, e.g. As I recall, he
was promoted from Lt. to Cpt. upon his retirement in April
1948.)

Incidentally, Randle now believes Dennis made up his story about
the nurse and the autopsy, so he would probably agree with you
that there is currently no testimony or evidence to support that
an autopsy happened at the base hospital. That testimony was
pretty much limited to Glenn Dennis.

>Your suggestion that perhaps he could have performed the autopsy if he
>was the only doctor available at the time is untenable. Dr. Jesse B.
>Johnson simply would never have been left solely in charge of the
>hospital. In fact, no one physician would have been placed in that
>position.

Again, I'm afraid you didn't understand my meaning. I said
nothing about him being left in charge of the hospital. I said
that if he happened to be the only physician around who was free
at the moment (which might be true for a radiologist), then
_maybe_ he would have been pressed into duty to perform a
preliminary autopsy. It was purely hypothetical, and I don't
believe it likely myself. That's why I said your comment that
the radiologist wouldn't have done this had merit. However, I
don't consider it to be completely out of the question. Even
radiologists have general medical training and they are quite
knowledgeable about anatomy and pathology.

>The primary reason I prepared the web site on Roswell was to provide
>what I thought was first hand information as to what did NOT take place
>at the Base Hospital in the summer of 1947. You call me a "pretty minor
>character and personally knew a very limited amount." If by this
>comment you are saying I didn't know what was or was not going in the
>base hospital you are dead wrong.

If you go back and reread what I wrote (and I still don't know
exactly what it is that Dennis Stacy sent you -- maybe an edited
version of what I said), you'll see that I DIDN'T dismiss your
comments about the hospital or Glenn Dennis. I said that you
would have had direct knowledge about the goings-on at the
hospital and whether or not you would have called Glenn Dennis,
thus these comments had merit, but you weren't a major player
with regards to what was happening _at the rest of the base_ or
_off the base_ at a recovery site. A recovery of a craft, and
even the transport of bodies could have been going on elsewhere,
and you and many others simply would not have been aware of it,
either on duty or off duty. Can you honestly say that you would
have had a need-to-know?

>You have belittled me and demeaned me
>by your gratuitous remarks about my time at the golf course, swimming
>pool, and drinking hole.

I'm sorry if you took it that way. But you also opened your
remarks with all those statements about how nothing unusual was
going on or being said in these various social and recreational
areas, therefore nothing happened. I have to assume that you had
to have been at the golf course, swimming pool, officers club,
etc. when off-duty in order to have formed your impressions. If
not, then why bring it up?

Furthermore, unless people at Roswell routinely gossiped about
classified matters in these settings, your comments were hardly
relevant. I don't know -- did they? Maybe over a few drinks at
the Officers Club (what I facetiously referred to as the
"drinking hole")?

>I like to think I performed my duties well and
>conscientiously - at least well enough to be promoted and given more
>responsible assignments at higher levels of command and complete over 20
>years of active service.

I never questioned that. What I questioned was exactly what you
would have known in the position that you occupied. That's why I
referred to you as a junior officer and a minor player _at the
base. Absence of gossip down at the officers club or on the golf
course doesn't tell us much. What was relevant was whatever
direct knowledge you may have had or not had. And I believe I
fully acknowledged your statements about the base hospital and
Glenn Dennis as being noteworthy. I also acknowledged your
personal evaluation of Blanchard's character, and noted that it
actually supports the idea that Blanchard would not have acted
on his own in issuing the infamous crashed disk press release,
but would have had it approved from higher up, or may even have
been ordered to put it out.

>As you must be aware I am not the only "witness" who was stationed at
>Roswell Army Air Field during the summer of 1947 who is skeptical about
>the multitude of accounts of the landing of craft from outer space and
>the recovery of alien remains.

No doubt. But please again remember that only a few percent of
the personnel there would have been involved. That would leave
the other 95% or 97.5% honestly stating that they were totally
unaware of anything happening and were skeptical about it all.
There were others who were in a position-to-know who have said
otherwise. There were people like Marcel, the head intelligence
officer, Rickett, one of the CICman in his office, Easley, the
provost marshal, Saunders, on Blanchard's staff, Gen. Exon, Gen.
Dubose, then Gen. Ramey's Chief of Staff (who said the matter
was highly classified, the matter went directly to the White
House, and Gen. Ramey instigated a cover-up), Porter and
Shirkey, who were involved with transport of debris to Fort
Worth, wives and acquaintances of Blanchard (who said Blanchard
told them some highly anomalous material was recovered), family
and acquaintances of Oliver "Pappy" Henderson, one of the senior
pilots (who told many that he had transported alien bodies and
crash debris to Wright Field), and others. The case isn't built
solely around what Glenn Dennis claimed happened at the base
hospital.

>If you have not done so, please take a
>look at Kent Jeffries web site, Anatomy of a Myth,
>http://www.roswell.org/ Here is an excerpt from that site in Jeffries
>own words:

I'm aware of Jeffries' article, and I also spoke to him on the
phone several times while he was in the process of
investigating. He always described himself as an agnostic. There
are many serious flaws of logic and also some serious mistakes
in his article. But I believe the excerpt you provided me was to
point out that many others who were at the base agree that
nothing unusual happened _that they were personally aware of._
However, in his article, Jeffries never dealt with the people at
the base and elsewhere who said they were aware of something
highly important going on, some even saying saucer crash.

There are even some known documents from later speaking of
searching for a possible crashed saucer or of actually
recovering crashed saucers and bodies (two FBI telegrams).
Another FBI document has J. Edgar Hoover grousing on July 15,
1947 that the Army had grabbed a disc and hadn't let the FBI
examine it. This is all much too complicated and controversial
to get into here, but Jeffries didn't mention any of these,
instead citing documents where the person denied knowing
anything about physical evidence for the existence of flying
saucers. I can't get into detailed objections to his arguments
here, other than to mention that the classification on these
documents (except one) was insufficient to discuss the matter,
or the people writing these documents may not have had a
need-to-know, and sometimes even stated there might be some
things going on that they didn't know about.

Incidentally, just a few days ago, it was announced that a piece
of paper being held by Gen. Ramey in Fort Worth has been partly
deciphered from blow-ups and computer enhancement of one of the
photos taken there 50 years ago. Although some of the
fragmentary interpretation I still consider to be debatable, the
telegram or telephone message does seem to clearly mention
"victims," something about a "disc" (context unclear), something
about cover stories and "safe talk," possibly a statement that
"emergency powers are needed," more than one site being
involved, and also two mentions of recovery crews. There is
still no smoking guns of a saucer crash here, since this is
right on the limit of our ability to read the message and not
all of it is showing. Maybe it was some plane crash they still
don't want to talk about for some obscure reason (maybe atomic
weapons, biological weapons?). But it is pretty clear that
something of significance DID happen requiring recovery crews,
it was hushed up, and there were "victims." Don't be too quick
to dismiss this as a nothing event.

David Rudiak


OMNI article on nurses attached.







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             Re: 'Rudiak On Roswell' - Lorenzo Kimball Responds

From: Bourdais Gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:22:47 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:26:35 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Rudiak On Roswell' - Lorenzo Kimball Responds


>Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 16:54:55 -0500 (CDT)
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al

>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 16:56:41 +0100
>From: Lorenzo K. Kimball <lorenzok@inconnect.com>
>To: DRudiak@aol.com
>CC: dstacy@texas.net, Michael Kimball <michaelw@inconnect.com
>Subject: Re: Roswell 1947

>Since last September, I have spoken with a total of 15 B-29
>pilots and 2 B-29 navigators, all of whom were stationed at
>Roswell Army Air Field in July 1947. Most of them heard nothing
>about the supposed crashed-saucer incident until years later,
>after all the publicity started. The few men who did recall
>hearing something about the incident at the time of its
>occurrence said that the inside word was that the debris was
>from a downed balloon of some kind and that there was no more
>than "one wheelbarrow full." Not one single man had any direct
>knowledge of a crashed saucer or of any kind of unusual
>material. Even more significantly, in all of their collective
>years with the 509th Bomb Group, not one of these men had ever
>encountered any other individual who had such knowledge.

I have a brief comment here (brief because some people are
getting tired of Roswell):

Many pilots of Roswell were not even aware of the press release
and the press conference which made their way to become the
biggest title in the New York Times of July 9 and many other
newspapers. This squares well with what Walter Haut told me,
that instruction was given to make silence on the incident at
the base, and he himself quickly forgot it.

In addition to that, the only remembrance of some pilots was the
rumor that there was just a wheelbarrow full of balloon debris :
but this was not enough for a Mogul balloon train, which means
that, had it been the true story, they did not even know about
it. This is, it seems to me, very revealing about military
secrecy.

By the way, Walter Haut also told me that, although Jesse Marcel
was his neighbor and a good friend, he was not very talkative :
"You know, he was a security man !".

Gildas Bourdais









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                   Re: Info Needed on 1967 Sudan Incident

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:45:39 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 09:15:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Info Needed on 1967 Sudan Incident

>From: Doc Barry <authority@webtv.net>
>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:17:01 -0700 (MST)
>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Info needed 1967

>The following is taken from an extensive document I received. If
>anyone has any information on the event referenced, please
>contact me.

>Excerpt:

>"DIA document, dated August 17, 1967 out of Sudan, reads:

>1. (U) Local press 17 Aug 67 reported that a satellite, cube
>shaped, weighing approximately three tons discovered 3 August 50
>miles from Kutum 1425N 2460E. Satellite described as made of
>soft metal presumably light aluminum in oblong cubes measuring
>two inches by one inch tightly fastened together and covered by
>a silky material. Nationality not identified as no inscriptions
>evident on outer surface. Local authorities in El Fasher have
>photographs and with difficulty cut samples."

>Any information on this would be appreciated. Thanks.  == Doc

<snip>

Hi Doc,

I have read about this incident in several UFO books.

A copy of the actual Department of State document regarding this
alleged UFO crash in Sudan can be found in Clifford E. Stone's
'U.F.O.s Are Real: Extraterrestrial Encounters Documented by the
U.S. Government' (Doc. 6-9).

Since Sergeant Clifford Stone, U.S. Army (retired) claims to
have actively participated in several real UFO crash retrievals
and has even encountered the living and dead occupants of these
crashed UFOs, he is the one to ask for further details. Clifford
Stone can be reached c/o Roswell, New Mexico's UFO Enigma
Museum.

Nick Balaskas







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                             Snipers & Shooters

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:11:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 09:09:37 -0400
Subject: Snipers & Shooters


Hello all,

I'm rather new to the list, having only participated for a
little over a week or so....

Boy, what a week!

I had heard much about the listing from another source and
thought I might try wading into the torrent of observations and
technical data to see if I might learn something or, perhaps,
offer my own insight into the subject of UFOs. I'm hardly
keeping a direct count but the vast majority of listings seem to
have very little, if nothing, to do with discussions about real
evidence or technical data.

Instead there seems to be an emphasis on "beating each other
up".

One person slams another. Then someone writes in to take revenge
on the original slammer. Then, yet, someone ELSE writes in to
slam THAT person. It seems to be an endless cyber-gang war with
drive by cyber hits rattling all around us....

Granted, there's freedom of speech; that's hardly an issue and I
think everyone knows that. But there is a difference, I think,
between a healthy discussion of a particular topic and an almost
religious mantra that seems to go like this:

UFOs are REAL, man, and if you disagree with me then you're
either a Fed or a cynic or, or... just plain stupid!

-OR-

UFOs are FAKE, man, and if you disagree with me then you're
either a nut or a fraud or, or... just plain stupid!

I mean, is this all really necessary?

I have tried my best to participate from a purely technical
standpoint. My observations on the Roswell film and the Soviet
film were based on the very precise technical realities of
dealing with the photographic medium of film, processing and
cinematography. I felt that it would be best to concentrate on
something that wasn't as open to speculation or conceptual
theory. I thought it would be something that people could relate
to and understand.

I'm not sure I've succeded.

Here's an example:

While many people today seem to use the term "film" and "video"
interchangably, they are two totally different mediums; one
being totally electronic using tape and the other being chemical
based using a light sensitive film emulsion that requires
processing.

Now, to some, this may seem obvious. But the fact that the terms
are commonly used in substitution for each other proves how
un-obvious  it really is to many participating in this listing.
Or perhaps it shows how unfocused many are in their thought
processes. This is not a slam against the average writer. After
all, how many times have we seen a news person on TV say, "While
we were filming this segment..." when they really meant, "While
we were shooting video of this segment." It's starting to creep
into the lexicon.

Why is this important?

Because, those seeking "proof" or "direct evidence" may have it
staring them in the face and not even realize it unless they
stop being emotional about it and use common sense to guide
their beliefs and interpretation of the available data. For
instance, if someone said they had the original videotape of the
Lincoln assassination, no one would buy into that for obvious
reasons. There would be no discussions about the accuracy of the
costumes or the actors or the props seen in the video because
there was no such thing as video when he was assassinated and
everyone knows it.

Likewise, it is a foolish waste of time to discuss, at length,
the accuracy of the Soviet costumes, props, vehicles, etc when
there was no such thing as the 16mm color negative that captured
the image being discussed. 16mm color negative did not exist at
the time the Soviet film was supposedly produced. In similar
fashion, the results of the Roswell film do not match the
methods, equipment and conditions that the cameraman insists
existed, no matter how you look at it.

Do I believe in UFOs or that Roswell is a true incident? My gut
reaction is yes. But, at best, this only my opinion and is
subject to change the more informed I am. There are many areas
of expertise that I do not have training in. I live and breath
for the opportunity to discuss REAL evidence, either pro or con,
that would either support or correct my opinion. Zealots
chanting that something is true or false, "just because" are
hardly speeding the plow for their beliefs.

I have no fear of the truth.

But those that do would be doing us all favor by keeping their
heavily biased slams to themselves and spend more time looking
for factual information to talk about.

Later,

Roger Evans






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                    8th Annual International UFO Congress

From: authority@webtv.net (Doc Barry)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:06:55 -0700 (MST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 09:20:21 -0400
Subject: 8th Annual International UFO Congress

8TH ANNUAL International UFO Congress: Feb. 21-27, 1999
8TH ANNUAL
International UFO Congress
Convention
Film Festival & EBE Awards
FEBRUARY 21 THROUGH 27, 1999

Conference schedules & daily rates will be available in late
October. Initial speaker schedules and registration packets will
be available in late October

FULL ATTENDANCE PACKAGE INCLUDES:
Eight night's accommodations (arrival - Sat., Feb. 20, departure
- Sun., Feb. 28) at the River Palms Resort located on the
Colorado River in Laughlin, Nevada, (1 1/2 hours east of Las
Vegas) - Daily $4.00 meal credit coupon - Admission to all
lectures (Approx. 30 expert speakers from around the world will
be scheduled. Sessions will vary from 1 to 3 hours.) - Admission
to the UFO Film Festival, which screens the latest UFO
Documentaries for 1998 - Admission to the "Meet Your Speaker
Cocktail Party", with drinks, hors d'oeuvres, Door Prizes & Live
Entertainment - Admission to the Grand Finale Dinner Party and
EBE Awards Ceremony.

FULL ATTENDANCE PACKAGE PRICES: For early registrations received
on or before January 22, 1999, the full package is $360.00 per
person/double occupancy and $460.00 per person/single occupancy.
All registrations received after January 22 are $420.00 per
person/double occupancy and $520.00 per person/single occupancy.
Final cut-off date for all advance registrations will be February
17 (4 PM - Mountain time).

ATTENDEE PACKAGE WITHOUT HOTEL ROOM:
For those who don't need a hotel room, the full convention package
(excluding the hotel room and $4.00 meal coupons) will be $250.00 if
booked by Jan. 22, and $275.00 after Jan. 22.

PARTIAL ATTENDANCE PACKAGE
PRICES:
Attendance for hotel rooms and conference admission can be booked
for as for as little as one day and night. Room rates will be
$21.00 per person/double occupancy, and $34.00 per person/single
occupancy. (Prices include a daily $4.00 meal credit coupon, and
all room taxes.)

TRANSPORTATION
There are several airlines and charters which fly directly to
the Laughlin/Bullhead City Airport. (The River Palms has
complimentary shuttles from this airport.) For those of you
flying into Las Vegas, there will be special shuttles scheduled
for Feb. 20, 21 and 28. There, is also scheduled commercial
shuttle service available throughout the week to and from Las
Vegas. Special car rental discounts will also be available.
Transportation information will be provided with the information
packets in late October.

MEMBER DISCOUNTS:
Members in current standing receive a $25.00 discount on full
attendance packages.

For further information, or to be added to our mailing list,
contact:

INTERNATIONAL UFO CONGRESS
9975 Wadsworth Pkwy, #K2-274
Westminister, CO 80021
Phone 303-543-9443
FAX 303-543-8667

[Retyped and reformatted from a FAX by Patrick Bailey, Sept. 25, 1998.]
-------
All additional info. will be posted at the
International UFO Congress Website at:
http://www.padrak.com/ufo/
(which has just been updated.)

~~~~~Get BREAKING news plus UFO/ET news - NOW - click on "What's Up
Doc?" www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518







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   Sep > Sep 29

                      Exchanging UFO-related Web Links

From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@foto.infi.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 23:13:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:07:57 -0400
Subject: Exchanging UFO-related Web Links

We are seeking exchanging links with other good UFO related
websites. If interested email me at swduncan@foto.infi.net

Thanks.
Stefan Duncan
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Stefan Duncan
Director of XPI
Editor of AUFON
5396 Sumac Circle
Fayetteville, N.C. 28304
swduncan@foto.infi.net
http://www.aufon.com
ICQ 11878618
(910-425-2976)









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                           Making Money With UFOs

From: Doc Barry <authority@webtv.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 18:31:53 -0700 (MST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:06:28 -0400
Subject: Making Money With UFOs

Did you get one of these magnificent invitations? No? Read
below.

-------------------------------------------------

WITH STEVEN M. GREER, M.D., CSETI DIRECTOR
November 13-19, 1998

Don't miss this Ambassadors to the Universe training with CSETI
Director Dr. Steven Greer, at a to be announced location between
Phoenix and Sedona, Arizona.

<sections snipped>

REGISTRATION: Includes Working Group Training Kit and tapes and
all tuition.

Before Oct. 1, 1998: $525 --- After Oct. 1, 1998: $600>>

-------------------------------------------------

Dr. Steven Greer, who reported U.S. Special Forces using nerve
gas in an attack on extraterrestrials in the U.S. The story was
quickly removed from the CSETI website.

"Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the intelligence of
the American public"......Phineas T. Barnum

~~~~~Get BREAKING news plus UFO/ET news - NOW - click on "What's Up
Doc?" www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518







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                               MIB Abduction?

From: Robert Earle <Robert_Earle/UT/ASP@autolivasp.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:34:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 09:58:27 -0400
Subject: MIB Abduction?


I wanted to ask the list if they have ever heard of abduction
or contact encounters involving MIB type entities?

I have been talking to the wife of a person at my work, she has
told him of several encounters since childhood where she was
"paralyzed in her bed" and couldn't move or scream. The "man" is
darkly dressed in an aniquated tuxedo type outfit. Her first
real memories of him are around the age of seven years old.

She says he once "allowed" her to scream, and then immediately
raised a finger and shook it and his head as if to say "no, no,
no" She ran to her parent's bedroom, frightened, and they sent
her back to bed passing it off as a boogie man type story. Her
room was downstairs from her parent's, when she started to head
back down the stairs, he was at the bottom of them, still
shaking his head and finger silently at her. She rarely talks to
her husband about these incidents, but has told him they've
continued, and been as recent as a few weeks ago.

The things that seem to make this story tangible to me are this:

She does not associate it with any kind of known or publicized
activity, even though many of her experiences/feelings match
what I've seen documented of abductees. And the description of
the entity itself, it's mannerisms, antiquated dress,
threatening/intimidatiing effect, match the descriptions I've
read of MIB encounters.

The only difference is, what I've usually read of MIB encounters
occur after a person has had a sighting or encounter of other
alien life forms or UFO's. Her's seem strictly to involve this
entity. Has anyone ever read or heard of MIB or similar entities
being the main contact?

If anyone has any related stories, suggestions, comments or
ideas, please respond to this message.


Robert ... Here was a tree...
http://www.geocities.com/area51/dunes/7326








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                           Re: More On Ramey Photo

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:31:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:01:14 -0400
Subject: Re: More On Ramey Photo


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:17:45 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: More On Ramey Photo & Note

>The RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team) is grateful for the
>intense interest shown in the team's preliminary "reading" of the
>Ramey Message in the Roswell Photos taken in General Ramey's 8th
>Air Force HQ offices on July 8, 1947, and for your suggestions.
>This is exactly the kind of help the Team is seeking... not only
>your best reading as to the EXACT WORDS but also what the MEANING
>of the MESSAGE might be! The Team is waffling on whether the word
>is actually "CRASH" or "DISK" -- realizing that this could have
>great bearing on the message. We are down to debating in some
>cases EACH LETTER!

>When it is realized that we all are working from 51-year old
>negatives that were developed in great haste due to the deadline
>time pressure -- who could ever have dreamed that there still
>would be hundreds of enlargements made from the negatives more
>than a half century later! -- and we are reading an image that
>even at 4x enlargement (16"x20") is still less than a inch in
>length, it is simply amazing that we can make out ANY words! (I
>really think that General Ramey could not be labeled as
>"careless" for "exposing" this message -- which he likely had not
>even read at the time -- when I was taking the picture from at
>least 10 feet away from him.)

>This all will take a lot of patience and persistence but with our
>combined efforts we just might finally solve the Mystery of the
>Century!

>James Bond Johnson


The fact that this work is being done, and with such dedication
and focus, is a testiment to those doing it. Here exists the
very possible proof one way or the other, of what Roswell was
all about.

Personally, I would like to extend my thanks and appreciation,
no matter the answer, to your team.  If the answer is what many
expect, it is the most important work EVER undertaken, in my
opinion, at least.

Thanks and good luck... BTW, after you are thru with Roswell,
maybe you guys should go after the Shroud of Turin, eh?

Jim Mortellaro,
Con mucho gusto







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                         Re: Salon Magazine Article

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:10:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:22:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Salon Magazine Article


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 98 10:36:17 PDT

>>Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 23:34:09 -0400
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Salon Magazine Article
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:11:37 -0400
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Salon Magazine Article - List Only

>>>Source: http://www.salonmagazine.com:80/it/feature/1998/09/22feature.html>

>>>Salon Magazine

>>>SALON | Sept. 22, 1998

>Yes, the Salon piece is rubbish, written by a hack with naught
>but ignorance and prejudice to guide her. In other words, your
>standard mainstream-media treatment of ufology.

>On the other hand, there is a bright side. Whenever I read
>something like this, I think as follows: Here I am reading about
>How do I know, when I am reading about something I know nothing
>about, that the writer knows anything about it?

>It makes for healthy skepticism.

If this is the "bright side" of an article like this...
I don't want to look at the dull side.






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                   Re: How To Hold A Scalpel And Scissors

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 08:03:16 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:23:37 -0400
Subject: Re: How To Hold A Scalpel And Scissors


>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:43:00 GMT
>From: Joachim Koch <jkoch1@compuserve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: How to hold a scalpel and scissors

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:00:44 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: KGB Crashed Disk

>>In that case, a doctor
>>being interviwed, pointed to the fact that the surgeon in that
>>film held the scissors incorrectly. It should be held by thumb
>>and middle finger, with the index finger then free to "point"
>>the scissors. This is supposed to give better control and
>>accuracy in directing the instrument properly.

>>I noticed that in the KGB autopsy, the cutting scissors were
>>handled the same way as in the Roswell film. Are both surgeons
>>mishandling or is this correct procedure?

>Well, I am a surgeon. The way to hold scissors, as described
>above, is the way you learn it. But by the time, you develop your
>own way of holding instruments.

>So the handling of scissors in some "autopsy footage" is no way
>proof for authenticity. And: a pathologist working with dead
>tissue may hold the instruments in a different way than a surgeon
>who has to do very careful cuts.
>
>Joachim Koch
>International Roswell Initiative, Germany

Absolutely.  I interviewed a number of surgeons and pathologists when
this issue first came up.  They all said that they learned the
thumb and middle finger hold in school, but many changed later, and
they all thought (Americans and Canadians) that the way the "doctor"
held the scissors in the Santilli film was a more "European" style.

Bob








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                            Re: KGB Crashed Disc

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:02:44 PDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:15:09 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Crashed Disc


>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:38:23 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Crashed Disc

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Crashed Disc
>>Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:34:18 PDT

>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:00:44 EDT
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: KGB Crashed Disk

>><snip>

>>>First and foremost is the crash of the object itself. There were
>>>a number of posts which posed the question of how the (sic) disk
>>>could bury itself so deeply into the earth. It did not.
>>>According to the commentary and the computer simulated crash,
>>>the object did break up during the several impacts, leaving only
>>>a small portion in the ground.

>>Jim,

>>The piece leaning against the tree was described, justifiably, as
>>the 'large piece' for it appears to be just over 50% of the basic
>>round shape. It is certainly not a 'small portion".

>I haven't gone back to listen to the commentary, and will accept
>the information as true. However, the simulation that they show
>clearly shows the craft "bouncing" toward the woods following the
>crash. However, we're dealing with a simulation here and that is
>to a great extent guesswork anyway.

><snip>

>>>my weapons of choice. The proof of this is the FACT that in the
>>>45 years I have hunted small game, I've never killed anything,
>>>including my buddies.

>>At least you sound like the sort of shooter I would appreciate
>>being on the enemy's side  ;-)

>>>Comments were posted regarding the fact that the rear of this
>>>object had not been filmed and/or the film shown. The rear of
>>>this object was filmed by a second cameraman who was seen to
>>>walk behind the object and shoot film. The story line stated
>>>clearly that this particular film was not available. So there.

>>You don't think it at all 'convenient' that footage of the rear
>>was not shown? C'mon , Jim, a little lateral thinking here,
>>please. Go to the UFOKGB web site mentioned in the earlier post
>>and have a close look at image 'front6.jpg' and call it up for a
>>close look. You will see what appears to bracing behing the prop
>>wreck.

>That could be bracing (which would be pretty sloppy if this
>proves to be a hoax), or the "craft" isn't a flat disk.

Steve,

I never said that the 'craft' was dead flat, I did, however, say
that the rear section that is just visible between people
appears 'too square'. That is 'box-like' in comparison with the
very aerodynamic front that is visible hence my thinking that
its some form of bracing. Have you had a look at this image yet?

Also, the simulation was based on what? Where were the photos of
the the primary and secondary impact sites (they may have been
shown in the tv show but they're not on this web site yet)?
Where was the photo of earth gouges as it slammed into the tree,
and for that matter, the damage to the tree itself. Why do the
photos of the 'large piece' not show any rim dents on the
'craft' that was flimsy enough to break up on impact - it
appears to be wholly (and unbelievably) undamaged in that
regard.

Such photos are essential to at least help researchers guage the
amount of energy expended in the smash. And the primary impact
zone can help calculate the angle of impact.

>It is very convenient that the view from the back side has been
>left out, but the validity of this entire scenerio rests on the
>ability to independantly test the film.  As it is, this is only
>an interesting bit of film.

>Steve

I disagree - the validity depends on the new Russia that let
outsiders view their files also letting them see the 'remains'
proper. If there are as many corrupt scientists, bureaucrats and
politicians in the new Russia as we are led to believe (such as
with reports of them selling nuclear weaponds componentry, etc.,
illegally) then what is a piece of genuine space junk to some
comrade who needs to make a buck (or rouble) in desperate
economic times?

Regards,

Leanne Martin
Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia






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   Sep > Sep 29

                            Re: KGB Crashed Disc

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:20:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:20:37 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Crashed Disc

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
To: updates@globalserve.net
Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Crashed Disc
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:07:32 PDT


>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:43:07 +0100
>From: "A.U.R.A." <aura@telekabel2.nl>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Crashed Disc

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Crashed Disc
>>Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:34:18 PDT

>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:00:44 EDT
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: KGB Crashed Disk

>><XL-snip>

>>You don't think it at all 'convenient' that footage of the rear
>>was not shown? C'mon , Jim, a little lateral thinking here,
>>please. Go to the UFOKGB web site mentioned in the earlier post
>>and have a close look at image 'front6.jpg' and call it up for a
>>close look. You will see what appears to bracing behing the prop
>>wreck.

>Leanne,

> Like you suggested I took a look at "front6.jpg" , I blew it up
>in Photo shop...but...where do you see bracing? Maybe I'm
>looking at the wrong spot or just lookin' over it the same way
>I'm regularly lookin' over my keys ;-) Could you be a little
>more specific, please?

Andy & List,

I have attached a jpeg of the right side of the photo image in
question. Clealy visible is the 'box-like' effect directly
behind the magazine of (Kalishnikov?) rifle.

Note the 'box-like' structure is extremely square looking and
has uniform colour as interpreted by my Coreldraw5 photo
software indicative of no curvature at all.

Note too, that if the line of 'box' is followed upwards it ends
abruptly behind the guard's arm.

Also, does anyone know whether the rifles are of the correct
vintage?

Regards,

Leanne Martin
Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia






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                    For Collectors Of 'Alien' Art-effects

From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:08:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:08:26 -0400
Subject: For Collectors Of 'Alien' Art-effects



>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:48:09 -0500
>Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:48:09 -0500
>Subject: U-Haul's 'UFO' Trucks

>From: http://www.uhaul.com/html/honors_nm.htm


>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

>U-HAUL HONORS NEW MEXICO WITH TRUCK GRAPHIC IMAGE TO BE UNVEILED
>AT INT'L. UFO MUSEUM IN ROSWELL

>ROSWELL, N.M.  (Jan. 5, 1998) U-Haul=AE International, Inc., in
>conjunctionwith the International UFO Museum & Research Center
>(IUFOMRC) will unveil to the public a spectacular new U-Haul
>Super Graphics(SM) truck image promoting the State of New Mexico
>on Roswell=92s Main Street, in front of the IUFOMRC, 114 N. Main
>St., on Monday, Jan. 12, 1998 at 10 a.m. Local, state and
>national dignitaries have been invited, to be addressed by
>Roswell Mayor Tom Jennings, IUFOMRC Director Deon Crosby and
>representatives from U-Haul International's headquarters in
>Phoenix.

>The vibrant, larger-than-life images are designed to recognize
>America's fascination with the 1947 Roswell incident, as well as
>the IUFOMRC's contribution to tourism in the Land of Enchantment.
>The U-Haul Super Graphics Salute to America(SM) Campaign was begun
>in 1988 to recognize North American mobility by displaying slogans
>and distinctive features of all 50 United States and seven
>Canadian provinces. The Roswell Incident/New Mexico graphic
>represents one of the first in a new generation of truck graphics
>created by the do-it-yourself household moving industry leader in
>nearly 10 years.

>Anytime we at the IUFOMRC are approached by an organization that
>is willing to go one step further to produce an educational
>perception of UFOs or extraterrestrials, we are thrilled and
>honored to be partners in the effort.  U-Haul didn't haphazardly
>slap together a graphic for this project, said Museum Director
>Deon Crosby. Members of the production team at U-Haul took the
>time to research the Roswell Incident.  They made a trip to the
>International UFO Museum, they made phone calls and they asked
>questions.  As a result, the graphic is a credible representation
>of the emotion of the celebrated UFO crash of 1947.

>John JT Taylor, executive vice president of Fleet Management for
>U-Haul International, Inc., explains, As U-Haul celebrates over
>50 years as part of Americans' lives, it's our pleasure to join
>forces with the State of New Mexico and the International UFO
>Museum in Roswell.  People in the communities and on the highways
>of North America will have the privilege of seeing this
>larger-than-life image of the Roswell incident and the museum for
>years to come. We're proud to supplement the effort to promote
>tourism in the state by adding the mysterious copy line, 'What
>really happened in Roswell' to the images on our moving vans.

>Decals for at least 300 moving vans will be produced at Kar-Go
>Decal Company in Ivyland, Pa., and will be promptly shipped to
>production facilities in Massachusetts and Pennsylvania. There,
>the 3M decal material featuring IUFOMRC images promoting the
>State of New Mexico will be attached to U-Haul van boxes,
>installed on chassis and will be moving families one-way or
>locally across America by the end of January.

>Copyright 1998 U-Haul International, Inc.
>All rights reserved.

Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:29:59 PDT
From: Rod Brock <rodbrock@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: U-Haul Corp. Roswell Graphic Found
To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

I was hoping it was just a false rumor.  But view, and weep, or laugh,
or whatever...

http://www.uhaul.inter.net/supergraphics/sg_nm_alien.htm

Rod






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                    Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:43:20 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:11:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell 'Alien Autopsy' Film Junk


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 23:09:17 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Roswell Alien Autopsy Film Junk

I've been in Germany on a magazine assignment and am just now
catching up on my e-mail reading.  I don't have any idea who
Roger Evans is, but his post copied below can not go unchallenged.

>Hey, all.

>After reviewing a variety of articles and websites, the story I
>get about the Santilli Roswell film is as follows: The film was
>shot by an Army cameraman in a hurried state using a standard
>issue Bell and Howell wind-type 16mm camera under normal and low
>lighting. Some of the film was processed right away and is
>currently under "top security" lock and key by the government.
>The balance of the film (approximately 25 reels) required
>special "push" processing due to the low lighting and was kept
>separate by the cameraman. Changes in command as the Airforce
>took over ufo investigations allowed the cameraman to "slip
>through the cracks" and keep the processed reels. Later, he sold
>the films to Santilli where they then ended up on national
>television amid much debate, yadda, yadda, yadda...

>Amazingly, there still seems to be those that believe the film
>is real. I can guarantee that it isn't. Here's why:

>If the cameraman is to be believed, the autopsy footage was shot
>under low light resulting in the need to have the film "push"
>processed. For those unfamiliar, this means that the film was
>underexposed during the shooting and then processed longer than
>normal to help bring out the latent image. This is supposed to
>account for the tell-tale grainy look of the film. If this is
>true, then why is most of the film OVER exposed? I've been a
>professional cinematographer for 20 years and I can assure you
>that push processed film will appear properly exposed, at best,
>with occasional patches of underexposure but never overexposed.

Bull!  This film was REVERSAL processed, and this is far more
likely to produce an overexposed look than an underexposed look.
Most of it appears to be properly exposed, but there are
variations in density which are consistent with the hand
processing claimed by the cameraman.  Besides, only one label has
the notation that it was push processed, and I don't think anyone
has said that all of the film was treated in this way.

>But why should the film be underexposed in the first place?
>Light bulbs are THE cheapest thing that the military would need
>to provide for such an important event. Did they really draw the
>line for such an acquisition? I picture a high level meeting
>where the line items are approved:

This is just plain silly.  As I have documented in my
presentations with Eastman Kodak documents, film was in short
supply at the time, and the military's "first dibs" had been
revoked.  They used what they could get.  In this case, Kodak
Super XX, which was the film of choice for most documentation
anyway, and was specifically recommended by Kodak for surgical
procedures, autopsies, etc.

The lights would not have been overly bright in the room because
the filming was not the FIRST priority, but a secondary
consideration.

>In addition, the type of camera used wasn't a "reflex" type.
>That is, there was no way to view directly through the taking
>lens. Therefore, these cameras were fitted with fixed wide angle
>lenses, usually around 10mm, to provide a field of view wide
>enough to frame the subject despite the lack of accurate
>"targeting". Even if the aperture were wide open (which surely
>it would be if operating under low light) a 10mm lens would
>still allow proper focusing from about 3 inches to infinity. So
>how come much of the image is out of focus?

Nonsense.  The camera in question has a C-Mount.  Do you know
what that is, Roger?  It means you can change the lens by just
unscrewing one and screwing in another.  It may have been fitted
with a three-lens turret, since all of the footage was not shot
with the same focal length lens.

The normal lens for the camera was a 20 - 25 mm, not a 10 mm. The
cameraman says he used the "normal" lens for most, and the "tele"
for some.

Now I am not saying the film is real.  I still do not know.  But
I have said from the beginning that if we discount it as a fake
we must do so on real evidence, not nonsense like the above.

The jury is still out on the Santilli film.  It sure looks a lot
more real than this recent "KGB film" to me!!!!

Bob Shell








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                   Screening and Discussion w/Budd Hopkins

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:40:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:45:22 -0400
Subject: Screening and Discussion w/Budd Hopkins


Hello All,

For those of you who live in the New York, New Jersey,
and Conneticut tri-state area, or who will be in the
New York area on October 6, 1998 I offer the following;

Screening and Discussion w/Budd Hopkins

An Arts and Entertainment production for their series,
"The Unexplained'. The program to be screened is 'Alien
Abductions', and features Hopkins and several cases of
the phenomenon.  This is one of the better television
efforts at presenting this subject fairly and intelligently.
Hopkins will be present for the discussion to follow.

Sponsored by:
The Friends of the Institute of Noetic Sciences

When:
Tues, Oct. 6,1998

What Time:
6:30 - 8:00 pm

Location:
A.R.E. of New York Center
150 W.28th,
10th floor Suite 1001,
New York, New York

$10 at the door.

Reservations are suggested.  (212) 741-2207
*****************************************
Look for further news about our planned November 14th

"New York UFO/Abduction Conference"

Featured Speakers will be:

Budd Hopkins, Author/Researcher ("Witnessed; The True
Story of the Brooklyn Bridge Abduction")

Dr.David Jacobs, Author/Researcher ("The Threat: The
Secret Agenda")

Jerome Clarke, Author/Researcher ("UFO Encyclopedia")

This will be a one day conference featuring individual
presentations from each of the speakers and topped off
by a panel discussion and Q&A with all of them. The
evening discussion and Q&A will be moderated by
Greg Sandow, Journalist.

It promises to be one of the best mini-events of the
year. You won't want to miss it! Seating is limited
so please try to reserve your seat well in advance.
The conference will begin promptly at 10:30 am and
continue (with lunch and dinner breaks) for the entire
day. Tickets purchased for the event in advance are
$60. for the whole day and includes -all- lectures
and the panel discussion. Tickets purchased at the door
on the day of the conference will be $90. We don't
expect to have too many available seats on the day of
the conference so please get your reservations in early!
The conference will be held at an auditorium located
centrally in Manhattan. Details will follow this message
shortly.

Resrevations can be made by telephone, snail mail or
e-mail at the following:

Reservations:

Telephone: 1(212) 645-5278

Snail mail:
Intruders Foundation
Conference
PO Box 30233
NY, NY, 10011

E-mail: jvif@spacelab.net

The event is being staged as a fund raiser for the
Intruders Foundation and all contributions will be
most welcome. There will be book signings with
the featured authors and books and tapes will also
be made available and on sale. People seeking infor-
mation about their own experiences will be able to
ask questions and get first hand information from
the folks that are on the forefront of UFO and
abduction research.

Don't miss this one! It promises to be the premier
UFO/Abduction conference of the year. Again, seating
will be limited so get your reservations in early!

Peace,

John Velez, Webmaster IF-AIC

________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
________________________________________________






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                           Re: Snipers & Shooters

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:43:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:40:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Snipers & Shooters


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:11:05 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Can't we all just get along?

>Hello all,

>I'm rather new to the list, having only participated for a
>little over a week or so....

>Boy, what a week!

>I had heard much about the listing from another source and
>thought I might try wading into the torrent of observations and
>technical data to see if I might learn something or, perhaps,
>offer my own insight into the subject of UFOs. I'm hardly
>keeping a direct count but the vast majority of listings seem to
>have very little, if nothing, to do with discussions about real
>evidence or technical data.

>Instead there seems to be an emphasis on "beating each other
>up".

>One person slams another. Then someone writes in to take revenge
>on the original slammer. Then, yet, someone ELSE writes in to
>slam THAT person. It seems to be an endless cyber-gang war with
>drive by cyber hits rattling all around us....

>Granted, there's freedom of speech; that's hardly an issue and I
>think everyone knows that. But there is a difference, I think,
>between a healthy discussion of a particular topic and an almost
>religious mantra that seems to go like this:

>UFOs are REAL, man, and if you disagree with me then you're
>either a Fed or a cynic or, or... just plain stupid!

>-OR-

>UFOs are FAKE, man, and if you disagree with me then you're
>either a nut or a fraud or, or... just plain stupid!

>I have tried my best to participate from a purely technical
>standpoint. My observations on the Roswell film and the Soviet
>film were based on the very precise technical realities of
>dealing with the photographic medium of film, processing and
>cinematography. I felt that it would be best to concentrate on
>something that wasn't as open to speculation or conceptual
>theory. I thought it would be something that people could relate
>to and understand.

>I'm not sure I've succeded.

>Here's an example:

>While many people today seem to use the term "film" and "video"
>interchangably, they are two totally different mediums; one
>being totally electronic using tape and the other being chemical
>based using a light sensitive film emulsion that requires
>processing.

>Now, to some, this may seem obvious. But the fact that the terms
>are commonly used in substitution for each other proves how
>un-obvious it really is to many participating in this listing.
>Or perhaps it shows how unfocused many are in their thought
>processes. This is not a slam against the average writer. After
>all, how many times have we seen a news person on TV say, "While
>we were filming this segment..." when they really meant, "While
>we were shooting video of this segment." It's starting to creep
>into the lexicon.

>Why is this important?

>Because, those seeking "proof" or "direct evidence" may have it
>staring them in the face and not even realize it unless they
>stop being emotional about it and use common sense to guide
>their beliefs and interpretation of the available data. For
>instance, if someone said they had the original videotape of the
>Lincoln assassination, no one would buy into that for obvious
>reasons. There would be no discussions about the accuracy of the
>costumes or the actors or the props seen in the video because
>there was no such thing as video when he was assassinated and
>everyone knows it.

>Likewise, it is a foolish waste of time to discuss, at length,
>the accuracy of the Soviet costumes, props, vehicles, etc when
>there was no such thing as the 16mm color negative that captured
>the image being discussed. 16mm color negative did not exist at
>the time the Soviet film was supposedly produced. In similar
>fashion, the results of the Roswell film do not match the
>methods, equipment and conditions that the cameraman insists
>existed, no matter how you look at it.

>Do I believe in UFOs or that Roswell is a true incident? My gut
>reaction is yes. But, at best, this only my opinion and is
>subject to change the more informed I am. There are many areas
>of expertise that I do not have training in. I live and breath
>for the opportunity to discuss REAL evidence, either pro or con,
>that would either support or correct my opinion. Zealots
>chanting that something is true or false, "just because" are
>hardly speeding the plow for their beliefs.

>I have no fear of the truth.

>But those that do would be doing us all favor by keeping their
>heavily biased slams to themselves and spend more time looking
>for factual information to talk about.

>Later,

>Roger Evans

I am relatively new also. I've only been around for a month or
so. At first I felt similarly over the constant bickering. As a
matter of fact, I am old enough to remember the 'Bickersons'.
That was an old radio show in the forties. Some of us remember
amplitude modulation, but not many. It's a curse.

If you are waiting for a "BUT!" then wait no longer. UFO's and
related issues elicit a strong emotional response. It appears to
be a knee jerk response. I am sure you agree.

When emotion comes into conflict with reason, guess who wins?

In addition and as if this were not enough, a lot of folks out
there make their living off this emotional issue. Books, TV and
radio (yup, still do radio) and other means by which money can
be modulated by notoriety and exposure. And to insure and
protect this form of living making, the result is the constant,

"You did not!"
"DID too!"
"Did not."
"DID!"
"NOT!"

But if you sift thru the BS and get into the beef (where's the
beef? It's in there somewhere, trust me.) you can get some good
G2 and a good education on the subjects of UFO's, psychology and
a little philosophy thrown in for good measure.

This is the nature of the beast. The human beast. We're the guys
who like to mix it up, even if there was no reason to mix it up!
But when there is, and the reason is $$BUCK$$ then get the hell
out of the way or join in.

I read every post. And every once in a while I gotta take my pen
and paper, as it were, and let some sumb-tch get it right
between the thighs. Can't help it. As a matter of fact, think
about this, isn't that just what you did?

Enjoy, learn and get ticked off. It's good for the arteries.

And remember what Confuscious said, "Wet bird never fry at
night."

Jim Mortellaro






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              Re: Rudiak On Roswell' - Lorenzo Kimball Responds

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:24:23 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:41:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Rudiak On Roswell' - Lorenzo Kimball Responds


David,

I sent Kent Kimball the following post by you. In its entirety,
unedited. Don't be so paranoid -- if you can help it.

>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:59:39 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al

Are you still suggesting that bodies were involved at one or
more crash sites and that the flight line was put on alert but
not the hospital? That a cook and a pilot were pressed into
recovery duties, an ambulance was sent out, but the hospital
wasn't put on standy notice at the very least. That the camp
cook -- I don't care how good a shot he was -- had a need to
know but that the third ranking medical officer didn't? Nope,
nothing inconsistent there.

Dennis







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                 Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 08:50:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:15:56 -0400
Subject: Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings
>Date: Sun, 27 Sep 98 11:38:25 PDT

>No, CAIJA, you're the WASTE OF TIME! As an old employer of mine
>used to say when looking at a worthless manuscript, "There's not
>a fact in a carload here." I do see, however, an astonishing
>range of ad hominems, sleazy innuendos, and slurs in your
>posting.

Actually it's worse than that, as you indicated earlier, Jerry.

Korff made personal attacks on Rudiak -- while pretending that
he didn't, pretending that it was other people making the
accusations, and that he himself was too responsible to do any
such thing. Meanwhile, of course, he made double sure we knew
the accusations existed.

Nauseating. It's an old sleazy-politician ploy.

I recently read a psychological journal, Psychological Inquiry,
which tackles a single subject in each issue. Someone writes a
"target" article, and then the rest of the world takes potshots.
The issue I read was about abductions, and I was amused to see
psychologists behaving a little like ufologists, scoffing at
each others' views as if their colleagues were writing childish
nonsense. (These disagreements, by the way, had nothing to do
with taking sides on abductions. They'd be concerned with more
mundane issues, like methodology.)

Anyone curious can read more about this in (blatant plug) my
upcoming essay "The Abduction Conundrum," in the next issue of
Dennis Stacy's very fine "The Anomalist"

My point, however, is that the psychologists never stooped to
personal attacks. Nor would you ever see any respectable
academics descending that far, no matter how sharp and sarcastic
their attacks on each other get. . Jerry and I are familar with
the way scholars and scientists slam each other. We see that in
the letters column in every issue of the New York Review of
Books. But Korff, along with Robert Todd, descends to a level no
mainstream publication would permit..

Korff's message about Rudiak and Todd's last explosion are the
saddest things I've ever seen on this list. Both gentlemen make
scathing complaints about the state of ufology -- while
remaining childishly unaware that their own attacks are part of
the problem, and that such things would never be tolerated in
any established field.

Greg Sandow








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                             Re: MIB Abduction?

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 98 11:44:06 PDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 17:32:01 -0400
Subject: Re: MIB Abduction?


>From: Robert Earle <Robert_Earle/UT/ASP@autolivasp.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:34:43 -0600
>Subject: MIB abductions?

>I wanted to ask the list if they have ever heard of abduction
>or contact encounters involving MIB type entities?

>I have been talking to the wife of a person at my work, she has
>told him of several encounters since childhood where she was
>"paralyzed in her bed" and couldn't move or scream. The "man" is
>darkly dressed in an aniquated tuxedo type outfit. Her first
>real memories of him are around the age of seven years old.

>She says he once "allowed" her to scream, and then immediately
>raised a finger and shook it and his head as if to say "no, no,
>no" She ran to her parent's bedroom, frightened, and they sent
>her back to bed passing it off as a boogie man type story. Her
>room was downstairs from her parent's, when she started to head
>back down the stairs, he was at the bottom of them, still
>shaking his head and finger silently at her. She rarely talks to
>her husband about these incidents, but has told him they've
>continued, and been as recent as a few weeks ago.

>The things that seem to make this story tangible to me are this:

>She does not associate it with any kind of known or publicized
>activity, even though many of her experiences/feelings match
>what I've seen documented of abductees. And the description of
>the entity itself, it's mannerisms, antiquated dress,
>threatening/intimidatiing effect, match the descriptions I've
>read of MIB encounters.

>The only difference is, what I've usually read of MIB encounters
>occur after a person has had a sighting or encounter of other
>alien life forms or UFOs. Her's seem strictly to involve this
>entity. Has anyone ever read or heard of MIB or similar entities
>being the main contact?

>If anyone has any related stories, suggestions, comments or
>ideas, please respond to this message.

>Robert ... Here was a tree...
>http://www.geocities.com/area51/dunes/7326


Robert and list,

This sounds in most particulars like a classic "Old Hag"
sleep-paralysis/hallucination experience.  I urge interested
persons to read David J. Hufford's classic work on the
subject, The Terror That Comes in the Night (University of
Pennsylvania Press, 1982).

Hufford, I should add, is commendably open-minded about
anomalous experiences and articulately critical of reductionist
attempts to explain them (or explain them away).  Still, he
provides a useful perspective, telling us what is understood and
what is not understood about experiences like the one described
here.

Jerry Clark






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 29

                            Re: KGB Crashed Disc

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:37:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 17:27:53 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Crashed Disc


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Crashed Disc
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:02:44 PDT

>Steve,

>I never said that the 'craft' was dead flat, I did, however, say
>that the rear section that is just visible between people
>appears 'too square'. That is 'box-like' in comparison with the
>very aerodynamic front that is visible hence my thinking that
>its some form of bracing. Have you had a look at this image yet?

Yes, I've looked at the image in question and notice the same
thing that you do. However, it may be matched by another similar
feature on the other side, giving it some balance. Since we
can't really see the entire "craft" it's all speculation based
in part on beliefs. If it is part of a traditional "lifting
body" craft, it would tend to fly in a single direction, rather
than spin, but this is all specualtion.


>Also, the simulation was based on what? Where were the photos of
>the the primary and secondary impact sites (they may have been
>shown in the tv show but they're not on this web site yet)?
>Where was the photo of earth gouges as it slammed into the tree,
>and for that matter, the damage to the tree itself. Why do the
>photos of the 'large piece' not show any rim dents on the
>'craft' that was flimsy enough to break up on impact - it
>appears to be wholly (and unbelievably) undamaged in that
>regard.

From your description it sounds like you haven't seen the show,
but even that wouldn't answer the questions you raise. The
impression that I was left with indicated that the simulation
was based on information obtained from the KGB's files, but
those files were actually presented. The simulation (which is
available in small format on the web site) indicates that there
would be gouges left in the earth, but there was no film of that
area shown on the program. There is indication of the device
slamming into the ground, which would be filled with roots so
near to a forest. The tress showed some areas where the bark had
been stripped from them when the craft hit. From what I can tell
in the simulation that was shown on the program, the craft was
not broken in two; but as someone else has noted, the announcer
talked about the it being broken into two pieces with the large
piece coming to rest against the trees. This isn't what the
simulation shows entirely, but that may be a fault of the
simulation. Again, speculation. As far as demts are concerned,
your guess is a good as mine. In the film you see one soldier
carrying a "chunk" of the craft and it appears to be quite
heavy. A while later you see two soldiers carring a piece about
five times that size and they don't seem to be straining at all.
Of course, all the pieces look like white styrofoam.

>Such photos are essential to at least help researchers guage the
>amount of energy expended in the smash. And the primary impact
>zone can help calculate the angle of impact.

>It is very convenient that the view from the back side has been
>>left out, but the validity of this entire scenerio rests on the
>>ability to independantly test the film. As it is, this is only
>>an interesting bit of film.

>>Steve

>I disagree - the validity depends on the new Russia that let
>outsiders view their files also letting them see the 'remains'
>proper. If there are as many corrupt scientists, bureaucrats and
>politicians in the new Russia as we are led to believe (such as
>with reports of them selling nuclear weaponds componentry, etc.,
>illegally) then what is a piece of genuine space junk to some
>comrade who needs to make a buck (or rouble) in desperate
>economic times?

You won't get an argument from me on this point. There have been
several prominent researchers who have visited the former Soviet
Union and attempted to get to all the information on UFOs that
is held by the KGB, and none have come back with the story of
this particular crash. It may be that some of the information
was held back by some who hope to profit from it, and that may
well be the basis of this information (allegedly) getting out.

Whoever created this, if it is indeed a hoax, did their homework
and got a number of things right (at least on first
examination). As Friedman has stated, this film deserves a
better look but that type of analysis is time consuming and not
cheap. Since the alleged film was shown on the program (although
I don't know why they showed 35mm film containers and 16mm
film), I think the chances of getting some of that film for
testing and evaluation is more likely than trying to get someone
to come up with a piece of the craft. But that would certainly
suffice in helping to move the discussion forward.

As long as this type of information is being held by those in
the entertainment industry, without allowing independant
scientific examination, we will have a difficult time trying to
apply a rational evaluation of its validity.

Now, who has an address for the production company that sold
this program to TNT?

Steve







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               Re: DISPATCH # 104 -- the weekly newsletter of

From: ParaScope@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:51:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 17:34:21 -0400
Subject: Re: DISPATCH # 104 -- the weekly newsletter of

S O M E T H I N G   S T R A N G E   I S   H A P P E N I N G

10/29/98

Quotes of the Week

"Yes, the president should resign. He has lied to the American people, time
and time again, and betrayed their trust. He is no longer an effective leader.
Since he has admitted guilt, there is no reason to put the American people
through an impeachment. He will serve absolutely no purpose in finishing out
his term, the only possible solution is for the president to save some dignity
and resign."

 -- Arkansas congressional candidate Bill Clinton, 1974 on President Nixon



 "Public media should not contain explicit or implied descriptions of sex
acts.  Our society should be purged of the perverts who provide the media with
pornographic material while pretending it has some redeeming social value
under the public's 'right to know.'"

 -- Kenneth Starr, 1987, "Sixty Minutes" interview with Diane Sawyer

-----------------------

Rant of the Week: �The Spearm and Halfbreads Chronicals�

Every week we pick the wackiest, scariest, nastiest or funniest rant from the
hundreds of letters received by us here at ParaScope headquarters, and present
it to you as our Rant of the Week. This week, �Astrid� issues a dire warning
against the dangers of casual self-fulfillment while at the same time
explaining the appearance of ostensible "grey aliens." Enjoy.

"Since the ancient days of Onan there has persisted amongst country folk a
taboo against spilling ones seed in the vicinity of still water, especially in
high summer. Like all superstitions, this home-spun wisdom is well grounded in
fact. For it is the case that under certain conditions sperm may survive in
warm shallow ponds long enough for them to fuse with frog-spawn giving rise to
curious hybrid creatures that are both man and amp hibian (with the human
genome tending to be the dominant partner). Depending on the species of frog
concerned, and the mettle of the shedder, the resulting offspring may grow to
three or four feet in height. They tend to be smooth of skin and pale grey
with a greeni sh tinge. Their eyes are dark and bulbous lenses and their limbs
gangly. They have small nostrils upon their flat faces; their mouths are
thinly lipped.

"Further, being but a half and half creature, the seed-spawn is infertile and
unable to reproduce within its own rare species. There is much evidence to
indicate that these desperate beings stalk abro ad, by dead of night, to mate
with humans in a vain attempt to perpetuate their foul bloodline. Terrified
sleepers have awoken to find the leering face of one such daemon-child peering
from a chest-crouched perching point, grimly fumbling at their nether regions.
The incubus, the succubus, a night terror as old as the human race itself!

"And here we have the true genesis of the fairytales of imps, elves, goblins
and leprechauns. Their magickal ways we ascribe to the subtle poison or
narcotic exuded from their skins which may induce w aking dreams or
narcoleptic trances in those humans they touch. Of course the March of
Progress into the countryside during the twentieth century did much to choke
of the supply of generative fluid upon which these loathsome beings depend.
The flushing loo and the  proto-toilet duck all but wiped out the seminal-
homunculus until the 1970's when they began to return with a vengeance.

"Now no longer confined to backward rural areas, in th e fin de siecle mindset
of urban consciousness, the faery king becomes the Grey, the Alien Abductor.
We have traced the the source of this new infestation to the nutrient soup
which now pollutes the sewers of every major city in the 'western' world.
There are worse things than crocodiles beneath us.

"Already synthetic oestrogens in household chemicals are causing fish to
mutate and feminise and, although, as a result, sperm counts continue to
decline amongst healthy males, it still only takes a drop... And the rise in
'safer sex' practices means more free-floating DNA under the street.
Gentlemen! In the name of sanity and sanitation I beseech you! If ever your
thoughts should stray towards auto-erotic stimulation, imagining your salty
palms are someone else's, stay your hand! Beware, lest your bastard offspring
come crawling up the drains to unjuice you!"

------

All rants are printed �as is,� with spelling and grammar goofs left
uncorrected. Some rants may be edited for brevity or clarity, to the extent
such a thing is possible. If you�ve got a rant you�d like to share, send it to
pscplady@aol.com with �possible rant� in the subject line of your letter.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Coming Up This Week!

Catch a number of great stories this week on the ParaScope web and AOL sites,
including daily updates to our Conspiracy Newsline and Daily Dose features.
Among the articles you'll want to check out:


"War of the Black Heavens":
The Radio Weapons of the Cold War

During decades of U.S.-Soviet conflict, the CIA and other government agencies
fought secret propaganda wars with the enemy. International radio was a key
weapon in this contest of ideas, and now that the Cold War is over, the story
of Western broadcasting to undermine the Soviets can finally be told. This
week Dossier reviews "War of the Black Heavens," a recently published book by
Michael Nelson that lifts the veil on decades of covert radio operations. Find
out how long-range transmitters did the job that neither stern diplomacy nor
military threats could do.

---------------

The Paper Trail: Declassification Round-up

Another fact-packed review of the latest secret document releases is online
now. The new edition of the Paper Trail is full of revelations on the hidden
history of the Cold War. Highlights include: an encouraging report from the
government's classification appeals panel, the first documentation of LBJ's
secret nuclear strike policy, and a new report on the CIA's efforts to censor
the memoirs of its former spies.

---------------

How Psychic Sleuths Waste Police Resources

Uncritical news reports and pseudocumentaries continue to tout the alleged
successes of "psychics" who supposedly assist law enforcement agencies in
solving crimes or locating missing persons. Exaggerated claims
notwithstanding, most police departments have not used psychics -- and of
those who have, few have done so officially or claim significant success for
them. In a report from Skeptical Inquirer Electronic Digest, Joe Nickell
outlines 20 "psychic detective" case studies in which the psychics are not
merely ineffectual, but actually harm investigations by misdirecting police
efforts.

---------------

The (in)Famous Travis Walton Case

One of the most famous alien abductee stories in UFOlogy lore is the case of
one Travis Walton. Some say Walton really was kidnapped by extraterrestrials,
but skeptics assert that the whole thing was a hoax, perpetrated for financial
gain. Did On closer examination, does the hoax theory make sense? Did Travis
and his kin make the whole thing up? Did Duane Walton hang inflatable rafts
strung with lights in the trees to fool eyewitnesses? Magonia's John Harney
walks us through the Travis Walton case with a close eye on the murky details.

---------------

Conspiracy Newsline

Check out the Newsline to get 100% of you recommended daily allowance of
cognitive dissidence. Ramsey Clark speaks out against the Sudan bombing;
Princess Di bodyguard files lawsuit against hotel, limousine company; House of
Representatives narrowly defeats bill to defund the School of the Americas
(a.k.a. the "School of Assassins"); lots more news.

---------------

UFO Roundup

Get the latest UFOlogy news and sighting reports, courtesy of Joseph Trainor's
UFO Roundup! "Bigfoot" photographed in Florida; ex-defense chief claims RAF
Feltwell is Britain's Area 51; UFOs reported in Ohio, northern Georgia,
eastern France, Italy and South Africa; lots more news.

...All this, and much, much more!


-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Jane, Stop This Crazy Thing!

Thought you were tough enough to handle the Dispatch and now you realize
you're not? Starting to think you've made a wrong turn off the info highway?
Well, we're only going to go over this once, so listen up!

To unsubscribe yourself from Dispatch:

1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com

2) In the body of your mail, type: unsubscribe dispatch

That's all there is to it!

Likewise, to subscribe:

1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com

2) In the body of your mail, type: subscribe dispatch

----------------------------------------

ParaScope
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Studio City, CA 91604

America Online -- keyword: parascope
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info@parascope.com






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Sep > Sep 30

                 Re: Screening and Discussion w/Budd Hopkins

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 98 15:47:55 PDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:32:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Screening and Discussion w/Budd Hopkins


>Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:40:41 -0500
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Screening and Discussion w/Budd Hopkins

>Look for further news about our planned November 14th

>"New York UFO/Abduction Conference"

>Featured Speakers will be:

>Budd Hopkins, Author/Researcher ("Witnessed; The True
>Story of the Brooklyn Bridge Abduction")

>Dr.David Jacobs, Author/Researcher ("The Threat: The
>Secret Agenda")

>Jerome Clarke, Author/Researcher ("UFO Encyclopedia")

Hey, John,

I thought I was gonna speak at this thing.  Who's this
"Clarke" guy, anyway?  Never heard of him, but if he's
claiming to have written The UFO Encyclopedia, I'll sic
my attorney after the SOB!

Cheers,

Jerome Clark, Author/Researcher ("UFO Encyclopedia")








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   Sep > Sep 30

                           Re: Snipers & Shooters

From: jerry anderson <ufomek@netcomuk.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:42:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:30:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Snipers & Shooters


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:11:05 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Can't we all just get along?

>Hello all,

>I'm rather new to the list, having only participated for a
>little over a week or so....

>Boy, what a week!

>I had heard much about the listing from another source and
>thought I might try wading into the torrent of observations and
>technical data to see if I might learn something or, perhaps,
>offer my own insight into the subject of UFOs. I'm hardly
>keeping a direct count but the vast majority of listings seem to
>have very little, if nothing, to do with discussions about real
>evidence or technical data.

<snip>

Dear Roger,

So you've noticed all the slanging? So have I. That makes two of
us. You are quite right, and I agree whole-heartedly with your
comments. We are all wanting an answer on this subject. Surely
it's not too much to ask that we should work together!

I'm gonna give it another month, and if I still keep reading
what is sometimes no more than 'Hate Mail', I'm packing the
Updates in. Which is a shame, as quite often there is decent
unbiased information posted. Let's pull together. Is it too much
trouble to listen to other peoples theories and thoughts on the
UFO subject. Why can't we all just GROW UP? Jerry Anderson
UFOMEK

Working for a united UFO community






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Sep > Sep 30

                 Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings

From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 18:32:02 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:42:40 -0400
Subject: Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings
>Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 08:50:24 -0400

>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: David Rudiak's Pro-ET Roswell Postings
>Date: Sun, 27 Sep 98 11:38:25 PDT

<snip>

>Korff's message about Rudiak and Todd's last explosion are the
>saddest things I've ever seen on this list. Both gentlemen make
>scathing complaints about the state of ufology -- while
>remaining childishly unaware that their own attacks are part of
>the problem, and that such things would never be tolerated in
>any established field.

>Greg Sandow


I can't thank Greg Sandow enough for opening my eyes to what an
obstacle I've been for the last twenty-six years to the UFO
field's gaining the level of "respectability" it so richly
deserves.  Gee, if I'd only known!

By all means, stick with the Robert O. Deans, the Kevin Randles,
the Stanton Friedmans, the David Rudiaks, the Don Schmitts, the
Phillip Corsos, the Don Berliners, the Jerome Clucks, the Mark
Rodeghiers, the Michael Swords', the Mark Cashmans, the Steven
Greers, the Clifford Stones, and let's not forget the oh-so
pious Greg Sandows, and all the other ufological elite who have
made the UFO field what it is today.

In ufology, as in politics, you get the leaders you deserve. And
for my money, you're more than welcome to every last one of
them.  Enjoy!

Remove me from the list, please.  Obviously, I'm not worthy.

[Made so - after the posting of this message to the List -
 perhaps now that he's left the building, some subscribers
 can key their _real_ feelings regarding Bob Todd! --ebk]

Robert Todd
Waterboy
Debunker
Liar
Illegal Procurer of Government Personnel Files
Defamer of Righteous Roswell Whistleblowers
Roadblock to the UFO Field's "Respectability"
General Blight on the Face of Ufology -- if not
All of Humanity







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                               Re: Voreppe UFO

From: Bourdais Gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 23:51:53 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:35:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Voreppe UFO


>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:40:30 -0400
>From: Joachim Koch <JKoch1@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Voreppe UFO
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>
>>From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
>>Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:19:06 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 37

>>SPHERICAL UFO HOVERS
>>OVER FRENCH BACKYARD

>>Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:07:11 +0200
>>From: Bourdais Gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
>>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Voreppe

>>To all List members :

>>I have more informations on the case of Voreppe which
>>confirm, apparently, that it was a balloon.

>>What happened is a
>>family of Voreppe informed the police that their son had
>>dropped a balloon which was fairly large (nearly one meter)
>>and in the  shape of a ladybug.

>How does this all fit together? A family who is not able to
>identify his own son's "ladybug"-balloon? And the sound? Suddenly
>there was none? And the "protuberances"? Maybe the familiy is
>only afraid of ridicule?


The Voreppe case is a good exemple of bad information and
misunderstandings of all kinds. Let's try to sort them briefly.
The balloon was not dropped by the family who shot the video. It
was another family which informed the police, at the end of the
week, that their son had dropped that peculiar balloon, lather
large (1 m) and in the shape of a ladybug, which might explain
the sighting. And this was, in effect, the explanation given on
September 13.

After learning that, my first reaction was very skeptical. I
called Jean-Jacques Velasco at CNES/SEPRA, the engineer who made
the investigation. When he explained what happened to me, I was
still skeptical. But then I got another information, from
another source, who wants to remain confidential for the moment,
but whom I trust. He told me he had seen the video, with some
"important people", and they had noticed a string hanging under
the left side of the object, which was slowly drifting away in
the air. If this were a UFO, it would be a sensational premiere
: a saucer with a string ! Also, the voice of the wife of the
main witness could be heard off, saying "It looks like a ladybug
!".

Of course, it does not fits with some details and descriptions
published in the press. I have a collection of them, from
several newspapers, "Le Dauphin=E9 lib=E9r=E9", "La d=E9p=EAche du midi",
"Le Progr=E8s de Lyon" : the desceptions are changing from one
paper to another, from one day to another : which is the good
one ??

It is apparent now that, contrary to his usual approach, Velasco
has been a bit overexcited on this case, did not look hard
enough at the video, and made somewhat hasty declarations to the
press. It is equally regretable that he declines now to give a
copy of the video, but he may not have the permission of the
owner, who remains very silent now and is not reachable for
comment. Also, I managed to reach on the phone two neighbors, a
Mr Brun and Mrs Fortuno, who told me that they had seen nothing.

As for the leaves on the tree, samples were collected by the
gendarmes, but they were not burned.

One last thing about Voreppe : contrary to what is said in
UFO ROUNDUP of 27 September, I am not a spokesman for CNES !!
(Who said that ?)

And here is an instant proof of that. On another French case,
the recent observation of a luminous UFO near Le Havre, I don't
believe the explanation of Velasco, that the gendarmes and
police saw the planet Jupiter and its three satellites !

What I understand of all this is that Velasco must have been
told to cool down, and he is just doing that...

Gildas Bourdais








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   Sep > Sep 30

              Re: 'Rudiak On Roswell' - Lorenzo Kimball Respond

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 00:09:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:31:41 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Rudiak On Roswell' - Lorenzo Kimball Respond


>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:22:47 +0200
>From: Bourdais Gildas <gildas.bourdais@hol.fr>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: 'Rudiak On Roswell' - Lorenzo Kimball Responds

>>Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 16:54:55 -0500 (CDT)
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>>Subject: Evidence for Rudiak Et Al

>>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 16:56:41 +0100
>>From: Lorenzo K. Kimball <lorenzok@inconnect.com>
>>To: DRudiak@aol.com
>>CC: dstacy@texas.net, Michael Kimball <michaelw@inconnect.com

<snips>

>Subject: Re: Roswell 1947I have a brief comment here (brief
>because some people are getting tired of Roswell):

Gosh! Surely not!
--
J. Rimmer
The P.L.A. Driftwood Organisation is back on line.








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   Sep > Sep 30

                            Re: KGB Crashed Disc

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 18:52:10 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:24:05 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Crashed Disc


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Crashed Disc
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:07:32 PDT

>>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:43:07 +0100
>>From: "A.U.R.A." <aura@telekabel2.nl>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Crashed Disc

>>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Crashed Disc
>>>Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:34:18 PDT

>>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>>>Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:00:44 EDT
>>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>>Subject: Re: KGB Crashed Disk

>>><XL-snip>

>>>You don't think it at all 'convenient' that footage of the rear
>>>was not shown? C'mon , Jim, a little lateral thinking here,
>>>please. Go to the UFOKGB web site mentioned in the earlier post
>>>and have a close look at image 'front6.jpg' and call it up for a
>>>close look. You will see what appears to bracing behing the prop
>>>wreck.

>>Leanne,

>> Like you suggested I took a look at "front6.jpg" , I blew it up
>>in Photo shop...but...where do you see bracing? Maybe I'm
>>looking at the wrong spot or just lookin' over it the same way
>>I'm regularly lookin' over my keys ;-) Could you be a little
>>more specific, please?

>Andy & List,

>I have attached a jpeg of the right side of the photo image in
>question. Clealy visible is the 'box-like' effect directly
>behind the magazine of (Kalishnikov?) rifle.

>Note the 'box-like' structure is extremely square looking and
>has uniform colour as interpreted by my Coreldraw5 photo
>software indicative of no curvature at all.

>Note too, that if the line of 'box' is followed upwards it ends
>abruptly behind the guard's arm.

>Also, does anyone know whether the rifles are of the correct
>vintage?

>Regards,

>Leanne Martin
>Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia

Hi list:

The answer to the question regarding the AK's is YES.
I have a good deal of reference material on weaponry,
despite my being unable to hit anything as I admitted in
a prior posting.

I checked those references and the rifles, sights and
other accouterments appear to be correct vintage.

Also checked with an AF buddy who claims the patches are
as noted in the film, that is, correct vintage for winter uniform
outerwear.  He is an expert on Russian military.

But I cannot verify this component personally.

Jim Mortellaro






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                             Re: MIB Abduction?

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:29:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:26:31 -0400
Subject: Re: MIB Abduction?


>From: Robert Earle <Robert_Earle/UT/ASP@autolivasp.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:34:43 -0600
>Subject: MIB abductions?

>I wanted to ask the list if they have ever heard of abduction
>or contact encounters involving MIB type entities?

>I have been talking to the wife of a person at my work, she has
>told him of several encounters since childhood where she was
>"paralyzed in her bed" and couldn't move or scream. The "man" is
>darkly dressed in an aniquated tuxedo type outfit. Her first
>real memories of him are around the age of seven years old.

>She says he once "allowed" her to scream, and then immediately
>raised a finger and shook it and his head as if to say "no, no,
>no" She ran to her parent's bedroom, frightened, and they sent
>her back to bed passing it off as a boogie man type story. Her
>room was downstairs from her parent's, when she started to head
>back down the stairs, he was at the bottom of them, still
>shaking his head and finger silently at her. She rarely talks to
>her husband about these incidents, but has told him they've
>continued, and been as recent as a few weeks ago.

>The things that seem to make this story tangible to me are this:

>She does not associate it with any kind of known or publicized
>activity, even though many of her experiences/feelings match
>what I've seen documented of abductees. And the description of
>the entity itself, it's mannerisms, antiquated dress,
>threatening/intimidatiing effect, match the descriptions I've
>read of MIB encounters.

>The only difference is, what I've usually read of MIB encounters
>occur after a person has had a sighting or encounter of other
>alien life forms or UFO's. Her's seem strictly to involve this
>entity. Has anyone ever read or heard of MIB or similar entities
>being the main contact?

>If anyone has any related stories, suggestions, comments or
>ideas, please respond to this message.


Robert,

I'd suggest two lines of thought.

First, if we're to believe the leading abduction researchers,
people don't always remember details of their abductions
correctly. So abductees think they see five-foot owls blocking
the road at night while their driving, or think that the ghosts
of their parents have come into their bedrooms at night.

The woman you're talking about may have manufactured the picture
of a man in antique formal dress, to protect herself against
whatever the reality might have been. Someone else may have
better information than I do, but I don't remember hearing of an
MIB visit to someone's bedside in the middle of the night.
Normally they visit during waking hours, just as a normal human
being might. (In fact, if we believe Jenny Randles' recent book
on the MIB, they _are_ normal human beings -- military people
from a unit known for its outrageous stunts, who want to confuse
the UFO community.)

Second, what this woman reports might, conceivably, be an
episode of sleep paralysis. I lurk on a sleep paralysis mailing
list, and people there report many contacts with nocturnal
entities. Normally these entities are just featureless black
shapes, but all sorts of reports do occur. Naturally, the people
on the sleep paralysis list engage in intense discussion about
whether these entities are real or hallucinations. We can't rule
out the possibility that some or even all of their experiences
are abductions, which they don't remember properly. But we also
can't dismiss the possibility -- accepted as a certainty by some
who've studied sleep paralysis -- that some people hallucinate
entities at night.

Your friend, needless to say, needs all the support and sympathy
you can give her. If she wants to go further, she might consider
seeing a reputable abduction investigator.

Greg Sandow







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
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                             Re: MIB Abduction?

From: Ivo Westerlaken <cold@casema.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:14:29 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:35:45 -0400
Subject: Re: MIB Abduction?


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: MIB Abduction?
>Date: Tue, 29 Sep 98 11:44:06 PDT

>>From: Robert Earle <Robert_Earle/UT/ASP@autolivasp.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:34:43 -0600
>>Subject: MIB abductions?

>>I wanted to ask the list if they have ever heard of abduction
>>or contact encounters involving MIB type entities?

>>I have been talking to the wife of a person at my work, she has
>>told him of several encounters since childhood where she was
>>"paralyzed in her bed" and couldn't move or scream. The "man" is
>>darkly dressed in an aniquated tuxedo type outfit. Her first
>>real memories of him are around the age of seven years old.

<snip>

>>If anyone has any related stories, suggestions, comments or
>>ideas, please respond to this message.

>>Robert ... Here was a tree...
>>http://www.geocities.com/area51/dunes/7326

>Robert and list,

>This sounds in most particulars like a classic "Old Hag"
>sleep-paralysis/hallucination experience.  I urge interested
>persons to read David J. Hufford's classic work on the
>subject, The Terror That Comes in the Night (University of
>Pennsylvania Press, 1982).

>Hufford, I should add, is commendably open-minded about
>anomalous experiences and articulately critical of reductionist
>attempts to explain them (or explain them away).  Still, he
>provides a useful perspective, telling us what is understood and
>what is not understood about experiences like the one described
>here.

>Jerry Clark

Robert and list,

Jerry is right, the mannerism, dress, the
threatening/intimidating effect, are much more like the classic
'bedroom invader' (aka "Old Hag" - though a minority describe an
actual hag), than the MIB.

Next to Hufford's classic work I'd recommend Hilary Evans',
'Visions*Apparitions*Alien Visitors' (The Aquarian Press 1984),
which clearly shows the distinction between this type of entity
and the MIB.

Ivo Westerlaken.







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                           Re: Snipers & Shooters

From: Moderator UFO UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:44:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:44:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Snipers & Shooters




A Re-post.....

ebk
_____________________________________________________


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Sharolyn Stenger <stenger@spindle.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: New and Wondering
>Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:01:23 -0500

>>From: ujack@pop3.scrapcity.cnchost.com [Mark Medford]
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:05:39 +0000
>>Subject: New and Wondering

>>Dear Friends,

>>I'm new to this list and wondering about all of the negative posts.
>>Would someone be willing to give me a nutshell version of what the
>>raging battle is about? It seems, to my newbie eyes,  primarily
>>focused on a conflict of personalities. I'm sure the current fuss has
>>it's root in some specific question. Just curious....

>>Thanks,
>>Mark

>Dear Mark and Friends,

>Amen!  I have so often wondered the same thing.  One would think
>that a subscription list with the name, 'UFO Updates', would be
>exactly that - updated news of UFO sightings, activity, etc.

No. You might expect a list with the name 'UFO _News_ UpDates' to
be such. 'UpDates' allows for re-hashing, possible trashing,
peer-bashing and above all (as is quite apparent) forthright,
informed 'discussion' - all without bothersome, uninformed
'civilians' of the news.group type. All with a soupcon of
'personality manifestation'.

>And, to be fair, there IS some good information shared.  But you
>have to wade through a tremendous amount of spleen-venting to
>find it.

What UpDates _does_ do is to allow those of us who are: informed,
un-informed, fence-sitters, eager to learn, sharers, or quibblers,
a forum to either voice or merely read without too much 'noise'.

While there are those who take offence at the 'noise' that
sometimes rises to an annoying level, others will observe the
'loud-speakers' and either have their suspicions confirmed,
change their minds about those individuals or simply  Cuss/grin
and trash.

Let's continue with some further observations.....

There's a certain degree of difficulty in moderating a forum such
as this List. 99% of posts to this address actually make it to
your mailbox, almost all of it intact. Yes, some editing _is_
done - on occasion 'nasties' are removed. Less frequently, one is
missed and there ensues the reason for removing those 'nasties'.
I'm sure you're aware of what I'm referring to.

<snip>

My insistence that in order to participate in discussions here,
those with access to the Net should subscribe to the List,
brought forth more indignation. The rule from the outset  has
been just that - you don't subscribe, your stuff doesn't get
posted. Not because I'm being a hard-nosed bastard but to keep
this List on a relatively even keel.

The amount of crap that comes in this direction has to be seen
to be believed. Plus, just because someone _has_ subscribed
doesn't guarantee access to other subscriber's mailboxes.
Filtering of "I believes", 'phenomenal theories', breathless
observations, Channelers, blatant commercialism happens at
this end. Everyone has a trash can and having to read
everything is not a subscription-prerequisite. I've found
that 'filter' settings are an inordinately useful piece of
coding.

Failing that, a simple one word 'Subject' line to this
address - 'Un-Subscribe' will solve the problem if not the
mystery.


ebk






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                           Re: Snipers & Shooters

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 21:13:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:44:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Snipers & Shooters


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:11:05 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Can't we all just get along?

>sizeable snip>

>But those that do would be doing us all favor by keeping their
>heavily biased slams to themselves and spend more time looking
>for factual information to talk about..


Hi Roger,

I agree with you to the extent that people beat each other up
a lot in here, and that time could be spent more wisely. Kudos
to those that exercise the self control to remain outside the ring.

However, what you refer to as "heavily biased slams" often begin
innocently enough with the suggestion by one person that another
is mistaken in some area. That's how debates begin, and everyone
here has the right to question the information supplied by a researcher
or other interested party. That's the way it should be, of course. There
are times when someone is flat-out wrong and it needs to be made
known, especially to the person in error. Unfortunately this is where
ego steps in, and it has nothing to do with ufology.

I doubt much can be done about the scuffles and scraps on this list.
In spite of them, I have gleaned tons of information from it, and even
added a bit of my own. The only thing I can suggest to those wishing
to contribute constructively is to set an example by sticking to well
documented information, presented in a fashion that suggests the
other readers are free to do with it as they please.

If the arguments bother you, delete them!

And if you are attacked I doubt anyone will think less of you if
you decline to dignify it with a response. Most here are smart
enough to know where information ends and insults begin.

Greg








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                           Re: Snipers & Shooters

From: Nancy White <njw@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 21:24:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:49:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Snipers & Shooters


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:11:05 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Can't we all just get along?

>Hello all,

>I'm rather new to the list, having only participated for a
>little over a week or so....

>Boy, what a week!

>I had heard much about the listing from another source and
>thought I might try wading into the torrent of observations and
>technical data to see if I might learn something or, perhaps,
>offer my own insight into the subject of UFOs. I'm hardly
>keeping a direct count but the vast majority of listings seem to
>have very little, if nothing, to do with discussions about real
>evidence or technical data.

>Instead there seems to be an emphasis on "beating each other
>up".

>One person slams another. Then someone writes in to take revenge
>on the original slammer. Then, yet, someone ELSE writes in to
>slam THAT person. It seems to be an endless cyber-gang war with
>drive by cyber hits rattling all around us....


<snip>

I couldn't agree more. I have not read such incivility or
'heard' such anger and irrelevant nit-picking since I was at the
last confrontation between the religious right and pro-choice
groups.

I am an intellectual believer in EBE's but I have little
information on what may or may not have occurred here, on our
planet. I was hoping to get some information from this list but
have only heard, with some wonderful exceptions, bilious
diatribes.

Please, those of you who know something about this issue,
communicate the information that you have, and those of you who
are haters or have a personal vendetta against another person,
please take those issues into a personal conversation and not
subject the rest of the list to things that are meaningless to
us.


Regards,

Nancy White







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                             Re: KGB Files Show

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 21:41:39 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:51:27 -0400
Subject: Re: KGB Files Show


>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:17:19 -0400
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: KGB Files Show
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

<snip>

>Anyway, I am aware of a specific example of a Soviet "hoax" on
>the American people.

>In the winter or spring of 1969, I believe, while I was at
>American University at Washington, DC.,. an international "fair"
>or exposition was held. Many of the embassies most of which are
>within a few miles of American University) had displays. The
>Russian embassy was also there with a display related to Soviet
>achievements in space. Their largest exhibit was "their" moon
>lander. For those of you less than 40 years old, the '60's was
>the tme of the space race.... who could get to the moon first.
>After our astronauts orbited the moon in Dec\ 1968, while the
>Russians failed to achieve a comparable result, it became
>apparent who was going to get there first.

>So, as I was walking around looking at all the good stuff I
>spotted te Russian exhibit with it's "moon lander." It had a
>definitely recognizable appearance, despite the large letters
>USSR across its surface and other Soviet markings.

>Then it came to me: The Russians had made a model of the US moon
>lander (which was an distinctively ugly, ungodly looking
>device!) and had labelled it "Soviet Moon Lander."

<snip>

Maybe it was not an intentional "hoax" Bruce...

The British Interplanetary Society's magazine Spaceflight has
published many photos and sketches of previously secret Soviet
manned lunar spacecraft hardware. Included was the Soviet L-3
lunar lander which was even tested unmanned in Earth orbit. It
does resemble the American Lunar Excursion Module (LEM) or lunar
lander in some ways.

In the October 1998 issue of Popular Science, James Oberg has
written another excellent review article about some other space
hardware that is little known outside Russia. Oberg's article
also has a picture of the L-3 lunar lander as well as the L-1
lunar orbiter which was to carry the first cosmonauts around the
moon. An earlier unmanned version, the Zond spacecraft (Zond 5
or 6?) was sent around the Moon with passengers from Earth
(turtles if I recall correctly) before the first manned flight
(Apollo 8) to the Moon. If one accepts the statement that "pets
are people too", then one can argue that the Soviet Union did
beat the United States to the Moon by a few weeks in 1968.

I also recall seeing Russian pictures of what was said to be a
landed UFO that also closely resembled the American lunar
lander. The witnesses who approached this landed UFO landing are
said to have become ill or died shortly afterwards. Would you
recall which publication(s) these pictures can be found in?
Could this be evidence that some extraterrestrial spacecraft are
based on "alien" American technology? ;o)

Nick Balaskas









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                        Not 'Links' But People Facts

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 19:06:23 PDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:54:31 -0400
Subject: Not 'Links' But People Facts

>From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@foto.infi.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Exchanging links
>Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 23:13:00 -0400

>We are seeking exchanging links with other good UFO related
>websites. If interested email me at swduncan@foto.infi.net

>Thanks.
>Stefan Duncan
>XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
>Stefan Duncan
>Director of XPI
>Editor of AUFON
>5396 Sumac Circle
>Fayetteville, N.C. 28304
>swduncan@foto.infi.net
>http://www.aufon.com
>ICQ 11878618
>(910-425-2976)

Stefan & List,

A link exchange would be great but for a newbie to this area I would
really appreciate a people list so as to to appreciate more the goings
on of the arguments bouncing around this list.

For example:

Fred Bloggs: name & address

Fred's email and webpage

Fred's direct interest in list
     (e.g. just eaves-dropping, likes new siting reports)

Fred's area of expertise in list contributions
     (e.g. film analysis, abduction experiencer)

Fred's affilliations that may be of a conflict of interest with list.
     (e.g. collects tid-bits for publishing for profit - may have a )
     (vested interest in sensationalizing events for monetary gain. )

Fred's employment history of concern to the list
     (e.g. airforce pilot, film technician, secret service agent)

Pertinent comments (non-slandering and non-defamatory) by other list
members who have dealt with Fred.

Agreed reliability rating by the list members
     ( say from  -5 for a known hoaxer or disnformant through to )
     (            0 for an unknown quantity in this category to  )
     (           +5 for utterly reliable informant/contributor   )
     (              or specialist in the field                   )

Other relevant categories

I'll show you mine if you show me your's. Now there's a can of worms
for you . . .  :-)

Regards,

Leanne Martin
Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia