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   Dec

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Dec 1998

  Dec 1:

   Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House - Greg Sandow [9]
   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images - Gary Alevy [50]
   Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth - Bob Shell [13]
   Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images - Bob Shell [16]
   Re: When Seti Gets An ET Signal! - Stan Friedman [9]
   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images - Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug [11]
   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images - Stan Friedman [20]
   Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images - James Bond Johnson [5]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Jerome Clark [32]
   Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House - Jerome Clark [24]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Jerome Clark [12]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 48 - Joseph Trainor [455]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - John [17]
   Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House - Serge Salvaille [67]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - John Rimmer [25]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - John Rimmer [8]
   Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia - Larry Hatch [20]
   Re: When SETI Gets An ET Signal! - Gary Alevy [10]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - John Rimmer [30]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Greg Sandow [130]
   Re: When SETI Gets An ET Signal! - Michael Christol [22]
   More 1950s UFO History: The Role Of Dr. James - Gary [85]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 48 - Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. [13]
   Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth - Jim Mortellaro [16]
   Re: Mars MARCI EDL Movie - Michael Christol [89]
   Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia - Michael Hodges [13]
   Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia - Larry Hatch [16]
   Re: When SETI Gets An ET Signal! - Greg St. Pierre [45]
   Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth - Greg Sandow [14]
   Re: Censorship, UASR And Peter Gersten - "Steven W. Kaeser" [13]
   A Lovely Case Of Sleep Paralysis? [was: Re: - Greg Sandow [13]
   Re: Censorship, UASR And Peter Gersten - Skye Turell [11]
   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images - Bob Shell [26]
   The Roswell Declaration - Joachim Koch [107]
   Reporter Says "Truth About Ufos Is Out There" - Ignatius Graffeo [106]
   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images - Stan Friedman [4]
   Re: Censorship, UASR And Peter Gersten - Roger Evans [27]
   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images - Steven Kaeser [4]
   Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images - Stan Friedman [5]
   Sighting - Montreal, Quebec - Jenifer Migneault [17]
   Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House - Roger Evans [39]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Jerome Clark [100]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Jerome Clark [11]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Greg Sandow [57]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Greg Sandow [59]
   Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth - Rebecca [7]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Jerome Clark [22]
   Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House - Roger Evans [43]
   Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald - Jerome Clark [119]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Peter Brookesmith - Mendoza
   [11]
   Re: The Challenge - Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate [102]

  Dec 2:

   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - John Rimmer [5]
   {97} part 1 - United Kingdom UFO Network - Lloyd Bayliss [330]
   {97} part 4 - United Kingdom UFO Network - Lloyd Bayliss [418]
   Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald - bruce maccabee [18]
   Blather: Non-temperance Zone - Daev Walsh - Blather [199]
   Keeping the Legacy of a Professor Alive - Ed Stewart [52]
   Even in Death, Sagan's Influence Cosmic - Ed Stewart [241]
   Re: Censorship, UASR And Peter Gersten - Ted Viens [16]
   Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House - Jan Aldrich [12]
   Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth - Michael Christol [31]
   Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed.... - Michael Christol [43]
   Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images - Gary Alevy [70]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Jim Mortellaro [23]
   Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience [was: SETI - David Rudiak [224]
   CAUS - The 'Last-Post' - Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto [317]
   Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth - Jim Mortellaro [17]
   Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House - Jim Mortellaro [17]
   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images - Neil Morris [43]
   Re: The Roswell Declaration - Stan Friedman [31]
   Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House - Stan Friedman [10]
   Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House - Stan Friedman [14]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - John Rimmer [88]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - John Rimmer [31]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Jerome Clark [5]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Jerome Clark [29]
   C-E: McCampbell's 'UFOLOGY II' on floppy disc - Francis Ridge [60]
   Re: The Roswell Declaration - Alfred Lehmberg [43]
   Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House - Jerome Clark [29]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Greg Sandow [32]
   Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed.... - Greg Sandow [22]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - John [6]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Bob Shell [2]
   Re: GEPAN - Philip Mantle [4]
   Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House - Serge Salvaille [50]
   Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House - Serge Salvaille [27]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Jerome Clark [16]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Jerome Clark [68]
   HOT GOSSIP UK - DECEMBER - Georgina Bruni [123]

  Dec 3:

   Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald - Gary Alevy [22]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Bill Weber [15]
   Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec - Susan Baldwin [12]
   DISPATCH # 111 -- the weekly newsletter of - ParaScope@AOL.COM [73]
   Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec - Michael Christol [21]
   Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald - Gary Alevy [60]
   Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed.... - Michael Christol [27]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Jim Mortellaro [7]
   Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House - Roger Evans [42]
   Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia - Sharon Kardol [30]
   Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House - Roger Evans [36]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Bill Weber [11]
   New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Ignatius Graffeo [89]
   Re: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience - Bruce Maccabee [18]
   Re: 'Phone Noise' - Bruce Maccabee [17]
   Re: The Challenge - Greg Sandow [77]
   Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House - Jim Mortellaro [23]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Stephen MILES Lewis [109]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 48 - Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug [7]
   Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald - Jerome Clark [55]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Terry Blanton [34]
   Re: The Challenge - Brian Straight [30]
   Re: 'Phone Noise' - Steven Kaeser [7]
   Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc - Moderator, UFO UpDates [249]
   Re: 'Phone Noise' - Diane Lovett [14]
   The Missing Data From Slovenia - John Hayes [57]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Greg Sandow [29]
   Re: http://www.thewordistruth.org - Terry Blanton [29]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Greg Sandow [7]
   Abductee Not Paralyzed.... - Tim Brigham [18]
   Re: The Challenge - Tim Brigham [69]
   Re: The Challenge - John [79]
   Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia - Larry Hatch [5]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - John Rimmer [30]
   Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Brian Cuthbertson [18]
   Re: An Historic Report On Life In Space - Sean Jones [48]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Peter Brookesmith - Mendoza
   [24]
   Re: 'Phone Noise' - Roger Evans [18]
   Re: http://www.thewordistruth.org - Terry Blanton [51]
   Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc - Stan Friedman [4]
   -=[For The Record]=- C-E: Roswell Archaeologists - Francis Ridge [10]
   Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed.... - Michael Christol [21]
   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images - Scott Krause [6]

  Dec 4:

   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Roger Evans [38]
   Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Roger Evans [12]
   Re: The Challenge - Greg Sandow [12]
   Re: The Challenge - Tim Brigham [33]
   Re: 'Phone Noise' - Donald Ledger [30]
   Re: 'Phone Noise' - Tim Brigham [11]
   Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald - Ted Viens [16]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Greg Sandow [21]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Serge Salvaille [22]
   Re: 'Phone Noise' - Leanne Martin [7]
   Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc - Jakes Louw [6]
   Re: -=[For The Record]=- C-E: Roswell - Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug [15]
   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images - Bob Shell [11]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Bob Shell [9]
   Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth - Christophe Meessen
   [50]
   Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth - Christophe Meessen
   [5]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Greg Sandow [71]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Terry Blanton [9]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Jerome Clark [69]
   Re: 'Phone Noise' - Diane Lovett [40]
   Re: The Challenge - Diane Lovett [15]

  Dec 5:

   Re: 'Phone Noise' - Diane Lovett [17]
   Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc - Jan Aldrich [28]
   Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec - Gilles Milot [6]
   Re: The 'Roswell Memo' Images - James Bond Johnson [33]
   Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc - Terry Blanton [6]
   Re: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience - David Rudiak [137]
   Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Bob Shell [4]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Steven Kaeser [14]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - John Rimmer [15]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - John Rimmer [15]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - John Rimmer [11]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - John Rimmer [35]
   Re: The 'Roswell Memo' Images - Neil Morris [11]
   Re: - Serge Salvaille [13]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - David RudiakDRudiak@aol.com
   [100]
   Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Serge Salvaille [12]
   Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec - Jenifer Migneault [34]
   Re: The Challenge - Justin Naughton<emperor@picknowl.com.au [56]
   Re: 'Phone Noise' - Roger Evans [16]
   My Sightings - Greg St. Pierre [41]
   Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc - Larry Hatch [26]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Ed Fouche [12]
   Re: 'Phone Noise' - Larry Hatch [20]
   Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Larry Hatch [29]
   Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Larry Hatch [31]
   Re: Incident at Exeter? - Jerry Cohen [20]
   UFO Humor or UFO Hummer - Jim Mortellaro [19]
   Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer - Jim Mortellaro [4]
   Re: UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking! - Jerry Cohen [27]
   Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed.... - Josh Goldstein [22]
   Length of Quotes - Josh Goldstein [11]
   Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - William Sawers [14]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Gary Alevy [37]
   The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Gary Alevy [280]
   Re: The 'Roswell Memo' Images - Stan Friedman [4]
   Re: Brisbane Sightings UFOICQ 2.12.98 - Diane Harrison [33]
   Re: The Challenge - Greg Sandow [33]
   Filer's Files #48-1998 - Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto [386]

  Dec 6:

   Re: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience - Michael Christol [7]
   Re: 'Roswell Memo' Images On Friedman's New CD ROM - Sean Jones [10]
   Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc - John White [18]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #283 - Alfred Lehmberg [87]
   Re: Roswell Revelation: 'Iceman Down' - Kenny Young [32]
   How To Film An Abduction - Rick Goldsmith [34]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Mendoza [34]
   What's New At Magonia - Mark Pilkington [15]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Jerome Clark [9]
   Special Charter Offer: The Global Situation Report - Michael Lindemann
   [81]
   Chrismas UFO-Cartoons - Werner Walter [5]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Thiago Ticchetti [15]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Greg Sandow [52]
   Slovenian 'UFO' Sighting Just Fabrication And Hoax - Milos Krmelj [29]
   Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer - Scott Carr [9]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Justin Naughton [17]
   Re: UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking! - Larry Hatch [16]
   Re: 'Phone Noises' - Bob Soetebier [131]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Ted Viens [38]
   Re: -=[For The Record]=- C-E: Roswell - Kevin Randle [45]
   Kevin Randle on 'Strange Days...Indeed' Tonight - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [5]
   Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Greg Sandow [6]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Bob Shell [7]
   Re: 'Phone Noise' - Marc Bell [35]
   Re: UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking! - Michael Christol [19]
   Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed... - Michael Christol [27]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - John Rimmer [28]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - John Rimmer [24]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Gary Alevy [47]
   Re: Chrismas UFO-Cartoons - Dan Sayes [4]
   Re: Chrismas UFO-Cartoons - Dan Sayers [4]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Jerome Clark [89]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Neil Morris [89]

  Dec 7:

   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Tim Brigham [9]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Tim Matthews [8]
   Security [was:'New' MJ-12 Documents...] - Sean Jones [14]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Tim Matthews [10]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Tim Matthews [9]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Tim Matthews [9]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Jim Mortellaro [25]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Jim Mortellaro [63]
   M-12' - Robert & Ryan Wood on Art Bell Tonight - Debbie Stock [6]
   Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer - Jim Mortellaro [27]
   Re: -=[For The Record]=- C-E: Roswell - Stan Friedman [8]
   Re: - UFO UpDates - Toronto [19]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Stan Friedman [7]
   Laser Provides First 3-D View Of Mars' North Pole -
   NASANews@hq.nasa.gov [108]
   The Roswell Declaration #2 - Joachim Koch [105]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Tim Matthews [21]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Jean van Gemert [3]
   Re: - Gary Alevy [19]
   Re: What's New At Magonia - Rebecca [8]
   Re: The Challenge - Dennis Stacy [87]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - David Rudiak [51]
   Australian Free Call Hot Line - Diane Harrison [24]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza
   [18]
   Re: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience - Ted Viens [78]
   Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed... - Dennis Stacy [32]
   Re: 'Phone Noise' - Jim Mortellaro [62]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Dennis Stacy [40]
   Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Ted Viens [5]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Greg Sandow [125]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Ted Viens [20]
   Doctor 'G' Updates Tomorrow - For People Who Need - Jim Mortellaro [55]

  Dec 8:

   Re: My Sightings - Patrick Lamb [5]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Jerome Clark [36]
   D'Amato, Belgian Wave And MJ-12 - Stig Agermose [793]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Brian Cuthbertson [6]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - David Rudiak [46]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 49 - Joseph Trainor [397]
   Recent Pennsylvania UFO Sighting Reports - Stan Gordon [87]
   Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Bob Shell [9]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Bob Shell [8]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Larry Hatch [8]
   Examining History/Origins Of "Retro-Virus" - Ryan S. Wood [89]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Bruce Maccabee [35]
   Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Leanne Martin [9]
   Fawcett Working On Book - Stig Agermose [42]
   Re: Security [was:'New' MJ-12 Documents...] - Jacquie Cosford [4]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Leanne Martin [10]
   Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer - Leanne Martin [10]
   Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed... - Michael Christol [27]
   Re: UFOs And The Real World - Gary Alevy [65]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Ted Viens [14]
   Abductions and Researcher Bias - Tim Brigham [153]
   Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed... - John Velez [20]
   UFO Anthology CD-ROM - Dreamland Interactive [58]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Gary Levy [33]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Gary Alevy [22]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Bill Weber [9]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Gary [22]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - David Rudiak [56]
   Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Greg Sandow [3]
   Re: The Challenge - Greg Sandow [69]
   Re: - James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com [68]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Neil Morris [34]
   Re: D'Amato, Belgian Wave And MJ-12 - Steven W. Kaeser [23]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Larry Hatch [20]
   BWW Media Alert 19981207 - BufoCalvin@aol.com [38]
   There Is Message Of Non-Human Intelligence - Patricia Mason [53]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Serge Salvaille [11]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Marc Bell [11]
   Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...] - Jim Mortellaro [27]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - James Bond Johnson
   <JBONJO@aol.com [68]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Rick Goldsmith [12]
   Re: There Is Message Of Non-Human Intelligence - Roger Evans [15]
   Re: UFOs And The Real World - Roger Evans [31]
   Re: The Challenge - Jim Mortellaro [37]

  Dec 9:

   Further RPIT Images Posted - Neil Morris [23]
   UFO Magazine [U.S.] Website - Don Ecker [16]
   Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...] - Serge Salvaille [6]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Jim Mortellaro [4]
   Hoagland - Lie/Lie - Robert A.M. Stephens [47]
   Re: The Challenge - Minna Laajala [36]
   Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Update 12-8-98 - Paul Anderson [35]
   Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec - Donald Ledger [6]
   Pulsar Newsletter - Issue No. 2 Part 1 - James Easton [637]
   Pulsar Newsletter - Issue No. 2 Part 2 - James Easton [489]
   Re: The Challenge - Dennis Stacy [76]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Greg St. Pierre [4]
   Re: The Challenge - Diane Lovett [24]
   Oppenheimer & Einstein Opinions - Doc Barry [17]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Ted Viens [13]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Bruce Maccabee [14]

  Dec 10:

   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Jim Deardorff [12]
   Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...] - Leanne Martin [7]
   Re: There Is Message Of Non-Human Intelligence - Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug
   [7]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug [9]
   Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...] - Jim Mortellaro [8]
   33 Years Ago Today: The Kecksburg, PA UFO Crash - Stan Gordon [191]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Dennis Stacy [18]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Scott Carr [6]
   Re: The Challenge - Marc Bell [38]
   The Goldwater Letters - Joachim Koch [165]
   Re: The Challenge - Roger Evans [13]
   Playfull Lights In The Scotland Skies? - Dave Ledger [104]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Roger Evans [73]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Gary Alevy [98]
   HOT GOSSIP UK - DECEMBER - Nick Pope's Weird World - Georgina Bruni
   [169]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Gary Alevy [8]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Jim Mortellaro [14]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - James Bond Johnson [7]
   December 7th 'Landing'? Poor Science Or... - Michael Theroux [18]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug [91]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Stan Friedman [9]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Greg St. Pierre [5]

  Dec 11:

   Re: The Goldwater Letters - James Bond Johnson [19]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Greg St. Pierre [6]
   Re: New MJ-12 documents - Project Kairos - Laurent Thiebaud [5]
   Filer's Files #49-1998 - UFO UpDates - Toronto [381]
   Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...] - Serge Salvaille [10]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Jerome Clark [41]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Serge Salvaille [19]
   MUFON SA and Cynthia Hind/UFO AFRINEWS - John Hayes [46]
   C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting - Karl T. Pflock [6]
   No Alien Landing - John Hayes [53]
   BAR 199811-12 - BufoCalvin@aol.com [299]
   Re: Pulsar Newsletter - Issue No. 2 Part 2 - James Easton [27]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Dennis Stacy [8]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Ted Viens [31]
   Roswell: The 'Debris' Photographs - James Easton [18]
   More HAARP Disinformation? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [267]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists] - Mark Cashman [102]
   Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer: An Analytic Profile - James Bond
   Johnson [106]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Mark Cashman [15]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Mark Cashman [24]
   Re: The Challenge - Greg Sandow [58]
   Re: Laura Lee Show E-News - December 12, 1998 - Laura Lee [143]
   Re: The Goldwater Letters - Mike Hallal [9]
   UFO Mid-Air Crash Filmed In Israel? - Nick Balaskas [93]
   Re: Recent Australian Sightings - Sue Lawrence [9]
   Correction to Filers Files #49 - Neil Morris [22]
   RAF Rudloe Manor - RAF Henlow - Tim Matthews [36]
   Re: The Goldwater Letters - Joachim Koch [14]
   Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...] - Jim Mortellaro [22]
   UFOs, Carols by Candle light - Oz - Diane Harrison [38]
   Roswell UFO Museum Dec. Lecture Cancelled - Dennis Balthaser [42]
   DISPATCH # 112 -- the weekly newsletter of - ParaScope@AOL.COM [110]

  Dec 12:

   Re: More HAARP Disinformation? - Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto [6]
   Hoagland, Bara & HAARP - Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto [5]
   -=[For The Record]=- P-47: ...1890s 'Airships'? - Moderator, UFO
   UpDates - Toronto [380]
   Re: WTS Magazine for December - WTS org [32]
   -=[For The Record]=- P-47: Real Disinformation - Jan Aldrich [74]
   WTS Magazine for December - WTS org [32]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Greg Sandow [2]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Gary [9]
   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet - Neil Morris [19]
   Pentagon Dubs Cyberspace A Key Battlefield - Stig Agermose [90]
   Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc. - Kal Korff [98]
   Strange Videotape: Missile Chases Meteor? - Kenny Young [15]
   ET Civilizations: Coming Of Age In The Milky Way - Stig Agermose [84]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Roger Evans [45]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Larry Hatch [32]
   Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field - Serge Salvaille [13]
   Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc. - Pat McCartney [23]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #284 - Alfred Lehmberg [91]
   Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo - Kevin Randle [20]

  Dec 13:

   Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc. - Serge Salvaille
   [20]
   Re: No Alien Landing - John Hayes [22]
   Re: The Goldwater Letters - Sean Jones [23]
   Re: MUFON SA and Cynthia Hind/UFO AFRINEWS - John Hayes [13]
   Latest on RAF Henlow, P&SS - Tim Matthews [24]
   Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc. - Alfred Lehmberg
   [57]
   Re: Fox Exposes Alien Autopsy Film As A Hoax - Werner Walter [4]
   Alevy - "A Response To My Critics" - Gary Alevy [13]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Mark Cashman [69]
   Insight On The Fox Special and Kiviat - Don Ecker [102]
   SDI - Tonight - Kal Korff - UFO UpDates - Toronto [9]
   Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics" - "Jerome Clark" [18]
   Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc. - Kevin Randle [11]
   Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc. - Kal Korff [29]
   Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc. - Kal Korff [24]
   Re: BWW Media Alert 19981213 - BufoCalvin@aol.com [107]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Brian Cuthbertson [31]
   Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics" - Roger Evans [37]
   Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics" - Michael Christol [8]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Greg Sandow [12]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Greg Sandow [13]
   Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help - Greg Sandow [37]
   Italian UFO Web Site - Alfredo Lissoni [7]
   Blather: The Doctor And The Devil - Daev Walsh - Blather [202]
   UFO Researcher Wendy Connors on #Visitations - Angela Shilling [75]
   Re: Insight On The Fox Special and Kiviat - Stan Friedman [17]
   Re: Fox Exposes Alien Autopsy Film As A Hoax - Joachim Koch [16]
   Re: Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc - Jim Mortellaro [15]

  Dec 14:

   Hynek 10/10/66 Newsweek - Pt. 2 (footnotes) - Jerry Cohen" [82]
   Hynek 10/10/66 Newsweek - Pt. 1 - Jerry Cohen [250]
   Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics" - Kevin Randle [10]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Roger Evans [16]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Larry Hatch [13]
   Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting - Bruce Maccabee [7]
   Re: - Sergey Korchagin [30]
   Kairos Press Release - Joe Firmage [211]
   Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc. - Bob Shell [20]
   Re: Insight On The Fox Special and Kiviat - Georgina Bruni [53]
   Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc. - Serge Salvaille
   [7]

  Dec 15:

   Invitation For Co-Operation For Research Abnormal - Sergey Korchagin
   [30]
   -=[For The Record]=- C.E.: Frank Edwards - Wendy Connors [107]
   Hoagland Issue - Mark Haywood [37]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? - Stephen Lewis [46]
   Flash RADAR? Evil Weather from HAARP? - Michael Theroux [11]
   Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc. - James Easton [123]
   Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc. - James Easton [137]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Greg St. Pierre [22]
   Summary of 12/17/66 Hynek Post Article - Jerry Cohen [92]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Roger Evans [15]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Rick Goldsmith [67]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Gary Alevy [96]
   Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo - KRandle993@aol.com
   [32]
   UFO Sighted At TUE - Terry Blanton [13]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Mark Cashman [26]
   Re: STS-88 Anomalous Object - Terry Blanton [11]
   Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help - Roger R. Prokic [7]

  Dec 16:

   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 50 - Joseph Trainor [508]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Jerome Clark [66]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? - Greg Sandow [8]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Roger Evans [39]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Jerome Clark [14]
   Re: UFO Sighted At TUE - Roger Evans [4]
   Hynek 12/17/66 Sat. Eve. Post article - Pt. 1 - Jerry Cohen [294]
   Hynek 12/17/66 Sat. Eve. Post article - Pt. 2 - Jerry Cohen [292]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Leanne Martin [9]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Greg Sandow [9]
   Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics" - Stephen G. Bassett [28]
   Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Update 12-15-98 - Paul Anderson [27]
   Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help - Greg Sandow [5]
   Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help - John Velez [39]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Jim Mortellaro [9]
   Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc. - Jim Deardorff [33]
   Fairchild's Saucer-Like Stratos Craft For Sale - Stig Agermose [30]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Greg Sandow [37]
   Re: 33 Years Ago Today: The Kecksburg, PA UFO Crash - Bob Young [186]
   Shlomo Arnon & Barry Goldwater - Shlomo Arnon [10]
   Re: UFO Sighted At TUE - Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug [5]
   Re: UFO Sighted At TUE - Mark Cashman [7]
   Re: How To Film An Abduction - Mark Cashman [28]
   Re: Abduction of Blacks? - Mark Cashman [21]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Jim Mortellaro [16]
   Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting - David Rudiak [114]
   Abductions: Return to the Herd - Roger Evans [79]
   Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help - Serge Salvaille [15]

  Dec 17:

   Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help - Jim Mortellaro [45]
   Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help - Diane Lovett [19]
   The Tex-Files - Roger Evans [11]
   Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help - Roger Evans [10]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Brian Cuthbertson [30]
   Expert: "Saucer-Shape Ideal For..." - Stig Agermose [40]
   1996 UFO Crash Off Isle Of Lewis Explained? - Stig Agermose [96]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Greg Sandow [29]
   NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out - Peter Gersten [156]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Michael Christol [30]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Gary Alevy [20]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Serge Salvaille [44]
   The Giant Rock Conventions - Stig Agermose [234]
   Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help - UFO UpDates - Toronto [66]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Sharon Kardol [45]
   Abductees: Ethnic Breakdown - John Velez [24]
   Re: UFO Sighted At TUE - Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. [13]
   Triangle Craft over Baghdad? - Ignatius Graffeo [19]
   Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out - Robert A.M.
   Stephens [83]
   Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help - Nick Balaskas [26]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Jim Deardorff [37]

  Dec 18:

   Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help - Ken Raymond [54]
   Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec - Gilles Milot [10]
   Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help - Terry Blanton [13]
   Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help - Jim Deardorff [29]
   Re: Abductees: Ethnic Breakdown - Thiago Ticchetti [7]
   Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad? - Thiago Ticchetti [7]
   Re: Glenn Calls Himself A 'UFO Agnostic' - Serge Salvaille [6]
   Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help - Jim Mortellaro [8]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Greg Sandow [14]
   Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad? - Henny van der Pluijm [14]
   Re: UFO Sighted At TUE - Nick Balaskas [34]
   Paul Devereux Web Site & Conference - Stephen Lewis [88]
   Blind Abductees? - Stephen Lewis [16]
   Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics" - James Mortellaro [24]
   Closing of Project Blue Book - NICAP - Jerry Cohen [39]
   Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out - Robert A. M.
   Stephens [124]
   -=[For The Record]=- Oberg/Cooper rebuttal.5a - Jerry Cohen [182]
   -=[For The Record]=- Oberg/Cooper rebuttal.5b - Jerry Cohen [234]
   Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out - Robert A. M.
   Stephens [68]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Greg St. Pierre [15]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Gary Alevy [51]
   Re: Hynek 12/17/66 Sat. Eve. Post article - Pt. 1 - Bruce Maccabee [55]
   Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting - Bruce Maccabee [34]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Jan Aldrich [93]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Leanne Martin [27]
   Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help - John Velez [32]
   Sighting's On The Rise - Expert, Alice Springs - Diane Harrison [50]
   Hynek At The United Nations - 11-27-78 - John Tenney [310]
   Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad? - Diane Lovett [8]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Jerome Clark [13]
   Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad? - Tim Matthews [12]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Jim Mortellaro [41]
   Help Needed - Sean Jones [18]
   Moore UFO Sighting - Joel Carpenter [9]
   Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad? - Nick Balaskas [15]
   Re: Abductees: Ethnic Breakdown - "J. Rimmer" [9]
   Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help - John Velez [39]
   Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out - Christophe Meessen
   [110]
   Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec - Donald Ledger [8]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Jim Mortellaro [56]
   London, UK sighting 12-16-98 - Marc Bell [40]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Jerome Clark [11]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Leanne Martin [54]

  Dec 19:

   Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out - Christophe Meessen
   [31]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Jim Mortellaro [53]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Leanne Martin [45]
   Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc. - James Easton [16]
   Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo - James Easton [28]
   Re: The Goldwater Letters - James Easton [10]
   Nanowire Prototype From Israel - Stig Agermose [48]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Jan Aldrich [8]
   Sighting Near Hanford Nuclear Power Plant - Stig Agermose [29]
   Re: Howe: Insider On MJ12, Aztec Crash 1952 - Stig Agermose [260]
   Re: Filer's Files #50-1998 - Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto [393]
   Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell - Bob Soetebier [19]
   Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad? - Ignatius Graffeo [19]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Michael Christol [51]
   ELFIS ISSUE 8 Winter 98 part 1 - Stephen MILES Lewis [48]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Roger Evans [34]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Michael Christol [20]
   Re: Abductions: proof? - Lesley Cluff [48]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Greg Sandow [23]
   'Ice Man Down' - New Roswell Revelation - Kenny Young [15]
   Borderlands Responds to 'Critics Fire Blanks' - Michael Theroux [11]
   Re: Hynek At The United Nations - 11-27-78 - Larry Hatch [16]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Michael Christol [167]
   Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad? - Larry Hatch [9]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #285 - Alfred Lehmberg [96]
   Re: Help Needed - Bob Shell [5]
   Re: - Gary [28]
   Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell - Marc Bell [14]
   Re: Abductions: proof? - John Rimmer [7]
   Note from Barry Greenwood - Ed Stewart [12]

  Dec 20:

   Re: 'Ice Man Down' - New Roswell Revelation - Kevin Randle [19]
   Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo - Kevin Randle [18]
   Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell - Steven W. Kaeser [13]
   Re: Filer's Files #50-1998 - Neil Morris [67]
   Leanne Martin - Jsmortell@aol.com [24]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Gary [37]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Donald Ledger [3]
   Re: Filer's Files #50-1998 - James Bond Johnson [42]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Jim Mortellaro [11]
   NASA contractor sets record straight! [URL] - Bob Soetebier [5]
   Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell - Bob Soetebier [43]
   Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [162]
   New MJ-12/Glenn Pace/Element 115 Baloney - Brad Sparks [548]
   Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias - Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate
   [155]
   Re: Filer's Files #50 [Abductions] - Beverly Trout [70]
   Re: - Bob Shell [10]
   Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax' - Bob Shell [17]
   BWW Media Alert 19981220 - BufoCalvin@aol.com [97]
   Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo - James Bond Johnson
   [28]
   Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax' - Brad Sparks [13]
   Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias - Greg Sandow [70]
   Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias - Jerome Clark [53]
   Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo - Bob Shell [10]
   'Strange Days... Indeed' - Tonight Jerome Clark - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [15]

  Dec 21:

   Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting - Brad Sparks [187]
   Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo - Kevin Randle [41]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Jan Aldrich [10]
   Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo - Kevin Randle [15]
   Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc. - Jim Deardorff [19]
   Re: Triangular UFOs - Jim Mortellaro [18]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - John Rimmer [41]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Gary Alevy [125]
   Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax' - James Easton [85]
   Ball Lighting and Tornadoes - Greg St. Pierre [42]
   Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax' - Bob Shell [8]
   Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias - Bob Thrift - Institute for UFO
   Research [42]
   Blather: enough is enough - Daev Walsh [185]
   Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax' - Steven Kaeser [9]
   Happy Christmas - UK.UFO.NW - UFO UpDates - Toronto [10]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Jerome Clark [65]
   The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - John Velez [36]
   Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias - Greg Sandow [7]
   Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo - Dennis [22]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Michael Christol [54]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Michael Christol [3]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Jan Aldrich [147]

  Dec 22:

   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Roger Evans [68]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Alfred Lehmberg
   [23]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Greg St. Pierre [8]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Michael Christol [15]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - James Bond Johnson
   [15]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Ted Viens [25]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Roger Evans [25]
   Mis-statement Made By 'Robert A. M. Stephens'? - Bob Soetebier [51]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Tim Brigham -
   Devil's Advocate [70]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Gary Alevy [64]
   Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax' - Bob Shell [14]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Bob Shell [18]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Jim Mortellaro [21]
   Kecksburg PA Newsclipping? - John Tenney [73]
   Defence Department Docs Spotlight Canada's X-Files - Moira Scott [64]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Leanne Martin [66]

  Dec 23:

   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Serge Salvaille
   [68]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Jerome Clark [50]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Brian Cuthbertson
   [17]
   Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell - Marc Bell [19]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Brian Cuthbertson
   [7]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - John Velez [102]
   Cattle Mutilations Apparently Solved! - Dave Ledger [41]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Greg Sandow [4]
   UFO ROUNDUP Volume 3, Number 51 - Joseph Trainor [402]
   Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting - Bruce Maccabee [43]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - "Leanne Martin" [74]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Leanne Martin [18]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Leanne Martin [4]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - John Rimmer [31]
   Advertising Space Literally Out Of This World - Stig Agermose [59]
   Dr. Gerald K. Haines - He's Back - Gary Alevy [28]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Ted Viens [35]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - John Velez [69]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Sharon Kardol [14]
   Re: Cattle Mutilations Solved! - Larry Hatch [8]
   Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell - Steven W. Kaeser [32]
   Triangle Seen In Utah? - Stig Agermose [13]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Ted Viens [25]
   12 days of Christmas - Sheree Cox [132]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Roger Evans [29]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Roger Evans [68]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer -
   moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com [11]
   Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax' - Edoardo Russo [12]
   Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc. - John W. Ratcliff
   [42]
   Re: Need UFO Investigator In Vermont, USA - Ben Field [30]

  Dec 24:

   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Brian Straight [9]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Tim Brigham [32]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Sheree Cox [16]
   The Skeptical Believer - Tim Brigham [616]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - John Velez [30]
   Ohio UFO Meeting - UfoContat@aol.com [22]
   Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting - Jim Deardorff [16]
   Ballistic Missile Sighted Over Dr. Gesundt's House! - Jim Mortellaro
   [15]
   Re: Return to the Herd - Sharon Kardol [25]
   Re: Need UFO Investigator In Vermont, USA - Ted Viens [12]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Gary Alevy [257]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Gary Alevy [24]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Greg St. Pierre
   [18]
   Pix Of Eros Asteroid Show Artificial Working - Stig Agermose [19]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - John Velez [21]
   Niklas Greetings - Niklas Rasche [4]
   Happy Holidays - Steven W. Kaeser [7]
   Season's Greetings & List Break - UFO UpDates - Toronto [54]

  Dec 26:

   Laura Lee Show - webmaster@lauralee.com [180]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Ted Viens [16]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Neil Morris [54]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Jim Mortellaro [37]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Greg St. Pierre [8]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - John Velez [24]
   New Email Address for Kal Korff/Fox Special - Kal Korff [19]
   Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting - Bruce Maccabee [33]
   Eros And Phobos: Similar Signs Of Artificiality - Stig Agermose [45]

  Dec 27:

   Eros: First Close-Up By NEAR - UFO UpDates - Toronto [53]
   "Wang's" Major 'Revelations' on Campbell & - Pat McCartney [102]
   Korff Spams The News Groups! - Alfred Lehmberg [55]
   Mexican UFOs? - Peggy Dillard [2]
   Korff Spams The News Groups! - #2 - Alfred Lehmberg [67]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #286 - Alfred Lehmberg [69]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Larry Hatch [18]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - "Stan Friedman" [22]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Roger Evans [8]
   Re: The Skeptical Believer - Roger Evans [59]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Roger Evans [24]
   Re: Korff Spams The News Groups! - James Bond Johnson [76]
   Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting - Jim Deardorff [13]
   Re: Korff Spams The News Groups! - #2 - Jim Mortellaro [21]
   CUN - National UFO Center of Italy Site - Alfredo Lissoni [5]
   Happy New Year - Sergey Korchagin [5]
   Serious Questions - Answered - Robert A. M. Stephens" [307]
   Leah Monier 'True Abduction' Report Updated - Alex Field [14]
   Re: Mexican UFOs? - Dan Geib [7]
   Re: Korff Spams The News Groups! - Kevin Randle [78]
   'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Robert A.M. - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [7]
   BWW Media Alert 199812277 - BufoCalvin@aol.com [89]
   Re: The Skeptical Believer - Jerome Clark [18]
   Sightings - Czarnik - Robert A. M. Stephens [152]

  Dec 28:

   Re: The Skeptical Believer - Roger Evans [34]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Gary [11]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Dave Ledger [128]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Alfred Lehmberg [46]
   Re: - Greg Sandow [12]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Kille - Brian Straight [3]
   Top 10 UFO-Related News Stories of 1998? - Ignatius Graffeo [28]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Mark Cashman [35]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Serge Salvaille [42]
   Dr. G's AWSCHNOTS Service Launched! - Jim Mortellaro [55]
   Re: Fox TV Special -- The 'Last' Word - Steven Kaeser [8]
   'Best UFO Cases - Europe' - Book - UFO UpDates - Toronto [87]
   Test - Please Ignore - UFO UpDates - Toronto [17]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Jim Mortellaro [24]
   Re: STS-88 Anomalous Object - Michel M. Deschamps [16]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 52 - Joseph Trainor [338]
   Re: Dr. G's AWSCHNOTS Service Launched! - Bob Shell [8]
   Re: The Skeptical Believer - Greg Sandow [16]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - John Velez [67]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Greg Sandow [3]
   Re: Korff Spams The News Groups! - Kal Korff [37]
   Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Jim Mortellaro [15]
   Native Americans May Have Had Sun Calendar 4,000 - Stig Agermose [26]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Michael Christol [9]
   'World's Greatest Hoaxes' - Jacques Poulet [43]

  Dec 29:

   Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc. - James Easton [196]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer - Dennis Stacy [23]
   FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - John W. Ratcliff [53]
   Re: 'World's Greatest Hoaxes' - Michael Christol [8]
   Re: Fox TV Special - John Velez [54]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Kal Korff [41]
   -=[For The Record]=- Military Ability to Detect & - Moderator, UFO
   UpDates - Toronto [117]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Roger Evans [44]
   Re: Korff Spams The News Groups! - Alfred Lehmberg [72]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Ron Decker [18]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - "Roger R. Prokic" [18]
   FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - Bob Shell [3]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Bob Shell [10]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Michael Christol [51]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread - Jim Mortellaro [42]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Michael Christol [168]
   Re: Korff Spams The News Groups! - Kal Korff [37]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Jim Mortellaro [67]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - John Ratcliff [28]
   Re: Dr. G's AWSCHNOTS Service Launched! - Jsmortell@aol.com [18]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Michael Christol [59]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Roger Evans [43]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Terry Blanton [12]
   Re: Fox TV Special - John Velez [46]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - John Rimmer [4]

  Dec 30:

   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread - Steven Kaeser [26]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Bob Shell [14]
   BBC Program On British Cattle Mutilations - Stig Agermose [46]
   The 1998 Blivet Awards - Bob Thrift - Institute for UFO Research [65]
   Is 'E.T' A Retelling Of The Christ Story? - Stig Agermose [65]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Michael Christol [48]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Jan Aldrich [24]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Jim Deardorff [121]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread - Bob Shell [7]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread - Michael Christol [17]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Tim Matthews [21]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Tim Matthews [12]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Roger Evans [28]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Bob Shell [3]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Mark Cashman [33]
   Re: BBC Program On British Cattle Mutilations - Lynda Matthews [137]
   Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread - Steven Kaeser [19]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Roger Evans [5]
   Montana UFO Caught on Video - "Webmaster" [18]

  Dec 31:

   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Jim Mortellaro [15]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Geri & Alfred Webre
   [28]
   Re: DISPATCH # 113 -- the weekly newsletter of - ParaScope@AOL.COM
   [145]
   Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens - Robert A. M. Stephens [26]
   Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens - Robert A.M. Stephens [21]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Serge Salvaille [8]
   Info on '92 Sighting - Sharon Kardol [20]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - James Easton [331]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Roger R. Prokic [28]
   Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens - Robert A.M. Stephens [107]





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   Dec > Dec 1

                  Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:53:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 02:17:37 -0500
Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 21:03:01 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>I don't know if I'd characterize the majority of quotes you gave
>as hostile, I think they simply reflect a lack of familiarity
>with the subject of UFOs.

Hi, Greg.

It's a dismissive lack of familiarity. The SETI scientists
aren't famliar with UFOs, and, most important, don't want to be,
because they've already made up their minds that there's nothing
there. I think you'd catch the tone better if I quoted really
lengthy passages. Frank Drake, for instance, actually went out
and investigated some UFO reports -- which only strengthened his
scorn.

Thanks for your kind words, by the way!





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                   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 01:48:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 03:22:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images


>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images
>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:44:39 -0400

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images
>>Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:56:26 -0500

>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>>Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 11:34:42 EST
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: The 'Roswell Memo' Images

>>>Hi List and all -

>>>Russ Estes has conducted a number of tests on the memo, letter,
>>>TWX, telex seen in General Ramey's hand. Estes used a
>>>professional video camera that cost about $50,000 originally, a
>>>$7000 macro lens, and about $50,000 worth of computer equipment.
>>>He used Adobe Photoshop 4.0 as software. He also had it flat
>>>scanned at 9000 dpi which created a file of about 1.5 gigabits.
>>>In other words, he used the best equipment available for the
>>>imagining.

>>>He also used a microscope to examine the memo. He, and others
>>>used magnifying glasses, jewelers' loops, and their bare eyes.
>>>They used every and all techniques to look at the memo General
>>>Ramey held (and yes, they noticed that he had a ragged thumb
>>>nail that could mean he bites his nails or that he had broken
>>>it).

<snip >

>>>Estes used the best equipment and software available to examine
>>>the memo seen on the 16 x 20 print and said that he could not
>>>see much that was not open to interpretation on the memo. It
>>>was, to him, "faces in the clouds". In other words, the
>>>interpretation put on the memo was based on what the viewer
>>>wanted to see.

><snip>

>The real problem is not so much the equipment, but that neither
>Haines nor Estes were working from a negative and neither was
>working from a large enlargement of the Ramey memo area.

><snip>

>Happy hunting...

>Nobody said it would be easy.

>Stan Friedman


Perhaps the real problem to this approach is that it is
inadequate to the task and attempts to use a problem solving
approach which is:

1) outdated - magnification of various sorts: video, macro
lenses, microscopes, etc.

2) technically inadequate - image improvements expected by
application of, Adobe Photoshop, which is capable of only basic
image processing operations.

Back in the 70's I was conversant with this type of imaging
analysis problem and I can certainly tell you that the
professionals did not approach this type of task in this way.

Among the problems that keep one from reading the message are
image blur, poor resolution and contrast, and image noise; due
to lens abberations, motion and imperfections in the imaging
chain etc.

As James Bond Johnson knows exactly which camera he used to take
the picture, this should be obtained or at least the same model
with same lens obtained.  The optical chain will need to be
studied and measured.  A mathematical, computational solution
can be developed which can correct for the defects in the
imaging chain.  This includes motion, lens abberations, film
noise, etc.  That the professionals really do it this way can be
verified by reading the image processing literature.  To claim
that the other approaches cited so far are definitive are either
amateurish or disingenously saying that the best of technology
has been appplied.

The imaging analysis literature, Society of Photoptical and
Instrumentation (SPIE) journals to start from, should be
consulted and an photo-reconstruction expert or laboratory
engaged; many university engineering centers and corporations
have both the technical capabilities and personnel knowledgable
to perform a state of the art image reconstruction.

I doubt that the National Photo Interpretation Center (NPIC)
would want to take on such a politically charged task but there
are enough readers of this list with intelligence connections,
that they may be able to engage their local facility!

I have seen worse images successfully and unambiguously be
interpreted following the application of these techniques.  The
key is having the camera and the lens, the film and intimate
knowledge of all parts of the imaging chain.  If you see the
cameras and lens disappear from antique or used camera shops
you'll know why. ;-)

The key to knowing if the proposed reconstruction procedure has
failed or succeeded is publication of the methodology and
results by each group attempting the reconstruction.  Verbal
pronouncements that what we did worked or didn't or
proclamations that the results were ambiguous won't cut it.  We
used to call this approach science back in high school (Bronx





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   Dec > Dec 1

               Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 06:33:35 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 09:23:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth


>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 17:45:47 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:28:37 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth

><snip>

>>One of the planets astronomers recently discovered appears to be
>>a gas giant, perhaps a Saturn or Big Jup type planet.  The
>>gravity on this type world would likely be very high.  Would
>>these creatures, as we have seen them described, be able to live
>>on such a world?  (hypothetically)

>>One would assume that on a world with more than two or three
>>G's, an entity might be stocky and heavily muscled.

>>Perhaps not.  I do not know.  I was hoping someone(s) has done
>>some thinking and/or research along these lines.

><snip>

>Hi Jim,

>You have to remember that nearly all the extra-solar planets
>"discovered" have masses anywhere from about that of Jupiter to
>a brown dwarf (a star in the feather weight class).  As Stan
>mentioned in an earlier e-mail, the reason for this is that we
>still do not have the technology to "see" Earth size planets (or
>any extra-solar planets) orbiting around nearby stars, at least
>not just yet.  Since large planets seem to be present orbiting
>around some nearby stars, this would strongly suggest that there
>should be many more Earth size planets there too.  If this is
>soon shown to be true, then very light built E.T.s such as the
>"Greys" ("Grays" with Canadian passports) can be assumed to come
>from these less massive planets.

>Has anyone suggested that the Dinosaurs or other large living
>creatures such as elephants originated on a Jupiter size planet
>with a large gravity or that pink flamingos came from a planet
>smaller that Earth simply because of their anatomy? As you can
>see, creatures of all sizes, body types, skin colours and
>shades, different size and types of eyes, etc. can come from a
>single planet, just like the many very different type of living
>creatures we have here on Earth. The first creaturers from Earth
>to be sent out into space to another world (the Moon) and back
>in the late 1960's were turtles (aboard a USSR Zond sapcecraft).
>What assumptions about the home planet of these turtles would
>any E.T.s who saw them make?

>A few years ago, some of my biology colleagues down the hall
>were a little disturbed with the Alien Autopsy film that was
>shown on T.V.  If real E.T.s were so very much human looking,
>they felt they could not have independently evolved to look like
>us without the act of the same Creator who made us. Fortunately
>for them, most ufologists concluded that this A.A. film was a
>hoax and they didn't have to reconsider their assumptions.

>Do we have any real E.T. bodies or autopsy reports in the public
>domain?  If not, then we have no reliable or consistent
>information for the physical makeup of E.T.s to give us clues
>about their solar system and home planet(s) anyways.

>Nick Balaskas


Good points, Nick.

It has always seemed like backwards reasoning to me to assume
that small creatures would evolve in low gravity, big ones in
high gravity.

As for the AA film, even though many UFOlogists have dismissed
it as a hoax, we should all remember that it has not been proved
to be a hoax.  Not yet, anyway.  The file is still open on this
one.

I, for one, continue to assert that we have no strong evidence
as yet that the phenomenon we are attempting to study has
anything extraterrestrial about it.  The razor just doesn't cut
that way.

Bob






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   Dec > Dec 1

                   Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 06:40:08 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 09:25:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images


>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images
>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 18:48:00 -0400

>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 20:07:52 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images

>>>From: "Stan Friedman" <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>>>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images
>>>Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 07:58:21 -0400

>>Stan, old man -

>>>Neither Dick Haines nor Russ had this quality information to
>>>work with.

>>>Stan Friedman

>>So what did your scanning of the negative reveal? Can you detect
>>anything on the negative that hasn't been discussed here? Can
>>you make out the words to a degree that eliminates the ambiguity
>>of the information?

>>Seems to me that Russ Estes and Dick Haines were working with
>>the best material they had to offer and those results have been
>>posted. It also seems to me that some of the interpretations are
>>in direct conflict with other interpretations. If you have a
>>better interpretation, I know that I would like to hear what it
>>is.

>>KRandle

>I haven't said I had any interpretation.

>I will say that the better the source and the more analysts
>involved, the more likely that an accurate reading can be done.

>I wasn't knocking what Estes and Haines had done. They did the
>best they could with what was available.

>Now there is better source material available.

>Scans of the equivalent of the memo portion of a 55"x70" print
>and of the negative, and of an old print (that isn't a
>fingernail problem, it's a negative scratch) are more likely
>likely to provide an accurate interpretation.

>Seems pretty straightforward to me.

>Stan Friedman


Stan, Kevin, and all,

Readily available software like Adobe Photoshop and its clones
is simply not up to the task presented by these images.

There is software which could sharpen this image, and probably
make the writing easily read with no interpretation.  However,
this software, which has been written about in the photographic
press, is not generally available outside the intelligence and
criminal investigation realm.  I have seen examples of images
which any analyst would dismiss as hopeless blurs restored to
high quality by these programs.

What we need is an insider with access to this software.

I am going to start asking around within the photographic
community to see if I can get any leads on such a person.  I
suggest that anyone here with any real intelligence or criminal
investigation contacts begin similar inquiries.

Bob






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   Dec > Dec 1

                      Re: When Seti Gets An ET Signal!

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:23:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 09:31:05 -0500
Subject: Re: When Seti Gets An ET Signal!


>From: Greg St. Pierrre <strmnut@aol.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 17:16:56 EST
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: When Seti Gets An ET Signal!

>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: When SETI Gets An ET Signal!
>>Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 14:00:59 -0400

>>>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>>>Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:30:43 EST
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: When SETI Gets An ET Signal!


>>>I have an idea. Lets have each camp elect a representative to be
>>>sent into a boxing ring to settle it mano e mano. Winner takes
>>>all available funding....oh, and a cool belt.

>>>Whaddya say Stanton? You seem pretty spry, think you could take
>>>Captain SETI?

>>I have already done debates with Peter Brookesmith at Oxford
>>University Debating Society (we got 60% of the vote), with Phil
>>Klass at Trinity University, with 3 professors vs Tim Good, Nick
>>Pope and me in the UK on TV 90 minutes. 92% of 100,000 callers
>>said yes to the Question Do you think aliens are visiting Earth.
>>Sure in a war of ideas, any time.

>>Stan

>No no, Stan, I meant a _real_ boxing ring! I'd pay good money to
>see you whip the tar out of some SETI weenie.

>:-)

>Greg

Hey man,

I am 64 years old , out of shape, and not about to enter
anybody's boxing ring.

Besides, Jill Tartar is considered to be a lady.

Frank Drake was in the Naval Reserve for at least 10 years and
might have high-placed friends.

Bernie Oliver has lots of money behind him at HP.....

I prefer facts to fisticuffs - as somebody must have said.

Stan Friedman





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   Dec > Dec 1

                   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:04:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 09:33:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images



>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:47:43 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images


>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:01:11 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images

>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>>Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 11:34:42 EST
>>>Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 14:38:52 -0500
>>>Subject: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images
>>

<snip>

>>A conclusion could be made in a few minutes to determine if
>>further study was needed outside the library and in a lab.

>>Are there problems with this scenario that I'm not aware of?

>>Roger Evans
>>Houston, Texas

>Roger Evans:

>Perhaps you could arrange to take your microscope
>and go to the UTA library and view the Ramey Message,
>the glyphs and other anomalous objects directly from
>the negatives. I think that Dr. Saxon and Sally Gross and
>the other staffers there would be most cooperative in
>supporting your quest. I know they permitted me to examine
>the negatives (after I had donned their white gloves!)
>last December at the library. But I had neglected to take
>my microscope! Please tell us what you discover!

>James Bond Johnson


James, Roger & List,

I wonder, by using the correct types of some (probably
expensive) hardware, perhaps the next step is to take electron
microscopic or digitized stereo, microscopic photos of -
preferably - the original negative? In this way the image might
possibly be electronically transferred, 'manipulated' and viewed
from all 3 dimensions using some 3-D CAD program, or directly
viewed using 3-D spectacles (also on Internet?).


Regards,
AWS






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                   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:36:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 09:43:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 15:54:43 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images


>>The real problem is not so much the equipment, but that neither
>>Haines nor Estes were working from a negative and neither was
>>working from a large enlargement of the Ramey memo area.

>>As I have noted the 8x10 print of the memo area is equivalent to
>>working from a 55x70 print.

>It strikes me that we might be arguing over a difference that
>doesn't exist. If we assume that Dr. Johnson was focusing his
>camera on General Ramey and not the memo held in his hand, then
>it might be impossible to resolve it to a point where it would
>become clear. It wouldn't matter if we blew it up to the size of
>a billboard because the memo would be relatively out of focus.

>This would hold true for the 16 x 20 prints that many of us are
>using. Again, the area of focus would be General Ramey and not
>the memo he was holding. I know that when I ordered the prints,
>I didn't tell them to focus based on the memo and not General
>Ramey.

>This problem might be eliminated on the negative, but then we
>have to deal with the area of focus when the picture was taken.

>What this means is that we might not be able to resolve the
>words on the memo because, when the photograph was taken, the
>camera was not focused at that point. In that case, we would
>still be attempting to get at the best guess for what the words
>are based on an analysis of the length of the words, the shapes
>of the images and how they relate to capital letters.

>What I find interesting is that we still don't know what Stan
>and his people have found from their examination. Does his
>scanned negative resolve the words any better than the 16 x 20
>prints, or are we still dealing with his best guess as to what
>the memo says?

>KRandle


To the best of my recall I have not expressed a final opinion as
to what is on the memo. I consider the elucidation a work in
progress. I expect that some one far more adept than I will use
layering techniques with the new improved  scans to read most of
the words.The more people working on it the better. If I already
had a strong opinion, I would have published it. Let the chips
fall where they may.  It is in my gray basket.

By the way my very competent associate Rob Belyea, who is rather
busy running a company, suggested I warn those interested in
this problem "not to waste time on compressed images. Just use
.psd, .tif, .bmp, .png, or any vector mapped metafile like .cgm
Don't use .jpg, .jpe, .jpeg, .lzw or any compression that
results in change to the original. Jpeg and similar routines use
some slick math to turn huge arcs and circles, with millions of
data points, into fewer and fewer tangents. After repeated passes
a circle becomes a square..."

This is one of the reasons we are offering the CD-ROM with all
the scans on it so that people won't have to compress poorer
files and send them on the internet. The CDROM has about 188MB.

Stan Friedman







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                   Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 11:06:43 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 09:55:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images
>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 19:53:40 PST

>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 20:07:52 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo'
>Images

>>>From: "Stan Friedman" <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>>>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images
>>>Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 07:58:21 -0400

<snip>

>G'day KRandle, RPITs & List,

>As a 'minor' RPIT team member I can only say that all we want
>from the Roswell images are interpretations. As such, we don't
>care if any interpretations clash with each other. Why? Because
>we want differing inputs, opinions and interpretations so that
>at least we are providing a stimulus to solve what Bond sees as
>his Roswell Riddle. So what if we end up finding different
>results? There's no big deal in this. It happens everyday in
>every field of study i.e. different researchers looking at the
>same data, often even with identical tools, reach differing
>conclusions and science, in the long term, is the better for it.
>The knowledge base improves because of it. You could say that
>the 'genetic pool' of our knowledge is better for the 'genetic
>diversity' experiments that we all apply to our resourecs.

>For my part, I doubt whether we will get much of anything
>concretely worthwhile in the final consensus, if indeed there is
>one, because the raw data is so difficult to sort. But as for
>our energies they have been well tested, the ends are justifying
>the means, and the journey is well worth the taking even if
>members of the group get off at different stops.

>Regards,
>Leanne  ];-)


I want to congratulate Leanne on this fine statement! She has
truly captured, identified and articulated the meaning of The
Quest!

James Bond Johnson





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   Dec > Dec 1

                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 09:14:45 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:06:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:06:21 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 98 13:13:03 PST

>>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 09:43:19 +0000
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>>>Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 09:18:15 -0500

>>>>>Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 19:21:18 +0000
>>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>>>>>From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>

>>It is indeed touching, John, that you "refuse to believe there
>>is _no_ connection whatsoever between the current abduction
>>panic [sic] in the USA and concern over `alien' immigration."  I
>>suppose it's much easier to make sweeping statements about what
>>Americans think when you don't live here, as you don't.

>>I'd sure like to know, for example, where you get the idea that
>>there is a "panic" about abductions in my country.  As a
>>lifelong citizen, I can testify that the subject virtually never
>>comes up in my daily interactions with other Americans, even
>>those who know of my interest in UFOs.  Some panic.

>Personally I'd reckon a situation where thousands, maybe tens of
>thousands of my fellow citizens appear to believe that they have
>been abducted by creatures from another planet to be something
>of a panic. But maybe I lack that typical sang-froid that we
>English are supposed to enjoy. Do you share their belief Jerry?
>Perhaps the fact that you're not panicking suggests that you
>don't.

Interesting.  The only source for the notion that "thousands,
maybe tens of thousands," of Americans believe they have been
abducted by ETs (and thus of the curious notion that an
"abduction panic" is going on here) is the much-disputed Roper
poll.  I'd always been under the impression that you were among
those who disputed its methodoloy and conclusions.  Or do you
accept them only when they serve your purposes?

>>It's this
>>sort of loose and careless use of language that years ago drove
>>me from advocacy of psychosocial hypotheses.

>>In any event, unless you can produce clear and specific evidence
>>(or even, for that matter, merely intriguing and suggestive
>>evidence) that Americans everywhere deeply fear Hispanic
>>immigration and therefore suffer vivid fantasies about abduction
>>by decidedly non-Hispanic extraterrestrials, it simply does not
>>matter what you believe or refuse to believe.

>Read David Jacob's 'The Threat' again if you want to see the
>language and imagery of racial fear used in reference to the
>"Aliens".

I have read The Threat, John, and I'm afraid I don't see it. In
any event, based of what I've seen on your commentary on
American life, I doubt you know much about "racial fear" as it
manifests (or does not manifest) in life here. Being an American
who's had a longstanding interest in our racial history and
who's reasonably well read on the subject, I think I'd notice
these themes if they were there.  I have reservations about The
Threat (an enormously interesting book, whatever you make of its
conclusions), and I am interested in thoughtful alternative
interpretations of its content.  I don't think, however, that
serious inquiry is served by the sort of simplistic reductionism
you're offering up here.

You would do well, in my opinion, to stick to judging things you
know something about, such as things that happen around you.  On
American life, culture, and anxiety you don't make a whole lot
of sense, I'm afraid. When I read your observations, I can't
help thinking of those British movies that get their American
characters all wrong (e.g., David Lean's "Lawrence of Arabia")..

Still, I'd be glad to see what you take to be the evidence for
(a) widespread fear of Hispanics and (b) conversion of same
into fantasies about non-Hispanic-looking ETs.  Until we see
that sort of evidence, all we're seeing is imaginative, airy,
empirically baseless speculation. In other words, the
psychosocial hypothesis in action.

Jerry Clark





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   Dec > Dec 1

                  Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 09:33:08 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:19:37 -0500
Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 15:53:09 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 98 12:18:36 PST
>>Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:14:33 -0500
>>Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>Previously, I had offered:

>>>When I speak of "SETI supporters", I don't
>>>mean high profile individuals or organizations with their own
>>>agendas. I'm talking about average folk. Both SETI and Ufology
>>>have their share of nut-niks that like to stir up trouble. But
>>>they are hardly the majority in either group, and I think you
>>>know that.

>Jerry's response:

>>If you don't mean "high profile individuals or organizations
>>with their own agendas", you should have made that clear.
>>It is the high profile individuals or organizations with their
>>own agendas that get the attention, publication, and funding;
>>if there is, at the ground level of SETI support, a feeling that
>>UFO research is both worthwhile and neglected, it (a) seems
>>not to have found its voice and (b) doesn't matter, since the
>>Tartars, Drakes, and Sagans have traditionally dominated
>>the field and defined it.

>It doesn't matter?

>I'm sorry, Jerry, but this is just plain silly.

>A handfull of people do NOT define what the masses think, these
>days. If it's that easy, then Ufology should have no problem
>dominating and defining it's own field. It could then move on to
>being more productive and organized than it has been.

If you maintain that SETI supporters support UFO research,
except for a few "fringe" characters (i.e., those who speak for
SETI, lead it, work at it, write about it, and define it), it is
up to you to provide the evidence.  I don't see any, and neither
does anybody else.  Did you miss Greg Sandow's posting quoting
all sorts of anti-UFO sentiments from just about every prominent
SETIan?  I'm afraid you're arguing without evidence. I'll take
your word for it that out there, among those with no access to
science or media, without voice or influence, are some SETI
enthusiasts who support UFO research. So what?  Where SETI's
agenda is concerned, they're about as influential here as truck
drivers who support UFO research.

>>>While you included Serge's comments that supported your point of
>>>view, you left out Serge's petty desire that SETI fail to make
>>>contact with exterrestrial life. It's a pretty lame-ass wish,
>>>don't you think, for someone supposedly concerned with making
>>>contact as soon as possible. Are you afraid that people reading
>>>this will think him typical of all Ufologists? Think about it.

> Your answer:

>>SETI's failure to make contact with ETs is raised continually by
>>its critics, even as its partisans periodically made grand
>>pronouncements about its imminent success.  If memory serves,
>>it was Frank Drake who was saying just a few years ago that
>>contact would occur before the turn of the century.  Who among us
>>is holding his or her breath waiting for that prophecy to be
>>fulfilled?

>I won't argue with this statement. But you didn't even attempt
>to answer my question, which was: Why only quote the part of
>Serge's post that supported your point of view regarding SETI
>and then leave out the part where he "hopes SETI flops"?

Why should I have to answer that question, Roger?  Serge is
entitled to his opinion.  I was expressing my opinion, not his.
I was addressing my remarks to your views, not his.

>This sort of selective quoting is exactly what I mean.
>Perpetuating the notion that Ufology's intentions are more noble
>than SETI's does nothing to speed the plow for Ufology's ideals
>and efforts.

Since virtually every notable SETIan holds that SETI's
intentions are more noble than ufology's, who can blame the
occasional ufologist for holding that ufology's intentions are
more noble than SETI's?  I guess the SETIans are better at
dishing it out than taking it.  If SETIans regard themselves as
a persecuted minority, I don't think it's persecution by
ufologists that is worrying them.

Cordially,

Jerry Clark






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   Dec > Dec 1

                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 12:06:50 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:23:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:53:02 -0500
> From: Mendoza - Peter Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
> Subject: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

> >Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 14:36:51 -0500
> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
> >Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

> With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza:

> I haven't checked with Peter Rogerson (I suspect he is not
> awake at the moment, 2:00am), but it's not impossible that
> his comment - lovingly, repeatedly, and not entirely
> atypically, quoted out of context by our mutual friend
> Jerome Clark - was derived from a piece by Steve Mizrach
> first published in the "Bulletin of Anomalous Phenomena" Vol
> 5 #3 (1994). In the interests of sanity - fat chance - I'm
> pasting this piece below.


Interesting to see that, as Peter B. informs us, I have quoted
("not entirely atypically") Peter R. out of context,  he
suggests as my source (for the weird fear-of-Hispanics abduction
theory) a piece I hadn't read till just now, when PB posted it.
Interesting, too, that Peter R., who after all wrote the damn
thing that sparked the merriment in the first place, has never
accused me of misquoting him, atypically or otherwise.  With
atypical lack  of imagination, 'owever, he did call me a "true
believer" after I'd had some fun at his expense for it in an IUR
editorial.

Cheers,

Jerry Clark






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   Dec > Dec 1

                    Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 48

From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:29:50 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:26:40 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 48

     UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 3, Number 48
November 30, 1998
Editor: Joseph Trainor

ISRAEL TRAINS BRIGADE FOR
OPERATION ABACUS

     Although not a member of NATO, Israel has begun
making military preparations for possible civil unrest
on December 31, 1999 caused by the Year 2000
computer crisis.
     Last week Israel became the third nation, after
Canada and UK, to announce military operations
related to the Y2K crisis.  The code name for these
Y2K preparations is Operation Abacus.
     According to the New York Post, "The Israeli
government has allocated $10 million to counter
possible 'millenium' attacks on Jerusalem's Temple
Mount by messianic Christians or Jewish extremists,
it was disclosed yesterday (i.e. November 23, 1998)."
     "Investigators believe some religious fanatics may
try to damage or destroy the area inside Jerusalem's
Old City that houses the Al-Aqsa and Dome of the
Rock mosques and was the site of the destroyed
second Jewish temple."
     "Some apocalyptic religious sects believe the
destruction of the mosques will lead to the rebuilding
of the Jewish temple--followed by the second coming
of Christ and the end of the world."
     "The (Israeli) government is so concerned that it
approved the hiring of 400 policemen and the
installation of security devices such as closed-
circuit cameras and sensor pads in the area,
officials said."
     "Interior Minister Avigdor Kahalani told Israeli
radio yesterday the government had received
information of a possible plot against the Temple
Mount by American religious fanatics."
     "An Israeli police source said officials are
concerned because members of a Denver-based
Christian cult had left the U.S. last month, taken
residence in the center of Jerusalem and then
disappeared."
     "U.S. law enforcement officials are cooperating
in an investigation."  (See the New York Post for
November 24, 1998, "Israel readies $10M to thwart
2000 violence" by Uri Dan, page 22.)

DAYLIGHT DISC STALKS
JETLINER IN WEST VIRGINIA

     On Wednesday, November 18, 1998, Jerry F.
and his daughter were leaving their home in
Cross Lanes, West Virginia (population 2,130)
when he spotted a strange glimmer in the sky.
     "My daughter and I were leaving our home at
approximately 8 a.m.," Jerry reported, "I leave at
this time every day to take her to school, and
then I drive to work.  As I entered the garage, I
looked up into the sky to see a jet--a (Boeing) 727--
fly overhead.  It was high up enough that it left a
very clear contrail.  Suddenly, at a very close
range above the plane, a silver/grey disc appeared.
It flew directly over the top of the plane and was
making a side-to-side swaying motion, almost like
a leaf falling.  As it moved, the sun glinted off it,
and it shone very brightly."
     "Suddenly, from the east, a jet (delta shape)
came screaming toward the UFO.  At that point,
it (the UFO--J.T.) had stopped, and the passenger
plane had already moved away.  The UFO glowed
very brightly and then shot straight up and was out
of sight in seconds.  By the time my daughter
arrived to see it, the UFO was gone."
     "I have an Air Force Intelligence background,"
he added, "and what I saw is nothing I am familiar
with."
     Cross Lanes is on Highway 62 approximately
15 miles (24 kilometers) northwest of Charleston,
the state capital.  (Email Interview)

TRAPEZOIDAL UFO SEEN IN
LAUREL, MISSISSIPPI

     On Thursday, November 19, 1998, at 7 p.m.,
student Derek D. "was driving home from college"
on Interstate Highway I-59 in Laurel, Mississippi
when he spotted a strange light in the sky.
     "A light in the sky caught my attention to my
right," Derek reported, "and I spotted what first
appeared to be an airplane.crossing my view to
the left.  As I went through a slow curve, I watched
the plane, hoping to catch a glimpse of what kind
it was.  Strangely, after a few minutes, it appeared
to hover over the local Waffle House.  It then began
reversing course.  By now I had noticed a series of
bright blue lights on the underside of the craft, which
partially illuminated the underside.  Instantly I pulled
my car off to the side to watch."
     "What I saw was best described as a trapezoid
shape, with a rectangle poking out of the left (front)
side.  It had red and white lights around the perimeter
at odd intervals, and the blue lights in the center of
the underside.  It was enormous.  I estimated the
size to be comparable to a football field.  I don't
believe this was a blimp, but it may have been some
bomber plane configuration that I am not familiar with.
Whatever it was, it was visible and agile but without
the 'lightspeed' blinding acceleration."
     Laurel (population 18,827) is on Interstate Highway
I-59 approximately 77 miles (123 kilometers) southeast
of Jackson, the state capital.  (Many thanks to
J. Michael of Mississippi UFO Files for this report.)

UFOs ACTIVE ALL AROUND
COLORADO'S BLANCA PEAK

     On Saturday, November 14, 1998, at 9:15 a.m.,
June Walkley was returning home to Blanca, Colorado
(population 140), "returning from dropping off her
relatives," when she spotted something unusual
over the Smith Reservoir, west of town.
     "While driving south on (County) Road 106," Ms.
Walkley "spotted a great big silver V 'hovering over the
Smith Reservoir.'  She stopped the car and watched
for around a minute."
     She estimated that the UFO "was at least 10 miles
(16 kilometers) away to the east and estimated its size
as a quarter held at arm's length.  After watching for a
minute, the object appeared to go straight up and out
of sight."
     On Tuesday, November 17, 1998, a realtive of June
Walkley and her husband, Virgil, whom she described
to author/investigator Christopher O'Brien as "a strong
skeptic," said he "witnessed three strange objects
hovering over the San Juan Mountains near Greenie
Ridge.  The objects appeared to be reflecting the setting
sun and were 'sitting still.'  The the witness 'was amazed'
when the objects disappeared."
     On Thursday, November 19, 1998, at 11:15 p.m., "an
ex-career officer of the U.S. Air Force" telephoned O'Brien
"to report 'a multi-colored light yo-yoing up and down--like
on a string.'  He summoned two other witnesses, who
"observed the strange light.  One witness reported that
the light stayed there for 'almost an hour...before blinking
out.'"  (Many thanks to Christopher O'Brien, author of
THE MYSTERIOUS VALLEY) for these reports.)

TWO UFOs SEEN IN SINGAPORE
DURING LEONID METEOR STORM

     On Wednesday, November 18, 1998, at 3:25 a.m.,
Simon T.C.M. and his sister, Joanna T.A.M., were
standing in an open field on Hill View Avenue in the
island city-nation of Singapore, watching the Leonid
meteor shower.
     "I and my sister had been watching the meteor
storm since 2 a.m.," Simon reported, "and I was lucky
enough only to see three very bright and fast needle-
like meteor showers.  Then my sister and I saw the
strange meteor.  It stayed in the sky for at least
four seconds, and it was shining brightly and seemed
to be dropping slowly downward.  It was dark orange
in colour and round in shape.  It disappeared before
I could raise my binoculars to get a clear look."
     "It is very strange because all the other meteor
showers were under two seconds.  And the orange light
glided (east) to where the meteors came from.  It also
did not shine brightly like the others and disappeared
into the dark."
     Elsewhere in Singapore, witnesses spotted a
luminous gray sphere.  Rennie H. reported, "My wife
and son and myself were at East Coast Beach when
at about 3:15 a.m. or so, we witnessed a not-too-bright
dull gray object moving from the left to the right in a
straight line for a long period.  The position as we saw
it was...first at the horizon (in the southwest) toward
(Palau) Batam (island) and then the object was
between the top of one's head and the horizon.  This
happened after two meteor showers and about five
minutes before a short meteor shower began."
(Email Interviews)

MOTORISTS SPOT UFOs
IN DEVON, UK

     On Monday, November 16, 1998, at 6:35 a.m.,
"Father and son Paul and Lee Holloway of Rose
Cottage, Bradworthy (Devon) spotted the lights
while driving toward Bideford at 6:35 a.m."
     "'I saw something flashing in the sky like an
aeroplane,' Lee said, 'It moved from one direction
to the other.  We kept on driving.  Then from behind
us there was a massive flash of light."
     Lee "compared the flash to lightning, but said it
was several times brighter, lasting five or six seconds.
>From just behind the car, the light went directly
over them before disappearing."
     "British UFO Research Association regional
investigator Dave Cooper described the event as a
UFO sighting and added, 'Lee is basically on the
classic encounter level of eyewitnesses.  It's an
encounter of the second kind--an object--rather
than alien beings.'"
     "Pauline Smith witnessed a phenomenon while
driving along the North Devon link road between
South Molton and Tiverton," about 150 miles
(240 kilometers) west of London.
     "'I was driving up the link road about 6:15 a.m.
and it blinked for about half an hour.  I saw two
objects in the sky about 5,000 feet (1,515 meters)
up,'" Ms. Smith said.
     "'They were equidistant from the moon, and I
think they both had reduced flashing lights.  They
were both keeping up with each other.  They
disappeared and came back.  I think I saw one
of them drop vertically, but I couldn't swear ot it,'"
said Ms. Smith, who lives at Sunnyside, Woolsery,
Devon.  (See the North Devon Journal for
November 20, 1998, "UFO sightings 'extraordinary,'"
page 1.)

MORE UFO SIGHTINGS ON
THE M-1 NEAR SHEFFIELD

     On Sunday, November 22, 1998, at 8:05 p.m.,
a member of UK's Phenomenon Research
Association (PRA) was "motoring in a car along
the M-1 (motorway)" when he spotted "a large
black flying triangle hovering, nose down, about
a quarter-mile off the motorway just north of the
M-1/M18 intersecting junction, Junction 22."
     "The witness described the FT as huge with
numerous lights and appeared to be made up of a
girder-like structure.  He was unable to stop, but
noticed that other drivers had pulled onto the 'hard
shoulder' (breakdown lane in the USA-J.T.) to look
at the FT craft."
     "A later report from a driver coming off the M-1
and heading toward the Sheffield area (adjacent to
the M-1/M18 junction) reported a roaring sound in
the sky at about 2005 (8:05 p.m.--J.T.), and he also
noted that he does not believe it was an aircraft
noise."  (Many thanks to Oscar Fowler of PRA
and Steve Wilson Sr. for this report.)

UFOs SEEN IN ALICE SPRINGS
AND AROUND BRISBANE

     On Monday, November 8, 1998, at 2:30 a.m.,
Ms. M. Harvey arose from bed at her home in
Alice Springs, Northern Territory, Australia
"and went outside where she sighted a bright
white light to the north."
     Ms. Harvey told Australian ufologist Keith
Douglass that "I saw what appeared to be a
bright silver ball.  I watched it for around one
hour.  There was no noise.  It was nearly over
my head at one stage.  Then it went straight up
and disappeared out of sight."
     On Saturday, November 14, 1998, at
7:40 p.m., two witnesses at Breakfast Creek
near Hamilton Road in Brisbane saw "two
bright lights side by side, white in colour,  the
size of a five-cent piece at arm's length.  One
light appeared to cross over the other, and
then both disappeared."
     On Wednesday, November 18, 1998, at
3:35 a.m., Anthony Tinnis was driving on the
Bruce Highway in Strathpine, Queensland,
near Brisbane, "going to work, when I saw an
object.  Colour, gun-metal gray and flourescent
blue, shaped like a round bowl with a rime
around it."
     Tinnis said, "I could see it very clearly, and
it was very low, about a half-mile (2,600 feet--J.T.)
off the ground.  It was travelling on a straight line
(west) toward Toowoomba.  I saw it for 2.5 to 3
seconds.  I watched a bluish gas flame two
meters (6.6 feet) long" emerge from the object.
     Tinnis added that he "is a Christian and does
not believe in UFOs."  (Many thanks to Diane
Harrison of UFO Network Australasia and Robert
Frola of UFO Investigation Centre, Queensland
for these reports.)

UFO SIGHTED BY A COUPLE
IN NIJMEGEN, NETHERLANDS

     On Wednesday, November 25, 1998, at 9:45 p.m.,
a couple "was walking the dog" in Nijmegen, a large
city in the Netherlands when they spotted a UFO.
     "They were watching the sky for a short time
when they saw what looked like a star getting
brighter and brighter.  The light was bluish-white
in colour."  The couple described the UFO as
"somewhat eye-shaped" or elliptical in structure.
     "It then moved energetically up and down for a
short time before it shot off in the night once again."
The object hovered over the southwest section of
Nijmegen, and the condition of the sky was "cloudy
but with a lot of clear spots."
     Nijmegen is on the river Rhine approximately
140 kilometers (84 miles) southeast of Amsterdam.
The city was the site of a ferocious World War II
battle back in September 1944.  (Many thanks to
Andy Denne of A.U.R.A. for this report.)

UFO SQUADRON SIGHTED
NEAR RAVENNA, ITALY

     On Wednesday, November 18, 1998, several
residents of Conselice, a town near Ravenna, an
Italian city on the Adriatic Sea, climbed a local
hill to watch the Leonid meteor shower.
     Ravenna is 165 kilometers (103 miles)
north of Rome.
     Around 9:30 p.m., "three youths who were
waiting to see the Leonid meteor shower observed
a group of spheres that travelled from north to south.
The spheres employed several minutes to traverse
the vault of sky."  (See the Italian newspaper
Corriere di Ravenna for November 21, 1998.  Grazie
a Mirko Dalmonte e Edoardo Russo di Centro
Italiano di Studi Ufologici, CISU, per questo rapporto.)

LUMINOUS UFO SPOTTED
IN SLOVENIA

     On Thursday, October 29, 1998, at 7:30 a.m.,
Radio Slovenija VAL 202 (98.9 FM) reported a
UFO sighting at Ljubljanska Barje, a marshland
not far from Ljubljana, the capital of Slovenia.
     According to the commentator, a "strange
glowing object" was seen hovering over the
marshes.  "The commentator said the station had
dispatched a news crew to film the object.  The
object was reported to have been silver and shone
very brightly."
     On Sunday, November 1, 1998, two men in
the same area "saw a bright ball of fire disappearing
behind a hill.  They say that they saw it for only a
glimpse but it was almost twice the size of the
moon."
     Slovenia is a small nation in the Balkans,
east of Italy and south of Austria.  (Many thanks
to Guiliano Marinkovic for this news story.)

WEIRD BROWN GOOP FALLS
ON TWO MICHIGAN HOMES

    In the second strange incident of its kind this
year, weird brown goop fell from the sky and
splattered two homes in Westland, Michigan
(population 84,724), a suburb just west of Detroit.
     The first "goop fall" took place near York,
Pennsylvania early last spring.
     "One minute Ernestine Stange's garage and
driveway were white.  The next, they were covered
with thousands of textured brown droppings."
     "Based on the number, the color of the droppings
and the fact that they were on the rooftop, Stange
assumed the droppings that fell last Tuesday
(November 16, 1998) in Westland had been feces
dumped from a plane."
     "She made dozens of phone calls--to (Detroit
Metro) airport officials, county health officials and
the Michigan Department of Agriculture.  On
Thursday (November 18), an environmental
specialist took samples."
     "The verdict after tests--it's not feces, but
beyond that, it remains a mystery."
     "Metro Airport spokesman Leon Singer said,
'I can't tell you what it is.  But I can tell you what
it wasn't, and it wasn't human waste.'"
     "'I'm worried about getting the mess cleaned
up,' Stange said Monday (November 22), as she
looked out her sliding glass door at her filthy garage.
'We've had several jokes about it.  'I've heard about
it hitting the fan, but the garage?'  'You talk about
sitting in a pile of it.'  That kind of thing.  But I'm
really afraid of disease and everything else.  I'm
worried about my relatives and what might be in that
stuff.  I guess if it wasn't my house, I'd also find it
funny.'"
     "Stange's neighbor Mariusz Boguszewski said
he doesn't think the residue is funny, either."
     "'I was just going to let it go as an angry flock of
birds, but my neighbor wants to investigate it.  And
they've got my curiosity up," he said Monday before
the tests were completed."
     "Stange said she doesn't think birds could make
such a mess.  'They would've have to have had a
convention right above my house and have everyone
go at once.'"
     Westland is on Ford Road about 18 miles
(29 kilometers) west of Detroit.  (See the newspaper
Detroit Free Press for November 24, 1998, "From a
bird?  A plane?  Mystery muck rains on roofs" by
Beth Kronel.  Many thanks to Gerry Lovell of Far
Shores for forwarding the newspaper article.)
(Editor's Comment:  Another fall of brown goop!
Were he alive at this hour, no doubt Charles Fort
would be turning cartwheels of sheer joy.)

from the UFO Files...

1909: LUMINOUS RED UFO
          SEEN BY HUNDREDS
          IN MASSACHUSETTS

     During the next month, UFO Roundup will be
offering several of the UFO sightings reported in
local New England newspapers during the
memorable "airship" flap of 1909.
     To briefly recap, after UFOs were sighted
hovering over the cities of Marlboro and Worcester,
Massachusetts December 16, 1909, a local
businessman, Wallace J. Tillinghast, stepped
forward and claimed to have invented "a new
aeroplane" in secret and flown to New York
City on several occasions.
     Yet the UFOs kept up their nightly flights,
appearing on evenings when Tillinghast was
seen at his Worcester home or while giving
interviews to the Boston newspapers.  Here
is one such incident:
     On December 22, 1909, "while the Worcester
UFO was making its celebrated flight to Spencer
and Marlboro and back, another 'mystery light'
was active up north in the Montachusett region,
putting on a show for the inhabitants of
Leominster."
     "A red light was spotted over Monument
Square in downtown Leominster by several
witnesses, including a reporter for the
Leominster Enterprise.  This object was
stationary."
     "Elsewhere in town, 'George Pratt,
employed by the Upham Clothing Store, says
that as he alighted from a (trolley) car at
Nelson Street Wednesday night on his way
to supper, he saw the 'red light' but would not
say that it was a flying ship, only that it
appeared 'six times as large as a star.'  He
said he went to George A. Allen's to tell him
about it.'"
     "'Mr. Allen was not at home, but Pratt says
Mrs. Allen came out and she too saw the
peculiar light.  Pratt walked home and told his
father, the latter going to the top of Nelson
Street Hill where he says he was able to pick
out the luminous orb from among the stars.
Mr. Pratt says the light went (south) in the
direction of Princeton (Mass.)."  (See the
Leominster, Mass. Enterprise for December
23, 1909.  See also The New England Airship
Invasion of 1909 by Joseph Trainor, FORTEAN
STUDIES, Volume 1, John Brown Publishing Ltd.,
1994, page 64.)

     Today is the birthday of American novelist
and humorist Samuel Langhorne Clemens,
better known as Mark Twain.  Clemens was
born November 30, 1835, during a flyby of
Halley's Comet.  He passed away in Hartford,
Connecticut on April 21, 1910, during the
comet's return appearance.  Comets held a
strange fascination for Clemens.  One of his
last short stories, "Captain Stormfield's Trip to
Heaven," deals with both comets and "blue-
skinned aliens."  Strangely enough, this year's
anniversary of Clemens's birth sees a new
comet at magnitude 8 crossing the sky.

     Join us next week for more saucer news from
around the planet, brought to you by "the paper
that goes home--UFO Roundup."  See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1998 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
news items from UFO Roundup on their websites
or in newsgroups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date
of issue in which the item first appeared.





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   Dec > Dec 1

                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: John <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:56:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:30:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:53:02 -0500
>From: Mendoza - Peter Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 14:36:51 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza:


>John--

>I appreciate the irony whereby you, as a Puerto Rican,
>consider yourself to be an abductee, and are at the same
>time under the impression that someone has said that this is
>because you are, in effect, afraid of being immigrated by
>yourself. As my computer tells me from time to time, you
>can't complete that operation because "the folder 'Dago'
>cannot be moved into itself".

(LMAO!) Geez, it's good to see that you haven't been swallowed
up in the pit while chasing ponies in the dark! <G> Thanx for
the Mizrach material. I was unaware of it. Will give it a read.

BTW, can't help poking your pointed stick into Jerry Clark's
cave entrance can you! <VBG> But, I must admit that some of the
better debates (informative) that have come out of this list in
recent past is when you and Jerry are having a go at it! :-D I
figure if you're messing with Jerry you're either bored half to
death or in between projects! Some truth to that I'm sure. <G>

Peace mi amigo,

Juan Velez De Rodriguez, Don't (think) I am, I (know) I am!



________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________





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   Dec > Dec 1

                  Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:07:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:35:24 -0500
Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:27:01 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 14:22:33 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 18:37:08 -0500
>>Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

<snip>

>Incredibly, Serge now claims neutrality by writing:

>>Hold your horses Roger, and don't make this a personal debate.

>Let's get some things straight, wise guy...


Roger,

I claim sanity.

In a previous post, you proposed the following bet:

>>You make a pretty strong accusation. Please give us names of any
>>SETI supporters that laugh at terrestrial based UFO research. My
>>money is on the bet that you can't. In fact, I'd go so far as to
>>say that everyone I know that supports SETI also supports the
>>investigation of UFO sightings and encounters.

My response proved the following:

1. You had your facts all wrong.  SETI does _not_ support
investigation of UFO sightings and encounters.

2. Quite to the _contrary_, SETI advocates the same dumb silly
attitude towards UFO mainstream science has advocated for the
past 50 years.

3. My attitude towards SETI is thus not based on some errand
unconfirmed impressions, but on the knowledge of established
facts.

4. This SETI thread has been going for some time now and I
believe I am the only person to have furnished verifiable facts.

I have also established, in answering quite precisely your bet,
that your assumptions about SETI are wrong, based on untrue
information, on unreality, on falsehood.  Not that you are the
originator of such discrepancies with reality, but a victim.

Your perception of SETI is thus flawed.

Your preconceived ideas about SETI had you called me stupid and
a couple other names - and with other subscribers too: bad
education.  This is understandable since you were arguably
enough ignorant of the facts and since SETI is such a palatable
NASAian space human adventure - Jesus Christ.  I am thus
surprised that, confronted with reality, you STILL evidently
think I am some stupid asshole.

My:

>>>Any 30 years $100-million flopped project supported by
>>>mainstream science on the hypothesis of extra-terrestrial life
>>>must be questioned by people involved in a 50 years $0.00
>>>research who came up with evidence - people who are still
>>>laughed at by the same SOBs who support the fore-mentioned
>>>project.

has been, _in_some_way_, recognized for its merits (eh?) and an
open-minded SETI seriously challenged (among others) by: Doc
Barry Mauthority@webtv.net>, Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>,
Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>, Jerome Clark
<jkclark@frontiernet.net>, Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>,
Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>.

>Let's get some things straight, wise guy...

I proved you wrong, I got the things straight, you didn't
respect your bet, and I am the "wise guy"?

<snip>

>You're the only Ufologist on record that hopes contact is NOT
>achieved unless it's by the "right" group of people; i.e.
>Ufologists. It's THAT kind of logic which has deliberately and
>malevolently kept ufology in a ghetto; not the existence of
>SETI.

>Drop out of competition mode, Serge.

I am the _only_ ufologist on record with that attitude, and thus
the _only_ ufologist with that kind of logic.  If I follow your
logic, then I am responsible for _all_ ufology being deliberately
and malevolently kept in a ghetto?  I am responsible for ufology
not reaching the promised land? I plead guilty.  The joke is on
you, Roger, I am _not_ a ufologist.

Please specify the mode you are in, sir.

<snip>

>#1) I'm a SETI supporter and I don't much care for being called
>an SOB.

You were a SETI supporter based on the wrong assumption that
SETI people are on the side of ufologists.  They are not.
Worse: they are _against_ ufology.  Did you follow the threads?

>So don't hand me this crap about not making this
>personal, okay?

Are you a baseball fan, Roger?  A football fan?  A what fan?
Take your pick.  Every time I watch a game, I root for my team -
obviously.  I don't particularly enjoy it when the Atlanta
Braves beat my team 7-0 with Maddux on their mound and Maddux on
our mound.  I hate their guts.  That Maddux SOB really pisses me
off: give every pitcher the same plate and we'll see.

I'd take a beer with Maddux any time.

>#2) If SETI or any group succeeds then any credibility will be well
>earned.

>#3) If you really feel that 30 years is too damn long for the money
>they've spent, then the sooner contact is made, the better. Right?

Credibility has to do with authenticity, liability and truth.  I
am afraid SETI has started on the wrong track with their
attitude towards ufology: hostile, demagogic, refusing to
recognize 50 years of evidence, side-tracking the people
involved in the field.

This is wrong-doing.  We are not talking only of Sons of Bitches
here but of Standard Organized Bullshit, which is what stupidity
is all about.

I hope they choke.  Humanity deserves better than a lie.

If that makes me a fool, let me paraphrase No. 6:

Better a fool than a rat.

Serge Salvaille







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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:48:37 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:39:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:40:48 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 98 13:13:03 PST
>>Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:36:24 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists

<snip>

>>In any event, unless you can produce clear and specific evidence
>>(or even, for that matter, merely intriguing and suggestive
>>evidence) that Americans everywhere deeply fear Hispanic
>>immigration and therefore suffer vivid fantasies about abduction
>>by decidedly non-Hispanic extraterrestrials, it simply does not
>>matter what you believe or refuse to believe.

Whoa, now hold on a minute Mr Clark. Please point out _exactly_
where I said "Americans everywhere deeply fear Hispanic
immigration"

>I agree 100%, Jerry.

>As someone that lives in Houston, I have many friends that are
>Hispanic. This sort of "Assume-O-Science" is both annoying and
>degrading to all Americans.

I'm puzzled as to why the phrase "concern over alien
immigration" is considered "degrading" to Americans, or why it
should need an apology. This is typical of so much of the
reaction to psychosocial arguments (and, in fairness, most other
arguments) on the Internet. One phrase, quoted from repost to
repost, is wrenched out of context - much like Jerry Clark's
continued implication that Peter Rogerson has developed an
elaborate theory that *all* abductees live in fear of being
invaded by hoards of Hispanics, Vietnamese, Haitians, Kosovans
or whatever - and denounced for what the reader thought it
_should_ have said.

I am sure that Mr Evans has Hispanic friends. I'm sure he is a
sociable fellow and has friends of many races and nationalities.
Perhaps he even has English friends - or is that taking
tolerance too far? It is however perfectly possible to have
friends of a variety of nationalities and still be concerned
about issues like immigration and race relations. "Concern",
note, not gut-wrenching fear. If you are going to respond to my
suggestions please use my actual words, and not what Jerry Clark
thinks I said!


--
J. Rimmer





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:53:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:42:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 98 14:38:51 PST

>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:02:33 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>>Date: Sat, 28 Nov 98 11:20:40 PST

>>>First of all the population of the United States is not 20%
>>>African-American; it's about half that.

>>I though that it was significantly more than 10% but I don't
>>have the figures at my fingertips so take your word for it

>If memory serves, the most recent population statistics
>put the African-American population at around 12%.

>>>Second, there are black
>>>abductees, as Budd Hopkins and others have been telling us
>>>forever. (Years ago Budd even had a letter published in the NY
>>>Times Book Review on nonwhite abductees he'd worked with, after
>>>a reviewer of Missing Time expressed the mistaken view that all
>>>of Hopkins's abductees were white.) Third, no one has kept
>>>statistics.  Fourth, investigators writing about specific
>>>abductees may not even be mentioning their racial backgrounds
>>>(as, for example, Hopkins does not), just as mainstream media
>>>accounts in this country (I don't know about Britain) do not
>>>mention somebody's racial background unless it is crucial to the
>>>story, for fear of being accused of bringing in irrelevant
>>>detail which some could construe as ultimately racist in
>>>motivation.

>>If Hopkins was having to refute claims that the abduction
>>experience was an exclusively white phenomenon ten years ago
>>surely the race of abductees _is_ relevant and researchers
>>should record this, after all we expect a lot of other
>>information about the people concerned

>The New York Times Book Review writer was making the same error
>it seems to me you're making: that because Hopkins did not
>mention the racial backgrounds of specific abductees, it was
>assumed they were white.  Hopkins had to write the magazine to
>correct the error.

>>>Fifth, as for the "psychosocial" element, other
>>>list contributors have pointed to all sorts of cultural reasons
>>>why black abductees might be hesitant to report experiences to
>>>overwhelmingly white ufologists (just as black crime victims
>>>tend to under-report their experiences to largely white police
>>>forces).  I assume, alas, that this is not the sort of
>>>"psychosocial" aspect to which our friend is here alluding.  I
>>>fear that he's going for something far more dramatic.

>>Of course it's psychosocial. It's also pretty psychosocial as to
>>just why the overwhelming majority of ufologists are white. If
>>abductions _were_ happening as frequently amongst the black
>>community as they are amongst the white I'd expect rather _more_
>>black ufologists who would be more accessible to black
>>experiencers.

>Why?

Why not? Aren't Black people going to be just as worried and
upset about being abducted as White people? Aren't they going to
be just as anxious to find out what's happening to them? And if
they are understandably reluctant to take these fears to a
self-selected group of White abductionists, why shouldn't they
confide in people within their own communities whom they can
trust?

--
J. Rimmer





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   Dec > Dec 1

                  Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:06:50 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:30:22 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia


>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 17:50:08 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia

>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:27:00 -0800
>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia

>Larry, you wrote:

>>Perhaps unfairly, I wish to take a snippet out of the good
>>message below, simply to make a small point.

>Not unfair at all. Any message posted with the knowledge that
>it may be read by many and commented upon is fair game.

>>>Stated he is a Christian and does not believe in UFOs, but I was
>>>travelling down the Bruce HWY to the Strathpine exit going to
>>>work when I saw an object, Colour, gun metal gray and..

>>Did you catch that?

>Yes, I caught it, and somehow I knew it wouldn't get by you unscathed.

>>Tony Tinnis "Is a Christian and doesn't believe in UFOs.."

>>As a child, I heard statements like that, they usually ran
>>something like :

>>" Well, I'm a Christian and I don't hold up gas stations."

>>- or -

>>"I'm a Christian and I don't need a Ouija board to know that
>>Christ is coming back."

>>Do you catch my drift? A good Christian does not see or believe
>>in UFOs. That is exactly the mindset I objected to on some
>>earlier post.

>Would you object to that mindset if it were a Buddhist, or
>someone of Islamic persuasion? What is difficult to accept about
>someone interpreting their own religion as precluding
>extraterrestrial life?

Its not hard to see that happening at all. I just think that it
is unfortunate. I pulled that snippet out as an example of
people doing just that, i.e. finding some needless religious
reason to exclude extraterrestrial intelligence and UFOs in
particular.

My point exactly.


>Again, I suggest you lack the ability to see through the eyes of
>others. You fail to see the threat that such a possibility represents
>to their beliefs.

Please see directly above.

>Imagine, Christians might have to share their God!

>Humans might not be the only creatures in the universe to receive

>the attentions of the Almighty.

Frightening indeed for many people!

>I happen to be a Christian, but I consider God quite capable of
>creating an infinite variety of life in the universe. I place no
>limits on his abilities, as others would seek to do. However, I
>wouldn't insult someone with differing religious interpretations.

>Why do you?

I don't see how I insulted anyone with this thread..

My initial point was that some religious leaders have quite
sensibly come out embracing the possibility of intelligent ET
life.

Later, I contrasted this with less fortunate positions taken in
the past.

>Do you have some underlying beef with religion in general, or
>Christianity in particular?

No more or less than any other ex-Catholic I suppose.

I do agree that UFOs and religions are separate matters, and
should be considered as such;  that there should be no conflict
between them.

>Greg

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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   Dec > Dec 1

                      Re: When SETI Gets An ET Signal!

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:08:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:33:21 -0500
Subject: Re: When SETI Gets An ET Signal!


>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 03:05:05 +0100
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jean van Gemert <jeanvg@dds.nl>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: When SETI Gets An ET Signal!

>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:34:24 -0600
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: When SETI Gets An ET Signal!

>>To the best of my knowledge, Adamski's photos and films have not
>>been proven to be fakes, regardless of what the Debunkers would
>>have you believe.

>Err... Mike, surely you're _not_ serious here?

>You are serious?

>Oh boy...

Jean,

You may be surprised where some of the rabbit holes in the UFO
business lead. To explore this one look into who spoke in the
defense of Adamski when he was sued for mail fraud.

Also look at the exact reference for Ruppelt's opinion on
Adamski's photos in 'The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects'.
There is more here than meets the eye, read Ruppelt's wording
very, very carefully.  Also consider the disparity in the
objects have been used to explain what is in his pictures.


Gary







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   Dec > Dec 1

                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:16:54 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:36:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 18:36:17 -0500

>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 09:43:19 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>In the meantime a number of other people wrote pointing out that
>>there _were_ other black abductees and also offering suggestions
>>as to why black people may be more reluctant to report abduction
>>experiences to predominantly white UFO organisations.

>>I accept these arguements - they are after all sociological! -
>>but I was rather surprised that amongst the alleged thousands of
>>abductees there have been over the past twenty years the only
>>name anyone could come up with was Barney Hill.

>Very few abductees let their names be known. How many names of
>abductees of any race could anyone come up with?

>From the index of Peter Brooksmith's excellent "Alien
Abductions" which just happens, as always, to be at my right
hand: Andreasson, Avis, "Cortile", da Silva, Davis, Hansen,
Harrison, Hathaway, Hickson, Higdon, Hodges,  Horton, oh, c'mon,
this is getting boring...

>I've met black abductees at Budd Hopkins's support group meetings. If
>anyone wants a name, I distinctly remember one who asked me, for
>journalistic purposes, to call her "Renee," though that's not even her
>real first name.

<snip>

>>Well, yes, maybe the aliens are only abducting white people.
>>Shouldn't the abductionists now be looking at this issue and
>>trying to discover the reason - it would seem a pretty vital
>>factor in abduction research. At least the psychosocial brigade
>>have got a suggestion to make - that abductions are a culturally
>>related phenomenon which is more a part of Anglo-Saxon and
>>Eurocentric culture than it is Afro-American. And despite the
>>sneers elsewhere on this list (Jerry, I mean you) I still refuse
>>to believe that there is *no* connection whatsoever between the
>>current abduction panic in the USA and concern over "alien"
>>immigration. The film "Alien Nation" a couple of years ago
>>hinted at some of the underlying fears. And the general
>>principle "they're coming here to breed with our women": where
>>have I heard that before?

>I promise you, John....as soon as those of us involved in
>abduction work figure out why the abductors are here, what their
>sinister or benevolent plans are (take your choice), how their
>technology works, what kind of ice cream they like, and lots of
>other currently unknowable little details, we'll get to work on
>their racial preferences.

If there is some some sort of racial bias in the selection of
abductees by the Greys - and one or two posters here have said
they couldn't rule it out - it's curious that you should find it
less important than what sort of ice-cream the aliens prefer.
Anyway, we know that already don't we... strawberry. > >More
seriously, I concur with Jerry Clark on this alleged >hysteria
about (a) abductions and (b) Hispanic immigration -- >where is
it? I know that anti-immigrant legislation has been >passed here
and there (along with restrictions on bilingual >education), but
I'd put that in the same category as the current >trend away
from affirmative action. The sentiments involved >aren't just
aimed at Hispanics.

Where, where, where did I mention anything about "hysteria" over
Hispanic immigration? I said "concern" and the legislation (and
referenda) you mention does indicate "concern". I am getting a
bit tired of telling people to respond to what I actually write,
not what Jerry Clark thinks I should have written.

>But on the other hand there's more and more acceptance -- and
>celebration -- of the growing Hispanic population in America.
>Talk with people in the record business, for instance, and
>you'll hear (as I did once again last night, talking to Aretha
>Franklin's very white and very Jewish publicist) about how
>exciting the Hispanic market is. Not to mention the fascinating
>crossover possibilities in marketing Spanish-speaking singers to
>an Anglo audience. To talk about an anti-immigrant hysteria
>sweeping America is just nonsense.

Jolly good, and black people enjoy classical music, and WASPS
enjoy salsa, and I like klezmer. What is this supposed to prove?
Yes, talk about anti-immigrant hysteria sweeping America is
nonsense. But it's not _me_ that's saying it! (Please excuse the
shouting, but I am getting really p****d off with being
constantly misquoted.) >

--
John Rimmer





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:31:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:42:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:53:02 -0500
>From: Mendoza - Peter Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

Peter, thanks so much for trying to bring some sanity into the
discussion of abductions and fear of earthly aliens -- and for
supplying the full text of the study that might be the basis for
the discussion.

That said, the text you submitted is a crock of spit,
infuriatingly smug, dumb, ignorant, and superficial, and
entirely unworthy of your attention.

The writer depends on two rhetorical methods, both manipulative
and flagrantly illogical. His methods are:

        -- linking things without demonstrating any
relationship, simply by putting them together in a sentence or
paragraph, and using the word "and"

        -- supporting his arguments with random anecdotal
"evidence," transparently selected to prove his point, while
examples that might refute him are left unmentioned.

Here's an example of method two:

>Some
>complex psychological phenomenon - perhaps growing anxiety
>over the impersonality of new fertility techniques or
>abortion - may be what is being 'projected' here. However, I
>suspect it is linked to another unconscious anxiety - the
>growing unease that people are beginning to feel over the
>intersection of the mechanical and the human, (Just look at
>that classic movie Demon Seed  , where a computer rapes and
>impregnates a woman, giving birth to a 'cyborg' baby.)

Or just look at the classic TV series "The Six Million-Dollar
Man," where a man is given mechanical limbs and eyes, and gets
to be both happy and a hero. See how easy it is to make up
evidence for anything you want to prove? Peter, you should,
quite frankly, be ashamed of yourself for taking this garbage
seriously. (And you know..."Demon Seed" is not any kind of
classic movie, whereas the "Six Million Dollar Man" is
definitely classic TV, and even spawned its "Bionic Woman"
spinoff."

Example of method one:

>That UFO abductions have something to do with race fear
>appears to be fairly plain. The U.S. is currently dealing
>with the fact that its white majority is decreasing... thus
>provoking all the debates about "multiculturalism." White
>supremacists take to the talkshow airwaves every day to
>proclaim the dangers of "race betrayal" by those who
>"miscegnate" and "pollute" the race. And Budd Hopkins tells
>us that women - the majority of whom are white and WASP,
>heartland, middle-America types - are being carried off by
>aliens to achieve a "hybridization" of them and us...

Absolutely no link between Budd Hopkins and the rest of this
paragraph has been demonstrated. He's just thrown in there, as
if merely stating a connection made the connection real. The
word "and" occupies the space that ought to be filled with
evidence and reason.

Some other weaknesses of this feeble excuse for an essay:

>In the 1990s, we seem to be confronting two mysterious
>parallel social tremors. Lest anyone think that the UFO
>abduction panic has been driven into hiding by accusations
>of overeager hypnotists implanting false memories, they need
>only to turn to the recent Roper Poll (admittedly extremely
>flawed in its design) to see that the numbers of people
>believing themselves to be abductees is growing
>exponentially. The other social tremor which some people
>seem to think has vanished from our 'enlightened' and
>'colorblind' society is a continuing anxiety over
>interracial marriage and 'cross-breeding' of the races.

The Roper Poll didn't measure how many people believed
themselves to be abductees. It tried to measure how many people
have experiences that suggest they might be abductees whether
they know it or not. That's a very different story.

And....abduction "panic"? I've addressed this before. There's no
such thing. Prove to me it exists, Peter. Show me abduction
fears expressed....oh, on the evening news, let's say. The
writer of this drivel goes on to make connections between fears
of witches and fears of white slavery in earlier eras. Well,
witches were burned in public by church and state authorities.
Do we see any similar interest in abductions by church and state
authorities now? Do we see mobs in the street, demanding
protection from the aliens. Give me a break.

>As many people know, it is often the case that what the
>conscious mind claims it has integrated and accepted may
>still provoke unconscious hostility. Hence movies like
>Jungle Fever  which remind us just how close precarious
>feelings about interracial dating are to some social fault
>line.

Ah, yes, that widely accepted, uncontroversial movie "Jungle
Fever," cited by everyone as an example of truth on racial
issues. As I recall, it was no such thing, and was in fact
widely viewed as unconvincing. Oh, but I forgot....that was our
conscious minds refusing to acknowledge our unconscious
hostility to interracial romance. Sorry.

>Recently, a Southern principal tried to cancel a high
>school prom because of what he perceived to be 'widespread'
>interracial dating, and told an interracial child that she
>was a 'mistake' that her parents 'never should have had.' In
>both North and South (just look at Bensonhurst), white
>accusations still flow like a torrent whenever a black man
>is seen coming too close to a white woman.

One movie and one anecdote don't add up to a "torrent." Nor do
they prove that the torrent flows "whenever" -- which means
every single time -- a black man comes too close to a white
woman. By the way, I've written about this problem in the opera
world, where there are many black female stars, and virtually no
black men. African-Americans in classical music see this as an
expression of precisely the fear this writer is talking about,
and they're probably right. Still, that doesn't amount to a
"torrent" that flows "every single time," etc., etc., etc.,
etc., etc. That there's disquiet on the subject can't be argued.
But that it's a major social panic, one of the key
psycho-historical forces of our era -- that's a whole other
story, and very much remains to be proved.

>In the U.S., it is quite clear that
>(unlike Latin America) race is deeply polarizing and
>dichotomous. No intermediate shades or gradations are
>permitted. Either you're white, or you're not. If you've got
>even a drop of "black blood" (though, of course, all blood
>is red), then you're black, at least according to the laws
>in many Southern states. As one Southerner once pointed out,
>"If you take white paint, and mix in just a tiny drop of
>black, it's not white anymore..."

An old, old story. Meanwhile, polls show that among younger
people, taste in movies and TV moves along age lines, with no
regard to race. I could, using our silly writer's preferred mode
of argument, now act as if I'd proved that America's racial
problems were considerably eased. The truth is much more
complex, but our writer sees (sorry for the pun) only black and
white.

>The UFO abduction researcher James Pontolillo has made a
>great contribution to the literature in his Demons, Doctors,
>and Aliens, released by RDM Publications. Pontolillo points
>out the connections between the UFO abduction panic and two
>earlier episodes - the "witch craze" in Europe from the
>15th-18th centuries, and the "white slavery" panic in the
>late 19th and early 20th. I find it interesting that the
>central factor in both panics was concern over the control
>of women's reproduction and the fear that they were mating
>with 'outsiders' of some kind. Many nationalist writers have
>often called women the "guardians of the race" - i.e. it is
>their task to reproduce the nation, physically and
>culturally.

_The_ central concern? I've spent a lot of time among abductees
and abduction researchers, and never seen this even discussed
all that much. Of course, it's highly personal, and something
that, understandably, women might not like to talk about openly.
However -- and abductees on the list might want to corroborate
what I'm saying -- the _central_ concern of abductees is being
taken against their will. That's what you hear, over and over
and over and over and over and over.


>:The "witch craze" and "white
>slavery" panics both involve symbolic concerns over the
>coming of "outsiders" carrying off women and breeding with
>them. Anyone who has not already noted the parallel with UFO
>abductions may not have been awake for the last ten years...

It's easy to make parallels. The ones the writer cites (snipped
here for brevity ) are remarkably superficial. They might be
allowable in a college English paper ("compare and contrast
the...."), but in social science they remain to be proved. Now I
understand why Jerry Clark talks about psychosocial UFO writing
as an exercise in literary criticism. As we've already seen, the
writer decides for himself what the "central concern" of
abductees is, and bases his comparisons with witch and white
slavery panics on his mistaken assumption. I need less windy
rhetoric from him, and more facts.

>Budd Hopkins, John Mack, David Jacobs, and other UFO
>investigators have been strongly promoting the
>"hybridization hypothesis" of UFO abductions. The "Grays"
>are supposedly kidnapping women and impregnating them, then
>returning nine months later to steal the fetuses before they
>can be born. The Grays are apparently doing so in an effort
>to revitalize their genetic pool, creating some sort of
>'hybrid race' from mixing with us. The issue of how such
>reproduction can be possible - considering the existing
>genetic differences that must exist between the 'aliens' and
>us - is glossed over. What I find most interesting, of
>course, is this color: gray is the color you get when you
>mix black and white together.

This, again, is literary criticism. In real life, when you mix
black and white people together, you get brown skin in various
shades. If abduction lore was supposed to involve buried fears
of race mixing in America, wouldn't the mixed color be brown
instead of gray?

Besides, the aliens aren't the hybrids! So why would anyone
highlight their color as a mixture of white and black? Our
writer has gotten rather badly confused. (As for the genetic
differences that "must" exist between aliens and
ourselves.....(a) they're humanoid, so maybe the difference
isn't so wide (b) maybe our races are related, and (c) maybe
advanced technology can overcome genetic differences with
genetic engineering. I can't prove that any of these scenarios
are correct. I'm just demonstrating that it's easy to make up
scenarios to explain how interbreeding between us and aliens is
possible.)

>
> It's amazing the degree to which racial nationalists of all
>kind have seized onto the UFO abduction phenomenon. In DC, I
>encountered a black nationalist at a fair whose table had
>literature linking the sinister "Grays" to the International
>Bankers' Conspiracy and the Zionist Peril. In a nutshell,
>this pamphlet merely restated the paranoid theories of 50s
>contactee John McCoy, suggesting that the "International
>Bankers" had made a deal with the aliens, the substance of
>which largely being that they would plan UFO abductions and
>sightings so as to create international financial panics
>which would allow them to grab up the world's currency.

It's amazing the degree to which our writer makes gigantic
assumptions, and for evidence cites (once again) only a single
anecdote. He talks about "racial nationalists of all kinds," and
shows us one racial nationalist of one kind. (His other
examples, snipped, had to do with contactees of the past, not
abductees of the present.)

>However, what is curious to me is that the majority of
>abduction investigators have chosen to focus on white,
>middle-class women as abductees. They have chosen women
>because of their 'hybridization' hypothesis - after all,
>just look at all those 40s and 50s sci-fi comics where the
>Green Martian is dragging off some poor housewife, kicking
>and screaming - and perhaps have ended up mostly focusing on
>white women because of certain class/race prejudices about
>the reliability of certain kinds of witnesses. They have
>chosen to focus on the sexual/reproductive aspects of
>abductions, and not to examine others... and to look for
>marks  - scars, cuts, etc. - as the telltale stigma of
>abduction.

"Chosen"? I'd like to see some evidence for that. Maybe they're
simply dealing with what comes their way. This is quite an
accusation -- that abduction researchers favor some abductees,
and some aspects of the abduction scenario, over others. This
sentences is especially uninformed:

>They have
>chosen to focus on the sexual/reproductive aspects of
>abductions, and not to examine others... and to look for
>marks  - scars, cuts, etc. - as the telltale stigma of
>abduction.

Which other aspects of abductions do researchers not look at?
I'd love to see this writer's list. As for marks as "telltale
stigma"....seems pretty natural to me. If abductees allege that
the marks appear on them, how could any researcher _not_ be
interested?

This paper is just a mishmash of speculation, misstatements, and
unfounded assertions. I'm starting to lose my patience with
idiocy like this. If someone has a serious case to make against
abductions, I'm happy to hear it. But I'm getting very tired of
windy junk masquarading as serious analysis. If I published
something this stupid on the pro-abduction side, scorn would be
rained down on me, and rightly so. Why do anti-abduction writers
think they can get away with it?

Greg Sandow





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   Dec > Dec 1

                      Re: When SETI Gets An ET Signal!

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:17:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:45:24 -0500
Subject: Re: When SETI Gets An ET Signal!


>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 03:05:05 +0100
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jean van Gemert <jeanvg@dds.nl>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: When SETI Gets An ET Signal!

>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:34:24 -0600
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: When SETI Gets An ET Signal!

>>To the best of my knowledge, Adamski's photos and films have not
>>been proven to be fakes, regardless of what the Debunkers would
>>have you believe.

>Err... Mike, surely you're _not_ serious here?

>You are serious?

>Oh boy...

Grin....
Yes, Jean, I am dead serious!

I corresponded with Adamski back in 1961 on two different
occassions, and on one of those two occassions George penned a
letter directly to me himself.

I have three of his tape lecutres on tape, and several minutes
of footage of some of the film he took. Some of this footage was
produced in a UFO Special from Germany, and I am not sure if it
was released here or not.  This film was unedited and contained
the film counter at the bottom of the screen.

I choose to reserve judgement on Adamski, until contact with
alien Races have been publicly admitted, and the question of the
validity of his claims can be asked and receive an answer.

I do not trust the answers given by UFOlogists, for they are
biased to say the least.

I do not trust the Government for the reasons ufology doesn't
trust them.

So, there are my reasons....Like it or not, popular or not, I
don't care...Time will tell, once and for all.

REgards, Mike

ICQ#:7508455.
(502) 683-6811





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   Dec > Dec 1

                More 1950s UFO History: The Role Of Dr. James

From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:36:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:46:42 -0500
Subject: More 1950s UFO History: The Role Of Dr. James


A Bit More 1950s UFO History: The Role Of Dr. James McDonald

In 1969, in the wake of the infamous "Swamp Gas" incident in
which UFO debunker Dr. J. Allen Hynek finally got his
comeuppance, Dr. James McDonald spoke to a meeting of the
American Association for the Advancement of Science.  In it he
stated, and backed that statement with voluminous data, that
there had been "only quite superficial examinations" of even the
truly puzzling UFO reports. Now, who had been "scientific
advisor" to the "Air Force" for more than twenty years?  And who
had issued, over and over again, seemingly authoritative
"explanations" for UFO incidents, "explanations" that had the
effect of holding good professionals up to ridicule and
retarding any progress on certain UFO fronts? Why, the answer to
both of the above questions is: J. Allen Hynek!

The only way to link the two men above is in opposition.

Let me quote McDonald's AAAS speech again, "The Air Force
assured The public that . . . substantial scientific competence
had been employed.  Scientists were misled into thinking. .
.that capable scientists had already done adequate studies and
found nothing. My own extensive checks revealed so slight a
scientific competence . . .that it represents the most serious
obstacle that Air Force has put in the way of progress. . ."

McDonald is referring to the Robertson Panel in this last
paragraph, as we know.  Now, who sat in on all of those sessions
and continued as the Air Force's SOLE official "scientific"
spokesman in this area? Why it was J. Allen Hynek!

Can one really believe that one day he simply "woke up" and
decided to change his position?  Well, it was mighty convenient,
wasn't it, since it followed a debunking effort so obviously
bogus that it made him a national laughing stock.  This is the
aforementioned episode where Hynek attributed UFO sightings by
law officers, college students and others in Michigan  to "swamp
gas".  This disaster led then Congressman of Michigan, Gerald
Ford, to call for a Congressional investigation of UFOs.  As for
Hynek, well, we know today moral turpitude is no obstacle to
continued public service in this country, is it?

How hard is it to lock up the "agent status" of a personage in
the UFO arena?  In the case of Dr. Hynek, its easy.  That is, in
the 1950s Dr. Hynek filed Top Secret reports on his fellow
astronomers, reports that were classified and only became public
in the middle 1970s, a quarter-century later, when PROJECT SIGN
papers were released.  In those same documents is the statement,
from Hynek himself (!), that Dr. Lincoln La Paz, of the
University of New Mexico, the meteor expert who had helped
investigate the "green fireballs," thought that Dr. Hynek was
part "of a major cover-up." La Paz was still fuming in 1964
about the way the earlier investigation had been handled by SIGN
and Hynek.

Who worked for PROJECTS SAUCER, SIGN and GRUDGE and alone
survived SIGN/Grudge purge in 1949?  Why it was Allen Hynek!

Who started a brand new UFO organization, right after NICAP was
destroyed from within by CIA psychological warfare operatives,
and put a former Counterintelligence Corps (CIC) member, Sherm
Larson, in charge of the new organization, CUFOS?  Few then knew
of the crucial role the CIC played in the early history of the
UFO, except for security cleared insiders participating in
investigations of UFOs. Who knew this?  Well, Dr. Hynek
certainly did!

Finally, who was it who always had money to travel and seemed to
be everywhere on the UFO scene, for decades?  Whose university
would let him travel on the breaking news of a UFO sighting and
yet held his job for decades?  Why, it was Allen Hynek!

Who was getting money from a "cut out" source, Dodge Corporation
a subsidiary of McGraw Hill, even as he supposedly was working
for the Air Force and could freely take money from THAT source?
This is documented by none other than his "protegee", Jacques
Vallee, in Vallee's book/memoir of Vallee's early experience in
the investigation of the UFO, "Forbidden Science."  Vallee also
repeatedly comments n the ease with which Hynek moved around the
country, turning his classes over to others at the drop of a hat
to investigate what, UFOs?  Yet his position was never in
danger.

All of this material is on the public record and has been for
years!

Take a look at those PROJECT SIGN papers (released twenty five
years ago), at the curriculum vitae of Sherm Larson, first
President of CUFOS.  And all of us must read Jacque Vallee's
book "Forbidden Science" for crucial details about J. Allen
Hynek, government agent extraordinaire.  It's all right out in
the open, if you know how to look.  For example the cut out
payments are described on pages 289-290.

Folks, the UFO arena was and is very akin to a minefield. That
is, if you don't have a good map to the terrain you're
eventually going to get blown up!

Gary





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   Dec > Dec 1

                    Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 48

From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 01:06:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:52:40 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 48

Joe Trainor wrote:

>UFO SIGHTED BY A COUPLE
>IN NIJMEGEN, NETHERLANDS

>On Wednesday, November 25, 1998, at 9:45 p.m.,
>a couple "was walking the dog" in Nijmegen, a large
>city in the Netherlands when they spotted a UFO.

Er...Joe, it wasn't a couple really it were just two guys
walking their female friends dog :)

>"They were watching the sky for a short time
>when they saw what looked like a star getting
>brighter and brighter.  The light was bluish-white
>in colour."  The couple described the UFO as
>"somewhat eye-shaped" or elliptical in structure.

>"It then moved energetically up and down for a
>short time before it shot off in the night once again."
>The object hovered over the southwest section of
>Nijmegen, and the condition of the sky was "cloudy
>but with a lot of clear spots."

>Nijmegen is on the river Rhine approximately
>140 kilometers (84 miles) southeast of Amsterdam.

...Er...Joe, the Rhine is about 30 k/m away from us, agreed
there IS a river running through Nijmegen although we call it
the Waal ;-)

The city was the site of a ferocious World War II
>battle back in September 1944.  (Many thanks to
>Andy Denne of A.U.R.A. for this report.)

...Well, of course there was fighting here as there was in all
of holland in those days, but the battle you're refering to is
the battle of Arnhem about 30 k/m from Nijmegen, and there you
will also find the Rhine...

Love to all,

Andy





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   Dec > Dec 1

               Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:58:53 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:58:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth


>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:16:07 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 19:52:09 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth

>>>Your "Hosts???"  Would you care to elaborate on the meaning of this?
>>>Useful knowledge is power...otherwise, it is just taking up space. <G>

>>>>(Michael)

>>======================================>

>>Certainly, Mike,

>>It is my intellectual assentation to the likelihood that these
>>little bastards have had me over for an evening of fun and
>>frolicking  -  to which I refer.  It is no longer important to
>>me that such suspicions remain secret.  As I have stated on
>>other occasions (and quoting Frank Herbert), "Truth is the
>>foundation for all morality....which is profound thinking, when
>>(you) consider just how unstable the truth can be."

>>It is my hope that my recall will continue to grow, and I would
>>not have to resort to other methods of remembrance.

>>Ergo, my "hosts!"

>>Jim

>Grin...well, the next time they have you over, teach them how to
>play poker...you might recover some of the stuff they took from
>you. <g>

>Seriously, Jim.

>I have no problem with the people who make claims of having been
>abducted. I have a friend who lives about 60 miles who claims to
>have been visited by Grey aliens since he was a small child, yet
>didn't remember it until the abductions started again, after he
>had a sighting with several neighbours and an Air Force officer,
>back in the early 70's in Jackson, Tennessee.

>Up to that sighting, he was a "skeptic!"  Believe it or not.
>Before I even met him, he had been suffering a total collapse of
>his exo-nervous system.  He could not feel anything, and when
>tested by neurosugeons, they could not activate a reaction to
>their tests, including electorstimulation with needle probes.
>Yet, the strange thing is that he is/was still able to walk and
>do the things he desires to do... I even had a medical student
>from the University of Kentucky travel to meet him and give him
>a preliminary examination. When we parted company, the medical
>student, called Thomas, said he didn't understand why my friend
>wasn't paralyzed!!!

>Well, neither do I.  If it wasn't for this "living evidence," I
>would have doubted much of his story.

>The only thing the Doctors could tell him was that at some point
>he had come in contact with some kind of "posion!"

>He reported being in a station wagon with five other people when
>this UFO hovered directly over the vehicle about 200 feet.  He
>pulled himself up in the window to get a good look... not once,
>but twice, mind you, and said the heat from the underneath of
>this object was tremendous, so he slid back into the vehicle and
>like all the others around him, blacked out!

>He has had memories return to him over the years, so he can tell
>me a lot of what happened to him.  He remembers seeing his
>abductors face to face... He remembers seeing information being
>fed to him at trememdous speed via what appeared to be a TV
>Monitor  (computer???).

>I even brought in a local hypnotist to regress him and see what
>he could discover.  He could not get my friend hypnotised.

>Later the hypnotist told me that his subjective consciousness
>was not allowing anyone to control him.

>So, we did not recover any knowledge from the sesson, but
>learned just how strong this man's control over his conscious
>mind was.

>Well, enough for now.  If you wish to comment or add to this,
>please feel free to do so....

>REgards, Mike


Mike,

I'm the last person in the world to give advice, so I won't.  As
for me, I have memories that have lasted nearly as long as I
am old... far back.  While there are some similarities between
your friend and me, the issue is that everyone has their own
set of starting points, initial conditions, religious background,
personallity, the list is endless.

And so only someone who has worked with abductees, in my
view, should attempt to hypnotise someone...... Someone such
as Budd Hopkins, as an example.

I have decided, for the time being, not to take advantage of any
means of memory retrieval, other than my mind.  To quote my
favorite poet, Bob Dylan, "Every man must be alone, but this aint
no place to hide!"

A dera verce, whatever
Jim





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                          Re: Mars MARCI EDL Movie

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:09:35 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 21:14:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Mars MARCI EDL Movie


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Mars MARCI EDL Movie
>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:26:13 -0500

>>Yes, this is once again an age of darkness for the masses.
>>Scientists, who promote themselves, care only about grants, and
>>project dollars...they could care less about the right to know
>>of the average citizen.

>All of them? 90 percent? 75 percent? Half?

You are correct Greg... I should not put all scientists in this
catagory...yet, scientists work with things they can put their
hands on and test...I don't care if you have a hamburger, they
must disect it, test the meat to make sure it is "beef" and the
buns are actually composed of wheat or any other plant which
constitutes flower. This process will continue until every
aspect of the sandwich has been tested and reassembled...then
and only then, will they conceed that it is a hamburger...and
even then, there could possibly be some desenters...<G> ;-)

What I am talking about here, are those scients whose grants and
living are controlled by the Government.  If these people want
to keep their jobs, then they do as they are told. Just like you
and I do at our jobs.  If they defy their superiors and speak
out about something they have discovered, which does not conform
to the strict guidelines of their research project, they are
then ostrasized and kicked out of the project.

A good example of a scientist who had the "peoples interest" in
mind, was Nikola Tesla... He was funded by the moguls, such as
Edison, Westinghouse, and others, so long as they made a profit
from his inventions. But, when he wanted to finish construction
of his "free energy tower" on Long Island, he was dumped, once
J.P. Morgan found out that he was going to transmit power, radio
frequencies, and other forms of energy around the globe "free,"
to the consumers. They could not risk changing General Electric
and Westinghouse corportations, so they refused to continue
funding him and he died owing $25 in 1943... This man, a genus,
who had mankinds good in mind was not allowed to use this genus
because of Financial Restrictions, by those whose sole purpose
for funding his work in the first place was to "get rich!"

>What nonsense. Scientists vary all over the map, just like other
>human beings. My father was a scientist, and though we disagreed
>vehemently about UFOs and other matters, I never doubted his
>passion to make science known to the public. In fact, scientists
>often complain that the public doesn't take them seriously
>enough, and above all doesn't try to learn how they think and
>what they do.

>Greg Sandow

I have no quarel with you and certainly will not say anything
negitive against your father.

The only thing I can possibly say, is that he was, by what you
are saying, a "fundamentalist."  In other words, he followed the
accepted "laws" of science to the letter.

So it is and was with most of the scientists in history.
Einstein was not a scientist per-se, he was a Mathematician, a
theoriest.  He wouldn't know one end of a screw driver from
another.

His "E=MC2" theory, which most people know says that nothing can
travel faster than light, or 186,000 MPS, was disputed by
Tesla...

Tesla sent power around the globe through the earth, to South
Africe, where he had a contact waiting for his signal, and back
to Colorado Springs and proved by his caculations that this
power had traveled at 27 times the speed of light.  Not in
space, mind you but through the plates of the earth. It is
because of such statments, which modern quantum scientists are
finding to be "true," that he was discredited by those
scientists of that day.

Interestingly, Thomas E. Beardon, said:  "We don't say in
science, that we have a 'LAW OF GOD,' but we say a 'LAW OF
NATURE,' and it means the same thing...'thou shalt never change
it. As a matter of fact, Nature does not have any laws.  Those
Laws are manmade Models, and they apply to very broad, very
general situations, only when certain conditions prevail.  Now,
we try to make that as general as possible.  But you can violate
any law of Nature.  Nature has been very kind.  Particularly if
you can bend and warp space time, all laws can be changed. But
what happens is, one part of the scientific establishment digs
in and becomes very orthodox and vary staid.  We would call them
fundamentalists, if we were speaking of a religion. And it
becomes very analogous to a religion, and thereafter, thou must
never do anything, to challange one of the Great Laws and one of
the Great Masters who has spoken that Law! And so we find the
dogma which builds up in science.  Now, that's not entirely bad,
not every wild scheme which comes down the pike is even worthy
of attention.  But, for example: When we put together
fundamentals of a theory over a hundred years ago, and we have
never gone back after a hundred years and reworked the
foundations, it's high time we did so.


"Interestingly, the origional paper that Einstein published
which dealt with what we today call relativity, had really no
new formulas in it....uh...the LaRense theory, had allready been
worked out by LaRense, not Einstein.  It was just algebra, it
had no high powered mathmatics...and it was very simple ideas.
You could not today, get such a paper published, uh...in a
scientific journal, in the United States of America."

THOMAS E. BEARDEN,
Nuclear Engineer
War Games Analyst

The above quotes came from a video tape documentary entitled:
'The Zeneth Factor'
Copyright 1985
Produced by Sky Fabin

This video deals almost exclusively with the science of Nikola
Tesla and his inventions.

REgards, Mike






ICQ#:7508455.
(502) 683-6811






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   Dec > Dec 1

                  Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia

From: Michael Hodges <mwhod@roanoke.infi.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:34:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 21:18:43 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:12:00 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia


>But here's my two cents, even though you didn't ask me...

>Science and Religion have been at loggerheads for hundreds of
>years. While the Vatican originally rejected the notion of the
>Sun being the center of the solar system, they did embrace the
>calender. Why? So that they could get everyone to church on a
>regular schedule. Regular attendance meant regular funds and
>regulated control of the masses.

>Over the years, organized religions have taken on elements of
>science and technology as necessary to continue this control; be
>it television, radio, computer files or automated coin counters
>for the Sunday offerings, etc.

>In short, science is a threat to organized religion unless
>science has something it needs. The ramifications of total
>knowledge that was a possibility with science were all too
>familiar with the early Vatican. Better that early farmers
>should pray for a successful crop than to understand the seasons
>and weather and the soil. For once people found that they no
>longer had to depend on prayer but could, instead, control their
>own destiny, the church knew its time would soon be up.

>I often wonder how much further ahead the human race would be if
>the Vatican had not censured some of the greatest minds of the
>past and had let science and reason take their course....

>Take care,

>Roger

Hi Roger,

I figured out long ago that religion and money have been
controlling the lives of a lot of poor souls on this earth for
ages. Our beliefs are programed into our sub-conscious mind, and
that in turn controls all that we are and do. Most people in
this life have had their nose to the wheel of the grindstone of
life trying to survive and take care of their families. Most of
those who speak from the pulpits of religion don't have the
truth to give. If people could only realize that religion was
created to control the people, and give power to the few. There
is no freedom in religion. Spirituality is a state of being, it
is caught, not taught.

Michael Hodges





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                  Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 01:45:25 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 21:50:00 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia


>From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia
>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:34:19 +0800

>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:27:00 -0800
>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia

>>Dear List readers:

>>Perhaps unfairly, I wish to take a snippet out of the good
>>message below, simply to make a small point.

>>>From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
>>>To: UFO UpDates" <updates@globalserve.net>,
>>>Subject: UFO Sighting over Brisbane.
>>>Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 13:05:01 +1000

>>>The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
>>>tkbnetw@fan.net.au
>>>****************************************
>>>Australian UFO Research Network Hot Line Number
>>> 1800 77 22 88 Free Call
>>>****************************************
>>>Sighting Report:UFOICQ (U/I) CE1
>>>Strathpine, Brisbane Queensland 18th 11.1998 Time 3.35am
>>> Tony Tinnis
>>> Stated he is a Christian and does not believe in UFOs, but...

<snip>

>Dear Larry,

>Did you ever consider this person is perhaps a Christian and
>doesn't believe in UFOs, being mutually exclusive beliefs,
>rather than doesn't believe in UFOs _because_ he's a Christian?

Now that you mention it yes.

However, all we got was Tony Tinnis' statement that:

"(He) is a Christian and does not believe in UFOs."

That sounds an awful lot like one precludes the other, or did at
one time, for Tony Tinnis at least.

Maybe I was wrong.

But, if I ever (perish the thought) see a Bigfoot Yeti wandering
thru the woods, the first words out of my mouth are NOT going to
be " I'm an ex-Catholic and I don't believe in Bigfoot ".

More likely, I would just shake my head in amazement.

These are, and should be, independant beliefs and opinions.

That's been my point all along, and it looks like I've done a
poor job of making that clear.


>Cheers in Tolerance
>Sharon K

Likewise
- Larry Hatch.






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                      Re: When SETI Gets An ET Signal!

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:54:55 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 21:57:55 -0500
Subject: Re: When SETI Gets An ET Signal!


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 14:41:30 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: When SETI Gets An ET Signal!


>I think you've really hit the nail on the head, Greg.
>This entire thread has used the terms "SETI members" "SETI
>supporters" "resources" and "funding" as interchangably as
>someone might use the terms "Xerox" and "photocopies". A Xerox
>copy is always a photocopy, but a photocopy isn't always a Xerox
>copy. Such careless application of the above terms (of which I
>am also guilty) can certainly lead to confusion regarding a
>topic that people are already divided over.

That's a strange response to my pointing out a statement made by
one of SETI's own people about the detrimental effects of a SETI
hoax. And by "people", I mean....."people". I don't want there
to be any confusion. Just kidding, Roger. I really don't think
the bandying about of the terms you mentioned has created any
confusion, otherwise there would be a whole other thread on that
subject. And besides, if they're "already divided over it", what
difference does it make? If people would just use the correct
terms, someone might change sides? Anyway, the issue is whether
or not SETI is a waste of money.

>For the record, when I write "SETI supporters", I refer to the
>vast majority of ET enthusiasts that look forward to proof of
>contact, regardless of whether that proof comes from SETI or
>Ufology.

You're saying that the "vast majority" of ET enthusiasts are
"SETI supporters"? By all means, send me the polls or data
you've no doubt acquired to bolster such a claim. Awfully
presumptous of you, Roger.

>I feel that these people far outnumber the die hard
>"SETI only" or "Ufology only" members combined so hell-bent on
>dividing efforts. No matter how prominent their leaders, the
>masses do not always follow their lead or their ideology.
>Perhaps 30 years ago when SETI or grass roots UFology first
>started; but today's public is far more savvy than that.

Then what are you worried about? Why is it that every time a
ufologist opens his mouth, someone in the crowd has to jump up
and scream "He's trying to convert the masses!"?

>Your will understand, therefore, that I find it disturbing when
>someone as intelligent as Stan uses the term "cultists" or
Serge >writes in that he "hopes SETI flops".

I'm sure Stan has his own personal reasons for using that term,
and I seem to recall his mentioning a few of the ways that
certain SETI members fit the description. Likewise, more than a
few involved in ufology could also be termed cultists,
unfortunately. And as for Serge, maybe he was just feeling a bit
grumpy. Take heart Serge, SETI has already flopped, by my
reckoning!

>If SETI wants to petition Washington for
>funding, more power to them. Nothing is stopping Stan or any
>other high profile UFologist from doing the same.

Which brings me to an interesting point: what _would_ ufology do
with a sudden windfall? I know it's a moot point, but how should
ufologists go about spending the money if it became available?
Say the ten most prominent researchers get about one million
each. Personally, I'd buy lots of surveillance equipment for
field work in hotspots.

Any other ideas? Anybody?

>>Uh, Roger, where have I indicated that SETI is a threat to
>>ufology?

>This is, perhaps, a mis-perception on my part. As I'm sure
>you've been reading, I've been (singlehandedly it would seem)
>playing several games of tennis at once on these threads. The
>over all tone of the threads has been one of "us against them".
>If I've unfairly characterized your intent, then I apologize.

Accepted, but you should realize that the rift between the two
camps is too great to be bridged by little ol' you. Wait, is
that a bridge or a fence you're sitting on?

>If Ufology had plenty of funding, no one would bother mentioning
>_anything_ about the money SETI has the money or the unfairness
>of it.

You don't know that.

I'd like to see it turned around and hear SETI's opinion if
ufology was the big money spender, and SETI was doing the
scrounging (if you must insist on speculation).

>But I think if you go back through the other posts, you'll find a lot
>of out and out whining going on, based on nothing more than a
>misguided notion that SETI is part of the "haves" and Ufology, as
>unfair as it might be, is part of the "have nots".

It isn't misguided. I'm sure it could also be changed with
sufficient effort on the part of ufology. What SETI has going
for it is unity and a sense of purpose.

If ufology ever gets that stuff it will walk all over SETI in
the funding department.

Greg





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   Dec > Dec 1

               Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 01:03:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:00:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth


>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:16:07 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth

>Up to that sighting, he was a "skeptic!"  Believe it or not.
>Before I even met him, he had been suffering a total collapse of
>his exo-nervous system.  He could not feel anything, and when
>tested by neurosugeons, they could not activate a reaction to
>their tests, including electorstimulation with needle probes.
>Yet, the strange thing is that he is/was still able to walk and
>do the things he desires to do... I even had a medical student
>from the University of Kentucky travel to meet him and give him
>a preliminary examination. When we parted company, the medical
>student, called Thomas, said he didn't understand why my friend
>wasn't paralyzed!!!

It would be lovely if all this were documented. Abductees (and
abduction researchers) so often tell stories like these -- but
I've never seen medical records that would prove the stories
true.

So what about those neurosurgeons? Can you get anything in
writing for them? Likewise from Thomas, though I doubt an
examination by a medical student would be accepted as proof of
anything.

I tend to believe these stories, when I hear them from abductees
I know. (Especially if I've known them a long time.) But my
personal belief doesn't count for much in any effort to prove
that abductions are real. I'd like to see actual medical
evidence, in the form of statements from named doctors, or
entries on official hospital records.





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                   Re: Censorship, UASR And Peter Gersten

From: "Steven W. Kaeser" <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 06:34:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:14:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Censorship, UASR And Peter Gersten


>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 01:21:31 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Censorship, UASR And Peter Gersten

>I keep a little dictionary on the desk here and looking at the
>definition of "censorship" I see the following:

>"To act as an official with the power to examine literature,
>mail, etc., and remove or prohibit anything considered
>objectionable."

>Folks, this is the very DEFINITION of the UASR list owners on
>the InterNet.  Get used to it!

>That is, they say themselves, in response to this question
>("Exactly which material will you censor?") the following:
>"Anything we want to, without explanation, warning or recourse."

>This, folks, is the very definiton of a totalitarian system.
>Get used to it.

>No wonder some folks are a little nonplussed by the high-handed
>actions of the USAR owners.

>Gary

Isn't rhetoric marvelous.  One man's freedom to choose is
another's tyranny.

I sense some sort of feeling that there is a 'right' to freedom
of speech on the Internet.  As an un-governed medium I've yet to
find any 'rights' that are universally guaranteed, and would
suggest that in spite of the high level goals set forth by some
of its creators, the Internet is more a 'Sea of Anarchy' than it
is a 'Sea of Free Expression'.

That people are getting upset is not surprising, as that can be
the nature of the 'net'.  I do find it surprising that so many
are expecting certain protections when there is no legal
framework upon which to base such a claim.

Steve





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                 A Lovely Case Of Sleep Paralysis? [was: Re:

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 01:04:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:18:54 -0500
Subject: A Lovely Case Of Sleep Paralysis? [was: Re:

>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:35:06 -0600 (CST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>The second episode occurred actually on Thanksgiving evening,
>while we were spending the night in our isolated cabin (shades
>of Streiber!) about 50 miles north of town. Pardon the cliche,
>but I haven't yet been able to put this one into words. It
>involved a falling sensation that turned into one of flying, a
>bodily "buzz" (or something like that), a magnified ringing in
>the ears, and a visual sensation of light. When I opened my
>eyes, the room was dark as it should have been. When I closed my
>eyes, everything went light again. "Light" here is hard to
>describe, as is the experience itself, which seems to have been
>an aborted, or very vestigial, lucid dream of sorts. This wasn't
>remembered the following morning, in other words; I was well
>aware of what was going on as it happened. I lost it a couple of
>times by being so surprised at the experience as it was
>happening, but made a conscious effort to relax (or accept it)
>on at least two occasions, as a result of which it continued.
>And then as suddenly as it had come it was gone and there was no
>getting it back. I might add that I managed two reality checks
>during the experience, which was unique to me, meaning that I've
>never experienced anything remotely like it that I remotely
>remember. I spent a good deal of time the next day trying to
>"analyze" it, mostly to no avail. Some major details were very
>prominent in my memory, but others were missing entirely, or
>only so vaguely formulated that they might as well have been.

Very interesting, Dennis.It sounds like a lovely case of sleep
paralysis. And I say "lovely" because it sounds more pleasant
than some sleep paralysis reports I've read.. (There's a very
interesting sleep paralysis e-mail list I subscribe to. People
describe a wide range of experiences; yours would fit nicely
into what they describe. Sometimes David Hufford posts to that
list.)


>Dear List,

>As it so happens, I've had three very interesting sleep/dream
>experiences within the last month. In the first one, I awoke to
>find a silver-gray, sort of heart-shaped "alien head" hovering
>about three feet off my bedroom floor. This turned out to be one
>of those shiny (mylar?) helium balloons that kids get at
>birthday parties these days -- the very one indeed that my son
>Kevin had gotten the day before.

>It had lost enough lift so that it was only three feet or so off
>the floor, gently bobbing in the breeze of the overhead fan.
>(Yes, I know it's November, but we're still using ceiling fans
>at night here in Texas.) For a pulsating minute there I thought
>the aliens had finally come for me!

Reminds me of when I was eight or so, and thought I saw a robot
standing in my bedroom doorway. _Something_ was surely there. I
could see its feet!!!!!!!!!

Then I looked again and realized I was looking at a pair of my
own shoes.

Greg Sandow





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                   Re: Censorship, UASR And Peter Gersten

From: Skye Turell <turel33@west.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:42:13 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:20:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Censorship, UASR And Peter Gersten


>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 01:21:31 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Censorship, UASR And Peter Gersten

>I keep a little dictionary on the desk here and looking at the
>definition of "censorship" I see the following:

>"To act as an official with the power to examine literature,
>mail, etc., and remove or prohibit anything considered
>objectionable."

>Folks, this is the very DEFINITION of the UASR list owners on
>the InterNet.  Get used to it!


I hardly think that list owners are "officials."  This is not an
act of government.  They are more like art gallery owners who
decide not to hang work that is of a completely different style
from that art that is normally hung in the gallery.  Or more
like a book store that doesn't stock X-rated material because
they are not an adult bookstore.

Would you argue that galleries and bookstores should be forced
to carry every painting or book regardless of it's
appropriateness to their business.

Probably not.
--

Skye Turell <turel33@west.net>





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   Dec > Dec 1

                   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 07:00:58 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:23:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images

>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 01:48:24 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images

<snip>

>Perhaps the real problem to this approach is that it is
>inadequate to the task and attempts to use a problem solving
>approach which is:

>1) outdated - magnification of various sorts: video, macro
>lenses, microscopes, etc.

>2) technically inadequate - image improvements expected by
>application of, Adobe Photoshop, which is capable of only basic
>image processing operations.

Exactly the point I was trying to make.  Nice to see someone
else with an  understanding of this issue.  Photoshop is great
for what it is designed for, image manipulation.  It was not
designed for scientific analysis of images.

>Back in the 70's I was conversant with this type of imaging
>analysis problem and I can certainly tell you that the
>professionals did not approach this type of task in this way.
>
>Among the problems that keep one from reading the message are
>image blur, poor resolution and contrast, and image noise; due
>to lens abberations, motion and imperfections in the imaging
>chain etc.
>
>As James Bond Johnson knows exactly which camera he used to take
>the picture, this should be obtained or at least the same model
>with same lens obtained.  The optical chain will need to be
>studied and measured.  A mathematical, computational solution
>can be developed which can correct for the defects in the
>imaging chain.  This includes motion, lens abberations, film
>noise, etc.  That the professionals really do it this way can be
>verified by reading the image processing literature.  To claim
>that the other approaches cited so far are definitive are either
>amateurish or disingenously saying that the best of technology
>has been appplied.
>

Might be a problem.  I understand that Bond shot this with an
old Speed Graphic.  My guess is that it had the standard 127 mm
Graflex Optar lens on it, since that is what most of them came with.
These lenses were pretty good, but varied considerably from sample
to sample.  I've shot with a number of them and have found some
samples that were exceptionally good, and others which were
exceptionally bad.  Sample variation introduces another unknown
into the equation.

>The imaging analysis literature, Society of Photoptical and
>Instrumentation (SPIE) journals to start from, should be
>consulted and an photo-reconstruction expert or laboratory
>engaged; many university engineering centers and corporations
>have both the technical capabilities and personnel knowledgable
>to perform a state of the art image reconstruction.
>
>I doubt that the National Photo Interpretation Center (NPIC)
>would want to take on such a politically charged task but there
>are enough readers of this list with intelligence connections,
>that they may be able to engage their local facility!
>
>I have seen worse images successfully and unambiguously be
>interpreted following the application of these techniques.  The
>key is having the camera and the lens, the film and intimate
>knowledge of all parts of the imaging chain.  If you see the
>cameras and lens disappear from antique or used camera shops
>you'll know why. ;-)
>

Not to worry, this particular camera is one of the most common
ones from the 40s and 50s.  The supply won't dry up that easily.
Yes, I've also seen images a lot more blurred which were restored.

Unfortunately, most of the best people in this field would be
hostile to involvement with anything related to UFOs.  So it may
be difficult to get anyone who really knows anything involved.

This is already the case with "analysis" of UFO photos.  Most of
the "analysts" mentioned by UFOlogy don't know their butts from
the Grand Canyon about real image analysis.

>The key to knowing if the proposed reconstruction procedure has
>failed or succeeded is publication of the methodology and
>results by each group attempting the reconstruction.  Verbal
>pronouncements that what we did worked or didn't or
>proclamations that the results were ambiguous won't cut it.  We
>used to call this approach science back in high school (Bronx
>H.S. of Science, alum) and it applies in this arena too.


Right on.  Let's hope someone who really can do the needed
analysis won't be scared of the UFO association and will come
forward to do it.  I'm asking around already.

Bob






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                           The Roswell Declaration

From: Joachim Koch <achimkoch@csi.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:27:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:27:07 -0500
Subject: The Roswell Declaration


Hi Errol and List,

I received an interesting document which I would like to share
with you.

As you might know, Kent Jeffrey, Hans-Juergen Kyborg and myself
initiated The International Roswell Initiative and its main
Document, The Roswell Declaration, written by Kent Jeffrey.

The Declaration was part of this great mainstream, grassroots
effort whose purpose is a general declassification of any
information that the Government might possess regarding the
UFO phenomenon or extraterrestrial intelligence.

This Declaration was supported so greatly around the world
and as of July 8, 1997, approximately 20,000 Declarations
had been signed, and by many of you here, too.

Unfortunately, in Winter 1996/97 Kent Jeffrey made a complete
turnaround which neither was understood by his friends and us
nor by national and international researcher colleagues.

We did not follow Kent's path and separated which is the reason
why we still hold the International Roswell Initiative, Germany.
We held back our part of signed Declarations (approx. 2000) and
nearly every day, new signed Declarations come in. We intend to
deliver them to the new American embassy here in  Berlin once it
is build and in use in Summer 2000.

To save the rest of trust in this fatal situation when Kent
turned around in 1997, we initiated the Berlin Memorandum.
Again, many respected researchers and friend supported this.
Thanks again.

You can fin this document on our webside at: http://ufos.de
There please click in the Archive section on "Themen", then on
"R" and  you'll find the link to Roswell.

Though no longer with the Initiative as it had been half a year
ago, Kent delivered the signed Roswell Declarations to the White
House. On July 8th, 1997, he wrote two letters. The shipment
accompanying the letters consisted of seven boxes containing
approximately 13,000 signed Declarations. The remaining 7,000 or
so Declarations should be sent from locations in Texas and
Illinois and should arrive within the next two weeks.

Kent wrote to:

Janet Murguia
Deputy Assistant to the President for Legislative Affairs
Office of the Legislative Affairs, East Wing, Room 112
Washington, DC, 20500

and to:

President Bill Clinton
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC, 20500

Incredibly, the only response ever received from the government
was a brief letter from a military bureaucrat at the Pentagon
dated 9 December, 1997 - five months after the Roswell
Declarations were submitted!  To add further insult, the letter
primarily describes the current program for declassifying
"government records of historical value" and does not even
mention Roswell.

This is how the U.S. government responds to a petition signed by
20,000 of its own citizens, plus hundreds of citizens from other
countries worldwide!  It is little wonder that so many suspect a
conspiracy.  My guess is, however, that the situation is more
one of indifference and ineptness on the part of the government
and its bureaucrats.  Perhaps, little more can be expected from
an administration led by a president that looks right into the
camera on national television, points his finger, and blatantly
lies to his own people.

Below you'll find the text scan of the letter Kent received.

------------------------------ text follows-----------------
[Seal of the DoD]          Departement of the Air Force

Office of the Secretary            Washington, DC

SAF/LLI                             9 December 1997
1160 Air Force Pentagon
Washington DC 20330-1160


Mr. Kent Jeffrey
P.O. Box 5125 Larkspur, CA 94977

Dear Mr. Jeffrey

On behalf of President Clinton, thank you for your letter
regarding an executive order to declassify information regarding
the existence of unidentified flying objects (UFOs) and
extraterrestrial intelligence. Due to the large number of requests
for personal intervention received by the President each week, he
has asked the departments and agencies of the Federal Government to
reply on his behalf in those instances where they have special
knowledge or authority under the law. For this reason, your
correspondence came to the Department of the Air Force for response.

Executive Order 12958, Classifred National Security Information,
signed by President Clinton on April 17,1995, directs that all
government records of historical value and twenty-five years old
or older be reviewed and declassified, unless meeting one of nine
narrowly-defined exemptions. These records must be reviewed, or
exempted from declassification by April 2000.

The Air Force has identified approximately seventy-five million
pages of material for review under Executive Order 12958. As of
December 1, we have reviewed approximately 26.5 million pages of
material. The Air Force expects to fulfill all the requirements
of the Executive Order prior to the April 2000 deadline. Therefore,
since the declassification process for government records is already
underway, an executive order for specific categories is
unnecessary.

We trust you will find this information helpful.

Sincerely

[signature]
PATRICIA M. FORNES, LtCol, USAF
Congressional Inquiry Division
Office of Legislative Liaison

--------------------------------------end of text---------------

I think we all and many others should ask Mrs. Murguia, Mrs.
Fornes and Mr. Clinton where the Declarations are. I already
have done so and am waiting for a response.

Viele Gruesse

Joachim Koch
International Roswell Initiative, Germany





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   Dec > Dec 1

                Reporter Says "Truth About Ufos Is Out There"

From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 07:57:45 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:30:53 -0500
Subject: Reporter Says "Truth About Ufos Is Out There"


She says E.T. life exists but feds are covering it up

Last updated 11/30/1998, 11:04 a.m. MT

Associated Press

BOISE -- Where others see unfathomable mysteries or
supermarket-tabloid fodder, Linda Moulton Howe sees a great
story in need of an ending.

Howe, a former Miss Boise and Miss Idaho, has spent the past 19
years as an investigative journalist trying to find hard
evidence regarding unexplained phenomena. They range from cattle
mutilations and crop-circle formations to UFO sightings and
reports of human abduction by aliens. Hundreds of interviews, an
Emmy Award and three books later, Howe is convinced of some
truths she believes are out there.

"We are not alone in the universe, and the government of the
United States at least has known that since the 1940s, if not
earlier," said Howe, who now lives in Jamison, Pa. "Coming out
of the World War II environment, there was a decision by the
Truman administration that Americans and the world were not
going to get any facts about this extraterrestrial presence."

Some of Howe's latest interviews and research can be found in
her new 440-page book, "Glimpses of Other Realities, Vol. 2:
High Strangeness" (Paper Chase Press, New Orleans). It's the
second of her two volumes on unexplained phenomena. Her latest
book arrives at a time when interest in such mysteries and
belief in alien visitation pervade popular culture. Fox TV's
"The X-Files" series has brought the murky subjects of aliens,
government conspiracy and other mysteries into American living
rooms every week. "The X-Files" even has incorporated some of
Howe's research into its scripts. Howe also contributes weekly
reports on science and the environment, as well as alien
mysteries, on Art Bell's popular nightly radio program "Coast to
Coast," and his Sunday show "Dreamland."

One of Howe's "Dreamland" reports two years ago focused on
anomalous activity in Utah's Uintah Basin, particularly in the
vicinity of a ranch then owned by Terry and Gwen Sherman. The
Shermans' accounts of UFOs, unusual animal deaths and floating
baseball-sized balls of light, first chronicled in the Deseret
News, intrigued Las Vegas philanthropist Robert Bigelow. He has
since purchased the ranch and moved in a team of scientists to
study activity there and in the surrounding area.

Idaho's own X-Files can be found in the field research of Ike
Bishop, chief investigator and Idaho state director of the
Mutual UFO Network, a group of people who investigate reports of
unexplained sightings. Bishop has traded information with Howe
and said he respects her investigative ability. "She is probably
the most pre-eminent UFO investigator in the world," Bishop
said. "She checks things out before she talks about them. She
gives Art Bell a lot of credibility."

Although Howe might appreciate the compliment, she regards
herself as a television producer and investigative reporter, not
a UFO investigator. "My beat has basically been in science and
medicine and the environment my entire career," said Howe, who
was born in Boise 56 years ago. "I had been producing television
programs and documentary films for 11 years before I ever made
my first phone calls to find out what was happening with unusual
animal deaths around the world."

Howe nearly became an astronomer. As a girl, she was always
interested in the stars. Her father, Chet Moulton, was director
of aeronautics in Idaho until the late 1970s. After graduating
from Boise High School in 1960, she entered and won the Miss
Boise and Miss Idaho pageants, which paid her way through
college. After a professor sparked a love of English in college,
she knew she wanted to be a reporter. She has a master's degree
from Stanford University and has worked for television stations
in Burbank, Calif.; Boston; Denver; and Atlanta.

It was during her tenure in Denver in 1979 that she first
investigated reports of farm animals that were found with
internal organs removed in a strange, almost surgical manner. "I
had no preconceived idea of what I was getting into beyond the
fact that there were hundreds, if not thousands, of cases all
reporting the same bloodless excisions of cattle, pigs, cows and
sheep. "The two most unusual features that law enforcement
always noted was the lack of blood in excisions that were
cookie-cutter precise, and that there were no tracks around
these animals -- even on wet dirt. That's what forced law
enforcement to look to the sky." Law enforcement personnel and
scientists have been unable to explain the technology used in
the mutilations, or who or what mutilated the animals.
"Hemoglobin is cooked. Collagen is cooked," Howe said. "You
can't do that at low temperatures. If it's a laser, where is the
carbon? There is no carbon residue in the cows."

Throughout her work on alien mysteries, she has struggled to get
sources on the record -- to use their full names. Fear of
ridicule keeps many silent. She says fear of government
retribution also keeps many military people quiet. Howe wrote a
book about the mutilation mystery, "An Alien Harvest." She went
on to write about more alien mysteries in her book, "Glimpses of
Other Realities, Vol. I." Howe said she is not out to prove the
existence of UFOs but to uncover facts. The appendix of Vol. 2
contains copies of purported government documents leaked to her
that admit the existence of aliens and confirm a cover-up. "This
is serious. This has nothing to do with a believe system," she
said. "We're talking about men and women who have served in
highly sensitive positions in the United States military and
intelligence agencies, with high clearances.

"These people are the same people who have talked to me and a
few others about the fact that our government has had knowledge
about extraterrestrial biological entities, and that Truman made
the executive order in 1947 that put all of this under a lid.
"This is a story the entire human family on this planet deserves
to have knowledge about."

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Keeping you informed with the latest UFO and alternative News:
UFOSEEK... For the Source!  www.ufoseek.org

"Pictures of SETI Signals from unknown engineer in the UK"
Contact1450 - Mirror Site: UPDATED (since Nov.3)
http://members.aol.com/ufoseek/CapeCanaveralHall7193/





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   Dec > Dec 1

                   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:33:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:35:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images


>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 01:48:24 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images


>Perhaps the real problem to this approach is that it is
>inadequate to the task and attempts to use a problem solving
>approach which is:

>1) outdated - magnification of various sorts: video, macro
>lenses, microscopes, etc.

>2) technically inadequate - image improvements expected by
>application of, Adobe Photoshop, which is capable of only basic
>image processing operations.

>Back in the 70's I was conversant with this type of imaging
>analysis problem and I can certainly tell you that the
>professionals did not approach this type of task in this way.

>Among the problems that keep one from reading the message are
>image blur, poor resolution and contrast, and image noise; due
>to lens abberations, motion and imperfections in the imaging
>chain etc.

>As James Bond Johnson knows exactly which camera he used to take
>the picture, this should be obtained or at least the same model
>with same lens obtained.  The optical chain will need to be
>studied and measured.  A mathematical, computational solution
>can be developed which can correct for the defects in the
>imaging chain.  This includes motion, lens abberations, film
>noise, etc.  That the professionals really do it this way can be
>verified by reading the image processing literature.  To claim
>that the other approaches cited so far are definitive are either
>amateurish or disingenously saying that the best of technology
>has been appplied.

>The imaging analysis literature, Society of Photoptical and
>Instrumentation (SPIE) journals to start from, should be
>consulted and an photo-reconstruction expert or laboratory
>engaged; many university engineering centers and corporations
>have both the technical capabilities and personnel knowledgable
>to perform a state of the art image reconstruction.

>I doubt that the National Photo Interpretation Center (NPIC)
>would want to take on such a politically charged task but there
>are enough readers of this list with intelligence connections,
>that they may be able to engage their local facility!

>I have seen worse images successfully and unambiguously be
>interpreted following the application of these techniques.  The
>key is having the camera and the lens, the film and intimate
>knowledge of all parts of the imaging chain.  If you see the
>cameras and lens disappear from antique or used camera shops
>you'll know why. ;-)

>The key to knowing if the proposed reconstruction procedure has
>failed or succeeded is publication of the methodology and
>results by each group attempting the reconstruction.  Verbal
>pronouncements that what we did worked or didn't or
>proclamations that the results were ambiguous won't cut it.  We
>used to call this approach science back in high school (Bronx
>H.S. of Science, alum) and it applies in this arena too.

>Gary


Good to hear some very sensible comments about this to go with
Leanne's sensible  suggestions.. now all we need is a big
budget.

Stan Friedman







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   Dec > Dec 1

                   Re: Censorship, UASR And Peter Gersten

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:06:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:39:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Censorship, UASR And Peter Gersten


Re: Censorship, UASR And Peter Gersten

>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 01:21:31 -0500
>Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:24:29 -0500
>Subject: Re: Censorship, UASR And Peter Gersten

Previously, Mr. Alvey offered this definition of "censorship":

>"To act as an official with the power to examine literature,
>mail, etc., and remove or prohibit anything considered
>objectionable."

>Folks, this is the very DEFINITION of the UASR list owners on
>the InterNet.  Get used to it!

>That is, they say themselves, in response to this question
>("Exactly which material will you censor?") the following:
>"Anything we want to, without explanation, warning or recourse."

>This, folks, is the very definiton of a totalitarian system.
>Get used to it.

>No wonder some folks are a little nonplussed by the high-handed
>actions of the USAR owners.

I agree.

Before I get into this, let me say that I am against any kind of
Government censorship or censorship by individuals that might
repress the truth being sought in a given subject.

On the other hand, there is a key phrase in the above that
everyone might want to remember:

"USAR list owners"

An "owner" can pretty much do whatever he/she wants. I'm not
saying that we have to like it or approve of it. But that's the
way it works.

If I paint my car an ugly lime green (much to the dismay of my
neighbors, I'm sure) I am defining a "totalitarian system"
because I'm doing anything I want to (with my car), without
explanation, warning or recourse.

Ironically, while newspapers "censor" material themselves on a
regular basis, they would cry foul if the government told them
they HAD to censor the very same material. So don't assume that
censorship doesn't happen in the media. All media, of which the
Internet is now a part, will exercise the right to reject
anything it wants to, without explanation, warning or recourse.

I'm NOT supporting USAR for how they act. I'm merely pointing
out that, unlike government censorship of the free press, what
the USAR list "owners" are doing is legal whether we like it or
not.

As Mr. Alvey pointed out, get used to it.





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                   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 08:03:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:41:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images


>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:04:34 +0100
>Subject: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images

<snip>

>James, Roger & List,

>I wonder, by using the correct types of some (probably
>expensive) hardware, perhaps the next step is to take electron
>microscopic or digitized stereo, microscopic photos of -
>preferably - the original negative? In this way the image might
>possibly be electronically transferred, 'manipulated' and viewed
>from all 3 dimensions using some 3-D CAD program, or directly
>viewed using 3-D spectacles (also on Internet?).

>Regards,
>AWS

Somehow the thought of diving into the Ramey Memo leaves me
feeling a little strange.  This is so far out of "left field"





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                   Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:31:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:45:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images


>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 06:40:08 -0500 (EST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images


>Stan, Kevin, and all,

>Readily available software like Adobe Photoshop and its clones
>is simply not up to the task presented by these images.

>There is software which could sharpen this image, and probably
>make the writing easily read with no interpretation.  However,
>this software, which has been written about in the photographic
>press, is not generally available outside the intelligence and
>criminal investigation realm.  I have seen examples of images
>which any analyst would dismiss as hopeless blurs restored to
>high quality by these programs.

>What we need is an insider with access to this software.

>I am going to start asking around within the photographic
>community to see if I can get any leads on such a person.  I
>suggest that anyone here with any real intelligence or criminal
>investigation contacts begin similar inquiries.

>Bob

No arguement from me here. If you find such a person I would be
happy to provide a free CD Rom with all the scans as long as we
can be sure of getting all the output.

I think that once again, the problem might be a budget.

Stan Friedman






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   Dec > Dec 1

                         Sighting - Montreal, Quebec

From: Jenifer Migneault <westy@endirect.qc.ca>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:42:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:48:06 -0500
Subject: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec


Hello to all of you,

First, please excuse my poor English... ;0) I'll do my best to
make myself understood by everyone!

My husband and I (as well as many car drivers) witnessed last
sunday night what it seems to be an UFO... Even thought it was
beautifull to moment to live (hopefully, not the last one!!!!)
it troubled me..  So many questions still unanswered...Even
thought I always did beleive in UFO and everything that goes
with it, I sure wasn't ready to live such an experience.  Since
this happened, I do research on the net to find if whatever we
saw was ever seen by someone else in this big world....How was
also wondering how many of you, partipating in this mailing list
experienced something related to UFOs. Gee, you seem to know so
much about it...

Once again, excuse my english!!!

Jenifer Migneault
Montreal, Quebec





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                  Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:17:47 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:52:12 -0500
Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 09:33:08 PST
>Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:19:37 -0500
>Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

Previously, I had written:

>>A handfull of people do NOT define what the masses think, these
>>days. If it's that easy, then Ufology should have no problem
>>dominating and defining it's own field. It could then move on to
>>being more productive and organized than it has been.

Jerry responded:

>If you maintain that SETI supporters support UFO research,
>except for a few "fringe" characters (i.e., those who speak for
>SETI, lead it, work at it, write about it, and define it), it is
>up to you to provide the evidence.  I don't see any, and neither
>does anybody else.  Did you miss Greg Sandow's posting quoting
>all sorts of anti-UFO sentiments from just about every prominent
>SETIan?  I'm afraid you're arguing without evidence.

And you're arguing under very broad assumptions about the power
of these few individuals to sway public opinion or affect the
direction of UFO research. I have no doubt that they have
personal agendas regarding the direction of SETI and would like
as many people as possible to share their views; so do key
figures in ufology. But, as ufologists are painfully aware, we
don't always get what we wish for. More to the point, you've
offered no evidence that SETI has blocked the efforts of UFology
or its members. Does SETI get more funding than Ufology? Yes.
But you can't blame SETI for presenting a better front and
having better PR.

>I'll take
>your word for it that out there, among those with no access to
>science or media, without voice or influence, are some SETI
>enthusiasts who support UFO research. So what?  Where SETI's
>agenda is concerned, they're about as influential here as truck
>drivers who support UFO research.

Make up your mind, Jerry. If what the general public thinks
isn't important, then what does it matter if key SETI figures
are as influential as you say? BTW, considering that both SETI
and Ufology is funded by private donations, I'd be a little more
considerate of what truck drivers think. They might just be
interested in UFO research...

Again, the following question remains unanswered:

>>While you included Serge's comments that supported your point of
>>view, you left out Serge's petty desire that SETI fail to make
>>contact with exterrestrial life. It's a pretty lame-ass wish,
>>don't you think, for someone supposedly concerned with making
>>contact as soon as possible. Are you afraid that people reading
>>this will think him typical of all Ufologists? Think about it.

Jerry's response:

>Why should I have to answer that question, Roger?  Serge is
>entitled to his opinion.  I was expressing my opinion, not his.
>I was addressing my remarks to your views, not his.

On the contrary, Jerry.

When you give direct answers to direct questions, then you are
addressing your remarks to my views. When you include someone
else's views in an attempt to bolster your position, you can't
selectively leave out things that are counter to your own point
of view. This is particularly true considering the context for
my original question; i.e. that both ufology and SETI have
members with questionable agendas that don't represent the views
of the larger group. If you don't support the views of Serge,
then say so. But don't pick the bones of his illogical post
looking for random pieces that might 'fit' your view point about
SETI.

Finally, you offered:

>Since virtually every notable SETIan holds that SETI's
>intentions are more noble than ufology's, who can blame the
>occasional ufologist for holding that ufology's intentions are
>more noble than SETI's?

"The occasional ufologist"?

Please. Don't everyone reading this come running to my defense
all at once. It might get crowded.

Later,

Roger Evans





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 12:52:30 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:03:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:48:37 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:40:48 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 98 13:13:03 PST
>>>Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:36:24 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists

><snip>

>>>In any event, unless you can produce clear and specific evidence
>>>(or even, for that matter, merely intriguing and suggestive
>>>evidence) that Americans everywhere deeply fear Hispanic
>>>immigration and therefore suffer vivid fantasies about abduction
>>>by decidedly non-Hispanic extraterrestrials, it simply does not
>>>matter what you believe or refuse to believe.

>Whoa, now hold on a minute Mr Clark. Please point out _exactly_
>where I said "Americans everywhere deeply fear Hispanic
>immigration"

You didn't use those words, but your argument surely implies it,
if you'd given the argument the thought you clearly have not
applied to it.

If you were interested in a testable fear-of-Hispanics
hypothesis, one way of determing its truth or falsity would be
to determine whether _non-Hispanic Americans in those areas
where Hispanic immigration is greatest have a correspondingly
higher number of abduction fantasies_.  Instead, the idea is
framed so carelessly that you make it seem as if Americans in,
say, northern Minnesota and their counterparts in southern
California are equally in the grips of this alleged panic.  Most
of us, as you are learning, have no idea what you're talking
about.

Of course there's more this weird theory has to explain, but
linking it to some demographic statistics at least would be a
start.

>>I agree 100%, Jerry.

>>As someone that lives in Houston, I have many friends that are
>>Hispanic. This sort of "Assume-O-Science" is both annoying and
>>degrading to all Americans.

>I'm puzzled as to why the phrase "concern over alien
>immigration" is considered "degrading" to Americans, or why it
>should need an apology. This is typical of so much of the
>reaction to psychosocial arguments (and, in fairness, most other
>arguments) on the Internet. One phrase, quoted from repost to
>repost, is wrenched out of context - much like Jerry Clark's
>continued implication that Peter Rogerson has developed an
>elaborate theory that *all* abductees live in fear of being
>invaded by hoards of Hispanics, Vietnamese, Haitians, Kosovans
>or whatever - and denounced for what the reader thought it
>_should_ have said.

Peter Rogerson's arguments about what abductions may or may not
mean vary from one of his essays to the next.  In at least one
of them, Peter -- who to the best of my knowledge has never been
to this country; his understanding of American affairs is, in my
reading, naive and provincial -- claimed  abduction fantasies
come out of panic about immigration.  In others he's claimed
that it comes from fear of bureaucrats.  In others fear of
science and scientists.  And so on and on.  Peter is a nice guy,
always entertaining, but a long way from the first guy I'd seek
out for illumination on what the abduction (or, for that matter,
UFO) phenomenon is about.  (Or, one might as well say, anything
about American life and culture.)  In an IUR piece
("Psychosocialbabble," May/June 1990) I offered some pointed
observations.

The following sample, wherein Peter in a few sentences seeks to
explain the God, universe, and everything of American ufology,
will give readers not familiar  with his work some sense of its
peculiar flavor:

To Americans (those dummies!) UFOs are "a folklore in which
the man and woman in the street is [sic] threatened by both
the limitless power of the `wholly other,' from which not even
the bedroom is safe, and the arbitrary power of a state
bureaucracy widely believed to go round assassinating and
intimidating those who have discovered its appalling secret.
Beyond the crashed saucer stories lies the fear that
passionless symbols of pure reason are in command, and
somehow need to steal our passion and our physicality in
order to survive and reproduce. The atrophied `animal parts'
of the alien cadavers have their psychological counterpart
in the `glacial indifference' of the abductors. These are, of
course, literal `eggheads,' the antithesis of the `red-blooded
American male,' and thus the ultimate symbol of un-
Americanism."

Of these, uh, unique observations I wrote:

"Such is much of ufology in our time, an exercise in -- what
_does_ one call this sort of thing?  Rubbish, of course, but
rubbish and writing about UFOs have a long, dishonorable,
and depressingly documentable intimate relationship; so
our friend does not distinguish himself here, not anyway
when the John Lears and Bill Coopers (whose crazy and
marginal views our British pundit seems to think are
representative of the beliefs not only of American ufologists
but of Americans generally) are abroad in the land. Perhaps
what makes these remarks notable is their quality of
pseudoprofundity. One who is not reading carefully, or
who knows little of what is being addressed (American
ufology and American popular culture), may nod
approvingly, though without quite realizing what meets his
approval is the elegance of the prose. After all, with one
exception (I confess the line about the `atrophied animal
parts' remains incomprehensible to me even after repeated
readings), the sentences start somewhere and end with
some discernible link with the opening sentiment -- not
always the case in ufological prose -- and there is only
one grammatical error. There are the requisite
intellectual buzz words and phrases; not just the always
reliable `symbol' and `psychological counterpart' but
`passionless symbols of pure reason,' a real mouthful,
not to mention `the limitless power of the "wholly other"'
and `antithesis.' And of course there is the implicit
Ameriphobia, always good for additional credit in some
quarters."

I go on:

"If one reduces the UFO phenomenon to an exercise
in literary criticism (in other words, to meditation on a
bunch of ideas and images patched together in
narrative form) as opposed to a collection of
investigatable experiential claims, the remarks above
would have some meaning, not as profound insights
(they are not that in any context) but as the sort of
harmless fodder hack academics grind out to satisfy
humanities-department heads that they are indeed
able to publish _something_ and thus are worthy of
continued employment at some less-than-first-rate
provincial university. Merit, or even intellectual
coherence, is not always the primary concern in
these circumstances."

>I am sure that Mr Evans has Hispanic friends. I'm sure he is a
>sociable fellow and has friends of many races and nationalities.
>Perhaps he even has English friends - or is that taking
>tolerance too far? It is however perfectly possible to have
>friends of a variety of nationalities and still be concerned
>about issues like immigration and race relations. "Concern",
>note, not gut-wrenching fear. If you are going to respond to my
>suggestions please use my actual words, and not what Jerry Clark
>thinks I said!

John, don't blame us for your lame arguments.  I know you're a
smart guy (and a good guy as well), but if I were you, I'd
resist the temptation to make sweeping statements about people
(e.g., Americans) whom all Americans on this list see you don't
know much about at all.  No wonder the psychosocial hypothesis
is viewed so skeptically here.

Jerry Clark





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   Dec > Dec 1

                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 13:00:09 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:17:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:53:05 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 98 14:38:51 PST

>>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:02:33 +0000
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>>>Date: Sat, 28 Nov 98 11:20:40 PST

>>>Of course it's psychosocial. It's also pretty psychosocial as to
>>>just why the overwhelming majority of ufologists are white. If
>>>abductions _were_ happening as frequently amongst the black
>>>community as they are amongst the white I'd expect rather _more_
>>>black ufologists who would be more accessible to black
>>>experiencers.

>>Why?

>Why not? Aren't Black people going to be just as worried and
>upset about being abducted as White people? Aren't they going to
>be just as anxious to find out what's happening to them? And if
>they are understandably reluctant to take these fears to a
>self-selected group of White abductionists, why shouldn't they
>confide in people within their own communities whom they can
>trust?

Since there is no abduction panic going on in this country, your
questions are moot. But I suppose I have to point out the
obvious:

There were never many African-American ufologists here even
during the pre-abduction UFO era.  I suppose that next you're
going to tell us that this must mean  black people weren't
having (non-abduction) UFO sightings.  After all, wouldn't black
UFO witnesses be just as anxious as their white counterparts to
find out what they saw?

Give us a break, John.

Jerry Clark





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:19:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:18:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:48:37 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>I'm puzzled as to why the phrase "concern over alien
>immigration" is considered "degrading" to Americans, or why it
>should need an apology. This is typical of so much of the
>reaction to psychosocial arguments (and, in fairness, most other
>arguments) on the Internet.

I can't speak for others on the list, but I have a different
problem with the phrase "concern over alien immigration."
Obviously there's "concern over alien immgigration" in the
United States. There's also concern over crime, air pollution,
natural foods, the price of auto insurance, the decline of news
reporting into gossip mongering, the inability of TV networks to
find viewers for new shows, and (in New York) the apparent
inability of the Metropolitan Transit Authority to use its
unexpected financial surplus to increase the quality and
frequency of subway trains.

All these themes sail somewhat randomly through the media. Often
they're contradictory. If you simply want to observe American
life, the spectacle can be both provocative and entertaining.

But if you want to study some aspect of American life more
seriously -- the abduction phenomenon, for instance -- you have
to be much more precise about what you say. Do you want to link
abductions to the evident "concern" over immigration? You then
have to establish actual facts about that "concern," beyond the
mere fact of its existence. How strong is the "concern"? How
many people share it? Who are those people? Are they the same
people who appear to be involved in the abduction phenomenon?

You have to establish that the "concern" about immigration
somehow stands out from other "concerns," either in American
life in general, or among people involved with abductions. Some
people asserting the connection between abductions and
immigration -- like the writer of the document Peter Brookesmith
posted -- try to do this by saying that the reaction to
immigration reaches the level of "panic." This, however, is open
to serious question. Nor do those making this claim help their
case by failing to provide any evidence beyond a few anecdotes.

What happens when the claim of immigration "panic" is
challenged? One response seems to be a retreat from "panic" to
"concern." If people like me object to the description of a
"panic," surely we'll admit that there's a "concern."

Well, of course there is, but what does that prove? As I said,
there are "concerns" in America (and elsewhere0 about endless
numbers of things. If the mere existence of a "concern" about
immigration is enough to connect fear of immigration to
abductions, then the connection becomes untestable. It's going
to be a long time before any of us will be able to look at
American life, and not see some upset, somewhere, over
immigration. Are the supporters of this immgration-abduction
hypothesis going to say that as long as someone, somewhere is
upset about immigration the hypothesis remains viable? If they
do say this, then the hypothesis can never be falsified.

In order for me, at least, to take it seriously, I need it
formulated in scientific terms. I need a way to measure how
intense and how widespread the "concern" over immigration is.
Once that's accomplished, I need to know how high the measured
"concern":needs to be before it can be put forth as an
explanation for other developments. I need testable hypotheses
that flow from the theory. If abduction fear is really
influenced by immigration fear, what other developments would we
expect to see? What developments ought to be ruled out?

Without these scientific refinements, the theory remains just an
idle assertion.

Greg Sandow





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:59:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:20:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:53:05 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

There was one well-known Afrcian-American involved in abduction
research, who unfortunately is dead. This was Richard Neal, a
California physician who was coincerned about "missing fetus
syndrome," the claim made by some abductee women of having been
pregnant, and then having the pregnancy mysteriously end.

Neal found no evidence that these events really happened. His
race, as far as I know, never was an issue to him or to anyone
else. Nor did he seem concerned about any of the issues John
raised here. (Though perhaps people who knew him will tell me
otherwise; I'd be grateful for better information than I
presently have.)

Meanwhile, as for....

>>>Of course it's psychosocial. It's also pretty psychosocial as to
>>>just why the overwhelming majority of ufologists are white. If
>>>abductions _were_ happening as frequently amongst the black
>>>community as they are amongst the white I'd expect rather _more_
>>>black ufologists who would be more accessible to black
>>>experiencers.
>
>>Why?
>
>Why not? Aren't Black people going to be just as worried and
>upset about being abducted as White people? Aren't they going to
>be just as anxious to find out what's happening to them? And if
>they are understandably reluctant to take these fears to a
>self-selected group of White abductionists, why shouldn't they
>confide in people within their own communities whom they can
>trust?
>

When I read comments like this, I'm quite frankly amazed. Amazed, and,
I might add, deeply disappointed. Here we have a man who champions a
sociological approach to ufology, and he seems not to know
sociological data or sociological method. (I remember asking some time
ago if social scientists were involved in John's group of psychosocial
researchers, and his answer was no.)

You can't simply make assertions about what people "should" do. We're
talking here about African-Americans, a group of real people with
observable characteristics. These observable characteristcs, the
subject of quite a bit of serious study, differ from the observable
characteristics of white Americans.

Among these observable characteristics are a greater tendency to
smoke. Smoking, as we know, is a health hazard. So here we have a
serious, documented health problem among African-Americans. Does that
lead to -- paralleling what John says "should" happen if black
Americans are being abducted -- an upsurge in the number of black
physicians and in the number of black patients rushing to consult
them?

It doesn't. Let's take John's statements about what "should" happen in
abductions, and change them into statements about smoking.

>It's also pretty psychosocial as to
>>>just why the overwhelming majority of physicians are white. If
>>>health risks from smoking_were_ happening as frequently amongst
the black
>>>community as they are amongst the white I'd expect rather _more_
>>>black physicians who would be more accessible to black
>>>smokers.

>Aren't Black people going to be just as worried and
>upset about rhe risk of smoking as White people? Aren't they going
to
>be just as anxious to find out what's happening to them? And if
>they are understandably reluctant to take these fears to a
>self-selected group of White physicians, why shouldn't they
>confide in people within their own communities whom they can
>trust?

Anyone who knows anything about African-American communities
would simply laugh at these statements. For one thing, black
Americans, on the whole, are poorer than white Americans, and
have less access to health care. (Ultimately this is surely more
of a class issue than a race issue.) Any attempt to predict
black behavior based on patterns of white behavior is, very
simply, ridiculous.

John, let me speak very plainly here. If psychosocial ufology is
going to be worth anything, it has to proceed from a solid
foundation in social science. You expect those of us who lean
toward the ETH to support what we're saying with good physical
science. Why shouldn't we expect the same from you, in your own
area?

Presently all I see from you is attempt to conduct science by
proclamation. You make any assumption you please, and declare
what groups of people "should" do, all without regard for work
that's actually been done on how those people think and behave.
If I were to prattle about element 115 and the Hale-Bopp
companion, I'm sure you'd chuckle, and, if you wanted to idle
away some time, post something about how once again a supporter
of the ETH had demonstrated his credulity.

But what you're doing is no different. You're posting the social
science equivalent of junk about element 115. You really must do
better.

Greg Sandow





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   Dec > Dec 1

               Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth

From: Rebecca <XianneKei@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:07:08 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:22:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth


Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 06:33:35 -0500 (EST)
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Subject: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth

>As for the AA film, even though many UFOlogists have dismissed
>it as a hoax, we should all remember that it has not been proved
>to be a hoax.  Not yet, anyway.  The file is still open on this
>one.

Bob, Bob, Bob,

Surely, you aren't still keeping _that_ file open?

Rebecca





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 15:17:44 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:24:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:16:54 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 18:36:17 -0500

>>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 09:43:19 +0000
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>>In the meantime a number of other people wrote pointing out that
>>>there _were_ other black abductees and also offering suggestions
>>>as to why black people may be more reluctant to report abduction
>>>experiences to predominantly white UFO organisations.

>>>I accept these arguements - they are after all sociological! -
>>>but I was rather surprised that amongst the alleged thousands of
>>>abductees there have been over the past twenty years the only
>>>name anyone could come up with was Barney Hill.

>Where, where, where did I mention anything about "hysteria" over
>Hispanic immigration? I said "concern" and the legislation (and
>referenda) you mention does indicate "concern". I am getting a
>bit tired of telling people to respond to what I actually write,
>not what Jerry Clark thinks I should have written.


John,

Hold on a minute.  You mean to tell us _now_ that there is no
"abduction panic," no related "racial fear"?  Both of these, in
case you've forgotten them, are phrases you yourself have been
using.  _I_ didn't concoct them.

Now you're trying to tell us that instead of panic and fear,
there is just "concern" -- all the while accusing _me_ of
misstating your position.  Oh boy.

That being the case -- if there is no panic, no fear, only
"concern" -- what in the world has this relatively mild state of
affairs to do with something so dramatic, even traumatic, as
Americans' abduction experiences?  Americans (not to mention
people everywhere around the world) also feel "concern" about
lousy weather, car problems, rent and bill payments, one's
health, the well-being of one's children, job security, and the like.
Do these, too, generate fantasies about being abducted and
probed by humanoid extraterrestrials?  If, as I suspect (I could,
of course, be wrong), your answer is no, then why are race and
immigration in this discussion at all?

It's not my fault if your argument, never a model of clarity to
start with, is growing ever less coherent.

Jerry Clark






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                  Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 15:58:15 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:29:06 -0500
Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:07:18 -0500
>Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:35:24 -0500
>Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

Previously, Serge declared:

>Your preconceived ideas about SETI had you called me stupid and
>a couple other names - and with other subscribers too: bad
>education.  This is understandable since you were arguably
>enough ignorant of the facts and since SETI is such a palatable
>NASAian space human adventure - Jesus Christ.  I am thus
>surprised that, confronted with reality, you STILL evidently
>think I am some stupid asshole.

Okay, let's look reality in the face.

I never called you an asshole. But speaking of calling names,
you DID start this whole argument off with the following:

>>Any 30 years $100-million flopped project supported by
>>mainstream science on the hypothesis of extra-terrestrial life
>>must be questioned by people involved in a 50 years $0.00
>>research who came up with evidence - people who are still
>>laughed at by the same SOBs who support the fore-mentioned
>>project.

As I said before, I support ufology and respect the fact that it
has done so much with so little. What I find offensive about the
above statement is your assertion that anyone also daring to
support SETI is an SOB and your broad generalization that all
SETI supporters laugh at the efforts of ufology.

The "bet" I made was poorly worded on my part, I'll give you
that. And, yes, you did win the bet. I can't deny it. But, in
context with the discussion at hand, the much bally-hoo'd list
you provided is hardly proof that the majority of SETI
supporters are as polarized against ufology as you maintain. As
I've stated before, ufology has outspoken leaders with
questionable agendas, as well. I don't think many within the
ranks of ufology would maintain that these "leaders" define how
everyone else thinks.

Speaking of how some people think, your following statement was
conveniently left out of your current reply:

>>I hope SETI keeps on being a flop. Why? Because any success would
>>give the same SOBs more un-earned respectability and more un-earned
>>credibility. The people from SETI are, in my opinion, on the OTHER
>>side of the fence: the side of mainstream science, which has
>>deliberately and malevolently kept ufology in a ghetto.

I'm sorry, but anyone genuinely concerned with making contact that takes
such a petty position _is_ being "stupid" as I said before. After self
editing your own comments, you then pointed out the following list
participants as being supportive of your viewpoint:

>[It] has been, _in_some_way_, recognized for its merits (eh?) and an
>open-minded SETI seriously challenged (among others) by: Doc
>Barry Mauthority@webtv.net>, Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>,
>Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>, Jerome Clark
><jkclark@frontiernet.net>, Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>,
>Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>.

How about it, guys?

Regardless of your own personal views about the effectiveness of
SETI, do any of you REALLY hope SETI fails? Or do we just
casually ignore the above statement because it's embarrassing to
admit that someone within our ranks could be so mean spirited
and petty?

>I am the _only_ ufologist on record with that attitude, and
thus >the _only_ ufologist with that kind of logic.  If I follow
your >logic, then I am responsible for _all_ ufology being
deliberately >and malevolently kept in a ghetto?

Hey, man. It's not _my_ logic. It's _your's_. You're the one
that maintains the few accurately represent the many. If you've
read anything that I've written, you'll find that my view is
just the opposite and always has been. Make up your mind which
rules you want to follow and for whom...

>I am responsible for ufology
>not reaching the promised land? I plead guilty.  The joke is on
>you, Roger, I am _not_ a ufologist.

I'm sure ufologists everywhere are breathing easier.

>Credibility has to do with authenticity, liability and truth.  I
>am afraid SETI has started on the wrong track with their
>attitude towards ufology: hostile, demagogic, refusing to
>recognize 50 years of evidence, side-tracking the people
>involved in the field.

>This is wrong-doing.  We are not talking only of Sons of Bitches
>here but of Standard Organized Bullshit, which is what stupidity
>is all about.

>I hope they choke.

Too, bad.

I was hoping everyone could work together without someone dying.

Later,

Roger Evans






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   Dec > Dec 1

               Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 16:31:09 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:52:17 -0500
Subject: Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald


>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:36:29 -0500
>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: A Bit More 1950s UFO History: The Role Of Dr. James McDonald

>Can one really believe that one day  [Hynek] simply "woke up" and
>decided to change his position?  Well, it was mighty convenient,
>wasn't it, since it followed a debunking effort so obviously
>bogus that it made him a national laughing stock.  This is the
>aforementioned episode where Hynek attributed UFO sightings by
>law officers, college students and others in Michigan  to "swamp
>gas".  This disaster led then Congressman of Michigan, Gerald
>Ford, to call for a Congressional investigation of UFOs.  As for
>Hynek, well, we know today moral turpitude is no obstacle to
>continued public service in this country, is it?

This is just silly.  Allen Hynek, about whose personality we are
learning nothing from the above, was a cautious man by nature.
His reluctance to part company with colleagues, not to mention
employer (the Air Force, whose fees helped the Hyneks educate
their children), explains everything you  need to know about
Hynek's long skepticism, followed by dithering, followed by
cautious advocacy.  His longtime closet occultism explains why
at the end he had moved into extremely speculative approaches.
He once confided to me his belief that  "elementals" (nature
spirits, for the occult-unread out there) are behind the UFO
phenomenon.

Jim McDonald, Hynek's harshest critic, never succumbed to
baseless paranoia about Allen's motivations.  He deemed Allen a
coward for his long silence in the face of Blue Book's excesses,
and he told him so, about as bluntly as one human being can
speak to another.  (A long, never-sent incendiary letter cites
chapter and verse, one of the most amazing documents I have ever
read.  It's in the McDonald archives at the University of
Arizona.)  In person, as I know (having known Allen fairly well
in his last decade), Allen often reflected back on McDonald's
assault on his personality, character, and choices and
attempted, again and again, to explain and rationalize his
behavior. McDonald's charges troubled him the rest of his life.

>How hard is it to lock up the "agent status" of a personage in
>the UFO arena?  In the case of Dr. Hynek, its easy.  That is, in
>the 1950s Dr. Hynek filed Top Secret reports on his fellow
>astronomers, reports that were classified and only became public
>in the middle 1970s, a quarter-century later, when PROJECT SIGN
>papers were released.  In those same documents is the statement,
>from Hynek himself (!), that Dr. Lincoln La Paz, of the
>University of New Mexico, the meteor expert who had helped
>investigate the "green fireballs," thought that Dr. Hynek was
>part "of a major cover-up." La Paz was still fuming in 1964
>about the way the earlier investigation had been handled by SIGN
>and Hynek.

Yup.  A lot of people, including me, have fumed about how the
various Air Force projects handled UFOs.  Some have thought that
a cover up, not a foul up, was responsible.  La Paz, however,
was wrong, to all available evidence.  Sign/Grudge/Blue Book
were largely incompetent, as anybody can see for himself reading
their handling of most UFO reports.  I am open-minded about the
notion that a cover-up existed somewhere, but Blue Book was not
part of it.  Nor was Allen, who spent his last years more or
less convinced that somebody within the inner circle had the
answers and feeling bitter that, for all his loyal service, he
had been kept out of the loop.  These feelings intensified as he
began to wonder if maybe there were some foundation to the
long-standing rumors about crash/retrievals.

>Who worked for PROJECTS SAUCER, SIGN and GRUDGE and alone
>survived SIGN/Grudge purge in 1949?  Why it was Allen Hynek!

So?  Allen wasn't a military officer subject to reassignment.  He was
a civilian consultant of proved utility to the Air Force.  He had a
pleasant personality and worked well with the various Blue Book
staffs, and for a long time he followed the party line.  None of this
amounts to evidence that he was anything more than a complacent,
capable consultant.  It's a real stretch to get a sinister agent out
of these modest materials.

>Who started a brand new UFO organization, right after NICAP was
>destroyed from within by CIA psychological warfare operatives,

This is garbage, not to put too fine a point on it.  To start with, the
old Keyhoe-era NICAP closed on December 3, 1969.  CUFOS
did not come into existence until October 1973.

NICAP was destroyed not by sinister conspiracies but by Keyhoe's
authoritarian personality and managerial incompetence, which caused
all kinds of financial and -- most important -- tax liabilities for the
Board of Governors, who finally stepped in to protect their own money
interests.  All of this can be documented easily by consultation with
the NICAP files, where the problems are discussed at length in
internal correspondence. I discuss the real, not the imagined,
reasons for NICAP's demise in The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed.,
pp. 559-60, 670-71.

>and put a former Counterintelligence Corps (CIC) member, Sherm
>Larson, in charge of the new organization, CUFOS?

This is not just silly, it's downright hilarious.  Sherm Larsen (not
Larson) as secret agent?  Pardon me while I pick myself off the floor.
I knew Sherm very well.  My ex-wife (at the time my fiance) worked
as his secretary for several years, and I'd see him several times
a week.  _Nobody_ who knew him would _ever_ mistake him for
anything other than what he was: a hard-working, unimaginative
George F. Babbitt type of average intelligence and conventional
 views, an insurance agent by profession and a living personification
of every stereotype associated with that calling. (No offense to
you insurance agents out there; yours is a perfectly honorable
occupation, but you know what I mean probably better
than anybody.)

Sherm had practical managerial skills, of which Allen possessed
zero, and these skills did much to keep CUFOS functioning from
day to day.  Allen didn't put him "in charge." He wanted to start
a UFO organization but didn't want to go through the hassle of
incorporation procedures. Sherm suggested to him that he
simply take over Public Education Group (PEG), a local flying-
saucer discussion group Sherm  had led for some years in the
Chicago area; Allen agreed, insisting on the name Center for
UFO Studies.  The unremarkable story, which no one who was
there at the time disputes, is related by Larsen in "The Founding
of CUFOS," IUR, May/June 1986, pp. 13-14.  Sherm had nothing
to do with the setting of CUFOS policy, except in his capacity as a
board member, where (with two exceptions, one noted below; the
other, which involved a personality conflict, is irrelevant here) he
tended to vote with everybody else.

Sherm left CUFOS after Allen's death.  The rest of us board
members, mostly younger men than Sherm (who was in
his 70s, and retired from his day job), wanted to move headquarters
from a strip mall in out-of-the-way Glenview into a more accessible
office on Chicago's north side. Sherm wanted to stay in Glenview,
which was also where he lived. When Sherm was outvoted, he
resigned and thereafter had no contact with the organization.
We didn't even know he'd died till several weeks after it
happened.

Sherm was basically a good guy, and he deserves credit for his
contributions, not censure on the fantastic and absurd grounds that
he was some kind of double agent.

>Finally, who was it who always had money to travel and seemed to
>be everywhere on the UFO scene, for decades?  Whose university
>would let him travel on the breaking news of a UFO sighting and
>yet held his job for decades?  Why, it was Allen Hynek!

Yup, it was indeed Allen Hynek.  The Air Force paid his way to
on-site investigations, though it often circumscribed his movements
once he got there.  (Socorro was a particularly frustrating experience

for him;  for details, see UFOE#2, "Socorro CE2/CE3," pp. 856-67.)
Later, after Blue Book canned him in early 1969, his travel expenses
 were covered by the organizations to which he often gave lectures.
Allen loved to travel, loved to meet new people, loved to eat in new
restaurants, loved to oggle good-looking women. In his heart he was
something of a kid.  He thoroughly enjoyed life, and he was always
fun to be around.

>Who was getting money from a "cut out" source, Dodge Corporation
>a subsidiary of McGraw Hill, even as he supposedly was working
>for the Air Force and could freely take money from THAT source?

Oh, give me a break.  In common with many scientists, Allen got
consulting fees from reference and encyclopedia publishers, to write
or advise.  Nothing sinister about this.  Jeez, _I_ get those, and I ain't
even a scientist, much less a secret agent.


>Take a look at those PROJECT SIGN papers (released twenty five
>years ago), at the curriculum vitae of Sherm Larson, first
>President of CUFOS.  And all of us must read Jacque Vallee's
>book "Forbidden Science" for crucial details about J. Allen
>Hynek, government agent extraordinaire.  It's all right out in
>the open, if you know how to look.  For example the cut out
>payments are described on pages 289-290.

>Folks, the UFO arena was and is very akin to a minefield.

Not just akin, but "_very_ akin"?  Is there a more overworked
adverb than "very"?

>That
>is, if you don't have a good map to the terrain you're
>eventually going to get blown up!

In that case, Gary has just been scattered to pieces.  This
is one of the dumbest postings I've ever seen.  Anybody
 who believes a word of it is nobody who needs to contact
me, ever.  Life is just too damn short for it to be wasted by
exposure to this sort of paranoid delirium.  I'd like to think
you're a better man, Gary, than what you've just written would
lead me to believe.

Head shaking at the dimensions of human folly and paranoia,

Jerry Clark






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 1

                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Peter Brookesmith - Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:49:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:54:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


Compliments of the Duke...

>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 12:06:50 PST


>> I haven't checked with Peter Rogerson (I suspect he is not
>> awake at the moment, 2:00am), but it's not impossible that
>> his comment - lovingly, repeatedly, and not entirely
>> atypically, quoted out of context by our mutual friend
>> Jerome Clark - was derived from a piece by Steve Mizrach


>Interesting to see that, as Peter B. informs us, I have quoted
>("not entirely atypically") Peter R. out of context,  he
>suggests as my source (for the weird fear-of-Hispanics abduction
>theory) a piece I hadn't read till just now, when PB posted it.

Jerry--

Look again at what I wrote. I suggest Mizrach may be Peter
Rogerson's source, not your source.

I had guessed you hadn't read Mizrach, as neither David Gottlieb
nor "BAE" appear in your encyclopedias. A curious omission,
perhaps something to put on your reading list for the 3rd
edition?

best wishes
Pepsinogen D. Monoblast
Beef on the Bone








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 1

                              Re: The Challenge

From: Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate <devilsad@ksinc.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:17:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:59:33 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


An open letter/rant to "abductionologists."


The recent, thought provoking discussion regarding the reason(s)
there are so few black/non-white abductees (or at least
_reports_ from people in these groups) in the American
literature brought me back to square one (which I never really
left in the first place, though I perhaps lost sight of it).

To the Hopkin-esque and Jacob-ian folks on the list, I ask:

__Can we be expected to rationally discuss the abduction
phenomenon as if it involves hundreds, thousands, or millions of
people being physically abducted by non-human beings when we
have no proof that any, much less the majority, of these
experiences are physically real?__

Here are some snips (ripped roughly and unpolished, but you'll
get the idea) from an article printed back in 1995 in the print
version of my mag "The Devil's Advocate" -
_________________________

"With all the talk about the countless acts of abductions of
humans performed by so-called alien beings, isn't it about time
to begin searching for physical evidence to support these
claims? We would like to present some very simple and
straightforward methods which could be used to attempt to
collect physical evidence of abductions. Before we begin we
should make clear our opinion that if attempts to collect
physical evidence fail, this would not necessarily prove that
abductions are dreams or products of imagination, but instead
would discount the theory that abductions are carried out
physical entities. Various other theories proposed (Persinger,
etc) could not be discounted because of a lack of this type of
physical evidence.

It's probable that these types of experiments have been
attempted by abductees and investigators in the past. The most
likely reason that the results were not published or made public
is because nothing was found, and the experimenters felt that
this fact would be used to support the claim that the
experiences were purely psychological in nature. By proposing
that these types of experiments be performed we are in no way
attempting to support a particular claim or prove a particular
theory, but instead we hope to gather information which may be
used to draw objective conclusions regarding the mystery of the
abduction phenomenon.

One of the most obvious ways to search for physical evidence
would be to use a motion sensitive camera. Devising a crude, but
effective motion sensitive camera should not be a challenge to
anyone with even a basic knowledge of electronics. Although we
have little knowledge of electronics, we feel we can safely say
that even a camcorder attached to a motion sensor, like the kind
used on outdoor lights, may be enough to get the job done. The
camera could be easily set up so that anything coming near the
bed of the abductee would set off the camera. To exclude the
possibility of the camera's presence being detected by the eyes
of an intruder, it could be easily concealed by hiding it where
it would not be obviously visible.

<snip>

The most important factor in this type of an experiment would be
the honesty of the abductee. They would have to agree beforehand
that any memory of an experience would be reported, even if this
experience resulted in no hard physical evidence. If the subject
should awaken with a memory of an experience during the previous
night, but fail to disclose this because of a lack of physical
evidence, the results would be biased and inconclusive. It seems
that devising a method in which the abductee could not review
the video tape would be the best solution to this problem.

Unlike some other aspects of the UFO phenomenon, the
opportunities to look for physical evidence of abductions are
clearly present. Before pro-alien abduction researchers start
slinging terms like "debunker" at those of us who attempt to
remain objective about the phenomenon, perhaps they should
attempt a few simple experiments and (gasp!) try to supply some
actual evidence to support their conclusions about the
extraterrestrial nature of abductions. Until they do, the E.T.
theory, like all others, will continue to be just a theory."
____________________

Since I first wrote this piece several years ago, I can think of
one group who actually claimed that they were going to do
exactly what I suggested in this article (it was a local/state
chapter of MUFON, actually). Excited as I was, it's been many
months and I've heard nothing new regarding the experiment. Was
it dropped in the planning stage?

Before you think I've written off every contact case ever
reported, hold on now, because even as I become more and more
jaded regarding the ufo and abduction phenomena, there are still
a _few_ contact cases which continue to intrigue me. Mostly
these are cases which don't fit the typical jacob/hopkins'
abduction stereotype, but I won't go off into that here. My
point is that I still think there have been some (as stan would
say, underline the "some" about 10 times) cases of contact which
actually involve _some sort_ of nonhuman intelligence, and my
mind is still open to such cases. But don't come up to me and
tell me you know 2 dozen abductees, or that by expanding the
roper poll and inserting the drake equation, you've discovered
that 18 quazibillion abductees exist in the galaxy. If that's
what you're selling, I'll be over here *as he points to the
psychosocial corner* watching for the mothership.

I'm quite sure that this missive will go ignored by the folks
who would have us believe in the physical reality of massive
numbers of abductions, just as it has in the past, but just in
case, here it is. Thoughtful and sane comments/feedback of all
types appreciated.

Best,
Tim Brigham

)+(
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck
)+(








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 2

                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:42:59 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:02:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 12:06:50 PST

>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:53:02 -0500
>>From: Mendoza - Peter Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 14:36:51 -0500
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza:

>>I haven't checked with Peter Rogerson (I suspect he is not
>>awake at the moment, 2:00am), but it's not impossible that
>>his comment - lovingly, repeatedly, and not entirely
>>atypically, quoted out of context by our mutual friend
>>Jerome Clark - was derived from a piece by Steve Mizrach
>>first published in the "Bulletin of Anomalous Phenomena" Vol
>>5 #3 (1994). In the interests of sanity - fat chance - I'm
>>pasting this piece below.


>Interesting to see that, as Peter B. informs us, I have quoted
>("not entirely atypically") Peter R. out of context,  he
>suggests as my source (for the weird fear-of-Hispanics abduction
>theory) a piece I hadn't read till just now, when PB posted it.
>Interesting, too, that Peter R., who after all wrote the damn
>thing that sparked the merriment in the first place, has never
>accused me of misquoting him, atypically or otherwise.  With
>atypical lack  of imagination, 'owever, he did call me a "true
>believer" after I'd had some fun at his expense for it in an IUR
>editorial.

>Cheers,

>Jerry Clark

Jerry, when are you going to read properly what's in front of
you, whether it's John Harney on Travis Walton or Peter
Brookesmith on Peter Rogerson? Brookesmith is saying that
_Rogerson_ may have been influenced by the piece he has posted,
not you!

--





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   Dec > Dec 2

                  {97} part 4 - United Kingdom UFO Network

From: Lloyd Bayliss <lloyd@POWER-AGE.DEMON.CO.UK>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:15:45 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:10:12 -0500
Subject: {97} part 4 - United Kingdom UFO Network

        ______ _______ ______
------ /  /  //  ____//     /---------------------------------------
 U K  /  /  //  ___/ /  /  /                        30 November 1998
     /  /  //  /    /  /  /  N E T W O R K           part 4 Issue 97
--- (_____//__/    (_____/------------------------------------------

The United Kingdom UFO Network - a free electronic magazine with
subscribers in over 40 countries.

This issue comes in 4 parts. If any part is missing please mail:
ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk giving the issue number. The issue will be
reposted to you. Please put the details as below in the subject
section e.g.  Repost {97} part 1, part 2 etc.


[UK 7]******  West Midlands Police Officer & the disappearing star

uk.ufo.nw would like to thank Bob a West Midlands Police Officer for
the below report.

At 9.15pm on Monday 19th October 1998 Bob was standing at the front of
his house in Eastern Green, Coventry. After waving his wife goodbye
he looked into the night sky.

There was a whispery cloud layer but so thin that the stars could
clearly be seen behind. Bob lives approximately 8 miles from
Birmingham International Airport and 8 miles from Coventry Airport.
He stated that there were a number of aircraft high in the sky. This
was not unusual for the area and he was used to seeing this type of
normal activity on a regular basis.

As he looked straight up at 90 degrees he saw a stationary white star
that looked no different from any other star. Within a second or two
the 'star' shot up and out of sight extremely quickly. Bob said that
in all his years as a police officer he had never experienced anything
like it before.

"I have seen shooting stars and the like shoot across the sky before
but never straight up" he said.



[UK 8]******  Strange Sighting, Can You Help?

From: ASouthSPK@aol.com

Please can you help me to understand a very strange experience that
occured last night? I was coming home from Cambridge along the A425
at about 10.50pm after going to the pictures with a friend. When all
of a sudden, My friend Judy and I became aware of distracting lights
to the left of us.

As Judy was driving, to her left was what I can only describe as a
swirling see-through cloud, that almost looked like the centre of a
twister, however within this cloud (which was only about 500yrds
above us to the left were bright circles of white light (about 12-18).

As we came to a junction and turned direction, to go the opposite way,
this cloud of bright lights followed us for a couple of miles, low
down and darting from the left to right side of the car. By this time
we were very frightned, it was completely noiseless, and even though
the cirles of lights were bright, they did not project beams of light,
and neither could you see through them, unlike the cloud they were set
within.

I reported our sighting to the Cambridge police station, and they said
there were no lazer displays within the area, or helecopters etc. To
be quite honest I felt stupid reporting it, but desperatly seeking for
a logical explanation. I consider myself to be a mature buisness women,
who certainly do not believe in UFO's, but this incident is lacking
reasonalble explanation. Please could you contact me , if anybody else
has had this same experience, or if you have a logical/scientific
explanation for this event. The fact that it kept so close to us and
even followed us as we changed direction, is beyond comprehension.


Yours sincerely


Andrea Southgate-Spark

{
uk.ufo.nw. says...  If anyone can help, please mail Andrea direct or
mail us here at ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk or lloyd@power-age.demon.co.uk
}

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----------===============******************===============----------

World News
==========

[W 1]******  Edgar Mitchell: US Covers Up Aliens For 50 Years

From: bernhard.nahrgang@ob.kamp.net (Bernhard Nahrgang)

The Sunday Times - Edgar Mitchell: US Covers Up Aliens For 50 Years
By Tom Rhodes
The Sunday Times (London)
10-11-98

NEW YORK -- There are no little green men on the moon. Edgar Mitchell
knows this because in 1971 he became the sixth man to walk on it. He is
positive, however, that aliens have landed on Earth.

Sharing the podium at a conference in Connecticut yesterday with "alien
abductees" and others who claim to have had contact with unidentified
flying objects (UFOs), the former Nasa astronaut intensified his
campaign to persuade Washington to acknowledge life beyond our skies.

Mitchell argues that life is almost certain to exist on any other planet
with a supportive environment. Some physicists, he points out, now
believe it is possible to travel faster than light, even if humble
earthlings have yet to achieve it.

He is 90% certain that many of the thousands of UFOs recorded since the
1940s belonged to visitors from another planet. Although some have been
delusions and others natural phenonema, too many remain unexplained, he
said. "This suggests there are humanoids manning craft which have
characteristics not in the arsenal of any nation on earth that we know
of. That is very alarming," he said.

It was a startling departure for a scientist who, up to now, has been
wary of appearing with ufologists widely regarded as cranks.

"Until recently I was very cautious about such conferences," Mitchell,
68, admitted before the opening of an annual convention entitled the UFO
Experience. "But now I believe there is sufficient circumstantial
evidence to warrant a scientific understanding in this area."

Mitchell, who holds a doctorate from the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology, does not fit easily into the ranks of the UFO fanatics.
Although he acts as a consultant to The X Files, the cult television
series, he is scornful of "disinformation" about aliens and flying
saucers that emanates from the Internet and marginal UFO organisations
in America.

"The notion that there are structures on Mars or the moon is bonkers,"
Mitchell said. "I can certainly attest to the latter - I've been there.
We saw no structures at the landing site and none was reflected in my
helmet, as has been alleged."

Mitchell bases his credo on established cosmology - in which he became
closely involved after gazing at his tiny, distant planet from the
command module of Apollo 14. He felt "an overwhelming sense of universal
connectedness and perceived the universe as in some way conscious".

In the early 1970s, after leaving Nasa, he founded the Institute of
Noetic Sciences in California. Dedicated to the study of psychic and
spiritual phenomena, it subjected luminaries such as Uri Geller, the
Israeli spoon bender, to scientific scrutiny.

Mitchell says his research - including conversations with people who
have worked in intelligence agencies and military groups - has convinced
him that the American government has covered up the truth about UFOs for
50 years. He is trying to persuade Congress to grant his sources
immunity to tell "the real story" of events such as the so-called
Roswell incident - the alleged crash of a flying saucer in New Mexico in
1947.

"Many of these folks were under high-security clearances, they took
oaths and they feel they cannot talk without some form of immunity,"
Mitchell said. "It takes a brave person to come out on something like
this."

A poll by Time magazine last year suggested that 22% of the population
share Mitchell's conviction that other planets have been in contact with
humans; 17% said intelligent life had abducted humans to experiment on
them.

The high level of interest has encouraged other speakers at this
weekend's conference. They include Robert Wood, a retired aerospace
engineer from California, who claims to have new evidence of the
existence of MJ12, a clandestine military unit trained in recovery and
disposal of aliens and their craft.

The true believers could hardly conceal their delight at the former
astronaut's endorsement. Walter Andrus, international director of the
Mutual UFO Network, the largest organisation of its kind in America,
said: "There's no doubt in my mind that Ed Mitchell gives us all
credibility."

---

[W 2]******

From: Carnado <bernhard.nahrgang@ob.kamp.net>

NASA Explores Magnetic Levitation
By David Whitehouse
Science Editor BBC News Online Sci/Tech
10-7-98

Scientists with the US space agency Nasa have taken an old idea as they
try to develop new ways of travelling into space.

They hope magnetic levitation - or maglev - could help launch spacecraft
into orbit using magnets to float a space vehicle along a track.

The concept is already widely used in amusement parks and Nasa has
enlisted the help of a fairground ride manufacturer, along with a
university in the UK.

Magnetic levitation uses an ordinary electrical motor which normally
converts electricity into rotary energy.

But in this case the motor - formed from magnets - is unrolled so that
it is flat.

If a metal object is then held above the spaced-out magnets, it will
float in the air, levitated by the magnetic fields.

Cut-price space travel

Nasa experts believe that magnetic levitation could slash the cost of
space travel.

The agency's Advanced Space Transportation Program at the Marshall Space
Fight Center in Alabama is behind the project.

"Magnetic levitation is a promising technology for future space
transportation as we build the highway to space," said Garry Lyles,
manager of the Advanced Space Transportation Program.

"The most expensive part of any mission to low-Earth orbit is the first
few seconds - getting off the ground. Maglev is a low-cost alternative
for space transportation because it leaves the first-stage propulsion
system on the ground."

High-strength magnets are already used to lift and propel high-speed
trains and roller coasters a couple of inches above a guideway.

A maglev launch-assist system would be used to drive a space vehicle
down a track in a similar way, but at speeds of 600mph.

A rocket engine would then take over to enable spacecraft to reach
orbit.

"A maglev system is virtually maintenance-free because it has no moving
parts and there's no contact," said Mr Lyles.

"It could help launch a spacecraft from a typical airport runway to
low-Earth orbit every 90 minutes."

Large scale

Experiments to test the theory have been carried out the University of
Sussex in England.

In a laboratory there, a two-feet-long sled is propelled at 120mph along
a 20-feet electromagnetic track.

Motors for the experiment were developed by PRT and funded by Arrow
Dynamics Inc.of Utah, an amusement ride manufacturer.

As part of a larger scale experiment in 1999, two longer tracks
measuring 50 and 400 feet are planned in Huntsville.

Design plans will soon be completed for a 5,000-foot track capable of
launching a 40,000lb payload at a test site.

Some scientists believe that as early as 2007, a maglev launch assist
system could be used to launch very small communications satellites for
thousands of dollars per pound, far cheaper than current costs.

---

[W 3]******

From: Carnado <bernhard.nahrgang@ob.kamp.net>

Space Coast UFO Conference Luminaries Rip NASA And The News Media
By Billy Cox
Florida Today
10-11-98

COCOA BEACH, Fla. - Although NASA made an easy target during Friday
afternoon's opening session of the Space Coast UFO Conference at the
Hilton, the most rousing applause erupted after a swipe at the news
media.

Several hundred listeners gathered for an event billed as the NASA
Forum, which - for the first time, according to conference sponsors -
featured a space agency representative, Thomas Howard Smith.

But UFO researcher/author Stanton Friedman scored a crowd pleaser when
he charged, during the question-and-answer session, "If any newspaper
spent one-fifth of what they've spent (investigating) Monica Lewinsky,
we'd have the answers to flying saucers."

Twenty years ago, Friedman, a nuclear physicist whose contracts included
classified projects, was the first to investigate the 1947 accounts of a
controversial crash in the New Mexico desert. Now popularized as the
Roswell Incident, that event has become what Friedman contends was the
beginning of a "Cosmic Watergate" engineered by the military and
civilian intelligence machinery.

But with a NASA rep sitting at his elbow, Friedman couldn't resist
venting some frustration at the space agency - "we don't have a project,
we don't have goals" - and he wondered what happened to the UFO data
supposedly collected by NASA's predecessor, the National Advisory
Committee for Aeronautics.

Smith, a space station and human exploration specialist, preferred to
talk about NASA's more conventional history and a discussion of upcoming
projects. He described himself as a "sympathetic nonbeliever" who wasn't
here "to deliver any kind of revelation. It would be fine. It would also
be career limiting," he added, provoking laughter.

Forum panelist Vincent DiPietro also had a major bone to pick with NASA.
A senior systems engineer employed as a contractor at Goddard Space
Flight Center for 23 years, DiPietro was the first to study enigmatic
Martian surface features photographed during the 1976 Viking mission.

Citing a September Space News report on the growing number of planetary
scientists disgruntled over the slow release of photo data from the
ongoing Mars Global Surveyor project, DiPietro suggested compelling new
images were being consciously withheld.

DiPietro criticized MGS camera operator Michael Malin, whose contract
gives him a six-month proprietary embargo on the images. He said other
scientists reported Malin had taken numerous pictures of the so-called
Face on Mars, other than the single one released to NASA in April that
appeared to reflect natural terrain rather than artificial features.

"This leads me to believe we are not getting all the facts from Malin
Enterprises," DiPietro said.

But not all the barbs came from the panelists; the audience took their
shots, too.

One man asked Smith a question he said he couldn't get NASA
Administrator Dan Goldin to answer several years ago during a public
forum: "When (are you) going to tell the public about the UFO presence?"
The perplexed Smith replied, "The next time I play golf with him, I'll
ask him."

Another exasperated audience member wondered where the space agency's
curiosity was when it came to UFOs, given the level of public interest.
"I've never heard a NASA official say, `Y'know, this is interesting." '

Friedman said the problem was with "ancient academics and fossilized
physicists" and "a failure of leadership."

"It takes guts to say, `I don't know' or, `that's interesting,' as you
suggest."

The Space Coast UFO Conference, sponsored by Project Awareness of Gulf
Breeze, continues its lineup of speakers and workshops today and Sunday.
---

[W 4]****** Australian UFO sightings

From: Philip Macqueen <philmac@eis.net.au>

Hi

I'm new to this stuff apart from 2 personal sightings.

But what I want is an address of a UFO group in Australia, or perhaps
a list of sightings on certain days in the past 25 to 30 years in
Australia.

I'm trying to get some info about what I believe to be a reliable
sighting about 28 years ago in central Queeensland.

Please advise of any links

Phil

{
uk.ufo.nw says...  If anyone has any info, either send it on to Phil
or mail us and we'll forward it to him for you.
}

---

[W 5]******  Fired From The Museum

{
uk.ufo.nw thanks John Hayes for forwarding this document.
}

This message is forwarded with the permission of Dennis Balthaser.
Please note Dennis stated that he has nothing against the museum.


Subj:                  FIRED FROM THE MUSEUM
Date:                 98-10-29 10:17:31 EST
From:                 truthskr@roswell.net (Dennis Balthaser)
Reply-to:             truthskr@roswell.net

This correspondence will serve as a blanket notification that on
October 28, 1998, Glenn Dennis (President of the International UFO
Museum and Research Center) in Roswell, NM, told me to sever all
relationships with the Museum and I was not to be affiliated with the
Museum anymore. As most of you know I have in the past been on the
Board of Directors, was the Operations Manager and most recently the
UFO Investigator. All three of those positions were very rewarding,
always putting the interest of the Museum, the witnesses and visitors
in the forefront. That meant doing and saying things that at times
were not agreeable to everyone. By being fired I learned very
graphically you do not "buck the Glenn Dennis system" of doing
things. I have no regrets for anything I did at the Museum during the
past two years, as I think the results speak for themselves. Because
of the current leadership of the Museum (Glenn Dennis, Glenda Shafer,
certain board members and certain volunteers)the Museum will probably
continue to be a tourist attraction, but does not appear to have the
leadership to develop it into the potential it should have. Having a
collection of 45,000 items in the library, fills up bookcases and
shelves, but is of no value as long as the people in charge have no
knowledge of ufology and present the attitude that discourages
serious researchers from becoming involved. I will inform the
webmaster to remove all of my information from the Museum website,
since I was told to sever all relationships with the Museum. Those
that remain dedicated to the Museum I wish well.

In addition to me being fired, Laura Stephey who was hired in
January, 1998 to work in the library, was also fired yesterday. She
had something special in a sincere desire to learn and be involved
not only in the library but the subject of ufology in research and
investigation. I understand the reason for being fired was not
because of her work, but because she unfortunately had some medical
problems and endured stress at work which became overwhelming.

I will continue to do research, investigations and lectures, so I ask
that you keep in touch. The truth is out there if the right people
look for it.

Dennis G. Balthaser
(505)625 8402  email <truthskr@roswell.net>
http://members.aol.com/cellyst/
[END MESSAGE]


John Hayes

jhayes@cableinet.co.uk
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

----------===============******************===============----------

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#####






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 2

               Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald

From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:20:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:15:38 -0500
Subject: Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald


>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:36:29 -0500
>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>Subject: A Bit More 1950s UFO History: The Role Of Dr. James McDonald


>A Bit More 1950s UFO History: The Role Of Dr. James McDonald

Actually this seems to concentrate more on Hynek.

<snip>

>truly puzzling UFO reports. Now, who had been "scientific
>advisor" to the "Air Force" for more than twenty years? And who
>had issued, over and over again, seemingly authoritative
>"explanations" for UFO incidents, "explanations" that had the
>effect of holding good professionals up to ridicule and
>retarding any progress on certain UFO fronts? Why, the answer to

<snip>

>paragraph, as we know. Now, who sat in on all of those sessions
>and continued as the Air Force's SOLE official "scientific"
>spokesman in this area? Why it was J. Allen Hynek!

>Can one really believe that one day he simply "woke up" and
>decided to change his position? Well, it was mighty convenient,
>wasn't it, since it followed a debunking effort so obviously
>bogus that it made him a national laughing stock. This is the
>aforementioned episode where Hynek attributed UFO sightings by
>law officers, college students and others in Michigan to "swamp
>gas". This disaster led then Congressman of Michigan, Gerald
>Ford, to call for a Congressional investigation of UFOs. As for
>Hynek, well, we know today moral turpitude is no obstacle to
>continued public service in this country, is it? >

>How hard is it to lock up the "agent status" of a personage in
>the UFO arena? In the case of Dr. Hynek, its easy. That is, in
>the 1950s Dr. Hynek filed Top Secret reports on his fellow
>astronomers, reports that were classified and only became public
>in the middle 1970s, a quarter-century later, when PROJECT SIGN
>papers were released. In those same documents is the statement,
>from Hynek himself (!), that Dr. Lincoln La Paz, of the
>University of New Mexico, the meteor expert who had helped
>investigate the "green fireballs," thought that Dr. Hynek was
>part "of a major cover-up." La Paz was still fuming in 1964
>about the way the earlier investigation had been handled by SIGN
>and Hynek.>>

>Who worked for PROJECTS SAUCER, SIGN and GRUDGE and alone
>survived SIGN/Grudge purge in 1949? Why it was Allen Hynek!>

>Who started a brand new UFO organization, right after NICAP was
>destroyed from within by CIA psychological warfare operatives,
>and put a former Counterintelligence Corps (CIC) member, Sherm
>Larson, in charge of the new organization, CUFOS? Few then knew
>of the crucial role the CIC played in the early history of the
>UFO, except for security cleared insiders participating in
>investigations of UFOs. Who knew this? Well, Dr. Hynek
>certainly did!

>Finally, who was it who always had money to travel and seemed to
>be everywhere on the UFO scene, for decades? Whose university
>would let him travel on the breaking news of a UFO sighting and
>yet held his job for decades? Why, it was Allen Hynek!>

>Who was getting money from a "cut out" source, Dodge Corporation
>a subsidiary of McGraw Hill, even as he supposedly was working
>for the Air Force and could freely take money from THAT source?
>This is documented by none other than his 'protegee', Jacques
>Vallee, in Vallee's book/memoir of Vallee's early experience in
>the investigation of the UFO, 'Forbidden Science'. Vallee also
>repeatedly comments n the ease with which Hynek moved around the
>country, turning his classes over to others at the drop of a hat
>to investigate what, UFOs? Yet his position was never in
>danger.

>All of this material is on the public record and has been for
>years!

>Take a look at those PROJECT SIGN papers (released twenty five
>years ago), at the curriculum vitae of Sherm Larson, first
>President of CUFOS. And all of us must read Jacque Vallee's
>book "Forbidden Science" for crucial details about J. Allen
>Hynek, government agent extraordinaire. It's all right out in
t>he open, if you know how to look. For example the cut out
>payments are described on pages 289-290.>

>Folks, the UFO arena was and is very akin to a minefield. That
>is, if you don't have a good map to the terrain you're
>eventually going to get blown up!


Aw, gee, Gary. Allen was such a nice guy. He even stayed at my
house once. And now you're saying he was part of the cover up?
Well, it probably is true that he knew more than he told anyone.

From the point of view of scientists he, at best,. lent some
measure of credibiliy to the field of UFO research (I know I'll
get a lot of response to this!).

From the point of view of UFO researchers he was, at best, a
decoy to draw attention from the really hot stuff (as was Blue
Book).

I can certainly recall that there was no 'love' for Hynek at
NICAP and everyone figured he got his come-uppins when the press
lampooned his swamp gas explanation. It wasn't until years later
that he began to be treated as a ufologist as opposed to a
government agent/employee.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 2

                        Blather: Non-temperance Zone

From: Daev Walsh - Blather <daev@blather.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 21:58:03 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:22:12 -0500
Subject: Blather: Non-temperance Zone

_______________________________________________________
NiceOne - Ireland's No.1 Internet Directory
NiceOne provides access to over 4,000 Irish Websites
supporting Irish products & Services on the World Wide Web.
(http://www.niceone.com)
______________________________________________________
B  L  A  T  H  E  R

p a r a n o r m a l   p r o v o c a t e u r i s m

By Dave (daev) Walsh daev@blather.net
Web: http://www.blather.net
_______________________________________________________
November 27th 1998, Dublin, Ireland   Vol 2. No. 29
_______________________________________________________

NON-TEMPERANCE ZONE

Nuclear physicist and U.S. cable TV presenter (of *Mysteries
from Beyond the Other Dominion*), Dr. Franklin Ruehl contacted
Blather this week, to ask:

'Did ETs zap the Deep Space 1 ion engine? Were alien remote
viewers involved in this act of extraterrestrial sabotage? Would
this be a possible item for Blather?'

The very nature of the last question ensured its inclusion in
this week's issue.

Dr. Ruehl forwarded Blather an article from *Wireless Flash*
which covers his claim of sabotage, and his theories on how the
probe was disabled using *either* lasers or 'psychic powers'.
The motive? Ruehl reckons that the space brothers don't like
pesky earthlings nosing around in their stuff, specifically
Asteroid 1992 KD, 'because it may be the site of an alien
outpost'.

There's not a shred of, dare we mention it, *evidence* to go
along with these claims... or if there is, the good doctor isn't
showing his hand. Not that this an isolated incident - we note
that in Fortean Times 64:42 (August/September 1992), Steve Moore
made a sharp retort towards Dr. Ruehl's claims of space-alien
involvement in the construction of the Sphinx. Back in October
this year he piped up with the engaging concept of 'ghosts of
dead aliens' haunting the alleged and infamous crash-site at
Roswell, New Mexico. Peter Gilstrap wryly mentions that 'Ruehl
has written countless columns and articles for noted scientific
publications' such as the *National Enquirer*, the *Sun*, the
*Weekly World News*, and the *National Examiner*.

So why would Dr. Ruehl come seeking support from Blather, a
publication not known for its temperance, sympathy or charity
towards 'Saucerheads' or unfounded claims of an extraterrestrial
nature? Perhaps, as a certain Himalayan columnist said to
Blather recently - 'Some people just don't get it'.

Meanwhile, NASA's *Deep Space 1* press release of November 25th
makes no mention of extraterrestrial involvement, merely
mentioning that such shutdowns are unsurprising for new ion
propulsion units, and that the 'engine probably shut itself off
when it was started two weeks ago because of metallic grit or
other contamination between the two high-voltage grids at the
rear of the advanced engine.'

So, metallic grit or aliens?

REFERENCES Email from Dr. Franklin Ruehl to Blather, Saturday
November 28th 1998

UFO Researcher: 'E.T.s may have sabotaged engine on NASA Probe'
*Wireless Flash* VX3 for Monday, November 16th, 1998
(http://flashnews.com/)


*Deep Space 1 Ion Propulsion System Starts Up*
(ftp://ftp.hq.nasa.gov/pub/pao/pressrel/1998/98-215.txt)

NASA Deep Space 1 official site
http://nmp.jpl.nasa.gov/ds1/

The Unofficial Mysteries From Beyond the Other Dominion Webpage
(http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/1306/)

*Martians and Ghosts and Conspiracies -- Oh My!*
Will Dr. Franklin Ruehl find fame through the paranormal?
Peter Gilstrap, *The New Times Los Angeles*, July 16th 1998
(http://newtimesla.com/1998/071698/gilstrap1.html)

*Ghosts of dead aliens haunting Roswell crash site?*
(http://www.globetrax.com/globedaily/content/101298_05.html)

Saucerheads [(c) Bruce Lanier Wright]




INDOMITABLE IRISHRY
Despite worrying our little heads about the price of cultural
stereotyping, the tax-free wages of sin, and stage-Hibernianism,
Blather has decided to resurrect the Hon. Declan Foley's
take on last year's Sligo UFO hoax, when great black triangles were
reported to have been seen by the mother of 'Hans Rosenthal' near W.B.
Yeat's grave in Drumcliffe (turns out that 'Hans Rosenthal' was the
name of an apparent acquaintance of Yeats in Paris).
Although exiled in places Antipodean, Mr. Foley seems to be a native
of Co. Sligo.


From: Declan Foley <dfoley@netstra.com.au
Subject: re: Rare sighting of UFO by Hans Rosenthal's mamma.

Deer surs,
Dem two eejits dat replied to Paddy Bruen and Austie Gillen is the
greatest pare of lyres I ever heard in me life. The ony time dey were
on the strand was when there mudders took dem be the hand, and dats a
fact!

Dis hear UFO yer man is talkin about was seen be meself and Dermot
McLoughlin, the retired cemetery Superintendent from Sligo Cemetery.
He was opening a grave in Drumcliffe one moonlit night in October of
1985, I tink, it cudda been '86. Anyway, I was sitting on a flag
headstone supervising him. When the bloody tombstone heaved up with a
groan, and a voice said "Yer to bloody heavy to sit here, Feck off
somewhere else" McLoughlin looked over and asked who said dat?.
I couldn't answer I was so dumfounded.

The next thing we saw was the door in Ben Bulben Mountain opening and
out come about five thousand horses with men riding them, spears in
hand and them whooping and yahooing like nobody's business. Some had a
fine cut of a woman attached to them! Ye know yerself!!
Then we saw the ghost of "Mind your own business" from Mail Coach Rd.,
coming along on the stagecoach with a headless driver. The coach
stopped beside us and the headless driver said "We are going to
Austie's for a drink, he is concocting a magic lantern to show UFO's
to frighten the shite" out of the Americans, especially the relatives
of Mrs Rosenthal.

And this is the factual story of what those people saw that fateful
day. There is absolutely no truth that any army other than the FCA
were involved [Irish Reserves]. The Irish Army were on their annual
leave in the High Court claiming compensation under the Blind Pensions
Act of 1654. The Garda Siochana in Sligo/Leitrim had all rang in with
Blue Flu - Moya!

Sworn on a stack of bibles, skool books(dog-eared), grandmother's
graves, grandfather's graves etc. etc.
PS I have a selection of false teeth left over from my embalming days,
Suit all sizes of mouths - big to small, send a stamped addressed
package and two hundred [Australian] dollars.
For more info on the headless horseman, Blind Paddy Healy, Caruson
Finan and others please contact the undersigned -
x


NOTES
*Beyond Ben Bulben* - Declan Foley's site
(http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/7873/)

*Under Ben Bulben* by W.B. Yeats
(http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/ReadingRoom/Poetry/Yeats/under-ben-bu
lben)

Blather's *Sligo UFO Hoax page*
(http://www.blather.net/archives/sligo/index.html)



HAIL ERIS! DEATH OF A DISCORDIAN NONPROPHET

On November 28th, 1998, the reported death occurred in Atlanta,
Georgia of Kerry Thornley, a.k.a. Omar Khayyam Ravenhurst
and Ho Chi Zen, co-author of the *Principia Discordia*, and an
acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald - they served in the same U.S.
Marine platoon. In 1968, Thornley was accused of involvement in
the Kennedy assassination by Jim Garrison, the notorious District
Attorney of New Orleans. He was a co-founder, with Greg Hill, of the
of the Discordian Society, 'which is based on the worship of Eris,
the Goddess of Chaos, discord, confusion, bureaucracy and
international relations. They have no dogmas, but one catma. The
catma is that everything in the universe relates to the number 5, one
way or another, given enough ingenuity on the part of the
interpreter' (Pope RAW).


'And so it is that we, as men, do not exist until we do; and then it
is that we play with our world of existent things, and order and
disorder them, and so it shall be that non-existence shall take us
back from existence and that nameless spirituality shall return to
Void, like a tired child home from a very wild circus.'
(*Principia Discordia*)


Kerry Thornley website
(http://www.sondralondon.com/new/thornley/thornley.html)

Interview with Robert Anton Wilson which adds fuel to the Discordian
fire.
(http://www.levity.com/mavericks/raw.htm)
from *Firing the Cosmic Trigger*
(http://www.levity.com/mavericks/raw-int.htm)

ZENARCHY by Kerry Thornley
(http://www.mindspring.com/~jstoner/detour/)

*The Principia Discordia*
(How I Found Goddess & What I Did To Her When I found Her)
(ascii)
(http://www.hellshaw.com/info/discord.html)

*The Principia Discordia*
(How I Found Goddess & What I Did To Her When I found Her)
(html and graphics)
(http://www.junkpile.demon.co.uk/principia.htm)
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   Dec > Dec 2

                   Keeping the Legacy of a Professor Alive

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 19:11:03 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:37:51 -0500
Subject: Keeping the Legacy of a Professor Alive


Soruce:

http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/120198sci-sagan-sidebar.html

--

November 30, 1998


Keeping the Legacy of a Professor Alive


Related Article Even in Death, Carl Sagan's Influence Is Still
Cosmic Expanded Coverage of Science and Health


By WILLIAM J. BROAD

arl Sagan's legacy lives on in the popularization of science as
well as in the practice of it. For instance, Bill Nye, "the
science guy" who is the host of popular science television
programs for children, took an astronomy course from Sagan at
Cornell University and consulted with him after graduation on
how to shape a science-communications career.

"He used to come into class with astonishing pictures from
Mars," Nye recalled. "He made quite an impression on me."

The Planetary Society, a group in Pasadena, Calif., that
promotes space exploration and publishes a bimonthly magazine,
The Planetary Report, was founded in 1980 by Sagan and two other
scientists, Bruce Murray and Louis Friedman, who are still
advancing the cause.

"He had an enormous influence," said Murray, a planetary
scientist at the California Institute of Technology. "He was
such an extraordinary communicator and popularizer."

Many writers claim to have been touched by Sagan, including his
son, Dorion, a science journalist and the co-author, with Lynn
Margulis, of "Microcosmos" (Summit, 1986), "Garden of Microbial
Delights" (Kendall-Hunt, 1995), "What is Life?" (Simon &
Schuster, 1995) and "What Is Sex?" (Simon & Schuster, 1997). Ms.
Margulis is a biologist at the University of Massachusetts, Dr.
Sagan's first wife and Dorion Sagan's mother.

Sagan's closest literary collaborator was his third wife, Ann
Druyan, a novelist who worked with him on "Contact" (Simon &
Schuster, 1985) and wrote with him "Comet" (Random House, 1985),
an overview of what science knows about these icy visitors from
outer space, and "Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors," (Random
House, 1992), a look at human origins.

Druyan said she is working on several science films and
television shows. She also gives talks and advises charitable
groups. On Nov. 17, she spoke at Washington National Cathedral
on what science knows about the cosmos.

"Among the things he gave me was a deeper respect for truth,"
she said in an interview.

"You have to have rigor and discipline, and he helped me develop
that. I absolutely maintain that the closer you got to Carl, the
more impressive he was, unlike some public figures. Knowing him
was the signal honor of my life."


Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
   Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
---------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------








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                   Even in Death, Sagan's Influence Cosmic

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 19:00:47 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:34:37 -0500
Subject: Even in Death, Sagan's Influence Cosmic


Source:

http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/120198sci-sagan.html


November 30, 1998

Even in Death, Carl Sagan's Influence Is Still Cosmic

Related Article Keeping the Legacy of a Professor Alive Expanded
Coverage of Science and Health


By WILLIAM J. BROAD

wo weeks before he died, Dr. Carl Sagan dropped by to see Daniel
S. Goldin, the NASA Administrator. Sagan was deathly ill. His
blue jeans hung limp. He had no hair. His losing battle against
the bone-marrow disease myelodysplasia had taken a heavy toll.



Reuters

Carl Sagan, with a Mars model, helped lead the hunt for aliens
and still wields great influence through his students.

But his mind was ablaze.

For an hour or two in Goldin's office at the Washington
headquarters of the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, Dr. Sagan, the astronomer, laid out a series of
visions about the future of space exploration. So lively was the
discussion that the two men continued it over dinner in nearby
Georgetown.

"He was talking with intensity," Mr. Goldin marveled. "A man on
his deathbed. This is the Carl Sagan I love, a man so full of
hope and optimism that he never gave up. He never gave up."

That meeting was the last of dozens between Sagan and Goldin,
who credits the astronomer with major NASA initiatives for this
century and the next.

When Sagan died two years ago this month at age 62, most
eulogies focused on his career in popularizing science and
conveying the wonders of the universe to millions of people. But
in addition to his celebrity, or perhaps even despite it, Sagan
was a serious and gifted researcher who pushed back the
frontiers of planetary science, molded a number of gifted
students and wielded great influence behind the scenes in
Washington. Time and again he came to the rescue of the
politically beleaguered search for intelligent life in the
universe.

So today his legacy lives on, most especially in the actual
doing of science and space exploration, areas where his =E9lan was
mostly unknown to people who read his books and watched his
television shows. Most centrally, his legacy is addressing one
of Dr. Sagan's most durable curiosities -- the riddle of whether
life exists beyond Earth.

As NASA prepares to mount thorough explorations of the two most
likely sites in the solar system, Mars and Europa, it is Sagan's
prot=E9g=E9s who are in charge. Indeed, his greatest student may be
one who never took a class, Goldin, the commander of this star
fleet.


Agence France-Presse

DANIEL S. GOLDIN The NASA Administrator, center, credits Dr.
Sagan with NASA initiatives focusing on Mars and Europa in this
century and the next to address the riddle of whether life
exists beyond earth. "Carl," he said, "was the key player."


Of those who did take courses, one of the top students was
Steven W. Squyres, 42. Now a Cornell University professor,
Squyres chairs a 15-person NASA advisory committee on
exploration of the solar system.

He also heads a 20-member NASA team designing a Martian rover
meant to land on the planet in 2003, probe its terrain, drill
into hard volcanic rock and fire samples back to Earth. From the
rocky samples, scientists hope to extract Martian microbes,
either fossil or extant, proving the reality of aliens.

Squyers said his scientific skills owe much to Sagan, including
a knack for knowing what to ignore and what to watch. "In light
of his marvelous communication skills, lots of people lose sight
of how he was also a hell of a physicist," Dr. Squyres said.
"His work could be brilliant," and brilliantly presented. "Carl
was able to show you how to cut to the heart of the matter. That
was the most important thing he ever taught me," Squyres said.

Another top student is Christopher F. Chyba, 39. For NASA, he is
probing even farther into the hinterlands.

He chairs a 12-person panel drafting plans for a spacecraft that
the agency in 2003 wants to fire toward Europa, a large moon of
Jupiter whose icy, cracked surface hints strongly of an interior
ocean. NASA and many scientists want to know if the sea exists
and if alien life thrives in its inky depths.

Chyba said one of most important lessons Sagan taught him was
the value of raw curiosity. "He had a willingness to address a
broad sweep of issues, even if you couldn't always get answers,"
he said.

Brash and brilliant, a poor kid aiming high, Dr. Sagan entered
the University of Chicago in 1951 at age 16, got a bachelor's
degree in liberal arts in 1954 and one in physics in 1955, a
master's in physics in 1956 and a Ph.D. in astronomy and
astrophysics in 1960, ready to shake up his field.

Astronomy at the time was in love with stars and suspicious of
planets, whose study had produced an embarrassment of false
claims early in the century about dying civilizations on Mars.
But Dr. Sagan was deeply curious about extraterrestrial life and
pursued the topic with vigor, prodding others to do the same. He
was rigorous, despite his enthusiasm. One of his credos, often
repeated by experts, was "extraordinary claims require
extraordinary evidence."

As a 27-year-old astronomer, he found his avocation in 1961 when
he attended a small meeting with diverse experts to figure out
whether a radio search for alien civilizations was worthwhile.
The group decided it was, and that Earth's own galaxy, the Milky
Way, in theory held up to 100,000 advanced civilizations, many
with powerful transmitters and other technologies that might be
detected from afar. Thus was planted an important seed.

A polymath, Sagan wrote his first scientific paper on the origin
of the gene, the basic unit of heredity, in 1957. In 1962, he
wrote a paper with Joshua Lederberg, a Nobel laureate in
biology, on possible Martian life. In 1962 and 1963, he won an
appointment at Stanford University's medical school to explore
that topic.

"He knew more about biology than any astronomer I'd ever met,"
recalled Dr. Frank Drake, an astronomer and a pioneer of the
extraterrestrial hunt.

Despite Sagan's devotion to aliens, his early achievements
helped show that they were less likely in some places than
scientists had previously thought. While in his 20's, he deduced
that mysterious radio emissions from Venus were caused by
surface temperatures around 900 degrees, far too hot for life.

By 1967, Sagan took aim at Mars from a post at Harvard. Some
scientists said the planet's seasonal color variations were
caused by plant life. But he and a graduate student, James
Pollack, proposed that the variations were instead caused by
wind storms and blowing Martian dust, which turned out to be
right.

Sagan went to Cornell in 1968 and stayed there until he died.
His influence grew as he edited a leading journal and helped
found the American Astronomical Society's Division for Planetary
Sciences, raising his field's status. Division membership soared
from 100 or so in 1970 to about 1,400 today.



Susan Spann for The New York Times

CHRISTOPHER F. CHYBA This student of Dr. Sagan leads a team
planning a spacecraft to explore Europa, an icy moon suspected
of holding a deep sea of alien creatures. "He had great
intuition in focusing on the critical questions," Dr. Chyba
said.

As an explorer, Sagan played important roles in helping NASA
loft the world's first wave of interplanetary probes, including
ones to Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. He was
on the team that set two landers on Mars in 1976. The craft, to
his dismay, found no hint of life.

Far from giving up the extraterrestrial hunt, he increasingly
looked toward the stars. In 1975 and 1976, Sagan and Drake
searched for alien civilizations with the huge dish antenna at
Arecibo, Puerto Rico. The radio telescope, the world's largest,
had never before been so used.

In 1982, Sagan rushed to the defense of such work after Senator
William Proxmire tried to get it cut from the Federal budget as
a waste of money. First, after a t=EAte-=E0-t=EAte, he got the Senator
to end his criticism. Then, he won public backing for such hunts
from 70 of the world's top scientists, including seven Nobel
laureates.

"We urge the organization of a coordinated, worldwide, and
systematic search for extraterrestrial intelligence," Dr.
Sagan's group wrote in Science, the nation's foremost scientific
journal.

Part of his growing influence came from the great popularity of
his books, most of which were best sellers. "The Dragons of
Eden" (Random House, 1977) won a Pulitzer Prize. Others included
"Broca's Brain" (Random House, 1979) and "Cosmos" (Random House,
1980). "Contact" (Simon & Schuster, 1985), his only fictional
work, told of a radio-telescope hunt that stumbled on an alien
civilization.

Dr. Sagan became increasingly political in the 1980's. In books,
talks and protests, he faulted nuclear-arms testing, the Reagan
Administration's Star Wars anti-missile plan and, inspired by a
dust storm on Mars, warned that nuclear war could result in a
smoke-shrouded, deeply frozen Earth that he and colleagues
called "nuclear winter."

His leap from the ivory tower to television studios and
executive suites annoyed some peers. Science magazine in 1982
looked askance at The Cosmos Store, a venture Dr. Sagan set up
to make cosmic books and calendars. The National Academy of
Sciences, the nation's premier scientific club, landed a heavy
blow in 1992 by rejecting him for membership.

"Carl was so superb at public relations that this engendered
some jealousy among colleagues who weren't," said Elliott
Levinthal, a Stanford professor who worked with Dr. Sagan for
many years.

Despite the academy rebuff, he grew even more powerful. Starting
in 1992, Goldin, the newly installed NASA Administrator, a
former aerospace engineer and executive, consulted Sagan for
advice and developed a respect for his energy and views during
dozens of meetings.

The bond was strengthened by personal history. Both had grown up
in New York and gone to its public schools, Goldin in the Bronx
and Sagan in Brooklyn.

"Carl didn't come up with solutions," Goldin recalled in an
interview. "He posed questions."

The most influential questions, Goldin said, had to do with the
puzzle of extraterrestrial life and how best to address it.
Sagan, he said, especially bore in on how to probe Mars, whose
greater warmth and wetness in its early days were seen as
possibly having given rise to microbes or other forms of life.

Historically, NASA had taken a Cadillac approach to space
exploration, launching costly probes rarely. The more costly the
probes got, the rarer and more complex they became. In 1992,
only one spacecraft was scheduled to fly to Mars, a $1 billion
orbiter known as Observer, the nation's first mission to the red
planet in 17 years.

"His argument was that this is not a program, it's a single
event, it's the last ship out of port," Goldin recalled.
"Although I had a lot of my own thoughts, and had talked to a
lot of people, Carl convinced me I had to develop a vision and a
strategy for Mars." By early 1993, Mr. Goldin said, a new plan
was set. It featured low-cost orbiters and landers to be flown
every two years as Mars and Earth came into alignment. The merit
of the new approach was driven home in August 1993 when the
costly Observer craft, as it neared the red planet, failed
mysteriously.

The new series began last year when Mars Pathfinder landed and
created a sensation with its miniature rover. Others are to
follow in 1999, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2007 and so on.

More generally, Goldin said, Sagan played a vital role in
getting the agency to deepen its biological roots. In 1994 and
1995, he said, he met often with Dr. Sagan and other advisers to
discuss how to sharpen NASA's overall skills in examining Mars
and more distant worlds for signs of alien life.

In response to the ferment, NASA planned an Astrobiology
Institute, a consortium of academic and agency experts in
various sciences, to address the riddle of life in the universe.

Established this year, the institute is run by NASA's Ames
Research Center in California and has 11 institutional members,
including teams at Harvard, the University of Colorado and the
Marine Biological Laboratory in Woods Hole, Mass. Its budget,
now $9 million, is expected to grow to $100 million annually.

Sagan saw little of what he helped create late in life. He died
Dec. 20, 1996, at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in
Seattle, before the Mars Pathfinder landed with its Sojourner
rover and the Astrobiology Institute took off.

But his students are leading the new hunt for extraterrestrial
life, with Squyres focusing on Mars, and Chyba on Europa.

On May 18, Chyba wrote NASA as chairman of the panel drawing up
plans for a Europa orbiter. That project, he said, was in the
agency's "greatest traditions" of exploration, presenting large
challenges as well as enormous potential payoffs.

"Should the 2003 orbiter demonstrate the existence of an ocean,"
he wrote, Europa will rapidly become "a primary focus" in the
next century's hunt for extraterrestrial life.

"The whole program," Chyba said, "is carrying Carl's torch."



Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company



--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
   Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
---------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------





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   Dec > Dec 2

                   Re: Censorship, UASR And Peter Gersten

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:37:26 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:41:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Censorship, UASR And Peter Gersten


>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 01:21:31 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Censorship, UASR And Peter Gersten

>I keep a little dictionary on the desk here and looking at the
>definition of "censorship" I see the following:

>"To act as an official with the power to examine literature,
>mail, etc., and remove or prohibit anything considered
>objectionable."

>Folks, this is the very DEFINITION of the UASR list owners on
>the InterNet.  Get used to it!

>That is, they say themselves, in response to this question
>("Exactly which material will you censor?") the following:
>"Anything we want to, without explanation, warning or recourse."

>This, folks, is the very definiton of a totalitarian system.
>Get used to it.

>No wonder some folks are a little nonplussed by the high-handed
>actions of the USAR owners.

>Gary


Gary,

Isn't this a little high handed.  The flaw with your
dictionary's definition of censorship is that it is necessarily
brief and leaves key words subject to connotations.  I think you
confuse censorship with proprietorship.  In a meaningful
understanding of censorship from your too brief definition above
we have to understand that "official" is meant in a governing
sense and the "official" "removes and prohibits" from other
peoples works or media.  A proprietor who chooses and rejects
what is included in his property (maillist for example) is
merely exercising responsibility and discretion in his own
creative work.

If you disagree with their choices and justifications you may
reject their work.  However, it is disingenuous, dishonest and
just plain selfish to call it censorship.

Bye...  Ted..






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                  Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 19:33:00 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:45:20 -0500
Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:53:54 -0500
>Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:05:23 -0500
>Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 21:03:01 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>>I don't know if I'd characterize the majority of quotes you gave
>>as hostile, I think they simply reflect a lack of familiarity
>>with the subject of UFOs.

>Hi, Greg.

>It's a dismissive lack of familiarity. The SETI scientists
>aren't famliar with UFOs, and, most important, don't want to be,
>because they've already made up their minds that there's nothing
>there. I think you'd catch the tone better if I quoted really
>lengthy passages. Frank Drake, for instance, actually went out
>and investigated some UFO reports -- which only strengthened his
>scorn.

>Thanks for your kind words, by the way!

>Greg Sandow


Greg,

I haven't kept up with Drake's stand on UFOs.  However, at the
beginning of the Condon Committee considerations, he did write
Condon and urge him to conduct a thorough and serious
investigation.  Several others who did the same would have
Condon go to their superiors and complain about their academic
fitness.



--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
Telephone: (860) 546-9135





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   Dec > Dec 2

               Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:11:48 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:48:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:58:53 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth

>I'm the last person in the world to give advice, so I won't.  As
>for me, I have memories that have lasted nearly as long as I
>am old... far back.  While there are some similarities between
>your friend and me, the issue is that everyone has their own
>set of starting points, initial conditions, religious background,
>personallity, the list is endless.

You are correct Jim.  While I was interviewing my friend, I
worked my questions in such a way as to take it up to the limit
of his desire to answer...most of the time, I would then back up
a little, when that point was reached.  On a couple of
occassions, I pushed a little further, and he became angry with
me.  He was sure that I had financial gain as my basis for
interviewing him.  He thought I was going to write a book and
include his case in it.  Well, that was not my intention.  To
this day, nearly ten years later, I still have no plans to do
so... As far as his religious background goes, he is a Jehova
Wittness...that resulted in some interesting conversations
between him and myself...he was always trying to convert me to
his faith...<grin>

>And so only someone who has worked with abductees, in my
>view, should attempt to hypnotise someone...... Someone such
>as Budd Hopkins, as an example.

This gentleman had worked with Abductees before.  I had
introduced him to one other case and he had been contacted by
another abductee from Central Indiana.

This hypnotist was a close friend of Francis Ridge, the MUFON
St. Dir for Indiana.  In fact, if I am correct in my memory, it
was Francis Ridge who introduced him to me...His first name was
Lee...

>I have decided, for the time being, not to take advantage of any
>means of memory retrieval, other than my mind.  To quote my
>favorite poet, Bob Dylan, "Every man must be alone, but this aint
>no place to hide!"

>A dera verce, whatever
>Jim

Grin...I can appreciate your feelings.  To my knowledge, I have
never been abducted, but, strangly, when I was hypnotised by an
accquaintance, back in 1993, a long drawn out account of
confusion eventually came to reveal what appeared to be an
abduction when I was somewhere around 18 months to 2 years
old... While I have no way to prove this incident happened, the
hypnosis, did allow an explaination of an event which occurred
when I was about 5.  Maybe I will share it with you sometimes,
if you are interested...but, it's just a story, as far as I am
concurned. <G>

REgards, Mike






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   Dec > Dec 2

                       Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:11:46 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:51:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth
>Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 01:03:29 -0500

>>Up to that sighting, he was a "skeptic!"  Believe it or not.
>>Before I even met him, he had been suffering a total collapse of
>>his exo-nervous system.  He could not feel anything, and when
>>tested by neurosugeons, they could not activate a reaction to
>>their tests, including electorstimulation with needle probes.
>>Yet, the strange thing is that he is/was still able to walk and
>>do the things he desires to do... I even had a medical student
>>from the University of Kentucky travel to meet him and give him
>>a preliminary examination. When we parted company, the medical
>>student, called Thomas, said he didn't understand why my friend
>>wasn't paralyzed!!!

>It would be lovely if all this were documented. Abductees (and
>abduction researchers) so often tell stories like these -- but
>I've never seen medical records that would prove the stories
>true.

Well, Greg, his story is documented...that is, I have a
transcript which I hand typed from the Video interviews I did
with this man.

No, I don't have any medical records.  The man would not allow
me to dig into his medical history...

He told me he was examined by the Vetrans Administration
Hospital Doctors, and he was afraid I would cause him to loose
his Military Pension if I got to asking to many questions and
requesting copies of his tests from the doctors.

How to you argue with a person you are interviewing when you are
talking about his money???

I personally witnessed him stick a needle into the back of his
left arm, just above the wrist, about two or three inches. He
inserted the needle into his arm at least a quarter of an inch,
and didn't even flench...we are talking about a man who was
about 62 years old at the time of my interview with him.  Also,
he did not bleed when he withdrew the needle.

On another occassion I was at his house, when he was cooking
dinner.  A sauce pan with a metal handle was sitting on the
stove, and he reached over and casually picket it up...suddenly,
he remembered that he had a hot pan in his hand, and exclaimed
to his wife that it was burning his hand...not because he felt
it, but because he realized it was hot...he sat the pan back
down on the stove and as I looked at his hand, there was a very
brigh red streak the width of the handle in his hand, from side
to side.  He then turned on the cold water in the sink, and held
his hand there for about a minute.  When he turned the water
off, I examined his hand again, and the streak was gone, and his
hand was it's normal pink color...

Just thought you might like to hear that...<shruggggg> ;-)

>So what about those neurosurgeons? Can you get anything in
>writing for them? Likewise from Thomas, though I doubt an
>examination by a medical student would be accepted as proof of
>anything.

As I explained above, no...It might be possible once he dies to
go to his doctors and then request copies of the tests, I just
don't know.  I have not attempted to do such a thing before....

>I tend to believe these stories, when I hear them from abductees
>I know. (Especially if I've known them a long time.) But my
>personal belief doesn't count for much in any effort to prove
>that abductions are real. I'd like to see actual medical
>evidence, in the form of statements from named doctors, or
>entries on official hospital records.

>Greg Sandow

I agree with you Greg.  If it had been possible for me to do so,
I would have.  But, again, who am I to interfer with the man's
pension?

I ran into Rosmary Asnada (sp), one of Bud Hopkins abductees, in
Albuquerque, NM, at the MUFON INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION, back in
1992, and told her about his case...she told me she knew another
abductee who was experiencing some of the same symptoms of lost
feeling as my friend.

Take care Greg.

REgards, Mike






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   Dec > Dec 2

                   Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:08:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 00:59:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images

>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 06:40:08 -0500 (EST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Randle On the 'Roswell Memo' Images

<snip>

>Stan, Kevin, and all,

>Readily available software like Adobe Photoshop and its clones
>is simply not up to the task presented by these images.

>There is software which could sharpen this image, and probably
>make the writing easily read with no interpretation.  However,
>this software, which has been written about in the photographic
>press, is not generally available outside the intelligence and
>criminal investigation realm.  I have seen examples of images
>which any analyst would dismiss as hopeless blurs restored to
>high quality by these programs.

>What we need is an insider with access to this software.

>I am going to start asking around within the photographic
>community to see if I can get any leads on such a person.  I
>suggest that anyone here with any real intelligence or criminal
>investigation contacts begin similar inquiries.

>Bob

Hi Bob,

I guess you are our contact guy, I happened to be reading Linda
Moulton Howe's, Glimpses of Other Realities Volume II, 1998 and
came across the following on page 62.  Quote paragraph:

By the summer of 1995, Shutterbug editor Bob Shell in Radford,
Virginia was seriously investigating the humanoid autopsy film.
Shell had a longtime professional interest in and knowledge of
film and cameras. He also had a biology/zoology degree and had
applied that knowledge in work for the Central Intelligence
Agency in Washington, D. C. in the mid-1960s.

In an interview for the record on October 5, 1995, I asked him,
"They say once in the CIA, you're never out. What about you?"

"That's not really true," Shell answered. "I wasn't a spook. I
was just a biologist and zoologist. I stayed in touch with some
of my friends who are members of the intelligence community in
the intervening years. I talk to one of them quite frequently.
But I am no longer in the employment of the Agency and no longer
do any work for them."

"Have you talked with anybody in the inner sanctum at all off
the record about the dissection film?"

"Linda, it's only off the record to talk to those people! Let me
tell you what I did first when I was approached about this whole
project."

"And who approached you first?"

"Ray Santilli. In early 1995, and he told me what the film was
supposed to be."

"What did he say then?"

"He said it was film of an alien autopsy from Roswell, New
Mexico in 1947. And, of course, I knew generally about the
Roswell story. I had read a couple of the books. I knew what was
supposed to have happened. So, I called up my friend who is in
intelligence, officially retired, and said, 'Jim, let me tell
you this story.' And I tell him about the film. And - pardon my
language - but I'll quote him precisely. He said: 'Holy shit,
you mean it's finally out! "' "And I said, 'Maybe it is.'" "And
he said, 'I figured it was only a matter of time."' "And I said,
Jim, am I getting myself into any personal danger by getting
involved in this?"' "And he said, 'Let me get back to you on
that."' "So he called me back three days later after talking to
some of his friends and said, 'Bob, I don't think you have
anything to worry about because if they had wanted this hushed
up, Santilli and the cameraman both would have been dead a week
ago.' "So, based on that assurance from him, I went ahead and
got involved in it."

end quoted paragraph.

I have heard about these synchronicities occuring in the UFO
field but never imagined they happened.  With contacts like
yours I guess they might do the image reconstruction, or they
might be able to pull the already reconstructed text out of a
file!

Who knows maybe the NPIC (National Photo Interpretation Center)
will give it a try.  After all they did work in the background,
off-the-record and not for attribution on behalf of Condon's
Colorado Research project and the public never learned about
this for many years as the very fact that NPIC did so was
classified as Condon wished to avoid the "taint" of association
with the CIA, although in fact his research was in fact
sponsored by the CIA as a historian for the agency, Gerald
Haines, has recently admitted [Studies in Intelligence Vol.1
No.1, 1997. CIA's Role in the Study of UFOs, 1947-90 (A Die Hard
Issue)].

Perhaps more likely a graduate level student could perform the
required processing as a extra-curricular project. Perhaps as
"skunk works" project.

Bob, I see you have had the same experience that I have had, "I
have seen examples of images which any analyst would dismiss as
hopeless blurs restored to high quality by these programs."

I'm looking forward to the reconstructions too.

Gary






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   Dec > Dec 2

                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 02:01:41 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 08:30:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


> From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:19:12 -0500

>>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:48:37 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>I'm puzzled as to why the phrase "concern over alien
>>immigration" is considered "degrading" to Americans, or why it
>>should need an apology. This is typical of so much of the
>>reaction to psychosocial arguments (and, in fairness, most other
>>arguments) on the Internet.

>I can't speak for others on the list, but I have a different
>problem with the phrase "concern over alien immigration."
>Obviously there's "concern over alien immgigration" in the

<snip>

>influenced by immigration fear, what other developments would we
>expect to see? What developments ought to be ruled out?

>Without these scientific refinements, the theory remains just an
>idle assertion.

>Greg Sandow


Greg, John, Col, Major, List, etc.,

I think it is time to come to the crux of the _real_ problem
facing humanity and stop this nonsense about Blacks and
Hispanics and other assorted minorities.

Why don't you all come out and admit the _truth_?  Why are you
all dancing around the _truth_?  Because you are afraid to admit
what is really in your hearts.  You are _chicken_, that's what
you are. Yellow bellied and lilly livered!

I suppose it will be up to me to show you what the truth is and
how _not_ to be afraid, as all of you obviously are, to stand up
and _spit_it_out_!

The real problem in this world are... the Eskimos.  Goddamned
people, we all know what it's like to have to get around by car
during those Eskimo religious holidays.  And how about Eskimos
taking over the international banking conglomerates.... Huh?

Bastards have been getting away with chewing blubber _long_
_enough_!  Help stamp out the Eskimo Problem _once_and_for_all.

There, I've said it... and I'm glad.

No wonder those slant-eyed short cakes leave the Eskimo
alone.  'Cause even the Aliens are afraid of those beasts.

And when was the last time you heard of an Eskimo getting
abducted?  Hah.  So there.  Cogito, ergo.... uh... whatever.





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   Dec > Dec 2

                 Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience [was: SETI

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 02:47:56 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 08:34:00 -0500
Subject: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience [was: SETI


>>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>>Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 21:03:01 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>>I don't know if I'd characterize the majority of quotes you gave
>>as hostile, I think they simply reflect a lack of familiarity
>>with the subject of UFOs.

>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:53:54 -0500
>Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:05:23 -0500
>Subject: Re:

>It's a dismissive lack of familiarity. The SETI scientists
>aren't famliar with UFOs, and, most important, don't want to be,
>because they've already made up their minds that there's nothing
>there. I think you'd catch the tone better if I quoted really
>lengthy passages. Frank Drake, for instance, actually went out
>and investigated some UFO reports -- which only strengthened his
>scorn.

A very good example of Drake's dismissive attitude and
scientific blinders can be found in "UFOs -- A Scientific
Debate," edited by Sagan and Page.  In Drake's chapter, titled
"On the Abilities and Limitations of Witnesses of UFO's and
Similar Phenomena," Drake tried to debunk UFO witnesses by
sharing his experiences with meteor fireball witnesses.

First he starts by saying that from his experience, witnesses to
fireballs, were terribly unreliable, saying that their memory of
"exotic events" fades rapidly.  Then he gives the famous quote
often used by skeptics that after one day half the reports are
erroneous, after two days, three-quarters are, after fours days,
only 10% are any good, and after five days they are all more
imagination then truth.  (Drake, of course, presents no actual
data or studies to justify this sweeping assertion.  It's
seemingly nothing more than his gut- level impression.)

However, immediately after dissing eyewitnesses with this
statement, he then contrarily asserts that "some aspects of
perception are very accurate."  He gives the example of how
witness estimations of fireball duration tend to be very
consistent.  He says estimates of position and speed tend to be
poor, but if references are present, witnesses can sometimes
"give an extremely accurate description."  He says color
descriptions tend to be all over the map, but then says maybe
that's a perceptual problem with dark adaptation rather than the
witnesses.  (There are other physical factors which Drake never
considers which have nothing to do with the witnesses, such as
different vantage points, which might also account for some of
the inconsistency.)

To his credit Drake writes, "One should not discredit the
observation because such conflicts could arise in a legitimate
event in which everybody has seen the same thing."  (Funny how
the debunkers don't quote that particular line from Drake.)

So on the whole it seems the witnesses don't really do all that
bad after all, as Drake sort of grudgingly admits.  Drake also
doesn't seem to consider that accuracy of eyewitness reports
also depend on the skill of the interviewer. Very experienced
investigators can often elicit more consistent descriptions and
useful data than inexperienced ones.

Drake, though an astronomer, didn't normally chase fireballs.
But meteor specialists like Dr. Lincoln LaPaz did, and managed
to recover a large number meteorites by accurately triangulating
trajectories from the descriptions of eyewitnesses that he
interviewed.  With careful questioning followed by measurement,
LaPaz got highly consistent data used for triangulation.  (LaPaz
was the specialist the Air Force called in when the mysterious
green fireballs started whizzing over northern New Mexico and
some of our nuclear installations in late 1949.  Because of
numerous anomalous characteristics he deemed them to be
artificial in origin.)

However, let's get to my favorite part of Drake's essay.  Drake
then talks about the peculiar sounds that witnesses sometimes
report with fireballs.

"The most curious thing we encountered was that a large
percentage of the witnesses of both meteorites reported hearing
a loud noise at the same time that they saw the fireball.
Remarkably, the sound was always described as that of frying
bacon, despite the fact that the witnesses had no contact with
one another.  There was even one man who claimed -- and this has
been reported with other meteors -- that he was inside the house
and heard the sizzling sound; wondering what was going on, he
went outside and saw the fireball."

Then Drake notes that in the two fireballs he investigated, 12%
and 14% of the witnesses interviewed reported hearing some sound
simultaneously with seeing the meteorite.  Drake further notes,
"In fact, in the old meteor literature, with almost every
fireball recorded, something like 14% of the eyewitnesses report
the crackling sound...."

Such reports, in fact, have been noted for the last 200 years in
the scientific literature, including many reports of people
having their attention drawn to the fireball by first  hearing
the sound before seeing anything.  La Paz, e.g., was well aware
of the  phenomenon, and treated it as quite real, though he
didn't understand the mechanism.  Besides reports from people,
LaPaz also noted that animals inside of buildings were often
spooked by fireballs, even though it was impossible for them to
see what was going on and their behavior changed before any
air-borne sonic boom could arrive.

So let's look at what's going on here.   What we have is a very
consistently reported anomalous phenomenon reported by numerous
people over a very long period of time.  People who hear the
simultaneous sound even come up with the exact same description
-- like hissing or crackling or sizzling bacon.  Drake even
recognizes that this consistency of description is "remarkable"
and can't possibly be explained by witnesses contaminating one
another.  The identical reports are nearly all independent.

In the world of science, such a degree of repeatibility would
normally suggest a real physical phenomenon at work, however
strange or inexplicable.  But not to Frank Drake.  What we get
instead is a classic example of the psychology and arrogance of
the scientist debunker.  To continue with Drake:

"... 14% of the eyewitnesses report the simultaneous crackling
sound, which should be physically impossible.  How does the
sound get there as fast as the light?  The electromagnetic field
strengths, from the flash of light, are not enough to generate a
sound; they are no greater than with sunlight.  THUS THE
PHENOMENON SEEMS CONTRARY TO THE LAWS OF PHYSICS."  [emphasis
mine]

Now where have we heard that phrase before?  What Drake is
really saying here is that he, scientist Frank Drake, can't
personally conceive of a physical mechanism which would render
this possible, therefore it must be impossible, i.e., contrary
to the laws of physics.  As we shall soon see, Drake was simply
dead wrong about this.  But let us continue with Drake's faulty
line of reasoning:

"Also, if you plot the locations of the people who hear these
sounds you find that the timing of the sound does not obey the
inverse square law, for a person at a great distance is just as
likely to hear the simultaneous sound as one near the
meteorite."

The various aspects of the phenomenon Drake is noting here and
rejecting as impossible instead all turn out to be important
clues as to the actual physical mechanisms involved.  In 1980,
not all that long after Drake wrote his essay, a physical theory
of meteor sounds, or electrophonics, was published which
accomodated the very observations which Drake deemed violated
the laws of physics.  It has since then gained wide acceptance,
and these anomalous meteor sounds are now pretty much accepted
as fact.  The sounds, I believe, have even been recorded in the
field.  It is also believed by many that similar mechanisms may
very well account for anomalous sounds also sometimes reported
by observers of auroras and just prior to the arrival of
earthquake shock waves.

In essence, the meteor creates a plasma wake which interacts
with the earth's geomagnetic field.  This creates a low
frequency EM wave that propagates, naturally, at the speed of
light, explaining the seemingly instantaneous nature of the
sounds (what Drake couldn't understand and therefore deemed
"contrary to the laws of physics").  If nearby physical
structures are of the proper shape and size, they can act like
antennae, and transduce the EM wave into a real live, physical,
breathing, sizzling sound wave.

But at the time Drake couldn't conceive of how instantaneous
sounds might be produced, therefore they couldn't be.  So how
does Drake explain the universal agreement of the numerous
independent eyewitnesses about the phenomenon?  Well this takes
us to one of the stock-in-trade tools of the debunker -- the
"psychological explanation."

"One feels that this is a pychological phenomenon, a crossing of
waves in the brain.  [Now isn't that "scientific!?" ]  Something
like it is occasionally reported  by drug users, although the
fireball observers were almost certainly not drug users.
[Thanks for clearing that up Frank!]

Now Drake rolls out an absurd perceptual theory.  It's not
grounded in any scientific literature at all.  In fact, it's
nothing but a wild-assed guess from someone straying far from
his field of expertise (astronomy), but still using his
credentials as a famous scientist to try to pass this nonsense
off as "scientific."

"I suspect that under these unusual circumstances, with the mind
not prepared for a stimulus but suddenly given an intense
stimulus in one sense organ, there may be a feed-through into
other perceptive centers in the brain.  Some will then not only
see light but hear sound and perhaps even smell something. There
is material here for an interesting experiment:  to put people
in a room and subject them to intense and abrupt light stimuli,
perhaps in a form usually associated with a sound, and see what
happens."

Well we've all performed this experiment many times in our own
lives, which Drake should have realized with one microsecond of
reflection  Somebody pops a flashbulb in our eyes while taking
our picture.  The room lights are turned on after we've been
sitting in the dark for a while.  Some bozo flashes his car's
bright lights in our face while we're driving on a dark road.
Somebody points their flashlight [or torch for the Brits out
there] in our eyes.  We exit a movie theater into the bright
sunlight and are momentarily blinded. We momentarily glance at
the sun.  Etc., etc.

Did any of you non-drug users out there experience a "crossing
of waves in your brain" from the "intense and abrupt light
stimuli" that resulted in a sound  like sizzling bacon?  If
Drake had proposed such a nonsensical theory at a convention of
perceptual psychologists, neuropsychologists, neurologists, or
the like, he would have been laughed off the podium.

Unfortunately this is what often passes for science in the UFO
debunking community.  It's what happens when otherwise very good
scientists like Drake have an agenda that seems to overwhelm
their judgment.  What follows is crappy reasoning followed by
even crappier pseudoscientific explanations.

Drake in this book is trying to debunk UFOs and hence UFO
witnesses, which leads him to debunking fireball witnesses as
unreliable.  Eventually he posits a laughable psychological
theory to explain and dismiss a well-established observation
(instantaneous fireball sounds).  Ego and denial enter into it.
"I don't understand how it could be, ergo it can't be.
Therefore something must be wrong with the witnesses."

This isn't Science.  It's DebunkerScience, a creature of another
stripe.

Probably to Drake's chagrine, his claim that the phenomenon
necessarily violated the laws of physics was soon after
demonstrated to be erroneous.  A true scientific theory arose
partly based on the many anecdotal observations of those
unreliable witnesses.  Suddenly many astronomers realized that
the seemingly impossible had become possible.  People then
attempted experimental verification, which soon followed.

Such conversion of a topic from a fringe subject to respectable
mainstream science often occurs when somebody finally comes up
with a convincing explanation or unambiguous piece of evidence
for others to "hang their hats on."  One historical example with
which many of you are already familiar was how 18th century
scientists mocked "peasant" accounts of rocks falling from the
sky, which anybody with common sense also knew to be
"impossible."  It took a tremendous fall of meteorites in 1803
in L'Aigle, France before the scientific skeptics were finally
forced to admit that stones could indeed fall from the heavens.
The filthy, uneducated peasants had been right all along.

I think we all see the pattern here as it relates to the subject
of UFOs.  We hear the same dismissals of witness accounts, that
UFOs can be explained as perceptual or psychological
aberrations, the same statements that UFOs violate the laws of
physics, that interstellar travel is impossible, etc., etc.
These arguments are clearly biased, unscientific, and just plain
erroneous, i.e. DebunkerScience.

It would probably take something on the order of a full-blown
theory of a practical interstellar propulsion system complete
with engineering diagrams to convince some of these people that
aliens could indeed be visiting us.  But the extensive anecdotal
(and sometimes more objective) evidence of anomalous craft was
there all along, wasn't it, just like for the meteor sounds, or
for meteorites themselves, all of which were similarly dismissed
as myths and psychological aberrations by scientists like Drake.

The moral is that anecdotal accounts may not be the best type of
evidence, but when they are highly consistent, widespread, and
persistent maybe it's time to pay heed.

David Rudiak







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   Dec > Dec 2

                           CAUS - The 'Last-Post'

From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 09:05:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 09:05:15 -0500
Subject: CAUS - The 'Last-Post'



In all the recent discussion here regarding Gersten, his
version of CAUS and 'Censorship', do you not, gentle-reader,
find it a tad disconcerting that CAUS' recent history has not
been brought up?

A few reminders:


Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:41:53 -0800
From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
To: updates@globalserve.net
Subject: Barry Greenwood Resgins from CAUS

Barry Greenwood has resigned from Citizens Against UFO Secrecy
(CAUS) effective 18 January 1998.

Greenwood's reason concerned Lawyer Peter Gersten's return to
CAUS as director, a position he never relinquished when he became
inactive in 1984.  Gersten chose to make statements and affiliate
the CAUS name with all sort of people and group without
consulting Greenwood.  Greenwood considers such actions
unacceptable.

Greenwood will discontinue publishing Just Cause effective
immediately.  He will continue his publishing activities in a new
publication, "UFO Historical Review," (UHR) a publication he
considered starting ten years ago.  Subscribers can continue
their Just Cause subscriptions, and they will start receiving UHR
in its stead.  Or if subscribers wish, they may request a
refund.

Greenwood will issue a formal statement later, probably this
weekend on his leaving CAUS.

During the last two years CAUS and CAUS members have located or
effected the release of large collections of documents including:

Further release of NSA documents
4602d Air Intelligence Service Squadron (AISS) UFO Files June
          1954-1956
Project Sign/Grudge, 1948-1949, Investigative Files
Secertary of the Air Force, Office of Information Files
          1947-April 1952
Office of Naval Intelligence, "Ghost Rocket"  Top Secret
          Intelligence Files (Including Hillenkoetter's
          report from Paris)
Army Air Force Top Secret Messages on "Ghost Rockets"
Numerous new "foo-fighter" reports and documents
4th Air Force UFO files, 1950-1952
Files from the USAF Deputy Director of Intelligence (C&D)
          concerning UFO matters from 1948-1952
Numerous unit histories that mention UFO investigations.
Items from the Air Force Current Intelligence Branch files
          including document relating to the "Analysis
          of Flying Object Incidents over the U. S."
          (two addition copies of the "Analysis" were found
           with Memos by Dewey Fournet and others concerning
           the contents.)
Three radar sightings (some material Top Secret) UFOs over
          Japan in 1947
Reports and interrogrations found at Wright-Patterson AFB after
          the Project Blue Book files were transferred
          (1951-1963)
The accident report of the Walesville, NY incident
Early Navy Hydrographic Office files
Early Weather Burearu files on "Ocean Phenomena"

and

numerous other documents.

In a related note Project 1947 and I will continue to be the
E-mail and computer contact point for Barry Greenwood, but
neither Project 1947 nor I will have anything to do with CAUS.

--
Jan Aldrich

<<<>>>


Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:35:13 -0800
From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich)
To: updates@globalserve.net
Subject: Barry Greenwood's CAUS Resignation Statement

JUST CAUSE

Address: Box 176
Stoneham, MA 02180

Editor: Barry Greenwood

CITIZENS AGAINST UFO SECRECY

January 25, 1998

This will be my last statement for CAUS, Citizens Against UFO
Secrecy.  Effective January 18, 1998, I have resigned as editor
of its newsletter Just Cause.

In 1984, after CAUS was essentially a defunct organization, Larry
Fawcett and I thought it would be a good idea to have a vehicle
to publish updates following the publication of "Clear Intent,"
now called "The UFO Cover Up." We asked Peter Gersten, who had
previously taken out papers incorporating an earlier version of
CAUS with himself as director, if it was all right to revive CAUS
and its newsletter, Just Cause, since no one was doing anything
with the organization. CAUS had become a recognizable name after
several national news stories a few years before, and Fawcett and
I were working on the kind of research that CAUS had
represented.

Gersten gave permission and we began a new version of Just Cause
in September 1984, with Fawcett as publisher and Greenwood as
editor.  On occasion we would publish along with Just Cause a
CAUS Washington Report by Larry Bryant, giving his views on
government UFO matters.  It was essentially an independent
publication by a previous editor of Just Cause.  There was no
editor crossover influence between the two publications.  CWR
stopped around 1992 after about a dozen issues.

From 1984 to date, a period of more than 13 years, all CAUS
policy decisions and opinions were basically my constructions
since Director Gersten had left the organization to do other
things.  Several years ago Larry Fawcett retired to Florida,
leaving me with the entire operation, i.e., the newsletter and a
group of supporters/subscribers/members around the world.

In early January 1998, I was informed by Project 1947 head, Jan
Aldrich, that a site on the Internet contained a rambling open
letter on UFOs for a group called CSETI, run by Steven Greer.
The statement concluded with a list of contact organizations for
the letter, CAUS was one of the listed with *my* address but with
a phone number I did not recognize.  I never saw this letter, did
not endorse its contents or CSETI, and did not authorize any use
of the CAUS name and address.  The phone number, I discovered
later, belonged to Robert Bletchman of Connecticut, public
relations head of the Mutual UFO Network. That a MUFON official
is listing himself as a CAUS contact is beyond me since he was
neither a CAUS representative or on my mailing list.  Why is
MUFON interfering in my business anyway?

I asked Aldrich to act as intermediary on the net for me as I am
not on-line.  I insisted that the operator of the web site with
the CSETI letter, Steven Bassett of Washington, D.C., remove CAUS
from the list of contacts for the letter immediately.

On January 18th, I was advised by Aldrich of an E-mail message
from Peter Gersten to him announcing that Gersten was reasserting
his control of CAUS *retroactive* to January 1 to "make CAUS an
effective and viable activist organization dedicated to ending
all secrecy about extraterrestrial contact..."  He added that, "I
hope to pick up where Barry left off," and that he (Gersten) be
consulted prior to making any statements on behalf of CAUS.

I was thunderstruck that after 13 years of setting policy for
CAUS to protect its reputation as a careful, credible outlet for
research on the federal government's interest in aerial phenomena
(apparently something few of its other "officials" cared about as
they never showed up!), my position was being summarily usurped
in the flash of a keystroke.  I had left off *nothing,* and
suddenly any CAUS statements had to be cleared through Gersten,
someone who hadn't overseen the operation or issued any policy
directives for over a decade!

After having asked Steven Bassett, through Aldrich, to remove the
CAUS info from the CSETI letter, I discovered that the new
director Gersten had consulted with Bassett and had accepted him
as a CAUS consultant, again without my knowledge, thoroughly
undermining my position through a blind sided strike.

It became quickly clear that staying with CAUS was
untenable,...unacceptable.  The "new" CAUS officials, who were
popping up like prairie dog heads in the desert, were beginning
to forge unpleasant connections, CSETI/Greer for one.  On
Gersten's on-line chat room, one of his recent workshops is
titled, "Healing Your Inner Alien."  This is precisely the kind
of thing that I had spent much of my publishing time against: the
dumbing-down of UFO research, getting off onto silly tangents.
Pardon me for offending any personal beliefs but this is not
science, it is not even common sense, not even close.

With the advent of a collection of new CAUS loose cannons, I
asked Jan Aldrich to E-mail my immediate resignation to Gersten.
For me the rapid escalation of double-dealing and duplicity was
over.  Upon acknowledging my resignation, Gersten immediately
announced the debut of Just Cause as his own on-line publication,
wasting no time completing the assault.

One point needs to be made clear.  Peter Gersten was director of
CAUS when we took over the newsletter in 1984.  He did not resign
the position, he abandoned it, though, legally he still held the
title.  In essence, Fawcett and I were forced to be the de facto
directors in that no one else was issuing reports or statements
in that capacity.  I was in no position to change Gersten's
status without tearing down the organization and titles and
renaming everything.  At the time there was no need. He has the
right to take that title again.  I don't have to accept the "coup
d'etat" method in which it was done, or the new alliances which I
feel will ultimately destroy CAUS' credibility.

Since this is my last CAUS publication, from here on anything
attributed to CAUS is not my responsibility.  I have no
connection to it.

I will replace Just Cause with a new publication called "UFO
Historical Review."  If any of my existing subscribers want to
continue with CAUS, I will refund their remaining issues and they
can find CAUS on-line somewhere. If any want to stay, do nothing.
The next mailing will contain UHR, which will be similar in
format to Just Cause.  Available from Box 176, Stoneham, MA
02180. Quarterly at $15 per years, and $20 foreign.  Payable on
renewal to me, not UHR, for the present.  I want to thank Larry
Fawcett and Robert Todd for their contributions during the CAUS
era, and more recently Jan Aldrich and Edward Stewart of Project
1947 for alerting me to the back room maneuvers.

Barry Greenwood


<<<>>>


Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:44:21 -0800
From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
To: updates@globalserve.net
Subject: Reactions to Barry Greenwood's Resignation

Below are a few reactions to Barry Greenwood's resignation
from CAUS

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Barry Greenwood has provided a cautious and conservative check
on the excesses in the UFO field.  In this era of wild unfounded
claims his service was very inportant to serious UFO research.
His new publication will be a welcome addition to the field.

---Richard Hall

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I regret the need for Barry Greenwood to resign from CAUS
but having known Barry by his efforts over the last 10 years
I support him 100%.

Hopefully some good will come from it all and I would like
to receive his new newsletter.

Perhaps it could cover both historical UFO reports (which
would naturally include some Project-1947 material) as well
as any future release of material under FOIA which I hope
both Barry and yourself will continue.

Please assure Barry of my continuued support for the future

Regards
--
Murray Bott
Auckland, New Zealand

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

For as long as I've known of CAUS, Barry was always the
"human face" of the group.  Whenever I wrote to CAUS, Barry
was the one to reply.  When I needed information from CAUS,
Barry was the one who sent it to me.  When _JUST CAUS_ subs
had to be renewed, they went to Barry.

Barry wrote, co-ordinated, and edited the information obtained
from CAUS and virtually single-handedly kept the organization
afloat.

Barry _was_ CAUS, and whatever the future may bring, I will
always associate the spirit, dedication and unfailing generosity
of Barry with the man who _was_ CAUS for so long, and who will no
doubt imbue any future projects with those same qualities.

Barry, your peers and your admirirers wish you all the best.

Kindest regards,
                 John Stepkowski,
                 Melbourne, Australia.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As for myself, I wholeheartedly support Barry.... Please feel
free to quote me about that subject.

I've been accustomed to think of CAUS as of Barry, in the last
15 years or so. He's been a  rare voice of sanity and prudence
in as delicate a place as the center of official documents
releases, where the much too numerous and vociferous paranoids
might well have taken over.

What a pity he's leaving now!

My first reaction was that he should not have surrendered,
but he was there, I was not (and I did the same myself in
1985, when I had to take the painful decision to leave a
CUN I had worked for and believed in for years, but which
had gone to unacceptable positions).

Edoard Russo, CISU
Torino, Italy

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Several years ago, for a reason I don't remember, French UFO
researcher Yves Bosson sent me copies of several articles that
had appeared in Just Cause. For me, at that time, Just Cause was
the bulletin of a group championning the "UFO community vs the
government" battle on UFOs. I had read Greenwood and Fawcett's
book and didn't chare some of their conclusions and I also
remembered the first years of CAUS with Gersten's fights against
government agencies. The CAUS I knew was another group, the
group that started before Greenwood became editor of Just Cause.

I was very surprised when I read the articles from Just Cause
sent to me by Bosson. No wild claims. Only carefully checked
facts.  I asked Bosson to send me all his copies of the
newsletter and sent $20 to Barry Greenwood to subscribe. I
discovered that the European ufology was not the center of the
world and that even in the country of coverups, Roswell fans,
MJ-12 and Stan Friedman, there was a voice for high quality
information on government involvement on UFOs.

When the GAO investigation and the Air Force investigation on
Roswell started I called Greenwood several times "to know the
truth" about what was happening. I discovered a man who is in
fact very strange when compared to many other UFO researchers:
Greenwood has no extraordinary revelations to make, no rumors to
spread on other researchers, it's possible to disagree with him
without loosing him as a friend (and of course without being
accused of being a CIA agent or a debunker).  Greenwood is
something like a UFO experience: as long as you haven't talk to
him, you cannot imagine the person he is or believe that he
exists: the tone of his voice, the way he replies to questions or
criticism etc. In a community where insults, gossips and rumors
replace scientific discussions, Greenwwod is a real anomaly.

One last anecdote: some time ago, the French cultural TV channel
Arte (French equivalent to PBS) asked me who to invite to speak
about the US situation re UFOs. Of course I mentionned
Greenwood's name and told them something similar to what is
written above. Unfortunately I forgot that Greenwood lacks
something, the something that stops TV producers when they
decide who they should or should not invite. Greenwood doesn't
have a PhD in nuclear physics, in astronomy, or he is not a
former MJ-12 member, never worked at Area 51 on crashed saucers
or this kind of thing. As a result, Arte didn't invite him and
instead, they invited Stanton Friedman, who of course has all
the necessary credentials to speak about UFOs!! And the French
public learned all those terrifying secrets that the US
government is hidding. We can easily understand that a serious
TV channel like Arte cannot compromise itself in inviting
someone who is not a scientist and therefore who could go off
the rail during the interview!

What can I add? Nothing except that I sincerely wish for all of
us that Barry will continue to publish his newsletter (he told
me the other day that he will) and that thanks to him and to a
few other sane people in this field, we'll be able to maintain
something that really looks like UFO research. It's too bad that
people who consider ufology as just a pseudo-science full of cranks
don't know that people like Greenwood exist.

Sorry for my Frenglish. I hope you'll understand from what I say
above that Barry Greenwood is one of the few people in this field
that I really appreciate. But contrary to what I often read or
hear, I don't think that the UFO community is in such a bad
situation because even if there are more and more nuts, there are
also more and more serious investigators who follow the "Greenwood
policy". The only thing that is really happening is that there is
a divide that is getting greater each day between the sane UFO
researchers/historians and the true believers who accepts every
wild UFO claims.


Pierre Lagrange

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Count on me.  You may definitely quote me. Joining Pierre,
I support Barry's statement too.

Useless to add more.

Sincerely,

Maurizio Verga, CISU

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yes, I support him willingly.

Bruno Mancusi
Switzerland

<<<>>>

This is the 'last-post' for Gersten and 'CAUS' on UFO UpDates.

As Ted Viens so ably put it last night, don't "confuse
censorship with proprietorship".


Errol Bruce-Knapp
Moderator







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 2

               Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 03:07:34 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 09:16:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth


>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:11:48 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:58:53 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth

>>I'm the last person in the world to give advice, so I won't.  As
>>for me, I have memories that have lasted nearly as long as I
>>am old... far back.  While there are some similarities between
>>your friend and me, the issue is that everyone has their own
>>set of starting points, initial conditions, religious background,
>>personallity, the list is endless.

>You are correct Jim.  While I was interviewing my friend, I
>worked my questions in such a way as to take it up to the limit
>of his desire to answer...most of the time, I would then back up
>a little, when that point was reached.  On a couple of
>occassions, I pushed a little further, and he became angry with
>me.  He was sure that I had financial gain as my basis for
>interviewing him.  He thought I was going to write a book and
>include his case in it.  Well, that was not my intention.  To
>this day, nearly ten years later, I still have no plans to do
>so... As far as his religious background goes, he is a Jehova
>Wittness...that resulted in some interesting conversations
>between him and myself...he was always trying to convert me to
>his faith...<grin>

>>And so only someone who has worked with abductees, in my
>>view, should attempt to hypnotise someone...... Someone such
>>as Budd Hopkins, as an example.

>This gentleman had worked with Abductees before.  I had
>introduced him to one other case and he had been contacted by
>another abductee from Central Indiana.

>This hypnotist was a close friend of Francis Ridge, the MUFON
>St. Dir for Indiana.  In fact, if I am correct in my memory, it
>was Francis Ridge who introduced him to me...His first name was
>Lee...

>>I have decided, for the time being, not to take advantage of any
>>means of memory retrieval, other than my mind.  To quote my
>>favorite poet, Bob Dylan, "Every man must be alone, but this aint
>>no place to hide!"

>>A dera verce, whatever
>>Jim

>Grin...I can appreciate your feelings.  To my knowledge, I have
>never been abducted, but, strangly, when I was hypnotised by an
>accquaintance, back in 1993, a long drawn out account of
>confusion eventually came to reveal what appeared to be an
>abduction when I was somewhere around 18 months to 2 years
>old... While I have no way to prove this incident happened, the
>hypnosis, did allow an explaination of an event which occurred
>when I was about 5.  Maybe I will share it with you sometimes,
>if you are interested...but, it's just a story, as far as I am
>concurned. <G>

>REgards, Mike


I am exceedingly interested in hearing everything available on
this issue.  Altho it would be best done off-line of UPDATES so
as not to take up too much bandwidth.

However I should like to use this venue, Errol, if you don't
mind, to offer a good man my most sincere appologies.  Two good
men actually.  They know who they are.

So Michael, I can easily understand how that mistake can be
made, referring to the person who questioned your motives.

It is not reasonable in this world, to believe that someone is
altruistic in his or her motives.  That there are people like
that is hard for me to believe, so that when I come up against
this bountiful soul, the first thing which comes to mind is ...
what's the angle?

I am sorry.  Twenty lashes with a wet noodle and a week alone in
a closet with my mother in law, Ms. Attila Your Huns.  Yes.  The
plural is correct. There are several Huns in there with her.

Jim







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 2

                  Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 03:24:05 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 09:46:57 -0500
Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 15:58:15 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:07:18 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:35:24 -0500
>>Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>Previously, Serge declared:

>>Your preconceived ideas about SETI had you called me stupid and
>>a couple other names - and with other subscribers too: bad
>>education.  This is understandable since you were arguably
>>enough ignorant of the facts and since SETI is such a palatable
>>NASAian space human adventure - Jesus Christ.  I am thus
>>surprised that, confronted with reality, you STILL evidently
>>think I am some stupid asshole.

>Okay, let's look reality in the face.

>I never called you an asshole. But speaking of calling names,
>you DID start this whole argument off with the following:

>>>Any 30 years $100-million flopped project supported by
>>>mainstream science on the hypothesis of extra-terrestrial life
>>>must be questioned by people involved in a 50 years $0.00
>>>research who came up with evidence - people who are still
>>>laughed at by the same SOBs who support the fore-mentioned
>>>project.

>As I said before, I support ufology and respect the fact that it
>has done so much with so little. What I find offensive about the
>above statement is your assertion that anyone also daring to
>support SETI is an SOB and your broad generalization that all
>SETI supporters laugh at the efforts of ufology.

>The "bet" I made was poorly worded on my part, I'll give you
>that. And, yes, you did win the bet. I can't deny it. But, in
>context with the discussion at hand, the much bally-hoo'd list
>you provided is hardly proof that the majority of SETI
>supporters are as polarized against ufology as you maintain. As
>I've stated before, ufology has outspoken leaders with
>questionable agendas, as well. I don't think many within the
>ranks of ufology would maintain that these "leaders" define how
>everyone else thinks.

>Speaking of how some people think, your following statement was
>conveniently left out of your current reply:

>>>I hope SETI keeps on being a flop. Why? Because any success would
>>>give the same SOBs more un-earned respectability and more un-earned
>>>credibility. The people from SETI are, in my opinion, on the OTHER
>>>side of the fence: the side of mainstream science, which has
>>>deliberately and malevolently kept ufology in a ghetto.

>I'm sorry, but anyone genuinely concerned with making contact that takes
>such a petty position _is_ being "stupid" as I said before. After self
>editing your own comments, you then pointed out the following list
>participants as being supportive of your viewpoint:

>>[It] has been, _in_some_way_, recognized for its merits (eh?) and an
>>open-minded SETI seriously challenged (among others) by: Doc
>>Barry Mauthority@webtv.net>, Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>,
>>Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>, Jerome Clark
>><jkclark@frontiernet.net>, Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>,
>>Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>.

>How about it, guys?

>Regardless of your own personal views about the effectiveness of
>SETI, do any of you REALLY hope SETI fails? Or do we just
>casually ignore the above statement because it's embarrassing to
>admit that someone within our ranks could be so mean spirited
>and petty?

>I am the _only_ ufologist on record with that attitude, and
>thus the _only_ ufologist with that kind of logic.  If I follow
>your logic, then I am responsible for _all_ ufology being
>deliberately >and malevolently kept in a ghetto?

>Hey, man. It's not _my_ logic. It's _your's_. You're the one
>that maintains the few accurately represent the many. If you've
>read anything that I've written, you'll find that my view is
>just the opposite and always has been. Make up your mind which
>rules you want to follow and for whom...

>>I am responsible for ufology
>>not reaching the promised land? I plead guilty.  The joke is on
>>you, Roger, I am _not_ a ufologist.

>I'm sure ufologists everywhere are breathing easier.

>>Credibility has to do with authenticity, liability and truth.  I
>>am afraid SETI has started on the wrong track with their
>>attitude towards ufology: hostile, demagogic, refusing to
>>recognize 50 years of evidence, side-tracking the people
>>involved in the field.

>>This is wrong-doing.  We are not talking only of Sons of Bitches
>>here but of Standard Organized Bullshit, which is what stupidity
>>is all about.

>>I hope they choke.

>Too, bad.

>I was hoping everyone could work together without someone dying.

>Later,

>Roger Evans


In answer to your questions, Roger.

I do not hope that SETI fails.  The limited thinking of some
members of the human race notwithstanding, there is no reason to
hope for the failure of any legitimate enterprise done by
sincere people who are dedicated to advancing the sum total of
human knowledge.

Personally, I object to those who, whenever their mouths open,
the sum total of human knowledge is detracted from.

What blows me away is the individual(s) who refuse to open their
minds to a reality which differs from their own.  I call it,
"Culpable Ignorance" and I abhor it with a passion.

On those occasions when I exhibit culpable ignorance, I usually
take a cold shower and seek the comfort of ... uh,

Come to think on it, I have no where to go for comfort these
days.  However I do continue to seek it.

Perhaps some day Pia Zadora will take pity on me.

But I doubt it.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 2

                   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images

From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:35:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 09:50:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images


>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 01:48:24 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images



>Perhaps the real problem to this approach is that it is
>inadequate to the task and attempts to use a problem solving
>approach which is:
>
>1) outdated - magnification of various sorts: video, macro
>lenses, microscopes, etc.
>
>2) technically inadequate - image improvements expected by
>application of, Adobe Photoshop, which is capable of only basic
>image processing operations.
>

Don't let NASA know, as I understand it they were using Photoshop to
manipulate the Mars lander images recently.

>Back in the 70's I was conversant with this type of imaging
>analysis problem and I can certainly tell you that the
>professionals did not approach this type of task in this way.
>
>Among the problems that keep one from reading the message are
>image blur, poor resolution and contrast, and image noise; due
>to lens abberations, motion and imperfections in the imaging
>chain etc.
>
>As James Bond Johnson knows exactly which camera he used to take
>the picture, this should be obtained or at least the same model
>with same lens obtained.  The optical chain will need to be
>studied and measured.  A mathematical, computational solution
>can be developed which can correct for the defects in the
>imaging chain.  This includes motion, lens abberations, film
>noise, etc.  That the professionals really do it this way can be
>verified by reading the image processing literature.  To claim
>that the other approaches cited so far are definitive are either
>amateurish or disingenously saying that the best of technology
>has been appplied.

>The imaging analysis literature, Society of Photoptical and
>Instrumentation (SPIE) journals to start from, should be
>consulted and an photo-reconstruction expert or laboratory
>engaged; many university engineering centers and corporations
>have both the technical capabilities and personnel knowledgable
>to perform a state of the art image reconstruction.

>I doubt that the National Photo Interpretation Center (NPIC)
>would want to take on such a politically charged task but there
>are enough readers of this list with intelligence connections,
>that they may be able to engage their local facility!

>I have seen worse images successfully and unambiguously be
>interpreted following the application of these techniques.  The
>key is having the camera and the lens, the film and intimate
>knowledge of all parts of the imaging chain.  If you see the
>cameras and lens disappear from antique or used camera shops
>you'll know why. ;-)

>The key to knowing if the proposed reconstruction procedure has
>failed or succeeded is publication of the methodology and
>results by each group attempting the reconstruction.  Verbal
>pronouncements that what we did worked or didn't or
>proclamations that the results were ambiguous won't cut it.  We
>used to call this approach science back in high school (Bronx
>H.S. of Science, alum) and it applies in this arena too.

>Gary

All,

Gary is quite correct in his statements re the computer
manipulation that is available today, one group of users of this
software Bob left out in his list are the guy's 3 floors up from
me here, our Astronomers,(our Dept owns and operates the Jodrell
Bank Radio Telescopes out in Cheshire) they did some great
things by number crunching the Hubble data before it had it's
spec's fitted.

But the big problem as I see it in using these techniques would
be the amount and "quality" of data available to be used. Taking
the full image as a whole, no problem, you could digitise this
out to your hearts content, _but_ the area containing the
"message" is far less than one percent of the whole image,
something like .6 of a percent of the area. The characters
within that area are, at a guess .5 of a percent of _that_ area,
maybe less. The only data set you have to work with is the
negative, as a true representation of the light pattern and it's
natural characteristics, it's "grain", therefore must place a
lower limit to your sampling density.

Working down at this level, due to the "apparent" size of the
grain in comparison to the message's individual characters, I
feel it would be highly unlikly that you would be able to
assemble enough data of high enough "quality" to produce a
useful outcome, the data density just isn't there at this level,
but don't let me put people off from having a bash at it and
good luck to them!

Best Regards
Neil.

--
*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *
Neil Morris.       /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\
Dept of Physics.   1                                                 1
Univ of Manchester 0                                                 0
Schuster Labs.     1  Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES  1
Brunswick St.      0                                                 0
Manchester.        1                                                 1
UK.                \0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/
G8KOQ


             E-mail: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive->  http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/
Dave Willetts Home Page->    http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/dave_willetts/
Mike Sterling Home Page->    http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/mike-s/
Tim Morgan Home Page   ->    http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tim-m/

*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *





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   Dec > Dec 2

                         Re: The Roswell Declaration

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:13:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 09:59:35 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell Declaration


>Date:1st Dec 19 98 12:00:00 GMT
>From: Joachim Koch <achimkoch@csi.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: The Roswell Declaration

>Hi Errol and List,

>I received an interesting document which I would like to share
>with you.

>As you might know, Kent Jeffrey, Hans-Juergen Kyborg and myself
>initiated The International Roswell Initiative and its main
>Document, The Roswell Declaration, written by Kent Jeffrey.

>The Declaration was part of this great mainstream, grassroots
>effort whose purpose is a general declassification of any
>information that the Government might possess regarding the
>UFO phenomenon or extraterrestrial intelligence.

>This Declaration was supported so greatly around the world
>and as of July 8, 1997, approximately 20,000 Declarations
>had been signed, and by many of you here, too.

>Unfortunately, in Winter 1996/97 Kent Jeffrey made a complete
>turnaround which neither was understood by his friends and us
>nor by national and international researcher colleagues.

>We did not follow Kent's path and separated which is the reason
>why we still hold the International Roswell Initiative, Germany.
>We held back our part of signed Declarations (approx. 2000) and
>nearly every day, new signed Declarations come in. We intend to
>deliver them to the new American embassy here in  Berlin once it
>is build and in use in Summer 2000.

>To save the rest of trust in this fatal situation when Kent
>turned around in 1997, we initiated the Berlin Memorandum.
>Again, many respected researchers and friend supported this.
>Thanks again.

>You can fin this document on our webside at: http://ufos.de
>There please click in the Archive section on "Themen", then on
>"R" and  you'll find the link to Roswell.

>Though no longer with the Initiative as it had been half a year
>ago, Kent delivered the signed Roswell Declarations to the White
>House. On July 8th, 1997, he wrote two letters. The shipment
>accompanying the letters consisted of seven boxes containing
>approximately 13,000 signed Declarations. The remaining 7,000 or
>so Declarations should be sent from locations in Texas and
>Illinois and should arrive within the next two weeks.

>Kent wrote to:

>Janet Murguia
>Deputy Assistant to the President for Legislative Affairs
>Office of the Legislative Affairs, East Wing, Room 112
>Washington, DC, 20500

>and to:

>President Bill Clinton
>1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
>Washington, DC, 20500

>Incredibly, the only response ever received from the government
>was a brief letter from a military bureaucrat at the Pentagon
>dated 9 December, 1997 - five months after the Roswell
>Declarations were submitted!  To add further insult, the letter
>primarily describes the current program for declassifying
>"government records of historical value" and does not even
>mention Roswell.

>This is how the U.S. government responds to a petition signed by
>20,000 of its own citizens, plus hundreds of citizens from other
>countries worldwide!  It is little wonder that so many suspect a
>conspiracy.  My guess is, however, that the situation is more
>one of indifference and ineptness on the part of the government
>and its bureaucrats.  Perhaps, little more can be expected from
>an administration led by a president that looks right into the
>camera on national television, points his finger, and blatantly
>lies to his own people.

>Below you'll find the text scan of the letter Kent received.

>------------------------------ text follows-----------------
>[Seal of the DoD]          Departement of the Air Force

>Office of the Secretary            Washington, DC

>SAF/LLI                             9 December 1997
>1160 Air Force Pentagon
>Washington DC 20330-1160


>Mr. Kent Jeffrey
>P.O. Box 5125 Larkspur, CA 94977

>Dear Mr. Jeffrey

>On behalf of President Clinton, thank you for your letter
>regarding an executive order to declassify information regarding
>the existence of unidentified flying objects (UFOs) and
>extraterrestrial intelligence. Due to the large number of requests
>for personal intervention received by the President each week, he
>has asked the departments and agencies of the Federal Government to
>reply on his behalf in those instances where they have special
>knowledge or authority under the law. For this reason, your
>correspondence came to the Department of the Air Force for response.

>Executive Order 12958, Classifred National Security Information,
>signed by President Clinton on April 17,1995, directs that all
>government records of historical value and twenty-five years old
>or older be reviewed and declassified, unless meeting one of nine
>narrowly-defined exemptions. These records must be reviewed, or
>exempted from declassification by April 2000.

>The Air Force has identified approximately seventy-five million
>pages of material for review under Executive Order 12958. As of
>December 1, we have reviewed approximately 26.5 million pages of
>material. The Air Force expects to fulfill all the requirements
>of the Executive Order prior to the April 2000 deadline. Therefore,
>since the declassification process for government records is already
>underway, an executive order for specific categories is
>unnecessary.

>We trust you will find this information helpful.

>Sincerely

>[signature]
>PATRICIA M. FORNES, LtCol, USAF
>Congressional Inquiry Division
>Office of Legislative Liaison

>--------------------------------------end of text---------------

>I think we all and many others should ask Mrs. Murguia, Mrs.
>Fornes and Mr. Clinton where the Declarations are. I already
>have done so and am waiting for a response.

>Viele Gruesse

>Joachim Koch
>International Roswell Initiative, Germany


I, for one, didn't sign the Roswell declaration. It jumped from
talking about events in l947 to demanding release of all
information up to the present.

There are clearly national security implications with regard to
the technology both of the saucers and of means for detecting
them. I honestly don't think this technical information should
be out on the table for the Saddams of the world.

I think the demand should have been for amnesty for military
people to talk about the events of  July,1947, since the
government has said it was a Mogul balloon. I wrote a 5 page
rejoinder to Kent's MUFON article for MUFON, but it wasn't
published. He obviously, among many other problems, had no
understanding of how security works, not surprising since he
never had a clearance.

Kent had a willingness to spend lots of money, but he leaped to
conclusions. For example, he claimed the autopsy footage was a
fraud because of the curled phone cord. I asked if he had
checked with the phone company. No, it wasn't necessary. When I
checked I found the patent had been issued in the late 1930s and
production began then.

EO 12958, (20 pages long) is working. The JFK Library told me
that in the past 2 years they had declassified 200,000 pages.
The CIA has scanned their 10 drawers full of Compartmented
information and expects to have the stuff done by the end of
l999. The problem is that nobody will really know what has been
declassified until they go through it.. a daunting effort.

The Eisenhower and Truman libraries are waiting for review of
their old stuff as well. I don't expect smoking guns, but that
rather important pieces of the puzzle will fall out.

I do appreciate Joachim's publishing of the response letter.

Stan Friedman






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                  Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:47:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:58:42 -0500
Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 15:58:15 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:07:18 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:35:24 -0500
>>Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

<snip>

>As I said before, I support ufology and respect the fact that it
>has done so much with so little. What I find offensive about the
>above statement is your assertion that anyone also daring to
>support SETI is an SOB and your broad generalization that all
>SETI supporters laugh at the efforts of ufology.

<snip>


As I wrote 25 years ago, SETI is based on a whole host of
arrogant silly assumptions.

I don't wish the practitioners of this activity to fail. I
certainly don't expect them to succeed and surely this is not
the sensible way to find out about ET Intelligence.

I challenged a number of SETI Specialists about their
activities.

None responded.





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                  Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:24:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:49:12 -0500
Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:17:47 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 09:33:08 PST
>>Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:19:37 -0500
>>Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>Previously, I had written:

>>>A handfull of people do NOT define what the masses think, these
>>>days. If it's that easy, then Ufology should have no problem
>>>dominating and defining it's own field. It could then move on to
>>>being more productive and organized than it has been.

>Jerry responded:

>>If you maintain that SETI supporters support UFO research,
>>except for a few "fringe" characters (i.e., those who speak for
>>SETI, lead it, work at it, write about it, and define it), it is
>>up to you to provide the evidence.  I don't see any, and neither
>>does anybody else.  Did you miss Greg Sandow's posting quoting
>>all sorts of anti-UFO sentiments from just about every prominent
>>SETIan?  I'm afraid you're arguing without evidence.

>And you're arguing under very broad assumptions about the power
>of these few individuals to sway public opinion or affect the
>direction of UFO research. I have no doubt that they have
>personal agendas regarding the direction of SETI and would like
>as many people as possible to share their views; so do key
>figures in ufology. But, as ufologists are painfully aware, we
>don't always get what we wish for. More to the point, you've
>offered no evidence that SETI has blocked the efforts of UFology
>or its members. Does SETI get more funding than Ufology? Yes.
>But you can't blame SETI for presenting a better front and
>having better PR.

>>I'll take
>>your word for it that out there, among those with no access to
>>science or media, without voice or influence, are some SETI
>>enthusiasts who support UFO research. So what?  Where SETI's
>>agenda is concerned, they're about as influential here as truck
>>drivers who support UFO research.

>Make up your mind, Jerry. If what the general public thinks
>isn't important, then what does it matter if key SETI figures
>are as influential as you say? BTW, considering that both SETI
>and Ufology is funded by private donations, I'd be a little more
>considerate of what truck drivers think. They might just be
>interested in UFO research...

>Again, the following question remains unanswered:

>>>While you included Serge's comments that supported your point of
>>>view, you left out Serge's petty desire that SETI fail to make
>>>contact with exterrestrial life. It's a pretty lame-ass wish,
>>>don't you think, for someone supposedly concerned with making
>>>contact as soon as possible. Are you afraid that people reading
>>>this will think him typical of all Ufologists? Think about it.

>Jerry's response:

>>Why should I have to answer that question, Roger?  Serge is
>>entitled to his opinion.  I was expressing my opinion, not his.
>>I was addressing my remarks to your views, not his.

>On the contrary, Jerry.

>When you give direct answers to direct questions, then you are
>addressing your remarks to my views. When you include someone
>else's views in an attempt to bolster your position, you can't
>selectively leave out things that are counter to your own point
>of view. This is particularly true considering the context for
>my original question; i.e. that both ufology and SETI have
>members with questionable agendas that don't represent the views
>of the larger group. If you don't support the views of Serge,
>then say so. But don't pick the bones of his illogical post
>looking for random pieces that might 'fit' your view point about
>SETI.

>Finally, you offered:

>>Since virtually every notable SETIan holds that SETI's
>>intentions are more noble than ufology's, who can blame the
>>occasional ufologist for holding that ufology's intentions are
>>more noble than SETI's?

>"The occasional ufologist"?

>Please. Don't everyone reading this come running to my defense
>all at once. It might get crowded.

>Later,

>Roger Evans


Throughout this thread there has been the assumption that
ufology has been vastly underfunded. I beg to disagree.

I am convinced that the NRO, NSA, DIA, CIA and whatever name the
MJ-12 group has now have been spending scads of money on both
examination of wreckage and interpretation of the measurements
made by spy satellites, huge radar systems airborne radar, etc.

The DCI has an annual black budget of 26.6 Billion$. The same
systems that monitor the sky and the ground for activities of
Iraq, Iran etc. can also monitor for UFO data.

Unfortunately these systems by definition produce data that is
born classified.Absence of evidence is not evidence for absence.
Earlier this year a rocket blew up with an NRO satellite on
board costing over $1.Billion.

Stan Friedman





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   Dec > Dec 2

                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:54:06 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 11:01:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 12:52:30 PST
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

Let's just snip everything here, and get back to a few basics.

The psychosocial hypothesis (so-called, there's not a _single_
hypothesis as such) suggests that the UFO phenomenon, including
such events as abductions, is not caused by the physical
intervention of some extra- mundane intelligence. Rather it
suggests that the phenomenon as a whole is the result of a large
number of different events ranging from misinterpretations of
natural and astronomical phenomena to entirely internal and
subjective events within the percipient's brain. There is no
_one_ explanation. It then suggests that the percipient's
interpretation of these events is coloured by their
psychological condition and their sociological circumstances.

Nobody has yet come up with anything that convinces me (and I
suspect you too, Jerry, but if I'm wrong I'm sure you'll put me
right) that _any_ abduction experience is the result of
intervention by off-planet forces. So the experience is being
mediated by other circumstances, rather closer to home. Peter
Rogerson suggests that the concern in the US about large-scale
immigration may be a factor in structuring the way in which the
phenomonon is perceived. Now I am not suggesting that there is
mass panic in the streets about this, but it is obviously a
significant concern. The UK is not so cut off that we do not
read American magazines, see American TV documentaries, and
indeed some of us even visit America, and it is clear that this
is an important issue. I'm doubtful about your idea that people
in an area like Southern California would be more concerned
about immigration than people in Northern Minnesota where there
are far fewer (hardly any?) Hispanics. My experience in the UK
is that this would not be the case. I have found that residents
in almost entirely white suburban areas of Surrey and Kent
probably have a greater concern (and fear) about race and
immigration than white people living in inner city
neighbourhoods like Brixton.

Much of the abduction experience is couched in imagery and
language that is familiar from arguments about immigration and
race. I mention "The Threat" only because it is the clearest
exposition in ufological terms of the old racist smear: "they're
coming over here to rape our women". Now if this is not actually
happening in the literal physical way Jacobs describes (and
before I get more misquotes, I'm not suggesting for one moment
that Jacobs is a closet racist) then this idea has come to the
experiencers from somewhere, and that somewhere is the general
sociological milieu in which the abduction experiencers live. I
would throw in another little bit of controversy here: the other
great UFO nonsense is that the aliens have secretly taken
control of the government and are pulling the strings backstage.
This sounds more than a little like the International Jewish
Conspiracy myth to me!

It is ludicrous to suggest that just because a Hispanic family
moves in down the street that the neighbours are all going to be
thrown into a panic and rush off and have abduction experiences.
But when someone _does_ have an abduction experience, whether
that be triggered by sleep paralysis or some other psychological
trigger, the structure and imagery of the events, the "story" if
you like, is going to be shaped by the individuals own
experiences and the sociolocical conditions in which they live.
In America, and also in Britain, one of those conditions is an
ongoing concern about personal and collective identity - not the
only one, and I think personal identity is a greater factor than
collective identity in most cases - some of which is expressed
in racial (not necessarily racist) terms.

If I'm even in the right direction it leads to the possibility
of a couple of predictions, and this is why I think the question
of Black abductees is important. If racial identity, and
particulary concern about immigration and inter-racial sexuality
is an issue in the abduction experience we might expect that
there will a difference in the proportion of Black, White,
Hispanic, etc. experiencers.

Initial suggestions in this discussion group suggest that this
might be so, but also reasonable suggestions have been made that
this may be an artifact of the reporting process. Perhaps we
could have more details on this? It clearly _is_ important to
have these figures available.

It might be that, having taken the reporting bias into account,
there is no significant difference in the proportions of
abduction experiencers in different racial groups. It might then
be worth examining if the "stories" of different racial groups
differ from each other, or are more or less homogenous within
each group. The "invading, interbreeding" Grey is now such a
dominant feature of the experience that there are probably no
longer any significant differences, but it would be interesting
to see if reports from Black abductees held out against this
image and provided a wider range of alien types and events for
longer than reports from White experiencers.

Of course, if people have been too sensitive to record the race
of the abductees (hardly something that can be held back from
the investigator) we will just have to forget the whole thing,
and a potentially important source of data will have been lost.





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:41:42 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 11:04:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 13:00:09 PST

>>Why not? Aren't Black people going to be just as worried and
>>upset about being abducted as White people? Aren't they going to
>>be just as anxious to find out what's happening to them? And if
>>they are understandably reluctant to take these fears to a
>>self-selected group of White abductionists, why shouldn't they
>>confide in people within their own communities whom they can
>>trust?

>Since there is no abduction panic going on in this country, your
>questions are moot. But I suppose I have to point out the
>obvious:

>There were never many African-American ufologists here even
>during the pre-abduction UFO era.  I suppose that next you're
>going to tell us that this must mean  black people weren't
>having (non-abduction) UFO sightings.  After all, wouldn't black
>UFO witnesses be just as anxious as their white counterparts to
>find out what they saw?

>Give us a break, John.

There is surely a quantitative difference between seeing a UFO
and wanting an explanation for it, and actually being abducted.
In the latter case there must be more of an incentive to seek
help, advice and perhaps reassurance. If black people are
undergoing abduction experiences in the same proportion as white
people I would expect that either they would approach the
existing abduction researchers, or if the felt uncomfortable
doing that then some abduction researchers would appear within
their own community.

Now if the latter is not happening, then I would expect rather
more answers to the question "are there any black abductees?"
than "Yes, Barney Hill". Now statistically we should expect that
at least 10% of American abductees to be black. It appear that
we have two possibilities if this does not appear to be the
case:

1. 10-15% of abductees _are_ black but they are not reporting
their experiences as much as white abductees, for social
reasons. This is a reasonable assumption. However, if we are to
eliminate psychosocial elements from the abduction experience it
is important to know if this actaully is the case. As the race
of abductees was being raised as an issue ten years ago, it is
remarkable that we still seem to have no idea what the true
proportion of black abductees is.

2. Far fewer black people than white people undergo abduction
experiences. If this is the case, surely it is equally important
to find out why. It could be that the abduction experience is a
psychosocial phenomenon and that for a variety of reasons black
people are less prone to it than whites. Or it could be that the
"aliens" are abducting a higher proportion of white people, for
reasons of their own. Isn't this a pretty important thing to try
and find out?

--





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 09:55:26 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 11:06:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:49:15 -0500
>From: Peter Brookesmith - Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>Compliments of the Duke...

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 12:06:50 PST

>>>I haven't checked with Peter Rogerson (I suspect he is not
>>>awake at the moment, 2:00am), but it's not impossible that
>>>his comment - lovingly, repeatedly, and not entirely
>>>atypically, quoted out of context by our mutual friend
>>>Jerome Clark - was derived from a piece by Steve Mizrach

>>Interesting to see that, as Peter B. informs us, I have quoted
>>("not entirely atypically") Peter R. out of context,  he
>>suggests as my source (for the weird fear-of-Hispanics abduction
>>theory) a piece I hadn't read till just now, when PB posted it.

>Jerry--

>Look again at what I wrote. I suggest Mizrach may be Peter
>Rogerson's source, not your source.

Nope, not possible. I first cited Peter R.'s strange assertion
about fear of Hispanics in a 1990 IUR editorial, so it predates
Mizrach's hilarious exercise in pseudosociology.

Cheers,

Jerry Clark





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 10:06:35 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 11:10:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:42:59 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 12:06:50 PST

>>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:53:02 -0500
>>>From: Mendoza - Peter Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
>>>Subject: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>>Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 14:36:51 -0500
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>>>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>>With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza:

>>>I haven't checked with Peter Rogerson (I suspect he is not
>>>awake at the moment, 2:00am), but it's not impossible that
>>>his comment - lovingly, repeatedly, and not entirely
>>>atypically, quoted out of context by our mutual friend
>>>Jerome Clark - was derived from a piece by Steve Mizrach
>>>first published in the "Bulletin of Anomalous Phenomena" Vol
>>>5 #3 (1994). In the interests of sanity - fat chance - I'm
>>>pasting this piece below.

>>Interesting to see that, as Peter B. informs us, I have quoted
>>("not entirely atypically") Peter R. out of context, he
>>suggests as my source (for the weird fear-of-Hispanics abduction
>>theory) a piece I hadn't read till just now, when PB posted it.
>>Interesting, too, that Peter R., who after all wrote the damn
>>thing that sparked the merriment in the first place, has never
>>accused me of misquoting him, atypically or otherwise. With
>>atypical lack of imagination, 'owever, he did call me a "true
>>believer" after I'd had some fun at his expense for it in an IUR
>>editorial.

>>Cheers,

>>Jerry Clark

>Jerry, when are you going to read properly what's in front of
>you, whether it's John Harney on Travis Walton or Peter
>Brookesmith on Peter Rogerson? Brookesmith is saying that
>_Rogerson_ may have been influenced by the piece he has posted,
>not you!

John,

I evidenly have less trouble reading any of the above than you
do. I do have trouble, however, with the sorts of pseudo theory
and argumentation that passes for the charitably titled
"psychosocial hypothesis." I have trouble with the unconvincing,
poorly reasoned claims you have been making, in recent postings,
to your own detriment. I also have trouble, by the way, with the
sort of blustering self-righteousness I see in your remarks
above.

I cited Peter R.'s strange suggestion of fear of Hispanics as
source of American abduction experiences in a 1990 IUR
editorial. Of course it's possible that, lurking behind the
dense fog of psychosocial prose, is a belief in time travel;
thus a 1994 exercise in pseudosociology may have influenced
Peter R.'s pre-1990 piece.

I should point out, more seriously, that your charges above
notwithstanding (and Peter B.'s as well), Peter R. is not
accusing me of misrepresenting his views; all he's doing here is
trying to claim -- honestly mistakenly, I'm sure -- that he was
merely giving an approving citation of somebody else's. As Greg
Sandow has shown, of course, the 1994 piece is a crock from
beginning to end.

Again: no wonder we here are so thoroughly skeptical of the
psychosocial hypothesis. We would be derelict in our
intellectual responsibility if we weren't. If the sorts of
arguments you have been advancing here are representative of
what passes for psychosocial ufology, what obligation have we to
take you seriously at all?

Jerry Clark






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                C-E: McCampbell's 'UFOLOGY II' on floppy disc

From: Francis Ridge <slk@EVANSVILLE.NET>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 18:42:22 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 14:42:03 -0500
Subject: C-E: McCampbell's 'UFOLOGY II' on floppy disc

PRESS RELEASE

Milestone in UFO studies published on floppy disc.

More than two decades ago, the author introduced a new and
fruitful approach to analysing UFO reports in a book, 'Ufology,
New Insights From Science And Common Sense'. The basic idea was
to focus upon the unusual and puzzling phenomena that were
observed then search for scientific explanations. Experimental
data published in the literature of mainstream science was then
used to convert general concepts into detailed descriptions. It
was sometimes possible to reproduce the effects in simple
experiments on a work bench. The specific, physical processes
established, beyond doubt, the nature of complex,
electromagnetic fields surrounding UFOs that are artifacts of
their propulsion system. Research continued along this path with
periodic communiques over the ensuing years. Findings were
released in many articles in UFO journals and presentations in
scientific and public forums. Unfortunately, most of that work
never reached a large audience and subsequently became buried in
a limited number of out-of-print documents that were usually
filed away and eventually tossed out.

Many people who have become interested in UFOs during recent
years have no idea of the amount of progress that has been made
in understanding UFOs. For that reason, the author has compiled
most of his writings onto an IBM 3-1/2"diskette. The text was
written in the WRITE program of Microsoft Windows 3.1 that is
easily read directly or with most word processors. Some chapters
delve into rather obscure, technical areas but are written so
that the general reader can follow the arguments. Scientific
veracity, however, is preserved to challenge the most critical
professional. In addition, several essays are included on social
issues arising from UFOs.

Chapters on the general problem include Scientific Challenge,
Interpreting Reports, Hot Rings, and Ripples. Disruption of
vehicles is covered in Engine Interference, Self-Starting,
Diesels, and Batteries. Radio Effects provide quantitative data
on fadeout, silence, and unassisted station changes. The human
body changes are odors, tastes, and paralysis. Social questions
are addressed on attitudes of scientitsts, public opinion,
communication with ETs, and UFO influence upon society at large.

To obtain a copy, order 'Ufology II: Some Final Answers' from

Digital Books,
12 Bryce Court,
Belmont CA
94002, U.S.A.

The price of $10 includes domestic shipping and handling.
Foreign orders add $1.50.

James M. McCampbell
Author
December 1, 1998

(Note: James M. McCampbell kindly allowed the use of his earlier
work on our email list _and_ web site. In return we have allowed
for him to post his press release which mentions the floppy disc
he is promoting which is an update from over 22-additional years
of research - Francis Ridge)



Support AND USE the research web sites by sending $1 a month to:
Sites
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Main InterLink Site Directory:
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                         Re: The Roswell Declaration

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:14:04 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 15:13:37 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell Declaration


>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Roswell Declaration
>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:13:13 -0400

>>Date:1st Dec 19 98 12:00:00 GMT
>>From: Joachim Koch <achimkoch@csi.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: The Roswell Declaration

>>Hi Errol and List,

>>I received an interesting document which I would like to share
>>with you.

>>As you might know, Kent Jeffrey, Hans-Juergen Kyborg and myself
>>initiated The International Roswell Initiative and its main
>>Document, The Roswell Declaration, written by Kent Jeffrey.

<Snip>

>Stan Friedman writes:

>I, for one, didn't sign the Roswell declaration. It jumped from
>talking about events in l947 to demanding release of all
>information up to the present.

I did. I did it for the honor of Jesse Marcel, a fellow that had
been the same kind of military servant I had been, and suffered
for his good faith; I did it to shake a cultural system from a
back stepping descent to fundamental mediocrity; I did it to
demand respect from a system that takes much, much more than it
gives back. I did it to support _you_ and your research, Mr.
Friedman.

>There are clearly national security implications with regard to
>the technology both of the saucers and of means for detecting
>them. I honestly don't think this technical information should
>be out on the table for the Saddams of the world.

I don't see a clear mechanism between my ignorance and the
assured ignorance of the very center of a network of master
spies, professional diplomats, and totalitarian dictators.
Hitler would have had the bomb but for the hero Heisenburg. The
Saddams of this world remain unrestricted in their pursuit of
whatever money can buy! This procurement process is _unhindered_
by an unelected government that you have demonstrated may keep
me in the dark for its profitably convenient purposes!
Conversely -- made known and above board, our open and shared
use of these technologies would harden us immeasurably against
the _generation_ of these Saddams.

>I think the demand should have been for amnesty for military
>people to talk about the events of  July,1947, since the
>government has said it was a Mogul balloon. I wrote a 5 page
>rejoinder to Kent's MUFON article for MUFON, but it wasn't
>published. He obviously, among many other problems, had no
>understanding of how security works, not surprising since he
>never had a clearance.

I've had a clearance. I think the point can be argued (as you do
so well) that there is a tendency for 'need to know' to linger
_well_ past its design efficaciousness. <g>. We are _all_ much
better off, in the long run, living the unhindered enlightenment
suggested by Jefferson (to preclude corruption and tyranny),
and treating the black operation with the disdain that it
deserves. Secretes, by easy nature, can be so disrespectful.
We'd do well, and live more satisfaction, to look for more
excuses to tell them than to keep them.

>Kent had a willingness to spend lots of money, but he leaped to
>conclusions. For example, he claimed the autopsy footage was a
>fraud because of the curled phone cord. I asked if he had
>checked with the phone company. No, it wasn't necessary. When I
>checked I found the patent had been issued in the late 1930s and
>production began then.

>EO 12958, (20 pages long) is working. The JFK Library told me
>that in the past 2 years they had declassified 200,000 pages.
>The CIA has scanned their 10 drawers full of Compartmented
>information and expects to have the stuff done by the end of
>l999. The problem is that nobody will really know what has been
>declassified until they go through it.. a daunting effort.

>The Eisenhower and Truman libraries are waiting for review of
>their old stuff as well. I don't expect smoking guns, but that
>rather important pieces of the puzzle will fall out.

>I do appreciate Joachim's publishing of the response letter.

>Stan Friedman


I appreciate your continuing courage and inspiration, Sir!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 12 September>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $100.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while
burning at the fundamentalist's stake.






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                  Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 11:32:54 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 15:17:55 -0500
Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:17:47 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 98 09:33:08 PST
>>Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:19:37 -0500
>>Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>Previously, I had written:

>>>A handfull of people do NOT define what the masses think, these
>>>days. If it's that easy, then Ufology should have no problem
>>>dominating and defining it's own field. It could then move on to
>>>being more productive and organized than it has been.

>Jerry responded:

>>If you maintain that SETI supporters support UFO research,
>>except for a few "fringe" characters (i.e., those who speak for
>>SETI, lead it, work at it, write about it, and define it), it is
>>up to you to provide the evidence.  I don't see any, and neither
>>does anybody else.  Did you miss Greg Sandow's posting quoting
>>all sorts of anti-UFO sentiments from just about every prominent
>>SETIan?  I'm afraid you're arguing without evidence.

>And you're arguing under very broad assumptions about the power
>of these few individuals to sway public opinion or affect the
>direction of UFO research. I have no doubt that they have
>personal agendas regarding the direction of SETI and would like
>as many people as possible to share their views; so do key
>figures in ufology. But, as ufologists are painfully aware, we
>don't always get what we wish for. More to the point, you've
>offered no evidence that SETI has blocked the efforts of UFology
>or its members. Does SETI get more funding than Ufology? Yes.
>But you can't blame SETI for presenting a better front and
>having better PR.

I remain baffled by your assertion that SETI's leaders are
unrepresentative, marginal individuals whose views don't matter,
compared to those of that vast silent majority of SETIans of
whom the rest of us have never heard (since their pro-UFO views
make it into neither public media nor scientific journals, which
should tell you something right there about their numbers and
influence).

I don't recall arguing, by the way, that "SETI has blocked the
efforts of ufology."  I have said, and you have not seriously
disputed, that the most influential SETIans are hostile to UFO
research.  (I have no evidence, though it may be there but
unknown to me, that their opposition has been anything more than
passive.) True, through their often uninformed criticisms they
have done nothing to help the scientific legitimacy of ufology,
but ufology's problems owe only in small part, probably only a
tiny part, to SETIan opposition.  SETIan hostility to ufology
simply continues the sort of scientistic antipathy to UFOs well
entrenched before anybody ever dreamed up SETI. And besides
that, as I've already noted, SETIans have an additional motive
to diss ufology: to enhance their own suspect respectability in
the eyes of skeptical colleagues.

In any event, it makes sense that those who think ETs may be
here would be ufologists, and those who think they aren't, but
are out there somewhere, would turn their attention to efforts
like SETI.  In that sense SETIan hostility to UFO research is
entirely to be expected, and so is its opposite.

I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree,
and let it go at that.

Jerry Clark






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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:03:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 15:43:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 02:01:41 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>Greg, John, Col, Major, List, etc.,

>I think it is time to come to the crux of the _real_ problem
>facing humanity and stop this nonsense about Blacks and
>Hispanics and other assorted minorities.

>Why don't you all come out and admit the _truth_?  Why are you
>all dancing around the _truth_?  Because you are afraid to admit
>what is really in your hearts.  You are _chicken_, that's what
>you are. Yellow bellied and lilly livered!

>I suppose it will be up to me to show you what the truth is and
>how _not_ to be afraid, as all of you obviously are, to stand up
>and _spit_it_out_!

>The real problem in this world are... the Eskimos.  Goddamned
>people, we all know what it's like to have to get around by car
>during those Eskimo religious holidays.  And how about Eskimos
>taking over the international banking conglomerates.... Huh?

>Bastards have been getting away with chewing blubber _long_
>_enough_!  Help stamp out the Eskimo Problem _once_and_for_all.

>There, I've said it... and I'm glad.
>
>No wonder those slant-eyed short cakes leave the Eskimo
>alone.  'Cause even the Aliens are afraid of those beasts.

>And when was the last time you heard of an Eskimo getting
>abducted?  Hah.  So there.  Cogito, ergo.... uh... whatever.

>Dr. Jaime Gesundt


Dr. Gesundt!

I'm shocked!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not only do you malign the fine and great Inuit people in your
post, but you insult them further by not calling them by their
proper name!!!!!!

By all the gods of political correctness....I'm heading for
Alaska and the Yukon _now_, to find Inuit abductees, train Inuit
abduction researchers, and thus take steps to end forever the
dual assault on the great Inuit people by abducting aliens and
by bigoted psychosocial ufologists, who refuse to
recognize......<COMPUTER OVERRIDE! COMPUTER OVERRIDE! BLATHER
ALERT! MESSAGE TERMINATED!>

(Some 15 years ago, the New Music America festival expanded its
horizons to include not just experimental music by educated
composers, but also ethnic music of various sorts. The star
attraction turned out to be two Inuit/Eskimo women with
wonderfully weathered faces, straight -- talking now only of
their appearance -- from central casting. They performed their
traditional music, and were nothing short of mesmerizing.

(All sorts of people at the festival gushed about them. Forget
the pale, corrupt ways of the venal, bloated West. These women
were the real thing -- unspoiled villagers, singing from their
hearts, giving voice to a tradition that stretches back to the
roots of antiquity...etc., etc., etc.

(Turned out the two were seasoned political activists, familiar
faces in Ottawa, where they'd go to lobby for their people with
the Canadian government. Their performances -- wonderful and
genuine as they were -- were part of their political activism.
The moral of this story? Don't make assumptions about people you
don't know anything about.)

And Jim....thanks for making me laugh!

Greg Sandow





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                       Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:11:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 21:09:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....


>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:11:46 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....

>>It would be lovely if all this were documented. Abductees (and
>>abduction researchers) so often tell stories like these -- but
>>I've never seen medical records that would prove the stories
>>true.

>Well, Greg, his story is documented...that is, I have a
>transcript which I hand typed from the Video interviews I did
>with this man.

>No, I don't have any medical records.  The man would not allow
>me to dig into his medical history...

>He told me he was examined by the Vetrans Administration
>Hospital Doctors, and he was afraid I would cause him to loose
>his Military Pension if I got to asking to many questions and
>requesting copies of his tests from the doctors.

>How to you argue with a person you are interviewing when you are
>talking about his money???

I completely agree. You have to respect the privacy of people
you work with.

Still -- and this isn't directed at you, Michael -- the lack of
medical documentation is a serious problem in abduction
research. All sorts of claims are made about physical changes in
abductees, ranging from marks on the skin to mammoth internal
rearragements that, allegedly, lead doctors to assume the
abductee has had earthly abdominal surgery, when the abductee
insists no such thing ever happened.

It's about time some of this was documented. I can't at all
blame abduction skeptics for rejecting all the medical stories
if they're not backed up with medical records.

And, Michael, in the case you've described, I must say one
thing. I'm not medically trained, and while what you describe is
impressive -- someone who's lost so much feeling in one arm that
he can pick up a burning-hot pan and not feel anything -- I'm in
no position to say it's medically unexplainable. For all I know,
there are rare but well known earthly conditions that can cause
what you describe. Abduction research _must_ stop depending on
anecdotes, however impressive they sound, and start supplying
real scientific evidence.

Greg Sandow





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: John <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 04:22:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 22:41:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: "'UFO UpDates - Toronto'" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:31:34 -0500

>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:53:02 -0500
>>From: Mendoza - Peter Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


Greg wrote:

>Peter, thanks so much for trying to bring some sanity into the
>discussion of abductions and fear of earthly aliens -- and for
>supplying the full text of the study that might be the basis for
>the discussion.
>
>That said, the text you submitted is a crock of spit,
>infuriatingly smug, dumb, ignorant, and superficial, and
>entirely unworthy of your attention.

<snip)>

>_The_ central concern? I've spent a lot of time among abductees
>and abduction researchers, and never seen this even discussed
>all that much. Of course, it's highly personal, and something
>that, understandably, women might not like to talk about openly.
>However -- and abductees on the list might want to corroborate
>what I'm saying -- the _central_ concern of abductees is being
>taken against their will. That's what you hear, over and over
>and over and over and over and over.

Consider it corroborated! <G>

>This paper is just a mishmash of speculation, misstatements, and
>unfounded assertions. I'm starting to lose my patience with
>idiocy like this. If someone has a serious case to make against
>abductions, I'm happy to hear it. But I'm getting very tired of
>windy junk masquarading as serious analysis. If I published
>something this stupid on the pro-abduction side, scorn would be
>rained down on me, and rightly so. Why do anti-abduction writers
>think they can get away with it?

>Greg Sandow


Brilliant response. I still say that you are one of, if not
_the_ best spokesman we (abductees) have Greg. Thank you.

Peace,





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:22:29 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 22:45:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 02:01:41 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>Greg, John, Col, Major, List, etc.,

>I think it is time to come to the crux of the _real_ problem
>facing humanity and stop this nonsense about Blacks and
>Hispanics and other assorted minorities.

>Why don't you all come out and admit the _truth_?  Why are you
>all dancing around the _truth_?  Because you are afraid to admit
>what is really in your hearts.  You are _chicken_, that's what
>you are. Yellow bellied and lilly livered!

>I suppose it will be up to me to show you what the truth is and
>how _not_ to be afraid, as all of you obviously are, to stand up
>and _spit_it_out_!

>The real problem in this world are... the Eskimos.  Goddamned
>people, we all know what it's like to have to get around by car
>during those Eskimo religious holidays.  And how about Eskimos
>taking over the international banking conglomerates.... Huh?

>Bastards have been getting away with chewing blubber _long_
>_enough_!  Help stamp out the Eskimo Problem _once_and_for_all.

>There, I've said it... and I'm glad.

>No wonder those slant-eyed short cakes leave the Eskimo
>alone.  'Cause even the Aliens are afraid of those beasts.

>And when was the last time you heard of an Eskimo getting
>abducted?  Hah.  So there.  Cogito, ergo.... uh... whatever.

>Dr. Jaime Gesundt -


This anti-Eskimo propaganda will not be tolerated.  Be warned!

Eskimo Anti-Defamation League





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                                  Re: GEPAN

From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 09:09:14 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 23:02:58 -0500
Subject: Re: GEPAN

Dear colleagues,

Does anyone have a telephone number for what was GEPAN in France
? I believe it now goes under another name.

If anyone can help please e-mail me direct on: el51@dial.pipex.com







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                  Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 13:33:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 23:00:57 -0500
Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 15:58:15 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:07:18 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:35:24 -0500
>>Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

<snip ad hominem - by ebk enuff already!>

On December 1st 1998, I wrote the following lines:

<quote>

My

>>>Any 30 years $100-million flopped project supported by
>>>mainstream science on the hypothesis of extra-terrestrial life
>>>must be questioned by people involved in a 50 years $0.00
>>>research who came up with evidence - people who are still
>>>laughed at by the same SOBs who support the fore-mentioned
>>>project.

has been, _in_some_way_, recognized for its merits (eh?) and an
open-minded SETI seriously challenged (among others) by: Doc
Barry Mauthority@webtv.net>, Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>,
Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>, Jerome Clark
<jkclark@frontiernet.net>, Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>,
Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>.

<unquote>

I believe I am right.

But you claim:

>Speaking of how some people think, your following statement was
>conveniently left out of your current reply:

>>I hope SETI keeps on being a flop. Why? Because any success would
>>give the same SOBs more un-earned respectability and more un-earned
>>credibility. The people from SETI are, in my opinion, on the OTHER
>>side of the fence: the side of mainstream science, which has
>>deliberately and malevolently kept ufology in a ghetto.

[...]

After self editing your own comments, you then pointed out the
following list participants as being supportive of your
viewpoint:

>[It] has been, _in_some_way_, recognized for its merits (eh?) and an
>open-minded SETI seriously challenged (among others) by: Doc
>Barry Mauthority@webtv.net>, Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>,
>Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>, Jerome Clark
><jkclark@frontiernet.net>, Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>,
>Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>.



And then you have the nerve to add:

>How about it, guys?

Document falsification and fabrication of proof to call the mob
on Serge Salvaille.

You must be on your knees, Roger.

No, I am not a fool. <snip of personal attack--ebk>

On December 1st 1998, in answer to your:

>>You're the only Ufologist on record that hopes contact is NOT
>>achieved unless it's by the "right" group of people; i.e.
>>Ufologists. It's THAT kind of logic which has deliberately and
>>malevolently kept ufology in a ghetto; not the existence of
>>SETI.

I wrote the following lines:

>I am the _only_ ufologist on record with that attitude, and thus
>the _only_ ufologist with that kind of logic.  If I follow your
>logic, then I am responsible for _all_ ufology being deliberately
>and malevolently kept in a ghetto?  I am responsible for ufology
>not reaching the promised land? I plead guilty.  The joke is on
>you, Roger, I am _not_ a ufologist.

To which you respond, after _conveniently_ editing your _own_
words:

>Hey, man. It's not _my_ logic. It's _your's_. You're the one
>that maintains the few accurately represent the many. If you've
>read anything that I've written, you'll find that my view is
>just the opposite and always has been. Make up your mind which
>rules you want to follow and for whom...

Please state the nature of the relationship between your reply
<gulp> and the above-mentioned quotes.  In the same breath, can
you tell me the difference between your reply and sulking? That
would be most enlightening.

<snip>

>>The joke is on
>>you, Roger, I am _not_ a ufologist.

>I'm sure ufologists everywhere are breathing easier.

It is most important in life to know who you are.  Pretending is
a very bad habit.  But I did attend the UFO History 101 course
at the Frobozz Institute of Alchemy.  Miskatonic was for spoiled
kids with a definite tendency towards sulfurous projects such as
the AA.  I barely passed, but escaped the dreadful "F" with a
paper titled: "Ufology and Modern Science: Oh Boy!".

Evidently, you didn't go to Frobozz's nor to Miskatonic.

>>I hope they choke.
>
>Too, bad.
>
>I was hoping everyone could work together without someone dying.

Please forward the appropriate pleading to SETI.  As for dying,
considering the way mainstream science goes, cutting the funds
on a project is considered an administrative assassination.  No
dough, no SETI any more.

Considering the $0.00 invested by mainstream science in UFO
research, please tell me who's killing what?  It's a miracle
that something like ufology still exists.  The endurance of
ufology is a tribute to the validity of its premise: there is
something out there.

Did I say it?:

Screw SETI.

Serge Salvaille
AKA Dr Who?Me?






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                  Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 14:39:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 23:14:36 -0500
Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 03:24:05 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 15:58:15 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:07:18 -0500
>>>Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:35:24 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>In answer to your questions, Roger.

>I do not hope that SETI fails.  The limited thinking of some
>members of the human race notwithstanding, there is no reason to
>hope for the failure of any legitimate enterprise done by
>sincere people who are dedicated to advancing the sum total of
>human knowledge.

Jim,

If I say hello to a blinking light bulb and it blinks back to
me, I should pause and wrinkle my ears to see if the light bulb
blinks back.  With an optimistic 30 years interval between the
blinking-hello-blinking-wrinkling-blinking-what_the_hell_is_happ
ening, that gets us to 120 years, assuming:

1. that a significant blinking occurs today;

2. that tomorrow morning an obscure Professor Neutron comes out
with a gizmo that can send a wrinkling radio signal 30
light-years away;

3. that, unlike SETI, Some ET Is not only listening but also
sending, a situation that will avoid a 3-Stooges-joke with
everybody listening but nobody making noise.

Sincere people dedicated to advancing the sum total of human
knowledge would figuratively sell their grandmother to get a
signal. Contact with an alien intelligence is what this is all
about.

I cannot reconcile legitimacy, sincerity and dedication with the
position SETI has taken towards ufology - a position which
explicitly denies those qualities and casts serious and
_legitimate_ doubts on the motives of the SETI proponents.

I you can cope with such contradictions, I refuse to do so.

Did somebody turn off the lights? I am beginning to suspect that
all the Top Secret fuzz around UFOs is only a cover-up for
Professor Neutron.

Serge Salvaille
AKA Duke MaybeIAmProfessorNeutronAndIDontKnowIt





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   Dec > Dec 2

                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 15:32:10 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 23:16:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:41:42 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 13:00:09 PST

>>There were never many African-American ufologists here even
>>during the pre-abduction UFO era.  I suppose that next you're
>>going to tell us that this must mean  black people weren't
>>having (non-abduction) UFO sightings.  After all, wouldn't black
>>UFO witnesses be just as anxious as their white counterparts to
>>find out what they saw?

>>Give us a break, John.

>There is surely a quantitative difference between seeing a UFO
>and wanting an explanation for it, and actually being abducted.
>In the latter case there must be more of an incentive to seek

>help, advice and perhaps reassurance. If black people are
>undergoing abduction experiences in the same proportion as white
>people I would expect that either they would approach the
>existing abduction researchers, or if the felt uncomfortable
>doing that then some abduction researchers would appear within
>their own community.

Why would you "expect that," John?  On what basis do you make
that assertion, except your own notion of how black people in
America ought to behave?  Greg Sandow has already made that hash
of that sort of reasoning, so I won't repeat his arguments here.
The point remains, though, that there is so empirical basis for
claims like yours.

>Now if the latter is not happening, then I would expect rather
>more answers to the question "are there any black abductees?"
>than "Yes, Barney Hill". Now statistically we should expect that
>at least 10% of American abductees to be black. It appear that
>we have two possibilities if this does not appear to be the
>case:

>1. 10-15% of abductees _are_ black but they are not reporting
>their experiences as much as white abductees, for social
>reasons. This is a reasonable assumption. However, if we are to
>eliminate psychosocial elements from the abduction experience it
>is important to know if this actaully is the case. As the race
>of abductees was being raised as an issue ten years ago, it is
>remarkable that we still seem to have no idea what the true
>proportion of black abductees is.

Nor of Polish-Americans, American Indians, Italian-Americans,
Korean-Americans, Jewish Americans, German-Americans,
Anglo-Americans, Hispanic Americans (a broad category of people
from a variety of different Latin cultures), Icelandic
Americans, Dutch Americans, Scandinavian Americans,
Chinese-Americans, Japanese-Americans, and so on and on.  This
is a circle which can indeed be measured anywhere. Frankly, this
doesn't strike me as the most urgent of all research projects,
but anybody who wants to pursue it has my best wishes.

Jerry Clark








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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 16:01:57 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 23:26:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:54:06 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: RRe: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 12:52:30 PST
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>Let's just snip everything here, and get back to a few basics.

>The psychosocial hypothesis (so-called, there's not a _single_
>hypothesis as such) suggests that the UFO phenomenon, including
>such events as abductions, is not caused by the physical
>intervention of some extra- mundane intelligence. Rather it
>suggests that the phenomenon as a whole is the result of a large
>number of different events ranging from misinterpretations of
>natural and astronomical phenomena to entirely internal and
>subjective events within the percipient's brain. There is no
>_one_ explanation. It then suggests that the percipient's
>interpretation of these events is coloured by their
>psychological condition and their sociological circumstances.

The problem with the PSH, aside from its failings when it comes
to the hardcore UFO evidence (in good part though not entirely
in the CE2 category), is that it is wholly unfalsifiable.  It
substitutes literary criticism for science, as its critics,
prominently among them me (and I was once an advocate), have
pointed out again and again.  It's an approach to ufology best
suited to librarians and English majors.

>intervention by off-planet forces. So the experience is being
>mediated by other circumstances, rather closer to home. Peter
>Rogerson suggests that the concern in the US about large-scale
>immigration may be a factor in structuring the way in which the
>phenomonon is perceived. Now I am not suggesting that there is
>mass panic in the streets about this, but it is obviously a
>significant concern.

A "significant concern," huh?  What's your evidence?  As
somebody who lives here every day of his life, I see no evidence
of such a "significant concern," which is why it is dangerous to
draw your conclusions from a distance, where you get your
impressions from reading

>American magazines, see[ing] American TV documentaries, and
>indeed some of us even visit America, and it is clear that this
>is an important issue.

No, it ain't.  It's fodder for cable TV shows pandering to a
fringe audience, and that's about it.  Otherwise, it gets
treated in the occasional cartoon, the occasional passing
reference by a stand-up comedian, the occasional paper (usually
not well informed) in a social or psychological journal.  You
cannot expect me to take any argument you make seriously if you
insist that there is anything like an abduction panic, concern,
or whatever word you're employing currently.  It just isn't
there, and you'd know that if you knew a whole lot more about
this country than you do.

>I'm doubtful about your idea that people
>in an area like Southern California would be more concerned
>about immigration than people in Northern Minnesota where there
>are far fewer (hardly any?) Hispanics.

Though I don't live in northern Minnesota, I do happen to
reside  in southwestern Minnesota.  On a daily basis I speak
with the people who live in my town.  I do not recall a single
conversation in which panic, concern, or whatever concerning
immigration entered the discussion.  I've heard a variety of
ignorant, bigoted, or thoughtless opinions expressed on larger
social and national issues, but I've never heard anybody go
on about the menace posed by immigration.

>My experience in the UK
>is that this would not be the case. I have found that residents
>in almost entirely white suburban areas of Surrey and Kent
>probably have a greater concern (and fear) about race and
>immigration than white people living in inner city
>neighbourhoods like Brixton.

I can't speak your experience in Britain any more than you
can speak to mine in America.

>Much of the abduction experience is couched in imagery and
>language that is familiar from arguments about immigration and
>race. I mention "The Threat" only because it is the clearest
>exposition in ufological terms of the old racist smear: "they're
>coming over here to rape our women".

It's amazing.  Greg Sandow and I have both addressed this
ridiculous allegation.  Neither of us is unaware of, or
insensitive to, racial problems and images in our society, and
this certainly went past us.  It seems to have gone by just
about everybody, including Jacobs, who when he's not a ufologist
is a professor of American Studies.

It also went past by fiance, who has little interest in UFOs but
is something of an authority (and a published one) on race,
ethnicity, and literature.  She happened to read The Threat and
had some interesting observations to make.  These American
racial threads you found so easily completely escaped her, too.
Could it be -- perish the heresy -- that they're not there,
except in your own mind?

>It is ludicrous to suggest that just because a Hispanic family
>moves in down the street that the neighbours are all going to be
>thrown into a panic and rush off and have abduction experiences.

I'm glad that we can agree on that much.

>But when someone _does_ have an abduction experience, whether
>that be triggered by sleep paralysis or some other psychological
>trigger, the structure and imagery of the events, the "story" if
>you like, is going to be shaped by the individuals own
>experiences and the sociolocical conditions in which they live.
>In America, and also in Britain, one of those conditions is an
>ongoing concern about personal and collective identity - not the
>only one, and I think personal identity is a greater factor than
>collective identity in most cases - some of which is expressed
>in racial (not necessarily racist) terms.

This assertion is so broad and sweeping as to be functionally
meaningless.  Who living and breathing anywhere on earth does
not have some sort of "ongoing concern about personal and
collective identity"?  In any event, it has to be demonstrated,
as it has not been except by verbiage, that this "ongoing
concern" has anything to do with people's vivid experience of
abduction by alien beings.

>Initial suggestions in this discussion group suggest that this
>might be so, but also reasonable suggestions have been made that
>this may be an artifact of the reporting process. Perhaps we
>could have more details on this? It clearly _is_ important to
>have these figures available.

If you are saying that data are more important in hypothesis-
formation than imaginative rhetorical leaps between, say, A and
Q, I agree.  If someone wanted to conduct such a study, fine.
The evidence available to date does not lead me to believe we're
going to learn there is a racial dimension to abduction
experiences, and I can think of other approaches that strike me
as more likely to tell us something we don't already know, but
what the hell.  If somebody wants to do it, more power to him or
her.

>It might be that, having taken the reporting bias into account,
>there is no significant difference in the proportions of
>abduction experiencers in different racial groups. It might then
>be worth examining if the "stories" of different racial groups
>differ from each other, or are more or less homogenous within
>each group. The "invading, interbreeding" Grey is now such a
>dominant feature of the experience that there are probably no
>longer any significant differences,

See what I mean about the unfalsifiability of psychosocial
hypotheses?   If there's a difference, it's meaningful.  If
there's no difference, it's because of social influences.  In
this way, the only hypothesis that can be "confirmed" is the
psychosocial one.


Jerry Clark






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   Dec > Dec 2

                          HOT GOSSIP UK - DECEMBER

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:02:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 23:35:37 -0500
Subject: HOT GOSSIP UK - DECEMBER


HOT GOSSIP UK - DECEMBER 1998
www.hotgossip.co.uk
THE "UNEXPLAINED" SECTION by Georgina Bruni

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * *
S E A S O N S  G R E E T I N G S   T O   E V E R Y O N E
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * *
DOLORES CANNON, THE MOTHER OF REGRESSION
THE FULL STORY OF THE RENDLESHAM FOREST INCIDENTS
UFOLOGISTS MEET UP AT ANNIVERSARY EVENT
UFO CITY WEB SITE
______________________________________________
DOLORES CANNON, THE MOTHER OF REGRESSION

I recently visited Baroness du Paulo=92s residence to hear another
interesting talk, this time by the well known regression
therapist Dolores Cannon. Cannon, a charming lady in her 60s,
has hypnotised numerous individuals over the years, regressing
them to previous lives. Her unusual books offer the reader an
insight into a phenomena that is still looked upon with
suspicion, but they are well work a read.

I follow no religion or creed, but was interested in the
historical aspect of one of Cannon=92s earlier books, JESUS AND
THE ESSENES. It is an interesting compilation of conversations
with a subject who appears to have been regressed to the time of
Christ. It is full of factual information relating to the Dead
Sea Scrolls, and records the last days of Jesus Christ. The
subject talks as a student of the Essenes and offers precise
details of the structure of the Essene camp at Qumran.

The most fascinating part, for me at least, is the description
of the Qumran library and its contents. This is were the scrolls
were supposed to have been kept. Cannon=92s subject recalls:

'They have models of the heavens that move constantly, as our
system does. They have the model of the star system in which we
live in.=92

Another interesting object that is explained, is a two foot
square crystal pyramid which the subject describes as an energy
increaser. The crystal was seated on a pedestal and shielded by
a wall. We are told that the crystal changed colour and would
burn anyone who touched it.

One of Cannon=92s latest books; just out in time for the new
millennium, features messages from Nostradamus. She has also
produced a book that might interest ufologists. KEEPERS OF THE
GARDEN.  I admit I had difficulty with the latter. Whilst one
can compare the information from JESUS AND THE ESSENES with a
reasonable amount of factual evidence, we cannot relate to alien
habitats or lifestyles. I do not dismiss the book, but ufology
is already a complex subject and research into this area is not
something I personally have the time and inclination to do.
Having stated my opinion, for anyone interested, the book is a
fascinating read.  I have ordered her latest book but
regrettably cannot recall the title; all I know is that the
cover portrays the head of a grey alien.

One of the audience guests was British actress Sara Miles, well
known for her weird new age views. The last time I bumped into
Miles was two years ago when we shared a table with the Marquis
of Bath at Aziz Shulman=92s Christmas party; Shulman was the owner
of one of London=92s most glamorous night clubs. Apparently, Miles
is still drinking her own urine as part of her belief in natural
medicine. She has a remarkable sense of humour and told me about
another actress who was considering taking her own urine. The
actress asked Miles if she could knock it back with a large gin
and tonic.

Baroness du Paulo is well known for introducing unusual speakers
to London society. All talks are by invitation only and take
place at the Baroness=92s home. Thank goodness we have someone so
dedicated, and compliments must go to her for such organisation.

Dolores Cannon=92s books are available from Gateway, The Hollies,
Wellow, Bath BA2 8QJ, UK. Write to them for their full listing,
they have some amazing publications.
____________________________________________________

THE FULL STORY OF THE RENDLESHAM FOREST INCIDENTS

Many of you will know that I have had a long time interest in
the Rendlesham Forest incidents that took place in Suffolk,
England, during the last week of  December 1980. These were
alleged to be UFO encounters involving numerous American
military personnel stationed at the Suffolk RAF bases of
Bentwaters and Woodbridge.

I am delighted to announce that I have recently signed a book
deal with a major publishing company to write the full story of
the Rendlesham Forest incidents. This is as a result of my
investigations over the last few years which has led to vital
new information supplied by numerous credible sources. For the
first time since 1980, the puzzle of what actually took place,
before, during and after the incidents, has been pieced to
together to reveal one of the biggest cover-ups of modern times.
The book will dispel the myths, address the disinformation
campaigns, present new witnesses and challenge the sceptics.

_______________________________________________

UFOLOGISTS MEET UP AT ANNIVERSARY EVENT

Andrew Lownie, my literary agent, and agent to some really big
names including Norma Major, wife of ex Prime Minister John
Major, recently celebrated his tenth anniversary in business
with a champagne bash for 100 guests.

Andrew Lownie=92s other clients include well known authors of
ufology, Timothy Good, Nick Pope and Nick Redfern. We all
attended the special function and it was fun to get together and
catch up on the latest UFO gossip.

Many of you will know about Tim Good=92s latest book ALIEN BASE, a
compilation of some of  the best UFO cases ever, but I
understand he is working on another =91good=92 publication. Nick
Pope=92s latest book THE UNINVITED, has recently gone into
paperback and he=92s just about finished a new one; this time, a
novel, that is allegedly based on a certain amount of fact, I
can=92t wait to read it. Nick Redfern has had two books published,
COVERT AGENDA and THE FBI FILES, both are a must for any
ufologists book shelf.
________________________________________________

UFO CITY WEB SITE

The latest UFO site of interest is UFO CITY, produced by
investigator Peter Robbins. It was only launched a month ago and
features interesting articles on the subject of ufology. When
Peter asked me if I would write a regular column for the site, I
was delighted to oblige. Nick Pope also writes a regular column
called =91London Calling=92.  Peter=92s artistic talents have helped
to create an impressionable site which is updated on a monthly
basis. Check it out: www.ufocity.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Permission to distribute this text providing the authors and
publication are credited. Photographs may be copyright and
cannot be used without consent.  =A9 Hot Gossip UK 1998
www.hotgossip.co.uk The above text is taken from "The
Unexplained" section

Georgina Bruni: Editor-chief Hot Gossip UK Magazine.
Published by Camelot International Ltd.
 E-mail: georgina@easynet.co.uk







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   Dec > Dec 3

               Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 16:38:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 07:32:08 -0500
Subject: Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald


>Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:20:04 -0500
>From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 18:36:29 -0500
>>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>>Subject: 50s UFO History: The Role Of Dr. James McDonald

>>A Bit More 1950s UFO History: The Role Of Dr. James McDonald

>Actually this seems to concentrate more on Hynek.


Good observation Bruce.

><snip>

>>How hard is it to lock up the "agent status" of a personage in
>>the UFO arena? In the case of Dr. Hynek, its easy. That is, in
>>the 1950s Dr. Hynek filed Top Secret reports on his fellow
>>astronomers, reports that were classified and only became public
>>in the middle 1970s, a quarter-century later, when PROJECT SIGN
>>papers were released. In those same documents is the statement,
>>from Hynek himself (!), that Dr. Lincoln La Paz, of the
>>University of New Mexico, the meteor expert who had helped
>>investigate the "green fireballs," thought that Dr. Hynek was
>>part "of a major cover-up." La Paz was still fuming in 1964
>>about the way the earlier investigation had been handled by SIGN
>>and Hynek.>>

<snip>


>Aw, gee, Gary. Allen was such a nice guy. He even stayed at my
>house once. And now you're saying he was part of the cover up?
>Well, it probably is true that he knew more than he told anyone.

I am certain that he was nice guy, good father, good house guest
and good agent too.

However I didn't say that there was a cover up, Dr. La Paz said
there was a cover up and that Hynek was part of it and Dr. La
Paz was in the position to know.

>>From the point of view of scientists he, at best,. lent some
>measure of credibiliy to the field of UFO research (I know I'll
>get a lot of response to this!).

Well what ever credibility Dr. Hynek lent to the field he
vitiated through his lack of leadership as documented by Jacques
Vallee.

>>From the point of view of UFO researchers he was, at best, a
>decoy to draw attention from the really hot stuff (as was Blue
>Book).

Agreed, that was Dr. Hynek's primary function. He also served as
a very efficient collector of information. That is everybody
talked to Hynek and Hynek talked to everybody. And remember that
Jacques Vallee documents that Hynek regularly flew to Wright
Patterson Air Force Base to file his reports.

>I can certainly recall that there was no 'love' for Hynek at
>NICAP and everyone figured he got his come-uppins when the press
>lampooned his swamp gas explanation. It wasn't until years later
>that he began to be treated as a ufologist as opposed to a
>government agent/employee.

Exactly.  Vallee says in Forbidden Science that by the late
1960s many people in the field did not know that Hynek was
continuing to work for the Air Force.  That fact was not
trumpeted to the masses as Vallee says. In fact, the creation of
CUFOS gave him the perfect cover to continue his activities,
both cover for status and cover for activities.

Gary Alevy






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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:15:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 07:52:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:03:37 -0500

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 02:01:41 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>Greg, John, Col, Major, List, etc.,

>>I think it is time to come to the crux of the _real_ problem
>>facing humanity and stop this nonsense about Blacks and
>>Hispanics and other assorted minorities.

>>Why don't you all come out and admit the _truth_?  Why are you
>>all dancing around the _truth_?  Because you are afraid to admit
>>what is really in your hearts.  You are _chicken_, that's what
>>you are. Yellow bellied and lilly livered!

>>I suppose it will be up to me to show you what the truth is and
>>how _not_ to be afraid, as all of you obviously are, to stand up
>>and _spit_it_out_!

>>The real problem in this world are... the Eskimos.

I hate to disagree with you, good Dr.

The problem _is_ those dang Puerto Ricans.  And you know the
ones I'm talking about.  They always show up at the neighborhood
Polka Party we Americans have on the weekends in every city and
town across this great country of ours.  ...about three feet
tall, hairless, huge eyes, dressed in 13 century monks robes,
and they like to get right up in your face when they talk to ya,
always making a commotion by banging their weird, medical
equipment around...  They eat all the hotdogs and apple pie, and
then they "take off."  Ring any bells?  Next thing you know
they'll be screwin our womin and takin our paychecks...snort,
grunt, slobber....  They just ain't our kind, doc.  Lucky for
guys like you and me though, eh?  We'll keep America pure...
Let 'em go live in Canada.

Bill







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   Dec > Dec 3

                       Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec

From: Susan Baldwin <sblee@stc.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:45:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 07:58:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec


>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:42:21 -0500
>Subject: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec
>From: Jenifer Migneault <westy@endirect.qc.ca>
>To: updates@globalserve.net

>My husband and I (as well as many car drivers) witnessed last
>sunday night what it seems to be an UFO.
>it troubled me..  So many questions still unanswered...Even
>thought I always did beleive in UFO and everything that goes
>with it, I sure wasn't ready to live such an experience.  Since
>this happened, I do research on the net to find if whatever we
>saw was ever seen by someone else in this big world....How was
>also wondering how many of you, partipating in this mailing list
>experienced something related to UFOs.
>Once again, excuse my english!!!

>Jenifer Migneault
>Montreal, Quebec


Jenifer

Although most of the time this list seems to be more wrapped up
in how many aliens can dance on the head of a virtual pin, I for
one would love to hear your description of the sighting if you
please.

A sighting can be troubling, and what you express is the same
reaction a lot of us have had after seeing something so totally
out of our usual frame of reference.

I don't think anyone can answer your questions definitively, but
quite a few here could point you in some excellent directions to
do some more research.

Susan B.





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                 DISPATCH # 111 -- the weekly newsletter of

From: ParaScope@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 20:33:48 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 08:00:32 -0500
Subject: DISPATCH # 111 -- the weekly newsletter of

S O M E T H I N G   S T R A N G E   I S   H A P P E N I N G

12/3/98

Quote of the Week

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's
character, give him power."

--Abraham Lincoln

-----------------------

Rant of the Week: �Inverting the Paper of Society�

Every week we pick the wackiest, scariest, nastiest or funniest rant from the
hundreds of letters received by us here at ParaScope headquarters, and present
it to you as our Rant of the Week. This week, �Harms� sounds off on the
"Capricorn One" theory that man has never walked on the moon, except on
Hollywood sound stages. Enjoy.

"Possibly the greatest illusion of all time are the missions to the moon. The
thought of America not continuing the expeditions to the moon raises eyebrows
to the validity of the program. Technology at the time could not have allowed
for such an elaborate undertaking. The space race was clearly modivated by
political cold war tactics, the climax being the statement made by JFK
concerning putting a man on the surface of the moon by the end of the decade.
All this was an attempt to prove Americas dominance over the USSR. In the rush
to prove superiority, our government chose to use misleading theatrical means.
Good Show!"

------

All rants are printed �as is,� with spelling and grammar goofs left
uncorrected. Some rants may be edited for brevity or clarity, to the extent
such a thing is possible. If you�ve got a rant you�d like to share, send it to
pscplady@aol.com with �possible rant� in the subject line of your letter.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Coming Up This Week!

Catch a number of great stories this week on the ParaScope web and AOL sites,
including daily updates to our Conspiracy Newsline and Daily Dose features.
Among the articles you'll want to check out:



The Paper Trail:
Where the Concealed is Revealed

Another installment of the Paper Trail is on the way, bringing the latest
declassification news to you. The new issue features once secret documents on
several hidden chapters of the Cold War, including: U.S. involvement with
drug-running contra rebels, the CIA's role in Honduras' dirty war, and the
National Security Agency's eavesdropping on Cuban communications. Some of
these reports will change history. Find out why in the Paper Trail.

---------------

House of Lords Discussion of Ministry of Defense UFO Files

Lord Hill-Norton of the British Parliament pressed a number of UFO-related
questions during October, inquiring on publicly-available UFO documents and
other subjects. Georgina Bruni presents a transcript of all the goodies from
the Hansard Records, including secret intelligence information, a list of UFO
reports, and information on unusual aerial phenomena experienced by the
British Fighter Commands and Bombing Commands as far back as 1943.


---------------
Conspiracy Newsline

Investigation panel finds that 24 of 31 inmate shootings at Corcoran State
Prison were unjustified; new JFK tapes released to the public; judge's ruling
prevents enforcement of new Internet censorship legislation; lots more news.


---------------

UFO Roundup

New twists and turns in the EQ Pegasi "extraterrestrial contact" case;
millenium ceremony, "golden cap" planned for Great Pyramid; UFO flap in
Australia; black helicopters seen in North Carolina; Deep Space One ion-
propulsion probe suffers mysterious engine failure; large triangular UFO seen
again in Montana; lots more.


...All this, and much, much more!


-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Jane, Stop This Crazy Thing!

Thought you were tough enough to handle the Dispatch and now you realize
you're not? Starting to think you've made a wrong turn off the info highway?
Well, we're only going to go over this once, so listen up!

To unsubscribe yourself from Dispatch:

1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com

2) In the body of your mail, type: unsubscribe dispatch

That's all there is to it!

Likewise, to subscribe:

1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com

2) In the body of your mail, type: subscribe dispatch

----------------------------------------

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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 3

                       Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 20:40:10 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 08:03:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec


>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:42:21 -0500
>Subject: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec
>From: Jenifer Migneault <westy@endirect.qc.ca>
>To: updates@globalserve.net

>Hello to all of you,

>First, please excuse my poor English... ;0) I'll do my best to
>make myself understood by everyone!

Don't worry about your english Jenifer...we will work around
any slight translation problems....<smile>

>My husband and I (as well as many car drivers) witnessed last
>sunday night what it seems to be an UFO... Even thought it was
>beautifull to moment to live (hopefully, not the last one!!!!)
>it troubled me..  So many questions still unanswered...Even
>thought I always did beleive in UFO and everything that goes
>with it, I sure wasn't ready to live such an experience.  Since
>this happened, I do research on the net to find if whatever we
>saw was ever seen by someone else in this big world....How was
>also wondering how many of you, partipating in this mailing list
>experienced something related to UFOs. Gee, you seem to know so
>much about it...

Could you describe what you and your husband saw? I have had one
sighting, and that was in the month of Sept., 1968...It was a  V
formation of lights. The front object was half disk and the
other six were oval or egg shapped.

I watched them execute 270 of the sky in square turns, starting
in the North, traveling South at about 45 deg. above the
horizon, making a nice rounded turn toward the East and pass
directly over me.

Once they were past me, the lead object and the three on the
right side, slid open to form an upside  -L-. Once this manuver
was completed, the formation then did a 90 deg. slide to the
left, returning North. As the formation proceeded North, the
left side of the formation closed back into the origional -V-.
Then it disappeared Northward into the night sky.

I hope this helps you in some way.

>Once again, excuse my english!!!
>
>Jenifer Migneault
>Montreal, Quebec


Again, don't worry about your english...My French is awful. <G>

REgards, Mike

ICQ#:7508455.
(502) 683-6811






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   Dec > Dec 3

               Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 21:47:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 08:09:20 -0500
Subject: Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald
>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 16:31:09 PST

Jerry,

I can certainly understand your feelings toward Dr. Hynek as he
was a personal friend.

However, I have to say that many people have sections of their
lives that are unknown even to their closest friends.  A recent
example of this being the case is now being played out publicly
regarding a well known political figure, isn't it.

There is a clear pattern to Dr. Hynek's activities extending
over four decades.   Many of his associations were dubious.  In
my opinion the conclusion is all but forced unfortunately by the
facts.

The facts speak for themselves:

1) Hynek was a paid government consultant or direct employee for
his whole career, all of it.

2) For much of that time he posed as an independent scientist
"interested in UFOs" and under that rubric collected an enormous
amount of information for his employers.

3) When the chips went down, as in the "swamp gas" incident or
the flap over Condon, our old buddy Dr. Hynek abandoned the UFO
to its fate, and had nothing to say of substance.

Sure, he was affable, even charming -- hell, who would YOU want
as your interface with the skeptical-of-government public!
Hynek was 10.0 on a ten point scale in that regard, able to go
anywhere and mix agreeably with almost anyone.  But look at what
was ACTUALLY going on, folks, during the time that dear Dr.
Hynek was the godfather of ufology, and after he was effectively
"blown" as Air Force explanator plenipotentiary.  The Big Boys
never throw away an asset, that I've ever seen.

As for Mr. Sherm Larsen, I'm sure he was a great guy, just like
Dr. Hynek.  Are we just supposed to IGNORE the fact of who he
was, just as we are apparently to ignore who Bryan et. al.
(NICAP's executioners) were?  Those who aren't aware of Sherm
Larsen's background can check his biography, I believe it was
published in the 1973 MUFON National Convention Proceedings. The
fact remains that for years, and even decades, Hynek was
regularly reporting to and taking money from the on-the-record
enemies of the "UFO", even as he traveled the nation as the
champion of same.

I would like to bring to your attention the insulting and/or
inflammatory words you used in your response to my posting by my
listing them below.  List readers will have to judge for
themselves the purpose that they serve.

"just silly"
"baseless paranoia"
"this is garbage"
"sinister agent"
"sinister conspiracies"
"imagined, reasons"
"not just silly, it's downright hilarious"
"fantastic and absurd grounds"
"one of the dumbest postings I've ever seen"
"wasted by exposure to this sort of paranoid delirium"
"the dimensions of human folly and paranoia"

Thanks for reminding me about overusing the word very, you will
note that I have removed it from the ending paragraph.

The UFO arena was, and is, akin to a minefield and if you don't
have a good map of the terrain you are likely to get blown up --
especially if you simply ignore the signs that say "Danger --
Mine Field!"

Gary





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 3

                       Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 21:26:28 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 08:13:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....
>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:11:28 -0500

>>How to you argue with a person you are interviewing when you are
>>talking about his money???

>I completely agree. You have to respect the privacy of people
>you work with.

Thanks Greg.  I appreciate you saying so. <smile>

>Still -- and this isn't directed at you, Michael -- the lack of
>medical documentation is a serious problem in abduction
>research. All sorts of claims are made about physical changes in
>abductees, ranging from marks on the skin to mammoth internal
>rearragements that, allegedly, lead doctors to assume the
>abductee has had earthly abdominal surgery, when the abductee
>insists no such thing ever happened.

I agree.  I tried every way I knew to get him to allow me access
to his medical records.  But at the last minute, he would have a
change of heart and back away from me.

I have his case posted in my file areas, if you would like to
read it, I would be glad to send you a zipped version.  Just let
me know...

This script, does not include the visit by Thomas, the U KY.
Medical Student.  He was a fifth year med student, by the way.

>It's about time some of this was documented. I can't at all
>blame abduction skeptics for rejecting all the medical stories
>if they're not backed up with medical records.

I agree. But, I found this area of their experiences, the
"proof" is something they are reluctant to provide...You would
think they would want to provide concrete proof.  However, there
is one possibility...maybe it is not the abductee, who is
refusing to allow us to look at their files...maybe it is their
abductors who is causing this...

This particular Abductee, told his story to the doctor, he was
told by the doctor not to repeat such a story...people would
think he was crazy and have him committed to a sanatarium. He
definitely didn't want that....

>And, Michael, in the case you've described, I must say one
>thing. I'm not medically trained, and while what you describe is
>impressive -- someone who's lost so much feeling in one arm that
>he can pick up a burning-hot pan and not feel anything -- I'm in
>no position to say it's medically unexplainable. For all I know,
>there are rare but well known earthly conditions that can cause
>what you describe. Abduction research _must_ stop depending on
>anecdotes, however impressive they sound, and start supplying
>real scientific evidence.

>Greg Sandow

He didn't just loose feeling in one arm, Greg...He lost total
feeling from head to foot.

I have the video of my initial interview with him...In this
interview, he sticks himself with the needle I was telling you
about.

REgards, Mike

ICQ#:7508455.
(502) 683-6811






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   Dec > Dec 3

                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:34:25 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 08:21:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:03:37 -0500

>Dr. Gesundt!

>I'm shocked!!!!!!!!!!!!

>Not only do you malign the fine and great Inuit people in your
>post, but you insult them further by not calling them by their
>proper name!!!!!!
>
>By all the gods of political correctness....I'm heading for
>Alaska and the Yukon _now_, to find Inuit abductees, train Inuit
>abduction researchers, and thus take steps to end forever the
>dual assault on the great Inuit people by abducting aliens and
>by bigoted psychosocial ufologists, who refuse to
>recognize......<COMPUTER OVERRIDE! COMPUTER OVERRIDE! BLATHER
>ALERT! MESSAGE TERMINATED!>

>(Some 15 years ago, the New Music America festival expanded its
>horizons to include not just experimental music by educated
>composers, but also ethnic music of various sorts. The star
>attraction turned out to be two Inuit/Eskimo women with
>wonderfully weathered faces, straight -- talking now only of
>their appearance -- from central casting. They performed their
>traditional music, and were nothing short of mesmerizing.

>(All sorts of people at the festival gushed about them. Forget
>the pale, corrupt ways of the venal, bloated West. These women
>were the real thing -- unspoiled villagers, singing from their
>hearts, giving voice to a tradition that stretches back to the
>roots of antiquity...etc., etc., etc.

>(Turned out the two were seasoned political activists, familiar
>faces in Ottawa, where they'd go to lobby for their people with
>the Canadian government. Their performances -- wonderful and
>genuine as they were -- were part of their political activism.
>The moral of this story? Don't make assumptions about people you
>don't know anything about.)

>And Jim....thanks for making me laugh!

>Greg Sandow


Dear Greg, List and  "I knew It" people everywhere,

'Twas my pleasure, Sir.  I could be wrong, but when things
appear a tad tense, it's time to laugh at yourself.

And by the way, you don't look Eskimo!

Love to all,

Jim

PS: My new motto is, "I feel much beter, now that I've given up.





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   Dec > Dec 3

                  Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 23:30:18 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 08:31:26 -0500
Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 11:32:54 PST
>Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 15:17:55 -0500
>Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

Previously, Jerry had written:

>I remain baffled by your assertion that SETI's leaders are
>unrepresentative, marginal individuals whose views don't matter,
>compared to those of that vast silent majority of SETIans of
>whom the rest of us have never heard (since their pro-UFO views
>make it into neither public media nor scientific journals, which
>should tell you something right there about their numbers and
>influence).
>
>I don't recall arguing, by the way, that "SETI has blocked the
>efforts of ufology."  I have said, and you have not seriously
>disputed, that the most influential SETIans are hostile to UFO
>research.

I think I can simplify the issue here.

You maintain the importance of "influence" that SETI leaders
have. But you also admit that SETI has not blocked the efforts
of Ufology. So, whatever "influence" the SETI leaders might
have, it obviously has no impact on Ufology. So why is this
"influence" so important?

Does it "influence" Ufology members? No.

Does it "influence" the results of Ufology's efforts? Not
according to your statement above.

Does this "influence" sway the general public away from Ufology?
I see no evidence, based on the several hundred people I've
talked to over the years, that it does. In addition, you've
presented no evidence that the general public has been adversely
affected by SETI regarding their view of Ufology.

In fact, the only people "influenced" are those few hardline
SETI members that already agree with the SETI "leaders". If such
influence dictates that they all dress in banana costumes and
shout from the roof tops at three a.m., who cares? Ufology has
its share of nuts, too. Again, they are not the majority,
regardless of how much literature is printed by either side in
an effort to "become" the majority.

I could print 10,000 copies of a flier that claims I am the King
of America. Even if all 10,000 copies are handed out, even if
all 10,000 people read the fliers, it doesn't mean that 10,000
people now believe I am the King of America. It doesn't work
that way.

In short, when you mention that the SETI leaders are
"influential" it is merely a distinction without a difference.
You might as well say that they all wear one shoe. Unless such a
distinction has a direct affect on Ufology or the general
public, then it means nothing.

>And besides
>that, as I've already noted, SETIans have an additional motive
>to diss ufology: to enhance their own suspect respectability in
>the eyes of skeptical colleagues.

And, as I pointed out before, Ufology already bemoans the lack
of respect it gets in mainstream science. Surely, that is motive
for the monumental dissing of SETI that I've been reading in
these threads. Considering that SETI has no affect on the
ongoing efforts of Ufology, this seems more like petty jealousy
than a logical argument regarding SETI and its goal of
contacting ET life.

>I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree,
>and let it go at that.

Reckon so....

Best wishes,

Roger Evans





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   Dec > Dec 3

                  Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:53:48 +0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 08:47:23 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia


>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 01:45:25 -0800
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia

>>From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia
>>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:34:19 +0800

>>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:27:00 -0800
>>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia

>However, all we got was Tony Tinnis' statement that:

>"(He) is a Christian and does not believe in UFOs."

>That sounds an awful lot like one precludes the other, or did at
>one time, for Tony Tinnis at least.

>Maybe I was wrong.

>But, if I ever (perish the thought) see a Bigfoot Yeti wandering
>thru the woods, the first words out of my mouth are NOT going to
>be " I'm an ex-Catholic and I don't believe in Bigfoot ".

>More likely, I would just shake my head in amazement.

>These are, and should be, independant beliefs and opinions.

>That's been my point all along, and it looks like I've done a
>poor job of making that clear.

>>Cheers in Tolerance
>>Sharon K

>Likewise
>- Larry Hatch.


Larry,

I do believe you made your point, and I do understand where you
are coming from.  The problem arises when you make a sweeping
statement such as -

"Do you catch my drift? A good Christian does not see or believe
in UFOs. That is exactly the mindset I objected to on some
earlier post.

If 'Christians' can make such dumb statements, no doubt the
members of other well-known religions can as well. the opposite
may also happen at times!" (from your original post)

Being a Christian myself, I have learnt, through my faith, that
the bible can be _interpreted_ to such extreme beliefs by many
religious people, leaders and followers.  And through my faith I
have come to accept this as their interpretation and their
belief.  Who is right and who is wrong will only be determined
at the final day of reckoning (if infact there is one).

"Once in a while, and perhaps by chance, a religionist or
religious leader will make a sensible statement. Whenever that
happens, I believe that they should be applauded, at least a
little bit".

I hope you do, perhaps you will give me a fairy clap for
declaring my full belief in beings from other planets (or times
or wherever they are from).  I have had many lengthy discussions
with religious leaders associated with many different
denominations and the majority, agree with me and many other
list members that aliens in fact do exist.

Perhaps you should have said "If _a_ Christian can make such
dumb statements..." instead of  "If Christians can..."

Cheers with Patience and tolerance for the new millenium...

Sharon K





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   Dec > Dec 3

                  Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 00:16:03 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 08:56:17 -0500
Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 13:33:21 -0500
>Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 23:00:57 -0500
>Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


Serge,

It's simple.

You made a bone-head statement "hoping SETI flops".

Now you'd like to forget it ever happened, which is why you left
it out when citing the support of other list participants. You
knew they'd never support you or your position if you left it
intact. But the fact is you did make the statement and it won't
go away, regardless of your rambling attempts at justification.

But, in the end, consider this:

My view is a positive one:

I envision that SETI and Ufology can work together, despite past
differences, to achieve a common goal; namely the contact of ET
life. If you read all the threads, you will find that to
consistently be the case. Some feel I'm misguided. Well, to be
fair, everyone seems to feel I'm misguided. Oh well.

Your view, on the other hand, is perversely self-defeating and
insulting:

You hope that SETI fails to make contact, regardless of the
benefit it would mean to Ufology. You maintain that anyone
supporting SETI, including Ufologists, is an SOB. You accuse
SETI, without presenting a shred of evidence, of holding Ufology
back. You even maintain that Ufology doesn't belong in
mainstream science. (My, how flattering) And when you ultimately
get cornered in a discussion, you simply take the position that
you hope SETI members "choke".

How clever.

I'm ending our disscussion in this thread, not because I'm "on
my knees" (hardly), but because you find it impossible to calmly
engage in the subject without resorting to sophistic reasoning
and/or direct insults.

For the record, none of my posts had to be edited by EBK because
of a personal swipe.

Write what you will.

I will not reply.

Roger Evans,
Houston, Texas





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   Dec > Dec 3

                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:19:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 08:59:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

:
:


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: "'UFO UpDates - Toronto'" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:31:34 -0500
>
>
>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:53:02 -0500
>>From: Mendoza - Peter Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>
>Peter, thanks so much for trying to bring some sanity into the
>discussion of abductions and fear of earthly aliens -- and for
>supplying the full text of the study that might be the basis for
>the discussion.
>


Ths is an absolutely terrific posting, and vintage Sandow.  Thank's,
Greg,  for three years of some of the best reading on the list.  One
thing that always impresses me is your graciousness and your sincere
effort to place an opposing argument in the best possible light
before you gently tear it to shreds.  <g> (You never attack the
person...although you may do one nightmare of a job on their
hypothesis.)  Your postings are wonderfully entertaining, (sorry, I
didn't mean to trivialize your work), they're _civil_, and I always
learn one hell of a lot from them.  Again, thank's, Greg.

Sincerely,

Bill Weber







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   Dec > Dec 3

                     New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:31:49 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:06:26 -0500
Subject: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE November 30, 1998

PRESS CONTACT Melinda Mattei 650-558-0890 mmattei@earthlink.net

URL Source  (PDF Format)
http://www.thewordistruth.org/narr_article.cfm?id=765


Stunning Top Secret Military Documents Published On Internet
Revealing Recovery Of Extraterrestrial Vehicles And Bodies
During Truman Administration


Documents have been released as part of a larger book titled
"The Truth", available at www.TheWordIsTruth.org, placing the
events in context and providing summary of two-year
authentication effort.



SANTA CLARA, CA - November 30, 1998 - Stunning top secret
documents were released today dramatically expanding upon
previously leaked materials concerning the recovery of
extraterrestrial spacecraft and occupants in 1947. As a public
service, the materials can be downloaded at no cost at
www.TheWordIsTruth.org.

"The information contained in these documents is astounding,"
said Joseph P. Firmage, editor and co-author of the book, and
the founder and chairman of the International Space Sciences
Organization, its sponsor. Mr. Firmage is a prominent technology
executive in Silicon Valley, California.

Clear copies of the documents are being forwarded to major U.S.
news media organizations during the week of November 30, 1998.

Following a two-year authentication effort that continues today,
experts in the field have concluded that the bulk of the
documentation is genuine. "It is now absolutely clear that one
or more crashed vehicles were recovered by the military of the
United States Government in 1947. It is certain that these
vehicles were not manufactured by any contemporaneous
government. Scientists and the media who reject this claim,
particularly in the face of this most recent evidence, are
ignoring the single most important event to confront humanity in
perhaps 2,000 years," added Firmage. The document authentication
effort is being led by Dr. Robert M. Wood, Ph.D., a respected
physicist and former senior engineering manager for McDonnell
Douglas.

Among the more remarkable facts disclosed is the documents are
the following:

1. - The spacecraft employ propellantless propulsion, clearly
indicating some form of gravitational propulsion technology

2. - Several life forms were recovered among the debris,
autopsies were conducted

3. - Dr. Vannevar Bush became Chairman of an operation called
MAJESTIC TWELVE, charged with managing the recovery and ongoing
analysis of the materials

4. - Raw technological material recovered was subsequently
studied, some of which was "seeded" into private industry,
yielding advances in now-common microcircuitry, fiber optics,
materials sciences, and other applications

5. - Research programs were launched in rocketry, electronics,
biological warfare, and advanced propulsion

6. - A security infrastructure more impenetrable than any in
world history was put in place, in part through the
establishment of the National Security Act of 1947. Through
various intelligence vehicles, a program for "control of the
press" was instituted ensuring that leaks were closed and any
open scientific investigation discredited

The book containing the released documents, called The Truth,
places the phenomenon of extraterrestrial visitation in its
appropriate historical context. "The plausibility of many
seminal religious events recounted in world history is
dramatically reaffirmed by the reality of this phenomenon. Based
upon private information available to the authors but not yet in
print, I stand firmly behind the essential structure of the
astonishing hypothesis contained in this work," stated Mr.
Firmage.

"I again call upon the President and Congress of the United
States of America to waive oaths of secrecy for all civilian and
military personnel concerning the historical events presented
within documentary finds published for the first time in this
book. This is the only way to finally bring an end to a
fifty-year program of concealment. The truth must be told for
the benefit of our children, before all remaining eyewitness
testimony expires. In view of the implications of this
hypothesis, I can well appreciate and understand the genuine
motivations of those who contained the knowledge brought to
light today. But for the first time in 50 years, society is now
ready to hear the rest of the story, and the urgency of an
organizing motive for the world has never been greater,"
continued Firmage.

The International Space Sciences Organization can be reached at
1556 Halford Avenue, Suite 110 Santa Clara, CA 95051,
PH: 408-395-4378.

----------------------------------------------------------------


Keeping you informed with the latest UFO and alternative News:
UFOSEEK... For the Source!  www.ufoseek.org

"Pictures of SETI Signals from unknown engineer in the UK"
Contact1450 - Mirror Site: UPDATED (since Nov.3)
http://members.aol.com/ufoseek/CapeCanaveralHall7193/





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                    Re: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 01:15:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:12:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 02:47:56 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience

>>>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>>>Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 21:03:01 EST
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>>>I don't know if I'd characterize the majority of quotes you gave
>>>as hostile, I think they simply reflect a lack of familiarity
>>>with the subject of UFOs.

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:53:54 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:05:23 -0500
>>Subject: Re:

>>It's a dismissive lack of familiarity. The SETI scientists
>>aren't famliar with UFOs, and, most important, don't want to be,
>>because they've already made up their minds that there's nothing
>>there. I think you'd catch the tone better if I quoted really
>>lengthy passages. Frank Drake, for instance, actually went out
>>and investigated some UFO reports -- which only strengthened his
>>scorn.

>A very good example of Drake's dismissive attitude and
>scientific blinders can be found in "UFOs -- A Scientific
>Debate," edited by Sagan and Page.  In Drake's chapter, titled
>"On the Abilities and Limitations of Witnesses of UFO's and
>Similar Phenomena," Drake tried to debunk UFO witnesses by
>sharing his experiences with meteor fireball witnesses.

Brilliante! Got Drake with his pants down!
Typical Debunkerphysics. "If I can't understand how it works...
then it isn't true."

Even ol' Oberg has been caught in this "paradox."  He has
uniformly criticized witness reports as being inaccurate. Yet,
when it came to explaining a series of sighting in Sout America
about 20years ago, he relied on witness testimony to positively
identify fuel dumps from Russian rocjet launches.  There is no
doubt that he was correct... and no doubt that the witnesses
were 90% xcorrect (approximately) in their descriptions....
certainly not in their INTERPRETATIONS...but in their
descriptions.

It the the job of the investigator to separate the
interpretations from the observations and then to analyze the
observations without interpretation.

Debunkerskeptics tend to mix the two intentionally when it comes
to UFO reports and are thereby able to disparage the accuracy of
the witnesses.






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                              Re: 'Phone Noise'

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 01:16:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:19:14 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'


UpDates Moderator wrote:

[List Only, Please]

>While talking with Clifford Stone last week, setting up his
>participation in last Sunday night's 'Strange Days...Indeed',
>Cliff mentioned "phone-trouble". It seems that there were
>times in the past, while talking with 'media', his phone
>would start making inexplicable noises which drowned-out
>conversation.

>Fortunately, we didn't have any problems during the program -
>we ran a pre-produced segment containing some essential
>elements of Cliff's story at the top - but it did set me
>thinking about an incident at a radio station just outside
>Toronto in the 70's.

>David Haisell wrote about it in one of his books, an excerpt
>from which I've excerpted below.

>Do you know of any similar 'phone-noise' incidents?

>ebk


Very interesting. I have never had phone trouble but Robert
Collins (alias "Condor" in the TV show 'UFOs Cover Up Live' in
1988) about 10 years ago was looking into a case, I believe, of
a female possible/probable abductee when she complained about
strange noises and, if I recall correctly, Collin's himself had
some similar problems. I recall him asking if I wanted to
analyze a tape recording he had. I didn't analyze it, but I
think he got someon to do so.

Then there is a non-phone case, but radio noise associated with
a sighting by police and others of a craft in the center of a
river in the State of Washington or Oregon perhaps 20 years ago.

If I recall correctly, a radio on a police motorcycle parked on
the shore of th river began making strange noises that one of
the cops recorded.   Perhaps someone on this List recalls that
sighting.... I can't off-hand be more specific.





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                              Re: The Challenge

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 02:11:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:54:34 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


>From: Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: The Challenge
>Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:17:50 -0600

>An open letter/rant to "abductionologists."

<snip>

>To the Hopkin-esque and Jacob-ian folks on the list, I ask:

>__Can we be expected to rationally discuss the abduction
>phenomenon as if it involves hundreds, thousands, or millions of
>people being physically abducted by non-human beings when we
>have no proof that any, much less the majority, of these
>experiences are physically real?__

A perfectly reasonable question.

>"With all the talk about the countless acts of abductions of
>humans performed by so-called alien beings, isn't it about time
>to begin searching for physical evidence to support these
>claims?

As I hope you've seen in two of my recent posts, I strongly
agree.

>We would like to present some very simple and
>straightforward methods which could be used to attempt to
>collect physical evidence of abductions. Before we begin we
>should make clear our opinion that if attempts to collect
>physical evidence fail, this would not necessarily prove that
>abductions are dreams or products of imagination, but instead
>would discount the theory that abductions are carried out
>physical entities. Various other theories proposed (Persinger,
>etc) could not be discounted because of a lack of this type of
>physical evidence.

>It's probable that these types of experiments have been
>attempted by abductees and investigators in the past. The most
>likely reason that the results were not published or made public
>is because nothing was found, and the experimenters felt that
>this fact would be used to support the claim that the
>experiences were purely psychological in nature. By proposing
>that these types of experiments be performed we are in no way
>attempting to support a particular claim or prove a particular
>theory, but instead we hope to gather information which may be
>used to draw objective conclusions regarding the mystery of the
>abduction phenomenon.

>One of the most obvious ways to search for physical evidence
>would be to use a motion sensitive camera. Devising a crude, but
>effective motion sensitive camera should not be a challenge to
>anyone with even a basic knowledge of electronics. Although we
>have little knowledge of electronics, we feel we can safely say
>that even a camcorder attached to a motion sensor, like the kind
>used on outdoor lights, may be enough to get the job done. The
>camera could be easily set up so that anything coming near the
>bed of the abductee would set off the camera. To exclude the
>possibility of the camera's presence being detected by the eyes
>of an intruder, it could be easily concealed by hiding it where
>it would not be obviously visible.

Tim, I'm grateful for your suggestion, and for your impassioned,
reasonable tone.

As perhaps you know, there have been a number of attempts to
record abductions in progress. Some have been written about,
others not. I have no idea how many there've been in all. The
most thorough description is in a book called "Connections," by
two abductees who call themselves Beth and Anna. This, I might
add, is one of the very best abduction books ever written, not
from a scientific point of view, but as a personal account of
what it feels like to be an abductee, and what kind of things
happen (or allegedly happen) to you. Though it doesn't seem to
be very well known, I'd consider it essential reading.

Abductees with video cameras have thought of using the cameras
to either record abductions or discourage them. It never works.
David Jacobs told me once about something strange allegedly
showing up on one tape. This wasn't an abduction, but instead a
shot of the abductee walking toward the camera and reaching out
to turn it off, followed immediately by shots of the abductee
back in bed, something that would be impossible to put on
videotape if, as alleged, the abductee was the only person in
the house. The abductee reported an abduction experience that
night.

Hiding the camera wouldn't do much good with aliens who,
supposedly, can read our minds. They'd know the camera was
there. Possibly they could also know about and disable any
technology we'd set up to catch them.

Possibly -- but not inevitably. Tim, I believe very strongly
that if abductions are real, there should be some way to detect
them. I doubt a motion-sensitive camera would work, but an array
of other instruments might, especially if some were set up some
distance from the abductee's house. (Thanks to John Velez for
that last suggestion.)

Unfortunately, there are two problems in doing this. One is
money. Who's going to fund an extensive program of monitoring
and testing? Who's going to supply the equipment, and the
scientific thinking that would tell us how to set it up? I can
imagine a team being required, since it's not obvious which
technical specialties would be needed. To some extent, we'd be
delving into unknown areas. We just don't know what kind of
magnetic, electric, or other traces these alleged abduction
aliens might leave.

And the second problem is finding abductees who'd submit their
lives to all of this. Realistically, most abductees aren't
interested in being experimental guinea pigs. (In fact, many of
them already think they've played that role, but for the aliens.
They feel they've had enough of it.) I'm sure, though, that a
few abductees would volunteer. Whether they'd keep volunteering
for the many months a program like this would require is another
story.

There are other kinds of physical evidence we might look for.
I'd like, for instance, to see thorough medical exams of a large
sampling of abductees, in an effort to find out if there are
medical facts that set abductees apart from the general
population. (Thanks to David Pritchard for that suggestion.)

Secondly, I'd like much more study of the marks that abductees
say appear on them. Can we verify that these marks do appear,
and that they really are anomalous? Ideally we'd have a good
sampling of abductees examined each evening and each morning by
paramedics, who could certify that marks did (or didn't) appear
overnight, as abductees claim.

Finally (though I think this list could, and should, be a lot
longer) I'd like to see medical documentation of other things
that abductees claim. I wrote about this in my posts to Michael
Christol. Abductees say things were done to their bodies, and
that doctors, on examining them, have expressed astonishment.
But we never hear from the doctors. I can imagine all sorts of
difficulties in getting doctors to go on the record with things
they can't explain, but somewhere there's got to be a doctor
who'll do that .Likewise for the famous missing fetuses. If
pregnancies really are arising and disappearing without
explanation, somewhere there's got to be a physician who'll talk
about that.

Greg Sandow





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                  Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 03:55:17 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 13:00:52 -0500
Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House
>Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 14:39:55 -0500

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 03:24:05 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 15:58:15 +0000
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>>>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>>>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:07:18 -0500
>>>>Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 10:35:24 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: SETI Scientists Petition White House

>>In answer to your questions, Roger.

>>I do not hope that SETI fails.  The limited thinking of some
>>members of the human race notwithstanding, there is no reason to
>>hope for the failure of any legitimate enterprise done by
>>sincere people who are dedicated to advancing the sum total of
>>human knowledge.

>Jim,

>If I say hello to a blinking light bulb and it blinks back to
>me, I should pause and wrinkle my ears to see if the light bulb
>blinks back.  With an optimistic 30 years interval between the
>blinking-hello-blinking-wrinkling-blinking-what_the_hell_is_happ
>ening, that gets us to 120 years, assuming:

>1. that a significant blinking occurs today;

>2. that tomorrow morning an obscure Professor Neutron comes out
>with a gizmo that can send a wrinkling radio signal 30
>light-years away;

>3. that, unlike SETI, Some ET Is not only listening but also
>sending, a situation that will avoid a 3-Stooges-joke with
>everybody listening but nobody making noise.

>Sincere people dedicated to advancing the sum total of human
>knowledge would figuratively sell their grandmother to get a
>signal. Contact with an alien intelligence is what this is all
>about.

>I cannot reconcile legitimacy, sincerity and dedication with the
>position SETI has taken towards ufology - a position which
>explicitly denies those qualities and casts serious and
>_legitimate_ doubts on the motives of the SETI proponents.

>I you can cope with such contradictions, I refuse to do so.

>Did somebody turn off the lights? I am beginning to suspect that
>all the Top Secret fuzz around UFOs is only a cover-up for
>Professor Neutron.

>Serge Salvaille
>AKA Duke MaybeIAmProfessorNeutronAndIDontKnowIt


Hey Serge.... hang onto your space helmet guy. If you read my
previous posts, you would realize that I personally think SETI
is a waste of time, money and brainpower.  We agree to a point.

However to wish anyone ill by virtue of their commitment,
however you or I may disagree, is a highly malodorous
bucket of monkey droppings.... with the handles on the
inside, eh?

We think SETI is a waste.  SETI thinks we are a waste. It begins
to become rather childish after a while.  I can almost hear,
"Nya, nya!" coming from the peanut gallery.

And in my opinion at least, it does not follow that because they
don't like us, we have to reciprocate.

No, I do not wish SETI ill.  Or anyone for that matter.

Except my mother in law, your Attilla the Huns...  or your
Attillas the Hun.

Oh, and maybe my brother in law.  He's a US Postal worker who
gives the entire Postal Service it's bad name.

I would like to give this one a rest.... it's all wrung out.
And I have much too much to do than focus on something which I
have no interest in as a ham or an engineer or even as a
possible experiencer.

Nuff aready.

Jim






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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis@ccsi.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:54:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 18:39:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>To: UFOUpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: UFOUpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 15:32:10 PST


Gosh, how I do get sick of scrolling past all the above data, sigh.

<snip>

>Nor of Polish-Americans, American Indians, Italian-Americans,
>Korean-Americans, Jewish Americans, German-Americans,
>Anglo-Americans, Hispanic Americans (a broad category of people
>from a variety of different Latin cultures), Icelandic
>Americans, Dutch Americans, Scandinavian Americans,
>Chinese-Americans, Japanese-Americans, and so on and on.  This
>is a circle which can indeed be measured anywhere. Frankly, this
>doesn't strike me as the most urgent of all research projects,
>but anybody who wants to pursue it has my best wishes.

>Jerry Clark

Thanks for the best wishes for these and other areas are exactly
where I am interested in doing some research. And you are right
when you describe this branch of ufology as akin to literary
criticism. I AM a librarian and so look upon all the UFO
literature as DATA which if only we had a better classsification
system we might apprehend some meaning (not the "objects"
themselves). Since we only have the UFOs effects to examine
(ie- eye witness narrative and effects upon the
witness/plants/animals/appliances) I suggest that is where we
keep looking. And since effects upon the witness creates effects
within the societies  which we  live in, I'd like to know as
much about the witnesses as I would about the "objects."

Just cracking open the first UFO related study that comes to
mind which might actually have some numbers to add to this
dialogue (of course its more of a social study but..) I whipped
out Dr. Kenneth Rings 'The Omega Project' which includes its
battery of questions put to NDE-ers, UFO-ers as well as people
"concerned" with NDEs or UFOs.

Out of 264 totaly completed responses the spread was NDE=74,
NDC=54, UFOE=97, UFOC=39

Amongst the background info questionaire was the question of
Race, however, this background info result is not listed in the
appendixes' list of battery question responses. I would be very
curious to see the % of black respondants to all of the above
categories within this study.

For that matter, if anyone on the list is in contact with
Hopkins, Strieber, Jacobs, Mack and others who are likely to
have significant databases on UFO/abduction experiencers,
please send them a message asking simply what percentage of
their contacts is Black (and go ahead and ask for an across the
board list of other ethnicities) so we can get some actual data
on this real question that has been raised on this list.

Now for my rambling spare changes worth of thots on the matter:

First, an aside; when was it first suggested that their were
geographical archetypes of UFO occupants/entities? i.e. North
American Gray, South American Hairy Dwarf, Anglo-European
Nordic, Mediterranean/East Indian Humanoid (short black hair
widows peak style)? Was this trend in entity demographics
reported as evident as far back as the late sixties, early
seventies. I think John Spencer's 'World Atlas of UFOs' dealt
with this a little  at the beginning of each chapter's
geocentric introdruction (which featured Dennis Stacy,Edoardo
Russo, Hilary Evans, and Cynthia Hind of African MUFON who says:


"...the African cultures readily allow for paranormal
happenings.

However, spacecraft, the Extra-Terrestrial Hypothesis, and UFOs,
are totally alien to black African literature and folklore. This
lack of knowledge is often compounded by lack of foreign
currency in the the developing countries to purchase books on
UFOs from overseas. Thus, when I approach witnesses in cases of
supposed sightings or contacts, I can be 99 percent certain that
their interpretation will be representative only of _their_
(italics hers) culture."


Back when my friend Jean Staffen created the Austin UFOAbductee
Support Group (which under my 6+ years of  leadership  became
the Austin UFO Experiencer Support Group and more

see: http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/aaarchives/AUFOSG/AUFOSG.htm

we were concerned (in a quandry, rather) at the lack of certain
minorities (it was a publicly held and advertised meeting in a
free room at the downtown public library) specificly Black
experiencers. We speculated amongst ourselves, particularly
while with our mutual anthropologist/folklorist friend Susan
Lepselter

see: http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL2/SLAJSanth.html

all the possible sociological reasons for blacks and other
minorities being more relectuant perhaps to report to a white
majority ufology.

We also considered the possibility that, if the unconscious
belief systems of each percipient somehow effects the molding of
a transcultural UFO phenomena (that is simply the perception of
an unidentified/unassimiliated "object"), then perhaps each
cultures likelihood of experiencing something which to them
suggests UFOand so should be reported to ufologists, would be
less for their unconscious beliefs would have imposed a perhaps
religious experience.

For example, we know of Hispanics who have reported UFO
experiences. However we also see more reports of Religious
Apparitions amongst them. Obviously, someone of a strong
religious conviction who also has seen or heard of the idea of
ufos as non-earth intelligences and who perceives an aerial
unknown and then entities associated with it is capable of
perhaps viewing their experience in both lights and making a
decision for themselve whether it was a religious/paranormal
or alien / extraterrestrial experience.

More often tho, it seems that the people who KNOW it was a UFO
or a spiritual (or demonic) entity are those already caught up
in the that 'myth' i.e. belief system. Did Clark & Coleman's 'The
Unidentified' address this?

Well I wish I had more time to put my thots together on this but
I hafta get ready for my day job.

Suffice to say I was happy to see my colleague Mizrach's paper
cited amongst the list during this discussion, despite the
rancorous contentions on both side.


Peace
SMiles

--

Stephen MILES Lewis

Writer, Designer, Producer, Editor
& INFORMATIONALIST

E.L.F. INFESTED SPACES -
Journal of Possible Paradigms

mailto:elfis@ccsi.com

ELFIS OnLine :
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin

ELFIS Archive :
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL0/ELFOLARC.html

ELFIS Links :
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/links/ELFLinks.htm





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                    Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 48

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:48:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 18:42:34 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 48


>Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:29:50 +0000
>To: Masinaigan <Masinaigan@aol.com>
>From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
>Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 48

>     UFO ROUNDUP
>Volume 3, Number 48
>November 30, 1998
>Editor: Joseph Trainor

<snip>

>DAYLIGHT DISC STALKS
>JETLINER IN WEST VIRGINIA

>     On Wednesday, November 18, 1998, Jerry F.
>and his daughter were leaving their home in
>Cross Lanes, West Virginia (population 2,130)
>when he spotted a strange glimmer in the sky.
>     "My daughter and I were leaving our home at
>approximately 8 a.m.," Jerry reported, "I leave at
>this time every day to take her to school, and
>then I drive to work.  As I entered the garage, I
>looked up into the sky to see a jet--a (Boeing) 727--
>fly overhead.  It was high up enough that it left a
>very clear contrail.  Suddenly, at a very close

<snip>

List,

Maybe it's not so important, but, I wonder whether they're still
flying the old B 727 (as passanger) planes in W. Virginia?


Regards,
AWS






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               Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 10:58:35 PST
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 18:46:37 -0500
Subject: Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald


>Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 21:47:15 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald
>>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 16:31:09 PST

>Jerry,

>I can certainly understand your feelings toward Dr. Hynek as he
>was a personal friend.

My feelings about baseless charges against Allen Hynek have
nothing to do with my friendship -- not an especially close one,
by the way -- with him.  It has to do with casual slandering of
people's names and reputations, which is what I see going on
with charges like the ones you're circulating.


>However, I have to say that many people have sections of their
>lives that are unknown even to their closest friends.  A recent
>example of this being the case is now being played out publicly

>regarding a well known political figure, isn't it.

If you are talking about Bill Clinton, you're wrong. Clinton's
sexual excesses were known by both his friends and enemies long
ago, and they were something of a running joke among the people
of  Arkansas long before Clinton became a national figure.

>There is a clear pattern to Dr. Hynek's activities extending
>over four decades.   Many of his associations were dubious.  In
>my opinion the conclusion is all but forced unfortunately by the

>facts.

>The facts speak for themselves:

>1) Hynek was a paid government consultant or direct employee for
>his whole career, all of it.

So?

>2) For much of that time he posed as an independent scientist
>"interested in UFOs" and under that rubric collected an enormous
>amount of information for his employers.

Where is your evidence?  This is a statement based wholly on
presumption and paranoia.  There is no evidence that Allen's
"employers" -- I assume you mean the Air Force -- had any
interest in UFOs after Blue Book closed down; in fact, the AF
was barely interested in UFOs even before Blue Book ended.  For
years Allen and Blue Book head Col. Quintanilla were hardly on
speaking terms.  They openly detested each other.  That's clear
in both the private record (internal memoranda and
correspondence I've examined) and the public record (most
recently the excerpts from Quintanilla's memoirs published in
The Anomalist 4 [Autumn 1996]).

>3) When the chips went down, as in the "swamp gas" incident or
>the flap over Condon, our old buddy Dr. Hynek abandoned the UFO
>to its fate, and had nothing to say of substance.

Allen had a great deal to say of substance.  The UFO Experience
remains one of the enduring classics of the UFO literature.  It
is true that in his later years he grew more interested in being
a celebrity than in conducting serious UFO research, but hell,
he was an old man.  I don't condemn him for this.  In his career
he did a great deal for all of us.  He also made big mistakes,
no question, but his coming-out as a UFO advocate, however
belated, amounted to an act of great courage.

>Sure, he was affable, even charming -- hell, who would YOU want
>as your interface with the skeptical-of-government public!
>Hynek was 10.0 on a ten point scale in that regard, able to go
>anywhere and mix agreeably with almost anyone.  But look at what
>was ACTUALLY going on, folks, during the time that dear Dr.
>Hynek was the godfather of ufology, and after he was effectively
>"blown" as Air Force explanator plenipotentiary.  The Big Boys
>never throw away an asset, that I've ever seen.

This is somewhere between rank speculation and vicious slander.

>As for Mr. Sherm Larsen, I'm sure he was a great guy, just like
>Dr. Hynek.  Are we just supposed to IGNORE the fact of who he
>was, just as we are apparently to ignore who Bryan et. al.
>(NICAP's executioners) were?
>Those who aren't aware of Sherm
>Larsen's background can check his biography, I believe it was
>published in the 1973 MUFON National Convention Proceedings.

Can you give us one -- let me repeat, one -- item of evidence
that Sherm Larsen was a double agent?  Or do you prefer, since
you can't provide that evidence, just to continue the casual
slandering of individuals who spark your paranoid imagination?


>The fact remains that for years, and even decades, Hynek was
>regularly reporting to and taking money from the on-the-record
>enemies of the "UFO", even as he traveled the nation as the
>champion of same.

What does this mean?  That he did consulting work for the Air
Force, even after Blue Book closed?  So what?  The Air Force had
and has a much larger national-security function than simply
being "on-the-record enemies of the UFO."


>I would like to bring to your attention the insulting and/or
>inflammatory words you used in your response to my posting by my
>listing them below.  List readers will have to judge for
>themselves the purpose that they serve.

>"just silly"
>"baseless paranoia"
>"this is garbage"
>"sinister agent"
>"sinister conspiracies"
>"imagined, reasons"
>"not just silly, it's downright hilarious"
>"fantastic and absurd grounds"
>"one of the dumbest postings I've ever seen"
>"wasted by exposure to this sort of paranoid delirium"
>"the dimensions of human folly and paranoia"

Alas, all of them all too true.

Gary, I would like to believe that in other aspects of your life
you are a good guy.  Here, however, you are flat-out wrong.
Worse, you're engaged in inexcusable slanders, on the basis
solely of a whole lot of quantum-leaping in logic, of good,
decent people who, all their human failings and limitations
notwithstanding, tried to make a contribution to serious UFO
study.  It's not just that you don't know what you're talking
about -- and you don't -- it's that you fail to exercise the
sort of restraint any decent, thoughtful critic would deem
esssential before going out into the world to make some of the
most serious charges imaginable.

The casual trashing of people's good names and reputations with
no evidence except your own wishful thinking is an act of
appalling recklessness.  You need to do some serious
soul-searching, I'm afraid.

Jerry Clark






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   Dec > Dec 3

                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:27:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 18:49:21 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:31:49 EST
>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: NEW MJ-12 Documents on the Internet!!!

>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE November 30, 1998

>PRESS CONTACT Melinda Mattei 650-558-0890 mmattei@earthlink.net

>URL Source  (PDF Format)
>http://www.thewordistruth.org/narr_article.cfm?id=765

>Stunning Top Secret Military Documents Published On Internet
>Revealing Recovery Of Extraterrestrial Vehicles And Bodies
>During Truman Administration

I have been perusing these documents.  One, in particular, had
some intriguing information:

http://www.thewordistruth.org/img/uploads/13.pdf

quoting from p. 5 of this alleged 1st annual report from MJ12
(dated 1952):

"F. Biological Warfare Programs

BW programs in US and UK are in field test stages.  Discovery of
new virus and bacteria agents so lethal, that serums derived by
genetic research, can launch medical science into unheard of
fields of biology.  The samples extracted from bodies found in
New Mexico, have yielded new strains of a retro-virus not
totally understood, but, give promise of the ultimate BW weapon.
The danger lies in the spread of airborne and blood borne
outbreaks of diseases in large populations, with no medical
cures available."

Did we know about retro-virii in 1952?  Anyway, this section
combined with the following report on p. 9:

"8.  The Panel was concerned over the contamination of several
SED personnel upon coming in contact with debris near the power
plant. One technician was overcomed (sic) and collasped (sic)
when he attempted the removal of a body.  Another medical
technician went into a coma four hours after placing a body in a
rubber body-bag. All four were rushed to Los Alamos for
observation.  All four later died of seizures and profuse
bleeding.  All four were wearing protective suits when they came
in contact with body fluids from the occupants."

No wonder the Ebola vector is so elusive!

Elsewhere, in other documents, the lack of recognizable controls
for the alien craft was discussed.  There were no dials, meters,
nor buttons; but, there is the mention of "panels" which might
have been
used for direct mental control.

Shades of Santilli!

Terry






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                              Re: The Challenge

From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:13:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 18:59:16 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: The Challenge
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 02:11:42 -0500

>>From: Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: The Challenge
>>Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:17:50 -0600


Kudos to you both (as well as other participants) for a
civilized and interesting debate.  If ufology would approach all
its conundrums with the same good will, we might get a lot
further.

I am not an experiencer, and so I have no basis to judge the
abduction phenomenon.  But I have known several abductees
and I am in absolutely no doubt that they sincerely believe
in the reality of their experience, so much so that some have
dramatically and permanently changed their lives as a
consequence.  Such drastic changes seem to be by no
means unusual with experiencers of this phenomenon.

Some years ago, I regularly experienced sleep paralysis.  And
although I, too experienced symptoms such as difficulty in
breathing, a sense of panic, and the sure belief that someone
else was in the room with me, never at any time did I believe
that I had experienced anything more than, as I put it
at the time, "having my mind wake up before my body."

It seems to me that abductees are experiencing something
of an altogether more 'powerful' nature (I'm sure some of them
have experienced sleep paralysis, which is not uncommon, and
can readily distinguish between it and a 'genuine' abduction
experience).

On a final and personal note (and, as someone with a fairly
conventional scientific background) this is difficult fo me to
write), although I have followed the UFO phenomenon for many
years, I do not discuss it with my family, nor do I have books
strewn around the house.  It therefore sent a shiver down my
spine when my five year old son came into our room two nights
ago and said that he was getting tired of little people with big
back eyes standing around his bed every night.








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   Dec > Dec 3

                              Re: 'Phone Noise'

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:19:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 19:03:38 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'


>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 01:16:02 -0500
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: 'Phone Noise'
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>UpDates Moderator wrote:

>[List Only, Please]

>>While talking with Clifford Stone last week, setting up his
>>participation in last Sunday night's 'Strange Days...Indeed',
>>Cliff mentioned "phone-trouble". It seems that there were
>>times in the past, while talking with 'media', his phone
>>would start making inexplicable noises which drowned-out
>>conversation.

>>Fortunately, we didn't have any problems during the program -
>>we ran a pre-produced segment containing some essential
>>elements of Cliff's story at the top - but it did set me
>>thinking about an incident at a radio station just outside
>>Toronto in the 70's.

>>David Haisell wrote about it in one of his books, an excerpt

>>Do you know of any similar 'phone-noise' incidents?

>>ebk

[Bruce's response deleted for brevity]

It probably good to keep in mind that there are many causes for
phone noise these days, and nearly all of them are probably
explainable.  With the number of satellite and microwave relay
hops involved in many phone links there is a greater possibility
of interference, and sometimes that would appear as described
above.







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                  Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc

From: Moderator, UFO UpDates
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 19:34:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 19:34:53 -0500
Subject: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc




There's been some fairly intense "these documents aren't new!"
discussion scudding across the Net.

One of the longer 'new' files is below. Thanks to Joseph P. Firmage
and Bob Woods & Son for making it and others available at:

www.TheWordIsTruth.org

Sometimes difficult to get in but.....

ebk

--------------------------------------


                         TOP SECRET





                                               DRAFT June 1947

              Relationships with Inhabitants
                   of Celestrial Bodies

        Relationships with extraterrestrial men presents
no basically new problem from the standpoint of international
law: but the possibility of confronting intelligent beings
that do not belong to the human race would bring us problems
whose solution it is difficult to conceive.

        In principle, there is no difficulty in accepting the
possibility of coming to an understanding with them, and of
establishing all kinds of relationships. The difficulty lies
in trying to establish the principles on which these
relationships should be based.

        In the first place, it would be necessary to establish
communication with them through some language or other, and
afterwards, as a first condition for all intelligence, that
they should have a psychology similar to that of men.

        At any rate, international law should make place for
a new law on a different basis, and it might be called "Law
Among Planetary Peoples", following the guidelines found in
the Pentateuch. Obviously, the idea of revolutionizing
international law to the point where it would be capable of
coping with situations would compel us to make a change
in its structure, a change so basic that it would no longer
be international law, that is to say, as it is conceived
today, but something altogether different, so that it could
no longer bear the same name.

        If these intelligent beings were in possession of a
more or less culture, and a more or less perfect political
organization, they would have an absolute right to be
recognised as independent and sovereign peoples, we would
have to come to an agreement with them to establish the
legal regulations upon which future relationships should be
based, and it would be necessary to accept many of their
principles.

        Finally, if they should reject all peaceful
cooperation and become an imminent threat to the earth, we
would have the right to legitimate defense, but only insofar
as would be necessary to annul this danger.

                          *****

        Another possibility may exist, that a species of homo
sapiens might have established themselves as an independent
nation on another celestrial body in our solar system and

                           -1-



evolved culturally independently from ours. Obviously, this
possibility depends on many circumstances, whose conditions
cannot yet be foreseen. However, we can make a study of the
basis on which such a thing might have occurred.

        In the first place, living conditions on these bodies
lets say the moon, or the planet Mars, would have to be such
as to permit a stable, and to a certain extent, independent
life, from an economic standpoint. Much has been speculated
about the possibilities for life existing outside of
our atmosphere and beyond, always hypothetically, and there are
those who go so far as to give formulas for the creation of
an artificial atmosphere on the moon, which undoubtedly have
a certain scientific foundation, and which may one day come
to light. Let's assume that magnesium silicates on the moon
may exist and contain up to 13 percent water. Using energy
and machines brought to the moon, perhaps from a space station,
the rocks could be broken up, pulverized, and then backed to
drive of the water of crystallization. This could be collected
and then decomposed into hydrogen and oxygen, using an electric
current or the short wave radiation of the sun. The oxygen
could be used for breathing purposes; the hydrogen might be
used as a fuel.

        In any case, if no existence is possible on celestrial
bodies except for enterprises for the exploration of their
natural riches, with a continuous interchange of the men who
work on them, unable to establish themselves there indefinitely
and be able to live isolated life, independence will never
take place.

                          *****

        Now we come to the problem of determining what to
do if the inhabitants of celestrial bodies, or extraterrestrial
biological entities (EBE) desire to settle here.

        1. If they are politically organised and possess a
certain culture similar to our own, they may be recognised as
a independent people. They could consider what degree of
development would be required on earth for colonizing.

        2. If they consider our culture to be devoid of political
unity, they would have the right to colonize. Of course, this
colonization cannot be conducted on classic lines.

        A superior form of colonizing will have to be conceived,
that could be a kind of tutelage, possibly through the tacit
approval of the United Nations. But would the United Nations
legally have the right of allowing such tutelage over us in such
a fashion?
                           -2-



        (a)  Although the United Nations is an
international organisation, there is no doubt that it would
have no right of tutelage, since its domain does not extend
beyond relationships between its members. It would have the
right to intervene only if the relationships of a member
nation with a celestrial body affected another member nation
with an extraterrestrial people is beyond the domain of the
United Nations. But if these relationships entailed a
conflict with another member nation, the United Nations would
have the right to intervene.

        (b) If the United Nations were a supra-national
organisation, it would have competency to deal with all
problems related to extraterrestrial peoples. Of course,
even though it is merely an international organization, it
could have this competence if its member states would be
willing to recognise it.

                          *****

        It is difficult to predict what the attitude of
international law will be with regard to the occupation by
celestrial peoples of certain locations on our planet, but
the only thing that can be foreseen is that there will be
a profound change in traditional concepts.

        We cannot exclude the possibility that a race of
extraterrestrial people more advanced technologically and
economically may take upon itself the right to occupy
another celestrial body. How, then, would this occupation
come about?

        1. The idea of exploitation by one celestrial
state would be rejected, they may think it would be advisable
to grant it to all others capable of reaching another
celestrial body. But this would be to maintain a situation
of privilege for these states.

        2. The division of a celestrial body into zones
and the distribution of them among other celestrial states.
This would present the problem of distribution. Moreover,
other celestrial states would be deprived of the possibility
of owning an area, or if they were granted one it would
involve complicated operations.

        3. Indivisible co-sovereignty, giving each celestrial
state the right to make whatever use is most convenient to
its interests, independently of the others. This would
create a situation of anarchy, #@ the strongest one would
win out in the end.

        4. A moral entity? The most feasible solution it

                         -3-




seems would be this one, submit an agreement providing for the
peaceful absorption of a celestrial race(S) in such a manner
that our culture would remain intact with guarantees that
their presence not be revealed.

        Actually, we do not believe it necessary to go that
far. It would merely be a matter of internationalizing
celestrial peoples, and creating an international treaty
instrument preventing exploitation of all nations belonging
to the United Nations.

                          *****

        Occupation by states here on earth, which has lost
all interest for international law, since there were no more
_res_nullius_ territories, is beginning to regain all its
importance in cosmic international law.

        Occupation consists in the appropriation by a state
of _res_nullius_.

        Until the last century, occupation was the normal
means of acquiring sovereignty over territories, when
explorations made possible the discovery of new regions,
either uninhabited or in an elementary state of civilization.

        The imperialist expansion of the states came to an
end with the end of regions capable of being occupied, which
have now been drained from the earth and exist only in
interplanetary space, where the celestrial states present
new problems.

                          *****

        _Res_nullius_ is something that belongs to nobody such
as the moon. In international law a celestrial body is not
subject to the sovereignty of any state is considered _res_
_nullius_. If it could be established that a celestrial body
within our solar system such as our moon was, or is occupied
by another celestrial race, there could be no claim of _res_
_nullius_ by any state on earth (if that state should decide
in the future to send explorers to lay claim to it). It would
exist as _re_nullius_, that is that all celestrial states
have the same rights over it.

                          *****

        And now to the final question of whether the presence
of celestrial astroplanes in our atmosphere is a direct
result of our testing atomic weapons?

        The presence of unidentified space craft flying in
our atmosphere (and possibly maintaining orbits about our
planet) is now, however, accepted by us de facto by our military.
                          -4-



        On every question of whether the United States will
continue testing of fission bombs and develop fusion devices
(hydrogen bombs), or reach an agreement to disarm and the
exclusion of weapons that are too destructive, with the
exception of chemical warfare, on which, by some miracle we
cannot explain, an agreement has been reached, the
lamentations of philosophers, the efforts of politicians, and
the conferences of diplomats have been doomed to failure and
have accomplished nothing.

        The use of the atomic bomb combined with space
vehicles poses a threat on a scale which makes it absolutely
necessary to come to an agreement in this area. With the
appearance of unidentified space vehicles (opinions are
sharply divided as to their origin) over the skies of Europe
and the United States has sustained an ineradicable fear, an
anxiety about security, that is driving the great powers to
make an effort to find a solution to the threat.

        Military strategists foresee the use of space craft
with nuclear warheads as the ultimate weapon of war. Even
the deployment of artificial satellites for intelligence
gathering and target selection is not far off. The military
importance of space vehicles, satellites as well as rockets
is indisputable, since they project war from the horizontal
plane to the vertical plane in its fullest sense. Attack no
longer comes from an exclusive direction, nor from a
determined country, but from the sky, with the practical
impossibility of determining who the aggressor is, how to
intercept the attack, or how to effect immediate reprisals.
These problems are compounded further by identification.
How does the air defence radar operator identify, or more
precisely, classify his target?

        At present, we can breath a little easier knowing
that slow moving bombers are the mode of delivery of atomic
bombs that can be detected by long-range early warning radar.
But what do we do in lets say ten years from now? When
artificial satellites and missiles find their place in space,
we must consider the potential threat that unidentified
space craft pose. One must consider the fact that
mis-identification of these space craft for a intercontinental
missile in a re-entry phase of flight could lead to accidental
nuclear war with horrible consequences.

        Lastly, we should consider the possibility that our
atmospheric tests of late could have influenced the arrival
of celestrial scrutiny. They could have been curious or even
alarmed by such activity (and rightly so, for the Russians
would make every effort to observe and record such tests).

        In conclusion, it is our professional opinion based on
submitted data that this situation is extremely perilous, and

                           -5-



measures must be taken to rectify a very serious problem are
very apparent.

                                Respectfully,

                                    /s/

                                Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer

                                Director of Advanced Studies
                                Princeton, New Jersey


                                    /s/

                                Professor Albert Einstein
                                Princeton, New Jersey




      Myself and Marshall have read this and I must admit  there
      is some logic. But I hardly think the President will consider
      it for the obvious reasons. I understand Oppenheimer
      approached Marshall when they attended ceremony at
                 As I understand it Marshall rebuffed the idea
      of Oppenheimer discussing this with the President. I talked
      to Gordon, and he agreed.

                           [initialled]

                                  VB




                                -6-





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                              Re: 'Phone Noise'

From: Diane Lovett <rambld@erols.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:56:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:36:14 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>To: UFO UpDates Subscribers <UFO UpDates Subscribers>
>Date: Wed, Dec 2, 98 4:07 PM
>Subject: UFO UpDate: 'Phone Noise'


EBK and List,

I have had this type of noise, static, beeps, etc., on phone
lines for many years now, when discussing ET and abduction
topics with other abductees, researchers, etc.

It has over the years effectively ended many such conversations.

I have also heard many other abductees complain of the same
problem, and it in general it is accepted as being "them"
listening in and interfering when discussions are getting too
close for comfort so to speak.

Personally I have found it happens most often whenever any phone
conversation is about shared sighting or abduction events, as
though we are not allowed to compare notes. I know it sounds
like the x-files, but I do think you will find it happens a lot.

Diane






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                       The Missing Data From Slovenia

From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 19:46:44 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:41:14 -0500
Subject: The Missing Data From Slovenia


Dear Errol and List Memebers,

I have recently had another message from 'Jimmy' in Croatia and he
has sent the following message which has been reformatted by me to
(hopefully!) suit the List guidelines:


Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 06:14:24 -0600
From: JIMMY <9a4ag@clarc.org>
To: jhayes@cableinet.co.uk
Subject: THE MISSING DATA FROM SLOVENIA

DISTRIBUTION FOR UFO GROUPS:

Well the UFO SIGHTINGS situation in Croatia is quiet for now. In
the mean time I am trying to establish contacts with people from
the near countries where it is hard to get UFO REPORTS (Romania
etc). For example there was no any UFO news from Slovenia for a
long time. Well I am interested in Slovenia especialy because
during the 70s in Slovenia was active APRO member Miloss Krmelj.
But in the last decade Slovenia was misteriously silent in the
sense of UFO SIGHTINGS.

Accidentaly I have few days ago meet the person at IRC channel
#UFO with nick ProteusBJ. I have exchanged few lines with
ProteusBJ and we have discussed about UFO situation there. He
has give me some missing data and recent history of Ufology in
Slovenia. Altough ProteusBJ wish to stay  anonimous he adds that
if anyone wants to ask for furhter info he can be contacted at
his e-mail address which is: proteusbj@hotmail.com

Ok this is his report for me: (PRIVATE NOTES IN THE MAIL ARE
DELETED)...

>From: "Proteus BJ" <proteusbj@hotmail.com>
>To: 9a4ag@clarc.org
>Subject: sort of a report on sighting
>Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:02:44 PST

>Hello again, AGETI.

>As I promised, I have written the "report" on the two possible UFO
>sightings that have occured in Slovenia (well other sightings have
>been reported, naturally, but these two have imprinted in my
>memories the most).

>SIGHTING 1:
>Place: Ljubljana, Slovenia (then republic of Yugoslavia)
>Date: Monday, 12.8.1991 (well, I can make mistakes on IRC, sorry (I
>said it was 1989) ;))))
>Time: around 20:30 pm

>approximate degree of sighting: 30 degrees Northwest
>Enviromental conditions: summer, warm, no wind, no breeze, dry,
>clouded sky, some lightning

>Possible UFO description:

>Shape: hard to say, but most witnesses I talked to (my neighbours)
>said it was deltoid like
>Number of objects: presumably 1
>Sound: None
>Movement: hovering
>Color: presumably black

>"Story":
>On that date, at that time I was taking a walk with my dog. I came
>home. My mother told me that an UFO was spotted by my neighbours.
>The next day (Tuesday) the local radio - Radio Ljubljana VAL 202
>(98,9 Mhz) had a show about the sighting. Numerous people called the
>show and shared their info. A telephone number was given so that
>witnesses could be given a form, on which they would write the info
>on the sighting and send it back to-----------(I don't remember, but
>I think it was Krmelj - don't take my word for it!).The object was
>not only seen on the outskirts of Ljubljana, but also nearby towns
>(don't remember which, and I also don't want to say, beacuse I could
>be giving disinfo) as far out as some 20-30 km (or more, again don't
>remember exactly). I talked to my neighbours, which described the
>sighting to me. The object made no sound and was hovering over the
>land. They saw it from their balcony. To clarify that, I live in the
>same block, but my balcony is on the other side. Theirs was turned
>Northwest so they had quite an open and clear view. They saw two
>huge, incredibly bright lights on the object. They said that the
>object was quite some distance away, above the fields, not very
>near, but nevertheless it still appeared to be huge and the lights
>were almost the size of the moon in the summer, each. After some
>time the object turned around and then they could see what they
>think was the rear, beacuse of so many tiny, multicolor lights.
>A second or two after the object turned it zapped away with
>blinding speed (in which >direction, I don't know).

>Sorry about all those "don't remember"s, but this sighting was
the reason I became interested in UFOs. I had no idea what
information I should acquire. All of the info is true in general,
>but exact dates, times and other data may have been mismemorized
>by me (brain, don't let me down). I have no details about the
>radio show as I can't remember without gravely giving lies and
>misinformation. This was just to tell you that something did
>really happen back then.

>"SIGHTING" 2:
>Well, this isn't a sighting, but rather an account of a strange
>event.In the week of 26. - 31.10.1998, possibly on the 29th (can't
>remember the exact day), the main radio programme (Radio Slovenija
>VAL 202; 98,9 Mhz) broadcasted the usual morning news at 7:30 am.
>After the news, the comentator reported, that numerous people called
>the station and reported a strange object on the vast region of
>marshes near Ljubljana called Ljubljansko Barje. The exact place was
>never reported. The commentator said that the station dispatched the
>news crew to check it out. The object was reported to have been
>silver and shone very bright. It hovered over the marshes. No
>further details. Later I listened to the radio station, but no
>further news was given. Back then was the 70th annual anniversary of
>the Radio station. I thought they used the H.G. Wells' trick - the
>War of the Worlds. But they said nothing about the report being a
>hoax. All day long, there was no further details. There were no
>further details in the folowing weeks. There are still none. I
>talked to my friend and he said that he also heard this on another
>radio station - Radio Salomon, a seperate radion house.
>Now on the following Sunday - 1st of November, two of my friends saw
>a bright ball of fire dissappearing behid a hill. They say they saw
>it for only a glimpse, and that it was almost twice the size of the
>moon visible at that night (which was quite small, but two combined
>gets you a pretty large ball).

>Well that's it. If my memory hasn't left me down, I had the basics
>done, the details still need to be checked out. Partially it's my
>fault, as I have jotted down the info on a piece of paper several
>days later. If you have any questions, please, ask them, I'll try to
>answer them.

Re-sent by:
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AGETI - WORLD WIDE HAMRADIO GROUP
ANALYTICAL GROUP FOR EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL INFORMATIONS
---------------------------------------------------------------------
MAIN SYSOP:                          |  POST ADDRESS:
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                                     |  23000 ZADAR
                                     |  CROATIA, EUROPE
---------------------------------------------------------------------
TELEPHONE:                           |  PACKET RADIO ADDRESS:
for international calls:             |  9A4AG@9A0YSI.SBK.HRV.EU
+385-23-430-970                      |
for calls inside Croatia:            |  E-MAIL ADDRESS:
023/430-970                          |  9a4ag@s55tcp.ampr.org
                                     |  or
                                     |  9a4ag@9a0tcp.ampr.org
                                     |  or
                                     |  9a4ag@clarc.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
INTERACTIVE CONFERENCE MODE  |  9A4AG's and AGETI HOME PAGE:
                             |  http://www.clarc.org/~9a4ag
AMPRn WW UFO channel 1947    |
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AGETI IS A GROUP OF RADIO-AMATEURS WHO ARE EXCHANGING WORLD WIDE
INFORMATIONS, VIEWS AND NEWS ABOUT THE EXTRA-TERRESTIRAL SUBJECT!!!
=====================================================================


John Hayes

jhayes@cableinet.co.uk
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com
UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/
Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/
UFOICQ Australian UFO Reports and Experiences:-
        http://ufoinfo.com/ufoicq/





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   Dec > Dec 3

                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:31:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 21:52:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:15:07 -0500

>The problem _is_ those dang Puerto Ricans.  And you know the
>ones I'm talking about.  They always show up at the neighborhood
>Polka Party we Americans have on the weekends in every city and
>town across this great country of ours.  ...about three feet
>tall, hairless, huge eyes, dressed in 13 century monks robes,
>and they like to get right up in your face when they talk to ya,
>always making a commotion by banging their weird, medical
>equipment around...  They eat all the hotdogs and apple pie, and
>then they "take off."  Ring any bells?  Next thing you know
>they'll be screwin our womin and takin our paychecks...snort,
>grunt, slobber....  They just ain't our kind, doc.  Lucky for
>guys like you and me though, eh?  We'll keep America pure...
>Let 'em go live in Canada.

You know....half-joking, half-seriously, I'd like to point out
that white Americans aren't the only one who've shown some
"concern" about immigration. I was joking with John Velez the
other day, and suggested that Hispanics might resent the new
wave of Asians, who are doing so well economically. But come to
think of it, that's not entirely a joke, because there _have_ in
fact been tensions between Asians and African-Americans
(especially when Koreans run thriving markets in black
neighborhoods).

Further joking with John, I suggested that a Puerto Rican like
him would resent the newer group of immigrants from the
Dominican Republic, who tend to be lower on the social scale. He
laughed, but said that he _does_ know Puerto Ricans who are
outright bigots against Domincans.

So there's yet another glitch with the "white fear" theory of
abductions. Even assuming fear of immigrants had something to do
with abduction reports, it's not clear that whites would feel
that fear more than other groups. They're just more famous for
it.

(African-Americans, by the way, have problems within their own
group. Darker skin has historically been devalued, as has really
coiled, "nappy" hair. There might be tension as well between
American blacks and those from the Caribbean. And if dark skin
and "nappy" hair have, historically, been looked down on in
black communties....why don't blacks with really dark skin and
nappy hair generate endless abduction reports? It makes so much
sense, doesn't it? The abductors, after all, are light-skinned
and hairless.....)

Greg





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   Dec > Dec 3

                      Re: http://www.thewordistruth.org

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 16:19:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 21:53:52 -0500
Subject: Re: http://www.thewordistruth.org

Okay, I went back to the referenced web site to find the reference
to the control panels for the craft alleged to have crashed at
Roswell.  The site reference is:

http://www.thewordistruth.org/img/uploads/09.pdf

On page 00020131 near the bottom is text which reads:

"The panels removed from the craft resemble the ones taken from the
occupants, suggesting a symbionic relationship between operator and
the functions of the aerodyne's (saucer) operation.  A very
tentative working theory was expressed by the scientific members of
the inspection team that the pilot-aerodyne interaction may occur
via electronic, nonword symbols percieved (sic) through the tactile
manipulation of the fingers, feeding impulses to the brain and visa
(sic) versa."

Now, compare this to part of the Santilli Cameraman's statement:

"It was decided to wait until the heat subsided before moving in as
fire was a significant risk, this was made all the worse by the
screams of the Freak creatures that were lying by the vehicle. What
in gods name they were no one could tell but one things for sure
they were Circus Freaks, creatures with no business here. Each had
hold of a box which they kept hold of in both arms close to their
chests. They just lay there crying, holding those boxes.

Once my tent had been set up I started filming immediately, first
the vehicle, then the site and debris, At around 06.00 it was deemed
safe to move in, again the freaks were still crying and when
approached screamed even louder. They were protective of their boxes
but we managed to get one lose with a firm strike at the head of a
Freak with the butt of a rifle."

Coordinated hoaxes?  Common source?  Most bizarre!

Terry






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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:35:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 21:59:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com>
>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:19:24 -0500


>Ths is an absolutely terrific posting, and vintage Sandow.  Thank's,
>Greg,  for three years of some of the best reading on the list.  One
>thing that always impresses me is your graciousness and your sincere
>effort to place an opposing argument in the best possible light
>before you gently tear it to shreds.  <g>(You never attack the
>person...although you may do one nightmare of a job on their
>hypothesis.)  Your postings are wonderfully entertaining, (sorry, I
>didn't mean to trivialize your work), they're _civil_, and I always
>learn one hell of a lot from them.  Again, thank's, Greg.

I feel like blushing and shuffling my feet. But instead I'd like
to thank Bill, and thank John Rimmer, too, for his very
thoughtful recent post, in which he summarized quite cogently
the main points of the psychosocial hypothesis. I'll respond to
it later -- there are things in it well worth debating -- but
its reasonable tone was something the world could use more of.

Greg Sandow





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   Dec > Dec 3

                         Abductee Not Paralyzed....

From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:01:37 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:02:37 -0500
Subject: Abductee Not Paralyzed....


>>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:11:46 -0600
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....

>>No, I don't have any medical records.  The man would not allow
>>me to dig into his medical history...

>>He told me he was examined by the Vetrans Administration
>>Hospital Doctors, and he was afraid I would cause him to loose
>>his Military Pension if I got to asking to many questions and
>>requesting copies of his tests from the doctors.

>>How to you argue with a person you are interviewing when you are
>>talking about his money???


Is the 'fear of possible loss of pension' reason that UFO
researchers often run into enough to stop the UFO community?

I'll chip in 100$ a year to a pool that will pay the pensions of
these folks if they somehow get mysteriously revoked improperly
after giving us UFO related information, and I suspect that
enough others would do so as well.  I say this in all
seriousness.

UFO organizations could help here.

A credible, non-ripoff fund that would step up and do this would
have my support.  Complicated perhaps, but worth it? With all
the people who claim to have info which is simply incredible,
but which they can't tell us because of threat of (improper)
pension loss, I'd think so.

Best,
Tim Brigham

)+(
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."
)+(






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   Dec > Dec 3

                              Re: The Challenge

From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:19:52 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:05:30 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: The Challenge
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 02:11:42 -0500


>>From: Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: The Challenge
>>Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:17:50 -0600

<snip>

>As perhaps you know, there have been a number of attempts to
>record abductions in progress. Some have been written about,
>others not. I have no idea how many there've been in all. The
>most thorough description is in a book called "Connections," by
>two abductees who call themselves Beth and Anna. This, I might
>add, is one of the very best abduction books ever written, not
>from a scientific point of view, but as a personal account of
>what it feels like to be an abductee, and what kind of things
>happen (or allegedly happen) to you. Though it doesn't seem to
>be very well known, I'd consider it essential reading.


This one doesn't ring a bell, but I will be sure to look for it.

>Abductees with video cameras have thought of using the cameras
>to either record abductions or discourage them. It never works.
>David Jacobs told me once about something strange allegedly
>showing up on one tape. This wasn't an abduction, but instead a
>shot of the abductee walking toward the camera and reaching out
>to turn it off, followed immediately by shots of the abductee
>back in bed, something that would be impossible to put on
>videotape if, as alleged, the abductee was the only person in
>the house. The abductee reported an abduction experience that
>night.


Although obviously not the end all "proof" some would be looking
for, this would be much better than nothing, and _extremely_
_interesting_ if it was acquired using some sort of controlled
methods.  I personally don't expect to catch a picture of an
alien carrying someone to a ship visable through a window above
the bed, but gaps or interference in tape, mysterious
_documented_ camera screw ups, etc, especially if the abductee
had a memory of an odd event occuring during that period and was
unable to view the tape before reporting it (lock the tape in
the camera in some fashion) would be extremely interesting.
Hell, reports of remembered events with _nothing_ odd on the
tape to back it up would also be worth the effort, IMO.

>Hiding the camera wouldn't do much good with aliens who,
>supposedly, can read our minds. They'd know the camera was
>there. Possibly they could also know about and disable any
>technology we'd set up to catch them.


Yes, but gaps or interference in the tape or blackouts in the
technology corelated with memories of some sort of unusual
event, again, if acquired under some sort of controlled manner,
would be more than we have currently.  If something unusual is
remembered, either the tape will be intact and show nothing, or
some sort of mechanical, unexplained screwup could be correlated
with it.  Alternatively, nothing might be recalled at all during
nights the tape/observation is going.  just another possible
problem to plan for.

<snip>

>Unfortunately, there are two problems in doing this. One is
>money. Who's going to fund an extensive program of monitoring
>and testing? Who's going to supply the equipment, and the
>scientific thinking that would tell us how to set it up? I can
>imagine a team being required, since it's not obvious which
>technical specialties would be needed. To some extent, we'd be
>delving into unknown areas. We just don't know what kind of
>magnetic, electric, or other traces these alleged abduction
>aliens might leave.


So much time and money have been spent analyzing various hokey
videos, stories and documents, I find it unbelievable that a few
used video cameras and some grunt work haven't been used in
abduction cases. Sure, these are amateurish methods using simple
tools. the more money and more hi-tech equipment the better, but
anything is better than nothing.

As for the scientific know-how: this should be even easier to
get ahold of than the money.  Some steps would be simple common
sense (ie, the "abductee" shouldn't be able to review the tape
until after reporting any mysterious events, or the lack of,
that occurred on that evening), and anyone with a background in
any type of controlled scientific/experimental methods could
help plan the project.  Such a project could start with a small
volunteer team, and grow to include more specific and
complicated measurement methods and specialists.

>And the second problem is finding abductees who'd submit their
>lives to all of this. Realistically, most abductees aren't
>interested in being experimental guinea pigs. (In fact, many of
>them already think they've played that role, but for the aliens.
>They feel they've had enough of it.) I'm sure, though, that a
>few abductees would volunteer. Whether they'd keep volunteering
>for the many months a program like this would require is another
>story.


Completely understandable, but I have to think that a few would,
if it meant finding some sort of proof that would make their
stories more accepted by middle of the road, objectively minded
folks.

Also worth considering is the fact that there are numerous
"abductees" who have taken to the lecture and book signing
circuits (btw, these folks, _in general_, carry less credibility
with me, personally, than the type who don't actively seek
publicicty, which brings up another problem- how would we select
members of the "sample"?).  I have to believe that it wouldn't
be all that difficult to find a group of people who would be
willing to undergo a period of semi-intrusive monitoring.  If
done correctly, simple methods could provide extremely valuable
data.

>There are other kinds of physical evidence we might look for.
>I'd like, for instance, to see thorough medical exams of a large
>sampling of abductees, in an effort to find out if there are
>medical facts that set abductees apart from the general
>population. (Thanks to David Pritchard for that suggestion.)

>Secondly, I'd like much more study of the marks that abductees
>say appear on them. Can we verify that these marks do appear,
>and that they really are anomalous? Ideally we'd have a good
>sampling of abductees examined each evening and each morning by
>paramedics, who could certify that marks did (or didn't) appear
>overnight, as abductees claim.

>Finally (though I think this list could, and should, be a lot
>longer) I'd like to see medical documentation of other things
>that abductees claim. I wrote about this in my posts to Michael
>Christol. Abductees say things were done to their bodies, and
>that doctors, on examining them, have expressed astonishment.
>But we never hear from the doctors. I can imagine all sorts of
>difficulties in getting doctors to go on the record with things
>they can't explain, but somewhere there's got to be a doctor
>who'll do that .Likewise for the famous missing fetuses. If
>pregnancies really are arising and disappearing without
>explanation, somewhere there's got to be a physician who'll talk
>about that.


Very true, I certainly don;t think my brief thoughts on the
camera technique are the "be all and end all" of methods to find
physical evidence, but brainstorming and implementing some
controlled experiments and data gathering methods is certainly
called for.  there are plenty of possible problems to plan for,
and probably many better methods than the ones I suggested.  A
brainstorm and debate between objective pro abduction folks, and
the skeptics, etc, seems in order. where are they?  Off
analyzing the letter in Gen. Ramey's hand in the roswell photo,
hoping to find a certified, official letter which tells us all
the answers?

Best,
Tim Brigham

)+(
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."
)+(





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   Dec > Dec 3

                              Re: The Challenge

From: John <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 17:15:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:08:15 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: The Challenge
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 02:11:42 -0500


>>From: Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: The Challenge
>>Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:17:50 -0600

>>An open letter/rant to "abductionologists."

><snip>

>>To the Hopkin-esque and Jacob-ian folks on the list, I ask:

First, I'd like to say that although I work for the Intruders
Foundation I do not consider my self a "follower" (in any sense)
and that we are not a 'cult.' As suggested by your use of such
catch phrases as "Hopkin-esque and Jacob-ian folks." What is
that anyway? Someone who believes them or someone who "follows/
worships" them? I resent the tone and the implications of such
flip remarks/references.

>>__Can we be expected to rationally discuss the abduction
>>phenomenon as if it involves hundreds, thousands, or millions of
>>people being physically abducted by non-human beings when we
>>have no proof that any, much less the majority, of these
>>experiences are physically real?__

>A perfectly reasonable question.

>>"With all the talk about the countless acts of abductions of
>>humans performed by so-called alien beings, isn't it about time
>>to begin searching for physical evidence to support these
>>claims?

<snip>

>Tim, I'm grateful for your suggestion, and for your impassioned,
>reasonable tone.


Hi Greg, hi All,

Greg wrote:

>Abductees say things were done to their bodies, and
>that doctors, on examining them, have expressed astonishment.

This very thing happened to me as recently as 1996. I went to an
emergency room (then, Booth Memorial Hospital, now known as, New
York Hospital) because I was having severe abdominal pain
(highly localized in the lower right quadrant) and I suspected
that I maybe having an appendicitis attack or possibly passing a
stone.

Neither one was found. But something odd happened while I was
there. After the preliminary examination the doctor ordered
x-rays of my abdomen and chest. I was laying on a gurney waiting
for results when the physician returned clutching my x-rays and
asked me if I had ever had abdominal surgery. To which I
replied, "no," (which is true.)

She repeated the question again and proceeded to very
unceremoniously lift my paper gown up and check my abdomen. When
I inquired what she was looking for the doctor responded,
"scars." She didn't believe me! She was looking for surgical
scars!

She was reacting to something she saw on the x-rays. Her obvious
conclusion was that I had had surgery and she came to me to
confirm it.

I have called the hospital in question and requested copies of
my x-rays. They are in a storage facility and have to be
retrieved before I can get them. I will submit them to -any-
qualified physician/internist/ radiologist who wishes to check
them for anomolies. (If any)

I have never been afraid to be tested or examined in any way
(short of cutting me) in the name of producing some physical
evidence of these alien interventions. I offered the producers
of NOVA and others along the way the oportunity to examine me.
It has never been done. I don't have the money to pay for it
myself or I would. I have already had myself evaluated and
tested psychologically (which I am glad to say showed no signs
of mental illness or instability.) I'm a perfectly healthy
neurotic like everybody else!

I'll take the tests, I just can't pay for em as well.

Then there is the question of -what- will be accepted as
"proof." If people are going to move the goalpost further
downrange everytime something comes up then it's all a waste of
time. I'll help anyone doing -serious- research into this, but I
won't waste my time with closed minded nimrods who already have
their minds made up. BEEN FOOLED MORE THAN ONCE. BEEN DERE, DONE
DAT!

Yeah, I believe it's real. But then I'm the guy that ran into a
UFO at close range (45 TO 60") while walking home (wide awake
and sober) and had a -whole night- of missing time to explain to
myself. That and the swollen eye and nosebleed the next morning
that landed me in an emergency room. Oh, and the marks and scars
and reports from my wife and children over the last 30 years.
Oh, and the lifetime of clear and conscious memories that I have
carried around in my head since early childhood. It's not only
real and physical, but if folks don't get on the stick and
really start investigating our accounts it's going to jump up
and bite you right on your incredulous ass one day. But then
it'll be too late. It may be too late already. I suspect it is.
But cool, let's do it. I'm telling the truth, I have -nothing-
to lose or to hide.

But then, that's just me.

I'll do it, but it better not be more nonsense offers that never
materialize. I am willing to put -myself- up.

You asked for it, you got it. Now -you- put up or shut up. I'll
get the film, you get the doctor.

Sincerely,

John Velez, Abductee

________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________





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                  Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:32:20 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:11:29 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia


>From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:53:48 +0800

>>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 01:45:25 -0800
>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: UFO Sighting over Brisbane, Australia

>>However, all we got was Tony Tinnis' statement that:

>>"(He) is a Christian and does not believe in UFOs."

>>That sounds an awful lot like one precludes the other, or did at
>>one time, for Tony Tinnis at least.

>>Maybe I was wrong.

>Perhaps you should have said "If _a_ Christian can make such
>dumb statements..." instead of  "If Christians can..."

>Cheers with Patience and tolerance for the new millenium...

>Sharon K

I must agree. My wording was too general. It is probably only a
smallish minority of Christians, fundamentalists perhaps, that
would use their beliefs to deny intelligent life elsewhere.

Best wishes

-  Larry Hatch






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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:41:10 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:15:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 16:01:57 PST

>The problem with the PSH, aside from its failings when it comes
>to the hardcore UFO evidence (in good part though not entirely
>in the CE2 category),

As I have pointed out before PSH and ETH are discussing two
entirely different topics. The PSH would not be invalidated even
if some UFO events *were* extraterrestrial craft.

> is that it is wholly unfalsifiable.  It
>substitutes literary criticism for science, as its critics,
>prominently among them me (and I was once an advocate), have
>pointed out again and again.  It's an approach to ufology best
>suited to librarians and English majors.

I notice you snipped the little bit where I asked if *you*
actually thought that abductions were the result of
"intervention by off-planet forces". I think this is the third
time you've dodged that question.

>A "significant concern," huh?  What's your evidence?  As
>somebody who lives here every day of his life, I see no evidence
>of such a "significant concern," which is why it is dangerous to
>draw your conclusions from a distance, where you get your
>impressions from reading

>>American magazines, see[ing] American TV documentaries, and
>>indeed some of us even visit America, and it is clear that this
>>is an important issue.

>No, it ain't.  It's fodder for cable TV shows pandering to a
>fringe audience, and that's about it.  Otherwise, it gets
>treated in the occasional cartoon, the occasional passing
>reference by a stand-up comedian, the occasional paper (usually
>not well informed) in a social or psychological journal.  You
>cannot expect me to take any argument you make seriously if you
>insist that there is anything like an abduction panic, concern,
>or whatever word you're employing currently.  It just isn't
>there, and you'd know that if you knew a whole lot more about
>this country than you do.

I'm actually talking about issues of race and immigration being a major
concern, not abductions. I wonder if you have misunderstood me, or are
you saying that these important topics are only discussed by fringe
cable shows and stand-up comics? If so, thank God for British television
where serious topics get serious attention!

>Though I don't live in northern Minnesota, I do happen to
>reside  in southwestern Minnesota.  On a daily basis I speak
>with the people who live in my town.  I do not recall a single
>conversation in which panic, concern, or whatever concerning
>immigration entered the discussion.  I've heard a variety of
>ignorant, bigoted, or thoughtless opinions expressed on larger
>social and national issues, but I've never heard anybody go
>on about the menace posed by immigration.

>I can't speak your experience in Britain any more than you
>can speak to mine in America.

We are certainly two peoples divided by a common language, as
dear old Oscar said (English major's joke).

>It's amazing.  Greg Sandow and I have both addressed this
>ridiculous allegation.  Neither of us is unaware of, or
>insensitive to, racial problems and images in our society, and
>this certainly went past us.  It seems to have gone by just
>about everybody, including Jacobs, who when he's not a ufologist
>is a professor of American Studies.

>It also went past by fiance, who has little interest in UFOs but
>is something of an authority (and a published one) on race,
>ethnicity, and literature.  She happened to read The Threat and
>had some interesting observations to make.  These American
>racial threads you found so easily completely escaped her, too.
>Could it be -- perish the heresy -- that they're not there,
>except in your own mind?

If you think that a book claiming that large numbers of "aliens" are
flooding into the US (and elsewhere) and forcibly impregnating women
from the host population to produce a generation of mixed-race hybrids
has no overtones of traditional racist fears you have rather less
imagination than I thought.
>
>>It is ludicrous to suggest that just because a Hispanic family
>>moves in down the street that the neighbours are all going to be
>>thrown into a panic and rush off and have abduction experiences.
>
>I'm glad that we can agree on that much.
>
>>But when someone _does_ have an abduction experience, whether
>>that be triggered by sleep paralysis or some other psychological
>>trigger, the structure and imagery of the events, the "story" if
>>you like, is going to be shaped by the individuals own
>>experiences and the sociolocical conditions in which they live.
>>In America, and also in Britain, one of those conditions is an
>>ongoing concern about personal and collective identity - not the
>>only one, and I think personal identity is a greater factor than
>>collective identity in most cases - some of which is expressed
>>in racial (not necessarily racist) terms.
>
>This assertion is so broad and sweeping as to be functionally
>meaningless.  Who living and breathing anywhere on earth does
>not have some sort of "ongoing concern about personal and
>collective identity"?

Absolutely no-one, that's the whole point.

>In any event, it has to be demonstrated,
>as it has not been except by verbiage, that this "ongoing
>concern" has anything to do with people's vivid experience of
>abduction by alien beings.


>If you are saying that data are more important in hypothesis-
>formation than imaginative rhetorical leaps between, say, A and
>Q, I agree.  If someone wanted to conduct such a study, fine.
>The evidence available to date does not lead me to believe we're
>going to learn there is a racial dimension to abduction
>experiences, and I can think of other approaches that strike me
>as more likely to tell us something we don't already know, but
>what the hell.  If somebody wants to do it, more power to him or
>her.

No, it's perfectly falsifiable. If black and white people have
proportionately the same number of abductions and their
abduction narratives are similar it would suggest that race is
not a factor in the structuring of the abduction experience -
although it would not rule out other factors. I say that the
earlier cases would be more indicative because these would be
less influenced by recent mass media coverage of the
'standardised' Greys, *a la* Hopkins and so forth. >

--
John Rimmer. Magonia Magazine and Literary Review
www.magonia.demon.co.uk





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                  Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 17:06:44 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:21:42 -0500
Subject: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:31:49 EST
>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: NEW MJ-12 Documents on the Internet!!!

>Stunning Top Secret Military Documents Published On Internet
>Revealing Recovery Of Extraterrestrial Vehicles And Bodies
>During Truman Administration

<snip>

>Documents have been released as part of a larger book titled
>"The Truth", available at www.TheWordIsTruth.org, placing the
>events in context and providing summary of two-year
>authentication effort.

This same announcement is posted on Jeff Rense's Sightings page
(http://www.sightings.com/) under the link titled "Truman Era
UFO/ET Recovery Said Confirmed by Top Secret Documents".

I've taken a quick look at some of these, and they are not the
old MJ-12 documents - they are a totally different set.  I'm
surprised there's been no comment from this list on them,
especially from grizzled MJ-12 debate veterans.  If one accepts
these documents uncritically (fat chance here!), this is pretty
amazing stuff.

My question is somewhat more mundane however:  is anyone on the
list familiar with Joseph P. Firmage or the International Space
Sciences Organization?  Is this a valid outfit, or some shadowy
front for another disinformation campaign?  As indicated by
their publication of their address and phone number, they don't
seem to be playing hard-to-find.

Waiting for the volcano to erupt ... one way or another ...

-Brian Cuthbertson





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                   Re: An Historic Report On Life In Space

From: Sean Jones <Tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:21:45 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:28:38 -0500
Subject: Re: An Historic Report On Life In Space


>From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto

Hi Errol

Thanks for this very interesting article that took me a little time to
read through properly.

> An Historic Report On Life In Space: Tesla, Marconi, Todd

<snip>

>                                     by

>                      C. D. Jackson and R. E. Hohmann
>                     International Business Machines Corp.
>                             Kingston, New York


<snip>

>It was during the tests conducted in Colorado in 1899 that Tesla
>detected the phenomenon which he described as an interplanetary
>communication.  Speaking of the data that, unexpectedly, had
>registered on his instruments Tesla said that the signals took
>place "...  periodically, and with such a clear suggestion of
>number and order that they were not traceable to any cause then
>known to me.  I was familiar ...  with such electrical
>disturbances as are produced by the sun, Aurora Borealis and
>earth currents, and I was as sure as I could be of any fact that
>these variations were due to none of these causes.  The nature
>of my experiments precluded the possibility of the changes being
>produced by atmospheric disturbances ....  Although I could not
>decipher their meaning, it was impossible for me to think of
>them as having been entirely accidental ... a purpose was behind
>these signals8 ...they are the results of an attempt by some
>human beings, not of our world, to speak to us by signals ..  I
>am absolutely certain that they are not caused by anything
>terrestrial."9

<snip>

As I read this this a few thoughts crossed my mind and I was
just wondering if it occurred to any one else.

As I read about Tesla and his work but one thing did strike me
as odd. Did he ever stop to consider exactly what he was doing?
The reason I say this is :- The primordial scream.

As a very primitive lifeform crawls out of the primordial soup
that used to be our oceans many eons ago and as he realises that
he is in a much rather larger world than he first thought he
shouts out to announce to the new world that he is here. Now
this strikes me as odd for two reason. One) There are predators
out there who would consider this new animal a delicacy, a tasty
morsel. Two)  does he really want to announce to the new world
that he is here until he knows what he is letting himself in
for??

I consider this broadcast of Tesla's in the same context, do we
really want to advertise that we are here just crawled fresh out
of the swamp? There may well be some extremely caring beings out
there who will take us in hand and teach us the ways of the
universe whilst there are just as likely to be others who will
see this primitive planet ripe for the picking.

Am I the only one that thought this?

Also

Some have suggested that there simply has got to be life out
there but due to the distances invloved interstellar travel is
impossible. But by the means demonstrated by Tesla we can at
least communicate in a basic fashion. Could this also be a way
to communicate with the space ships that take voyages decades
long to visit the nearby star systems? I can't remember when but
a while back I read about interstellar communication being
carried out by radio waves that where miles high in modulation.
The reason for this was simple, the more vast the distance the
more likely the signal would suffer degradation and thus by
using a huge modulation any degradation would only be to a part
of it thus a majority of the signal would "get through". could
Tesla's test be a way of generating this vast signal?

Just a few thoughts that drifted through this tired old grey
matter after reading this interesting article posted by the
esteemed Errol :-)

---
    In an infinite universe inifinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
         Research page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/





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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Peter Brookesmith - Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:11:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:32:13 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza:


>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:27:19 -0500
>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>Did we know about retro-virii in 1952?

No. The mechanism of retroviruses was first discovered by Howard
Temin. He began work on the problem in 1960, and presented his
findings to a virology conference at Duke U. in 1964. No one
took any notice because the dogma at the time was that DNA *had*
to precede RNA in the reproductive process. (Retroviruses have
an RNA core and use a reverse transcriptase enzyme to construct
DNA, which then generates more RNA.)

David Baltimore at MIT independently replicated Temin's work,
and they published a joint article in "Nature" (27 June 1970)
describing their discoveries. It was only *after* this that the
term "retrovirus" came into circulation. They didn't coin the
term in the "Nature" piece. They did win the Nobel prize for
their efforts. (This shows how closed-minded scientists are, of
course, by the way.)

So I guess we should now expect some card-carrying conspiracy
theorist to explain how the gubmint knew about it all along but
had to keep it under wraps, blah, blah. And in due course we'll
probably hear how AIDS was back-engineered from alien body
fluids... or strawberry icecream leavings...
Praise the Lord and pass the needle, eh girls?

best wishes
Polymerase D. Mercksharpendome
Antibody Politic







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                              Re: 'Phone Noise'

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 21:34:52 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:36:21 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'


>From: Diane Lovett <rambld@erols.com>
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:56:18 -0500
>Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:36:14 -0500
>Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'

Previously, Diane offered:

>I have had this type of noise, static, beeps, etc., on phone
>lines for many years now, when discussing ET and abduction
>topics with other abductees, researchers, etc.

>It has over the years effectively ended many such conversations.

>I have also heard many other abductees complain of the same
>problem, and it in general it is accepted as being "them"
>listening in and interfering when discussions are getting too
>close for comfort so to speak.

>Personally I have found it happens most often whenever any phone
>conversation is about shared sighting or abduction events, as
>though we are not allowed to compare notes. I know it sounds
>like the x-files, but I do think you will find it happens a lot.

Ted Viens, another list participant, and I are often interrupted
on the phone by strange clicking sounds. In the past we have
always joked about it being the CIA or IRS or some government
group listening in.

Now, it would seem, we have something else to worry about! Gads!

Seriously, considering how new the Internet is (relative to UFO
abductions) I wonder if "they" also monitor E-mail and would try
to interfere? An interesting test would be a simultaneous oral
conversation on the phone and typed conversation via E-mail or
live discussion chat room on the Internet.

If "they" are really determined to stop the conversation, "they"
would certainly have their hands full. In addition, such a test
might determine if the interference was deliberate or just an
anomoly. Obviously, you'd need two phone lines.

Just a thought...

Later,





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                      Re: http://www.thewordistruth.org

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 21:47:13 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:38:02 -0500
Subject: Re: http://www.thewordistruth.org

Two interesting bits of information:

The first:

        <><><><><><><><>

THEWORDISTRUTH.ORG
is already registered

Registrant:
USWeb Corporation (THEWORDISTRUTH-DOM)
2880 Lakeside Drive, Suite 300
Santa Clara, CA 95054
US

Domain Name: THEWORDISTRUTH.ORG

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
   USWeb Network Operations  (UNO2-ORG)  hostmaster@USWEB.COM
   408-987-3200
                          Fax- 408-987-3230
Billing Contact:
   Payable, Accounts  (AP4745)  hostmaster@USWEB.COM
   (408) 987-3200 (FAX) (408) 987-3230

Record last updated on 24-Sep-98.
Record created on 24-Sep-98.
Database last updated on 3-Dec-98 12:35:08 EST.

Domain servers in listed order:

NS1.USWEBHOSTING.COM         209.143.225.3
NS2.USWEBHOSTING.COM         207.240.85.127

        <><><><><><><><><><>

And:

        <><><><><><><><><><>


THEWORDISTRUTH.COM
is already registered

Registrant:
thewordistruth.com (THEWORDISTRUTH2-DOM)
222 RR3
Rachel, NV 89001
US

Domain Name: THEWORDISTRUTH.COM

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
   Cleary, Ian  (IC913)  ian_cleary@SMALLMERCHANT.COM
   702-436-2234
Billing Contact:
   Cleary, Ian  (IC913)  ian_cleary@SMALLMERCHANT.COM
   702-436-2234

Record last updated on 02-Nov-98.
Record created on 02-Nov-98.
Database last updated on 3-Dec-98 12:35:08 EST.

Domain servers in listed order:

NS.SMALLMERCHANT.COM         209.31.44.163
NS3.SMALLMERCHANT.COM        209.31.44.162

        <><><><><><><><><><>

Looks like someone in Rachel is prepared to take advantage of the
situation.  Remember "whitehouse.com"? <g>

Terry





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                Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:52:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:45:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc

:
:


>From: Moderator, UFO UpDates
>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 19:34:53 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates Subscribers
>Subject: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc

>There's been some fairly intense "these documents aren't new!"
>discussion scudding across the Net.

>One of the longer 'new' files is below. Thanks to Joseph P. Firmage
>and Bob Woods & Son for making it and others available at:

>www.TheWordIsTruth.org

<snip>

EBK it is _Wood_ not 'Woods'.

STF

[Thanks, Stan. Won't make _that_ one again <G> --ebk]





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              -=[For The Record]=- C-E: Roswell Archaeologists

From: Francis Ridge <slk@EVANSVILLE.NET>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:01:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:52:47 -0500
Subject: -=[For The Record]=- C-E: Roswell Archaeologists

Here's the updated paper on the long-sought archaeologists near
Roswell:

http://www.evansville.net/~slk/archeo.htm

Fran


Support AND USE the research web sites by sending $1 a month to:
Sites
618 Davis Drive
Mt. Vernon, IN  47620
Main InterLink Site Directory:
http://www.evansville.net/~slk/InterLink.html





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                       Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 21:43:06 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:57:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....


>From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:01:37 -0600

>>>How to you argue with a person you are interviewing when you are
>>>talking about his money???

>Is the 'fear of possible loss of pension' reason that UFO
>researchers often run into enough to stop the UFO community?

I think the loss of Pensions, Insurance, and other benefits
which many of the retired military people stand to loose, is a
good reason, in their minds not to say to much.  Since I am not
in their shoes, I cannot challenge their resolve. <g>

>I'll chip in 100$ a year to a pool that will pay the pensions of
>these folks if they somehow get mysteriously revoked improperly
>after giving us UFO related information, and I suspect that
>enough others would do so as well.  I say this in all
>seriousness.

I believe you Tim.  In fact, I have had this type of
conversation with others...that of establishing a fund to help
research... However, what starts out as a 'donation' eventually
becomes a 'millstone'.

Not every good intention is capable of being followed through
with...most people are good for the short term...but in the long
term, their finances change and sometimes fail them.

>UFO organizations could help here.

Yes ,they could.  Unfortunately, in todays financial climate,
even they are having problems making enough money to follow up
on their investigations the way they would like. Financially, we
live in precarious times. <smile>

>A credible, non-ripoff fund that would step up and do this would
>have my support.  Complicated perhaps, but worth it? With all
>the people who claim to have info which is simply incredible,
>but which they can't tell us because of threat of (improper)
>pension loss, I'd think so.

>Best,
>Tim Brigham

Yes, I agree. I also, would be willing to support such a fund,
for as long as I am financially able to do so...

Thanks for the reply.

REgards, Mike


ICQ#:7508455.
(502) 683-6811






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                   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images

From: Scott Krause <SKrause272@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:39:12 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:05:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images


>Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 07:00:58 -0500 (EST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images


>Unfortunately, most of the best people in this field would be
>hostile to involvement with anything related to UFOs.  So it may
>be difficult to get anyone who really knows anything involved.

<snip>

I agree with your statement that the best people in the field
would be hostile to getting involved with this as a UFO
incident.  I think it would also be best if the person doing the
study was not related to the field anyway.....don't you? :)

Scott





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:08:58 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:02:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


[This thread is wandering dangerously off-topic folks -
 reel it in, please.--ebk]

Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:41:10 +0000
>Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:15:36 -0500
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

Previously, Mr. Rimmer had written:

>I'm actually talking about issues of race and immigration being a
>major concern, not abductions. I wonder if you have misunderstood
>me, or are you saying that these important topics are only discussed
>by fringe cable shows and stand-up comics? If so, thank God for
>British television where serious topics get serious attention!

There are only two words I agree with in the above statement:

"Get serious".

I think you might be confusing the issues of "race" and "race
relations" as well as confusing "immigration" with "illegal
aliens" or "undocumented workers".

As Jerome Clark has pointed out, the topics of race and
immigration are not at the forefront of concern in this country.
This isn't a matter of personal perception. It just isn't there,
regardless of what the BBC says on one of its programs. So my
advice is to drop this nonsense about something that you
obviously know nothing about.

On the other hand, if you are talking about "race relations",
then that is something that is of passing concern. However, I
hardly think you'll find that unique to America, or any other
country, regardless of their perceived abduction rate.

More significant would be the issue (if it is one) of "illegal
aliens". However, this is more of a political problem than a
social one. Why? Because most people only object to the idea of
illegal aliens based on principle. The actual existence of
illegal aliens and undocumented workers in this country has
become part of the social fabric. Much of the economy depends on
these people to do jobs that many Americans would never do. It's
not something that people like to talk about, but it's true.

Regarding "immigration"; just what kind of problem do you think
we have? Outside of Native American Indians, America is
populated by nothing BUT immigrants. It's how our country was
founded. The mix is deep and there's much texture in our
population.

You Brits may think we're a bit "off", but we know exactly where
our heritage comes from. For us to have a problem with
immigration would be the height of hypocracy.

I suggest you recheck your sources.

Later,
Roger Evans





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                  Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:24:00 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:04:51 -0500
Subject: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

Hello, list...

Well, I'd love to give my input and opinion about the New MJ-12
Documents....But I can't get into the damn website!

Actually, I CAN. But I've been bumped off 6 times in a row and
it's getting to be a REAL drag.

I swear I've only been able to stay online for about 30 seconds
before it throws me off and my Internet connection
crashes...again and again.

It only happens with that particular website.

Has anyone else had this problem? Just wondering...


Feeling a little testy in Houston,
Roger Evans





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                              Re: The Challenge

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:06:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:11:00 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Challenge
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:13:34 -0500


>Kudos to you both (as well as other participants) for a
>civilized and interesting debate.  If ufology would approach all
>its conundrums with the same good will, we might get a lot
>further.


Thanks, Brian.

>On a final and personal note (and, as someone with a fairly
>conventional scientific background) this is difficult fo me to
>write), although I have followed the UFO phenomenon for many
>years, I do not discuss it with my family, nor do I have books
>strewn around the house.  It therefore sent a shiver down my
>spine when my five year old son came into our room two nights
>ago and said that he was getting tired of little people with big
>back eyes standing around his bed every night.


A shiver indeed....it sent a shiver down my own spine when I
read this.

So, Brian....would it make you feel better or worse to know that
you're hardly the only parent to have this experience? You're
not. This part of the abduction phenomenon isn't discussed very
much, but there are many reports of kids saying things like this
to their parents. "I don't like those little people. They take
me up to the sky." Things like that.

Of course they could have heard talk like that somewhere. Or so
many of us would like to reassure ourselves.

Greg Sandow





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                              Re: The Challenge

From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:31:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:19:23 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 17:15:37 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Challenge


>First, I'd like to say that although I work for the Intruders
>Foundation I do not consider my self a "follower" (in any sense)
>and that we are not a 'cult.' As suggested by your use of such
>catch phrases as "Hopkin-esque and Jacob-ian folks." What is
>that anyway? Someone who believes them or someone who "follows/
>worships" them? I resent the tone and the implications of such
>flip remarks/references.

John,

I'm sorry if you didn't like the tone of my remark.  It wasn't
with intent to be offensive, though perhaps slighlty humorous (a
sense of humor in ufology? egads!), so, while I'm not sorry for
saying it in the first place (I have in the past and will in the
future use flip remarks and references, again without intent to
personally offend anyone, but if I do...well as the saying goes,
"my words are meant to convery a message; you may interpret
another. this I cannot help") I am sorry if you, or anyone else,
took it the wrong way.  That said....

>This very thing happened to me as recently as 1996. I went to an
>emergency room (then, Booth Memorial Hospital, now known as, New
>York Hospital) because I was having severe abdominal pain
>(highly localized in the lower right quadrant) and I suspected
>that I maybe having an appendicitis attack or possibly passing a
>stone.

>Neither one was found. But something odd happened while I was
>there. After the preliminary examination the doctor ordered
>x-rays of my abdomen and chest. I was laying on a gurney waiting
>for results when the physician returned clutching my x-rays and
>asked me if I had ever had abdominal surgery. To which I
>replied, "no," (which is true.)

>She repeated the question again and proceeded to very
>unceremoniously lift my paper gown up and check my abdomen. When
>I inquired what she was looking for the doctor responded,
>"scars." She didn't believe me! She was looking for surgical
>scars!

>She was reacting to something she saw on the x-rays. Her obvious
>conclusion was that I had had surgery and she came to me to
>confirm it.

>I have called the hospital in question and requested copies of
>my x-rays. They are in a storage facility and have to be
>retrieved before I can get them. I will submit them to -any-
>qualified physician/internist/ radiologist who wishes to check
>them for anomolies. (If any)

>I have never been afraid to be tested or examined in any way
>(short of cutting me) in the name of producing some physical
>evidence of these alien interventions. I offered the producers
>of NOVA and others along the way the oportunity to examine me.
>It has never been done. I don't have the money to pay for it
>myself or I would. I have already had myself evaluated and
>tested psychologically (which I am glad to say showed no signs
>of mental illness or instability.) I'm a perfectly healthy
>neurotic like everybody else!

>I'll take the tests, I just can't pay for em as well.

Very interesting.  this seems to be the type of thing that
_should_ be followed up.  I'm glad to hear you'd be willing to
have further examination done, maybe something will come of this
thread that leads to making that possible, or someone on this
list will step up and help out.  Since you mention your
involvement with the Intruder Foundation, are they at all
interested in funding such exams, or dont they at least know of
anyone who is?

>Then there is the question of -what- will be accepted as
>"proof." If people are going to move the goalpost further
>downrange everytime something comes up then it's all a waste of
>time. I'll help anyone doing -serious- research into this, but I
>won't waste my time with closed minded nimrods who already have
>their minds made up. BEEN FOOLED MORE THAN ONCE. BEEN DERE, DONE
>DAT!


I understand your point completely, but as I think you can see
from my post and Greg's post (not wishing to speak for him
here), I have no interest in doing this to "show up" anyone, I'm
merely looking for evidence, or the lack of evidence of
encounters.  I have no desire to "move the goalpost," though
obviously we should set the goalpost up before the kick, so to
speak, so we'll know what we're looking for. I'm not the type
who enjoys going on TV and challenging telephone psychics to
tell me what's behind the curtain, just so I can watch them fail
and say "ah ha! another fraud proven!"  I'm more than willing to
examine any evidence in an objective manner.  While we all have
biases, I try to admit mine, and do my best to set them aside
and look at things objectively.


Best,
Tim Brigham





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                              Re: 'Phone Noise'

From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 01:26:20 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:25:26 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'


>From: Diane Lovett <rambld@erols.com>
>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: 'Phone Noise'
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:56:18 -0500

>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates Subscribers <UFO UpDates Subscribers>
>>Date: Wed, Dec 2, 98 4:07 PM
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: 'Phone Noise'

>EBK and List,

>I have had this type of noise, static, beeps, etc., on phone
>lines for many years now, when discussing ET and abduction
>topics with other abductees, researchers, etc.

>It has over the years effectively ended many such conversations.

>I have also heard many other abductees complain of the same
>problem, and it in general it is accepted as being "them"
>listening in and interfering when discussions are getting too
>close for comfort so to speak.

>Personally I have found it happens most often whenever any phone
>conversation is about shared sighting or abduction events, as
>though we are not allowed to compare notes. I know it sounds
>like the x-files, but I do think you will find it happens a lot.

>Diane


For whatever it's worth, I had a phone conversation with a man
from Vancouver, B.C. about two months ago. He called me looking
for someone who could help him with constant abduction
experiences he had had for some 30 years, the last being late in
1996 when he was on his way to Whistler's Mountain to pick up
his 17 year old daughter who was skiing there. He had always had
a certain feeling shortly before (several days to a week or so)
he was about to be visited.

While he was talking to me a loud static (sharp and spikey)
noise came on the receiver that was punctuated by a high pitched
whine. It became so intense as to be painful so I asked him to
hang up and call me back. He did so and our conversation
continued for another few minutes when the same thing occurred
again.

This is something I have never experienced before on the phone,
at least not like this. I've of course had static on the line,
but not noises so loud as to be painful.

I asked this man if he could hear it on his end. He said yes he
could but it was normal for him to hear this.

The reason this man contacted me was through a mag article he
had read that I had written. He was looking for someone he was
sure he had heard of on a local program and whom I discovered
was Mike Strainic. I gave him Mike's email.

I haven't heard of him since but have since been intrigued by
the event and was jarred loose by this latest thread. I should
mention that I've spent a lot of the last 35 years in sound,
rock music (really loud rock music) and more recently television
production and I've never come across anything like that before.
As I said, for what it's worth.






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                              Re: 'Phone Noise'

From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:38:40 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:29:38 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'


>>From: Diane Lovett <rambld@erols.com>
>>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:56:18 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:36:14 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'


<snip>

>>I have had this type of noise, static, beeps, etc., on phone
>>lines for many years now, when discussing ET and abduction
>>topics with other abductees, researchers, etc.

>>It has over the years effectively ended many such conversations.

>>I have also heard many other abductees complain of the same
>>problem, and it in general it is accepted as being "them"
>>listening in and interfering when discussions are getting too
>>close for comfort so to speak.


If 'they' wanted to do so, wouldn't they have the capabilites to
tap/monitor the line in such a way that you would never know it
(if we are talking about some CIA/NSA/black op type group)?  Or
maybe they're more interested in your reaction to the clicks you
hear, or as you say, just effectively ending your conversation?
Just a thought.

Tim

)+(
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."





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               Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:08:41 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:39:08 -0500
Subject: Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald


>Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 21:47:15 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald
>>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 16:31:09 PST

>Jerry,

>I can certainly understand your feelings toward Dr. Hynek as he
>was a personal friend.


<snip>

>I would like to bring to your attention the insulting and/or
>inflammatory words you used in your response to my posting by my
>listing them below.  List readers will have to judge for
>themselves the purpose that they serve.
>
>"just silly"
>"baseless paranoia"
>"this is garbage"
>"sinister agent"
>"sinister conspiracies"
>"imagined, reasons"
>"not just silly, it's downright hilarious"
>"fantastic and absurd grounds"
>"one of the dumbest postings I've ever seen"
>"wasted by exposure to this sort of paranoid delirium"
>"the dimensions of human folly and paranoia"
>
>Thanks for reminding me about overusing the word very, you will
>note that I have removed it from the ending paragraph.
>
>The UFO arena was, and is, akin to a minefield and if you don't
>have a good map of the terrain you are likely to get blown up --
>especially if you simply ignore the signs that say "Danger --
>Mine Field!"
>
>Gary

Well, Gary, you have made many valuable contributions on this
list and in Ufology in general, but I cannot agree that the
above words from Jerry are, in this case, any way insulting or
inflammatory.

They appear to reflect, from my limited UFO knowledge, an
accurate appraisal of your radical, off the wall, denounciation
of the widely and commonly known connections of Hynek.

Your many mentions of "swamp gas" betray an aura of paranoid
propaganda when you constantly avoid mentioning that, rather
than an academic deduction of the evidence at the end of his
stay, it was casual speculation given to a reporter as the weary
Hynek arrived.  That it was published the next morning and
tainted his stay caused him a lot of stress and lead to him
rethinking his position with the Air Force.

Bye...  Ted..







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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:14:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:42:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:54:21 -0500
>From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis@ccsi.com>
>To: UFOUpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFOUpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>For that matter, if anyone on the list is in contact with
>Hopkins, Strieber, Jacobs, Mack and others who are likely to
>have significant databases on UFO/abduction experiencers,
>please send them a message asking simply what percentage of
>their contacts is Black (and go ahead and ask for an across the
>board list of other ethnicities) so we can get some actual data
>on this real question that has been raised on this list.

I'm going to do this. I talk to Budd a lot and I'll ask him.

It strikes me, too, that there's one source of information we've
all been forgetting. It's that controversial Roper poll, the one
that supposedly showed that 2.5 to 5 percent of Americans could
be abductees.

I know that many people dismiss these results. The poll asked
about experiences that Budd Hopkins and David Jacobs thought
were indicators of abductions, things like strange lights in the
room with you at night, and periods of missing time. Critics of
the poll point out, with perfect truth, that nobody has ever
proved that people who have these experiences really are
abductees. The information goes the other way -- most abductees
have most of these experiences. But we don't know whether other
people have the experiences without also having abduction
memories.

Still, even with this caveat, it would be interesting to know
how answers to the poll sort out by race. Did as many black
people (by percentage) as white people say they'd had the
experiences?

I'll try to find out.

Greg Sandow





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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 01:54:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:46:39 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:11:16 -0500
>From: Peter Brookesmith - Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
>Subject: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza:

>>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:27:19 -0500
>>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>Did we know about retro-virii in 1952?

>No. The mechanism of retroviruses was first discovered by Howard
>Temin. He began work on the problem in 1960, and presented his
>findings to a virology conference at Duke U. in 1964. No one
>took any notice because the dogma at the time was that DNA *had*
>to precede RNA in the reproductive process. (Retroviruses have
>an RNA core and use a reverse transcriptase enzyme to construct
>DNA, which then generates more RNA.)

Hello Duke,

How the things come out with D. H.?

Quite a fancy statement for a theologist.

>So I guess we should now expect some card-carrying conspiracy
>theorist to explain how the gubmint knew about it all along but
>had to keep it under wraps, blah, blah. And in due course we'll
>probably hear how AIDS was back-engineered from alien body
>fluids... or strawberry icecream leavings...
>Praise the Lord and pass the needle, eh girls?

What differenciate those allegedly authentic documents - and BTW
nobody stated they were authentic - from forged documents - BTW,
I see nowhere on:

http://www.thewordistruth.org

that those documents were not forged.

The site is eerie:


"Login to The Truth

Welcome to The Truth,
a hypothesis of the unity of science,
faith, and history.

In exchange for the opportunity to read this free Internet
book, I ask for your e-mail address. It will not be used
for any commercial purpose."


They look like... undertakers.

I followed the links and, when I was asked for my email address,
I gave:

one@flewover.thecuckoos.nest

That brought me to the Truth.

God have mercy on us all... at least on me.






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                              Re: 'Phone Noise'

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:01:04 PST
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:53:53 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 21:34:52 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: 'Phone Noise'

>>From: Diane Lovett <rambld@erols.com>
>>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:56:18 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:36:14 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'

>Previously, Diane offered:

>>I have had this type of noise, static, beeps, etc., on phone
>>lines for many years now, when discussing ET and abduction
>>topics with other abductees, researchers, etc.

>>It has over the years effectively ended many such conversations.

<snip>

>Ted Viens, another list participant, and I are often interrupted
>on the phone by strange clicking sounds. In the past we have
>always joked about it being the CIA or IRS or some government
>group listening in.

>Now, it would seem, we have something else to worry about! Gads!

>Seriously, considering how new the Internet is (relative to UFO
>abductions) I wonder if "they" also monitor E-mail and would try
>to interfere? An interesting test would be a simultaneous oral
>conversation on the phone and typed conversation via E-mail or
>live discussion chat room on the Internet.

Roger,

Have you missed all the postings on _Echelon_? If so, do a
search and see what you missed on the monitoring of
communications.

Regards,
Leanne  ];-)





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                Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc

From: Jakes Louw <LOUWJE@telkom.co.za>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:00:07 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:05:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc


> UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> 12/04 2:34 AM
>From: Moderator, UFO UpDates

>      A superior form of colonizing will have to be conceived,
>that could be a kind of tutelage, possibly through the tacit
>approval of the United Nations. But would the United Nations
>legally have the right of allowing such tutelage over us in such
>a fashion?

Just a question to somebody who knows their history:

When was the UN formed? As far as I remember, the UN was created
from the concept of the League of Nations, but I can't remember
when....


Regards,


louwje@telkom.co.za





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                    Re: -=[For The Record]=- C-E: Roswell

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:40:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:12:48 -0500
Subject: Re: -=[For The Record]=- C-E: Roswell


>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:01:09 -0600
>From: Francis Ridge <slk@EVANSVILLE.NET>
>Subject: archaeologists
>To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

>Here's the updated paper on the long-sought archaeologists near
>Roswell:

>http://www.evansville.net/~slk/archeo.htm

>Fran

<snip>

K. Randle & List,

Kevin Randle writes about the archaeologists near Roswell.

Regarding an alleged 'simultaneous incident' near Roswell, Nick
Pope in his book 'Open Skies', on page 17, mentions two names
regarding this crash incident, namely:

-  Barney Barnett; a civil engineer, and,
-  Glenn Dennis; the local undertaker in Roswell

In addition, a group of archaeologists from the Univ. of
Pennsylvania were _possibly_ at the 'crash site'.

He also mentions 'four (4) child-sized' coffins'.

Is there possibly any info. on Glenn Dennis, the local
undertaker? And, was Barnett really a civil engineer?


Regards,
AWS






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                   Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:05:05 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:15:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images


>From: Scott Krause <SKrause272@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:39:12 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images

>>Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 07:00:58 -0500 (EST)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images

>>Unfortunately, most of the best people in this field would be
>>hostile to involvement with anything related to UFOs.  So it may
>>be difficult to get anyone who really knows anything involved.

><snip>

>I agree with your statement that the best people in the field
>would be hostile to getting involved with this as a UFO
>incident. I think it would also be best if the person doing the
>study was not related to the field anyway.....don't you? :)

>Scott


Absolutely. I've talked to several people who do this sort of
stuff for industry and the government, but so far they have all
declined to be involved once they find out the nature of what is
being studied.

I'm in contact now with one of the very top people in this
field, and he seems like he might be willing to try, but he says
he would only consider it if we could bring him the original
negative in NYC, since he must do the scan himself if he is
going to apply his software to it. I doubt that the U of T
would loan us the negative.

Bob






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:41:55 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:18:35 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:27:19 -0500
>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com>
>>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:31:49 EST
>>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: NEW MJ-12 Documents on the Internet!!!

>I have been perusing these documents.  One, in particular, had
>some intriguing information:

>http://www.thewordistruth.org/img/uploads/13.pdf

>quoting from p. 5 of this alleged 1st annual report from MJ12
>(dated 1952):

>"F. Biological Warfare Programs

>BW programs in US and UK are in field test stages.  Discovery of
>new virus and bacteria agents so lethal, that serums derived by
>genetic research, can launch medical science into unheard of
>fields of biology.  The samples extracted from bodies found in
>New Mexico, have yielded new strains of a retro-virus not
>totally understood, but, give promise of the ultimate BW weapon.
>The danger lies in the spread of airborne and blood borne
>outbreaks of diseases in large populations, with no medical
>cures available."

>Did we know about retro-virii in 1952?  Anyway, this section
>combined with the following report on p. 9:


Terry,

Linda Howe told me about these documents last month.  She had
gotten advance copies of them and read sections to me.

I was immediately wary when I heard that reference to
retrovirus.

No, we didn't know about retrovirus then.  The term was coined
in the late 70s.  We didn't know about them in the late 60s when
I was briefly involved in BW.

I think these documents are bogus.





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   Dec > Dec 4

               Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth

From: Christophe Meessen <meessen@cppm.in2p3.fr>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 14:13:07 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:22:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth


>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>>From: Christophe Meessen <meessen@cppm.in2p3.fr>
>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>

<snip>

>>>Sorry, but Terry Dickinson and I both looked at Joachim's work
>>>years ago and found it not to have merit for a bunch of reasons.
>>>The portrayal above of the conversation with the alien is
>>>fictional.

>>It was based on the reading of Joachim's document. I have no
>>access to Fuller's book here.

The Koch & Kyborg article start with a long citation of the
Fuller's book (page 228 if I remember well) reporting the
"conversation" preceeding the view of the map by Betty Hill.
Apparently Koch and I did not invented the "context"
information. Since I don't have the book I can't check M. Koch's
citation accuracy. So when you claim that it is fictional I must
understand that you mean that Fuller's book report or that Betty
Hill's report which should have been recorded on tape as stated
by Fuller and reported by Koch.

Well the map is comming out of the same source and I would be
curious to know how you can make the difference between
fictional and not fictional data into Fuller's book. If you call
back into question the reported "conversation", you also have to
call back into question the map itself since it is from the same
source. So this "fictional conversation" unjustified claim does
not help deciding between Koch's and Fisch's interpretation.

>>But your argument saying you and other guys checked it and
>>concluded the theory had to be rejected does not impress me by
>>itself. I would like to hear some more substantial arguments
>>explainign _why_ you concluded that the theory proposed by
>>Joachim does not hold. Like planets position not matching the
>>map, etc.

<snip>

>I don't like to simplify our analysis of Koch's work. Frankly
>there were so many baseless assumptions and distortions that
>after a while we gave up.

<snip>

Thank you for your honesty. So you _don't_ have any solid
argument that could show any errors in Koch's interpretation.

The question is very simple and very clear. Does the map match
our solar systeme configuration at a given date and time ? This
is a very simple question. To answer this question we don't need
to make any assumption of the data source's credibility. Koch's
claim is that the map matches our solar system at a given date.
All is needed is to verify this claim. Has anybody succeeded in
showing it is false ? Apparently no.

Beside, if you gave up verifying Koch's thesis, wouldn't it be
more correct then to say that _you can't rule on Koch's thesis_
instead of saying that _you rejected it_ which could lead to the
misinterpretation (sp?) that you concluded that Koch's thesis is
wrong.

>The Update I mentioned deals with a number of objections. It is
>interesting that everybody who attacked Marge's work
>misrepresented what she did.

I don't think it is very constructive to bring the debate on
whether people are attacking each other. The debat should be
around the question : does the map match a given configuration
of our solar system ? This does not call back into question
Fisch's conclusion as long at it is clearly stated that she
found _one of the possible_ match to the map. Apparenlty other
where found. At least it would prove Sagan's thesis that we can
find many stars and/or planets configuration that can match the
map.

But then we can raise the question of the most plausible
interpretation, and unless Koch's interpretation can be proven
wrong, I think that Koch' s intepretation makes more sense for
many obvious reasons. I still raise my hat to Mrs. Fisch's work
and would encourage scientists to keep on studying the UFO
mystery.


Bien cordialement,






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               Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth

From: Christophe Meessen <meessen@cppm.in2p3.fr>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 14:21:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:27:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth


>Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 19:41:18 -0500
>From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Planet Discovered 35 Light Years From Earth
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

<snip>

>Two ways to find our New Discoveries in Betty Hill's Star Map:
>
>1.: type: http://www.ufos.de --->Themen--->A--->Abduktionen
>         New Discoveries...
>
>2.: type: http://www.blarg.net/~badzmaru/Betty_Hill


Apparently the pages has been removed. I would be glad if you
could give a new location that includes the pictures.

Bien cordialement,






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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:46:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:36:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:41:10 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>If you think that a book claiming that large numbers of "aliens" are
>flooding into the US (and elsewhere) and forcibly impregnating women
>from the host population to produce a generation of mixed-race hybrids
>has no overtones of traditional racist fears you have rather less
>imagination than I thought.

This is not at all what traditional racist fear is about. Nor is
it what The Threat is about.

The Threat is about aliens who want to take over the earth and
replace the human race. Impregnating women to create hybrids is
one part of that alleged plan -- but then, so is taking sperm
from men. You'll find male abductees not happy at all with their
sexual abuse on the part of their abductors -- something that
doesn't fit the traditional imagery of racial fear at all.

Frankly, John, I thought you'd take the chapter on rampaging
hybrids from 'The Threat' as your text here.

For those who haven't read the book, Dave Jacobs has abductees
supposedly remembering encounters with human/alien hybrids right
here on earth .These hybrids, it seems, aren't happy with their
lives cooped up on UFOs doing the aliens' work. Some of them get
sexually frustrated, and assault their femaile "projects" (the
alleged alien way of saying "abductee"), sometimes brutally.

That, however, wouldn't be like the traditional racist fear
either, because the hybrids are depicted as emotionally
disturbed -- and, _very_ key point here, not sexier than we are.

The key to traditional racist fear, as it relates to sex, is the
fear on white people's part that darker races are sexier than we
are. Hence the myth about black men having larger penises.

A while ago I got to know Guillermo Gomez-Pena, a performance
artist who (among other things) satirizes white stereotypes of
Hispanics. He's from Los Angeles, and particularly stresses fear
of immigration. The picture of a Hispanic man -- a white
person's picture, that is -- that he presents shows us a tall,
violent, hairy, macho, overwhelmingly sexual stud. The heart of
the racial/sexual fear is the secret belief that white people
are sexually inadequate, and that "darker" races -- primitive,
childish, violent, closer to the earth -- are much more sexually
potent. Our women, however, are more delicate and feminine, and
so men of other races covet them. That's why "they're after our
women," to quote what John earlier said 'The Threat' was about.

So how does fear of strong, macho, sexually potent immigrants
transmute itself into fantasies of abduction by small, weak,
hairless, unemotional, sexless aliens without any genitals?

If you want a perfect, classic embodiment of this racial/sexual
fear, look at 'King Kong'. White people go to an island where
black "natives" live. These "natives" (a disgusting racist term,
in my view, and I'm using it here only to put the story in
proper perspective) have never seen white people before. When
they see a blonde white woman, they WANT her, and kidnap her to
sacrifice to their god -- who is a giant gorilla. When I first
saw the movie I stared at it in dumbfounded amazement, not sure
whether to laugh or cry. I'd rarely seen such a pure embodiment
of white racial fear. There's nothing like this in 'The Threat',
or any other abduction text. The aliens don't want our women.
They aren't sexual, and aren't sexually attracted to us. They
_use_ our women -- and our men -- for purposes that aren't
really sexual. That's a very different story, and even the
hybrids that run amok don't fit the traditional racial syndrome.
They're just desperate; they don't have any sexual power that
could represent a threat. They're disturbed rapists, not macho
studs.

By the way, it's possible for other races to have somewhat
similar fears of white people. I wonder if anyone on the list
has ever read anything by Frances Cress Welsing, a black
psychologist who writes about racism. She thinks white people
crave the melanin that gives people of African descent their
skin color. Because of this craving, she says (real crackpot
stuff here) white men lust after black women, so they can breed
children superior to the pale, weak little beings they'd father
if they impregnated someone white.

And, though this is much less intense psychologically, black
women are often resentful when they see a black man with a white
woman. They think the white woman has 'stolen' one of their men.
This has roots in something very real -- the perceived shortage
of acceptably marriageable men in black communities, probably
related to the many poor black families without a father.

Greg Sandow






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:59:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:38:41 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:11:16 -0500
>From: Peter Brookesmith - Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
>Subject: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza:

>>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:27:19 -0500
>>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>Did we know about retro-virii in 1952?

>No. The mechanism of retroviruses was first discovered by Howard
>Temin. He began work on the problem in 1960, and presented his
>findings to a virology conference at Duke U. in 1964.

<snip>

The honorable Duke has come through again!  I received similar
information via private email.

My Turkish friend, Hamdi, points out another apparent
anachronism in the document labeled "White Hot Intelligence"
with the use of the word "micro-electronics".

Still, I think these documents deserve scrutiny.  If they are
hoaxed, they are a magnificent work of art!

Terry





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 10:21:28 PST
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:57:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:41:10 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 16:01:57 PST

>>The problem with the PSH, aside from its failings when it comes
>>to the hardcore UFO evidence (in good part though not entirely
>>in the CE2 category),

>As I have pointed out before PSH and ETH are discussing two
>entirely different topics. The PSH would not be invalidated even
>if some UFO events *were* extraterrestrial craft.

As I have said more than once, the problem with psychosocial
ufology is that it is typically very poorly argued and
conceived. It bears the same relationship to science that
literary criticism does. That there _are_ psychological and
social aspects to the UFO issue goes without saying. A more
rigorous, less speculative, less ideological psychosocial
approach would be helpful to all of us.

>>is that it is wholly unfalsifiable.  It
>>substitutes literary criticism for science, as its critics,
>>prominently among them me (and I was once an advocate), have
>>pointed out again and again.  It's an approach to ufology best
>>suited to librarians and English majors.

>I notice you snipped the little bit where I asked if *you*
>actually thought that abductions were the result of
>"intervention by off-planet forces". I think this is the third
>time you've dodged that question.

Haven't you read, for example, my encyclopedia?  How can you say
I have "dodged" the question when I've written about it
repeatedly and extensively?  Come on, John.  In any event, my
views on the abduction phenomenon are not at issue here.

>>A "significant concern," huh?  What's your evidence?  As
>>somebody who lives here every day of his life, I see no evidence
>>of such a "significant concern," which is why it is dangerous to
>>draw your conclusions from a distance, where you get your
>>impressions from reading

>>>American magazines, see[ing] American TV documentaries, and
>>>indeed some of us even visit America, and it is clear that this
>>>is an important issue.

>>No, it ain't.  It's fodder for cable TV shows pandering to a
>>fringe audience, and that's about it.  Otherwise, it gets
>>treated in the occasional cartoon, the occasional passing
>>reference by a stand-up comedian, the occasional paper (usually
>>not well informed) in a social or psychological journal.  You
>>cannot expect me to take any argument you make seriously if you
>>insist that there is anything like an abduction panic, concern,
>>or whatever word you're employing currently.  It just isn't
>>there, and you'd know that if you knew a whole lot more about
>>this country than you do.

>I'm actually talking about issues of race and immigration being a major
>concern, not abductions. I wonder if you have misunderstood me, or are
>you saying that these important topics are only discussed by fringe
>cable shows and stand-up comics? If so, thank God for British television
>where serious topics get serious attention!

Then you ought to make yourself clearer, John.  Remember, it was
just a few days ago that you were telling us an "abduction
panic" is going on here.  That was later de-escalated to a mere
"concern."  How could I not have thought you were talking about
abductions? This is not, after all,  a list on race and
immigration matters.  To the extent that race and immigration
enter the discussion here, it's their relationship -- or
nonrelationship -- to UFOs and/or the abduction phenomenon.

>>It's amazing.  Greg Sandow and I have both addressed this
>>ridiculous allegation.  Neither of us is unaware of, or
>>insensitive to, racial problems and images in our society, and
>>this certainly went past us.  It seems to have gone by just
>>about everybody, including Jacobs, who when he's not a ufologist
>>is a professor of American Studies.

>>It also went past by my fiance, who has little interest in UFOs but
>>is something of an authority (and a published one) on race,
>>ethnicity, and literature.  She happened to read The Threat and
>>had some interesting observations to make.  These American
>>racial threads you found so easily completely escaped her, too.
>>Could it be -- perish the heresy -- that they're not there,
>>except in your own mind?

>If you think that a book claiming that large numbers of "aliens" are
>flooding into the US (and elsewhere) and forcibly impregnating women
>from the host population to produce a generation of mixed-race hybrids
>has no overtones of traditional racist fears you have rather less
>imagination than I thought.

Yes, it's true I cannot claim the sort of imagination you
possess. So I am going to have to ask you to explain yourself,
as you have not been asked to do heretofore:

Are you saying that

(1) female abductees who believe they have had unconsensual sex
with extraterrestrials are racists who are acting out their fear
of black people or Hispanics by imagining assaults by
gray-skinned, large-headed humanoids?

or

(2) a psychic cloud hangs over white America and it drops on
people at random, regardless of their individual racial views,
causing them to have extraordinarily vivid fantasies about rape
by blacks or Hispanics disguised as gray-skinned, large-headed
humanoids?

A third, not unrelated question:  Do you believe that all, or
even most, or even a significant portion of America has the
racial attitudes that were current in the Deep South four
decades ago?  Judging from your apparent sense of American
racial views, I fear it's hard to come to any other conclusion.


>>>But when someone _does_ have an abduction experience, whether
>>>that be triggered by sleep paralysis or some other psychological
>>>trigger, the structure and imagery of the events, the "story" if
>>>you like, is going to be shaped by the individuals own
>>>experiences and the sociolocical conditions in which they live.
>>>In America, and also in Britain, one of those conditions is an
>>>ongoing concern about personal and collective identity - not the
>>>only one, and I think personal identity is a greater factor than
>>>collective identity in most cases - some of which is expressed
>>>in racial (not necessarily racist) terms.

>>This assertion is so broad and sweeping as to be functionally
>>meaningless.  Who living and breathing anywhere on earth does
>>not have some sort of "ongoing concern about personal and
>>collective identity"?

>Absolutely no-one, that's the whole point.

In other words, your hypothesis is utterly unfalsifiable.  You
might as well say that people have abduction experiences because
on some level they fear being deprived of oxygen.

>>In any event, it has to be demonstrated,
>>as it has not been except by verbiage, that this "ongoing
>>concern" has anything to do with people's vivid experience of
>>abduction by alien beings.

>>If you are saying that data are more important in hypothesis-
>>formation than imaginative rhetorical leaps between, say, A and
>>Q, I agree.  If someone wanted to conduct such a study, fine.
>>The evidence available to date does not lead me to believe we're
>>going to learn there is a racial dimension to abduction
>>experiences, and I can think of other approaches that strike me
>>as more likely to tell us something we don't already know, but
>>what the hell.  If somebody wants to do it, more power to him or
>>her.

>No, it's perfectly falsifiable. If black and white people have
>proportionately the same number of abductions and their
>abduction narratives are similar it would suggest that race is
>not a factor in the structuring of the abduction experience -
>although it would not rule out other factors. I say that the
>earlier cases would be more indicative because these would be
>less influenced by recent mass media coverage of the
>'standardised' Greys, *a la* Hopkins and so forth.

I remain unconvinced.  The whole notion seems rigged to assure
that no matter what the result, you could argue that the study
comes to the desired conclusion.  For example, one huge,
immediate problem:

Where is your cut-off date?  At what point do early abductees
become just generic abductees?  If, for example, it were found
(as I am certain it would) that black abductees were reporting
gray-skinned humanoids from the beginning, what is to prevent
you from saying that this shows those social influences from
white society must have been there from the beginning?

I have no trouble imagining the response in Magonia's pages: you
and your contributors would fill the magazine with examples from
contemporary popular culture, where there are representations of
large-headed humanoids, and you would pronounce the matter
solved.  That's the problem with the sorts of unfalsifiable
hypotheses you traffic in.

In any case, your hypothesis, if I understand it, is so
conceptually flawed that one's head can only shake that you are
proposing it seriously.  (See remarks above about psychic clouds
and racist abductees.)

More realistically, I can propose empirical work that cries out
to be done: an attempt to replicate the important work of
Rodeghier, Goodpaster, and Blatterbauer (JUFOS 2, n.s., 1991),
whose suggestive findings also bring several other testable
hypotheses to mind -- hypotheses that may well tell us something
demonstrable, not merely speculative or ideological, about the
nature of both abduction claimants and their experiences.

Jerry Clark







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                              Re: 'Phone Noise'

From: Diane Lovett <rambld@erols.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:35:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 23:08:24 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 21:34:52 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: 'Phone Noise'

>>From: Diane Lovett <rambld@erols.com>
>>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:56:18 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:36:14 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'

>Previously, Diane offered:

>>I have had this type of noise, static, beeps, etc., on phone
>>lines for many years now, when discussing ET and abduction
>>topics with other abductees, researchers, etc.

>>It has over the years effectively ended many such conversations.

>>I have also heard many other abductees complain of the same
>>problem, and it in general it is accepted as being "them"
>>listening in and interfering when discussions are getting too
>>close for comfort so to speak.

>>Personally I have found it happens most often whenever any phone
>>conversation is about shared sighting or abduction events, as
>>though we are not allowed to compare notes. I know it sounds
>>like the x-files, but I do think you will find it happens a lot.

Roger said:

>Ted Viens, another list participant, and I are often interrupted
>on the phone by strange clicking sounds. In the past we have
>always joked about it being the CIA or IRS or some government
>group listening in.

>Now, it would seem, we have something else to worry about! Gads!

>Seriously, considering how new the Internet is (relative to UFO
>abductions) I wonder if "they" also monitor E-mail and would try
>to interfere? An interesting test would be a simultaneous oral
>conversation on the phone and typed conversation via E-mail or
>live discussion chat room on the Internet.

>If "they" are really determined to stop the conversation, "they"
>would certainly have their hands full. In addition, such a test
>might determine if the interference was deliberate or just an
>anomoly. Obviously, you'd need two phone lines.

>Just a thought...

>Later,
>Roger Evans

Roger,

I didn't mention it in the earlier post because the question had
related only to phone troubles, but yes, the years I have been
on the internet have been plagued by similar disruptions of
conversations. These also seem to happen most often in email,
chat, etc., with other abductees or researchers. Again, ask most
any abductee if they have had similar experiences with computer
communications, and I suspect it will be a high rate of "yes"
answers.

Like the phone, obviously the computer is prone to lots of
things that could cause such disruptions, but the number of
times they happen in conjunction with the subject of ET and
abductions compared to other topics is noticeably high, at least
for me and others I know.

About the "black gov" types being involved, until this year I
have to admit that even though I accepted it as a possibility, I
admit that I scoffed more often than not over such conspiracy
stories. All of that changed for me after finding myself
followed by cars with "GOV" plates after joining an abductee
support group, and very recently having major problems with
hackers that blew away all of my skepticism.

I won't go into all of the details, but suffice it to say that I
was forced to get a crash course in firewalls, IP tracing, and
other aspects of computer security that covered a lot more than
I really wanted to know! Once I got into it and tried to track
my hackers (who had placed a "trojan horse" program on my
system) I was able to identify one address sending and receiving
info from my system as a DOD address. Of course I was
immediately blocked from getting further details of that
address.  All of these experiences have left me quite
dumbfounded and definitely no longer so skeptical of the
conspiracy folks.

I basically have decided that for me life must simply go on as
usual, business as usual. I have done nothing wrong, and if
someone somewhere, be it ET or the GOV, want to listen in on me,
oh well, so be it. (Though I have wiped my hard drives and set
up as much security as I can!) Hope I haven't set anyone off
saying this, but it is what has happened to me, and in a way I





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   Dec > Dec 4

                              Re: The Challenge

From: Diane Lovett <rambld@erols.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:44:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 23:15:18 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: The Challenge
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:06:36 -0500

>>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Challenge
>>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:13:34 -0500

>>On a final and personal note (and, as someone with a fairly
>>conventional scientific background) this is difficult fo me to
>>write), although I have followed the UFO phenomenon for many
>>years, I do not discuss it with my family, nor do I have books
>>strewn around the house.  It therefore sent a shiver down my
>>spine when my five year old son came into our room two nights
>>ago and said that he was getting tired of little people with big
>>back eyes standing around his bed every night.

Greg wrote:

>A shiver indeed....it sent a shiver down my own spine when I
>read this.

>So, Brian....would it make you feel better or worse to know that
>you're hardly the only parent to have this experience? You're
>not. This part of the abduction phenomenon isn't discussed very
>much, but there are many reports of kids saying things like this
>to their parents. "I don't like those little people. They take
>me up to the sky." Things like that.

>Of course they could have heard talk like that somewhere. Or so
>many of us would like to reassure ourselves.

>Greg Sandow

Greg,

For me this has been the hardest part of the whole experience,
and it makes me mad as a hornet that the subject seems to get
swept under the rug so much. I suspect that may be because it is
one aspect of abductions that makes folks feel so completely
impotent.

I can assure you that for parents who have had little ones (as
young as 2) come to them for information and protection from
abductions, it is the worst nightmare possible.

To know beyond any personal doubt that your child is being
taken, and hurt, and be unable to stop it, let alone really
explain it to them, is something that makes my own abductions
and that of other adults pale in comparison.






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   Dec > Dec 5

                              Re: 'Phone Noise'

From: Diane Lovett <rambld@erols.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:53:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 00:13:06 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'


>From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'Phone Noise'
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:38:40 -0600

>>>From: Diane Lovett <rambld@erols.com>
>>>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:56:18 -0500
>>>Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:36:14 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'

><snip>

>>>I have had this type of noise, static, beeps, etc., on phone
>>>lines for many years now, when discussing ET and abduction
>>>topics with other abductees, researchers, etc.

>>>It has over the years effectively ended many such conversations.

>>>I have also heard many other abductees complain of the same
>>>problem, and it in general it is accepted as being "them"
>>>listening in and interfering when discussions are getting too
>>>close for comfort so to speak.

Tim wrote:

>If 'they' wanted to do so, wouldn't they have the capabilites to
>tap/monitor the line in such a way that you would never know it
>(if we are talking about some CIA/NSA/black op type group)?  Or
>maybe they're more interested in your reaction to the clicks you
>hear, or as you say, just effectively ending your conversation?
>Just a thought.

>Tim

Tim, I have always thought "they", be it ET or others, were in
no way attempting to hide the manipulation and interference.
Seems whoever they are that they want us to know that the
conversation is "unacceptable", an act of intimidation really.

Forgive my French, but screw 'em. I never liked being told what
I could and couldn't talk about, and figure little old me has
nothing to say that can't be said by many others, so I have
chosen to no longer worry about it.

When I had my recent hacker experience (in another post), I had
a security guy tell me that if GOV types were hacking me, or
tapping my phone, I would never know it. I just thought to
myself "yea, unless they want me to know just enough to feel
intimidated, but not enough to prove anything!"

This world is a pretty messed up place, but I still have hope
for it!






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                Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:12:59 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 00:23:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc


>From: Jakes Louw <LOUWJE@telkom.co.za>
>Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:00:07 +0200
>Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:05:26 -0500
>Subject: Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc

>>UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> 12/04 2:34 AM
>>From: Moderator, UFO UpDates

>>      A superior form of colonizing will have to be conceived,
>>that could be a kind of tutelage, possibly through the tacit
>>approval of the United Nations. But would the United Nations
>>legally have the right of allowing such tutelage over us in such
>>a fashion?

>Just a question to somebody who knows their history:

>When was the UN formed? As far as I remember, the UN was created
>from the concept of the League of Nations, but I can't remember
>when....

The concept was created during WW II when some documents talk
about the United Nations.  However, the charter was later.  Some
of the old League of Nations ideas are obviously there.
However, the idea was nations united against the common enemies
and for a better world when the war was over.  The Dunbar Oaks
Conference and the San Francisco meeting, lead to the final
organizing conference in London, in January 1946, and final the
charter.

In 1947, the established UN was brand new, the hope and the
concept was that the UN would become a supranational body.  In
1947, some journalists, politicians, and scientists were pushing
the concept of international control of nuclear weapons and
technology. The "Baruch Plan" for the control of was offered for
the international control of nuclear energy.  The UN was to have
its own "armed forces" drawn from member states.  The Air Force
had studies in 1947 which talked about the number of squadrons
necessary to met the UN commitment.

Heinlein incorporated this concept into his "future history"
science fiction series.  The UN having nuclear weapons that
could be launched against "outlaw" countries.

The 'tone' of this MJ-12 document seems more in concert with the
later 1970s/80s concept of the UN than the 1947.

>Regards,


>louwje@telkom.co.za

Regards,
--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
Telephone: (860) 546-9135





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   Dec > Dec 5

                       Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec

From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 12:21:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 00:31:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec


>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:42:21 -0500
>Subject: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec
>From: Jenifer Migneault <westy@endirect.qc.ca>
>To: updates@globalserve.net

>Hello to all of you,

>First, please excuse my poor English... ;0) I'll do my best to
>make myself understood by everyone!

>My husband and I (as well as many car drivers) witnessed last
>sunday night what it seems to be an UFO... Even thought it was
>beautifull to moment to live (hopefully, not the last one!!!!)
>it troubled me..

<snip>

Hi Jenifer,

I contacted you Tuesday by e-mail regarding your sighting.
Please can you reply me. I can help you. We at the A.Q.U.
(Association Quebecoise d'Ufologie) have investigated 73 cases
since may 98. Please call me at 514-865-0546.






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   Dec > Dec 5

                        Re: The 'Roswell Memo' Images

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 12:21:11 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 00:49:41 -0500
Subject: Re: The 'Roswell Memo' Images


>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:05:05 -0500 (EST)
>To: <updates@mail.globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images

>>From: Scott Krause <SKrause272@aol.com>
>>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:39:12 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo'
>Images

>>>Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 07:00:58 -0500 (EST)
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Randle On The 'Roswell Memo' Images

>>>Unfortunately, most of the best people in this field would be
>>>hostile to involvement with anything related to UFOs.  So it may
>>>be difficult to get anyone who really knows anything involved.

>><snip>

>>I agree with your statement that the best people in the field
>>would be hostile to getting involved with this as a UFO
>>incident. I think it would also be best if the person doing the
>>study was not related to the field anyway.....don't you? :)

>>Scott

Bob Shell said:

>Absolutely. I've talked to several people who do this sort of
>stuff for industry and the government, but so far they have all
>declined to be involved once they find out the nature of what is
>being studied.

>I'm in contact now with one of the very top people in this
>field, and he seems like he might be willing to try, but he says

>he would only consider it if we could bring him the original
>negative in NYC, since he must do the scan himself if he is
>going to apply his software to it. I doubt that the U of T
>would loan us the negative.

>Bob

James Bond Johnson sez:

Bob,

There are reported to be two of the Ramey office negatives (not
certain they have originals) -- one of Ramey alone and the GRIM
Ramey/Dubose ("GRD") -- at Bettman Archives in NYC. Perhaps
Bettman would agree to loan one or both negs for legit scanning.
The Ramey Message is held prominently in GRD but I haven't seen
a closeup and do not know whether this is the front or back side
of the message exposed to the camera.

BTW, have you noticed that in the first two shots I made of
Ramey alone he has the message clutched in his fist; in GRD he
is holding it folded in half, and in the final SMILING
Ramey/Dubose ("SRD") it is partially exposed as he has folded it
down for reading? That supports my theory that the general had
just been handed the message as he entered the room (his 8th Air
Force HQ office in Fort Worth) and was very anxious to read it
-- even DURING the foto shoot. That also supports my belief that
this message was the general's "marching orders" from on high to
issue the "cover-up" -- since it definitely mentions "VICTIMS OF
THE CRASH" at the beginning of the last paragraph and "WEATHER
BALLOON" near the end of the message.

That -- continuing my theory -- is the reason that the attitude
toward exposure of the Roswell wreckage changed dramatically as
soon as I left Ramey's office -- and the wreckage has _never_
since been seen by any known civilian.

Incidentally, there was apparent unanimous concurrence by more
than a hundred people attending (including, I understand, _many_
Roswell skeptics!) the MUFON Orange County presentation by Ron
Regehr recently as to a reading of these words and more as the
Ramey Message was projected onto a large screen for the
audience. (I understand that MUFON Orange County has a video of
Ron's presentation available for sale.)






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                Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 12:27:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 00:55:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc


>Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:00:07 +0200
>From: Jakes Louw <LOUWJE@telkom.co.za>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc

<snip>

>Just a question to somebody who knows their history:

>When was the UN formed? As far as I remember, the UN was created
>from the concept of the League of Nations, but I can't remember
>when....

Conceived (by FDR):  January 1, 1942
Charter adopted:  October 24, 1945.

See:

http://www.un.org/Overview/origin.html

Terry





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   Dec > Dec 5

                    Re: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience

From: David Rudiak  <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:34:44 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 01:00:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience


>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 02:47:56 EST
>>Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 08:34:00 -0500
>>Subject: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience [was: SETI

>>First he [Drake] starts by saying that from his experience, witnesses to
>>fireballs, were terribly unreliable, saying that their memory of
>>"exotic events" fades rapidly.  Then he gives the famous quote
>>often used by skeptics that after one day half the reports are
>>erroneous, after two days, three-quarters are, after fours days,
>>only 10% are any good, and after five days they are all more
>>imagination then truth.

<snip>

>>So on the whole it seems the witnesses don't really do all that
>>bad after all, as Drake sort of grudgingly admits.  Drake also
>>doesn't seem to consider that accuracy of eyewitness reports
>>also depend on the skill of the interviewer. Very experienced
>>investigators can often elicit more consistent descriptions and
>>useful data than inexperienced ones.


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 01:15:55 -0500
>Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:12:03 -0500
>Subject: Re: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience

>Even ol' Oberg has been caught in this "paradox."  He has
>uniformly criticized witness reports as being inaccurate. Yet,
>when it came to explaining a series of sighting in Sout America
>about 20years ago, he relied on witness testimony to positively
>identify fuel dumps from Russian rocjet launches.  There is no
>doubt that he was correct... and no doubt that the witnesses
>were 90% xcorrect (approximately) in their descriptions....
>certainly not in their INTERPRETATIONS...but in their
>descriptions.


Me:

>>Drake, though an astronomer, didn't normally chase fireballs.
>>But meteor specialists like Dr. Lincoln LaPaz did, and managed
>>to recover a large number meteorites by accurately triangulating
>>trajectories from the descriptions of eyewitnesses that he
>>interviewed.  With careful questioning followed by measurement,
>>LaPaz got highly consistent data used for triangulation.  (LaPaz
>>was the specialist the Air Force called in when the mysterious
>>green fireballs started whizzing over northern New Mexico and
>>some of our nuclear installations in late 1949.  Because of
>>numerous anomalous characteristics he deemed them to be
>>artificial in origin.)

I would like to expand on this a little bit by contrasting
LaPaz's use of witnesses with Drake's.  Is it really true that
eyewitness accounts after five days are "more imagination than
truth" as Drake wrote (and is often quoted by skeptobunkers)?
Apparently not, judging from LaPaz's results tracking down
meteorites through witness interviews.

By chance I happened to come across an obscure article by LaPaz
in the New Mexico Quarterly, Vol. 20, No. 5, Autumn 1950,
published by the Univ. of New Mexico, and titled "Meteoritics in
the Southwest." After speaking in general about meteors and
meteorites, LaPaz then describes how he recovered meteorites
from a bolide that exploded over Kansas on February 18, 1948.
The violent explosions, complete with mushroom-shaped clouds,
apparently led to public speculation of an errant V-2 from White
Sands with an atomic warhead, or even a Russian A-bomb.  And if
you read Frank Scully's 1950 book "Behind the Flying Saucers,"
he mentions the incident in his news clippings section,
suggesting it was another possible saucer crash.

Interestingly, the incident came to LaPaz's attention through
the Civilian Air Patrol at Kirtland AFB in Albuquerque.
Understandably, at first they treated the incident as a possible
plane crash.  But they and the AF continued to collect reports
for days afterwards and relayed them to LaPaz.  LaPaz's
explanation for this was as follows:

"While the value to meteoritics of such cooperation from the
military cannot be overestimated, it is also clear that CAP and
similar units profit by participating in meteorite hunts, for
the circumstances attending the search for meteorites are in
many respects analogous to those encountered in airforce search
and rescue work and resemble even more closely those that will
arise when the United States has occasion to defend itself
against attack by rockets and other guided missiles."

This explanation for their continued involvement may have been
partly true, though a bit strained on the whole.  As we now
know, LaPaz wasn't telling the reader the whole story here.  At
various times he was brought in by the Air Force as a secret
consultant on the many fireball and other UFO incidents over
sensitive New Mexico military and atomic installations.  There
are a few witnesses possibly tying him in with the aftermath of
the Roswell incident. In December 1948, he was brought in to
investigate the green fireballs over northern New Mexico.  A
spectacular green fireball seen from New Mexico and Texas on
Jan. 30, 1949 led to an extensive joint investigation by LaPaz,
the FBI, Army CIC (Counterintelligence Corp) and AFOSI (Office
of Special Investigations).  The following day (Jan. 31), the
FBI was briefed by Army and AF intelligence that the subject of
flying saucers was Top Secret. Furthermore a CIC memo of the
same day stated that the incident was being treated as a
possible crashed flying saucer and attempts were being made to
locate it.  That's where LaPaz came in.  He was supposed to
compute a trajectory and impact point through interviews with
witnesses.

Let us just say that the Air Force is not normally involved to
any great extent in helping civilian scientists track down
meteorites.  But I digress.

LaPaz wrote that by March 3, or 2+ weeks after the incident,
they had collected enough reports that they could compute with
some confidence where the Kansas meteorites would have come
down.  After the snow melted, LaPaz led an expedition in late
April and started to recover meteorite fragments.  For the next
several months, he and his team drove all over the Midwest and
interviewed "countless eyewitnesses" to the meteorite shower.
LaPaz wrote:

"On the basis of these interviews, of transit measures made from
the exact spots where observers had cringed during the
tumultuous infall of the meteorites, and of an instrumental
survey of the entire region of fall, it became possible to
prepare a map showing the distribution of the major meteorite
recoveries; to construct a central zenith projection of the
celestial sphere determining the apparent radiant of the
fireball; and to derive a fairly complete picture of what was
experienced by those fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to
witness the greatest of all known stony meteorite showers."

When you study the various figures in the article summarizing
the data provided from the eyewitness interviews, one is struck
by the enormous consistency among the accounts.  E.g., one
figure plots the directions of three major events in this
meteorite shower fall reported by 24 witnesses from widely
scattered vantage points.  These events were the two main
explosions and the final impact site.  It is abundantly clear in
examining this figure that the directions given by people from
all over the place converge to the exact same three event
locations with a surprising degree of consistency. Another
figure plots information from 10 witnesses which LaPaz used to
determine the radiant from which the fireball emerged.  Again
the figure shows a high degree of directional consistency across
witnesses.

Yet Drake wrote that people's ability to relate the directional
information with regards to fireball sightings tended to be
rather poor, with a few exceptions.  Also note that most of
these eyewitness reports used by LaPaz were collected days to
MONTHS after the event.  But Drake claimed that after only a
single day, half the reports were "clearly erroneous," and after
five days they were "more imagination than truth," or if you
will, virtually worthless.

"This is something that the UFO investigator rarely
appreciates," comments Drake.  "The common procedure of starting
a UFO investigation days after an event cannot lead to the most
accurate description of the event."

Well obviously it's always best to get reports as soon as
possible, but LaPaz's article reveals that reports taken even
months later could still provide highly accurate information.

Maybe the problem isn't so much with the witnesses as with the
investigators. In Drake's case, he and fellow fireball
investigators were normally radio astronomers at the National
Radio Astronomy Observatory.  Chasing down meteorites and
interviewing witnesses wasn't their field of specialty.
Different skills are required.  In the case of LaPaz and
colleagues, this WAS their specialty.  In his day, LaPaz was a
renowned meteor expert and meteorite finder.  He was very
experienced at interviewing eyewitnesses to fireball events and
greatly valued their contribution.  As a result, LaPaz seems to
have gotten excellent data from the witnesses, whereas Drake's
experience seems to have left him disillusioned.  Drake then
took this disillusionment, which may have been more the result
of his own lack of experience in the field, and used it to
disparage UFO reports and witnesses.

Scientifically the 1948 Kansas meteorites turned out to be an
extremely important discovery. At the time, it was the largest
single find of very rare and fragile achondritic stony
meteorites, rather than the more common nickel- iron or
stony-iron meteorites.  LaPaz felt it lent strong support to the
theory that meteors were the remains of the so-called "meteorite
planet," which shattered in some catastrophe early in the
formation of the solar system.  Nickel-iron meteorites came from
the core, whereas the achondrites, or silicate meteorites came
from the crust.

LaPaz listed the following references for those who wished to
learn more:

Lincoln LaPaz, "Norton, Kansas Meteor," Science Illustrated,
Vol. 3, No. 11, Nov. 1948

Lincoln LaPaz, "The Achondritic Shower of February 18, 1948,"
Publication of the Astronomical Society of the Pacific, Vol. 61,
No. 359, April, 1949.


David Rudiak





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                  Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:37:00 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 01:02:50 -0500
Subject: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:24:00 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>Hello, list...

>Well, I'd love to give my input and opinion about the New MJ-12
>Documents....But I can't get into the damn website!

>Actually, I CAN. But I've been bumped off 6 times in a row and
>it's getting to be a REAL drag.

>I swear I've only been able to stay online for about 30 seconds
>before it throws me off and my Internet connection
>crashes...again and again.

>It only happens with that particular website.

>Has anyone else had this problem? Just wondering...

>Feeling a little testy in Houston,
>Roger Evans


It's those damned GRAYS Roger!  They are interfering with the
phone lines again to keep you from learning the TRUTH.

Bob

"The truth really isn't out there."






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 12:08:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 01:04:58 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:59:08 -0500
>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

<snip>

>The honorable Duke has come through again!  I received similar
>information via private email.

>My Turkish friend, Hamdi, points out another apparent
>anachronism in the document labeled "White Hot Intelligence"
>with the use of the word "micro-electronics".

>Still, I think these documents deserve scrutiny.  If they are
>hoaxed, they are a magnificent work of art!

>Terry

Some of these documents aren't all that new, but not widely
distributed.

If anyone can find out the provenance of these documents, that
would be of interest.  They provide a lot of detail that can
possibly be checked against other records to point out
anachronisms (such as those alleged above) or other
incongruities.

The web site has a press contact, Melina Mattei
(mmattei@earthlink.net), and she might be able to provide
additional information.  The web page is promoting an on-line
book, and the MJ-12 documents were apparently an addition placed
on the site in November.

Steve





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 19:50:52 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 01:07:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:14:05 -0500

>>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:54:21 -0500
>>From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis@ccsi.com>
>>To: UFOUpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: UFOUpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>For that matter, if anyone on the list is in contact with
>>Hopkins, Strieber, Jacobs, Mack and others who are likely to
>>have significant databases on UFO/abduction experiencers,
>>please send them a message asking simply what percentage of
>>their contacts is Black (and go ahead and ask for an across the
>>board list of other ethnicities) so we can get some actual data
>>on this real question that has been raised on this list.

>I'm going to do this. I talk to Budd a lot and I'll ask him.

>It strikes me, too, that there's one source of information we've
>all been forgetting. It's that controversial Roper poll, the one
>that supposedly showed that 2.5 to 5 percent of Americans could
>be abductees.

>I know that many people dismiss these results. The poll asked
>about experiences that Budd Hopkins and David Jacobs thought
>were indicators of abductions, things like strange lights in the
>room with you at night, and periods of missing time. Critics of
>the poll point out, with perfect truth, that nobody has ever
>proved that people who have these experiences really are
>abductees. The information goes the other way -- most abductees
>have most of these experiences. But we don't know whether other
>people have the experiences without also having abduction
>memories.

>Still, even with this caveat, it would be interesting to know
>how answers to the poll sort out by race. Did as many black
>people (by percentage) as white people say they'd had the
>experiences?

>I'll try to find out.

Excellent

>Greg Sandow

I agree, this is interesting. Although the Roper Poll was flawed
in the questions it asked and the interpretations drawn from the
answers, it was presumably conducted according to standard
polling practice and incorporated a standard ethnic sampling. A
study of Roper by race would interesting beyond the UFO field,
in showing racial attitudes to a variety of "paranormal"
phenomena. This is potentially important.

I know that a number of people connected with British groups
read this list. BUFORA now has an extensive reports database. Is
such an analysis possible from the UK data? BUFORA... anyone
there?

--
J. Rimmer, Magonia Magazine
Editorial team: White Anglo-Saxons, 2; White Celtic, 1; Mancunian, 1.
www.magonia.demon.co.uk





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:06:06 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 01:12:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:46:05 -0500

>>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:41:10 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>If you think that a book claiming that large numbers of "aliens" are
>>flooding into the US (and elsewhere) and forcibly impregnating women
>>from the host population to produce a generation of mixed-race hybrids
>>has no overtones of traditional racist fears you have rather less
>>imagination than I thought.

>This is not at all what traditional racist fear is about. Nor is
>it what The Threat is about.

>The Threat is about aliens who want to take over the earth and
>replace the human race. Impregnating women to create hybrids is
>one part of that alleged plan -- but then, so is taking sperm
>from men. You'll find male abductees not happy at all with their
>sexual abuse on the part of their abductors -- something that
>doesn't fit the traditional imagery of racial fear at all.

Predatory sexuality, male to female *and* female to male is a
prominent part of racial stereotypes, and that is what "The
Threat" is about.

>Frankly, John, I thought you'd take the chapter on rampaging
>hybrids from 'The Threat' as your text here.

No, that was just too silly even for me!


<snip>

>So how does fear of strong, macho, sexually potent immigrants
>transmute itself into fantasies of abduction by small, weak,
>hairless, unemotional, sexless aliens without any genitals?

They are powerful through the near-magical technology they
employ to "steal our women". Loathsome Nazi sterotypes of Jews
depicted physically inferior figures gaining power over "Aryan"
women through slyness, money and deceit.

>By the way, it's possible for other races to have somewhat
>similar fears of white people. I wonder if anyone on the list
>has ever read anything by Frances Cress Welsing, a black
>psychologist who writes about racism. She thinks white people
>crave the melanin that gives people of African descent their
>skin color. Because of this craving, she says (real crackpot
>stuff here) white men lust after black women, so they can breed
>children superior to the pale, weak little beings they'd father
>if they impregnated someone white.

How widely spread are these notions? Is it just Ms Welsing, or
are these ideas being propagated generally? If so, perhaps the
narratives of Black abductees (always assuming there _is_ a
significant number of them) reflect this.

--
J. Rimmer
www.magonia.co.uk





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 19:16:53 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 01:17:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:31:06 -0500


>You know....half-joking, half-seriously, I'd like to point out
>that white Americans aren't the only one who've shown some
>"concern" about immigration. I was joking with John Velez the
>other day, and suggested that Hispanics might resent the new
>wave of Asians, who are doing so well economically. But come to
>think of it, that's not entirely a joke, because there _have_ in
>fact been tensions between Asians and African-Americans
>(especially when Koreans run thriving markets in black
>neighborhoods).

>Further joking with John, I suggested that a Puerto Rican like
>him would resent the newer group of immigrants from the
>Dominican Republic, who tend to be lower on the social scale. He
>laughed, but said that he _does_ know Puerto Ricans who are
>outright bigots against Domincans.

>So there's yet another glitch with the "white fear" theory of
>abductions. Even assuming fear of immigrants had something to do
>with abduction reports, it's not clear that whites would feel
>that fear more than other groups. They're just more famous for
>it.

Of course this is only a "glitch" if it can be shown that
Blacks, Asians and Hispanics are reporting abductions in the
same proportion as the White population, and this is a long way
from being proven - which is where we started this debate
really. The inter-community tensions you describe are present in
the UK too, between Afro-Caribbeans, Indians, Pakistanis and
Bengalis, and between all these above and the White population
(who are now getting their own inter-ethnic "concerns" with
Bosnians, Romanians (tonight's London Evening Standard describes
an "invasion" of 100 Romanians), Slovak Romanies... and what





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 19:42:15 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 01:20:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:08:58 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>[This thread is wandering dangerously off-topic folks -
> reel it in, please.--ebk]

>Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:41:10 +0000
>>Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:15:36 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>Previously, Mr. Rimmer had written:
>
>>I'm actually talking about issues of race and immigration being a
>>major concern, not abductions. I wonder if you have misunderstood
>>me, or are you saying that these important topics are only discussed
>>by fringe cable shows and stand-up comics? If so, thank God for
>>British television where serious topics get serious attention!

>There are only two words I agree with in the above statement:

>"Get serious".

>I think you might be confusing the issues of "race" and "race
>relations" as well as confusing "immigration" with "illegal
>aliens" or "undocumented workers".

>As Jerome Clark has pointed out, the topics of race and
>immigration are not at the forefront of concern in this country.
>This isn't a matter of personal perception. It just isn't there,
>regardless of what the BBC says on one of its programs. So my
>advice is to drop this nonsense about something that you
>obviously know nothing about.

>On the other hand, if you are talking about "race relations",
>then that is something that is of passing concern. However, I
>hardly think you'll find that unique to America, or any other
>country, regardless of their perceived abduction rate.

No, it's certainly not unique to America. What is (not quite)
unique to America is that a large number of people (tiny in
proportion to the total population but numbering in the
thousands) believe they have been abducted. This belief did not
arise in each individual because they were scared of the Black
or Hispanic family down the street. Each individual case has its
own genesis, but if we propose that these abductions are *not*
caused by off-planet invervention (and I know that in the US
that is a pretty controversial thing to propose) then the
"stories" told by these abductees have to have come from
somewhere. That "somewhere" is the brain of the experient, a
brain which has been conditioned by living in a society, and all
the influences that society has had on him/her.

>More significant would be the issue (if it is one) of "illegal
>aliens". However, this is more of a political problem than a
>social one. Why? Because most people only object to the idea of
>illegal aliens based on principle. The actual existence of
>illegal aliens and undocumented workers in this country has
>become part of the social fabric. Much of the economy depends on
>these people to do jobs that many Americans would never do. It's
>not something that people like to talk about, but it's true.

I think that Peter Rogerson's original speculation was concerned
with large scale Hispanic immigration into the USA. As you say a
lot of this is illegal and this raises particular issues, such
as you describe - it may be illegal but you can't manage without
it.

>Regarding "immigration"; just what kind of problem do you think
>we have? Outside of Native American Indians, America is
>populated by nothing BUT immigrants. It's how our country was
>founded. The mix is deep and there's much texture in our
>population.

This is self evident, but I think (I'm sure you'll corect me if
I'm wrong here) that the demography of the US has changed more
rapidly in the last 20 years due to large scale immigration
(legal and illegal) from the Latin America, than at any other
time this century. The only comparable change has possibly been
the large scale movement of Afro- Americans from the South to
northern cities, which has also produced the odd example of
racial "concern".

>You Brits may think we're a bit "off", but we know exactly where
>our heritage comes from. For us to have a problem with
>immigration would be the height of hypocracy.

I'll one day sit down and work out the exact mix of Scottish/
Irish/ Norman/ Cymric/ Saxon/ Hugenot/ Danish etc. blood is
coursing through the average Englishman! The "problem" with
immigration tends not to be the mix of people but the sudden
influx of a large number of people over a relatively short
period of time. This has happened with waves Irish and Jewish
immigrants in both Britain and the USA in the past. But as ebk
says we're getting way off target here.


--





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   Dec > Dec 5

                        Re: The 'Roswell Memo' Images

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 22:54:05 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 01:47:03 -0500
Subject: Re: The 'Roswell Memo' Images


>From: JBONJO@aol.com
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The 'Roswell Memo' Images
>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 12:21:11 EST

<snip>

>Bob,

>There are reported to be two of the Ramey office negatives (not
>certain they have originals) -- one of Ramey alone and the GRIM
>Ramey/Dubose ("GRD") -- at Bettman Archives in NYC. Perhaps
>Bettman would agree to loan one or both negs for legit scanning.

All,

Early on in this study the Bettman archive negs came up and I
remember "someone" on this list coming back to say that these
negs had been looked at and found to be 2nd or 3rd generation
copies from the originals and no text "at all" could be seen on
the "message".

Can this be confirmed again?, was it you Stanton?.

Neil.

-------------------------------------------------------

Neil Morris@Home.
Email:             Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk






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                                     Re:

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 18:15:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 10:03:44 -0500
Subject: Re:


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:24:00 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>Hello, list...

>Well, I'd love to give my input and opinion about the New MJ-12
>Documents....But I can't get into the damn website!

>Actually, I CAN. But I've been bumped off 6 times in a row and
>it's getting to be a REAL drag.

>I swear I've only been able to stay online for about 30 seconds
>before it throws me off and my Internet connection
>crashes...again and again.

>It only happens with that particular website.

>Has anyone else had this problem? Just wondering...

Roger,

I downloaded all(?) 16 .pdf docs from the site thursday evening.
Although it's only a total of 15.2 megs, it took me around 4
hours.

I downloaded documents 01.pdf thru 17.pdf

12.pdf does not exist.

15.2 megs can't be sent thru e-mail.  I would be glad to upload
this anywhere provided I have a web or ftp address.

My first impressions are that they are disappointing: to good to
be through, with some anachronisms and - what really makes me
think they are bogus - awkwardly cendored, i.e. the blacked-out
parts seemed to hide no un-pertinent information.






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: David RudiakDRudiak@aol.com
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 19:10:31 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 10:15:18 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: Peter Brookesmith - Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:11:16 -0500
>Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:32:13 -0500
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>No. The mechanism of retroviruses was first discovered by Howard
>Temin. He began work on the problem in 1960, and presented his
>findings to a virology conference at Duke U. in 1964. No one
>took any notice because the dogma at the time was that DNA *had*
>to precede RNA in the reproductive process. (Retroviruses have
>an RNA core and use a reverse transcriptase enzyme to construct
>DNA, which then generates more RNA.)

>David Baltimore at MIT independently replicated Temin's work,
>and they published a joint article in "Nature" (27 June 1970)
>describing their discoveries. It was only *after* this that the
>term "retrovirus" came into circulation. They didn't coin the
>term in the "Nature" piece. They did win the Nobel prize for
>their efforts. (This shows how closed-minded scientists are, of
>course, by the way.)

For once one of the Klass Klowns has it right.  The central
dogma of molecular biology had been:

        DNA ------------> mRNA ------------------>Proteins

Normal cells and DNA viruses used this same pathway.  The DNA
replicated itself, but the messenger RNA (mRNA) could only be
made from the DNA template.

Normal RNA viruses did not require DNA for replication.  They
carried an enzyme called RNA synthetase that enabled the viral
RNA to replicate itself sans DNA.  The viral RNA acted as its
own messenger RNA (mRNA) to produce the proteins to make more
viruses.

Retroviruses went opposite or retro to the central dogma.  They
made DNA from the viral RNA.  Once the DNA was made from viral
RNA, replication of more viral RNA and proteins could procede by
the usual pathway of the central dogma.

Temin in the early 60's was the first to demonstrate that this
class of RNA viruses did not reproduce in the usual way.
Experimentally he showed that viral reproduction could be
prevented by blocking the transcription of DNA into RNA.  That
wouldn't happen with normal RNA viruses.   (Remember, they don't
need DNA to reproduce.)  In 1964, he explained his experimental
results by hypothesizing that these RNA viruses first had to
make a DNA template (what he called a provirus).   That was
really when it began to dawn on people that what we now call
retroviruses existed.

Baltimore and Temin then discovered reverse transcriptase, the
viral enzyme that enabled these viruses to produce DNA from RNA.

I have the 2nd Edition of James Watson's (of Watson and Crick)
"Molecular Biology of the Gene," 1970.  In this classic book,
Watson summarizes virtually everything known about DNA and RNA
at the time, including the replication of DNA and RNA viruses.
But Watson says nothing about Temin and Baltimore's work which
demonstrated how certain RNA viruses violated the central dogma
of molecular biology.   There is nothing about proviruses,
reverse transcriptase, or retroviruses.  The term retrovirus to
describe this class of viruses wasn't introduced until sometime
in the 1970s.

Robert and Ryan Wood noted that a 1935 Science article uses the
term "retroactive virus."  I haven't had an opportunity to look
this up, but certainly the term would not have had the same
meaning as "retrovirus" does today.

And I don't care how many bloody Nazi Paperclip scientists the
military had at their disposal.  Their knowledge of genetics and
molecular biology would not have been 10 to 20 years ahead of
the best civilian science.  Watson and Crick didn't even
elucidate the structure of DNA until 1952, the same year this
document was supposedly written.

>So I guess we should now expect some card-carrying conspiracy
>theorist to explain how the gubmint knew about it all along but
>had to keep it under wraps, blah, blah. And in due course we'll
>probably hear how AIDS was back-engineered from alien body
>fluids... or strawberry icecream leavings...
>Praise the Lord and pass the needle, eh girls?

>best wishes
>Polymerase D. Mercksharpendome
>Antibody Politic

Unfortunately I currently have much the same take on this as our
Polymerase friend here.  The term "retrovirus" should not be
present in a 1952 document. Stating that medical technicians who
handled the bodies died of massive internal hemorrhaging within
a few hours was obviously intended to mean something like Ebola
virus at work.  But Ebola is not a retrovirus, and its
incubation and mortality time is measured in weeks, not hours.

HIV is the best-known retrovirus (of which not many are
currently known), but the technicians would not have died within
a few hours from HIV (which generally takes years to kill).
Whoever placed "retrovirus" and descriptions of a fast-killing
hemmoraghic virus in this "document" I believe intended to play
upon the suspicions of some that HIV and Ebola were not natural
but manufactured in a test tube as part of a biological warfare
program.

That viruses extracted from aliens could be so infectious in
humans would require the aliens to have some relationship
genetically to humans.  Some viruses like influenza can jump
evolutionary Class barriers (like from birds to mammals), but
generally viruses infect more narrowly.  E.g., infectivity of
viruses like Ebola and HIV is restricted to primates.  The
documents indicate the aliens were human or humanlike in
appearance, but then something (blacked out) apparently
indicated they were supposed to have arisen elsewhere.  That an
independently evolved organism could harbor viruses that would
infect humans so easily seems remote.   It would be like plant
or bacterial viruses being lethal to humans.  It doesn't happen.
Viruses are not living organisms and are totally dependent on
their hosts for survival.  Viruses and their hosts necessarily
evolve together.  So there is no reason to suppose that an alien
virus would attack a human, _unless_ there was a close linkage
genetically.

My feeling is that mention of "retroviruses" is a poison pill,
an anachronism inserted into the document to deliberately
invalidate it and anything related to it.  For all we know, the
rest of this and related "MJ-12" documents could be100% genuine,
but one historically inaccurate detail like this taints
everything else.   It's an old counterintelligence trick.
Sometimes the best place to hide at least part of the truth is
in plain sight, but make sure some part of it gets discredited
down the line.  That calls all material into question.

The richness of other extremely obscure and otherwise accurate
historical detail in these various papers as verified by the
Woods (and also Stanton Friedman) suggests  that hoaxing these
documents may have been well beyond the capabilities of private
individuals.  Hoaxing of this magnitude would require an inside
job.  Only intelligence agencies with ready access to period
classified material could likely pull it off.

The next question to ask is why would they would go through such
trouble to discredit the subject matter [alien reality, crashed
saucers, etc.].  The only answer that makes sense to me is that
the basic subject matter is in fact true.






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                  Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 18:15:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 19:47:47 -0500
Subject: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:24:00 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>Hello, list...

>Well, I'd love to give my input and opinion about the New MJ-12
>Documents....But I can't get into the damn website!

>Actually, I CAN. But I've been bumped off 6 times in a row and
>it's getting to be a REAL drag.

>I swear I've only been able to stay online for about 30 seconds
>before it throws me off and my Internet connection
>crashes...again and again.

>It only happens with that particular website.

>Has anyone else had this problem? Just wondering...

Roger,

I downloaded all(?) 16 .pdf docs from the site thursday evening.
Although it's only a total of 15.2 megs, it took me around 4
hours.

I downloaded documents 01.pdf thru 17.pdf

12.pdf does not exist.

15.2 megs can't be sent thru e-mail.  I would be glad to upload
this anywhere provided I have a web or ftp address.

My first impressions are that they are disappointing: to good to
be through, with some anachronisms and - what really makes me
think they are bogus - awkwardly cendored, i.e. the blacked-out
parts seemed to hide no un-pertinent information.





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   Dec > Dec 5

                       Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec

From: Jenifer Migneault <westy@endirect.qc.ca>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 19:45:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 19:58:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec

From: Susan Baldwin <sblee@stc.net>
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:45:52 -0500

>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:42:21 -0500
>Subject: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec
>From: Jenifer Migneault <westy@endirect.qc.ca>
>To: updates@globalserve.net

<snip>

>Although most of the time this list seems to be more wrapped up
>in how many aliens can dance on the head of a virtual pin, I for
>one would love to hear your description of the sighting if you
>please.

>A sighting can be troubling, and what you express is the same
>reaction a lot of us have had after seeing something so totally
>out of our usual frame of reference.

>I don't think anyone can answer your questions definitively, but
>quite a few here could point you in some excellent directions to
>do some more research.

>Susan B.


Hello and many many thanks to all of you who shared your
experiences with me... Let me now tell you about what we saw..
I'll try to keep it short!!

As we (my husband, our 2 kids and I) were getting back home, on
Highway 10 (between Montr=E8al and Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada), my
husband sees something moving in the sky. He asks me if I see
it. Since I was driving, I couldn't see anything because of the
lights....

So about 1 kilometre futher, he tells me "Look at that! Can you
see this?".. I saw it.. as a matter of fact, I couldn't miss
it.. it was so big!

We decided to stop along the highway.  It was 10h30 pm. 2 other
cars were already parked, just to look at it.. So we got out of
the car. There were 15 white lights (10 forming a semi-oval shape
and 5 forming a smaller one into the larger one) spinning on
itself. It was located right above us.

It was...so big! So very big!

It was also moving in a C shape...It was quiet... we couldn't
hear a thing coming out of it.

We saw it for 25 minutes. It was already there when we got on
the highway and somebody contacted a local group of ufologists
and told them he saw it at 11h30pm.

So, this is my story... Since that night, I had the pleasure of
dreaming about aliens every night.. ;0))))

Have a nice day, everybody!

Jenny ;0)
Le Westhaus
ICQ: 10720465
http://colba.net/~vladesco/westhaus.htm





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                              Re: The Challenge

From: Justin Naughton<emperor@picknowl.com.au
Date: Sat 5th Dec 1998  12:16 pm
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 20:05:20 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge

>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Challenge
>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:13:34 -0500

<snip>

>It seems to me that abductees are experiencing something
>of an altogether more 'powerful' nature (I'm sure some of them
>have experienced sleep paralysis, which is not uncommon, and
>can readily distinguish between it and a 'genuine' abduction
>experience).

<snip>

Hi list,

Sorry to hear of your child's complaint, Brian.

I think you've pointed to something important here.  As an
abduction experiencer, one of my initial problems lay in
seperating/distinguishing one kind of phenomenon from others. In
my first attempts at trying to understand memories I had of
encounters, I focussed mostly upon the nature of memory itself.
I examined myself for any possible agenda that would make me
prone to adopting such an unlikely fantasy, e.g..  did I want to
feel special, was I trying to divert my mind from my "real"
problems in life, was I the kind of person that wanted to be
included in any old looney toon adventure.  This was a difficult
process because I have had other unrelated "paranormal"
experiences and memories of experiences, such as sleep
paralysis, meeting someone in a dream before I met them in real
life, even a ghost encounter.

The irony is that these other experiences actually helped me to
continue to doubt the validity of my abduction-related memories.
I could throw it all into the same  "x-files" bag of interesting
memories probably resulting from an over-active imagination.
But, as events unfolded, this "putting it in the sideways
basket" attitude was doomed to collapse for me personally.

Members of my own family have, without any prompting whatsoever,
indicated to me that they are aware of whatever happened in the
past that has led to me having abduction-related experiences.
This happened in a synchronistic way;  information just came out
inadvertently during conversations, and no I don't think I
subconsciously led the conversation there.

The point I'm trying to make is:

Perhaps Carl Sagan said that "extraordinary claims call for
extraordinary evidence" (I think someone has already
acknowledged that extraordinary axioms require extraordinary
foundations.), but the data at hand includes testimony that the
data itself is one of the "battlefields" between experiencers
and that which they are experiencing.  In other words, we need a
data collection/verification system that is itself extraordinary
enough to overcome the fact (?) that the evidence at hand stands
outside of modes of verification and validation obtainable by
use of contemporary scientific investigative methodology.
Current methods are helpful in eliminating false hypotheses
(thank God!), but perhaps, at this stage, are insufficient to
the task of being able to ever grasp the actual nature of what
is being experienced.

The problem is that, if the experiencers are in fact correct,
the complacency of relying solely upon empirical data leads
nowhere but to a smug sense of satisfaction.  (The scene in Eric
the Viking comes to mind where the sacred island is sinking and
the leaders remain in denial. I'm sure that people suffering
from autism suffer similar kinds of pain.)

If the experiencers are correct, empirical science itself is
what ought to be justifying its position.  I throw the Challenge
right back where it came from.

Regards,

Justin (newbie)





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                              Re: 'Phone Noise'

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 21:51:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 20:07:01 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:01:04 PST
>Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:53:53 -0500
>Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'

Previously, I had suggested:

>>Seriously, considering how new the Internet is (relative to UFO
>>abductions) I wonder if "they" also monitor E-mail and would try
>>to interfere? An interesting test would be a simultaneous oral
>>conversation on the phone and typed conversation via E-mail or
>>live discussion chat room on the Internet.

Leanne offered:

>Have you missed all the postings on _Echelon_? If so, do a
>search and see what you missed on the monitoring of
>communications.

I know of what you speak. Actually, I assumed (perhaps
incorrectly) that the previous reference to "they" meant ET's
listening in. After all, we already know the government is
listening! ;-)

Maybe "they" are having trouble learning how to type or use a
modem!

I once was talking to an abductee and he told me that kduj
voaoanfviodiuaaanfvoaanaodi a oadfi # fmnaoarenaldfaaal alfgk
akfaifanfadkdfjaaaxa llalalssdkfika85479fnad09fjqw43 ;aadf
ladfAf and then the space craft lifted off and was never seen
again.

Someone should seriously look into this.....

Later,
Roger Evans





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                                My Sightings

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 23:01:08 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 20:10:37 -0500
Subject: My Sightings


Hi list,

Though I'd share my UFO sightings with you:

About a year ago, my wife, the kids and I were driving back from
Exeter NH, where Jenn's (my wife) grandmother lives. We weren't
too far from home when I noticed some lights off to the right
side of the road over some trees. I slowed down a bit, and
pointed them out to Jenn. The lights were right over some trees
about three hundred yards distant. They were bright red and
green. Jenn said "I think it's a tower!", and I said, "I don't
think so." I said "Well, let's stop and see then!" and my wife
about lost her mind. She said "@@!&#@@!!" followed by "You're
not stopping this car, are you crazy??!!"

It was apparent to me at that point that she didn't buy the
tower explanation either. And, I've dragged her to enough
airports and airshows for her to know what aircraft and
helicopters look like in everything from broad daylight to
snowstorms. She instictively knew this wasn't those, and so did
I. First of all, there are no green aviation lights anywhere on
a plane except the right wingtip.. Second, this was a group of
very randomly arranged, very bright lights, almost like a
welder's arc. They were stationary over the trees. Third, if it
was a helicopter, it was dangerously close to the treetops, and
chopper pilots don't do that unless they MUST (right, Kevin?).

Unfortunately, I didn't have time to observe any more details.
In hindsight, I should have stopped the car and got out,
regardless of my wife's reaction. I may have blown a once in a
lifetime opportunity for a CE. I can see my wife acting crazy
any day.

The only other definitive sighting I had was while stargazing
about two years ago. I was alone (unfortunately). During my
normal scan, I suddenly noticed a bright star where I was sure
none had been moments before. I looked at it for a long while to
be sure that it was a star, then decided that I had just never
noticed it before. I continued stargazing for a couple minutes
more. I looked back again in time to see it suddenly move south
and disappear. It just "went out". Satellites, airplanes and
helicopters are all easily ruled out. Whatever it was was very
high, very still (at first) and apparently either very quiet or
too high to be heard. I don't know what it was, but I know what
it wasn't.

Greg





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                Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 20:26:16 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 20:15:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc


Dear Jakes: Please see below!


>Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:00:07 +0200
>From: Jakes Louw <LOUWJE@telkom.co.za>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc

>>UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>12/04 2:34 AM
>>From: Moderator, UFO UpDates

>> A superior form of colonizing will have to be conceived,
>>that could be a kind of tutelage, possibly through the tacit
>>approval of the United Nations. But would the United Nations
>>legally have the right of allowing such tutelage over us in such
>>a fashion?

>Just a question to somebody who knows their history:

>When was the UN formed? As far as I remember, the UN was created
>from the concept of the League of Nations, but I can't remember
>when....

Jakes:  It depends on the interpretation.

The term 'United Nations' was first coined by president F. D.
Roosevelt in 1941 to denote the countries then fighting against
the axis powers.

The same term was first used officially in on 01JAN42 when 26
countries joined in the 'Declaration of the United Nations',
stipulating that no nation would make a separate peace with the
Axis among other things.

At the Dumbarton Oaks Conference (Aug-Oct 1944), China, Great
Britain, the USA and the USSR, drafted proposals for a formal UN
Charter, to replace the defunct League of Nations.

The actual founding conference was held in San Francisco (an
important commercial center located 25 miles north of Redwood
City, Calif.) between April and June of 1945. Their official
charter was ratified on October 24, of the same year 1945.

The first General Assembly was held in London in January 1946.
Late in 1946 the UN accepted a gift of land in New York, and set
up shop there. The donor was none other than John D. Rockefeller
jr.


Best regards from:

- Larry (more than you really wanted to know but what the heck)
Hatch

PS:  I ripped off all this wisdom from a set of little blue
encyclopediae, $3.50 per volume, purchased from a large
supermarket chain here in the late 1970s.







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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Ed Fouche <fouche@connecti.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 22:29:57 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 20:25:30 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:41:55 -0500 (EST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:27:19 -0500
>>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

<snip>

>>Did we know about retro-virii in 1952?  Anyway, this section
>>combined with the following report on p. 9:

>Terry,

>Linda Howe told me about these documents last month.  She had
>gotten advance copies of them and read sections to me.

>I was immediately wary when I heard that reference to
>retrovirus.

>No, we didn't know about retrovirus then.  The term was coined
>in the late 70s.  We didn't know about them in the late 60s when

>I was briefly involved in BW.

>I think these documents are bogus.


Under the 'Authentication' section of the Web page is an
explanation of the term 'retrovirus' and how it had appeared
used in a periodical article in that period.

Ed Fouche
Author of 'Alien Rapture'


>>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:27:19 -0500
>>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

<snip>

>>Did we know about retro-virii in 1952?  Anyway, this section
>>combined with the following report on p. 9:

>Terry,

>Linda Howe told me about these documents last month.  She had
>gotten advance copies of them and read sections to me.

>I was immediately wary when I heard that reference to
>retrovirus.

>No, we didn't know about retrovirus then.  The term was coined
>in the late 70s.  We didn't know about them in the late 60s when

>I was briefly involved in BW.

>I think these documents are bogus.


Under the 'Authentication' section of the Web page is an
explanation of the term 'retrovirus' and how it had appeared
used in a periodical article in that period.

Ed Fouche
Author of 'Alien Rapture'





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                              Re: 'Phone Noise'

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 20:41:11 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 20:39:20 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'


Dear Leanne, Roger and Dianne: Please see below:


>Fm: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>Re: 'Phone Noise'
>Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:01:04 PST

>>Fm: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 21:34:52 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: 'Phone Noise'

>>>From: Diane Lovett <rambld@erols.com>
>>>Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:36:14 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'

>>Previously, Diane offered:

>>>I have had this type of noise, static, beeps, etc., on phone
>>>lines for many years now, when discussing ET and abduction
>>>topics with other abductees, researchers, etc.

>>>It has over the years effectively ended many such conversations.


<snip>

Personally, I believe that 99.999% of all telephone noise is
just that, noise.

Telephone tappers, the human variety, had noiseless techniques
dating back to the 1930s, if not sooner. For every
counter-measure, (voltage drop analysis for example) there was
a counter-counter measure ( e.g. inductive or capacitive
coupling, rather than a direct hard-wired tap.)

Now, we are faced with the possibility of some alien race,
perhaps thousands of years in advance our technology, who might
want to 'listen-in' from time to time.

If the reported performance of UFOs is any indication; nobody,
not the finest electrical engineer will have the slightest clue.

Unless, of course the aliens _want_ someone to know it, or
suspect it at least.  A not so subtle sort of intimidation? A
reminder to keep ones mouth shut perhaps?

Ah .. I speculate too much.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch






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                  Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 21:06:12 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 20:48:43 -0500
Subject: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 01:54:33 -0500

<snip>


>http://www.thewordistruth.org

>The site is eerie:

>"Login to The Truth

>Welcome to The Truth,
>a hypothesis of the unity of science,
>faith, and history.
>
>In exchange for the opportunity to read this free Internet
>book, I ask for your e-mail address. It will not be used
>for any commercial purpose."

No commercial purpose? That is even scarier than an email
spam list or the like.

Log in to 'The Truth'? It seems I've heard those words before.
Was it Pravda? No, I was raised Catholic, and had no Soviet
relatives.

There is obviously some spooky agenda here. I surf the net for
goofy sites sometimes. If they are interesting, funny...
whacko... insane enough, I send the URLs to some friends with a
good sense of humor. None of these have ever required my
personal email address before I could surf the site.

I can understand some crass commercial scam, even if I hate it.

But, someone offering to unify Faith and Science ( and history
to boot mind you! ) -- who wants my email address, is going
to have a long, long wait getting it.

I like Jan Aldrich's idea: Use a dummy/temporary/free
email address, if you are curious. I'm not even going to do
that, but hope others do, so we can all learn the nature of
_this_ murky little operation.


>They look like... undertakers.

Not even undertakers ask for your email address before they
will provide a price list or a catalog of services.

>I followed the links and, when I was asked for my email address,
>I gave:

>one@flewover.thecuckoos.nest

>That brought me to the Truth.

>God have mercy on us all... at least on me.


No arguments from me Serge, this one is really fishy.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

PS: Whatever else you do, do not email the site for
any reason [ say to leave comments ]

Ignore any plea to " Tell us what you think. "

If you do, your real address will appear in the header,
no matter what fake address you may type in. -LH







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                  Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 21:28:08 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 20:53:29 -0500
Subject: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

Dear Roger:

You have provided another clue to this mysterious website,
one which has possibly chilling undertones.   Please see below:


> From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
> Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:24:00 +0000
> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> Subject: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>
> Hello, list...
>
> Well, I'd love to give my input and opinion about the New MJ-12
> Documents....But I can't get into the damn website!
>
> Actually, I CAN. But I've been bumped off 6 times in a row and
> it's getting to be a REAL drag.
>
> I swear I've only been able to stay online for about 30 seconds
> before it throws me off ..

> and my Internet connection crashes...again and again.

Roger:   Besides the highly unusual demand for your personal
email address, itself highly suspect,  I have never heard of a
website that could literally crash your connection with your
Internet Service Provider [ ISP ].

For what little I know,  there are only three 'elements' who can
rightfully or wrongfully screw up your ISP connection:

a)  You yourself,  your computer, the software and bugs all
running at your end.   All quite common.

b)  The connection between a above, and your ISP.   i.e.
the phone line, power outages -- you name it.

c)  Your ISP  [ most common.]


IF one single website consistently crashes your connection,
despite all the firewalls and other protections built into Java,
HTML language and so forth,  and this is not mere coincidence,
then you have signalled the possible presence of virus-like
intrusions into your system and no doubt many others.


> It only happens with that particular website.

Scary.

> Has anyone else had this problem? Just wondering...

I haven't.     I won't even try to get into that site.   I have
too much to lose.

I suppose this is a good time to remind everyone to back-up
your drives.     Buy a zip-drive .. a tape drive .. a second or
third hard drive [ idiotically cheap! ]  fill your closet with
floppies if you must.   But get some good backup hardware and
software.

 SAVE all your hard work before you lose it to this or some
other 'problem'.


> Feeling a little testy in Houston,
> Roger Evans

I can't much blame you Roger.

-  Larry Hatch







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                           Re: Incident at Exeter?

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 03:20:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:02:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Incident at Exeter?

>Re: Incident at Exeter?
>
>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:05:52 -0400
>Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:16:32 -0500
>Subject: Re: Incident at Exeter?


>>From: Robert Earle <Robert_Earle/UT/ASP@autolivasp.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:39:15 -0700
>>Subject: Incident at Exeter?

>>If you have any information that you can post to the list about
>>this incident it would be greatly appreciated.  At the current
>>time I have only very limited internet access (Mostly email) and
>>rely on the lists for much of the information I get from
>>cyberspace.

>>Thanks in advance.

>>R. Earle


>How about trying John Fuller's book 'Incident at Exeter'? Also
>Peter Geremia in Portsmouth NH has done a lot of digging.
>Fuller's papers are at Boston University Library Archives.
>Advance appointments are required.

>Stan Friedman

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

JC:   Hello Robert & Stan,

Save this for when you finally get web browser access.
You might also try the following URL:
http://www.ufomind.com/place/us/nh/exeter/

It contains some of the following:

Dr. J. Allen Hynek's analysis of the case:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/jan/m26-010.shtml
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/jan/m26-008.shtml

and if you read this:
http://php.indiana.edu/~lrobins/howiextr.htm
Then please make sure to read this as well:
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/rob.rebut.html

and the following Loy Lawhon's comments on Philip Klass'
"Ball Lightning" explanation for the event:
http://ufos.miningco.com/library/weekly/aa090997.htm


Respectfully,
Jerry Cohen

 Author: Oberg/Cooper rebuttals
Website: http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/
UFOmind: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/people/c/cohen/







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                           UFO Humor or UFO Hummer

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 03:58:17 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:06:10 -0500
Subject: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer


Dear EBK and company....

Sometimes UPDATES gets a little too serious.  Sometimes.

Sometimes posts get a little out of hand.  Sometimes.

Sometimes the guys get a little up tight. Sometimes.

I was wondering if you would be interested in a monthly funny
pages on UPDATES.  On the assumption that a good yuk at
ourselves is good for the arteries and also, helps defuse some
of the bombs waiting to go off out there, perhaps your readers
would have something to "look forward to" in the form of ,say,
"Dr. Gesundt's rants or something along those loins.... I mean
lines.

I know it's good for me.  I think it might be good for them.

What do you think?  If yes, then I will send along some ideas...
your call, my nickel... nickle... whatever.

Dr. Gesundt,
Canal Street's Only UFO Researcher

Oh, and BTW, tell me if you don't know the story about the real
Canal Street in NYC...

Jim





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                         Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 03:59:10 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:14:03 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer


In a message dated 12/5/98 3:58:17 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Jsmortell writes:

>Dear EBK and company....

>Sometimes UPDATES gets a little too serious.  Sometimes.

>Sometimes posts get a little out of hand.  Sometimes.

>Sometimes the guys get a little up tight. Sometimes.

>I was wondering if you would be interested in a monthly
>funny pages on UPDATES.

<snip>

Of course I'm serious....!





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                  Re: UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking!

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 04:43:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:50:14 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking!


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Date: Thu, 26 Nov 98 11:52:23 PST
>Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:14:49 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking!

>>Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 07:57:03 -0600
>>From: Loy Pressley <lkpres@koyote.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking!

>>>Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 02:01:11 -0500
>>>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking!

>>>The 1950s and UFOs;
>>>Ersatz Exposure in the Standard Literature!

>><snip>

>>>Anyway, in his capacity as 'expert' Hynek cranked out nonsense
>>>'explanations' of solid UFOs that had been reported by good
>>>professionals, who were thus held up to ridicule.  What can we
>>>call this besides a form of disingenuous betrayal?

<snip

>I knew Allen Hynek fairly over the last 10 years of his life.
>He was not an "intelligence agent," and he was, indeed, a kindly
>old gent  who, with pipe in hand, had the interests of us all at
>heart.  He also had a wonderful sense of humor.

>He had his faults, as all of us do.  I think Jim McDonald was
>right to criticize him for taking so long to challenge Blue
>Book.  But in the end what counts is that he did it, with great
>personal courage and at considerable professional cost.

>I feel myself honored to have known the man.
>
>Jerry Clark

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

JC:   (To) Jerry, (Clark)
)... so out of context readers don't get confused),


Thanks Jerry! You've just added a personal confirmation to the
research I've done for the last 30 years regarding Dr. Hynek. I
always felt what you said was correct.

In addition to what Hynek wrote in his UFO Experience, I offer
the following to anyone who is wondering who is correct here:

Please note: The Air Force did not always use Hynek's analyses
when they released their explanations regarding UFOs.


10/10/66 Newsweek (Hynek breaks with the Air Force)
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/nwswk_66_hynek.html

Summary of 12/17/66 Saturday Evening Post Article
(Hynek's own words concerning the above)
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/sepost_sum_66_Hynek.html

The complete text of the previous S.E. Post Article
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/sepost_66_hynek.1.html
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/sepost_66_hynek.2.html

4/97 letter I wrote to Ed Komarek concerning this topic
containing various URL links that give an overview of
Hynek's career, amongst other things:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/apr/m15-009.shtml

Respectfully,
Jerry Cohen

 Author: Oberg/Cooper rebuttals
Website: http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/
UFOmind: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/people/c/cohen/






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   Dec > Dec 5

                       Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 01:33:53 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:56:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....
>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:11:28 -0500

>>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 23:11:46 -0600
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....

>>>It would be lovely if all this were documented. Abductees (and
>>>abduction researchers) so often tell stories like these -- but
>>>I've never seen medical records that would prove the stories
>>>true.

>>Well, Greg, his story is documented...that is, I have a
>>transcript which I hand typed from the Video interviews I did
>>with this man.

>>No, I don't have any medical records.  The man would not allow
>>me to dig into his medical history...

>>He told me he was examined by the Vetrans Administration
>>Hospital Doctors, and he was afraid I would cause him to loose
>>his Military Pension if I got to asking to many questions and
>>requesting copies of his tests from the doctors.

>>How to you argue with a person you are interviewing when you are
>>talking about his money???

>I completely agree. You have to respect the privacy of people
>you work with.

<snip>

>Greg Sandow

Michael, here are my 1.5 cents worth.

I don't know how authentic this case may be, but I don't think
obtaining his medical records should cause problems for him. I'm
a disabled veteran on pension.

It is easy for a veteran to request copies of his medical
records from the medical records department. The pension
compensation department won't get a record of it. There may be
particulars to his VA case I am not aware of, but usually such
actions have no affect on medical pensions. Once granted, they
are not taken away - even for alien experiences. If he is
applying for compensation by saying the paralysis was service
connected (caused when he was in the military), a claim of alien
abduction would be highly questioned by the compensation board.
If he is not claiming such, obtaining records or questioning
doctors should not be a problem for him. No one has to tell the
doctors you believe his injuries were caused by alien abduction.
For that you need evidence outside of doctors or the VA.

Here's a thought - perhaps I'll inquire to the VA whether any
veteran ever claimed service connected disability for the
results of UFO or alien activities?

Joshman





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                              Length of Quotes

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 01:47:47 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 21:57:32 -0500
Subject: Length of Quotes

Hello fellow researchers:

I just returned online after being away for a week or so. I just plowed
through all the posts from this list that had piled up. An arduous endeavor.
There were lots of interesting posts, especially three threads with many
messages per thread. I did a lot of reading, scanning, and deleting.

I'm wondering if we can do some snipping on a reply when all the quote is not
essential to be repeated. Some of those threads build up enormous trains of
quotes. A lot of scrolling is needed to get down to the new message. Some
messages in the threads I would instantly delete just because I didn't want
to chase the repeated train to finally find the body of the message.

Joshman





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                  Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: William Sawers <wsawers@ihug.co.nz>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 23:02:33 +1300
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:17:32 -0500
Subject: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:24:00 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>Hello, list...

>Well, I'd love to give my input and opinion about the New MJ-12
>Documents....But I can't get into the damn website!

>Actually, I CAN. But I've been bumped off 6 times in a row and
>it's getting to be a REAL drag.

>I swear I've only been able to stay online for about 30 seconds
>before it throws me off and my Internet connection
>crashes...again and again.


It maybe just your ISP or that the site _is_ very busy...I've
been bumped a couple of times but still find it quite
accessable. I am usually on though when most Americans
are/should be asleep. :-)

I find it a most compelling site. It also seems to follow the
lines of "Corsos" book, so far.

One thing I would like to ask the list....

"When did the term 'Have a nice day' appear?"

In Corsos book he mentions a CIA (?) agent saying this. Not sure
of the year (...can look it up), but it does appear to be a
little early for this term to be used? Just a small point but
it bugs me just the same!

William (NZ)

"The Truth is .....Hidden"






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 05:23:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:22:35 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 12:08:08 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>Some of these documents aren't all that new, but not widely
>distributed.

>If anyone can find out the provenance of these documents, that
>would be of interest.  They provide a lot of detail that can
>possibly be checked against other records to point out
>anachronisms (such as those alleged above) or other
>incongruities.

>The web site has a press contact, Melina Mattei
>(mmattei@earthlink.net), and she might be able to provide
>additional information.  The web page is promoting an on-line
>book, and the MJ-12 documents were apparently an addition placed
>on the site in November.


These documents were obtained by Dr. Robert Wood and his son,
Ryan. They gave the first public presentation on these documents
announcing them to the public at the Omega Communications
conference, The UFO Experience,  held in Connecticut back on
October 11, 1998.  They gave an approximately hour long
presentation on the documents at that conference.  A video tape
of that presentation can be obtained from John White of Omega
Communications as all presentations of that conference were
video taped.

I did have the opportunity briefly, before the presentation, to
review several of the documents.  Dr. Wood indicated that he and
his son, Ryan had been researching the documents for an extended
period with the assistance of others out in California.  Why and
how the documents have been presented through this web site is
unknown to me.  At the time of the conference Dr. Wood had
indicated that he and his son would be publishing a book on the
documents; whether or not the book associated with this web site
is the book he mentioned, I do not know.  Whether or not the
Woods released the documents for distribution through this web
site I do not know.

While the documents are interesting, their provenance is not as
far as I was told to be from any officially traceable source.
The source of the documents was described to me; however, as I
do not have first hand information on this it is not my place to
discuss that issue.  I think that should and probably made clear
in a wider public way by Dr. Wood.  It's colorful but in the end
one must ask oneself what does it really mean.

These documents are by Germann's information classification:

"Class IX:  Written accounts, documents, photos, etc., including
so-called "secret documents," without direct attribution.  Much
of the new wave of UFO material falls here.  Evaluation depends
on the credibility of the visible source, support from other
sources and investigator experience.

No doubt they will be the instigator of endless posts and
cross-posts.  Perhaps even much sound and fury signifying
nothing. Time will tell.

Gary






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                   The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 06:22:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:28:48 -0500
Subject: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


A few points of information for the readers of this list.

Occasionally things appear on this list that resemble classical
propaganda.  I will use a recent example to illuminate the
possible usage of these techniques in the UFO arena.

One who uses propaganda does not confront the issues on their
merits. What they attempt to do is provide a diversion from the
central core of the issue through the sowing of doubt and
personal attacks, thereby avoiding confronting important issues
directly. Such propaganda succeeds with most people. However the
readers of this list are not "most people!"

Good propaganda can disrupt and debase effective research among
any group of independent investigators.  Whenever one sees the
consistent use of these techniques over time, one is justified
in considering that the user of such techniques is consciously
doing so.

Recent discussion on this list has circulated around the first
President of the Center For UFO Studies, Sherm Larsen.  The fact
of the matter is that Sherm Larsen was a member of the U.S. Army
Counterintelligence Corp during WWII and the CIC was hip deep in
UFO investigation in the early 1950s.

For readers unaware of the history of this era,
I would just like to add that during W.W.II
Leonard Stringfield was himself an intelligence
officer in the 5th Air Force.  Let's listen to him
reminisce about his friend Sherm Larsen.

My quotation is from:  Leonard H. Stringfield, "Situation Red",
p. 207 Fawcett Crest Books, 1977.

Begin quotation:
---------------

When I visited the Center for UFO Studies in February 1975, I
spent an evening with Sherm Larsen, president of the
organization....

  { Here I have edited out a fascinating story not pertinent to
    the current discussion. - GA }

...Part II of the mystery: A close friend of Larsen's, during
Larsen's wartime years in the Counter Intelligence Corps, was an
attorney who worked for the government. In their chummy days,
his friend never revealed the confidential nature of his job,
even though he was aware of Larsen's work in the CIC.

By happenchance, Larsen, during a recent social get together
with his old friend, recalling his World War II experiences in
the CIC, learned to his surprise that his friend served in the
Security Intelligence Corps during the war. He also learned that
his friend's SIC office in Chicago was in the Museum of Science
and Industry!

End quotation. -------------

After one of my recent messages concerning Mr. Larsen a critique
appeared that could be considered as exhibiting the
propagandists style.

In the following exposition sections of my initial post will be
prefixed by GA>; sections of the other message will be prefixed
with *>

GA> Who started a brand new UFO organization, right after NICAP
    was destroyed from within by CIA psychological warfare
    operatives, and put a former Counterintelligence Corps (CIC)
    member, Sherm Larson, in charge of the new organization, CUFOS?


Begin other message in its entirety, quote:
------
*> This is not just silly, it's downright hilarious.
   Sherm Larsen (not Larson) as secret agent?  Pardon me
   while I pick myself off the floor.  I knew Sherm very well.
   My ex-wife (at the time my fiance)worked as his secretary
   for several years, and I'd see him several times a week.
   _Nobody_ who knew him would _ever_ mistake him for
   anything other than what he was: a hard-working, unimaginative
   George F. Babbitt type of average intelligence and conventional
   views, an insurance agent by profession and a living
   personification of every stereotype associated with that
   calling. (No offense to you insurance agents out there;
   yours is a perfectly honorable occupation, but you
   know what I mean probably better than anybody.)

   Sherm had practical managerial skills, of which Allen
   possessed zero,and these skills did much to keep CUFOS
   functioning from day to day. Allen didn't put him "in charge."
   He wanted to start a UFO organization but didn't want to
   go through the hassle of incorporation procedures.
   Sherm suggested to him that he simply take over Public
   Education Group (PEG), a local flying-saucer discussion
   group Sherm had led for some years in the Chicago area;
   Allen agreed, insisting on the name Center for  UFO Studies.
   The unremarkable story, which no one  who was there at the
   time disputes, is related by Larsen in "The Founding of CUFOS,"
   IUR, May/June 1986, pp. 13-14.  Sherm had nothing to do with
   the setting of CUFOS policy, except in his capacity
   as a board member, where (with two exceptions, one noted below;
   the other, which involved a personality conflict, is
   irrelevant here) he tended to vote with everybody else.

   Sherm left CUFOS after Allen's death.  The rest of us board
   members, mostly younger men than Sherm (who was in his 70s,
   and retired from his day job), wanted to move headquarters
   from a strip mall in out-of-the-way Glenview into a more
   accessible office on Chicago's north side.  Sherm wanted to
   stay in Glenview, which was also where he lived. When Sherm was
   outvoted, he resigned and thereafter had no contact with the
   organization.  We didn't even know he'd died till several
   weeks after it happened.

   Sherm was basically a good guy, and he deserves credit for
   his contributions, not censure on the fantastic and absurd
   grounds that he was some kind of double agent.

-------
end other message quote.

Now let's deconstruct the above "message" and see what one might
learn about the possible use of propaganda techniques.  My
commentary with be preceded by a GA>.

*>   This is not just silly, it's downright hilarious.

GA>  One of the common tools of the propagandist is to
     begin with disparaging remarks thereby setting the
     proper tone, that is the original message is to be
     attacked at an emotional level right at the  beginning.

 >*   Sherm Larsen (not Larson) as secret agent?
      Pardon me while I pick  myself off the floor.

 GA>  One of the typical tools of the propaganda method
      following the emotional appeal is to point out one
      or two minor errors in the original message thereby
      attempting to establish a pattern or error in the
      original message.  Another common technique is to
      attempt to establish a spurious argument
      "the straw man", that is to impute to the original
      sender an argument that he did not make.  In this case
      the term "secret agent" is used with reference to
      Mr. Larsen.   A statement that did not appear in the
      original message. I said Sherm was a former member of
      the Counterintelligence Corp (CIC).  Now the CIC is not
      and has not ever been a secret organization.  Any
      historian of the intelligence services of the United
      States knows this and moreover it is even listed in
      the Encyclopedia Britannica, look for yourself.

      Here we see a typical technique of the propagandist
      the use of the "straw man" to avoid a substantitative
      point, that is that Mr. Larsen was a former member of
      the CIC.  A fact not know to some of his closest
      associates.   However, in the case of Mr. Larsen as
      we shall see below the jump to the conclusion that
      Mr. Larsen was some kind of operative vis a vis. the
      UFO community may well be justified.

*>    I knew Sherm very well.

GA>   Here the propagandist attempts to assert superior
      authority through association.  The spuriousness
      of this technique is shown above in Stringfield's
      quote where Stringfield matter of factly reports
      that Larsen was in the CIC.  What is most interesting
      is Stringfield's reporting of Larsen's relationship
      with his friend the lawyer, that Larsen never knew
      his own friend was in the Security Intelligence Corp
      the (SIC).  Here we see the fact that former
      intelligence operatives rarely reveal their past
      associations except  to very close friends or other
      veterans of the intelligence profession.

 *>:  My ex-wife (at the time my fiance) worked as his
      secretary for several years, and I'd see him several
      times a week.

 GA>  Once again we have an appeal to superior authority
      through association.  One of the principal methods
      of propaganda is repetition.  If a spurious argument
      is repeated often enough the hope is that people will
      believe it.

 *>:  _Nobody_ who knew him would _ever_ mistake him for
      anything other than what he was: a hard-working,
      unimaginative George F. Babbitt type of average
      intelligence and conventional views, an insurance
      agent by profession and a living personification
      of every stereotype associated with that calling.
      (No offense to you insurance agents out there;
      yours is a perfectly honorable occupation,
      but you know what I mean probably better than anybody.)


 GA>  Here the repetition of the spurious argument amounts
      to near incoherence.  That is, what better cover is could
      there be for an operative or agent in place than as a
      staid, solid, middle-class professional, especially in
      a white, middle-class field like ufology.

      Those who would believe that intelligence operatives
      in any way resemble James Bond are seriously deficient
      in their tradecraft.

 *>:  Sherm had practical managerial skills, of which Allen
      possessed zero, and these skills did much to keep CUFOS
      functioning from day to day.

 GA>  An excellent point because as Vallee shows in Forbidden
      Science Hynek was not a detail person at all.  For
      instance Vallee notes that Hynek's UFO files were a mess.
      For that reason Hynek would have had to been paired with
      a staid, stolid professional able to perform the day to
      day tasks required.

 *>:  Allen didn't put him "in charge." He wanted to start a UFO
      organization but didn't want to go through the hassle of
      incorporation procedures. Sherm suggested to him that he
      simply take over Public Education Group (PEG), a local
      flying-saucer discussion group Sherm had led for some years
      in the Chicago area; Allen agreed, insisting on the name
      Center for UFO Studies.

 GA>  Here a possible propagandist tool is seen full blown.
      The use of a fact as the opposite of its true import.
      That is, how interesting that Mr. Larsen, former CIC
      operative, had been running a UFO organization for several
      years in the Chicago area.  This could be viewed, in
      light of the long association of the CIC with UFO
      investigation, as establishing an agent in place, waiting
      for the opportunity to become truly useful.

      This is routine domestic intelligence security procedure
      as should be well known to every American conversant with
      recent history.  The  opportunity for usefulness appeared
      after Dr. Hynek "cooled" for several years following the
      dreaded "swamp gas" incident which had ended his credibility
      in the UFO arena.  But suddenly in 1973 a new Hynek, not
      unlike the "new" Nixon, arose from the ashes of Michigan
      at the head of a new "independent" organization dedicated
      to the scientific investigation of the UFO.  This could
      be viewed as the classical example of the redeployment
      of an intelligence asset.

 *>:  The unremarkable story, which no one who was there at the
      time disputes, is related by Larsen in "The Founding of
      CUFOS," IUR, May/June 1986, pp. 13-14.  Sherm had nothing
      to do with the setting of CUFOS policy, except in his
      capacity as a board member, where (with two exceptions,
      one noted below; the other, which involved a personality
      conflict, is irrelevant here) he tended to vote with
      everybody else.

 GA>  Once again our possible propagandist has advanced a
      diversionary argument.  Yes it is an unremarkable story.
      Why shouldn't it be.  If Messrs. Larsen and Hynek were
      acting as operatives in establishing CUFOS they hardly
      would have bought space in the Chicago Tribune advertising
      that fact.  Is that they way it would have been done,
      hardly.  The original message said nothing about CUFOs
      policy.  This could be viewed as a distraction.

 *>C: Sherm left CUFOS after Allen's death.  The rest of us board
      members, mostly younger men than Sherm (who was in his 70s,
      and retired from his day job), wanted to move headquarters
      from a strip mall in out-of-the-way Glenview into a more
      accessible office on Chicago's north side.  Sherm wanted
      to stay in Glenview, which was also where he lived.
      When Sherm was outvoted, he resigned and thereafter had no
      contact with the organization.   We didn't even know
      he'd died till several weeks after it happened.

 GA>  The most interesting aspect of the above section is
      the possible information that when one member of the team
      died the other one soon found reason to move along.
      That is, if the two men had been paired like horses in a
      team then one was of little use without the other,
      especially considering their ages.  It is a fact that in
      many intelligence operations when the visible operative is
      incapacitated or dies, the control agent is retired from
      the operation.  Sometimes old agents don't go out in a
      blaze of glory.  They get to retire too.

 *>:  Sherm was basically a good guy, and he deserves credit for
      his contributions, not censure on the fantastic and absurd
      grounds that he was some kind of double agent.

 GA:   One of the things that our propagandist is implying is that
       the original message impugned the personal integrity of
       J. Allen Hynek and Sherm Larsen.  This issue though of
       some import is one that is open to interpretation.
       That is, in the modern world J. Allen Hynek and Sherm
       Larsen were possibly simply doing their job and completely
       loyal to their immediate employers and to their country.
       The possibility that to some people this loyalty was
       misplaced is simply not relevant to this discussion.
       Once again intelligence professionals do their jobs
       and do them well no matter their personal feelings.
       While it may be true that the morality of the possible
       actions above is questionable it is of no consequence
       in the world of intelligence and counterintelligence.


 Let me summarize the typical tools of the propagandist:

 - Diversionary remarks
 - Trivializing remarks
 - Disparaging remarks
 - Emotion laden arguments
 - Elevation of minor errors, e.g. typos
 - Assertion of superior authority
 - Introduction of incoherent material to confuse an issue
 - Personal attack
 - Repetition of spurious argument
 - The erection and destruction of "straw men"
 - Use of a fact as its opposite

Readers of this list must unfortunately be constantly on their
guard against such attacks as they seem to be so prevalent as
the above exposition has shown.

Our putative propagandist concludes his message with further
disparaging remarks about the sender, employing the tool of
repetition.  The original sender was advised to do some soul
searching apparently with the goal of reform in mind.  However
it might be better that our propagandist brush up on his
tradecraft with a refresher course as his skills seem to have
eroded recently.

 Gary Alevy





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                        Re: The 'Roswell Memo' Images

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 07:20:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:36:41 -0500
Subject: Re: The 'Roswell Memo' Images


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 12:21:11 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The 'Roswell Memo' Images

>There are reported to be two of the Ramey office negatives (not
>certain they have originals) -- one of Ramey alone and the GRIM
>Ramey/Dubose ("GRD") -- at Bettman Archives in NYC. Perhaps
>Bettman would agree to loan one or both negs for legit scanning.
>The Ramey Message is held prominently in GRD but I haven't seen
>a closeup and do not know whether this is the front or back side
>of the message exposed to the camera.


I spoke with the guy in charge at Bettman many weeks ago. He
stated that their negative doesn't show any  words on the memo.
Only the backside is in view.

Stan Friedman





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                    Re: Brisbane Sightings UFOICQ 2.12.98

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 21:40:41 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:41:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Brisbane Sightings UFOICQ 2.12.98


The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
tkbnetw@fan.net.au
*************************************************************
UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number
                       1800 77 22 88 Free Call
*************************************************************

Sighting Report UFOICQ Brisbane Australia

Brisbane: Clayfield
Troy S,
Source: UFOICQ. NL (U/I) Time 7.30pm 2.12.98

Bright white light 4 times the size of Venus, fading to a small
dot something like a plane, then it took off in a straight line
across the horizon faster than any plane "he had ever seen
before".


Brisbane: Hill End
Peter Mac & 5 Witnesses
Source: UFOICQ. NL. (U/I) Time 11.55pm 2.12.98

A flaming orange ball of light traveling from East to West
traveling around the same speed of plane, if  looking at the
size he states it was around 30meters? as an estimate. It went
over the top of MT Coot-tha and disappeared, he said someone
else must have seen it.


East Brisbane
Source: UFOICQ (U/I) 3rd 12.98 Mid afternoon

Lady recounts an experience to Robert Frola.

She states some unusual events happened on the night of the 2nd
12.98. Her boy friend went to pack his books for collage ready
for the next day  at 10.30pm. When he came back into the bedroom
found the  clock to read 12.25am, miss, said, she got up to
check  the other  clock which was in the kitchen, it to read the
same time 12.25am.  The clocks had gained 1.5 hours since going
to pack his bag, which  she states is a long time to pack a few
books.

Regards Diane Harrison & Robert Frola
UFOICQ Brisbane Australia





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                              Re: The Challenge

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:20:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 23:00:59 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


>From: Diane Lovett <rambld@erols.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Challenge
>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:44:39 -0500

>For me this has been the hardest part of the whole experience,
>and it makes me mad as a hornet that the subject seems to get
>swept under the rug so much. I suspect that may be because it is
>one aspect of abductions that makes folks feel so completely
>impotent.

>I can assure you that for parents who have had little ones (as
>young as 2) come to them for information and protection from
>abductions, it is the worst nightmare possible.

>To know beyond any personal doubt that your child is being
>taken, and hurt, and be unable to stop it, let alone really
>explain it to them, is something that makes my own abductions
>and that of other adults pale in comparison.

>Thanks for mentioning this very neglected subject Greg.

>Diane

Diane,

Abductees see the abduction phenomenon very differently from
outsiders. If I were making a list of what abductees think is
most important, the reaction of children would be pretty high.
Certainly every abductee who's a parent has had to think about
this. And the many, many reports of frightened children -- who
seem to have come up with the fear all by themselves -- are
really striking anecdotal evidence that abductions are real.

You're so right when you say that it's a neglected aspect of the
phenomenon, though -- neglected, that is, by people who don't
deal with abductions regularly. Sometimes skeptics do talk about
it, and they can get very angry. It's bad enough, as they see
things, for abduction researchers to convince adults that
they've been abducted, but when unscrupulous researchers or
ignorant parents stoop so low as to instill these fantasies in
children -- THAT, say the skeptics, is about as low as anyone
could sink.

I can understand their anger -- it's more or less the same kind
of emotion abductee parents have, when they hear their kids
start talking about the abduction beings.  The skeptics just
can't imagine that children haven't absorbed abduction talk from
their parents.

Budd Hopkins has a test to see whether kids might have been
abducted. He has a set of cards, that depict famliar fiigures in
everyday life -- a policeman, a fireman, and others. Mixed in
with the familiar figures is a standard alien face. He asks kids
to look at the cards, and tell a story about each. Some kids,
apparently, move quickly over the alien card, having no reaction
to it. Others get frightened, fall silent, or tell stories. "I
don't like him! He comes into my room at night."

Diane, I hope your very honest and deeply felt post helps people
understand what abductees go through.






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                           Filer's Files #48-1998

From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 23:38:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 23:38:58 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #48-1998

Source: http://ufoinfo.com/filer/1998/ff_4898.html

FILER'S FILES

Filer's Files #48-1998
MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer: MUFON Eastern Director,
December 3, 1998
Majorstar@aol.com (609) 654-0020


     Filer's Files: sponsored by Global Force Ltd

PARANORMAL ACTIVITY ON THE INCREASE

UFOs and possibly related abductions are being reported
over many countries throughout the world such as China,
United Kingdom, India, Italy, Chile, Singapore, Australia, etc.
There are too many to give detailed reports. Additionally
ghost hunters are reporting increased activity in Georgia and
other places. Religious organizations are reporting an
increase in demonic- like activity. These reports may not be
related to extraterrestrials. However, one only has to look at
hundreds of books written in the Middle Ages to see a
startling relationship in the various stories. We could be
dealing with several different phenomena that are visitors to
people=92s homes. Last week, I received a call from a very
successful woman in Southern New Jersey. She saw a ghost
like creature coming into her bedroom on the night of
November 28, 1998. The woman had a nightmare of being
raped by the entity. She had ugly black bruises on her inner
thighs and had and other indications of being mistreated. The
bruises appear as a small hand might have caused them.
Hold all fingers of your hand together as if you were trying to
pick up a small object. Press hard into your inner thigh and
you get an idea of how bruises would look. Most bruises are
above knee as if pushing your legs apart. The witness saw a
luminescent scary form about the size of an average man.
Many stories fit the old incubus and succubus legends. She
felt she awaked after being levitated off the bed and suddenly
dropped. Although her husband is a light sleeper, he appears
to have been unconscious. The woman screamed loudly, but
her spouse did not awake. The entity left the room with her
screaming and praying. They seem to come from another
world, a realm beyond our physical world. Obviously the
couple is very upset about the intruder. They are successful
college educated people who met a different form of
intelligence. The bruises and the violations are real. Whitley
Strieber phoned and also indicated his concern about the
apparent increase in cases. He reminded me that his book
Majestic was based on the testimony of high ranking officers.
Perhaps there is both extraterrestrial and inner terrestrial
intelligence?

ALIEN LIFE FORMS MAY BE INSIDE EARTH

BRITAIN -- The Sunday Times November 22, 1998, by
Science Correspondent Steve Farrar. Life forms so alien that
scientists may simply not have recognized evidence of their
existence could inhabit the Earth, according to a leading
scientist. DR Tom Gold, emeritus professor of astronomy at
Cornell University, believes that organisms based on silicon --
completely unrelated to all the carbon-based life man has
encountered so far -- may live at great depths. In a
forthcoming book he will suggest that scientists should take
the possibility more seriously. Gold, who is a member of the
Royal Society, previously predicted that vast amounts of more
conventional bacteria live miles down within the Earth's crust.
Scientists initially dismissed the idea, but many now agree
with him. "So long as nobody suspects there could be
silicon-based life, we may just not be clever enough to identify
it," he said last week. Rocks bearing signs of silicon-based
organisms may already be sitting in laboratories, he believes,
with their significance overlooked. Every known living
organism, from bacteria to mankind, is based on the
chemistry of carbon, which forms the complex molecules such
as DNA that are central to our existence. Scientists believe
that if extraterrestrial life is found, the chances are that it, too,
will be carbon-based. Silicon has many chemical similarities
to carbon, prompting scholars and science fiction writers to
dream up new life forms. Gold is often right in his scientific
predictions. Copyright 1998 Times Newspapers Ltd.

NEW YORK

FORT DRUM--A witness claims unusual sightings along the
southeastern edge of Lake Ontario. Larry Clark reports he
interviewed a lady who lives near the lake and base. She has
observed a large triangular craft in the night sky on a frequent
basis. Teenagers from a local Civil Air Patrol group told her
they also spotted the triangular craft near Evans Mills, and Ft.
Drum. Within the last few weeks the woman has regularly
observed a large bluish light with a small red strobe in its
center. She has seen it nearby her property and over the lake,
sometimes hovering for hours. She reports it can hover
silently, or on occasion emit sound. The craft may be
gathering intelligence and my be conducting mapping. The
person has also reported significant new construction both on
the base and in the area. New microwave towers around the
base and 'golf ball' shaped satellite dishes and
communication devices are under construction. The upgrade
of the perimeter enclosure with high, razor wire topped
fencing. On base construction continues on a new runway,
new hangars, and possible underground facilities. There are
also huge venting pipes protruding from the ground. The
woman believes the area is riddled with strange humming
and vibrations from underground construction. Thanks to Larry
Clark at http://www.nymufon.org & lclark@ibm.net.

NEW JERSEY:

SURF CITY -- Bill Phillips writes he saw UFOs on April 6,
1998, from the shoreline of Long Beach Island. My partner
and I were walking north on the beach and saw a brilliant
white light, just east of Barnegut Light, over the Atlantic
Ocean. One minute it was relatively high in the sky, the next it
was very low or on the water. After a few minutes, we noted a
small dim white light, moving east appearing and
disappearing, as if a small plane was switching its landing
lights off and on. The object appeared to pass over the island
losing altitude. One light appeared to be a helicopter. The
second light or object which slowed to a stop, moved
backwards, drifted vertically a bit, but maintained a steady
position over the ocean. We then noticed a third and fourth
object all moving erratically. The third object turned east and
slowly moved out to sea. The fourth object then dropped in
altitude heading east, then turning back toward the west and
repeating, as if they were slowly running some sort of
grid/search pattern. After fifteen minutes all three objects
disappeared. Total time of these observations was 45
minutes. Anyone spending time on the Jersey coast should
keep an eye on the sky. You just might see something that will
surprise you! Thanks to: Bill Phillips Mansfield PA
calamity@ptdprolog.net

NORTH JERSEY=97Vinny reports he took a new daylight
photo of a pink orb among the trees on November 24, 1998,
near dusk at 4:55 PM. The pink plasma like object is partially
obscured behind a tree. Thanks to UFO Contat.

ROCKAWAY TOWNSHIP--An e-mail from Michael Napoli
claims he sighted a UFO on November 20, 1998, near at
1:16 PM and a short time later. This is not a hoax!! (973)
442-9687 3 Stanley Terr. Rockaway Twsp. NJ 07801
Baint175@aol.com

GEORGIA

LITHIA SPRINGS=97MUFON State Director, former Police
Chief Tom Sheets reports they were able to identify and
interview the UFO witness from the sighting in last week=92s
files. She is 50 years old and resident of Lithia Springs, who
holds a degree in Horticulture. On September 15, 1998, at
about 5:30 AM, she was enroute to work and drove by a local
ball park. As she approached, she observed lights through
the trees. Then upon reaching the central portion of the facility,
she observed a large domed shaped craft hovering over the
playing fields. She said, "The craft was solid, and appeared
to be gray." The lights were in groups of three,
red/white/green, a space, repeat, space, repeat, non-blinking,
and seemingly on a rib or ridge that ran around the craft. She
indicated the craft was about the size of a house. There was
no sound, but when she rolled her window down she heard a
soft 'whirring' noise like the wind blowing. Suddenly, the craft
completely disappeared instantly. Within a few days she
returned with a friend and observed a scorched area. Bill
Stockwell of UFO Forum conducted an initial investigation of
the field. On 28 November, Tom Sheets, Field Investigators
(CFI) Jim Clifford, FI Roberta Puhalski, and FI David Brown
and photographer Barbara Sheets investigated the site. The
scorched traces were not visible, but it has rained several
times since the event. Most of the grass was winter brown.
Significantly new grass shoots were in evidence. Some
samples were taken for further examination. This investigation
will continue. Editors Note: In some areas where UFOs have
hovered the plants will be sprout or grow at an unusually rapid
rate. The newest Air Force F-22 fighter aircraft is being built a
few miles away. Engineers at Lockheed Martin might be
interested in the performance of this UFO. It seems unlikely
they would test an experimental craft 15 miles from downtown
Atlanta. This suggests something very special. Keep up the
great work!

DOUGLASVILLE/HIRAM=97On November 28, 1998, a
witness called and stated that she and her spouse had
observed some unusual 'jerking and swaying' lights in the sky.
They trained a telescope on one. It was circular with a
biological 'cell' like appearance. It had a 'cell' as nucleus with
a dark ring within that changed to a spiral shape. The lights
flickered with different colors. She became hesitant to speak
more because she wished to return outside and continue to
watch it. She gave her contact info and I advised her to sketch
it while watching since she had no cameras. This
investigation will continue.

ROXBURY=97A woman called on December 1, 1998, stating
she saw a 'spire' shaped object at the Lenox Mall. It was
hovering vertically with a triangular shape on top.

CLERMONT--On December 1, 1998, at 10:00 PM, just north
of m town Gainesville/Lake Lanier in the mountains a witness
observed a glowing object 15 degrees above the ESE
horizon. It was oval in shape, white, but giving off red, blue
and green colors. I am supposed to meet tomorrow night
when he is home and can talk freely. I'll be meeting with the
second Highway 400 event witness in Alpharetta Saturday to
check out the site. Thanks to Tom Sheets

TROUP COUNTY--On December 1, at 7:00 PM, a mother
saw a "moon UFO." Looking to the southwest and
approximately five miles away in Harris County, halfway
between Pine Mountain and Whitesville, the mother said she
saw a ball of light at less than 200 feet high. The ball, which
was much brighter than the moon and about a quarter of its
size, was seen for nearly 15 seconds. "It was like looking at a
giant spotlight in the air." While watching the motionless UFO,
she also saw an extremely low-flying helicopter approach
from the northwest. The lights on the helicopter, "one flashing
white, and one steady red," were "20 times smaller" than the
"huge bright ball." On seeing the helicopter get near the large
light, the mother excitedly left her yard and called her parents,
but they missed seeing the UFO. For the next ten minutes the
father a former Navy and private pilot, said three helicopters
and a small plane were frantically searching the area at
treetop level. He had flown similar search patterns when in the
Navy and is certain they were looking for something. Finally
the small plane flew directly over their heads at less than 500
feet. Calls were made to three sheriff departments and the
military, but all denied seeing a UFO. Thanks to John
Thompson SSD.

WEST VIRGINIA DISC STALKS JETLINER

On Wednesday, November 18, 1998, Jerry F. and his
daughter were leaving their home in Cross Lanes, West
Virginia at 8:00 AM, when he spotted a strange glimmer in
the sky. As I entered the garage, I looked up into the sky to
see a Boeing 727 jet fly overhead. It was high up enough that
it left a very clear contrail. Suddenly, at a very close range
above the plane, a silver/grey disc appeared. It flew directly
over the top of the plane and made a side-to-side swaying
motion, almost like a leaf falling. As it moved, the sun glinted
off it, and it shone very brightly. "Suddenly, from the east, a
delta shaped jet came screaming toward the UFO." At that
point, the UFO abruptly stopped. The UFO glowed very
brightly and then shot straight up and out of sight in seconds.
"I have an Air Force Intelligence background," he added, "and
what I saw is nothing I am familiar with." Cross Lanes is 15
miles northwest of Charleston, the state capital. Thanks to
UFO Roundup #48, Dec. 1, 98 Joe Trainer Editor.

OKLAHOMA

OKLAHOMA CITY=97November 17, 1998, Jim Hickman
reports Bill M. and Carroll Y decided to go outside to view the
meteor showers at 4:10 AM. 'We work the night shift
together.' After five minutes, Carroll pointing to the sky
eastward and excitedly shouted 'look, what the hell is that?'
That's when we had seen the bright white light for about three
seconds. The light was brighter than even aircraft landing
lights or otherwise. Then it extinguished. We then witnessed a
meteor shower. Ten minutes passed when Bill shouted and
pointed at three orange colored lights moving Southwest
forming a triangular pattern for about ten seconds. Thanks to
Bill M. Calamity@epix.net. and Skywatch International Inc.

TWENTY UNITED KINGDOM POLICE OFFICERS
SEE UFOs

LONDON--Gerry Lovell of the Sunday Independent writes. A
group of retired and serving police officers are risking ridicule
by coming forward to tell all about their alleged encounters
with UFOs. More than 20 officers have responded to an
advertisement in Police Review inviting them to recount their
close encounters of the third kind. These include stories of
alien abduction and gigantic blocks of light hovering above
their squad cars. At least two former officers claim to have
photographic evidence of their meetings with
extra-terrestrials. Their extraordinary stories are to be
collected in a new book Policing the UFO, to include
interviews with at least 20 former and serving police officers
and as many as 200 recorded incidents involving police from
around the world. Many of the examples from the second
category will be taken from previously unreleased Ministry of
Defense papers. The book's author, Irene Bott, has chosen to
concentrate on police officers because of their relative
position of trust in society. "They are less likely to be written
off as cranks, or loonies," she explained. Others may,
however, think they are boldly going beyond the call of duty
and risking ridicule and professional suicide. For this reason,
many officers appear to have waited until they have left the
police service before speaking out. One officer claims to
have been abducted and medically examined by aliens in the
1980s. He later recalled, via hypnosis, being taken aboard a
space craft and examined by aliens. A police officer says he
took five photographs of a UFO while on duty in the West
Midlands in the 1980s, but that the MoD confiscated them.
Declassified MoD papers from the 1950s to the 1970s that
report investigations into sightings by police officers and
incidents at military bases. The files name police officers
involved and allegedly include accounts of helicopters being
sent after UFOs. Two serving officers contacted her a couple
of weeks ago and claim to have seen UFOs in the past
month.11-27-98 Thanks to John Thompson and posted by
John (conan.gocis.bg)

NEW PLANET FOUND

Peter Spinks on The Age [Australia] wrote: "The chances are
we are not alone." Scientists have found another planet -- this
time a massive one that is relatively nearby -- orbiting a star a
little smaller and dimmer than our sun and a relative stone's
throw from our solar system. The planet, believed to be about
four times the size of Jupiter, the biggest planet orbiting the
sun, is the 13th so far discovered outside our solar system. It
was found by a team of Swiss astronomers using a powerful
telescope in Chile. Although the planet is too faint and distant
to be observed from Earth. Its existence was inferred from the
gravitational tug it exerts on the parent star, known as Gliese
86, which it orbits. Gliese 86, one of a pair of stars in the
southern constellation of Eridanus, is not as bright as the sun.
However, it is only 35 light years from us, which means the
star can be seen in the night sky without binoculars.
Astronomers at the European Southern Observatory's La Silla
Observatory in Chile believe it exists because Gliese 86 is
wobbling in space. The 13 suspected planets outside our
solar system have been detected in the past three years, and
most caused a wobble in their parent stars. "Planets are
popping up everywhere -- it's great," said DR John Lattanzio,
a planetary scientist in the applied mathematics department
of Monash University. "The universe, must be full of planets."
Thanks to November 26, 1998, The Age.

ROSWELL DEBRIS PHOTOGRAPHS PRO AND
CON

Kevin Randle writes that Russ Estes has conducted a number
of tests on the paper seen in the July 8, 1947, photographs of
General Ramey's hand. Estes used a professional video
camera that cost about $50,000 originally, a $7000 macro
lens, and about $50,000 worth of computer equipment. He
used Adobe Photoshop 4.0 as software and flat scanned at
9000 dpi which created a file of about 1.5 gigabits. In other
words, he used the best equipment available for the
imagining. He also used a microscope to examine the memo.
He, and others used magnifying glasses, jewelers' loops, and
their bare eyes. They used every and all techniques to look at
the memo Ramey held. (And yes, they noticed that he had a
ragged thumb nail that could mean he bites his nails or that he
had broken it.) According to Estes, the words' lengths were
visible, but the individual letters were open to interpretation.
He said that it looked to him as if it was memo was in all
caps. He said the only word that he could be positive about
was "THE." He also believed that he could see the letters
ELA but could not tell if the first image in that string was
quotation marks or other letters that could not be read. He
also said that he saw the word "Confidential" stamped at the
top of the memo and that there was a smear near Ramey's
thumb that could be seen as an old style telephone. Estes
used the best equipment and software available. (Snip).
Estes said that he was disappointed that the images couldn't
be resolved to the point where the words were readable
rather than interpreted by those doing the examination.
Thanks to Kevin Randle KRandle993@aol.com.

Photographer Dr. James Bond Johnson writes the message
in General Ramey=92s hand reads, "Victims of the crash," is
easiest to see and "transported (unclear) to Fort Worth, Tex,"
"Weather balloon" are clear. Ron and Debbie Stock were the
first to read "Magdalena" - John Bond Johnson reports that
the Roswell Photo Interpretation Team continues to see data
within the photographs taken by him in 1947. The symbols in
most cases are easier to "read" on the Major Marcel=92s right
photo. The wider beams seem to have strange symbols
etched within them. They look like a hook, an h, a cross, a flat
S, and even a lion face. Comparing several of the photos
affords a kind of 3-D effect and permits more understanding
of the makeup of the beams spread out on the floor of the
General=92s office. Incidentally, I reviewed again the "blueprint"
for the Rawin radar target device and was unable to locate
any beams of such proportions. The embossed symbols
seem to have definite height along the Bond Beam, that
appears to definitely rule out that the glyphs are "painted" on
the beams. A comparison of the same symbols and objects in
the different shots with different lighting & shadow
composition seems to rule out that the symbols are illusory
due to "light reflections."
One ancient "emblem" symbol appears similar to a "stelae"
or carved 2,500 year old Egyptian tablet in the British
Museum. Thanks to James Bond Johnson and Marilyn Ruben
Photo expert Bob Shell says the FBI and state police labs
have the special software to easily read the message.

GET THE BEST AND HELP UFO RESEARCH, IT
COULD SAVE YOU MONEY

As a special aid to our readers, we can help you obtain the
best real estate experts in your area at no cost to you. Make
sure you have a top notch agent, to buy or sell your home
often your biggest investment. We provide free relocation
information and consulting services from the largest and most
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would like a top flight real estate agent give me a call at 609
654-0020 or E-mail me at Majorstar@aol.com.
Please send your name, phone number, address, price range
and location to move.

MUFON JOURNAL For more detailed investigative reports
subscribe by writing to 103 Oldtowne Road, Sequin, TX
78155-4099 or e-mail Mufon@aol.com. Filer's Files
Copyright 1998 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved.

Readers may post items from the Files on their
Websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit
the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of
issue that the item appeared. A search engine for Filer's
Files is at:
http://www.ufoinfo.com/filer/1998/ff_2198.html.
Send your letters to George A. Filer at
Majorstar@aol.com. If you wish to keep your name
confidential please so state.






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 6

                    Re: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:00:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 09:18:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience


>From: David Rudiak  <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:34:44 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience


>Yet Drake wrote that people's ability to relate the directional
>information with regards to fireball sightings tended to be
>rather poor, with a few exceptions.  Also note that most of
>these eyewitness reports used by LaPaz were collected days to
>MONTHS after the event.  But Drake claimed that after only a
>single day, half the reports were "clearly erroneous," and after
>five days they were "more imagination than truth," or if you
>will, virtually worthless.

>"This is something that the UFO investigator rarely
>appreciates," comments Drake.  "The common procedure of starting
>a UFO investigation days after an event cannot lead to the most
>accurate description of the event."


I know there is a lot of respect for Drake and his work.
However, I have a question:

Isn't a 'Drake' a 'Duck'?
(Implications intended...)  <G>  ;-)

REgards, Mike


ICQ#:7508455.
(502) 683-6811





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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 6

             Re: 'Roswell Memo' Images On Friedman's New CD ROM

From: Sean Jones <Tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 22:13:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 09:26:40 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Roswell Memo' Images On Friedman's New CD ROM


>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: 'Roswell Memo' Images On Friedman's New CD ROM
>Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:09:59 -0400


>All others use

>79 Pembroke Crescent,
>Fredericton,
>NB Canada E3B 2V1.

>The price includes shipping and handling.Let the chips fall
>where they may.

>Stan Friedman

Hi Stan

I'll post you the dollars this weekend so can you put my name on
one of those please. Also, I've now produced a CD-ROM. Its got
all the FBI FOIA documents that are available on the net. The
CD-ROM also has over 2000 pictures and over forty movie files on
it. Would you like a copy?

---
    In an infinite universe inifinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm





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   Dec > Dec 6

                Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc

From: John White <mjawhite@digitaldune.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:25:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 09:35:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc


>Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:00:07 +0200
>From: Jakes Louw <LOUWJE@telkom.co.za>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc

>> UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> 12/04 2:34 AM
>>From: Moderator, UFO UpDates

>>      A superior form of colonizing will have to be conceived,
>>that could be a kind of tutelage, possibly through the tacit
>>approval of the United Nations. But would the United Nations
>>legally have the right of allowing such tutelage over us in such
>>a fashion?

>Just a question to somebody who knows their history:

>When was the UN formed? As far as I remember, the UN was created
>from the concept of the League of Nations, but I can't remember
>when....


Jake, List, et al.,

League of Nations---Yes.....UN Started in the early years of
WWII 1941-1942 among the allied nations with the full charter at
the end of WWII..... Summer of 1945

In any event, I think the Duke hooked it with his observation on
the recency of the  use of the term  "retrovirus"---RNA-only
viruses using a host's DNA to reproduce..... Retrovirus is more
than just a casual name..... it describes a family of viruses
whose unique reproductive behavior has only recently been
understood, and which behavior has given rise to the family
name: retroviridae..... But, you never know, because in the
early 1920's viruses were thought to cause cancer in animals,
and we have to remember the influenza epidemic which killed lots
of soldiers during WWI, maybe a lot of BW research during the
war years!!! After all, we hid that bomb thing pretty well until
it blew up.....

Speculatively yours,

John White







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                            Alfred's Odd Ode #283

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 12:03:25 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 09:40:23 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #283


Apology to MW #283 (For December 5, 1998)

Do you DARE to call _me_ slacker!?! I _support_ the end I'm
given, and I _work_ to pay a freight I know is fair! And I'll
take your weak derision (born of nervous precondition!), and
return it with _three_folds_ -- you best beware! Your insults
are insufficient, and define _you_ as contentious -- and they
point you out, so plain, for all to see. You're the reason
money's worthless, that we all live on an edge -- why you
_think_ you have control, or that you're free! But who's the one
that's free, dim bulb, unfettered by restriction, unimpeded by
the cold wet fish of class or long tradition? Who _lives_ where
you'd know terror; who knows the secret deals? Who knows what
kids are thinking (and that _from_ them you shall steal!)?. Who
knows that washboard clouds _must_ mean that sound (so low!) is
heard, or that birds are tiny dinosaurs who should live on
undeterred. . .

For me, I'd freely give out on the edge of airless space, before
I'd give an _inch_ to such as you. Your *righteous* soporific's
too sonorous as it bleats what we come to find is blatantly
untrue! It is _you_ that apes the coward -- so _preoccupied_
with sex! It's you, the charming blue nose, that will help us
fail our test. It's you with your foundations, and your *morals*
you've extended -- to you of course they won't apply, but
_hidden_ _you've_ pretended.

As for you, you'll get comeuppance when the truth you hide is
known. Who climbs your walls in anger, and who drags you from
your home? _Who_ will ask the questions that are answered from
the heart? You _shall_ not have your lawyer there to play his
scabrous part! You'll stand alone, uncovered -- Who's that
calling on the phone?  Who makes you pay for disrespect -- Who's
throwing back your bone? Who's had enough of secrets, and makes
you rue the day that you bred them into servitude and then made
them pay your way?

Black folks are not abductees? Make a separation there? A cosmic
segregation that we _might_ propose is there?  _Unworthy_ of
discerning Greys preferring whiter meat? Black folks just don't
hit the spot? Are White folks more their treat? That *they*
would count _our_ differences, or toe a skinhead line is off the
wall insanity, and a waste of precious time!!! An _example_ of
our problem, and our lack of common sense, we are doomed by this
iniquity -- we're so shallow, blunt, and dense.

We don't _deserve_ the secrets that should rain down from the
sky. We don't deserve our bounty, and should care to wonder why!
Content to stumble blindly in the shadows of the *Fathers*, we
dress them out as heroes, and won't listen or be bothered if we
later find them ill advised, aligned by Christian *right*, a
shackle on our freedom -- or obstructer of our light.  We
support their *little* secrets in the hopes that we slide by --
are absolved by our indifference as we gulp the bigger lie. I
point this out, flat mad as hell, because I'd get up off my
knees! I'd play to pay the piper, so our _children_ could be
free!

For this you mock/deride me, that I see you wear no clothes --
that I _mock_ your lack of balance, and your ethic's full of
holes. That the 'man' would squeeze your gonads, and you'd toe
an unjust line. You'd spew unearned derisiveness, abusing all
you find! You'd encourage new divisiveness while the world
slowly dies. You'd give up your decisiveness to feed that fat
despised. Giving in to their malignity, you are spitefully
depraved! You have given up to devils! You are wrong, unjust,
unbrave! I bite my unwashed thumb at you! I give the secret
sign! I hoist my middle finger in the hopes that you're struck
blind! I continue my rude gestures -- illustration for contempt.
Your outrage and annoyance I portend is heaven sent! I fester in
your kill file! I shall not go away. Like Jefferson's black
progeny I'll see the truth some day!

Your lack of grace emboldens me, I am DRIVEN by your spite!
Encouraged by your bitter bile I fight a better fight! Your
taunts? My ammunition! Your jeers? My hand grenades! Your petty
wounding comments are my raining fusillade!  I've strength where
you have weakness 'cause I understand your plight. I hate your
jealous shadows! You hate that I want light!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Restore John Ford! Put him back where he was -- so far up
Powell's upturned nose he's tasting Johnny's unwashed toes! --
Explore the Alien View! Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 12 September>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $100.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.








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                    Re: Roswell Revelation: 'Iceman Down'

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 13:25:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 09:46:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell Revelation: 'Iceman Down'


Roswell Revelation: Interview with authors of book "Iceman Down"

The first anyone has heard of Larry Rogers and Curt Robinson was
from a fleeting newspaper article announcing that they had an
incredible secret to tell the world.

The article, which appeared during the 50th year anniversary
festivities of the Roswell Incident, was seen in the July 6,
1997 edition of The Cincinnati Enquirer. Courtesy of columnist
Jim Knippenberg, the brief report told of two Cincinnati-based
engineers who had a most remarkable discovery to announce: the
REAL truth behind the famous Roswell Incident.

Since that time, little has been heard of Larry and Curt. Sure,
they have been contacted by numerous researchers eager for a
morsel of what they claim to have, vying for a tantalizing
tidbit of their truths. But they have not talked.

Both Larry and Curt have been busily researching Roswell, making
preparations for the stunning disclosures they promise to reveal
in 'Ice Man Down.' Their research is secretive, unnoticed. They
have spent many hours quietly conducting library investigations,
they have repeatedly traveled from Cincinnati, Ohio to Roswell,
New Mexico.

Their lips have been sealed... until now.

The twosome, declaring a stunning revelation to end the mystery
surrounding an alleged crash and secretive military recovery of
a Flying Saucer in Roswell, New Mexico of 1947, now announce
that they have completed all of their preparations to launch the
book which they co-author, 'Ice Man Down.'

An exclusive interview with Curt and Larry discussing their
methods of discovery and drama surrounding their findings can be
found at the following location:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/

--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/





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                          How To Film An Abduction

From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:04:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 09:50:55 -0500
Subject: How To Film An Abduction


How to Catch Alien Abductors on Film

This message was inspired by some references made in 'The
Challenge' thread and is not meant to be taken _too_
seriously...


We were discussing this topic a long while back on an IRC
channel when it occurred to me that every idea that came up
involved some high tech. electronic gadgetry of some sort. If we
take all the effects reported by experiencers at face value and
try to design or trap accordingly, the end result would have to
be some kind of Wile E. Coyote creation employing only
mechanical parts with no electric or electronic components at
all.

The camera would have to be and old clock-spring driven thing
and we may wrap it in lead foil, just to be on the safe side.
Perhaps a magnet dangling on a string could be used as a sort of
hair trigger, starting the camera rolling when the local field
is disturbed in some way. Light might be a problem with the old
movie camera, you may have to sleep with the lights on. The
whole, wild set-up gets put into a dusty old trunk or cardboard
box with a hole in the bottom for the lens. Other random items
are put into the trunk for camouflage and the box is placed in
the attic over the sleepers bedroom. Another hole will be
necessary in the ceiling. Keep it small and ask mom if it's ok
before you start.

Ideally you would have the device installed by someone totally
disconnected from the situation. The experiencer would not even
know of the plan for greater insurance. This part may involve
some criminal activity of the B and E variety so consult a
professional (thief) before you begin. If the experiment is
successful, I think all will be forgiven and no charges will be
filed. You'll have the whole episode on film. Through a little
tiny hole... hmmm...

Oh well, back to the drawing board!

:)

R.G.





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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:05:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 09:57:04 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments:


>From: David RudiakDRudiak@aol.com
>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 19:10:31 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>For once one of the Klass Klowns has it right.

Oh, gosh, thanks. In this case it would be hard to get it wrong.
Repeating what I said in greater detail was helpful too.

<snip>

>generally viruses infect more narrowly.  E.g.,
>infectivity of  viruses like Ebola and HIV
>is restricted to primates.

It's true that by and large viruses target specific cells in
which to get the reproductive process going. (E.g. rhinoviruses
setting about the back of your throat, HIV specializing in
T-helper lymphocytes, &c &c.)

However, it's not true that Ebola is restricted to primates.
Last time I looked, fruit bats and Red Colobus monkeys were
major suspects for the natural reservoir, with bird and reptiles
also being researched. And Patient Zero had eaten both antelope
and monkey flesh before his symptoms showed.

>The richness of other extremely obscure and otherwise accurate
>historical detail in these various papers as verified by the
>Woods (and also Stanton Friedman) suggests  that hoaxing these
>documents may have been well beyond the capabilities of private
>individuals.  Hoaxing of this magnitude would require an inside
>job.  Only intelligence agencies with ready access to period
>classified material could likely pull it off.

Men and nuns may die of Ebola fever, but the Rudiak paranoia
virus seems to be the only thing keeping the patient here alive.
This above is rather like the ancient astronautophiles' implicit
presumption that the Ancient Egyptians were too dumb to figger
out how to assemble pyramids. Why should a private individual
with the time and patience and a modicum of daffy imagination
not have put this lot together as easily as anyone with time,
erudition, intelligence, and a constructive outlook, can become
a ... ooooh, let's say an Egyptologist?

Not that I'm dismissing the possibility that several hoaxers may
have been at work, or the possibility that, seeing David R's
take on their efforts, they are falling about with gleeful
guffaws. Made me laugh, anyway.

Historical Note: Newcomers to the List may not know that David
Rudiak is moderately famous for suggesting that my tome "UFO:
The Government Files" was a disinfo job funded by an agency of
unspeakable furtiveness - because he thought the paper it was
printed on was of _suspiciously_high_quality_. Zooks!

best wishes
Pyogenic D. Mesosome
Red Hand - Black Heart





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                            What's New At Magonia

From: Mark Pilkington <m.pilkington@virgin.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 16:16:50 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 10:00:43 -0500
Subject: What's New At Magonia


http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/newmag.htm

 04/12/98

Abduction Watch #15
Feet and mouth, implants special. Dr Leir's flaky evidence.

ETH Bulletin #9
Saucers full of secrets. Where's the evidence for the global
cover-up?

Mark Pilkington
------------------------------------------------

Magonia Online


http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk


"If you and I meet each other on the street that fateful day,
Aug. 18, 1999, and we chat about what we will do on the morrow,
we will open our mouths to speak and no words will come out, for
we have no future...you and I will suddenly run out of time!"
The Amazing Criswell







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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 11:24:01 PST
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 10:08:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:06:06 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:46:05 -0500

>>>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:41:10 +0000
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>>If you think that a book claiming that large numbers of "aliens" are
>>>flooding into the US (and elsewhere) and forcibly impregnating women
>>>from the host population to produce a generation of mixed-race hybrids
>>>has no overtones of traditional racist fears you have rather less
>>>imagination than I thought.

>>This is not at all what traditional racist fear is about. Nor is
>>it what The Threat is about.

>>The Threat is about aliens who want to take over the earth and
>>replace the human race. Impregnating women to create hybrids is
>>one part of that alleged plan -- but then, so is taking sperm
>>from men. You'll find male abductees not happy at all with their
>>sexual abuse on the part of their abductors -- something that
>>doesn't fit the traditional imagery of racial fear at all.

>>So how does fear of strong, macho, sexually potent immigrants
>>transmute itself into fantasies of abduction by small, weak,
>>hairless, unemotional, sexless aliens without any genitals?

>They are powerful through the near-magical technology they
>employ to "steal our women". Loathsome Nazi sterotypes of Jews
>depicted physically inferior figures gaining power over "Aryan"
>women through slyness, money and deceit.

Note the ever-shifting, slippery nature of the psychosocial
claim.  First we are told that it is the supposed predatory
sexuality of Hispanics and blacks that this nation of bigots
(as John would have us) fear.  Now, after Greg has shown the
utter failure of such stereotypes to fit Jacobs's The Threat,
John switches the discussion.  Now it turns out that our
abductees take their supposed fantasies from Nazi-like
images and fears.  One doesn't know whether to laugh or cry.

Jerry Clark





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             Special Charter Offer: The Global Situation Report

From: Michael Lindemann <GSReport@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:47:56 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 10:11:37 -0500
Subject: Special Charter Offer: The Global Situation Report

              Coming Soon: A New Twice-Monthly Journal
                From the Editor & Publisher of CNI News

            T H E  G L O B A L  S I T U A T I O N  R E P O R T

Here are twelve startling things that could happen within the
next 50 years or less:

     10 billion people on earth
     Extinction of half the species of life on earth
     Average global temperature rise of 3 degrees F.
     Human life expectancy exceeds 100 years
     Cybernetic brain enhancement in humans
     Proof of extraterrestrial life
     Human settlement on Mars
     Cloning of human beings
     Limited nuclear war
     Sentient machines
     Control of gravity
     Unlimited energy

Our world will be a very different place if even one of these
things does happen. If all or most of them happen, our world
might not even be recognizable to us.

One thing that will definitely happen in just over a year is
Y2K.  No one can be absolutely sure how bad the Year 2000
Computer Problem will be, or precisely how it will be bad. But
growing numbers of responsible voices in many sectors of society
agree that Y2K could create large-scale disruptions in the lives
of millions, or billions, of people.

The GLOBAL SITUATION REPORT is a new twice-monthly online
journal that examines the events and trends that will shape our
world, for better or worse, as we enter the new millennium. The
foregoing list of twelve startling future events illustrates the
broad scope of our inquiry. During 1999, our first year of
publication, we will also focus special attention on the
challenges of Y2K, with emphasis on practical preparation for
individuals, families and communities.

Although the years just ahead may well be among the most
tumultuous in history, the picture is not entirely bleak. Out of
chaos can come innovative social and economic reorganizations,
staggering technological breakthroughs, and reaffirmation of
core human values. And the limitless frontier of space beckons
the next generation of pioneers, offering challenges and
opportunities undreamed of by generations past.

The GLOBAL SITUATION REPORT, edited by Michael Lindemann and
published by the 2020 Group, offers a unique blend of
information and insight to help you navigate the coming rapids
of global change.

The GLOBAL SITUATION REPORT begins publishing on January 10,
1999 and will appear thereafter on the 10th and 25th of every
month. Its regular subscription price is $12 for six months (12
issues), or $24 for a full year (24 issues). But you can enroll
now for a full year of the GLOBAL SITUATION REPORT at the
special charter rate of just $15. This low pre-publication price
is good only until December 31, 1998 and comes with this
money-back guarantee: If, after receiving the GLOBAL SITUATION
REPORT for three months (six issues) you are not completely
satisfied, you may cancel your subscription and receive a 100%
refund, no questions asked. You can't lose.

Whether you become a subscriber or not, I'd like to send you
something that I think will be useful to you. Here at the Global
Situation Report, we're so concerned about the lack of public
focus on preparing for Y2K that we're creating a special series
of articles devoted to that topic. The first article in this
series will arrive in your email following this message. The
second article in the series will be sent to you on December 20.
These two articles are free of charge. I hope they help you
focus on the urgent necessity of preparing for Y2K. You may
redistribute these two articles in any way you wish. Further
instalments of our ongoing series will be included in twice-
monthly editions of the Global Situation Report.

To subscribe now to the Global Situation Report at the special
charter rate, send check or money order in the amount of $15.00,
payable to 2020 Group, to: 2020 Group GSR, 2100 W. Drake Rd.
#277, Fort Collins CO 80526. Please be sure to include your
email address with your payment. To subscribe by credit card,
call toll-free: 1-800-898-0284, or email your name, postal
address, credit card number and expiration date to:
GSReport@aol.com.

By the way, Global Situation Report will have a supporting
website. The launch date for the website is not yet determined
but will be announced to all subscribers of both the Global
Situation Report and CNI News as soon as possible.

Thank you, and best wishes for the holidays,





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   Dec > Dec 6

                            Chrismas UFO-Cartoons

From: Werner Walter <113236.1604@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:43:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 10:37:06 -0500
Subject: Chrismas UFO-Cartoons


Hi Everyone,

I=B4m searching for ufological Chrismas-Cartoons. Can anyone send me such
material in JPEG-format or can give me a URL on which I can find such
material?


Werner





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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Thiago Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 19:54:32 -0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 10:52:15 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


Hello all,

Are you all right? I hope so.

Well I was watching a film about Roswell and came a doubt in my
mind. I know that happened a lot of crashs on Earth, and beings
were recovered... but all of them were the "grays" type, or with
big head, no ears, hair... so I ask you.

We know that there's others type of aliens, some of them very
similar to us, blonde hair, tall.

My ask is, there's any report about theses beings, the blondies,
recovered after a crash? Some UFO of them crashed on Earth? Some
alive?


THIAGO LUIZ TICCHETTI
Diretor Do Departamento de Publica=E7=E3o e Tradu=E7=E3o Especializadas
(DEPTE/EBE-ET)
ICQ - 22841973







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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 21:07:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 10:56:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:06:06 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>So how does fear of strong, macho, sexually potent immigrants
>>transmute itself into fantasies of abduction by small, weak,
>>hairless, unemotional, sexless aliens without any genitals?

>They are powerful through the near-magical technology they
>employ to "steal our women". Loathsome Nazi sterotypes of Jews
>depicted physically inferior figures gaining power over "Aryan"
>women through slyness, money and deceit.

Oh.

Abductions are, we're told, a fantasy generated by white
American fear of Hispanic immigrants. The abduction aliens bear
no resemblance to white stereotypes of Hispanics, but that,
we're told, doesn't matter. Other people in other places have
had racist fantasies that _do_ rememble the abductors.

There's no way to argue against this theory. It changes shape
each time it defends itself. Of course, in my book that means
you can't seriously argue for it, either. It's now telling me
that white Americans express a racist fear of Hispanics by
inventing -- for no conceivable reason -- fantasies that
resemble the Nazi notion of Jews. That, in my book, meaans that
this theory is too slippery to really mean anything.

I rest my case.

Returning for a blessed minute to the world of facts, I spoke to
Budd Hopkins today, and found out the following. Very, very few
of the abductees he's worked with have been black. It's a
vanishingly small percentage -- perhaps 10 people out of more
than 600.

The Roper Poll numbers tell a different story. The percentage of
blacks saying they'd had experiences that might indicate
abduction is the same, Budd told me, as the percentage of
whites. Of course, it hasn't been established that having those
experiences means someone has been abducted.

Still, I'll suggest one conclusion. Budd often meets the people
he works with because they write to him. The letters show a
consistent pattern -- people say they've had the experiences the
Roper poll asked about. Because they saw Budd on TV or read one
of his books, they decided to write to him, to find out (there's
often a lot of emotion, and a lot of hesitation in this) whether
alien abductions might possibly explain the experiences that
they've had.

These letter-writers, obviously, are overwhelmingly white. My
conclusion, based on the Roper poll, is that just a high a
proportion of blacks have had the experiences the letter-writers
talk about. So blacks _could_ be writing these letters, and we
now have to ask why they don't.

Do they not read Budd's books and not watch him on TV? Do they
see him on TV, but decide it's a white people thing? Do they see
him and read him, but not write? What explains all this? Do they
see Budd and read him, but decide -- unlike many white people --
that abduction couldn't explain their experiences? Why?

To discuss this seriously, we'd need serious data. Can we find
some similar area in which blacks and whites behave differently?
A social worker who works with Budd suggested one in a
conversation we had this morning. A much smaller proportion of
blacks than whites, he said, seek psychotherapy.

I'm going to leave this discussion here, unless someone suggests
a very different theory, or comes up with some relevant data. I
don't want to speculate any further without some real
information.

Greg Sandow






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             Slovenian 'UFO' Sighting Just Fabrication And Hoax

From: Milos Krmelj <milos.krmelj@guest.arnes.si>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 19:27:22 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 11:11:07 -0500
Subject: Slovenian 'UFO' Sighting Just Fabrication And Hoax


Dear Sir!

In the latest number of electronical publication  UFO Roundup
and also on recent mailings UFO UpDates I saw information on
'UFO' sighting in Slovenia, dated back to  October 29th 1998. On
that date there was 60 years anniversary of famous Orson Welles
radio play on Martian attack on Earth.

On that date also CNN reported on that annversary. As mentioned
radio station which presented that 'UFO' report is using CNN
news and they later even admitted that they were just joking
(doing hoax or fabrication), so that report is of no value.It is
just one of those hoaxes put by irresponsible reporters. And
those are also in our small country now quite present.A weak
side of new democracy!

If there will be really something of substance or true UFO
Report I will be more then glad to inform both UFO Roundup and
Ufomind!

Finally, Slovenia is not 'Balkan' country but still European, it
is bordering on Italy (west), Austria (North), Hungary (East)
and Croatia (South), has close to two million in population and
a little over 20.000 square kilometers of surface area.

At the end I must say that I really very much like (daily) read
Ufomind and weekly UFO Roundup.

Yours Trully,

Milos Krmelj
MUFON Representative for SLOVENIA

PS: I am now interested in UFOs for more then 32 years, and I
am long time member of MUFON, author of one popular UFO book and
former editor of only Slovenian (Yugoslavian)small ufomagazine,
which is now no longer published.





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                         Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 22:22:01 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 11:26:25 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer
>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 03:58:17 EST

>Oh, and BTW, tell me if you don't know the story about the real
>Canal Street in NYC...

>Jim


Dear Jim and Updates,

Sounds like a great idea to me. And by the way, though I live a
mere three blocks away, I don't think that I know the story
about the "real Canal Street in NYC..."

-Scott C. Carr
Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Justin Naughton <emperor@picknowl.com.au>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 00:23:43 +1030
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 11:31:17 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet



UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote:

From:  Justin Naughton <emperor@picknowl.com.au
Date:  Sun,6 Dec 1998 12:03:00 AUS
To: updates@globalserve.net
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

> From: David RudiakDRudiak@aol.com
> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 19:10:31 EST
> To: updates@globalserve.net
> Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>
> >From: Peter Brookesmith - Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
> >Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:11:16 -0500
> >Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:32:13 -0500
> >Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>

SNIP

>
> >That viruses extracted from aliens could be so infectious in
> >humans would require the aliens to have some relationship
> >genetically to humans.  Some viruses like influenza can jump
> >evolutionary Class barriers (like from birds to mammals), but
> >generally viruses infect more narrowly.  E.g., infectivity of
> >viruses like Ebola and HIV is restricted to primates.  The
> >documents indicate the aliens were human or humanlike in
> >appearance, but then something (blacked out) apparently
> >indicated they were supposed to have arisen elsewhere.  That an
> >independently evolved organism could harbor viruses that would
> >infect humans so easily seems remote.   It would be like plant
> >or bacterial viruses being lethal to humans.  It doesn't happen.
> >Viruses are not living organisms and are totally dependent on
> >their hosts for survival.  Viruses and their hosts necessarily
> >evolve together.  So there is no reason to suppose that an alien
> >virus would attack a human, _unless_ there was a close linkage
> >genetically.

SNIP
Is it possible that the virus itself was not the direct antagonist; that
it may have corrupted a virus already existing, perhaps in large
numbers, within the host and changed it from something innocuous
(perhaps even symbiotic) to something deadly?  My point is, there would
be no need for the alien/human "close linkage" if the virus simply
catalysed a (disasterous) reaction in another virus _already in situ_ in
large numbers within the host and this would also explain the phenomenal
progress of the condition.

>
> >The next question to ask is why would they would go through such
> >trouble to discredit the subject matter [alien reality, crashed
> >saucers, etc.].  The only answer that makes sense to me is that
> >the basic subject matter is in fact true.
>
> >David Rudiak


Interesting discussion!

Justin Naughton






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                  Re: UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking!

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 20:38:43 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 11:39:04 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking!


>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 04:43:47 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net>
>Re: UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking!

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Date: Thu, 26 Nov 98 11:52:23 PST
>>Re: UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking!


>>I knew Allen Hynek fairly over the last 10 years of his life.
>>He was not an "intelligence agent," and he was, indeed, a kindly
>>old gent  who, with pipe in hand, had the interests of us all at
>>heart.  He also had a wonderful sense of humor.

>>He had his faults, as all of us do.  I think Jim McDonald was
>>right to criticize him for taking so long to challenge Blue
>>Book.  But in the end what counts is that he did it, with great
>>personal courage and at considerable professional cost.

>Thanks Jerry! You've just added a personal confirmation to the
>research I've done for the last 30 years regarding Dr. Hynek. I
>always felt what you said was correct.

>In addition to what Hynek wrote in his UFO Experience, I offer
>the following to anyone who is wondering who is correct here:

I have to chime in here and say that I second Jerry and Jerome
on this one.

Never having had a personal UFO experience,  I would have never
looked much into the issue if it were not for Hynek's book The
UFO Experience.

Somebody at the local bookstore goofed up and put it into the
sciences section instead of the Occult shelves! I couldn't put
it down. Here was a respected scientist, intimately involved in
the Bluebook 'studies' who had taken a 180-degree turn!

If Hynek was working for the 'coverup people',  he did them an
awful disservice .. and so did the guy shelving the books, to a
much lesser degree.

If Kepler's Books noticed, I'll bet they put the guy in charge of
the music box .. rewinding the endless tapes of Vivaldi's Four
Seasons.

- LH






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                             Re: 'Phone Noises'

From: Bob Soetebier <bikebob@mo.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 22:36:37 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 11:45:29 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Phone Noises'


Thought you all might find the information (that I'm submitting
for perusal _strictly_ for informational/educational purposes)
-- which I've appended below -- of interest in regards to this
ongoing thread discussion.


Bob Soetebier


    Tailwinds to you...  See you ON the road!

    /// BICYCLE BOB ///  bikebob@mo.net


------------------------------------------------------------

Msg #: [362/477]    Base: The UFO Room
(FidoNet) Date : 23 Apr 94  23:45:00    Stat: Sent
>From : Dan Ross To   : All Title: BIG BROTHER WATCHES

From: clarinews@clarinet.com (Reuters) Newsgroups:
clari.local.florida, clari.tw.space, clari.news.usa.military,
clari.news.military

CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla (Reuter) - Bad weather prevented the launch
Saturday of a Titan 4 rocket carrying a secret military payload,
the Air Force said.

Officials tentatively rescheduled the blastoff for Monday
between 12:20 p.m. and 2:40 p.m. EDT.

Air Force spokeswoman Terri Bracher said thunderstorm clouds
around the launch site created hazardous flying conditions for
the Titan 4 and its classified cargo.

Published reports have identified the payload as a $1 billion
electronic eavesdropping satellite code-named Aquacade.

The satellite can listen in on radio conversations and even
private telephone calls to gather intelligence about missile
tests or nuclear blasts.

Ground controllers called off the launch attempt at 1:40 p.m.
EDT, the end of a one-hour window'' for the day, after a
series of earlier technical delays were resolved.

======    END QUOTE   =======


"The satellite can listen in on radio conversations and
even private telephone....."  Or modem calls!?!


 * Origin: (1:343/26)


----------------------------------------------------------------


[P.S.:  According to a Spring, 1994 article published in the
"St. Louis [Missouri] Post-Dispatch" newspaper the $1 billion
electronic-eavesdropping satellite code-named 'Aquacade' was
finally succesfully launched.]

----------------------------------------------------------------

For further info on the U.S. government's all-pervasive
electronic eavesdropping/monitoring capabilities, read the
following two books:

 'The Puzzle Palace: A Report On NSA, America's Most Secret
Agency', (ISBN 0-395-31286) by James Bamford; published in 1982
by Houghton Mifflin Co., 2 Park St., Boston, MA  02108.  James
Bamford holds a Juris Doctor degree and specializes in
investigative writing.  He lives in Natick, Massachusettes.

Quoting from page 176 of the book:

...a more sinister domestic microwave "tap" implanted by the
NSA. ..."There's your smoking pistol right here,"... ... a large
microwave tower with nine cones pointing in five directions.
What makes the tower suspect...is that it is tied into the local
telephone company circuits, which are interconnected with the
nationwide microwave telephone system owned by AT&T. ...the key
is...[it -- and, as others are -- is a] Receive Only Station.
"...it is an extermely broadbanded capability they [NSA] have."
... "This implies that they [NSA] are scanning, continously,
thousands of circuits all over the country." ..."It is not
understandable that the National Security Agency would require
thousands of times the circuit capacity of the world's press
services combined...except that these one-way circuits are
thousands of remote wiretaps!"

Quoting from page 272 of the book:

Within the United States, the NSA is still free to pull
into its massive vacuum cleaner every telephone call and message
entering, leaving, or transiting the country, as long as it is
done by microwave interception. [....]

Quoting from page 379 of the book:

Like an ever-widening sinkhole, NSA's surveillance technology
will continue to expand, quietly pulling in more and more
communications and gradually eliminating more and more privacy.
The task will become increasingly easy throughout the 1980's as
voice communications are converted to digital signals, a goal
expected to be reached by 1990.  When that happens, it will be
easy to run a telephone conversation through a computer,
preprogrammed with watch words, as it is now to run through data
communications.  Of course, by then the ultimate computer may
have been developed, one that will be able instantly to
transcribe a spoken conversation.

[....]

    -----------------------------------------------------

'Blank Check: The Pentagon's Black Budget', was written by
Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter (of the "Philadelphia Enquirer")
Tim Weiner.  The 1990 book (ISBN 0-446-51452-7) was published by
Warner Book, Inc., 666 Fifth Ave., New York, NY 10103.)

From the book's back cover:

"Tim Weiner...uncovers the Pentagon's big secret: $100 million a
day to spend any way it sees fit, whether it serves or disserves
the American people.  He deserves another Pulitzer Prize for
this one." --- Studs Terkel

"Tim Weiner shines his searchlight on dark corners that the
Pentagon would like to keep hidden from the American public."
--- David Wise, author of The Spy Who Got Away, and, The
Invisible Government

"The Pentagon's $36 billion black budget is a license to
steal.  In BLANK CHECK, Pulitzer Prize-winning Tim Weiner tells
the entire, shocking story." --- U.S. Rep. Patricia Schroeder,
(D., Colo.), member, House Armed Services Committee


From the book's inside flyleaf:

'Blank Check' is the story of the Pentagon's secret budget --
the black budget.  A remarkable work of investigative reporting,
this book presents the first detailed look into the
multibillion-dollar cache used to fund every defense program,
every espionage mission, every weapon, and every war that the
President, the Secretary of Defense and the Director of the CIA
want erased from the public ledger and shielded from public
debate. Over the past three years, the black budget has consumed
more than $100 billion -- $100 million a day.  In blatant
defiance of the United States Constitution, this system of
secret spending has stripped Congress of its power over the
federal budget and robbed taxpayers of their right to know how
their money is spent.


From pages 177-182 in the book:

   ...the Special Operations Division...    [....]  ...created a
secret unit called the Intelligence Support Activity, or ISA.
[....]  ... created a secret aviation unit called Seaspray...
inside a CIA-owned company, Aviation Tech Services.
...purchasing and refurbishing...the exotic long-range
helicopters...  ...its Hughes 500MD choppers, so advanced that
they could hug the ground at 150 miles per hour in total
darkness, their whirring blades barely louder than an electric
blender. [....]  From the outside, the office was consulting
firm called Business Security International.  From the inside,
it was a covert operation code-named YELLOW FRUIT. Yellow
Fruit... ...provided deep cover for all the divisions soldiers.
[....]  ...secret checking accounts...dummy
companies...incorporated.  Neither the Army's civilian leaders
nor the Congress knew anything about Yellow Fruit. [....] The
division's men and planes and choppers and speedboats
were...running operations for the CIA and the National Security
Agency.  [....]  Unseen by Congress and the Army's civilian
leadership, the secret soldiers had gone global. [....]  The
secret army had no rules and no laws to guide it. [....]  ...the
Intelligence Support Activity's cover was blown -- by a former
Green Beret.  James "Bo" Gritz, a retired lieutenant colonel...
[....]  The ISA survived...and lives today.

------------------------------------------------------------







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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 04:35:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 11:48:29 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 06:22:10 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

The bulk of Gary's remarks snipped because if you don't remember
them, you can find them in the Ufomind Archive.

Let me preface my remarks by noting that in none of his lengthy
rants against Hynek or Larsen, has Gary reported any actual
damage or subversion caused by these men.  He has only published
a prosaic maligning and defaming daitribe against them stuffed
full of conjecture and inuendo.  Interesting...  some of these
characteristics of his writings are found in his list below.

Now, let us review in our minds the original reply from Jerry
Clark and the lengthy "review and analysis" of it by Gary.
Those of us familiar with Jerry's style on this maillist find
the personal and assertive style of this message consistent with
his other writings. Other than a declarative statement of his
personal perspective, no ulterior or deceptive purpose can be
seen in Jerry's reply.

Next, let us look at the style of Gary's analysis.  Jerry's
reply is parsed into its individual points.  Gary ascribes to
each point only one intensely slanted intent or interpretation.
Each point is given a prolific (often longer than the original
point,) somewhat convoluted explanation of how it fits into a
list of the "typical tools of the propagandist."  The
self-composed, stylised list conveniently falls from the
analysis done by Gary.

Strangely enough, I do see evidence of what I call the growing
personal propaganda of the Nineties.  Gary and I will probably
profoundly disagree on where this propaganda lies.  (Forgive the
pun.)

To be more serious, I am trouble by not knowing two things.
What specific subversive acts, in their post government service
part of life, are Hynek and Larsen supposed to have committed
and in what detailed manner have they hurt the search for the
truth about UFOs? And, what motivates Gary to take the known
history of these gentlemen and construct such a disparaging
conjecture about them?

Below I leave Gary's list so that we may apply it to our own
reading of Jerry's reply and Gary's interpretation of it.

> Let me summarize the typical tools of the propagandist:

> - Diversionary remarks
> - Trivializing remarks
> - Disparaging remarks
> - Emotion laden arguments
> - Elevation of minor errors, e.g. typos
> - Assertion of superior authority
> - Introduction of incoherent material to confuse an issue
> - Personal attack
> - Repetition of spurious argument
> - The erection and destruction of "straw men"
> - Use of a fact as its opposite

>Readers of this list must unfortunately be constantly on their
>guard against such attacks as they seem to be so prevalent as
>the above exposition has shown.

>Our putative propagandist concludes his message with further
>disparaging remarks about the sender, employing the tool of
>repetition.  The original sender was advised to do some soul
>searching apparently with the goal of reform in mind.  However
>it might be better that our propagandist brush up on his
>tradecraft with a refresher course as his skills seem to have
>eroded recently.

> Gary Alevy

Where do our own insights lead us?

Bye...  Ted..






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                    Re: -=[For The Record]=- C-E: Roswell

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 09:22:02 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 11:55:47 -0500
Subject: Re: -=[For The Record]=- C-E: Roswell


>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:40:32 +0100
>Subject: Re: -=[For The Record]=- C-E: Roswell Archaeologists


>>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:01:09 -0600
>>From: Francis Ridge <slk@EVANSVILLE.NET>
>>Subject: archaeologists
>>To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

>>Here's the updated paper on the long-sought archaeologists near
>>Roswell:

>>http://www.evansville.net/~slk/archeo.htm

 >>Fran

 <snip>

 >K. Randle & List,

>Kevin Randle writes about the archaeologists near Roswell.

>Regarding an alleged 'simultaneous incident' near Roswell, Nick
>Pope in his book 'Open Skies', on page 17, mentions two names
>regarding this crash incident, namely:

>-  Barney Barnett; a civil engineer, and,

I think every book written about the Roswell case, from Bill
Moore's 'The Roswell Incident' to my 'UFO Crash At Roswell' to
Stan Friedman's 'Crash At Corona' mentions Barney Barnett. Each
makes it clear that no one interviewed Barnett because he had
died before any of us began to search for information. His tale
is well told by various relatives and friends such as Vern
Maltais, Alice Knight, Harold Baca and Fleck Danley.

 -  Glenn Dennis; the local undertaker in Roswell

Same as above except Dennis was not mentioned in Moore's book.
New information developed over the last two years, much of it
from the work of Vic Golubic, suggests that the Glenn Dennis
tale is not grounded in reality. Dennis had supplied a number of
us with the name of the nurse he claimed had told him of the
alien bodies, but extensive searches has failed to produce a
single bit of documentation about her existence. When Glenn was
confronted, he said that he had not given any of us the correct
name. That, to me, suggested that his story was not reliable.

>In addition, a group of archaeologists from the Univ. of
>Pennsylvania were _possibly_ at the 'crash site'.

Each of the above books has explored this. Again, a great deal
of work, much of it by Tom Carey, has shown that there were no
field teams from the University of Pennsylvania working in New
Mexico during the summer of 1947. Archaeological teams were from
University of Chicago and Harvard. At Chaco Canyon, there was a
team of univeristy students, one or two of whom were from
Pennsylvania, but the site was controlled through the University
of New Mexico. Dr. Curry Holden worked with students from Texas
Tech periodically, and for short periods in New Mexico all
during his career including the summer of 1947.

It was Jean Maltais who introduced the U of Penn. into the
discussion but no one seems to know why, or where she got the
information.

>He also mentions 'four (4) child-sized' coffins'.

I think Dennis said that the mortuary officer had inquired about
the availability of small, child sized coffins and was told they
had to be ordered from Amarillo because the funeral home did not
keep them in stock.

>Is there possibly any info. on Glenn Dennis, the local
>undertaker? And, was Barnett really a civil engineer?

Taking a page from Stan Friedman's work, there is a great deal
of information available on Glenn Dennis in the above mentioned
books. There is also later data in 'The Randle Report', which
details the failed search for the nurse.

I believe that Barnett was a soil conservation engineer, but
that might be a fine hair to split.

KRandle

http://randallreport.com








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               Kevin Randle on 'Strange Days...Indeed' Tonight

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 12:00:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 12:00:50 -0500
Subject: Kevin Randle on 'Strange Days...Indeed' Tonight




Kevin Randle will be our guest tonight on'Strange Days...Indeed' on
CFRB 1010 - see .sig below.

Those of you who are un-familiar with Kevin's work will want to
visit his site at:

http://randallreport.com






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                  Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 23:49:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 12:08:13 -0500
Subject: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>From: William Sawers <wsawers@ihug.co.nz>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 23:02:33 +1300

>One thing I would like to ask the list....

>"When did the term 'Have a nice day' appear?"

1970's, I believe. Of course, people could have started saying
it in the '60s, but the widespread -- unavoidable -- cloying --
use of the phrase is typically '70s. (There's a wonderful
multivolume CD colleciton of 70s music called "Have A Nice
Day.")

Greg Sandow






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:55:09 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 12:13:55 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: Ed Fouche <fouche@connecti.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re:New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 22:29:57 -0600

>>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:41:55 -0500 (EST)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:27:19 -0500
>>>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

><snip>

>>>Did we know about retro-virii in 1952?  Anyway, this section
>>>combined with the following report on p. 9:

>>Terry,

>>Linda Howe told me about these documents last month.  She had
>>gotten advance copies of them and read sections to me.

>>I was immediately wary when I heard that reference to
>>retrovirus.

>>No, we didn't know about retrovirus then.  The term was coined
>>in the late 70s.  We didn't know about them in the late 60s when

>>I was briefly involved in BW.

>>I think these documents are bogus.

>Under the 'Authentication' section of the Web page is an
>explanation of the term 'retrovirus' and how it had appeared
>used in a periodical article in that period.

>Ed Fouche
>Author of 'Alien Rapture'


I stand by my statement.  Just because the website with the
documents is self-verifying, that doesn't cut any ice with me.

Someone went to a lot of trouble to construct these documents,
but as we all know, there are people out there with all the time
in the world and hoaxing on their minds.

Bob

"The truth isn't really out there"






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                              Re: 'Phone Noise'

From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 14:25:33 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 12:18:29 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'


>Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 20:41:11 -0800
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'

>Personally, I believe that 99.999% of all telephone noise is
>just that, noise.

>Telephone tappers, the human variety, had noiseless techniques
>dating back to the 1930s, if not sooner. For every
>counter-measure, (voltage drop analysis for example) there was
>a counter-counter measure ( e.g. inductive or capacitive
>coupling, rather than a direct hard-wired tap.)

>Now, we are faced with the possibility of some alien race,
>perhaps thousands of years in advance our technology, who might
>want to 'listen-in' from time to time.

>If the reported performance of UFOs is any indication; nobody,
>not the finest electrical engineer will have the slightest clue.

>Unless, of course the aliens _want_ someone to know it, or
>suspect it at least.  A not so subtle sort of intimidation? A
>reminder to keep ones mouth shut perhaps?

>Ah .. I speculate too much.


I think you've hit the nail right on the head. If aliens or any
terrestrial security agency are telephone (& Internet) tapping
abductees & researchers, part of 'their' countermeasures would
surely be intimidation tactics?

An interesting analogy being the recent use of ancient U2
spyplanes over Iraq. I doubt these U2s are actually used for
'real' intelligence gathering, they're probably only used just
show up on Iraq radar! Why do this when much more sophisticated
& virually un-detectable means could have been used?(And are
being used) Obviously for intimidation of Sadam & his forces.

The same goes for all aspects of ufologY today.

Rest assured I am not connected with any security agencies in
any way. However I have been on the blunt end of these tactics
for many years as a researcher and the co-organiser of the
Woolwich UFO Research Group. These have become more blatant
recently as In have become more involved with TV, radio & press
in the UK. They include all the usual problems.

There is a long list, not just 'alledged' phone tapping, but
include having the phone actually cut on me while discussing
program details with TV companies. Obviously intercepted 'UFO'
mail (my own personal mail never appears to be touched), ie PC
discs/paperwork etc missing, while a cheque or postal order in
the same package is left!

In April this year my studio being broken into despite a central
station alarm, my computer  F-Disked & all my on-site back-ups
taken.... nothings else was stolen, the police could find no
evidence. Right down to the dustbin (I think you call them trash
cans over your way) being rifled at 2am (several local
witnesses) & being photographed taking my children to school
from parked cars (my kids find this funny). I personally put
this down to the security services & not aliens in my case
(despite the fact I am an abductee).

I don't feel intimidated, perhaps there is some way we can all
get together to fight it? Any ideas?

All the best    Marc Bell






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   Dec > Dec 6

                  Re: UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking!

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 10:56:59 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 12:23:39 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking!


>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 04:43:47 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net>
>Subject: Re: UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking!

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Date: Thu, 26 Nov 98 11:52:23 PST
>>Re: UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking!

>>I knew Allen Hynek fairly over the last 10 years of his life.
>>He was not an "intelligence agent," and he was, indeed, a kindly
>>old gent  who, with pipe in hand, had the interests of us all at
>>heart.  He also had a wonderful sense of humor.

>>He had his faults, as all of us do.  I think Jim McDonald was
>>right to criticize him for taking so long to challenge Blue
>>Book.  But in the end what counts is that he did it, with great
>>personal courage and at considerable professional cost.

>>I feel myself honored to have known the man.


>Thanks Jerry! You've just added a personal confirmation to the
>research I've done for the last 30 years regarding Dr. Hynek. I
>always felt what you said was correct.


I don't know if this will be of any help, but I also got to know
Dr. Hynek in the last year of his life.

I phoned him on about six different occassions and regardless of
what he was doing, unless it was a family event which demanded
his immediate attention, he was very kind and entertaining.

I questioned him about his book: 'The UFO Experience', as well
as the earlier "Swamp Gas" collar, which he managed to have
hung around his neck in the Hillsdale, Michigan sightings of
March, 1966, near the girls dormitory at Hillsdale College. He
just laughed and said he was pressed for an on the spot answer,
so he blurted out "swamp gass," because of the conditions in the
area...a statment which he long regretted making. <g>

He was always very polite and did not seem to mind the calls
from a 'fledgling' UFO investigator, like myself.

So, there is another personal testimony about Dr. Hynek's
personality and attitude toward UFO Research in general.

REgards, Mike


ICQ#:7508455.
(502) 683-6811






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   Dec > Dec 6

                        Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed...

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 11:43:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 19:33:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed...


>Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 01:33:53 -0800
>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....

>Michael, here are my 1.5 cents worth.

>I don't know how authentic this case may be, but I don't think
>obtaining his medical records should cause problems for him. I'm
>a disabled veteran on pension.

<snip>

>Here's a thought - perhaps I'll inquire to the VA whether any
>veteran ever claimed service connected disability for the
>results of UFO or alien activities?

>Joshman


Hi Josh...

Hey, that would be great. It might achieve the goal for both of
us.

This gentleman is very adament about not contacting his doctors.
He wants that part of his personal life to remain
uninvestigated.

I could speculate and say it is because it might throw his story
into the serious doubt catagory, but knowing the man as I do, I
don't think that is the reason at all. He is just a private
person.

I have always had a problem with his explaination about "loosing
his pension." The man is a self-made "millionare." Money
should not be a problem....I think and have always thought that
it was simply a thing of having "strangers" snooping into his
private affairs.  He is very sensitive to his "image." Sounds
funny doesn't it? He claims to be an abductee. Tells his story
to the local News Media, where I become aware of him, yet, still
doesn't want me to talk to his doctors...something which may
substantiate his story, OR give us another reason as to his
physical condition.

I have considered these things, but still, when I consider his
physical condition, I can't help but think that what he claims
may in fact be true.

REgards, Mike


ICQ#:7508455.
502) 683-6811






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   Dec > Dec 6

                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:53:29 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 19:36:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 11:24:01 PST

<snip>

>Note the ever-shifting, slippery nature of the psychosocial
>claim.  First we are told that it is the supposed predatory
>sexuality of Hispanics and blacks that this nation of bigots
>(as John would have us) fear.  Now, after Greg has shown the
>utter failure of such stereotypes to fit Jacobs's The Threat,
>John switches the discussion.  Now it turns out that our
>abductees take their supposed fantasies from Nazi-like
>images and fears.  One doesn't know whether to laugh or cry.

>Jerry Clark

Jerry, I'm getting a bit sick of this. This thread is archived
so people can look up for themselves where I called the USA a
nation of bigots, and if they find it will they please let me
know. It must have been in the same posting as where you called
the USA a multi-racial Utopia where all live in friendship and
brotherhood with no whisper of racial "concern" ever crossing
anyones lips!

I don't know if Jerry thinks that immigrants are strong, macho
and potent or are sly, wealthy and deceitful. Obviously he, and
I, think they are neither. My point was that there are a number
of stereotypes (mutually contradictory, that's one of the ways
we know they're nonsense) of predatory sexuality. Other mutually
contradictory stereotypes include "they're coming here to take
our jobs" and "they're coming here to live on social security".
They're stereotypes, they're nonsense, but the affect peoples
lives.

In my reply to Greg Sandow's last posting I join with him in
dropping this topic until and unless we get more hard data. We
have a start with Budd Hopkins' statistics, which seem to
confirm my original contention that there is an overwhelming
statistical bias towards white abductees. That's why it's
important that researchers should be prepared to record, and
publish, figures about the racial origins of their abductees,
without fear of being considered "politically incorrect".

--
John Rimmer
Magonia magazine





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:37:12 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 19:39:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 21:07:21 -0500

>>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:06:06 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

Greg asked:

>>>So how does fear of strong, macho, sexually potent immigrants
>>>transmute itself into fantasies of abduction by small, weak,
>>>hairless, unemotional, sexless aliens without any genitals?

I replied:

>>They are powerful through the near-magical technology they
>>employ to "steal our women". Loathsome Nazi sterotypes of Jews
>>depicted physically inferior figures gaining power over "Aryan"
>>women through slyness, money and deceit.

>Oh.

>Abductions are, we're told, a fantasy generated by white
>American fear of Hispanic immigrants.

I never said that. Abductions are a fantasy, period. My contention was
that some elements of the imagery employed in abduction narratives may
have been influenced by concerns about large-scale immigration of
"aliens". In the US context this would mean Hispanics, over the past
decade or so.

> The abduction aliens bear
>no resemblance to white stereotypes of Hispanics,

No, because a lot of other influences are involved as well. The
racial stereotype is the alleged sexually predatory nature of
the abductors.

>but that,
>we're told, doesn't matter. Other people in other places have
>had racist fantasies that _do_ rememble the abductors.

>There's no way to argue against this theory. It changes shape
>each time it defends itself. Of course, in my book that means
>you can't seriously argue for it, either. It's now telling me
>that white Americans express a racist fear of Hispanics by
>inventing -- for no conceivable reason -- fantasies that
>resemble the Nazi notion of Jews. That, in my book, meaans that
>this theory is too slippery to really mean anything.

Oh dear, I mentioned Nazi stereotypes of Jews to counter your
suggestion that sexually predatory stereotypes had to be
"strong, macho, [and] sexually potent"

>I rest my case.

>Returning for a blessed minute to the world of facts, I spoke to
>Budd Hopkins today, and found out the following. Very, very few
>of the abductees he's worked with have been black. It's a
>vanishingly small percentage -- perhaps 10 people out of more
>than 600.

>The Roper Poll numbers tell a different story. The percentage of
>blacks saying they'd had experiences that might indicate
>abduction is the same, Budd told me, as the percentage of
>whites. Of course, it hasn't been established that having those
>experiences means someone has been abducted.

>Still, I'll suggest one conclusion. Budd often meets the people
>he works with because they write to him. The letters show a
>consistent pattern -- people say they've had the experiences the
>Roper poll asked about. Because they saw Budd on TV or read one
>of his books, they decided to write to him, to find out (there's
>often a lot of emotion, and a lot of hesitation in this) whether
>alien abductions might possibly explain the experiences that
>they've had.

>These letter-writers, obviously, are overwhelmingly white. My
>conclusion, based on the Roper poll, is that just a high a
>proportion of blacks have had the experiences the letter-writers
>talk about. So blacks _could_ be writing these letters, and we
>now have to ask why they don't.

>Do they not read Budd's books and not watch him on TV? Do they
>see him on TV, but decide it's a white people thing? Do they see
>him and read him, but not write? What explains all this? Do they
>see Budd and read him, but decide -- unlike many white people --
>that abduction couldn't explain their experiences? Why?

It is clear that this _is_ an issue in the abduction debate, and
these questions need to be looked at seriously.

>To discuss this seriously, we'd need serious data. Can we find
>some similar area in which blacks and whites behave differently?
>A social worker who works with Budd suggested one in a
>conversation we had this morning. A much smaller proportion of
>blacks than whites, he said, seek psychotherapy.

>I'm going to leave this discussion here, unless someone suggests
>a very different theory, or comes up with some relevant data. I
>don't want to speculate any further without some real
>information.

The figures on this are important. It does seem that my original
contention, which started this thread about a hundred years ago,
was correct: there are far, far, fewer Black abductees than
White. The reasons for this are clearly psychological and
sociological. I agree with that the question now is one of hard
data. Like Greg, until more of this data comes along, I will
sign off on this topic.

-- John Rimmer, Magonia Magazine,





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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 13:10:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 19:42:24 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 04:35:36 -0600

>>Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 06:22:10 -0500
>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

>The bulk of Gary's remarks snipped because if you don't remember
>them, you can find them in the Ufomind Archive.

>Where do our own insights lead us?

>Bye...  Ted..

Ted,

Again you ignore the facts:

I never in my messages impugned the personal integrity of
J. Allen Hynek and Sherm Larsen.

That is, in the modern world J. Allen Hynek and Sherm Larsen
were possibly simply doing their job and completely loyal to
their immediate employers and to their country. The possibility
that to some people this loyalty was misplaced is simply not
relevant to this discussion. You and Jerry use this as a
diversion to draw attention away from the fact that Sherm Larsen
was in the CIC.

Once again intelligence professionals do their jobs and do them
well no matter their personal feelings.  While it may be true
that the morality of the possible actions above is questionable
it is of no consequence in the world of intelligence and
counterintelligence.

The fact of the matter is that Sherm Larsen was a member of the
U.S. Army Counterintelligence Corp during WWII and the CIC was
hip deep in UFO investigation in the early 1950s.

For readers unaware of the history of this era, I would just
like to add that during W.W.II Leonard Stringfield was himself
an intelligence officer in the 5th Air Force.  Let's listen to
him reminisce about his friend Sherm Larsen.

My quotation is from:  Leonard H. Stringfield, "Situation Red",
p. 207 Fawcett Crest Books, 1977.

Begin quotation:
---------------

When I visited the Center for UFO Studies in February 1975, I
spent an evening with Sherm Larsen, president of the
organization....

  { Here I have edited out a fascinating story not pertinent to
    the current discussion. - GA }

...Part II of the mystery: A close friend of Larsen's, during
Larsen's wartime years in the Counter Intelligence Corps, was an
attorney who worked for the government. In their chummy days,
his friend never revealed the confidential nature of his job,
even though he was aware of Larsen's work in the CIC.

By happenchance, Larsen, during a recent social get together
with his old friend, recalling his World War II experiences in
the CIC, learned to his surprise that his friend served in the
Security Intelligence Corps during the war. He also learned that
his friend's SIC office in Chicago was in the Museum of Science
and Industry!

End quotation. -------------

Ted please continue to illustrate my points with
your posts as I imagine readers will find this
very instructive.






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                          Re: Chrismas UFO-Cartoons

From: Dan Sayes <dsyes@micron.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 11:10:53 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 19:46:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Chrismas UFO-Cartoons


>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:43:43 -0500
>From: Werner Walter <113236.1604@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Chrismas UFO-Cartoons
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>Hi Everyone,

>I=B4m searching for ufological Chrismas-Cartoons. Can anyone send
>me such material in JPEG-format or can give me a URL on which I
>can find such material?

>Werner

Jeff Rense's 'Sightings on the Radio' web site currently has a
neat picture of grays entering the chimmney with some christmas
lights....The url is http://www.sightings.com/

Dan





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                          Re: Chrismas UFO-Cartoons

From: Dan Sayers <dsyes@micron.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 11:10:53 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 19:51:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Chrismas UFO-Cartoons


>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:43:43 -0500
>From: Werner Walter <113236.1604@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Chrismas UFO-Cartoons
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>Hi Everyone,

>I=B4m searching for ufological Chrismas-Cartoons. Can anyone send
>me such material in JPEG-format or can give me a URL on which I
>can find such material?

>Werner

Jeff Rense's 'Sightings on the Radio' web site currently has a
neat picture of grays entering the chimmney with some christmas
lights....The url is http://www.sightings.com/






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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 98 13:26:23 PST
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 20:00:07 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 06:22:10 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

>A few points of information for the readers of this list.

Yes, please enlighten us, guy.

>Occasionally things appear on this list that resemble classical
>propaganda.  I will use a recent example to illuminate the
>possible usage of these techniques in the UFO arena.

>One who uses propaganda does not confront the issues on their
>merits. What they attempt to do is provide a diversion from the
>central core of the issue through the sowing of doubt and
>personal attacks, thereby avoiding confronting important issues
>directly. Such propaganda succeeds with most people. However the
>readers of this list are not "most people!"

I knew it.  It was inevitable.  I _knew_ that, having no
factual, rational, or empirical base to support his weird
charges against Hynek and Larsen, Gary would have to start
hinting darkly that _I_ am part of the conspiracy.

<snip>

>A close friend of Larsen's, during
>Larsen's wartime years in the Counter Intelligence Corps, was an
>attorney who worked for the government. In their chummy days,
>his friend never revealed the confidential nature of his job,
>even though he was aware of Larsen's work in the CIC.

>By happenchance, Larsen, during a recent social get together
>with his old friend, recalling his World War II experiences in
>the CIC, learned to his surprise that his friend served in the
>Security Intelligence Corps during the war. He also learned that
>his friend's SIC office in Chicago was in the Museum of Science
>and Industry!

>End quotation. -------------

What is this supposed to be evidence of, Gary?  You have
established that Sherman Larsen, in common with thousands of
other veterans of World War II, served in the CIC.  So what?

<snip>

>*> This is not just silly, it's downright hilarious.

>GA>One of the common tools of the propagandist is to
>    begin with disparaging remarks thereby setting the
>    proper tone, that is the original message is to be
>    attacked at an emotional level right at the  beginning.

When one is reading something so phenomenally -- and, yes,
comically -- removed from reality as what you've been posting,
it would take a saint, and I have never pretended to be one, to
restrain from pointing out the silliness and hilarity of the
sentiment being expressed.

>>*   Sherm Larsen (not Larson) as secret agent?

>GA>One of the typical tools of the propaganda method
>following the emotional appeal is to point out one
>or two minor errors in the original message thereby
>attempting to establish a pattern or error in the
>original message.

As usual, Gary, you're seeing something that isn't there.  I was
simply pointing out that you'd misspelled Larsen's last name, a
small and understandable error. But the fact that you read so
much into this tiny matter tells me much about your mindset.


>Another common technique is to
>attempt to establish a spurious argument
>"the straw man", that is to impute to the original
>sender an argument that he did not make.  In this case
>the term "secret agent" is used with reference to
>Mr. Larsen.   A statement that did not appear in the
>original message. I said Sherm was a former member of
>the Counterintelligence Corp (CIC).  Now the CIC is not
>and has not ever been a secret organization.  Any
>historian of the intelligence services of the United
>States knows this and moreover it is even listed in
>the Encyclopedia Britannica, look for yourself.

C'mon, Gary.  Your implication was certainly a sinister one, and
"secret agent" is an entirely defensible paraphrase of your
argument, such as it is.  If your argument were to make sense,
if it were to have any logical coherence, which it hasn't so
far, you'd have to argue that because CIC isn't "secret," Sherm
Larsen would have openly acknowledged that he was funneling UFO
data to it (or its equivalent) from CUFOS.  To the contrary, you
would have us believe that he was an agent acting secretly.  You
clearly know something about straw-man arguments yourself, guy.

>Here we see a typical technique of the propagandist
>the use of the "straw man" to avoid a substantitative
>point, that is that Mr. Larsen was a former member of
>the CIC.  A fact not know to some of his closest
>associates.   However, in the case of Mr. Larsen as
>we shall see below the jump to the conclusion that
>Mr. Larsen was some kind of operative vis a vis. the
>UFO community may well be justified.

>*>  I knew Sherm very well.

>GA> Here the propagandist attempts to assert superior
>authority through association.

Actually, no, Gary.  It is superiority through knowledge, as
opposed to inferiority through ignorance.  You simply don't know
what you're talking about, a point you seem determined to prove
over and over again.


>The spuriousness
>of this technique is shown above in Stringfield's
>quote where Stringfield matter of factly reports
>that Larsen was in the CIC.  What is most interesting
>is Stringfield's reporting of Larsen's relationship
>with his friend the lawyer, that Larsen never knew
>his own friend was in the Security Intelligence Corp
>the (SIC).  Here we see the fact that former
>intelligence operatives rarely reveal their past
>associations except  to very close friends or other
>veterans of the intelligence profession.

So?  What's your point?  Where's your evidence that Larsen was
serving as an Air Force cover-up agent in his role as ufologist?
Are all your slanders this casually based in facts, evidence,
and logic?  Does your conscience ever, even if only once in a
while, whisper that you ought not to be leveling gross
accusations without good and clear reason against persons who
may very well be innocent?

>*>:  My ex-wife (at the time my fiance) worked as his
>secretary for several years, and I'd see him several
>times a week.

>GA>Once again we have an appeal to superior authority
>through association.  One of the principal methods

>of propaganda is repetition.  If a spurious argument
>is repeated often enough the hope is that people will
>believe it.

Let me repeat, Gary:  You are spreading foolish and unfounded
nonsense.  Worst of all, you are slandering the good names and
reputations of persons you do not know and know nothing of.
Your indifference to the truth of the matters at issue is -- to
one who was there, who actually _knew_ the people (proof, by
Gary-logic, that I must be a propagandist) -- positively
breathtaking.

>*>:  _Nobody_ who knew him would _ever_ mistake him for
>anything other than what he was: a hard-working,
>unimaginative George F. Babbitt type of average
>intelligence and conventional views, an insurance
>agent by profession and a living personification
>of every stereotype associated with that calling.
>(No offense to you insurance agents out there;
>yours is a perfectly honorable occupation,
>but you know what I mean probably better than anybody.)

>GA>Here the repetition of the spurious argument amounts
>to near incoherence.  That is, what better cover is could
>there be for an operative or agent in place than as a
>staid, solid, middle-class professional, especially in
>a white, middle-class field like ufology.

Here the repeitition of the spurious argument amounts to near
incoherence.  Gary clearly believes in the Newspeak/ Doublespeak
dictum that ignorance is strength.

>Those who would believe that intelligence operatives
>in any way resemble James Bond are seriously deficient
>in their tradecraft.

>*>:  Sherm had practical managerial skills, of which Allen
>possessed zero, and these skills did much to keep CUFOS
>functioning from day to day.

>GA>An excellent point because as Vallee shows in Forbidden
>Science Hynek was not a detail person at all.  For
>instance Vallee notes that Hynek's UFO files were a mess.
>For that reason Hynek would have had to been paired with
>a staid, stolid professional able to perform the day to
>day tasks required.

So?

>*>:  Allen didn't put him "in charge." He wanted to start a UFO
>organization but didn't want to go through the hassle of
>incorporation procedures. Sherm suggested to him that he
>simply take over Public Education Group (PEG), a local
>flying-saucer discussion group Sherm had led for some years
>in the Chicago area; Allen agreed, insisting on the name
>Center for UFO Studies.

>GA>Here a possible propagandist tool is seen full blown.
>The use of a fact as the opposite of its true import.
>That is, how interesting that Mr. Larsen, former CIC
>operative, had been running a UFO organization for several
>years in the Chicago area.  This could be viewed, in
>light of the long association of the CIC with UFO
>investigation, as establishing an agent in place, waiting
>for the opportunity to become truly useful.

Gary, get a grip.  Again: where is your evidence?  It "could be
viewed," too, that you are leveling the sorts of accusations,
and applying the sort of logic, ordinarily associated with
crackpots.

>This is routine domestic intelligence security procedure
>as should be well known to every American conversant with
>recent history.  The  opportunity for usefulness appeared
>after Dr. Hynek "cooled" for several years following the
>dreaded "swamp gas" incident which had ended his credibility
>in the UFO arena.  But suddenly in 1973 a new Hynek, not
>unlike the "new" Nixon, arose from the ashes of Michigan
>at the head of a new "independent" organization dedicated
>to the scientific investigation of the UFO.  This could
>be viewed as the classical example of the redeployment
>of an intelligence asset.

Where is your evidence?

>*>:  The unremarkable story, which no one who was there at the
>time disputes, is related by Larsen in "The Founding of
>CUFOS," IUR, May/June 1986, pp. 13-14.  Sherm had nothing
>to do with the setting of CUFOS policy, except in his
>capacity as a board member, where (with two exceptions,
>one noted below; the other, which involved a personality
>conflict, is irrelevant here) he tended to vote with
>everybody else.

>GA>Once again our possible propagandist has advanced a
>diversionary argument.  Yes it is an unremarkable story.
>Why shouldn't it be.  If Messrs. Larsen and Hynek were
>acting as operatives in establishing CUFOS they hardly
>would have bought space in the Chicago Tribune advertising
>that fact.  Is that they way it would have been done,
>hardly.  The original message said nothing about CUFOs
>policy.  This could be viewed as a distraction.

Speaking of "distractions," I can only assume that you're
engaged in one so that you can continue to duck this question:

Where is your evidence?

>*>C: Sherm left CUFOS after Allen's death.  The rest of us board
>members, mostly younger men than Sherm (who was in his 70s,
>and retired from his day job), wanted to move headquarters
>from a strip mall in out-of-the-way Glenview into a more
>accessible office on Chicago's north side.  Sherm wanted
>to stay in Glenview, which was also where he lived.
>When Sherm was outvoted, he resigned and thereafter had no
>contact with the organization.   We didn't even know
>he'd died till several weeks after it happened.

>GA>The most interesting aspect of the above section is
>the possible information that when one member of the team
>died the other one soon found reason to move along.

Uh, yeah.  Fascinating, I'm sure.  Where's your evidence?

>That is, if the two men had been paired like horses in a
>team then one was of little use without the other,
>especially considering their ages.  It is a fact that in
>many intelligence operations when the visible operative is
>incapacitated or dies, the control agent is retired from
>the operation.  Sometimes old agents don't go out in a
>blaze of glory.  They get to retire too.

So do ordinary people, Gary.  Even ufologists.

>*>:  Sherm was basically a good guy, and he deserves credit for
>his contributions, not censure on the fantastic and absurd
>grounds that he was some kind of double agent.

>GA:   One of the things that our propagandist is implying is that
>the original message impugned the personal integrity of
>J. Allen Hynek and Sherm Larsen.

Gee, where would we get that idea?

>This issue though of
>some import is one that is open to interpretation.
>That is, in the modern world J. Allen Hynek and Sherm
>Larsen were possibly simply doing their job and completely
>loyal to their immediate employers and to their country.

That they were loyal to their country I have no doubt.  That
they were loyal to CUFOS and to serious UFO study, I have no
doubt, either.  Gary, as he has abundantly demonstrated once
again, has not an iota of evidence suggesting the contrary.
Alas, that won't stop him.  Look for an even less coherent
posting in response to my words here.

>Readers of this list must unfortunately be constantly on their
>guard against such attacks as they seem to be so prevalent as
>the above exposition has shown.

>Our putative propagandist concludes his message with further
>disparaging remarks about the sender, employing the tool of
>repetition.  The original sender was advised to do some soul
>searching apparently with the goal of reform in mind.  However
>it might be better that our propagandist brush up on his
>tradecraft with a refresher course as his skills seem to have
>eroded recently.

Gary,  you are clearly insinuating -- utterly predictably, of
course -- that I am an agent of the cover-up as well. You are
reduced to these sorts of cracked and sleazy innuendoes for a
simple reason.  You find it necessary to detract readers'
attention from your embarrassing failure to provide a single
item of real evidence to back up your nasty slanders against two
honorable men who served us all well, namely Allen Hynek and
Sherman Larsen.

I'd tell you again to search your soul if I thought you were
capable of that sort of sustained introspection.  Your most
recent communication, fact-free and paranoia-full as
always, makes it sadly apparent that you are incapable
of such.

Frankly, I have no reason to believe you have the slightest
interest in learning of the prosaic reality of the role of Hynek
and Larsen, but I trust that the rest of you are getting an
eyeful here in the dangers of slander and paranoia.

Gary's mindset brings to mind a title from an article that
appeared in Saucer News many years ago:

Diagnosis: a case of chronic fright.

Sadly,

Jerry Clark






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 18:45:00 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 20:08:14 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: Ed Fouche <fouche@connecti.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re:New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 22:29:57 -0600

>>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:41:55 -0500 (EST)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>

>>>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:27:19 -0500
>>>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

><snip>

>>>Did we know about retro-virii in 1952?  Anyway, this section
>>>combined with the following report on p. 9:

>>No, we didn't know about retrovirus then.  The term was coined
>>in the late 70s.  We didn't know about them in the late 60s when

>>I was briefly involved in BW.

>>I think these documents are bogus.

>Under the 'Authentication' section of the Web page is an
>explanation of the term 'retrovirus' and how it had appeared
>used in a periodical article in that period.


All,

I've found these documents most interesting buy was suspicious
of the use of "retrovirus", seemed out of place. BUT I found the
following after a brief search of a couple of medical type
sites, thought you all might be interestead.

Seems they do go back quite a way.

Neil.



----------------------------------------------------------------
Tutorial "borrowed" from the Uni of Leicester UK

http://www-micro.msb.le.ac.uk/335/Retroviruses.html


Retroviruses

Introduction:

Retroviruses have received much attention in recent years (even
before the discovery of the first human retrovirus in 1981), but
they have a long history:

1904: Ellerman and Bang, searching for an infectious cause
(bacterium) for leukaemia, studied leukaemia in chickens and
succeed in transferring the disease from one to another by
cell-free tissue filtrates.

1905: Paul Ehrlich proposed his theory of 'immune surveillance':

Tumour cells frequently emerge in the organism
They are rapidly eliminated by the immune system

1911: Peyton Rous transmitted solid tumours of chickens by
transplanting tissue, but also isolated the infectious agent
(RSV). This discovery was followed by many other examples of
acutely transforming retroviruses, together with the structural
characterization of the viruses involved.

1960's: Howard Temin knew that retrovirus genomes were composed
of RNA and observed that replication was inhibited by
actinomycin D (inhibits DNA synthesis therefore he proposed the
concept of reverse transcription (Nobel prize awarded to
Baltimore and Temin, 1975).

1969: Huebner and Todaro proposed the viral oncogene hypothesis
- the transmission of viral and oncogenic information as genetic
elements (rather than as a pathogenic response to a virus) -
explains the vertical (germ line) transmission of 'cancers',
first observed by Gross, 1951.

1970s: Richard Nixon's 'war on cancer' (post Kennedy space
programme - the race to the moon) - failed to find any
retroviral agents which cause human cancer (many false alarms -
but did pump a lot of money into biomedical research).

1981: Human T-cell leukaemia virus discovered, the first
pathogenic human retrovirus.

1983: Human immunodeficiency virus discovered.

Most of the retroviruses we currently know (many!) infect
vertebrates, but as a group, they have been identified in
virtually all organisms including invertebrates - evolutionarily
successful design!

----------------------------------------------------------------
Found via links from the above site.
-----------------------------------------

[Retrovirus and cancer revisited].

[Article in Spanish]

Dosne Pasqualini C

Division Medicina Experimental, ILEX-CONICET, Academia Nacional
de Medicina, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

The discovery of RNA oncoviruses dates back to 1911 when Rous
isolated the avian virus which is the cause of the sarcoma which
bears his name and to 1936 when Bittner related the "milk
factor" to the development of murine mammary cancer.

During the 50s, the successive descriptions of virus-induced
sarcoma-leukemias in mice led to the oncogene theory and
gradually to the postulation of a viral origin of cancer. The
discovery of the reverse transcriptase in 1970 led to the
establishment of the Retroviridae family including both onco and
lentiviruses.

The decade of the 80s was marked by three fundamental
discoveries which altered the concept of oncovirus:

1) oncogenes became established as part of the cellular genome
converting retroviruses into occasional vectors of the oncogene;

2) as the T cell growth factor, interleukin-2, became available,
the first human oncovirus, HTLV-I, was isolated and proved to be
the cause of adult T cell leukemia;

3) HIV was isolated and classified as a lentivirus and as the
cause of AIDS.

A few years later the antioncogenes were discovered. Both
oncogenes and anti-oncogenes were found to collaborate in the
cell cycle, maintaining an equilibrium between proliferation and
apoptosis.

Today the viral theory has been replaced by the gene theory of
cancer which postulates that neoplastic transformation is the
result of a cascade of events which include uncorrected DNA
errors, blocking of apoptosis, activation of oncogenes and
deletion of antioncogenes. At the present time, the intriguing
question for retrovirologists is the role played by endogenous
retroviruses which in man occupy up to 0.1% of the cellular
genome.

Publication Types:

Historical article

PMID: 9567340, UI: 98228738


-------------------------------------------------------

Neil Morris@Home.
Email: Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk






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                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:49:53 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 09:24:51 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


>From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: How To Film An Abduction
>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:04:18 -0500

Rick,

You want low tek, how bout this one? ;)

An extremely strong type of double-sided tape, possibly the type
used to secure carpeting to the floor, could be purchased in a
few square feet and secured to the ground on a proper location
to entrap an intruder (especially a feeble li'l grey).  We've
dubbed this the "alien-paper" method.

<grin>

Best, Tim





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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 07:44:11 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 09:49:28 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:05:30 -0500
>From: Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
>Subject: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments:

>>From: David RudiakDRudiak@aol.com
>>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 19:10:31 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>For once one of the Klass Klowns has it right.

>Oh, gosh, thanks. In this case it would be hard to get it wrong.
>Repeating what I said in greater detail was helpful too.

><snip>

>>generally viruses infect more narrowly.  E.g.,
>>infectivity of  viruses like Ebola and HIV
>>is restricted to primates.

<snip>

>Not that I'm dismissing the possibility that several hoaxers may
>have been at work, or the possibility that, seeing David R's
>take on their efforts, they are falling about with gleeful
>guffaws. Made me laugh, anyway.


Unbelievable. Several hoaxers? have you read the semi-literate
script in these documents? A fourteen year old with a fairly old
typewriter could have made this nonsense up.....

....and probably did.

>Historical Note: Newcomers to the List may not know that David
>Rudiak is moderately famous for suggesting that my tome "UFO:
>The Government Files" was a disinfo job funded by an agency of
>unspeakable furtiveness - because he thought the paper it was
>printed on was of _suspiciously_high_quality_. Zooks!

Oh God! That means my book is similarly funded by spookdom.

If only.

Tim X







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                   Security [was:'New' MJ-12 Documents...]

From: Sean Jones <Tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 08:33:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 09:41:44 -0500
Subject: Security [was:'New' MJ-12 Documents...]


>Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 21:06:12 -0800
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

Larry commented

>I like Jan Aldrich's idea: Use a dummy/temporary/free
>email address, if you are curious. I'm not even going to do
>that, but hope others do, so we can all learn the nature of
>_this_ murky little operation.


If you people want to take a look at this site, I did. Use my
Humbug of an email BOGUS@AOL.COM it works!

The graphics are cute, the pages are well presented the content
...well, I'll leave that for you to decide.

As for backups, after a disaster last year I run two
hard-drives. One with all the OS and application software on and
one with all my database UFO files and etc etc on it. I also run
dedicated security/anti-hacking software just to be on the safe
side.

---
    In an infinite universe inifinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
         Research page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/





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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 07:47:40 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 09:59:23 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: Ed Fouche <fouche@connecti.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re:New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 22:29:57 -0600

>>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:41:55 -0500 (EST)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:27:19 -0500
>>>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

><snip>

>>>Did we know about retro-virii in 1952?  Anyway, this section
>>>combined with the following report on p. 9:

>>Terry,

>>Linda Howe told me about these documents last month.  She had
>>gotten advance copies of them and read sections to me.

She seems to be the major target for this kind of disinformation
having succumbed to the errant nonsense of one "kewper" some
months ago. According to UK author Derek Sheffield she also knew
about a British UFO flap several weeks in advance (!!). Given
her interesting relationship with Richard Doty I think that she
has obviously been used as a conduit for the worst kind of
ET-human contact fantasy.

No doubt to cover-up numerous black projects.......or something
similar.

>>I was immediately wary when I heard that reference to
>>retrovirus.

>>No, we didn't know about retrovirus then.  The term was coined
>>in the late 70s.  We didn't know about them in the late 60s when

>>I was briefly involved in BW.

>>I think these documents are bogus.

Good for you Ed!






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 07:50:31 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:11:08 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 21:28:08 -0800
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Dear Roger:

>You have provided another clue to this mysterious website,
>one which has possibly chilling undertones. Please see below:

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 23:24:00 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>Hello, list...

>>Well, I'd love to give my input and opinion about the New MJ-12
>>Documents....But I can't get into the damn website!

>>Actually, I CAN. But I've been bumped off 6 times in a row and
>>it's getting to be a REAL drag.

>>I swear I've only been able to stay online for about 30 seconds
>>before it throws me off ..

>>and my Internet connection crashes...again and again.

<snip>

> SAVE all your hard work before you lose it to this or some
>other 'problem'.

Hi there Roger and co.

Yes, I have had the same problems over here in Sunny Southport
whilst downloading the "new" MJ-12 fantasy. Having hoped for an
enjoyable weekend of side-splitting amusement whilst reading
this latest twaddle my computer totally froze and needed serious
attention yesterday. Zetnet, the ISP, were at a loss to explain
what had happened - as was my rather expert computer programmer
friend.....





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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 07:55:49 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:19:08 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 05:23:44 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

<snip>


>These documents were obtained by Dr. Robert Wood and his son,
>Ryan. They gave the first public presentation on these documents
>announcing them to the public at the Omega Communications
>conference, The UFO Experience,  held in Connecticut back on
>October 11, 1998.  They gave an approximately hour long
>presentation on the documents at that conference.  A video tape
>of that presentation can be obtained from John White of Omega
>Communications as all presentations of that conference were
>video taped.

Which might well indicate the provenance of this crap....if the
real source is not made public then this latest batch of
semi-literate pseudo-scientific nonsense is beneath comment.
Can't these hoaxers study some real documents and make a better
effort....? This 'new' MJ-12 material reads like bad X-Files
fantasy.....

<snip>

>These documents are by Germann's information classification:

>"Class IX:  Written accounts, documents, photos, etc., including
>so-called "secret documents," without direct attribution.  Much
>of the new wave of UFO material falls here.  Evaluation depends
>on the credibility of the visible source, support from other
>sources and investigator experience.

Exactly.







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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:13:53 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:37:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Sat, 05 Dec 98 11:24:01 PST

<snip>

>Note the ever-shifting, slippery nature of the psychosocial
>claim.  First we are told that it is the supposed predatory
>sexuality of Hispanics and blacks that this nation of bigots
>(as John would have us) fear.  Now, after Greg has shown the
>utter failure of such stereotypes to fit Jacobs's The Threat,
>John switches the discussion.  Now it turns out that our
>abductees take their supposed fantasies from Nazi-like
>images and fears.  One doesn't know whether to laugh or cry.

>Jerry Clark


John, Jerry, List and any other entities who may be lurking...

In answer to the last question.....
>One doesn't know whether to laugh or cry>

Try thinking about it!  Then, after your intellect has had a
chance to get used to the idea (the above idea) you may
at that time decide whether tis nobler in the mind to laugh,
cry or just stare.

For me, the latter is most often the best state to be in.  I
find that vegetating mindlessly after some heavy duty thinking
is extremely relaxing.  Gives the brain a chance to gather
itself up from the passing storm.

I recommend it highly, to anyone who has just thought about
something.  And it's so easy to do.  Just make your mind a total
blank.  And judging from some of the posts I read here, this is
not a difficult thing to do.  In fact, I can tell that some of
us on this list do exactly that while posting.

For those who practice this art, I can tell you from personal
experience, it is a lot easier to do than meditation.  _And_
there is another benefit, you can do this very same thing
when _reading_ certain posts.

Hell, I do that a lot here.

Dr. Jaime Gesundt,
Canal Street UFO Researcher,
MBA, Ph.D., M.O.U.S.E (Come Louder)
I will sell no wine, until it's ready!





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:48:50 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:43:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 21:07:21 -0500

>>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:06:06 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>>>So how does fear of strong, macho, sexually potent immigrants
>>>transmute itself into fantasies of abduction by small, weak,
>>>hairless, unemotional, sexless aliens without any genitals?

>>They are powerful through the near-magical technology they
>>employ to "steal our women". Loathsome Nazi sterotypes of Jews
>>depicted physically inferior figures gaining power over "Aryan"
>>women through slyness, money and deceit.

>Oh.

>Abductions are, we're told, a fantasy generated by white
>American fear of Hispanic immigrants. The abduction aliens bear
>no resemblance to white stereotypes of Hispanics, but that,
>we're told, doesn't matter. Other people in other places have
>had racist fantasies that _do_ rememble the abductors.

<snip>

Greg, John, List...

I had a personal friend I went to school with from the fourth
grade thru High school.  We shared nearly everything there was
to share.  Our friendship was one of those little miracles that
life occasionally, all _too_ occasionally, serves up as if in
apology for the rest of the crap we mortals have to put up
with..... sorry I ended the sentence in a prostitution,
proposition ... whatever...

Anyway, I found (and my friend did as well) my soul mate, as
much as a coupla kids were able to do in those days from 1950
thru to a few years ago.

We shared some of our alleged (we were doing the alleging)
experiences with each other.  We shared some sightings together
as well, and I strongly suspect that we may have shared a great
deal more than merely the sighting, as the fog indicates may
have been the case ... the fog in my mind which cannot generate
total recall as yet.

This friend once told me that blacks do not like to expose that
one nerve which so many blacks have left, the one which many
whites usually like to get on...

As a result, they tend not to do certain things which could
cause even more exposure of that very sensitive nerve.  "After
all," said he to me, " ... it's bad enough blacks carry the
reason for prejudice on their faces, why make it worse?"

Maybe that's a part of the reason, Greg?

This man, my friend, was not an authority on blacks, but I trust
his judgment.  After college, my friend became a police officer.
A NY State Trooper.  Very important, very high profile and very
underpaid as jobs go.  I remained friends with "Tony" until his
last day on this planet.  At table at his house or mine we
discussed the various sightings which citizens reported to the
state police all the time.

His orders were to take the information, and, unless there was
injury, property damage or some other compelling reason, not to
make a report!  How's that for our democratic bulls--it society?

Kindly excuse my anger because the rest of the story may justify
the expletive.....

I will never forget him.

One day, at graduation from grade school, (a parochial Marist
school) Tony and I were proudly displaying our diplomas when his
dad introduced himself to my dad.  I looked up at the man.  And
suddenly I discovered that he was a Negro (in those days the
work "black" had not been coined).

I looked at Tony and said, "You're a Negro too!"  See, I did not
even see that there was a difference.  Interesting or naive? You
judge for yourself.  He was my best man.  I loved him.  I was
godfather to each of his three kids.  Still am.  Rosie and I
have no children of our own.

One day, at school, high school.  Someone called Tony a nigger.
Tony didn't do a thing or say a thing.  I went ballistic and
beat the living stuffing out of this guy.  First and last time I
did that.

Tony died recently, at the hand of another black man who shot
him while screaming that "N" word at him.  Interesting that it
was the last word he heard before dying, isn't it?

What does this have to do with the thread?  Tony told me often
about the trials and tribulations of being black and a cop.  Of
the name calling and the general disparagement.  I suspect that
the reason Tony gave for blacks not coming forth may have been
that which he embraced.  Just don't make yourself look worse
than some folks tend to think you already are..... crazy on top
of black. It's a great life, as long as you don't give in.





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               M-12' - Robert & Ryan Wood on Art Bell Tonight

From: Debbie Stock <destock@pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 11:49:38 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 20:26:20 -0500
Subject: M-12' - Robert & Ryan Wood on Art Bell Tonight


Friends

Robert Wood, Ph.D. and Ryan Wood have authenticated documents
relating to Recovery of Craft and Extraterrestrials. Hear them
on Art Bell tonight. I've posted info here:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/8827/bob.html
Debbie Stock






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                         Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:02:50 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 20:34:50 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer


>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer
>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 22:22:01 -0800

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer
>>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 03:58:17 EST

>>Oh, and BTW, tell me if you don't know the story about the
>>real Canal Street in NYC...

>>Jim

>Dear Jim and Updates,

>Sounds like a great idea to me. And by the way, though I live a
>mere three blocks away, I don't think that I know the story
>about the "real Canal Street in NYC..."

>-Scott C. Carr
>Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
>www.erols.com/sardonica
>
>Producer, "UFO Desk"
>99.5 FM WBAI, NY
================================>


Dear Scott, list and all other entities...

Scott, you don't know the story 'cause you're just a
whipper-snapper (as he says thru his naked gums).

Before the World Trade Center, Canal Street, Cortland Street and
the surrounding area was one big War Surplus shopping center.
There, you found every conceivable sort of "thing" you ever
wanted but didn't need.  You even found "stuff" you _did_ need.

As a ham radio operator during the fifties, a bunch of us would
jump on the train and scour the hundreds of war surplus
electronics stores which flooded the area.  You got "such a deal
you wouldn't belyeeve!"  We came home with BC454 ARC radios for
the sum of five bucks, with a power supply.  Those radios flew
in WW2 in every bomber and nearly every recon plane, along with
a matching BC454 transmitter.  Cooling fans, tubes (yes,
dadgarnit _tubes_), resistors, caps, chassis, stuff you didn't
know they made and all manner of good stuff.

I still have mine (ARC 5). I haven't had to change a tube in
30 years! Five bucks!  It cost the gubbament zillions!

We came home with enough surplus, cheap surplus I might add, to
build our own equipment... which we did.

And to add to that, you got the world's _best_ lime rickey for a
nickel.... God help me but I loved that place.  But, they then
paved paradise, and put up a world trade center for some slope
head to bomb.

What nerve!

Jim Mortellaro, AKA, Dr. Gesundt
fon Canal Street





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                    Re: -=[For The Record]=- C-E: Roswell

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:20:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 20:40:51 -0500
Subject: Re: -=[For The Record]=- C-E: Roswell



>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 09:22:02 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: -=[For The Record]=- C-E: Roswell Archaeologists

>>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:40:32 +0100
>>Subject: Re: -=[For The Record]=- C-E: Roswell Archaeologists

<snip>

>>Is there possibly any info. on Glenn Dennis, the local
>>undertaker? And, was Barnett really a civil engineer?

>Taking a page from Stan Friedman's work, there is a great deal
>of information available on Glenn Dennis in the above mentioned
>books. There is also later data in 'The Randle Report', which
>details the failed search for the nurse.

>I believe that Barnett was a soil conservation engineer, but
>that might be a fine hair to split.

>KRandle

>http://randallreport.com


There is no question that Barney was an engineer working for the
Soil Conservation Department of the United States. I talked to
people who worked with him.They had offices in Socorro and
Mgdalena then. I think they have one in Datil now.

I cannot say for sure he was a civil engineer or whether there
was a separate category of Soil Conservation Engineer.

Stan Friedman






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                                     Re:

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 20:37:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 20:37:25 -0500
Subject: Re:

To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 16:43:34 -0500


>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:55:09 -0500 (EST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>From: Ed Fouche <fouche@connecti.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re:New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 22:29:57 -0600

>I stand by my statement.  Just because the website with the
>documents is self-verifying, that doesn't cut any ice with me.

>Someone went to a lot of trouble to construct these documents,
>but as we all know, there are people out there with all the time
>in the world and hoaxing on their minds.
>

Bob and Ed,

Modern technology makes marvels.

I am not myself a crack in computer generated images, but I
achieved the included original-looking document with Photoshop
5.0, in 40 minutes and with a glass of wine.

I first pasted one of David Rudiak's recent post about the MJ-12
documents (for the pertinence of the information).  I hope David
doesn't kill me for that.

Different parts of the image have been doctored with different
filters: spherize, craquelures, photocopy, gaussian blur, film
grain, etc.

Imagine what a dedicated forger with beer and more time can
achieve.

Serge Salvaille

 FORGING.GIF





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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:26:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 20:45:33 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:55:09 -0500 (EST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>I stand by my statement.  Just because the website with the
>documents is self-verifying, that doesn't cut any ice with me.

>Someone went to a lot of trouble to construct these documents,
>but as we all know, there are people out there with all the time
>in the world and hoaxing on their minds.

>Bob

>"The truth isn't really out there"

I think we would be way ahead of the game if we looked at each
document separately rather than generalizing. As I pointed out
in TOP SECRET/MAJIC, I am convinced that one document From
General Marshall to Truman via Humelsine is legitimate and
another from Marshall to Humelsine is not.. Guilt or genuiness
by association is not a good research tool.

Stan Friedman





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              Laser Provides First 3-D View Of Mars' North Pole

From: NASANews@hq.nasa.gov
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:50:17 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 20:56:57 -0500
Subject: Laser Provides First 3-D View Of Mars' North Pole

Douglas Isbell
Headquarters, Washington, DC                  December 7, 1998
(Phone:  202/358-1547)

Cynthia M. O'Carroll
Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, MD
(Phone:  301/614-5563)

Diane Ainsworth
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
(Phone:  818/354-5011)

RELEASE:  98-219

LASER PROVIDES FIRST 3-D VIEW OF MARS' NORTH POLE
 Measurements by a laser altimeter instrument orbiting aboard
NASA's Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft are providing striking
new views of the north pole of the red planet and the processes
that have shaped it.

     This first three-dimensional picture of Mars' north pole
enables scientists to estimate the volume of its water ice cap
with unprecedented precision, and to study its surface
variations and the heights of clouds in the region for the first
time.

     The elevation measurements were collected by the Mars
Orbiter Laser Altimeter (MOLA) aboard Global Surveyor during the
spring and summer of 1998, as the spacecraft orbited Mars in an
interim elliptical orbit.  MOLA sends laser pulses toward the
planet and measures the precise amount of time before the
reflected signals are received back at the instrument.  From
this data, scientists can infer surface and cloud heights.

     Approximately 2.6 million of these laser pulse measurements
were assembled into a topographic grid of the north pole with a
spatial resolution of .6 miles (one kilometer) and a vertical
accuracy of 15-90 feet (5-30 meters).  A peer-reviewed paper
based on the measurements will be published in the Dec. 11 issue
of Science magazine.

     The topographic map reveals that the ice cap is about 750
miles (1,200 kilometers) across, with a maximum thickness of 1.8
miles (3 kilometers).  The cap is cut by canyons and troughs
that plunge to as deep as 0.6 miles (1 kilometer) beneath the
surface.  "Similar features do not occur on any glacial or polar
terrain on Earth," said Dr. Maria Zuber of the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology and NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center,
Greenbelt, MD.  "They appear to be carved by wind and
evaporation of ice."

     The MOLA data also reveal that large areas of the ice cap
are extremely smooth, with elevations that vary by only a few
feet over many miles.  In some areas the ice cap is surrounded
by large mounds of ice, tens of miles across and up to half a
mile in height.  "These structures appear to be remnants of the
cap from a time when it was larger than at present," Zuber said.
Impact craters surrounding the cap appear to be filled with ice
and dust that was either deposited by wind or condensation, or
perhaps remains from an earlier period when the ice cap was
larger.

     The shape of the polar cap indicates that it is composed
primarily of water ice, with a volume of 300,000 cubic miles
(1.2 million cubic kilometers).  The cap has an average
thickness of 0.64 miles (1.03 kilometers) and covers an area 1.5
times the size of Texas.  For comparison, the volume of the
Martian north polar cap is less than half that of the Greenland
ice cap, and about four percent of the Antarctic ice sheet.

     The estimated volume of the north ice cap is about 10 times
less than the minimum volume of an ancient ocean that some
scientists believe once existed on Mars.  If a large body of
water once existed on the red planet, the remainder of the water
must presently be stored below the surface and in the much
smaller south polar cap, or have been lost to space.  But such a
large amount of unaccounted-for water is not easily explained by
current models of Martian evolution.

     During its mapping of the north polar cap, the MOLA
instrument also made the first direct measurement of cloud
heights on the red planet.  Reflections from the atmosphere were
obtained at altitudes from just above the surface to more than
nine miles (approximately 15 kilometers) on about 80 percent of
the laser profiles.  Most clouds were observed at high
latitudes, at the boundary of the ice cap and surrounding
terrain.

     Clouds observed over the polar cap are likely composed of
carbon dioxide that condenses out of the atmosphere during
northern hemisphere winter.  Many clouds exhibit dynamic
structure probably caused by winds interacting with surface
topography, much as occurs on Earth when winds collide with
mountains to produce turbulence.

     The principal investigator for MOLA is Dr. David E. Smith
of Goddard.  The MOLA instrument was designed and built by the
Laser Remote Sensing Branch of Laboratory for Terrestrial
Physics at Goddard.  The Mars Global Surveyor Mission is managed
by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA, for the NASA
Office of Space Science.

     Further information about MOLA and images created from its
measurements of the north pole are available on the Internet at
the following address:
http://ltpwww.gsfc.nasa.gov/tharsis/mola.html  A color image of
the north pole from the camera aboard Mars Global Surveyor is
available at:
http://www.msss.com/mars/global_surveyor/camera/images/MENUS/poles
_list.html

                             -end-

                            * * *

NASA press releases and other information are available
automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to
domo@hq.nasa.gov. In the body of the message (not the subject
line) users should type the words "subscribe press-release" (no
quotes).  The system will reply with a confirmation via E-mail
of each subscription.  A second automatic message will include
additional information on the service. NASA releases also are
available via CompuServe using the command GO NASA.  To
unsubscribe from this mailing list, address an E-mail message to
domo@hq.nasa.gov, leave the subject blank, and type only
"unsubscribe press-release" (no quotes) in the body of the
message.





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                         The Roswell Declaration #2

From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com>
Date: 06 Dec 1998 21:43:00 CET
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 21:00:30 -0500
Subject: The Roswell Declaration #2


Hello Errol, Hello List!

A short time ago, I gave you an update to the Roswell
Initiative, Germany. In the context of this I wrote with Kent
Jeffrey's  words:

"This is how the U.S. government responds to a petition signed
by 20,000 of its own citizens, plus hundreds of citizens from
other countries worldwide!  It is little wonder that so many
suspect a conspiracy.  My guess is, however, that the situation
is more one of indifference and ineptness on the part of the
government and its bureaucrats. "

And there is another aspect which really hurts me deeply. When
the Roswell Initiative was underway, we received signed
Declarations and many reports from  people who really became
infected by the power of the idea behind the Initiative and who
themselves started "Little Roswell Initiatives" in their home
towns. They all were enthusiastically supporting the Initiative
lead by the hope, that this manifestation of their genuine right
to request the truth from those who were elected by their votes,
must be successful.

Among all those were many young people from all  over the world.
Until today, we receive signed Declarations here in Germany from
young people who still trust that their word, as they are part
of the Sovereign, is of great importance.

So in my opinion, it is a crime to betray people who offer their
trust - and it is even more criminal when these are young.

Below I'll publish the text scan of a letter The Roswell
Initiative had received. Imagine the thrust and joy these young
people had when they went out for Roswell - and for a legal
effort to end the secrecy around extraterrestrial intelligence.

Imagine how disappointed they will be once they will know that
their own Government - the Government of Standard Oil and Fort
Benning - just ignores them. Right in front of me I am looking
at a copy of an article ones published in a newspaper in
Londonderry, New Hampshire. There is a photograph of several
students sitting and holding the Roswell Declaration in their
hands. And in their faces, there is an expression of joy, hope
and pride that they are doing the right thing. This photograph
hurts me deeply.

Betraying the youth is the most severe crime a Government can do.

---------------------------------begin of letter -----------------

                                            December 1, 1994

The Roswell Declaration
OMNI Magazine
324 West Wendover Avenue
Suite 205
Greensboro, NC 27408

Steven Juster
Project STAAR LITE
Londonderry High School
295 Mammoth Road
Londonderry, NH 03053

     Please find enclosed in this box 800+ Roswell
petitions, gathered by the students of Londonderry High
School's SF and Fantasy classes (42 students). I am their
teacher. We as a group are Project STAAR LITE (Students
Taking Action About Roswell - Londonderry Information
Tallying Effort).

     The story of Roswell, as chronocled in earlier issues of
your magazine, has always intrigued me. I had earlier
explained to my classes the problem that had been
encountered in trying to get information through the Freedom
of Information Act. When I saw the petition, I presented it
to the class as a follow up to that earlier discussion, and
suggested I would make copies if they would like to send one in.

     Well, our discussion in class escalated, and a lot of
issues came forward, and suddenly we found ourselves starting
a movement. Under student initiative, we contacted every high
school in New Hampshire, sent messages VIA Internet, and
moved throughout the community. We also saw the SHOWTIME
film.

     While our personal efforts were gratifying, we were
disappointed that other schools and individuals did not come
forward -  only a smattering of our 800 + came from outside
our community. We as a class have had long discussions about
the implications of our efforts and our efforts to
communicate our message elsewhere.

     My students are heroes in the Roswell effort. It was
difficult to explain the entire story to every person to whom
the petition was brought forward. It was also difficult to
make clear that this is not a matter of UFO's, but a matter
of freedom, access, and choice. These students, many non-
honor roll, did this over eight hundred times.

     I applaud your magazine for its ground braking work on
UFO's, prticularly this past year, and the ability to give a
mass audience access to this petition.

     Please read the enclosed articles, chronicling our paper
trail on the long, strange trip known as Roswell. They tell
our story.

     Please do not think I am hypocritical in my praise of
your magazine although I am not a subscriber. Due to medical
bils we recently went through a bankruptcy, and have scaled
back in many ways. I, as do many of my students, read the
magazine faithfully in the high school library.

                                Sincerely,

                               [signature]

                                Steven Juster
                                English teacher

-----------------------------------------end of letter-------

As Kent confirmed, in all the boxes with signed Declarations
were many letters accompanying them. Each letter is a banner
held up high for freedom of thinking and for the truth.

They were neither meant to become ignored nor stored away
in some U.S. Air Force litter box.


Joachim Koch
International Roswell Initiative, Germany






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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 22:58:22 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 21:07:21 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 98 13:26:23 PST

>>Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 06:22:10 -0500
>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

<snip>

>>GA>Once again we have an appeal to superior authority
>>through association.  One of the principal methods
>>of propaganda is repetition.  If a spurious argument
>>is repeated often enough the hope is that people will
>>believe it.

>Let me repeat, Gary:  You are spreading foolish and unfounded
>nonsense.  Worst of all, you are slandering the good names and
>reputations of persons you do not know and know nothing of.
>Your indifference to the truth of the matters at issue is -- to
>one who was there, who actually _knew_ the people (proof, by
>Gary-logic, that I must be a propagandist) -- positively
>breathtaking.

I hardly think that Hynek was an agent of anything but in any
case perhaps it should be pointed out, if anything half useful
is to emerge from this 'debate', that the CIC was responsible
for the retrieval of several advanced prototype aircraft
designed by (what were to become) 'Paperclip' scientists. The
CIC documents released in 1994 and made available via
www.blackvault.com make for very interesting reading and maybe
this is a place to do some research instead of this ridiculous
finger-pointing.

The CIC was actively involved in rounding up German technical
specialists during 1947/8 who had been missed in the early trawl
and who were not on the allied FIAT/CIC "black list" (von Braun
and Dornberger being obvious examples 'black list' prime
candidates).

For more fact and reality on CIC get a copy of Sayer and
Bottings' "America's Secret Army" which goes into detail about
the CIC. You never know, maybe Larson was involved in the
receovery of primitive Nazi flying discs.

Oh dear, now I've started another debate.....

Tim Matthews.





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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Jean van Gemert <jeanvg@dds.nl>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 00:11:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 21:09:23 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:05:30 -0500
>From: Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
>Subject: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

[...]

>Historical Note: Newcomers to the List may not know that David
>Rudiak is moderately famous for suggesting that my tome "UFO:
>The Government Files" was a disinfo job funded by an agency of
>unspeakable furtiveness - because he thought the paper it was
>printed on was of _suspiciously_high_quality_. Zooks!

Uhuh... Gee, Peter, and where did David suggest anything like
that? Wanna bet you got him mixed up with someone else?

Time to put your foot where it belongs, Duke.





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                                     Re:

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 18:48:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 21:22:10 -0500
Subject: Re:


>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 04:35:36 -0600

>>Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 06:22:10 -0500
>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


<The bulk of Ted's remarks snipped because if you don't  >
<remember them, you can find them in the Ufomind Archive.>


>To be more serious, I am trouble by not knowing two things.
>What specific subversive acts, in their post government service
>part of life, are Hynek and Larsen supposed to have committed
>and in what detailed manner have they hurt the search for the
>truth about UFOs? And, what motivates Gary to take the known
>history of these gentlemen and construct such a disparaging
>conjecture about them? >

Ted,

Let me address these serious, substantiative issues.

What harm has been done?

We all know that in the last fifty years this field has made
suprisingly little progress considering the obvious talent
of many participants.

Why should this be?

The answer is that it has been shot full of agents from the very
beginning.  That is, everywhere you turn you run into a veterans
of this other world, intelligence and counterintelligence, even
on this list.

I am not going to give away the rest of the answers to your
questions as I am writing a book on this very subject.

I will however note, that it is a tribute to the skill and
tenacity of this group of operatives that they continue to do
their jobs with almost no one in ufology being any the wiser.

Gary





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                          Re: What's New At Magonia

From: Rebecca <XianneKei@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 20:16:56 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 21:34:43 -0500
Subject: Re: What's New At Magonia


>Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 16:16:50 +0000
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Mark Pilkington <m.pilkington@virgin.net>
>Subject: What's New At Magonia

>http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/newmag.htm

> 04/12/98

>Abduction Watch #15
>Feet and mouth, implants special. Dr Leir's flaky evidence.


Thanks for this great article.

Please send Kevin the following URL's. These sites have the
material from NMTech/Los Alamos which Kevin (and others)
were inquiring.

http://firstevidence.org/NMTech-intro.htm
http://firstevidence.org/NMTech-sample_desc.htm
http://firstevidence.org/NMTech-opinion.htm
(the last one gives the "meteorite quote Barry Jones was looking for).





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   Dec > Dec 7

                              Re: The Challenge

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 19:29:49 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 22:09:03 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Challenge
>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:20:24 -0500

>Budd Hopkins has a test to see whether kids might have been
>abducted. He has a set of cards, that depict famliar fiigures in
>everyday life -- a policeman, a fireman, and others. Mixed in
>with the familiar figures is a standard alien face. He asks kids
>to look at the cards, and tell a story about each. Some kids,
>apparently, move quickly over the alien card, having no reaction
>to it. Others get frightened, fall silent, or tell stories. "I
>don't like him! He comes into my room at night."


Greg, Greg, Greg,

This is the sort of exercise (much like the Roper Report itself)
that could mean _something_ -- or absolutely nothing at all. But
to call it "a test to see whether kids might have been abducted"
is totally absurd. A perfect case of an extraordinary claim
requiring extraordinary evidence, or, in this case, any
compelling or corroborative evidence at all.

One simply doesn't know what is being tested, or enough about
the personal history of the experiencer to be able to draw such
a conclusion, however tentative. Are we to assume, for example,
that children are always hustled out of the room when a segment
on aliens and/or abductions airs on "Unsolved Mysteries" or any
number of other outlets? Are we to assume, in other words, that
the tested children are totally ignorant of the alien face (save
by personal experience) -- until same is presented to them by
Hopkins, in which case any negative or fearful response to same
must indicate that that child "might have been abducted"?

My own seven-year-old is perfectly aware of the familiar gray
visage, not just from having seen it on book covers around the
house, but from any number of sources, from TV to the toy racks
at Wal-Mart and elsewhere. How he would fare on Hopkins's "test"
on any given day is anyone's guess. Has Hopkins had any children
respond favorably to the alien face? Who knows? Has he had any
children respond fearfully to a fireman or policeman, under the
assumption that at least _some_ might have been inadvertently
frightened by one at sometime? Who knows? Did the other
portrayed figures universally display a smiley face? Who knows?
Has Hopkins used other fictional characters in his test, say,
Buzz Lightyear or a fearful character out of some Disney
animated cartoon, say, "The Lion King," as control samples? Who
knows? The general public at large certainly doesn't, nor, for
that matter, does the UFO community. Presumably, the results of
this significant test, along with Budd's studies of alien
scripts, await publication in his next commercial book on the
abduction phenomenon. (If, as we hear, Budd is indeed working
with professionals, then those professionals should be
interested enough to impose standard scientific protocols on his
studies and be willing to submit the results of same for
publication.)

And yet you and others seemingly continue to wonder why
mainstream science isn't beating down the doors to get at the
so-called abduction data. One need look no further than this
sort of pseudoscientific test for one perfectly good answer.

The UFO community needs to ask itself some very hard questions
about the abduction phenomenon, beginning with the nature of
hypnosis, and including some troubling additions to the standard
abduction scenario as reported by Edward Bullard in his landmark
1987 study. To my mind, these additions include the introduction
of hybrid babies into the abduction equation, the increasing
"sexualization" of abduction accounts, along with the
involvement of entire families and young children. Virtually all
of these aspects are absent from the 1987 study.

One can look at this development in one of two ways. Either the
additions are artificial add-ons induced by investigator bias
and psycho-sociological factors, or they reflect a marked change
in actual alien behavior. This last argument is somewhat
ameliorated, however, by the proclivity of Hopkins, Jacobs and
others to push the new sexually charged abduction further and
further back into time, in fact, back to the turn of the
century.

They compound their problems without realizing it, for surely
these mysterious, baffling cases would have turned up
_somewhere_ in the non-UFO psychological and pediatric
literature around the world before now. But no such cases exist.
Ditto for substantiated claims of missing fetuses associated
with small gray creatures, a bane that still afflicts current
abduction claims. With the numbers routinely bandied about,
shouldn't at least _one_ alleged abductee have the medical
records on hand to back up their claims by now? But no, despite
a $500 reward that was once offered (by a ufologist) for same.

>Diane, I hope your very honest and deeply felt post helps people
>understand what abductees go through.

>Greg Sandow


A noble sentiment, no doubt. But what, exactly, _is_ it that
abductees are going through? If the accounts are taken
literally, there is absolutely nothing you, I, the FBI, CIA, the
collective United Nations, Hopkins, Jacobs, or anyone else can
do about it, as should be demonstrably self-evident. Nothing,
short of learning to whistle in the dark. Aliens who can beam
people through walls with impunity are here and that's the end
of it.

If the experience _isn't_ literal, however, then there may be
something that can be done about it, leading to a cessation of
anxiety, and, arguably, the experience itself.

Ugly choice for the non-abductees among us, isn't it? Everybody
might think about that before they start offering abductees
advice. Would you rather be right and wrong, vis-a-vis the
potential mental health outcome, or wrong and right?

Think about it.

Dennis






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 20:21:44 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 21:39:51 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:05:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 09:57:04 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

Brookesmith (AKA Duke of Mendoza, etc., etc., ad nauseum) starts
off thusly:

>Men and nuns may die of Ebola fever, but the Rudiak paranoia
>virus seems to be the only thing keeping the patient here alive.

<snip part about viruses and whether private hoaxers were
involved -- another post>

Then he finishes with a flagrant lie, which in BrookeSpeak is
apparently a "Historical Note:"

>Historical Note: Newcomers to the List may not know that David
>Rudiak is moderately famous for suggesting that my tome "UFO:
>The Government Files" was a disinfo job funded by an agency of
>unspeakable furtiveness - because he thought the paper it was
>printed on was of _suspiciously_high_quality_. Zooks!

Zooks indeed!  It's interesting how I became "modestly famous"
for something I never said.  I dare, absolutely dare Peter
Brookesmith to come up with an actual quote of mine where I even
remotely said his book  "was a disinfo job funded by an agency
of unspeakable furtiveness" because it was printed on paper "of
_suspiciously_high_quality_."  Where did Brookesmith dream that
little gem up?

That's interesting weed you Brit skeptics are smoking,  no doubt
rolled in paper of "suspiciously high quality."

Maybe Brookesmith's getting paranoid in his old age.

Or maybe he's giving us a demonstration of how historically
accurate he tries to be in his writings.

Now for a true historical note.  For Newcomers to the List, what
I did do was take Brookesmith seriously to task for his
treatment of Roswell in that book, particularly his extremely
inaccurate, one-sided, and vicious character attack on Jesse
Marcel.

The relevant posts are as follows:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/may/m17-020.shtml
("Brookesmith Smears Marcel")

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/jul/m16-021.shtml

("Secrets of Literary History - Brookesmith" -- Brookesmith's
response)

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/jul/m17-026.shtml
(My last reply to Brookesmith)

Now where or where do I say the things about Brookesmith's book
that he accuses me of in his "historical note"?

(And if anyone wants to see what the Air Force REALLY thought of
Marcel, you can read his actual, Todd/Korff/Pflock/Mendoza
unfiltered service evaluations at:

http://www.primenet.com/~bdzeiler/roswell/marcel.htm

Pay particular attention to Gen. Ramey's and Col. Blanchard's
POST-Roswell evaluations. Blanchard, e.g. described him as "very
high qualified",  "highly dependable", and "highly recommended"
him for higher intelligence work.  Ramey,  called him
"outstanding" and future command officer material.  Do those
sound like descriptions of someone who screwed up his
intelligence job at Roswell?)

>best wishes
>Pyogenic D. Mesosome
>Red Hand - Black Heart

Yeah right pal.  Best wishes to you as well.  Keep laying those
factual historical notes on his.

David Rudiak





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                        Australian Free Call Hot Line

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 12:11:44 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 22:15:57 -0500
Subject: Australian Free Call Hot Line


The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
tkbnetw@fan.net.au

*************************************************************
UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number
                       1800 77 22 88 Free Call
*************************************************************

Hi everyone,

Australian Free Call HOT LINE

The First Australian UFO Hot line, linking all UFO Groups

Tel. 1800 77 22 88

The number is now listed in "The White Pages"
And On The Internet.

When you call operator assist you will get:

1800 77 22 88 UFO Australian Research Network
*********************************************************

All Areas covered  :>)

Areas

Perth  -  Brisbane  - Sydney - Melbourne - Tasmania -
South Australia.

Yes! Up And Running Full Steam Ahead!

Please tell all your friends to Report a Sighting to:

Tel 1800 77 22 88

Who will contact your local UFO group and they will call you
back.

Sponsored by Independent UFO Researchers, UFO Groups and Private
Enterprise.


Regards Diane Harrison :>)






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:22:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 22:19:12 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments:


>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:05:30 -0500
>From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
>Subject: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


>Historical Note: Newcomers to the List may not know that David
>Rudiak is moderately famous for suggesting that my tome "UFO:
>The Government Files" was a disinfo job funded by an agency of
>unspeakable furtiveness - because he thought the paper it was
>printed on was of _suspiciously_high_quality_. Zooks!

Ouch! My apologies, David.

A former list member, having strolled lately through the UpDates
web archive, has courteously pointed out to me that I am
confusing my True Believers here. It was Brian Zeiler who pulled
this number, not David Rudiak. I guess conspiracy fetishists
must make my eyes go out of focus... and then they all begin to
look the same. Unkind wit apart, this is no excuse, so repeat
apology.

Still, you do get good value out of these guys. Gary Alevy's
bizarre treatment of the runic individual he calls "*>" ["The
list member formerly known as Jerome Clark"] made me laugh
louder and longer than anything there's been around here since
Linda Cortibalone was a regular poster. But then I counted Allen
Hynek a friend, too, so draw your own conclusions, eh girls?

best wishes and a blush
Pseudocyst D. Melroseplace
Implant Spotter





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                    Re: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:41:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 22:23:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience


>Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 10:00:24 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience

>>From: David Rudiak  <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:34:44 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Drake, SETI, and DebunkerScience

>>Yet Drake wrote that people's ability to relate the directional
>>information with regards to fireball sightings tended to be
>>rather poor, with a few exceptions.  Also note that most of
>>these eyewitness reports used by LaPaz were collected days to
>>MONTHS after the event.  But Drake claimed that after only a
>>single day, half the reports were "clearly erroneous," and after
>>five days they were "more imagination than truth," or if you
>>will, virtually worthless.

>>"This is something that the UFO investigator rarely
>>appreciates," comments Drake.  "The common procedure of starting
>>a UFO investigation days after an event cannot lead to the most
>>accurate description of the event."

>I know there is a lot of respect for Drake and his work.
>However, I have a question:



Drake must have been unaware that LaPaz was respected for taking
those month old eyewitness accounts and actually plotting a
course that lead to a good number of recovered meteorites.
Apparently LaPaz's witnesses were better selected and trained
than Drake's.  This was, of course until the Air Force assigned
him to find green fireballs.  He could not find one of them.

This may be because, from my personal experience, I know that
the green fireballs are distinctly different from either the
green plasma ball of a meteor in the high speed ionization phase
of descent or the green bolide in the later and slower low
atmosphere descent.  During the ionization phase, the meteor
hits the atmosphere with enough speed and energy to strip
electrons from molecules, ionizing them.  As the electrons
recombine with the molecules, they sparkle.  This creates the
tube of "fairy dust" reported by some during the Leonid showers.
The meteor itself looks just like one of the plasma spheres you
put your hand on to trace out the lightning storm inside.  High
energy meteors  will do this so high they are smaller than a BB
held at arms length.

However, if you are lucky enough to be at mid-course during a
shuttle night landing when it passes better than 80 degrees
overhead (Oh, say in Houston TX,) you will get a lesson in big
things burning through the atmosphere that will dispell many of
the myths you may have.  The shuttle is seen as a plasma sphere
about half as big as the full moon. The plasma trail is a tube
of fairy dust equally as wide that leaves a trail in the sky
that lasts longer than the four minutes it takes for the shuttle
to go from horizon to horizon.  When you first catch the shuttle
rising above the western horizon, you are easily fooled into
thinking that you are witnessing the launch of a large rocket
only a couple of hundred miles away.  It appears to rise
straight up from a distant city.  The plasma glow around the
shuttle appears spherical. The plasma trail is mystifying.  And
only as the shuttle sinks into the eastern horizon some two
minutes after passing directly overhead do the twin sonic booms
come pounding from above.  Prime viewing is anywhere in the
American Southwest from Houston to Yuma to Las Vegas, depending
on deorbit path.  Skywatchers should make this a must-do life
experience.  Back to green fireballs...  (OK, I highjacked this
thread by clever conjunctions to Green Fireballs...)

The meteor either has enough energy to create a lasting, visible
ionization trail or it doesn't.  If it does, it will be a plasma
sphere with a much smaller bright center leaving behind it a
tube of fairy dust.  If it doesn't, it will be a burning piece
of space junk with a long fading "exhaust" tail.  The Green
Fireball?

It was after dark on a clear night in the early sixties.  I
don't think the moon was out.  We were driving north on Dorset
St. in Shelburne, Vt. just west of Shelburne Pond.  My parents
were in the front seat with one sister, I was in the middle of
the back seat amid my other sisters looking at nothing in
particular.  Suddenly my parents shout out about something
falling from the skies to the right. I lean down to the right
over my sister so that I can look up into the sky through the
right rear window.  Falling from the sky is an iridescent green
sphere.  It is at least as large as the full moon. Tiny wisps of
darker green flames are around its edges.  There is no noticable
tail or smoke behind it.  It is falling to the east and I follow
from about 30 degrees elevation till it passed behind the low
hill between us and the pond.  This took only a few seconds.  We
turned the car around and drove down to the pond access thinking
that it must have fallen in the pond.  We found nothing.

The characteristics:  solid iridescent green disc more than 1/2
degree in angular size.  Darker green small wispy flames on its
surface and around its edges.  It falls from 30 degrees
elevation to the horizon in about 3 seconds.  Appeared to be
falling straight down.  No sound. No evidence of impact within a
couple of miles.  No trail or tail left behind the object.  Seen
by 5 people.

Deductions:  over 60 feet in diameter, over 800 miles per hour.
Contemporary with and in the general direction of the Betty and
Barney hill incident less than a hundred miles to the east.

All this to point out that a green plasma sphere with an angel
dust trail behind it or a green smokey burning chunk with a
smoke trail behind it may just be a meteor.  When one of those
green fireballs of UFO folklore goes flying past you, you know
it ain't no dang meteor...

Bye... Ted..








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   Dec > Dec 7

                        Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed...

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 20:32:16 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 22:26:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed...

>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 11:43:13 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....

>This gentleman is very adament about not contacting his doctors.
>He wants that part of his personal life to remain
>uninvestigated.

>I could speculate and say it is because it might throw his story
>into the serious doubt catagory, but knowing the man as I do, I
>don't think that is the reason at all. He is just a private
>person.

<snip>


Mike,

It continues to amaze me as to why so many ufologists are so
hesitant to apply the most basic journalistic rules of
confirmation. If the man seeks the attention of the media, but
still won't supply the evidence that would confirm his story,
which he apparently claims to have, then forget him.

It's as simple as that.

The two of you can still be pen pals, friends, whatever. But
when it comes to his UFO case, it's up to you to say that, while
you find it interesting, nothing beyond that can be accomplished
or ascertained without resort to his medical records.

Tell him we've got a million interesting cases. We don't need
another anecdote, we need evidence. If he doesn't want to supply
same, just say, fine, thanks, and don't be suckered in by
conspiracy claims.

Just say, "If you won't allow me access to your records, or
permission to interview your doctors, then this is where your
story ends -- as a story and nothing more. I'd love to confirm
it, but I can't do that without your help."

I'm tempted to add, "If I can't talk to your doctors, is there
anyone else who might be able to confirm your account?"

The problem with this approach (which plays into his game) is
that he's already claimed he has evidence, in which case no
outside sources are needed if his alleged medical records are in
order.

Sorry, but I think you ought to call his bluff. No more leads
and hints, just the facts, ma'am, that is, the medical records.
If he can't or won't supply them, then something's seriously
wrong here.

Don't take no for an answer.

Dennis






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                              Re: 'Phone Noise'

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:35:11 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 22:56:10 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'


>From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'Phone Noise'
>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 14:25:33 -0000

>>Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 20:41:11 -0800
>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: 'Phone Noise'

>>Personally, I believe that 99.999% of all telephone noise is
>>just that, noise.

<snip>

>>Now, we are faced with the possibility of some alien race,
>>perhaps thousands of years in advance our technology, who might
>>want to 'listen-in' from time to time.

<snip>

>In April this year my studio being broken into despite a central
>station alarm, my computer  F-Disked & all my on-site back-ups
>taken.... nothings else was stolen, the police could find no
>evidence. Right down to the dustbin (I think you call them trash
>cans over your way) being rifled at 2am (several local
>witnesses) & being photographed taking my children to school
>from parked cars (my kids find this funny). I personally put
>this down to the security services & not aliens in my case
>(despite the fact I am an abductee).


Mark, Larry, List and other entities who may be lurking....

While none of us have hard proof, there is sufficient 'soft'
proof extant to give us all pause.  I think there is a great
deal of truth in these two posts.

I am a relative nobody, yet I too, have had some of the same
problems, exactly, with telephone, mail and other measures
taken, I suppose, to intimidate.  I also have one other serious
problem, one over which I have no control.  Since the telephone
cables here are underground, as are the AC lines, it becomes
difficult to cut, snoop and snipe ... difficult, but not
impossible.

I live on the highest plot of land in this immediate area.  In
fact, this ridge, on which my condo sits, is called "High
Point."  This makes it relatively easy to eavesdrop.  Across an
area of maybe five thousand feet is the tallest building in this
area.  It is almost as high as my residence.  Sitting atop that
building is a most impressive array of exotic antennas I have
seen ... ever.  It tops the antenna farm sitting on the North
Shore of Long Island, of which some of you are aware ...
intimately.  Three of those microwave horns belong to AT&T.
Three more belong to the Bell Atlantic company.

The remaining four, along with multi element directional
antennas tune (by their lengths) the broad spectrum of RF
frequencies from about 40 meters to well above the Gig Hz range
of microwave.  A little snooping on my part reveals that these
'other' antennas are not owned commercially.  They are in fact,
Federal agencies which own and operate them.

There is also one very effective antenna 'farm' on the adjacent
building, nearly as high, which is owned and operated by a
company in Stone Mountain, Georgia.  This firm is privately
owned by a retiree of one of the snoop agencies, I have
forgotten which ... NSA, CIA, MOUSE. Who knows.  However I did
business with this person when I worked for a large Japanese
company and was in charge of the technical laison of that
company, interfacing with electronics firms with high technology
communications patents.  These patents were in digital as well
as RF.

This firm has produced, among other sweetheart products, one of
the world's most complex and as yet, unbroken protocols in the
encryption business.

These impressive arrays are certainly not there to monitor me.
But this entire area is inhabited by three groups of humans,
large groups.

The first is among the wealthiest (per capita) people in the
USA.

The second group is composed of among the most well-known people
in the USA.  And these are in the entertainment field as well as
captains of industry....

And the third group consists of people who are known to be
associated with, believe it or not, people who have emigrated
here (from other parts of the USA) because it is known to be a
"safe area" when and if, the excrement should ever hit the fan
... you know, similar to Virginia Beach, which according to the
Sleeping Prophet, is thought to be safe when the, uh, "whatever"
happens.

Interesting?  Yes.  Revealing? Who the hell knows.  This is a
crazy world we live in.  Trust no one!  Somebody said that but I
can't remember who. No matter.  It's damned good advice these
days...... damned good advice!

Jim





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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:33:23 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 22:52:21 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 18:45:00 -0800
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>All,

>I've found these documents most interesting buy was suspicious
>of the use of "retrovirus", seemed out of place. BUT I found the
>following after a brief search of a couple of medical type
>sites, thought you all might be interestead.

>Seems they do go back quite a way.

>Neil.

<snip>

Neil,

What do go back quite a way?

No one disputes the fact that the immune system and related
factors were discussed prior to 1952. The question is whether or
not anyone used the phrase "retrovirus," with its current
meaning, then.

Don't fog up the issue with more smoke and mirrors, not to
mention irrevelant citations.

>Retroviruses

>Introduction:

>Retroviruses have received much attention in recent years (even
>before the discovery of the first human retrovirus in 1981), but
>they have a long history:

>1904: Ellerman and Bang, searching for an infectious cause
>(bacterium) for leukaemia, studied leukaemia in chickens and
>succeed in transferring the disease from one to another by
>cell-free tissue filtrates.


It's not a question of whether the discoveries leading up to the
coining of the word retrovirus had a long history or not (most
scientific developments do), but whether or not the phrase
itself was coined or known or in use in the early 50s, for which
no evidence exists. Or don't you get it yet?

Your litany implies that retroviruses (or its namesake) were
known as early as 1904, when nothing could be further from the
truth. Obviously, there was a line of research that led to the
discovery of retroviruses. Don't be absurd! That isn't the issue
here.

>1911: Peyton Rous transmitted solid tumours of chickens by
>transplanting tissue, but also isolated the infectious agent
>(RSV). This discovery was followed by many other examples of
>acutely transforming retroviruses, together with the structural
>characterization of the viruses involved.

<snip>

Here you go again, implying (via implication, if nothing else)
that what would become known as retroviruses more than half a
century later was common knowledge as early 1911.

When you first joined this thread I was elated. Here was a
scientist, I thought, willing to lend us some scientific
expertise. But that was then and this is now. Between
anachronistic retroviruses and Rorshach interprtations of the
Ramey message, you need to decide whether you're a scientist
interested in the UFO phenomenon, or a believer of certain UFO
shibboleths with a passing interest in what is dismissively
referred to (by many ufologists) as mainstream science.

It doesn't matter to me. I'm simply amazed that when scientists
do join the field that they seem so willing to surrender the
scientific techniques and principles that otherwise previously
served them so well (Dr. Wood on the new MJ-12 papers being a
perfect example of same), rather than insisting that they be
strenuously applied to the newly adopted field of ufology.

Oh, well, ufology is the perfect scientific discombobulator.

What else can I say?

Dennis







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                  Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 22:02:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 22:45:58 -0500
Subject: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 23:49:28 -0500

>>From: William Sawers <wsawers@ihug.co.nz>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 23:02:33 +1300

>>One thing I would like to ask the list....

>>"When did the term 'Have a nice day' appear?"

>1970's, I believe. Of course, people could have started saying
>it in the '60s, but the widespread -- unavoidable -- cloying --
>use of the phrase is typically '70s. (There's a wonderful
>multivolume CD colleciton of 70s music called "Have A Nice
>Day.")

>Greg Sandow


In the late seventies while at KPFT a Pacifica radio station in
Houston, TX we intentionally promoted a have a nice day campaign
throughout the city...  Strange, I never thought I was part of a
subversive movement.

Bye...  Ted..






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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 23:28:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 22:54:55 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 13:10:30 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

>I never in my messages impugned the personal integrity of
>J. Allen Hynek and Sherm Larsen.

>That is, in the modern world J. Allen Hynek and Sherm Larsen
>were possibly simply doing their job and completely loyal to
>their immediate employers and to their country. The possibility
>that to some people this loyalty was misplaced is simply not
>relevant to this discussion. You and Jerry use this as a
>diversion to draw attention away from the fact that Sherm Larsen
>was in the CIC.

As I may have remarked long ago on this list, I was very active
in left politics during the '60s, and saw many attacks on people
based on their associations. For instance, it was common to note
that somebody had worked at some point for one of the
Rockefellers, and then to assume that this person forever after
did the Rockefellers' bidding.

This, in effect, is what Gary has done here. Because Sherman
Larsen worked for an intelligence organization during World War
II, Gary wonders whether Larsen might have continued his
intelligence work during his days at CUFOS. The evidence? Well,
there isn't any, but Gary notes that the CIC, the intelligence
group Larsen worked for, was concerned with UFO after Larsen
left it.

I'd like to propose a thought experiment, for Gary and anyone
else who thinks this kind of logic makes any sense. Imagine that
you're a high-ranking intelligence official, and that your job
is to manage your agency's operatives. Do you automatically
assume that everyone who every worked for your agency in any
capacity, at any point, no matter how many years ago, is a prime
candidate for recruitment now?

Do you assume that every operative in your agency now will
always do intelligence work, even after they leave the agency or
retire?

Obviously, the answer to both these questions is "no." Even
intelligence agencies are made up of human beings. Some of them
leave intelligence and go on to other work, just as some people
leave sportscasting, finance, politics, or any other career you
can think of. Yes, I imagine you have to sign some documents
promising never to reveal what you knew, but people do leave the
intelligence business.

And that especially applies to people who did intelligence work
during wartime, or during their military service. They're not
intelligence professionals at all. I'm thinking now of my cousin
Larry, whom I don't think I've seen for 30 years. He spent 20
years or so in the Air Force, and at one point was assigned to
Air Force intelligence. He had a funny story he used to tell,
about being told, when he reported for this assignment, to be
careful what he told the cab driver who took him from the
airport. "Don't give him our address," warned Larry''s superior
officer. "Just tell him what streetcorner you're going to."
Larry did exactly that, and when the cab driver hear what street
intersection Larry was going to, he responded, "Air Force
intelligence, huh?"

Anyhow, Larry now lives somewhere in rural Oklahoma, where he's
a deacon in his church. (That's about all I know about him.) Do
we imagine that he still retains his intelligence connection,
and that he's spying on his neighbors?

And how about a friend I'll call Cary, whom I was close to when
I lived in Los Angeles? He did a different kind of
quasi-intelligence work. He'd been a steelworker who served in
Vietnam, and got radically disenchanted with the war there -- so
disenchanted, in fact, that when he got out of the service, he
rather shockingly made broadcasts for the North Vietnamese.
(It's because of this little detail that I'm not giving his real
name.) When I knew him, he was raising two kids and working as
an editor for a music publication. Should I believe that he was
also funnelling information to the North Vietnamese -- or even
worse, to the KGB -- on the side? And before anyone smirks and
says, "Sure, I just bet Hanoi wanted to know which records were
about to hit the pop charts in the US," let me add that Cary was
very active in left-wing politics. Do we need to assume, though,
that he was ordered into political action by some foreign
communist power?

My final example is my father. I mentioned him once before in a
discussion like this, but let me describe him once again. He was
a member of the Communist Party in the '30s and early '40s. From
the '50s onward, his scientific research -- into the biophysics
of muscular contraction -- was supported by the Office of Naval
Research. I remember him as a shy man with many enthusiasms, who
kept to himself when he wasn't teaching or at his lab. Should I
assume that he was a double agent, working both for the KGB and
the American military?

And since I've mentioned the Communist Party, let me use it to
show how really absurd it is to imagine that someone who was
active in American intelligence during World War II would
necessarily keep his or her intelligence connection afterward.
World War II was a popular war, conducted very openly, compared
to any war the United States ever fought afterward. All sorts of
people worked in American intelligence then, including
Communists, who, improbable as this sounds today, were the most
loyal operatives anyone could imagine. Why? Because the U.S. was
allied with the Soviet Union, then fighting for its life against
the Nazis. Communists were intense supporters of the USSR, and
while it was allied with the US, were intense supporters of the
American war effort as well. Obviously I'm not saying Sherman
Larsen was a Communist, but I _am_ saying that conditions in
American intelligence were vastly different during World War II
from what they later became.

Oh, and in case anyone thinks I'm naive about intelligence
operations....as I mentioned earlier, I was very active in
leftwing politics during the '60s. I was a prominent draft
resister, and later worked with a group of people who tried to
help military personnel who were against the Vietnam War leave
the service. The woman I was living with then was even more
active in that cause. I imagine I'm one of the few people on
this list (though I don't mean to boast) who _knows_ he was
under surveillance by intelligence agencies.

I've sat on my porch, watching a car with government insignia,
bristling with antennas, very, _very_ slowly circle my block.
I've gotten a phone call from an intelligence operative, doing a
very bad job of pretending to be somebody else. (How do I know
this? The caller was trying to find out information about my
girlfriend by pretending to be one of the servicemen she was
helping. Unfortunately for my caller, the serviceman in question
was black, and my caller had a flat midwestern accent. So when
he said things like, "This is John Doe. I've forgotten Sue's
work number. Do you think you could give it to me?" I knew
something was up.)

I've seen actual intelligence information on groups I worked
with and meetings I'd been to,  written for distribution inside
the Army Security Agency, and smuggled out by someone on the
inside who was dating someone I knew. I also knew someone back
then whose father, she said, was a high-ranking military
officer. When she joined an anti-war march, he called her
angrily. Intelligence agents had photographed the march (big
surprise) and shown him her picture. I _know_ these things go
on. I've also seen sneaky activity by the US Communist Party
that would have rivalled anything an intelligence agency could
do, if the Communist Party had been any good at it.

But I'm not about to believe someone kept an intelligence
connection after leaving intelligence, unless there's some
concrete evidence. Don't intelligence agencies _want_ us to
believe they're omnipotent and omniscient, to demoralize us and
sow confusion?

Greg Sandow






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   Dec > Dec 7

                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 01:03:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 23:15:41 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 13:10:30 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

>>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 04:35:36 -0600

>>>Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 06:22:10 -0500
>>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

<snip>

>Ted please continue to illustrate my points with
>your posts as I imagine readers will find this
>very instructive.

>Gary


Thanks Gary

Let's see, in my remarks I asked two questions of you and you
chose to _overlook_ them.  Then you _repeat_ the Stringfield
quote.  Then you tell us that the very core of this thread,
implying that Hynek and Larsen must have been using the cover of
CUFOS to hide their subversive clandestine once in the agency
always in the agency spy work, was not meant in any way to
impugne the two men.  A truly fine example of _doublespeak_.  So
let me _repeat_ my two questions to you.

Tell us one specific example of how Hynek or Larsen piped
privileged information to the agency or one specific example of
how they damaged this quest on behalf of their agency.

What is your purpose in promoting this prejudicial portrait of
these men?  What truths do you hope to reveal, what gains do you
hope to make?

Please answer the _questions_.

Someone in this thread is illustrating your points. I let the
other readers draw their own conclusions.

Bye...  Ted..






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              Doctor 'G' Updates Tomorrow - For People Who Need

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 02:34:42 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 23:36:16 -0500
Subject: Doctor 'G' Updates Tomorrow - For People Who Need


Dateline: The Bronx, 12.07.98

Today history was made as thousands gathered in the streets of
the Bronx to watch the skies.  No one had a clue as to what they
were watching, but being from the Bronx, they looked anyway.
This reporter was there.

Hearing that UFOs were coming to the Bronx, unruly crowds
looted stores, picked pockets and generally acted the same as
they would at any other gathering.  There was one unfortunate
incident on E. 233 Street near White Plains Road, when three
gunman shot four bad guys by mistake, while blaming it on the
occupants of a UFO said to have landed in the East Tremont
Avenue section earlier that day. The UFO occupants were alleged
to have demanded vials of crack for their return trip to Mongo
(Santa Maria) but were foiled by vials of saltpeter instead.
"There will be no more raping of our women for at least a week,"
exclaimed the local dope pusher, "it was a real heavy dose...
hah hah." Our reporter was there.


Dateline: Brooklyn

Our UFO reporter today uncovered a plot to overthrow the Mayor
while acting on orders from the Emperor Ming, said to have flown
to Brooklyn from Venus earlier that day. The nature of his trip
was ostensibly to take control of the Northeast portion of
Manhattan.  Mayor Moosey Lini, in an abrupt about face, chose to
say nothing when asked for comment.  The emperor, returns to
Mongo tomorrow, after a brief stopover in Sedona, Santa Maria!

On the Western front, people from all over the USA gathered this
morning in a remote portion of Staten Island, expecting a saucer
to land on the Verrazano Narrows Bridge.  Nothing happened.  Our
reporter was there.

This week, the Godfather of Sole, Don Giaccomo Tortellini, spoke
to a crowd of onlookers while stating emphatically, the Maffiosi
would not attempt to extort any aliens choosing to land in his
turf, unless they had something tangible to bring to the table,
such as death ray guns and etc.

Don Giaccomo was quoted as saying, "I will give dese short
people all the protection dey desoive, providing dey supply my
boys wid transportation to and from the scene of the crime.
Udderwise, dey on dere own."

This reporter is happy to say that, as usual, the Canal Street
UFO Research Center and Discount House of fresh wines, is
sending 4200 cases of freshly made wine to our service men and
women overseas.  We were going to send Camels but the gubbamint
threatened to pull our liquor license, despite promises that no
one would inhale.

The president, on learning of his decision, was given our
highest honor for attempting to save the lives of our fighting
people, now dying like flies in a flit storm on the fumes from
outgassing Iraqi stink bombs.  The honor, conveyed with our
compliments, was a stone carving of a hand, black in color and
with clenched fist.... except for one of the middle fingers.
Our reporter was there!

Stay tuned for more Doctor "G" UPDATES TOMORROW. Film, at
eleven.

Dr. Jaime F. Gesundt, Canal Street UFO Researcher
... without portfolio.





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                              Re: My Sightings

From: Patrick Lamb <patricklamb@email.msn.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 12:48:12 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:26:08 -0500
Subject: Re: My Sightings


>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>Subject: My Sightings
>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 23:01:08 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net


>The only other definitive sighting I had was while stargazing
>about two years ago. I was alone (unfortunately). During my
>normal scan, I suddenly noticed a bright star where I was sure
>none had been moments before. I looked at it for a long while to
>be sure that it was a star, then decided that I had just never
>noticed it before. I continued stargazing for a couple minutes
>more. I looked back again in time to see it suddenly move south
>and disappear. It just "went out". Satellites, airplanes and
>helicopters are all easily ruled out. Whatever it was was very
>high, very still (at first) and apparently either very quiet or
>too high to be heard. I don't know what it was, but I know what
>it wasn't.


I observed the same thing myself while looking at Orions belt. I
noticed an extra star, very stationary, after about one minute
it just slid off to the right and disappeared. Never told anyone
about this as you never know what reaction you may get.

Patrick Lamb








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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 09:47:30 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:22:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:53:29 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>Jerry, I'm getting a bit sick of this. This thread is archived
>so people can look up for themselves where I called the USA a
>nation of bigots, and if they find it will they please let me
>know. It must have been in the same posting as where you called
>the USA a multi-racial Utopia where all live in friendship and
>brotherhood with no whisper of racial "concern" ever crossing
>anyones lips!

John,

Since I have never made the last assertion, I can only assume
that it comes from the same place your other unverified and
imaginative assertions come from.

You are, of course, calling the United States a nation of bigots
when you charge -- without, as we have seen, any evidence --
that abduction fantasies (as you would have them) reflect racist
and anti-immigrant views which you would have us believe are
common American currency, thus what you once called the
"abduction panic" here.

You have ignored my questions, so let's try them again:

If we are to believe your allegations about the racist
foundations of abduction fantasies (as you would have them),
does this mean that (a) abductees are racists imaginatively
living our their fears or (b) a psychic cloud drops at random on
individuals, whatever their personal racial or immigration
views, and causes them to undergo vivid fantasies in which
Hispanics, blacks, Jews, or (fill in the blank; if one won't do,
you can always find another) are miraculously transformed into
big- headed, gray-skinned humanoids?

These are reasonable questions, John, though -- given the weak
to nonexistent logical and factual underpinning to the theory
you're proposing -- I don't blame you for evading them. I think
all of us would be interested in answers to them, since such
matters are fundamental to the argument you are attempting to
make.


>I don't know if Jerry thinks that immigrants are strong, macho
>and potent or are sly, wealthy and deceitful. Obviously he, and
>I, think they are neither. My point was that there are a number
>of stereotypes (mutually contradictory, that's one of the ways
>we know they're nonsense) of predatory sexuality. Other mutually
>contradictory stereotypes include "they're coming here to take
>our jobs" and "they're coming here to live on social security".
>They're stereotypes, they're nonsense, but the affect peoples
>lives.

In other words, no matter what abductees report, you can find --
as we have already seen -- some corresponding stereotype which
"confirms" your pre-existing supposition.  No matter what
abductees say, they verify what you want to believe. In ordinary
language, this is called a heads-I-win-tails- you-lose
proposition.  In fancier language it is also  the very
definition of an unfalsifiable hypothesis, without which, it
seems, the pseudoscience of psychosocial ufology could not
exist.

Jerry Clark







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                       D'Amato, Belgian Wave And MJ-12

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:23:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:14:00 -0500
Subject:  D'Amato, Belgian Wave And MJ-12


Source: Belgian UFOCOM at

http://www.finart.be/UfocomHq/usdamato.htm

Staff member Thierry Wathelet wrote the article.

C. Richard D'Amato's "boss" is Democratic Senator Robert C.
Byrd, who is a member of several important Senate comittees and
sub-committees and thus one of the top US Polticians. Extensive
information on him can be found on the page which is linked at
the bottom of this one.

Stig

*******

The Belgian UFO wave: "backstage"

Part 1/2

Monsieur D'Amato's travels

=A9 Thierry (UFOCOM) 1998 - translation from French by Yves (UFOCOM)

***

By the end of October 97, a French friend slipped the following
information in an E. mail addressed to me: "Did you know that a
Mister Richard D'Amato, official envoy of the US Congress, came
to Belgium a few month after the Belgian UFO wave to meet
privately General De Brouwer (Belgian Air Force, Operations
Section Commander) and the persons in charge of SOBEPS (Soci=E9t=E9
Belge d'Etudes des Ph=E9nom=E8nes Spaciaux)?" Well, no, I didn't
know that...

I must add that my French correspondent, whom identity must
remain secret, had always been a reliable source of information.
Besides, he is not a "ufologist".

>From this day, I tempted to obtain more data on this Mister
Richard D'Amato. Once again, Internet proved to be a key tool
and a very powerful one.

First, I decided to interrogate an Internet search engine by
typing in the following keywords: "Richard C. D'Amato". I was
quite surprised to notice that the search engine only provided
me with very few entries. Four or five, no more.

The only entry dealing with "our man" was a digest of papers
which mostly emanated from the reputable "Washington Post". The
summary of papers is as follows:


[...] A secret Defence Intelligence Agency program that posed
tough military questions to a handful of full-time, salaried
psychics was kept alive for years at the insistence of a few
senators and a congressional staff aide despite opposition from
senior military intelligence officials.

[C. Richard] D'Amato, who was assigned to the committee staff by
Sen. Robert C. Byrd (D-W.Va.), a former Appropriations Committee
Chairman, confirmed in an interview yesterday that he kept the
program alive because four to six senators had expressed unusual
and sustained interest in its potential, and because similar
psychic research was being pursued by the Soviet Union, China
and "some of our European allies."

--Washington Post, Dec. 1, 1995


What can we conclude from this paper? First, it ascertains that
Mister D'Amato worked for the US Congress. One also learns from
it that he was "hired" by Senator Byrd to take part in a
Congress Committee in charge of evaluating and "reconducting" a
"psy" program from the Defence Intelligence Agency (DIA).
Briefly, this resembles the so-called "Stargate Program" which
involves psychic spies, in other words persons with unusual
gifts such as "remote viewing"... Unbelievable, indeed! All of
this is quite official, and mostly "sponsored" by the US tax
payer!

Another interesting data is the allegation "...that he kept the
program alive..." : So D'Amato himself admits that he worked to
have the program renewed. Because he was appointed by the DIA or
even by another higher decision "structure". This would explain
why he was an official member of a Congress Commission.

The reference to similar projects being conducted by "some of
our European allies" was also of interest to me. But the
"priority" had to be given to D'Amato. Because there are
numerous unanswered questions about him. For instance, why did
this man, officially commissioned by the higher US Authorities,
come to SOBEPS Office and especially visit General De Brouwer?
Who is exactly D'Amato and why did the US Congress seem to pay
so much attention to "the Belgian UFO wave" of 1989-1991. Why
did Sen. Byrd choose D'Amato? Who is really Sen. Byrd? What is
the role of the "psychical spies" in this story. We will know
more soon.

Pursuing my administrative investigations, I succeeded in
obtaining several documents of interest: e.g. the following list
of the members of the Sub-Committee on Military Construction,
under the authority of the Senate Committee on Appropriations.
The responsible person for the Democrats is Hon. Robert C. Byrd.
Under the 104th Congress, he even was the "chairman", i.e. the
President.


SENATE COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS
SUBCOMMITTEE ON MILITARY CONSTRUCTION


SD-140 Dirksen Bldg.
Washington, D.C. 20510
(202) 224-7204

Clerk: Sid Ashworth
Minority Clerk: C. Richard D'Amato


Republicans (4)

Conrad Burns, Mont. - chairman
Kay Bailey Hutchison, Texas
Lauch Faircloth, N.C.
Larry E. Craig, Idaho


Democrats (3)

Patty Murray, Wash. - ranking member
Harry Reid, Nev.
Daniel K. Inouye, Hawaii

source: CQ NewsAlert
=A9 1996, Congressional Quarterly Inc. All rights reserved.


One can notice that Mr. D'Amato held a "key" position in one of
the sub-Committees on Appropriations. This was and still is a
very special sub-Committee! Indeed, Mr. D'Amato is a Consultant
for the National and International Security Affairs! Quite
normal altogether, since he is also a member of the staff of
Sen. Byrd. All these qualifications make him a specialist of the
US Army Intelligence Service. And this why he appears in this
story.

Just by looking at the list of the members of two committees
(Appropriations and Armed Services) during the 104th Congress,
one can note that Richard C. D'Amato (a.k.a. "Dick" ) always
holds very high positions.

The lists of members are a bit long, but packed with valuable
data. This is the reason why I think that they are worth being
shown below. One name is remarkable: that of Sen. Storm
Thurmond. He is the very same person who wrote the forewords in
the first version of Colonel Philip Corso's book. At this time,
Corso was not call "The Day After Roswell", yet. But here are
the lists:


SENATE COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES

Senator                 Position        Ofc.    Ph.#    Fax#
Principal Staff Contact

Strom Thurmond (R-SC)   SASC/Chair,SASC SR217   5972    1300   Tom Moore
Sam Nunn (D-GA)         SASC/RMM, SASC  SD303   3521    0072   Arnold Punaro
Trent Lott (R-MS)       SASC SCST/ST&S  SR487   6253    2262   Sam Adcock /
6825~
Kay Hutchinson (R-TX)   SASC SCST/ST&S  SH703   5922    0776   Ken Johnson
Richard Bryan (D-NV)    SASC SCST/ST&S  SR364   6244    1867   Tim Hay
John McCain (R-AZ)      SASC SCST       SR111   2235    8938   Chris Paul
Robert Byrd (D-WV)      SASC/RRM,SAC/De SH311   3954    8070   Dick D'Amato
William Cohen (R-ME)    SASC            SH322   2523    2693   Dale Gerry
Dan Coats (R-IN)        SASC            SR404   5623    1966   Pam Sellars /
5623~
Bob Smith (R-NH)        SASC            SD332   2841    1353   Tom Lankford /
Dirk Kempthorne (R-ID)  SASC            SD367   6142    5893   Glen Tait
John Warner (R-VA)      SASC            SR225   203     6295   Les
Brownlee / 9356~ / SR228~
James Inhofe (R-OK)*    SASC            SR453   4721    ----   ---
Rick Santorum (R-PA)*   SASC            SDB40-2 6324    xxxx   ---
Jeff Bingaman (D-NM)    SASC            SH110   5521    2852   Patrick Von
Bargen
Carl Levin (D-MI)       SASC            SR459   6221    1388   Mike Thomas /
6587~
Ted Kennedy (D-MA)      SASC            SR315   4543    2417   Gare Smith /
5112~
Joseph Liebermann(D-CT) SASC            SH316   4041    9750   Tom Parker /
8787~
Chuck Robb (D-VA)       SASC            SR493   4024    8689   J. J. Gertler
/ 8033~
John Glenn (D-OH)       SASC            SH503   3353    7983   Phil
Upschulte / 3353~

Legends:
* =3D freshman member of 104th Congress
SCST =3D Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, & Transportation
ST&S =3D Subcommittee on Science, Technology, & Space of SCST
SASC =3D Senate Armed Services Committee
SAC =3D Senate Appropriations Committee
De. =3D Defense Subcommittee of SAC
RMM =3D Ranking Minority Member
Wednesday 8 February 1995


SENATE COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS

Senator                    Position                            Ofc.
Ph.#  Fax#   Staffer

Mark Hatfield (R-OR)       SAC/Chair, SAC                      SH711
3753  0276
Robert Byrd (D-WV)         SAC/RMM, SAC/Def SASC               SH311
3954  1689
Christopher Bond (R-MO)    SAC/Chair,VA-HUD-IA/Def             SR293
5721  8149   Brent Franzel
Barbara Mikulski (D-MD)    SAC/RMM, VA-HUD-IA                  S----
4654  8858   Kevin Kelley
Conrad Burns (R-MT)        SAC/VA-HUD-IA,SCST/Chair, ST&S      SD183  2644
 8594   D. McClellan
Robert Bennett (R-UT)      SAC/VA-HUD-IA                       SD241  5444
Robert Kerrey (D-NE)       SAC/VA-HUD-IA                       SH303
6551  7645   Carolyn Fuller
Phil Gramm (R-TX)          SAC/VA-HUD-IA/Def                   SR370
2934  82856  D.Ribbentrop
Richard Shelby (R-AL)      SAC/VA-HUD-IA/Def                   SH509  5744
J. Bennett Johnston (D-LA) SAC/VA-HUD-IA/Def                   SH136
5824  2952   Jeff Martin/
Patrick Leahy (D-VT)       SAC/VA-HUD-IA/Def                   SR433
4242  3595   J.P. Dowd
Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ)    SAC/VA-HUD-IA/Def                   SH506
4744  9707   Bruce King
Ted Stevens (R-AK)         SAC/VA-HUD-IA/Chair,Def,SCST/ST&S   SH522
3004  2354
Daniel Inouye (D-HI)       SAC/RMM, Def SCST                   SH722
3934  6747
Arlen Specter (R-PA)       SAC/Def                             SH530
4254  9029   Morrie Ruffin
Pete Domenici (R-NM)       SAC/Def                             SD427  6621
 7371   Marco Gonzales
Thad Cochran (R-MS)        SAC/Def                             SR326
5054  9450   Jack Hoggard
Mitch McConnell (R-KY)     SAC/Def                             SR120
2541  2499   Robin Cleveland
Connie Mack (R-FL)         SAC/Def                             SH517
5274  9365   Ross Lindholm
Tom Harkin (D-IA)          SAC/Def                             SH531
3254  7431   Sandy Thomas
Dale Bumpers (D-AR)        SAC/Def                             SD229
4843  6435   Bruce McDonald
Slade Gorton (R-WA)        SAC/SCST                            SH730
3441  9393   Terri Claffey
James Jeffords (R-VT)      SAC                                 SH513
5141
Judd Gregg (R-NH)          SAC                                 SR393
3324
Herb Kohl (D-WI)           SAC                                 SH330
5653  9787   Jeanne Bruns
Harry Reid (D-NV)          SAC                                 SH324
3542  7327   David Chartier
Patty Murray (D-WA)        SAC                                 SH302
2621  0238   Eric Ostrovsky

Legends:
SCST =3D Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, & Transportation
ST&S =3D Subcommittee on Science, Technology, & Space of SCST
SASC =3D Senate Armed Services Committee
SAC =3D Senate Appropriations Committee
Def =3D Defense Subcommittee of SAC
VA-HUD-IA =3D Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs, Housing & Urban
Development, & Independent Agencies of SAC
RMM =3D Ranking Minority Member
date: Wednesday 8 February 1995

This document can be found on Internet at the following URL:

http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/usr/fj04/homepage.html

All these data strongly support the view that D'Amato works for
the highest US authority. The article published by the
Washington Post and the Senate documents are consistent with the
above assertion. However, the agency for which really worked
(and still works?) D'Amato remains to be identified. CIA, DIA,
NSC, FBI, NSA, ONI, OSI, AFI? Your bet is as good as mine.

At the beginning of my investigations, I was tempted to believe
that D'Amato worked for the Defence Intelligence Agency (DIA).
This conviction was based on the facts that: (i) he made
noticeable efforts to maintain and renew a "Psy" budget line at
the DIA; and (ii) "Dick" was a member of two Committees, the
activities of which being related to the Army;. However, the
National Security Council (NSC) could also be a reasonable bet.
The NSC controls most, if not all, of the Intelligence Services
of the USA. It is under the direct command of the President of
the United States of America.

These are the reasons why I got in touch directly with Major Ed
Dames, an ex-"psy-spy" now at the Stanford Institute. In the
meantime, and without any arrangement, Jeff, the person
responsible for the "Sciences" team at the UFOCOM, made a
similar approach. He contacted Ingo Swan, one of the "big
cheeses" of the "Stargate Program". As an anecdote, during tests
run jointly by the CIA and DIA, Ingo Swan succeeded in
describing very precisely a "top-secret" military installation
given only its geographical coordinates. Jeff and I are very
sceptical about this kind of stories and experiments. However,
The Ingo Swan trail could have been helpful to channel our way
towards D'Amato. But we never heard from Swan.

The person who provided us with a decisive argument to relate
D'Amato with the NSC was Jesse Marcel Jr... Yes, indeed! Jesse
Marcel Jr, the son of Captain Jesse Marcel. This latter was an
senior officer at Roswell, and he directly eye-witnessed the
recovery of a machine which would have "crashed" close to the
city of Roswell in 1947. We are living on a small planet, aren't
we? And may be, our planet is even smaller than this...

On April 13, 1995, Dr. Jess Marcel Jr, made the following
statement at a Conference held at Helena, Montana.

He claimed that he was invited in Washington, D.C., by a "Dick"
D'Amato, who introduced himself (showing him official
accreditation) as a staff member of Sen. Robert C. Byrd, a
specialist of National Security and an "agent de liaison" at the
NSC. This "very private" meeting took place on a day of July
1991.

Later on, Jess Marcel told Micha=EBl Lindemann, a US investigator
and the editor of the ISCNI*Flash, that D'Amato asked him to
describe the objects, scraps and remains taken at Roswell by his
father, exactly fifty years ago. He also wanted to know what did
this event change in his life.

Dr. Jess Marcel also stated that, at one time during the
meeting, D'Amato moved towards a table and took a book laying
there. It was "Majestic" by Whitley Streiber. Showing him this
book, he said: "This is not a invention"... And yet, it was
supposed to be a fiction.

Dr. Marcel then asked a question to D'Amato, inquiring where now
were the remains of the machine recovered in '47. D'Amato
answered: "We, at the NSC, don't have any clue to answer this
question".

Monsieur D'Amato concluded the interview by kindly requesting
Dr. Marcel to keep him informed if some new elements came to his
mind, or if he received - again - some unpleasant phone calls,
or he felt harassed anyhow.

The truth is that one has been putting this sort of "pressure"
on Dr. Jesse Marcel for years.

Regarding this story, an investigator named James Easton wrote:
"[On 30 July], I was speaking with Graham Birdsall of Quest
International and editor of UFO Magazine (UK) and I asked if he
had ever heard of this claim. Like myself, it was news to him.
As he was due to telephone Stanton Friedman the following day
concerning the "Santilli affair" I suggested that Stanton may be
interested to hear of this.The following evening, Graham
confirmed he had mentioned this to Stanton and was somewhat
taken aback to hear Stanton confirm that not only had he heard
of this meeting, he was there! There was one other unnamed
person also
present.

Stanton was very surprised that Dr. Marcel had released the name
of Mr. D'Amato and said that D'Amato had indicated that he would
not confirm this meeting had taken place.

The following day, Graham told me that he had just been speaking
to Timothy Good and had mentioned this meeting to him. Tim was
also very surprised to hear of this. For the last few years,
both in Washington and in London, Tim had met with Dick D'Amato
in confidence. Tim was introduced to D'Amato by Whitley Strieber
and confirmed that these events are relevant to Strieber's
latest book, "Breakthrough." Again, Tim did not expect to hear
D'Amato publicly identified and said that some of the content of
his next book refers to these meetings and their implications,
but that he had not identified D'Amato. As this information was
now in the public domain, he would consequently be doing so."

This meting is also mentioned in a paper written by Dr. Richard
J. Boylan, a US psychologist and ufologist. The title of the
paper is: "Birds of a Feather No Longer: Policy Split Divides
'Aviary' UFO-Secrecy Group".

Here is a very interesting excerpt:

"Dick D'Amato, National and International Security Specialist
for Senator Robert Byrd and a member of the National Security
Council, stated in 1991 that an incredibly powerful "black arm"
of the government has been keeping UFO information secret and
has also been illegally spending enormous sums of money in this
operation."

To summarize, Richard C. D'Amato is a man "who knows".
Interestingly enough, the whole story started with a short
message dealing with the visit of a Richard D'Amato,
commissioned by the US Senate. But after some dozens of hours of
investigation, phone calls, fax and E mail exchanged, this
person was identified as a member of NSC, a specialist in
National and International Security working for Sen. Byrd
(Committee for Appropriations) and a "big cheese" who promoted
the renewal of a DIA budget attributed to a "Psy" program of the
Stargate type. Furthermore D'Amato probably met with Whitley
Streiber, Dr Jesse Marcel Jr., Stanton Friedman, Timothy Good,
SOBEPS members and Gen. De Brouwer.

Concerning these two last persons or group of persons, I had
nothing in my hands which confirmed their meeting with D'Amato
in Belgium. How could I verify these data?

If D'Amato had been officially delegated by the US Congress,
several Belgian Senior Officers (Defence Secretary, Senate, SGR,
etc...) should have been kept informed. Furthermore, this kind
of visit, the purpose of which can be termed "exotic", should
have left some traces in the memories if not in official
documents. It is reasonable to assume that the Chief Officer
responsible for the section "Op=E9rations" at the Belgian Air
Force (FAe) can only welcome a member of the Senate Staff (tied
with the Intelligence Services) under the approval of the
Defence Ministry and very likely under that of the Defence
Minister. At this time, the Belgian Defence Minister was Mr Guy
Co=EBme and his military counsellor was Lieutenant- General Michel
Mandl.

I have true respect for Mr. Co=EBme because he suffered from
several misfortunes, related both to his private and public
lives, keeping high morality without showing-off. To him,
Belgian people owe the "transparence" related to the events of
1989-91. To him also, SOBEPS owes its close collaboration with
the Army. To him again, and to Gen. De Brouwer, we all owe the
feeling that we have come closer to clarification...

With this state of mind, I wrote the following letter (note:
translated from French) to the residence of the Minister Guy
Co=EBme:

"Dear Mister Minister, First of all, please allow me to
introduce myself. My name is Thierry Wathelet, I am 32 and I am
currently preparing a first book dealing with the question of
UFOs. I am not a UFOlogist, but merely a citizen who has been
investigating this phenomenon for some four years now.

[...] At present, I am completing a chapter on the Belgian "UFO
wave 1989-1991" and I found myself in front of questions that
you may certainly better answer than I may.

At the end of the Belgian wave, the US Senate supposedly sent a
delegate, a Mister Richard C. D'Amato, with the mission to meet
with Gen. De Brouwer (note: he was a Colonel at this time) and,
on the day before, several responsible people at SOBEPS. Could
you tell me, Mister Minister, if this visit was an official one,
and, if it was, what were the objectives?

Could you, Mister Minister, give me some information on the
above point? I just remember that media mentioned it but you
know that journalists exhibit a clear trend to "adapt" the news
to their need... Your help might prove to be valuable to
understand what exactly went on at this time. Your willingness
to open the related files was, at that time, a world "premi=E8re".
This behavior was also in complete opposition with that of Mr.
Poncelet who just officially closed this file on the basis of
two documents, one of which being erroneous. I am also quite
surprised to notice that there is no official reaction of the US
authorities following the accusation originating from our
Defence Minister. At that time, USA were conducting tests on
"top-secret" aeroplanes above Belgium. He even gave the name of
the planes: it was LoFLYTE. Mister Minister, what do you think
of this assertion?

My request is that of an historian, not that of a columnist. I
hope you may help me in my investigations.

Looking forward to hearing from you, I remain, Mister Minister,
sincerely yours."

Sometimes later, Monsieur Co=EBme kindly answered my letter. He
said that he would have been delighted to help me. However, we
were dealing with an old story and he had kept no personal files
on these events, which still should be available from the
Defence Ministry.

Yes, indeed... Mr Co=EBme did not provide me with new data. I was
still unable to confirm the visit of Mr. D=92Amato at SOBEPS, and
his meeting with Gen. De Brouwer.

Several months ago, I obtained the electronic address of Gen. De
Brouwer. At the beginning of my investigations, the idea to get
in touch with him came to my mind. I wrote to him to ask his
feeling on the recent "Belgian wave". He never answered,
therefore I though that it was not disturbing him once again.

My last chance to get a confirmation of D=92Amato=92s visit was at
the SOBEPS association, the activity of which was prominent
during the Belgian wave and central to the UFO question between
1989 and 1992. The relationships between the people responsible
for the SOBEPS association and I were not always smooth. Who was
right or wrong is of no importance. Also, with respect to our
potential interest in the LoFLYTE affair, I decided that it was
time to look further than our differences. This was made
possible only because Michel Bougard, the director of the
SOBEPS, shared the same feelings.

I therefore sent a fax to Mr. Bougard=92s house, asking him to
confirm (or not) D=92Amato=92s visit. A kind answer came pretty
fast: "Indeed, I hereby confirm that we received Mr. R. C.
D'Amato at the SOBEPS, on July 1992". M. Bougard also stated
that he did not attend the meeting with D=92Amato, but that
several colleagues did. He told me that he was going to ask Pr.
Meessen, Lucien Clerbaut (Secretary General) and Patrick Ferryn,
and keep me informed.

Mr Bougard held his words. A few days later, with the kind
authorization from his colleagues, he sent me the following data
that were passed on to him by Mrs. Clerebaut et Ferryn (Pr.
Meessen will reply later):

Mr Richard D'Amato came to visit SOBEPS Office, Avenue Janson,
in Bruxelles, on July 9, 1992. He introduced himself as "an
official envoy", delegated by a group of US Senators who were
interested in the observations made in Belgium, and in the
putative relationship of these with what they called "Black
Programs". Supposedly, D'Amato came to determine whether the
observed phenomenon should be attributed to flying objects, the
existence of which being hidden to US people. His card
mentioned: C. Richard D'Amato, Counsel for International and
National Security Policies, Committee on Appropriations, United
States Senate.

According to the persons who attended the meeting, D'Amato
appeared to know very little about the "UFO" context, generally
speaking. His data on Roswell seemed to be exactly those
presented on TV and in the newspapers to the average US citizen.

Any way, we got it! The confirmation that D=92Amato came at SOBEPS
was given to us by a very reliable source. Furthermore, the
willingness of the SOBEPS to open their files (an exceptional
fact amongst "serious" UFOlogists, allowed me to double-check
previous data. Indeed, Monsieur D=92Amato played the same tune at
SOBEPS than that he played to Dr. Jesse Marcel Jr., the son of
the Intelligence Officer of Roswell Base, exactly one year
before.

What has been written by Dr Richard Boylan should therefore be
true... What has been claimed by Friedman, Good and others seems
to be corroborated by the people at SOBEPS and especially Mr
Bougard.

I have to say that, at this point of the story, nobody except
two of my fellows, Jeff & St=E9phane Kucharski, knew about my
investigation. Even my request addressed to SOBEPS was
voluntarily imprecise. Later on, to acknowledge the help of the
SOBEPS, I faxed more data on my investigation to Mr Bougard.

Sometime later, Pr. Meessen also shed some light on the meeting
with D=92Amato. We exchanged numerous E. mails which constituted
at this time one of the most valuable contribution brought by an
UFOlogist to my investigation on this phenomenon.

Here is what Pr. Meessen wrote (note: translated from the French):

"M. Wathelet,

I thank you for your recent E. mail and the precise answers it
contains. I will discuss this point latter since I would like to
focus first on the most important topic: Mister D=92Amato=92s visit.

M. Clerebaut explained me over the phone that Mr. D'Amato wished
to meet me, to obtain additional data on the Belgian wave. He
asked whether I could meet him, on such day at such time at the
SOBEPS Office. I agreed. The meeting lasted for the whole
afternoon. Mrs. Clerebaut & Ferryn also attended the discussion,
but they did not talk too much.

M. Richard C. D'Amato introduced himself as Sen. Robert C. Byrd
counsellor, who was heading at this time the "Senate Committee
on Appropriations". It is a very powerful organization since it
is responsible for the attribution (dispatching) of the military
budget. Mr. D'Amato explained that this visit was included
within a &qotvoyage (trip) to Europe"... he never said that he
was "officially delegated by the US Congress US", as stated by
your French friend. However, I could not believe that D=92Amato=92s
visit was only motivated by a personal interest in the Belgian
wave. Rather, Mr. Byrd might have asked him to get data on the
SOBEPS, its personal and its research methods. This did not
disturb me. On the contrary, I appreciated that he took the
information directly from us, after "knockin' on the door".

I also knew that he would write a report that he would drop
somewhere. This only was of importance to me since it provided
me with a unique possibility to pass on a message to the
readers! The meeting took place on July 1992. D=92Amato therefore
certainly knew about the Belgian wave, at least as it was
presented through the media to US "observers" in Belgium. At the
position he held, one does not travel without having prepared
the trip! Though he did not read the SOBEPS report published in
1991, he very likely benefited (at least) from a "briefing".
Anyway, this did not matter since his only presence sufficed to
demonstrate that he was interested in the UFO phenomenon, in the
SOBEPS studies and in the data obtained by the Belgian F-16.

I described to him our major observations in such a way he could
really understand the exceptional extent of the Belgian wave,
the high reliability of the eye-witnesses, and the capacities of
the observed flying objects which could not be explained in the
light of our technological capabilities and scientific
knowledge. I also told him that I was conducting personal
investigations and that I wanted to know what has been seen on
the Belgian Army radars. As a scientist, I think that I would
have betrayed my responsibilities if I would not have requested
these data. He probably realized how seriously we took the study
of the observations (the facts) and their interpretation. Mr.
D=92Amato listened to me with a real attention. Though he was more
a specialist of political, military and judiciary questions than
a scientist, I felt that D=92Amato caught fairly well the
"message" that I wished to have him passed on. I do not recall
that he asked questions, but I know that I led the discussion to
reach the goals that were mine.

The "official" approach of the UFO phenomenon by US political
and military authorities is inappropriate and must be modified!

Here is what I wanted him to understand and to bear in mind, at
least on a person to person basis. To reveal the content of this
meeting would not have come to my mind. Not because it deals
with "secret affairs" but because it is often more efficient to
work "in the shade". Given the current situation, it seems that
avoiding the propagation of misinterpretations may be useful,
especially if they may eventually be regarded as hoaxes.[...]

In front of D'Amato, I added that, undoubtedly, the highest
political and military US authorities have all investigation
means allowing them to be well-informed of the UFO
characteristics and the extraordinary nature of this technology.
They should therefore be aware that this technology was coming
neither from USA nor from any other country in the world. I told
him the following: I understand that, in 1947 and in the
beginning of the fifties (when the Robertson Committee released
a "semi-official" opinion), USA were essentially interested in
conducting secret studies of the UFO phenomenon to gain
potential military advantage. However, one has to acknowledge
that today situation is not the same. Because there is a
continuous flux of observations, and because the E.T. nature of
the phenomenon becomes more and more convincing in the light of
a thorough analysis of the observations, we are now facing
scientific and human interrogations of the utmost importance. We
are not only dealing with a National Security issue. The issue
belongs to Mankind and affects our future in the long term.
Nobody is allowed to disguize the truth.

The day will come when we will learn that the political and
military US authorities have been lying intentionally for long
years. This is not the choice of a single man, but that of
several people. On the long run, neither the power of the
weapons, neither that of money, nor the power of the power
itself (under all its aspects) can "win". The "essencial values"
have to be protected. USA claim they are the land - and the
protectors - of freedom and democracy, but it will become known
that they have been voluntarily misleading us. Whatever the
reasons that will be put forwards, the responsible persons will
have to take the consequences of this policy upon themselves.
This political system will loose all credit. Still, USA could
initiate a "new deal" in term of UFO which may proved to be more
profitable to them in the long run than will be their current
attitude consisting in fooling everybody on this planet. "Where
there is a will, there is a way"!.

So this is what happened at the meeting at the SOBEPS Office.
This may not be exactly what you were expecting. I do not recall
the exact words of our talk (note: with D'Amato), but I can
ascertain that the above described ideas were central to our
discussion. Mr. Ferryn followed what I said in English, and two
days ago, he confirmed to me that he indeed remembers the above
conversation. He was the person who drove Mr. D'Amato from and
back to his hotel. What they discussed together remained unknown
to me. However, from what I recently learnt, Mr. D'Amato acted
as someone who knew very little about the UFO phenomenon. All he
said about it was already known. He asked questions about the
SOBEPS, as a person who wished to better appreciate our Society.
We had nothing to hide. On the contrary, we had a message to
deliver. Some of the allegations that you "harvested" might be
re-examined in the light of the above "feeling".

Shortly after Mr. D'Amato's visit at SOBEPS, I met with Gen. W.
De Brouwer. He spontaneously told me that D'Amato came the day
after (note his visit at the SOBEPS Office). The key point of
our meeting seemed to be his wish to obtain a copy of the radar
recordings performed by the Belgian F-16, during the night of
March 30th to 31st. Gen. De Brouwer did not passed these
recordings onto "Dick". However, he assured D'Amato that he
could have them, provided an "official" request was sent by US
authorities. This request never came! It was only a "tactical"
game."

Quotation ends.

The letter from Professor Meessen was far longer. However, the
other topics presented in his mail were of private or general
nature. At the end of the letter, Pr. Meessen wrote that he
would not oppose the publication of this letter provided he
could read first all quotations. Quite normal, honestly.

Later on, however, Mr Bougard told me that this visit and the
related talks were perceived differently by the three persons
from the SOBEPS. Relating all view points and apprehensions
seemed pertinent to him.

Indeed, Mrs. Clerebaut et Ferryn appear to have a slightly
divergent opinion regarding D=92Amato=92s visit. I would like to
acknowledge this difference of "perception". Essentially, we
will retain that Mrs. Clerbaut (secretary general) and Ferryn
(co- founder of SOBEPS) remember that some references to the
"black programs" were made, and that the visit had some
"official" character. Pr. Meessen has a more "lukewarm"
attitude.

In my opinion, D'Amato made a major goof when he met with Gen.
De Brouwer. He asked for a copy of the data recorded by the FAe
F-16. This was in opposition with the "etiquette". D=92Amato
indeed knew that Gen. De Brouwer could not provide him with
these data. Was this some sort of "yankee" arrogance or a more
intentional manoeuvre? Here again, I agree with Pr. Meessen to
term pure "strategy" these unofficially "official" movements.

I would also believe that D=92Amato=92s attitude constitutes a
message addressed to us, saying: "We (the highest Official US
Institutions) are very interested in the UFO phenomenon because
we are not at the origin of it".

D'Amato pretends that he is looking for clues to prove that
there is an incredibly powerful "dark force" in the USA which
would master a "mysterious" technology, allowing them to
disregard the borders and the authority of the US government.

Strangely enough, it seems to me that Mr D'Amato should be
well-informed and probably better informed than everybody else.
Thanks to the position of his boss, Sen. Byrd, he has full
access to the best of the US "Hi-Tech" companies and research
laboratories! He has also strong ties with all intelligence
services in the USA! He has permanent contact with all services
depending on the Defence and Foreign Affairs Ministries. And he
is regarded as a US specialist in these domains, as exemplified
by the fact that he gave a talk at the Annual Meeting of
Political Sciences, held at the Truman Auditorium of the
Sheraton hotel on August 1997. Amongst the speakers, there were
people from the Defence Department, the Navy, US
Representatives, and several University Professor (including
Stanford). The main topics were related with Strategy, National
and International Security, NATO, International Politics, etc...

Furthermore, it is difficult to admit that the technology
essential to build UFO can be developed in such a way that none
of the best secret services in the world heard about it. Just
think of the necessary infrastructure! Private companies would
have to contribute to it. You also need factories, hundreds of
people, large energy supply, and an incredible amount of
money... So, where does this technology come from? Is this so
"big" that people can defy the power of the US government and
that of the president of the USA?

In the paper from Dr. Boylan, a citation of which is given
above, there are some data on a company which could be a good
"choice" to deal with "Advanced Technology". Its name is "EG&G".
Interestingly enough, did you know that EG&G set up a plant in
Belgium? When? In 1989, of course! Where? Very close to
Bruxelles airport. Why there? Because EG&G controls a small air
company which they used only for their own transportation. We
have to admit that this is quite surprising, haven't we?

Anyway, we are now far away from the questionable speculations
reported in the media which have led allegedly the Belgian
Defence Secretary to close the "Belgian wave" file. Later on, I
learnt that this was not true; just a misinterpretation (?) of
these media.... Thus, Ministry Poncelet never mentioned anything
about the LoFLYTE! LoFLYTE...? Neeeh, it is not a "black
program". It is a common project involving the Defence
Department and several private companies. This is crystal clear!
But may be, the truth cannot be told... Hence, the whole file
must be re-open. Should it must not, then I want to know why it
must be closed. Monsieur D'Amato did not come to Belgium for a
scientific study on temperature inversion. And Chief Renkin, of
the "Gendarmerie" did not see a LoFLYTE but something completely
different...

Now, imagine that this whole story could be a controlled
released of information, "distilled" drop after drop, to
acclimate ourselves to new concepts... And would it be possible
that Mr. D'Amato, when he met with Gen. De Brouwer, told him
that NORAD and Space Command were under "Red Alert" during the
Belgian wave? Indeed the military Radar at Glons is part of the
NATO strategic device for air control. It is therefore difficult
to understand that the US controllers, somewhere in Colorado,
did not pay attention to the data recorded by this radar.
Unfortunately, I cannot check and warrant this piece of
information. It is one of the few of that kind that you'll red
in my book.

Another hypothesis may be that Mr D'Amato came to gather data
for the Senate, the NSC (and therefore for the US President).
There are several clues to indicate that this is still his job
today. D'Amato tries to identify the people who are developing a
quot;private" technology "in the back" of the Congress and of
the President. In this respect, how should we interpret the joke
made by President Clinton during his visit to Belfast for
Christmas on December 1995? Remarkably, this joke was published
as an official press release from the White House.


THE WHITE HOUSE

Office of the Press Secretary

(Belfast, Northern Ireland)

For Immediate Release November 30, 1995

REMARKS BY THE PRESIDENT AND THE FIRST LADY AT THE LIGHTING OF
THE CITY CHRISTMAS TREE

Belfast City Hall Belfast, Northern Ireland 7:36 P.M. (L)


"[...] And to all of you who have not lost your sense of humor,
I say thank you. I got a letter from 13-year-old Ryan from
Belfast. Now, Ryan, if you're out in the crowd tonight, here's
the answer to your question. No, as far as I know, an alien
spacecraft did not crash in Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947.
(Laughter.) And, Ryan, if the United States Air Force did
recover alien bodies, they didn't tell me about it, either, and
I want to know. (Applause.) [...]"


Knowing how carefully the talks from Presidents are built,
especially those from the US President, one can ascertain that
this sentence is not ingenuous. To whom it was addressed remains
unclear.... But everybody knows that when the President wants
it, NSC does it!

There are people who know but refuse to talk. It is an
indisputable fact. For their defence, one can say that it might
be dangerous to release new pieces of information as long as
most of the citizens will prefer "to believe rather than to
know". In a school, the teacher always adapt his instruction to
fit the average capabilities of his students...

So what, Monsieur D'Amato, your "friends" did find something
really bizarre in 1947. But was it so important that all related
projects could not depend on political variations or electoral
caprices? Was it both so huge and frightening that an
investigation committee was set up to study this strange stuff
and develop new technologies from it, just in case... To keep
their hands free, and to avoid alarming the citizens, these
people might have turned away enormous resources, have benefited
and may still benefit today from protections. A sort of State
within the States.... Indeed, this looks like what you claim
here and there... Surprisingly enough, a US TV series, which has
become a "cult" series, tells exactly the same story! Do you
know someone called Chris Carter? Is the truth really else
where? If someone wanted us to believe it, it is exactly the
right way to do it!

All these facts are crucial to the evaluation of the UFO
phenomenon. Good questions were asked. Facts were established.
Double checks were exposed here, and other will be brought to
your attention in the following chapters.

Is it possible, indeed, to evaluate the role of D'Amato without
taking in account the peculiarities of his main "boss": Sen.
Byrd. In this respect, it is possible - but not proven - that
D'Amato could also be the spokesman of one of the more important
Internet access provider: America On Line (AOL). If he is, he
would then also be the person who proposed to "release" some
personal data concerning the AOL subscribers. For the sake of
developing the electronic business, he said, adding that this
would be done in full accordance with the current laws. AOL has
millions of subscribers around the world. Because all data
transferred to and from Internet are systematically recorded
within the computers of the provider, one can get a very
accurate view of Monsieur D'Amato's main interests, goals,
opinions and character... Besides, the fact that this company
decided to "sell" private data on their customers is certainly
not agreeable to everybody.

Good to know that anyway! But what follows is not less
interesting...


* PART 2/2: Senator Robert C. Byrd


LINKS TO THE REFERENCES


* Capital Online: Naval Surface Warfare Center group packs up
* Relevant Committees of the 104th U.S. Congress
*"archives"
*(Untitled)
*B:.B:. =A9
*Birds of a Feather No Longer: Policy Split Divides "Aviary"
UFO-Secrecy Group
*Capital Online: Academy may resume donating leftover food
*Capital Online: Mid-sponsorship program still strong despite recent
troubles at academ
*CENTER OF ATTENTION NEWSLETTER #19
*Committee on Appropriations
*Congressional Budget Office Home Page
*Deja News - Article
*Deja News - Article
*Deja News - Article
*Deja News - Article
*Deja News - Article
*Deja News - Article
*Deja News - Article
*Deja News - Article
*Deja News - Article
*Deja News - Article
*Deja News - Article1
*DSFP Panels and Poster Presentations for 1997 meeting
*HotBot results: D'Amato (151+)
*HotBot results: D'Amato (76+)
*HotBot results: Richard D'Amato (1+)
*Senators Kept Psychic Intelligence Program Alive, Staff Aides Say
*Stargate
*Roswell
*CICAP - I veggenti della CIA
*CQ NewsAlert - Committee Rosters
*DSFP Panels and Poster Presentations for 1997 meeting
*HotBot results: Richard C. D'Amato (26+)
*ISCNI*Flash 1.11
*talk.politics.space 93
*To Be Governed...
*AOL HANGS UP TELEMARKETING PLAN
*AMERICA ONLINE TELEMARKETING INFORMATIONS






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   Dec > Dec 8

                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 11:01:42 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:15:29 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


Tim

>From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: How To Film An Abduction
>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:49:53 -0600

>You want low tek, how bout this one? ;)

>An extremely strong type of double-sided tape, possibly the type
>used to secure carpeting to the floor, could be purchased in a
>few square feet and secured to the ground on a proper location
>to entrap an intruder (especially a feeble li'l grey).  We've
>dubbed this the "alien-paper" method.

Won't work either - I gather from reports that the little guys
are actually floating when they arrive.  But maybe you could
hang long strips of the stuff from the ceiling all around the
bed. Heck, attach a few bells to those strips too - that would
make a racket.  Just watch it when you get up to go to the john
:-)





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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Dec > Dec 8

                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:28:31 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:29:33 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


With regards to the so-called "Majestic Twelve Project:  1st
Annual Report," here are two other anachronisms.

Although the report mentions various Majestic-related studies,
reports, and historical events dating through 1950 and 1951,
thereby indicating this would have been written in 1951 or 1952,
the cover page lists Panel member Gen. Hoyt Vandenberg as the
"Vice Chief of Staff, United States Air Force."

Vandenberg was the Vice Chief of Staff in the summer of 1947 at
the time of the Roswell incident and the alleged formation of
MJ-12 in Sept. 1947, but became Air Force Chief of Staff in the
summer of 1948.  He _never_ would  have been referred to as the
"Vice Chief of Staff" in 1951 or 52.  No way!

This is a very glaring mistake that is impossible to ignore or
rationalize away.  It speaks hoax regardless of anything else.

Another anachronism is  much more subtle and obscure.  On page
9, item #11, it reads:

"Detection of a high altitude explosion was recorded by a
Project MOGUL constant level balloon on 4 July 1947.  Radar from
White Sands Proving Ground and HAFB [Holloman AFB Alamogordo]
also detected a surge."

Mogul records show an early morning launch of a Mogul on July 3
that crashed a few hours later (Mogul #8).  Another launch was
scheduled for later in the day to coincide with a V-2 launch.
This was supposed to be a test of the Mogul listening apparatus.
The V-2 was to carry explosives to high altitude, which
hopefully Mogul would detect after detonation.  After numerous
delays, the launch was supposed to go off at 7:30 pm, but a
serious accident on the pad forced cancellation.  The planned
Mogul launch was apparently scrubbed as well.

This Mogul (#9) was not listed in the official Mogul records,
but one of the senior scientists, Dr. Albert B. Crary kept a
diary.  It states that a "dummy" payload was attached and the
balloons, already inflated, were launched anyway. A dummy
payload suggests that the listening apparatus was removed.  Even
if it hadn't been, they generally lost contact with these
balloons within a few hours because they crashed, moved out of
range, or simply had their batteries go dead.  Therefore the
chances of this Mogul detecting an explosion on July 4 is slim
to none.

The next launch didn't occur until the early morning  of July 5,
again out of the July 4 frame.

So this seems to be another error, though not nearly so
devastating or obvious as the first one.

Somebody definitely seems to be having us on with this
particular document.

David Rudiak





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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Dec > Dec 8

                      UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 49

From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 20:36:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:41:59 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 49


    UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 3, Number 49
December 7, 1998
Editor: Joseph Trainor



UFOs SEEN BY MANY IN SOUTHERN DELAWARE

Tuesday morning, December 1, 1998, started out in a routine
manner for Dan Gafney, the popular talk-show host on radio
station WGMD, 92.7 FM, in Rehoboth Beach, Delaware
(population 1,250). But at 7 a.m., the telephone rang, and the
first caller reported a UFO.

According to Gafney, before the show ended, he had
received "over 50 calls" from listeners throughout Sussex
County, Delaware reporting unidentified flying objects.

The UFOs were seen on Monday night, November 30, 1998
"all over southern Delaware," Gafney reported, with callers
describing "a bright blue/white light...some said green, also."
The UFOs were described as "large and round."

"People are still talking about it," he added.

UFOs were seen over a large area between Milford, Del.
(population 6,040) to Bethany Beach, Del. (population 110).
Milford is about 20 miles (32 kilometers) south of Dover, the
state capital. Rehoboth Beach is 26 miles (41 kilometers)
southeast of Milford. And Bethany Beach is 13 miles (21
kilometers) due south of Rehoboth Beach.

One man reported "what appeared to be a large blue light
that was moving all over erratically," adding that "the smaller
lights appeared to be coming from the larger lights.

Another caller reported seeing "a strange blue-green rain that
was coming down from them."

Local researcher Jane Segal received a phone call from
friends saying that, during the WGMD broadcast, "fighters
from Dover Air Force Base were flying all over the region.
Gray planes were flying as low as a crane as far north as
Middletown."

Middletown (population 3,834) is on Highway 71 near the
Pennsylvania state line, located about 26 miles (41
kilometers) northwest of Dover. (Many thanks to Dan Gafney
and Jane Segal for the email interviews.)


UFOs DOMINATE NIGHT SKY OVER ARKANSAS

Arkansas, home state of President William Jefferson Clinton,
has been the scene of much UFO activity during the past
month.

On Wednesday, November 11, 1998, at 11:55 a.m., Ms. R.M.
Jones drove through Alexander, Arkansas (Ark.), a town on
Interstate Highway 30 about 13 miles (21 kilometers)
southwest of Little Rock, the state capital. As she was
heading south on the highway, she looked up and spotted two
daylight discs flying through the sky.

"They were beautiful," Ms. Jones reported, "Although they
were both discs, they did not look the same. The first was
larger, white, more stationary and lasted longer. The second
was a white cigar sort of thing, sort of shimmery. They were
larger than any star or planet. I watched each craft for several
minutes." (See Filer's Files #46 for 1998. Many thanks to
George A. Filer of MUFON for this report.)

On Tuesday, November 10, 1998, "Frank Caruso and his
friends saw something besides the 300-plus buzzards they
were looking for near Valley Airport," located near Mountain
Home, Ark. (population 9,029).

According to the Baxter Bulletin of Mountain Home, Caruso
said "he and friends Jim Bradley and Jim Fishwick saw what
they call 'a gold-like object' in the southern sky along the
White River around 5:10 p.m. Tuesday. The three men were
watching a large number of buzzards roost when when the
object appeared in the distance behind the birds."

"'It was too far away to tell what shape it was,' Caruso said,
adding it slowed down and had a trail of gold-looking vapors
that dissipated quickly. He said the object was in the sky for
at least two minutes."

"'I've worked with gold and silver before,' he said, 'but it wasn't
really either color--it's hard to explain exactly what color it was,
but it was sort of gold-ish.'"

"The Bulletin contacted Beaver County Sheriff's officials and
Mountain Home Police personnel, who said they had not
received any reports of the object." (See the Baxter Bulletin
for November 11, 1998, "UFO? Trio claims to have seen
'gold' object," by Bruce Roberts.)

"Another man who lives near Valley Airport, who wished to
remain anonymous, told the Bulletin Wednesday that he saw
two 'powerful lights' in the same general area at the top of a
mountain Monday night (November 9, 1998)."

"'I know it wasn't a car or truck,' the man said. 'It was too
bright, and, besides, there's no way a vehicle can get to the
top of that mountain--the forest is too dense, and there are no
roads.'"

"The man said he 'doesn't believe in aliens' and has never
seen a UFO, but he was sure of the lights, which he said
stayed in one place for about 25 minutes."

"Early the next morning, at around 3 a.m., the man's dogs
awoke him, 'raising hell.'"

"'They never bark,' he said. 'Unless there's somebody at the
door. I didn't see anybody, so I told them to shut up, and I went
back to bed.'" (See the Baxter Bulletin for November 12,
1998, "'UFO' mystery continues," by Bruce Roberts.)

The sightings are being investigated by MUFON investigator
Christine Lippert.

Mountain Home, Ark. is on Highway 5 about 175 miles (280
kilometers) north of Little Rock.

On Sunday, November 29, 1998, at 7:55 , a witness who
asked to remain anonymous "was at my brother's yard" in
West Memphis, Ark. "when I looked up and saw a
triangle-shaped craft flying just above the tree tops. I got a
good look at it because the streetlights were shining on the
bottom of the shiny silver craft. It had dim yellow lights on each
corner. It was flying horizontal to the ground, and then the nose
of it rose to a 45-degree angle, and it kept flying straight
ahead. The craft then turned sharply to the left and
disappeared behind the tree line."

He added that within minutes "several low-flying planes began
circling" the area "for 30 seconds, and then they left also."

West Memphis (population 28,259) is located along Highway
70 approximately 129 miles (206 kilometers) east of Little
Rock. (Many thanks to Michael J. Long of Mississippi UFO
Files for this report. Thanks also to Lou Farrish of UFO
Newsclipping Service for the articles from the Baxter Bulletin.)


UFO SEEN IN OKLAHOMA CITY DURING A LEONID
METEOR SHOWER

On Tuesday, November 17, 1998, at 4:10 a.m., Bill M. and
Carroll Y. decided to take a break from work and go outdoors
to watch the Leonid meteor storm. "We work the night shift
together and had a little lull in activity allowing us to do so," Bill
said.

For five minutes, they stood in the parking lot of their
workplace in Oklahoma City, "then Carroll shouted, 'Look!
What the hell is that!?"

"That's when we saw the bright light for about two to four
seconds," Bill reported. "The light was brighter than any seen
before, be it plane landing lights or otherwise. Then it
extinguished."

"As we were discussing its origin, we witnessed
approximately ten meteors. Then he (Carroll) again shouted
and pointed in almost the same direction" at a UFO, which he
described as "at the front were three orange-colored lights
traveling northeast to southwest in a triangular position. The
lights were traveling at the same speed, as if they were
attached to the same object. We stared at this until it was out
of vision (view). The whole encounter lasted about 10 to 12
seconds."

Bill added that he is "willing to submit to a polygraph test," if
necessary. (Many thanks to Jim Hickman of Skywatch
International for forwarding this report.)


LARGE UFO SIGHTED SOUTH OF MONTREAL

On Sunday, November 29, 1998, at 10:30 p.m., Jenifer
Migneault and her husband were driving on Highway 10 in
Quebec, Canada, between the cities of Montreal and
Sherbrooke (population 76,429).

"My husband and I were coming back from a dinner with
friends," Mrs. Migneault reported. "Our two children were
sleeping in the car seat, in the back seat. They didn't see a
thing."

But the Migneaults did! "We saw 15 white lights circling far
above the clouds," she reported. "Ten lights formed a
semi-oval shape, and five others formed a smaller one inside
the larger one. We didn't see it approach. It was already there
when we got on the highway. Since it was located above the
clouds, all we could see were the lights spinning on
themselves (revolving--J.T.) and the whole thing moving."

Mrs. Migneault said, "The moves it made were of a C shape"
and "25 minutes we had it in view."

"When we stepped out of the car to look at it, we turned off the
ignition to see if any noise was coming out of the thing. But
we didn't hear anything. It was dreadfully silent. We left before
it did. We kept an eye contact with it (kept it in view--J.T.) for
at least 20 kilometers (12 miles)." (Email Interview)


UFO HOVERS OVER A HOUSE IN KIRKINTILLOCH,
SCOTLAND

On Sunday, November 29, 1998, at 3:28 a.m., David Walker
reported, "I was awoken by something... I was aware of a
bright light which I thought was an aircraft coming in to land,
as I never aware of a star as bright as this."

"I was about to go back to sleep when I saw the object move. I
rubbed my eyes and looked again. If it was an aircraft, it could
not possibly have moved in such a way. I watched as the
object split in two, and the two lights started to dance around
each other in figures of eight and circles. They seemed to be
at play."

Instantly David roused everyone in the household at
Kirkintilloch, Scotland. "I was totally transfixed by this and
could not take my eyes off the objects...I was frightened by
what I saw, and I knew this was not a dream...and it was my
mother who also witnessed the phenomenon before it
ceased." (Many thanks to Ben Field and BUFOD and Errol
Bruce-Knapp for this report.)


UFOs CONVERGE ON BRISBANE

Brisbane, the largest city in Queensland state, Australia,
reported three UFO encounters last week.

On Wednesday, December 2, 1998, at 7:30 p.m., Troy S.
was in Brisbane's Clayfield section when he spotted a "bright
white light four times the size of Venus" moving across the
night sky. Then "it took off in a straight-line course to the
horizon faster than any plane I had ever seen before."

Also on December 2, at 11:55 p.m., Peter Mac and five
friends were in Hill End, Brisbane when they saw "a flaming
orange ball of light travelling from east to west, travelling
around the same speed of a plane." He estimated the UFO to
be "30 meters in size," adding "it went to the top of Mount
Cootoothla and disappeared."

The same evening, at 10:30 p.m., a college couple in East
Brisbane had a strange "missing time" experience.

The woman reported, "My boyfriend went out to pack his bag
(with textbooks). When he came back into the bedroom, he
found the clock to read 12:25 a.m. I got up to check the clock
in the kitchen. It also read 12:25 a.m."

Although they believed that he'd only been gone a few
minutes to gather his textbooks, the apartment's clocks
showed that two hours had passed, two hours for which the
couple had no memory." (Many thanks to Diane Harrison of
UFO Network Australasia and Robert Frola of UFO
investigation Centre-Queensland for these reports.)


SLOVENIAN UFOLOGIST SAYS LJUBLJANA CASE A
HOAX

Milos Krmelj, MUFON representative for Slovenia and a
ufologist with 32 years of investigative experience, said the
recent UFO sighting at Ljubljana Barje was "a radio hoax."

The sighting, reported in last week's UFO Roundup, was said
to have taken place on October 29, 1998. According to
Krmelj, "On that date was the 60th anniversary of the famous
Orson Welles radio play," War of the Worlds, "about a
Martian attack on Earth."

Krmelj said CNN reported the anniversary in Slovenia, and
the station, Radio Slovenija VAL202 (98.9 FM), aired the
false UFO report as a joke.

"And they later admitted they were joking," Krmelj added, "so
that report is of no value. It was just one of those hoaxes put
out by irresponsible reporters."

Krmelj began investigating UFOs in 1966. He is the author of
one book on the subject and used to edit a small Slovenian
magazine devoted to UFOs. (Many thanks to Milos Krmelj
and Errol Bruce-Knapp for this report.)


ENDEAVOUR LINKS UP WITH ZARYA IN ORBIT

On Friday, December 4, 1998, the space shuttle Endeavour
"lifted off at 3:35 a.m. with a brilliant white flash" to "begin
assembling the international space station--a complex and
risky project that could have its white-knuckle moments." (See
the Boston, Mass. Herald for December 5, 1998, page 2)

The launch came 24 hours after a warning light aborted
Thursday's planned launch.

"Endeavour has just a ten-minute window-- from 3:31 a.m. to
3:41 a.m. to be launched... Thursday the clock ran out on the
attempt. A cockpit alarm that sounded four-and-a-half minutes
before a planned 3:38 a.m. liftoff forced managers to stop the
countdown while they studied the problem." (See USA Today
for December 4, 1998, page A-3.)

During the 12-day flight, Endeavour's crew will attempt to link
and activate two components of the space station.
Russian-built Zarya is already in orbit. The shuttle carried the
second station component, the module Unity, a docking tunnel
with multiple ports that costs $300 million.

Endeavour's commander is Bob Cabana, 49, a U.S. Marine
Corps colonel from Minneapolis, Minn.

Cosmonaut Sergei Krikalev, 40, is a veteran of one shuttle
mission and two missions aboard the Russian space station
Mir. He will be inspecting his future home on this flight. Once
the international space station is completed, Krikalev will be a
member of the first crew to board her in January 2000.

Shuttle pilot Rick Sturckow, 37, of Lakeside, Cal. is a Gulf
War veteran. This is his first spaceflight.

"Once Zarya and Unity are docked, spacewalkers Jerry Ross
and Jim Newman will go to work... Ross, 50, an Air Force
colonel from Crown Point, Ind. will ride at the end of the arm
on the first and third spacewalks while Newman steps into
space on a tether. Ross is NASA's most experienced
spacewalker with 23 hours on four excursions."

(Editor's Note: Jerry Ross is living his boyhood dream. Way
back in 1959, when Ross was in the fourth grade, he resolved
to join the astronaut corps.)

"Newman, 42, who is a computer expert from San Diego, will
ride the arm on the second spacewalk. He has made one
previous spacewalk lasting seven hours."

"Ross and Newman will have to hook up 40 electrical cables
between Unity and Zarya. They'll also install communication
antennae, handrails and other items on the outside of the
station."

The crew member with the trickiest job is Nancy Currie, 39, a
U.S. Army lieutenant colonel from Troy, Ohio. "Currie will
operate the shuttle's 50-foot-long robotic arm nearly every day
of Endeavour's 12-day mission. Among other things she'll
hoist Unity, a 12-ton piece of the station, out of the shuttle's
cargo bay. Then she'll use the arm to grab Zarya... and bring it
to within six inches of Unity, so the two can be joined in
space." (See USA Today for December 2, 1998,
"Construction crew set to blast off" by Paul Hovenstern, page
A-3)

Endeavour achieve a rendezvous with Zarya on Sunday,
December 6, 1998. The shuttle was flying at 50 miles per
second when the Russian module appeared in its windshield.

"'We've got a tallyho (visual sighting) on Zarya,' Cabana told
mission control in Houston, after the firing at 2:36 p.m. 'It's a
real bright star out there.'"

"Mission commander Robert Cabana lit the two engines on
either side of Endeavour's tail to slow the shuttle's advance..."

The firing slowed the shuttle from 50 miles per second to 5
miles per second, which matches Zarya's orbital speed.

"Cabana and pilot Rick Sturckow will employ a series of
brakes and thrusts to bring Zarya within reach of Endeavour
and its payload, the Unity module." (See the New York Daily
News for December 7, 1998, "Shuttle's Russian to an orbit
hookup," page 2.)


THE ROMANOVS AND THE ORENBURG CONNECTION

For years some people have claimed that Princess
Anastasia escaped the Ipatiev house in Yekaterinburg,
Russia, when her family was shot by the Bolsheviks. Now a
new book claims that her brother, Czarevich Alexei, also
escaped.

"On the night of July 17, 1918, when, according to the
historical record, the Czar (Nicholas II), the Czarina
(Alexandra), their five children and four servants were shot
dead by the Bolsheviks in Yekaterinburg, the 14-year-old boy
somehow managed to survive and escape with the help of
two friendly Bolshevik executioners."

According to the new book, THE ESCAPE OF ALEXEI, "He
was taken to Shadrinsk, 100 miles away, where he was
adopted by a peasant family name Filatov. The czarevich was
famously a hemophiliac...yet his gunshot wounds miraculously
healed, thanks to herbal remedies and raw meat prescribed
by the tribal peoples of the far north. For the next few years he
roamed as an orphan across the country, settling in 1930 in
the Tyumen region of Siberia, where he trained as a teacher.
In 1967, Filatov and his wife moved to Orenburg." (See the
New York Times for November 22, 1998, Review of Books,
page 46)

In addition to being the site of numerous UFO encounters
during the Nineteenth Century, the city of Orenburg was also a
"way station" on the Russian mystics' "underground railroad"
to the Himalayas.

Vasily Filatov, the reputed Romanov survivor, lived in
Orenburg until his death in 1988. Five years earlier, in 1983,
he entrusted the secret of his true identity to his son, Oleg
Filatov.

THE ESCAPE OF ALEXEI offers strong evidence that a
band of Himalayan masters may have tried to save the
Romanovs in 1918.

Czarina Alexandra owned a swastika pendant that had been
given to her by her controversial advisor, Grigori Efrimovich
Rasputin.

Rsputin had a close friend in St. Petersburg named P.A.
Badmaev. Born on the shores of Lake Baikal in 1851,
Badmaev studied to be a doctor in St. Petersburg. No sooner
had he established his practice, however, then he suddenly
pulled up stakes in 1875 and traveled to Tibet. He spent over
ten years in the Himalayas before returning to Russia, settling
first in Orenburg and later in St. Petersburg.

Badmaev specialized in "Tibetan healing" and herbal
medicine. He died in 1919.

(Editor's Note: In Japan, this Himalayan tradition is called
mikkyo. A wandering sage named Momochi Sandhayu
traveled in the Himalayas for several years before founding
the temple Eihoji-dera at Hojiro in south central Japan,
considered to be the seat of mikkyo study in the islands.)

Badmaev was also linked to the czarina through A.D.
Protopopov, another one of her close advisors.

One of the Yekaterinburg assassins, Sergei Ivanovich
Lyukhanov, was born in Chelyabinsk in 1875 and lived in
Orenburg in the 1890s, before taking a job at the Chelyabinsk
power station. He was in Orenburg when Badmaev returned
from Tibet.

If Lyukhanov was a double agent, if he was a secret acolyte of
the Badmaev group, then that might explain some of his
curious actions at the time of the Romanov murders.
Lyukhanov might have been one of the "friendly Bolshevik
executioners" who reportedly helped Alexei escape.


from the UFO Files...

1909: UFO TRAILS A TROLLEY IN MASSACHUSETTS

Continuing our look back at New England's "airship invasion"
of 1909, UFO Roundup presents yet another strange sighting
that took place the evening of December 22, 1909, when
supposed "airship inventor" Wallace J. Tillinghast was at his
home in Worcester.

"Among those who got a good look at the ship as it swiftly
speeded along was Motorman Gary Lane of the Boston &
Worcester Street Railway. He saw it about 6:20 (p.m.)
between Marlboro and Hudson as he was driving his (trolley)
car, and the ship kept ahead of him all the way to Marlboro.
The ship carried a bright light and attracted the attention of
large crowds of people as it passed along."

After pacing Lane's streetcar to Marlboro, the UFO flew west
toward Clinton. Halfway there, it suddenly veered southward
and returned to Worcester. Since its first appearance over the
city, word had spread, and now two thousand people stood
on Main Street, hoping for a glimpse of the "airship."

The object "traveled from 800 to 1,000 feet above the earth,
for a time passing up and down over the entire center of the
city from east to west, and later describing circles nearly over
City Hall. When the light appeared, there was a slight fall of
snow, and the moon and the stars were not visible. These
conditions remained the same up to about 9 o'clock when the
light disappeared to the southwest." (See the Marlboro,
Mass. Enterprise for December 23, 1909, page 1; and the
Pawtucket, R.I. Times for December 23, 1909, page 4. See
also Fortean Studies, Volume 1, "The New England Airship
Invasion of 1909," by Joseph Trainor, pages 63 and 64.)


That's it for this week. Seven days from now, we'll know what
happened (if anything) in Payson, Arizona. And if Jerry Ross
and Jim Newman were able to hook up all forty of those
electrical conduits linking Unity and Zarya. Join us then for
more saucer news from around the planet, brought to you by
"the paper that goes home-- UFO Roundup. See you then.






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                  Recent Pennsylvania UFO Sighting Reports

From: Stan Gordon <paufo@westol.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:59:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:47:50 -0500
Subject: Recent Pennsylvania UFO Sighting Reports


Some Recent Pennsylvania UFO Sighting Reports
From: Stan Gordon

PA UFO Hotline (24 hours) 724-838-7768
website: www.westol.com/~paufo

Reports of alleged UFO sightings, as well as other unusual
events from PA , have been reported throughout 1998.  Many of
the incidents have been determined to be natural or man-made in
origin. Some reports however are quite interesting and will
continue to be investigated.  The following are some recent
reports which have come to my attention.

Sept or October, 1998?-Coumbia ,PA (Lancaster County) I was
recently made aware of this report. The witness is interested in
knowing if other people in the area witnessed this phenomena, or
if there were any similar reports in other areas. The witness
states that he was on the Wrightsville-Columbia bridge around
8:30 P.M., "As I was looking out over the Susquehanna river, I
saw an unusual sphere appear. This sphere appeared to be about 3
times bigger than the full moon as was present that night.  The
location of this was about 5 to 10 miles south-southeast between
the Columbia-Washington boro area.  I'm not sure exactly how
long this illuminated though I watched a few minutes and was
stationary.  This sphere had a light orange- white pale
appearance and was left of the full moon adjacent to the river
hillside."

October 4, 1998-(Crawford and Indiana Counties.) Large
triangular object reported by motorists. Information on these
cases are still be gathered.

October 20, 1998-(Washington County) A woman and a young child
were driving through a rural area when they noticed what looked
like a large amber star. The "star" crossed over the road in
front of them and moved to their left.  The woman pulled her car
over and put her glasses on to observe the light better.  When
she turned on a light in the car, the object displayed various
colored lights and moved off.  A short distance down the road,
they again observed a large amber light which they felt was the
same object as was previously seen.

The driver pulled the car over again. She had a small camera
with her and attempted to photograph the light. She took two
shots, and the witness claims that after the flashes went off,
the amber light split into two silver balls that "began dancing
around, one leaping in an arc over the other."  The spheres
moved to the left and over the horizon. I am awaiting the
development of the pictures.

October 30,1998-Ford City (Armstrong County) Man was outside
when he noticed a bright orange ball of light.  During the
observation, the light moved in a straight across the sky from
the north. It then shot straight up and continued moving to his
left.  Then the light stopped, and went straight down.  He ran
inside and awoke his wife to come outside to look as well. His
wife told me it was unlike anything she had seen before and that
the object was much brighter and bigger than the stars appeared.
She observed the light moving across the sky then stop. "Then it
just took off faster than anything I ever saw before.  It left a
streak of light in the sky." Total observation time was about 3
minutes.

November 11, 1998-Between Greensburg and Jeannette (Westmoreland
County) The witness observed  a white fireball with a trail
moving from east to west at about 9:30 P.M.. Debris and white
sparks were falling as the object passed through the sky.
Observed for several seconds.

November 15, 1998-Youngstown, PA (Westmoreland) Sighted about
8:15 P.M. along the Chestnut Ridge, several people observed a
bright orange fireball with an orange tail moving west to east
in the direction of Ligonier.

November 16, 1998-Penn Hills, PA (Allegheny County) via the
National UFO Reporting Center. Motorist observed 4 objects over
about a 10 to 15 minute period. The objects wer reportedly
square shaped, were at a low altitude, and displayed red
flashing lights and three round lights. One object reportedly
hovered close to the witness before moving off, and no sound
could be heard from any of the objects.

November 22, 1998-Allentown,PA (Lehigh County) via the National
UFO Reporting Center. Daylight observation by a family who
reported seeing 5 silver disc-shaped  objects moving at a high
rate of speed from west to east.  The observation lasted about
25 seconds.

November 24, 1998-Wilmerding (Allegheny County) Man driving at
about 3 P.M. looking towards the southwest, he noticed two
contrails in the sky that crossed like an X. He pulled his car
over after noticing a silver-gray object (like the fuselage of a
helicopter) that rose straight up from below the contrails amd
moved quickly upwards through the sky above them. It then shot
straight down through the contrails and then it was gone from
sight. This object displayed no contrail.

If you have any additional information pertaining to these
reports or other PA cases please contact me.

Stan Gordon







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                  Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:46:04 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:51:00 -0500
Subject: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 23:49:28 -0500

>>From: William Sawers <wsawers@ihug.co.nz>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 23:02:33 +1300

>>One thing I would like to ask the list....

>>"When did the term 'Have a nice day' appear?"

>1970's, I believe. Of course, people could have started saying
>it in the '60s, but the widespread -- unavoidable -- cloying --
>use of the phrase is typically '70s. (There's a wonderful
>multivolume CD colleciton of 70s music called "Have A Nice
>Day.")

>Greg Sandow


Well Greg,

Yes, I think that was "a 70s type thing".  I just looked in my
Shakespeare anthology and can confirm that the phrase "have a
nice day" does not appear in any of his plays.

Today my nieces and nephews all say "have a happy", and the
slang at one point seemed to be moving toward "have a better
one".

Funny language, ain't it.  It never sits still for you to study.

Bob





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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:46:18 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:53:29 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 18:45:00 -0800
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>All,

>I've found these documents most interesting buy was suspicious
>of the use of "retrovirus", seemed out of place. BUT I found the
>following after a brief search of a couple of medical type
>sites, thought you all might be interestead.

>Seems they do go back quite a way.

>Neil.


Neil,

Very true that these things were known and studied for quite some
time.

But the term retrovirus to describe them was not used.  This phrase
is definitely late 70s in origin.

And that is the crux of this question, not whether such virii were
known under other names.

Bob






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 14:17:17 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:57:07 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet



>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 07:50:31 -0000


>Hi there Roger and co.

>Yes, I have had the same problems over here in Sunny Southport
>whilst downloading the "new" MJ-12 fantasy.   Having hoped for an
>enjoyable weekend of side-splitting amusement whilst reading
>this latest twaddle my computer totally froze and needed serious
>attention yesterday.    Zetnet, the ISP, were at a loss to explain
>what had happened - as was my rather expert computer programmer
>friend.....

>Tim Matthews.

If the twaddle is amateurish, the ability to get all the way
thru to your particular system is not;  assuming thats what
happened.

We should remember the role of coincidence ..  if enough of us
are looking at the same sites,  a few of us will crash in the
normal course of events.    I'm not saying that's the case here,
but ..

- LH






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                 Examining History/Origins Of "Retro-Virus"

From: Ryan S. Wood <rswood@igc.apc.org>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 01:41:59 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 09:48:19 -0500
Subject: Examining History/Origins Of "Retro-Virus"


[Non-subscriber Post]

Dear Interested Parties,

Many have voiced the concern that the term retro hyphen virus
(retro-virus) would not have been used in  a 1952 document like
the 1st Annual Report for the MAJESTIC TWELVE PROJECT. Let us
share with you the preliminary findings of the research we and
others have conducted.

The central question is the use of the phrase "retro-virus" .
Was it appropriate for the time? Was the term retro-virus in the
medical and science literature before 1952?

CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING:

1)  Form the dictionary, retro-,  a prefix occurring in
loanwords from Latin meaning "backward" (retrogress); used in
the formation of compound words (retrorocket); backward, back
behind. Could the term retro-virus just be legitimate jargon?

2)  There is no dispute whatsoever that the term "retrovirus",
single word no hyphen, was NOT in use before 1970. At a
conference around that time the current leaders in the early
retrovirus field, including John Coffin, Peter Vogt, Howard
Temin, David Baltimore, Peter Duesberg, Robin Weiss all
discussed the terminology that would apply to Temin's then new
discovery of RNA dependent DNA polymerase (subsequently known as
reverse transcriptase) and for which Temin and Baltimore shared
the Nobel prize in 1975. In fact, personal communications with
both Dr. Coffin and Dr. Vogt confirmed that the term retrovirus
was not in use prior to the conference. Neither Vogt nor Coffin
were remotely familiar with the term "retro-virus" either pre or
post 1970. Quite simply, the term "retro-virus" was never
hyphenated except perhaps by professionals outside the field of
Virology.

HOWEVER, THE  RETRO-VIRUS CASE IS NOT CLOSED YET

In searching for a possible alternative usage for the HYPHENATED
word retro-virus that could have been used pre-1970, we came
upon an interesting article, actually a requiem, written by
Peyton Rous in the January 28, 1949 issue of Science magazine,
volume 109, page 93.  Rous, was the famous discoverer of Rous
Sarcoma Virus, an extremely oncogenic (cancer causing)
retrovirus in chickens. Peyton Rous, in the requiem for his
friend Robert Green referred to Greene "he put the case for
viruses being 'RETROGRADE ORGANISMS' in a way which has not been
bettered (Science, 1935, Vol. 82, page 2132)"

Greene's original description, referred to viruses as
"retrograde organisms" meaning that ALL viruses were retrograde
organisms. They engaged in retrograde evolution. This was a
technical evolutionary term meaning that viruses, according to
Greene, were once self sufficient during early evolution and
then when they began to infect other organisms they came
increasingly to rely on their hosts' cellular and molecular
machinery to replicate.  Thus, viruses lost their ability over
time to replicate independently of their hosts.  They evolved in
a retrograde manner.  It is this retrograde evolution which ALL
viruses share that Peyton Rous refers to in the January 28, 1949
eulogy to his friend Robert Green.

THE FINAL TRUTH IS STILL TO BE FOUND IN THE LIBRARY

One reasonable scenario is that the writer of this section of
the 1st Annual Report of the MAJESTIC TWELVE PROJECT, perhaps
being obsessed with jargonizing, may have simply shortened the
term "retrograde virus" to "retro-virus".

When we find the term "retro-virus" in use in the literature
(open or declassified) prior to the 1952 will the loop be
closed. We invite all interested parties to review early copies
of the Journals Nature, Science, Journal of Experimental
Medicine and bacteria journals written between 1940 and 1952 in
order to test our hypothesis. Look for articles relating to
viruses and pathology.

Another scenario is that the public and classified bacteriology
experts of the time used retro-virus as a normal, logical and
appropriate terminology. We need to remember the actual
quotation from the 1st annual report: "samples extracted from
the bodies in New Mexico, have yielded new strains of a
retro-virus not totally understood, but, give promise of the
ultimate BW." (Biological Weapon)  Clearly, if this is true only
a few cleared for TOP SECRET experts from both the Medical Corps
and selected academic or commercial pharmaceutical organizations
would have been involved.

It is important to realize that the cutting edge of virology was
likely dealing with agents that could be weaponized. Agents like
anthrax, botulism, or others that we are not aware of.  It is
the public papers of the leading medical experts of the time or
declassified or still classified biological research literature
that hold the ultimate resolution to the term "retro-virus".
Who were the early, circa 1952, experts in biological research
that had weapons potential?  Are they alive today?  Can they be
found and interviewed?

By showing that the bacteriologists of the time had classified
ties it would reinforce the "reverse sciencing" theme that shows
up all through the 1st Annual Report. Thereby, clearly adding
additional support to the authenticity of the 1st Annual Report
of the MAJESTIC TWELVE PROJECT.





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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 23:38:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:07:09 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 18:48:41 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


<snip>

>Let me address these serious, substantiative issues.

>What harm has been done?

>We all know that in the last fifty years this field has made
>suprisingly little progress considering the obvious talent
>of many participants.

>Why should this be?

>The answer is that it has been shot full of agents from the very
>beginning.  That is, everywhere you turn you run into a veterans
>of this other world, intelligence and counterintelligence, even
>on this list.


Nah.  There may have been disinformation activities directed toward
certain individuals over the years, but this , in my opinion is small
potatoes compared to the following:

1) AF refused to allow scientists and interested investiagtors
to have complete access to reports,

2) AF made statements that led th public to believe that the AF
was treating the subject seriously (we are investigating) and
that the AF found no evidence of technolgy beyond that which we
already knew and that ther was evidence of ET activities

3)  The scientific community  could think of no theoretical
justification for the idea of ET visition (you can't here fro m
there... too far) and so supported the AF position (without
knowing of the AF data!)

4) the press "running dogs of the AF" followed along an
ridiculed witnesses

5) the BIG ONE:::::................ the _self_cover_up_!

No one really wanted to know the truth because they weren't sure
that if they knew the truth they would be free!

Even AF intelligence partook of te self-cover up by refusing to
admit to itself that it couldn't explain many sightings and that
many sightings had all the attributes of a phenomenon indicating
_other_intelligences_ messing around with the earth and its
population.

All 5 of these worked together in th first few years to
establish a _tradition_ that UFOs are garbage. _Tradition_ is so
important you could hire a portly gentleman to dance around and
sing about it (Fiddler on the Roof).   . We are still stuck in
that tradition.  Disnformation efforts have only helped to add
to it by discrediting people who have "fallen" for the
disinformation.

As for myself, I'll just climb back into the trenchs and slug it
out with the individual sightings by normal, honest people who,
so far as I can tell,. have no axe to grind.  (I recently
completed such an investigation.)






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                  Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 16:09:48 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:08:51 -0500
Subject: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 23:49:28 -0500

>>From: William Sawers <wsawers@ihug.co.nz>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 23:02:33 +1300

>>One thing I would like to ask the list....

>>"When did the term 'Have a nice day' appear?"

>1970's, I believe. Of course, people could have started saying
>it in the '60s, but the widespread -- unavoidable -- cloying --
>use of the phrase is typically '70s. (There's a wonderful
>multivolume CD colleciton of 70s music called "Have A Nice
>Day.")


Greg (& List),

Here in Oz 'Have a nice day' is seen as a very insincere thing
to say thanks to its compulsory usage (after its introduction to
Oz) by that other ghastly US import - McDonalds. It then got
picked up by the supermarket chains and now pops out robotically
by those who serve us just about everywhere.

If someone stumbles on a method for its un-invention please let
me know a.s.a.p.

Leanne   ];-)







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                           Fawcett Working On Book

From: Stig Agermose  <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 01:49:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:10:46 -0500
Subject: Fawcett Working On Book


Source: Burlington Times-News. Published on the Web December 7.

URL: http://www.times-news.freedom.com/stories/news/news1_dec7.htm

Stig

*******


UFO Group seeks answers in meeting

By STACY PETERSON
Times-News

GREENSBORO =97 About 40 people gathered quietly Sunday in
Greensboro to continue their search for the truth about UFOs.

The event marked the biannual meeting of MUFON-NC, or Mutual UFO
Network of North Carolina. Members from across the state meet in
marathon sessions twice a year to discuss recent sightings and
investigations into the paranormal.

The group gathered to talk about UFOs, alien abduction and the
role aliens have played in technology and the modern world. The
meeting was formal and included exhibits, a 90-minute video
lecture and discussion.

One member recently received her doctorate. Another member, a
former technical writer for IBM, promoted a recent book.

But only one agreed to have his name printed in the Times-News.
The reason most refused: The agenda, they said.

George Fawcett of Lincolnton helped start MUFON 10 years ago.
Since then, he has helped organize 35 meetings in 22 North
Carolina cities.

Fawcett is also working on a book called "UFOs and the UFOnaunts
in the Carolinas," which tracks unexplained activity throughout
the state during the past 54 years. He and a co-benefactor
recently donated 45,000 UFO items worth about $178,000 to the
UFO Museum and Research Center at Roswell, N.M.

Most UFO activity in North Carolina occurred in the 1960s and
1970s between the Triad to the southwest corner of the state,
according to a map the group uses to pinpoint reports. Most
sightings are reported between midnight and 9 a.m.

Sunday=92s testimonials included talk of past Big Foot sightings,
which some believe are connected to UFOs, and how technology has
been influenced since the earliest UFO encounters.

Participants spoke of a UFO explosion in 1973 above High Point
and a reported landing that caught media attention the same year
in Mount Airy. =BF =BF


Times-News copyrights apply to all stories and pictures produced
by the paper's staff.

Republication in any form only with written permission.





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                 Re: Security [was:'New' MJ-12 Documents...]

From: Jacquie Cosford <millpond@shaw.wave.ca>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 21:44:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:16:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Security [was:'New' MJ-12 Documents...]


>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 08:33:38 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Sean Jones <Tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 21:06:12 -0800
>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>Larry commented

>>I like Jan Aldrich's idea: Use a dummy/temporary/free
>>email address, if you are curious. I'm not even going to do
>>that, but hope others do, so we can all learn the nature of
>>_this_ murky little operation.

>As for backups, after a disaster last year I run two
>hard-drives. One with all the OS and application software on and
>one with all my database UFO files and etc etc on it. I also run
>dedicated security/anti-hacking software just to be on the safe
>side.

Geeze, talk about conspiracies!!  I spent quite a bit of time at
that site before the discussions began about the integrity
and/or ulterior motives of the author. Wish I'd known sooner.

BTW....anything I can do to protect myself now??






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   Dec > Dec 8

                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 17:12:07 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:12:57 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


>From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: How To Film An Abduction
>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:49:53 -0600

>>From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
>>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: How To Film An Abduction
>>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:04:18 -0500

>Rick,

>You want low tek, how bout this one? ;)

>An extremely strong type of double-sided tape, possibly the type
>used to secure carpeting to the floor, could be purchased in a
>few square feet and secured to the ground on a proper location
>to entrap an intruder (especially a feeble li'l grey).  We've
>dubbed this the "alien-paper" method.

><grin>


Tim, Rick & List,

I prefer 'The Entire Floor Blanketed With Sprung Mouse/Rat
Traps' method. This is bound to snare results ;-)

Apropo the camera: it should be encased in a Faraday cage to
minimize EMF interference and closely wrapped in aluminium foil
(the camera, not the cage) if the camera case is magnetic - if
it isn't do it anyway. A cheap Faraday cage can be made from
copper insect screening and don't forget to ground it.

Regards,
Leanne  ];-)






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                         Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 18:59:55 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:19:06 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:02:50 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer


>>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer
>>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 22:22:01 -0800

>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer
>>>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 03:58:17 EST

>>>Oh, and BTW, tell me if you don't know the story about the
>>>real Canal Street in NYC...

<snip>

>And to add to that, you got the world's _best_ lime rickey for a
>nickel.... God help me but I loved that place.  But, they then
>paved paradise, and put up a world trade center for some slope
>head to bomb.


Jim & List,

As much as I applaud your great good fortune in finding the
treasure of a lifetime I must take exception to your use of the
term 'slope head'. I find it a highly offensive, peurile,
obnoxious, childish and unworthwhile-of-this-List term. I
believe an apology to the List is in order . . . no wonder
staying on this list is so arduous.

Gesundt-hite Jim.

Leanne  ];-)







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                        Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed...

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 23:42:27 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:22:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed...


>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 20:32:16 -0600 (CST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed...

>Mike,

>It continues to amaze me as to why so many ufologists are so
>hesitant to apply the most basic journalistic rules of
>confirmation. If the man seeks the attention of the media, but
>still won't supply the evidence that would confirm his story,
>which he apparently claims to have, then forget him.

>It's as simple as that.

<snip>

Hi Dennis...

I appreciate your post and for the most part I agree with you.
However, He is not actively seeking attention any longer.  He
tells people who want to listen to him, but does not seek out
the News Media.  He did this back in 1989...that's how I learned
about him.

I talked with him Sunday, Dec, 6th, and he told me once again,
that he would not allow me to access his medical records. He
also informed me, that though he liked me, he considered me
pushy and very forceful...<shrug>

He said I had made him angery several times in the past with my
agressive attitude.  He even got to the point of thinking about
not talking to me any more, but thought better of it. He was
interested in "My Motive" for pushing so hard to obtain
information from him.

I told him I just wanted to get to the truth of it.  He said his
physical condition spoke for itself.  He only developed it after
his encounter...and the doctors could not explain what happened
to him.

I guess, I will just keep in touch from time to time with him
Dennis, but as far as I am concurned, the case is closed.
I have found out all I can from him and his wife.

Take care, and thanks again.

REards, Mike

ICQ#:7508455.
(502) 683-6811






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                         Re: UFOs And The Real World

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:45:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:29:21 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs And The Real World


UFOs And The Real World

The first question the serious minded person has to ask about
UFOs is this:  Are they important in some way?  If the answer to
this question ever becomes "no" then they become a waste of
time.

Fortunately, a look at the history of the UFO shows them to be
very important, even to the security apparatus of the United
States government and military.  For many of them the UFO had
serious social, cultural and even political overtones and "the
UFO field" was _not_ to be left to its own devices.  As the
Roberston Panel clearly indicated, partly as a result of the
surveillance of what UFO groups then existed, such groups had
definite negative possibilities and should be watched and
countered if necessary.

Now, what have we learned over the last 30 years or so about
U.S. domestic intelligence?  Well, those of us who have been
paying attention have learned that U.S. domestic security
personnel watch and infiltrate nearly _every_ civilian group of
any consequence at all, especially groups which attain any
cachet at all, in fringe fields that likewise attain such
cachet.  Folks, this kind of activity is on the public record,
as is  the fact that _many_ of the well-known participants in
_this_ field had (and have) connections to the
intelligence/counterintelligence world.

Now, we can be smart, or we can be stupid.  We can put our head
in the sands or we can wake up and look around.  We can take
people at absolute face value in spite of their backgrounds and
actions, or we can do some analysis and vetting.

In the case of Dr. Hynek, who no doubt was a charmer and loved
his wife, children and dog, he had the _exact_ paramaters of
someone doing domestic intelligence/counterintelligence.  In
1969 Dr. James McDonald blasted Hynek for what can only be
called either monumental incompetence or deliberate malfeasance.
If you read Vallee closely it could be _both_, if Hynek's files
were in as bad a shape as Vallee says.  That is, what in hell
was Hynek doing if his personal UFO files were a disaster,
seemingly stripped of everything of value?  Well, it could be
that the _good_ information went up the chain, couldn't it?
Yes, it could.

Now, what in 1998 did the Sturrock panel say about the
"scientific" output of UFOdom in the years _since_ Condon?
Hmmm?  Well, they said it was of no real conseqence, didn't
they?  Didn't they?  Yes, they did!  And if you really _study_
the situation you will find that they are correct!

What was Hynek doing with CUFOS?  Well, it's the strong
possibilty that its purpose was to continue a policy of domestic
security, a policy set in the 1950s, that the civilian study of
UFOs was to be kept within certain bounds, at least as far as
"respectable" study was concerned.  When the press or a citizen
called, Hynek was ready with an answer, a safe, predictable
answer, calm, rational, and safe. Many on this list have
attested to this through their personal experiences.  And when
some professional wanted to get into UFOs, there was Hynek,
providing a safe haven.

Folks, what Hynek could have been _doing_, was obvious and if
you look at what is on the public record it is obvious.  And
everywhere you look in this field, if you bother to look, you
see the fingerprints of domestic security.  That's because the
UFO is important, very important, to a lot of people.  And if
you don't believe UFOs are important then what are you doing in
the field?  If your answer is in the affirmative, then you will
understand why operatives of domestic security have been and
continue to be players on in the UFO arena.  It's the price we
pay.

Gary





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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Tues, 8 Dec 1998 00:25:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:34:44 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 18:48:41 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

>>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 04:35:36 -0600

<snip>

>Let me address these serious, substantiative issues.

>What harm has been done?

>We all know that in the last fifty years this field has made
>suprisingly little progress considering the obvious talent
>of many participants.

>Why should this be?

>The answer is that it has been shot full of agents from the very
>beginning.  That is, everywhere you turn you run into a veterans
>of this other world, intelligence and counterintelligence, even
>on this list.

>I am not going to give away the rest of the answers to your
>questions as I am writing a book on this very subject.

>I will however note, that it is a tribute to the skill and
>tenacity of this group of operatives that they continue to do
>their jobs with almost no one in ufology being any the wiser.

>Gary

Gary, thanks for making some effort to reply to my questions.
Still, you could have easily ventured to give us one single
substantial example of a specific act these men may have
committed.

This would have generated some real interest in your upcoming
book.

Instead you further abuse us with generalized implication and
vague conjecture.  I would be apprehensive of the tenor of your
response if someone was to ask you what color the daylight sky
is.  I have a growing suspicion that some agency has highjacked
Gary Alevy's electronic identity and turned it over to some
cyber obsfuscation algorithym...

Bye...  Ted..






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                       Abductions and Researcher Bias

From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 00:47:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:45:48 -0500
Subject: Abductions and Researcher Bias


If I may;

After following a few of the various discussions re abductions
recently on this list (especially ones focusing heavily on
social factors), thought the following might be of interest.

Soruce: The Devil's Advocate www.devilsadvocate.base.org
(originally appeared in the print zine).

"Abductions and Researcher Bias" or "Why Does every Abduction
Researcher always find his own Favorite Breed of Alien?"

by
Martin Kottmeyer

Excerpted from The Devil's Advocate #6

You have just surveyed a little over a dozen abduction
investigators who have collectively handled over 1700 cases. You
learn 4 of them say they have a generally favorable attitude
about the nature of abduction experiences; 3 of them say such
experiences are generally negative. You say to yourself this is
a nice opportunity to test whether or not there is an
investigator effect shaping the experiences of those they work
with.

You meticulously compile and collate the survey data. Finally
you get the following results:

Abductees with positive-attitude investigators more often feel
positive about their abduction experiences. Their reactions to
the entities are more often positive. The entities are perceived
more often as warm and cordial. More often one of the entities
seems familiar or caring. The abductees more often see
themselves as partners in the experience. They more often may
even identify themselves as alien. On the downside they more
often have vague anxieties after their experiences.

Abductees with negative-attitude investigators, on the other
had, more often feel negative about their experiences. They hate
and dislike the beings more often. The beings themselves are
more often perceived as cold and business-like. The abductees
see themselves more often as victims.

Do you conclude A) Clearly it makes a difference which
investigator an abductee goes to and it would be prudent to
recommend that anyone wanting to explore an abduction experience
seek a positively-opinionated investigator; or B) Despite many
claims and fears to the contrary, the investigators' hand proves
almost invisible, its touch nearly negligible in formulating the
abduction.

Though you have now resolved the pragmatic issue to everyone's
satisfaction, your work is not yet done. You also want to know
if these attitudes influence the imagery and plot of abduction
stories. You look down the data columns and what you read goes
something like this:

Positive attitude investigators have a lower percentage of
humanoids and standard Grays and a higher percentage of
human-like Nordics in their files. Their cases are less likely
to involve missing time and the experiences are shorter in
duration. Unexpectedly, examination experiences are more common,
but they are less likely to involve implants, manual handling,
and the genitals. The aliens less often give threats or orders
to forget. More often they give tours of the ship and school the
abductee. Like the Space Brothers of the contactees they warn
about future catastrophes and cataclysms more often. Their
abductees are more likely to show increased psychic abilities.
There are some puzzles. Their abductions more often involve
paralysis. The crafts are more often disc-like. The interiors
are more often cool and indirectly lit.

Negative attitude investigators, in contrast, have higher
percentages of humanoids, and standard Grays. Curiously, the
trait of vestigial noses is more common. The examinations more
often involve implants, manual handling, and the genitals are
less likely to involve sample-taking. In line with the Hopkins
scenario, there are more scenes involving nurseries and hybrids.
Their abductees are less likely to be given tours of the ship.
They are more often threatened and ordered to forget. There are
fewer warnings about future catastrophes. They more often have
body scars and marks. There is less about increased psychic
abilities or changes in habits following the experiences. There
are also some puzzles. There are more otherworldly journeys.
There are more messages of reassurance. There is less anxiety
during their capture, less paralysis. Their experiences are
longer. The crafts are less likely to be disc-shaped. The rooms
are more likely to be rectangular or wedge-shaped and less often
indirectly lit. Finally, their abductees are less likely to
suffer nausea or diarrhea after an experience.

Do you conclude A) The results make more sense than not. Those
details that don't make sense seem less central to the drama of
the story and might be resolvable by further study; or B) The
meaning of any relationship between attitude and description
escapes ready comprehension.

You have likely already guessed that this study is not
hypothetical. It was part of a much larger study conducted by
Thomas E. Bullard and recently published by the Fund for UFO
Research under the title The Sympathetic Ear: Investigators as
Variables in UFO Abduction Reports. The results reported here
are my reading of data columns P and N of his Table 37. If you
picked A for your conclusions, your assessment matches mine. If
you picked B, you conclusions match the author of the study.
They are quotes respectively from the summary after the title
page and from page 89. I singled out that part of the study,
most of which is excellent by the way, as the most relevant test
of Philip Klass's observation that Leo Sprinkle's abductees
report kinder, gentler aliens than Budd Hopkins. He felt it was
not coincidence that the personal beliefs of the investigators
seemed to color the experiences of their subjects. While Bullard
cites Klass's opinion as what is under test, he seems to forget
the specifics of what Klass says as the argument goes along and
ends up fighting against some exaggerated position that no
skeptic I know of ever advanced. Bullard's data replicates what
Klass says and the central pragmatic issue of whether it is
advisable to point abductees to positively-minded investigators
is demonstrated as prudently correct.

Why does Bullard offer the conclusions in the B quotes? It
appears to be that he regards the puzzles in the data as so
paramount that they vitiate any claim for a real investigator
effect. Some details are completely unaffected by the attitude
of the investigator. Though fair enough as a question of what is
involved in a full portrait of the abduction phenomenon, the
fact remains that the data does not contradict the specific
claims that have been made by the critics he cites.

It would be interesting to know how many readers of this study
accept Bullard's conclusion without looking at the table of
results. The main reason I bothered to double-check things was
because the two lines I quoted seemed too unlikely. One can't
read the UFO abduction literature without seeing the hand of the
investigator is all too visible. Some examples:

# Christie totally accepts the idea of Space Brothers and has
participated in workshops were she chats with beautiful space
beings. She attends a meeting between her boyfriend and Budd
Hopkins and is eventually regressed, yielding an experience
involving needles in her nose and vagina. Hopkins concludes that
her change of mind proves the Space Brothers are a myth and that
abductions are traumatically real (Int'l UFO Reporter, Jan/Feb.
1987); # John Mack repeatedly asks abductees why hybrids, if
they are to repopulate a post-holocaust earth, seem so listless
and wan. Next we learn Jerry has an abduction where the hybrid
is seen as beautiful, angelic, young adults. Peter proclaims
they do not appear listless to him, but have a vitality all
their own. (Abduction, p. 415); # David Jacobs finds aliens that
are totally non-human and avers that contactee claims are a
convenient touchstone for deciding which reports are probably
bogus. (Secret Life, pp. 236, 284.) Richard Boylan's subjects
gets a variety suggestive of at least a dozen races and they
often share human characteristics like a reverence for life and
the importance of caring for children. A chapter devoted to
messages from these experiences is filled with material
identical to that of the contactees of the Fifties right down to
an advocacy of vegetarianism. (Close Extraterrestrial
Encounters, chapter 14, 15.)

Each would doubtless insist their methods are superior, their
results more believable, than the prior views. Doubtless, too,
their subjects agree. Somebody's wrong here. I would not be
shocked if everybody's wrong here. Since ufologists are to some
extent getting what they believe, be careful which views you
side with. I wonder if we could convince Camille Paglia to take
up ufology. I'd love to see what sort of aliens she'd find.




1-3-'97



)+(
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."
)+(






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                        Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed...

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 01:49:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:13:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed...

>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 20:32:16 -0600 (CST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed...

>>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 11:43:13 -0600
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abductee Not Paralyzed....

>>This gentleman is very adament about not contacting his doctors.
>>He wants that part of his personal life to remain
>>uninvestigated.

<snip>

>Sorry, but I think you ought to call his bluff. No more leads
>and hints, just the facts, ma'am, that is, the medical records.
>If he can't or won't supply them, then something's seriously
>wrong here.

>Don't take no for an answer.

>Dennis


Hi All,

The oportunities when I agree with Sasquatch (Dennis) are so few
and far in between that I can't pass on them when they do come
up. <G> Dennis writes:

>Sorry, but I think you ought to call his bluff. No more leads
>and hints, just the facts, ma'am, that is, the medical records.
>If he can't or won't supply them, then something's seriously
>wrong here.

I agree! If someone is going before the public to report they
-should be willing to substantiate the account- in any way that
they can. If this guy has medical records then like the man
said, "just the facts, ma'am." He doesn't have to compromise his
anonymity. There are ways to have the records checked without
revealing his identity. He can provide "proof" without risking
exposure. It just has to be handled with care and responsibility.

Peace,

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________





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                            UFO Anthology CD-ROM

From: Dreamland Interactive <ovni@4dreamland.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 22:55:12 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:20:19 -0500
Subject: UFO Anthology CD-ROM


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           Burbank, Ca 91505
           Email: Ovni@4dreamland.com
           Internet: http://4dreamland.com
           Phone: 818-843-1162
    A California State Registered Corporation

                 The World Will Know...





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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Gary Levy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 02:23:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:28:05 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 01:03:42 -0500

<snip>

>Let's see, in my remarks I asked two questions of you and you
>chose to _overlook_ them.  Then you _repeat_ the Stringfield
>quote.  Then you tell us that the very core of this thread,
>implying that Hynek and Larsen must have been using the cover of
>CUFOS to hide their subversive clandestine once in the agency
>always in the agency spy work, was not meant in any way to
>impugne the two men.  A truly fine example of _doublespeak_.  So
>let me _repeat_ my two questions to you.

>Tell us one specific example of how Hynek or Larsen piped
>privileged information to the agency or one specific example of
>how they damaged this quest on behalf of their agency.

>What is your purpose in promoting this prejudicial portrait of
>these men?  What truths do you hope to reveal, what gains do you
>hope to make?

>Please answer the _questions_.

First an aside:

Ted, now you have changed the questions, this is known as moving
the field goal while the ball is in play.  John Velez has
pointed out examples of this before on this list.

I would like to point out to some of those individuals who have
responded to my Hynek postings that "slander" is verbal, it's
"libel" that is written.  And I also might add that that proving
"harm" to the reputations of Hynek and Larsen might be a little
difficult to do, since they both were in fields where
association with the UFO was likely to harm them, not the
possible fact that they might be government agents!

The questions are:

Was J. Allen Hynek _primarily_ a UFO researcher/activist?
No. He was an astronomer.

Is his reputation within his _real_ career going to be harmed by
_anything_ anyone in the "UFO field" says about him?  I think
not.

In fact, with many, many scientists the thought that Dr. Hynek
was a domestic security guy would _raise_ his prestige!  This is
certainly the case I have found on sampling my friends in the
sciences and professions.

Folks, the UFO is a _fringe_ activity and the work Dr. Hynek did
there did NOT advance his career as an astronomer.  For 99.9
percent of Hynek's professional colleagues his UFO work was,
well, er, a joke.  Am I supposed to be upset because some, er,
_ufologists_ and their fellow travelers are going to think less
of Dr. Hynek?  No.  As Napoleon said at the end of his career,
"Now, I ask you, whose blood have I shed?  And, anyway, the
domestic security folks compensate their professional colleagues
very well, in their own ways!

more later...

Gary





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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 02:50:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:12:16 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 01:03:42 -0500

>>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 13:10:30 -0500
>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

>>>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>>>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 04:35:36 -0600

>Let's see, in my remarks I asked two questions of you and you
>chose to _overlook_ them.  Then you _repeat_ the Stringfield
>quote.  Then you tell us that the very core of this thread,
>implying that Hynek and Larsen must have been using the cover of
>CUFOS to hide their subversive clandestine once in the agency
>always in the agency spy work, was not meant in any way to
>impugne the two men.  A truly fine example of _doublespeak_.  So
>let me _repeat_ my two questions to you.

>Tell us one specific example of how Hynek or Larsen piped
>privileged information to the agency or one specific example of
>how they damaged this quest on behalf of their agency.

>What is your purpose in promoting this prejudicial portrait of
>these men?  What truths do you hope to reveal, what gains do you
>hope to make?

>Please answer the _questions_.

These were your original "two" questions:

I am trouble(d) by not knowing two things.

1) What specific subversive acts, in their post government
service part of life, are Hynek and Larsen supposed to have
committed and

2) in what detailed manner have they hurt the search for the
truth about UFOs?

3) And, what motivates Gary to take the known history of these
gentlemen and construct such a disparaging conjecture about
them?

I count three.

Then in this post there are:

4) Tell us one specific example of how Hynek or Larsen piped
privileged information to the agency or

5) one specific example of how they damaged this quest on behalf
of their agency.

That's a total of five different questions.

More in a separate post... bye but ponder this in the meantime.

If these men have contributed so much to the field then why did
the Sturrock Panel find that there had been no "scientific"
progress in the study of the UFO since the Condon Commission.

Gary





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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 02:34:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:35:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]
>Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 09:47:30 PST

>>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:53:29 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

<snip>

>In other words, no matter what abductees report, you can find --
>as we have already seen -- some corresponding stereotype which
>"confirms" your pre-existing supposition.  No matter what
>abductees say, they verify what you want to believe. In ordinary
>language, this is called a heads-I-win-tails- you-lose
>proposition.  In fancier language it is also  the very
>definition of an unfalsifiable hypothesis, without which, it
>seems, the pseudoscience of psychosocial ufology could not
>exist.


Nice summation, Jerry.  You gave him the opportunity in over 50
postings on this thread to come up with a falsifiable
hypothesis, and he hasn't yet supplied one.  Instead, you get
plenty of restatements as to what "he believes to be true".
Have you given any thought to taking over the "What's new at
Magonia" newsletter? Apparently you only have to write one issue
and then periodically remail it.

Bill Weber





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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 02:53:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:15:20 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

This is being reposted as it did not have the correct subject
heading when originally sent.  GA

>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 04:35:36 -0600

>>Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 06:22:10 -0500
>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


<The bulk of Ted's remarks snipped because if you don't  >
<remember them, you can find them in the Ufomind Archive.>


>To be more serious, I am trouble by not knowing two things.
>What specific subversive acts, in their post government service
>part of life, are Hynek and Larsen supposed to have committed
>and in what detailed manner have they hurt the search for the
>truth about UFOs? And, what motivates Gary to take the known
>history of these gentlemen and construct such a disparaging
>conjecture about them? >

Ted,

Let me address these serious, substantiative issues.

What harm has been done?

We all know that in the last fifty years this field has made
suprisingly little progress considering the obvious talent
of many participants.

Why should this be?

The answer is that it has been shot full of agents from the very
beginning.  That is, everywhere you turn you run into a veterans
of this other world, intelligence and counterintelligence, even
on this list.

I am not going to give away the rest of the answers to your
questions as I am writing a book on this very subject.

I will however note, that it is a tribute to the skill and
tenacity of this group of operatives that they continue to do
their jobs with almost no one in ufology being any the wiser.






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:23:55 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:21:27 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:28:31 EST
>Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:29:33 -0500
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>With regards to the so-called "Majestic Twelve Project:  1st
>Annual Report," here are two other anachronisms.

>Although the report mentions various Majestic-related studies,
>reports, and historical events dating through 1950 and 1951,
>thereby indicating this would have been written in 1951 or 1952,
>the cover page lists Panel member Gen. Hoyt Vandenberg as the
>"Vice Chief of Staff, United States Air Force."

>Vandenberg was the Vice Chief of Staff in the summer of 1947 at
>the time of the Roswell incident and the alleged formation of
>MJ-12 in Sept. 1947, but became Air Force Chief of Staff in the
>summer of 1948.  He _never_ would  have been referred to as the
>"Vice Chief of Staff" in 1951 or 52.  No way!

>This is a very glaring mistake that is impossible to ignore or
>rationalize away.  It speaks hoax regardless of anything else.

And back to the subject of the term "retro-virus" being used in
the document, after an afternoon at the local university
library:


Medline, the computer database on biomedical research that
searches journal articles back through 1965, shows the first
modern use of "retrovirus" in a 1976 paper.  Howard Temin, who
first elucidated the existence of retroviruses, has a review
article of what led to his discovery of retroviruses in
Scientific American, January 1972.  The key breakthrough was the
development of cell tissue cultures in the mid-1950s.


The Woods stated that a 1935 article in Science Magazine used
the term "retroactive virus."  I found no article which used
that particular term. Instead I found a speculative article
dated Nov. 8, 1935 by Robert G. Green titled "On the Nature of
Filterable Viruses."   His theory was that viruses arose as a
result of "retrograde evolution" from free-living cells.  He
also used the terms "retrograde process" and "retrograde
simplification."  But the term "retroactive" is not used.
Regardless, it is nothing more than a general theory of viral
origins, has nothing to do with the properties of a particular
group of viruses, and certainly has nothing to do with modern
usage of 'retrovirus'.

(Interestingly, in the process of checking this, I came across a
possible 1935 UFO report in Science Magazine from somebody who
worked at the Smithsonian in Washington.  He termed it an
"Unusual Sky Appearance" and ended with the plea, "I would
appreciate it if any of your readers suggest to me an
explanation." )

I found nothing to indicate that anybody suspected the existence
of the genetic mechanism of retroviruses back in 1951 or 1952,
much less used the term, even though several retroviruses had
already been discovered.  The most recent one found, in relation
to the date of the MJ-12 document, was the murine leukemia virus
reported by Ludwik Gross in 1951.  Gross in a 1944 Cancer
Research paper, also theorized that many cancers might be
transmitted by viruses.  He also knew of the existence of cancer
transmission across generations, and coined the still-used term
"vertical transmission."  However, he apparently was unaware
that viruses could integrate themselves into the genome and be
transmitted through the germ line to successive generations, as
is sometimes the case with retroviruses.  Instead, based on
experiments in mice, he thought cancers could be transmitted
through such things as mother's milk.

As of 1951 or 1952, the most that was seemingly known was that
some viruses such as the Rous Sarcoma virus, the murine leukemia
virus, and the chicken leukemia virus could cause cancers.  As
we now know from _later_ research, all these viruses happen to
be retroviruses.  Was there a suspicion back then by some that
maybe these cancer-inducing viruses were all related?  Maybe
(e.g. Gross), but I have as yet found no term used collectively
for such viruses, much less the term "retrovirus.

Like calling Gen. Vandenberg the Vice Chief of Staff, the term
"retrovirus in this circa 1951 "document" is clearly
anachronistic.  Unfortunately I have to conclude that the MJ-12
"1st Annual Report" is a hoax.






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                  Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:31:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:24:34 -0500
Subject: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:46:04 -0500 (EST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>>One thing I would like to ask the list....

>>>"When did the term 'Have a nice day' appear?"

>>1970's, I believe. Of course, people could have started saying
>>it in the '60s, but the widespread -- unavoidable -- cloying --
>>use of the phrase is typically '70s. (There's a wonderful
>>multivolume CD colleciton of 70s music called "Have A Nice
>>Day.")

>Yes, I think that was "a 70s type thing".  I just looked in my
>Shakespeare anthology and can confirm that the phrase "have a
>nice day" does not appear in any of his plays.

>Today my nieces and nephews all say "have a happy", and the
>slang at one point seemed to be moving toward "have a better
>one".

>Funny language, ain't it.  It never sits still for you to study.

Hmmm....have you checked a Bible concordance? Can't be too
careful....<g>






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                              Re: The Challenge

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:29:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:27:50 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 19:29:49 -0600 (CST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Challenge

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: The Challenge
>>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:20:24 -0500

>>Budd Hopkins has a test to see whether kids might have been
>>abducted. He has a set of cards, that depict famliar fiigures in
>>everyday life -- a policeman, a fireman, and others. Mixed in
>>with the familiar figures is a standard alien face. He asks kids
>>to look at the cards, and tell a story about each. Some kids,
>>apparently, move quickly over the alien card, having no reaction
>>to it. Others get frightened, fall silent, or tell stories. "I
>>don't like him! He comes into my room at night."


>This is the sort of exercise (much like the Roper Report itself)
>that could mean _something_ -- or absolutely nothing at all. But
>to call it "a test to see whether kids might have been abducted"
>is totally absurd. A perfect case of an extraordinary claim
>requiring extraordinary evidence, or, in this case, any
>compelling or corroborative evidence at all.

_Might_ have been abducted. Note the emphasis.

>One simply doesn't know what is being tested, or enough about
>the personal history of the experiencer to be able to draw such
>a conclusion, however tentative. Are we to assume, for example,
>that children are always hustled out of the room when a segment
>on aliens and/or abductions airs on "Unsolved Mysteries" or any
>number of other outlets? Are we to assume, in other words, that
>the tested children are totally ignorant of the alien face (save
>by personal experience) -- until same is presented to them by
>Hopkins, in which case any negative or fearful response to same
>must indicate that that child "might have been abducted"?

>My own seven-year-old is perfectly aware of the familiar gray
>visage, not just from having seen it on book covers around the
>house, but from any number of sources, from TV to the toy racks
>at Wal-Mart and elsewhere. How he would fare on Hopkins's "test"
>on any given day is anyone's guess. Has Hopkins had any children
>respond favorably to the alien face? Who knows? Has he had any
>children respond fearfully to a fireman or policeman, under the
>assumption that at least _some_ might have been inadvertently
>frightened by one at sometime? Who knows? Did the other
>portrayed figures universally display a smiley face? Who knows?
>Has Hopkins used other fictional characters in his test, say,
>Buzz Lightyear or a fearful character out of some Disney
>animated cartoon, say, "The Lion King," as control samples? Who
>knows? The general public at large certainly doesn't, nor, for
>that matter, does the UFO community. Presumably, the results of
>this significant test, along with Budd's studies of alien
>scripts, await publication in his next commercial book on the
>abduction phenomenon. (If, as we hear, Budd is indeed working
>with professionals, then those professionals should be
>interested enough to impose standard scientific protocols on his
>studies and be willing to submit the results of same for
>publication.)

There are plenty of potential problems with the test Budd uses.
Whether they deserve a rant this intense is another story. In
any case, it's not designed as proof that anyone was abducted.
And it's designed to elicit an emotional reaction, not a mere
statement of familiarity.

There's no doubt that the alien face is everywhere these days --
even on a box of sweet, juicy Alien Fruit Chews I bought a
couple of months ago. It also seems clear that some kids react
very strongly to the image, and say, with apparent fright or
distress, that it represents a being they believe to be real.
They do this on their own, without looking at any deck of cards.
That's why the cards were developed -- because kids were showing
the reaction anyway.

I'll repeat that the test wasn't meant to be proof that any kid
is being abducted, or that abductions are real. But it does
raise an interesting question, for anyone who'll agree that some
kids do show the reaction I've described. Kids are remarkably
good at distinguishing what's real to them and what isn't. You
coud, for instance, show kids pictures of the witch in the
Wizard of Oz, and maybe some of them would start crying because
she's so scary. But if you asked them if she was real, they'd
blink through their tears and say, "No, she's in a movie, but
she scares me."

By contrast, some kids, with or without the card test, say that
this alien image does represent a real being. Why do they do
that? Are there other cartoon figures they say are real? (Santa
Claus, maybe,
but he doesn't count, because kids' parents tell them he's real.)

>>Diane, I hope your very honest and deeply felt post helps people
>>understand what abductees go through.

>A noble sentiment, no doubt. But what, exactly, _is_ it that
>abductees are going through? If the accounts are taken
>literally, there is absolutely nothing you, I, the FBI, CIA, the
>collective United Nations, Hopkins, Jacobs, or anyone else can
>do about it, as should be demonstrably self-evident. Nothing,
>short of learning to whistle in the dark. Aliens who can beam
>people through walls with impunity are here and that's the end
>of it.

>If the experience _isn't_ literal, however, then there may be
>something that can be done about it, leading to a cessation of
>anxiety, and, arguably, the experience itself.

>Ugly choice for the non-abductees among us, isn't it? Everybody
>might think about that before they start offering abductees
>advice. Would you rather be right and wrong, vis-a-vis the
>potential mental health outcome, or wrong and right?

>Think about it.


I hope abductees on the list will post some answers.

For my part, Dennis, I'll just say that you don't spit about
this. Abductees demonstrably feel better when they accept their
abductions as real, and come to terms with them. Part of what
they come to understand is that they're still here, not
permanently harmed, and that -- even if abductions continue --
life goes on.

This shouldn't be controversial. It's plain to anyone who knows
abductees, and goes to abductee support group meetings. There's
even a case of it documented in the mainstream psychology
literature. I've mentioned this case here before, but I'll go
through it again. A hypnotherapist who does _not_ believe
abductions are real had a patient suffering from anxiety. The
patient said he was anxious because aliens were abducting him.
The therapist hypnotized the patient, and uncovered more details
of the alleged abductions. The therapist told the patient very
strongly that none of the abduction memories were real, but the
patient disagreed. The patient's anxiety decreased anyway, and
the patient thanked the therapist , while continuing to maintain
that the abductions were real. The therapist, somewhat baffled,
had to admit that the therapy was successful, even though he'd
originally thought the patient couldn't lose his anxiety until
he admitted that the abductions weren't really happening.

Thus, we learn even from an orthodox psychologist that accepting
abduction experiences and learning more about them can relieve
they anxiety they cause.

Why do abductees react this way? Partly because nobody has been
able to explain their reported experiences any other way. If,
Dennis, there were some treatment that made reported abduction
experiences stop, I'm sure abductees would flock to it. But
there isn't, and many abductees have had a very bad time with
conventional psychotherapy, because (and this has been discussed
here before, too) their therapists tend to tell them they're
crazy to believe their abductions might be real.

Whatever the abduction experience really is -- whether it's
physically real or not -- the only proven way to relieve the
anxiety it causes is to accept that it happens, and move on. (Of
course, if abductees, taken as a group, showed signs of
psychopathology, that might not be true. But they don't.)

Greg Sandow






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                                     Re:

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 04:07:59 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:42:40 -0500
Subject: Re:


>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:33:23 -0600 (CST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 18:45:00 -0800
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

<snip>


>Here you go again, implying (via implication, if nothing else)
>that what would become known as retroviruses more than half a
>century later was common knowledge as early 1911.

>When you first joined this thread I was elated. Here was a
>scientist, I thought, willing to lend us some scientific
>expertise. But that was then and this is now. Between
>anachronistic retroviruses and Rorshach interprtations of the
>Ramey message, you need to decide whether you're a scientist
>interested in the UFO phenomenon, or a believer of certain UFO
>shibboleths with a passing interest in what is dismissively
>referred to (by many ufologists) as mainstream science.

>It doesn't matter to me. I'm simply amazed that when scientists
>do join the field that they seem so willing to surrender the
>scientific techniques and principles that otherwise previously
>served them so well (Dr. Wood on the new MJ-12 papers being a
>perfect example of same), rather than insisting that they be
>strenuously applied to the newly adopted field of ufology.
>Oh, well, ufology is the perfect scientific discombobulator.

>What else can I say?

>Dennis



Dennis Stacy,

I was absolutely shocked to see the caustic criticism you posted
re Neil Morris on UFO UPDATES today. It must have been a bad
hair day for you! I had been told that you were a professional
and fair reporter. In my contacts with you that had been
confirmed. But your comments aimed at Neil were so unfair and
not founded in fact at all! You certainly are entitled to
challenge the findings of any researcher, but the mean spirited
comments you made were way out of line and I want you to know
that I resent them!

Let me give you some facts that may be helpful to you: When I
began the RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team) project last
May I posted a call on the web for volunteers with skills in
photo interpretation to join with Ron Regehr in pursuing an
in-depth Revisitation of Roswell, utilizing the Ramey office
photos of July 1947.

Neil Morris was the first person to answer that call. I looked
up Neil on the web and found that for more than 12 years he has
been a primary researcher in the Atomic and Molecular Physics
Group, Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of
Manchester in Manchester, England. Some of his group's research
areas include experimental quantum dynamics, millimetric wave
and infrared spectroscopy, and atomic and molecular deflection
experiments utilizing the first fully computer controlled and
optimized spectrometer. Neil is responsible for adapting and
maintaining all the computers and other technical equipment used
in the department.

During the past six months I have found Neil to be as dedicated
and professional as anyone I have ever been associated with,
either in the military or civilian world. I have conferred with
him on virtually a daily basis and even though he works overtime
nearly every day meeting the demands of his day job, he always
makes time for his RPIT chores. I know for a fact that Neil has
devoted most of his lunch hours to pouring over the mysterious
photos of the Roswell debris on his exotic equipment. Then many
nights he has gone practically sleepless to probe even further,
always trying to solve the 51-year-old Riddle of Roswell.

During these six months NOT ONCE has he ever even mentioned how
he might be eventually compensated or given credit for his
astounding discoveries. Yet he has produced more results than
all the other RPIT members combined!

It is true that I first asked him to take a close look at the
Ramey Message and see if he could read anything. He did this and
came up with a very tentative reading. This he posted
immediately on his web site and invited the whole world to grab
a Ramey photo and see what they could see. Then the other RPIT
members joined in and published their interpretations of the
message on their own web sites. These all are linked to my link
page at:

http://www.ufomind.com/people/j/johnsonj/

Neil's discoveries are displayed at:

http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/index.htm

Neil has remained as the most conservative and cautious RPIT
analyst, never making any definite claims for the words in the
Ramey message but taking the risk to post his read right out
there on the web. And, I understand, he has placed himself at
some risk even in his day job due to his willingness to be
associated with this kind of UFO research.

And yet you, Dennis, had the gall to charge Neil with: "Between
the anachronistic retroviruses and Rorshach (sic)
interpretations of the Ramey message, you need to decide whether
you're a scientist interested in the UFO phenomenon, or a
believer of certain UFO shibboleths with a passing interest in
what is dismissively referred to (by many UFOlogists) as
mainstream science." Your pitiful comments remind me of a gnat
trying to sting a wonderful race horse!

James Bond Johnson





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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 09:50:20 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:51:24 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:33:23 -0600 (CST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 18:45:00 -0800
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>All,

>What do go back quite a way?

>No one disputes the fact that the immune system and related
>factors were discussed prior to 1952. The question is whether or
>not anyone used the phrase "retrovirus," with its current
>meaning, then.

>Don't fog up the issue with more smoke and mirrors, not to
>mention irrevelant citations.

>>Retroviruses


<start grumpy mode>

Whooa!,down boy, down!......

I'm no medical student.

My healthcare expertise just about extends to the nearest bottle
of asprin! and I tend to go a nice shade of green at the sight
of blood, even more so if it's my own.

_But_ I was curious enough to go out and have a quick look at
what I could find regarding the subject and was highly
interested to find that the history of this type of virus went
back so far, as I _too_ had thought the term was a quite recent
introduction. I also thought that many members of this List
would also be in a similar position as myself knowledge-wise and
too would be interested in the information, after all, thats
what this List is all about isn't it, sharing information?

SO exactly _when_ did the term "retrovirus" come into use?.

Don't flame me ... tell me,

...cause I don't know and would like to.

<end grumpy mode>

I _still_ think the term is quite recent in usage so maybe
someone on this list with access to a medical papers database
going way back could do a search for the term (I've only access
to science and physics subjects)and see just how far back the
use crops up, or has someone got a good book on the history of
immunoligy/viroligy?.

As David Rudiak has turned up a few more historical ambiguities
in his recent posting, these "new" documents are looking
suspicious indeed. And as for the website they're on - Sheesh! -
free packet of joss sticks with every visit..... it's _very_
strange.

Dennis what are we arguing about? At the end of the day, we both
think the damn thing's fishy.

Neil.

-------------------------------------------------------

Neil Morris@Home.
Email:             Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk






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                     Re: D'Amato, Belgian Wave And MJ-12

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 05:40:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:53:24 -0500
Subject: Re: D'Amato, Belgian Wave And MJ-12


>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:23:17 +0100
>Subject: D'Amato, Belgian Wave And MJ-12

>Source: Belgian UFOCOM at

>http://www.finart.be/UfocomHq/usdamato.htm

>Staff member Thierry Wathelet wrote the article.

<snip>

>According to the persons who attended the meeting, D'Amato
>appeared to know very little about the "UFO" context, generally
>speaking. His data on Roswell seemed to be exactly those
>presented on TV and in the newspapers to the average US citizen.

The information contained in the above article is not new, and a
great deal of the data contained therein is somewhat dated.
Richard D'Amato (no relation to the recently defeated Senator)
was reported to be investigating several facets of this genre a
number of years ago, but I've not seen any recent mentions of
his name.

I made a half-hearted attempt to reach him in Washington, as his
number is clearly listed in the U.S. Senate Directory.
Unfortunately, I never actually made contact.  He was listed as
a U.S. Senate staffer, working for a Committee, but I haven't
tried to follow up since the change in Congress in 1994.

>From all that I've been able to determine, the phrase quoted
above may well be the bottom line regarding Mr. D'Amato.  No one
has indicated that he had any "inside" knowledge regarding the
phenomenon, although he apparently indicated that various
intelligence agencies were interested in what other agencies
knew.  I got the impression that most were concerned that they
were being left "out of the loop", when there was no solid
indication that any of the agencies was actually "in the loop".

If anyone is interested, I can see if Mr. D'Amato is still
listed on the Senate side and provide an address to write to.
Can't guarantee a response though. . . . .






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                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 02:51:46 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:58:14 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


Hi guys.

I work in a hi-tech job, but appreciate the simplicity of
some lo-tech things (beer bottle opener for one).

>Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 11:01:42 -0600 (CST)
>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction

>Tim

>>From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: How To Film An Abduction
>>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:49:53 -0600

<snip>

>>An extremely strong type of double-sided tape, possibly the type
>>used to secure carpeting to the floor, could be purchased in a
>>few square feet and secured to the ground on a proper location
>>to entrap an intruder (especially a feeble li'l grey). We've
>>dubbed this the "alien-paper" method.

>Won't work either - I gather from reports that the little guys
>are actually floating when they arrive. But maybe you could
>hang long strips of the stuff from the ceiling all around the
>bed. Heck, attach a few bells to those strips too - that would
>make a racket. Just watch it when you get up to go to the john


My suggestion (now don't tell anyone) is to hang an iron rod
inside a copper or other non-ferrous/non-magnetizable metal
pipe. 2 to 3 foot lengths should be about right. Use wire to
hang the rod inside the pipe, nicely centered so they don't
touch one another.

Hang the whole apparatus in your bedroom closet, way in back
where its out of the way and wind can't get at it.

When the UFO stops over your house, the strong magnetic waves
will make the thing clank and chime enough to wake you up. Being
so simple, the humanoids might not even notice it .. and
hopefully will make no attempt to defeat the device.

Yours truly

- Larry Hatch

PS: Put some other innocuous but similar things next to it, metal
broom handles or whatever, to sort of camouflage the gimmick.

Please tell me if this works.







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                          BWW Media Alert 19981207

From: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:19:17 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:04:11 -0500
Subject: BWW Media Alert 19981207


Bufo Calvin
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA  94596
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Website:
http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this
edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made
to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with
strangers before you e-mail them something.  If you forward this, please make
sure it is clear that you are forwarding it).

December 7, 1998

If you have recently asked for a change in status, I need to ask for your
patience.  I had a hard drive crash, and have not been able to update the
mailing list.  If you have asked to change address or unsubscribe, I would
appreciate a repeat message.  I can get to the earlier messages, but that
would speed things up.  Thank you.

TELEVISION

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL

Thursday, December 10, 9:30 PM, STRANGE BUT TRUE: PSYCHIC PETS AND UNEXPLAINED
LIGHTS (the lights are in England)
Friday, December 11, 1:30 AM, STRANGE BUT TRUE: PSYCHIC PETS AND UNEXPLAINED
LIGHTS (the lights are in England)
Sunday, December 13, 1:30 PM, STRANGE BUT TRUE: PSYCHIC PETS AND UNEXPLAINED
LIGHTS (the lights are in England)

PBS
(times, dates, and even content vary): SECRETS OF THE PSYCHICS (arch-skeptic
James "The Amazing" Randi provides his explanations for psychic surgery,
psychic hotlines, etc.)
___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly
redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by
e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com.  You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to
Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if
there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t
he week before.
_____________________________





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                 There Is Message Of Non-Human Intelligence

From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:32:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:10:29 -0500
Subject: There Is Message Of Non-Human Intelligence


Patricia Mason
UNUSUAL RESEARCH


My name is Vladimir Pakhomov. I am mathematician. I am happy to
announce, that I has found its and has read. This unbelievably,
but fact. On this has left several years of work.

I has decipherred the most ancient cryptogram in world. Can be this
palaeo-SETI.

The message is written on language mathematicians
(palaeo-mathematics). This language a mankind repeatedly forgot,
but it is always restored itself together with development of
civilizations. I name this "message of other intelligence".
Since nothing like we did not create, analogues no. Big part of
message is decoded. It contains varied given: drawings an
manlikes, bestial and birds (including extinct); the images of
starry sky; the numeric data of Earth and solar system;
construction universe; the information about date and reason of
worldwide flood and a great deal another.

This information is kept in legends about Noah's flood. Amongst
the got drawings there is image of flooded land. That this?
Atlantis, Mu, Lemuria? To understand the got results, I had to
study the mythology and to collect the rests  of ancient
knowledges.

There is in message and image Oannes with interesting technical
details. Its easy hear. 7000 years ago in Babylonian mythology,
there was a god, Ea (who later would be called Oannes by the
Greeks), who was a water god. He was depicted as having the
upper body of a man, and the lower body of a fish. Other
drawings remind drawings discovered in the Tiahuanaco (Bolivia,
South America).

Even knowing all this, we do not be able to create such message.
Beside us come short knowledges and powers of computers.

Believe, I know, that I speak. I work with computers more than
30 years already.

This create Non-human Intelligence, unknown civilization. The
genius of a lost world. This call to human intelligence.

If You want, I can acquaint You with some results. For this, I
shall send the letters with the enclosed images. You its see and
You its hear.

I while publish the article in newspapers, sometimes newspapers
write about my opening themselves. But short articles do not
enable to explain all, consecutively, from the very beginning.

The Crisis in Russia obstructs publishing the book. To break
through this information blockade, I was connected to the
Internet.

Report the address of organizations and persons, leading work in
this area of studies. Help me to leave on publishers of books,
journals and newspapers. Or advise other way. Possible organize
the debate?

Best Regards,

Excuse me for my English,

Vladimir Pakhomov

e-mail: domino@ntp.dubna.su


RUSSIA







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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:52:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:19:30 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:33:23 -0600 (CST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 18:45:00 -0800
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

<snip>

>When you first joined this thread I was elated. Here was a
>scientist, I thought, willing to lend us some scientific
>expertise. But that was then and this is now. Between
>anachronistic retroviruses and Rorshach interprtations of the
>Ramey message, you need to decide whether you're a scientist
>interested in the UFO phenomenon, or a believer of certain UFO
>shibboleths with a passing interest in what is dismissively
>referred to (by many ufologists) as mainstream science.

Dennis,

Just one or two questions, to enlighten me on your definition of
a scientist:

1. From your point of view, is a scientist still a scientist
when his study of the UFO phenomena leads him to think that UFOs
are neither natural phenomena nor human-made gizmos?

2. Can a debunker be a scientist?  Well, let me rephrase that:
can a non-virgin be a virgin?

>What else can I say?

A simple yes or no on each question we be welcome.

Serge Salvaille







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                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:50:47 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:22:35 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: How To Film An Abduction
>Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 17:12:07 PST

>>From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: How To Film An Abduction
>>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:49:53 -0600

>>You want low tek, how bout this one? ;)

>>An extremely strong type of double-sided tape, possibly the type
>>used to secure carpeting to the floor, could be purchased in a
>>few square feet and secured to the ground on a proper location
>>to entrap an intruder (especially a feeble li'l grey).  We've
>>dubbed this the "alien-paper" method.


>I prefer 'The Entire Floor Blanketed With Sprung Mouse/Rat
>Traps' method. This is bound to snare results ;-)


Hi Problems with that is I have no recall whatsoever of what
their feet look like, does anyone else?

And anyway my Doctor Martins, (pretty lowly earthly technology)
are resistant to acid, alkali plus god only knows what else. One
presumes they have developed their own brand of safety foot-
wear by now! (No joke intended).

I've tried video cameras myself, but sadly have never caught any
thing.... I doubt I ever will. But catching one in the act, red
(I should say grey) handed has got to be the only realistic end
to this nightmare.

Marc





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                Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...]

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:52:39 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:26:18 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...]


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer
>Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 18:59:55 PST

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:02:50 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer

>>>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer
>>>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 22:22:01 -0800

>>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>>Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer
>>>>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 03:58:17 EST

>>>>Oh, and BTW, tell me if you don't know the story about the
>>>>real Canal Street in NYC...

><snip>

>>And to add to that, you got the world's _best_ lime rickey for a
>>nickel.... God help me but I loved that place.  But, they then
>>paved paradise, and put up a world trade center for some slope
>>head to bomb.

>Jim & List,

>As much as I applaud your great good fortune in finding the
>treasure of a lifetime I must take exception to your use of the
>term 'slope head'. I find it a highly offensive, peurile,
>obnoxious, childish and unworthwhile-of-this-List term. I
>believe an apology to the List is in order . . . no wonder
>staying on this list is so arduous.

>Gesundt-hite Jim.

>Leanne  ];-)


Leanne, List and other entities,

I sent you an email directly, Leanne, indicating lack of
knowledge as to the derisiveness of the word "Slopehead!"
Apologies are in order.  As they are freely given, it is hoped
that they will be freely accepted.

First, my use of this term was quite innocent, and as a result,
did not refer to any particular person, race or thing.
Therefore the apology I make is for using a word, the meaning of
which I was unaware.  On that basis I am sorry.

If you have been following some of my mail, you should
understand that I harbor no prejudice.  I do not recognize or
appreciate the word, "diversity," as it's use alone, connotes
the existence of difference.  Since I do not recognize
differences among peoples, other than those which are
irrelevant, I abhor prejudice.

I have shrapnel in me that is likely older than you are, so
I should know better.  But I do not.

A friend of mine who listens in but rarely posts called me
within minutes of my asking you what the meaning of the
term was, to bring such a reaction.  He told me.

It is my hope and intent to make your experience on this
or any List to which I belong, more pleasant, not such a
chore as you opined I made it for you.


>I believe an apology to the List is in order... no wonder
>staying on this list is so arduous.

Hopefully you now feel better.   It was good for me, I hope it
was good for you.  (as he reaches for a cigarette).

Jim Mortellaro, crestfallen and in deep despair.  A bottle
of Dr. Gesundt's fresh wine should, however, change all that.






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 04:07:59 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:56:40 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:33:23 -0600 (CST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 18:45:00 -0800
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

<snip>


>Here you go again, implying (via implication, if nothing else)
>that what would become known as retroviruses more than half a
>century later was common knowledge as early 1911.

>When you first joined this thread I was elated. Here was a
>scientist, I thought, willing to lend us some scientific
>expertise. But that was then and this is now. Between
>anachronistic retroviruses and Rorshach interprtations of the
>Ramey message, you need to decide whether you're a scientist
>interested in the UFO phenomenon, or a believer of certain UFO
>shibboleths with a passing interest in what is dismissively
>referred to (by many ufologists) as mainstream science.

>It doesn't matter to me. I'm simply amazed that when scientists
>do join the field that they seem so willing to surrender the
>scientific techniques and principles that otherwise previously
>served them so well (Dr. Wood on the new MJ-12 papers being a
>perfect example of same), rather than insisting that they be
>strenuously applied to the newly adopted field of ufology.
>Oh, well, ufology is the perfect scientific discombobulator.

>What else can I say?

>Dennis



Dennis Stacy,

I was absolutely shocked to see the caustic criticism you posted
re Neil Morris on UFO UPDATES today. It must have been a bad
hair day for you! I had been told that you were a professional
and fair reporter. In my contacts with you that had been
confirmed. But your comments aimed at Neil were so unfair and
not founded in fact at all! You certainly are entitled to
challenge the findings of any researcher, but the mean spirited
comments you made were way out of line and I want you to know
that I resent them!

Let me give you some facts that may be helpful to you: When I
began the RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team) project last
May I posted a call on the web for volunteers with skills in
photo interpretation to join with Ron Regehr in pursuing an
in-depth Revisitation of Roswell, utilizing the Ramey office
photos of July 1947.

Neil Morris was the first person to answer that call. I looked
up Neil on the web and found that for more than 12 years he has
been a primary researcher in the Atomic and Molecular Physics
Group, Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of
Manchester in Manchester, England. Some of his group's research
areas include experimental quantum dynamics, millimetric wave
and infrared spectroscopy, and atomic and molecular deflection
experiments utilizing the first fully computer controlled and
optimized spectrometer. Neil is responsible for adapting and
maintaining all the computers and other technical equipment used
in the department.

During the past six months I have found Neil to be as dedicated
and professional as anyone I have ever been associated with,
either in the military or civilian world. I have conferred with
him on virtually a daily basis and even though he works overtime
nearly every day meeting the demands of his day job, he always
makes time for his RPIT chores. I know for a fact that Neil has
devoted most of his lunch hours to pouring over the mysterious
photos of the Roswell debris on his exotic equipment. Then many
nights he has gone practically sleepless to probe even further,
always trying to solve the 51-year-old Riddle of Roswell.

During these six months NOT ONCE has he ever even mentioned how
he might be eventually compensated or given credit for his
astounding discoveries. Yet he has produced more results than
all the other RPIT members combined!

It is true that I first asked him to take a close look at the
Ramey Message and see if he could read anything. He did this and
came up with a very tentative reading. This he posted
immediately on his web site and invited the whole world to grab
a Ramey photo and see what they could see. Then the other RPIT
members joined in and published their interpretations of the
message on their own web sites. These all are linked to my link
page at:

http://www.ufomind.com/people/j/johnsonj/

Neil's discoveries are displayed at:

http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/index.htm

Neil has remained as the most conservative and cautious RPIT
analyst, never making any definite claims for the words in the
Ramey message but taking the risk to post his read right out
there on the web. And, I understand, he has placed himself at
some risk even in his day job due to his willingness to be
associated with this kind of UFO research.

And yet you, Dennis, had the gall to charge Neil with: "Between
the anachronistic retroviruses and Rorshach (sic)
interpretations of the Ramey message, you need to decide whether
you're a scientist interested in the UFO phenomenon, or a
believer of certain UFO shibboleths with a passing interest in
what is dismissively referred to (by many UFOlogists) as
mainstream science." Your pitiful comments remind me of a gnat
trying to sting a wonderful race horse!

James Bond Johnson





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                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:19:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:15:43 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: How To Film An Abduction
>Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 17:12:07 PST

>>From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: How To Film An Abduction
>>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:49:53 -0600

>>>From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
>>>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: How To Film An Abduction
>>>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:04:18 -0500

>>Rick,

>>You want low tek, how bout this one? ;)

>>An extremely strong type of double-sided tape, possibly the type
>>used to secure carpeting to the floor, could be purchased in a
>>few square feet and secured to the ground on a proper location
>>to entrap an intruder (especially a feeble li'l grey).  We've
>>dubbed this the "alien-paper" method.

>><grin>

I can see it now; waking up in the morning to a dozen itty-bitty
gravity boots stuck in pairs all over the floor... :)

>Tim, Rick & List,

>I prefer 'The Entire Floor Blanketed With Sprung Mouse/Rat
>Traps' method. This is bound to snare results ;-)

This, captured on film, would be truly priceless! :)

>Apropo the camera: it should be encased in a Faraday cage to
>minimize EMF interference and closely wrapped in aluminium foil
>(the camera, not the cage) if the camera case is magnetic - if
>it isn't do it anyway. A cheap Faraday cage can be made from
>copper insect screening and don't forget to ground it.


Well Leanne, I figured the lead foil would do the job of the
Faraday cage as well as protect the film in the camera from any
low-level radiation that might occur ( could happen, I guess )
but it never occurred to me to ground it, that's important.
There should be an electrical box up in the attic that will do
nicely. The trigger's the trickiest part though. Perhaps you
could spare one of those mousetraps?

Cheers,
R.G.







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               Re: There Is Message Of Non-Human Intelligence

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 15:45:55 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:18:26 -0500
Subject: Re: There Is Message Of Non-Human Intelligence


>From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net>
>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:32:34 -0500
>Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:10:29 -0500
>Subject: There Is Message Of Non-Human Intelligence

Previously, Patricia relayed this post:

>My name is Vladimir Pakhomov. I am mathematician. I am happy to
>announce, that I has found its and has read. This unbelievably,
>but fact. On this has left several years of work.

>I has decipherred the most ancient cryptogram in world. Can be this
>palaeo-SETI.

>The message is written on language mathematicians
>(palaeo-mathematics). This language a mankind repeatedly forgot,
>but it is always restored itself together with development of
>civilizations. I name this "message of other intelligence".
>Since nothing like we did not create, analogues no. Big part of
>message is decoded. It contains varied given: drawings an
>manlikes, bestial and birds (including extinct); the images of
>starry sky; the numeric data of Earth and solar system;
>construction universe; the information about date and reason of
>worldwide flood and a great deal another.

<snip>

>Excuse me for my English,

>Vladimir Pakhomov

No problem, Vlad. But seriously, I hope you are better at
deciphering this forgotten language than you are at deciphering
English.

What you speak of sounds interesting. I'm not sure whether I'm
addressing Ms. Mason or Mr. Pakhomov, but it would certainly
help if he engaged the services a translator. Claims of this
nature are hard enough for mainstream science to take seriously
without the added handicap of unintentional humor that sometimes
results from odd sentence structures and unwise choices of
words.

I'm not being mean. Just preparing you for the worst....

Lucks for you, I wishes.

Evans, Roger





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                         Re: UFOs And The Real World

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 14:47:08 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:10:40 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs And The Real World


>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 00:45:34 -0500
>Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:29:21 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFOs And The Real World

Previously, Gary offered this (I'm assuming) regarding Hynek and
Larsen:

>Now, we can be smart, or we can be stupid.  We can put our head
>in the sands or we can wake up and look around.  We can take
>people at absolute face value in spite of their backgrounds and
>actions, or we can do some analysis and vetting.

You're absolutely correct, Gary. So, let's start with you....

First off, what background do you possess that gives more
credibility to the claims you keeping making regarding the
subversive nature of Hynek and Larsen?

Oh, yeah. I forgot. You aren't claiming that what they did was
subversive. You're merely implying that they were part of a
secret organization bent on distributing misinformation
regarding UFOs.

Oh. Wait. I got that wrong, too. They were part of the CIC,
which is NOT a secret organization because it's listed in the
encyclopedia. (Never mind that the CIA is listed also.)

OK. Now I got it. Hynek and Larsen were working for a NON-secret
organization that was bent on distributing misinformation
regarding UFOs.

And you know this because they told you about it, right?

Oh. Dad-gumit. I got that wrong, too. According to you, they
never told anyone, even their closest friends, what they did
regarding the "true nature" of their work.

OK. Give me a moment to regroup.....

Got it:

Hynek and Larsen were doing something secret, though you're not
sure what because they never told anyone, while working for an
agency that is NOT secret because it's listed the the
encyclopedia.

And the proof that all this is true is found.....where?

No offense, Gary. But most people would call this "guessing".

Others might even call it "propaganda".

Later,
Roger Evans





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                              Re: The Challenge

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:22:19 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:05:20 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Challenge
>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:29:56 -0500

>>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 19:29:49 -0600 (CST)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Challenge

>>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: The Challenge
>>>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:20:24 -0500



Greg, Denis, List

In 1948 there were no X-Files.  In 1948, we did not own a TV
set. In 1948 there was no Captain Video even.  And in 1948 I did
_not_ even believe in Santa Claus.  In 1948 I was barely four
years old.  I listened to radio.  Lum'nAbner, Sky King, Sargent
Preston, Gang Busters.  The scariest thing in my life was
"Lights Out!"

In 1948 I started believing in UFO's altho then, I was unaware
of what they were, as I was equally unaware of what those little
pasty bastards were.  I used to call them little monsters.  I
always thought they took me away in an ambulance to their
hospital in the sky.

I hadn't a clue what a hospital was, but I knew enough to
believe that is exactly where they took me.  What other place
would a kid go to be undressed, examine, probed and poked in
very private places?  And why is it that the very first time I
experienced the pleasure of ejaculation was in that hospital?
Was it a dream? If so, how is it that fifty years ago, never
having seen a picture of an alien, never having seen a picture
of a "saucer" and never having seen or heard anything about
people from outer space, never.... I came up with these images
all by myself?

Dennis.  I must tell you that your head is deeply buried in the
sand.   You have not a clue as to what it is you are talking
about.  Not a clue. My advise to you would be to do as Greg
suggested.  Go see and talk with and listen to, people who
allege the abduction experience.  It would shock you into a
sensibility that you obviously lack.

I mean no offense.  I _do_ mean to tell you, however, that I
mean every word without offense.  You just do not know what it
is you are talking about.  Isn't a doubt in my mind about that.
I abhor culpable ignorance.  You are getting close to that
Dennis... very close.  And while I honor your beliefs and intent
(which I assume to be honest and honorable), while I honor you
beliefs, I do not honor culpability.

The truth is out there somewhere.  Look and learn, Dennis.

Jim





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                         Further RPIT Images Posted

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 22:11:41 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 10:10:26 -0500
Subject: Further RPIT Images Posted


All,

I've this evening posted 2 more significant images to my RPIT
web pages.

The first clearly indicates a "2" styled symbol of intricate
design and with associated other symbols, these seen on debris
within the RameyDubose Fort Worth image.  This can be seen via
the URL:

http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/beam-idx.htm

It's at the bottom of the page.


The second is a clear shot of an intricatly fashioned intact
piece of metalic debris the like of which I've not come accross
before in this study, "the helmet" (as it reminds me of a
futuristic motor cycle helmet). Close by this is a facinating
piece of white "plastic" like material molded into a delicately
fluted "Y" shape. This image can be seen via the URL:

http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/misc-idx.htm

Again at the bottom of the page.

As with most of the images shown on the index pages a double
click on the image in the index page will take you to the full
sized image.

Neil.

-------------------------------------------------------

Neil Morris@Home.





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                         UFO Magazine [U.S.] Website

From: Don Ecker <decker@ufomag.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 14:37:46 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 10:16:37 -0500
Subject: UFO Magazine [U.S.] Website


December 8, 1998

As I promised several months ago when our old web site was taken
off line, I would announce our new web site when it was back up
and running. I am proud to announce that UFO Magazine's Web site
as of the evening of the 7th of December is back up and looking
good!

We wanted a new look and to add improvements that would make the
site a place really worth visiting and re-visiting and we are
happy with the results. But this is only the beginning with a
lot more to come. Give us a visit at;

http://www.ufomag.com/

Let us know how you like it and what YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE.

Happy Holidays to you all!

Don Ecker
UFO Magazine





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                Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...]

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:41:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 10:19:17 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...]


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:52:39 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer & Apologies...

<snip>

>I do not recognize or
>appreciate the word, "diversity," as it's use alone, connotes
>the existence of difference.  Since I do not recognize
>differences among peoples, other than those which are
>irrelevant, I abhor prejudice.

Dear Dr. Gesundt, two questions:

1. In your opinion, does not recognizing differences among
peoples, other than those which are irrelevant, make you
relevantly different from most of your contemporaries?






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                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:48:24 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 10:24:57 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: How To Film An Abduction
>Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 17:12:07 PST

>>From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: How To Film An Abduction
>>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:49:53 -0600

>>>From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
>>>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: How To Film An Abduction
>>>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:04:18 -0500

>>An extremely strong type of double-sided tape, possibly the type
>>used to secure carpeting to the floor, could be purchased in a
>>few square feet and secured to the ground on a proper location
>>to entrap an intruder (especially a feeble li'l grey).  We've
>>dubbed this the "alien-paper" method.

>><grin>

>I prefer 'The Entire Floor Blanketed With Sprung Mouse/Rat
>Traps' method. This is bound to snare results ;-)

>Apropo the camera: it should be encased in a Faraday cage to
>minimize EMF interference and closely wrapped in aluminium foil
>(the camera, not the cage) if the camera case is magnetic - if
>it isn't do it anyway. A cheap Faraday cage can be made from
>copper insect screening and don't forget to ground it.


Excuse me List:

I have but two questions:

1) Does that mean I don't have to wear my tinfoil hat?

2) Do I still have to listen to the voices in my head?





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                             Hoagland - Lie/Lie

From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 16:10:04 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 10:30:26 -0500
Subject: Hoagland - Lie/Lie


[Non-Subcriber Post]

Jeff Rense referred me to you.  This may be of some value for
you.

Subject:
                   Re: lie/lie


=======================


Re: Hoagland

Posting as of 12-8-1998
Title: 'smoking gun' for Arizona landing of UFO from Pegasi


LIE:

1. He states that the 'smoking gun' is a 'burst' of ELF
radiation on the night of 12-6-1998 in and around Phoenix AZ
connected to an unknown craft landing.


FACT:

1. ELF-Extreme Low Frequency-is the 30 mile triangle array in
the Black Duck , Minnesota area that is used exclusively for
communication with submarines by and for the U.S. Navy.  ELF has
no 'radiation'.  It is a encoded transmission carrying
information.  This is the frequency band that can penetrate long
distances under water.  It has no other purpose.  (ref: cmdr.
noel lynn hargrave, u..s navy/elf array command, st.paul/
mn./12-8-1998)


LIE:

2. Colored registration shown on graphic is allegedly a 'radar'
signature of ELF 'radiation' where 'unusual' activity regarding
a space ship landing has taken place.


FACT:

2. The colored registration shown on the graphic is an overlay
of spring weather phenomenon and stage 4 and 5 cumulonimbus
thunderhead cloud development complete with weather anomalies
and requisite 'tale hook'  at the northern end subsequent to
tornadic activity---with stated weather cell moving in a NNE
direction.  This overlay has been taken from some location in
the midwest and then overlaid on the map in question.
Therefore,  it depicts a weather system from another time and
locale,  and not ELF registration,  since there is no such
thing. (ref:  albert quinn/NOAA/12-8-1998)

3. 'Radar', as stated,  does not pick up ELF.  NORAD/Fence
database shows no 'gray' in far or near Earth space for the date
as listed.


CONCLUSION:

The gulf continues between government cover-up and Everyman due
to this type of behavior.

Warning: Should this continue, this gulf will widen considerably
in the time ahead.


Robert A.M. Stephens
Contractor,  NASA
Shuttle Documentation Program






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                              Re: The Challenge

From: Minna Laajala <hiekkape@saunalahti.fi>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 01:21:29 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:36:39 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Challenge
>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:29:56 -0500

>>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 19:29:49 -0600 (CST)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Challenge

>>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: The Challenge
>>>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:20:24 -0500


Hey folks!

At first, let me introduce myself. I`m a single-parent mother
from Finland.  I have two sons, aged 9 and 10 years. I`m very
interested in children`s role in abduction- cases, and will be
thinking frequently about how they are possibly linked to our
mind: is all made in there, or is something else also going on?

One of the biggest reasons I`m thinking these thoughts is
probably the same with many parents; I don`t like the idea of
someone teasing my sons without asking me. (= or even with
asking me a permission...) Still I`m worried, because it seems
these stories do go on living, even finnish ufo-research society
has heard moore and moore of them.

>>>Budd Hopkins has a test to see whether kids might have been
>>>abducted. He has a set of cards, that depict famliar fiigures in
>>>everyday life -- a policeman, a fireman, and others. Mixed in
>>>with the familiar figures is a standard alien face. He asks kids
>>>to look at the cards, and tell a story about each. Some kids,
>>>apparently, move quickly over the alien card, having no reaction
>>>to it. Others get frightened, fall silent, or tell stories. "I
>>>don't like him! He comes into my room at night."


I have noticed the same, in other words children`s way to scare
"E.T`s" pictures. I don`t think it`s a enough strong evidence
about being abducted. Even some adults do scare those pictures.
I could also think, that because I scare for airplanes, one must
have been dropped me in it, but this has not happened. I think
it`s quite dangerous to make such conclusions using children's
stories as evidence. Kids are fine, but their imaginaiton is
really rich, and I don`t myself trust so much about those
abduction-stories. On the other hand; why would a kid need so
much attention, that composes an exiting story about aliens
abducting him/her?

I think, that still at least my sons haven`t been abducted,
though they do have also said, that "Little men played with me
on the craft". I have heard about only one being in our bedroom;
a mysterious "bogey", who is huge, ugly, and scary. It`s not an
alien though. I have also been myself scared of bogeys in my
childhood. I still think these creatures are somehow made by our
fears, and because a kid scares so badly, he/she feels like
someone real and physical is closebuy. When adults will exam the
bedroom, no-one is found, but after they`ve gone back to the
living-room with a huge grin on their face, it`s there again.
And nobody belives you.


Regards from a new member from Finland, you can call me Al... he
he he, well, the real name is Minna.





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              Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Update 12-8-98

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:47:18 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:39:18 -0500
Subject: Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Update 12-8-98


Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Update
December 8, 1998


Main web Site:
www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310

1998 Updates:
www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1998

_____________________________


1998 SUMMARY REPORT NOW AVAILABLE

The Canadian crop circle 1998 Summary Report by
Paul Anderson is now available from CPR-Canada.
56 pages, spiral bound with 14 report summaries,
diagrams, photos and newsclippings.

$15.00, in Canadian funds, including postage.
Proceeds go to help support further research.

Please send cheques or money orders to:
Paul Anderson
Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC
V6J 1J4
Canada

____________________________


Web site updated December 8.

____________________________


For further information or correspondence, contact:

Paul Anderson

Director
CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA
Affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International
Main Web Site:  www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310
1998 Updates:  www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1998

Representative
BLT RESEARCH, INC.

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue, Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4
Tel / Fax:  604.731.8522
E-Mail:  psa@direct.ca







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                       Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec

From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 20:02:21 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:42:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec


>Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 19:45:08 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec
>From: Jenifer Migneault <westy@endirect.qc.ca>
>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>

>Hello and many many thanks to all of you who shared your
>experiences with me... Let me now tell you about what we saw..
>I'll try to keep it short!!

<snip>


Did anybody think to turn these folks onto the Pheonix photos.
They seem similar. Might be usuful for them to have a look for
themselves. I'd do it but I don't have the URL for the Tom King
site.

Don






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                   Pulsar Newsletter - Issue No. 2 Part 1

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:10:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 12:41:36 -0500
Subject: Pulsar Newsletter - Issue No. 2  Part 1


Pulsar Newsletter - Issue No. 2


Welcome to the second issue of the Pulsar newsletter.

CONTENTS
1. The 'Rendlesham forest' affair. Photographic evidence reaffirms
lighthouse was the source of UFO scares.

2. The 'Sturrock panel' report: Science versus the 'little green men'.

3. Latest 'secret government documents' hoax: what a tangled World
Wide Web we weave.

4. The Iridium satellites.

5. The 'Kecksburg' incident - update on recent developments.

6. Robert the Bruce, an unexplained UFO and portends of doom.

7. New material of interest on the World Wide Web.


----- >>>>> o o0o o <<<<< -----


1. The 'Rendlesham forest' affair. Photographic evidence reaffirms
lighthouse was the source of UFO scares.

Science writer Ian Ridpath recently paid a return visit to the
location of what was once considered to be the UK's strangest
'UFO' encounter.

Now demonstrably proven to have been a story which featured the
profound misidentification of nearby Orford Ness lighthouse, as
Ian originally suggested, the documentary evidence which
confirmed that fact and substantiated his deductions was
published earlier this year and remains on-line at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/

Specifically:

'Rendlesham Unravelled'
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/rendlshm.htm

'Resolving Rendlesham: New Insights and Past Claims Examined'
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/rend2.htm

Pulsar' Newsletter - Issue No. 1
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/newslet1.htm


Following his clandestine mission, Ian has kindly forwarded a
photograph he took on 11 October, "from the edge of the forest
near where Col. Halt apparently saw his flashing UFO".

The photograph can be seen at:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/3310/Ridpath1.jpg


Ian writes, "The field in the foreground is the one they crossed
while trying to approach the UFO"

"The farmhouse is evidently the one which Col. Halt thought was
on fire".

"If Col. Halt had been too far from the spot I was standing, the
lighthouse would not have been directly visible. I confirmed
this when I returned at night - the sweep of the beam was
visible above the trees on the horizon, but the direct flash
could seen only at or near the spot from which the photo was
taken".


This categorically confirms the point I highlighted in detail
within 'Resolving Rendlesham':

"Halt was asked about the assertion he had been deceived by the
Orford Ness lighthouse and replied:

'First, the lighthouse was visible the whole time. It was
readily apparent, and it was 30 to 40 degrees off to our right.
If you were standing in the forest where we stood, at the
supposed landing site or whatever you want to call it, you could
see the farmer's house directly in front of us. The lighthouse
was 30 to 35 degrees off to the right, and the object was close
to the farmer's house and moving from there to the left, through
the trees'.

Here, as never before, Halt provides specific details of the
perspective he believed to be accurate. When he states, 'If you
were standing in the forest where we stood, at the supposed
landing site or whatever you want to call it, you could see the
farmer's house directly in front of us', that's correct and the
Orford Ness lighthouse is in a direct line of sight, east,
towards the coast.

However, when he claims, 'The lighthouse was 30 to 35 degrees
off to the right.' that seems to be consequentially incorrect;
the Shipwash lightship was 'off to the right', the lighthouse
was straight ahead, where Halt observed the 'unidentified light'
to be.

His comment that 'the object was close to the farmer's house',
again places the light source in the line of sight to Orford
Ness lighthouse, whereas he believed the lighthouse to be much
further south".


A magnification of Ian's photograph, showing the lighthouse's
exact siting in relation to the farmhouse is also on-line at:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/3310/Ridpath2.jpg


As an unidentified whitish/yellow light and a 'flashing red
light' were key elements of the 'Rendlesham forest UFO', an
issue I wanted to clarify was why the beam from the lighthouse
might be perceived as whitish/yellow, with the rotating beacon
possibly appearing to be red.

An important consideration is that on the tape of Halt's 'live'
microcassette recording he states, "there is some type of
strange flashing red light ahead", only to be told by one of his
men, "Sir, it's yellow!" (or "There, it's yellow!).

As Ian has noted, you don't correct a commanding officer unless
you're sure of the facts.

The reason why a lighthouse beam may be perceived to be white,
yellow or a combination of both, seems to be straightforward, as
explained to me by Ken Trethewey of 'The Lighthouse Society of
Great Britain':

"'White' light is a mixture of all of the primary colours as you
know, but it is indeed the case that light from a typical
lighthouse tungsten filament bulb is slightly yellow".

"It's just like your light bulb at home. It looks white but if
you took a photograph using only the light from a domestic
tungsten filament light bulb, it would have a yellow colouration
when it was developed. That is why we need to use flash lights
which are carefully designed to have a balanced spectrum of
colour. All light sources have a slightly different balance of
spectral characteristics. The design of the optic fulfils two
purposes:

1. To gather as much light as possible from the light source (It
is said that it is too dark to read a book in the lantern when
the light is operating! This is because all the stray light is
gathered up and thrown outwards).

2. To disperse that light out from the lighthouse in focussed
beams that are intended to travel as far as possible across the
sea.

There should be no colouration from the glass at all. When light
is incident upon glass, three things happen, (a) it is
transmitted through the glass (b) it is reflected from the
incident surface (c) it is absorbed by the glass as it travels
through. A good design maximises (a). However, there is
inevitably some of (b) and (c) and the effects may well be
different for different wavelengths of the light. Thus it is
theoretically possible for glass to produce a change in the
colour of the light".

This seems to solve that particular query and I'm grateful to
Ken for his assistance.


Observations of a beacon as either red or yellow, perhaps both -
as seems to have been the situation when Col. Halt was
'corrected' - can be illustrated by the graphic image on the
'Lighthouses 'Round the World' web site, at:

http://worldlights.com/world/


Another example of why a lighthouse may be considered to have a
yellow/red beacon, can be seen in the following photograph:

http://www.nternet.net/lighthouse/00000127.html


The main point is that in the 'Rendlesham forest' case, the
Orford Ness lighthouse is proven beyond any dispute, from the
original witness statements, to have been sufficiently deceptive
that a beacon light was followed for some two miles before being
recognised as such. This was known all along, though never
revealed.

Ian Ridpath remarks, "The fundamental point is that the
lighthouse lines up with the farmhouse, just as Col. Halt
described for his flashing UFO".

Col. Halt's manifest misidentification of the lighthouse merely
adds to the reasons why 'Rendlesham' has little, if any,
remaining trustworthiness as evidence for nocturnal
extraterrestrial visitations.


In view of all that's become clear in this case during the past
12 months and preceding charges of a 'cover-up' by the Ministry
of Defence (MoD), it's hoped to have a reaction from Gaynor
South, the MoD's 'UFO' spokesperson, in the next newsletter.

Definitely in the next issue - Jenny Randles responds to
'Resolving Rendlesham'.


----- >>>>> o o0o o <<<<< -----


2. The 'Sturrock panel' report: Science versus the 'little green
men'.

A scientific discourse on evidence for the existence of ET life
was the 'Sturrock Panel' report, released on June 29, 1998 by
the Society for Scientific Exploration (SSE). The Stanford
University press release is archived at:

http://www.jse.com/PR_UFO_98.html


The full report, which continues to provoke controversy, is
entitled:

Physical Evidence Related to UFO Reports
The Proceedings of a Workshop Held at the Pocantico Conference
Center, Tarrytown, New York, September 29 - October 4, 1997

It can be seen on the SSE web site at:

http://www.jse.com/PR_UFO_98.html


The review panel was unique in consisting of several eminent
scientists with a multidiscipline in related subjects.

Chaired by Peter Andrew Sturrock, Professor, Physics, Stanford
University -

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/physics/Faculty/sturrock.peter.shtml

the panel members included:

Prof. Von Eshleman. Co-Director: Center for Radar Astronomy
Radar Astronomy, Radio Communications, and Space Science,
Stanford -

http://ee.stanford.edu/ee/faculty/Eshleman_Von.html

Dr. J. Randy Jokipii. Professor: Theoretical astrophysics; space
physics, University of Arizona -

http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/faculty/jokipii.html

Francois Louange. Managing Director: Fleximage Groupe Aerospatiale,
Paris -

http://www.fuzzy-com.fr/sun/part_ii_20.htm

Dr. H. Jay Melosh. Professor: Theoretical geophysics; planetary
surfaces, University of Arizona -
http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/faculty/melosh.html

and

Prof. Charles Tolbert. Professor and Associate Chair, astronomy,
University of Virginia -
http://www.astro.Virginia.EDU/people/faculty/crt/


According to the press release, the main observations from the
study were:

"1. The UFO problem is not a simple one, and it is unlikely that
there is any simple, universal answer.

2. Whenever there are unexplained observations, there is the
possibility that scientists will learn something new by studying
them.

3. Studies should concentrate on cases that include as much
independent physical evidence as possible.

4. Continuing contact between the UFO community and physical
scientists could be productive.

5. Institutional support for research in this area is desirable".


With the intent of clarifying some points and diverse
interpretations of the panel's conclusions, I wrote to Prof.
Sturrock and several of the panel members.

The news release states, "The study was initiated by Laurance S.
Rockefeller and supported financially by the LSR Fund" and Prof.
Sturrock explained, "Mr Rockefeller and I met to discuss the UFO
problem. I suggested that a workshop would be a small positive
step, and he agreed".

On the question of whether the panel's conclusions were
supported by all members, he confirmed:

"The Executive Summary was prepared by the Panel when it met in
executive session in November. The panel spent two days in
thrashing out its summary that was unanimous".

Asked how the panel members had been selected, Prof. Sturrock
clarified:

"They were selected by me".

"Some I knew, and others were recommended to me by scientists in
whom I had confidence.

I was looking for scientists who are open minded but tough
minded. I did not want anyone gullible, and none of them is
gullible".


Far from being gullible, some of the panel members are notably
sceptical.

Jim Papike, director of the Institute of Meteoritics at the
University of New Mexico, was involved with research into NASA's
claims for evidence of primitive life found in the 'Mars rock'
sample.

"We concluded in our paper that our measurements give no
evidence for
life", declared Papike and his colleagues. For further details see:

http://augustachronicle.com/headlines/080996/mars_doubts.html


The unanimity of the panel's summation was confirmed by Prof. Von
Eshleman, who told me:

"I do not know specifically why I was invited to join the panel
and act as co-chair of the scientific review panel, but I have
known Peter Sturrock as a fellow professor at Stanford
University for many years. I have had no previous sustained
exposure to his interest in ufos and his Journal of Scientific
Exploration, however. My own research involves the use of
planetary spacecraft to study the atmospheres of the other
planets of our solar system.

The news release heading fairly states the panel conclusions and
our findings were unanimously agreed upon".

"I expressed most of my personal conclusions in the form of
several appendices to the report".


Addressing the same questions, Francois Louange expanded:

"When Peter Sturrock chose the UFO investigators, he contacted
Jean-Jacques Velasco for obvious reasons. He asked him for names
of possible scientific contributors, and Velasco gave him the
names of the two Frenchmen of the scientific panel. As far as I
am concerned, I have collaborated with GEPAN and SEPRA for about
20 years, as their expert on two topics : analysis of photos and
design of surveillance/detection systems".

"The panel was composed of scientists , a majority of which were
rather new and clearly skeptical on the subject. It has been
Peter's merit to maintain the whole group together throughout
the many months we spent, and to reach statements that
constitute a common denominator for all participants. The cases
chosen by UFO specialists were not necessarily the best possible
ones (this could be a long debate...) but nobody could consider
that a reasonable proof of violation of laws of Physics or even
stranger explanations came out at Pocantico although enough
elements were there to raise some scientific interest.

The text as it was published was agreed upon by ALL
participants, so far as I am aware".


"I was a bit different from the majority of the scientific panel
in so far that I have spent many years trying to understand the
UFO problem and to set up official projects on this topic, in
particular at a European level. I was therefore not surprised at
all by the strangeness of presented information and my deep
conviction is that certain cases contain elements that do not
fit in the frame of conventional explanations".

"I can even tell you that the first discussions of the
scientific panel were so tense, due to the healthy skepticism of
most scientists, that I thought the whole thing was going to
collapse, with slammed doors...".


All correspondents were asked one specific question:

"The subject of 'UFOs' incorporates many absurd elements which
are detrimental to the topic being recognised as meriting
serious, scientific attention. Can that really, ever be
resolved?"

"Possibly, by focusing on physical evidence", said Prof.
Sturrock.

Prof. Von Eshleman considered there was a basis for some
optimism, replying, "The extremes of the UFO reports and the
adamant ridicule by much of the scientific community represent
(sic) irreconcilable stands. However, I believe that there is a
middle ground where it is possible to conclude something
sensible about the subject, and that this could possibly
represent progress".

On the question of ever resolving the matter, Francois Louange,
believed, "No, but this should not stop (sic) from working".

"My belief is that if things were at last taken care of in an
official civil environment (as it happens in France), most of
the 'noise' could be avoided. This applies in particular to the
search of testimonies, which proves far more exploitable through
official channels which the lunatics do not dare call, as
opposed to press and TV..."


In a subsequent discussion with Francois Louange, I asked if he
might definitively clarify the panel's thoughts, as the press
release summarises:

"Further analysis of the evidence presented to the panel is
unlikely to shed added light on the causes underlying the
reports, the scientists said. Most current UFO investigations
lack the level of rigor required by the scientific community,
despite the initiative and dedication of the investigators
involved. But new data, scientifically acquired and analyzed,
could yield useful information and advance our understanding of
the UFO problem, the panel said".

Did this mean the workshop had determined there was no value in
further studying the 'best' evidence they had been shown and
that the focus should only be on new data, "scientifically
acquired" per their recommendation?


Francois offered his views:

"The panel stated that no progress was to be expected from
further analysis of the cases presented in Pocantico, and I
share this point of view. It does not necessarily mean that ALL
pre-existing data are to be discarded : most of the panel's
members know very little or nothing about OTHER cases than those
presented there.

"The main point raised by the panel is that an active effort
should be undertaken in order to gather new physical evidence
through adequate instruments, even simple (wide angle cameras or
video-cameras,...). Faster reaction should be obtained thanks to
a dedicated structure, so as to collect fresh undistorted
testimonies and/or recordings. If you take the example of
Hessdalen, a significant effort has obviously been done, but
methods and operational procedures lack rigour and
professionalism: with a very limited effort, scientists could
implement the necessary complements in order to be in a position
to obtain exploitable data on lights, associated spectra,....

My personal conviction is that we have to proceed along with
priorities. If the means are given to work professionally, there
is still an interest in re-visiting several of the existing
cases and the related evidence, either on a case by case basis
(e.g. photographic documents), or from a statistical point of
view. But the choice (good or bad) of the cases presented in
Pocantico was such that effectively little would have to be
expected from new studies of those cases, of which many are
already pretty old".

My personal appreciation to the panel members who responded,
especially to Francois for such a detailed commentary.


In a later development, the perceived harmony and agreed
conclusions of the 'Sturrock panel' suddenly seemed to be at
odds with statements which Dr. Melosh was making.

Dr. Melosh had not responded to my original contact with the
panel members and the first indication that he may hold
alternative views was from an interview for the BBC World
Service radio program, 'A Question of Science', broadcast on 4
October, 1998.

Featuring opinions and comments from a number of scientists
including Dr. Richard Wiseman, Prof. John Durant and Dr. Susan
Blackmore, together with contributions from others, such as Jane
Watkins, editor of 'Fortean Times', the program debated the
'Sturrock Panel' report.

A transcript was published by a 'radio ham' in Croatia - the BBC
World Service broadcasts on shortwave to Europe - and this was
his report:

- BBC reporter Graham Easton presents a short review of the
Peter Sturrock statement from end of June, 1998. Peter stated
that science can find new things and it can learn from UFO
reports. The investigation of the panel was supported by Mr.
Rockefeller. World Wide media broadcast the news in June when
astronomer Peter Sturrock said that UFOs are serious thing.

- BBC plays a clip recorded in June where Peter says that we
must investigate the psychological part of UFO claims together
with physical evidence.

- After that BBC plays recorded interview with Dr. J. Melosh
from The Lunar and Planetary Laboratory in Arizona. He is a
meteor expert. He says that he was invited, along with others,
to the meeting where the panel presented the best evidence of
UFOs. But Melosh says that the panel wasn't independent because
they have connections with UFO community. He said that it was
clear that they are not clean.

- Graham speaks about Peter Sturrock again. He says that
Sturrock is President of The Society for Scientific Exploration.
Other members of panel are convinced in theories of remote
viewing, cold fusion, reincarnation and warp drive - they are
'Star Trek' scientists.

- But then BBC again plays recorded statement from Peter
Sturrock where he says that UFO phenomenon was ignored and
ridiculed in the past. He says that in the past, a few hundred
years ago, people were convinced that meteors - 'rocks from the
sky' and ball of lighting were a joke. But today we know that
they are real. So we could maybe learn something from UFOs in
the future although we don't know what that is for now.

- BBC plays continuation of the recorded interview with Dr.
Melosh. He says that the so called 'evidence' from scientific
panel is not so convincing and it is unscientific. There is no
hard evidence or fragments from UFOs which could change our
mind. Melosh states that he will not devote his time any more to
UFO subject. [End]


I asked the BBC World Service if either a recording or verbatim
transcript of the program were available. They replied that,
unfortunately, neither had been retained.

I also wrote to Dr Melosh asking if he would verify the report
and possible clarify his overall views before publication of
this newsletter. Despite an extensive interval to allow a reply,
none has been forthcoming.

More information about the BBC World Service, it's world-wide
radio
frequencies and 24 hour Real Audio broadcasts can be located at:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/

One account of the panel's findings, proclaimed the headline,
"No evidence of ET: Panel calls for more scientific UFO
research".

It read, "Sorry, X-filers. A panel of scientists has reviewed
the physical evidence associated with UFO reports for the first
time in nearly 30 years, and found nothing to convince them that
Earth is being visited by alien astronauts. Nor did the panel
find credible evidence that known natural laws are being
violated".

This was the opening summary of the 'Stanford On-Line Report',
written by David Salisbury, who also penned the June 29, 1998
Stanford University press release on behalf of the SSE.

The full 'Stanford On-Line Report' can be read at:

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/report/news/july1/ufostudy71.html


The 'American Reporter' voiced an opinion from within with the
scientifically grounded Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
(SETI) project:

"Seth Shostak, a spokesman for the Search for Extraterrestrial
Intelligence (SETI) Institute in Mountain View, Calif., which
operates the world's most sophisticated radio-wave listening
antenna but does not investigate UFO sightings, told the
American Reporter the report by the panel of scientists was
'like motherhood and apple pie. Who could be against research?'

Shostak said, however, he saw nothing in the report which could
be considered new evidence that would cause a rush by scientists
to get involved. 'Much of it is rehash,' said Shostak. 'I think
if there were something new, the scientific community would get
interested.'

'If there are aliens out there,' he said, 'chances are they will
be found by our listening to radio signals ... It is not as easy
to move around out there as the movies make it appear.'

As careful as the scientific panel was to offer a balanced
picture of its findings, there is a danger, Shostak said, that
it could encourage those 'people who think the government has
some little green men boxed up in some closet.'"

The full article can be seen at:

http://www.american-reporter.com/843/7.html


The dilemma which contemporary ufologists perhaps face is that
many of them do believe the US government is hiding little grey
aliens, whether dissected in pickle jars, suspended in
'floatation tanks' a la 'Independence Day' (which drew heavily
on current UFO lore), or alive n' kickin'.

Not only does the 'Roswell' doctrine still pervade, to many it
remains a foundation on which their perception of 'UFOs' and any
scientific methodology is built.

And is it also something of a dilemma to the Society for
Scientific Exploration.


Kent Jeffrey is an airline pilot who, like many others, was
seduced by the apparent credibility of evidence for a 'UFO'
crash at Roswell, maybe even 'alien bodies' and a diabolical
cover-up.

He was instrumental in establishing the 'Roswell Initiative' in
May 1994 and the resulting 'Roswell Declaration', a petition
calling for a release of all government information relating to
'Roswell'.

Kent then came to realise that when the existing evidence was
thoroughly examined, much of it was specious, bogus and
contradictory. In a landmark article, 'Roswell: Anatomy of a
Myth", he also set out what had become clear from historical
government documents, formerly classified:

"For me, the beginning of the end for the Roswell UFO case came
last spring, when I first saw one of a number of previously
classified military documents dealing with unidentified flying
objects. The 289-page document was released und er the Freedom
of Information Act (FOIA) in March 1996 in response to a FOIA
request by researcher William LaParl. It contained the minutes
of the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board Conference at the
Pentagon on March 17 and 18, 1948. Buried in the document was is
a very interesting statement by a Colonel Howard McCoy which
referred to a number of unpublished UFO reports. The last
sentence of McCoy's statement, however, is devastating to the
Roswell case.

[...]

'I can't even tell you how much we would give to have one of
those crash in an area so that we could recover whatever they
are'. [End]


He concluded, "In essence, the 1947 Roswell case has turned out
to be a red herring, diverting time and resources away from
research into the real UFO phenomenon. Despite overwhelming
facts to the contrary, there are those, however, who will fight
to keep the myth alive at all cost. Roswell is a sacred cow for
some, and a cash cow for others".

Kent's full article can be read at:

http://www.roswell.org/


The largest representative body of 'ufologists' in the US is the
Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) and Kent's article was published in
its entirety by the MUFON Journal.

As the contents were not exactly popular with many MUFON members
and, forbiddingly, the organisation's hierarchy, the outcry
against such 'sacrilege' was followed by the 'resignation' of
Dennis Stacy, the Journal's editor.

Dennis Stacy had long been regarded as a rational 'helm at the
wheel', in addition to being an exceptional editor and writer.
It was no surprise to some observers that there followed public
criticism of the Journal's subsequent decline.

One of the foremost 'rebuttals' to Kent Jeffrey's article came
not from the MUFON Journal, it appeared in the SSE's 'Journal of
Scientific Exploration' (JSE). As their press release announced:

"Stanford, CA, April 6, 1998 --- The 'Roswell Declaration' was
formulated in 1994 as a public petition to the government. After
summarizing the claim that an extraterrestrial craft crashed
near Roswell, New Mexico in 1947, it concludes by requesting
that the President issue an Executive Order declassifying any
government information that might exist concerning UFO's,
regardless of whether positive or negative on the topic. It also
requests a termination of any security oaths that might still be
prohibiting individuals from openly discussing information they,
or the government, might have.

One of the prime movers behind this initiative was Kent Jeffrey,
an airline pilot by profession. He worked with other key members
of the three primary UFO groups (Hynek Center for UFO Studies
[CUFOS], the Mutual UFO Network and the Fund for UFO Research)
to bring this about.

It was thus a surprise and a newsworthy event when Jeffrey
published an article in the MUFON Journal last year concluding
that his investigations no longer supported the claim of a
crashed saucer at Roswell.

With Jeffrey's approval and with the permission of MUFON, the
Journal of Scientific Exploration obtained permission to reprint
the article and to invite two experts in UFO studies to critique
it. The Jeffrey article and articles by Prof. Michael Swords,
Western Michigan University, and Dr. Robert Wood, a retired
research director for McDonnell Douglas, appear in the current
issue of the Journal (Vol.
12, No. 1, March).

[...]

Wood argues that Jeffrey fails to consider alternative
interpretations of the same facts.

'An example would be the interviews with three colonels retired
from the Air Force who all say that the Air Force did not have a
covert program. The author simply accepts this as fact without
seriously considering the possibilities that one of them lied or
that none of them knew about it'".

Presumably this suggestion of a retired Air Force Colonel lying,
reaffirms the SSE and the JSE were comfortable with the critique
of Kent's findings and scientific feasibility of a 'Roswell'
cover-up.


Dr Wood's involvement with 'Roswell' goes back many years, the
December 1994 issue of the Roswell Initiative's 'Roswell
Update', confirming:

"The founders of the Initiative proudly present support of a
very special kind. It is a letter of Robert Wood, Ph.D., which
was originally dedicated to all members of the Society for
Scientific Exploration (SSE). In this letter Dr. Wood encouraged
the members of the SSE to sign the Roswell-Declaration. The
letter now is part of the material which is distributed with the
Declaration. The SSE is an organization of more than 400 highly
qualified scientists.

Dr. Wood is physicist, member of the board of directors of the
SSE and recently retired from his occupation at McDonnell
Douglas Corporation".


In June 1994, the USAF released its comprehensive "Report of Air
Force Research Regarding the 'Roswell Incident'". The report can
be seen at:

http://www.af.mil/lib/roswell.html

As a result, many of those who previously believed the incident
may have involved a crashed ET spacecraft, came to accept that a
solid, factual case had been presented to conclude the
explanation was perfectly mundane and terrestrial.

Debris from the 1947 Top Secret 'Mogul' balloon project, seemed
to explain the cause of the wreckage found in either June or
July 1947 (the exact date is uncertain), by a local rancher.

When the tales of Glenn Dennis, local mortician and pivotal
claimant of 'alien bodies', were then found to be factually
challenged and untenable, even to his former supporters, a
significant barrier to the 'Mogul' explanation was removed.

It also demolished a central pillar of the 'Roswell enigma' and
when that fell, the premise that 'ET crashed here', especially
on top of the evidence which did support the Air Force's 'Mogul'
balloon rationale, was no longer sustainable to many
'ufologists' who, like Kent Jeffrey, saw the perspective change
as the picture became clearer.


Prof. Michael Swords, who was invited to offer the
aforementioned critique, was also one of the 'UFO investigators'
asked to present evidence before the 'Sturrock panel'. He is a
senior figure within the Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS) and
CUFOS proudly announce on their web site:

Several scientists associated with the Center for UFO Studies
participated in the meeting. Dr. Mark Rodeghier, CUFOS
scientific director, and Dr. Michael Swords, former editor of
the Journal of UFO Studies, presented data to the panel. Dr.
Richard Haines, CUFOS Scientific Board member, also presented
UFO evidence to the panel. In addition, Dr. David Pritchard from
MIT, and also a Scientific Board member, acted as a moderator at
the workshop. This strong representation of CUFOS at the meeting
underscores the leading role played by CUFOS in scientific
investigation of the UFO phenomenon.

Further details can be found at:

http://www.cufos.org/currentevents_sturrock.html


CUFOS are entitled to be pleased that these senior figures were
judged to have related experience and doubtless also seen to
represent the more 'scientific' edge of 'ufology', irrespective
of whether that judgement was made by CUFOS themselves, Prof.
Sturrock, or whomever.

Nevertheless, CUFOS publish the 'International UFO Reporter'
(IUR), which frequently headlines leading articles continuing to
be supportive of the claim that 'Roswell' involved the sinister
'cover up' of something far more incredible than an itinerant
Mogul balloon.

As Dennis Stacy recently commented to Jerome Clark, the IUR's
editor, in response to Clark's statement that Roswell is best
left to "benign neglect":

"Benign neglect begins at home. But the last issue of IUR that
I'm aware of (Summer, 1998) not only has Roswell on the cover
(again), but devotes the first two articles of the issue to the
subject, a total of nine pages (cover included) out of a 32-page
issue.

The previous issue (Winter, 97-98) featured another lead article
on Roswell, this one running to five pages.

The issue before that (Fall, 1997) again had Roswell on the
cover and two articles inside running to another nine pages.

None of these recent articles were the least bit critical of
Roswell so far as I could ascertain -- indeed, the opposite --
so where is the stalemate as far as IUR is concerned?".


It is of course the prerogative of CUFOS or anyone to view
'Roswell' as worthy of continuing positive appraisal as the
possible, if not probable, crash of an ET vehicle, replete with
crew.

This does however carry an inference that the US government, at
least, has kept this a secret for 50 years.

Given the above noted focus and sustained confidence in
'Roswell', it might have been anticipated that the CUFOS
representatives would select Roswell as one of the 'best cases'
to set before the 'Sturrock panel', if not the most convincing
'UFO' case of all time.

Furthermore, the SSE would surely be at ease with the 'Sturrock
panel' deliberating a case they had effectively supported in
their own scientific Journal.

Yet, 'Roswell' wasn't chosen at all.

Perhaps there was that concern about being seen to encourage
"people who think the government has some little green men boxed
up in some closet".

If, however, the people representing 'ufology' are the same ones
who champion the 'little grey people' cause in the first place
and the SSE are evidently not adverse to the possibility either,
how is this juxtaposition reconciled?


----- >>>>> o o0o o <<<<< -----







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 9

                   Pulsar Newsletter - Issue No. 2 Part 2

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:19:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 13:54:17 -0500
Subject: Pulsar Newsletter - Issue No. 2  Part 2


Continuation... part 2 of 2.


3. Latest 'secret government documents' hoax: what a tangled
World Wide Web we weave.

An offshoot of 'Roswell' and now ingrained within that story are
the 'MJ-12 documents'.

Supposedly official government papers and claimed to have been
mailed anonymously to UFO researchers, the original 'documents'
told of an organisation called 'Majestic-12', or MJ-12, a 'round
table' of political, military and scientific leaders who formed
a secret government in 1947. Their duty was to protect the
'terrible truth' about an alien craft and bodies being recovered
near Roswell, in the New Mexico desert.

It's known that the suggested release of bogus documents along
these lines was spoken about within the 'UFO community', just
before the MJ-12 material first surfaced.

Devoid of any provenance, the original MJ-12 documents are
accepted, with naturally some exceptions, to be a transparently
blatant hoax.

However, they proved to be a catalyst for the emergence of
similar 'secret government MJ-12 documents', such as the
'Special Operations Manual' or 'SOM-1', referenced in the first
issue of this newsletter and comprehensively shown to be
fraudulent. See:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/newslet1.htm


It should go without saying that if 'MJ-12' is an imaginative
fabrication from the beginning, then all of the subsequent
'MJ-12' etc. documents can be dismissed out of hand.

It's often the situation, however, that a quite simple hoax can
prove to be more spectacular than ever envisioned, or intended,
and inspires imitations.


On November 30, 1998, the following 'Press Release' was issued
by 'The International Space Sciences Organization':

"Stunning Top Secret Military Documents Published On Internet
Revealing Recovery Of Extraterrestrial Vehicles And Bodies
During Truman Administration.

Documents have been released as part of a larger book titled
'The Truth', available at www.TheWordIsTruth.org, placing the
events in context and providing summary of two-year
authentication effort.

SANTA CLARA, CA - November 30, 1998 - Stunning top secret
documents were released today dramatically expanding upon
previously leaked materials concerning the recovery of
extraterrestrial spacecraft and occupants in 1947. As a public
service, the materials can be downloaded at no cost at
www.TheWordIsTruth.org.

'The information contained in these documents is astounding,'
said Joseph P. Firmage, editor and co-author of the book, and
the founder and chairman of the International Space Sciences
Organization, its sponsor. Mr. Firmage is a prominent technology
executive in Silicon Valley, California.

Clear copies of the documents are being forwarded to major U.S.
news media organizations during the week of November 30, 1998.

Following a two-year authentication effort that continues today,
experts in the field have concluded that the bulk of the
documentation is genuine. 'It is now absolutely clear that one
or more crashed vehicles were recovered by the military of the
United States Government in 1947. It is certain that these
vehicles were not manufactured by any contemporaneous
government. Scientists and the media who reject this claim,
particularly in the face of this most recent evidence, are
ignoring the single most important event to confront humanity in
perhaps 2,000 years,' added Firmage. The document authentication
effort is being led by Dr. Robert M. Wood, Ph.D., a respected
physicist and former senior engineering manager for McDonnell
Douglas".


The "stunning top secret documents" are in fact primarily a
collection of those self-same and familiar 'secret MJ-12
documents'.

The documents, in Adobe .pdf format, can be found at:

http://www.thewordistruth.org/narr_article.cfm?id=765


One exception is an apparent new addition to the stable, a
lengthy narrative entitled '1st Annual Report from MJ12'.

Although someone has put a lot of work into it, the typewriter
characters are often illegible, typed over, or joined together
and the incorrect grammar, alternating 'slick' or trite phrasing
and amateurish spelling mistakes galore are perhaps indicative
that this material was created by less mature hoaxers than other
attempts.

Amongst the obvious proofing errors is the claim that, "the
sightings and recovered objects are interpalnetary in nature".

We would hope that the combined talents of America's top echelon
might be able to spell 'interplanetary' correctly, or at least
be able to afford a typist who wasn't evidently so frequently
dyslexic.

Who will save the world indeed.


Even in the short sentence; "If such a crisis should occurr-in
government failure to defend and assure the public's trust, it
is the belief of the Joint Chiefs, that the following would
insue...", the words "occurr" and "insue" should be spelled
"occur" and "ensue" respectively.

Other glaring errors at first glance include:

finicial - should be financial over-all - should be overall
accellerated - should be accelerated reserach - should be
research eminent - should be imminent recend - should be rescind
caliber - should be calibre inter-active - should be interactive
colasped - should be collapsed vectered - should be vectored
celestrial - should be celestial

and so on...


Taking as a final example the statement, "It is advisable to
maintain some form of direct communication with a hostile enemy
before taking false assumptions of his response if falty data
wrongly indicates such".

Correcting 'taking' to 'making' and 'falty' to 'faulty', it's
still appalling grammar (and strives to make a point we might
presuppose was already common sense).

A further observation on the likely authenticity of this
'report' is that occasionally the content and security markings
are (almost) 'blacked out', giving the appearance of an official
document released under the Freedom of Information Act, which
obviously it's not.

More than this, the most striking evidence of a bogus document -
and not a proficient one - comes from factual errors in the main
text and the 'annexes' which detail some well known 'UFO' cases
prior to 1952.

I'll 'let sleeping dogs lie' though, as pointing out all the
flaws may only lead to them being corrected in future hoaxes.


Postscript: Just prior to publication of this newsletter, I note
that some of the apparent factual errors are being exposed. See
for example:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/dec/m03-037.shtml
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/dec/m08-005.shtml


Neither Joseph P. Firmage, nor the 'International Space Sciences
Organization' (ISSO), were known to me and brief some research
indicates that Mr. Firmage is certainly "a prominent technology
executive", as claimed.

He is the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of USWeb Corp, a
major player in the Internet market place, with some 32 offices
world-wide and a number of 'blue chip' clients.

Known less formally as 'Joe", Firmage is cited amongst "Eight
Who Made
a Difference in 1997", on the Internetworld site at:

http://www.internetworld.com/print/1997/12/15/news/19971215-eight.html


He is also suggested as one of the 'Global Leaders for Tomorrow'
on the 'World Economic Forum' web site at:

http://www.weforum.org/Communities/members_and_constituents/GLT/lis
t/ef.asp

(enter the URL as one line)


A further profile, with accompanying photograph, can be found
at:

http://www.detroit.usweb.com/overview/firmage.html


Terry Blanton also noted that the Internet domain name
'theworldistruth.org' is registered to the USWeb Corporation and
this seems a conclusive tie-in.


Perhaps the greatest irony is that the 'International Space
Sciences Organization' perpetuate an accusation which originated
in the inaugural 'MJ-12' document.

The ISSO press release further claims, "Dr. Vannevar Bush became
Chairman of an operation called MAJESTIC TWELVE, charged with
managing the recovery and ongoing analysis of the [alien]
materials".

Joe Firmage, as CEO of a multinational company whose business is
the World Wide Web, may appreciate that the development of the
'web' grew from the concept of 'hypertext' links between stored
information.

The person credited as being the father of hypertext is..... Dr.
Vannevar Bush [March 11, 1890 - June 28, 1974].


Bush was a brilliant scientist and visionary, who received the
National Medal of Science from President Lyndon B. Johnson, on
January 13, 1964.

The National Science Foundation's 'Vannevar Bush Award' is given
to "a person who, through public service activities in science
and technology, has made an outstanding contribution toward the
welfare of the nation and humankind".


Dr Bush's first public dissertation of his vision for the future
was entitled, 'As We May Think', published by The Atlantic
Monthly in July 1945. This is a short extract:

"Consider a future device for individual use, which is a sort of
mechanized private file and library. It needs a name, and to
coin one at random, "memex" will do. A memex is a device in
which an individual stores all his books, records, and
communications, and which is mechanized so that it may be
consulted with exceeding speed and flexibility. It is an
enlarged intimate supplement to his memory.

It consists of a desk, and while it can presumably be operated
from a distance, it is primarily the piece of furniture at which
he works. On the top are slanting translucent screens, on which
material can be projected for convenient reading. There is a
keyboard, and sets of buttons and levers".

[...]

"When the user is building a trail, he names it, inserts the
name in his code book, and taps it out on his keyboard".

"When numerous items have been thus joined together to form a
trail, they can be reviewed in turn, rapidly or slowly, by
deflecting a lever like that used for turning the pages of a
book. It is exactly as though the physical items had been
gathered together to form a new book. It is more than this, for
any item can be joined into numerous trails".

The entire article which ensured his place in the history of the
'Net, can be read at:

http://www.ps.uni-sb.de/~duchier/pub/vbush/vbush.shtml


In 1965, Ted Nelson coined the word "hypertext", in 1967 Andy
van Dam and others build the Hypertext Editing System and in
1968, Doug Engelbart demonstrated 'NLS', a hypertext system.

Later, in 1987, Apple Computers introduced HyperCard, the first
widely available personal hypermedia authoring system,
subsequently resulting in Tim Berners-Lee's 1989 outline for the
'World-Wide Web' project.


On 24 May, 1962, the aforementioned Doug Engelbart wrote to Dr.
Bush, then Professor Emeritus at Massachusetts Institute of
Technology and said of Bush's 1945 paper:

"I re-discovered your article about three years ago, and was
rather startled to realize how much I had aligned my sights
along the vector you had described. I wouldn't be surprised at
all if the reading of this article sixteen and a half years ago
hadn't had a real influence upon the course of my thoughts and
actions".

In the early 1960's, Doug Engelbart conceived the concept of a
computer mouse as an input device.

Co-incidentally, he was working at the Stanford Research
Institute.


I'm certain Stanford, Professor Sturrock and majority of the SSE
will agree that it's regrettable to see the late Dr Bush
maligned.

That however is the nature of 'Roswell' - it's either evidence
of a grandiose, depraved conspiracy, or, as many 'ufologists'
now concur, a case which, whilst it once held some puzzling
aspects, has long ceased to be anything other than a 'ball and
chain' to any prospect of 'ufology' ever attaining scientific
credibility.

It may be an 'ology', but is it science...


Dr. Bush would I'm sure be delighted to see his vision of the
'memex' in its current incarnation, even though sometimes the
content might not be what he envisaged. If not a little
bewildered, I trust he would
be suitably amused.


----- >>>>> o o0o o <<<<< -----


4. The Iridium satellites.

During 1998, Iridium LLC established a global digital wireless
communications network, combining 66 low-earth-orbit satellites
with land-based wireless systems to provide a world-wide
communications system for handheld telephones and pagers.

Although the namesake element has 77 electrons, not 66, the
Iridium network was originally planned to have 77 active
satellites.

More details can be found on their web site at:

http://www.iridium.com/


A by-product of the Iridium grid has been providing a
constellation of satellites which are providing dramatic
reflective flares/glints to ground observers.

Normally having a brightness of +6 magnitude, some of the
satellites can produce reflective flares/glints of up to
magnitude (-)8.

This may be up to 30 times brighter than Venus and the
reflection can be visible for anything between 4 to 20 seconds.

For detailed information see:

http://www.satellite.eu.org/sat/vsohp/iridium.html

Where it's recorded:

"The three sided (similar to an equilateral triangle) satellites
are not very large, approximately 4 meters long and less than
one meter in width".

"The mechanism providing the flare/glint appears to be the Main
Mission Antenna (MMA)on each of the satellites. These antennae
(of which there are three- 120 degrees apart, 188 cm wide x 86
cm long x 4 cm thick each) are highly reflective aluminum flat
plates (treated with silver-coated teflon for thermal control)
that are angled 40 degrees away from the axis of the body of the
satellite. The axis of the satellite body is maintained vertical
to the Earth's surface. On each plate are 106 electronic
radiation elements.

The plate or MMA can provide a direct (specular) reflection of
the sun's disk. This specular reflection is only tens of
kilometers wide at the Earth's surface. In order to see a very
bright reflection, the observer must be within this relatively
small area. Prediction programs are available to determine this
area".


See also:

1. The German Space Operations Centre (GSOC), which is part of
the German Aerospace Centre (DLR) and "maintains a set of
dynamic Web pages which generate visibility predictions for
visible satellites and Iridium flares for ANY location on the
Earth", at:

http://www.gsoc.dlr.de/satvis/


2. Lloyd's satellite constellations:

http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/constellations/iridium.html


3. "A spectacular photograph of a -5 magnitude Iridium satellite
flare from 'Iridium 37' at Lake Superior, near Marquette, MI":

http://www.portup.com/~bhalbroo/iridium.htm


4. On-line video of Iridium observations by Uwe Reimann:

http://members.aol.com/uwereimann/overview.htm


----- >>>>> o o0o o <<<<< -----


5. The 'Kecksburg' incident - update on recent developments.

One of the most enduring 'UFO' mysteries remains the 'Kecksburg'
incident, when during the late afternoon of 9 December, 1965,
many observers witnessed what may have been a meteorite or space
debris burning up in the atmosphere over Lake Erie and other
locations to the north.

Subsequent accounts told of an acorn-shaped object which had
apparently crashed in woodland close to Kecksburg, Pennsylvania
(PA).

Stories of covert military operations to remove the fallen
object and other tales have failed to provide any substantive
evidence of what truly occurred.


A prime candidate for the debris was Cosmos 96 (Kosmos 96), a
satellite reportedly based on the modified Soyuz spacecraft,
whose design was based on the diving bell.

Launched on 23 November, 1965, from a remote location inside the
former Soviet Union, the mission proved to be abortive and the
satellite's orbit decayed, resulting in the vehicle re-entering
Earth's atmosphere on December 9, 1965.

Further evidence that this was a likely explanation came from
witness descriptions of the object which had been seen in the
woods near Kecksburg. Described as having 'strange
hieroglyphics' on an elliptical 'ribbon' which protruded, this
closely resembled a photograph of the acorn-shaped Cosmos 96
satellite, which had Russian Cyrillic characters etched into a
'bumper' encircling the intended space probe.


Information on the Cosmos 96 mission was difficult to locate,
however, the National Space Science Data Center's Master Catalog
recorded:

"This mission was intended as a Venus lander, presumably similar
in design to the Venera 3 spacecraft which had launched a week
earlier. The spacecraft attained, but could not leave, Earth
orbit and was designated Cosmos 96.

Beginning in 1962, the name Cosmos was given to Soviet
spacecraft which remained in Earth orbit, regardless of whether
that was their intended final destination. The designation of
this mission as an intended planetary probe is based on evidence
from Soviet and non-Soviet sources and historical documents".

I wrote to Dr. David Williams, the mission's contact at the
National Space Science Data Center and asked if he might be able
to shed any further light on a possible connection with the
Kecksburg events.

Dr. Willliams was most helpful and replied, "Unfortunately we
don't have much information on the Cosmos 96 mission here at the
data center, but I have at least something I can add to our
record...

According to the 'Handbook of Soviet Lunar and Planetary
Exploration' by N.L. Johnson, the Cosmos 96 may have exploded
during an orbital restart into 8 large pieces which entered the
atmosphere around December 9. There is apparently information on
this in Science News of 22 July 1967 and 'Soviet Space
Exploration, the first decade' by W. Shelton (1968, p. 231)".


Further discussions with the knowledgeable Joel Carpenter and
others who have kindly offered their expertise has resulted in
more questions than answers about the Cosmos 96 satellite's
design and whether it was acorn-shaped.

One photograph which seems to prove it was, can be seen on my
web site
at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/cosmos96.jpg

Whether this is correct remains under investigation.


Dr Williams recently added:

"I still haven't found much on Cosmos 96, even after contacting
the U.S. Space Command, but I've put a mention of the Kecksburg
incident in the record at:

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/database/www-nmc?65-094A

'This mission was intended as a Venus lander, presumably similar
in design to the Venera 3 which had launched a week earlier. The
spacecraft attained Earth orbit and the main rocket body
(65-094B) separated from the orbiting launch platform. It is
believed an explosion (perhaps during ignition for insertion of
the spacecraft into a Venus transfer orbit) damaged the
platform, resulting in at least six additional fragments
(designated 65-094C - H). The damaged spacecraft remained in
orbit for 16 days and reentered the Earth's atmosphere on 9
December 1965.

- The Kecksburg Incident -

There is some speculation that the reentry of the Cosmos
96/Venera-type spacecraft was responsible for a fireball which
was seen over southwestern Ontario, Canada and nine states from
Michigan to New York and purported to have subsequently landed
in Pennsylvania southeast of Pittsburgh near the town of
Kecksburg (40.2 N, 79.5 W) on 9 December 1965 at 4:46 p.m. EST
local time (21:46 UT). Uncertainties in the orbital information
and reentry coordinates and time make it difficult to determine
if this could have been the Cosmos 96 spacecraft".


Jim Oberg is a renowned writer on space science and expert on
the Russian space program. Familiar with this story, Jim has
also been helpful in discussing the probabilities and offered
the opinion:

"The Soyuz-1 impact was at about 300-400 mph but the most damage
was the explosion of the soft-landing engine post-impact. A
Kosmos-96 type vehicle would have impacted somewhat slower
because it would have been smaller.

But orbital elements released by NORAD showed that at the time
of the reported impact, K-96 was not passing anywhere near
Kecksburg.

The only way to reconcile the tracking data is to:

1. Either assume the tracking data was generated as camouflage
for the true flight path which crossed PA at the right time, or

2. Assume there were other fragments in higher orbits (quite
plausible considering how the vehicle originally exploded weeks
earlier) that underwent different orbital evolution before
decaying at the "matching" time of day and location".


There is some further evidence which might clarify the tracking
data and re-entry co-ordinates and with assistance this is being
followed up.


NASA have confirmed to myself via a formal Freedom of
Information Act request that after an extensive search, there is
no trace of any records pertaining to recovery of the Cosmos 96
satellite or components thereof.

If Cosmos 96 was recovered, which organisation was therefore
involved and where is documentary proof to be found?

Any suggestions are welcome.

Just don't mention 'MJ-12'.


----- >>>>> o o0o o <<<<< -----


6. Robert the Bruce, an unexplained UFO and portends of doom.

Much closer to home, Dave Ledger reported:

"The following photos were submitted to UFO Scotland, taken by a
sight-seer, of the Robert the Bruce memorial in Stirling during
July of 1998. What the tourist did not expect to see upon
developing the pictures, was the anomalous object clearly in
view above the Stirling monument".

The photograph can be seen on Dave's web site at:

http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/stirling2.htm


A check on the newspapers for 19-20 July, suggested a possible
solution.

On the morning of 20 July, Microlight pilot Brian Milton flew
from Insch, near Aberdeen to Brooklands, London, completing the
final leg of a historic, first ever flight around the world in a
Microlight.

His route, however, took him along the east coast of Scotland, a
considerable distance from Stirling and at 4:50 p.m., he landed
for refuelling at Bagby, North Yorkshire, England, departing
again at 6:15 p.m.

The unresolved image could not therefore have been this at first
promising source and the resemblance to any Microlight,
particularly from the enlarged photograph image, is
questionable.

Examination of the negative could help establish whether the
explanation is a processing flaw or if it's possibly the genuine
depiction of an unidentified object - any known progress will be
reported in this newsletter.

In the meantime, it remains if nothing else a symbolic
photograph, was assuredly foretold in some ancient curse by the
Brahan Seer and is an omen of doom for all of us here in
Scotland.

Better stock up on the water of life.


----- >>>>> o o0o o <<<<< -----


7. New material of interest on the World Wide Web.

Currently on-line and recommended paying a visit to:

- The CIA and the U-2 program, 1954-1974 -

Newly declassified, the CIA's informative internal history of
the U-2 and OXCART programs.

The publication also gives some insight into the origins of
'Groom Lake' - later to be designated Area 51 - as a location to
house America's most secret aircraft projects.

http://www.odci.gov/csi/books/U2/index.htm


- New Area 51 images -

An extensive collection of newly taken photographs showing the
top secret base:

http://area51.icom.net/area51/newpics/


- Microsoft TerraServer -

The TerraServer web site contains "georectified digitized aerial
photographs" obtained from the United States Geological Survey
(USGS) and high-resolution satellite images from SPIN-2, a
"joint Russian/American venture to market declassified satellite
photographs from sophisticated Russian mapping satellites".

A stunning aerial photograph of B-52 Aircraft at Davis Monthan
AFB, Tucson, can be found under the 'Famous Places' index at:

http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/getpickpage.asp

I would like to hear of any other interesting and related images
which can be found on the vast database.


- 'Alien greeting cards' -

'Pop Artist' Robert Kolar asked if I could mention his "Special
Alien greeting cards for special people", which can be perused
and ordered from:

http://www.popart.com/shop/AlienCards.html


- Rare photograph -

A snapshot which has connections to Area 51 can be seen at:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/3310/Lazar.jpg

The bearded, gun bearin' person behind the "one hour PHOTO
DEVELOPMENT" counter is a youthful Bob Lazar, who was
predominately responsible for the mythology surrounding Area 51.

Although I'm uncertain about the exact date of this photograph,
it's apparently circa 1980s and before Lazar claims he was asked
to work at Area 51, as a physicist, on the 'reverse-engineering'
of alien spacecraft.

The photograph was amongst a collection of largely unknown Lazar
related material I receiv ed from the U.S. some time ago.


----- >>>>> o o0o o <<<<< -----


Quotable note:

"Machines with interchangeable parts can now be constructed with
great economy of effort. In spite of much complexity, they
perform reliably. Witness the humble typewriter, or the movie
camera, or the automobile. Electrical contacts have ceased to
stick when thoroughly understood. Note the automatic telephone
exchange, which has hundreds of thousands of such contacts, and
yet is reliable. A spider web of metal, sealed in a thin glass
container, a wire heated to brilliant glow, in short, the
thermionic tube of radio sets, is made by the hundred million,
tossed about in packages, plugged into sockets - and it works!
Its gossamer parts, the precise location and alignment involved
in its construction, would have occupied a master craftsman of
the guild for months; now it is built for thirty cents. The
world has arrived at an age of cheap complex devices of great
reliability; and something is bound to come of it".

Dr. Vannevar Bush, 1945.


----- >>>>> o o0o o <<<<< -----







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 9

                              Re: The Challenge

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:12:58 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 18:45:37 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Challenge
>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:29:56 -0500

>For my part, Dennis, I'll just say that you don't spit about
>this. Abductees demonstrably feel better when they accept their
>abductions as real, and come to terms with them. Part of what
>they come to understand is that they're still here, not
>permanently harmed, and that -- even if abductions continue --
>life goes on.


Greg,

I only know what I hear at conferences and read in the
literature. That, and what the occasional prophet passes along
when he or she comes down from the mountain top.

You snipped some of my points -- not that there's anythng wrong
that! -- which I would like to reiterate. [Actually, by
moderator, in an attempt to cut down the _massive_ amount of
quoting on this List --ebk] I was responding to a response of
yours addressed to Dianne Lovett in which she said:

>>I can assure you that for parents who have had little ones (as
>>young as 2) come to them for information and protection from
>>abductions, it is the worst nightmare possible.

In lieu of the fact that Hopkins, Jacobs and others now claim
that the profusely prolific abduction phenomenon dates back at
least to the turn of this century, I suggested that such a
traumatic experience _should_ have turned up _somewhere_ in the
medical, pediatric and/or psychological literature prior to the
advent of contemporary UFO literature. Yet as far as I am aware
there is not even a single suggestive example of same anywhere,
East, West, or inbetween.

And note that the context and atmosphere of the first half of
the century was an order of magnitude (or more) different than
the second half. The Society for Psychical Research was in its
heyday. Seances, spiritualists, and mediums were relatively
commonplace. Herschel (sp?) had claimed to have seen beings on
the Moon, Lowell had published a popular book on the discovery
of the Martian canals. The world was a wonderfully mysterious
place (as it still is, of course). In short, I think that had
the abduction experience been relatively common (or even
relatively rare) that we would have heard about it. Given
Freud's Wolf Man, this is the sort of story that contemporary
psychologists (or psychic researchers) would have killed their
fathers for. But the available record is resoundingly silent
about such experiences, along with the classic flying disk now
routinely associated with same.

As for Hopkins, I do admit that I sometimes tire of his tirades
directed at Sagan, Nova, and science in general, when, as far as
I can tell, he couldn't even cobble up a single sheet of
statistics based on his own decades long abduction research if
he had to. If that's a rant (your characterization), so be it.

(And don't take it as a defense of Nova, Sagan, and mainstream
science, either, as some probably will. Take it as the simple
observation that it is, namely, that science starts at home.)

>Thus, we learn even from an orthodox psychologist that accepting
>abduction experiences and learning more about them can relieve
>they anxiety they cause.

I'm all for reducing abduction anxiety, but "learning more about
them," for me, remains rather ambiguous and open-ended. Does it
imply, for example, that someone really _knows_?

But I'll concede that I think I know what you're getting at it.
As a non-experiencer, I would like to learn more about the
experience, too. Which raises the question: has anyone ever been
abducted who _wanted_ to be abducted, just to see what it was
like?

>Why do abductees react this way? Partly because nobody has been
>able to explain their reported experiences any other way. If,
>Dennis, there were some treatment that made reported abduction
>experiences stop, I'm sure abductees would flock to it. But
>there isn't, and many abductees have had a very bad time with
>conventional psychotherapy, because (and this has been discussed
>here before, too) their therapists tend to tell them they're
>crazy to believe their abductions might be real.

While I can't speak for their efficacy, or lack thereof, I
notice that Ann Druffel has just published an entire book based
on abduction avoidance techniques. But maybe her abductees are
different, somehow, from Budd's abductees?

>Whatever the abduction experience really is -- whether it's
>physically real or not -- the only proven way to relieve the
>anxiety it causes is to accept that it happens, and move on. (Of
>course, if abductees, taken as a group, showed signs of
>psychopathology, that might not be true. But they don't.)

>Greg Sandow


The _only_ proven way? Not according to Druffel. And then
there's Dr. Leo Sprinkle (and the former Dr. John Salter, now
Grey Hunter or somesuch), whose approach seems to be a variation
on the theme, why struggle, when you can lay back and enjoy it.
Or that of John Mack, who, for the price of an abduction, throws
in a past life or two (one as an alien) in the bargain. Or Dr.
Richard (no extra charge for the hot tub) Boylan or Dr. Edith
(oops, lost my license to practice, too) Fiore. And there's
always Whitley Strieber, who gets at least as much, if not much
more, mail than Budd in any given month.

There's so much about the abduction experience to learn --
presumably pretty much dependent on who you try to learn it
from. But I don't know spit, so don't try to learn it from me.
Besides, I ain't holding classes in it, adult or kindergarten.

You really ought to get out of New York City sometime, Greg, and
smell the alien roses. Otherwise you run the risk of learning as
much about abductions as Budd already knows. Ditto Dave.

Come to think of it, how are us non-abductees supposed to allay
the anxiety of learning that we are threatened with being
replaced and supplanted by alien hybrids almost any day now?

So much to learn about the abduction experience indeed! (And so
little time in which to do it!)

But again I'm afraid I rant.

Dennis Stacy






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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:38:56 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 18:55:38 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 23:38:42 -0500
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re:
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


>_Tradition_ is so important you could hire a portly gentleman to
>dance around and sing about it (Fiddler on the Roof).

Hey Stanton, if you won't go into the boxing ring
with one of the SETI people, then maybe.......

Oh, never mind.

Greg






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                              Re: The Challenge

From: Diane Lovett <rambld@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:16:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 19:27:43 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 19:29:49 -0600 (CST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Challenge


Dennis offered several thoughts, most of which have been
addressed already by several others. I would like to address
only one of his thoughts:

>Ugly choice for the non-abductees among us, isn't it? Everybody
>might think about that before they start offering abductees
>advice. Would you rather be right and wrong, vis-a-vis the
>potential mental health outcome, or wrong and right?

>Think about it.

>Dennis


Dennis,

I am not concerned about any advice that any non-abductee may
offer me to be honest.

It may well be terribly unfair of me, but after all of these
years I have developed a strong belief that with the abduction
experience - "If you haven't been there you will never really
understand".

I was very struck not long ago by a comment made by another
abductee, I believe on a Discovery channel program, as it
described very well the basic feeling I have, and that I know is
shared by many others.

To paraphrase that abductee - "I would give anything to find out
that I have some sort of brain disease (or even psychosis), and
that the rest of the world was safe".

The fact that I have to deal with every day however is that no
evidence of physical or mental illness that could explain it all
away for me (or my child) can be found.

The denial of others who have not been through it (or who just
don't want to know) is to me a very sad sound to still be
hearing after all of these years.

Diane





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                       Oppenheimer & Einstein Opinions

From: Doc Barry <authority@webtv.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:54:38 -0700 (MST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 19:54:18 -0500
Subject: Oppenheimer & Einstein Opinions


The purpose of opinions, on such a subject, from these alleged
writers is cloudy indeed.


If you wanted info on how to deal with the customs, culture, and
lifestyles of unknown civilization entities who could settle
here, to be reviewed by a President, would you inquire of
experts known for rocket science and mathematics, or would you
solicit info from a Margaret Meade or famous anthropologists?


It's a little like asking Ted Turner and Bill Gates to write
opinions of the best weaponry to use against invaders from outer
space, and then include the results in a review by the President
of the U.S.


Opinions from "considered experts" on a subject completely
detached from their fields of expertise, is in my opinion, name
dropping by a hoaxer.

== Doc Barry


~~~~~Get BREAKING news plus UFO/ET news - NOW - click on "What's Up
Doc?" http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518





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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 22:03:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 20:07:33 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 02:23:54 -0500
>From: Gary Levy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

>>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>>Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 01:03:42 -0500

<snip>

>>Tell us one specific example of how Hynek or Larsen piped
>>privileged information to the agency or one specific example of
>>how they damaged this quest on behalf of their agency.

>>What is your purpose in promoting this prejudicial portrait of
>>these men?  What truths do you hope to reveal, what gains do you
>>hope to make?

>>Please answer the _questions_.

>First an aside:

>Ted, now you have changed the questions, this is known as moving
>the field goal while the ball is in play.  John Velez has
>pointed out examples of this before on this list.


<snip>

>more later...

>Gary


More, but more what???

Apparently I asked the right questions.  Gary has worked so hard
to reconstruct and subvert them.  He has diligently woven a
charade to avoid answering them.  His restatement of my remarks
bear no resemblance to what I have written.  When a dialogue is
stillborn, I move my attention to other issues.  I will await
with mottled anticipation, excerpts from his upcoming book.  And
perhaps, unrelated threads to which he contributes.  This
fanciful tale of federal collusion and subversion leaves me
shaking my head in chagrin...

Bye...  Ted..






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 23:21:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 20:16:34 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:28:31 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

<snip>

>This is a very glaring mistake that is impossible to ignore or
>rationalize away.  It speaks hoax regardless of anything else.>

>Another anachronism is  much more subtle and obscure.  On page
>9, item #11, it reads:>

>"Detection of a high altitude explosion was recorded by a
>Project MOGUL constant level balloon on 4 July 1947.  Radar from
>White Sands Proving Ground and HAFB [Holloman AFB Alamogordo]
>also detected a surge."


As you have pointed out it is unlikely that there was MOGUL
balloon capable of detecting anything in the air on July 4. But I
am also intrigued by the statement regarding radar detecting "a
surge."

What the H---  is this supposed to mean?  A surge in what?

Radar could likely detect an explosion if the beam were pointed
directly at it (hot gasses...ionization....plasma... atmospheric
temperature gradients, etc.)   But whereas MOGUL was designed to
detect a "surge" in atmospheric pressure at high altitude
resulting very VERY distant (Sov. Union) explosions (nukes), I
can see no way that radar could have detected a "surge" from a
_very_ distant explosion.  So, what was the point of saying
radar detected a "surge?"






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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:43:31 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:26:05 -0500
Subject: Re:  The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

>Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 02:53:11 -0500
>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

This is being reposted as it did not have the correct subject
>heading when originally sent.  GA

>>>Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 06:22:10 -0500
>>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

>[....]

>We all know that in the last fifty years this field has made
>suprisingly little progress considering the obvious talent
>of many participants.

>Why should this be?

>The answer is that it has been shot full of agents from the very
>beginning.  That is, everywhere you turn you run into a veterans
>of this other world, intelligence and counterintelligence, even
>on this list.

>I am not going to give away the rest of the answers to your
>questions as I am writing a book on this very subject.

>I will however note, that it is a tribute to the skill and
>tenacity of this group of operatives that they continue to do
>their jobs with almost no one in ufology being any the wiser.



Gary,

And let's not forget to give a substantial share of the credit
to the UFO aliens themselves. If they had not, over a 50-year
period, fled over and over when our planes would try to chase
them, or retreated from view before the news media could
converge upon the scene, never hanging around long enough often
enough for their presence to become known to all, never
abducting their victims in full sight of hundreds of witnesses,
etc., progress within ufology would have been all too abrupt for
society to attempt to bear.

  Jim D.





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                Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...]

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 03:03:15 PST
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:53:45 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...]


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:52:39 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer & Apologies...

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer
>>Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 18:59:55 PST

>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:02:50 EST
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer

>>>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>>>Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer
>>>>>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 03:58:17 EST

>>>>>Oh, and BTW, tell me if you don't know the story about the
>>>>>real Canal Street in NYC...

>><snip>

>>>And to add to that, you got the world's _best_ lime rickey for a
>>>nickel.... God help me but I loved that place.  But, they then
>>>paved paradise, and put up a world trade center for some slope
>>>head to bomb.

>>Jim & List,

>>As much as I applaud your great good fortune in finding the
>>treasure of a lifetime I must take exception to your use of the
>>term 'slope head'. I find it a highly offensive, peurile,
>>obnoxious, childish and unworthwhile-of-this-List term. I
>>believe an apology to the List is in order . . . no wonder
>>staying on this list is so arduous.

>>Gesundt-hite Jim.

>>Leanne  ];-)

>Leanne, List and other entities,

>I sent you an email directly, Leanne, indicating lack of
>knowledge as to the derisiveness of the word "Slopehead!"
>Apologies are in order.  As they are freely given, it is hoped
>that they will be freely accepted.


***   Accepted (not freely - I'll add it to the tab ;-) )

>First, my use of this term was quite innocent, and as a result,
>did not refer to any particular person, race or thing.
>Therefore the apology I make is for using a word, the meaning of
>which I was unaware.  On that basis I am sorry.

I can understand that it may have entered common usage a term
for a neanderthal intellect or the like but, Jim, you should
have my reply to your off-list email by now in regard to its
original usage. I do prefer to give no other coverage here, tho.

Thanx for the quick reply,
Leanne  ];-)






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               Re: There Is Message Of Non-Human Intelligence

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:35:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:49:36 -0500
Subject: Re: There Is Message Of Non-Human Intelligence


>From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: There Is Message Of Non-Human Intelligence!!
>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:32:34 -0500


>Patricia Mason
>UNUSUAL RESEARCH


>My name is Vladimir Pakhomov. I am mathematician. I am happy to
>announce, that I has found its and has read. This unbelievably,
>but fact. On this has left several years of work.

>I has decipherred the most ancient cryptogram in world. Can be
>this palaeo-SETI.

<snip>

>The Crisis in Russia obstructs publishing the book. To break
>through this information blockade, I was connected to the
>Internet.

>Report the address of organizations and persons, leading work in
>this area of studies. Help me to leave on publishers of books,
>journals and newspapers. Or advise other way. Possible organize
>the debate?

>Best Regards,

>Excuse me for my English,

>Vladimir Pakhomov

>e-mail: domino@ntp.dubna.su


>RUSSIA


Patricia, Vladimir & List,

Has this "work" been validated?

Hopefully, the publishers won't publish _everything_ (or, every
rubbish) that's being written.


Regards,
AWS






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 16:50:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:04:22 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: Thiago Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 19:54:32 -0200


>Hello all,

>Are you all right? I hope so.

>Well I was watching a film about Roswell and came a doubt in my
>mind. I know that happened a lot of crashs on Earth, and beings
>were recovered... but all of them were the "grays" type, or with
>big head, no ears, hair... so I ask you.

>We know that there's others type of aliens, some of them very
>similar to us, blonde hair, tall.

>My ask is, there's any report about theses beings, the blondies,
>recovered after a crash? Some UFO of them crashed on Earth? Some
>alive?


>THIAGO LUIZ TICCHETTI
>Diretor Do Departamento de Publica=E7=E3o e Tradu=E7=E3o Especializadas
>(DEPTE/EBE-ET)
>ICQ - 22841973


Dear Thiago,

Actually, _photos_ of these blondies do really exist, please
check out this URL, where specifically one of them is pictured:

http://glamournet.com/legends/Marilyn/monthly/9612.html



Other pictures of the same creature you may find here:

http://glamournet.com/legends/Marilyn/monthly/archive.html



Hope this helps...


Regards,

AWS






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                Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...]

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:47:00 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:23:48 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...]


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...]
>Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:41:15 -0500

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:52:39 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer & Apologies...

><snip>

>>I do not recognize or
>>appreciate the word, "diversity," as it's use alone, connotes
>>the existence of difference.  Since I do not recognize
>>differences among peoples, other than those which are
>>irrelevant, I abhor prejudice.

>Dear Dr. Gesundt, two questions:

>1. In your opinion, does not recognizing differences among
>peoples, other than those which are irrelevant, make you
>relevantly different from most of your contemporaries?

>2. Where can I get Dr. Gesundt's wine?


Serge, List, other entities...

In answer to your questions, yes for one and as for two.......

Send me cash, not check or money order, for $0.25 American for
each gallon, and I will ship the product free of charge.  I have
the international marketing rights to Gesundt's Freshly made
wines and otherworld spirits.  I will sell no wine, until it's
ready!

:)

Jim





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               33 Years Ago Today: The Kecksburg, PA UFO Crash

From: Stan Gordon <paufo@westol.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:22:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:20:30 -0500
Subject: 33 Years Ago Today: The Kecksburg, PA UFO Crash


33 Years Ago Today: The Kecksburg, PA UFO Crash Incident
From: Stan Gordon

PA UFO Hotline (24 hours) 724-838-7768
www.westol.com/~paufo

It was 33 years ago today, that an event occurred about 40 miles
from Pittsburgh in a rural area of western Pennsylvania, that
even now remains controversial for some, and mysterious to
others.  At the time many people saw a brilliant object moving
across the sky.  The news media focused on a young boy, who
while playing outside, said he saw an object fall from the sky
into some nearby woods.  The media pursued his story since there
were numerous accounts from others, that an aerial object was
seen over a large area including many reports from the greater
Pittsburgh area.  Besides the police authorities, various
newspapers, and radio and tv stations around Pittsburgh, had
their phone lines jammed with calls about the object in the sky.
Coincidentally, author Frank Edwards, who had written some
popular books on UFO's, was a guest on a KDKA radio talk show in
Pittsburgh that evening, hosted by the late Mike Levine.

During my years of investigation into the matter, other
witnesses who saw the object go down into the woods that day
have been located. It has been stated that moments after the
object fell, blue smoke rose up among the trees, but dissipated
quickly. Many people say that the military, including members of
the Army and Air Force, began to arrive in the area around the
village of Kecksburg within a few hours after the reported
landing. During the evening, reporters from numerous media
sources went to Kecksburg to investigate the event. The area
around the alleged impact site was cordoned off, and a search
for the object was conducted in the woods.  Neither civlians nor
reporters were able to get near the spot where the object had
reportedly fallen.  Hundreds of spectators looked on from a
narrow country road which circled around the area, unaware that
the object appears to have fallen on the opposite side of the
woods.

As time passed that evening, many people left disappointed that
they couldn't see the object. A few curious folks tried to sneak
down into the woods, and later told me that they were turned
back by the military.  Late that night, others say they observed
a military flatbed tractor-trailer truck, carrying a large
tarpulin covered object, leaving the area at a high rate of
speed. Reporters are among the many witnesses who verify that
they saw military personnel in the Kecksburg area that night.
The front page of the Greensburg, PA Tribune-Review county
edition dated December 10, 1965, ran the headlines "Unidentified
Flying Object Falls Near Kecksburg" and "Army Ropes Off Area."
The city edition of the same paper however, on the same day ran
the headline "Searchers Fail To Find Object."

Officially, no object was found in the woods by searchers.  It
was suggested that the most likely explanation was that the
brilliant object in the sky was a meteor. But word that
something was removed from the site by the military that night,
quickly circulated around the county.  The Kecksburg incident
remained a topic for area radio talk shows for years as it does
today. As the years passed, I would receive various accounts
from sources who claimed knowledge of the event.  Many of those
involved with the incident even today, wish to remain anonymous.
Others have gone public and stand by their accounts. Some have
faced personnal attacks and ridicule.  Many important witnesses
have passed away.

What we now know is that there are individuals who say that they
went down into the woods that December day in 1965, before the
military arrived, and came across upon a large metallic
acorn-shaped object partially buried in the ground. The device
was large enough for a man to stand inside of it.  The object
was a bronze-gold color, and appeared to be one solid piece of
metal, displaying no rivets or seams.  At the back of the acorn
shape was what witness Jim Romansky calls the bumper area.

Upon this area were unusual markings that Romansky says looked
similar to ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics.  Romansky who has
been a machinist for many years, says the object itself, looked
as though it had been made from liquid metal and poured into a
big mold.  Since the object was impacted in the ground, the
bottom portion was not visible, but what could be seen appeared
well intact. The late John Murphy, was the new director of WHJB
radio in Greensburg at the time, and is believed to have been
the first reporter on the scene.  His former wife says that she
was in radio contact with him from the site that day, and that
he told her that he went down into the woods and saw the object.
Various informants have approached me with information.  Some of
these were people who had military or government affiliation and
wish not to be identified at this time. Some information is
expected to be revealed in the future, when these sources feel
that they are safe to disclose what they know.

I have also received anonymous tips that pointed me in the right
direction which helped to uncover other details.  Before
Unsolved Mysteries broadcast their story about Kecksburg in
1990, I was contacted by a former Air Force security policeman
who told me that he was among the unit that guarded the object
from PA, when it arrived in the early morning hours of December
10, 1965 at Lockbourne Air Force near Columbus, Ohio. He
remembers extreme security measures at the time, and says that
the object was only a the base for a short time, and then
continued on to Wright-Patterson Air Force base near Dayton,
Ohio.

We later learned that the object was allegedly sealed up inside
a building at that base. After years of searching for government
documents relating to this event, the only official record
located was in the Air Force Project Blue Book files.  Included
in the report it was stated "A further call was made to the
Oakdale Radar site in Pennsylvania.  A three man team has been
dispatched to Acme [Some residents not far from the site have an
Acme mailing address] to investigate and pick up an object that
started a fire."  While the report shows a lot of interest from
various agencies concerning the aerial object, the report also
indicates that the search found nothing. I have learned a lot
about the Kecksburg case over the years, yet there remain many
unanswered questions. I surely don't have all of the answers.

Based on the accounts of multitudes of eyewitnesses which I have
interviewed, I am convinced that an object did fall from the sky
and apparently was removed by the military.  Other witnesses say
they saw NASA personnel at the scene that night also involved in
the search. Many have asked me what I believe that the object
was, and my reply still is "I don't know."  As I have stated in
the past, the two most likely possibilities are (1) a highly
advanced man-made space probe with some reentry control
capability (2) an extraterrestrial spacecraft.  It has been
confirmed that a faulty Soviet Venus probe identified as Kosmos
96, reentered in Canada on the same date, but at about 3:18 A.M.
The sightings around Kecksburg occurred at about 4:47 P.M. many
hours later. The Russian's have told me that Kosmos 96 was not
the source of what fell that day.

 Other researchers have provided me with interesting but
unverifiable information, that they have talked with former NASA
sources who claimed to have examined the object which fell in
PA, and determined it to be Soviet in origin. I have also talked
with two former miltary men who are unknown to each other,  that
told me that during different years, and at different
installations, they saw the recovery report on the Kecksburg
object, and both said the report indicated that the object was
extraterrestrial.  From what the observers tell us, the object
whatever it was, appeared to be slowing down a few miles before
it impacted. During it's flight, it appears to have made some
turns, and those who saw the object drop from the sky, say it
was moving quite slowly as it moved towards the woods.  This
might account for the good condition of the object itself, and
the little damage at the impact site, except for trees which
were reportedly knocked down.

One question we must ask is what was it that fell which was so
important that it caused the military toi act the way they did
at the scene?  Various witnesses have now gone public confirming
that armed soliders were around the village, and were preventing
anyone from trespassing near the crash site.  Jerry Betters, a
popular jazz musician from Pittsburgh, has gone public and told
his story that soldiers aimed rifles at him and his friends,
ordering them from a back road, as an Army flat bed
tractor-trailer with an acorn-shaped object on board, was making
it's way up from a field.  More recently, a prominent
businessman contacted me and told me how he and his friends,
then teenagers in 1965, tried to get near the site and were
stopped my military personnel.  He was frightened at the time of
the experience, he thought the soldier was going to shoot him.
Would armed soldiers respond to the scene of a meteorite crash?
Who issued the orders for such an operation to take place?

Some of you are aware that earlier this year, I released a 92
minute video documentary on the incident called "Kecksburg The
Untold Story" which I produced at my own expense.  Many key
witnesses are getting up in years, and some are not in good
health.  This was an opportunity for those involved to tell
their own experiences about what occurred.  For the first time
some new and startling information is revealed about what
allegedly occurred.  Some of these people reveal details which
strongly suggests a coverup. Also included in the video, are
audio excerpts from the original 1965 WHJB radio broadcast
"Object In The Woods."  One man details his claim of seeing a
partially covered body inside a building at Wright-Patterson, at
the same time the Kecksburg object was being examined.

This case is much to involved to cover here in detail.  One good
source of information on the case can be found in Kevin Randle's
book "A History of UFO Crashes."  The Kecksburg mystery remains.
Was the object a man-made space device or did we receive a
visitor from outside of our world?  Recently while visiting an
area business, a worker recognized me and asked about the
Kecksburg case. He told me that he has had an interest in the
incident for years since he had a relative who worked at the
pentagon at the time, and this relative had made a special trip
to this area to investigate that matter. When this person asked
his relative about what had happened, he refused to give any
details, but his words were remembered "There was more to it
then you'll ever know."  I have no doubt that there are other
individuals who have important information on this case. It's
time that the truth is revealed, regardless of what the source
of the object was. It's been 33 years, it's time to break the
silence. If you have any information and would  like to talk
with me confidentially, contact me by email or mail and we can
make arrangements to communicate.

Those who would like information on how to obtain the Kecksburg
video can see ordering information by connecting to my website
at www.westol.com/~paufo  My mailing address is P.O. Box 936,
Greensburg, PA 15601. UFO Hotline 724-838-7768

Stan Gordon






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   Dec > Dec 10

                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:02:29 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:27:15 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com
>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 04:07:59 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


<snip>

>And yet you, Dennis, had the gall to charge Neil with: "Between
>the anachronistic retroviruses and Rorshach (sic)
>interpretations of the Ramey message, you need to decide whether
>you're a scientist interested in the UFO phenomenon, or a
>believer of certain UFO shibboleths with a passing interest in
>what is dismissively referred to (by many UFOlogists) as
>mainstream science." Your pitiful comments remind me of a gnat
>trying to sting a wonderful race horse!

>James Bond Johnson


Bond,

Admittedly not put very well, is it?

If you think I owe Neil a personal apology, I'll gladly tender
one. The point I was trying to make was that expertise in one
area doesn't necessarily convey expertise in another. Dr. Wood,
too, has a scientific curriculum vitae a yard long -- but that
doesn't necessarily make him right about the arguably bogus
(new) MJ-12 documents, either.

I appreciate all the hard, volunteer work Neil has put in on the
interpretation of the Ramey message. I look forward to the day
when expert photogrammetric analysis may be able to give us an
unambiguous reading of same. At the same time, I think some of
his comments in regard to retroviruses may leave a wrong
impression on some readers. His basic facts aren't in dispute --
it's the way that they're worded that I questioned.

One gnat's opinion.

Dennis






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                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:08:00 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:34:59 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


>From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: How To Film An Abduction
>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:49:53 -0600

>An extremely strong type of double-sided tape, possibly the type
>used to secure carpeting to the floor, could be purchased in a
>few square feet and secured to the ground on a proper location
>to entrap an intruder (especially a feeble li'l grey).  We've
>dubbed this the "alien-paper" method.

How about constructing a complicated maze the must be navigated
to reach the potential abductee? If it is a good one, the greys
should not be able to find their way out.

Of course, the abductee will have to commit the solution to
memory, or keep a carefully hidden map on hand...

-Scott Carr





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                              Re: The Challenge

From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 21:45:34 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 02:28:24 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


>From: Minna Laajala <hiekkape@saunalahti.fi>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Challenge
>Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 01:21:29 +0200

>At first, let me introduce myself. I`m a single-parent mother
>from Finland.  I have two sons, aged 9 and 10 years. I`m very
>interested in children`s role in abduction-cases, and will be
>thinking frequently about how they are possibly linked to our
>mind: is all made in there, or is something else also going on?

>One of the biggest reasons I`m thinking these thoughts is
>probably the same with many parents; I don`t like the idea of
>someone teasing my sons without asking me. (= or even with
>asking me a permission...) Still I`m worried, because it seems
>these stories do go on living, even finnish ufo-research society
>has heard moore and moore of them.

>>>>Budd Hopkins has a test to see whether kids might have been
>>>>abducted. He has a set of cards, that depict famliar fiigures in
>>>>everyday life -- a policeman, a fireman, and others. Mixed in
>>>>with the familiar figures is a standard alien face. He asks kids
>>>>to look at the cards, and tell a story about each. Some kids,
>>>>apparently, move quickly over the alien card, having no reaction
>>>>to it. Others get frightened, fall silent, or tell stories. "I
>>>>don't like him! He comes into my room at night."
>
>
>I have noticed the same, in other words children`s way to scare
>"E.T`s" pictures. I don`t think it`s a enough strong evidence
>about being abducted. Even some adults do scare those pictures.
>I could also think, that because I scare for airplanes, one must
>have been dropped me in it, but this has not happened. I think
>it`s quite dangerous to make such conclusions using children's
>stories as evidence. Kids are fine, but their imaginaiton is
>really rich, and I don`t myself trust so much about those
>abduction-stories. On the other hand; why would a kid need so
>much attention, that composes an exiting story about aliens
>abducting him/her?

>I think, that still at least my sons haven`t been abducted,
>though they do have also said, that "Little men played with me
>on the craft". I have heard about only one being in our bedroom;
>a mysterious "bogey", who is huge, ugly, and scary. It`s not an
>alien though. I have also been myself scared of bogeys in my
>childhood. I still think these creatures are somehow made by our
>fears, and because a kid scares so badly, he/she feels like
>someone real and physical is closebuy. When adults will exam the
>bedroom, no-one is found, but after they`ve gone back to the
>living-room with a huge grin on their face, it`s there again.
>And nobody belives you.

>
>Regards from a new member from Finland, you can call me Al... he
>he he, well, the real name is Minna.


Firstly I must apologize to everyone on the list for any crap
typing for the next six weeks or so, I've just broken my wrist,
(& also cracked a bone in the other elbow) in a cycling accident
earlier today.... and have spent the best part of the day in
hospital.

Dear Minna please take  Budd Hopkins with a pinch of salt, OK
he's on the right track, but I'm not convinced with his work
with children at all (I guess you've seen this on TV too?). He
is not impartial, he is actually planting ideas within these
childrens minds in my opinion. Surely every child in the
'Western World' (& probably half the rest of the world) has
experienced the 'grey icon' through the media. The use of these
cards is  probably quite ligitimate, but the questioning &
rational behind them (as per: Bud Hopkins) is crap!

I am an abductee (& basically a single parent with 2 young
children). Both my children are very aware of the phenomenon. My
youngest could describe events from 3 years of age, I have made
no attempt at 'brain-washing' or influence in any way... she can
describe things that only an abductee would understand. An
example being the last time it happened to me (back in June).
She woke up the following night (both my children usually have
to sleep in the same room as me) at about 2am screaming "they're
here", then in a trance like state told me what had happened the
previous night, I had not told her a thing but she knew. In the
morning she told me the same story. I know its happened to her
too, but there is no way I can stop it. The first contact occurs
in early childhood, prior to 5 years. She will have to live with
it too. Whereas my oldest is safe, I'm convinced he has'nt been
touched in any way.

OK setting up a video camera has made me feel safer. But no
amount of sticky tape*, mouse traps* a Faraday cage etc is
really going to help, is it? We need proof, we need to catch
one.

* most research points to them 'floating' above the ground, so
these would be useless.

Anyway keep in touch, I'm not really 'an entity lurking out
there'.

All the best, Marc Bell (WUFORG)






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   Dec > Dec 10

                            The Goldwater Letters

From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:45:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:45:32 -0500
Subject: The Goldwater Letters


  *Information From The International Roswell Initiative, Germany*
          ************************************************

Hi Errol, Hi List!

Recently I wrote two emails to this list regarding The Roswell
Declaration. I told you what happened and how embittered we
became by the shabby reaction of the U.S. Government towards the
20,000 signed Declarations - the expressed will of so many
goodwilling people from many countries, among them hundreds of
scientists, retired Generals and Apollo astronauts.

The second email was dealing with the effort of High School
students in Londonderry, New Hampshire. I gave you the text of
the letter from the teacher who had sent 800+ signed
Declarations to the OMNI magazine in 1994. I requested you to
imagine how disappointed these students must have been now
knowing that their own Govenment simply ignored them.

Perhaps someone of you would like to send some greetings of
solidarity to them just to show that they are not alone. This
surely would be very welcomed in Londonderry. The address is
given in email "The Roswell Declaration #2".

Today I would like to present here to you, exclusively for
Errol's fine list and so far we never published it elsewhere,
somepieces The International Roswell Initiative has received
when we all were busy making contacts to get support in 1994.

Surely you remember the attempt of Senator Barry Goldwater to
get access to Hangar 8 at Wright Patterson Air Force Base in the
seventies. They denied any access even for him as a Senator. On
behalf of the Interntional Roswell Initiative Kent Jeffrey once
wrote to Senator Goldwater and received an interesting response.
Also we received copies of 4 additional letters whereof I would
like to give the transcript of the texts, because due of copying
some of the letters are barely readable. The letters are real
and no hoaxes.

*****First letter*************
-----------------------------------------------------------

E.J.(Jake)Garn                                     [Letterhead
[Rest of letterhead       United States Senate     not readable]
not readable]              Washington, D.C.[Postcode]

                            June 17, 196?


Mr Lee. M. Graham
[Address blackened]

Dear Mr. Graham:

Thank you for your letter concerning rumors involving objects of
an extra terrestrial nature that may be kept in the "Blue Room"
at Wright-Patterson A.F.B.

Quite frankly, with respect to this subject, about which I am not
personally familiar, I must defer to the position of Senator
Goldwater, Chairman of the Senate Intelligences Commitee, when he
writes that "this thing has gotten so highly classified...it is
just impossible to get anything on it."

Thank you for your interest.

                           Sincerely,

                           [Signature]
                           Jake Garn

JG/ jmf

------------------------------------------------------------
*****end of first letter**********

*****second letter****************
------------------------------------------------------------

Barry Goldwater                          [letterhead not readable]
[not readable]
                      United States Senate
                        Washington, D.C.[postcode]

March 28, 1975


Mr.  Salomo Arnon
U.C.D.A. Experimental College
308 Westwood Plaza
Los Angeles, California 90024

Dear Mr. Arnon:

The subject of UFOs is one that has interested me
for some long time. About ten or twelve years ago
I made an effort to find out what was in the building
at Wright Patterson Air Force Base where the information
is stored that has been collected by the Air Force, and
I was understandably denied this request. It is
still classified above Top Secret. I have, however,
heard that there is a plan under way to release some,
if not all, of this material in the near future. I'm
just as anxious to see this material as you are, and I
hope we will not have to wait too much longer.

Sincerely

[Signature]

Barry Goldwater

------------------------------------------------------------
*****end of second letter****************

*****third letter************************
------------------------------------------------------------

Barry Goldwater                       [letterhead not readable]
[line not readable]
                     United States Senate
                     Washington, D.C.[postcode]


October 19, 1981


Mr. Lee M. Graham
[address blackened]

Dear Mr. Graham:

First, let me tell you that I have long ago given up acquiring
access to the so-called blue room at Wright-Patterson, as I have
had one lonng string of denials from chief after chief, so I
have given up.

In answer to your questions, [underlined]one is essentially
correct, I don't know of anyone who has access to the
[underlined] blue room, nor am I aware of its contents and I am
not aware of anything having been relocated. I can't answer your
question six, in fact, I can't find anyone who would answer it.

To tell you the truth, Mr. Graham, [underlined]this thing has
gotten so highly classified, even though I will admit there is a
lot of it that has been released, [underlined] it is just
impossible to get anything on it.

I am returning your papers because I know they are of value to
you.

Sincerely,

[signature]

Barry Goldwater

------------------------------------------------------------
*****end of third letter********************

*****fourth letter**************************
------------------------------------------------------------

Barry Goldwater                      [letterhead not readable]
[line not readable]
                     United States Senate
                     Washington, D.C.[postcode]


June 20, 1983


Mr. William S. Steinman
[address blackened]


Dear Mr. Steinman:

To answer your questions, I have never gained access to the
so-called Blue Room at Wright Patterson, so I have no idea what
is in it. I have no idea of who controls the flow of
need-to-know because, frankly, I was told in such an emphatic
way that it was none of my business that I've never tried to
make it to my business since.

I wish you luck on your investigation. I'm one of those people
who believe that with some two billion planets scattered around
the universe, there has to be a couple of more that can support
life on it.

Sincerely,

[signature]

Barry Goldwater

-------------------------------------------------------------
*****end of fourth letter******************

*****fifth letter**************************
-------------------------------------------------------------

                      Barry  Goldwater
                       P.O. BOX 1 601
                 SCOTTSDALE. ARIZONA 85252

July 26, 1994

Mr. Kent Jeffrey
Porteous Ave. Fairfax, CA 94930

Dear Mr. Jeffrey:

You touch something very close to me, by your letter. Roswell
has long been a point of great interest to me, since the
first UFO's turned up. You see, I both believe in UFOs and I
don't believe in them. My argument is that God, m creating
the universes as he did, would not just have made one planet
with living things.

Butch Blanchard was a very close friend of mine. I worked
with him in the Air Force, and am almost certain that I knew
your father, the Colonel. There is not much we can do about
getting the things about Roswell that you would like. I
tried diligently to get them from General LeMay, and the only
cussing out he ever gave me, was when I very vociferously
asked him for information.

It was nice to hear from you. I guess we'l1 just keep on trying.

Sincerely

[signature]

Barry  Goldwater

                    Office Phone[....] Fax[....]

---------------------------------------------------------------
******end of fifth letter**************************

At least it was interesting to read the letters because they
confirm again the existence of a supersecret Hangar at Wright
Patterson AFB and they give a historic aspect on Senator
Goldwater and his interest in extraterrestrial intelligence.

And, of course, they show, how powerless our elected
representatives are against the military complex.


Joachim Koch
International Roswell Initiative, Germany





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                              Re: The Challenge

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 19:37:41 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:14:03 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


>From: Minna Laajala <hiekkape@saunalahti.fi>
>Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 01:21:29 +0200
>Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:36:39 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Challenge

Previously, Ms. Laajala offered:

>Hey folks!

>At first, let me introduce myself. I`m a single-parent mother
>from Finland.  I have two sons, aged 9 and 10 years.

>Regards from a new member from Finland, you can call me Al... he
>he he, well, the real name is Minna.


Hello, Minna!

Welcome to the list. I've only been a member for a few months,
but the discussions have been fun (mostly). I'm glad to see that
you have experience with 9 and 10 year olds.

That should come in very handy, here. ;-)

(How appropriate you should join under the thread "The
Challenge")

Just joking. I hope you enjoy the debates and look forward to
your continued input!

Take care,
Roger Evans
Houston, Texas





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                   Playfull Lights In The Scotland Skies?

From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 22:09:02 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:22:23 -0500
Subject: Playfull Lights In The Scotland Skies?


Dear Errol & listmembers,

Here at UFO Scotland, we have recently received a few sightings
which seem to bear a remarkable similarity with regards to the
apparent behaviour of the unknown objects.

I thought that the listmembers may find these reports of
interest.

Thanks for your time and good luck to all,

Your friend,
             Dave Ledger (UFO Scotland)

(Reports Follow:)

Location: : Jordonhill College,Scotland
Date: : Mon 19 Oct 98
Time : 8:00 pm & 8:45 pm approx
Source : Witness sighting report form

Sighting : At 2000hrs approx while we were sitting in the car
park a bright light drifted accross the sky from left to
right.Later at approx 2045hrs we seen two bright lights moving
in the sky above and right of the college they moved quickly,
performed some quick manouvers and flew off togeher, left over
the airport and out of site. It was a crisp clear night, there
was airplane traffic and helicopter traffic as well. The two
objects we saw seemed to be "playing tig" or having fun.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:My sighting report
Date:Sat, 5 Dec 1998 21:31:21 -0000
From:"David Walker" <DWalker@kirky98.freeserve.co.uk>
To:<UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk>

Location: Kirkintilloch, Scotland

At 3.28 am on Sunday 29th November I awoke and was aware of a
bright light in the sky. Whether it was this that wakened me or
not I don't know. I thought at first it was a plane coming into
land as I was not aware of such a bright object in that
position.

I never thought any more of it and was about to go back to sleep
when I thought I saw the object move. I rubbed my eyes and
looked again. The object then split into two and started to
dance about the sky close to each other in figures of eight and
in circles.

<snip due to previous posting of this report>

(and then:)

The objects seemed to dance about like two kittens playing, it
was totally bizarre. The bright object remained in the sky and
this made me doubt what I had just witnessed.

<snip>

----------------------------------------------------------------


Date:Fri, 4 Dec 1998 23:14:01 -0000
From:"Andrew Caterer" <A.Caterer@tesco.net>
To:<dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
Location: Edinburgh/Fife

Hi,

I just visited your site and I thought I would mail you with
something I saw today Friday 4 December at 2.50pm.

I work for an Insurance Company in St Andrew Square, Edinburgh.
The office where I am based is on Queen Street.  I have views
from attic type windows across the Firth Of Forth over to Fife.
This afternoon I was talking to a colleague and I was looking
out across the forth.  The view was clear and the sky was still
light.  I observed two lights roughly the same colour as a
streetlight but their distance was difficult to judge, however
they appeared to be over Fife.  It was if the sun which was low
in the sky was reflecting off metal.  The lights when I first
saw them appeared to be close together.  As I watched them they
moved around fairly quickly - slow enough to follow their
progress but quick enough not to be ordinary aircraft.  At no
time did I see any type of aircraft.  I watched them move around
for about a minute.  Two of my colleagues also observed them.
There movement was fairly erratic.  At one stage they
disappeared from view and then returned briefly before one moved
off quickly towards the left out of view.  The other one then
disappeared from view.

I must admit that I have always been very sceptical about this
topic, but I thought that you may find this of interest.  For
the record there are always alot of aircraft that we can see
starting their westerly approach to Edinburgh airport.  These
lights were definitely not aircraft.

(Further info following e-mail interview)

Dear Dave,

Thanks for your reply.

Just a few additional points that may help :-

1.  Weather conditions at the time were excellent.  There were
excellent views across to Fife.  There was very little breeze.

2.  Using your suggestion, I would estimate size of lights to be
the size of a Pearl, if I was to look at it from my arms length.

3.  Elevation, I would estimate to be at around 30-35 Degrees.

4.  Distance would be very difficult to estimate.  Although the
objects were definitely over the Fife side of the Forth and some
way inland.  From where I was looking I would reckon their
position to be a few miles west of Kirkcaldy.

I looked at the video footage on your site and there did seem a
lot of familiarity with the footage from one of your clips,
namely the one where there are two parts.  Also the more I think
about this the lights were not reflections, but as I mentioned
in my previous mail they were the colour of orange street
lights.

I have tried to be as precise as possible.  If you have any
further queries, I am more than willing to help.

Regards
Andy

<END>
--
==================================================================
If you see someone without a smile......give them one of yours :)
******************************************************************
Posted by: Dave Ledger  (mailto:UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk)
VISIT "UFO SCOTLAND" AT:
<A HREF="http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/index.htm">UFO
Scotland.</A>
ICQ pager      http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4851425
******************************************************************
THE TRUTH IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!..................BUT HOW FAR?
==================================================================






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                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 22:59:58 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:24:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


NOTE:

The following is NOT a debate regarding the existence of ET
abductions. I take no position on the veracity of such claims.
And, for the record, let me make it clear that I do not make
light of any abductee's trauma. But, for the sake of bandwidth
(and EBK's sanity), I'd like to confine this discussion to only
those members that believe in even the most remote possibility
that abductions could be real. Thanks...


Hello, list.

Much has been made of the "classic" ET abduction experience;
i.e. loss of time, finding one's self in another location with
no memory of events, etc. For some, encounter groups and
hypnosis help to retrieve some memories, others continue to live
their lives with no answers to the mysteries that haunt them.

However, I'd like to open a discussion regarding an aspect of
abductions that I have yet to see approached. According to much
literature that I've read over the years, reports of abductions
seem to go as far back as the turn of the century; perhaps even
further, depending on the accuracy or interpretations of the
records that were kept about such things. Most abductions seem
to be of the "classic" variety described above. And, of course,
the only reason we have such reports is because the victims were
returned to tell their tell, even though such memories may have
been purposely "erased" by the abductor, only to be retrieved
using measures described earlier.

And this, I think, is the focal point of this discussion.

When humans pull an animal from the herd to be studied, many
times the animal will not be returned. And even if it is not
kept indefinitely, it may not necessarily be returned to exactly
the same spot or, in some cases, even the same herd. The
exception to this might be the study of a social group such as
lions or monkeys where maintaining the structure of the family
or group is also vital to information being gathered.

What has this got to do with ET abductions?

Well, if you consider the intentions of the ETs in question, one
has to ask why they find it important to return the victim at
all. Secondly, why do they find it necessary to erase the
victim's memory? One might suppose that the ET's intentions were
to hide evidence of themselves from humans.

But does this really make sense?

If ETs thought no more of us than we do of cattle, then I doubt
they'd bother returning anyone at all. I mean, why bother?
People vanish all the time without ET involvement; more often,
actually. If they are concerned about discovery, why take the
risk? As far as returning them with "erased" memories; again,
why bother? Certainly, it must be obvious by now that we humans
have methods to deal with such memory retrieval. The very
existence of this discussion should be proof enough to an
eavesdropping ET that "memory" deletion doesn't work!

However if one took the position that, as in the study of
monkeys and lions, it was important to the ETs not to interrupt
the day to day existence of their victims and the rest of the
social group, then such a return makes a bit more sense.

Of course, this begs the question of "how" the ETs observe us,
the "social group". Monitoring of our TV broadcasts would
certainly give them some idea of the human condition (though I'd
hate to think that "Three's Company" stood as the symbol of
human achievement in the cosmos). On the other hand, such
technology has only existed for the last fifty years; radio, not
much longer. Considering that abductions supposedly predate such
things, two disturbing questions come to mind:

1) What did the ET's do to observe us before RF transmissions?
Did they walk among us?

2) If such a technique was employed effectively in the past, why
should we feel that it has been abandoned in favor of the less
accurate monitoring of RF transmissions?

In short, I feel that the age old notion that ET's are being
sneaky just to hide their existence doesn't cut it, anymore.
Obviously, we know they do exist. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure
that THEY know we know. You know?

Curious what you guys think...

Later,
Roger Evans





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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 23:20:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:32:02 -0500
Subject: Re:  The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>Date: Tues, 8 Dec 1998 00:25:46 -0500

>>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 18:48:41 -0500
>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>Gary, thanks for making some effort to reply to my questions.
>Still, you could have easily ventured to give us one single
>substantial example of a specific act these men may have
>committed.

 <snip>

>Instead you further abuse us with generalized implication and
>vague conjecture.  I would be apprehensive of the tenor of your
>response if someone was to ask you what color the daylight sky
>is.  I have a growing suspicion that some agency has highjacked
>Gary Alevy's electronic identity and turned it over to some
>cyber obsfuscation algorithym...

>Bye...  Ted..

Ted,

Yes, the daylight sky is generally blue when cloudless and not
filled with atmospheric dust except when it is overcast or
cloudly and etc.

Now, can you respond on the following issues I most seriously
raise and request be answered for the readers of this list.
These are the questions listed in the following sections
regarding:

  I.   The IUR
  II.  CUFOs and
  III. Hynek's academic achievements.

I dare say that many readers will be waiting for your answers
to the items listed below. As you and Jerry seem to be the chief
defenders of and apologists for Dr. Hynek and Sherm Larsen I
expect you will be responding; however, anyone else with
pertinent information is respectfully requested to join in.

I have looked at J. Allen Hynek's body of work and quite frankly
I don't think it's very impressive.

I think that James E. McDonald's paper delivered at the AAAS
1969 meeting is the best piece in the UFO field I have ever
seen.  Nothing written by Hynek even comes close.

What am I missing about J. Allen Hynek?

It is my conjecture that Hynek's career as an astronomer was
hardly first rank, probably because of his involvement in the
UFO field, on which he spent a significant amount of his time.
And even here one must ask: What is his
lasting legacy in ufology -- CUFOS?

Section I.

Although I subscribe to and enjoy the IUR, the journal has a
small circulation.

a)How influential is it?

b)Is it cited in the mainstream press or media, do they
  even know it exists?

c)How many university libraries subscribe?

Section II.
Regarding CUFOS as an organization:

Why are the following the current situation?

 ** It has no permanent employees.

 ** It has no endowment.

 ** The library is not easily accessible to the general public
    or for research outside of working hours.

 ** CUFOS sponsors no interdisciplinary conferences furthering
    the scientific recognition of the UFO, and never has to
    my knowledge.

 ** CUFOS sponsors no original research in the UFO field.
    That is, it issues no grants or stipends to researchers.

And all this is _not_ happening fifty years after Arnold -- and
seems to be the BEST that the field can offer!

Now, whose fault is that?

That is, if Dr. Hynek and Sherm Larsen were such balls of fire
in the UFO world then surely we could point to a better record
than this by now, couldn't we?  I think so.

Section III. As far as publications go in the UFO field, what
did Hynek publish besides the books below and a few derivative
papers delivered at conferences?

The Hynek UFO Report,  The UFO Experience 1972, The Edge of
Reality, co-author.

In order to arrive at a fair consideration of his
accomplishments in the field I think we might consider widely
used and accepted standards applicable to academic scientists in
their fields.

Let's see where Dr. Hynek might rank.

I invite list readers to check the list below and would
appreciate the contribution of any list members who can help
supply the answers.  And don't waste everyone's time providing
citations without checkable references!

Let's answer the following in detail:

 1) Number of publications in refereed journals as principal author.

 2) Number of publications in refereed journals as co-author.

 3) Rank/quality of journals in which articles were published,
    especially those where the researcher was the principal author.

 4) Number of times researcher is cited by colleagues in other
    refereed journals -- mainstream separate from ufo journals.

 5) Number of Ph.D. graduate students produced by this researcher
    in astronomy and/or UFO studies, listed separately.

 6) Amount of outright grant money of all types brought in
    as a result of the efforts of the researcher.

 7) Quality of the individual's skills as a instructor.

 8) Quality of the school from which he got his Ph.D. and
    who his advisers were.

 9) What has the organization that he founded done
    to advance the study of and recognition of the UFO
    outside of the field of ufology?


Corollary questions are:

 1) What original research articles did he publish?

 2) What refereed journals was this work published in?
    a) in mainstream scientific journals
    b) in the UFO field

 3) What are all the publications that he made in his lifetime
    on UFOs, i.e. his bibliography?

 4) What grants did he obtain for his UFO research?
    a) funded privately? amounts?
    b) funded by government sources?

 5) How many graduate students did he supervise in UFO studies?
    e.g. Ph.D. candidates, Masters candidates.

These should do for starters.  Any takers out there?

Gary






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   Dec > Dec 10

             HOT GOSSIP UK - DECEMBER - Nick Pope's Weird World

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:48:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:46:26 -0500
Subject: HOT GOSSIP UK - DECEMBER - Nick Pope's Weird World



HOT GOSSIP UK - DECEMBER
Nick Pope's Weird World

Welcome to the December column, and a selection of news and
gossip about UFOs,  alien abductions, the paranormal, and
anything else that I think deserves a mention! So  here it is --
the festive guide to what's hot and what's not, in this weird
but wonderful  world:

    Order, Order

Regular readers will doubtless recall that I'm always talking
about how the UFO issue is  regularly raised in parliament, with
formal questions being tabled in both the House of Commons and
the House of Lords. Georgina Bruni detailed some of the more
recent questions in last month's magazine, but I thought I'd add
some more general observations. It seems to me that
parliamentary interest in UFOs is one of the most tangible signs
that some of those within the Establishment do take the issue
seriously. There are defence and national security implications
involved, and to see the matter raised in parliament is one way
to  bring this home to people. Full detailsof parliamentary
debates and questions are printed  in the Hansard records, which
are read by Ministers, MPs, Peers, senior civil servants,
senior military officers and top journalists. So every time the
UFO issue is raised, all these key Establishment figures see the
material. From what I've been told, it's certainly changed a few
minds, and led to some very influential people beginning to look
at the subject more closely.

    The Real X-Files

Following on from the above, the most intriguing questions asked
in parliament recently   concerned the old Air Ministry and
Ministry of Defence UFO files. For those people who  like to
imply that the subject is not particularly important, it turns
out that there are nearly sixty official government files about
UFOs, held at the Public Record Office in Kew. They contain a
mixed lot of material. There are policy files, detailing how the
government  responds to UFO incidents, and files detailing UFO
sightings witnessed by military  personnel, or tracked on radar.
There are even accounts of jets being scrambled to try to
intercept UFOs. Some of these files were classified as secret.
Other files contain details of  less exciting encounters, or
exchanges of correspondence with the public. It really is worth
a look, and those who are interested should download the list of
available files from last  month's magazine, and head down to
Kew.

    UFO City

Type in the word "UFO" on any search engine, and you'll see that
it's one of the most  popular subjects on the Internet. There
are countless websites devoted to the subject.  Some of these,
like www.cninews.com are excellent, while some are pretty poor.
I'm delighted to say that another truly excellent site has been
started up. The brains behind it is  respected American
ufologist and abduction researcher Peter Robbins, who is perhaps
best known for his book Left At East Gate - a book about the
Bentwaters case, written  with key witness Larry Warren. Peter
works for Central Park Media, and their website is  well worth a
look. Georgina and I were happy to get involved in this exciting
new project, and both write columns. Check it out at
www.ufocity.com.

  Phone Home

OK, so I did a radio commercial for One 2 One mobile phones,
saying how I'd like to  have a one to one with an alien. This
seems to have made me public enemy number one  with certain
ufologists, who have accused me of trivialising the subject and
selling out! Take a chill pill! It was only a bit of fun, and if
we can't have a bit of fun every now and  then, and inject a
little humour into the subject, we might as well not bother.

    Dr Edgar Mitchell

Only twelve people have ever walked on the moon - Edgar Mitchell
is one of them, and  he's been courting controversy recently
with his outspoken >comments about UFOs. He's  fairly sure that
some UFOs are extraterrestrial in origin, and has recently
stated that the  American Government should grant immunity to
any senior officials wishing to testify on  the subject, and
release them from any requirement to keep such matters secret.
Given that the US authorities deny having any evidence about
intelligent alien visitations, there  should be no problem in
agreeing with Dr Mitchell's request. Watch this space for
developments.

    You Stupid Cults

In the run-up to the Millennium, I've been monitoring the
activity of a couple of cults,  which have been trying to
recruit in the London area, and maybe more widely. One of them
had actually been advertising in one of the free magazines given
away at underground stations in London. I'd threatened to name
and shame the magazine  concerned if they didn't drop the
advertisement. I've been monitoring the situation, and  have not
seen the advertisement since I exposed it here in Hot Gossip UK.
We've won the battle, but the war goes on. But rest assured, I
will be watching, and I will take action  against all those who
seek to prey upon the most vulnerable members of society.

    Rudloe Manor

RAF Rudloe Manor seems to be something of a holy grail amongst
conspiracy theorists,  who make all sorts of bizarre and na=EFve
claims about covert UFO investigations,  underground bases etc.
As I've always made clear, RAF Rudloe Manor's only role in the
UFO reporting chain was to act as a focal point for the
collection of UFO reports made  to RAF bases (one of the most
common places that the public contact about sightings)and to
send them to Sec(AS). Anything else is myth and nonsense, and
they certainlycarried out no investigations - this was my job.
Why do I mention this?Because on 9th  November the headquarters
of the RAF Provost and Security Services moved from the  manor
house at Rudloe Manor to RAF Henlow. Let's see how long it takes
conspiracy  theorists to work this out for themselves.Let's see
whether claims about underground cities, and tunnels to Downing
Street and Buckingham Palace begin to surface about RAF Henlow.
You heard it here first!

    The Fall Guy

The November/December edition of the excellent UFO Magazine is
out, and amongst the  usual mix of interesting material is an
account of the proceedings of the 17th Leeds  International UFO
Conference. Apparently one of the speakers suggested that during
my  three years official research and investigation into UFOs at
the Ministry of Defence I only  saw UFO reports from the public,
and was kept in the dark about cases involving the military. Er,
right, these would be the military cases that I described two
years ago in my  book Open Skies, Closed Minds. It was also
claimed that the "real" UFO investigations  were carried out by
mysterious and spooky departments that I didn't know about. Er,
right, these would be the same specialists I liaised with
regularly, as I also described two years ago in Open Skies,
Closed Minds. I don't mind people criticising me behind my back,
and I don't mind people trying to make a name for themselves by
>attacking me in  public, but please do a little bit of research
first - otherwise you'll just end up looking silly,  and bring
the whole subject into disrepute.

    Time Travel

I'm a firm believer in the extraterrestrial nature of some UFOs,
and have made a particular  study of alien abductions,
summarising my findings in my book The Uninvited. But I hope I'm
honest enough to highlight theories that I don't agree with,
where they're  well-researched and interesting. cordingly, I'd
like to draw your attention to an idea  which I've always been
intrigued by, and that's the theory that aliens aren't
extraterrestrial, but are time travellers from the future.
There's a certain logic in the idea that this explains why
aliens are essentially humanoid, with large heads and spindly
bodies. The theory is that the Greys - as they are known - are
what we evolve into! For further information I suggest you read
Visitors From Time by Marc Davenport (Greenleaf Publications)
and  Time Travellers From Our Future by Dr Bruce Goldberg
(Llewellyn Publications).

    And Finally

Ufology can be a bitchy and backbiting business, but at the end
of the day, I'm sure we  can all put our differences aside,
especially at this time of year. So I'd like to offer festive
greetings to everybody - believers, sceptics, conspiracy
theorists, those who are  undecided and those who don't care at
all and have just browsed into this column by mistake or out of
curiosity. Whoever you are, and whatever you believe I hope you
have a wonderful Christmas!


Eds Note:

The Uninvited by Nick Pope is published by Simon & Schuster
price 15.99 Open Skies,Closed Minds is now also available in
paperback. Both are available in the shops now. If you have a
problem obtaining a copy please e-mail the editor or contact
Simon & Schuster publishers.

 =A9 Hot Gossip UK 1998
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
Permission to distribute text providing the authors and
publication are credited. Photographs may be copyright and
cannot be used without consent.  =A9 Hot Gossip UK 1998
www.hotgossip.co.uk
The above text is taken from "Nick Pope's Weird World"




* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Georgina Bruni
Editor in Chief of HOT GOSSIP UK
www.hotgossip.co.uk

E-mail: georgina@easynet.co.uk
E-mail: 104707.336@compuserve.com
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *





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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:53:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:53:10 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 23:38:42 -0500
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re:
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 18:48:41 -0500
>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

><snip>

>Nah.  There may have been disinformation activities directed toward
>certain individuals over the years, but this, in my opinion is small
>potatoes compared to the following:

>1) AF refused

>2) AF made statements

>3)  The scientific community ... so supported the AF position (without
>knowing of the AF data!)

>4) the press "running dogs of the AF" followed along an
>ridiculed witnesses

>5) the BIG ONE:::::................ the _self_cover_up_!

>No one really wanted to know the truth because they weren't sure
>that if they knew the truth they would be free!

>Even AF intelligence partook of te self-cover

>All 5 of these worked together

>As for myself, I'll just climb back into the trenchs and slug it
>out with the individual sightings by normal, honest people who,
>so far as I can tell,. have no axe to grind.  (I recently
>completed such an investigation.)

Bruce,

And nary a word about the role of the intelligence community?

Gee Bruce you've just ignored all of the Lorenzen's research and
APRO publications.  How how quickly one forgets.  Guess the boys
at Langley count on no one knowing the history of the field, sad
they could be correct. I guess the next member of the tag team
can address this issue.

Gary





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   Dec > Dec 10

                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:32:28 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:03:44 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 16:50:16 +0100
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>From: Thiago Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet
>>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 19:54:32 -0200

>>Well I was watching a film about Roswell and came a doubt in my
>>mind. I know that happened a lot of crashs on Earth, and beings
>>were recovered... but all of them were the "grays" type, or with
>>big head, no ears, hair... so I ask you.

>>We know that there's others type of aliens, some of them very
>>similar to us, blonde hair, tall.

>>My ask is, there's any report about theses beings, the blondies,
>>recovered after a crash? Some UFO of them crashed on Earth? Some
>>alive?

<snip>


>Actually, _photos_ of these blondies do really exist, please
>check out this URL, where specifically one of them is pictured:

>http://glamournet.com/legends/Marilyn/monthly/9612.html

>Other pictures of the same creature you may find here:

>http://glamournet.com/legends/Marilyn/monthly/archive.html


Dear Asgeir, Thiago, List and other entities:

I checked these two sites out personally.  Yep, these photos are
_definitely_ the "blond types" referred to in Thiago's post.
Yep, yep, yep..... oh yes, indeed.

Certainly if one of these creatures were to come for me in the
night, I would most likely go willingly whilst singing all the
way to her craft, "Aaaahhhhh, sweet mystery of life at last
you;ve found me...."  and singing the praises of the Great
Almighty .... on bended knee.

Instead, "He" sends pastey little bug eyed loony tunes or worse.
Some days it just doesn't pay to go to bed. Not even a bottle of
my very best helps at times like these.

Dr. Gesundt





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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:53:42 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:15:58 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:02:29 -0600 (CST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com
>>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 04:07:59 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

><snip>

>>And yet you, Dennis, had the gall to charge Neil with: "Between
>>the anachronistic retroviruses and Rorshach (sic)
>>interpretations of the Ramey message, you need to decide whether
>>you're a scientist interested in the UFO phenomenon, or a
>>believer of certain UFO shibboleths with a passing interest in
>>what is dismissively referred to (by many UFOlogists) as
>>mainstream science." Your pitiful comments remind me of a gnat
>>trying to sting a wonderful race horse!

>Bond,

>Admittedly not put very well, is it?

>If you think I owe Neil a personal apology, I'll gladly tender
>one. The point I was trying to make was that expertise in one
>area doesn't necessarily convey expertise in another. Dr. Wood,
>too, has a scientific curriculum vitae a yard long -- but that
>doesn't necessarily make him right about the arguably bogus
>(new) MJ-12 documents, either.

>I appreciate all the hard, volunteer work Neil has put in on the
>interpretation of the Ramey message. I look forward to the day
>when expert photogrammetric analysis may be able to give us an
>unambiguous reading of same. At the same time, I think some of
>his comments in regard to retroviruses may leave a wrong
>impression on some readers. His basic facts aren't in dispute --
>it's the way that they're worded that I questioned.

>One gnat's opinion.

>Dennis


Dennis,

Your prompt reply to my challenge of your caustic criticism of
Neil Morris is appreciated. Your explanation is direct, fair and
statesmanlike. I will insure that Neil sees your statement. You
would _not_T make a good bureaucrat: they seldom include in
their vocabularies the word: "oops!"

James Bond Johnson






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   Dec > Dec 10

                 December 7th 'Landing'? Poor Science Or...

From: Michael Theroux <theroux@borderlands.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:10:15 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:23:19 -0500
Subject: December 7th 'Landing'? Poor Science Or...


[Non-Subscriber Post]

I have posted an article to my site called, "December 7th
Landing? Poor Science or the Fabrication of Another Hoax?" It
details serious problems with the so-called research presented
by several researchers concerning the so-called "Landing".

See:

http://www.borderlands.com/newstuff/research/dec7/december7-hoax.htm

As I said on my website, I will accept any challenge to this
information from the so-called researchers in question. I should
think they may want to revise their posted information as it is
incorrect - unless of course they have no desire to present the
truth.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael Theroux
Director
Borderland Sciences Research Foundation - Since 1945
http://www.borderlands.com
theroux@borderlands.com
Ph. 707.825.7733 FAX: 707.825.7779
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:07:53 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:33:59 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:27:19 -0500
>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>>From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com>
>>Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:31:49 EST
>>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: NEW MJ-12 Documents on the Internet!!!

>>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE November 30, 1998

>>PRESS CONTACT Melinda Mattei 650-558-0890 mmattei@earthlink.net

>>URL Source  (PDF Format)
>>http://www.thewordistruth.org/narr_article.cfm?id=765

<snip>

>Elsewhere, in other documents, the lack of recognizable controls
>for the alien craft was discussed.  There were no dials, meters,
>nor buttons; but, there is the mention of "panels" which might
>have been
>used for direct mental control.

>Shades of Santilli!

>Terry

Terry & List,

At first glance, this report seemed to be 'the report of
the millennium', next to Snorri's Heimskringla. But, after
some reading, everything seemed to be 'falling apart'..., as
also indicated/debated in many previous mails in this List.

I also have some contribution to this discussion process,
and I have the following comments and questions to the report:

* Seemingly, an old typewriter has been used...

* The reporter _might be_ mixing 'fusion' (on page 8) and
  'fission' reactors (on page 11). The fission process was
  discovered in 1938. A _controlled_ _fusion_ process producing
  energy is still under development, and in 1994 a hot
  fusion reaction was achieved that lasted for 1 sec. An
  apparatus needed to contain and sustain such reactions
  is wery difficult to construct. The cold fusion process
  is very questionable, even today, but experiments are being
  conducted. (The atomic bomb is first fission, and then
  fusion at very high temperatures, created by the fission.)
  Maybe it's a little bit early to mention 'fusion reactor of
  sorts' way back in the late forties, or early fifties?
  This _might_ indicate that this reporter is not so well
  informed, or doesn't understands so much, about what
  he's/she's writing(?) (Or, maybe he/she can look into the
  future?)

* Isn't a 'fusion reactor' a fuel system? And, that should
  be a part of a _motor_ system? (But, not necessarily a
  _rotating_ engine/motor.)

* I cannot find any date of issue for this report; that's
  fairly unusual(?)

* Nothing about any department or company either.

* Who's the person responsible for the report?

* What's the reporter's profession/rank?

* What is an 'escape cylinder'? Did thay have enogh time to
  use such a, possibly spare, 'cylinder'? How come the aliens
  couldn't avoid collisions in the air, when having such -
  apparently - advanced tech. available? Didn't they have radar?
  An alien navigational error? (This seems to be a more or less
  human type of error.)

* Should the craft travel outside the atmosphere, some heat
  shielding would be needed, and - being properly designed - the
  five 'aliens' shouldn't be suffering from 'heat suffication'
  (provided the capsule(s) was (were) completely intact during
  the escape). (It seems that one capsule - carrying the three
  others, from the second disc - was lost.)

* And, the lack of exhaust doesn't make sence, since the
  reaction or heated gases/wapours from any propulsion system
  have to escape somewhere...
  (Any oxygene is carried on board; either as a chemical
  compound of a solid propellant system, or separately, as a
  liquid.) (Well, the disc might be an anti-gravity device.)

* This group (or, this reporter) didn't know of the Project
  Silver Bug, because in the present report 'they' conclude
  that it's a 'circular planform' aircraft of _interplanetary
  nature_.

* Due to the merging of three radar targets, the report
  suggests a collision between one (Bell) 'X-plane', i.e.,

http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/History/X_1.html ,

  and TWO UFOs! UFOs having a 'circular planform' should be
  more difficult to observe on the radar screen, due to the
  general stealthy charachteristics of discus shapes, i.e.,
  check out this URL:

http://unmuseum.mus.pa.us/realsauc.htm

  To me, this would sound more like a 'kamikaze' attack by TWO
  UFOs - a very rare event!

* The whole report seems too unstructured and 'messy'; what
  have the disappearence of Spanish soldiers got to do with the
  US national security? Further, the Annexes are not referred to
  from the 'main report'; neither from the Table of Contents.

* The consensus reached was apparently that _until_ positive
  proof that the Russians did not attempt a series of
  reconnaissance flights, the sightings and recovered objects
  were interplanetary in nature. Still, they have concluded
  somewhere else (page 8) that the aircraft were of
  'interplanetary nature'.

* Further, it seems today that the American, European, Japanese
  Chinese or Russian space industry haven't learned much as
  regards propulsion systems - at least not from ETs -
  because today we're still using the same rocket motor
  propulsion as the Chinese did a thousand year ago in their
  solid propellant (or, gunpowder) rocket _motors_! (The
  booster _motors_ used today are fueled by solid propellants.)

With regards to the Roswell, N.M., incident, I think we should
rely more upon the interpretations from the Ramey photo
interpretation group than this report. (By the way, the report
doesn't mention the name Roswell at all! Only Corona and Oscura
Peak.)

My comments above indicate that the report might be a hoax, i.e.,
one should take this report with a (couple of) pound(s) of salt...


Best Regards,

AWS






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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:22:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:42:59 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:02:29 -0600 (CST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

<snip>

>I appreciate all the hard, volunteer work Neil has put in on the
>interpretation of the Ramey message. I look forward to the day
>when expert photogrammetric analysis may be able to give us an
>unambiguous reading of same. At the same time, I think some of
>his comments in regard to retroviruses may leave a wrong
>impression on some readers. His basic facts aren't in dispute --
>it's the way that they're worded that I questioned.

>One gnat's opinion.

>Dennis


I must repeat that we are dealing with a number of different
documents. The truth or falsity of one does not determine the
truth or falsity of another one. Each must be taken on its own
merits as with each UFO sighting or each abduction report, or
each UFO photograph. That is why there are inspection procedures
at manufacturing plants..

One lemon does not a bushel of lemons make.

Stan Friedman






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                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:05:37 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:04:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 22:59:58 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Abductions: Return to the Herd


<snip>


>Obviously, we know they do exist. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure
>that THEY know we know. You know?


Hey Roger,

Maybe they only know what Phil Klass believes. I'd be surprised
if even THEY believe they exist after listening to him!

Greg







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                          Re: The Goldwater Letters

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:57:01 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:31:06 -0500
Subject: Re: The Goldwater Letters



>Date:08 Dec 1998 20:43:00 CET
>From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com>
>Subject: The Goldwater Letters
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>  *Information From The International Roswell Initiative,
>Germany*
>          ************************************************


Joachim,

In re your Goldwater letters... I think it is important that the
Internet now permits folks world wide to confront these matters
and the US Govt. has so much less control... That is why I went
international with the RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team)
"Roswell Revisitation" project out the gate... We keep all the
findings scattered among members and associates -- from
Australia to the former USSR -- and also posted on the web. So
there is no way the US Govt. can swoop down on us and confiscate
it. There cannot be another Watergate Break-in attempt!

Bottom line: I think that if we pool our knowledge and efforts
internationally the US Govt. will be virtually powerless to
subvert our efforts! And besides they have their hands full now
dealing with the antics of Saddam! Who poses a much _greater _
political threat!

My plan is to keep drumming the chant: "Unlock the Roswell
Garage! Let us SEE/EXAMINE the craft! Then we all can move on
with our lives!"






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                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:05:37 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:34:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


In a message dated 98-12-10 09:34:35 EST, you write:

>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 22:59:58 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Abductions: Return to the Herd

<snip>

>Obviously, we know they do exist. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure
>that THEY know we know. You know?

Hey Roger,

Maybe they only know what Phil Klass believes. I'd be surprised
if even THEY believe they exist after listening to him!

Greg








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                  Re: New MJ-12 documents - Project Kairos

From: Laurent Thiebaud <haurrio@ifrance.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:35:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:16:38 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 documents - Project Kairos

Does someone have the e-mail =E0 the webmaster of the website
thewordistruth.org so I've begun to translate it into French but
I don't know whether I may or not...

Is there somewhere on the Net these documents in the .TXT format?
I can't understand them in PDF format..





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                           Filer's Files #49-1998

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:50:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:50:33 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #49-1998





Source: http://ufoinfo.com/filer/1998/ff_4998.html


Filer's Files #49-1998
MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer: MUFON Eastern Director,
December 10, 1998
Majorstar@aol.com (609) 654-0020


     Filer's Files: sponsored by Global Force Ltd

AIR FORCE ACADEMY FUTURE OFFICERS
TAUGHT ABOUT ALIENS

In the former Physics Academy textbook, the last chapter is
entitled, "Unidentified Flying Objects." It states "From
available information, the UFO phenomenon appears to have
been global in nature for almost 50,000 years. . . .This leaves
us with the unpleasant possibility of alien visitors to our planet
or at least alien controlled UFOs. ...what questionable data
their are appears suggest the existence of at least three and
maybe four different groups of aliens. Editor's Note: This
textbook implies the government has hard evidence of UFO's,
knows it cannot do anything about them, and, rather than
admit that they cannot protect us from them, they deny they
exist. This may be a realistic approach under the
circumstances.

NEW JERSEY

William Potter and son reported to New York's MUFON
Director Dana Schmidt that: My son and I witnessed four
objects in the sky from 8:15 to 8:45 PM on December 4,
1998. They could have been about 70,000 feet high and
moving about 4,000 miles an hour. We live near Newark
Airport, which enabled us to make an estimate on the height
and speed, by watching incoming jets. We saw them twice.
The first time we saw four circular lights, the two in the middle
were crisscrossing and playing with each other. The two on
the outside were jolting back and forth and all were moving
rapidly. They came zipping by again 15 minutes later. This
time they sped past side by side. Each occurrence lasted
only several seconds. We thought it was pretty amazing.
Thanks to WPotterjr@aol.com and Dana Schmidt.

PENNSYLVANIA

WASHINGTON COUNTY -- Stan Gordon reports a large
triangular object was reported by motorists October 20, 1998.
A woman and a young child were driving through a rural area
when they noticed what looked like a large amber star. The
"star" crossed over the road in front of them and moved to
their left. The woman pulled her car over and put her glasses
on to observe the light better. When she turned on a light in
the car, the object moved off displaying various colored lights.
A short distance down the road, they again observed a large
amber light. The driver pulled the car over again. She had a
small camera and took two shots that seemed to cause the
amber light split into two silver balls. They "began dancing
around, one leaping in an arc over the other." The spheres
moved to the left and over the horizon.

ARMSTRONG COUNTY--On October 30, 1998, a Ford City
person was outside when he noticed a bright orange ball of
light. During the observation, the light moved straight across
the sky from the north. It then shot straight up and continued
moving. Then the light stopped, and went straight down. He
ran inside and awoke his wife to come outside to look. His
wife told me it was unlike anything she had seen before and
that the object was much brighter and bigger than the stars.
The light moved across the sky then stop. "Then it just took off
faster than anything I ever saw. It left a streak of light in the sky
after 3 minutes."

WESTMORELAND COUNTY--On November 11, 1998, a
witness observed a white fireball with a tail moving from west
at 9:30 PM between Greensburg and Jeannette. Debris and
white sparks were falling as the object passed over for
several seconds. On November 15, a Youngstown resident
sighted a UFO along the Chestnut Ridge at 8:15 PM. Several
people saw a bright orange fireball with an orange tail moving
east in the direction of Ligonier.

ALLEGHENY COUNTY=97On November 16, 1998, the
National UFO Reporting Center reported a UFO sighting at
Penn Hills. A motorist observed four objects over about a 10
to 15 minute period. The objects were at a low altitude and
square shaped. It displayed red flashing lights and three
round lights. One object hovered close to the witness before
moving off without making any sound. On November 24,
1998, a Wilmerding man while driving and looking towards
the southwest noticed two contrails in the sky that crossed like
an X. He pulled his car over at about 3:00 PM after noticing a
silver-gray object with a fuselage like a helicopter. It rose
straight up from below the contrails, and moved quickly
upwards through the sky above them. It then shot straight
down through the contrails and then it was gone.

LEHIGH COUNTY=97On November 22, 1998, Allentown
through the National UFO Reporting Center a daylight
observation by a family was reported. The family saw five
silver disc-shaped objects moving at a high rate of speed
from west to east. The observation lasted about 25 seconds.
Thanks to Stan Gordon, paufo@westol.com for the
Pennsylvania reports.

DELAWARE UFOs

SUSSEX COUNTY--On December 1, 1998, started out in a
routine manner for Dan Gafney, the popular talk-show host on
radio station WGMD, 92.7 FM, in Rehoboth Beach,
Delaware. But at 7:00 AM, the telephone rang and the first
caller reported a UFO. According to Gafney, before the show
ended, he had received "over 50 calls" from listeners
throughout Sussex County reporting unidentified flying
objects. The UFOs were seen on Monday night, November
30, 1998, "all over southern Delaware." Gafney said, callers
described "a bright blue/white light also some said green."
The UFOs were described as "large and round." "People are
still talking about it," he added. UFOs were seen over a large
area between Milford to Bethany Beach. One man reported
"what appeared to be a large blue light that was moving all
over erratically," adding that "the smaller lights appeared to
be coming from the larger lights. Another caller reported
seeing "a strange blue-green rain that was coming down from
them." Local researcher Jane Segal received a phone call
from friends saying that, during the WGMD broadcast,
"fighters were flying all over the region. Gray planes were
flying low as far north as Middletown near the Pennsylvania
State line. Thanks to Dan Gafney and Jane Segal and UFO
Roundup Vol. 3 #49 on 12/7/98 Editor: Joseph Trainor

SOUTH CAROLINA POSSIBLE ABDUCTIONS BY
TRIANGLE UFO

CHESTER -- Joe Hosey of The Herald Rock Hill published
on December 7, 1998, states: Photograph brings back
memories of alien sighting. Hours after strange lights hovered
above her back yard in November, Carla Alford stared at a
face from her past -- a frightening face she found hidden in a
Polaroid photograph taken more than a year before. She
thinks it's the face of an extraterrestrial. "All that scares me
are the eyes," Alford, 24, said. "The eyes are so big." They're
eyes Alford says she has seen before -- on a figure standing
in the door of a spaceship 21 years ago. "When I was 3 and I
was living in Rock Hill, I was crossing the road from my
grandma's house to my aunt's house," Alford said, recalling
how she cut through a field in Lesslie one night long ago. "All I
can remember is stairs and a big head, and it was going like
this," she murmured, crooking her index finger and beckoning
with it. "I started screaming then. That's all I remember." Alford
is not alone in her experiences and apprehensions. From
1947 to 1969, the Air Force checked out about 12,000
reports of UFO sightings. Today, the National UFO Reporting
Center has a database tracking UFO reports as long ago as
1954. It reports 639 sightings this year, 12 of which were in
South Carolina. Alford's mother, Wanda, recalled her
daughter's reaction to what she saw as a child. "She was
screaming her head off," Wanda Alford said. "I asked her
what it looked like -- she said it had big eyes." The lights
floating above Alford's Grants Lake Circle home returned
again in the evenings after she found the alien in the picture.
Her brother, Donnie, also has seen them. "It was weird," he
said. "It was in the shape of like a triangle, and it was a green
light." "It went straight across," he said. "It was much faster
than a plane." Air Traffic Controller Jim Koon reported no
record of anything unusual flitting about Chester around the
time of Alford's first sighting following the appearance of the
spaceman in the photograph. He conceded, however, that
peculiar craft can elude detection. "Air traffic radars filter out
things they're not designed to track," he explained, noting
non-moving objects such as buildings and other "clutter" slip
past the radar's sweep without being seen. "There's
conceivably something out there that we didn't track," he said.
If "something" is out there, it has been shadowing Alford for
nearly her entire life. Now Alford spends sleepless nights and
tearful days trying not to think about why the extraterrestrials
have returned. "I want to move out of this house," she said.
"I'm scared." Thanks to The Herald Rock Hill,
http://www.heraldonline.com/localnews/story/
Copyright =A9 1998

GEORGIA

KENNESAW -- On December 5, 1998, the night supervisor
of a local health care facility paged me and stated that about
1:00 AM several employees had observed unusual lights in
the clouds overhead. She went out to look and observed 4 to
6 bright white lights circling in partial cloud cover overhead.
She thought they might be from a grand opening spotlight but
there was none. The lights were white, round, and about the
size of a basketball held at arm=92s length. They were moving
fast and would come together, separate and continue to
circle. She stated that all the TVs in the facility went out during
this period. A call to the local police found no other reports of
unusual lights. However, the Desk Sergeant stated that
several transformers had blown out around the city, and traffic
lights were out. MUFON GA's Carl and Helen Thim are
investigating.

DOUGLASVILLE/HIRAM-- On December 4, 1998, MUFON
GA's William Lester and David Brown interviewed the
witnesses that have been reporting the anomalous lights or
objects and a triangle. The witnesses' observations had been
made every night since November 28. After conducting their
interviews, Lester and Brown remained on site to survey the
area. During this time they observed the same type of activity
described by the witnesses. These included: A-- Cone
shaped object, blue on top and yellowish on bottom, moving
quickly out of the field of vision of a telescope within 5
seconds. B-- Round object with a blue coloration rotating
around a black core. C-- Glowing red object transiting the sky
from horizon to horizon. A skywatch with video cameras is
being planned for this area in the near future. Lester and
Brown are compiling detailed reports of these events and the
above info is just preliminary.

ATLANTA--On November 17, 1998, about 1:00 AM, a local
beverage delivery driver was turning onto Highway 92 from
South Fulton Parkway just southwest of College Park. He
observed a large hovering object about 30 feet above the tree
tops next to the roadway. It was partially obscured by the fog,
but close enough that he could tell it was a distinct hovering
object at least the 70 feet long and thick vehicle. It had a red
light on top, green on the sides, and white on the bottom,
about 50 total non-blinking. His initial thought was a new cell
phone tower, but there were none. A truck driver also seemed
to be looking at the UFO.

LAWRENCEVILLE -- During recent weeks, MUFON GA's
David Brown of Norcross has observed unusual light
configurations in the skies. On December 4, 1998, at about
4:25 AM, he was returning from Snellville by way of Arcado
and Killian Road. The weather was mild and clear except for
some patchy areas of low fog. While driving he noticed a
bright light approaching from the distance, traveling toward
the southeast. He stopped at a traffic light and the UFO
traveled overhead at about 150 feet. David saw the object
was diamond shaped with a white light on each point with a
larger red turning light in the center. It moved at an estimated
speed of 30-35 mph and was silent. It appeared to be about
the size of a pack of cigarettes held at arm=92s length and
estimated its true size of a compact car. He maneuvered to
keep it in sight and retrieved binoculars for a closer look. No
further details could be made out under magnification.
David's background in aviation and archaeology make him a
good witness. A similar size diamond shaped craft was
reported in Alpharetta on November 18. Dobbins Air Base is
in nearby Marietta, a recent conversation with authorities
there about these events proved less than enlightening.
Thanks to MUFON State Director Tom Sheets.

FLORIDA

MIAMI BEACH -- Mary Margaret Zimmer reports that I
received reports of at least three people who saw objects
moving erratically. They were pulsating blue, green white, red,
and yellow lights and "throwing" lights off of themselves on
November 30, 1998. A number of people saw a light in the
sky that expanded and contracted and at times appeared
translucent. A blue circular flame seemed to surround it. A
video was taken from WTVJ's "Tower Cam" facing east and
shown on Channel 6 on December 1, 1998.

MARGATE/HOLLYWOOD=97November 29, 1998, in an
apparently different sighting a blue light was reported to radio
station Y-100, that had many calls and broadcast hourly
updates.

TAMPA -- November 17, 1998, at about 4:30 AM a flying V
was spotted by numerous people on the night of the meteor
shower. It was described as being about 500 feet wide,
traveling very fast at about 10,000 feet. "It looked almost as if
it were translucent and made absolutely no sound," said one
witness who took photos of the craft. It had no lights on it and
it would not have been seen if so many people had not been
watching the meteor shower that night. Thanks to Jason
Overholser and Mary M. Zimmer
http://www.elink.net/mmz/skyscan.htm

TEXAS

VAN HORN -- J.W. Ronshausen reports he was part of a
group of eight men who were hunting Mule Deer in the desert
thirty miles west of Van Horn. At 7:00 PM on December 5,
1998, we noticed a victrola shaped white cloud in the
southwestern sky. A tiny white light was at the head of the
object. All eight of us watched with binoculars the cone
shaped object and belled out at the big end. The cloud looked
like charged particles. There were no clouds in the sky at all
at the time of the sighting, there are no lights in the area. We
estimated the cloud was 25 miles or more away that would
put it just across the border into Mexico. Phone
512-990-9921, 2215 Terradyne, Pflugerville, TX 78660. We
have had in the past reports of "cloud" like UFOs; in
September in LaGrange, Georgia. Thanks to John C.
Thompson.

MEXICO

LAKE CHAPALA -- Jalisco Karen Herrtwich reports that on
December 5, 1998, Karen Herrtwich at 7:00 PM a large
bright light (white) with smoky trail, not moving fast (west to
north/east), then the light got smaller then disappeared. Many
people in this area saw the unknown light. There were no
sounds and the sky was clear! Thanks to ISUR and Karen
Herrtwich ssauto@laguna.com.mx, (376) 54800 Lake
Chapala, Jalisco, Mexico. Editors Note: Numerous UFO
reports have been recorded over the last couple years. Air
traffic controllers at the main airport in Mexico City, who are
equipped with advanced radar equipment, report they
received a radar echo from a spherical green light moving
close to an airliner on approach, and which was being
observed by the plane's pilots and ground staff.

UNITED KINGDOM

EDMONTON -- On November 17, 1998, north of London a
triangular shaped craft was sighted flowing low over just after
midnight. Observers of the Leonid meteor shower reported
seeing a low flying craft with triangular shape. There were a
dozen amber lights coming from the craft that appeared to
flying at a high altitude.

THE MYSTERY OF THE MISSING ROSWELL
DEBRIS

General Exon told investigators that some where in the
buildings at Wright Patterson Air Force Base the debris was
tested and may still be housed. It is unlikely the Air Force will
show us what crashed, so we are stuck with examining the
last known photographs taken in General Ramey=92s office on
July 8, 1947. The world was amazed when Roswell Base
Commander Colonel Blanchard and his intelligence officer,
Major Marcel announced to the world that the Army Air Force
had captured a flying saucer early in the day. Major Marcel
and some of the debris was flown at high speed to Eighth Air
Force Headquarters in Fort Worth, Texas for examination.
James Bond Johnson was ordered by his Fort Worth Star
Newspaper to cover the story. Bond raced to the General's
office and helped Colonel Dubose unwrap the debris. When
General Ramey clutching a message arrived 15 minutes later,
Bond took several photographs of the debris with the
General, Colonel Dubose, and Major Marcel. Several hours
later, Weather Officer Irving Newton was ordered to rush to
General Ramey=92s office and identify the debris. Irving testifies
that the General told him to get to his office immediately, and
if he didn't have a car he was ordered to take the first one with
a key in it. This infers there was still a question on the identity
of the debris. Weather officer Newton was introduced to the
higher ranking Major Marcel who kept on telling him the
writing on the beams was alien. More photos were taken by
an unknown photographer of the debris and Warrant Officer
Irving Newton. Now in effect the world waited for his decision.
A comparatively low ranking Warrant Officer would make the
critical identification of the debris. Newton examined the
evidence as the world waited and stated simply it was a
weather balloon and a RAWIN reflector. But wait, the photos
of the debris taken earlier in the day appears different from
the debris taken in Newton's photos. Almost a third to a half of
the critical debris is missing. What happened to the wider
beams and materials that do not to meet the specifications of
the RAWIN reflector? Why was so much of the debris
missing? This is the only evidence we have and the evidence
has been tampered with and some has been removed. I
should point out, it is possible that the photo is cropped in
such a way that the bulk of the material was pushed away
from the camera. Most of the debris seems to be in its same
place, but key material is missing. Could parts of the missing
craft be mixed with a relatively mundane RAWIN radar
reflector? Attached is a comparison of the debris with
Newton's knee showing and the earlier photos taken by Dr. J.
Bond Johnson.

University of Manchester physicist Neil Morris writes, "At first
the photographs taken in General Ramey=92s appear to be a
RAWIN Radar target reflector until you look a little closer. In
the original radar reflector specifications the support
"beam/sticks struts for the foil backed reflectors were shown
as being wooden (balsa) and of square section. Square,
rectangular and "I" sections can all be found in the
photographs, some of these are also found to be "hollow"
sections. These are NOT in the specifications for the radar
assemblies. One other feature places at least some of the
debris outside the specification of radar reflectors, that is the
point that a number of the beam structures show surface
markings in the form of characters. Website at:
http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/download/index.htm.

The key to this case is the interpretation of the debris and
message. Stan Friedman is offering a CD of the debris and
message for $25.00. You can review the CD and decide for
yourself by e-mailing Stan at: fsphys@brunnet.net.

GET THE BEST AND HELP UFO RESEARCH, IT
COULD SAVE YOU MONEY

As a special aid to our readers, we can help you obtain the
best real estate experts in your area at no cost to you. Make
sure you have a top notch agent, to buy or sell your home
often your biggest investment. We provide free relocation
information and consulting services from the largest and most
respected firms. If you=92re planning to sell or buy a home and
would like a top flight real estate agent give me a call at 609
654-0020 or E-mail me at Majorstar@aol.com. Please
send your name, phone number, address, price range and
location to move.

MUFON JOURNAL For more detailed investigative reports
subscribe by writing to 103 Oldtowne Road, Sequin, TX
78155-4099 or e-mail Mufon@aol.com.

Filer's Files Copyright 1998 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post items from the Files on
their Websites or in newsgroups provided that they
credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the
date of issue that the item appeared.

A search engine for Filer's Files can be found at
http://www.ufoinfo.com/filer/1998/ff_2198.html.

Send your letters to George A. Filer at Majorstar@aol.com.
If you wish to keep your name confidential please so state.






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                Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...]

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:27:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:24:19 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...]


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:47:00 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...]

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...]
>>Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:41:15 -0500


>Send me cash, not check or money order, for $0.25 American for
>each gallon, and I will ship the product free of charge.  I have
>the international marketing rights to Gesundt's Freshly made
>wines and otherworld spirits.  I will sell no wine, until it's
>ready!

Dr Gesundt,

Please send 10 000 gallons of your wine to the following
address:

Waponi Woo Island
South Pacific

Can you add orange taste to the mixture? (I'll pay for the
supplement)

And, ahem, this is a little embarrassing, but I am a little short
right now.  Could you put this on my bill?

;|






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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 98 10:34:13 PST
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:27:22 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 23:20:15 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

>>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>>Date: Tues, 8 Dec 1998 00:25:46 -0500

>>>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 18:48:41 -0500
>>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

>>Instead you further abuse us with generalized implication and
>>vague conjecture.  I would be apprehensive of the tenor of your
>>response if someone was to ask you what color the daylight sky
>>is.  I have a growing suspicion that some agency has highjacked
>>Gary Alevy's electronic identity and turned it over to some
>>cyber obsfuscation algorithym...

>>Bye...  Ted..

>Ted,

>Now, can you respond on the following issues I most seriously
>raise and request be answered for the readers of this list.
>These are the questions listed in the following sections
>regarding:

>  I.   The IUR
>  II.  CUFOs and
>  III. Hynek's academic achievements.

>I dare say that many readers will be waiting for your answers
>to the items listed below. As you and Jerry seem to be the chief
>defenders of and apologists for Dr. Hynek and Sherm Larsen I
>expect you will be responding; however, anyone else with
>pertinent information is respectfully requested to join in.

What Gary is doing, you will notice, is simply changing the
subject.  Unable to respond in any sensible manner to Ted and
me, "chief defenders of and apologists for Dr. Hynek and Sherm
Larsen," he brings up a whole other matter -- just how effective
Hynek was in changing entrenched scientific opinion on UFOs --
and implies (as I understand his argument) that Hynek's
inability to change the world tells us that he was some sort of
secret government agent.

It is, of course, entirely reasonable to discuss why Hynek
failed in his stated task to alter scientific opposition to UFO
research.  It is not a simple subject, and none of it requires
the sort of conspiratorial thinking to which Gary is so
touchingly devoted.

From a macrocosmic perspective it requires an understanding of
science's traditional hostility to radical, extraordinary claims
of all sorts, even when championed by individual scientists of
credentials as impeccable as Hynek's. (I think here of
scientists who have favored parapsychology and cryptozoology, as
unsuccessfully as Hynek lobbied for ufology.)  On the
microcosmic level we can look at Hynek's strategies and even his
personality.  Should, for example, he have been as aggressive
and confrontational as McDonald was?  Could Allen -- given the
sort of personality he had -- _have_ behaved aggressively and
confrontationally even if he had wanted to?  And another
question: how effective -- given McDonald's failure to change
entrenched opinion -- would that sort of behavior (practiced by
McDonald) have been?

Moreover, let's ask the same sorts of questions Gary asks about
Hynek, his achievements, his publications, and the like and
apply them to somebody whom so far Gary has not accused of being
part of the conspiracy, namely James E. McDonald.  The questions
apply just as easily to McDonald as to Hynek, the two principal
scientists to challenge scientific orthodoxy regarding the UFO
phenomenon.

Finally, it must be asked how much ufology can accomplish given
the paucity of resources.  Allen drove  himself to distraction
trying to secure funding for CUFOS.  That's a story in itself,
and a sad, frustrating one.

All subjects for productive discussion, and none dependent on
baseless, paranoid speculations.






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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:48:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:30:42 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 23:20:15 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

>>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>>Date: Tues, 8 Dec 1998 00:25:46 -0500


>Now, can you respond on the following issues I most seriously
>raise and request be answered for the readers of this list.
>These are the questions listed in the following sections
>regarding:

>  I.   The IUR
>  II.  CUFOs and
>  III. Hynek's academic achievements.

>I dare say that many readers will be waiting for your answers
>to the items listed below. As you and Jerry seem to be the chief
>defenders of and apologists for Dr. Hynek and Sherm Larsen I
>expect you will be responding; however, anyone else with
>pertinent information is respectfully requested to join in.

Gary,

You are asking questions that are so good that I suggest the
following:

Take any text-editor with find and replace features and try:

Find:          Hynek
Replace with:  Any Ufologist

Do the same with:

Find:          CUFOS
Replace with:  Any UFO research group

Do the same with:

Find:          IUF
Replace with:  Any UFO review you know

Re-read your text: it should be right on most counts.

Let's use the following snip and change Hynek for Alevy (why
not?):

>Let's see where Dr. Alevy might rank.

>I invite list readers to check the list below and would
>appreciate the contribution of any list members who can help
>supply the answers.  And don't waste everyone's time providing
>citations without checkable references!

>Let's answer the following in detail:

> 1) Number of publications in refereed journals as principal author.

> 2) Number of publications in refereed journals as co-author.

> 3) Rank/quality of journals in which articles were published,
>    especially those where the researcher was the principal author.

> 4) Number of times researcher is cited by colleagues in other
>    refereed journals -- mainstream separate from ufo journals.

> 5) Number of Ph.D. graduate students produced by this researcher
>    in astronomy and/or UFO studies, listed separately.

> 6) Amount of outright grant money of all types brought in
>    as a result of the efforts of the researcher.

> 7) Quality of the individual's skills as a instructor.

> 8) Quality of the school from which he got his Ph.D. and
>    who his advisers were.

> 9) What has the organization that he founded done
>    to advance the study of and recognition of the UFO
>    outside of the field of ufology?


Should we follow with the corollary questions?

Can these questions help evaluate the work of any individual?

Hardly, I presume.

Serge Salvaille





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                   MUFON SA and Cynthia Hind/UFO AFRINEWS

From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:19:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:34:06 -0500
Subject: MUFON SA and Cynthia Hind/UFO AFRINEWS


Dear Errol and List,

There have been recently been requests for the e-mail address of
Cynthis Hind and thanks to the assistance of Tinus de Beer from
MUFON SA I have managed to make contact with her.

Contact details for MUFON SA and Cynthia Hind/UFO AFRINEWS
follow:


MUFON SA
P.O. Box 74456
Lynnwoodridge
Pretoria
South Africa
0040

Hotline: 088-094-0903 (24-hour answering machine)
E-Mail: mufon-sa@icon.co.za



UFO AFRINEWS
P.O. Box MP 49
Mount Pleasant
Harare
Zimbabwe

UFO AFRINEWS is edited by Cynthia Hind and covers mostly
southern Africa in an A-5 format with approximately 42 pages of
content.

There are personal investigations with small groups of people
who have expertise in one way or another, and also from persons
based in different parts of Africa who report to the editor.

There is also Astronomy, an 'Out of Africa' section on an
important case elsewhere, Book reviews, Editorial on
controversial matters dealing with UFOs, letters to the Editor
and follow-ups on older cases, a factor which is always
stressed. Although Cynthia is not sceptical of UFOs, she is also
not overly gullible and is very careful to check each case out
as thoroughly as she and her helpers can. The Assistant Editor
is Maria Sullivan, who worked for Longman, Zimbabwe for several
years on proof reading and book presentation.

UFO AFRINEWS is published bi-annually, in January and July. The
cost is =A32, US$6 and R10, inclusive of postage. The postage to
the USA is extremely high.


Best wishes,



John Hayes

jhayes@cableinet.co.uk
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com
UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/
Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/
UFOICQ Australian UFO Reports and Experiences:-
        http://ufoinfo.com/ufoicq/





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   Dec > Dec 11

                         C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

From: Karl T. Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:22:13 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:37:12 -0500
Subject: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting


Greetings List Folks --

Prof. Moore and four U.S. Navy enlisted men made their sighting
on 24 April 1949, not 28 April.  According to Moore's official
report, he and his team had launched a balloon at 1020 Mountain
Standard Time, and the UFO was sighted moments later.






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                              No Alien Landing

From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:26:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:39:58 -0500
Subject: No Alien Landing


Dear Errol,

The following appeared in the uk.rec.ufo newsgroup:


From: "harvest" <harvest@harvest-trust.org>
Newsgroups: uk.rec.ufo
Subject: No Alien Landing
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:13:33 -0700


EQ-Pegasi - No Alien Landing

by William Cooper

=A9 Copyright 1998 by Harvest Trust All Rights Reserved

CAJI News Service - December 8, 1998 - Exclusive - December 7th
has come and gone with no alien spaceship in sight. The
EQ-Pegasi extraterrestrial landing in Arizona, and etc., etc.,
stirred the less thinking and more impressionable members of our
population. A great many trekked to Sedona, Arizona for a party
in celebration of an event that was guaranteed would never
happen. Art Bell, Richard Hoagland, and Peter Gersten have
legitimized uFOOLogy as the term best describing the carnival
hype used to whip the ET believing sheople into searing
millenium fever.

Most victims in Bell's audience have already forgotten and
forgiven. The fanatic followers of the nightly magical fantasy
farce conducted by Art Bell and his never ending guest list of
escaped mental patient con artists continues.

Another hoax will begin within a few days. True to its nature,
Bell's audience will embrace it, milking it for every drop of
adrenaline they can get. It is their Art Bell infusion and they
desperately need it like addicts need heroin.

Non of it would be important if Bell's audience understood what
they hear is fantasy, and if Bell made any attempt to clarify
that fact. But they do not, and Bell does not, and therein lies
the rub. Bell builds the fantasy and promotes the hoax better
than any circus barker I have ever known. P.T. Barnum would have
marveled at how easily Bell lures the suckers Barnum claimed
were born every minute, a claim that appears to be true.

I cannot wait to see what magnificent fairytale the sheople will
swallow next proving once again that the Illuminati were right
when they made the following observation on what Karl Marx
called "the masses": "A nation or world of people who will not
use their intelligence are no better than animals which have no
intelligence. Such people are beasts of burden and steaks on the
table by choice and consent."

For more information and news go to: http://harvest-trust.org
[END FORWARDED MESSAGE]

I have not visited the above website.

Best wishes,


John Hayes

jhayes@cableinet.co.uk
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com
UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/
Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/
UFOICQ Australian UFO Reports and Experiences:-
        http://ufoinfo.com/ufoicq/







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                                BAR 199811-12

From: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:06:30 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:48:03 -0500
Subject: BAR 199811-12


Bufo Calvin
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA  94596
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Website: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufo
calvin<;/a>
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this
edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made
to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with
strangers before you e-mail them something.  If you forward this, please make
sure it is clear that you are forwarding it).

<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
<META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="Microsoft Word 97">
<TITLE>October, 1998 (Vol 1, #10)</TITLE>
<META NAME="Template" CONTENT="C:\PROGRAM FILES\MICROSOFT
OFFICE\OFFICE\html.dot">
</HEAD>


November-December (Vol. 1, #11)

Includes special GIFT SECTION!
Books mentioned in BAR can be ordered on most e-mail systems by clicking on
the hyperlink title. This will take you to the book at Amazon.com. You can
read more about it at that point and decide if you want to order it. If you
do, you add it to your "shopping cart". Then, if you want another title
mentioned here, please click on it in this post. If you have questions, please
e-mail Bufo at bufocalvin@aol.com. Books are also available by phone from
Greenleaf Publications at 1-800-905-UFOs (1-800-905-8367). If you call, please
be sure to tell them that Bufo sent you.
If you have books to recommend, please let me know. If you would like to be
named as recommending it, include that information as well and tell me you
would like to be cited.
FEATURED TITLE:
Cosmic Test Tube
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0963916122/bufosweirdworld">
Cosmic Test Tube</A>
Subtitle: Extraterrestrial Contact, Theories, and Evidence
by Randall Fitzgerald
Trade (large-size) Paperback, 395 pages
May, 1998
Illustrations, Extensive Bibliography, For Further Reading, Index

"You can't go shooting off your mouth about something as controversial as
this, can you, if you haven't done your homework."
FRANK SEARLE

As the speed of communication and the cheapness and range of rapid
distribution increases, the odds that someone will have done research to back
up an expressed opinion decrease. When putting out a book was a monumental
task, it was more likely that significant work would have gone into making
sure that it was a good one. Compare, for instance, an "instant book" on a
news story to something written ten years later.

Nothing illustrates this more clearly than the Internet. While radio talk
shows provide very rapid distribution (resulting in necessarily less informed
speakers), there is still some quality control exerted by the need to maintain
(or increase) a relatively limited audience. On the Net, the flow is global,
instant, and very inexpensive. The lack of what I call "ufological literacy"
is, therefore, not surprising. I don't know how often I've seen questions such
as these: "Why are only Caucasians abducted?"; "Why aren't UFOs seen over
large cities?"; "Why don't astronomers see UFOs?"

I don't blame people who ask questions like this. It is very difficult to be
well-read on a subject that has often been treated as ephemeral. Check
anyone's basic reading list on UFOs, and then try and get the books at the
library. While some attempts have been made to remedy this disappearing
documentation problem (notably, OPUS and the new Charles Fort Institute in
England), it remains nearly impossible to help newly-interested people avoid
having to reinvent the wheel.

That's why it is so nice to see a book like COSMIC TEST TUBE. Fitzgerald, a
Contributing Editor to READER'S DIGEST, provides synopses of over 150 books on
five topics: Ancient Astronauts; UFOs and UFO Occupants; Contactees and
Abductees; Debunkers and Skeptics; and Contacting Extraterrestrial
Intelligence. Most books are given about a page of summation. It's important
to note that this is not a READER'S DIGEST type book of extracts: these are
the author's summaries, not the original words.

Still, someone reading this will definitely have an advantage in understanding
UFOs. I have read many of the books listed, but still found it valuable to see
ones on similar topics juxtaposed. In some cases, you may see the same
incident described almost the same way in different listings. This appears to
be from them being written by the author right after they were read. Rather
than a distraction, I found that reassuring...that the work was done when the
memory was fresh. No inaccuracies jumped out at me. This book can be
considered Cliff Notes for the ufologist.

Fitzgerald also supplies his own opinions. While carefully keeping these out
of the summaries, it gives him an opportunity to express what will be seen as
largely skeptical opinions. For instance, he doesn't speak favorably of
Roswell or of cattle mutilations. Whether you agree with him or not will not
diminish the value of this book to you.

One last note: this is the first book I have seen from Moon Lake Media, and I
must compliment them on a refreshingly well proofread and put together book.
GIFT CATALOG
Welcome to the first annual Bufo's ANOMALIT REVIEW Gift Catalog!

While a gift page does exist at the Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Books website (
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/weirdware/books.html">Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Books
</A>), I hope to make this a timely feature each combined November-December
issue. The turn-around at Amazon tends to be very quick: you should have time
to e-mail these links to relatives and still get most of them J .

GENERAL WEIRD BOOKS (for more titles, see
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/Weirdware2/bwwb-weirdmisc.html">BWWB General
Weird</A>)
Loren Coleman, noted Fortean and author of several books, sends this
recommendation:
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1578590701/bufosweirdworld">
Unexplained (Clark, 2nd Edition)</A> (by Jerome Clark)
"Unexplained (2nd edition) is an extensively updated, completedly revised
version of Jerome Clark's earlier informative first edition. Filled with new
entries and different photographs, Unexplained is not a trick, but a treat;
it's like getting a whole new book from Clark. If it's not a bestseller, I'll
be shocked for it combines the explorations of curious topics for the novice
with some indepth analyses for the anomalies and Fortean audience. Highly
recommended."
I was quite impressed with the first edition and am looking forward to seeing
this one.

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486230945/bufosweirdworld">
The Complete Books of Charles Fort</A> (by Charles Fort: omnibus of four books
by the father of it all. This is not light reading, but I give it my highest
recommendation)

UFO BOOKS (for more than 100 more titles, see
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/Weirdware2/bwwb-ufo.html">BWWB UFO Items</A>)

Some Recent Hardbacks:
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0880642262/bufosweirdworld">
Alien Dawn</A> (by Colin Wilson: a noted occultist looks at the Contact
experience)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312193475/bufosweirdworld">
UFO Headquarters</A> (by Susan Wilson: an extensive examination of Area 51)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1852839244/bufosweirdworld">
Fifty Years of UFOs</A>(by John and Anne Spencer: A top British ufology team
gives us a history)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1858338581/bufosweirdworld">
The Soviet UFO Files</A> (by Paul Stonehill)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0871318563/bufosweirdworld">
Project Mindshift</A> (by Michael Mannion: has the American public been
conditioned to believe in extraterrestrials?)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573922137/bufosweirdworld">
UFO Sightings: The Evidence</A> (by Robert Shaeffer: skeptical)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879518782/bufosweirdworld">
The Uninvited (Pope)</A> (by Nick Pope: second book by former British Military
UFO expert)

Some Recent Paperbacks:
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1575663635/bufosweirdworld">
The Rainbow Conspiracy</A> (by Brad and Sherry Hansen Steiger...reprint)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1569247013/bufosweirdworld">
UFOs: The Secret History</A> (by Michael Hesseman, European ufologist)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0762101083/bufosweirdworld">
>From Other Worlds</A> (by Hilary Evans: written some terrific books in the
past)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1862043191/bufosweirdworld">
The Alien Files</A> (by Gregory Van Dyk: reprint)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1563841487/bufosweirdworld">
Alien Intervention: the Spritual Mission of UFOs</A> (by Paul Christopher)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1569246688/bufosweirdworld">
Left at East Gate</A> (by Larry Warren: first-hand account of events at
Bentwaters: reprint)

Selected Other Titles:
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0688092020/bufosweirdworldA/">
Above Top Secret</A> (by Timothy Good in 1987: Thick, well-documented, the
bible of the cover-up believers)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0964491702/bufosweirdworldA/">
Alien Discussions</A> (Proceedings of the abduction study conference held at
MIT)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1569247455/bufosweirdworldA/">
The Bible and Flying Saucers</A> (reprint of a classic from 1968 by Barry
Downing)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0380703882/bufosweirdworldA/">
Communion (paperback)</A> (by Whitley Strieber: truly frightening first person
bestseller)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1567311342/bufosweirdworldA/">
Incident at Exeter/The Interrupted Journey</A> (Omnibus reprint of two
classics: one on a "flap", the other the "first" famous abduction story. Both
by John Fuller)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0962653438/bufosweirdworldA/">
The Mothman Prophecies</A> (An amazing on-site investigation: includes Men-In-
Black, monsters, etc., by John Keel. A trans-genre masterpiece that will scare
you)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1578590299/bufosweirdworldA/">
The UFO Book (Clark)</A> (One of the best buys ever, 700 pages of
authoritative reference entries by Jerome Clark)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1883729025/bufosweirdworldA/">
Visitors From Time</A> (by Marc Davenport: A carefully-reasoned presentation
of the Time Travel Hypothesis)

CRYPTOZOOLOGY BOOKS (For more titles, see
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/Weirdware2/bwwb-cz-master.html">BWWB
Cryptozoology Items</A>)

Some Recent Titles:

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/087951860X/bufosweirdworld">
The Book of Sea Monsters</A> (by Bob Suckling, et al. Don't know much about
it)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/081725479X/bufosweirdworld">
Water Monsters (Unsolved Mysteries Series)</A> (by Brian Innes: may be for
kids, 48 pages)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0789429624/bufosweirdworld">
Beastly Tales: Yeti, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness Monster</A> (by Malcolm Yorke,
definitely for kids)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0609800175/bufosweirdworld">
Field Guide to North American Monsters</A> (by W. Haden Blackman: extensive,
but a bit flip)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1567182607/bufosweirdworld">
Mysteries of the Deep</A> (From FATE magazine: covers other topics as well)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0912608951/bufosweirdworld">
Phantom of the Pines: More Tales of the Jersey Devil</A> (by James F. McCloy
and Ray Miller: their second book on the topic)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0966013433/bufosweirdworld">
Everything You Know Is Wrong: Book One, Human Origins</A> (by Lloyd Pye: much
of the book is on hairy bipeds, the rest on alternative cosmology and the
connection)

Selected Other Titles:

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1555660991/bufosweirdworldA/">
Big Foot-Prints</A> (by Grover Krantz: the definitive scientific book on
sasquatch)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1883729068/bufosweirdworldA/">
El Chupacabras and Other Mysteries</A> (by Scott Corrales)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0252060318/bufosweirdworldA/">
The Enigma of Loch Ness</A> (by Henry Bauer: I consider the best overview of
the topic)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679406395/bufosweirdworld">
Monster of the Sea (Ellis)</A> (by Richard Ellis)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0888393350/bufosweirdworldA/">
Rumors of Existence</A> (by Matthew Bille: not on the big names of
cryptozoology)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1880090422/bufosweirdworldA/">
Story in the Snow: Encounters with the Sasquatch</A> (by Lunetta Woods: first
person continued encounters)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0888399871/bufosweirdworld">
Ogopogo</A> (by Arlene Gaal: about one of the Canadian lake monsters)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0710304986/bufosweirdworldA/">
On the Track of Unknown Animals</A> (by Bernard Heuvelmans: the one that
started it all, recently reprinted. A must have...)

Parapsychology BOOKS (for more titles, see
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/Weirdware2/bwwb-ps-master.html">BWWB
Parapsychology Items</A>)

Some Recent Titles:

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/096632580X/bufosweirdworld">A
View From the Other Side</A> (by Jane Robert & Mary Marecek: from the
author of the Seth material)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/157174102X/bufosweirdworld">
The Ultimate Time Machine</A> (by Joseph McMoneagle: about remote viewing)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0306459833/bufosweirdworld">
Lessons from the Light</A> (by Kenneth Ring, et al, on near-death experiences.
His research has been conducted scientifically: I may not always agree with
his conclusions, but thoroughly enjoy his books)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0609800213/bufosweirdworld">
The Field Guide to North American Hauntings</A> (by W. Haden Blackman)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0713727128/bufosweirdworld">
Paranormal People</A> (by Paul Chambers)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0425169081/bufosweirdworld">
One Last Time</A> (by John J. Edwards: making all the rounds, this is a medium
for the media. I've heard him: if he wasn't using confederates, he was very
impressive)

Selected Other Titles:

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=078640390X/bufosweirdworldA/">
Advances in Parapsychological Research (Vol 8)</A> (scholarly series)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1556432488/bufosweirdworld">
Channeling (Klimo, 2nd Ed.)</A> (by Jon Klimo: the definitive work, recently
updated)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0062515020/bufosweirdworldA/">
The Conscious Universe : The Scientific Truth of Psychic Phenomena</A> (by
Dean I. Radin)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=087975236X/bufosweirdworldA/">
Enigma of Daniel Home : Medium or Fraud</A> (by Trevor H. Hall)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1891724010/bufosweirdworld">
Faces at the Window</A> (by Paul F. Eno)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=006065337X/bufosweirdworldA/">
Hostage to the Devil : The Possession and Exorcism of Five Americans</A> (by
Malachi Martin)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1575660474/bufosweirdworldA/">
Mind over Matter</A> (by premier parapsychologist and renowned ghostbuster,
Loyd Auerbach)

The Fringe of the Fringe 1998

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0935699007/bufosweirdworld">
Peace at Last: the After-Death Experiences of John Lennon</A> (by John Lennon,
et al: channeled communications, I think)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0907768865/bufosweirdworld">I
Died on the Titanic</A> (by Monica O'Hara Keeton)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0963530658/bufosweirdworld">
The Mystery and Magic of Dolphins and Whales : Their Secrets for Living With
Wisdom, Harmony and Joy </A>(by Bobbie Sandoz)

Calendars, Videos, etc. (many more listed throughout
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/weirdware2/index.html">Bufo's WEIRD WORLD
Books</A>)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1556708041/bufosweirdworld">
1999 UFO Wall Calendar (Huneeus)</A>
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1567189598/bufosweirdworld">
1999 FATE's Crop Circle Wall Calendar</A>
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6303690106/bufosweirdworld">
Alien Autopsy: Fact or Fiction (VHS)</A> (the original)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6303996043/bufosweirdworld">
Kidnapped by UFOs (Nova) (VHS)</A> (highly controversial and skeptical)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6304406282/bufosweirdworld">
Mysterious Origins of Man Trilogy (VHS)</A> (hosted by Heston, big controversy
when these ran on TV)
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=6302450233/bufosweirdworldA/">
Practical Applications of ESP (VHS)</A> (by respected parapsychologist and
remote viewer Keith Harary)

____________________________
*Prices are set by Amazon.com. Clicking on the link will take you to their
current listing and show the current price.
____________________________

___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly
redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by
e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com.  You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to
Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if
there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t
he week before.





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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 11

                 Re: Pulsar Newsletter - Issue No. 2 Part 2

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:26:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:51:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Pulsar Newsletter - Issue No. 2  Part 2


Regarding...

>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:19:09 -0500
>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Pulsar Newsletter - Issue No. 2  Part 2


Almost inevitably, some text formatting didn't make it as
intended across the Atlantic - just to clarify, part of the text
should have read:

Even in the short sentence; "If such a crisis should occurr-in
government failure to defend and assure the public's trust, it
is the belief of the Joint Chiefs, that the following would
insue...", the words "occurr" and "insue" should be spelled
"occur" and "ensue" respectively.

Other glaring errors at first glance include:

finicial - should be financial
over-all - should be overall
accellerated - should be accelerated
reserach - should be research
eminent - should be imminent
recend - should be rescind
caliber - should be calibre
inter-active - should be interactive
colasped - should be collapsed
vectered - should be vectored
celestrial - should be celestial

and so on...
[End]


An html'd copy is now on-line at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/newslet2.htm



James.





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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 11

                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 21:47:06 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:57:46 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:53:42 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>Dennis,

>Your prompt reply to my challenge of your caustic criticism of
>Neil Morris is appreciated. Your explanation is direct, fair and
>statesmanlike. I will insure that Neil sees your statement. You
>would _not_T make a good bureaucrat: they seldom include in
>their vocabularies the word: "oops!"

>James Bond Johnson


Bond,

It appears that I'm going to have to seriously increase my
carrot intake, too. That, or get a larger monitor (or both).
I've just checked out the latest images posted by Neil on his
web site, and I'll be damned if I can see what he's talking
about half the time. The so-called "wire-harness," for example,
completely eludes me, but I'll keep trying!






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Dec > Dec 11

                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:07:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:03:07 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 23:20:15 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

>>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>>Date: Tues, 8 Dec 1998 00:25:46 -0500

>>Gary, thanks for making some effort to reply to my questions.
>>Still, you could have easily ventured to give us one single
>>substantial example of a specific act these men may have
>>committed.

> <snip>

>>Instead you further abuse us with generalized implication and
>>vague conjecture.  I would be apprehensive of the tenor of your
>>response if someone was to ask you what color the daylight sky
>>is.  I have a growing suspicion that some agency has highjacked
>>Gary Alevy's electronic identity and turned it over to some
>>cyber obsfuscation algorithym...

>>Bye...  Ted..

>Ted,

>Yes, the daylight sky is generally blue when cloudless and not
>filled with atmospheric dust except when it is overcast or
>cloudly and etc.

I am growing apprehensive...  True, I said I would no longer
write on this thread, but you spent some time on this before my
other message arrived...

>Now, can you respond on the following issues I most seriously
>raise and request be answered for the readers of this list.
>These are the questions listed in the following sections
>regarding:

>  I.   The IUR
>  II.  CUFOs and
>  III. Hynek's academic achievements.

>I dare say that many readers will be waiting for your answers
>to the items listed below. As you and Jerry seem to be the chief
>defenders of and apologists for Dr. Hynek and Sherm Larsen I
>expect you will be responding; however, anyone else with
>pertinent information is respectfully requested to join in.

>I have looked at J. Allen Hynek's body of work and quite frankly
>I don't think it's very impressive.

>I think that James E. McDonald's paper delivered at the AAAS
>1969 meeting is the best piece in the UFO field I have ever
>seen.  Nothing written by Hynek even comes close.

Whoowee, we agree on something.  McDonald was probably a more
insightful UFO investigator than Hynek...  Big Deal...

>What am I missing about J. Allen Hynek?

>It is my conjecture that Hynek's career as an astronomer was
>hardly first rank, probably because of his involvement in the
>UFO field, on which he spent a significant amount of his time.
>And even here one must ask: What is his
>lasting legacy in ufology -- CUFOS?

>Section I.

The fault in the above paragraph and the bulk of what follows is
in the use of what I call the false predicate.  By example, you
make what could be construed as an authoritative statement on
the color of the daytime sky above.  I could call your remarks
an adequate response to my needling.  Or, I could say that by
attempting a learned response, you are presenting yourself as a
noted physicist in optics and atmospherics, yet your reply falls
short of intellectual depth suggesting you have some deceptive
motive in responding.  The false predicate here would be my
declaration that you are presenting yourself as a respected
physicist and must meet my standards of intellectual rigor.

This runs rampant throughout the rest of your message.  I am
mystified at how you can ascribe such importance and meaning to
your expectations of the achievements of these men.  I see no
value in this.  They did what they did to the extent that they
wanted to do it, to the extent that they could.  If that fails
your current expectations, too bad.

>Although I subscribe to and enjoy the IUR, the journal has a
>small circulation.

>a)How influential is it?

>b)Is it cited in the mainstream press or media, do they
>  even know it exists?

>c)How many university libraries subscribe?

>Section II.

<snip>

I have checked my deep background celestial sources and they
inform me that there was no divinely ordained decree of the
required achievements of Hynek or Larsen.  No heavenly hallmarks
have been set for them by which their failure to achieve must
necessarily mean intentional subversion and sabotage on their
parts.  This dialectic appears to only be valid in your
imagination, Gary.

Bye...  Ted..





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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 11

                      Roswell: The 'Debris' Photographs

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:26:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:54:10 -0500
Subject: Roswell: The 'Debris' Photographs


I've uploaded to my web site a composite image showing the three
photographs of Ramey, Marcel and Newton with the 'Roswell'
debris:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/foil.jpg


Also to prove that the same debris is evident in all three
photographs:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/foil2.jpg

In these images, the green letters denote apparent matches
between the Ramey photograph and the other two, whilst the red
letters show comparisons between the Marcel and Newton
photographs.


Given that Marcel reportedly claimed the debris he was
photographed with came from the 'flying saucer' and that it's
obvious the same type of material is shown in all three
photographs - i.e., there was no 'switch' - what is the basis
for disputing Marcel's testimony?



James.





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   Dec > Dec 11

                         More HAARP Disinformation?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:52:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:52:34 -0500
Subject: More HAARP Disinformation?


Hi everyone (& the odd lurking entity).

I was sent an interesting document via a PC disc today on
'alleged' events at HAARP earlier this year.

[see below --ebk]

It is similar to a file I found on the internet around April
Fool's Day this year. As I've  previously mentioned (& it
doesn't bore you?), one of our 1st priorities must be to root
out dis-information. HAARP is a big area of current interest,
for many reasons. But without proof one way or another I cannot
say whether this & similar documents/files in widespread public
domain are dis-information.

As I'm based in London it would be rather difficult, but there
must be some one more 'local' who would be prepared to do on the
ground research to investigate these claims. No site can be that
well hidden surely? I have always believed it to be in Alaska,
am I wrong? What other projects are really associated with the
site? Look at the transport & communication links.

If anyone has the 'doctored' photo (.jpg .gif or whatever)
mentioned, as I have never been able to trace it, (it was
mentioned in the previous document too), I would be prepared to
try to analyse it, we do have a half decent PC &
Photo-shop 5 etc.... this end.

I want the truth.

Our actual contact addresses are:-

1) If you want the MOD/MI5 etc to read it first....

WOOLWICH UFO RESEARCH GROUP
P.O.BOX 3775
LONDON
SE18 3QR
ENGLAND

2) Mail to this address is usually un-touched, just don't
mention the word UFO on the envelope!

MARC BELL
113 HERBERT ROAD
PLUMSTEAD
LONDON
SE18 3QH
ENGLAND

Personally I feel they just look for the word UFO on the package
& intercept it.... they're not that clever are they?

All the best

Marc (WUFORG)

_____________________________________________

Subject:  BLOCKBUSTER HAARP DOCUMENT!!

Dear Recipients:

Okay folks-- here is something really BIG.

Some in the conspiracy research field, and probably even a fair
number of average Americans at this point, are at least dimly
aware of some of the supposed goals and agendas of the HAARP
Project, currently under the near- exclusive control of the U.S.
Navy.


Preston Nichols, as noted in some recent updates I've provided,
has found out some very interesting information regarding HAARP
recently.

Early last summer, in a much-publicized situation, Brookhaven
National Laboratories on Long Island underwent a significant and
far reaching change of directorship, and also a change of
direction and focus.

Subsequent to these well-publicized but inadequately explained
changes at Brookhaven Labs last year, several of the Navy's key
HAARP personnel are now stationed at BNL. No public mention has
been made of this.

Latest reports show that the Navy has more or less completely
taken over the HAARP operations and that the Air Force is no
longer involved.

A witness who would definitely know has stated that certain of
the photos on the "official" Navy HAARP website betray the fact
that the photos were doctored---according to this knowledgeable
source, structures visible in the photos prove that the HAARP
site shown in the photo is not in Alaska (if it ever was) but is
in fact on Long Island, in the Westhampton pine barrens quite
close to Brookhaven Labs. A structure positively identified as
part of Brookhaven National Laboratories is in fact visible in
this particular photo. The photo was doctored by adding
mountains in the background, to keep the lie going that the
HAARP is being operated in Alaska.

Nichols told me that he knows where this antenna site in the
pine barrens is. I have totally independent confirmation from
another source that the antenna farm in the Westhampton pine
barrens is protected 24/7 by Delta Force-type personnel with
automatic weapons.  This guy was hiking there and came upon the
heavily fenced and posted site without having encountered any
warning signs etc.. An armed guard wearing a featureless black
uniform warned him off with threats of deadly force! Needless to
say he was hella shocked, dudes!

Additionally the underground facility at Camp Hero/Montauk Air
Force Station has recently been forcibly entered in some kind of
(par)military operation. Apparently some folks wanted in at Camp
Hero in a big way and weren't going to take no for an answer.

Other evidence from Preston Nichols in conjunction with all this
makes it fairly clear what is probably going on: that is, the
Navy's HAARP crew, after getting in at Brookhaven, got some kind
of flak from the Air Force (at the base until last year, running
particle beam operations related to Hale-Bopp) in response to
the Navy's intention to book into Montauk, and so the Navy
(probably SEALS) got rough. My (semi-educated) guess is that
these spooks want to hook HAARP up at the Montauk planetary grid
power point.

A source who has very substantial information pipelines to
certain ultra top secret intelligence and military agencies
recently informed me that HAARP, at this point totally under the
control of the Navy, currently has  extensive weather control
and mind manipulation agendas working. Also confirmed is that
the Navy/HAARP contingent has definitely taken control of the
Montauk underground installations, in a decidedly heavy-handed
fashion; i.e., they were definitely not given the keys. This
source informed me that one can safely assume they are "up to no
good", in a rather substantial understatement.

Now here's where things get even more interesting. It has been
known for at least a few years now and was commented on in my
report on the Montauk Project, that particle accelerators are
definitely in use in a number of locations on Long Island, such
as at Brookhaven Labs, Montauk Air Force Station, and a number
of underground locations in between these two sites. Despite
endless denials and blank stares from Brookhaven flak-catchers
and their cohorts, there is proof-positive of the existence of
such a unit at Brookhaven.

No one, not even Preston Nichols, has been able to say with
absolute certainty what these accelerators are used for;
well-founded rumors from contacts in the area give strong
indication that particle beam weapons have been deployed against
what might be termed hostile incursions on the part of
undesirable and ostensibly "illegal aliens", and I ain't talkin'
about from south of the border. As usual, this line of info is
out of my chosen purview and I really can't comment or elaborate
on this angle in any way.

There are a number of accelerators at several locations on
eastern Long Island including underground in the Westhampton
pine barrens. The Navy/HAARP crew has now definitely assumed
control of Brookhaven Labs, the Montauk base and the particle
accelerators. Nichols has long suspected but been unable to
prove that particle accelerators and beams were somehow being
utilized in HAARP, despite absolutely no reference to this
whatsoever in any public or internal documents which have ever
seen the light of day regarding HAARP.

In an absolutely astonishing event, the suspicions of Nichols
and other investigators have apparently been unequivically and
massively confirmed.

The contact of Nichols who had made the observation regarding
the fact that the photo on the HAARP website was of a Long
Island antenna farm adjacent to Brookhaven Labs received the
following fax recently. His fax machine is set up with certain
security systems which provides among other things the
originating point of any fax communications received. All such
security systems were disabled and/or overridden when this
particular fax was received. Just yesterday the fax transmission
was traced to Southampton via phone company records. Whether it
was a relay transmission of some kind is not known.

The body of the fax itself is full of completely classified and
highly technical information; as well as completely classified
internal routing codes; the document makes reference to top
secret internal directives and procedures; it also makes
reference to totally classified technology  such as the Proteus
particle accelerator; and to top it all off it specifically
identifies this technology as being utilized in current HAARP
operations.

What is even more astounding is that by inference, this document
reveals that HAARP has yet another agenda, VASTLY more secret
than even the mind and weather manipulation agendas for the
project. This document basically proves that particle
accelerators and beams are being used in the HAARP operations to
effect interdimensional and time manipulations! It would seem
that since the portal apparatus at the Montauk underground has
been rendered useless, another way of generating
interdimensional and time portals is being pursued aggressively
and massively.

And guess what? According to the text of this fax, it screwed
up--big time.

Nichols told me right off the bat that he does suspect a hoax,
because it just seems too good to be true; the document
confirmed so many suspicions and theories which Nichols has,
such as multiple HAARP sites online worldwide, the existence and
use of the "Proteus" accelerator, and the x-dimension project
reported on by Al Bielek, to name but a few.

One over-riding question still remains however--is the document
the genuine article, making reference to real events and
technologies, or is it in fact some very clever disinformation,
orginating nonetheless from the named agencies? This is the
question that neither Nichols nor anyone else can really answer
with certainty, and none of them including myself, will try.

Now it is important to realize that this document and the
information within it could most likely _only_ have originated
from deep within the intelligence arm of the U. S. Navy, due to
the tremendous amount of classified information in the document,
as well as the inexplicable way it was received. Additionally,
according to the recipient, the document was produced using a
version of Adobe Pagemaker which is only available to
government. It was _not_ produced using the the commercially
available version of this software.

Granted a skilled and knowledgeable hacker could conceivably
have enough knowledge of internal military security codes,
routing information, internal directives and classified projects
to fake the main body of this document. However, there are some
significant points which argue rather strongly _against_ it
being a hoax.  When the fax was received the recipient was out
of town. His digital cellphone can access 12 different networks.
His cellphone locked into one particular network the day and
time the fax was received, and to this day he cannot get off
this network.  Also, his beeper can either be on a nationwide or
worldwide network; it had been on the nationwide network, and at
the time the fax came in it somehow switched to the worldwide
network, and has remained locked onto that network. Nichols'
cellphone can also utilize different networks. Since the fax
came in, he can only access the only Milcell (military) network,
and can't get off this network!! This kind of thing is much
harder for some hoaxer or hacker to implement or fake than the
text of the document itself. Interestingly as well, it is _not_
commonly known that the recipient of the fax is in any way
connected to Preston Nichols.

In other words, if it is a "hoax", it definitely comes from the
military/ intelligence arm of the government. One thing which is
sure to be commented on and which some will say more than
suggests this is a hoax is the fact that the document is dated
April 1. That is an easy out, though perhaps worth considering.
Nevertheless no one can say that nothing genuine or significant
happens on April 1.

If it's not a hoax, then an extremely significant and rather
earthshaking bit of evidence has been leaked, by someone, which
in one fell swoop validates a tremendous amount of
circumstantial evidence and informed assumptions regarding
certain ultra-top-secret government projects.

If it's not a hoax, then I could say we're in deeper shit than
even I thought possible.

There is one other oddity about the document itself which
possibly diminishes it's overall credibility.  While retyping
the document I realized that the zip code in the heading is not
a Washington D.C. zip code. Checking the zip code I found out
that this is the zip code for Fort Myers, Florida. What's very
interesting about _this_ is that Fort Myers is a major spook town
known to have covert Navy projects in operation there, and also
has known strong ties to the Montauk Project.

One final point: the document makes reference to the fact that
the dimensional rift accidentally caused by the Proteus particle
accelerator malfunction has duplicated a situation which also
occurred in 1995, and which allowed predatory reptilian beings
to "invade" our time-space continuum. This is an obvious
reference to the extremely severe and never adequately explained
wildfires in the WESTHAMPTON PINE BARRENS during August 1995. As
I relayed in my report on the Montauk Project, Preston Nichols
was informed point-blank by Air Force officers at the time that
the wildfires were being caused by serious malfunctions of the
particle accelerator/beam operations on eastern Long Island.
(What remains unknown about that event is whether or not a
hostile action caused the particle accelerator malfunction or
whether such a malfunction created certain conditions for
hostile entities.)

As I am nearly totally over my head here, and not just regarding
the technology, I am at Nichols' request disseminating this
document as far and wide as possible, in the hopes that
knowledgeable individuals, who can help to either validate or
invalidate the information contained within, will make public
their knowledge  regarding this incredible item.

I ask all recipients of this document to please assist us in
such dissemination to the very greatest extent possible, by
resending or forwarding the document to every conceivable
individual and/or organization from which some input might be
forthcoming: as well, to the general public at large.

This is without any doubt major evidence here, folks; either
evidence of deliberate, massive and malicious official
disinformation, or evidence of a (yet another) mind boggling and
truly unconscionable covert program being operated under cover
of the officially acknowledged HAARP project.

Let's see what, if anything, the public release of this document
stirs up.

Thank you for your assistance.


Sincerely,
John Quinn






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                  Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 00:55:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:03:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]


>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:54:06 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>The psychosocial hypothesis (so-called, there's not a _single_
>hypothesis as such) suggests that the UFO phenomenon, including
>such events as abductions, is not caused by the physical
>intervention of some extra- mundane intelligence. Rather it
>suggests that the phenomenon as a whole is the result of a large
>number of different events ranging from misinterpretations of
>natural and astronomical phenomena to entirely internal and
>subjective events within the percipient's brain. There is no
>_one_ explanation. It then suggests that the percipient's
>interpretation of these events is coloured by their
>psychological condition and their sociological circumstances.

This is extremely self-contradictory. First, John claims there
is no single PSH, then he proceeds to define the PSH. It's one
or the other - it can't be both.

Now the first part of this statement is, frankly, unreasonable.
There has been no sufficient body of evidence developed by PSH
or any other science to contradict the observed fact that there
are some genuine physical evidence cases, some apparently
genuine UFO photos, and some genuine R/V cases, such as those
developed so well by Sparks, by McDonald, and others. Even a
single such case is sufficient to demolish the PSH as
represented in the first part of the above statement. And, in
fact, there appears to be nothing novel about this part of the
PSH when compared to the MHH (Misperception, Hoax, Hallucination
hypothesis) as used by Phil Klass, the AF and any other
debunker.

The second part of the statement - to the effect that witness
accounts are affected by perceptual acuity, emotional state and
stability, and by any preconceptions as to the nature of their
perception - is also hardly novel, and would not even be
considered debatable by the average field investigator. Haines'
Observing UFO's [1980] remains the most comprehensive coverage
of this subject from the perspective of the actual investigator.

Now the unstated part of the PSH in the above definition, is
however, the most important.

One of the major obstacles to the MHH (and thus the first part
of the PSH) is the consistency of reports separated by major
extents of time and space. Because it is clear that UFO
witnesses do not communicate before the event, the only way a
theory contesting the physical existence of UFOs can make
headway is to claim that the content of UFO reports is
determined by a shared medium - in the case of the PSH, that
medium is culture.

In other words, according to the PSH, the structure, content,
and quantity of UFO reports is determined, not by objective
events, but by the presence of certain influences in the
cultural environment.

To take the current example, the claim is that a cultural
influence relating to the attitudes of Americans to immigrants
affects the content of abduction reports. In an earlier
discussion of another PSH hypothesis, it was claimed that the
content of migraine experience was interpreted by some of the
afflicted as CE class UFO reports. Again, one can only assume
the effect of cultural influences to cause such interpretations.

But if cultural phenomena are the determinants of UFO reports,
ignoring all the evidence for objective existence, then there
are still a number of burdens of proof resting on such a
hypothesis. For instance, it must predict variations in the
quantity of UFO reports, and it must do so in such a way as to
eliminate the possibility that the claimed cause might also
provide reason or opportunity for the increased reporting of an
actual event of consistent frequency, and that the variation is
not due to a possible actual variation in the frequency of an
objective phenomenon.

Another burden is that such a hypothesis is required to explain
the similarities between the appearance of various objects
separated widely in location and time, and of each of the
features of such events. Generally, it must be demonstrated for
each UFO report that the witness was exposed to a cultural
influence which would necessarily result in the reporting of an
object of the specified appearance with the specified behavior.
To be honest, such a hypothesis would need to explain CE cases,
not just small angular extent NL cases.

In general, PSH claims are more general. They rely on the
presence of potentially effective influences somewhere in the
environment, or, actually, anywhere in the environment. They
also allow great leeway in the form of such influences. As they
must, since there are many UFO and occupant reports which
display an appearance that differs radically from anything ever
shown in art, film, television, or other medium. Worse yet,
there are many forms which attained great popular currency in
the media (such as the finned and rocket tubed spaceships of the
early era of SF, or the giant riveted and portholed cylindrical
superships of the 1930s, 40s and 50s SF), which have never
appeared in UFO reports.

As was pointed out extensively in the earlier debates on the PSH
approach to abductions, there are great difficulties with regard
to the specific cause suggested. For instance, immigration is
not just an issue of great concern to Americans, but has been
such an issue for many nations in many different time periods (I
suggest a reading of Thomas Sowell's recent books on the subject
for those interested in examples). Yet the subject demonstrates
a recency and consistency despite the persistence of the problem
across time and space and despite the great cultural variations
involved. This is not explained by the PSH.

>If I'm even in the right direction it leads to the possibility
>of a couple of predictions, and this is why I think the question
>of Black abductees is important. If racial identity, and
>particulary concern about immigration and inter-racial sexuality
>is an issue in the abduction experience we might expect that
>there will a difference in the proportion of Black, White,
>Hispanic, etc. experiencers.

>Initial suggestions in this discussion group suggest that this
>might be so, but also reasonable suggestions have been made that
>this may be an artifact of the reporting process. Perhaps we
>could have more details on this? It clearly _is_ important to
>have these figures available.

This illustrates another significant problem with the PSH. It
leads theory to outrun data. It might be appropriate to advance
this specific claim IF a statistical analysis had been done by a
PSH proponent in advance of making the claim. Just as the case
for a migraine explanation of CEs might have been worth
considering if a single clinical example of a CE hallucination
from clinical trials of migraine medication had been
demonstrated to exist when we were discussing that claim, it
might be worth discussing claims of "racial identity" (whatever
that is) as an influence on UFO reports if some data were
provided suggesting any such correlation. But it is not.

>It might be that, having taken the reporting bias into account,
>there is no significant difference in the proportions of
>abduction experiencers in different racial groups.

So go find out, and _then_ advance your claim. Speculation is
worthless without facts. Get the facts first.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm





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   Dec > Dec 11

             Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer: An Analytic Profile

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 01:03:26 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:22:42 -0500
Subject: Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer: An Analytic Profile


Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer: An Analytic Profile
by Dr. Will Miller, America's Pop Culture Analyst

A toxic story of an abused, victimized forest animal, this song
is actually harmful for people, especially children. It appears
to be a simple, innocuous little jingle, but in fact, it has a
very ominous message. It defames the reputation of Santa Claus
by giving the message that he was a neglectful, selfish demigod,
embodying the very opposite of the true Santa qualities we
admire. It says that being different is bad, unless you do
something useful. It says that if something is wrong with you,
you only have value if your handicap somehow becomes useful.
Rudolph is someone with low self-esteem. He allows Santa to
shamelessly use him. This is a depressed, compliant reindeer. He
is codependent and from a dysfunctional herd, who needs to
enroll in a Twelve-Hoof program. If we go through the song line
by line, the meaning is quite clear.

        Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer,
        had a very shiny nose

It is clear from the outset that we are dealing with an abused,
handicapped little forest creature. Rudolph is a youngster who
has a severe physical challenge, in this case, a deformed nose.
Now we are not talking about a little blemish here, but a
significant and prominent facial mistake.

        And if you ever saw it,
        you would even say it glows

This serves to emphasize the horror of the nose, the staggering
size and prominence of this unusual facial feature. In essence,
the writer is saying that even you, a human, who would only
catch a fleeting glimpse of this creature flying through the sky
at night, even you would notice this incredible nose, this epic
proboscis. In other words, any right thinking person could not
help but to participate in the cruel ridicule of this
beleaguered little reindeer. Pathetic!

        All of the other Reindeer,
        used to laugh and call him names

Rudolph was obviously subjected to vicious taunting and outright
rejection by his work peers. Now if these were adolescent,
school aged reindeer, the taunting would be somewhat
understandable. But in fact these are adult reindeer, full-time
employees on the Santa sleigh. These were not kids, but working
bucks supporting families. This makes their teasing all the more
horrible.

        They never let poor Rudolph,
        join in any reindeer games

Rudolph was ostracized from the herd because he was different.
The most obvious question to ask is where were Rudolph's
parents?One can only suspect that they were at best indifferent
and perhaps even neglectful. Why didn't they arrange for
corrective surgery?But even more than this, what does this
scenario tell us about Santa himself?He let the abusive ridicule
go on right on his work premises. Clearly he did not come to
Rudolph's rescue, or step in to defend Rudolph. This gives us an
uncomfortable insight into Santa's personality, a different look
at his capacity for cruelty. At the very least, why didn't the
other reindeer receive sensitivity training or education about
Rudolph's condition?

And this makes sense. Think about the legend of Santa Claus. The
reality of Santa's role in Christmas is that those from rich
families wake up Christmas morning and have a lot of gifts from
Santa. Those from poor families wake up and have very little.
Where is the justice here?Where is Santa for the kids who really
need him?What the song tells us is that the real Santa is the
white man with an eating disorder who serves the rich
establishment and ignores the poor and disenfranchised. So are
we really surprised that he did not come in to defend Rudolph
from the cruelty of the other reindeer?

        Then on foggy Christmas Eve, Santa came to say,
        Rudolph with your nose so bright,
        won't you guide my sleigh tonight

Here is where the real personality of Santa is revealed. He
finally steps into Rudolph's life when it suited his own needs.
Using Rudolph's glowing nose as a headlight became the
justification for Santa to finally support Rudolph. The message
here is clear: people will give to you, but only if it serves
their own purposes. If you have something that I can use, I will
endear myself to you, even giving gifts to you, in order to get
what I need.

If the nose could have glowed by itself, the implication is that
there would have been little hesitation to kill Rudolph and
simply take the nose for a headlight, to be held by the lead
Reindeer. He was not really valued for his innate leadership
abilities, or his flying prowess.

        Then how the Reindeer loved him,
        as they shouted out with glee

How do you imagine Rudolph felt about his new found
popularity?Surely he must have known how truly resentful the
other reindeer were toward him. These alleged warm and loving
feelings for him were in fact quite shallow and feckless. At
some level, Rudolph must have known that the others secretly
hated him. And why wouldn't they, just because he now had the
approval of Santa?They knew full well that Santa was merely
using Rudolph. No, they hated him. They were now dependent on
Rudolph and believed that he would lord his newfound authority
over them. The cold fact is they held Rudolph in deep, bitter
contempt. And this gives the real meaning and power to the last
line.

        Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer,
        you'll go down in history

You will indeed go down in history, Rudolph -- literally. The
other reindeer would seek the first opportunity to cut Rudolph
loose from the reins and watch him crash and die in frozen
tundra below on Christmas Eve. This is the inevitable end of
Rudolph, destined to be murdered by his peers. A very bitter
story. A story of pure evil. But before he died, Rudolph did
have some measure of satisfaction, as the hated other reindeer





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   Dec > Dec 11

                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 01:37:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:25:26 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


>From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: How To Film An Abduction
>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:49:53 -0600

>An extremely strong type of double-sided tape, possibly the type
>used to secure carpeting to the floor, could be purchased in a
>few square feet and secured to the ground on a proper location
>to entrap an intruder (especially a feeble li'l grey).  We've
>dubbed this the "alien-paper" method.

It's not necessary to capture the creature, when such a method
could yield unusual material from its feet.

Of course, the problem remains that not all abductors are
reported to touch the floor.

In a long ago post (here, I think) I tried to create a list of
suggestions for possible evidence gathering from abductions. If
anyone is interested, I could repost.

I'd point out that many of the things which can be done are well
within the capabilities of modern forensics and are, thus, quite
practical.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------





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   Dec > Dec 11

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 02:14:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:47:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 22:59:58 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>Well, if you consider the intentions of the ETs in question, one
>has to ask why they find it important to return the victim at
>all. Secondly, why do they find it necessary to erase the
>victim's memory? One might suppose that the ET's intentions were
>to hide evidence of themselves from humans.

>But does this really make sense?

Roger -

I cannot say I really "believe" in abductions, but I do try to
retain an open mind on the subject

I do suspect that there is a lot of noise in the abduction data,
and the proportion which is noise remains unknown.

However, in paying attention to the reaction of UFO witnesses
and abductees, at least as indicated in written accounts, it
certainly seems that there is some resemblance to PTSD
(Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) in some of those reactions.
Indeed, this represents one explanation for those pesky
abductions which don't seem to have physical reality (for
instance those where the abductee claims to have been
abducted while under an observation which shows no
abduction to have occurred). The reason for my saying this
lies in the cases of PTSD among persons who report
that a sound or smell can trigger a complete and enveloping
reexperience of a traumatic event.

So, are abductees correct in interpreting their missing
time as a deliberate act by the abductors, or is the memory
loss simply suppression of a traumatic event, perhaps
confabulated on recall with a "justification"? We can't
really know at this point, as far as I can tell. But I would
find it interesting if abductees were examined by experts





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   Dec > Dec 11

                              Re: The Challenge

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:33:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 19:28:55 -0500
Subject: Re: The Challenge


>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 19:12:58 -0600 (CST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Challenge

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: The Challenge
>>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:29:56 -0500

>In lieu of the fact that Hopkins, Jacobs and others now claim
>that the profusely prolific abduction phenomenon dates back at
>least to the turn of this century, I suggested that such a
>traumatic experience _should_ have turned up _somewhere_ in the
>medical, pediatric and/or psychological literature prior to the
>advent of contemporary UFO literature. Yet as far as I am aware
>there is not even a single suggestive example of same anywhere,
>East, West, or inbetween.

<snip>

If you believe Dave Jacobs (and I know you don't!), abductions
have been increasing geometrically, because the aliens started
with a few people, and then abducted all their descendants.

According to this view, there wouldn't have been many abductions
a hundred years ago, not nearly as many as there are now.

That said, what would you take to be a suggestive example? How
much like the standard abduction tale would it have to be? Many
or most abductees come into the abduction world with fragmentary
memories of their abductions. Would you settle for somebody in
1898 claiming strange lights in the bedroom, or beings by the
bed, or unusual marks appearing? That's all you get at the start
now, in many cases.

>As for Hopkins, I do admit that I sometimes tire of his tirades
>directed at Sagan, Nova, and science in general, when, as far as
>I can tell, he couldn't even cobble up a single sheet of
>statistics based on his own decades long abduction research if
>he had to. If that's a rant (your characterization), so be it.

>(And don't take it as a defense of Nova, Sagan, and mainstream
>science, either, as some probably will. Take it as the simple
>observation that it is, namely, that science starts at home.)

Couldn't agree more with this critique of Budd, though I do have
to say that I've never heard him attack "science in general."
Sagan and Nova are another story -- they deserve his rants.
(See? I'm an equal opportunity rant-accuser.)

>>Thus, we learn even from an orthodox psychologist that accepting
>>abduction experiences and learning more about them can relieve
>>they anxiety they cause.

>I'm all for reducing abduction anxiety, but "learning more about
>them," for me, remains rather ambiguous and open-ended. Does it
>imply, for example, that someone really _knows_?

>But I'll concede that I think I know what you're getting at it.
>As a non-experiencer, I would like to learn more about the
>experience, too. Which raises the question: has anyone ever been
>abducted who _wanted_ to be abducted, just to see what it was
>like?

I may not have been at my limpid best when I wrote what you're
responding to. I meant that abductees learn about what they
believe their experiences to be, not necessarily that this
knowledge can be proved accurate.

Nobody seems to be able to will an abduction -- if they don't
come to get you, they don't come to get you, and wishing they
would doesn't make any difference. I'd bet there'd be many
volunteers, if volunteers were accepted. And I love your
willingness to test it yourself.

>While I can't speak for their efficacy, or lack thereof, I
>notice that Ann Druffel has just published an entire book based
>on abduction avoidance techniques. But maybe her abductees are
>different, somehow, from Budd's abductees?

>>Whatever the abduction experience really is -- whether it's
>>physically real or not -- the only proven way to relieve the
>>anxiety it causes is to accept that it happens, and move on. (Of
>>course, if abductees, taken as a group, showed signs of
>>psychopathology, that might not be true. But they don't.)

>>Greg Sandow

>The _only_ proven way? Not according to Druffel. And then
>there's Dr. Leo Sprinkle (and the former Dr. John Salter, now
>Grey Hunter or somesuch), whose approach seems to be a variation
>on the theme, why struggle, when you can lay back and enjoy it.
>Or that of John Mack, who, for the price of an abduction, throws
>in a past life or two (one as an alien) in the bargain. Or Dr.
>Richard (no extra charge for the hot tub) Boylan or Dr. Edith
>(oops, lost my license to practice, too) Fiore. And there's
>always Whitley Strieber, who gets at least as much, if not much
>more, mail than Budd in any given month.

Hey, you forgot Michelle LaVigne, author of "The Alien Abduction
Survival Guide," who says she's friends with her chief abductor,
and even knows his name. (Hetor.)

I'd love to know more about Druffel's abductees. Is it accurate
to say she recommends a "little engine that could" approach? "I
think I can, I think I can, I think I can make these abductors
go away." Maybe it works!

But one thing she and every name on your list has in common is
that they all think abductions are real. So they're examples of
what I meant, though I concede I didn't have them in mind when I
made my point. The abductees who feel better because they like
Strieber's point of view, and even  the ones whose outlook
improves after a close encounter in Boylan's hot tub didn't
fight the reality of their experiences. They didn't rush to be
"cured" of thinking they were abducted. Instead, they decided
that it really was happening, and learned to cope in their own
ways.

Many of Budd's abductees take a positive view of the phenomenon,
by the way. I wouldn't want to guess a percentage, but in my
experience it might be as high as 35%.

One problem with Druffel's approach is the temptation of
fantasy. If you convince yourself you won't be abducted any
more, you might just supress the memory when the experience does
recur. Fundamentalist Christians, by the way, seem to have the
same approach. They think the abductors are Satanic demons, and
think that if their faith is strong, they can drive the demons
away. Which can lead them, too, to resolutely convince
themselves that their abductions have stopped. It's hard to
separate fantasy from genuine abduction memories -- and yes, I
know I've just raised the question of whether any abduction
memories are genuine.






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                Re: Laura Lee Show E-News - December 12, 1998

From: Laura Lee <webmaster@lauralee.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:04:22 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 19:36:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Laura Lee Show E-News - December 12, 1998


LAURA LEE E-NEWS
Thanks for subscribing to Laura Lee E-News.

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RADIO SHOW GUEST/TOPIC LINE UP - Saturday, December 12, 1998
By Laura Lee

Stephen Mehler
Just back from Egypt, Mehler and Abdel Hakim Awyen found
evidence of a vast hydraulics system under the Gize plateau.
They suggest these water ways and tunnels, connecting to the
pyramids, were components of an ancient technology that dates
back over 10,000 years to Giza's indigenous population. The
ancient name of Egypt is KMT, or Khemet; this early civilization
thus earns the name "Khemetians." We'll ask how these findings
support Christopher Dunn's thesis on the Great Pyramid as
ancient power plant (see previous interview with Chris Dunn on
audio archive for 8/15/98) and how far this tunnel system
extends, what evidence they found for it, and more.
http://www.lauralee.com/mehler.htm

Roberta Williams
You have only the slimmest set of directions. You're don't know
where to begin, so you regard everything as a clue. Some are,
some aren't, but you follow them like breadcrumbs through the
forest and eventually, pattern emerges, etched by an outside
logic. You realize you've added experience and skills you didn't
know you had within you, and the tools you need seem to make
their appearance. You find that though you want to get to the
next level, you don't want the adventure to end. To me, that
sounds like a description of life. To Roberta Williams, who
takes mythic story lines to a whole new dimension as interactive
computer games, it's the dynamics of the game. Do the metaphors
and strategies that work in games, also work in life?

Roland McCraty and Deborah Rozman
Members of the Institute of HeartMath with new studies on the
heart and intuition. They are finding the heart generates an
electro-magnetic field that is 50 times stronger than the field
generated by the brain. (How do heart waves compare to brain
waves? Are they measured in the same way? And if the brain and
heart generate separate fields, does that lead to interference?
We'll ask.) They say this field is full of information. What
kind? This field is best tapped when our emotional field is
coherent. Which feels clear and in sync. Our heart's EM field
can affect, and be registered by, other people's brain waves. Is
this then one of the mechanisms of our intuition?
http://www.lauralee.com/heartmath.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JOIN US for our NEW WEEKDAY INTERNET ONLY SHOW
Internet Show Homepage: http://www.lauralee.com/online.htm

Friday, Dec 11
William Henry
"Hitlers Nazis were involved in a secret occult war during WWII,
and so was FDR", says investigator William Henry. In a radical
challenge to the orthodox history of WW II, Henry asks: What
ancient relics did the Nazis search for? What did Roosevelt find
on his search for the reincarnated Jesus in 1934? We knew Hitler
was deeply influenced by the occult, but FDR?  The Theosophical
Society, the Thule Society, The Spear and Cup of Destiny, the
Black Stone, The Temple of Solomon, Runes and Swastikas, and
more. http://www.lauralee.com/henry.htm

Monday, Dec 14 Dale Graff  - "The Best of the Laura Lee Show".
Former director of the US Government "Stargate" program on
remote viewing and ESP tells what the numerous studies done over
the last 40 years say about mind over matter, how the government
used and developed psi abilities, what he personally learned
about it all, and his recommendation for all of us to increase
our use of this natural talent. What he has to say about the
many complicated, expensive remote viewing workshops out there
may surprise you. http://www.lauralee.com/graff.htm

Tuesday, Dec 15
Charles Ginenthal - Continuing Series
Immanuel Velikovsky challenged Einstein's General Theory of
Relativity, astronomy's findings on the age and stability of our
solar system, archeology's time line for ancient dynasties and
cities, even Freud on the cause of neurosis. For his trouble,
Velikovsky was denounced widely, but not before gaining the
interest of Einstein and other great minds of his day. Charles
Ginenthal, long-time researcher and author on Velikovsky's life
and work, tells us which of Velikovsky's many theories are still
viable, and what recent scientific data may be confirming.
http://www.lauralee.com/ginenthal.htm

For the upcoming Guest/Topic Line-up of LAURA LEE ONLINE,
click here: http://www.lauralee.com/online.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ANSWERS TO FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS FOLLOW
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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the previous nights show. Now formatted in REAL AUDIO. The Audio
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Or go direct:  http://www.lauralee.com/aud_live.htm

BULLETIN BOARD SECTION for YOUR REACTION TO GUESTS: We named it
"And the Conversation Continues" This new feature is a bulletin
board segmented by date, then guest, to gather your musings and
reactions to the various guest and their research. Offer as well
as read the musings of others, including Laura Lee.
http://www.lauralee.com/bulletin.htm

LIVE  RADIO SHOW HOURS:
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message or postcard to the Program Director, requesting that
he/she add the missing hours of our show to their lineup. That
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(Starting at 11 PM Eastern) http://www.lauralee.com/online.htm

WEEKLY BOOK GIVEAWAY: Books, videos and audio tapes are given
away from a random drawing of entries. To enter, go to:
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SEE SOME INTERESTING PHOTOS
Weve got "must-see" photos of Chinas pyramids, and Japans
underwater stone mysteries. View photos at:
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LAST MINUTE CHANGES OFTEN OCCUR:
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scheduled when this is sent. Last minute and often unavoidable
changes can occur. When a scheduled guest  is unable to join us,
well include a rescheduled time/date in the next email message
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   Dec > Dec 11

                          Re: The Goldwater Letters

From: Mike Hallal <mhallal9@idt.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:49:24 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 20:24:04 -0500
Subject: Re: The Goldwater Letters


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:57:01 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Goldwater Letters

>>Date:08 Dec 1998 20:43:00 CET
>>From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: The Goldwater Letters
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>> *Information From The International Roswell Initiative,
>>Germany*
>>         ************************************************

>Joachim,

>In re your Goldwater letters... I think it is important that the
>Internet now permits folks world wide to confront these matters
>and the US Govt. has so much less control... That is why I went
>international with the RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team)
>"Roswell Revisitation" project out the gate... We keep all the
>findings scattered among members and associates -- from
>Australia to the former USSR -- and also posted on the web. So
>there is no way the US Govt. can swoop down on us and confiscate
>it. There cannot be another Watergate Break-in attempt!

>Bottom line: I think that if we pool our knowledge and efforts
>internationally the US Govt. will be virtually powerless to
>subvert our efforts! And besides they have their hands full now
>dealing with the antics of Saddam! Who poses a much _greater _
>political threat!

>My plan is to keep drumming the chant: "Unlock the Roswell
>Garage! Let us SEE/EXAMINE the craft! Then we all can move on
>with our lives!"

>James Bond Johnson


I may not agree with JBJ's interpretation of his own photos (!),
but damn if he ain't got it right when he talks about all of us
pooling our knowledge and efforts. We, the people, can move
mountains, and we just might need to, to get to the bottom (!)
of UFO info.

My gal thinks Clinton might even overwrite his stained legacy if
he'd just appoint an Independent Counsel for UFO Investigations!

Time has come today. Peace. Out.
______________________________






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   Dec > Dec 11

                     UFO Mid-Air Crash Filmed In Israel?

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:18:38 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 20:30:01 -0500
Subject: UFO Mid-Air Crash Filmed In Israel?


Below is a forwarded (and reformatted) e-mail from Tony Craddock
of CSETI about an interesting UFO video taken in Israel.

From my experience, it is not uncommon to see fighter jets
flying low over the skies of Isreal and streaks of light at
night which look like someone was firing at something.  With
Christmas fast approaching (Merry Christmas to everyone), I
would not be surprised if somebody would even try to shoot down
the Star of Bethlehem in that part of the world.

I got some nice pictures of the latest Space Shuttle launch (a
rare night time launch) which I will show you next time we meet.
The sky over Kennedy Space Center was clear and even though the
Moon was nearly full, I got a chance to reacquaint myself with
some old friends such as Orion, Cassiopeia and the twins which
are hard to see well in the bright city lights of Toronto.

Nick Balaskas



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:22:30 -0800
From: "A.J. Craddock" <webmaster@cseti.org>
To: webmaster@cseti.org
Subject: Fw: midair ufo crash

From: "David Kingston" <david.kingston@virgin.net>
To: "Dr. Steven M Greer" <Dr_ET@compuserve.com>
Subject: Fw: midair ufo crash
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 21:30:02 -0000

-----Original Message-----
From: barry chamish <chamish@netvision.net.il>
To: David Kingston <david.kingston@virgin.net>
Date: 10 December 1998 14:07
Subject: midair ufo crash


     UFO MID-AIR CRASH FILMED IN ISRAEL by Barry Chamish

Yet another landmark event in the eleven year long Israeli UFO
wave has taken place. In what appears to be a historical first,
a mid-air crash between two UFOs has been video-taped.

On 28/9/95, Spasso Maximovitch noticed an unexplainable object
in the skies over Rosh Haayin in central Israel. He grabbed his
video camera and captured a silvery, glowing object become, two,
three and then four fiery orbs, in a near square formation, over
a wide expanse of the northwestern sky. After this incident, Mr.
Maximovitch became a constant skywatcher. His dilgence was rewarded
on 24/6/96 when a similar silvery orb appeared in the lower western
sky. He trained his video camera on the orb...

And then a glowing white oval-shaped object appeared some 20
degrees west of the object and streaked toward it at high speed.
Within three seconds it struck the stationary orb, causing a huge
explosion in the sky which must have destroyed both objects.
Stunned, Maximovitch stopped filming immediately after capturing
the explosion.

He privately turned over the two films to journalist David Ronen
and I acquired copies. Ronen, who for three years had his own UFO
column in a weekend magazine owned by the newspaper Maariv, got the
ax two months ago. People with UFO experiences still seek him out
and he is free to utilize their material, some of it he hopes will
be included in a film project he is involved with.

However, the vast bulk of the videotapes, photos and testimonies
are the property of Maariv and are being stored in a safe within
the newspaper's headquarters. To his utter frustration, Ronen has,
so far, not been given free access to the invaluable documentation.
If the Maximovitch tapes are any indication of what Maariv is
holding back, the full story of Israel's UFO wave is far more
dramatic than currently believed.

I have sent the two Maximovitch tapes to Union Skyline Pictures of
London for examination and possible inclusion in their upcoming
three part series Riddle Of The Skies, which will be broadcast by
Channel Four in the UK and RTL in Germany. A stumbling block has
been encountered, however: Maximovitch cannot be located for
permission to release his tapes for the series.

Nonetheless, numerous Israeli videotapers of UFOs have agreed to
allow their films to appear in the series. They include, Ehud
Baraban, who taped a stunning triangular formation over Tel Aviv,
Adrian Gvir, who captured a colorful triangular craft over Rishon
Letzion, Gil Bar, who taped an F-16 chasing a UFO over the daylight
skies of Rishon Letzion, Rafi Malka, responsible for Israel's first
UFO videotape in 1988, of a large craft with numerous lights over
Haifa, the Shuah family, who caught a closeup of what appears to be
a multi-vent UFO energy system over Kibbutz Hatzor and Nahum
Shomroni, who, in November '97, recorded on tape an invasion of
black, sponge-shaped craft over Tel Aviv in mid-day.  With or
without the explosion over Rosh Haayin, the Israeli segment of the
series will be exciting.

Whether included by Union Skyline or not, I will present the Rosh
Haayin mid-air crash (or possibly deliberate destruction) of the two
unidentified objects to experts in our field or at conferences. It is
my opinion that this tape is an invaluable record of a most
mysterious event.

end

For more information on the Israeli UFO wave, visit
http://members.tripod.com/~ufoisrael


Sounds more like a shoot-down to me!

Regards

Tony Craddock
Web Administrator
CSETI
http://www.cseti.org





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   Dec > Dec 11

                       Re: Recent Australian Sightings

From: Sue Lawrence <NevadaFighter@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:49:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 20:48:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Recent Australian Sightings


Hi All,

I've just received brief information regarding a UFO flap today
in Australia. As co-section leader of the Sightings section on
the CompuServe UFO Forum, we are currently looking for more
information of these sightings. If you have any information,
please either email me direct at NevadaFighter@compuserve.com or
reply using UFO Updates.

Thanks






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   Dec > Dec 11

                       Correction to Filers Files #49

From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:36:41 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 21:00:02 -0500
Subject: Correction to Filers Files #49


All,

George quotes the URL of my website for the Fort Worth Pictures
in his Filers Files #49. The address he quotes is actually for
the download of the full resolution scan of the Ramey Message.
The frount door for all the Fort Worth images in general is:

http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/index.htm

I've put a link back to this URL from the quoted page just in
case<g>.

Neil.

--
*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *
Neil Morris.       /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\
Dept of Physics.   1                                                 1
Univ of Manchester 0                                                 0
Schuster Labs.     1  Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES  1
Brunswick St.      0                                                 0
Manchester.        1                                                 1
UK.                \0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/
G8KOQ


             E-mail: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive->   http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/
Dave Willetts Home Page->     http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/dave_willetts/
Mike Sterling Home Page->     http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/mike-s/
Tim Morgan Home Page   ->     http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tim-m/






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   Dec > Dec 11

                        RAF Rudloe Manor - RAF Henlow

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 05:29:30 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 20:58:01 -0500
Subject: RAF Rudloe Manor - RAF Henlow


Dear UpDates,

In August the British UFO Studies Centre announced that the RAF
Provost and Security Services, involved in research into UFO
reports in Britain, previously housed at Rudloe Manor in
Wiltshire, were to move house to RAF Henlow in Bedfordshire.
Previously parts of the Rudloe operation were controlled from
RAF Brampton is Cambridgeshire. Now both facilities are within
easy reach of each other and of course, civil servants and top
brass from London will not need to travel as far......

It is interesting to note that several months after this
ground-breaking news UK government asset Nick Pope, author of
two books on the UFO subject, has now made the announcement that
the move took place on November 9th.

Perhaps this just goes to show that certain UFO researchers are
ahead of the government spin operation.....

Having said that, RAF Rudloe Manor was, in our experience, not
well guarded (BUFOSC's Eric Morris chatted with the security
personnel on duty for over an hour!!) and although a complex of
35 miles of tunnels existed beneath the Corsham area this had
little to do with UFOs and everything to do with Cold War
history. Duncan Campbell visited the area on several occasions
before writing his classic "War Plan UK" (published in 1982 at
the height of anti-nuclear demonstrations in the UK) and noted
the high level of security there. At that time Corsham was of
course the proposed HQ for government and military operations in
the event of a national emergency situation.

The plain clothes "spooks" that we encountered during our visit
to Rudloe last Summer were undoubtedly concerned with protecting
the Controller Defence Communications Network (CDCN) facility
located nearby and not Rudloe Manor with its' "UFO links".

During our many visits to the Corsham complex last Summer we
were not questioned, interviewed, stopped or harassed in any way
- and this came as a surprise given all the hype about guns,
threats and promises emanating from teams of RAF security
personnel said to cruise the area in unmarked transit vans!






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   Dec > Dec 11

                          Re: The Goldwater Letters

From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com>
Date: 11 Dec 98 19:43:00 CET
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 21:18:10 -0500
Subject: Re: The Goldwater Letters


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:57:01 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Goldwater Letters

>My plan is to keep drumming the chant: "Unlock the Roswell
>Garage! Let us SEE/EXAMINE the craft! Then we all can move on
>with our lives!"

Fact is: the U.S. Government simply ignores the votes of more
than 20,000 serious and goodwilling people of all ages and all
professions, among them hundreds of scientists and two Apollo
astronauts (of whom one walked on the Moon).

So you mean... we all should meet in July 2001, the first year
of the new Millenium, in Washington to demand the truth about a
certain Space Odyssey?

So you mean... we all, the betrayed ones from all over the
world, should meet in Washington to declare that we, The People,
have a right to know  and that we then want to know?

Something mighty? Something that in this way never happened
before?

Joachim Koch





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   Dec > Dec 11

                Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...]

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:30:10 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 21:34:29 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...]


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...]
>Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:27:39 -0500

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:47:00 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO Humor or UFO Hummer [& Apologies...]

>>Send me cash, not check or money order, for $0.25 American for
>>each gallon, and I will ship the product free of charge.  I have
>>the international marketing rights to Gesundt's Freshly made
>>wines and otherworld spirits.  I will sell no wine, until it's
>>ready!

>Dr Gesundt,

>Please send 10 000 gallons of your wine to the following
>address:

>Waponi Woo Island
>South Pacific

>Can you add orange taste to the mixture? (I'll pay for the
>supplement)

>And, ahem, this is a little embarrassing, but I am a little short
>right now.  Could you put this on my bill?

>;|

>Serge
=======================================>
Serge, List and other Entities...

Hmmmm..... 10,000 gallons, eh?  Uh, well Serge, that is
asking quite a lot.  Lemmee figure this out.  Lessee, Mickey's
hand is on Minnie's whatsis.... an' the square of pie divided
by the framous to the tenth factorial of three... uh....

Yup!  We can handle it Serge. Sorry it took so long to do the
cipherin.' This is an unusually large quantity.  But we can do
it.  As for the money, don't let that bother you.  I can float
you for a cupla weeks.  My uncle, Toto, who does kneecaps, is
also my collectshun agency.  Him an da boize will take good care
of yous.  I'll send him around wit da vino, nice an fresh made.

And to show my good faith, I am going to throw in some of our
special orange/grape flavoring.  We make this special flavoring
from a batch of orange flavor that one of our former customers
left us.... sorta in his will, ya know what I mean?   He, ah,
er, uh.... didn't pay us on time.  An beCAUS it's you, no
charge!

Of course, I may ask you to teturn dis favor some day!  Ma,
tu capeesh?" **

** "Famous Sicilian Quotations," by Sunny Corlionee, Palermo
Books... 1985






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                      UFOs, Carols by Candle light - Oz

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:52:42 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 21:53:00 -0500
Subject: UFOs, Carols by Candle light - Oz


The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
tkbnetw@fan.net.au

*************************************************************
UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number
                       1800 77 22 88 Free Call
*************************************************************

UFOs, Carols by Candle light Maroochydore Beach
Source: UFOICQ, 11.12.98 Time 7.55pm.

Mr. E Marshall saw 3 objects half the size of his little
fingernail, creamy white in colour.  He said, I was lying down
on the beach listing to the carols with my wife, looking up at
the sky, it was a very clear night, I could see all the stars,
then all of a sudden I saw these 3 objects move quickly into my
view "all at once".  I thought at first it might be a plane,
then it moved in the opposite direction so fast, I thought wow
that's no plane I yelled at my wife to look we watched the 3
objects do unbelievable manoeuvres for 40 seconds.

Object 1. came straight down doing what looked like a question
mark movement ( ? )then disappeared Object 2 .  did a zig zaged
and went Southeast. Object 3. Disappeared for a second then
reappeared and went in a westerly direction.
_____________________________________

Alice Springs Sighting

Alice Springs Time Early morning 10.12.98
Source: Keith Douglass

Toni  of Katherine reported  seeing a red ball UFO with Orange
flashing light's around it, near Katherine "more detail soon".
(U/I)

Alice Springs 10.12.98 Time 2.30pm?
Source: Keith Douglass

White ball of light seemed to light up part's of Alice, report's
where object had long green tail, Keith said he thinks it may
have been a meteor.

Regards Diane Harrsion, Robert Frola
Co/ Director UFO Investigation Centre Queensland
&
Keith Douglass Independent UFO Researcher Alice Springs
P.O.Box 3205
Alice Springs NT 0871
Tel 08 89 53 30 23
Keeping us in touch with the outback






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   Dec > Dec 11

                  Roswell UFO Museum Dec. Lecture Cancelled

From: Dennis Balthaser <truthskr@roswell.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:02:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 22:02:29 -0500
Subject: Roswell UFO Museum Dec. Lecture Cancelled


Deon Crosby resigned from the Museum, Aug. 20, 1998, and I began
booking speakers for the monthly lecture series at the
International UFO Museum and Research Center. When Glenn Dennis
asked me to sever my relationship with the Museum, Oct. 28,
1998, it appears it left no one with any knowledge of ufology,
nor any contacts for respectable speakers.(Kevin Randle informed
me a few weeks ago, after having been in town, that he was
approached by Glenn Dennis and Max Littell to possibly assist
the Museum in obtaining speakers), again proving no one
currently in charge at the "tourist attraction" in Roswell, has
knowledge of ufology.

Prior to being asked to leave by Glenn Dennis, I had contacted
Wendy Connors,(Project Sign) to be the December lecturer. Wendy
cancelled her lecture for Dec. a full month and a half ago, for
reasons I will not disclose here, giving ample notice to the
Museum.

At the Nov. lecture, it was announced that the replacement
speakers for Wendy, in December, would be the original 3
Founders, Glenn, Max and Walter, who according to an article in
the Roswell Daily Record yesterday, would have a panel
discussion to openly discuss the Museum, their involvement in
the Roswell Incident and ufology in general.

I received email from individuals who volunteer at the Museum,
informing me that the Dec. lecture scheduled for tomorrow night
(Dec. 12) was cancelled, due to Walter Haut not being informed
he was supposed to be one of the speakers. It was in fact
announced at the Nov.lecture, Nov. 14, who the speakers in Dec.
would be.

This to me is another indication of the direction the Museum is
taking under the current leadership of Glenn Dennis and Glenda
Shafer. It truly is sad that people continue to be denied the
truth and information so desparately needed to resolve the
Roswell Incident. Some of us will continue to pursue those
truths, with or without the International UFO Museum.

In closing dare I speculate why Walter Haut wouldn't want to be
part of the panel, using the excuse he had not been notified,
when in fact those at the November lecture were told who would
speak in December.

Have a great Holiday Season.

Dennis (truthseeker) Balthaser

<http://members.aol.com/cellyst/>





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 11

                 DISPATCH # 112 -- the weekly newsletter of

From: ParaScope@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:55:28 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 22:06:08 -0500
Subject: DISPATCH # 112 -- the weekly newsletter of


S O M E T H I N G   S T R A N G E   I S   H A P P E N I N G

12/11/98

Quote of the Week

"Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome."

--Isaac Asimov

-----------------------

Rant of the Week: �Believe, I know, that I speak�

Every week we pick the wackiest, scariest, nastiest or funniest rant from the
hundreds of letters received by us here at ParaScope headquarters, and present
it to you as our Rant of the Week. This week, Russian mathematician �Vladimir�
divulges the secret of the ancient water god as part of deciperhing the most
ancient cryptogram in the world. Enjoy.

"My name is Vladimir Pakhomov. I am mathematician. I am happy to announce,
that I has found its and has read. This unbelievably, but fact. On this has
left several years of work.

"I has decipherred the most ancient cryptogram in world. Can be this palaeo-
SETI.

"The message is written on language mathematicians (palaeo-mathematics). This
language a mankind repeatedly forgot, but it is always restored itself
together with development of civilizations. I name this "message of other
intelligence". Since nothing like we did not create, analogues no. Big part of
message is decoded. It contains varied given: drawings an manlikes, bestial
and birds (including extinct); the images of starry sky; the numeric data of
Earth and solar system; construction universe; the information about date and
reason of worldwide flood and a great deal another.

"This information is kept in legends about Noah's flood. Amongst the got
drawings there is image of flooded land. That this? Atlantis, Mu, Lemuria? To
understand the got results, I had to study the mythology and to collect the
rests  of ancient knowledges.

"There is in message and image Oannes with interesting technical details. Its
easy hear. 7000 years ago in Babylonian mythology, there was a god, Ea (who
later would be called Oannes by the Greeks), who was a water god. He was
depicted as having the upper body of a man, and the lower body of a fish.
Other drawings remind drawings discovered in the Tiahuanaco (Bolivia, South
America).

"Even knowing all this, we do not be able to create such message. Beside us
come short knowledges and powers of computers.

"Believe, I know, that I speak. I work with computers more than 30 years
already.

"This create Non-human Intelligence, unknown civilization. The genius of a
lost world. This call to human intelligence.

"If You want, I can acquaint You with some results. For this, I shall send the
letters with the enclosed images. You its see and You its hear.

"I while publish the article in newspapers, sometimes newspapers write about
my opening themselves. But short articles do not enable to explain all,
consecutively, from the very beginning.

"The Crisis in Russia obstructs publishing the book. To break through this
information blockade, I was connected to the Internet.

"Report the address of organizations and persons, leading work in this area of
studies. Help me to leave on publishers of books, journals and newspapers. Or
advise other way. Possible organize the debate?"

------

All rants are printed �as is,� with spelling and grammar goofs left
uncorrected. Some rants may be edited for brevity or clarity, to the extent
such a thing is possible. If you�ve got a rant you�d like to share, send it to
pscplady@aol.com with �possible rant� in the subject line of your letter.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Coming Up This Week!

Catch a number of great stories this week on the ParaScope web and AOL sites,
including daily updates to our Conspiracy Newsline and Daily Dose features.
Among the articles you'll want to check out:


Subliminal CIA?

In 1958, the American public faced a frightening question: could subliminal
messages be used to influence the unsuspecting? The anecdotal evidence seemed
to confirm the Big Brotherish power of subliminals. Naturally, the CIA checked
it out. Dossier revisits the dawn of the mind wars, with an updated special
report -- complete with documentation -- that unveils the secret story of the
agency's investigation of hidden persuasion.

---------------------

UFO Cautionary Tales #6:
The Horror of the Heights

It's become commonplace to claim that Hollywood science fiction films and TV
shows about aliens are all part of an enormous sub-rosa plot to gradually
indoctrinate the world to the coming of extraterrestrials. Does Steven
Spielberg need the MJ-12 to give him story ideas? Was Gene Roddenberry in the
pay of the MIB? Such speculation is entertaining, but science fiction writers
are perfectly capable of creatively exploring fictional extraterrestrial
worlds without the help of government psywar experts. ParaScope presents Sir
Arthur Conan Doyle's "The Horror of the Heights," a fantastic science fiction
thriller about an "aerial jungle" above 30,000 feet inhabited by gigantic,
menacing creatures. Doyle's fictional vision presaged early UFO theories which
asserted that the unknown objects populating our skies were actually ultra-
high altitude (or outer space) animals, lured down to the "depths" of the
atmosphere by our noisy warfare and atomic explosions. Paul B. Thompson's
introduction sets the backdrop for this classic tale.

---------------------

Conspiracy Newsline

If you're not paranoid by now, you must be crazy! Human Rights Watch cites
numerous right violations in the United States; judge strikes down Virginia's
public library "Internet filter" censorship law; media watchdog group slams
the New York Times for creative letter editing; lots more news from the
fraying edge.

---------------------

UFO Roundup

UFOs active around Colorado's Blanca Peak; UFO "squadron" sighted in Italy;
weird brown goop falls from the sky onto two Michigan homes; sightings in
England and Australia; lots more news.


...All this, and much, much more!


-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Jane, Stop This Crazy Thing!

Thought you were tough enough to handle the Dispatch and now you realize
you're not? Starting to think you've made a wrong turn off the info highway?
Well, we're only going to go over this once, so listen up!

To unsubscribe yourself from Dispatch:

1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com

2) In the body of your mail, type: unsubscribe dispatch

That's all there is to it!

Likewise, to subscribe:

1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com

2) In the body of your mail, type: subscribe dispatch

----------------------------------------

ParaScope
11288 Ventura Blvd., #904
Studio City, CA 91604

America Online -- keyword: parascope
parascope@aol.com

World-Wide Web -- http://www.parascope.com





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 12

                       Re: More HAARP Disinformation?

From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 06:22:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 06:22:40 -0500
Subject: Re: More HAARP Disinformation?



>F[r]om: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: More HAARP Disinformation?
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>Hi everyone (& the odd lurking entity).

>I was sent an interesting document via a PC disc today on
>'alleged' events at HAARP earlier this year.

<snip>

Somehow I managed to typo 'From' in the header of Marc Bell's
post which caused 'UpDates' to get the credit for the original
version at the UpDates Archive on Ufomind.

Apologies, Marc

ebk





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 12

                           Hoagland, Bara & HAARP

From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 06:36:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 06:36:56 -0500
Subject: Hoagland, Bara & HAARP



For subscribers intrigued by the combination of 'HAARP',
33 degrees, NASA etc. a visit to:

http://www.lunaranomalies.com/did_haarp.htm

may prove rewarding. Scroll & read to the end.


ebk






   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 12

               -=[For The Record]=- P-47: ...1890s 'Airships'?

From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 06:56:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 06:56:11 -0500
Subject: -=[For The Record]=- P-47: ...1890s 'Airships'?



From: John Stepkowski <legion@MIRA.NET>
Subject: Secrets of the Sonora Aero Club - 1890s "Airships"?
To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Hi All;

Something of interest for the UFO historians.

===========================================================

>From: _The New Times_ via "houstonpress.com", December 10.

http://www.houston-press.com/1998/121098/feature2-1.html

============================================================

Secrets of the Sonora Aero Club

By Cynthia Greenwood

A turn-of-the-century tale of UFOs, cracking some code, art
collectors and mysterious airship sightings in Southwest skies

                            +*+*+

In 1899, Charles Dellschau, a grouchy retired butcher, began to
paint amazing airships.  His intricate collages show shiplike
decks supported by striped balloon pontoons; they show
bright-colored helicopters and evil-looking striped dirigibles
outfitted for war; they show crews of dapper little gentlemen
accompanied by the occasional cat.  Many pages are bedecked with
little newspaper clippings about aviation, and text in his weird
Germanic lettering celebrates the pure, unexcelled marvelousness
of the flying machines.

Nearly a century later, folk-art collectors hold the works in high
esteem.  A page from Dellschau's notebooks can fetch as much as
$15,000, a hefty price even in a booming market.  A _New York Times_
reviewer said that Dellschau possesses "a charming style that
presages Monty Python"; the _Village Voice_ called the works
"sweetly bizarre."

It's hard to say what the old man would have made of such praise;
he doesn't seem to have thought of himself as an artist.  It's not
clear even whether he intended the notebooks for anyone's eyes but
his own.  The drawings are crudely sewn together with shoelaces
and thread, and newsprint is glued on the edge of each leaf as a
spine.  Watercolor airships occupy both sides of the pages.

Taken at face value, Dellschau's collages document the feats of
the Sonora Aero Club, a secretive group dedicated to the creation
of "aeros," or flying machines.  In code, and bad spelling in both
English and German, Dellschau recounted how, in his youth 50 years
before, he and fellow club members gleefully ruled the skies of
Gold Rush California, piloting fantastical airships of their own
invention.

Perhaps the notebooks' tales were merely fictions, Dellschau's
efforts to entertain himself.  Perhaps the old man had grown a tad
deranged.  Or perhaps Dellschau was actually recounting the
exploits of his youth, embellishing here and there, but remaining
somewhat faithful to the facts.  Oddly, that last supposition --
the strangest possibility of all -- seems the most likely.  One
line of thought even ties the Sonora club to a rash of
UFOsightings.

But untangling Dellschau's tale is a complicated matter, one that
involves penetrating many levels of secrecy, including that of
the very people trying to solve his riddles.

The puzzle of Dellschau's aeros intrigues both art historians and
UFO enthusiasts.  Not surprising, most of the hard facts come from
the art world.

Two years ago, William Steen, a mild-mannered frame designer at
the Menil Collection, pieced together documents indicating the
sketchy official outlines of Dellschau's life.  Steen modestly
claims to be no scholar, but his four-sheet chronology of
Dellschau's life provides the most reliable biography available.

Steen found the immigration record that shows Dellschau's 1853
arrival in the United States.  The young immigrant told officials
that he was 25 years old; had been born in Brandenburg, Prussia;
traveled here from Hamburg and listed his occupation as a farmer.

Steen uncovered Dellschau's letter of citizenship, which traces
his whereabouts to Harris County in 1856 and Fort Bend County in
1860.  Between those years, the historical documents are silent
about Dellschau's whereabouts.  And it's precisely during that gap
that Dellschau claims the Sonora club's exploits took place.  So
far, Steen has not been able to locate documents showing that
Dellschau even lived in California in the 1850s.  Nor do there
seem to be credible reports of unidentified flying objects in the
area.

But where the historical records are silent, the artist's
notebooks make noisy, extravagant claims.  Dellschau represents
himself as the club's draftsman and scribe, rather than as one of
its inventors or fliers; he never draws himself aboard an aero.
He illustrates a remarkable number of designs -- maybe as many as
100 -- for airships with names such as Aero Mio, Aero Trump, Aero
Schnabel and Aero Mary.  (There's even an Aero Jourdan.) All were
powered by a secret formula that Dellschau called both "supe" and
"suppe"; it could both negate gravity and drive the ships' wheels,
side paddles and compressor motors.

One drawing tells the story of Adolf Goetz's "Aero Goeit,"
recklessly commandeered by an unskilled pilot; the airship got
tangled in a Sequoia tree, and the interloper died of a broken
neck.  Another cautionary tale involves Jacob Mischer, a pilot who
went down in flames in the Aero Gander; Dellschau hints that he
was sabotaged by other club members, who suspected him of using
the aircraft to make money by hauling cargo.

But most of the airships' flights were safe -- and great fun.
Dellschau depicts his aviators enjoying hot breakfasts, and
delights in enumerating the ships' clever gadgets.  He often
bedecked his watercolor paintings with little press clippings --
from Scientific American, the Houston Chronicle and an
unidentified German-language newspaper -- that recount air
disasters; Dellschau called them "press blooms." Against paintings
of the Sonora club's successes, the clippings seem intended as an
ironic counterpoint.

Dellschau never seems to explain why the club worked so hard to
protect its secrecy, but he shows the members going to great
lengths to do so.  By day, the Aero Goeit was disguised as a gypsy
wagon, so it could travel open roads undetected.  Dellschau writes
that a club member was banned from developing a machine because
he'd talked to outsiders.  And of course, even years after the
club disbanded, many of Dellschau's own comments are rendered in
code.  Apparently, whatever it was that he had to say was too
private even for his own notebooks.

Often the drawings show the heroic Peter Mennis, pilot of the Aero
Goose and creator of the near-magical suppe.  According to
Dellschau's notebooks, Mennis died in the 1860s, and without his
secret formula, the club could fly no longer and was forced to
disband.  In picture after picture, Dellschau laments Mennis's
demise.  "Peter Mennis you are not forgotten," he writes in one;
in another, "no more suppe."

Sometime before 1892, Dellschau's daughter Bertha was diagnosed
with tuberculosis and was institutionalized.  By 1898, the
sanatorium wrote Dellschau that she wouldn't live much longer.

For a few years after moving to Houston, Dellschau worked as a
salesman and clerk for Stelzig's saddlery and harness business on
Main Street, between Congress and Franklin.  But the aging butcher
-- in his late 50s when he moved to Houston -- never mastered work
in a service industry.  "They sent him home," says Leo Stelzig
Jr., Anton's grandson.  "He was kind of abrupt and wasn't smooth
with the customers."

It was then that Dellschau began to fill his days by filling his
notebooks.  He wrote a two-part, 200-page journal and produced
roughly 5,000 ink-and-watercolor drawings before his death in
1923.  By Steen's calculation, that works out to the furious rate
of a drawing every day or two.  "He had something to say," Steen
concludes.  "The most important thing in his life was his work."

--------------------------------------------------

Leo Stelzig Jr.  was two years old when Dellschau died and, as a
boy, used to rummage through the attic looking for old letters
whose stamps could grace his collection.  In the process, he came
across Dellschau's belongings and marveled at the bizarre aeros.

Dellschau's notebooks languished in the attic until sometime in
the 1960s.  According to Steen's search of public records, the
fire department found the house a fire hazard and ordered that it
be cleared of debris.  A nurse who'd been hired to care for Anton
Stelzig's two aging sisters attacked the job zealously and in the
process consigned many of the Stelzigs' valuables to a trash heap
on the curb.  Among the losses were old World War I uniforms, some
very old records and -- worst of all -- Dellschau's notebooks.
Now 74, Leo Stelzig shakes his head sadly as he recounts the
nurse's words: "I took care of that mess and cleaned it all up."

At the Washington Street dump, an unidentified trash man sold the
notebooks to junk man Fred Washington for $100.  Washington took
them to his O.K.  Trading Center on Washington Avenue, where they
lay stacked on the floor, covered with a tarp because the
building's roof leaked.

In 1969, Mary Jane Victor was an art history student at the
University of St.  Thomas -- and a regular patron of the O.K.
Trading Center.  She remembers being amazed to come across the
scrapbooks.

At the university art department, Victor was working for art
patron Dominique de Menil, a Schlumberger heiress famous for her
eye for surrealists and the primitive art that inspired them.
Victor promptly told de Menil about her find and put her in touch
with the junk dealer.  Soon after, the heiress paid Washington
$1,500 for four of the earliest notebooks.

"Dellschau for her was an eccentric," recalls Steen.  "She had a
wonderful affinity for eccentrics." Half joking, she told Steen
she was especially drawn to the coded phrase "DM=X0" scrawled
across the top of many drawings.  She thought DM stood for
"Dominique de Menil." And the rest somehow equaled her own death.

--------------------------------------------

Soon after de Menil acquired the notebooks, she exhibited some of
their leaves in "Flight," a University of St.  Thomas show on the
subject.  And it was there that Pete Navarro, one of the most
dogged investigators of Dellschau's mysteries, first encountered
the aeros.

Navarro, a Houston commercial artist, was intrigued by UFOs,
especially by a mysterious rash of airship sightings near the turn
of the century, not long before Dellschau began his drawings.
Navarro read about the St.  Thomas exhibition one morning at the
breakfast table.  And when he saw Dellschau's drawings, he felt
there had to be a connection to the sightings.

Ufologists believe that between November 1896 and April 1897,
thousands of Americans in 18 states between California and Indiana
saw a curious dirigible-like flying machine floating eastward.  No
physical evidence of a ship or a designer has ever surfaced, but
newspapers such as the New York Times, Dallas Morning News, San
Antonio Daily Express and Chicago Tribune devoted space to the
sightings.  In this century, authors Daniel Cohen and William
Chariton have published books on the subject.

The mysterious craft was first spotted on November 17, 1896, by
R.L.  Lowery, near a brewery in Sacramento, California.  According
to various newspaper reports, the craft seemed to travel eastward.
In spring, it was spotted in Texas.

At 1:16 a.m.  on April 17, 1897, the Reverend J.W.  Smith saw what
he thought was a shooting star in the night sky of Childress,
Texas, then decided it was really a flying machine.  Eventually he
recognized it as the much-discussed cigar-shaped airship.

Four days after Smith's UFO sighting, the Houston Daily Post gave
a lengthy account of his and other spottings of the same airship,
a 30-foot-long skiff-shaped contraption outfitted with revolving
wheels and sails.

Jim Nelson, a farmer from Atlanta, Texas, recalled glimmers of
red, green and blue lights and "a glaring gleam of white light"
that shone directly in front of the airship.  In Belton, a crowd
witnessed the same vehicle the next night.  They claimed its
pilots spoke loudly as they flew overhead, but the ship's velocity
was so great, their words were lost in the wind.

According to other newspaper accounts, witnesses managed to talk
with the pilots.  Sometimes townspeople even came upon the crew
members, who were apparently making repairs to their marvelous
machine and were willing to chat.

 --------------------------------------------------

In 1972, three years after de Menil bought her four notebooks,
Pete Navarro learned that more Dellschau notebooks were collecting
dust at Washington's junk shop.  Nobody wanted them, so Navarro
gave the dealer $65 for one book.  Hooked by what he saw, he
returned and offered $500 more for the remaining seven.

Navarro tried to sell four of the notebooks to de Menil; she chose
not to buy them -- perhaps because she liked the work in her own
notebooks better.  De Menil owned some of Dellschau's earliest
notebooks and believed that they included his best work.  As the
artist aged, his works grew looser, more expressionistic; de Menil
seems to have preferred his earlier precision.

But for Navarro, the notebooks weren't about artistic quality;
they were pieces of a historical puzzle.  He visited Helen and
Tommy Britton, cousins of Leo Jr.  Helen promised she'd try to
find more books and pictures of Dellschau that were hidden around
the family's old house, but she died before she could locate
anything.  Navarro also talked to Tommy Britton, who was a preteen
when Dellschau died.  Now in his 80s, he may be the last living
relative who remembers Dellschau.  (Britton couldn't be reached
for this story.)

After culling a vast number of such press clippings, Navarro
created an elaborate map of every Texas sighting and wrote several
papers.  Some are on file at the Houston Public Library's Texas
archive; others are available on the Internet at www.keelynet.com.
In "The Mysterious Mr.  Wilson and the Books of Dellschau,"
co-written with UFO enthusiast Jimmy Ward, Navarro posits a
connection between Dellschau's clandestine society and a
mysterious pilot named Hiram Wilson mentioned in an article by the
San Antonio Daily Express on April 26, 1897, about a local airship
sighting.  The article identifies the airship's occupants as
Wilson, from Goshen, New York; his father, Willard H. Wilson,
assistant master mechanic of the New York Central Railroad; and
their co-pilot C.J.  Walsh, an electrical engineer from San
Francisco.

In that story, Hiram Wilson divulged to witnesses that his airship
design came from an uncle.  Navarro believes that the uncle could
have been another Wilson -- the Sonora club member Tosh Wilson
mentioned in one of Dellschau's watercolors.  According to
Navarro, Dellschau's coded messages say that Tosh searched seven
years to rediscover suppe, the lost fuel, and finally succeeded.

Navarro has found no trace of a Hiram Wilson residing in Goshen.
But he does offer evidence of his presence at 1897 airship
sightings in Greenville, Texas (on April 16); near Lake Charles,
Louisiana (on April 19); near Beaumont, Texas (April 19); Uvalde,
Texas (April 20); Lacoste, Texas (April 24); and Eagle Pass, Texas
(April 24).

On April 28, the Galveston Daily News ran the headline "Airship
Inventor Wilson." The article reported the inventor's encounter
with one Captain Akers, a customs agent from Eagle Pass.  Akers
told the newspaper that Wilson "was a finely educated man about 24
years of age and seemed to have money with which to prosecute his
investigations."

Based on such reports, Navarro proposes several scenarios.
Perhaps the ship spotted near San Antonio had been flown by both
Hiram and Willard Wilson.  Or perhaps each pilot was steering his
own airship across Texas.  (This would explain why witnesses
living a distance from one another offered simultaneous sightings
of a man who identified himself as Wilson.) Navarro also
speculates that one of these Wilsons was the same Tosh Wilson who
had once belonged to the Sonora Aero Club.  In that scenario, Tosh
would have been reliving the glory days Dellschau could only
illustrate in his notebooks.

--------------------------------------------------

To confirm the aero club's activities, Navarro has traveled to
Sonora, talked to historians, searched the newspapers and even
visited all the cemeteries.  He found nothing.  At times, he says,
he couldn't help thinking that Dellschau made everything up.

Eventually, whether the Sonora club was a dream or real stopped
mattering to Navarro.  One day, he remembers being absorbed by a
passage inscribed in one of the drawings: "Wonder Weaver, you will
unriddle my writings." Navarro grew convinced that he and his
brother, Rudy, "were weaving wonders." He says of Dellschau,
"Maybe we had similar minds."

To crack Dellschau's 40-symbol code, Navarro enlisted the help of
his brother, Rudy, and a couple who spoke German.  He says the
effort took only one month, but he won't release the key or a
literal translation.

Navarro will talk only about the same phrase that enchanted de
Menil: "DM=X0." To Navarro, it stands for "NYMZA," an acronym for
a secret society that controlled the Sonora club's doings.  Based
on Navarro's papers, some ufologists have speculated that NYMZA
was controlled by -- what else?  -- aliens; Navarro doesn't buy
that theory.

Navarro explains that he's saving his best stuff for his
collaborator, Dennis Crenshaw, who's writing a book called The
Secrets of Dellschau.  But Steen, at the Menil, isn't convinced
that Navarro really deciphered the symbols.  Steen once asked
Navarro to translate the code; Navarro would tell him the meaning
of only a couple of sentences.

Navarro is clearly torn between showing off and keeping secrets.
He's compiled a voluminous scrapbook titled "Dellschau's Aeros."
He proudly showed it to me.  It's full of wild code translations
and weird exegeses on the aeros and oddments that Dellschau just
stuffed, unbound, in the notebooks: cartoons, a photocopy of
Dellschau's marriage certificate, letters, maps, clippings and
more clippings about all manner of harebrained inventions.
There's even a picture of Otto, Bavaria's Mad Monarch.

But Navarro won't take his hands off the scrapbook.  It, too,
contains secrets, truths and tidbits linking Dellschau's club with
the airship mystery.  And for the moment, Navarro wants to keep
the secrets for himself.

Slowly, though, other of Dellschau's secrets are revealing
themselves.  In early December, I asked Charles Stelzig -- Leo's
son -- if his father had any of Dellschau's stuff.  Charles turned
up a boxful.  He and I were the first to go through them since Leo
Jr.'s stamp-collecting days.  We found souvenir pictures of famous
Germans; one shows Wilhelm, Kaiser of Deutschland.

And we found letters.  Some, postmarked "Germany," are from a
woman named Mary Sprengel.  Another one is from Bertha Dellschau,
written from the sanatorium.  It begins, "Dear Papa."

The box also held two antique photo albums crumbling at the touch.
Many of the photos show the logos of Berlin photographers.  Are
they from long-lost relatives writing to Charles, long after
Prussia became part of united Germany?  Another picture shows Mary
Dellschau, the artist's daughter.  And there are photos of young
men, any one of whom could be Dellschau himself.

We found more.  A yellowed legal certificate in German script
bears the signatures of Friederike Wilhelmine and Heinrich Adolphe
Dellschau, Charles's parents.  In the middle of the page, they've
written "Carl August Albert." Dated June 5, 1830, the document
appears to be the artist's birth certificate.

Other discoveries offered keys to Dellschau's work.  Two receipts,
dated 1888 and 1889, showed Dellschau's payments to the New
Orleans German Gazette.  Until now, no one has known which
German-language newspaper he used in his collages; surely this is
it.

Last, more clippings surfaced.  All are about inventions and cut
in perfect squares like Dellschau's "press blooms." The most
revealing boasts of "The Secret of the Keeley Motor." The article
describes a force oddly reminiscent of suppe, Dellschau's miracle
airship fuel.

The Menil Collection still holds the four notebooks de Menil
bought and, in fact, showed them this fall, part of a show of the
de Menils' collection of folk art.  Most of the time, though, the
books sit locked in a humidity-controlled room upstairs,
individually tucked in flat boxes.

Museum authorities plan someday to hire a scholarly biographer to
study Dellschau.  In the meantime, William Steen continues to
unearth new pieces of information.  He's now examining clues about
the lives of Dellschau's daughters, Bertha and Mary.

And in January, Steen plans a side trip to Sonora after retrieving
some Menil-owned Picassos on loan in a San Francisco exhibit.  He
hopes to get a feel for the Gold Rush era and perhaps even to
uncover traces of the club's members.

Recently he had Dellschau's journals translated from German into
English.  Their 200 pages feature stories about members of the
Sonora Aero Club, with very few illustrations.  In these tales,
Dellschau mentions a boarding house, complete with bar and dining
room, where he and club buddies stayed.

Something about the tales nags at Steen.  "The more details I see
about Dellschau, the more convinced I am that a great deal of it
is highly possible," he says.  "Even though it's fantastic, it's
more than just fairy tales."

As for Pete Navarro, after trying to unravel the artist's secrets
for 25 years, he still has the dreamy-eyed look of someone
possessed by a riddle.  Over the years, he's sold all his
Dellschau notebooks because he needed the cash.  Four went to the
San Antonio Museum Association in 1972 and are shared between the
Witte and San Antonio Museum of Art.  Two years ago, Navarro sold
his remaining four to the Ricco/Maresca Art Gallery in Manhattan.

Those notebooks hold the artist's late work, from 1919 to 1923.
Gallery director Stephen Romano says he's sold more than ten
pieces; Romano won't reveal the buyers' names but will say that a
major law firm took three and that a stockbrocker, psychiatrist
and film editor have each bought one.  In just the last year, the
selling price for a single Dellschau has jumped $3,000, from
$12,000 to $15,000.  Next year, the gallery plans to give the
artist a one-man show.

But even at the gallery, the aeros' mysteries stubbornly refuse to
yield to either commerce or art history.  Two weeks ago, Romano
received a call from a Houston UFO fan named Alexander who claims
he's got Dellschau all figured out.  Alexander, of course, refused
to leave his phone number.

------------------------------------------------
(C) 1998 New Times, Inc. All rights reserved.
------------------------------------------------

To see images of some of the Dellschau paintings, visit:

http://www2.awa.com/artnet/artnetweb/rmgallery/dell/index.html

===============================================================

--

PROJECT 1947                        |  E-Mail:
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/   |  legion@mira.net





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   Dec > Dec 12

                        Re: WTS Magazine for December

From: WTS org <wtsorg@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 22:17:45 PST
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 07:08:15 -0500
Subject: Re: WTS Magazine for December


First of all, the staff of WTS Magazine would like to thank
everyone for coming to our website at:

http://www.watchtheskies.org

and supporting our efforts thus far. We owe Errol a special
thank you for recommending WTS Magazine to the Updates list
several weeks ago.

We have received some very encouraging praise, and it appears
that beyond the wild UFOlogical fringe exists a growing
sentiment of discontent over how UFOlogy is progressing.

If you belong to the often silent group which harbors this
sentiment, come to

http://www.watchtheskies.org

Read the articles, and if we inspire you in any way, dust off
your keyboard and contribute one of your own. What is wrong with
Ufological research? What is right? These are some of the issues
we'd like you to explore.

WTS Magazine is currently featuring the following articles:

"When Stars Become UFOs" by Tim Printy. From our first
contributor (thanks Tim!) comes a look at the role of
astronomical objects in UFO sightings.

"The Lunatic Fringe" by Rod Brock. Our editor relates the recent
December 7th "prediction" that has inundated the Internet to the
1997 Hale-Bopp fiasco.

Also:

Bill Stockstill's review of "Casebook on the Men in Black" by
Jim Keith, your chance to send us feedback, and our editorial
and submissions policy.

If you missed the last edition, a new archives section is in the
works and should be up soon.

Thanks again, and we hope you come and visit.

The Staff of WTS Magazine
http://www.watchtheskies.org








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   Dec > Dec 12

               -=[For The Record]=- P-47: Real Disinformation

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@CYBERZONE.NET>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:28:59 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 07:33:05 -0500
Subject: -=[For The Record]=- P-47: Real Disinformation


Jones, William E wrote:

>Setting the record straight certainly needs to be done, but it
>takes time, resources and funds away from the work that we would
>like to do. When I heard about the amazing amount of work that
>Rebecca Schatte did in exposing the alien autopsy movie, I was
>aghast. It was excellent work. How far could she have gotten on
>another more positive piece of work had she directed her
>attention that way? Who knows? Maybe she would have found "the
>secret." But, her work was needed to fend off the charlatans of
>the world, and I am glad that she did it. Too bad it was needed,
>but that's part of life.

>Bill Jones


>>From: Edoardo Russo [SMTP:edoardo.russo@TORINO.ALPCOM.IT]
>>Sent: Friday, December 11, 1998 5:43 AM
>>To:   PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
>>Subject:      Re: Invalid CIA Memo

>>At 20.07 10/12/98 -0800, Brad Sparks wrote:

>It gets so tiresome year after year to have to set the record
>straight on CIA's involvement with UFO's just because no one
>takes the trouble to actually read and UNDERSTAND the CIA
>documents that have been released.


>>No: you must not feel tired to try and set the record straight,
>>again and again.

>>That's a burden you (we) have, in order to keep the flag of
>>serious ufology up in the opposing wind of nonsense that is
>>prevailing but is not (we should not let it to be) ufology in
>>the strictest sense.

>>Truth and sanity are not easy to maintain and proclaim, when you
>>are in the UFO field, but why should we leave OUR subject in the
>>hands of present-day money-makers, lunatics, fanatics and the
>>like, without opposing them?

>>That's something worthy of a continuing struggle.



Greetings List

I think Bill Jones is correct.  We spend a lot of time trying to
set the record straight.  For those of us who try to do this we
suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous criticism.  However,
it is necessary from time to time to try to set the record
straight. I feel it is my duty to go out there and occasionally
take abuse for asking embarrassing questions of the UFO crazies.
I also think it is necessary to take up valuable bandwidth here
discussing the latest sensation.  And it is sometimes necessary
to meet these people on their own venue and try to demonstrate a
rational approach to UFO problem. Sometimes, the critical
approach rubs off on a few individuals.

We are hopefully interested in a wider audience then just a few
hundred 'ufologists'.  Academia and High Culture are convinced
that UFOs are the interest of cult-ish, paranormal, X-philes,
gullible, credulous individuals.  We are swept up into the
general perception of the majority of the UFO field.  (BTW I
think your singling out of Rebecca for mention is appropriate.
She is a real stand up person. Our own John Stepkowski also
worked hard on AA.)

I don't blame Academia or High Culture for their perception.
Just review the current history of UFO craziness:

  Hale-Bopp object
  Heaven's Gate
  Corso
  Alien Autopsy
  American Computer Company
  Roswell Summer
  Mass Landings
  and now the new MJ-12 documents.

And dozens of other minor ones.

The UFO field has the characteristics of a drug addict, it needs
ever higher jags of sensationalism to keep the interest.  The
slow process of collecting, sifting, and analyzing the evidence
is no longer of interest.

We are constantly treated to weird ideas that if not answered
take on a life of their own.  Recently on UFO UpDates it was
alleged, without credible evidence, that Sherm Larson and J.
Allen Hynek were government agents.  The evidence seems to
depend on the idea that little has been accomplished in the last
50 years and that both Hynek and Larson once worked for the
government.  Such ideas emanate from someone whose knowledge
comes from the paperback books he 'reads' on the intelligence
services.

Let's just suppose that Sherm Larson, and Hynek were government
agents. So what?  What can they do to influence the field?  The
whole of NICAP's, CUFOS' and others' files contain no
information that the CIA could not get just by visiting offices
and asking to look at the files. NICAP could never pay the bills
even with 15,000 members; not because of CIA interference, but
because Major Keyhoe was not much of a business man.  The CIA
does not have a lock on the tremendous amount of information
available to the public if they want to start collecting it. As
Vallee once said, amateur astronomers may not have elaborate
equipment or access to large funds, but they can still do
astronomy.

The real disinformation agents do not work for the CIA, or
government. They can be found everyday on the web and on 'Art
Bell' making ridiculous and insupportable claims that would
drive away anyone applying a little critical thinking or basic
logic.

This trash does take away from valuable research time!  Perhaps
we need to come out with a set of standards of evidence, and
whenever craziness is offered, someone needs to post the
standards and ask how the new sensation meets the standards for
evidence.

Best regards,

Jan
--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
Telephone: (860) 546-9135









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   Dec > Dec 12

                          WTS Magazine for December

From: WTS org <wtsorg@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 22:17:45 PST
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 07:33:47 -0500
Subject: WTS Magazine for December


First of all, the staff of WTS Magazine would like to thank
everyone for coming to our website at:

http://www.watchtheskies.org

and supporting our efforts thus far. We owe Errol a special
thank you for recommending WTS Magazine to the Updates list
several weeks ago.

We have received some very encouraging praise, and it appears
that beyond the wild UFOlogical fringe exists a growing
sentiment of discontent over how UFOlogy is progressing.

If you belong to the often silent group which harbors this
sentiment, come to

http://www.watchtheskies.org

Read the articles, and if we inspire you in any way, dust off
your keyboard and contribute one of your own. What is wrong with
Ufological research? What is right? These are some of the issues
we'd like you to explore.

WTS Magazine is currently featuring the following articles:

"When Stars Become UFOs" by Tim Printy. From our first
contributor (thanks Tim!) comes a look at the role of
astronomical objects in UFO sightings.

"The Lunatic Fringe" by Rod Brock. Our editor relates the recent
December 7th "prediction" that has inundated the Internet to the
1997 Hale-Bopp fiasco.

Also:

Bill Stockstill's review of "Casebook on the Men in Black" by
Jim Keith, your chance to send us feedback, and our editorial
and submissions policy.

If you missed the last edition, a new archives section is in the
works and should be up soon.

Thanks again, and we hope you come and visit.

The Staff of WTS Magazine
http://www.watchtheskies.org






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Dec > Dec 12

                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 00:18:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 07:40:34 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: How To Film An Abduction
>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 01:37:16 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>In a long ago post (here, I think) I tried to create a list of
>suggestions for possible evidence gathering from abductions. If
>anyone is interested, I could repost.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to see it.

Greg Sandow






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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 02:40:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 07:52:20 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:48:13 -0500

>>Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 23:20:15 -0500
>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

>>>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>>>Date: Tues, 8 Dec 1998 00:25:46 -0500

 <see archive for preceeding posts>

>Can these questions help evaluate the work of any individual?

>Hardly, I presume.

>Serge Salvaille

Serge,

The questions will be recognized by anyone familiar with the
standard means by which individuals are evaluated by their peers
for academic tenure, a common measure of academic and
intellectual achievement used in colleges and universities
throughout the United States.

Gee Serge they work for them but not for you?

Gary





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                   Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:52:07 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 07:55:48 -0500
Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet


>Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 21:47:06 -0600 (CST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: New MJ-12 Documents on the Internet

>Bond,

>It appears that I'm going to have to seriously increase my
>carrot intake, too. That, or get a larger monitor (or both).
>I've just checked out the latest images posted by Neil on his
>web site, and I'll be damned if I can see what he's talking
>about half the time. The so-called "wire-harness," for example,
>completely eludes me, but I'll keep trying!

>Gnat Rorschach


Dennis,

Thanks for your interest.

Did you double-click on the small images on the web pages?

If you do you should get the full-sized images downloaded to
your screen, then use the "back" button to return to the web
page.

The thumbnail images on the web pages have been kept small in
order to keep the page loading time over the net as quick as
possible. I know I get totally "chuffed off" by the time many
graphics-bloated pages take to load across the "electronic
super-dirt-track", but I have tried to leave enough detail in
the thumbnails to give an impression of content whilst still
offering the option of downloading the full image if it's
required.

I didn't want to force extreamly large image downloads
and the extended time they would take.

Best Regards Neil.


-------------------------------------------------------

Neil Morris@Home.
Email:             Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk






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                 Pentagon Dubs Cyberspace A Key Battlefield

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:22:08 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 08:06:52 -0500
Subject: Pentagon Dubs Cyberspace A Key Battlefield


[List only]

Source: Federal Computer Week. URL:

http://www.fcw.com:80/pubs/fcw/1998/1207/fcw-newscyber-12-7-98.html

FCW calls itself "the leader in providing news and analysis to
the federal information technology community."

Stig

*******

DECEMBER 7, 1998

Pentagon dubs cyberspace as key battlefield

BY BOB BREWIN (antenna@fcw.com)
AND DANIEL VERTON (dan_verton@fcw.com)

***

SAN DIEGO -- The Defense Department last week revealed its plan
for how the military services will carry out offensive and
defensive information operations in future wars -- a move that
holds wide-ranging implications for information systems.

The Joint Chiefs of Staff formally codified in October an
Information Operations (IO) doctrine when it endorsed a guidance
document called "Joint Publication 3-13," according to Daniel
Kuehl, chairman of the Information Operations Department, School
of Information Warfare and Strategy at the National Defense
University.

Kuehl said the new doctrine treats cyberspace as "a critical
environment [and] moves information operations from an ad hoc
process and institutionalizes it."

Although doctrinal publications are rarely visionary in nature,
" 'Joint Pub 3-13' was clearly written with Joint Vision 2010 in
mind," Kuehl said. Joint Vision 2010 is a DOD effort to create
seamless battlefield communications across the services. "This
[new document] institutionalizes a process for looking at IO as
a strategy and makes it part of the planning process for all
joint [military] plans."

"Our ability to conduct peacetime theater engagement, to
forestall or prevent crisis and conflict, and to fight and win
is critically dependent on effective IO at all levels of war and
across the range of military operations," wrote Army Gen. Henry
Shelton, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, in his introduction to
"Joint Doctrine for Information Operations." Shelton said that
IO, which includes both offensive and defensive information
warfare operations, is as crucial to the national defense as
air, land or naval operations.

Offensive IO will include such existing military operations as
psychological operations, electronic warfare, physical attacks
or destruction of enemy information systems, special information
operations "and may include computer network attack," Shelton
said. The doctrine foresees offensive IO conducted "at all
levels of war -- strategic, operational and tactical --
throughout the battlespace," he said.

The doctrine broadens the definition of an adversary, including
not only attacks by a known enemy state but also any IO threat
"that is organized, resourced and politically sponsored [and]
motivated to affect decision-makers," including hackers,
criminals and organized crime, industrial and economic
espionage, and in some cases, terrorism, Shelton said.

"This threat requires monitoring for indications of a specific
IO threat and subsequently may require additional IO defensive
measures," according to Shelton.

DOD plans to give primary responsibility for information
operations to the joint commands, such as the Atlantic Command,
the Pacific Command and the Central Command and their
subordinate Joint Task Forces. The doctrine calls for the Joint
Force Commands to staff so-called IO cells, with staff being
drawn from existing combatant commands.

The National Security Agency, the Defense Intelligence Agency
and the Defense Information Systems Agency will support IO for
the combatant commands and the Joint Staff. The DIA will be
given the responsibility of selecting key offensive IO targets,
help combat commanders develop a command intelligence
architecture to support IO and detect IO attacks in cooperation
with DISA.

DISA will be charged with protecting the Defense Information
Infrastructure, and the NSA will provide information security
and operational security products as well as analyze the
vulnerability and threats to U.S. and allied information
systems. On the operational side, the Special Forces Command was
directed to begin IO training and "organize forces with
capabilities to conduct IO...across the range of military
operations," Shelton said.

A Pentagon source said the Joint Chiefs have put an "intense"
effort behind the newly established Joint Task Force for
Computer Network Defense, which is located in DISA's Global
Security Operations Center. In addition, the newly prescribed
doctrine may pave the way for use of the reserves in a homeland
cyberdefense role, the source said.

Lt. Col. Kathleen Harrison, director of the Command and Control
Branch of the Doctrine Division at the Marine Corps' Combat
Development Command, Quantico, Va., said no great policy changes
have taken place yet in light of the new doctrine guidance.
However, Harrison said the Navy and Marine Corps plan to issue
in the summer a Naval Command and Control Warfare Doctrine
publication, which will consider the new guidance published by
the JCS.





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               Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

From: Kal Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 06:54:23 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 08:41:34 -0500
Subject: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.


Dear List,

As many of you know, there have been rumors floating around in
the media about this Fox special for months. Indeed, noneother
than Meier himself stepped forward, and because of this special,
confessed that dozens more of his UFO & UFO-related photos are
hoaxes. He did this months ago.

This is just the beginning, I assure you, as more exposes are
due out by other major media outlets, involving Roswell, MJ-12,
the Russian 'KGB UFO Crash', and several prominent UFO
'investigators', and researchers. Some of these people know who
they are, and know it is only a matter of time.

Those who study UFOs, Bigfoot, Alien Autopsy, Meier, the Loch
Ness Monster, etc., owe a tremendous gratitiude to Mr. Bob
Kiviat, who had the journalisitic integrity and drive to hire a
crew that could and has finally solved these cases, and others.
The _truth_ is what mattered, and we got those truths.

As you all know, ironcially thanks to Billy Meier himself in his
public statements, I was involved heavily in this show, and in
Europe, and I can truthfully speak for my staff and myself at
TotalResearch when I say it was an honor and privilege for us to
work with Mr. Kiviat in helping find these truths.

As we approach the new millenium, the time has come to start
bringing accountability into the UFO and paranormal fields, and
to do everything to help ensure that we separate 'fact from
ficiton", as Bob Kiviat often says, and most certainly means.

I know many of you share this opinion, and the proof will be in
our deliverables and subsequent actions, such as this Fox
special. After it airs, we need not waste any more time or
resources on these cases anymore and can focus our efforts to
try and present our 'best case/evidence' to the media -- while
we still have their attention and, hopefully, before they fail
to take us seriously at all.

The choice is ours.

Enclosed is the Official Fox Press Release Below, and it can be
found at www.foxworld.com/pressroom.htm

I look forward to your comments and feedback.

Email me at: Totlresrch@aol.com

Sincerely yours,

Kal Korff

-----

The Greatest Myths On Earth To Be Exposed In The All-New Special
World'S Greatest Hoaxes: Secrets Finally Revealed' Dec. 28 On
FOX

Lance Henriksen ('Millennium') Narrates An In-Depth Look At
Bigfoot, The Loch Ness Monster, The Alien Autopsy And UFO
Sightings

Never-before-seen footage and new technological evidence will
expose the truths behind the most sensational of legends --
Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, the Alien Autopsy and Flying
Saucers -- in the original special WORLD'S GREATEST HOAXES:
SECRETS FINALLY REVEALED Monday, Dec. 28 (8:00-9:00 PM ET/PT) on
FOX. Lance Henriksen ('Millennium') narrates.

For many years, believers and skeptics have debated the fact or
fiction behind films and videos supposedly showing legendary
beings and unexplained phenomena -- on earth and in space. This
special details the who, why and how of the most sensational
material ever caught on tape. In each case, informants, experts
and modern technology expose the truths behind these myths.

Bigfoot -- for more than 30 years, this creature allegedly
spotted in the Pacific Northwest has captivated the world.
Skeptics, however, now believe that amazing footage of the
seven-foot-tall legendary beast caught disappearing into the
woods in 1967 was actually created by a film company to gain
interest in other nature movies it was making. In an exclusive
interview, a man with inside knowledge breaks three decades of
silence to reveal compelling reasons why this film is thought to
be an elaborate hoax. In addition, experts also explain why two
more recently shot Bigfoot videos are also blatant frauds.

The Loch Ness Monster -- a 1936 newsreel of a dinosaur-like
creature seen in the waters of Scotland started this legend and
has held the world in fright for more than 60 years. In 1977,
new pictures of the sea monster provided evidence of its
existence that seemed too good to be true. The special reveals
why these startling pictures are fake and offers insight on how
easy it is to create a hoax, simulating a modern-day sea monster
video.

The Alien Autopsy -- In 1995, footage of an alien autopsy
supposedly taken at Roswell in 1947 came to the public's eye and
was showcased in the highly-rated FOX special 'Alien Autopsy:
Fact Or Fiction?' Now, for the first time anywhere, one of the
actors who took part in staging the alien autopsy ruse steps
forward, and all-new footage and NASA-type video enhancements
shed new light on how one of the biggest hoaxes of all time was
actually accomplished. Also, other inside sources and top
professionals dispute the authenticity of the famed autopsy,
exposing further secrets about the origin of the footage.

UFO Sightings -- These are the most frequent and universally
believed phenomenal occurrences. The special reveals how the
most incredible footage of flying saucers ever shot -- filmed by
Swiss farmer Billy Meier, the best-known advocate of the
sightings -- constitutes the longest-running UFO hoax on record.
Top experts, and Meier's own ex-wife, explain how the sharp,
daylight films were created -- using models and everyday
household items. Also featured is a rare interview with Meier
himself, who defends his world-famous footage despite the
massive evidence against him.

Robert Kiviat, executive producer of Alien Autopsy: Fact Or
Fiction?, is executive producer of World'S Greatest Hoaxes:
Secrets Finally Revealed for Kiviat Productions, Inc.





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                  Strange Videotape: Missile Chases Meteor?

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 08:10:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:02:03 -0500
Subject: Strange Videotape: Missile Chases Meteor?


An interesting videotape was recorded on November 16, 1998 courtesy of
Mr. James DeVoy of Port Charlotte, Florida.

The videotape depicts two oddities; one meteoric object resembling a
flaming, fan-shaped contrail which slowly descends to earth followed
shortly by a missile-like object streaking across the sky.

The footage is currently under review by DATELINE: NBC and has been
twice reported by the SUN HERALD newspaper. Additional witnesses to
the event have been located.

This videotape, two news articles and additional details of this
happening can be reviewed at:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/


December 12, 1998
Kenny Young
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/





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              ET Civilizations: Coming Of Age In The Milky Way

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:23:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:17:46 -0500
Subject: ET Civilizations: Coming Of Age In The Milky Way


[List only]

Source:

http://www.flatoday.com:80/space/today/121198a.htm

Stig

*******

FLORIDA TODAY Space Online

"Planet Earth's best source for online space news"

For Dec. 11, 1998

Extraterrestrial civilizations: Coming of age in the Milky Way

A Space Telescope Science Institute news release

***

If civilizations exist around other stars they are likely to be
just emerging across our galaxy right now: like an apple orchard
suddenly maturing and ripening in the autumn sun. So concludes
Space Telescope Science Institute theorist Mario Livio, in a
paper to be published in the Astrophysical Journal.

Livio emphasizes that his theoretical work doesn't necessarily
mean extraterrestrial civilizations really do exist, but it
shows they cannot be dismissed either. We would be a lonely,
isolated quirk of cosmic evolution if intelligent life forms
appear on a planet at some random time in the parent star's
life, say some theorists. Instead, Livio makes the case for a
possible causal link between the sun's lifetime and the
appearance of intelligent life on Earth. This link should hold
true for sun-like stars elsewhere in the universe: offering an
equal opportunity for intelligent life to arise elsewhere in
space.

The second part of his case is based on the possibility that
carbon - the fundamental building block of life as we know it -
may not have been widely available until the universe was about
half its present age. This means that, given the added billions
of years more required for biological evolution, intelligent
carbon-based life didn't make an appearance any earlier than
roughly three billion years ago.

He points out that before the universe could make life like us,
it has to make carbon atoms. The carbon was created by nuclear
fusion in the hearts of early stars, and then ejected when the
stars lost their outer gas layers and left their cores behind as
white dwarfs.

Livio calculates that carbon production may have peaked only two
billion years before the sun and Earth formed, based on
estimates of the star formation rate made with Hubble Telescope
and other ground-based telescopes. Though life first emerged on
Earth a few hundred million years after its formation, it took a
vastly longer time - nearly three billion years - for the first
multi-celled organisms to appear. It took almost another billion
years before life emerged from the sea onto the land. The
earliest humans appeared less than four million years ago - at
about the halfway point in our sun's lifetime. If this were
purely coincidental, other theoreticians have argued, then it
would take much longer than the life of a star for most
civilizations to arise. And so it would be unlikely
extraterrestrial civilization would come about at all. We would
be alone in the universe: reduced to a novelty - or accident -
of the cosmos.

Because sunlight provides far more energy for life than other
chemical processes, biological evolution is intimately linked to
the sun's behavior, Livio maintains. For example, the complex
evolution of our atmosphere is interrelated with the sun.

Our planet's atmosphere had to develop ozone to block out
destructive UV radiation from the sun before animals could
emerge on the land Likewise, he says, other civilizations should
have emerged not much sooner or later than about halfway through
their parent star's life cycle. That is, around stars like our
sun, or slightly cooler, that live healthy long stable lives and
release enough energy to nurture life on accompanying planets.

If Livio is correct, and the galaxy may be blooming with new
civilizations, then where are they? Why haven't they visited us?
Livio cautions that his work does not prove the existence of
extraterrestrial civilizations, but points out that earlier
conclusions that they do not exist may be premature. He says
that that it's also risky to think civilizations would colonize
the galaxy. "This assumes we have even the vaguest understanding
of the psychology of extraterrestrial civilizations." He adds:
"It's impossible to imagine the thinking of a civilization which
might have evolved a million of years ahead of humans. We could
be about as uninteresting to them as an amoeba is to us. Actual
proof will have to await advances in biology and astronomy."
Generation Space Telescope, to be launched in the year 2007.


Use of this site signifies your agreement to the Terms of
Service updated February 1998.

Please e-mail comments or questions about Space Online to Editor
Mark DeCotis.

Contact Space Online Manager Jim Banke to inquire about becoming
a sponsor.

This World Wide Web site is copyright =A9 1998 FLORIDA TODAY.






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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:52:25 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 10:22:36 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 02:40:19 -0500
>Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 07:52:20 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>>Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:48:13 -0500

Previously, Serge offered this response to a series of questions
Gary proposed regarding Hynek and Larsen:

>>Can these questions help evaluate the work of any individual?

>>Hardly, I presume.

As anyone that's followed this thread knows, the critical
examination that Gary feels is essential in judging Hynek and
Larsen can be applied to anyone attempting to push their
concepts into the limelight of reason. Within that context,
Serge presented a very logical argument that what's good for the
gander is good for the goose, namely Gary Alevy.

Typically, instead of answering the very same questions that
would shed light on his own standing within the reasoning
process, Gary offered this artful dodge:

>The questions will be recognized by anyone familiar with the
>standard means by which individuals are evaluated by their peers
>for academic tenure, a common measure of academic and
>intellectual achievement used in colleges and universities
>throughout the United States.

>Gee Serge they work for them but not for you?

What is this, Gary? A PeeWee Herman exchange?

"I know you are but what am I?"

To date, Gary seems intent on posing questions only and not
answering them. Following is my response to his post in, yet,
another thread he started regarding Hynek and Larsen in which he
stated:

>Now, we can be smart, or we can be stupid. We can put our head
>in the sands or we can wake up and look around. We can take
>people at absolute face value in spite of their backgrounds and
>actions, or we can do some analysis and vetting.

My response:

>You're absolutely correct, Gary. So, let's start with you...

>First off, what background do you possess that gives more
>credibility to the claims you keep making regarding the
>subversive nature of Hynek and Larsen?

<snip>

(see archives for the remainder of my response)

It should be noted that the thread "UFOs and the Real World",
initiated by Gary has had, as of this writing, only one
respondent.

Me.

Despite such a limited response, Gary has found it impossible to
answer the above, single question; just as he has avoided the
questions posed by Serge Salvaille or Jerry Clark or Ted Viens.

Instead, he engages in the very definition that he proposes
constitutes "propaganda", namely repetition of "facts" that are
not facts at all, claims that can not be substantiated, guilt by
association and guilt by lack of performance. All of these
pieces are then barely held together by a mortar of guess work
and inuendo.

When members of this list began to disagree with his concepts,
Gary immediately launched into "conspiracy" mode, labeling the
members a "tag team".

Is this your idea of debate, Gary?

I understand that you are trying to launch a new book on the
subject. I truly wish you the best of luck. But I feel a sense
of unease that, should the book buying public (like members on
this list) not agree with your concepts, the "tag team
conspirators" will then be behind every tree and every rock.

On the other hand, your concepts could simply be wrong.

Later,
Roger Evans





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                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 08:24:43 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:57:31 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: How To Film An Abduction
>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 01:37:16 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: How To Film An Abduction
>>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:49:53 -0600

>>An extremely strong type of double-sided tape, possibly the type
>>used to secure carpeting to the floor, could be purchased in a
>>few square feet and secured to the ground on a proper location
>>to entrap an intruder (especially a feeble li'l grey).  We've
>>dubbed this the "alien-paper" method.

>It's not necessary to capture the creature, when such a method
>could yield unusual material from its feet.

>Of course, the problem remains that not all abductors are
>reported to touch the floor.

>In a long ago post (here, I think) I tried to create a list of
>suggestions for possible evidence gathering from abductions. If
>anyone is interested, I could repost.

>I'd point out that many of the things which can be done are well
>within the capabilities of modern forensics and are, thus, quite
>practical.


Dear Mark:

The idea of trying various clever or novel ways to capture
an 'alien' on film is not only amusing, but intriguing really.

I presume the following:

1)  They know we would love to do this.

2)  They aren't about to allow it.

3)  They are 2 or 3 steps ahead of any predictable steps
we may undertake to do so.

These presumptions are based on the single fact that nobody,
after all this time,  has a single credible photo of an alien;
let alone an autopsy for heavens sake.

The trick as I see it is to do something unpredictable,  and
to remove all signs of a trap.

I suggest the following bewildering steps,  and must apologise
for the lack of useful details.

1)  Find some way to attract UFOs and/or aliens.  [ repeat
abductees need merely wait .. ]

1a)  Do NOT tell me or anyone else what the plan is ahead
of time.    There's no telling who is listening.

2)  Find some way to capture images, sounds, any and all
evidence of the event, the vehicle .. the beings if possible

2a)  Same as 1a above.

3)  IF you should actually get some good evidence / data
(whatever),  attract a crowd under some other ruse, and
be surrounded with people until you can deliver the goods
to someone you trust .. hopefully some serious investigators.

Advise them (privately) to do the same.   Never let the
evidence out of your sight.   Ensure a constant continuous
trail of accountability, with multiple witnesses at every step.

4)  Prepare to get flamed.

Best wishes

-  Larry Hatch

=  =  =  =  =







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                 Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 11:28:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:59:43 -0500
Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field


>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 02:40:19 -0500
>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>Subject: Re: The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
>>Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:48:13 -0500

>The questions will be recognized by anyone familiar with the
>standard means by which individuals are evaluated by their peers
>for academic tenure, a common measure of academic and
>intellectual achievement used in colleges and universities
>throughout the United States.

>Gee Serge they work for them but not for you?

Not what I said.

The "find and replace" operation suggested that almost every
person working in the field of ufology would fail your
questionnaire.  So would almost every UFO review.  So would
almost every UFO organization.

You were saying that Hynek's career should be judged in light of
your questions.  I suggested that you apply the same standards
to yourself and thus reflect on the pertinence of evaluating
individuals with arguably superficial criteria.

Strangely enough, the criteria you use to judge Hynek's impact
on ufology are the criteria used to allegedly evaluate the same
people who have sidetracked ufology from the beginning.

Serge Salvaille






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             Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 11:45:29 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:02:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.


>From: Kal Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 06:54:23 EST
>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

>Dear List,

>Those who study UFOs, Bigfoot, Alien Autopsy, Meier, the Loch
>Ness Monster, etc., owe a tremendous gratitiude to Mr. Bob
>Kiviat, who had the journalisitic integrity and drive to hire a
>crew that could and has finally solved these cases, and others.
>The _truth_ is what mattered, and we got those truths.

Excuse me, is this the _same_ Bob Kiviat who, filled with
"journalistic integrity," brought us the Alien Autopsy in the
first place? Are we to give him more credence for this show,
"Greatest Myths," than we were to his first production? What
bothers me about your post is the blanket conclusions you appear
to draw. I for one do not believe you can dismiss Roswell
because someone produced a bogus Alien Autopsy film, or the
possibility that Bigfoot exists because a filmmaker believes the
Patterson film was faked, or that the Loch Ness sightings have
been mistaken because one man 60 years ago faked a photograph.

That kind of blanket conclusion would force us to reject the
notion of air travel, since Hollywood produced the hilarious
film "Airplane!"

>After it airs, we need not waste any more time or >resources on
these cases anymore and can focus our efforts to >try and
present our 'best case/evidence' to the media -- while >we still
have their attention and, hopefully, before they fail >to take
us seriously at all.

If that is Mr. Korff's personal aim, fine and good luck.
Certainly, Billy Meier has not absorbed much of today's UFO
researchers' time. I suppose he also considers that the
production "solved these cases" because they relied on him for
an answer.

Regards,





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                            Alfred's Odd Ode #284

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 11:22:23 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:16:10 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #284


Apology to MW #284 (For December 12, 1998)

I hear the *strangest* music, but its _satisfying_ beat shall
absolve me of my shamefulness, and provides a sane retreat.
Absolution's in the _looking_ for my song, whatever's found, in
a universe of wonder far beyond the mere profound! All one does
is look about them at the notes that fall their way; most are
notes of utter selfishness to complicate your day. It's a
_concert_ of confusion for the ones that keep it stoked with an
unelected government that _exists_ to blow the smoke. It's music
badly written, by _design_ misusing notes! It disrespects your
happiness, and it dashes all your hopes. But listen to its
voices, for they blend in ways unplanned. A glimmer of the truth
projects -- you begin to understand.

The HORNS are played by News folk, and their key is flat and
dull; it crushes out a solo that's the focus of it all. They
move the tune along alright, you'd almost think they care, but
it comes up short of climax -- their music's never *there*. John
Swinton blew the clearest note; he had to drink to do it -- he
knew that they had _all_ sold out, and blew a tune into it. He
hit the righteous high notes, the music sweet and clear; he
should have been a front man, and sang them far and near. But we
just rolled our blind eyes up, pretended a mistake -- awaiting
_safer_ music that we lapped up for our fate.

The STRINGS are played by charmless priests that moan their
shallow dirge. They play upon the guilt produced in notes that
they encourage. They whip us with their hair shirt bows, and cut
us with their strings. They fleece from their respective flocks,
and dole it out to kings. They plucked their movements made from
gut (church members weep and wail!). They whimper hopeless
harmonies to a future where we FAIL! They don't police their
ranks at all, and do us ALL so wrong. Their songs are rank
extortion built to string us all along! These songs are _self_
enriching and produce an _easy_ wealth for the many that just
flat cash in, eroding mental health.

The REEDS are paid politicos who can whistle from their stumps
just _exactly_ what you want to hear -- you're just the paying
chump. They listen to the horns and strings, then harshly play
their spins of things. On gravy trains they'd rather be, they
laugh at you and promise -- tease! They keep a hand within your
pocket lifting cash and key's or lockets --looting for the stuff
they buy, and can't or won't, then, meet your eye! Reeds split
off like errant missiles! "Truth at last"(!), you cheer and
whistle! But these are reeds soon locked away if they refuse
their piece to play! Johnny Ford is _such_ a reed (I hope that,
soon, he shall be freed. . .)!

An unpleasant cacophony, this mixture of strings -- of brass or
of reeds and more *curious* things. The movement is hollow, it
is tuneless -- discordant; it settles for short term and forgets
long importance. It limps through its song like it's missing the
notes. Forbidden to play them (?) songs sound like a joke. And
who's this *Forbidder*?  Who conducts from the shadows? Who's
the arranger -- this snake without glasnost? What is _his_ end,
and how is it measured. Who wins again (?); whose nest has it
feathered?

Good music it's not, but its beat is _still_ good -- as the
notes that _AREN'T_ played are a symphony's fugue! And that's
your paid ticket! You hear what's NOT there! The music is better
(trades Flintstone for Astaire <g>)! Hear your _own_ music!
Refuse to connive! Look for the sweet notes! Be on guard for the
jive. Make new connections and wake up refreshed! Tolerate more
that the MORE MAY BE BLESSED! _There's_ absolution! And what did
we find? That their music's awful, but _your_ music's fine!
Absolution's in the _looking_ for the truth, _whatever's found_,
in our universe of wonder _far_ beyond the mere profound.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Bip.Boop.Bop - but'-ton, dada--dada!
Bip.Boop.Bop - but'-ton, dada--dada!
Bip.Boop.Bop - but'-ton, dada--dada  (Poo)!

Bip.Boop.Bop - but'-ton, dada--dada!
Bip.Boop.Bop - but'-ton, dada--dada!
Bip.Boop.Bop - but'-ton, dada--dada  (Boo)!

Bu-dot, but ot in dada!  - - Tink! Tink!
Bu-dot, but ot in dada!  - - Tink! Tink!
Bu-dot, but ot in dada!  - - Tink! Tink! <Truth>

Bip.Boop.Bop - but'-ton, dada--dada!
Bip.Boop.Bop - but'-ton, dada--dada!
Bip.Boop.Bop - but'-ton, dada--dada  (Boom)!

Restore John Ford!

--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 12 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $100.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.






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              Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:25:03 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 21:19:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo


Good Morning, all -

>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 13:04:29 +0100
>Subject: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo


<snip>

>In a similar photo from the same news conference, an officer
>appears to be wearing the insignia of different ranks: His
>jacket belongs to a colonel, but his shirt signifies he was a
>major.

This makes no sense to me. I don't see any officers in the
photographs who are wearing a jacket (blouse in military terms)
other than General Ramey. He has brigadier general stars on his
shoulders and no insignia on his shirt. The Army unlike the
Marine Corps, does not wear insignia on the shirt used under the
blouse. The collar insignia are worn on the khaki shirts, one
side with the branch insignia and the other with the rank. I
wonder if there isn't confusion here between the Air Corps
insignia and the major's leak.

BTW, you shouldn't say press conference because that seems to
irritate Dr. Johnson. He is of the opinion that only he was ever
in Ramey's office and no one else spoke to Ramey on July 8.

And as long as I'm causing trouble, I should point out that the
cap and the tie on the radiator probably belonged to Ramey and
not to Marcel. It is clear to me that there is a star on the cap
and not a major's leaf.

Just having some Christmas fun.

KRandle






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             Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:56:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 09:32:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.


>From: Kal Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 06:54:23 EST
>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

<snip>

Kal,

>As we approach the new millenium, the time has come to start
>bringing accountability into the UFO and paranormal fields, and
>to do everything to help ensure that we separate 'fact from
>ficiton", as Bob Kiviat often says, and most certainly means.

Amen and 10-4 on that one.

Fiction is, in this field, sometimes a matter of point of view
(Roswell, MJ-12 for instance), sometimes a matter of making
money (FOX's diffusion of the AA film 3 years ago), sometimes a
matter of exploiting people's gullibility (the Meier case
probably).

The last time you posted something on the List, you seemed to be
in quite a hurry and did not have the time to get deeper into
any subject.

I am sure everybody is interested in facts.  You have already
taken your stance on what is _fiction_, I will not dispute that.

Could you summarize your position on the _facts_ pertaining to
the subject of UFOs?... Not to ufology nor to ufologists mind
you, but to UFOs.

Any future plans with Kiviat on coming forward with some of
those facts?

Eagerly awaiting your response,

Serge Salvaille





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                            Re: No Alien Landing

From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:23:56 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 09:37:48 -0500
Subject: Re: No Alien Landing


>Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:26:38 +0000
>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk>
>Subject: No Alien Landing

>Dear Errol,

>The following appeared in the uk.rec.ufo newsgroup:

>From: "harvest" <harvest@harvest-trust.org>
>Newsgroups: uk.rec.ufo
>Subject: No Alien Landing
>Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:13:33 -0700

>EQ-Pegasi - No Alien Landing

>by William Cooper

Dear Errol and List,

I have had a follow up e-mail to the newgroup article I posted
to the list, an extract of which follows:

   "I hope that you are not recommending "Harvest Trust" website
   as a place for people to find information of any significance.
   He is not much different than Art Bell, the man he is on some
   kind of a vendetta about.  Please visit the website before you
   recommend it."

Can I take this opportunity to state that I was not and did not
recommend the "Harvest Trust" website.

I do not see that forwarding an article implies that I, or
anyone else who forwards a message, supports that point of
view/website/whatever.....what would that imply for Errol :-)

Best wishes,


John Hayes

jhayes@cableinet.co.uk
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com
UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/
Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/
UFOICQ Australian UFO Reports and Experiences:-
        http://ufoinfo.com/ufoicq/








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                          Re: The Goldwater Letters

From: Sean Jones <Tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:13:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 09:27:30 -0500
Subject: Re: The Goldwater Letters



>Date: 11 Dec 98 19:43:00 CET
>From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: The Goldwater Letters
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>So you mean... we all should meet in July 2001, the first year
>of the new Millenium, in Washington to demand the truth about a
>certain Space Odyssey?

>So you mean... we all, the betrayed ones from all over the
>world, should meet in Washington to declare that we, The People,
>have a right to know  and that we then want to know?

>
Hi Errol, Hi All

I'm not one for the conspiracy theory or two but I'd like to
mention one little thing here that keeps occuring to me evry
time someone suggests that the gubbamint (Hi Jim) should come
clean about Woswell and et al. (typo intended)

With there having been so much investigation and conflicting
stories about the said event, and so many conflicting stories
and the suchlike "officially" sanctioned about the same said
event would "we" the great unwashed public know the truth from
fiction? Also since "we" have been "fed so many lies" would we
just be fed yet another? AND I am sure there are some die hard
ufoolagists who would insist no matter what was brought out it
was not _the_ Woswell debris that Jesse and co handled. And
finally just to ice the proverbial cake, I am also sure that
unless a crashed non-flying low aspect ratio saucer or delta
wing wing thingy type ufo was dragged out into the open there
would be some who stil claim "thats not _the Woswell debris,
give me the _real_ saucer".

Or am I just getting paranoid and confused?

---
    In an infinite universe inifinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
         Research page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/





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                 Re: MUFON SA and Cynthia Hind/UFO AFRINEWS

From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:27:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 09:41:50 -0500
Subject: Re: MUFON SA and Cynthia Hind/UFO AFRINEWS


>Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:19:01 +0000
>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk>
>Subject: MUFON SA and Cynthia Hind/UFO AFRINEWS


Dear Errol and List,

My apology for forgetting to include Cynthia Hind's e-mail
address it is:

gemini@icon.co.zw

Regards,


John Hayes

jhayes@cableinet.co.uk
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com
UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/
Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/
UFOICQ Australian UFO Reports and Experiences:-
        http://ufoinfo.com/ufoicq/






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                         Latest on RAF Henlow, P&SS

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 10:08:42 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 09:46:21 -0500
Subject: Latest on RAF Henlow, P&SS


Dear All,

Some people still believe that RAF Rudloe Manor houses the
Provost and Security Services HQ whereas the truth is different.
It it is now housed at RAF Henlow, as we announced four months
ago!

See our previous post!

"From the RAF web site;

http://www.raf.mod.uk/stations/gen_base.html

"RAF Henlow

Henlow has been a ground training base specialising in
electronics since the end of the Second World War. The Station
is now home to the RAF Central Signals Establishment, the Radio
Introduction Unit, Civilian Technical Training School and the
Headquarters P&SS UK RAF. In September of 1998, the RAF School
of Aviation Medicine will be moving to Henlow from its current
location at Farnborough. There is also one flying unit, No 616
Volunteer Gliding School operating Vigilant T1."

Ring the guard house at RAF Henlow on (01462) 851515 for
confirmation.

Not everything to do with P&SS is a major NWO conspiracy!!!! It
only ever had a minor role in the investigation of UFO
reports.......

Bye for now,

Tim Matthews.






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             Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:56:02 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 09:58:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.


>From: Kal Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 06:54:23 EST
>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

>Dear List,

>As many of you know, there have been rumors floating around in
>the media about this Fox special for months. Indeed, noneother
>than Meier himself stepped forward, and because of this special,
>confessed that dozens more of his UFO & UFO-related photos are
>hoaxes. He did this months ago.

Ok, but your unbridled, narrow minded, and completely undeserved
_gloat_, regarding an _unspoken_ assertion that "all things,
therefore, with regard to UFOs are BUNK", surfaces even here.
It's  why many of us (assuredly myself -- with some convinced
and unwavering certainty) cannot feel compelled to believe a
word you have to say.

>This is just the beginning, I assure you, as more exposes are
>due out by other major media outlets, involving Roswell, MJ-12,
>the Russian 'KGB UFO Crash', and several prominent UFO
>'investigators', and researchers. Some of these people know who
>they are, and know it is only a matter of time.

Still -- you criticize the state of a ufological art that, it is
_My_ estimation, you have worked passionately to discredit,
obscure, and de-legitimize. I throw your empty taunts and "I
told you so's" back into your smirking, arrogant, and
intellectually bankrupt face.

>Those who study UFOs, Bigfoot, Alien Autopsy, Meier, the Loch
>Ness Monster, etc., owe a tremendous gratitiude to Mr. Bob
>Kiviat, who had the journalisitic integrity and drive to hire a
>crew that could and has finally solved these cases, and others.
>The _truth_ is what mattered, and we got those truths.

He, like you, uses the protruding nose to deny the face. You are
not interested, sir, in exposing the hoax; you want to check a
few bad apples in a _very_ full barrel, and call the whole
barrel bad! A pox on ya'! Piss on the "truth" you've uncovered.
Your _expose'_ of these ufological questionables makes ME want
to go have another _look_ at them.

>As you all know, ironcially thanks to Billy Meier himself in his
>public statements, I was involved heavily in this show, and in
>Europe, and I can truthfully speak for my staff and myself at
>TotalResearch when I say it was an honor and privilege for us to
>work with Mr. Kiviat in helping find these truths.

<snort>

>As we approach the new millenium, the time has come to start
>bringing accountability into the UFO and paranormal fields, and
>to do everything to help ensure that we separate 'fact from
>ficiton", as Bob Kiviat often says, and most certainly means.

<snicker>

>I know many of you share this opinion, and the proof will be in
>our deliverables and subsequent actions, such as this Fox
>special. After it airs, we need not waste any more time or
>resources on these cases anymore and can focus our efforts to
>try and present our 'best case/evidence' to the media -- while
>we still have their attention and, hopefully, before they fail
>to take us seriously at all.

. . .As if you were the _least_ bit interested in "present[ing]
our 'best case/evidence' to the media." Why not, then, use the
money you've spent producing these canted, objectionable, and
obscene debunking documentaries, to present the _real_ evidence
you pontificate about in the preceding paragraph? Why? Because
you are not _interested_, sir, in presenting _any_ "real
evidence."  <ding! Another winner, Johnny!>

You used the word truth 6 times (unofficial count) in this
charmless, misleading, and obnoxious little missive. Assuming
the master's cloak, drawing on the skin of the earnest
paranormal researcher, you fail the simplist tests of
rationality, openmindedness, and curiousity. You're paid, and
work passionately, to reduce clarity -- fanning the anomalous
and murky bottom with psychopathically busy fingers! You, sir,
would have us all _retreat_ to the medieval -- working a three
field rotation for the Manor Lord! You really should be ashamed.
I wonder how you can look into the mirror to shave, and then
remember your beard.

>The choice is ours.

Fah! Bah and Humbug you charmless and prevaricating ufological
Scrooge! When the spirits of past, present, and future _do_ come
-- remember that it's not something you _ate_!

>Enclosed is the Official Fox Press Release Below, and it can be
>found at www.fixworld.com/messroom.htm

>I look forward to your comments and feedback.

Really!


>Email me at: Totlresrch@aol.com

E-Mail ME at UFO UpDates!

>Sincerely yours,

>Kal Korff


<Snipped Ad for Rupert's and Kal's latest documentary obfuscation>

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 12 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $100.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while
burning at the fundamentalist's stake.






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                Re: Fox Exposes Alien Autopsy Film As A Hoax

From: Werner Walter <113236.1604@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:25:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 09:49:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox Exposes Alien Autopsy Film As A Hoax


Hi List,

Which member on this list can make me a recording of this
broadcast because I can=B4t see it in Germany?


Werner





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                     Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:56:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 10:14:18 -0500
Subject: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"


In response to my critics, simply pronouncing an argument of no
value does not make it so.  To date none of my substantive
points have been addressed, possibly because they have not been
understood.

When a substantive response is made by any one of my critics,
they will get a substantive answer.

I hope you have found this discussion as illuminating as I have.
To quote Robin Williams, "Flacid yet satisfying."

Gary Alevy

P.S. On the matter of Allen Hynek's and my non-performance in
the UFO field.  I would hope that if the day ever comes that a
UFO institute is named after me, it has at least one permanent





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                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:42:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 10:48:27 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: How To Film An Abduction
>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 00:18:56 -0500

>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: How To Film An Abduction
>>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>>Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 01:37:16 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>In a long ago post (here, I think) I tried to create a list of
>>suggestions for possible evidence gathering from abductions. If
>>anyone is interested, I could repost.

>I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to see it.

>Greg Sandow

OK, Here it is...

----
To implement this, you need to have a case which happened very
recently.

* Undertake a search of the area looking for ground traces or
traces on the treetops.

* Make sure the clothes they wore that night have not been
washed. If they have not, bag them and preserve them for
analysis. Also obtain a control sample of their normal clothing
which could not have been involved in an abduction. Look for
unusual substances, dust, stains, etc. You will want to work
with a scientist who knows clothing and fabrics for this.

* If the witness claims that the entities entered a house, take
samples of any rugs that the entities may have crossed. Take
control samples from rugs in unaffected areas. Look for
variations in dust composition, presence / absence of dust
mites, unusual substances, microscopic changes in the fibers. An
expert in carpets and their inhabitants is essential for this
work.

* If the witness claimes that the entities passed through
anything, try to obtain a sample of whatever they passed
through, and a control sample of an area distant from that but
of the same material. Have these samples analysed for
microscopic changes, burns, differences in density or material
characteristics, surface coatings, and radiation. You will need
a good materials scientist to help you with devising good tests
and controls.

* If the witness is willing, have blood work done. Exposure to
radiation leaves traces of some kind in the blood for over a
week. Also look for allergens and antigens in the blood - if the
witness has been exposed to alien substances, there should be
some activity in the blood. You will need a good blood scientist
with an open mind who can help you devise appropriate tests.

* If the witness claims that intercourse or genital / anal
probing occurred, use of a standard rape examination as soon
after the event as possible is essential. The police may be able
to advise you as to the nature of such tests, and doctors which
can perform them. Be prepared for some awkward questions,
however, unless you have a police advisor who is familiar with
the abduction literature.

* Don't put much credence in scars. There are too many potential
sources for such things.

* If a foetal removal is claimed, insist on medical records from
the witness gynecologist.

All samples should be gathered with two investigators present,
and should be sealed in ziploc bags. A sheet of paper should
accompany each piece of evidence, with the signatures of the
investigators. Each time the evidence is opened, two
investigators should be present, should date / sign the sheet,
and should note on the sheet the reason for opening the bag.
Determine how long the material has been in its current location
for both evidence and control samples. Handle the samples with
tongs, etc. Make sure the sample handling devices are also
sealed in ziplocs with their own evidence sheets. Only use the
same sample handlers with the same samples to avoid cross
contamination, and to ensure that any contamination from the
sample handlers is kept to a minimum and is traceable.

If any of these tests show unusual results, you should be
prepared to submit the same evidence to a second lab /
scientist, who has NO familiarity with UFOs and who is not made
aware of anything except the specific tests you want performed.
This comes as close as you can probably approach a double-blind
examination of the evidence.

Be very cautious in interpreting the results. Several similar
results from several independent cases will be required before
any kind of conclusions may be able to be drawn. Even
differences between the primary and the control sample will have
to be carefully examined to ensure they are not spurious.

--

That's it. I'm sure there are many better suggestions, but at





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                    Insight On The Fox Special and Kiviat

From: Don Ecker <decker@ufomag.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:16:32 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 13:59:58 -0500
Subject: Insight On The Fox Special and Kiviat


OK, another viewpoint on Kiviat and the Alien Autopsy

By
Don Ecker
*********************************************

UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote:

>"Alien Autopsy" a Hoax, Fox Says

>by Bridget Byrne

>December 11, 1998, 5:20 p.m. PT

>***

<snip>

>In fact, World's Greatest Hoaxes: Secrets Finally Revealed,
>hosted by *Lance Henriksen and airing December 28 at 8 p.m., is
>executive produced by Robert Kiviat, the same guy who made the
>ratings-friendly Alien Autopsy.

>Kiviat says that the idea to do a special on hoaxes came about
>when he was looking at footage for inclusion in his 1997 Fox
>special, UFO's, The Best Evidence Ever Caught on Tape. He
>wondered how some of the stuff was created.

>According to a flamboyant Fox press release, the latest hourlong
>special uses "NASA-type video enhancements" to shed new light on
>how the peep into alien innards--"one of the biggest hoaxes of
>all time"--was accomplished.

Hello all. I find this topic highly amusing. You see, it was I
who originally brought this topic to Bob Kiviat at FOX.

I had worked with Kiviat as a commentator on both the "old"
"Sightings" program and then "Encounters". I had been involved
with a number of different stories.

In November, 1993 my wife and I were both invited to speak a the
"UFO World Congress" in Vienna. Other participants included
Jenny Randles, John Spencer and Phil Mantle, all then with
BUFORA. Phil Mantle first mentioned what would become the "Alien
Autopsy" to me at that time. Because there was no other
supporting evidence I gave it less than my full attention. That
was to change a year later.

The following year, just about Christmas is when I received a
phone call from an associate in the UK. I was told that possibly
none other than Rupert Murdock (Grand Poo-Bah) of FOX had
purchased this excerpt from secret Roswell film footage. Could I
check it out? Part of this corrupted story had the footage also
being held by Steven Speilberg, and rumors were rife. Knowing a
number of producers at FOX I chose to call Kiviat because of my
previous dealings with him. I gave him the story I had them,
telling him what I had heard concerning the possibility that
Ruppert Murdock had acquired the footage. Would he please check
on it. He ran it past a few people, and found out that Murdock
had NOT acquired this film. "But I will check it out Don! If
anything happens I want you on board with this." I settled in to
wait.

Several months went by and Kiviat ended up traveling to the UK
for the grand unveiling of the footage. A number of UFO notables
were there, both from the U.S. and the UK and in Europe. Kiviat
was blown away after seeing this. How do I know? He told me at
the time. FOX began to negotiate with Ray Santilli for the right
to air it in the U.S.

A lot more happened of course, we covered this in the pages of
UFO Magazine.

I interviewed Santilli myself, and was lied to as I later found
out. I spoke to several exec's at Kodak about the film. Bob
Shell ended up becoming involved. I must admit, at the time I
did think this could have been real. I wanted to investigate the
alleged cameraman that supposedly sold the film to Santilli. The
combat photographers that ended up becoming involved thru Kent
Jeffrey, came from me.

At that time I was doing my weekly radio show, UFOs Tonite! and
one of my faithful listeners put me in touch with his father who
had been a combat photographer with the U.S. Military. Several
other WW II combat photographer vets were interested in this
footage and looked at it. Jeffrey was then pushing the Roswell
Declaration and appeared on my show. He asked me to put some of
these vets in touch with him which I did. A couple of them were
later interviewed on TV where they spoke about this footage and
why they thought it was not real.

Bob Shell also came on my show to speak about this. By this time
I had been faxed a copy of the "Cameraman's statement" that
Shell later spoke about that came from the UK. I was very
suspicious because being a veteran myself, several passages in
it did not sound like they would come from an American GI, but
did sound like how a Brit would say it. Shell claimed twice on
my show that he had spoken to the cameraman. Later this was
proven not to be true. But back to Kiviat.

Kiviat had promised me that I was the guy who would run a full
investigation on this cameraman. He literally kept me hanging
for a couple of months. He also promised me that as soon as he
had gotten the tape from the UK he would bring me in to see it.
Excitement was running high everywhere about this potential
"smoking gun". Not having heard from Kiviat in weeks, I called
him a number of times.

Finally after my show one Saturday eve, in very early August he
called me at home late. He had the footage and asked me and my
wife to meet him Sunday morning at his office. We got there
about 10:30 or 11:00 AM. Now this was just about two weeks
before the airing of the show. Last minute stuff if you are
going to conduct a real in-depth investigation on somebody.

We viewed the film and Kiviat was ecstatic about it. Jonathan
Frakes was hired to host it after (according to Kiviat) several
"heavy hitters" in the news biz turned him down. (If memory
serves, Connie Chung was one.) Now he wanted me to start. Right
then and there and work at his office for the next two weeks.
Here was my desk, with telephone and everything! (He pointed it
out to me.) Oh yes, there was one problem. They didn't have a
budget to compensate me. (I suppose it was blown on Bob's trip
to England, buying the rights from Santilli and what they had to
pay to Frakes.) Of course my day job at UFO Magazine ( our staff
then was just 3 ) would be augmented by the status of working on
this show.

So to sum up, I could investigate the camera guy to my hearts
content for about a week or so. Not the way I would run this
railroad. I passed on this deal. The rest, as they say is
history. I had real bad feelings about this whole deal from that
point on. Of course Kiviat was and is in the business of selling
programing to TV. As we all should know, TV eats it young,
always has and always will. It is just how that business works.
And lets be honest, sometimes the truth gets in the way of a
good story. Ho-Hum.


>Kiviat, who says he always doubted the truth of the alien
>autopsy, describes his specials as having "a documentary spin."


Ok, and now for my final word on the above;

Bull Shit.

Regards;

Don Ecker





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                          SDI - Tonight - Kal Korff

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:16:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:16:18 -0500
Subject: SDI - Tonight - Kal Korff




Kal Korff will be our guest tonight on 'Strange Days... Indeed'
after the 11:00 [EST] news.

www.cfrb.com/cfrb.ram [live on the Web]

AM 1010 [50,000 watts clear-channel]

6070khz Shortwave


If you'd like to call in to the program the numbers are

On-Air  416-872-1010
        1-800-561-CFRB [North America]
        *TALK [Mobile Phones]






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                   Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"

From: "Jerome Clark" <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 98 11:38:16 PST
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:09:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"


>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:56:24 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: A Response To My Critics

Gary and onlookers,

>In response to my critics, simply pronouncing an argument of no
>value does not make it so.  To date none of my substantive
>points have been addressed, possibly because they have not been
>understood.

The above is quite amusing, of course.  The strategy ought to be
familiar with those listfolk who recall America's traumatic
experience in Vietnam.  As we were losing the war in the field
and it was clear nothing was going to change in that regard, the
late Vermont Senator George Aiken proposed a solution: declare
victory and go home.  That's exactly what Gary is doing here.

In reality, of course, there is nothing to address, Gary. The
problem, believe me, is not that your critics don't understand
you.

>When a substantive response is made by any one of my critics,
>they will get a substantive answer.

Your approach reminds me of what a wise woman, Mary Margaret
Fuller, for whom I worked for years, used to say when reading a
particularly vacuous manuscript submitted for publication at the
magazine we edited:  "There's not a fact in a carload here."
Next time you try to trash it the good names and careers of your
betters (in this case Allen Hynek and Sherman Larsen), better be
carrying something in your vehicle besides gas.

Jerry Clark








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             Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:02:09 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:12:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.


>>From: Kal Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com>
>>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 06:54:23 EST
>>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

>>Dear List,

>>As you all know, ironcially thanks to Billy Meier himself in his
>>public statements, I was involved heavily in this show, and in
>>Europe, and I can truthfully speak for my staff and myself at
>>TotalResearch when I say it was an honor and privilege for us to
>>work with Mr. Kiviat in helping find these truths.

Let us not forget that this is the same Mr. Kiviat who brought
us the original Alien Autopsy special, repeated several times
and available on video tape. The same Mr. Kiviat who took
statements out of context and manipulated the editing of his
original piece so that it sounded as if some of those
interviewed were endorsing the autopsy hoax.

The question that comes to mind is if Kiviat is looking for the
truth or if he is looking for another highly rated special where
the truth gets buried. That's what happened the last time. I
know. I was there.

KRandle





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             Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

From: Kal Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 06:07:12 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:24:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.


In a message dated 12/12/98 4:14:53 PM, Pat McCartney wrote:

(Snip)
<<Excuse me, is this the _same_ Bob Kiviat who, filled with
"journalistic integrity," brought us the Alien Autopsy in the
first place? Are we to give him more credence for this show,
"Greatest Myths," than we were to his first production?>>

Pat,

Bob Kiviat, whom I have known for years, was always straight
forward with me. He made it clear from the beginning that he
would try to get to the bottom of the Alien Autopsy case (and
others) when he could and when the data allowing that was
possible.

As I mention in my book, "The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't
Want You to Know," in the alien autopsy chapter that Mr. Philip
Mantle "objected to" so publicly and forcefully [now see where
he stands, having reversed the course of his ship, while his
co-author Hesemann still clutches to the Meier and Santilli
hoaxes desperately] if I had any doubts that Mr. Kiviat was
going to do anything but play honest with the facts, then not
only would I have refused to work with him, but it would have
ended our friendship.

I would urge you to wait and see the special before judging it.
I think it is Kiviat's best work, and also just the beginning.
The UFO field, the fields covering Bigfoot, Loch Ness, etc., are
going through a fundamental transformation -- hopefully for the
better. The bar has been raised, and some very important myths
are being finally exposed for what they are.

Best wishes and thanks for your comments,
Kal





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             Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

From: Kal Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 06:07:12 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:28:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.


>From: ElPatricio@aol.com
>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 11:45:29 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

<snip>

>Excuse me, is this the _same_ Bob Kiviat who, filled with
>"journalistic integrity," brought us the Alien Autopsy in the
>first place? Are we to give him more credence for this show,
>"Greatest Myths," than we were to his first production?

Pat,

Bob Kiviat, whom I have known for years, was always straight
forward with me. He made it clear from the beginning that he
would try to get to the bottom of the Alien Autopsy case (and
others) when he could and when the data allowing that was
possible.

As I mention in my book, "The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't
Want You to Know," in the alien autopsy chapter that Mr. Philip
Mantle "objected to" so publicly and forcefully [now see where
he stands, having reversed the course of his ship, while his
co-author Hesemann still clutches to the Meier and Santilli
hoaxes desperately] if I had any doubts that Mr. Kiviat was
going to do anything but play honest with the facts, then not
only would I have refused to work with him, but it would have
ended our friendship.

I would urge you to wait and see the special before judging it.
I think it is Kiviat's best work, and also just the beginning.
The UFO field, the fields covering Bigfoot, Loch Ness, etc., are
going through a fundamental transformation -- hopefully for the
better. The bar has been raised, and some very important myths
are being finally exposed for what they are.

Best wishes and thanks for your comments,

Kal





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   Dec > Dec 13

                        Re: BWW Media Alert 19981213

From: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:15:20 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:30:18 -0500
Subject: Re: BWW Media Alert 19981213

Bufo Calvin
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA  94596
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Website: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufo
calvin<;/a><BR>
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld"> Link
to Amazon.com</a><BR>
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this
edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made
to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with
strangers before you e-mail them something.  If you forward this, please make
sure it is clear that you are forwarding it).

<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
<META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="Microsoft Word 97">
<TITLE>ma19981213</TITLE>
<META NAME="Version" CONTENT="8.0.3410">
<META NAME="Date" CONTENT="10/11/96">
<META NAME="Template" CONTENT="C:\Program Files\Microsoft
Office\Office\HTML.DOT">
</HEAD>



December 13, 1998

I want to apologize a bit for last week's brevity. I actually had written a
much longer piece (including the SIGHTINGS listings). Unfortunately, I sent it
before I saved the changes. At that point, they are lost, and I didn't have
time to re-create them. This one will be more back to normal.

On to the listings: Times are generally Pacific.

RADIO

SIGHTINGS ON THE RADIO
(<A HREF="http://www.sightings.com/">Sightings on the Radio</A>) With host
Jeff Rense. Can be heard on-line, or check the website for stations.
Sunday, December 13: Dr. Joseph Chiappalone, MD: End Times Madness; Paxton
Quigly: Armed And Female
Monday, December 14: Dr. Shakuntala Modi, MD: Psychiatry And Reincarnation;
Michael Glickman: Crop Circle Review
Tuesday, December 15: Joe McMoneagle: The Ultimate Time Machine (
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/157174102X/bufosweirdworld">
The Ultimate Time Machine</A>)
Wednesday, December 16: Michael Lindemann: Weekly UFO/ET Update; Dr. John
Coleman: Committee Of 300
Thursday, December 17: Dr. Louis Turi: Divine Astrology Readings
Friday, December 18: Brad Steiger: A Paranormal Christmas


TELEVISION

A&E
Thursday, December 17, 9:00 PM, THE UNEXPLAINED: UFO CULTS
Friday, December 18, 1:00 AM, THE UNEXPLAINED: UFO CULTS
Next Sunday, December 20, 6:00 PM, THE UNEXPLAINED: UFO CULTS

ABC
Tuesday, December 15, 10:00 AM, THE VIEW: psychic predictions for 1999

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL
Sunday, December 13, 1:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: THUNDERBIRD
Sunday, December 13, 1:30 PM, STRANGE BUT TRUE: PSYCHIC PETS AND UNEXPLAINED
LIGHTS (the lights are in England)
Next Sunday, December 20, 1:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GOD BEAR OF KAMCHATKA
Next Sunday, December 20, 1:30 PM, STRANGE BUT TRUE: POLTERGEISTS AND MIND
OVER PAIN

THE HISTORY CHANNEL
Saturday, December 19, 5:00 PM: THE MYSTERIES OF AMELIA EARHART (alien
abduction is suggested, among others)
Saturday, December 19, 9:00 PM: THE MYSTERIES OF AMELIA EARHART (alien
abduction is suggested, among others)
Next Sunday, December 20, 2:00 PM: THE MYSTERIES OF AMELIA EARHART (alien
abduction is suggested, among others)
Next Monday, December 21, 1:00 AM: THE MYSTERIES OF AMELIA EARHART (alien
abduction is suggested, among others)

THE LEARNING CHANNEL
Saturday, December 19, 5:00 PM: CASTLE GHOSTS OF IRELAND (hosted by Robert
Hardy)

MTV
Next Friday, December 25, 3:00 PM, ROAD RULES: UFO stories
Next Friday, December 25, 5:00 PM, ROAD RULES: haunted hotel

PBS
Dates, times, and even content varies: NOVA: SECRETS OF THE PSYCHICS: arch-
skeptic and magician James "The Amazing" Randi gives his explanations for
psychic surgery, psychic hot-lines, etc.

THE SCIENCE CHANNEL
The new schedule is weird programming for an hour each at 6:00 AM, 2:00 PM,and
10:00 PM. Rotating shows include: INTO THE UNKNOWN, STRANGE BUT TRUE, and
ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE.

THE SCI-FI CHANNEL

Monday, December 14, 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #204: vampires; UFO
Monday, December 14, 8:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #204: vampires: UFO
Tuesday, December 15, 9:00 AM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #5065 : UFOs; astronaut Edgar
Mitchell; mutated frogs; school haunting; lake monster
Tuesday, December 15, 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #205: Lizzie Borden;
possession by demons
Tuesday, December 15, 8:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #205: Lizzie Borden;
possession by demons
Wednesday, December 16, 9:00 AM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #5066: Ohio UFOs; out-of-
body-experiences; nightclub haunting
Wednesday, December 16, 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #206: 1965 Pennsylvania UFO;
possession by demons
Wednesday, December 16, 8:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #206: 1965 Pennsylvania UFO;
possession by demons
Thursday, December 17, 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #207: Hudson Valley UFOs
Friday, December 18, 4:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #208: Scottish ghosts; vampire
Sundayday, December 20, 7:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #5069: psychic detective;
Atlantis; alchemy; mansion haunting; ley lines
Sun, December 20, 11:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #5069: psychic detective;
Atlantis; alchemy; mansion haunting; ley lines


___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly
redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by
e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com.  You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to
Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if
there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t
he week before.
_____________________________





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   Dec > Dec 13

                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:55:48 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:36:59 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: How To Film An Abduction
>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 01:37:16 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>In a long ago post (here, I think) I tried to create a list of
>suggestions for possible evidence gathering from abductions. If
>anyone is interested, I could repost.

One idea I suggested to a lady who was a repeat abductee was the
possibility of designing some sort of simple weight monitor to
put under one's mattress.  It would also periodically record
time marker ticks in some manner.

It would monitor weight load during the night.  It would be
totally inconspicuous.  If the abductee were gone for any length
of time (to go to the john or for longer periods) that would be
recorded. Such a monitor wouldn't tell you a lot, but it would
definitely catch the time and duration of any absences.

More importantly, such a device wouldn't interfere much with the
person's daily routine, perhaps unlike more overt monitoring
systems I've seen suggested at times.  You could pretty much
ignore it unless something happened, or except to calibrate the
timer ticks occasionally.

And if the visitors are clever enough to de-activate it, well,
that should show up on the recording too, and still provide some
useful info, at least starting times.  Perhaps using a pen
recorder rather than electronic recording would be better for
such reasons.

One could probably also use such a device as a switch to
activate other equipment.  For instance, to turn on lights, to
activate an alarm or outside camera, to alert a cooperative
neighbor, or whatever.  Possibilities are endless.  Triggers
could be immediate or on time-delay, for example 15 minutes
after weight is removed and not restored.  This would avoid
reactions during a quick trip to the john, but react as desired
to prolonged absences.

Any clever inventors out there who could cook up such a monitor
cheaply using "off-the-shelf" components?

Just my 2 cents,

-Brian Cuthbertson






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                   Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 13:08:22 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:45:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"


>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:56:24 -0500
>Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 10:14:18 -0500
>Subject: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"

Previously Gary, yet again, failed to answer questions regarding
his concepts about Hynek and Larsen:

>In response to my critics, simply pronouncing an argument of no
>value does not make it so.  To date none of my substantive
>points have been addressed, possibly because they have not been
>understood.

Agreed.

The argument you pronounce has no value because it's based on
guesswork.

To date, none of your points have been addressed by you because
they are unsubstantiated.

Finally, I've no doubt in my mind that all of the above is due
to your inability to understand what you are talking about since
you have no direct knowledge.

>When a substantive response is made by any one of my critics,
>they will get a substantive answer.

Gary, from the beginning, the question that has been primarily
asked over and over, in one form or another, is:

"Where's your evidence?"

Since you offer only conjecture as evidence, then the only other
logical question is:

"What background do you possess that gives weight to your
guesswork?"

Beyond that, what else is there to discuss? Hynek's shoe size?
Larsen's dietary habits? If you make an accusation and offer no
proof then the discussion stalls at that point, which is what
happened despite your obvious attempts to change the subject.

Now, understand, I take no position on the "true nature" of
Hynek and Larsen's work. But, according to you, they NEVER told
anyone about the "true nature" of their work, not even their
closest friends. Therefore, beyond devine intervention, it is
impossible for you to know more than anyone else about their
personal or professional lives.

Admit it. You are simply guessing.

Your concepts ARE interesting and you obviously want people to
discuss them or you wouldn't have offered them to the list. But,
apparently, the price for discussion is that all involved must
agree with you; or, at the very least, not ask any questions or
point out the flaws in your logic.

Sorry, Gary. That's too high a price for any intellegent person,
regardless of how they feel about Hynek or Larsen.

Best regards,

Roger Evans





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                   Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:24:18 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:47:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"

>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:56:24 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: A Response To My Critics

>In response to my critics, simply pronouncing an argument of no
>value does not make it so.  To date none of my substantive
>points have been addressed, possibly because they have not been
>understood.

>When a substantive response is made by any one of my critics,
>they will get a substantive answer.

>I hope you have found this discussion as illuminating as I have.
>To quote Robin Williams, "Flacid yet satisfying."

You know, Gary, Robin Williams would make a Great Allen J.
Hynek, in a movie about UFOlogy and Project Blue Book. If you
have any friends in the Movie Industry, why not suggest such a
script and movie...It would be very entertaining.


>P.S. On the matter of Allen Hynek's and my non-performance in
>the UFO field.  I would hope that if the day ever comes that a
>UFO institute is named after me, it has at least one permanent
>employee.


Grin....Yeah... ;-)

REgards, Mike


ICQ#:7508455.
(502) 683-6811





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                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 13:13:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:50:29 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction

:
:

:
:
:
:

> Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: How To Film An Abduction
> From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:42:39 -0500
> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>
Mark made very detailed, very helpful suggestions about how to look
for physical abduction evidence:

> * Undertake a search of the area looking for ground traces or
> traces on the treetops.
>
> * Make sure the clothes they wore that night have not been
> washed. If they have not, bag them and preserve them for
> analysis. Also obtain a control sample of their normal clothing
> which could not have been involved in an abduction. Look for
> unusual substances, dust, stains, etc. You will want to work
> with a scientist who knows clothing and fabrics for this.

<the rest snipped for brevity>

Many thanks, Mark .Any serious abduction investigator will be
grateful, and will look for ways to do what you suggest. (Which
unfortunately won't be easy, because of the skills and work and
expense necessary, including removing windows from the abductee's
home! The idea, of course, would be to compare windows the abductors
supposedly passed through with windows that hadn't been affected. Not
many abductees will be willing to go through all this -- but that
doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.)

Greg Sandow





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                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 13:13:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:53:16 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: How To Film An Abduction
>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:42:39 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


Mark made very detailed, very helpful suggestions about how to
look for physical abduction evidence:

>* Undertake a search of the area looking for ground traces or
>traces on the treetops.

>* Make sure the clothes they wore that night have not been
>washed. If they have not, bag them and preserve them for
>analysis. Also obtain a control sample of their normal clothing
>which could not have been involved in an abduction. Look for
>unusual substances, dust, stains, etc. You will want to work
>with a scientist who knows clothing and fabrics for this.

<the rest snipped for brevity>

Many thanks, Mark .Any serious abduction investigator will be
grateful, and will look for ways to do what you suggest. (Which
unfortunately won't be easy, because of the skills and work and
expense necessary, including removing windows from the
abductee's home! The idea, of course, would be to compare
windows the abductors supposedly passed through with windows
that hadn't been affected. Not many abductees will be willing to
go through all this -- but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be
done.)






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                   Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 13:07:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:56:00 -0500
Subject: Abduction Evidence -- Request  For Help


We've had a discussion here about medical anomalies that some
abductees report. Some of you may remember me complaining that
these never seem to be documented. Well, I'm happy to report one
ray of light.

John Velez (who of course agreed that I should post this) has
gotten copies of x-rays involved in what may be an
abduction-related incident. I'm not going to say any more about
it, because I think the x-rays need to be looked at by people
who don't know what they might find.

But this is what we need -- doctors to look at these x-rays, and
tell us what they show. Ideally, the kind of doctor we want
would be (a) the right kind of specialist to comment on the
x-rays (b) not involved with UFOs or abductions, and (c) willing
to go on the record with his or her findings. This last point is
_very_ important. I'm tired of hearing comments on crucial
abduction matters attributed to anonymous doctors or scientists.
John and I want people to look at these x-rays who won't mind
having their names published.

This means, of course, that the doctors involved will have to be
told that the x-rays are connected with UFO abductions. Ideally,
they wouldn't know that. But I don't think we can ask people to
put their names on the line, and tell them only afterward what
they've gotten themselves involved in. In fairness, we have to
tell them exactly what they're getting into.

That said, we shouldn't tell the doctors anything else. They
shouldn't know John's story, or be given any other idea of what
they're supposed to be looking for. We just want them to look at
the x-rays, and make comments in writing about what they see.

So here's my request. Can anyone here suggest someone? If so,
please e-mail John or me privately. This is potentially a very
important inquiry, and John and I would be grateful for any
help.

One last thought. Ideally, we'd take fresh x-rays, so a doctor
looking at the film would know for sure where the x-rays had
come from. If anyone is in a position to help us do this, I'll
be especially happy.

Greg Sandow







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                            Italian UFO Web Site

From: Alfredo Lissoni <alisson@tin.it>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 20:18:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:59:27 -0500
Subject: Italian UFO Web Site


Dear Friend,

The new Home Page with Italian UFO X-files is now visiting at
this address: http://members.tripod.com/~ufocun/index0a.html

It's an Italian Home Page of the Italy's National UFO Center
(since 1966). Thanks for all.

Alfredo Lissoni





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                      Blather: The Doctor And The Devil

From: Daev Walsh - Blather <daev@blather.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 19:29:48 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 19:03:58 -0500
Subject: Blather: The Doctor And The Devil

______________________________________________________
B  L  A  T  H  E  R

p a r a n o r m a l   p r o v o c a t e u r i s m

By Dave (daev) Walsh daev@blather.net
Web: http://www.blather.net
_______________________________________________________
December 11th 1998, Dublin, Ireland   Vol 2. No. 31
_______________________________________________________

THE DOCTOR AND THE DEVIL

Two weeks ago, Blather gave mention of Dr. Franklin Ruehl's
claims of extraterrestrial involvement in the malfunction of
NASA's Deep Space 1 probe. Dr. Ruehl wrote Blather an
interesting letter in response, and so we have decided to share
our rather gentlemanly argument with the readership, with
Blather as Devil's Advocate.

According to the biography that he has passed to Blather, Dr.
Ruehl holds a Ph.D. in theoretical nuclear physics (UCLA), has a
weekly column *Ruehl's Riddles* in the *Sun* supermarket
tabloid, and has published some 1,687 technical papers and
popular articles. He lectures regularly before various colleges,
organizations, aerospace firms (such as Hughes, Lockheed, and
Aerojet), and at expos (such as the Whole Life Expo) and
conventions (such as the Babylon 5 Con). His TV program
*Mysteries From Beyond The Other Dominion*, was one of the four
original series to debut on the Sci-Fi Channel in 1992, and he
is a regular on two other syndicated TV shows, *Strange
Universe* and *Weird TV*.


Franlin Ruehl: Thank you for your interest in my controversial
theory. While I am well aware of your skeptical bent, I am also
cognizant of the fact that your site attracts individuals with
an open mind to controversial theories regarding ETs.

Blather: Doctor Ruehl, loathe as I am to introduce a dichotomy
into theproceedings, I would be interested in hearing what you
would regard as a preferable opposite to a 'skeptical bent'. I
would distance myself from the likes of CSICOP and their like,
finding them to be dismissive of the paranormal *on principal*,
whereas I am more than happy to entertain the possible existence
of paranormal entities - physical or otherwise. However, that
*doesn't* lead me to assume that extra-terrestrials are visiting
our planet, or messing with our space probes.



FR: While I have no evidence that ETs have established an
outpost on Asteroid 1992 KD, I am convinced that advanced aliens
somewhere in the cosmos, whether in our solar system or beyond,
have set up such asteroidal bases. For instance, four additional
planet-bearing stars have just been identified,and more
undoubtedly will follow.


B: Without sounding like a barrister, may I enquire as to
exactly what has convinced you that ETs not only exist but are
in our midst comsmologically and/or psychically speaking?

FR: Considering that the ion engine has the potential to
increase our spacefaring capabilities by a factor of 10, it is
certainly conceivable that aliens might wish to sabotage our
efforts in this regard. That engine had functioned flawlessly on
the ground in multiple tests, but just 4.5 minutes after running
on Deep Space 1, it failed, and refused to start up despite
numerous attempts to reboot it. JPL even used the term
"mysterious" concerning its failure!

B: When my new PC fails to boot up, I too often mutter
'mysterious'. I think you may be taking a mile when NASA have
given but an inch. With the sabotage idea too - I mean, I'm all
in favour of speculation, but it's quite a leap from a technical
malfunction to allegations of sabotage by ETs!


FR: ETs might wish to restrict us in a non-forceful manner to
our own domain of space. Recent discoveries have confirmed my
thesis that planetary moons are potential sites for alien life.
There may well be underwater civilizations on Callisto,
Ganymede, and Europa, not to mention tiny Enceladus (which has
at least a 40% water content). Even if these entities have not
developed a spacefaring technology, they may have evolved
powerful psychic abilities,which may have been directed at Deep
Space 1, i.e. alien remote viewers may have been responsible for
its failure!

B: Hmmmm - just because these moons have the potential to
harbour organic life, it certainly doesn't follow that organic
life has evolved to a level of consciousness and technical
ability which enables it to track what's going on here on Earth.
On the other hand, if these extraterrestrials are more advanced
than us, why would the bother merely sabotaging our hardware
(which didn't work by the way, Deep Space 1 is back on the
rails)? It would be quite a fluke to think that the ETs are at
the same step of the (theoretical) evolutionary ladder as us,
not at some primeval or advanced stage... or even extinct.



FR: Obviously, I cannot prove any of these suppositions, but all
are well within the realm of feasibility! Not only may have
aliens also zapped the 1993 NASA Mars probe, but may have also
been responsible for the enigmatic disappearance of the Telstar
401 in January, 1997, and the recent failure of the Galaxy 4
communications satellite.

B: No pun intended, but as William of Occam put it "Entities
should not be multiplied more than necessary". I can't help but
think that you're stacking these suppositions on some fairly
frail assumptions. Machines are fallible, there are a host of
more credible assumptions to make about their breakdown before
one even gets close to considering interference from another
planet.



Blather also brought up Dr. Ruehl's theories concerning the
pyramids...


FR: Regarding my contention that ETs were responsible for the
creation of the three Great Pyramids and the Sphinx, I point to
the erosional evidence adduced by Dr. Robert Schoch, backdating
their construction to anywhere from 7,000 to 9,000 years ago
when there was no organized Egyptian society capable of creating
them. While that does not prove that ETs were responsible, it
certainly makes the ET hypothesis as credible as any of the
others that have been advanced.

For example,there were some 2.5 million stone blocks in the
Great Pyramid of Cheops, each weighing anywhere from one to 40
tons, constructed over a 20-year period. Assuming they worked
only 12-hour shifts in the daylight, 300 days per year (taking
time off for holidays, inclement weather, etc.), they would have
had to cut, grind, and move in place one such huge stone every
1.45 minutes! In light of such data,the extraterrestrial
hypothesis seems worth considering!


B: In other words, it simply adds another hypothesis, perhaps
more unprovable than the rest? Just because we don't know - *at
the present time* - how humans could have done it in the past,
it doesn't necessarily follow that humans could never have done
it. We might as well attribute the building contract to 'The
Gods'.

If someone else other than humans could have done the
building... *how* did they do it? Are we going on the assumption
that extraterrestrials imported some form of heavy lifting gear
(mechanical or otherwise) and then took it home with them again?
If they have such marvellous powers at their disposial, how come
they can't sucessfully take out a pesky space probe, several
thousand Earth years later? Are they the same aliens, or are
humans creating extraterrestrials scapegoats created to fill
gaps in our understanding, like dozens of little gods?... so
that we have Pyramid Builders/Contractors ETs, Space Probe
Hating ETs, Abductor ETs...

Blather remains unconvinced.



NOTES
Non-Temperance Zone (earlier dicussions about Dr. Ruehl)
(http://www.blather.net/archives2/issue2no29.html)

['The Doctor and the Devil, in case anyone's wondering, is a reference
to *The Doctor and the Devils* by Dylan Thomas, a play about the 19th
century body-snatcher-murderers Burke and Hare]


GEMINID SKYWATCH
Blather was in touch with Eamon Ansbro of the Irish Centre for
UFO Studies/ Programme for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
Research - they have a skywatch planned for Monday December 14th
at the Moylurg Tower in Lough Key Forest Park, Co. Roscommon,
from 5:30 onwards. This date seems to have been predicted as
when the UFOs are to show themselves... as the Geminid meteor
shower is due to peak on Sunday, and if it is a clear night,
doubtless there will be some level of success for the
skywatchers. Details are available at +353 79 62844.

Recent Blather coverage of the ICUFOS *Energy fields! - Shields up!*
(http://www.blather.net/archives2/issue2no27.html)

Last year's Geminid shower/ICUFOS skywatch
(http://www.blather.net/archives2/archives/issue1no32.html)

Lough Key Forest Park, Co. Roscommon
(http://ireland.iol.ie/~boylecoc/key.html)

_______________________________________________________

Dave (daev) Walsh
11th December 1998
daev@blather.net

_______________________________________________________
NiceOne - Ireland's No.1 Internet Directory
NiceOne provides access to over 4,000 Irish Websites
supporting Irish products & Services on the World Wide Web.
(http://www.niceone.com)
______________________________________________________


|d|i|s|i|n|f|o|r|m|a|t|i|o|n|
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Everything You Know is Wrong!

* Buy Things You Don't Need in The Disinformation Headshop!
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A Loyal Reader Writes:
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Disinformation http://www.disinfo.com
Trust us, it's fucked up!

_______________________________________________________


SPONSORSHIP:
While Blather will always remain free to the subscriber, we're
always willing to talk to interested parties with regard to
sponsorship.
Contact: daev@blather.net

_______________________________________________________

For the Blather archives, please go to:
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 13

                UFO Researcher Wendy Connors on #Visitations

From: Angela Shilling <ashill@visitations.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 14:43:45 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 19:18:36 -0500
Subject: UFO Researcher Wendy Connors on #Visitations


WENDY A. CONNORS
UFO Researcher on #Visitations.

Saturday, December 19th
7pm Pacific / 9pm Central / 10pm Eastern / 3am GMT

Where: #Visitations on the Undernet

How to Get to IRC: http://www.visitations.com/irc/


BIO:

From: http://www.evansville.net/~slk/sign-psfrms.htm

WENDY A. CONNORS

Wendy Ann Connors originally hails from Iowa. Born shortly
before the official beginnings of Project SIGN, she became
interested at a very early age in the "Flying Saucer" stories
that appeared in the newspapers and on early television. Being a
true Iowan she was known for her tomboyish outlook and could
usually be found wandering the government housing areas were she
grew up wearing a Tom Corbett, Space Cadet, helmet and
brandishing a plastic ray gun. It goes without saying that the
neighborhood dogs and cats lived in constant fear of being
disintegrated!

Like many of her peers who grew up under the threat of the Cold
War Wendy was ingrained with a sense of absolute patriotism to
her country. During her junior and senior high school years
Wendy was a member of the local Civil Air Patrol, first as a
cadet, and then as a senior member. She would skip school during
the late spring and could be found knee deep in Mississippi
River mud filling sandbags and rescuing animals from a Jon boat
during the flooding season. Following High School she joined the
United States Air Force. Completing her basic training at
Lackland AFB her first duty assignment was at Stewart AFB in New
York. In 1968 she was transferred to Mactan Island AB,
Philippines and worked as a Communications Supervisor and NCOIC
of Administration. Honorably discharged an E-5 in the summer of
1969, Wendy returned to Iowa and completed her degrees at the
University of Iowa.

During the 1970=92s she was a secondary and post secondary teacher
in the fields of Communications and Media and continued her
interest in the field of ufology and numismatics.

In 1980 Wendy Connors settled in Santa Fe, New Mexico and then
moved to Albuquerque in 1984. She continues to live in the Land
of Enchantment and has continued to research the modern history
of the unidentified flying object phenomenon. For the last seven
years she has worked on bringing to the field of Ufology an
illustrative historical perspective of Project SIGN. It has been
finished and is near final completion of proofing. It should be
available to the public by the end of the year

Wendy wrote her first book, The Lincoln Cent, in 1980. She
edited two volumes of Outstanding Iowa Women and recently
completed : A Genesis Obscura: A Spiritual Journey through the
First Epoch of Man to the End of the First Precession of
Mankind. She is co-author of the book, "Alfred Loedding and the
Great Flying Saucer Wave of 1947" with her research partner,
Michael David Hall. They are currently at work on a new book
detailing the 1952 UFO Wave. Her most recent work, as yet
unpublished, is entitled: Anatomy of a Project -- An Illustrated
History of Project SIGN.

Undernet Servers:

McLean.VA.us.undernet.org
Arlington.VA.US.Undernet.Org
StLouis.MO.US.UnderNet.org
LasVegas.NV.US.Undernet.org
SaltLake.UT.US.UnderNet.Org
Baltimore.MD.US.Undernet.Org
RockHill.SC.US.Undernet.Org
dallas.tx.us.undernet.org
plano.tx.us.undernet.org
Regensburg.DE.EU.undernet.org
Antwerpen.Be.Eu.Undernet.org
Gothenburg.SE.EU.Undernet.org
graz.at.Eu.UnderNet.org
Caen.Fr.Eu.UnderNet.org
London.UK.eu.Undernet.org
Vancouver.BC.CA.Undernet.Org
montreal.qu.ca.undernet.org
toronto.on.ca.undernet.org





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   Dec > Dec 13

                  Re: Insight On The Fox Special and Kiviat

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:58:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 19:22:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Insight On The Fox Special and Kiviat



>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:16:32 -0800
>From: Don Ecker <decker@ufomag.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Insight On The Fox Special and Kiviat

>OK, another viewpoint on Kiviat and the Alien Autopsy

>By
>Don Ecker
>*********************************************

>>Kiviat, who says he always doubted the truth of the alien
>>autopsy, describes his specials as having "a documentary spin."

>Ok, and now for my final word on the above;

>Bull Shit.

>Regards;

>Don Ecker
>UFO Magazine


I too had dealings with Kiviat who was consistently over
enthusiastic and had little concern with the truth about the
"autopsy " footage.and was unwilling to pay for services
rendered. He told Billy Cox a fine and very knowledgeable
journalist for Florida Today that he wanted him to check things
out.. no money of course.

Billy's first thought was to investigate Santilli. Horrors. no
way. Just about everything Santilli told me in our first
conversation turned out to be a lie.

Kiviat's people spent 4 hours with Bruce Maccabee and 3 hours
with me down in DC. Kiviat used none of Bruce's analysis and
used 30 seconds of my comments out of context.. He  very much
distorted the meaning of the experts.. partly by telling them
that the film had been dated by Kodak to 1947..

Look at that terrible segment with the detective who was to find
the cameraman. UGH . Not to be trusted.

Stan Friedman








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   Dec > Dec 13

                Re: Fox Exposes Alien Autopsy Film As A Hoax

From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:43:00 CET
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 19:26:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox Exposes Alien Autopsy Film As A Hoax


>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:25:21 -0500
>From: Werner Walter <113236.1604@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Fox Exposes Alien Autopsy Film As A Hoax
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>Hi List,

>Which member on this list can make me a recording of this
>broadcast because I can=B4t see it in Germany?

>Werner<

My Dear Chief-debunker of Germany, Werner Walter,

if you agree you can have a copy from me - for free. Of course,
it'll be in NTSC Standard.

But it seems to me that you rub your hands too early. You think
you'll get the smoking gun for your debunking business here in
Germany and it seems to me that you  really don't grasp what is
going on at all. You think: oh, here I have the needed
ammunition for my CENAP report magazine - which you distribute
here in Germany to fool people and to explain away any UFO
phenomenon - because you know what is going on.

In my mind I already  can see what the headlines of your
"magazine" will  be - but again, you'll be on the wrong  side.
Read Don Ecker's article here on this list - if your translation
program is capable to work with this kind of language.

Joachim Koch
International Roswell Initiative, Germany







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Dec > Dec 13

                Re: Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:45:32 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 19:32:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc


>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:56:02 -0600
>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

>>From: Kal Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com>
>>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 06:54:23 EST
>>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.



Dear Al, most worthy and noble list, and Unworthy KKK...
Sorry, I meant KK.... (as in ka-ka...)

Anyway,

Would, Sir, that I had your witt, your ability to cut deeply
into your adversary's tender parts.  Sadly, tho, I have not
your witt, I share only in your heart good Sir, not in your art.

Forgive me for saying this, too, presuming as I do, however
I have a bit of a suggestion, which may aid your digestion...

Hold back nothing, as you seem want to do.
Let it all flow out.  Even the poopoo.
You'll feel much better that way.
As we cheer what you say,
'Specially me, 'cause I've had such a very bad day.

Until now, that is.  Al, don't ever leave. Never go away.

Dr. Jaime Gesundt, "I will sell no wine, until it's ready!"






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   Dec > Dec 14

                 Hynek 10/10/66 Newsweek - Pt. 2 (footnotes)

From: Jerry Cohen" <rjcohen@li.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 19:55:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:59:48 -0500
Subject: Hynek 10/10/66 Newsweek - Pt. 2 (footnotes)


Hynek 10/10/66 Newsweek.2 (footnotes)


Footnotes:

1       "Rash of Flying Objects Probed" . The San Antonio Light
. 8/2/65 : "Hundreds Sight Flashes" . San Antonio Evening News .
Mon, 8/2/65 : "Valley Scientists Study Fiery Objects From Sky" .
San Antonio Evening News . 8/3/65 : "Flying Object Reports, Some
by Radar Men, Deluge Four States" . New York Times . Tues.
8/3/65 : Flying Saucers, Look Magazine Special:   p 34 . Smith,
Alan "color photo of UFO witnessed by several people over Tulsa,
Oklahoma on 8/2/65" ... note projection at tail:  also see ..
Current Science Student Magazine . 2/22/67 "pictures taken by 2
brothers 1/9/67 in Michigan" ... note similar fin at back of
"craft"

2       Newsday, Long Island newspaper:  Wednesday, August 4,
1965 . 'They're Seeing Things Out Yonder":  also... Hynek, J.
Allen:  The UFO Experience, Chicago:  Henry Regnery Co., 1972
photographs ... center of book

3       Newsday, N.Y. Wednesday 8/4/65 "They're Seeing Things
Out Yonder"

4       Look Magazine:  2/22/66 . Fuller, John G. "OUTER-SPACE
GHOST STORY"
http://www.ufomind.com/place/us/nh/exeter/

5       Northeast Power Failure . Nov 9, 1969 : Also, Gersten,
Peter . "What the U.S. Government Knows About Unidentified
Flying Objects" . Frontiers of Science . May/June 1981 . "Kuwait
oil pumping station shut down & restart by UFO" . p 26, col 2,
bottom paragraph (Gersten was the attorney, who with the help of
the Washington Post newspaper used the Freedom of Information
Act to sue the government for additional information to releases
previously secured in 1979):
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/frnt.sci.81.html#anchor293372 (#11) :
also ...  "Vietnam UFO Incident Uncovered" (1966 sighting &
discussion) . NICAP UFO Investigator . July 1973
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/nha.trang.html#anchor1042043 :
More on the Gersten FOIA documents:
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/Nsday.Art.79.html#anchor1389688
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/frnt.sci.81.html#anchor417559

6       Hynek, J. Allen . Saturday Evening Post . 12/17/66 .
"Are Flying Saucers Real?" : Also, Hynek, J. Allen . The UFO
Experience,  Chicago:  Henry Regnery Co., 1972, Part I, The UFO
Phenomenon

7       IBID:  "Science Is Not Always What Scientists Do" . p
195 "In a very real sense ..... ":  also... Saturday Evening
Post, 12/17/66 . p 20  Col 3 . Hynek, J. Allen "Are Flying
Saucers Real?"

8       Washington Post, 3/22/66 "UFOs Return": IBID 3/23/66
"First UFOs of Season Are Sighted": Evening Star  3/23/66
"Flying Object Reports Have an Unusually Good Week" : Washington
Post, 3/26/66  "Flying Objects Identified as College Pranks and
Swamp Gas" :  Washington Post  4/6/66 . Drummond, Roscoe .
"UFOs-Real or Myth" :   Saturday Evening Post,  12/17/66 . pp
17-21 . Hynek, J. Allen "Are Flying Saucers Real?"

9       New York Times,  8/14/66 . Sullivan, Walter . "Air Force
Selecting University to Study 'Flying Saucer' Data" :
Washington Post,  3/28/66 . "UFO's Revenge" :
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/condon.html

10      Newsweek magazine . 12/29/69 . p. 41 . "Closing the Blue
Book" : also,
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/blbk_close_nicap.html

11.     Hynek, J. Allen . Bulletin of Atomic Scientists . April
1969 .
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/condon.html#hynek_disagrees

12      http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/condon.html
. "University of Colorado Project":  Condon, Dr. Edward U.:
Scientific Study of UFOs,  New York:  Bantam Books 1969 (A New
York Times Book): Look Magazine,  3/21/67 .  pp 76-80 . Rogers,
Warren "Flying Saucers ..  Why the Pentagon was forced to call
for scientific help" : Newsweek Magazine, 10/10/66, p. 70 .
Science & Space . "UFOs for Real?" :  Hynek, Allen J.  Saturday
Evening Post . 12/17/66 .  "Are Flying Saucers Real?"

13      Hynek, J. Allen:  The UFO Experience,  Chicago:  Henry
Regnery Co., 1972
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/ocr.5a.html

14      International UFO Reporter . J. Allen Hynek: a memorial .
May/June 1986 . Vol 11, Number 3 : Also, Webb, Walter N. .
"Allen Hynek as I Knew Him"  . Jan/Feb 1993 . vol 18, Number 1
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/ocr.3b.html

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Respectfully submitted,
Jerry Cohen

 Author: Oberg/Cooper rebuttals
Website: http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/
UFOmind: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/people/c/cohen/





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                       Hynek 10/10/66 Newsweek - Pt. 1

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 19:50:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:53:21 -0500
Subject: Hynek 10/10/66 Newsweek - Pt. 1


For those without web browsers.

Because it can't be transmitted all at once in email, footnotes
to this article will appear in Hynek 10/10/66 Newsweek
Article.2. Those downloading this article can connect both into
one file for research purposes. The footnotes are extremely
relevant to this post for researchers, as all information can be
checked for accuracy therefrom, and also provide additional
insights.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Life and Times of Dr. J. Allen Hynek:

In trying to learn as much as we can about the life of J. Allen
Hynek and his ufological relationship with the United States Air
Force we note the following:

Since the late 1940's, the Air Force had been releasing
explanations for UFO cases and in effect, doing its best to
assure the American public (and the world) that it had this "UFO
thing" under control. Skeptics could feel confident that UFO
claims were probably _all_ scientifically explainable if one
would simply dig deeply enough into each case.

However, the number of UFO cases that made the newspapers in
1957 again began increasing dramatically in 1965/66, the quality
of some began rising as well and the Air Force seemed to be
falling short in publically explaining some of them.

Then, something happened in 1966 that had a profound impact on
every person following this fascinating controversy: Dr. J.
Allen Hynek, chief civilian astronomical scientific consultant
to the Air Force on UFOs (for approximately 18 years), the
scientist responsible for debunking all the cases _for_ the Air
Force, suddenly went public with information which apparently
contradicted what the Air Force had been saying all along. In
simple terms the man said; "I can't explain all of this. Some of
it has me baffled." (This researcher's quote, not Hynek's)

So that we can remember exactly what happened back then, I am
posting those 2 articles that originally exploded this
controversy into a major dispute, unresolved to this day.

The following article was taken from:  Newsweek Magazine,
10/10/66, p. 70. It contained quotes by Dr. Hynek. A brief
discussion of same follows.

Another much longer and more detailed article by Hynek himself
appeared in the Saturday Evening Post on 12/17 of the same year.
I believe that 2nd one may have been a large portion of the
major text of the article Hynek evidently submitted to "Science"
journal _prior to their editing._  I'll be submitting that
shortly.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Begin Newsweek article:

SCIENCE AND SPACE

UFO's for Real?

Flying saucers once again have zoomed back into the public
eye-or imagination. In the first six months of this year the
U.S. Air Force's Project Blue Book, the official registrar of
Unidentified Flying Objects, has duly noted 508 UFO "sightings."
Saturday Review columnist and UFO believer John Fuller's
"Incident at Exeter" has been sharing space on the best-seller
lists with former radio announcer Frank Edwards' book "Flying
Saucers-Serious Business." And just last week Fuller began a
two-part story in Look magazine recounting the terrifying two
hours that a New Hampshire couple claim they spent being
interrogated aboard a flying saucer.

The Air Force has been chasing-and usually shooting down-such
stories since the late 1940s. The issue has always seemed
clear-cut: on the one side, the excited believers or someone
with a story to sell; on the other side, the sober scientific
Establishment which explained away alleged sightings as weather
balloons, birds, jet aircraft, cloud formations or even ball
lightning (NEWSWEEK, Sept. 5, 1966). But last week one of the
leading Establishment members seemed to be defecting to the
other side. No less a figure than J. Allen Hynek, the
Northwestern University astrophysicist and the Air Force's own
UFO consultant, believes something's up. "There is a phenomenon
here," Hynek says. "I've studied this for eighteen years and
it's not all nonsense."

In a letter to the authoritative journal Science, to be published
this month, Hynek calls upon reputable scientists to investigate
UFO's seriously. "I'm not saying we are being visited by
extraterrestrial beings," Hynek told Newsweek's Richard Steele,
"but I believe it is one of the possibilities and I think we
should hold an open mind about it. It would be provincial to
believe we are the only intelligent beings in the universe."
UFO's might even be, according to Hynek, "something entirely new
to science. Where would you have gotten in 1866," he asks, "if
you had talked to a scientists about nuclear energy?"

Unlike the true UFO believers, Hynek does not cry conspiracy.
First of all, he dismisses the idea that UFO's are some secret
military device. "I just don't think people can keep a secret
for eighteen years," he says. Hynek also acknowledges that most
UFO reports can be explained as down-to-earth events. At first,
Science (journal) rejected Hynek's letter, reluctant to lend its
reputation to a controversy that has been the property of
publicity seekers and circulation-minded editors. But Hynek's
arguments persuaded the magazine to publish an abbreviated
version.

In his letter Hynek eloquently seeks to win over "scientists who
would like to look into the UFO phenomenon but are so vastly
afraid of ridicule . . . They don't dare investigate."  He
presents his argument in charge and rebuttal form:


*CHARGE:   "UFO's are reported by unreliable, unstable,
            uneducated people."
 REBUTTAL:     "... some of the very best, most coherent reports
            have come from reliable, scientifically trained
            people."

*CHARGE:    "The Air Force has no evidence that UFO's are
            extraterrestrial or represent advanced technology of
            any kind."
 REBUTTAL:     "As long as there are unidentifieds' the
            question must obviously remain open."

*CHARGE:  "UFO's have never been sighted on radar or photographed
           by meteor or satellite-tracking cameras."
 REBUTTAL:    "This is not equivalent to saying that radars,
           meteor cameras and satellite-tracking stations have
           not picked up 'oddities' on their scopes."

Search:  To turn UFO's into IFO's (Identified Flying Objects)
Hynek recommends reliable reports be searched by computer for
common features such as the appearance of the object and where
and when it was sighted. Then, says Hynek, the investigators
could try to be on scene to observe the UFO's.

Hynek claims a pattern 'has already begun to emerge from the
"hard-data" cases. They contain, he says, "Frequent allusions to
hovering, wobbling and rapid take-off. Other often reported
features are oval shapes, flashing lights or brilliant lights
whose glare is uncomfortable." This is an apt description of
ball lighting-the glowing mass of ionized air molecules that can
occur during stormy weather--but Hynek things that relatively
few UFO sightings can be explained by ball lighting. Many have
been seen, he says, when atmospheric conditions are not right
for ball lighting.

If an inquiry is launched (the Air Force is searching for a
university to do the job) Hynek wants only an advisory role.
"I'm not whipping up a bonfire," he says. "so I can dance around
it."

Gullible:  How soon, if ever, Hynek's program will be carried
out is anyone's guess. Yet the need for a systematic
investigation of UFO reports to end the uncertainty is
undeniable. The national capacity for gullibility is enormous.
Look magazine's story, for example, recounts the adventures of
Barney and Betty Hill, as revealed under hypnosis performed by a
Boston psychiatrist named Benjamin Simon.

Look insists that he story is a "human document" and not an
attempt to convince the public that the Hills actually boarded a
flying saucer. But the title of Fuller's series--"Aboard a
Flying Saucer" --seems to contradict that and so does the prose:
Barney found himself remembering that "The men had rather
odd-shaped heads, with a large cranium, diminishing in size as
it got toward the chin. And the eyes continued around to the
sides of their 'heads'."  The Hills have earned $24,000 from
their story so far and author Fuller and Dr. Simon will share
earning from a projected book and possibly a movie.

Until the U.S. acts on Hynek's proposals, it seems, the public
will continue to be taken for a ride aboard UFO's.

End - Newsweek article
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

A brief discussion concerning the article:

The publication of the preceding Newsweek magazine report is the
first time this researcher realized that Hynek was admitting
there were cases he couldn't solve and that he believed further
study should be performed on them.

We might ask ourselves; "Why did Hynek say "it's not all
nonsense" in that release?" What could be gained for Hynek by
this move other than to ostracize himself from _both_ the Air
Force and the Scientific community?  It was almost professional
suicide for any scientist to say this. Why ruin your main
career? He already had had a prestigious post with NASA in
charge of tracking our first satellites shot into orbit. If he
remained silent at Blue Book's demise, there probably would have
been other such projects he would have been in line for.
Instead, here he was refuting the very people who hired him.

In an article written by Hynek and published in the Saturday
Evening Post about two months later, he officially informs us
the Air Force wasn't always using his analyses and yet we had
all thought the Air Force evaluations were all his, some of
their explanations were missing the mark scientifically,
"difficult to explain cases" were beginning to mount, the press
was getting annoyed, the public was getting riled up, the Air
Force was embarrassing him, and Hynek could see his scientific
reputation gradually becoming tarnished in the process. He
obviously didn't like the position the Air Force was putting him
in and he really couldn't explain certain cases if he were
pressed to do so.

Hynek had previously lived through the embarrassment of the
August 2nd, 1965 Texas, New Mexico, Oklahoma and Kansas
sightings where those states were deluged with UFO reports
including some from police officers. [1]  The weather bureau in
Wichita tracked an object at 3:40 A.M. Bob Campbell, television
newsman in Sherman, Texas near Oklahoma took a picture of a
strange object. [2]  The Air Force attempted to explain them
away but Robert Risser, the director of Oklahoma City's
Kirkpatrick Planetarium disagreed with the Air Force's
explanation that the sightings were "either twinkles from the
planet Jupiter or stars Rigel, Capella, Betelgeuse or
Alderberan." Risser said "Somebody has made a mistake. ...  Many
of those objects mentioned by the Air Force are not visible
until just before dawn in Oklahoma City and other aren't visible
at all." [3]   Who else bore the direct brunt of this but Hynek,
the Air Force's number one civilian scientific advisor.

Six months later (2/66), an article appeared in Look Magazine by
author John Fuller. It concerned UFO incidents that allegedly
took place _one month_ after the Texas, New Mexico sightings,
beginning approximately Sept. 3, 1965 at Exeter, N.H. [4] (We
are all still trying to explain those folks.) The Exeter
sightings continued over a period of several weeks and were
claimed to have been witnessed by approximately 60 people
including police personnel.

Simply for the record, an odd coincidence had occurred just
_two_months_ after the claimed Exeter incidents, in November
1965, the lights went out along the Northeast coast. We were in
the midst of the 1st great Northeast Power Failure. [5]  After
all the "hubbub" died down, when the final report came in as to
the cause of the failure, it turned out to be a relay switch of
some kind that had tripped at Niagara Falls. No one knew _why_
it had tripped. They knew the sequence _after_ it tripped but
not the reason for its tripping.

And then, Hynek suffered another major embarrassment after a
rash of UFO sightings which occurred near Dexter/Hillsdale,
Michigan (3/66). Dr. Hynek flew to Dexter/Hillsdale to
investigate. Being pressed by reporters as to what he thought
the sightings might be, he guessed that some might possibly have
been _swamp gas_. [6]  The press jumped on this, and both the
newspapers and the public went crazy. They had had enough.  [7]

Although the Dexter/Hillsdale case wasn't the strongest, the
summation of the aforementioned circumstances, eventually led to
Congressional hearings on Capitol Hill. [8]  As some of you may
remember, those hearings ultimately led to an Air Force
sponsored University study concerning UFOs; it was none other
than the greatly disputed Condon Study or Colorado Project. [9]

In the end however, the Colorado (Condon) Report was negative
and the Air Force was finally able to shut down project Blue
Book and silence Hynek who had defected from their camp. [10]
Hynek disagreed with the report and bravely said so to other
scientists in no uncertain terms. [11]

So, why did Hynek take this incredible stand? The simple reason
is he spoke out because all his experience had indicated to him
other scientists were missing the mark with regard to this UFO
thing and he felt it wasn't totally impossible it might be the
most important scientific "event" to happen to mankind since man
discoved the sun didn't revolve around the earth.

He firmly believed in his heart and soul it was time to have the
rest of the world look closely at something extraordinary he
himself was not able to solve. Hence the Newsweek & Post
articles [12] and eventually his book "The UFO Experience"
which, amongst many other things finally explained to the public
why he had to break with the Air Force and disagree with the
Colorado report. [13] Hynek, the scientist, had looked at this
subject for a period of approximately 18 years. His in-depth
investigation for all those years indicated to him that the
Colorado Committee may have made a grave error; one the
scientist within him couldn't ignore.

Additionally, after evaluating what others that worked with him
closely have said about his character, etc. after his death,
[14] I am fairly certain Hynek's press releases were his honest
evaluation of the entire situation, written with hope the
Colorado committee would perform an honest assessment. As we all
know, this didn't happen back then.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

continued: Hynek 10/10/66 Newsweek.2 (footnotes)






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 14

                   Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:59:15 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:34:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: "Jerome Clark" <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"
>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 98 11:38:16 PST

>The above is quite amusing, of course.  The strategy ought to
>be familiar with those listfolk who recall America's traumatic
>experience in Vietnam.  As we were losing the war in the field
>and it was clear nothing was going to change in that regard,
>the late Vermont Senator George Aiken proposed a solution:
>declare victory and go home.  That's exactly what Gary is doing
>here.

Nope, not going to let this pass without a historical comment.
Nearly every historian now agrees that we were winning the war
in the field. Those reporting on TET now concede that it was an
American victory because the VC ceased to exist as a force after
TET was over.

Sorry, but it was the the negotiations held to "end" the war
that changed what was obvious to those in the field to a
"defeat" for the American side. Read the recent histories, even
those written from the communist perspective.

KRandle






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   Dec > Dec 14

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 22:42:56 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:53:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


Hello, List!

Some time ago, I posted the beginning of this thread (see
archives) as a starting point for a discussion regarding
abductions and the reasons why ETs bother returning victims,
erasing their memories and, further, how ETs observe humans on a
day to day basis. Considering the previous amount of discussion
on this list regarding abduction experiences, both first hand
and second hand, I thought this subject ripe for exploration.

While I got two short bites, basically this thread is dead!

What gives?

Dissapointed in Houston,
Roger Evans

P.S. If anybody missed my post in all the "us versus Alevy"
Hynek/Larsen furor, I'd be happy to resubmit it if EBK will let
me. Otherwise, I'd be happy to let it drop...

[Go ahead, post --ebk]





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   Dec > Dec 14

                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:02:56 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:22:27 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:55:48 -0600 (CST)
>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction

>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: How To Film An Abduction
>>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>>Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 01:37:16 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>In a long ago post (here, I think) I tried to create a list of
>>suggestions for possible evidence gathering from abductions. If
>>anyone is interested, I could repost.

>One idea I suggested to a lady who was a repeat abductee was the
>possibility of designing some sort of simple weight monitor to
>put under one's mattress.  It would also periodically record
>time marker ticks in some manner.

>It would monitor weight load during the night.  It would be
>totally inconspicuous.

Dear Brian:

I think you have a fine suggestion! Potentially effective, and
elegantly simple! Please see below ..

Well, perhaps .. it depends what devices were used. Perhaps
some sort of pressure transducer hidden inside a "heating pad"
for camouflage.

>If the abductee were gone for any length
>of time (to go to the john or for longer periods) that would be
>recorded. Such a monitor wouldn't tell you a lot, but it would
>definitely catch the time and duration of any absences.

I'll bet some of us get up to take a pee more often than we
think.  A very few might discover they are sleep walkers.

>More importantly, such a device wouldn't interfere much with the
>person's daily routine, perhaps unlike more overt monitoring
>systems I've seen suggested at times. You could pretty much
>ignore it unless something happened, or except to calibrate the
>timer ticks occasionally.

>And if the visitors are clever enough to de-activate it, well,
>that should show up on the recording too, and still provide some
>useful info, at least starting times.  Perhaps using a pen
>recorder rather than electronic recording would be better for
>such reasons.

I'm sure they could de-activate it .. but again this should
leave some signs.  We all toss and turn in our sleep, many
times in the night. A chart recorder trace should show these
motions. If the trace goes perfectly flat, say for an hour or
two,  it would be curious indeed!






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 14

                       Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:00:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:57:10 -0500
Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting


>From: Karl T. Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:22:13 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: C. B. Moore's '49 sighting


>Greetings List Folks --

>Prof. Moore and four U.S. Navy enlisted men made their sighting
>on 24 April 1949, not 28 April.  According to Moore's official
>report, he and his team had launched a balloon at 1020 Mountain
>Standard Time, and the UFO was sighted moments later.

>-- Yrs for accuracy, KARL


Yes, and Donald Menzel, in his first book ('Flying
Saucers',1953), called this the best case (between 1947 and
1953). He then went on to distort the information sufficiently
that he was able to propose the UFO was actually a mirage of the
balloon. Had be been accurate in his description rather than
Clintonesque any intelligent reader would have realized that his
explanation was unphysical garbage.






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   Dec > Dec 14

                                     Re:

From: Sergey Korchagin <neva@ns.comch.ru>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:53:59 +0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:16:58 -0500
Subject: Re:

[Non-Subscriber Post]

English

Genrih Silanov's laboratory of recearch of abnormal phenomena in
environment invites everybody to take part i expedition, that
will be in july 99 in Novohopersk abnormal zone.

We offer book "NLO v Voronezhe". It is result of our receach of
landing UFO in octouber 1989 in Voronezh.

We cto receach abnormal phenomena, such as "space memory",
plasma kind of life, paralel world, UFO.

We offer you materials and photos of "space memory" and UFO.

Contact us E-mail:  neva@ns.comch.ru

WEB: http:// www.comch.ru/~neva

Russian
=EC=C1=C2=CF=C1=D4=CF=C9=D1 =E7=C5=CE=C9=C8=C1 =F3=C9=CC=C1=CE=CF=C1 =D0=CF=
 =C9=DA=D5=DE=C5=CE=C9=C0 =C1=CE=CF=CD=C1=CC=D8=CE=D9=C8 =D1=CC=CE=C9=CA=
 =CF=CB=D5=D6=C1=C0=DD=C5=CA
=D3=C5=C4=C5 =D0=C9=C7=CC=C1=DB=C1=C5=D4  =D0=C9=CE=D1=D4=D8 =D5=DE=C1=D3=D4=
=C9=C5 =DC=CB=D3=D0=C5=C4=C9=C3=C9=C9 =EE=CF=CF=C8=CF=D0=C5=D3=CB=D5=C0=
 =C1=CE=CF=CD=C1=CC=D8=CE=D5=C0
=DA=CF=CE=D5 =CC=C5=D4=CF=CD 99 =C7=CF=C4=C1.
=F0=C5=C4=CC=C1=C7=C1=C5=CD =CB=CE=C9=C7=D5 "=EE=EC=EF =CF=CF=CE=C5=D6=C5"=
 =D0=CF =D3=CF=C2=D9=D4=C9=D1=CD =CF=CB=D4=D1=C2=D1 89 =C7=CF=C4=C1.
=F0=C9=C7=CC=C1=DB=C1=C5=CD =CB =D3=CF=D4=D5=C4=CE=C9=DE=C5=D3=D4=D5 =D0=CF=
 =C9=D3=D3=CC=C5=C4=CF=C1=CE=C9=C0 =C1=CE=CF=CD=C1=CC=D8=CE=D9=C8 =D1=CC=C5=
=CE=C9=CA: "=D0=C1=CD=D1=D4=D8
=D0=CF=CC=D1", =D0=CC=C1=DA=CD=C5=CE=CE=C1=D1 =C6=CF=CD=C1 =D6=C9=DA=CE=C9,=
 =D0=C1=C1=CC=CC=C5=CC=D8=CE=D9=C5 =CD=C9=D9, =EE=EC=EF
E-mail:  neva@ns.comch.ru





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 14

                            Kairos Press Release

From: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@usweb.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 02:43:10 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:34:16 -0500
Subject: Kairos Press Release


[Non-Subscriber Post]

Hello all,

Here is an advance draft of a release that will go over the wire
in final form on Monday morning.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE   PRESS CONTACT
December 14, 1998       Melinda Mattei
        650-558-0890
        mmattei@earthlink.net

Statement Issued Regarding the Authenticity of the MAJESTIC 12
Documents

SANTA CLARA, CA: December 14, 1998. The following statement was
released today by Joseph Firmage, chairman of the International
Space Sciences Organization, and primary author of The Truth
(www.TheWordIsTruth.org).

"Now that the new MAJESTIC 12 documents are in broad
circulation, it is appropriate for me to make a few comments
regarding their authenticity and their role in support of the
hypothesis contained in The Truth.

Let me first state for the record five key philosophical points
that frame my sponsorship of this initiative:

1- I have no economic motive in advancing this hypothesis or
these materials. I have every conceivable career disincentive
for pursuing this research. However, this line of discovery in
my opinion is more important than any individual's career, and I
am putting my money where my mouth is to do this.

2- Only those who have taken the time to read extensively in the
domain are qualified to assess the historicity of the UFO
phenomenon. Outright rejection of the evidence without
comprehensive review of the research in print across hundreds of
books is close-minded, unscientific, and indeed irresponsible in
the extreme. It is also quite understandable given decades of
government disinformation which, right or wrong in its genesis
and continuation, was specifically designed to create a "giggle
factor" surrounding the subject.

3- I will not selectively listen only to the evidence that
simply agrees with my own previously stated views, nor will I
reject evidence because it is contrary to conventional
presumptions of scientists. The case "for" the reality of the
UFO phenomenon is rather comprehensively summarized in The
Truth, and as credible and rigorous new evidence materializes,
it will be added to the site. As I discover rigorous skeptical
examinations of individual documentary or historical evidence, I
will include them also as part of the appropriate sections of
The Truth, and/or use them to modify my own position as
reflected in the narrative. Everyone will have the ability to
read such perspectives and decide for themselves what is true.

4- The UFO phenomenon can no longer be dismissed because of an
apparent incompatibility with the laws of physics, such as the
speed of light limitation on interstellar travel. There are now
numerous well-grounded physics papers and books in circulation
that clearly point towards the ability to engineer spacetime
itself, which effectively provide clear plausibility to the
concept of gravitational propulsion. If we have the intellectual
courage to take the Drake equation and project into it
technology capable of engineering gravity, we will be left not
only with the plausibility of something like the observed UFO
phenomenon, but the overwhelming likelihood of it. This is a
simple scientific fact.

5- I am unwaveringly committed to a rigorous pursuit of the
truth, wherever that may lead. www.TheWordIsTruth.org will
contain my best effort to present the complete and true story
spanning the subjects touched upon within it.

With those points as a foundation for the evolution of my book,
I would like to state my own views on the question of how the
authenticity of the MJ-12 materials bears on the historicity of
the events they describe.

After years of analysis of previously-published MJ-12 documents
(such as the work conducted by Stanton Friedman) and
particularly in light of the newly released MJ-12 documents, one
thing is clear to virtually all serious researchers regardless
of whether they believe in the pristine authenticity of the new
materials: many of the MJ-12 documents simply must have been
authored by or within the military-intelligence community of a
superpower. This fact alone speaks volumes when considered next
to the mountain of other UFO evidence. If the documents are
pristine and true, they were written by the individuals therein
mentioned or assistants. If the documents are partial or
complete forgeries, then they were written by an intelligence
agency of the government of either the United States or the
Soviet Union. In this sense, even the serious-minded skeptics
are hard pressed not to agree that they are "authentic" in terms
of military-intelligence authorship. The question is, could they
be authentic in military-intelligence authorship and not
authentic in detail? And if so, what does that say about the
most important authentication question of all: the basic history
they describe?

It is almost certain that the security infrastructures created
to contain the history of the crash of an extraterrestrial
vehicle in 1947 would ultimately wind up creating forgeries for
whatever purpose. Three ulterior purposes immediately spring to
mind: (1) documents seeded with small but critical flaws,
destined to one day leak and discredit their entire chains of
custody and all of the surrounding research, thereby helping to
seal the cover on the program, (2) documents fabricated to
mis-inform Cold War allies or enemies or proxies thereof about
the details of the events, and (3) documents fabricated to
disinform internal constituencies: competing branches of
government, particularly nosy investigators, diligent reporters,
or the public at large. But whether every single MJ-12 document
is completely accurate in historical detail, genuine in
authorship, or pristine in generation is not the issue. It is
obviously possible that an intelligence agency of either
superpower fabricated one or more of the documents for one of
the purposes described above, or some other purpose. However, I
believe that it is exceedingly improbable that such documents
were created in a vacuum - created as complete fiction, in the
complete absence of an authentic phenomenon and original
historical events. The mere existence of such documents as
these, containing the verifiable details that they do, is
powerful evidence for the reality of the basic storyline in the
history they recount.

Indeed, I have personally sat across the table from top leaders
and brilliant minds of the military and science, on multiple
occasions, who have confirmed the basic truth of the UFO
phenomenon. Those who know me best know that I would never have
bet my reputation and my career without such explicit
confirmation. I have nothing - nothing - to gain by lying. I am
telling the truth.

For those involved in UFO research, I strongly suggest that you
focus your energies on tying together the historical events and
people described in the documents, rather than exclusively
concentrating on the history of the pages themselves. As far as
"proving" the pristine authenticity of the MJ-12 documents and
their history is concerned, it is really only critical to
validate any one of the principal documents. If only a single
major document is validated, then MJ-12 was factual, and its
confirmed existence and basic mission is to be added to the
already overwhelming and far more powerful testimonial evidence
in favor of the reality of the UFO phenomenon. Focusing too much
time on the provenance of the pages themselves is a mistake,
because the most compelling proof that their storyline is
basically true - short of new materials or events unfolding - is
bound to come in the form of other corroborating historical
research and witness testimony.

In the final analysis, the skeptic is charged with doing far,
far more than discrediting these newly released documents
through speculative criticisms based upon typographical errors
or one or two seemingly anachronistic details, because the
historicity of the documents is not the most important question.
The most important question is the historicity of the phenomenon
they describe. There is OVERWHELMING evidence that the UFO
phenomenon is real. Therefore, ANY such well-crafted documents -
pristine in every detail or not - argue in behalf of the reality
of the UFO phenomenon. It is astronomically unlikely that the
massive and generally self-consistent evidence of
extraterrestrial activity over the past five decades is simply a
large coincidence or the product of a several good hoaxes.

I ask the skeptic to step forward and comprehensively refute all
the evidence: the millions of sightings, the thousands of
reported landings, the thousands of abduction experiences, and
the countless highly strange accompanying phenomena for which no
one yet has a clear explanation: crop circles, cattle
mutilations, etc. The refutation must take into account the
following facts: (1) compelling UFO evidence spans all nations,
modernized or not, regardless of whether their populations have
been exposed to science fiction, (2) the evidence spans far more
than 50 years - rather it goes back thousands of years, peppered
throughout the ancient books and scriptures of our ancestors,
and (3) the evidence is found to be exactly as it should be
found when describing a phenomenon advanced far beyond humanity:
it borders on the incomprehensible. How is a family of monkeys
to interpret a Palm Pilot III? Or a Boeing 777? Or a football
game? Or a scientist shooting at them with a dart to
tranquilize, abduct, examine, and release them? Such a
comparison is entirely fair and completely literal.

I am not aware of the existence of sufficient contrary data to
refute the massive accumulation of evidence supporting the
reality of the UFO phenomenon. Indeed, let me restate perhaps
the only truly powerful scientific argument against its
plausibility: gravitational propulsion is not possible,
therefore we have not been and are not being visited by beings
from other worlds. This argument is ultimately the only basis
upon which the UFO phenomenon can be rejected as a product of
our collective imagination.

So I ask you this: what if it is possible to engineer gravity?
100% of the scientific presumptions against interstellar travel
- and by direct implication extraterrestrial visitation - must
immediately be extinguished if there is a single credible
demonstration of practical gravity engineering. There is good
evidence to believe that open science is now flirting with such
a demonstration, and it is reported in my book.

But beyond the issue of UFOs, the hypothesis of The Truth
integrates the majestic history of science with the profound
history of faith. The reason I have not "called out" the MJ-12
documents within The Truth web site more prominently than the
narrative is because we can begin to comprehend the UFO
phenomenon only if we are capable of putting it into a coherent
world view. How else can the implications of such astonishing
information possibly be considered? The Truth represents one
best continuing effort to rigorously integrate a world view
given such knowledge. It proposes that several billion faithful
human beings across history have indeed been doing their
faltering best to follow their truth, just as several hundred
million scientists have done more recently. If we reject the
hypothesis of The Truth and nothing replaces it that can as
coherently connect science and faith in history, then we must
ask ourselves how we can avoid spiraling towards one of three
unambiguous and harsh futures: science deconstructing faith as
fantasy, religion destroying science as evil, or perhaps
economics destroying both as inefficient.

If the hypothesis of The Truth is correct, or if another
hypothesis can bring these questions into coherence with equal
completeness, then there is indeed a grander integrated story of
our history. In that case it is not only important, but vital at
this time to step beyond our preexisting world view and expand





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 14

             Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 06:57:23 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:38:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:02:09 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

>>>From: Kal Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com>
>>>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 06:54:23 EST
>>>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

>>>Dear List,

>>>As you all know, ironcially thanks to Billy Meier himself in his
>>>public statements, I was involved heavily in this show, and in
>>>Europe, and I can truthfully speak for my staff and myself at
>>>TotalResearch when I say it was an honor and privilege for us to
>>>work with Mr. Kiviat in helping find these truths.

>Let us not forget that this is the same Mr. Kiviat who brought
>us the original Alien Autopsy special, repeated several times
>and available on video tape. The same Mr. Kiviat who took
>statements out of context and manipulated the editing of his
>original piece so that it sounded as if some of those
>interviewed were endorsing the autopsy hoax.

>The question that comes to mind is if Kiviat is looking for the
>truth or if he is looking for another highly rated special where
>the truth gets buried. That's what happened the last time. I
>know. I was there.


I don't have the time to get involved in a long debate about
this program.

Let me just say that I had several discussions with Bob Kiviat
about this new program.  He indicated he would interview me for
use in the program.  He never did.

It seems odd to omit the person who has probably done the most
serious research on the AA film if your real goal is to get to
the truth.

But, I know from my conversations that Bob's real goal is to
"get even" with Ray Santilli.  He said as much.  I think his
judgement on this matter has been clouded by his personal
animosity toward Ray Santilli, and he has been unable to step
away and look at the AA film by itself, divorced from its
surroundings.  He isn't even able to discuss Santilli without
losing his temper and "going ballistic" on the phone.  He has
lost all objectivity on this subject.





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                  Re: Insight On The Fox Special and Kiviat

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 02:27:48 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:42:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Insight On The Fox Special and Kiviat

>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:16:32 -0800
>From: Don Ecker <decker@ufomag.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Insight On The Fox Special and Kiviat

Dear Don

I just read yours and Stanton's posts re the Hoax Special.

I was interviewed by Kiviat's crew for this programme. I did it
at the request of Philip Mantle who I believe is a good
researcher here in the UK.

I received no fees for this, in fact they wanted to interview
the source of the information but he was unwilling to come
forward without a considerable fee, although Kiviat did speak to
him as far as I know.

I have not met Kiviat or seen any of his programme's, but I was
concerned at the way I might be edited if the piece is used in
the special, that's why I always prefer Live TV. It was the end
of a nightmare Monday and I was not really prepared for this
last minute interview so they had to do several takes at a
London venue.

I only spoke to Kiviat on the phone but was under the impression
they had done their homework.

As you may know, I am open minded on the subject of the
"unexplained". Early in the day I had received information about
the alleged source of the original "small" piece of footage
regarding the Alien Autopsy. This was published in my
"Sightings" column and on CompuServe UFO forum. Ray Santilli
denied it - said it was nonsense.

I always had problems with the "Cameraman" story right from the
beginning.

At the end of the day I suppose one has to understand that Ray
Santilli is a businessman and as far as I know he has no
interest in the subject of UFO's.

Unfortunately, it is the hoaxes and disinformation that take up
so much of our valuable time when it comes to research.

I have never claimed that the "small" piece of AA footage might
be a hoax, but as far as I know there was not enough to make a
video. One might speculate that a film maker would take the
original and work around it.The reputable BBC TV have just been
exposed for using bogus footage in their documentaries. One such
piece of fake footage was alleged to be that of the Titanic, but
in fact it was its sister ship.

I told Kiviat's man that he may want to check out another source
with regards to possible "genuine" AA footage, but he didn't
seem interested. Again, theirs is a business venture and that's
all.

I'm still waiting for the preview tape of the programme which
Kiviat's man promised to send me before it aired.

For possible "real" AA footage, one might want to seek out some
of the retired staff of "Disney".

Congratulations on your new site.

Sincerely
Georgina Bruni





* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Georgina Bruni
Editor in Chief of HOT GOSSIP UK
www.hotgossip.co.uk

E-mail: georgina@easynet.co.uk
E-mail: 104707.336@compuserve.com
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *





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             Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:15:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:55:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.


>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:59:20
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

>At 08:41 AM 12/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>From: Kal Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com>
>>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 06:54:23 EST
>>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

Kal,

All this truth hunt must take much of your time and I am afraid
you have lost my post in the shuffle.  I am thus sending it
again to the List.

I am sure someone of your stature will not to resist my call -
plead? - for you to be our light shining through the chaos.

Serge Salvaille

><snip>

>Kal,

>>As we approach the new millenium, the time has come to start
>>bringing accountability into the UFO and paranormal fields, and
>>to do everything to help ensure that we separate 'fact from
>>ficiton", as Bob Kiviat often says, and most certainly means.

>Amen and 10-4 on that one.

>Fiction is, in this field, sometimes a matter of point of view
>(Roswell, MJ-12 for instance), sometimes a matter of making money
>(FOX's diffusion of the AA film 3 years ago), sometimes a matter of
>exploiting people's gullibility (the Meier case probably).

>The last time you posted something on the List, you seemed to be in
>quite a hurry and did not have the time to get deeper into any
>subject.

>I am sure everybody is interested in facts.  You have already taken
>your stance on what is _fiction_, I will not dispute that.

>Could you summarize your position on the _facts_ pertaining to the
>subject of UFOs?... Not to ufology nor to ufologists mind you, but to
>UFOs.

>Any future plans with Kiviat on coming forward with some of those
>facts?

>Eagerly awaiting your response,






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              Invitation For Co-Operation For Research Abnormal

From: Sergey Korchagin <neva@ns.comch.ru>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:53:59 +0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:04:02 -0500
Subject: Invitation For Co-Operation For Research Abnormal

[Non-Subscriber Post]

English

Genrih Silanov's laboratory of recearch of abnormal phenomena in
environment invites everybody to take part i expedition, that
will be in july 99 in Novohopersk abnormal zone.

We offer book "NLO v Voronezhe". It is result of our receach of
landing UFO in octouber 1989 in Voronezh.

We cto receach abnormal phenomena, such as "space memory",
plasma kind of life, paralel world, UFO.

We offer you materials and photos of "space memory" and UFO.

Contact us E-mail:  neva@ns.comch.ru

WEB: http:// www.comch.ru/~neva

Russian
=EC=C1=C2=CF=C1=D4=CF=C9=D1 =E7=C5=CE=C9=C8=C1 =F3=C9=CC=C1=CE=CF=C1 =D0=CF=
 =C9=DA=D5=DE=C5=CE=C9=C0 =C1=CE=CF=CD=C1=CC=D8=CE=D9=C8 =D1=CC=CE=C9=CA=
 =CF=CB=D5=D6=C1=C0=DD=C5=CA
=D3=C5=C4=C5 =D0=C9=C7=CC=C1=DB=C1=C5=D4  =D0=C9=CE=D1=D4=D8 =D5=DE=C1=D3=D4=
=C9=C5 =DC=CB=D3=D0=C5=C4=C9=C3=C9=C9 =EE=CF=CF=C8=CF=D0=C5=D3=CB=D5=C0=
 =C1=CE=CF=CD=C1=CC=D8=CE=D5=C0
=DA=CF=CE=D5 =CC=C5=D4=CF=CD 99 =C7=CF=C4=C1.
=F0=C5=C4=CC=C1=C7=C1=C5=CD =CB=CE=C9=C7=D5 "=EE=EC=EF =CF=CF=CE=C5=D6=C5"=
 =D0=CF =D3=CF=C2=D9=D4=C9=D1=CD =CF=CB=D4=D1=C2=D1 89 =C7=CF=C4=C1.
=F0=C9=C7=CC=C1=DB=C1=C5=CD =CB =D3=CF=D4=D5=C4=CE=C9=DE=C5=D3=D4=D5 =D0=CF=
 =C9=D3=D3=CC=C5=C4=CF=C1=CE=C9=C0 =C1=CE=CF=CD=C1=CC=D8=CE=D9=C8 =D1=CC=C5=
=CE=C9=CA: "=D0=C1=CD=D1=D4=D8
=D0=CF=CC=D1", =D0=CC=C1=DA=CD=C5=CE=CE=C1=D1 =C6=CF=CD=C1 =D6=C9=DA=CE=C9,=
 =D0=C1=C1=CC=CC=C5=CC=D8=CE=D9=C5 =CD=C9=D9, =EE=EC=EF
E-mail:  neva@ns.comch.ru
WEB: http:// www.comch.ru/~neva

=F4=C5=CD=C1: [Fwd: midair ufo crash]







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                  -=[For The Record]=- C.E.: Frank Edwards

From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:15:53 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:49:07 -0500
Subject: -=[For The Record]=- C.E.: Frank Edwards


Greetings to the List

I was rumaging around in my file cabinets yesterday and came
across some memories of my friend, Frank Edwards. A few years
before Frank died, I sent him the first copy of AFR 200-5 most
had seen outside the Air Force. I was a WAF at the time, and
remember how paranoid I felt by sending Frank a copy. He
promised he would not, under any circumstances let anyone know
where he got it from. He kept his word. I had reason to fear
discovery because the regulation was not to be sent outside USAF
channels at that time.

I ran across Frank's autobiography in my file cabinet and sat
down for a while to not only recollect my memories of Frank, but
to read a short section from his book about how he got involved
in the Flying Saucer controversy. For sake of clarity, the
following comes from "My First 10,000,000 Sponsors," by Frank
Edwards. Ballantine Books, 1956.

Wendy Connors

---

"A few weeks later my supporters on the AFL Executive Council
managed to outmaneuver the opposition and I was selected. I flew
to New York to sign the contracts for the AFL broadcasts which
were to orginate from Washington, starting January 2, 1950. when
I got back to Indianapolis I found my friend, WIBC newsman
Gordon Graham, waiting for me.

He handed me a big brown envelope, bulky with papers. 'I got
this by mistake,' said Gordon. 'It's a hell of a story and I
know that you have been interested in this business. Do what you
want with it...just keep me out of it, please.'

When I upended the envelope, out slid a rough advance copy of
'True' magazine, an issue scheduled to hit the newstands in less
than two weeks from that moment. The featured article was by
Major Donald Keyhoe, U.S. Marine Corps, (Ret.) and top flight
aviation writer. I looked at the title of his contribution and
whistled through my teeth.

'The Flying Saucers Are Real!'

Are they?...

...What may some day be the greatest news story of all time
began on the afternoon of June 23, 1947. A railroad engineer
called the newspaper in Cedar Rapids, Iowa to report that he had
seen something very strange in the air that day.

'They looked like ten shiny, disc-shaped things,' he said. 'They
were very, very high, fluttering along in a string and pretty
soon they vanished toward the northwest'... Railroad engineers
are not regarded by newspapers as authorities on aerial
phenomenon. His report made only a few lines on the news tickers
and was dropped during the early evening reports.

Next day the storm broke. [Franks talks about Kenneth Arnold]...

What are these unidentified flying objects? Are they fact or
fantasy? Let's look at the record.

The sightings of 1947 created intense public interest and then
ceased as dramatically as they had begun. In 1948 I went to
Alaska and made movies of that majestic land. While I was there
I made inquiries about the mysterious UFO's - and I found
numerous civilian fliers who had reported the things. I talked
with two jet pilots who had reported chasing a strange wingless
object that looked like the fuselague of a wingless B-29, with
no visible means of propulsion. Then I got a spray job from the
Air Force in Alaska, whose representatives slyly hinted that
they knew all about the things. And, unofficially of course,
they could assure me that there was nothing to be concerned
about. The UFO's are ours!

I must hang my head in shame and admit that I fell for their
story, for a while at least. Then came that night in the winter
of 1949 when Gordon Graham gave me that package - the advance
copy of an article which 'True' magazine had scheduled for
release in its January, 1950, issue. Written by Major Donald
Keyhoe, it methodically punctured the Air Force shield of
confusion and presented an imposing array of factual matter to
support his statements.

When I saw what the package contained I realized that time was
very short if I was going to break the story before it hit the
newsstands. After my network broadcast that night, I put in a
call for the editor of 'True,' Mr. Ken Purdy, and finally got
him out of bed at his home in Westport, Connecticut. He was
unhappy about that and he was even less happy when he learned
that I had come into possession of that advance copy.

'Let you break it?' he snapped. 'I don't see how I can do that;
we've already made arrangements with Walter Winchell to give him
first break on the story. If you beat him to it he will probably
blow his stack and then ---'

I persisted and he resisted. The phone call was beginning to
cost real money. Purdy knew, of course, that I could break the
story without his consent. We finally agreed that I could go
ahead with it the following night, providing I used not more
than two hundred words of the text. It was a good deal for both
of us.

My preview of that forthcoming magazine article got nationwide
coverage through Mutual and again by way of the news services
which reprinted what I said the following morning. The Air Force
was peeved at me, a state of mind from which they have never
fully recovered, as far as I am concerned. A few days after my
broadcast Winchell and Lowell Thomas picked up the story from
'True' and the flying saucer controversy was off for another
round...

Sometime soon we expect to launch our first man-made satellite.
This will be but a humble beginning, a flimsy aerial canoe
crawling along the rim of space. Man, too, is planning to visit
his neighbors some day. It hurts his pride to feel that he may
already owe them a visit."

---

I miss my friend very much.

If you would like copies of the whole 21 pages of the chapter, I
will send them to you for $2 to cover paper, toner, postage and
envelope. Send cash to Wendy Connors, P.O. Box 8552,
Albuquerque, NM 87198. Be sure to include your mailing address.

Wendy Connors

Project SIGN Research Center
InterLink Site Directory





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                               Hoagland Issue

From: Mark Haywood <mark.haywood@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:15:48 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:06:58 -0500
Subject: Hoagland Issue

[FYI _Only_ - Not For Discussion --ebk]

After visiting Richard Hoagland's site I saw his latest "weather
data" about the anomalous events in Arizona.  One of the images
is from the accuweather web site.

I e-mailed them to find out what the situation was regarding the
post. Here are my questions and the response I received :-


Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 20:58:04 +0000
From: Mark Haywood <mark.haywood@easynet.co.uk>
Subject: Anomalous event over Arizona
To: ypaw@accuwx.com


I am requesting help over an alleged incident that is currently
being bandied about the internet

There was supposedly going to be a UFO incident in Arizona on
the 7th of

December.  The incident never took place, but at the site below
is an animated graphic of weather supposedly taken from your
site.  It seems to show a "skull" type cloud formation appearing
over the USA.

Could you please verify that the image has not been doctored in
any way, and how it ended up on this particular site!

http://members.tripod.com/~DELTA_9/index.html

Many thanks for your time

Mark Haywood

-----

Mark,

This is very funny - all the images are not altered - but all
this is is an excellent collection of ground clutter and radar
test patterns - not UFO related at all.

Unfortunately at this time our algorithms cant take out these
test patterns which are issued when the radar is under
maintenance.


Brandi Say

Internet Client Service Representative
sayb@accuwx.com
http://www.accuweather.com
http://personal.accuweather.com

-----

No doubt the next posting will about a cover-up from the





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                          Re: Abduction of Blacks?

From: Stephen Lewis <stephen.lewis@tsl.state.tx.us>
Date: 14 Dec 1998 17:13:04 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:03:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks?


>From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis@ccsi.com>
>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:54:21 -0500
>Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 18:39:57 -0500
>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>For that matter, if anyone on the list is in contact with
>Hopkins, Strieber, Jacobs, Mack and others who are likely to
>have significant databases on UFO/abduction experiencers,
>please send them a message asking simply what percentage of
>their contacts is Black (and go ahead and ask for an across the
>board list of other ethnicities) so we can get some actual data
>on this real question that has been raised on this list.

Well we are still waiting for data from all our MUFON, FUFOR,
CUFOS, BUFORA colleagues on this issue. It should be simple
enough to get a figure as to what percentage of close encounter
and abduction reports come from each ethnic group.

Mr. Hopkins, you've got to have some data on this.
What about you Dr. Mack?
And what about Dr. Leo Sprinkle?
Or Dr. John Carpenter?
Or Dr. David Gotlib?
Oh yeah, how 'bout you Mr. Strieber?

What about all you subscribers who have your own databases?

Is there any on-line info on the Roper Poll? It has been
suggested within this thread that we should look into its
data as it pertains to ethnicity.

>... when was it first suggested that their were
>geographical archetypes of UFO occupants/entities? i.e. North
>American Gray, South American Hairy Dwarf, Anglo-European
>Nordic, Mediterranean/East Indian Humanoid (short black hair
>widows peak style)? Was this trend in entity demographics
>reported as evident as far back as the late sixties, early
>seventies. I think John Spencer's 'World Atlas of UFOs' dealt
>with this a little  at the beginning of each chapter's
>geocentric introdruction.

I am still looking for the earliest suggestion of the above.

I have not found the "first" reference of this idea but just
rewatched _UFO Contact:Alien Abductions_ which featured Clark,
Webb, Rodegher [sic], Swords, Eberhart, Gotlib, Grosso, Bullard,
Mack, Hopkins and others. It features lots of info from
Bullard's _Measure of a Mystery_;

It tells of his study of 281 abduction cases which yield an
interesting spread of cases from around the world:

North American = 50%
South American = 23%
Europe = 18%
Other = 8%

Each of the above was broken down into actual numbers per
country. The voice over on the charts was of Bullard discussing
these numbers and stating they had none from Asian countries.

Now I think we all know that 281 abduction cases is a small
sampling, and we can all probly find Asian cases, plus this
study is several years old (a decade?).

But the most interesting bit which I knew was on this video was
CUFOS archivist George Eberhart stating that, tho' there were
European abduction type cases, these generally featured the
Nordic Space Brother types instead of the standard gray. He went
on to say that this was generally "swept under the rug" that
there was a geographic characteristic to the types of humanoids
reported by close encounter / abduction witnesses. This
geographic breakdown was as I had previously stated: North
American Gray, European Blonde/Nordic Space Brother, and the
South American Hairy Dwarf types.

So I ask again, is anyone on this list familiar with this
observation and where is the first/earliest noting of same?

I will keep looking.

SMiles





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                    Flash RADAR? Evil Weather from HAARP?

From: Michael Theroux <theroux@borderlands.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:37:39 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:05:54 -0500
Subject: Flash RADAR? Evil Weather from HAARP?

[FYI _Only_ - Not For Discussion --ebk]

Here's the latest update on what all this Radar/HAARP stuff is about:

"Flash RADAR? Evil Weather from HAARP? or Maybe Just Tabloid Science..."

At: http://www.borderlands.com/newstuff/research/nexrad/flashrad.htm

Thank you

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael Theroux
Director
Borderland Sciences Research Foundation - Since 1945
http://www.borderlands.com
theroux@borderlands.com
Ph. 707.825.7733 FAX: 707.825.7779





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             Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:52:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:08:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

Regarding...

>From: Kal Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 06:54:23 EST
>Subject: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

Kal wrote:

>As many of you know, there have been rumors floating around in the
>media about this Fox special for months. Indeed, noneother than Meier
>himself stepped forward, and because of this special, confessed that
>dozens more of his UFO & UFO-related photos are hoaxes. He did this
>months ago.


Kal,

The FOX press release states:

"Also featured is a rare interview with Meier himself, who defends his
world-famous footage despite the massive evidence against him".

How is the apparent contradiction explained - does Meier admit to
hoaxing many of the photographs, yet still maintain much of his
material is genuine?


>Those who study UFOs, Bigfoot, Alien Autopsy, Meier, the Loch Ness
>Monster, etc., owe a tremendous gratitiude to Mr. Bob Kiviat, who had
>the journalisitic integrity and drive to hire a crew that could and
>has finally solved these cases, and others. The _truth_ is what
>mattered, and we got those truths.

FOX make the bold statement:

"Never-before-seen footage and new technological evidence will expose
the truths behind the most sensational of legends -- Bigfoot, the Loch
Ness Monster, the Alien Autopsy and Flying Saucers...".

FOX are not going to expose "the truths" behind the 'Loch Ness
monster' legend or 'flying saucers'!

At best, they may make a contribution towards explaining some evidence
relating to both.


They claim:

"Bigfoot -- for more than 30 years, this creature allegedly spotted
in the Pacific Northwest has captivated the world. Skeptics, however,
now believe that amazing footage of the seven-foot-tall legendary
beast caught disappearing into the woods in 1967 was actually created
by a film company to gain interest in other nature movies it was
making. In an exclusive interview, a man with inside knowledge breaks
three decades of silence to reveal compelling reasons why this film
is thought to be an elaborate hoax".

If only 'believed' to have been created by a film company and "thought
to be" a hoax - then presumably the program won't present any proof
in either respect?

Even with my basic knowledge of the original 'Bigfoot' film and
accepting it is such an obvious hoax, this 'film company' theory
doesn't appear to address some key points.

An excellent, scientific investigation into the original Paterson film
was undertaken by British naturalist Chris Packham, the 'Bigfoot'
story featuring in Chris' 'X-Creatures', series, broadcast by the BBC
earlier this year.

Its content is maybe relatively unknown outwith the UK.

Chris and his team set out to recreate the footage, in the exact same
Bluff Creek, California location and using similar 16mm camera
equipment as the original. This invaluable exercise highlighted some
interesting evidence - one point being that the film was shot much
closer to the 'creature' than perhaps realised.

If I recall correctly, Chris also located and spoke to Robert Gimlin,
Paterson's companion who witnessed the events and who had for some
time been reticent to speak about the story.

He confirmed to Chris, via a recorded telephone conversation, that he
now accepted the incident was possibly a hoax in which he may have
been duped.

Some other issues would benefit form hearing first of all what the FOX
special has to say.


The FOX press release continues:

"The Loch Ness Monster -- a 1936 newsreel of a dinosaur-like creature
seen in the waters of Scotland started this legend and has held the
world in fright for more than 60 years. In 1977, new pictures of the
sea monster provided evidence of its existence that seemed too good
to be true. The special reveals why these startling pictures are
fake...".

At a guess, this relates to the two photographs taken, allegedly, on
21 May, 1977 near Urquhart Castle.

The most compelling evidence against any large creature living in Loch
Ness is that the Loch is actually relatively barren and doesn't
contain the food supply necessary to sustain one such large creature,
let alone a family of them over countless thousands of years.

Even if it can be proven the two photographs in question are fakes -
rather than merely offering evidence they might be - nothing that FOX
will broadcast can impact on the above central fact, or the local
sightings at the onset of each tourist season. ;)


Also, from FOX:

"The Alien Autopsy -- In 1995, footage of an alien autopsy supposedly
taken at Roswell in 1947 came to the public's eye and was showcased
in the highly-rated FOX special 'Alien Autopsy: Fact Or Fiction?' Now,
for the first time anywhere, one of the actors who took part in
staging the alien autopsy ruse steps forward..."

According to other information posted:

"Kiviat, who says he always doubted the truth of the alien autopsy,
describes his specials as having "a documentary spin." Digital
enhancement revealed a previously invisible face in a segment of very
dark footage. Four months of what he calls "Woodward and
Bernstein-type journalism" enabled his researchers to track down the
actor with that face".

This sounds like it could only relate to the 'tent footage', which
isn't the 'alien autopsy'.


Maybe FOX have somehow identified one of the actors from the 'alien
autopsy' itself. I would not only be most surprised if they have, I
would - foolishly or otherwise - be confident they haven't.

"...and all-new footage and NASA-type video enhancements shed new
light on how one of the biggest hoaxes of all time was actually
accomplished".

"All-new footage" again sounds like the 'tent footage', which is an
entirely separate entity and which Ray Santilli has already publicly
distanced himself from.

As regards "NASA-type video enhancements".... not quite sure what that
means.

Unless FOX have something truly significant - which I must doubt for
various reasons - Ray Santilli will not be troubled.

Surely it would have profited FOX to highlight Theresa Carlson's
research, which did offer what was tantamount to the only documented
_proof_ of a SFX hoax. I know Robert Kiviat was aware of Theresa's
work, yet see no mention of it.


FOX again:

"Also, other inside sources and top professionals dispute the
authenticity of the famed autopsy..."

Nothing new in that - why would this be necessary if the TV special
had _proven_ it was a hoax?


"...exposing further secrets about the origin of the footage".

Whether factual, we will no doubt hear in due course.


Just for information, I can still recall that Robert Kiviat's first
reported involvement with the 'alien autopsy' affair was at the
inaugural 'Museum of London' showing, on 5 May, 1995. Matthew
Williams, reporting in 'UFO Magazine' (UK) [July/August 1995], stated:

"I was sitting next to Bob Kiviat during the screening, and he asked
what I thought of the footage. I said that it was impressive and
certainly looked like a very good representation of an alien, but that
the film would still have to be verified. He seemed to think that it
would be a very difficult task to fake such footage and he stated that
his interest was only in the way it will make a hit on the television
viewing public. As such, he stated to me that he was not too worried
if it were faked or not".


I look forward to hearing what is revealed on the FOX program. Any
meaningful factual evidence would naturally be welcome and your
efforts are appreciated.



James.





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             Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:52:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:10:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.


Regarding...

>From: Kal Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 06:54:23 EST
>Subject: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

Kal wrote:

>As many of you know, there have been rumors floating around in the
>media about this Fox special for months. Indeed, noneother than Meier
>himself stepped forward, and because of this special, confessed that
>dozens more of his UFO & UFO-related photos are hoaxes. He did this
>months ago.


Kal,

The FOX press release states:

"Also featured is a rare interview with Meier himself, who
defends his world-famous footage despite the massive evidence
against him".

How is the apparent contradiction explained - does Meier admit
to hoaxing many of the photographs, yet still maintain much of
his material is genuine?


>Those who study UFOs, Bigfoot, Alien Autopsy, Meier, the Loch
Ness >Monster, etc., owe a tremendous gratitiude to Mr. Bob
Kiviat, who had >the journalisitic integrity and drive to hire a
crew that could and >has finally solved these cases, and others.
The _truth_ is what >mattered, and we got those truths.

FOX make the bold statement:

"Never-before-seen footage and new technological evidence will
expose the truths behind the most sensational of legends --
Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, the Alien Autopsy and Flying
Saucers...".

FOX are not going to expose "the truths" behind the 'Loch Ness
monster' legend or 'flying saucers'!

At best, they may make a contribution towards explaining some
evidence relating to both.


They claim:

"Bigfoot -- for more than 30 years, this creature allegedly
spotted in the Pacific Northwest has captivated the world.
Skeptics, however, now believe that amazing footage of the
seven-foot-tall legendary beast caught disappearing into the
woods in 1967 was actually created by a film company to gain
interest in other nature movies it was making. In an exclusive
interview, a man with inside knowledge breaks three decades of
silence to reveal compelling reasons why this film is thought to
be an elaborate hoax".

If only 'believed' to have been created by a film company and
"thought to be" a hoax - then presumably the program won't
present any proof in either respect?

Even with my basic knowledge of the original 'Bigfoot' film and
accepting it is such an obvious hoax, this 'film company' theory
doesn't appear to address some key points.

An excellent, scientific investigation into the original
Paterson film was undertaken by British naturalist Chris
Packham, the 'Bigfoot' story featuring in Chris' 'X-Creatures',
series, broadcast by the BBC earlier this year.

Its content is maybe relatively unknown outwith the UK.

Chris and his team set out to recreate the footage, in the exact
same Bluff Creek, California location and using similar 16mm
camera equipment as the original. This invaluable exercise
highlighted some interesting evidence - one point being that the
film was shot much closer to the 'creature' than perhaps
realised.

If I recall correctly, Chris also located and spoke to Robert
Gimlin, Paterson's companion who witnessed the events and who
had for some time been reticent to speak about the story.

He confirmed to Chris, via a recorded telephone conversation,
that he now accepted the incident was possibly a hoax in which
he may have been duped.

Some other issues would benefit form hearing first of all what
the FOX special has to say.


The FOX press release continues:

"The Loch Ness Monster -- a 1936 newsreel of a dinosaur-like
creature seen in the waters of Scotland started this legend and
has held the world in fright for more than 60 years. In 1977,
new pictures of the sea monster provided evidence of its
existence that seemed too good to be true. The special reveals
why these startling pictures are fake...".

At a guess, this relates to the two photographs taken,
allegedly, on 21 May, 1977 near Urquhart Castle.

The most compelling evidence against any large creature living
in Loch Ness is that the Loch is actually relatively barren and
doesn't contain the food supply necessary to sustain one such
large creature, let alone a family of them over countless
thousands of years.

Even if it can be proven the two photographs in question are
fakes - rather than merely offering evidence they might be -
nothing that FOX will broadcast can impact on the above central
fact, or the local sightings at the onset of each tourist
season. ;)


Also, from FOX:

"The Alien Autopsy -- In 1995, footage of an alien autopsy
supposedly taken at Roswell in 1947 came to the public's eye and
was showcased in the highly-rated FOX special 'Alien Autopsy:
Fact Or Fiction?' Now, for the first time anywhere, one of the
actors who took part in staging the alien autopsy ruse steps
forward..."

According to other information posted:

"Kiviat, who says he always doubted the truth of the alien
autopsy, describes his specials as having "a documentary spin."
Digital enhancement revealed a previously invisible face in a
segment of very dark footage. Four months of what he calls
"Woodward and Bernstein-type journalism" enabled his researchers
to track down the actor with that face".

This sounds like it could only relate to the 'tent footage',
which isn't the 'alien autopsy'.


Maybe FOX have somehow identified one of the actors from the
'alien autopsy' itself. I would not only be most surprised if
they have, I would - foolishly or otherwise - be confident they
haven't.

"...and all-new footage and NASA-type video enhancements shed
new light on how one of the biggest hoaxes of all time was
actually accomplished".

"All-new footage" again sounds like the 'tent footage', which is
an entirely separate entity and which Ray Santilli has already
publicly distanced himself from.

As regards "NASA-type video enhancements".... not quite sure
what that means.

Unless FOX have something truly significant - which I must doubt
for various reasons - Ray Santilli will not be troubled.

Surely it would have profited FOX to highlight Theresa Carlson's
research, which did offer what was tantamount to the only
documented _proof_ of a SFX hoax. I know Robert Kiviat was aware
of Theresa's work, yet see no mention of it.


FOX again:

"Also, other inside sources and top professionals dispute the
authenticity of the famed autopsy..."

Nothing new in that - why would this be necessary if the TV
special had _proven_ it was a hoax?


"...exposing further secrets about the origin of the footage".

Whether factual, we will no doubt hear in due course.


Just for information, I can still recall that Robert Kiviat's
first reported involvement with the 'alien autopsy' affair was
at the inaugural 'Museum of London' showing, on 5 May, 1995.
Matthew Williams, reporting in 'UFO Magazine' (UK) [July/August
1995], stated:

"I was sitting next to Bob Kiviat during the screening, and he
asked what I thought of the footage. I said that it was
impressive and certainly looked like a very good representation
of an alien, but that the film would still have to be verified.
He seemed to think that it would be a very difficult task to
fake such footage and he stated that his interest was only in
the way it will make a hit on the television viewing public. As
such, he stated to me that he was not too worried if it were
faked or not".


I look forward to hearing what is revealed on the FOX program.
Any meaningful factual evidence would naturally be welcome and
your efforts are appreciated.


James.





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   Dec > Dec 15

                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:15:47 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:15:11 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


My own couple pence:

It might not be a bad idea to get a couple analog watches (you
know, the "hands" type), and synchronize them down to the
millisecond, if possible. Have the abductee wear one, or keep it
close by the bed. Retain the other as a control. If there are
any "spatial anomalies" (a phrase without which any Star Trek
episode's dialogue would be reduced by half) present during the
abduction, the watch may show evidence of it as a discrepancy in
time.

Also, some sort of analog magnetic field and/or electric field
measuring device in the proximity of the abductees could show
something, particularly if the abductor's craft is in the
vicinity, and employs any sort of magnetic or plasma propulsion.

Another nifty device might be something capable of recording a
wide range of sound frequencies. Of course, in all these cases,
we must assume our visitors could interrupt the power supply if
it's electric, so I guess these things will have to record on
paper like a seismograph, and be powered by springs. At least
the visitors will have to make the effort to walk over and turn
all the damn things off.

If we can't stop them, at least we can harrass them.






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                   Summary of 12/17/66 Hynek Post Article

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:57:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:19:22 -0500
Subject: Summary of 12/17/66 Hynek Post Article


The 12/17/66 Hynek Saturday Evening Post article is a paper Dr.
J. Allen Hynek wrote summating his approximately 18 years tenure
(at that point) as civilian scientific consultant to the Air
Force concerning UFOs. It was written with hope for the newly
formed Colorado (Condon) Study, which I believe began in October
of that year.

Most of the points Hynek makes therein are summarized below:

1)      He agrees with the Air Force for the most part but there
        were cases he could not solve.

2)      The quality of the witnesses was  high.

3)      He is hopeful concerning the new Air Force study.
        (J.C.  i.e. The Colorado [Condon] Study)

4)      Nearly all his scientific colleagues have scoffed at the
        reports of UFOs.

5)      The question of UFOs has developed into a battle of
        faiths. Something of this importance should be decided
        scientifically.

6)      The Air Force made up its own mind about each case and
        did not always take his recommendations.

7)      The Air Force had a tendency to upgrade its cases from
        "possible aircraft" to "probable aircraft" (without
        proper scientific review, he felt)

8)      "The Air Force has never really devoted enough money or
        attention to the problem of UFO's to get to the bottom of
        the puzzling cases."

9)      Blue Book was headed by a captain and consisted of two
        officers and a sergeant. Its value to the Air Force is
        plainly demonstrated by observing the low ranks of its
        assigned officers and observing their place in the Air
        Force's organizational hierarchy.

10)     In 1952 Hynek wrote a paper saying that UFOs deserved
        more study.

11)     His paper spurred the formation of the Robertson Panel in
        1953.

12)     The panel studied 15 cases out of several hundreds and
        made its decision in a very short period of time.

13)     Hynek was only an observer at the hearings, but if he had
        been asked to sign the results of the panel decision, he
        would have refused.

14)     Hynek mentions APRO and NICAP as vigilante groups formed
        in response to the Air Force's lack of in-depth study.
        "These groups were often the recipients of intriguing
        reports that never came to the official attention of
        Project Blue Book."

15)     Hynek gradually began to accumulate cases "...that I
        really couldn't explain, cases reported by reliable,
        sincere people whom I often interviewed in person."

16)     He found "...that the persons making these reports were
        often not acquainted with UFO's before their experience,
        which baffled and thoroughly frightened them."

17)     They were often reluctant to report their sightings.

18)     In the public eye he was becoming known as a debunker yet
        privately he was becoming concerned about good reports
        from reputable people.

19)     *** "I feel it is my responsibility to point out that
        enough puzzling sightings have been reported by
        intelligent and often technically competent people to
        warrant closer attention than Project Blue Book can
        possibly encompass at the present time." ***

20)     Hynek explains, in detail, what happened with the "Swamp
        Gas" Michigan case. (and shows us how the Condon Study
        came into being.)

21)     He gives 4 possible explanations for UFOs.

        a.  Nonsense, Hoaxes, Hallucinations?   Enough evidence
            has accumulated to prove they are _not_ all utter
            nonsense, the result of hoaxes or hallucinations

        b.  military weapons?  They are usually tested in very
            limited geographical areas. Why would anyone test
            them in scores of nations? You couldn't prevent a
            security leak.

        c.  Outer space?        He agrees with the Air Force but
            feels we should keep an open mind. If other beings
            have a greater life span than humans, travel these
            vast distances might be possible.

        d.  Some kind of natural phenomenon we have yet to
            understand?    This is another reason for studying
            this more carefully.

21)     Hynek wanted to computerize the reports from all over
        the world.

22)     Hynek wanted "good" photographs of UFOs

23)     He concludes by saying he doesn't think the Pentagon
        thinks they are anything novel, and it still doesn't.
        (J.C. This was his view in December 1966)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
However, his opinion changed after that as will be seen in
several upcoming postings. Next, I'll present the complete text
of the above 1966 Saturday Evening Post article which will also
include links to events that occurred later on.

Respectfully,
Jerry Cohen

 Author: Oberg/Cooper rebuttals
Website: http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/
UFOmind: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/people/c/cohen/







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                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:07:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:22:04 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 13:13:06 -0500
>Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:53:16 -0500
>Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction

>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: How To Film An Abduction
>>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:42:39 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

Previously, Greg wrote:

>Mark made very detailed, very helpful suggestions about how to
>look for physical abduction evidence:

Mark's suggestions:

>>* Undertake a search of the area looking for ground traces or
>>traces on the treetops.

>>* Make sure the clothes they wore that night have not been
>>washed. If they have not, bag them and preserve them for
>>analysis. Also obtain a control sample of their normal clothing
>>which could not have been involved in an abduction. Look for
>>unusual substances, dust, stains, etc. You will want to work
>>with a scientist who knows clothing and fabrics for this.

><the rest snipped for brevity>

>Many thanks, Mark .Any serious abduction investigator will be
>grateful, and will look for ways to do what you suggest.

I agree. The methods presented in Mark's post are very well
thought out. The only fly in the ointment that I see is possibly
this:

Most (if not all) of the abductions that I've read about contain
references to the "visitors" speaking without moving their
mouths; i.e. telephathy. Wouldn't such telepathic capabilities
spoil the element of surprise so crucial to capturing the event
on film or video? Perhaps it would be best if the potential
abductee was kept in the dark about the specifics of any given
plan; perhaps, even, not being told that there IS a plan!

Just a thought...
(no pun intended)

Roger Evans





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                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:43:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:43:27 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction



List Members and Booby-Trappers;

When I originally posted this lo-tech. alien trap idea, the
intent was to explore ways to make a fool-proof,
get-some-hard-evidence tool that would take into account all the
abilities and effects reported by experiencers during their
encounters. The lo-tech was meant to avoid reliance on a video
camera or other electrical device because reportedly, they just
won't work.

Larry Hatch picked right up on this ( of course ) and actually
utilizes the EM effects to sound the alarm; inspiring. The only
problem is that once you have stuck them to the floor or have
been alerted to their presence, what's step two? Take a picture
and run like hell? This is why I was willing to be satisfied
with a short roll of fuzzy film recording the experience.

Having the trap set by a total outsider, completely unknown to
the experiencer, is the key (IMHO). If there is some kind of
telepathic link involved in the experience, cover would be blown
upon initial contact. How do you keep yourself from thinking "
oh goody, now I've got them "? Hypnosis, maybe. If you don't
know the trap is set or even know of the possibility of one, you
won't be spilling the beans, mentally or otherwise.

Obviously, such a plan would be nearly impossible to accomplish
within the law. Some pioneering individual would have to take a
chance and stake out the abductee of his or her choosing and
tell noone. Get in. Set the trap. Get out. Minimize your chances
of gunshot wounds by picking a Canadian subject, just in case
things go wrong. If you make it this far, you'll be halfway
there. You just have to get in and grab your film, strip-chart
or whatever at a later date and get out again. You won't have
any contact at all with the experiencer so you'll have to guess
at the right time to collect the evidence. A wind-up film camera
would be great for this because you could probably leave it
there for a year and not have to worry about batteries going
dead before the visitors arrive, another good reason to avoid
electronics.

Now, here comes the hard ($$$) part...

If you do come away with anything, don't send it to the local
photo-mat for processing (duh). Hide it. Sit on it until you can
make arrangements to be there for the developing and copying
with an authority on the subject matter. There are many good
choices on this list for such a person, Bruce Macabbee
immediately comes to my mind. Ray Santilli does not. A group of
experts would probably be a better idea as everyone would get to
see things first hand as it happens.

Make sure everyone directly involved in the process gets an
equal share of any gains that may be made ( hey, ten bucks is
ten bucks! :) ) on the sole condition that they keep quiet until
the time is right, whenever that happens to be. I'm sure the
abductee would have something to say on this but I'm also sure
that they would be so relieved to have something to support the
reality of what they are experiencing that they will commend
your efforts and you probably won't be doing any jail time. On
the other hand, if you come away with nothing on film, or worse,
an hour of sleepwalking, you may decide not to mention your
little B&E adventure and try again on someone else.

I'd like to try all this myself but my cover will be blown the
minute this message hits the list.

Darn.

R.G.

Postscript:

As far as I know, the lovely Jeri Ryan is not, does not claim to
be, an abductee or recipient of a close encounter. Cross
Potential Subject #1 from your list now gentlemen. Ladies, I
believe the same is true for Brad Pitt. Sorry.

If for some reason the device misfires and catches some action
other than the alien type, for pete's sake, destroy it, don't
post it on the internet, ok?  ;)







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   Dec > Dec 15

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:58:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:48:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


In reviewing the body of work I have put on the list over the
last couple of weeks, and then the body of work posted by my
critics, I see two things:

1) I have made several substantive points which have not been
addressed, at all, by those who purport to be criticising me.
Like Mark Twain's neighbors in Hannibal, they seem to think it's
sufficient to say, "It's just sin and I'm agin' it!"  This is
justification enough on their part not to engage in any effort,
above that of name calling or insults, which would demonstrate
to any neutral party on this list that I am in error.

2) I have to consider why this might be true:

        a) Failure to comprehend due to lack of time, etc.;
        b) Inability to understand due to, well, let's not go
           there.

I would summarize the major points of my various messages but
they are right there in the archive.

Once again, thanks again for participating.  I continue to await
the arrival of a significant response to my messages.

The following will focus on the role in ufology I have ascribed
to Sherman J. Larsen, former member of the Army
Counterintelligence Corps (CIC).  I only ask that you judge him
by his own public actions.

You must have rules when you do UFO research and one that I
invariably observe is this:  Whenever I see a former member of
the CIC comment on the record about UFOs then I am going to pay
attention.

Thus it was that at a UFO meeting some years ago, in the
aftermath of the Condon Committee report, Mr. Larsen, late of
the CIC gave a paper on UFOs.  He is worth quoting at some
length, belying the "Babbit-like" impression ascribed to him by
one well known UFO researcher.  In fact, Larsen has sage advice
applying to many, if not most, of the posters to this list,
bogged down as they are in the unimportant piling up of sighting
reports ad infinitum.  No distracting "watch the skies" for Mr.
Larsen!

In his presentation Mr. Larsen, who obviously knows what he is
talking about, speaks to one of the chief bugaboos of ufology:

        documentation.


But Mr. Larsen is NOT talking about documentation of UFO sightings,
oh, no.  He is talking about documentation from four sources:

        1) The Government, including the military;
        2) The scientific community;
        3) Industry; and
        4) What he calls "study groups", now known as
           'think-tanks'.

Mr. Larsen says that ufology must move the public where UFOs are
concerned and that the public will then move the government,
which is the source of real authority in our country.  I must
quote him directly: "We believe that sighting reports in any
quantity will never be enough to sway the public."  How true,
how true, and the last 50 years have proven it again and again.
But what do so many in ufology waste their time on even today,
hm?

The bulk of Mr. Larsen's presentation is most interesting,
concerned as it is with hard-to-get documents, procured by the
author from unnamed sources.  Most of these documents were not
officially classified -- officially.  But like many other such
documents they had been made very hard to obtain -- very hard.

It is certainly curious that Larsen's "close" friend a "noted"
researcher would not acknowledge this work performed by Mr.
Larsen of whom he claims to be so knowning.  Larsen himself
presented this information at a public presentation of a well
known UFO organization.  Yes, Mr. Larsen could obtain self
described "hard to get" documents from secret sources he could
not divulge.

As Larsen states,

        "Over the past five years we have developed a technique
        to secure credible sources who have provided us with
        documents that have previously been unknown, priced out
        of the market, or while not classified, were
        nevertheless, unavailable."

This "close" friend, poster on this list had maintained of Mr.
Larsen:

      Nobody who knew him would ever mistake him for
      anything other than what he was: a hard-working,
      unimaginative George F. Babbitt type of average
      intelligence and conventional views, an insurance agent by
      profession and a living personification of every stereotype
      associated with that calling.


I ask.

Does your insurance agent collect documents from sources he
cannot name, documents the government does not make available to
John Q. Public?

Well the facts belie the propaganda that Mr. Larsen's "friend"
has spread on this list and would like innocent list readers to
believe.

How interesting that Mr. Larsen had been able to get these
documents, and that he could not name his sources.  Now, let me
see, who was Larsen's good friend, from Chicago, that he would
combine with to found a UFO investigative organization?  Why, I
think that was Dr. J. Allen Hynek, wasn't it.  Hmm.  I wonder.

I think you folks are going to really enjoy my book, with
research backed up as it is by facts, not the propaganda others
have offered on these subjects.  This is just the tip of the
iceberg.  Thank you for your attention.

Gary





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   Dec > Dec 15

              Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

From: KRandle993@aol.com
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:13:37 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:00:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 00:57:54 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo


>>Subj: UFO UpDate: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo
>>Date: 12/12/98 6:10:23 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>From: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)

>>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 13:04:29 +0100
>>Subject: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

>>[List only]

>>Source: The Globe And Mail (Toronto).

>>URL:

>>http://www.theglobeandmail.com/docs/news/19981211/Compass/UCOMPPN.html

>>Stig


>>COMPASS

<snip>


>It is difficult to determine whether this writer has her tongue
>in cheek or was just clumsy and inept with her reportorial
>facts. In any event, this is how rumors -- which lead to
>erroneous folklore which plagues the Roswell Event! -- get
>started. So let me clarify the record insofar as I have personal
>knowledge.

Dr. Johnson should be considered the expert in starting rumors
about the Roswell case having started so many of his own.

>>IN FREDERICTON -- From the curb, the home looks deceptively
>>ordinary: a split-level building, with two aging Toyotas
parked >>in the driveway.

 <snip>

>>What currently brings together Mr. Friedman's southwestern
>>topic and his northeastern home is a photograph. Taken on July
>>8, 1947, at Fort Worth Army Air Force Base in Texas, it shows
>>Brigadier General Roger Ramey and Colonel Thomas Dubose
>>crouched near some pieces of thin, crumpled metallic material
>>arranged on the floor for a brief showing to the media.

>There is _nowhere_ in the Roswell record that there was _any_
>intention by General Ramey to show this detritus to the media.
>In fact, there is _no_ record that _any_ member of the media
>other than myself _ever_ was allowed to see the Roswell crash
>detrius, even to this day!

In fact, there is nothing in the record to suggest that Dr.
Johnson had the opportunity to see any of the Roswell crash
debris himself. The pictures he took show the remains of a
weather balloon and rawin target and all the analysis in the
world isn't going to change that.

>>A rancher had found them two days earlier,

>The Associated Press, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram (my
>newspaper), the Roswell Daily Record and other
>contemporaneous news accounts stated that a New Mexico
>rancher had found the wreckage three weeks previously.

Well, not exactly. I quote from the Roswell Daily Record of July
9, 1947 (Gen. Ramey Empties Roswell Saucer), "The weather
balloon was found several days ago near the center of New Mexico
by Rancher W.W. Brazel. He said he didn't think much about it
until he went into Corona, N.M. last Saturday and heard the
flying disk reports."

AP teletypes saved by Frank Joyce refer to the event as
happening last week. So the record on when the debris was found
is not quite as clear as Dr. Johnson would have us believe.

>>But it's in down-to-earth Fredericton that Mr. Friedman hopes
>>"some brainstorm will come" to ProLab owner Rob Belyea, who
>>has to manipulate the image and orchestrate conflicting
>>interpretations.

>The article fails to reveal who has ordained Mr. Belyea to such
>an important and awesome assignment as is reported. Wonder if
>anyone has warned him as to what a hazardous undertaking he has
>been tasked?

I hate to agree with Dr. Johnson, but as I read the article I
wondered the same thing. This guy is going to sit in Canada and
let us know what he thinks of the various interpretations.

>>Mr. Belyea, 46, takes his other-worldly assignment in stride. A
>>more usual job would be manipulating the image of a mountain for
>>generic advertising. Overlaying scans of the Roswell Incident
>>photo and deciphering its minuscule text certainly offer a
>>change.

>>Although Mr. Belyea can't spend hours reading the words himself,
>>he will "rule out or confirm" interpretations using software to
>>decide on character count and possible combinations. ("It'll
>>tell you your three options are 'schmuck,' 'luck,' or
>>'spaceship.' ")

>Surely the writer did not mean to say that Belyea's task will be
>so simple that he can effectively accomplish his awesome
>assignment without devoting many "hours" to it!

>>Why do this, and at such expense? Mr. Friedman has long
>>hypothesized a second crash site near Magdalena, N.M., complete
>>with alien bodies. His carefully detailed evidence was dealt a
>>blow when an alleged witness's credibility crumbled. Perhaps the
>>words in the photo will reveal an official reference to such a
>>site, he reasons.

>>Mr. Friedman is not taking part in the interpretation for fear
>>that he might overinterpret the text.

>>One man's UFO sleuthing is another's microhistory. Playing
>>referee, Mr. Belyea opined that others' discernment of
>>"Magdalena" in the text thus far is optimistic: "They're pulling
>>off all sorts of [readings], but they're making some of it up."

>Whoa! Mr. Belyea goes a bit too far by concluding that "they're
>making some of it up." I happen to know for a certainty that the
>first reading of "Magdalena, N. Mex." in the Ramey Message
>was accomplished by the journalist husband of one of the RPIT
>(Roswell Photo Interpretation Team) members, Photojournalist
>Debbie Stock and her journalist husband. Debbie writes: "My
>husband knows nothing about Roswell or UFOs and he knew
>absolutely nothing of Magdalena's connection with this story
>when he gave this reading."

Whoa, your self. Almost no one who has looked at this message
has come up with Magdalena. The letter count is wrong and there
is almost nothing that would suggest that Magdalena is the right
word. Others have suggested that the word is Roswell but it is
really little more than a smudge open to various
interpretations.

<snip>

>>Monique Dull is a freelance writer in Fredericton.

>With such creative reporting Monique is likely never to escape
>Metropolitan Fredericton.

The comment that strikes me here is that people who live in
glass houses...

KRandle





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   Dec > Dec 15

                             UFO Sighted At TUE

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:25:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:20:31 -0500
Subject: UFO Sighted At TUE


Forwarded from alt.ufo.reports. This one kinda reminds me of the
Mexico UFO vid.

Terry

    <><><><><><><><><>

From: jos <josvanr@xs4all.nl>
Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
Subject: UFO sighted at TUE
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:03:27 +0100

Recently, a ufo was sighted at the Technical University of
Eindhoven.

Photographic evidence can be found at the url

http://www.dse.nl/~josvanr

Please give your opinion on the genuineness of these pictures.







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                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:30:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:03:05 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction

>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:07:05 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: How To Film An Abduction
>I agree. The methods presented in Mark's post are very well
>thought out. The only fly in the ointment that I see is possibly
>this:

>Most (if not all) of the abductions that I've read about contain
>references to the "visitors" speaking without moving their
>mouths; i.e. telephathy. Wouldn't such telepathic capabilities
>spoil the element of surprise so crucial to capturing the event
>on film or video? Perhaps it would be best if the potential
>abductee was kept in the dark about the specifics of any given
>plan; perhaps, even, not being told that there IS a plan!

Thanks, Roger. Actually, all of my suggestions were post-event
measurements, which would mean that the abductee would not or
need not be aware that those steps would be taken. Indeed, they
could well be the first steps of an investigator after an
initial report.

The ability to detect trace materials in biological tissues are
particularly good nowadays, and, especially if an abductee shows
an allergic reaction of any sort after an encounter, may well be
at least the beginning of a pattern of hard evidence that could
provide information about the environment in which abductees
experience the event.

One less intrusive method may also be analysis of hair, which is
currently used for a variety of drug tests. I'm not sure exactly
what range of time or density of contaminants is needed to alter
the material made into growing hair, but it is possible that
alien environment traces could be found in hair follicles or
fibers, taken up from the bloodstream after being incorporated
by breathing in that environment or as a result of material on
instruments used in a procedure.

It sure beats this "implant surgery" activity, of which,
frankly, I am very skeptical.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------





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                         Re: STS-88 Anomalous Object

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:31:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:01:32 -0500
Subject: Re: STS-88 Anomalous Object


A friend of mine saw an anomalous object pass behind the shuttle:

"I saw a big dot moved slowly on real time NASA-TV picture while
2 astronauts performing last space walk at 2:40 GMT, if anybody
recorded the video, it can be seen clearly."

His description was similar to the object seen to pass the field
of view during the Hubble repair mission.  As list members might
recall, after this object passed by, NASA defocused the camera,
pointed it toward the cargo bay and ended the video
transmission.

Did anyone happen to record the last space walk of STS-88?

Terry






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                 Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:39:46 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:13:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request  For Help


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Abduction Evidence -- Request  For Help
>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 13:07:52 -0500

>So here's my request. Can anyone here suggest someone? If so,
>please e-mail John or me privately. This is potentially a very
>important inquiry, and John and I would be grateful for any
>help.

>One last thought. Ideally, we'd take fresh x-rays, so a doctor
>looking at the film would know for sure where the x-rays had
>come from. If anyone is in a position to help us do this, I'll
>be especially happy.

Derrell Simms? <g>


Roger R. Prokic
Telecom Design Lead
Mars Surveyor Program
Lockheed Martin Astronautics
Denver, Colorado USA
-=[sent from a Palm III & HandMail v2.0.1 ]=-





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   Dec > Dec 16

                      UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 50

From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:25:08 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:17:36 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 50



UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 3, Number 50
December 15, 1998
Editor: Joseph Trainor

LODGE CAMERA RECORDS
DAYLIGHT DISC FLYBY IN
PACIFIC NORTHWEST

     On Thursday, November 12, 1998, at approximately
3:43 p.m., the security videocamera at Sun Mountain
resort in the Methow Valley near Winthrop, Washington
state captured the image of a luminous daylight disc as
it flew towards the mountains of the Lake Chelan/
Sawtooth wilderness areas.
     Sun Mountain is located about 130 miles
(208 kilometers) northeast of Seattle.
     The photo shows the corner of the resort's
balcony and the UFO some distance away, flying in
front of a rampart of clouds, about 20 degrees above
the mountains on the horizon.  The UFO looks like
a white self-luminous oval.
     No witnesses were reported present when the
security videocam captured the image.
     The photo can be viewed at the Methow Valley
website, located at http://balsam.methow.com/

(Note: The photo is available on the UFO Roundup/UFOINFO site at:
http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/v03/rnd03_50.html)

GLOWING FIREBALL SEEN BY
HUNDREDS IN GEORGIA

     On Sunday, December 6, 1998, shortly after 11 p.m.,
a very bright "glowing fireball" streaked through the night
skies of Georgia and was seen by hundreds of people.
     FOX-TV in Atlanta interrupted its 11 p.m. broadcast
of The X-Files to present a special report on the
"glowing fireball."
     One woman described the fireball as "like a meteor
only 100 times brighter than anything I have ever seen."
     The UFO traveled across the sky from east to west
and was seen between Jonesboro (population 3,635),
a small city on Highway 54 approximately 11 miles
(17 kilometers) south of Atlanta, and Rome, Ga.
(population 30,326), located 66 miles (105 kilometers)
northwest of Atlanta.
     One man, J.P. Akin, witnessed the event in his
hometown of Griffin, Ga. (population 21,347), a town on
Highway 19 about 50 miles (80 kilometers) south of
Atlanta.  Akin reported, "Something very bright flew
across the northern horizon, toward Atlanta.  I didn't
see it personally, but I did see the residual light from
my bedroom window.  It appeared orange and red and
lasted about one minute or a little less and died out.
It did spook the neighborhood animals, though.  Many
dogs up and down the road were barking at this time."
     The mass fireball sighting followed closely on the
heels of two other UFO events in Georgia.
     On Saturday, December 5, 1998, "the night
supervisor of a local health care facility" in Kennesaw
"said that about 1 a.m. several employees had observed
unusual lights in the clouds overhead.  She went out to
look and observed four to six bright white lights
circling in the thick cloud cover overhead...The lights
were white, round, about the size of a basketball at
arm's length.  They were moving fast and would come
together, separate and continue to circle.  She stated
that all the TVs in the facility went out during this time."
     The previous day, Friday, December 4, 1998, MUFON
investigators William Lester and David Brown traveled to
Douglasville (population 11,635) and the nearby town of
Hiram (population 1,389) to interview UFO witnesses.
     While Lester and Brown were there, they observed
three UFOs themselves.  The first, they reported, "was a
cone-shaped object, blue on top and yellowish on the
bottom, moving quickly out of our telescope's field of
view within five seconds."  The second was "a round
object with a blue coloration and a black core."  And
the third was "a glowing red object traversing the sky
from horizon to horizon."
     Douglasville and Hiram are on Highway 92, located
about 22 miles (35 kilometers) west of Atlanta.  Lester
and Brown will be returning there this week with
videocameras to continue their investigation.  (See
Filer's Files #49 for 1998.  Many thanks to George A.
Filer of MUFON for their stories.  And thanks to Errol
Bruce-Knapp and J.P. Akin for the "fireball" story.)

MANY UFO SIGHTINGS WERE
REPORTED IN PENNSYLVANIA

     For the past month, UFOs have appeared over
many cities and towns in Pennsylvania.
     On Wednesday, November 11, 1998, at 9:30 p.m.,
a witness observed "a white fireball" crossing the sky
from east to west near Greensburg (population 16,318)
and Jeannette (population 11,221), two suburbs about
12 miles (18 kilometers) east of Pittsburgh.  "Debris
and white sparks were falling from it as the object
passed through the sky."
     On Monday, November 16, 1998, in Penn Hills,
another Pittsburgh suburb, "a motorist observed four
UFOs over a 10-to-15-minute period.  The objects
were reportedly square-shaped, were at a low altitude
and displayed red flashing lights and three white lights.
One object reportedly moved closer to the witness
before moving off.  No sound could be heard from any
of the objects."
     On Sunday, November 22, 1998, witnesses in
Allentown, Pa. (population 105,090), a large city on
Interstate Highway I-78 approximately 66 miles
(105 kilometers) north of Philadelphia, "reported
sighting five silver disc-shaped objects moving at a
high rate of speed from west to east.  Their observation
lasted 25 seconds."
     On Tuesday, November 24, 1998, at about 3 p.m.,
a motorist in Wilmerding, Pa. (population 2,222), a
town on Highway 130 just east of Pittsburgh, noticed
two contrails in the blue sky as he drove along.  The
contrails formed "a perfect X."  Pulling over to the side
of the road, he left his car "and noticed a silver-gray
object (like the fuselage of a helicopter) that rose
straight up from the contrails and quickly speeded
through the sky above them.  It then shot straight
down into the contrails and then it was gone from
sight.  The object displayed no contrail."  (Many thanks
to Pennsylvania ufologist Stan Gordon for these
reports.)

TWO UFOs SEEN OVER
KIRKCALDY, SCOTLAND

     On Friday, December 4, 1998, at 2:50 p.m.,
insurance agent Andrew Caterer was at his office on
Queen Street, just around the corner from St. Andrew's
Square in Edinburgh, Scotland's capital, when he
spotted something unusual outdoors.
     "I have a view from my attic-type window across
the Firth of Forth (northward) over to Fife," he reported.
"This afternoon I was talking to a colleague, and I was
looking out across the Firth.  The view was clear, and
the sky was still light.  I observed two lights roughly the
same colour as a streetlight, but their distances were
difficult to judge.  However, they appeared to be over
Fife," and he estimated them to be "a few miles west
of Kirkcaldy," a city on the Firth's north shore about
20 miles (32 kilometers) north of Edinburgh.
     "It was as if the sun, which was high in the sky,
was reflecting off metal.  The lights when I first saw
them appeared to be close together.  As I watched
them, they both moved fairly quickly--slow enough
to follow their progress yet quick enough not to be
conventional aircraft.  I watched them for about a
minute.  Two of my colleagues also observed them.
Their movement was wholly erratic.  I could estimate
the lights to be the size of a pearl, if it was held out
at the end of my arm's length."  (Many thanks to
Dave Ledger of UFO Scotland for this news story.)

THREE UFOs SIGHTED IN
EASTERN AUSTRALIA

     On Friday, December 11, 1998, at 7:55 p.m.,
E. Marshall was lying on Maroochydore Beach,
Queensland, Australia, skywatching, when he
spotted some UFOs.
     Marshall "saw three lights half the size of his
little fingernail, creamy white in colour."  He
reported, "I was lying down on the beach, listening
to (Christmas) carols next to my wife,  (Seasons
are reversed in the southern hemisphere, so it's
summer right now in Australia--J.T.)  looking up at
the sky.  It was a very clear night.  I could see all
the stars.  Then, all of a sudden, I saw three objects
move quickly into my view, all at once.  I thought at
first it might be a plane.  Then it moved in the
opposite direction so fast, I thought, Wow!  That's
no plane!  I shouted at my wife to look.  We watched
two of the objects do manoeuvres for 40 seconds."
     The first UFO, he added, "was doing what looked
like a question mark movement, then disappeared."
The second "did a zigzag and went southeast," while
the third "disappeared for a second, then reappeared
and went in a westerly direction."  (Many thanks to
Diane Harrison and Robert Frola of UFO Investigation
Centre--Queensland for this report.)

WEIRD ANIMAL SURPRISES
PAIR IN WISCONSIN

     On Saturday, December 12, 1998, at 4:45 p.m.,
teenagers Michael M. and Jerance F. were walking
along the Wisconsin Central Railroad tracks in
the west end of Manitowoc, Wis. (population 32,520)
when Mike heard an unearthly scream.
     "It was just past dark," Mike reported, "It was
near the railroad, over the rails...Then I heard the
most horrifying sound in the world.  It was a deep
roar, screeching deep, and it was a growl."
     As they turned, they saw "a large creature
rising behind us, maybe 45 yards to the south.
Then it moved toward us, and we ran fast, faster
than we ever have in our lives."
     Mike's mother, Debbie, corroborated her son's
report but added that the creature may not have been
a Bigfoot.  "But for the most part he did see some
kind of white, dirty furred animal that made the most
bizarre noise he had ever heard.  His friend also saw
this animal.  At first they thought a train was coming
and that the sound was from that.  But then they
looked and they did not see a train.  They heard its
weird sound and that's when they saw what they did."
     Manitowoc is a port city on Lake Michigan
approximately 84 miles (134 kilometers) north of
Milwaukee.  (Email Interview)
(Editor's Note: Manitowoc is reputed to be another
"corner" of the Lake Michigan Triangle.  Among the
mysterious events here were the disappearance
of airliner Northwest 2501 in June 1950 and the
disappearance of the steamship Alpena in 1880.
Like its sister city across the lake--Ludington,
Michigan--Manitowoc is no stranger to unusual
phenomena.)

UNITED NATIONS CALLS
EMERGENCY Y2K MEETING

     On Thursday, December 10, 1998, "representatives
from at least 80 nations, and possibly as many as 120,"
arrived at United Nations headquarters in New York City
"to confront the so-called Y2K problem."
     "The Gartner Group, leaders in Y2K analysis
worldwide, reports that no more than two dozen
nations are actively working on the problem."
     "'The consequences of unpreparedness in any one
country can rapidly spill over to other parts of the
world,' says Pakistani Ambassador Ahmad Kamal,
the conference organizer."
     "If the computers of one nation's banking system
fail, for example, they could cut off transactions with
gold partners and rupture the worldwide electronic
flow of cash."
     "'The goal is to work together to identify and
address issues that go across borders,' says John
Koskinen, who chairs the U.S. government's effort
to prepare for Y2K."
     UN "organizers require that every nation taking
part (in the conference) must name an official who
will attend the session and serve as that government's
Y2K leader."  (See USA Today for December 10, 1998,
"U.N. confronts global shortfalls on Y2K" by M.J.
Zuckerman, page 1.)
     On Friday, December 11, 1998, the conference
delegates "encouraged Mr. Kamal and the other
organizers to coordinate the sharing of information
and contingency plans."
     "Ronald Ball, a British Telecom official representing
the International Telecommunications Union (ITU, a
United Nations agency, bluntly named countries that
had failed to respond to requests for information about
how their telephone operations are being updated.
Some present said Mr. Ball cited not only developing
countries but also wealthy nations like Italy and,
despite Mr. Kamal's prominent role, Pakistan."
     John Koskinen, chairman of the (USA's) President's
Council on the Year 2000 Conversion, told the delegates,
"We have two years' worth of work to do in a year's
time."
     "Acknowledging that with just over a year until the
brunt of the problems hit, some failures are inevitable,
the group spent much of the day discussing how
nations can develop contingency plans."
     "One suggestion was to set up 'SWAT Teams'
that could move swiftly into the hardest hit areas
with technical assistance."  (See the New York Times
for December 12, 1998, "Nations urged to prepare
for 'Millenium Bug'" by Barnaby J. Feder.)
(Editor's Comment: SWAT Teams, eh?  Forget NATO.
It looks as if the UN itself is taking control of
Operation Abacus, the military response to Y2K
rioting already adopted by Canada, the UK and Israel.)

ENDEAVOUR CREW FINISHES
WORK ON SPACE STATION

     Spacewalking astronauts Jerry Ross and Jim
Newman successfully completed all three of their
planned extravehicular activites (EVAs) last week.
     On Monday, December 7, 1998, at 5:10 p.m.,
the two Endeavour astronauts "breezed through a
series of tricky electrical patches" and "installed
40 electrical and data connectors by 9:25 p.m."
     "The connectors installed Monday linked the
U.S.-built connecting tunnel Unity and the Russian-
built power module Zarya."
     "The crew got so far ahead of schedule that
they did some of the work set for Wednesday's
spacewalk, bolting handrails to the side of
Unity for future spacewalkers to use."
     "Russian ground controllers outside Moscow,
meanwhile, sent commands at 10:28 p.m. to
power up Zarya, which in turn jump-started
Unity's electrical systems."  (See USA Today for
December 8, 1998, "Spacewalkers complete a
tricky wiring job,' page 2A.)
     On Tuesday, December 8, 1998, Endeavour
commander Robert Cabana "fired the shuttle
thrusters to climb to an altitude of 248 miles,"
about six miles (10 kilometers) higher than before.
     "The seven-story, 35-ton station swung back
and forth a half-foot (6 inches) or more in
Endeavour's cargo bay, its solar wings flapping,
as the shuttle moved higher and higher."
     "The astronauts kept close watch on the
stack during the 20-minute ride, carefully spacing
out their thruster pulses to reduce the stress."
(See the Boston, Mass. Herald for December 9,
1998, "Astronauts send station to higher orbit.")
     On Wednesday night, December 9, 1998,
Ross and Newman embarked on their second
EVA.  "Newman rode the shuttle's 50-foot-long
robotic arm while Ross floated around the station
holding into handrails during their seven-hour
spacewalk 248 miles above Earth."
     "The main task Wednesday was installing the
antennas, a job they completed in 3 1/2 hours.
The antennas are used for voice, data and low-
fidelity TV transmissions."
     "Ross and Newsman attached the antennas
to opposite sides of Unity and strung a 35-foot-long
cable to wire them to electrical power from the
Russian-build module Zarya."
     "Newman also managed to get an antenna
unfurled on one side of Zarya that had been
stuck since its launch last month."  (See
USA Today for December 10, 1998, "Astronauts
board station today," page 3A.)
     Thursday, December 10, 1998, was opening
day for the new space station.  "Endeavour
space shuttle commander Bob Cabana and
Russian cosmonaut Sergei Krikalev left the
shuttle crew cabin Thursday, floated through
the tunnel that that docks it to other space
objects and stopped at the first hatch at the
base of Unity...They tugged together on the
hatch and opened a new era of space
cooperation.  They then floated up through
the U.S.-built Unity docking tunnel toward
Zarya...The rest of the crew soon followed as
Cabana and Krikalev pulled open hatch after
hatch--six in all--to lead their crewmates
along the length of the 76-foot station."
    "'This is an absolutely super place,' Cabana
said...'It's unbelievable to be part of such a
great program, to have all the countries working
together in space to everybody's betterment...
It's really nice to be in a new home.'"
     "Krikalev had another observation: 'It's small;
we need more modules.'"  (See USA Today for
December 11, 1998, "Shuttle astronauts
somersault into new dream home in space,"
page 3A.)
     On Friday, December 11, 1998, the
Endeavour crew "after only a day on board...
turned off the lights and closed the doors of
the new international space station for its
release this weekend from the shuttle."
     "'We sure wish we had another day,'
Cmdr. Robert Cabana radioed down.  'It's a
shame we've got to close up shop so soon.'"
     The astronauts "began backing out
compartment by compartment, pulling out
the air ducts, turning off the lights and
closing the hatches behind them."
     "Among the items left behind for the
first permanent residents due to arrive in
little over a year were wrenches, screwdrivers,
drills, a videoconferencing system and clothes.
There was also a surprise or two but the
astronauts wouldn't say what."
     "'Something that lets them know we were
thinking of them,' Cabana hinted."  (See the
Providence, R.I. Journal for December 12,
1998, "Space station sealed up as shuttle
crew bids adieu.")
     Saturday, December 12, 1998, saw the third
and final spacewalk for Newman and Ross..
     "On their third spacewalk, astronauts Jerry
Ross and James Newman were aiming to attach
a sack of tools to the American-made Unity
chamber on the seven-story structure for use on
subsequent assembly flights."
     "They also planned to use a 10-foot pole to
try to deploy another stuck antenna on the
Russian Zarya control module...The 6 1/2 hour
outing concludes with a photo survey of the
35-ton space station."  (See the New York Daily
News for December 13, 1998, "Spacewalking
astros on fixup duty.")
     On Sunday, December 13, 1998, shuttle
"Pilot Rick Sturckow fired Endeavour's
steering rockets at 3:24 p.m. to move the
shuttle away from" the newly-undocked station.
     "Then he flew a slow circle and a half around
the station from 440 feet out so that his
crewmates could photograph it shimmering in
the blackness of space."
     "'This has truly been an awesome
experience,' Endeavour commander Bob
Cabana radioed Mission Control just before the
undocking.  'It's going to be one heck of a
space station when we get it done.'"
     Ross and Newman "spent 21 hours on the
three spacewalks during this mission.  That
gives Ross the U.S. spacewalk record for a
shuttle astronaut.  Ross, 50, has logged more
than 44 (EVA) hours on seven spacewalks."
(See USA Today for December 14, 1998,
"Shuttle finishes linkup with space station,"
page 3A.)

MARS CLIMATE ORBITER
HEADS FOR DEEP SPACE

     On Friday, December 11, 1998, "NASA
launched a new space probe...on a journey to
explore Mars, the first of two crafts set to leave
only weeks apart on expeditions to the Red
Planet."
     "The 1,400-pound Mars Climate Orbiter
lifted off from Cape Canaveral, Florida atop a
Delta II rocket at 1:46 p.m., after a one-day
delay during which engineers fixed a software
problem."
     "A camera mounted on the first stage of
the Delta II booster enabled observers to
experience a 'virtual' rocket ride, with a view
looking down through the nozzles belching
flames and smoke to the rapidly receding
Earth below."
     "The first stage and the camera fell away,
as planned, as the Delta soared about 90 miles
high at a velocity of more than 9,000 miles
per hour."
     "Flight controllers soon reported the
Orbiter properly dispatched on its 416
million mile, 9 month journey to Mars."
     "A sister craft, the Mars Polar Lander,
is scheduled for launch January 3 (1999)
bound for first landing ever in one of Mars's
intriguing polar regions in December 1999."
(See the Washington Post for December 12,
1998, "NASA launches first of two probes
to Mars.)

from the UFO Files...

1909: ANOTHER TROLLEY
          BUZZED BY A UFO

     Continuing our look back at the "airship"
flap in New England in December 1909, UFO Roundup
presents another strange sighting of that era.
     Last week we described the UFO seen by
Motorman Gary Lane and his passengers on
the trolley traveling from Marlboro to Hudson,
Massachusetts.
     But that wasn't the only UFO/trolley encounter
of the flap.  Read on:
     "Last night (i.e. December 23, 1909--J.T.) both
of the Milford & Upton (Street Railway) crews running
(trolley) cars on the Grafton division, Motormen Casey
and Richards and Conductors Hoey and Droney saw
it near Grafton (Mass.) and even nearer to Milford
(Mass.)"
     "Harry R. Rogers, foreman of construction to the
Milford & Upton, saw it while a passenger on
Conductor Droney's car.  The machine was said
by some to have circle about in the air over
Grafton about 7 o'clock and then to have been
steered along the (trolley) car line south toward
Hopedale, skirting along south of that town and
then to have darted away (northeast) in the
direction of South Framingham, its searchlight
plainly visible."
     "Conductor Droney said he saw the light but
could distinguish little else, so great was the
height at which the flying machine was being
operated.  That it was piercing the air at a rapid
rate he judged from the fact that his attention
was called to it when at the front of his car,
the light being then far off, but before he could
run to the rear platform, it appeared to be miles
in front of the speeding electric."  (See the
Milford, Mass. Daily Journal for December 24,
1909, page 1.  See also Fortean Studies,
Volume 1, "The New England Airship Invasion
of 1909" by Joseph Trainor, page 66.)

FUN UFO WEBSITES:
     Check out the UFO material at Dare To
Believe website.  You'll find it at this URL:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone9187
     Pieces of an Enigma can be accessed at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/
7247/
     Don't miss the holiday features and stories
available at our parent site, UFO INFO.  Drop
in anytime at http://ufoinfo.com
     Back issues of UFO Roundup can be read
and downloaded at our page.  Come on in and
browse.  We're at http://ufoinfo.com/roundup

     Twenty-six years ago, on December 12, 1972,
Apollo 17 astronauts Eugene A. Cernan and
Harrison W. Schmitt made geological history.
While exploring the surface of the moon, Schmitt
and Cernan discovered a deposit of strange
orange soil in the shadow of a large lunar boulder.
The unusual orange-colored regolith was the
first soil of its kind ever found.

     That's it for this week.  We'll be back next time
with more saucer news from around the planet,
brought to you by "the paper that goes home--
UFO Roundup."  See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1998 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
news items from UFO Roundup on their websites
or in newsgroups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the
date of issue in which the item first appeared.





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   Dec > Dec 16

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 17:51:41 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:05:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology



>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:58:46 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

Howdy, patient listfolk,

>In reviewing the body of work I have put on the list over the
>last couple of weeks, and then the body of work posted by my
>critics, I see two things:

>I have made several substantive points which have not been
>addressed, at all, by those who purport to be criticising me.
>Like Mark Twain's neighbors in Hannibal, they seem to think it's
>sufficient to say, "It's just sin and I'm agin' it!"  This is
>justification enough on their part not to engage in any effort,
>above that of name calling or insults, which would demonstrate
>to any neutral party on this list that I am in error.

Gary is, it is ever more apparent, determined to believe at any
cost.  Which explains, of course, his imperviousness to
arguments based merely on evidence, experience, knowledge, and
logic.

When I entered this discussion, I labored under the naive
delusion that Gary was actually interested in learning
something, even if it happened to contradict some bold, albeit
uninformed, statements he was making. It is clear to me now, of
course, that Gary was and is not interested in learning
something he does not want to know.

That being the case, I have no choice but to view with immense
skepticism any future claim he makes about something I know less
about than I know about Hynek and Larsen.  I urge the rest of
you to exercise comparable caution, and I here abandon all
efforts to liberate Gary from the ignorance, complacency, and
paranoia that afford him such happiness.  What follows is for
the benefit of the rest of you.

>Thus it was that at a UFO meeting some years ago, in the
>aftermath of the Condon Committee report, Mr. Larsen, late of
>the CIC gave a paper on UFOs.  He is worth quoting at some
>length, belying the "Babbit-like" impression ascribed to him by
>one well known UFO researcher.  In fact, Larsen has sage advice
>applying to many, if not most, of the posters to this list,
>bogged down as they are in the unimportant piling up of sighting
>reports ad infinitum.  No distracting "watch the skies" for Mr.
>Larsen!

Sherm, the rest of you will want to know, was a natural shuffler
of paper.  He was fond of documents and of filing them (one
reason he was such a successful insurance agent, I might add),
and a good thing, too.  He kept neat files (more than Hynek ever
did, which was not at all), and when he handed over the NICAP
archives to CUFOS (he'd kept them in his garage, CUFOS then
having no better place to put th em), they were in terrific
shape. Sherm understood something that has escaped many
(including me at times): that a significant proportion of good
ufology is the proper storing of information.

>But Mr. Larsen is NOT talking about documentation of UFO sightings,
>oh, no.  He is talking about documentation from four sources:

>        1) The Government, including the military;
>        2) The scientific community;
>        3) Industry; and
>        4) What he calls "study groups", now known as
>           'think-tanks'.

>Mr. Larsen says that ufology must move the public where UFOs are
>concerned and that the public will then move the government,
>which is the source of real authority in our country.  I must
>quote him directly: "We believe that sighting reports in any
>quantity will never be enough to sway the public."  How true,
>how true, and the last 50 years have proven it again and again.
>But what do so many in ufology waste their time on even today,
>hm?

It is, of course, a defensible argument, though hardly beyond
dispute.  In fact, it seems to me,  "sighting reports" _have_
swayed the public, which poll after poll attests is mostly
sympathetic to the idea of UFO reality.  What has not been
swayed is elite opinion -- scientific, journalistic, and other
-- which would make acceptance of UFOs actually mean something
(e.g., significantly funded research).  Short of a landing on
Times Square, that probably won't change in ur lifetimes.  What
would immediately change opinion, of course, would be an
official pronouncement, with relevant supporting documents,
attesting to the authenticity of the UFO phenomenon and/or its
extraordinary origins.  If Sherm had substituted "elite opinion"
for "the public," he would have had a better argument, I think.
Possibly, that's the argument he thought he was making.

>The bulk of Mr. Larsen's presentation is most interesting,
>concerned as it is with hard-to-get documents, procured by the
>author from unnamed sources.  Most of these documents were not
>officially classified -- officially.  But like many other such
>documents they had been made very hard to obtain -- very hard.

Sherm's "unnamed source" was Allen, and those documents are
available now in the CUFOS archives to any serious researcher
who wants to examine them at the office in Chicago.  While doing
my research for the UFO Encyclopedia series, I went through many
of them.  To my intense disappointment, alas, the fabled
Estimate of the Situation is not among them.  All sorts of
interesting Blue Book and other documents are, however.

>It is certainly curious that Larsen's "close" friend a "noted"
>researcher would not acknowledge this work performed by Mr.
>Larsen of whom he claims to be so knowning.  Larsen himself
>presented this information at a public presentation of a well
>known UFO organization.  Yes, Mr. Larsen could obtain self
>described "hard to get" documents from secret sources he could
>not divulge.

Allen was uneasy about possible retribution from the Air Force,
since his acquisition of certain documents was not, shall we
say, authorized.  This is a nice way of saying that not
everything he pocketed was a copy of something.

>This "close" friend, poster on this list had maintained of Mr.
>Larsen:

>      Nobody who knew him would ever mistake him for
>      anything other than what he was: a hard-working,
>      unimaginative George F. Babbitt type of average
>      intelligence and conventional views, an insurance agent by
>      profession and a living personification of every stereotype
>      associated with that calling.

Well said, if I do say so myself.  I didn't say, however, that
he was stupid.  The above description of Sherm, by the way,
would be recognized by anybody who knew the man, as Gary -- as
we all know all too well -- didn't.  Gary's clueless about the
real nature of Sherm Larsen becomes ever more profound.


>I ask.

>Does your insurance agent collect documents from sources he
>cannot name, documents the government does not make available to
>John Q. Public?

Yup, if he's interested in UFOs, is an associate of Hynek, and
is a document buff.  Sherm was all of the above.


>How interesting that Mr. Larsen had been able to get these
>documents, and that he could not name his sources.  Now, let me
>see, who was Larsen's good friend, from Chicago, that he would
>combine with to found a UFO investigative organization?  Why, I
>think that was Dr. J. Allen Hynek, wasn't it.  Hmm.  I wonder.

With deductive powers like that, I'll bet Gary has been able to
figure out at which horizon the sun will rise tomorrow.

>I think you folks are going to really enjoy my book, with
>research backed up as it is by facts, not the propaganda others
>have offered on these subjects.  This is just the tip of the
>iceberg.  Thank you for your attention.

Oh?  You mean we've seen the tip?  Hate to say this, guy, but it
has yet to come into view.  The way I see it, no tip, no
iceberg.

Jerry Clark






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   Dec > Dec 16

                          Re: Abduction of Blacks?

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:48:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:07:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks?


>>From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis@ccsi.com>
>>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:54:21 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 18:39:57 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks? [The Finalists]

>Well we are still waiting for data from all our MUFON, FUFOR,
>CUFOS, BUFORA colleagues on this issue. It should be simple
>enough to get a figure as to what percentage of close encounter
>and abduction reports come from each ethnic group.

>Mr. Hopkins, you've got to have some data on this.

I reported Budd's data a week or so ago.

Very, very few of the abductees he's worked with are black --
some 10, he estimated, out of more than 200.

The Roper poll showed no difference in the response of whites
and blacks. The same percentage of each said they'd had the
experiences that are considered -- controversially -- to be
indicators of abductions.

Greg Sandow





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                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:36:32 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:09:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:58:46 -0500
>Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:48:28 -0500
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

Previously, Gary declared:

>In reviewing the body of work I have put on the list over the
>last couple of weeks, and then the body of work posted by my
>critics, I see two things:
>
>1) I have made several substantive points which have not been
>addressed, at all, by those who purport to be criticising me.
>Like Mark Twain's neighbors in Hannibal, they seem to think it's
>sufficient to say, "It's just sin and I'm agin' it!"  This is
>justification enough on their part not to engage in any effort,
>above that of name calling or insults, which would demonstrate
>to any neutral party on this list that I am in error.

Sorry, dude. This is all nonsense.

If asking pertinent questions like "Where's your proof?"
qualifies as critisizing you, then I'm guilty as charged. But,
the fact is that I never called you a name and, having declared
my nuetrality on the subject of Hynek and Larsen and their "true
agenda", I eagerly awaited the proof of your accusations. After
several posts, calling for such proof, you offered nothing other
than more conjecture. For all I know, what you claim about Hynek
and Larsen may be true. But don't kid yourself into believing
that assumptions, no matter how logical they are to you, qualify
as proof to others.

>2) I have to consider why this might be true:
>
>        a) Failure to comprehend due to lack of time, etc.;
>        b) Inability to understand due to, well, let's not go
>           there.

On the contrary; let's go there quickly.

Since you started this thread to push your concepts to the
larger group, it is YOUR responsibility to provide proof if you
want us to believe in those concepts. It is not OUR
responsibility to provide proof counter to your findings. If we
fail to understand, it is because you have failed to provide the
proof that would allow us to understand. Otherwise, anyone with
an unproven concept can claim "proof" based on the notion that
they, alone, believe in those concepts.

>I would summarize the major points of my various messages but
>they are right there in the archive.

>Once again, thanks again for participating.  I continue to await
>the arrival of a significant response to my messages.

For crying out loud, Gary. I think the following response, which
I've posted several times already, is pretty darned significant.
But for the sake of closure, I'll repeat it again and give you
one last time to respond:

You claim that Hynek and Larsen never told anyone, not even
their closest friends, what the "true nature" was regarding
their work. Therefore, how can you possibly know anything for
certain regarding their personal or professional lives without
flat out guessing?

Not only is this question significant to your position, it's
down right reasonable in nature.

>I think you folks are going to really enjoy my book, with
>research backed up as it is by facts, not the propaganda others
>have offered on these subjects.  This is just the tip of the
>iceberg.  Thank you for your attention.

I'm totaly mystified. If you have the facts at your fingertips,
then why hold out? Of course, unlike the members of this list,
the buyers of your book don't get to ask you hard questions
like:

"Where's your proof?"

Significantly yours,
Roger Evans





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                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 19:49:18 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:12:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:58:46 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>In his presentation Mr. [Sherman J.] Larsen, who obviously
>knows what he is talking about, speaks to one of the chief
>bugaboos of ufology:

>       documentation.


>Mr. Larsen says that ufology must move the public where UFOs are
>concerned and that the public will then move the government,
>which is the source of real authority in our country.  I must
>quote him directly: "We believe that sighting reports in any
>quantity will never be enough to sway the public."  How true,
>how true, and the last 50 years have proven it again and again.
>But what do so many in ufology waste their time on even today,
>hm?

In a response to this written earlier this evening, I failed to
state a point that needs to be made here:

Sherm Larsen was a longtime regional NICAP officer.  He shared
NICAP and its director Donald Keyhoe's belief that ufologists
need to lobby government bodies and agencies. Like them, he
thought  that this was the way the truth about UFOs would
emerge.  That NICAPian conviction is what Larsen is repeating in
these remarks.  Old NICAP members on the list will recognize the
sentiments.  Gary is probably too young to remember the
influence NICAP and Keyhoe had on Larsen's generation of
ufologists, which may account for his apparent perception that
Larsen's ideas are somehow unique to him and therefore
suggestive of something or other.

Jerry Clark







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                           Re: UFO Sighted At TUE

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:13:51 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:13:49 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Sighted At TUE


>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:25:46 -0500
>Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:20:31 -0500
>Subject: UFO Sighted At TUE

>Forwarded from alt.ufo.reports. This one kinda reminds me of the
>Mexico UFO vid.

>Photographic evidence can be found at the url

>http://www.dse.nl/~josvanr

>Please give your opinion on the genuineness of these pictures.

Actually, the enlargement looks exactly like a helicoptor to me,
give or take a few pixels....

Later,
Roger Evans





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                Hynek 12/17/66 Sat. Eve. Post article - Pt. 1

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:06:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:16:52 -0500
Subject: Hynek 12/17/66 Sat. Eve. Post article - Pt. 1

            "Spock put his hands to McCoy's head
             and whispered .........'Remember!' "

   This is the 12/17/66 Saturday Evening Post article that fully
ignited the controversy that still exists today. In it, Dr.
Hynek speaks about his years examining the UFO phenomenon and
insight into why he finally decided to publish this letter.

   A URL for a brief summation of the article will appear at the
end of this two-part post as well as some links to quotes from
Hynek's "The UFO Experience," in which he explains the reasons &
depth of his disagreement with the Air Force.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Begin Sat. Eve. Post article - Pt. 1:

ARE FLYING SAUCERS REAL?   By J. Allen Hynek

For years the Air Force has dismissed them as hoaxes,
hallucinations or misidentifications. Now the Air Force's own
scientific consultant on unidentified flying objects declares
that many of the sightings cannot be so easily explained.

On August 25, 1966, an Air Force officer in charge of a missile
crew in North Dakota suddenly found that his radio transmissions
was being interrupted by static. At the time, he was sheltered
in a concrete capsule 60 feet below the ground. While he was
trying to clear up the problem, other Air Force personnel on the
surface reported seeing a UFO--an unidentified flying object
high in the sky. It had a bright red light, and it appeared to
be alternately climbing and descending. Simultaneously, a radar
crew on the ground picked up the UFO at 100,000 feet.

So begins a truly puzzling UFO report--one that is not
explainable as it now stands by such familiar causes as a
balloon, aircraft, satellite or meteor.  "When the UFO climbed,
the static stopped," stated the report made by the base's
director of operations. "The UFO began to swoop and dive. It
then appeared to land ten to fifteen miles south of the area.
Missile-site control sent a strike team (well-armed Air Force
guards) to check. When the team was about ten miles from the
landing site, static disrupted radio contact with them. Five to
eight minutes later the glow diminished, and the UFO took off.
Another UFO was visually sighted and confirmed by radar. The one
that was first sighted passed beneath the second. Radar also
confirmed this. The first made for altitude toward the north,
and the second seemed to disappear with the glow of red."

This incident, which was not picked up by the press, is typical
of the puzzling cases that I have studied during the 18 years
that I have served as the Air Force's scientific consultant on
the problem of UFO's. What makes the report especially arresting
is the fact that another incident occurred near the base a few
days earlier. A police officer--a reliable man---saw in broad
daylight what he called "an object on its edge floating down the
side of a hill, wobbling from side to side about ten feet from
the ground. When it reached the valley floor, it climbed to
about one hundred feet, still tipped on its edge, and moved
across the valley to a small reservoir."

The object which was about 30 feet in diameter, next appeared to
flatten out, and a small dome became visible on top. It hovered
over the water for about a minute, then moved to a small field,
where it appeared to be landing. It did not touch the ground,
however, but hovered at a height of about 10 feet some 250 feet
away from the witness, who was standing by his parked patrol
car. The object then tilted up and disappeared rapidly into the
clouds. A fantastic story, yet I interviewed the witness in this
case and am personally satisfied that he is above reproach.

During the years that I have been its consultant, the Air Force
has consistently argued that UFO's were either hoaxes,
hallucinations or misinterpretations of natural phenomena. For
the most part I would agree with the Air Force. As a
professional astronomer--I am chairman of the department of
astronomy at Northwestern University--I have had no trouble
explaining the vast majority of the reported sightings.

But I cannot explain them all. Of the 15,000 cases that have
come to my attention, several hundred are puzzling, and some of
the puzzling incidents, perhaps one in 25, are bewildering. I
have wanted to learn much more about these cases than I have
been able to get from either the reports or the witnesses.

These special cases have been reported by highly respected,
intelligent people who often had technical training --
astronomers, airport -tower operators, anthropologists, Air
Force officer, FBI personnel, physicians, meteorologists,
pilots, radar operators, test pilots and university professors.
I have argued for years within the Air Force that these unusual
cases needed much more study than they were getting. Now,
finally, the Air Force has begun a serious scientific
investigation of the UFO phenomena. (J.C. The Colorado, Condon
Committee)

The public, I am certain, wants to know what to believe--what
can be believed--about the "flying saucer" stories that seem to
be growing more sensational all the time. With all loyalty to
the Air Force, and with a deep appreciation of its problems, I
now feel it my duty to discuss the UFO mystery fully and
frankly. I speak as a scientist with unique experience. To the
best of my knowledge, I am the only scientist who has spent
nearly 20 years monitoring the UFO situation in this and other
countries and who has also read many thousands of reports and
personally interviewed many sighters of UFO's.

Getting at the truth of "flying saucers" has been
extraordinarily difficult because the subject automatically
engenders such instantaneous reactions and passionate beliefs.
Nearly all of my scientific colleagues, I regret to say, have
scoffed at the reports of UFO's as so much balderdash, although
this was a most unscientific reaction since virtually none of
them had ever studied the evidence. Until recently my friends in
the physical sciences wouldn't even discuss UFO's with me. The
subject, in fact, rarely came up. My friends were obviously
mystified as to how I, a scientist, could have gotten mixed up
with "flying saucers" in the first place. It was a little as
though I had been an opera singer who had suddenly taken it into
his head to perform in a cabaret. It was all too embarrassing to
bring up in polite conversation.

While the scientists were chuckling at UFO's, a number of groups
of zealous citizens were telling the public that "flying
saucers" did indeed exist. The believers in UFO's charged the
Air Force with concealing the existence of "flying saucers" to
avoid a public panic. Since I was the Air Force's consultant,
these groups accused me of selling out as a scientist, because I
did not admit that UFO's existed. I was the Air Force's stooge.,
its tame astronomer, a man more concerned with preserving his
consultant's fee than with disclosing the truth to the public.

I received many letters attacking me for not attacking the Air
Force. One typical writer pointed out that as a scientist my
first allegiance was to "fact." he went on to state, "Any person
who has closely followed the UFO story knows that many reports
have been 'explained away' in a manner that can only be called
ludicrous."

Another typical letter declared: "In spite of the fact that the
[Air Force} claims (or is instructed to claim) that UFO's do not
exist, I think that common sense tells most of us that they do.
There have been too many responsible people through the years
that have had terrifying experiences involving UFO's. I think
our Government insults the intelligence of our people in keeping
information regarding UFO's from them."

The question of UFO's has developed into a battle of faiths. One
side, which is dedicated to the Air Force position and backed up
by the "scientific establishment," knows that UFO's do not
exist; the other side knows that UFO's represent something
completely new in human experience. And then we have the rest of
the world, the great majority of people who if they think about
the subject at all, don't know what to think.

The question of whether or not UFO's exist should not be a
battle of faiths. It must be a subject for calm, reasoned,
scientific analysis.

In 1948, when I first heard of the UFO's, I though they were
sheer nonsense, as any scientist would have. Most of the early
reports were quite vague: "I went into the bathroom for a drink
of water and looked out of the window and saw a bright light in
the sky. It was moving up and down and sideways. When I looked
again, it was gone."

At the time, I was director of the observatory at Ohio State
University in Columbus. One day I had a visit from several men
from the technical center at Wright-Patterson Air Force base,
which was only 60 miles away in Dayton. With some obvious
embarrassment, the men eventually brought up the subject of
"flying saucers" and asked me if I would care to serve as
consultant to the Air Force on the matter.

The job didn't seem as though it would take too much time, so I
agreed. When I began reviewing cases, I assumed that there was a
natural explanation for all of the sighting--or at least there
would be if we could find out enough data about the more
puzzling incidents. I generally subscribed to the Air Force view
that the sightings were the results of misidentification, hoaxes
or hallucinations.

During the next few years I had no trouble explaining or
discarding most of the cases referred to me, but a few were
baffling enough to make me wonder--cases that the Air Force
would later carry as "unidentified." Let me emphasize the point
that the Air Force made up its own mind on each case; I merely
submitted an opinion. I soon found that the Air Force had a
tendency to upgrade its preliminary explanations while compiling
its yearly summaries; a "possible" aircraft often became a
"probable" aircraft. I was reminded of the Greek legend of
Procrustes, who tried to fit all men to his single bed. If they
were too long, he chopped them off; if they were too short, he
stretched them out.

Public statements to the contrary, the Air Force has never
really devoted enough money or attention to the problem of UFO's
to get to the bottom of the puzzling cases. The Air Force's UFO
evaluation program, known as "Project Blue Book," is housed in
one room at Wright-Patterson. For most of its history Project
Blue Book has been headed by a captain. This fact alone will
tell anyone familiar with military procedures the relative
position of Project Blue Book on the Air Force's organization
chart. The staff, which has usually consisted of two officers
and a sergeant, has had to try to decide, on the basis of
sketchy statements, the causes of all UFO sightings reported to
the Air Force. From 1947 through 1965, Project Blue Book
reviewed 10,147 cases. Using the Air Force's criteria, the
project identified 9,501, leaving over 600 that were carried as
unidentified.

By 1952 my feeling that the Air Force was not investigating the
reports seriously enough led me to write a paper suggesting that
the subject deserved much closer study. In 1953 the Air Force
did give UFO's more attention, although not nearly enough, to my
mind. A panel of some of the top scientists in the country was
assembled under the direction of Howard P. Robertson, a
distinguished physicist from Cal Tech. The Robertson panel
discussed UFO's for four days. Most of the cases, incidentally,
were not as puzzling as some of the ones we have now. What was
more, the panel was given only 15 reports for detailed study out
of the several hundred that had been made up to that time,
although it did quickly review many others. This was akin to
asking Madame Curie to examine a small fraction of the
pitchblende she distilled and still expecting her to come out
with radium.

I was listed as an associate member of the panel, but my role
was really more that of an observer.  After completing its brief
survey, the panel concluded that "the evidence presented on
unidentified flying objects showed no indication that these
phenomena constitute a direct physical threat to the national
security," and that "we firmly believe there is no residuum of
cases which indicate phenomena which are attributable to foreign
artifacts capable of hostile acts, and that there is no evidence
that the phenomena indicated a need for revision of current
scientific concepts." It is interesting to note the phrase "we
firmly believe," a phrase more appropriate to the cloth than to
the scientific fraternity.

The Robertson report immediately because the main justification
of the Air Force's position--there is nothing to worry
about--and it so remains to this day. I was not asked to sign
the report, but I would not have signed if I had been asked. I
felt that the question was more complicated than the panel
believed and that history might look back someday and say that
the panel had acted hastily. The men took just four days to make
a judgment upon a perplexing subject that I had studied for more
than five years without being able to solve to my satisfaction.

In 1953, the year of the Robertson report, there occurred one of
the most puzzling cases that I have studied. It was reported
first in Black Hawk, S. Dak., and then in Bismarck, N. Dak.,
during the night of August 5 and the early morning of August 6.
A number of persons in Black Hawk reported seeing several
strange objects in the sky. What made these reports particularly
significant was the fact that these people were trained
observers--they were part of the national network of civilians
who were keeping watch for enemy bombers.

At approximately the same time, unidentified blips showed up on
the radarscope at Ellsworth Air Force Base, which is near Black
Hawk. An airborne F-84 fighter was vectored into the area and
reported seeing the UFO's. The pilot radioed that one of the
objects appeared to be over Piedmont S. Dak., and was moving
twice as fast as his jet fighter. It was "brighter than the
brightest star" he had ever seen. When the pilot gave chase, the
light "just disappeared." Five civilians on the ground, who had
watched the jet chase the light, confirmed the pilot's report.

Later a second F-84 was sent aloft and directed toward the UFO,
which still showed on ground radar. After several minutes, the
pilot reported seeing an object with a light of varying
intensity that alternated from white to green. While the pilot
was pursuing the UFO, he noted that his gunsight light had
flashed on, indicating that his plane's radar was picking up a
target. The object was directly ahead of his aircraft but at a
slightly greater altitude. It then climbed very rapidly. When
the pilot saw he was hopelessly losing ground, he broke off the
chase. Radar operators on the ground tracked the fighter coming
back from the chase, while the UFO continued on out of range of
the scope.

As the object sped off to the north, Ellsworth Air Force Base
notified the spotter's control center in Bismarck, 220 miles to
the north, where a sergeant then went out on the roof and saw a
UFO. The Air Force had no planes in Bismarck that could be sent
after the UFO, which finally disappeared later that night.

I investigated this reported sighting myself and was unable to
find a satisfactory explanation. In my report, I noted that "the
entire incident, in my opinion, has too much of an Alice in
Wonderland flavor for comfort."

It was about this time that some firm believers in UFO's became
disgusted with the Air Force and decided to take matters into
their own hands, much like the vigilantes of the Old West; they
organized "to do the job the Air Force was mishandling." These
groups composed of people with assorted backgrounds, were often
the recipients of intriguing reports that never came to the
official attention of Project Blue Book. The first group of this
kind in the United States was the APRO (Aerial Phenomena
Research Organization), founded in 1952 and still going strong,
as is NICAP (National Investigations Committee on Aerial
Phenomena) which was organized several years later.

As the years went by, I learned more and more about the global
nature of UFO sightings. At first I had assumed that it was a
purely American phenomenon, like swallowing goldfish. But
reports of sightings kept coming in from around the world until
70 countries were on the list. As a scientist, I naturally was
interested in correlating all of the data; a zoologist studying
red ants in Utah, say, wants to find out about a new species
found along the Amazon. But when I suggested to the Air Force
that the air attaches abroad be used to gather reports on
foreign sightings, I was turned down. No one in a position of
authority seemed to want to take up the time of the officers
with such an embarrassing subject.

Gradually, I began to accumulate cases that I really couldn't
explain, cases reported by reliable, sincere people whom I often
interviewed in person. I found that the persons making these
reports were often not acquainted with UFO's before their
experience, which baffled and thoroughly frightened them.
Fearing ridicule, they were often reluctant to report the
sighting and did so only out of a sense of duty and a tremendous
desire to get a rational explanation for their irrational
experience. One typical letter to me concluded with the
sentence: "Hoping you don't think I'm nuts but not caring if you
do, Sincerely," . . .

Continued in "Hynek 12/17/66 Sat. Eve. Post article.2"






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                Hynek 12/17/66 Sat. Eve. Post article - Pt. 2

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:11:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:19:00 -0500
Subject: Hynek 12/17/66 Sat. Eve. Post article - Pt. 2

Hynek 12/17/66 Sat. Eve. Post article - Pt. 2

ARE FLYING SAUCERS REAL? - continued
By J. Allen Hynek

We had many reports from people of good repute, yet we had no
scientifically incontrovertible evidence--authenticated movies,
spectrograms of reported lights, "hardware"--on which to make a
judgment. There are no properly authenticated photographs to
match any of the vivid prose descriptions of visual sightings.
Some of the purported "photographs" are patent hoaxes. Others
show little detail; they could be anything. Some show a
considerable amount of detail, but cannot be substantiated.

The evidence for UFO's, then, was entirely without physical
proof. But were all of the responsible citizens who made reports
mistaken or victims of hallucinations? It was an intriguing
scientific question, yet I couldn't find any scientists to
discuss it with.

The general view of the scientists was that UFO's couldn't
exist, therefore they didn't exist, therefore let's laugh off
the idea. This, of course, is a violation of scientific
principles, but the history of science is filled with such
instances. Some scientists refused to look through Galileo's
telescope at sunspots, explaining that "since the sun was
perfect, it couldn't have spots, and therefore it was no use
looking for them." Other scientists refused to believe in the
existence of meteorites; who would be foolish enough to think
that a stone could fall from the sky?

>From time to time I would urge the Air Force to make a more
thorough study of the phenomenon, but nothing ever came of it. I
began to feel a very real sense of frustration. As the years
went by, I continued to find cases that puzzled me while I
examined reports for Project Blue Book. People who were afraid
that the Air Force would scoff at their reports began sending me
letters that were often detailed and well written about their
experiences. The Air Force never attempted to influence my view
on any case, but occasionally the service would disregard my
evaluations. What was more, I was not consulted on some key
cases. (One of the most recent was the well-publicized incident
involving two policemen in Ravenna, Ohio, last spring.)

Then, from 1958 through 1963, the UFO reports began to diminish
in quality as well as quantity, and I felt that perhaps the
"flying-saucer" era was at last on the wane and would soon
vanish. But since 1964 there has been a sharp rally in the
number of puzzling sightings. The more impressive cases seem to
fit into a pattern. The UFO's had a bright red glow. They
hovered a few feet off the ground, emitting a high-pitched
whine. Animals in the vicinity were terrified, often before the
UFO's became visible to the people who later reported the
incident. When the objects at last began to disappear, they
vanished in a matter of seconds.

A very real paradox was now beginning to develop. As the Air
Force's consultant, I was acquiring a reputation in the public
eye of being a debunker of UFO's. Yet, privately, I was becoming
more and more concerned over the fact that people with good
reputations, who had no possible hope of gain from reporting a
UFO, continued to describe "out-of-this-world" incidents.

In July, 1965, I wrote a letter to the Air Force calling again
for a systematic study of the phenomenon. "I feel it is my
responsibility to point out," I said, "that enough puzzling
sightings have been reported by intelligent and often
technically competent people to warrant closer attention than
Project Blue Book can possible encompass at the present time."

Then, in March of this year, came the reports of the
now-celebrated "swamp-gas" sightings in Michigan. On two
separate nights, at spots separated by 63 miles, nearly 100
people reported seeing red, yellow, and green lights glowing
over swampy areas. When I received the first accounts of the
UFO's, I recognized at once that my files held far better, more
coherent and more articulate reports than these. Even so, the
incident was receiving such great attention in the press that I
went to Michigan with the hope that here was a case that I could
use to focus scientific attention on the UFO problem. I wanted
the scientists to consider the phenomenon.

But when I arrived in Michigan, I soon discovered that the
situation was so charged with emotion that it was impossible for
me to do any really serious investigation. The Air Force left me
almost completely on my own, which meant that I sometimes had to
fight my way through the clusters of reporters who were
surrounding the key witnesses whom I had to interview.

The entire region was gripped with near-hysteria. One night at
midnight I found myself in a police car racing toward a reported
sighting. We had radio contact with other squad cars in the
area. "I see it" from one car, "there it is" from another, "it's
east of the river near Dexter" from a third. Occasionally even I
thought I glimpsed "it."

Finally several squad cars met at an intersection. Men spilled
out and pointed excitedly at the sky. "See--there it is! It's
moving!"

But it wasn't moving. "It" was the star Arcturus, undeniably
identified by its position in relation to the handle of the Big
Dipper. A sobering demonstration for me.

In the midst of this confusion, I got a message from the Air
Force: There would be a press conference, and I would issue a
statement about the cause of the sightings. It did me no good to
protest, to say that as yet I had no real idea what had caused
the reported sightings in the swamps. I was to have a press
conference, ready or not.

Searching for a justifiable explanation of the sightings, I
remembered a phone call from a botanist at the University of
Michigan, who called to my attention the phenomenon of burning
"swamp gas." This gas, caused by decaying vegetation, has been
known to ignite spontaneously and to cast a flickering light.
The glow is well-known in song and story as "jack-o'-lantern,"
"fox fire," and "wil-o'-the-wisp." After learning more about
swamp gas from other Michigan scientists, I decided that it was
a "possible" explanation that I would offer to the reporters.

The press conference, however, turned out to be no place for
scholarly discussion: it was a circus. The TV cameramen wanted
me in one spot, the newspaper men wanted me in another, and for
a while both groups were actually tugging at me. Everyone was
clamoring for a single, spectacular explanation of the
sightings. They wanted little green men. When I handed out a
statement that discussed swamp gas, many of the men simply
ignored the fact that I said it was a "possible" reason. I
watched with horror as one reported scanned the page, found the
phrase "swamp gas," underlined it, and rushed for a telephone.

Too many of the stories the next day not only said that swamp
gas was definitely the cause of the Michigan lights but implied
that it was the cause of other UFO sightings as well. I got out
of town as quickly and as quietly as I could.

I supposed that the swamp-gas incident, which has become a
subject fro cartoons that I greatly enjoy, was the low point of
my association with UFO's. The experience was very obvious proof
that public excitement had mounted to the point that it was
ridiculous to expect one professor, working alone in the field,
to conduct a scholarly investigation. We had quite clearly
reached a new state in the UFO problem.

Three weeks after the Michigan incident I appeared before a
hearing into UFO's that was conducted by the House Committee on
Armed Services. I pointed out to the committee that I had a
dossier of "twenty particularly well-reported UFO cases which,
despite the character, technical competence and number of
witnesses, I have not been able to explain. Ten of these reports
were made by scientists or by highly trained individuals, five
were made by members of the armed services or police, and five
were made by other reliable people. The committee urged the Air
Force to give continued attention to the subject and was assured
by Air Secretary Dr. Harold Brown that it would.

A serious inquiry into the nature of UFO's would be justified,
in my opinion, just on the basis of the puzzling cases that have
been reported during the last two years. It seems to me that
there are now four possible explanations for the phenomena:

First, they are utter nonsense, the result of hoaxes or
hallucinations. This, of course, is the view that a number of my
scientific colleagues have taken. I think that enough evidence
has piled up to shift the burden of proof to the critics who cry
fraud. And if the UFO's are merely hallucinations, they still
deserve intensive study; we need to learn how the minds of so
many men so widely separated can be so deluded over so many
years.

Second, the UFO's are some kind of military weapon being tested
in secret. This theory is easily dispensed with. Secret devices
are usually tested in very limited geographical areas. Why
should the United States, or any other country, test them in
scores of nations? The problem of preventing a security leak
would be impossible.

Third, the UFO's are really from outer space. I agree with the
Air Force. There is no incontrovertible evidence, as far as I
can see, to say that we have strange visitors. But it would be
foolish to rule out the possibility absolutely.

Solely for the sake of argument, let me state the case in its
most favorable light. We all suffer from cosmic
provincialism--the notion that we on this earth are somehow
unique. Why should our sun be the only star in the universe to
support intelligent life, when the number of stars is a 1
followed by twenty zeros?

Stars are born, grow old and die, and it now seems that the
formation of planetary systems is part of this evolutionary
process. You would expect to find planets around a star just as
you find kittens around a cat or acorns around an oak. Suppose
that only one star in 10 is circled by a planetary system that
has life; that means that the number of life-supporting stars in
the universe would be a 1 followed by 19 zeros.

We also know that some stars are many millions of year older
than our sun, which means that life elsewhere in the universe
may have evolved many millions of years beyond our present
state. That could mean that other planets in other solar systems
may have solved the problem of aging, which we are beginning to
grapple with even now. If a life span reached 10,000 years, let
us say, a space journey of 200 to 300 years would be relatively
short. In that time it would be possible to get from some
distant planetary systems to ours.

A highly advanced civilization, such as the one I am
postulating, would naturally keep an eye on the progress of life
elsewhere in its galaxy. Any signs of unusual scientific
progress might be reason enough to send a reconnaissance vehicle
to find out what was going on. It so happens that in recent
years we have made a very important advance of this kind; the
development of the use of nuclear energy.

This is still "science fiction," of course, but let me take the
story a step further. Some skeptics who scoff at reported UFO
sightings often ask why the "flying saucers" don't try to
communicate with us. One answer might be; Why should they? We
wouldn't try to communicate with a new species of kangaroo we
might find in Australia; we would just observe the animals.

Is there any connection between the reported UFO sightings and
the scientific probability of life elsewhere in our galaxy? I
don't know. I find no compelling evidence for it, but I don't
rule it out automatically.

The fourth possible explanation of UFO's is that we are dealing
with some kind of natural phenomenon that we as yet cannot
explain or even conceive of. Think how our knowledge of the
universe has changed in 100 years. In 1866 we not only knew
nothing about nuclear energy, we didn't even know that the atom
had a nucleus. Who would have dreamed 100 years ago that
television would be invented? Who can say what startling facts
we will learn about our world in the next 100 years?

All of these possibilities deserve serious consideration and
now, at long last, they will get it. In October the Air Force
announced that a thorough investigation of UFO's will be
conducted at the University of Colorado by a team of
distinguished scientists, headed by Dr. Edward Condon, the
former director of the National Bureau of Standards.

I cannot help but feel a small sense of personal triumph and
vindication. The night the appointment was announced, my wife
and I went out and had a few drinks to celebrate.

I am particularly pleased that the Condon committee will have
time to work into the problem because I cannot consider anyone
qualified to speak authoritatively on the total UFO phenomenon
unless he has read at least a few thousand original (not
summarized) reports, and is thoroughly acquainted with the
global nature of reported UFO sightings. The truly puzzling and
outstanding UFO reports are few in number compared to the welter
of poor reports.

Recently I had dinner with several members of the Condon
committee. What a pleasure it was to sit down with men who were
open-minded about UFO's, who did not look at me as though I were
a Martian myself. For the first time other scientists, who
apparently have been wondering all along, have openly talked
about the reports. One leading scientist wrote me the other day:
"For some time now I have been convinced of the reality of this
phenomenon based on reports in the general news media. It has
seemed to me that even with a heavy discount there is a core of
reliable observations which we cannot shrug off. Twice in recent
weeks I have stated my views on the subject in small
conversational groups of respectable, scholarly friends, and
found that they were amazed that I should take these matters
seriously. So I know that it took some courage for you to speak
out."

I would like to suggest two more steps to help solve the UFO
problem:

First of all the valuable data that we have accumulated--good
reports from all over the world--must be computerized so that we
can rapidly compare new sightings with old and trace patterns of
UFO behavior.

Second, we need good photographs of UFO's. Although the Air
Force has probably spent less on UFO's so far than it has on
wastebaskets. I realize that it is impractical to expect the
service to set up a costly "flying-saucer" surveillance system
across the country. When a UFO is spotted, the terrified witness
usually picks up the phone at once and calls the local police,
who have missed dozens of opportunities in the past to record
the phenomena on film. I recommend that every police chief in
the country make sure that at least one of his squad cars
carries in its glove compartment a camera loaded with color
film. The cameras, which could also be used for regular police
work, might be furnished by civic or service groups. (I carry a
camera in my briefcase at all times.)

Finally, I would like to emphasize my views on a controversial
subject. During all of my years of association with the Air
Force, I have never seen any evidence for the charge about UFO's
most often leveled against the service: that there is deliberate
cover-up of knowledge of space visitors to prevent the public
from panicking. The entire history of the Air Force and the
UFO's can be understood only if we realize that the Pentagon has
never believed that UFO's could be anything novel, and it still
doesn't. The working hypothesis of the Air Force has been that
the stimulus behind every UFO report (apart from out and out
hoaxes and a few hallucinations) is a misidentification of a
conventional object or a natural phenomenon. It is just as
simple as that.

Now after a delay of 18 years, the Air Force and American
science are about to try for the first time, really, to discover
what, if anything we can believe about "flying saucers."

End Sat. Eve. Post article:

To Summary of the preceding article:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/dec/m15-009.shtml
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Those of us familiar with the Colorado Condon Study know what
occurred back then.

Click here if you're not familiar with same:
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/condon.html

Click below for extracts of a letter he wrote to his boss
in the Air Force explaining things that were wrong with
Project Blue Book  http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/ocr.5a.html

The opinion Hynek expressed in the next to last paragraph
changed somewhat with the releases of certain FOIA documents
by the government in 1979 & 1981.

To see this, click below for several quotes
from Hynek at various times throughout his career.
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/ocr.3b.html#anchor75480

To see exactly what changed his mind,
click below for the 1979 and 1981 governmental releases:
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/Nsday.Art.79.html#anchor1389688
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/frnt.sci.81.html#anchor417559






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 16

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:19:02 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:24:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

Reger,

>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 22:42:56 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>Hello, List!

>Some time ago, I posted the beginning of this thread (see
>archives) as a starting point for a discussion regarding
>abductions and the reasons why ETs bother returning victims,
>erasing their memories and, further, how ETs observe humans on a
>day to day basis. Considering the previous amount of discussion
>on this list regarding abduction experiences, both first hand
>and second hand, I thought this subject ripe for exploration.

>While I got two short bites, basically this thread is dead!

>What gives?

So sad that you are disappointed :-(

I must have missed your original post. What were your ideas in
this regard?

For me: I don't believe the abductions have happened in the
first place so the rest becomes redundant.

How's that for a stirring starter?

Regards,
Leanne  ];-)






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   Dec > Dec 16

                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:27:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:40:15 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:07:05 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: How To Film An Abduction

>I agree. The methods presented in Mark's post are very well
>thought out. The only fly in the ointment that I see is possibly
>this:

>Most (if not all) of the abductions that I've read about contain
>references to the "visitors" speaking without moving their
>mouths; i.e. telephathy. Wouldn't such telepathic capabilities
>spoil the element of surprise so crucial to capturing the event
>on film or video? Perhaps it would be best if the potential
>abductee was kept in the dark about the specifics of any given
>plan; perhaps, even, not being told that there IS a plan!

Good point. Something similar has been talked about in other posts
here.

What I especially liked about Mark's approach was searching for
physical traces of the event, in (for instance) materials the
abductors allegedly passed through. I remain convinced that if
abductions have physical reality, they have to leave some kind
of physical trace, even if it's very slight and might take a
long time to discover.

Greg Sandow





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                   Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"

From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:08:51 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:38:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"


>Subj:  UFO UpDate: Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"
>Date:  12/14/98 12:55:22 PM Eastern Standard Time
>From:  updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)

>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:59:15 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: "Jerome Clark" <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"
>>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 98 11:38:16 PST

>>The above is quite amusing, of course.  The strategy ought to
>>be familiar with those listfolk who recall America's traumatic
>>experience in Vietnam.  As we were losing the war in the field
>>and it was clear nothing was going to change in that regard,
>>the late Vermont Senator George Aiken proposed a solution:
>>declare victory and go home.  That's exactly what Gary is doing
>>here.

>Nope, not going to let this pass without a historical comment.
>Nearly every historian now agrees that we were winning the war
>in the field. Those reporting on TET now concede that it was an
>American victory because the VC ceased to exist as a force after
>TET was over.

>Sorry, but it was the the negotiations held to "end" the war
>that changed what was obvious to those in the field to a
>"defeat" for the American side. Read the recent histories, even
>those written from the communist perspective.

>KRandle


Double nope, can't let this pass.  The reality of Vietnam was
never winning the war in the field - something our military
could have done at any time with sufficient application of
force.  America lost the war on the moral ground.

In that regard, the government of the United States, or at least
significant elements, have lessons still to learn.  As regards
the matter of extraterrestrials, UFOs and the application of
intelligence measures in the field of American life, the
cover-up is likewise failing on moral grounds.

While the House Judiciary Committee makes a fool of itself
attempting to delineate the framework of moral government around
matters of sex and defense of private sex - the Secret Empire,
the intelligence wing of the military industrial complex,
disembowels the American Constitution and treats citizens as
children, or worse, tolerated fools interfering in the waging of
secrecy.

If the proper checks and balances, wisely provided by the
founders, had operated as they should since 1947, Vietnam would
have never occurred and the study of extraterrestrial phenomena,
even perhaps extraterrestrial diplomacy, would now be taught in
every university in the land.

Governments thrive on power, acquiescence, misdirection and
coercion, or at least they do to the extent that citizens
permit.   In the matter of Vietnam citizens ended an abuse of
power.  In the matter of the government cover-up of first hand
knowledge of the extraterrestrial presence, they will do the
same.

Steve Bassett





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             Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Update 12-15-98

From: psa@direct.ca (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:54:23 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:27:28 -0500
Subject: Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Update 12-15-98


Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Update
December 15, 1998


Main web Site:
www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310

1998 Updates:
www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1998


_____________________________


NEW LOWVILLE PHOTOS AVAILABLE

New ground shot photos of the Lowville, Ontario formation
(October 17; rough "c" shape in 8' - 10' tall corn) are now
available (=A9 Drew Gauley, CPR-Canada) on the CPR-Canada
web site on the 1998 reports page.

____________________________


Web site updated December 15.

____________________________



For further information or correspondence, contact:

Paul Anderson
Director
CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA
Affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International
Main Web Site:  www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310
1998 Updates:  www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1998

Representative
BLT RESEARCH, INC.

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue, Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4
Tel / Fax:  604.731.8522
E-Mail:  psa@direct.ca






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                 Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:35:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:42:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request  For Help


>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:39:46 -0800 (PST)
>From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request  For Help

>This is potentially a very
>>important inquiry, and John and I would be grateful for any
>>help.

>>One last thought. Ideally, we'd take fresh x-rays, so a doctor
>>looking at the film would know for sure where the x-rays had
>>come from. If anyone is in a position to help us do this, I'll
>>be especially happy.

>Derrell Simms? <g>


Um, yeah, well.....maybe not!

I'd been wondering, by the way, exactly what anyone could write
on a Palm III, and now I know. Sharp, funny e-mail that requires
only two words. Nice one, Roger!

Greg Sandow





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                 Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:45:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:45:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request  For Help

>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:39:46 -0800 (PST)
>From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help
>>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 13:07:52 -0500

>>So here's my request. Can anyone here suggest someone? If so,
>>please e-mail John or me privately. This is potentially a very
>>important inquiry, and John and I would be grateful for any
>>help.

>>One last thought. Ideally, we'd take fresh x-rays, so a doctor
>>looking at the film would know for sure where the x-rays had
>>come from. If anyone is in a position to help us do this, I'll
>>be especially happy.

>Derrell Simms? <g>


Hi Roger, hi All,

There's a cruel truth to that 'joke' Roger. Other than an
abductee who offered to ask his personal physicians if they'd be
interested, and your suggestion, we haven't heard from a soul.
Shame. I have other material (other x-rays) that I wanted looked
at as well as my own. The other set of x-rays has baffled a few
doctors and one radiologist that I have shown them to. If we
could get someone (physician) willing to step up to the plate
(other than another foot doctor) we might start to make a little
progress. I have always been willing to try to substantiate my
claims. I just haven't run into anyone (as of yet) who is
actually doing the work of investigating what material there is
already available. Oh there's tons of talk and theories, just no
one -doing the work!-

Derrel Sims eh! Yeah, funny. Apparently so is any attempt at
trying to verify anything relating to abduction. Just a big
joke.

I believe it was Danny Kaye who said, "He who laughs last,
laughs last!" <G> Laugh now while you can and while it's still
something you can consider 'funny.' 'Things' in Life have this
nasty tendency to change suddenly without warning, and the
oportunity for lighthearted jokes and jabs may not always be
there.

Rome burns while Nero Fiddles.

I'm here and so are _many_ others if anyone is willing to do the
investigative work. So far all I see and hear is a ton of
theories (none of which ever entertain the possibility that we
may be telling the truth) and lots and lots of jokes. Sorry I
can't join in the frivolity. What is happening is happening to
me and my wife and my children. Makes it _real_hard_ for me to
laugh about it.

Peace,

John Velez, Fighter of windmills
________________________________________________
                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
              http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________






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                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:56:23 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:48:02 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction



>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: How To Film An Abduction
>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:30:11 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:07:05 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: How To Film An Abduction
>>I agree. The methods presented in Mark's post are very well
>>thought out. The only fly in the ointment that I see is possibly
>>this:

>>Most (if not all) of the abductions that I've read about contain
>>references to the "visitors" speaking without moving their
>>mouths; i.e. telephathy. Wouldn't such telepathic capabilities
>>spoil the element of surprise so crucial to capturing the event
>>on film or video? Perhaps it would be best if the potential
>>abductee was kept in the dark about the specifics of any given
>>plan; perhaps, even, not being told that there IS a plan!

>Thanks, Roger. Actually, all of my suggestions were post-event
>measurements, which would mean that the abductee would not or
>need not be aware that those steps would be taken. Indeed, they
>could well be the first steps of an investigator after an
>initial report.

<snip>

>fibers, taken up from the bloodstream after being incorporated
>by breathing in that environment or as a result of material on
>instruments used in a procedure.

>It sure beats this "implant surgery" activity, of which,
>frankly, I am very skeptical.


Hi Mark.... List and other entities lurking:

I am very curious as to your specific meaning in your last
sentence above, Mark....

>It sure beats this "implant surgery" activity, of which
>frankly, I am very skeptical>

Marc, what is it about implant surgery which causes this
skepticism?

I am not challenging you, merely needing clarification as
to what is causing this incertitude.






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             Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:22:06 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:56:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.


>Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:52:23 -0500
>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>Kal,

>The FOX press release states:

>"Also featured is a rare interview with Meier himself, who defends his
>world-famous footage despite the massive evidence against him".

>How is the apparent contradiction explained - does Meier admit to
>hoaxing many of the photographs, yet still maintain much of his
>material is genuine?

Hello James,

I'm not replying for Korff, but what Meier admitted to was
being told by his key alien that his one photograph of Asket,
and one of her and another alien, were not genuine. This was
supposedly due to MIBs working in collaboration with an
anti-Meier person, who used a look-alike of Asket in a photo
that they managed to substitute for the real photo, before they
were returned from the photo shop. Apparently Meier believes he
is being told the truth on this by his ET (of course, those on
this list who think that Korff in any way uncovered deception on
the part of Meier in his anti-Meier book can assume that Meier
made this up.) One item that could support Meier's belief on the
truth of what he was told is that in one of his Contact Report
conversations of 1975 or 1976 Ptaah told him that Asket had a
"double" living in the U.S. This has been available to most of
us to read since the early or mid '80s.

As far as I know, Meier hasn't admitted to being told that any
of his UFO photos were tampered with before he received the
developed film back, though he noticed back around 1977 that in
one series of 14 surviving photos (the one with the Swiss jet
fighter in the same picture and the sounds of the jet recorded
on tape) they all had returned from the developer's reversed in
left and right. But he knows his 33 surviving
Hasenboel-Langenberg UFO photos of 29 March 1976 are genuine --
i.e. they look just like what he shot with his camera, and the
62 Bachtelhoernli-Unterbachtel photos of 8 March, 1976, and the
10 or 11 photos surviving from his filming at
Fuchsbueel-Hofhalden on 9 July, 1975, and so on.

However, Meier doesn't vouch for any of his photos that escaped
into others' hands, such as those acquired by Hans Jacob and
later by Korff, since he doesn't know if they may have been
tampered with.






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               Fairchild's Saucer-Like Stratos Craft For Sale

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:34:25 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:03:58 -0500
Subject: Fairchild's Saucer-Like Stratos Craft For Sale


Forwarded from 'alt.ufo.reports'.

Stig

*******

>From sddm@webtv.net Tue Dec 15 20:02:53 1998
Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
Subject: RARE UFO PICTURE FOR SALE
From: sddm@webtv.net (Dancingtree, Earthwalker)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:02:53 -0500 (EST)


I have this picture that is "20x16", that is from the 1960's of
an aircraft that was called the STRATOS built by Fairchild
industries. This is an official top secret document, and it is
not important how I attained it but I will tell serious buyer.

The picture is black and white with a a crease right down the
center of it, it is posterboard material. The craft is a disc
with a small bubble type thing on the middle of it. There is one
fin sticking up on what I presume is the back, this is like
nothing I have ever seen before accept in movies.

This is proof that someone in 1960's had this craft built by
Fairchild.

The picture has been authenticated by one top UFO researcher and
by an former employee of Fairchild.

I have this picture in my possession for about 3 years now and
would like to see it go into good hands that could publicize the
evidence. I apologize for not having a picture, but I am unable
to put them on the net. I can give references to the buyer,

I am asking 300.00 for the picture and it will be first come
first served basis. I can tell you that the picture is worth far
more than what I am asking for it. Please send me email only on
this subject, send email to

sddm@webtv.net

Serious buyers only!






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                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 01:03:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:59:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:58:46 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>In reviewing the body of work I have put on the list over the
>last couple of weeks, and then the body of work posted by my
>critics, I see two things:

>1) I have made several substantive points which have not been
>addressed, at all, by those who purport to be criticising me.

I've yet to see a substantive point. I've seen speculation.

>2) I have to consider why this might be true:

>        a) Failure to comprehend due to lack of time, etc.;
>        b) Inability to understand due to, well, let's not go
>           there.

Or could it be that people simply disagree with you? Is it
possible, Gary, for reasonable people to disagree about the
points you raise?

>The bulk of Mr. Larsen's presentation is most interesting,
>concerned as it is with hard-to-get documents, procured by the
>author from unnamed sources.  Most of these documents were not
>officially classified -- officially.  But like many other such
>documents they had been made very hard to obtain -- very hard.

<snip>

>As Larsen states,

>       "Over the past five years we have developed a technique
>       to secure credible sources who have provided us with
>       documents that have previously been unknown, priced out
>       of the market, or while not classified, were
>        nevertheless, unavailable."
>

Well, OK, Gary....exactly what documents are these? Do you know
what documents Larsen is talking about? Or are you simply
assuming that they're sensitive government documents, things
that only an insider would be likely to pry loose?

You don't tell us much here. If I look at Larsen's words -- the
words you yourself quote -- I don't see anything remarkable.
Some of the documents were unknown. So? There are devastating
unknown documents and routine ones.

Some of the documents were "priced out of the market."
Evidently, then, they were for sale, though at a very high
price. How secret could they be?

And then he says some of the documents were not classified, but
still hard to obtain. That could describe all sorts of harmless
government documents. In particular, it could describe public
documents that were available some years previously, but later
went out of print. (Publications from the Government Printing
Office, for example.)

Now, Gary, maybe there's more to this. But you aren't showing us
that there is. You need, in the old playground phrase, to put up
or shut up. You need to:

1. Tell us what these documents are, so we can see for ourselves
what kind of information Larsen was able to unearth.

or

2. Show us that, elsewhere in the remarks you quoted, Larsen
said explicitly that he's talking about sensitive government
material.

>I think you folks are going to really enjoy my book, with
>research backed up as it is by facts, not the propaganda others
>have offered on these subjects.  This is just the tip of the
>iceberg.

And quite a mushy tip it is. I hope your book is better
documented than your posts. As for "propaganda," let me repeat a
question I asked earlier. Is there any possibility that an
honest and reasonable person might simply disagree with you?
Does every contrary view have to be "propaganda"?

Greg Sandow





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             Re: 33 Years Ago Today: The Kecksburg, PA UFO Crash

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:02:14 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:36:32 -0500
Subject: Re: 33 Years Ago Today: The Kecksburg, PA UFO Crash


>From: Stan Gordon <paufo@westol.com>
>Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:22:57 -0500
>Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:20:30 -0500
>Subject: 33 Years Ago Today: The Kecksburg, PA UFO Crash

<snip>

>At the time many people saw a brilliant object moving across the
>sky.  The news media focused on a young boy, who while playing
>outside, said he saw an object fall from the sky into some nearby
>woods.

The boy's actual words, quoted in papers and the wire services,
were that he had seen "A star on fire".  His mother then saw a
cloud train in the sky near the Northwestern horizon and assumed
the rest.

The media pursued his story since there were numerous accounts
from others, that an aerial object was seen over a large area
including many reports from the greater Pittsburgh area.
Besides the police authorities, various newspapers, and radio
and tv stations around Pittsburgh, had their phone lines jammed
with calls about the object in the sky. Coincidentally, author
Frank Edwards, who had written some popular books on UFOs, was
a guest on a KDKA radio talk show in Pittsburgh that evening,
hosted by the late Mike Levine.

During my years of investigation into the matter, other
witnesses who saw the object go down into the woods that day
have been located. It has been stated that moments after the
object fell, blue smoke rose up among the trees, but dissipated
quickly. Many people say that the military, including members of
the Army and Air Force, began to arrive in the area around the
village of Kecksburg within a few hours after the reported
landing. During the evening, reporters from numerous media
sources went to Kecksburg to investigate the event. The area
around the alleged impact site was cordoned off, and a search
for the object was conducted in the woods.  Neither civlians nor
reporters were able to get near the spot where the object had
reportedly fallen.  Hundreds of spectators looked on from a
narrow country road which circled around the area, unaware that
the object appears to have fallen on the opposite side of the
woods.

As time passed that evening, many people left disappointed that
they couldn't see the object. A few curious folks tried to sneak
down into the woods, and later told me that they were turned
back by the military.  Late that night, others say they observed
a military flatbed tractor-trailer truck, carrying a large
tarpulin covered object, leaving the area at a high rate of
speed. Reporters are among the many witnesses who verify that
they saw military personnel in the Kecksburg area that night.
The front page of the Greensburg, PA Tribune-Review county
edition dated December 10, 1965, ran the headlines "Unidentified
Flying Object Falls Near Kecksburg" and "Army Ropes Off Area."
The city edition of the same paper however, on the same day ran
the headline "Searchers Fail To Find Object."

Officially, no object was found in the woods by searchers.  It
was suggested that the most likely explanation was that the
brilliant object in the sky was a meteor. But word that
something was removed from the site by the military that night,
quickly circulated around the county.  The Kecksburg incident
remained a topic for area radio talk shows for years as it does
today. As the years passed, I would receive various accounts
from sources who claimed knowledge of the event.  Many of those
involved with the incident even today, wish to remain anonymous.
Others have gone public and stand by their accounts. Some have
faced personnal attacks and ridicule.  Many important witnesses
have passed away.

What we now know is that there are individuals who say that they
went down into the woods that December day in 1965, before the
military arrived, and came across upon a large metallic
acorn-shaped object partially buried in the ground. The device
was large enough for a man to stand inside of it.  The object
was a bronze-gold color, and appeared to be one solid piece of
metal, displaying no rivets or seams.  At the back of the acorn
shape was what witness Jim Romansky calls the bumper area.

Upon this area were unusual markings that Romansky says looked
similar to ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics.  Romansky who has
been a machinist for many years, says the object itself, looked
as though it had been made from liquid metal and poured into a
big mold.  Since the object was impacted in the ground, the
bottom portion was not visible, but what could be seen appeared
well intact. The late John Murphy, was the new director of WHJB
radio in Greensburg at the time, and is believed to have been
the first reporter on the scene.  His former wife says that she
was in radio contact with him from the site that day, and that
he told her that he went down into the woods and saw the object.
Various informants have approached me with information.  Some of
these were people who had military or government affiliation and
wish not to be identified at this time. Some information is
expected to be revealed in the future, when these sources feel
that they are safe to disclose what they know.

I have also received anonymous tips that pointed me in the right
direction which helped to uncover other details.  Before
Unsolved Mysteries broadcast their story about Kecksburg in
1990, I was contacted by a former Air Force security policeman
who told me that he was among the unit that guarded the object
from PA, when it arrived in the early morning hours of December
10, 1965 at Lockbourne Air Force near Columbus, Ohio. He
remembers extreme security measures at the time, and says that
the object was only a the base for a short time, and then
continued on to Wright-Patterson Air Force base near Dayton,
Ohio.

We later learned that the object was allegedly sealed up inside
a building at that base. After years of searching for government
documents relating to this event, the only official record
located was in the Air Force Project Blue Book files.  Included
in the report it was stated "A further call was made to the
Oakdale Radar site in Pennsylvania.  A three man team has been
dispatched to Acme [Some residents not far from the site have an
Acme mailing address] to investigate and pick up an object that
started a fire."  While the report shows a lot of interest from
various agencies concerning the aerial object, the report also
indicates that the search found nothing. I have learned a lot
about the Kecksburg case over the years, yet there remain many
unanswered questions. I surely don't have all of the answers.

Based on the accounts of multitudes of eyewitnesses which I have
interviewed, I am convinced that an object did fall from the sky
and apparently was removed by the military.  Other witnesses say
they saw NASA personnel at the scene that night also involved in
the search. Many have asked me what I believe that the object
was, and my reply still is "I don't know."  As I have stated in
the past, the two most likely possibilities are (1) a highly
advanced man-made space probe with some reentry control
capability (2) an extraterrestrial spacecraft.  It has been
confirmed that a faulty Soviet Venus probe identified as Kosmos
96, reentered in Canada on the same date, but at about 3:18 A.M.
The sightings around Kecksburg occurred at about 4:47 P.M. many
hours later. The Russian's have told me that Kosmos 96 was not
the source of what fell that day.

 Other researchers have provided me with interesting but
unverifiable information, that they have talked with former NASA
sources who claimed to have examined the object which fell in
PA, and determined it to be Soviet in origin. I have also talked
with two former miltary men who are unknown to each other,  that
told me that during different years, and at different
installations, they saw the recovery report on the Kecksburg
object, and both said the report indicated that the object was
extraterrestrial.  From what the observers tell us, the object
whatever it was, appeared to be slowing down a few miles before
it impacted. During it's flight, it appears to have made some
turns, and those who saw the object drop from the sky, say it
was moving quite slowly as it moved towards the woods.  This
might account for the good condition of the object itself, and
the little damage at the impact site, except for trees which
were reportedly knocked down.

One question we must ask is what was it that fell which was so
important that it caused the military toi act the way they did
at the scene?  Various witnesses have now gone public confirming
that armed soliders were around the village, and were preventing
anyone from trespassing near the crash site.  Jerry Betters, a
popular jazz musician from Pittsburgh, has gone public and told
his story that soldiers aimed rifles at him and his friends,
ordering them from a back road, as an Army flat bed
tractor-trailer with an acorn-shaped object on board, was making
it's way up from a field.  More recently, a prominent
businessman contacted me and told me how he and his friends,
then teenagers in 1965, tried to get near the site and were
stopped my military personnel.  He was frightened at the time of
the experience, he thought the soldier was going to shoot him.
Would armed soldiers respond to the scene of a meteorite crash?
Who issued the orders for such an operation to take place?

Some of you are aware that earlier this year, I released a 92
minute video documentary on the incident called "Kecksburg The
Untold Story" which I produced at my own expense.  Many key
witnesses are getting up in years, and some are not in good
health.  This was an opportunity for those involved to tell
their own experiences about what occurred.  For the first time
some new and startling information is revealed about what
allegedly occurred.  Some of these people reveal details which
strongly suggests a coverup. Also included in the video, are
audio excerpts from the original 1965 WHJB radio broadcast
"Object In The Woods."  One man details his claim of seeing a
partially covered body inside a building at Wright-Patterson, at
the same time the Kecksburg object was being examined.

This case is much to involved to cover here in detail.  One good
source of information on the case can be found in Kevin Randle's
book "A History of UFO Crashes."  The Kecksburg mystery remains.
Was the object a man-made space device or did we receive a
visitor from outside of our world?  Recently while visiting an
area business, a worker recognized me and asked about the
Kecksburg case. He told me that he has had an interest in the
incident for years since he had a relative who worked at the
pentagon at the time, and this relative had made a special trip
to this area to investigate that matter. When this person asked
his relative about what had happened, he refused to give any
details, but his words were remembered "There was more to it
then you'll ever know."  I have no doubt that there are other
individuals who have important information on this case. It's
time that the truth is revealed, regardless of what the source
of the object was. It's been 33 years, it's time to break the
silence. If you have any information and would  like to talk
with me confidentially, contact me by email or mail and we can
make arrangements to communicate.

Those who would like information on how to obtain the Kecksburg
video can see ordering information by connecting to my website
at www.westol.com/~paufo  My mailing address is P.O. Box 936,
Greensburg, PA 15601. UFO Hotline 724-838-7768

Stan Gordon






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   Dec > Dec 16

                       Shlomo Arnon & Barry Goldwater

From: Shlomo Arnon <bbjc@ozemail.com.au>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:04:45 +1100
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:34:35 -0500
Subject: Shlomo Arnon & Barry Goldwater

[Non-Subscriber Post]

Dear Friends,

I found your comments on the Jeff Rense page.

I am the Shlomo Arnon who corresponded with Barry Goldwater.

If you will type my name correctly and use internet search
engins you will find the clear complete READABLE version of
Barrys letter to me.

Regards,
Shlomo

http://www.sightings.com/ufo2/goldwater2.htm





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   Dec > Dec 16

                           Re: UFO Sighted At TUE

From: Asgeir Waehre Skavhaug <KONAWS@statoil.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:52:58 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:37:01 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Sighted At TUE


>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:25:46 -0500
>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: UFO Sighted At TUE


>Forwarded from alt.ufo.reports. This one kinda reminds me of the
>Mexico UFO vid.

>Terry

>    <><><><><><><><><>

>From: jos <josvanr@xs4all.nl>
>Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
>Subject: UFO sighted at TUE
>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:03:27 +0100

>Recently, a ufo was sighted at the Technical University of
>Eindhoven.

>Photographic evidence can be found at the url

>http://www.dse.nl/~josvanr

>Please give your opinion on the genuineness of these pictures.


Terry & List,

Why do all these UFO photos/'evidence' have to be so darn
blurred?


Regards,
AWS






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                           Re: UFO Sighted At TUE

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:16:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:39:17 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Sighted At TUE

>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:25:46 -0500
>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: UFO Sighted At TUE

>Forwarded from alt.ufo.reports. This one kinda reminds me of the
>Mexico UFO vid.

>From: jos <josvanr@xs4all.nl>
>Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
>Subject: UFO sighted at TUE
>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:03:27 +0100

>Recently, a ufo was sighted at the Technical University of
>Eindhoven.

>Please give your opinion on the genuineness of these pictures.

The edge of the object goes off the edge of the picture, which
is suspicious from a hoax perspective.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------





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   Dec > Dec 16

                        Re: How To Film An Abduction

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:42:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:42:12 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:56:23 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: How To Film An Abduction

>Hi Mark.... List and other entities lurking:

>I am very curious as to your specific meaning in your last
>sentence above, Mark....

>>It sure beats this "implant surgery" activity, of which
>>frankly, I am very skeptical>

>Marc, what is it about implant surgery which causes this
>skepticism?

>I am not challenging you, merely needing clarification as
>to what is causing this incertitude.

Hi, Jim. It's pretty simple:

1) None of the surgeries done so far have been to remove
material from the most frequently reported areas of
implantation, specifically the upper part of the nasal cavity,
the brain, and the eyes. (Please don't take this as a suggestion
that such surgery is desirable - what's being done now is bad
enough).

2) All of the implants have been removed from extremities or
near skin areas which are highly prone to the incorporation of
natural or normal / artificial material from the mundane
environment.

3) Evidence handling protocols have apparently not been followed
with regard to the extracted material, at least according to
press reports. In short, the integrity of the removed material
from removal through analysis has not been ensured.

4) Removed materials seem largely to be indistinguishable from
normal biological materials or conventional environmental debris
(splinters, rock fragments, metal, etc).

5) Removed materials have not been compared with known normal
debris removed from non-abductees. These control samples would
be essential to demonstrating an extraordinary origin for any of
the material.

I hope this successfully clarifies my concerns.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------





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   Dec > Dec 16

                          Re: Abduction of Blacks?

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:11:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:51:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction of Blacks?

>Date: 14 Dec 1998 17:13:04 -0600
>From: Stephen Lewis <stephen.lewis@tsl.state.tx.us>
>Subject: UFO UpDates: Re: Abduction of Blacks?
>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>

>I am still looking for the earliest suggestion of the above.

>But the most interesting bit which I knew was on this video was
>CUFOS archivist George Eberhart stating that, tho' there were
>European abduction type cases, these generally featured the
>Nordic Space Brother types instead of the standard gray. He went
>on to say that this was generally "swept under the rug" that
>there was a geographic characteristic to the types of humanoids
>reported by close encounter / abduction witnesses. This
>geographic breakdown was as I had previously stated: North
>American Gray, European Blonde/Nordic Space Brother, and the
>South American Hairy Dwarf types.

>So I ask again, is anyone on this list familiar with this
>observation and where is the first/earliest noting of same?

I believe the Lorenzens, or possibly Fontes, made this
observation, and the special issue of FSR (The Humanoids) also
contains some similar comments.

However, one must be very cautious about this. There are a
number of hairy dwarf reports from France, for instance. Also,
"greys" per se seem to be inconsistently present in
non-abduction reports, but do not, at least in my reading,
represent a majority of CE-III reports from any country,
including the US.

Finally, we must be cautious in that CE-III reports are among
the most terrifying of UFO encounters, and the reports of the
entities observed may well be colored by the fear experienced by
the witness. Also, since we do not know about the entities
degree and style of clothing, it is possible that some of these
reports are misinterpretations of clothing features as physical
features.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------





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   Dec > Dec 16

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:34:29 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:56:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:19:02 PST

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 22:42:56 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>>Hello, List!

>>Some time ago, I posted the beginning of this thread (see
>>archives) as a starting point for a discussion regarding
>>abductions and the reasons why ETs bother returning victims,
>>erasing their memories and, further, how ETs observe humans on a
>>day to day basis. Considering the previous amount of discussion
>>on this list regarding abduction experiences, both first hand
>>and second hand, I thought this subject ripe for exploration.

>>While I got two short bites, basically this thread is dead!

>I must have missed your original post. What were your ideas in
>this regard?

>For me: I don't believe the abductions have happened in the
>first place so the rest becomes redundant.

>How's that for a stirring starter?

>Regards,
>Leanne  ];-)


Hello Leanne, List, other entities lurking,

Leanne, I would like to hear (read: "read") your views on the
subject of abductions.  What leads you to believe that the
phenom doesn't exist.

Is it that you do not believe in life beyond earth? Or, perhaps
you do not believe such a phenom is possible at all!?  Do you
believe that aliens have visited us?  Or do you believe this
too, is a figment of an overactive imagination.  Perhaps that
morsel of undigested beef.

Do you believe in UFOs to the extent that they do or do not
exist? A key question I would ask you is, "Do you believe that
the abductee believes he or she was abducted?"  I refer to those
whose credibility you respect.

Obviously there are reasons which you can apply which
demonstrate your belief system, what might those be?

Jim Mortellaro






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   Dec > Dec 16

                       Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:06:06 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:00:58 -0500
Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:00:35 -0500
>Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:57:10 -0500
>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

>Yes, and Donald Menzel, in his first book ('Flying
>Saucers',1953), called this the best case (between 1947 and
>1953). He then went on to distort the information sufficiently
>that he was able to propose the UFO was actually a mirage of the
>balloon. Had be been accurate in his description rather than
>Clintonesque any intelligent reader would have realized that his
>explanation was unphysical garbage.

I am also very suspicious of this new explanation for the
sighting as a meteor fireball that grazed the atmosphere then
skipped out.  Such things do happen, but several details of the
sighting do not seem to match at all.

The most complete description I've found is in NICAP's "The UFO
Evidence," pages 2-3.  This was quoted directly from a book by
J. Gordon Vaeth (Moore's supervisor) titled "200 Miles Up -- The
Conquest of the Upper Air," 1956.   I will also refer to
portions of Dr. James McDonald's description in his testimony
before a Congressional committee in 1968.

1.  The sighting lasted about 60 seconds (timed with a
stopwatch).

COMMENTS:  I know of no verified meteor fireball sighting of
this length, though such durations may be possible.  Perhaps the
best-documented long- duration fireball sighting was one that
passed over the Rocky Mountain area of the northern U.S. in 1973
in broad daylight, seemed to skim the atmosphere before
disappearing, was seen by thousands, was captured on movie film,
and was in sight for about half a minute.   Prominent features
of this sighting were the flaming appearance with debris
sputtering off and a very prominent smoke trail, which among
other things, seems to have drawn the attention of many, many
people.  This brings us to a second feature of the Moore
sighting which just does not match a meteor fireball.

2.  "It left no vapor trail or exhaust."

COMMENT:  A skipping meteor fireball as in 1973 would have left
a very prominent trail.  This object had nothing like this.  The
absence of this feature alone would rule out a meteor fireball.
Also seemingly missing  are the reports of other eyewitnesses
other than the balloon team.  Although the area of the sighting
is very sparsely populated, in a duration of 60 seconds the
object would have covered hundreds of miles if it was a skipping
meteor fireball.  It should have drawn the attention of others
if it was a major meteor fireball, with a very prominent smoke
trail, sputtering debris, and a bright glowing appearance.  But
nothing like that was reported.

3.  "The object was an ellipsoid about 2-1/2 times as long as it
was wide.  It had a length of about .02 degrees subtended angle
and was gleaming white in color.  It did not have metallic or
reflected shine.  Toward the underside near the tail, the
gleaming white became a light yellow.  The object, readily
visible to the naked eye and seen by all the members of the
group, filled the field of the theodolite's 25 power scope.  Its
rapid movement, unfortunately, prevented Moore from  obtained a
hard or clear focus, and no good detail was observable."

COMMENT:  What I see here is a description of an object of
well-defined shape. I would also expect this object to appear
substantially brighter and larger than reported if it was a
meteor fireball.  Remember, this object was in sight for a
minute, implying substantial mass and size if it was a meteor
able to survive passage through the atmosphere then disappear
again into space as it skipped out.  But again, there are no
descriptions of what we would expect from a large, long-duration
meteor fireball, namely a very bright fireball but variable
appearance as it burned and threw off chunks of molten debris.
And of course, no smoke trail of any kind.

4.  Variable trajectory.  Moore initially spotted the object in
the SSW at azimuth 210 and elevation 45 degrees initially
"moving east at a rate of 5 degrees of azimuth change per
second.  ... The azimuth angle decreased as the object continued
on a north heading.  ...Becoming smaller in size it moved to an
azimuth reading of 20 degrees to 25 degrees, at which point the
azimuth held constant.  Coincidentally with this constant
azimuth, the elevation angle suddenly increased from 25 degrees
minumum to 29 degrees, at which point the object was lost from
sight.  It disappeared in a sharp climb..."

McDonald said he spoke to Moore directly, and Moore reported
tracking it with the theodolite as it sped fom the southwest to
the northeast at a maximum of 5 degrees per second at its
closest approach.  Its angular elevation began to increase just
before they lost sight of it in the distance.

COMMENTS:  The details of the trajectory are not absolutely
clear, but in Vaeth's description, the object appears to have
been heading  eastward at first, then took a more northerly
trajectory.  This would not be a ballistic trajectory expected
of a meteor.  McDonald's description, however, seems to place
the object on a straight northeasterly trajectory, which would
be consistent with a passive object like a meteor.  At the end
of the sighting, however, it suddenly and rapidly rose in
elevation, a point McDonald thought was "quite significant."
The sudden rise at the end seems much too sharp to have been a
meteor skipping off the atmosphere.

5.  Speed.  Although not covered in Vaeth's or McDonald's
comments, we know from other sources that Moore and his group
estimated the speed at 18,000 to 25,000 mph based on their
theodolite readings and estimates of distance. E.g., if we were
to assume a meteor skimming the outer atmosphere at an altitude
of 60 miles and flying 5 degrees per second, it would also be
travelling at a rate of 5 miles per second or 18,000 mph.  If it
were 80 miles up, it would be traveling 24,000 mph.

COMMENTS:  This seems much too slow for a meteor, whose lower
end for speed is around 35,000 mph, but is generally much
higher.

So a quick summary of details that work against a meteor
hypothesis is exceptionally long duration, absence of trail and
expected sputtering debris, small apparent size with
well-defined constant shape, lack of brilliance, sudden change
in trajectory, and relatively low speed.

One final note is the fact that nobody before has ever
considered a meteor as a possible explanation for the sighting.
This included the witnesses, all exceptionally experienced sky
observers.  McDonald was an astronomer and one of the world
authorities in atmospheric physics, yet a meteor explanation
never entered his mind.  Most significant, however, is the fact
that Menzel himself, a major 20th century astronomer, never
advanced a meteor theory, although it would have been a natural
one for an experienced debunker like Menzel to consider.  But
obviously even he thought it indefensible.  Instead he dragged
out his standard "atmospheric lens" explanation, claiming Moore
et al saw a mirage of one of their own balloons.  McDonald
called Menzel's explanation scientific garbage and said, "It
would be interesting to hear Menzel present a quantitative
defense of that astonishing disposition..."


David Rudiak





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   Dec > Dec 16

                       Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:05:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:05:18 -0500
Subject: Abductions: Return to the Herd


After reading Leanne Martin's reply and, at the suggestion of
ebk, I'm reposting the following thread. Perhaps it was
overlooked earlier; the response was pretty dismal (though I
appreciate the two who did reply). On the other hand, perhaps it
just doesn't float anybody's boat!

Here goes...

NOTE:

The following is _not_ a debate regarding the existence of ET
abductions. I take no position on the veracity of such claims.
And, for the record, let me make it clear that I do not make
light of any abductee's trauma. But, for the sake of bandwidth
(and EBK's sanity), I'd like to confine this discussion to only
those members that believe in even the most remote possibility
that abductions could be real. Thanks...


Hello, list.

Much has been made of the "classic" ET abduction experience;
i.e. loss of time, finding one's self in another location with
no memory of events, etc. For some, encounter groups and
hypnosis help to retrieve some memories, others continue to live
their lives with no answers to the mysteries that haunt them.

However, I'd like to open a discussion regarding an aspect of
abductions that I have yet to see approached. According to much
literature that I've read over the years, reports of abductions
seem to go as far back as the turn of the century; perhaps even
further, depending on the accuracy or interpretations of the
records that were kept about such things. Most abductions seem
to be of the "classic" variety described above. And, of course,
the only reason we have such reports is because the victims were
returned to tell their tell, even though such memories may have
been purposely "erased" by the abductor, only to be retrieved
using measures described earlier.

And this, I think, is the focal point of this discussion.

When humans pull an animal from the herd to be studied, many
times the animal will not be returned. And even if it is not
kept indefinitely, it may not necessarily be returned to exactly
the same spot or, in some cases, even the same herd. The
exception to this might be the study of a social group such as
lions or monkeys where maintaining the structure of the family
or group is also vital to information being gathered.

What has this got to do with ET abductions?

Well, if you consider the intentions of the ETs in question, one
has to ask why they find it important to return the victim at
all. Secondly, why do they find it necessary to erase the
victim's memory? One might suppose that the ET's intentions were
to hide evidence of themselves from humans.

But does this really make sense?

If ETs thought no more of us than we do of cattle, then I doubt
they'd bother returning anyone at all. I mean, why bother?
People vanish all the time without ET involvement; more often,
actually. If they are concerned about discovery, why take the
risk? As far as returning them with "erased" memories; again,
why bother? Certainly, it must be obvious by now that we humans
have methods to deal with such memory retrieval. The very
existence of this discussion should be proof enough to an
eavesdropping ET that "memory" deletion doesn't work!

However if one took the position that, as in the study of
monkeys and lions, it was important to the ETs not to interrupt
the day to day existence of their victims and the rest of the
social group, then such a return makes a bit more sense.

Of course, this begs the question of "how" the ETs observe us,
the "social group". Monitoring of our TV broadcasts would
certainly give them some idea of the human condition (though I'd
hate to think that "Three's Company" stood as the symbol of
human achievement in the cosmos). On the other hand, such
technology has only existed for the last fifty years; radio, not
much longer. Considering that abductions supposedly predate such
things, two disturbing questions come to mind:

1) What did the ET's do to observe us before RF transmissions?
Did they walk among us?

2) If such a technique was employed effectively in the past, why
should we feel that it has been abandoned in favor of the less
accurate monitoring of RF transmissions?

In short, I feel that the age old notion that ET's are being
sneaky just to hide their existence doesn't cut it, anymore.
Obviously, we know they do exist. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure
that 'They' know we know. You know?

Curious what you guys think...

Later,
Roger Evans






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   Dec > Dec 16

                 Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:44:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:22:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help


>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:45:26 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

>>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:39:46 -0800 (PST)
>>From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
>>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

>There's a cruel truth to that 'joke' Roger. Other than an
>abductee who offered to ask his personal physicians if they'd be
>interested, and your suggestion, we haven't heard from a soul.
>Shame. I have other material (other x-rays) that I wanted looked
>at as well as my own. The other set of x-rays has baffled a few
>doctors and one radiologist that I have shown them to. If we
>could get someone (physician) willing to step up to the plate
>(other than another foot doctor) we might start to make a little
>progress. I have always been willing to try to substantiate my
>claims. I just haven't run into anyone (as of yet) who is
>actually doing the work of investigating what material there is
>already available.

Hello John,

A few questions:

What was baffling about those x-rays?

I there a possibility for you to get a medical report on them
(the x-rays).  I understand this is not necessarily some easy
task: the medical profession is always wary about releasing any
stuff to clients.

As for consulting _many_ specialists.  I don't how this works in
the US, but in Canada it is not very difficult to get second,
third, even fourth opinions on a medical situation if you know
what do.  As specialists must be referred to by generalists,
there is no problem to get a paper from your doctor to see
someone - as every one in the chain is getting paid anyway, and
it doesn't cost you a dime, they usually don't care.

Serge Salvaille





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                 Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:58:33 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:05:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request  For Help


>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:45:26 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

>>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:39:46 -0800 (PST)
>>From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
>>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

>>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help
>>>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 13:07:52 -0500

>>>So here's my request. Can anyone here suggest someone? If so,
>>>please e-mail John or me privately. This is potentially a very
>>>important inquiry, and John and I would be grateful for any
>>>help.

>>>One last thought. Ideally, we'd take fresh x-rays, so a doctor
>>>looking at the film would know for sure where the x-rays had
>>>come from. If anyone is in a position to help us do this, I'll
>>>be especially happy.

>>Derrell Simms? <g>

>Hi Roger, hi All,

>There's a cruel truth to that 'joke' Roger. Other than an
>abductee who offered to ask his personal physicians if they'd be
>interested, and your suggestion, we haven't heard from a soul.
>Shame. I have other material (other x-rays) that I wanted looked
>at as well as my own. The other set of x-rays has baffled a few
>doctors and one radiologist that I have shown them to. If we
>could get someone (physician) willing to step up to the plate
>(other than another foot doctor) we might start to make a little
>progress. I have always been willing to try to substantiate my
>claims. I just haven't run into anyone (as of yet) who is
>actually doing the work of investigating what material there is
>already available. Oh there's tons of talk and theories, just no
>one -doing the work!-

<snip>

>I'm here and so are _many_ others if anyone is willing to do the
>investigative work. So far all I see and hear is a ton of
>theories (none of which ever entertain the possibility that we
>may be telling the truth) and lots and lots of jokes. Sorry I
>can't join in the frivolity. What is happening is happening to
>me and my wife and my children. Makes it _real_hard_ for me to
>laugh about it.

>Peace,

>John Velez, Fighter of windmills


Hi John, Greg and List...

I have a theory, John... a theory as to why no one bothers to
take you up on your offer.  It's not a nice theory, though. It's
theory which is quite negative, in fact.  It goes something like
this...

All too many of the so-called "researchers" are interested in
exporting their profound theories because they garner
significantly profound joy in hearing and seeing their words
appear, as if by magic, at the flick of a hot key.  Whether it
makes sense or not is quite irrelevant to the benefits obtained
by this free PR which can be obtained without so much as a
thirty-two cent stamp. This kind of exposure is worth a bloody
fortune, John, as you well know.  But ask one of these maroons
to put up or shut up, guess which they choose.  Eh?

See, too many fail to put their money where their mouth is
because of the profoundly prolific production of poop coming out
of the same orifice which would contain the bucks.  But, aint no
room in there for bucks do to the prolific profundity of poop
therein.

Let's call a spade a spade ... when it comes down to the short
strokes it's coitus interruptous by the loudest of these
"researchers."

The dim bulb of their intellect is not bright enough to see the
truth. In fact, the light surrounding others is not visible to
them.  The only light in their eyes turns up when seeing the
effect of their own words and opinions.  It's the way of it,
John.

I challenge any of those of you who are skeptics to come up with
a doctor or radiologist or both, and the money it takes to get
their reading on John's or others known to us' X-Rays.

I challenge you..... I already did just that, but my sources may
already be suspect by virtue of the fact that I may be one of
those liars you are so fond of maligning.

Interesting it is to me, that those of the _worst_ of you
skeptics are not the Phil Klass's of the world, but those
hangers on who, like chameleons, change colors often enough to
make us believe you are not a lump of dreck on a log, but
rather, a friend.

"I was a friend of Jamis!"

Sound bitter?

Uh Huh.... that'd be because it is bitter.  I am sickened by too
many of you.  However, this is a really good place to sell my
fresh wines.  It's the only reason I stay here, you know.

Jim Mortellaro






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                 Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

From: Diane Lovett <rambld@erols.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:25:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:12:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request  For Help


>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:45:26 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

<snip>

>There's a cruel truth to that 'joke' Roger. Other than an
>abductee who offered to ask his personal physicians if they'd be
>interested, and your suggestion, we haven't heard from a soul.
>Shame. I have other material (other x-rays) that I wanted looked
>at as well as my own. The other set of x-rays has baffled a few
>doctors and one radiologist that I have shown them to. If we
>could get someone (physician) willing to step up to the plate
>(other than another foot doctor) we might start to make a little
>progress. I have always been willing to try to substantiate my
>claims. I just haven't run into anyone (as of yet) who is
>actually doing the work of investigating what material there is
>already available. Oh there's tons of talk and theories, just no
>one -doing the work!-

<snip>

>John Velez, Fighter of windmills


Amen John! I too would be glad to do anything I could to
substantiate what happens to me and my family, but real, solid
help in achieving that simple does not seem to exist.

The very real evidence that exists is just something that folks
don't seem to want to know about, even many who claim to
"believe" seem to vanish into the woodwork when push comes to
shove on this.

Theories and belief systems are just a lot more comfortable to
deal with than hard (and disturbing) reality.

I have become very resigned to the blindness and self imposed
ignorance of my species. We will all see it when it slaps us in
the face, and not before.

In the meantime you and I and other abductees just have to cope
with this battle as best we can, all the while watching eagerly
to see those occasional  glimmers of courage among our fellow
humans that make us feel a little less alone in this.

Diane





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   Dec > Dec 17

                                The Tex-Files

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:00:40 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:19:05 -0500
Subject: The Tex-Files


Hello, list...

Ran across a funny website recently. Seems a gent owns a dog
named "Tejas". Apparently, the owner of "Tejas" is also an
"X-Files" fan. Through the very clever manipulation of photos
from the show, "Tejas" now takes the place of Mulder in scenes
from the series.

The site can be found at:

home.earthlink.net/~noblegraphic/tex

It should be noted that there is no "www." prior to the URL.

Enjoy...

Roger Evans






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                 Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:09:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:21:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help


>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:44:35 -0500
>Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:22:36 -0500
>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

Previously, Serge asked:

>Is there a possibility for you to get a medical report on them
>(the x-rays).  I understand this is not necessarily some easy
>task: the medical profession is always wary about releasing any
>stuff to clients.

>As for consulting _many_ specialists.  I don't how this works in
>the US, but in Canada it is not very difficult to get second,
>third, even fourth opinions on a medical situation if you know
>what do.  As specialists must be referred to by generalists,
>there is no problem to get a paper from your doctor to see
>someone - as every one in the chain is getting paid anyway, and
>it doesn't cost you a dime, they usually don't care.

Unfortunately, here in the States, everything having to do with
the medical profession is a pain in the ass. If you don't have
the money, and mostly even if you do, a doctor won't give you
the time of day much less any "free" opinions. In fact, the only
opinion they have is that they need to charge you more.

Come to think of it, THAT opinion will cost you $40.00.

Please pay the receptionist on the way out. NEXT!

Take care,
Roger Evans





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                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:18:00 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:25:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:05:05 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>After reading Leanne Martin's reply and, at the suggestion of
>ebk, I'm reposting the following thread. Perhaps it was
>overlooked earlier; the response was pretty dismal (though I
>appreciate the two who did reply). On the other hand, perhaps it
>just doesn't float anybody's boat!

<snip>

>Well, if you consider the intentions of the ETs in question, one
>has to ask why they find it important to return the victim at
>all. Secondly, why do they find it necessary to erase the
>victim's memory? One might suppose that the ET's intentions were
>to hide evidence of themselves from humans.

>But does this really make sense?

All right, since we're dealing in wild speculation here, here's
a possibility:  assume for the sake of argument that the ETs are
trying to slowly evolve a former colony of monkees into a
civilization advanced enough to take its place among other
galactic races (ignore asking why they might do this; just
assume they are).  Then they have to keep us culturally stable
until we can appreciate our situation without collapsing as a
culture.  Flying around taking people at will, and leaving
bizarre memories in thousands of folk, is clearly not conducive
to keeping our still-primitive culture stable while they
continue to evolve us.  Besides, we might even object to being
evolved by them.  The "experiment" would be botched before it
gelled.

If this sounds too far out, please see Linda Moulton Howe's new
book, "Glimpses of Other Realities; Vol II: High Strangeness". A
variant of this selfsame scenario emerges from the evidence she
presents (whether you believe her evidence is an entirely
different matter of course).  The only difference, as I recall,
is that her line of evidence suggests that we, the experiment,
are sort of the result of a "bet" between two advanced races as
to whether it is even possible to evolve such a lowly species to
a point acceptable to the extant galactic community. (How does
it feel to be here as a result of a bet?!  Think such knowledge
would make for a stable society here?  I doubt it :-)

Well, for what its worth, there's an entirely ad hoc answer for
your question.  Given the evidence, its as good as any other I
suppose.

Onward through the fog,

   -Brian Cuthbertson






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                     Expert: "Saucer-Shape Ideal For..."

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:25:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:28:33 -0500
Subject: Expert: "Saucer-Shape Ideal For..."


Source: Skunk Works mailing list, December 16. URL:

http://www.ufomind.com/military/aircraft/skunkworks/mailing/msg01761.sht
ml

Stig

*******

Skunk Works Mailing List

Flying Saucer (On Topic!)

From: "Frank Markus"
Subject: Flying Saucer (On Topic!)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:32:09 -0500

The December 1998 issue of "Air International" magazine includes
(at p.344) an article called "Plasma Balls and Fire Sheaths"
that discusses work being done at Rensselaer Polytechnic
Institute which seeks a means of protecting aircraft flying at
30,000 kts from atmospheric heating.

After discussion of the technology of heat shields, Dr. David
Baker, moves to an explanation of the new work which uses a
projecting spike that generates an electric arc spike (a plasma)
to move the shock wave sufficiently forward so that a hypersonic
vehicle is sheltered in a cooler area behind it (the shock
wave).

He moves on to a discussion of the shape hypersonic vehicles for
reentry and sustained atmospheric flight. This lead him to the
conclusion that the ideal vehicle would be a lens shaped vehicle
with a plasma spike. This shape would, he suggests, be able to
adapt to the various  aerodynamic (and thermodynamic)
requirements by changing its angle of attack while still keeping
its (plasma torch) spike poking forward to generate a protective
shock wave.

The best shape seems to be (alas!) a disk, a veritable flying
saucer. Happily, his discussion is entirely limited to
terrestrial technology.

I hope that others with a better technological grounding will
read this article and comment on it. To me, the arguments
presented in the article were impressive - but far too technical
for me to judge. I also hope that the discussion will focus on
the domestic technology issues rather than on erstwhile
extraterrestrial vehicles.



This site is supported by the Research Center Bookstore.
Please visit our catalog if you appreciate our free web services.

Created: Wed Dec 16 06:55:28 EST 1998






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   Dec > Dec 17

                 1996 UFO Crash Off Isle Of Lewis Explained?

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:37:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:32:51 -0500
Subject: 1996 UFO Crash Off Isle Of Lewis Explained?


Forwarded from 'alt.ufo.reports'.

Stig

*******

From: newsdesk@iainx.demon.co.uk (Newsdesk)
Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
Subject: Copter found in Atlantic
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 98 00:39:20 GMT
Organization: Atlantic Press Agency UK

by Iain X. Maciver, freelance journalist
18 Bells Road, Stornoway, Isle of Lewis, Western Isles HS1 2RA  Tel
0700 561 8099 (office, home, & mobile)
Fax 0700 561 8090

by Iain Maciver         filed Dec 17, 1998

PART of a military helicopter has been dragged up in nets by a
trawler off the Western Isles of Scotland.

Yet, incredibly, none has been reported missing.

There was speculation last night (WED) that the amazing find,
reported by a French trawler, could explain the UFO seen
plunging into the sea off the Isle of Lewis by several witnesses
two years ago.

The RAF confirmed it had launched an investigation after the
find of a helicopter rotor head with four blades, and part of a
gearbox.

The cluster was dredged up from a depth of 1,000 feet in a
position about 80 miles west of the Butt of Lewis.

It has emerged that the trawler, the Albert Granet, was last
night believed to be making for Stornoway with what could be
part of a Westland helicopter.

Only last month, part of the BBC1 programme Mysteries with Carol
Vorderman was devoted to dramatic accounts from witnesses of the
sightings of the plummeting, smoking UFO north-west of the Butt
of Lewis.

The RAF last night insisted: "None of our aircraft is missing."
No helicopters have been reported lost or missing in the area
for decades.

RAF spokesman Craig Lindsay did, however, confirm that serial
numbers from the recovered cluster indicate that it may be from
a helicopter made by Westland.

The twin-engined Westland Lynx, used by many worldwide forces,
is often used in maritime reconnaissance and operates well from
aircraft carriers. It also has four rotor blades.

The RAF spokesman stressed: "We eliminated all aircraft from UK
forces at the time. We even investigated the possibility of
secret testing but we drew a blank."

However, the French trawler's find is bound to add to
speculation that the military know more than they are saying
about the mysterious incident involving the UFO on Saturday,
October 26, 1996, off Ness in the north of Lewis.

Flashes and explosions in the sky were reported by a number of
credible witnesses. There was a large scale military exercise
going on in the sea off Lewis and there were even claims that a
rogue missile had been deliberately destroyed.

A sea and air search covering 1,000 square miles was launched
after the witnesses reported seeing flashes, smoke and hearing
two explosions off the west coast something apparently plunged
into the sea.

It was initially thought obvious that an aircraft had crashed
and police, coastguards and ambulance crews rushed to Ness in
case there were casualties.

An RAF Nimrod aircraft was launched as was Stornoway
Coastguard's helicopter, and an RAF Sea King helicopter from
Lossiemouth. Searches began by a coastguard tug and the
Stornoway lifeboat.

UFO watchers had a field day with astronomers also joining in
claiming there was unusual meteorite activity over the Atlantic
and other parts of the globe. Western Isles MP Calum Macdonald,
now a Scottish Office minister, tabled Parliamentary Questions
to the then Defence Secretary, Michael Portillo.

He demanded to know if the military was responsible for the
incident which sparked off a major air and sea search reported
to have cost in excess of #200,000.

Mr Portillo said there was no evidence the military was in any
way involved. The Royal Artillery Range in Benbecula confirmed
that they had not carried out any test firing that Saturday.

Comparisons were later drawn between the events and the TV
series The X Files.

The RAF at Kinloss assumed responsibility for the incident which
was initially handled by Stornoway Coastguard.

A coastguard insider confirmed the extent and effort put into
the search after the UFO sighting was 'very unusual'. He said
the buzz was that a missile had gone seriously wrong and was
brought down by the military.

"The intensive search was not so much to discover wreckage but
to ensure nothing was ever found," said the source.

Witnesses reported seeing a vapour trail high in the sky and at
least 15 to 20 miles out to the west of the Butt of Lewis. No
wreckage or tell-tale oil spills were ever found.

All sorts of alternative theories were put forward ranging from
lightning, to meteorites and plummeting space junk.

The RAF last night said that the aircraft recovery section at
RAF St Athan in Wales was being briefed. It will probably assume
responsibility for the helicopter parts when the trawler docks,
as expected, in Stornoway today (THU).

ends

--

Iain X. Maciver, News Reporter
Tel 0700 561 8099
Fax 0700 561 8090  iainx@reporters.net






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                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:48:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:36:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:05:05 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>After reading Leanne Martin's reply and, at the suggestion of
>ebk, I'm reposting the following thread. Perhaps it was
>overlooked earlier; the response was pretty dismal (though I
>appreciate the two who did reply). ell, if you consider the
intentions of the ETs in question, one
>has to ask why they find it important to return the victim at
>all. Secondly, why do they find it necessary to erase the
>victim's memory? One might suppose that the ET's intentions were
>to hide evidence of themselves from humans.

>But does this really make sense?

>If ETs thought no more of us than we do of cattle, then I doubt
>they'd bother returning anyone at all. I mean, why bother?
>People vanish all the time without ET involvement; more often,
>actually. If they are concerned about discovery, why take the
>risk? As far as returning them with "erased" memories; again,
>why bother? Certainly, it must be obvious by now that we humans
>have methods to deal with such memory retrieval.

Roger,

The Hopkins-Jacobs scenario can answer your first question.
(Note to forestall pointless debate: I'm not, repeat not,
suggesting that this is evidence that the scenario is real. This
entire discussion is hypothetical.) If the abduction beings need
our participation in their project -- to provide sperm and eggs
for breeding hybrids, to hold and nurture the hybrids in
infancy, etc., etc., etc. -- then they might need us in our
intact, normal, earthly state. Remember that the hybrid babies
are reported to be sickly.

Then there's the family connection among abductees. Supposedly
the aliens abduct people along genetic lines. If you're an
abductee, then, supposedly, your parents and children probably
are abductees, too. I'm not going to imagine reasons why the
abductors might do this, but if they really do proceed this way,
then clearly they need us right where we are, abductees and all.

As for why they try to hide evidence that they're here...think
about it. We may be talking about them, but we don't even agree
among ourselves that they're here. And the world at large agrees
even less. If this is all really taking place, and has been
since the turn of the century, then the scheme to hide memories
of it has worked very well. The aliens have had nearly a century
to work their will with no interference at all. Even now there's
no serious attempt to stop them. Maybe -- and please, people,
remember that this all this is hypothetical -- the abductors
would realize they can't hide themselves forever, but their
memory-blurring scheme has certainly bought them plenty of time.

Greg Sandow






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               NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out

From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:54:30 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:53:05 -0500
Subject: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out



Dear CAUS Members:

CAUS thanks Robert A.M. Stephens; [sti3818@montana.com]
Contractor, NASA Shuttle Documentation Program; Stillwater
Mills; 406-745-3818 KSC-PIB/PA-code MSF/shuttle, for these
reports:

---

1) In one e-mail Mr. Stephens writes:

1.   Over 40 years there has been documented over 1.3 million
implants worldwide of unknown construct. This is vexing for not
just NASA but government too--all agencies, everybody.

2.  There are now over 100 sightings of unknown craft in Earth
space per day, worldwide.

3.  (NORAD)/Fence shows no intruder assessment for the Turret
Peak issue for 12-7-1998.  However, on 12-4-1998, Fence picked
up a 'Gray' (unknown intruder) over the Shander Sugar plantation
in western Cuba for 1 hour, witnessed by dozens, and then the
intruder fled.

What is there, NORAD/Fence WILL pick up. (Being asked to report
on the Montana UFO [my first reporting of this nature]),
divulged NORAD/Fence number 117,443, which confirmed this thing
was, in fact, in our space. However, I have not seen it but over
600+ witnesses here in our valley floor have. Due to cloud
cover, the anomaly has not been seen visually since.

2) In another e-mail, Mr. Stephens tells us about the 16 close
calls since the first launch of a shuttle, Orbiter Columbia on
April 21, 1981. These exclude the most recent events.

They are: (all flights numbered by launch count, not the old
NASA numbering system up to STS-41D, which would have been
STS-12 (NASA 'DID' not want to use the number '13' and still
won't since Apollo 13 did what it did))---I 'can' attest to this
odd fact: [Robert A.M. Stephens]. No '13'.

1.  STS-1  Shuttle Columbia, maiden flight for it and the
shuttle program, when arriving into orbital insertion, it was
discovered many many missing tiles on the OMs pods--both sides.
These were on the upper surfaces of the orbiter. If they had
been on the shuttle's underside, Columbia would have burned up
on reentry. ***

2.  STS-4  Shuttle Columbia lost four 'batches' of tiles on the
way up in space on the right and left OMS pods. Had more tiles
been torn off, Columbia would have burned in near space upon
reentry.

3.  STS-10  Shuttle Challenger aborted at T-3 seconds after main
engines were firing. Shuttle stack could have exploded on PAD

4.  STS-12  Shuttle Discovery aborted at T-4 seconds with a
faulty fuel feed sensor. It was never determined, oddly, what
the real problem was. Discovery went on fly successfully on
August 24th, 1984.

5.  STS-14  Challenger experienced a near catastrophic burn
through of main engine number 2, 94 seconds into flight. This
was a criticality one item---meaning, a failure of 'Crit-1
Items'* means loss of vehicle, mission and crew.

6.  STS-16  Discovery had many missing tiles on the right OMS
Pod it was discovered after it reached orbit. Any of which could
have caused the shuttle to burn through had they been missing
from the shuttle's underside.

7.  STS-17  Shuttle Challenger aborted again at T-6 seconds.
Faulty fuel line feed system sensor.

8.  STS-20  Shuttle Discovery experienced another burn through
as Challenger had earlier on main engine number 1. Failure could
have been loss of vehicle, mission and crew.

9.  STS-22  Shuttle Columbia experienced a severe 'Crit-1'
shutdown of two APUs after orbital insertion. Mission duration
was aborted and shuttle brought back after only three days of a
14 day mission.

10.  STS-23  Challenger began sending back 'Crit-1' shutdowns
and warnings after only 40 seconds of flight. Everything was
shutting down, or threatening to do so. As the tense minutes
unfolded as the shuttle climbed higher, the sensors kept
announcing that everything was failing on the orbiter. Both KSC
and JSC stayed in the 'loop' not just JSC who oversees mission
management after the 'bird' clears the tower. The seconds rolled
on.

A sharp young woman, a technical launch engineer, had enough of
her feminine side intact--her 'intuition', to decide that in
fact, Challenger was 'lying' to everyone. She then, without
consulting anyone else, manually overrode ALL shuttle warning
downlinks forcing Challenger to fly on up into orbit on its own
anyway. After orbital insertion, it was discovered she was
correct in every way: It was a software problem. In fact,
everything on the orbiter was perfect. But it is THE MOST hair
raising launch event of all time for NASA's history of space
flight.

11.  STS-24  Discovery had 22 of its 54 RSC system motors become
non functional after orbital insertion. Orbiter could have been
marooned in space had not the redundancy of software protocols
been installed since STS-23.

12.  STS-25  Challenger. Loss of vehicle, mission, and crew.

13.  STS 32  Atlantis. DoD mission. Failure of the OMS pressure
pod sensors could have resulted in a ATO--Abort to Orbit.
Another words, the launch was a failure but the orbiter has
passed ATE (Abort to Earth) parameters, and thus, 'aborts' by
going on up into space and orbital insertion.

14.  STS-42  Atlantis. It is discovered at T+14 minutes that
several of the huge hardware bolts on the pad holding the
orbiter stack in place before launch are flawed.

15.  STS-50  Endeavor. Anomalous events of unknown origin came
to visit the shuttle in flight. All data has been turned over to
the NRO. Cause: unknown by NASA at this time. NRO will not brief
NASA at this time.

16.  STS-66  Discovery. Shuttle suffered several 'Crit-1'
warning for failure calls after orbital insertion regarding the
RCS.

Addenda: on 13 of the first 25 shuttle launches and flights, the
Morton Thiokol built solid rocket boosters had potential
catastrophic burn throughs in the casings at field joints, which
ultimately destroyed Challenger. Inexplicably, for reasons I
still cannot fathom, my beloved NASA 'waived' these potential
failures and flew the orbiter stack anyway. Many protested,
myself included. Those responsible with this heinous act are no
longer with the agency, thank goodness.

*  'Crit-1' or Criticality -1 items: there are 700 of these
items on board the shuttle and its stack as it sits on the pad
before launch and after launch. A failure of any one of these
items will result in loss of vehicle, mission, and crew.

***  Few remember this. After STS-1 got into orbit and several
tiles were missing on both the right and left OMS pods, which
could be seen clearly on camera and through the rear cargo
bay-crew module cabin, and reported by crewman Bob Crippen and
John Young.  The question was,  were the even more critical
tiles on the shuttle's underside missing too. There was no way
to find out. On national news NASA asked everyone with a
telescope to look up and find the orbiter and see if they could
see anything. They asked everyone, anywhere, all people, all
nations, to help. Nothing.

On the third day of the flight NASA at JSC received a 'secret'
message, the equivalent of modern day emails, from the Navy and
Air Force with a clear photograph of the underside of Columbia
in space: all tiles were in place, perfect. It was never
divulged 'how' those photos were taken---they would not tell us
at NASA! Those of us on the 'inside' found out, however,with a
little bit of sneakiness. (Proof again, NASA does not know what
the military is doing 99.99% of the time)

The NAVY and the AF with the NRO had moved one of the pre-Silver
Veil look down satellites, down to low Earth orbit. From a
distance of 1100 nautical miles away from Columbia--so the crew
wouldn't see the 'bogey'. They then secretly took clear pictures
of the shuttle's underbelly. And Behold, all was fine and well.
Rascals, them.

Think about this when there are ones that talk about secret UFO
landings. Not so fast. Nothing can get through the NORAD/Fence.
Period. This was public news for many weeks after the successful
launching of America's very first shuttle flight---everyone
pondering how those pictures were taken of the shuttle in space
like that.  But, now you know how the photos were taken---and
how it was divulged that our first true space ship was alright.

---

CAUS in indebted to Mr. Stephens for the vast number of e-mails
and the critical information contained within each one. Mr.
Stephens, in the face of ridicule, criticism and embarrassment,
continues to be a 'signal' of disclosure.

Hope everyone has a revealing Thursday and of CAUS...watch the
skies!

Peter A. Gersten
Director

Be sure to visit the CAUS web site at http://caus.org
To join this mailing list, go to http://caus.org/feedback.htm

To be REMOVED from this mailing list, go to... http://caus.org/remove/

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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 17

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:31:33 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:02:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:19:02 PST

>So sad that you are disappointed :-(

>I must have missed your original post. What were your ideas in
>this regard?

>For me: I don't believe the abductions have happened in the
>first place so the rest becomes redundant.

>How's that for a stirring starter?

>Regards,
>Leanne  ];-)

This is so sad...You don't "believe", abductions happen in the
first place...so sad..

In essence, you have virtually called every woman, or man, who
have had some type horrifing experience, which in some cases has
ended in the person commiting suiside, or being
institutionalized, for many years, a liar! So sad...

It is one thing to have our own _opinions_, but it is another
thing to Post to a public mailing list that you doubt that such
experiences happened.

What does this "belief" have room for?  Have all of these
people simply hallucinated?  Had bad dreams, or nightmares? Are
they out to 'make a name for themselves'?

While I may or may not accept the actuality of abductions, I
will not make such a statment.  I do not feel I have the right
to challange a person's personal statment that they have had
some type of physical experience, since I was not there to
witness what happened.  However, I can research their claims and
then decide, based on what I find out, whether or not it is
possible that what they claim could have happened....that is
totally different than sitting at home and saying:  "I don't
believe..."

If this is all 'brainwashing' by military or CIA, type bureaus,
then they are doing a very good job of it.

If these people are simpy stressed out and have turned to drugs
as a form of escapism, then there are several million such
people around the world practicing this, based on the reports of
numbers of people who allegedly have experienced this event.

REgards, Mike

ICQ#:7508455
(502) 683-6811







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 17

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:32:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:04:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


I wish to thank Jerry Clark for the bit of information
concerning Sherm Larsen's garage where so many NICAP files were
"preserved" for transference to CUFOS.

I have been reliably informed that these NICAP files had been
stripped of selected government and sensitive documents before
the transferral was made to CUFOS.

Today, thanks to Mr. Clark's good work we have a pretty good
idea of who removed those documents.

One of the reasons I post to Updates is because the discussion
generated can sometimes reveal important information, for
instance, the fact that Sherm Larsen is the party that turned
over NICAPs files to CUFOS and that they had been meticulously
cared for, by the same person who probably removed the
government and sensitive documents referred to earlier.

Once again thank you very much Mr. Clark I don't know what I'd
do without you.

Gary

P.S. If the Estimate of the Situation was ever in those files,
now we know who should be at the top of the list of suspects for
removing it.






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   Dec > Dec 17

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:23:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:14:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:34:29 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:19:02 PST

>>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 22:42:56 +0000
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

> What leads you to believe that the
>phenom doesn't exist.

>Is it that you do not believe in life beyond earth? Or, perhaps
>you do not believe such a phenom is possible at all!?  Do you
>believe that aliens have visited us?  Or do you believe this
>too, is a figment of an overactive imagination.  Perhaps that
>morsel of undigested beef.


Jim, Leanne and Roger,

Allow the intrusion.

Reality of the abduction phenomenon?

Not sure, well must be, but rather not think about.  Main
reason: the nature of the data.

With UFOs, it is possible to find some documentation on the most
interesting cases: more than newspaper articles, we get
witnesses, researchers, investigations, sometimes official
correspondence, maybe radar data and... debunking.  The UFO
phenomena is some pretty large collection of evidence which will
interest the truly scientific and artistic mind.  Hard to turn
your back on the story of the millennium.

Like most relatively solid subject, UFOs have their classics to
which you tend to refer to: Keyhoe wrote this... Hynek said
that... some FBI documents mention... a CIA memorandum states...
With all the stuff there is, most readers usually know what
someone is talking about even when - and that is too often very
unfortunate - there are no references in the texts which would
bring them closer to scientific communications.

What about abductions?

There is a big problem with abductions.

I don't go for "extraordinary claims need extraordinary
evidence", but abductions, as UFOs, must be supported in some
way with something else than the ubiquitous "it happened to me".
More than anecdotal evidence must come into view.  We are in
dear need of solid grounds.

How many times have we heard "they have been sticking things up
people's nose"?  Well, where is the "thing"?  If you can't show
it, at least you have to come up with some serious reason why.
(From Clark's UFO book pp. 4-5, 37% of 103 abductions cases in
1987 and 45% of 1700 in 1995 report implant insertion or removal
- my math give me 803 people).

Have fetus removals ever been medically certified?  Is there any
protocol in any hospital for someone claiming to have been
abducted?  What if the position of the FBI on the subject: ain't
kidnapping a federal crime?  Any CIA documents?

We are long due for a more structured approach of the
phenomenon.  Not that this should be an easy task.  And I even
wonder if it his possible.

My first pick would be FOIA and some politician kicking: that
should be a relatively cheap way to have confirmation that it is
being taken seriously by the authorities.

More later, since a bounty will probably be put on my head.

Serge Salvaille






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   Dec > Dec 17

                         The Giant Rock Conventions

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 07:36:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:30:26 -0500
Subject: The Giant Rock Conventions


Source: Fortean Times 118 (out now).

URL: http://www.forteantimes.com:80/artic/118/rock.html

Stig

*******


Gregory Bishop with Kenn Thomas remembers George Van Tassel's
Annual Giant Rock Interplanetary Spacecraft Conventions in the
Mojave Desert in the early 1950s. for 23 years, other worldly
inspired Americans and the great names of contactee ufology
gathered there to commune with Space Beings.

The speaker's makeshift platform stood high against Giant Rock
itself. The interminable preparations came to an end and George
Van Tassel climbed up to speak. Shortly, he was heard to say,
"Yes, we are here. Who am I talking to?"

For several minutes listeners heard only a one-sided
conversation. "NOW who am I talking to? Well, somebody else
keeps butting in! CONFOUND IT, YOU KEEP SWITCHING AROUND ON ME!
Let's settle on who is to do the talking tonight!"

Suddenly, Van Tassel began speaking in a loud, harsh voice which
identified itself as 'Knut'.

"I AM KNUT. I BRING YOU LOVE."

Knut proceeded to tell the assembled party that he was stationed
in a "300 foot supply ship, approximately 200 miles to the
south, and 5260 feet high". When the group stepped outside to
look for this miraculous craft, they were rewarded with nothing
more than the beauty of the desert night and a few shooting
stars.

This typical channelling session at the Giant Rock Spacecraft
Convention in 1958 was recalled by UFO chronicler Gray Barker in
his Gray Barker At Giant Rock (1976). The story of these
open-air conventions near Yucca Valley, in California's Mojave
Desert, is really the story of the American flying saucer
contactee movement. For 23 years =BF from the 1950s through the
late '70s =BF friends of the alien saucerians met and channelled
and sold their wares in the comfortable company of the true
believers. =BF

(Image: George Van Tassel)

George Van Tassel quit his job as an aircraft inspector for
Howard Hughes' Lockheed company. He bought some land in the
desert and leased (from the US Government) an adjacent abandoned
airstrip known as Giant Rock Airport. He planned a simple
retirement at the early age of 37, running a dude ranch and
stopover point for weekend aviators.

This quiet life changed in 1952 when, he claimed, he began to
receive psychic messages from extraterrestrial spaceship
commanders and eventually, on 24 August 1953, he was invited
aboard a UFO piloted by a being called Solganda. A new era had
begun.

Van Tassel's channelling sessions took place in an underground
home, hollowed out from beneath Giant Rock in the early 1930s by
Frank Critzer, a former resident. Critzer was killed in 1942 in
the course of a showdown with local deputies who arrived to
question him about a rumoured affiliation with Nazis. When
Critzer resisted by putting up a barricade, the deputies threw
tear gas canisters into his underground kitchen; unfortunately
it was also where he stored dynamite used for mining ore and he
was blown to pieces.

Critzer's Nazi background never checked out; it was probably the
product of a small-town war-time hysterical reaction to his
German surname. Critzer was a naturalised American immigrant who
had enlisted in the US Merchant Marines between the world wars
and retired to the desert due to chronic asthma. In the early
1940s, he introduced George Van Tassel to the Southern
California desert scene. Bloodstains from his violent death were
still on the walls of his underground hovel when the Van Tassel
family moved onto the property.

The first big gathering took place in 1954 and featured a who's
who of the UFO contact movement, probably the first time so many
of them were ever in one place together. Speakers included Orfeo
Angelucci, Truman Bethurum, Daniel Fry, and George Hunt
Williamson, with informal lectures during the day and
channelling sessions after dark. Speaking from the platform
built against the Rock, the famous and not so famous took turns
describing their contacts with physical and ethereal beings,
vying for the popularity that would increase book sales.

In the case of those who believed in the reality of their
stories, the Giant Rock gatherings offered chance to spread the
'universal love' message of the interplanetary brethren. If any
transcripts or recordings of these talks survive, they remain
jealously guarded by protective hands or the dead. From all
accounts, few speakers at Giant Rock held the view that the
space visitors were malevolent. The weird energies channelled by
the participants formed a tapestry of positive messages from a
growing galactic brotherhood. As Saucer Smear publisher James
Moseley put it: "There was an unwritten rule among the
contactees that was 'never knock the other guy's story' because
he might knock yours. They just pretended to believe each
other."

The 'contactees', as they came to be known, have provided enough
folkloric and psychosocial material to fill several books. They
also laid the groundwork for today's contact community. Van
Tassel provided the first opportunity to establish the public
identity of contactees before their first major public audience.
The 'respectable' UFO organisations of the day invariably
regarded contactees as an annoyance at best and, at worst, a
real danger to serious research. Then, as now, the 'hardware'
theory dominated saucer circles and the contactees' talk of
spiritual messages and meetings with blond humanoids grated on
the nerves of NICAP director Donald Keyhoe, among others, who
denounced their tales with derision.

In 1953, Van Tassel began weekly Friday-night changelings under
the Rock. One of his early contacts, 'Ashtar', later became
something of a superstar on the intergalactic hit parade. He has
been channelled by many others since. In 1955, at the second
convention, speakers included George Hunt Wiliamson, George
Adamski and another new star, former physician Charles Laughead,
who had very likely met Williamson in the intervening year and
begun a lengthy series of changelings in their home base of
Whipple, Arizona. Laughead was the model for 'Dr. Armstrong' in
the seminal psychological study When Prophecy Fails (1956 =BF see
FT117:47) which examined the dynamics of a channelling group
when a prophesied UFO landing did not occur. Laughead was also
instrumental in promoting the activities of Dr. Andrija Puharich
and Uri Geller when they psychically contacted the hawk-headed
alien entity they called 'Spectra'.

(Image: Gray Barker Speaking In 1954)

Despite his association with the likely hoaxer (or at least the
delusional) Adamski =BF he took plaster casts of the supposed
spaceman's footprints after Adamski's claimed first contact in
1952 =BF Williamson appears to have been genuinely convinced of
his contact with space people and produced hundreds of pages of
transcripts from beings with such names as 'Acta', 'Baruch' and
'Ermon'.

Williamson also claimed communications using 'radio telegraphy'
with spaceships from 1952 to 1953, discussed in his book The
Saucers Speak! (1954) but, apparently, tired of this when direct
mental contact seemed more efficient. A Giant Rock survivor
called Reverend Bob Short claims to have discussed some of these
early experiments with Williamson. According to Short, the
messages coming out of ham operator Lyman Streeter's radio
sounded like "a weird sort of Morse code". Rev. Short also
participated in channelling at the early Giant Rock gatherings,
receiving some radio communications himself.

Some contemporary accounts of Giant Rock mention UFO
visitations, but these are little more than the product of the
excited imaginations of the conventioneers. What few photographs
that survive of strange aerial apparitions seen at the desert
site unfortunately appear to be atmospheric or optical
aberrations.

Roger Stockman, owner of a local eatery called the Grubstake
Inn, located a few miles from Giant Rock, saw one of the photos
taken at an early convention: "There was this huge saucer shape
hovering over the crowd in broad daylight but, for some reason,
nobody was looking at it." Perhaps the space men were 'cloaking'
that day, silently observing their flock. Area residents
generally stopped talking about any sightings after Van Tassel's
death.

During his contacts with the Space People, Van Tassel also
received instructions for the construction of a device that was
supposed to restore physical youth to the people of Earth. With
it, fewer life cycles would be needed to acquire moral and
spiritual maturity and those who used it would be empowered to
rejoin the benefactors from beyond. Van Tassel needed only the
money to build it.

Van Tassel's fame spread due to his books: I Rode A Flying
Saucer (1952) and Into This World And Out Again (1956). He
founded the College of Universal Wisdom and began to publish a
monthly magazine called Proceedings. His family provided extra
articles and illustrations and they printed and mailed it to
thousands of subscribers worldwide including the FBI (according
to Bryant and Helen Reeve in their 1958 chronicle of the
contactee movement, Flying Saucer Pilgrimage.) Proceedings also
featured the newest messages from the space brothers and
not-so-subtle pleas for donations.

>From this homespun publicity, money began to pour in daily;
readers sent their offerings into Van Tassel who took them to a
bank in Yucca Valley. Locals remember him "cashing checks from
all these little old ladies" who were fascinated by what they
perceived as the incredible spiritual truths he had revealed. In
a recent radio interview, Bob Beck =BF a UFO researcher and early
Giant Rock attendee=BF once volunteered to help Van Tassel open
some mail which had been piling up for awhile. "There was about
$18,000 in there," he recalled.

Bolstered by this manna of freely-given love offerings, Van
Tassel was able, in 1959, to build a five story-high structure
gleaming bone-white on the desert floor. He called it the
'Integratron'. Following the explicit instructions of his space
friends, he eschewed the use of any metal in its construction.
Working in self-imposed secrecy, he jealously guarded the
building. In one instance, when a few local kids managed to
sneak in at night, Van Tassel "had a fit". Vernette Landers,
whose husband lent his name to the community surrounding the
Integratron, said she sat in a rocking chair in the structure
"for several hours one day. When I came out I felt much better.
It may have been my imagination, but I don't think so."

(Image: The Integratron photographed on 14/06/67 with UFO.)


Looking like an astronomical observatory, the Integratron
remained incomplete at the time of Van Tassel's death in 1978.
It remains on its original construction site, behind three
surrounding fences crowned with barbed wire. James Velazquez, a
San Diego developer bought it in 1979 with plans to turn it into
a disco. For a while in the early 1980s, rumours persisted that
the building was used as a methamphtamine lab and at least two
unsolved murders are tangentially connected to this scenario.
Following a campaign by former Giant Rock Conventioneers, the
Integratron was returned to friendly hands in 1981. It's present
owner, Emile Canning, hosts meetings there, rents it out for
special events, and gives scheduled tours twice a month.

George Van Tassel died in of a heart attack in a hotel room in
Santa Ana, California on 9 February 1978. A space being named
'Lo' channelled George's epitaph: "Birth through Induction,
Death through Short Circuit."

His first wife Eva had passed away in 1975, whereupon he
immediately married a woman named Dorris, a local chiropractor.
Dorris earned the ire of Van Tassel's children and other
followers, who accused her of trying to take over his affairs.
Volunteers at the San Diego-based Borderland Science Research
Associates at the time privately referred to her as "D.O.R.ris"=BF
a reference to Wilhelm Reich's acronym for life-negating Deadly
Orgone Radiation. (The Integratron bore some similarity to
Reich's orgone boxes, envigorating those who sat in them.) Until
her recent death, Dorris lived in a mobile home next to the
Integratron, working on a book about her life with Van Tassel,
and looking furtively out the windows for "government agents"
and assorted Men In Black, sure of their evil designs on her
life.

The largest evil evident at the Rock these days is the
deterioration of the only other remaining artifact from the
glory days =BF the Giant Rock Caf=E9 =BF of which only the tile floor
remains. Bikers and other assorted crazies build fires, shoot
guns and skid tyres on its surface. In a few years, it will be
indistinguishable from the waste that surrounds it. When it
finally disappears, the last reminder that the area once buzzed
with the activities of weekend fliers, hopeful seekers of cosmic
truth, and a singular prophet named George Van Tassel, will be
no more.

Kenn Thomas publishes Steamshovel Press, the conspiracy magazine
whose current issue includes an excerpt from his new book,
Flying Saucers Over Los Angeles. The Steamshovel web site

www.umsl.edu/~skthoma

includes conspiracy news updates and a regular column not
appearing in the newstand magazine. Issues cost $6 postpaid in
the US, add $2 for UK postage from: POB 23715, St. Louis, MO
63121, USA.

The full investigation of this phenomena is featured in Fortean
Times 118.







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 17

                 Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:40:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:40:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:49:03 -0500
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:44:35 -0500

>>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:45:26 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

>>There's a cruel truth to that 'joke' Roger. Other than an
>>abductee who offered to ask his personal physicians if they'd be
>>interested, and your suggestion, we haven't heard from a soul.
>>Shame. I have other material (other x-rays) that I wanted looked
>>at as well as my own. The other set of x-rays has baffled a few
>>doctors and one radiologist that I have shown them to. If we
>>could get someone (physician) willing to step up to the plate
>>(other than another foot doctor) we might start to make a little
>>progress. I have always been willing to try to substantiate my
>>claims. I just haven't run into anyone (as of yet) who is
>>actually doing the work of investigating what material there is
>>already available.


>Hello John,

>A few questions:

>What was baffling about those x-rays?

See for yourself. I have attached a copy of one of the x-rays.
It is not to be reposted/copied/republished in any way, shape,
or form. The individual wishes to remain anonymous and the x-ray
is his private property and a part of his medical record. If
this gets reposted it'll be the last time I share anything of an
evidential nature in this forum.

The x-ray -clearly- shows a cylindrical object (embedded) -in-
the persons spinal column. One of the physicians I showed it to
was my personal family doctor. (Internist) He was clearly
shocked at what he saw and his first comment was, "I have never
seen anything like that. How did that get in there?"

When I told him that the person claims that it was placed there
by "aliens" during an abduction on board a UFO, he asked me if
he could keep them for a couple of weeks so that he could show
them to some collegues at the Hospital he is associated with.
Upon my follow up visit two weeks later he returned them to me
and informed me that everyone he showed them to were stumped. No
one had ever seen anything like it,- they could not explain how
it could have gotten in there without killing or paralysing him-
and none of them knew what the object was. They were all in
accord that the object clearly appeared to be
artificial/manufactured. I asked him if there is anything
similar (hardware) used by surgeons and he told me no. He knows
what all the screws and plates and devices they put into peoples
bodies looks like on an x-ray. They had never seen anything like
it.

I have shown them to two other physicians and one radiologist
that specialises in reading neurological x-rays and they all
said the same thing my doctor said; they'd never seen anything
like it. We have more. There is just no one -reputable/qualified
to take them to for further investigation and analysis. It's
frustrating as hell. I'd like to have the stuff verified one way
or the other just so I can stuff it under the noses of those who
insist that there is -no- physical evidence for abductions.

There is. There's just no one looking at it, reporting on the
findings, cataloging, or doing a detailed and comprehensive
analysis.

No one.

Anywhere in the world!

Amazing.

>I there a possibility for you to get a medical report on them
>(the x-rays).  I understand this is not necessarily some easy
>task: the medical profession is always wary about releasing any
>stuff to clients.

Not for publication. If a reputable/qualified researcher shows
an interest I'm sure the individual in question would be willing
to cooperate.

>As for consulting _many_ specialists.  I don't how this works in
>the US, but in Canada it is not very difficult to get second,
>third, even fourth opinions on a medical situation if you know
>what do.  As specialists must be referred to by generalists,
>there is no problem to get a paper from your doctor to see
>someone - as every one in the chain is getting paid anyway, and
>it doesn't cost you a dime, they usually don't care.

This is America dude! We don't have 'socialized medicine." It
costs me $50 bucks a pop to visit my doctor. If I'm sick and he
prescribes something it could easily add another $50 to $75
bucks onto the tab.

Specialists? They get $150 or more just to look at you! After
tests, an office visit to a "specialist" can cost you $300 or
better. If you're lucky enough to have insurance coverage it's
cheaper but those are the prices man. My last name is "Velez"
not 'Rockefeller!' <G>

Peace,

John Velez, Webmaster IF-AIC

The graphic included in this message is _not_ to be reproduced.

x-ray.gif

________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."





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   Dec > Dec 17

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:52:14 +0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:57:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:05:05 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>Much has been made of the "classic" ET abduction experience;
>i.e. loss of time, finding one's self in another location with
>no memory of events, etc. For some, encounter groups and
>hypnosis help to retrieve some memories, others continue to live
>their lives with no answers to the mysteries that haunt them.

>However, I'd like to open a discussion regarding an aspect of
>abductions that I have yet to see approached. According to much
>literature that I've read over the years, reports of abductions
>seem to go as far back as the turn of the century; perhaps even
>further, depending on the accuracy or interpretations of the
>records that were kept about such things. Most abductions seem
>to be of the "classic" variety described above. And, of course,
>the only reason we have such reports is because the victims were
>returned to tell their tell, even though such memories may have
>been purposely "erased" by the abductor, only to be retrieved
>using measures described earlier.

>And this, I think, is the focal point of this discussion.


Roger,

This discussion poses many questions, I'm sure most of which we
don't have answers for, merely speculation.  And for my
speculation - I believe that perhaps memory retrieval processes
aren't as effective as we are led to believe.  Just to add to
all the questions, is it possible that adbuctees aren't
remembering everything from their experience, only what ETs want
us to remember?

>When humans pull an animal from the herd to be studied, many
>times the animal will not be returned. And even if it is not
>kept indefinitely, it may not necessarily be returned to exactly
>the same spot or, in some cases, even the same herd. The
>exception to this might be the study of a social group such as
>lions or monkeys where maintaining the structure of the family
>or group is also vital to information being gathered.

>What has this got to do with ET abductions?

>Well, if you consider the intentions of the ETs in question, one
>has to ask why they find it important to return the victim at
>all. Secondly, why do they find it necessary to erase the
>victim's memory? One might suppose that the ET's intentions were
>to hide evidence of themselves from humans.


I don't believe ETs treat us the same as we treat animals on our
planet.  We are put back in the same place as was taken (or
nearby) because they are aware of the importance 'place' has in
our society.  If we were all tossed about and relocated to
different countries or continents, this would place a great many
number of lives into choas therefore they could not observe us
in our natural state.  We have much less respect for the animals
of our planet.

<snip>

>However if one took the position that, as in the study of
>monkeys and lions, it was important to the ETs not to interrupt
>the day to day existence of their victims and the rest of the
>social group, then such a return makes a bit more sense.

This is my belief. too.

<snip>

>1) What did the ET's do to observe us before RF transmissions?
>Did they walk among us?


Perhaps when the Earth's population wasn't as large as it is
today (say, a mere century ago) landing on earth and observing
the population up close would have been much easier for them.
Perhaps that is what they used to do, however, with improving
radar and observation technologies, I believe this has increased
their need to remove people from the planet for observation.

>2) If such a technique was employed effectively in the past, why
>should we feel that it has been abandoned in favor of the less
>accurate monitoring of RF transmissions?


As said above our technology is improving, no doubt no where
near as effective as theirs, but  it is becoming increasingly
difficult for them to observe us up close and personal for long
periods of time. Perhaps they have to take what they can get.

>In short, I feel that the age old notion that ET's are being
>sneaky just to hide their existence doesn't cut it, anymore.
>Obviously, we know they do exist. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure
>that 'They' know we know. You know?


Just because we know of their existence doesn't mean anything.
It is the actual contact between us and them that perhaps they
are consistently trying to avoid.  They aren't very good in
being secretive, as you said, we have pictures and videos and
eye-witnesses, the testimonials of abductees etc but to most
humans this still does not prove ETs.  Until they land on a
government building and shake hands with the Prime Minister of
Australia or the Pres. of the US, and it is telecasted live
around the world and validated by all experts and scientists,
will we ever have proof of their existence?  Perhaps they know
most humans will always doublt their existence and count on it
as the most effective way to remain invisible.

>Curious what you guys think...

You know what they say, curiousity killed the Roger, I mean cat.
Thanks for giving me a brain pain :-)


Cheers

Sharon K






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   Dec > Dec 17

                         Abductees: Ethnic Breakdown

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:46:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:00:50 -0500
Subject: Abductees: Ethnic Breakdown


Hi All,

In response to the request for stats on the ethnicity of
abductees I conducted a little internal survey of the membership
of AIC. I only recieved 19 responses but they were interesting
so I thought I'd share them.

13 white/caucasian

2 hispanic

2 black

2 Native Americans! (mixed with other)<----This one caught me by
surprise. I had completely forgotten about Indians! When two of
my members told me that they were (1/2) Native Americans it
just tickled me.

No Asian/Oriental

At the IF groups in NY I have seen a mix of races (including
oriental.) I don't have 'numbers' though, sorry.

Greg Sandow asked Budd and I believe he told Greg that out of
600+ cases he has on file, only (approx) 10 blacks reported
abductions to him.

I hope others respond. I'm interested to see how it all adds up.
I hope this helps in your effort to obtain these statistics. It
needs doing. So little basic research has been done at all, that
the field is virtually wide open. I'm glad to see things getting
done. Glad to be able to contribute.

Peace,





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   Dec > Dec 17

                           Re: UFO Sighted At TUE

From: Andy Denne - A.U.R.A. <aura@telekabel2.nl>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:12:53 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:15:25 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Sighted At TUE


>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: UFO Sighted At TUE
>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:16:01 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:25:46 -0500
>>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: UFO Sighted At TUE

>>Forwarded from alt.ufo.reports. This one kinda reminds me of the
>>Mexico UFO vid.

>>From: jos <josvanr@xs4all.nl>
>>Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
>>Subject: UFO sighted at TUE
>>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:03:27 +0100

>>Recently, a ufo was sighted at the Technical University of
>>Eindhoven.

>>Please give your opinion on the genuineness of these pictures.

>The edge of the object goes off the edge of the picture, which
>is suspicious from a hoax perspective.


Mark, all,

A hoax coming from a technical college...who would've thought of
that ;-)

After I recieved the fisrt Update concerning this alledged
UFO-footage here in Holland, I immediately contacted the person
who's e-mail address was given twice. Untill know we haven't had
an answer nor any kind of reaction back...strange ;)

Of course I'll keep you all updates as soon as we recieve a
reply or any kind of other information on this case. (Although I
wouldn't hold my breath...)

Best Wishes,

Andy Denne
(A.U.R.A.)







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   Dec > Dec 17

                        Triangle Craft over Baghdad?

From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:55:55 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:45:37 -0500
Subject: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?


On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:35:17 Steve wrote:

>Did anyone see the triangle shaped pattern of lights that appeared briefly
>during an attack over Baghdad on the live CNN nightvision video a few
>minutes ago at 3:31 pm PT?
>Steve


I did see a triangular formation of lights very briefly at about
4:55 EST on an NBC-TV news report of the bombing of Baghdad. The
lights were steady and it was a definite and very striking
V-shaped formation like those at Phoenix. It was against a black
night sky and very different than the 'greenish' tracer flare
images of the sky, which did not hold their positions for any
length of time like the V-shaped light formation did. I thought
it was peculiar and tried to find a repeat of that on later
reports so I could tape it, but never saw a replay of it, though
all the other video shots of the bombings were repeated. Perhaps
somebody out there can also confirm this and even possibly might
have a VCR recording of it.

Ignatius
____________________________________

Keeping you informed with the latest UFO and alternative news:
UFOSEEK... For the Source! http://www.ufoseek.org

Complete MJ-12 Documents in JPG Image Format:
http://members.aol.com/ufoseek/mj12.htm





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             Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out

From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:33:47 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:58:30 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out

[Non-Subscriber Post]
PETEY--very good! POST THIS TOO!

>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:53:05 -0500
>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out


>From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:54:30 EST
>To: CAUSupdates@caus.org
>Subject: [CAUS updates] - NASA Contractor Speaks Out!

Petey,

Your post re: 'Shuttle close calls'

Very ****ing good!!!!!!! Now we are getting somewhere. Are you
getting the picture? Keep posting 'ALL' the data and you may
redeem yourself. If you want to add your sideline notes of more
bull**** that's up to you.  Your credibility is about shot
within this 'culture' anyway, so is Hoagy's. You did it
yourself.

Now, the point is: space flight is not subject to mumbo jumbo
bull****. It is precise, it is fundamental, it is highly
_dangerous_!

The only _coverup_ is by the instigation and implementation by you
and Hoagy and the rest.

Keep in mind, Petey-Acitvated, I am a free agent. I can do
anything I do for any nation on Earth. I can also be a military
adviser, since the world loves ex-SEALs, for any nation on
Earth. I have taken NASA apart at times, and I will _never_ work
for civil service and that is why I contract. If you want to see
some real ****, wait until 12-28-1998 when on 'Sightings' I will
talk about STS-51L and everything I know about STS-50.

But unlike every single person in the 'culture' I am the only
one who has 'gotten' involved and work with the very agency you
people make your outrageous claims about, without even a cursory
foundation of facts. I'm not even a 'UFO guy' anyway nor do I
want to be. As soon as the Montana UFO deal come to a close, I'm
oughta here. Meantime, you be honest and post everything---not
just your own demented lies.

And on 1172 UFO pages I have accessed since 10-20-1998, not one,
not one has had one praising thing to say about NASA. Not one!.
Sick people!

A bunch of pathological lying bastards. That's all. Fruitcakes,
basically.

(I say this that since 12-14-1998 I have gotten 2500 mails on
both servers that are 100% representative of people that are
simply outraged at you and Hoagland for your lies. Example:
ORBIT: "We can't find Black Duck Minnesota, however....")

You esteemed ****ers don't even know your own country. I've
gotten countless mails from people even a fruitcake like you
would have
considered 'fringe' material, write me with data like this:

Read This 'Petey':
--------------------------------------

(Excerpted with permission from 'Earth Sex Angel, Planet Gorii')
(forwarded from 'Phyler' (what the **** is a Phyler?--
(sp?)--robert)

"Earthlings,

I take issue with this <Turd Peak Hoagy> and this <Petey> clown
and ORBIT. They are THE coverup. I live in Peterson Minnesota-a
suburb of St. Paul. I grew up in Black Duck and its a real
place. Stupid people. Then, those two took that NASA guy apart
about the ELF radar array up there in Black Duck. Actually its
just south of there. Been there for years. Everyone up there
that works on the small base gets good checks. It'S A Real
Place. Don't Believe Them---They Are Liying To Us.

They are lying weirdoes.

"NO LANDING" is what those two and ORBIT and them other pages
should be saying.

Their claims just went out the window with me and the coven
angels.

(PS:---I'd believe that NASA guy before these two. At least he
knew
where things were)

Earth Sex Angel
Planet Gorii
Sex Goddess Extremis

by ya all!" ----and luv : -)

--------------------------------------

That was the more 'rational' mails I've received. And, I believe, her
assessment is correct.

I'm now going after AOL, sprint, and MCI. Clean up the perjury
**** --defamation ****, folks, or the sites come down. Lawsuits
will come. I will file them with the FCC and AOL and the big
carriers. Post it all, or not at all!


Now, post my 'POST THIS' mail too, you phony sack of ****! _All_ the
facts--this mail too!

Too, there is a very serious issue here. Fence, sightings worldwide,
and ****wits attacked me. Stupid ********.

Do you understand?

Thank you for posting something at least real.  Thank you for getting
some information out there that is actually real!


See you, and its shaping up if nothing changes quickly, alot of
others, in court, honey!

Robert





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                 Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:42:57 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:01:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request  For Help


>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:45:26 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

>>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:39:46 -0800 (PST)
>>From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
>>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

>>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help
>>>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 13:07:52 -0500>

<snip>

>There's a cruel truth to that 'joke' Roger. Other than an
>abductee who offered to ask his personal physicians if they'd be
>interested, and your suggestion, we haven't heard from a soul.
>Shame. I have other material (other x-rays) that I wanted looked
>at as well as my own. The other set of x-rays has baffled a few
>doctors and one radiologist that I have shown them to. If we
>could get someone (physician) willing to step up to the plate
>(other than another foot doctor) we might start to make a little
>progress. I have always been willing to try to substantiate my
>claims. I just haven't run into anyone (as of yet) who is
>actually doing the work of investigating what material there is
>already available. Oh there's tons of talk and theories, just no
>one -doing the work!-

<snip>

Hi John, Roger, Greg and list,

I have contacts at Toronto's Michener Institute For Applied
Medical Sciences (previously known as TIMT) who are willing to
evaluate any X-rays that I provide them.

I plan to show them some new X-rays that have been taken by a
doctor here in Toronto after I return from my Christma/New Year
break. These X-rays are of a patient with a foreign(?) object
who has had UFO related close experiences.

I would be happy to have my contacts (they have trained many of
the R.T.s in radiology here in Canada) examine and report on
anything you send to me.

>Derrel Sims eh! Yeah, funny. Apparently so is any attempt at
>trying to verify anything relating to abduction. Just a big
>joke.

<snip>

Derrel too, I am sure, has his own network of contacts that can
properly evaluate any UFO abduction physical evidence. Although
I have not met Derrel in person, I have assisted in the
evaluation of such physical evidence that he has sent to me this
past year and I admire him as a pioneer who is honestly making a
real effort to collect and have tested any physical evidence
that will allow us to increase our understanding of the UFO
abduction phenomenon.  This is more than I can say about many
others in ufology.  Like all of us, Derrel of course does have
his own opinions and methods which we may not all agree with or
share.

Nick Balaskas







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                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:02:29 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:03:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:05:05 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>[....]

>In short, I feel that the age old notion that ET's are being
>sneaky just to hide their existence doesn't cut it, anymore.
>Obviously, we know they do exist. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure
>that 'They' know we know. You know?

>Curious what you guys think...

Roger,

If you keep abductions within the context of the overall UFO
phenomenon, you'll see the analogy to UFO sightings. Obviously,
the ETs are not being so sneaky with their UFO appearances
(sightings) as to keep them from being known to hardly anyone at
all. No, they've displayed themselves so many times to so many
persons, though usually just to a relatively few individuals at
a time, that those with open minds can perceive the reality of
their existence and presence. Yet their sneakiness in the
sightings category has been sufficient to keep mainstream
science from realizing the UFO reality, and this has kept the
overall level of "belief" from rising much above 50%.

So also with alien abductions. They have left so many clues
behind, in so many abductions, that the open-minded person can
scarcely refute their reality. Yet their use of memory blocks,
screen memories, displays of psychic powers, avoidance usually
of non-abductee witnesses to the events, preference for late
night bedtime timing of their abductions, etc., give cause for
those who cannot accept the reality of what science cannot
explain to not have their world-view outlook (belief system)
shaken. That is, due to the relative scarcity of "hard
evidence," the alien sneakiness supplies crumbs such as these
for negative skeptics to latch onto and complain about, thus
preserving their sanity.

So I attribute such sneakines to a combination of alien
intelligence (ETI) and a favorable level of ethics, though their
ethics seems directed towards society as a whole, not usually to
the individual abductees. That is, they're allowing society many
decades to get used to the technology and psychic powers of ETs
far advanced in evolution over us. However, I can only suspect
that a good many abductees have never been returned, and have
simply been listed as lost persons.

At the same time, the ETs carrying out the abductions no doubt
have multiple reasons of their own for doing so, and these
reasons may be more to the benefit of their own needs than to
ours.

   Jim D.






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   Dec > Dec 18

                 Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

From: Ken Raymond <Rasok@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:28:22 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:59:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help


>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:45:26 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

I'm sure that you've already addressed this concern, but has
your subject -- the one whose x-ray you posted -- had any
subsequent x-rays of the same area? Is it possible that the
image on the x-ray film is an anomaly of a non- physical nature
-- i.e., simply a marred photographic plate or something of that
nature?  By no means am I qualified to assess anything of that
nature; as I'm sure you can tell from my comments above, I have
scant knowledge of x-ray technology.  I am simply wondering if
it is possible for this cylindrical object to be explained in a
more conventional manner.  The provenance of the object should
certainly be established as best it possibly can, and the
simplest place to start is with further x-rays, which would
demonstrate that the image on the film is not simply a glitch of
some sort.  Should the object fail to appear in subsequent
x-rays, I -- for one -- would be much more hesitant to accept
the present x-ray as evidence of any mishap...terrestrial or
otherwise.  If it does appear, however, then further study would
certainly be both merited and fruitful.

I am sure that the most ardent believers would not discount the
present x-ray even if subsequent x-rays reveal nothing.  For
them, it would probably serve as evidence of a continued and
on-going abduction experience.  Perhaps they are right.  For me,
however, faith in anything is elusive, and I adhere to the
notion that the simplest explanation -- i.e., an error in
procedure by an over-worked x-ray technician as opposed to an
alien tracking device or some other abuse of technology -- is
usually the correct one...barring evidence to the contrary.
Subsequent x-rays demonstrating the continued presence of the
object would answer at least some of my concerns.

Additionally, I question the necessity -- at least at this point
-- of having a medical doctor (or two or three) acknowledge in
print that he or she cannot identify what the object is or how
it was implanted.  You have already consulted with a number of
medical professionals who seem stumped by the image on the
x-ray, and they have already stated that it bears no resemblance
to pins or screws or other common terrestrial "implants."  You
have already compiled a list of what it is not.  That being the
case, shouldn't the next step be to attempt to determine as
precisely as possible exactly what the object is?  How can you
do that?  My answer, again, is that I know too little about
medical procedures to make any sensible suggestions.  Perhaps
some sort of imaging system -- possibly an MRI? -- could provide
a better picture of the object, one that does more than provide
a 2-D view.

If the x-ray that you posted is all of the evidence of the
object's existence that you possess, then I am slightly
perplexed by it, but not unduly excited. If you have subsequent
x-rays that demonstrate that the image is indeed both extant and
still in place, then I am much more interested in it.  Perhaps
you have addressed some of this in a previous post; I am rather
new to this list. But if you haven't, then I would urge you to
obtain another set of x-rays -- despite the expense -- ASAP.

That's my two cents.

Ken Raymond





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   Dec > Dec 18

                       Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec

From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:13:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:11:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec


>Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 20:02:21 -0300
>From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec

>>Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 19:45:08 -0500
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec
>>From: Jenifer Migneault <westy@endirect.qc.ca>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Hello and many many thanks to all of you who shared your
>>experiences with me... Let me now tell you about what we saw..
>>I'll try to keep it short!!

><snip>

>Did anybody think to turn these folks onto the Pheonix photos.
>They seem similar. Might be usuful for them to have a look for
>themselves. I'd do it but I don't have the URL for the Tom King
>site.

>Don

Don,

This sighting has been demystified; it was publicity lights of a
new type.

We spoked to the owner of a Bar named 'The Underground', located
in the city of Marieville 20 km S.E of Montreal, which used these
lights for a special event over the weekend.

We at the A.Q.U. have received many sighting reports related to
these lights.

Case closed.

Gilles







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                 Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:23:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:13:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help


>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:49:03 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

<snip>

>There is. There's just no one looking at it, reporting on the
>findings, cataloging, or doing a detailed and comprehensive
>analysis.

>No one.

>Anywhere in the world!

>Amazing.

<snip>

John,

Why not ask Peter Sturrock or the Society of Scientific
Exploration to look at your evidence?  After all, didn't they
say that UFO evidence warrants scientific review???

Contact:

Peter Sturrock at sturrock@flare.stanford.edu (ph. 650-723-1438)

or

Marsha Sims, Executive Editor, Journal of Scientific Exploration
at sims@jse.com (ph. 650-593-8581, fax. 650-595-4466)

to see just how serious they are about this subject.

Terry






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                 Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:24:33 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:18:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help


>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:49:03 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help
>>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:44:35 -0500

>>Hello John,

>>A few questions:

>>What was baffling about those x-rays?


>See for yourself. I have attached a copy of one of the x-rays.
>It is not to be reposted/copied/republished in any way, shape,
>or form. The individual wishes to remain anonymous and the x-ray
>is his private property and a part of his medical record. If
>this gets reposted it'll be the last time I share anything of an
>evidential nature in this forum.

<snip>

Hello John,

Thanks for the x-ray picture. It's clearly a better defined,
symmetric shape than most of them we've seen. But if it were
removed and then the process initiated of sending it out first
to one lab, and then to another after the first says they can't
identify it, etc., not much will be gained. If it's given an
isotopic analysis, the results are unlikely to be disclosed if
they come out anomalous or extraterrestrial, until confirmed by
several other labs, etc. And even then the differences between
analyses, even if within the margin of error, or any aspect of
it that's not understood by the examiners, will be cause for
criticism. And if the implanted abductee insists on staying
anonomous, or is found to have done any shady misdeed in his
life, all that will be held against him. Thus as usual the
findings will not reach the bulk of the public.

It looks like it's implanted too deeply and sensitively for him
to ever wish to have it removed. But if it were, this would be
helpful despite the above pessimistic remarks.

Now, a question. How can you ask that we not re-post the file to
anyone else if you first posted it to us, via the list, without
our permission? Will we need to ask the legal minds on this list
whether your request to not repost, copy or republish it could
be binding? Offhand, it seems to me that your request must
either be tongue-in-cheek or have the "ulterior motive" behind
it of getting  the x-ray.gif file circulated to as many others
as might be interested (reverse psychology). You may wish to
clarify your position on this!

   Jim D.






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                       Re: Abductees: Ethnic Breakdown

From: Thiago Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:16:44 -0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:22:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductees: Ethnic Breakdown


>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:46:13 -0500
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Abductees: Ethnic Breakdown

>In response to the request for stats on the ethnicity of
>abductees I conducted a little internal survey of the membership
>of AIC. I only recieved 19 responses but they were interesting
>so I thought I'd share them.

<snip>

>No Asian/Oriental

See what I said. There's abduciton of blacks, but not too much.

What a surprise...no asian/oriental...


THIAGO LUIZ TICCHETTI
Diretor Do Departamento de Publica=E7=E3o e Tradu=E7=E3o Especializadas
(DEPTE/EBE-ET)
ICQ - 22841973








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   Dec > Dec 18

                      Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?

From: Thiago Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 19:22:45 -0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:30:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?


>From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:55:55 EST
>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Triangle Craft over Baghdad??!

>On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:35:17 Steve wrote:

>>Did anyone see the triangle shaped pattern of lights that
>>appeared briefly during an attack over Baghdad on the live CNN
>>nightvision video a few minutes ago at 3:31 pm PT?

>I did see a triangular formation of lights very briefly at about
>4:55 EST on an NBC-TV news report of the bombing of Baghdad. The
>lights were steady and it was a definite and very striking
>V-shaped formation like those at Phoenix.

<snip>

>Perhaps
>somebody out there can also confirm this and even possibly might
>have a VCR recording of it.


Wait a minute, neither all that we see in the sky is a UFO...
calm down.

I saw the images of the strike against Iraq from CNN, they had a
lot of lights, explosions, missiles...

Could it be a F 117 Stealth, or a SR 71 Blackbrid, or another
crafty????






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                  Re: Glenn Calls Himself A 'UFO Agnostic'

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:05:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:44:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Glenn Calls Himself A 'UFO Agnostic'



>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:21:38 +0100
>Subject: Glenn Calls Himself A 'UFO Agnostic'

<snip>

>Responding to other questions, Glenn said he believed that man
>would get to Mars. He called himself a "UFO agnostic,"
>explaining that he never saw "any little green men or Klingons
>in space."

Reminds me the kind of jokes we made about sex before having any
experience of it: we allegedly new everything!

Of course, every youngster is entitled to make that kind of
joke.  But we usually grow up.

Mr. Glenn? Nah... obviously never reached intellectual puberty.






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                 Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:01:41 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:50:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request  For Help


> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:42:57 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request  For Help

>>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:45:26 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

<snip>

>I would be happy to have my contacts (they have trained many of
>the R.T.s in radiology here in Canada) examine and report on
>anything you send to me.

>Nick Balaskas



Bravo Nick...  You are a mensche disguised as a Greek Warrior.

Now how about some of you self-proclaimed pundits of UFO
psychology.... ?

Hello!
Hello!?

HEEEELLLLLLLOOOOOO!?!?!?

Dr. Gesundt, Wine Docatoor





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                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:06:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:55:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:31:33 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>>For me: I don't believe the abductions have happened in the
>>first place so the rest becomes redundant.

>>How's that for a stirring starter?

>>Regards,
>>Leanne  ];-)

>This is so sad...You don't "believe", abductions happen in the
>first place...so sad..

>In essence, you have virtually called every woman, or man, who
>have had some type horrifing experience, which in some cases has
>ended in the person commiting suiside, or being
>institutionalized, for many years, a liar! So sad...

>It is one thing to have our own _opinions_, but it is another
>thing to Post to a public mailing list that you doubt that such
>experiences happened.


Oh, Michael....please.

Leanne has a right not to believe abductions are real. At the
moment there's no scientific proof of their reality.

Nor does she slander abductees by not believing. She can, for
instance, conclude that they're honestly reporting what they
believe happened, but that they're mistaken.

Some abductees find this difficult to swallow, I know. But they
themselves, many of them, were at first wary of accepting that
their abductions are real. Surely abductees and abduction
believers can understand that abductions are a stretch for many
perfectly sympathetic people -- and that if someone like Leanne
wants to wait for genuine proof, she's not slandering abductees
by doing so.

Greg Sandow






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                      Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?

From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:40:47 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:57:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?


>From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:55:55 EST
>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Triangle Craft over Baghdad??!

>On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:35:17 Steve wrote:

>>Did anyone see the triangle shaped pattern of lights that
>>appeared briefly during an attack over Baghdad on the live CNN
>>nightvision video a few minutes ago at 3:31 pm PT?

>I did see a triangular formation of lights very briefly at about
>4:55 EST on an NBC-TV news report of the bombing of Baghdad. The
>lights were steady and it was a definite and very striking
>V-shaped formation like those at Phoenix. It was against a black
>night sky and very different than the 'greenish' tracer flare
>images of the sky, which did not hold their positions for any
>length of time like the V-shaped light formation did. I thought
>it was peculiar and tried to find a repeat of that on later
>reports so I could tape it, but never saw a replay of it, though
>all the other video shots of the bombings were repeated. Perhaps
>somebody out there can also confirm this and even possibly might
>have a VCR recording of it.


Guys,


I saw the triangle too and recognized it as the tree stars
Deneb, Wega and Altair. The only movement they made was
in relation to the movement of the camera. The relative
positions of the stars matched. I watch the skies very often
with my girlfriend and we have fun remembering the names
of the stars.



            __________________________________________
           /    Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes    \
                      Henny van der Pluijm
                      hvdp@worldonline.nl

                       Technology Pages
                http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp





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                           Re: UFO Sighted At TUE

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:41:23 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:01:37 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Sighted At TUE


>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:25:46 -0500
>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: UFO Sighted At TUE

<snip>

>From: jos <josvanr@xs4all.nl>
>Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
>Subject: UFO sighted at TUE
>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:03:27 +0100

>Recently, a ufo was sighted at the Technical University of
>Eindhoven.

>Photographic evidence can be found at the url

>http://www.dse.nl/~josvanr

>Please give your opinion on the genuineness of these pictures.


The UFO (reminded me of an Adamski version) seems to be lit by
the sun from above and to its RIGHT.  Unfortunately, this same
lighting is not the same for the two distant buildings to the
immediate left of the UFO.

For midday, the rest of the objects in the picture seem to have
been taken under overcast sky conditions since no sharp shadows
are present.  Some brighter buildings(?) in the distance (top
center of the photo) seem to be lit by the sun from the LEFT,
possibly through a break in the cloud cover.

Since this picture seems to have been taken through a window
(see the reflections of some much larger unidentified faint
roundish objects and streaks in the lower left of the photo), I
would suspect that the UFO too is a reflection from inside the
room where the photo was taken from.

At least that is my opinion...

Nick Balaskas




To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?


>From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:55:55 EST
>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Triangle Craft over Baghdad??!

>On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:35:17 Steve wrote:

>>Did anyone see the triangle shaped pattern of lights that
>>appeared briefly during an attack over Baghdad on the live CNN
>>nightvision video a few minutes ago at 3:31 pm PT?

>I did see a triangular formation of lights very briefly at about
>4:55 EST on an NBC-TV news report of the bombing of Baghdad. The
>lights were steady and it was a definite and very striking
>V-shaped formation like those at Phoenix. It was against a black
>night sky and very different than the 'greenish' tracer flare
>images of the sky, which did not hold their positions for any
>length of time like the V-shaped light formation did. I thought
>it was peculiar and tried to find a repeat of that on later
>reports so I could tape it, but never saw a replay of it, though
>all the other video shots of the bombings were repeated. Perhaps
>somebody out there can also confirm this and even possibly might
>have a VCR recording of it.


Guys,


I saw the triangle too and recognized it as the tree stars
Deneb, Wega and Altair. The only movement they made was
in relation to the movement of the camera. The relative
positions of the stars matched. I watch the skies very often
with my girlfriend and we have fun remembering the names
of the stars.



            __________________________________________
           /    Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes    \
                      Henny van der Pluijm
                      hvdp@worldonline.nl

                       Technology Pages
                http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp





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   Dec > Dec 18

                     Paul Devereux Web Site & Conference

From: Stephen Lewis <stephen.lewis@tsl.state.tx.us>
Date: 17 Dec 1998 18:11:57 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:05:40 -0500
Subject: Paul Devereux Web Site & Conference


Source: Paul Devereux's new web site:

http://www.acemake.com/PaulDevereux/

The following conference announcement was from the URL below. I
have found no other notification as to its occuring.

http://www.acemake.com/PaulDevereux/events.html

NEWS OF A VERY SPECIAL AND IMPORTANT EVENT:

"OTHERWORLD REALITY:
Exploring the Ontological Status
of Imaginal Consciousness"

A major conference to be held at The Royal Society of Arts,
London, on 1 & 2 May, 1999. This conference will specifically
address the nature of the mental realm that is implicated in a
wide range of reported human experience, including: visionary
and mystical states; encounters with spirit beings; out-of-body
experiences; the abduction phenomenon; lucid dreaming; the
entities and worlds of hallucinogenic trance; remote viewing;
the mental environments of creative visionaries such as William
Blake. Are these mental states simply the mechanics of the
physical brain? Are they manifestations of the quantum sea? Are
they to be taken literally? Are they representations of another
dimension of reality?

Speakers from diverse disciplines will bring their knowledge to
bear on this question in an original way. The conference will be
plenary in nature, so that it can act as a single organism.
After all the presentations, a special panel will be convened in
order to identify any emergent factors, so that the conference
will act as a research tool in its own right.

Speakers will include:

DANAH ZOHAR
ALAN WORSLEY
JACQUES VALLEE
RICHARD STRASSMAN
RICHARD RUDGLEY
PETER ROJCEWICZ
DEAN RADIN
CHARLES LAUGHLIN
MICHAEL GROSSO
PAUL DEVEREUX

Panel chair: STANLEY KRIPPNER

              Papers:

Michael Grosso -
Paper title: "Death and the City of Imagination:
William Blake and Otherworld Realities"

Charles Laughlin -
Paper title: "Imagination and Reality: On the
Relations Between Myth, Consciousness
and the Quantum Sea"

Dean Radin -
Paper title: "Experimental Evidence for an
Intersubjective Reality"

Peter M. Rojcewicz -
Paper title: "Beware the Physical in the Material:"
Imaginalia, Folk Belief and the Eclipse of the Literal"

Richard Rudgley -
Paper title: "The Ethnography of the Imaginal"

Rick Strassman -
Paper title: "The Experience of 'Entity Contact' in
High Dose DMT Sessions: Context, Content and
Interpretation"

Jacques Vallee -
Paper title pending.

Alan Worsley -
Paper title: "Lucid Encounters in the Imaginal State:
Controlled Explorations in the Realm of the Metachoric"

Danah Zohar -
Paper title pending.

This is the first in a proposed annual series of new-style
conferences being introduced by THE CONSCIOUSNESS CONNECTION, of
which Paul Devereux is a founding member, which has been formed
to promote a greater convergence of thought within the field of
consciousness studies. Each conference will focus on one of the
more neglected questions in consciousness studies, so that
understanding can be moved forward to hopefully create a sum
greater than the parts.

TICKETS: #163#90/ $150. [Bookings after January 31, 1999:
#163#110/$175.] (With seating strictly limited, and preference
being given to 2-day delegates, any 1-day tickets (#163#60/$100)
will only be released close to conference date. If you want to
be on the 1-day ticket waiting list, let us know now, stating
which day.)

The Consciousness Connection:
UK - 2 Godson's Cottages, High St., Lower Brailes,
OX15 5AQ
phone/fax (01608) 685119;

USA - 3 Hidden Spring Lane, Rye, New York 10580,
phone/fax: (914) 967 0322.
Please make cheques/checks payable to:
'The Consciousness Connection'.





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   Dec > Dec 18

                              Blind Abductees?

From: Stephen Lewis <stephen.lewis@tsl.state.tx.us>
Date: 17 Dec 1998 18:13:38 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:10:41 -0500
Subject: Blind Abductees?


Howdy all,

Some years ago Dr Karla Turner requested information about the
possibility of Blind Abductees coming forward with experiences.
I reprinted her request within my own zine and told of my
knowledge of at least two or three ufo "experiencers" locally
who had encounters both before and after losing their sight.

Due to the untimely death of Dr Turner I have never heard any
more about this line of inquiry. I believe she was interested
because of the seeming lack of abductees who were blind from
birth. She was, I believe, intimating a connection between lack
of sight and lack of reports.

As this question goes to the demographics of the phenomena in a
way similar to recent questions about the ethnic demographics of
abductees I thought I would reiterate this call for data.

What do you all think?

SMiles






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                   Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"

From: James Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:54:40 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:15:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"


>From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:08:51 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"

>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:59:15 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"

>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: "Jerome Clark" <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Alevy - "A Response To My Critics"
>>>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 98 11:38:16 PST

>>>The above is quite amusing, of course. The strategy ought to
>>>be familiar with those listfolk who recall America's traumatic
>>>experience in Vietnam. As we were losing the war in the field
>>>and it was clear nothing was going to change in that regard,
>>>the late Vermont Senator George Aiken proposed a solution:
>>>declare victory and go home. That's exactly what Gary is doing
>>>here.

>>Nope, not going to let this pass without a historical comment.
>>Nearly every historian now agrees that we were winning the war
>>in the field. Those reporting on TET now concede that it was an
>>American victory because the VC ceased to exist as a force after
>>TET was over.

>>Sorry, but it was the the negotiations held to "end" the war
>>that changed what was obvious to those in the field to a
>>"defeat" for the American side. Read the recent histories, even
>>those written from the communist perspective.

>Double nope, can't let this pass. The reality of Vietnam was
>never winning the war in the field - something our military
>could have done at any time with sufficient application of
>force. America lost the war on the moral ground.

>In that regard, the government of the United States, or at least
>significant elements, have lessons still to learn. As regards
>the matter of extraterrestrials, UFOs and the application of
>intelligence measures in the field of American life, the
>cover-up is likewise failing on moral grounds.

>While the House Judiciary Committee makes a fool of itself
>attempting to delineate the framework of moral government around
>matters of sex and defense of private sex - the Secret Empire,
>the intelligence wing of the military industrial complex,
>disembowels the American Constitution and treats citizens as
>children, or worse, tolerated fools interfering in the waging of
>secrecy.

>If the proper checks and balances, wisely provided by the
>founders, had operated as they should since 1947, Vietnam would
>have never occurred and the study of extraterrestrial phenomena,
>even perhaps extraterrestrial diplomacy, would now be taught in
>every university in the land.

>Governments thrive on power, acquiescence, misdirection and
>coercion, or at least they do to the extent that citizens
>permit. In the matter of Vietnam citizens ended an abuse of
>power. In the matter of the government cover-up of first hand
>knowledge of the extraterrestrial presence, they will do the
>same.

Thank you Sir, you made my day.

Steve, you hit the nail right on, brother. I wish the hell I
wrote those words. I am proud of you for saying them. Errol, you
can, if you choose, post this on UPDATES. However I am sending
it to Steve in any case.

We citizens have forgotten that in a democracy, the voices of
the politicians' consituency must be heard or the bastards are
going to govern by thier own agendas, agendas which rarely
include us (US).

For reasons beyond just a few, people in this country have given
up their rights and assigned them to their elected officials.
Big mistake. I am presently fighting a battle to get people to
hear the message ... the message is that they must become active
or activists or they will ultimately lose the freedoms and
rights which our Founders bestowed upon them. I am starting at
the college level, giving presentations to these future
citizens, lessons which demonstrate just how much they have lost
to the establishment.

That word, "Establishment," was very much abused by the Hippy
generation, but the word is usefull and instructive when taken
in the context of present day politics. I hope and I pray that
it is not too late for us. But I have a terrible feeling it just
may be, too late.

Dr. James S. Mortellaro, Jr., Ph.D.






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   Dec > Dec 18

                    Closing of Project Blue Book - NICAP

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:49:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:18:49 -0500
Subject: Closing of Project Blue Book - NICAP


NICAP UFO Investigator / May 1970, p. 3


The Book is Closed
(but who will have the last word)

The Air Force has written the final chapter to its opus on the
unidentified. On December 17, 1969, Air Force Secretary Robert
C. Seamans, Jr. announced closure of Project Blue Book, the
Government's 21-year old investigation of UFOs. "Continuation of
the Project," said Seamans, "cannot be justified either on the
ground of national security or in the interest of science."

With the termination came recision of AF Regulation 80-17, which
provided for Blue Book's operation and related policies on
public information. The regulation was promulgated in September
of 1966 to facilitate Air Force support of the Colorado Project,
which began the following month. AFR 80-17 superseded AFR 200-2,
the old 1953 regulation for the UFO program.

Blue Book's door closed literally at 3:30 p.m. EST on January
30, 1970, the day the Project office at Wright-Patterson Air
Force Base in Ohio was officially manned for the last time. The
famous Blue Book files had already been packed in boxes and
started on their trip south to Air Force archives at Maxwell AFB
in Alabama. Lt.Col. Hector Quintanilla, chief Blue Book officer,
was slated for a transfer assignment at Wright-Patterson until
his retirement from the Air Force in April.

Demise of the Project proved no occasion for nostalgia. Having
long contended that UFOs evidenced no threat to national
defense, the Air Force had privately viewed its UFO assignment
as something of a monkey on the back. Predictably, there was
conjecture that the closure was just one more stratagem in a
cover-up of government attempts to probe the UFO mystery. But
Pentagon officials insisted the Air Force exit was just what it
seemed -- final.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

JC:   As a point of information, Major Keyhoe's retirement at
age 72, 13 years director of NICAP, was announced in the same
issue.


Respectfully submitted,
Jerry Cohen

 Author: Oberg/Cooper rebuttals
Website: http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/
UFOmind: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/people/c/cohen/






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   Dec > Dec 18

             Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:38:16 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:38:38 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out

[Non-Subscriber Post]

UpDates,

I wish to submit the removal of my truculent email 'NASA
Contractor Speaks out.-response' whereby I speak AGAINST Peter
Gersten, Director, CAUS, in that above, on the same page, for
12-17-1998, Mr. Gersten has posted, completely on his own
volition, a very sound, honest, erudite, and kind email update
of my reports, compiled quite well into one coherent posting,
and other released data concerning NASA, UFOs and other topics I
have presented over the last 60 days, many for the first time.

His excellent posting is entitled: "NASA Shuttle Mysteries -
Contractor Speaks Out."

[A familiar 'Subject:' line that originated on UFO UpDates
 on Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:53:05 -0500 and forwarded by me to
 you --ebk]

To this post by Mr. Gersten, I say, "Well done!".

I am not in this 'UFO culture' and it frankly leaves me not only
empty, but deeply angered and hurt at the slander, hate,
falsehoods, lies, allegory, alludings, and general overall
dementia regarding the real issues that are confronting our
nation, its people, and the world, concerning the visitors,
intruders, and the inexplicable events happening to us.

I can say categorically, that in the plethora of lies on nearly
1200 UFO 'sites', there is not one shred of organized truth. The
truth will never be divulged under this protocol. Never. If any
of you were attacked as you have attacked NASA or some of the
other agencies, would you tell the attacker anything. The answer
is no.

A case in point, on one site, 'The Enterprise Mission', I
believe, presents to the public by a Dr. Richard Hoagland, and
hosted by a Mike Bara, states over and over that NASA plots and
executes all unmanned and manned space flights by masonic
symbols and astrological signs, among many other lies.

This is a pathologic lie (intent to due harm with malice). NASA
plots all unmanned and manned space flights by the following:

1.  Algebraic formulas within the field of orbital mechanics.
2.  Locator trajectories based on target intent.

Nothing more and nothing less. Space flight is not subject to
mumbo jumbo.

On still other matters hosted and posted on these and other
sites like, ORBIT, Raven, ELFRAD, Flash RADAR, these liars have
excerpted my postings and emails with phone numbers and contacts
therein, and then gone on to say that 20 year old proven
historical events of radar rings in and around select locations
are somehow some new grand deal to kill us all by NASA and DoD.
These are lies.

Then, they go on to state that I am some 'NASA source' and NASA
is somehow 'scared' of something. NASA nor I are afraid of
anything. I am not a 'source'. I am Robert A.M. Stephens and my
phone number and email address is on the bottom of this mail.
This is as clear and honest as it can be. It is not subject to
further 'assessement'.

This is not 'flaming' anyone, as this online culture refers to
slander. This is a statement of categorical fact that these
sites so mentioned above are trafficking in pathological lies.
It is not subject to further debate. If it continues on the
sites thus mentioned, I myself will sue them all with the FCC
and AOL and the other big carriers of the packet strings on the
pipe (internet). I am a free contractor and if I deem I or NASA
is being slandered I can sue if I so wish. Defamation is serious
business under these circumstances.

They took my posting regarding the submarine contact/ELF station
in Black Duck Minnesota and then posted: "there is no such
place, but in Pissboro Wisconsin there are 400 small creatures
with ray pipes impregnating women by the millions......bla, bla,
bla", or some such pap.

These are lies. Lies, not slander. Lies.  Black Duck, Minnesota
is a small town in the United States of America. True ELF is a
sonar array for communicating with submarines. Period!

On the same 'Enterprise Mission' site and others, including
links on the Art Bell site, there is the ongoing statement that
somehow there was a landing or something in this vein that
occurred on Turret Mountain , Arizona, on the night of December
7th, 1998. This is a lie. Also, some pap about 'critics firing
at big guns over Texas' or some such delusion. No, I am stating
fact: the radar rings are either fakery, or the normal anomaly
of rings appearing around any and all large electrical arrays
throughout the industrialized world where various levels of
'core shielding' is either in effect or not. Thus, off and on,
rings in the scope field results.

NORAD/Fence database shows no intruder for that date or from
12-5-1998 to the current time (12-17-1998) in near or far Earth
space. This is radii from 100,000 miles in all directions from
Earth's surface. The Silver Veil Reconnaissance satellite, which
is part of the 15 year old completed, whole-Earth recon and
surveillance system detects any intruder into Earth's biome down
to the size of a volleyball. It also detects all spectrums of
wavelength data out to even femtophoton signals, themselves not
yet clearly defined by science yet. Thus, even if an intruder
'phases' into non-mass conditions, Fence will still register the
intruder in fempto wave patterns. Nothing can broach this.

Nothing.

There was no landing or other involvement of such on Turret
Mountain, Arizona.

Further, it is claimed HAARP somehow did something to the
weather--especially so in and around central Arizona. This would
be most difficult since HAARP has been down for maintenance
since 11-2-1998. Too, it does not effect weather. It may effect
extremely localized isobars (high and low pressure) but then so
does a commercial aircraft when taking off or landing.

I mention these events not out of ridicule, but the fact they
are blatant, patent, lies. And these very pages state they want
to somehow 'get the truth out'. This, in itself, is a lie.

The truth will never be known or divulged under these
conditions. This is not a subject of censorship. It is not even
subject to debate. It is a matter of statement of truth, or
nothing at all.

In closing, I would like you to post some heading in a
pronounced heading and fashion that will draw readers to this
mail post. Please include it all and the praise that Peter
Gersten, Director of CAUS, has presented as a news post of very
good and truthful information for the date of 12-17-1998. Others
should take Mr. Gersten's lead and do likewise.

Should this result, throughout this 'industry', more data of
needed truths will undoubtedly come forth since WE are all in
this together. Forever.

I salute Mr. Gersten and CAUS. Others should take his lead.


I am,

-- Robert A.M. Stephens
Contractor, NASA
Shuttle Documentation Program
KSC-PA/PIB-codeMSF/shuttle
sti3818@montana.com
406-745-3818






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   Dec > Dec 18

                -=[For The Record]=- Oberg/Cooper rebuttal.5a

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:16:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:52:09 -0500
Subject: -=[For The Record]=- Oberg/Cooper rebuttal.5a


Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:09:15 -0400
To: Errol Bruce-Knapp <ebk@nobelmed.com>
From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net>
Subject: Oberg/Cooper rebuttal.5

Archival:

-----------------
Oberg/Cooper rebuttal.5a
continued from 4
----------------------------------
A researcher's response to James Oberg's:
"IN SEARCH OF GORDON COOPER'S UFOs"
by Jerry Cohen
-----------------

                ----------------------------------
                 Excerpts from "The UFO Experience"
                (Hynek takes us INSIDE "Blue Book")
                ----------------------------------


Skeptics, I hope you're still reading this.  This is where
things really begin  to get interesting. It's why Hynek became a
believer.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Getting back to Dr. Hynek. In "Oberg/Cooper rebuttal 1a"
(Preface, =B6 3 ) I mentioned that "it was that Air Force's own
scientific consultant who actually proved to us that the Air
Force has not been completely honest with us concerning UFOs."

This next section focuses on what the Air Force's main civilian
scientific consultant had to say concerning Project Blue Book
after it was closed and his job there had ended. His revelations
would have shattered every skeptic's "illusion" concerning the
accuracy of Air Force statistics and made them realize that
Project Blue Book was a sham and the Air Force had to know a lot
more than it was telling. The only problem was that most of the
skeptics never read it and/or, if they did, refused to believe
it.  It is my fervent hope that those following these essays
will become more enlightened in this regard.

To say the following data "is extremely important," is
definitely the greatest understatement I have ever made in my
life. It proves, beyond all reasonable doubt, that Dr. Hynek was
held back from studying the repository of "verified" evidence in
existence. In other words, the same people that had claimed all
along this important evidence didn't exist, were keeping much of
it buried from Hynek and outsiders.  As you will see in these
excerpts from his 1972 book, by his own words, Hynek was not
permitted to peruse the files himself.  The big question was
"Was it incompetence, a need to feel important on the part of
members of the Blue Book staff or a directive from upper
echelon?"



          The accuracy of the following can be checked by
     consulting the sources provided via your local libraries


                     -------------------------
                     HYNEK & PROJECT BLUE BOOK
                      (The study that wasn't)
                     -------------------------

   {    . . . . .Spock said to McCoy . . . . . "Remember!"    }


When Blue Book closed, Dr. Hynek, having had access to Blue Book
files for approximately twenty years, and realizing how little
study had been done on some of the best cases, had decided that
there was a lot more to UFOs than most other  people realized.
The problem was, how was he going to get this information out
to the public? He needed to let them know, what *he* knew; that
Blue Book was a  "sham", that the Colorado Study had come to the
wrong conclusions and that he had information he felt proved
there was indeed something to at least a core of these UFO
reports.

In 1972, his book "The UFO Experience" was published and was
earthshaking to those of us that had been following the UFO
controversy closely. Besides the classifications he delineated
concerning the phenomena, etc., Hynek also included revealing
inside details on both Blue Book and the Condon Study.  The most
shattering our consciousness regarding Blue Book concerned
twenty pages described as "Excerpts from a letter by J. Allen
Hynek to Colonel Raymond S. Sleeper" on Oct. 7, 1968.  <1>    It
aptly demonstrated that Blue Book had been a "non-study"  and
made those of us who read his book painfully aware of how little
was accomplished by the project the Air Force touted as its
"scientific analysis" of UFOs.  The letter is both his
evaluation of Project Blue Book and a plea for the Air Force to
take the UFO subject more seriously.

After reading this, it is hard to imagine that someone,
somewhere wasn't taking it more seriously.  Our Air Force has
been and is, the finest "human" Air Force in the world.

In "Oberg/Cooper rebuttal.4"  I made several statements that may
have appeared controversial to some.  Three of them were:  1) ".
. . things concerning the Air Force weren't as we had thought";
2)  "Eventually other things surfaced that made it crystal clear
the Air Force had to know a lot more than it was willing to
tell."  and  3) ". . . a project (Blue Book) that, as we will
discover later, had become an embarrassment to itself."

There are five sections of Hynek's letter to which I wish to
draw everyone's attention.  One of the sections I haven't
included was their own (the Air Force's) consultant's plea to
take UFOs more seriously.  Those wishing to view this text in
its entirety can view it in Appendix 4 of his book, delineated
in the bibliography below.  The following, labeled by section
and general area, are quotes directly from Hynek to Sleeper.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Section A:
HOW  "BLUE BOOK"  DEALT  WITH  ITS  MISSION.

ONE  "CASE  EXAMPLE"  OF  WHAT  HYNEK  THOUGHT  WAS  A  REPORT
GOING  UNHEEDED.    DO  WE  REALLY  THINK  SOMEONE  ELSE  HIGHER
UP  DIDN'T  GET  TO  READ  THIS  CASE  WHEN  IT  OCCURRED?

"Blue Book has been charged with two missions by AFR 80-17, both
ostensibly of the same weight, since the regulations do not
specify otherwise.  They are: (1) to determine if the UFO is a
possible threat to the United States, and (2) to use the
scientific or technical data gained from study of UFO reports.
Neither of these two missions is being adequately executed.

First, the only logical basis on which it can be stated that
UFOs do not constitute a possible threat to the United States is
that so far nothing has happened to the United States from that
source.  First, many reports are not investigated until weeks or
even months after they are made; clearly, if hostility were ever
intended, it would occur long before the report was
investigated. (That is akin to having the Pearl Harbor radar
warnings [which went unheeded] investigated three weeks after
Pearl Harbor.) Nothing did occur, so it can be gathered that
UFOs, whatever they may be, have not so far had hostile intent.

Second, many reports of potentially high intelligence value go
unheeded by Blue Book.  Examples: (a) [Extract from a classified
document of reported sighting of 5 May, 1965, contents
unclassified, classification refers to name, and location and
mission of vessel.] " . . . leading signal man reported what he
believed to be an aircraft. . . . When viewed through
binoculars, three objects were sighted in close proximity to
each other; one object was first magnitude, the other two were
second magnitude. Objects were traveling at extremely high
speeds, moving toward ship at undetermined altitude.  At . . . .
four moving targets were detected on the . . . . air search
radar at ranges up to 22 miles and held up to six minutes.  When
over the ship the objects spread to circular formation directly
overhead and remained there for approximately three minutes.
This maneuver was observed both visually and by radar.  The
bright object which hovered off the starboard quarter made the
larger presentation on the radar scope.  The objects made
several course changes during the sighting, confirmed visually
and by radar, and were *tracked at speeds in excess of 3000
(three thousand) knots.* (J.C. Asterisks are mine.)  Challenges
were made by IFF but not answered.  After the three minute
hovering maneuver, the objects moved in a southeasterly
direction at an extremely high rate of speed. Above evolution
observed by CO, all bridge personnel and numerous hands
topside."

This report was summarily evaluated by Blue Book as "Aircraft,"
and to the best of my knowledge was never further investigated.
By what stretch of the imagination can we say that the sighting
did not represent a "possible threat" to the United States?
Only because nothing happened.  Do we ascribe such incompetence
to the officers of the ship, and to the CO, to have such a
report submitted unless all witnesses were truly puzzled?  Is it
conceivable that these officers could not have recognized an
aircraft had it had the trajectory, the apparent speed, and the
maneuvers ascribable to aircraft?  No mention is made in the
report of even the possibility that ordinary aircraft were being
observed.  The very fact that IFF challenges went unanswered
should have been a spur to further investigation.  This implies
enemy craft.  But the report does not even suggest the
possibility that these were ordinary enemy  aircraft.  The
classified document in Blue Book files does not contain further
technical data concerning the sighting itself.  Should not the
director of Blue Book have exhibited at least SOME curiosity
about this sighting?  Yet when I brought it up on more than one
occasion, it was dismissed with boredom. . . . . . *It is hard
for the public to understand how a country whose military
posture is so security geared could dismiss a case like this
out-of-hand unless the military knew more than they were
telling." * (J.C. asterisks are mine)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
J.C. Was Hynek only talking about the public understanding
or his own as well?
    After giving a second example similar to the above
he says the following:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

ON  HYNEK's  ROLE  IN  BLUE BOOK  (GUESSING GAME PLAYED)
Appendix 4, Section A, Paragraph 9

"It must be pointed out that neither of these cases were shown
to me by Blue Book personnel.  I happened upon them by accident
during one of my visits as I scanned through material lying on a
desk, and not in the files; I am not permitted to peruse the
files themselves.  I have access to the files only when I
request a specific case.  But how can I request a specific case,
to examine its possible scientific merits, if I don't know of
its existence?"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
J.C.  Does the above sound as though they wanted him
to examine the cases?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

ON  THE  STAFF  OF  BLUE  BOOK
Appendix 4, Section B, Paragraph 1

"The staff of Blue Book, both in numbers and in scientific
training, is grossly inadequate to perform the tasks assigned
under AFR 80-17, even were they of a mind to do so."


----------------------------
End: Oberg/Cooper rebuttal.5a
continued in: 5b
-------------------------------------
HYNEK & PROJECT BLUE BOOK
(The study that wasn't)
----------------------------





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                -=[For The Record]=- Oberg/Cooper rebuttal.5b

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:55:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:53:13 -0500
Subject: -=[For The Record]=- Oberg/Cooper rebuttal.5b


Archival:

-----------------
Oberg/Cooper rebuttal.5b
continued from 5a
----------------------------------
A researcher's response to James Oberg's:
"IN SEARCH OF GORDON COOPER'S UFOs"
by Jerry Cohen
-----------------

                ----------------------------------
                Excerpts from "The UFO Experience"
               (Hynek takes us INSIDE "Blue Book")
                ----------------------------------

. . . . .

ON  SCIENTIFIC  EXCHANGE  WITH  THE  OUTSIDE  SCIENTIFIC  WORLD
OR  WITHIN  THE AIR FORCE ITSELF  Appendix 4, Section C,
Paragraph 1

"There has been little dialogue between Blue Book and the
outside scientific world or between Blue Book and the various
scientific facilities within the Air Force itself."

"I know of very little scientific correspondence in the blue
book files; this is probably because scientists wish to
correspond with persons of like training. It would be pointless,
for instance, to query Blue Book on the scientific reasons for
evaluating a given case, say, as caused by a temperature
inversion:  Blue Book has never availed itself of the
meteorological know-how within the Air Force itself to determine
just how much of an inversion is necessary to produce the
effects reported by the witness, if at all."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
J.C.    Communication has been found in FOIA released documents
that prove Hynek was wrong about this last statement.  He just
didn't see them back then.  <2>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

". . . . . many astronomical evaluations have been made by Blue
Book without consulting their scientific consultant (who is,
after all, an astronomer) which have brought ridicule in the
press. The midwest flap of reports of July 31-August 1, 1965 can
be cited as an example."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
J.C.    Above, Hynek's defense concerning the erroneous
Air Force explanation discovered by Robert Risser,
director of Oklahoma City's Kirkpatrick Planetarium
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

ON  STATISTICAL  METHODS  EMPLOYED  BY  BLUE BOOK
Appendix 4, Section D, Paragraph 1

"The statistical methods employed by Blue Book are a travesty on
the branch of mathematics known as Statistics.  A chapter in a
doctoral dissertation at Northwestern University, soon to be
published, deals specifically with this aspect, and I will later
quote from it (Herbert Strentz, "A Study of Some Air Force
Statistical Procedures in Recording and Reporting Data on UFO
Investigations," included in "A SURVEY OF PRESS COVERAGE OF
UFOs, 1947-1967, a doctoral thesis at the Medill School of
Journalism, Northwestern University") and preface it with my own
observations which, incidentally, I have repeatedly brought to
the attention of the Blue Book staff but to no avail."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
J.C.    *** Hynek states outright that the statistics
            being quoted by Blue Book were a joke. ***
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

ON  LACK  OF  ATTENTION  TO  SIGNIFICANT  CASES
Appendix 4, Section E, Paragraph 1

"There has been lack of attention to significant UFO cases, as
judged by the scientific consultant and others, and too much
time on routine cases which contain few information bits; too
much time and effort are demanded of the Blue Book staff for
peripheral tasks (public relations, answering letters about
evaluation of old cases and answering requests for information
from various and sundry sources)."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
J.C.    Researchers who have looked at the number of people
employed had ago determined that the project was incredibly
understaffed & under-ranked.  It was felt this showed the real
value the military placed on it.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"A scientist who finds something in his laboratory that he can't
explain is no scientist if he labels it "unknown" and files it
away and spends the rest of his time in routine matters.  It is
precisely the Unknowns that Blue Book should be concerned with,
not making impressive (?) counts of how many people cannot
properly identify a satellite or a meteor."


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
J.C.    It appears the military was more concerned with public
opinion than science. Above point made by critics of the Condon
Report regarding *that* study as well.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


INFORMATION  INPUT
Appendix 4, Section E, Paragraph 1

"The information input to Blue Book is grossly inadequate and
certainly the cause of much of the inefficiency within the Book
by the almost consistent failure of UFO officers at the local
Air Bases  to transmit adequate information to Blue Book, and, I
might say, it was considerably worse in the long period before
there were UFO officers so designated.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
J.C.    i.e.  There were probably more cases
but we didn't get the proper information on them.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

ANOTHER  CASE  SELECTED  BY  HYNEK  TO  ILLUSTRATE  THE  LACK  OF
RIGOR  IN  THE  SCIENTIFIC  METHODOLOGY  OF  BLUE BOOK
Appendix 4, Section G, Paragraph 5

"Incident at Redlands, California (4 Feb 68)

It was investigated by no one at Blue Book, superficially by a
member of Norton AFB, and for a total of three months by Dr.
Philip Seff, professor of geology, Dr. Reinhold Krantz,
professor of chemistry, Dr. Judson Sanderson, Professor of
mathematics, and artist John Brownfield, professor of art (who
drew an artist's conception from the descriptions given
independently by the witnesses and whose composite painting was
verified by the witnesses), all of the University of Redlands.
It is of interest to note that no one at Blue Book has seen fit
to contact these investigators and discuss their investigation
at least over the phone."

The case itself concerns the reported sighting by some twenty
observers of an object with seven lights on the bottom, which
appeared as jets, and a row of eight to ten lights on top which
were alternating in color.  The object was reported to have
proceeded at a low altitude (estimated about 300 feet) in a
northeasterly direction for about a mile, to have come to a stop
and to have hovered briefly, jerked forward, hovered again, then
to have shot straight upward, stopped, hovered again, then
wavered to the northwest, gained altitude, and then to have shot
off to the northwest with a strong burst of speed.  It was under
observation for about 5 minutes.  The object was estimated to
have been at least 50 feet in diameter.  The estimates of 300
feet altitude and 50 feet must be considered jointly; only the
apparent diameter can be judged, of course, but on the
assumption of a given distance the estimate of 50 feet was
arrived at. Clearly, if the object had been several miles away,
the unchanged apparent diameter would lead to an unbelievably
large object. For these reasons these estimates cannot be
summarily dismissed.

You will undoubtedly be interested to know that Blue Book
classified this object as "probable aircraft."  How this was
arrived at with no investigation is, of course, a striking
example of methodology of Blue Book.  Norton AFB reported that
March AFB radar painted no unusual targets (ignoring completely
the fact that an object at 300 feet altitude would have been
missed by this radar) and that a light plane had landed at
Tri-City airport at 19:15 PST, whereas a check of the police
blotter and of all witnesses, agreed that the sighting could not
have occurred earlier than 19:20.  Further, a check made by the
university professors, (but apparently not even thought of by
Blue Book) with the authorities at the airfield showed that the
plane was coming in from Los Angeles and never approached closer
than six miles to the city of Redlands and therefore never
passed over the city of Redlands, whereas all witnesses agree
that it was actually close over the city.  The plane which
landed (which Blue Book did not think to inquire about) was a
Bonanza single engine propeller aircraft which the professors
took the trouble to examine while in its hangar at the airfield.
[The Redlands case is the sole subject of a book now in
production by David Branch and Robert Klinn, entitled Inquiry at
Redlands.]

The discrepancy between what was reported and the Blue Book
evaluation is so great as to be laughable.  The law, further,
states that planes cannot fly lower than 1000 feet over
Redlands. It appears inconceivable that twenty or so witnesses
would misidentify a light, single engine plane, several miles
away, as a brilliantly lighted, unconventional aircraft at 300
feet that jerked, hovered, and sped away, and went straight up
in the overcast."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
J.C.    Mind you, this was the Air Force's own "number one"
civilian consultant who had said all this.  I believe it is
obvious that Dr. Hynek's words are in full support of the three
statements I indicated earlier in "Oberg/Cooper rebuttal.4".
Now you can see at least one reason why the Air Force wanted to
dismantle Project Blue Book;  a project  I said that....... "had
become an embarrassment to itself."  The "solid bedrock"
skeptics once stood upon, (i.e. the Air Force's claim that most
UFOs have been explained), crumbled to bits with the publishing
of Hynek's "The UFO Experience" in 1972.  Likewise, so did Air
Force credibility with regards to how honest the Air Force was
being with the public concerning UFOs.

REGARDING COOPER & THE EDWARDS AFB PHOTOGRAPHS:  Mr. Oberg's
following words regarding the Edwards AFB photographs take on a
different meaning when one has been appraised of the preceding:

Oberg =B6 49    Now, in fact those photographs did not vanish
after all: they had been sent to Project Blue Book, at Wright-
Patterson AFB in Dayton, Ohio, per regulations (I even have
talked to the officer who did the original Blue Book interviews,
former Captain Hubert Davis, who had been greatly impressed with
the witness's sincerity).

Oberg =B6 50     The Air Force must have found a satisfactory
solution -- but what?........  That answer had been around since
1957, but not widely circulated in the UFO media for obvious
reasons: the Air Force said it had been a weather balloon.....

A weather balloon.  Where have we heard that before?  Perhaps
the reasons were a lot less obvious than Mr. Oberg has
previously thought.  The real question is "How valid is the Air
Force's explanation?"

Also, cases such as the initial one quoted from Section A this
installment, as well as other military or government cases that
happen in a close proximity of time,  such as the ones I
mentioned in "Oberg/Cooper rebuttal.4", (i.e.  "Coast Guard
Cutter Sebago RADAR/visual case", "James Stokes, engineer from
the Missile Development Center at Holloman AFB, Alamagordo
N.M.", and Kirtland AFB case"), occurring within 4 days of each
other if not less, lend great support to the argument that the
Air Force and our government know more about UFOs, and perhaps
even what they are, than they have presently acknowledged.  I'll
examine these closely after our next installment.  However,
imagine, with the RADARs we now possess; RADARs that can paint
an actual picture of an object on a screen, what statistics and
data the branches of our service and government must already
have?  The visual/radar Belgium Sightings from 1989/90 have
added solid NATO (North American Treaty Alliance) gun camera
data, etc. as well. <3>


Furthermore, to think that another department in our defense
system hasn't been quietly receiving all this UFO information
without studying it would be to imply that our defense system is
highly incompetent.  Since we all know this is not the truth, I
would hope it is safe to assume that some defense group(s),
somewhere is (are) well appraised of the situation.  FOIA
documents obtained through standard requests and lawsuits, where
necessary, have apparently confirmed, at the minimum, definite
interest from various parts of the government regarding UFOs
even though the public has been led to think otherwise. <4>

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Bibliography:

<1>     Hynek, J. Allen "The UFO Experience" Henry Regnery
Company 1972, appendix four (Excerpt of a Letter from J. Allen
Hynek to Colonel Raymond S. Sleeper)
<2>     Fawcett, L. & Greenwood, B. "The UFO Cover-up" Simon &
Schuster Fireside Book 1992
<3>     CUFOS Journal (International UFO Reporter) . July/Aug
1990 . p. 23 : Documentation displayed to public in an "Unsolved
Mysteries" television episode narrated by Robert Stack
<4>     Newsday (Long Island newspaper) Fri 1/19/79 "UFOs seen
at Air Bases in 1975 : Gersten, Peter . Frontiers of Science .
May/June 1981 . "What the U.S. Government Knows About
Unidentified Flying Objects" : Fawcett, L. & Greenwood, B. "The
UFO Cover-up" Simon & Schuster Fireside Book 1992


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 ". . . and McCoy became a raving maniac until he gave Spock
back his soul. "

     "Who is Spock? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .YOU are!"
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

----------------------------
End: Oberg/Cooper rebuttal.5b
continued in: 6
----------------------------------
HYNEK & PROJECT BLUE BOOK
(The study that wasn't)
----------------------------

My next installment is a two-page summation of what we've
discussed so far and ideas where to locate cases which have the
greatest potential of being judged "the real thing" if proper
investigations were to be conducted thereupon. Immediately
following that summation will be a detailed accounting of the
three cases I mentioned which, when combined with all other
available evidence, strongly suggests there is good reason to
believe Gordon Cooper was probably telling the truth concerning
his 1957 Edwards AFB claim.

Respectfully submitted,

Jerry Cohen
E-mail:  rjcohen@li.net






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 18

             Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 03:25:20 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:05:29 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out

[Non-Subscriber Post]

Mike Bara and Hoagy,


Post far and wide please---since it's the truth.

I have received 3100 mails at both servers in 5 days regarding
this whole 'Petey sue the NASA guy' flap and my retaliation. Mr.
Peter Gersten of CAUS is fine---> (please consult his good
posting [12-17-1998] and excellent news report at UFO UpDates -
Toronto -- we need more of this dissemination of information by
everyone)

However, rather than have someone like me respond to your
'lunar' page, and Black Duck, MN, I think it best to have 'Earth
Goddess' do it for me, since she undoubtedly has more
credibility than I ever could. Her mail is below.

Oh, by the way, I am not a 'source'. I am Robert A.M. Stephens.
Fact. Phone number, email, et, al. Post all data or none at all.
Defy this request and I will bring great forces to bear legally.
This is fact, not subject to debate, or supposition, or
conjecture.

The 'Real' Paul Dore is innocent, in England. The 'Fake' Paul
Dore is somewhere in the United States. All traces with the
blessings of Sprint and MCI, since they are the controllers of
all this Rage-in-the-Machine, are available by request. This
defamation stops now. The real Paul Dore asked that you cease
and desist and apologize for the misuse of his name and
disfortune regarding this Pegasi crap. Since no one will comply
with his request, I am requesting this for him.

Hoagy-----> Get a darn email address! There are a few hundred
trillion of us that would like to 'visit' with you a little
about a few things. How about you gettin' one in, say, 19.5
hours....you know, to be fair and all.

Both of you:--> READ this:
========================

(Excerpted with permission from 'Earth Sex Angel, Planet Gorii')
(forwarded from 'Phyler' ((sp?)--robert)

-----

"Earthlings,

I take issue with this <Turd Peak Hoagy> and this <Petey> clown
and ORBIT. They are THE coverup. I live in Peterson Minnesota -
a suburb of St. Paul. I grew up in Black Duck and its a real
place. Stupid people. Then, those two took that NASA guy apart
about the ELF radar array up there in Black Duck. Actually its
just south of there. Been there for years. Everyone up there
that works on the small base get good checks. It's A Real
Place. Don't Believe Them---They Are Lying To Us.

They are lying weirdoes.

"NO LANDING" is what those two and ORBIT and them other pages
should be saying.

Their claims just went out the window with me and the coven
angels.

(PS:---I'd believe that NASA guy before these two. At least he
knew
where things were)

Earth Sex Angel
Planet Gorii
Sex Goddess Extremis

by ya all!" ----and luv : -)

==============================

That was one of the more 'rational' mails I've received. And,
I'm convinced, her assessment is correct. Perhaps you both need
to visit a local elementary school and consult an atlas of the
United States of America. It should be listed under the letter
'U'. As in 'U' are stupid.

Behold. Something legal this way comes. In the end, this legality
will be very great.




-- Robert A.M. Stephens
Contractor, NASA
Shuttle Documentation Program
KSC-PA/PIB-codeMSF/shuttle
sti3818@montana.com
406-745-3818

Post far and wide please---since it's the truth.





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 18

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:48:50 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:09:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:52:14 +0800


>I don't believe ETs treat us the same as we treat animals on our
>planet.  We are put back in the same place as was taken (or
>nearby) because they are aware of the importance 'place' has in
>our society.  If we were all tossed about and relocated to
>different countries or continents, this would place a great many
>number of lives into choas therefore they could not observe us
>in our natural state.  We have much less respect for the animals
>of our planet.

I agree with you completely. The tests and procedures reportedly
performed on abductees seem to be oriented toward some purpose
about which we can only speculate. We do terrible things to
animals simply because we can, in most cases. The abductors seem
to show more compassion for those lower on the evolutionary
scale than we do....well, except for cattle. I'm by no means
inclined to be an activist, but I confess I don't much like
zoos. Animals belong where they belong.

As for the methods employed for the aquisition of the subject, I
for one appreciate the candor they seem to show by abducting
people at moments when it least seems to affect their lives,
i.e. in the dark, at night. While no doubt a difficult prospect
to deal with for the unfortunate subjects, we should be thankful
they don't chase us out into fields and shoot us with darts.

Greg





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   Dec > Dec 18

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:58:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:17:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology
>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 17:51:41 PST

Eine Kleine Klarkwerke! - or The Hynek and Larsen Postings Recap

Hello, gentle UpDates folk!


>Gary is, it is ever more apparent, determined to believe at any
>cost. Which explains, of course, his imperviousness to
>arguments based merely on evidence, experience, knowledge, and
>logic.

Interesting. I do remain impervious to YOUR arguments which
seem to be based solely on the fact that you knew Sherm Larsen!
It is almost quaint that you continue to assume that anyone with
a brain is going to find that argument telling.

>When I entered this discussion, I labored under the naive
>delusion that Gary was actually interested in learning
>something, even if it happened to contradict some bold, albeit
>uninformed, statements he was making. It is clear to me now, of
>course, that Gary was and is not interested in learning
>something he does not want to know.

I have learned a lot over the last few years, and I am learning
more and more with every message Mr. Clark puts on the list.
The fact that what I am "learning" is not acceptable to Mr.
Clark fails to disappoint me.

>That being the case, I have no choice but to view with immense
>skepticism any future claim he makes about something I know
>less about than I know about Hynek and Larsen. I urge the rest
>of you to exercise comparable caution, and I here abandon all
>efforts to liberate Gary from the ignorance, complacency, and
>paranoia that afford him such happiness. What follows is for
>the benefit of the rest of you.

I must be making progress since you now actively warn people
against me. I must refer list readers back to my "propaganda
techniques" message in reference to the penultimate line in the
paragraph above. Some might find it very instructive.

>Sherm, the rest of you will want to know, was a natural shuffler
>of paper. He was fond of documents and of filing them (one
>reason he was such a successful insurance agent, I might add),
>and a good thing, too. He kept neat files (more than Hynek ever
>did, which was not at all), and when he handed over the NICAP
>archives to CUFOS (he'd kept them in his garage, CUFOS then
>having no better place to put th em), they were in terrific
>shape. Sherm understood something that has escaped many
>(including me at times): that a significant proportion of good
>ufology is the proper storing of information.

Now this is quite valuable information, the fact that the former
CIC man was a document collector and preserver and that he wound
up with custody of the NICAP files, out of all the people who
could have wound up with such files. Yes, you could say that
was VERY interesting!

>It is, of course, a defensible argument, though hardly beyond
>dispute. In fact, it seems to me, "sighting reports" _have_
>swayed the public, which poll after poll attests is mostly
>sympathetic to the idea of UFO reality. What has not been
>swayed is elite opinion -- scientific, journalistic, and other
>-- which would make acceptance of UFOs actually mean something
>(e.g., significantly funded research). Short of a landing on
>Times Square, that probably won't change in ur lifetimes. What
>would immediately change opinion, of course, would be an
>official pronouncement, with relevant supporting documents,
>attesting to the authenticity of the UFO phenomenon and/or its
>extraordinary origins. If Sherm had substituted "elite opinion"
>for "the public," he would have had a better argument, I think.
>Possibly, that's the argument he thought he was making.

Mr. Larsen, thank God, did speak for himself in this regard and
his reasoning was sharp and clear, as was his analysis. His
paper stood out among the standard "ufological" material as a
redwood might have among Bradford Pear trees. I admire Mr.
Larsen greatly, as I do any true professional!

>Sherm's "unnamed source" was Allen, and those documents are
>available now in the CUFOS archives to any serious researcher
>who wants to examine them at the office in Chicago. While doing
>my research for the UFO Encyclopedia series, I went through many
>of them. To my intense disappointment, alas, the fabled
>Estimate of the Situation is not among them. All sorts of
>interesting Blue Book and other documents are, however.

Very interesting indeed and now I will be able to list Mr. Clark
as my source for the information that Hynek was leaking
sensitive government documents to the public through a former
CIC man who would remain his close colleague far into the
future.

>Allen was uneasy about possible retribution from the Air Force,
>since his acquisition of certain documents was not, shall we
>say, authorized. This is a nice way of saying that not
>everything he pocketed was a copy of something.

So, Dr. Hynek was not above a little intelligence work, on his
own account, if the cause was a good one. This is nice to know.

[The following refers to Mr. Clark's original "Babbitt"
reference vis-a-vis Mr. Larsen, and my comment on that
reference.]

>Well said, if I do say so myself. I didn't say, however, that
>he was stupid. The above description of Sherm, by the way,
>would be recognized by anybody who knew the man, as Gary -- as
>we all know all too well -- didn't. Gary's clueless about the
>real nature of Sherm Larsen becomes ever more profound.

Well, you can say I'm clueless all you want but it won't change
the connections many list readers are making right now!

Continuing, I said:

>>I ask.

>>Does your insurance agent collect documents from sources he
>>cannot name, documents the government does not make available to
>>John Q. Public?

And Mr. Clark said:

>Yup, if he's interested in UFOs, is an associate of Hynek, and
>is a document buff. Sherm was all of the above.

Yes, he was -- and a whole lot more, as we now know, don't we!

Continuing, I said:

>>How interesting that Mr. Larsen had been able to get these
>>documents, and that he could not name his sources. Now, let me
>>see, who was Larsen's good friend, from Chicago, that he would
>>combine with to found a UFO investigative organization? Why, I
>>think that was Dr. J. Allen Hynek, wasn't it. Hmm. I wonder.

And Mr. Clark said:

>With deductive powers like that, I'll bet Gary has been able to
>figure out at which horizon the sun will rise tomorrow.

Well, what else can you do with the obvious except try to spin
it, somehow, to your own benefit. But many list readers can see
through this canard. Actually, it's quite nice to have Mr. Clark
just own up. You see, there was every chance that someone ELSE
was supplying Larsen's information. It's nice to really KNOW, or
does Mr. Clark consider his own statements not evidence?

Continuing, I said:

>>I think you folks are going to really enjoy my book, with
>>research backed up as it is by facts, not the propaganda others
>>have offered on these subjects. This is just the tip of the
>>iceberg. Thank you for your attention.

And Mr. Clark said:

>Oh? You mean we've seen the tip? Hate to say this, guy, but it
>has yet to come into view. The way I see it, no tip, no
>iceberg.

Well, luckily, that is not really up to YOU to decide, is it?

Gary Alevy





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   Dec > Dec 18

              Re: Hynek 12/17/66 Sat. Eve. Post article - Pt. 1

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:30:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:21:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Hynek 12/17/66 Sat. Eve. Post article - Pt. 1


>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:06:42 -0400
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net>
>Subject: Hynek 12/17/66 Sat. Eve. Post article - Pt. 1

Thanks for reporting this long forgotten article.

HYNEK WROTE:

>But I cannot explain them all. Of the 15,000 cases that have
>come to my attention, several hundred are puzzling, and some of
>the puzzling incidents, perhaps one in 25, are bewildering. I
>have wanted to learn much more about these cases than I have
>been able to get from either the reports or the witnesses.


Hynek refers to 1/25 or 4% as "bewildering." This was written in
1966. Now consider what Air Force Intelligence told the FBI in
1952. Note that General John Samford was the Director of Air
Force Intelligence at the time and that the below statement was
made on the SAME DAY that the he (and Roger Ramey!) held a press
conference to explain the mass of summer 1952 sightings,
including the Washington, DC sightings. Date: July 29, 1952

FROM: FBI "X file"
(Commander Boyd told the FBI agent that a third class of
sightings is) "those sightings which are reported by pilots and
for which there is additional corroboration, such as recorded by
radar or sighting from the ground. Commander Boyd advised that
this latter classification constitutes two to three percent of
the total number of sightings, but they were te most diffiult to
explain."

The bottom line is that they couldn't explain the 2-3% without
straining the physics beyond credibility....and Hynek knew it...
but he didn't admit it until 1966.


SPRINGTIME FOR HYNEK:
>Recently I had dinner with several members of the Condon
>committee. What a pleasure it was to sit down with men who were
>open-minded about UFO's, who did not look at me as though I were
>a Martian myself. For the first time other scientists, who
>apparently have been wondering all along, have openly talked
>about the reports. One leading scientist wrote me the other day:
>"For some time now I have been convinced of the reality of this
>phenomenon based on reports in the general news media. It has
>seemed to me that even with a heavy discount there is a core of
>reliable observations which we cannot shrug off. Twice in recent
>weeks I have stated my views on the subject in small
>conversational groups of respectable, scholarly friends, and
>found that they were amazed that I should take these matters
>seriously. So I know that it took some courage for you to speak
>out."

WAS FOLLOWED SEVERAL YEARS LATER BY A VERY COLD WINTER!

I thank Jerry Cohen for recalling these halcyon days of ufology
for those of us who lived through them....and for providing the
new comers with information they would not likely search out for
themselves. Yes, it was a "whole 'nother world" back then. Or
was it?

PERSONAL NOTE:

the information in this paper by Hynek wasalready ancient
history and long forgotten when I first communicated with him in
1973 or 4(?). By that time he had founded the Center for UFO
Studies and had given a lecture at my place of empoyment (former
Naval Ordnance Laboratory). I had not been able to attend his
lecture (out of town) so I wrote him a letter. In his response
he invited me t become a member of the Center for UFO Studies.
At that time I still viewed him wth some suspicion, thinking
that he probably knew a lot more than he was saying. When I last
saw him in 1985 I still believed he knew more than he was
saying. However, I never got the impression that he was part of
an orchestrated cover up. And, of course, he portrayed himself
as being on the outside if there was any orchestrated cover up.

Thanks to the FOIPA and the continuous efforts of many people
(Robert Todd being one pre-eminent in this) we now have
documentation that shows what the Air Force was '"thinking" 50
years ago. It is clear that Air Force Intelligence did NOT level
with the American people, irrespective of Roswell undercurrents.
Throw away Roswell. One is still left with sightings as
convincing as those cited by Hynek which occurred within th
first 5 year.... including photographic/movie proof of 30
objects capable of flight at 150,000ft. (See THE UFO/FBI
CONNECTION/ the REAL X-files; contact brumac@compuserve.com if
interested).

So perhaps Hynek was telling the truth after all. He really
didn't know much more than he was saying..... and he did argue
that UFOS ARE REAL!





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 18

                       Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:31:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:24:45 -0500
Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:06:06 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting


>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:00:35 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:57:10 -0500
>>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

>>Yes, and Donald Menzel, in his first book ('Flying
>>Saucers',1953), called this the best case (between 1947 and
>>1953). He then went on to distort the information sufficiently
>>that he was able to propose the UFO was actually a mirage of the
>>balloon. Had be been accurate in his description rather than
>>Clintonesque any intelligent reader would have realized that his
>>explanation was unphysical garbage.

>I am also very suspicious of this new explanation for the
>sighting as a meteor fireball that grazed the atmosphere then
>skipped out. Such things do happen, but several details of the
>sighting do not seem to match at all.

I hadn't heard about the fireball explanation.

But, thanks for your detailed comments. Gordon Vaeth's
description was taken directly from CB Moore's writtebn report
to the Navy project office.

If you make a crude plot of the reported directions to the
object you will immediately see why the fireball explanation is
a washout,.

It was initially picked up in the same direction as the balloon
(within a few degrees) at abot 210 az, 45 deg elevation. Thus
they were looking to the southwest and upward at 45 degrees.
Then the sighting direction rotated conterclockwise as seen from
above as the bject moved toward the east. It passed close to the
direction to the sun at 127 az, 60 deg elevation. That means at
one time it was to the southeast and higher in elevation, BUT
NOT DIRECTLY OVERHEAD. Then the direction continued to rotate
counter- clockwise as it headed northward. When the azimuth
angle reached abou 20-25 degrees the change in azimuth stopped.
At this time te elevation was abou 25 degrees, but over the next
few seconds, with the azimuth constant, the elevation INCREASED
to about 29 degrees where it was lost in the distance.

Now consider this: the opposite direction to 210 is 30 degrees.
Thus, with the object initially seen at 210, them if it were
last seen at 30 deg and if it had passed DIRECTLY OVER THE
OBSERVERS, then it could have traveled in a straight track.

However, the object did NOT pass over the observers since it
passed near the sun which was at an elevation of about 60
degrees. Furthermore, it's last azimuth was 20-25 degrees, so
even ignoring the passage near the sun, IT DID NOT TRAVEL IN A
STRAIGHT LINE from its initial direction to its final direction.
There WAS a BEND in the track...and not a small bend at that. Q.
E. D.

Puncture that fireball meteor hypothesis and let it sink to the
bottom of the sea, along with the whale excrement, where it
belongs!





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   Dec > Dec 18

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:30:01 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:29:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:32:47 -0500
>Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:04:35 -0500
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>I wish to thank Jerry Clark for the bit of information
>concerning Sherm Larsen's garage where so many NICAP files were
>"preserved" for transference to CUFOS.

>I have been reliably informed that these NICAP files had been
>stripped of selected government and sensitive documents before
>the transferral was made to CUFOS.

It would be interesting to know just who this "reliable" source
was. During the 1960s and 1970s, I visited NICAP a number of
times. I copied material from the files and place material in
the files. Pretty much I was given free rein to look at
whatever I pleased. At the time a friend in Australia had a
newspaper clipping services that covered Australia, New Zealand
and England. He also sent material that was passed on to NICAP.

There was not a large number of government documents in the
NICAP files that I ever saw. Most of the government material
that did exist were letters in answer to inquiries about cases,
policies, etc.

After reading this posting, I called Richard Hall, and asked him
about the government material collected at NICAP. He confirmed
that there was not much government material. Mostly if they got
something that originated from the government, NICAP took it to
the media. NICAP also published it in the UFO Investigator, UFO
Evidence, or other publications. The idea was to demonstrate
that the government, while debunking UFOs, was concerned enough
to investigate them.

Ted Bloecher also convinced Major Keyhoe to bring his material
in to the NICAP office where Bloecher made typed copies of
Keyhoe's files to use in his summaries of UFO case. Most of
Keyhoe's files were then made part of NICAP's files. I also
think Bloecher did not think 1960s Xerox copies would last. That
was probably another reason he made typed copies Surprise,
Surprise, that material is there in the CUFOS files, as are
other documents, the Redmond, Oregon case, Ken Purdy's and
Keyhoe's notes on the Project Grudge report, some intelligence
reports which sometime came in, other items like the 1953 FAA
report, and lots of responses to inquires in the form of letters
from various government agencies.

Hall, Timmerman, Larson, and a number of other people helped
salvage NICAP's files. Not everything was salvaged, however,
most of the sighting files and significant correspondence were.


>Today, thanks to Mr. Clark's good work we have a pretty good
>idea of who removed those documents.

And what documents were removed? Any ideas? If there were
significant documents missing how would you know? There is an
answer. Probably, from the files of James McDonald, Hall, Isabel
Davis, Ted Bloecher. Hall, Bloecher and Davis carried on a long
and detailed correspondence with McDonald. They brought
everything they could find of significance to his attention.
McDonald files are available at the University ot Arizona. The
next biggest collection of McDonald material is probably at he
Keyhoe Archives. Again, there is not a great deal of government
material mentioned. NICAP did most of its work before FOIA
existed. It was difficult to get access to the Project Blue Book
files at Maxwell AFB, but McDonald was able to do it. He wrote
about the material he found there. Also, material examined by
the Condon Committee sometimes slipped out, and NICAP got
copies.

>One of the reasons I post to Updates is because the discussion
>generated can sometimes reveal important information, for
>instance, the fact that Sherm Larsen is the party that turned
>over NICAPs files to CUFOS and that they had been meticulously
>cared for, by the same person who probably removed the
>government and sensitive documents referred to earlier.

So just what government files are missing from the NICAP files?
There weren't many to beginning with. The ones that were there,
are now at CUFOS. Richard Hall told me that there was no secret
cache of government documents at NICAP.

There are holes in the NICAP files at CUFOS, specifically some
pre-1947 and the 1957 UFO wave material seems to be among the
missing, however, some may have been left behind in the salvage
operation rather than culled out by Sherm Larson. The missing
material is definitely not government material.


>Once again thank you very much Mr. Clark I don't know what I'd
>do without you.

>Gary

>P.S. If the Estimate of the Situation was ever in those files,
>now we know who should be at the top of the list of suspects for
>removing it.

The "Estimate" was never in the NICAP files, nor were any other
Top Secret or former Top Secret UFO documents. Again, Hall
confirms this.

The CUFOS files contains Hynek's material and lots of other
material from other collections. Hynek's files are most
interesting as he spent 20 years working for the USAF. There are
documents in his files that do not exist in the Project Blue
Book files. Some of the cases listed in the Project Blue Book
files as "case file missing" were contained in his files. In his
last years' of USAF employment he tried to copy all the material
in the Project Blue Book files. Since he received copies of most
UFO reports in the later years, many of the documents in his
files were carbon copies of incoming teletype messages. Hynek
also conduct a rather extensive correspondence with Col Friend.
They exchanged tapes, some of which still exist.

Hynek was also instrumental in saving some of the Project Sign
microfilms. We had four of the nine microfilm rolls before the
last discovery, or I guess you would call it "recovery". When Ed
Stewart and I visited CUFOS, Ed found two more rolls that Hynek
had received years ago, and apparently kept. The microfilm cans
were mislabeled as movie films. I have commented before on the
Project Sign microfilms and the fact that they contain material
missing from Project Blue Book files.

Sherm Larson's hand can be seen in mounting and remounting of
clippings and labeling each sighting according to date,
location, and Hynek classification. As for culling of documents
from the files, claims are meaningless, evidence is what counts.
Sherm Larson was a good organizer, a moderately good UFO
investigator, and from his writings a rather naive person.
Certainly, he was not a super-James Bond type.


--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
Telephone: (860) 546-9135






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 18

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:59:22 PST
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:34:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:34:29 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>Hello Leanne, List, other entities lurking,

>Leanne, I would like to hear (read: "read") your views on the
>subject of abductions.  What leads you to believe that the
>phenom doesn't exist.


Jim & List

Where's the evidence?

>Is it that you do not believe in life beyond earth? Or, perhaps
>you do not believe such a phenom is possible at all!?  Do you
>believe that aliens have visited us?  Or do you believe this
>too, is a figment of an overactive imagination.  Perhaps that
>morsel of undigested beef.

I do in fact think that life, in some forms, exists outside of
Terra. I like to think that is possible that alien life has
visited, or will visit us, if it does indeed exist. Until I see
some empirical evidence of visitation then I see no reason to
have 'faith' as I am not religious.

>Do you believe in UFOs to the extent that they do or do not
>exist? A key question I would ask you is, "Do you believe that
>the abductee believes he or she was abducted?"  I refer to those
>whose credibility you respect.

Obviously UFOs exist or else there wouldn't be evidence of them
in photographic form and expert testimony, but that only means
that they are unidentified not that they are extraterran
vehicles piloted by intelligent alien beings.

Whether I, or my dead dog Scraps (may he bark in peace),
'believe' that some people 'believe', 'have faith' or 'know
absolutely' that they are abductees, is absolutely irrelevant
without factual data. What people perceive as fact is not
necessarily fact in scientific terms - show me the damn science
not the rhetoric, not the dreams, not the schizoid ramblings,
not the second-hand stories from any unreliable sources, not the
anonymous emails, not the mumbles of the deluded on the
talk-back shows, and, believe it or not - not even the true-life
experiences of real abductees.

Show me the science. Show me the footage of someone melting
through a wall. Show me fact!

>Obviously there are reasons which you can apply which
>demonstrate your belief system, what might those be?

A belief based on solid scientific facts is good enough for me.

>Jim Mortellaro

Is this stirring enough? I can go on more if you like . . .

Regards,
Leanne  ];-)







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   Dec > Dec 18

                 Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 02:35:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:39:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request  For Help

>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:42:57 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request  For Help


>I have contacts at Toronto's Michener Institute For Applied
>Medical Sciences (previously known as TIMT) who are willing to
>evaluate any X-rays that I provide them.

>I plan to show them some new X-rays that have been taken by a
>doctor here in Toronto after I return from my Christma/New Year
>break. These X-rays are of a patient with a foreign(?) object
>who has had UFO related close experiences.

>I would be happy to have my contacts (they have trained many of
>the R.T.s in radiology here in Canada) examine and report on
>anything you send to me.

Hello Nick,

Yo Nicky wake up man! I offered you those x-rays two weeks ago!
I hadn't heard back from you until I opened this post. Contact
me privately and we'll work out the details. Thanx for the
offer. Are these guys willing to go on the record? That's a
major issue for us. We'll provide the material and any other
info they may need but, (fer or agin) we will want them to put
it in writing. To provide a report of their analysis for us. Any
and all information will be posted here, -publicly- for all.


Re: Mr Simms

I _have_ met him. And I've seen some of the 'advice' and
'counselling' that he offers to abductees and their families.
(***Just my opinion,) I think he's full of sh*t and himself.

If you're just a member of the interested public, then Derrel
Simms is a simple case of 'Buyer Beware'. If you're an abductee
it's a whole different animal. One with big sharp teeth.

=========================

Contact me and we'll work out the details for the transfer and
return of the x-rays. As long as your guys are willing to put
their names to a report, let's rock & roll! This kind of
research (no matter what it shows) deserves to be in the hands
of the people.

*On the record: You may deliver a copy of the findings to
Errol for publication on this list _before_ you send it to me.
This way it's all _above board_ and _out in the open._

Peace,

John Velez, a charlatans' nightmare

________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________







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   Dec > Dec 18

               Sighting's On The Rise - Expert, Alice Springs

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:55:48 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:45:56 -0500
Subject: Sighting's On The Rise - Expert, Alice Springs


The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
tkbnetw@fan.net.au

*************************************************************
UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number
                       1800 77 22 88 Free Call
*************************************************************


Local paper: Northern Territory NEWS
Source: Keith Douglass.
Date: 14th 12.98

UFO Sighting's on the rise: expert

 By MARIA BILLIAS

UFO reports in the Territory have increased astronomically, with
the latest Sightings occurring in Katherine yesterday morning.

UFO Researcher Keith Douglass of Unidentified Flying Objects
Research, Alice Springs, yesterday said UFO sightings were
reported  to him every two or three days. And he said reports
had soared, not just in the Territory, but all over the world.

Mr Douglass said: "It's bigger than anyone could imagine. "UFO
sighting is on the increase because it's becoming more
acceptable not to be called an idiot.

TENNIS

"A lot of people are seeing them in the Territory especially,
with strange lights being reported on average every tow or three
days. Mr. Douglass said the most recent sighting came from
Katherine early yesterday morning, with two tennis-sized red
ball illuminating the sky. He said: "I got the report from a
couple of different people saying they were about 2-3km up in
the sky and 2am". Mr. Douglass said while he was unsure where
these lights came from he firmly believed that they were not a
hoax. He said: "I think there is something going on out there.

Sighting Report: Alice Springs
Date: 14.th 12. 1998
Time: 2.10am
Location: Rapid Creek
Source: Keith Douglass Independent UFO Researcher Alice Springs.

Witness:
Warwick 'S' said: The time was 2.10am I had gone out side to
have a smoke and enjoy the beautiful night/ early morning. I
said a prayer, looked up and around the Milky Way that hung
there in the sky. I saw a shooting star and then to my right a
flashing light approaching, the lights caught my attention. At
first I thought it was a plane as the Airport isn't far away. It
flew past me slowly observing me and letting me observe them. It
maintained the same speed around (5 km/h ) and then flew out to
sea.

Height: Around 20meters up, or a 3-story block of units in height.

Objects lights: blue, red, yellow, and orange

Duration: 10 min

Shape: Oval with light through the middle of it

How did you feel: Scared, excited, overwhelmed, spun out, and
disappointed sort of because they didn't stop to chat.

Regards Diane Harrison










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   Dec > Dec 18

                   Hynek At The United Nations - 11-27-78

From: John Tenney <mainorg@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:40:34 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:04:24 -0500
Subject: Hynek At The United Nations - 11-27-78


Dr. J. Allen Hynek
Speaking at the United Nations
Nov. 27th 1978

---------------------------------

Mr. Chairman:

I am delighted to have been invited by Sir Eric Gairy and the
Grenada Mission to speak to this committee on behalf of many of
my scientific colleagues about the subject of Unidentified
Flying Objects. Many years ago, in conversation with His
Excellency, U Thant, I was informed by him that protocol
demanded that a member nation first bring a subject up in the
General Assembly before any action on that subject could be
initiated.

Now, many years later, one of the smallest nations on the Earth
has courageously introduced the perplexing subject of UFOs to
the General Assembly, and thus made possible this meeting today.
I commend the initiative his excellency Sir Eric Gairy has
taken; he has trod where mightier nations have feared to tread.

Mr. Chairman, there exists today a world-wide phenomenon...
indeed if it were not world-wide I should not be addressing you
and these representatives from many parts of the world. There
exists a global phenomenon the scope and extent of which is not
generally recognized. It is a phenomenon so strange and foreign
to our daily terrestrial mode of thought that it is frequently
met by ridicule and derision by persons and organizations
unacquainted with the facts. Yet, the phenomenon persists; it
has not faded away as many of us expected it would when, years
ago, we regarded it as a passing fad or whimsy. Instead, it has
touched on the lives of an increasing number of people around
the world.

I refer, of course, to the phenomenon of UFOs... Unidentified
Flying Objects... which I should like to define here simply
as �any aerial or surface sighting, or instrumental recording
(e.g., radar, photography, etc.) which remains unexplained by
conventional methods even after competent examination by
qualified persons.

You will note, Mr. Chairman, that this definition says nothing
about little green men from outer space, or manifestations from
spiritual realms, or various psychic manifestations. It simply
states an operational definition. A cardinal mistake, and a
source of great confusion, has been the almost universal
substitution of an interpretation of the UFO phenomenon for the
phenomenon itself.

This is akin to having ascribed the Aurora Borealis to angelic
communication before we understood the physics of the solar
wind.

Nonetheless, in the popular mind the UFO phenomenon is
associated with the concept of extra-terrestrial intelligence
and this might yet prove to be correct in some context. Surely
it would be a huge joke on all of us should it develop that
evidence for extra-terrestrial intelligence was right here under
our noses all the time while great effort was spent searching
for it elsewhere!

But I repeat and emphasize, Mr. Chairman, that the global
phenomenon of UFO reports, reports frequently made by highly
responsible persons, is not yet understood. Yet it is a
phenomenon that has claimed the interest and attention of
millions of people. In the United States alone, the Gallup Poll
has not only shown a remarkably high awareness on the part of
the public of the UFO subject, but indicates that 57% of the
U.S. population... thus well over a hundred million persons...
believe that UFOs are real and not a figment of the imagination.

The terms Flying Saucers and UFOs now appear in the dictionaries
of many countries... itself a sure sign of the popular
awareness. Thus we have the terms:

O.V.N.I.-Objetos Voladores Non ldentificados in the Latin
American countries and Spain Soucoupe Volante in France
Fliegende Untertasen in Germany Letaiici Talire in Czech And so
on in a host of other languages.

The subject is truly in the minds of many peoples. Indeed,
according to our records UFOCAT UFO reports have been assembled
from 133 different countries! as you probably already have noted
from the material furnished you.

I must also emphasize here, Mr. Chairman, that were it so that
these reports, albeit their global nature, were solely generated
by irresponsible and ignorant persons, I should not be here this
morning. The facts are quite otherwise: UFO reports in
significant numbers have been made by highly responsible
persons, to wit: astronauts, radar experts, military and
commercial pilots... many, many of these... officials of
governments, and scientists, even including astronomers!

We have on record many tens of thousands of UFO reports. Even
granting that by no means all of these are of high quality, they
include extremely intriguing and provocative accounts of strange
events experienced by highly reputable persons... events which
challenge our present conception of the world about us and which
may indeed signal a need for a change in some of these
concepts... a point brought out some time ago in a radio
broadcast to the French nation by the then Minister of Defense,
M. Robert Galley, stressing the importance of investigating the
truly unknown.


In a radio interview on Feb. 21, 1974 he stated:

"I must say that if your listeners could see for themselves the
mass of reports coming in from the airborne gendarmerie, from
the mobile gendarmerie, and from the gendarmerie charged with
the job of conducting investigations, all of which reports are
being forwarded by us to C.N.E.S. (National Center for Space
Studies), then they would see that it is all pretty disturbing.
My view about the gendarmerie is that they are serious people.
When they draw up a report, they don� t do it haphazardly. But I
must tell you that in fact the number of these gendarmerie
reports is very great and they are greatly varied. The whole
thing is, of course, still very fragmentary but I must emphasize
that, in this UFO business, it is essential to preserve an
extremely open mind."

Much of the UFO data are "hard", not necessarily as that term
would be used by the physicist, but certainly "harder" than much
of the data used in the social sciences and in the practice of
law.

Perhaps the hardest data we possess so far are the so-called
Close Encounters of the Second Kind, otherwise known as the
Physical Trace cases. These are the cases in which it is
reported that concommittant and simultaneously with the
occurence of a UFO event, there appears physical evidence of the
immediate presence of the UFO. This can take the form of
immediate physical effects on either animate or inanimate
matter, or on both. Thus, physiological effects on humans and
animals and plants have been very reliably reported, as have the
interference with electrical systems in the immediate vicinity
and the appearance of disturbed regions on the ground also in
the immediate vicinity of the reported UFO event. Now over
thirteen hundred physical trace cases are on record.

Mr. Chairman, any phenomenon which touches the lives of so many
people, and which engenders puzzlement and even fear among them,
is therefore not only of potential scientific interest and
significance but also of sociological and political
significance, especially since it carries with it many
implications of the existence of intelligences other than our
own. I will confine my remarks, however, to the scientific
aspects of the subject. Dr. Vallee will, I believe, address
himself more directly to the sociological, and hence, likewise
political aspects of the phenomenon.

Speaking then for myself as an astronomer, and I believe for
many of my colleagues as well, there is no longer any question
in my mind of the importance of this subject. It is my
considered opinion, based on many years of study, both as
Scientific Consultant to the U.S. Air Force, and in recent
years, as an involved scientist, that the UFO phenomenon
whatever its origin may turn out to be, is eminently worthy of
study.

And I am by no means alone in this opinion. There is today a
growing community of scientists, from many countries, who have
declared an interest, either privately or openly, in pursuing
the challenge presented by the UFO problem, and who are
gathering and analyzing the relevant data.

This appears to be especially the case in France and in the
United States, though this conclusion may simply arise because I
know more about the situation in these two countries. I do have
knowledge that France has assumed a leading role in the
scientific approach to UFOs. Acting under instruction the French
Gendarmerie diligently undertook the investigation of many UFO
reports. Their investigations in turn provided material for
further study by a scientific group headed by Dr. Claude Poher,
of CNES, called GEPAN. This group comprised specialists from
many disciplines, not only those of physical science but in
psychology and the social sciences, and in law and medicine as
well. The work of this group was reviewed by an independent
scientific board from the parent organization, CNES, and the
group was given instructions to proceed on an expanded and
well-funded basis.

This further work, I understand, has not materially advanced
and, it is further my understanding from reliable sources that
its initial results comprises work done on cases of high
strangeness and high credibility. Only one of the cases was
found, I have been told, to have a conventional explanation. The
others were "Close Encounter" cases, that is, UFOs reportedly
occurring within approximately 200 meters of the witnesses, and
two of these were re-ported to be Close Encounters of the Third
Kind... that is, those in which the presence of intelligent
beings is reported. It has also been reported that the care with
which the measurement of directions, distances, and maneuvers,
as well as the evaluation of psychological factors involved,
were carried out was exemplary and far superior to the previous
studies in other countries.

For most of the cases carefully studied, it was concluded that
the UFO report involved a material phenomenon that could not be
explained as a natural phenomenon or a human device. If my
information is correct, then the implications for science and
the public at large of this French investigation are profound.
The history of science abounds with unlooked for benefits
resulting from the investigation of the unknown.

Who can tell what benefits might accrue from the study of UFOsl
It might well lead to the solution of many pressing problems
facing man-kind today.

But we need not base our opinions or actions solely on the
French in-vestigations, as competent as they may have been.
Similar conclusions have already been drawn indepen-dently by
scientists with whom I have been associated, many of whom,
however, have been reluctant to express their opinions openly.
There is a surprisingly large number of individual scientists
who have expressed to me, privately and personally, their
involved concern with the challenge of the UFO phenomenon, and
who entertain opinions consistent with those of the French
report. These scientists are in many cases associated with large
and prestigious scientific organizations, both government and
private, which, as organizations are silent or even officially
derisiveabout the UFO phenomenon. The individuals within these
organizations who have intimate knowledge of the UFO phenomenon
are restrained by organizational policy to remain officially
silent about their interest and in private work with UFO
matters.

There are many others, not so restrained, who are independently,
or in small groups, quietly studying the subject with whatever
means they have at hand.

It is the scientists and specialists in both these categories
that are the main concern of my address to you today, Mr.
Chairman. These persons have no means by which they can share
the results of their researches with other workers, or pool them
for the benefit of others, as is standard practice in scientific
matters. There is for them nothing remotely resembling the World
Health Organ-ization or the World Meteorological Organization
through which they can pool and share the results of their
researches and learn what colleagues are doing in the field. Nor
is there any non-governmental organization to serve this
purpose. Collectively, these scientists possess information and
results which, in my opinion, are important and should be shared
with their colleagues elsewhere. I stress that all that is
needed is a mechanism whereby such interchange can be
accomplished; the actual investigative and analytical processes
remain the responsibility of the scientists in their respective
countries.

I am not, therefore, Mr. Chairman... and I emphasize the
"not"... asking that the United Nations organization create its
own commission to conduct researches into the UFO field, but
merely one to provide a means whereby work and investigations
already carried out and accomplished by scientists in their own
countries can be expeditiously disseminated to their colleagues
in other countries.

Specifically, then, Mr. Chairman, I ask, on behalf of my
colleagues in this and other countries, that you recommend
through appropriate channels, that there be devised a mechanism
within the United Nations Organization whereby scientists and
other specialists in member nations can bring together and
interchange their ideas and their investigative work with
colleagues in other member nations. Mr. Chairman, I seek your
advice and help on how such a procedure might be brought into
being without financial burden to the United Nations
Organization and without disruption of the many other vital
activities of this organization.

Such a mechanism, Mr. Chairman, would also facilitate the
immediate exchange of information about current UFO activity in
member nations.

Thus, for instance, and solely as an example, there appeared a
short while ago a brief news item about a UFO sighting made in
Kuwait by a number of highly qualified engineers.

It is obviously important that concerned scientists in all parts
of the world be informed whether, there is any merit whatever in
such a report, and if so, to assist in the investigation and
analysis of the reported events. Enormous amounts of UFO data at
present remain in the "newsclip" status, and data of high
potential significance to science and the world is continually
being lost for lack of a means to prevent its loss.

The creation of such a mechanism would also provide means
whereby concerned scientists in member nations can become known
to each other, and can therefore furnish each other with their
already completed research work or with progress reports
thereof.

Mr. Chairman, we are dealing here with an unexplained phenomenon
which has been reported so far from 133 nations, and which has
aroused the concern, and often the fear, of significant
fractions of their population. Virtually all 133 countries are
member states of the United Nations. It is a phenomenon which
therefore has great possible sociological and political
implications, as well as scientific potential. It is surely
within the purport of the United Nations Organization to
seriously consider this request that I make on behalf of my
scientific colleagues everywhere.

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, let me once again clearly state
that it is my considered opinion, as a scientist who has devoted
many years to its study, that the UFO phenomenon is real and not
the creation of disturbed minds, and that it has both grave and
important implications for science and for the political and
social well-being of the peoples of this Earth. It is therefore,
in my opinion, worthy of cognizance by the United Nations
Organization, and worthy of study as a phenomenon. I distinguish
sharply here, as do my colleagues, between any given theory of
the UFO such as, for example, that they originate in some
specific solar system, and the phenomenon itself, a situation
which would put the cart before the horse.

Mr. Chairman, I have not always held the opinion that UFOs were
worthy of serious scientific study. I began my work as
Scientific Consultant to the U.S. Air Force as an open skeptic,
in the firm belief that we were dealing with a mental aberration
and a public nuisance. Only in the face of stubborn facts and
data similar to those studied by the French commission... have I
been forced to change my opinion. I recognize, Mr. Chairman,
that an opinion, no matter on what insights or experience it is
based, still does not constitute positive proof. The creation of
a mechanism within the United Nations to facilitate the exchange
and translation of UFO reports and studies made in various
member nations will, I firmly believe, hasten the day when this
opinion will be translated into firm scientific knowledge.

The UFO phenomenon, as studied by my colleagues and myself,
bespeaks the action of some form of intelligence... but whence
this intelligence springs, whether it is truly
extra-terrestrial, or bespeaks a higher reality not yet
recognized by science, or even if it be in some way or another a
strange psychic manifestation of our own intelligence, is much
the question. We seek your help, Mr. Chairman, in assisting
scientists, and particularly those already associated with the
many formal and informal investigative organizations around the
world, by providing a clearing house procedure whereby the work
already going on globally can be brought together in a serious,
concentrated approach to this most outstanding challenge to
current science.

-----

--------------------------------------
brought to you by:
Michigan Anomalous Information Network
http://members.tripod.com/~mainorg
mainorg@yahoo.com
--------------------------------------
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1-248-873-9987







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   Dec > Dec 18

                      Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?

From: Diane Lovett <rambld@erols.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:56:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:09:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?


>From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:55:55 EST
>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Triangle Craft over Baghdad??!

>On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:35:17 Steve wrote:

>>Did anyone see the triangle shaped pattern of lights that
>>appeared briefly during an attack over Baghdad on the live CNN
>>nightvision video a few minutes ago at 3:31 pm PT?

>I did see a triangular formation of lights very briefly at about
>4:55 EST on an NBC-TV news report of the bombing of Baghdad. The
>lights were steady and it was a definite and very striking
>V-shaped formation like those at Phoenix. It was against a black
>night sky and very different than the 'greenish' tracer flare
>images of the sky, which did not hold their positions for any
>length of time like the V-shaped light formation did. I thought
>it was peculiar and tried to find a repeat of that on later
>reports so I could tape it, but never saw a replay of it, though
>all the other video shots of the bombings were repeated. Perhaps
>somebody out there can also confirm this and even possibly might
>have a VCR recording of it.


Steve and Ignatius, List,

I did see something very much like what you describe here, as
well as a couple other things that reminded me a lot of the
Phoenix videos. I did not have a tape in though as it hadn't
occurred to me to be taping! It may well be worth popping in a
tape throughout CNN's coverage during Iraq's night hours for the
duration though. I am curious to know if others saw this stuff





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                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 09:44:13 PST
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:15:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:32:47 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>I wish to thank Jerry Clark for the bit of information
>concerning Sherm Larsen's garage where so many NICAP files were
>"preserved" for transference to CUFOS.

>I have been reliably informed that these NICAP files had been
>stripped of selected government and sensitive documents before
>the transferral was made to CUFOS.

>Today, thanks to Mr. Clark's good work we have a pretty good
>idea of who removed those documents.

Note that rather than produce evidence, in spite of repeated
challenges from me and others, Gary simply escalates his claims
into the upper atmosphere of the paranoid and the unverified.
Note that he did not even know where the NICAP files were until
I told him; then all of a sudden we learn that he has been
"reliably informed" that the files were stripped by Larsen. I
urge those who believe that to contact me as soon as possible,
to hear about the good deal I can give them on the Brooklyn
Bridge.

>One of the reasons I post to Updates is because the discussion
>generated can sometimes reveal important information, for
>instance, the fact that Sherm Larsen is the party that turned
>over NICAPs files to CUFOS and that they had been meticulously
>cared for, by the same person who probably removed the
>government and sensitive documents referred to earlier.

Not to sound like a broken record, Gary, but where's your
evidence? I look forward eagerly to your next evasion of that
simple question.

Jerry Clark






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                      Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 02:50:57 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:21:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?


>From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:55:55 EST
>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Triangle Craft over Baghdad??!

>On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:35:17 Steve wrote:

>>Did anyone see the triangle shaped pattern of lights that
>>appeared briefly during an attack over Baghdad on the live CNN
>>nightvision video a few minutes ago at 3:31 pm PT?

>I did see a triangular formation of lights very briefly at about
>4:55 EST on an NBC-TV news report of the bombing of Baghdad.

Yes, and it was there momentarily and is no way evidence that a
triangular craft was over Baghdad. I suppose it was only a
matter of time before the fantastic took over from the
realistic.

Under no circumstances would the US and/or UK, both of whom have
their triangular a/c, operate at such a low altitude either in
terms of a mission or for the benefit of the live TV audience.

This kind of twaddle just shows how far removed Ufology is from
reality.

Three lights do NOT a triangle make.

I hope they get Hussein. Support our troops in the Gulf!

Tim X






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                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:55:15 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:23:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:06:12 -0500

<snip>

>Oh, Michael....please.

>Leanne has a right not to believe abductions are real. At the
>moment there's no scientific proof of their reality.

>Nor does she slander abductees by not believing. She can, for
>instance, conclude that they're honestly reporting what they
>believe happened, but that they're mistaken.

>Some abductees find this difficult to swallow, I know. But they
>themselves, many of them, were at first wary of accepting that
>their abductions are real. Surely abductees and abduction
>believers can understand that abductions are a stretch for many
>perfectly sympathetic people -- and that if someone like Leanne
>wants to wait for genuine proof, she's not slandering abductees
>by doing so.


Dear Greg, Leanne & List,

Many people who claim abduction experiences have already run the
gauntlet so many times, that to find disbelief in places which
are perceived as friendly, is an insult too difficult to bear.

It's a knee jerk reaction, I think.  It is for me.  One of the
most difficult problems which I find impossible to control is
anger.  And I believe that the anger has many sources, not the
least among these is born of a level of frustration which cannot
be understood except, perhaps, by another abductee.

There is the frustration of not being able to stop theses events
from happening, of not being in control when they do happen, of
having to live with it while simultaneously being held in
ridicule (altho I sense this is diminishing lately) and a whole
host of other reasons.

Ad to this the final insult (again, this is a perception I
harbor and is my own personal opinion), ad to this, a statement
of disbelief form "one of our kind" so to speak, and you have a
roiling pot overflowing with anger.

I do so hate to quote Dylan again (I lie like a rug, don't I!?)
but I feel compelled to do so, "When you aint got no faith, then
you got unblief."  And when that unbelief comes from one of us,
it's too hard to swallow.

Just my own two cents.... now for the coop de grassy (sic, coup
de grass), some of us are not able to control that anger. I
admit to being one of those folks. My threshold is low.  Others
unlike me, manage to control it.  I cannot.  Not as yet, anyway.
I am trying.  Very trying at that.

And so this post is not an excuse for avoiding admonition,
rather it is an explanation for deserving it, eh? (for EBK).

Dylan also wrote, "One more cup of coffee for the road. One more
cup of coffee 'for I go...... to the valley below."

I would like to change those lyrics to suit this occasion. "One
more glass of fresh wine for the road.... etc." I had to get
that commercial in for my friend and employer,
Dr. Gesundt.  Hope you don't mind.

Gesundt's Fresh Wines
666 Canal Street
Nueva York
1-212-555-1235
(1234 was not available)





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                                 Help Needed

From: Sean Jones <Tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:16:48 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:24:43 -0500
Subject: Help Needed


Hi people

I'm looking for two articles or information on etc etc and I was
wondering if any of you learned people 'out there' could help me
please.

1) A little while ago there was a story about some science lab
transmitting a concerto/concert via tachyon beam at speeds
calculated to be faster than light.

2) Recently there was another article about the universe.
Apparently todays scientists have "discovered" that the universe
is actualy bigger than they first thought.

Well there you go people, any help pointing me in the direction
of where I can get copies of the article from and/or copies of
said I would be very grateful. Either email me directly or
through the list, many thanks.

---
    In an infinite universe inifinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
         Research page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/





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   Dec > Dec 18

                             Moore UFO Sighting

From: Joel Carpenter <ufx@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:39:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:30:01 -0500
Subject: Moore UFO Sighting


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:00:35 -0500
>Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:57:10 -0500
>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

The most complete description I've found is in NICAP's 'The UFO
Evidence', pages 2-3.  This was quoted directly from a book by
J. Gordon Vaeth (Moore's supervisor) titled "200 Miles Up -- The
Conquest of the Upper Air," 1956...

----------------------------------------------------------------


It should be noted that although Vaeth implies that he was
present and saw the object too, he was not. He arrived at the
launch site immediately after the sighting and thus his account
is SECOND HAND. Moore's is the one to base analysis on.

- Joel Carpenter





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                      Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:59:12 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:34:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?


>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:40:47 +0100 (MET)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: c

<snip>

>I saw the triangle too and recognized it as the tree stars
>Deneb, Wega and Altair. The only movement they made was
>in relation to the movement of the camera. The relative
>positions of the stars matched. I watch the skies very often
>with my girlfriend and we have fun remembering the names
>of the stars.

Hi everyone,

Ignatius saw the triangular formation of lights live on T.V. at
15:31 PT. Since PT = UT (or GMT) + 8 hours and Baghdad is UT - 3
hours, the lights were seen a total of 11 hours later or 02:31
Baghdad time. At such an early time, the three lights that Henny
identified as Deneb, Vega and Altair (they make up the "Summer
Triangle") would have been below the horizon. When the these
three stars are visible in the sky at the same time, they are so
far apart from each other that one would never confuse these
three bright stars as a UFO.

Any other possible suggestions for what these three lights may
have been, other than lights directly related to the missile
attack on Baghdad?

Nick Balaskas






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                       Re: Abductees: Ethnic Breakdown

From: "J. Rimmer" <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:21:50 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:37:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductees: Ethnic Breakdown


>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:46:13 -0500
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Abductees: Ethnic Breakdown

>In response to the request for stats on the ethnicity of
>abductees I conducted a little internal survey of the membership
>of AIC. I only recieved 19 responses but they were interesting
>so I thought I'd share them.

>I hope others respond. I'm interested to see how it all adds up.
>I hope this helps in your effort to obtain these statistics. It
>needs doing. So little basic research has been done at all, that
>the field is virtually wide open. I'm glad to see things getting
>done. Glad to be able to contribute.


Me too, but remember that when I first suggested that the
ethnicity of abductees might be a valid subject for discussion I
got a pretty rough ride from people on this list. Still, now the
investigation's started I congratulate John Velez on being
open-minded enough to take it onboard.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine,
a division of the P.L.A. Driftwood International Cartel
www.magonia.demon.co.uk





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                 Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:24:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:40:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help


>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:24:33 -0800 (PST)
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction Evidence -- Request For Help


>Now, a question. How can you ask that we not re-post the file to
>anyone else if you first posted it to us, via the list, without
>our permission? Will we need to ask the legal minds on this list
>whether your request to not repost, copy or republish it could
>be binding? Offhand, it seems to me that your request must
>either be tongue-in-cheek or have the "ulterior motive" behind
>it of getting  the x-ray.gif file circulated to as many others
>as might be interested (reverse psychology). You may wish to
>clarify your position on this!

>   Jim D.

Hi Jim,

You're kidding right?

I'm not a lawyer. I have been a member of this list for about
four years. I (asked) the members of this list _not_ to repost
the x-ray because it is _private_property_ and a part of some
ones medical records. I look upon the members of this list as
peers and in some cases friends. It's the honor system. I am
hoping that people will respect my wishes/request. How you read
all that 'double meaning' stuff into my carefully worded request
is beyond me.

I meant just what I said Jim. Nothing more, nothing less.

I hope that people will comply. This list means a lot to me.
There is always material on UpDates that you cannot get anywhere
else. Because I think so much of Errol and you all I enjoy
contributing (unique) material once in a while. It's what makes
the list special. I would hate to lose confidence and respect
for the list and its  members (or worse yet, not feel as if I am
able to post freely) because one or two 'thieves' choose to
disregard my request and rip off material that does not belong
to them and that was posted for their own edification to start
with.

There's always a joker in the deck. I'm counting on the members
of this list to be above that. Contrary to your interpretation,
I believe everyone understood perfectly what I meant by -Do not
reproduce this material!- I'm surprised that you had trouble
understanding it.

Do not repost/reproduce/republish in any form.

What part of that didn't you understand?

If you are genuinely geateful that I posted something like the
x-ray then show your appreciation by respecting my request. I
can't be any plainer than that.

Peace,

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________





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             Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out

From: Christophe Meessen <meessen@cppm.in2p3.fr>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:09:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:44:30 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out


>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:33:47 +0000
>From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>,
>Subject: Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out

While this mail is unpleasantly violent, I would like to say
that I understand Mr Stephens reaction.

This CAUS incident is in my opinion a sad day for ufology. I
hope it becomes as soon as possible history and never happens
again.

Such syndromes has been regularly seen before on Internet and is
just the Internet version of a rumor like phenomenon. This type
of behaviour will certainly not help to give credibility to
serious ufology researcher spending a lot of time, energy and
money to understand and find the explanation of the UFO
phenomenon.

People responsible of it or entertaining such "non events" or
"3D fictions" are the ball and chain or I should say "pan and
chain" of ufology.


Mr. Stephens,

What we are all looking for is simply to understand what UFOs
are.

While some "ufologist" behave in a totally irresponsible way,
many are serious and do a very good job and, most of the time,
they will not have a Web page and post 10 mails per day on
internet. They don't talk or write, they work. So you may not
have looked in the right place to find the real ufologist when
looking at web pages and dummy ufology mailing lists.

In front of irresponsible behaviour like seen with the CAUS
incident, I understand that NASA and other official institution
are very reluctant to cooperate with our research. But it is
important to understand that while the NASA and official
institution does not establish an official and effective contact
with serious ufology researcher and organisations and give them
a public credibility by this, the field is left open to pinguins
running arround shouting that the UFOs are landing.

The result is that, on one side, no official institution want to
be involved in the ufo research field, and on the other, serious
and responsible ufologist can't be heard and taken seriously
because those pinguins are making too much noise and attracting
all the other people's attention.

This situation might last long, until there will be an accident.
You may have heard about this radio broadcast, fifty years ago,
simulating a UFO attack and resulting in a big panic. You know
now how hard it is to stop such irrational mass movements. The
possiblity of such situations is in my opinion a serious
_security matter_ which should not leave the authorities in
charge of people's security indifferent !

The NASA and official institution that don't take the
appropriate actions to preserve us from such incidents are thus
also indirectly responsible of the situation, and not victims as
you apparently tend to say.

What would be the appropriate action ? Start an official,
public, transparent and effective collaboration with the ufo
research community with a selection of the most serious and
responsible ufo researcher. It is important that they are
independent, competent and  respected ufologist. Kick out of
this collaboration all tourists, irrational and irresponsible
"ufologist". It should not be hard to find such serious
ufologists, there are many. But they don't make much noise, so
you might thus have to search a bit to find them.

My point is that if NASA and official organisations would work
with us, we could bring some rational in the field and bring an
end to all the nonesense we hear on ufology which might in some
case become a danger for people's security or was so unpleasant
for you.

If you doubt about the possible success of such collaboration
you should look at the Belgian UFO flap case in which a close
collaboration between the Belgian army and the independent
SOBEPS organisation took place. There were of course those usual
claims about consipracy and such but with this collaboration
people could be reassured: the Belgian army did not hide
anything. SOBEPS people are independent people and they would
have stopped the named collaboration if it was not honnest and
effective. i.e. For security reason access to radar information
was only given to one serious and competent ufologist. But he
could have access to any radar recording he wanted, militray and
civilian. In the end, this collaboration has proven to be very
usefull for the SOBEPS _and_ the army because it resulted in a
better understanding of radar artefacts and enhancement
suggestions.

This collaboration was positive for the three actors. The army
who increased it's credibility and people's trust in them
because they showed that way that they had nothing to hide, the
SOBEPS who had access to precious data for it's research and the
population who was reassured that the unexplained phenomenon was
in serious hands and taken care of by an officially "blessed"
and independent ufo organisation. The country kept it's serenity
and no controverse like we can see in the US took place.

As long as your NASA and other official institutions don't
understand that this is the only viable way to go, there will be
other CAUS incidents which may one day lead to more dramatic
incidents like this group of people in the US comitting a group
suicide to join an extraterrestral aircraft hiding behind a
comet or you hitting a poor brainless pinguin.

The risk of such incident is growing because of these XFiles &Co
series which is in some way "loading the gun". This films mix up
data heard in the real world and fictionnal data in such a way
that it's hard to sort out what is real and not. This is, in my
opinion, also one of the reason of their success, because people
think that they are in some way learning something on the
subject. But most of it is just fictional. The risk is that
people looses their common sens on these subjects and this is
potentially dangerous.

I can understand that you are exhausted and disgust by your
desperate attempts to learn pinguins a little common sens. My
conclusion would be that you were probably talking to the wrong
people.

All we want is to solve the UFO mystery and work in serenity,
and we need two things for it : informations and common sense.
You have both. If you share the same objective then lets work
together and help us.
Otherwise, please pass your way.

Best regards,






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   Dec > Dec 18

                       Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec

From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:26:56 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:47:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec


>From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Sighting - Montreal, Quebec
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:13:14 -0500

<snip>

>This sighting has been demystified; it was publicity lights of a
>new type.

>We spoked to the owner of a Bar named 'The Underground', located
>in the city of Marieville 20 km S.E of Montreal, which used these
>lights for a special event over the weekend.

>We at the A.Q.U. have received many sighting reports related to
>these lights.

>Case closed.

Hi Gilles,

One down, thousands to go. There's been more than a few reports
in the last couple of years due chiefly to Search-Lights and
lasers being pointed skyward and reflecting off clouds during
some kind of event like a rock concert, or as you mentioned, a
sales promotion.

Best,





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                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:26:29 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:02:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:59:22 PST

<snip>

>Is this stirring enough? I can go on more if you like . . .
>
>Regards,
>Leanne  ];-)


Leanne...

No, that was quite sufficient, thank you.  You've made your
point and voiced your opinion, to which you are more than
entitled as a person, let alone a member of this list.  I quite
realize that sometimes, perhaps too often, I make light of
things thru what I call a sense of humor.  Actually, it is not
so much a sense of humor as it is a catharsis of an hysterical
nature.  When upset, some people yell and scream, some weep,
some kid around.  I do all of the above, but I try hard to keep from
weeping in public places as I try harder to avoid being heard
yelling and screaming.  Which is what your words makes me
want to do.

Let me comment on some of your statements.

You ask, "Where's the evidence?"  Then you say,

>I do in fact think that life, in some forms, exists outside of
>Terra. I like to think that is possible that alien life has
>visited, or will visit us, if it does indeed exist. Until I see
>some empirical evidence of visitation then I see no reason to
>have 'faith' as I am not religious.

I do not wish to pick nits, but in one paragraph you ask for
evidence and the next, say that it is possible that  ET's have
visited us, and qualify that by saying, "...if, indeed, they
exist."

Let's forget about that last caveat and work with the premise
that ET has likely visited us.  You say that there is no
evidence for the abduction experience but there is photographic
evidence for UFOs existing in pictures. In fact you use the
words "... obviously UFOs exist..."

As "Unidentified" objects for sure, but you do acknowledge the
likelihood of ET and the possibility that he has visited us, on
photographic evidence.

But let me demonstrate a thing which frustrates me more than my
sightings or perceived abduction experiences, a thing which
angers me to distraction.

You use all the words which degrade, humble and, humiliate those
of us who claim the experience with very strong words. I am
quite sure in fact, that you really do not mean to use those
words with the intention of degrading, otherwise, I would not
even bother to answer your post.  I would, rather, chalk it up
to just another mean SOB who's sole purpose was to denigrate.
In fact, it reminds me of a word that I used which was very
inappropriate, the use of which I apologized to you personally
and to this list.  However...

Hear follow the words you used...

>rhetoric, dreams, schizoid ramblings, stories, unreliable
> sources, deluded, ... and, believe it or not - not even the
>true-life experiences of real abductees.

>Show me

I do believe I did just that, Leanne...  I showed you your own
words.  Now, if you were a person of say, higher than average
intelligence, a person who has been psychoanalyzed, tested and
certified normal, with an IQ of greater than 145, a respectable
member of society, a decent man or woman who has managed, in
these difficult times, to maintain a level of self-respect and
respectability in all other areas of life, a person such as
this... does _NOT_ in your own words, constitute evidence, but
pictures do?

Leanne, there is something wrong with your conclusions.  Just by
your own words, you demonstrate a level of, if not anger, then
certainly, negativity, which to me at least, tells me just how
strongly you feel on this subject.  Because it represents a high
emotional state suggestive of anger and negativity.

So, Leanne, what's your problem?

Jim Mortellaro, Ph.D.





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 18

                        London, UK sighting 12-16-98

From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:41:31 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:05:34 -0500
Subject: London, UK sighting 12-16-98


Hi Errol & List

Enclosed is the latest sighting we have been reported,
its also by one of our members.

DATE: 16/12/98

TIME: between 9.05 - 9.10am GMT

LOCATION: Manthorpe Road (leading into Brewery Rd,
London SE18 England)

OTHER WITNESSES: the witnesses 2 children

SKY: clear blue, slight patchy cloud, mainly near horizons

SUN: below building height, but light condition

VISIBILITY: good

OBJECT: solid, white cylinder, smooth, but reflective surface,
with rounded ends, no visible wings, markings or other
appendages, no trail. (descibed as 'like a slow moving missile)

DURATION: approx 1 minute (no watch)

SPEED: slower than a normal aircraft (this is usually quite a
busy flightpath & within 2 miles of the Docklands City Airport).
Speed remained constant and the object finally disappared into
thin cloud cover near the horizon.

DIRECTION OF TRAVEL: from Abbey Wood towards central London, in
a dead straight line (East to West). Commercial aircraft in this
area are usually: a) small light aircraft (from Docklands City
Airport) b) banking (part of 'stacking') coming in & out of
Heathrow c) at very high altitude

AIR TRAFFIC: none at time

SIZE: Dave said it was hard to estimate as there was no way to
judge its actual distance, 'if it was in a normal aircraft
flightpath it would have been about the size of a 737 at about
2-3 thousand feet, but thats just a guess'.

ACTION: (so far) approached other London based research groups
(inc: London UFO Studies etc) for any collaborative reports &
Heathrow airport for aircraft & radar details (Docklands City
Airport, refer all sightings on to Heathrow).

Dave is a 3D commercial graphics artist with extensive
experience in modelling aircraft for computer games. He says his
initial thought was Iraq was bombing London!

We would be interested to hear of any other confirmations in the
London area in connection with this sighting.... if there are
any?

All the best, Marc Bell






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                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 16:40:26 PST
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:07:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:30:01 -0800
>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:32:47 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:04:35 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>I wish to thank Jerry Clark for the bit of information
>>concerning Sherm Larsen's garage where so many NICAP files were
>>"preserved" for transference to CUFOS.

>>I have been reliably informed that these NICAP files had been
>>stripped of selected government and sensitive documents before
>>the transferral was made to CUFOS.

>It would be interesting to know just who this "reliable" source
>was. During the 1960s and 1970s, I visited NICAP a number of
>times. I copied material from the files and place material in
>the files. Pretty much I was given free rein to look at
>whatever I pleased. At the time a friend in Australia had a
>newspaper clipping services that covered Australia, New Zealand
>and England. He also sent material that was passed on to NICAP.

>There was not a large number of government documents in the
>NICAP files that I ever saw. Most of the government material
>that did exist were letters in answer to inquiries about cases,
>policies, etc.

>After reading this posting, I called Richard Hall, and asked him
>about the government material collected at NICAP. He confirmed
>that there was not much government material. Mostly if they got
>something that originated from the government, NICAP took it to
>the media. NICAP also published it in the UFO Investigator, UFO
>Evidence, or other publications. The idea was to demonstrate
>that the government, while debunking UFOs, was concerned enough
>to investigate them.

Ah, Jan, you think you can fool us? It's pretty clear, as
Gary-logic would inform us, that government agents such as
Keyhoe and Hall were deep-sixing the sensitive government
documents before you ever got to see them. Or maybe _you_ are a
government agent. Remember, Gary's already hinted darkly that
_I_ am one, so if I'm one -- and all you have to do is to
disagree with him to come under suspicion -- you might as well
be one, too. Why, I'll bet this list is crawling with others of
our kind. It's just too bad that Gary is too smart for us.

Fearfully,

Jerry Clark






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   Dec > Dec 18

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:11:04 PST
Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:29:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:31:33 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>This is so sad...You don't "believe", abductions happen in the
>first place...so sad..

This comment is sad, so sad . . . I don't have 'faith' that
these happen and that makes me a 'sad person' - what illogical
crap. Is this a religious List? When was EBK declared 'Il Papa
del OVNI' and the List a diocese?

Why should I be expected to believe something someone tells me
about an 'alien abduction' any more than some religious nut
ranting at me to have 'faith' in their belief that Mary was a
virgin in the medical sense and not in a socially specific
sense.

>In essence, you have virtually called every woman, or man, who
>have had some type horrifing experience, which in some cases has
>ended in the person commiting suiside, or being
>institutionalized, for many years, a liar! So sad...

If people believe in their own heart and soul that they have
been abducted by aliens then I believe that for them it is a
real-life experience.

It doesn't necessarily make it a factual occurrence in reality.
Show me the science!

>It is one thing to have our own _opinions_, but it is another
>thing to Post to a public mailing list that you doubt that such
>experiences happened.

"I know in my heart and soul that the earth is flat and that if
I sail too far in any one direction I will eventually fall into
space. I know this is true and you better belief me or you are a
sad, bad person!"

I don't object to you posting your quasi-religious abduction
belief system on the List so why should you object if I have,
and post, my quasi-religious non-abduction belief system on the
List? Haven't you heard of a right to free speech and religion?

>What does this "belief" have room for?  Have all of these
>people simply hallucinated?  Had bad dreams, or nightmares? Are
>they out to 'make a name for themselves'?

Basically yes! Where's the scientifically verifiable proof of it
being otherwise!

Bond told me of some people he knows who have had the 'abduction
experience' across 3 or 4 generations of women in the one family
line.

Looking at it logically: The great grandmother started it off
with some bad dreams, or some hallucinations, or a schizoid
development, possibly even a series of incest experiences or the
like. She evntually incorporated these experiences into her
psyche as an alien phenomenon in order to go on and adapt with
day-to-day life.

She eventually has a daughter to whom she transfers this
experience and expectation. How? The kid has nightmares (as do
we all) and her mothers worst fears come to life - "It's
happening to my little girl too!" So she gives the scared little
girl her interpretation of what happened and she, in turn,
adapts it into her life. And so on down to the present.

>While I may or may not accept the actuality of abductions, I
>will not make such a statment.  I do not feel I have the right
>to challange a person's personal statment that they have had
>some type of physical experience, since I was not there to
>witness what happened.  However, I can research their claims and
>then decide, based on what I find out, whether or not it is
>possible that what they claim could have happened....that is
>totally different than sitting at home and saying:  "I don't
>believe..."

Horses for courses. If you don't challenge, confront, query,
push, pull and probe for verification then you are not a good
researcher. That doesn't stop you from being a good counsellor,
though, as many of these people obviously need it.

Saying "I believe" is just as valid as "I don't believe" in
scientific terms but it is not, in and of itself, facts.

>If this is all 'brainwashing' by military or CIA, type bureaus,
>then they are doing a very good job of it.

The human mind, especially in a paranoid state, is amazingly
creative and will formulate any 'logical' conclusion for the
most illogical set of experiences, real or otherwise.

>If these people are simpy stressed out and have turned to drugs
>as a form of escapism, then there are several million such
>people around the world practicing this, based on the reports of
>numbers of people who allegedly have experienced this event.

If people truly believe it happened to them then well and good.
It doesn't mean I gotta believe it too just because I'm on the
List.

As always - show me facts!

Regards,
Leanne  ];-)






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   Dec > Dec 19

             Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out

From: Christophe Meessen <meessen@cppm.in2p3.fr>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:39:45 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:22:44 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out


>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:38:16 +0000
>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out

Excuse me but I have problems with the following claims.

>NORAD/Fence database shows no intruder for that date or from
>12-5-1998 to the current time (12-17-1998) in near or far Earth
>space. This is radii from 100,000 miles in all directions from
>Earth's surface. The Silver Veil Reconnaissance satellite, which
>is part of the 15 year old completed, whole-Earth recon and
>surveillance system detects any intruder into Earth's biome down
>to the size of a volleyball. It also detects all spectrums of
>wavelength data out to even femtophoton signals, themselves not
>yet clearly defined by science yet. Thus, even if an intruder
>'phases' into non-mass conditions, Fence will still register the
>intruder in fempto wave patterns. Nothing can broach this.

Do you have access to this database? Can you prove your claim?
What would prove us that you are not yourslef lying to us about
the database content and this NORAD/Fence and Silver Veil
detection capacity. Beside you are still vague about what
exactly is detected.

Could you give us more details on this NORAD/Fence and Silver
Veil?

Are these "tools" designed for detecting Earth's biome
intruders? What are the real purpose of these "tools"?

What are those surveiliance "tools" mesuring? radio wave echo?
Detecting EM waves? They should be able to localize sources of
detected signal, thus they would listen in specific directions.
In what direction do they listen?  Earth, space? If space why?
Do you mean this thing is a duplicate of the SETI work in more
efficient?

Could an hypothetical EM wave silent and EM wave absorbing
object still pass through this fence unoticed? I agree this
technology is not accessible for terrestrian today but I just
want to make sure if one can really fully outrule the
possibility of a solid object going through this fence and veil
unoticed (supposing your are giving the facts and not lying to
us).

You said in other mails that there are unexplained cases that I
guessed may have been detected by these tools. Could you give us
more information on these cases? Have there been any correlation
with visual contact?

I have some dates and locations I would be happy to check. Could
you do help us?

What about the Belgian UFO flap you in 89-91. Did your system





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   Dec > Dec 19

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:55:33 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:28:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:11:04 PST

>>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:31:33 -0600
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

Leanne, your choice of words is telling. Here are some of those
words taken out of context, but born in a level of derision
which words alone, demonstrate your attitude.

>illogical crap... some religious nut ... ranting ...Mary was a
>virgin ...

(Leanne, you should know that this particular issue is a very
sensitive one for those who believe in the Virgin Birth,
including myself..... I am especially devoted to Mary as a Saint
as well as the other stuff you so readily dissmiss as nonesense.

Such was your intent. But why even bring up the issue of Mary,
the mother of Jesus, if not to deride. You have stepped over the
line Leanne, and I take back the comment made regarding your
intentions in my last post. I then gave you the benefit of the
doubt. No longer mam') .... To continue with your words, taken
out of context true, but telling none the less......

>...bad dreams, hallucinations, schizoid development, possibly
>even ...incest experiences ...

Are you having fun yet?

>I will not make such a statment. I do not feel I have the right
>>to challange a person's personal statment that they have had
>>some type of physical experience, since I was not there to
>>witness what happened. However, I can research their claims and
>>then decide, based on what I find out, whether or not it is
>>possible that what they claim could have happened....that is
>>totally different than sitting at home and saying: "I don't
>>believe..."

Please excuse my stupidity, mam, but what the hell have you just
done? Exactly what you say you wouldn't do, eh?

>many of these people obviously need it (sic, a good counselor)
>... in a paranoid state,
>As always - show me facts!

>Leanne ];-)


This next episode of, "As the World, Turns" is brought to you
by the makers of ..... (at this point, cue the heavenly music!).

>I am not religious.

Gee, you coulda' fooled us!

>Whether ... some people 'believe', 'have faith' or 'know
>absolutely' that they are abductees, is absolutely irrelevant
>without factual data.

In other words, it matters not, to you, who the person is who
has (claimed) have had abduction experiences.

>dreams ... schizoid ramblings ... second-hand stories from
>an unreliable sources... mumbles of the deluded ...
>experiences of real abductees.


I am sorry and sad, yes sad. I am a very well educated man. My
father taught me early on about truth and the feelings and
beliefs of others being sacred. I have many degrees, which at
the least, is telling about my intellectual ability, my IQ is
not at all normal, it is in fact, abnormally high. I am a
scientist as well as an engineer (in electronics). So my
thought patterns are a lot like yours probably are. We tend to
approach problems in the same way. We must, or we would not be
scientists.

I am the _world's_ leading expert in a particular electronic
component. I am paid to consult with many companies on the
issues surrounding this complex device. I am not paranoid,
schizoid or any other "oid" and have the psych test profiling
data to prove it.

I could go on.

You don't know me.

The point I am trying so hard to make, is that your reaction to
this subject, based on your own words, indicate a level of
disbelief bordering on the manic. So, I ask you once again,
Leanne, what is your problem?

While you are more than entitled to your opinion, you are not
entitled to refer to abductees in such words which you have so
facilitously used. I really _do_ want to know why that is.

You are insulting the intelligence and/or the intent of _all_ of
us who claim the abduction experience..... and you appear to be
doing that out of hand and in what sounds a lot to me, like an
emotional burst of mockery.

And when emotion comes into contact with logic, logic looses.

Dr. James S. Mortellaro, Jr.

... for which I am greatfull to be, as continued use of the
"Jr."





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   Dec > Dec 19

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:18:11 PST
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:32:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:26:29 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:59:22 PST

><snip>

>>Is this stirring enough? I can go on more if you like . . .

>Leanne...

>No, that was quite sufficient, thank you.  You've made your
>point and voiced your opinion, to which you are more than
>entitled as a person, let alone a member of this list.  I quite
>realize that sometimes, perhaps too often, I make light of
>things thru what I call a sense of humor.  Actually, it is not
>so much a sense of humor as it is a catharsis of an hysterical
>nature.  When upset, some people yell and scream, some weep,
>some kid around.  I do all of the above, but I try hard to keep from
>weeping in public places as I try harder to avoid being heard
>yelling and screaming.  Which is what your words makes me
>want to do.

>Let me comment on some of your statements.

>You ask, "Where's the evidence?"  Then you say,

>>I do in fact think that life, in some forms, exists outside of
>>Terra. I like to think that is possible that alien life has
>>visited, or will visit us, if it does indeed exist. Until I see
>>some empirical evidence of visitation then I see no reason to
>>have 'faith' as I am not religious.

>I do not wish to pick nits, but in one paragraph you ask for
>evidence and the next, say that it is possible that  ET's have
>visited us, and qualify that by saying, "...if, indeed, they
>exist."

Wake up and smell the logic - 'possible' does not equal probable and
most certainly does not equal actual/factual.

>Let's forget about that last caveat and work with the premise
>that ET has likely visited us.  You say that there is no
>evidence for the abduction experience but there is photographic
>evidence for UFOs existing in pictures. In fact you use the
>words "... obviously UFOs exist..."

A premise is not fact. It is a goal you hope to prove by
research. Yes, photos of unexplained objets de air do exist but
they are proof only that a some objects are unidentifiable from
the data (photo) supplied. Where's the research that proves the
premise? Start off with the wrong premise and where do you end
up if the research data is not there to prove it?

>As "Unidentified" objects for sure, but you do acknowledge the
>likelihood of ET and the possibility that he has visited us, on
>photographic evidence.

I acknowledge only that I liked the thought (not un-proven fact) of
their visitation and, as I am not sexist either, I attributed no
gender.  Your biases are removing you from a clear thinking path on
the subject. Perhaps you are too close to it to be objective.

>But let me demonstrate a thing which frustrates me more than my
>sightings or perceived abduction experiences, a thing which
>angers me to distraction.

>You use all the words which degrade, humble and, humiliate those
>of us who claim the experience with very strong words. I am
>quite sure in fact, that you really do not mean to use those
>words with the intention of degrading, otherwise, I would not
>even bother to answer your post.  I would, rather, chalk it up
>to just another mean SOB who's sole purpose was to denigrate.
>In fact, it reminds me of a word that I used which was very
>inappropriate, the use of which I apologized to you personally
>and to this list.  However...

>Hear follow the words you used...

>>rhetoric, dreams, schizoid ramblings, stories, unreliable
>> sources, deluded, ... and, believe it or not - not even the
>>true-life experiences of real abductees.

Yes, people who have mental problems mis-perceive reality and
that is why I added 'true-life experiencers' for all I know
there may well be some - it is just unfortunate for your/their
case that the evidence is lacking. Any 'true-life experiencers'
words carry little more weight than those of others if there is
no solid evidence to back them up - it's a fact of science life.

>>Show me

>I do believe I did just that, Leanne...  I showed you your own
>words.  Now, if you were a person of say, higher than average
>intelligence, a person who has been psychoanalyzed, tested and
>certified normal, with an IQ of greater than 145, a respectable
>member of society, a decent man or woman who has managed, in
>these difficult times, to maintain a level of self-respect and
>respectability in all other areas of life, a person such as
>this... does _NOT_ in your own words, constitute evidence, but
>pictures do?

(Aw shucks, can't I enjoy being indecent?  ;-) )

Perceptions, all the same, are not facts. They are merely how
our brains put things, real or imagined, together in ways that
we try to make sense of and categorize for further reference.
That's the beauty of humanity - it helps us all to be so
individual but similar. Any individual's story may be incredibly
real to them whether it it did or didn't occur in actuality. To
talk of these occurrances as researchers and demand, seek, probe
for the facts is not an insult - but I can appreciate the
'experiencers' feeling such a search to be insulting when words
alone are not weighted as a photo is but the search for truth
must work with facts not feelings.

You have a Ph.D., think back to your studies and the importance
of the 'scientific method'.

I have occasional dreams where I fly unaided and the feelings
are real and great at the time. It doesn't mean it really
happened but they are great perceptions - I wake up thinking
'WOW - if only'.

>Leanne, there is something wrong with your conclusions.  Just by
>your own words, you demonstrate a level of, if not anger, then
>certainly, negativity, which to me at least, tells me just how
>strongly you feel on this subject.  Because it represents a high
>emotional state suggestive of anger and negativity.

>So, Leanne, what's your problem?

Your last paragraph takes us back to perceptions - you have
perceived emotions that aren't there purely because I express a
need for the use of evidence that is yet to be forthcoming. I
look at this subject as not one of emotion but certainly in dire
need of proper scientific handling. Anyone disagree with that?

I guess I have a problem when the logic, as expressed, is
ignored.


Regards,
Leanne





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   Dec > Dec 19

             Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:54:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:33:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.


Regarding...

>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:22:06 -0800 (PST)
>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

Jim wrote:


>>How is the apparent contradiction explained - does Meier admit to
>>hoaxing many of the photographs, yet still maintain much of his
>>material is genuine?


>Hello James,

>As far as I know, Meier hasn't admitted to being told that any
>of his UFO photos were tampered with before he received the
>developed film back, though he noticed back around 1977 that in
>one series of 14 surviving photos (the one with the Swiss jet
>fighter in the same picture and the sounds of the jet recorded
>on tape) they all had returned from the developer's reversed in
>left and right. But he knows his 33 surviving
>Hasenboel-Langenberg UFO photos of 29 March 1976 are genuine --
>i.e. they look just like what he shot with his camera, and the
>62 Bachtelhoernli-Unterbachtel photos of 8 March, 1976, and the
>10 or 11 photos surviving from his filming at
>Fuchsbueel-Hofhalden on 9 July, 1975, and so on.


Jim,

Thanks for the clarification.


>I'm not replying for Korff, but what Meier admitted to was
>being told by his key alien that his one photograph of Asket,
>and one of her and another alien, were not genuine. This was
>supposedly due to MIBs working in collaboration with an
>anti-Meier person, who used a look-alike of Asket in a photo
>that they managed to substitute for the real photo, before they
>were returned from the photo shop.

What can I say... !


You can maybe help answer a few more questions though; on June
16th, 1964, Meier was apparently in New Delhi and took a 'UFO'
photograph which I have a copy of and which was published on the
front page of a local newspaper.

Was this his first 'UFO' photograph - if not, when was his first
known photograph taken?

Were there many photographs taken prior to his residence in
Switzerland?

Approximately how many 'UFO' photographs has he taken overall?



James.





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   Dec > Dec 19

              Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:09:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:35:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo


Regarding...

>From: KRandle993@aol.com
>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:13:37 EST
>Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

Kevin wrote:

>In fact, there is nothing in the record to suggest that Dr.
>Johnson had the opportunity to see any of the Roswell crash
>debris himself. The pictures he took show the remains of a
>weather balloon and rawin target and all the analysis in the
>world isn't going to change that.


Kevin,

This is the point I hoped to clarify, when recently writing:

I've uploaded to my web site a composite image showing the three
photographs of Ramey, Marcel and Newton with the 'Roswell'
debris:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/foil.jpg


Also to prove that the same debris is evident in all three
photographs:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/foil2.jpg

In these images, the green letters denote apparent matches
between the Ramey photograph and the other two, whilst the red
letters show comparisons between the Marcel and Newton
photographs.


Given that Marcel reportedly claimed the debris he was
photographed with came from the 'flying saucer' and that it's
obvious the same type of material is shown in all three
photographs - i.e., there was no 'switch' - what is the basis
for disputing Marcel's testimony? [End]


Going back to basics, if we agree that the photographs show the
remains of a weather balloon and rawin target and Maj. Marcel,
to my knowledge, never once claimed he wasn't depicted holding
the original 'flying saucer' debris - indeed is quoted as
confirming it was in fact said 'saucer' debris.... how is this
explained if it's contended the debris was extraterrestrial?



James.





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                          Re: The Goldwater Letters

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:29:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:46:04 -0500
Subject: Re: The Goldwater Letters


Regarding...

>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:57:01 EST
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Goldwater Letters

Bond wrote:

>My plan is to keep drumming the chant: "Unlock the Roswell
>Garage! Let us SEE/EXAMINE the craft! Then we all can move on
>with our lives!


Bond,

Maybe you've already had the privilege of photographing it!

Following on from my question to Kevin, do you believe the
debris you photographed came from a weather balloon and rawin
target, or do you consider it originated from a possibly
extraterrestrial craft?


James.





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                       Nanowire Prototype From Israel

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 02:39:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:49:14 -0500
Subject: Nanowire Prototype From Israel


Forwarded From 'alt.alien.visitors'.

Stig

*******

A case of precognitive remote-viewing? Also compare this
Col. Phillip Corso's story.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: ::: Nanowire Prototype from Israel :::
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:31:16 -0800
From: Blue Resonant Human <density4@cts.com>
To: sarfatti@well.com, UriGeller@compuserve.com
CC: Apollinair@aol.com

Is Dannion Brinkley'S Box-12 Vision Coming To Pass?

A nanowire prototype from Israel is eerily similar to one of
Brinkley's prophesied events...

by Peter P.

A recent technological breakthrough by two Israeli physicists
and a chemist, in which strands of DNA were incorporated into a
working electronic component, is eerily similar to a prophesied
event seen by psychic and author, Dannion Brinkley.

[cf: http://www.brotherblue.org/brethren/dannion.htm -B:.B:.]

Brinkley, after being struck by lightning in the mid-70s,
reported having a near-death experience (NDE) in which he was
shown a series of prophetic visions by what he termed "light
beings."

Each vision, or set of visions, was seen in a so-called "box,"
which Brinkley wrote about in his 1994 bestseller, "Saved by the
Light."

The Box-12 vision read, in part, "I watched as a biological
engineer from the Middle East found a way to alter DNA and
create a biological virus that would be used in the manufacture
of computer chips."

According to Brinkley, this breakthrough would lead to the
oft-prophesied miniature data-storing computer chip, placed
under the skin of each human being and containing their entire
life-history -- the so-called "Mark of the Beast."

The nanoelectronic breakthrough, by Technion-Israel Institute of
Technology researchers, is described as a nanowire prototype. It
consists of two gold electrodes, linked by a chemically-bound
synthesized DNA strand 'scaffolding' with attached silver grains
used to pass a current.

It is an almost threefold improvement over existing technology
used to make computer chips and the researchers speculate this
can be used to make computer memories.

Brinkley's "Box 12" vision was prophesied for the late
1990s.

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:42:17 -0800
From: " Jack Sarfatti, Ph.D." <sarfatti@well.com>
To: James Randi <JamesRandi@compuserve.com>
Subject: ::: Nanowire Prototype from Israel :::






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   Dec > Dec 19

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:23:14 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:52:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 16:40:26 PST
>Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:07:26 -0500
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:30:01 -0800
>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
>>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:32:47 -0500
>>>Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:04:35 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>>I wish to thank Jerry Clark for the bit of information
>>>concerning Sherm Larsen's garage where so many NICAP files were
>>>"preserved" for transference to CUFOS.

<snip>

>Ah, Jan, you think you can fool us? It's pretty clear, as
>Gary-logic would inform us, that government agents such as
>Keyhoe and Hall were deep-sixing the sensitive government
>documents before you ever got to see them. Or maybe _you_ are a
>government agent. Remember, Gary's already hinted darkly that
>_I_ am one, so if I'm one -- and all you have to do is to
>disagree with him to come under suspicion -- you might as well
>be one, too. Why, I'll bet this list is crawling with others of
>our kind. It's just too bad that Gary is too smart for us.


Ah, Jerry, everyone is a government agent except thee and me.
And sometimes I'm not so sure about thee.

The evidence will some come out as soon as the Free Mason's
writings are decoded.  BTW do we know if Sherm Larson was a
Mason?

Covertly yours,
--
Jan Aldrich





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                  Sighting Near Hanford Nuclear Power Plant

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 02:48:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:54:52 -0500
Subject: Sighting Near Hanford Nuclear Power Plant


Forwarded from 'alt.paranet.ufo'.

Stig

*******

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:31:55 -0800
From: Trevor at J. Whirler <trevor@jwhirler.com>
To: Bibliophile <biblio@bibliophilegroup.com>
Subject: FS: Atomic Town (1954 nuclear plant w/saucer interest)

[#3054] Hope, Nelson W.: ATOMIC TOWN. New York: Comet Press
Books, 1954. 1st ed. Cloth, 12mo, 125 pp. (Barnett, William L.
illust.) Very good in good dust jacket. Personal recollections
of the building of the Hanford Nuclear Power plant. Signed,
inscribed and dated by the author. This book includes a chapter
on the author's sighting of a flying saucer, a phenomena that
would increasingly be associated with nuclear power plants
in the decades to come.  OP.  $42.50

=A9 1998 Trevor Blake

Terms of Sale:
No credit cards accepted.
Postage paid in North America.
Shipping & insurance billed separately outside of North America.
Reciprocal dealer discount up to 20%.
Libraries and institutions accommodated.
Checks / MO in US currency to "Trevor Blake" only, please.
Two week hold with order.
Two week return in as-shipped condition.

Telephone: +503-236-2364
Fax: +503-232-0664

--
Trevor Blake     http://www.jwhirler.com/
J. Whirler Used and Rare Children's Books
P. O. Box 2321 Portland OR 97208-2321 USA








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                 Re: Howe: Insider On MJ12, Aztec Crash 1952

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 03:28:51 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:57:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Howe: Insider On MJ12, Aztec Crash 1952


>From Art Bell's site. URL:

http://bbs.rowlandnet.com/cgi-bin/WebX?14@@.ee75dac/0

Stig

*******

Rowland Net/Art Bell Talk/Reading Room/

Transcripts

Linda Howe / Gary Pace on Dec 20, 1998

This is Linda's Dreamland interview. Also available via our
Sound Clips page. This text prepared by John R. Malone
(Erindale8@Aol.com)

sysop - 03:12am Dec 18, 1998 PST (#1 of 2) Keith Rowland or
Karen Day

AB: And now we go to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. She is an
environmental reporter, has done documentaries; won awards;
science reporter for this program; investigator into all kinds
of high strangesness. And, here she is! Hi, Linda!

LMH: Hi, Art! Well, this year I reported on a crashed disk
between Farmington and Aztec, New Mexico in my latest book,
Glimpses of other Realities, VII, now available in bookstores
and on the internet at Barnes and Nobl.com and Amazon.com. I
show a computer rendition that looks like two silver saucers
glued rim to rim with a small dome on top based on one alleged
government insiders story about a crash near aztec new mexico.
The insider said a porthole had a puncture in it about the
diameter of a pencil. Small bodies were inside the disk, badly
charred, as if exposed to high heat. After studying the
propulsion system, scientists concluded the vehicle used
magnetic or gravitational fields to move around the earth. I
also show a 1950 headline in the Farmington Daily Times
newspaper that says, "Huge Saucer Armada Jolts Farmington Dozens
of eyewitnesses watched more than a hundred silver discs fly low
over the town on St. Patrick's weekend, March 17th, 1950. The
story even made the Denver Post. Multiple crash sites of
interplanetary or extraterrestrial craft in New Mexico was the
subject of an interview we did with Rob and Ryan wood we did on
Coast to Coast as they released documents leaked to them from a
mysterious source.

AB: Let me quickly add we've got 25 more documents in JPG easily
viewable fashioned on our website viewable right now.

LMH: And that's wonderful because this is important material for
everyone to read. After two years of study, the documents are
still holding up as legitimate to the Truman, Eisenhower and
Kennedy years. One document even mentions a 1941 disc retrieval
in Cape Jeroudo, Missouri. And, the man listening to the
interview, contacted me afterward, to say to me that he grew up
in Farmington and knew for a fact that a saucer craft came down
or crashed near Aztec in 1952. This is several years even after
1947. He also insists that President Truman's special studies
group called Majestic-12, or MJ-12 was real, because he worked
in a project at Nellis Air Force Base's Nevada test site with
MJ-12 people.

This is the first time he has gone on record for radio about his
own knowledge or experiences. His name is Glenn Pace, now 58
years old and living in the southeastern United States. Between
1961 and 1963 he worked in the diagnostic photographic
department based at camp Mercury, about 65 miles north of Las
Vegas at the Nevada test site. There, about 90% of the atomic
bomb tests were conducted by Lawrence Radiation Laboratory, 10%
by Los Alamos with general support from EG&G. Glenn Pace said
most often he was assigned to work under German physicist Otto
Kraus who died a few years ago. Mr. Pace said he was shocked to
hear us talk about information on the radio that he knew was
true, but he had remained silent about it for 35 years. Glenn
Pace --- [Linda starts playing a tape recording of her interview
with Glenn Pace.]

AB: All right

GP: [very emotional] I knew that there were multiple crashes.
But, I wasn't able to tell that. I couldn't ever say anything
about that. I could tell if you guys come up with this
information. This was the information that released me to be
able to say what I want to say.

LMH: OK. In the capacity that you were working in, can you give

GP: I was in charge of the diagnostic photography department at
the test site.

LMH: Were you at Area 51, S4?

GP: Yeah, I been in all of those area. But, I mainly worked over
in Yucca Flats Area 9, Area 12. Some of those areas, but I've
been to Area 51, all of these.

LMH: Could we go back to whatever is the first year that you had
knowledge

GP: I gotta explain to you a little bit about my history,
because it all won't tie in unless you know all of that. And,
that is, I grew up in Farmington, New Mexico, [northwest corner,
northwest of Los Alamos] in the 40's and 50's. Alright, the
first time we saw UFOs over Farmington was somewhere in the
neighborhood of about 49, I think. I mean, some of these dates,
you know, have slipped my mind exact dates. I have some paper
somewhere on some of this, you know, but I don't remember the
exact date. My dad and we saw em at the playground. Briefly, we
saw em. We didn't see em as much as my Dad and a bunch of other
people downtown. My dad was a shop foreman for Sugar Lake Garage
at the time in Farmington. A bunch of them saw em and watched em
for 15, 20 minutes in the late 40's. Right after that, the Air
Force come to our house and I was still a kid at that time I
would have been 9 years old. And, the thing that stuck in my
mind is I remember how they put my dad through the mill as far
as questions, and all this stuff, and what he didn't see and
what he did see, and he really didn't see this, and he.. you
know, all this kind of stuff was going on.

LMH: And, they would have a jurisdiction to do this over your
father because, why?

GP: They just did it. They didn't have a jurisdiction period. I
know now. They just come and did it.

LMH: But, your father was a civilian?

GP: Yeah.

LMH: And who was doing this questioning?

GP: Somebody in Air Force uniforms. I don't know they were.

LMH: And what had your father reported, exactly?

GP: Well, they reported seeing the UFOs over Farmington. And,
several of them, and in patterns. And we saw a glimpse of them
from the playground just before the bell rang, but then they
made us go in and we couldn't watch them. That was the first
time we saw em.

The second time we saw em was in 52, it think it was, 52. We had
just gone to the playground for recess and we played soccer
during recess. And, we were in a soccer game. Somebody happened
to look up and go, "Hey, Look up there!" And, we looked up and
there was, oh, somewhere in the neighborhood of about 30 or 40
UFOs in a triangular pattern over Farmington, at about, what I
know now from being air traveling and all that, was probably 4
to 5,000 feet over the town, which would put em at about 9,000
feet - Farmington is 5,250 high uh, they were in a triangular
pattern and, uh, the inner pattern of em made a circular shift.
In other words, it looked like they were cutting a hole or
something. Then, they bolted right towards Durango just, I mean,
just in a coupla seconds they were gone!

And, uh, the next day it come out in the paper it come out, my
mom and dad read me this article, it come out and said that a
UFO had crashed at Aztec and named the canyon. And, it just
happened that my friend and I rode horses out there all the
time. We had our own horses and we rode out in it so that's why
I remember this canyon. And, the UFO had a pinhole in the
porthole. And, there were 3 charred bodies inside about 4 foot
high in stature. And, the government come and took the crash,
the craft away.

LMH: And you think this was what year?

GP: This was about '52. And, so, the next day it come out in the
paper that this was a big hoax, that there was nothin' to this.
But, this was, when the hoax come out, was on a Friday. My
friend and I decided to go spend the night with these friends of
ours in Aztec, and they had horses, too.

And, the next day we rode out to this canyon. We got out there,
and there were tire tracks everywhere out there. Truck tracks,
tire car tracks, all that kind of stuff. And we'd ridden out
before and there wasn't any tracks out there. So, from that
point on, I believe that the article that come out the first day
was the right article, not the article denying it.

LMH: Did you ever see anything there that was the crash?

GP: Uh, we didn't see the crash, no. They had already taken it
away. . So, then, I got married. I got in the music business and
I got married. And, was working in Albuquerque for Limbaugh
Ariel Photography. And, uh, a friend of mine named Rufus Lane
Bond the Third, which I've also tried to find in the last
fifteen/twenty years, and I can't find Rufus anywhere. And,
you'll understand why I can't find him in a little bit.

Through a friend of his, he got an interview with LRL, the
photography department.

LMH: With Livermore Research Labs?

GP: Yeah. With Livermore, but for the test site. And, got a job
out there and left and moved away from Albuquerque and him and I
were good friends we went around all the time together and all.

About a month and a half later, he called me back and he said,
"They're gonna be hiring some more people in the photography
department out here, would you be interested in taking a job out
here?" And it paid really good at the time. And, the per diem
was good. This was before Kennedy cut out the per diem and all
that stuff. So, I said, "Sure." So, they flew me out there. I
interviewed with them. They hired me. And, I went out to
Mercury, Camp Mercury, right there off the Tonopah Highway.

LMH: Mm-huh.

GP: They put me in charge of the diagnostic photography
department. At this point, I was a twenty-two year old kid. I
felt like I was forty. But, you know, looking back, I'm going, I
can't believe these people jeopardized a whole shot on a
twenty-two year old! You know? I mean, I didn't feel that way at
the time. But, I was in charge of all the diagnostic
photography, film traces and everything that had to do with all
the shots.

LMH: And you were where then, physically, at the Nellis Air
Force Base Range? Where were you officed?

GP: Well, we had always checked into Mercury every morning, when
we got to the that's where we kept our cars. We had.. They
furnished us Pinto's. And, we'd get our cars and then we'd drive
out to the areas that we were working in. And, the areas,
depending on where the shot was, and what we were doing.. but,
most of the time I worked in Area 9 which is right south of the
Sudan crater. Uh, I worked in Area 12 which is north of the
Sudan Crater. Uh, just over the ridge from Area 51. And, like I
say, the photographers were the only one's allowed binoculars on
the test site. So, from some of the areas that I went to up on
the mesa, you could look into Area 51.

And, this is what prompted the conversation that pursued
because, a lot of times when we had shots at the test site, I
might be stuck out there three or four days in a row, because we
would do a dry run every four hours. They had to make sure all
the scope traces were still up to par and everything was ready
for the shot. And, what we would do is, we would auto-cross with
a great heart player. We loved to play hearts and we would play
hearts to pass the time while we were waiting on this shot or on
the next dry run. Or, we would go to the movie at Area 12, or
the movie back at Mercury. Or, we would just get out sometimes,
Rufus and I, would just get out run around at Area 12 on those
roads and things and just look around. Just piddlin' around to
pass the time

And, when they had a dry run ready, Otto would call us on the
radio. We'd go back to the photo trailer and we'd process the
film.

This one time, we got into this conversation because I had seen
the UFO's over at Area 51. And, we'd even seen them over at
Yucca Flats some, and even the Red Badge' people at the test
site had seen the UFO's.

LMH: What exactly did you see?

GP: Well, we saw a craft that, you know, maneuvered.

LMH: Did you see it close enough to see the shape?

GP: Oh, sure. Yeah. Like the ones we saw in Farmingdale. I mean,
basically.

LMH: Okay. Now, can you describe those shapes?

GP: Well, it's, uh, a dish shape with a dome that comes up at a
I mean, I've seen em on, heck, Art Bell had one on his sight the
other night that looked very close to what the one's we saw
looked like. I told my wife, "That's incredibly close to the
aliens and to the UFO's."

And, uh, anyway, this conversation started with Otto. I told
Otto that I had grew up in Farmington, New Mexico. And, I told
him about the two different times we had seen UFO's over
Farmington. And, uh, this part here is the part I've never told
anybody, uh, up to the point - and I would have never told
anybody this till all these documents come forth the other
night. And, those documents are accurate. I can tell you that
right now. I have not even downloaded the documents yet I intend
to. But, I can tell you for what I've heard on the radio those
documents are accurate as heck.

Because, in this card game was a guy from the MJ-12, from the
MJ-12 people. He even had a license plate on his car that said
that. And they were always around the test site, they were in
the cafeterias and stuff. Before Kennedy came to the test site,
that time, there happened to be a group of them sittin' at a
table that I was sittin' right at the table next to, and I
overheard em talkin' about what they were gonna let him see and
what they weren't gonna let him see. And he couldn't see this
and he couldn't see this and he couldn't know about this and he
couldn't know about that You know, I thought, at that point,
that the President could be anything that he wanted to do. And,
I actually learned the President has no authority in this
country except over just basic general stuff, and neither does
the congress. The people higher up are running this country and
have been for a long time.

Anyway, this guy was in this card game with us out there on this
particular shot that we were waitin' on. It was a pretty
experimental' type thing. I asked that night, uh, who was the
MJ-12?

[Linda stops the tape.]

LMH: And, after we come back after the break, you will hear his
description of what a man who said he was working for MJ-12 said
to his questions.

AB: Oh, what an incredible interview! Alright, Linda! Hold it
right there!

[Art plays some theme music before the commercials ]


The opinions posted here are those of the users who posted them
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providers of thisservice. Please report system abuse to the sysop.

Copyright 1998 Keith Rowland, All Rights Reserved






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                         Re: Filer's Files #50-1998

From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:05:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:05:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #50-1998




Source: http://ufoinfo.com/filer/1998/ff_5098.html

Filer's Files #50-1998
MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer: MUFON Eastern Director,
December 17, 1998
Majorstar@aol.com (609) 654-0020


Filer's Files: sponsored by Global Force Ltd

Albert M. Chop, deputy public relations director, National
Aeronautics and Space Administration, and former United
States Air Force spokesman for Project Blue Book stated,
"I've been convinced for a long time that the flying saucers are
real and interplanetary. In other words we are being watched
by beings from outer space!"

NEW JERSEY

TURNERSVILLE-- Evelyn Galson states: "I had a strange
experience on December 11, 1998, which was a Thursday. It
was 10:30 PM and I had gone downstairs when I heard an
unusual whirling sound. I hurried up and opened the front door
and I saw an object in the sky, it was traveling north. I couldn't
see the shape but there were two white lights, one on top and
one on the bottom. The whirling sound was coming from this
object and when the object left my field of view the sound
stopped. On Dec. 15, 1998, I saw another object. It was 6:00
AM in the morning and I had gone downstairs to brew some
coffee, when I heard a whirling sound. This time the whirling
sound was deep, the sound I heard on December 11th was a
high pitched whirling sound. I went to the window and looked
out. I then noticed an object in the sky with multiple red and
white flashing lights. It looked like it had about 6 or 7 lights on
it. But the lights were not blinking like you see on airplanes,
but brightly flashing. I have seen many airplanes and
helicopters, but have never seen anything like this. This object
was traveling north also and when the object moved further
away the whirling sound got lower and lower until it stopped. I
was listening for the usual sound an airplane makes, but I only
heard the whirling sound. The object was about 40 degrees
above the horizon and its size was the size of a dime held at
arm=92s length. Thanks to Evelyn Galson
galsonrm@citnet.com

HAWTHORNE=97David Cosoi saw a really fast moving bright
blue white light race across the sky on December 13, 1998,
at around 11:30 PM. There was no noise as the light moved
across the sky. It looked different and larger than most
meteors. It appeared low, only some 10,000 feet high in
comparison with other aircraft in the area. The Art Bell Show
reported a similar object over Brooklyn, 20 miles to the
southeast. The object appeared to be traveling from the
southeast to northwest horizontal to the ground at tremendous
speed. The object flew across the horizon in a few seconds.
Thanks to Connie Cosoi 44 Elbon Ave. Hawthrone, NJ
07506.

FLORIDA

Kenny Young reports that he has been sent a video of
possible UFO taken on November 16, 1998. The videotape
depicts two oddities; one meteoric object resembling a
flaming, fan-shaped contrail which slowly descends to earth
followed shortly by a missile-like object streaking across the
sky. James DeVoy states: Please take a look at my video I
shot it at 5:35 PM, still day light. The missile shaped object
was flying away from the fireballs location, but I could only
tape one object at a time. A NASA scientist said that this
fireball was an illusion caused by the atmosphere, calling it a
jet, but jets don't land in water and that is where the object
was heading. But an Air Force spokes person who saw the
video said it looked like a meteor. I am confused and want to
find out for sure what these two objects are. At this point I am
excited because of the many different opinions. James
DeVoy (941) 625-5793 Port Charlotte, FL
RINGDINGGG@aol.com, Thanks to KENNY YOUNG who
is evaluating the video. UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/

GEORGIA

John Thompson State Section Director writes; "While I know
the inner- terrestrial (INT) threat will turn many folks' stomachs,
how can you ignore it? I believe 99.9 percent of this abduction
madness is not of extraterrestrial origin. When there is
NEVER any physical evidence of substance, how can you not
consider mental projections or hologramic-like images being
projected into the victims' minds? Even bruises could be
created by mental actions. Those that do not to wish to
consider the INT thesis for abductions and many entity
sightings: A) Have never investigated entity/abduction cases.
B) Have not investigated many UFO/alien cases. C) Are
biased, wish to remain politically correct in the UFO camp,
hopelessly naive, or have a money ET UFO product to
promote. D) Most importantly, ignore the fact that there is no
physical proof to prove "abductions" and that intelligent and
independent witnesses (who can stand background checks)
seeing a person being kidnapped into a physical space craft
are never located. I do believe that the "abduction threat" is
real but one that does not involve physically abducting people.
Instead, it is a captive mental process that our religious
leaders should be researching and warning our country of.
The six- million dollar question is, what are these INTs doing
with their helpless victims? Why do they keep coming back
once past "a look-see?" Reports of "abductees" being
"abducted" 30 times or more have to be taken with great
alarm. The INTs are coming back repeatedly to the same
people for some logical reason. If nothing is being done to
them physically--as I believe--you are only left with thought
processing manipulation or mind- altering programs as
possible solutions. The dumbing down of our species
certainly cannot be ruled out as we are a growing threat to the
INTs. Conditioning human minds to their program or way of
thinking is also rational. "The devil made me do it" probably
has real basis. The devil and his clan is just another form of
aliens; inner-terrestrial aliens. And while not stylish or sexy, to
ignore the evidence is to continue crossing busy highways
without looking for cars. We are getting hit repeatedly! I
personally believe many of our leaders in of American life
have been "contaminated." Why has not been more been
said about the INT threat? This is not biblical preaching; I
believe it can be proven scientifically, if the will was there.
Thanks to John Thompson.

KENTUCKY

CLERMONT COUNTY--Kenny Young reports an Unusual
'Blue-Object' was spotted in Northern Kentucky on December
13, 1998. Blue UFOs, suspected black helicopters, power
outage and earth tremors were reported in Northern Kentucky
Sunday evening. A caller to the Bill Boshears radio program
'Sci-Zone,' on A.M. Radio 700 WLW, reported visually
observing a 'blue-colored' object descending from the sky in
an area near the Eastgate Mall, located off of Interstate 275 in
Clermont County. The caller questioned if the object he
observed could have been a meteor. While Pennsylvania
researcher Stan Gordon, the guest for the program, listened
intently, the caller reported the blue- colored object around
10:35 p.m. during the radio program. A separate,
independent report of a blue-colored object seen near
Hopeful-Church Road in Boone County, Kentucky was
received at 12:30 p.m. by telephone from a resident of
Florence, KY. This person, whose name will be withheld to
honor privacy concerns, left her place of employment near
Burlington, KY at 11:00 p.m. and was driving home. She had
not heard the radio program and is an independent source.
While traveling south on Hopeful-Church Road at 11:15 p.m.,
she reported spotting a large triangular object that seemed to
be hovering. The object was composed of very prominent
blue lights which blinked or traced in a vertical pattern. This
vertical arrangement struck the witness as very unusual. She
said that she almost hit a curb while looking at the object.
With her car running, she could not discern any noise. She
was impressed of a triangular structure behind the lights by
discernible against the 'skyglow' caused by light pollution in
the Florence area, and by a partial luminance of the body due
to the blue lights reflecting from its surface. She thought white
lights may have also been present, and is most confident that
this object was not a helicopter. Further, she claims to readily
recognize all commercial air traffic, living under a north-south
runway for Greater Cincinnati-Northern Kentucky International
Airport in Erlanger. She speculated that this object could have
been a military airplane, but doesn't know why it would seem
to hover with blue lights. She added that the object departed
at a low elevation to the south-east, in proximity to the airport,
but not along a flight-path to approach the runway. Special
note: CINERGY (Cincinnati Gas and Electric), explained the
reason for numerous 1995 power failures. The categories
were: Equipment Failure, Animal (squirrel chews through
line), Weather Related, Automotive (car hits a pole), and
UNKNOWN. A sizable portion of unknowns were relegated to
failures that 'happen mostly at night.' Thanks to Kenny Young
-- UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/ufo

ARKANSAS

WEST MEMPHIS--Joe Trainor describes a triangle UFO
sighting in Arkansas. The sighting report, forwarded by
Michael J. Long of Mississippi UFO Files, reads: On Sunday,
November 29, 1998, at 7:55, a witness who asked to remain
anonymous "was at my brother's yard" in West Memphis, Ark.
"when I looked up and saw a triangle-shaped craft flying just
above the tree tops. I got a good look at it because the
streetlights were shining on the bottom of the shiny silver craft.
It had dim yellow lights on each corner. It was flying horizontal
to the ground, and then the nose of it rose to a 45-degree
angle, and it kept flying straight ahead. The craft then turned
sharply to the left and disappeared behind the tree line."
Trainor says the man added that within minutes "several
low-flying planes began circling" the area "for 30 seconds,
and then they left also," 12/7/98, UFO Roundup Vol. 3 #49,
Joe Trainor editor, (Masinaigan@aol.com)

CANADA

LAKE ONTARIO--"ORBWATCH" is the name of a group of
"observers" which is currently monitoring the anomalous
phenomena in the area of the western end of Lake Ontario,
Southern Ontario, Canada. These phenomena comprise:
Unexplained aerial activity in the form of "Nocturnal Lights"
which have been seen moving over the water's surface,
hovering and often submerging. At times these lights have
also been seen moving under the water surface and
reemerging. Unexplained aerial activity in the form of "Diurnal
Lights" which seemingly "appear from nowhere" and are just
"there." Excellent photographs have been taken in recent
months of the orbs and the site was last updated on
November 25, 1998. They often remain in a certain spot,
change shape, luminosity, height, width, and, at times, appear
to have some form of solid object within the light itself.
Sometimes these objects appear fifty feet above the surface.
Thanks to Orbwatch at: http://www.per.to/orbwatch/

ENGLAND

CASTLETOWN--Kral Kirkhouse reports at 9:15 PM, on
December 15, 1998, a craft was observed hovering over the
river. As it was hovering some kind of energy beam was
seen. The beam lasted for a few seconds and the UFO flew
sky ward. The UFO was Saturn shaped the ring was sort of a
red and yellow in color. Thanks to Kral Kirkhouse at 6 Oswal
Terr so, Castletown, Sunderland Tyne and Wear England
Thanks to ISUR and John Thompson.

AUSTRALIA

A message dated December 10, 1998, from Ross Dowe of
the Australia National UFO Hotline reads: The Hotline has
been very busy taking sighting reports from most parts of
Australia over the last 48 hours. UFO reports are coming from
Melbourne, Victoria; Perth, Western Australia; Darwin,
Northern Territory; Brisbane, Queensland; Canberra,
Australian Capital; and Albury, New South Wales. All these
reports are similar in nature. Respondents are claiming that
they have sighted a very large black or dark triangular shaped
object with an illuminated array underneath, descriptive of
"Ezekiel's wheel." The UFO was seen standing still, rotating
and moving slowly passing overhead. Ross Dowe
(ippoz@eisa.net.au)

ROSWELL PHOTO CONTROVERSY CONTINUES

My thesis is if we can discover what happened on July 8,
1947, fifty years ago, we can help solve the mystery of
Roswell. Numerous books have been written claiming an
alien craft crashed, but they are based mostly on old
memories and testimony. Intelligence officer Major Jessie
Marcel had picked up some of the debris on a ranch near
Roswell, showed it to his family and brought it to Roswell Air
Base for examination. On July 8, Colonel Blanchard
announced that the Army Air Force had captured a flying
saucer. Major Marcel and the debris were flown to Fort Worth,
Texas. James Bond Johnson was ordered by his newspaper
the Fort Worth Star to go to the base and photograph the
debris. When he arrived at the Eighth Air Force Commander=92
office, he was met by Colonel Dubose the Chief of Staff.
General Ramey was not there, but a still wrapped package of
debris was on the floor. Colonel Dubose and Bond Johnson
unwrapped the debris and spread it out to prepare for the
photo shoot. Bond Johnson remembers the material smelled
burned. Fifteen minutes later, General Ramey arrived
clutching a piece of paper in his hand. First, a photo of
Ramey was taken with only the back of the paper visible. It
was decided that Col. Dubose should join in the pictures.
Apparently, General Ramey opened and read the paper since
the writing was now visible in the later photo. No one seemed
to know the exact identity of the debris. Major Marcel was
also photographed. Bond Johnson left quickly because he
was trying to meet a newspaper deadline. We can now
assume that Major Marcel attempted to convince General
Ramey that this debris was special and had alien writing on it.
Frankly, his career probably depended on it. About an hour
later, after the message had been read thoroughly and we
assume the debris was closely examined Weather Officer
Warrant Officer Irving Newton was asked to come over and
take a look. He explained he was the only weather officer on
duty. In sworn testimony to the Air Force he claims "Several
minutes later General Ramey himself called and said get your
ass over here, if you don't have a car take the first one with a
key" We have to make some assumptions here that General
Ramey was reacting to the orders in the Confidential
message and this debris was very important. Extremely
important for General Ramey to go so far as to tell W. O.
Newton to steal a car to get there. Apparently, a second
cameraman besides Bond Johnson was quickly summoned.
When Newton arrived he states in a sworn statement to the
Air Force in the Roswell Report: "I was met at the door by a
Lt. Col. or Col. who told me that someone had found a flying
saucer in New Mexico and they had it in the General's office.
A flight had been set up to fly it to Wright Patterson AFB,
Ohio, but the General suspicioned that it might be a
meteorological equipment or something of that nature and
wanted it examined by meteorological personnel." --Snip--
Newton also states, "While I was examining the debris, Major
Marcel was picking up pieces of the target sticks and trying to
convince me that some of the notations on the sticks were
alien writings. There were figures on the sticks lavender or
pink in color, appeared to be weather faded markings with no
rhyme or reason. He did not convince me these were alien
writings. " Essentially, Major Marcel's career was on the line.
The Army Air Force had already announced to the world they
had captured a flying saucer. Major Marcel saw a great deal
on in a field near Roswell, he had shown his family and his
bosses were in an embarrassing situation.

We can assume Newton saw what he was supposed to see
based on what General Ramey wanted. Newton then claims
he easily identified the debris. He states: "I was convinced at
the time that this was a balloon with a RAWIN target and I
remain convinced." Certainly at first look most people would
identify the debris has belonging to a RAWIN target reflector
and a balloon. But, we have some unanswered questions.
Why does the debris appear different? The two sets of
photographs taken only an hour apart seem to show a
sanitized version of the debris. Several key beams or sticks
are missing. Last week, I attempted several times to send this
comparison to our readers. Most were eventually able to
receive them, but many people wrote to complain. Another
problem is that we may have a cropped version of Newton=92s
photograph accidentally cutting off some of the important
evidence.

Photographs had already been taken of the debris an hour
earlier, so why was it so important to get additional
photographs taken of the debris? Even though Newton
identified the debris as part of a weather balloon it was flown
to Wright Patterson for further analysis. The Army and the Air
Force have always stated this was standard off the shelf
materials. Why couldn't the dozens of military people who saw
the material before Newton identify it as the mundane? Was it
sanitized so Newton would identify the debris as something
mundane. Remember the photographs taken in General
Ramey=92s office are virtually the only government approved
evidence we have to prove anything important happened in
1947. Controversial MJ-12 documents have been declared
fakes by the government.

BOB DURANT writes that: "Once again you have misled
your readers by printing J. Bond Johnson's fantasies
concerning the Roswell photos. He claims -- and you
published -- that the University of Manchester, England and its
physics department are studying the Roswell photos, and that
a professor of physics named Neil Morris is working on the
project. The University is doing nothing on the photos, nor is
their physics department. Neil Morris is neither a physicist nor
a professor. Morris is a technician attached to the physics
department at Manchester. When they need a light bulb
changed, they call Morris. Morris works on the Roswell photos
on his spare time, as a hobby, using a very ordinary personal
computer and very ordinary off-the-shelf photo manipulation
software. See his web site, and check all this out. I hasten to
add that Morris is perfectly honest about who he is and what
he is doing. You might do a favor for your readers if you would
ask your friend J. Bond Johnson to share with us some details
about his years as a psychological warfare specialist working
for the National Security Council. Johnson has a doctorate in
psychology, and retired from the Army reserves as a full
colonel." Thanks to Bob Durant.
Editor=92s Note: I stand corrected that Neil Morris is apparently
not a physicist, although he does work for the Physics
Department of the University of Manchester as a technician
specializing in photography. He apparently maintains -- and
uses -- the highly technical equipment for the Dept. of Physics
and Astronomy. Neil Morris and the RPIT team are
uncovering evidence and writing within the Ramey
photographs that may be significant. See website at:
http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/index.htm. My
purpose is to obtain has much information from these
photographs as possible. Dr. James Bond Johnson
pioneered in studying the etiology of post-traumatic stress
disorder, having interviewed returned prisoners of war,
escapees and evadees during three wars. He served as
cadet pilot in WWII, a Marine Corps captain during the
Korean conflict and an Army psychological operations
specialist during the Vietnam War. He has been a consultant
to the National Security Council he served on the Eisenhower
Commission, which revised the Code of Conduct for
prisoners of war and was a Pentagon consultant to
"Operation Homecoming," the Department of Defense
rehabilitation program for POWs from Vietnam. He retired as
a Colonel in the reserves.

JESSIE MARCEL Jr., son of Major Marcel had been shown
the debris the previous night. "The debris I saw and I am
absolutely sure of this because of the excitement generated
by my dad did not really look like the Mogul debris. What I
saw was NOT paper backed metal foil. The foil was metal on
both sides. I fully admit that I did not 'bend staple or spindle'
this said foil. I did not witness the so called 'metal with a
memory' characteristic that some other people said they saw.
The beams I examined were NOT balsa wood but were metal
which had the same color, etc., as did the foil. The symbols
did not look like flower petals to me but had more geometry
attached to the configuration." Thanks to-Jessie Marcel, Jr.

GET THE BEST AND HELP UFO RESEARCH, IT
COULD SAVE YOU MONEY

As a special aid to our readers, we can help you obtain the
best real estate experts in your area at no cost to you. Make
sure you have a top notch agent, to buy or sell your home
often your biggest investment. We provide free relocation
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Please send your name, phone number, address, price range
and location to move.

MUFON JOURNAL For more detailed investigative reports
subscribe by writing to 103 Oldtowne Road, Sequin, TX
78155-4099 or e-mail Mufon@aol.com. Filer's Files
Copyright 1998 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved.

Readers may post items from the Files on their Websites or
in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared.

A search engine for Filer's Files can be found at
http://www.ufoinfo.com/filer/search.html.

Send your letters to George A. Filer at Majorstar@aol.com.
If you wish to keep your name confidential please so state.






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   Dec > Dec 19

                   Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell

From: Bob Soetebier <bikebob@mo.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:29:22 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:12:29 -0500
Subject: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell


I couldn't agree more with Richard H. Hall's comments (appended
below).


Bob Soetebier

St. Louis County, Missouri


    Tailwinds to you...            See you ON the road!

    /// BICYCLE BOB ///            bikebob@mo.net


-------------------------------------------------------------

{The following single-paragraph excerptation is taken from
Richard H. Hall's "Perspectives" column, published on page 18 in
the December, 1998, issue of the "MUFON UFO Journal".}:

[....]

The Art Bell piece (published in the November, 1998, issue of
the "MUFON UFO Journal") makes me think about how the
sociological aspects of the UFO movement distract from the
physical science aspects. News media gleefully report on the
colorful personalities, the more paranoid the better, but where
is their reporting on the potentially important airline pilot
sightings of the past few years? Obvioulsy, Bell is viewed by
the media as representative of the UFO field, even as guru for
ufologists. Well, count me out. Let's stick to facts, logic, and
science.

[....]


----------------------------------------------------------------







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 19

                      Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?

From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:36:34 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:17:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?


>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?
>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 02:50:57 -0000

>This kind of twaddle just shows how far removed Ufology is
>from reality. Three lights do NOT a triangle make.

It never ceases to amaze me how those who use ridicule as a
strategy for attack on a UFO observation (that they are not even
a witness to) can be so sure of themselves!  I never said there
were 3 lights. I said a "V" formation. There was a string of
lights forming a '>' type array. It moved steadily and appeared
to traverse the sky as a single object. All the lights in this
formation, perhaps as many as 7 but no fewer than 5 never
waivered or separated from the view of the camera. What was
being shown was abruptly broken off.  Maybe this was intended or
maybe it was one that got away from the editors and cut at the
last moment.

Some parties have already posted they have recorded this on
their VCR and will be transferring the video images to their PC.
It may be something important or it may be inclusive. To express
conclusions before proper examination has been made is
unscientific and lends suspicion to a preconceived bias towards
the incident.

Keeping you informed with the latest UFO and alternative news:
UFOSEEK... For the Source! http://www.ufoseek.org





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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 19

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:46:06 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:24:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:06:12 -0500

>Oh, Michael....please.

>Leanne has a right not to believe abductions are real. At the
>moment there's no scientific proof of their reality.

>Nor does she slander abductees by not believing. She can, for
>instance, conclude that they're honestly reporting what they
>believe happened, but that they're mistaken.

>Some abductees find this difficult to swallow, I know. But they
>themselves, many of them, were at first wary of accepting that
>their abductions are real. Surely abductees and abduction
>believers can understand that abductions are a stretch for many
>perfectly sympathetic people -- and that if someone like Leanne
>wants to wait for genuine proof, she's not slandering abductees
>by doing so.

>Greg Sandow


Greg, I'm not questioning her right to "believe" what she
wants...I just question her right to sit her in the public arena
and state that she does not believe it...

I know this sounds hard, but it is not meant to...it is intended
to protect those abductees who read this list, who may not be as
strong of character as you and I are....

We can say pretty much what we want to to each other, and take
the reply without lasting psychological damage to either of
us...however, as I stated before, there are some abductees, who
cannot take even the slightest hint that they may be "imagining"
these events.

As I said in the other message, there have been alleged
abductees, who have committeed suiside becasue they could not
deal with the "dreams," "ideas,", or what every you wish to call
what is/has happened to them...

I have studied this phenomena for many years, and have heard
many stories alleged to have happened to men, women and
children.  In one case, the woman who was abducted was a very
religious woman, with high moral beliefs, and when she found
herself naked on a table being probed by big eyed what ever's,
she freked out and lost touch with reality, and the abductors
could not help her...she eventually created suicide, and her
husband was allegedly restrained in a chair and made to watch
the whole thing....

He kept telling "them" to stop they were hurting her...these
alleged alines looked at him and put the thought in his mind
that they were not hurting her, and could not understand why she
was reacting the way she was....

I am writing this story from memory...But, I have it somewhere
in my research files.

How could someone who apparently has never been removed from the
safety of their little world and put through some of the horror
stories we have heard, understand such an experience???

It would be akin to a young man telling a soldier who had spent
one or two years in the jungles of South Vietnam, that it was
not really a war, that is was just a skirmish, and the
Government exagerated about the numbers of soldiers killed and
the horror these soldiers experienced...

Yes, that young man may have the right to express such a belief,
but would it be correct? Would it be appropriate for him to say
it in an open forum which was participated in by those soldiers
who was in Vietnam????

As for your own experiences, how much does it bother you hearing
someone tell you "I don't believe it happened?"

I know we can't force the subject on people, but people should
learn to be respectful of other peoples opinions and feelings.
That includes me...<g> ;-)

Take care.

REgards, Mike


ICQ#:7508455.
502) 683-6811






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   Dec > Dec 19

                       ELFIS ISSUE 8 Winter 98 part 1

From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis@ccsi.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:18:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:26:42 -0500
Subject: ELFIS ISSUE 8 Winter 98 part 1

ELFIS ISSUE 8 - Winter 98
First Installment Introduction


Subscribe to the FREE ELFIS LIST:
http://www.listbot.com/subscribe/moistfist


Hello all,

     Just a quick first installment of the new ELFIS
Issue 8, Winter 1998 (before we are all overcome
by the HolyDaze). This installment features a fun
frolic from the angelic, thru the dreamtime, to the
occult and back again to the psychic world of dream-
switching.

 - C O N T E N T S -

MAIN PAGE
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL8/A8.htm

NEWS & NOTES
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/newsnotes.htm

NEW BOOKMARKS LINKS
(lazy approach to updating my links pages)
[large file no frills]
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/links/ELFISLinks0.htm

MR. BAGGINS' CORNER
EHE AutoBiography Part 5: Of Duo DreamTime Duellos
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL8/e8bbeheab5.htm

REVIEW
Wordsworth Dictionary of the Occult
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL8/e8BBrevdict.htm

DREAMTIME NOW!
SMiles DreamSwitching EHE
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL8/e8drmswtc.htm


     So there you have it. Enjoy. Come back soon,
we'll be serving up some more holiday gifts.

SMiles

COMING SOON:

http://www.elfis.net
        smiles@elfis.net
&
http://www.ufou-visiblecollege.com

--

        Stephen MILES Lewis

Writer, Designer, Producer, Editor
        & INFORMATIONALIST

E.L.F. INFESTED SPACES -
Journal of Possible Paradigms

mailto:elfis@ccsi.com

        ELFIS OnLine :
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin

        ELFIS Archive :
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL0/ELFOLARC.html

        ELFIS Links :
http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/links/ELFLinks.htm





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 19

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:33:12 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:29:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:59:22 PST
>Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:34:27 -0500
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

Leanne, Mike, Jim and the list...

Wow. It's a good thing that I specifically limited this thread
to those that believe in abductions. (see original post) I'd
hate to think about the arguments that might take place if I
hadn't! ;-)

As I indicated before, this thread was not intended to be a
debate regarding whether or not abductions are real. However, in
an effort to get things back on track, I'll step in for a moment
and try to make a gentle point.

Previously, Leanne wrote:

>I do in fact think that life, in some forms, exists outside of
>Terra. I like to think that is possible that alien life has
>visited, or will visit us, if it does indeed exist. Until I see
>some empirical evidence of visitation then I see no reason to
>have 'faith' as I am not religious.

>Obviously UFOs exist or else there wouldn't be evidence of them
>in photographic form and expert testimony, but that only means
>that they are unidentified not that they are extraterran
>vehicles piloted by intelligent alien beings.

>A belief based on solid scientific facts is good enough for me.

No offense, Leanne. But each of these statements is in direct
conflict with your basic intent. Since there is no solid
scientific fact that proves life elsewhere in the cosmos, then
your statement

>I do in fact think that life, in some forms, exists outside of
>Terra.

is actually, whether you like it or not, based soley on faith.

Further, your declaration that

>Obviously UFOs exist or else there wouldn't be evidence of them
>in photographic form and expert testimony

is bogus for two reasons. First off, photos (as we all know)
mean nothing and are the furthest thing from proof in this day
and age. Number two is the notion of "expert testimony". Expert
on what? UFOs? I know of no expert that has seen a UFO up close
and personal. Do you? And if you did, why would their testimony
be more valid than someone that claimed to have been abducted?
After all, the testimony of the abductee is about as first hand
as your "expert's", maybe even more so.

Your cry of "show me the science" assumes you'd recognize the
science if it were presented to you. Just because you personally
don't buy into an unproven concept doesn't mean it isn't true.
It simply means you buy into an alternate, unproven concept.

In the world of UFOs and abductions, I know of no actual "proof"
for either. I respect your opinion, Leanne. But to be quite
honest, if you lack evidence, then NOT believing in something is
also an act of faith.


Take care,
Roger Evans





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                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:01:37 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:32:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:55:15 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

<snip>

>I do so hate to quote Dylan again (I lie like a rug, don't I!?)
>but I feel compelled to do so, "When you aint got no faith, then
>you got unblief."  And when that unbelief comes from one of us,
>it's too hard to swallow.

Yet, Jim, these same people who would "demand proof," of
abductions, would "accept on faith," the existence of GOD...
Christian, Moslim, Hindu, Buddist, etc., etc., it doesn't
matter, what their "Religious Faith."  However, how can the
"prove" scientifically the existence of "GOD."

I do not say these things, out of spite or to cause harm, just
to show how they will "choke on a knat, and swallow a camel."

Know that I sympathize with you and the emotional roller coaster
you are on as you read these posts.  If I am able to help you in
any way, please feel free to speak with me about it.

I am not a die hard skeptic, yet I do reserve the right to be
"skeptical," at times.  How could it be any other way...

>Just my own two cents.... now for the coop de grassy (sic, coup
>de grass), some of us are not able to control that anger. I
>admit to being one of those folks. My threshold is low.  Others
>unlike me, manage to control it.  I cannot.  Not as yet, anyway.
>I am trying.  Very trying at that.

>And so this post is not an excuse for avoiding admonition,
>rather it is an explanation for deserving it, eh? (for EBK).

>Dylan also wrote, "One more cup of coffee for the road. One more
>cup of coffee 'for I go...... to the valley below."

>I would like to change those lyrics to suit this occasion. "One
>more glass of fresh wine for the road.... etc." I had to get
>that commercial in for my friend and employer,
>Dr. Gesundt.  Hope you don't mind.


Since I do not drink any alcoholic beverages, I cannot partake
of the fine wines you promote, but I do know, having visited the
vinyards in Southern France, the love and hard work which the
Wineries put into their wines...

REgards, Mike


ICQ#:7508455.
(502) 683-6811





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                           Re: Abductions: proof?

From: Lesley Cluff <manitou@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 01:36:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:41:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: proof?


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:11:04 PST

>>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:31:33 -0600
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


The line below really makes me laugh when ever I see it! And I
see it all too often.

In reference to the statement:

>>What does this "belief" have room for? Have all of these
>>people simply hallucinated? Had bad dreams, or nightmares? Are
>>they out to 'make a name for themselves'

The response was the worn out phrase:

> Where's the scientifically verifiable proof of itbeing otherwise!
>As always - show me facts!

And I ask, where is the verifiable scientific
methodology/protocol that will reveal the facts? Perhaps it is
science that is behind the times!

In every other generation there has been someone who offered a
statement of 'fact' and was ridiculed because the prevailing
'science' (be it religious or scientific in that time) said such
as not possible! What happened to these people was often
persecution in horrible ways. Now we look back and laugh that
anyone could have been outraged by what today we take to be very
simple facts - like, as was suggested in a previous post - the
fact that the earth is not flat afterall!

Just because we do not YET have a scientific protocol for
investigating and proving abductions, even sightings of various
kinds, does not mean they do not occur, merely that our idea of
science, has not yet progressed to that level. We are in the
stone age, trying to study something that requires very advanced
technology!

It has been humourous to have actually come across a situation
where new advanced technology showed up a serious toxin in the
wheat being fed to cattle! The question that as I recall even
went to court, was whether this high level of the toxin was new
and caused by growing conditions that year, or had it always
been there, but the older equipment wasn't sensitive enough to
detect it! It was a rather funny paradox! But that is only one
of many examples!

I prefer,in this time of new technology and scientific
discoveries, to take what has been reported or observed, and
hold in limbo, not judging it, but waiting until their is a way
of proving it to be real or unreal, truth of lie, reality or
unreality or even mistaken interpretation from a lack of
knowledge in the first place. There is no need to judge it now
and I know that a lot of us could end up looking like real fools
when down the road, maybe on a few years away, what we scoffed
at, turns out to be true and provable! But I don't really want
to be proven wrong either, which is also likely with new
developments in technology and science, so I make no judgment
and therefore am neither right nor wrong for now!

Science, good science is supposed to begin with NO preconceived
ideas of what should be the result. Too much of that and any
results will be devalued and the credibility of the scientist
held in question. Not that that may not be the norm, I suspect
it is, unfortunately.

Lesley



--
Lesley Cluff, Ontario, Canada manitou@fox.nstn.ca






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                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:09:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:44:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:55:15 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>Many people who claim abduction experiences have already run the
>gauntlet so many times, that to find disbelief in places which
>are perceived as friendly, is an insult too difficult to bear.

>It's a knee jerk reaction, I think.  It is for me.  One of the
>most difficult problems which I find impossible to control is
>anger.  And I believe that the anger has many sources, not the
>least among these is born of a level of frustration which cannot
>be understood except, perhaps, by another abductee.

>There is the frustration of not being able to stop theses events
>from happening, of not being in control when they do happen, of
>having to live with it while simultaneously being held in
>ridicule (altho I sense this is diminishing lately) and a whole
>host of other reasons.

>Ad to this the final insult (again, this is a perception I
>harbor and is my own personal opinion), ad to this, a statement
>of disbelief form "one of our kind" so to speak, and you have a
>roiling pot overflowing with anger.

Jim,

Anyone who ridicules abductees won't get any sympathy from me.
The first thing everyone needs to recognize is that the
abduction experience is something that hasn't yet been explained
-- and that for abductees it's very, very, very real. I don't
have much patience with skeptics who won't deal with what
abductees say -- for instance, with the strong insistence from
so many abductees that their abductions leave marks.

I can understand your anger, and an honest skeptic ought to be
able to understand it, too. But I can't help feeling sympathy
for those who just can't believe abductions are real. It's a lot
to accept, a giant breach with what we've all been taught about
the world.

And in a way, Leanne does us on the pro-abduction side a favor
by insisting on scientific proof. There isn't any, yet -- and
abductees, of all people, should most intensely want to find
some.

We humans, I think, have trouble coming to grips with the
thought of intruders in our midst. That, in my opinion, is one
reason discussions of UFOs get so crazy. Your anger and Leanne's
skepticism are both understandable, given the range of emotion
that the very thought of alien abductions can generate.

Greg Sandow






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                   'Ice Man Down' - New Roswell Revelation

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 04:35:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:48:37 -0500
Subject: 'Ice Man Down' - New Roswell Revelation


The second installment of an exclusive interview with Curt
Robinson and Larry Rogers, authors of the upcoming book 'Ice Man
Down', is now available on the internet.

Robinson and Rogers discuss their methods of discovery and drama
surrounding their recent claims of exposing the real truth
behind the strange 1947 incident in the desert of New Mexico.

The authors discuss their retrieval of several key artifacts
from the Ragsdale crash-site, including a physical artifact
which they contemplated contacting the Roswell Police Department
concerning, due to their uncertainty of leaving the State of New
Mexico with the artifact in their possession.

This interview can be found at the following location:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/

--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/





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   Dec > Dec 19

                Borderlands Responds to 'Critics Fire Blanks'

From: Michael Theroux <theroux@borderlands.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 02:55:23 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:50:43 -0500
Subject: Borderlands Responds to 'Critics Fire Blanks'


Borderlands Responds to 'Critics Fire Blanks' Article by Michael
Bara and Richard Hoagland.

See:

http://www.borderlands.com/newstuff/research/nexrad/borderla.htm

Thank you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael Theroux
Director
Borderland Sciences Research Foundation - Since 1945
http://www.borderlands.com
theroux@borderlands.com
Ph. 707.825.7733 FAX: 707.825.7779
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






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                 Re: Hynek At The United Nations - 11-27-78

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 02:57:55 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:53:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Hynek At The United Nations - 11-27-78


>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:40:34 -0800 (PST)
>From: John Tenney <mainorg@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Hynek At The United Nations - 11-27-78
>To: updates@globalserve.net

>Dr. J. Allen Hynek
>Speaking at the United Nations
>Nov. 27th 1978

<snip>

Dear John:

Thank you for the Hynek UN address you posted.

I had never read it in full. I find it a refreshingly clear
exposition
of the UFO mystery, perhaps definitive.

This, among other things, should give the lie to the ridiculous
claims made recently that Hynek and others were government
agents secretly working against the best interests of ufology.

I regret that I must snip it out for the sake of brevity, and
encourage those who may have passed over John Tenney's
post to go back and read Hynek's address in full.

This address was made in late November 1978, almost
exactly 20 years ago. Every line applies today.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

= = = =





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                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:30:54 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:57:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:11:04 PST

>This comment is sad, so sad . . . I don't have 'faith' that
>these happen and that makes me a 'sad person' - what illogical
>crap. Is this a religious List? When was EBK declared 'Il Papa
>del OVNI' and the List a diocese?

So, you think this is a "religious observation," do you?
Do I detect an abhorance of religious thought?
Not accusing, just asking...

Why do we automatically accept the idea that "believe," has
to do with religion?
Do you believe in "earthquakes?"
Do you believe in "tornadoes?"
Do you believe it will rain or snow?
This is a matter of semantics...a play on words, if you will.

Unfortunately, most people "believe," much more than they
know...about virtually everything. They take other peoples
words for things (which is basically what you are trying to keep
from doing), rather than getting off their duff and checking it
out for themselves.

I am not one of these people. I tend to go against the grain. I
am more of a loner...I do make the feet walk the walk and the
mouth talk the talk...

I have traveled over much of the United States and into Canada,
to investigate UFOs and connected phenomena....

Unfortunatley, you do not know me, nor do I know you...yet, that
could change as a result of these emails....<G>

>Why should I be expected to believe something someone tells me
>about an 'alien abduction' any more than some religious nut
>ranting at me to have 'faith' in their belief that Mary was a
>virgin in the medical sense and not in a socially specific
>sense.

Acutally, you are not "expected to believe," anything...I only
said that I didn't think you should be posting this lack of
belief in a public email list, and may I add "with such
ferocity." You are entitled to "think" what you wish...I have no
problem with that aspect of it...but why so emotionally? (as
noted in the first paragraph...grin)

I am not a Catholic, so that arguement doesn't fly with me. She
may well have been, for all I know. But being familiar with the
story of her conception, if you look at it from a modern day
UFO/abductee point of view, it appears she may have been visited
by Angel/Aliens; overshadowed with a bright light, regained
consciousness only to be told that she had just conceived by the
spirit of God, to paraphrase... In essence, she may well have
been artifically inciminated, which probably will create a
"religious" response.... But, this "abduction," was for the
purpose of "changing the DNAP of this person who was there after
known as "the Son of God." If we can accept the idea that
Humanity may have indeed been engineered by "space faring
scientists," many million years ago, then it would seem logical
theat these beings, or their ancestors, would continue to
monitor their creation down through history...In fact, it is
possible that these abductions could be for the express purpose
of "making additional DNA changes in the abductees."

Many Abductees report a hightened sense of awareness and psychic
abilities which they did no possess prior to their
experience(s). Many have suffered physically for years prior to
their abductions, only to have their physical systems repair
themselves afterwards...

Still others, who were physically within the range of normal
physical parameters prior to their abductions, report that they
have sufferd physical changes, such as a complete loss of
"sensory feeling," in all parts of their body....And, contrary
to what the Physicians attempt to do or find out, they remain an
enigma...

I happen to know an "abductee," self pronounced, who suffers
this particular type of physical condition...It came on him
gradually over a period of ten years after his proclaimed
"abduction." He for all practical purposes, has stopped
ageing....He still looked like a man of about mid-50's, the last
time I saw him, about a year and a half ago, but he is now 72
years old.

If the doctors, neurosurgeons, etc., can't explain what has
happened to this man, how then can I?

>If people believe in their own heart and soul that they have
>been abducted by aliens then I believe that for them it is a
>real-life experience.

For them yes...I would agree...to me as an observer, I don't
know...even though I do accept the hypothisis that these events
do take place...

>It doesn't necessarily make it a factual occurrence in reality.
>Show me the science!

I can show you the man, in this instance, if you care to travel
here to see and test him for yourself....He has entertained
other investigators, hypnotists, & Medical Students which I have
brought to him...

>"I know in my heart and soul that the earth is flat and that if
>I sail too far in any one direction I will eventually fall into
>space. I know this is true and you better belief me or you are a
>sad, bad person!"

Ha, ha, ha...very good...but, unfortunately, I have "flown over
the horizon," to such places as Hawaii and France...I did not
fly off into space, nor fall into an abyss. <g> Just call me a
mean old person...<g>

>I don't object to you posting your quasi-religious abduction
>belief system on the List so why should you object if I have,
>and post, my quasi-religious non-abduction belief system on the
>List? Haven't you heard of a right to free speech and religion?

quasi-religious??? By what standards and judgements do you
determine a thing to be quasi-anything??? You sound so much like
a Fruedian, while I prefer Carl Jung. <g> You may be a dedicated
religious person, for all I know. However, it does require
"belief," to sustain a religious faith...but as you have
presented it, it also requires a "belief" to deny other people
their experiences.

>Basically yes! Where's the scientifically verifiable proof of it
>being otherwise!

There have been many people tested by psychologists and medical
doctors as well. There have been objects removed from the bodies
of so called "abductees," which have been shown to be small
micor- sopic electronic circuits...this information is out there
if you are willing to put forth the effort to find it for
yourself. I don't know if you accept the academic credentials of
such people as Dr. David Jacobs or Dr. John Mack, of Harvard
Medical Center..., but both of these Men have worked with many
people claiming these experiences... You notice I did not put
"Bud Hopkins," and his work, in this group...There are many
other people who have worked with these people over the past
forty years or so.

>Bond told me of some people he knows who have had the 'abduction
>experience' across 3 or 4 generations of women in the one family
>line.

Yes, that has been shown to be the case in some families...

>Looking at it logically: The great grandmother started it off
>with some bad dreams, or some hallucinations, or a schizoid
>development, possibly even a series of incest experiences or the
>like. She evntually incorporated these experiences into her
>psyche as an alien phenomenon in order to go on and adapt with
>day-to-day life.

>She eventually has a daughter to whom she transfers this
>experience and expectation. How? The kid has nightmares (as do
>we all) and her mothers worst fears come to life - "It's
>happening to my little girl too!" So she gives the scared little
>girl her interpretation of what happened and she, in turn,
>adapts it into her life. And so on down to the present.

You are assuming much here...Your theories may or may not be
correct...in many such cases, the mothers did not relate the
experiences to their children. Yet, found out later that the
children, now grown, had experienced the same types of dreams,
etc...not wanting to believe it was real, in order to retain
their sanity... I don't know that "logic" can apply to this
phenomena... Logically, anything is possible, but
scientifically, we are told that most of these possibilities are
just imagination running wild. Our scientists say that
"logically, it is impossible (by our present technological
understanding) for anyone to travle faster than light...yet,
abductees report that their abductors tell them that
"lightspeed" is only another barrier which we will eventually
overcome in time. What it means is that our hypothesis about
physics in this Universe is incomplete or incorrect... Albert
Einstein says that E=MC2 and that is a "Universal Law." Yet,
Nikola Tesla, in the 1880's demonstrated that energy could be
projected through the earth's surface to a lab in South Africa
and back, in light speed to the 27th power.... So, what does
that do to Einstein's "light speed" barrier? Tesla openly
disagreed with Einstein about this...but where is Tesla's fame
today??? Not only did he discover AC two phase power, and turn
on the lights in New York State, by installing large
electorturbines at Niagra Falls, but he also invented the Radio
four years before Marconi, but due to the help of his adversary,
Thomas Edison, Marconi was given credit for the invention of the
Radio. The Supreme Court overturned that Patent in 1943, and
gave Tesla credit, but do you ever hear his name associated with
the invention of the Radio??? NO! It is still Marconi. I could
give you many other cases of Tesla's inventions which were
pre-1900 and yet are only coming to use in the last twenty years
and today, becasue, Tesla's great- ness was erased from the
History books, for the most part, becasue he Challanged the
desire for "Profits" by people such as J.P. Morgan, and
Westinghouse....I will stop here. I tend to get worked up over
this fraudulant treatment of a great person. :-(

>Horses for courses. If you don't challenge, confront, query,
>push, pull and probe for verification then you are not a good
>researcher. That doesn't stop you from being a good counsellor,
>though, as many of these people obviously need it.

Obviously...sounds like something a psyche studient would say...<G>

>Saying "I believe" is just as valid as "I don't believe" in
>scientific terms but it is not, in and of itself, facts.

What are facts? Change the information, you change the facts.
Theories? Opinions? What is the difference? We all have them.

>The human mind, especially in a paranoid state, is amazingly
>creative and will formulate any 'logical' conclusion for the
>most illogical set of experiences, real or otherwise.

I do not consider myslef paranoid...In fact, considering the
number of years (40) that I have doing this research, I am very
stable...Just ask me. <G>

The human "brain" is just a superfast computer....yes, it spits
out what it thinks depending on what has been put into it.
Brain, is a physical thing, a part of the body...Mind, on the
other hand remains to be seen. I personally feel it is part of
everything intelligent which exists, physically, or
otherwise....

>If people truly believe it happened to them then well and good.
>It doesn't mean I gotta believe it too just because I'm on the
>List.

Ok, in Desert Storm, soldiers who came home began becoming ill
and dying...our military complex, denied that there was anything
wrong with them, other than post traumatic stress...yet, over
the next 6 - 8 years, over 15,000 of these soldiers, who came
home apparently healthy died of strange symptoms.... A doctor in
Texas, whose daughter was a part of Desert Storm, and suddenly
became ill with the same symptoms, began an earnest research
into what could be causing her problems. He discovered that she
had received a large dose of biological infection. It turned out
that these same soldiers had been told not to put on their
radiation suits, to protect themselves from possible biological
attacks by Iraq....even though the Isrealy (sp) troops wore
theirs... Thus, there were large numbers of American Soldiers
who died and possibly continue to die today as a result of this.
This is not my belief, it is documented. I have the radio talk
show from New York, from one of the doctors who told the story
and they also talked to the Dr. in Texas who made the discovery.

>As always - show me facts!


I have presented the information...it is now up to you to
procure the evidence...if you so desire....<g>

Take care Leanne...I look forward to your response. I also
promise not to make future replies this long...

REgards, Mike

ICQ#:7508455.
(502) 683-3026





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                      Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 03:09:18 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:00:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?


>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Triangle Craft over Baghdad?
>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 02:50:57 -0000

>>From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com>
>>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:55:55 EST
>>Subject: Triangle Craft over Baghdad??!


>>I did see a triangular formation of lights very briefly at about
>>4:55 EST on an NBC-TV news report of the bombing of Baghdad.

>Yes, and it was there momentarily and is no way evidence that a
>triangular craft was over Baghdad. I suppose it was only a
>matter of time before the fantastic took over from the
>realistic.

>Under no circumstances would the US and/or UK, both of whom have
>their triangular a/c, operate at such a low altitude either in
>terms of a mission or for the benefit of the live TV audience.

>This kind of twaddle just shows how far removed Ufology is from
>reality.

>Three lights do NOT a triangle make.

>I hope they get Hussein. Support our troops in the Gulf!


Dear Tim, Ignatius et al:

1)  Three lights against a dark sky must by necessity form a
"triangle" of one sort or another,  by the simple rules of
geometry.     This is not to say there is some solid body
connecting them of course!

2)  I wish congress would forget about Bill Clinton and impeach
Saddam Hussein with extreme prejudice.

Best wishes  ( except for Saddam )

-  Larry Hatch

=  =  =  =  =






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                            Alfred's Odd Ode #285

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 06:49:25 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:03:00 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #285


Apology to MW #285 (For December 19, 1998)

Beset by bees of vague unrest we wallow in our squalid nests
afraid of what we cannot see, and force a smile -- pretend we're
free. Enslaved by our assumed indifference, awash in lies we
_fake_ forgiveness -- while deep within the recessed walls the
secrets lurk and tease us all. The jealous few make up your
mind. You're canted, programmed, dumb, and blind. Their seasons
work a will on you. Now comes Christmas -- birthdays too. Pay
for dross and emptiness; suck their souless social kiss. Lose a
home, but pay your taxes! Keep your "faith," it soothes,
relaxes; praying on your alter *gold* to "God" and "Church"
their "Word" foretold.

Forget what dances in your skies! Forget the saucers Kal
decries. Forget the motion pictures taken -- radar, traces . . .
Kal's mistaken. Forget the witness you CAN'T know, because
they're scared that "Kal" would _crow_ and roll with laughter on
the floor, then make them _pay_ disdained -- deplored. Forget
abductees right or wrong that sing the *same* peculiar song.
Forget the legends we all know that _aren't_ explained; they
_lilt_ and _glow_! Forget the cosmos, deep and wide, an ocean
where we float _untried_ -- thinking that we know so well what
*oceans* are or how they swell. We wait too long to mend our
ethics -- mere proud buffoons, betrayed -- pathetic.

Forget the record _painted_ there, where words are writ
describing *their* peculiar place in space's grace -- a wealth
of knowledge leaves no trace? Forget tradition handed down by
word of mouth before some clowns usurped the legends with their
crosses, beads of prayer, and smoky joss sticks. Forget the
Earth is _wounded_, plainly! Forget that we consume insanely!
Forget that we're a demon species rolling in our steaming feces!
Forget that we don't know a thing; we're swept along,
unchallenging, by forces that we could control if we but _heard_
the bell that tolls.

The kingdom, we can sense, at hand . . . is _tied_ to water, air
and land. It whispers from the dappled brooks where fishes swim
before they're hooked to keep us from a need to hurry, be
concerned, or bothered -- worried! In breathless vistas, strewn
with flowers, we keep our heads and use our powers graciously,
yes (!), filled with honor -- guarding fortunes _now_
dishonored. The skies are clear if off our knees; it's when
we're strong, and not diseased. A bounty rains like cats and
dogs when we depart our errant fog -- when we are honest, brave
and _true_ our cherished dreams are _more_ than view.

But we're beset by stinging flies we should abhor, detest --
despise. We're at the whim of _liars_, friend. We think we're
free, but we pretend. Our ethics are in sad disgrace. The Right
is out of line and place. We cry and mope and drink their beer
while outrage festers far _and_ near. Something's wrong -- and
we must shake it! . . . Not secure -- our leaders _fake_ it.
They're the reason we're not jolly; it's _their_ season, _and_
their folly -- sacrificing all our dreams for short term gains
we'd deem obscene. Still -- just _look_! The sky's ALIVE with
craft that hovers, swoops, and dives! And all creation holds its
breath while we campaign and scream for death? Virtue's in the
_asking_, friend, paying freight that fronts your end!! Looking
up to see a saucer's just as _real_ as reading Chaucer! Ask some
questions! What's the problem? . . .Getting tired eating
pabulum? Bug the lawyers, and the cops; bug the news guys, never
stop! Make those bastards _earn_ their living. If you give in,
they're unforgiving!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

The FOGS we manufacture to obscure unsettling lights in the sky
-- abortion, flag burning, same sex marriage, odiferous cigars
. . . Everything peculiar to keeping people thinking with their
glands instead of their brains . . .

Rightists are going to pay heavily for their moralistic
campaign, and then make us ALL pay. It's constantly been said
that the conservative never forgets -- hence that lard assed
pachyderm as their ponderous symbol. I think the inverse is
true. When one recognizes the logical and sequential results of
authoritarian oppression, rank tyranny, legislated morality, and
double standard -- every _time_ (!) . . . one is compelled to
consider that the conservative never REMEMBERS!

Clinton may be the ASS that fronts _his_ party, AND the liar
that he's painted out to be, but his ethical motivation,
compassion, and priority are SAINT LIKE when compared with his
trickle downing, supply siding, and constitution evading
predecessors! If Clinton spent a week in a county lockup for his
faithless transgression, Bush and Reagan should get life in
prison with no hope of parole for theirs! They didn't! Clinton
shouldn't!!

It'll bring the saucers down <g>.

Restore John Ford! (oddly <?> another republican. )

--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 15 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.






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                               Re: Help Needed

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 08:40:12 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:04:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Help Needed


>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:16:48 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Sean Jones <Tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Help Needed

>Hi people

>I'm looking for two articles or information on etc etc and I was
>wondering if any of you learned people 'out there' could help me
>please.

>1) A little while ago there was a story about some science lab
>transmitting a concerto/concert via tachyon beam at speeds
>calculated to be faster than light.

>2) Recently there was another article about the universe.
>Apparently todays scientists have "discovered" that the universe
>is actualy bigger than they first thought.

>Well there you go people, any help pointing me in the direction
>of where I can get copies of the article from and/or copies of
>said I would be very grateful. Either email me directly or
>through the list, many thanks.

>---
>    In an infinite universe inifinitely anything is possible.
>                       Sean Jones


Sean,

Don't know about that first one. Never heard that.

There is an article in the current Scientific American about the
new discoveries about the size of the universe.

Bob






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                                     Re:

From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 11:42:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:07:27 -0500
Subject: Re:


In consulting my well thumbed copy of Mr. Clark's three volume
encyclopedia [my copy is tabbed, cross indexed and annotated] I
find only a few rather uninteresting references to Sherman J.
Larsen, to wit:

Vol. 1: 139, 143-44
Vol. 3: 227, 529

This is quite surprising in view of the rather amazing and
impressive person he seems to have been.

For instance:

1) Mr. Larsen's military background in the Army's
Counterintelligence Corps (CIC) is not mentioned although it was
mentioned that Larsen was an insurance salesman.  Now which of
these two items is more relevant to Mr. Larsen's career as a UFO
investigator?

Is there any doubt?

I really do have to question Mr. Clark's editorial judgement
here, don't you?  In fact, without the current discussion on
this list many, many people would never have discovered anything
about Mr. Larsen's military background, would they?

2) Nor is their any discussion of the role he played in
transferring NICAP's files to CUFOS.  Oh where, oh where, could
those (Army/Navy/Marine) files be, oh where oh where could they
be???

3) Sadly none of Mr. Larsen's excellent contributions to the UFO
literature are cited in the encyclopedia other his article on
the founding of CUFOS published in the IUR.

I am beginning to wonder if Mr. Clark knew Mr. Larsen at all...

Gary





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                 Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell

From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:48:31 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:12:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell


>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:29:22 -0600 (CST)
>From: Bob Soetebier <bikebob@mo.net>
>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell

>I couldn't agree more with Richard H. Hall's comments (appended
>below).


>Bob Soetebier


Hi Bob & Co:

I'll stand by Art Bell on this one.

There are more things to Heaven, Earth, & UFOs than 'our'
facts, logic & science can comprehend. (i.e. science can not yet
give me a personal answer to the 'poltergeist' type experiences
that follow me as an abductee, like many others, though ASSAP
and others have investigated and witnessed the phenomenon).

OK, Art does go a bit on gut feeling & intuition (the
'quickening' I think he calls it). But this is what sets us
above & apart from computers & in my humble opinion will be the
saving grace of us humans in the coming technological nightmare
we are currently embarking on.

All the best

Marc Bell





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                           Re: Abductions: proof?

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:06:18 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:15:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: proof?


>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 01:36:14 -0500
>From: Lesley Cluff <manitou@fox.nstn.ca>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abductions: proof?

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:11:04 PST

>>>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:31:33 -0600
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>The line below really makes me laugh when ever I see it! And I
>see it all too often.

>In reference to the statement:

>>>What does this "belief" have room for? Have all of these
>>>people simply hallucinated? Had bad dreams, or nightmares? Are
>>>they out to 'make a name for themselves'

>The response was the worn out phrase:

>> Where's the scientifically verifiable proof of itbeing otherwise!
>>As always - show me facts!

>In every other generation there has been someone who offered a
>statement of 'fact' and was ridiculed because the prevailing
>'science' (be it religious or scientific in that time) said such
>as not possible! What happened to these people was often
>persecution in horrible ways. Now we look back and laugh that
>anyone could have been outraged by what today we take to be very
>simple facts - like, as was suggested in a previous post - the
>fact that the earth is not flat afterall!

And that's the other worn-out phrase: "They all laughed at
Christopher Columbus!"

They all laughed at Groucho Marx as well


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine,
a division of the P.L.A. Driftwood International Cartel
www.magonia.demon.co.uk






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                          Note from Barry Greenwood

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:47:14 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:14:37 -0500
Subject: Note from Barry Greenwood

Listmembers,

I was asked to release the following statement by Barry
Greenwood exactly as written. Details will be released at a
later date at Barry's convenience.

To whom it may concern:

         --- There is a FATAL flaw in the new MJ-12 papers! ---


                                      Barry Greenwood, 12/19/98

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
   Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
---------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------





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   Dec > Dec 20

                 Re: 'Ice Man Down' - New Roswell Revelation

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:08:30 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 02:54:04 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Ice Man Down' - New Roswell Revelation


>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 04:35:08 -0500
>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: 'Ice Man Down' - New Roswell Revelation


>The second installment of an exclusive interview with Curt
>Robinson and Larry Rogers, authors of the upcoming book 'Ice Man
>Down', is now available on the internet.


Hi All -

Quite naturally I'm very interested in any research concerning
the Roswell case. I have read the two interviews which tell us
virtually nothing about what they have found other than it was
found on the second Ragsdale site. They seem accept the tale as
true and are very dismissive of the negative information about
Ragsdale. For their theory to work, they are going to have to
provide some sort of evidence that the Ragsdale tale is true.
Given that he radically altered the tale as originally told,
that he was clearly influenced by what is being said inside the
UFO community and changing his story to conform, and that his
new story is in conflict with his story as originally told, it
is going to be very difficult.

More importantly, if the second Ragsdale site is bogus, then it
would seem that any of their insights, gathered at that site,
would be flawed.

My best to them in getting their book published as well. I think
they're stacking the deck against themselves.

KRandle





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              Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:24:40 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 03:03:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:09:34 -0500
>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo
>Sender: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


Good afternoon, James  -

>Given that Marcel reportedly claimed the debris he was
>photographed with came from the 'flying saucer' and that it's
>obvious the same type of material is shown in all three
>photographs - i.e., there was no 'switch' - what is the basis
>for disputing Marcel's testimony? [End]

Remember that Moore offered three different versions of the
quotes attributed to Marcel, first in his book, then when he
sent out his notes, and finally in his magazine, FOCUS.

Second, Johnny Mann, when he was in Roswell with Jesse Marcel,
Sr. showed Marcel the pictures in THE ROSWELL INCIDENT. Mann
says that Marcel told him those pictures had been staged. As far
as I know, that is the only time that Marcel referred to those
pictures. He did tell Friedman, in his video, that he was in
pictures with the real debris, but those pictures were not taken
in Fort Worth and were not taken by J. Bond Johnson regardless
of what he says.

DuBose has told us, on video tape, that the material that was
photographed in Ramey's office was not the stuff found in
Roswell.

It is clear that what was photographed was nothing more than a
weather balloon and rawin target.

KRandle





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                 Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:52:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 03:07:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell


>From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell
>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:48:31 -0000


>I'll stand by Art Bell on this one.

>There are more things to Heaven, Earth, & UFOs than 'our'
>facts, logic & science can comprehend. (i.e. science can not yet
>give me a personal answer to the 'poltergeist' type experiences
>that follow me as an abductee, like many others, though ASSAP
>and others have investigated and witnessed the phenomenon).

>OK, Art does go a bit on gut feeling & intuition (the
>'quickening' I think he calls it). But this is what sets us
>above & apart from computers & in my humble opinion will be the
>saving grace of us humans in the coming technological nightmare
>we are currently embarking on.


Marc and all,

Art Bell is great entertainment for some, but I seriously doubt
that he or most of his guests are helping to shed any light on
those things that our science cannot understand.  He has
explained that he is not responsible for the comments of his
guests and relies on his audiance to be discriminating. That's
fine, but it means that you have to sift through a lot of
nonsense to get a few nuggets of interesting news.

I believe that Richard also stated that there are those who view
Art Bell as a guru in the genre we call ufology, and I somehow
find that sad.

But that's just my opinion.






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                         Re: Filer's Files #50-1998

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:09:29 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 03:30:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #50-1998


>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:05:32 -0500
>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Filer's Files #50-1998



George, and all

Thanks again for your continued coverage of our findings. I'd
like to clarify one or two points brought up in FF #50 and also
some of the statements made by Bob Durant. I might also add that
Bob was one of the first "researchers" to contact me directly
and oddly requested I send him what boiled down to my CV, this I
gladly did outlining my job at the University. It struck me at
the time he seem more interested in who I was than with the
results of the photo analysis!, though he was kind enough to
forward copies of some of the articles he has had published,
these were most useful in highlighting just why some of the
debris seen in the images could NOT be balloon debris, again I
have that to thank him for.

To turn to Bobs comments:

>BOB DURANT writes that: "Once again you have misled your
>readers by printing
>J. Bond Johnson's fantasies concerning the Roswell photos.

Bob, these are not fantasies, I have by intention, made my
results available freely on the Internet so that ANYONE who
wishes can reproduce these results. I have so far not received
one response from any party to say they have tried to reproduce
my results using comparable data and software and failed. I can
only suggest you contact the UTA obtain the 11x14's as I did,
scan them at 2400 dpi and using a "simple" graphics package, a
"freebe" copy of Paintshop Pro will do, look for yourself.

YOU DO NOT NEED SOPHISTICATED SOFTWARE TO FIND THESE FEATURES.

>He claims -- and >you published -- that the University of
>Manchester, England and its physics department are studying the
>Roswell photos, and that a professor of physics named Neil
>Morris is working on the project.  The University is doing
>nothing on the photos, nor is their physics department.  Neil
>Morris is neither a physicist nor a professor.

Ok, so we all get crossed wires don't we.

>Morris is a technician attached to the physics
>department at Manchester.  When they need a light bulb changed,
>they call Morris.

And if Bob wants to be pedantic so can I, nope I don't change
light bulbs, our estates and services dept does that <g>.

As an example of the work I AM engaged in, we currently have on
the bench nearing completion a set of in house designed computer
controlled power supplies to drive spectrometer electron optics,
these, destined for a spectrometer in Poland, a similar set of
our electronics has just returned from a successful "run" at
your own Advanced Light Source in Berkley Ca, and another
similar set now at the Uni of Michigan will be off there in the
New Year, and by the way some of the software that goes with the
Michigan equipment I devised and wrote.

Correct I don't have a Phd, but that hasn't stopped either my
late father or myself from obtaining a number of world and
european patents on electronic devices we designed. Needless to
say they (the patents) cost a fortune rather than make one.<g>

>Morris works on the Roswell photos on his spare time, as a
>hobby, using a very ordinary personal computer and very
>ordinary off-the-shelf photo manipulation software.

All true AND it drives my wife to distraction at times!!

The PC I put together from parts, Pentium 266, 64meg of ram,
Matrox 4meg graphics card, 15" monitor, currently aprox 4gig of
disk storage. Nothing special by todays standards so you people
out there should be able to get the same results with similar
hardware.

>See his web site, and check all this out.  I hasten to add
>that Morris is perfectly honest about who he is and what he is
>doing. You might do a favor for your readers if you would ask
>your friend J. Bond Johnson to share with us some details about
>his years as a psychological warfare specialist working for the
>National Security Council.  Johnson has a doctorate in
>psychology, and retired from the Army reserves as a full
>colonel."  Thanks to Bob Durant.

Bob might like to know that Bond has been quite open about his
background with the members of the RPIT group, as we all have,
but for a little balance Bob might have also mentioned that Bond
has been an ordained Methodist Minister for the last 30+ years
too, and still takes services at his local church.

>Editor�s Note: I stand corrected that Neil Morris is apparently
>not a physicist, although he does work for the Physics
>Department of the University >of Manchester as a technician
>specializing in photography.

Well not actually, it's electronics and computing, though
photography has been a long standing hobby, I was taking
pictures when I was 9-10yrs old, by the time I was around 12 I
was printing and processing them myself, my father was a keen
amature photographer and the bathroom doubled as a darkroom, we
used to make the bathroom "hardware" go the strangest colours.
Later I also became interested in cine photography and home
processed both B+W and colour movie films. I'm still a keen
amature photographer though I don't get shouted at now for
discolouring the bathroom, I let the local processing lab take
the strain.

>He apparently >maintains -- and uses -- the highly technical
>equipment for the Dept. of Physics and Astronomy.

"Builds" should also go between maintains and uses.

>Neil Morris and the RPIT team are uncovering evidence and
>writing within the Ramey photographs that may be significant.
>See website at: http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/index.htm.
>My purpose is to obtain has much information from these
>photographs as possible.

I find this statement at total odds with the above excercise in
FUD. ( Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.)

Neil.
-------------------------------------------------------

Neil Morris@Home.
Email:             Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk






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                                Leanne Martin

From: Jsmortell@aol.com
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:55:04 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 03:59:35 -0500
Subject: Leanne Martin


I received this email privately by the sender.  I feel strongly
about what this person had to say, and so I am reposting
it sans the person's name..... Jim

> Dear Jim,

>I'm a relative newcomer to the list. I consider
>myself an abductee and, my children, as well. Thank you for
>taking the responsibility of answering Leanne's posts. They are
>hurtful, to some degree, to me but I don't feel I'm in any
>position to defute her, nor would I deem it sociably acceptable
>because I AM new and feel it would be presumptuous.

It is not at all presumptuous, <snip> ... if you feel from your
heart, something which the list may hear, then come right out
with it.  There is only one major caveat, (Teri).... and that is
once you post something, be prepared for a barrage the likes of
which has not been heard or seen since Bagdad the other night.

Feelings "for" and "agin" are very strong, but I believe that no
one, i mean NO ONE, should be ridiculed to the extent that
Martin has done...... it is uncalled for, and she brought to the
table, subjects which have no place on this list or in this
discussion, religion and the Virgin Birth.  She has reduced
herself immeasureably by her reaction.  Any sane person would
know this before pressing "send."

So with that one caveat, post away.  And do not feel that as a
newbie you are not entitled to "mix it up" a bit just like the
rest of us.  We all put our socks on the same way, whether we
write books, jokes or nuttin, honey.  Just be prepared for the
worst.  If you can take it, so can they!

I am copying UpDates with your post and my answer, but removing
all reference to names, the list should see this.


>Nevertheless, I am grateful to you for responding to Leanne's
>posts and I hope that some of what you say will get through to
>her.

> Merry Christmas to you and your family.

And a merry Christmas to you too, <snip>.






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                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 11:42:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 03:59:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


In consulting my well thumbed copy of Mr. Clark's three volume
encyclopedia [my copy is tabbed, cross indexed and annotated] I
find only a few rather uninteresting references to Sherman J.
Larsen, to wit:

Vol. 1: 139, 143-44
Vol. 3: 227, 529

This is quite surprising in view of the rather amazing and
impressive person he seems to have been.

For instance:

1) Mr. Larsen's military background in the Army's
Counterintelligence Corps (CIC) is not mentioned although it was
mentioned that Larsen was an insurance salesman.  Now which of
these two items is more relevant to Mr. Larsen's career as a UFO
investigator?

Is there any doubt?

I really do have to question Mr. Clark's editorial judgement
here, don't you?  In fact, without the current discussion on
this list many, many people would never have discovered anything
about Mr. Larsen's military background, would they?

2) Nor is their any discussion of the role he played in
transferring NICAP's files to CUFOS.  Oh where, oh where, could
those (Army/Navy/Marine) files be, oh where oh where could they
be???

3) Sadly none of Mr. Larsen's excellent contributions to the UFO
literature are cited in the encyclopedia other his article on
the founding of CUFOS published in the IUR.

I am beginning to wonder if Mr. Clark knew Mr. Larsen at all...

Gary

\_______________________________________________/

 UFO UpDates - Toronto - updates@globalserve.net
 A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated
 by Errol Bruce-Knapp - 416-691-0716

 UFO UpDates Archives are available at:
 http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

 'Strange Days...Indeed' - available live via
 Real Audio 11:00pm EST, Sunday nights at:





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                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:13:34 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 04:12:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:23:14 -0800
>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 16:40:26 PST
>>Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:07:26 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


><snip>

>>Ah, Jan, you think you can fool us? It's pretty clear, as
>>Gary-logic would inform us, that government agents such as
>>Keyhoe and Hall were deep-sixing the sensitive government
>>documents before you ever got to see them. Or maybe _you_ are a
>>government agent. Remember, Gary's already hinted darkly that
>>_I_ am one, so if I'm one -- and all you have to do is to
>>disagree with him to come under suspicion -- you might as well
>>be one, too. Why, I'll bet this list is crawling with others of
>>our kind. It's just too bad that Gary is too smart for us.

>Ah, Jerry, everyone is a government agent except thee and me.
>And sometimes I'm not so sure about thee.

>The evidence will some come out as soon as the Free Mason's
>writings are decoded.  BTW do we know if Sherm Larson was a
>Mason?

>Covertly yours,
>--
>Jan Aldrich

Watch him Jerry. I know for a fact that Jan hangs around nuclear
submarine bases.






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                         Re: Filer's Files #50-1998

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:20:31 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 04:21:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #50-1998


>Subj:  UFO UpDate: Re: Filer's Files #50-1998
>Date:  12/19/98 10:10:01 AM Pacific Standard Time
>From:  updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)

>From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto

>Source: http://ufoinfo.com/filer/1998/ff_5098.html

>Filer's Files #50-1998
>MUFON Skywatch Investigations
>George A. Filer: MUFON Eastern Director,
>December 17, 1998
>Majorstar@aol.com (609) 654-0020

><snip>
>
>ROSWELL PHOTO CONTROVERSY CONTINUES
>
>My thesis is if we can discover what happened on July 8,
>1947, fifty years ago, we can help solve the mystery of
>Roswell. Numerous books have been written claiming an
>alien craft crashed, but they are based mostly on old
>memories and testimony. Intelligence officer Major Jessie
>Marcel had picked up some of the debris on a ranch near
>Roswell, showed it to his family and brought it to Roswell Air
>Base for examination. On July 8, Colonel Blanchard
>announced that the Army Air Force had captured a flying
>saucer. Major Marcel and the debris were flown to Fort Worth,
>Texas. James Bond Johnson was ordered by his newspaper
>the Fort Worth Star-Telegram to go to the base and photograph
>the debris. When he arrived at the Eighth Air Force Commander=92s
>office, he was met by Colonel Dubose the Chief of Staff.
>General Ramey was not there, but a still wrapped package of
>debris was on the floor. Colonel Dubose and Bond Johnson
>unwrapped the debris and spread it out to prepare for the
>photo shoot.

There remain two unwrapped packages of the debris in clear view
in the Ramey office photos, including in the Newton photo.

>Bond Johnson remembers the material smelled
>burned. Fifteen minutes later, General Ramey arrived
>clutching a piece of paper in his hand. First, a photo of
>Ramey was taken with only the back of the paper visible. It
>was decided that Col. Dubose should join in the pictures.
>Apparently, General Ramey opened and read the paper since
>the writing was now visible in the later photo. No one seemed
>to know the exact identity of the debris. Major Marcel was
>also photographed. Bond Johnson left quickly because he
>was trying to meet a newspaper deadline. We can now
>assume that Major Marcel attempted to convince General
>Ramey that this debris was special and had alien writing on it.
>Frankly, his career probably depended on it. About an hour
>later, after the message had been read thoroughly and we
>assume the debris was closely examined Weather Officer
>Warrant Officer Irving Newton was asked to come over and
>take a look. He explained he was the only weather officer on
>duty. In sworn testimony to the Air Force he claims "Several
>minutes later General Ramey himself called and said get your
>ass over here, if you don't have a car take the first one with a
>key" We have to make some assumptions here that General
>Ramey was reacting to the orders in the Confidential
>message and this debris was very important. Extremely
>important for General Ramey to go so far as to tell W. O.
>Newton to steal a car to get there. Apparently, a second
>cameraman besides Bond Johnson was quickly summoned.
>When Newton arrived he states in a sworn statement to the
>Air Force in the Roswell Report: "I was met at the door by a
>Lt. Col. or Col. who told me that someone had found a flying
>saucer in New Mexico and they had it in the General's office.
>A flight had been set up to fly it to Wright Patterson AFB,
>Ohio, but the General suspicion that it might be a
>meteorological equipment or something of that nature and
>wanted it examined by meteorological personnel." --Snip--
>Newton also states, "While I was examining the debris, Major
>Marcel was picking up pieces of the target sticks and trying to
>convince me that some of the notations on the sticks were
>alien writings. There were figures on the sticks lavender or
>pink in color, appeared to be weather faded markings with no
>rhyme or reason. He did not convince me these were alien
>writings. " Essentially, Major Marcel's career was on the line.
>The Army Air Force had already announced to the world they
>had captured a flying saucer. Major Marcel saw a great deal
>on in a field near Roswell, he had shown his family and his
>bosses were in an embarrassing situation.


In recent discussions with Philip Klass, he surmises that Newton
probably did not return home to show off his "ET trophies" until
AFTER his return from delivering the debris to General Ramey in
Fort Worth. Klass points out that as a squared-away regular
field grade intelligence staff officer Marcel very likely would
not have reported to the 8th Air Force commanding general's
office wearing scuffy boondockers and a crumpled, soiled flight
suit if he had had an opportunity to go home and change into a
fresh uniform after his foray to the Roswell crash site. As an
AAF pilot cadet during WWII and remembering the emphasis upon
starched and creased uniforms I fully agree with Phil on these
theories -- though we differ on MANY other points re Roswell!

>We can assume Newton saw what he was supposed to see
>based on what General Ramey wanted. Newton then claims
>he easily identified the debris. He states: "I was convinced at
>the time that this was a balloon with a RAWIN target and I
>remain convinced." Certainly at first look most people would
>identify the debris has belonging to a RAWIN target reflector
>and a balloon. But, we have some unanswered questions.
>Why does the debris appear different? The two sets of
>photographs taken only an hour apart seem to show a
>sanitized version of the debris. Several key beams or sticks
>are missing. Last week, I attempted several times to send this
>comparison to our readers. Most were eventually able to
>receive them, but many people wrote to complain. Another
>problem is that we may have a cropped version of Newton=92s
>photograph accidentally cutting off some of the important
>evidence.

>Photographs had already been taken of the debris an hour
>earlier, so why was it so important to get additional
>photographs taken of the debris? Even though Newton
>identified the debris as part of a weather balloon it was flown
>to Wright Patterson for further analysis. The Army and the Air
>Force have always stated this was standard off the shelf
>materials. Why couldn't the dozens of military people who saw
>the material before Newton identify it as the mundane? Was it
>sanitized so Newton would identify the debris as something
>mundane. Remember the photographs taken in General
>Ramey=92s office are virtually the only government approved
>evidence we have to prove anything important happened in
>1947. Controversial MJ-12 documents have been declared
>fakes by the government.

>BOB DURANT writes that: "Once again you have misled
>your readers by printing J. Bond Johnson's fantasies
>concerning the Roswell photos.


Bob Durant continues to expose his ignorance re the remarkable
findings of the RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team)
volunteers. Instead of embarrasing himself with his ignorance by
taking cheap pot shots at this very dedicated international
group of photo analysts, he MIGHT have joined this distinguished
group in their quest to finally solve the Riddle of Roswell. How
can fully displayed symbols and other anomalous objects
carefully unearthed from the Ramey office photos be dubbed
"fantasies?" Again and again the RPIT has invited wider
assistance and has NOT drawn any final conclusions as to the
preliminary revelations of their remarkable findings! Durant --
along with other UFOlogists -- has been invited repeatedly to
roll up his sleeves and PARTICIPATE in this fascinating project.
That he chooses to remain aloof -- but continues to snipe away
-- leaves me simply underwhelmed. And also diminishes any
comments he might make.

>He claims -- and you published -- that the University of
>Manchester, England and its
>physics department are studying the Roswell photos, and that
>a professor of physics named Neil Morris is working on the
>project. The University is doing nothing on the photos, nor is
>their physics department. Neil Morris is neither a physicist nor
>a professor. Morris is a technician attached to the physics
>department at Manchester. When they need a light bulb
>changed, they call Morris. Morris works on the Roswell photos
>on his spare time, as a hobby, using a very ordinary personal
>computer and very ordinary off-the-shelf photo manipulation
>software. See his web site, and check all this out. I hasten to
>add that Morris is perfectly honest about who he is and what
>he is doing. You might do a favor for your readers if you would
>ask your friend J. Bond Johnson to share with us some details
>about his years as a psychological warfare specialist working
>for the National Security Council. Johnson has a doctorate in
>psychology, and retired from the Army reserves as a full
>colonel." Thanks to Bob Durant.

>Editor=92s Note: I stand corrected that Neil Morris is apparently
>not a physicist, although he does work for the Physics
>Department of the University of Manchester as a technician
>specializing in photography. He apparently maintains -- and
>uses -- the highly technical equipment for the Dept. of Physics
>and Astronomy. Neil Morris and the RPIT team are
>uncovering evidence and writing within the Ramey
>photographs that may be significant. See website at:
>http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/index.htm. My
>purpose is to obtain has much information from these
>photographs as possible. Dr. James Bond Johnson
>pioneered in studying the etiology of post-traumatic stress
>disorder, having interviewed returned prisoners of war,
>escapees and evadees during three wars. He served as
>cadet pilot in WWII, a Marine Corps captain during the
>Korean conflict and an Army psychological operations
>specialist during the Vietnam War. He has been a consultant
>to the National Security Council; he served on the Eisenhower
>Commission, which revised the Code of Conduct for
>prisoners of war and was a Pentagon consultant to
>"Operation Homecoming," the Department of Defense
>rehabilitation program for POWs from Vietnam. He retired as
>a Colonel in the reserves.

Bob Durant continues to make his outrageous and completely
baseless attacks upon the dedicated work of RPIT and its
dedicated photo analysts. _At_no_time_ has Neil Morris
misrepresented his credentials, his work with RPIT, or his
connection with the University of Manchester. And NEVER to my
knowledge has any such error been reported. Durant's mean
spirited attacks and utter fabrications certainly are not
designed to help in solving the Riddle of Roswell! The question
comes to mind: why is Bob Durant, a former Navy operative, SO
DEDICATED to NOT honoring or even recognizing ANY significant
RPIT discoveries re the Roswell Incident? Just exactly what are
HIS credentials as a Roswell expert? Was HE there?





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                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:32:11 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 04:25:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:18:11 PST


<snip>

>You have a Ph.D., think back to your studies and the importance
>of the 'scientific method'.

<snip>

_You_ are telling _me_ to apply the scientific method?

Lady, I got shrapnel in me that's older than you.  My response
to you is ...  _Horse Hockey_.  Poop's poop now matter how you
wrap it.  This discussion became personal with one of your last
posts.  It is time for me to end my part in it.

Besides, as my wife tells it, "You can't win an argument
with a woman!"  Even if that woman's a Lady!

"Merry Christmas.  And HUMBUG!"






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   Dec > Dec 20

                 NASA contractor sets record straight! [URL]

From: Bob Soetebier <bikebob@mo.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 20:02:40 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 04:38:08 -0500
Subject: NASA contractor sets record straight! [URL]


Be sure to check out the statement at this URL:

http://bbs.rowlandnet.com/cgi-bin/WebX?14@@.ee6c827/44


Bob Soetebier


    Tailwinds to you...            See you ON the road!

    /// BICYCLE BOB ///            bikebob@mo.net





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                 Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell

From: Bob Soetebier <bikebob@mo.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 20:55:00 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 04:43:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell


>>From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk>
>>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:48:31 -0000
>>Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:12:14 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell

>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:29:22 -0600 (CST)
>From: Bob Soetebier <bikebob@mo.net>
>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell

>I couldn't agree more with Richard H. Hall's comments (appended
>below).


>Bob Soetebier


>>Hi Bob & Co:

>>I'll stand by Art Bell on this one.

>>There are more things to Heaven, Earth, & UFOs than 'our'
>>facts, logic & science can comprehend. (i.e. science can not yet
>>give me a personal answer to the 'poltergeist' type experiences
>>that follow me as an abductee, like many others, though ASSAP
>>and others have investigated and witnessed the phenomenon).

Marc...and others...if my interpretation of Richard Hall's
comments on/about Art Bell is correct, then Hall is essentially
lamenting that by the media (and this includes Art Bell)
spending much/most of its time highlighting the "sensational"
(always a "ratings booster"...right?), then the much more
credible cases end up being overshadowed. Such overshadowing,
ufortunately, more times than not, is the norm.

(BTW...just in case anyone is left with the impression that
Richard Hall only focuses on "nuts & bolts", please be sure to
read the additional information which I've appended below. It
serves to illustrate that he is open to other issues, too.)


Bob Soetebier

-------------------------------------------------------------

In addition to his being an Iowa MUFON State Section Director,
Daryl Stangl is also Assistant State Director for Iowa Mufon.
He is also a hypnotherapist also who works with abductees.

Daryl also runs a group called the MARSS group. It is the
Midwest Abduction Research and Support System. It is a support
group for abductees in southeastern Iowa. He is also a
co-founder of the "Bridges" group.

Here follows some pertinent quoted comments about Daryl Stangl
and his "Bridges" group that were made by Richard Hall in his
monthly column in the September, 1998 (Volume 13, No. 5) issue
of "UFO" [Sunland, CA] magazine. (Someone else was kind enough
to type up for me the quoted info that follows. --Bob S.):

-----

 On March 28, 1998, I attended a session of something called
"Bridges," billed as a workshop for an "abductee support group
network," in Chantilly, Virginia. I khew and respected the
hostess, Melanie Green, but knew absolutely nothing about her
partners, Michelle Guerin and Daryl Stangl. Thus being aware of
the numerous self-appointed "experts" and opportunistic
exploiters of the UFO phenomenon, I approached the meeting with
considerable skepticism.

 As the day unfolded, I was pleasantly surprised. No giant egos.
No claims to have all the answers. No one path to truth.

 Now comes "Bridges," which appears to me to be a highly worthy
effort by the three founders, who have "been there," to cut
across conventional lines and offer support to abductees who are
in need of help and guidance.Their selflessness and willingness
to reach out to help others, regardless of individual beliefs,
is praiseworthy.


More information on "Bridges" can be obtained by contacting:

Daryl Stangl

Email: stangld@aea15.k12.ia.us







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                  Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 05:59:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 05:59:08 -0500
Subject: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'




Source: http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/a1998/dec/ray.htm

Ray Santilli Claims FOX Report on Alien Autopsy is
Completely Wrong


From Ed Gehrman

Several days ago I read an article in the news section of UFO
Folklore (one of the best sources for up-to-the-minute UFO
related news), ridiculing the Alien Autopsy footage and Ray
Santilli.

Since I have been one of the few Ufologists to believe that the
Alien Autopsy is exactly what Ray Santilli and the Cameraman say
it is, namely, footage of an alien being dissected by US Army
doctors.

The alien is from somewhere in New Mexico and arrived in a craft
that was found and secured by US Army personnel. The footage was
taken in shot in 1947.

I have defended Ray since I first viewed the complete autopsy
footage (not the fox version) and have established an email
connection to check with him when situations like the Ellen Gray
article pop up. I have found Ray Santilli to be an honest and
interesting person. He has been straight with me.

After reading the Ellen Gray article I contacted Ray and asked
him about the Fox program. This is his reply along with the
complete Ellen Gray article

Ed,

Please circulate this message for me.

THE TENT FOOTAGE

The Fox broadcast relies heavily on something that has become
known as the Tent Footage. This is not the Alien Autopsy
footage.

During 1995 we informed Fox (Bob Kiviat) that the Tent Footage
was not safe to use and may not be genuine. This was known to
them. At that time Bob Kiviat was so desperate to use the film
that he constructed a disclaimer stating that the Tent Footage
may not be related to the AA film and may not be genuine. He was
to run the disclaimer during the transmission . In the end I won
and the Tent Film was pulled from the original transmission of
the AA film.

Now 1998,  Bob needed material for his new show. Bob re-visited
the Tent Film and decided to construct the story that will be
shown on December 1998. Of course his main thrust will be the
"shock horror" of just discovering the story surrounding the
Tent Footage (maybe I should send him his hand written
disclaimer of 1995).

I have already gone on record with the full Tent Footage story,
however for the benefit of doubt here it is again.:

The Tent Footage was the first film material I collected from
the cameraman, it was in the form of 16mm film and in very poor
condition. I brought it back to England and asked a studio
facility in Milton Keynes to retrieve whatever image they could
from it. Approximately a week (maybe longer) after delivery the
Studio in Milton Keynes presented me with the film which has
become known as the ""Tent Footage" I was told that this was all
that could be retrieved from the film.

I had informed the cameraman by telephone that we were able to
retrieve some image and indeed showed the film to Philip Mantel
and other interested parties. I returned to the States later to
collect the main film and showed the "Tent Footage" on VHS to
the cameraman.

At this point he stated that he did not remember either the
image being portrayed or the style in which it had been filmed.
I was concerned but continued to collect the remaining film and
returned to the United Kingdom.

Upon my return I contacted the studio in Milton Keynes to find
out more about the images from the "Tent Footage".  To my
surprise Andy (my friend and owner of the studio) admitted to
playing a joke on me. They were unable to retrieve anything of
consequence from the film therefore he staged a spoof never
thinking that I would want to use it. As a result part of the
film (Tent Footage) returned was hoaxed by him as a practical
Joke.

This meant that with regard to the "Tent Footage" I was
uncertain as to what was real and what was not, also I had
fallen out with Andy.  As a result I informed all parties that
had come into contact with the Tent Footage that I was not
confident with regard to the Tent Footage and further that it
should not be used in conjunction with the autopsy film. It was
the only thing I could do as I did not want it to compromise the
main film.

Later in the summer of 1995 Andy decided to use the abandoned
"Tent Footage" in a video he was producing for a third party and
upon notification of the project I bought the film from him and
out of the market place.

I believe I did the responsible thing and that my action's in
removing the"Tent Footage" from circulation at the very
beginning of the campaign was the right thing to do.

Both Andy and Keith at the studio are long time friends of mine
and have supported me many times in the past, it was because of
this relationship they instigated the joke. I am certain that no
malice was intended by Andy or his company which is why the
matter never went any further.

My position regarding the Autopsy film and the reels recovered
remains unchanged. Any discussion regarding the Tent Footage is
completely irrelevant. Neither Andy, The Studio in Milton Keynes
or anyone associated with them have anything whatsoever to do
with the Autopsy film.

Ray Santilli



(By Ellen Gray)December 9, 1998

Fool us twice: That's Fox's ratings strategy Waste not, want
not.That's apparently the motto over at Fox Broadcasting, which
isn't above eating its dead in the name of ratings. (So far,
this is only ametaphor, but stay tuned for "World's Greatest
Network Executive Cannibals.")

You remember "Alien Autopsy: Fact or Fiction," don't you? Sure
you do. Built around a snippet of black-and-white film that
allegedly showed doctors slicing up an alien body in Roswell,
N.M., in 1947, this "reality" show was such a hoot that even Fox
Mulder took a shot at it on "The X-Files." But way back in 1995,
Fox the network did big business with the "autopsy," which won
its time slot among 18- to 49-year-olds - people old enough to
know better - and was rerun the following week, with additional
"footage."

That was then, this is now. On Dec. 28, the network will air
another special. "World's Greatest Hoaxes, Secrets Revealed,"
hosted by Lance Henriksen ("Millennium"), will probably alarm a
lot of Fox's loyal viewers, as it seeks to explode such
cherished myths as Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster and the
existence of flying saucers.

And, oh, yes - "the alien autopsy." Get this: After three years,
it's being declared "fiction."

"Now, for the first time anywhere, one of the actors who took
part in staging the alien autopsy ruse steps forward, and
all-new footage and NASA-type video enhancements shed new light
on how one of the biggest hoaxes of all time was actually
accomplished," says a prepared statement from Fox. "Also, other
inside sources and top professionals dispute the authenticity of
the famed autopsy, exposing further secrets about the origin of
the footage."

I feel a little like that Adam Sandler character in "The Wedding
Singer" (spend enough time contemplating alien autopsies and
you'll start feeling like an Adam Sandler character, too). When
the woman who's stood him up at the altar tells him why she
didn't want to get married, he replies, "Once again, things
things that should've been brought to my attention yesterday!"
Or even three years ago.

An actor steps forward for the first time? Didn't he stop by
three years ago to pick up his paycheck? Does anyone at Fox
really think we're going to believe that "Alien Autopsy" was a
good-faith effort on the part of the network, and that this
"hoax" was perpetrated on anyone but the viewers?

Do they think we're idiots? Of course they do. Millions of us
have tuned in to stare at a giant tumor, to watch cars crash and
animals attack. As the three other major networks keep trying to
fill their circus rings with dramas and sitcoms and movies (the
real high-wire acts of the '90s), Fox lures a sizable number of
viewers off to the sideshow for an occasional cheap thrill.

No wonder the tent's falling in. Not that I'm against coming
clean. I wouldn't mind a show, for instance, that followed the
newsmagazines around with a big shovel and exposed some of their
dirty little secrets: the investigations that warn of clear and
present dangers but are nearly always timed to coincide with
sweeps, the relentless tie- ins with network entertainment
shows, that funny lens they use to shoot Barbara Walters.

There may even be a place for this on the entertainment side:

"Dharma & Greg"? Not really married.

"Touched by an Angel"? Roma and Della, not really heavenly
messengers.

"Buffy the Vampire Slayer"? Not actually a high school student.

"The X-Files"? All true. Every word.

At least until they tell us otherwise.

elgray@phillynews.com

by fax at 215-854-5852 or by mail at the Philadelphia Daily
News, Box 7788, Philadelphia, Pa. 19101.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 20

                  New MJ-12/Glenn Pace/Element 115 Baloney

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:03:07 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 06:16:34 -0500
Subject: New MJ-12/Glenn Pace/Element 115 Baloney


Dear List Members,

There's more MJ-12 baloney on the Net.

Art Bell recently (Dec 18) interviewed Linda Moulton Howe who
played a tape of her interview with Glenn Pace. For some reason
and it is very embarrassing to read this, she tried very hard to
put words in the mouth of Pace to the effect that the "Ozarks"
UFO crash in the "early 40's" he supposedly heard about in the
early 60's was very precisely near Cape Girardeau, Missouri, in
1941, but he wouldn't budge! Then she tried to put words in the
his mouth about Element 115 and finally succeeded with her
leading questions!

Pace proceeded to spin a tale about how he heard about Element
115 from Bob Lazar over a recent radio interview and that it was
the same element he had heard about when he supposedly headed
the so-called "Diagnostic Photography Department" as a
22-year-old at the Nevada Test Site beginning in 1961 and up to
1963. Unfortunately for Pace, Lazar claims that it was he
(Lazar) who FIRST identified the mysterious UFO propulsion
substance as Element 115 in 1989 or more than 25 years after
Pace supposedly heard about it!!

Pace has confabulated elements of the Scully hoax (UFO crash
near Aztec, NM, powered by "magnetic" energy, crash caused by
"pinhole" puncture in a "porthole" which burned the aliens) with
other elements of UFOlogical folklore such as the Wilbert Smith
memo (he mentions that his MJ-12 friend at Camp Mercury said UFO
magnetic propulsion was "more highly classified than the A-
Bomb") and of course with the MJ-12 hoax.

Pace claims he played cards with an MJ-12 person who drove
around with an MJ-12 "license plate" on his car "that said that"
(MJ-12) on the plate, presumably meaning the plate said "MJ-12."
Pretty stupid thing to do if MJ-12 was such a supersecret
organization to have "MJ-12" license plates which could only
provoke unwanted questions. He said that he and the others drove
around in "Pintos" for official cars at NTS/Nellis/Camp
Mercury/Area 51.

Problem is that Ford did not make Pintos until 1971, certainly
not as early as 1961-3, when Pace claims he drove around in a
Pinto.

See: http://members.tripod.com/~poisonpinto/pinto.html

Ooops!

Pace clearly was influenced as a boy growing up in Farmington,
NM, by the mass UFO sightings of March 17-18, 1950, which he
remembered. He claims that sightings happened again around 1952
after which he saw an article in the paper about the Aztec crash
caused by a "pinhole" puncture in the "porthole" which story was
denied in the paper the next day. He claims he rode horses with
friends out to the canyon and saw tire tracks but the saucer had
already been taken away. But this was still back in March 1950
not 1952 when a mass wave of Scully-inspired
dead-alien-saucer-crash stories made the papers.

Later, his card-playing MJ-12 buddy confirmed the Aztec crash
was a UFO as well other crashes at Roswell and the Ozarks. And
Truman set up MJ-12, with 12 members accountable to no one, not
even the President, replacing vacancies on the committee by vote
of the other 11, having its own "deep budget," not even JFK when
he visited NTS was to be shown everything.

I got this version of the transcript directly from Art Bell's
Web site and it is complete with the Part 2 that Stig Agermose
missed posting on UFO UpDates. Stig's version has other slight
differences as well. This direct version corrects the
transcriber's misspelling of Girardeau as "Jorodoh" (I think) in
just one place but not elsewhere and it misspells Glenn Pace's
name as "Gary" in the headings.

I can't understand why this is labeled "Dec 20, 1998" when today
is only Dec 19 and the transcript is labeled Dec 18.

Brad Sparks

COPY OF DOCUMENT

Rowland Net Art Bell Talk Reading Room Transcripts Linda Howe /
Gary [sic!!!] Pace on Dec 20 [sic], 1998

This is Linda's Dreamland interview. Also available via our
Sound Clips page. This text prepared by John R. Malone
(Erindale8@Aol.com)

sysop - 03:12am Dec 18, 1998 PST (#1 of 2)
Keith Rowland or Karen Day

AB: And now we go to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. She is an
environmental reporter, has done documentaries; won awards;
science reporter for this program; investigator into all kinds
of high strangesness. And, here she is! Hi, Linda!

LMH: Hi, Art! Well, this year I reported on a crashed disk
between Farmington and Aztec, New Mexico in my latest book,
Glimpses of other Realities, VII, now available in bookstores
and on the internet at Barnes and Nobl.com and Amazon.com. I
show a computer rendition that looks like two silver saucers
glued rim to rim with a small dome on top based on one alleged
government insiders story about a crash near aztec new mexico.
The insider said a porthole had a puncture in it about the
diameter of a pencil. Small bodies were inside the disk, badly
charred, as if exposed to high heat. After studying the
propulsion system, scientists concluded the vehicle used
magnetic or gravitational fields to move around the earth. I
also show a 1950 headline in the Farmington Daily Times
newspaper that says, "Huge Saucer Armada Jolts Farmington Dozens
of eyewitnesses watched more than a hundred silver discs fly low
over the town on St. Patrick's weekend, March 17th, 1950. The
story even made the Denver Post. Multiple crash sites of
interplanetary or extraterrestrial craft in New Mexico was the
subject of an interview we did with Rob and Ryan wood we did on
Coast to Coast as they released documents leaked to them from a
mysterious source.

AB: Let me quickly add we've got 25 more documents in JPG easily
viewable fashioned on our website viewable right
now.

LMH: And that's wonderful because this is important material
for everyone to read. After two years of study, the documents are
still holding up as legitimate to the Truman, Eisenhower and
Kennedy years. One document even mentions a 1941 disc retrieval
in Cape Girardeau, Missouri. And, the man listening to the
interview, contacted me afterward, to say to me that he grew up
in Farmington and knew for a fact that a saucer craft came down
or crashed near Aztec in 1952. This is several years even after
1947. He also insists that President Truman's special studies
group called Majestic-12, or MJ-12 was real, because he worked
in a project at Nellis Air Force Base's Nevada test site with
MJ-12 people.

This is the first time he has gone on record for radio about
his own knowledge or experiences. His name is Glenn Pace, now 58
years old and living in the southeastern United States. Between
1961 and 1963 he worked in the diagnostic photographic
department based at camp Mercury, about 65 miles north of Las
Vegas at the Nevada test site. There, about 90% of the atomic
bomb tests were conducted by Lawrence Radiation Laboratory, 10%
by Los Alamos with general support from EG&G. Glenn Pace said
most often he was assigned to work under German physicist Otto
Kraus who died a few years ago. Mr. Pace said he was shocked to
hear us talk about information on the radio that he knew was
true, but he had remained silent about it for 35 years. Glenn
Pace --- [Linda starts playing a tape recording of her interview
with Glenn Pace.]

AB: All right

GP: [very emotional] I knew that there were multiple crashes.
But, I wasn't able to tell that. I couldn't ever say anything
about that. I could tell if you guys come up with this
information. This was the information that released me to be
able to say what I want to say.

LMH: OK. In the capacity that you were working in, can you give

GP: I was in charge of the diagnostic photography department at
the test site.

LMH: Were you at Area 51, S4?

GP: Yeah, I been in all of those area. But, I mainly worked
over in Yucca Flats Area 9, Area 12. Some of those areas, but
I've been to Area 51, all of these.

LMH: Could we go back to whatever is the first year that you
had knowledge

GP: I gotta explain to you a little bit about my history,
because it all won't tie in unless you know all of that. And,
that is, I grew up in Farmington, New Mexico, [northwest corner,
northwest of Los Alamos] in the 40's and 50's. Alright, the
first time we saw UFOs over Farmington was somewhere in the
neighborhood of about 49, I think. I mean, some of these dates,
you know, have slipped my mind exact dates. I have some paper
somewhere on some of this, you know, but I don't remember the
exact date. My dad and we saw em at the playground. Briefly, we
saw em. We didn't see em as much as my Dad and a bunch of other
people downtown. My dad was a shop foreman for Sugar Lake Garage
at the time in Farmington. A bunch of them saw em and watched em
for 15, 20 minutes in the late 40's. Right after that, the Air
Force come to our house and I was still a kid at that time I
would have been 9 years old. And, the thing that stuck in my
mind is I remember how they put my dad through the mill as far
as questions, and all this stuff, and what he didn't see and
what he did see, and he really didn't see this, and he.. you
know, all this kind of stuff was going on.

LMH: And, they would have a jurisdiction to do this over your
father because, why?

GP: They just did it. They didn't have a jurisdiction period. I
know now. They just come and did it.

LMH: But, your father was a civilian?

GP: Yeah.

LMH: And who was doing this questioning?

GP: Somebody in Air Force uniforms. I don't know they were.

LMH: And what had your father reported, exactly?

GP: Well, they reported seeing the UFOs over Farmington. And,
several of them, and in patterns. And we saw a glimpse of them
from the playground just before the bell rang, but then they
made us go in and we couldn't watch them. That was the first
time we saw em.

The second time we saw em was in 52, it think it was, 52. We
had just gone to the playground for recess and we played soccer
during recess. And, we were in a soccer game. Somebody happened
to look up and go, "Hey, Look up there!" And, we looked up and
there was, oh, somewhere in the neighborhood of about 30 or 40
UFOs in a triangular pattern over Farmington, at about, what I
know now from being air traveling and all that, was probably 4
to 5,000 feet over the town, which would put em at about 9,000
feet - Farmington is 5,250 high uh, they were in a triangular
pattern and, uh, the inner pattern of em made a circular shift.
In other words, it looked like they were cutting a hole or
something. Then, they bolted right towards Durango just, I mean,
just in a coupla seconds they were gone!

And, uh, the next day it come out in the paper it come out, my
mom and dad read me this article, it come out and said that a UFO
had crashed at Aztec and named the canyon. And, it just
happened that my friend and I rode horses out there all the time.
We had our own horses and we rode out in it so that's why I
remember this canyon. And, the UFO had a pinhole in the
porthole. And, there were 3 charred bodies inside about 4 foot
high in stature. And, the government come and took the crash, the
craft away.

LMH: And you think this was what year?

GP: This was about '52. And, so, the next day it come out in
the paper that this was a big hoax, that there was nothin' to
this. But, this was, when the hoax come out, was on a Friday.
My friend and I decided to go spend the night with these friends
of ours in Aztec, and they had horses, too.

And, the next day we rode out to this canyon. We got out there,
and there were tire tracks everywhere out there. Truck tracks,
tire car tracks, all that kind of stuff. And we'd ridden out
before and there wasn't any tracks out there. So, from that
point on, I believe that the article that come out the first
day was the right article, not the article denying it.

LMH: Did you ever see anything there that was the crash?

GP: Uh, we didn't see the crash, no. They had already taken it
away. . So, then, I got married. I got in the music business and
I got married. And, was working in Albuquerque for Limbaugh
Ariel Photography. And, uh, a friend of mine named Rufus Lane
Bond the Third, which I've also tried to find in the last
fifteen/twenty years, and I can't find Rufus anywhere. And,
you'll understand why I can't find him in a little bit.

Through a friend of his, he got an interview with LRL, the
photography department.

LMH: With Livermore Research Labs?

GP: Yeah. With Livermore, but for the test site. And, got a job
out there and left and moved away from Albuquerque and him and I
were good friends we went around all the time together and all.

About a month and a half later, he called me back and he said,
"They're gonna be hiring some more people in the photography
department out here, would you be interested in taking a job out
here?" And it paid really good at the time. And, the per diem
was good. This was before Kennedy cut out the per diem and all
that stuff. So, I said, "Sure." So, they flew me out there. I
interviewed with them. They hired me. And, I went out to
Mercury, Camp Mercury, right there off the Tonopah Highway.

LMH: Mm-huh.

GP: They put me in charge of the diagnostic photography
department. At this point, I was a twenty-two year old kid. I
felt like I was forty. But, you know, looking back, I'm going, I
can't believe these people jeopardized a whole shot on a
twenty-two year old! You know? I mean, I didn't feel that way
at the time. But, I was in charge of all the diagnostic
photography, film traces and everything that had to do with all
the shots.

LMH: And you were where then, physically, at the Nellis Air
Force Base Range? Where were you officed?

GP: Well, we had always checked into Mercury every morning,
when we got to the that's where we kept our cars. We had.. They
furnished us Pinto's. And, we'd get our cars and then we'd drive
out to the areas that we were working in. And, the areas,
depending on where the shot was, and what we were doing.. but,
most of the time I worked in Area 9 which is right south of the
Sudan crater. Uh, I worked in Area 12 which is north of the
Sudan Crater. Uh, just over the ridge from Area 51. And, like I
say, the photographers were the only one's allowed binoculars on
the test site. So, from some of the areas that I went to up on
the mesa, you could look into Area 51.

And, this is what prompted the conversation that pursued
because, a lot of times when we had shots at the test site, I
might be stuck out there three or four days in a row, because we
would do a dry run every four hours. They had to make sure all
the scope traces were still up to par and everything was ready
for the shot. And, what we would do is, we would auto-cross with
a great heart player. We loved to play hearts and we would play
hearts to pass the time while we were waiting on this shot or on
the next dry run. Or, we would go to the movie at Area 12, or
the movie back at Mercury. Or, we would just get out sometimes,
Rufus and I, would just get out run around at Area 12 on those
roads and things and just look around. Just piddlin' around to
pass the time

And, when they had a dry run ready, Otto would call us on the
radio. We'd go back to the photo trailer and we'd process the
film.

This one time, we got into this conversation because I had seen
the UFO's over at Area 51. And, we'd even seen them over at Yucca
Flats some, and even the Red Badge' people at the test site had
seen the UFO's.

LMH: What exactly did you see?

GP: Well, we saw a craft that, you know, maneuvered.

LMH: Did you see it close enough to see the shape?

GP: Oh, sure. Yeah. Like the ones we saw in Farmingdale. I
mean, basically.

LMH: Okay. Now, can you describe those shapes?

GP: Well, it's, uh, a dish shape with a dome that comes up at a
I mean, I've seen em on, heck, Art Bell had one on his sight the
other night that looked very close to what the one's we saw
looked like. I told my wife, "That's incredibly close to the
aliens and to the UFO's."

And, uh, anyway, this conversation started with Otto. I told
Otto that I had grew up in Farmington, New Mexico. And, I told
him about the two different times we had seen UFO's over
Farmington. And, uh, this part here is the part I've never told
anybody, uh, up to the point - and I would have never told
anybody this till all these documents come forth the other night.
And, those documents are accurate. I can tell you that right
now. I have not even downloaded the documents yet I intend to.
But, I can tell you for what I've heard on the radio those
documents are accurate as heck.

Because, in this card game was a guy from the MJ-12, from the
MJ-12 people. He even had a license plate on his car that said
that. And they were always around the test site, they were in
the cafeterias and stuff. Before Kennedy came to the test site,
that time, there happened to be a group of them sittin' at a
table that I was sittin' right at the table next to, and I
overheard em talkin' about what they were gonna let him see and
what they weren't gonna let him see. And he couldn't see this and
he couldn't see this and he couldn't know about this and he
couldn't know about that You know, I thought, at that point,
that the President could be anything that he wanted to do. And,
I actually learned the President has no authority in this
country except over just basic general stuff, and neither does
the congress. The people higher up are running this country and
have been for a long time.

Anyway, this guy was in this card game with us out there on
this particular shot that we were waitin' on. It was a pretty
experimental' type thing. I asked that night, uh, who was the
MJ-12?

[Linda stops the tape.]

LMH: And, after we come back after the break, you will hear his
description of what a man who said he was working for MJ-12 said
to his questions.

AB: Oh, what an incredible interview! Alright, Linda! Hold it
right there!

[Art plays some theme music before the commercials ]

 (1 following message)





  Rowland Net Art Bell Talk Reading Room Transcripts Linda Howe
/ Gary [sic!!!] Pace on Dec 20 [sic], 1998

  The opinions posted here are those of the users who posted
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providers of this service. Please report system abuse to the
sysop. Copyright 1998 Keith Rowland, All Rights Reserved






  Rowland Net Art Bell Talk Reading Room Transcripts Linda Howe
/ Gary [sic!!] Pace on Dec 20 [sic], 1998

This is Linda's Dreamland interview. Also available via our
Sound Clips page. This text prepared by John R. Malone
(Erindale8@Aol.com)

 (1 previous messages)

sysop - 03:13am Dec 18, 1998 PST (#2 of 2) Keith Rowland or
Karen Day

AB: Back now to Linda Moulton Howe on a very incredible
interview. Linda?

LMH: Hi! To set the scene again, it's the early 1960's at the
Nevada test site. Glenn Pace is playing cards with physicist Otto
Kraus and a man from the MJ-12 staff at the test site

[Linda starts the tape again ]

GP: I asked that night, uh, who was the MJ-12? And, the guy
explained to me, why it was set up and how it was set up.

LMH: And, you're talking at the card game.

GP: Uh-huh.

LMH: And, what did he say?

GP: He said that Truman had set it up when he was president
because of the UFOs and all the stuff in the 40's and the early
50's. And they thought we might be attacked.

LMH: By extra terrestrials?

GP: Right. And, that, in that situation, somebody, some group
of people had to have control of the military, and control of
things of that nature in the United States that wouldn't have
to get Congress' approval or anything to do anything about it.
So, they elected 12 guys. And, it was set up, and, I guess they
were

LMH: Created by an executive order of Truman

GP: Yeah, and, uh, this is what the guy said. And, then he said
that they re-elect from their own. If one dies, the other 11
elect another one to take his place. But, they don't answer to
the President. They don't answer to Congress. They have their own
budget. And, they were laughing about that. "Yeah, we got our
own budget! It's a really deep budget!" and kind of laughed
about it.

LMH: Did Otto Kraus or the MJ-12 person say anything about the
crash at Aztec?

GP: Oh, yeah, sure. We talked about it. And, he laughed and
that's when he told us about Roswell. He said, "Well, that's not
the first one we got. The first ones we got Actually, the first
ones we got was from the Ozarks!"

LMH: Cape Jorodoh in Missouri?

GP: Huh?

LMH: Cape Jerod

GP: He didn't say where it was. He just said the Ozarks in the
early 40's. And, then I heard you guys mention it the other
night. I'm going, "that's what the hell he was talkin' about!"

AB: Huh!

LMH: Right. Cape Jerodoh in Missouri in 1941?

GP: Yeah. Where ever that is I don't even know.

LMH: Well, what did Otto Kraus and the MJ-12 person say about
that Missouri craft and the others?

GP: Well, they evidently got something that was very
enlightening to the whole, to the war, and everything else out
of the Majoris situation. Now, they didn't tell me what was in
what they got or what it was all about. In fact, so Otto said,
that the UFO wasn't classified. The only part of the UFO that
was classified was the power source of it. And, it was magnetic
and it generated magnetic energy, and that was the part that was
classified. And, it was more highly classified than the A-Bomb.

And they never would talk about that. And, I asked em a couple
of questions. I said, "Well, how do they fly this thing? You
know, how do they fly it if it's magnetic? How do they make it
go?"

He says, "Well.."

I said, "All right." I asked him, "how do go east to west?" You
know [laughs with embarrassment] with my simple knowledge back
then, you know the magnetic lines I knew run north and south. I
couldn't understand how they could go east to west.

And he goes, "Well, in simple terms," he said, "it's like what
happens if you take a magnet and you reverse it and try and push
it together."

I said, "It slips sideways?"

He said, "It's the same principle."

LMH: Hmm!

AB: Hmm!

GP: And, uh He said that they had, uh You know, somethin' else
he said that, uh, it ring a bell to me when I heard Lazar talking
the other night. He was talkin' about some substance that
powered this craft that was in the collector or in the, uh, in
the power source, or whatever, and it was a number

LMH: Element 115.

GP: That's it! What is it?

LMH: Element 115.

GP: Right. They referred to that element. And, Otto said, "We
don't have the ability to make that at this point." And, uh, he
said, they were talking between em. And, I was just, we were
playing cards, and I was just listening. It didn't mean nothin'
to me. It was just stuff that's over my head. But, I remembered
that number. But, he said, "Down the road, we'll be able to do
it, but not right now."

But, they were talkin' about using some of the UFOs that they
had got to spy on Russia. And, I said, "What are you talking
about. I thought we were spying on Russia with the U2?"

And, they both laughed, and said, "That's what Russia thinks!"

LMH: Well, what did Otto Kraus and the MJ-12 person say
specifically about what they knew about the origin of the craft
and the beings that were living

GP: They said that it come from a Mothership.

LMH: And the implication to you was what?

GP: That this craft could not go interplanetary. It had to
travel where there was a magnetic energy source, and therefore
it could not travel from planet to planet or galaxy to galaxy
because it had to have a certain magnetic field or somethin' to
operate with.

LMH: Now, what do you specifically know about extraterrestrial
beings at the test site, working perhaps with us.

GP: I know what the guy said on the show that was working out
there. And, I know that the live aliens that we got from the
Roswell area it wasn't right in the Roswell thing, but one of
those crashes that they had taken them to Wright-Patterson Air
Force Base after that. Then, after Area 51 was developed, they
took em there, him, them to Area 51. And they had him out there.
Otto had not seen the alien but the other guy had. And, he said,
"We've learned to communicate with it and are working in an
exchange of technology. Not, uh, interfering with them. And,
letting him contact his people and letting him go and come from
Area 51. That's why they've wanted control of Area 51 for so
long, where there was no public land left. Where, anyone who
could see into Area 51 left. That's why they fought for Area 51
so hard, I'm sure, from talking to Glenn Campbell. He tried to
save that Freedom Ridge which he didn't succeed, but uh

LMH: The MJ-12 guy, did he talk about the specific description
of the alien types that we were working with in the exchange of
information and technology with?

GP: The alien types?

LMH: Physical description?

GP: Generally. You know, what, uh, everybody's depicted about
em. You know, they're somewhat in the neighborhood of about 4
foot high. Their arms are longer than ours are in proportion
than ours are. You know, and that the skin is more of, uh, he
didn't call it gray, but he called it a pale' color.

LMH: And the eyes?

GP: And, they had the bigger eyes and that type stuff.

LMH: Uh, did he

GP: Little nose. And not any, you know, the ears were more, uh,
they didn't stick out like ours. They were like little holes on
the sides of their heads.

LMH: Anything about the number of fingers on their hands? Or
their toes?

GP: No we didn't talk about that.

LMH: Did you ever see a photograph of these beings?

GP: Unh-uh. [no]

LMH: Did you ever see an actual craft?

GP: I've seen the craft. Yeah.

LMH: And, you saw the craft in the air?

GP: Uh, yeah.

LMH: Did you ever see any craft on the ground or up close?

GP: No. Because, at the time we went to Area 51 or those areas,
they took us in vans with no windows. And, uh, when you got
there, you were inside a buildin' and you got out and you went
in and you did what the hell you went there for. And, they put
you back in and you left like that.

LMH: Um-hmm

AB: Hmm

LMH: And did

GP: That's the way I saw em was through the binoculars from
that area that I could observe that area.

LMH: And were they coming from the underground up when they
flew?

GP: No. They was just out on the they were out on the ground
and, uh, they would maneuver em.

LMH: Would they just rise straight up from the ground?

GP: Well, they can. They can be out of sight in about 3
seconds, goin' straight up.

LMH: And was it your impression that what was flying them in
the inside was extraterrestrial?

GP: I didn't know!

[Linda stops the tape ]

AB: [laughs] What an interview!

LMH: Yeah. It's amazing. Very few people knew anything about a
1941 disk retrieval in the Ozarks. And in the newly released
documents that we've talked about with Bob and Ryan Wood, in
what is called The MJ-12 White Hot Intelligence Assessment,
dated September 19, 1947, it says, "based upon all available
evidence collected from recovered exhibits currently under
study" and it named approximately ten or twelve organizations
studying the craft, "these are deemed extraterrestrial in
nature. This conclusion was reached as a results as a result of
comparison of artifacts from the Missouri discovery in 1941. The
technology is outside the scope of the United States' science,
even German aircraft and rocket development. " And, on the next
page, it says, "Even the recovery case of 1941 did not create a
unified intelligence effort to exploit possible technological
gains with the exception of the Manhattan project. " which was
the project to develop the atomic bomb. "We now have an
opportunity to extend our technology beyond the threshold that
we have achieved. Aside from technological change, we face an
even greater challenge, that of learning the intent of such a
presence. There are questions that remain unanswered, such as,
what forces face us, what kind of defense do we have, where do
they come from and what kind of weapons do they posses?"

And, that is 1947 questions and thinking based on the 1941
craft that they were comparing to several vehicles retrieved from
New Mexico from 1947 on. And, I think, here, for the first
time, is a man who was there in the Aztec farming scenaria when
all of those craft flew over and knew from a newspaper that his
own parents read to him that there was a crash retrieval by
military forces in that area in 1952 and someone has worked very
hard to keep everyone from knowing that the Aztec crash is real.

AB: Alright. Linda, we're woefully out of time. Remarkable
report! I want more people to come forward! You do.

LMH: Yes.

AB: How do they contact you?

LMH: Yes. My fax number is area code 215-491-9842. And, if
Rufus Lang Baughn the third is listening or anyone else who knows
him, please contact me at my fax number because this is another
corroborator and Glenn Pace would very much like to talk to him
again.

AB: Alright. I think we're closing in on it! Linda - thank you!
And, we will talk to you, if not before next Sunday, next Sunday.

LMH: Okay!

AB: Thank you and good night!

[end of transcript]




  Rowland Net Art Bell Talk Reading Room Transcripts Linda Howe
/ Gary Pace on Dec 20, 1998


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                     Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias

From: Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate <devilsad@ksinc.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:00:27 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 04:52:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias


After following a few of the various discussions re abductions
recently on this list (especially ones focusing heavily on
social factors), thought the following might be of interest.

Source: The Devil's Advocate

www.devilsadvocate.base.org

(originally appeared in the print zine).

"Abductions and Researcher Bias" or

"Why Does every Abduction Researcher always find his own
Favorite Breed of Alien?"

by
Martin Kottmeyer

Excerpted from The Devil's Advocate #6

You have just surveyed a little over a dozen abduction
investigators who have collectively handled over 1700 cases. You
learn 4 of them say they have a generally favorable attitude
about the nature of abduction experiences; 3 of them say such
experiences are generally negative. You say to yourself this is
a nice opportunity to test whether or not there is an
investigator effect shaping the experiences of those they work
with.

You meticulously compile and collate the survey data. Finally
you get the following results:

Abductees with positive-attitude investigators more often feel
positive about their abduction experiences. Their reactions to
the entities are more often positive. The entities are perceived
more often as warm and cordial. More often one of the entities
seems familiar or caring. The abductees more often see
themselves as partners in the experience. They more often may
even identify themselves as alien. On the downside they more
often have vague anxieties after their experiences.

Abductees with negative-attitude investigators, on the other
had, more often feel negative about their experiences. They hate
and dislike the beings more often. The beings themselves are
more often perceived as cold and business-like. The abductees
see themselves more often as victims.

Do you conclude A) Clearly it makes a difference which
investigator an abductee goes to and it would be prudent to
recommend that anyone wanting to explore an abduction experience
seek a positively-opinionated investigator; or B) Despite many
claims and fears to the contrary, the investigators' hand proves
almost invisible, its touch nearly negligible in formulating the
abduction.

Though you have now resolved the pragmatic issue to everyone's
satisfaction, your work is not yet done. You also want to know
if these attitudes influence the imagery and plot of abduction
stories. You look down the data columns and what you read goes
something like this:

Positive attitude investigators have a lower percentage of
humanoids and standard Grays and a higher percentage of
human-like Nordics in their files. Their cases are less likely
to involve missing time and the experiences are shorter in
duration. Unexpectedly, examination experiences are more common,
but they are less likely to involve implants, manual handling,
and the genitals. The aliens less often give threats or orders
to forget. More often they give tours of the ship and school the
abductee. Like the Space Brothers of the contactees they warn
about future catastrophes and cataclysms more often. Their
abductees are more likely to show increased psychic abilities.
There are some puzzles. Their abductions more often involve
paralysis. The crafts are more often disc-like. The interiors
are more often cool and indirectly lit.

Negative attitude investigators, in contrast, have higher
percentages of humanoids, and standard Grays. Curiously, the
trait of vestigial noses is more common. The examinations more
often involve implants, manual handling, and the genitals are
less likely to involve sample-taking. In line with the Hopkins
scenario, there are more scenes involving nurseries and hybrids.
Their abductees are less likely to be given tours of the ship.
They are more often threatened and ordered to forget. There are
fewer warnings about future catastrophes. They more often have
body scars and marks. There is less about increased psychic
abilities or changes in habits following the experiences. There
are also some puzzles. There are more otherworldly journeys.
There are more messages of reassurance. There is less anxiety
during their capture, less paralysis. Their experiences are
longer. The crafts are less likely to be disc-shaped. The rooms
are more likely to be rectangular or wedge-shaped and less often
indirectly lit. Finally, their abductees are less likely to
suffer nausea or diarrhea after an experience.

Do you conclude A) The results make more sense than not. Those
details that don't make sense seem less central to the drama of
the story and might be resolvable by further study; or B) The
meaning of any relationship between attitude and description
escapes ready comprehension.

You have likely already guessed that this study is not
hypothetical. It was part of a much larger study conducted by
Thomas E. Bullard and recently published by the Fund for UFO
Research under the title The Sympathetic Ear: Investigators as
Variables in UFO Abduction Reports. The results reported here
are my reading of data columns P and N of his Table 37. If you
picked A for your conclusions, your assessment matches mine. If
you picked B, you conclusions match the author of the study.
They are quotes respectively from the summary after the title
page and from page 89. I singled out that part of the study,
most of which is excellent by the way, as the most relevant test
of Philip Klass's observation that Leo Sprinkle's abductees
report kinder, gentler aliens than Budd Hopkins. He felt it was
not coincidence that the personal beliefs of the investigators
seemed to color the experiences of their subjects. While Bullard
cites Klass's opinion as what is under test, he seems to forget
the specifics of what Klass says as the argument goes along and
ends up fighting against some exaggerated position that no
skeptic I know of ever advanced. Bullard's data replicates what
Klass says and the central pragmatic issue of whether it is
advisable to point abductees to positively-minded investigators
is demonstrated as prudently correct.

Why does Bullard offer the conclusions in the B quotes? It
appears to be that he regards the puzzles in the data as so
paramount that they vitiate any claim for a real investigator
effect. Some details are completely unaffected by the attitude
of the investigator. Though fair enough as a question of what is
involved in a full portrait of the abduction phenomenon, the
fact remains that the data does not contradict the specific
claims that have been made by the critics he cites.

It would be interesting to know how many readers of this study
accept Bullard's conclusion without looking at the table of
results. The main reason I bothered to double-check things was
because the two lines I quoted seemed too unlikely. One can't
read the UFO abduction literature without seeing the hand of the
investigator is all too visible. Some examples:

# Christie totally accepts the idea of Space Brothers and has
participated in workshops were she chats with beautiful space
beings. She attends a meeting between her boyfriend and Budd
Hopkins and is eventually regressed, yielding an experience
involving needles in her nose and vagina. Hopkins concludes that
her change of mind proves the Space Brothers are a myth and that
abductions are traumatically real (Int'l UFO Reporter, Jan/Feb.
1987);

# John Mack repeatedly asks abductees why hybrids, if they are
to repopulate a post-holocaust earth, seem so listless and wan.
Next we learn Jerry has an abduction where the hybrid is seen as
beautiful, angelic, young adults. Peter proclaims they do not
appear listless to him, but have a vitality all their own.
(Abduction, p. 415);

# David Jacobs finds aliens that are totally non-human and avers
that contactee claims are a convenient touchstone for deciding
which reports are probably bogus. (Secret Life, pp. 236, 284.)
Richard Boylan's subjects gets a variety suggestive of at least
a dozen races and they often share human characteristics like a
reverence for life and the importance of caring for children. A
chapter devoted to messages from these experiences is filled
with material identical to that of the contactees of the Fifties
right down to an advocacy of vegetarianism. (Close
Extraterrestrial Encounters, chapter 14, 15.)

Each would doubtless insist their methods are superior, their
results more believable, than the prior views. Doubtless, too,
their subjects agree. Somebody's wrong here. I would not be
shocked if everybody's wrong here. Since ufologists are to some
extent getting what they believe, be careful which views you
side with. I wonder if we could convince Camille Paglia to take
up ufology. I'd love to see what sort of aliens she'd find.




1-3-'97



)+(
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."
)+(






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   Dec > Dec 20

                     Re: Filer's Files #50 [Abductions]

From: Beverly Trout <btufo@netins.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:47:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 13:10:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #50 [Abductions]

>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:05:32 -0500
>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Filer's Files #50-1998

John Thompson writes -

>While I know the inner-terrestrial (INT) threat will turn many folks'
>stomach, how can you ignore it?  I believe 99.9 percent of this
>abduction madness is not of extraterrestrial origin.  When there is
>NEVER any physical evidence of substance, how can you not
>consider mental projections or hologramic-like images being
>projected into the victims' minds?

And...

>....it is a captive mental process that our religious leaders should
>be researching and warning our country of.

And....

>The dumbing down of our species certainly cannot be ruled out as
>we are a growing threat to the INTs.

And...
>Conditioning human minds to their program or way of thinking is
>also rational.  "The devil made me do it" probably has real basis.
>The devil and his clan is just another form of aliens; inner-terres-
>trial aliens.

Speaking as a lifelong abductee (I've had conscious encounters
as well as some memories recovered under very light hypnosis - a
psychiatrist conducted those sessions) I possess my own share of
frustration about the phenomenon.  And yes, it would seem that
the aliens (from wherever they come) are quite capable of mental
projections and/or hologramic-like images - as Mr. Thompson
suggests.  However, I've also noted that when my visual
perception is presented with a false image, my mind throws up
perception-clues as if to needle me into realizing that what I
think I'm perceiving is, in fact, askew...has been altered in
some way, and that I'd better re-assess the image if I want to
get closer to the truth.  (In all honesty, I've also had to
recognize that sometimes it is MYSELF who may be the culprit in
the alteration process, since I may not want to directly face
what's in my presence - so I can't place the blame on alien
shoulders for everything.)

As Iowa's MUFON State Director, I have researched some other
cases, as well as my own.  As anyone who has heard me speak will
quickly note, I am not necessarily "politically correct" in the
UFO camp.  I am neither in the angel-space brother camp NOR in
the devil-demon camp.  Where I do come down is that there is
MASSIVE MANIPULATION involved in alien-human interaction, where
I as a human basically find everything beyond my control. And
I've never been able to convince myself that the Universe likes
manipulation.  (And I find it somewhat easy to believe that
those who believe they can stop an abduction may actually only
be deluding themselves into believing they have done so....the
aliens are very adept at allowing us to believe what we WANT to
believe.)

Mr. Thompson's suggestion that the aliens may be perpetrating a
"dumbing down" process on humans may have merit, but ONLY if
humans are foolish enough to deify/worship OR demonize the
aliens as a response to alien-human interaction.  Let's face it.
Humans love to look at aliens for what they WANT them to be,
rather than what they are!  And if the aliens have been
conditioning me since the 1930s, it must have turned out wrong.
Why?  Because I'm a vociferous critic of alien manipulation.  On
the other hand, I'm also a vociferous critic of our human
ENABLING of the alien domination.

The problem I'm pointing to does NOT belong in the province of
organized religion.  Frankly, I don't think there's enough
understanding on the part of organized religion (generally
speaking, that is - there are a few exceptions) of our origins,
i.e. research into Sumerian records, etc.....to enable organized
religion to advise abductees and other humans how to react to
the alien presence (from wherever that presence comes).

The aliens have a job to do.  THEY HAVE AN AGENDA.  My
perception is that they rationalize their various activities -
what they do, how they interact with us - just as we humans
rationalize our own manipulative interactions with other humans,
and with what we label as animal life on this planet.  So, for
me, the aliens mode of operation is NOT all that different from
the human tendency to operate from a base logic of THE END
JUSTIFIES THE MEANS. (I am excusing no one - not the aliens, and
not the humans!)

What is needed is for humans to turn and face their own fear -
and to do that, we need to think for ourselves...instead of
turning our psychological welfare over to an organized religious
structure, or for that matter, indulging in running to anyone
else for solution to our alien-human interaction problems.  Even
those of us who benefit from the kinship to be found in support
groups had better understand that elimination of the
manipulation factor in alien-human interaction actually calls
for humans to forsake the "dependency" of allowing others
(whether alien or human) to think for us.

Bev Trout





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   Dec > Dec 20

                                     Re:

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 10:04:53 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:19:50 -0500
Subject: Re:


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:24:40 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

>>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:09:34 -0500
>>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo
>>Sender: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>Good afternoon, James  -

>>Given that Marcel reportedly claimed the debris he was
>>photographed with came from the 'flying saucer' and that it's
>>obvious the same type of material is shown in all three
>>photographs - i.e., there was no 'switch' - what is the basis
>>for disputing Marcel's testimony? [End]

>Remember that Moore offered three different versions of the
>quotes attributed to Marcel, first in his book, then when he
>sent out his notes, and finally in his magazine, FOCUS.

>Second, Johnny Mann, when he was in Roswell with Jesse Marcel,
>Sr. showed Marcel the pictures in THE ROSWELL INCIDENT. Mann
>says that Marcel told him those pictures had been staged. As far
>as I know, that is the only time that Marcel referred to those
>pictures. He did tell Friedman, in his video, that he was in
>pictures with the real debris, but those pictures were not taken
>in Fort Worth and were not taken by J. Bond Johnson regardless
>of what he says.

>DuBose has told us, on video tape, that the material that was
>photographed in Ramey's office was not the stuff found in
>Roswell.

>It is clear that what was photographed was nothing more than a
>weather balloon and rawin target.


Absolutely right, Kevin.  Trying to make that junk in Bond's
photos anything other than weather balloon debris is an exercise
in futility.

However, if the telegram can be read, then that might be worth
something.

Stan sent me a copy of the CD with the images on December 4 via
Special Delivery, so I could pass it on to a real photo
interpretation expert.

Unfortunately, it has never arrived.

Bob






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   Dec > Dec 20

                Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 10:12:21 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:22:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'


>Source: http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/a1998/dec/ray.htm

>Ray Santilli Claims FOX Report on Alien Autopsy is
>Completely Wrong

>>From Ed Gehrman


Ed,

I think that in this particular case Ray Santilli is telling the
complete and honest truth.  He did tell me many times, in
e-mails, on the phone, and face to face, that the 'Tent Footage'
should be discounted and was not part of the AA film.  He based
this on the cameraman's reaction when the footage was shown to
him.  The cameraman said he did not recognize it, and was sure
he had never shot this footage.

Bob Kiviat wants to get back at Ray for perceived slights and is
using this opportunity to do so.  He is not seeking the truth,
nor being a responsable journalist.

This does not mean that I accept the rest of the AA film as
genuine.  I do not.  Theresa Carlson has raised some very
troubling points about the film which seem to imply that it is a
special effects creation.

I think this case file must remain open.

Bob Shell





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   Dec > Dec 20

                          BWW Media Alert 19981220

From: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 10:44:13 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:23:27 -0500
Subject: BWW Media Alert 19981220

Bufo Calvin<BR>
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA  94596<BR>
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com<BR>
Website: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufo
calvin<;/a><BR>
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld"> Link
to Amazon.com</a><BR>
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edi
tion of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made to http://members.a
ol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with strangers before you e-mai
l them something.  If you forward this, please make sure it is clear that you ar
e forwarding it).

December 20, 1998

The big talk this week will be about the Fox special on Monday.  However, the
Discovery Channel is also running some nice programming...

On to the listings: Times are generally Pacific.


TELEVISION

A&E
Next Sunday, December 20, 6:00 PM, THE UNEXPLAINED: UFO CULTS

ABC

Next Thursday, December 31, 10:00 AM, THE VIEW: psychic Char

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL
Sunday, December 20, 1:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GOD BEAR OF KAMCHATKA
Sunday, December 20, 1:30 PM, STRANGE BUT TRUE: POLTERGEISTS AND MIND OVER
PAIN
Saturday, December 26, 1:00 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: UFOs
Saturday, December 26, 2:00 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE:
MYSTERIES OF THE NORTH
Saturday, December 26, 2:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: DOOM
OF THE DINOSAURS
Next Sunday, December 27, 12:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE:
UFOs
Next Sunday, December 27, 1:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: BEAST OF THE MOORS (the
Beast of Bodmin, an out-of-place big cat in the UK)
Next Sunday, December 27, 1:30 PM, STRANGE BUT TRUE: NEAR DEATHS AND EXORCISM
Next Thursday, December 31, 7:00 PM, UFO: DOWN TO EARTH: GREAT BALLS OF LIGHT
Next Thursday, December 31, 8:00 PM, INSIDE AREA 51
Next Thursday, December 31, 9:00 PM, UFOS OVER PHOENIX
Next Thursday, December 31, 11:00 PM, UFOS: DOWN TO EARTH: UNCOVERING THE
EVIDENCE
Next Friday, January 1, 12:00 AM, BEYOND BIZARRE: UFOS AND ALIEN IMPLANTS
Next Friday, January 1, 1:00 AM, OZ ENCOUNTERS: UFOS IN AUSTRALIA (I'd
recommend this one: nice, first person kind of stuff)
Next Friday, January 1, 2:00 AM, UFOS: DOWN TO EARTH: REASON TO BELIEVE

FOX
Monday, December 28, 8:00 PM, WORLD'S GREATEST HOAXES: SECRETS FINALLY
REVEALED (This one has gotten a great deal of press in the paranormal
"community".  Bob Kiviat, the producer who brought us the Fox ALIEN AUTOPSY
special ((among other things)) is doing a debunking turn.  They will present
someone who claims to be an actor in the Alien Autopsy film, etc.  I've noted
in the past that much greater mainstream press is sometimes generated by
claims of a hoax than by claims of a paranormal event...a classic being the
crop circle "confessions" of Doug and Dave.  It made the front page in papers
where crop circles had never gotten  close.  What I am guessing they will use
about Nessie was also front page news, despite some elements that cast the
confession in doubt.  The philosophical Skeptics ((what I call "true
disbelievers")) rarely put claims of hoaxing to as stringent a test as they do
claims of events.  A true sceptic would, of course, treat both equally.  I
suspect that they have one really strong debunking on the show, accompanied by
some that are less impressive.  Should be an interesting show, hosted by Lance
Henriksen).

THE HISTORY CHANNEL
Sunday, December 20, 2:00 PM: THE MYSTERIES OF AMELIA EARHART (alien abduction
is suggested, among others)
Monday, December 21, 1:00 AM: THE MYSTERIES OF AMELIA EARHART (alien abduction
is suggested, among others)

THE LEARNING CHANNEL

MTV
Friday, December 25, 3:00 PM, ROAD RULES: UFO stories
Friday, December 25, 5:00 PM, ROAD RULES: haunted hotel

PBS

THE SCIENCE CHANNEL
The new schedule is weird programming for an hour each at 6:00 AM, 2:00 PM,and
10:00 PM. Rotating shows include: INTO THE UNKNOWN, STRANGE BUT TRUE, and
ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE.

THE SCI-FI CHANNEL
Sunday, December 20, 7:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #5069: psychic detective;
Atlantis; alchemy; mansion haunting; ley lines
Sunday, December 20, 11:00 PM SIGHTINGS EPISODE #5069: psychic detective;
Atlantis; alchemy; mansion haunting; ley lines
Tuesday, December 22, 4:00 PM, SIGHTINGS: #209: EPIDEMIC OF EVIL (Satanism:
commentators include the Rev. Jerry Falwell)
Tuesday, December 22, 8:00 PM, SIGHTINGS: #209: EPIDEMIC OF EVIL (Satanism:
commentators include the Rev. Jerry Falwell)
Wednesday, December 23, 6:00 PM, SIGHTINGS: Special #5: FIRE IN THE BRAIN:
UNLEASHING THE HIDDEN POWERS OF THE MIND
Wednesday, December 23, 10:00 PM, SIGHTINGS: Special #5: FIRE IN THE BRAIN:
UNLEASHING THE HIDDEN POWERS OF THE MIND
Next Sunday, December 27, 7:00 PM, SIGHTINGS #3003 (Area 51, ice circles,
psychic detective, alien abductees)
Next Sunday, December 27, 11:00 PM, SIGHTINGS #3003 (Area 51, ice circles,
psychic detective, alien abductees)

SYNDICATED
Tuesday, December 22, MAURY: psychic John Edwards

___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly
redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by
e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com.  You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to
Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if
there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t
he week before.





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   Dec > Dec 20

              Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 11:33:18 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:26:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo



>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:24:40 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

>>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:09:34 -0500
>>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo
>>Sender: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Given that Marcel reportedly claimed the debris he was
>>photographed with came from the 'flying saucer' and that it's
>>obvious the same type of material is shown in all three
>>photographs - i.e., there was no 'switch' - what is the basis
>>for disputing Marcel's testimony? [End]

>Remember that Moore offered three different versions of the
>quotes attributed to Marcel, first in his book, then when he
>sent out his notes, and finally in his magazine, FOCUS.

>Second, Johnny Mann, when he was in Roswell with Jesse Marcel,
>Sr. showed Marcel the pictures in THE ROSWELL INCIDENT. Mann
>says that Marcel told him those pictures had been staged.

There is NO dispute that the pictures taken of Major Marcel were
staged. I staged them. It has been published repeatedly that I
helped to unpack the "flying saucer" crash debris that Marcel
couriered from Roswell to Fort Worth on orders of General Ramey.
Then I "posed" -- arranged, displayed -- the junk in an attempt
to make a meaningful photo record and then took the six famous
pictures of Major Marcel, General Ramey and Colonel Dubose
examining the debris. There is NO issue here.

>As far as I know, that is the only time that Marcel referred to those
>pictures. He did tell Friedman, in his video, that he was in
>pictures with the real debris, but those pictures were not taken
>in Fort Worth and were not taken by J. Bond Johnson regardless
>of what he says.

Where is there ANY evidence that Marcel said that there was any
OTHER photo session? I have not seen ANY such account. He
certainly didn't reveal any such to his family and any other
pictures certainly are invisible.       The pictures I took are
VERY visible -- and as a result of the ongoing "Roswell
Revisitation" RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team) project
they are revealing VERY interesting multiple symbols and
anomalous objects which NO ONE yet has identified as being of
terrestrial origin. Yet KRandle CONTINUES to try to confuse the
record re Roswell.

>DuBose has told us, on video tape, that the material that was
>photographed in Ramey's office was not the stuff found in
>Roswell.

When General Dubose was interviewed on several occasions 40 plus
years later his memory obviously was dim. As a result he made
several conflicting statements, including that the debris
displayed in General Ramey's office WAS INDEED the debris Marcel
gathered up on a Roswell ranch and brought immediately to Fort
Worth for personal inspection by General Ramey and Dubose. I
certainly can be sympathetic to the memory problems suffered by
Dubose and all of us as Roswell witnesses.

>It is clear that what was photographed was nothing more than a
>weather balloon and rawin target.

And the world is flat.






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 20

                Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:48:24 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:30:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'


Dear List Members,

Ray Santilli has posted his response to a Fox-TV expose he
hasn't even seen yet!  It's in UFO UpDates - see:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/dec/m20-012.shtml

dated today Dec 20, 1998.  The Fox special airs on Dec 28.
That's 8 days in the FUTURE.

Santilli's response is completely irrelevant and a red herring
because while he dwells on a tiny issue of analysis of a "tent"
film clip (versus the long Alien Autopsy video itself), he
completely evades the fact announced by Fox that it will
reportedly air the CONFESSION from one of the Alien Autopsy
hoaxers!

Brad Sparks





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   Dec > Dec 20

                     Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 11:14:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:34:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias


>From: Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Abductions and Researcher Bias
>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:00:27 -0600

>After following a few of the various discussions re abductions
>recently on this list (especially ones focusing heavily on
>social factors), thought the following might be of interest.

>Source: The Devil's Advocate

>www.devilsadvocate.base.org

>(originally appeared in the print zine).

>"Abductions and Researcher Bias" or

>"Why Does every Abduction Researcher always find his own
>Favorite Breed of Alien?"

>by
>Martin Kottmeyer

The subtitle is a sad exaggeration. I've seen abductees who work
with Budd Hopkins form every possible view of the abduction
phenomenon. Quite a few are willing to entertain friendly
thoughts about their abductors, even though Budd doesn't think
that way.

Kottmeyer's piece -- based on solid research by Eddie Bullard --
is far more grounded than other comments on this issue. Philip
Klass, for instance, likes to joke that abductees should always
go to Leo Sprinkle, not to Budd, because they'll find out that
their abductors are nice guys. As usual, when he talks or writes
about abductions, he has nothing but vague anecdotal data, and
really hasn't a clue what he's talking about.

Not Kottmeyer (though something else he's written -- his Magonia
piece about abduction scenarios coming from science fiction --
is truly loony).

>
>Abductees with positive-attitude investigators more often feel
>positive about their abduction experiences. Their reactions to
>the entities are more often positive. The entities are perceived
>more often as warm and cordial. More often one of the entities
>seems familiar or caring. The abductees more often see
>themselves as partners in the experience. They more often may
>even identify themselves as alien. On the downside they more
>often have vague anxieties after their experiences.

>Abductees with negative-attitude investigators, on the other
>had, more often feel negative about their experiences. They hate
>and dislike the beings more often. The beings themselves are
>more often perceived as cold and business-like. The abductees
>see themselves more often as victims.

>Do you conclude A) Clearly it makes a difference which
>investigator an abductee goes to and it would be prudent to
>recommend that anyone wanting to explore an abduction experience
>seek a positively-opinionated investigator; or B) Despite many
>claims and fears to the contrary, the investigators' hand proves
>almost invisible, its touch nearly negligible in formulating the
>abduction.

As I've said, I've seen a fair number of Budd Hopkins's
abductees entertain positive views of the aliens, and even come
to positive conclusions. One conclusion I come to is that
abductees, on their own, form many views of the phenomenon. If
the abduction investigator they work with shares their views,
they're more likely to stay with him or her. To some extent, of
course, investigators do affect their abductees' views; that
would only be natural. But there's another factor at work, too,
and that's how abductees pick the investigator they want to work
with.

Anyone who felt he or she was being visited by angelic beings
wouldn't be very drawn to Budd after reading his books or seeing
him on TV. Nor would anyone who had really painful experiences,
and was interested in an objective, scientific view of the
phenomenon -- and please don't underestimate the number of
abductees who feel this way! -- go running to John Mack. I've
mentioned here before that abductees are often described as if
they were much more passive than they are. They make choices,
and form their own views.

The full picture, at least as I've seen it, is far more complex
than anything Kottmeyer describes. For instance, anyone who
visits Budd's support groups will, I think, agree with me that
he doesn't strongly enforce any view of the aliens and their
motives, though clearly he has one and doesn't hide it. The
discussions normally avoid that subject, though, and concentrate
on more mundane matters, like how someone who feels he or she
has been abducted can deal with everyday life. There's another
abduction group in New York with a very positive view. Some
people -- including the leader of that other group -- have been
known to attend both meetings.

The question, then, of who Budd's abductees are and what their
relationship is to him is much more fluid than you'd guess from
most discussions of it. I don't know what it's like in groups
that John Mack or Leo Sprinkle run. But if Mack or Sprinkle talk
a lot about their positive view of the aliens -- and if that's
echoed by many people in their groups -- then abductees who feel
otherwise won't keep coming. This isn't investigator influence.
It's abductee choice.

>Bullard's data replicates what
>Klass says and the central pragmatic issue of whether it is
>advisable to point abductees to positively-minded investigators
>is demonstrated as prudently correct.

This is precisely the "abductees are passive" view that I wish
people wouldn't adopt. What a silly picture. Poor little
abductees, thinking they may have been taken by aliens, should
seek out an investigator with positive views of the aliens --
because it's the investigator's view that the abductee is going
to adopt. As if abductees didn't have minds of their own!

As I've said, I think abductees choose to contact an
investigator -- and then stay with him or her -- in part because
they share the investigator's views in the first place. I've
often heard abductees say that they were very wary when they
came to Budd, because they were afraid he was going to influence
their thinking. Some people might be more easily led than
others, and will be drawn into an investigator's camp. As I
said, that's only natural. But Kottmeyer doesn't even seem to
consider the possibility that some abductees do their own
thinking.

Greg Sandow





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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 20

                     Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 98 12:56:24 PST
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:39:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias


>From: Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Abductions and Researcher Bias
>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:00:27 -0600

>After following a few of the various discussions re abductions
>recently on this list (especially ones focusing heavily on
>social factors), thought the following might be of interest.

>Source: The Devil's Advocate

>www.devilsadvocate.base.org

>(originally appeared in the print zine).

>"Abductions and Researcher Bias" or

>"Why Does every Abduction Researcher always find his own
>Favorite Breed of Alien?"

>by
>Martin Kottmeyer

It is perhaps wise to remember that Kottmeyer has also argued --
in an article in The Anomalist -- that the 1952 wave was
occasioned by mass anxiety about a steel strike. As I have
written elsewhere, as a UFO debunker Martin Kottmeyer knows a
lot about popular culture.

Every time I hear that "every abduction researcher always finds
his own favorite breed of alien" -- something I know not to be
true from my own abduction researches in the 1970s, but never
mind -- I think of an episode I witnessed around (if memory
serves) 1974 -- long, of course, before Hopkins, Jacobs, Mack,
and the abduction flood that began in the early 1980s.

A couple whom I knew slightly had an extraordinarily strange UFO
experience, lasting over several hours, while traveling through
Utah. In the course of my interviews with them, I found odd gaps
in the narrative, and I began to wonder if hypnotic probing
might not be usefully employed. But I didn't know anybody who
could do the hypnotizing. I asked a psychology professor at a
local college if he had any candidates, and he told me he knew a
psychiatrist who used hypnosis in his practice.  He would
approach X and ask him if he would hypnotize the couple as a
courtesy to a colleague.

When informed what the hypnosis was about (a couple who had
undergone a UFO experience), X was flabbergasted. He made no
secret of his strong conviction that this was as nonsensical as
anything one could imagine.  Still, the professor prevailed upon
him to do it as a personal favor.

The psychologist and I thought it would be a good idea if, after
the sessions, the couple were given the suggestion that they
would not remember what they had said under hypnosis. Our
reasoning was that this would keep them from contaminating each
other's testimony until we learned what, if anything, might be
there.  X (with whom I had no direct dealings) insisted that
nobody be there during the hypnosis except himself and, of
course, the couple.

After the sessions tapes were given to the psychology professor,
who told me that X had been visibly upset.  X said he had fallen
into something he wanted no further part of, because he did not
understand it, he did not know about it, and he feared the
consequences for the couple.  Shocked, the professor and I
listened to the tapes together.  They related the sort of
abduction experience, complete with little gray humanoids of the
kind we would all hear about in the following decade, with which
we are all now familiar.  Their stories, related separately,
complemented each other.

I went to talk with the couple.  They, too, were upset.  All
they knew was that after the hypnosis sessions, of whose content
they had no recall, X had fled out the door as soon as possible.
He'd told them only, "I don't want to ruin your lives."

Nobody, in short, looking for favorite aliens or even knowing
what "favorite aliens" are.  The only thing being looked for was
validation of X's conviction that UFOs were nonsense -- an
expectation disappointed.

Jerry Clark





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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 20

              Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 10:04:53 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 15:16:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:24:40 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

>>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:09:34 -0500
>>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo
>>Sender: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>Good afternoon, James  -

>>Given that Marcel reportedly claimed the debris he was
>>photographed with came from the 'flying saucer' and that it's
>>obvious the same type of material is shown in all three
>>photographs - i.e., there was no 'switch' - what is the basis
>>for disputing Marcel's testimony? [End]

>Remember that Moore offered three different versions of the
>quotes attributed to Marcel, first in his book, then when he
>sent out his notes, and finally in his magazine, FOCUS.

>Second, Johnny Mann, when he was in Roswell with Jesse Marcel,
>Sr. showed Marcel the pictures in THE ROSWELL INCIDENT. Mann
>says that Marcel told him those pictures had been staged. As far
>as I know, that is the only time that Marcel referred to those
>pictures. He did tell Friedman, in his video, that he was in
>pictures with the real debris, but those pictures were not taken
>in Fort Worth and were not taken by J. Bond Johnson regardless
>of what he says.

>DuBose has told us, on video tape, that the material that was
>photographed in Ramey's office was not the stuff found in
>Roswell.

>It is clear that what was photographed was nothing more than a
>weather balloon and rawin target.


Absolutely right, Kevin.  Trying to make that junk in Bond's
photos anything other than weather balloon debris is an exercise
in futility.

However, if the telegram can be read, then that might be worth
something.

Stan sent me a copy of the CD with the images on December 4 via
Special Delivery, so I could pass it on to a real photo
interpretation expert.

Unfortunately, it has never arrived.

Bob






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   Dec > Dec 20

               'Strange Days... Indeed' - Tonight Jerome Clark

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 17:22:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 17:22:11 -0500
Subject: 'Strange Days... Indeed' - Tonight Jerome Clark





On 'Strange Days... Indeed' tonight we'll be talking with Jerome
Clark, who has been following the UFO controversy for four
decades, and is editor of International UFO Reporter, the magazine of
the J. Allan Hynek Centre for UFO Studies. He's an
internationally respected authority on the subject, has written
the award winning, three-volume UFO Encyclopedia (1990-1996), The
UFO Book and his latest 'Unexplained!'. Jerry joins us tonight
by phone from his home in Minnesota.

The program starts at 11:00pm EST on 1010 CFRB [AM - 50,000watts]
and you can listen via your Real Player at:

www.cfrb.com/cfrb.ram

To call the program 'live', dial:

On-Air    416-872-1010
          1-800-561-CFRB
          *TALK [local mobiles]





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   Dec > Dec 21

                       Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 13:31:03 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:21:07 -0500
Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:06:06 EST
>Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:00:58 -0500
>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:00:35 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:57:10 -0500
>>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting


<snip>

Dear List Members,

I have been a UFO researcher for more than 30 years and worked
with Bruce Maccabee in the early 70's through the 80's on
detailed scientific analysis and calculations on the McMinnville
photos, the Gemini 11 astronaut case, studies of government UFO
files, and other investigations.

I was one of the cofounders of CAUS in 1978, in fact I devised
the name and acronym "CAUS" (Citizens Against UFO Secrecy), and
I was the prime consultant in the first FOIA lawsuits against
the government to secure release of CIA and NSA documents on
UFO's -- although I had already obtained the release of many key
CIA documents several years earlier with efforts beginning in
1972.

From 1975 onward, I interviewed a hundred CIA Directors, Deputy
Directors, Assistant Directors and other intelligence officials
in the NSA, DIA, Air Force Intelligence, etc., about their UFO
investigations, and reviewed 100,000's of pages of declassified
government UFO documents. (The C. B. Moore report was one of the
first UFO cases to enter CIA files in 1949.)

I discovered the only genuine secret government document ever
found that even hints at an alleged Roswell coverup, the FBI
teletype of July 8, 1947, and gave it to Bill Moore and Stan
Friedman in 1979 for their Roswell Incident book (p. 133).

It is safe to say I am one of the world's leading experts on
alleged government UFO coverups.

In 1977 I circulated a detailed analysis of Donald Menzel's life
that was highly critical of his UFO publications and activities,
and which is referenced in Jerome Clark's comprehensive UFO
Encyclopedia (vol. 2, pp. 633-639).

In the same UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Edition (revised 1998), I
published an exhaustive investigation of the RB-47
radar-visual-electronic intelligence case of 1957, the
culmination of 26 years of research, which to my surprise
overturned and completely demolished Philip Klass' and Robert
Sheaffer's impressive explanations for the case.

My 30-page article establishes the RB-47 case as the first
scientific proof for the existence of UFO's, based on the
first-ever _real-time calibrated_ measurements of a microwave
radar beam from an airborne maneuvering UFO which was proven to
be accurate by the accurate detection and tracking of the radar
beam from a ground-based air-defense site _at the same time_ as
the UFO.

I am providing this background in order to establish that my
credentials as a long-time UFO investigator are secure and that
I am not a knee-jerk debunker, though I am a serious critical
thinker and find much of "UFOlogy" today to be based on a flimsy
house of cards and chimera.

Recently I announced on the Project 1947 and Current Encounters
Lists my new Meteor IFO Project, based on my long-time UFO
research experience and my training in astrophysics at Berkeley.

I would encourage people to send me all cases of suspected or
confirmed meteors for analysis and compilation into a database.
I will make periodic reports on my findings. My goal is to
develop Meteor IFO Profiles to help investigators weed out such
IFO's from UFO databases and to advance the sadly neglected area
of scientific meteor studies.

Back in 1979 I first realized that the Charles B. Moore case of
April 24, 1949, near Arrey, New Mexico, appeared to be that of
an escaping or tangential meteor, i.e., a meteor that skipped
back out into space instead of burning up in the earth's
atmosphere or crashing into the ground as a meteorite. Since
that time I've been compiling research data on similar such
cases.

Here are some answers to the recently posted objections to
explaining Moore's 1949 sighting as an escaping or tangential
meteor:

1. Approx. 60-second Duration: The Rocky Mountain Fireball of
Aug 10, 1972, was tracked by classified Air Force DSP
missile-warning satellites which proved for the first time in
history that a meteor had entered the earth's atmosphere then
bounced back into outer space. The DSP sensor data so far
declassified shows a tracking duration of 101.2 seconds, and a
number of ground observers were able to observe it nearly
horizon-to-horizon for upwards of 60 seconds. If the Arrey
meteor braked close to escape velocity it could extend these
durations perhaps by 20% or more.

2. No contrail or "meteor train." Most meteors do not leave a
"train" (the technical term in meteoritics for what we would
perhaps better term a "contrail").

2a. Seeming lack of other witnesses. This is a problem for a UFO
as it is for a meteor -- why wasn't the UFO seen by numerous
people? Perhaps the meteor/UFO WAS seen but we don't have the
reports because the reports are inaccessible in government files
or reports were never made at all (Stan Friedman's famous
overused dictum "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
applies here). In late April 1949 the corrosive Sidney Shallett
article in Saturday Evening Post had just come out which mocked
and ridiculed UFO witnesses and their reports, and several weeks
earlier Project SIGN had been transformed into the unfriendly
anti-UFO Project GRUDGE, hence witness reporting was officially
stigmatized and no doubt stymied.

3. Object's shape. The object could not possibly have had a
"well-defined shape" if as reported by Moore he was unable to
obtain a "hard or clear focus, and no good detail was
observable." The object was much too small to be seen with the
naked eye (0.02 degree is at the limit of resolution by the
human eye) so the only detail that could have been seen would
have had to have been observed through the theodolite. Such a
rapidly moving object would have been difficult to keep within
the extremely narrow field of view of the theodolite (FOV
roughly the same size as the object about 0.02 deg.), at 5
degrees/second this would mean a movement of about 250 fields of
view per second!

The object disappeared into the glare of the sun about midway
through the sighting and the course seemed to also change about
that time. Meteor fragmentation probably occurred at that point
which was not visible due to the sun (see next point for more
discussion on this). Small fragments could have broken off at
other points which would not have been visible to the naked eye
because of the small size, and not visible through the
theodolite because it was out of focus or because the main
object filled or dominated the small field of view thus blocking
the split-second view of any small fragments. If fragments flew
off at angular velocities comparable to the main body but in
differing directions, then even if a fragment could have been
seen across as much as half of the theodolite's field of view,
it would have been visible for only about 0.002 second (2
milliseconds), too brief to have been seen at all. The human
retina's refresh rate or "flicker speed" (as with movie camera
and television frame speeds) is about 20 to 30 milliseconds.
Nothing in sight for less than this interval can be seen unless
it emits a powerful enough flash of light as to register on the
retina despite the brevity, and small meteor fragments by
definition would inherently not have been as bright as the main
body.

4. Variable or Linear Trajectory. As Rudiak points out, the
account obtained by James McDonald from Moore in about 1967
indicates a purely linear or ballistic trajectory consistent
with a meteor. However, the original azimuth/elevation data from
the theodolite in 1949 do indicate a course change. But it must
be recognized that a meteor that fragments MUST change course,
by the same laws of conservation of momentum that are observed
every day with subatomic particles that fragment with a "main
body" (the heavier particle) being deflected from its path while
smaller particles fly off in differing directions. In addition,
a meteor with a random aerodynamic shape and orientation could
"bounce" in a HORIZONTAL direction just as well as in the
VERTICAL direction, without ANY FRAGMENTATION.

4a. The Object's Rise at the End. The approximately 4-degree
ascent of the Arrey object in 1949 is roughly comparable to the
2-degree rise of the Rocky Mountain Fireball in 1972 that was
measured by DSP satellite triangulation. Given the round-off
errors in the figures hurriedly taken down by Moore's crew
(notice they did NOT report theodolite readings to a minute of
arc or 0.017 deg. as the instrument was capable of providing),
the 25 and 29-degree readings could easily have been +/- 0.5
degree each or even +/- 1 degree each, so the "rise" could have
been from say 25.5 to 28.5 degrees or even 26 to 28 degrees.
Thus the Arrey object might really have ascended by the same
2-degree angle as did the Rocky Mountain Fireball.

5. Speed. Moore ASSUMED escape velocity in order to estimate an
altitude and distance to the object, since quite logically the
object clearly was not headed for the ground and did appear to
have ESCAPED the earth's gravity or at the very least have
entered earth orbit (as had long been suspected of the great
fireball meteor procession seen by numerous observers from
Ontario to New Jersey and Bermuda in 1913).

The speeds that were posted recently (see below) are in error by
more than 20%, they are understated, and correcting the errors
brings us about half way even to the 35,000 mph meteor velocity
cited, though that is not really necessary as much slower
meteors are on record. The Rocky Mountain Fireball was tracked
by DSP satellite to a minimum speed of 31,790 mph, for example.
For an object 60 miles high at 60 degrees maximum elevation and
an angular speed of 5 degrees/second, the slant-range distance
is found from 60/(sin 60 degs.) = 69 miles approx. and the speed
is about 6 miles/second or 22,000 mph (NOT 5 miles/sec or 18,000
mph). At 80 miles high the distance is 92 miles and the speed is
about 29,000 mph (not 24,000 mph).

6. No One Thought of an Escaping Meteor Before. Until the 1972
Rocky Mountain meteor was PROVEN to have escaped back into outer
space by highly classified satellite data, NO ONE in astronomy
recognized the existence of escaping meteors whether a Donald
Menzel or anyone else, so obviously such a Space Age- type
explanation was not previously considered for the Arrey case in
pre- Sputnik 1949. In fact it was evidently considered an
IMPOSSIBILITY. And it doesn't matter that C. B. Moore has a
distinguished scientific career or not, it doesn't change the
facts of the sighting. To try to sway the facts of a case based
on what did NOT enter the MINDS of numbers of fallible PEOPLE,
instead of what the actual sighting details convey, is a tenuous
argument at best.

I very much enjoyed this analysis and appreciate the posting
that provided much food for thought in the interesting technical
comments made on this classic 1949 case.

Brad Sparks






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 21

              Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 17:07:50 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:43:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 11:33:18 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:24:40 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

>>>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:09:34 -0500
>>>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo
>>>Sender: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>Given that Marcel reportedly claimed the debris he was
>>>photographed with came from the 'flying saucer' and that it's
>>>obvious the same type of material is shown in all three
>>>photographs - i.e., there was no 'switch' - what is the basis
>>>for disputing Marcel's testimony? [End]

>>Remember that Moore offered three different versions of the
>>quotes attributed to Marcel, first in his book, then when he
>>sent out his notes, and finally in his magazine, FOCUS.

>>Second, Johnny Mann, when he was in Roswell with Jesse Marcel,
>>Sr. showed Marcel the pictures in THE ROSWELL INCIDENT. Mann
>>says that Marcel told him those pictures had been staged.

>There is NO dispute that the pictures taken of Major Marcel were
>staged. I staged them.

Yes, but Marcel has been reported as saying that he was
photographed at some point with the real debris. The debris in
Ramey's office was not the real debris.

>It has been published repeatedly that I
>helped to unpack the "flying saucer" crash debris that Marcel
>couriered from Roswell to Fort Worth on orders of General Ramey.

This is something that has just come up in the last few months.
And, the story as told originally, that is in February of 1998,
was that Dr. Johnson unpacked the debris while waiting in
Ramey's office. In the last few weeks that has changed to he and
DuBose unpacking the debris. That is after failing to mention
this interesting fact during any of the earlier interviews
conducted for the last decade.

>Then I "posed" -- arranged, displayed -- the junk in an attempt
>to make a meaningful photo record and then took the six famous
>pictures of Major Marcel, General Ramey and Colonel Dubose
>examining the debris. There is NO issue here.

The issue here is if Marcel was referring to the pictures taken
in Ramey's office. According to Moore, "Later, after torn up
pieces of an actual weather device had been substituted for the
real wreckage on General Ramey's orders, press photographers
were permitted to photograph and examine at will.... [The
photograph] shows General Ramey and his adjutant (sic) Colonel
DuBose [please note the spelling] posing with this substitute
'wreckage'."

So we have a real problem here, according to the story reported
by Moore because the wreckage in the photographs of Marcel is of
the real stuff but the wreckage in the photographs of Ramey and
Ramey and DuBose is not the real stuff. Clearly the all the
photos show the weather balloon.

>>As far as I know, that is the only time that Marcel referred to those
>>pictures. He did tell Friedman, in his video, that he was in
>>pictures with the real debris, but those pictures were not taken
>>in Fort Worth and were not taken by J. Bond Johnson regardless
>>of what he says.

>Where is there ANY evidence that Marcel said that there was any
>OTHER photo session? I have not seen ANY such account. He
>certainly didn't reveal any such to his family and any other
>pictures certainly are invisible.      The pictures I took are
>VERY visible -- and as a result of the ongoing "Roswell
>Revisitation" RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team) project
>they are revealing VERY interesting multiple symbols and
>anomalous objects which NO ONE yet has identified as being of
>terrestrial origin. Yet KRandle CONTINUES to try to confuse the
>record re Roswell.

Marcel, according to Johnny Mann, said that the photographs
taken in Ramey's office were not of the material he recovered in
Roswell. He said all those pictures were staged. If he was
photographed at some point with the real debris, then there had
to be another photographic session. The point is that ALL the
photographs taken in Ramey's office are of a WEATHER BALLOON.

>>DuBose has told us, on video tape, that the material that was
>>photographed in Ramey's office was not the stuff found in
>>Roswell.

>When General Dubose was interviewed on several occasions 40 plus
>years later his memory obviously was dim. As a result he made
>several conflicting statements, including that the debris
>displayed in General Ramey's office WAS INDEED the debris Marcel
>gathered up on a Roswell ranch and brought immediately to Fort
>Worth for personal inspection by General Ramey and Dubose. I
>certainly can be sympathetic to the memory problems suffered by
>Dubose and all of us as Roswell witnesses.

If we accept that the material photographed in Ramey's office is
the material Marcel picked up in Roswell, then the mystery is
solved. If it was switched, as has been suggested by those in
the MILITARY who were there, then the mystery remains.

At least General DuBose's memories were fairly consistent. The
disputes have grown out of the reporting of his statements by
others. However, Dr. Johnson's memories have radically changed
since I first spoke to him nearly a decade ago. At that time he
was convinced that he had seen a weather balloon and told me
several times that General Ramey told him it was a balloon.

>>It is clear that what was photographed was nothing more than a
>>weather balloon and rawin target.

>And the world is flat.

You would know.






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   Dec > Dec 21

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:11:09 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:53:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:13:34 -0300
>Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 04:12:51 -0500
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:23:14 -0800
>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 98 16:40:26 PST
>>>Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:07:26 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>><snip>

>>>Ah, Jan, you think you can fool us? It's pretty clear, as
>>>Gary-logic would inform us, that government agents such as
>>>Keyhoe and Hall were deep-sixing the sensitive government
>>>documents before you ever got to see them. Or maybe _you_ are a
>>>government agent. Remember, Gary's already hinted darkly that
>>>_I_ am one, so if I'm one -- and all you have to do is to
>>>disagree with him to come under suspicion -- you might as well
>>>be one, too. Why, I'll bet this list is crawling with others of
>>>our kind. It's just too bad that Gary is too smart for us.

>>Ah, Jerry, everyone is a government agent except thee and me.
>>And sometimes I'm not so sure about thee.

>>The evidence will some come out as soon as the Free Mason's
>>writings are decoded. BTW do we know if Sherm Larson was a
>>Mason?

>>Covertly yours,

>>Jan Aldrich

>Watch him Jerry. I know for a fact that Jan hangs around nuclear
>submarine bases.

>Don

Don, you outted me! Now I know how Speaker-Elect Livingston
felt! May as well come clean. I also even spoke to the base
commander. But I deny giving him files I took from Loren Gross,
and I never tried to have sex on the USS Nautilis!

Great book (Maritime UFO Files) BTW, but it only could have been
written by a member of Canadian intelligence. I know where you
went on that trip to North Carolina. Stopped off at Washington
didn't we? Uh-hah! Had to get all the good stuff censored out.

Resignedly yours,
--
Jan Aldrich





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   Dec > Dec 21

              Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 17:32:58 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:08:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo


Hi List and all -

This discussion has degenerated into an argument between Dr.
Johnson and me. I was going to put together a long piece
relating all the various tales that Dr. Johnson has offered over
the years, but decided it was not worth all the effort because
it already exists. The Updates archive will certainly show how
the stories told by Dr. Johnson have evolved since he joined the
list.

For those who want some additional information, might I suggest:

http:///www.randlereport.com

One of the articles on the site explains, in detail, my
involvement with Dr. Johnson. You'll read a quote about
listening. I have planned to include wave files but haven't done
it. Anyway, the data are all there for those interested.

KRandle





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   Dec > Dec 21

             Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 15:06:30 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:12:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:54:37 -0500
>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>You can maybe help answer a few more questions though; on June
>16th, 1964, Meier was apparently in New Delhi and took a 'UFO'
>photograph which I have a copy of and which was published on the
>front page of a local newspaper.

>Was this his first 'UFO' photograph - if not, when was his first
>known photograph taken?

Apparently in September of 1955 at Basel, Switzerland, when 8
round radiant UFOs flew above the Ciba A.G. plant. There were
other witnesses to this, according to Stevens in his
'Supplementary Investigation Report', p. 53.

Then when in Zurich Meier photographed 5 white, spherical UFOs
on 6 June 1959; there were many witnesses. Apparently it was
this event that made it into the weekly UFO newspaper called UFO
Nachrichten, No. 36 of August 1959 (Wiesbaden).

>Were there many photographs taken prior to his residence in
>Switzerland?

We don't know how many were taken when he was in India during
June-July of 1964, but 11 of them survive.

>Approximately how many 'UFO' photographs has he taken overall?

To these, you add another 314 or so that are within Meier's
photo albums and listed in his Verzeichnis. Then there are the
many rolls of film that he never received back from the
developers, plus all the ones tht were loaned out and not
returned, and others lost.

Jim Deardorff
Corvallis, Oregon
E-mail: deardorj@proaxis.com





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   Dec > Dec 21

                             Re: Triangular UFOs

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:32:45 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:05:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Triangular UFOs


I am looking for any information regarding the names and/or
whereabouts of the "pilots" who claimed that it was they, and
not a UFO, which made headlines in New York State in the early
1980s.  Reports of a triangular UFO sightings by credible
witnesses were widespread during that time period.  There were
also reports of landings.

Many of these UFOs were reported near or hovering over,
watershed and reservoirs in Westchester County between 1980 and
about 1986.  Statements alleged to have been made by pilots of
either ultralights or other small aircraft, based in or near
Newburg, New York, indicated that regular flights were made by
them during this time.

I would be grateful for any information however meager it may
appear to be, as I wish to interview these people.

Strict anonymity is guaranteed.  Reply to this address or to:

jsmortellaro@erols.com

please... and thank you.






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   Dec > Dec 21

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:00:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:46:06 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:06:12 -0500

>>Oh, Michael....please.

>>Leanne has a right not to believe abductions are real. At the
>>moment there's no scientific proof of their reality.

>>Nor does she slander abductees by not believing. She can, for
>>instance, conclude that they're honestly reporting what they
>>believe happened, but that they're mistaken.

>>Some abductees find this difficult to swallow, I know. But they
>>themselves, many of them, were at first wary of accepting that
>>their abductions are real. Surely abductees and abduction
>>believers can understand that abductions are a stretch for many
>>perfectly sympathetic people -- and that if someone like Leanne
>>wants to wait for genuine proof, she's not slandering abductees
>>by doing so.

>>Greg Sandow

>Greg, I'm not questioning her right to "believe" what she
>wants...I just question her right to sit her in the public arena
>and state that she does not believe it...

Whatever happened to the First Amendment you Americans seem so
keen on? Presumably it doesn't apply to UFO Skeptics.

>I know this sounds hard, but it is not meant to...it is intended
>to protect those abductees who read this list, who may not be as
>strong of character as you and I are....

How amazingly patronizing! So we should censor our disscussions
to accomodate a few shrinking violets who can't stand robust
debate.

>We can say pretty much what we want to to each other, and take
>the reply without lasting psychological damage to either of
>us...however, as I stated before, there are some abductees, who
>cannot take even the slightest hint that they may be "imagining"
>these events.

And this is where we get to the core of the problem. What are
abduction researchers supposed to be doing? I and many others
believe they should be conducting a scientific investigation, as
objectively as possible, into a phenomenon which challenges our
current understanding of the universe. Others, and it seems
Michael Christol is one, believe that abduction "researchers"
should not actually be doing any research, but should be
unqualified backyard therapists who believe everything the
abductee tells them. If we have to avoid the "slightest hint" of
critical thinking we may as well pack up this list now and start
discussing quilting patterns.

>As I said in the other message, there have been alleged
>abductees, who have committeed suiside becasue they could not
>deal with the "dreams," "ideas,", or what every you wish to call
>what is/has happened to them...

>I have studied this phenomena for many years, and have heard
>many stories alleged to have happened to men, women and
>children.  In one case, the woman who was abducted was a very
>religious woman, with high moral beliefs, and when she found
>herself naked on a table being probed by big eyed what ever's,
>she freked out and lost touch with reality, and the abductors
>could not help her...she eventually created suicide, and her
>husband was allegedly restrained in a chair and made to watch
>the whole thing....

>He kept telling "them" to stop they were hurting her...these
>alleged alines looked at him and put the thought in his mind
>that they were not hurting her, and could not understand why she
>was reacting the way she was....

>I am writing this story from memory...But, I have it somewhere
>in my research files.

A lot of "alleged" in that touching little tale... I'd like to
have a little more detail from your research files before
putting it anywhere above "unconfirmed rumour". Even if there is
any element of truth in it, it clearly invoves a couple of
seriously disturbed individuals who are probably not being
helped by having every one of their irrational fears and
fantasies "confirmed" by a eager-believer researcher.

>How could someone who apparently has never been removed from the
>safety of their little world and put through some of the horror
>stories we have heard, understand such an experience???

>It would be akin to a young man telling a soldier who had spent
>one or two years in the jungles of South Vietnam, that it was
>not really a war, that is was just a skirmish, and the
>Government exagerated about the numbers of soldiers killed and
>the horror these soldiers experienced...

>Yes, that young man may have the right to express such a belief,
>but would it be correct? Would it be appropriate for him to say
>it in an open forum which was participated in by those soldiers
>who was in Vietnam????

I don't want to get involved in discussions about Vietnam (we've
had that already on this list recently) but people _are_
entitled to express contrary and controversial views about
subjects that others have strong personal feelings about. The
recent Iraq episode may be a necessary tactical strike against a
dangerous despot, or it may be a diversionary tactic to draw
attention away from Clinton's impeachment. I've heard both views
expressed - are you saying that people are not allowed to
discuss these issues just in case they upset someone who was
involved in the conflict?

>As for your own experiences, how much does it bother you hearing
>someone tell you "I don't believe it happened?"

If I'm convinced, rightly or wrongly, that I'm right (as most
abductees seem to be) it douesn't bother me at all. It's only if
there's an element of doubt in my mind does such criticism worry
me. (Ask Jerome Clark!)

>I know we can't force the subject on people, but people should
>learn to be respectful of other peoples opinions and feelings.
>That includes me...<g> ;-)

And people should learn to respect open debate and critical thought.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine, a division of the P.L.A. Driftwood International Cartel





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   Dec > Dec 21

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:03:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:13:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


Hello again, gentle list folk!

This message will be in reply to the December 17th missive of
Jan Aldrich but first I must make a few preliminary remarks.

We should always keep in mind the fact that to my critics on
this list I am a ufological nobody making wild and totally
unsubstantiated charges. Please read that sentence again, and
compare it with what has been happening on this list for the
last several days. That is, my wild and unsubstantiated charges
have brought down a veritable hurricane of abuse, a level of
response seemingly far, far above that deserved by wild and
unsubstantiated charges. Why has this been? Well, as my
private mail has shown, there is reason for the reaction of my
critics and those list readers with experience in this field
know that full well. That's why I'm writing my book.

So, let us consider Mr. Aldrich's December 17th comments. His
remarks, which I will have to edit for space, will be proceeded
by a single arrow:

>It would be interesting to know just who this "reliable"
>source was.

No doubt it would and I could just provide that information to
you for free. But in a long-established ufological tradition I
am going to reserve that little tidbit for myself and perhaps
the future readers of my book.

And anyway, Mr. Hall has the REAL files of NICAP, the ones
Donald Keyhoe himself kept. . .in a safe, more on this file later.

>During the 1960s and 1970s I visited NICAP a number of
>times. I copied from the files and placed material in the
>files. Pretty much I was given free rein to look at
>whatever I pleased.

I think this rather says it all, does it not? That is, shall we
say that the security of these files was, er, suspect during the
1960s and 1970s? I think that's a fair statement. Now, I ask
you, if you were running NICAP (during the Keyhoe era) would you
put your crown jewels into such a file? That is, there might be
some pretty good material in there but, well, as for the very,
very best -- that's going to be someplace else, isn't it! Donald
Keyhoe himself noted that certain materials were segregated from
the NICAP files. He also noted that these were so sensitive that
they were kept in a safe.

Regarding NICAP files Donald Keyhoe had this to say
in his Foreword to "Flying Saucers Top Secret" pp. 10-11.


 "If that resistance continues to block open hearings, [at this
time Keyhoe was trying to obtain Congressional hearings on UFO
secrecy - GA.] it is hoped that this book will bring sufficient
public support to end the secrecy on this vitally important
subject. The following chapters include all the important
evidence presented to individual congressmen and committee
chairmen, including details of the behind-the-scenes battle
against censorship.

 As indicated in the text, the main points are backed by
documentary evidence; this is available for inspection at the
NICAP office in Washington, except for a few documents listed as
confidential, which are certified as genuine by Board members
and the Secretary of NICAP."

 Elsewhere Keyhoe notes that The NICAP confidential files
included among other things copies of intelligence report
extracts. [Flying Saucers Top Secret pp. 272-3]


The following concerns my recent post about the NICAP files
turned over to CUFOS by Mr. Larsen:

>After reading this post I called Richard Hall. . .who
>confirmed that there was not much government material.

My, my, how the wind does blow -- all the way to Washington! The
Internet continues to amaze me, as does the fact that Mr. Hall
has e-mail, something not widely known to readers of his column
in UFO Magazine. As for the lack of government material in
NICAP's files, the NUMBERS are not anywhere near as important as
the CONTENT, something all good agents know from the cradle.
That is, one would probably have had to pull only a very few
items from that file to hugely vitiate
its worth to someone like me.

And isn't it the fact that Mr. Hall has, in his basement I
believe, Keyhoe's private files? I wonder what government
documents were there at the time those files came into Mr.
Hall's possession, hm? The reason I ask this is because in a
recent UFO Magazine column Mr. Hall, who has been around ufology
since the Eisenhower administration, produced a list of
ufology's great unanswered questions. Shall we say that document
security/reliability/chain of custody issues were not included
in that list of questions. . .when in fact they are at the heart
of the burning issues surrounding ufology today -- as many list
members are now seeing for
the first time!

Continuing with Mr. Aldrich, vis-a-vis NICAP's files:

>Not everything was salvaged, however. Most of the
>sighting files and significant correspondence were.

Once again, readers should note the lawyerly wording here, which
is so in vogue these days - salvage. This really is an admission
of leakage, loss or shall we say the disappearance of files that
could well have included the BEST of the information.

Folks, it is a fact that conclusions based on those files are
hardly situated on solid bedrock. Too many hands have been in
the cookie jar for far too long. And to indicate that NICAP went
public with everything it got in the government document line
is, well, off the mark, as anyone who has actually done research
knows. That is,
quoting Mr. Hall through Mr. Aldrich:

>Mostly, if they got something that originated from the
>government, NICAP took it to the media.

This may have been true with some material but you have to
realize that Keyhoe would have been out of business very soon if
this was the actual policy followed with every document he was
leaked. Mr. Aldrich would have us believe that Keyhoe was
passing on intelligence report extracts to the media! As Keyhoe
knew very well if you want to keep the flow coming you have to
be discreet, very discreet, and keep much of this material in
your private files, and Keyhoe demonstrates just this in his
book.

In conclusion, I quote Mr. Aldrich on Sherm Larsen:

>Sherm Larsen was a good organizer, a moderately good UFO
>investigator, and from his writings a rather naive person.

It's Interesting that although I was accused of besmirching Mr.
Larsen's record I am not the only one doing so -- as anyone who
reads Mr. Aldrich's comment above can see. I have stated that
Mr. Larsen was a member of the Army Counterintellligence Corps
(CIC), a fact not in dispute, and that he was a professional. I
also stated that I admired the intelligence based analysis
Larsen contributed to the ufological literature. Judging from
his comments above Mr. Aldrich doesn't need my help in
besmirching Mr. Larsen's record in the UFO arena, and is doing
that well enough on his own.

I must particularly disagree with Mr. Aldrich characterizing Mr.
Larsen's writings as "naive."  Larsen was anything but that as
his writings plainly show.

I wonder if Mr. Aldrich is REALLY familiar with any of them? It
is a pity that Mr. Larsen's friend, Jerry Clark, didn't cite any
of his work in his encyclopedia. It is also sad that Mr.
Aldrich, himself a former Army intelligence officer, would
criticize Mr. Larsen's work as "naive". This leads me to reflect
on the following well known quotation:

  "A man is known by his enemies."

Now, this is often true. Let's just say that I'm proud of mine.
And let me add that there is one large advantage to an enemy and
that is that he can never betray you -- because you have never
given him your trust.

It's your friends that sell you down the river. Sherm who are
your friends today?

Gary Alevy

P.S. Congratulations to Richard Hall on his fortieth anniversary





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   Dec > Dec 21

                Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:54:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:07:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'


>Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 05:59:08 -0500
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'

>After reading the Ellen Gray article I contacted Ray and asked him
>about the Fox program. This is his reply...

>THE TENT FOOTAGE

>The Tent Footage was the first film material I collected from the
>cameraman, it was in the form of 16mm film and in very poor
>condition. I brought it back to England and asked a studio facility
>in Milton Keynes to retrieve whatever image they could from it.
>Approximately a week (maybe longer) after delivery the Studio in
>Milton Keynes presented me with the film which has become known as
>the ""Tent Footage" I was told that this was all that could be
>retrieved from the film.

>I had informed the cameraman by telephone that we were able to
>retrieve some image and indeed showed the film to Philip Mantel and
>other interested parties.


The first footage to be revealed by Ray was indeed the 'tent
footage', which Philip, Reg Presley and George Wingfield were
shown. The first of those to see that film was apparently Reg,
sometime between December 1994 and January 1995.

So far as I can see, the earliest public indication that the
'tent footage' was considered problematical came from George
Wingfield:

Santilli Alien Film :  GW Bulletin 11.   October 1st 1995

"Ray Santilli has said that he sold the first autopsy sequence
independently to a German "collector of rare 16mm film" in order
to finance other parts of his business.  Other reports say
Volker Spielberg made this sale.  Santilli has also said that,
although he was satisfied with the authenticity of the (second)
autopsy sequence, he was not satisfied with that of the tent
footage.  He implied that it made the whole thing look bad and
so he was not going to include it". [End]


Two points which should be noted for those not familiar with the
story:

1. The 'first autopsy', footage has rarely been shown - Philip
Mantle is the only person I know who has definitely seen it.

2. Ray clarified to myself that Volker Spielberg is not as such
a "collector of rare 16mm film", he collects, according to Ray,
"anything of REAL value". From research I'm aware of, Volker
Spielberg, who Ray claims financed the film's purchase, may
indeed be wealthy, although this has proved impossible to
quantify.


Ray continues:

>I returned to the States later to collect the main film and showed
>the "Tent Footage" on VHS to the cameraman.

>At this point he stated that he did not remember either the image
>being portrayed or the style in which it had been filmed. I was
>concerned but continued to collect the remaining film and returned
>to the United Kingdom.

This isn't the same sequence of events as Ray has previously
stated, however, leaving that aside, he adds:

>Upon my return I contacted the studio in Milton Keynes to find out
>more about the images from the "Tent Footage".  To my surprise Andy
>(my friend and owner of the studio) admitted to playing a joke on me.
>They were unable to retrieve anything of consequence from the film
>therefore he staged a spoof never thinking that I would want to use
>it. As a result part of the film (Tent Footage) returned was hoaxed
>by him as a practical Joke.


This is immensely significant for the 'alien autopsy' story.


For the first time, so far as I'm aware, Ray is claiming that he
knew the 'tent footage' was a hoax, before the summer of 1995.

It's understandable that the 'tent footage' was, as Ray
acknowledged on several occasions, considered to detract from
the central footage, yet this has apparently never been
disclosed before now.


For example, during September 1995, in a posting to CompuServe's
MUFON forum, Bob Shell wrote:

"The tent footage, shot at the crash site under light from
emergency lanterns,  shows technicians cutting the "space suit"
off one of the bodies because, to quote the cameraman, it was
holding in heat and hastening decomposition.  The fabric was
very tough, and they eventually had to use sheet metal cutters
to cut it".

How could the 'cameraman' - presumably Ray Santilli 'passing on'
the message - confirm this if it's now claimed the 'cameraman'
didn't recognise the 'tent footage' and by September of 1995,
Ray knew that film was a joke?


On 4 January 1996, Bob also wrote to the forum:

"Ray said to me that the complete tent footage was contained
within the "junk reel" when I was in his office in October.  He
motioned with his hands to indicate the diameter of the reel.
He also mentioned at that time about the football game, family
stuff, and other unidentifiable footage included in this reel".

By this time, although it must have been long apparent that the
'tent footage' was a joke, apparently Ray was still maintaining
that the "complete tent footage" was part of a previously
mentioned, alleged 'junk reel' of 16mm film.


Even later, on 9 April 1996, Bob, in response to my queries re
his verification that some film samples were authentic 1947 film
stock, replied on the forum:

James,

That statement was made when I still thought this was camera
original film.

Since it is not, but a release print, this does not apply.
Original film with single perf or double perf can be copied onto
single perf print film, so this does not tell us what the
perforation of the original was.  I have no reason to doubt that
the autopsy sequences were shot with a Bell & Howell Filmo 70 as
stated.

On the other hand, the "tent" footage and debris footage were
probably shot with another type of camera.  The tent footage in
particular has long unbroken segments which could not be shot
with a spring wind camera.  This was undoubtedly filmed with an
electrically driven camera.  There was an add-on electric motor
for the Filmo 70, but it was so big and heavy that it was suited
only for tripod use.  Both the tent footage and debris footage
were filmed on a tripod, so this could have been used. [End]


The 'tent footage', with no mention it had long existed as a
hoax, was announced as featuring in Philip Mantle's BUFORA
conference lecture at the University of Northumbria on 27
January, 1996 and was also scheduled to be shown by Philip at
the Greensboro MUFON conference in the summer of 1996, a full
year after it was supposedly acknowledged to be a joke.


Perhaps Bob and Philip might comment on these points.





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   Dec > Dec 21

                         Ball Lighting and Tornadoes

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:21:56 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:16:32 -0500
Subject: Ball Lighting and Tornadoes


Hi list,

The following pertinent article was sent to me from an off-topic
list by:

markland@rockisland.com (Lee Markland)

----------------------------------------------------------------


Good article on the relationship between ball lightning and
tornados...

http://www.padrak.com/ine/ELEWIS3.html

whch contains the following paragraph....

Both tornadoes and ball lightning(21) are associated with
anomalously high energy output. Both have been reported to
scorch the ground or vegetation. F. Montgomery reported that
vegetation along the path of the Blackwell tornado was wilted or
looked burned and that the tornado "dried the ground." Both ball
lightning and tornadoes are associated with considerable
electricity. Some ball lightning constantly discharge
electricity, and by measuring the change of the earth electric
and magnetic field in the vicinity of a tornado, some tornado
researchers(22) have estimated that tornadoes are associated
with a steady current of hundreds of Amperes for minutes at a
time. This would be hundreds of times more than the electrical
output of a thunderstorm. This high output of electricity and
light radiation suggests energy production. Electrical
discharges from tiny plasmoids are also shown by the micrometer
sized plasmoid marks produced by Matsumoto, and Nardi and
Bostick(23).

and from the same article......

Other anomalous phenomena, such as people reporting being lifted
up by tornadoes without any wind or a car being lifted up and
carried by an egg-shaped BL phenomena only a few meters in
diameter, directly contradict the fundamental hypotheses of
prior theories, such as space-time and mass, and thus evidence
fundamental hypotheses. For example, a person named Dr. Pettier
saw fir trees being plucked up, and then "he felt a kind of
pressure from above; he noticed an unusual smell of ozone; then
he felt himself raised up, and this not by the wind, for it was
calm, but as though by some invisible force." Also, "on many
trees the foliage was scorched(25)." This particular tornado was
also associated with ball lightning and round holes with sharp
edges that were left in window panes, like the photographs and
SEM pictures of pits and tunnels in materials that Matsumoto has
shown in his articles. The learning of these phenomena is
important.





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   Dec > Dec 21

                Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 06:53:40 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:23:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:48:24 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'

>Dear List Members,

>Ray Santilli has posted his response to a Fox-TV expose he
>hasn't even seen yet!  It's in UFO UpDates - see:

>http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/dec/m20-012.shtml

>dated today Dec 20, 1998.  The Fox special airs on Dec 28.
>That's 8 days in the FUTURE.

>Santilli's response is completely irrelevant and a red herring
>because while he dwells on a tiny issue of analysis of a "tent"
>film clip (versus the long Alien Autopsy video itself), he
>completely evades the fact announced by Fox that it will
>reportedly air the CONFESSION from one of the Alien Autopsy
>hoaxers!

>Brad Sparks



Brad,

So you've _seen_ it?

You are committing the same sin you accuse Ray of.

Wait until you see it. I think you will find that what Ray says
is correct.  Kiviat has disproved the tent footage, and we've
known since the beginning that it has nothing to do with the
autopsy footage.

Bob





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   Dec > Dec 21

                     Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias

From: Bob Thrift - Institute for UFO Research <iufor@frii.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 08:07:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:28:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias
>Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 11:14:46 -0500

>>From: Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Abductions and Researcher Bias
>>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:00:27 -0600


We have spent appreciable amounts of time in efforts to connect
up possible abductees with qualified people who are willing to
work with them. Our experience has been that, in general, a wide
selection of possible therapists/investigators/whatever is
simply not open to them without the expenditure of more money
and travel time than the typical experiencer is willing to
commit.

Qualified professionals willing to work in this area don't grow
on trees. More often than not, if the experiencer can't find
someone within the local area (say, a few hours' travel time)
then they simply don't go at all -- even if they perceive their
problem as being severe. Most who contact us plead lack of
funds, lack of time, and current responsibilities, all of which
inhibit them from looking for help outside their local area.

Rather than choosing an investigator based on that
investigator's views, I think that in the majority of cases the
experiencer goes to a given investigator simply because it's the
only game in town, so to speak.

Unlike the situation along the heavily populated east coast,
most of the country has few investigators, and they are hundreds
of miles apart. Also, when the experiencer first begins to seek
help, he/she simply does not know enough about the situation to
realize that the abduction phenomenon is well known (to us, at
least), or that there are differing viewpoints among
investigators.

If there is an "investigator effect" on reported experiences, it
seems to me that it must develop after the relationship with the
investigator has begun. The pre-investigation choices simply
aren't there, for most of the people we have worked with.

There is a question concerning whether we who help experiencers
find someone, might be affecting the situation by our selection
of a referral to an investigator. We certainly do have a bias,
and in a few cases this might be true. However, in the majority
of cases we are under the same constraints as mentioned above --
we are able to find only one person in a given area that fits
the time, money, and travel limitations of the experiencer.

Best regards,
Bob
--

    INSTITUTE FOR UFO RESEARCH
----------------------------------
Bob Thrift, Fort Collins, Colorado
    http://www.frii.com/~iufor/





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   Dec > Dec 21

                          Blather: enough is enough

From: Daev Walsh <Blather <daev@blather.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:14:56 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:54:20 -0500
Subject: Blather: enough is enough

______________________________________________________
B  L  A  T  H  E  R

p a r a n o r m a l   p r o v o c a t e u r i s m

By Dave (daev) Walsh daev@blather.net
Web: http://www.blather.net
_______________________________________________________
December 18th 1998, Dublin, Ireland   Vol 2. No. 32
_______________________________________________________
NiceOne - Ireland's No.1 Internet Directory
NiceOne provides access to over 4,000 Irish Websites
supporting Irish products & Services on the World Wide Web.
(http://www.niceone.com)
______________________________________________________

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
In last week's Blather, a casual and fairly open-minded mention was
made of the skywatch (or UFO watch) which was to take place in Lough
Key Forest Park, Roscommon, on December 14th. Blather also made sure
to point out the *second* apparent coincidence of a ufological
skywatch - organised by an *astronomer*, Eamon Ansbro of PEIR
(Programme for Extra-terrestrial Intelligence) - with an annual
astronomical highlight - the Geminid meteor shower (7th-16th Dec),
which had peaked the night before. Mr. Ansbro had provided us with the
details of the skywatch a few days beforehand, during a phone
conversation. He asked if Blather would be making an appearance there
- we declined the invitation, enquiring instead about any PEIR or
ICUFOS (Irish Centre for UFO Studies) skywatches taking place around
Dublin on that night. Mr. Ansbro informed us that no such event was
taking place other than the Roscommon one.

Monday 14th was a cloudy night in Ireland's capital, useless for
meteor watching, whatever about UFO spotting. Even if one was looking
for the Geminds, the light pollution in built up areas would greatly
diminish the numbers of meteors seen (possibly over 100 per hour on
the peak night). Late on Monday night, Blather discovered that Today
FM's (an independent national radio station) Ian Noctor had been in
touch, with a view to a Blather radio appearance on the Ian Dempsey
show, to discuss the UFO predictions.

At 0845 hours on Tuesday 15th, armed with a pot of coffee that
contravened several UN peace resolutions, Blather was pitched against
Betty Myler of Roscommon's Western UFO Society, whose claims of 'ley
lines' and UFOs have previously suffered criticism in this journal.
Ian Dempsey asked her if the Lough Key skywatch had been fruitful -
She exclaimed that it had, with many sightings of blue, red and green
lights flashing *across* the sky at a very high speed. She
seemed breathless with excitement. Mr. Dempsey sought a response from
this quarter - we responded by pointing out the occurrence of meteor
showers on the night in question, and that they would not have been
'falling' but streaking across the sky, with a 'lopsided profile' (Sky
& Telescope). Curiously, red, green and blue UFOs seem to appear more
in the reports associated with Ansbro, Myler and Alan Sewell than
other unassociated Irish reports...

It became apparent in the course of the radio conversation, that a
skywatch *had indeed* taken place on Bull Island, on the northern
coast of Dublin City. This came as a surprise, due to the fact - as
mentioned above - that Ansbro had informed Blather to the contrary a
few days beforehand. What *was not* a surprise was that the presence
of a sceptical observer could have been done without.

Back to the show - a rather garrulous (for that time of the morning,
sympathetic as we are with Oscar Wilde's dictum 'Only dull people are
brilliant at breakfast' - no reflection on the caller, rather our
pre-midday grouchiness) a male caller to the show told of a sighting
of two lights over Bettystown golf course, on the Co. Meath coastline,
north of Dublin. Ian Dempsey passed a wry comment about possible
luminous golf balls, and before concluding, turned to another caller
(also male), who had seen a light in the sky over Gormanstown - south
of Bettystown.

Since Tuesday, an inkling of a report ambled our way, concerning an
apparent UFO sighting in Co. Mayo.


Without for one moment doubting the integrity of the two callers, the
questions arise:

If there had been no predictions of UFOs, would any of the witnesses
have seen anything of possible import on Monday night?

If Ian Dempsey and Today FM (as well as other radio stations) had
declined to host planned discussions, would those callers have
bothered to phone anyone, report anything, or attach any significance
to their experiences?

This isn't to disparage Today FM - on the contrary, considering it was
a brief slot on primetime breakfast radio, they dealt with the matter
in a remarkably and refreshingly objective manner, a refreshing change
to the tabloidish treatment dealt with by some quarters of the media,
while others choose to ignore such topics entirely.

On the other hand, this ongoing campaign of PEIR/ICUFOS to foster
belief in extra-terrestrial visitation, seems to be becoming
increasingly questionable - Blather was content to deliver the odd wry
disparagement in the past, but having been fed apparently deliberate
misinformation by Eamon Ansbro - an astronomer who feels the need to
mislead the naive into thinking that regular astronomical events are
instead epiphanic visitations from other worlds - we have decided
that enough is enough.


*December's Generous Geminids*
Sky & Telescope
http://www.skypub.com/sights/meteors/geminids/98preview_geminids.html

_______________________________________________________

THAT FECKIN MILLENNIUM MONUMENT
Not that Blather is steeped in grumpiness this week - just on a roll
of devilish pedantry. Great moaning and sarcasm are abroad in Dublin,
due to plans to erect a huge stainless steel spike in O'Connell St. to
replace the long absent Nelson's Pillar (reportedly blown up by the
Irish Republican Army in 1966, but some reckon it was an unofficial
demolition by the Irish government), and to mark the change of
millennium. Many wonder what the *point* of a steel spike is, others
criticise the waste of money, and the rest of us throw our eyes to
heaven (even the atheists). When attempts were made to claim it as a
Christian monument (the phallus of the son of a god?), Blather felt
the need to get an oar in. See:

*The Irish Times*, Letters to the Editor, Wednesday December 16 1998
http://www.irish-times.com/irish-times/paper/1998/1216/lea.htm#4

O'Connell Street Monument
http://www.archeire.com/onsite/index.html

Nelson's Pillar - before and after
http://www.iol.ie/~patc/photo/photo.htm

The Official Dublin Millennium Website
http://www.dublin-2000.com

For more such shenanigans, see *Pre-Millennial Tension*, the
new Fortean Times column, belted out from the same keyboard as
*Blather*.
http://www.forteantimes.com/countdown/default.htm


_______________________________________________________


WHAT'S NEW AT MAGONIA
Vice-Blatherskite Mark Pilkington has issued an urgent memo concerning
the latest offerings on the *Magonia* website.

Abduction Watch #15
Feet and mouth, implants special. Dr Leir's flaky evidence.

ETH Bulletin #9
Saucers full of secrets. Where's the evidence for the global cover-up?

http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/newmag.htm


_______________________________________________________

CLAIMS OF THE NORMAL
First Timothy Leary died (but did he?). Then that old insect William
S. Burroughs popped his cogs. Blather recently recorded the demise of
Kerry Thornley, founder of Discordianism. Robert Anton Wilson (another
who was once reported to have died, but has vigorously denied that
charge ever since) now laments the demise of Timothy F.X. Finnegan,
founder of the Committee for Surrealist Investigation of the Claims of
the Normal (CSICON) and Dean of the Royal Sir Myles na gCopaleen
Astro-Anomalistic Society.

http://www.botree.com/raw/index.htm

_______________________________________________________

ERRATA
Last week's email version contained a bad URL for the Blather
archives, for a report on last year's UFO predictions/Geminid showers.
The correct address should be:

http://www.blather.net/archives/issue1no32.html

_______________________________________________________

This week's issue was written on a laptop, somewhere between Dublin
and Galway.

Dave (daev) Walsh
18th December 1998
daev@blather.net

_______________________________________________________

SPONSORSHIP:
While Blather will always remain free to the subscriber, we're
always willing to talk to interested parties with regard to
sponsorship.
Contact: daev@blather.net

_______________________________________________________

For the Blather archives, please go to:
http://www.blather.net/archives/index.html

_______________________________________________________


SUBSCRIBING TO BLATHER
Send an email to:
<list@blather.net>
with the word
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in the body of the message. An automatic acknowledgement
should be returned to you by e-mail within a few minutes.

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with the word
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in the body of the message.

TECHNICAL PROBLEMS
If you are having any technical problems,
please email admin@blather.net
_______________________________________________________

|d|i|s|i|n|f|o|r|m|a|t|i|o|n|
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Everything You Know is Wrong!

* Buy Things You Don't Need in The Disinformation Headshop!
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 21

                Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:59:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:47:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'


>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 06:53:40 -0500 (EST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
>>Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:48:24 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'

>Brad,

>So you've _seen_ it?

>You are committing the same sin you accuse Ray of.

>Wait until you see it. I think you will find that what Ray says
>is correct. Kiviat has disproved the tent footage, and we've
>known since the beginning that it has nothing to do with the
>autopsy footage.

>Bob

Agreed. We'll all know more next week.

Looking at all of the information that has been posted on this
program I would suspect that Kiviat has an interview with the
individual who came forward last year to confess that he had
been involved in the "Tent Sequence". I don't think anyone has
come forward to confess involvement in the production of the
autopsy sequence, but would be glad if someone could put this
matter to rest once and for all.






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   Dec > Dec 21

                         Happy Christmas - UK.UFO.NW

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:22:11 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:57:50 -0500
Subject: Happy Christmas - UK.UFO.NW

From: United Kingdom UFO Network <ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk>
Organization: United Kingdom UFO Network
Subject: Happy Christmas - UK.UFO.NW
To: UFO@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

United Kingdom UFO Network

May we all here at United Kingdom UFO Network
wish you a very Happy Christmas.
--------------------------------
United Kingdom UFO Network
ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk
http://www.holodeck.demon.co.uk/





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   Dec > Dec 21

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 16:54:49 PST
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:06:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:03:19 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

Hi, Gary and other watchers of the Sinister Conspiracy,

>We should always keep in mind the fact that to my critics on
>this list I am a ufological nobody making wild and totally
>unsubstantiated charges. Please read that sentence again, and
>compare it with what has been happening on this list for the
>last several days. That is, my wild and unsubstantiated charges
>have brought down a veritable hurricane of abuse, a level of
>response seemingly far, far above that deserved by wild and
>unsubstantiated charges. Why has this been? Well, as my
>private mail has shown, there is reason for the reaction of my
>critics and those list readers with experience in this field
>know that full well. That's why I'm writing my book.

Please explain, Gary. Yes, your charges, as you are honest
enough to acknowledge, are wild and unsubstantiated. Yes, your
characterization of the responses to them is typically
hyberbolic and self-righteous. But what is the "reason for the
reaction of my critics" besides a simple desire to set the
record straight? Please -- no further unbridled speculation.
Just show us the evidence for once. And don't try to pick our
brains via telepathy, since you've already demonstrated that
there's plenty of static on your mental radio.


>>After reading this post I called Richard Hall. . .who
>>confirmed that there was not much government material.

>My, my, how the wind does blow -- all the way to Washington! The
>Internet continues to amaze me, as does the fact that Mr. Hall
>has e-mail, something not widely known to readers of his column
>in UFO Magazine. As for the lack of government material in
>NICAP's files, the NUMBERS are not anywhere near as important as
>the CONTENT, something all good agents know from the cradle.
>That is, one would probably have had to pull only a very few
>items from that file to hugely vitiate
>its worth to someone like me.

>And isn't it the fact that Mr. Hall has, in his basement I
>believe, Keyhoe's private files? I wonder what government
>documents were there at the time those files came into Mr.
>Hall's possession, hm? The reason I ask this is because in a
>recent UFO Magazine column Mr. Hall, who has been around ufology
>since the Eisenhower administration, produced a list of
>ufology's great unanswered questions. Shall we say that document
>security/reliability/chain of custody issues were not included
>in that list of questions. . .when in fact they are at the heart
>of the burning issues surrounding ufology today -- as many list
>members are now seeing for
>the first time!

I knew it! I knew it! Remember my prediction that soon
Gary would have no choice but to implicate Dick Hall in the
conspiracy? Way to go, guy!

>In conclusion, I quote Mr. Aldrich on Sherm Larsen:

>>Sherm Larsen was a good organizer, a moderately good UFO
>>investigator, and from his writings a rather naive person.

Actually, since Gary never met Sherm and knows virtually nothing
about him, he is no position to dispute the above, which happens
to be accurate, but of course that won't stop him, to wit:

>It's Interesting that although I was accused of besmirching Mr.
>Larsen's record I am not the only one doing so -- as anyone who
>reads Mr. Aldrich's comment above can see. I have stated that
>Mr. Larsen was a member of the Army Counterintellligence Corps
>(CIC), a fact not in dispute, and that he was a professional. I
>also stated that I admired the intelligence based analysis
>Larsen contributed to the ufological literature. Judging from
>his comments above Mr. Aldrich doesn't need my help in
>besmirching Mr. Larsen's record in the UFO arena, and is doing
>that well enough on his own.

>I must particularly disagree with Mr. Aldrich characterizing Mr.
>Larsen's writings as "naive." Larsen was anything but that as
>his writings plainly show.

Sherm was hardly stupid, but he was not intellectually
sophisticated, either. The paper Gary believes to be the work
of a brilliant and original mind was, in reality, a recycling of
views exactly like those NICAP, with which Sherm was associated
as a regional officer, had long advocated. They would be
familiar to the point of banality to anybody who grew up with
NICAP, as Jan and I did.

Whatever his other strengths, Sherm was not a bold or creative
thinker, at least about UFO issues. (As I've said before, he was
pretty successful in the insurance business.) In all the time I
knew him -- and we spent many hours chatting about everything --
I don't recall his ever saying anything strikingly new or
interesting about the UFO phenomenon. If anybody else out there
knew Sherm, I hope that he or she will share his or her
experiences and impressions with the list. Perhaps you could
address this question: did _you_ ever hear Sherm say something
striking or novel about UFOs? Was it your impression that Sherm
was some species of genius, much less an agent of the cover-up?

I am sure that Sherm, wherever he is, is roaring with laughter
at his elevation to player in the Sinister Conspiracy that so
obsesses some in our midst. Of course, if we may judge by
Gary's standards, it doesn't take much to get there.


>I wonder if Mr. Aldrich is REALLY familiar with any of them? It
>is a pity that Mr. Larsen's friend, Jerry Clark, didn't cite any
>of his work in his encyclopedia. It is also sad that Mr.
>Aldrich, himself a former Army intelligence officer, would
>criticize Mr. Larsen's work as "naive". This leads me to reflect
>on the following well known quotation:

> "A man is known by his enemies."

Wow, further congratulations, guy! _Of course_ Jan is an agent
of the conspiracy. So am I. So is Dick Hall. So is Sherm
Larsen. So are at least 75% of the people reading this. Have
you looked under your bed lately? I'll bet one of those trench-
coated guys is just waiting for you to close your eyes tonight
-- not, of course, that you ever would. We know nothing gets
past you.

Seriously, Gary, if a man is known by his enemies, you
must not be known at all, since I don't consider you an
enemy -- just a naive and excitable saucer enthusiast
like many before you and many, I am sure, after you. I find
you far more amusing than offensive, and I bear you no
ill will at all. I don't even plan to turn you over to my MJ-12
superiors.

Gary, I'm sure you have your strengths. That they have not been
much apparent in this exchange does not mean, I am sure, that
they are nonexistent.  You may believe anything you wish,
including the flatness of the earth, to which your accusations
about Sherm Larsen are the intellectual equivalent. This is,
after all, a free country.

My intention was simply to put the record straight. But if you
need to have it crooked, have it your way, my friend. My only
regret is that you aren't using all that energy and imagination
for more reality-based and constructive purposes, but hey, it's
your life. And, of course, your dreams.

All best holiday wishes,

Jerry Clark
.





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   Dec > Dec 21

                The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:09:01 -0500
Subject: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


Hello All,

Have you noticed that after posting a copy of an x-ray from an
abductee that there have been absolutely no comments or remarks
on it? (Other than Nick Balaskas)

I posted some numbers based on an internal survey of the members
of AIC in regard to questions about the ethnicity of those
reporting abduction and nothing more has been posted on that
thread either.

In fact in every instance where something of substance was
offered, it stopped those threads dead in their tracks. It's
almost as if as long as it's just 'rap' and purely intellectual
it's ok, people will post away with lots to say. But put some
meat on the table, and the thread dies an abrupt and
unceremonius death.

Apparently folks would rather just 'talk' about the subject in
endless circles rather than deal with any facts that are being
presented. I am going ahead and I will attempt to get the x-rays
and other materials analysed. But I don't know of what value it
would be to post any results to this list. Unless it's just rap,
rap, and more rap, people don't seem very interested in anything
tangible/factual.

I have been listening to people whine; "Show me some proof" for
years on this list. But each and everytime an attempt is made to
provide it everyone falls silent and the thread just dies.
Armchair ufologists, all talk, no substance. Everytime I put up,
everybody shuts up.

I don't know, what does that tell you?

It speaks volumes to me.

Disappointed in New York,

John Velez, Webmaster IF-AIC
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."





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                     Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:04:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:17:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias


>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 08:07:30 -0700
>From: Bob Thrift - Institute for UFO Research <iufor@frii.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias

>We have spent appreciable amounts of time in efforts to connect
>up possible abductees with qualified people who are willing to
>work with them. Our experience has been that, in general, a wide
>selection of possible therapists/investigators/whatever is
>simply not open to them without the expenditure of more money
>and travel time than the typical experiencer is willing to
>commit.

<snip>

>Rather than choosing an investigator based on that
>investigator's views, I think that in the majority of cases the
>experiencer goes to a given investigator simply because it's the
>only game in town, so to speak.

Makes sense.

I wasn't really ruling this out in the post you're commenting
on. I was suggesting, rather, that abductees may not keep
working with an investigator whose view of abduction is very
different from theirs.






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   Dec > Dec 21

              Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 19:14:55 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:25:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 17:07:50 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Friedman's And Belyea's Study Of Ramey Photo

<snip>

>Yes, but Marcel has been reported as saying that he was
>photographed at some point with the real debris. The debris in
>Ramey's office was not the real debris.


<snip>

Kevin,

This is an absurd example of reasoning. In a mere two sentences
you leap from saying Marcel "has been reported as saying" to the
unequivocable conclusion that "the debris in Ramey's office was
not the real debris."

How so?

What if Marcel was wrong or mistaken -- or is that a permissible
sentiment?

As for James Bond Johnson's argument that what was photographed
in Ramey's ofice on that monumental day was the real
extraterrestrial stuff, well, yes, if ET spacecraft mimic
wrecked rawin targets and weather balloons.

You're both way out in left (or is it right?) field and we're
tried of hearing about it. What's pictured in Ramey's office is
what you get: the Roswell debris in its full-fledged glory, pure
and simple.

Which is that of a rawin target and balloon. Grow up, get over
it, and move on to something more meaningful.

Both of you.






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   Dec > Dec 21

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 19:40:57 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:29:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:00:30 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>>Greg, I'm not questioning her right to "believe" what she
>>wants...I just question her right to sit her in the public arena
>>and state that she does not believe it...

>Whatever happened to the First Amendment you Americans seem so
>keen on? Presumably it doesn't apply to UFO Skeptics.

Nothing that I know of...they are very much in effect, here. I
am simply stating my views as a person who thinks a persons well
being is far more important than what I think about their
experience. You are entitled to disagree with that statment,
John...I have no problem with that.  But, If I need emotional
support and help in understanding a traumatic experience, I
don't think I would call you, since "getting to the bottome of
the case," appears to be more important to you than my welfare.
<g>

>How amazingly patronizing! So we should censor our disscussions
>to accomodate a few shrinking violets who can't stand robust
>debate.

John, feel free to say anything you wish to about virtually
any issue you choose to discuss...however, if I were seeking
assistance in this medium, I would not appreciate a "to hell
with your feelings, you paranoid bastard, just give me the
facts;," attitude. <G>

>And this is where we get to the core of the problem. What are
>abduction researchers supposed to be doing? I and many others
>believe they should be conducting a scientific investigation, as
>objectively as possible, into a phenomenon which challenges our
>current understanding of the universe. Others, and it seems
>Michael Christol is one, believe that abduction "researchers"
>should not actually be doing any research, but should be
>unqualified backyard therapists who believe everything the
>abductee tells them. If we have to avoid the "slightest hint" of
>critical thinking we may as well pack up this list now and start
>discussing quilting patterns.

In the first place, "abduction researchers," are not to set
them- selves up as "experts," in this field...they are nothing
of the kind.  How can there be "experts," in a field whish is
not scientifically recognized as having merit???
Psudo-scientific experts, maybe, but experts???  Definitely not!
I don't necessarly see that the "abduction phenomen" "challenges
our current understanding of the universe."  How is that so? Why
are we "automatically" assuming that the abductors are NOT FROM
THIS PLANET???  I tend to take the position that, first we must
rule out some group of Military or Scientific operatives may be
using Drugs or Electronic hallucinationogenic techniques to
"plant these images" in the minds of these poor unfortunate
people who happen be the target of their abductions.


>A lot of "alleged" in that touching little tale... I'd like to
>have a little more detail from your research files before
>putting it anywhere above "unconfirmed rumour". Even if there is
>any element of truth in it, it clearly invoves a couple of
>seriously disturbed individuals who are probably not being
>helped by having every one of their irrational fears and
>fantasies "confirmed" by a eager-believer researcher.

Actually, John, I don't have to prove a thing to you...
I have the information...Now, if you want it, you go find
it the way I did...good old fashion snooping and work.

>I don't want to get involved in discussions about Vietnam (we've
>had that already on this list recently) but people _are_
>entitled to express contrary and controversial views about
>subjects that others have strong personal feelings about. The
>recent Iraq episode may be a necessary tactical strike against a
>dangerous despot, or it may be a diversionary tactic to draw
>attention away from Clinton's impeachment. I've heard both views
>expressed - are you saying that people are not allowed to
>discuss these issues just in case they upset someone who was
>involved in the conflict?

Actually, John, you don't have to get involved in a discussion
with me at all...If you wish to tone down you opinions a step or
two, I "might" chat in this email list with you again, but
otherwise, I will simply ignore your posts.  That is my
perrogrative... I am not going to involve myself in the "Clinton
Impeachment," affair...I will leave it to those whose job it is
to handle this case...Nor will I slander Him for his decision to
bomb Iraq, nor Britian for Helping the USA do so... By the same
token, I will not condem those other nations for their opinions
against the attack...I will let history be the judge, not me...

>If I'm convinced, rightly or wrongly, that I'm right (as most
>abductees seem to be) it douesn't bother me at all. It's only if
>there's an element of doubt in my mind does such criticism worry
>me. (Ask Jerome Clark!)

I don't even let that bother me...I have thick skin...I don't care
what anyone says...I have been at this for over 40 years, and I
have beat the bushes, dirtied my hands, and torn my clothes, so,
what someone who has not done that has to say, in no way concerns
me.

>And people should learn to respect open debate and critical thought.

Open debate, for the most part is retoric and repeated retoric
is just so much hot air....that is why I don't continue in long
term discussions in an email thread....One to three threads, and
I am usually done.  If the tone in reply is very negative, I
will not reply to it at all...I will simply let it die...

--
>John Rimmer
>Magonia Magazine,
a division of the P.L.A. Driftwood International Cartel
>www.magonia.demon.co.uk


REgards, Mike
Editor of Nothing, Owner of even less, and
for the most part, just hardheaded...<g>





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   Dec > Dec 21

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 19:53:06 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:35:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:55:33 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>>I will not make such a statment. I do not feel I have the right
>>>to challange a person's personal statment that they have had
>>>some type of physical experience, since I was not there to
>>>witness what happened. However, I can research their claims and
>>>then decide, based on what I find out, whether or not it is
>>>possible that what they claim could have happened....that is
>>>totally different than sitting at home and saying: "I don't
>>>believe..."

>Please excuse my stupidity, mam, but what the hell have you just
>done? Exactly what you say you wouldn't do, eh?

No, Jim Leanne did not write the above sentence... I wrote it in
response to her...<g>

REgards, Mike





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                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 19:46:21 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:36:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:03:19 -0500
>Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:13:46 -0500
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>Hello again, gentle list folk!

>This message will be in reply to the December 17th missive of
>Jan Aldrich but first I must make a few preliminary remarks.


>We should always keep in mind the fact that to my critics on
>this list I am a ufological nobody making wild and totally
>unsubstantiated charges. Please read that sentence again, and
>compare it with what has been happening on this list for the
>last several days. That is, my wild and unsubstantiated charges
>have brought down a veritable hurricane of abuse, a level of
>response seemingly far, far above that deserved by wild and
>unsubstantiated charges. Why has this been? Well, as my
>private mail has shown, there is reason for the reaction of my
>critics and those list readers with experience in this field
>know that full well. That's why I'm writing my book.

Please note, Mr. Levy, my comment were aim on/at the facts or
the "facts" of the matter and not you. You received no abuse
from here.

>So, let us consider Mr. Aldrich's December 17th comments. His
>remarks, which I will have to edit for space, will be proceeded
>by a single arrow:

>>It would be interesting to know just who this "reliable"
>>source was.

>No doubt it would and I could just provide that information to
>you for free. But in a long-established ufological tradition I
>am going to reserve that little tidbit for myself and perhaps
>the future readers of my book.

Well, how are we to make anything from this then?


Is this information from a "reliable source" or from
deduction. Perhaps you should see Hall's answer below.

>>During the 1960s and 1970s I visited NICAP a number of
>>times. I copied from the files and placed material in the
>>files. Pretty much I was given free rein to look at
>>whatever I pleased.

>I think this rather says it all, does it not? That is, shall we
>say that the security of these files was, er, suspect during the
>1960s and 1970s? I think that's a fair statement. Now, I ask
>you, if you were running NICAP (during the Keyhoe era) would you
>put your crown jewels into such a file? That is, there might be
>some pretty good material in there but, well, as for the very,
>very best -- that's going to be someplace else, isn't it! Donald
>Keyhoe himself noted that certain materials were segregated from
>the NICAP files. He also noted that these were so sensitive that
>they were kept in a safe.

There were plenty of jewels there and in CUFOS' files also. Not
everyone who showed up there was allowed into all the files
unsupervised. I was a NICAP support and still and deeply resent
this baseless accusation against the people there or the facts
deduced with only a minimal amount of research like this one:
"Mr. Hall has the REAL files of NICAP, the ones Donald Keyhoe
himself kept. . .in a safe, more on this file later."

And you called Hall to verify this when?

>Regarding NICAP files Donald Keyhoe had this to say
>in his Foreword to "Flying Saucers Top Secret" pp. 10-11.


> "If that resistance continues to block open hearings, [at this
>time Keyhoe was trying to obtain Congressional hearings on UFO
>secrecy - GA.] it is hoped that this book will bring sufficient
>public support to end the secrecy on this vitally important
>subject. The following chapters include all the important
>evidence presented to individual congressmen and committee
>chairmen, including details of the behind-the-scenes battle
>against censorship.

> As indicated in the text, the main points are backed by
>documentary evidence; this is available for inspection at the
>NICAP office in Washington, except for a few documents listed as
>confidential, which are certified as genuine by Board members
>and the Secretary of NICAP."

> Elsewhere Keyhoe notes that The NICAP confidential files
>included among other things copies of intelligence report
>extracts. [Flying Saucers Top Secret pp. 272-3]

You know if you check the UFO Evidence you will find several of
these. They also got a CIRVIS report that was unclassified. That
was quite a thrill to see one of those in the 1960s.

>The following concerns my recent post about the NICAP files
>turned over to CUFOS by Mr. Larsen:

>>After reading this post I called Richard Hall. . .who
>>confirmed that there was not much government material.

>My, my, how the wind does blow -- all the way to Washington! The
>Internet continues to amaze me, as does the fact that Mr. Hall
>has e-mail, something not widely known to readers of his column
>in UFO Magazine. As for the lack of government material in
>NICAP's files, the NUMBERS are not anywhere near as important as
>the CONTENT, something all good agents know from the cradle.
>That is, one would probably have had to pull only a very few
>items from that file to hugely vitiate
>its worth to someone like me.

You know, Mr. Alevy, this gratuitous comments about finding
intelligence agents under every bed seem to smacks of another
person who use to wave things around in his hands saying, "I
have in my hand a list..." Please tell us what the difference
is?

I talk to Richard Hall about once a week. If you look, I said "I
called," as in called on the telephone. However, Hall does also
have E-mail, but that is private, others in FUFOR communicate
for the Fund. When I called Hall it was on another matter.
However, I wanted to verify what I was writing in my post was
true. You might try to verify some of the things you say before
posting them, also.

>And isn't it the fact that Mr. Hall has, in his basement I
>believe, Keyhoe's private files? I wonder what government
>documents were there at the time those files came into Mr.
>Hall's possession, hm? The reason I ask this is because in a
>recent UFO Magazine column Mr. Hall, who has been around ufology
>since the Eisenhower administration, produced a list of
>ufology's great unanswered questions. Shall we say that document
>security/reliability/chain of custody issues were not included
>in that list of questions. . .when in fact they are at the heart
>of the burning issues surrounding ufology today -- as many list
>members are now seeing for
>the first time!

I can't fathom what is being said here. Please clarify. I will
say that Hall's whole house has his vast collection of UFO
material, including some of files Ted Bloecher, Isabel Davis,
James McDonald and a number of other people. This is a matter of
record. I posted this all over the Internet nearly a year ago.

When I was on my research trip I spent two weeks in using Hall's
basement as my base of operations. Each day I would go to the
National Archives or the Library of Congress and each night I
would come back and copy things from Hall's files until, I
couldn't keep my eye open any long. Then, drag myself to the
Archives. You ought to try a little research yourself some time,
Mr. Alevy, why the NY Public Library and Columbia University
have not been mined out of UFO material.

>Continuing with Mr. Aldrich, vis-a-vis NICAP's files:

>>Not everything was salvaged, however. Most of the
>>sighting files and significant correspondence were.

>Once again, readers should note the lawyerly wording here, which
>is so in vogue these days - salvage. This really is an admission
>of leakage, loss or shall we say the disappearance of files that
>could well have included the BEST of the information.

I loath lawyers. The NICAP files were in a wear house, at the
time, Hall and several others had a limited amount of time
salvage the material. Things like the library of UFO
publications, contactee material and paranormal and crackpot
files were left behind. The sighting files and correspondence
files were the main things they tried to get in the time
allowed. Did they possibly leave something important behind?
Undoubtedly.

Please notice that Mr. Alevy is completely silent on my test of
important documents in the NICAP files, the letters to and from
McDonald from Isabel Davis, Ted Bloecher, and Richard Hall.

>Folks, it is a fact that conclusions based on those files are
>hardly situated on solid bedrock. Too many hands have been in
>the cookie jar for far too long. And to indicate that NICAP went
>public with everything it got in the government document line
>is, well, off the mark, as anyone who has actually done research
>knows. That is,
>quoting Mr. Hall through Mr. Aldrich:

>>Mostly, if they got something that originated from the
>>government, NICAP took it to the media.

>This may have been true with some material but you have to
>realize that Keyhoe would have been out of business very soon if
>this was the actual policy followed with every document he was
>leaked. Mr. Aldrich would have us believe that Keyhoe was
>passing on intelligence report extracts to the media! As Keyhoe
>knew very well if you want to keep the flow coming you have to
>be discreet, very discreet, and keep much of this material in
>your private files, and Keyhoe demonstrates just this in his
>book.

Gee, do you think! Of course, the identifying details were cut
out of some of the material. In any case the amount of
government material was low.

>In conclusion, I quote Mr. Aldrich on Sherm Larsen:

>>Sherm Larsen was a good organizer, a moderately good UFO
>>investigator, and from his writings a rather naive person.

>It's Interesting that although I was accused of besmirching Mr.
>Larsen's record I am not the only one doing so -- as anyone who
>reads Mr. Aldrich's comment above can see. I have stated that
>Mr. Larsen was a member of the Army Counterintellligence Corps
>(CIC), a fact not in dispute, and that he was a professional. I
>also stated that I admired the intelligence based analysis
>Larsen contributed to the ufological literature. Judging from
>his comments above Mr. Aldrich doesn't need my help in
>besmirching Mr. Larsen's record in the UFO arena, and is doing
>that well enough on his own.

I don't see any besmirching of Larsen here. He was a nice guy
and good organizer. He was, after all, President of the Chicago
NICAP affiliate for years. He was not a deep thinker like Hall,
or a researcher like Gross, but he could organize people and
material. Wish he were around to help me organize mine.

CIC or intelligence doesn't cut any ice with me. I don't think
they are particularly smart or out of the ordinary. Larsen was
president of the Chicago NICAP affiliate. I was in the
NICAP*CONN the two affiliate communicated with each other. I am
sorry, Larsen was a nice fellow, he had lots of good ideas, but
he was not too keen on analyzing situations. The little
newsletter he edited prior to his involvement with CUFOS
contains hardly anything of note.


>I must particularly disagree with Mr. Aldrich characterizing Mr.
>Larsen's writings as "naive." Larsen was anything but that as
>his writings plainly show.

No, they plainly show that this guy's view was rather limited.
Again, not much in analytical department.

>I wonder if Mr. Aldrich is REALLY familiar with any of them? It
>is a pity that Mr. Larsen's friend, Jerry Clark, didn't cite any
>of his work in his encyclopedia. It is also sad that Mr.
>Aldrich, himself a former Army intelligence officer, would
>criticize Mr. Larsen's work as "naive". This leads me to reflect
>on the following well known quotation:

Wrong again, Mr. Alevy, I was an NCO in the Field Artillery. My
MOS's were 76Y30 Armorer and Supply clerk, 93F40 Field Artillery
Ballistic Meteorology Section Chief, 13W50 Senior Target
Acquisition NCO, 13Z50, Senior Artillery NCO. Not an
intelligence MOS among them. I did occupy the staff position of
Intelligence NCO and several times Acting S-2, however, I also
occupied the position of Assistant Adjutant, that doesn't make
me a admin/personnel specialist, and the position of Nuclear
Release Authentication Officer, that doesn't mean I was a
nuclear weapons specialist. With notable exceptions, I am
unimpressed with military intelligence especially on the
Operation Level. Seems to me they can't find their backsides
using both hands.

> "A man is known by his enemies."

>Now, this is often true. Let's just say that I'm proud of mine.
>And let me add that there is one large advantage to an enemy and
>that is that he can never betray you -- because you have never
>given him your trust.

>It's your friends that sell you down the river. Sherm who are
>your friends today?

Believe me, I am tired of people seeing intelligence operatives
behind every tree. And I am more than a little tired of people
accusing every one of being an intelligence operative.

Of course, I am a CIA operative, why none other than Capt. Bruce
Cathy identified me as such. I must have been the youngest CIA
agent on record. My next book will be "I Was a Teenage Secret
UFO Operative for the CIA UFO Disinformation Program." I wrote
to Cathy with a couple of question and before I knew it I was
accused by "a reliable source" of being a CIA agent.

>Gary Alevy

>P.S. Congratulations to Richard Hall on his fortieth anniversary
>in the field since joining NICAP.

--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
Telephone: (860) 546-9135


>From Richard Hall:

  I, too, would like to know who Mr. Alevy's alleged "reliable"
source is, because if that is the source of his totally
inaccurate statements or interpretations, he/she surely is
highly unreliable. I'll take his assertions one by one:

  (1) I have the real NICAP/Keyhoe files. Sorry; wish I did.
Mrs. Keyhoe allowed me to search through his desk and they
looked all over the house. We never succeeded in locating the
files that he kept somewhere in Luray. All that I was able to
retrieve was a smattering of his papers and manuscripts. They
included a few Air Force congressional liaison letters, and a
few duplicate Government documents such as JANAP 146, which I do
have on file and can be inspected. I also have a pretty good
notion of what files he kept in Luray, mostly for book-writing
purposes. There were no big, "secret" files of Government
documents. Jan Aldrich is right; we existed to disclose
Government documents, not to hide them.

  (2) The security of the NICAP files in my era was quite sound.
Trusted people like Jan had full access to all of the open
files. Of course, we kept some away from public inspection to
protect our sources. I usually had a lock file in my desk.
Again, there were no big caches of secret or otherwise
Government files, just an occasional letter or document from a
witness provided to us in confidence.

  (3) Mr. Alevy has read into Major Keyhoe's statements more
than is really there. I saw the certified documents and
participated in handling them. They were of the same variety as
cited above, and there was no large number of them. I would
guess that many or most have since been made public, but I am
not going to take the time to do an inventory of ancient
history. The Air Force intelligence excerpts were those provided
to Major Keyhoe by Al Chop and other Air Force people pre-NICAP.
Those and many more just like them are among the papers of the
Colorado UFO Project. I probably have some of them in my files
So what? Why all the mystification? And certainly there were no
bombshells of INFORMATION that we didn't release, as he seems to
be implying.

  (4) The Keyhoe "private files" I have are mostly records of
his writings and family, including his association with
Lindbergh. I have some fragments of the old NICAP files,
including some of his correspondence. No big secret cache. In
addition, I resent Mr. Alevy's insinuations that I would be a
party to suppressing important information.

  (5) To the best of my knowledge, NICAP did go public with
"everything it got in the government document line"; Jan
Aldrich, who obviously is much better informed than Mr.
Alevy, quoted me correctly. He also knows it to be true from
personal experience.

  Enough already with this kind of false rumor-mongering.

-- Richard Hall





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                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:18:47 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 00:13:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:03:19 -0500
>Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:13:46 -0500
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

Previously, Gary wrote:

>We should always keep in mind the fact that to my critics on
>this list I am a ufological nobody making wild and totally
>unsubstantiated charges. Please read that sentence again, and
>compare it with what has been happening on this list for the
>last several days. That is, my wild and unsubstantiated charges
>have brought down a veritable hurricane of abuse, a level of
>response seemingly far, far above that deserved by wild and
>unsubstantiated charges. Why has this been? Well, as my
>private mail has shown, there is reason for the reaction of my
>critics and those list readers with experience in this field
>know that full well.

(Sorry, ebk, for the following response but I just can't stand
it any more...)

Gary, what a bunch of crap!

You know, I had pretty much bowed out of this "discussion", if
you can call it such, not because I couldn't match wits with
your mental dexterity or your logic, but because you absolutely,
pathologically, uncontrollably refuse to stick with the topic at
hand or to answer one single question regarding the proof
required to back up your "research".

As readers of this List are aware, I (against all odds)
struggled to defend SETI against the wrath of ufologists
everywhere. With the possible exception of one reader, I got
absolutely no support whatsoever from the list. Did I cry
"foul"? No! Did I accuse everyone that disagreed with me of
being part of a conspiracy? Of course not!

Instead, I had a rollicking good time slugging it out with Jerry
and Doc and Jim and Greg and a host of others. We engaged in a
vigorous dialog; each having to take a slightly closer look at
the position we were defending and why.

THAT's what debate is supposed to be.

But what you offer as "discussion" is you asking questions of
others but answering none. What you offer as "research" is a
laundery list of accusations based on nothing more than
speculation. What your consider to be a "veritable hurricane of
abuse" is nothing more than intelligent people asking reasonable
questions.

Speaking of which, I can't help but notice that your mode of
operation is to simply avoid questions that you can't answer.
Very shrewed. Particularly, I've noticed that you have NEVER
responded to MY single question or, for that matter, even
acknowledged its existence.

I'm quite sure you had hoped that I had given up, since my one
single question is based on your own "research". In fact, I'd be
willing to bet that this one single question is the biggest
problem in logic that your house of cards is built upon. So,
just in case you didn't read the question the other four or five
times it has been posted, which MUST be the reason you haven't
answered, here it is again:

Ready?

Here goes...

Since (by your own findings) Larsen and Hynek NEVER told anyone,
not even their closet friends, what the "true nature" was
regarding their UFO work, then how can anyone - particularly you
- arrive at any conclusions regarding their personal or
professional lives without flat out guessing?

I know, I'm just adding to the hurricane of abuse by asking such
unfair questions.

You know, in the beginning, I was willing to give you the
benefit of the doubt. I, personally, could care less about
Larsen and Hynek. But I'll be damned if I'm going to stand by
and let you make accusations about members of this List just
because your logic is flawed and you've talked yourself into a
corner. There's no conspiracy, Gary. Your ego is in serious need
of deflating if you think that everyone on this List is intent
on discrediting you and bringing you down. The truth is that
your kind of "research" is a joke and everyone knows it.
Considering the lack of support by other List members, I
seriously doubt the veracity of your claim regarding your
private email.

In fact, I'll go further than that. I think you are lying. Since
you feel that I'm attacking you, already, why not make the crime
fit the accusation?

I never thought I see the day that I'd quote Ed Stewart, but the
term "intellectual dishonesty" fits you like a glove. I'm sure
your book is going great guns. It's easy to write when you don't
have to back up any claims.

Roger Evans





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              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:52:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 00:24:37 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:56 -0500
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>Hello All,

>Have you noticed that after posting a copy of an x-ray from an
>abductee that there have been absolutely no comments or remarks
>on it? (Other than Nick Balaskas)I posted some numbers based on an
>internal survey of the members of AIC in regard to questions about the
>ethnicity of those reporting abduction and nothing more has been
>posted on that thread either.

>In fact in every instance where something of substance was
>offered, it stopped those threads dead in their tracks. It's
>almost as if as long as it's just 'rap' and purely intellectual
>it's ok, people will post away with lots to say. But put some
>meat on the table, and the thread dies an abrupt and
>unceremonius death.

You noticed too.

>Apparently folks would rather just 'talk' about the subject in
>endless circles rather than deal with any facts that are being
>presented. I am going ahead and I will attempt to get the x-rays
>and other materials analysed. But I don't know of what value it
>would be to post any results to this list. Unless it's just rap,
>rap, and more rap, people don't seem very interested in anything
>tangible/factual.

We'll likely get the government we deserve too.

>I have been listening to people whine; "Show me some proof" for
>years on this list. But each and everytime an attempt is made to
>provide it everyone falls silent and the thread just dies.
>Armchair ufologists, all talk, no substance. Everytime I put up,
>everybody shuts up.

You can almost HEAR the shriveling genitalia!

>I don't know, what does that tell you?

We can dish it out but we can't take it? We all tend to
cowardice? We don't deserve the respect we demand? We're all
show and no go? Somebody should slap us and call us Susan? When
the going gets tough we don't have enough? Drunk, Fat, and
Stupid is no way to go through life?

>It speaks volumes to me.

And me. "Tell 'em Doctor."

>Disappointed in New York,

Doing a complement to that ringing chord down here in Dixie!

>John Velez, Webmaster IF-AIC
>________________________________________________

--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 21 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.






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              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:27:34 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:48:28 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:56 -0500
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>I have been listening to people whine; "Show me some proof" for
>years on this list. But each and everytime an attempt is made to
>provide it everyone falls silent and the thread just dies.
>Armchair ufologists, all talk, no substance. Everytime I put up,
>everybody shuts up.

Hey John, lighten up.

You asked us not to reproduce the picture, send it to our
mothers, sell it at auctions, whatever. Now, you're upset that
it didn't garner much interest. What did you expect us to do?
Determine it's authenticity using the picture you sent us?
Anyone could create a similar photo with a variety of programs.
It's an interesting picture, and nothing more.

Greg






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                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:01:11 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:50:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:33:12 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>>Obviously UFOs exist or else there wouldn't be evidence of them
>>in photographic form and expert testimony

>is bogus for two reasons. First off, photos (as we all know)
>mean nothing and are the furthest thing from proof in this day
>and age. Number two is the notion of "expert testimony". Expert
>on what? UFOs? I know of no expert that has seen a UFO up close
>and personal. Do you? And if you did, why would their testimony
>be more valid than someone that claimed to have been abducted?
>After all, the testimony of the abductee is about as first hand
>as your "expert's", maybe even more so.


Now hold on just a minute Roger...Are you saying all of theose
photos of me as a beautiful baby, are bogus???  That really
doesn't prove that I existed???

Darn...and all these years I have accepted my existence based on
bogus information that could easliy be faked...hmmm that means
all those photos of National Monuments, and the Seven Wonders Of
The World are probably a hoax also...WOW!  This means that we
have been had...

All of our histroy, especially that recorded since the invention
of the camera is all a Hoax!

Yes, we know that photos can be faked..but, I didn't think about
my birth and infancy being a Hoax!!!!

Ha, ha, ha....hang in there Roger...just having some good
natured fun...

REgards, Mike






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              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 23:22:23 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:53:47 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:56 -0500
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>Hello All,

<snip>

>In fact in every instance where something of substance was
>offered, it stopped those threads dead in their tracks. It's
>almost as if as long as it's just 'rap' and purely intellectual
>it's ok, people will post away with lots to say. But put some
>meat on the table, and the thread dies an abrupt and
>unceremonius death.

>Apparently folks would rather just 'talk' about the subject in
>endless circles rather than deal with any facts that are being
>presented.

<snip>

>Unless it's just rap, rap, and more rap, people don't seem very
>interested in anything tangible/factual.  I have been listening to
>people whine; "Show me some proof" for years on this list.
>But each and everytime an attempt is made to provide it everyone
>falls silent and the thread just dies. Armchair ufologists, all talk,
>no substance. Everytime I put up, everybody shuts up.

John, I hear you! Welcome to the Club! The marvelous work of
RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team) is posted week after
week by the various dedicated photo analysts on their own web
sites -- none of them with ANYTHING to sell! -- and with the
simple request to all to help them find the true ANSWERS to the
Roswell Riddle. And what is the response? Largely, the
extremists like KRandle and Dennis Stacy and Bob Shell just go
ballistic -- but offer NO assistance or suggestions. I am
getting the feeling that many ufologists are simply AFRAID to
look for the TRUTH! It just might NOT be what they in their
narrow vision already have seen!

>I don't know, what does that tell you?

I just keep wondering... and hoping for a more helpful response.

James Bond Johnson







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                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:51:21 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:59:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:03:19 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>Hello again, gentle list folk!

>This message will be in reply to the December 17th missive of
>Jan Aldrich but first I must make a few preliminary remarks.

<snip>

>It's your friends that sell you down the river. Sherm who are
>your friends today?

>Gary Alevy

>P.S. Congratulations to Richard Hall on his fortieth anniversary
>in the field since joining NICAP.

Gary,

You are too kind... Your sincerety leaves me breathless...

But I digress.

So Gary, level with us. What is this relentless derisive thread
really all about? Really, I want to know. Given, that you are
a reasonably intelligent, perceptive, eloquent person, you must
know in advance that most readers here will not agree with your
conjecture about and interpretations of the past and present
actions of the people you attack. Yet you persist in your
arguments. Do you really consider this a fair and acceptable
way to promote your upcoming book? Does this pernicious
mongering give you some additional gratuitous pleasure? Are we
unwitting test subjects for your tabloid promotions?

Am I being unfair in my characterization of your writing in this
thread? Simply, no. Nor am I being deceptive in my request. I
really want you to set aside your current style of discourse and
in some friendly manner tell my why you are writing this
material. I will accept most any explanation.

With a flourish, the orchestra pounds out the opening refrain of
the theme song. Rushing across the stage, I shove Cilla Black
into the pit. Throwing my arms wide, I turn to the audience and
belt out:

What's it all about...  Gary???

Bye... Ted..






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              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 00:22:20 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:02:46 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:56 -0500
>Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:09:01 -0500
>Subject: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

Previously, John wrote:

>Have you noticed that after posting a copy of an x-ray from an
>abductee that there have been absolutely no comments or remarks
>on it? (Other than Nick Balaskas)

<snip>

>In fact in every instance where something of substance was
>offered, it stopped those threads dead in their tracks. It's
>almost as if as long as it's just 'rap' and purely intellectual
>it's ok, people will post away with lots to say. But put some
>meat on the table, and the thread dies an abrupt and
>unceremonius death.

>Apparently folks would rather just 'talk' about the subject in
>endless circles rather than deal with any facts that are being
>presented. I am going ahead and I will attempt to get the x-rays
>and other materials analysed. But I don't know of what value it
>would be to post any results to this list. Unless it's just rap,
>rap, and more rap, people don't seem very interested in anything
>tangible/factual.

>I have been listening to people whine; "Show me some proof" for
>years on this list. But each and everytime an attempt is made to
>provide it everyone falls silent and the thread just dies.
>Armchair ufologists, all talk, no substance. Everytime I put up,
>everybody shuts up.

>I don't know, what does that tell you?

>It speaks volumes to me.

John,

I know your intentions are honest. But the fact is that an X-ray
is just another photo, and not a very good one at that. I spent
several years as a medical illustrator at the University of
Texas Medical School in Houston. I can't tell you the number of
"bogus" or "gag" X-rays that were passed around. The objects
that seemed to be embeded ranged from patrolman's flashlights (I
won't mention where) to baseballs to coke bottles. If regular
UFO photos are easy to dummy-up, which they are, X-rays are even
easier to doctor.

Now, before you get bent out of shape, I'm not saying that your
friend's X-rays are bogus. But if he wants to prove his case,
analyzing something as vulnerable as an X-ray is not the way to
go about it. There's only one thing that will prove, beyond a
shadow of a doubt, his claims:

He needs to be examined by a pair of independent doctors.

If this guy won't let a professional document his physical
condition, then I see little to be learned from the X-ray.

At any rate, that's why I don't get all worked up over X-rays as
"proof"; they're not. A good beginning, perhaps, but hardly
concrete.

Best wishes,

Roger Evans





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               Mis-statement Made By 'Robert A. M. Stephens'?

From: Bob Soetebier <bikebob@mo.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 00:10:34 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:25:09 -0500
Subject: Mis-statement Made By 'Robert A. M. Stephens'?


I received the following e-mail (which I have anonymized)...


---------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:00:52 -0500
From: [xxxxxxxx]
To: bikebob <bikebob@mo.net>
Subject: Another Hoa(gs)?

Dear B-Bob--

I think you will want to check out the following URL v-e-r-y
carefully.

http://www.sightings.com/ufo2/STS48.htm

Especially go down about 2/3 of the page and check out the
question Peter Gersten poses to Robert S.

Then scrutinize the page in question.

http://www.lunaranomalies.com/czarnik.htm

[....]


--------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------


...and I did go and check out the articles at both of the
referenced URLs.  I will ONLY comment on the following
misstatement made by one 'Robert A. M. Stephens' in the article
found at this URL...

http://www.sightings.com/ufo2/STS48.htm


...here is that statement:


---------------------------------------------------------


The moon is a stationary stellar body. It does not rotate
on its axis as Earth. It revolves around the Earth, in a
stationary position, (another words, it keeps its 'face'
pointed at us at all times).


---------------------------------------------------------

 It was immediately obvious to me that the above statement was
in error.  The earth's moon most certainly DOES "rotate" on its
axis! As proof of that, here is a pertinent paragraph (about the
earth's moon) taken directly from page 6195 of the 1959 edition
of the "Funk & Wagnalls Standard Reference Encyclopedia", Vol.
17.  {I would suspect that the Moon's orbital mechanics have not
significantly changed in the interim years.} :


The moon completes a rotation about the earth in almost the same
period of time that it takes to complete a revolution about its
own axis. As a result a portion comprising about one half of the
moon's surface is never turned toward the earth. If the moon's
motions were entirely regular, the "dark side of the moon" would
comprise a full half of its surface, but small irregularities in
the motions expose an additional 9 percent of the surface. The
irregularities, called 'librations', arise from a difference in
the moon's periods of rotation and revolution and a difference
between the planes of rotation and revolution.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------


Others may decide to further investigate other claims made by
Mr. Stephens.  Personally, that is something that I do NOT
intend to get "in the middle of".

If any of you do have anything further to add along those lines,
please do NOT send them to me asking ME to send them along to
others. If you want your comments/information passed along to
others, then please send them DIRECTLY to them.  (If you wish,
you may "Cc" me, too.)


Take care,


Bob Soetebier

St. Louis County, Missouri







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              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate <devilsad@ksinc.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 01:00:23 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:35:12 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:56 -0500
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>Hello All,

>Have you noticed that after posting a copy of an x-ray from an
>abductee that there have been absolutely no comments or remarks
>on it? (Other than Nick Balaskas)


John,

Proudly considering myself to be of the "show me/fence sitters"
group, I thought I'd pop in a quick reply. Certainly the .jpg
image you sent out to the list was interesting, but I don't know
what sort of reaction you expect. I am not in any way
discounting it, but just getting an email with an attachment of
what appears to be an xray with an odd ..._something_ on
it....what can I say about this? Especially when you made sure
to mention several times that you don't want anyone on the list
to reproduce it in any way ("might someone be building a book
around this one?" he says with a grin). Have you had luck with
finding anyone who can help with _documented_ analysis? In the
meantime, all the rest of us could do would be to discuss what
is (at this point) just and image via email and secondhand info.
As I'm sure you can understand, until I see more data, it's not
worth the trouble.

All I can say is that it looks intriguing, but at this point,
what else do you expect from anyone who is genuinely attempting
to be objective about it? An immediate proclaimation of it
being a fraud or a genuiiine ET object of some sort? I'd be
very suspect of either at such an early stage. I pull a
(longish) quote from your message with which the image was sent
out.


>See for yourself. I have attached a copy of one of the x-rays.
>It is not to be reposted/copied/republished in any way, shape,
>or form. The individual wishes to remain anonymous and the x-ray
>is his private property and a part of his medical record. If
>this gets reposted it'll be the last time I share anything of an
>evidential nature in this forum.

>The x-ray -clearly- shows a cylindrical object (embedded) -in-
>the persons spinal column. One of the physicians I showed it to
>was my personal family doctor. (Internist) He was clearly
>shocked at what he saw and his first comment was, "I have never
>seen anything like that. How did that get in there?"

>When I told him that the person claims that it was placed there
>by "aliens" during an abduction on board a UFO, he asked me if
>he could keep them for a couple of weeks so that he could show
>them to some collegues at the Hospital he is associated with.
>Upon my follow up visit two weeks later he returned them to me
>and informed me that everyone he showed them to were stumped. No
>one had ever seen anything like it,- they could not explain how
>it could have gotten in there without killing or paralysing him-
>and none of them knew what the object was. They were all in
>accord that the object clearly appeared to be
>artificial/manufactured. I asked him if there is anything
>similar (hardware) used by surgeons and he told me no. He knows
>what all the screws and plates and devices they put into peoples
>bodies looks like on an x-ray. They had never seen anything like
>it.

>I have shown them to two other physicians and one radiologist
>that specialises in reading neurological x-rays and they all
>said the same thing my doctor said; they'd never seen anything
>like it. We have more. There is just no one -reputable/qualified
>to take them to for further investigation and analysis. It's
>frustrating as hell. I'd like to have the stuff verified one way
>or the other just so I can stuff it under the noses of those who
>insist that there is -no- physical evidence for abductions

Please dont misunderstand me, John. I am always willing to look
at possible evidence, but then again, am I, and is everyone else
on the list, expected to just take your "personal doctor's" and
"two other doctors and one radiologist's" (undocumented as far
as I can see) opinions as evidence that this thing is an actual
object that has been implanted inside this person? Are these
doctors "on the record" regarding their opinions on this object?
Too good and clean to be true;-)

As far as there being no one reputable or qualified to do
further analysis - get some documented opinions from these
doctors and then I'll bet you'll have an immediate challenge
from half the "debunkers" in the world who will be willing to
pay for any sort of analysis that can be done by an impartial
party. And if not, hell, I'll whip out my phonebook and my Visa
and try to help out myself, or at least make a few calls;-).
have you had no luck in finding anyone who can be of assistance
in getting an analysis done?

But you also seem to suggest that for some reason the
fencesitters or the skeptics should be _responsible_ for the
doctor bills of every person who thinks they have some sort of
evidence of an abduction. this I don't understand. Yes, I've
always said "show me", but I dont recall ever saying "if think
you have an unexplained bruise, a lump on your toe, or anything
else you think might be evidence, feel free to take my checkbook
to the doctor of your choice." Sure, some of the CSICOP fellows
have thier own lil challenges out there which make for good TV
fodder, but where is the Intruders Foundation, or MUFON, etc,
etc? You accuse those of us in the middle of not being willing
to "put up," but I never knew that was part of my job
responsibilities (and I definitely dont get paid enuff for
it;-)). Seems to me that both the anti, and pro, abduction
groups who wish to prove that they are right and the other guys
are wrong should do it themselves.

<snip>

>I have been listening to people whine; "Show me some proof" for
>years on this list. But each and everytime an attempt is made to
>provide it everyone falls silent and the thread just dies.
>Armchair ufologists, all talk, no substance. Everytime I put up,
>everybody shuts up.

Do I detect the suggestion that everyone who tries to be
objective is simply an underground skeptic and that any "sane
person" already knows the answers and therefore wouldnt dare ask
"wheres the proof?"

John, yes you did "put up," but sorry to say that I hardly think
those of us who are "on the middle of the fence" are sitting
around with our mouths agape at this undeniable evidence. we're
just waiting to see if anything of substance ever comes of it.

Best,

Tim Brigham



)+(
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."
)+(






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   Dec > Dec 22

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 00:52:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:38:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


At the end of this posting you will find the only notice of the
passing of the co-founder of CUFOS published by CUFOS. This was
printed on the last page, in the right hand lowermost corner of
the IUR Spring 1997 pp. 32.

The notice only measures 2-3/4" by 3", barely a sixth of a page,
and the table of contents for the issue does not even mention
it. All in all, a rather ignoble treatment of an important
figure's passing.

There are a couple of notable points here:

1) The only mention made of Larsen's background is that he was
in the insurance business, a matter of no UFOlogical import. A
matter of UFOlogical import, namely that Larsen was a member of
the Army's Counterintelligence Corps (CIC) the organization that
handled UFO investigation and security for numerous UFO
investigations, e.g. Gorman incident, Roswell incident, is not
mentioned at all.

2) Didn't Jerry say that Larsen approached Hynek about using
Larsen's PEG as the skeleton for Hynek's "new" organization?

From the UFOMind UpDates Archive at:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/dec/m01-049.shtml

>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: 50s UFO History: Role Of Dr. James McDonald
>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 16:31:09 PST

<snip>

>Sherm had practical managerial skills, of which Allen possessed
>zero, and these skills did much to keep CUFOS functioning from
>day to day.  Allen didn't put him "in charge." He wanted to start
>a UFO organization but didn't want to go through the hassle of
>incorporation procedures. Sherm suggested to him that he
>simply take over Public Education Group (PEG), a local flying-
>saucer discussion group Sherm  had led for some years in the
>Chicago area; Allen agreed, insisting on the name Center for
>UFO Studies.  The unremarkable story, which no one who was
>there at the time disputes, is related by Larsen in "The Founding
>of CUFOS," IUR, May/June 1986, pp. 13-14.

Tsk, tsk, Jerry, for not doing your homework on a guy as
important as the co-founder of the organization that gave you
your leg up to ufological fame!

2) No mention is made of Larsen's history and achievements in
the field.  Larsen was quite an active researcher and drew upon
his skills as an intelligence officer to "seed" the field with
documents from his associate Dr. J. Allen Hynek.

3) These interesting oversights are important because they
demonstrate a pattern running through much of the work of
today's ufology.  That is, ufologists today seem to take great
pains NOT to include information of the type I have provided
above and there is a constant litany of disparagement of any
intelligence connections in the UFO Arena.  As you will see in
the quote below the truly important background and activities
are simply omitted.  That is, not to be seen is anything about
his military career or the type of writing and analysis he
performed, or the fact that he was said to be the prime mover in
the forming of CUFOS.

Some list readers might remember that Mr. Clark explained such
lacunae in the record of being due to the lack of time, that is
one only has one lifetime to write a three volume encyclopedia.
However, I think one has to agree that he should have had the
time to include what is reported above.  What a totally lame
excuse! In fact, the quote "lack of time" excuse is about the
lamest I have ever heard from a living author's mouth.

Readers of this list are asked to think about these obvious
facts and what they might mean.

Gary Alevy


The text of the notice in IUR Spring 1997 pp. 32
------------

Sherm Larsen

In December 1996 Sherman J. Larsen, former CUFOS board member,
died after a long illness. Sherm volunteered his time and
talents for many years, and we will miss him at CUFOS.

Larsen, who was born in Chicago, worked for most of his life in
the life-insurance industry. In 1965 he helped to found the
NICAP-Chicago affiliate and was elected its first president.
When all NICAP affiliates were disbanded because of
organizational problems at NICAP headquarters, Sherm founded the
Public Education Group (PEG) in 1971. When J. Allen Hynek
decided to form CUFOS in the fall of 1973, he asked Larsen if he
would be its first administrator. For the next 13 years, Larsen
performed a wide range of administrative and financial tasks. He
retired from the field in 1986.

---





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   Dec > Dec 22

                Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 06:41:58 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:42:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'


>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:59:51 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'

>Agreed. We'll all know more next week.

>Looking at all of the information that has been posted on this
>program I would suspect that Kiviat has an interview with the
>individual who came forward last year to confess that he had
>been involved in the "Tent Sequence". I don't think anyone has
>come forward to confess involvement in the production of the
>autopsy sequence, but would be glad if someone could put this
>matter to rest once and for all.

>Steve


When I talked to Kiviat several times about this new program,
this guy that Philip Mantle found is who he was going to use. I
don't think he has anything else.

BTW, I hear that someone asked me to clarify some things. I'm
very busy these days and simply can't read all the posts that
come in, so if someone wants specifics from me they need to send
me a private e-mail calling my attention to a specific post.

I knew that Ray was distancing himself from the tent footage
before the first Kiviat program. His explanation was that it
could not be verified by the cameraman. This was his stance all
along with regard to the tent footage. It was only after Philip
located the people involved in making the tent footage that Ray
came forward with the current story.

Bob






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   Dec > Dec 22

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 06:47:48 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:44:31 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:56 -0500
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer
>I don't know, what does that tell you?

>It speaks volumes to me.

>Disappointed in New York,

>John Velez, Webmaster IF-AIC


John,

I learned some time ago that many people are just in this
to play, and if it starts to look real they put their tails
between their legs and run under the porch to hide.

Back when I was trying to find a publisher for a serious book
on the AA film I was talking to one publisher on the phone.

This company publishes new age and occult books, so I thought
they would jump on it. The woman was VERY enthusiastic at
first, but the more I talked about it the less enthusiastic
she got.

Finally she said, "It sounds like this could be real!" I said
yes, it could be the real thing. "Oh, we wouldn't have anything
to do with anything like that," was her response.

The fact is that many "true believers" really don't believe
any of the stuff they spout, and if they are brought face to
face with reality it scares the hell out of them.

Children playing games.

Bob






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   Dec > Dec 22

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: tue, 22 dec 1998 07:02:29 est
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:49:16 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:56 -0500
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>Have you noticed that after posting a copy of an x-ray from an
>abductee that there have been absolutely no comments or remarks
>on it? (Other than Nick Balaskas)

>I posted some numbers based on an internal survey of the members
>of AIC in regard to questions about the ethnicity of those
>reporting abduction and nothing more has been posted on that
>thread either.

<snip>

How about it all you UFO "Researchers." Is that what you all
think you are? How about you, Leanne Martin.... You bellied up
to the bar quicker than spit in a vacuum and "Demanded" PROOF!
Well.... here's some proof lady! Go for it?

You?

Hell no. You won't go!

But when it comes time to bitch and moan about "Where's
the Beef?" you all get on the bandwagon. Well, here's some
prime cuts. Anybody want some?

Do the words, "lilly livered cowards with big mouths and no
cahonees!" ring anybody's chimes?

I already volunteered to have my docs look at the merch. Now I
ask you, I'll pay the freight, you supply the docs, the
radiologist and their written credentials with CV to me.

Deal?

Any takers?

Write me privately.... I'll report the results of our
conversations on this venue and provide the results to EBK.

I'm waiting...

Jim Mortellaro





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   Dec > Dec 22

                         Kecksburg PA Newsclipping?

From: John Tenney <mainorg@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:09:03 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:16:57 -0500
Subject: Kecksburg PA Newsclipping?


The Daily Tribune
Royal Oak, Michigan
Friday, December 10, 1965


Expert Theory: Gemini (Natural Kind) Caused Sky Show

From Tribune Wires

Astronomers theorized today - in the absence of conclusive
information - that The dazzling orange-white light which flashed
across the northern United States Thursday may have been An
unusually bright meteor shower from the Gemini Constellation.

They pointed out that the Gemini shower - after which the United
States Gemini series of orbital flight was named - annually is
brightest this time of year.

But they acknowledge there were many unusual aspects to the
phenomena late Thursday afternoon which set off a wave of phone
calls to police, military authorities airports and newspapers.

Early speculation ranged from reports of plane crashes to guided
missile firings.

The Daily Tribune and all South Oakland and Macomb County police
and fire stations received a steady stream of inquires shortly
after the bright light flashed through the area about 4:40pm.

But Defense Department and private airline officials reported
today that all aircraft and missiles are accounted for.

An Air Force spokesman in Washington said shortly before noon
today that a search of a wooded area in southwestern
Pennsylvania where many small fires were reported turned up
nothing.

He said the Air Force has called off the search and in the
absence of any other explanation is classifying the fireball as
a "natural phenomena."

Still unexplained if the discovery in Lapeer County - just north
of Oakland - of two small stacks of shredded foil similar to
those thrown from military aircraft and missiles to confuse
enemy radar.

Deputy Sheriff Lenny Tolly said he found "about a peck" of the
shredded material in a swamp after receiving a telephone report
that something had crashed into the area.

Samples of the foil have been sent to the Air Force for
laboratory tests, he said.

Astronomer William Schultz of the Cranbrook Institute of
Science, Bloomfield Hills, and other astronomers across the
country, pointed out that the Earth is now entering the period
of the Geminid meteor shower.

It usually reaches its peak next Monday or Tuesday but lasts for
six days before and after the peak period, he said.

The shower is an annual affair when about 50 meteors an hour hit
the Earth�s atmosphere instead of the usual 6 or 7, he said.

The Geminid shower is so called because the meteors seem to be
radiating from the Constellation Gemini. Actually he said, it is
because the Earth in its orbit around the sun annually passes
through an area strewn with pieces of rock and metal which
probably are debris from an old comet.

Several pilots reported to the tower at Metropolitan Airport
that they saw a flash and heard an explosion.

"Some said they felt an explosion, saw a puff in the sky and saw
bits of metal falling" said Leo Wozniak, supervisor of the
Federal Aviation Agency at Metro Airport.

In South Oakland, Pleasant Ridge Police Chief John M. Connolly
said he saw a "big orange glow- like a bright light turned on in
the sky" passing from the southeast. He said it turned white and
left a vapor trail.

Connolly said an airplane passed a few seconds later and
estimated the flash was higher than the plane.

The U.S. Weather Bureau said the visibility ceiling was 26,000
feet Thursday afternoon.

Other reports came from residents in almost every South Oakland
and Macomb community.

Sightings were reported in at least 10 states - mostly in the
northeast - but including Idaho and California. The western
reports were later - about midnight.


submitted by
John E.L. Tenney
http://members.tripod.com/~mainorg
mainorg@yahoo.com






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   Dec > Dec 22

             Defence Department Docs Spotlight Canada's X-Files

From: Moira Scott <epona@interlog.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:29:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 23:25:18 -0500
Subject: Defence Department Docs Spotlight Canada's X-Files


The Windsor Star Tuesday, December 22, 1998

UFO Reports Shrouded In Mystery

Defence Department Documents Cast Spotlight On Canada's Own
X-Files

Jim Bronskill
For The Windsor Star

Several snowmobilers see a round yellowish light assume the
shape of a star.

It moves slowly westward, like a balloon on a string, then suddenly
disappears. .

A number of people witness a large triangle-shaped object pass
quickly above a Yukon lake under a full moon. It makes a loud
noise, but has no lights and leaves no vapour trail.

A Prairie family finds some of their cattle mutilated. A few
years later, they discover a two-metre crop circle in one of
their fields.

The mysterious stories are just a few of the reports from
people across the country who have encountered things they
simply could not explain.

The Defence Department has just released a batch of the
documents, known in military circles as CIRVIS reports, short
for Communications Instructions for Reporting Vital Intelligence
Sightings.

The names of the people who claimed to see the strange phenomena
have been deleted, but the memos provide intriguing glimpses of
the eerie episodes.

Some, like the "large greenish flare" seen over Northern Ontario
in 1997, can be fairly easily explained as meteors. But others
are more baffling.

Army Sgt. Clay Rankin remembers the spring day last year in
Tuktoyaktuk, N.W.T., when a local woman reported being followed
by two cone-shaped unidentified flying objects as she drove home
with four companions. "She seemed pretty sincere about it,"
Rankin recalled in an interview. "What it was, I'm not sure."

The official report says bright blue light shone from windows in
the twin objects as they moved through the Arctic sky about one
kilometre behind the car. "They were followed for approximately
15 minutes when contact was lost."  Rankin, 38, duly filed his
report with superiors at Canadian Forces Northern Area
Headquarters.

Still, he doubts the existence of extraterrestrial spacecraft.
"I've never seen one myself," said Rankin. "I'm not one of those
X-Files fans or anything like that."

A bizarre incident near Marmora, Ont., last February might have
made believers out of three people who saw white and orange
lights flying above the ice on Crowe Lake.

A similar sighting took place in Ottawa on a clear July evening.
Witnesses told the National Defence Operations Centre of a
display by four or five glowing objects that moved about
chaotically, "merging and separating at random" for almost an
hour before vanishing.

A woman in Coral Harbour, N.W.T., was starting her snowmobile
one morning last January when she gazed over the water and saw a
large blue ball and two, smaller red balls followed by sparkles.

"As the large ball got closer to me it picked up speed and the
colour changed from blue to red," she told the military. "As it
passed overhead it changed colours again from red to orange,
then to yellow, then headed up into the sky."

The report lists the incident as a possible "UFO/submarine
sighting."  Officials were at a loss, however, to explain the
June 1997 Yukon sighting of the black, triangle-shaped object
over Lake Laberge.

"A number of aircraft were in the area around the reported time,
but none remotely resembled the object's description."

---







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   Dec > Dec 22

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:12:09 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 23:43:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:18:47 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:03:19 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:13:46 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>Previously, Gary wrote:

>>We should always keep in mind the fact that to my critics on
>>this list I am a ufological nobody making wild and totally
>>unsubstantiated charges. Please read that sentence again, and
>>compare it with what has been happening on this list for the
>>last several days. That is, my wild and unsubstantiated charges
>>have brought down a veritable hurricane of abuse, a level of
>>response seemingly far, far above that deserved by wild and
>>unsubstantiated charges. Why has this been? Well, as my
>>private mail has shown, there is reason for the reaction of my
>>critics and those list readers with experience in this field
>>know that full well.

>(Sorry, ebk, for the following response but I just can't stand
>it any more...)

>Gary, what a bunch of crap!

>You know, I had pretty much bowed out of this "discussion", if
>you can call it such, not because I couldn't match wits with
>your mental dexterity or your logic, but because you absolutely,
>pathologically, uncontrollably refuse to stick with the topic at
>hand or to answer one single question regarding the proof
>required to back up your "research".

<snip>

>I never thought I see the day that I'd quote Ed Stewart, but the
>term "intellectual dishonesty" fits you like a glove. I'm sure
>your book is going great guns. It's easy to write when you don't
>have to back up any claims.


Roger (and, of course, List)),

That's exactly how annoying it is trying to talk
fact/science/data with some of the 'abductee/contactee' listers.
The more frustrating thing for you is that in this argument the
other side is too good at dodging the question/s. In my argument
("Return to the Herd" thread) it basicly boils down to the other
side being too close to the subject matter - too subjective,
with an understandable barrier against objectivity. It is
undeniably a touchy matter for them (their 'knowing' that they
have been abducted) and rightly so, yet in the name research for
the greater good, to help us all understand their plight, the
request for verifiable proof brings on the histrionics.

What you have asked for is proof of this author's claims and
what I have asked for is proof of 'abductees' claims. Neither
request is out of order, illogical or even denigratory, yet
those of whom we have asked have become over-defensive,
obdurate, even more illogical, and, strangely, showed real
offense that we dared to act as genuine researchers and search
for truth.

What I find hard to fathom, too, is the impression from the
other parties that I had attacked them (the true grammatical
structure of my text and its logic flow having escaped them
[there seems to be a problem with North Americans and grammar).
They seemed not too interested in asking me the obvious, for I
had not declared it, "do I believe that any alien intelligence/s
may have abducted humans for any  particular purpose?"

My answer is also in the obvious, to wit - I have no genuine way
of knowing as there are no _verifiable_ data to which I can
refer. Hence my 'bullying' request for the data/science/facts
and statements of any relavent research.

I have absolutely no doubt that the 'genuine abductees' (not in
it for the dollar/quid/yen, miscellaneous scam or movie deal)
are absolutely positively genuine in their beliefs. I have no
way of knowing whether their described experiences are
actualities, still, after all the heat and expended ammunition I
am no closer to a resolution save a very dubious X-ray image
that has been recently posted - oh, what we could ask of it, yet
only get ourselves into trouble for, on this list!

Let's be devils shall we?

OK here goes . . . .

Is it the only X-ray?

If so why?

What required the X-ray being taken? (Symptoms etc.)

It does appear, from a cursory glance, to the be locking clasp
of a 'string' type necklace widely available of Asiatic
manufacture. The one X-ray frame begs the question "Why were the
appropriate, and obviously required, X-rays not sequenced and
submitted?" That is the left lateral, right lateral and frontal
views - possibly also from the cranial view?

What is the determination of a neurosurgeon apropo the removal
of the device if it is in fact embedded in the spinal column
(must be verifiable!).

What tests (and where are the verifiable results) were performed
on this individual to ascertain the effect of this supposed
'implant' on their person?

Shall I go on (there seem, seriously, too many to ask . . .)

Roger, good luck in your search for _verifiable truths_ as it
seems a very hard road to hoe.  I am on the eve of 3.5 weeks of
annual leave and near the point of not givin' a fig (in the Oz
vernacular) as to how this thread ends [yawning vacuously] yet
really caring that logic is served (and a true answer is found)
{I feel about as dexterous as the pig  (yes that one) from the
Babe movies).

Regards,
Leanne  ];-)







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   Dec > Dec 23

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:29:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 00:09:47 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:56 -0500
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

<snip>

>In fact in every instance where something of substance was
>offered, it stopped those threads dead in their tracks. It's
>almost as if as long as it's just 'rap' and purely intellectual
>it's ok, people will post away with lots to say. But put some
>meat on the table, and the thread dies an abrupt and
>unceremonius death.

>Apparently folks would rather just 'talk' about the subject in
>endless circles rather than deal with any facts that are being
>presented. I am going ahead and I will attempt to get the x-rays
>and other materials analysed. But I don't know of what value it
>would be to post any results to this list. Unless it's just rap,
>rap, and more rap, people don't seem very interested in anything
>tangible/factual.

John,

Silence doesn't only kill threads, it also kills threaders.

I might say you were lucky enough to get some feedback when you
talked about x-rays.  Over that, all we can do is sit back and
wait for the developments with Nick.

As for myself, I issued a post on December 17 in "Re:
Abductions: Return to the Herd".  Although I don't have
credentials in ufology - and God knows from what I see around it
seems to be more of burden or a 3-foot club than anything else -
I thought my few observations on the abduction phenomena would
at least scratch the imagination of other posters.  But, no,
they chose to keep going at each other's throats, thus following
the Laws of Humandynamics where systems tend to a maximum
disorder for a minimum of energy.

Never heard a peep from anyone.

Yes, the silence was deafening.  And revealing.

If you have any doubts on the pertinence of the questions,
please feel free to read what I said and explain the silence.

Otherwise, just trash this.

Serge Salvaille


***************
From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:23:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:14:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:34:29 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:19:02 PST

>>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 22:42:56 +0000
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

> What leads you to believe that the
>phenom doesn't exist.

>Is it that you do not believe in life beyond earth? Or, perhaps
>you do not believe such a phenom is possible at all!?  Do you
>believe that aliens have visited us?  Or do you believe this
>too, is a figment of an overactive imagination.  Perhaps that
>morsel of undigested beef.


Jim, Leanne and Roger,

Allow the intrusion.

Reality of the abduction phenomenon?

Not sure, well must be, but rather not think about.  Main
reason: the nature of the data.

With UFOs, it is possible to find some documentation on the most
interesting cases: more than newspaper articles, we get
witnesses, researchers, investigations, sometimes official
correspondence, maybe radar data and... debunking.  The UFO
phenomena is some pretty large collection of evidence which will
interest the truly scientific and artistic mind.  Hard to turn
your back on the story of the millennium.

Like most relatively solid subject, UFOs have their classics to
which you tend to refer to: Keyhoe wrote this... Hynek said
that... some FBI documents mention... a CIA memorandum states...
With all the stuff there is, most readers usually know what
someone is talking about even when - and that is too often very
unfortunate - there are no references in the texts which would
bring them closer to scientific communications.

What about abductions?

There is a big problem with abductions.

I don't go for "extraordinary claims need extraordinary
evidence", but abductions, as UFOs, must be supported in some
way with something else than the ubiquitous "it happened to me".
More than anecdotal evidence must come into view.  We are in
dear need of solid grounds.

How many times have we heard "they have been sticking things up
people's nose"?  Well, where is the "thing"?  If you can't show
it, at least you have to come up with some serious reason why.
(From Clark's UFO book pp. 4-5, 37% of 103 abductions cases in
1987 and 45% of 1700 in 1995 report implant insertion or removal
- my math give me 803 people).

Have fetus removals ever been medically certified?  Is there any
protocol in any hospital for someone claiming to have been
abducted?  What if the position of the FBI on the subject: ain't
kidnapping a federal crime?  Any CIA documents?

We are long due for a more structured approach of the
phenomenon.  Not that this should be an easy task.  And I even
wonder if it his possible.

My first pick would be FOIA and some politician kicking: that
should be a relatively cheap way to have confirmation that it is
being taken seriously by the authorities.

More later, since a bounty will probably be put on my head.

***************





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   Dec > Dec 23

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 12:21:13 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 00:12:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 00:52:39 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

Hi, all those shaking in fear at the Sinister Conspiracy,

>No mention is made of Larsen's history and achievements in
>the field.  Larsen was quite an active researcher and drew upon
>his skills as an intelligence officer to "seed" the field with
>documents from his associate Dr. J. Allen Hynek.

Not to sound like a stuck record, Gary, but where's your
evidence?  I look forward to your zillionth avoidance of this
simple question, or for your yet more hints that all those
who've been asking that question are, like Sherm Larsen, agents
of the Sinister Conspiracy.

>These interesting oversights are important because they
>demonstrate a pattern running through much of the work of
>today's ufology.  That is, ufologists today seem to take great
>pains NOT to include information of the type I have provided

>above and there is a constant litany of disparagement of any
>intelligence connections in the UFO Arena.  As you will see in
>the quote below the truly important background and activities
>are simply omitted.  That is, not to be seen is anything about
>his military career or the type of writing and analysis he
>performed, or the fact that he was said to be the prime mover in
>the forming of CUFOS.

>Some list readers might remember that Mr. Clark explained such
>lacunae in the record of being due to the lack of time, that is
>one only has one lifetime to write a three volume encyclopedia.
>However, I think one has to agree that he should have had the
>time to include what is reported above.  What a totally lame
>excuse! In fact, the quote "lack of time" excuse is about the
>lamest I have ever heard from a living author's mouth.

Please cite chapter and verse documenting your assertion that I
did not write more about Sherm Larsen because of "lack of time."

Well, to be honest, that's a purely rhetorical challenge.  Since
I never said any such thing and you can't provide the evidence,
I'll tell you why I didn't write more about Larsen than I did:
because there was nothing of consequence more to say about him.
Ironically, in your many substanceless (and ever funnier and
more paranoid) postings, you've proved my point.

To repeat, (1) you have yet to demonstrate the relevance of
Sherm's World War II service record (shared by thousands of
other veterans) to anything in his subsequent career in ufology.
And (2) you have yet to demonstrate, contrary to the view of
everybody who knew him (as, let me repeat, you did not), that he
was a brilliant thinker on UFO issues.  All you have provided is
a single paper, which is simply a recycling of the sorts of
NICAPian views many ufologists of Sherm's generation held.

>The text of the notice in IUR Spring 1997 pp. 32

>Sherm Larsen

>In December 1996 Sherman J. Larsen, former CUFOS board member,
>died after a long illness. Sherm volunteered his time and
>talents for many years, and we will miss him at CUFOS.

>Larsen, who was born in Chicago, worked for most of his life in
>the life-insurance industry. In 1965 he helped to found the
>NICAP-Chicago affiliate and was elected its first president.
>When all NICAP affiliates were disbanded because of
>organizational problems at NICAP headquarters, Sherm founded the
>Public Education Group (PEG) in 1971. When J. Allen Hynek
>decided to form CUFOS in the fall of 1973, he asked Larsen if he
>would be its first administrator. For the next 13 years, Larsen
>performed a wide range of administrative and financial tasks. He
>retired from the field in 1986.

I didn't write the above, but I can tell the rest of you that
it's a fair summation of Larsen's career in the field.  Besides
the fact that Sherm was an often genial character, there is
really not much more to say.  The writer of the above tactfully
chose not to mention the unfortunate ill feeling that caused the
rupture between Larsen and the rest of the CUFOS board over the
latter's decision to move the office from the suburbs to the
city of Chicago.  There would, of course, have been no point in
dredging up such bad memories in an obit meant to respect the
man's memory.  As I've said earlier, there was no contact
between Sherm and CUFOS after he left.  We didn't even know he'd
died till some weeks after his death.

Sherm should be remembered as a dedicated, hard-

working guy who helped found CUFOS and kept it functioning from
day to day after Allen Hynek left for Arizona.  Anything else is
just fantasy, as seems apparent now to just about everybody
except Gary and his (I suspect nonexistent) "reliable sources."

A final point:  Gary keeps mentioning a book he's allegedly
writing.  A word of warning, guy:  If you find a reputable
publisher, which doesn't seem likely given the sort of discourse
we've seen here, you will IMMEDIATELY be asked to provide
evidence and documentation for your sources.  I can assure you,
as an experienced author, that no reputable editor will be
satisfied with the sorts of empty statements you have made
repeatedly to your critics on this list.  If you can't do better
than that -- and I am certain that you can't -- better plan on
publishing the book yourself.

Jerry Clark







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   Dec > Dec 23

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:42:50 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 00:15:50 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: tue, 22 dec 1998 07:02:29 est
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


><snip>

>How about it all you UFO "Researchers." Is that what you all
>think you are? How about you, Leanne Martin.... You bellied up
>to the bar quicker than spit in a vacuum and "Demanded" PROOF!
>Well.... here's some proof lady! Go for it?

>You?

>Hell no. You won't go!

>But when it comes time to bitch and moan about "Where's
>the Beef?" you all get on the bandwagon. Well, here's some
>prime cuts. Anybody want some?

>Do the words, "lilly livered cowards with big mouths and no
>cahonees!" ring anybody's chimes?

>I already volunteered to have my docs look at the merch. Now I
>ask you, I'll pay the freight, you supply the docs, the
>radiologist and their written credentials with CV to me.

>Deal?

>Any takers?

>Write me privately.... I'll report the results of our
>conversations on this venue and provide the results to EBK.

>I'm waiting...

At the risk of repeating suggestions I seem to recall being
made earlier, why don't you (Jim or John) contact Robert
Bigalow's group, The National Institute for Discvery Science
(http://www.accessnv.com/nids/)?  Based on what their page
says, they would seem to have the resources (financial and
professional -ie medical) to investigate such evidence.
Or if not, they could almost certainly point you in the
right direction.  Bigalow has deep pockets and seems to be
interested in such stuff.

Or contact the folks at the Stanford "Journal of Scientific
Exploration" (http://www.jse.com/JSE_Home.html).  They almost
certainly have contacts who might be willing to look at such
evidence.   Have these existing resources been contacted?

I see no need to start from scratch searching for folks to
analyze evidence when such organizations already provide
possible starting points.

-Brian Cuthbertson





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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 23

                 Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell

From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 17:45:22 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 00:21:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell


>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 20:55:00 -0600 (CST)
>From: Bob Soetebier <bikebob@mo.net>
>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell

<snip>

>Marc...and others...if my interpretation of Richard Hall's
>comments on/about Art Bell is correct, then Hall is essentially
>lamenting that by the media (and this includes Art Bell)
>spending much/most of its time highlighting the "sensational"
>(always a "ratings booster"...right?), then the much more
>credible cases end up being overshadowed. Such overshadowing,
>ufortunately, more times than not, is the norm.

<snip>

>Now comes "Bridges," which appears to me to be a highly worthy
>effort by the three founders, who have "been there," to cut
>across conventional lines and offer support to abductees who are
>in need of help and guidance.Their selflessness and willingness
>to reach out to help others, regardless of individual beliefs,
>is praiseworthy.

>More information on "Bridges" can be obtained by contacting:

>Daryl Stangl

>Email: stangld@aea15.k12.ia.us

Hi Bob & List,

Many thanx for the info.

It still doesn't change my support for Art Bell.

Who in the 'general public' is going to listen to you, me or any
other researcher? Its through people like Art that many
'average' people gets an interest in the subject of ufology to
start with. Then I guess its up to people like us to develop it;
come on I'm not into slagging people off just because they don't
believe what I do (despite what some might say about me). I'll
give anyone the benefit of the doubt until proved wrong. Art
Bell is doing a good job, there are a lot of people around with
a lot less sincere motives.... take a look at these first.

Also many thanx for the info on 'Bridges' whom I'll be in
contact with, an e-mail will do as attending a meeting
might be difficult  for this abductee as I live in London.

Happy Christmas All,

MarcBell





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   Dec > Dec 23

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:51:42 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 00:25:29 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


Just as a follow-up on the National Institute of Discovery
Science, please see their web page announcement:

    http://www.accessnv.com/nids/NIDS_Public_Ann.shtml

This sounds like an appeal for cases precisely like those that
John's X-ray image represents.

My 2 cents,

-Brian Cuthbertson





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   Dec > Dec 23

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:53:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 00:47:35 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:27:34 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>Hey John, lighten up.

>You asked us not to reproduce the picture, send it to our
>mothers, sell it at auctions, whatever. Now, you're upset that
>it didn't garner much interest. What did you expect us to do?
>Determine it's authenticity using the picture you sent us?
>Anyone could create a similar photo with a variety of programs.
>It's an interesting picture, and nothing more.

>Greg

Hello Greg, hi All,

There are several of these that came in at the same time so I'll
just respond to them all right here. First Greg St. Pierre.

Greg,

I'm not "upset" as much as disappointed. As for what I
"expected." I expected _and_got_ the attention of someone (Nick
Balaskas) who could put me in touch with (independant)
physicians or radiologists who would not only be willing to look
into the x-ray(s) and (other) materials, but to sign off on
reports of their findings (whether fer or agin) and allow us to
share them with all interested parties. All of that was
_clearly_ stated in the original posts.

As for what I "expected" the rest of the list members to do. I
asked them to respect the privacy of the individual in the
x-ray, not to repost or republish in any way, and to comment on
it if they wished. When Serge asked questions about it, I
thought the best way for all to understand would be to see it
for themselves. I have always been open and willing to share in
_all_ of my dealings on this list or anywhere else. I wanted the
members to see that; 1. An actual x-ray does exist, 2. So I
could get feedback/referals for further study and 3. So they
would have an interesting item for their own 'personal/private
archive. Nothing wrong with any of that Greg.

You ask me if I expected you or anyone else to be able to
determine the 'authenticity' of the x-ray based on what I had
sent. The suggestion is absurd. As _nothing of the  kind_ is
suggested anywhere in my original post, I can't imagine where
you got such a ridiculous reading on my "expectations."

Please Greg, (and others too) read what I write - not what
_you_ think I wrote. It'll eliminate a ton of misunderstanding
and unecessary bickering over non-existent issues.


>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:52:36 -0600
>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

John wrote:

>>Apparently folks would rather just 'talk' about the subject in
>>endless circles rather than deal with any facts that are being
>>presented. I am going ahead and I will attempt to get the x-rays
>>and other materials analysed. But I don't know of what value it
>>would be to post any results to this list. Unless it's just rap,
>>rap, and more rap, people don't seem very interested in anything
>>tangible/factual.

Alfred responds:

>We'll likely get the government we deserve too.

You're a pisser man. No BS, there are some are really good
people on this list. I'm not blowing smoke either. Over the
years I have exchanged private e-mail with many of the folks on
the list. Because of it we have gotten to know each other a
little. As I already said in a past post, there is always a
joker in the deck. But I'm not going to let 'a few' stop me from
sharing anything with the rest of the folks on the list. People
I know to be intelligent, fair, and openminded. I value that,
and them. When I post material such as the x-ray it is for
-their- edification that it is done. I'll deal with the few
'idiots' as they pop their pointy little heads above the fence.
<VBG> Love you man. Good luck with your efforts on John Fords
behalf. Christ Al, if someone should ever lock my ass up and put
me on a shelf, one of the few things that will keep me sane will
be the knowledge that I haven't been forgotten. That there are
good, decent people who care and are willing to fight on my
behalf. You are a modern Knight Alfred, a man of character,
principle, and honor. A rare bird indeed!

You go Al!

John ;-)


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 23:22:23 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

John wrote:

>>I don't know, what does that tell you?

James Bond Johnson responds:

>I just keep wondering... and hoping for a more helpful response.

Me too. Been a l-o-n-g one as well. <VBG> John

>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 00:22:20 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

Roger writes:

>I know your intentions are honest. But the fact is that an X-ray
>is just another photo, and not a very good one at that. I spent
>several years as a medical illustrator at the University of
>Texas Medical School in Houston. I can't tell you the number of
>"bogus" or "gag" X-rays that were passed around. The objects
>that seemed to be embeded ranged from patrolman's flashlights (I
>won't mention where) to baseballs to coke bottles. If regular
>UFO photos are easy to dummy-up, which they are, X-rays are even
>easier to doctor.

Roger if you read the original you'd know that finding and
"independant physician" who was willing to 'sign off' on his/her
own work -was the whole point- of the excersize.

>Now, before you get bent out of shape,

Funny, it's usually remarks just like that, that 'bend me out of
shape'. I don't "assume" that you're going to "get bent out of
shape" by any of my comments, why do you "assume" that I will?
You don't know me well enough to make such an assessment. It's
just a bit condescending is all. Can you see that?


>I'm not saying that your
>friend's X-rays are bogus. But if he wants to prove his case,
>analyzing something as vulnerable as an X-ray is not the way to
>go about it. There's only one thing that will prove, beyond a
>shadow of a doubt, his claims:

>He needs to be examined by a pair of independent doctors.

Duh, it's what I'm trying to do Rog! I don't have a 'budget' for
this. I'm trying to get help to get this stuff analysed, by
-asking for help.- Capiche? <G>

>If this guy won't let a professional document his physical
>condition, then I see little to be learned from the X-ray.

Cheeses, Mary, and Joseph!

Again, (boy this gets annoying) if you _read_ the posts, I told
Nick Balaskas (who I'm still waiting to hear from! that I could
_assure the cooperation of the subject.- Please read the post
before commenting on it. It's not just "an x-ray." There's a
real flesh and blood human being behind those pictures who is
-deeply- concerned about this, and he is willing to cooperate
with qualified professionals in any way that he can.

We're all broke. So I asked for help.

Instead of having an intelligent discussion I find myself
explaining things that were already explained and addressing
negative and wholly manufactured comments such as the the one
you made above. Waste of time man.

>At any rate, that's why I don't get all worked up over X-rays
>as "proof"; they're not.

Never claimed they were. (?) Respond to what's written in the
posts! You open up your UpDates, read my post, then you say to
yourself; "Well gee, x-rays aren't conclusive proof" and then
you respond to me (as if) -I- had somehow implied or openly made
that claim. That was all just in your head Roger. It had nothing
to do with anything I claimed or said or wrote. It's comical
man. <G>

>A good beginning, perhaps, but hardly concrete.

The "concrete" appears to be between the ears and in (some) of
the buttocks of the assembled masses! <G>

("Is there _anybody_ out there?") Pink Floyd/The Wall

*Nick B: Still waiting to hear from you man. Need to make
arrangements for transfer and return of materials. E-mail me
asap please. [On vacation! --ebk]

Peace,

John Velez







________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________





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   Dec > Dec 23

                    Cattle Mutilations Apparently Solved!

From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:02:59 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 00:54:07 -0500
Subject: Cattle Mutilations Apparently Solved!


Festive greets listmembers,

Here at UFO Scotland we have just received an extremely
interesting document that may indeed unravel the mystery of the
Cattle Mutilation scenario.

A quote from the leaked government document fresh from a most
reliable Pentagon/MOD source follows below:

(Really important guy covered in most impressive shiny medals
says)

"This reminds me of my first theory involving the visitors being
unable to reproduce sufficient amounts of cranial hair restorer
due to gravitational fluctuations on their home world. This led
them to take to the stars after hearing (via an old aliens wives
tale) that Cattle here on Earth displayed remarkable hair
restoring properties, especially when the scalp was exposed to
repeated licking by the strange Earth creatures."

"This is also a contibutory factor as to why the cattle of Earth
should be found with their tongues etc missing.Commonly referred
to as Cattle Mutilations."

"The cored rectums were a big mistake to the aliens as they
thought that cows rectums may actually make a better
restoration, growing more hair when repeatedly rubbed along the
scalp and hairline. This proved to be a sad mis-calculation and
the Earth Government evicted the visitors due to unpleasant
odours associated with their prescence.Apparently technology
exchange was not enough of a jewel, for the Governments to put
up with the persistent foul odours portrayed by the Alien
negotiaters at meetings with the elite Military and Govermental
figures of MJ-12.5"

"I have since found out that my theory is only partially true.
The aliens apparently left Earth because of the bad haircuts
they were receiving by the military barbers at area-69. <LOL>"

Merry Christmas All!

Your friend,

           Dave Ledger (UFO Scotland)
--
==================================================================
If you see someone without a smile......give them one of yours :)
******************************************************************
Posted by: Dave Ledger  (mailto:UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk)
VISIT "UFO SCOTLAND" AT:
<A HREF="http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/index.htm">UFO
Scotland.</A>
ICQ pager      http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4851425
******************************************************************
THE TRUTH IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!..................BUT HOW FAR?
==================================================================





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   Dec > Dec 23

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 15:35:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 00:56:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 00:52:39 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>1) The only mention made of Larsen's background is that he was
>in the insurance business, a matter of no UFOlogical import. A
>matter of UFOlogical import, namely that Larsen was a member of
>the Army's Counterintelligence Corps (CIC) the organization that
>handled UFO investigation and security for numerous UFO
>investigations, e.g. Gorman incident, Roswell incident, is not
>mentioned at all.

Gary,

Let's get specific.

How long did Larsen serve in CIC, and precisely what did he do?

Greg Sandow






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 23

                       UFO ROUNDUP Volume 3, Number 51

From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 20:38:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 01:11:21 -0500
Subject:  UFO ROUNDUP Volume 3, Number 51


UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 3, Number 51
December 22, 1998
Editor: Joseph Trainor

UFOs INTERVENE IN OPERATION DESERT FOX

Large triangular UFOs were seen in Iraq and upstate New York
before and during Operation Desert Fox.

On Thursday, December 16, 1998, at 2:31 a.m. local time, "a
triangle-shaped pattern of lights" appeared over downtown
Baghdad and was picked up by CNN's night-vision video camera.
The lights hovered in position and moved slowly to the right, as
Iraqi anti-aircraft tracer fire streaked away into the night.

The scene appeared on CNN's live broadcast, which aired in the
USA at 6:31 p.m. Eastern time, Wednesday, December 15.

According to ufologist Ignatius Graffeo, "I did see a triangular
formation of lights moving very slowly at about" 12:55 a.m.
Baghdad time that Thursday "on an NBC news report of the
bombing...The light was steady, and it was definite and very
striking." He described it as "a V-shaped formation like the one
at Phoenix," Arizona on March 13, 1997.

The UFO "was against a black night sky and very different from
the 'greenish' tracer fire moving across the sky, which did not
hold their position for any length of time."

According to the Boston Herald, Fort Drum, the U.S. Army post in
upstate New York, was a staging area for the four-day Operation
Desert Fox. The Herald reported, "Along with the additional air
assets, the Army is sending a battalion of light infantry troops
from Fort Drum, N.Y. and nuclear-biological-chemical experts
from several bases to watch for any attack by Iraq against
Kuwait and other neighbors in the region." (See the Boston,
Mass. Herald for December 17, 1998, "U.S. to pump up military
muscle," page 22.)

Three weeks ago, around November 30, 1998, MUFON New York
received reports of triangular UFO activity over Evan Mills,
N.Y. and nearby Perch Lake, just west of Fort Drum.

According to Larry Clark of MUFON New York, a woman living on
Perch Lake reported heavy UFO activity. "First there were
triangular craft that have appeared in the local sky. The woman
(witness) reported the sighting of a 'Pine Bush' triangle that
moved at treetop level and continued out over the lake before
disappearing."

"A teenager from the local Civil Air Patrol (CAP) told the woman
that they have also spotted a craft over Evan Mills...Within the
last few weeks, the woman has regularly observed a large bluish
light with a small red streak at its center." She had reportedly
seen the UFO "hovering for hours" over her property and a large
undeveloped tract of land nearby.

Evan Mills is on Highway 37 approximately 75 miles (125
kilometers) north of Syracuse, N.Y. (Many thanks to Errol
Bruce-Knapp, Ignatius Graffeo, and MUFON Eastern director George
A. Filer for the news items.)


VIRGIN MARY PREDICTED ALLIED AIR STRIKE

On Sunday, December 13, 1998, Patricia Mundorf, a Roman Catholic
seeress who lives in Phoenix, Arizona, claimed that she had just
been visited by an apparition of the Virgin Mary (also known to
Catholics as the Blessed Mother--J.T.). The apparation warned
Mundorf that an air attack against Baghdad was imminent.

According to Ms. Mundorf, Mary said, "The United States will
attack Iraq. My children, I have warned you of this conflict.
The Red countries will not back you on this, and now you will
face the greatest possibility of nuclear and bacterial war on
your land."

Strangely enough, Ms. Mundorf experienced her Marian vision
three hours before President William Jefferson Clinton ordered
the attack. According to columnist Robert Novak, the president
decided to launch Operation Desert Fox on Sunday while flying
home from the Middle East. (See the Boston, Mass. Herald for
December 22, 1998)

(Editor's Comment: I guess that means the former Miriam
bat-Joachim is not a Democrat.)


TRIANGULAR UFOs SPOTTED IN SOUTHERN SPAIN

On Sunday, December 13, 1998, at 1:40 a.m., a triangular
formation of red and white lights was seen passing over the
small town of El Marche, Andalucia province, Spain, located 55
kilometers (33 miles) east of Malaga.

According to Antonio Salinas of Socidedad de Investigaciones
Biofisicas (S.I.B.), "The formation of lights was flying very
slowly. The witnesses had them in view for ten minutes. All of
the bright lights moved in tandem, as a formation with a single
structure, which itself was invisible."

"The UFOs were flying to the northeast, on a bearing of 060
degrees. The object appeared to have come from the southwest in
a straight line, from bearing 280 degrees and the
(Mediterranean) sea."

(Editor's Comment: With this flight path, the UFO formation
would have come from Ceuta, Morocco.)

At 2:15 a.m., a second formation of lights appeared over
Frigiliana, near El Marche, where they were seen by gas station
attendant Miguel Armijo. He described the UFO as "red lights
going at a very slow velocity."

The sketch Armijo gave to S.I.B. showed this array of lights:

          * * * 0 0 0

At 3:40 a.m., two triangular light formations were seen by
Spanish policemen in Torrox, a town of Andalucia about 70
kilometers (42 miles) east of Malaga. Officer Gregorio Cabello
Algan of the Guardia Civil (Spain's national police--J.T.) said
he saw "a formation of three bright red lights."

Officer Rafael Gonzalez Mora of Torrox's municipal police said
he saw "a formation of white lights. Two minutes later, a second
formation of red lights crossed the sky."

Here are sketches of the UFOs they observed. The first looks
very much like the "Lubbock Lights" of 1952.



El Marche and Torrox are located on Spain's southern coast about
300 kilometers (180 miles) south of Madrid.

The sightings were reported in local newspapers and on the TV
news program Andalucia Directo, Canal Sur (Channel South) on
Tuesday, December 15, 1998. (Muchas gracias a Antonio Salinas de
S.I.B. para esas noticias. See also the Spanish newspaper Diario
for December 15, 1998, "Vecinos de El Marche aseguran haber
avistado un OVNI sobrevolar la costa.")


UFO SIGHTINGS CONTINUE IN NORTHERN ITALY

On November 7, 1998, at about 8 p.m., a couple in Casalmaggiore,
a town near Cremona, 140 kilometers (84 miles) southeast of
Milano (Milan), "observed a white sphere, luminous, much larger
than a star, that traversed the sky... The same object, and a
similar one, appeared before two gentlemen at the Teatro Regio
in Parma, around midnight."

Parma is 125 kilometers (75 miles) southeast of Milano.

On Saturday, December 5, 1998, "a green disc measuring 20
centimeters at arm's length was sighted near Castelbuttano. The
object had a definite shape and dropped down in a power dive.
The object did not leave any trail."

On Monday, December 7, 1998, at 11:05 p.m., "a motorist who was
driving toward Pavia," a city 75 kilometers (45 miles) south of
Milano, "had noticed in the sky a blob of light that speedily
ascended in a perpendicular trajectory, covering several hundred
meters of distance. The object appeared as a luminous piece of
yellowish-orange color. In one-tenth of a second, the UFO had
described a course toward the witnesses 'with a direction almost
perpendicular and at an incredible velocity."

The witness estimated that the sudden had "generated a force of
20 G's and 'nothing living could have survived such a furious
velocity.'"

Also on December 7, "a triangular blue light was seen flying
over the Piazza de Ferraris in central Genoa," a major port city
300 kilometers (180 miles) northwest of Rome, "at about 5 p.m."
(Grazie a Michaele Loda, Maria Elena Parodi e Alfredo Lissoni di
Centro Ufologico Nazionale, CUN, per questo rapporto.)


UFOs ON THE MOVE IN NORTHERN AUSTRALIA

On Sunday, December 13, 1998, at 2 a.m., a woman living in
Katherine, Northern Territory (N.T.) Australia reported sighting
"two tennis-sized red balls illuminating the sky."

"I think there is something going on out there," ufologist Keith
Douglass of Alice Springs, N.T. said, "I got the report from a
couple of different people saying they were about two or three
kilometers up in the sky at 2 a.m."

Katherine is located 960 kilometers (600 miles) north of Alice
Springs.

On Monday, December 14, 1998, at 2:10 a.m., witness Warwick S.
reported, "I had just gone outside to have a smoke and enjoy the
beautiful night/early morning" in Rapid Creek, N.T. "I said a
prayer, looked up and around the Milky Way... I saw a shooting
star, and then to my right, a flashing light approaching. At
first I thought it was a plane, as the Airport is not far away.
It flew past me, slowly observing me and letting me observe it.
It maintained the same speed (5 kilometers/hour) and then flew
out to sea."

Warwick estimated that the UFO was "20 meters up, lights were
blue, red, yellow and orange. It was ten minutes in view,"
adding that he felt "scared, excited, overwhelmed, maybe a bit
disappointed because they didn't stay to chat." (Many thanks to
Diane Harrison of UFO Network Australasia for this news story.)


CYLINDRICAL UFO FLIES OVER LONDON

On Thursday, December 16, 1998, at 9:05 a.m., David W., his wife
and two children were driving on Manthorpe Road, heading into
Brewery Road in London when they spotted a UFO.

"The sky was clear blue, with slightly patchy cloud near the
horizon," Dave reported, describing the UFO as "a solid white
cylinder, smooth but reflective surface with rounded edges, no
visible wings, markings or other appendages."

The UFO, he added, "flew like a slow-moving missile, travelling
'a level straight line' east to west, from Abbey Wood to central
London. My first thought was that the Iraqis were bombing
London!" (Many thanks to Marc Bell and Errol Bruce-Knapp for
this news story.)


WISCONSIN MAN SEES UFO OVER LAKE MICHIGAN

On Wednesday, December 16, 1998, at about 9 p.m., Mr.
Dornberger, 90, of Algoma, Wisconsin (population 3,353) "saw
something that he had never seen in his life before"--a luminous
UFO cavorting in the night sky over Lake Michigan.

Describing the object as "a very bright light," Dornberger
"could hardly believe his eyes as the large object darted around
the sky over the lake," performing "incredible maneuvers."

"At first I thought it might be a helicopter," he added, "but
after giving some thought to it," he decided that nothing
manmade could fly at such speed or perform such maneuvers. (Many
thanks to Rev. Billy Dee of UFOSSI for forwarding this news
story.)

(Editor's Note: Algoma is on Highway 42, approximately 38 miles
(60 kilometers) north of Manitowoc, Wis., the site of last
week's "weird critter" sighting. See UFO Roundup, volume 3,
number 50 for more details.)


DIAMOND-SHAPED UFO SEEN OVER THE ARIZONA DESERT

On Tuesday, December 1, 1998, at 9:30 p.m., Judi M. and her
husband were camped out near the little town of Why, Arizona
(population 47), which is on Highway 86 about 120 miles (192
kilometers) west of Tucson, when she encountered a UFO.

"It's a campground, so no light to speak of," Judi reported, "My
husband had just gone to sleep, and I was outside alone. I often
watch the stars from there because there's an absence of city
lights."

"Anyway, I viewed a large diamond-shaped object almost directly
overhead. The craft or lights were in a diamond shape, with
large lights all over, non-blinking. I didn't hear any engine
noise, just saw the lights moving slowly toward the west. It was
hard to judge the altitude of the craft. To me, it appeared as
large as a (Boeing) 747 while flying directly overhead at about
500 feet."

"There was a bright green light underneath and in the middle of
all the other lights...I then noticed another light trailing
behind the 'craft.' Hard to judge how far behind, but a
significant range, maybe a quarter of a mile, a red light,
non-blinking...The lights turned west and, to my surprise, made
a slow wide turn and came back toward me, but a little further
south of where I stood, about a mile or two."

"As the craft or lights were getting smaller, but still in plain
sight, I heard a jet engine--two, actually. Two jets (from the
local Barry Goldwater Air Force Base, I suppose) flew across the
sky, heading straight for the 'lights.' Now it got my attention.
Why were the jets behind them in such a big hurry?"

"Interesting, too, is the fact that the 'lights' were suddenly
no longer there, or at least they turned them off." She added
that the jets continued on that flight path for five minutes,
then turned back and headed back to base. (Email Interview)


UFOs LINKED TO A POWER FAILURE IN KENTUCKY

On Sunday, December 13, 1998, at 10:35 p.m., radio host Bill
Boshears of WLW-AM Radio, 770 on your dial, received a strange
call on his show, Sci-Zone.

Boshears said a caller phoned in a report about "a blue-colored
object descending from the sky in an area near Eastlake Mall" in
Batavia, Ohio (population 1,700), a town on Route 222 about 20
miles (32 kilometers) east of Cincinnati.

Forty minutes later, at 11:15 p.m., across the Ohio River in
northern Kentucky, a woman motorist spotted "a blue-colored
object over Hopeful-Church Road" near Florence, Ky (population
18,624).

"While traveling southbound on Hopeful-Church Road," she
reported, "I spotted a large triangular object that seemed to be
hovering. The object was composed of very prominent blue lights
which flashed or traced in a vertical manner."

The woman said she "almost struck the curb while looking at the
object." With her car engine running, she was unable to hear any
sound from the object. She added that she could make out "a
triangular structure" from the "skyglow" light from the metro
Cincinnati area and from the "partial luminescence caused by the
blue lights. The object departed at a low elevation to the
southeast."

On Monday, December 14, 1998, at 6 a.m., a 14-year-old boy in
Dry Ridge, Ky. (population 58) spotted "a blue-colored object
with flames." He added that the object was "big and circular
with blue flames" and was "thought to be going down or diving."

At 11 a.m., WLW reported a power blackout in Florence, Ky.

At 4 p.m., the woman witness "saw two black-clad helicopters in
the area" along Hopeful-Church Road where she had seen the UFO
the previous night.

On Wednesday, December 16, 1998, at 11:50 p.m., a 27-year-old
male witness spotted a UFO near his home in Fort Mitchell, Ky.
He said he noticed a "star-like object in the sky. From his
vantage point, he was looking to the east and was able to view
the star-like object at a distance, seemingly at a high
elevation to the northeast of Cincinnati."

"The object would dim and come back on again," he reported, "It
would dim and rekindle as if it were a candle struggling to stay
lit...The alleged object seemed to move from left to right, up
and down, as if it were 'sliding' through the sky. Wasn't an
airplane, wasn't a helicopter."

Florence, Ky. is on Interstate Highway I-75 about 11 miles (17
kilometers) south of Cincinnati. (Many thanks to Cincinnati UFO
researcher Kenny Young for this news story.)


UFO SIGHTED OVER LAKE ERIE

On Monday, December 14, 1998, at 6:30 p.m., a woman witness was
outdoors in Avonia, Pennsylvania (population 1,366), a small
town 10 miles (16 kilometers) west of Erie, Pa, and about one
mile south of Lake Erie, when she saw a UFO.

She was "unloading some items from her car when she was startled
to see a bright white light with a tail that appeared to pass
directly over her head. The object was moving from north to
south, and no sound was apparent."

"The object continued to move to a distance of about 30 feet"
from the witness "and stopped directly above the roof of my
house. The object then appeared as a solid, real white light,
and it was motionless. It then began a pattern of blinking off,
then blinking on--at about one-second intervals. I became
frightened at that point and ran inside, and that was the last
the object was observed." (Many thanks to Stan Gordon of
Pennsylvania UFO Hotline for this report. You can reach the
hotline at this number--area code 724-number 838-7768, if you
have a UFO sighting in Pennsylvania to report.)


UFOLOGIST LEWIS SAYS METHOW VALLEY UFO IS A CAMERA FLAW

The "Methow Valley UFO" photographed by a security camera at Sun
Mountain resort lodge near Winthrop, Washington state is most
likely a flaw in the camera, Florida ufologist Courtland Lewis
said.

(See UFO Roundup Volume 3 Number 50)

"If you go to the website provided and look at the SkyCam image
for December 16, about 8:30 a.m., you'll see a glaring radiant
object in the same place on the image," Lewis stated.

"The UFO hasn't traveled far in the past month, has it?"

Lewis said the luminous spot was most likely "something on the
camera lens" and not a UFO. (Email Interview)


BRITISH Y2K EXPERT DOES SUDDEN ABOUT-FACE ON LOOMING COMPUTER
CRISIS

Gwyneth Flowers (no relation to Gennifer--J.T.), chairperson of
the UK's Taskforce 2000, did a surprising about-face last week
after warning Britons to stockpile food.

Ms. Flowers, who heads the task force set up by the Ministry of
Trade and Industry to deal with the Year 2000 computer crisis,
told newsmen on December 11, 1998 that "We are talking about
people having a judicious amount of surplus food in their
kitchen cupboards."

Two days later, according to The Observer, Ms. Flowers hastily
backtracked, issuing a second statement, claiming that the UK
media had taken her first statement out of context.

"The big thing is that they don't need to tell everyone they
don't need to take any specific action. We don't want people
hoarding." (See The Observer for December 13, 1998)

In other Millenium Bug news, recently New Zealand imposed a
one-day no-fly-zone over the islands to take effect on December
31, 1999. International flights will not be allowed to land in
New Zealand that day..

In Canada, the Ottawa Citizen stated that "the federal
government should consider engaging the Emergencies Act, the
successor to the War Measures Act, if the Millenium Bug causes"
widespread urban unrest. (See the Ottawa Citizen for December
12, 1998.)


from the UFO Files...

1909: CHRISTMAS SHOPPERS WATCH A UFO FLY OVER BOSTON

On December 23, 1909, over thirty communities in Massachusetts
reported sightings of UFOs, all of which were thought to be the
"airship" invented by Wallace J. Tillinghast, a self-proclaimed
inventor from Worcester, Mass.

But nowhere were the sightings more dramatic than in downtown
Boston, where thousands of people watched the strange display in
the sky.

Here's the actual account as it appeared in the Boston Herald:

"At first, those who saw the lights took them for some unusually
bright star, shining through the hazy atmosphere. The two strong
searchlights were distinguished from the blurred outline as they
flashed among the buildings on Beacon Street."

"Visible for a few minutes, the lights disappeared again and
shortly after were seen above the Common, crossing over the
Charles Street Mall. Many of the skaters in the Public Gardens
were attracted by the lights and left the ice to join the
throngs of Christmas shoppers who forgot their errands to watch
the strange sight."

"The lights moved so quickly that the soon outdistanced the
following crowd and served to put to rest the belief that they
might have come from a large balloon. At times, when seen from
what was taken to be the side of the machine, the lights had the
appearance of automobile headlights, casting a bright glow as
from a reflection. Then they were seen head on and the vague
outline of an aerial craft was barely discernible between the
two lights, which seemed to be on either end."

"At the height of 600 feet, which the airship maintained, the
lights looked scarcely a fathom (6 feet or 1.7 meters--J.T.)
apart, shining with a brightness greater than that of the moon."

"Long shadows were cast by the lights as they floated for a
moment and then quickly dimmed. Above the Common the lights
remained apparently stationary for somewhat less than half an
hour, in apparent contravention of the popular belief that an
aeroplane can remain in the air only when in motion..."

"Coming over the Common and proceeding in the direction of
Copley Square, the lights were again visible a little after 8:15
(p.m.) This time they passed quickly over Back Bay, followed by
a detail of patrolmen from Station #18 in case the operator
attempted a landing, and disappeared in the direction (west) of
Brookline and Chestnut Hill." (See the Boston, Mass. Herald for
December 23, 1909, page 1. See also Fortean Studies, volume 1,
"The New England Airship Invasion of 1909" by Joseph Trainor,
page 67.)


FUN UFO WEBSITES:

For more on the UFO flap in Spain, be sure to visit S.I.B.'s
website at this URL: http://www.arrakis.es/~regulus/sib.htm

The current status of Y2K preparations in New Zealand can be
read at this site: http://www.year2000.co.nz/y2kmz01.htm

If you have any time off during the Christmas holidays, why not
drop in on our parent site, UFOINFO? There are news stories,
photos, features and links galore. Stay awhile and browse. You
can access us at http://ufoinfo.com

Back issues of UFO Roundup can be accessed, read and downloaded
from our page at http://ufoinfo.com/roundup


MERRY CHRISTMAS!

UFO Roundup offers Christmas greetings to the millions of men
and women in uniform around the planet, who are on active duty
and cannot be home with their families for the holiday. Whoever
you are, whatever uniform you proudly wear, whichever country
you serve--here's wishing you a Merry Christmas.


Thirty years ago, on December 21, 1968, three men really did go
"where no man has gone before," namely, to the moon. On that
day, Apollo 8 lifted off from Cape Canaveral (then Cape
Kennedy), Florida for its quarter- million-mile voyage.
Astronauts Frank Borman, James A. Lovell Jr. and William A.
Anders became the first human beings ever to completely escape
Earth's gravity and enter orbit around another world.


Join us next week for more saucer news from around the planet,
brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." Enjoy
your Christmas holidays!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1998 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on
their website or in newsgroups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.







   UFO UpDates
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 23

                       Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:45:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:29:39 -0500
Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 13:31:03 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting


>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:06:06 EST
>>Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:00:58 -0500
>>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>>Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:00:35 -0500
>>>Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:57:10 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting>


Regarding CB Moore's sightings, Brad Sparks has presented a new
and novel explanation...namely, a "skipping" meteor, which is
not an explanation that would have been considered scientific at
the time of th sighting or at the time of Menzel's explanation.
(Menzel, in FLYING SAUCERS, "cleverly" rewrote the sighting so
it would be compatible with his own balloon mirage theory.)

Sparks has presented a number of reasons why it might have been
such a meteor. However, my own study of that sighting many years
ago convinced me that it could not have traveled in a straight
line. Sparks points out that an exp;oding meteor...or one that
breaks into parts, might not travel in a straight lie to
conserve momentum. Thus one might expect a slight deviation from
linear of the path of the main large chunk of a fireball that
"ejects" smaller portions. However, his appeal to the
conservation of monmentum must be modified by the fact that te
splitting, if it occurred, did not occur in a vacuum, as
evidenced by the fact that the hypothetical meteor glowed
brightly. The bright glow indicates friction and this means drag
of the portions of the meteor. These extranous forces could
prevent the simple momentum conservation from taking place,.

However, more important than that is the angle of bend of the on
object. Assume any altitude, A, of the object. Then the
horizontal distance from the observers when first seen at 210
az, 45 elev (approx) was also equal to A . Then it passed near
the direction to the sun at 60 deg elevation and 127 az. At this
point the horizontal component of distance was A/tan60. Then it
proceeded to about 20-25 az and 25 el (approx). At this point
the horizontal component was A/tan25. Now get some polar graph
paper and define north as the top of the paper. Draw a line
along az 210. Choose a scale length for A. I chose 2" on the
paper (a 2" radius circle). Since at 210, th el was 45, H =
2"/tan45 = 2". AT az 127, we have H = 2"/tan60 = 1.15". At az 25
we have H=2"/tan25 = 4.3". Plot these points at 2" from the
center, 1.15" from the center and 4.3" from the center. Now draw
a straight line from the first point (210,45) tp the second
(127,60). This establishes the straight line approximation to
the initial direction of the supposed meteor. Now draw a
straight line for the second to the third (25,25). This is the
final straight line direction. Finally, measure th angle between
the initial straight line direction and the final straight line
direction. I get over 40 degrees. I think the strains beyond
reasonable limit the idea of path bend due to splitting of small
parts off the main large chunk of a meteor.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 23

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: "Leanne Martin" <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:32:36 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:33:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:30:54 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>
>
>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:11:04 PST
>
>>This comment is sad, so sad . . . I don't have 'faith' that
>>these happen and that makes me a 'sad person' - what illogical
>>crap. Is this a religious List? When was EBK declared 'Il Papa
>>del OVNI' and the List a diocese?
>
>So, you think this is a "religious observation," do you?
>Do I detect an abhorance of religious thought?
>Not accusing, just asking...
>
I abhor the application of illogical thought in all its forms so
therefore I dislike the indoctrination and brainwashing of people
that is performed by religions of all persuasions. I feel a bit sad
for anyone whose life is so empty that they will choose a religion
to fill it. In some ways it is sadder than the child who is raised
in a particular religion, indoctrinated from birth, without ever
being asked their permission.

I consider myself a 'christian' (not Christian) in that I follow
JC's tenet of "do unto others...", but there is no way I would join
a church or organized religion and allow myself to be manipulated
by such a group for their own self serving ends.

>Why do we automatically accept the idea that "believe," has
>to do with religion?

Now let me see . . . can we follow a religion by un-believing in it
and its philosophies?

>Do you believe in "earthquakes?"
>Do you believe in "tornadoes?"
>Do you believe it will rain or snow?
>This is a matter of semantics...a play on words, if you will.

At least earthqakes are measurable via seismographs and their
occurrance is immedately obvious.

At least tornadoes are measurable by meteorologists and their
occurrence is obvious.

At least rain and snow are measurable by meteorologists and their
occurence is obvious.

Thanks for the examples of things that are readily measurable and
verifiable scintifically now could you please indicate how alien
abductions are as well for I'm damned if I can find a branch of any
science that can presently do it. Counselling does not qualify as a
science - sorry about that . . .
>
>Unfortunately, most people "believe," much more than they
>know...about virtually everything. They take other peoples
>words for things (which is basically what you are trying to keep
>from doing), rather than getting off their duff and checking it
>out for themselves.

You mean like people listening to abduction stories . . . ?
>
>I am not one of these people. I tend to go against the grain. I
>am more of a loner...I do make the feet walk the walk and the
>mouth talk the talk...
>
>I have traveled over much of the United States and into Canada,
>to investigate UFOs and connected phenomena....

And what verifiable data have you collected that is not hearsay?

>
>Unfortunatley, you do not know me, nor do I know you...yet, that
>could change as a result of these emails....<G>
>
It may well could  <bg>

>>Why should I be expected to believe something someone tells me
>>about an 'alien abduction' any more than some religious nut
>>ranting at me to have 'faith' in their belief that Mary was a
>>virgin in the medical sense and not in a socially specific
>>sense.
>
>Acutally, you are not "expected to believe," anything...I only
>said that I didn't think you should be posting this lack of
>belief in a public email list, and may I add "with such
>ferocity." You are entitled to "think" what you wish...I have no
>problem with that aspect of it...but why so emotionally? (as
>noted in the first paragraph...grin)
>
If I am not expected to believe then why the barage of histrionics
from abductees when I express my incredulity?

>I am not a Catholic, so that arguement doesn't fly with me. She
>may well have been, for all I know.

Mary could not have been a Catholic as the church didn't come into
existance until few hundred years later . . .

>But being familiar with the
>story of her conception, if you look at it from a modern day
>UFO/abductee point of view, it appears she may have been visited
>by Angel/Aliens; overshadowed with a bright light, regained
>consciousness only to be told that she had just conceived by the
>spirit of God, to paraphrase... In essence, she may well have
>been artifically inciminated, which probably will create a
>"religious" response.... But, this "abduction," was for the
>purpose of "changing the DNAP of this person who was there after
>known as "the Son of God."

(Yawn) She was known as a 'virgin' for social reasons - her religious
/social culture referred to women as virgins for at least 2 reasons.
The obvious pre sexual intercourse one and the major social reason of
not yet ready for full marriage. You won't find this in bible studies
but you will in anthropolgical texts to do with Mary's cultural back-
ground. Consider teh bible to be the 'National Enquire' of its day.
Every story a 'block buster', behind which you will find a grain of
truth in some aspect or other!

>If we can accept the idea that
>Humanity may have indeed been engineered by "space faring
>scientists," many million years ago, then it would seem logical
>theat these beings, or their ancestors, would continue to
>monitor their creation down through history...In fact, it is
>possible that these abductions could be for the express purpose
>of "making additional DNA changes in the abductees."
>
A very long bow to draw . . . and not a skeric of proof (funny about
that).

>Many Abductees report a hightened sense of awareness and psychic
>abilities which they did no possess prior to their
>experience(s). Many have suffered physically for years prior to
>their abductions, only to have their physical systems repair
>themselves afterwards...
>
>Still others, who were physically within the range of normal
>physical parameters prior to their abductions, report that they
>have sufferd physical changes, such as a complete loss of
>"sensory feeling," in all parts of their body....And, contrary
>to what the Physicians attempt to do or find out, they remain an
>enigma...
>
>I happen to know an "abductee," self pronounced, who suffers
>this particular type of physical condition...It came on him
>gradually over a period of ten years after his proclaimed
>"abduction." He for all practical purposes, has stopped
>ageing....He still looked like a man of about mid-50's, the last
>time I saw him, about a year and a half ago, but he is now 72
>years old.
>
>If the doctors, neurosurgeons, etc., can't explain what has
>happened to this man, how then can I?
>
"It is 'unexplainable' therefore aliens did it"?

>>If people believe in their own heart and soul that they have
>>been abducted by aliens then I believe that for them it is a
>>real-life experience.
>
>For them yes...I would agree...to me as an observer, I don't
>know...even though I do accept the hypothisis that these events
>do take place...
>
Did you accept only on verbal evidence?

>>It doesn't necessarily make it a factual occurrence in reality.
>>Show me the science!
>
>I can show you the man, in this instance, if you care to travel
>here to see and test him for yourself....He has entertained
>other investigators, hypnotists, & Medical Students which I have
>brought to him...
>
"A man with odd symptoms equals proof of alien abduction"?

>>"I know in my heart and soul that the earth is flat and that if
>>I sail too far in any one direction I will eventually fall into
>>space. I know this is true and you better belief me or you are a
>>sad, bad person!"
>
>Ha, ha, ha...very good...but, unfortunately, I have "flown over
>the horizon," to such places as Hawaii and France...I did not
>fly off into space, nor fall into an abyss. <g> Just call me a
>mean old person...<g>
>
No I shan't, just awee bit short on the science.

>>I don't object to you posting your quasi-religious abduction
>>belief system on the List so why should you object if I have,
>>and post, my quasi-religious non-abduction belief system on the
>>List? Haven't you heard of a right to free speech and religion?
>
>quasi-religious??? By what standards and judgements do you
>determine a thing to be quasi-anything??? You sound so much like
>a Fruedian, while I prefer Carl Jung. <g> You may be a dedicated
>religious person, for all I know. However, it does require
>"belief," to sustain a religious faith...but as you have
>presented it, it also requires a "belief" to deny other people
>their experiences.
>
A belief in something as fact without a shred of hard evidence
qualifies in my book!

>>Basically yes! Where's the scientifically verifiable proof of it
>>being otherwise!
>
>There have been many people tested by psychologists and medical
>doctors as well. There have been objects removed from the bodies
>of so called "abductees," which have been shown to be small
>micor- sopic electronic circuits...this information is out there
>if you are willing to put forth the effort to find it for
>yourself. I don't know if you accept the academic credentials of
>such people as Dr. David Jacobs or Dr. John Mack, of Harvard
>Medical Center..., but both of these Men have worked with many
>people claiming these experiences... You notice I did not put
>"Bud Hopkins," and his work, in this group...There are many
>other people who have worked with these people over the past
>forty years or so.
>
Just because a specialist works on something it doesn't mean that
any claimed outcomes are scintifically accurate. All results must
be 'verifiable by peer review'. (When I get back from my holiday I
shall endeavour to track down those of whom you speak and see their
work.) You know, of course, that you can have a chip inserted into
your dog, should you have one, but does that make one an alien
abductor for doing so?

>>Bond told me of some people he knows who have had the 'abduction
>>experience' across 3 or 4 generations of women in the one family
>>line.
>
>Yes, that has been shown to be the case in some families...
>
>>Looking at it logically: The great grandmother started it off
>>with some bad dreams, or some hallucinations, or a schizoid
>>development, possibly even a series of incest experiences or the
>>like. She evntually incorporated these experiences into her
>>psyche as an alien phenomenon in order to go on and adapt with
>>day-to-day life.
>
>>She eventually has a daughter to whom she transfers this
>>experience and expectation. How? The kid has nightmares (as do
>>we all) and her mothers worst fears come to life - "It's
>>happening to my little girl too!" So she gives the scared little
>>girl her interpretation of what happened and she, in turn,
>>adapts it into her life. And so on down to the present.
>
>You are assuming much here...

You bet, but it was obviously an illustrative example. Religious
indoctrination works the same way.

>Your theories may or may not be
>correct...in many such cases, the mothers did not relate the
>experiences to their children. Yet, found out later that the
>children, now grown, had experienced the same types of dreams,
>etc...not wanting to believe it was real, in order to retain
>their sanity... I don't know that "logic" can apply to this
>phenomena... Logically, anything is possible, but
>scientifically, we are told that most of these possibilities are
>just imagination running wild. Our scientists say that
>"logically, it is impossible (by our present technological
>understanding) for anyone to travle faster than light...yet,
>abductees report that their abductors tell them that
>"lightspeed" is only another barrier which we will eventually
>overcome in time. What it means is that our hypothesis about
>physics in this Universe is incomplete or incorrect... Albert
>Einstein says that E=MC2 and that is a "Universal Law." Yet,
>Nikola Tesla, in the 1880's demonstrated that energy could be
>projected through the earth's surface to a lab in South Africa
>and back, in light speed to the 27th power.... So, what does
>that do to Einstein's "light speed" barrier? Tesla openly
>disagreed with Einstein about this...but where is Tesla's fame
>today??? Not only did he discover AC two phase power, and turn
>on the lights in New York State, by installing large
>electorturbines at Niagra Falls, but he also invented the Radio
>four years before Marconi, but due to the help of his adversary,
>Thomas Edison, Marconi was given credit for the invention of the
>Radio. The Supreme Court overturned that Patent in 1943, and
>gave Tesla credit, but do you ever hear his name associated with
>the invention of the Radio??? NO! It is still Marconi. I could
>give you many other cases of Tesla's inventions which were
>pre-1900 and yet are only coming to use in the last twenty years
>and today, becasue, Tesla's great- ness was erased from the
>History books, for the most part, becasue he Challanged the
>desire for "Profits" by people such as J.P. Morgan, and
>Westinghouse....I will stop here. I tend to get worked up over
>this fraudulant treatment of a great person. :-(
>
I agree, but it only points out the obvious - Tesla's facts were
mostly verifiable else he would not have proved his worth for the
patents he chieved in securing. His other theories on faster than
light transmission are yet to be proven but should they be proven
then he will get the recognition for that as well.

It is, however, not a good analogy for the proof of alien abductions
only of human ineptitude, pride and greed.

>>Horses for courses. If you don't challenge, confront, query,
>>push, pull and probe for verification then you are not a good
>>researcher. That doesn't stop you from being a good counsellor,
>>though, as many of these people obviously need it.
>
>Obviously...sounds like something a psyche studient would say...<G>

A less than subtle put down, Mike  <g>.

<snip>

>Ok, in Desert Storm, soldiers who came home began becoming ill
>and dying...our military complex, denied that there was anything
>wrong with them, other than post traumatic stress...yet, over
>the next 6 - 8 years, over 15,000 of these soldiers, who came
>home apparently healthy died of strange symptoms.... A doctor in
>Texas, whose daughter was a part of Desert Storm, and suddenly
>became ill with the same symptoms, began an earnest research
>into what could be causing her problems. He discovered that she
>had received a large dose of biological infection. It turned out
>that these same soldiers had been told not to put on their
>radiation suits, to protect themselves from possible biological
>attacks by Iraq....even though the Isrealy (sp) troops wore
>theirs... Thus, there were large numbers of American Soldiers
>who died and possibly continue to die today as a result of this.
>This is not my belief, it is documented. I have the radio talk
>show from New York, from one of the doctors who told the story
>and they also talked to the Dr. in Texas who made the discovery.

Still, this no proof for alien abductions, only of poor troop
management practices . . .

>>As always - show me facts!

Like I said . . .

>I have presented the information...it is now up to you to
>procure the evidence...if you so desire....<g>

Wrong (majorly) it is up to the "abduction researchers" to
procure the solid evidence . . .

>Take care Leanne...I look forward to your response. I also
>promise not to make future replies this long...

You too and have a great Christ Mass and New Year. Short ones
are better for my ADD to keep track of I do admit . . . (Hey I'm
not religious but throw a good party!) See you in 3.5 weeks when
I get back from leave.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 23

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:50:29 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:37:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:33:12 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:59:22 PST
>>Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:34:27 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>Leanne, Mike, Jim and the list...

>Wow. It's a good thing that I specifically limited this thread
>to those that believe in abductions. (see original post) I'd
>hate to think about the arguments that might take place if I
>hadn't! ;-)

>As I indicated before, this thread was not intended to be a
>debate regarding whether or not abductions are real. However, in
>an effort to get things back on track, I'll step in for a moment
>and try to make a gentle point.

>Previously, Leanne wrote:

>>I do in fact think that life, in some forms, exists outside of
>>Terra. I like to think that is possible that alien life has
>>visited, or will visit us, if it does indeed exist. Until I see
>>some empirical evidence of visitation then I see no reason to
>>have 'faith' as I am not religious.

>>Obviously UFOs exist or else there wouldn't be evidence of them
>>in photographic form and expert testimony, but that only means
>>that they are unidentified not that they are extraterran
>>vehicles piloted by intelligent alien beings.

>>A belief based on solid scientific facts is good enough for me.

>No offense, Leanne. But each of these statements is in direct
>conflict with your basic intent. Since there is no solid
>scientific fact that proves life elsewhere in the cosmos, then
>your statement

>>I do in fact think that life, in some forms, exists outside of
>>Terra.

>is actually, whether you like it or not, based soley on faith.

Wrong. I merely expressed a thought not a belief. Read and
comprehend the text Roger. I am equally as likey to be wrong but
we won't know until life is/isn't found. Also, by life I mean in
at least the most crude of forms.

>Further, your declaration that

>>Obviously UFOs exist or else there wouldn't be evidence of them
>>in photographic form and expert testimony

>is bogus for two reasons. First off, photos (as we all know)
>mean nothing and are the furthest thing from proof in this day
>and age. Number two is the notion of "expert testimony". Expert
>on what? UFOs? I know of no expert that has seen a UFO up close
>and personal. Do you? And if you did, why would their testimony
>be more valid than someone that claimed to have been abducted?
>After all, the testimony of the abductee is about as first hand
>as your "expert's", maybe even more so.

Wrong. I merely stated that what is in a photo can be
unidentifiable. Also, if you do not know what constitutes
'expert' should you be questioning it in the manner you have?

>Your cry of "show me the science" assumes you'd recognize the
>science if it were presented to you. Just because you personally
>don't buy into an unproven concept doesn't mean it isn't true.
>It simply means you buy into an alternate, unproven concept.

Wrong. The science is self evident. Waiting/looking for
verifiable proof is buying into _neither_ concept.

>In the world of UFOs and abductions, I know of no actual "proof"
>for either. I respect your opinion, Leanne. But to be quite
>honest, if you lack evidence, then NOT believing in something is
>also an act of faith.

Wrong to assume. At no point did I say I did or didn't believe!
I merely expressed a desire for evidence and all the loonies
jumped on me from a great height claiming heresy. The fact that
I posited the odd plausible, skeptical point of view seemed to
make the rush for blood even more frantic.

At least I found out how thin the veneer of 'research' really is
on some people.

>Take care,
>Roger Evans
>
You too Roger.

Leanne  ];-)






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 23

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:53:46 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:40:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:32:11 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:18:11 PST

><snip>

>>You have a Ph.D., think back to your studies and the importance
>>of the 'scientific method'.

><snip>

>_You_ are telling _me_ to apply the scientific method?

>Lady, I got shrapnel in me that's older than you.  My response
>to you is ...  _Horse Hockey_.  Poop's poop now matter how you
>wrap it.  This discussion became personal with one of your last
>posts.  It is time for me to end my part in it.

>Besides, as my wife tells it, "You can't win an argument
>with a woman!"  Even if that woman's a Lady!

>"Merry Christmas.  And HUMBUG!"

>Jim

Thanks, Jim, for the elucidation, Have a good Christ Mass and great
New Year.

Regards,
Leanne  ];-)






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 23

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:11:46 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:45:18 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:56 -0500
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>Hello All,

>Have you noticed that after posting a copy of an x-ray from an
>abductee that there have been absolutely no comments or remarks
>on it? (Other than Nick Balaskas)

>I posted some numbers based on an internal survey of the members
>of AIC in regard to questions about the ethnicity of those
>reporting abduction and nothing more has been posted on that
>thread either.

Sorry. I didn't reply to this because:

a) I thought everyone was getting a bit fed-up with the debate
on ethnicity, immigration, race, etc;

and

b) the figures quoted were, as yet, too small a sample on which
to start to draw serious conclusions. However, limited as they
are, the statistics do seem to confirm the suggestion that Black
Americans are much less likely to experience, or _report_, the
abduction phenomenon.

I would not want this thread to drop, and would strongly support
John Velez and any others in gathering statistics on this issue.
A very brief preliminary survey of the UK abduction literature
does not show a single abductee from any ethnic minority. Of
course the proportion of Black and Asian (in the UK this means
people from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, rather than
Vietnam and SE Asia, which I believe is the American usage) is
much smaller in Britain (about 2% of the population in the
country as a whole, but much higher in parts of London and in
the big cities of Central and Northern England - up to about 40%
in some London boroughs)

However I don't have very complete listings and I would be
interested to hear from any British researchers who _have_ dealt
with Black and Asian British abductees.

So John, I assure you this thread is not dead as far as I'm
concerned, but has just gone into an information gathering
phrase. And where better to collate the information when it
comes in than on this list!


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine,
a division of the P.L.A. Driftwood International Cartel
www.magonia.demon.co.uk





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   Dec > Dec 23

                Advertising Space Literally Out Of This World

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 02:44:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:04:24 -0500
Subject: Advertising Space Literally Out Of This World


Source: National Post Online (Don Mills, Ontario).

URL: http://www.nationalpost.com/home.asp?f=3D981222/2124162

Stig

*******

Tuesday, December 22, 1998

Advertising space that is literally out of this world

Space station for rent?

Corbin Andrews
National Post

***

NASA is exploring the possibility of offering commercial
advertising space on the side of the International Space
Station, provided it is "low-key and sensitively done."

In a study released last week, NASA officials noted the
potential for the agency to tap into billions of advertising
dollars as a means of offsetting the costs of continued space
research. Among other things, the report recommends the agency
"Evaluate the potential effect on the public's perception of
NASA, and determine parameters of acceptable brand name displays
and methods." Sensitive to NASA's role as a government body, the
authors note "The [advertising] model . . . is aligned with that
of the Public Broadcasting System, in which sponsorship is
low-key and tastefully done."

"Our present plan is to conduct a market analysis to see how
much money this could bring in," says Lori Garver, NASA's acting
associate administrator for policy and plans.

"We would need to get the approval of Congress and the
administration before we could proceed, but it is definitely
something we are interested in pursuing."

Ms. Garver says a number of other government entities solicit
commercial funding for their projects, but NASA may face unique
restrictions. "We have to make sure that there are no policies
in place that prevent us from doing this," she says.

The move to offer advertising space was prompted by the passing
of the Commercial Space Act this year. The act mandates that
NASA investigate and pursue as many alternatives to government
funding as possible. The U.S. government has made it clear
future budget allowances to the agency will be cut to reflect
its intention to support the actual scientific research but not
the associated costs.

"NASA already operates on a budget that is largely funded by the
private sector," says Pat Dasch, executive director of the
National Space Society, a space research advocacy organization
in Washington, D.C. "Commercializing more of the agency's
operations would free up government money to do more of the real
space research."

NASA administrators project that 30% of the $20-billion price
tag for building and maintaining the space station will be paid
for with private funding. Ms. Dasch believes there would be more
government money to do scientific space research if private
companies picked up the tab for building spacecraft and sending
them into space. Commercializing NASA's ventures is one obvious
way to drum up the necessary funds.

The Japanese government and the European Space Agency, two of
America's major partners in the ISS operation, back the
initiative to market the space station as a stellar billboard,
and are pursuing similar strategies of their own.


Copyright =A9 Southam Inc. All rights reserved. Optimized for
browser versions 3.0 and higher. "National Post Online is a
production of Southam Inc., Canada's largest publisher of
daily newspapers."





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   Dec > Dec 23

                      Dr. Gerald K. Haines - He's Back

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 23:06:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:08:37 -0500
Subject: Dr. Gerald K. Haines - He's Back


List readers who remember the article the CIA released into the
media at the time of the Roswell anniversary may find this
notice interesting.  Last Stanton Friedman noted Dr. Haines was
at the NRO. The article was CIA's Role in the Study of UFOs,
1947-90 (A Die Hard Issue), Studies in Intelligence Vol.1 No.1,
1997.

New CIA Chief Historian Appointed

Dr. Gerald K. Haines has been appointed Chief Historian of the
CIA, succeeding Dr. L. Kay Oliver, who retired in 1997. Dr.
Haines joined CIA in 1989 and became Deputy Chief of the History
Staff six years later. In 1996 he left the Agency to establish a
new history office at the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO);
he returned to CIA in late 1997. His background is in US
diplomatic history; he received his Ph.D. from the University of
Wisconsin-Madison in 1973. A year later he joined NARA as a
foreign policy specialist, moving on to the National Security
Agency in 1981 as a staff historian.

The CIA History Staff was established in 1950. It has had
several "homes" within the Agency over the years. In 1992 it
became part of an expanded CSI. Staff historians research and
publish classified and unclassified studies dealing with the
missions and functions of CIA. The nine-person staff also
teaches a classified "History of CIA" course twice a year, runs
an oral history program, and assists the State Department's
Office of the Historian in the compilation of the Foreign
Relations of the United States series. Dr. Donald Steury of the
History Staff manages CIA's Historical Intelligence Collection,
located in the CIA Library.





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              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:42:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:14:02 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 23:22:23 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:56 -0500
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Subject: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>>Hello All,

><snip>

>>In fact in every instance where something of substance was
>>offered, it stopped those threads dead in their tracks. It's
>>almost as if as long as it's just 'rap' and purely intellectual
>>it's ok, people will post away with lots to say. But put some
>>meat on the table, and the thread dies an abrupt and
>>unceremonius death.

<snip>

>>Unless it's just rap, rap, and more rap, people don't seem very
>>interested in anything tangible/factual. I have been listening to
>>people whine; "Show me some proof" for years on this list.
>>But each and everytime an attempt is made to provide it everyone
>>falls silent and the thread just dies. Armchair ufologists, all
>>talk, no substance. Everytime I put up, everybody shuts up.

>John, I hear you! Welcome to the Club! The marvelous work of
>RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team) is posted week after
>week by the various dedicated photo analysts on their own web
>sites -- none of them with ANYTHING to sell! -- and with the
>simple request to all to help them find the true ANSWERS to the
>Roswell Riddle. And what is the response? Largely, the
>extremists like KRandle and Dennis Stacy and Bob Shell just go
>ballistic -- but offer NO assistance or suggestions. I am
>getting the feeling that many ufologists are simply AFRAID to
>look for the TRUTH! It just might NOT be what they in their
>narrow vision already have seen!

>>I don't know, what does that tell you?

>I just keep wondering... and hoping for a more helpful response.

>James Bond Johnson


Forgive me. I am a little distracted while I write this. You
see, I have taken some fine 1/2 inch polyester rope, tied the
most luxurious hangmans knot in it, and tightened it securely
around my neck with the knot just behind my spine. While
typing, I am checking the ruggedness of my porch overhang and
measuring the drop to the ground to be sure that I will fall far
enough for a clean snap. Why, do you ask, am I undertaking such
drastic actions?

I have been to the University of Texas at Arlington, upstairs in
the Special Collections Division. I have used the cheap
magnifying glass supplied by the kind women at the desk to study
the recently made 16 by 20 prints that can be held and inspected
closely. In all four of the JBJohnson prints available there, I
have clearly seen the debris of what is ONLY a weathered rawin
device. I have been to the RPIT site, and in all the images, no
matter how manipulated, have seen ONLY the same debris.

So, how in hell, do you ask, can this explain my desperate
response? Simple, I cannot comprehend, I cannot fathom, I cannot
rationalize how a group of educated, knowledgable, perceptive
men can succumb to such self delusion, such twisted
interpretation. A single example of their flawed science: In the
areas where they are outlining glyphs, the glyphs are traced in
a relatively flat outline although we know that the surfaces on
which they are supposedly imprinted are heavily crumpled. If the
glyphs were real images on this crushed surface, the simplest of
them would be barely perceptable. They could never be easily
traced.

As I stand on my porch railing comtemplating this world where
intelligent men proudly defend their new-found mythology (while
marveling at the soft and supple feel of modern polyester,) I
look over my shoulder fully expecting to see a young girl in a
blue flowered dress come skipping across the porch holding out
to me a fudge brownie with a tag attached reading "eat me."

Bye... Ted..






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   Dec > Dec 23

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 01:30:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:18:50 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>From: Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer
>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 01:00:23 -0600

>>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:56 -0500
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Subject: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>>Hello All,

>>Have you noticed that after posting a copy of an x-ray from an
>>abductee that there have been absolutely no comments or remarks
>>on it? (Other than Nick Balaskas)

Tim writes:

>John,

>Proudly considering myself to be of the "show me/fence sitters"
>group, I thought I'd pop in a quick reply. Certainly the .jpg
>image you sent out to the list was interesting, but I don't know
>what sort of reaction you expect.

The range is infinite. I'd settle for finding out if anyone has
ever seen or heard of anything like it. I haven't read all of
the literature, nor do I follow any of the media programs
dedicated to UFO phenomena. I thought maybe someone knew of
another or similar case. I also happen to know that at least one
member of this list is a physician. I was hoping to hear from
him as well. I could go on but you get the idea I'm sure.

> Are these doctors "on the record" regarding their
>opinions on this object?

Hey man, I'm lucky to have any doctors at all to consult! These
guys contacted me initially because of the photos that are
posted on the IF website. Two of them are associated with a well
known teaching instituion and the first thing that they asked
for in exchange for their analysis and opinions was complete
anonymity.

_That_ is precisely why this attempt at getting the material
analysed by professionals who are willing to sign off on their
work was initiated.

>Too good and clean to be true;-)

Save your winks for the ladies. These are honorable men that
have donated their time and expertise when none other was
available. They have careers and reputations to protect. I am
grateful for the services that they do provide. And for free!
Sure, I'll protect their anonymity because _they_ requested it.
They are too valuable a resource and commodity for me to insist
that they also go public. As with abductees, going public is a
personal decision and not one that should be demanded. This
time, we're looking for pro's who are willing to sign off on
their own work. But it must be voluntary. I will not insist that
someone who wishes to remain anonymous come out publicly and
against their wishes or personal judgement.

>As far as there being no one reputable or qualified to do
>further analysis - get some documented opinions from these
>doctors and then I'll bet you'll have an immediate challenge
>from half the "debunkers" in the world who will be willing to
>pay for any sort of analysis that can be done by an impartial
>party. And if not, hell, I'll whip out my phonebook and my Visa
>and try to help out myself, or at least make a few calls;-).
>have you had no luck in finding anyone who can be of assistance
>in getting an analysis done?

Money talks, BS walks. No different here. Why do you think I've
asked for help with this to begin with?

>But you also seem to suggest that for some reason the
>fencesitters or the skeptics should be _responsible_ for the
>doctor bills of every person who thinks they have some sort of
>evidence of an abduction. this I don't understand.

You're wrong in your "assumption" so don't fret over it. <G>

>but where is the Intruders Foundation, or MUFON, etc,
>etc? You accuse those of us in the middle of not being willing
>to "put up,"

That's interesting. Where did you get the impression that the
Intruders Foundation has any money? I can't speak for MUFON but
even if they had the money I wouldn't take my laundry to them
much less something as important as potential evidence.

>Do I detect the suggestion that everyone who tries to be
>objective is simply an underground skeptic and that any "sane
>person" already knows the answers and therefore wouldnt dare ask
>"wheres the proof?"

Geez, what mental rathole did you find that one in!

Did I say _anything_ in my post that even remotely resembles
the paragraph you wrote above? Or are you making this up as
you go along? Methinks you do!

I have _no idea_ what you "detect," but if you _read my posts_ I
have a habit of saying exactly what I mean. I'm not too
difficult to understand. If you're going to ruminate about what
I mean or may be suggesting, then as long as you realise that
they are nothing more than your own idle ruminations and that
they have absolutely nothing to do with me, I'm ok with whatever
you think I mean. <G>

>John, yes you did "put up," but sorry to say that I hardly think
>those of us who are "on the middle of the fence" are sitting
>around with our mouths agape at this undeniable evidence. we're
>just waiting to see if anything of substance ever comes of it.

So am I.

BTW, In the six years that I've been doing this work I have
never sold anything, pitched _anyone's_ books (including Budd
who I work for) and have never made a dime, (period) at anything
I've done publicly re: abductions/UFOs. Quite to the contrary,
my involvement has cost me considerable money over the years.

I'm not out to "write a book" as you "suggested." I guess when
you have nothing else, it's always convenient/easy to try to
imply that someones motives or character are less than they
could be.

If I had in the past given indications that I am a money or fame
oriented/centered person then your questioning of my motives
would be just. But that is simply not the case. (nor has it ever
been.)

Peace,

John Velez

________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________





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   Dec > Dec 23

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 16:38:28 +0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:21:35 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:56 -0500
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>Hello All,
>
>Have you noticed that after posting a copy of an x-ray from an
>abductee that there have been absolutely no comments or remarks
>on it? (Other than Nick Balaskas)
>
>I posted some numbers based on an internal survey of the members
>of AIC in regard to questions about the ethnicity of those
>reporting abduction and nothing more has been posted on that
>thread either.
>
>In fact in every instance where something of substance was
>offered, it stopped those threads dead in their tracks. It's
>almost as if as long as it's just 'rap' and purely intellectual
>it's ok, people will post away with lots to say. But put some
>meat on the table, and the thread dies an abrupt and
>unceremonius death.


<snip>


>Disappointed in New York,
>
>John Velez, Webmaster IF-AIC


John,

Don't you think it is better for people to keep their traps shut
if they have nothing constructive to say or to add?

What were you expecting List members to say?  Wow, this is it
guys, we have the proof we've been waiting for? :-)

But seriously, if someone has nothing constructive to add to the
discussion, or will only respond negatively I say remain silent,
for the ones who can legitimately contribute to the point of the
thread will open up and be a breath of fresh air.

Try not to be too disappointed, at least you don't have to wade
through a tonne of crap on your email.

Peace at this glorious time of the year.

Sharon K






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                       Re: Cattle Mutilations Solved!

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 02:27:38 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:26:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Cattle Mutilations Solved!


>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:02:59 +0000
>From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
>Organization: UFO Scotland
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Cattle Mutilations Apparently Solved!

>Festive greets listmembers,

>Here at UFO Scotland we have just received an extremely
>interesting document that may indeed unravel the mystery of the
>Cattle Mutilation scenario.

>A quote from the leaked government document fresh from a most
>reliable Pentagon/MOD source follows below:

<snip>

>"The cored rectums were a big mistake to the aliens as they
>thought that cows rectums may actually make a better
>restoration, growing more hair when repeatedly rubbed along the
>scalp and hairline. This proved to be a sad mis-calculation ..

I just purchased a 1.75 litre bottle of Scottish Hair Restorer,
and must say it smells a lot prettier than anything from a cow.

<snip>

Please forgive me if I say anything idiotic or unreadable
over the next few days.   -LH

>
>Merry Christmas All!
>
>Your friend,
>
>           Dave Ledger (UFO Scotland)

And the same to you!

-  Larry Hatch







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   Dec > Dec 23

                 Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 06:22:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:30:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell


>From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk>
>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Richard Hall comments on/about Art Bell
>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 17:45:22 -0000

>Hi Bob & List,

>Many thanx for the info.

>It still doesn't change my support for Art Bell.

>Who in the 'general public' is going to listen to you, me or any
>other researcher? Its through people like Art that many
>'average' people gets an interest in the subject of ufology to
>start with. Then I guess its up to people like us to develop it;
>come on I'm not into slagging people off just because they don't
>believe what I do (despite what some might say about me). I'll
>give anyone the benefit of the doubt until proved wrong. Art
>Bell is doing a good job, there are a lot of people around with
>a lot less sincere motives.... take a look at these first.

>Also many thanx for the info on 'Bridges' whom I'll be in
>contact with, an e-mail will do as attending a meeting
>might be difficult for this abductee as I live in London.

>Happy Christmas All,

>MarcBell

Marc and list-

I think that Richard understands the entertainment value of Art
Bell, but believes that to refer to him as a "Guru" in the genre
of ufology is taking it a bit too far. You are correct in that
Art Bell is very accessible and for many it may be their only
connection to the paranormal.

Art has stated that he leaves it up to his listeners to
determine the validity of the claims being made on his show.
From what I can tell by some of the comments I see on the 'net'
and elsewhere, it is my opinion that there tends to be a lack of
"critical thinking" that seems to rule the day.

I guess it's a question of whether you want ufology to be
defined by entertainment programs such as Art Bell, or by the
many actual researchers who are trying to define the "truth".
Put another way, is the scientific study of UFOs (known as
Ufology) to be defined by a vote from the general public, or by
those performing (hopefully scientific) research.

Art Bell at times has excellent guests who provide tremendous
information that is both valid and interesting (of course that
is often a personal definition). But critics and skeptics have
a field day with Ufology as it becomes entangled with all sorts
of strange and bizarre beliefs, and Art Bell's show helps make
that distinction less clear.

Art's show is not a new phenomenon, and he follows in the
footsteps of many late night talk shows that have been aired on
radio since it's very early days. The Long John Nebel Show,
which aired in the 1950s on WOR in New York (a "Clear Channel"
that could be heard all across the US at night if the weather
cooperates), is a prime example. Long John also followed the
UFO story on his program, and some of his shows are classics.

Just a comment.

Steve






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                           Triangle Seen In Utah?

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:30:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:45:37 -0500
Subject: Triangle Seen In Utah?


Source: Manny Fernandez on "alt.ufo.reports", December 23, 1998.

Stig

*******

From: manny1@ix.netcom.com (Manny Fernandez)
Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
Subject: Did Anyone see 3 UFOs tonight in Utah... 9:15pm?
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:17:23 GMT


Tonite, in Park City, UT, on a clear night, at 9:15 pm, my wife
and I saw three bright white lights, in a triangular formation,
silently streak across the sky at a tremendous speed, at first
in a straight line and then make a left turn and recede until
they disappeared, over the span of about 5 seconds. Did anyone
else see this?

MF





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                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 07:27:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:49:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology
>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:12:09 PST

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:18:47 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:03:19 -0500
>>>Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:13:46 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>Previously, Gary wrote:

>>>We should always keep in mind the fact that to my critics on
>>>this list I am a ufological nobody making wild and totally
>>>unsubstantiated charges. Please read that sentence again, and
>>>compare it with what has been happening on this list for the
>>>last several days. That is, my wild and unsubstantiated charges
>>>have brought down a veritable hurricane of abuse, a level of
>>>response seemingly far, far above that deserved by wild and
>>>unsubstantiated charges. Why has this been? Well, as my
>>>private mail has shown, there is reason for the reaction of my
>>>critics and those list readers with experience in this field
>>>know that full well.

>>(Sorry, ebk, for the following response but I just can't stand
>>it any more...)

>>Gary, what a bunch of crap!

>>You know, I had pretty much bowed out of this "discussion", if
>>you can call it such, not because I couldn't match wits with
>>your mental dexterity or your logic, but because you absolutely,
>>pathologically, uncontrollably refuse to stick with the topic at
>>hand or to answer one single question regarding the proof
>>required to back up your "research".

><snip>

>>I never thought I see the day that I'd quote Ed Stewart, but the
>>term "intellectual dishonesty" fits you like a glove. I'm sure
>>your book is going great guns. It's easy to write when you don't
>>have to back up any claims.


>That's exactly how annoying it is trying to talk
>fact/science/data with some of the 'abductee/contactee' listers.
>The more frustrating thing for you is that in this argument the
>other side is too good at dodging the question/s. In my argument
>("Return to the Herd" thread) it basicly boils down to the other
>side being too close to the subject matter - too subjective,
>with an understandable barrier against objectivity. It is
>undeniably a touchy matter for them (their 'knowing' that they
>have been abducted) and rightly so, yet in the name research for
>the greater good, to help us all understand their plight, the
>request for verifiable proof brings on the histrionics.

<snip>

>Roger, good luck in your search for _verifiable truths_ as it
>seems a very hard road to hoe. I am on the eve of 3.5 weeks of
>annual leave and near the point of not givin' a fig (in the Oz
>vernacular) as to how this thread ends [yawning vacuously] yet
>really caring that logic is served (and a true answer is found)
>{I feel about as dexterous as the pig (yes that one) from the
>Babe movies).


Leanne,

I think you missed the point and you analogy is invalid. Whereas
Gary offers a postulate and insults and derides those who ask
for evidence in a generally kind manner, the abductees offer a
postulate and you insult and deride them while demanding
evidence. And you are shackling them with your selfish concept
of what evidence and proof are. My concepts of the abduction
phenomenon would probably please you more than the abductees but
that isn't the purpose of my reply. Presenting some flaws in
your position is.

You keep demanding evidence as used in the physical sciences as
if that was all there was to science. When physical evidence is
available, this concept can be applied. Until then, these
persons episodes are experiencial and must be studied in the
realm of the social sciences. Here, we must begin with each
individuals declaration of their experience. Large numbers of
these need to be gathered and from them patterns can be
detected. These patterns help us understand the nature of the
phenomenon. This is far more messy than measuring physical
evidence, but it is still valid science.

We can disagree with the abductees conclusions, we can question
some of their motivations, but it is dishonest to deny them
their experience.

Bye... Ted..






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   Dec > Dec 23

                            12 days of Christmas

From: Sheree Cox <cox@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:51:47 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 12:34:47 -0500
Subject: 12 days of Christmas


Hi everyone!!

Wishing you all a great Christmas and a fun but safe New Years!
Here's hoping your dreams become a reality in 1999!!

The following was sent to me and I thought you all might enjoy it...


Sugject:  the 12 days of christmas

>
.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.

       _______)    _______)   ,__)      ____,           ____,
      (--||_, _   (--|      _ |   _    (--| \ _    ,   (--/ \ ,_,
        _|| |(/_    _|(_|_)(/_|\/(/_     _|_/(_|\|/_)_    \_/_|_
       (    |__,   (                    (     ,__|         ,__|

                   ____,,__)     ,__)
                  (--/ `|_,,_' ,-|-,_,_, _  ,
                    /   | || |/_)| | | |(_|/_)
                    \__,  |__,   |__,

 On the Twelfth Day of Christmas, my true love gave to me:
 Twelve Drummers Drumming

                   .-}        .-}        .-}
                   |_|        |_|        |_|
                   (_)        (_)  __    (_) .---.
                   | \ .--.   | \.'  '.  | \/     \
                   |\_|--o )  |\_|--o  ; |\_|--o   |
                   |:| '--'   |:|'.__.'  |:|\     /
                   |:|        |:|        |:| `---`
                   |:|_       |:|_       |:|_
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

         .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.
         |M|   |E|   |R|   |R|   |Y|   |X|   |M|   |A|   |S|
         (_)   (_)   (_)   (_)   (_)   (_)   (_)   (_)   (_)
        /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\
        [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX]
         |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||
         |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||
        _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 Eleven Pipers Piping
     _     _     _     _     _     _     _     _     _     _     _
   ,/_)  ,/_)  ,/_)  ,/_)  ,/_)  ,/_)  ,/_)  ,/_)  ,/_)  ,/_)  ,/_)
    (")   (")   (")   (")   (")   (")   (")   (")   (")   (")   (")
    /I\   /I\   /I\   /I\   /I\   /I\   /I\   /I\   /I\   /I\   /I\
   (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\)
    |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||
    |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||   |||
   _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 Ten Lords A-Leaping

                               w              w
                w              0__           \0__
               \0__     w     /|_     w      /_
               /_     __0/  '\/ /    \0_  '\/ /    w
            '\/ /      /_       `    /_       `  __0/
                `   `\/  \,         _\ \,         /_
                 w                 `           `\/  \,
                \0__      w                 w
                /_        0__       w      \0__
               _\ \,     /|_      __0/      |_
              `        `\/  \,     /_      _\ \,
                                `\/ /,    `

 Nine Ladies Dancing

                                                        |~
                      ()                       ()      0` |~
              ()    _/)(\_           ()      _/)(\_      0`
            _/)(\_   /^^\    ()    _/)(\_     /""\
             /~~\   /____\ _/)(\_   /``\     /____\
            /____\          /""\   /____\   ()
                    ()     /____\         _/)(\_      ()
          |~      _/)(\_           ()      /^^\     _/)(\_
         0` |~     /``\          _/)(\_   /____\     /~~\
           0`     /____\          /~~\              /____\
                                 /____\

 Eight Maids A-Milking

           __.----.       __.----.        __.----.
__.----.___
 (\(__)/)-'     (\(__)/)-'      (\(__)/)-'      (\(__)/)-'
;--`
  `(uu)'      _  `(dd)'       _  `(gg)'       _  `(vv)'       _   |
   )  (      (|)  )  (       (|)  )  (       (|)  )  (       (|)  |
  (o  o)     8~8 (o  o)      8~8 (o  o)      8~8 (o  o)      8~8 ,/
   `--'\_    (__).`--'\_    (__).'`--'\_    (__).'`--'\_    _(__)|
        `|||~~/\||     `|||~~/\||      `|||~~/\||      `||~|| /\||
  ^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^
           __.----.       __.----.        __.----.
__.----.___
 (\(__)/)-'      (\(__)/)-'     (\(__)/)-'     (\(__)/)-'
;--`
  `(99)'       _  `(66)'      _  `(aa)'      _  `(ee)'        _  |
   )  (      ( |)  )  (      (|)  )  (      (|)  )  (        (|) |
  (o  o)      8~8 (o  o)     8~8 (o  o)     8~8 (o  o)       8~8,/
   `--'\_    (__).'`--'\_    (__).`--'\_    (__).`--'\_    _(__)|
        `|||~~/\||      `|||~~/\||     `|||~~/\||     `||~|| /\||
  ^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^

 Seven swans A-Swimming

        ___     ___     ___     ___     ___     ___     ___
       /,_ \   /,_ \   /,_ \   /,_ \   /,_ \   /,_ \   /,_ \    _,
       |/ )/   |/ )/   |/ )/   |/ )/   |/ )/   |/ )/   |/ )/   / |
         //  _/ |//  _/  //  _/  //  _/  //  _/  //  _/  //  _/  |
        / (_/   / (_/   / (_/   / (_/   / (_/   / (_/   / (_/   _)
       /   `   /   `   /   `   /   `   /   `   /   `   /   `   _/)
       \  ~=-  \  ~=-  \  ~=-  \  ~=-  \  ~=-  \  ~=-  \  ~=-   /

~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~

 Six Geese A-Laying
     __         __         __         __         __         __
   >(' )      >(' )      >(' )      >(' )      >(' )      >(' )
     )/   ,     )/   ,     )/   ,     )/   ,     )/   ,     )/   ,
    /(____/\   /(____/\   /(____/\   /(____/\   /(____/\   /(____/\
   /        ) /        ) /        ) /        ) /        ) /
 )
   \ `  =~~/  \ `  =~~/  \ `  =~~/  \ `  =~~/  \ `  =~~/  \ `  =~~/
    `---Y-' __ `---Y-' __ `---Y-' __ `---Y-' __ `---Y-' __
`---Y-' __
       ~~' (__)   ~~' (__)   ~~' (__)   ~~' (__)   ~~' (__)   ~~'
(__)

 Five Golden Rings

                     .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.   .-.
                    ((_)) ((_)) ((_)) ((_)) ((_))
                     '-'   '-'   '-'   '-'   '-'

 Four Calling Birds

                  ___       ___       ___       ___
                 ('v')     ('v')     ('v')     ('v')
                ((   ))   ((   ))   ((   ))   ((   ))
              -/-"---"---/-"---"---/-"---"---/-"---"--

 Three French Hens

                     (\  }\   (\  }\   (\  }\
                     (  \_('(  \_('(  \_('>
                     (__(=_)  (__(=_)  (__(=_)
                        -"=      -"=      -"=

 Two Turtle Doves
                            _      _
                           <')_,/ <') ,/
                           (_==/  (_==/
                            ='-    ='-

 And a Partridge in a Pear Tree
                             _
                            ('>
                            /))@@@@@
                           /@"@@@@@()@
                          @@()@@()@@@@
                          @@@O@@@@()@@@
                          @()@@\@@@()@@
                           @()@||@@@@@
                             @@||@@@
                               ||
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


>
.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.

      __,_,_,___)          _______
     (--| | |             (--/    ),_)       ,_)
        | | |  _ ,_,_        |     |_ ,_' , _|_,_,_, _  ,
      __| | | (/_| | (_|     |     | || |/_)_| | | |(_|/_)___,
     (      |___,   ,__|     \____)  |__,          |__,

                             |                         _...._
                           (\o/)                    .:::'''':o:.
                       ---  / \  ---                :o:_    _:::
                            >*<                     `:}_>()<_{:'
                           >0<@<                 @    `'//\\'`    @
                          >@<<*              @ #     //  \\        # @
                        >*@<<<@<<

                       >@0<<<*<<@<         |=_- .-/\ /\ /\ /\--.
|_=_-|
                      >*0<<@<<<@<<<        |-_= | \ \\ \\ \\ \
|-_=-|
                     >@*<<@<>*<<0<*<       |_=-=| / // // // /
|_=-_|
       \*/          >0*<<@<>0><<*<@<<      |=_- |`-'`-'`-'`-'
|=_=-|
   ___\\U//___     >*@><0<<*@><*<0<<     | =_-| o          o
|_==_|
   |\\ | | \\|    >@0<*<<0@<<0<<<*<@<    |=_- | !     (    !
|=-_=|
   | \\| | _(UU)_ >((*))_>0><*<0><@<<<0<*<  _|-,-=| !    ).    !
|-_-=|_
   |\ \| || / //||.*.*.*.|@<<*<<@<0<<@</=-((=_| ! __(:')__ !
|=_==_-\
   |\\_|_|&&_// ||*.*.*.*|_\\db//__     (\_/)-=))-|/^\=^=^^=^=/^\|




Sheree Cox
Math & Stats Dept
BSB/133
McMaster University
1280 Main Street West
Hamilton, Ontario  L8S 4K1
(905) 525-9140, ext. 24582

****************************************************************************







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 23

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:08:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:08:33 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:53:59 -0500
>Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 00:47:35 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

Previously, I had written:

>>I know your intentions are honest. But the fact is that an X-ray
>>is just another photo, and not a very good one at that. I spent
>>several years as a medical illustrator at the University of
>>Texas Medical School in Houston. I can't tell you the number of
>>"bogus" or "gag" X-rays that were passed around. The objects
>>that seemed to be embeded ranged from patrolman's flashlights (I
>>won't mention where) to baseballs to coke bottles. If regular
>>UFO photos are easy to dummy-up, which they are, X-rays are even
>>easier to doctor.

<snip>

>>At any rate, that's why I don't get all worked up over X-rays
>>as "proof"; they're not.

John's response:

>Never claimed they were. (?) Respond to what's written in the
>posts! You open up your UpDates, read my post, then you say to
>yourself; "Well gee, x-rays aren't conclusive proof" and then
>you respond to me (as if) -I- had somehow implied or openly made
>that claim. That was all just in your head Roger. It had nothing
>to do with anything I claimed or said or wrote. It's comical
>man. <G>

<snip>

>Instead of having an intelligent discussion I find myself
>explaining things that were already explained and addressing
>negative and wholly manufactured comments such as the the one
>you made above. Waste of time man.

If I missed one of your earlier posts, then I'm sorry for the
confusion. However, you need to read your own posts, dude. The
catalyst for all this was you condemning us for not responding
to the "proof" you claimed we were all seeking regarding
abductions. Your position was that everything we talk about was
only "rap" until faced with real proof and that in such an
occurance, the thread or discussion stops dead in its tracks.
I've reread your previous post and, clearly, the only "proof"
you could be referring to was the x-ray.  After all, what else
is there? The man is anonymous and a doctor has, yet, to qualify
anything.

So what's left? Only the x-ray.

However, if the x-ray isn't the proof you say we are ignoring,
then what is? As I said in my original post, I think your
intentions are honest, but apparently I'm just not getting it.

Likewise, others aren't either, since you wrote:

>Please Greg, (and others too) read what I write - not what
>_you_ think I wrote. It'll eliminate a ton of misunderstanding
>and unecessary bickering over non-existent issues.

I have an even better idea, John. Think about what you write
before you write it. That will also eliminate a ton of
misunderstanding and unecessary bickering over non-existent
issues. Beyond that, don't get bent out of shape because people
didn't respond the way you wanted them to about a subject that
you obviously have great passion for.

I wish you much luck in your research.

Happy holidays,
Roger Evans






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 23

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:17:58 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:11:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:50:29 PST
>Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:37:48 -0500
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

Previously, I had written:

>>Since there is no solid
>>scientific fact that proves life elsewhere in the cosmos, then
>>your statement

>>>I do in fact think that life, in some forms, exists outside of
>>>Terra.

>>is actually, whether you like it or not, based soley on faith.

Leanne's response:

>Wrong. I merely expressed a thought not a belief. Read and
>comprehend the text Roger. I am equally as likey to be wrong but
>we won't know until life is/isn't found. Also, by life I mean in
>at least the most crude of forms.

Come on, Leanne. You're insulting me with semantics and I don't
deserve such treatment.

If someone says, "I think there's alien life" then that's
somehow different than, "I believe there's alien life."?

Please.

In either case, you have nothing more than a "feeling" that what
you are saying is true. To make it even clearer, neither
reflects the notion that what you are saying is NOT true,
despite the lack of proof to support your "thinking" or "belief"
or what ever term you feel applies.

Moving on, I wrote:

>>Further, your declaration that

>>>Obviously UFOs exist or else there wouldn't be evidence of them
>>>in photographic form and expert testimony

>>is bogus for two reasons. First off, photos (as we all know)
>>mean nothing and are the furthest thing from proof in this day
>>and age. Number two is the notion of "expert testimony". Expert
>>on what? UFOs? I know of no expert that has seen a UFO up close
>>and personal. Do you? And if you did, why would their testimony
>>be more valid than someone that claimed to have been abducted?
>>After all, the testimony of the abductee is about as first hand
>>as your "expert's", maybe even more so.

Leanne's response:

>Wrong. I merely stated that what is in a photo can be
>unidentifiable.

Wrong, yourself, Leanne.

A photo of something that is supposed to an Unidentified Flying
Object means nothing because it may not have existed in the
original photo at all. So your claim that "obviously UFO's
exist" because of the photographic evidence is based on the
faulty assumption (or should I say "faith") that the photos are
valid documentation of the following:

1) unidentifiable, 2) that it was flying and 3) that it was even
an object or anomaly that really existed. In this day and age,
photos can be produced that, visually, fit all of the above
criteria without the subject matter even existing in physical
form to be photographed at all. Therefore, photos do not prove
that UFO's, real or otherwise, exist. They only prove that
photos exist.

Leanne added:

>Also, if you do not know what constitutes
>'expert' should you be questioning it in the manner you have?

I'm not even sure what this means, Leanne. But I'll play the
game with you. Give me one name of someone that you consider
"expert" who's testimony is enough to prove that "obviously
UFO's exist". And, while we're at it, explain why this person's
testimony is more valid than a first hand witness such as an
abductee.

Trudging forward, I had offered:

>>Your cry of "show me the science" assumes you'd recognize the
>>science if it were presented to you. Just because you personally
>>don't buy into an unproven concept doesn't mean it isn't true.
>>It simply means you buy into an alternate, unproven concept.

Leanne declared:

>Wrong. The science is self evident. Waiting/looking for
>verifiable proof is buying into _neither_ concept.

Agreed.

But that's not what you are doing, Leanne. On the one hand, you
don't think abductions are real because of a lack of proof. On
the other hand, you do think that life exists elsewhere in the
cosmos. Neither "belief" has any proof to support it, but you DO
choose one, unproven concept over the other for whatever
personal reasons your "faith" in science dictates.

Finally I wrote:

>>In the world of UFOs and abductions, I know of no actual "proof"
>>for either. I respect your opinion, Leanne. But to be quite
>>honest, if you lack evidence, then NOT believing in something is
>>also an act of faith.

>Wrong to assume. At no point did I say I did or didn't believe!

Wrong, yourself. You made it clear you had no faith in the
claims of abductees. Again, I'm not going to get into a game of
semantics, Leanne. But somewhere along the way, you really must
take stock of your own personal views and decide how many are
merely based on "faith" and nothing more. Once you've done that,
then you might understand how the other side feels when
confronted with the demand for "proof".

>I merely expressed a desire for evidence and all the loonies
>jumped on me from a great height claiming heresy. The fact that
>I posited the odd plausible, skeptical point of view seemed to
>make the rush for blood even more frantic. At least I found
>out how thin the veneer of 'research' really is >on some people.

This is rather harsh, don't you think?

After all, there isn't a single view that you "think" to be true
regarding alien life or UFO's that can be backed up with proof,
or this discussion list wouldn't even exist. Granted, some of
the responses to your post were a bit tough on you. But that's
to be expected from some that find the subject to be a
passionate one.

But passion does not preclude validity. The truth can still be
the truth, regardless of whether it's whispered or shouted.

My advice to all concerned is to consume great quantities of
egg-nog, possibly spiked with some of Jimmy Mortellero's fine
spirits, and kick back to enjoy the holiday season. After the
third mug, and the final nog, we'll all be seeing little green
men and the debate will be solved.

Take care, all.

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 23

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:45:03 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:13:51 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 01:30:03 -0500
>Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:18:50 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>>From: Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer
>>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 01:00:23 -0600

Previously, Tim offered:

>>Do I detect the suggestion that everyone who tries to be
>>objective is simply an underground skeptic and that any "sane
>>person" already knows the answers and therefore wouldnt dare ask
>>"wheres the proof?"

John's response:

>Geez, what mental rathole did you find that one in!

>Did I say _anything_ in my post that even remotely resembles
>the paragraph you wrote above? Or are you making this up as
>you go along? Methinks you do!

>I have _no idea_ what you "detect," but if you _read my posts_ I
>have a habit of saying exactly what I mean. I'm not too
>difficult to understand. If you're going to ruminate about what
>I mean or may be suggesting, then as long as you realise that
>they are nothing more than your own idle ruminations and that
>they have absolutely nothing to do with me, I'm ok with whatever
>you think I mean. <G>

Time out, John...

I detect a pattern here, whether you mean to or not.

People that agree with you get a "right on", butt slap and a
high five. People that disagree with you are insulted and/or
accused of "not reading your posts", "misreading your posts",
"making stuff up as they go along" or some such nonsense.

And you wonder why more people don't respond to your posts?

Take care,






   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 23

                Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'

From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@torino.alpcom.it>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:21:58 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:16:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'


>Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:54:02 -0500
>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Santilli On Kiviat's 'Alien Autopsy Hoax'
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>Two points which should be noted for those not familiar with the
>story:

>1. The 'first autopsy', footage has rarely been shown - Philip
>Mantle is the only person I know who has definitely seen it.


Santilli's Italian partner and promoter, Maurizio Baiata, was
also shown the "first autopsy", or at least he has repeatedly
claimed so.

He also had some stills from it, published in the magazine he is
editor of, "Notiziario UFO".

I seem to recall I posted a more detailed comment about such
claims, many many months ago.

If you are interested and cannot find it, I'll try and find it.

Best regards



Edoardo Russo                             Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici
CISU, Casella postale 82, 10100 Torino - tel 011-3290279 - fax 011-545033
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo          e-mail: edoardo.russo@torino.alpcom.it





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 23

             Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

From: John W. Ratcliff <jratclif@inlink.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:39:30 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:23:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.


I'm a little bit leery of Kiviat's 'expose' of the alien autopsy
film, given early indications are that the special doesn't
expose the alien autopsy film that Fox broadcast, and used such
great hyperbole to promote in the first place.

Simple fact of the matter is that I *want* to hear the solution
to the mystery.  That's what we all want, I believe, when we
watch Fox's magic tricks revealed, or merely read to the end of
a murder mystery novel.  I've hovered at the fringes of the
alien autopsy controversy since day one.  I have no emotional
investment in the thing being 'real' or 'non-real' whatever
those are supposed to mean.  I do, however, have an emotional
investment as to what the actual truth of the matter is.  Who
made it, when, where, why, with what purpose and all the gory
details (pun intended) about this bizarre production.  I am
guilty of believing a real mystery lies here, not so much in
terms of pre-pubescent alien girls getting chopped up like
Sunday's liver for light prime-time entertainment, but more as a
bit of theatre of the absurd with the express purpose of
manipulating belief systems.

The only frustration I have in this affair are people who blow
the whole thing off lightly, without the mystery ever being
resolved.  And, I am frustrated to hear that Kiviat fails to
address any of these issues in his production.  I want to see
the set, I want to see the dummy in construction, I want to hear
from all of those involved in the hoax, the why, where's,
when's.  I want the smoking gun, the entire footage, raw and
unedited.  I want to hear how every detail was constructed for
the set to be so authentic to the time period, and how the clock
on the wall was kept perfectly synchronized.  I want to hear the
rational for why that particular deformed little girl's body was
constructed.

Was this some sort of film assembled by the intelligence
community?  Who produced, funded it?  Hoax for profit?  Fine,
why, who, where, what for?

While hearing the details regarding the tent footage as a hoaxed
production sounds quite entertaining, that doesn't have much, if
anything, to do with the actual alien gutting we saw on Fox a
couple of years ago.

Come on Kiviat, please tell me you are going to do a meaty,
serious, weighty investigation?  Aww, who am I kidding.

John W. Ratcliff





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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 23

                  Re: Need UFO Investigator In Vermont, USA

From: Ben Field <ben@abcfield.force9.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:03:39 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:28:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Need UFO Investigator In Vermont, USA


Hi

I am hoping that someone can help,

I have been contacted by a Mr. James xxxxx (Age:32) from
Essex.Crt.Vt USA, he has been telling me of a UFO incident that
he had in 1981. The only thing is he would really like to talk
to a UFO investigator, and as I am in the UK, I can't really
talk to him in person.

Here's where I hope someone can help, If anyone would like to
investigate this incident please email me with your details, and
I will pass them on to Mr James Savard. I found his story is
very interesting.

Here is one of James Emails asking for help:


Ben

Thanks for getting back to me, the reason why I didn't put every
thing down is because I'm not fast with Email, or computers or
typing I'm still new at this and its hard to get my experiences
all down on email.

If you do know someone close by who can help, this would be
great. What I've seen really needs to be investagated and the
area at cobble hill in Milton,vermont, but you know the elusion
from a distance may not be right. So an Investargater is what I
really need to tell this story to. Maybe something can still be
found after all this time.

Your help Ben is very inportanted to me.

Thanks Again Ben
James x xxxxx SR

===============

Please email me at: ben@abcfield.force9.co.uk

All the best

Ben Field
BUFOD: http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 24

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:42:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:21:33 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer



>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:11:46 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>I would not want this thread to drop, and would strongly support
>John Velez and any others in gathering statistics on this issue.
>A very brief preliminary survey of the UK abduction literature
>does not show a single abductee from any ethnic minority.
>John Rimmer

Does anyone have numbers for the percentage of abductees in the
generel population for the US vs UK (or other) populations?  Is
it about the same percentage per population?  How about
developed vs developing countries?  The study of so-called Third
World countries would also be fascinating (although difficult
for both technological and cultural reasons--what we call
abductions are probably classified very differently in cultures
relatively uncontaminated by western influences).

Brian






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 24

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:23:17 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:54:37 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 01:30:03 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>>From: Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer
>>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 01:00:23 -0600

>>>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:56 -0500
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>>Subject: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>>Do I detect the suggestion that everyone who tries to be
>>objective is simply an underground skeptic and that any "sane
>>person" already knows the answers and therefore wouldnt dare ask
>>"wheres the proof?"

>Did I say _anything_ in my post that even remotely resembles
>the paragraph you wrote above? Or are you making this up as
>you go along? Methinks you do!


Cute, but theres really no need to be pissy.  If I was so off
target, then who/what are you being so _defensive_ against?  As
far as I can see, no one attacked your "xrays" or even your
beliefs in alien abductions, whether we buy them or not.  Yet
when you post, you immediately jump behind the guns and start
firing blindly at anyone who's not in your HOPKINESQUE bunker
*evil grin thrown right back your way,* and make (failed)
attempts at snide comments to anyone who simply said they wanted
concrete proof of the physical reality of alien abductions ("us
and them," as usual, with anyone who is "not with us" being
"against us").  Again, if I'm wrong, then why the hell are you
ranting againt those who simply said "show me?"  afterall,
didn't you start this thread by saying "well, I've put up, so
where is everyone?" definitely sounds like youre more interested
in trying to win an argument than you are in having a rational,
thoughtful conversation.  if you do want a rational conversation
thats fine with me, but I'm not going to play games and flame
back and forth, I have no interest in that.  From my point of
view, the "discussion" is over, because you apparently never
really wanted one to begin with, and since I have no idea who
the hell you are or why I should take the time, I'm not going
sling the mud with ya, so I'll let it drop.  if at some point in
the future you decide youd like to have a discussion that is
*gasp* more than a snide remark contest and a hidden argument to
bolster your beliefs and attack everyone elses (or their lack of
belief as the case may be) and one that is truly a search for
knowledge, I'll be here, till then....

Happy feckin Holidaze all,

Tim Brigham- "Kafka-esque"   ;-)

)+(
www.devilsadvocate.base.org The Devil's Advocate
www.mindphuck.home.ml.org Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."
)+(






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 24

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Sheree Cox <cox@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 14:24:50 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:55:53 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


Hi all:

Just thought I'd give my two cents on this ...

When John Velez sent his original e-mail out concerning the
X-Ray, I never got the impression he thought it was proof of any
kind and I certainly didnt get any kind of indication he wanted
people to go wow!  I felt he was asking for assistance of some
kind, but of course people started to read things into the
e-mail.  It's good to question everything so you can distinguish
between the hoaxes and the truth, but there are times when the
nit-picking just becomes a habit and not responsible research.


**************************************
Sheree Cox :)
McMaster University
Math. & Stats. Dept.
BSB/133
(905) 525-9l40 Ext. 24582
E-mail: cox@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca
**************************************







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 24

                           The Skeptical Believer

From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:33:02 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:59:13 -0500
Subject: The Skeptical Believer


With this one I'm out to brave the last minute xmas shopping
frenzy, so if I dont get a chance to say it before then - Happy
Holidays, all.

Best,

Tim Brigham

______________



The Skeptical Believer www.devilsadvocate.base.org

Two Believers, Two Skeptics, Ed Dames and ONE MILLION BUCKS

by John Shirley

No, I don't agree with everything the late Carl Sagan said. I
think he was a smart, visionary writer, he advanced the cause of
science -- and he was right to be skeptical. But I don't
automatically dismiss the possibility of alien visitation in our
lifetimes. However. Ahem. I do think Sagan was right in raising
the "burden of proof" issue. He basically said that the burden
of proof is on those who claim that UFOs, flying saucers, flying
triangles, etc, are alien spacecraft. That is, those who make a
claim like that -- which Occam's Razor makes unlikely to be true
-- had better have really, really strong evidence, physical
evidence, if they want their claim to be taken seriously by the
scientific community. And it should be unbreakable evidence,
evidence that cannot be reasonably disputed.

Recently a very good, crisp videotape of an apparent flying
saucer over Mexico City surfaced -- to some people, since it's
such a good image of an alien spacecraft, it can't be disputed.
But, in fact, in an era when it's relatively easy to create an
image like this digitally through computer animation (and when
there are persistent rumors that that is just how it was done),
the image can be reasonably disputed. Even if it's a real
object, it could be a remote piloted vehicle of some kind -- Is
that reaching? But Sagan would ask: What is more likely, that it
is a spacecraft come from another star system, or that it is
either an animation or a Remote Piloted Vehicle, many of which
are known to exist? The burden of proof is on the Believer to
prove that what's in the videotape is a real alien spacecraft.
That's the burden of proof issue.

I don't think we need burden of proof to dismiss many claimants.
Some, as I've pointed out before, are simply luridly
discreditable (like Billy Meier and Derrel Sims and those
members of CSETI who claim to be able to summon alien spacecraft
telepathically), or have discredited themselves somehow, like Ed
Dames. Remote viewer Ed Dames is known (and his friend John
Alexander admits this happened) to have predicted a mass landing
of alien spacecraft at a specific time and place. Time came,
place was observed, landing didn't happen. In fact there's no
evidence that Ed Dames has ever "viewed" or predicted anything
accurately -- not that I've ever seen.

Dames pops up here because after the appearance of a column in
which I made light of Remote Viewers, a reader wrote to me and
said, "What about Ed Dames?" He indicated that Dames was the
Real Deal.

As some of the evidence for Dames' authenticity as a guy who
could telepathically "view" things from afar, my correspondent
cited Dames' background with the CIA, and the "fact" that James
Randi, the famous skeptic, had "refused to test Dames" because
"he knew that Dames would win the one million dollars" of the
challenge Randi has made to psychics, in place for years now.
Randi offered one million dollars "to any person or persons who
can demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability
of any kind under satisfactory observing conditions."

I tried to get hold of Dames, sending him email and messages
through intermediaries, to ask if he made this claim about Randi
and exactly why. Couldn't get him.

James Randi did respond to my email, and gave me his phone
number. I called him at the James Randi Educational Foundation,
and spoke to him several times. He is a very articulate man,
sardonic in tone, and sometimes quite vehement though he never
really lost his temper (nor was he impolite to me). He comes off
as a man who's had it up to here with rumors and mythology about
him and the Foundation. People aren't doing their homework; all
these questions have been answered at his website
(www.randi.org) or in his books, his encyclopedia, in Time
magazine, and other places. But he answered me anyway.

Dames, he said, was welcome to take the test any time; and he
was never prevented from taking the test. All he has to do is
sign the application form. (Said form is available at the Randi
website for your perusal.) Dames refused to sign the form --
which, so far as I can tell, simply lays out the inevitable
rules of a scientific test. As to Dames' allegations: "A direct
blatant lie," Randi said. "No two ways about it. He refuses to
sign the claim form. He wants to make the rules for a test
conform to his convenience. The first rule of the Challenge is
you must agree to the rules of the test."

I located and spoke to a friend of Dames', a real believer
who's worked with him, and who now works for an organization
investigating UFOs -- John Alexander, in Beverly Hills,
California. Alexander sounded suspicious of me, and there was an
undertone of hostility. He was quite familiar with the
Randi/Dames question, and when asked why Dames refused to do the
psychic-challenge paperwork, Alexander said it was because
"there's no way anybody could win -- it's unwinnable -- it's a
magician's trick..." (James Randi is, or was, a stage magician:
prestidigitation, illusion, admitted trickery.) He said that
Randi is the kind of magician who asks you to pick a card and if
you pick the one he doesn't want you to pick he'll say, "Uh, are
you sure you mean that card?" Alexander claimed that Randi
pre-screens the subjects in some way and if he finds that the
person's ability is real he makes it impossible for the subject
to take the test. Alexander offered no proof of this. He said
that Randi "gets a lot of mileage" out of his challenge, but the
challenge isn't real, as the money (he claimed) isn't really
available. Alexander claimed that Randi has been "caught running
away after it worked" and he gave as example Randi's alleged
reaction to observing Fijian firewalking: The well known
phenomenon of the Fiji islanders walking across hot coals
barefoot. Alexander claimed that Randi had seen this happen and
admitted that he didn't know how it happened.

Randi, Alexander said, was not a skeptic (Alexander claimed to
be one of those); Randi, he said, was a debunker who sets out
with the assumption of fraud and will always find some way to
demolish evidence, however unfairly. "His belief system will not
allow for the possibility of such events". When I asked what
proof he had of this, whether he'd observed this in the
Challenge testing, Alexander didn't reply.

Alexander admitted that there is "much fraud and
frontloading...in Remote viewing today. The field is so
contaminated -- some professor in Georgia attends a one week
course then rewrites the whole field...It's a buyer beware
situation." And sometimes, he said, Ed Dames "speaks without
thinking", making outrageous predictions based on inadequate
work. But he insists that Dames is really a psychic and is
well-meaning. Alexander mentioned that he would like to
challenge Randi to meet Uri Geller in Washington again.

I was thinking that Randi probably wouldn't bother since (if
I'm remembering this correctly), on the Johnny Carson show, in
front of millions of people, Randi already demonstrated that
Geller was a fraud. Geller has been discredited more than once.
Why do it again?

Alexander also said that there is no real scientific judging
process in Randi's challenge, nothing that would take into
account minute changes after psychokinesis results, for example;
nothing that would allow for an extended period of testing and
looking in detail at patterns. Psychic phenomena was not always
blatantly quantifiable, at least not without looking at patterns
and results over a number of days or weeks. Results may not be
black and white clear but will be indicative of something real
there. Randi didn't allow for that.

And anyway, Alexander said, the money for the Challenge is
bogus -- is not available, he claimed. It's all just pledges by
different people and, he said, Randi had assured them they will
never have to pay it.

Alexander referred me to paragraphs 4, 5 and 6 of the psychic
challenge as being specifically unfair, something that Dames
couldn't agree to.

>From paragraphs 4, 5 and 6 of the Challenge: "Tests will be
designed in such a way that no 'judging' procedure is required.
Results will be self-evident to any observer, in accordance with
the rules which will be agreed upon by all parties in advance of
any formal testing procedure taking place. No part of the
testing procedure may be changed in any way without the express
agreement of all parties concerned. Mr Randi, though present at
formal tests, will not directly interact with the materials
used. . . . The applicant may be asked and/or required to
perform informally before an appointed representative, if
distance and time dictate that need, for purposes of determining
if the applicant is likely to perform as promised. This is to
eliminate the need for formal testing in such cases. There is
no limit on the number of times an applicant may re-apply. All
expenses...are the sole responsibility of the claimant."

The first two lines quoted above are bound to be controversial,
in this context. "Results will be self-evident to any observer".
Two people may disagree about what's self evident or what
generally constitutes acceptable evidence. But then Randi's
challenge does go on to say that this is to be "in accordance
with the rules which will be agreed upon by all parties". So the
applicant could come up with something that would be agreeable
to all parties as adequately definitive. He has input too, here.
It seems to me that the applicant, too, is protected by the "no
part of the testing proceedure may be changed in any way"
business. The pre-screening business Alexander apparently was
referring to seems to be the bit about the applicant possibly
being asked to perform informally before an appointed
representative -- I can see why this is in the application.
Clearly this sort of thing will attract numerous nutcases. Some
could be dangerous. But the main objection to testing everyone
that comes along right away is that you'll get as many paranoids
and schizophrenics and paranoid-schizophrenics that way as known
Remote viewers or psychics and this could mean wasting heaps of
time and money. If a guy is obviously delusional, or hasn't got
a shred of an "act" together, or is some kind of con artist,
it's reasonable to dismiss him before formal testing. They test
people formally all the time, for the challenge, Randi says, so
we know that lots of people get through the preliminary
screening. And he indicated to me that he would test Dames
anytime Dames wanted -- no need, then, for a screening for
Dames. And as to expenses being the sole responsibility of the
claimant -- So? What's wrong with that? Does the Foundation pay
for a free trip to Washington for everyone who claims to be
psychic?

I see nothing objectionable in the application, at all --
unless one disputes the need for a self-evident proof. What is
meant by self-evident? This perhaps needs to be spelled out.

Still -- Since the challenge offers ONE MILLION DOLLARS for
proof of psychic phenomenon, it naturally requires clear-cut
proof. And naturally requires that the tested individual agree
to the rules, otherwise any one could claim he/she passed the
test but is being refused the money, and then mount an
opportunistic lawsuit.

But wait -- is there a million dollars to be given to a
prizewinner? Does it exist?

Yes. Because so many people objected to the pledge system, the
money has been set aside in an account. A "special announcement"
about this is easily obtainable at www.randi.org. "The Club 2000
prize, one million dollars awardable to any person who provides
good evidence to prove any psychic, supernatural or occult power
or event, is still unclaimed and it's now even more accessible.
The money is in the James Randi Educational Foundation Prize
Account held by Golman Sachs, New York..."

So the money is there now; it's in a specific, confirmable
place, all of it.

I called Randi and asked him what he thought of Alexander's
other allegations.

As to Fijian firewalking, he says he never said he couldn't
explain it, and in fact he has done the firewalking himself!
There's a skeptic in California who demonstrates how it's done
every two weeks! He shows volunteers how to do it. Basically the
islanders use a volcanic rock which does not hold heat -- these
rocks have low "specific heat", like the space shuttle tiles.

As for the challenge tests... First, he said, "I don't design
the tests." So there's no need to make it all Randi's doing.
There are various scientists involved. As to the self evident
proof issue, Randi says that claiming the money because you came
up with the right answer on the ESP cards fractionally more
often than would be likely by probability is not acceptable --
because that can be accounted for by chance. There is lots of
variance in what is probable; that's why it's called "probable"
instead of "for sure". That sort of test is just too vague, too
arguable, to trickable, too open to interpretation. It has to be
definitive proof. One example: They have a locked cabinet at
the foundation offices; they change the secret object in it
every so often. He challenges psychics to tell him what it is,
what it is definitely. If it's a ketchup bottle, say "It's a
ketchup bottle". Don't say, "it's more long than it is squat and
it's not yellow or blue and glass is involved, perhaps". Say
it's a ketchup bottle.

These people are not giving away a million dollars for arguable
"indicators". They are giving out a million buckeroos in
exchange for definite proof. I don't see what's unreasonable in
that. The bottom line is, the burden of proof is on the
claimant.

Randi says that what Dames does "is not Remote Viewing". If it
is a real thing, then real Remote Viewing doesn't mean saying "I
see a plane somewhere in the southern hemisphere...there's a
lake somewhere nearby. It may or may not be a spyplane."

It means saying what it is and where it is clearly, or RV is
useless.

(I didn't ask him about Jimmy Carter's having mentioned Remote
Viewing being used to find a downed aircraft in Central America,
but since originally having heard about it, I've also heard that
the object was only "very roughly" located by RV and they knew
it was somewhere in Central America anyway so it was all very
indefinite).

Randi points out that many psychics charge money, meaning, we
suppose, that they want money. And if they had the psychic
powers that would get them the million dollars, they would
demonstrate them. But the famous ones don't show up to be tested
because they know they wouldn't pass, because the tests are
rigorous and then they'd be discredited and lose customers. This
is why, presumably, Uri Geller doesn't come around to be tested
though he "spelunks" oil, psychically, for money, for some
overseas oil-location concerns. He can count on once in a while
hitting oil by chance and having them ignore the majority of
times when he was wrong; but if he's tested rigorously he'll
fail, and lose that intermittent geyser of oil-spelunking
cash-flow.

"If you can do it and get a million bucks for doing it, why not
do it?" Randi asked. And he went on, "If I go out on the street
and see a man with a violin and bow in his hands and if I say to
him, If you play the violin for me I'll give you a million
dollars, you bet he'll play the violin for me, and fast." But
the famous psychics refuse to "play the violin" to get the
money.

Lesser known people convinced they have psychic powers come
around and take the tests and then, Randi says, when they leave
they always say "but it worked so well until today." But they
don't really argue. They're saying that to save face.

He'll happily test Dames but he knows, he says, what would
happen if Dames took the test. Dames, being a fraud, will fail
and then say that the room was too cold, or there were negative
vibrations, or something, interfering with his powers.

And while Dames evidently did once work for the CIA as part of
its tests of Remote Viewing, Randi (somewhat gleefully) points
out that the "head of the CIA himself publicly declared that
Dames found absolutely nothing for the CIA." The Remote Viewing
program, the director said, had been "a waste of 20 million
dollars. There were no results."

But of course Believers will claim the CIA director was
spreading disinformation, covering up. They don't trust military
or intelligence sources -- and yet when a guy comes along
claiming to have worked for the military, or for an intelligence
service, like Corso and Dames, Believers will cite that
background as proof of his credibility. Is there a contradiction
here?

Why, Randi wondered, would people believe Ed Dames over James
Randi? What makes Dames more trustworthy with respect to his
account of the Psychic Challenge? Randi is not the one claiming
to Remote View alien spacecraft. Who is the one making bizarre
claims?

"The one thing that people like Ed Dames dread is to be
tested," he went on. "Ed Dames has too much to lose."

The Reader who got me to do all this expensive phone calling
was clearly a Believer (I won't give his name; he seems like a
nice guy, even intelligent, if a bit na=EFve). In several emails
he defended Remote Viewing, and Dames, but at last admitted that
he'd taken a seminar from Dames, and was working on his own
Remote Viewing in a studentish sort of way. Hence he was perhaps
not unbiased where the RV and Dames issue is concerned: he'd
invested money in it, and time, and that means his ego is
invested too. If he admits RV is bogus, then he admits he was
taken in, and feels a fool. And that has a lot to do with
Believership across throughout the UFO and paranormal field.

Does all this mean I think that there is no such thing as
psychic phenomena? No, I know for a fact that some psychic
phenomena exists -- but I cannot prove that it is a fact and
hence will not relate how I know what I know: it would be mere
hearsay. I cannot carry the burden of proof. And it would be
telling tales out of "school".

But I think Randi is entirely right to take the approach he
does and, indeed, to be as skeptical as he is. He would be right
to disbelieve me. We are better off being strict rationalists,
scientists, with respect to these issues, than being fuzzy
minded about it. Because experience has demonstrated that pretty
much all who claim these abilities are mistaken, or lying. And
it is unwise to make yourself vulnerable to liars. They are
lying for a reason. Sometimes, making oneself vulnerable to
liars of this sort can be lethal. I refuse to forget Heaven's
Gate, or the Solar Temple deaths.

* * *

It's funny how emotional people get -- yes including me --
about all this. I was having lunch with a Believer friend of
mine, very intelligent fellow who was getting visibly upset
(though trying to conceal it), when I kept poking holes in each
of his "unassailable cases" of flying saucer encounters. He
seemed to have an emotional need to believe.

At a UFO convention, I think it was last year, Phil Klass, the
skeptic, was forced to leave an event because he was "a
disinformation agent" or something similar. They forced this
frail old gentleman, who has trouble walking nowadays, to leave
the room, though he had every right to be there. It was an
emotionally childish thing to do to him.

I've spoke to Mr Klass on the phone and he was patient,
kind-hearted (he was very concerned about his friend Bruce
Maccabee being taken in by Ed Walters -- he was genuinely
worried for Maccabee), and even open minded. He was mature about
disagreeing.

It's true that many skeptics froth at the mouth, too. Like me:
I get flamboyantly frustrated at times. I've especially noted
this phenomenon with respect to atheists -- atheists are
strangely emotional about atheism. They get angry. But it's
strange -- isn't atheism supposed to be supremely rational? Not
emotional? I understand agnostics, who say they don't know --
but I don't understand atheists. Can they rationally prove,
absolutely, that there is no God?

I don't see how. Not in any absolute way. So how can they be
so...dogmatic?

#

HURRAY! SHIRLEY'S GUARANTEED LAST WORDS ABOUT UFOS
EVER!...ALMOST...

I got into the whole Ed Dames issue as part of a discussion
about Remote Viewers, who have "diversified" into the UFO field,
doubtless to get additional lecture fees and seminar customers.

Recently I went to look at another facet of the burgeoning UFO
industry, a Web site which supposedly had the goods on
alien-implants. As far as I've ever been able to discover, any
anomalous object clearly found to have been discovered hidden
away in human tissue turned out to be bits of, say, Coca-Cola
glass (these things often turn up in the foot, figure it out),
odd bits of conventional synthetics, metal splinters and so
forth. Even truly anomalous objects found in human tissue could
easily have been put there by the "implantee" -- self mutilation
is a common neurotic problem, and some people will go to great
lengths to get attention. Alien Implants is a case where "burden
of proof" really applies. There are so many, many ways odd
little objects can have turned up subdermally in a few of the
hundreds of millions of Americans. Ask a dermatologist or an
internist: it happens all the time. And indeed, if real
implants turn up they are more likely to have some sinister
human origin (surveillance testing) than some sinister alien
origin. Collateral evidence in the form of hypnotically
reclaimed memories is, of course, useless, since hypnotically
reclaiming "hidden" memories has been shown to have no
scientific basis. "Implantees" who remember encounters with
aliens or mysterious lights are probably priming the pump of
belief in others. That is, they're lying. And X-ray photos, by
the way, are easily faked.

But who knows, maybe these people have real evidence, I
thought, so I went to look...

The closest thing to "evidence" I found was a letter of opinion
regarding samples from "implants" analyzed by New Mexico tech.
The sample had a "coating" of some hard shiny material that
"could not be cut with a scalpel" -- implying alien high tech, I
take it. The letter of opinion states that the sample provided
an elemental analysis similar to some meteorites...at first. It
seems that the Implant enthusiasts connect meteors with outer
space and outer space with aliens therefore this chunk of
non-artifact metal has some connection with aliens. Somehow.

The report concludes "An altogether different hypothesis can be
formulated based on the fact that these specimens were
extracted from an human body. An iron sliver, embedded in human
tissue, could possibly cause a calcification reaction. This
would explain the presence of calcium and phosphorous on the
surface of the samples. Chlorapatite and other calcium phosphate
minerals are the major component of hard tissue...In fact
calcium phosphate based ceramics have been used in medicine and
dentistry for nearly twenty years due to their bioactive nature.
In light of this, even if the cladding was not formed inside the
body but rather entered the tissue in its entirety as a sliver
from a stone it is not surprising that the body had no adverse
reaction to the foreign object..." So the mysterious coating is
calcium generated by the body and the sliver is just iron with
some elemental structure sort of like, but not definitively
like, a meteor. Stunning.

I saw nothing else like real evidence at the Web site.

I remarked on this lack to an email list, and got a reply from
a Dr Lier (or Leir, I don't care enough about the guy to look it
up just now), telling me to shut up, as I wasn't "knowledgeable"
in that area. This fellow, I believe, is a podiatrist who found
the above implant (or other implants) in someone's foot and then
joined Derrel Sims' Circus of Implants. I replied that I was
thinking of writing about it and if he would like to give me
evidence that would contradict my current views, why, I'd
publish that evidence. I also asked him if he'd heard of Derrel
Sims' checkered past. The Foot Doctor replied IN FONT LIKE THIS
THROUGH THE WHOLE EMAIL that I was obviously not a scientist,
not party to the information that he had, that I was reacting to
rumors and surface information found on the unreliable Internet
(I agree about the Internet's unreliability) and that the real
evidence was not being made available to the public so I
should, in effect, shut up and go away. So he claims to have
evidence confirming alien implants but won't give it to us
...And he was going to forward my libelous email, in which I
repeated mere gossip, to Sims. And he didn't want to get any
more email from me. I sent him email immediately saying that it
wasn't gossip, there is documentation of Sims claiming to have
wrestled with an alien and there is documentation for his having
tried to sell "learn to be a black belt in karate in one hour"
snake oil. I of course haven't heard from the Foot Doctor again.

Con artists and Foot Doctors are honored guests at UFO
conventions. Doddering old spies, in exchange for lucrative book
contracts and tv movie deals, are feted for their completely
unsubstantiated claims to have seen Roswell debris artifacts
that were supposed basis of our modern technology, becoming our
transistors. Transistors?! The aliens who travel between the
star systems used transistors in their spacecraft! But they
probably have atomic powered AM radios. Corso also admitted to
treason against the United States: he says he met an alien in a
cave who asked him to turn off the radar at a nearby Air Force
base -- and he did! He's turning off our radar for aliens from
another world? That's treason, isn't it? No, it's a SILLY
STORY....Jazz singers who claim to have had sex with reptilian
aliens are interviewed in the once-respectable CNI
newsletter...Earnest members of MUFON pay for lectures by
channelers and pseudo-academic snake oil salesmen ("the ancient
Sumerians were aliens") and for guys like Stephen Greer who
ludicrously claim to be able to summon UFOs through a form of
telepathy called "vectoring in" ...Ufologists stare at blow ups
of tin foil trash in photos released to the newspapers of the
"weather balloon" (read, Mogul balloon) debris...And my 11 year
old son, when he saw that article, said, "But if it was really
flying saucer debris they wouldn't have allowed a photograph of
it in the newspaper." Very true, my boy.

But that's the state UFOlogy is in. Foot Doctors and snake oil
salesmen rule. Openmindedness is one thing but collaborating in
making ufology look moronic is another. But then again it looks
as if it doesn't need any help: UFOlogy, in general, has an IQ
of 83. So I'm blowing off the UFO field and will concentrate on
other areas in this column --after next column, when I have my
FINAL WORD....in which I give you my New Hypothesis on What UFOs
Really Are...

Did you hear the roll of the tympani?


[John Shirley's new story collection is BLACK BUTTERFLIES and
his most recent novel is SILICON EMBRACE both available from
Mark V. Ziesing books]
________________
Playing The Devil's Advocate
(from the webmaster)

Ok, this is a straight up reply, with minimal editing. I'm not
going to even try to play "Devil's Advocate" to most of what
John said. It makes sense. I'm not about to dispute that there
is a burden of proof on the hands of anyone who makes an
outlandish claim. What I want to point out here, is that we
cannot make the assumption that because so many (way too damn
many, obviously) of those involved in the field of the
paranormal make silly boasts and claims and cannot back them up,
and are, in general, nothing more than and snake oil salesmen,
that there is absolutely no genuinely unexplained phenomena
worth studying in a rational manner. (Note that I'm sure John
probably agrees with that statement, just as I agree with him. I
merely suggest we change the focus.)

For instance, John challenges that any remote viewer who can
pass a test as set forth by Randi should put up or shut up. Of
course he's 100% correct, but you know what? I never believed
that anybody could remote view anything correctly anywhere close
to 100% of the time, and anyone who says they can do this
infallibly had better be ready to show me. Of course, my problem
with such a view is obvious: Those of us in the middle, the
non-zealots, the non-believers and non-dogmatic, aren't usually
interested in the type of folks who make such claims to begin
with. We recognize the silliness of such proclamations, and if
someone wants to prove that they really can do this, infallibly,
send them to Randi. Do I believe there could be *something* to
remote viewing? Maybe. But do I believe that Ed Dames, or anyone
else, can infallibly produce results which would pass
statistical and scientific measurements to make them obviously
genuine and infallible (i.e., can I ask "what's in the box on my
desk?" and expect to get a correct answer 10 out of 10 tries?)?
Hell no! That's not even the issue for me.

With a challenge such as this we are looking to win the game
before we've even dealt the cards. Sure, if someone says they
can perform a task and do so without error, test them. Such a
test which challenges boasts of miraculous abilites will help
accomplish two things: 1) attempt to show the people who
actually believe in telephone psychics that they are full of
bull (this is good). 2) Give the Dogmatic non-believrs out there
fuel with which to generalize the entire spectrum of the unusual
(this, obviously, is bad). I believe the real interest for those
of us who already know the truth about telephone psychics and
snake oil salesman lies in less obvious places.

I've seen consciousness research done at universities tend to
suggest the possibility that human thought can affect the
outcome of random number generators on some small level when
performed enough times to be statistically valid. *That* is what
I want to see studied scientifically. I would like to know if
there is the potential in human beings that enables them to, at
times, do incredible things, and if perhaps there is truly
unexplained pheomena of one sort or another out there. I want to
know if there is something worth being concerned with. I believe
there is something ....usually, but like many of us in the
excluded middle, at times I wonder if it isn't ALL just a sham.
Most often though, I keep my mind open to the idea that there is
something worth studying- that a few of the reports of weird
happening have not been adequately explained and are not hoaxes
or delusions, that the tools of science and logic still have
something to be applied to. I don't have time to challenge every
single loon to an elaborate scientific test. I believe John is
100% correct here. If a guy says he can make the roulette wheel
land on black 100 times in a row, have him show Randi, but no
one has, or will in the near future, make such a claim and stand
behind it.

My main point is that people such as Randi are, in one sense,
being quite logical- "if you can do this, show me." And on the
other hand, somewhat dishonest. Going on the media circuit and
bragging that no one has taken your money, therefore "the
paranormal doesn't exist" is being simply dishonest, or at the
least, illogical, because you are simply attacking such an
exaggerated position that it goes without saying in the first
place. So no one can effectively remote view under scientific
conditions and be accurate anywhere near 100% of the time. Does
this surprise you? It sure as hell doesn't surprise me, because
I've never paid attention to such silly claims when there is no
supporting evidence anyway. But, do I think it's an objective,
logical, and honest thing to do? To say that because such a
thing can not be done perfectly, despite the claims of a few
vocal fringe believers, to mean that there is nothing worth
looking at in any of these areas, the outer, little explored
regions of science? Of course not.

Shirley mentioned the "secret item in a locked box" test that
Randi also pushes. In his example it was a ketchup bottle that
was the "target." Although in the previous paragraphs, I believe
I have addressed the situation and made my point to my
satisfaction, I cannot help but wonder if the old "it can't be
done, so it won't be done" dogma would come into play in a test
such as the locked box Randi mentioned. The one time someone
actually tells a die hard "anti-believer" (one who believes- and
yes I use the term believe- that all evidence of anything NOT
normal must either simply be chance or some trick they have yet
to figure out, because nothing outside of their belief system
even COULD exist! Similar to an atheist who denies all
possibility of G-d,which is, to me, just as illogical as anyone
who believes totally that there is without a doubt an
anthropomorphic one- anyway, when someonne who holds such strong
(anti)beliefs is confronted with the answer to the mighty
cabinet mystery, what's inthat damn cabinet, you can bet (you
can even bet a million bucks now that I think about it) that
you'd end up with someone in the know having "let the secret
out," or "let the cat out of the bag," "so please do it again 5
more times under stricter conditions, then you get the money."
Of course there's always the counter, "ok you did it once, the
odds are 76 trillion to one against that, but it could still be
luck, so" once again "do it some more to prove it." "Ah ha, you
didn't, you must've cheated (or been lucky) in the first place!"
I bring this up merely because I question such a test, and the
true logic and objectivity of many people who would promote such
a test.

Once, I believed that Randi would be the judge of what passes
the test, now I know he wants it to be so obvious that the
challenge is nothing more than hot air to shove in the face of
someone during a 30 second sound byte anyway, not science. At
first, I doubted the validity of Randi's challenge, now I simply
doubt the meaningfulness of it.



----------------------------------------------------------------
------ ---------- [John sent his thoughts on what I said above,
and I'm posting them below. ]

You make very good points. It is unfair if randi is going about
saying (or suggesting) that no psychic phenomena exists because
none has been demonstrated under the rigorous conditions he
proposes. I myself recognize that the phenomena is real, hard to
pin down but real - but it is not only rarefied, it is a rarity,
and is usually misrepresented and almost everyone who makes any
sort of claim re psychic phenomena is a fraud or self-deluding.

My feeling is that Randi's challenge is not aimed at people
experimenting with random number generators and statistical
anomalies in reading ESP cards; it isaimed at people who Make
Claims. Especially at people who charge for their services.
People like Uri Geller -- a guy who claims to get his powers
from a flying saucer orbiting Earth, as I recall.

And I don't believe Randi would demand that the black ball on
that roulette wheel (just as an example, of course) land on the
same number 100 times. I think he'd be impressed with, say, 14
our of 20 times. I don't think you'd have to show that the power
works every time -- but that it works in a way that is
undeniably real. Something inarguable. If an archer says he can
hit a distant target, and if he hits a really distant one 14
times out of 20, we accept his claim that he's a damned good
archer. But if he hits it a random three times in a hundred
times, and the average is two times, we're not impressed.

John Shirley




)+(
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."
)+(






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                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:11:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:01:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:33:12 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

Hi Roger,

I saw the post and even recieved a copy of it when it was
circulated privately. I did not respond to it then, and have not
participated since, because I felt that it was soliciting
'speculation' from potential respondants.

Because of the nature of my own personal involvement, I try not
to speculate publicly or on this list. I approach it all very
straight, sober and always above board. Seculation is a
circuitous activity where anyones 'guesses' are as good or valid
as anyone elses. In its place, its ok I guess. I just don't like
to indulge in it myself if I can avoid it. Believe it or not, I
am basically a very 'nuts and bolts' - 'show me the hardware'
kind of guy. People automatically assume that if you believe you
are being abducted by 'aliens' that your critical faculties
-must be- flawed/impaired. But that's not the case with me. It's
just not in my make-up to engage in idle speculations. I'd
rather deal with factual/ real. Nailing something concrete down.

I will be happy to answer _any_ questions for you that I can.
Please don't take my lack of response personally or as a snub.
Its nothing of the kind. I just don't go in for speculating
much. Nothing to do with you or the content of your post. I have
been reading them. <G>

Peace,

John Velez, Webmaster IF-AIC
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________





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                              Ohio UFO Meeting

From: UfoContat@aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 19:32:43 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:06:23 -0500
Subject: Ohio UFO Meeting

MORA Meeting


Mid-Ohio Research Associates

http://www.infinet.com/~moraman/mora

The UFO phenomenon, as unexplained as it still remains, is
none-the-less a real phenomenon that is happening in our world.
Whether it is caused by ETs, mass hysteria, psychic projections,
or whatever, it is a real phenomenon. The only difference is in
how much people pay attention to it.

We at MORA are paying attention and we think you are, too!

If you consider the UFO phenomenon a part of your world, whether
hoax or history in the making, join us for what promises to be a
special MORA meeting. Here are the details...

----------------------------------------------------------------


Join us at 7:00 PM
on THURSDAY, JANUARY 7, 1999
at the CHEMICAL ABSTRACTS BUILDING in COLUMBUS, OHIO

----------------------------------------------------------------


Chemical Abstract Services is a large multi-story office
building located 1 block north of Lane Ave. on Olentangy River
Rd. behind the Fawcett Center for Tomorrow on the northern edge
of the Ohio State University campus area. Watch for the small
Chemical Abstract sign, turn right, and enter through the main
building entrance.

----------------------------------------------------------------


Mid-Ohio Research Associates





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                       Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 17:21:49 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:09:45 -0500
Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:45:17 -0500
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
>>Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 13:31:03 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

>Regarding CB Moore's sightings, Brad Sparks has presented a new
>and novel explanation...namely, a "skipping" meteor, which is
>not an explanation that would have been considered scientific at
>the time of th sighting or at the time of Menzel's explanation.
>(Menzel, in FLYING SAUCERS, "cleverly" rewrote the sighting so
>it would be compatible with his own balloon mirage theory.)

->Sparks has presented a number of reasons why it might have been
>such a meteor. However, my own study of that sighting many years
>ago convinced me that it could not have traveled in a straight
>line. Sparks points out that an exp;oding meteor...or one that
>breaks into parts, might not travel in a straight lie to
>conserve momentum. Thus one might expect a slight deviation from
>linear of the path of the main large chunk of a fireball that
>"ejects" smaller portions. However, his appeal to the
>conservation of monmentum must be modified by the fact that te
>splitting, if it occurred, did not occur in a vacuum, as
>evidenced by the fact that the hypothetical meteor glowed
>brightly. The bright glow indicates friction and this means drag
>of the portions of the meteor. These extranous forces could
>prevent the simple momentum conservation from taking place,.

Bruce,

Wasn't this Brad's main point? Due to the aerodynamic forces,
momentum would still be conserved, of course, but because it
didn't happen in a vacuum the aerodynamic drag might have been
systematically greater on one side of the object than the other,
even if it were spinning, causing it to gradually alter
direction, as with a spinning curve ball, or, in an extreme
case, as a boomerang.

Can you argue that there's not one chance in a million that a
meteor could be subject to a sufficient systematic off-set
aerodynamic force to cause it to veer in its course by over 40
degrees? (You know how it is, if there was one chance in a
million, the CSICOP type would prefer to assume that's what
occurred.)

   Jim D.





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             Ballistic Missile Sighted Over Dr. Gesundt's House!

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 21:19:43 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:16:30 -0500
Subject: Ballistic Missile Sighted Over Dr. Gesundt's House!


>My advice to all concerned is to consume great quantities of
>egg-nog, possibly spiked with some of Jimmy Mortellero's fine
>spirits, and kick back to enjoy the holiday season. After the
>third mug, and the final nog, we'll all be seeing little green
>men and the debate will be solved.

>Take care, all.

>Roger Evans


Good advice, Roger. Should have taken it myself before
launching my ICBM with multiple warheads aimed at everybody I
liked and didn't!

"Humbug!"

So, by way of making a stupid excuse, I am way too close to this
problem, way too personally involved to press "SEND" without
waiting 24 hours.

I appologize to all. I don't drink, Rog! Now what the hell am I
gonna do? Hey, I sell it. I wouldn't actually _drink_ that
slop! Cheese!

Merry, Happy and God's Blessings, for Everyone.

Jim and his long suffering wife, God help the poor lady, Rosie.
She's singing Christmas carols. An' her in a wheel chair just
like Tiny Tim. Me? I'm just go ballistic. What a dope. What a
maroon!






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                           Re: Return to the Herd

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:11:56
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:18:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Return to the Herd

>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:32:36 PST

>>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:30:54 -0600
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>>>Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:11:04 PST

Leanne wrote -

>I consider myself a 'christian' (not Christian) in that I follow
>JC's tenet of "do unto others...", but there is no way I would join
>a church or organized religion and allow myself to be manipulated
>by such a group for their own self serving ends.

What's the diff?  Is it just the "Do unto others..." commandment
you follow or is all the commandments we real Christians believe
in?  Because going on your previous posts, you want us (the
list) to question anything you might believe in, and never take
your word for face value until you can scientifically prove
everything you say...

>(Yawn) She was known as a 'virgin' for social reasons - her religious
>/social culture referred to women as virgins for at least 2 reasons.

This is just one theory, I have heard many others.  Is there
proof of this?

>>>Many Abductees report a hightened sense of awareness and psychic
>>abilities which they did no possess prior to their
>>experience(s). Many have suffered physically for years prior to
>>their abductions, only to have their physical systems repair
>>themselves afterwards...

>>Still others, who were physically within the range of normal
>>physical parameters prior to their abductions, report that they
>>have sufferd physical changes, such as a complete loss of
>>"sensory feeling," in all parts of their body....And, contrary
>>to what the Physicians attempt to do or find out, they remain an
>>enigma...

>>I happen to know an "abductee," self pronounced, who suffers
>>this particular type of physical condition...It came on him
>>gradually over a period of ten years after his proclaimed
>>"abduction." He for all practical purposes, has stopped
>>ageing....He still looked like a man of about mid-50's, the last
>>time I saw him, about a year and a half ago, but he is now 72
>>years old.

>>If the doctors, neurosurgeons, etc., can't explain what has
>>happened to this man, how then can I?

>"It is 'unexplainable' therefore aliens did it"?

Can you prove otherwise?  Show me the proof the aliens were not
involved in some way or another.  Your logic of show me the
science can be used either way.  There is no hard concrete
evidence of the existense of extraterrestrial biological
entities, however can you prove they don't exist?  And
abductions aren't real experiences?

I know you don't have the answers, nobody does, I was just
making a point that taking such a hard lined attitude toward
abductions can sometimes be less productive than you hope.
Sometimes you need to listen to the stories of abductees, and
really hear what they went through before you can informatively
make judgements (or opinions as the case may be).

>>I can show you the man, in this instance, if you care to travel
>>here to see and test him for yourself....He has entertained
>>other investigators, hypnotists, & Medical Students which I have
>>brought to him...
>>

>"A man with odd symptoms equals proof of alien abduction"?

Can you prove it doesn't?

>>>As always - show me facts!

>Like I said . . .

I agree, show me the proof.

Have a great holiday, Leanne, and as us Christains always say
"Pardy Hardy"... Cheers





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                  Re: Need UFO Investigator In Vermont, USA

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 21:06:01 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:36:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Need UFO Investigator In Vermont, USA


>From: Ben Field <ben@abcfield.force9.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Need UFO Investigator In Vermont, USA
>Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:03:39 -0000

>Hi

>I am hoping that someone can help,

>I have been contacted by a Mr. James xxxxx (Age:32) from
>Essex.Crt.Vt USA, he has been telling me of a UFO incident that
>he had in 1981. The only thing is he would really like to talk
>to a UFO investigator, and as I am in the UK, I can't really
>talk to him in person.

>Here's where I hope someone can help, If anyone would like to
>investigate this incident please email me with your details, and
>I will pass them on to Mr James Savard. I found his story is
>very interesting.

>Here is one of James Emails asking for help:

>Ben

>Thanks for getting back to me, the reason why I didn't put every
>thing down is because I'm not fast with Email, or computers or
>typing I'm still new at this and its hard to get my experiences
>all down on email.

>If you do know someone close by who can help, this would be
>great. What I've seen really needs to be investagated and the
>area at cobble hill in Milton,vermont, but you know the elusion
>from a distance may not be right. So an Investargater is what I
>really need to tell this story to. Maybe something can still be
>found after all this time.

>Your help Ben is very inportanted to me.

>Thanks Again Ben
>James x xxxxx SR

>===============

>Please email me at: ben@abcfield.force9.co.uk

>All the best

>Ben Field
>BUFOD: http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk


Such synchronicity...  Christmas day, I will be flying into the
Essex Center area (where a cousin once living a few miles in the
hills is a seventh son of a seventh son) to visit my family
including one sister who lives in the Milton area.

I believe it is Walter Webb who wrote a book on an abduction
experience with  multiple witnesses that happen at a summer camp
on the shores of Lake Champlain near Milton in 1968.
Unfortunately, I cannot remember the title.  It was well
researched and well written. Possibly Walter Webb is still in
the New England area and still doing UFO research.  This may be
a start in James' search for an investigator.

Bye...  Ted..






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                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 22:21:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:44:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology



Hello yet again, gentle list folk!

The following will be in response to the December 21, 1998
message by Jan Aldrich. His remarks, edited for space, will
appear following a single arrow:

This first response was to my statement that I had been
"reliably informed" that there might be some important gaps
in the NICAP files."

>Well, how are we to make anything from this then?
>Is this information from a "reliable source" or from
>deduction. Perhaps you should see Hall's answer below.

The water has now become very deep indeed and like Indiana Jones
in The Temple of Doom we are about to reach the Sanctum
Sanctorum of ufology. Will we find treasure there or a
McDonald's(TM) gift certificate? Time will tell. Oh, about my
source, well, he's about as reliable as it gets but then that's
only my opinion, and we all know what my critics think of that.
And as I said, I'm still doing research. So, Mr. Aldrich will
have to wait.

Continuing, I said on December 21st:

>>"Mr. Hall has the REAL files of NICAP, the ones Donald Keyhoe
>>himself kept. . .in a safe, more on this file later."

And Mr. Aldrich said:

>And you called Hall to verify this when?

Well, I thought it was on the public record. . .for those who
were paying attention anyway. And as for calling Hall, why
would Mr. Aldrich think I would do that if I thought the field
was full of agents? What would my purpose be, to record Mr.
Hall's automatic untruthful response?

Continuing, I made a statement about the small number of
documents that would have to be pulled from NICAP's files to
greatly reduce their value. Mr. Aldrich then said:

>You know, Mr. Alevy, this gratuitous comments about finding
>intelligence agents under every bed seem to smacks of another
>person who use to wave things around in his hands saying, "I
>have in my hand a list..." Please tell us what the difference
>is?

I wonder just how much Mr. Aldrich really knows or remembers
about the 1950s and ufology. Keyhoe's organization was shot
full of moles, it's obvious and you can read about it in his
books. Here are a few examples for list readers from Keyhoe's
Flying Saucers Top Secret, 1960.

1) Page 50: Journalist "Brennard" warns Keyhoe he could get
  "booby-trapped"

2)Page 68: under deadline pressure to publish the first issue
 of the UFO Investigator Keyhoe nearly falls into the
 booby-trap of publishing a false story which would
 discredit him and NICAP. Who fed Keyhoe the story,
 a former Army Signal Corp member with access to
 the Associated Press wire. Keyhoe knew this
 individual had no way of timing his actions.
 Only a NICAP insider in 1957 would have had this
 Information. Read the whole story in chapter 4, The Hoax.

3)Page 108: Brennard warns Keyhoe he will be bushwhacked
  during his appearance on the NightBeat show.

4)Pages 131-132: After preparing a critical press release on
 his "hidden" cases and obtaining confidential witness
 cooperation the Air Force preempts Keyhoe and the witnesses
 withdraw. Bushwhacked again.

 NICAP was being torpedoed from within all through the late
1950s and early 1960s and after former DCI Hillenkoetter
publicly threw in the towel after deep-sixing a Congressional
investigation, well, NICAP was about cooked. Keyhoe had very few
close colleagues, make of that what you will. As for McCarthy,
Mr. Aldrich can just rail away about him all he wants. it will
do him no good.

Continuing with Mr. Aldrich:

>I talk to Richard Hall about once a week. If you look, I
>said "I called," as in called on the telephone. However,
>Hall does also have E-mail, but that is private, others
>in FUFOR communicate for the Fund. When I called Hall it
>was on another matter. However, I wanted to verify what
>I was writing in my post was true. You might try to
>verify some of the things you say before posting them, also.

Yes I read that you said you called. I specifically said that I
knew Hall had emailed as I don't rely on obtaining all of my
information from you Mr. Aldrich. Let's see was it Mr. Aldrich
who had given me that email address or some "dark source".

There are several interesting items here, several. The
primary one is the retiring nature of the custodian of the
amazing cache of information to be listed below. It is
apparent that Richard Hall's house should be carried as a
fire hazard since it is positively groaning under the
weight of all the material he has collected. I would be
more appreciative of this collecting if Mr. Hall were not
so deliberately retiring. That is, we apparently have
a museum-quality collection tucked away in the house of one
man who may approve or deny, at his leisure, the very few
attempts at access that no doubt pop up from time to time.
The gate is very narrow, as are so many things in what is
called ufology, and this itself is the problem.

My critics will say, "Well, why didn't you call about the
files?" And I say, it doesn't matter. To illustrate,
let's think about this: If I really wanted access to those files
would I be truly free to say what I thought about the situation
vis-a-vis those documents? And after I was permitted to view
them, in Mr. Hall's home, what would my relationship to him be
then, hm? Would I not owe him a personal debt? The world can be
a cruel place even with the best of intentions at play.

Continuing with Mr. Aldrich, I made a comment about Mr. Hall
and document security:

>I can't fathom what is being said here. Please clarify.
>I will say that Hall's whole house has his vast collection
>of UFO material, including some of files Ted Bloecher,
>Isabel Davis, James McDonald and a number of other people.
>This is a matter of record. I posted this all over the
>Internet nearly a year ago.

Well, it's a matter of record for those happy enough to be on
the relevant list serves and paying proper attention. And I
suppose it is a boon to the rest of us that a few people have
the time, money and access to pursue this arcania. But, you
know, it AIN'T like the New York Public Library, is it?

The fact is that all of this NICAP information, and much else
besides, exists with but one gatekeeper. Thus if you have a
problem with that gatekeeper you have a problem with everything.
Not only that, with one person owning these files it falls to
him (and those few he might chose) to determine what eventually
becomes truly public. That is, the expense is all his, at the
least, if he can't interest his friends in providing funds. And
all the while, this person and his friends might claim superior
authority concerning this information. Finally, if the
credibility of the owner ever does come seriously into question,
well, there goes the whole ball game. Any way you cut it is a
serious disadvantage to have so much information in one person's
hands, as his private property, and this situation should have
been rectified long ago, by the document holder, for the reasons
stated above. It just flat looks bad, period, and if credibility
with true outsiders was an issue, well, something should have
darn well been done." Long ago FUFOR should have donated these
materials to a university under a curators supervision to be
cataloged and indexed. That way scholars and individuals would
have access to these materials. What purpose is there in having
them in private hands in a private home?

Continuing with Mr. Aldrich:

>You ought to try a little research yourself some time,
>Mr. Alevy, why the NY Public Library and Columbia University
>have not been mined out of UFO material.

Yeah, right, I have dragged nine or ten people kicking and
screaming onto this list, in opposition, because I have not done
any homework. I think you know better. Or perhaps Mr. Aldrich
would have me off chasing the nth thousandth sighting report, or
pursuing research on Leon Davidson's microfilms at Columbia
University, as Mr. Aldrich once suggested to me when I first
contacted him about the objectives of Project 1947. Leon
Davidson was the former Los Alamos worker, chemical engineer and
ufologist who along with Donald Keyhoe claimed deep CIA
involvement with UFOs and Agency sponsorship of the Robertson
panel. Davidson had convinced himself that the Agency, not the
Air Force, carried most of the responsibility for UFO analysis.
Davidson was close to the truth except that he was lead and
mislead by the CIA. As CIA historian Gerald Haines noted in his
article, _A Die-Hard Issue CIA's Role in the Study of UFOs,
1947-90_. Below is a quote from the unclassified _Studies in
Intelligence Vol.1 No.1, 1997_.

        In another attempt to pacify Davidson, a CIA officer,
        again under cover and wearing his Air Force uniform,
        contacted Davidson in New York City. The CIA officer
        explained that there was no super agency involved and
        that Air Force policy was not to disclose who was doing
        what.

Some things never change: new dogs, old tricks.

Continuing with Mr. Aldrich:

>The NICAP files were in a wear house, at the
>time, Hall and several others had a limited amount of time
>salvage the material.

Well, you see, this is a staggering admission. (I will here
indulge in a Clarkism and point out that the spelling of
"warehouse" is as I have performed it.) Let us just imagine,
imagine, that there might have been something of a truly
sensitive nature in those files, files sitting in a warehouse.
The problem is real, as Mr. Aldrich admits:

>Did they possibly leave something important behind?
>Undoubtedly.

And let's close the loop on this and say that if something that
was once known to be in those files is NOT there now, well, it
might have just been left behind. That's a problem, you know.

Continuing with Mr. Aldrich:

>Please notice that Mr. Alevy is completely silent on my test of
>important documents in the NICAP files, the letters to and from
>McDonald from Isabel Davis, Ted Bloecher, and Richard Hall.

Yes, indeed, I'm keeping my powder dry. But it doesn't really
matter, does it? That is, the automatic "out" you will use is
right there, in the paragraphs above - undoubtedly.

Continuing with Mr. Aldrich, who is commenting on my comments
concerning the number and contents of NICAP government
documents:

>In any case the amount of government material was low.

Well, this is a matter of opinion, isn't it? And what about the
content of that "low" number of documents? And anyway, the
really good ones could have been left in that warehouse, right?
Yeah, I'm truly excited about getting out the old checkbook to
delve into the mystery of the NICAP files. In this movie good
old Indiana Jones never even buys an airline ticket because the
Temple of Doom turns out to be a broken down double-wide on
cinder blocks out in the county.


Continuing with Mr. Aldrich, who is now discussing Mr. Larsen:

>He was not a deep thinker like Hall, or a researcher like
>Gross. . .

Once again, this is purely a matter of opinion, isn't it? If I
were in a self-destructive mood I might just post up some of the
results of my research.

>I am sorry, Larsen was a nice fellow, he had lots of good
>ideas, but he was not too keen on analyzing situations.

I cannot tell you how glad I am to have this on the public
record! It was really too much to ask! A few more faux pas like
this and you might be watching the submarines Don mentioned!

Continuing:

>No, they plainly show that this guy's view was rather limited.
>Again, not much in analytical department.

Luckily, my readers are going to get a slightly different
impression of Mr. Larsen.

Continuing with Mr. Aldrich, he is commenting on his background:

>I did occupy the staff position of Intelligence NCO and several
>times Acting S-2, however, I also occupied the position of
>Assistant Adjutant, that doesn't make me a admin/personnel
>specialist. . .

Hm. Don't I remember Mr. Aldrich bragging about revoking
someone's security clearance? Hey, if a guy's got his finger on
the button I don't care what his MOS is, he's doing the job.

Continuing with Mr. Aldrich, no intelligence expert, who is now
giving his opinion on intelligence operations:

>With notable exceptions, I am unimpressed with military
>intelligence especially on the Operation Level. Seems to me
>they can't find their backsides using both hands.

You know, I'm not that impressed with Minuteman missiles, with
notable exceptions. The damned things sometimes don't come out
of their holes in full-up (no warhead!) testing. But then I'm
no expert on Minuteman missiles.

We now are winding up and Mr. Aldrich is summarizing:

>Believe me, I am tired of people seeing intelligence operatives
>behind every tree. And I am more than a little tired of people
>accusing every one of being an intelligence operative.

You know, so am I and that's why I qualify every noun. Take Mr.
Clark's advice and say that I "hint darkly." That is, "I'm tired
of people hinting darkly that there are intelligence agents
behind every tree." This is more effective AND more accurate!
However this is not politically correct and may offend some list
readers. Instead you could say I "hint grayly, not too darkly
nor too lightly."


Finally, Mr. Aldrich says:

>Of course, I am a CIA operative, why none other than Capt.
>Bruce Cathy identified me as such. I must have been the
>youngest CIA agent on record. My next book will be "I Was a
>Teenage Secret UFO Operative for the CIA UFO Disinformation
>Program." I wrote to Cathy with a couple of question and before
>I knew it I was accused by "a reliable source" of being a CIA
>agent.

One of the serious problems in America today is that from time
to time and from place to place there really _are_ CIA agents
behind every tree. For instance, the "scientist" members of the
Robertson Panel who got to cash those $50.00 checks from The
Company (CIA). Of course, we only have Thornton Page's word for
that, on the public record, so it could be in error. That is, I
for one have a hard time believing that Dr. Page would work even
for the CIA for that small a sum. I bet it was $75.00.

Continuing, now from Mr. Hall himself, through Mr. Aldrich --

>I, too, would like to know who Mr. Alevy's alleged "reliable"
>source is, because if that is the source of his totally
>inaccurate statements or interpretations, he/she surely is
>highly unreliable.

Let's just say, speculating wildly;-) that there really are some
legitimate questions about the integrity of the NICAP files and
some quite important items are missing. Is this going to be a
problem for anyone? No. There is, you see, the small matter of
that warehouse. It's like a Greek Chorus, it explains everything
in advance! Undoubtedly.

Mr. Hall continues:

>I'll take his assertions one by one:

> (1) I have the real NICAP/Keyhoe files. Sorry; wish I did.
>Mrs. Keyhoe allowed me to search through his desk and they
>looked all over the house. We never succeeded in locating the
>files that he kept somewhere in Luray. All that I was able to
>retrieve was a smattering of his papers and manuscripts. They
>included a few Air Force congressional liaison letters, and a
>few duplicate Government documents such as JANAP 146, which I
>do have on file and can be inspected. I also have a pretty good
>notion of what files he kept in Luray, mostly for book-writing
>purposes. There were no big, "secret" files of Government
>documents. Jan Aldrich is right; we existed to disclose
>Government documents, not to hide them.

So, there we have it. Keyhoe's confidential files are not only
said not to exist but to have never existed. Sorry, that won't
wash. Are list readers supposed to believe that 40-plus years of
work on the part of Keyhoe devolved to the paragraph above?
Well, I guess some will. And who said those files were going to
be "big"? I rather imagine they would have fitted into a wall
safe, don't you? As for what NICAP existed to do, well, one of
the things it was doing was trying to get Congressional hearings
at a time when "ufology" consisted of real big-leaguers, not the
boy scouts we see in the field today. Big boys play rough and
the leaks were flying. Anyone truly familiar with Keyhoe's
written corpus would sooner believe in the tooth fairy than the
paragraph above. (_Flying Saucers Top Secret_ has an exposition
on Keyhoe's efforts to have the Senate Subcommittee on
Investigations under Senator McClellan hear NICAP's evidence and
how they were stymied at every turn) Keyhoe probably at some
point destroyed the material himself. . .or passed it on to a
close colleague on the QT, unbeknownst to even his wife.

Continuing with Mr. Hall --

>(2) The security of the NICAP files in my era was quite sound.
>Trusted people like Jan had full access to all of the open
>files. Of course, we kept some away from public inspection to
>protect our sources. I usually had a lock file in my desk.
>Again, there were no big caches of secret or otherwise
>Government files, just an occasional letter or document from a
>witness provided to us in confidence.

Well this is an amusing assertion. NICAP had continual problems
with leaks of its plans and booby-traps as Keyhoe documents in
Flying Saucers Top Secret. Now regarding Jan's access, once
again, the discussion devolves into the "big government cache"
versus the "little government cache" and really the difference
is no difference. What was the disposition of such material from
the Keyhoe era and, for that matter, of the material mentioned
above? Was it returned to the original source? Was it destroyed?
Has it been retained? List readers cannot help but get the
impression that Mr. Hall is trying very, very hard to convince
them that NICAP was no big deal and there never was anything
REALLY interesting in that material. Hey, I wouldn't want
hundreds of people trying to get access to my basement, either.
And that's the problem, it's HIS basement we're talking about
here.

>(3) Mr. Alevy has read into Major Keyhoe's statements more
>than is really there. I saw the certified documents and
>participated in handling them. They were of the same variety as
>cited above, and there was no large number of them. I would
>guess that many or most have since been made public, but I am
>not going to take the time to do an inventory of ancient
>history.

Well, here we run right up against a huge problem, don't we. Who
can stand against this judgement by the owner of the files who
has made them his personal property? That is, a brick wall has
been hit and that's an end to it. The "New Ufology," which seems
so obsessed with "documentation" and such, is going to run into
a buzzsaw when it tries to foist off these kinds of documents
and this kind of "documentation" onto anyone with a real degree.

Continuing with Mr. Hall --

>Those and many more just like them are among the papers of the
>Colorado UFO Project. I probably have some of them in my files
>So what? Why all the mystification? And certainly there were no
>bombshells of INFORMATION that we didn't release, as he seems
>to be implying.

Once again, we're talking about HIS files, his personal
property. And unless one has a lot of time and money, and wants
to make a pest of himself in someone else's house for several
weeks, one is in a bit of a spot, isn't one? Yes, one is.

The problem with this situation is that there are a very few
people making vitally important records their personal property
and simply sitting on them, for years and years, and then using
the authority of those files as weapons against those who dare
to make certain suggestions or interpretations. This "New
Ufology" is a pale shadow of what existed 40 years ago, for a
time -- a ufology that truly knew what was important.

Gary Alevy






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   Dec > Dec 24

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 22:33:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:46:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology
>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:51:21 -0600

>>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:03:19 -0500
>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>Hello again, gentle list folk!

>>This message will be in reply to the December 17th missive of
>>Jan Aldrich but first I must make a few preliminary remarks.

><snip>

>>It's your friends that sell you down the river. Sherm who are
>>your friends today?

>>Gary Alevy

>>P.S. Congratulations to Richard Hall on his fortieth anniversary
>>in the field since joining NICAP.


>Gary,
>You are too kind... Your sincerety leaves me breathless...

Thank you, but sincerity had nothing to do with it!

But I digress.

>So Gary, level with us. What is this relentless derisive thread
>really all about? Really, I want to know. Given, that you are
>a reasonably intelligent, perceptive, eloquent person, you must
>know in advance that most readers here will not agree with your
>conjecture about and interpretations of the past and present
>actions of the people you attack. Yet you persist in your
>arguments. Do you really consider this a fair and acceptable
>way to promote your upcoming book? Does this pernicious
>mongering give you some additional gratuitous pleasure? Are we
>unwitting test subjects for your tabloid promotions?

1) Am I to tailor my beliefs to those of you and your friends
just because of some considerations of "majority rule?"

2) Yes, I persist, to a degree.

3) I could care less about promoting my book on this list. It
has been mentioned basically to provide a cheap target for
gratuitous attacks as it is obviously irrelevant to the
substance of the discussion.  Some fish just can't resist the
bait.

4) It's possible that you are some kind of unwitting something,
yes. Exactly what I'll leave to the psychiatrists.

>Am I being unfair in my characterization of your writing in
this >thread?  Simply, no.  Nor am I being deceptive in my
request. I >really want you to set aside your current style of
discourse and >in some friendly manner tell my why you are
writing this >material. I will accept most any explanation.

You know, Ted, I don't have any friends posting to this list so
why should I be friendly?

>With a flourish, the orchestra pounds out the opening refrain
of >the theme song. Rushing across the stage, I shove Cilla
Black >into the pit. Throwing my arms wide, I turn to the
audience and >belt out:

>What's it all about...  Gary???

I would think it's all pretty obvious and the fact that you
don't get it says volumes more about you than me.

>Bye... Ted..

Yeah, good bye. . .and good luck!





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              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 00:05:57 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:52:42 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 01:30:03 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>I have _no idea_ what you "detect," but if you _read my posts_ I
>have a habit of saying exactly what I mean. I'm not too
>difficult to understand.

John, the above item you posted was for Tim Brigham, but I'm going
to use it against you. I'm sure you won't mind.

In another post, you jumped on Roger Evans for his suggestion
that when you offered the photo for our collective perusal, you
did so with the implication that it was "proof". I'm
paraphrasing here because my "delete" finger works slightly
faster than my brain (which still isn't very fast). You said in
one of your first complaints about the lack of action taken by
this list on your photo that everyone whines about needing
proof, but when someone supplies it everyone runs. roger was
correct, you most certainly did suggest that what you had was
"proof".

Sorry, but you aren't as clear as you think you are.
Additionally, the impression you made when presenting your case
was that of a person charging in here for a fight. It's only
natural that people would distance themselves a bit.

I hope you're more tactful when you approach doctors.

Greg






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   Dec > Dec 24

                Pix Of Eros Asteroid Show Artificial Working

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 08:02:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:56:34 -0500
Subject: Pix Of Eros Asteroid Show Artificial Working


Source: "alt.alien.visitors", 24 Dec 1998, 06:01:24 GMT.

Stig

*******

From: cdrboshek@aol.com (Cdr Boshek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Asteroid Pix Show Mining Ops
Date: 24 Dec 1998 06:01:24 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

No photos have been released from yesterday's asteroid fly by.
Could this rumor be a true explanation?

From: daydisk2@valhalla.webtv.net
Date: Tue, Dec 22, 1998 11:15 PM
Message-id: <6688-36807C6F-18@newsd-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

Telephone gossip at John Hopkins [University] is that the first
pix of Eros show artificial mining machinery, terraced craters,
a broken dome at one end, and at least two holes all the way
through the brick-shaped asteroid. No release of original pix
expected. A team of photo interpreters from NPIC is to work all
night for a sanitized boring set to release late on Christmas
Eve.







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              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 02:10:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:58:49 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:08:01 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:53:59 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 00:47:35 -0500
>>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

Hello Roger,

You respond:

>If I missed one of your earlier posts, then I'm sorry for the
>confusion. However, you need to read your own posts, dude.

etc.etc.etc.

At this point I'd just like to thank you for your insightful and
thoughtful contributions to this thread. You have certainly
focused your attention (and ours) on the 'more important
aspects' of what was presented here. I am in awe of your
perceptiveness and your ability to get to the nitty-gritty of a
matter. I have no idea where this thread may have taken us
without your constructive input.

Thanx for setting me straight man. I hadn't realized how far I
had strayed from the light until you showed me the way. You're
the best Roger!  ;-) 'wink!' <VBG>

Peace,

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________






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                              Niklas Greetings

From: Niklas Rasche <nrasche@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 02:55:41 PST
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:01:21 -0500
Subject: Niklas Greetings


Wishing you all belated Solstice Blessings, a Joyful Christmas,
a Happy Chanukah and a bounteous New Year.

Peace, Hope and Freedom,

Niklas Rasche







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                               Happy Holidays

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 07:38:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:02:08 -0500
Subject: Happy Holidays


Just a quick note to all, wishing that you and yours have Joyous
and Safe Holiday, and may the New Year bring us closer to an
understanding of the phenomonenon that we all devote our time
and attention to.

Peace,

Steve Kaeser
steve@konsulting.com





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                       Season's Greetings & List Break

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:31:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:31:43 -0500
Subject: Season's Greetings & List Break




Gentle Subscribers & Readers at The Archive,

May all your wildest Holiday Wishes come to pass - may
Santa bring you all the digital toys you desire and
may this increasingly strange ole planet come together
in peaceful co-existence.

Unless something of extreme need to distribute comes this
way, UFO UpDates will be off-line until Saturday PM, Eastern
Time.

To you and yours, a Joyous, Warm & Peaceful Holiday

Errol & Sue

------------


Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, our best
wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible,
low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the
Winter Solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable
traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or the
secular practices of your choice, with respect for the
religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or
their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at
all... and a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and
medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the
generally accepted calendar year 1999, but not without due
respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures, and
without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability,
religious faith, choice of computer platform, or sexual
preference of the wishees.

Disclaimer:

By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms. This
greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely
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the wishes for her/himself or others, is void where prohibited
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This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual
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                               Laura Lee Show

From: webmaster@lauralee.com
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 04:31:44 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 13:23:30 -0500
Subject: Laura Lee Show


LAURA LEE E-NEWS
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**Wishing you a wonderful Holiday and New Year! Just in case you
will be on vacation and away from your computer, we include the
line-ups for our live shows on both Saturday, Dec 26 and
Saturday, Jan 2nd. In addition, we include notice of two
additional shows on Christmas Eve and on New Years Eve,
exclusive to the Internet (though theyll sound just like radio.)
Yes, Laura Lee was asked to work, so we decided to make a party
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RADIO SHOW GUEST/TOPIC LINE UP - Saturday, December 26, 1998
By Laura Lee

Rodney Smith (Re-scheduled from last week)
The Wisdom Traditions teach the continuation of the soul beyond
death. What evidence do we have for that? We've talked with Near
Death Experiencers, we've gone to Quantum Physicists for
scientific data on consciousness, and we've talked about
experiments demonstrating mind over matter. Tonight, we'll talk
with Rodney Smith, whose work in a hospice for the dying has
given him plenty of stories about the eternal nature of soul.
He'll tell us about family members seeing the soul leave the
body. One person reported merging with the departing
consciousness, riding it right out of the body, and seeing the
world through their loved one's eyes. Rodney has himself felt
the presence of beings in the room with someone who was dying,
helping them to make the transition. He'll tell of premonitions
and other psychic experiences all related to this cross-over,
and share his own musings on the evolution of consciousness, and
the themes of Death and Resurrection. Rodney Smith is the author
of "Lessons from the Dying." http://www.lauralee.com/rsmith.htm

Bob Kiviat
Heres the inside scoop on how hoaxers faked the infamous Alien
Autopsy film, the famous Patterson Big Foot film, and Billy
Meiers spaceships fromthe Pleides. Bob Kiviat has produced
several documentaries for Fox Television. His latest, Worlds
Greatest Hoaxes: Secrets Finally Revealed airs Monday, December
28 at 8 PM. More info at http://www.lauralee.com/kiviat.htm

Leonard Shlain

A surgeon who is fascinated by the history of ideas, Shlain
suggests that humankind moved from a goddess orientation to a
patriarchy about 5,000 years ago, when writing went from
pictograms and hieroglyphs which encouraged holistic, whole
brain functioning, to a more abstract alphabet requiring more
left-brain functioning. Shlain has also tracked numerous
incidents of parallel breakthrough of new ideas in art and
physics. Art, he says, interprets the visible world, while
physics charts its unseen workings, and artists have
foreshadowed the discoveries of science. Hell cite examples from
classic Greek sculptors to the Impressionists to Andy Warhol,
and from Aristotle to Einstein and Quantum Physics. Shlain is
the author of The "Alphabet and the Goddess: The Conflict
Between Word and Image" and "Art and Physics: Space, Time &
Light." http://www.lauralee.com/shlain.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JOIN US for our NEW WEEKDAY INTERNET ONLY SHOW
Internet Show Homepage: http://www.lauralee.com/online.htm

Thursday, December 24
Laura Lee's Christmas Eve Party: Join the Family

As Laura Lee and Paul celebrate Christmas with her entire family
-- mom and dad, brother and sisters and their significant
others, neice and nephew, and of course, Chants the dog -- each
family member gets a chance to sit in front of the microphone in
Laura Lee's home studio and chat. Call in with your Holiday
Greetings to 1-800-485-1923. Want to see candid home pictures of
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screen.

Friday, December 25
Christmas Day: Wishing you a Happy Holiday!

Monday, December 28
Gil Levin

Levin's experiment on the Viking Lander mission to Mars in the
70's was the only of four to indicate the presence of live
microbes in the Martian soil. Yet, the official word has been,
"there's no life on Mars." Levin believes otherwise. His stories
of how NASA suppressed the evidence for life on Mars, and
continue to do so, is startling. His new research, recently
presented to an Astrobiology conference, makes the case for
enough water on Mars presently to support those microbes, more
water than found in the sands of Death Valley, CA, where live
microbes have recently been discovered. If microbes are alive on
Mars, he says, then NASA's plans to bring rock samples back from
Mars in future missions could be disastrous for all life on
Earth. http://www.lauralee.com/levin.htm

Tuesday, December 29
Jeff Brailey

Jeff Brailey is concerned about the anticipated explosion of
doomsday cult activity as the Millennium approaches. A retired
U.S. Army Master Sargeant and medic, and former member of the
Joint Humanitarian Task Force, Brailey helped with the clean-up
operation of the Jonestown Massacre. His account is chilling.
http://www.lauralee.com/brailey.htm.

Wednesday, December 30
Robert Detzler

Robert Detzler uses a pendulum to dowse a series of charts he
developed. We'll explore the esoteric realms of energy and
space/time and healing techniques based on energetic basic
building blocks of the Universe, transference of energy, and
mandalas.

Thursday December 31

Laura Lee's New Year's Eve Party - Join our circle of friends as
we welcome in the New Year. Chat with a colorful cast of old and
new aquaintences. We'll chat about our hopes and predictions for
the coming year, what we anticipate as the year 2000 approaches,
how the Paradigm Shift is moving along, and whatever else comes
up. (For this show, the call-in number is 1-800-485-1923)

Friday, January 1
New Year's Day: Wishing you all the best for 1999!

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click here: http://www.lauralee.com/online.htm

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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 26

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 12:27:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 13:31:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 22:33:07 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology
>>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:51:21 -0600


>>What's it all about...  Gary???

>I would think it's all pretty obvious and the fact that you
>don't get it says volumes more about you than me.

>>Bye... Ted..

>Yeah, good bye. . .and good luck!

>Gary


Hmmm...

If ever there was a better example of a delusional paranoid
personality, I must have missed it.  I didn't detect anything
like this in the past couple of years of Gary's contributions.
This is a mystery.

Regardless, there is no value in my just casting aspersions
about Gary.  So, let me turn to the rest of you.  Do any of you,
in any way, support, understand, or find any value in Gary's
presentation?  Do any of you sympathize or support his demeanor
or behavior?  Has anyone in any forum, maillist or newsgroup,
supported or defended Gary?  Is anyone aware of the meerest
sliver of supporting evidence for Gary's allegations?  Can
anybody anywhere give me the slightest glimmer of understanding
of any of his points or actions?  I will accept help on this
from anywhere that it may come.

Bye...  Ted..





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 26

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 18:40:03 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 13:33:04 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer
>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:42:36 -0600


>Forgive me. I am a little distracted while I write this. You
>see, I have taken some fine 1/2 inch polyester rope, tied the
>most luxurious hangmans knot in it, and tightened it securely
>around my neck with the knot just behind my spine. While
>typing, I am checking the ruggedness of my porch overhang and
>measuring the drop to the ground to be sure that I will fall far
>enough for a clean snap. Why, do you ask, am I undertaking such
>drastic actions?

>I have been to the University of Texas at Arlington, upstairs in
>the Special Collections Division. I have used the cheap
>magnifying glass supplied by the kind women at the desk to study
>the recently made 16 by 20 prints that can be held and inspected
>closely. In all four of the JBJohnson prints available there, I
>have clearly seen the debris of what is ONLY a weathered rawin
>device. I have been to the RPIT site, and in all the images, no
>matter how manipulated, have seen ONLY the same debris.

Ted,

I hope the either the rope or the porch beam broke and you are
still able to read this.<g>

Instructions on how to view Glyphs within the Fort Worth Photo's
(No aids required in 11x14 prints and larger)

These instructions refer to the photograph known as the
Rame/Dubose shot, the only image of the 4 showing 2 figures,
those of Gen Rodger Ramey and Thomas DuBose.

The item which CAN be seen with the naked eye in this image is
located towards the lower left corner of the print, on what have
been taken to be the cardboard/foil reflector panels, the RPIT
group refer to this feature as The Glyph Panel. The panel you
need to inspect is that which "runs" out of the bottom edge of
the picture and who's left and top edges are seen to have white
"tape" attached. Note that within the images at least some of
this "tape" is a hollow tube like structure containing a "wire
frame" I have images which show this clearly.

To return to the panel, from the corner of this lower "foil"
panel created by the two "tape" edgings you should be able to
see a feature like a "railway track", two parallel lines,
running accross the panel in a diagonal fashion, had the panel
been intacked I imagine it would have run corner to corner. Once
you have identified this feature, take note of the foil
background within and without of the two lines. Outside the
lines the foil appears crumpled and chaotic but within the two
lines the foil seems smoothed and calm. Now look closer inside
the lines, you should now be able to see clearly defined shapes
some of which are features on the surface while others seem to
be "stamped or embossed" and raised from the surface of the
foil. Those symbols which can be seen best have clear sharply
defined edges, the flash picks out many of these edges to good
effect, their placement and execution seems quite deliberate and
highly unlike the result of mere chance and random crumpling as
has been mooted as their explanation.

As I write I have my 11x14 of this picture on the table by me, I
can quite easily make out the symbols in this print just by
glancing down at the image, it IS that easy given a good print,
and with the small jewellers eye glass I have too, it just
brings out the full facination of these symbols.

I might add that for those unable to have access to large prints
of the RameyDuBose image, if you turn to even a small
reproduction of the picture, even the one in Kevin's book, the
diagonal "track" feature accross the panel can usually be made
out though the symbols are only hinted at.

>So, how in hell, do you ask, can this explain my desperate
>response? Simple, I cannot comprehend, I cannot fathom, I cannot
>rationalize how a group of educated, knowledgable, perceptive
>men can succumb to such self delusion, such twisted
>interpretation. A single example of their flawed science: In the
>areas where they are outlining glyphs, the glyphs are traced in
>a relatively flat outline although we know that the surfaces on
>which they are supposedly imprinted are heavily crumpled. If the
>glyphs were real images on this crushed surface, the simplest of
>them would be barely perceptable. They could never be easily
>traced.

Simple, the area where the glyphs as descibed above are located,
does indeed appear to be flat and relatively undamaged, though
the foil close by seems roughly crumpled, intresting in itself
and indicating a possible non-uniformity in the construction of
the "foil panels"?.

As with the "tape", possibly all is NOT as it at first seems.

>As I stand on my porch railing comtemplating this world where
>intelligent men proudly defend their new-found mythology (while
>marveling at the soft and supple feel of modern polyester,) I
>look over my shoulder fully expecting to see a young girl in a
>blue flowered dress come skipping across the porch holding out
>to me a fudge brownie with a tag attached reading "eat me."

>Bye... Ted..


That's ok she gave me the bottle with "Drink Me" on it.<g>

Neil.



-------------------------------------------------------

Neil Morris@Home.
Email:             Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 26

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:25:19 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 13:43:08 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer
>Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:42:06 -0500

>>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:11:46 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>>I would not want this thread to drop, and would strongly support
>>John Velez and any others in gathering statistics on this issue.
>>A very brief preliminary survey of the UK abduction literature
>>does not show a single abductee from any ethnic minority.
>>John Rimmer

>Does anyone have numbers for the percentage of abductees in the
>generel population for the US vs UK (or other) populations? Is
>it about the same percentage per population? How about
>developed vs developing countries? The study of so-called Third
>World countries would also be fascinating (although difficult
>for both technological and cultural reasons--what we call
>abductions are probably classified very differently in cultures
>relatively uncontaminated by western influences).

>Brian

Dear Brian and List...

Damned good question Brian. Darned if I have the answer tho. But
I do have some statistics which I worked out during my tenure as
Dr. Gesundt's VP of Research and Development, just one of the
many hats I wore working for that great man. You gotta live him!

So let me answer each of your postulations with the research
data from my Fresh Wine data base on the percentage of abductees
who drink Dr. Gensundt's Fresh Wine Product, vs. those who do
not. OK?

>Does anyone have numbers for the percentage of abductees in the
>generel population for the US vs UK (or other) populations?

The percentage of abductees who drink Fresh Wine products on a
regular basis as opposed to the percentage of abductees who don't is
quite telling. Only 1% of Fresh Wine customers are abducted while
more than 30% of "non-Fresh Wine consuming peoples" are abducted.

>Is it about the same percentage per population? How about
>developed vs developing countries? The study of so-called Third
>World countries would also be fascinating (although difficult
>for both technological and cultural reasons--what we call
>abductions are probably classified very differently in cultures
>relatively uncontaminated by western influences).

Oh no, Brian, I have the data. In developing nations, the
percentage of abductees from Fresh Wine consumers is still less
by 27.39% than the general population who does not consume the
product.

And as far as Third World countries, hell, we do some of our
best business in those places, altho at times, it is a little
tricky setting up distribution during those pesky bush wars.
However I have found that many of these wars cease fire as soon
as Dr' Gesundt's Freshly Made Delivery Truck rolls up to the
front. You gotta love them trucks.

And as far as your remark is concerned, that last remark about
"uncontaminated peoples" ... well, anybody who consumes Fresh
Wine is automatically contaminated so it does not apply.
However, and this is crucial to our data analysess's,
"contaminated" Third World people have fewer abductions IF and
_ONLY IF_ they drink our stuff.

So the moral is, drink Dr. Gesundt's and you'll either have
fewer abduction experiences or you won't remember 'em so it
don't matter.

We are unable to determine which of these is true.... have fewer
or remember fewer. But really, Brian, it surely doesn't matter
anyway, right?

Jim for Dr. G,





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 26

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:38:16 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 23:22:24 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 14:24:50 -0500 (EST)
>From: Sheree Cox <cox@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>When John Velez sent his original e-mail out concerning the
>X-Ray, I never got the impression he thought it was proof of any
>kind and I certainly didnt get any kind of indication he wanted
>people to go wow!  I felt he was asking for assistance of some
>kind, but of course people started to read things into the
>e-mail.  It's good to question everything so you can distinguish
>between the hoaxes and the truth, but there are times when the
>nit-picking just becomes a habit and not responsible research


Hi Sherry,

I don't know how you could not have gotten the impression that
John was proffering proof, after reading his attack on the
members of this list for not stumbling all over themselves over
his first post. You are right about his asking for assistance.
That's not the issue, and no one has a problem with that.

It's his manners.

Greg





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 26

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:17:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 23:27:43 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 00:05:57 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>>Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 01:30:03 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>I hope you're more tactful when you approach doctors.

Yourself and Roger have chosen to focus on the most trivial
issues imaginable. That's all I will say on that.

I would like to thank those of you who focused on the material
and offered helpful and constructive advice and information. If
necessary, I will utilize the various resources that many of you
made me aware of. (FUFOR etc.) It was _most_helpful_ and just
what I needed to know. Thank the Major that were enough of you
out there who managed to stay focused on the meat. As you can
see, some became so consumed with criticizing the 'plate' it was
served on, they missed the Filet Mignon completely! Without your
input it would have proven an exercise in futility.

Thanks guys.

The second I get any results I'll post it for you. Anyone who
compiles such information will be welcome to add it to their own
database at that time.

Till next, . . .

Peace,

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 26

                 New Email Address for Kal Korff/Fox Special

From: Kal Korff <KalKorff@KalKorff.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 18:28:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 23:30:23 -0500
Subject: New Email Address for Kal Korff/Fox Special



Dear List:

My new email address is KalKorff@KalKorff.com

I hope this new email address is much easier to remember, and
there is now this sole source set up for me receiving my emails.

In a few weeks, the TotlResrch@aol.com email address will quit
receiving emails, so please use this new address.

Also, as expected, I have been inundated with emails ever since
the announcement of the Fox special, exposing Meier, Alien
Autopsy, etc., as hoaxes.  Why, noneother than Jim Dilettoso has
begun emailing me. Yesterday, I had to peruse through over 600
of them, literally.

I am going through these emails, and have responded directly to
many of them, and am busy composing responses to the Lists such
as Updates here, and I should be posting those later tonight,
time permitting.

Please make note of my new email address, again, it is:

KalKorff@KalKorff.com


Thanks very much, and be in touch soon,

Kal






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 26

                       Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 00:13:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 23:51:54 -0500
Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting


>Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 17:21:49 -0800 (PST)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>,
>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

>>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:45:17 -0500
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
>>>Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 13:31:03 EST
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

>>Regarding CB Moore's sightings, Brad Sparks has presented a new
>>and novel explanation...namely, a "skipping" meteor, which is
>>not an explanation that would have been considered scientific at
>>the time of th sighting or at the time of Menzel's explanation.
>>(Menzel, in FLYING SAUCERS, "cleverly" rewrote the sighting so
>>it would be compatible with his own balloon mirage theory.)>

>->Sparks has presented a number of reasons why it might have been
>>such a meteor. However, my own study of that sighting many years
>>ago convinced me that it could not have traveled in a straight
>>line. Sparks points out that an exp;oding meteor...or one that
>>breaks into parts, might not travel in a straight lie to
>>conserve momentum. Thus one might expect a slight deviation from
>>linear of the path of the main large chunk of a fireball that
>>"ejects" smaller portions. However, his appeal to the
>>conservation of monmentum must be modified by the fact that te
>>splitting, if it occurred, did not occur in a vacuum, as
>>evidenced by the fact that the hypothetical meteor glowed
.>of the portions of the meteor. These extranous forces could
>>prevent the simple momentum conservation from taking place,.

>Bruce,

>Wasn't this Brad's main point? Due to the aerodynamic forces,
>momentum would still be conserved, of course, but because it
>didn't happen in a vacuum the aerodynamic drag might have been
>systematically greater on one side of the object than the other,
>even if it were spinning, causing it to gradually alter
>direction, as with a spinning curve ball, or, in an extreme
>case, as a boomerang.

Momentum is conserved in a "closed" system with no external
acting on the moving bodies. In this case the presence of
atmospheric friction would amount to external forces acting on
the "system" which would consist of the initial meteor mass and
the subsequent pieces. One presumes here that Moore did not
observe the splitting of the hypothetical meteor because the
pieces that split off were too small to create a noticeable
brightness in th daytime sky. But tht also means that the split
was certainly not in half or even in quarters. In order to get a
sideways push of the main meteor there would have to be numerous
pieces splitting off with some relative velocity transverse to
the main velocity vector....and all these "ejections" would have
to occur in the same direction in order to make the main body
"turn left" (as seen from above). Just how much momentum would
have to be generated transverse to the main velocity vector in
order to affect a 40 degree turn to the left? I haven't tried to
figure it out but I'm betting it would be a lot. I'm sure it
would require a large force between the main piece and the
ejected pieces. and the "integral" of a smaller but continual
force during the time of the observation. A calculation could be
done for empty space with some assumptions about the initial
mass and velocity, but it woudl not give the correct answer when
atmospheric drag effects are added.

>Can you argue that there's not one chance in a million that a
>meteor could be subject to a sufficient systematic off-set
>aerodynamic force to cause it to veer in its course by over 40
>degrees? (You know how it is, if there was one chance in a
>million, the CSICOP type would prefer to assume that's what
>occurred.)

Yes, I know how CSICOP works.

I am not a meteor expert, but I suspect that any observation of
a meteor deviating by as much as 40 degrees would be copnsidered
(a) a miracle and (b) worthy of publication in a geophysical
journal.

With regard to (b), I would challenge anyone, who is able to
provide a good theoretical justification for considering that
that Moore's observation could have been of a turning meteor ,
to write a paper and submit for publication.





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   Dec > Dec 26

               Eros And Phobos: Similar Signs Of Artificiality

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 10:37:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 23:59:47 -0500
Subject: Eros And Phobos: Similar Signs Of Artificiality


Source:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/media/mailing/archive/iufo/msg02096.shtml

Stig

*******

IUFO Mailing List

Re: NUFOIA: First pix of Eros show artificial mining machinery..

From: "Harv Howard"
Subject: IUFO: Re: NUFOIA: First pix of Eros show artificial mining
machinery..
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 19:36:13 -0600


Folks--

Yesterday with the email of the NEAR aborted close flyby to the
asteroid Eros, I had a notion to make a couple of comments about
the news release. First, another probe seemingly fails to
deliver at the right moment, very similar to the failed probes
to Phobos by both this country and Russia.

Second, there is a definite connection between Phobos and Eros.
The connection being a confounding problem for conventional
astronomy in that while those bodies seems to be carbonaceous
chrondites, similar in compositional type to most asteroids,
they also have the similarity of a disturbingly lighter mass
than they should have given their understood composition versus
their dimensions. To overcome these discrepancies, which is
considerable for the mass of Phobos to the amount of about 20
per cent, the astronomers and astrophysicists have had to
conclude that Phobos has large amounts of lighter mass (per
volume) material inside. They speak of cavities of water inside
as an explanation without a good explanation for how so much
water got inside.

One Russian scientist has openly suggested "voids." That
thought, which automatically brings up thoughts of intelligent
manipulation and living quarters to some of us, must send chills
down the spines of those Western scientists wanting to keep us
from thinking about Mars and its satellites being part of the ET
package. Phobos, by the way, every since the 1970's Viking
missions, has amply displayed sights of artificiality. But NASA
would rather have you look at the more recent and  heavily
touted images of Jupiter's moons and discuss concepts of
primitive life, not the evidence of a tool-wielding kind. NASA
learned from the Viking images that it cannot reveal too much
about some bodies in space. Evidently, we now can add Eros to
the list. (And it goes without saying that the Eros pictures
eventually released probably will not be  exactly what was
imaged--but we know that game already, don't we?)

HH

<snip>







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                        Eros: First Close-Up By NEAR

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 00:07:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 00:07:33 -0500
Subject: Eros: First Close-Up By NEAR

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
To: updates@globalserve.net
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 11:06:32 +0100
Subject: Eros: First Close-Up By NEAR


Source: The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory

URL: http://near.jhuapl.edu/iod/000/index.html

TIFF-link on the page.

Stig

*******

NEAR image of the day for 1998 Dec 23

(Photo montage)

NEAR's First Close-Ups of Eros

***


 This montage of the asteroid Eros was assembled from images
acquired by the Near Earth Asteroid Rendezvous (NEAR) spacecraft
on Dec. 23, as the spacecraft flew by the asteroid at a distance
of 2,500 miles (4,100 kilometers) at 1:43 p.m. EST. This montage
shows the first nine of 28 views of Eros that were obtained
during the flyby. The images were taken between 10:44 AM and
12:44 PM EST as the spacecraft range closed from 7300 miles
(11,100) km to 3300 miles (5300 kilometers). During that time,
the asteroid completed nearly half of a rotation. The smallest
resolved detail is approximately 1650 feet (500 meters) across.

A firing of the main engine at 5 PM EST December 20, designed to
slow the spacecraft for insertion into orbit around the
asteroid, was aborted by the spacecraft. Contact with ground
controllers was temporarily lost, but was regained at 8 PM EST
December 21 when autonomous spacecraft safety protocols took
over and transmitted a signal to the ground. All spacecraft
systems appear healthy and operational. Within hours, a flyby
observation sequence was developed and uploaded to the
spacecraft. Over 1100 images were acquired by the multispectral
imager, to determine the size, shape, morphology, rotational
state, and color properties of Eros, and to search for small
moons. The infrared spectrometer measured spectral properties of
the asteroid to determine what minerals are present, and the
magnetometer searched for a natural magnetic field. Analysis of
the spacecraft radio signal will yield bounds on the asteroid's
mass and density.

Options for rescheduling firing of the main spacecraft engine
are currently being examined, and could lead to Eros rendezvous
and orbit insertion as early as mid-1999 or as late as May 2000.
Eros is NEAR's second asteroid encountered. On June 27, 1997,
NEAR flew by the main-belt asteroid Mathilde at a range of 1212
kilometers (750 miles).


Built and managed by The Johns Hopkins University Applied
Physics Laboratory, Laurel, Maryland. NEAR was the first
spacecraft launched in NASA's Discovery Program of low-cost,
small-scale planetary missions.
See the NEAR web page at

http://near.jhuapl.edu

for more details.

Feedback to  Mike Rogers:

michael.rogers@jhuapl.edu

erosnear.jpg






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                 "Wang's" Major 'Revelations' on Campbell &

From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 12:48:30 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 00:28:37 -0500
Subject: "Wang's" Major 'Revelations' on Campbell &


Errol,

I thought you would enjoy the following rant from the ACC Forum.
What's funny about it is that I have exchanged correspondence
with "Dean Kain," an insufferable skeptic who, if a UFO crashed
into his house, would probably conclude that it was a hailstorm.

There are a few interesting posts on their forum right now,
including one from a reader who says he has confirmed some of
the properties of capacitors that ACC's claims suggest, and is
now more inclined to believe the T-CAP is real.

<snip>

All the best to you. I have enjoyed receiving the e-mail version
of the mailing list, although the web version has the useful
feature of identifying the number of original lines of text. It
would be nice if you could work that in to the e-mail titles.

[Sorry Pat, my CI2C&DS stipend doesn't cover _that_ kind of
detailed work <VBG> --ebk]


Cheers,
Pat McCartney
Auburn, Calif.


-----

Interactive News Service!

Errol Bruce Knapp confirmation, Glen Campbell confirmation -
both are using half a dozen fake email addresses to sully ACC's
Roswell 1947 story. Just these two guys...

Posted By: Ed Wang <ufoufo@fiberia.com>
Date: Wednesday, 23 December 1998, at 1:05 a.m.

Have you been contacted by

"Anthony MacDonald"

"Capt Nimo"

"Jilain"

"Dr. Gates"

"The Big Guy"

about ACC and either found you were being threatened, or it was
suggested that ACC was hoaxing the Roswell 1947 Story?

Well, believe it or not, you were receiving mail or contact from
GLEN CAMPBELL, self-described UFO researcher, a CONFIDENTIAL
EMPLOYEE of a Government Agency with an official code name and
compensation for his out of pocket expenses. These are only a
few of the fake names Campbell posts on the Web under.

Have you been contacted by

"RobertGates" of AOL

"Dean"

"Dean Kain"

"EMS"

"Brad Gates"

"Nikos"

"Corey"

"Mike"

"Pudin Tang"

and told not to pay any attention to ACC's Roswell Story?

Well, in that case, you've been contacted by ERROL BRUCE KNAPP,
a self- described UFO buff who also claims to be a part of
Canada MUFON, a UFO group, and he, two, is a CONFIDENTIAL
EMPLOYEE of the United States Government (but a different
department, called the C-12) whose salary is paid for in hours
worked and whose expenses are covered by said Government Agency.

You've BEEN HAD by two very talented EMAIL / NEWSGROUP / FORUM
Posting Experts who received their training in, of all places,
Fort Meade, Maryland.

They are experts at creating false identities and false
impressions on the INTERNET.

Their job?

They are part of a special Task Force, called the
"Counter-Intelligence, Information Control and Dissemination
Section" (CI2C&DS), a group of clever, psychologically prepared,
and well trained experts, who use PC's to manipulate information
on the Web.

The US Government maintains DOZENS of operative exactly like
these two, whose true identities will never be known to us, even
though they both have appeared on local TV shows. Their
backgrounds are carefully laundered before they become covert
operatives.

And, they have nearly unlimited resources, if the objectives are
important enough.

They manipulate sensitive information topics on the Web, by
making websites, filing newsgroup messages, posting to BBS's and
observing the comings and goings of the Web. The information and
effects they reap are fowarded to and directed by dozens of NSA,
CIA and Military Intel officers. They are CHESS PIECES on a vast
Chessboard that is being maintained to perform 'Information
Direction' on the Internet - the elimination of Leaks, Threats
and Control of Sensitive Subjects.

I will be providing you with more information over time. I do
not have any feedback from ACC on this particular story, but I
have researched it very carefully in dark alleys and smoke
filled rooms over the course of the past month. That's why I
'trapped' Errol Bruce Knapp into revealing his identity by
sending him an encoded message and waiting for him to release
pieces of it here and elsewhere, under several of the code names
he is known to operate by.

It was a tactic designed to satisfy me with sufficient proof
that he is who my research says he is.

One of the tactics used by these two and their peers, is to
recruit young people with willing, mallable minds, using Chat
Rooms and Gaming Groups, and intrigue them into performing work
for them. They also get help from "mercs", guys whose job in
life is to make it troublesome for you and me, and who have
shadowy, OC connections and lead 'on the edge' lifes - between
the shadows, as it were.

More to come: Stay Tuned here, or on my new MajorDomo Email
List, which will be up and running in the near future.

Ed Wang

['Wang'..... Doesn't that mean something durty in 'Murikan? --ebk]





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   Dec > Dec 27

                        Korff Spams The News Groups!

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 12:31:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 00:37:14 -0500
Subject: Korff Spams The News Groups!


Kal Korff sullenly spewed the following in Usenet over
Christmas:

>Dear List:

>Over the past year or so, certain individuals have made the
>claim that I am a "UFO debunker" or some sort of secret CIA
>agent and other, offensive thing.

No Kal -- certain individuals assert that your research is done
by proclamation, that your results are skewed in favor of your
own personal (and stunted) views, beliefs, and dark agendas, and
that your conclusions ignore propriety to return us to the
status of bush-eating cave dwellers. Any of these things is much
more offensive than _all_ of the fatuous strawmen that you would
suggest for us, here.

>I hereby CHALLENGE these accusers to PROVE this. WHY?

. . . Proved over and over. Seems like Art Bell had you
squealing  like Ned Beatty in "Deliverance" a while ago
regarding your crass and libelous prevarication. Your
associations with Kiviat, and the canted publisher of your
cheap debunking efforts suggests more than a paucity of
trustworthy credibility -- and, lastly, your failure to respond
intelligently and convincingly to civil questions posed on the
UFO UpDates List out of Toronto . . .speaks to a plethora of
indicators that you are assuredly NOT what you _say_ you are.

>Because the TRUTH is, this is NOT so!

Anybody that uses the word "Truth" as often as you do (and
capitalizes it) has got to be as crooked as a Rocky Mountain
logging road. SO!

>I, of all people, should and certainly do know where I stand on
>the subject of UFOs. I am NOT a debunker, but simply a
>RESEARCHER, period!!

"[YOU] of all people"? Seems to me that the _quality_
researchers (on _this_ planet, anyway) disagree with you, Mr.
Korff. I wonder why that is?

>Deal with it.

. . .Daily! And anywhere you say!

>Yes, I have exposed hoaxes, and some humdingers, but so what!??
>THAT's what a good UFO researcher is supposed to do--
>investigate and call >them >as they are.

More unsubstantiated and vacuous proclamations, Mr. Korff.

>Again, let these naysayers come forth with their "evidence" or
>simply acknowledge the TRUTH and get on with it.

You begin to bore me, sir. That's a _good_ thing. Perhaps I
won't respond to you as often <g>.

>Well, any challengers or takers?

They've always been there -- will continue to be there, and are
there as we speak! _You_ don't respond to _them_, Mr. Korff!
There's some real irony there, don't you think?

>Respectfully yours,

I don't think your brands of intellectual cowardice, and ethical
bankruptcy is very respectful at all -- no rational person
_would_.

>Kal Korff Author, "The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want
>You to Know" and >"Spaceships of the Pleiades: The Billy Meier
>Story"

Your tiresome tomes of turgid TRVTH!   <=D6>   ! I know you're
spamming the ng's to drum up an audience for your latest
televised retreat to the medieval . . . I think a more
enlightened use of their time is to look for a re-run of Mutual
of Omaha's "Wild Kingdom" and watch THAT. We're waiting for you
in Toronto, Kal. Please grace us with a visit. < . . .maybe a
"Barney" episode>

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 24 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while
burning at the fundamentalist's stake.






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                                Mexican UFOs?

From: Peggy Dillard <pegspirit@webtv.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 11:33:15 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 00:39:34 -0500
Subject: Mexican UFOs?


I'm interested in the numerous sitings over Mexico.  Is there a
web site that gives reliable info on this?





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                      Korff Spams The News Groups! - #2

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 14:35:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 00:45:52 -0500
Subject: Korff Spams The News Groups! - #2


Kal Korff unctuously oozed:

>Dear List:

>Over the past year or so, certain individuals have made the
>claim that I am a "UFO debunker" or some sort of secret CIA
>agent and other, offensive thing.

<Snipped pernicious posits, artless assumptions, and empty
elocutions>

On reflection, I think it is the faux think-cloak of guileless
respectability that you pull around your self for cover,
camouflage, or concealment that makes me see red when you float
your unconvincing assertions. I've searched _my_ feelings
regarding a direct relationship between how mad I get with how
right they/you might be. I'm genuinely concerned that I may be
too quick to accept the anomalous in a vain attempt to escape,
say, a cruel blood, tooth, and claw reality that we maintain for
ourselves in uneasy deference to the men you SAY you don't work
for . . .<g>. You are, perhaps, an innocent true believing tool
in your own right, but I don't think so, Mr. Korff. With regard
to you, every one of my bells go off to signify that the road is
closed, the poke is empty, or the path's an illusion. I think
you're a shill, sir, a mechanism to jerk us back and forth
across the line of credulity so hard and often we don't know
WHAT to believe. I hammer YOU so incessantly because, I suppose,
you're the most obvious of the bottom stirrers, and can be so
readily exposed. Everything you are seemingly about,
irrespective of your loss leading, and probably fabricated, UFO
sightings, wordlessly suggests that EVERYTHING about UFOs is
bunk! I can perform an ACTUAL search of about one night sky in
twenty to discover that that is, simply, just not true. I put
_that_ together with the thinking of brave people like Van
Gemert, Zeiler, Rudiak, Friedman, Gaines, Hynek, et al -- stir
in the counter arguments persons such as yourself, Todd, Stewart
--other *respected* pundits of your mainstream host, and
discover that something is going on that you are working
_passionately_ to keep us from looking at, thinking about, or
discovering. The harder you work, and the more frenzied you are,
the more _convinced_ I become that this is so. Perhaps it's the
*seemingly* openhanded, you-can-buy-a-car-from-me attitude you
typify, that puts my teeth on edge in aggravated irritation. It
is the very real possibility that you will be _successful_ that
is the kicker, I suppose -- the final injury on top of insult as
the truth you *champion* is subverted to sell soap for your
shortsightedly misleading publishers, producers, and pundits.

<sigh>

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 24 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.
--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 24 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while
burning at the fundamentalist's stake.






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   Dec > Dec 27

                            Alfred's Odd Ode #286

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 09:11:42 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 01:27:31 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #286


Apology to MW #286 (For December 26, 1998)

It's all about our courage, and the lack of it thereof, that
festers in frustration and incurs profound disgust. It portends
our total failure to complete the final test -- to separate the
wheat from chaff, or to act our very best. It shows the path to
shadows, which is short _enough_, and steep. It casts us in a
sallow light, and in it we shan't see to reap.

No one _wants_ the obvious -- that we _lack_ complete control.
That we're at the whim of forces far beyond what we are told.
That our living time is borrowed, and we do not _know_ a thing.
That a sword of sullen Damocles, _surly_, hangs from threads of
string. That our science falls afoul with lights that pulse
through evening skies. That scientists are cowards at a feeding
trough of lies? That hard nosed talk is easy when you're calm,
remote -- detached. That everything you hold so dear's too
quickly gone, too soon dispatched.

Go the distance; pay the price; admit at last it's not so nice.
No one cares for John Ford's courage, that he's in jail,
despised -- discouraged. Johnny "V" would say, "use me," (!)
he's found the guts you fear, you see. With wit and grace -- and
bravery . . .style, it's obvious he'd stay the mile -- going
_more_ than half way, where, he's reaching out, and _you're_ not
there. Lost in easy, crass belligerence, you're brave enough to
act indifferent; challenged by their righteous cries, you say
"not so," with _downcast_ eyes!

And this a list (of honored minds) a shared desire, space, and
time. We're the few that talk the walk, but few of us will walk
the talk. We're the ones to make the speeches, but acting like
mere fleas or leeches on a corpse of arcane study, we won't cop
-- our feet get muddy!  We're scared of laughter, sneering
peers, we won't fit in -- "They'll think we're queers"!  We keep
our distance from the edge that begs (beseeches!); still, we
hedge! _Hope_ untruth's at last supplanted, we're soothed,
betrayed, then disenchanted -- lost in murky may-have-beens on
which we, sadly, must depend.

It's all about a lack of courage we contend with -- I disparage
We're the ones to find out why! We're the ones to ask and try!
We're to _live_ reality! We're to rise up from our knees! !
We're to question obfuscation! We're to feel a _new_ elation!
We're to live like folk, not fleas! We would live our _new_
decrees! We're the ones to press the issue; we act as if we're
made of tissue! We won't crawl upon our knees! We shall not live
with past's disease. We're the ones that look up high, and see
the lights that thread our skies! We won't suffer to be teased,
hoaxed or played, or even squeezed. We shall protest their
disrespect as they protest our cries and threats. We shall
_find_ just what we _please_ concerning truth -- the stuff we
NEED!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Leave us not retreat to wounded frowny pouties, or easy
recriminations. Let us look, instead, into a mirror for the
first assumption of blame, or the reason for that first thrown
stone. None of us has the dead lock nut on the aggregate
crazyness, and perform a general disservice to suggest that we
do.

Restore John Ford!

--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 24 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while
burning at the fundamentalist's stake.





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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 27

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 11:57:18 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 08:24:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology
>Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 12:27:44 -0600

>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology
>>>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:51:21 -0600

>>>What's it all about... Gary???

>>I would think it's all pretty obvious and the fact that you
>>don't get it says volumes more about you than me.

>>>Bye... Ted..

>>Yeah, good bye. . .and good luck!

>>Gary

>Hmmm...

>If ever there was a better example of a delusional paranoid
>personality, I must have missed it.

<snip>

>Regardless, there is no value in my just casting aspersions
>about Gary. So, let me turn to the rest of you.

<snip>

>.. Do any of you sympathize or support his demeanor
>or behavior? Has anyone in any forum, maillist or newsgroup,
>supported or defended Gary? Is anyone aware of the meerest
>sliver of supporting evidence for Gary's allegations? Can
>anybody anywhere give me the slightest glimmer of understanding
>of any of his points or actions? I will accept help on this
>from anywhere that it may come.

>Bye... Ted..

I (LH) will, just on gut reaction, cast some asparagus about.

I see only one consistent pattern here. To wit:

1) Alevy insinuates that Dr. J.A. Hynek is/was a government
  disinformant, acting against the best wishes of ufology.

2) Everyone who knows better jumps in, and defends Hynek's
  good name, and others equally defamed.

3) The more rational among us, most notably Jerry Clark, will
  demand proof! Over and over and over again.

4) In response, Alevy provides anything and everything else.
  One may as well debate with a cuckoo clock .. BUT!..

5) The 'proof' will all appear in a book! soon to be published,
  one way or another.. stay tuned and keep your cheque
  books at the ready!

Nice try Gary.

As the Irish say, G'luck


- Larry Hatch







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                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: "Stan Friedman" <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 22:48:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 08:38:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology
>Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 12:27:44 -0600

<snip>

>Regardless, there is no value in my just casting aspersions
>about Gary. So, let me turn to the rest of you.  Do any of you,
>in any way, support, understand, or find any value in Gary's
>presentation? Do any of you sympathize or support his demeanor
>or behavior?  Has anyone in any forum, maillist or newsgroup,
>supported or defended Gary?  Is anyone aware of the meerest
>sliver of supporting evidence for Gary's allegations?  Can
>anybody anywhere give me the slightest glimmer of understanding
>of any of his points or actions?  I will accept help on this
>from anywhere that it may come.

>Bye...  Ted..

I first met Allen Hynek in the late 1960s and saw him in a
number of different places after that including his home, Idabel
Epperson's home in LA ,at MUFON Conferences., Etc.

I thought he was naive about both interstellar travel and
government secrecy and I strongly believe that Jim McDonald was
certainly a more persistent and better investigator. But I never
saw the slightest hint of Allen covering things up.

As I once said there is no point in criticizing a good washing
machine for being a poor dryer. He was not a dynamic aggressive
person and often sounded like an apologist ufologist. But I saw
no sign of the things Gary has conjured up.

Ditto for Sherm Larsen.

First thought that came to mind was his following up my
suggestion to Industrial Research and Development Magazine to
devote one of their monthly reader reply polls to UFOs. Because
of his actions they did it, twice.

As I pointed out in IUR later, a majority of those professonals
who expressed an opinion said UFOs are real.

It is certainly not true that Allen and I agreed about
everything. But I just can't find any basis for Gary's claims.

Stan Friedman






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                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 23:09:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 08:40:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 12:27:44 -0600
>Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 13:31:03 -0500
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

Previously, Ted wrote:

>If ever there was a better example of a delusional paranoid
>personality, I must have missed it. I didn't detect anything
>like this in the past couple of years of Gary's contributions.
>This is a mystery.

>Regardless, there is no value in my just casting aspersions
>about Gary. So, let me turn to the rest of you.  Do any of you,
>in any way, support, understand, or find any value in Gary's
>presentation?

No.

>Do any of you sympathize or support his demeanor
>or behavior?

No.

>Has anyone in any forum, maillist or newsgroup,
>supported or defended Gary?

No.

>Is anyone aware of the meerest
>sliver of supporting evidence for Gary's allegations?

Gary who?

Later,
Roger Evans
(Part of the Tag Team Conspiracy)





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                         Re: The Skeptical Believer

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 00:24:50 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 09:03:44 -0500
Subject: Re: The Skeptical Believer


>From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:33:02 -0600
>Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:59:13 -0500
>Subject: The Skeptical Believer

Previously, Tim offered this report regarding "The Amazing
Randi" and his standing offer of one million dollars to anyone
proving physic powers or abilities:

>As for the challenge tests... First, he said, "I don't design
>the tests." So there's no need to make it all Randi's doing.
>There are various scientists involved. As to the self evident
>proof issue, Randi says that claiming the money because you came
>up with the right answer on the ESP cards fractionally more
>often than would be likely by probability is not acceptable --
>because that can be accounted for by chance. There is lots of
>variance in what is probable; that's why it's called "probable"
>instead of "for sure". That sort of test is just too vague, too
>arguable, to trickable, too open to interpretation. It has to be
>definitive proof. One example: They have a locked cabinet at
>the foundation offices; they change the secret object in it
>every so often. He challenges psychics to tell him what it is,
>what it is definitely. If it's a ketchup bottle, say "It's a
>ketchup bottle". Don't say, "it's more long than it is squat and
>it's not yellow or blue and glass is involved, perhaps". Say
>it's a ketchup bottle.

>These people are not giving away a million dollars for arguable
>"indicators". They are giving out a million buckeroos in
>exchange for definite proof. I don't see what's unreasonable in
>that. The bottom line is, the burden of proof is on the
>claimant.

<snip>

>"If you can do it and get a million bucks for doing it, why not
>do it?" Randi asked. And he went on, "If I go out on the street
>and see a man with a violin and bow in his hands and if I say to
>him, If you play the violin for me I'll give you a million
>dollars, you bet he'll play the violin for me, and fast." But
>the famous psychics refuse to "play the violin" to get the
>money.

The problem with the above scenario is that Randi wants absolute
results from a world of inabsolutes. For instance, he could say
that he'll give one million dollars if your car started 365 days
in a row. I know of no car that reliable, even new ones, and
certainly cars are more reliable than fleeting and
underdeveloped physic abilities.

This is not to say that physic powers do not exist. No doubt,
"gut instinct" or intuition play a part of everyday life even
for The Amazing Randi, though he'd never consider such a thing
to be "physic" on any level. None the less, people all over the
world successfully depend on such unexplainable insight to guide
them regarding very important things such as business, stocks,
search and rescue, teaching, etc.

However, what Randi wants is absolute dependability. He wants a
physic to be right on the money every time or it doesn't count.
For instance, if someone comes in and says that the secret
object in the cabinet is a bottle of steak sauce instead of a
bottle of ketchup, then this person clearly has no physic
abilities according to Randi, despite the billions of other
objects that might have been named. What's bogus and unfair
about this setup is that everyday life must be dealt with in
shades of gray, but not physic powers. And the problem with this
type of yardstick is that it doesn't take into account the
natural variances one would expect from a totally natural
ability produced by the human body.

Take human eyesight, for example. Ten different people with
different degrees of vision might give ten different
descriptions of what they see in the great distance. If only one
gets it right, then the other nine are blind, using Randi's
yardstick of non-achievment. So instead of recognizing even a
partial display of physic ability, it's all or nothing. In
essence, The Amazing Randi is a hustler. He knows that the odds
are in his favor, even if he asked someone to do something as
automatic as writing their signature exactly the same twenty
times in a row. It just won't happen. Even an Olympic caliber
sharpshooter won't hit the bullseye every time. But, using
Randi's measurements, one miss means the guy couldn't hit the
side of a barn; close to the center doesn't count.

As mentioned before, The Amazing Randi is also a magician.
Therefore, he reasons that if he can figure out a way to
duplicate through trickery what someone else claims is natural
physic ability, then that person is a fraud. Using this logic,
putting lifts in his own shoes doesn't confirm that Randi is
shorter than other people; it really means everyone else that
seems tall is actually using lifts, too.

I have no doubt there are frauds out there. And I'm sure Randi
has helped to expose many of them. But his methods and
zealousness of his approach are becoming more and more highly
suspect. The Amazing Randi would be even more amazing if he
looked closely at what people _can_ do with their minds and not
dwell on what they _can't_ do. Considering the number of people
he's studied over the years, it seems a tremendous waste of a
good data base.

Later,

The Amazing Roger Evans





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              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 00:57:11 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 09:08:32 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:17:42 -0500
>Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 23:27:43 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>>Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 00:05:57 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

Previously, Greg had offered:

>>I hope you're more tactful when you approach doctors.

John responded:

>Yourself and Roger have chosen to focus on the most trivial
>issues imaginable. That's all I will say on that.

>I would like to thank those of you who focused on the material
>and offered helpful and constructive advice and information. If
>necessary, I will utilize the various resources that many of you
>made me aware of. (FUFOR etc.) It was _most_helpful_ and just
>what I needed to know. Thank the Major that were enough of you
>out there who managed to stay focused on the meat. As you can
>see, some became so consumed with criticizing the 'plate' it was
>served on, they missed the Filet Mignon completely! Without your
>input it would have proven an exercise in futility.

John, I am truly at a loss, here.

In a previous post, you "thanked" me for pointing out where
things got off course. I guess you were just being sarcastic
since you couldn't resist the dig above. I'm really
dissapointed. Since you consider the issue we responded to
"trivial", let me take a moment to remind you of what you
actually wrote and how "trivial" it was to you then:

>Have you noticed that after posting a copy of an x-ray from an
>abductee that there have been absolutely no comments or remarks
>on it?

<snip>

>I have been listening to people whine; "Show me some proof" for
>years on this list. But each and everytime an attempt is made to
>provide it everyone falls silent and the thread just dies.
>Armchair ufologists, all talk, no substance. Everytime I put up,
>everybody shuts up.

Then later you declare:

>if you read my posts I have a habit of saying exactly what
>I mean. I'm not too difficult to understand.

All of which came on the heels of you declaring that we were all
in the wrong for interpreting your x-ray as an offering of
"proof" on your part! First, you lament lack of participation by
members of the list. Then, when you get it, you don't want us to
remember what you actually wrote so you can guide the
conversation to the conclusion that suits you.

At this point, it doesn't matter, John. You started this
argument with the post above. Now that people have addressed the
issues you brought up, it's all of a sudden "trivial"?

What a waste of time....

Roger Evans



Later,

Roger Evans






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                      Re: Korff Spams The News Groups!

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 02:09:41 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 09:20:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Korff Spams The News Groups!



>Subj: UFO UpDate: Korff Spams The News Groups!
>Date: 12/26/98 9:53:14 PM Pacific Standard Time
>From: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)

>Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 12:31:09 -0600
>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Korff spams the News Groups!


>>Over the past year or so, certain individuals have made the
>>claim that I am a "UFO debunker" or some sort of secret CIA
>>agent and other, offensive thing.

>No Kal -- certain individuals assert that your research is done
>by proclamation, that your results are skewed in favor of your
>own personal (and stunted) views, beliefs, and dark agendas, and
>that your conclusions ignore propriety to return us to the
>status of bush-eating cave dwellers. Any of these things is much
>more offensive than _all_ of the fatuous strawmen that you would
>suggest for us, here.

>>I hereby CHALLENGE these accusers to PROVE this. WHY?


KAL KORFF:

On 15 February 1998 I sent you an email and the next day, Philip
Mantle posted it on UFO UpDates, as published below. You have
not responded to either my email or its posting. If you are
indeed a serious researcher and expect to develop any
credibility it would seem that you would want to "get it right."
Perhaps you have just been too busy writing your NEXT book to
bother to cover up your cat holes on the last one.

Some Questions about Korff's Book on Roswell:


From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 00:09:40 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:36:16 -0500
Subject: Some Questions about Korff's Book on Roswell


Forwarded Message:


From: JBONJO@aol.com
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:52:26 EST
To: TotlResrch@aol.com [Kal K. Korff]
Subject: Some Questions about Your Book on Roswell

I am the Roswell UFO Crash Photographer that you quote in your
book, 'The Roswell UFO Crash -- What They Don't Want You to
Know'.  Since we never have met or had any conversation I am
curious and therefore am requesting the basis for several
statements published in your book:

"General Ramey allows the press to enter his office and
photograph the actual flying saucer wreckage, although they are
not allowed to touch it.  One of the photographers present is J.
Bond Johnson, who takes several pictures..." p. 28-29.

FACT: I was the ONLY photographer present to photograph the
wreckage in General Ramey's office.  In fact, NO OTHER
photographs ever have been produced of Ramey, DuBose and Marcel.
I was left alone in the office for a short time while awaiting
the arrival of General Ramey and during that period unwrapped a
package of the wreckage and did my best to arrange it for a
useful photo.

Incidentally, my hat -- I was the only civilian present so it
must have been my hat! -- is shown on the chair in the
background of several of the photos.

I did not take the Irving Newton photo and have no information
as to who did. It must have been taken subsequent to my
arranging the crash wreckage pieces since they obviously are
still arranged the same way on the floor of the general's
office.  There have been speculations that Newton was
photographed by a FWAAF base photographer after I left and that
the photo then was released to the press along with the
"cover-up" press release on the evening of 7/8/47, which quoted
Newton.

--

"A short time later, the shredded remains of an ordinary weather
balloon are brought into Ramey's office and quickly substituted
for the real saucer wreckage," p. 29.

FACT: It has been well established by ufologist researchers that
there NEVER was any 'substitution' of any wreckage whatsoever.


--

"At the official press briefing that follows the 'bait and
switch' maneuver, General Ramey announces that the whole flying
saucer affair has been a mistake, and that the debris recovered
by Maj. Jesse Marcel is nothing more than the remains of a
weather balloon." p. 29.

FACT: There is no known record of ANY "press briefing" by
General Ramey other than the casual comments he made to me
during my photographing of him, Colonel DuBose and Major Marcel.
These comments made only to me were a denial that he knew the
nature of the debris being photographed.

--

"THE BOND JOHNSON FACTOR ...At that time I was briefed on the
idea that it was not a flying disc as reported but in fact was a
weather balloon that had crashed....  Almost the first thing
that Ramey said was, "Oh, we've found out what it is, and you
know, it's a weather balloon." p. 125.

FACT: I have been quoted in the past as making statements
similar to these. There is no basis in fact as to these remarks,
I never have made any such statements since this does not in any
way coincide with any recollections or records that I have of my
visit to General Ramey's office on 7/8/47.

--

Your anticipated reply at the earliest possible time will be
greatly appreciated.

J. Bond Johnson

http://www.ufomind.com/people/j/johnsonj/

<snip>





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                       Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 00:10:53 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 09:25:17 -0500
Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

>Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 00:13:56 -0500
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


>Momentum is conserved in a "closed" system with no external
>acting on the moving bodies. In this case the presence of
>atmospheric friction would amount to external forces acting on
>the "system" which would consist of the initial meteor mass and
>the subsequent pieces. One presumes here that Moore did not
>observe the splitting of the hypothetical meteor because the
>pieces that split off were too small to create a noticeable
>brightness in th daytime sky. But tht also means that the split
>was certainly not in half or even in quarters. In order to get a
>sideways push of the main meteor there would have to be numerous
>pieces splitting off with some relative velocity transverse to
>the main velocity vector....and all these "ejections" would have
>to occur in the same direction in order to make the main body
>"turn left" (as seen from above). Just how much momentum would
>have to be generated transverse to the main velocity vector in
>order to affect a 40 degree turn to the left? I haven't tried to
>figure it out but I'm betting it would be a lot. I'm sure it
>would require a large force between the main piece and the
>ejected pieces. and the "integral" of a smaller but continual
>force during the time of the observation. A calculation could be
>done for empty space with some assumptions about the initial
>mass and velocity, but it woudl not give the correct answer when
>atmospheric drag effects are added.

Bruce,

I was concerned with the atmospheric drag effects when the
meteor was spinning and was not perfectly spherical. And when
the high velocity of the meteor might be able to compensate for
the small atmospheric density in causing a lateral movement of
the meteor, as with a boomerang, for example.

>Yes, I know how CSICOP works.

>I am not a meteor expert, but I suspect that any observation of
>a meteor deviating by as much as 40 degrees would be copnsidered
>(a) a miracle and (b) worthy of publication in a geophysical
>journal.

>With regard to (b), I would challenge anyone, who is able to
>provide a good theoretical justification for considering that
>that Moore's observation could have been of a turning meteor ,
>to write a paper and submit for publication.

How about submitting one to the Skeptical Inquirer, and assuming
the (spinning) meteor might have been shaped somewhat like a
boomerang. Then instead of changing course by 360 degrees one
would argue in the paper that it changed course only by 45
degrees because it was only somewhat shaped like a boomerang.
Would this be scientific enough for that journal?

Jim Deardorff






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                    Re: Korff Spams The News Groups! - #2

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 03:48:47 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 09:34:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Korff Spams The News Groups! - #2


>Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 14:35:00 -0600
>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Korff Spams The News Groups! - #2

>Kal Korff unctuously oozed:

>>Dear List:

>>Over the past year or so, certain individuals have made the
>>claim that I am a "UFO debunker" or some sort of secret CIA
>>agent and other, offensive thing.

><Snipped pernicious posits, artless assumptions, and empty
>elocutions>

>On reflection, I think it is the faux think-cloak of guileless
>respectability that you pull around your self for cover,
>camouflage, or concealment that makes me see red when you float
>your unconvincing assertions. I've searched _my_ feelings
>regarding a direct relationship between how mad I get with how
>right they/you might be. I'm genuinely concerned that I may be
>too quick to accept the anomalous in a vain attempt to escape,
>say, a cruel blood, tooth, and claw reality that we maintain for
>ourselves in uneasy deference to the men you SAY you don't work
>for . . .<g>. You are, perhaps, an innocent true believing tool
>in your own right, but I don't think so, Mr. Korff. With regard
>to you, every one of my bells go off to signify that the road is
>closed, the poke is empty, or the path's an illusion. I think
>you're a shill, sir, a mechanism to jerk us back and forth
>across the line of credulity so hard and often we don't know
>WHAT to believe.

<snip>

To one, Mr. Alfred Lehmberg, who lives in a place called "Snow
Hill," wherever that is, goes the coveted and rarely bestowed
"Dr. Jaime Gesundt Canal Street UFOlogical Research and Fresh
Wine Gallon of the Year award for bravery, litery, truth,
justice and the American way and no one does it better than you,
Dr. Al!

On behalf of Dr. Gesundt, Dr. Mortellaro and all the other Doctors at
the Canal Street factory:

"Hic-Hic-  Hooray"
"Hic-Hic-  Hooray"
"Hic-Hic-  Hooray"

Hic!  Excuse us!

Enjoy your award which comes with a check for hazardous duty and
a split of Dr. Gesundt's "Freshest" and most delicious,
"Gripple," a new taste in rare, one week old aromatic aged a
week in brine wine.... blended with the finest ingrediants we
could get at the time.

God bless you Dr. Lehmberg and, Whatch the skies!  After your
first bottle of Gripple, you won't have a choice.

Jimmy Mortellaro for Dr. G





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                   CUN - National UFO Center of Italy Site

From: Alfredo Lissoni <alisson@tin.it>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:47:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 09:38:41 -0500
Subject: CUN - National UFO Center of Italy Site


Please, visit del new CUN - National UFO Center of Italy -
archive web site

E' da oggi attivo l'archivio del Centro Ufologico Nazionale

http://members.tripod.com/~ufocun/archivio.html

Bye






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                               Happy New Year

From: Sergey Korchagin <neva@ns.comch.ru>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 13:20:50 +0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 09:46:56 -0500
Subject: Happy New Year


English

I wish you a Merry Christmas !!
Happy New Year !!!

Russian

=F3 =EE=CF=D7=D9=CD =E7=CF=C4=CF=CD =C9 =F2=CF=D6=C4=C5=D3=D4=D7=CF=CD !!!






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                        Serious Questions - Answered

From: Robert A. M. Stephens" <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 14:39:21 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:30:12 -0500
Subject: Serious Questions - Answered

[Non-Subscriber Post - The Original is confusing as to who keyed
 what - I've tried to edit the layout to make it clearer. Original
 also contained styled & coloured formatting --ebk]

Hello

(answers as indicated by (RAMS) above each paragraph)

All answers below, as per questions. Peter Gersten and Robert
Stephens:

--

I have some serious problems with the recent post by Peter
Gersten in conversation with Robert Stephens. So I have some
specific questions and comments to make. They are as follows:

--

>Gersten: Just a few questions if you don't mind. You stated in a
>prior e-mail that 'over 40 years there has been documented over
>1.3 million implants worldwide of unknown construct.' From
>where is this information obtained?

>Stephens: This information was obtained by medical, science,
>universities, military, other academia, world wide--all
>nations, over 40 years or longer, since the first non-Earth
>implant was discovered in a patient's forearm, a young woman,
>17, in Chungking, China in July of 1937.

--

First off, exactly what "medical, science, universities,
military, other academia" institutions have this data? And
exactly where did you get the startling figure of 1.3 million
implants? Where specifically is the data on "the first
non-Earth implant" that "was discovered in a patient's forearm,
a young woman, 17, in Chungking, China in July of 1937?"
Please be very specific here. Who discovered and analyzed that
so-called first non-Earth implant?

(RAMS) It was posted in the book of military history, entitled,
'Sons of Bushido', 1950, Raybon Press-Nippon, Tokyo, Japan,
English translation by Garden Press, San Francisco, 1951.

The tome was the coverage of the intended and actual insurgency
of Japaneses forces in and around Chungking (Chunking-correct
spelling) China during the epoch of warfare when Japanese forces
pushed deep into Chinese territory between the years of
1931-1939 and on into WW2. In so doing, as described, there
was the details of findings by Japanese medical personnel of
documentation in the city archives of the 'unknown medical
implantation of metal rice grains' in said victim.

The fact of implants of non-Earth origin began here unless shown
otherwise.

This information was then trafficked within the medical field
over the years in obscure fashion, much to the dismay of those
that follow such things. I found this data by two different
sources long ago, both unrelated. At the time, I had no
interest in such.

First, during the mid 70s I researched in great measure all
locations where my father was in the pacific during WW2, thus
traveled throughout the Pacific rim, garnering information.
Upon finding the above tome I was interested in the military
aspects, not the issue of the 'implant' data. This, I
skimmed over. I recall it only because of my related interest.
The book mentioned, was in the Free People's Public Library,
Taipei, Taiwan, in 1981, the last time I was in Taiwan.

Second, is the ongoing bantering of this information from
Chunking in various medical and science circles that too, have
a fleeting interest in the topic, that I have registered in my
mind as data of interest over 30 years. For this moment, I
wish I had the very tome in front of me and the other
information for posting online.

Before another 500 emails come forth, I am not a 'researcher'
in this field. I know nothing about it.

--

>Gersten: Who is being implanted?

>Stephens: There is no set pattern or colliery as to a defined
>group. Implants appear in anyone, everyone. All nations, all
>humanities. It is unknown as to why. They are also found in
>some animals but this is inconclusive. Golden Retrievers, to
>name one species, is a favored host, inexplicably.

--

Do you have the veterinary reports on the surgical removal and
pathological analysis of these particular Golden Retriever
implants?

(RAMS) I do not have the names or the addresses or the
phone numbers of the veterinary personnel who have extracted or
verified these removals from these canines.

--

>Gersten: You have stated that 'there are now over 100 sightings
>of unknown craft in Earth space per day, worldwide.' Where is
>this information from?

>Stephens: NORAD/Fence Database via SAC Command, Omaha, NE,
>and the NRO.

>Gersten: Do we know where these craft are from?

>Stephens: We do not know origins for these and all unknown
>intruders into near or far Earth space at this time.

--

How is it that you, a NASA sub-contractor, have access to such
highly classified NORAD/Fence Database data?

(RAMS) This information-source is not 'highly classified' by
DoD. It is, however, not available to the public, nor is it
available online, nor is it available by hardcopy from Omaha.
NORAD database is available to anyone who is involved with
aerospace and who works with airframes, modifications,
structural changes, etc, of vehicles that are being tested in
flight. The Fence database is an addition to this. Its
availability is not for sampling every uknown intruder, but to
track all air vehicles, with 'unknowns' a part of this
registration.

This availability of this source is not exceptional to me or to
anyone that is involved with aerospace-flight testing of
airframes that is related to NASA-DoD et, al.

--

>Gersten: Is our military involved?

>Stephens: Yes. DoD and NRO assets are summoned to any and all
>intruder assessments where conventional ground assets may or
>may not make visual interpretation of intruder after it is
>confirmed by elements of NORAD that we have a visitor. This
>includes reported visuals by pilots and gun camera footage.
>However, and the Montana UFO is no exception, 96% of all
>intruder assessments evade all attempts for conventional
>surveillance or interpretation. Thus, clandestine look-down
>technology from Earth's space is deployed. In this, generally,
>further assessment results. However, in 100% of the cases thus
>confirmed, conclusive data is never confirmed and the
>reconnaissance initiative is always a failure for immutable
>evidence. The assessment then, 100% of the time, in another
>words, confirms the presence of the intruder, but reveals no
>other compelling data in knowing who or what they are.

--

What sources are responsible for the previous statement?
"However, in 100% of the cases thus confirmed, conclusive data
is never confirmed and the reconnaissance initiative is always a
failure for immutable evidence. The assessment then, 100% of
the time, in another words, confirms the presence of the
intruder, but reveals no other compelling data in knowing who
or what they are."


(RAMS) The Sources are DoD and others, for protocol for
intercept.


Are you telling us that our military intelligence and
reconnaissance assets are incapable of ascertaining the nature
of near Earth intruders 100% of the time? This sounds
preposterous, on its face, and certainly does not inspire
confidence in our defense posture.


(RAMS) That is exactly what I am saying. For those intruders
that are unknown, the government does not know what they are
100% of the time. Still don't. Just that they are there.

The second part of the question whereby this sounds
'preposterous' is not subject to assessment. It is the way it
is. No, it does not instill 'confidence' in our defense
posture. This last fact could, in part, lend credence to the
secrecy, dis-information, silence, among other reasons, why
we know so little from the very sources that have way more
resources to know what is happening to us than Everyman. Since
government, in fact, does not know.

--

>Stephens: There is no garnered technology from these intruders
>used or deployed by human factors.

>There is no 'pact' or otherwise volitional involvement with
>these intruders by the U.S. Government at this time.

>There is 'seeded' technology out there from sources of non-earth
>origin back in the early 50s (not Roswell). This technology is
>unknown at this time for the following reasons: those that were
>involved are dead. The NRO and its core forerunner, the OSS,
>has never divulged this data to anyone under the Truman dictate
>of 1950. DoD does not have access nor utilization of this
>'seeded' technology at this time. Though they would obviously
>like to.

--

How do you know there is "seeded technology?" And if "this
technology is unknown at this time for the following reasons:
those that were involved are dead," then you've just
contradicted yourself. Are we to assume they are ALL dead by
natural causes, or something more sinister, perhaps? A number
of red flags are starting to wave here.

(RAMS) I do not know who our how they died by what causes. They
are dead now. The seeded technologies so mentioned is from the
report published detailing such 'unknown source' technologies to
the intelligence community sources of interest in 1957 by the
RAND corporation at George Washington University. Red flags in
naval parlance means pirates are attacking.

--

>Stephens: DoD budget is at 245 billion per annum. 19-24% of
>this monies at this time is deployed in off Earth or look down
>reconnaissance. It is not known conclusively at this time why.

--

As far as I know, the amount of monies devoted to look down
reconnaissance is highly classified in and of itself. Where do
you get the figure of 19-24% of 245 billion?

(RAMS) From DoD and other related sources. Aviation Week and
Space Technology magazine, known as 'AV Week', and Jane's
Weekly, both the preeminent publications for anything regarding
aerospace are the prime sources for this information.

Along with these sources are published accounting data available
at various aerospace agencies both in and out of government,
published annually.

--

>Stephens: The only public--lay persons database that is
>available to Everyman that is remotely related to the element of
>the intruders is NASA's just formed Advanced Propulsion Physics
>Lab, headed by NASA's Marc Millus. This, alone, is a direct
>and admitted response to the intruder phenomenon under the
>auspices that under present propulsion technologies as
>understood, based on present physics as understood, if nothing
>is forthcoming otherwise, we, as a species, are marooned in
>Sol space.

It was my understanding that the NASA Breathrough Propulsion
Physics Working Group is specifically devoted to the development
of promising theoretical approaches to rapid, propellentless
deep space flight, NOT the identification of near Earth
intruders. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about that.
And what specific database at Marc Millis's working group "that
is available to Everyman" are you talking about? There are a
lot of people out there who would very much like to have access
to such a database, should it in fact exist.

(RAMS) Please read my answer above again. I do not understand
the mystery of my answer.

By the formation of the Advanced Propulsion Physics Lab, this
bold step is an admitted advancement in query for faster than
light travel, and other as yet unavailable technologies, and
still other technologies Mark's office covers beyond known
technology. That, unless we are shown otherwise technologies
such as the intruders exhibit in their fleeting demonstrations
as documented, and unless we can garner these advanced
applications for ourselves, we are marooned here.

>Gersten: You state that 'on 12-4-1998, Fence picked up a
>'Gray' (unknown intruder) over the Shander Sugar plantation in
>western Cuba for 1 hour, witnessed by dozens, and then the
>intruder fled.' What was the is craft?

>Stephens: A large triangular craft, silver-dark gray in color,
>no markings, approximately 200 meters on a side, shaped as a
>true equilateral triangle, silent in operation, stationary in
>repose, and of unknown origin. Intruder Fence number #119,266.
>12-4-1998, sighted and logged @ 1721 hours EST.

Again, why do you, a simple NASA sub-contractor, have access to
such highly classified DoD 'Fence' data? And if you do, why are
you releasing this data to the public, knowing full well that
this would be in serious violation of federal law?

(RAMS) It is not in violation of federal law. It was
intentionally released on my part to counter the claim there was
a space ship landing from the Pegasi star system in central
Arizona on 12-7-1998. It was also an intentional release of data
on my part verifying that what the 600+ residents of my home
county, Lake, county 15, state of Montana, was in fact there to
behold as a unknown origin vehicle in our space.

I have read carefully the statutes regarding national security
protocols for all that work in and around government in any
form. I am a free contractor. I chose on my own volition to
release the information I have as I have deemed that it in no
way violates the national security of the United States of
America or any data therein so described.

Further, in 70 days since I first reported NORAD/Fence data
regarding the Montana UFO and other 'Gray's as listed, no
representatives of the U.S. Government have come to my home,
written me by email, phone, or lettered me, advising me to
cease and desist releasae of this information.

NORAD/Fence has been in the public domain since first being
covered in depth by Jane's Weekly in 1982. Covered in more
depth and for public release by AV Week in 1984 and 1985.


As for this lowly, proto-human, illiterate, stupid, nobody
sub contractor being privy in his possession such dark and
forbidden secrets of 'Top Secret?' classification, black-ops
data as Fence database, etc., and then using said data in the
reckless, irresponsible way he has, I would contact your local
representative and have those esoteric forbidden privileges
revoked at once from said simple contractor.

--

>Gersten: Where did it go?

>Stephens: After 1 hour, it moved upwards slowly at
>approximately 30 knots for 8 seconds, then left Earth's space
>vertically at Mach 30 until is was out of our biome for
>registration.

>Gersten: In reference to the Montana UFO, what was this object?

>Stephens: It is unknown at this time. Fence #177,443. I have
>not personally witnessed this object. 600+ witnesses in this
>county have. They describe it as a craft, 600 feet on a side,
>triangular, hovering motionless in clear night air, at 17000
>feet ASL. It appeared nearly every night from 10-16-1998, to
>11-16-1998. Due to weather conditions it is not possible to make
>a visible sight if this intruder is still there. It was not
>there during daylight hours, during the reported dates.

--

Again, you have provided detailed Fence registration numbers,
dates, numbers of witnesses, altitudes, physical dimensions,
etc. Where does all this data come from? And why is it that
you have been suddenly 'allowed' to release it to the public?

(RAMS) Read above.

--

>Gersten: Can NORAD/Fence also detect 'gray' objects leaving an
>area?

>Stephens: Yes. Once registration has been determined, the
>Fence number abides with the listed intruder until it vanishes
>or physically leaves Earth space out to 100,000 miles. After
>that egress distance we do not have the ability to track an
>intruder's movements.

>Gersten: How do you know what NORAD/Fence detects?

>Stephens: I have real time access to its tracking database
>compiler if I so wish to access it.

--

And the DoD-NRO has no problems with a civilian contractor
accessing their tracking database compiler, and releasing data
from it to the general public? What's wrong with this picture?
Now the alarms are going off, in addition to the red flags.

(RAMS) I do not know what is wrong with this picture. I do not
know what alarms are being referenced. Red flags in naval
parlance indicates pirates are attacking. I have real time
access to its tracking compiler if I so wish to access it.
Rarely do I since it has nothing whatsoever to do with my work.

--

>Gersten: If you were me, what and where would you be looking at
>now?

>Stephens: The National Reconnaissance Office. I would do it
>however, to use a U.S. Navy SEAL axiom, from an attack from
>within---i.e., I would first write to them. Get a dialog going
>with someone on the inside on a non- truculent, non-aveering
>topic. From there, nurture trust. From this standpoint,
>anything and everything is plausible. This is how everything in
>this field of study must be pursued. Government or not, they
>have the conclusive data--for whatever it is. And like you and
>I, they no more like to be attacked than anyone else.

--

As far as I know, NRO officers and employees are required by law
not to discuss ANY ASPECT OF THEIR WORK WITH ANYONE. Any NRO
employee who decided to become a Deep Throat would most
definitely be violating another Navy SEAL axiom: Proper Prior
Planning Prevents Painfully Poor Performance, in my estimation.
That would be tantamount to sentencing onself to a very long
federal prison term.

(RAMS) You very well may be right. I have chosen to release the
information I have under my own volition. Should this be
something the powers that be wish to address, they have had 70
plus days to do so. I have violated nothing that constitutes
endangering the safety or the security of the United States of
America, unless all of you have some deep seated conviction that
said data is a threat to you somehow. Then, get ahold of those
congressman and get those privileges revoked for said simple
contractor. That will help the cause immeasurably, I'm certain.

This one main thread, this attacking without foundational fact,
must cease. Your approach, from a legal standpoint, should be
the matrix for deployment when all else fails. Anything outside
of your past approaches, which is the way it should be done,
will not work, ultimately. The vice of non-disclosure will
tighten considerably I fear should this caveat not be adhered
to.

Let it be known: I, Robert A.M. Stephens, am a conservative,
in the truest constitutional form. Thus, from the beginning,
I do not subscribe to non-disclosure of public funded and thus
garnered information from Everyman. If the public can't handle
the truth, so be it. Or to use a NASA moniker: 'let 'er rip'.
Meaning: If one finds themselves out over the yawning red maw
of risk, then, go all the way since it is doubtful at that
point to reverse back out and away from harm.

So, unless under war conditions, and the intruders under their
very own elected profile for dealing in utter stealth our
species with the abductions, implants, their own
non-disclosure, may well fall under this umbrella---that aside,
tell it all. Secrets only work up to a point. After a time,
the ones withheld information, will come and burn down your
empire. Government should keep this immutable fact in mind.
This is my strictest personal opinion, which I offer rarely.


You have my complete support on that position. But the number
of red flags raised in your previous statements, raise serious
concerns as to your veracity and true intentions regarding the
release of this admittedly compelling information. Are you
really who you say you are, Mr. Stephens?


Sincerely,

Kim Burrafato

--

(RAMS) This is baffling to me. Upon reporting on the Montana UFO
on 10-16-1998, my first of this nature and last, I listed my
resume' (Mitch Battros-Earth Changes TV and Claude at
UFO-network) phone numbers at NASA, phone numbers and addresses
at home here, all phone and contacts for the media, the
newspaper that asked me to report this story online, phone
numbers of witnesses, and on and on.

Since then I have done the same thing for another 150+ people
who have written me for the same information. Yet, these very
people will write me with nothing more than a name (Kim
Burrafato for an example) or 'Earth Angel' or 'WebcatUFO' or
'SEX-n'Space' dot com. I have answered each and re-sent my
data. I will not do it anymore. I do not have time. I am not
a switchboard personnel director for myself.

Lastly, before I click 'send' I have reviewed what I have
written above and some data is vague because I do not know how
to answer more than what I have. Some I have re-answered pretty
well. I have reported what I have been exposed to over 30 years
of interfacing with government in one form or another. And keep
in mind, I am not a UFO guy. I will be back soon doing what I
do and a month from now I'll be but a passing memory. After
the Montana UFO bears some form of fruition one way or another,
I wish no more involvement in this field of study.

Thus, you may want to hold the very ones in this industry who
claim the mighty things they do, up to at least the same
standard you hold me, and I came into this with all
verification screaming, and the way you hold NASA and other
agencies up to scrutiny. And since by the nature of this
industry, it is you, all of you, who have such bold need of
inquiry, can at least put your email address and phone number
and real name on your queries, Like Michael Theroux at
Borderlands Research does and Peter Gersten at CAUS. At least
that much.

Tomorrow night (12-23-1998) I am suppose to appear on Art Bell's
show, by his phone request to me last night (12-21-1998), to
debate Richard Hoagland, tentatively if Richard Hoagland can be
'reached' for this appointment. I have been told by several
mails today this is a trap by Bell, Hoagland, and Peter
Gersten to trick me and trap me and make me the bad guy somehow.
This would be fine.

(this is odd--I have tried since 10-18-1998 to personally get
ahold of Richard Hoagland for obvious reasons but since there is
no way to do so--I have failed in this endeavor)

It will be fun, at any rate, regardless of the motives. If
the 5 or 6 million folks listening think I am in gross error
somehow, well that leaves another 240 million Americans who do
not. If it is a negative, then it brings this flight of the
'cuckoo over the nest' to a close that much quicker.

This morning I had a very nice phone call from a Dr. Richard
Sauder. He was very interesting and very intriguing. He
informed me he thought I was a drunk, (I do not drink) a
liar, and that I would fail in dealing with Mr. Hoagland in any
fashion including on air with Mr. Bell. That my data was flawed
and after trying to explain some data on orbital mechanics to
him I was a fool and illiterate and I knew nothing what I was
talking about.

Probably so.

In closing, police yourselves a little. Or no information from
the very sources you wish to garner access to will be
forthcoming. The vice will close down further--probably on both
sides of the UFO enigma. Bring your own data as presented,
like this very mail, up to some form of professionalism that you
expect---demand, from others---like an email address or phone
number, so that you are taken seriously in the end when someone
does respond. And too, demand the same as you asked herein,
from those many that have far wilder claims of truth than the
outrageous things I've stated even in this 'preposterous' mail.

Just a thought.

To you, 'Kim Burrafato', whomever you are, and the rest happy
holidays.


-- Robert A.M. Stephens
Contractor, NASA
Shuttle Documentation Program
KSC-PA/PIB-codeMSF/shuttle
sti3818@montana.com
406-745-3818






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 27

                 Leah Monier 'True Abduction' Report Updated

From: Alex Field <alex@abcfield.force9.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 14:24:26 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:42:03 -0500
Subject: Leah Monier 'True Abduction' Report Updated


Leah Monier, the Author of 'True Abduction - Our Story', which
is located on BUFOD has written an update of her situation and
experience.

If you have not read "True Abduction - Our Story" it is well
worth reading, and if you have then you should read the update,
alot has happened since she wrote the report and it fascinated
me!!

"True Abduction - Our Story"

http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk/abduction/

Find the update by clicking on the December 1998 Update
link.

All the best

Ben Field
BUFOD: http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 27

                              Re: Mexican UFOs?

From: Dan Geib <geibdan@qtm.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:07:12 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:44:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Mexican UFOs?


>From: Peggy Dillard <pegspirit@webtv.net>
>Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 11:33:15 -0800 (PST)
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Mexican UFOs

>I'm interested in the numerous sitings over Mexico.  Is there a
>web site that gives reliable info on this?


Peggy

For Mexico footage and articles try UFO Folklore!:

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/framemst.html

--
UFO Folklore !
http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/framemst.html

Dan's Magic in Michigan
http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/magician






   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 27

                      Re: Korff Spams The News Groups!

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:38:36 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 11:01:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Korff Spams The News Groups!


>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 02:09:41 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Korff Spams The News Groups!



>>Subj: UFO UpDate: Korff Spams The News Groups!
>>Date: 12/26/98 9:53:14 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>From: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)

>>Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 12:31:09 -0600
>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Korff spams the News Groups!

Hello All -

Far be it for me to defend Kal Korff, however, some of the
things suggested by J. Bond Johnson simply are not FACTS and
should be corrected. Since I was the one who interviewed him,
and the quotes used come from those interviews, I can answer the
questions posed by Dr. Johnson.

<snip>

>From: JBONJO@aol.com
>Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:52:26 EST
>To: TotlResrch@aol.com [Kal K. Korff]
>Subject: Some Questions about Your Book on Roswell

>I am the Roswell UFO Crash Photographer that you quote in your
>book, 'The Roswell UFO Crash -- What They Don't Want You to
>Know'.  Since we never have met or had any conversation I am
>curious and therefore am requesting the basis for several
>statements published in your book:

First, it must be noted that Dr. Johnson is, in fact, the Fort
Worth Army Air Field Photographer who took pictures of the
weather balloon that was displayed in General Ramey's office.
There is no evidence that Dr. Johnson went to Roswell to take
any photographs of the debris in 1947.

>"General Ramey allows the press to enter his office and
>photograph the actual flying saucer wreckage, although they are
>not allowed to touch it.  One of the photographers present is J.
>Bond Johnson, who takes several pictures..." p. 28-29.

>FACT: I was the ONLY photographer present to photograph the
>wreckage in General Ramey's office.  In fact, NO OTHER
>photographs ever have been produced of Ramey, DuBose and Marcel.
>I was left alone in the office for a short time while awaiting
>the arrival of General Ramey and during that period unwrapped a
>package of the wreckage and did my best to arrange it for a
>useful photo.

Dr. Johnson is correct that no other photographs of Ramey, Ramey
and DuBose, and Marcel have ever surfaced. It is also correct
that Dr. Johnson suggested for years that he had taken only the
photos of Ramey, and Ramey and DuBose. It is only recently that
he has begun to claim he took the pictures of Marcel. Given the
circumstances, and the pictures, there really is no reason not
to grant this "memory."

However, let's contrast his claim here that he was left alone in
Gen. Ramey's office and that he then unwrapped a package of
wreckage with his most recent claim, made here on Updates, that
he was in the office with DuBose and that they both unwrapped
the debris. Well, Dr. Johnson, which was it? You alone in the
office and unwrapped the debris, or you and Col. DuBose in the
office and unwrapped the debris? If you were alone in General
Ramey's office and unwrapped the debris, did you then rifle
General Ramey's desk? Did you go through his papers on the desk
too?

>Incidentally, my hat -- I was the only civilian present so it
>must have been my hat! -- is shown on the chair in the
>background of several of the photos.

I thought you had recognized the hat as yours. Now are you
suggesting that the hat must be yours because it was a civilian
hat?

>I did not take the Irving Newton photo and have no information
>as to who did. It must have been taken subsequent to my
>arranging the crash wreckage pieces since they obviously are
>still arranged the same way on the floor of the general's
>office.  There have been speculations that Newton was
>photographed by a FWAAF base photographer after I left and that
>the photo then was released to the press along with the
>"cover-up" press release on the evening of 7/8/47, which quoted
>Newton.

 --

>"A short time later, the shredded remains of an ordinary weather
>balloon are brought into Ramey's office and quickly substituted
>for the real saucer wreckage," p. 29.

>FACT: It has been well established by ufologist researchers that
>there NEVER was any 'substitution' of any wreckage whatsoever.

This fact is not well established and is disputed by a number of
people. Colonel DuBose has said as much himself, in a video
taped interview conducted in August 1990.


 --

>"At the official press briefing that follows the 'bait and
>switch' maneuver, General Ramey announces that the whole flying
>saucer affair has been a mistake, and that the debris recovered
>by Maj. Jesse Marcel is nothing more than the remains of a
>weather balloon." p. 29.

>FACT: There is no known record of ANY "press briefing" by
>General Ramey other than the casual comments he made to me
>during my photographing of him, Colonel DuBose and Major Marcel.
>These comments made only to me were a denial that he knew the
>nature of the debris being photographed.

There is evidence of another press briefing as outlined by the
testimonies of DuBose, Newton and Marcel. All said that four or
five reporters were at Ramey's office.

The denial that Dr. Johnson claims is in direct conflict with
what he has said in the past. More on that later.

 --

>"THE BOND JOHNSON FACTOR ...At that time I was briefed on the
>idea that it was not a flying disc as reported but in fact was a
>weather balloon that had crashed....  Almost the first thing
>that Ramey said was, "Oh, we've found out what it is, and you
>know, it's a weather balloon." p. 125.

>FACT: I have been quoted in the past as making statements
>similar to these. There is no basis in fact as to these remarks,
>I never have made any such statements since this does not in any
>way coincide with any recollections or records that I have of my
>visit to General Ramey's office on 7/8/47.

REAL FACT: During the first interview I conducted with Dr.
Johnson in 1989, he told me that Ramey told him, immediately, it
was a weather balloon.  On February 27, 1989, Johnson said to
me, "I took two pictures and then they said, 'Oh we've figured
it out now what it is...' it's a weather balloon and so forth
and no big deal so I didn't press it. I accepted it. I was
rather naive and accepted it.

I should point out here that I have, on two separate occasions,
supplied Dr. Johnson with copies of the taped interviews so that
he could hear himself make this statement.

Dr. Johnson also said, on March 24, 1989,  "It seemed
incongruous to have this smelly garbage piled up on the floor...
spread out on the floor of this rather plush, big office that
was oh, probably 16 by 20. I posed General Ramey with this
debris. At that time I was briefed on the idea that it was not a
flying disk as first reported but in fact was a weather balloon
that had crashed.

I should point out here that I have, on two separate occasions,
supplied Dr. Johnson with copies of the taped interviews so that
he could hear himself make this statement (purposely redundant).

I will point out that I have asked these questions and pointed
out these statements to Dr. Johnson on several occasions and
have received no reply from him. I have sent him copies of the
tapes so that he could hear himself make the statements that he
now claims that he didn't make. He has yet to answer my
questions except to suggest that I was trying to convince him of
my scenario when all I was trying to do was learn his rationale
for so radically altering his statements.

This is not meant to support Kal Korff or to endorse his point
of view. It is that Korff is right in the quotes he has made and
Johnson is wrong in the spin he has put on them. This is a fight
that goes back several years when Johnson suddenly changed his
tale to what he is attempting to tell now.

>Your anticipated reply at the earliest possible time will be
>greatly appreciated.

>J. Bond Johnson

So, Dr. Johnson, your anticipated reply at the earliest possible
time will be greatly appreciated. Since you haven't bothered to
answer these points in the past, I won't hold my breath.

KRandle

http://www.randlereport.com






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               'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Robert A.M.

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:02:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:02:54 -0500
Subject: 'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Robert A.M.




On 'Strange Days... Indeed' tonight we'll be talking with
NASA Contractor Robert A.M. Stephens about shuttle anomalies,
his reception on the net as a newcomer to ufology.

The program starts at 11:00pm EST on 1010 CFRB [AM - 50,000watts]
and you can listen via your Real Player at:

www.cfrb.com/cfrb.ram

To call the program 'live', dial:





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   Dec > Dec 27

                          BWW Media Alert 199812277

From: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:47:51 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:38:08 -0500
Subject: BWW Media Alert 199812277


Bufo Calvin
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA  94596<BR>
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Website: http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or
redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that
attribution is made to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is
good etiquette to check with strangers before you e-mail them
something.  If you forward this, please make sure it is clear
that you are forwarding it).

December 27, 1998
This one is again a bit brief: still doing holiday stuff.  I'm
starting a new monthly feature in FATE magazine soon, covering
weird reports from around the world.  If you are interested in
contributing, please let me know and I'll send you the criteria.

The big talk this week will be about the Fox special on Monday.
However, the Discovery Channel is also running some nice
programming.  The Sci-Fi Channel is not running SIGHTINGS during
the upcoming week (after Sunday), but it is scheduled to return.
On to the listings: Times are generally Pacific.

TELEVISION
A&E
THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL
Sunday, December 27, 12:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: UFOs
Sunday, December 27, 1:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: BEAST OF THE MOORS (the Beast
of Bodmin, an out-of-place big cat in the UK)
Sunday, December 27, 1:30 PM, STRANGE BUT TRUE: NEAR DEATHS AND EXORCISM
Thursday, December 31, 7:00 PM, UFO: DOWN TO EARTH: GREAT BALLS OF LIGHT
Thursday, December 31, 8:00 PM, INSIDE AREA 51
Thursday, December 31, 9:00 PM, UFOS OVER PHOENIX
Thursday, December 31, 11:00 PM, UFOS: DOWN TO EARTH: UNCOVERING THE EVIDENCE
Friday, January 1, 12:00 AM, BEYOND BIZARRE: UFOS AND ALIEN IMPLANTS
Friday, January 1, 1:00 AM, OZ ENCOUNTERS: UFOS IN AUSTRALIA (I'd recommend
this one: nice, first person kind of stuff)
Friday, January 1, 2:00 AM, UFOS: DOWN TO EARTH: REASON TO BELIEVE
FOX

Monday, December 28, 8:00 PM, WORLD'S GREATEST HOAXES: SECRETS
FINALLY REVEALED (This one has gotten a great deal of press in
the paranormal "community".  Bob Kiviat, the producer who
brought us the Fox ALIEN AUTOPSY special ((among other things))
is doing a debunking turn.  They will present someone who claims
to be an actor in the Alien Autopsy film, etc.  I've noted in
the past that much greater mainstream press is sometimes
generated by claims of a hoax than by claims of a paranormal
event...a classic being the crop circle "confessions" of Doug
and Dave.  It made the front page in papers where crop circles
had never gotten  close.  What I am guessing they will use about
Nessie was also front page news, despite some elements that cast
the confession in doubt.  The philosophical Skeptics ((what I
call "true disbelievers")) rarely put claims of hoaxing to as
stringent a test as they do claims of events.  A true sceptic
would, of course, treat both equally.  I suspect that they have
one really strong debunking on the show, accompanied by some
that are less impressive.  Should be an interesting show, hosted
by Lance Henriksen).

THE HISTORY CHANNEL

Wednesday, December 30, 5:00 PM, THE MYSTERIES OF AMELIA EARHART (alien
abduction is proposed as a solution, among others)
Wednesday, December 30, 9:00 PM, THE MYSTERIES OF AMELIA EARHART (alien
abduction is proposed as a solution, among others)
Thursday, December 31, 1:00 AM, THE MYSTERIES OF AMELIA EARHART (alien
abduction is proposed as a solution, among others)

MTV

Sunday, January 3, 2:30 PM, ROAD RULES: UFO stories (don't know if this is
really appropriate or not)
Monday, January 4, 10:00 PM, ROAD RULES: UFO stories (don't know if this is
really appropriate or not)
THE SCIENCE CHANNEL
The new schedule is weird programming for an hour each at 6:00 AM, 2:00 PM,and
10:00 PM. Rotating shows include: INTO THE UNKNOWN, STRANGE BUT TRUE, and
ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE.
THE SCI-FI CHANNEL
Sunday, December 27, 7:00 PM, SIGHTINGS #3003 (Area 51, ice circles, psychic
detective, alien abductees)
Sunday, December 27, 11:00 PM, SIGHTINGS #3003 (Area 51, ice circles, psychic
detective, alien abductees)
SYNDICATED

Wednesday, December 30, MONTEL WILLIAMS: psychic Sylvia Browne
Wednesday, December 30, JUDGE JUDY: psychic


___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly
redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by
e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com.  You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to
Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if
there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t
he week before.
_____________________________





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                         Re: The Skeptical Believer

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 98 12:32:50 PST
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:41:17 -0500
Subject: Re: The Skeptical Believer


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 00:24:50 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Skeptical Believer

>>From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>>Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:33:02 -0600
>>Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:59:13 -0500
>>Subject: The Skeptical Believer

>Previously, Tim offered this report regarding "The Amazing
>Randi" and his standing offer of one million dollars to anyone
>proving physic powers or abilities:


>The problem with the above scenario is that Randi wants absolute
>results from a world of inabsolutes. For instance, he could say
>that he'll give one million dollars if your car started 365 days
>in a row. I know of no car that reliable, even new ones, and
>certainly cars are more reliable than fleeting and
>underdeveloped physic abilities.

Roger,

In the above and the stuff I've snipped, you make many excellent
points, though I think you mean "psychic," not "physic."  My
dictionary defines the latter as "the art or practice of healing
disease" or "purgative."

The simple fact, of course, is that Randi's offer is just a lot
of grandstanding nonsense which has nothing to do with science
and everything to do with self-promotion and show business.

The second point is this:  Randi privately admits that he has no
intention of paying out.  In a phone conversation with erstwhile
admirer Dennis Rawlins, who taped these immortal words, Randi
boasted -- referring to his various offers for "proof" of
paranormal talents -- "I _always_ have an out." (See Rawlins's
"Starbaby," Fate, October 1981, p. 89;  the whole piece, by the
way, is an eye-opening exercise urgently recommended to those
naifs who believe the debunkers are playing by any rules but the
ones they make up as they go along.)

Jerry Clark












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                             Sightings - Czarnik

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:42:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:50:47 -0500
Subject: Sightings - Czarnik


APANTHA@aol.com wrote:

>Mr. Stevens, Since I have not read your communique, I do not
>know exactly what you put forth. Judging by the responses from
>the remarks of my friends, you must not pay much attention to
>facts. I assure you that Mr. Czarnik is very real and so is his
>reputation for professionalism, integrity, and a whole other
>string of favorable adjectives.

>Let me advise you, Mr. Stevens, you are dealing with some very
>highly educated people who can, and will, make mincemeat out of
>whatever inaccuracies you are putting out. You owe Mr. Czarnik
>an apology and a retraction. Why are you so interested in
>making a fool of yourself?

-------------------------

Mr. APANTHA (?),

This is the 9th mail I have received, testifying and now, with
an email address included, for a MD employee by the name of Mr.
Czarnik.

I have still failed to find this man's name in the MD archives.
Obviously my error somehow. Having worked at MD-DAC-Titusville
(2-7-1986---11-5-1998) I have had over the years the alumni
records for all that have worked there in the various MD
components. To Mr. Czarnik, my apologies. This mail is cc'd
to his email address along with the others so listed.

My question of validity regarding the 'lunar' page is this:

The moon and Earth are two different, by fact, orbiting bodies.
Earth, a revolving axis orbiting body. Our Moon, a stationary
orbiting body. Both accomplishing a rotation on axis by two
totally different dynamics.

On the 'lunaranomalies' page, this fact escapes me and still
does as described.


Secondly, after 70+ days of being exposed to this 'field' of
study since reporting on the Montana UFO (my first and last of
this nature) by the Lake County Leader newspaper back on
10-16-1998, such pages as the 'The Enterprise Mission' and so
many others leaves me quite wanting for facts, and for answers.

In so many cases, the writer of this mail above included,
there is no way to know who it is claiming what they do, no way
to contact them by phone, email, no full name, nothing, to
then get further clarification of legitimate questions answered.
The Enterprise Mission site, another example.

With that stated, the page in question, the 'lunaranomalies'
page, linked directly from Richard Hoagland's 'Enterprise
Mission' page, states categorically, over and over, on
numerous page links, that somehow space flight, as practiced by
NASA, is based on astrological signs as viewed in stellar
constellations, and by masonic symbols. Mr. Czarnik appears on
that very page at the 'lunaranomalies' site, hosted by Michael
Bara, and alludes to this suggestion.

Mr. Czarnik is welcome to attribute space flight to metaphysical
connections all he wishes and endorse this type of suggestion by
Mike Bara of the lunar anomalies page and Richard Hoagland of
the The Enterprise Mission site.

Equally, I believe I have the same privilege to point out that
this allusion is mistaken. That unmanned and manned space
flight is based on the following:

1.  Algebraic formulae and other math applications in the
field of orbital mechanics 2.  Target arrangement and
execution based on target intent.

That:

3.  Serendipitous views of ancillary objects in space result
from us being there. Not some metaphysical 'need' for NASA to
satisfy some esoteric pleasing of 'Solar System Temple Worship'
(ref.: Enterprise Mission pages)--(what in the world is this
anyway-RAMS?) or any other metaphysical, quasi religious
worship ceremonies practiced by old or new NASA. If the
esteemed Mr. Czarnik wishes to allude otherwise, so be it.

4.  That launching of craft from KSC (Kennedy Space Center) is
not based, or held, or deployed, or given over to, or govern
by, astrological signs in the heavens, by masonic worship or
symbols, by constellation figures in stellar lore relating to
Greek or other national historical mythologies.

Astrological lore attributes to space flight in the beginning
were based on the fact this was more logical than naming space
flight missions on, say, plant life. Thus: Apollo would have
been the 'Hibiscus Mission' or the 'Poppy Mission', etc.

(besides, it is common knowledge that the masons and their odd
ball fraternal beliefs are based on the ancient Shambala-ism of
ancient Egypt. Not Greece)

That: launching of spacecraft is based solely on the following:

(a: Target intent location based on orbital mechanics and
intended mission parameters.

(b: Weather at launch site

(c: Hardware-firmware and other features associated with the
intended flight for flight readiness

(d: Sign-off by all launch managers involved at launch center
with a unanimous vote to commit to mission, in lieu of, all
other parameters meeting launch criteria.

Further:

5.  The geophysical condition of the Cydonia region appears to
be varved escarpments and other naturally eroded hillocks,
plains, and other normal topographical features based on
assessment of the most recently returned photos as displayed at
the JPL photo-archive site. Not the de-focused, non-sensical,
blurred, apparitions as presented in great dis-information on
the 'The Enterprise Mission' page and others.

That, further still, until we physically stand on Cydonia,
excavations executed, that conclusive assessment of this
location and others must be held at bay of speculation at this
time. Which I think is, at the least, logical. Since, too, there
is some distance between Mars and Earth and this distance does
seem to effect what we see.

6.  STS-48 and STS-80: That the questions posed regarding these
two mission profiles is, in fact, ejecta from the orbiter
spacecraft-(space shuttle), not UFOs hovering in the vicinity.

That, in full view, RCS motor firing for 1.2 seconds
(approximately) on the side of the orbiter is the apparent,
misinterpreted observation of something, a ray, being fired from
Earth's surface.

7.  That at this time until we return for further assessment,
there are no 'glass structures of artificial origin' on the moon
now, or in the past during the Apollo era when the astronauts
visited.

8.  That there was no space ship landing from the Pegasi star
system, upon Turret Mountain, Arizona, for the night of
12-7-1998, or any other night for that matter thus associated.

9.  That the Montana UFO that has been witnessed by some 600+
Montana residences from 10-16-1998 to 11-16-1998 is registered
as NORAD/Fence # 117,443.

10.  That HAARP did not do something to the weather on said
locale or at any other location since HAARP does not effect
weather.


In conclusion, if it is still held to belief that the moon is a
'Twirling Dervish' of motion on its axis AND rotating in a
approximate 500,000 mile diameter orbit around the Earth, too,
then I have no further response.

This mail is being forwarded to the office of Administrator,
NASA, NASA Headquarters, Washington, D.C.. It will be dispersed
also to: The Office of Space Flight, The Office of Manned Space
Flight, and to the offices involved with orbital mechanics and
space flight trajectories and targeting.

And yes, APANTHA, I am a total and complete fool for ever
assenting to getting remotely involved in this amazing field of
study, which at the 70+ day mark of exposure, I look at in great
wonder.

I simply do not have the education--which is obvious, the
experience, the background, the resolve, the understanding, the
inside information, the granular facts, as those that make this
field of study their obsession, and I am totally inept in every
way to even comment on anything related to this field of study
in any form. I regret in great measure I ever have. Or, to quote
Dr. Richard Sauder in a recent phone conversation, "....you
sound like a drunk."

Indeed.

I would definitely defer all topics thus related to this field
to those much more adept at answering and coming forth with
truthful issues at hand such as Richard Hoagland, Michael Bara,
Dr. Richard Sauder, James Oberg, and Mr. Czarnik as well as
others.

In the upcoming 'debate' on the Art Bell show on 12-30-1998,
with myself and Mr. Richard Hoagland, this should be the best
platform for Mr. Hoagland, among others in this field of study,
to correct me and guide me to better enlightenment of true
facts.

To all of you on this cc list and to whomever APANTHA is, all,
have a very merry Christmas this blessed season and a happy,
safe, holiday.

Sincerely to all,


-- Robert A.M. Stephens
Contractor, NASA
Shuttle Documentation Program
KSC-PA/PIB-codeMSF/shuttle
sti3818@montana.com
406-745-3818

(please post and re-send to all contacts you deem appropriate)







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                         Re: The Skeptical Believer

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 21:06:36 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 13:49:56 -0500
Subject: Re: The Skeptical Believer


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Date: Sun, 27 Dec 98 12:32:50 PST
>Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:41:17 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Skeptical Believer

Previously, I had offered the following regarding The Amazing
Randi and his offer of one million dollars for proof of psychic
abilities:

>>The problem with the above scenario is that Randi wants absolute
>>results from a world of inabsolutes. For instance, he could say
>>that he'll give one million dollars if your car started 365 days
>>in a row. I know of no car that reliable, even new ones, and
>>certainly cars are more reliable than fleeting and
>>underdeveloped physic abilities.

Jerry responded:

>In the above and the stuff I've snipped, you make many excellent
>points, though I think you mean "psychic," not "physic."  My
>dictionary defines the latter as "the art or practice of healing
>disease" or "purgative."

>The simple fact, of course, is that Randi's offer is just a lot
>of grandstanding nonsense which has nothing to do with science
>and everything to do with self-promotion and show business.

Alas, life without Spell-Check isn't worth living.

I am a notoriously bad speller. Thanks for the correction, Jerr.
My computer is an old Performa 450 that won't handle anything
above Netscape 3.01 which, unfortunately, doesn't have spell
check in its email function. Beyond that, I'm far too lazy to
write in my word processing program and convert it to
email....And don't even bother asking me if I have a
dictionary....sheesh.

Oh well...

Regarding the not so amazing Randi, he makes the calim that if
he went to a violin player on the street and offered him one
million dollars to play the violin, then the guy would saw away
in no time. But what Randi leaves out is that the guy would have
to play at a certain level of proficiency (did I spell that
right?) that only Randi or his team is allowed to define. If the
guy doesn't suit them (Randi), then no million dollars. Neat
scam, huh?

Personally, I feel that psychic abilities are very real. I base
this on a girl I knew in high school. She wasn't always "on";
that is to say she didn't always feel she could do it. But when
she did, wow! It was really pretty amazing. I have no idea where
she is now. She was a very quiet type, fairly shy.

Most of her stuff had to do with "dream-visiting", as she called
it. The thing that struck me was that she seemed very
intimidated with her own ability. She really didn't like to do
it. I think it really scared her.

It sort of freaked me out, too.

Maybe she'll read this and go take Randi's money!

Later,

The Amazing Roger





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                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:59:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 13:52:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto'" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology
>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 15:35:30 -0500

>>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 00:52:39 -0500
>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>1) The only mention made of Larsen's background is that he was
>>in the insurance business, a matter of no UFOlogical import. A
>>matter of UFOlogical import, namely that Larsen was a member of
>>the Army's Counterintelligence Corps (CIC) the organization that
>>handled UFO investigation and security for numerous UFO
>>investigations, e.g. Gorman incident, Roswell incident, is not
>>mentioned at all.

>Let's get specific.

>How long did Larsen serve in CIC, and precisely what did he do?


Dear Greg,

If you need any information on Sherm Larsen please contact my
good friend on this List, Jerome Clark. Jerry has stated
publicly that he knows everything there is to know about him.
In fact I am finding it hard to believe that he has not posted
this information to this List just to prove that he does know
everything.

You don't suppose that the first he heard of Sherm Larsen and
the CIC was when I mentioned it?

Happy New Year,

Gary





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                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 03:12:32 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:03:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:42:43 +0000
>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Sightings - Czarnik

Festive Greets Errol and List members,

>Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>wrote:

>6. STS-48 and STS-80: That the questions posed regarding these
>two mission profiles is, in fact, ejecta from the orbiter
>spacecraft-(space shuttle), not UFOs hovering in the vicinity.

Mr Stephens, After reading your response to the above questions
regarding STS-48 and STS-80 missions. I find your explanation
very hard to agree with and it seems to fall far short of a
rational explanation. I am certainly no expert in this matter
which must be said but I have a few problems with your casual
dismissal of the Shuttle mission films which I will try to
explain.

First and foremost, I fail to see how you can possibly put all
of the anomalous objects, clearly seen in the STS-80 footage,
down to waste ejections from the shuttle and such-like. This is
absurd!

One of the objects in the footage seems to be very
large (main object) and does not behave in a manner consistent
with space junk. This large object appears to be under some kind
of intelligent control at least from what I can see. At one point
it seems that there are two additional objects which seem to be
on intercept/rendezvous type courses toward the large main
anomaly.( Space Junk?)

Also if it is indeed space junk and ejected waste etc, why do
all the objects seem to move at different speeds? Are they all
caught in different thruster blasts of different strengths? from
different directions?

>That, in full view, RCS motor firing for 1.2 seconds
>(approximately) on the side of the orbiter is the apparent,
>misinterpreted observation of something, a ray, being fired from
>Earth's surface.

Ok, I take it this is the STS-48 mission we are talking about
here. My problem with this is that the alleged RCS motor
firing,(flash in bottom left corner of screen on clip) fires at
a particular angle,(say towards 1 o'clock) if that is what is in
the clip as you say. If this is indeed the case, then why does
the anomalous object leave the shot at a totally different angle
than that of the alleged thruster blast? (approximately 2-3
o'clock) Surely if it was the thrust moving the ice/junk
whatever, the anomaly would have been blown in a similar path to
the alleged jet blast from the shuttle. The direction that the
anomaly leaves the shot from, suggests some kind of resistance
to the alleged thruster blast direction. Can space junk and Ice
do this?

Secondly, the anomalous object was also observed to change its
track again a second time, further out from Earth, which seems
to kick the RCS motor explanation into touch as far as I can
determine anyway.

Thirdly, when you touched upon the Shuttle missions in your
post, you did not even acknowledge the fact that there was more
than one anomalous episode connected to the STS-48 shuttle
mission. About 6 was it? Also what was the anomalous object
recorded on film, leaving Earth at a high velocity on the STS-80
mission? Too many relevant questions left unanswered I think.

Well, that's it for now. I hope that you may respond so that we
may possibly put the anomalous Shuttle mission footage to rest
once and for all. I am sure that I am not alone when I say we
would love to hear more about the anomalous NASA shuttle footage
in question.

Thanks for your time Mr Stephens and I wish you, Errol and the
List members a Happy New year when it comes.

Take care and enjoy the Holidays,

From your friend,

        Dave Ledger (UFO Scotland)

--

==================================================================
If you see someone without a smile......give them one of yours :)
******************************************************************
Posted by: Dave Ledger (mailto:UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk)
VISIT "UFO SCOTLAND" AT:
http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/index.htm
ICQ pager   http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4851425
******************************************************************
THE TRUTH IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!..................BUT HOW FAR?
==================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 03:12:32 +0000
From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Sightings - Czarnik


>Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:42:43 +0000
>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Sightings - Czarnik

Festive Greets Errol and List members,

>Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>wrote:

>6. STS-48 and STS-80: That the questions posed regarding these
>two mission profiles is, in fact, ejecta from the orbiter
>spacecraft-(space shuttle), not UFOs hovering in the vicinity.

Mr Stephens, After reading your response to the above questions
regarding STS-48 and STS-80 missions. I find your explanation
very hard to agree with and it seems to fall far short of a
rational explanation. I am certainly no expert in this matter
which must be said but I have a few problems with your casual
dismissal of the Shuttle mission films which I will try to
explain.

First and foremost, I fail to see how you can possibly put all
of the anomalous objects, clearly seen in the STS-80 footage,
down to waste ejections from the shuttle and such-like. This is
absurd!

One of the objects in the footage seems to be very
large (main object) and does not behave in a manner consistent
with space junk. This large object appears to be under some kind
of intelligent control at least from what I can see. At one point
it seems that there are two additional objects which seem to be
on intercept/rendezvous type courses toward the large main
anomaly.( Space Junk?)

Also if it is indeed space junk and ejected waste etc, why do
all the objects seem to move at different speeds? Are they all
caught in different thruster blasts of different strengths? from
different directions?

>That, in full view, RCS motor firing for 1.2 seconds
>(approximately) on the side of the orbiter is the apparent,
>misinterpreted observation of something, a ray, being fired from
>Earth's surface.

Ok, I take it this is the STS-48 mission we are talking about
here. My problem with this is that the alleged RCS motor
firing,(flash in bottom left corner of screen on clip) fires at
a particular angle,(say towards 1 o'clock) if that is what is in
the clip as you say. If this is indeed the case, then why does
the anomalous object leave the shot at a totally different angle
than that of the alleged thruster blast? (approximately 2-3
o'clock) Surely if it was the thrust moving the ice/junk
whatever, the anomaly would have been blown in a similar path to
the alleged jet blast from the shuttle. The direction that the
anomaly leaves the shot from, suggests some kind of resistance
to the alleged thruster blast direction. Can space junk and Ice
do this?

Secondly, the anomalous object was also observed to change its
track again a second time, further out from Earth, which seems
to kick the RCS motor explanation into touch as far as I can
determine anyway.

Thirdly, when you touched upon the Shuttle missions in your
post, you did not even acknowledge the fact that there was more
than one anomalous episode connected to the STS-48 shuttle
mission. About 6 was it? Also what was the anomalous object
recorded on film, leaving Earth at a high velocity on the STS-80
mission? Too many relevant questions left unanswered I think.

Well, that's it for now. I hope that you may respond so that we
may possibly put the anomalous Shuttle mission footage to rest
once and for all. I am sure that I am not alone when I say we
would love to hear more about the anomalous NASA shuttle footage
in question.

Thanks for your time Mr Stephens and I wish you, Errol and the
List members a Happy New year when it comes.

Take care and enjoy the Holidays,

From your friend,

        Dave Ledger (UFO Scotland)

--

==================================================================
If you see someone without a smile......give them one of yours :)
******************************************************************
Posted by: Dave Ledger (mailto:UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk)
VISIT "UFO SCOTLAND" AT:
http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/index.htm
ICQ pager   http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4851425
******************************************************************
THE TRUTH IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!..................BUT HOW FAR?
==================================================================





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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Dec > Dec 28

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 06:50:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:16:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:42:43 +0000
>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Sightings - Czarnik

<snip>

>6.  STS-48 and STS-80: That the questions posed regarding these
>two mission profiles is, in fact, ejecta from the orbiter
>spacecraft-(space shuttle), not UFOs hovering in the vicinity.

I have this STS-48 footage, sir, with its introduction by Dr.
Haines and a seemingly reasonable explanation by Dr. Jack
Kasher. His analysis _destroys_  the NASA supplied "Martin
Kress" explanation which you trot out,for us here.

It discusses the lack of shuttle attitude change when jets are
fired allegedly for that purpose. It wonders at the physical
properties of a small bit of ice "ejecta" that moves off at a
hundred feet per second when it is struck by a gas jet moving at
almost two _thousand_ feet per second. It wonders at these
particles of small "ejecta" that _stop dead_ in space for
measurable periods, and then move off in new directions
_unrelated_ to the thrust vectors of the aforementioned attitude
jets.

Lastly -- at the end of this sequence the camera pans down to
the fuselage of the shuttle, at first horribly blurred, but then
focuses slowly to bring the fuselage into SHARP clarity. The
camera was focused at INFINITY for the sequence -- "ejecta from
the orbiter", sir, would have had to have been _invisible_ to
the viewer of this baffling, unsettling, and anomalous footage.
How do you counter this rebuttle?

Right after this sighting we stopped getting live feeds, too. Is
that not correct? I don't know about Cydonia, or Masonic
influence, but I know when someone is peeing on my leg and
telling me that it's raining. You compel your reader to revisit
those things that you so sullenly decry, sir -- not your
intention, I'm sure.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

>That, in full view, RCS motor firing for 1.2 seconds
>(approximately) on the side of the orbiter is the apparent,
>misinterpreted observation of something, a ray, being fired from
>Earth's surface.

. . .which, as I understand it, should have rotated the camera
angle as much as six degrees. <Hey! does somebody want to help
me wring out my pants leg ? I'm getting SOAKED over here!<g>>

<snip>

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 28 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while
burning at the fundamentalist's stake.






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Dec > Dec 28

                                     Re:

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 08:47:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:20:02 -0500
Subject: Re:


After all the discussion we've had here. I think that David
Bianculli, TV critic of the New York Daily News, deserves the
last word. Here's what he wrote in this morning's paper:


"One of the hoaxes that is likely to remain suppressed in this
one-hour special is that the Fox executives continue to call
themselves programmers, when they really are carnival barkers in
disguise. The network's 'Alien Autopsy' special a few years back
was the bottom of the barrel -- but by revealing that special to
be a hoax, and building another special around that revelation,
is like lifting the bottom of the barrel and becoming one of the
worms that wriggle in the mud."


Greg Sandow





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   Dec > Dec 28

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Kille

From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 10:06:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:23:07 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Kille


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:25:19 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer
>>Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:42:06 -0500

>So the moral is, drink Dr. Gesundt's and you'll either have
>fewer abduction experiences or you won't remember 'em so it
>don't matter.

>We are unable to determine which of these is true.... have fewer
>or remember fewer. But really, Brian, it surely doesn't matter
>anyway, right?

>Jim for Dr. G,
>Hic! Excuse me.

Please email me privately re consignment pricing for private
industrial concerns fronted as Non-Profit entities.  There are a
few small countries we have an interest in acquiring.





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   Dec > Dec 28

                  Top 10 UFO-Related News Stories of 1998?

From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:51:57 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:29:07 -0500
Subject: Top 10 UFO-Related News Stories of 1998?



There were so many UFO-related news stories this year as
compared to previous years, but I believe the following list
represents the biggest, most controversial, and undoubtedly the
most influential stories of the year, the effects of which are
not quite over.

UFO sightings are at an all-time high and this in itself is
probably _The_ biggest story of the year.

The list is not meant to be all inclusive and it was not easy to
list just 10. If you feel another story should have been
included here, do let us know! We may send out a revised list on
Dec. 31. I hope 1999 will bring us closer to full disclosure and
an end to the over 50 year old "official" coverup.

-Ufoseek@aol.com


TOP 10 UFO related New Stories of 1998 (in descending order)

10. NASA Postponement of NEAR Eros Asteroid Landing.

9. Montana UFO Sighting.

8. Triangle Craft over Baghdad.

7. EQ Pegasi - SETI Controversy.

6. Father Conrad Balducci on the Subject of Extraterrestrials.

5. The Death of Col. Philip J. Corso.

4. Sturrock Panel Urges Study of UFO Evidence.

3. 'New' MJ-12 Documents on the Internet.

2. SOHO Spacecraft Images: Anomalous new bodies in our solar
   system?

1. NASA Releases New 'Face on Mars' and Cydonia Images.

____________________________________

Keeping you informed with the latest UFO and alternative News:
UFOSEEK... For the Source! http://www.ufoseek.org





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              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:19:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:32:03 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:56 -0500
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>Have you noticed that after posting a copy of an x-ray from an
>abductee that there have been absolutely no comments or remarks
>on it? (Other than Nick Balaskas)

John -

FYI, I have filed the image you sent. I'm not an X-ray
interpretation specialist, so I am sure any remarks I might make
would be of no particular value. Nevertheless, once some current
committments are out of the way, I intend spending some time
looking at it.

I suspect that the reason this generates a certain amount of
silence is simply that it requires a lot of work and time to
authenticate such a thing. For instance, a complete and
authenticated medical history from the person involved, a new
control X-ray with a careful evidence handling protocol to
ensure no contamination of the image, and, ideally, a CT or MRI
would be desirable to ensure both the authenticity of the image
and a more certain knowledge of the geometry and location of the
object.

Perhaps if an initial look at this image by a disinterested
profession indicates and anomaly, a grant from FUFOR could
be found. Also, the individual would probably be able to make
a good case to their insurer than they had a foreign object in
their body and that additional tests are needed to clarify the
problem. Obviously surgery should be a last resort, and only
should be undertaken if a disinterested physician recommended
it.

Most of the folks on this List are probably bound up in their
own projects, and hope that someone else will follow through.
Also, given the time and effort involved, and the number of
times we have all been burned, there may be a certain amount
of cynicism at work - a rational cynicism, actually, given the
history of evidence in our field.

I hope this is of some help.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo.htm
------






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   Dec > Dec 28

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:31:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:35:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:42:43 +0000
>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Sightings - Czarnik

>To all of you on this cc list and to whomever APANTHA is, all,
>have a very merry Christmas this blessed season and a happy,
>safe, holiday.

>Sincerely to all,


Mr. Stephens,

Glad to have you on this List.

It is always frustrating to get outside posts to which you
cannot reply.  Hopefuly we will now have some feedback.

If EBK will allow it and if the author will forgive me, I will
re-issue an inquiry of Christophe Meessen.  It does ask very
pertinent and very interesting questions.


*****************************

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:39:45 +0100
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
From: Christophe Meessen <meessen@cppm.in2p3.fr>
Subject: Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out


>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:38:16 +0000
>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: NASA Shuttle Mysteries - Contractor Speaks Out

Excuse me but I have problems with the following claims.

>NORAD/Fence database shows no intruder for that date or from
>12-5-1998 to the current time (12-17-1998) in near or far Earth
>space. This is radii from 100,000 miles in all directions from
>Earth's surface. The Silver Veil Reconnaissance satellite, which
>is part of the 15 year old completed, whole-Earth recon and
>surveillance system detects any intruder into Earth's biome down
>to the size of a volleyball. It also detects all spectrums of
>wavelength data out to even femtophoton signals, themselves not
>yet clearly defined by science yet. Thus, even if an intruder
>'phases' into non-mass conditions, Fence will still register the
>intruder in fempto wave patterns. Nothing can broach this.

Do you have access to this database? Can you prove your claim?
What would prove us that you are not yourslef lying to us about
the database content and this NORAD/Fence and Silver Veil
detection capacity. Beside you are still vague about what
exactly is detected.

Could you give us more details on this NORAD/Fence and Silver
Veil?

Are these "tools" designed for detecting Earth's biome
intruders? What are the real purpose of these "tools"?

What are those surveiliance "tools" mesuring? radio wave echo?
Detecting EM waves? They should be able to localize sources of
detected signal, thus they would listen in specific directions.
In what direction do they listen?  Earth, space? If space why?
Do you mean this thing is a duplicate of the SETI work in more
efficient?

Could an hypothetical EM wave silent and EM wave absorbing
object still pass through this fence unoticed? I agree this
technology is not accessible for terrestrian today but I just
want to make sure if one can really fully outrule the
possibility of a solid object going through this fence and veil
unoticed (supposing your are giving the facts and not lying to
us).

You said in other mails that there are unexplained cases that I
guessed may have been detected by these tools. Could you give us
more information on these cases? Have there been any correlation
with visual contact?

I have some dates and locations I would be happy to check. Could
you do help us?

What about the Belgian UFO flap in 89-91. Did your system
detect something?






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                     Dr. G's AWSCHNOTS Service Launched!

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 13:24:45 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:42:57 -0500
Subject: Dr. G's AWSCHNOTS Service Launched!


After reading a CAUS news article on a woman who believed she
had been abducted and implanted by space aliens, because
whenever she stuck her nose down on the grocery store scanner,
the bill came out to $700.... Dr. Jaime Gesundt, sole proprietor
and founder of the now famous Canal Street UFOlogical Research
Society and Discount House of Freshly Made Wines, has an offer
he wishes extend to anyone interested.....

Dr. Gesundt, along with his many other talents, is also a noted
plastic surgeon, specializing in schnozolas. Just as soon as he
heard about Gloria and her experiences at the checkout counter,
he decided to offer his special nasal surgery to the world.

Any and all interested can get Dr. G's Nose job for the special,
one-time fee of $29.95. That's right, only $29.95! Hell, you
can't even get an Earl Scheib auto paint job for that kinda
money no more.

What do you get for only $29.95? You get a special nasal implant
called the HIC. The HIC, an acronym** for "Hidden Integrated
Chip," serves primarily as a nasal locating device in the event
of abductions and has the added benefit of changing the scanner
codes at the supermarket.

With the nose job, Dr. Gesundt supplies, free of charge, a
_Lifetime_ supply of thick glasses. The way it works, at the
grocery checkout counter, you make believe you are extremely
near sighted, see. Then you stick your nose down, close to the
scanner as if to make sure the check-out clerk is properly doing
his job, and like a miracle, the scanner gives you a 17%
discount on your item.

And for the life of your HIC implant, which should love you
_long time_, for the life of it, you will receive a whopping 25%
automatic discount on _EVERY_ bottle of Freshly Made you buy at
the supermarket.

Now, you too, can enjoy the benefits of..

1) Automatic Witnessing Schozola Tracking Services (AWSCHNOTS)**
2) Discounts on your Grocery Bills of up to 17%
3) Discounts on Freshly Mades of up to 25%

You get all this for only $29.95!!

Look for Dr. Gesundt's at grocery stores world wide. Want fast
and friendly delivery? Just call 1-800-GESUNDT and ask for Fred.
He's our friendly delivery person. He'll make arrangements for
Freshly Made at your front door.... or your back door. Just say,
"HIC" and he'll understand. He'll help you read your credit card
or, wait until Freshly Made wears off so you can read it
yourself.

Yours in Fresh Wines and UFO Spirits, Dr. Mortellaro, Director
of Sales and Marketing for Dr G.

*Void where prohibited, taxes and destination charges apply,
 no guarantee of accurate tracking outside of the earth's
 atmosphere!

** This could be a synonym... we at Freshly Made are not sure.
  We just finished off a case.
  HIC! Excuse us.

*** It may be possible that we screwed up these pesky ass turrets.
   But what the hell, eh?

"Whew, sure is warm in here!
Hey, somebody get some cold Freshly Made, eh?





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                    Re: Fox TV Special -- The 'Last' Word

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:52:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:05:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special -- The 'Last' Word


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Fox TV Special -- The 'Last' Word
>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 08:47:08 -0500

>After all the discussion we've had here. I think that David
>Bianculli, TV critic of the New York Daily News, deserves the
>last word. Here's what he wrote in this morning's paper:


>"One of the hoaxes that is likely to remain suppressed in this
>one-hour special is that the Fox executives continue to call
>themselves programmers, when they really are carnival barkers in
>disguise. The network's 'Alien Autopsy' special a few years back
>was the bottom of the barrel -- but by revealing that special to
>be a hoax, and building another special around that revelation,
>is like lifting the bottom of the barrel and becoming one of the
>worms that wriggle in the mud."
>
>
>Greg Sandow

I don't think the general public expects television to be a form
of art, and perhaps one day television critics will stop setting
their sights so high.  I assume that FOX won't state that their
1995 program was a hoax, but rather than it featured a "film"
that they now believe to have been a hoax.  It would seem that
this has given Mr. Bianculli the platform from which he could
criticize a network that he obviously dislikes.

Steve





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                      'Best UFO Cases - Europe' - Book

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:38:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:38:01 -0500
Subject: 'Best UFO Cases - Europe' - Book




Source: http://www.accessnv.com/nids/NIDS_book.shtml

'Best UFO Cases - Europe'

by Illobrand von Ludwiger
with forwards by John Schuessler, Bruce Maccabee & Richard Haines

A NIDS Publication
ISBN 0-9666077-0-8


CONTENTS

 ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
 PREFACE
 Forwards by John Schuessler, Bruce Maccabee and Richard Haines
 About The Author

 1. Early Reports About Unusual Phenomena Over Europe
 1.1 Historical Cases From France, Germany And England
   (16th To 18th Centuries)
 1.2 Foo Fighters and Miracle Weapons
 1.3 Ghost Rockets Over Europe
 1.4 Some of the Most Impressive UFO Cases from European
     Countries

 2 Different Shapes of UFO=92s Seen Over Germany
 2.1 Disk-Shaped Object With Dome on Top Over Messel Near
     Frankfurt
 2.2 Egg-Shaped Object Over the Hochries Mountain Near the
     City of Rosenheim
 2.3 Cigar-Shaped Objects Over Jemgum
 2.4 Star-Shaped Objects Over the City of Ingolstadt
 2.5 The Plauen Case

 3. Triangular Objects Over Europe

 4 The Appearance of Objects With a Complex Structure at
   Different Locations

 5. Early Encounters With Landed UFO=92s and their Occupants in
    Germany
 5.1 Occupants Seen Making No Contact
 5.2 The Langenargen/Lake Constance Case
       5.2.1 Shining Objects over Lake Constance
       5.2.2 The Objects Over the Waldeck Caf=E9
       5.2.3 Strange Beings Appear Suddenly
       5.2.4 Further Witnesses
       5.2.5 After-Effects
       5.2.6. Physical Investigations
       5.2.7 Psychological Investigations
       5.2.8 Regressive Hypnosis Sessions
       5.2.9 Evaluation of the Same Case by a Psychiatrist
       5.2.10 A Man-in Black Appears

 6 UFO Left Metallic Piece in Sweden
 The Find at the Landing Site
 The Metal Object
 Wear Marks of the Edges

 7 Photographic Evidence
 7.1 "Greifswald Lights"
 7.2 The Six Photos of a UFO taken by Guiseppe Lucifora
 7.3 The Famous Nagora Photos

 8 Traces of Unidentified Flying Objects on Military Radar
   Devices over Central Europe
 8.1 The Present Treatment of Unidentifiable Objects by Air
     Defense Systems
 8.2 Failures in the Analysis of Radar Images
 8.3 The Synthetic Display of Air Traffic Control in the
     Central European Airspace
 8.4 Characteristics of Unidentifiable Radar Traces
 8.5 Chaotic Flight Paths
 8.6 Flight Traces Which Show Intelligent Behavior
 8.7 Chief of Military Radar Surveillance Observed Triangular
     Object
 9 Developments and Use of Highly Sensitive Magnetic Field
   Detectors
 10 Physical Interactions Of UFO=92s On Their Surroundings
 10.1 Data Catalogues and Statistical Analyses
 10.2 Two Electromagnetic Interferences With The Same Car, In
      Denmark
 10.3 Physical Effects After A UFO Landing In Trans-En-Provence,
      France
 11 Hypotheses About The Origin Of UFO=92s
 11.1 General Remarks
 11.2 The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis
 11.3 Psychological and Paranormal Theories
 11.4 Psychic Projection
 11.5 The Tectonic Strain Theory (TST)
 11.6 The Earth Light Hypothesis
 11.7 Parallel Universes
 11.8 The Interdimensional Theory
 11.9 The Projector Theory
 11.10 Time Travel

 Appendix A Reliability Index According to Olsen
 Appendix B Goals and Activities of MUFON-CES
 MUFON-CES Reports
 Literature

<snip - ordering details>






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                            Test - Please Ignore

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:53:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:53:18 -0500
Subject: Test - Please Ignore

ebk



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   Dec > Dec 28

              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:04:11 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:22:14 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer
>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 10:06:40 -0500

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:25:19 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>>>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer
>>>Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:42:06 -0500

>>So the moral is, drink Dr. Gesundt's and you'll either have
>>fewer abduction experiences or you won't remember 'em so it
>>don't matter.

>>We are unable to determine which of these is true.... have fewer
>>or remember fewer. But really, Brian, it surely doesn't matter
>>anyway, right?

>>Jim for Dr. G,
>>Hic! Excuse me.

>Please email me privately re consignment pricing for private
>industrial concerns fronted as Non-Profit entities.  There are a
>few small countries we have an interest in acquiring.


Dear Brian and List.... everything we here at Dr. Gesundt's is
above board and pubic.... I mean, "public!"  So I will attempt
to negotiate via this list first.  We can speak later,
privately.

Oops.  Sorry Brian, Dr. Gesundt does not consign.  His personal
motto is, "Neither a lender nor a consigner be!"  This motto
replaced his previous motto, which was, "Never give anybody an
even break, especially if he's been drinking Freshly Made!!"

And so, we can discuss an open arrangement with your, uh,
"Clients."  Freshly Made will consider assigning distribution to
your clients, but Freshly Made gets 90% of the take and 75% of
the GNP of the country or countries, under consideration.  An
equittable deal, wouldn't you say?

As a pot sweetener, we can throw in free training for Dr. G's
AWSCHNOTS factory nasal consultants in that country or
countries.  But we get half the take on that deal too.... that'd
be, $14.50 a nose job.  We supply the implants and we do the
tracking whenever a client gets abducted.  But your people buy
and paint the delivery trucks and _must_ purchase our special
nasal implant machine from Dr. Gesundt's.

Run it up the flag pole and see who salutes.  ***

Let's do lunch!    ****

Dr. Mortellaro

Assorted *****'s (These are technical marketing terms)






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                         Re: STS-88 Anomalous Object

From: Michel M. Deschamps <739411@ican.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 12:03:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:28:09 -0500
Subject: Re: STS-88 Anomalous Object


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>To: UFO UpDates Subscribers:;
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: STS-88 Anomalous Object
>Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 4:01 PM

>Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:31:24 -0500
>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: STS-88 Anomalous Object

>A friend of mine saw an anomalous object pass behind the shuttle:

>"I saw a big dot moved slowly on real time NASA-TV picture while
>2 astronauts performing last space walk at 2:40 GMT, if anybody
>recorded the video, it can be seen clearly."

>His description was similar to the object seen to pass the field
>of view during the Hubble repair mission.  As list members might
>recall, after this object passed by, NASA defocused the camera,
>pointed it toward the cargo bay and ended the video
>transmission.

>Did anyone happen to record the last space walk of STS-88?


I haven't seen the STS-88 footage nor the mission, but I did
record some portions of the Hubble Telescope Repair Mission. As
the astronauts were about to replace the wide-angle lens (or
something to that effect) on the telescope, an object moved
horizontally, from right to left, passing behind the boot of the
astronaut on the right.

At first, I thought it might have been a piece of lint from the
spacesuit or something, but then, I realized that its movement
had nothing to do with those of the astronaut.

What I found even more weird was the fact that even though the
object was in plain sight before it went behind the boot, no one
commented on it at all, as if there was nothing there. The
object was white and oval-shaped, and was not "tumbling in
space".  Above it, you could see the curvature of the earth
surrounded by nothing but dark space.  Interesting piece of
footage, if you ask me.

----------






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                      UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 52

From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 20:37:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:31:38 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 3, Number 52

    UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 3, Number 52
December 28, 1998
Editor: Joseph Trainor

THOUSANDS WITNESS UFO OVERFLIGHT IN MEXICO

On Saturday, December 5, 1998, between 7 and 7:30 p.m.,
thousands of people in the states of Jalisco and
Aguascaliente in Mexico watched a UFO described as "a
very bright white light" fly over the Sierra Madre mountains.

The UFO was seen in the cities of Chapala, Ocotlan, Tototlan,
Yahualica, Teocaltiche, Villa Hidalgo and Tepatitlan in Jalisco
state and in Calvillo and Ciudad Aguascaliente in
Aguascaliente state.

Many sightings were reported around Lago (Lake) de
Chapala, located in Jalisco state about 440 kilometers (275
miles) west of Mexico City.

According to eyewitness Karen H., who watched the UFO
from her mountainside home near Lago de Chapala, "The sky
was clear, nothing but stars. Apparently the light was seen
from all over the state of Jalisco, leading me to believe it was
very high up and very bright. Because we are in the Sierra
Madre mountains, at approximately 5,200 feet (1,635
meters), to me it appeared to be just a few kilometers away,
over the south side of Lake Chapala."

"It had to have been very high, and I thought it was maybe
1,000 to 2,000 meters (3,300 to 6,600 feet) high. But if it was
seen from Aguascaliente, the state north of us, then it would
have had to have been very high, maybe many kilometers up
in the sky."

"The light was traveling west to northeast. They were saying it
then changed direction from west to southeast. There was no
color, just bright light like a large spotlight. At first my husband
thought it was a helicopter with a spotlight, but there was no
noise. It seemed to move in a slow, steady direction. From my
perspective it changed direction at the last moment." (Email
Interview)

(For more on the Jalisco mass sightings, see the
English-language newspaper Guadalajara Colony Reporter
for December 7, 1998.)

(Editor's Note: This type of "bright light" UFO was first
reported in the annals of Ixcoatl, the Aztec king who built
Tenochtitlan--now Mexico City-- back in 1431, the same year
Joan of Arc was burned at the stake. Aztec legends tell of a
mysterious race called the Ixal (Nahuatl for "Dark Ones"--J.T.),
who are described as a "three-feet-tall (0.9 meters) hairy
black humanoid" who "flies through the air and steals
women." A similar "bright light" UFO was seen over
Tenejapa, in Chiapas state, on November 24, 1967 by
California anthropologist Brian Stoss.)


CHUPACABRA RAIDS HOME IN CAYEY, PUERTO RICO

On Thursday, December 24, 1998, at approximately 5 a.m.,
Luis Diaz heard a strange noise coming from the poultry yard
behind his house. But it wasn't Santa Claus--it was the
Chupacabra!

Diaz resides in the Colinas Verdes section of barrio Beatriz
in Cayey, a small city at the intersection of Highways 1 and
167 about 33 miles (52 kilometers) south of San Juan, Puerto
Rico. Hearing the odd sound, Diaz "upon opening his window
to investigate, was startled to see a strange animal over his
birds."

"According to Diaz, the alleged Chupacabra killed 15 hens,
two ducks and a variety of smaller poultry." The dead birds
showed "perforations in the neck and near the abdomen
where the Chupacabra supposedly sucked their blood."

"'This animal either flies or is capable of extremely high
jumps,' Diaz said, noting that the strange animal "'attacked
them from above. It did not stop its attack for any given
moment.'"

Strangely, "there were nine dogs at the Diaz residence which
did not bark at any time during the attack."

"Diaz described the creature as having copper- colored fur,
very long hind legs, short front legs and a broad body."

"'I didn't believe in the Chupacabra. I thought it was something
else.'" But he quickly changed his mind when he saw "'the
creature attacking (his) chickens the same day and killing
them,'" Diaz said, adding that he would "stand watch against
the Chupacabra" to "protect the rest of his birds." (See the
newspaper El Vocero of San Juan, P.R. for December 24,
1998, "Chupacabras Reappears in Cayey,' by Ivonne Y.
Rosario. Many thanks to Scott Corrales, author of
CHUPACABRAS AND OTHER MYSTERIES, for forwarding
the newspaper article.)


GROUP INVESTIGATES UFO SIGHTINGS IN
ARGENTINA

On Friday, December 11, 1998, the group Red Argentina de
Ovniologia (Argentinian Net of Ufology) held a press
conference, revealing that they have compiled a total of 40
UFO sightings in their South American country during 1998.

RAO coordinator Carlos Ferguson said his group is
investigating two intriguing cases of UFOs filmed hovering
over the South Atlantic seaport city of Mar del Plata, located
385 kilometers (241 miles) south of Buenos Aires, the
national capital.

According to the Argentinian news agency TELAM, "On
August 27, 1998, an OVNI (Spanish acronym for UFO--J.T.)
was seen by witnesses near the harbor area of Puerto
Marplatense at 7:07 p.m.--a nocturnal hour in this part of the
world--and was captured on film during the 51-second
encounter."

"On September 12, 1998, at 7:30 p.m., witnesses who were
in the harborside zone of Mar del Plata saw a UFO and filmed
it for 89 seconds."

"'In both cases, they saw luminous discs with certain circular
or ovoidal forms, with secondary lights, and traveling through
a fringe of airspace,' said Ferguson, who added that 'at the
time, climactic conditions were good.'" (Muchas gracias a
Jesus Millan para esas noticias de TELAM.)

(Editor's Note: UFOs have been seen many times near the
harbors of Argentina. In June 1959, the Argentinian Navy
chased an unidentified submerged object (USO) in the Rio de
la Plata south of Bueno Aires. And on September 30, 1964, a
man saw luminous discs emerge from the sea and take off
near Comodoro Rivadavia.)


SPHERICAL ORANGE UFO SPOTTED IN MELBOURNE

On Thursday night, December 24, 1998, at 10:40 p.m.,
Darren B. was at his home in Sunshine, Melbourne, Victoria
state, Australia when his sister and her friend suddenly rushed
outside.

"My sister and her friend rushed out of the house into the
backyard," he reported, "It took me about a minute to get
dressed and into the backyard where I found my sister and
her friend really shaken."

"They described seeing a bright orange ball of light in the sky
at about the height of an aircraft and as big as the moon, if it
was full. It approached from the northwest and travelled in a
south-southeast direction before vanishing behind the
treeline. I didn't get out of the house in time to witness the
object, although I wish I had."

"They saw it for about a minute and said it was travelling in a
straight line a bit faster than an aircraft. There was no sound
heard from it. They said it was definitely not an aircraft or a
meteor. The witnesses did not believe in UFOs prior to their
experience." (Email Interview)


FAST FLYBY IN UTAH

On Wednesday, December 23, 1998, at 9:15 p.m., Manuel
F., his wife and a couple of other witnesses watched three
UFOs fly over the Wasatch mountain range in Park City, Utah
(population 4,468).

"Tonight...my wife and I saw three bright white lights in a
triangular formation silently streak across the sky at a
tremendous speed, at first in a straight line and then make a
left turn and recede until they disappeared, over the space of
about five seconds. Did anyone else see this?"

Park City is a popular ski resort on the eastern slope of the
Wasatch range, located about 32 miles (51 kilometers) east
of Salt Lake City, the state capital. (Many thanks to Stig
Agermose for forwarding this item.)


DESPITE MYSTERIOUS BLACKOUT, NEAR
PROCEEDS TO EROS

The Near Earth Asteroid Rendezvous (NEAR) spacecraft
photographed its target--the asteroid Eros--as it began its
close approach on Wednesday, December 23, 1998.

NEAR shot 28 images of Eros between 10:44 a.m. and 12:44
p.m. During this period, the asteroid completed 50 percent of
a rotation. (Eros takes four hours to complete a rotation on its
axis. So one Earth day is equal to six Erosian days--J.T.)

As the spacecraft's camera clicked away, NEAR traveled four
thousand miles closer to Eros, going from a point 7,300 miles
(11,100 kilometers) to 3,300 miles (5,300 kilometers) from
the asteroid.

NEAR's Multispectral Imager recorded 1,100 images of the
asteroid, "to determine the size, shape, morphology,
rotational status and color properties of Eros and to search
for small moons."

The Infrared Spectrometer searched the asteroid for
minerals, while the onboard Magnetometer studied its
magnetic field.

The last lap of NEAR's flight to Eros was not without mishap,
however.

On Sunday evening, December 20, 1998, the mission team
at Johns Hopkins University began "a series of rocket firings"
to "send the small spacecraft into an orbit of Eros to complete
a journey of almost three years."

"Contact was lost about 5 p.m. Sunday as the spacecraft was
being accelerated to catch the asteroid Eros at about 240
million miles from Earth."

NEAR suddenly "shut itself down and began running in a
so-called 'safe mode' just as its speed was being boosted by
a series of rocket engine firings."

For the next 27 hours, there was no contact with the robot
spacecraft.

"At about 8 p.m. ET Monday," December 21, 1998, NASA's
Deep Space Network "located the craft's signal."

"'I think we're pretty much convinced the signal was there all
along,' said Helen Worth, a spokeswoman for the Johns
Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory in Laurel,
Maryland, which build the craft."

"But even a small deviation in the position of the spacecraft
could have caused scientists to lose the signal, she said."

"NEAR is to spend almost a year orbiting within nine miles of
the surface of Eros, a brick-shaped object 25 miles by 9
miles in size. Using six instruments, the robot will probe the
asteroid and determine its chemistry, mineral content, mass
and density." (See USA Today for December 23, 1998,
"Spacecraft back in contact but orbit of asteroid delayed,"
and the Boston, Mass. Herald of December 22, 1998,
"Spacecraft found after going MIA.")

(Editor's Comment: Here we go again. Another Earth
spacecraft that rotated out of position, just like the Galaxy IV
back in May. Why did NEAR suddenly go into "safe mode"
defensive position? Did its onboard radar pick up something
making an approach? Questions, questions...)


Y2K CRISIS SPURS GROWTH OF SURVIVAL
ENCLAVES

The Y2K computer crisis has spurred a number of people to
set up their own survival enclaves to ride out the Millenium.
Three were featured in newspapers over the weekend.

According to the New York Times Magazine, one such place
is High 54 Ranch, located near Concho, Arizona (population
400), about 141 miles (225 kilometers) southeast of Flagstaff.

"High 54 is an in-the-works survivalism community. The rural
retreat is still under construction, but soon hopes to offer
amenities like underground living quarters, 24-hour armed
security, perimeter guards, wind-and-solar power sources
and a barter economy."

"Potential members are required to arrive with at least a
one-year supply of food and at least one rifle and one
handgun per family, preferably with 1,000 rounds of ammo
per weapon. Gas masks, though not required, are highly
recommended."

(Editor's Note: Interestingly, Concho was the site of a cattle
mutilation back in September.)

Another one is Prayer Lake, located near Kingston, Arkansas
(population 130), a town about 165 miles (264 kilometers)
north of Little Rock, the state capital.

"Bob Rutz, 67, an engineer and entrepreneur, is another
'builder' on the Y2K survivalism scene. Rutz and his wife,
Joan, are constructing Prayer Lake, a 700-acre Christian
community in the hills of northwest Arkansas. Rutz hopes 100
families buy three-acre plots and get back to simple ways of
living; plowing with mules, reading by kerosene lamps,
drinking from springs and wells."

"'I look at this as Judgement Day,' he says."

Finally, there is God's Wilderness in Finland, Minnesota
(population 80), on Highway 1 and County Road 7, located 65
miles (104 kilometers) northeast of Duluth. This enclave "bills
itself as a relocation site for Christians, offering land complete
with cabin, well pump, stove, greenhouse, shed and
outhouse."

"David and Johanna Hecker, who own the site say on their
Web page that they knew nothing about Y2K worries until they
tried to sell some land and got inquiries from people looking
for a place to escape." (See the New York Times Magazine
for December 27, 1998, "Apocalypse Now. No, Really. Now!"
pages 40 to 43. Also the Providence, R.I. Sunday Journal,
page A18.)


PREHISTORIC WRITING FOUND IN EGYPT

"Clay tablets uncovered in southern Egypt from the tomb of a
king named Scorpion might represent the earliest known
writing by humankind, an archaeologist said Tuesday."

"Gunter Dreyer, head of the German Archaeological Institute,
said the tablets record linen and oil deliveries made about
5,300 years ago as tithe (taxes) to King Scorpion the First."

(Editor's Note: Or about 500 years before Menes united the
two kingdoms of Upper and Lower Egypt and crowned
himself Pharoah.)

"He said the tablets have been carbon-dated with certainty to
between 3300 and 3200 B.C."

"The Egyptian writings, in the form of line drawings of
animals, plants and mountains, are the first evidence that
hieroglyphics used by latter-day Pharoanic dynasties did not
'rise as Phoenix from the ashes' but developed gradually,
Dreyer said."

"'Linguists now have a larger history (of writing) to regard,' he
said."

"The bulk of Dreyer's discovery is from Scorpion's tomb in a
cemetery in the Suhag province, 300 miles south of Cairo."
(See USA Today for December 16, 1998, "Ancient writings, a
timeless subject." page 3A.)

(Editor's Comment: Among the pictographs found by Dreyer is the
"warrior-with-shield" motif. Curiously, this same figure is
found on the seals of the Harappan civilization at Mohenjo-Daro,
Pakistan, on the rongorongo boards of Rapanui (better known as
Easter Island), on the rock art of southern Algeria. And now,
here it is on the clay tablets of pre-Pharaonic Upper Egypt..
Wonder what it means...)


from the UFO Files...

1909: DUFFY'S ENCOUNTER

Wrapping up this year's look back at the December 1909
"airship" flap in New England, UFO Roundup presents this
incident, which took place in Lynn, Massachusetts, near
Boston, on December 23, 1909, the night thousands of
Christmas shoppers watched a mysterious object hover over
Boston.

At 7 p.m., James Duffy of Silsbee Street, Lynn, was walking
down Union Street in that community "when his attention was
attracted by a swishing sound similar to that made by a flock
of wild geese directly over his head."

"Gazing upward, he said he saw four bright lights and a big
black object which was travelling at such a high rate of speed
that he was able to obtain only a fleeting glimpse of it." (See
the Lynn, Mass. Evening News for December 24, 1909. See
also Fortean Studies, volume 1, "The New England Airship
Invastion of 1909" by Joseph Trainor, page 67.)


FUN UFO WEBSITES:

For an update on the NEAR spacecraft, check out the
Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab site at
this URL: http://near.juhapl.edu

Joel Henry informs me that Minnesota MUFON has an
updated website. Try it out at
http://www.visi.com/~jhenry/index.html

Alfredo Lissoni of CUN says the New Italian X-Files are up
and running. Drop in at
http://members.tripod.com/~ufocun/index0a.html

Start the New Year off right. Check out what's new at our
parent site, UFOINFO. For the best in features, news, photos
and links, log in at http://ufoinfo.com

Back issues of UFO Roundup can be accessed, read and
downloaded from our webpage at
http://ufoinfo.com/roundup


LAST REFLECTIONS ON THE YEAR:

Well, believe it or not, this wraps up Volume 3 of UFO
Roundup. Once again, your editor would like to take this
opportunity to thank the many readers who contributed news
items and news stories to UFO Roundup. Thanks, people.
Without you, I never could have gotten the job done.

As the year closes, let me welcome aboard our new readers
from Croatia, Slovenia, Greece, Austria, Sweden, Ecuador,
Zambia and Zimbabwe. Stick with us, gang, as we plunge
headlong into Nostradamus's big year---1999.

UFO Roundup will continue to provide attribution whever
possible for each item that appears in the newsletter.

UFO Roundup will also diligently protect the confidentiality of
UFO witnesses who are interviewed by our newsletter. No
witness's full name or address will be published unless that
witness gives UFO Roundup specific and explicit permission
to do so in writing.

Once again, I'd like to reiterate the UFO Roundup Pledge--to
bring you complete and comprehensive coverage of the
continuing drama of the unidentified flying object.

Here's wishing you all a "Happy New Year!" from "the paper
that goes home--UFO Roundup."

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1998 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post
news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or in
newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter
and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which
the item first appeared.







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 28

                   Re: Dr. G's AWSCHNOTS Service Launched!

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 16:14:23 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:34:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Dr. G's AWSCHNOTS Service Launched!


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 13:24:45 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Dr. G's AWSCHNOTS Service Launched!

>After reading a CAUS news article on a woman who believed she
>had been abducted and implanted by space aliens, because
>whenever she stuck her nose down on the grocery store scanner,
>the bill came out to $700.... Dr. Jaime Gesundt, sole proprietor
>and founder of the now famous Canal Street UFOlogical Research
>Society and Discount House of Freshly Made Wines, has an offer
>he wishes extend to anyone interested.....

<snip>


"Whew, sure is warm in here!
>Hey, somebody get some cold Freshly Made, eh?


Hey there,

Sounds like a product which could be endorsed by the Nearsight
Institute.

Wanna apply for our official endorsement?

Bob Shell, Director
Nearsight Institute






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                         Re: The Skeptical Believer

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 17:24:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:42:44 -0500
Subject: Re: The Skeptical Believer


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 21:06:36 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Skeptical Believer

>Regarding the not so amazing Randi, he makes the calim that if
>he went to a violin player on the street and offered him one
>million dollars to play the violin, then the guy would saw away
>in no time. But what Randi leaves out is that the guy would have
>to play at a certain level of proficiency (did I spell that
>right?) that only Randi or his team is allowed to define. If the
>guy doesn't suit them (Randi), then no million dollars. Neat
>scam, huh?

Perfect analogy, Roger (speaking as a musician myself). I've
often thought that psychic abilities appear to work more like
art than like perception. Ask a violinist to play, and you'll
get all kinds of performances, even from the same person.
Sometimes they'll miss dozens of notes, sometimes they'll be
perfect. Sometimes they'll get inside the music, sometimes not.
Put 'em up against a wall -- scrutinize them with a dubious eye,
letting them know you doubt they can play well -- and all but
the very best will wilt.

Singers are even worse. There's hardly a tenor alive who
(assuming he has a high C at all) can guarantee that his high C
will work on any given day.  Yes, the best come through, night
after night, but they tend to be terrified.

Randi, it seems to me, has defined so-called psychic powers in a
way that almost guarantees they won't show up in his challenge.

Greg Sandow





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              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 18:29:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:48:24 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer
>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:19:03 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:56 -0500
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Subject: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>>Have you noticed that after posting a copy of an x-ray from an
>>abductee that there have been absolutely no comments or remarks
>>on it? (Other than Nick Balaskas)

>John -

>FYI, I have filed the image you sent. I'm not an X-ray
>interpretation specialist, so I am sure any remarks I might make
>would be of no particular value. Nevertheless, once some current
>committments are out of the way, I intend spending some time
>looking at it.

>I suspect that the reason this generates a certain amount of
>silence is simply that it requires a lot of work and time to
>authenticate such a thing. For instance, a complete and
>authenticated medical history from the person involved, a new
>control X-ray with a careful evidence handling protocol to
>ensure no contamination of the image, and, ideally, a CT or MRI
>would be desirable to ensure both the authenticity of the image
>and a more certain knowledge of the geometry and location of the
>object.

>Perhaps if an initial look at this image by a disinterested
>profession indicates and anomaly, a grant from FUFOR could
>be found. Also, the individual would probably be able to make
>a good case to their insurer than they had a foreign object in
>their body and that additional tests are needed to clarify the
>problem. Obviously surgery should be a last resort, and only
>should be undertaken if a disinterested physician recommended
>it.

Hi Mark,

Yes, very helpful indeed. Someone already suggested that I
contact Rich Hall at FUFOR but, I'm waiting to get some
indication from an 'independent' that there is something there
worth checking in the first place. Like yourself I am not a
radiologist and I have no idea if the thing is legit or not
myself. (ergo the request for help to the members of the list in
securing a professional!) The 'subject' is willing to cooperate
in any way that he can. (ie; provide medical history or records,
submit to updated x-rays or other exams, etc.) So if this
material turns out to be legit, we'll have a "good case" to
study.

I am persueing this because the stuff from Sims & Lier has been
a blind alley, at least in terms of reliability and
documentation. (NIDS is a Bigelow owned joke. So is Sims' & Lier's
"F.I.R.S.T."  I don't trust _anything_ that comes from those
quarters.)

This 'subject' has not been hypnotized or exposed to _any_
researchers, and he remains 'relatively' uncontaminated. Most
importantly he is willing to cooperate. I want as little to do
with the proceedings as possible so that no one points to me as
a source of 'contamination.' Other than what I received in his
introductory letter to me, I have kept communication down to a
bare minimum. I have not discussed anything related to any
abduction reports or experiences with him myself. Strictly
business.

Obviously _he_ suspects alien intervention or he would not have
contacted me, but other than promising to get help having his
medical material analysed by independent experts, I have not
engaged in much dialog with him. Let the doctors do that if they
think there is something anomalous in the x-rays.

I have asked him for permission to use the materials and any
test results (if any.) Those will be posted for all via this
list and the one that I moderate for experiencers at AIC.
Everything will also be posted to the IF website. Again, _free_
for _all_.

Any information that sheds _any_ light on this murky subject
should be made accessible to all. I don't believe in hoarding
(which has always been my beef with folks like Bigelow) and this
isn't about "writing a book myself" as some have accused me.
It's simple for me. I am an abductee. I need to know what is
going on. No one else is looking. So, I'm "doing it" myself! My
daddy always told me; "If it needs doing, do it yourself!" And
here we are. <VBG>

I am waiting to hear from Nick Balaskas (York University) to
arrange for the transfer and return of the x-rays and 'other
material' that I have. If the radiologists he knows find
anything worth investigating we will move on from there and
secure whatever info or funding is necessary to advance an
investigation. At that time FUFOR will become a key element.
Also, by that time I will be well removed from the whole
process. My involvement will be _only_ to make sure that any
results get published publicly, and for free. (Whether fer or
agin)

Thanx for the info and time Mark. Much appreciated. (Your post
beats the hell out of the, "who said what to who and when" type
of BS responses that I've gotten from a few! <G>) Thank you for
your serious consideration and response.

Will keep _all_ updated via this list.

Peace,

John Velez


________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________





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                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 17:26:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:52:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:59:37 -0500
>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>How long did Larsen serve in CIC, and precisely what did he do?

>Dear Greg,

>If you need any information on Sherm Larsen please contact my
>good friend on this List, Jerome Clark. Jerry has stated
>publicly that he knows everything there is to know about him.
>In fact I am finding it hard to believe that he has not posted
>this information to this List just to prove that he does know
>everything.

I take this to mean -- until proven otherwise -- that you don't
know the answer to my very simple, very uncomplicated question.

Greg Sandow





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                      Re: Korff Spams The News Groups!

From: Kal Korff <KalKorff@KalKorff.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 16:49:47 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:15:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Korff Spams The News Groups!

>Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 12:31:09 -0600
>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Korff spams the News Groups!

Dear List:

Alfred Lehmberg posted the following emails below, claiming I
had "spammed" various email groups. Funny, but these groups
don't seem to think so -- with over 70 replies so far and
counting!! I guess one person's "spam" is another person's
simple posting trying to set the record straight.

Also, with all due respect to Alf, I will let the newsgroup
monitors make this determination, since their opinions on this
issue are the only ones that count -- perhaps to the chagrin of
Mr. Lehmberg.

In another post, I will respond to Dr. Bond Johnson.


Alfred Lehmberg says:

>>Kal Korff sullenly spewed the following in Usenet over
>>Christmas:

>>Over the past year or so, certain individuals have made the
>>claim that I am a "UFO debunker" or some sort of secret CIA
>>agent and other, offensive thing.

>No Kal -- certain individuals assert that your research is done
>by proclamation, that your results are skewed in favor of your
>own personal (and stunted) views, beliefs, and dark agendas, and
>that your conclusions ignore propriety to return us to the
>status of bush-eating cave dwellers. Any of these things is much
>more offensive than _all_ of the fatuous strawmen that you would
>suggest for us, here.

>>I hereby CHALLENGE these accusers to PROVE this. WHY?

>. . . Proved over and over. Seems like Art Bell had you
>squealing  like Ned Beatty in "Deliverance" a while ago
>regarding your crass and libelous prevarication. Your
>associations with Kiviat, and the canted publisher of your
>cheap debunking efforts suggests more than a paucity of
>trustworthy credibility -- and, lastly, your failure to respond
>intelligently and convincingly to civil questions posed on the
>UFO UpDates List out of Toronto . . .speaks to a plethora of
>indicators that you are assuredly NOT what you _say_ you are.

>>Because the TRUTH is, this is NOT so!

>Anybody that uses the word "Truth" as often as you do (and
>capitalizes it) has got to be as crooked as a Rocky Mountain
>logging road. SO!

>>I, of all people, should and certainly do know where I stand on
>>the subject of UFOs. I am NOT a debunker, but simply a
>>RESEARCHER, period!!

>"[YOU] of all people"? Seems to me that the _quality_
>researchers (on _this_ planet, anyway) disagree with you, Mr.
>Korff. I wonder why that is?

>>Deal with it.

>. . .Daily! And anywhere you say!

>>Yes, I have exposed hoaxes, and some humdingers, but so what!??
>>THAT's what a good UFO researcher is supposed to do--
>>investigate and call >them >as they are.

>More unsubstantiated and vacuous proclamations, Mr. Korff.

>>Again, let these naysayers come forth with their "evidence" or
>>simply acknowledge the TRUTH and get on with it.

>You begin to bore me, sir. That's a _good_ thing. Perhaps I
>won't respond to you as often <g>.

>>Well, any challengers or takers?

>They've always been there -- will continue to be there, and are
>there as we speak! _You_ don't respond to _them_, Mr. Korff!
>There's some real irony there, don't you think?

>>Respectfully yours,

>I don't think your brands of intellectual cowardice, and ethical
>bankruptcy is very respectful at all -- no rational person
>_would_.

>>Kal Korff Author, "The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want
>>You to Know" and "Spaceships of the Pleiades: The Billy Meier
>>Story"

>Your tiresome tomes of turgid TRVTH!   <=D6>   ! I know you're
>spamming the ng's to drum up an audience for your latest
>televised retreat to the medieval . . . I think a more
>enlightened use of their time is to look for a re-run of Mutual
>of Omaha's "Wild Kingdom" and watch THAT. We're waiting for you
>in Toronto, Kal. Please grace us with a visit. < . . .maybe a
>"Barney" episode>

>Lehmberg@snowhill.com

To which I, Kal Korff respond:

Alfred: 1) You have not seen the Fox special. So, I find your
'judging' it via psychic means ahead of time to be most absurd,
revealing, and speaks volumes about yourself.

2) WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOUR POINTS HERE? Please RE-STATE THEM so I
can understand them!

Sounds to me like you're just going off on a personal, cheap
tirade here with obvious deeply emotional overtones. So again,
Al, WHAT IS/ARE your points here?

3) As is entirely predictable, you don't REFUTE a single thing I
have said!! Instead, you revert to name calling and other
tactics....the very same things you accuse me and others of
doing for the wrong reasons. I guess when YOU do it, it is "OK".

I guess some people really are legends in their own mind.


Next, in another posting, Lehmberg says thus about me:

<snip>

>On reflection, I think it is the faux think-cloak of guileless
>respectability that you pull around your self for cover,
>camouflage, or concealment that makes me see red when you float
>your unconvincing assertions. I've searched _my_ feelings
>regarding a direct relationship between how mad I get with how
>right they/you might be. I'm genuinely concerned that I may be
>too quick to accept the anomalous in a vain attempt to escape,
>say, a cruel blood, tooth, and claw reality that we maintain for
>ourselves in uneasy deference to the men you SAY you don't work
>for . . .<g>. You are, perhaps, an innocent true believing tool
>in your own right, but I don't think so, Mr. Korff. With regard
>to you, every one of my bells go off to signify that the road is
>closed, the poke is empty, or the path's an illusion. I think
>you're a shill, sir, a mechanism to jerk us back and forth
>across the line of credulity so hard and often we don't know
>WHAT to believe. I hammer YOU so incessantly because, I suppose,
>you're the most obvious of the bottom stirrers, and can be so
>readily exposed. Everything you are seemingly about,
>irrespective of your loss leading, and probably fabricated, UFO
>sightings, wordlessly suggests that EVERYTHING about UFOs is
>bunk! I can perform an ACTUAL search of about one night sky in
>twenty to discover that that is, simply, just not true. I put
>_that_ together with the thinking of brave people like Van
>Gemert, Zeiler, Rudiak, Friedman, Gaines, Hynek, et al -- stir
>in the counter arguments persons such as yourself, Todd, Stewart
>--other *respected* pundits of your mainstream host, and
>discover that something is going on that you are working
>_passionately_ to keep us from looking at, thinking about, or
>discovering. The harder you work, and the more frenzied you are,
>the more _convinced_ I become that this is so. Perhaps it's the
>*seemingly* openhanded, you-can-buy-a-car-from-me attitude you
>typify, that puts my teeth on edge in aggravated irritation. It
>is the very real possibility that you will be _successful_ that
>is the kicker, I suppose -- the final injury on top of insult as
>the truth you *champion* is subverted to sell soap for your
>shortsightedly misleading publishers, producers, and pundits.

><sigh>

1) Alfred, again, WHAT is/are your points here?

2) Could you please RE-STATE it/them in terms that are much more
easy to be understood??

In order to write a REAL response, I need to understand your points
first!!

Respectfully yours,

Kal Korff Author, "Spaceships of the Pleiades: The Billy Meier
Story" and "The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You to
Know" -- much to the chagrin (I guess) of Alfred Lehmberg.





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                             Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:14:30 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:27:37 -0500
Subject: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


I just saw the revelations of K Squared...  Well, truth or not,
the man sure did his level best to provide the worst possible
reasons for "some" of his expose (accent grave).

Billy's Budd... Billy's "ex-wife!"?!?  Well, she sure makes a
good witness, eh?

Stride Right Shoes presents... "This man's 'walk' looks just
like Big Foot's walk!  Look, aint it obvious?"

There are more, but these are representative of the Best Bully
Scheiss Mr. K Squared has to offer.  It so bad.... (How bad is
it?) It's _SO_ bad, it makes the hoax look good.

I mean, get real babes... even if you got it right, you got it
wrong.

I have only _one_ question.  Kal Baby, are you related to Dr.
Gesundt or are you just drinking his Fresh Made?

Jim





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              Native Americans May Have Had Sun Calendar 4,000

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 04:02:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:33:41 -0500
Subject: Native Americans May Have Had Sun Calendar 4,000


[List only]

Source: AFP via the Nando Times. URL:

http://www.nandotimes.com/noframes/story/0,2107,2740-4667-33845-0,00.html

Stig

*******

Native Americans may have had sun calendar 4,000 years ago

Copyright =A91998 Nando Media
Copyright =A91998 Agence France-Press

MIAMI (December 28, 1998 6:22 p.m. EST
http://www.nandotimes.com) - Archaeologists believe they have
found a 4,000-year-old stone calender carved by Tequesta Native
Americans in downtown Miami, the Miami Herald newspaper reported
Monday.

The 38-foot round stone, pockmarked with small notches and
holes, was unearthed at a construction site on Bricknell Key
near Miami's financial district, in August.

"It's a stunning find. The holes could have been used as a way
to measure the time, the sun, the stars," Miami historian Paul
George was quoted as saying.

"It shows tremendous intelligence on their part, carving
something using rudimentary tools," George added.

As yet there is no clear plan to recover or preserve the
artifacts.

The Tequestas disappeared shortly after Spanish explorer Ponce
de Leon arrived in Florida in 1513, victims of European diseases
and wars.


Copyright =A91998 Nando Media






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                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:09:30 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:38:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 06:50:09 -0600
>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Sightings - Czarnik

>I have this STS-48 footage, sir, with its introduction by Dr.
>Haines and a seemingly reasonable explanation by Dr. Jack
>Kasher. His analysis _destroys_  the NASA supplied "Martin
>Kress" explanation which you trot out,for us here.

Hi Alfred...I also have this footage.  I have to agree with you
on your assessment.


You are also correct about the NASA feeds reverting from live
feeds. Right after this incident, NASA, inserted a ten second
delay in the signal, so they could inspect the video prior to
feeding it to the Networks...

>Lehmberg@snowhill.com

REgards, Mike


ICQ#:7508455.
(502) 683-6811






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                          'World's Greatest Hoaxes'

From: Jacques Poulet <jpoulet@chucara.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:22:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:46:50 -0500
Subject: 'World's Greatest Hoaxes'


List and Kal Korff,

I just watch 'World�s Greatest Hoaxes: Secrets Finally Revealed'
and I must say that I am quite disappointed. Not much in there
to convince me one way or the other. Let�s  critique it one
segment at a time.

Bigfoot
Most cases shown were already known to be hoaxes, or at least
suspected. Most but not all. The Patterson film is the only one
which, in my opinion, still stands. The testimony of Clyde
Reinke isn�t convincing at all. It�s more of an opinion than a
testimony. A testimony denied by Jerry Romney, the supposed man
in the ape suit.

One important point, there is no mention of Gimlin (sp ?).
Patterson wasn�t alone when he filmed the creature. And although
Gimlin didn�t get any benefits from the film (because of dispute
of legal rights), he never said it was a hoax.

The Loch Ness Monster
That submarine hoax was already known. The 1934 pictures was
known as hoax since 1994. Nothing new here... They don�t say
that the pictures taken by Robert Rines are fake... they say
that skeptics think they are.

The Meier Photographs and Films
Everybody in ufology already knew they are hoaxes. The only
interesting segment is the interview with his ex-wife.

The Alien Autopsy They show us a piece of film I've never seen
before, which they claim is also from Santilli. One of the
actors in that film tells his story about that film and then
speculates about the other, well known, autopsy footage. Not
convincing. Sorry!


For the record

I don�t believe the 'Alien Autopsy' is real, for other reasons.
I�m convinced that Meier is a fraud. I think that there may be
something big in the Loch Ness, probably not a monster but
maybe a large fish. I still think that the Patterson film
hasn�t been discredited yet.


Jacques Poulet
Phone: (514) 913-0274

http://www.chucara.com/

Fortean Files CDROM   http://www.proxyma.net/home/manon

CHUCARA
Box 61
La Prairie, Qc
Canada  J5R 3Y1






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             Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:20:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 00:00:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.


Regarding...

>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratclif@inlink.com>
>Subject: Re: Fox Special Exposes Alien Autopsy, Meier, etc.
>Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:39:30 -0600

John wrote:

>I'm a little bit leery of Kiviat's 'expose' of the alien autopsy
>film, given early indications are that the special doesn't expose the
>alien autopsy film that Fox broadcast, and used such great hyperbole
>to promote in the first place.

[...]

>The only frustration I have in this affair are people who blow the
>whole thing off lightly, without the mystery ever being resolved.
>And, I am frustrated to hear that Kiviat fails to address any of
>these issues in his production.  I want to see the set, I want to see
>the dummy in construction, I want to hear from all of those involved
>in the hoax, the why, where's, when's.  I want the smoking gun, the
>entire footage, raw and unedited.  I want to hear how every detail
>was constructed for the set to be so authentic to the time period,
>and how the clock on the wall was kept perfectly synchronized.


John,

That was cheeky, wasn't it. ;)


>Was this some sort of film assembled by the intelligence community?
>Who produced, funded it?  Hoax for profit?  Fine, why, who, where,
>what for?

As you appreciate, there are some questions which any claimed,
final solution to this extraordinary story must address. For
example:

- why did Ray Santilli take the footage to recognised experts in
diverse, related fields -

In July, 1995, he confirmed on the Compuserve forum:

"Apart from a variety of medical experts worldwide including
three pathologists in Italy, one in Paris, one in Japan and
three in the UK. The film has been examined by three special
effects companies, one in Italy, one in Japan and by the Jim
Henson staff here in the U.K.

In addition to the above, the film was screened last week for
the curator of mammals at the Natural History Museum Mr Richard
Saban, also for the senior surgeons at University College
Hospital London.

Although not all think the creature is an ET they don't know
what it is however all think it is flesh and blood".


I contacted Richard Sabin (correct spelling), who it turned out
worked at the Mammal Group, Department of Zoology, The Natural
History Museum.

He acknowledged having been shown a preview of the footage and
said, "we will release a statement of our views, although before
this can be done it must be officially approved by the Keeper of
Zoology of The Natural History Museum. This will take a number
of days, and will be in written (hard copy) form, although we
will send a copy out to you...".

It was no surprise, despite my further requests, that a
statement was never, to my knowledge, released. If they weren't
about to declare the 'body' as a hoax, what could they say that
wouldn't be open to interpretation as controversial?

This is effectively what happened to Dr Milroy, the senior
lecturer in forensic pathology at the University of Sheffield,
who was asked to view the footage and provided a statement of
his opinions. I understand that the resulting publicity over Dr
Milroy's 'intrigued' assessment was not appreciated by the
University's hierarchy.

The point is of course, if Ray Santilli knew the footage was an
abject fake, he deserves a nomination for 'brass neck' of the
decade.

He could have been 'testing the water', but could only have done
so _after_ the film had been financed and produced, which asks
the question why anyone would take such a hazardous business
risk.


- why the level of detail went above and beyond -

There were so many nuances in the film, it's difficult to
remember them all.

There was the way the fingers on the 'alien's' right hand curled
up and seemed to be jointed when accidentally brushed against -
or was that 'accident' also scripted?

In the brief 'debris' footage, there were 'sweat stains' visible
on the underarms of the person displaying the 'debris' (although
this may not have been intended to convey effects of the 'desert
heat' and might have been due to studio lights).

Most impressive... possibly from the 'debris' footage filmed in
a 'tent', when one of the tent walls can be seen slightly moving
as if being blown by the wind. It's only noticeable if the
footage is examined in minute detail.

The SFX artists also didn't use the standard 'blood knife'
technique, where a small tube with fake blood is hidden on the
unseen side of the knife. As Theresa Carlson pointed out, in one
sequence where the 'skin' is cut and 'fluid' then appears, both
sides of the knife can be seen and there's no tube.


Even the brief 'Roswell' debris footage was so well executed. I
did see, maybe a couple of months back, Kevin Randle criticise
this as being inaccurate. I didn't get time to respond, however,
if Kevin (or anyone) cares to republish, I believe it can be
shown that all of the criticisms are invalid.

If I recall, Kevin objected to the 'I-beams' being depicted as
'heavy', when they should have been lightweight. In fact, the
'I-beams' in the 'debris' footage are clearly insinuated to be
light and do contain representations of those infamous 'embossed
hieroglyphics' as recalled (solely?) by Dr Marcel.

As the Roswell 'I-beam with hieroglyphics' story can be
factually argued as a myth, the 'debris' footage was perhaps an
obvious clue to the entire 'alien autopsy/Roswell' show being
bogus.


- why the 'scalp reflection' sequence was so impressive -

This is where the 'skin' on the head is peeled back and
underlying is a uniform 'wetness'. Discussions, including
opinions from SFX artist Trey Stokes, on the technicalities of
how the overall effect shown could be achieved, served only to
illustrate reasons why the suggested techniques were not
compatible with the details seen in the footage.

How it had in fact been achieved, was never explained.


- how any SFX hoax could stun the very best in the industry -

The comments from Stan Winston and some of his team, as shown in
the FOX 'Alien Autopsy: Fact or Fiction?' broadcast, were
remarkable.

Even allowing that they may have been misled in believing the
film stock had been verified as dating from 1947, they did offer
an opinion on the film as recent SFX work:

"You see how uniform the blood is on the inside surface of the
skin and the amount of drippage down the side where it's
uniformly wet on the inside? ...I mean, we never were able to do
that".

"...if in fact this isn't real, I would be real proud of
creating an image like that myself, today".

"This is creepy... incredible, if it's a built prop".

"The point is, if we did this, I'd be pretty proud of it".

"This really felt like a real body that was being cut open".

"Nothing about this thing feels funny".

"If you came to me, and said that you created this illusion,
you'd be working here like that".


For any SFX hoax, there can be no higher accolade than this.
Period.

Stan, responsible for the legendary SFX in the 'Jurassic Park'
films, 'Terminator II', 'Aliens' etc. was later reported to have
declared his belief the footage was 'absolutely' a hoax.

Why did he think so - was there critical evidence, was he
informed by the creators, perhaps slightly embarrassed to see
Stan and colleagues being publicly 'fooled', even to some
extent?

And how does he explain his initial opinions.

I did write to Stan and ask him, however, he never replied (I
assumed he might have been too busy!).


- how is the production cost equated with a hoax? -

Stan Winston also stated, "Yea, and _I_ don't know how they did
this. If it's been done today to look like it was done then, it
would be a many, many, multiple thousands of dollars".

To which his colleague responded, "Stan, even if it was made to
look, period, I mean, just to do this properly would be
really...", Stan adding, "It would be very expensive...".

Interviewed for the UK Channel 4's production, 'Incident at
Roswell', British SFX artist Bob Keen stated, "It's a good
special effect, it's not going to be a cheap item. It's going to
be a few hundred thousand dollars probably".

Well, maybe not, but if the claim is that Ray and Co. financed
the production of the 'alien autopsy', it was an almost
unprecedented, risky capital venture. How could they be
confident the lengthy footage wouldn't be considered laughable
as an 'alien autopsy' and conversely would fool experienced
pathologists, medical personnel and maybe even impress some
within the SFX community?

With no guarantee of any financial rewards and an 'alien
autopsy' being uncharted media territory, how does this further
equate with the fact there are two 'alien autopsies', there
being another comparative, film which has been seen, yet never
released?

Was the total production cost of the hoax almost half a million
dollars?

Is this what's being claimed by the SFX industry?


- why the 'recreations' by SFX artists were, no offense, pitiful
by comparison -

Although I haven't seen all of them, from those I have and
reports of the other 'recreations', these illustrate why SFX
work claimed to be a genuine 'alien autopsy' would have been
ridiculed at the first hurdle.


- why produce a 'Roswell' based 'alien', which didn't resemble
any of the 'traditional' descriptions? -

Going 'against the grain' was either the result of inadequate
basic research, or an arbitrary decision to create something
distinctly 'humanoid', yet 'alien', or perhaps simply the end
product!

The 'believability' of the absurdly fat, bow-legged 'alien'
featured in the film was paradoxically the key to its success.


- where the film box labels came from -

Although only photocopies were ever publicly released, so far as
I'm aware, these clearly showed the labels came from Kodak
Super-XX film containers.

The labels were imprinted with that enigmatic stamp which
contained the emblem of the National Military Establishment
(NME), subsequently Department of Defense (DoD), yet there was
the name of an organisation which encircled the emblem and even
though too blurred to identify, it didn't seem to match the
spacing for either the NME or DoD.

What was that all about?


- how many people were involved in the hoax -

There were four people, plus the 'cameraman' in the 'autopsy'
footage. As a SFX, the film required to be planned by
experienced SFX artists, the 'body' had to be first cast and
then convincingly made believable, all of the 'autopsy' work had
to be planned, prepared and was then primarily carried out on
screen by someone with at least a surgical knowledge, as evident
from later medical opinions.

Plus the initial props research and hire, then there's the
subsequent video editing and other requirements I'm sure aren't
included here.

Overall, that's some production!

Also, there was the 'cameraman' who later appeared in the
'interview' shown on Fuji TV in Japan and his 'son', whom Bob
Kiviat met in a New York hotel.


- who were they and what was the true purpose behind the hoax? -

This central question is one which any expose must surely
answer.


- why did Ray Santilli give Theresa Carlson a hi-res Beta copy
of the footage, knowing that she intended to analyse it frame by
frame? -

And so on...


We can presumably look forward to some, or all of these
questions, being addressed and resolved in the FOX special. ;)



James.





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              Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:29:09 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 06:54:34 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer


>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 06:47:48 -0500 (EST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

<snip>

>Back when I was trying to find a publisher for a serious book
>on the AA film I was talking to one publisher on the phone.

>This company publishes new age and occult books, so I thought
>they would jump on it. The woman was VERY enthusiastic at
>first, but the more I talked about it the less enthusiastic
>she got.

>Finally she said, "It sounds like this could be real!" I said
>yes, it could be the real thing. "Oh, we wouldn't have anything
>to do with anything like that," was her response.


<snip>

Bob,

Unfortunately, too many of us have had similar experiences.
Here's my most recent, from about a week ago. The note is from a
fairly prominent agent, who was trying to place The UFO Mystery
(UFOs 1947-1997: Fifty Years of Flying Saucers) with an American
publisher. Names have been deleted to protect the guilty!


"I just spoke with [deleted] at [major publisher who had been
considering the book] and they are passing on UFO Mysteries AND
you know why?  They are starting a line of UFO books, but they
want books that are more "pro" and not sceptical at all.  I said
to him, so they can just be made up, huh?  You don't have to
deal with truth here at [deleted]? He said, the public wants to
read the weird, wild stuff - and I want to give it to them.  It
really made me angry.  But then editors don't have to do much to
make me angry."


So if any of you out there have any juicy, sensational, made-up
UFO stories to sell, e-mail me and I'll put you in touch with a
publisher just right for you. The cautious or objective need not
apply!

But now you know why Corso wrote the book he did. Sensationalism





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                         FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: John W. Ratcliff <jratclif@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:54:21 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 06:59:28 -0500
Subject: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


A quick reaction to the FOX Hoax Special which was broadcast
tonight.  In light of the fact that I posted a somewhat critical
message just last week, prior to the broadcast of the special, I
would like to pass a comment or two now that it has been seen by
all.

First of all, how terribly amusing that a 'debunking' special
used the same breathless tone and scary music as all of the FOX
specials which attempt to convince us of the paranormal.  The
irony is thick.

I will leave others to comment on Billy Meir (!?), Bigfoot, etc.
The simple fact is that people make hoaxes, for good or ill, and
a special which reveals them can be as entertaining as learning
the magic trick of a stage magician.  All fine and well.

However, I would like to focus on the Alien Autopsy film
coverage.  I'm glad the young man came forward and decided to
break the news about his involvement in the tent footage.  Nice
to see a mystery resolved.  I tend to believe that he is the
character in the film, that his orange slice eyeballs, and other
explanations are basically true.  Afterall, the tent footage
(shown for the first time!!??) on FOX was silly looking and
rather embarrassing for the young man.

The irony of the situation becomes extraordinarily thick when an
admitted hoaxer cries crocodile tears over the fact that the
'believer' community was so callously treated in this affair.
Ahem....where was the confessor over the last few years if his
conscience pained him so?

Sadly, Kiviat forgot the simple axiom that there are two sides
to every story.  Where was Santilli's rebuttal in all of this?
I find it pleasing that a congenial, handsome, and smiling
Santilli was the only bit of footage they had of our hoaxing
friend.  No matter how dastardly a hoaxer Santilli might be, in
his heart of hearts he sure is a likable chap.  I'll give him
that.

Funny that Kiviat needed "NASA enhancements" of the footage when
the guy who staged the film was right there in the first place.
Santilli's response is that he was the one who was hoaxed.
Convenient explanation, for sure.  But the fact remains that
Santilli never promoted the tent footage (because even if he did
in fact commission it, he realized that it was complete junk and
never should see the light of day.)  If Santilli did in fact
commission the tent footage, why not a bit more documentation of
that fact?

The distinction in quality between the tent footage and the
actual alien gutting shown on FOX was rather marked.  Clearly if
Santilli did in fact commission the footage, he had the good
sense to use some real professionals for the more elaborate
production.  Heck, he was so involved in the affair he even
commissioned yet another alien autopsy film filled with
gynecological gore and detail and kept it only for friend
Volker's private personal pornographic collection.

While I'm pleased to hear the story advance a touch after all
this time, it's a _long_ way from being resolved just yet.

I guess we have to wait for 'Greatest Hoaxes Revealed 2'





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                        Re: 'World's Greatest Hoaxes'

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 00:06:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 07:12:30 -0500
Subject: Re: 'World's Greatest Hoaxes'


>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:22:32 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jacques Poulet <jpoulet@chucara.com>
>Subject: 'World's Greatest Hoaxes'

<snip>

>For the record

>I don't believe the 'Alien Autopsy' is real, for other reasons.
>I'm convinced that Meier is a fraud. I think that there may be
>something big in the Loch Ness, probably not a monster but
>maybe a large fish. I still think that the Patterson film
>hasn't been discredited yet.


Hi Jacques...

One out of three isn't that bad...<G>
That's 33 1/3%....<G>

Happy New Year to you and your family.

REgards, Mike

ICQ#:7508455.
(502) 683-3026






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                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 01:16:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 07:17:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Fox TV Special -- The 'Last' Word
>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 08:47:08 -0500

>After all the discussion we've had here. I think that David
>Bianculli, TV critic of the New York Daily News, deserves the
>last word. Here's what he wrote in this morning's paper:

>"One of the hoaxes that is likely to remain suppressed in this
>one-hour special is that the Fox executives continue to call
>themselves programmers, when they really are carnival barkers in
>disguise. The network's 'Alien Autopsy' special a few years back
>was the bottom of the barrel -- but by revealing that special to
>be a hoax, and building another special around that revelation,
>is like lifting the bottom of the barrel and becoming one of the
>worms that wriggle in the mud."

>Greg Sandow

Hi Greg, hi All,

I sat through that hour of drek. Kal Korff did himself a
tremendous disservice by appearing on that thing. It was
interesting to hear his (not very well or convincingly stated)
reasons for his beliefs. It was an amateurish production. I've
seen better crafted (more interesting) stuff on Public Access.

Question:

Can someone like Santilli be prosecuted for perpetrating an
intentional hoax on the international public? Ditto for Kiviat.
I was incensed last year when UPN aired that bogus abduction
video. They had touted it for a month as the "real thing" when
all concerned knew full well that it was bogus. Are there any
laws which cover such intentional lying and fraud? There must
be! I don't know what the story is with Billy Maier but Kal is
always too 'feverish' (salivating) about him for me to trust
-his- objectivity. But if Maier is perpetrating a hoax on his
'followers' then he should be prosecuted too. It just seems to
me that if someone makes millions from lying to the public then
they should (at the least) be forced to forfeit the ill gotten
gains.

And, was that a 'computer altered' version of the Mexican UFO
clip (from Aug 97) that they ran towards the end of the program?
In the original, the UFO disappears behind the building. In the
_obviously doctored_ clip they showed last night, (the UFO in
last nights show was more detailed but of the same shape and
style as the one in the Mexican video) continues on after it
passes behind the building! It looked so similar to the Mexican
video that it caught my attention immediately. It was as if they
created a similar UFO in a computer, shot the background
sequence in an area that very closely resembles the original, on
purpose. The other computer generated UFO clips that they
claimed were submitted anonymously as the 'real thing' are clips
that I have never seen or heard of before. Were they created by
program staff just to bolster their contention that all video
(and the viewers own eyes) aren't worthy of -any- trust?

And last but not least, the 'moral' of the whole program (which
was clearly stated by the narrator) was; "don't believe your
eyes." What an uplifting message! Don't trust your own senses.
If we listen to the _pseudo-scientists_ and the _biased
skeptics_ long enough they'll not only have you mistrusting the
world but yourself as well. If listened to, it'll create a
schizm where folks will be unable to trust themselves, their own
faculties or each other.

Divide (apparently _internally_ as well as externally) and
conquer. The New World Order!

Enough said. The show stunk up the airwaves for a whole hour.

Peace,

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________





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                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Kal Korff <KalKorff@KalKorff.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:03:48 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 07:44:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:14:30 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>I just saw the revelations of K Squared...  Well, truth or not,
>the man sure did his level best to provide the worst possible
>reasons for "some" of his expose (accent grave).

<snip>

Dear Jim,

Aside from whatever personal opinions you have of me, which are
irrelevant but you decide to take the low road nonetheless,
don't you think it is important that:

1) The part of the model Meier used to fake numerous pictures
and at least one motion picture were exposed and shown for the
first time _ever_ on national TV?

2) That people now know (mass public) about Meier being a cult?

3) That we know the name of at least two of the people involved
in the alien autopsy hoax,?? etc., etc.

I would submit, sir, that these are important contributions to
the database of knowledge and well overdue course corrections of
the data.

Your comment about Kalliope Meier are a wonderful example of
someone missing the point: _yes_ she _is_ a _good_witness_ and a
_credible_ one. The proof is in the evidence she came forth with
and other pieces recently admitted to being fakes by Meier
himself. Her claims have been verified. Write her yourself, shut
up, or forever continue to be an uninformed armchair "critic"
who is just plain wrong, has conducted no firsthand
investigation himself, hasn't been to Switzerland, hasn't spoken
to Kalliope Meier as I have, etc.

I assume you are aware of this material, if not, your remarks
are understandable. If so, they are inexcusable.

The bottom line is this: Numerous facts were put together in a
one hour TV special that helps correct the course of data. This
is always important and it is always something responsible
researchers must continue to do whenever possible.

The fact that _some_ of this info may have not been "news" to
some of you is irrelevant and is a purely ego-driven "concern"
that, in my opinion, has no place in credible ufology.

The facts are important, and they are the ultimate "stars" of
any show...as long as they check out. These and many others did.

Obviously, there's way more data known and collected than the
show could cover, but you seem to be struggling with what it did
present, so there's no point in delving any further until you've
grasped what was broadcast and file it away into a more accurate
perspective.


Respectfully,

Kal Korff





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              -=[For The Record]=- Military Ability to Detect &

From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 07:59:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 07:59:57 -0500
Subject: -=[For The Record]=- Military Ability to Detect &




From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 01:10:05 EST
To: CAUSupdates@caus.org
Subject: [CAUS updates] - Our Military's Ability to Detect and Identify UFOs


Dear CAUS Members:

On this Tuesday, CAUS again shares with you some very
interesting comments by CAUS' favorite NASA contractor, Robert
A.M. Stephens:

Gersten: Robert...can you tell us something about our military's
ability to detect and identify UFOs?

Stephens: When something untoward enters into the tracking field
of NORAD/Fence, it then begins a series of tracking logarithms
to track speed, location, altitude, departure angle, mass, heat,
and inherent velocity. From there it runs a test for itself to
confirm that whatever it is is not something we have in space.
From there a management program kicks in called, 'Intruder
Assessment.' If a series of democratic protocols weighs out
then the next step is to start a serious of visual confirmations
with our own air assets. Stealth 117A and or SR-71 are
dispatched to attempt intercept. From there the 'Fence'
protocols go through a series of 'what is' formats until the
intruding element is either confirmed to be something from us or
an unknown. Unknowns are called a 'Gray.'

Also when it appears conventional ground based air assets have
failed to acquire craft for confirmation due to vehicle
exhibiting phasing or some other type of eluding of recon
aircraft, they (NORAD) move any one of three Kehole deep-look
satellites into position in high Earth Orbit to watch the bogey.

Gersten: Am I understanding you correctly that 8 individual
objects were detected by Norad/Fence over Phoenix on March 13,
1997?

Stephens: Yes.

Gersten: If so, for what period of time did Norad/Fence track
these objects?

Stephens: Until they left Earth's space after slowly drifting
at 20-60 knots SSE into Mexico

Gersten: What was the time period?

Stephens: First registered anomaly: 2030 MST Last registered
anomaly: 0140 MST

Gersten: Was there a description of the objects?

Stephens: Yes. 'V' shaped and triangular.

Gersten: Did any one of three Kehole deep-look satellites in
high Earth Orbit reveal any further information about these
objects?

Stephens: Yes, by those assets as Silver Veil and Keyhole and
other.

Gersten: There were reports from AF informants that these
objects were also in the area for several days prior to the
13th. Can this be confirmed?

Stephens: No. They first appeared for registration at 2030 MST,
3-17-1997

Gersten: Do you have any knowledge about the MSTI-3 imaging
satellite? The story is that the MSTI-3 was "disabled" on March
13, 1997, (date of the Phoenix lights) by an incoming alien
craft. It's last set of photos would be quite interesting.
Would he have access to those last pictures taken by MSTI-3 orr
knowledge of them?

Stephens: No. The MSTI-3 satellite as referenced misfired
becasue of a failed APU sensor. Later fixed. The association
of that and the Phoenix incident were unrelated since both
events were so distance in relative being of one another. Too,
MSTI was fixed by the night of the 17th, at least marginally.

Gersten: Besides NORAD/Fence, is there any other Agency that
detects these intruders when in our airspace?

Stephens: No.

Gersten: Is there ever photographs taken of these intruders?

Stephens: No. Attempts are made, on rare occasions. Results
are fleeting or negative at best.

Gersten: Is there a defensive or offensive strategy by our
military in regard to these intruders?

Stephens: No. I will say this now since I divulged this on the
Toronto Radio show [Strange Days... Indeed'] Sunday night. The
actions of the government (way above NASA), act, respond,
interact, manage information, disseminate information, handle
intelligence, seek intel, divulge data, delude intelligence,
avert attention, in anything and everything regarding the
intruder enigma under the exact formulae and protocol as the U.
S. Government did during World War 2. I am not suggesting
anything here. But from a warfare background, which I hail from,
the comparison needs to be considered that we, 'The Government'
at higher levels, are on some type of war-footing.

Too, our only true compelling evidence related to this, from a
purely civilian standpoint, is the nomenclature used in the
intruder interface with our humanity. That being:

1. In not one encounter interview in any form is the word
'Invited' used.

2. The only word, and exclusively used throughout, is 'abducted.

3. Thus, in any other understood venue, this is the most
sinister violation of our humanity. In any other form, if an
opposing nation were to do exactly what the intruder enigma is
doing to us, I leave to your rational thought what our response
as a collective nation would be.

This brings us back to the question "is there a 'defense' to
this, then?" No. And this might explain why the perceived
secrecy is the way it is.

Gersten: Is there any explanation for the dramatic increase to
100-200 a day over the past few years?

Stephens: No.

Gersten: What is the Office of Intruder Assessment?

Stephens: It is a top secret enclave as part of the USAF, formed
during WW2, to deal with any from of stealth into our air space
from any source. The USAF-OIA was formed 4-9-1942.

Gersten: What is the source of your information that 'those
within government that are abducted and 'debriefed' after the
event, mostly in the military....?'

Stephens: Data from the results of garnered information from OIA
by units of the Navy SEALs during strategic assessment studies
at the Inshore Undersea Warfare Institute, 1975, 1977, 1978,
Norfolk.

Once again CAUS thanks Robert A. M. Stephens for his
cooperation.

Hope everyone has an intuitive Tuesday and of CAUS...watch the
skies!

Peter A. Gersten
Director


Be sure to visit the CAUS web site at http://caus.org
To join this mailing list, go to http://caus.org/feedback.htm





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                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:29:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:46:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 17:26:29 -0500
>Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:52:39 -0500
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:59:37 -0500
>>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

Previously, Greg asked this of Gary:

>>>How long did Larsen serve in CIC, and precisely what did he do?

As usual, Gary avoided answering any question:

>>Dear Greg,

>>If you need any information on Sherm Larsen please contact my
>>good friend on this List, Jerome Clark. Jerry has stated
>>publicly that he knows everything there is to know about him.
>>In fact I am finding it hard to believe that he has not posted
>>this information to this List just to prove that he does know
>>everything.

Greg's response:

>I take this to mean -- until proven otherwise -- that you don't
>know the answer to my very simple, very uncomplicated question.

Greg,

Ted Viens had asked earlier, "What's it all about, Gary?"

I could answer that by claiming that Gary was a Nazi youth and
harbors inner rage at anyone with ideas that he feels are a
threat to him. I could go on to level claims that he violated
national security because he sold secrets to the Soviets and was
responsible for the deaths of various US operatives as a result.
Or maybe he's also a fraudlent cult leader trying to recruit new
members from the list. Maybe, Gary is actually an alien,
himself, and is trying to confuse the issues regarding ETs and
UFOs.

The point is that I have as much "proof" to back up those claims
as he does regarding Larsen or Hynek. None. But, using Gary's
logic, I really don't need proof. After all, we have no proof
that Gary DIDN'T do any of these things. And since such
described activity would, by its very nature, be clandestine,
then it only follows that such secretive work would not be
widely known about unless I make everyone aware of it. Never
mind that I, myself, would not really know about it if it were
secret; I am not required to reveal my sources. Gary isn't, so
why should I?

For the record, I do not believe that Gary did any of the
horrible things described above (though he MIGHT be an alien).
More to the point, I don't think Gary does much of anything,
including research or answering questions that would require
research to support his conclusions.

By now it should be clear to all readers that Gary hasn't got a
clue what he's talking about; only that he likes to see his
words in print. Maybe that explains why he's writing a book.
Printed or not, at least he can read his manuscript over and
over and over again. Beyond that, he obviously takes great
delight in seeing anyone talk about him, even if what they say
is not very flattering. How silly.

I, for one, will not play this game anymore, Gary. I urge others
not to give him the satisfaction of a response until he starts
answering direct questions with real answers and is man enough
to admit when he is flat out guessing and, more importantly,
when he is wrong.

You've wasted our time long enough, Gary. It's time to put up or
shut up.

Roger Evans





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                      Re: Korff Spams The News Groups!

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:21:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:55:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Korff Spams The News Groups!


>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 16:49:47 -0800
>From: Kal Korff <KalKorff@KalKorff.com>
>To: Updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Korff Spams The News Groups!

>>Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 12:31:09 -0600
>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Korff spams the News Groups!

>Dear List:

>Alfred Lehmberg posted the following emails below, claiming I
>had "spammed" various email groups. Funny, but these groups
>don't seem to think so -- with over 70 replies so far and
>counting!! I guess one person's "spam" is another person's
>simple posting trying to set the record straight.

True -- your B Index wouldn't trigger a cancellation bot, but a
check of DejaNews at 6:40 eastern this morning says 39 TOTAL
replies, two of which are mine. "And counting!"  Your last
sentence, lathered as it was with that earnest researcher
guilelessness you charmlessly employ -- "simple postings"
valiently "trying" to straight[en] that crooked "record," had me
rolling on the floor. But you're right about ONE thing -- one
man's cheese is another man's rotten milk, still making _your_
approach, at _best_ -- cheezy.

>Also, with all due respect to Alf, I will let the newsgroup
>monitors make this determination, since their opinions on this
>issue are the only ones that count -- perhaps to the chagrin of
>Mr. Lehmberg.

Alf? And that's _horror_ and chagrin -- Mr. Korff, with a
liberal dose of festering diappointment that you are probably,
largely, successful in your campaign to muddy the line between
fact an fiction.

>In another post, I will respond to Dr. Bond Johnson.

>Alfred Lehmberg says:

>>>Kal Korff sullenly spewed the following in Usenet over
>>>Christmas:

<Snipped uncontested bulk of my own expression>

>>Your tiresome tomes of turgid TRVTH!   <=D6>  ! I know you're
>>spamming the ng's to drum up an audience for your latest
>>televised retreat to the medieval . . . I think a more
>>enlightened use of their time is to look for a re-run of Mutual
>>of Omaha's "Wild Kingdom" and watch THAT. We're waiting for you
>>in Toronto, Kal. Please grace us with a visit. < . . .maybe a
>>"Barney" episode>

>>Lehmberg@snowhill.com

>To which I, Kal Korff respond:

You make that sound a little like "I, Caligula" -- _Who_,
between us, is _overly_ impressed with themselves.

>Alfred: 1) You have not seen the Fox special. So, I find your
>'judging' it via psychic means ahead of time to be most absurd,
>revealing, and speaks volumes about yourself.

And I _didn't_ see it either. I watched the SKY during that
period. What I have read in subsequent review was predictable,
and unsurprising. I'm sure Lance Henrikkson <sp>is revolted that
he was associated with it.

>2) WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOUR POINTS HERE? Please RE-STATE THEM so I
>can understand them!

They're the same "points" Kal. A short check of the record at
UFO UpDates or DejaNews clearly shows expressions of my concerns
regarding your canted agenda, that I clearly feel your activity
drags us backward to increasing ignorance, and that others
should not be moved or swayed by you for these and other
reasons. That you don't answer pointed questions or acknowledge
the positions, aims, and goals of your publishers, pundits, and
producers -- for example.

>Sounds to me like you're just going off on a personal, cheap
>tirade here with obvious deeply emotional overtones.

. . . But I never started to paint you up as a whacko-coo-coo,
Mr. Korff -- so what was the purpose of your preceding comment?
Sowing a bitter seed that I've lost touch, or need more lithium,
Mr. Korff <?>-- a tactic of the cheap and smarmy!

>So again,
>Al, WHAT IS/ARE your points here?

The interested reader may _check_the_record for observations,
commentary, and rock and roll poetry <g> about the whole affair
-- Kal.

>3) As is entirely predictable, you don't REFUTE a single thing I
>have said!! Instead, you revert to name calling and other
>tactics....the very same things you accuse me and others of
>doing for the wrong reasons. I guess when YOU do it, it is "OK".

That's right. When I do it it's OK -- I'm not motivated by
prevaricating sociopathy for profit.  And I refute EVERYTHING
you say. Moreover "name calling, and other tactics" is a
ridiculous stretch regarding my expression about your position.

>I guess some people really are legends in their own mind.

Not in the way you'd think <g>.

>Next, in another posting, Lehmberg says thus about me:

><snip>

>>On reflection, I think it is the faux think-cloak of guileless
>>respectability that you pull around your self for cover,
>>camouflage, or concealment that makes me see red when you float
>>your unconvincing assertions.

>><sigh>

<snipped the bulk of my own uncontested expression>

>1) Alfred, again, WHAT is/are your points here?

Annnnnnd . . . I've made my response abundantly clear.

>2) Could you please RE-STATE it/them in terms that are much more
>easy to be understood??

This is a bland, unconvincing, and obvious dodge, Mr. Korff. I
submit that you would find it eternally convenient to _always_
find my questions difficult to understand, and my expressions
difficult to respond to.

>In order to write a REAL response, I need to understand your points
>first!!

That may be a problem for you, Kal, whatever my response might
be, as I don't think you're interested in making "real"
responses to anything, or you would spend your time, energy and
money investigating less obvious ufological forgeries, and red
herrings. Have a good look at STS-48, for instance!

I'm not fooled by this false and posturing assumption of an
ethical or logical high ground -- I don't think many on this
list are at any rate.

>Respectfully yours,

Heh!

>Kal Korff Author, "Spaceships of the Pleiades: The Billy Meier
>Story" and "The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You to
>Know" -- much to the chagrin (I guess) of Alfred Lehmberg.

Yeah -- yer right Kal! I think your turgid tomes of untroubled
truth were all profoundly canted, short sighted, and misleading.
In short -- propaganda!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 28 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.





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                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Ron Decker <decker@wt.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:32:41 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:04:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:09:30 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sightings - Czarnik

>>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 06:50:09 -0600
>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Sightings - Czarnik

>>I have this STS-48 footage, sir, with its introduction by Dr.
>>Haines and a seemingly reasonable explanation by Dr. Jack
>>Kasher. His analysis _destroys_  the NASA supplied "Martin
>>Kress" explanation which you trot out,for us here.

>Hi Alfred...I also have this footage. I have to agree with you
>on your assessment.

>You are also correct about the NASA feeds reverting from live
>feeds. Right after this incident, NASA, inserted a ten second
>delay in the signal, so they could inspect the video prior to
>feeding it to the Networks...

Mike,

For what it's worth (I know the following is hearsay), a friend
and former co-worker told me of a conversation he had with his
next-door neighbor a couple of years ago.  He lives in the
NASA/Clear Lake area south of Houston.

My friend told me that he and the next-door neighbor were
getting aquainted one day and were talking about their work (my
friend's an accountant). The next-door neighbor claimed he
worked for NASA and his job was to baby-sit a certain button.
The neighbor's job was to watch live feeds from NASA missions
and screen video that 'wasn't supposed to be seen by the
public'. When something popped up that wasn't to go out for
public consumption, he would push the button removing the feed
from public view. Unfortunately he wouldn't reveal what the
criteria were for censuring.

As I said, the story is hearsay so take it for what it's worth.

Best regards,
Ron.






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                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: "Roger R. Prokic" <rprokic@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 06:42:30 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:08:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:03:48 -0800
>From: Kal Korff <KalKorff@KalKorff.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:14:30 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>Aside from whatever personal opinions you have of me, which are
>irrelevant but you decide to take the low road nonetheless,
>don't you think it is important that:

>1) The part of the model Meier used to fake numerous pictures
>and at least one motion picture were exposed and shown for the
>first time _ever_ on national TV?

>2) That people now know (mass public) about Meier being a cult?

I applaud you in your efforts to expose Meier for what he is - a
hoaxer! It's been a long time waiting for someone to expose the
obvious. Good job!

>3) That we know the name of at least two of the people involved
>in the alien autopsy hoax,?? etc., etc.

I think the jury is still out on the alien autopsy. I can
believe the tent footage is a hoax. However, we cannot conclude
that the alien autopsy is also a hoax. It is a different film,
and the cameraman or whomever shot it has not come forward on
details of how he came in possession of it (if it's a real gov't
production with real Alien Sue), or if it's a Hollywood hoax
production. I know you are more intelligent than to tie those
different films together at this point!

Happy Holidays!


Roger R. Prokic
Telecom Design Lead
Mars Surveyor Program
Lockheed Martin Astronautics
Denver, Colorado USA





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                         FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:37:43 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:10:04 -0500
Subject: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


My reaction: I went into the bathroom and threw up. Seriously.

What a load of crap. What a wasted hour of TV time.

Bob





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                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:38:33 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:12:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:03:48 -0800
>From: Kal Korff <KalKorff@KalKorff.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>Dear Jim,

>Aside from whatever personal opinions you have of me, which are
>irrelevant but you decide to take the low road nonetheless,
>don't you think it is important that:

>1) The part of the model Meier used to fake numerous pictures
>and at least one motion picture were exposed and shown for the
>first time _ever_ on national TV?


Kal, you did us a service on this. But almost no one in the UFO
community has taken Meier seriously for some time. I do
appreciate that you have reinforced our knowledge that Meier is
a hoaxter.

>2) That people now know (mass public) about Meier being a cult?

Agreed.

>3) That we know the name of at least two of the people involved
>in the alien autopsy hoax,?? etc., etc.


Not so. We know the names of two people involved in the tent
footage hoax. The tent footage has nothing to do with the AA
film, and you and Kiviat know it. This part of the program was a
serious disservice to the UFO community and the public.

Bob





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                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:10:05 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:20:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 01:16:36 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>Hi Greg, hi All,

>I sat through that hour of drek. Kal Korff did himself a
>tremendous disservice by appearing on that thing. It was
>interesting to hear his (not very well or convincingly stated)
>reasons for his beliefs. It was an amateurish production. I've
>seen better crafted (more interesting) stuff on Public Access.

>Question:

>Can someone like Santilli be prosecuted for perpetrating an
>intentional hoax on the international public? Ditto for Kiviat.
>I was incensed last year when UPN aired that bogus abduction
>video. They had touted it for a month as the "real thing" when
>all concerned knew full well that it was bogus. Are there any
>laws which cover such intentional lying and fraud? There must
>be! I don't know what the story is with Billy Maier but Kal is
>always too 'feverish' (salivating) about him for me to trust
>-his- objectivity. But if Maier is perpetrating a hoax on his
>'followers' then he should be prosecuted too. It just seems to
>me that if someone makes millions from lying to the public then
>they should (at the least) be forced to forfeit the ill gotten
>gains.

>Enough said. The show stunk up the airwaves for a whole hour.


Hi John.

I doubt that Santilli can be prosecuted for being a part of a
deliberate hoax. It is up to us, the 'buyers' of this type of
information, to be on our toes much as we would when investing
thousands of dollars in a used automobile...

We know that many used car dealers are passing off bad cars as
good ones, but does it stop us from buying them, just becasue
they 'look good' or the 'price is right'? The same applies in
this incident...'let the buyer beware'.

As far as Kal Korff goes...He has been a staunch attacker of the
Billy Meier case since he was 16 years old. Kal is a compadre'
of old William (Bill) Moore's. If you remember the 1989 MUFON
CONVENTION, speech Moore made in Las Vegas, Nevada, then you
know of what I speak.

From 1980 onward, Moore attacked the "Meier" photos, mainly,
because Wendelle Stevens would not share them and the
information with him about the case, at the 1980 UFO Convention
in San Francisco. When he demanded the information Stevens had
gathered, and Stevens told him to go get it the same way he had;
namely go visit Billy Meier in Switzerland, Moore became
furious. He immediately went to Jim and Coral Lorenzen and
denounced the Meier case as an out and out fraud.

From that time onward, he used every weapon in his arsenal to
discredit Meier. One of those weapons was a 16 year old boy by
the name of Kal Korff, whom Moore shaped into the early form of
"attack dog." Moore felt that if he attacked Meier so viscously,
he might be sued for slander, however, a 16 year old minor,
would not suffer such a fate...thus, Kal Korff's first book on
the debunking of the Meier Case. Thus the reason that each time
Korff speaks of Billy Meier, you see the venom oozing from his
fangs... He is a trained debunker. William (Bill) Moore has more
or less disappeared back into the woodwork of UFOlogy, but Kal
Korff has appeared under the same guise as Moore did back in the
1980's.

Moore, in his Las Vegas speech, claimed that he had an
opportunity to "get inside" the "'black' establishment" and
learn the truth about UFOs and their history. He claims he
therefore took that opportunity and even though it meant
"sacrificing" an individual or two, it was worth it to him...
Thus the systematic destruction of Bennowitz, who claimed to
have film of UFOs coming and going from the Albequerque, NM area
as well as having had communications with the aliens who piloted
these vehicles.

Anyone who knows the hell Bennowitz was put through, because of
Moore, can begin to understand the reasons for Mr. Kal Korff's
vehement attacks on the Meier Case....

Mr. Kal Korff can deny this all he wishes, but there are those
who can confirm this historical trek on debunkery...

REgards, Mike

ICQ#:7508455.
(502) 683-6811





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               Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:11:53 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:09:31 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread


>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:29:09 -0600 (CST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

>>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 06:47:48 -0500 (EST)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or The Thread Killer

><snip>

>>Back when I was trying to find a publisher for a serious book
>>on the AA film I was talking to one publisher on the phone.

>>This company publishes new age and occult books, so I thought
>>they would jump on it. The woman was VERY enthusiastic at
>>first, but the more I talked about it the less enthusiastic
>>she got.

>>Finally she said, "It sounds like this could be real!" I said
>>yes, it could be the real thing. "Oh, we wouldn't have anything
>>to do with anything like that," was her response.

><snip>

>Bob,

<snip>

>"I just spoke with [deleted] at [major publisher who had been
>considering the book] and they are passing on UFO Mysteries AND
>you know why?  They are starting a line of UFO books, but they
>want books that are more "pro" and not sceptical at all.  I said
>to him, so they can just be made up, huh?  You don't have to
>deal with truth here at [deleted]? He said, the public wants to
>read the weird, wild stuff - and I want to give it to them.  It
>really made me angry.  But then editors don't have to do much to
>make me angry."

<snip>


Dear Dennis, Friends,

Your editor is a jerk without courage.  But then again, most
jerks feel that they have their finger on the pulse of the ROW
(Rest Of the World) when all it is they really feel is the
throbbing of their organs engorging with blood at the smell of
money in mass quantities, eh?  (Eh! Eh! Eh! for EBK)

But I perceive there is just a little bit more to his side of
the story, Dennis.  The public at large appears tired of the
culpably ignorant and particularly tired of those who seem to
take great pleasure in treating Americans to "their" version of
truth.  And it doesn't matter what the "truth" is either.  It
may be the truth about the "Gulf War Syndrome," or the truth
about what the Government really knows about UFOs (or worse,
does _not_ know) or the truth about what really goes on in the
halls of vapor, er, Congress... the subject matter doesn't
matter any more.  And neither does the side taken!

Citizens of the world have had a steady diet of bull for too
many years and in many quarters and venues.  The perception is
now that there "may" be other truth out there and they want to
know about it. They want to know all the sides so that they may
make up their own minds.  It gives a feeling of intellectual
satisfaction to see two sides, even the extreme sides, and be
able to discern a measure of truth from each... such that
whenever "the real truth" appears, it will be so obvious, so
wonderful, that it made having to wade thru the bullshit like
unto a tiptoe thru the tulips.

You give too little credit to the masses.  Knowledge is power.
Even knowledge which is the wrong knowledge is empowering.
That's what education should be, in my opinion at least, Dennis.
Show both sides then show the truth.  Truth then becomes
terribly obvious.

So give the masses what they want.  Eventually they will become
curious followed by other emotions ultimately leading to seeking
truth in all it's glory.  Give 'em both sides of the dumps....
the ones on pap and the ones on mushroom.  Then stand back and
wait for all the questions... all the right questions.

Then, when some ass delivers pap scheiss or mushroom scheiss
or worse, Freshly Made, they are gonna laugh at all of us.  God
willing and the comet don't hit.

Jim Mortellaro





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                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:45:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:23:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:03:48 -0800
>From: Kal Korff <KalKorff@KalKorff.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:14:30 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>I just saw the revelations of K Squared... Well, truth or not,
>>the man sure did his level best to provide the worst possible
>>reasons for "some" of his expose (accent grave).

><snip>
>
>Dear Jim,
>
>Aside from whatever personal opinions you have of me, which are
>irrelevant but you decide to take the low road nonetheless,
>don't you think it is important that:

>1) The part of the model Meier used to fake numerous pictures
>and at least one motion picture were exposed and shown for the
>first time _ever_ on national TV?

Look Kal...Wendelle Stevens did an expose on the Billy Meier
case back in 1980....He "told" the public about "the models"
which "Billy Meier" carved at one point, to "make photos" of to
compair with the photos of alleged actual BEAM SHIPS. There has
never been an attempt to "keep secret" the making and
photographing of models in this case. Yet, you jump on this as
though it were some kind of slimy dark secret that you have
exposed to save the "public," from deception.

All an interested person has to do to uncover this material is
read the history of Billy Meier.

While I do not support Meier 100%, I do support his right to
claim what ever he wishes about it. Just as you have the same
right. But, your material is stale...You sound like a broken
record. Sheeeeeeessssshhhhhhh!!!!! Give it a rest for Petes
sake...

>2) That people now know (mass public) about Meier being a cult?

Yeah? Is that why you added that tasteless piece about the Solar
Temple and insinuated that Meier's group would sooner or later
follow in the steps of the Solar Temple? You are disgusting Kal
Korff. _You_ take it on yourself to be the 'Watch Dog' of
Humanity. You and you alone will decide what the Public shall
"believe" or reject! You sir are nothing but a "bottom
crawler..." What is a "Cult," Kal?  Would you care to define it
in _your_ terms? You make these statments, bending the words and
terms to fit your view of "normality." You don't have a clue to
normality, Mr. Korff. Your sense of right and wrong are as
twisted as a "grape vine walking stick." You know nothing of
"freedon of choice." You set yourself up as the "guardian" of
Humanity...to save them from "self destruction." Well, Sir, I
for one don't need your protection! I am old enough and Well
Educated in this field and others, that I can make a responsible
decision on my own, and I would not hesitate to say that many
others in the world in which we live today, are quite capable of
the same thing! We hear it said daily, that Religion distorts a
person's ability to think rationally. Well sir, what you spout
is no different than the most ingrained religious doctrine to be
found any where in the world. Let me be clear here, I have
nothing but respect for Religion for I know that men clearly
need direction, but direction and control are two totally
different things. You sir do not offer direction! In fact, your
inference here was nothing short of " A WITCH HUNT!" You are a
disgusting person, Mr. Korff...You and those who support your
ideology!

>3) That we know the name of at least two of the people involved
>in the alien autopsy hoax,?? etc., etc.

Oh? I wouldn't be surprised that if we could go back far enough,
we would find that you were possibly involved in this hoax, from
the very beginnings. You had time, as a young ward of Mr.
Moore's to plan such an elaborate Hoax. You had the contacts,
thanks to Mr. Moore. You may very well have been the catalist
behind this whole thing from the very beginning. Should we look
to Santilli as the perpetrator of the AA Hoax? Or is it
conceivable that You Sir, could have planned it yourself, so
many years ago and brought it forth to fruition? Just another
way to satisfy your insatiable desire to control the "unthinking
minds of men!"

>I would submit, sir, that these are important contributions to
>the database of knowledge and well overdue course corrections of
>the data.

You sir have been attempting to "correct the data," from the
first time Mr. Moore set you about your "life long goal."

>Your comment about Kalliope Meier are a wonderful example of
>someone missing the point: _yes_ she _is_ a _good_witness_ and a
>_credible_ one. The proof is in the evidence she came forth with
>and other pieces recently admitted to being fakes by Meier
>himself. Her claims have been verified. Write her yourself, shut
>up, or forever continue to be an uninformed armchair "critic"
>who is just plain wrong, has conducted no firsthand
>investigation himself, hasn't been to Switzerland, hasn't spoken
>to Kalliope Meier as I have, etc.

Look! Kalliope Meier, has had a problem with all the attention
Billy Meier has received from the very early days. People coming
into her house; complete strangers. Unanounced, just droping by
without a moments notice...she has been shown to have been just
a bit "unstable" from those early days. She took a shoe box of
photographs and dumped them in the incinerator, and attempted to
destroy them by burning. Yet all of them did not burn, and some
were clearly showen to be "models," but what of the rest? Were
they also modelsa??? Or, Sir, were they pictures of actual Beam
Ships, as Meier claimed? This witness, whom you tout so highly
is the same Kalliope who attempted suicide because of the stress
created by so many people being in her house all the time and
interrupting her families lives, is it not? If memory serves me
correctly, Kalliope was the "real" loose cannon in the Meier
family. It seems the Meier children grew up in this environment
with little or no ill effects from the attention given to their
family in regards to the UFO contacts and photographs.

>I assume you are aware of this material, if not, your remarks
>are understandable. If so, they are inexcusable.

Do I have the room to post all of the investigative research
done on this case by other researchers??? You sir, only pick and
choose your information...if you would encourage the mass mind
to do a logical step by step review of the Meier case, instead
of the pick and choose method you use, the public would soon
rise up and slap you across your preverbial face!

>The bottom line is this: Numerous facts were put together in a
>one hour TV special that helps correct the course of data. This
>is always important and it is always something responsible
>researchers must continue to do whenever possible.

Facts are like opinions...they can be slanted to fit a the
program...

I will not say that some of the material presented was not
worthwhile, in fact it was, regardless of the slant which was
cast on it. If nothing else, it makes the "believers" review
their point of presence, in this phenomena, and it also awakens
the desire to know more about these cases covered in the
program. In essence, you may have eventually done more good by
presenting this program than you did harm. Truth is
essential...but Truth, not _my_ Truth, or Your Truth, or Bob
Kiviat's Truth.....Each individual must look at him/herself and
determine what truth is. As a skilled artist can convey his/her
whole life concept into a beautiful painting, for the whole of
humanity to enjoy and share with him/her, so can that same
artist "twist" the brush, so to speak and render that same
painting an ugly thing to behold. Now which have you done, Mr.
Korff? Which painting will the public preceive here??? Time will
tell.

>The fact that _some_ of this info may have not been "news" to
>some of you is irrelevant and is a purely ego-driven "concern"
>that, in my opinion, has no place in credible ufology.

I saw nothing new, here, except for the "Dinasour" hoax...sheesh...
That thing was so stiff, I am amazed that anyone could think it
in anyway resembled a living creature. Those creatrues were said
to have been extreemly adgile for their size...they could run
very fast and the "arm" were not "immobile" while walking or running,
as depicted in the program you presented to us....
And really! That last attempt to present a video of a living
creature, which turned out to be a created hoax for the special.
What a joke. No such creature would ever lie still as a boat full
of people, or even one person approached it. The slightest hint
of someone or something approaching and it would have been gone.
I had to really laugh at that one....<G>

I might say, that I have been around this phenomena...Ufology,
and the Paranormal for more years than you have been alive. All
of the things you presented, I have delt with in the past. It is
nothing new to me....In fact, I find virtually any info passed
on via the electronic media surprising today. Sience Fiction
writers of the past have already prepared the reading public for
almost any scerenio which may present itself today. In fact,
based on past projections of what the Year 2000 society would be
like, I am damned disappointed... :-(

>The facts are important, and they are the ultimate "stars" of
>any show...as long as they check out. These and many others did.

Yeah, so you say. It is easy to take informatin, snip and clip
and glue it together to present "facts" in a verifiable way.
Even small children can do that in school projects...With
computers, it is much easier today than ever.

What is possible to "hoax" in todays computer tech, society,
would not have been possible back in the "40's," "50's,",
"60's," and "70's." Why don't you tell that fact to your viewers
and readers? I was alive during those years. I know what
technology was available to the public...I used much of it as I
grew up. I read the magazines of the time which presented the
public with present and future technological trends... Where
were you during those times? It is very easy for one born in
later years to go back and attempt to "Interpret" the conditions
of those days. Yet, those of us who lived through it, know the
difference...we were there!

>Obviously, there's way more data known and collected than the
>show could cover, but you seem to be struggling with what it did
>present, so there's no point in delving any further until you've
>grasped what was broadcast and file it away into a more accurate
>perspective.

I for one am not struggling...I found it mildly intertaining. I
do not have a problem with "denouncing" a hoax...I have a
problem with a person trying to impose his/her own personal
belief system on everyone else, through the electronic media. We
can look at ths state of human morals today and see what
imposing one's opinions on the mass mind can do...such programs
as Melrose Place and 90210, and all of these programs which
pretty much suggest that it is OK to do anything one wishes
regardless of the impact on society as a whole. Oh, by the
way...I do not watch these programs...I saw enough of them from
their previews to know that they are not my bag of tea....

I need something more stimulating...something, fictious or
factual, which will challenge my mind...stretch the boundaries
of my understanding an make me reach for the future, with both
hands, my head and my heart. What you and Network TV has offered
me is mostly a roll in the Bill Clinton hay field. No thanks. I
will reach for the future in hopes that we will realize there
what we hope for today...even if that future is only "one second
away."

>Respectfully,

>Kal Korff

How can you do that with a straight face? You cut the guy to
pieces and then have the gaul to say: "Respectuflly?" You have
no heart at all do you Kal Korff?

I have had my say...now it is your time. I don't know if I will
reply to it or not, but at least, go ahead and take your best
shot. I invite it...I look forward to it. But don't be surprised
if I don't respond. I have told you that in the past. I will not
engage in long drawn out threads which go on endlessly...it just
isn't my way...

REgards, Mike

P.S. Please excuse any typos or misspelled words. In my "off
the top of the head" reply, I may have missed some of each...I
know you will understand... Oh, why not do a Fox special on
"typos and misspelled words, the undeniable proof that
ufologists are dumb." <grin> ... ha, ha, ha....



ICQ#:7508455.
502) 683-6811





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   Dec > Dec 29

                      Re: Korff Spams The News Groups!

From: Kal Korff <KalKorff@KalKorff.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:46:06 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:29:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Korff Spams The News Groups!


>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:21:00 -0600
>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff Spams The News Groups!

Dear Alfred,

Obviously, you do not understand me, so I will try to convey
this to you for the last and final time.

There are no "emotional high ground" games going on here. If you
wish to play any, then do so without me. What is going on,
however, is a sincere quest for the truth.

You, sir, in your emails to and about me, including your literal
poetry about me over the past year that you have published on
the web, (please feel free to make up a posting of ALL your
links discussing me that you have ever written!) seem unable of
divesting your emotional feelings from the intellectual
arguments and case logic that you purportedly advocate. Since I
do not seem able to distinguish between the two when reading
your writings, then I feel that further correspondence is
pointless.

Therefore, I am discontinuing it, until if and when the time
comes that you are able to email me or post your point(s) minus
the severe emotionalism and ad hominems you presently include.
And oh yes, sir, also omitting data and charges for which you
have no evidence, would also be desirable.

When you do this, I will be extremely happy to read an email
from you and finally be able to answer to your issues and
points, because I will at last have understood them! Feel free
to make this as wide a public issue as you like. I welcome close
scutiny of your postings and written behavior.

I will not waste my time going through your past writings, as
you curiously recommended, because having been the subject of
some of them in often less than flattering terms, why should I
re-read charges and claims that are patently false?

I don't think you would waste your time on them either.

Looking forward to your writing and publishing, for everyone to
see, your complete list of writings about me, and also, those
final emails that are minus the unprofesional verbiage.

Sincerely and Respectfully yours,

Kal K. Korff

Author, "The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You to Know"
"Spaceships of the Pleiades: The Billy Meier Story"








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                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:44:25 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:22:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:03:48 -0800
>From: Kal Korff <KalKorff@KalKorff.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:14:30 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>I just saw the revelations of K Squared... Well, truth or not,
>>the man sure did his level best to provide the worst possible
>>reasons for "some" of his expose (accent grave).

><snip>

>Dear Jim,

>Aside from whatever personal opinions you have of me, which are
>irrelevant but you decide to take the low road nonetheless,
>don't you think it is important that:

I think nothing of you personally Kal. I don't know you. What I
think about is what you have to say and the manner in which you
present your opines. I take whatever road chosen by Kal Korff,
which in this case and in my opinion, is indeed, the low one.

>1) The part of the model Meier used to fake numerous pictures
>and at least one motion picture were exposed and shown for the
>first time _ever_ on national TV?

>2) That people now know (mass public) about Meier being a cult?

>3) That we know the name of at least two of the people involved
>in the alien autopsy hoax,?? etc., etc.

>I would submit, sir, that these are important contributions to
>the database of knowledge and well overdue course corrections of
>the data.
>
>Your comment about Kalliope Meier are a wonderful example of
>someone missing the point: _yes_ she _is_ a _good_witness_ and a
>_credible_ one. The proof is in the evidence she came forth with
>and other pieces recently admitted to being fakes by Meier
>himself. Her claims have been verified. Write her yourself, shut
>up, or forever continue to be an uninformed armchair "critic"
>who is just plain wrong, has conducted no firsthand
>investigation himself, hasn't been to Switzerland, hasn't spoken
>to Kalliope Meier as I have, etc.

I am a witness in a terrible God awful trial, Kal. I am,
unfortunately for me, the _only_ credible witness in this mess. I
have recently been grilled for five hours by the opposition and
stand to have to go thru another ten at least. I arrived home
ill it was so bad. My wife had to peel my clothes off me because
they were soaked thru. I told the truth. And yet, my truth was
twisted and thrown back at me in ways I could never imagine
except in a nightmare. It was the worst time of my life. My
truth vs. theirs. I prevailed, but it took so much out of me....
well,

What the hell's the point of the above?

I was of the opinion that "Truth is Truth!" If you say truth,
then no one can prove otherwise. See? I am naive. Truth is
truth. But the manner in which it is presented makes all the
difference. And I do _not_ deny your truth. I _do_ deny some of
the way you went for it. In some cases, it was so blatantly
obvious to me that you had so little (in your opinions at Fox)
that you had to "color" your truth, if indeed that is what it
was.... truth.

Take your pics of the Mexican UFO video. Kal, baby.... you ran
that bullshit up the flagpole and guess who saluted? No one.....
that is, no one who saw the original undoctored version. That,
sir, was a low road... How low was it? Very low, Kal.

And as for Billy's wife. Pulease! I doubt the veracity of any
woman who claims "foul" on her Ex. Just very little credibility
there, even if she spoke "truth!"

I was impressed only by the Autopsy revelations. But I swear to
you Kal, I am not even sure about that Cockney turn coat. Why?
God damn it Kal, because I've heard too much bull from too
many quarters. There are very few people out there who are (in
my view) credible.... and these I've already met. I haven't met
you.

>I assume you are aware of this material, if not, your remarks
>are understandable. If so, they are inexcusable.

I really don't agree with that. The show presented little of
value for me. And the reason is simple. I try to describe it in
another post. We, that is the Rest of the World, the
uniniciated, the unwashed masses, so to speak, have heard so
much bullshit that (thank God) we now seek truth in places
_other than_ those we have received "truth" all these years.

It's a little like Scrooge in the Christmas Carol... "Can you
forgive a poor old man for not having the eyes to see with, the
ears to hear with ...... all these years?"

Yes Mr. Scrooge. But the time for independent thinking and the
beginning of the masses to _Challenge The Challenged As
Well As The Challengers_ has arrived.

Hic! Excuse me, please.

>The bottom line is this: Numerous facts were put together in a
>one hour TV special that helps correct the course of data. This
>is always important and it is always something responsible
>researchers must continue to do whenever possible.

>The fact that _some_ of this info may have not been "news" to
>some of you is irrelevant and is a purely ego-driven "concern"
>that, in my opinion, has no place in credible ufology.

>The facts are important, and they are the ultimate "stars" of
>any show...as long as they check out. These and many others did.

>Obviously, there's way more data known and collected than the
>show could cover, but you seem to be struggling with what it did
>present, so there's no point in delving any further until you've
>grasped what was broadcast and file it away into a more accurate
>perspective.

>Respectfully,

>Kal Korff

Respectfully! Kal... listen to me, pal... I am skeptical of
anyone who presents a side, to me, on TV or in a book, a side
which is biased... doesn't matter which side you represent, pro
or con. I'll make up my own mind based on my own "truthsense."

I recall a few months back, someone suggested that in order for
the list members to be able to take as credible, that which some
person posts here... that the CV of the postee would be posted.

I remarked at the time, that the only thing that was important
is what the postee had to say and how he (or she) said it. You
can tell a great deal by how a person presents facts. You can
discern just how much that person believes himself. You can
discern just how much that person has to gain or lose by his
revelations, etc.

Whatever good may have been truth in the show, it was
overshadowed by the lies of too many others. Additive, the lies
presented on that very same show.

Respectfully? Always. I try.

Jim Mortellaro





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 29

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: John Ratcliff <johnr@simutronics.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:59:37 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:30:08 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:37:43 -0500 (EST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

Bob and list.

You gotta admit that some portions of the tent footage
explanation do ring true.  As you know there were early
statements made that "Harry Truman can be seen clearly in the
footage.", and then later the explanation was that "we had been
told that Truman was on the film but it didn't turn out." This
meshes with the explanation that Ray commissioned the tent
footage, Truman actor and all, and then when it turned out to be
crap had to backpeddle on his previous promises.  The fact that
there are striking similarities between the alien autopsy
footage and the movie autopsy is compelling, since the actual
professionals involved in the faking of the autopsy footage
could easily have been influenced artistically by this other
production.

As far as the 'first autopsy' goes, Ray's reactions could well
be consistent with the fact that the production turned out to be
fatally flawed and he knew he could never release it.

I still like Ray and all, but if the facts reveal he
commissioned all of this footage than so be it.  A lot of cage
rattling can be done now on the bars of the admitted hoaxers of
the tent footage.  Much in the timeline surrounding the footage
and the way it was handled does match the idea that Ray, through
some other backers, did in fact orchestrate this whole
production.

Even so, the level of detail in the full autopsy footage remains
a marvel and revealing those who were responsible is still a
compelling mystery to solve.

John





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   Dec > Dec 29

                   Re: Dr. G's AWSCHNOTS Service Launched!

From: Jsmortell@aol.com
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:17:44 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:34:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Dr. G's AWSCHNOTS Service Launched!


>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 16:14:23 -0500 (EST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Dr. G's AWSCHNOTS Service Launched!

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 13:24:45 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Dr. G's AWSCHNOTS Service Launched!

>>After reading a CAUS news article on a woman who believed she
>>had been abducted and implanted by space aliens, because
>>whenever she stuck her nose down on the grocery store scanner,
>>the bill came out to $700.... Dr. Jaime Gesundt, sole proprietor
>>and founder of the now famous Canal Street UFOlogical Research
>>Society and Discount House of Freshly Made Wines, has an offer
>>he wishes extend to anyone interested.....

><snip>

>"Whew, sure is warm in here!
>>Hey, somebody get some cold Freshly Made, eh?

>Hey there,

>Sounds like a product which could be endorsed by the Nearsight
>Institute.

>Wanna apply for our official endorsement?

>Bob Shell, Director
>Nearsight Institute


Hey Bob... and List Members...

Damn! I hate to be serious in the same breath or thread as Dr.
Gesundt! But.... well, the Canal Street UFOlogical Research
Society and Discount House of Freshly Made Wine has many faults.
Many faults. But the one fault we avoid like the plague is being
"nearsighted."

We try to be the opposite. Hey, it's the right way to think, for
a marketing person running a crappy act like Freshly Made. Gotta
look ahead. So, in an effort to look ahead, I will consider
looking closer in...

I accept your offer of an endorsement by the Nearsight
Institute, of which you are Director.... on the basis of the
fact that sometimes it makes a lotta sense to look only as far
as your nose.... because you can see a lot farther that way....
eh?

Jim Mortellaro, Director of the CSUFORSADHFW, and all the
wonderful stuff we make, including the new "GRIPPLE!" Try it,
you'll love it.





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   Dec > Dec 29

                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:21:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:38:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 06:42:30 -0800 (PST)
>From: "Roger R. Prokic" <rprokic@earthlink.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:03:48 -0800
>>From: Kal Korff <KalKorff@KalKorff.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:14:30 EST
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>Aside from whatever personal opinions you have of me, which are
>>irrelevant but you decide to take the low road nonetheless,
>>don't you think it is important that:

>>1) The part of the model Meier used to fake numerous pictures
>>and at least one motion picture were exposed and shown for the
>>first time _ever_ on national TV?

>>2) That people now know (mass public) about Meier being a cult?

>I applaud you in your efforts to expose Meier for what he is - a
>hoaxer! It's been a long time waiting for someone to expose the
>obvious. Good job!

Why would you applaud him on one aspect of his program and then
turn around and disagree with him on another?

By what standards do you judge the Meier case as a hoax?

How much investigatin have you done into it? Have you talked to
any of the players? Meier? He is sometimes available, I am told
on his own website for Email and sometimes live type chats. Have
you talked to Jim Dilatossa? <sp>? Wendelle Stevens? Did you
talk to Marcele Vogel when he was alive and ask him directly
about the "metal samples" he examined for Meire of Pleadiean
material? Have you read Wendelle Steven's "Preliminary
Investigation" of the Meier Case? What about the "Suplimentary
Investigation?" Both works go into indepth information from "on
sight" investigation with Meier over a period of five years.

Have you view the Genesis 11, Trilogy, of video tapes on the
interviews with Meier, Lee and Brit Elders, Wendelle Stevens,
the Japaneese film team which came and analyzed the Meier film
and traveled to the locations where the pictures and films were
made?

Have you done any of this??? If so, I am amazed that you can simply
throw off the many amazing facts, which Mr. Kal Korff ignores, so
easily...

What type of scientist are you Roger? Do you put this kind of
effort into the Mars Program???

I cannot say completely that the Meier case is authentic...for
one reason....I was not there. I have not been to
Switzerland...I only got a far as France...the group I was
traveling with, frowned on me leaving the group to go to
Switzerland...

I did not see the things Meier claims to have seen. I have delt
with some unscrupulous Americans, who claimed to have seen Meier
at his home. I have received a respectful reply from the Meier
Group, inviting me to stop by, preferably on a Sunday afternoon,
when Billy was not so occupied, if I was ever in the region. I
would really be interested in _your_ reasoning in the Meier
case. Why are you so ardently opposed to the possibility of it
being or having been at one time Authentic?

>>3) That we know the name of at least two of the people involved
>>in the alien autopsy hoax,?? etc., etc.


>I think the jury is still out on the alien autopsy. I can
>believe the tent footage is a hoax. However, we cannot conclude
>that the alien autopsy is also a hoax. It is a different film,
>and the cameraman or whomever shot it has not come forward on
>details of how he came in possession of it (if it's a real gov't
>production with real Alien Sue), or if it's a Hollywood hoax
>production. I know you are more intelligent than to tie those
>different films together at this point!

I may be wrong, but it appeared that the "tent segment" of the
Alien Autopsy was deliberately staged for the special...The
person who claimed it was he in the film, was not suffieciently
aged from the film to make that much of a difference.

Did you notice how long the alien was in the tent segment?
Aren't those examination tables normally a minimum of five feet
long? The alien's feet hung off the end... This alien was not
"barrel" chested as in the previous show. It was very thin...in
comparison...

Isn't it funny how people will go to such lengths to convince
others that all of this phenoment is a total and deliberate
hoax?

Have you ever considered that Mr. Kal Korff, could have
engineered the Alien Autopsy hoax ten years ago in an effort to
arrive at last night's Fox Special, for his own reasons? It is
not anymore illogical than anything else associated with this
phenomena and the attempt to overtly dismiss it from the public
consciousness....

After All, Mr. Korff is the "Protege" of the infamous William
(Bill) Moore....<g>

REgards, Mike

ICQ#:7508455.
(502) 683-6811






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                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:52:06 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:43:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:38:33 -0500 (EST)
>Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:12:33 -0500
>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:03:48 -0800
>>From: Kal Korff <KalKorff@KalKorff.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

Previously, Kal offered this as a positive result of the Fox
special:

>>3) That we know the name of at least two of the people involved
>>in the alien autopsy hoax,?? etc., etc.

Bob's response:

>Not so. We know the names of two people involved in the tent
>footage hoax. The tent footage has nothing to do with the AA
>film, and you and Kiviat know it. This part of the program was a
>serious disservice to the UFO community and the public.

Bob,

We've discussed, at length, the technical reasons why I think
the AA footage is fake. We won't rehash that. My question to you
is this:

Other than Santilli's word, how do you know that he had nothing
to do with faking the AA footage? I understand his explanation,
but it certainly seems odd that he would never let you talk
directly with the cameraman that supposedly shot the AA footage.
And, by your own admission, the directions relayed to you from
the cameraman, via Santilli, failed to lead you to the location
he claimed existed.

Your statement above:

"The tent footage has nothing to do with the AA film, and you
and Kiviat know it."

can't possibly be based on anything other than intuition, since
there is no direct evidence and it's just Santilli's implausible
statements versus Kal's. I know you maintain a supposedly
"nuetral" position on the AA footage; i.e. you say there isn't
enough evidence to prove it fake or real. But, you have to
admit, Santilli's actions regarding the source of the AA footage
is just as suspect as Kal's, maybe even more so. I'm not
defending Kal, but on balance, it appears that you are defending
Santilli based on nothing more than his word that he hasn't
snookered you or the rest of us. Isn't such a position counter
to you "nuetral" position regarding the AA footage?

You've made it very clear to me and this List that you've
expended a great deal of resources and time covering the AA
footage. I truly mean no disrespect, but is it possible that
such an investment might bias your opinion slightly?
Understandably, no one would like to admit that they've wasted
so much time and effort on something bogus.

But, with all that's transpired, doesn't it seem more likely
than not that the AA footage is fake? After all, Santilli has
got nothing to lose and everything to gain by coming clean with
all the info if it's real. On the other hand, being secretive
hasn't helped him one bit and his sudden claim of being out of
the loop regarding the tent footage is a bit too convenient for
my taste.

Has any of this changed your position?

Roger Evans





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               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:09:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:45:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto

>From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 01:10:05 EST
>To: CAUSupdates@caus.org
>Subject: [CAUS updates] - Our Military's Ability to Detect and Identify UFOs


>On this Tuesday, CAUS again shares with you some very
>interesting comments by CAUS' favorite NASA contractor, Robert
>A.M. Stephens:

>Gersten: Robert...can you tell us something about our military's
>ability to detect and identify UFOs?

>Stephens: When something untoward enters into the tracking field
>of NORAD/Fence, it then begins a series of tracking logarithms
>to track speed, location, altitude, departure angle, mass, heat,
>and inherent velocity. From there it runs a test for itself to
>confirm that whatever it is is not something we have in space.
>>From there a management program kicks in called, 'Intruder
>Assessment.' If a series of democratic protocols weighs out
>then the next step is to start a serious of visual confirmations
>with our own air assets. Stealth 117A and or SR-71 are
>dispatched to attempt intercept. From there the 'Fence'
>protocols go through a series of 'what is' formats until the
>intruding element is either confirmed to be something from us or
>an unknown. Unknowns are called a 'Gray.'

<snip>

Although the F117 has a fighter designator, it is really an
Attack aircraft and deserves to be called the A117.  Being
subsonic and lacking maneuverability, it is a poor choice for an
interceptor.  *And* the SR-71 has been re-retired. Besides it
takes hours to mount an SR-71 mission.  Another poor choice for
an interceptor as it has NO maneuverability.  AFAIK, neither
craft offers an air defense capability.  Besides, the SR-71
wasn't very stealthy with its titanium body -- leaked fuel so
badly that its first stop was a gas station once airborne.  :-)

IMO, this clouds the entire document.






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                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:10:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:48:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:10:05 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 01:16:36 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>I doubt that Santilli can be prosecuted for being a part of a
>deliberate hoax. It is up to us, the 'buyers' of this type of
>information, to be on our toes much as we would when investing
>thousands of dollars in a used automobile...

<snip>

Hi Mike, hi All,

I'm a relative newcomer to 'Ufology'. (1993) Before that I had
not read any books, attended any lectures or conventions, or
even had occasion to use the moniker 'UFO' much at all. I still
do not attend conventions or lectures unless I'm there as a
'speaker' with Budd. So, thank you for the background history.
I'm sure that many others on the list were unaware of Kals'
'roots' so to speak.

It really explains a lot about Kal. I was always wondering where
all the ~venom~ was coming from if this guy was just an
objective researcher who had simply investigated the Meier case
and was reporting his findings. It was a mystery to me where the
~vehemence~ of his attacks was coming from. If what you say is
so, (and I have absolutely no reason to doubt your recounting of
history) then Kal Korff is no longer an enigma to me. In fact
you have 'humanized' him for me.

As for Moore. I don't know the man or his work so I cannot/will
not comment on that. _But_ - what he did with Kal (a 16 year old
at the time) was tantamount to psychological abuse and if true,
then Moore is a genuine low-life. A self-serving (at any cost)
creep who is not beyond using kids to advance his own interests.
Made my skin crawl to read your account of it.

Kal, you have my sympathy. Apparently you were robbed of some
important developmental years by someone whose personal agenda
precluded any genuine concern for you as a person or respect for
you to choose your own path in life. I can only hope that in
spite of it all, you had an oportunity to enjoy your teen-age in
spite of being sucked into the center of a shitstorm at such a
tender age. How you survived it is a wonder to me. I came to
this mess (ufology) as an experienced adult and -all- of my
coping skills have been tested to the max. With all that life
experience on my side it has still been one of the most
difficult things I have ever done/engaged in. I can't begin to
imagine what it was like for you as an impressionable kid to
have to deal with that and more. (Moore)

Thanx for the info Mike.

It, "splains a lot about Lucy!" <g>

Peace,

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________






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                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 20:05:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:53:19 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:37:43 -0500 (EST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

>My reaction: I went into the bathroom and threw up. Seriously.

>What a load of crap. What a wasted hour of TV time.

>Bob


Always good to see well argued criticism.


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine, a division of the P.L.A. Driftwood International Cartel
www.magonia.demon.co.uk





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               Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:53:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:54:54 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:11:53 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread

<snip>

>You give too little credit to the masses.  Knowledge is power.
>Even knowledge which is the wrong knowledge is empowering.
>That's what education should be, in my opinion at least, Dennis.
>Show both sides then show the truth.  Truth then becomes
>terribly obvious.

>So give the masses what they want.  Eventually they will become
>curious followed by other emotions ultimately leading to seeking
>truth in all it's glory.  Give 'em both sides of the dumps....
>the ones on pap and the ones on mushroom.  Then stand back and
>wait for all the questions... all the right questions.

Jim

I would like to hope that you're correct about the "masses",
but my experience thus far indicates otherwise.  I've seen
little demand from the general public for "truth", and far too
many are simply trying to get through each day, so I don't know
when they'll have an opportunity to reflect on reality (so to
speak).

As long as the subject of alien visitation is entertaining,
television will incorporate that theme into its productions (as
will major Hollywood studios).  This will make it far more
difficult to convince the general public of the validity of this
line of research and provide lots of material for skeptics and
critics to throw into mix.

As far as Congress is concerned, I think you'll find that it
reflects the constituency that it represents.  The atmosphere
that prevailed during the recent hearings is pretty much the
standard operating procedure around the "Hill", and when you're
spending your time trying to get re-elected, there's little time
left to pursue any "truths".

Of course, there is an assumption here that some global "truth"
is there to be found, and most psychoanalysts I know believe
that to a great degree we all live within our own "reality".
But, that's getting too philosophical
for a Tuesday. . . . <g>

Steve






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                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 17:11:08 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:49:37 -0500
Subject: Re:  Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 14:52:06 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>You've made it very clear to me and this List that you've
>expended a great deal of resources and time covering the AA
>footage. I truly mean no disrespect, but is it possible that
>such an investment might bias your opinion slightly?
>Understandably, no one would like to admit that they've wasted
>so much time and effort on something bogus.


Certainly that is possible, but I don't think so. I think the
jury is still out on the AA film, and the fact that nothing
that Kiviat or anyone else has thrown has stuck to it influences
me more in its favor.

>But, with all that's transpired, doesn't it seem more likely
>than not that the AA footage is fake? After all, Santilli has
>got nothing to lose and everything to gain by coming clean with
>all the info if it's real. On the other hand, being secretive
>hasn't helped him one bit and his sudden claim of being out of
>the loop regarding the tent footage is a bit too convenient for
>my taste.


He didn't claim this suddenly. He was dismissive of the tent
footage early into things when the cameraman was shown it and
said he didn't shoot it. This was before Kiviat's FIRST program,
and the reason Ray didn't let Kiviat use the tent footage in
that first program.

I did my own analysis of the tent footage a long time ago and
concluded it had been clumsily doctored to disguise the faces of
the actors.

>Has any of this changed your position?


No.


Bob






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                  BBC Program On British Cattle Mutilations

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 00:49:56 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:18:24 -0500
Subject: BBC Program On British Cattle Mutilations


Forwarded from the UASR list.

Stig

*******

Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:14:22 +0000
From: Richard Courtier <richard.courtier@btinternet.com>
To: starfriends <starfriends@esosoft.com>
Subject: [UASR]> Cattle Mutilations



Hi All

The BBC is currently filming a a seven episode TV series
"Millennium TV-The Big End" the first programme being shown on
Sunday 27 December on UK national TV. It is expected that the
programme on cattle mutilations will be shown on the third
Sunday, 10 Jan.

David Cayton a researcher into this phenomena writing in UFO
Magazine

http://www.ufomag.co.uk

stated that he was able to elicit the help of a well known
pathologist (name not disclosed) and a two year investigation
followed. Advertising in British farmers journals and magazines
he was able to build up quite a dossier on the mutilations. He
was accompanied on some of his investigations by a BBC film crew
from which the programme has been compiled.

Some time after an advertisement appeared a farming magazine he
received a call form the Ministry of Agriculture, Farms and
Fisheries (MAFF) requesting details of the pathologist. The
second question he was asked was "Is this to do with aliens?"
quickly followed by "not that I know anything about that". The
MAFF official berated him for obtaining specimens for unofficial
private experiments. The caller went on to say that it was
unlawful to take specimens in this way and when pushed as to why
was given the reply "Because of B.S.E and all animals should be
incinerated within 48 hours". The caller did not answer the
question posed by Cayton that B.S.E was only in cattle. A farmer
later confirmed there was no notice about B.S.E. in sheep or
lambs or that dead animals should be incinerated.

Cayton established that the call came from Animal Health
Veterinary Investigations Centre, Barton Hall, Broughton,
Lancashire, UK. He visited the site and found a notice at the
entrance stating it was a facility for Animal Health. No mention
of an investigation unit, but on closer examination further down
the private road leading to the facility he found  sign marked
"Vetinery Investigation - Specimens Only".

I await the programme with interest.

Richard



Posted by : Richard Courtier <richard.courtier@btinternet.com>
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                           The 1998 Blivet Awards

From: Bob Thrift - Institute for UFO Research <iufor@frii.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 17:36:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:24:30 -0500
Subject: The 1998 Blivet Awards


1998 has been a notable year in the field of UFO research --
notable chiefly for the fact that little of real consequence has
been accomplished by anyone. "Anyone" includes this writer, who,
despite diligent and well-meaning efforts, has done as little to
further true advances in ufological knowledge as anyone else.

That being said, it would nevertheless appear that slightly
greater progress -- in improved signal-to-noise ratio, if
nothing else -- might have been made in the past year if certain
sources had actually "contributed" less to the field. It seems
appropriate to recognize these with a special award: The Blivet.

My nominations are given below. (For the idiomatically
challenged, a Blivet is defined as "ten pounds of excrement in a
five-pound bag".) Those who wish to actually receive their
awards are requested to send a bag of at least five pounds'
capacity.

Nominations for the Blivet Awards for 1998
       In no particular order

------------------------------------------

To Art Bell, who cluttered up every discussion list on the net,
not to mention the national media, with his non-resignation. I
wish him better success on any subsequent attempts.

To Fox producer Bob Kiviat, who created the original "Alien
Autopsy" special program in 1996(?) and who created another
special in 1998 revealing his first one to be based on a hoax.
Mr. Kiviat's cynical efforts have served to reaffirm our
understanding that the TV media's purpose for existence is to
make money by selling commercial time, rather than to actually
convey information.

To J. Bond Johnson, for his reawakened awareness of the benefits
of personal recognition for taking a photo of the so-called
"Roswell Wreckage" in 1947. It is clear that he did not
understand what he was doing in 1947, and the years have not
improved his understanding; notwithstanding several changes in
his story to agree with the understandings of others.

To the Citizens Against UFO Secrecy (CAUS), who under the
guidance of former Director Barry Greenwood once enjoyed a
position of respect and credibility, and whose loss of same is
now far advanced. I continue to hope for a return to their
former status, once they realize that in their pursuit of public
attention at any cost, some costs are simply too high.

To Dr. Jonathan Reed, who is reportedly on the run from
unspecified sinister forces, for clobbering an alien with a
stick after it defended itself from his dog. I consider his
hasty action to be shortsighted in the extreme, aliens being far
less plentiful than dogs. I am, however, impressed by Dr. Reed's
ability, from a position of hiding, to engage an agent, begin a
book, and participate in Art Bell's talk program.

Honorable Mentions
------------------

To the unnamed person who was able to identify "mining
machinery" on the asteroid Eros, from a NASA photo whose
smallest resolved detail was 500 meters across.

To all those who continue to expend time, research efforts, and
net bandwidth on the 50-year-old Roswell incident while UFOs fly
unnoticed and uninvestigated, over their heads. May they
speedily regain their feet when their armchairs wear out.

-----

Disclaimer: Although I have given the Blivet Award nominations
all the time I intend to spend on them, I recognize that the
list is not comprehensive. If you feel that a truly deserving
individual has been missed, feel free to nominate further
recipients to your heart's content.

Best regards,
Bob


--
    INSTITUTE FOR UFO RESEARCH
----------------------------------
Bob Thrift, Fort Collins, Colorado
    http://www.frii.com/~iufor/
      email: iufor@frii.com





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                  Is 'E.T' A Retelling Of The Christ Story?

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 02:45:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:28:09 -0500
Subject: Is 'E.T' A Retelling Of The Christ Story?


Source: The Midland Reporter-Telegraph. URL:

http://www.mrt.com/religion/archives/9810/et10.html

Stig

*******

Dr. David R. Allen, new head of the theater program at Midland
College, has a rather interesting, but not unique, theory about
the meaning of "E.T.," the 1983 film from Stephen Spielberg that
has firmly entrenched itself in American culture.

*

Is 'E.T.' a retelling of the Christ story?

By Jimmy Patterson
Staff writer

*

Dr. David R. Allen, new head of the theater program at Midland
College, has a rather interesting, but not unique, theory about
the meaning of "E.T.," the 1983 film from Stephen Spielberg that
has firmly entrenched itself in American culture.

Speculation has always held that the film is a retelling of the
Christ story, and Allen buys into that notion.

"E.T. comes from above, is left behind, is given shelter by
Elliott and, while he is with Elliott, brings plants back to
life," Allen said. "He can communicate on a non-verbal level and
he heals people. He is chased by the authorities, captured by
the authorities and then dies. After his death, Elliott goes to
him and he lives again and then Elliott takes him back to his
space ship and he returns to heaven."

A simple translation with one further parallel: The last thing
E.T. tells Elliott: "I'll be right here," the alien says,
placing a finger on Elliott's heart.

There are overriding messages of faith and spirituality
throughout many of the films of Spielberg, who is of the Jewish
faith.

"Every single one of them," Allen said. "If you look at a lot of
his films, you will see a recurring motif is light and moving
toward the light. That is his sense of the spiritual. During a
scene in 'Amistad,' the camera pans up a slave's body and he is
holding his hand up to the sky and to the light of the stars.
Throughout the film, there's a sense of moving toward the
light."

"Close Encounters of the Third Kind," one of Spielberg's early
films, dealt with "moving toward a greater understanding and of
our place in the world," Allen said.

"Star Wars" is another example of a film that offers a "clear
sense of spirituality with 'The Force' and (producer) George
Lucas' pop take on that."

More recently, this summer's "The Truman Show" had clear
religious overtones.

"One might be able to say that 'The Truman Show' is a feminist
retelling of the story of Eden. And I'm not talking in terms of
feminist being women's power, but in the philosophical sense of
a different point of view than the masculine telling of the
story that came before it: that men were everything and that
everything was done for the man. The feminist meaning is that
neither man nor woman is the most important, but that we are of
equal value.

"If I look at it that way, I see the retelling of the Eden story
(in 'The Truman Show'). The character Christof is God, Truman is
Adam. As Truman goes through his world he is happy but
dissatisfied, and then along comes Eve. One of the actresses in
the movie, Lauren, gives him the knowledge that his world is a
setup for him. He then becomes extremely dissatisfied and leaves
Eden of his own accord. Lauren gives him the knowledge by which
he can have a better life, and then he takes it on despite all
the problems that may come with it."

Other recent movies with clear religious themes include "The
Shawshank
Redemption," "Dead Man Walking" and "The Spitfire Grill."

=A9





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                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:49:01 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:33:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:10:39 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Fox TV Special

>>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:10:05 -0600
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>>I doubt that Santilli can be prosecuted for being a part of a
>>deliberate hoax. It is up to us, the 'buyers' of this type of
>>information, to be on our toes much as we would when investing
>>thousands of dollars in a used automobile...

><snip>

>Hi Mike, hi All,

>I'm a relative newcomer to 'Ufology'. (1993) Before that I had
>not read any books, attended any lectures or conventions, or
>even had occasion to use the moniker 'UFO' much at all. I still
>do not attend conventions or lectures unless I'm there as a
>'speaker' with Budd. So, thank you for the background history.
>I'm sure that many others on the list were unaware of Kals'
>'roots' so to speak.

John, if everyone who came to UFOlogy as a newbe, had personal
experiences such as you had, it would be interesting...unfortunately,
most have nothing but opinions, say....like mine. <g>
In my opinion, while You and I may take different sides on an
issue, you have added much to this list. Keep it up...even
if you are sawing my ears off. <G>

>It really explains a lot about Kal. I was always wondering where
>all the ~venom~ was coming from if this guy was just an
>objective researcher who had simply investigated the Meier case
>and was reporting his findings. It was a mystery to me where the
>~vehemence~ of his attacks was coming from. If what you say is
>so, (and I have absolutely no reason to doubt your recounting of
>history) then Kal Korff is no longer an enigma to me. In fact
>you have 'humanized' him for me.

Kal is a well educated individual...I don't think anything I say
is going to effect him detrimentally. I am not trying to say
that he cannot think for himself, but I do think, as you have so
aptly expressed it, that he has a lot of "venom" in him, just
looking for a place to inject it. <g>

>As for Moore. I don't know the man or his work so I cannot/will
>not comment on that. _But_ - what he did with Kal (a 16 year old
>at the time) was tantamount to psychological abuse and if true,
>then Moore is a genuine low-life. A self-serving (at any cost)
>creep who is not beyond using kids to advance his own interests.
>Made my skin crawl to read your account of it.

If you want to know about William L. (Bill) Moore, I can help
you. I have the 1989 MUFON CONVENTION in Las Vegas, where Bill
Moore makes his intentions and actions plain for all to
hear...He was received very heatedly...bbbbrrrrrrrr...talk about
a chill up and down your spine...(after it cooled down in there),
he definitely put one there.

Ask Stan Freidman, Linda Howe, Walt Andres, Jacques Vallee, John
Brandenburg, John Lear, Bill Cooper, Bill English, Don Eker, and
many many others who were there to see Bill's presentation...
see what they tell you... I can back up what I am saying with
the film itself... Let us see how much time has altered their
memories over the past nine and a half years....<g>

I have other video with Mr. Moore on it as well, including
the Oct. 14, 1988 special entitled: 'UFO Cover-Up Live From
Washington, DC'

I also have an audio tape interview with Bill Moore from the Art
Bell show, dated Feb. 7, 1993...Don Ecker was also involved in
this interview....

>Kal, you have my sympathy. Apparently you were robbed of some
>important developmental years by someone whose personal agenda
>precluded any genuine concern for you as a person or respect for
>you to choose your own path in life. I can only hope that in
>spite of it all, you had an oportunity to enjoy your teen-age in
>spite of being sucked into the center of a shitstorm at such a
>tender age. How you survived it is a wonder to me. I came to
>this mess (ufology) as an experienced adult and -all- of my
>coping skills have been tested to the max. With all that life
>experience on my side it has still been one of the most
>difficult things I have ever done/engaged in. I can't begin to
>imagine what it was like for you as an impressionable kid to
>have to deal with that and more. (Moore)

You may have gone just a little over the edge her, John...<G> I
don't think Kal is as bad off as you seem to think. In fact, I
think he "thinks" he is correct and everyone else is
maladjusted. Ha,ha,ha...

Remember, he was 16 when he published this book. He had already
pretty much set his course in life by that time...

I don't think we can totally blame Moore, as much as I would
like to for Kal turning out the way he has.... Maybe Phil Klass,
but not Moore... <G> Klass... Korff... hmmmm... interesting they
have something in common...

I'm sorry Phil, please forgive me for putting you in the same
arena with Kal... I humbly apologize. ;-)

>Thanx for the info Mike.

>It, "splains a lot about Lucy!" <g>


Thanks John. I hope I don't falter and fall on my face when the
smoke clears...It could happen you know... but, that's one thing
about age, you learn how to get back up and wipe the egg off of
your face and go again...

REgards, Mike

ICQ#:7508455.
(502) 683-6811






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               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 23:53:01 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:37:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 07:59:57 -0500
>Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 07:59:57 -0500
>Subject: -=[For The Record]=- Military Ability to Detect &

<snip>


>Stephens: When something untoward enters into the tracking field
>of NORAD/Fence, it then begins a series of tracking logarithms
>to track speed, location, altitude, departure angle, mass, heat,
>and inherent velocity. From there it runs a test for itself to
>confirm that whatever it is not something we have in space.
>From there a management program kicks in called, 'Intruder
>Assessment.' If a series of democratic protocols weighs out
>then the next step is to start a serious of visual confirmations
>with our own air assets. Stealth 117A and or SR-71 are
>dispatched to attempt intercept.


Don't forget the Sopwith Camels and the Warthogs, if we are
going to use SR-71s as interceptors, let's send other aircraft
that are just as effective.

The SR-71 needs about three States to make a 90 degree turn, so
that makes it ideal for such a mission.  And just how many
SR-71s did the USAF have in 1997? Zero was it? Guess they
borrowed some from NASA. Someone might want to check this out.
Nah, that's not necessary, just better to take in the nifty
stories with no checking.

<snip>

>Gersten: Is there any explanation for the dramatic increase to
>100-200 a day over the past few years?

>Stephens: No.

>Gersten: What is the Office of Intruder Assessment?

>Stephens: It is a top secret enclave as part of the USAF, formed
>during WW2, to deal with any from of stealth into our air space
>from any source. The USAF-OIA was formed 4-9-1942.

Yeah, but back then it was Army Air Corps-OIA, then it became
the Air Force-OIA, and finally USAF-OIA.

Never mind FOX will have an hour series on OIA next week, and
then six months later there will be an expose of the series.

I am sure glad CAUS got rid of that Greenwood character; he
would never bring us neat stuff like this. He would have
demanded justification for unusual claims, definitely a 'no-fun'
ufologist.


--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
Telephone: (860) 546-9135





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                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:49:32 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:41:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:03:48 -0800
>From: Kal Korff <KalKorff@KalKorff.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:14:30 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>Dear Jim,

>Aside from whatever personal opinions you have of me, which are
>irrelevant but you decide to take the low road nonetheless,
>don't you think it is important that:

>1) The part of the model Meier used to fake numerous pictures
>and at least one motion picture were exposed and shown for the
>first time _ever_ on national TV?

>2) That people now know (mass public) about Meier being a cult?

>3) That we know the name of at least two of the people involved
>in the alien autopsy hoax,?? etc., etc.

>I would submit, sir, that these are important contributions to
>the database of knowledge and well overdue course corrections of
>the data.

>Your comment about Kalliope Meier are a wonderful example of
>someone missing the point: _yes_ she _is_ a _good_witness_ and a
>_credible_ one. The proof is in the evidence she came forth with
>and other pieces recently admitted to being fakes by Meier
>himself. Her claims have been verified. Write her yourself, shut
>up, or forever continue to be an uninformed armchair "critic"
>who is just plain wrong, has conducted no firsthand
>investigation himself, hasn't been to Switzerland, hasn't spoken
>to Kalliope Meier as I have, etc. ...

Dear List,

I've received this response from Michael Hesemann, who has a lot
of first hand information that thoroughly discredits Korff's
attempts to debunk Meier. Of course, I have my own studies that
do the same, including the video tape in which Mrs. Meier in
1979 described her daytime sighting of the beamship along with
other adult witnesses and her & Meier's three children, one of
whom drew his rendition of the beamship, which drawing is shown
in the video. (To ebk: Michael's response is somewhat wider than
70 characters, but if I crop it it will have the appearance we
wish to avoid, so I've left it as is.)  Jim

This from Michael:


Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 23:03:56 -0500
From: Michael Hesemann <100660.3672@compuserve.com>
Subject: Korff's latest attack
To: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>

Dear Jim,

here=B4s my response to the KKK statement:

A case of the format of the Billy Meier case can only be
investigated through an interdisciplinary approach in which
every involved expert has its own role. It does not help the
case if, e.g., ten researchers repeatedly go to Switzerland to
interview the very same witnesses ten times, repeating their
experiences ad nauseam. It helps the case if each team member
becomes active in his area of expertise and that the team
members share the results in their disciplines. Therefore, it
was more than sufficient when, in 1978-80, Lt.Col. W.C.Stevens,
Brit and Lee Elders and Tom Welch went to Switzerland to perform
the first field investigation, which in 1998 was repeated by
Jaime Maussan,  professional TV journalist of TELEVISA, Mexico=B4s
largest private TV station, and myself, a cultural
anthropologist and historian, confirming the results of the
first investigation.

In the course of our investigation, which included four visits
to Switzerland on my site and two visits on Jaimes side we were
able to interview 24 eye-witnesses, 21 of them FIGU-members,
two just normal inhabitants of the village of Schmidr=FCti and one
a senior United Nations diplomat, screen Billy=B4s picture and
footage collection, his metal samples and visit and measure four
of his contact/picture taking sites. In the evaluation of his 8
mm films, we were able to locate a 1st generation copy from 1976
and several first generation prints of his pictures, material
far superior from anything the critics of the case ever worked
on.

In the years before, I visited Billy=B4s place half a dozen times
and had two very intensive conversations with Kalliope Meier,
Billy=B4s ex-wife, one in 1988, another one in 1990. At that time,
she testified as a witness of Billy=B4s contacts and confirmed in
an affidavit (of 1991) that she was a witness of Billy=B4s
contacts by herself and that she never found any indication that
Billy manipulated or faked any evidence.

So please allow me the question: was she lying then or is she
lying now? Or are we just confronted with a "war of the Roses"?
Is Kiviat=B4s "journalism" as serious as someone who tries to
learn the truth about Woody Allen by just interviewing Mia
Farrow?

It is a matter of fact and on the records that Kiviat contacted
Billy in March 1998, promising a fair presentation of his case.
He actually told Billy that he believes in his case and tried
for years to present it to the American public in a open-minded,
positive way; he told me the same.. For this reason, Billy gave
him the permission to use his footage. Bob Kiviat lied to us and
betrayed our confidence. His FOX-HOAX is far away from being any
fair, journalistic treatment of the case but nothing else than a
public condemnation without even the chance of a defense. On the
other hand, it proved nothing else but how unscrupulous and
manipulative Hollywood producers can be if they smell a quick
buck.

1. Poppy=B4s trash-can-trash is utter nonsense. Yes, there is a
slight resemblance of these trash can lids and a part of the
wedding cake ship. But what does this tell us about a case
which, in his "photo phase", was already closed in 1976, after
half a dozen types of UFOs in authentic settings were taken,
objects from which we have comparative shots of identical craft
from several countries? I admit the "wedding cake ships" were
shot in a rather difficult phase, after the original Semjase
contacts ended and just before Billy had, after the stress of
many attacks, a breakdown from which he still recovers.
Therefore, there is the possibility, that indeed, like others,
these pictures served the purpose to contaminate the case. On
the other hand we carefully checked the pictures and Billy=B4s
video of the craft. The trash can lids are of plastic, the ship
of a highly reflective metal. The ship is filmed hovering just
in front of a big tree -we compared it with several miniature
trees and the big Swiss weather pines and found its very compact
structure being that of a large weather pine-, with the tree=B4s
colours reflecting on its surface. When, on the original film,
Billy zooms in and out the scene, you clearly see the meadow on
which he stand, and the distance of several hundred feet
betweeen him and the tree and craft. Therefore we are quite sure
it is a large object.

2. Everybody who ever met Billy Meier in person can confirm that
his personality is not that of a cult leader, nor is his
position in FIGU that of an autoritarian leader. KKK never met
Billy, therefore he can=B4t say anything about him. The structure
of FIGU is purely democratic, with votes deciding every single
point on its agenda. A cult has a totalitarian ideology: BELIEVE
and you will find salvation. Billy teaches: Don=B4t believe, find
the truth by yourself. In his philosophy, man can only evolve
through self-realization. He does not appear on public, he does
not want to become a public personality, because he does not
want people to follow him or consider him anything special.
Instead, he wants people to study and find the truth by
themselves, because that is the only way how they can grow and
evolve.

3. The FOX HOAX does not expose ANY part of the Alien Autopsy
Material as faked. Since the footage was proven to be authentic
by a careful investigation I performed between 1995 and 1996,
Kiviat had to look for something else. He did and debunked the
dubious "tent footage" which has nothing to do with the Alien
Autopsy Material and was never published by Ray Santilli, after
the AA cameraman did not verify it.  The "tent footage" appeared
after Ray Santilli gave some dark reels he got from the
cameraman to a studio which promised to computer enhance what
was on it and gave him a tape with the "tent footage" as a
result. After the cameraman did not verify it, Santilli did not
publish it, although he had shown it to several researchers
directly after it came out of the studio. Later he learned that
the studio owner had played a practical joke, staging the scene,
which, just in shadows, was recognizable on the 16 mm film.

Michael Hesemann

---






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               Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:15:31 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:48:12 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread

>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:53:08 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread

>Of course, there is an assumption here that some global "truth"
>is there to be found, and most psychoanalysts I know believe
>that to a great degree we all live within our own "reality".
>But, that's getting too philosophical
>for a Tuesday. . . . <g>

>Steve


Steve,

I think this is the key to the whole thing, and rather than
avoiding discussion we should be deeply immersed in this.

There may well be no "truth" or "reality" that is common to all.
I was only half joking when I said: "The truth really isn't out
there".

Bob





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               Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:15:31 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:58:07 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread


>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:53:08 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread

>As long as the subject of alien visitation is entertaining,
>television will incorporate that theme into its productions (as
>will major Hollywood studios).  This will make it far more
>difficult to convince the general public of the validity of this
>line of research and provide lots of material for skeptics and
>critics to throw into mix.

Hi Steve.

Even in Si-Fi, the idea of Intelligent Life elsewhere than this
small blue marble in the blackness of the void of space, keeps
alive the idea that we might not be alone in the Multiverse. As
long as the masses, are comfortable with the idea, even in the
Si-Fi format, it is just a natural step across the void from
Si-Fi to reality.

Some more than others make the transition painlessly, but some
suffer emotional trauma until they come to accept the idea. Once
that is accomplished, their minds open as the preverbial Lotus
Blossom, as it extends itself to the Sun to gather It's Life
Giving Essence, while at the same time clinging tightly to the
Earth where its roots are planted, gathering nourishment to
maintain its earthly manifestation...

So, let us always endeavour to promote the idea of Universal
Life, whether it be in Sci-Fi or Reality...<smile>

REgards, Mike







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               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 06:29:05 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:07:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>To: UFO UpDates Subscribers:;
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs
>Date: 29 December 1998 20:45

>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:09:59 -0500
>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

>>From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto

>>From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
>>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 01:10:05 EST
>>To: CAUSupdates@caus.org
>>Subject: [CAUS updates] - Our Military's Ability to Detect and Identify
>>UFOs

>>On this Tuesday, CAUS again shares with you some very
>>interesting comments by CAUS' favorite NASA contractor, Robert
>>A.M. Stephens:

>>Gersten: Robert...can you tell us something about our military's
>>ability to detect and identify UFOs?

>>Stephens: When something untoward enters into the tracking field
>>of NORAD/Fence, it then begins a series of tracking logarithms
>>to track speed, location, altitude, departure angle, mass, heat,
>>and inherent velocity. From there it runs a test for itself to
>>confirm that whatever it is is not something we have in space.
>>>From there a management program kicks in called, 'Intruder
>>Assessment.' If a series of democratic protocols weighs out
>>then the next step is to start a serious of visual confirmations
>>with our own air assets. Stealth 117A and or SR-71 are
>>dispatched to attempt intercept. From there the 'Fence'
>>protocols go through a series of 'what is' formats until the
>>intruding element is either confirmed to be something from us or
>>an unknown. Unknowns are called a 'Gray.'

I am amazed to discover that this Stephens character is being
taken seriously by anybody. The F-117A is a stealth interdictor
as as per usual I note that total lack of military language to
describe events.

I love the idea of democratic protocols - in the military.

This stuff is destined only for the ashcan of history and again
demonstrates the ease with which bullshitters are able to pull
the wool over people's eye and to be taken seriously.

Terry is absolutely right about the supposed 'intercept'
abilities of either the SR-71 and the F-117A although of course
the YF-12 derivative was different and the AIM 47-A missile was
intended to be used with something like a Hughes radar system to
track, detect and intercept Soviet intruders.

In fact, and I am sorry to digress, one of the advanced Low
Aspect Ratio discplanes of the USAF was almost certainly an
early attempt (from nid to late 1950s) to develop an
'interceptor disc' and interestingly the AIM 47-A was designed
at that time, supposedly only being brought into use in the mid
1960s.......

But that's another story.........

Tim Matthews





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                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 06:35:45 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:07:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:10:39 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Fox TV Special

>>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:10:05 -0600
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>>I doubt that Santilli can be prosecuted for being a part of a
>>deliberate hoax. It is up to us, the 'buyers' of this type of
>>information, to be on our toes much as we would when investing
>>thousands of dollars in a used automobile...

><snip>

>Hi Mike, hi All,

>I'm a relative newcomer to 'Ufology'. (1993) Before that I had
>not read any books, attended any lectures or conventions, or
>even had occasion to use the moniker 'UFO' much at all. I still
>do not attend conventions or lectures unless I'm there as a
>'speaker' with Budd. So, thank you for the background history.
>I'm sure that many others on the list were unaware of Kal's
>'roots' so to speak.

>It really explains a lot about Kal. I was always wondering where
>all the ~venom~ was coming from if this guy was just an
>objective researcher who had simply investigated the Meier case
>and was reporting his findings. It was a mystery to me where the
>~vehemence~ of his attacks was coming from. If what you say is
>so, (and I have absolutely no reason to doubt your recounting of
>history) then Kal Korff is no longer an enigma to me. In fact
>you have 'humanized' him for me.

>As for Moore. I don't know the man or his work so I cannot/will
>not comment on that. _But_ - what he did with Kal (a 16 year old
>at the time) was tantamount to psychological abuse and if true,
>then Moore is a genuine low-life. A self-serving (at any cost)
>creep who is not beyond using kids to advance his own interests.
>Made my skin crawl to read your account of it.

>Kal, you have my sympathy. Apparently you were robbed of some
>important developmental years by someone whose personal agenda
>precluded any genuine concern for you as a person or respect for
>you to choose your own path in life. I can only hope that in
>spite of it all, you had an oportunity to enjoy your teen-age in
>spite of being sucked into the center of a shitstorm at such a
>tender age. How you survived it is a wonder to me. I came to
>this mess (ufology) as an experienced adult and -all- of my
>coping skills have been tested to the max. With all that life
>experience on my side it has still been one of the most
>difficult things I have ever done/engaged in. I can't begin to
>imagine what it was like for you as an impressionable kid to
>have to deal with that and more. (Moore)


All fine and dandy but is it not the case that Meier is and has
been shown to be a prize bullshitter and photo faker?

He has developed what amounts to a UFO cult and such things are,
in my view, very unwelcome. OK, maybe Kal Korff isn't God's gift
but I suspect that the REAL reason people are attacking him is
because Adamski and Meier are both examples of the BS so evident
in much UFO history and also central to many peoples' beliefs in
supposed "alien contact" and the benevolence of the Funk Soul
Brothers in Space.

Korff appears to be the man telling a Mormon that Joe Smith was
a hoaxer......

Tim Matthews






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                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:52:31 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:09:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 17:11:08 -0500 (EST)
>Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:49:37 -0500
>Subject: Re:  Cough, Korf, Ahem!

Previously, I had written:

>>But, with all that's transpired, doesn't it seem more likely
>>than not that the AA footage is fake? After all, Santilli has
>>got nothing to lose and everything to gain by coming clean with
>>all the info if it's real. On the other hand, being secretive
>>hasn't helped him one bit and his sudden claim of being out of
>>the loop regarding the tent footage is a bit too convenient for
>>my taste.

Bob's response:

>He didn't claim this suddenly. He was dismissive of the tent
>footage early into things when the cameraman was shown it and
>said he didn't shoot it. This was before Kiviat's FIRST program,
>and the reason Ray didn't let Kiviat use the tent footage in
>that first program.

>I did my own analysis of the tent footage a long time ago and
>concluded it had been clumsily doctored to disguise the faces of
>the actors.

Granted, the tent footage looks different than the AA footage.
But so what? Even if Santilli was involved in faking them, it's
unlikely that he personally shot either one. The difference
would be easily attributed to different production standards and
techniques unique to different production teams. One simply did
a better job than the other, much to Santilli's chagrin, I'm
sure.

Doesn't it seem probable that Santilli was dissappointed with
the tent results and, realizing he couldn't make it dissappear,
generated a bogus cover story just in case it got out in public?

Obviously, Santilli's explanations regarding his dismissal of
the tent footage, as well as the validity of the AA footage, are
both 100% dependent on the real existence of the cameraman in
question. Since you never talked to the camera man directly,
then you have no real way of knowing he even exists. Faced with
such lack of verification, why do you choose to believe Santilli
regarding the tent footage but, on the other hand, remain
undecided regarding the AA footage? It would seem that if his
word, alone, was good enough for the tent footage, it would be
good enough for the AA footage as well. Both of Santilli's
claims are severely lacking in support or verification.

Basically, all you've got is Santilli's good word on anything
related to either the dismissal of the tent footage or the
validity of the AA footage. I can't see how one claim has more
weight than the other.

Roger Evans





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                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:47:25 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:13:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

Hey guys.  Let's change the name of this thread to:

Hack, Hack, Korff, Korff!

Bob






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                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:47:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:17:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:49:32 -0800 (PST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>,
>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>I've received this response from Michael Hesemann

>A case of the format of the Billy Meier case can only be
>investigated through an interdisciplinary approach in which
>every involved expert has its own role. It does not help the
>case if, e.g., ten researchers repeatedly go to Switzerland to
>interview the very same witnesses ten times, repeating their
>experiences ad nauseam.

It may not help the case, but it is essential for the sake of
authenticating the case. If ten investigators get ten different
or ten identical stories, either event tells us more than a
uniform account from a single "team".

Even this is no guarantee if all of the investigators are
"believers" or even if they are insufficiently skeptical. An
example of this is the Beaver PA photo case from 1965, which was
investigated by the local newspaper, NICAP, and John Fuller, all
of whom were convinced the case was genuine. Later
investigation, however, gained an admission from the principals
that it was a hoax.

Obviously, there is a point of diminishing returns in this, but
Mr. Hesemann is not the person to determine where that point
lies. Only the research community can decide that.

Sadly, many of us will rely on cases which were insufficiently
investigated and which were never validated by additional
investigators. There is also a problem with high profile cases,
since psychological pressure is such that witnesses who started
out engaging in a prank are much less likely to admit to a hoax
when the result will be public humiliation, or even legal action
by those fooled (in the event money changed hands on the basis
of the validity of the report).

I think that no case should be investigated by less than two
investigators. And I also think that every important
investigation should be followed up about 1 year and 5 years
later with a reinterview, leaving every possible amount of room
for the witness to explain or disavow the reality of their
report without blame.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo.htm
------






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                Re: BBC Program On British Cattle Mutilations

From: Lynda Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 08:31:16 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:43:08 -0500
Subject: Re: BBC Program On British Cattle Mutilations


>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 00:49:56 +0100
>Subject: BBC Program On British Cattle Mutilations

>Forwarded from the UASR list.

>*******

>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:14:22 +0000
>From: Richard Courtier <richard.courtier@btinternet.com>
>To: starfriends <starfriends@esosoft.com>
>Subject: [UASR]>Cattle Mutilations

>The BBC is currently filming a a seven episode TV series
>"Millennium TV-The Big End" the first programme being shown on
>Sunday 27 December on UK national TV. It is expected that the
>programme on cattle mutilations will be shown on the third
>Sunday, 10 Jan.

The article, in the latest UK UFO Rag, on 'animal mutilations'
(another 'World Exclusive' etc. etc.) is very poor, to say the
least, and it is more than obvious to those country born and
bred types (oogh aargh) that the photos of mutilated animals are
evidence of very little more than dead animals.

Interestingly the main focus for the article is sheep (!) and
lambs. Several cases of lamb deaths are included along with more
photographs - this time of farm buildings - and it does not
appear to have occured to researcher David Cayton (who spoke at
our 1998 Conference) that lambs are very likely to die in small
numbers and then be eaten by other animals, birds etc. Such is
the natural world....

But we are told that "lasers" have been used, despite there
being no evidence to suggest that lasers are involved in the few
cases where "sharp cuts" are noted.

Has Cayton ever actually seen, handled or used a scalpel?
Probably not, though if he had he would know that these are
particularly sharp and very capable of producing the sharp and
well-defined cuts seen on certain supposedly (alien) mutilated
animals.

Those of us who have worked on farms and whose parents worked
for local veterinary surgeons have seen and handled scalpels and
know their capabilities.

And where is the "UFO" link?? Simply a very vague sighting by a
farmer (page 9);

"Incidentally, this farmer, with his son, had witnessed a UFO
near his farm six months earlier, which he reported to the
Police in Witney".

As we know, thanks to Irene Bott and Nick "the Millionaire"
Pope, the Police are "trained observers" so they must have been
especially useful in the subsequent enquiry......

Recently, 'Fortean Times' magazine, by far superior to 'UFO
Magazine', ran an article by Rob Irving which dealt with the
question of horse attacks, a subject for concern in Hampshire
(if I remember correctly). Basically, some sick nutters have
been attacking horses and cutting them with knives.

No aliens though I'm afraid.

Get this.......... More expert witnesses!

Remember "the inspirational" Tony Dodd? Yes, the same Tony Dodd
who claims, with no evidence, that 'aliens' were recovered from
the Berwyn Mountains "UFO crash" and that 'aliens' drop dead and
mutilated animals out of their spacecraft on regular occasions.

(Tony also told me, back in Feb.1997, that the UK government had
met with aliens on 23rd December 1996 in secret conference and
that the aliens looked human!)

Andy Roberts has conclusively shown what we already knew; that
nothing untoward took place in the Berwyn Mountains beyond the
strange sight of mad old Margaret Fry annoying local witnesses
into admitting there had been any kind of 'UFO incident' at the
time.

But Tony is an expert: (page 8)

"Tony Dodd has always believed that MAFF have one or more
'special recovery' teams who respond rapidly, to bring in
mutilated animals when informed by vets, the police or a farmer.
Could Barton Hall be one of these 'Investigations Centres' to
deal with such activity."

God help us all.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE PRESENTED TO SUPPORT THESE FANTASIES -
because there simply isn't any but the paranoid and gullible
believer, like Cayton, thinks that the people at Barton Hall are
lying to him.

Having driven past Barton Hall - situated just North of J32 on
the M6, on the main Preston-Lancaster road, on probably 200
occasions and knowing people who have worked there, I can only
say that this claim is the worst possible fantasy. Security is
minimal; you can drive up to the place with ease. One can only
imagine the levels of security needed to protect such a '
mutilation recovery and investigations' operation as described
by Cayton! Despite the suggestion from Cayton that this might be
an 'Investigations Centre' into 'alien animal mutilations' he
writes;

"Half a mile down the driveway marked 'private' [big deal, TM]
and off the public main road, I came across by chance a slip
road which wound its' way to the reception building. The
photograph I managed to take of a nearby sign clearly states
'Veterinary Investigation - Specimens Only'.

Unbelievable but typical of the
join-up-the-dots-and-get-no-picture nonsense so prevalent within
modern Ufology.

Snuff Movies - The New Ufological Obsession?

All too many Ufologists prefer to brighten up their increasingly
desperate lives with claims about underground bases (see our
report on the non events at RAF Rudloe Manor last Summer) and
'hybridization' facilities (Dulce etc. blah). Now we have
pictures of dead animals littering the pages of a newsstand
magazine with NO warning as to the disturbing contents.

We recently showed, for the sake of balance I suppose, part of a
Linda Moulton-Howe production ("Strange Harvest 1993") but all
the posters and supporting material were quick to point out that
this was not to be seen by children or the easily shocked. We
stated this on the radio and in the local papers.

No such warning in 'UK UFO Magazine'!

But plenty of gory and probably unnecessary details on pages 9,
50 and 51.

So where is the "mountain of evidence" that Dodd and Cayton
claim to have collected? Kevin McClure, hot on the trail of UFO
misleaders, has written to both the RSPCA and MAFF and he tells
me that he has not received any information from them to support
these mutilation claims. Having lived in a sheep farming
community in North Lancashire and having worked on farms I have
never heard of strange animal deaths beyond the expected attacks
of predators - which often can and do leave gory remains and
'neat' cuts.

I have heard, and reported upon, vague stories of 'strange
animal deaths' but these seem explainable and nothing 'alien'
seems to be involved.

Why ET should leave the mutilated remains is anyone's guess but
no doubt Dodd and Cayton will invent some fantastic nonsense to
get them out of this little problem......

There is more......

I understand that from an _Insurance_ point of view it may serve
farmers well to claim death by mutilation or death by 'unknown'
causes. I think more research into this is required........

Remarkably, Cayton makes little of the question or radiation (he
discovered nothing using a Geiger counter) which all sentient
beings know is to be found in several areas; especially those
subject to radiation from Chernobyl, a major problem for farmers
in the late 1980s.

He makes a big hole in his own lacking argument by claiming that
the lambs were 'mutilated after death' which is what we might
expect. He claims that it is unlikely that they would have died
from natural causes 'in April' but presents no evidence to
support this  - again.

What is worse, Granada TV, who approached us to help them in
their six part UFO documentary to be shown in January 1999, is
going to put this crap out to millions of viewers on prime-time!

They seemed to be confused by my factual presentation of the
evidence for man-made UFOs and have told more than a few
researchers that they have to make fantastic claims and stick to
the 'alien party line'. In other words, bollocks to the evidence
as long as it makes for good TV! As a result of this revelation
neither Lancashire UFO Society nor the British UFO Studies
Centre will be taking part in this six-part joke. The company
does not seem to be prepared to pay a reasonable research fee
but no doubt Caytons' massive ego will be massaged after this
tripe goes out next year.

Tim Matthews.







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               Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:29:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:44:00 -0500
Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread


>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:15:31 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: The Silence Is Deafening or Kill The Thread

>Hi Steve.

>Even in Si-Fi, the idea of Intelligent Life elsewhere than this
>small blue marble in the blackness of the void of space, keeps
>alive the idea that we might not be alone in the Multiverse. As
>long as the masses, are comfortable with the idea, even in the
>Si-Fi format, it is just a natural step across the void from
>Si-Fi to reality.

Star Trek's popularity was in part caused by the fact that a
show about a future in which the Earth was part of a larger
"Federation" gave viewers the hope for a brighter tomorrow. It
is that hope for a future that resulted in what might be
described as a "cult" following that remains in place today.
This is to some degree true for Sci-Fi in general, but much of
it is too dark for most think positively about.

I would suspect that the same might be true for those who
believe in intelligent life visiting our world from another
place. If an alien race is able to cross the void to visit our
world using what would seem to be a magical technology that we
can't comprehend, then it would show that there is hope for a
brighter future with a broader purpose than simply waiting for
our Sun to go nova.

>Some more than others make the transition painlessly, but some
>suffer emotional trauma until they come to accept the idea. Once
>that is accomplished, their minds open as the preverbial Lotus
>Blossom, as it extends itself to the Sun to gather It's Life
>Giving Essence, while at the same time clinging tightly to the
>Earth where its roots are planted, gathering nourishment to
>maintain its earthly manifestation...

And I thought I was getting too philosophical. . . . <g>

>So, let us always endeavour to promote the idea of Universal
>Life, whether it be in Sci-Fi or Reality...<smile>

>REgards, Mike

Agreed. But I'd add that the Universal Life you speak of may
not resemble what our conception of it is.

Happy new Year,

Steve






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                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:19:20 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:48:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:47:25 -0500 (EST)
>Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:13:22 -0500
>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

Previously, Bob suggested:

>Hey guys.  Let's change the name of this thread to:

>Hack, Hack, Korff, Korff!

Great idea, Bob. Or how about even:

"Turn your head and Korff."

(sorry ladies)

Roger Evans





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                         Montana UFO Caught on Video

From: "Webmaster" <webmaster@interweb.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:19:17 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:50:56 -0500
Subject: Montana UFO Caught on Video


[Non-Subscriber Post]


Dear All,

I am appealing for anyone with any information regarding
sightings and encounters in Montana, USA.

We have recently received video footage of an object coming out
of the forest bordering George Town Lake, Montana on July 10th
1998.

If anyone has had any sightings, etc, around this time please
contact us at the addresses below.

We hope to post stills and video clips of the object on our Web
site in the near future.

Many thanks,

Ian Darlington.
Editor/Webmaster 'Skywatchers'.

Cornwall UFO Research Group
http://www.interweb-design.co.uk/cuforg
mailto:cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk
ICQ 12387110






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                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 19:27:42 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 08:38:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:19:20 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:47:25 -0500 (EST)
>>Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:13:22 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>Previously, Bob suggested:

>>Hey guys.  Let's change the name of this thread to:

>>Hack, Hack, Korff, Korff!

>Great idea, Bob. Or how about even:

>"Turn your head and Korff."

>(sorry ladies)

>Roger Evans

We have another suggestion.... don't change that title.
Instead... take our advise...

For scratchy throats, coughs due to colds or just bad research,
most Doctors recommend Dr. G's Freshly Made.  It's loaded with
vitamin G and suppresses that nasty Korff, er, we mean that
nasty cough!

It also helps with acid indigestion, liver bile, kidney stones,
diarrhea of the mouth and, helps build bodies 8 ways.

So the next time you have a couch,  I mean Korff, uh, cough....
pick up a bottle of Freshly Made at your grocers, today.  Relief
is just a few ounces away.

Just don't go writing advertisements after imbibing. Otherwise,
you may drink our stuff and drive.  You may not make it home
alive, but it will be one hell of a trip.

Dr. G






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               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Geri & Alfred Webre <Ecotoday@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:46:17 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:36:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 07:59:57 -0500
>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: -=[For The Record]=- Military Ability to
>Detect & Identify UFOs


>From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto

>Stephens: No. ... The actions of the government (way above
>NASA), act, respond, interact, manage information, disseminate
>information, handle intelligence, seek intel, divulge data,
>delude intelligence, avert attention, in anything and everything
>regarding the intruder enigma under the exact formulae and
>protocol as the U. S. Government did during World War 2. I am
>not suggesting anything here. But from a warfare background,
>which I hail from, the comparison needs to be considered that
>we, 'The Government' at higher levels, are on some type of
>war-footing.

>Too, our only true compelling evidence related to this, from a
>purely civilian standpoint, is the nomenclature used in the
>intruder interface with our humanity. That being:

>1. In not one encounter interview in any form is the word
>'Invited' used.

>2. The only word, and exclusively used throughout, is
>'abducted.

>3. Thus, in any other understood venue, this is the most
>sinister violation of our humanity. In any other form, if an
>opposing nation were to do exactly what the intruder enigma is
>doing to us, I leave to your rational thought what our response
>as a collective nation would be.

>This brings us back to the question "is there a 'defense' to
>this, then?" No. And this might explain why the perceived
>secrecy is the way it is.

<snip>

From: Geri & Alfred Webre <Ecotoday@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:46:17 EST
To: updates@globalserve.net
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


In a message dated 98-12-29 08:04:06 EST, you write:

Dear All,

We find that gratuitous sarcasm and dissing tend to corrode the
atmosphere of discussion about UFO posts that may have a
'Colonel' (sic) of insight here and there.

Indeed cute dissing may have more long-range deleterious impacts
of a discussion list than the original perceived
mis-information, and we would like to request that members
restrain their impulses to be stand-up comedians when dealing
with important UFO issues, and rise above the ad hominem.

From what we understand, Stephens (for whom we hold no brief)
himself admits to being in the UFO field for only 70 days or so.
He deserves some slack. Heads up critique, but not reckless
political gossip.  He is, after all, from a war-strategy
background, and may have something valuable to contribute, at
least to our thought processes.

One of his observations (below) seemed to us to carry a great
deal of insight. Not that it is proof of any particular set of
facts.  But the statement does seem to frame the issues in ways
that we lawyers and psychologists find useful.

What does the List think?

Geri & Alfred Webre

Vancouver, BC






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               Re: DISPATCH # 113 -- the weekly newsletter of

From: ParaScope@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 20:25:36 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:43:20 -0500
Subject: Re: DISPATCH # 113 -- the weekly newsletter of

S O M E T H I N G   S T R A N G E   I S   H A P P E N I N G

12/30/98

Quotes of the Year

In an extended year-end quote collection, this edition of the
ParaScope Dispatch offers a tiny sampling of how some of the
TV's most highly paid psychics (often called "political
commentators") were less accurate than a Magic 8-Ball during
1998.



"If he's not telling the truth...his presidency is numbered in
days. This thing is not going to drag out....If he's not telling
the trutch and the evidence shows that, [he] will resign,
perhaps this week."

--Longtime critic of wasteful federal spending and recipient of
government subsidies for his New Mexico ranch, ABC's Sam
Donaldson on President Bill Clinton's future, Jan. 25, 1998

-------

"There is, ladies and gentlemen, absolutely no possibility that
a so-called 'semen-stained dress' exists."

--Former Ku Klux Klan chair-catcher and discoverer of Al
Capone's empty vault, now CNBC's not-ready-for-NBC-primetime
gabmeister Geraldo Rivera, a self- admitted "friend" and
Clinton-booster, July 8, 1998.

-------

"There will be no impeachment hearings before January 1999."

--Bombastic prognosticator and General Electric (owner of NBC)
corporate lapdog, John "WRONG!" McLaughlin, July 31, 1998.

-------

"It's going to be Custer's Last Stand for the Democrats in
November. They will be absolutely obliterated."

Former Clinton pollster, political advisor and prostitute
aficionado turned TV whore and political commentator Dick
Morris, Sept. 14, 1998.

-----------------------

Rant of the Week: �Just Do It�

Every week we pick the wackiest, scariest, nastiest or funniest
rant from the hundreds of letters received by us here at
ParaScope headquarters, and present it to you as our Rant of the
Week. This week, �Pogel� points out that actions speak louder
than words, as evidenced by Hitler, the Jews, and the grass, or
the roots, or the grassroots. Or something like that. Enjoy.

"Hallo ! people been writing for 2,000 years,not many did
something about it. the last one was HITLER and look what the
goveernments did. all because they were under jewish control,so
they commited all the crimes. working for jews ,they brought
genocite to the german people and the decline of the west,and we
are so stupit and pay for it. if the upper classes are not
willing to do anything,then who will??? the grass root?they dont
have any leader ship. so stop writing and do it over throw the
government,that is the only way. good luck."

------

All rants are printed as is,with spelling and grammar goofs left
uncorrected. Some rants may be edited for brevity or clarity, to
the extent such a thing is possible. If you�ve got a rant you�d
like to share, send it to pscplady@aol.com with 'possible rant'
in the subject line of your letter.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Coming Up This Week!

Catch a number of great stories this week on the ParaScope web
and AOL sites, including daily updates to our Conspiracy
Newsline and Daily Dose features. Among the articles you'll want
to check out:


Fortean Slips: "Deep Space Slips" Special Edition!

Outer Space Underwear Overload: The greatest danger facing
astronauts isn't G- forces or malfunctioning oxygen tanks --
it's their dirty underwear.

In the Oily Days of Evolution: What does the geological origin
of petroleum have to do with the biological origin of life on
Earth? And is it possible that oil will prove that
extraterrestrial life exists?

Stonehenge's Asteroid Defense Initiative: An astronomer claims
to have discovered the true purpose of Stonehenge -- to serve as
an early-warning system for asteroids and meteors on a collision
course with Earth!

-----------

Subliminal CIA?

In 1958, the American public faced a frightening question: could
subliminal messages be used to influence the unsuspecting? The
anecdotal evidence seemed to confirm the Big Brotherish power of
subliminals. Naturally, the CIA checked it out. Dossier revisits
the dawn of the mind wars, with an updated special report --
complete with documentation -- that unveils the secret story of
the agency's investigation of hidden persuasion.

-----------

Kidding Gullible Believers: The Truth Behind the "KGB UFO Files"

Hollywood loves sequels, so it shouldn't be surprising, after
the high-ratings hoopla surrounding the Ray Santilli "alien
autopsy" footage a couple of years ago, that a new Ufological
blockbuster was recently unleashed. On September 13, cable
network TNT broadcast "The Secret KGB UFO Files," a slick and
entertaining  program hosted by Roger Moore. And while this
program featured some interesting Soviet Air Force gun camera
footage, the bulk of it was spent in an excruciating examination
of yet another "UFO crash/alien autopsy" farce. J. Antonio
Huneeus, who was interviewed for the program, shares his
authentic views of this bogus footage, and explains how his
on-camera comments were edited to give the appearance that he
believed the footage was real, when he in fact told interviewers
that he had no basis for making such a determination one way or
the other.

-----------

UFO Cautionary Tales #6:
The Horror of the Heights

It's become commonplace to claim that Hollywood science fiction
films and TV shows about aliens are all part of an enormous
sub-rosa plot to gradually indoctrinate the world to the coming
of extraterrestrials. Does Steven Spielberg need the MJ-12 to
give him story ideas? Was Gene Roddenberry in the pay of the
MIB? Such speculation is entertaining, but science fiction
writers are perfectly capable of creatively exploring fictional
alien worlds without the help of government psywar experts. As a
special holiday gift to our readers, ParaScope presents Sir
Arthur Conan Doyle's "The Horror of the Heights," a fantastic
science fiction thriller about an "aerial jungle" above 30,000
feet inhabited by gigantic, menacing creatures. Doyle's
fictional vision presaged early UFO theories which asserted that
the unknown objects populating our skies were actually
ultra-high altitude (or outer space) animals, lured down to the
"depths" of the atmosphere by our noisy warfare and atomic
explosions. Paul B. Thompson's introduction sets the backdrop
for this classic tale.

-----------

Conspiracy Newsline
http://www.parascope.com/articles/cnews

All I want for Christmas is a New World Order! New York City
police commissioner wants DNA sample seized with every arrest,
claiming "the innocent have nothing to fear"; Monsanto Co. wants
to seize farmer's crops for growing genetically-altered canola
without a license; farmers in India burn illegally- grown
genetically-altered crops to protest Monsanto's efforts to take
control of their agricultural markets; lots more news.

-----------

UFO Roundup

Ski lodge camera records daylight disc flyby in Pacific
Northwest; glowing fireball seen by hundreds in Georgia; flap of
sightings reported in Pennsylvania; Mars climate orbiter heads
for deep space; lots more news & sighting reports.


...All this, and much, much more!


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   Dec > Dec 31

                        Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 02:28:00 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:03:07 -0500
Subject: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

[http://ww2.broadcast.com/artbell/archive98.html#dec98 --ebk]

Art Bell and Richard Hoagland cut me off at 2:04am MST ON
12-31-1998 when I asked Art to ask me questions from Richard
since Richard was incoherent and would not ask me any more
questions.

They would not answer their charges or their own questions.

I had agreed with everything they said.

I had agreed with all charges made.

I had pointed out that Hoagland was fine. His data is
a lie.

I had tried to begin my challenge of the Hogland's data which is
a lie.

They cut me off.

Please post far and wide please. Everywhere.

These men are somehow part of a disinformation campaign to keep
the truth from getting out in normal, real, science based
fashion. Both are catagorical liars and charlatans and I have
contacted the legal councils required in such a case. Art Bell
would not Richard Hoagland asked me questions.


-- Robert A.M. Stephens
Contractor, NASA
Shuttle Documentation Program
KSC-PA/PIB-codeMSF/shuttle
sti3818@montana.com
406-745-3818
http://www.borderlands.com/rams/rams.htm






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   Dec > Dec 31

                      Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 02:43:55 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:10:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens


-----

Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:52:58 -0500
From: Lea H. MacDonald <inventor@kingston.net>
To: sti3818@montana.com
Subject: Very Well Done Robert!

Dear Robert,

I can't say how proud I am of you! :) Bell was reduced to having
to terminate the show in order to keep Hoaxland from being
reduced to ashes in an intellectual fire storm! You Sir, are
walking tall!

You had one in each hand, and wouldn't let them off the mat! Oh,
what a glorious night! _Never_ has a stronger chord been struck
for truth in this arena! I had waited for days to hear this and
was _not_ disappointed!

You exposed the closed minded and cliquish nature of Bell and
his cabal!

Know this;  There are critical thinkers out here who respect you
deeply, and respect your integrity.

If Bell's show was newpaper, I would not use it to wrap fish!

_Very_well_done_!! :))

Very, Very Best Regards,

Lea MacDonald.





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   Dec > Dec 31

                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:42:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:18:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:44:25 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:03:48 -0800
>>From: Kal Korff <KalKorff@KalKorff.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>Hic! Excuse me, please.

What did everyone expect from the KKK-BK duo, a W5 on UFOs?

Come on everybody, we got exactly what we all supposed we were
gonna get: a cheap show shooting in the dark - and missing the
mark by a mile or two - with no educative intent and aimed at an
audience with the IQ equal to half the sum of the IQs of the
KKKBK.

Who's expecting to find the Third Secret of Fatima in a box
Cracker Jack?







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   Dec > Dec 31

                            Info on '92 Sighting

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:45:10 +0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:21:14 -0500
Subject: Info on '92 Sighting


Hi there all,

I was hoping that someone might be able to help me with some
information concerning a sighting which occurred in 1992. All
the information I have follows -

The sighting occurred in the afternoon of the 21st of February
1992, in the suburb of Endevour (?) Hills, Melbourne, Victoria.
Australia. An elderly couple taking home videos in their back
yard managed to shoot some extremely good quality footage of a
UFO, silvery white in colour, reported as of the common UFO
shape.

A few days later on the 27th the UFO returned, of which they
also managed to get footage. This sighting was supposedly
investigated by a John Ocatel (?) from Phenomena Research,
Australia.

I have not been able to find the results of his analysis and was
hoping someone on the list may have heard about it. It is
supposed to be an excellent case of a true UFO (not necessarily
alien tho)

Thank you in advance, and a Happy New Year to everyone.

Sharon K.





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   Dec > Dec 31

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:59:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:24:03 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


Regarding the FOX 'Hoax Special' program...

To recap:

1) The 'tent footage', was the first film to be shown and Reg
Presley saw at least part of this sometime between December 1994
and January 1995. According to Philip Mantle, he saw the entire
unreleased 'first autopsy' on 28th April 1995 and the 'second
autopsy' was then shown to an invited audience at the Museum of
London on 5 May 1995.

The 'debris footage' appeared circa June 1995 and via the
distinctive "I-beams with 'hieroglyphics'' was the only direct
film connection to the 'Roswell' story.


2) Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 21:35:16 -0400
From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Subject: "Tent Footage" and "First Autopsy" Stills
To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>

With the kind assistance of a friend in Italy, I have been able
to acquire a copy of the recently released video "Autopsie Di
Alieni?" (Volume Duo).

This features the "tent footage" which Ray Santilli and Co. have
never previously released. I'm not sure if this release has been
sanctioned by them and it's of no relevance.

Part of the footage had also previously been "pirated" on a
video called "penetrating the web 2", released in the UK.


The footage on "penetrating the web 2" is brief, lasting for 1
minute and 37 seconds.

The new release runs for 5 minutes and 35 seconds.

And from what I can make out, they're different, both being part
of a sequence which runs for 7 minutes and 12 seconds.

The videos originally given by Ray Santilli to Colin Andrews and
Philip Mantle were apparently some 7 minutes in length. Both
these videos conceivably contain all of that same footage.

Why the pirated extract is missing from the new release, and
vice-versa, I don't know.


The new footage has slightly better contrast, but is still
murky. The entire film seems to consist of material being cut
from what purports to be a body, lying underneath a white sheet
on a table. It's filmed in a dark environment, with a lamp
suspended over the table.

The two people performing the procedures are at the far side of
the table. They are wearing white coats and although not
disguised, are not identifiable in these copies.

The person furthest from the camera is cutting the material and
hands it to the other person standing next to them. This second
person, who seems to be female, examines the material, sometimes
holding it up to the lamp, and then turns around to place it in
an unseen location at around ground level. As she turns around
and bends down, we can see that the white coat is full length.

And that's really all there is to it.

[...]

There are no obvious breaks in filming and the camera is steady,
presumably tripod mounted.
[End]


So far as Robert Kiviat and FOX having been aware of the 'tent
footage', on 11 August 1995, Don Ecker commented on this film,
writing to the CompuServe MUFON forum that, "According to Kiviat
at FOX, Santilli had a much better sequence available but Kiviat
got a very poor copy. He said that failing to get a better copy,
he will try to enhance it".

Apparently, the copy Kiviat was provided with, by Ray Santilli,
had the faces 'blacked out'.


During October 1995, Bob shell further confirmed on the forum:

"Thanks to an anonymous benefactor I have received a copy of the
tent footage.  This is the same tent footage supplied to Bob
Kiviat and others, and consists of a two-minute loop repeated
several times.

[...]

To me the most interesting point about the whole thing is that
the faces of the two people behind the table appear to have been
artificially darkened with black blobs which completely hide
their features. This is a video trick, not something which could
have been done in the original film.  The light from the lamp
should be lighting their faces, but the faces are completely
darkened.  I don't like the look of this at all, particularly
since the later parts of the film in which faces are said to be
clearly visible, are not here.

I find all of this disturbing and suspicious...". [End]


In his recent statement Ray Santilli now claims he knew this
film was a "practical joke" played on him:

"I returned to the States later to collect the main film and
showed the "Tent Footage" on VHS to the cameraman.

At this point he stated that he did not remember either the
image being portrayed or the style in which it had been filmed.
I was concerned but continued to collect the remaining film and
returned to the United Kingdom.

Upon my return I contacted the studio in Milton Keynes to find
out more about the images from the "Tent Footage".  To my
surprise Andy (my friend and owner of the studio) admitted to
playing a joke on me. They were unable to retrieve anything of
consequence from the film therefore he staged a spoof never
thinking that I would want to use it. As a result part of the
film (Tent Footage) returned was hoaxed by him as a practical
Joke".


To further recap:

During September 1995, in a posting to CompuServe's MUFON forum,
Bob Shell wrote:

"The tent footage, shot at the crash site under light from
emergency lanterns, shows technicians cutting the "space suit"
off one of the bodies because, to quote the cameraman, it was
holding in heat and hastening decomposition.  The fabric was
very tough, and they eventually had to use sheet metal cutters
to cut it".

How could the 'cameraman' - presumably Ray Santilli 'passing on'
the message - confirm this if it's now claimed the 'cameraman'
didn't recognise the 'tent footage' and by September of 1995,
Ray knew that film was a joke?


On 4 January 1996, Bob also wrote to the forum:

"Ray said to me that the complete tent footage was contained
within the "junk reel" when I was in his office in October.  He
motioned with his hands to indicate the diameter of the reel.
He also mentioned at that time about the football game, family
stuff, and other unidentifiable footage included in this reel".

By this time, although it must have been long apparent that the
'tent footage' was a joke, apparently Ray was still maintaining
that the "complete tent footage" was part of a previously
mentioned, alleged 'junk reel' of 16mm film.


Even later, on 9 April 1996, Bob, in response to my queries re
his verification that some film samples were authentic 1947 film
stock, replied on the forum:

James,

That statement was made when I still thought this was camera
original film.

Since it is not, but a release print, this does not apply.
Original film with single perf or double perf can be copied onto
single perf print film, so this does not tell us what the
perforation of the original was.  I have no reason to doubt that
the autopsy sequences were shot with a Bell & Howell Filmo 70 as
stated.

On the other hand, the "tent" footage and debris footage were
probably shot with another type of camera.  The tent footage in
particular has long unbroken segments which could not be shot
with a spring wind camera.  This was undoubtedly filmed with an
electrically driven camera.  There was an add-on electric motor
for the Filmo 70, but it was so big and heavy that it was suited
only for tripod use.  Both the tent footage and debris footage
were filmed on a tripod, so this could have been used. [End]


Given that Ray Santilli now states he knew at an early stage
that the 'tent footage' was a joke, perhaps Bob Shell can
confirm the obvious deduction that he was never informed.


Similarly, Philip Mantle stated he would publicly reveal the
'tent footage' during his BUFORA conference lecture at the
University of Northumbria on 27 January 1996, did show it at the
April 1996 Fortean Times 'Unconvention' and it was also intended
to be shown by Philip at the Greensboro MUFON conference in the
summer of 1996, a full year after it was supposedly acknowledged
to be a practical joke.

Again, can we surmise that Philip was never told by Ray Santilli
that this film was a joke?


It's not so much compounding Ray Santilli's failure to
communicate his only recently claimed knowledge that he knew the
tent footage was a joke played on him, the repercussions now go
beyond that. For example, answering criticisms re the late
delivery of 'Roswell: The Footage' videos ordered from Ray's
company, Bob Shell responded on the CompuServe MUFON forum in
September 1995:

"I'm assured that the delay was only because Ray was trying his
best to get permission to include the first autopsy and the rest
of the tent scene. These negotiations apparently were not
successful".

Later, during October 1995, he added:

"This morning I asked about the absence of the tent footage from
the video. I am told this was just loose in the box and that the
cameraman now says he can't recall what this is or when and
where he shot it. Since I have not seen it, I can't comment, but
I was told that this may not be an alien in he photo, but simply
an injured serviceman".

Patently known to Ray Santilli that it was neither an 'alien' or
an 'injured serviceman', why was Bob apparently still being led
to believe that was a possibility, when it was already known the
footage was solely in jest?


Also apparently 'uninformed' was Michael Hesemann, who during
October 1995 replied to my correspondence on the CompuServe
MUFON forum:

Dear James,

I saw the tent footage many times and just the speed of the
movements and also the sharpness of the images indicates it was
shot with a 16 mm camera and not with video. The only reason why
Ray doesn't like it is that it is so bloody dark (dimly lit) and
looks pathetically bad. I personally think it shows the being
when the medics try to remove its spacesuit. A tent in the
desert at night... with no electricity, that's why it is so
dark. But all these sceptics will say again: Look, they have
something to hide, looks, why is it so bad..".


>From my own discussions with Ray Santilli, there are also a
number of occasions when I raised the subject of the 'tent
footage' and long after it is now claimed he knew it was bogus,
Ray  was still indicating otherwise.


For information, one of the most informative insights into the
'tent footage' came from an interview which Rebecca Schatte [RS]
conducted with Philip Mantle [PM] in late 1995/early 1996:

RS: On the so called "tent footage", how long is the video that
you have?

PM: Well, I haven't timed it precisely but it is something like
7 or 8 minutes or thereabouts and it is like the other material
that has been released. It is black and white, no sound,
although I must add that the copy that I have must be a fourth
or fifth generation copy. I have seen a first generation copy,
shown to me by Ray Santilli himself and it is much clearer and I
will make that point before I show the film. The camera, for
example remained in a fixed position, in the corner of the room
or tent or whatever it is. We have nicknamed it a tent--it could
be a barn or shed or some kind of outbuilding.

We call it the "tent footage". There are no close-ups. There are
no breaks in the film - it starts and then it finishes and
that's it.

RS: You say it is 7 or 8 minutes, does that make-up the entirety
of the so-called tent footage that Ray Santilli has in his
possession that you are aware of?

PM: I couldn't tell you, but as far as I am aware of Ray has two
pieces of tent footage, one of which is on celluloid, it is on
16mm film, the other of which is on video. During the course of
our original conversations, Ray informed me that the cameraman
had kept some of the film for himself, only a very, very small
amount and I assume it is this segment that Ray has captured on
to video and it is that section which I have. So Ray may have
another minute or a couple of minutes in length but I will be
showing everything that I have.

RS: Now, the segment that you have, you say that you think Ray
transferred it to video...

PM: It could be Ray that transferred it to video or even the
original cameraman who then passed it on to Ray himself.

RS: It was my understanding that the tent footage was somewhat
longer...

PM: I haven't timed it--I think I did originally, but I just
can't remember the timing of it. It could be slightly longer
than that, yes.

RS: Phil, have you seen in a film canister, the presumed
celluloid copy of the tent footage, with your own eyes or were
you just told that he has it?

PM: No, I have seen it myself.

RS: O.K., have you held it up to the light, have you seen a body
or frames that look real?

PM: No, I haven't seen the one that's got the autopsy on it, but
I have seen the film that has the tent scene and also at the
same time, I removed, figuratively, I didn't cut it off, and I
noted the edge code, because Ray Santilli made a great deal
about the edge codes, so I noted it on the film and I drew it
myself and it was the proper edge code.

RS: It is my understanding that the tent footage does show a
body, is that correct?

PM: It does indeed. Do you want me to describe what it shows?

RS: Yes, but please answer this first; when you looked at the
celluloid film and you noted that it had the proper edge code
did you hold any portion of it up to the light in order to
determine that it had frames that contained the body on that
film?

PM: No, no I did not.

RS: Thanks. Now, please tell us what is on the film.

PM: The body of a creature, a being on a table of some kind. It
is partially covered by a white sheet or a white blanket. The
feet are protruding, the hands are and so is the head and you
can't count the number of fingers and the toes but the head you
can clearly make out the large black eyes. Behind the table that
this creature is on are two men in white coats who do not have
any masks or coverings on their face and in the foreground is a
man with his back to the camera who appears to be wearing dark
clothing, like a trenchcoat or something of that nature. What
they are actually doing is open to question. Some people have
suggested that they are taking tissue samples - they do have a
knife in their hands - you can see the knife glint in the light.
Some people have suggested that they may even be administering a
field dressing or a bandage of some kind, but to me it looks
like tissue because it pans down at one point and they examine
it under the light and so on. You don't actually see them doing
any of the cutting or removing anything at all. And it goes on
for the full length of this piece of film and then it finishes.

RS: Would you say that on this film the faces of the people
facing the camera are clear enough that they can be identified?

PM: Absolutely, if the original was released. Bear in mind that
this was the first piece of film that Ray Santilli showed to me
before the autopsy had been shown and so on. And it was on that
evidence that I tried to persuade Ray Santilli to speak at our
conference last August, which he eventually did. If I thought to
myself, "fake or genuine", I had no idea and I still don't, but
there is a slim chance that somebody, somewhere would be able to
recognize the faces and on my copy, which I said is several
generations old, the faces aren't all that clear, but on the
original material Ray Santilli has you can clearly make out
there faces and I'm sure if it was released, round the world, in
whatever format, there is a remote possibility that could be
identified. The man with his back to the camera, you don't ever
see his face, so therefore there is no possibility of that, but
the other two people most definitely.

RS: There was approximately two minutes or so of tent footage
sold to broadcasters when they purchased the other rights to the
film. It was never shown because it was in too poor of
condition, but on a videotape, that is obviously is a bootleg
that Stanton Friedman and Chuck Harder in the US are selling,
there is footage like you describe; however, there appears to be
black blobs that have been superimposed over the heads of the
people. Your tape does not have these blobs?

PM: Not at all. You can see the faces of the people. As I
pointed out, on the copy that Ray Santilli has it is... you can
make them out even clearer, very clear indeed. It is very poor
quality, I mean it looks like it is out of, uhm a gas lamp is
illuminating it or a very low watt lamp of some kind that is
perhaps generated by a gas generator outside or a petrol
generator or whatever. It is poor illuminated. You have to
remember this--it is not like the other material that has been
released. But it is clear enough to make out their faces, no
question about that.

RS: This clearer version that Ray Santilli showed you, was that
what he showed you first or how did you come about seeing the
clear footage?

PM: Yes, he showed it to me and I also saw it many, many months
later when were at a meeting with Union Pictures in London. They
made the Roswell Incident documentary here for Channel 4 and we
met with them and the commissioning editors of Channel 4 with
Ray Santilli and a colleague of his called Chris Cary. They
showed the autopsy first and everybody watched it intently and
then Ray showed them the tent footage and because it was not
graphic in detail, everybody just ignored it, but I watched it
yet again. To me it is more important than the autopsy because
you can see the people's faces, but a lot of people seemed to
have missed the point. [End]



Ray Santilli's verdict on the FOX 'expose', which as I
'psychicly predicted' wouldn't come close to solving the many
questions about the central and radically superior 'alien
autopsy' footage:

"The person that said I paid him for the tent footage is someone
I have never met or have no knowledge of".

"The Alien Autopsy film is genuine and will be untouchable as
long as I say so!".


Although not exactly 'untouchable' in the light of Theresa
Carlson's epic image analysis, which does provide tangible
evidence of a SFX hoax and remains unanswered, the FOX 'expose'
doesn't seem to have made any imprint on an explanation for both
'autopsy' films.

As I said to Kal Korff, "maybe FOX have somehow identified one
of the actors from the 'alien autopsy' itself. I would not only
be most surprised if they have, I would - foolishly or otherwise
- be confident they haven't".


Still many more questions than answers.


James.





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1998 >
   Dec > Dec 31

                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:18:14 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:47:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:21:29 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 06:42:30 -0800 (PST)
>>From: "Roger R. Prokic" <rprokic@earthlink.net>
>>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>By what standards do you judge the Meier case as a hoax?

>How much investigatin have you done into it? Have you talked to
>any of the players? Meier? He is sometimes available, I am told
>on his own website for Email and sometimes live type chats.
>Have you talked to Jim Dilatossa? <sp>? Wendelle Stevens? Did
>you talk to Marcele Vogel when he was alive and ask him
>directly about the "metal samples" he examined for Meire of
>Pleadiean material? Have you read Wendelle Steven's
>"Preliminary Investigation" of the Meier Case? What about the
>"Suplimentary Investigation?" Both works go into indepth
>information from "on sight" investigation with Meier over a
>period of five years.

>Have you view the Genesis 11, Trilogy, of video tapes on the
>interviews with Meier, Lee and Brit Elders, Wendelle Stevens,
>the Japaneese film team which came and analyzed the Meier film
>and traveled to the locations where the pictures and films were
>made?

>Have you done any of this??? If so, I am amazed that you can simply
>throw off the many amazing facts, which Mr. Kal Korff ignores, so
>easily...

>What type of scientist are you Roger? Do you put this kind of
>effort into the Mars Program???

>I cannot say completely that the Meier case is authentic...for
>one reason....I was not there. I have not been to
>Switzerland...I only got a far as France...the group I was
>traveling with, frowned on me leaving the group to go to
>Switzerland...

>I did not see the things Meier claims to have seen. I have delt
>with some unscrupulous Americans, who claimed to have seen Meier
>at his home. I have received a respectful reply from the Meier
>Group, inviting me to stop by, preferably on a Sunday afternoon,
>when Billy was not so occupied, if I was ever in the region. I
>would really be interested in _your_ reasoning in the Meier
>case. Why are you so ardently opposed to the possibility of it
>being or having been at one time Authentic?

Who the hell are you to question my scientific/research
approach?!! That is quite rude of you. In fact, as venomous as
some folks here believe Kal to be.

You take such a position againt me for supporting Kal in
revealing Meier as a fraud, then in the same message you say I
haven't this, I haven't that regarding your own research of
Meier. You say you "cannot say completely that the Meier case
is authentic". Come on Mike, either you believe or you don't!
Take a position! Until then, don't question other people's
"opinions" of Meier.

Just to clarify my "opinion" -- note I never once said I did
research and know for a fact. I believe Meier a hoax because:

1. Many sources believe his UFO shots appear to be done using a
model of some sort.

2. Meier has a "cult-like" following - whether this is his
intention or not

3. He claims to channel with these Pleidians that come to visit
him in his model UFO's.

4. No scientific data ever has shown the Pleides to have the
possibility to be life-sustaining.

Just my opinion.

What's yours?



Roger R. Prokic
Telecom Design Lead
Mars Surveyor Program
Lockheed Martin Astronautics
Denver, Colorado USA





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                      Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 06:38:11 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:00:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens


Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 06:32:17 +0000
From: "Robert A. M. Stephens" <sti3818@montana.com>
To: ArtBell@aol.com
Subject: Re: cut Robert off

ArtBell@aol.com wrote:

>My God man!, you did not make sense. You totally contradicted
>yourself. You did NOT discuss the real issues. What the hell
>happened to you? I have had THOUSANDS of e-mails saying
>something VERY different.

>                             Art

-------------------------------
(From Robert)

One more time.

What you read in the beginning of the show is the issue.

I was virtually lucid. Fact. Had you moderated I would have
'bailed' Richard out the same time as making him defend his
data. I would have been good for your protocol. You took sides
and you erred. Now,  I believe you will reap that whirlwind.

To promote NOAA's fouled up nexrad firmware without even an
explanation or link or data of OLD NOAA postings which are not
nexrad (next generation) is stupid. Its not science or anything
else. That was the issue. To then base,  on glitched NOAA
firmware, DoD intent of 'some evil' motion at play then takes
the first claim up to insanity at worst, selective irrationality
at best.  Asked Peter to send the last mail I sent him before
the show and that I asked Peter to resend to Richard if he had a
way to get in touch with Richard.


Richard
---------

Has never ever done anything whatsoever to hurt me or write me
or in any way to assault or attack me in any fashion. Peter
Gersten did, and I offered to pay him to use me. Peter changed.

Richard is probably quite serious about the question that vexes
us all. My next thing I was going to say on air was that
Hoagland is one of the few people who offers the time he does
and not one time ever does he try to screw people by charging
money for his work like others. That speaks for Richard Hoagland
quite strongly for character. Period!


Richard Hoagland Data
------------------------------

1.  His data is flawed I will verify this claim is any venue in
any court on Earth, if he so wishes.

2.  His data against NASA on lies is pathological with intent to
do harm to people (like me) who are innocent. NASA can't sue. I
can. And why I will never work civil service ever! I am free to
run 'me' without having to answer to a bunch of government
non-sense.

3.  My mails I quoted (of people I haven't a clue who they are)
are fact by those that have written them. I have them. I have
resent them and I ask why Hoagland would propose these things.


Thus:
--------

1.  Asteroid on Hawaii. Where is this data from? That is not a
bad question.

2.  nuke Washington. Where is this data from? That is not a bad
question.

3.  19.5 and 33. False claims. Where is this data from? That is
not a bad question.

4.  Turret peak. Had a non 'culture' team mate I got to go up
there the whole day and night (ex-seal friend). No nothing up
there. Thus, where is this data from? That is not a bad
question.

5.  Hiding news of new planet in solar system. No. Where is this
data from. That is not a bad question.

6.  NASA lies. Where is this data from? That is not a bad
question. NASA has lied one time. I was going to reveal that.

Summation
---------------

I was not going to _hurt_ Richard!

I was going to _question_ his data in hard-fashion, the way I
have to defend me when I make statements on shuttle hardware
failure and have to defend myself with facts and validity -
_that_ is all!

Richard as a person is not the issue. His pathos in stating data
that is false and can be proven as such, is.


What's the Point then Robert?
-----------------------------------

Get Richard, like Peter, using his civilian experience, to then
head in the right direction for what in the world is happening
to us. Those sources are, to begin, the NRO and OIA.


ME
----

I have been invited to appear on 5 shows since you cut me off.
From light shows like Earth Changes to PBS. I will divulge
exactly what was done to me by you on these shows.

It was in error.

Richard's data is misguided and headed off into areas that are
groundless. Re-read your man's anonymous mail, if it is real,
and study what he portends. That is the issue.

I am sorry you had to cut me off. If your supporters endorse
this behavior then more power to you and your show's format. My
data can be released elsewhere This culture is not my venue. I
was asked to enter. The data I have offered like NORAD/Fence is
new. The powers that be have had 80 days to tell me to cease and
desist. They have not.

I am not the enemy.

I am just as busy as Richard Hoagland. Yet, if I'm going to run
my mouth then I will post my phone and email so people can grill
me on my data. That is why I took my issues that still remain
with Hoagland on the net in open fashion, not attacking him, but
his data, since he is unreachable.


Why Attack Richard then?
--------------------------------

Because he is the loudest child. He writes outlandish letters to
NASA, NSA, DoD, etc, and then can't figure why the vice of
information is shutting down tighter. The loudest voice, then,
needs to be corrected or shut up or sent on a new mission that
is fruitful. He lost his accreditation from NASA headquarters
because he lied to NASA and he is hated at the agency for his
lies, understandably. Facts, Art. Call 'em!

Again, sorry you had to cut me off. Don't ever try and twist
your statement to incriminate me or other guests again. Stupid.
It was you that got caught in your own bullshit since you didn't
even know how contracting works and neither did all knowing
Hoagland. Think! You guys screwed yourselves. Fine.

I will now let the culture, your followers, judge how incoherent
I am. We will see how many other 'shows' cut me off too. None
have so far. Just you.



The public will surely judge now. 20 million people. Think.


Behold.






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                      Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:20:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:08:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens


>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 02:28:00 +0000
>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>,
>Subject: They Cut Off Robert!

>[http://ww2.broadcast.com/artbell/archive98.html#dec98 --ebk]

>Art Bell and Richard Hoagland cut me off at 2:04am MST ON
>12-31-1998 when I asked Art to ask me questions from Richard
>since Richard was incoherent and would not ask me any more
>questions.

>They would not answer their charges or their own questions.

>I had agreed with everything they said.

>I had agreed with all charges made.

>I had pointed out that Hoagland was fine. His data is
>a lie.

>I had tried to begin my challenge of the Hogland's data which is
>a lie.

>They cut me off.

>Please post far and wide please. Everywhere.

>These men are somehow part of a disinformation campaign to keep
>the truth from getting out in normal, real, science based
>fashion. Both are catagorical liars and charlatans and I have
>contacted the legal councils required in such a case. Art Bell
>would not Richard Hoagland asked me questions.

>-- Robert A.M. Stephens

I heard the program sir -- I think that this is what occurs when
you open your mouth, insert your foot, and then attempt to echo
internationally. I think you got more civility than you deserve.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com


--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 28 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.






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   Dec > Dec 31

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:57:25 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:14:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>From: Geri & Alfred Webre <Ecotoday@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:46:17 EST
>Fwd Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:36:50 -0500
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

>We find that gratuitous sarcasm and dissing tend to corrode the
>atmosphere of discussion about UFO posts that may have a
>'Colonel' (sic) of insight here and there.

>Indeed cute dissing may have more long-range deleterious impacts
>of a discussion list than the original perceived
>mis-information, and we would like to request that members
>restrain their impulses to be stand-up comedians when dealing
>with important UFO issues, and rise above the ad hominem.

>From what we understand, Stephens (for whom we hold no brief)
>himself admits to being in the UFO field for only 70 days or so.
>He deserves some slack. Heads up critique, but not reckless
>political gossip.  He is, after all, from a war-strategy
>background, and may have something valuable to contribute, at
>least to our thought processes.

>One of his observations seemed to us to carry a great
>deal of insight. Not that it is proof of any particular set of
>facts.  But the statement does seem to frame the issues in ways
>that we lawyers and psychologists find useful.

>What does the List think?

Geri and Alfred,

I can't speak for the rest of the List. However, I agree that
snipes and jabs at someone's character is no subsubstitution for
actual debate. If you check the archives, you'll find that I
have made a point of bringing that to the attention of anyone
that would listen over and over again. This is not a reflection
of the list that ebk puts together, but rather, par for the
course when dealing with something that some people find a
passionate topic.

On the other hand, some self-proclaimed "experts" put themselves
in a vulnerable position when the "facts" they present have no
evidence to back them up and, worse, said expert disses others
on the list for their apparant ignorance of unfounded and/or
obscure and unsupportable information.

In the case of Mr. Stephens, there is some conjecture on the
part of several list members as to whether he has the background
he says he has. Frankly, I do not know enough about the subject
in question to make a judgement one way or the other. But, in
reality, that is the focal point of the whole problem. If
someone comes along and makes claims in a scholarly manner, do
we give them the benifit of the doubt because of the form and
style in which they present their theories?

Snake oil salesmen are the smoothest talkers around.

Sometimes the most effective way, in my opinion, to deal with a
fake is to call his bluff early on. This is not meant to be
unduely argumentative. But the fastest way to find out if
someone knows what they are talking about is to be the devil's
advocate; to take a counter position. I think the best of the
list members do take that approach, but they do so from a
"friendly fire" position.

As far as being a comedian; sorry, but by nature I find illogic
is about the funniest thing I know of. Unfortunately, when you
are dealing with a subject such as UFOs, for which no known
logic really applies, then it is absolute open season on almost
anything that someone comes up with, including my own musings.
Of course, that also means there is great anticipation and
pleasure when someone contributes really worthwhile information
that doesn't waste everyone's time.

Unfortunately, this happens far too little, or worse, we find
out that the information is bogus after eating up mucho
bandwidth and many a keystroke in response time.

Take care and Happy New Year,

Roger Evans






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                             Happy New Year 1999

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 00:18:07 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:20:17 -0500
Subject: Happy New Year 1999


The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
tkbnetw@fan.net.au

URL http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw
*************************************************************
UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number
                       1800 77 22 88 Free Call
*************************************************************

Happy New Year from The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia.

All keep safe and a warm and wonderful 1999

From Diane Harrison and the crew ;>)

From The Land Down Under:>)






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                      Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:32:27 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 13:11:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens


>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 02:43:55 +0000
>From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: [Fwd: Very Well Done Robert!]

>-----

>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:52:58 -0500
>From: Lea H. MacDonald <inventor@kingston.net>
>To: sti3818@montana.com
>Subject: Very Well Done Robert!

>Dear Robert,

>I can't say how proud I am of you! :) Bell was reduced to having
>to terminate the show in order to keep Hoaxland from being
>reduced to ashes in an intellectual fire storm! You Sir, are
>walking tall!


<snip>

>_Very_well_done_!! :))

>Very, Very Best Regards,

>Lea MacDonald.


With all respect ma'am, I don't think we listened to the same
show.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 28 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.